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RECORD OF E VIDEN CE TAKEN AT VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA, BY THE COMMISSIONERS, UNDER THE CONVENTION OF FEBRUARY 8. 1896, BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND THE UNITED STATES. VOL. I. (Pages 1-1008 incl.) S/Lutiii^^r TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ist Session. Xovfiiilier i';5. Is'.m;. |)|». 1 -]•_'. Comiiiissinii (U'claivd loiiiially 'tiM'iicd. AmnmiicL'iiiont of appoiiitineiits. Ajipt'anuia'S of couiistl. Subniissiou of proposal 1 nilt's. Discussion tluMeoii. 2iiti. p. ir> Antlioiization for receivinj; and lilinj; elaims between sessions. 4tli Session NoveuiUer _7, ls!»H. pj). 15-1»!. Motion and order foi- taking deposition of Andrew D. Laing before Sjtecial Examinei'. r.tli Session. November as. Isyd. jip. l»i-37. Discussion ctmcerning rules. Moti. Ex- hibits Nos. 3 (U. S.) and 27 (G. B.) marked in evdence. C E. Kaynor examined. 18th Session. December 15, 18J)«. pp. 497-553. C E. Raynor's examination resumed. Discussion. C. E. Raynor further examined. E r. I'.liuer examined. Dis- cussion. Examination continueo 19th Session. December U>, 1890. pp. 553-602. Discussion. E. P. Miner's examination resumed. Dis- cussion. E. C Baker and Wm. Munsie examined. Ex- hibit No. 4 (U. S.) marked in evidence. Discussion. E. P. Miner's examination resumed. Discussion. Case of Great Britain in rebuttal opened. D. Russell examined. Dis- cussion. W. D. Byers examined. Further testimony of this witness was taken at this Session with reference to Claim No. 14 (see pp. 776-781). 20th Session. December 17, 1896. pp. 603-604. W. E. Baker was examined. Testimony of W. E. Baker (pp. 716-730 and 781-783) and Laughlin McLean (pp. 730- 746) and Wm. Cox (pp. 754-759) was taken with reierence to subsequent claims. . . TABLK OV C'OSTKNTS. Ill rilst Si'ssioii. Dt>««'iiilu'r IS, |m«I. pp. (Ut4 tU3. W. T. Hrn^rji exaiiijiird. Tt-stiiiiDiiv «if C. N. Vox, Win. Cox (pp. T.V.t 7(> 774), (. A. Liiinlbi'r^; (pp. 7s;i wUj was taken with retfrcnco to suhsei/in'iit vlaitiis. •jL'nil Sf,s<'«yife»«/ claims. I'Urd Session. Dt'cenilu'r :il, |H!K!, pp. (i.'JI ♦!"((. .James Manner's examiiialion resumed. .M. M. Serault was examinerl in rebuttal. T. H. Mrovvn examined. Ex- hiliits Nos. 2s an.i L'Jt ((J. H.) marked in evidence. Chas. Hackett. Victor Jucolisun and K. J. Ker examined. Alex- ander Kcppen (j»|» SL'1-S2»i) was examined with reference to snhsvtjitoit cidiiiis. L'4th Session. Deceml)er 22, IKiHI. pp. ♦;7. pp. 820-850. Discussion. Claiiti Ao. 2, " Thonitoti," lukeu up. State- ment of Claim. H. J. Cook and Walter Walkerexan)ined. H. J. Cook recalled. Orlando Warner, Wm. Turpel and John Dallas examined. A. Watson, Jr., Gustave Hansen, Louis Olsen and C. Spring examined (pp. iy41-r.>.')0). 27th Session. December 20, 18!>6. pp. 850-872. Claim No. 3, " Oiitmrd," taken up. H. J. Cook, Or- lando Warner, Samuel Sea, Alexander Watson, Jr., W. Walker and C. Snring examined. Exhibits Nos. 32 and 50 (G. B.) markea in evidence. 28th Session. December 28, 1890. pp. 872-922. 0. Spring's examination resumed. Letters from Daniel Monroe read in evidence. Exhibits Nos. 33 and 34 (G. B.) marked in evidence. M. Harkin examined. Exhibits Nos. 35, 3»)and 37 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Tiansfer of testimony from other claims made. Claim No. 3, " Onward," resumed. Case of United States opened. Exhibit No. 5 (U. S.) marked in evidence. C. E. haynor examined. C. Spring recalled Claim No. 2, " Thornton." resumed. Exhibits Nos. 38, 39, 40, 41, 42. 43, 44 and 45 (G. B.) marked in evidence. J, D. Warren examined. 29th Session. December 29, 1890. pp. 922-963. J. Andei-son examined with reference to subsequent claims. Claim No. 2, " Tliornton," resumed. J. D. War- ren examined. Inventory read in evidence. Exhibits Nos. 46 and 47 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Discussion. Exhibits Nos. 48 and 49 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Dis- cussion. IT T.\HI,i5 UK CONTKNTM. aoth St'Hsidii. Dcct'inhfr :'o, |s!». W'iiiit'ii ami .1. W. (IriUillis <'.\;iiiiiiu'(l. Kx- tiiK'ts fritii) coiicspiiiulcncc iciMi in I'vidcncf. liaiiiis i\ns. 0,7, !>«(/(/ \i> liiKrii iiji. II. J. I'dok, W. \Viilk»'it'.\uniiiu>(l. ('/dim .Vo. 'J, " Tlniniluu" rcxiiiin-il. J. Irving, J- A. TlioMisnn. (i. K. (irant inxl II. (i. I,«fwis cxaniincd. Kx- liihits No-:. .M, rii>, :,;{, ")4 and .">.'>i(i. H.) marked in evidence. iJIniiiiH Acs. (!, 7, !• (iiiil !<• irsiiiiirif. .1. A. 'I'lionison ex- amined. iUi.sv , 7, i» did/ !(• re- siiiiu'il. ('. F. (irant and \V. 'I'lni el e.xamined. 31st Session. Decendier :U. 1s!m; pp. |0(i7-In4M. CIdiiii.s Acs. ti, 7, '•> dinl jo idiitiiiiii'd. ,]. A. 'I'lioinson, S. McC. Smith and (► Warner examined. S. McC. Smith recalled, i'liiiiii Sit. 'J, " I'lioi iiloii," irmiiiu'd. A. (»iay examined. (Jtdiiiin A'ds.i\. ~, '.f 'mil \n nsiniii'il. A. (Jray examined. Discnssion. Cd.sc of I'liUvd Shitis in Ctaim A'd. ) ri'siniH'd. V. Hickev examined. C/diiii.s Aus. "J. (!, 7, \Uiidl 1(1 irsiiitd-il. (J. \V. Cavin. IT. U Lewis, U Hen- nett and L. ( Usen examined, ("orrespondence reail in ovi- dcMice. H. I'axton examined with reference to ('/a//« A'u. 26 (pp. I. ■.;{('.- I.'i4(») and Claim No. :> (pp. 17r)tl-17«ir.). :!2nd Session. January ii, ls)>7. pp. Hi4M-l(is;i. Discnssion. Claims A'os. ti, tl, 7, )• dii7, .58. .5!t, »!(), (tl, (i->, »53, r.4, «i.5, «!♦), ('.7 and (>H (G. B.) marked in evidence. Documents read in evidence. Ca.se of Untied Slides in Claim No. 1 resinned. A. McLean, C E. Raynor and C. E. Clark ex- amined. Chiims Nos. 0, 7, and 10 resinned. M. F. Keefe examined. Documents read in evidence. Di.scus- sion. J. ]). Warren examined. 34th Session. January 5, 18!>7. pp. 11.34-117.5. Claims Nos. 2, 0, 7, y and 10 resumed. J. D. Warren examined. 35th Session. January fi. 1SJ)7. pp. 117.5-1224. Claims Nos. «>, 7, 9 and 10 resumed. Exhibit No. t>9 (G. B. ) marked in evidence. J . D. Warren, W. J. Ward and C. F. Dillon examined. Discussion. Exhihits Nos. 70, 71, 72 and 73 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Documents read in evidence. Claim No. 11, ''Ada," taken vp. J. Gaudin and J. J. Gray examined. 36th Session. January 7, 18!»7. pp. 1224-1276. J. J. Gray examination continued. Accounts read in evidence. H. V. Siewerd examined. Documents read in evidence. Case of United States opened in Claim No. 11. C E. Raynor examined. Discussion. C. E. Rayuor's ex- TABI.K OF CONTKNTH. amiiintinn continiu-d Ddciinu'iits it-jMl in t'vidciici'. A. Mcl^'iiii t'XiUiiiiifd. ( 'a.v of I tiiteil Stuivs in ( 'hum,'. A'oa. 0, 7. !», 10 ii('(>. i)is(Ussi(iii Dnciiiiu'iits read in evidence. Clniiii .\i>. 4, " Fiiioniilv" tiiivn iifi. Kx- hil)it N(i. 74 ((i. H.I marked in evidence. I'. S)>riiin ex ainined. Account read in evidence. ('Iiiiiii Sn. II rv- siiiiii'il. \{. Collister examined. C/iiiiiis .\ns. '2, ft. 7, !♦ ami \i> rcsiiiiii'il. 'I'lieoddie Davie examined. Kxliiltit .\o. 7 {V. S.) marked in evidence, ('tniui .\o. 4 ii.siiiinil. C. ypriii};- and N. Moss examined. (,'u,sc nf I'liitiii .S7»//e,s ofwiii-il III Clniiii So. 4. A. McLean exainiiied. Kxliihits Nos. s and )i (Vj. S. i aixl Nos. 7."> and 7!»7. |»|i. i:i;{7 I :?"»!». Transfer of evidence. Clti'iii .\it. I'A, " Jimiiilii," tnkvn ufi. Kxliiliit No. 77 ((J. M. i marked in evidence. C. E. (Jiark examined. Kxliiliit No. 7s ((i. H.) marked in evj- deiRi'. Jtichard IJall examined. Account read in evi- dence. ('. K. Clark recalled. Kxliiliit No. 7!t ((J. B.) marked in evidence. Discussion. ;{!itli yession. January II. |s!»7. |i|). i:!;")'.! l4o(i. C/iiiin \ii. s. " Alfreil Ailniiis,'" Uthii iiji. Kxliiliit No. NMti. H. ) marked in evidence. Discussion. < )rder amend- ing |ileadiiiji;s enteied. P^xliiliits Nos. M and S-J {{i. Ji.) marked in evidence Document n-ad in evidence. .Morris Gutnian examined. Discussion. Documents read in evi- deuce. Exhibit No. in (L'. S. ) marked in evidence. Claiiii No. 20, " K'liti','' tuki'ii HI). C. Spring. Alexander Heppen and N. Moss examined. C. Spring recalled. Kxliibit No. 83 ((t. B.) marked in evidence. N. Moss recalled. Chtiin No. 12, little " Tiiiiiii/tli," taken up. Order amending pleadings entered. H. Smitli examined. 40th Session. January 12, I.s!i7. pp. 14O0-14Ui. H. Smith's examination resumed. Geo. liyrns examined. Exhihit No. M4 (G. B.) marked in evidence. H. Smith re- called. ClaiiH No. 2;{, " (J.srar and Jlaltie,'' taken up. Ex- hibits Nos. H.-> and Mt! (G. B.) marked in evidence. J. L. Penney examined. Exhibits. Nos. H7, HH, «!•, !»o. !M. '.♦2, t>3 and !t4 ((.. B.) marked in evidence. Discussion. Ex- amination continued. 41st Session. January 13, 1S!»7. pp. 1417-14r)r). Claim No. IS. " Triiimp/i," taken up. Exhibit No. Uh (G. B.) marked in evidence. Document read in evidence. E. C. Baker examined. Account read in evidence. Ex- amination continued. Extract from log read in evidence Exhibit No. 11 {[]. S.) marked in evidence. Claim No. 17, ''Minnie," taken up Exhibit No. lHi(G. B.) marked in evidence. T. Magne.sen and Victor Jacobson examined. Exhihit No. !)7 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Documents read in evidence. Claim No. is resumed. E. C. Baker recalled. J. C. Blackett examined. Exhibit No. 12 (U S.) marked in evidence. Discussion. Claim No 1)» ''Ariel," taken np. Exhibit No. !i8 (G. B.) marked in evi'- donee. S. W. Buckuam examined. 42nd Session. January !4, lsy7. pp. 14«>5-1507. S. VV. Bucknam's examination resumed. Discussion, b. W. Bucknam recalled. H. Smith and G. C. Gerow ex- VI TABLE or t'ONTKNTS. amincd. DihciiNHiun. Cluini .\n. H, " I'allifiiiiiiliiig plfailings eiitert'd. W. MuiiHie L>.\ainiiirtl. 4.11(1 S«'ssioii. January 15, IH)»7, pp. 15(17-1663. (J/niiii Nik l'4, " W'iiiiftvil" ttikvii up. StatoiiicntH by founsri. \V. ('. Cnnlson oxaniinrd. Kxtiacts froni cut- teis' lojrs. Cltu'iii .\n. i!:t ri'sinueil. DiMinnciit it'ad iiit'vi- di-nco. C/niiii .\(>. lit trsnnii'il. S. W. Mnckiiani ex- aniintMl. Kxliiliit No. I(mi i'(!. U.) iiiarknl mi <>vjdeiice. L'luiiii S(i.-i:>, " Wniiihrvi" hikiii nit. H. I'axton's testi- ninny printed. A. Hjciii' t'xaininfil. Kxliil)it No |(»l ((«. h. ) marked in cvidfiicc C/niiii A'o. Minisif I'xaniini'd Kxliil)it .NO. i:til' donci'. 14 rfsiiiin'il. Wni. S. ) Miarkt'd in cvi- pp. i:..".:'. I5sn. Discussion. Kx- ( 'Iniiiis Sns. -2, »!, 44tli Session. January hi. l,s!»7. Cluiiii St). L'4 iTsniiifil. Statt'nicnt of W. ('. Coidson. Wni. Munsif's fxiMuinaliun coiiiinut'd Kxliihits Nos. 14 ami l.">(r. s. ) marked in rvidctin' t'hiiin.n .Yo.s. •!, 7, •> tniil \i> nsiiiiiiil. II. .M, 'I'liornton ^i^d rxaiuiiuT ,ippi>iiit<'S(»-|t;2!». Clnhii .\n. i4 ri'.siiiiD'il. \\ in. Munsic rccallcil. Kxhihit No. |oj (Vt. H.I marked in evidence. K. Cariie. Jr., ex- aminerl. Document read in evidence, hiliit No Hi {['. S.I marked in evidence. 7, '.uiiiil jo ir.siiiiirif. Deposition of II. .M. Thornton, taken Jan. Itith. read in evidence, C. K. Kayiioraiid II. Noiinan examined. Chiiiii .Yo. 17 ri'.sKiiifd. \'. lacohson and A. L. Helyea examined. C/niiii.s .Vo.s. ti, 7. i» (iml pi ri'.siiiiit'd. J. I). Warren recalled. Discussion. Condition of (Mainia Nos. 14, l'4 and :.'."> considered. Pith Session, .lannary I'.i, |sii7. pp. I «•_".>- 1»{7!>. Discussion. Report of (\)nsnl Myers read in evidence. < 'til III .\o. 14 ii'sniiii'il. W . Mniisie examined. Kxhihit ? .). 17 d' S.I marked in evidence. CIniiii A'o. i':.', " lleii- ih'ttn," tiiki'ii iiji. Kxhihit No. pi:! ((J. H.i marked in evi- dence. Documents read in evidence. M. I'inckney ex- amined. Kxhihits Nos. lo4, lo."., piii. pi7 and ins (Ci. B.) marked in evidence. T. J. Flampttin, \V. Khineier and C. Doling examined. 47th Session. January l'o. I,s!i7. pp. li>7!»- 172:i Claim Xo. ±2 icniiiiril. M. Pinckney examined. Case of United States in L'lahn So. 1 ii'snmet/. M. Turner and A. Andersen examined. M. Turner recalled. VV. H. Thorn- ley examined. 4Sth Session. January lil, Isft7. pp. 17'2:i-1772. W. H. Thornley's examination continned. F. Payne and P. C. Meyer examined. Claim Xo. 22 resumed. C. Spring and W. Turpel examined. Order entered in Claim No. 18 with reference to returning Exhibit. Claim.s Nos. '22 and 24 resumed. A. L. Belyea, J. F. Fell and H. Siddail ex- amined. Exhibit No. ini> (G. B.) marked in evidence. Transfer of evidence made. Claim Xo.'24 resumed. Order amending pleadings entered. Exhibit No. llu (G. B.) marked in evidence. Documents read in evidence. C. Spring examined. Claim Xo. 5, " Black Diamond," taken up. H. Paxton's testimony printed. Claim No. 22 re- TAIU.K OK ('ONTKNTS. VII aniiifd. Kxhiltit No. I^(U■.S. iniarktd in cvideiic*'. Claim Nil- •> rr.siniiitt. C/iiiiii \i). I.">, " n/iiik' IhtniHtHit," takt-u 11/). < )\vt'ii Thoiiiiis t'X.imiiictl. ( 'Iniiii .\'n. 1 iisuhu'd. Ovvi'ii 'l"liniiia>* t'XMiniiinl. 41itli St'Hsion. .Imiiiary -'-'. I*"!*", pp. l77i'-lHiMt. Stiitt'iiH'iits liy (oiinst'l. Cliiimn .\o. r> ontl Xo. I."» rf- siinii'tl. ( »\V('ii TliiMiias cxaiiiiiH'fl. Cliiiiu .\n. I rvsniiu'd. W. [|. Tliuriili'v I'xaiiiint'd. l)i>ciisHi()n. Chiiiii So. l.'4 resiniit'il. K.vliil)it \i>. Ill lO. H. i and Nd. Il> il'. S.) niarkt'd in t-s idcnii'. Docnnn-nts read in cvidcnic. ('/tii>u .\o. \:> ii'.sniiiiil. Kxliil)its Nos. I iL'and I |:'.((i. H.iinaikcd in t'\ idt'iicc. l)is(ii:isi(Mi. Stipulation c:un(t'i ning C'lanns No. .') and No. 1 1 fll*-d. ."loHi Session. .lannarv :.':'., l>!iT. pp. |s|n-Is-.>r,. Cliiiiii .Vo. :il, " I'lillijiiidrr." Iiih'ii nit. |)isi iissiim. C'lniiii \t). I."» ri'siiiiiiul. Docinncnt read in t'vidt'iue. Cliuiii Sit. \*\," IJhi." hih'ii iiji. Discussion. |)ornnu'nts re;id in cvidfrnc kxldijits Nos. Il4((i. Ii.)and I'oiL'. S.) niai kni in cvidcnct'. Discnssion. ('laiiii So I rcsinitit!. DiMiiini'nts. Cliiiiti.s .Vo.s-. •_'. t>, 7, '.1 uml |n risnnied. Docnnn'iit. rrad in i'\ idiMKtv .Mst ScsNion. .J.nui.n V :.'.'>, |sit7. pp. |s-_>.",-isJ:>. Cldiiii Sii. I.'i resiiiiivd. DociMnents rtMcl in <'vi(li'nce. Kxhiliit Nw •1\ I IJ. S. ) in II l;cd in evidence. ( hiiiii So. 14 n-.'iiiiiicil. .Statenieii* liv coinisel. Clunii So. s rcsiiiiivd. Docnmonfs icad in 'idencn. (.'hiitii.s Nos. -2, Woinl Iti //;- sniin'il. Stalt'inent.s by ci unsi 1. Cliiiiii St). 2t!, " Sai/- Viinl L'o.sl.s." fnh'ii '>}>. Discussion concerning motion to disiniss. Kxliiliits Nos. II."., 1 bli'i. H. ) iniikedin evidence. Transfei of evideiict> and 'losing of claim. Ctoiiii So. '2'> J'oifiKilll/ o/ii'iicd. Discii.ssioii Docnment!- read in evi- dence. Cf'iiiiis .Vos. ('., 7, '.» (iitil |() lU'.snmcd. T. H. I'ooper examined. Exiiihit No. Il7i(r. B.) marked in evidence. Cloiiii So. 11 rr.sitiiipd. .J. .J. (Jiay examined. Docnment read in evidence. ."ii'nd Session. Jannaiy •2>>, lsi»7. p. |s4l'. Adjoiunincnt of iiearint*. .■);'.rd Session. Jannaiy l'7, 1S!I7. pp. I.s4:{-i,stl2. Discnssion. Chiiiii So. II ri'.stinicd. J. J. Gray ex- amined. Cfitim Sn. 2<> n'.siiiiied. Urdci' entered witli re- spect to motion to dismiss. Claim Ao. 1 resumed. Ex- hibit So. I'li ( L*. S. ) marked in evidence. Discnssion. Kef- erences to dficumeiits. Exhibits Nos. lis, ll'.t. Il'o and 121 ((i. B.) marked in evidence. Discnssioii. Claim No. 1") resiniu'd. Document read in evidence. Claim .Vo. Hi resumed. Statement by counsel. Claims Nos. <>, 7, It atid l(t resumed. J. D. Warren examined. 54th Session. January -J?', |S!t7. jjp. ls(;2-]s!Mt. Claim N^o. 1 resumed. Statement by counsel as to SKi'eed valuation of skins. Wm. Muusie "examined. Ex- hibits Nos. 2:5. 24, -T), 2it No. 122 (G. B.; marked in evidence. Discussion. Exhibit ...>. 2!> (U. S.) marked in evidence. Discussion. Claim No. 1 resumed L. Olsen examined. Order entered with respect to substitution of copies of Exhibits in Claim No. 11. Claims Nos. l^ and It! resumed. J. D. Warreu examined. Claim No. 1 resumed. T. Luhbe examined. VIII TABLE OF CONTENTS. Discussion. Examination continued. Classification of seal skins read in evidence. Claim Ao. ii2 resumed. C. Spring examined. Discussion. Claim No. 12 resumed. Exhil)it No. 1'2;5 i^ti. B.) marked in evidence. Case of United States in Claim No. 1 resumed. A. McLean and C. E. Kaynor examined. ("iSth Session. January 'i!», l«!t7. pp. 18;tl»-i}>27. Discussion. Claim No. 25 resumed. Statement by counsel. Claim No. 1 resumed: Documents read in evi- dence. B. H. T. Diake examined. Docun)ent read in evi- deuce. Discussion. Claim No. 11 resumed. Documents read in evidence. Claims Nos. s, i:, oml l(t resumed. A. R. Milne examined. Claim No. 1 resumed. Order entered denying application for commission. K. Beaven examined. Discussion. Claims Nos. 15 aud l(i re.'^umed. Agreed statement by counsel. Claim No. 1 resumed. Discussion. 5t)tb Ses.sion. January So, 1S!»7. pp. 1928-1970. Discussion. Document read in evidence. T. Lubbe examined on the part of the United States. Discussion. F. Siewetd's statetnent. G. Hansen examined on the part of Great Britain. Testimony of A. Watson, Jr , G. Han- sen, L. Olsen aud C. Spring '|)rinted. Great Britain rests in all cases. Counsel for United States make statement and rest in all cases. Creat Britain's case- in rebuttal in Claim No. 1 resumed. A. McLean examined. Discussion. Documents lead in evidence. Great Britain's ease in re- buttal ill Claims Nos. 2, ;{ and is taken vp. Discussion. Exhibit No. 125 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Great Brit- tiiii's case in rebuttal in Claims Nos 2, (i, 7, l» and 10 takeM up. Exhibit No. 124 (G. B.) marked in evidence. J. Bos- covvitz examined. 57th Session. February 1, 1S!)7. pp. I1>71-1981>. J. Boscowit/Zs examination continued. Exhibits Nos. 30 (U. S.) and 120 and 127 (G. B.) marked in evidence. Documents read in evidence. United States case in sur- rebutlal in Claim No. 2 taken up. A. McLean and C. Spring examined. Discussion. Exhibit No. 128 (G. B.) marked in evidence. 58th Session. February 2, 1897. pp. 1990-2002. Communication from the two Governments concerning Claims Nos. 5 and 11 received by the Commissioners aud filed. Agreement between counsel with regard to print- ing. Discussion. Claims Nos. (i, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 re- sumed. Document read in evidence. Claim No. 8 re- sumed. A. Frank examined. Discussion. Statements by counsel. Agreement as to transferring testimony. Ad- journment oi Commission. lO 20 Uefure the Cummitiiiioners under the Cunveutiun of February 8, ltt*J6, between Ureat Britain and tlm United States uf America, fur the Settlement of Claimti Preseuted by (Ireat Itritain AfraiuHt the United States in Virtue of the Cuuveutiou uf February 2», 18»2. At the Chambers of the LegiHlative Assembly in the City of Victoria, I'rovince of British Columbia, this Twenty-third Day of Aov- ember, in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Eiffht lluudred and Niuety-six (1896). 30 40 50 60 At tliri'4' o'ulociv in tlic aftfiuooii of ilnn dii.v, fli** Hoiioiir al>li> E^dwin Kiuv^ <'(iiiiiiiiHHi<>iiLM' on tli*' part of }I<-i' Krilannic Majesty, and tlu' llonouraldc Will'am L. Putnam. C'ouinilMsioncr uii tli<* ])ai't of tl;(> I iiitod ^^tati-M of Anu'rica. appcari'd and took tlicir s*-atH. Tilt ■r('Uj)on tlie CoinniiiSMiom'i- on tlie part of Ilt-r Majesty made the following! annoimeemeiits : .: Iiis own lielialf and on helialf and at the reipu-st of liis as^M eiate Commissioner. Tlie Conimissionei- on the jiart of Her Majesty: — Tlie sit tiiifjof the Coniinissioners iindt-i- tiie eoiiventlon of February S, 1H!I(!, for tlie settlement of elaims presented l»y (Jreat Itritnin a^'ainst the Inited Stat<'s l»y virtue of the Conven- tioii of February !'!(. \HU'2, is now open. The Commissions have been intereliaiiueably examined and found eorrect. TIk- Coiiimissioners have stveiMliy taken the oath required by the Convention. They have a])pointed as Seeretary Mr. Chandler P. .Vjider .son, of tlie City of New York. 1 'shall read the formal ap- pointment that has been made. Tlieappoii M. Dickinson, of tlie City of l»»-troit, in the State of .Miclii<;aii, for tlu- Inittnl Statc-s of America, and Hobert l.ansiiift, Ksq., of Watertown. in the State of New York, as associate counsel. And, on behalf of I Li-r .Majesty, the lion. Frederick IVters. of Charlottettiwn. ill the Province of I'rinci' Kdwards Island, Attorney (lenerai of said Province, and Frederick L. Ileiqiie, Q. C., '<»f Mont real, in the Province of Ciiiebec. as associate counsel, and Krnest Victor Itodwell, barrister, of the City of Victoria. w)ct the HiHiretarv to coiuiiiiinicate tliia cxpren- elon to the Lleutenaiit-tioveriior of the Province. Mr. Petere: — Your HonouvH unnouiM'ed that the i'oinmiH- Bion hud oflieial notii'e that certain counsel w«'re appointed on behalf of Oreat Britain. As m-nior connHel, I would like to announce that it in* <»ur desire tha^ Sir <'harles Hibbert Tupper also be associated with us as Tounsel for (Jreat Britain, he having biH'n retained especially bv people parti cularl.v interested in the nuitter. We take it that the (|ues tion of nssoi-iate counsel is a matter entirely resting with the senior counm'l. and we ther»'fore desire that Sir Charles llibbert Tupper should be associated with us as counsel. The <.'ouiniisBi(Hier on the part of tlie I'nited States: — On your own responsibility. Mr. I*«>ters? Mr. Peters: — I take the responsibility of it. The ("onimissioner on the part of the United States: — Neither Sir ('harles nor anyone else can sjteak here except for Her Majesty's Uovernnient. Mr. Peters :- -That is the ]iosition we take, that there an; only two parties before this court — the (Soverninent of thy I'uited States and the (iovernnient of (ircat Britain. The t'oiuniissioner on tlie part of the I'uited States: — Then my associate agrees with nie that Sir ('hurles llibbert Tup- l»er be recognized as assoc-iate couus«'l in behalf of Her Ma- jesty's tloverniuent, on your responsibility as senior counsel. Mr. Peters: — In reading (he list of ciiunsel. if 1 understood Justice King correctly, he read the name of Mr. Bodwell as solicitor only and agent. As a matter of fact, the instruc lion 1 have is that he is also junior couus«'l, and that is the understanding. To my own knowledge he was appointed local agent and junior counsel. The t'oinmissiouer on the part «)f the I'nited States: — We agr<>e that that may stand on the same footing as with ref- erence to Sir < 'harles H. Tupjter. The t'ommiHsioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Is there any other suggesticm that counsel have to make as to the business of the day? Mr. IMckinson: — May it please the < Commissioners: I de sire t<» present, merely to have it go upon record, ('harles B. Warren, Esij., a member of the Federal bar and t»f the State bar in the I'nited States, to attend to such duties as may be assigned to him by (he counsel of the I'nited States. This is in accordance with the precedent, may it please your Honours, on pri(U- commissions. The Commissioner on the part of the I'uited States; — Does that include the nuitter of counsel? Mr. Dickinson: — We assume, nuiy the Comtuissitmers phase, that the (Counsel appointed are officially notified by their respective governments, and we do not fw'l. In behalf of our government, that we are authorized to name other counsel. The CominisBloner on tlie part of the I'nited States: — Not then to be heai*d as counsel? Mr. IMckinson: — For such duties as we assign. It is In accordance with the prcce dally sessions shall be from U) o'clock in the morning until 4 o'clock in the afternoon, 4 m with Jin lioiir'H iiiicriniHHioii. from one to two, wise orrt>ly as sii^p'stions. Sonu> of tlioHe rules we ajrreed upon, so far an w«' were eon eenu'd. and Nome of them we were unable to agree upon; and, 5f it wiP be of any aKslsfanee to IhiH Tribunal, I will be happy to lay that draft before yoii now. The <'oniniin8ioner on the part of ller M.ijesty — We will be very happy to ri'ceivr tiiein, as I underslanw«l by tliiit rule, and that I'lili* iui};lit lu> i-(iiiHti'iU'«l aH an at tempt to liiiiil IIh |iowcrH. TIm' roiiiiniHMioiit'r on tlio part of tlit' rnited Htati's: — Vou arc ri-fcrrinij; now to rnk' l(i? -Mr. I'rttTH: — Tlif rule I wan about t«» read. .Mr. DiikinHon: — TIiIh Ih the ri;le which I handed my learn ed friend this morninii;, but he omitted to briti; hin copy. lO lI'ropoMed rule read.) It clears the way to t)ie ))roduction of documentary testi UKMiy and saves all question, because the 4Mi(;inals are not pres«'nted. .Mr. I'eters: — I do not object to the rule, provided it is not construed as limiting thi> ])owers under th(> words "autlien tic evidenc«>." I thought, perhaps, ^om«' things niip;lit be "authentic evidence" which are not mentiimed in that rule, and that is all. 30 The ('(immissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Will yon read it a.u;ain, please. I do not <|nit(* catch the words objected to. .Mr. I'eters: — The words in the Convention are: "Tlie Commissioners are authori/.ed to receive all huilable aulheu tic testimony concerning the sime." This rule ]U'opose*l by my learned friend simply describes one class of suitable au- tlu'niic testimony, and there may be other evidence which woubl lie just as suitable and just as authentic; and, if that 30 rule passed, it nii^ht be conslrueil as limiting; as to that kind of evidence only, thenby lu-evcntiuf; us frtan ]Mittin(; in evi dence which otherwise would be suitable and authentic. I have no objection to the rule so far as it };oes, if it is not ctmsidercd as limiting us entirely to that class. The Commissioner on the part of (he I'nited States: — V'ould not your objection be nu-t if .Mr. IHckinson should add to it, "this is not to be coiislrue due for daniau:es rcsultiim to Mritish subjects by certain unlawful seizures nuide by the < ioverument of *' • I'nitid States. It is true that in the Convention the e\ 1 dence, to a certain extent, which ^:oes to make up that claim is pointed |iut ill ill IIh' rity of Siiii FiniiciKcti; iiiitl for tlinl piirposc, to n'wv (lie <'oiiiiiiisHioii jiropcr iiowrrs. iiii Act of CoiinifHS Wiis pasm'tl, si^iiiMJ liy tin* l'i<'Niil<'iit. jiimI Ih'OIIih' ti law. We may lie iiiiNtaiicn. Imt we tliiiil* not. At all cvciitM. the eaw of the riiilcd StalcH in tlcfcncc has been ]H'i'|)a!-i-d on tlic tlicory that we wen- to put in our caH*' in dcft'iico iiiiitc laryt'ly at San Fran«iH'«>. and it is well Kt-ttlfd that we could not coni|icl ccrlain ri-liictant witiicssfs in the City of San 10 riancisco. w!io have liccn ciifrafit'd in tin- s(>alin^ Inisiiifss. to ionic to N'ictoria; and it is intended, as wc iiiidcrstan( I'ari.s that there was a wid«' ditl'ei-eiice in tile slateinents of the witnesses when iiifoiiiially presented liy ex parte alltdavits. There was no reconciling; them: there was no attempt of the Tribunal to reconcile tlieiii. So that, with (his a(h by (lie t'omiuission, seen by (he t'oniiiiission, and (ell (heir stories under <-ross-e.\aniina(ion before (he Commission. Xow. there is iiodiin;; of the case exo'iit wlia( your Honours may lind from the testimony of (liese witnesses. The case which your Honours will hear. 3*^ so far as (he asses.«nient of daiiiafjes is concerni'd, will be. what property of Uritish siibjecis has been seized under (he aiithoi-Ky of the T'niled States (!ov- < rnment, seized unlawfully, accordint; to the (ind- iiiKs of (lie Talis Tribunal. Other questicuis reserved by the .\ward of the Tribunal are, whether the pron<"r(y (laiined to have been seized, and claimed (o have been owned by Hridsh siibjecIs was in fac( (he pioper(y of Itritish sub jects, or, on (he other hand, was the property of Americans —or lilizens of the I'liited States — who, under cover of the lliilish lla;,^ defied the laws of their country, were caujjlit at it, and their property seized. The queslion will arise as lo the citizenship of (he owners of some of these vessels, riiat (jueslion is to be disposed of by the Tribunal, and is expressly reserved: but. as to the main ipiestion. the I'liiled States (iovernment is as iiuxioiis as Her .Majesty's Ciovern ment can be (o have this sum fixed that we shall pay. and fixed as e.Njiediliously as jMts.sible. We are not disputiii<; the liabili'y. The liability having; been fixed, the I'nited States -a ;«at Ilritain that th«'.v niinht want t«» uw houu' t«'Hti iiionv undtT one head at hoiuo Hubscquont stant' «>f tho v»m\ we at «»n<"<' aciH'dfd to, and tin* othrr ruh' whh drafted und«'r which any t«'Htiinon.v pn'viou»ly takt-n could ht- used under any other head; and unlcHH ytiur Honoura are prepartMl to hold that you will hold but thi» one HeHsion, and that weniuHt brlnjr her«', or fail to have our proof. witnewseH who will not come from San Francisco, th«'n thirt rule cannot b«' adopted. There is no at any jMiint. W«> desire to ]iroce<>d in the most orderly and most exjH'ditious way. Hut we must insist that th«' tliends to ap])roacli the coiv.ideration of |}\is case. My learned friend has laid d«)wii certain doc- trines in relation to the qu»'stions that are before this Oom- mission. With those (pi(>sti(ms I, at jtresent, have nothin^r to do, and I will content myself by sayinj; now, that I differ from him in regard to his statements on certain of these points. I reft'r i)articularly to his references to the ques- tion of American citizenship and the question of American own(>rship. Later on, it is probable that these matters may be discussed before this ('ommission, but, just now, I have nothing more to say about them, than simply to remark that they will be considered in due time. At tlu» present moment, tlu' question before us is: Should 01' should not each case be consideri'd sejiarately. If I un- derstand correctly the substantial objection taken by my le;irned friend to our form of rule is this: It is apparent, h(> says, that it is intended that this Commission shall sit in San Francisco; and he adds that he wishes to have his wit- nesses examined viva voce and subject to cross-examination. With the latter statement I entirely af!;re«\ Rut, merely a jtlance at the Conventicm will shew that it is not at all a matter of course that the (!(mvention shall sit in San Fran- cisco. We may sit there, or we may not sit there. Article '2 of tli<> ('onvention reads as follows: — "The Commission shall also sit at San Francisco, Califoniia. as well as N'icloria, provid«>d that either Commissioner shall so lequest. if he shall be of opini(m that the interests of jus- tice shall so recpiire for reasons to be recorded on the min- WU'H." In the first place, therefore, there can be no session of the Commission at San Francisco unless one of the Ccmimission ers — not the (Counsel, but one of the C!ommission«>rs — r( - quests that the Commission shall sit there. It therefore ap- pears at the very outset that whether this Commission shall sit at San Francisco or not, does not depend on the wish of <'ounsel on either side, Imt it depends entirely upon a request for such sitting lu^in^ made by one of the (/ommissiimers, .•tnd also, it ]>rovides this, "When that Commission«'r shall be «tf opinion that the interests of justice shall so requiw for reasn<1 ntarts out with what Hoom« to mo to ho n falhiry wh<>n ho makt'H it appear aH a inattcr of roiiri^t' that tilt' I'liitcd StaloH raNf, or a f^rvat part of it, iH Koin^ to ho put iu at S:iu KratiriHto. Kvt>n whoii wt* roiuo to «-oiisi(l«>i' ih<- <|Ui'stiou of wlu'tlici* wo an* to wit at Haii Fraudo;s on any othor clnint aro bojjnn; oxcojtt such ovidon<'o as may bo siH>cially rosorvod to l»o a«I- dncod later on on sfNcial causo shown." What wo ]iroposo t>y that is, that if my loarnod friend s(at<'s — and wo want nothinff mon- than a statomont — that ho hiis such and such ovi«lonco to jtroduco in Snn Francisco, of course that ovidonco will bo rosorvod to bo produced lator on, if wo should n" t<> ^"n Francisco. It is just tho samo with r.'>,'ard to tho Hiitish (.'ounsol. Wo may hnvo ovidonco our- solvos to |»roduco in San Francisco, and wo novor intended for n moment that the othor side should bo com]H>llod to brintr their witnesses from San Frant-isco and "xamine them •It Victoria. Tho rule which w«' propose [trovides against that, and wo leave it simply and solely in tho discretion of the (.'ommissioners. If oiflier Commissioner should say that either i»ar(y to the case should have this witness or that wit- ness examined in San Francisco, all tlu' < 'ommlssionor has to do Is to state, that in his opinion the interests of justice r«'- <|ulre thiit tliat «'vldenco sliall bo taken In San Frani'isco, and conse(|uently such ovidonco would be reserved until we Kot to that city. Tho rub' as pntposed by us will in no way affect the rij;ht of my learned friend to i»roduce evidence iii San Francisco, nor will it in any way affect his rifi:ht to ex- amine and cross-examine witn<>sHes. ' I a^nH* with him as to tlio almost valuelossncss of ovidonco niven by affidavit. Wo do not propo.so to jjivo evidence under affidavit, except in certain cases which will come In-fon' the rommissionera for consideration when it is tondtTod, If it should be tendere, tlM* CoiiiiiiiNHion would Im> ilitiiiKiiiK altiiiit nil tlw liiiii* fi'oiii oiif ritv to lli«- oIIkt. 11 )i|>|M'iii-H to lilt' thai tli*' rule HUnp Hied l».v Mr. IHrkinsoii would ciiuhc ii ^rcal dt-iil of iiii HIT* MNurv iiicoiivi'iiii'iHM' to tin- roiiiiiiiHHioiHMH. and in addi rioii to that, I wiv that it would not |ila<-«- tli«- ItritiHh riaini in that poNition wliirli it oii^lit to he |ila<<-d in. \V)> litiv<> inanv Hi-paratt' cascM ht'ic, and h.v the tcrnm of thin ("onvcn lion the V ar<> ti-catt'd iin Hi'imrati' (iihcm, and thin Trilinnal <<^^ liiiH to ti'nd upon thi-iii m-paratclr. TIiIh 4'oiiiniiHHion {h not aiilliori/.i>d, iiM ill the taHi- of tlii' Oi-ni-va Arbitration to find M liiiiip mini, )>ut Die dut.v of tiiiH Triliiinal, aH ]ioiiit<'d out in Idiiil; and wliiti- in the "convoiition, is, tliat upon oarh rano ii H*'|iara1r lindin}: Iuih to l)«> iiiad«-. That will Im> found in Artith' :{• "Till' Haid ('oniniiHHioncrs kIuiII dctcrniint' tli(> iialtility of tin' I'liitiMl StatcH, if any, in rfspt'ct of oach claim, and iiHHrHH the amount of coiiipt'nsation, if any, to Im' paid on an-oiint tlicrcof — 8o far at* Hwy Hliall Im' aiil*- to ngrvc thcrctm." •?o TlH'rcfon" the t'oiiimisNioncrs will we that thi'y liavt" to lind a scjmrat*' judnmcnf in cacli faw. Ah a matter of fact, and very properly ho. all tlu' claimn in tliew canen have been separately drawn iii», ho tliat a Hopnrnte record of each cane can be made Ity the ('ommissionePH when they come to ^ive their jndpnent. Whilst there are Home caseB in which for the salce «if convenience evidence may very well Iw grouped tojietlier. and there in Home evidence w'hich may very well be applie|ilicable to all tlu'se cases all at the one time As a mere matter of convenience and regularity, is it n(»t bet- ter that each case should l)e treated as the i'onvention itself treats >t. as a separate and distinct case. !f that is done, and il is what we jiropose, we will be able t(> make a cparatini; them on*' from another. The ruh' allowing the evidence (jiven in one i-ase to Im* re-, ceived in a subse(|uent case, is simply for the sake of con- venience, in order to save tinu', and not to have any useh ss repetition of evidence. Outside of that, it appears to us that it would be only ri}iht that we should take case No. 1, fjive our evidence on it as far as we can. and then that the other side should come forward and ^ive their evidenc*' '.n refer- ence to it. At the very outset we should leara the one from the oilier, what the case on each side is. Hut the proi»<»si -Q tion of my learne*! friend is that we should put all our cases and Jill our evidence forward in the tirst instance, and then that they sliouhl brini; up all their evidence. It may haii])en we niiiy discover, that at the end of all this loajj evidence we li-ive only been wastiu}; lime to a cj'riain extent in pro- ducinv evidence (ui certain ]ioinls, which, when the I'nited Stales <-omes to ojien their case, may turn out were not iioiiils in dispute at all. On every <;ronnd; (Ui the <;round of savin;; of lime, on the ground of following out the terms of the Convinlion, on the {ground of convenience; we submit that ()0 these cases should be treated as far as ]»osHible as Kei)arate cases. I do not think it is necessary for nie to make any olh( r remarks with regard to this rule. As a matter of f.icl, as I slated at the outset, these ruh's are submitted by Counsel merely as su^p-slions. Their d<'termination, of course, rests entirely with your lordships, and we leave it to voii to decide. I heartily join with my learned friend, Mr. Dickinson, in the remarks he has made with reference to the composition of this Ili^h Tribunal. It is to my mind a matter of the very K'*''i>t'''"' •"•f"i(' iiicii wltoMC ({rent cxiM-iifiicf «k iiMlp'HciiiiltlfH UN to Hti.v with cri'laiiity. tliiil (lie vuhv will Im> ilciiiliMl iiri'onliiiK to till- well known iirinriplcH of law. iinil jiiHliri- tiiitl r<|iiitv. Mr. IHikiiiHoii of (NiniiNi-l for the I'nltiMl HtatoH: — Vonr HtniofK, I wIhIi to Hay a few wohIh in rcjily. 1 rHtood to ni,v Icaiiwd fiii'iiil in Ntatin^; my olijfitionH to tlilH rnl<>. Of loiirNi'. I i|iiiti' iiniliTHlanil undi-r tlii' t<>rniH of tlw ('onv«-ntion that a Hi-HHion may Ih* convi-ni'd at San FianciNro at thi' r<>i|ui'Ht of oni- of tli<> CommiHHioniTH. I Htatcil, liowt'Vi-r. that tli<> pro ]iosition waH tii-Nt maih- by lli-r Maji'Hty'H Oovi'rnnii'nt to iuivi> oni> Ncssion at N'irtoria. Iml thr ottlcial nc^otiationH hIii-w that tlK* roiinti'i- Hn;;p-i4tion wan madi' that ti'Htimonv waH m-ri'HHaiy to he taken — and a larni' ma»H of toHtimony — at San KianciKro. whirh wiih not ohtaimihit' at Victoria. I'lMin that Ix-in^ mail** to appcjir. an amendment was innert ed in the <'onvention providint;, that if either t'onimiHsioner should lie NatiHtied of it. a HexHioii Hhonld he had nt San Fran- risco. Of coarse the primary object of the session at Vic- toria was to enable ller Majesty's should put in nil their claims at once; they can jnit them in separately. The I'aris Tri- bunal had seen enough of ex jiarle attidavits. they liad seen enough contlict of testimony, to establish beyond jienidvent- iire liiat it was necessary — a necessity recoftnized in the ne pitiations between the liit;h < ontractint; parties — that <'om- niissioners should see the witnesses and li<>ar their testi- mony, and hear it tested by cross examination. Wlu-re claims are so interwoven as the claims ar«' here, where llie amount to be recovered in one case rests upon testimony almost exactly like that of another case, it will not do for the I'nited States tiovernment to ffive notice at once of its de- fence, or of its attack upon the credibility of the witnesses ]iroduced to day in one case and who may be produied to- morrow in another case. I say this because it ap]H'ars from the terms of the ronventioii itself, and from the record of Uie Paris Tribunal, that there were doubts about the ti-sti- niony of some of the witnessi s. We are meeting; here in the sealin;; country the testimony of hostile witnesses, and it is assumed r>n the jiart of tlie fnited States, and it may be fairly asHiimid from the record of the I'aris Tribunal, that the testimony in support of these claims was not reliable. It may be assumed, then, that the I'nited States (iovern- ment will claim, as it did claim before the I'aris Tribunal, and as it does claim on this record il do not know that your Honors have seen it \vi), that at least some of these claims are sup]iorted by evidence that is unworthy of credit. I do not wish to be invidious by sin^linu: ont any of them for special reference. Xow, the t'onventiim assumes that that may be .so, and your Honors are here to see the witnesses, t<. listen to their oral examination and their cioss-examina lion. It will not do with that class of witnesses, for the Counsel for the I'nited States (Sovernment to an noiince beforehand what its attack npcm the credibilitv of a particular witness will be. It appears frivm the evidence before the I'aris Tribunal that the same ilass of witnessi's will api»ear in ditt'erent cases, and in some instances the same individual will apjiear as a witness in ditt'erent cases. Sup pose, for instance, in the iIiIh (Iiihh of wltiu'smH of our inirpoHO. I tlx'or.v i»f tlif ('nnvcntion \h (tint tlH> <-n>ilil)ilit,v of tlit'Hc wilnt'NHt'H Hliiiil l)f tfHtf(i DM it iH onliniir- il.v U'hU'A in t'ourtM of Itiw. Tiirrc iH no «linirnllv in my i'armMl frifntln, n'tin-HcntinK ll<>i- MiijrHlv. pnttinK in tln'ir «>nttr«' raw. for it in a mere aHMCHnnn-nt of tliat tin* Trilainal innnt tln claim to hv made np of th<' ap- praiHi>m«'nt of tin* (lilTt'n'nt itemn inilnd. t'rrtainly tlii> 10 4'onnH«>l for llcr Maj«'Hty'H (iov«>rnm*-nt mnnt Itc r«'a«ly at thiH tim«> to v«>rif,v tht'ir «-laimH. ('crtainly tli*> l<>arn<>d ConnHol, wli<»in i am ^lad to wf Iuih JiiNt l)<>*>n added to tin* diHtin- KulHlml t'onnni'l n-pn-Ht-ntin^ ili>r Majt-Hty, and wlio waH tli** aK«'nt of Iler Majesty'H t>ov«M'nm<-nl before the I'ariw Til- Itnnal; — and to whoHe etTorlx larjjeiy the rnitnl HtateH tiov- ernnient eanie out a loHer — eertainly Ite In in a jioHition to linow — if any man i«-kinHon: — Y«'h, your H(tnour. We do not denire to proceed with our case until they net their clainiH forth. The t'ommiHsioner on the part (tf the I'nited Staten: — 4° Would you claim that if the evidence wan Iteinjj; taken on be- half of the Hcho(tner "Carolena." f(tr inntancc, you would use the evidence taken in the cane (tf the "Wanderer" to preju- dice the claim ho UHed, but the same witnenn mi);ht bt> called to Huntain it. The ('«mimiHHi(tner on the part (tf the I'nited Staten: — Then what advantap* ih there in the ]tr(t]toHiti(tn that th(> Hritinh (iovernment nhould tirnt put in all their evidence (tn all the ^ clainiB? Mr. r>ickinH(tn: — May it please your Tlonor, the t«>stimony is larjjelv of th(> sjune clasn of men, who are in very intimate nns(tciati(m, and if we disclone our line of defence (tr attack nnon the witness in one ca«e, it will be known and will be prepar(>d for by this claHH of witneHH(>n in all the HubHe()U(>nt cases. That in the point I have b«H'n endeavoring to make. The whole theory (tf the f'onvention and (tf the conntitutWtn of thin Tribunal in t(» permit us to Holve our d(tubt as to the ^ credibilitv of the witnesses. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nit(>d Htates; — l>o yen not think you could niann^e that under the rnl.» "t wli.di y..u have ufrreed upon, that the testimony may be transferred fr«tm one case to the other? Mr. Dickinson: — N«tt at all. Rujtpose we examirii' as to the case of the "Carolena." how do we know ♦^hat our crosn- examinntion ought to be the same for some (tther case In II wliUli tilt' HtiiiM' witiifHH inii.v III' ciiINmI. TIk'.v inii.v tnui*if«>r tlit'ir (lini't tcHlinion.v iiixl w«> would not liiivt> <'nms4>xaiiiin(>tl liim iiH to IiIm I'i'liitioii to tlif otlu-r v<-Hm'l wHIi rrpirti to wliirli lif wiiM cxiiiiiiiM'il. Til*' niHi> Ih full of ilininillifH if Wf do not liiivf rounm-l foi- ll*>r .MaJ«'H)y t-loHi' tht'lr tcHli- nion.v, tlifir voriliriition and aHHi'HHUwnt of daiini(;«>H lM-f(»rt> \\r pt into our di'fcnrc. Tiny may trauHfi'i' the t»'nliinony of a witnt'NH who IniH Ihmmi <>xaniin<'d aH to on<> riaini, iind UMc It latrr on for anotlnT claini, hut llic croHM examination may not rov«'r what has conu* out in a Hul)H«><|Ufnt (*aM(>. Mr. I'l'tcrH! — Y»»u have aK>'<'«'d to that, though. Mr. Dirl^inNOM' — I a^^l■<'d to tlii-M* rnh-H without ruh> 4. I took nilt> 4 thon. and I take it now, to Im- radically wrtm^. The ('omniiHHltmer on the part of the Tnlted Stateo; — If th<>ii> w*'r«* no rnh'H at all. wouhl not the t'ommiHHion. aw a matter of courHc. take up tlicHe rlainiH one Ity one? Would not that Ih> the ordinary rourH<> of a tribunal of JuHtiee? ^fr. DickinNon: — We could only put in our caw* here In |il(M-enieal. The (NunmiHshmer on the part of the Tnitcnl States: — Re- servinj;. of eourHe, the matter of teHtimony in Kan Franciweo. Mr. DiekiuHon: — If your Honour mad«' that rule, we could reHerve all our teHtimony for Han FranciMco. The CommiHMioer on the part of the United StateH:— That would not follow at all. ItecauHe th«' proceedin^H w(Hild he 30 conducted in pood faith. Mr IMckiuHon:— If it would not folhtw. we would be ob- Ii>r«'d to dlHpense with the teHtimony we hav«' in Han Fran- oIm'q. The CommiHHioner on the part of tlie Fnitcd Htates:— I do not think that would follow either. -Mr. Dickinson — I ask your IIonorR to consider this (pies- tiou. as we deem it a nuilter of very fjreat im|iortance. The ('omniissioner on the part of the I'nited Htates:— If t'ounsel on either nide would UHHiire the Commissioners that there is evidence of imiiortance to be taken .Tt Han Francisco. 1 do not believe either commissioner would ask to liave tlie evidence disclosed. I nu>rely ask these questions to g<>t at a practical result. I would like to ask a .juesticm about one or two other of these rules. One of these rules !»rovtd< s f«)r the siirninK of the protocol by the ("(unmissioners and the Secretary. Ho far as my «'xamination into the pnidice 50 goes, the protocols have been siftned by the agents or tlie Counsel of the two fjovernnients. Mr. IMckinson:— I think that at the Paris Tribunal t with regard to the case of the the "Wanderer." in wliich case there will be sonie little d<-lay. It will all deju-nd on what time niv learned friend will require to tile his replies. 40 lO Mr. IMrkiiiKitii: -It would lir liii|iimMiblc or iim to t«>ll tliiit iiiilil w*' Hi'f IIm- tliiliiiM. Tlif t'oiiiiniHHioiHr on tin- |>iirl of llrr Miiji'hIv: -I iiiii ri> i|ii»'Mtt(l liv .hulp- I'litiiiim to iiHk wliiit Ik tin- iif last nitiht, and ». this uiornin}.'. The claims. I feel salislicd, will all he in the hamlK of t'ounscl opposite today. At all events, if all are not lllcd, there will he only one or two of the last ones reiiiainiii};, and which in 60 the natural course of events cannot lie reached for some con- viderahle time yet. They are all in the hands of the printer and the in-oofs have been revised. The (•(imniissioner on the part of the riiiled States: — What is the status of the "Wanderer" claim? Mr. Teleis: — I shall have lo ask the ("oiirt to allow me a few days before I juit in that claim. The owner will not be here for iieihajis ;i wwk, but it is one of the very last cast's. II' 1 If tj Tin- r iiilMMloiicr oil tin- imil of till' Initnl Sintrx: -Will voii, Mr. I»ii'liiii>' to the tiiiif \oii will iifcd for rrplv? Mr. IHckiiiHoii;— No, .voiir lloiioiir. If llHMf Ih oiiIv oim' iliiiiii willilit ljl*lillK llcrt'HKiirV III r<'H|l)-('t to tllf olllCIH. The foiiiMilMHioiicr on lln- purl of tlic I'liilid SIjiIch:— You 10 •on proliiilil.v inforin iih tomorrow morning; how niiicli tiiiio will ri'i|iiirc. Mr. MirkiiiHoii: — No iloiihl. If we IiihI lin would lie aide to pi-fpar*' mir plcadin>;N within forlvfi^ht hours and ] fovorwl l»,v the ("ouum'l f»»i" tlic I'liilt'd Stati'H in the draff of nih' 4 Hiilnnittfd bv tlu'in; — at least, tlu' rule aw adopted fjoes as far aH the ('oiniiiiNaioiiers de»>iii tlieinselves able to (^o in view of (he fundamental rales noverninn proeeedinps in determin- ation of contested matters. Tlie t'onimissioners desire to obs«'rve that they liave no dotibt that tlie counsel on eitlier side will exhaust all the evidence available at Victoria with reference to every claim, ,Q except such as nia.v be strictly in lebuttal. before the det«'r- minalion of any application for av> adjournment to San Francisco; and 1 feel justified in addiii}; tluit. in the deter- mination of any such application, (he < Commissioners will un- doubtedly rely upon the expressed judgment of the counsel making the application as to its desirability. It is possible that a careful (>\amination of rule :{ may disat (hat we would be exd'emely obliged to Counsel for a sugges- tion iu that direction, and we shall be very glad to confer .ij 10 20 30 40 IS nltoiit it infoiiiiallv at any time, ua an infonual ronffronce \v/»iild be {MM-hapH nuM-c (onvcnicnt tlian in open HeMxion. Mr. Peters : — I now present to tiie roinniiHHionerH, forin- all.v, clainiH Xo. l:,' to No. 11!. which I have already seiTed upon Counsel on the otiier sid" and tih-d. The Coiiiniissioni-r on the part of Her Majesty: — What is tli«' entire number of tlie ehiims? Mr. I'eters: — The entire number is '2(\. Of these 1I5 are aetually in tlie itands of tlie printer, and my b'arned friend opposite sluill liave them t<»-ni}flit. The "Wanderer" elaim stands in the jtosition as already stated. The <'em it better to adjourn from day to day in view of possible eontin>;en( ies. The Counsel need not at- tend unless they have something to briujr before ns. Mr. Dickinson ; — The Counsel for the I'nited States are quite cuntident they would be able to file their replies on Friday mornintj but for the interposition of the Thanks<;;!v injj holiday, which by a happy coincidence is held ickins(m: — Counsel for the I'nited Stales have no objection to that. There will be hardly any reason for reply, we think, excej)! in rejjard ton the Commissioners took their sj'ats. The Commissioners authorized the Secretary to rec«'ive and tile claims, with the same etTect as though filed befoi-e the Commissioners when in open session. At 10:40 a.m. the ('ommissioners adjourned to again con- vene at 10:;{0 a.m., Friday. November 27, 1H!»6. 60 Cjmmissioners under the Canvantion of February 8, 1898, Between Great Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, November 27, 1893. .\t half past ten o'clock in the forenoon the Cominissioners took their seats. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty:— Gentle ■ lO 20 40 16 t(» tlx' romiiiissioiuTM this -I simidy wish to inakt' a formal motion. iiu'ii, is thoiT an.vtliiun to infm-nt uioriiiii^? Mr. Petirs: Till' CominissitmiT on the jmi't of Hci- Majesty:— Tlu' learned ("ounMei cm tlie other side are not jnesent. I siinjilv wish to make in otlier (lav witli regard to Mr. IV'ters: — I know, my lord. «)|ien conrt a motion 1 maile 1h( ,...., ,. „ Andiew li. Lain;,', and to ask for a formal order for his exam ination. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — That is a},'reed to, I understand. Mr. Peters:— Yes, Connsel on the other side have agreed to it. I be}; to move as follows; In the matter of the Hehriu}; Sea Claims Convention, and in the nmtter of the Claim of Her Hritannic Majesty arisinj,' out of the seizure of the schooner "W. P. Sayward," and in the matter of the personal Claim of Andrew H. Lainjr; "I"" 50 60 ipast tea o'clock tomorrow morning. Commissioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America- Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, November 28, 1896. At Kh.'SO a.m. the Commissioners took their seats. The Commissi;j(es!ed by tlie llijih <"(ini niisHioners wilh irgard to the cross-examination of witnesses lirodn4'ed in a second «a8e who laid been examined in tlie prior case. The nde as snt,'K<'«ted was as follows: "If either Iiarty thus transfers any part of the testimony of any one of Ins own witnt'sses relating' to any nialtei* as to whiih such witness has not been cross-examined, such jmrty shall at (In- request of the other party simultaneously produce such wit ness for cro8s-«'xaniination in reference then'to, excejit so fai- as the Commissioners shall otherwise direct." We have suf the (Commis- sioners. It should not be necessary to produce a wilnes;; for further examination, but if the (Commissioners, or either of them, thou<.';ht that either side should ])roduce a witness for further cross examination, we should be jierfectly willing to leave them in that way. Our desire is. so far as possible, to complete the examination of a witness when he is put in the stand, as well as his cross-examination. If (his idea sug gested by us does not nu'et the a])proval of the Commis- sioners, we are willinp to put it in any form that will meet their view of the case. The Commissioner on the part of the Fnited States: — Is not your suggestion well covered by the closing woi'ds of the proposed addition to the rule? Mr. Dickinson : — "Except shall otherwise direct." so far as the Commissione?s The CCommifisioner on the part of the United States:— Sup posing it appears fo the Commissiom-rs that u]Kin th(> direct examination of a witness, either your witness or the witness of the United States, the counsel for you or the counsel for (he I'nited States pointed out clearly and disdnctlv to (he counsel on the other side that it was intended tpreh<>nds what is in our minds, that the ciossexaniination of a witness may be necessary, and appear to be necessarv, in connection with the other testimony in the case in which it is introduced. And with this amendment we are entirely satislhd. And shall the rule stand. .Mr. I'eiers? Mr. Peters: — ^■e». that is tpiite satisfactory. * The Commissioner on the jiart of the rnited States: — Will not tile counsel take the matter and put it in such form as they agree on. Mr. Dickinson: — Ves. your Honour. I would say to the High. Commissioners that the counsel for (he I'liilcd States will be quite within the rule, and have their answers all in within the three days, excluding the holiday. We exjiect to serve our frien during the hearing in various foinis. The questions we raisi go to the fundamental law and the jurisdiction of the Tribu nal. and we submit that they aie extremely important in their results, for. if we are right in our contention that these cases are not within the terms of the Cimveniion. it may fii(ioii (o itH ln'tiriiin in ivlatiou <<» tlu' artioii of tlu' Tiiria Tribunal. The C'oinniissioiuT on the part of tlu- Tnitt'd Slatt's: — Will you kindly stat«' tho pith of the motion to disniisH? Mr. IMcklnson: — Yes, your Honour. This is a claim ariw- injj out of the warninfj of the Hcliooncr "Hlack IMam, ;15 miles, 'Kush,'" indicating,' that the "Hlack Diamond" was seized or warned on July 11. 18S!», ;{.') miles from land by the United States revenue cutter "Uusli." Your Honours will observe that.it appears nowhere els<>, either in that sclunlule or in the scheduh' at the foot, entitled "Additional Claims." The Commissiont'r on the part of the I'ulted States: — Tliere is a difference in the form of printiuf; the Appendix of Claims. Mr. Dickinson :— We your Plononr. are not informed in what respect, The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — In many respects. The otticial copy furnished me by the State Department was printi'd in many resi>ects dift'erently from the schedule appearinj^ upon the copy furnished the Court. Mr. Dickinson: — >'ot in respect to tliis one item. We had the ollicial d. Claim No. 5, as ro which tliis motion is made, is for a warniuf? made in July, IS.St!, three years be- fore. Hoth are for warninj^s, and of course, as we sliall sub- mit, every warning!, as has bwu treated in the proceedinns of the Tribunal at Paris, — evi-ry warning has been treated in the Convention as a separate case, having its own indepen- dent , to be substantiated by independent proofs, entirely separate and distinct from the others. Now, unless the claim is in the schedule, (M- re- ferred to in the Award under Article I. of the Convention, this claim cannot be considered by the Tribunal. And in tluit connection I tirst read Article I. of the Convention, which your Ihmours will find accurately ((uoted en page \'.\ of my learned friend's Index, as follows: "The High Contract- ing Parties agree that al! claims on account of injuries sus- tained by persons in whose behalf f the said Tribunal of Arbitration, as also the additional claims specified in tlie .'ith paragrai»h of the preamble hereto, shall be referred to two Commissioners, one of whom shall be appointed by the President of the United States, and the other by Her Hritannic Majesty, and each of wluun shall be learne the tirst qualiticatiim. that the claims must arise from the provisions of the Treaty aforesaid, on-referr ing to Article VIII. on page 4 of the Appendix, we find the ,-.!-««!.in-.^ 71^^^'^ -> .-»■■■ 20 lO 20 30 40 50 60 jirovisioii of (In- Ticiil.v wliicli 1h )h(> Hultjt-ct of tli»» reference ill Arliilc I. of llic ('oiiv«'n(ion: "Tli«' lli},'li (NintractiiiK I'lirtics lniviiifj foiiiiil tlu'iiiK.clvcH iiiiiilili> to iigrci' upon a n'f»'rcii(«' wliiili hIisiII iniliKlc tlif qiics lion of (lie liiibilil.v of t'lich for the injiirivH alli'P'd to liavc liccn siislaiiKMl liy tlic otlit-r. oi- l»,v its citizens, in connection with tlic cliiiinw iircwcntcd aii«l nrncd by it; and hciiip; wolici- t. iiH tliat tliiH siihordinatc tiiicHtion Nlionld not interrupt or 'ion to the Mrilish case, or any of them, were wludly or in part the ac- tual jiroperty of citizi-ns of the Tnited States, have been withiliawn from and have not been considered by the Tribu- nal, it beinjf understood that it is ojien to the I'nited States to raise tliese i|iiestions, or any of them, if they think lit. in any future ne};otiatiritanni<- Majesty: — Are two claims made in respe, as here presente*!, is for a warnin};; jii-ecisely like that of 1S8!>. Now, it hardly needs an nrfiunient in presentin<> inclusive, in its recapitulation, and in the schedule attached to the Award of the Tribunal of Paris. The "Tiiumph" is scheduled twice, first for a seizure and a warniuf; cond f<»r a warning; or seizure on July 11th, IHSIt; and both were warninjis as sjiecilied in the schedules, and in the testi- UKUiy of th(> Hritish case, pay*'" 1 to till inclusive. The sanu' thin*; occui-s as to the "rathtinder." sclu'dnled in the Hritish case before the Paris Tribunal, and recapitulated in the Hritish ca.se before the Paris Tribunal, ;o in ::o 3" 4<"' 5" 6o 33 Htlu'duhMl iiii'i dofliM'd in the I'liiiw Triltunal in tJio Appen- dix of rlalniH annexed, and sclieduled in llie A|>pendix »»f claiinn HuJunitted to tlie Tribunal of Arititration at I'ariH to tIdH Convention. The "Pathfinder" whh Heized or warned on .Inl.v 27tli. IHS!), by the steamer "UuhIi," 50 niileH from Hliore;'«nd Hlie was alHO seized in Neali Hay on March 27th, 1S1M», l»y the "Corwin." A tliird case is the case of the "A1 frcd Adams," whicii was warned or s»'ized on August 10, 1SH7, by the "Rusli," and tlien under tlie name of tlie "Lily." On Aujjnst (>th, IHHU. she was warned by the same United States ri'venue ted to put in this «laini, and to have it brought before this Convention when the <;;le excejition, and tliat exception covers what are entitled "additional claims," and ihose additional claims are those referred to in preamble tive, in which the independent warniufr of this ship, the "Hlack Diamond," does not appear. We submit, may it l>U'ase your Honours, that it is essential that cure should be exercised upon the (piestion of the claims presented and act- ed upon by the Tribunal, because of the elTect |M»ssible upon the Award itself, and that this case is not one which can be consid«'red by this Tribunal. Mr. Peters: — Mjiy it jdease the t Commissioners, the objec- tion taken by my learned friend to claim No. 5, with refer- ence to the "Hlack Diamond," may be briefly stated to be that the "Hlack Diannrnd's" name does not app«'ar twice on the schedule of this <-onvention, and that the year 1SH(> is not expressly stated in the sclu vlule with rejjard to tlM> claim <»f (lie "Hlack Diamond." He arjjues, thereore, (hat this case does not come under the terms of the Convcnticm at all. That is to say, his <"ontention is that the date is a material part of the statement in the schedule of the Convention. Our conten- tion is the contniry. We submit that the tiate is merely stated in that schedule as a piece of infornuition. The new d at as an addition to the amount of coni- jiensation to be paid in respect to the schooner "Hlack Dia- mond." My learned friend hiis referrwl to the original Treaty, and also to th«' Convention to illustrate the point that he mak«'S. His objection amounts to a statement that the claim ef ilie "lilack Diamond" does not come within the purview of the Convention at all. This is but a preliminary objection of my learned friend, but it jjoes to the merits of tluM'ase of the "Hla<'k Diamond, and if the application is sue <*essful away fjoes the whole claim. I propose, therefore, to hrielly refer to the Treaty of 1S02, and to see whether the conclusion that my learned fiiend attempts to draw from the w(M- There was another question en- I t'i "'% % lO 20 30 40 Co lircl.v siiliHidiiiiv. jiikI tliat wax, wlu'tluT ccrlain people, who )ia;ht. and it \va^ so dialt with in tlic Titatv ii- mdf. If we hM»l< at tin- Troatv we tind tliat it stai-ts out in the liist of the prcanihh' with tiic statt-nn'iit: "ller Majesty 1 lie Queen of the liiited Kingdom of (ireat Uiitain and lie- lanitraii(ui the ipiestions inv conshderation any claims which they saw lit. Then- was a sl.itement of fait and an .\ward was inatle. and after that Award was nuuh' cerlain nepitiatiiMis diil take jdace. In the course of these negotiations claims were put in bv the f Ciis Conven- tion. I tali voiir I'lononrH atli-iilioii to tlu- <'.\art form in wliicli (!«al clalui was pat in. The «'oi,)iiiissioii( r on tin- part of Her Majiwtv.— What am .you leading fr«nn? Mr. IVtiTH: — I am readinj; from tlu- t'X«'Outlvi» document prcwntt'd to the llouw «»f HciavsmtntlvcH of the United Slates: "Senate Kx. hoe. No. (!7." That sehedule as Ket forth was then siipiiosed to he a eomplete statement of all the elaims to he presented. Man.v of them had been presented lirevioiisly to lliat. It lu'tjins with the "Carolena." the tirst ease, and pies all threins to arj;ue that it must have been struck out for the reason that objection was raised to it. I do not believe tliar that was at all the case. It is a matter of history. aithou};li so far as either party are ciuicerned neither party are bound by the nef^otialions or statdiieiits made during the negotiations, that prior to this convention a lumi» sum had been ajjreed on between the p.-irties as to the amount that should be paid in these matters. I think tliat the fact that a liim]) sum was agreed on has I'othin^ to do with (he amount that should be ^iveii luM'e, and I think liotli of us will a^^ree on that point. lint, as a mat- ft r of fact, it is to b< noted that wh<>n that lump sum was under consideration (his claim of the "HIack Diamond" was one i ilaiiii itself, I III waH Hiiiipl.v ail addilioiial aiiioiint. I liavi- a stiitcincnt wliii'li aH a nialliT of fa<-t. in oi-diT to deal faiilv wiili my Icai'iifd friend on tiie oilier Hide. I ^ave liiiii a lopv of, mo llial my learned friend eoiild not think that I wiKlied lo make any slatemeiil aH to wliieli I did not let liini know. I have ihe slaleiiieiit that when iheMe ronveiilioiiH were paHHiii); helwfh of tilt' liiHl rt'ciliil i-tliitiii;: til I lit- Hii|i|il<>iiii'iiliii',v rlainiM: "The iiiNf of tin- 'llliiik liiiiiiioiiir lian Im-imi i;iit)-s, hn ii ali't'tiilv iip- |M-nrH ill til*' oi'i^iiiiil IIhI of rlniniM niiil llx* HU|i|il<'iiit'iiiiil cliiiiii of iIh' owim'I' wiik only loiirliin^ ilio 1111101111I of n»iii- |H'iiMiitloii. "TIdiI wiiH IiIh \if\v of it. of I'oiirHt' I iiinli-isiniiil tliiit it Im o|m>ii to iiiv IciiI'IdmI fiifiiti to hIiow lliiit IiIh view wiiH not tlif viow tlioroii^hlv uiiili'i'siooti liv liotli |>iii'tics. I iiiii only |iiittiii|; lliix forwanl lo nImiw iIuii lliiil was ilif iiltM «)f Kif .liiliaii i'auiii'i-fotf at llir liiiir, in r "lllark hianioiiil" anil Iravi-s iih opi-n to pnivi' any utht'i' fart whlcli may lii- iii-cvHsary. Till' t'omnilHsioniT on the pait of Hit MajrHiy:- Mr. I*i-tris. tilt' Hrlii'iliiii', HO far as it ri'lalrs to tin- "Itlad; hianionil." vai'ii'H from that in Claim .'i, in two pointH. not only in i'i'(rai-il to tilt' (hito, liiit in i-i'ifai'il lo tin- aK*'i>*'> throii^li wiiiiii tin* aiilhofity of thi' I'liiti'il Stati-H (iovi'iiimiiil waH i-xi'itiHcd. In till' Convi-iition it is stati'il that tlic rnitcil Stali-s tiovi-in- nii'nt artfi) tliroiif;li tin- "Kiisli" in wai-nin^ hi-r olf 01- si-izin^' Iht. Mr. Pi'tiTs: — Sn|>i»os»' that thi' ('onvi'iition stati'ii that tho "Ulack IMatnonil" was si-izi'il by thr ifvi-nni' riitli'f "Kiish," and it turncil out. as a niattiT of fail, that shi' was si-izi-il by till' rcvi'niii' riittiT "forwin." woiilil it In- ainin-il for a sinyli' moini'nt that that riaiiii was i'mIiiiIiiI bi'iaiisi' wi> conlil not |irovi> that tlw si'i/.iin' hail bi'i'ii maih' by tiii' vi'ssi-l siM'citlral- iy incntioni'd? That si'i-ms to nu' to snppoit my lonti'iition. I would Hk«» to ri'iid tho report. Tlu' Comniissioni'r on the jiait of lli-i' Maji'sty: — If yon art* RtM'kini; to iih'ntify a riaini anil tinil that ihi'ii' arc two jiarti- t-nlars in wliiili tlu' idi-ntitlcation is not coinpli'ti'. it is of foiii"»t' stronnt'r than if yon tint! tlnrc is only oni'. Mr. I't'tt'i's: — Vi's, but I am ^roiiiy; to irfi-r paititiilarly now to tlu' st'ht'ilnli' which i havo not yd lonit' to to siiow to the fonrt that t-vt'ii in tlii' srhi'diih' ilsi'lf, in the tinilin>;s of fart itwlf, till' ilati's art' looki'tl upon as imniati'rial; tliat I will t-oiiM' to in a inoini>nt; but 1 want to n-ad tirst tii*' way in which this "Itlaik Diamond" mo under this heading;; it is in the same letter from ?d!'. (iresliiim that I have alre.idy referred to, and is as fol- low a: "MLACK l)IAM()NI>."' "Additional chiim siibmittetl by the master. Mi'. Henry i'axton. for damtifjes alleped to have been sustained by reason of the above schooner liMviii;; been orderetl out of Helirinp Hea in ISSti, by the Inited States authorities. This claim was sent in too late for insertion in the general list of Mritisli claimants. In view of the len.utli of time that had elapsed since the occurrence of the action comi»laineil of. Her Majesty's (iovernineiit ileemed it ailvisable to cause an impiiry to be made as to the reason for the delay in jiresent- inc the claiin. The reason tjiveii was that at the time of the seizure of the vessel, the coownei's, who were three in num- ber, were iloiibtfnl as to how far an appeiil to the Inited States tiovernment for redress would be entertained. In the followinfi year one of the owners was lost at sea, and an other left the country, and it was only after the publication of the Award that the surviving owner consulted his solid- .i t loraiMl wiiM liifornud Hint In- liiul a n«»"»»'• •■•(""•'•''•' ••"'"» for coiiiiM-iiKjitlon. The . lltT Maji'Hl.v'M OovfriiiinnI iiImo nHci'iliiiiitd from llw Moli «UorHln (lacHlion llial llic fart of llu- "Mlaik Uianiond" tifinj; Iioaitlcd liy till' n-vcnuc oltirciH of tin- I'nilfd StalcH and or drrcdont "of HrliriiiK Sea in issti Ih mtt'icd in tiif rrc Ih of tlit> cuMtoni iioUHf at (>nnaiaHl la-ot" . 'vaM nnido l».v tlic master of tlic vchhi'I npim llie arrival of tin- lo Ht-lidoner at Virtoria. rndfp tilt' (•irniiiiHlanirH Her Mnjt'Mtv'8 (iovcrniucnt ron Hidored tliat tlie icaHons of tlie delay were rea> were two distinct vessels with diffenMit owners. Mr. Dickinson: — TIow about the "Pathfinder?"' Mr. Peters:— The "Patlitinder." as a matter of fact is stat- ed twice, and as a matter of fact, the second claim with re- gard to 'the "Pathfinder" is a seizure of clearly a separate and distinct nature; it is not the same class of a seizure; it was not made on the lii^li sens. It is a different class of 30 claims from any t-lainiH incutiuntMl before. He mentions a^ain thai tlie "Alfred Adams" and the "Lily" api»ear twiee. Vet. it apjH'urs I believe that tlu- "Alfred Adams" after- wards clianjjed her name and beeam«> the "Lily." but I do not imagine that the )H>o])le who had the making of the Treaty had any knowledp' of that faet. She was owned as a maltei- of fact, by dilTerent parlies at the lime. and. so far as known to the Hritish liovernment, was an entirely dilfer to ciii ship, and it would never strike n mentioned in the scluHlule, that whether it was ri^'ht to do so or wrou}; with retjard to the case of the "Tathtinder' iM'fore the I'aris Tri- bunal, separate cases for the "I'athlinder" had In-en put in, and ther(>fore they found the schedule and Untk it as it was, and the same with regard to tlu' other cases nu'ulioned, and the same with n-f^ard to the "Triunii>h;" of coiirso they had to be si'parate, the claims were put in by separate jiarties who had separate inter«'sts. and they could not by any possibility all be put in oik*. Now. if you will r«'fer to the article of the Couveution, un der which we are sitting, then see what is sui»poscd to be re- ferred: "The hifih contracting parties ajrree that all claims," the words used are "all claims," "on account of injuries si-t* tained by persons in whose behalf (ireat Hritain is entitled lo claim compeusiition from the I'nited States and arisin<; by virtue of the treaty aforesaid, the award and tindin^'s of the said Tribunal of .\rbitration, as. also the additional claims specifie*! in the Ttth paragraph of the preamble here- to, shall be referred to two t'ommissioners. one of whom shall be appointed by the I'resich'ut of the I'liited State's, and the other by Her Hritannic Majesty, awl each of whmn shall be learned in the law. Ajtpended to this ('(uivention is a list of the claims intended to be referred." The startinj,' idea of that clause was that all claims should be referred. \ow, niy^ learned friend says that that is to be limited to a very tiU'At extent and that it is to be only the claims referred to in Hie schedule. 1 say that wlu'ii you come to I hat scIumIuIc you ouj;hl to ffive it the broadest ]i(ts- sible construction lo carry out the meaning of the partii's. You will find, when you jjet to that schedule, allhoufjh it pur- ])oi'led to be something like a cojty of the tindin^s of fact of llie I'aris Tribunal, it is not a (•(unplete copy ov anythin;; li'" it. It is headed "Appendix of Claims submilled lo llu' Tribu nal <»f a bit ration at I'aris." It states the names of vessels, dales of seizure, apiu'oximate distances and the vessels lli.it go seized llieni; it omits a veiy impoi-tant part, the amoiiir . ; ; not in any way staled. Of coin-se llie claims thai were sub- milled lo the Tribunal of .\rbitration of I'aiis included not only lliose slatemenls, but also llu> statement of the amounls. Now. when this says, ".\ppendix l,v locilicd upon as a finding of fact. Tlio material jwiint to Iti' Blatfd is the nauK' of tlic ship, and tin- fad tliat slic was s('i/,<'d; a niistaivf in tlio nann' of tlic vc'ssci that soizcd iici' woiihl not allVct tlu' ri<,'ht of tliis Tribnnal to lioar tlic caso. Snj)pos<' it appears now before this Tribnnal that, as a mat ter of faet, the dates of seiznre are wronji:, bnt the name of the vessel was fjiven, and it also appeared that the claim had been made, wonld this Tribnmil serionsly e«Hisider the faet whetlur they had jnrisdiction to hear the ease becanse in the schedule of the ('onvention there had been a mistake or a total omission of the date, if the real facts connected with the case, tlu' mime of the case, the fac^t of the seizure, and the name of the vessel which had seized her, were actually !=tated and brou<;ht before the < Convention. Xow, if you take the words of the pr(>ambh> to tlw (Convention, yon will also ihid that, "Whereas, in view of the said findinffs of fact, and of the decision of the Tribunal of Arbitration concernin}; the jurisdictional rights of the I'nited States in Itehrinfj Sea, and the ri>;ht of protection of j)roperty of the I'nited States in the fur seals frt'cinentina; the islands of the I'nited States an«l under it, and the other liberil, I lie latter is to be preferred." This cites Shanks v. !)iipont. :? Teters, 242. and the (Jourt adds; "Such is the settled rule in this Court." Now. then, applying that rule to the ipiestion we have two coiistiuctioiis that I fairly contend, may be put on this sched I!'". First, tlie strict construction, that because the year 1.'.S(!is not ti;>eiially mentioned In the schedule, for that'r«'a 30 Hon that claim should be fxcludtMl. That. I say, is tlic nar- low const ruction. The main thinn to be slated iu tlie sclu'duh' is till* name of tlie vcsst'l, tlie dates mentioned in tlio schedule and the other facts ar»' merely information for the use of the Convention; the name of the vessel is the main thint; and the other part of it is merely infoniiation. Tlie only ditt'erence betwei'n the claim of 1889 and that of 188(>, so far as the "Hlack Diamond" is concerned, is this: The claim made for 188!> i-omes before this Tribunal in a little lo better position. In that we have the benetit of the findint; of facts with reference to that seizure for 188!t. The claim for 1SS(! comes before you without that Iteiieflt. but with the bene lit of all the nuestions (»f law decided l this ("onvi'iition. There is stated in the <'? True, it is a claim that arises out of certain acts diuie. j out of a < laim profc'ly presented to the Commission really nu'a'is that that claim. whether meritorious or ii<*, i^ rilled out (dice and ftu-evei-. I feel satisfied 'in ; I'l ;•»' that the Commissioners will, so far as they ca:<, anu w liv is their judgment will allow them, be astute to see th.il no claim is thrown out. or not allowed to be heard before t y 5"^ Tribunal, which, upon a fair, lu'oad and lilieral c(mstrucii m of the Convention may be considered to be within the terms thereof. Mr. Dickinson: — A few brief words in reply, if your Honours please: As to the last pro|)osition of my friend, that this claim of the "Hlack Diamond" for 188(!, may be embraced in the item "Personal Claims." in ilie schedule at- tached to the Convention, I have but this to hi;.' tlm' the gQ term "personal claims" i amed in the schedule uu' *he title of "Claims submitted to the Tribunal of .X:-; .lon at Paris." has a sifiiiiticatioii of its own within the is ' 'jM-eta tion and meaning of the proc I'dinjis of tiie I'aris : . liuna'. These claims are scheduled as liie personal claims o!' persons f0, inclusive, my friends admit they did not i)ut the "Ulack Diamimd," and the seizure of ISSti, before the Tribunal. .\re your Honours in this si»eciai case. then, to go on and find what it is not jtrovided by the t'onventioii that you can lind — that the seizure was by the authority of the Iniled States? That is not within the jtiovince of this Tribunal to find; that has already been found; and your Ibuimirs are the high setjuel to the I'aris Tribunal in this, that what it did not find your Hcmours are to find, and nothing else. Tliat is the first finding. Tan your Honours say that the I'aris Tribunal found that the "Hlack Diamond" was seized by the authority of the Tnited States? They found nothing at all about it ; and the fact ajipears on their own claim that the warning was given not bv the autiioriJy of the Iiiited States, but by an officer who had no authority to give any warning whatever. Then, as to No. 1'. another finding of fact, let me repeat that, before luoceeding with any claim, your' Honours must look to the I'aris Tribunal, as to the finding of certain facts as to that claim, before your Fbuiours can proceed, except as to the ad- ditional claims whicli are noi involved here on this point. As to thi»< second finding, can your Honours find that the "Mlack Diamcmd" in 1S8(; was seized in Mehring Sea. though that is a seizure, and probably that would not bf> material to find that this warning was made in IJehring Sea, with the other searclKs and seizui'es of vessels. The third finding is tliat the said several searches and seizures of vessels, "were made by public armed vessels of the I'nited States, the commanders of which had. at the sev- eral times when they w<'re made, from the executive depart- ment of lie' I'nited States, instructions, a copv of which is annexed her.'to. marked (M." The principle involved is whether you may take up a case as to which there was no findins; of fad by the I'aris Tribunal— aiiv other case e.xcept additional claims. The third finding was that the vessel was seized by the commander, who had, at the sevoral times when the seizures were made, instructioTis from the executive de* m I'i 32 |itirtni)>nt of flic Fnilj'd Stales, and your Honours will find thill (hilt iipplics to the "Black Diumond/' if there were u seizure. Now. iis to the fifth finding;, will .vour Honours find that the seizure wiis made, or committed, In HehriiiK Sea iit the dis- tiince fr]i(ed by the (iovernmeiit of (he rnit«'d States." (^an you look into the Award of (he Paris Tribunal 20 jiiid find (hat tliese fiirts are found, and conclusively found, by flic Trilninal before you ciin proceed with the iissessment of daniiines for the "Ulack Difimond" in 1SS(!? Did they fiiul that a vessel warned her. and thiit the vessel was armed Ihiif Wiirned her? Did tliey find thiit the commander of (h«' vessel htid ins( ructions in words and fi}j;iires, as set out in the schedule? (^iin your Ibmours find tluK as to the "Itlack Diiimoiid?" Hecaiise it is found as to every tliinfj that (he Piiris Tribuuiil seii( (o tliis Ili^li ('ommission. If eiicli is not found as to any shi|), the ipiestioii of (lie seizure or warning ^'^ of thiit ship, ciinnot come liefore the Ilifjli ('ommissioners. And your Ilonoiii's must find, lastly, that the seizur«' was adojited by tlie (ioveriiiiient of the I'nited States — the warn- iiifi was adopted by the (iovernment <»f tlu' I'nited States. Your Honours cannot find that; that is not within your Honours' duty or powers to find iis to iiny ship warned in issd; tliat is ii matter of fact. andule an iiide|ieiideiit, distinct tind pltiin new name. I think it must iippeiir conclusively to your Honours that this "libick Diiiinoiid" seizure in issti. beiiij; ii sepiirate iiml independent seizure, for which (here is a wpanite and indepeiulent claim for coiii])eiisii(ioii. ciiniiol come within (he first part of the rto s< hediile as submitted to the Paris Tribunal, because there are no (iiidiiif^s of fact here from the Paris Trilmnal for your Honours to proceed fiom. In a letter from His Kxcellency. the itritish ambassador, (o Mr. (iresham. I (ind, as 1<» what siioiild ^o into iidditional claims, ii number of cliiims tliat are not in. The t oirespoiidi-nce y;ives a piimlier i>f cliiims which do not ajipear in (he {? I think not. It is (jnile plain that the "Hlack IMamond " was not intended to he in eluded as she is not named in the schednle of additional 2(j claims, nor in the ])reamhle, altlion^ii she would come within the cliiss descrihetl within the preamble of vesstds warned or seized pricn- to the .\ward of the Paris Tribnnal. .My learned friend says that the position is not material, but your Honours will see that the I'aris Tribnnal not only con- tined the tinn- bnt they dignified it by making it material. They (jneried as to where the position of the "Trimnidi" was. when warned, and laid down that they conld not state hei' ])osition. I submit that this"I{lack IMamond" claim for lSS always called "personal claims," and scheduled and recapitulated together. Then we also find the personal claims scheduled at page 14 of the pi-esent ( "mivention. This same term, "perscmal i-laims," before the I'aris Trilninai, had been applied to the claims for arrests in l.-isd. scheduled by themselves, and also in 1S87, schedided by themselves. Now in .\rticle I. of the 60 findings of fact tlu- claim of .lames liaudin does not appear. There is no fimling of fact as to it. and it is not sent down here was a finding of fact. Hereloore the personal (daims. frmu the beginning of the I'aris Tribunal up to the filing of these separate cases by my learned friend, had always been presented together as sejiar.ite claims, but he has explained to me that for the sake of convenience land I ajipriive of iti he has attached to each claim for (he ship the personal claim for damages of the men ariesied on the slii|i. 1 ijuite agree 3 iw lO 34 that for the jturpoM*' of tiikiiifj h'slimony that wsib far bottor, iH'cauHe the raw can be closfd ax to tlic personal claim for dama^t'H at the time that the caHc of the warning or Hcizure of the ship is closed. This claim. 1 repeat, is not one of the |M>r8onal chiimH mheduled iu th«' Convention. It ix not a case which couies down here from the Paris Tribunal. It is not identitied as a claim before, the I'aris Tribunal as to which there is any tindiu^ of facts by that Tribunal. The Cununissioner ou the part of the I'nited States: — As I understand you. this case hh lirought in is not mentioned in the British case from pages I to (id inclusive. Mr. Dickinson: — It is not there, sir. and as to it, therefore, there is no finding of the Paris Tribunal. Mr. Keique: — At the suggestion of my learned friend, Mr. Peters, I will answer tJu> argtiment made by my learned ad- versary in connectiim with this particular motion. If I un- derstand his contention aright, the motion rests on the as- 20 sumption that your Honours have no ]»ower to find any facts that were not found by the Tribunal of Paris. If I rea'' ;or rectly the terms of the Convention I think it will l)e very asv t»> show that this ccmtention cannot be sustainei;, tlu' ((uestions which luul arisen betwe«'n their 30 respective (iovernments, concerning the jurisdiction of rights \>f the I'nited States in the waters of the Hehring Sea. and concerning also the preservation of the fur seal in. <»r habit- ually resorting thereto, the said sea. and the rights of tlip citizens and sujects of either country, as regards the taking of ftirseal in. or hal)itually resorting to. the said waters, were Bubmitt»*d to a Tribunal of Arttitration as therein constitut- ed." That is the only thing that was submitted to this Tribunal. Then take the second paragraph; it says: <^o "And whereas tlu' agent of tireat Itritain did. in accord- ance with the provisions of tlie said Article VIII.. suluuit to the Tribunal of .\rl)it ration certain findings of fact, which were agreed to as proved l»y llie agent of (he I'nited States. and the arbitrators did unanimously find the facts so set f<»rth to be true, as appears l»y the Award of the Triiuinal rend«'red on the l.'tth day of August. 18!»;{. And wheivas in view of the said findings of fact, and of the decision of the Triluinal of .\rl»itration concerning the juris- dictional rights of the I'nited Stales in Itehring Sea. and 50 the rights of protection, or properly of the I'nited States in the fur seals fi-e<|Uenting the islands of the Inited States in Itehring Sea, the (JovtM-nmcnt of the I'nited Stales is de sirous that, in so f;ir as its lialnlity is not already fix'd and determined by the findings of fact and the decision of sai«i Tribunal of Arltitrat.!;u. the ipiestion of suih liability should be definitely and fully settled and determine*!, and f course, I admit that your Honours are not al- lowed to find any facts in cas<'s in which the facts hav<' be<'n fovitid by the Paris Tribunal, luit the governing element ia 35 this ronveiition is tliut full coniMniBation should be awarded from the facts as found. In inswer to the questions from No. 1 to No. 5, which we find ori page U of this Appendix, Ar- ticle VI. says: "In deciding the matters submitted to the arbitnitors, it is agreed that tlie following five points shall be submitted to them, in order tliat their award shall embrace a distinct de- cision upon each of said five points, to wit: 1. What exdu sive jurisdiction in the Sea, now Icnown as the Behring Sea, lo and what exclusve rights in the seal fisheries therein, did Itussia assert and exercise prior and up to the time of tlie session of Alaska to the United States.*' I need not read these five questions, but the answers to thepe (luestions vere the basis of the respimsibility of Vm I'nited States towards (ireat Britain; and it is for tlie jiur- l)ose of ascertaining tlie amount of tliat responsibility that the present Tribunal has been formed. I, therefore, say that if the facts have been ascertained at Paris, this Tribu- nal is not allowed to make any finding of facts. This Tribu- 20 nal is bound by the facts then found. But I ssxy that if ther*> exists any claim, so that full compensation may be awarded this Tribunal is at perfect liberty to make itself any finding of facts. That is perfectly evident from "^he fact that addi- ticmal claims to tlie number of four or five have been allowed under this Convention. There were no facts found at Paris so far as the "Winnifred," for instance, is concerned. There was no finding of facts so far as the "Sayw.ard" case is con- cerned, and this Commission is surely entitled and empower- ed and instructed to find the facts as far as these are con- 30 cerned. I say that the terms of this Convention aiH» of the broadest possible kind. The object of the Convention is to ascertain the damages that have been suffered, so that full compensiition may be granted liy the United States to Great Britain. There is nothing in the Convention itself that can lim- it its terms in the seune indicate sum of moiiev had been paid In IIh- (nited States i'aptain (iandin's cla'iii would have formed part of il. and he would have lieeii entitled to a share of the distribu- tion. Excejit we can find that when the parties came to pre- pare this Convention thev had departe;e. ••|iersonal claims" beini; merely r<'feri-ed to in a general wav as desittnaled by the year in which they arose. and Ihev are not limited in any way to the personal claims as filed before the I'aris Tribunal. The Commissioner on the part of the Inited Stales: — l>o you think we have jiirisdiclion over any possible claims for these two years. ISSIJ and 1s,s7» Ml. |{ei(|ue: — Y«'s. yotir [loiiour. I think you have. The Commissioner on the part of the rnited States: — I only put the (|ueslion as a test. Do you think thai under a fair construction of the Convention we wduld have juiis<,'>;? .Mr. I'.eiqiie: — I lliiiik that the jurisdiciion is limited to these Iwo years. ISSli and l.ssT. as far as the personal claims are concerned. The terms -if the C.ouhl not be entitled lo prefer any claims for these years. I desire to call your Honours' attention av:aiii to the leller of Sir •lulian I'auiicetole. of date .lime the "ill. 1S!I4. and to impress upon yoiii' ilonours the fact that he set fiirtli this iiarticiilar vlaiin of .binies (iaiidin and writes a personal enclosure with re^rard to it. .Mr. IMckinson: — 1 desire lo make one reference to that let- ter written by Sir .lulian i'aunci fote 10 Mr. tJreshain. In enclosure IKi he spi-aks of the claim of the Master. <"aptain C-audin. for personal loss and damage. V^'.tl'l'K but in the i-cn- eral schediih* he puts in this claim with tli<' other claims that he desires to a(bl. as "K.xtra for the '.\da.' " I would like to ask my leai'iied friends on the other sir.v Hliort n'ply, wliifh n'ply w«' linvc drafted now and will b<> abl(> to ;;iv(> my h>nrn«>d fri«'nd tiiiH rvonint;. Wo will Im' H'ad.v v«t.v Hoon to no on with tlu' trial of caiw ninnbcr on«>. We arc practically ready now. Wc propoHo io take tlic caw of tlic 'Tarolcna," and pcrliapn my learned friend will lake this aH notice that thi« will be the tirHt caHO. Mr. DickiuHon: — Very well. in Mr. Peters: — We propose to go on witli the caHOfl for IRSfi aH that swmB to hh tlie best procedure. Onr intention at the prcNent time it* to foUow that up with the casen for 1SS7, and then for 1HS!>, and tlien the Hpecial cases will come <>n one by one, as they are distinct and separate ciises altoj;e(hcr. The Commissioner on tlie part of Fler Majesty: — You will have it minuted in th<> docket according; to the rules. Mr. Peters: — I shall do so today. 20 Mr. Dickinson: — We have tiled a motion to dismiss from consid(>ration before tlie Commissioners claim number twen- ty-six, entitled "Costs in the Hayward (Jase." We have tiled this statement appended to the motion, to which I will call your Honour'^ attention very briefly. "The United States submit tliis motion to the High Com- missioners with the statement that they are now pn'pared to answer any claim for sucli 'costs in the Sayward case' as liave luH'n inciirred by any person or persons, and which were 'submitted to the Tribunal of Arbitration at Paris,' or 30 any claim 'for*.oatH in Sayward case' incurred by any person or jiersons;' but if it sliall be Insisted by Her Majesty's Gov- ernment that 4-laims for expenditures in that case made by that (lovernment or by the Government of Canada, shall be presented and considered before the Commissioners, then the counsel for the United States will move the High C- mission<>rs for a poatjionement of the hearing of this motion until communication can be had with their Government." I understand the learned Attorney-General, Mr. Peters, to say that he will insist upon the present condition of the 40 claim as made, whether the costs are for the Government of Great Britain or Canada, or for a person or persons. Mr. Peters: — Since my learned friend puts that question to me 1 must distinctly say that we do insist upon the claim as put forward, namely, the sum of #(i2,(IO(); and reading the Convention as I do, I am surprised that this motion should he made. We certainly do claim that ^02,000, the exact sum mentioned tliere. Tliat we should simply claim some amount paid by some particular private individual is not the claim 'i^ lliat we put forward at all. Thei'efore, in regard to the last statement in the motion of my learned friend, we cannot for a moment make any other statement than that the sum we claim is the sum that was actually paid by the Government of Canada, throiigh, of course — so far as this Tribunal is concerned — tlie Hiitisli Government. Mr. Dickinson: — If the Commissioners prefer we will state our ])osition, and then instead of a postponement of the mo- tion we shall ask the privilege, before a decision is rendered, 60 to communicate with our Government upon the question of the understanding of the Government in respect to tlie na- ture of the claims that can be put in under "the costs in the Sayward case." As we understand the Convention, and the action of the Tribunal at Paris, no claim can be put in by any (5overnm«'nt audi as "costs in the Sayward case." ' That claim can only apply to the costs incurred by individual < laimants in pursuit of litigation, and in no case can it apply to the costs of a Government disbursing sums of money in regard to the questions which afterwards went before the ■■%■ 10 20 30 40 60 i9 Vuvh Tillmniil. We conK'nil I lint tin- UovcrnnH-nt rau no inoH' |tiit ill IliiH claiiii tliiiii tln'.v could jMit In a olaiin for tin' coHlH of idiinsfl licfoiv tlif I'ariH Tribunal, iM'cauHc tlie (IcriHion of I lull Tiihiinal lia|i|ifiM'(l to he a'lvfrHc to tli»! rnit<'iic lliis inolioii until you loiiiiuuiiiraU' witli llic 10 iiutlioiitit'H ill WaHliin^'ltiii'.' Mr. DiikiDHoii: — Yt-H. your Honour. Till- r«iiiiiiiiMsiont'r on llic pail of llcr Majcsly — There Ih no olijeition 011 llie pail of llie ''oniinissioneis. Mr. IMikinson:— »'ery well. The ('oniiniNsioner on I he part of Her .Majesty: — There is the rontiiip-ney tiiiil it iui;rhi possilily save ar;;uineiil on the mot ion. .•0 Mr. I'eters: — I have no olijertion to llie course of ]i(iHtpon- iii|; Ihe niotiuii. NN'ilh regard to other inalterH thai have lieell raised hefore this couii with referellee lo tlie two other elaiins, the judgnieiil of the t'oiniuissioners iiiiglil. I think, very well be postponed until a similar opporliinily lias been given US to roiiiinunirale with the authorities at (Mtawa. I might say that I have taken oceasion to roniniiinieate by tele graph with Sir 'luliaii raiiiirefote on the lualter, in view of the objeetions raised by my learned friend. .Mr. niekinson 30 iiiiglit perhaps wish to ('ommunicate with .Mr. Oliiey on the same matter, and |irobably the course wliicli is taken with regard to Hie Sayward would also be taken with regard to the other cases: that is. that no Judgment should be rendered on these niolions until we iuivc tiie res'i<'kin lilf anil cnlci' it iiikiii tlic I'rolonil iiidav. .^I'c von I'cadv now Mi'. I'i'icrs ? All". rclciH: — I infoi'incd I lie <'oniniiMMionci-H a few davs aj{<> thai I would iufscnt to tliini a ropv ot tin- HchcdulfH ot' clalniH i!N pi-cMt-nlfd at tin- I'aiis Tiiliunal. I now do mo, ir lu'iuK f the ori^'inal case for iMirposes of reference all throiinh the Protocols and tlie award of the I'aris Trihunal is fiom pap-s I to till, emhracinir the same mailer. Mr. I'eteis:— \\c now intend to proceed, mav it please the « oinmissKMiers, wiili the case of the -Carolena." I do m-i Ihink it will he necessary to make anv h-nythv prelimimirv I'emarks with rev:ard to that case. The (Vmimissiom-r on the part of the miK-d Slates— 1 w-ould like to know what the pleadinj-s are. Mr i-eters:-! will read tlu pl-adiiiffs, so that we nmv see low the matter aeiually stands. The pleadings are set forll. in^the statement ot .hum numl.er 1, ami the claim alle^en On ..rahont ihei'Oth May, ISMi;, ,he Taroh.na" saile.l from in, ' "^',"'' *''■'■"" "'"' '='''"'^' ^''"- "•■'■ •""«••''• was .lames Mlane. She carried a crew of nine sailors .ind hunters, and was fully e(|uipp.-d foi said voya,u... and C.r tiie liuntiim and eapture of seals. On the Isl d:i.v of .Vu-ii.^^l. I.ssti, wliiisi in llie lierinfj; .s,.;, in North Latitiii,. .'mmO; West l.on^iiliide llJ.s;.-,:! j,nd distant about (t» miles from Ihe ueaiesi land, ll ("arolena" lieiii};- then lawfully eiif-ap'ii in ilie ial;iiic; of sejils at that place was seized hy Ihe I'niled States ivveinie cutter -('orwin." The "Carolena" was towed liy said cutter to Oiinalaska and there dismantled, and sudi proc<'edin«s were afli-rwards had and taken in the I'niled Slates Oislrict Court of Alaska, at the instance of the (Joverninenl of the Inited Stales of America, thai ihe .said s.-liooner. her tackle. api>arel. outlit and carffo were condemned for a violation of the muni!'i|)al laws of Ih" Inited Slates of America relating' to the seal fishing in the waters of .Mask.i. and detained under sudi (ondemnation until alter the iihuiIIi of December. 1S,'«I7. when the return of the said schooner was offered but not aicejited on Ihe fri'oiind that Ihr- vesel liad been practically wrecked in Ihe meantime. Uy reason of the premises fiiHlier prosecution of the "'% lO 20 30 40 so 60 42 said scaling voyage dming tlic year ISSO \vm wholly prevent- ed, and the owner of said sehoner was also previ-nti'd from using her for the purposes of seal Ininting during the year 1887, as he otherwise would have done; and linally the said sehoner, her tackle, apparel, outiit and eargo were wludly lost to those interested in the same, and other loss, diunage and expense were suffered and incurred by the i)ersons so inlerest*^!. Under the facts as found in the award of the Paris Tribu- nal of Arbitration the said seizure, condemnation and deten- lion were without any warrant or right according to the prin- ciples of international law, and Iler Mritannic Majesty claims that full and comjdete com])ensation should be nmde by the and interest thereon from the diile of loss at the rate of seven per c(?ntum per annum. Mr. Peters: — Properly, I may stop there f')r 'l)e present, as the other claims relate to the personal claims of the master and m.'ite, and n>ay fairly be considered in the evidt'uce at all events. In reply to that claim the United States set tip the following defence: 1. They admit that on or about August 1st, ISOfi. at a dis- tance of about seventy-five miles from the n<'arest land, the said vessel, the "Carolena,'' was seized by tlu' Unit«'d States revenue cutter '•('orwin'' and that said seizure was made in Hering Sea and was ratified and adopted by the (lovernment of the United States. Rut it is averred on the part of the United States, that til',' said seizure was made in good faith, by officers of the T'nited States, within the line of their duty imder the author ity and mandate of the municipal laws of the United States, for a violation of the statutes of the United Stat<'s, and sucli seizure was ratified and adopted in good faith by the (Jovern- ment of the United States as for a violation of tlieir said statutes. ?.. The United States aver that, before, at the time of. and after the seizure of the said vesel. the said vessel, her ajiparel, outfit and cargo, were wholly or in part the actual pro|)erty of a citizen or citizens of the United States, and further that at the times aforesaid the i)enefi in flie said Ulaini of TTer llritannic Majesty, the representatives of the United States have no sufflcient knowledire, and as to such of them as may be held material the United States invite and require autlien lie and suitable proofs before the ITigh Commisioners." Whilst reading that section 1 think I might fairly point out to the rommissioner^ that this section is nol so mucli a (iu to the ns sessment of damages. It is more a ipu-stion of law than of fact, and it is a matter hardly in issue, and hardly to be joined on. It will be an issue of law thai may be raised on the evidence. Then they go on* 4 As to paragraph numbered r> in said claim, the T*nit(Hl 43 lO 20 40 '^o 60 States will submit to the Iligli Commissioners and will in- sist that tliey are not liable for (lamng(^ for the detention of hiu'li vessel when the seizure, as is allej!;ed and shown in said (,'laini, resulted in the total loss to the owners, of the vessel, her outfit, apparel and cargo, as of the time of said seizure; and that in any event the damages therein suggested and claimed are of \he nature of prospective profits and specula- tive diiir.ages, so uncertain ap to form no legal, equitable or suitable basis for a finding of fact upon which an assess- mei;t thereof can be predicated. 5. The United States will further insist that, so far as a proper claim for damages for total loss is concerned, the statement of the loss alleged in paragraph 7 as having arisen out of the said seizure is grossly excessive. G. As to the further amount claimed for the alleged im- proper arrest injprisonment and detention of James Ogilvie and James Hlako, persons employed upon said vessel at the time of her seizure, the I'nited States admit the arrests as stated, but deny i'le ;nii)risonment and statements of fact in- cident thereto as detailed in the statement of the British Claim; and they aver that such arrests and all subsequent jtroceedings thereon by the officials of the United States were made, entered upon and had. in good faith, under the man- date and autho;-ity of the municipal laws of the United States, for a violation of the statutes of the United States; and they aver that the only damages to be considered, in case of any liability on the part of the United States for such arrests and detentions, are those for actual pecuniary loss and are not in their nature puntive or aggravated dam- ages. 7. The United States do not admit any liability on this claim. To that a reply has been put in on the part of Her Brittanic Majesty, and it is as follows. 1. Her Britannic Majesty joins issue on paragraphs 1, 4, T). and (i of the reply of tlie United States, except in so far ns tliey contain admissions. 2. in further answer to the second part of said paragraph 1, Her Britannic Majt-stv submits that the same constitutes no defence to Mer Majesty's claim or any i)art thereof. .'{. .\s to paragrai>li 2, Her Britannic Majesty' says that (he above-named schoner was found by the Tribunal of Arbi- tration at Paris to be a British vessel, and stibmits that it is not open to the Conimisiouers, acting under tlH> Bering Sea (Jlaims Convention, to cntiuire as to her ownership; the said finding of facts Iteing conclusive so far as this Commission is concerned. 4. And in the alternative and in further answer to said paragraph 2. Her Britannic Jfajesty submits that even if such inquiry can be entered upon, it should be limited to the ques- tion of the actual uw '.'I'ship of the said vessel only, €and that as between nations, iiul should not in any event «'xtend as to the benefl<'ial im !';'st in the whole or a part of the vessel, her apparel, outfi md cargo; or as to whether her voyage was entered upon and prosecuted in whole or in part for the benefit of a citizen or citizens of the Ignited States. .5. In further answer to said paragraph 2, Her Britannic Maj<>sty denies each and every of the allegations of fact there- in contained. f). Her Britannic iTajesty further siibmits that according to the principh>s of international law, the practice obtaining annnig nations, and the terms of the Bering Sea Claims Con- vention, the allegaiions contained in the said Reply even if proved, do not constitutt any defence to the Claim for com- pensation set forth in the said Statement of Claim. These pleadings relate to questions of fact and certain \\ fl 20 44 qiiestionM of law. A vt-rv sniitll ixdlioii of the issues Hi- upon 0111- »i(l? to pro\«'. All tlic !ill»'},'iilioiis willi rt'nard (o the ownt'i'sliip of (lie vcssi'l. if Hu'V can lie laiscd at all. must Ik' proved l»,v ni.v learned friend. With re that question; so we shall confine ourselves now to puttinf; before the ('(mtmissioners evidence which we think bears upon such of the issues as it is Incumbent on us to prove. The Commissioner on the |»art of the I'nited States:— .\m! you not bound to nuike a prima facie casi' as to naliou- ality, under the tirst two lines of your claim? Mr. Peters: — Inder the tirst two lines of our claim we allege that she is a registered ship, and that is admitted. Mr. Dickinson: — Tliere is no admission, but I have no doubt they will show a Mritish He^istry. your Honour. Mr. I'eters: — I intend as a matter of fact to put in tlic very docnnu-nt which was taken from this vessel, or a copy of it, I have not the ori<;inal. but my learned friend has fur- nished me with a copy of it — the very document which tips vessel caried at the time she was seized. That is all the 30 evidenio into that iiuiMiiou at all. whi<-h I do not admit. U'e are (juite prepared to ic*ve tint evidence, — in fact it will come out in the course of this cise. - and I think there will be no (|uestiou at all thai this ship SO did have a Hritish rejjister. .Vow these beiufj the issues, we piopose to lay tli"' evid'-nce bef(U'e your Honours sttmet liinir as follows: Tiie fad lh.it tliai this seizure took place in Isst!. of course iiiaUcs ii dilli- cii't for us to obtain tl e i|iiantity ■>( evidence we woiilil like to v thai were on board of her at th»' time of seizure, but few are oblaiiiable.. .\s a miilter of fact I am <'rive their evideuce ill this matter. We can. how ever, obtain I lie fvideme of smiie of tlic iiicii who wen- in the other ships at llie time (lie seizures look jilace. ships that were also seized, ami men who ficin personal knowlcd«e have a certain anuiiint of information, at all events, as lo what tool; place after the seizures were made. Your Honours will see that the seizures ia IH.Sti all took jdan' about the sanii' time. 45 lO 20 Tlic first iiiid sccdiul of Ant;ust were I lie dates of all the »»'i/. iiics, and we liavc sonic of tlic wiliii'sscs from some of tlic otiicr ships wliicli wcri- si'iz< d at tliat time, who will lu' abh- to fi\\t\ as cxjM'rienccil eye witnesses, the facts that took place after the seizures. I propose, first, to lay before this CornniisMion the diplo- matic correspondence which took plai>(ise in the tir.st instance, in order (o luini; the matter at once before (lie com- tnissioners. to point ont to your Honours the parts of the cov respondence that we deem ajtply to the jtresent case. The facts, as your Honours are now aware, are. that the seizure of that vessel took place on the first day of August. ISSti. 1 refer to Senate Executive Document. No." 100. Fiftieth Congress siM-ond session, that being a message from the President of the f'nited States transmitting to the Senate the se lo ((ime to tile actual evidence Hi\cn in the case, which is femid beginning at page 1!>. There the heading is 40 30 l^' TIIK IMTKI) STATKS IHSTHICT CtMIM- IN AM» F()l{ THK hISTHKT OK AL.VSKA. IMTI-Mt STATKS (»F AMKKK A. The I'nitcd Stat<-s of .\merica vs. The Schooner '•( "arolena." \o. .'1. Dcjiosition III' witnesses swi.iii ;ind e.Niiinined liefoie me on liie Ttt. (lay iif Sepicniber, .\.l). l>i <(iiiiiniied b> me. in said action Iheii and llieic peiidiny in said (lisliict conil beiween the lulled Stales as plaliiMlT and iIk scliooner ("arolena as (lef( iidanl. (Ill beliair of and al Ilie liisiaiice ef (lie siiid jdain- -Q till', the I'liiied Siales. and iipmi notice nf Hie lime and jilace of taking of said (h posilions, sei\cd upon -lames Ulake. the male of said scl iier. he beliiy the only (dticer of said scliooner upon wIkhii sei\ ice could be made, and n|Min W. Clark. I';s(|.. his allorne\. Ilie owners of said scli.Miiier belli"'- unknown and willioiii ilie jiiilsdicilon of lliis couii. The Coiiimissioiier on the part of the Inited .•^liHes: — I.s thi.H a part of your opeiiliif:, or are you olt'ering it as evidence? .Mr. reters: — I ptopose lo point out the part 1 want to give ill evidence. The ('onimissioiier on Hie part of the ["niled States: Von are not otTerliig the evidence now ? .Mr. I'eleis:^l iH'ojioxe lo stale lo the Court what parts I desire to put ill evidence, and llien telldei- It. In block, wllhout going over It again. The wllness called was Captain C. A. .\bliey. who. being duly s\v(Mii. deposes and sa\s: 63 lO 46 Captiiin ('. A. Abboy, being duly sworn, deiiost'H and says; Q. State your name and occupation. — A. (.'ajttain C .A. Ab- bey, in tile I'nited Htates Revenue Marine Strvice, at present in command of the U. K. revenue steamer "Corwin" on sjH'cial duty in Alaslian waters, for tlie protection of tlie seal islands and of the (Joveniment interests in Alaska generally. (J. What were you doing and what (Hcurred on the 1st of August last in the line of your duty? — A. C'ruislng in Hi>riug Sea about seventy-flve miles south-southeast from St. tleorge's Island, and I found the Hritish schooner "C'arolena"' of Vic- toria, H. ('., drifting with sails down. Her bcwits were ab- sent and sho was evidently a sealer. I saw dead seals lying npon her forward deck; inquired of the schooner in which direction her boats were. Mr. Peters: — I simi)ly call the attention of the Commis- sioners to this particular evidence, with the view of pointin-^ out that at the very time this seizure took place the vessel was actually engaged in seal fishing. He says 20 I then ordered her to be seized by Lieut. Cantwell for kill- ing fur-seal in the waters of Alaska, took her in tow and pmci*eded to hunt up her boats, all four of which I found with freshly-killed fur-seal in them, arms, ammunition and hunters, some of whom I saw sh(M)ting at the seal in the water. These boats all went on board the "Carolena." On this evidence I caused the vessel to be seized by Lieut. <.'ant- well. I took her in tow and proceeded with her to Ouna- laska, where I placed the vessel, tackle, cargo, furniture, and ^o appurtenances in charge of Deputy I'. S. Marshal Issmc An- derson, of Ounalaska; the cargo of fur-seals being stored in "Keuch," in one of the warehouses of the Alaska Commercial Company, and under seal. The arms and ammunition of the vessel I took on board the "Corwin" and brought to Sitka and delivered into the custody of the U. S. marshal there. The vessel, tackle, furniture and cargo are now in the cus- tody of the U. S. nmrshal of this district. Q. Was this the vessel against which this libel of informa- tion was flliHl? — A. It is. 40 Q. Did all this occur within the waters of Alaska and the Territorv of Alaska, and within the jurisdiction of this court? —A. It did. Q. Did this occur within the waters of the sea navigable for vessels of ten (l(h tons burden or over? — A. It did. C. A. ABHEY. Subscribed and sworn to before me this Dth day of Sep- tember, A.D. 1886, after having been read over by me to de- jtoneut. ANDREW T. LEWIS, 50 Clerk. Then the next witness is called. He is Lieutenant Cant- well. He is asked to state his name, and so forth, and he does so. He is asked Lieutenant John C. Cantwell, being duly sworn, deposes and says: Q. State your name, occupation and age? — A. John C. Cant- well, third lieutenant, l'. S. Marine Service, at present on 60 duty on the V. S. Revenue sleamer "Corwin," and over tlie age of twenty one vears. '.id seal upon her deck and the <-aptaiu admitted that he was «>ugag(Hl in taking seal, and that four of the schooner's boats were at the time 47 iO 20 30 40 ^o 63 al)M<'iit from tli<> vessel enpif;ed in killing seals. I si);nnlk>(1 tliis fiict to Captain Abbey and he directed me to seize the vessel, wliieh I did. and the "Corwin" took ns in tow. Q. Do you retoguiiie these papers? — A. I do. This paper marked (Kx. 1) is the certifieate of registry of the schooner "Carolena." of N'ietoria. H. (-. (Said eertlticate is dated Manli 'Jlst. 1S70. and represents said schooner as of 8.1))() )(»ns burden, and owned by Francis Armstrong, of Victoria, H. r.). This ])aiK'r uuirked (Kx. J) is the bill of health of said schooner. (Said l»ill of lu'altli is dated at N'ictoria, H. <•., May l!Mh. ISISG. and reprewnts said schooner "Carolena" as then ready to depai-t for Hering Sea and Okhotsk Sea and other places beyond the Sea. with James Ogilvie, master, and eU'ven jtersons, including said master.) This paper marked (K.\. Kl is the coasting license of said schooner. (Said li- cense is in tile usual form, to James ()gilvi(\ master of the schooner "Carolena," dated at Victoria. 15. ('.. Feb. Kith, IHHti, and in terms expires on the .'Ulth day of June, 1S8(».) This l>aiMT marked (Kx. L) is the clearance of said schooner. (Said clearance is for sjiid scho!|S(j, after having been read over by me to deiio- n( lit. (SKAL.) ANDREW T. LEWIS, Clerk r. S. Dist. Court. TIh'U John V. Rhodes is examined, and he says: .John I'. Rhodes, being duly sworn, deposes anl says: Q. State your name, age and occupation. — A. John I'. Rhodes Ineut. V. S. Revenue Marine, and at present on duty on the r. S. revenue steamer "Corwin,'' and over tli(> age of 111 years. (^ State what arms and annnunition were seized on the schooner "<"arolena" at the time of her seizure. — .\. 4 rities, 1 mu.Hket. .") shotguns, 171 shotgun cartridges, I?;':? rilie lar- t ridges. Hi bags buckshot, ] bag of bullets, 4(» bags of wads, 21 boxes wads, in boxes primers, IJ boxes caps, 1)1 lbs. powdei". (>. Were there any nautical instruments seized on the Car- oh-ija except what is included in the general iuventorv"' — A. 1 octant. 1 quadrant. Q- — What has become of this projMM-ty? A. — It has all been delivered to the V. S. Marshal at Sitka, and is now in his custody. JOHN U. RHODES. Subscribed and sworn to before me this 9th day of Sep- tember. A.I). 188G, after having been read over by. me to deponent. (SEAL.) ANDREW T. LEWIS, tnerk r. S. Dist. Court. Mr. Peters:— There is a witness named Douglas, to whose evidence I wish particularly to call the attention of the Commissioners at this time. r" 20 ,S« -Mr. Ditkiiiso?):— (H' rodu( c pul under oath, and examined before the <.'oui't. \Ve caiMiof be bound by the testimony of a stran- ^^'1', by that of a mere employee, or that of a jiilot wlio may liap]ieii to have been called in the I>i.«trict t'oiirt td" the Cnited Slates at Alaska. If it makes at all for the case of tireat liritain upon the assessment of damap's. or upon any otiier material fact in the healing' befcue the t'ommission on these ipiestions, we are certainly not bound by it, simply be- cause the I'resident transmitted all tlie documents ]iro and con — whatever was in the Kxecutive Office or any executive department of llie (iovernment — to Congress. Uy so doin);. he did not certify that ilie Inited States took any state- ments of men such as this, or the statemeiil of any man who writes a letter, or who testitles. as the truth. I'ossibly my friend proposes lo jio on and read the tesliuiony of the wit- nesses for the ••( 'aroleiia'" in iIk' .Maska Court. .Mr. I'etei's: — I do not. -Mr. lUckiiisoii : — I'.ul we submit that we are not bound by the slatemeiit of any part\' on the ^'eiieral subject of sealing, or as to any other mailer vvhicli is material on the issue here, simply because il is jiriiited in llie <'Xeciitive document trans- mittiiiLT infoimaiioii. 40 50 60 ^Ir. I'elers: — 1 do iKil for ii moiiieni contend becam-c a let- ter or any other |iioc<'ediiiy is piinied in an execu- tive docuiiKMil. liial iheicfKrc, il bcc: m 's evidence iis against the ( io\enimeiil tiial allows il lo be priiit<<»^. Sucli a ciiiitinlicrii could mil be made; but I do submit lliis: when llie rnili d Slates (iovern- iiii'iil take certain ](r'icec(liiios a^aiiisl a slii|» of ours, I have a iii;lil lo slmw wlia! those iiroceediiiffs were, what e\idence I hey i'ii(ler«(l aiiainsl us, and on what evidence iliey coiidemnel us. 1 ;iMi lakin;; llie exidence that they (hose lo I'ely o!i Iheinsehes. II may lia\e been ti'iie. or it may not have been irMe, I am not uoiii;; lu iinpiire iiilo that tad. Now. ile-n. wlieii we come and say ilial the condemn- ation should not have been made, we have the rij^ht to lake lliebellelil of l!ie evidelici- Iliey ihemselves j^ave. I do ikiI lor a nioiiieiii contend Ilia; I can use llie evidence that we };ave before Ilia; iu(|nii-y; bill here they broiii;lil a proceedinji- atrainsi our sliiji. tlie\- I'alled certain witnesses to jirove what that ship haickiiison:--1{iil. may il please the Coiii'l, the fad of the seizure for sealiii;;' is admitted; i|ie fad of the seizure of the ship, caivo and ei|uipmeiil is admilled. Now, il is unnecessary for my friend In show wlial facts were pre- sented, because llie 'rribmial of .\ibilralion al I'aris found the fad ilial. if Iliis was a Krilisli vessi'l. llie seizure was illegal and the condeiiinaiioii was illej;al. There is no doubt 49 lO 20 30 •|0 50 60 iibout it. It is iiiiut'cctisary for my friciulH to hIiow tliat ovit npiin, and tliut question of whctlK-r that seizim- was l«'j;al oi- illfgal is loniluded by the ('onv«'nt;on itself, and your llonoui-s Ko into no i|uestion wliieh is co'ielnded by tlie Con- vention. You e4innot, because under the second ( lause of Ar- ticle III. you arir empowered to administer and receive every (lueslitm of fact not found by the Tribunal of Arbitration. That Tribunal (tf Arbitration settled the question of the seiz- ure, s(» far as Hiilish vessels were concerned, as illegal. When they settled that she was seized beycuid the lejial distance from land, they have settled that the condemnation must therefore have been illegal. Those (lueslions are adjusted, and, if she is a Itritish ves^sel, they have settled that tlie sole (juestiou remaining is as to the damage that accrued to the owner. Mr. I'eters; — ' )u thsit very j)oint it would appear that this I vidence must be all()w»>d. \ow let us refer back for a mo- ment. I hav(^ already read the evidence of Mr. Uhodes, which evidence was given on behalf of the I'nited States and adopted by them. Mr. Uhodes states that there were certain ritles, certain ann)iunition, and certain other things seized. Does mv learned friend contend that I canntit read that. Mr. Dickiusoo: — I do not object to that. Mr. I'eters: — Is not that just as objectionable as the evi- dence of Mr. Douglas? On what ground is the one admis- sible and the other not admissible? It is admissible because it is evidence tendered by the United States, and whether ten- dered by direct authority or not, it must be taken to have been done because the ease was conducted by some i>erson acting on behalf of the Distri(;t Attorney. That evidence was tendered by them, adopted by the I'nited States and the condemnation mad«' on that evidence was adopted. Now, my learned friend says, with regard to the evid«'nce of Khodes, that it is adir.issibh'. Why? It is admissible be- cause the I'nited States thems<'lves gave that evidence, and they would not have given it iinless they believed that the evidence was genuine and we ar<' allowed to take advantage' of it. Now, we come to the next (|Uestion: My learned friend says there are certain things that have been admitted and found by the Tribunal of Arbitration that we m. We can only prove that by showing their own view of it. and T submit that I can read that »'vi- dt'uce. Mr. Dickinson: — The Douglas testimony, as I iinderstan<1 it, goes into the question of fur seal life, "the method of tak- ing the seal, and so on, as your Honours will see on looking at that testimony. The romniissioner on the part of Her Majestv:— Is this class of testimony voluminous. Mr. Peters: — There is only one witness. Mr. Dickinson— I stiggest that your Honours hear it, and i BBH, lO 20 30 40 5© 69 lit! 50 then .vour IlonourH will wc that It cannot pooHibly bind tlie Vnitt'd HtatcH, iind tln-rofoiv cannut be ovidenc*' her*'. Mr. IVttMH; — I would like to make this remark: Vou are sit- ting not HM an ordinary t-oui-t of justice, but aa a ConimiH- sion to inveHti$;ale tlieHe matterH, with the poHHibilit.v that, in eaHe of ditferen«'e, it may hav*- to n«> to a third arbitrator; and, with that view of the rase, ou>;ht the rule not to be adopted rather to take in everytliiuK tluit may, by any fair leaHonable arKumenr. be conHidt-red aH beariuK upon the (|ueHtions l)etween (lie parties, so that hereafter if such an unfortunate thing should ortiir as a reference to a third arbi- trator, the record would be complete on everything that either party contends is of value? In addition to that, thiH very record wa^* in. and made a part of, the case of the United States at the Taris Triluinal. The <.'onimiasioner on the part of the Tnited States: -L,t me Hsk you the.se questions: We are autliorized to r'ceive all suitable, authentic testimony. You are otTcring here what ia really hearsay evidence upon a certain proposition. Have not you a better class of evidence on that same propo- sition? l>o you want to ojien the door which will after- wards be used to flood this Commission with an immense amount of documentary evidence? We do not know how much there may be of it. Mr. Peters: — I submit that this whole record is proper evi- dence to be laid before this Tribun.il. The record of the pro- ceeding which the United States (lovernment took against this ship and everything in thai record. Tt is evidence which they themselves put forward, and which they themselves ad- opted in the most formal manner by adopting the condemna- tion made upon that evidence. There can be no better class of evidence. And if they come forward and allege and at- tempt to prove that such and such facts did exist, surely that can b«' used against them. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — 1 did not intend to have you argue the admissibility of this evi- d«'nce in the sti-ict sens*'. I think that it is ])robably the view of the Commissioners that wliatever evidente g8 in here, especially in consideration of the fact that there is a jiossibility of an umpire is largely under the control of Counsel on hotli sid«'s. 1 think that is tlie view of the Com- missioners, and we will sift it oul to suit ourselveu hereafter. My point was whether yoii deemed it necessary to open the door ill this way. Do you consider that if A B brings a suit against C I), and there is afterwards another suit between the same parties, that you can put into the s<'cond suit all the evidence that .\ U offered in tlie first suit? Mr. Peters: — 1 cannot altogdher agree that it stands in that position. I submit that in reality the proceedings here are but a continuation of the proceedings at the Paris Tri- bunal. The Commissioni r on the part of the I'nited States: — 1 did not intend on my part to ask yon to argue it. The Commis- sioners are very much of the opinion that they have got to h't <'ounsel <'ontroI the evidence that will come in. Of course there may l>e stmie things that Ihe Commissioners will seee are iniidmissible . I merely ask you the question whether ycni are not o]>ening a very wide door. Mr. Pet<'rs:— : will say that, so far as we are concerned, it may ]iossibly open the door in the way you suggest; but T can assure the <'ommissijot her on the rocks, and the (»wner of the vessel claimed she was "lioirHcd."' We liad a ]ihotop;ra|)h showing she was not "ho^ip'd." The oiher side objected, and the Judije said, he would have to look at it to see whether it was admissible or not. However, we are both agreed that Counsel must prove their own case. The f'onimissioner on the part of Her Majesty:— And i)rob- ably at a later staj^e we would be helped by fuller arguments 20 on the law points involved as bearing on the evidence. Mr. Peters: — This is the statement he mak«'8- J. H. Douglass being duly sworn deposes and says: il. State your name, age and occupation. — A. J. H. Doug- lass; am over the age of 21 years; am a jnlot in the revenue- marine service of the I'. S., and have been so for wven years last past. ] am now. and on the first of August, IH.Sti. was, l»ilot on the revenue steamer "Corwin." Q. State what experience you have had in tlu- fur-sealing business and your knowledge of the habits of the fur-seal. — A. I have been cruising for more than 15 years oil" and on in Alaskan waters, always as an officer or pilot, and have visited the I'ribylotf Islands, St. I'aul and St. (ieorge, several hundred times, and am j)erfectly familiar with the sealing business as conducted on tlit»S4' islands and understand the migrating habits of the fur-seal. From about the 1st of May to about the 1st of July of each year the fur-seal is migrating north through the Tnimak and Akutan passes t<> these islands for breeding purp(>8es. They go to no other lo jtlace in the known world except these islands and ('oi)j»er Islands for breeding purposes. After the breeding season of about a month they begin to migrate south, and until in Xovember of each year are migrating south through Hering Sea. During this season from May till Novenilx'r the fur- seal are plenty in the waters adjacent to the I'ribylotf Islands and are migrating to and fi-om tli'S(> islands, and are at all times very plenty b«'tv/<'eii rai;ni.k pass and said islands in a track about .'{0 miles wide, wiich seems to be their high- way to and from said islands. The schooner 't'arolena" and 50 her boats when seized were directly iu this tract. I was present at time of seizure. J. H. DOrc.LASS. Subscribed and sworn to before me this !»tli day of SepI em- ber, A. I>. IHJSt), after having been read over by me lo depo- nent. ' (Sr.AL.) ANDREV' T. LEWIS, Clerk r. S. Dist. "ourl. Mr. Dickinson: — I suppose to preserve our rights, may it (5o jdease your Honours, when a class of testimony wiiich may embrace a great many volumes, is <(tfered, we should inter pose our view agaiuwi it upon the record, very brieflly. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — This I un- derstand is objected to. Mr Teters:— The next witness called is Thomas Singleton. He is asked to state his name and so forth. ■.r^ ^ lO 52 ThoiitiiH KiiiKli'toii, iM-iii^ (lulv Hwoiii. (It'jHiHfH and wivh' il Htiitf your naiiu'. iik<' "«"• occuputhm.— A. Tlionia* Hiii- jilt'tdii; ;iiii o\<'r tile ani' ol L'l .vt'aiH; aiwl am a seaman. Wan fiiililovcd on tln' stt-amer 'Torwin" on tlit* IkI day of AuKHHt. 1SS«J. \vln'n tlu' "<'arol('na" was sflzt'd. I wan Hcnt on board the •Tiirolfna" rijilif after the seiznii'. and naw a number of dead furseal on deck, and some of tlieni had f'lr on them Saw aim) some fresli fur seal Mkins in the lioats. THOMAS SINtJLKTOX. Subscribed and sworn to before me liiis Hth day »>f Sep- teniber, iHsti. after iiavinu: been read over bv nip to deponent. (SHAI..» AM»m:\V T. l.KWIS. ("leik r. S. Mist. ("ouit. 40 " Mr. IVters:— I am putting thin in in show that at that time tliey were actually catching sealH. and I put it in as the best evidence we can {n't on tlial j>oint. for tlie rt-asou that we «au nddu«-e no pei-Mou «)n board at the time of Hei/jire. Then I wish *® to put in an amended libel, jiaffe lili. For some reason the IHHtrict Attorney for Alaska tiled an amended libel. I wish to put that libel ill |iarticiilarly refeirinn to that part of It wheiv it sets out what articles were seized. The statements s«'t out in the amended libel are more full than in the original libel. On September 2(ttli. 188(i, was tiled the followinj; amended libel of information: 30 IN THK INITKI) STATKS DISTUKT t.'Ol'FtT IN ANI> FOR TlIF niSTKMT OF AI.ASKA. rXITRD STAfKS OF .\MKmcA. AltJlST. SI'KflAI. TKfm. ISSC. To the Honorable Lafayelt(> Dawson, .hid{j;e of said District Court: The amended libel of infoniiaticui of .M. D. Mall, attorney for the Inited States for the District of .Maska, who prose cutes on behalf of said I'nited States. ans. twine, oars, ])addles, rowlocks, etc.; lamps, tanks, provisions. (iSo fur-seal skins, 12 pup seal skins, 1 hair seal skin, 4 ritles. ."> shotguns, and ammunition for same, and all other propei-ty found upon or appurtenant to said scli'i M ■% I 10 20 30 40 ^o 60 S3 Tlinf BiiUl vcHW'l. Imt caiitaln. oflltcrs and ii««w were tlion niitl tht'H' found t'lijtnm'd in kllliiiK furwiilH within llic liinitH of AiuHlia Tcniior.v. and in »ln' waK-iH ii:t'r»'<»f. in violalimi of wction I'.dVi of tin- Ui-viHcd S(alii«i'K of lln' lnit»'d Ktatt'M. That all the Haid jiropt'it.v, aft<'r lM'iii>r wizt'd an afon-wiid. wan brouj{hl into (Iw- jioit of OnnahiHiia, in stiid T«'rri(oiT. and dflivcrt'd into the l»«M'|»in>r or iHaar AndcrscMi. a dt-pnty I'.S. mai-Hhal of this dintrict, with the cxcfption of the wiid ainiH and ammunition, which lattiT were broutrht into the jKUt of Sltlia. in Haid diHtiict. and turned over to tht- V H. marnhal of thiH district, and all of Haid property in now withii the judicial district of Alaska. United HIateH of America. And tlie Haid M. I». Hall, attorney as aforesaid, further in- forms and alletfes; That on the Ist day of Aiijjust. IHSti, .lanien Mlake and cer- tain other persons whone names are to said ['. S. attovney unknown, who were then and thi-re ennat^ed on board of the said sdiooner "Caroiena." under the direction and i>y the authority of James (>nilvie. tlien and there master of said schooner, enjjaired in killin); and did kill, in.the Territory and DiBtricI of Alaska, and in the waterH thereof, to wit. 2»t fur- seals. in violation of secti(m lit'))! of (he |{«>vise«l Statutes of the I'nited States, in such cases made and provided. That the said «iM.') fur seal skins, 1'-' pu|>-seal skins, and 1 hairstnil skin, and other noods so seized on board of s»iid schcxmer "darolena" constituted tlw car^jo of said scho(mer at the time of the killing of said fur seals and at the time of said seizure. And said attorney saith that all and siiiH'ilar the jiremises were and are true and within the admiralty and maritime jurisdicticm «if the T'nited States and of this lionoral)le court, and that by reason thereof, and liy force of the statutes in such cases made and pr<»vided, the aforementicun'd schooner, bein}{ a vessel of over 20 tons iuirden, and her said taiuiry. I take that correspondence from the same executive document I have aln'ndy referred to. Mr. Dickinson: — Between tlie Ctoverninenls? *"..!L. Mr. Peters: — Between the Governments. The Commissioner on (he j>art of tlie United Stat«>s:— Now Mr. Peters I understood you to say that you intended to offer this en bloc after yon pot throuffh reading it. Mr. Peters: — Yes, en bloc. 1 propose after 1 liave read the lO 30 3" 40 50 60 54 rorri-H|iont1<-iM'(> to tcnilfr it t'li Moc iih niarkiMl. M,v It'iinuMl frit'iitl Mill proliiibl.v iiot<- if lli<'r«> In iiii.v ohjctiioii iih I pi iiliniH, III oiiit'r h» li«> Hiiic to lie corn-rt I will H'U-v li» tlicm' li,v iiuiiilirr. tli«' ri>|MM-t('r tiikiiii; il«)Wii the iiiinihfr ito tliiil tlicro niii Im- no iiiistiilit'. Xo. 1 Ih II letter from Hir li. Hiukvillc Wi-Ht to Mr. lliivnnl, «liit(«l till- 27tli of Hfpt Im'I-, IMHt;; Kir L. M. Sackvllli' \\\mt to Mr. llii.viird. NViiNliiiintoii, Hcptciiibcr IJT. IMSti. (Hccclvfd Hcptt'iiilMM* 2S.) Kir: 1 litivi' tin- Ikhiim- to iiiforin .von tiitit ilor MiijvHt.v'H (iovt'i-nnwiit liiivc ivci'lvcd a tclcgriiiii from tlu' oomniiinder- in fliii>f of llcr MiijcHtvV naviil forn'H on tin' i'acitic Htation rt'HpcrtiiiK tlii> alleged H*'i/.nr*> of tlir*>4' MritiHli (Ndiimbian wal HcliooncrH liv tlic I'liitcd KtatcH rcvcnnt' crnlwr "Corwiii," and I am in coiiNfiinfiic*' iiiNlrin-ti'd to r*M|ii('Ht t«) lu' fiirniHlMMl witii liny ]iarti Tnitod KtiitoH (Jovcrninont ina.v poHHt'HK rclaliv*' to lliiH occnrrcnit'. I have. etc.. L. K. K.XrKVIM.p] WKKT. That l<>ttii' WiiH t'ollowcd b.v niunln'r L', dated Hit' LMhI of compensation. I liave, etc., L. K. KACKVILLK WEKT. Then follows number '\, a letter friun the f<]ari ot bl(h-slei|;li to Kir Kackvilli' West, which is a leiifjtliy letter. |)erliaps T had better read only part of it: \o. :?. • Karl of Iddesleifjh to Kir LJ K. Kackville W.'st. Foreign '< )ttice. <>ctrted seizure by the I'nite "Corwin" of three <"ana{lit <>f laiid. wln'tt tln',v were tiikcn jMww'HMiim of. on or iiImhii the Int AukiikI hiMl. bv Ihi- riiilfd HtiilfH ii'Vi'inif niltcr 'Toiwin"— tin- •Tiiioliiia ■ in liilitiitlc 't:>M iioitli. ioii|;iHi«li'. \i>H::,A wcmI ; the ••Oiiwiini" in liititiidf 'lO:'!!' iiorlli. loiiKiludr KIT:.") w»'arH. wnt b.v the Htcanicr "St. I'anl" to Han rranriHco. <"al.. and tlwn ti'inu'd adrift, wldU* tlic crew of tl Onward" wwv kept at {iven in the Alankan. a newH- l»aper piibliHhed at Sitka, in the Territory of Alanka. and dattMl the 4th Se|»teniber, IHH«. it iw reported: ll.) That the maHter and mate of tlie KelMHmer "Thopnt I'nited StateH DiHtriet t'ourt at Sitka, on the :red as comprised within the waters r. mink, marten, sable or fur seal, or other fur l)earin^ animal or animals ou the shores of Alaska or in the Helirin^: Sea east of 1!K{ de- HrecH of west loii(;itud<>, tiie jury should find the defendants tfuilty. and assess their |Minisiimeiit separately at a line of not h-sN than |I2I)II nor niori' than 4>l.tMMi. or imprisonment not more than six montlis. or by liotli siicli fine iwithin the limits herein set forthi and iiii]M'isonnient." (4) That the jury brounht in a verdict of tfuilfy against tlie )iriH(mers. in accordance wiili which tlie master of the "Thornton," Hans (lUttounseii. was sentenced to imprlMm ment for thirty days, and t<) pay a fine of ?."ttHl; and the mate of the "Thorntcm," Norman, was sentenced to iin|>risonnient for thirty days, and to pay a tine of $:W()\ which terms of im- prisonment are presumably now beinjj carried int now being intlieted on the master and mate of the "Thoratcm." Von will observe, from the facts given above, that the au- thorities of the T'nited States app<'ar to lay claim to the sole lO 56 wtv«'r«'i}jnt,v of tlint jmrt of ]t(>liriii^' S«»a l.vinn cast of tlio wt'stt'i'ly bouiuliiry of Alaska, an d«'tin«*«l in the fii-Ht article of flu' treaty coiicluded lM't\v«'('ii llic I'liilcd Htatts and KuHHia ill 1S(J7, by which Alaska was ceded lo the I'liilejl States, and which inclndes a stretch of sea «'xtendins in its widest j»art some (i(M» or TOO miles easterly (westerly?) from the mainland of Alaska. In sn]>])ort of this claim, those anthorities are alle};»>«l to have interfered with the peaceful and lawful occnpaficm of (^inadian citizens on the hin;h seas, to have taken possession of their ships, to have subjected their proiKU'ty to forfeiture, and to have visited upon tiu'ir jMM'sons the indijj;nity of im- ])risonment. Such proceedinjis. if correctly reported, would appear to have been in violation of the admitted princii>les of interna- tional law. I request that yrove to be correct, the ht to be read in evidence was jjiior to the treaty — prior lo the iii'oceedinp;s of the Paris Tribunal — and that it bears wholly upon facts found by the Tiibunal of Arbitration, and is not admissible here before the C^cMumissioners. and Ihe <'ommissioners are not enijiowere«l to r»'ceiv<> it bv Article HI. 5'^ 60 Mr. Peters: — I will simi»ly state that whilst it does bear to a certain extent on the facts found bv the Paris Tnbunal. it bears materially j>arent whether the fact that these claims were pressed pnmiptly or not is a material matter for the Commis- sion. I now refer to numluM- 4. a letter from Mr. Havard to Sir L S. West, dated \ovend)er V2. ISSifi: 1..1 J 57 -to 60 r- ■ NO. 4. Mr. KajJinl to Rir L. S.West. Dcpju-tnu'iit of State, Washington, Nowuibor 12, ISSC. Sir: The delay in ni.v reply to your letters of SeptenilH'r 27 and Oetober 21, asking for the information in my jtosses- sion foncerning the seixure by the United States r«*\-enae cutter <;orwln, in the Hei'ing Sea, of Hritish vesw^ls, for an allegtHl violation of the laws of the Unitt'd States in rela- tion to the Alaskan seal tishenes, has been caused by my waiting to r«'<«'ive from the Tre'isury Department the infor- matiim you desired. 1 tender the fart in apology for tlie delay and as the reason for my silence, and, repeating wl1.1t I said verbally to you in our conversation this morning,, I am still waiting full and anthenlii- reports of the judicial trial and judgment in the (-ases of the wMzures referred to. My application to my colleague, the Attorney-tJeneral, to procure an authentic report of these proceedings was prompt- ly made, and the delay in furnishing the rej)ort doubtless has arisen from the remoteness of the place of trial. So s(K)n as I am enabled I will convey to you the facts as ascertained in the trial and the rulings of law as applied by the court. I take leave also to aciknowledge your communication of the 21st of October, infonning me that you had been in- structed by the Earl of Iddesleigli, Her Majesty's principal secretary of state for foreign affairs, to protest against the seizure of the vessels above referrn'd to, and to reserve all rights of com]K>nsati, dated December 7th, 1S80, from Sir L, Sackville West to Mr. Bay- It states: ard. No. -). Sir L. S. Sackville West to Mr. Bayard. Washington, December 7, ISSti. (Received Dec<>mber S.) Sir: Referring to your note of the 12th inst (ultimo?) on the subject of the seizure of Hritish vessels in the Bering S«a. and pi-oniising to convey to me as soon as possible the facts as ascertained in the trial and the rulings of law as apiilied by the <'onrt, 1 have the honor to stjite that vessels are now. as usual, <'quipping in Mritish (Columbia for fishing in that S>'a. The Canadian (Jovernment, therefore, in the absence of information, are desirous of ascertaining whether such vessels fishing in the open sea and beyond the territorial waters of Alaska, would be exposed to seizure, and Her Ma jesty's (iovernment at the same time would Ix" glad if some assurance would be given that, pending the settlement of the «)ueslion. no such seizures «)f Mritish vessels will be made in |{ering Sea. I have etc. L S. SACKVILLE WEST. No. t! is the next one: No. 0. Sir L. S. Sackville West to Mr. Bayard. Washington, .laniiary !>. 1W7. (Received January 10.) •Sir: I have the honor to inform yon that I have received instructions from tlw KnrJ of Iddesleigli, Her Majesty's prin 58 lO 20 30 40 5" Oo cipal socrotary of state for foreign affairs, again to bring to your notice the grave representations made by Her Majesty's (lovernment respecting tlie seizuiv of tlie Itritisli vessels "C'arolena," ''Onward" and '"Tliornton" in Hering S«'a by the United States oniiser "Corwin," to whicli no reply lias as yet been received. On tlie 27th of September last I had the honor to address to yon a note, in whi(;h I stated that Her Majesty's Govern- ment requested to b«' furnished with any particulars which the I'^nited Stat<»s (lOvernment might possesft relative to this occurren«'e. On the 21 st of October last I had the honor to inform you that I was instructed by the Earl of Iddcslt-igh to i)rotest in the name of Her Majesty's (l«)vernment against such seiz- ures, and to reserve all rights as to comi)ensation. In a note dated the 12th of November last you were go(Ml enough to explain the delay which had occnirred in answer- ing these communications, and on the same day I ha<' 1 .e honor to communicate to you a dispatch from the Earl of Iddesleigh, a copy of whi« h, at your request, I placed in your hands. On the 7th ultimo I again had the honor to address you. stating that v(»ssels were equipjiing in I'.ritish Columbia for fishing in Bering Sea, and that the Canadian Government were desirous of ascertaining whether such vessels fishing in the open sea and beyond the territorial waters of Alaska would be exposed to seizure, and that Her Majesty's (lov- ernment would be glad if some assurance could be given that pending the settlement of the (|uestions no such seizures of Hritish vessels would be made in Hering Sea. The vessels in question were seized at a distance of more than «U) miles fnmi the nearest land at the time of their seizure. The master of the "Thornton" was sentenctnl to imprisonment for thirty days, and to pay a fine of f5(HI, and there is reason to believe that the masters of the "Onward" and "Carolena" have been sentenced to similar penalties. In support of this claim to j'lrisdiction over a stivtch of sea extending in its widest jmit scnne tillO or 7(10 miles from the mainland, advanced by the judge in his charge to the jury, the authorities are alleged to liave interf<>red with the peaceable and lawful occupation of Canadian citizens (m the high seas: to have subjected their projterly to forfeiture and to have visited upon their persons the indignity of impris(>n- ment. Such proce<'dings, therefore, if correctly reported, appear to have been in violation of the admitted jirinciples of international law. Und«'r (hese circumsfances Her Majesty's Government do not hesitate to express their concern at not having received any reply to their repwsentations, nor do they wish to c(m- ceal the grave nature which the case has thus assum(>d, and to which I am now instructed to call your immediate and most serious attention. It is unnecessary for me to allude further to the information with which Her .Majesty's Gov ernment have be^-n furnished resjMM'ting these seizures of Itritish vessels in the open seas, and which for some time past has been in the possession of the I'nited States Govi'rn- UM'nt, because Her Majesty's (Sovernment do not doubt that if, on inquiry, it should jirove to be correct, the Ciovernment of the Cnitt'd States ^ill, with their well known sense of justice, admit the illegality of the pi'oce<'dings r«'sorted to against th" Mritish vessels and the Itritish subjects above mentioncHl, and will cause reasonable reparati«m to be made f(tr the wnmgs to which they have been subjected and for the losses which they have sustained. In conclusion. I have the honor again to ref«M' to your note of the 12th of N(»veinber last, and to what you said verbally to me (m the same day, and to express tlie Iioim* that the cause of the delay com|)lain(Hl of in answering (he represent ill'. 59 lO 20 AO 50 60 &tions of Her Majewty'H Govprnnicnt on this gmvp and im- portiuit niatt«'r nia.v lu' HpwKlily removed. I have, etc., L. s. sa<;kvii.le west. Number 7 from Mr, avy 12, 1SS7: Ha.vard to Hii- L. S. West, dated Janu- No. i Mr. Havaid to L. S. Satkville West. i Department of State, Washinjjton, .Fanuarv 12, 18S7. Sir: Your note of tlu' fitli inst. was r<'ceive(l b.v me on the next (lay. and I rcfiret exceidinjily that, altliough my efforts have been (lillj^ently nuuU to procure from Alaska the authenticated copies of (lie judicial proceediufjis in the caw's of the ISritish vessels "Carolena," "Onward," and "Tliorn- tonse thereupon when the ojtport unity forded to me. You retpiire no a.ssurance that no av(»idance of our national oblifj;ations need V)e apjirehended. I have, etc. T. F. HA YARD. No. 8 is a short letter (nm Sir Sackville West to Mr. Bay- ard as follows: No. H. ' Sir L. S. Sackville West to Mr. Hnyard. , Mritish Lefjation, Washington. February 1, 1SS7. (Received February 2.) Sir: With reference to your n«»te of the 12th ultimo, I have the honor to inform you that under date of the 27th ultimo the Mar<|uis of Salisbury instructs me to inquire whether Ihe information and papers relative to the seizure of the the best evid<'nce will nmke diu' re- of dei'ision is af- intei ■^*... 60 nritish Bchoonprs "Carolona," '•Onwiird." and ''Tliornton" have reached the Ignited Htates (lovernment. I have, eft'., L. S. HAt^KVILLE WEST. This in answered February ,1rd by number 9, as follows: 10 20 30 40 50 60 No. 9. Mr. Bavard to Sir L. 8. SaokviUe W«'st. ■ ^.•h Department of State, WashinRtim, February ;{, 1H87. Sir: I beg to acknowledge your note of y«'sterday'« date, rweived to-day. Upon its receipt I made instant ap|)li(-ati(m «o my col- league, the Attorney-General, in n-lation to tlie record of the judicial proi-eedings in the cases of the three British veswls arrested in August last in Bering B«»ji for violation of the United States laws regulating the Alaskan seal fisheries. I am informed that the documents in question left Sitka on the 26th of January, and may be exjM'cted to arrive at Port Townsend, in Washingtcm Territory, about the 7tli in- stant, so that the papers, in the usual course of mail, should be received by me within a fortniglit. In this connection I take wcasion to inform you that, without conclusion at this time of any questiceived Fel»ruary ."».) Sir: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt lB in Bering Sea, orders have been issued, by the I'resident's direction, for the dis<'ontinuance of ail |)ending proceedings, the dis <'harge of the vessels referred t<». and the release of all \n'r sons under arrest in connection therewith. I have. etc.. L. S. SACKVILLE WEST. There was a dlstiiict statem<>nt on the one side and the receipt of it acknowledged by the other on the Ih-d of Feb- ruary, 1887, that these vessels had actimlly been released by the President's order and hereafter the correspondence w;'! show that that order for some ("xtraordinnry reason, althoi.gh transmitted to the projM'r official at Sifka. was treat«'d as a matter of fact as a piece of waste paper, and was not acted upon for months and months afterwards. This may b • come of material consideration in this case. esiK'cially ii'. re- 6i 10 20 30 40 60 mird to the f«nin in wliich my learned friend lias drawn the nnHwer to our claim. Tlie next one is number 11, dated April 4th, No. 11. I Sir L. S. Saekvilje West to Mr. Bayard. Washington, April 4, 18H7. (Heceived April 4.) Sir: In view of the approaching ttshing season in Bering Sea and tlie fitting out of vessels for tlshiug operations in those waters. Her Majesty's tJoverument have requt«8ted me to inciuire whether the owners of such vesm-Is may rely on being unmolested by the cruisers of the United States when not near land. Ilei- Majesty's (Jovernment also desires to know whether the documents referred to in your note of the 3rd of Febru- ary last connected with the seizure of certain British vessels beyond the three-mile limit and legal proceedings i-onnected therewith have been received. And I have the honor there- fore to ret|uest you to be good enough to enable me to reply t(> these in<)uiries on the part of Her Majesty's tiovernment with as little delay as pos^^ible. I have, etc., L. S. SACKVILLE WEST. No. 12 fr«mi Mr. Bayard to Sir L. S. West, dated April 12th. No. 12. Mr. Bayard to Sir L. S. Sacliville West. Department of State, Washington, April 12, 1887. Sir: 1 have the honor to acknowledge your note of the 4th instant relative to the tisheries in B<'ring Sea, and inquiring whether the documents referred to in my note of February 3, relating to the cases of seizure in those waters of vessels charged with violating the laws of the I'nited States regu- lating the killing of fur seals, had been received. The records of the judicial prm-eedings in the cases in the district coiir; in Alaska referred to, were only received at this department on Saturday last, and aiv now under exam- ination. Mr. Peters: — I wish in passing to have it noted as a fact worthy of some consideration and as h;iving some little weight in this matter, that although these docu- ments were asked for way back in the year 1886, they were not I'eceived at Washington until the 12th of April, 1887. I'robably there is scwne explanation given in the ofticial corresjiondence of the distance of the place and the trouble of getting at it. but it does ai>|K'ar to me that with a little more pushing those documents could have been obtained at a very much earlier date. Now, then, he goes on further. He says: The remoteness of the scene of the fur-seal fisheries and the special jM^culiarities of that industry have unavoidably delayed the Treasury officials in framing' appropriate regula- tions and issuing orders to i'nited States vess<'l8 to police the .Mi'skan. waters for the protection of the fur-seals from indiscriminate slaughter and consequent speedy extermina- tion. The laws <>f the I'nited States in this behalf are cohtaine^l injthe Hevis«'d Statutes relating to Alaska, in sections 1950- l!t71. and have been in force for upwards of seventeen years; and prior to the seizures of hist summer but a single infrac- tion is known to have occurred, and that was promptly pun- ished The question of instructions to Government vepsgls in re- ^% lO 20 .l*^ 40 60 62 );nrd to preventing the indiHcrimiuiite killing of fur-m'iilH ih now being conHidered, and I will infonn yon at the eai-lieHt da.v iHmsible what hsiH been decided, so that McitiKh and other vensels viHiting the waters in tiuestion ean govern themselves aieordiugly, I have, etc. T. F. UAYAKI). Then he gives sonn'thing about regulations with whieli we need not bt)tln'r here. For the sake of refereu'c I also reft r. pages 14, 15 and H>, to the various Htatul< s relating to seal lisheries in Alaska. I do not presume at all that it would be neeessary that they sluMild be printed in the record, but for the sake of reference lliey are there. SEC. 1!>54. The laws of the I'nited States relating to cus- toms, commerce and navigation, are extended to and over all the mainland, islands, and waters of the T«'rrit. one thousand eight hundred and si.xty seven, so far as the same uuiy be ap|ilicable thereto. SKC. I'.hw. The I'resident shall have the |»ower to ivstrict and regulate or to prohibit the importaticm and us«' of tire- arms. ammnniticMi aixl distilled spirits. inti» and within tlu> Territory of Alaska; the exj)ortation of the same from any other port or j»lace in the I'nited States, when destined to any port or place in that Territoiy, and all such arms, am- munition and distilled spirits, exported (»r attempted to l>e exportiMl from any port or place in the Initi-d States and destined for such Territory, in violation of any regulations that may be prescribed under this section, and all such arnis, ammunition and distilled spirits, landed or attempted to be landed or used at any port or jdace in the Territory, in vio- lation of such regulations shall be forfeited; and if the vahu> «»f the same exceeds four hundred dollars the vessel upon which the same. is found, or from which they have been land- ed, together with her tackle. a]>parel and furnitiire. and cargo, shall Im* forfeitiKl; and any |H'rson willfully violating such regulaticms shall be fined not nun-e than five hundrtn), dollars or imprisoned n<»t moi-e than six months. Itouds may be ivquired for a faithful ol)servance of such regulations fmm the masters or owners of any vessel depai-ting from any port in the I'nited States having on board firearms, airiinunition or distilled spirits, when such vessel is destined to any place in the Territory, or if not so destined, when there is reason- able ground of s\isi)icion that sunnnitted witliin the iiniits of the same, siiall be prosecuted in any district court of the I'nited Wtates in falifoniin or On-gon, or in the district courts of Washington; and the collector and deputy-c(>llectiM'H appointed for Alaska Territory, and any person authorized in writing by either of them, or by the Secretary of the Treasury, sliall have power to arri^st per- sons and seize vessels and merchandise liable to fines, penal- ties or forfeitures under this and the other laws extended over the Territory, and to keeji and deliv«>r the sjime !<► the marshal of some (me of such courts; and such courts shall have ori^'inal jurisdiction, and may take cofjnizauce of all cases arisiuff under this act and the several laws hereby ex- tended over this Territory, and shall proceed therein in the same manner and with the like etfect as if such cases had arisen within tlu' district or territory where the proceeding's are broujjht. SEC 1058. In all cases of Hne.penalty or forfeiture em- braced in the act approval the third March, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-st'ven, chapter thirteen, or men- tioned in any act in addition to or amendatory of such act, that luive occurred or may occur in the collection distric't of Alaska, the Secretary (►f the Treasury is authorized, if, in his opinion, the tine, penalty or forfeiture was incurred with- out willful negligence or intention of fraud, to ascertain the facts in such manner and under such regulations as he may deem proper without regard to the provisions of the act above referred to. and upon the facts so to be ascertained he nuty exercise all the power of remission conferred upon him by that act. as fully as he might have done had such facts been ascertained under and according to the provisions of that act. SEC. 105!). The islands of Saint Paul and Saint George, in Alaska, are declar«>d a special reservation for (Jovernment purjwses; and until otherwise provided by law it shall be unlawful for any person to land or remain on either of those islands, except by the authority of the Secretai-y of the Trea- sury; and any person found on either of those islands, con- trary to the provisions hereof, shall be summarilyremoved; and it shall be th«' duty of the Secretary of War to carry this section into effect. SEr. VMU). It sluill \h' unlawful to kill any fur seal upon the islands of Saint Paul and Saint (Jeorge, or in the waters adjacrent thereto, except during the months of June, July, September and October in each year; and it shall be unlaw- ful to kill such seals at any time by the use of fire-anns, or by other means tending to drive the seals away from those islands, but tlie natives of the islands shall have the privi- lege of killing such young seals as may be necessjiry for their own food and clothing during other mcmths. and also such old Iseals as may be re»|uircd f manufacture of boiits for their own use; and the killing in such cases shall be limited and controlled by such regula- tions as may be i)rescribed by the Secretary of' the Treasury. SE(l. liMil. It shall be unlawful to kill any female seal, or any seal less tlian one yeai- old. at any season of the year, except as above provided; and it shall also 1m' unlawfiil to kill any seal in the waters adjacent to the islands of Saint Paul and Saint George, or on the beaches, cliffs or rocks where they haul up from the sea to remain; and every person w'lo violates the provisions of this or the i»r»»ceding section shall be punish(Hi for each offense by a fine of not less than tw(t hundreorf;e is limited to twenty-five thousand i»er annum; biit the Secretary of the Treasury may limit the rijjht of killing;, if it becomes neces- sary for the j>reser\'ation of such seals, with such jtroptir- tionate reduction of tlie rents reserve punished as l»rovided in the precedinjj section. SEC. VMi'.i. When the It'ase heretofore made by the Secre- tary of the Treasury to "The Alaska Commercial Company" 4»f the rifflit to en^a^e in takin^r fur-seals on the islands of Saint Paul and Saint (it-or^fe. pursuant to the act of the first July, chapter one hundred and eighty-nine, or when any fu- ture similar lease expires, or is surrendered, forfeited or ter- minatease and secured by a deposit of United States bonds to that amount; and every such leaw shall be duly executed in duplicate, and shall not be transferable. SEC. 1!)«4. The Secretary of the Treasury shall take from the li'ssees of such islands in all cases a b(md, with securi- ties, III a sum not 1(>8S than five hundred thousand dollars, cont'itioned for the faithful observance of all the laws and requirements of Congress, and the regulations of the Secre- tary of the Treasury touching the taking of fur-seals and the disposing of the same, and for the payment of all taxes and dues accruing to the Cnited States connected therewith. 8E('. 11)0.5. No persons other than American citizens shall be permitted, by lease or otherwise, to ix-cupy the islands of Saint Paul and Saint (Jeorge, (►r either of them, for the pur- l)ose of taking the skins of fur-seals therefrom, nor shall any foreign vessels be engaged in taking such skins; and the Sec- retary of the Treasury shall vacate and declare any lease forfeited if the same be held or operated for the use, benefit «»r advantage, directly or indirectly, of any persons other than American citizens. SEC3. liMtfi. Every lease shall contain a covenant upon the jtart of the lessee that he will not keep, sell, furnish, give or disp(»se of any distilled spirits or spirituous li(]uors on either of those islands to any of the natives thereof, such person not being a physician and furnishing the same for use as medi- cine; and every revenue ofticer, officially acting as such on »'ither of the islands, shall seize and dt'stroy any distilled or spirituous liquors found there(»7. Every i>erson who kills any fur-seal »>n either of those islands, or in the watei-s adjacent thereto, without authority of the lessees thereof, and every person who molests, disturbs, or interferes with the lessees, or either of them, or their ag«'nt8 or employes, in the lawful pros<>cution of their business, under the provisions of this chapter, shall for each offense be punished as prescribed in ^'5 10 20 30 'lO 50 60 section HMil; nnd till vckscIh. ilit-ir la< klc iippiin-l. iip|iiii'.ti'- iiaiiics iiixl cai'no. wliosc n-cws ai'i' toiiiid fn^ap;f(l in aiiv violation of the piovisions of sections 11X1,") to I'MW. inclusive, shall lie foifeiled to the I'liited States. SK<,". litfis. If any peisoii of (ctnpany. nndei any lease ht ii'in authoii/.ed. kno\vin};ly kills, oi' peiinits to he killed, any nuinhei- of seals exceedinir the niiinher' foe each island in this clia]iter prescribed, such pei'snii or company shall in addition to tlie peinilties and forfeitures lu i-cin jirovided. forfeit the wlnde ninnher of the skins of seals kilh-d in that year. or. in <'ase the same lia\e heen disposed of, then such person or company shall forfeit the valin- of the same. SK<'. I'.M)!). In atldilion to the annual rental recinii-etl t<» lie reserved in every lease, as proVith d in si'cliou nineteen hun- dred and sixty-tliree. a revenue tax or duty of two . The Secretary oration on full and .satisfactory jiroof of the violation of any of the pro- visions of this chapter or the r('}i;n hit ions estaldished liy hini. SKC 1!)71. The lessees shall furnish to the several imiHters of vessels employed by them certitied copu's of the lease held liy them respectively, which shall be jiresenled to the (Joy. ( rnment revenue olhcer f74. The ajrenlshall receive th"' sum of ten dollars <'ach day. one assistant ayent the siun of ei<,dit dcdlars each day. and two assistant a;;enls the sum of six d;s in the I'nlted Stales dis trict court for the histrict of Alaska in the seveial cases of HIm'I aj,'ainst the scJiooiiers "Onward," "Caroh'na."' and "Thornton." tor killinjf fur-seals in Alaskan waters. A(cept. etc., T. F. liAVAlJI). I will come to Number \H, dated the 2!>tli of B«'ptember, West to Hayard: No. IS. Sir L. S. Suckville West to Mr. IJayard. Kritish Lepition. Washington. Septemlu'r 2!). 1SH7. ( Received Sejitember '2*X) Sir: I have the honor to inform yon that Her Majesty's (iovernment have been otlicially iufornied that the Itritish vessels, mentioned in ytnir note of the .'{rd of February last, have not been released, and that I am instructed to in(|nirt! the rt'ason for the delay in complyinf; witli the orders sent to this effect, as stated lit your above mentioned note. I have, etc., L. S. SACKVILLK WKST. The forefjoin^ referred to a statement made in a previous li'tt<'r that the vessels had been released on the Ihd of April, IMS", and heri' is a letter on the 2!lth of September from West to Itayard recalling; to his mind' the letter of February .'{rd and inforinin^; him of the fact that the vessels had not been releasej that tier Majesty's OovtMiiuicut had lu'in of- llcially infonufd that the Miitinh vcshcIs referred to in my note to you of the.trd of I'^eltruaiv last had not liei-n rehaMcd, and a.sldnj; the reason for the elay in i(ini|dyinj{ with the (Milers of the Kxeeutive in thai regard. I'lKin receiviuff your note I .it onee wrote to my colleague, the .Vttoiney IJeiieral, as the head of the Departinent of .lus- tiee. in order that I niii,'ht be eiialdtd lo reply salisfaetorily to your in(|uiry. I am still without answer from him, which, when rei-eived, shall lie promptly communicated to you. In the meantiiiie. in acknowled^'inn your note, I lake occa- sion to state my impressi(m that if the three vessels seized and ordered to be released have not been repossessed by their owners, it is not because of any hindrance on the part of any ollicial of this (iovernmeiit. or failure to obey the order for release, but probably because of the remoteness of the local- ity iSitka) where they were taken after arr.st foi- adjudica- tion, and the proceedinjis having been in rem, the owners have not seen jtroper to proceed to Alaska and repossess themselves of the properly in i|ii< >lion. Accept, sir, etc., T. V. UAVAHI). I call the att->iition of the Commissioners to II 's letter. A very short time afterwards .Mr. IJayard vei \ properly, havinj; found that his im|)ression on that niallir was en tirely wnuifr. had to admit and did admit that the delay was caused by an official of the I'nited States. Number 24 is the next one to which r will refer. It is from Mr. (iarland to Mr. Hayard. dated October 12th; Xo. 2t. Mv. Crarland to Mr. l?ayard. Department of .Instice, • \VashinKt(m, October 12, 1SS7. iHeceived October 1:5.) Sir: In reply to yonr letter of the Mid instant, inclosing copy of letter from lion. L. S. Sackville W<'st, with reference to the vessels "Carolena," "Onward," and "Thornton," yes- terday I received a letter from the marshal, Martcm Atkins, statiiifi in substance that my telefiram of the 2(;th of January had been thoufjlit to be not {lenuine, and had not been acted Hjton. To-day I sent him the following telejjram: "As the seal skins at San Frani-isco are perishable, have sale made. Thirty days' leave is {fiaiited for that i>urpose. Let the vessels "("arolena," "Onward," and "Thornttli of Januarv ultimo. • •I <......* (1.: :ii III ... . • . "I trust directed. this will be obeyed and the vessels released 'Voiirs. etc., ".V. II. (iAUL.V.M*, ".Vttoiney-Oeneral.' as "Wi II r.s lO 20 30 40 09 \ ■. 'I! It m'ciiiH nitli<-i Nti'jini;<' wIm'm the .NfiiiHlial ill Silkii liiol i'<- M-ivcd a Iflr^'rnin fioiii tlic Allotiicv Cmt'itil of IId' rnitnl StatcH onltM'iiii; Ihr ■•'Ii>)ini> nf iIh-hi- vcnni-Im as to tlic an- llu-iiticit.v of wliii'h !>•• hail hmiik- tliiuht. hi' iliil iiitl li-li-);iii|>li till' Attiii-iii-y (ifiii-ral ami aMk wIh'IIiit im' mil il wiin ^'i-imi iiif. liiMti'iitl .if iliiiii;; that hi> paiil im alli-iiliuii In il wlial i'Vfi', ami ilni-N mil, so far as ihi* riiri'rN|iiiiiili'iirf a|i|irarH, arkmiwlrilp' ill aiiv wav ilu- ii-ri'i|ii nf ihi- li-h-^nahi. m laki* iiM.v Mh'im whali'ViT in ii'piiil In I hi- ii'h'ani' nf I hi- M'smi-Ih, till' riiliHn|lli>llri- lii'ili.; thilt ihi-sr \'i'Sxi-In wrrr ilrlailiril fur Kiirh a li-n^lli nf linii' tlial IIt.v lu'raim- almnluli'lv nl mi iisi' wliati'V«'r ami tiiially wi-if ri'|iarlim-iit uf Stall-, Wiisliiiijiinii, Oitiibcr 1;{, 1SM7. Sir: ('nuiimiint!; iiiv ri-plv In vniir iinli- nf Ihi- liUlli ultimo. ini|iiiriiiK thi' n-asoii fnr tin- di-lav in rom|ii,vin}; willi Ilu* or- der iHHiii'd in •lamiary hiNt for llii' ii-lraMi- nf Itiiiisli m'ssi-Is wi'izi'd luHi vrar in Hi-rinj; Si-a. I lii-fj liavi' tn inform vnii tlial I hav«' IhiN da.v ri'Cfivi'il a rniiimiiiiiralion frnin in,\ rnlli>a^ui', till' .Vltorui'.v Oriii'i'al. informing iiii' that Imn ti'li'uram to llii' i'niti'd Stati'H niai-.shiil at Silka. of •laniiarv 2t; JaHl. nrdi-rinf; the ri'li'asii' of thi' Urilisli miioom-rs ••Oiiwan!,' •raroli'na," and "Thornton," owin;; tn snim- misrnnci'i'iinn ami mi»4taki' on till' part nf thi' nttirial In wlmm it Iuih Iii'I'ii ailili'i's»4i'il. had not bi't'n arli'd upon. A i'i'IU'WI'iI ordrr haw jroni" forward fnr tliiir irli-asi'. iih IniH lii'i'u distinrllv diri'itril last .laniiaiv. and wliich I had iiu rcaHDii tn dniilit had lii-i-n prnmpllv nlii'vi'd. In my nnti' to ynii nf tlu' lltli inslanl. I slatid it to hr my iin])re8Hion that no liiiKlrami' In Ihi-ir ri-piissi'ssinn liy tlii' owni'i'N of till' vi'ssi'ls namrd rxislrd. Tlii-s iinprrssinii it now ap]ii'arH wan not wi-ll foiimli'd; and as my ohji-rl is lo }.'lvi' yon till' fulli'st informaliiiii williin my powi-r in ri'lation to all transarlions toiirlu'd in our I'orri'spnndriiri-. I hasii-n to I'omniiiniiati' Ihi' lalrsi npoil madi- to mi' from tin- Di'part- nii'iit nf •liiHliri'. I taki' li'avi' alsn in i-.xpri'ss my rcj^rd tlial any niisronri'p- tion of thr inli'iitions and orders of the I'ri'sidi'iit should have di'layi'd tlii'ir |irnmpl I'xi'fiilion. I iiavi'. I'll'.. T. V. MAVAWU. Kavard In (iar- I will ri'fi'i- shortly to li'lti-r niimlM'r J7, land, as follows. No. L'7. Y iKxtract.) Di'partmi'iit of Stair. Washin;;tnn, (liloln'r l:'.. l.'^S". Sir: I lii'H to arkiiowli'dtji' your rnmmiiiiicalinn nf yi'sti-r- day's date. Iiy wliiili I am siirprisi'd to ji-arii nf the faiiiire of till' riiiti'd States marshal at Silka to nliey llie instruitinn of the rresideiit of .laniiary •_' Mr. Ha.vtinl. Drpai'tllll'llt of JUHMri', WiiMliiiijflini. (Iciolicr l.'i. IssT. (UiM'clvfd October 17.) Sir: -I liii\c ilic lioiior to snv. in reply to voiir letter of the l.'tdi iiiNtiilil. ill reiiilioii to tile reledse of the veHHclt* "riiro- leiiii." "Oiiwiinl," anil "Tlioiiitoii." Hint before your reiinewl IQ waN i'ei'ei\eil I hail ii|iealeil the iiiHt I'liclioiiK. by tele(;i'ii))li to the niai'Nhal for .\hiMl7. Mr. Hayard to Sir !,. S. Sackville West. (Note V(>rbale.l Deiiartment of State. Washiiif^ton, Ajiril :21, 1SI»S, Kesjiondin-,' to the note verbale of Sir Liimel West, dated tlie istli instant, it is sufrpsted on behalf of the I'nited States that, as the cases of seizure of Hriiish vessels in Hering Sea, therein referred to. are now in court iiendin}< an appeal from ^o a judicial decision, it is preferable to await the judgment of the aiii»ellale ciMirt in the premises. .Mr. I'elers: — Tlial is all (lie corresjiondeiici I jnopose to refer to as contained in this executive docnnient number lOt!. I also wish to refer to a letter contained in the case of (ireat Hritain; I am reading from the .\merican reprint. For the sake of convenience, I projiose all throii>{h to refer to the American re-iuint of these document.s. The letter I refer to is in \'ol. V.. ].a};e (!4. a letter from M. !>. Hall, Oo ''"'f<'ly put that in to shew that they themselves point out and l>i'iii<; elearly hef('i-e their own aiilliorities the (ireat dit'i nilty and trouble in ficttinp; to this jilaee where these vessels 10 were lyin;; — tlu- inaceessihilily of the place. That may he ma terial hereafter on the i|iiestioii of the dania};e to the ship. T lis was with reference to the "("aroleiia," the "Thoriitou" and the "Onward."' I wish now to brill}; before the ('omiiiissionerM and to after- wards put in evidence a nia]i which was put in in I Ik- Tnited States case, N'oliine ."!. .Map number .">. It is a map sliewin;; the position of scaliiij;' vessels seized or warned by the (Joverii merit of the I'liited States dnriiif; tlie seasons of ISSt!, 1SS7 and ISS!>, and on that map, will be found laid down the exact •position of the seizure of the "raroleiia." With your Hon- ours' permission I will shew you that (losition on the chart. (Chart shown ronimissionersi. I brin<; to your attention tli<' fart that this (hicumi'iit ]airpoits to have been |U'epared at the ollice of the I'liited States t'oast and oes she leave to-nij,'lit ? A.— Leaves to iiitlht. (J.__\Vlien will the iie.\t steamer have? A.— Fifteenth. (^.—Fifteenth of Kecemher? A. — This month. December. Q. — Do von carry on business at Encaliit? .\. — \<'s sir. Q.— What is voiir business there? A.— Keeji a store, trading; amours; the Tndiaiis. g.— Were von on board the "Onward" in the vear ISSfi? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.— In what capacitv? .\.— .\ mate and interpreter. i}. — "\'oii liJi.e been there for many years? A. — Thirty- five years. The Comniisioner on the i>art of Her >Fajesly :— Of what nationality is the witness? Mr. Peters: — lie is a (ieriiian. I think Ito witness! what nation do yon bi'lonj; to? A. — Austria. (i.— Yon were on board the "Onward" in ISSO as mate and interiireter? .\. — Yes sir. Q, — And you were on her when she was seized? A. — Yes ftir. Q,_I)o v,,u remember what time yon went into the IJelir- int; Sea iii that year? A. — Well, it was a lonff time a^-o. I have forgot. I :hink it was some time in July. .1 _ _- . . .. 1 1. •.,...A-> V \-..u 811 ive tor^tot. I :linik ir was some lime in .\\}\\. {}. — Do yon reiiieiiilier when you were seized? A. — Yes, r. Q.— What day were yo\i seized? A. — The second Anfiiist -moriiiiif; — si.\ o'cloi k. (i.— What crew had you on board? .\.— Indians, Q. — How many India'ns? A.— Si.xteen. v^.- Il<>\\ many white men? A. — Four. Q. — Was thai beside the cai>tain and you? A. — .MIo- nether. (}. — How many canoes did yoii carry? A. — Eifjlit. (i. —How man,, boats? A. — One. (.y — Was that a rcfinlar sealiii}; boat, or the ship's boat? .\. — No sii', liel iiijred to the schooner. Q. — What is called ilii' shiji's boat? .\. — Yes, sir, ship's boat. '1° Q.— Did any of the white men hunt? .\.— \o sir. Q.— .\ll till' liimtiiis; was d A,— I, 'I ^^ in JO 30 4fJ ^o 60 Q. — Were the boats iiit wlicii voii wen- ciiiif^lit? A. — Xo, sir; llicv wnc Mhoiird i.i. — And (lie ciiiMK < \.('i(.' iihoiii'd? A. — Vcs, sir. Q. — Was il a aooO si'aliiiid lliey ((line on hoai'd? A. — \o. '<'\v. i]. — Tlwy Iniiled yon? .\. — Yes. sir. ii. — .\n(l asked you wliai you was doiiit;' iliere? A. — Yes, sir. (.}. — XYliiil did Ike caiitain say? A. — lie says "Sealiiifi." lie says "lla\e yon v'l'l any s<'als on hoard''" lie says "X'es, sir." "How in.any?" '•I'oui- ImiHlrcd."' ■•Well." he says. "I seize you," and he lowei' a lioal and he come aboari'. ii. — What hajiiieiied Iheu? A. — Vu\ a line around, fastened lo the liow of llie schooner, ami come liai'k almijiside the "Corwin." ii. — So that if I un lersland you li^hl, he came alioai'd, fas- tened a low line (o liie how of the "Otnvari' " :'d then ]iut three men on hoard, and llu'\ started to low V.-'Told ns lo ito down helow . ii. — Who did he say to ^o down helow? .\. — The crew of the vessi'l. ii. — .MI the crew of liu' vessel? .\, — X'es. sir. ii. — Were yon included in llial? .\. — ^'es. siv. ii. — Mid he s|ieak lo Ihe cajilain also? A. — X'es. sir. ii. — Did yon !;-o helow? .\. — X'es. sir. ii. — Had they anollier \-essel in tow ai that lime? .\. — They had two. <2.— That is ihe "('arol-na"' and "TlKiriiion"? .\. — The •'("aroleiia" and the •• riiornlon." ii. — What hapjiened then? .\. — The\ look us lo Onnalas ka. ii. — How many men did yon say they piil on hoard your schooner? .\. — Three men. f( nr nwii at each lime. Q. — Yon wer:' ashoie once? .\ — I was ashore once. 0.- Dni'infr l!ial leu days? .\. — Yes. sir Q.- .\f(er you had been kepi there for ten days what haji Jieiierl? A. Well, one day l.ieuleiur.i come aioii^rsiile. and -Xo, -Y.'s, A.— lO 20 lio asked whiit jtrovisioii we iiiid (Hi hoiird, lie told iiic to take Konif lu'ovision and i)asH alxiai'd tlic sclutoiu'i- "San Dicf^o." Q. — That was an Amci'ii'aii scliomit'i-? A. — Yes, sir. (}. — Also scizid? A. — Slic was seized too. (-i- — Von was lo \»'n' ilie provision fi'oni yonr sliip and pnt it aboard tlie Hclioonei' "San l>ief;o?"' .\. — Yes, sir. id yon do tlia*? A — Yes sir. 11 — So that the whole of yon weic on the "San Diefco." ttliile men and ;;ll? A.— Three white men anvanV' .V.— Oh no oli no 50 W'vy hard. 30 40 (i.— .\nd when yon ^-ot lo Sitka, what did ihev d< yon . rack.s. Tliev lohl ns t( with asiiore ami to sleep in tlw bar Q.— What we'-e Ihc^e bar two davs and — Q. — Von were lak racks : A.— W e stayed there for to tlie barr; (i. — TIow nianv wcie laki'ii th first' A.— Y es, sir. .Ml the crew of 60 whites except two men. Q'— What became if ilw In. bans'' ,\,-_'piiev let tl (}. — Dow many men \m at i.i th.' I Om Q.— n> ov mam r.ionis < lid leni po. '■iira.ks'' .v.— Eight. voii liave 1.1 sleep in there? A. Q.— For the whole of yon? .\.— For ili.' wiaile of ns. Q.— What slec We slept (in the ||oo Q— Anylhlnn' lik-' a mall pinu: ac. -0111111. idaii. Ill h.i.l \.iii iher,.? .\. -X ress or lininnio.'k o, sir. (,*. — Did yon .- [ippiv y Q.-IIow did ihev Ici'd von (hen oiir own lilani A. liM'll Mill? .\. ery poor. ■^ffl '4 lO 20 40 ;o Oo Q. — How iniiiiv niciils did llicv ^'ivc vol day. A. — Two ('\cry *-l- — Where were v.tii fed? A. — In llie same room. Cl — So then, voii slept tmd ate in the same room, and von fixy von had oniv two meals a day? A. — Ves. sir. ii- — Von wouldn't do mneh sealing' on that would vou? A. —No. (i. — ilow louff did von stay there? A. — One month. ii. — Were all those men there one month? A. — Ves, sii'. (■i. — Were vou taken up before the Court? A. — Ves, sir. l$efoi'e I fjot into f;aol. ii. — Did thev have a trial over you? A. — Vet«, sir. Q. — And you wei'e sent to s;aol for a month? A. — Ves, sir. (). — And .von slaved that month in ;;aol? A. — ^'es, si-. (i. — When you mtt out of >,'aol what did you do? A. — I ((une tile next morning on hoard a sehooner for \'ictoria. (i.— So that so far as sou wei-e concerned vou were a<-tn ally ]»resent in tluise harracks for one month on two meals a day and ei}i;ht men in the same I'oom? A. — Ves, sir. Q. — The <"onnnissionei' on tlie part of Her Majesty: — How hn'fte was the room? .\. — Ten hv twelve, the room we slept in. Q. — Was it a hif^h room or a low? A. — I'retty hif;h. t^. — And that was the room you were confined in. eiy;ht of yon, foi' a month? A. — Ves, sir. Q. — Now, when vou were before the <'ourt, what did they call vou there? A. — ("all me robbers. Q.— Who called you n.bbers? A —The .ludfje. Q. — Who was tiie .lud}ie? A. — I forget his name, he is 3<^ dead now. Q. — The name he called yon liy was robbers? A. — Ves, sir. {}. — Did he call yon that more than once? \. — Two or three times. Robbiiip; seals from American waters. (.}. — That was the history of it so far as you were con- cerned? A. — Ves, si''. Q. — Vou were taken there, kepi in ,','aol a month, and then came down to N'ictori.i? A. — Ves. sir. (i.— Who paid yoni' expenses down? A. — Siune money come from \'icloria. ii. — Had you any money with you"' .\. — Ves, sii'. Q. — Yon had some money with yon? What became of your money? .\. — The linlians at Sitka. I fiave the money to my Indians to buy bread. (i. — And yoi! j;ave them >oui' moni'V? A — I throwed it down to them — part — thron};h the window. t^. — How much nioiwy did you (iive lo tlie Indians? A. — S(miethin that you were? A. — Yes. (i. — ^.Ml for a month'. .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — l>iil they .all have tlie siime treatment you did? .\.— All the same tn-atment. Q. — Mow much did yon par to };<'t from Siika? \. — f.*?.". ().— That is to the West Coast where yon lived? A.— No, -<-> t(» Victoria (}. — Von lived at X'ictoija then, did you? .\. — I live in \'ictoria and then I ro ri^iht to the West (^oasl. Q. — How much did it cos( to in't from \'ictoria to the West Coast'' A.— Well, about |7. The (Jimiinissioncr on the i)art of Her Majesty: — \\'hat does he mean by the West (Joast. Mr. I'ctcrs: — West coast of Vancouver, is it. A. — Euca- i'J bit — Harclav t^ound. Q. — Had you a family. Mr. Marketich? A. — Ve.s, .sir. Q.— When- did they live at that time? A.— No, I hadn't a family at that time. (-i. — (iot one since? .\. — (Jot one since. (.}. — Vou wan: the money all tlK- more now? A. — Yes, sir. il. — Could you (live iiic the niiinber of the men who were on board the "Carolena"? A. — No. sir; they had a while crew; 1 couldn'i tell ^ou. Crosse,\ainin;nion by Mr. l)ickinHon. i-i. — Mr. .Marketich, you are an .\ustrian? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have yoii become a citizen of (Jreat l?ritain or of the Cnited States? A.— (Jreat Britain. Ci. — When? A. — Oh, about six years a>;o. Q. — Since the seizure? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — And since your arrest and confinement in t?aol? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— You call the ;raol and the barran (ii'ates? m Q. — .\nd when yon .say yon were confined in traul, yon can you were coiittned in the jury room in Ihe court hou,se7 A.— They call it there ;» traol. Q— Were the dix>rs locked on ^ou' fimu'd ov<'r us. ia« 76 .Q. — Wci'c (ho tldors locked over vim? A.— ('i)\ilt into teil to stop him? A.— Uecause he didn't know exactly wliat he was doini;. Q._This is in the morninti? .\ — .\l)out six o'clock. Q. — Was this afler you ha■>) (i.— And were then any of the crew of the "^an nie{io witii you? .\.— Two. tj.— .Americans? A.— Two. (y_\Vho were they? A.— The captain ami tlie mate. Q|_Who was the captain? .\.— ('aj.tain Haynor. (j_l)i,l thi'V liave to sleep on the floor, too? A.— ^es, (j._ Weren't vou all )ieiniilted to brum you beddmii tiom ilie ship? .\.- AVe fiot no beddinjr. Q__Wei'en't you told to biiuK nil the beddinji you cliose. _\. Thev tohl us to brin^ blankets u]i. Q._Y(>u were permitted to briuf; thc.se up? .V.— Yes. Q._And the only reason you didn't briny; a matlre.«s was vmi couldn't pack it? .\.— Yes, sir. Q._You went to the ship and got what you wanted, did Y,„]7 .\. — Yes, sir; otir own clothes. Q _Xnw. witness, were vou confined in that place after ycmr trial for ihirty days?' A, -They kept us there in jail all the time one moulh. Q.— Didn't you fjo out after lifK'cn days? A.- No. sir. Q__I)i(l von i.r(.t enounh to eat? .\.— No. sir. Q.__What did they a'wr you? .\.— Sail salmon and veni 60 son. Q._I)i,l tliev make any dilTereiice tielween the Ileal iiient of vours.'If and (he prisoners of (he "San Uien'o"? Did th<-v treat you all alike? A.^-All alike. Q.— Your caiuain was liiptain Miinroe? .\.— ^es. sir. Q.__Who were you,' owners? A ^^<'ai>taiii Spiin^r. Q._Anvone elsi'? -V — T don't know. Q.-_|>irt you ever hear of Md.ean owning anylhiu).' in llie ship? A.--I know of hi# Iteing (he cai»tain of the -Favour ite." 40 ?o "^' lO lO 30 (J. — Vim (lidn t know vou had nuy other owuer tliau Siiriiifi'.' A. — I know (."aplaiu Sjiriiiy, Ihat is all 1 know of. (I. — l>i(l you employ Indians yourself, is that a part of your duly as nuiu-? A.— Xo, sir. (i.— Wiio (■ini)ioyfd the Indians? A.— The owner. (J.— Who paid ihem? Settled with them? A.— When 'iiey come lo \i(loria; jjot jiay wlien they come back. ().— Wlio lH)u;;lit the .suj)|>lies for your ship? A. — The owner. t^. — IMd you iiave anything to do with it? A. — No. sir. (I. — (►!• Willi Ihe hoard of the Indians? A. — No, sir. il. — Where was Captain Muni'o when the Indians came to you? .\. — .Miinio the captain of the vessel. (l — Wasn't lie arrested? A. — He Wi.s arrested. (I. — Was he ia the same jury room with you? A. — Yes, sir Q. — And tile Indians came to you for money to buy bread? A. — Yes, sir. t^. — l>id they ask the captain for any money to buy l>read? .\. — They asked Ihe cai)tain and he t;o1 no money. Q, — Now. wiliie,«s. iioii't you know that those Indians were jiaid by the Inited Slates Marshal— furnished with their meals — do you know anything,' about it yourself? A. — I 'es. sir. (-1. — And how many men were on the "San l>iefj;o" when you arrived thei'e? A. — I forj,'ol now; jrot while Cicw, white hunters. (i. — Did they ^ill remain on, loo? A. — All ^o into Sitka. Q. — Did you eouiit the number of men on her? A.— I lu; count them. (i. — IIow larije was the "San Dietro"? A. — I sui)pose about (i;est. Q. — Do yt»u know anythiu); about the size of vessels? A. — >Vell, I don't know .ibout size. (J. — Y'.' A. — Xo, sir. Q. — Wasn't the "Onwaid" furnished with a very i«oor class of supplies': the "Ouward. .\. — (iot any kind of preserves .ind bac(m on Q. — And you had nood suii(>lies on the 'Onward"? A. — (iood sup|)lies. (J. -As flood as any sailinf; vessel that was out? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did yo 1 ijet as fjood sujiplies in the ffMol you speak of as on the "Oiiwiiid"? A — \o, sir. (■l. — Did ('.-iptain K.'iynor remain Q. — And just ;is couifortiilile as you? (i.— Fed with the s.ime sort of food? Q. — Did yon lave any cook? A. — Some woman i-ooked for sir. -Yes, sir. Yes, sir. ill. (i.— Did they cook the "San Di tlie "Onward" supplies'; A.— X< sujiplies separate fropi Q. — (.'ooked file same sn]i)ilies and ate at the same tabh •Sau ''if i lO JO 30 40 ;o 6j 79 Vdii iiiciiii t(t It" uiulci stood that the '•Wmi lHt'{,'o" iiicii. Cap- lain Uayiior aii'l his nu-ii, lived on Ihf "Onward" MnpplieH alter llu'y were l»roay:ht ahoard? A. — Oh, 1 don't sa.v tliat. t^. — Vou slate .vou tooiv tile ••Onward" snpplies onto thi; "San Diefro"? A. — Yes, sir. iy — And .\oii niive us to understand that ;»oii were fed on llie "Onwaid's" supiilies on tiie "San Diep)"; lliat one cook coolied for vou all. and vou didn't know where I lie MUi»idu's (anie from that the ( 00k cooked'/ A. — Well, no sir. (.y — Were you out in ISS'j on the "(►nwaid" in Itehrinf,' Sea? .\.— No. sir. (). — .Now, will you please tell the ('id you catch any seals between KyiKjuot and IJehr- injj Sea? .\.— No, sir. Q. — You h;id Ix-en catching seals up to the time yon went into KviKiiiot? \. — Yes, sir. Q. — IJiit you ininiediatelv stopjied catchiiifr seals when yon stiirted for Heliriiijf Sea? .\. — S'es, sir. Q. — So tli.it the whole catch was taken in l!elirinj; Sea that was taken from you by tlii- ''('orwin"? A. — Y«>s, sir. Q. — So y(Hi didn't see u seal between Kynquot and IJehring Sea? .\. — We seen seals, but there was bad weather; c(nild not lower canoes. Q. — There wei-e seals there, so that you could have waited and 2nd of Au- gust? .\. — Yes. sir. Q.— TTow long do you fish in nelirimr Sea. ordinarilv? .\. — To the 2iid of .\ugnst, from the 12th of .hily to the' 2nd of Ani'iist. Q. — TTow long geii"rMlIy? .\. — About ten or twelve days. Q. — TTow long is tin- season for catching seal in T'erhiiig Se;i? A. — About a 'iiontli .'iiid a li.-ilf. Q.— What month? A,— Angust. 8o (i. — Y(iii ni'vi'i- lisli iiilii Sc|i|i'iiilM'f".' A. — No. Mir. bcciiiiHr I no l>c tlirrc. iy — l>(trH llic scii.-Kiii r'lui into Stpiciiilii'i'.' .\.--Tln' iiiid' tilt' of SfplCltlllf' lllf XfllMOll IlilN I'llll out. ti. — Till' wt'iilliff licfomt's liiid alxMit I lit- ls( tif Sfplcinlici', so tliiit von t'iinnot low<-r ItoiHs? A.— Sonii'liini's tlif niiiltlli' of St'|iti'nilH'i' Itihl wi'iiilii'i'. ii. — rsniill\ (lif ImI of Sci)l('inl)i'i' till' Wfiitlifi' lifiiniit'M hiitl. Just as it Wiis I't'twtcii Kyiii|iiol iiiiil n<'lii'iii^ St'ii, so liiiit voii faniioi lowfi' liiials? A. — \t's. sir, 'f ti- — And fvi'r,\ iini' >>f thosi- si-als m)|| swi-ar Wfi'c takfn in Hi'lirin<:: St-a? A. — ^'I'S. cvitv one ii. — All taUt'ii in Imw nian.v days? A. — Aliont l:.' days. (]. — Aitnal si-alinn I:.; days? .\. — ^■|•s. sir. - (i. — And yon liati no lioal outside of tin- canofs tliat wi-nt st'aliii;;, only tlif om- boat l)('lon in ont' ^^ i«l von stt" lli.'in i>ai(» lie say» on llic ''Onwnrd." (Uiri'HH taken nntil 2 ;:?<».) 2o 30 ■lO And at luilf-jtast two in the afti-rnoon thf ConiniiHBioncrs icHnnicd tlicir scats. Mr. Peters:— Vonr llononrH, in readinfi the coiTcsiiondcn assnVance ^iven in yonr note of the JSrd of Feb rnary la.st. Her Majesty's (iovernment had assnmed, that pending' the conclusion of discnssions between the two Hiw- ernments on }j;eneral ((nestions involved, no further seizures would be made by order of the I'nited States Government. I have, etc., L. S. SACKVH.LE WEST. 50 60 No. IG. Mr. Havard to Sir L. S. Sackville West. } Departmentof State, Washintfton, Anj^ust 1:5, lH.s7. Sir: I have the honor to acknowledj;e the receij)! of yonr note of the 11th instant, received yesterday afternoon, in- t'ormin}{ me of a lelejiraphic cominnnication fi'om the com- nninder in chief of Her .Majesty's naval forc( s in the I'acitic. dated at Victoria. Hritish Columbia. Anj^ust 7, reporting the seizure of three Hritish Columbia sealin}; schooners "in Be- I'Mifi Sea, a lon^ distance from Sitka," and that "several other vessels were in sif^ht beiii}^ towed in." The reference to my note to you of the ;{rd of February last, which yon make under the instruction of the Mai'qnis of Salisbury, has cansed me to examine tlie exjiresions con- tained therein, and I can discover no t;''"""'^ wliatevei- foi* the asstimption bv Her Majestv's (iovei'nme.it that it cmi- ^, .0 * ■^•VS^. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) /> .<^ ^ A ^ i< 1.0 I.I itt Hi U Mtob 140 IL25 Ml 1.4 I 1.6 ScMices Corporation 23 WKT MAIN STMIT WnSTn,N.Y. I4SM (71«) t73-4S03 WiiS "IT lO 20 30 Si taiiifd aHsui-JiiK'fN "lliiit |M-nilinc ilu- <- rcfcrri'd to in my noto of February :J. 1SH7. laid o(*iirr*'d during; the pn-vioUH Aufiuxl, and upon tli<' ItasiH of the information tli<>n olttaint-d I wrote you aH follows : "In this conntM-tion I take ocrasion to inform you that, without (-(uirlusion at this tiin<> of any i|ucstions wliit-h may b«' found to be involved in these cases of sei/ ire. orders have been issued by the I'residenl's direi-iion for the diseontinu- aine of all pending; proceedinjts, the diseluir^je of the vessels referre reason to anticipate any other seixiires. nothint; was said in relation to the possibility of such an occurrence, nor do I tliid in our correspondence on the subject any (;rounds for such an understanding as you inform me had been as- sumed lo exist by Iler Itritannic .Majesty's tiovernment. .\ sliiM't time since, when you called upon me and person- ally obtained copies of th<' reou'd of the juiiicial proceediiif;H in the thr«'e cases of sei/.ure in .\u^ust last in IteriiiK Sea, nothing; was said in relation to other cases. Whether the circumstances attendant upon the cases which yiMi now re- port to me are the same as those which induced the Rxecu- tive to direct tile ri-leases leferred to, remains hereafter to be ascertained, and tliis with as liitle delay as the circiim- stances wi|l permit. I liave, etc.. T F. lUVAKI). 40 50 60 No. 17. Maniiiis of Salisbury to Sir 1.. S. Sackville West. Foreign tlllice, September lt», \HH7. Sir: lly a dispatch of the .tilth October last iNo. :>I4| the late Karl of ldf iIh-h*- v«s«c1s jiimI of llicir imukU'Im iiiiil citwh. roard February, to wliicii I have referred above. Her .Majesty's tiovernmcni assiimi'd that, pending a conclusion of the discussion between the two < ioveriimeiits t! of the Itevised Statutes of the Inited Slates; and the I'liitid Stales \aval <" maniler .\bbey certainly aHlrmed that the vessids were seized within the waters of Alaska and the Territory of Alaska, but accordin>{ to his own evidence, they were seized 7.*), \\T>. and 7(t miles, respectively, south sunt li west of St. deorjre'H Island. It is not disputed, therefore, tluit the seizures in i|Uestiiin were elTecieo at a distance from land far in excess of the limit of maritime jurisdiction, which any mition can claim by international law. and it is hardly niHeMsarv to add that such limit cannot be enlai-;ed by any uiunicipal law. The claim thus set up ilppeais to be fonndid on lie excep- , ., ,^^fW- lO 20 30 40 tional I it If ^nitl to have Im-cii ((tiivcvfd to tin- I'liltt'd States Itv UuHHiii a I I lit- liinc of tlio icHMioi of the AlaHka Toriitui-.v. Tho picl) ■isi<'ii wliirli III*- KiisKJaii tiovt-iiiincut at ono time |Mit f«nw:iii' lo -MliisiM' jiii-iK runtrafv, it waM HtiviinoiiMlv r<-Nir«>ntly hIiow. ami tlit* AimT- iraii tiov»'iiiuM'nl can hardly ilaiai to liavo n-rfivc*! from UiisHiu ri^liiM wliiili tlicy dc>rlari*d to Im> iiiudmi88ihl«' wlien aHHcrtfd Ity the KiiNHiaii (lOvi'mMicnt. Nt»r docH it apptMir from tli<>t<-.\l of th<> treaty of IsCtT tliat HiiHHia eitlicr intend- ed or iMirporled to make any Hurli ^rant. for Ity Arlifle I of that inHtrument |{nsred, and no mentitm wan nmde of any exeliiHive ri>;ht over the waterH of Iteriu|j; Sea. Moreover, whatever ri);htH aH re);ardM their re8pe<-tive snb- jects and citi/.enH may be r4l StateH t'onnreHs in \H'2'2, which hIiow the view taken by the .\nierican tiovernment of thene pretenRionH. In is:!l the Kmperor of Hiissia had ixsued an edict etttab- liHliint; "rules for the liinitx of navigation and order of com- munication aloni; the coast of the F]ast«>rn Siberia, the north- weHtern toast of .\merica. and the Aleutian, Kurile. nud other islands." The first section of the said edict said: "The pursuit of commerce, whalintr. and tishin);, and of all other industry on all islands, ports and ^ulfs, includini; the whole of the northwest coast of .\merica, IteKianin^ front Ke riufT Straits to the Tilst decree of northern latitude; also from the .Meutian Islands to the eastern coast of Siberia, an well as alonj; the Kurile Islands from Iterint; Straits to the south Cape of tlie Island of I'rup, vi/,.. t(» the 4ritli dei;ree Tii) minutes of northern latitude, is exclusively {^ranted ti» UusHian sub- jects." .\nd section _ staled: "It is, theref(M"e, prohibited lo all foreign vessels, not appl.v, went on to say that it was exjM'cted, before any aet which should detine the boundary between the territories of the I'nited States and Russia, that the same would have ln-en arrangetl by treaty between the parlies, and that "to exclude the vessels of .\meiican cili/.ens from the shore be- yond the ordinary distance to which territorial jurisdiction extended has excited siill greater surprise;" and .Mr. .Vdams asked whether the Russian minisler was authoi-i/.eil to give explanations uf the "ground of right upon principles gener- % f 8s to 20 30 40 60 nlly rtM-ociiizfd by th*- Iiiwm aiwl iiHiip*** of natiniiH wliicli ran warrant tlif tiaitiiH an«l rcKiilntiouH." Tilt' HiiMNian iiiiniHt<*r in IiIh r<>ply. dalHl tlic L'Stli February, after cxplaiuini; liuw ItuHsia li;iHsion>( in Nortli AnH'rira, said- "I oiifiht, in tin* hiHf iilaiM'. to ri'ipicHt yan <'Xt«>n]y iiavipited these seas, the ri};lit to navi(;ate them bein^ a part of that indt-peiidence; and with repird to llie su};);eHtioii that 'the Wnssian (Sovern- nient mi);lit have jiisiitied the exercise of sovereijjnty over the I'aciti<- Ocean as a dose si a, 'becaiiHe it claims territory both on its American anil .\siatic slioreM.' it may sutTice to say that the distance from shore to shore on this sea. in latitude ni decrees north, is not less than 'Mi de^rei's of lonptiide, or 4.000 miles." Mr. .\danis concluded as follows: "The President is persuaded that the citizens of this I'nion will remain unmolested in the proseciitiou of tlth 5Iay. ISlT)). put an i-nd as regarded Krit ish subjects to the pretensiims of Russia to which I have referred, and which had been entirely repudiated liy Her Ma- jesty's (lovernnient in correspondenie with the Kiissian tiov- eminent in IH'JI and ISI'U. which for your more |iarticular in- formation I inclose herein. Her .Majesty's tiovernment fee| sure that, in view of t'- considenitions whi.h I have set forth in this dispatch, whi. .. you will communicate to Mr. Hayard, the (iovernment of the I'nited States will admit that the sei'ure and condemnation of these Mritish vi-nsels and the im)Misonnient of their inas- tors and crews were niit warranted by the circiimstnnoes. and that they will be ready to iifTord ri'Osonable compmsatinn to those who have RiifTered in conse<|uence. and issiii' imuiiKliate instructions to their naval officers which will prevent a re- curri'nce of these regrettable incidents. I am, etc.. : sAi.isnrnY. f " ' T"" sr, Mr. IVIcis:- I'lKlcr Hit- rule jutiviiiKl l>v lliis ('oiniii's«i (hat ln' did not linvt' tiir on};iiials of llifw dociimciitH. MtaliiiK vci-liali.v tiiat tlic.v were aiim-xtd to liic oriuiinil iv lord at Sitka md roiiid not lie productMl. H»', liowcv t '" fui-niHlu'd nic with a (op.v of tlic (vilitiratc of Hiitisli ii;^i8 tr.v, wliicli I now tcndt-r in i-vidi'ncc. Docnincnt fiit-d aH Kxhihit No. 1 for . Fih'd ns E.xliibit \o. L' ". M.. "('arohMia'" case. Cloaranct' of tlic "Caroh'iia," dated UHli of Ma.v. ISSti. alse found on ship. Filed as Kxhihit a H. 15.. "f'ai-olena" laso. Itill of healtii of tile slii]i "t'arideiia," dated !Mh of .Mav. I.ssti, also found on ship. Filed as Fxhihit No. 4 (5. 15.. "Carolena" case. Mr. Peters: — (<."ontiniiin^i I jrave iii.v learned fiicMid notice t«> produce and also a reipiest for leave to inspect, the on^iii al log of the "Carolena" which, as appears by the record a' ready ]irodiiced, was taken on board her. I have an answer from iny learned friend that he had not the log in his pos Ki'ssion and caiiiiot produce it. I may take that, I sii]ipose. as a statement of fact. 30 40 Mr. IHckinson: — Id lie sure. Mr. lV't»'rs: — 1 shall now proceed with the evidence in Claim No. 1, tic "rarolena" case. (>o CL.MM \0. 1— THK "(AUOLKNA." William Miinsie. of the city of N'ictoria, a witness produced on behalf of Her Majesty, being duly sworn, deposed as Tol lows: Fxamined by ..ir. I'efers. Q.— Mr. Miinsie. yon reside in Vittoria? A. — 1 do. il. — For how long have you been in business here? A. — I have been in \'ictoiia for IS vears. Q. — In what uar did you become owner of tli," sciiooiicr "Carcdena"? A.— About the year ISSfi. Q. — Did the scliooner "Carolena" lit out for a sealii.;: voy- age in ISSC? v.— She did. Q. — What jKin did slie sail from? A.— Victoria. Q. — And she was bound in wliat direction, was i( for ISelir ing Sea? A. — I do not remember how the clearam-i' read, but perhaps it was Nortli Pacilic Ocean and nehriiig Sea; 1 Avoiild not be jiosiiive; the clearance is there and speaks for itself. Q.— After the "Carolena" suited from \'ictoria on that voy- age, did you ever see her again? A - No. fl7 'Ciiro- 10 20 30 40 r^o (i.--Tliiit in tilt- liiHl yim saw of ht-r? A — Yt% llu- ItiHl 1 s!i\v of Iht. t^.— V(»ii Htiitfd tliiit yon iM'cniiM' owner of tin- '•('iirolcim" HoiiicwlHTt' iiboMi lH,s"i.' would you kiiMlly t<'ll iiic. did you huy hiT all at llif om- tinu-? A.— No, I did nol. t^.— Wlio was tlu- owMi'i- of Iht wln-n you rousnH'int'd to Imy Ih'I-"' a. — I iM-lii-ve Donald I'rquliart. Q.— Ill ISS">, 'lid you cnttT into nt'irotiationH for tliv pur- ilniHc of any part of tin- "CaroK'na"? A.— Y«'h, "JI Hhan-H. (2. — WiiH there any other iM-rmm who wan also huyint; an intereHl in that vessel? A. — Yes. Q.— What was his name? A.— Henry Matlhews«Mi. (i.— You we-.- to hay 21 shares, and Maathewson was to buy how many' A. — III' was to buy one third, whieh amount ed to Jl or 2'2 shares. I have forpotten whieli. ii. — And wha( was to Iteeome of the other onelliird? A. — ('a|)tain rnpdi.irt was retaininp it. ii. — The arranp'nieiil then was made that you three men were to berome the owners of the ship? A. — Yes. (i. — The original idea was tin t the three (»f you were t«i own tliat ship? A. — That was the oriuinal understanding. (^. — When you were buyin<; the one-third and Mattliewson another one-thi.d from Paptain rnpihart, was (here any valuatmn jnit on the vesm'l at that time? .\.— Yes, about (i.— She was then valu«d at fa.80(»? A.— About that, but will not bi' positive. )(r. niekinson:- 1 -Is that valuation in writing? Mr. IVters: — Tint valuation is not in writing, but 1 intend to exjiiain the whole transa<-*ion. IN'ters e<»ntinued: K.xamination liv Mr. A.— Y'es, nt r tho other one. Q. — Those were the notes you i'ttvv in jtart payment for your onethiid share? A — Yes Q. — In addition to that did you \m\ eash? A. — Yes. Q.— What amount of ciish?" A —Between ?(!()(» and *7<>(t. Q. — Did Mr. .Mattliewson make a similar arrannemen*- with regard to his on<>-tliii-d shan-? A. — I cannot siwi-k for Mattliewson. Q. — Now. I will take vou down to the exact transaction. Did you get a bill of sale at the time you bought the flrst ono- third of the vessel? A. — Yes. Q. — Is that the do< iiment which 1 now show you? .A. — That is the do.iiiuent. Q.— This is a bill of sale from Donald rrquhart to William Miinsie, dated the LMst of .la. .nary. ISS."), of 21 shares in the Hchoimer "t'arolena? A. — Yes. 8H lO ^o 30 40 60 (}. — I wIhIi In call vonr tittfiition, piirticiilarl.v. Mr. Muu- mI)', to tli«> |Nii't of tilth dociitiicnt tliiit riti.VH, "I, Doualii I'ltiii- hart, imiMt«>r inariiK'i-, < tt., in foiiHt«l<'ratioii of tlit* hiiiii of f(i(>7. miin>Ht, traiiHforH to William MiinHie, <>lr." — hihI liu-ii follows till' traiiMfcr of llii- Hliari'M. Ah a niattiT of fa«-t, it Ih Htati'd llii'ii' that flMI7 was Vw conHifffration for that traiiHfi'r. IMd that r<-|»n>fM>iit th«> wliolo amount a«-tnally |Mii«l? A. — No, it (lid not. 1 did not altacli an,\ imjiortanco tu the Hniutiut pliK'i'd in the bill of Hale tlit'ii. (j. — I want to ^^^'^ to tliiH |H>int : Are ,voii |M)Hitiv«> that in addition to that |(Mi7, which yon Ray yon |:ald i-iihIi, yon |Niid an additional amount on tliow notcH? A. — Ych. {}. — And that !|itH>7 diM'n not fully n'pri-m'nt what you paid for till' oni'-thirJ intci-st in the BchooniT "Carolina"? A. — Not at all. Q. — Vou havi- jjivi'a your i-xplanation that yon paid very litth' attention to the amount put in the bill of wile? A. — Vl'H. Q.— C'an you tell me who drew up that bill of sale? A. — I have for(t7. As a matter of fact, did you, oodid you not. pay more than 8(0G7 to Mr. Urqiihart for his one-third share? A. — I paid him 11,250. Q. — You swear tluU positively? A. — Positively. Q. — Did yon pay that in cash, or how? A.— I paid that In (ash at the tinu. Q. — ft apjtears that Mr. Matthewson also bought a one- tliird interest in this sIiId in January, as alreadv stated, is this the bill of sale for that transaction? A.— This is a bill of sale from Donald T^ninhart to ITenrv Matthewson of 22 shares in the 'Carolena," lated the 21st of January, IRSR. Rill of sale filed as Exhibit No. 7 n. R., "Carolena" case. Q.— This :ilso states that the consideration was 1007, but 89 .voii liav«> stiit<*il thflt yon aanif iat«'. (|. — You do not know what arran(fi>nicntH In- niad«' utt to tJK' artual 8«'ttl«>nH>nt? A. — I du not know; I liavi' forgot- ten. Q. — Tlic result of tlu>w two trnnmirtionH was that ,vou and Mr. MatthewHon iMH'ainc the ownern of that stiiooncr in F'cb- lo ruar.v. IKSri? A. -Yob. Q. — Later in tlie H.nne year, did you luive another trananr- tion with Mr. MatthewHoii? A. — .Miout June of the Haine year I lM)Uf;ht MatthewHon'H one-third inter<'Ht. U. — Will you tell we what Mr. MatthewHon wanted to do at that time, or where lie wanted to ro to? A. — If I renieni- h<*r, he wished to ko (<> the niinea, and no I l)ou){ht IiIh one- third Hhare in the ''('iirolena." Q. — Is this the hill of sale you got from him? A. — That is the hill of sale for '22 shares. 20 Q. — I iH'lieve the tiuiount stated in this hill of sale is the same as in the other*' A. — Yes. it is about the same; it is rm. (Kill of sale filed as Kxhibit No. H, 4i. n.. "Caridena" ens«>.) Q. — As a matter of fart, do«»s that state eorreetly the con- sideration paid by you to Matthewsim? A. — No.' Q. — Did you pay him more than that? A. — I paid him ft .(100. ,Q Q. — He was then gettint; out of the business and ko'hR ^ mining? A. — Yes. Q.— .\t the time you bought the seeond one-third from Mr. I'niuhart. in February. 1SH.'», did y«»u raise part of the money by mortKuge on the vessels? A.— I did. (i.— How mueh eash did you actually raise at that time? A.— I eann«»t be positive, but it was about fBtMl. (Ml. Q.— There seems to Im- the same amount stat«Hl in all the«4' documents. For some reason or another it was put in here 50 at ftifiT. but that was not the real transaction? A.— I think the amount was put in to cover interest. I would not be positivj'. but that is alutut tlie recollection I liave of it. (i.— Did you settle that moHRajje up in the followinR June? ••^•— ^^'"'1 ' h""Rht Matthewsim out in June I borrowed souM' more mom'y, cancelled that mortKaRe and Rave <.ne f«>r fl.tlOO. I borrowed that from .Mr. Htn-htel. Q.— Is that the second mortRaRe vou Rave to the same man? A.— That is the secimd nmrtgaRe. l»th of J line, IHH5, for f 1, 0(10. (Filed as Exhibit No. ». U. II. "Carolena" case.) th2Tl^OOo/*"\""' w"* ''"•' "^M *1"; •"*"/ "'•"•tgaRe settled by tins fl.OOO? A.— It was settled by the new mortgaRe. (i.— Did you pay the interest that was due on the first niortRage up to that time? A.-l presume so. doui7of'iT ^""" ""^' *'"*'* "**""* '•• ^^-No- I I'i've no OO lO 20 30 40 50 60 Q.--Aftcr till- Hi'i'Diiil iiniilpiKc wiih ((ivcii, «lii>ii |hi.v iil- li-rcHl on ll? A. — V»'H. Q.- Ilnvf .voii lu-n- iIk' nn'i|itN ftir ilic |iii,viii)-iil of ili»' In- t)>ri*Hi on I lie inoii):ati.'? A. — Vi-it. I |)'iitl the iuu-ivitl M<-iiii annu)ill,v at llic rate of on«> iht *-<>nl. |mt month, um hIiowm l>y Ihf nM'ciptH h«*ri>. H. — WaN that Uw »h\uiI ainonut ihat-K'Ml at that linii> on loanH of that ili Hrri|iiion? A.— Vim. that \\u» a fuii' rate of intriTHt in IhoHc 'H. if. — How tliti ,vou pa.v Ihf inlcri-Mt on that?. A. — Ah I hi*- Itv th<> nM-«-i|itH hci'f. thn-f an* ten for h\\ nioiiihM' intt-roKt anil one for four niontliH. ho that I would hav«> paitl the in tt-rcHt for tlvc .vcarH auti a lilt It- ovt-r. (i. — An* tlit'Hc the orit;iii)il r«'iti|»! 4? A. — I lliiuk then' ari> on*' or two that art- not ori}j;inal: I think tlH-rt- wt-rt- on*- *)r two. *tr |M-rhapH llir*'c. niiHJaid. and wlit'ii I wan Kath<-rin|{ n|i niv papfrH I ank*-*! Mr. It*>*'hlcl to kIvc nic a copv of th«' n> *-*>i)ltH. (}. — Ar*' y*iu pr*-pari'd to Bwt-ar poMitiv*'ly that ,vou actually- paid th*'ni? A. — I'oHitivfly. ii. — l»i*l y*ni finally pay th*- priniipal *»IT? A. — Yt-B. ij. — An*l that niortf^ay;*- was *liHiliarp'*l? I h*-*- IImm*' Ih a r*-);ular *liH Sih of No vt'UilM'r, 1S!M», -.nd Hij,'n*"d l»y .Mr. M«-ililfl? A.— Vi-h. that in *'«»rr<'ct iy — And that waH duly r*'*'*»rd('d? A. — Y*'«. (Th*' *'h'v* n r«'<'*'ipts aliov*' rcft-rr*'*! t*>, tiled t<»t,'t'tht'r an E.\ hiltit X*>. !», (S. 1». "farolena" niKf.) Q. — N*iw. y*>u hav*' j;ivi'n mh a Hlatt'nii-nt ai* to how y*)U bo- cam*' th*' own*'r of the "Caiolena?" A. — Yes. ii. — Yon hav*' Htatc*! that you jjave th<'»*' noten t*» Mr. I'r *|uhart and pai*i them. Am a matter *)f fatt. Ih Mr. I'niuliart •lead? A. — Y*'S. Q. — \Yliat was his onupation? A.— II*' was a mnBtor inarin*'r, and I Iteliev*- lu' acted aH ]iil*)t. Q. — \Yliere is Mr. Matthewson? .\. — I d<» not kn*>w. ii. — llav*' y*»ii th*' U-ast i*l*'a *»f whi're he is to !>*• found? A. — Not th*' r*'niot*'Ht id*'a; to th*' b*'st of my knowledge he is not in the country. Q. — >Yh*'n did he h-ave the country? A. — In the Hummer of 1885. (i. — And hav*' you 8*'en him sin*'*-? A. — I have not Hit-n liini since. (i. — Nor do yon know anylhint; ab*)ul liini? A. — No. (j. — In the y*'ar 18Sr> di*l you ^o int*> the s*'alin}; busineso in lt*'hrinK Wi-a? A.— No. ' {}. — F'or what purpos*' *lid you us*' the "rarolena" that y H*'nls fr*>m the Indians. li. — \Y*'r*' you *-at*hin}; seals that y*'ar *)n th*' coast? A. — I am n*»t positiv*' whether the ''('aroleiin" w*'nt *)iit that y«»ar from th*' sh*>re or not. I liav*> fort^ott*'n. (j. — lint til*' main ]iorti*in of your l)usin*'ss in 1885 was trading; witli th*' Indians ami buying; skins fr*im them? A. — Y*-s. I think the "('ar*il*'na" may have made on*' or two tri]is out. but it is so hint; api I cannot rem*'nib*'r. (j. — In th*' spring of 188r>. lH'f*)re you b*iu(;ht Matth*'ws*in'*i shar*'. was th*' "t'amh'na" on this Irailiiif; v*)ya}{*'? A. — Yes in th*' s|)rin}r. Sli*' lia*l ^on*' out and come Itack aKuin, and it was wlu'U she cam*' ba*'k that 1 made a trade with him f*>r his shar*'. h*' tlwn beinu an.\ious to ^o mining;. Q. — N*>w, fr*»m 188"), wh*'n you p;ot .Matthewson's share, up t*> 188ti. wIh'u th*' "Caroh'iia" was seized, was tlier*' any oth*'r p*'rs*>n who ha*] any interest in that vessel exct'pt your- self? A. — N*tii*' otiu'r than the mortnatjee. (2. — Y*Mi are p*)siliv*' about that? A. — l'*>»itive. 9t Q. -AikI IIi«< iiini'(Ka(t<-<' yi» \ii\\f H|i(>k<>ii nt wiim Mr. Ilrch- li-l. who ImkI lliitl DIM- IIioiiniiihI ilolliir iiiorl^'iip-'.' A. -Vi'm. < j. ' Whii'li iiKirl^ii^c uiii aflrrwiii'tlM |iiii wtnu- lo cvi-r. (^ - N't-itlii-i' ilin-rl nor iiiijln-cl? A. — Slu- waR almoliiti-ly niv own |iro|M-rl\. (^ — Voii oiillitlnl lliat vi-Hst-l In Ixsti. ami iht- IIi-hI i|IIi-h- lion I want to ank von Ih who titit-il h<-r mit for Nfalln^ In ISMti; dill von do it voniHi-lf? A.- V(-h. (j. — IHiJ voii at thai lino- kti-p a ri'unlar m-t of lumkK? A — I did not. l^. — hid voii kt'f|( anv liookn whati-vcr? A. — Xom- ♦^xi-i-pt a Hiiiivll inrinorandnin hook. 20 (^,_ .\h III the Hii|)|ili<>N th..! VOII jjol to piit in llic Hrliooiin- '•('ai-oh'iia." did von pay for thini in laHJi, or how? A.- .\h .1 riih- I paid in i-iinIi for i-vi-rythiii); jiixt at lli<- tiiiu-. or afirr till- v< HNi-l Mould h-iivi-. vissi-l? A.— Yi-s. it is for Hn- "Car- oli-na." ii- — Now look at voiK-licr niinilu-r 1', and ti-ll iib if that is an ori^iiial voiirln-r' IIS. that is an oii^jinal voii(-h<-r. Q.— What is it for? A.- It is an iti-in of ifLMMl for hauling' liinihi-r and piittiii}; sliitf on hoard tin- vi-ssi-l. r iinnilii-r :{ and stiit*- if that is an ori(;inal vomhi-r? A.— This is not an original voihIum-; it is a dn]dirati-. I saw in my little noti- 1 k that I had paid it to Win. 1". Saywaid for liimlx r on arcount of tin- si hooiir for tin- srhoom-r "Caioicna." Q. — If was paid by yi III. A.— Y Q.— An- yon pri-paii-d to say that yon paid that amount for Inmlu-r for tin- sihooin-r "fand d fo -Y.-s. I did -It WMS iisi'd for makin^r partitions in the hold. i-nlai-KinK the for jasth' for tin- im-n. making hunks for tin- Indians, and mak in^ salt Mas and ji'-ovision liins in tli*> vi-ssi-l. Q.— Ili-rcafti-r \oii havi- 1 stati-im-nt pnttinfj in tlio valac of yonr ship. Is that it»-m imlndi-d in tin- valni. of the vi'ssi'l as ilajini'd hv von? .\.— \i That is for thiiv's ni-icssarv for tin- vov sir. it is not. in<-liidi'd in the i-laini 1 iiiak • for the viil apt' and tin-y an- not in- of the vi-ssol. Q. — Now tlicsi- voiiilici-s whith wi- arc now puif pnttinu in ai-o for pnymi'iits madi- hy yoii. and aro in addition to tlii' valin- of the V(-s8»-l? A.— Yes. sir. they arc in addition to tht value «if the vessel. 0.— Look at voiiihcr niimher 4 and slate if thai is an original vomher? A.— Yes. this is an original vmieher. It 02 to 20 30 4< 50 60 it) II HMflpt fniiii K. (J Prior, diiti'tl Fibnnuv I'ltli, IMStl, niid iM for fl^.lU. H. — \\iiH thiit f«tr liurdwtirt' fur llu- \vh>»'\ "CuroWMiu'* .' A.— Vfu. h. k lit voiii-hi'r iiuiiilN'r !i and Htati* what it iH? A. — ThiH iH an oriKina! voiirhiT and iH for f:(.5<) for dra,vagf, for nirr.vinK HtutT on iMiiird tlii> "t'aroliMia." Q. — That waH paid h^' ;on? A. — Vi-h. (i. — lxNii< at vinirlit-r niinilM>r It, and ti*ll iih wliat it Ih? A. — Voui-li4*r niinilHM' <( in a i-cn-ipt from K. It. Marvin, Kbip <'liandli>r; it in an original \oiirlii-r and it in for tin* nuni of fS:t.07 and 9:<7.(ll, in all |ILMM)S, for niipplii'H for tlu' "Car- tdi-na." W-— K.v wliow ordi'i-H wi-ri- tlicHc tliinttH put on bonrd tlie Hhip. A. — Til** ('aptaiii I l)i>lii-vi- ord«>ri>d tlioHi*. ii.--AH a niatli-r of fart, did ,voii ,vourM'lf pay for tlioni? A. — Yi'H, Kir. I jHiid for tlii'iii |N-rMonall\. Q.— IW'fori' .vou paid for llii'in did .voii HatiHfv youraelf that tho.v wi'fi' on iMiiird ilio Hlii|i? A. — Yi>h, tlu> captain iiHually kiM'pH a litlli- rh«'(kboolv with ri'pard to tliow thin^H, hi' I'ithi'r i-nti-rn tlinn in IiIh rhi*rkbook. or niarkH thi' bill "O.K." Q. — K. n. Marvjp is doin>» buHini>HH hoiv now? A. — Yi'ti. Q. — And ho in obtainablo an a witnoHH? ,\. — Yi'h. Q. — Look at voiirhor niinibiti*r. Q. — And .vou paid that .vonrHolf for tbo vi'hhi'1 "t'aroli'na"? A. — Yi'H, I wo it horo Htati-d tliat tho iinnibor of the I'hroiio- mi'ti'r waH W»7. Q. — Look at voui'bor nuiiibor H and ntato what i( iH for? A. — It iH n Hmall bill anionntinK to fl.'jr) for a lantern ami wirkB for tho nhip "t'arolona." (J.— You paid that bill .vourwlf for tbi- Hhip? A.— Yob. Q. — In faot, all thoBo Miipplios won* for tlio nhip "Caro- lonn.". A. — Yc'H. Q. — Look at voiirhor nunilH>r and toll uh what it Ih? A. — It Ib a roooipt from John Uobortnon, MlaokHinith, for 154.00 for HupplioH for the sohoonor 'Carolena." Q. — Ib that an oriuinal voucht'r? A. — It in an original roi'oipt. Q. — Ib thorc nn.rthini; in that bill ini-ludod in your valuo of tho Hhip which you will horoaftor tllo in tho caso? A. — No, tlioBo aro nocossary oxponHos which wo aro obliKiMl to go throu);h yoar aftor your. Q. — And thov wow nil for thin vovapo of tho "Carolona"? A.— YoB. Q. — Look at vouchor numbor 10 and toll us what that is? A. — This Ib an original vouchor from Charios Pardoo for 14.40. paid for gun wadH for tho achoonor "Oarolona." Ci.— What iH tho dato of that? A.— May, 18SG. Q. — .\nd all thoBo vohcIioh aro for tho boginning of tho year of 1880? A.— Yob. Q. — TiOok at vouchor numbor It, and Htato what that Ih? A. — That Ib an amount of |i2.t..'tri for what appoars to havo boon Imught from tho pilot of tho Bchoonor "Mary Taylor." Q. — How do you know it waB bought, did you pay for it? A — Yob. I paid for it to Oaptain McAlliBtor. Q. — Who waB Captain Mc.\lliHt«»r? A. — IIo was one of tho ownors I boliovo of tho "Mary Taylor" at that timo. Q. — Did an ordor accompany that account for you to pay it? A. — Thoro was I boliovo an ordor accompanying it to pay tho amount. Q. — ThiB Ib BuppoBod to bo for somo things that woro aup- Itliod to tho "Parolona" from tho Bi'hoonor "Mary Taylor" and you got tho bill, and yo- paid it? A. — Yes. 91 10 iO 30 40 50 03 (i.— Ami iiM fur iiH .voii know, tin- iIiIiikh wiir »»ii tht- uliip? A.— V«'H. The ('oiiiiiiiHHioncr on tli«' part of tin- I'liHi'd WIhI«'m:— Mr. ri'tcrH. un* .VOII >{oiii;( Jo prove llirw tliintTH w«'r«' on board III*' Hhip iM'fitrc it iM i-oiitcHtcd on the otiit'r Mitlr? llf courso iiiaMtiM-H of vchhi-Ih iIo not alwa.VH liavc {NM-Honal kuowliMlKu i>f what iUH'H on lioanl tlu* vchmI. Mr. I'l'tfi-H:— i will go tliroiiKli tlioHc v by avoiding HUpiioitltionii until wi' liavf lit>ai'd from tlio otlit>r iiido. Mr. IN'tcrM: — \'«'rv well .voiir Ilunour. j iKxaniination hy Mr. IN'tfi-H lontlunfd.) i}. — Mr. Munxit', will yuii pltMiHc look at voufli«'r nunilH>r IL', and Hiatf what lliai voiiclicr iH? A. — That in uu original voucli«-r for tiic Huni of |:t4.<>4. paid tu l)i*an H. Hi>urH for ru- pairs to wiilH of IIk* hi lioout-r "('arolcna." y. — Vou paid (liat imxn'iil? A. — Yt'S. sir. (i.— l.«»ok at \ourlifr li i.iilMT V.i, and pk'use state what that iti? A. — That !■> a muui of flH.75 paid to John Weilor for riirniturt* for the Hiliooner "Caroleua"; it in an oi-igiuul voucher. Q. — Did you pa«- lat? A. — Yes. Thia apiM'urH (o Iw charired to Cariii' <>. .Munnie but there is an entry at the Hide "for Hclioouer '( aroh'na.' " y — A» a matter of fint. ilnse Koodn were for the Bchooner "t'anilena"? A. — Yi-.i. I might 8tate that in tliow days I was in the provision iMisiness and sometimes goods were char^'ed to Carue & .Miiusi< , witli which, as a firm, we hud nothing to do TheHe goods were chargeable to the schoon- er "Carolena," and were paid on that accotmt. I was in partnership witli Mr. ("arne at the time Q. — Please look at voucher nunib<>r 14 and state what It is? .\. — This is a receipt from Peter Mctjuade & Son, ship chnndiers. for #!M.()n. It is an oriirinal vds Hiip))lied to the "Carolena." 1 paid that mys«-lf. Q. — Look at voucher numlN'r lo and state what that vouch- er is? A.— This is a voii'-her for |171..*12, paid to VV. .1. JefT- MH* for goods HuppHed to the schooner "Carolena" as i»er bills rendered. It '.s an original voiich<>r, as I have stated, and the goods were for the "t'arolena." It is addn^ssed t«> 'f'arne & Munsie," lait is marked on account "for the schooner 'Carolena.' " Q. — Now with regard to that voucher I want to ask you, what is the stiili" charged in that voucher for? A. — It was for supplier in (lie shape of clothing that were put on board the "Carolena" lor the convenience of the men during the voyage. Q. — Is that what you call a "slop-chest"? A. — Yes, that is what the sailors call a '•slop-chest." Q. — That means that you have certain poods on board which are sold from time to time to the men? A. — Yes, when fitting our for sealing we always put a certain amount of goods on board for th" men, such as oilcloths, sou-west- ers. gun>-boots, overalls and things of that description. Q. — Is 'hat the usual custom? A. — Yes, the usual cus- tom. In fact, it is always done. Q. — And this biJI row before us was for stuff in th? sloft- chesf .\. — Yes, the bill was charged to Came & Munsie, and 11 note was added that it was for the schooner "Cnro- lenn" and the goods were put on the schooner. Q.— .\nd the bills were paid by you? A.— All those bills were paid by me. lO 20 .^^ 40 so 94 (2.— Look ill \oinli>'i- iiiiiiiI.it Iti iiiid sliitc what tliiit Miinliir JN lor? A. -This is a bill Iroiii CMi Iliiiji & Mm. foi- isliiir of llu- sain.' class; it aiiioiiiitH to f 1(1.2.') and was ])aid l.v inc. il—U dial an ori;>inal Itill? A.— Thai is not an oiiuinal liili (2.— Itiit von have an oiiy;iiial hill? A.— I had an oridnal liili hilt it was so hadiv linn up that I asked liini to make !: is in Inisiinss hcif todav and can hi- pro diict'd as a witness if luccssaiv? A. — Vcs. (i. — Look at voucher ninnhcr 17 and state what that is? A. — That is a hill from Tlioinas (loweii, iron fonnth'r, fin' $it.1tl for work done on tiie "<'ai-oleiia"; it is an orit;inal hill and I |iaid it. II. — Look at voucher imiiiher IS and state what it is? A. — It is a hill fi'oiii T. N. ilihheii A; roiiipanv for charts and sta- tionarv, etc., for the schooner "raroleiia"; it anioiints to f-d.^'t and was paid l>v inc. Q.— Is it an oriiiinal hil'' A. — It is not (he oi*i(>;inal. The ori<;inal hill ^01 inislnid with some others and I went after- wards and had a duplicate niade out. (I. — Are Hihheii & < "o. in hnsiiiess here today, and can tliey he ]ii'odiiced? A. — Yes. ti. — You paid liie nioiiev yourself? A.— I paid it m'si-lf. (j. — Look at Mi'.icher niimher 1!) and state what Ihal voucher is for? A. --That is a hill from Thomas Turtle, it is tor a chronometer hoiij;lit from the shij» "IlarvesI Home." and is valued it |l(i(). (2.— IMd yon pay thai? A.-- Yes. ii. — Was thai chronomter on hoard the ''raroleiia" wlien she sailed? .\ -It was on hoard her when she left Vic (oria. The niitnher of the chronometer was 8(17, as appears hy (lie hill, voucher iiiimher 10. Mr. I'eters: — I mijilit slate to the < 'oinmissioners that in mentioning this clironomeler I should like a note taken of the fact that in a cop,\ of the partial iiiveiitin-y of the ;;oods on hoard the "• "aroleiia" when she was seized, which copy was tfiven nie hy my learned friend Mr. IHckinsoii, ! lind on*? "chronometer niiniher S07.' This is therefore, the same chronometer as appears ini this hill. (K.xamination hy Mr. reters continued.) ti.— Look at voiicii'-r niimher I'd and state what it is? A. — This is a voucher for $-17.12 for fuel, wharfafje, etc., for the ship "Caroleiia"; it was jiaid hy myself (o Henry Xohle. (). — Look at voucher 21 and (ell us wlial (ha( is? .\.— Tt is an original hill jiaid (o Mr. (ieorp' Phillips for casiiii^rs and re|iairs (o stovi's etc., for (lii- ship "t'arolena," it amounts (o !$:t!).2.'i and was naid hv nie. rx3 • ■•■" .11m i- —This is a v her for #7..'">(t paid to Donald T'ripihart for surveying (he ship "Cai-olena." Q. — That was paid hy yon? A.— Yes. Q.— Look a( voucher 2:: and state what it is? A.— This is n voucher, a receipt from "Indian .limmy" for f2-\H tor l canoes, (i )iaddles and seal hiadders. Q.— These ymi honjilif for the sihooiier "rarolena"? A. Yes. Q.-Thal purports to he a receipt „ifr„ed hv "Indian Jiin- tny?" .\. — Yes. 95 A. •ICilfttT ill lilt' oiitflt; 10 20 30 40 50 63 i (^._\Vilii,.Ns«(l l),v wlidiii? A.— Wiliu'MW'il b.v ri<<' for four caniM's? Mr. Pctt-rs: — I nil! cxiilaiii that in a nionii-nt. Thoso ranocH art' fiill\ worth tlif iiiiioiint statt'tl tlitTf. I am not t|uiti' sure that wt- will he ahlf to nivi- fvith'iifr in any titlu'f t-asf as to tla-ir imrt'liasc. hut in this t-asf tlio t-tintics wt'i-i; bou;;lit out and out. iH.xainination hy Mr. ri-ti-rs contiiiuttl.) (i.— In issii you iiiatlc up your iniiitl to stud tht' "Car- olfiia" scaling*' If you \vci-<' lishin^ with whitt' iiit'n and tlii'ir htiats. htiw many iiifii docs it takt- tti t-at-li boat? A. — Tlirt'f. nanifly, a hunter, anti a ]iullt'r. ami a huat steerer. Q. — If ytiii tisli frtHii eaiioes, how many men tio ytiii have in eatli taiioe A. — We have two, a hunter ami a puller. Q. — Now then, ill Is^ti. ditl you lirst intend to take Indian hunters? A. — Yes, I tliil. (i. — I Mil ytiii semi your vessel down the eoast tt» gt^t In- dian hunters? A.— ^es. (/. — Were yon able to jret them? .\. — The Indians were a little limitl ahoiit -{oiii!^ seallii;: so far from lionie. Of eourse I was not dtiwn tliere. Imt I think the ia|itaiii told ine that they tirst a;;reetl tt> j;o. ami after i-oiisultatit>ii they tleeidetl nt>t to (It). Many of these thought it was too far friuii home ami they refiisetl to ^o. aiitl I had instriietetl the laptain before he left that if he could not secure IntliaiiH he shoultl buy 4 or .* ifttod canoes, ami shoultl tit the "4'art>lena'' out with wiiite hunters, putting two men in each cantH'. She was not one of tlie larfrest sealing vi-ssels aiitl her ac- comniotlatitiii was mil very •;o<>il. and so by putting; two men in a canoe insieat] of three in a boat it savetl the s[iace of 4 or o men ii. — You therefore hail a special reason for tryiiitr to fiet canoes? A. — Yes. Q. — You wantctl to < for the outfit. Q.— After >oii >rol canoes, did you lit them out with row- leiii .\. — After p'ttiiif; them I put steel ribs in tl locks ami row locks siill<-d to the white me ♦i. — State what are the lenjiths of these canoes, ami what size they are? .\.-They are from Jit to 'J:? feel in Itnuth and about four feet wide at the giinwak'. I do not remem- |W n-wyw^ 96 10 20 3« 40 50 (50 Ih'I' their diineiiHiiuiH «>xac-tlv. Tlwy are inatlc uiit «)f a lai'};<,' cedar lo){, and I put Hteel rittbiii^ in tlieiii h» aH t<> prevent tlieni from uplitting, and tlie.v were fasteuud through and through. y. — Are tljey eali-uiated to Hiaud a heavy ^ea? A. — Yes, the Indian eanoes are cal«'ulated to Htand <|uite a heavy 8ea, and tlu'y do so. Q. — And tiiey are rigg«'d with a inaBt and Hails? A. — Yes. They use «)arH in cliasiug a tniveller, namely, a seal that was wounded, Imt wlien fliey get up to a sleejjer they paddle quietly. Q. — Yon aetuallv paid ?50 each for these canoes. A. — Yes. Q. — And you could not get them for less? A. — No, I paid 150 last year for canoes. Q. — You do not thinli the price out rtf the way? A. — Not out of the way. y. — Tlie canoes y«)U bought last year are of the same di'- scription? A. — Yes; we can get canm>8 all the wav from f2() to $m. H- — IMease look at Voucher No. '2i and state what it is? A. — This is a voucher or receipt from William Turtle; it is for tanks. e(c. for the schooner 'Carolena." Q. — Is that an original bill? A. — Yes. Q. — It is not included in the value of the ship? A. — No. Q. — And you j)aid it yourself? A. — Yes. y. — IMease lr out to sea while the men weiv away from the vessel. Q. — Is voucher 30 an original document? A. — Yes. Q. — Have you a receipt from the captain for that? A. — Y«'s. Q. — What does it say? A. — It acknowledges the receipt of f.'iOO for incidental expenses and advances, etc., to men on the vovage, and is signed bv James Ogilvi*', the master. It is dated May 10. 18S0. Q. — Did vou 'j:iv<' Captain Ogilvie |500 in cash when he left Victoria? * A.— Yes. (J. — Did he take that money with him as far as you know? A. — Yes. so far as I know he t«M»k it. Q. — Is it usual to give a captain money in that way? A. — It is cust«miary always to sup))ly the captain with some mcmey when he leaves port, so that in the event of his run- ning out of provisions, or going in anywhere in distress, he may have tin* nion«>y that he reiiuires. Q. — And outside <»f all question of custom, you positively swear tliut you gave Captain f)gilvie that money? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you ever receive any of that money back? A. — Never. Mr. Dickinson: — Do yoti claim that the Cnlted States con- verted the f500 in casli to its own use? 20 97 Mr. INltrs:— I clitiin tliat llicii- im|ii<)pi'i' iii-lion in iisinj: (hat iil.'-*.. ■'■ 40 iK.xamlnalion by Mr. I'eters conlinued.) (i. — This is not the boat that was on her when you bought her? .\. — I think I bought that boat from Mr. TolVin, a boat builder, but I cannot remember now whether she was a seal- ing boat or not. (} — N'oucher niimb"i :U is a receii»t from Thomas Shot- and medicines for !f4.S(l. That was for Jiiid you puid it? .\. — Yes. numbi'r :?■_' is for for marine insurant e Did you actually pay that insura:ice? A. — I presume 1 did, bec:mse here' is the re- ci'il)t f(tO on hull of schooner, on a valuaticm of !*I.(MI(», and *l.(Ht(> on catch, jtolicy to be issued subject t(» the usual conditions. Mlall. jot a rel>ate or n(tt, and you were unable to asiertain? A. — Yes. The Coniniissloner on tin' part of the United States: — That eov«'red tlu' veNsel for a year? WitnesH.- — That cov.'red the veHsel for a year. I was un- der the ini|M-e8sion that I would pt-t the vessel bark, and af- ter she was insured I did not eare to eanc«'l the jiolity, and just liow lon^ that policy ran I am not positive, as I have forf;ott<'n. Mr. Hall, who is now here, has forgotten him- self, and the company is not in existence (Examination by Mr. Peters continued.) Q. — As you expect, d to pet tlie vessel back you did not cancel the policy? .\. — I did not cancel the policy at the lime, but how hnm I let the policy run I do not renu'niber. (J. — Y(»u stated thai at that time you did not keep any books? A. — I did not keep any. The Commissioner on tlie j»art of the T'nited States: — What would be a fair rate of ]u-eminm for a scaling voyage? Witness:— From ten to fifteen per cent. (i.— That is for the year? Witness: — Jus! for tlie tim«' it would b«' at a rate of front (en to lifti'en ]><'r cent , with a little added for tlu' unexpired term. .\t the present time they leave here in .laniiary. and they don't get home intil the latter i»art of October. We l»ay about nine months ]>reminm at ilie present time. (Kxamiuation by .Mr. I'eters continued.) iy — Look at voucher number ;{">, and state what that is? A. — This is an original voucher for ^12..">(l for potatoes i»ut on board the schooner "raroleiia." ii. — Look at voucher 'U! and state what is is? \. — This is a voiichei- for groceiies and ammunition, etc., it amounts to ¥-lss.:{7. Q.— Is that the original lull? A.— That is the original bill at the time It is from the firm of Carne & Munsie. i}. — The llrm of ("ariie & Munsie furnislie>| goods to the schooner "<'arolena" to that extent? .\. — Yes. goods to that value. (i. — .\nd these goods were all jiut on board h 1 .\. — ■ Yes, that bill is dated May IMth, ISSfi. That is included in that amount for ami'iunitiou. ('ommissioner on the part of the I'nited Slates: — How much does that leave you f(M- provisioning? A. — It would leave 42t> odd d(dlars. ^Q I Examination l>y Mr. I'eters continued.) Q. — There ai" several other bills for provisions that went 30 40 50 on board the Parolena that v<'ar? .\.— Y The t'omiiiisHioner on tie part of the Tnited States:— For what time was the "t'aiolena" provisi(uied when she left here? Witn. Wi vessels tlM'ii as were not as experienced ill provisioning *e are now, and we ciilciil.itcd that it woi'ld 99 20 1m- for tlu' NCiiN»>ii, iilthii'iK'li tlif taittaih wtiH pntvidctl with HiiiiK- iiioiM'V, s.!)(» from Ar lloon for vegetables, is that an original receipt? A. — Yes. (i.— A'ouchtir n is a ri-ceipt foi- |i77.U> from Robert Ward & Co.. for powder, is that a correct bill? A.— That is the original bill. (}.— How nnuli powder will that include? A. — 123 I>ounds. (I. — Was that all (he powder that was on board the "Car- olena" then? A.— I will not be positive as to that, there mav have been more, b'lt 1 cannot say positively. t^. — What ()u:inlity of i»owder is generally taken on a voy- age of this kind"' .\. -At the present time we take about V2 t went -live jtoiind kegs, or .'{(Ml pounds. iy — Mow much jiowdei use«l you to take in ISSfi? A. — I do not remember now, but I iuuigine I considered what I liought was enough, although t la-re i>robably may have b(-(-n smiie on board. Q. — Voucher 42 is a reci-ipt for ;fl4.r»0 for caitridges, (-tc.. friuu (Jutman & Frank. What kind of cartridges did you use? A. — We used brass shells for ten w twt ive bore guns; tlu-y w«-re l)r(-ech loading guns and s(((( cartriaid. t^. — N'oucher 4:5 is fr vessel. We w is a receipt fnuu I»rake & .lackson for fTl.lO for h^Rul (-xpenses. Did you actually pay that sum in connection with the schooner "Candena" for IcRal ex- penses? A. — Yes; that was for the i>reparation of the claims oriRinally. The tirst bill was rendered on the .'jth of Sep- temb<'r. is8.**. Q.— And the bill is for dilTerent IcRal expenses incurr«'d in rcRurd to this matter, and the items speak for themselves? A.— Yes. The t'onnnissioner on the part of tiu' I'nitcd States: — That is in the Hritish case, is it? Mr. Peters:— I believe so. but I do not know that the items are actually statet». Ves. That was :i barRain made with you years aRo? A.- ii. — .\nd before you had any idea that there w(»ili<»ii'.' A. — YcN. Ill (liiH bill 1 liavo nivHi'lf iltMliK'icil til** yn.lo uf iM-iikf & JiK-kHdii'M bill, wbieb I iiiid lo iMiy. Al til'' HiiiiK' tiiiK", l<» k<'<'it liic t'XiKMiHCH witb- ill tin- cliiiiii« I 'Icdiiit'-d iJH' |71.U». t^.— Y»»ii iij,'n'((l? A. — V«'S. (|.— Vou iiiiid iIk' -^Tl iiiid you iiIho ]taid Mr. n<'ly«'a soiiit- liiiiif? on iucount of tlii' bill? A. — Yi-s. (i.— And then- is a ivgiilar iigrci'int'Ut (hut Mr. Ut'lycu i-lioiild t;<'< #"o<>' A — Vi'S. (2._ Voucher !7 is a bill for fV»(» from Willougbby t'birk for b'gal <'X|M'iist'.-< \.— That wuH incurred in Kitka, AbiH ka. and 1 actually iiaid il. and tliiM iu the original receipt. Mr. ("lark defended 'he case at Sitka. (i.— That wa.-t for ihe whole bgal work at Kitka? A.— Yes. for (he whole legal work on the part of the "Carolena" al Sitka. A.— 1 be 20 licv,. it was the inaHti'r of (he "("aroleiia." or at leuHt so the l^.— NVho waH i( eiii])loyed Mr. Clark a( Si(ka mate informed me on his return. lie said (ha( Mr. Clark ottered his serviies, .Old (hat be would see the case (hrongli Ihe Supri-me Court of (he rni(ed S(ates for |u(y(( ii. — NVeie you drawn upon a draft on me for f.'iiHl. for tills amount? A.— He made (i.— Who was the draft sigm •d bv? .\.— It was signed by ihe m ster, I believe, before he died. Q. — Did you honor that draft -I did not. -Yes. (2._|Md vou iilterwiirds have to pay the draft? ii—l beiieve some skins belonging to you got into Ameri- can territory -Yes. ti And did Mr. Clark seize them on account of the bill^ A.— Yes. tj.— And what did you give him for i(? A.— Tie seized 1(1(1 skins, and I was forced to give him .".(» skins to settle (he bill; (he skins were wor(h (o me »".•(». as it afterwards tran- spired according (o (he sale. Q._So (ha( i'is(ead of paying #.">00 you actualy paid fiiXI lor Mr. Clark's bill? A.— Yei Q._\Vlia( y. tliaC .\.— In 1S!»2. I (liiiiU; it was (he year of (hi- siiziii" of (he ••Coiiuidaiu" and (he skins were on board lior. Q. — There is iiere a bill, voucher number 4.**. from J. 1>. \Yarren f(U- ll.u'. Tell us aboiK this? A.— Captain \Yar- reii was a gentleman who was appointed by us to go to Otta- wa to rearrange (he claims in coiiformi(y widi the wishes of the (loverniiient ; he was a gentleman who liad a good deal of e.\perieiuc in sealing. (i. — lie went there at the request of all jiarties? A. — Y 's. (i.— This receipt reads rebruary 2:!. ISMS, "deceived ^in:.' in full for services and exjteiises a( lending to claim of (In schooner "Caroleiia" a( Ottawa. Signed. .1. T>. >VarieT; " Q. — Was (he total ex[)ense iliviresiiine so, that was my projiortion for tli<- schooner "Caroleiia," ami I paid it. Q. — In voucher 4i( ,\oii make a claim of $'2!H\ for personal services. Please ("xplaiii that. .\re you pre]iared .0 give to this Tribunal any detailed items of your own jtersonal trouble and expenses? .\. — \o, 1 am not. Q. — .\s a matter <»f fact at the (iiiie of the seizure, and for some time aftei-wards. were you put to a great deal of per- sonal (rouble and expense in connection with it? .\.— S'es. 1 spent a great deal of time in connecdon wi(b it. Q. — You do not pis'teml (o give (he i(ems? .\. — No. I do not, I paid nionev out that I ke]i( no account of in gathering information and I lost a great deal of time for a!' of whioli I charged iJS.V). !|', 1 1 fm'w 102 in 20 n 60 l^.— I»(i von Ihiiik llio iliiiryt- is l«o iniuli? A.— I «lo iiol think HO. (^._.\„w, \vf will III! (' voiulii'i- :V.', wiiicti iiinoiiiiU »o ipTl.Tl'. iiiKl wliicli is for IraiiHiioii iiiid lioiinl of new, to tlu' i'tuitiv t/oiiHt Stciimship Coiniinii^'. Will .v»mi «'.\i»laiii tlial? A.— II ii|»|M-)irH that at llu' tiiiH" the wizinc wan iiiadt' tin- sailoiH wfi-f |iiit on )ioar«l the HlfanitT iinr items are included in that amount. U. — As a mater of fact, is that the fair value for that ship as she was? A. — Wt'll, I would not like to swear jtositively. I paid at the rat*- of #:{,S(»(I for her, but there are jtrobably 30 others who are better able to tell the real valiu' of the ves- sel than I am. (2. — In yotir own opinion is it a fair value for the ship? A — I consider it fair. (i. — After yon bou(»minion (iovernment chartered her In ]S'^r> for l>r. i>awsawMon suggested that if the government intended to do any extensive saiveying he would lik«' io buy such a vesse't. Thiit was all there was to it. (J. — Was the "Carulena" in good condition then? A. — Yes Q. — When sh" left in ISSti, was she in good condition? A. — First-<'lass, and in g»»od ord«'r. ii. — Was she repaired often? .\. — Just the usual repair.-* 5" we have to make each year. Itefore 1 bought hor in 1SS4, I believ<'. she Iijid a thorough overhauling. I understood there was ii great deal of new woi-k done on her tl leii. New Hl>ars, new rigging and new sails, but I gather frmn the sur- veyor's report : — Q.— What was the "Carcdena" built of? A.— Native pine, Oregon pine. Q. — Is that considered to tie a good mnlerial? A. — It is. {}. — Were her sails new or old? A — I see by the survey- or's re]iort that she had new sails. I do not know whelTier they were all new or not but I gathered that from the sur- veyor's report of 1SS4 or ISS'). ii. — The "Carolena" was in good order in ISSfi, and you consider |4.(MK» not an unfair value? A. — It is not unfair. Q.— In ISSfi was there a demand for vessels of her descrij) tion to engage in the sealing business? A. — Yes. Q. — Was sealinj: on the increase then? A. — It was just be^rinning to increase. Q. — You had nolhing to do with sealing in Tlehring se.i before that yejir? A -Not in Itehring sea, but I had on tin; I03 10 20 30 40 lO 60 roiist oiu' vcjir. Tin-it- had Im«-ii a few vchchIh \ntiu\i io !»<'liriM>,' H«'"a, l»u( fioiii ISSl' or iSM.l Jln-y lit-uaii lo pt llii-n- iiion- iiiul iiioi-i- until I.SHli. il — Ilail von lM'«-n looking; out for a mliooni-r for iiiiv Uiiu* licfon- yon boujflil lliin inn-? A.— Yt-tt. I lliluk my lirnt w-alinn v«-n(nr»' waH in aliont 1SH2 or 1SH.'{. wlii-n I rharli-n-d a vi'MHcl. lint iIh "rarolrna" wan tin- HrHt vchhcI artnally liunglit — Q.— Had yon iK-t-n looking fm- one for any linn- bt-forc yon IioiikIi) lilt' "raroh-na"? A.— YtM. and tin- 'Tarolt-na" waw lilt' Hrnl vi'sst'l I was aldf tti Itny. Caplain Spring bttn>jlil II Mlatk Mianitnid." wliitli I hatl tlnirlfrt'tl in 1SS2 t>r lss:t. (i.— Now. as a nniltt-r t»f fai-t, wt-rt' yt)u desirtniM tif st-llinn lliis stliotiiu'r. tlif "Carolt-na?" A.— Nti, I was mtt. I btin{;lit lilt- "I'alliHndt-r" in addititm to Iht' "(.'arolt-na." Tin- rtiniinissitnit-r tin tht- part t>f tlu- Tnitt-d Htatt-s:— Mr. rt'tt-rs. is that t-viilt-ntf aoum lo ht-lp ns in this last'. or arc yon p'ltinf; it in ftir anollii-r case? Mr. I't'tt-rs: — Winn wt- t-tant- to p-t at Iht- valnt- t)f tht>8»' ships, it is ainitist nt>tt-ssary that wt- shonid Ititik at the va!at> of Httnii' otlit-r ships lit-sidt-s tht- ont* wt- art- tlt-alin); with. ()ni> nniy say that lh(> "I'artdt-na" is wtnth |14.IMI(> and anotht-r |M-i'haps |i;{.lltK». and wf tan ]ifrhaps ni-t at her t-.vatt valni and st-t> whii'li tif tht-ni is tt-llinj; tht- truth. Tht- Ctanniissittnt-r ini tht- part tif tin- T'nitt-d Statf-s:— If yon art' jitiin;; tt» shtiw tht- salts of tithi-r vt-sst-ls. yon tinnht ti» provt' their tt>ndilit;n, tonnajit-, t-tc. Mr. IV'tt-rs: — I am prt-part-tl to do so. Tht' Ctminiissitnit-r tin tht- part of tht- United States: — Do yon think we shonid be helped liy that? Mr. I'eters: — If yon Itiok at the ease made tin both sides in this jiartitiilar nnitler ytin will see there is a ^reat divern- enee tif opinion as tti what these sealing vessels are wtirlh. We wish to refer ntit only tti the attual sehoonera in dispute here, but also lo stinie stlmoners whit-h are not in dispute — btiih Ameritau sthooners and English sthtioners — to see what they are wtirth. The (Vimmissioner on the jiart of the United States: — 1 have hatl a jjt tid deal of e.xperience in that tlireetitin, and I never found any advantage to ttime tif it, exeept tif the mtist general cliaratter Mr. I'tters: — My expt-rienee of getting evidence here is that unless yon sift evitlento of ;i general tharat-ter very cart;- fully it is of vt-ry little value. One man says a sihodner is wtirth Sir.n a ttm and another says it is worlh ^125, and when yt)u etmie to ask htiw they make nji that ealenlatitin you will "find they are all ditTerent. Tht- Conunissitiner on the jiart of tht- I'nited States: — What do ytiu pitiiiose now? Mr. I'ett-rs: — I proiit»se to show that there are ten or fifteen vessels, and that those vesst-ls actually tost so much to build. I prtiptise to show that by the very best evident-e. The Conimissitiner on the part tif the United States: — I do iKit know how such evidence wtiuld affect Judge King, but I do not think it would affect my mind in the slightest The actual sales of similar v«-ssels about this tnne would give some stirt of a clue. Mr. Peters: — I am going to prove the actual ssiles and the actual cost of some vessels. I do ntit st-e that I can give any better evitlence than that. ' 'i^ <»w^ II i ^ \ 'i lO ?.o 30 40 50 60 IP4 Tilt' ('oiiiintHKiiiiwi- on tin- purl nf llii- i'nilnl Suiffn:— It In vcrv ilittlciiK lo iiiiikr iiii.v ioo Rhniihl not ;;<'t the lit'iii'lit of it. Mow laii I show lN>tt4>r thr viiliio than li.v |!ivinf; I'vidi inc as to what vonni'In wiTc Holil for at that tinu'? Tin- Commissiorn'r on tln' jiart of thi' Tnitc*! Ktad's — I mi'i-i'ly MiiKjri'stt'd this willi a vii'w of saviiin time. .Mr. I'l'ti'is: — I ilo not think llicif will hi' an.v very li'iifjlhy I'viili'iii-c upon this point. Voiiihi'is No. 1 to No. .'id liii'd as K.xhiliil ID tilt.. "Car oli'iia" I'aHc. (K.xamiiiation liy Mi. I'l'li-rs ('onliniii'd.) H. — At that tinii' you say that Rralinn vi'SSfls wiTf in il<' ma ml? A. — Yi-s. (2. — And villi will' not anxious to si'll llu' "('arolcna"? A —No. Q. — I was ^oiiifj; on lo ask you whi'llior you had lioii^hl any otlii-r vi'ssi-ls liisidi's the "Caroli'iia" and you said you had lioii^rht the "I'ath.indi r' ?.\. Vi's, in tlic aulunin of IS.s.'i, I lioii^ht lii'r at Halifax. i^. — Do you ii'iiu'iiilicr thi' lonnapr of tlio '•I'alhtimh'r'".' A. — (!(i tons ri'trisiry. ii. — You ail" spi'akiii};. I iindi'istand, of rc^iistcri'd ton najjc? A. — Always of r»'«risti'r('d lonnajrc. Q. — Tell nil' in round fi;;iir»'s what liic ••Pathtlndi'r'" rosi yon whon you landed her in Virtoria? A. — That is a littlo ditliriilt to tril, lii-faiisi' tliiri' is llic wi'ar and ti-ar coiiiiiij; around lii'ri', which is hard to arrivi* at. >. — What did voii pav for hci' in Halifax? A. — She cost Q nil' almiit !ii4.rillf) in Halifax, or witliii. a fi'w dYliat other vessel did you lirin}; around the Horn? A. — I broiifjht the schooner "Yiva" in 1SS7. Q. — What tonna.Te was she? A. — About 02 tons. Q.— What did sIk' cost you at Halifax? About ^7.000. Q. — And as it cost von ^2.IMI(I to brinp her around she would stand you $-0.(Mil) in >'iitoiia? A. — Yes, she cost mo that in round flyrures, but I cannot say exactly as there is a preat deal of wear and tear and loso of gear in brin^jfinj; a schooner around. ;fej lO (i.— I»i(l vmi ;r< 105 .( (iir "Miiv Uriif" ill is!»:r; V.B. (^.—Wliiit loiii;;i'.'<' was s iiliiMit ns tons ln'? A.— Hill' wiiM iiiiili-r o von liiiow wliiil «ilic •OKI oriKiniillv? A. — Tin- piiilv wlio lion^'iil lnr oiiy;iiiiill,v in lliilifiix t«ild iin- sIm' roMt liiin IKMMMi liiiil ilovii licK- (^._l»i,l von liny ilii- •Marv Tavlor" in ISIMI? A.— Y«'m. lie WHS an olil xcsHi'j. .'II tons, and slit- cokI altoiil |4,IMMI. SI We lioii;;lit liiT al a |irival(> sale (i. — Who illd VOII liii.v her Iroin? A. — W'v hoiii^ht luT 20 fnnii Mr. Warren. (y — Warron. I Ih'Mcvc had lo sell al that (iiiu-? A. — i niidcrstood so. l}. — IHd VOII ;liiii<{ von had a K""*' haruain on that Hlii|i? .\. — Sin- was an old vcssfl, and I jjavc pi-rliaps all she was worth. (}. — >'oii sav VOII IK ver saw the "raroli-na" after hIk- left the port of Xictoria in \ssv,. IMd von p-t a Ittlcr from tln' I'liitrd States marshal at Alaska with re;;ard to that ship" A.— Yes. •5° Q — Wes there an enelosnre in that letter? A. — Yes. (j. — Tin- letter and eiulosiire art- aw follows: "Disfrict of Alaska. "I* S. Marshal's Ofl.ee. Silka. Xoveinhei'. 1st. 1SSH. "Jlessrs. Miinsie & Co., X'ietoria. M. <". "tieiitleinen: — I have the honor to iiiftiriii you that I have received from I he lloiionraltle Attorney-iieiieral of the I'liited Slates, orders to release to tlie ri;;litfnl owners the 40 sehooiier M'aroleiia,' !iei tackh', ajipaiel and fiiniitiire, as she now lies in tlie harlior at IMinalaska. in the district «if Alas- ka. Tlh- order on the l>e|>iily ('(diector of ('iistoiiis at Oiiiial.iska to deliver to yon the property is herewith en- closed. \'erv lesperlfully, •MARTOX ATKINS. "V. S. Marshal. "District of Alaska. '•r. S. Marshal's (>flic(>. Sitka. November 1st. ISSS. "V.. II. Walil. Ks<|.. r. S. DejMity Collector of CnHtoms. Oiiii aiaska. .Maska : '•Sir: — Yon are heiLhy authorized and directed to deliver to the ri;;litfnl owners, Messrs. Miinsie & Co.. of Yictoria. H. C.. the seized schooner "Carolena." of Yictoria. H. C.. her tackle, apparel and furniture, as she now lies in the harbor "BARTON ATKINS. "C. S. Marshal." of Oiinalaska. Cio You received this letter and that enclosure? .\. — Yes. Q. — You received that in the eiivelojie which I now show von : -Yea. Letter, enclosure and onv«dope filed as iJxhibit No. 11 fl. B.. "Carolena" case. (i.— Yon received tliein in ISSS? A.— Yes. Q. — \nd it was ihe first commiinicalion you had witli re- iiiwd to your vessel? A.--Ye9. W "▼▼^ 106 Mr. hifkiiiNoii:— TIm- |mii-II<'h wrw tii>iill)>am> in \hh7, nolwilliHlaiHliiiK iiiivlliiii); llit> .MiuhIiiiI «Im now. Mr I'ctfiH:— TliiH Im (lii> (liHl noiitli'iiiiiin Mm- owntr liiitl from tilt' rnitnl HtnlfH iiiitlinrilii-H. (Kxniiiiniilion l>y Mr. I'ctcrH <'«inliiiiH-<1,) (2. — Tliiil JH IIh* Hr-Ht nitMcc yon, yourHrIf, ]M'rMon)illy, (jot from tli*> I'nitt'tl Httilcb iiutliorith'H tliiit. you would ;;<■( your Hliip l»iirk? A. — V«'H. (}. — Tliiif w«s llic l!rH( iiihI only inlimnlion? A.— V'H. And llio further oxaminiiiiou of Hit' witnt-HH wuh iidjoitrn"(1 until tlu' iM'Xt xitliuK of (III- t'onimiNHioncrs. TIm- rommiHMioni'rH I lien roKo. 30 \lr,] 30 40 50 60 Oommissionerg under the Oonvention of February 8, 1806, between Oreat Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the LegislatiTe AsBembly, At Victoria, December 3, 1896. At 10..tO n.m. tlio CnniniiHgioncrH took their Hentn Mr. I'ctrrs: — I have a Htatenient matio up uh to the vouch- i'X'H ii'ivvii in <>viden<-f yi-Htcrdiiy, putlin^ them under neparate headN and adding up the I" I of tiiem. I nhall prexent that Htat«'ment to tlie rommiH.'- ki'm during th>' day. The CommiMHimier on the part of the Tnited HtateH: — Has eouuHel for the I'nited StateH seen tliein? Mr. DifkinHim: — Yen your Honour, I liave seen them. ' The CommiHHioner on tiie part of the I'nited States: — Are there any of (hone which you wIkIi to fjo in as evidence? )(r. Dickinson: — .Ml of them, and I should think f(»r tlio (>nlif!;htenment of tlie ('oniniissipendi.\. William Munsie. — The examination of tliis witness in tlie case of Olaim Xo. 1, Tlie "t.'arolena," was continued. Exa; ined liy Mr. I'eters: — Q. — Mr. Munsie, I wish to call your attentiiui to Voucher N(». :{. from W. I'. Sayward. which was produced yesterday. That voui-her contains some charjies for shin^iles supplied apparently to the "('aroh'na,'' and 1 want you to explain to the Conimissitmers how shingles canu> to be used in the outtit of the scho i|uil<> no iiiikIi Htipplii'H, anil tli<> raptaiu iM-iiij; pniviili'il Willi HiiiiH- fiiiiilH, if 111* dill run kIioiI Iu> wiih prt'pai'i'il to ri'pli'iiiKli. (i— Now Willi rcjjaril »o llic cn'w tlial you liail on lioaril lliiit nliip, you liiivi' alri-aily ili'siiilu'il tliat tlx-y wi'i'i' all wliili- !iicn, anil iiial Ik lorrt-it. Im il nol? A. — That ix ioitimI. Q. — ran you n\\r iiii' Ihc iiinn-H of Ihi' iTt-w? I liavi' taki'ii a iiiilf. anil I hci> fioin th;' 1 .!-iiiorani1uiii that wi-i-i* I'Dlsfortl, K'llwai'il Klii* IiIn, Diipont ami A. hay. Q. — Tlii'Hi' were Ihi- four hiinli'i-N? A. — Yi'b. (i. — Wi'ic IhcHf iiii'n of i>xpi'i'i)'nri-, or wire thry in*>xpi>ri fiHcd nii'ii'.' A. — Wi'ii, il wan in thi' rarih-r Hlajji-M of the K.'iliiif; liinlory. anil Ihi'V wi-ri- all iiii-n of i-xpcrii'iiri- in IIiok' ilavH. t^. — Ah a niatti-r of fad. in tin- year \HHii did you pay your raplain and your rrcw llu-ir wa^fR? A. — I imid the capl.tn rioinc advaiii-fN luily. Tin* niali' and rrcw were paid up in full lo Ihc time tlicy arrived in Victoria. Q. — .\m a mailer of fad liavc you made up a Ntateinent iik lo liow niucli you adiially paid Ihe rrcw? A. — Alioat ^\, ill III. (i.— The amount is exadly itsl.i)02.1'2? .\.~\ believe ho. (i. — Vou liavc made tlial up from vour booli I lM>licve? A. — YCH. li. — Is thai your original liooli showing; what yoii paid to the crew? A. — That is the original book. Mr. Peters: — This bool; is open for the examination of my learned friend, but we liave taken tlie tiKurcH from that book, and tile amount exactly |iaid according to it was |!1,(M)2.22. Tile rommissioner on Ihe jiart of the Tnited States: — I would like you lo give details of that now. and I would like to know wliether tlicy were paid l>y the voyage, or by tlio month, or how? Mr. reters:— I shall do that. (To witness) t^.— fan you tell us from that l.ook how much ''aittain <»00 which ymi ad vanicd him? A.- He had about f«K» in advance. Mr. Dickinsiui:— Hesides tlic |r>00? Witness: — It was about (filjO. Uy Mr. Peters): (i.— The e.\act amoiiiil I have liore is f2r>ll.70? A.— Yi's, I sec I here is 70 cents for tobacco. Q.— In what way was die master jiaid? A. — Tie was get- ting .•»;.f|0 j»er monlli. (2.— And nothing at all for his skins? A.— \othing for his skins. Q— ^Vliat wages do you allow him in your book? A.—' see him credited here willi *r>0 per month up to the iird of .August. (i.— From whit dale' A.— From March; from Februarv in fact. I see he was cicdiled on March 3rd with ijSol). anil that first payment was for February. Q- — Tl'at is when the season began? A. — Yes. Q.— Now Willi resrard to .lames Wake, the mate, I have here that lu> was paid ^2^7.50. Is that right bv vour book? A.— There appears to be 50 cents difference, it' was I think ?2S7. (i.— What was the lay of the mate? A.— The mate had #40 a month jind he was to get $\ per skin for what he caught in Ihe ship's boat. '''^! JI|««V 10 20 30 40 ■ < 50 108 Q. — The HliipV boiit siinu'liiiii'H ffocpi s( aliiit;? A. — Yes, il is callfd tin* iiiiitc'M lioat Q. — DdCN it no hunting )i» n iiHiial lliiiif,'".' A. — Yt-s. Q. — Does it iiiiiit iis often aw (lie otlu-r lioats'.' A. — It }r»n's out HiNiliii^. ii. — In tiiis year did tlu' mate's lioal no out sealing? A. — Tlie iiiat(>'s boat does not ^o out until tlie otiier Ixiats luive left tlie vessel, it is simply a sort of pit k up as we call it. and not a i-e;j;ular sealing lioat. <}. — Ah an addition to liis waires, the mate j^ets !|fl per sliin for all the skins cauuht on that lioat? A. — S'es. Q. — That boat Yhat did H. Mc<"onahay get? A.— 1 think he got $2(>ll.ri(l. It was for 17."» skins. Q. — Was he on the same lay as DuitonI? A. — ^Yes. Q. — These men got no wages, but sim|>ly got their lay on 1h*> skins 'i A.— That is all. Q.— I have it here that Kdward Shields got #2!tl ; is that correct? A.— Edward Shields had !ii!2!ll for 1!>4 skins. lie was on the s;ime lay as the others. Q._I see thar John Cotsford got #1.'.U ; is that correct? .\. — Yes, f'j;U for l.")4 ^kins. lie was on the same lay. Q. — \ow, those are all the hunters on board? .\. — Th ose are all. I would mention here that there may be a little difference as to the number of skins on board the vessel, and the number set out here, but we do not jiay for gray juijis; they wVhere are the majorilv of the gray i>ui) seals caught? A. — On the Palifornia and \'aiicouver coasts. Q, — And for some teason or another they are not caught lu the Itehring Sea to any great extent? .\.— \o. :| 109 -«ii.riti it? A. ■I 30 (^. — Now, ;is i('}{aids I he sciiiiicii, h-l us (aki- I). ]{iim8«-II. Is lliis book conccl in saviji^' lliat Ik- rctrivtMl |(!L'? A. — I liclicvr so. (^. — Tell us how tin- scaiiiiii were liircd? A. — Tlu'.v w«-r«» ]iai(l on ilic lav. a ptucnla};!' of wlial skins would 1m' worth lific in Xicioiia. 1 Ix-lii'vc tlitir lav was soni«'wln'r»' about lilt- ri.~)ili lav or ih<- (i'Mli. lint 1 am not i|nili' sui-c now. ( or !|iti..")((. That would allow us a little to cover exjienses. (^. — .\,,w loniiny; down to iliis particular vear of iss<■■■ ihat von paid Kus.-sell ftij? .\.— 1 see he is cit-ilited lieve "hv skins, !|f77." hut I paid liiin ftil'. (j. — So far as liussell is concerned, you :', anil #77 is still due him. 40 *» t^.-'— I have .lames .Mun};er down here as having been paid t'^.' A. — Thi-re is a balance due him of the difference be- IWMii ^i4(l and #77. 1 will say there is an apparent bahuw-e due them, yet there is not. I will explain that. When they came home I (old him 1 was not responsible for their wap'H after the time of the seizure. Tliey said they were destitute and that if 1 paid them up. either in full or in part, they would tfive me an assifrnmeiil of their wa; I made the best ter'ir.'.i« I could with each of iln-m. and these are the aiuountH 1 paid them, and 1 took an assii;iiinent of their wa^res t^. — So far as this claim is concerned, you stand in thoir shoes? .\. — Fxat'tly. ii. — \ oil il.iiiued you wore not liable to pay them after tho seizure, r. I liad to pro ni. terms I could with IIm'iu and took the assij; I made the best .Miment. not ex- pecting' the delay in settlement would be so hmp. or I never should have do.ie it. (1 was merely to assist thoin in the nieanlinie. !,■ j-WTiw^ no Mr. l'('(«'r«:— Willi remind to llic viMichcrs iir(Hlii«c«l vos- ti'i'day, I liavt' li.ul lliom tolallcd iiji. and for the convciiii'Uct' of tlu> <'oinniissiont rs I will jnit tlu-iii in. They are divided luider different heads, and are as follows: cm fit, other than jaovisions, j,'nns and anininuition f '2,T2\M'i Provisions il'itUS (inns and anunnnition O*)').!)! Snndries 1.7lJ;{.7- Value of selKioner 4,(I(MI.(»(( That IS outside of these wajies. flll,llll()..~>U 20 3« 'I 40 SO i J ni Q. — Now, .Mr. Mnnsie, I want to coini' to anotlier matter. In ISStJ \-ou had another sealing vessel. 1 believe? A. — Ves. (i.— Tl'i.it was the "I'athtinder." A.— V(s. (2. — Slu' hunted in Itehriu}! sea? A. — Yes. (2. — Can v<»n tell nie the number of boats or eanoes thai the "rathtliider" had? A.— She had five boats. <2. — Had she any canoes? A. — Xo canoes. i}. — Was she manned by white men? A. — White men. (i. — Xo Indians? A. — Xo Indians. Q. — In these 5 boats do you include tlip ship's boat, or had she tive ))oats besides the ship's boat? A. — She had Hv cap- tain tells me about the fourtli of Au<;ust. (i. — .\s a matter of fact how many seal skins did the "I'athtinder" briufj home that year? A. — 1,70(5. Q. — .\nd she !iad lished until the 4th of Autfust, so far as vou understand? -V. (}. — Who was the cajitain of the "rathtindei' -Wi! I hen his I lame wa« iiam O'Learv. Q.— Is William O'I.eary heie? A.— He i (.y — .\nd wlio was her mate? .\. — I beli l»!ividson, but I am not positive. (, — Xow the "I'athtinder" l»rouj;ht home 1.7tt<» skins, as you understand, caujrht up to the 1th of .\ugust? .\. — Ves, that is the information I received from the captain. (^— At that time -Am] since that. ()— Did you jret these skins? A. — He delivered to me 1 - 7rht in r.ehiiuf; sea? \. — Ves. (i. — Hid you disjtose of those seal skins that year, and at IK lO zo 30 40 10 6o wliii) i»iir on the coast aud to llehring Sea. Mr. l>ickins(Ui: — Your Honours, I desire merely to «tate that llie last (piestion is tlie seouid steji taken in going into llie ])robable catch of "<'aroleiia" in 1SS7 and in succeeding years. Now. of course, from the declaration in the chiims, .iiid from thes" (juestions, it is apjiareiit that my learned friends are about to itursue proof, t«'iiding to show the prob- able catch of tlie "riiiolena" for the m-xt year, 1SS7. That ipiestion will doiibtle.-'S come ui», as ai>j>ears by the claims heretofore presented, ami by the testimony, or that which was called testimony, before the Paris Tribunal. I reft>r to the <|uestioii of future ju'ofits. We are prepared to argue that <|uestion now, or of course take the direction of the • "ommissioners as to whethei- they will receive that class of testimony now. and listen to the argument later. We are ])repared to show your TTouours beyond cpiestion that this (lass of damages cannot be allowed, and we will show that both by the decisitni of the courts and by the decision of in- ternational Tribunals of .\rbitraliou. We wimi»ly wish a suggestion of tilt" tNuiimissioners as to when they would like to hear us upon the •question. The t'ommissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — For my own jiart ' had su]>](osed it was understood between counsel that these great questi(uis were to bo argued at the close of all the testimony. -Mr. Dickinson — Vi-ry well. I simply wish to be understood as not allowing this lestiiiKuiy to go in apparently by our '•oiiseiit. I interposed this statement so that the record will show that it goes in against our objection, and that we shall in this case and in all cases contend that future profits in any ca.se cannot be (onsidered as a i>roper measure of damages, notably and especiallv in cases wlieri' the seizure resulted in a total loss to the owner. Mr. Petc'i's: — So far as we are concerned, it appears to us iliat it would be almost ini]K)ssible to argii(> this ipiesti we liavc conii' ht-rc pi'cparcd lo meet, anv a vciy lar>:f i|U('stion in ihis case. 1 may also point out that in (he scvcial cases whicli come u]), tlic cir- cumstances of eacii .f ilicm, with re<:ard to this ])articular matter will be dilfei'-nt. It would be almost impussible for lo the ('(unmission al this time, witlioui knowledp' of the e\ i denc«'. and without havinj; the f.icis laid before them, to 20 conu' to anv cuiiclusion which would be satisfactory. Mv leained friend tenders an objection to this testinnmy, and fit course it will be undcistood all tliroiij;li that he enters that (d)jectii)U. Mr Dickinson: — And takiii}: as little time abotit it as pos- sible. Mr. Peters :—\'eiy well. The ("ommissioner (ui the part of the I'nited States: — You hav«' chiimed foi' this estimated catch in 1SS7? Mr. I'etcis: — It is foinially put foiwaiil in the claim. Ml" IMckinson: — It is not so specilied in the claim, but it is |)iobably included in the ueiieral altiiination of daniai^es. Mr. I'eters: — If my leained frii nd would excuse nu', it is siuH'ially mentioned in the claim. Parajiraph 5 sets cml • "Uv 50 reason of the premises fuither iirosecution of the said sealing; voyajjte durinj; the year l>'S(i was wholly ju-evented, and the owner of the said schooner was also ]»revi'nted from usinj; her foi' the purposes of seal huntin}; dui-ini'; the year 1SS7, as lie otherwise wiMild have done, and linally the said schooner, her tackli . apparel, oiitlit and lar^'o, were wholly lost to those interested in the same, and other loss, dama};e and e.\- peiise, were suffered and incurred by the persons so interest- v? A.— It.v Mr. <'ariH'. (2.— That was .voiii- parliu'i? A.— In tlic urocfrv ItiiHiiicss. (J.— Was Mr. ("arnc inliicslt d in the '•ralhliiidcr?" A. — He was. (^. — VihI 1i,> i;,.|,t a book which imrportH to show wliat? A. — Tlic anuninl of wajtcs oaiiic*! In each nicinhcr of the crew. (^. — And fidin lliat anioiiiil of wafirs can you jiidKt' tlu' nuin- hcr of seals each man canfihl? .\. — I would not like to say. I sec llu' amount ni^'" i" dollars, hut I have for},'olt('n for the lime what amount they jfol per skin for that year. Q. — In that same liook is llnir .i nu-mo. mad.' I>y yourself xliowiiii; the catcli of ^eals? A. — The memo, was made by mvself. 20 30 40 .Mr. Djekinson:— I iindersiand this is a memorandum made liv (lie partner .tflei the return of the ship. .Mr. r'-to you know when the "Pathtinder" entered the Itelninj; sea in 1SS7. A.— I do not remember that, but T presume Captain O'Leary could tell. (i.— How many boats did you liave on the "Pathfinder" In the vear 1SS7? -Si.\ boats. Q.— That is one more than vou Iiad the vear before? A. -Yes, ^l — And you had a corresponding number of hunters in 50 1SS7? .\. — Yes, a lorresjiondinfi number of hunters. . ii — Had she a shii)'s boat in a«'.v pups, by askiui; my learned friend wliedier he diaries the United States for the jnips? Mr. Peters: — Most nnqnestioiiably I do, if lliey took our pupa why should they not pay foi' them. We will jjive evi- dence as to their value. 20 50 6q (To witness): Q. — What is the value of these ffrey i»ups as a fjeneral rule? A. — At the jiresent lime we sell the skins as they run. and tliev are worth as much (o 11s as the best skins we have "Tot. Hut in ISSli they were not sold in that way. W«' sold them then for about #±(1(1 ajiiece, of course they were much smaller than the seals. Q. — I think I am rirey jniii skins in 1SS(t was about !|»1.7r>? A.— Well, from lil.no to f'J.(»(». I think I ^ot i^'2.i)<) for mine, but I am not positive. 1 believe 1 sobl sionie skins to Mr. SjuMii^, and I believed he allowed me $2.00 f(U' them. These were the jjrey i>ups I ifot on the o(»ast. Of course the buyer and ISDd, wliicli will afterwards be ncessary lo be (luiuired into by this Commission. Mut as (liese years have iioih n-r to do with tlu' present case, I do iio( |»idpose to exmaine him about tluni at the present lime. The ('(Uiimissioiier on (he part tif (he I'liited S(a((s: — Mr. Pe(ers, how does (lie lav of hiiiiteis and crew of ISS" compare widi that of 1886? Mr. Peters: — I will ask that ipiesdon. (To witness) — (^ — Was tliere any dilVereiice in the lays? A. — Yes, I believe (here was, but I hardly know what (he priie was in 1SS7, as i( is not marked liere. It would ln' about 11. -jn or sfL.'id per skin. (i». — Probablv .Mr. Caine niiijht explain that later on. A. —Yes. The ('oinmissioiier 011 tiie part of (lie I'liKed S(a(cs: — Have you conipul( poin(. (To witness} — (.2.— (i( neially speakin>>. you say (her(> was a dilleiMice between I lie lav of IHHd and the lav of 1SN7, but 1 1 ' lO 20 30 '|0 50 60 A.— Well, llu'ic lilt' ciiptiiiii and you ciiinot },'iv<* Hic I'xacI tlillViciicf? A.— I cannot nivo it; i will not sav positivcl.v that it was ditTcrcnt. (^._Yonr i»arlnt'r, Mr. ("aiiif. who kt-pt that book, would l)c al»U' to Htatc? A.— lie ininht. Q.— In anv cam- that hook shows actuall.v tin- amount that you really did pay to the crew that year? A.- In dollars, ves. Q._So that, so far as the "ralhfinder" is eoneeriu-d, that hook shows you the amount you jjot for the skins and the amount vou paid out for them? A. — Y« s. (i.— Tell me the amount you p.id, ineludint; lay and every- thiuK else, for that vear? " A. -The amount of wap's paid on aeeount of the "I'atliHnder" for IS1S7 was «!S,r.!»2.4l', and that includes the lay and wafjes and everylhiuK else. (2.— What was llie amount of the outtit? A— I do not re- iriember; it is not stated here. (.1 — How nuiny were there in the crew? would only he about four or five men. (2. — And the lay? A. — There would be the mate on wafjes and the hunters at so much per skin. The hunters would take so much jter skin. There would be five men on the lay. The Connnissioner on the part of the I'lnted States:— The crew would take live tiftyfifths, or one eleventh? Witness: — Yes. Hy Mr. refers:— (2. — Now to come to this inventory. There was an inven- tory taken from the "Carolena,"' of which I have been served with a copy and which I propose to i)ut in evidence. This purports to be the inv«'ntory. "Received from ('ai»tain ('. TT. .\bbey. conimandin}^ l'. S. steamer "Corwin," above mentioned property, wliiih I hold until denmnded by legal authority. Signed 'Anderson,' dep- Mty United States Marshal." (i. — Have you seen that? A. — Yes. This recei]»t, given by the d«'puty I'nited States Marshal to the c:ive a detailed slaleinent of what was on boaid Tlnif sidp? .\. — I cannot. (i. — Does this inventof_\ include tliinLrs that \on 'lave not nientioneil at all? .\. — It inclndes thin^vs tliat are new to lai and that I had !<>r!.><>lten about. Q. — And that actually ajtpear to have Ikm n taken fioni Hi;- !«hip? A. — Yes. I am not sure 'mii that I was a little in error about the (ISl skins. I see there are (iS(> here, and that would account ;"or the two skins. 20 30 40 ;o 69 Mr. I'eters:— I befi to hand in the followinj; schedule: "In- ventory .\i-iicl«-s on I'oard the schooner 'Caroleiia,' of N'icto- ria, I'.. ('., seized by the I'.S. Steamer 'rne f(>re-sai!, fail, one mainsail, fair; one jil», fair; one staysail boom, tojipiii}; jib. piior;'" anil then there is a loii}; list of articles which are all sujtposed to be marked "poor." As a matter of fact, is there any reason for callint'(»od tU\ji all tlie same. I do not know how old it was. .Mr. Dickinson: — We will cem ede \(>ur Honnurs that tliat ensi":ii mav be (dd. bnt it was never jioor. Mr. l'l til (> ojiinion o f tl> I'nited Mr Dickinson:— The I'nited Slates imirshal was wrotif;. Mr. I'eteis: — I am triad to heai- yon say so. The Commissioner on the part of the I'liited States: — We do not expect it to be any jieorer when we ^et tliroufjh with this heaiin I lew? A. — Tiicv l«'lon;{cd to the cicw, wiio foiMw! tlu'ir own li('ddiner rent. |ier annum, but what .u:<-s would have been wortti up to th<' present time, would seven ji.- \(Mi Jiave niveti us the iiaiiK s of tin- ck w of the "Car (deiia" now will \(im tell us what has becmne of tliein. t'ap- tain (l-ilvie is dcail? .\.— Yes. (^Where is .lainues Mlake -lie is dead. ii. — Where is Dupe lit? A. — \ believe hi is dead. (i. — Where is .M( t'enahay' -I understand he is dead als ti- — Where is Kdwaid Shields? .\. — He is deail H, was lost on the ".May ISelle" last year; he was master of the "Mav I'i'lle" and the v i ssi I and all hands wire lost. Q. — When is lolin <'iitsl'iird? A. — I understand he is Us Sr.-il.le. ii. — Have you been able to find him? A. — No. Q- — Have yon made empiiries about him. .\. — ^'es, but I have not been ;ib1e to find him. Q— ^Vhe|•e is I). Unssell'' A.— .\f last aicouiits he was In Seattle, but I do not know where he is. I have written him a letter, liiit j;iit no ansv\er. <}.— \Vhere is T. .McLariy? A.— I am not sun whether he is dead oi' not, I li.-ive lust the run of him. (i. — Have von made t mpiii'les fer .McLarty? .\. — Yes. I rather think tli.it he is dead, because on niakiiio yon know when he died? .\. — I made a not note somewhere at the time of his death, but I do not remembor Just now when he died. 118 ^ lO 3" 40 00 (i.-Wliiiv ,'lli of (iinc' A. — Tliiit WJI8 liiH tirwt season in ni,v ('ni|»io,vnuMit. i}. — l»o you lnt lie w«'nl into after- wards? A. — No. I do nol. I rather lliiid; lu' went IIhIiIii^. lie lion? A. — Provision mer- chant. ii. — You were a partner of Mr. Carne's? A. — Yes. i}. — \Yas there any one else in the firm? A. — No. i}. — What had been yrat. and got up in 1S7S all his ]iatt<'rns for the first stoves that were made in the ]>rovince. ii. — What is your present age? .\.— I recognize the 4th day of •lanuary as my birthday. In 1S40 I was born. T will be 4S y«'ars in one month and one day. Q. — .\re you a native of this province. A. — I am a native of Nova Scotia. ir.j A 10 20 1 30 140 50 60 l^.— Il«w loiij; luivc .voii kiuovii Mr. A. .1. Ucclit*'!, from wlmiii voii iHirrowcd iimiicv? A.— About twt'lve .vciirB, I Ihiuk. ' (2.— Voii know liiiii in ISS(i? A.— Yfs. viii(f? \. — I nudeiHland so. (J, — Voii are vei;v j;*""' friends? A. — Weil, yes. g._.\inl liave id'cn for nianv years? A. — About twelve veais auo, I lliink. was my first a<(|uainlame willi liiiii. (^.— Was il 1- years in ISSIJ, or is il 12 years now? A.— Xo, il was almiii 11! years umi from t!ie presi-nt time, or per liaps 1'! years. Tiiai was really my (irst ae(|iiainlanee with iiim; alliioatfli 1 liad known liim by si)j-iit I was not aei|uaint- ed Willi liim. ly — So tliat you have known him sinee IS.S'!? A. — About iss:{, 1 think. (i.— And all llial lime lie kept an liolel? A.— I tliink lie did. but I am not iiiiile jiosilive. lie was in the hotel .Im'u I first reaily yol aei|"'''"'''tl ^^i"' ''""■ (i.— Did he aid von in tfellin;; iiji Ihi se claiins? .\. — Xo. (2._\()i ill nil?' A.— Xet at all. Q.— Were lliey got ap in liis hotel, or in his phue? A. (i. — Were they prepared in his ottiee? A.— X( iy — Or in hi.s luesiiiee (2. — .\re you "iiiilt about Ihal? A.— Posilive. They were prepared in l>rake A .Jaekson's oHice. Q, — He was not pnsenl in Ihe eourse of the pri'paration? A.— Xo. Q._X(,( ;it all? .\.— Xot to my knowledge. (). — Xow, the shares were twenty one and one-third eaeli ill Ihe sliij)? .\. — Wliat liave you reference to? il — To the shiit •'('aroleiia," in regard to wliieli this hear- ing is had? A. -.My first shares were 21 ; there are M shares in Ihe ship. q. — .\iid Iwenly one and oiielhird shares would make just a third of tiie sliip? .\. — I presume so. (j._X„w. if I lie value of Ihe ship liad been ^2(MII( this pecn liar sum of fliUT. Ilial got into all the bills of sah'. would b( .1' 1st one third of the *2lt(l(». would il not' -1 have not livided it. but 1 presume il would be, ajiproximately. (^.—Il would lie about !iii2IM»0 for the wlude ship, aecording to tills figure of Iplili' in this bill of sale, instead of if.'tSKII? .\. — I suppose so. Q.— And oiie-liiird of the |:{S00 would be how mueh? A — .|!12(il» odd dollars. g._Iiistead of the |(J(i7 would it not? .\.— Yes. (}.— And y«ii swear that the amount put in the bill of sale was incorreVl? A. — 1 did not say that il was incorrect. {}. — Do yoi.1 not say Ihat the amount that was imf in Ihe bill of sale did not properly re]tresent one third of the value of the ship? A.— Yes, 1 say that. (I — Did you say that the total value of the shi]), as you had estimated it. belweeti you and Malthewson and rripi- harr, was $:?S0(». (>rly. I, ItfViW 123 ii lO no 30 (2.— \ii«l >«Mi NtiUI i( (liicN iiol ri'|H'iM«'iit wliiil voii iittiially |iiiid? A.— Tliiit \H lifilil. (^._Yoii lioii^'lil tirNi rii|uliiir('H hIiiiit siimI pd 11 l»lll uf xiili', did von? A.— Vaid liiin liow nintli caKli? A. — I Inivc for tjofton Mu' i'\iut amount (/.—Yon cannot trll Hit- exact anionnt? A.— No. (/. — Ami ,vi,| von vonrsclf Inne monc.v sepiiralc from \\w account of ('arne iS: Mnnsie. A. — Yes. g.— Wlu're did .von Ivcep il? A.— I liad a snmll safe ami licpt it tluTc. (/.^IIow mncli monev arc v(Mi accnslonu'd to l»ccp in vonr safe? A.— I liave had' as lii^li as IKMMM). .venr 1S!)0. il. — TTow did yon pay I iipiliarl tlie casli llial ^von did pay liim? A. — I ]»aid him in cash. (M) and one for 11(10. Q. — DonI mind the notes jnst now. Yon ])aid him some nione.v? A. — Yes. Q. — \Ylu're? A. — I do no( reniemlK r wheic. i-i.- — Did yon i)ay hini near .vonr safe? A. — I do not ro- member. — Did y(m make any niinnles of the payment? A. — I do mi! know that 1 did. Q. — Did yaid. ii. — Yon remend)er it was !|<>(>7? A. — I do not say posi live to the d amonnt of cash .von took to ]>ay tliese notes? .\. — T have not. Q. — Y «<■(•? A.— I have mil. (J.— K is jntd jioMnihle that fame & MnnHie nd^ld have paid that? A.— That waH a privati- nnitler of my own; It had no etMineition with fame & .^Innnie. (^._'|'o |„. snre. hut you nii^jlit iia.e paid hillw with Came it .Munwie's money and haid you ever add ftiCiT to .|:t:{;t and see what it wit the Hist inoitnap'? A. — I do not know th.-it it is lost, i have ha<) oecasion to hunt it up. and I ]ii-('sume it is. Q. — Tlie amount of the other mortj;af;e was just !f(!(i7, was it not? A. — Yes, so it appears fi'om the i-ecord. ().— And that ran lo Ueehtel. did it nof A.— Yes. (i. — And that was when vou liouijht out Matthewson"' A. Y»'S. ^o (l(», 1 thini;, 'on nave him a niortj/aj";*' for too much? A.— Xo, 1 did not consider it was loo much. It was stitliciiiit to cover int< res! (}.— That is what you stated on direct examination. Ho you say it was fcu* interest? A. — \Yell, it was sutlicicnt to 50 cover intei'est. Q. — Was it for interest? A. — I presume it was an amount to cover inii'i'cst. (i.--l>o you swear (ha( is what it was for? A. — \o. 1 won't swear, but I itresume it was. '? — ^'on have iilso swein >()ii jiaid i( before vou boijowed the f l,(IO(t. Yon swear yon j.aid (he *(;(!7? .\.- I said that the mortsterday. .Mr. Mnnsie, that yon paid thai interest on the old morttra^'e? .\. — I jiaid the old in- teiest up lo the lime the new mortira^e was made. Q.— Now, that first morl<,'a^'e that is n')t here and that yoa^ cannot (Ind was for l^mT. and that happens to 1h> just ;;V<(ut unelhird of the value of the sliij) if she was worth Sl*,s(()()? A.— About. Q — And at the same lime you say that the differonc" be- tween ^.^Od and ^fi(;7 you think to the best of your knowledge and belief was interest? .\. — Yes. Q- — Now. when yon look the second morl};a}je. Mr. Mnnsie. 122 lO 20 30 I I i 40 SO Go iiiul i»{ii pW~ old iiu.itjfiijrc (liar .vou ftavi' Itoclitt'l at tlic time .vou lM»ii}j;h( (he scc-oud sliMif was tlis rha rff«'d ',' .V.— It was disc-liai'trc'd. (i. — And a iii valuation of tlic sliip at |>l.'.(MI(), was pur in. ant' if the sliiji was woitli fl'.dOO, tlic $1,(MM» n-pn'scntcd just half !k'I' valut'. did it not? A. — Ahonl tliat. (i. — And a I tlic same lime you im leased tlie miiuber of sliaics from -I to ;{:{? A. — 1 jiavc a moitpifje on ',V2 shares to cover the one thousand dollar loan. Q. — That is what you said, that yon increased the niimttei of shares in the sliij) when yon nioi't<;a.!j;cd to Andrew Itcchtcl for the ifl.OdO? A.— I iiioi-tjiaired ;{2 shares of (he sliii. lor the lo:-ii of the '^l,(W). ii. — Now I waiil to ask \o\\ another (|iicstioii. (Vnniii^ back to rlia(. yon said you wished to exidain something;. lla\(' you any exjdaiiadon to tfive as to the jiaymeiit of interesi on the ^<(><»7 before yon f^ave (he new inorty;ati;e? Have you jiiiy exp'anatitm to make about (liat? Did you jiay it? A. — F lU'csniiic I ]»aid the interest up to the day that the new moii- ji;a<>e was 1(>7 as interest? A.— No. I be- lieve I paid jns^ (he amount of 'iiterest due. Q. — The interest due on what? A. — From (he time that the mortnajre was drawn until it was cancelled and (he .lew one issued; that would b»' nearly six months. i.1. — Interest on how much money? A. — Dii !|>.">(M». Q. — You i»aid the interest, and how did you pay it; did yon pay it in cash or by cliet-k? A. — In cash. Q. — And where did yon pay it? A. — I do not remember. ^ (i.— Did yon take lieclKel's receipl ? A.— I think 1 took the cancelled mortfiajie. and perhajis it was endorsed, and perhaps I toidc (he receipt. 1 am not positive. Q. — When did you last see the mortfratre for f(»(i7? A. — 1 do not remember. il. — Did it have any meiiMuandum on it? A. — It would have a di8cliar(l Ihat were furnished the "Carolena." A. — That was on ac- count of (he vessel beiiin seized. Q. — lint the supplies were furnished Ion;; before she was seized? A.— Well, i( was all in (he year lSS(i. Q. — She was seizev original vouchers for (he amount paid at (he (iiiie wi(li the reii'ii»(s upon (hem? A.— Kxactly hers as low as fl.SCi. bii( you did (1h> (I. — You preserved \or(- itajte itself indorsed upon it. You did not preserve i( (U- yon iiave 1 At it? .\.—\ do iio( know what became of it. I have no idea. Q._You have looked for i(? .\.— Yes. Q. — Was there any other agreemenl endorsed uitoi. iliat last mortnafie. or any other writiiif; upon it, except (he dis charge? A. — I do not reineiiiber. Q. — There was no a^'reeiiieiit between you and Hecldel? A. — Not that I am aware of. Q._^Vill you swear that there was not? A.— None to my knowledj;e. Q._Will you swear that tliere was not. whether you have remembered it or not? A. on it ; I cannot say. -I d o not reniem bev what was Q. — AVhen yon t»oii.i1it (he second share from I'niuliart in 123 lO 30 50 60 Fohniaiy, 1885, and l-orrowed tlu' nunu'y from lU'chtol, tbrro liixl bi'c'n no si-izured in ISt'lirin}? Sea. to your kuo\vlodj?t'? A.— No. Q.— And yoM and JScclilcl. wlicn you iKurowed that money did not con'teniiilatc tlu'i-' w a fair stat«'ment of the case. There weic many which were not ori}>inal and which he ex- I'lained about. Mr. Dickinson:— He has broufrht either the original or a cojtv. (To witness): That is so, is it not? A.— I have broiiRht the original or copies for all the vouchers for 18S(!. Q._And you have the orijjinal or copy of every voucher except this one? A. -I have not the mortpifje nor a copy of it. Q. — (\in you tell me, Mr. Munsie, how you could remembe' how to ^jet the duplicates for vouchers ranjiin}; all the way down to |1. .">(>? A.— I had a little menuuanum book in whicl! I enter the vouchors as presented. Q. — Diti vou alwaxs cnler the vouchers in the nunnoran- ilum Itook iis they wJ-r*' presented? A.— At the be},'inninK of tiiat ytar I thoujrht I would U'n'm to keep a record of what I was doiufi and that was the lirst year 1 made any entiy at all. Q._y,„i Ko])* the nu'Hiorandum of the vouchers as tlu'v were jiresented. .\.— -Yes. (^ — Hilt you kept no nu-morandum of the jjoods as they wer<' oKiired? A. — Xo, nor I do not ria}ie? A. — No. (]. — N(U' on the third jwijie? A.— No, not at the one time. Q. — .\s you have already stated these were written down as the bills came in from time to time? A.— .\ii|)roximately. Q. — And you did not add the date of the Mils in the memor:nidnni A.— N< Q. — Nor the day of the payments? .\. — No. Q. — When were (he words "paid" written in? time they were ])ai.1. O. — .\nd at difTerent times as yon paid (hem": .'i( .lifferent ti'ees. At the CM, , 1T-»»F» T" 124 1< 10 20 30 40 so Q. — >.'<>w. Mr. Miiiisic, vi>u have itrcsciilcd Hh' inort^iip' that was iiuulc for tlic !iii,(MI(> lo A. .1. Utrlitd. Von n-co^ iiixc (liis paiici- "Kxliiltil !) id von pay it in l)ills? A.— I do not rcnicinbor wliat I paid it in. (i. — Do yon ivnicinhcr wliclhcr yon jtaid it in ;iohl or in bills'' A. — I do not i-cnicndui. Q. — Or in sihci? A. — Not likely in silxcr. Q. — Where did yon ]»ay it.' A. — I do not renieniher. Q. — V(Hi eannot i-eiiifnihei- whcr*' yon paid the :(>1.(MI(». hnf yon say yon paid it on or ahont the dale ot the dischaifj;*'? A. — 1 do not feint inlu'i- where I paid it. Q. — Was Hechtel present? A. — He innst have been. ii. — Don't yon remember the fart of payinjj: thai ijfl.lllUi ont to disehai'fjc that moitjiJijAc? A. — I know 1 paitl thai money. Q. — Yon do not remembei- whether yon paid it to him or whether he was present, lint von ]iaid it to him dirertlv? A. —Yes. Q. — Where did yon .uet the cash from \o '•.i\ lii'i. whether it was ill bills or in ffold? A. — It is lia;''!y ;■■ r .(nestion To ask a man where he f.',ets his money. (.}. — I do not mean \vhere yon born \\ ! ii, '>. tu\y\\\u\ii or that kind? Unt where did yon take ii fr .11 tvhen yon paid il lo ISeclitel? .\. — I took il onl of the si alinir business. Q. — I refer to the identical money yon paid I'echlel, did yon }{et it ont of yonr safe (\r ont of the bank? A. — I do not remember. Q. — Did von l;eep any iiauk acconni in your sealing Imsi ness? A. — Yes. in my sealinir business I di yon opened your liank account? .\. — I have. (I. — Will yon produce that book.' A. — I will, if necessjiry. ii. — IJe jfooive us Ihe date at which yon opened ytmr bank account in IS!M(? A. — I will do so. i8l>, 2- f Mr. Dickinson; — ^'onr Honours. I would ralli; the cross-e.xaminatiiin of tliis wilm'ss after rece^^ I'oiitinne Cross-examination <••' Mi-. Mnnsii' resinned by Mr. Dickin- son a I '2:i'i. Q. — The Inst entry « I'liink on :! •• pafies shown yon in the ]ia|>er marked for i«',iiilificalii"i (ni,-- morning by the secretary was made in ISS(!', A. — \'es. tiiisi 10 10 30 63 125 ii. — (til I Ik- lirsl tlin'i- piip's? A. — (Kxaiiiiiiiii};) Drake & .liickstiirs iiiiiv mil liiivf Ik'cii; lliiil e. A. — I am not Ml!-:' wiiat I liid iis( . t^. Tile iii(!liiai.\ lead pencil? .\.— I presume so. il- \ (111 snmeiiiiiis eariied it in your pocket. I see a iiieiii'irjii'diiiii ill the hack in ISS7 — various memorand.'i — a''- diesscs ;iiid mat l< I's ajipei'tainin^' , seal tishint; and the lial.its of the fiirseal? A.— Yes. (2. — So liiat yen iiiiisl have had il around with you? A. — I piesiiiiie I had somelimes. When I speak of ISSU I have reffi-ciice more to tiiose liills. Q. — Now did you have this hoidv yesterday? A. — I don't liiiiik su. Q.— Where did you ^et if? A.— From Mr. IVters. (i.— Mr. i'eicrs had it yesierday? A.— I think so. i]. — The entries are all in pencil. .\. — They ar«'. Q. — Hid you jiive us the ihile that you opened your bank act (Mini? ,\. — Yes. (i.— And what was the date? A.— The .'{1st dav of DeciMii- h( r, I son. Q.— And at what hank? A.— The Hank of IJritish <'oluiii- liia. Q.— Yon liave kept the account ever since at tluit bank? A.— \is. (^ — Do villi k<(]( an account in any other bank in Victoria 40 or elsewlieic? .\. — Not in this line of business, (i. — That is. an individual account? A. — X< no. Q.— And whin was il that von had the ten rhousand dol- lars ill the safe as iiiiich as ten thousand dollars? A. — Af- ter selliiif; the skins frian the vessels. (i.— Not at any tiiiu' before ISSti? A. — Xot before ISStl call o you chantje tliaf now? A.— I said two or tliree, or several, 1 dcui't reinemlier \\liicli. <^— Now you p.iid si.xty dollars at a time a iiatli? .\.--Alioiil s( mi annually. (^— Did you pay bv dieone? A.— No. I don't Ihat 1 did. (i— Did you pay by cheiiiie after December. 1S!M»? A.. I do not reiiicmbcr. Mr. IMers:— There are none after December, 18!t(). ceordiiiff to your remember ler you i»aid by (i.— Yon don't reiiiember thou;;li wliefh cllei|ll.e (u- not? A.— I do not. (i.— Ill whose hand writiiif; are the liodv of the reeeiptR? .\.— (Kxaminiiiiii 1 cannot ti II you. /i— ''''"'.v iill appear to be in the same handwriting? A.— riiey appear to lie; I don't know whose handwrilinn. ^^— \Yere those receipts for these si.xlv didlar semiannual payments given yon at the time voii jiaid the inonev? A —I 126 '>\> l» lO am not ixwlfivt' wlu'tln'i* tlu-y wt-iv or ih)1 ; I jmosuiih' tliey wt'iv; I mil not jtositlvt'. Q. — Not iHisitivo 118 to ixuy out' of llioin? A. — No, 1 do not renu'inbor powitivel.v. (f. — Vou cannot scloct the loct'ipts that are duiilicatcs in tile lot? A. — 1 oannot. ii. — They all seem to be in the same handwritiuji;, wlietlier diiiilicates or not? A. — Tliey seem to lie. (i. — To whom did vou ajiplv foi- duplicates? A. — Mr. Ikclitel. y. — Do you luiow Mr. rieclitel'a handwritinj;? A. — 1 could not swear to it. Q. — I>o you know it? A. — 1 do not know it. Q. — Were there numbers on the receipts when you received them "numbers one to eleven inclusive"? A. — I do not re- nu'inlier now; I presume tliey were. (). — Vou didn't put tliem on did you? A. — 1 did not put thrm on. (). — And they have not been put on since tliey were in 2o your possession have Ihey? A. — Not to my knowleds;*'; I don't remember imttinji them on. Q. — Is Mr. Hechtel enj^af^ed in any other business except this and hotel keepiiifj? A. — I do not know. Q. — He sold you some provisi(ms, did not he; a lot of hams and so on? A. — In those early days I believe he kept a pi};- fjery in connection with his hotel, where he cured hams and bacon in connectiom with his hotel business. (.}. — You d(m't know if he has been enpifjed in any other business? A. — He was mining;, I believe, before he bej?au iO the hotel business. Q. — Do yon know who wr<»te the ink over the in-ncil num- bers? A. — I do not. (.1. — For instance, there (showing witness receipts)? A. — I do not. Q. — It is done there rij^ht alonj? isn't it? A. — I can't swear to it. Q. — Do you know how the receipts came to Ik> nuiiib(>red for the intei'i'st i>ayiiients rejfiilarly l»y Mr. Hechtel «u' any- liody i'lse? A. — I do not know. 40 Q. — They were not all writti'U at the same time, were they? A. — Not to my knowledge they were not. Q. — Vou tfot them separately si.x months apart, didn't vou ? A . — S'es. t^. — .\nd were yfui present when they were written? A. — I was not. (.}. — Tliev were presented t<> yon. w(>re they? A. — Ves. Q. — From time to time? .\. — From time to time, yes; pay- iiHMits were made with the exception of a few that were mis- laid. 50 Q. — .\nd they ran from 'H't for five years, didn't they? A .—From 'S."). {}. — Have you any « x]ilanati(m to make as to liow they ap- jiear to be written in the same ink and the same liandwrit- in^r? .\.— Tiiless Mr. IJechtel wrote them himself. Q. — Now. when vou made this Sisl.tHiO mort;;aK«, you made it upen just half the boat — iliirty two shar«'s. lialf of sixty- four? \. — Thirty two shares. ii. — ,\iid yen still held one third in your own name that r,o you didn't iiKU-tnajie? A. — Thirty two shares were encuiii- liered. Q. — You didn't nuu'tfjafte that to Hechtel. .\nd after- wards you ac(inired the remuiniiii!; share from .Matthewson? A. — N(»; at that lime, when the imMtfja>j;e was made 1 liad ac<|iiired the share. Q. — So tliat you owned the entire boat' entire boat. -I owned the Q.— Hut you only mortuancd '^2 shares? .N.— :?2 shares. Q,— You j'isl said, as I understood it that tliere was one 127 20 30 40 mentioned? never did; I A.— I didn't :!.iiiiii' not nM)iti;ii|u;('d. Tin re were two Hliares then not nioit quired? A. — There xscre .■{2 shares not niortj^a^ed. Q. — And the tindividcd liajf of tlie boat was not ne:-ed. ^i. — Was lliere any reason, wlien yon owed tht^ni a debt t»f 10 ?rMif»ti borrowed money, an«l wlien yon owned t\\>^ ')oal, wiiy you didn't jnil on a mortjiaye (m tiie entire boat? A. — I eon- sidere(i security on tlie :{•_• shares sutticient foK the Unm. ti. — And ISeihlel didn't ask for it? A. — I don't remend>er what 1h' asked for. ( (/.--lie didn't ask for any more, did he? A.- Not to my i-elli'(tion. i) — At the time of the Riving of the mortc.in s did Heehtel knov/ that you were fjoiufr into the sealin*; business? A.— J (ohldu'i answer that (luestion. ii. — Did you lie.ir his American citizenship A.— I did not. (■i. — You never did? A. — I wouldn't say I Ii.ive Inter, but J did nu\ viMi H\>iu il? A.— I ,lu not rcinciiilifi-. ^i- — Voii (Ion I rciiicinhcr whcllici- voii sit^iUMi i(? A. — I tloii't i-cnicnilKT, no. Q. — Do von icnu-nilx r the anionnt of il? A. — I do no( rc- niciiihcr llit> cxucl iunonnl. (i. — Well, jiboul? A. — I could nol sa.v now. (i.— ("jin't y»»n sav aboul? .\.— No, "l i|o nol icincinbcr now; I have not seen (lie ciaini siinc, lo ti.— Wlial was il foi ? .V— A sci/.nic and dt'ti-ntion of (he csscl, I prcsnnic. il. — Seal skins? A. — Seal skins il- — NVIiiit did von pnl in lli<- vainc of llic sliip at? A. — I don'l icincnibci' now; I tliink il was flOOO. Q.— You made thai slalcnnnl lhi'on<;h Mr. Hmkc? A.— I lliiiik so. il- — •'<'< iiH' refresh your incnioiy by your own voucher; now look af I he bill rendered by .Mr. I'jrake. declaration and two <-opies.\Vhal was that that he char<;ed you for? A. — 20 (Kxaniiu); bill) I jiresunii' this was for iireparinj.' the 'laiins. Q- — Ami whal was youi' claim for. din}i down more than once? A. — Only once. (i.— And that was in issy-' A.— 1 think 1SS7; I won't be positive, but I tiiink il was in ISS". Q. — JIow much was he paid by you altop-ther? You ])ai."i(l. whatever it is. as your projtortion, didn't you? .\. — ^■es. Q. — Amonfi In w many? .\. — I don't know. ( do noi know what others i)aid him. Tlial was the receiut he hand- 5*^ ed me tor my proportion when I paid iiiin. il- — .\ ijm-stioii (M" two aiiout |»i'ovisions. I notice an item here of ]nlol br/ad; just tell us what that is? A. — .\ pilot bi-.ad is the bread we put on board for crews when they are out in boats. il. — How doi's il come -It comes in boxeH. il. — Alxnit what sixe Ixixes? ' .\. — O. various sizei il. — How mucli do (hey weifih" -I don'l know. (i.— ")•( pounds to the box? .\. — They are from 2"! ]iounds 60 perhaps, up: I don't know how mni-h. Q. — .\nd aboul how much are thev a box and' -O. or a \t — I don't i-emember what (hey were in those years. il. — Yon didn't pay a very Iar;re price did yon'; not a very larj;e price. (i.-\Yhat is the lar}fest box; how much poundajre? .\. — O, perhaps r>(l pminds:'! am not sure. Q' — \Nell. aboul Ik.w lariie is the .'(I pound box? A.~A box would be aboul !he si/,e of this stpiai'e (referring to ton (>f witness box). 129 (}. — S(|iiiiic? A. — \(i, iiol H(|iiM<'; pciliaps iilxiiit 1."> iiiclu's liijili. Tliii) \v()!il(l ciisily rcprcsciil the lioKoiii board (iiidl- catiiit; l(i|t of wiiiK'ss liox). ^i. — For the .")(> |ioiiii(ls? A. — I don't know tlu' w»'i;;lit, that is one of (lie larjjcsl Ijoxcs. ii. — Do you know how innrh a pound you jtaid for tlnit lll-liK don'l ■•(•nicinlici- now. price what liicy wore in lliosc days. <2. — Now, .Mr. .Miinsic, lliis ship was Imilt in ISfJl was she? .\. — I don'l know wlicn slic was liuilt. ti. — Von (hin't know wiicn sh<> was rt'jj;ist('rcd as built? \. —No. To -Mr. I't'tcrs: — Tln-rc is no doubt about tlic r«'j;istcr bcin;^ correct, I sni»pose, (to witness). Well, the refjister bciny cov 20 rcct. sIk' was built in iStJl. What is her size. Tile ("oinniissioner on the pari of Hie I'liiled States:- Wheii was she built, .Mr. IHckinson? Mr. Dickinson: — In ISIJl. voiir Honour. U.. (^ — She was a vessel of about '{O odd tons ineasiireinent. Wiiat was her si remotest i(Ua. the clear— leni^th? A.— 1 haven't the Q. — ^'on haven't Hie remotest idea? A. — No, I have not 30 l;!ken the ti'onble to look at the size. U- — (l{cadinjr fiom Kcfiisterl: "Lenjith from forepart of stem nndei' the bowsjiril to the head of the sleni i)ost 45 feet." How much deck would HimI <;ive yon in the clear, do you know? .\. — I do not know. (i. — .\nd what was her width? \. — 1 have forjjotten her br.adlh. (2. — (IvetHlin^i ".Main breadth ls, r» feel." Now will yon please tell the ( "(unmissioners how iniich of the 40 deck room these four canees lonk up? .\. — I cannot do that. <2- — Were four canoes all she would carry? A. — 1 presume so, or I would have carried more, or at hast would have put moi'e on board of her. ii. — .\nd these were carried on her deck were they? A. — I do not know, I presnnie so. <^- -Wei-e yon ever abii.ird of her? ,\. — (Hi, vto". 60 (2.— -Vfter she was lilted out? .\.— I whet III r I wa,s or not after the ca (.1)11 I reineniber noes \vere put into her. l^ — .\iid you can't tell wlielher you ever saw the ca.. 50 or not on tin ship, can you? .\.—\ wouldn't swear even to :lial. ii. — VoM wonhlii't swe.-ir thai tin boat \>oul(l \i \. allocs were ever on the <^ — .\i!d all yon knov.- .iboul II le canoes beini; on the boat was from il;e report of (he captain? .\.— The report of tli — well, I don't know who it was reported. F presume they wt 111 on board; they had us< d llieiii for seal <^ — Vow. did you evei' see her cabin A.— Vi .--llow laif-e was llie cabin? .V,— Oh. ! don't renu'inbrr. «^-\\ as Iheie anv jdace forward for the men to sleep? A. — I think (|uile likely: f expect there wa (i. — Von don'l Kno -F don'l know. (i.— You boiiuhl the ship withiMit lookiii},' at her, did von ; 130 1 ; I lii lO 20 30 40 50 60 wciT (|iijirtcrH for II fort'iiiMtli' iiud Q. — Didn't you Hud out wlictlu'r tlu-rt' till' iiHMi tlu'iv? A. — I jUi'NUiiii' »lu' had i-iibin, the Hiiinw as any othi-i- vi-sscl. (2. — You can't ti'll how iiiurh room that took up'.' A.— I tht're room laii't. (i. — Now, till' sjtaci' bi'low decks, the foreiiiHlle, if was id you keeji any room clear in the hold on the ton- na<;e deck for the storafje of seals, of skins'/ A. — When a vessel leaves here she is pretty well tilled up with sni)plies, salt, and they usually clear away a space to beffin sealiii};, and use up supj.lies and provisions; they have salt bins. Q.— They havi' salt bins for the stora.^ure about the poundage in the boxes in your bill'/ A. — No, I wouldn't like to. (.i. — Were they not the larj-csl size, 10 boxes at 'ti\ jMiunds eaih'/ A. — That would be about two dollars and a half a box. ti. — Were they or were they not'/ A. — (('(aiipuliii;;) -lust two (hdlars i.nd a half. a— Was that liKht then'/ A.— That would be lijibl. Q. — Fifty pounds in each'/ A. — I am not f;'^'"," •'"' weifrht, it is the price jier box. ti- — Well the pilot bi-ejid was stored on (he ship in tiie boxes, wasn't it; you didn't lake it oat of the boxes and put it in bins'/ A. — No. <^ — It was stored in the boxes and shipped in boxes, wasn't A.— Y es. 131 A.— It 20 (2.— And put (iii ilic loiuiiijjt' deck? A. — I doii'l know what ^vou term lonnsi;;)' deck. Q. — Tlu'ic is (inl.v one lu-low I lie nijihi deck? A. — In (ho hohl we call it. g.— Well, in lh«' hold? A.— Yes. under deck. i}. — Von look flcvt'ii men. didn'l von? A. — I Itflicvc llicii' was t'lt'vcn men. ii. — And she t;ol otT on In r sfalinj; vovajic some lime in Ma.\ ? A.— About the iMMli of .May, I Ihiiik. (.1 — And the scalin;; season ends when? A. — No stated '° link' for the close of (he season. (i. — Vou ex|»(e( (lieni hack about when? A. — The la((eM |)ar( of (>c(ol)er. (i.— luclndinfj the sailiiiy; (inie up and saiiiufi lime back? A.— Yes. (i. — And how lonjj does il lake to sail down? A. — From V2 (o I'll da vs. u j;o( some :Ui.l i»ounds of fresh meat, didn't you? A.— (Examinini,' voucher). Yes. Q- — And M iMiunds of o(her meats, is that rijj;ht? A. — (Kxamininj;). That's riffht. ti.— And then ycni had six barrels of salt, didn't vou? 30 40 60 Three barrels fr(nii (he "rathfinde —Yes. (i.— And what was that ]>acked in? Q. — How much in a sack? A. — I fi am not sure; I am not positive. -1 mean three tons? A. A.— Kacks. uicy '2m pound .sacks, I 50 Q.— If they were liOO ]K)iind sacks it would take (en 2(10 pound sacks (o a tc tn A.— Yes. Q.— And if you took three (ons it would take .'SO? A — ThiHv sacks. (i.— And if you took six tons it would take (10 sacks at 200 pound each? A. — Yes. (i. — Those were all pni under deck. I sujiimse? A. — Yes. (i.— Then yon tr.ok !.-> barrels of (lour, didn't von, on the "Carolena"? A fExamininj; voucher). Y'ei (i.— And you ord«'red 100 pounds more of corned meat? A. — (Kxamininu:) No, thai is corn meal. ♦i- — Vou took 100 pounds of cornmeal? A. — Kvidentlv. Q.— And 100 j»onnds of oat meal? A.— Yes, (i.— Then you took live mats of rice? How A. — About 50 pounds much in a nmt? ISO ti.— And (hen liow many beans did you take, three sacks of I)ounds each? A.— Three sacks ISO pounds all told. A. — (Examiniufr (2.— Then you (00k (w(» (ubs of bu((er? voucher) Yes. 132 ' I I lO 20 30 40 50 00 (i. — And two kc){s of s.vni|»? A. — Tlntc kens of Hynip. (2. — And (wo liinclH of siipii? A. — Yt s. i}. — And how nin< li liiirlcvV A. — :.'."( pounds. (2. — And llicn von taiTicd 1,I(M» p;jillons of walcr? A.I don't rcnH-nilit'i' how nninv naHons of wiilcr. Tlicic wcio two tiinks. i-i. — And von Inid tanks fnll of watcr'.'.V —I don't ivnu'in- ln'i' tlu" size. iy — llclow decks? A. — No, thcv wtTc on dcrk. t^. — How nian.\ pounds of shot did vou ha\<''.' A. — There wei-e about 1(1(1 pountVs of sliot. (.i. — Anrl liow ininh jiowder'/ .\. — There was abont ITiO pounds of jiowder. iy — Now. vo(! Inid some veiy tine sjuns (here. !?.")(! apiece. I (hink A. — They were jjood >:((ns. (j. — Vou liad also lono poninls of jMitatoes. had yon not*' A. — I don't know how many potatoes. (i. — Kxainine (lie \oucliei''.' A. — Ves, l(l(M( ptuinds of po- tatoes (( aiiiece, and the four ritles at «:!(•'/ A.— 1 believe their was one ride. (}.— What kind of a rille was it? A.— I never saw it; 1 sc; it invoiced. Q. — \ow. when we spi-ak of tlie *r>(t iruns, (hey were very line tiuns, weren'( they? A. -No. *ri(l does not jjet a vt ly i;(>od ifun. ().— Is it a brcoml» nun, a whale jiiin of some kind; it is called a rille, I be- 1 leve. (>.— Yon think dial \\a s the one from (he "Mai-v Ta\lor"? -I •hiiik dial \'as the one from (he ''.Marv Tavlor. Q.-Wi IS dial portable .\ .— Y( (i — And vou nefde.l :.'(|(|(l caps for tlia(? A.— I d. — Xow. vou pu( in this nowder at 70 cents, a hundred iKMinds. SsTtt? .\.— That is what Mr. Ward cliarjred us Utv it, 7(1 cents a pound, less '> ]ier cent. i}. — Mo V(Mi know anythinji about the price of powder, ex- cept in that bid? .\. — This was I'^njrlish powder. per (•nil (i_N,,w.iM :nl«lili(iii to iliis |(i«\isi<:iiliM-; liiiu- ill -Mi'V. Iliion-jli .Imic. .Iiil.v. Antriiwl. Sfiiifitilifr iiiHl OcIoImt. Mill (lioiip:lil llit'.\ mahi run slmil s(i Mill friivc llii- <.'ii|iiiiiii i**"'"! ninic in iimiiii'v. to Imv fmtlicr liioviMJons? A.-No. I \\oii!;ivc llicni some inonc.v in ciisc ave him an advamc on his watjes of aliotit f:{(M» more? A. -He had lieeii from .March in my ■employ, and he had earned a ]iortion of this pay. (i.— Hut you fiave it to liiin? .\.— I eertainly iiaid him. (i.— .Vnd he went olf with that in addition to the #ri(H»? .\.— The fntlti wuh not rharp'd to him. (^._|{,it lie had that in addition to the frilMI? A.— Y ("arne & .Munsie was il, and yon ad(h'd, ".Account of s-chooiier '('am- iena' "? .\ — I did. ti.— Now. .Ml'. .Munsie. I think you liave stated that the "I'alhtinder" or the "riii'olena" niiid il iici-ur as to Uie season of 1SSI!? A. — So far as films w;is concerned, sliot and salt. Q.— Had you no tiook like this with reference to the schooner "Pathlinder" like tiiis marked "I'arolena"? A. — No I ha e not ii. — Y WIIH l-IT. not. (j. — W't'll, now, VOII tiiiilu't ki-pt tinv liookii for ,voiirHflf in till' Nciiiinj; iMiHincHH prior to iIiIh, linil von? A. — No. (j. — Ami yon Htatcil in ,\i»nr cxiiniiiiiition tlint ,vimi tlioii^lit .von wonlil ixnin to liccp woinc ticfoiintH for voiirwlf in 'S(i? A.— "StJ, vcrt. (i.-^\Vlio ]itii(l llif l)illH of tlic "I'atlifliulcr"? A —I did. t^. — Out of ,voiir Hi'piiniti' fniid or out of Ciirnc & .MiinNi«''K? A. — Xi'iirl.v iilwiivH out of tlio stliooin'rH fiiiidH, not out of <"arm' & Muiisics. Soiiictinu's we inav liavi' paid tonipornr- ily out of rariu- i^ MiinNicV, Itnt it would ho paid batk. ii. — Now, yon Htati'd in your rxainination ycKtcrday tliiit wlicn tlio "l'atli(id«'r" t,MV(' tin' "('aroh-na" anytliiiiK. yon cluirp'd it bark to tin- "Carolf-na"? .\. — Wi'li, I don't nican to Hay tliat wo would enter it in all onr acconntH, but we dedint HO iiincli from lier for that aeeonnt, as the voiielierH winild hIiow. (i. — Now, wliere yon had hilln rendered, Mr. Miinnie, to <'ariie & MniiHie, (»r to .MiiiiHie, without the charp' to the "<"ar- (deiia" on it, IiidianR on till' way up? A. — She ini^ilit liavi' diiiit' a little, I wouldn't Hiiy wlitilii r sill' did or not. ii. — W'liiil did nIii' liavi' on lioard to trade with Indians? A. — She really did not have anything «'Xeept the supplies. ii. — Were I hey put on hoard of her to trade? A. — Xo, thvy 20 were not. ii. — What were they put on board of her for? A. — To po down and procure the crew of Indians, come hack here to tit out for Itehriii;; Sea, supplies enough, provisions f<' eouldn't pet them on her way to Uehrinp Sea? A. ' " ««>• iwu and rs if he f)0 — ^V•' didn't choose to take the chances, take the risk of down and luakinf; a failure, so that she went di come b.ick, .ind I had arrauffed with white liiinti could not secure a crew of Indians. Q.— Now. Mr. :\funsie. she had can},'ht up to the time she sei/.ed on the 1st of August, r.,s7, and v catch the balance, 'J.'JOO would be the averajje; of as you understand. She niifilit liave }iot more. oil exjiected to or 2,S00, did you, tliere?A.— O, 2:{(1» course this is on the a|>proximat< mifrht not have jjot that manv, she T 136 M ; I 10 20 30 40 5^^ 60 i-i. — iSiil Ihc "I'iilliliiMli r" liiid iiiiidf licr ciilcli bcfoii' llu' ■Jiid of August, tiiHln) she? A.— Itfforc Ilit- (ill of Aiij;usl. ])licalioii to the ship carpenter for a ti};nre on a To t(Ui vessel. He Udd nie liiat he would furnish iiie with a new vessel, iiicludiiif; everytiiin;; but the sealing out- lit, for :|1IMIII0. Q. — ^^'lletl)er in your valuation of the '•( 'arolena" you have not taken into cdiisideralion anytiiin;i; for wear and tear? .\. — The vessel just before 1 boiiulit hei', it appars. iiad biM'ii thoroughly overhauled — new rii^iiinj;. new spars and new- sails, in 1SS4, and a ^reat deal of new work done to her hidd. That was before she came into my jiosi-ession. (2. — liiit you put in about (!| days for repairinji I he whole three sails, didn't yon. in .May. iSSli? .\. — Woii'l you kindly let me see (Witness examines billi. Tiiat is a bill rendered by .Mr. Sears for repairs to sails, .\ ship will u. ISSII. stale wliether they arc in llie same haiidwritinj^' iis the receipts for the niorlo ycm kiKtw where soiicher No. :iS of this exhibit 10 came frcuii? .\. — I do not. no. <^— Th.Mt is Mr, Hechlel's bill isn't il? .\.— Yes i}. — Do yon see il on the same jiapir as is on ihe bac ks of all Ihe vouchers? .\. — I d(m"l say il is Ihe saute paper. (i, — Is Ihat the haiidwrilinj; of licchlel, do ymi know? .\. • — I do not know. I couldn't sa\', Q, — hid yon evei' coircspoiid with him? .\. - Xevt r. ^1 I lO 20 40 137 <2.— Kvrr s,r liiin wrili-? A- I woiihlii"! siiv lluit I had III)!. (i. -WliK jiiit him Id nivc 1li;il vourlicr. covmii},' (lie boiiid- iii;,' of lilt- r<'siiiiic I did m.vsi'lf. Me wiihl <■( i-taiiilv iircsfiit Ids hill. (2.— Was ii i»,i'Sfnt('iMii- voucher? A.— iKxainininj;). ^'cs. sir. (J. — Now ii'i's sec it? .\. — Colonial llotid. (}._li;',4.7,-,. That was written tlicrc in ISSti, was il? A. — Yes. sir. (2. — Uin;lii in tlicrciin tiiat tiisl \t\ii< — on llic second itayc — that was wiilleii there in ISSd. was il? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — And the eiitiie:' lielow il, written in ll^Sd? A. — Yes, lie exandnatien hy .Mr. I'cters. (2._.Mr. Miinsie, you have lieen asked (juestions with re- yard to the vouchers you put in. and parlicnlarly you have been asked as to (he h.ickiii};' of these vouclieis, as a matter of fact, who ni.ide up fhtse l)ooks? A. — .My liookeejier. (^ — lie simjdy jiut a hacking to each voucher, anether. AVhen I found the vessel was seized I took a little extra care in keejiinji them, after the claim was made they were put away, and some of them jjot mislaid or never i-etiirned fiom Ottawa, 1 don't know which. Q. — As a matter of lact, whetlur it was by accid<'nl or de- sign yoti put these vouchers on a little file, and wlien llu' trouble came they were there? A. — A'es. Q. — Have you made a search to the best of your ability to fi.id whether that niortjtatje was in existence or where it is? A. — I have looked. Q. — And you simitly say you have have not found it. Q. — Y'ou were asked by Mr. Dickinson wliether 'he cash or notes that wei'e paid for the vessel "(' ihe first instan<(: were paid by Came & .Munsie them. Have you had time to ascertain tliat? not had tinu', but I can ascertain that afttrwards. I think I may say positively that tliey were not. it was my own busi- IU>S8. Q. — Will you look and see? A. — I will. Q. — Now with rcfiard to your not tindin}; tliat nutrt;"a};e for .ffifiT, as a matter of fict the morlp:a. The romnnssioner on the |)arl of the I'nitcd States: was she built of? AYifness: — I believe of Oreiron jtine or fir as we call it here. not found it. A.— I any j>art of arolena" in or thron;;h A.— I have IS concern year since what cai'e -What Q. — Where was she built? \. — I don't know. I have heaid she was built in the State of \\ ashiufrton. I did not take tlie trouble to look up the record myself.but I understood she was built fiu're, brou;;:hf hei'e and the duly jiaid on her and pu< under the Mri'i«h flaj;. Kxamiimtion bv Mr. Feters continued. «39 A.— 1 20 30 60 Q. — You stated in n-ply to Mr. J)ickinson that ,vou put in a • laiiu in lSS(t, and tliere was some qui-stion as to wiietluT ,vou clainu'd tlic value of the vessel at that time or not. At tliat time did .vou expect you were f,'"'»K to lose the vessel? A. — I did not, I felt fully confident it was such an absurd seiz- ure that the Kritish boats. Q. — And you supjdy them with the necessary ammunition for that puipose? ,\. — Yes. (J. — Is there iinytiiins('? A. — It is not an exorbitant (piantity at all. ii — You have made a jfeneral statement fli.it all the en- tries l>elow a certain entry, with the excejjtion of one, were also entered in ISSO, and you stated that was correct? A. — That was correct. Q. — They were entered when they were j)aid? A. — \'es. Re cross cxaminaticm by Mr. I>ickins(ui. Q. — You say, Mr. Munsie, that you refused to pav Mr. ("lark's bill at Sitka? A.— Yes, at' the tinu-. Q. — \Vere thei'e reasons? A. — I considered it excessive. I did not want the case to f;o into the courts of the I'nited States, as 1 preferred to let our (Jovemment handle it. Q- — ■\nd you finally j)aid it l>ecause he seized the skins? -\. — TIk re was a man came to see me afterwards, who repre- sented himself as bein•{ 1 ' ' TT •■ lO 20 30 40 so 60 140 Mr. I'clcrs: — I wisli (o nmk*' the sliilt'inciil l(» (lie ("oiiniiis sion tliiit with !(}>jii-d to tlial record of llic title of this Hhip. iilthou<;h I have for tlie sake of convenience jfiM'n it to my h'arned fi-iend, and also !o the Coianiissioners, I wish to l>e nnderstood as slatina thai I do not pnt it in «'vidence. W«> rely on the document which 1 foiineily tendered in evidence, and I simply tench'red thai as a matter of convenience. Mr. Dickinson: — I nndecstood it was put in to show the British rejiistry. Mr. I'eters: — I put in to sh(»w the Itiitish re};istry the docn ment which the Kevemie t'ultei' "Corwin" took from oni' ves- sel, and at that I stotiped. I jnit in others foi' a certain pur- pose in order to explain certain aitparent inconsistencies in these bills of saie which have been produced lu re. The <'onimissioner on the part of the rnited States: — You put in the license? Mr. Peters: — I I'efer now to the book whicli I have handed in. The Commissioner on the part of the Tnitcil Stales: — I iisked for the registry and you passed that book up as a nnit- ter of convenient'. Mr. I'et(>rs: — 1 wanted to be understood as that. The ('(uumissioner on the i»art of the Inited States: — Is not that an exact duplicate? Mr. Peters: — So, because Hie refrislry found on the shi]> is as a matter of fact of a later date than that. The Commissioner on the jiart of the I'niled States: — I wanted the registry found on the ship. John (iraham Cox was called as a wiln<-ss on the |>art of Her Majesty, and was duly sworn. l>ir(addles? A. — Well, the lars lost alxnit twelve and a half cents per foot. iin(l lip to ISir!. Q. — \\'iis llicrc anv dilTcrcncc in the price of the same jjnn in ISSd or ISST' A. — The jiric*- would rantre acordinj? to tlic jriiKh' of the fjiiii. That is what we term an ^Hii prade fjun. <1(;{ as iwing. «J.— .Viid it cost how iiiiich? .\.— About #751). (,>.— When did you buy the ".\iinie K. Taint"? A.— We bought llial vessel in two uv three years; we (Uilv pun'hased her. just a piece at a lime. .1 *^~""'yj.'!";'' •"'' •'"'" '•"•'■ '■"•■ '"''•• A.-She cost us at tlie rale ot #!>.4(l(t. and we did not imiiort her oiirsi Ives (2.— Was she new? A.— She was abinit eight vears of age. 60 <^ — What was her tonnage? .\. — S2 I t hey nianv ' "' "■"" "" ■ ""iiinim". .1. — ,^j ions. Q.— How long are these schooners expected to last if are kejit in g.— How old is the oldest one thai v(mi kn«»w now'' \ — 1 think the oldest is tl I'^avourite." and she is thirlv'odd years of age. ut t(» him witli rejtard to a declara- tion made l).v him in tlie year IHSCi liefore Mr. Dralvc. That dedanition at tlie time I did not liave in my hands, the doc- nment in wliich it is contained Iteini; in tlie hands of tlie jjiinter. 1 would like to }jive tlie Court the r(>ference where that do<>t into the case. It was sent, as a matter ot fact — I am refeiriny; to the wiine docii nient, \ dluiiie Ci — to the Minister of Maiiiie and Fisheries senu- time about its date, and afterwards transmit led t . Kuf^land. And in order tiiat the ('(imm'ssioncrs may have the niattei- before lliem I ]i!(ipose to read that document. The ('(Miimissioni'r on the jiart of the l'iiit(d State**. — I iu'esinn<> it is not necessary for the steiiof;raplier to lake down aiiythinji more than a reference to it? Mr. IVters: record. -Not unless my learned friend wanli it in the Declaration read. Jlr. I'eiers: — That was the declaration I understand lo be referred to in the cross-examinalioii. Thai declaration was taken (HI the UOIh (tctobcr, ISStl, before M. T. \V. Drake, irher was a (pieslion put to .Mr. .Miinsie yesterday uiion wliich he wislies, with the <'onsent of the ('(mimissioners, to make an explanation. Tiuit is with rejtard lo the (juestion that was ]nil to him as to whether all those entries in this little book he produces had a!l.7."), making ^4."i!t.75 drawn to joint account. It was joint acco lint d rawii to selves The ('ommissioiier on (he jiart of Her Majesty: — Is that the only bank account your linn had? A. — The only bank a( connl. .Mr. Tedrs: — 1 should like to ask this witness — You state you had means ont,.n iniK-li ciirlitT. 1 inc^siiiiu' il was wii,v biuk in 1S7S, (ir MHiictliiiif; like lliiil. (I. — l>o ,voii ('Iu'<|iic vdiii- niiincv out of tlu' Siiviiifrs ISank? A. — \<). I do not i»a.v anv nionry onl in that wa.v. Q. — How )lo yon p't llic money out? A. — I'.y clu'iinc wlicn I draw it ont. (i. — And yon liavc a l>ank liook to show wliat yon deposit? A. — I piesnine I have; I don'l know. (i. — l>o yon keej» tlie liank account yet? A. — No. (2.— Wlien did yon (lose it? .\. — ^Theie may be a very snnill amount; sntlicient to kee]) it open. [ am not sure tli(>i'u is. H. — How mncli did yon ever keep tliere? A. — 1 wouldn't answer tliat. (i. — V»>n did not understand wlien I asked yon if yon kepi a l)ank account anywliere liiat lliat coveied savinjis liank? A.— It did not occur to me tlial I had one. Q. — Yo)i liad forjjoden tl\e fact tliat you had any. Do yon rememl»er wJiether at any time you had as nincli as ^r),()(M) there? A.— I may. Q. — Would yon swear that yon had as much as fKMHtO? A. — I don't think 1 had as nsnch as that. Q — Would you swear that yon had not as mnch as that? A. — I don't think the (Jovcinmeiit allow that mnch. Q. — Yon can't tell within some tlK)nsands how mnch yon kept there? A. — 1 don't know now. it is so loii}; ajj^o, I don't remember. Q. — As to this memoiandnm book, did yon look at the voucher and find that it was dated in .May, ISS7, after bein<; on the stand? A. — I did not. Q. — It was not told yoti, was it? .\. — Xo, it was not. {}. — These entries I think you told me yesterday were en- tered when the voucher was presented? A. — About that time. (i. — And this mijiht have been entered in lSS(i? A — It mi};:ht. Q. — Hut at the time you made that entiy J. I). Warren — you may have made it in ISSS? .\.— I niif,'ht have. Q. — The entry was made over the leaf schooner "Mary Taylor." 2:5. .'>r». Thai had bt<'n there some lime since llSSIJ, had it not — ri^fht on the next jiafie? .\. — I don'l remember just how that entry came to Ite made. t^. — The enliy "schooner '.Mary Taylor.' 12:{. ;")(»," was it there or was it not when you made Ihe entry .1 1). Warren at tlu> foot of Ihe second paj;e? A. — I fancy it is there. (i.— -Vnd the enliy "Hall & (ioeiiel" was "tliere? .\.— Yes. (i. — .\nd Ihe olhei' entries on the third paj^e are all there? .\.— To Ihe best of my knowledfxe. II a]ipears tliere is one blank remainin;;- there; I fancy thai that was Ihe last jiau'e. (J.— l>o you remember of faiKyiiiir that? .\. — I don't re- inembei' fancying l.liar. ii — The item just above tiiat, "I'allilinder" 4."), was made in ISSC? A.— I think so. ii — I>id il ever occur to you. when yon don't remember iiltout it. that 11 mi;;lit liav(> been i»ossible when you made the other entry in ISSd, to have discovered that there was a blank at the foot of ihat jiat>c? .\.— T mijjlil have noticed it. Mr. Dickinson: — That bo;e tninsaction. The i>apers on their face reipiin' sart of the United Htates:— If yon open u]» llie <|uesliou here now are vou not barred (m rebuttal? 10 ■vl I! ^lii 30 1 46 Mr. .■,'t<'iN:— Tilt' (iiK'slion iiiisc«l in llic i»h'ii(liiij{H is one of Aiiici'ican ntitioiiiility tlint is all. Till' ('(imiiiisHioncr on tin- pint of Ihc Tnitt'd Stiih'H:— Don't voii make ont a pi-inia fa; into anythinf; except this par- ticular mater which to us appears to need some ex|»IanatJon. Mr. Munsie siivs that he bought that vessel at a valuation of *.%800. ZO The Commissioner on the part of tlu' I'nited States: — Does this witness know anything alwut what she cost? Mr. I'eters: — He knows the exact transaction, and the money he himself advanced. The Conimissioner on the jmrt of the Tnited States: — Does that enable him to show wluit she cost? Mr. Peters: — It corroborates Mr. Munsie, and shows that his statement is correct, that is all. To witness: — You had this transacticm with Mr. Munsie? A. — Yes. sir. (}. — Did you advance him some money? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What time did you make the tlist advance? \. — Time? Q. — In the year? The Commissioner on the part of llu' I'nited Slatt's: — Let me ask you Mr. Peters. I am doing this on my own account without consulting my associate. What (inference does it make liow much money he advanced unless he knows what the ve.^sel cost, unless you intend to meet 'lie entire ques tirs: — I will content myself with jmtting only one ipiestion aliout it. There was a mortgage given for )|!f!(i7. as Your Honour i'cmeml>ers in February, ISS'). I simply wanted to ask this witness.as a matter of fact whether that was the amount advanced, or whether it was a less sum Than 'that, simply for the purpose of corroborating Mr. Munsie's state iiient as to the nature of the transaction. They have already 60 ■''• <'ross-examining Mr. Munsie tried to make it ajijiear that the statement made by Mr. Munsie is an improbable one, that the papers show that his statement at all events is the subject of some doubt. The Comniissioiier on the part of the I'nitt'd States: — I have 110 further siiggesdons to make. I uu'rely want on my own behalf to throw out this caution. To witness: — You took a mortgage from Mr. Munsie, as a ft 40 ai<>? lO 20 30 •JO 50 60 •47 iniiltci- uf riirl, ill (lie iiMiiitli <)l' I'Vliiiiiir.v, isx'i, ami Hi*- nil I of tliiil iiiorlKiip' wiiHflitiT. Will voii lie kind i'IkiiikIi to Icll iiii' wliiit is llic iutiial iiiiioiiiil vuu tlii-ii atlvaiKcd? A.— ?J(K(. {.i. — No iiioft'? A. — No iiioif. ii. — Now tinrc in anotlicr mailer ;Mr. lU refer liv my leai'iieil frientl. There is a here with re^aril lo .Mr. <><{ilvi Iiefore Ihis (')iui't in tliis case. vie A — Ves, sir. I \va:il to ask yon alMinl lo Ihe cross e.xamiiialion mailer I want e.vplaineil wlios<' per^'onal claim is now Dill yuu know t'aplain O^H A.— Well, I lliink A. - live. A.- A.- -Y(s. A.— -Yes, -Ves. A.— 1 1 was Tlu Q. — How lonj; had you known him? ever since I came to the country. Q.-Was he in Uw habit of hoarding at your place? Ves, sir he always made my jilace his home. Q. —Now Mr. Uechtel, where did this man Ogilvie Victoria? A.— Ves, sir, at Victoria. Q. — Von had known him for a number of years? .\. sir. Q. — Had ho any relations lieie that you know of? :U)i that I know "of. Q. — He went away, I believe, in IS8G and never afterwards returned? A. — Y«'s, sir. il. — IMd the inal«' Hiake come from Victoria? sir. ii. — f'laiins were put in, I believe for Mr. IMake' sir. Q.— Who i)ut tlu" claim in for Mr. Ogilvie? throuf.-;)! me that the claim was put in. Q. — For any one else but Ogilvie? A. — No, sir. Q. — I refer to page 01 of volume .T (American reprint), claim is put in in this way: — "Victoria, Itritish Columbia. I James Oyilvie, master of the schooner "('arolena," claim as compensation for my a nest and impristmmeut on board the I'nited States steamship 'Corwin,' and in jail at Sitka, the sum of f5,000. Dated the llMli day of October, 1SS(!. James Ofjilvie, by his attorney, A J. IJechtel." As a matter of fact, Ojiilvie was then dead, as it now ajtpears? A. — Yes, Q. — Did you know aiiytiiiu{j about that then? A. — Yes, sir. Q — And you put this in. witnessed by ilr. Drake? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Did Of^ilvie have any other friends here besides you? A. — There was no doubt he had a good many friends, noth- ing more than .just acquaintances. (2. — As a mailer of tact, did you put this claim in for vonr- self? A.— No, I did not. Q— Did .vou intend to get the benefit of it? A.— In Ihis way. There was a small amount he was indebted lo me. (i. — He owed you a small amount for what? A.— II was for board. Q. — About how much? A. — Well, I would not be positive. Q.— Would it be over |ilUO? A.— I don't think it would, although it might be. (■l- — And you put this claim in on account of your having known Ogilvie i'or such a time? A, — Y\'s, sir Q. — Did .vou, as a matter of fact, haiipen to see the "Caro- lena" before she went out in 18SG? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— How was she loaded? A.- I'retty well loaded. Q. — W'ere you on board of lier? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You say you knew the captain? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— And you were on board of her before she sailed? A. — Yes, sir Q. — As a matter of fact, you do not intend to give any statement of wlial was on board of her? A.— No, 1 couldn't II as a 1 » T'F "•^'^ I4.S -H* i 1 10 20 30 40 50 60 ('i-oHMt'XtiiniiDilioii b,v Ml'. Difkiiisoii. (^._V„ii ilid not «'ii(ti' llic sciiliii); ImsincsM iiiilil IS!»0? A.— I lliink i( wiih In 1S!M» 1 lion^lit ti vchwI in Sim KnuH In- to. (i.— Vou haO no inicivHt in the m-nlin}; biiHinoHs iM-foic? A.— \(». h\v. Q._|)i,l yon cnttT lilt' scaling l)iisin('HH in ISlMt? and enter tlie ownerHliip of Mealing ve8Hel8? A. — I wouldn't l»e i«iHi- live wlietlier it waH in IM'm or 1S!H, lint I l)onj?lit llie Cit.v of San l>ie>;o In San Franciseo; in 1S!M» or 1S!H. Q — Was it tlie Hanie ,vear jou beeanie a llritisli Hubjeet? A. — Xo, sir. Q. — Wlien did .von become a llritiHli Hnbjeet? A. — Tlie •JlHt ef April, ISOl', to the best of my knowledge. Q. — Did .von have an.v waling biiHineHH — own an.v Healers j»ri'jr to that time? A.— Nothinj,' bnt the Cit.v of San l>h'j,'o. Q. — That was an Amerieun ship? A. — Yen, nir. Q. — With an .\merican register? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— Now, what was the iffKiT for? A —What fUiT? (i.— The ditVerenee between *5(l(l and *»!((?? A.— Th:it was intended to cover the interest. (J. — For how hing? A. — W<'ll, there was no specitled time. Q.— How did .vou pet jnst JflfiT? A.— ^Vell, reall.v, I would not be (tositive it was flOT. I knew it was over If 100. Q. — If it was fl(!7. how did von get jnst that amonnt? A.— Well, I couldn't say. ii. — How much did you advance on the (fl.tlOO mortgage? A.— Ifnoo more. Q.— Made ll.OOtt altogether? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— And did .von get the interest paid, the f 1(>7? A.— The interest on the $r>00 loan w.is ])aid. (i.— Was it the ditt'erence between the :fr>(IO t'.nd tl > UKirt- gage? Did .von get that amonnt of interest? A. —I cuii' Ii.'t sa.v. Q. — What was done with the surplus between i^.'j'tO, tlie iMiioiint tliat you actually ao vou know how manv shares that was on? A. — The ^l.Otxl? *.}. — Yes. A. — That was — I couldn't be positive, but I be- lieve :V2 shares. Q. — -lust half the interest? A. — Yes, sir; 32 shares. Q. — And the vhole title then stood in the name of Munsie? -V. — I couldn't say as to that. i}. — ^'ou could not say; ./iit I suppose you knew at the time you took that mortgage on the boat where the title was? A. — The title for the vessel? ti.Ycs. A.— I did not. Q. — Do you mean to say that you took a mortgage on the boat without knowing where the title was? A. — Well, I was Milvist d to tak«' a mortgage fcu' m.v mimey. i}. — And you did not know anything about the title your- self? A. — I n(ver bad anything to do with the vessels and I (lid not kn(sw anything about thnii. (i.— Then you did not know that Munsie held thi' title? A. — I knrw ly his leTng nu'. (,». — At the time you made up this claim for Ogilvie, was it nuide betore Ml-. Drake? A. — I believe it was. 149 10 20 3° 4° ii. — AimI wlHTt'iiliuiilN dit1l<-<>. (/.— WiiH Mr. .Mnnnic tlicrc? A.— N<». nir. ii. — I'd ,von Iwiow iinytliin^ tilMint .MunHii- niiiliin^ ii cliiini Willi h went witli if.' A.— .No. sir. (i. — How difl voii t'oin*- to j{o to .Mr. lM'iil\<''H onicc? .\. — \\'i*ii, I wtiH ti*lviH<-r<' imtliii}; in oliiiniH; otiii'i- riipliiiiiH tluit wcro tiit-ront tin- tini*- in Hitl{ii. lvH It WIIH II ^ood many yi-nrn Q. — WaH tiiis l)ill I now hIiow yon tai{i ii from your booliw? A. — I iiavt' O^iiivic's aiM'onnt. (i. — Did yon iiiivc an aoiMint of liiiH vtHHid I now hIiow .\. — I wouldn't iiavc. It mi<;lil Im> on tlio liotol Ik)oI};iivic's liili at alioiil til lanii- da v. .'ind not tlii>i liiiiH |ia|i*'i's of adniinisti'iitioii. (i. — Were yon made Adniinistiator for Onilvic (2.— I ixiiow it liy till- A.— YoH, sir. ii. — In liic Court iicrc A.— \ o, sir. ii. — How tiu'ii arc yon iiiado Adniinisirittor for ()};ilvi(? .\. — It was tiiroii^ii Hio <'oiiits, I suppose, at Sitlvti, tiiat is I tiiiniv tlic jtapcrs were sent tliere to lie completed. Tlie way tiiey were made out I, of conrsc. i<."«! and liad l)ecn for some years? ii. — Did yon keep a i»i.e;};cry' .\. — 1 es, sir -I did at tliat lime. ii. — Wlicrealtonts was it? A. — Abont a mile and a lialf from (lie Post Oltice. ii. — Was it yours? A. — It belonged to my Inotlicr and iiivsclf. iO sir. ii. — Von were in iiarrncrsliip were yon? A. — Yes. sir. ii. — Kver in paitncrsliip wilii ("ariic & .Mnnsic? A. — \o. (i.- Have an interest in tiiat cojir«'rn? A. — No. sir. Q. — In your pif-^icry yon boiifjiit and sold a muni deal', A.— Yes. ii. — And in yonr iiotel" hams; wc cured meat as well. A. — Considerable bacon and ii- — ^'on paid a muu] deal of money out in yonr iiiftfjery msiiK'ssv -Oil, well, moic or 1 ess. 6o ii. — And yon kept yonr otlice wliiie yon carried on tiie bnsi ness at tlie hotel. A. — .\t the hot«'l, yes sir. Q. — Pretty careful abont Riviiifj: receipts wore y(m? A.— W a n> (I'ipr? A. — Not alwiiys. (i.— IHd you ki'('i» any blank n'ct'ipts? 1 did for icnis. Q. — And were you juvtry oaroful about nuniborintic them so you could si'o where youi blanks went? A. — Ves, 8lr, souK'times. Q. — And wliat rents tlid you receive in 188(5? A. — I couldn't say. (i.- Hid you have any stores or buildings from which you received rents? A. — I had some cottages. Q. — And rents payable monthly? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you keej) a set of blanks foi- each house or cot- tage, or use blank re(eii»ts? .\. — Well, there would be on« blank; of course a book would cover all. Q. — You only kept one set of blanks at a time? A. — Just for house lents. Q. — Did you keej) a set of blanks for anything else? A. — I might have had. ves. Q.— Did you? A.— Yes, I believe I had. Q.— What did you use those for? A.— That would be the r(>ceij)tH tor anything outside of rents for cottages. H. — Did you receive anything outside excejtt for rents of set of blank recei;>ts for money loaned and interest on it, I sujtposc'? A. — Yes, for money loaned would be dilTerent from the rent receipts. Q — Hut you kept one for rent receipts and another f(»r ^ loan receipts? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Payments of interest and sums paid back and so on? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — I show vou receipts attached to Exhibit No. 0. 1 want to see if they are in your handwriting? .\. — (Exam- ining! Yes. sir. that is niv handwriting. Q — I me.MU the body of the receijds; see if they are all ill your haiidwiiliiig'' A. — (Examining) Yes. sir. Q. — I want you to hvok (hem through and see if they are in your liand writing. (Witness examines receijtis.) Q- — Vou can tell your handwriting ]tretty ()uickly cannot .\ou? .\. -It iniglit be cdiiiiteiCcited. Yos. sir, they are all in my liJiudwiilini!'. Q. — Now, will you look at them again and see if they are 111! given at (he times they bear dale? .\.— Every six iiKUilhs. Q — Tliey were given e\erv six mondis? .\. — Yes, sir, it might vary a li(ll(>. 40 60 10 20 30 40 io 60 IS' (i.— Are those original receii»ts, all of them? A.— I Hhould think 80. il — WVre yon ever called upon to j;ive diiidieates? A. .\,_I bi'liev'e air. Mtinsie at one time asked me to jjive a re- ceipt, thai he had lost one or two. mislaid them or something; 1 wonld not say what one« they were. il — Vou cannot distinfjuish them now? A. — No, I could not. Q.— Did yon keep a stub to these receipts? A.— There was a sitnb. but where it is I (ouldn't say, it is so lonji now; it is almost ten years Q. — He came and asked you for those duplicate nH-eipts, didn't he, since he befjan to make njt his claims here? A. — He has never said anytliint? to me about those. (2. — About jjivin^ duplicate !-eceij»ts. when he had lost some? A. — Oh. this was a lonji while alicate receipts for? A.— Well, to rei)lace; that is, one or two had been lost. I would not be positive whethei' it was one or two; I believe, tliouu;!), it was two. <2. — He wanted tliem to make up his claims, didn't he? A.— Weli. he didn't say. Q. — Now, have you tak(u a look for that stub-book? A, — No, I have not. ii. — Will you? A. — I will, yes, sir. I think I ran very likely find it. Q. — Was that a stub book that was used nj»; all the r('ceii)ts taken out? .\. — I couldn't say; I am not positive. Q. — Did you {^et a new stub book before one was us( d u|>i A. — No. noti Of that kind; only foi' rents. I have now a num- ber of rent receipt sttibs that I have used of late years — the last year or two. > to your stul» books as you went throui;h? A. — It would be more likely. I wouldn't say to that, at any rate. So far as the re(eij)ts are cmicerned I fienerally do. Q.— \V»'ll, let us see that stub-book if you can find it? A. -—I will look for it. 00 for interest and put no anKHint in th "■'000 mortf-afic intcrst? A.— Well, this was just a loan payable at. any time. lie said 1 back at most anv time le w(»iild like to jtay me Q.— The inot)? .\.— Y.'s. sir. (i-In which #li!7 is put in for interest ! I'es, to cover interest, it was his e wii ])ro])ositioii. ok8? A. — It would be i)robal)ly altoRelher where we kept an account of such transactions as that. Q.— ^\■|lere is that? A.— The Lord only knows. (}.— Did you keei> a little book with such transactions as this, containinf; dealiuj^s i-elative to y<»ur i)i};p«'i"y so that you conid tell what you paid out? A. — I wouldn't know where it was at this time. (i. — :n'ow did you make that up within the last two months? A. — Xo, sir. ii. — You swear, do you, that you made it up in lS,S(i? A. — Yes, it was made up the day it is dated. (2.— Did you deliver the hams and bacon? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Dn the ship? A. — 1 couldn't say that. Likely tlioy were sent aboard. (i. — That is just what friend Munsie says; he didn't go aboard, and don't know. A. — I mifjlit have sent them on boaid from the hotel, or I minht have sent them to Carne & .Munsie's. (i. — Did tluy buy bacon and so on from you from your pig- fxwy'! A. — Yes. for the vt s.sel. (i. — Did they buy from you for their store? A. — I believ*? they did. (i. — Now can yoti tell whether this was delivered to the "Carolena" or delivered to Tarne & Munsie? A. — 1 cannot. iy — When you went on the ship did you go below? A. — \o, I did not. il. — Didn't };o below? A. — I believe I did go in the cabin. i-i. — Didn't go below on to the tonnage deck — lu'low decks to see wliat tliey had aboard? A. — Xot in the hold, where they kejtt their sup])lies. (i. — What did vou go there for? To sav goodbve to (japtain Ogilvie? A.— Yes. (i. — Kver been on her before? A. — Oh. yes; I had been captain; that is all. (■i- — You knew the shijt ju-ctty well abo'e and below? A. — I knew the ship was loaded; appeaivd to be very full when she left. Q. — Did you look down in tlu' hold? \. — I co\ild see the Iiatches ofl"; could see that slie was well loaded. John .1. Kobinson was - builder. iy — Ilev, long have yo\i bei'u In Victoria? A. — Ever since about IS77. (i. — Have you been working at vour trade dui-ing that time? A.— All the time. (i.— Did you know the "Carolena?" A.— 1 did. (}.— In the year ISSJ did you have anvlhing to do with the ••«"andena'.'" A.— I did. a— What? A.— Lengthening her. i}. — Ilow much did you h ngthen her? A. — .\ few feet; about eight eet. (2.— Did that increase her capacity in any other way? A. — W'cU, lengthened her amidshijjs. Q.— WhatelTect did that have im the breadth of the vessel* .\. — I suppose it would make her twelve inches wider. 'SI m III !}';.' 154 i 4 i* The Coni'visHloncr on tlu- i»art of the United Slates: — Wlien WMH this? A.— In 1SS4. Mr. Hedwell: — Is thai youv signature (showinj; witness pa- per)? A. — Tliat loolis very lik«' it. I slionld say it was. Q. — What is tliat doeunient, Mr. Kobinson? A. — That i.s a receipt for paynier'.t of earpenter worl;. Q. — Wliat is the anionnt yon reeeived for tlie work yon did? A.— «!!»(»(». lO (i.— Wliat is the date of that meipt? A.— April Utli. 1S84. Q. — Was that abont tlie time tlnit yon finislied yonr work? A. — As near as I can remember Tlie (\)mnii8sioner on the i»art of the I'nited States: — Had not that better }jo into the case? Mr. Rodwell: — I don't think it is necessary. I simply show it to the witness to refresh his memory. 20 The C(mimissioner on the part of the United States: — Yon don't care for it, Jlr. Dickinson? Mr. Dickinson; — No, yonr llononr. Q. — Do yon know whether anything else was done to the •'Carolena" at that time? A. — Well, I presujne they }iave luM* a new ri^jpnfj and a new onttit I supiK»se; I can't swear to that. Q. — Can yon swear as to any other work that was done besides the lengthening that yon did? A. — I presume they had new rifffiiiifi, there were new sj)ai's there. Q. — In what condition was the "Carolena" when this work was done? A. — Oh, jn-etty fiood. (2.— What kind of a schooner was she? \. — Oh. a nice h:indy little vesrsel. Q. — Of what rtood was shi' btiilt? A. — I'ine, as far as I can find out. Q. — The Commissioner on the part of IFer Majesty: — How much was she lenjithened? A. — A tiifle over eight feet. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Was that before this register was taken? Mr. Bodwell:— That was in 1SS4. The (Commissioner on the j)art of the T'nited States: — What is the date of that register? Mr. Hodwell: — The register is before that date. The (.'ommissioner on the part of the United States: — 50 Don't she retjuire a new registi'r after being lengthened? 30 40 Go Mr. Hodwell: — As a lualti-r of fact everything that was necessary to be done by the owners for the purpose of ob- taining a new icgister, was done. She was re-measured, and the certificates are in the coliecloi-'s oftice now, but for some rejison or oilier there does not appear to be a new cer- tificate issued. The Ccmimissioner on the pait of the T'nited States: — (^an- n(»t we have the benefit of the new survey here before we get through? Mr. Hodwell:— Yes. we can get those original (locunients. thi' iiieiisurenieiit <-eililicate, and the snrveyoi's ccrtilicate if the Commissioners would like to see them. They are in the ccdleclor's o'lli'e now in N'ictoria. (i. — .\t whose recjuest did you d<» this woik? .\. — The captain's 155 mi lO 20 40 60 Q._Iu till' course of your business here have you atMpnred ii kii()wledf,'e of the value of vessels? A.— No, I could not Hav thai I have, I have },'eneral ideaw all round. Q._Have yo'i any opinion as to the value of the "Cam lena" at that" time?' A.— I should think she was worth be- tween ?4,()00 and f5,0(l(). The Comnussioner on the part of the United Rtateg:— The sini])le question is whether you have an opinion or not. Q. — riave you an opinion as to her value? A. — Ves. Q.— What is tliat opinion as to her value in 1884 and 1,^85? A.— Well, about p,(MK). Q. — Have you an opinion as to the cost of building ves- sels per ton in 'v'ictoria at that time and prior to that time? A. — Oh, I sui»it()se all the way from ^150 up. builders' meas- urement. ii. — Have ycu any idea as to the number of men that could be ca tried on a cruise on this ship the "Carolena?" A. — Do you mean hunters? il. — Yes, for a sealinjj voyajje? A — Oh, I should say they could take 1;.' or It. ' (i.--l)o you know anything about the way in »vhich those sealinj; schooners are usually loaded when they start out for a a sealin}!; voyage? A. — Well, no; they generally go out pret- ty deep. (i.— Where do they put their stuff? A.— Stow it below, I sujtpose. Q. — I mean to say, did yon ever s; e stuff in the cabin stowed away? A. — Yes, and in every hole and corner. (i. — Do you know anything about the size of the cabin of the "Carolena?" A. — No. I did not do any of the joiner work, sir. on her. Q. — Was the position of the cabin changed after the work you did? A. — Xo. 1 don't know that it was. Made if lit- tle longer, of cour.se, by lengthening hei'. ii. — Do you know what the "Oarolena" was used for before this work was don*'? A. — 1 don't know whether she was scaling before or not. Q. — Well, what was Captain Urquhart's occupation? A. — 1 always knew him as a master mariner and pilot. ii. — Do you know anything about the "Carolena" with ref- I'l'cnce I0 that? A. — She use d to belong to the pilots. 12. — .Vnd the pilots here go out for some days at a time, don't they, waiting for vess'ls. A. — Yes, I have known them to go down to the Cape. Cross t'xaniination by Mr. Lans-ing. ii. — Mr. Hobinson, yoti have been a liuilder. What boats have you built? I ( (Uild not begin to tell you the numbei ii. — S< aling schooners? A. — No, I never built any sealing schooners. i). — In your work on this vessel, when yon to«»k lirr she !iad her cabin on board; she hadn't been stripjied inside? A. — I cut her in two. ii. — What was the size of the cabin? ,\. — I couldn't tell you. ii- — Well you have some idea. A. — 1 might say it was 12 feet, and it might (Uily be 10. (J.— Twelve feet S(i"uare? A.— About. i]. — What was the size of her forecastle? A. — A pretty long forecaNtle; about 12 feet long. (i.— Clear across the beiim? A.— T couldn't tell you. i). — Did you juit in any bins f»n' salt? A. — No. (i.— As a shipwright were you running a yard of your own or were you the emjiloye of another? A.- I am at Mr. Lang's yard a good deal of the time. shipwright and boat- Sealing boats? A. — If i'A ii'i'l •,h? '€t I' ft ,, .MipiHllf r» < • T^ ***<' lO 20 30 50 156 Q. — And .voti sjKiik (if Imildors' iiioasnrcincnt. Wluil is tlic inoitiiiiif; of tluit? A. — Tluit is wliiil a iiiiiii takt'N his toiiiiafjf fioiii. h, I supjtose about S}'! (>."). Q. — She was worth then more tlian it wotild cost to build a new vessel? A. — "N'oii have yot to lake llu> vessel a]iart; you cannot take her ajiart for nothiu!.':. Q.— Then that vessel (hat has been cut in two, and lias been lenlhened her, would that make any dilTerence in Iwr value? ,\. — Not if si le was s< >und. 157 yon von "^^m 10 20 30 40 50 60 (2. — Wlicii .voii (lid I lie work on lior did von also put on a nt'w ;lh of the vessel? A.— Some of them the entire length. (^._l>irf>tt.v near all to ])iece8. (i- — And yon say. according to your ob.servation, that she was sound all tlirongh? A. — Yes. Q. — Is there any dilfercnce between Oregon pine and Douglas tir? A.— I think the Douglas fir is a little harder. Q. — You S!iy it s a harder wood? .\. — Tougher wood. Henry Ferdinand Siewerd called, and sworn: (Direct examination by Mr. Teters.) Q. — \Vliere do you live. 5Ir. Siewerd? A. — ^'ictoria. (J.— What is your occupation at the jtresent time? A. — nuister mariner. Q. — Are you engaged in thi' sealing business? A. — Y'es, hir. Q. — I believe you comnmnd a sealing vessel? A. — Y'es, sir. . — And I dare say an' interested in them? A. — Yes. (i. — Have you any interest in any of the claims bi'fore this Convention? A. — None, sii-. Q. — II()W long have you had anything to d<) with the seal- ing business in N'ictoria? I started in 1SS7, in September. ii. — In whose emplovment did vou go at that time? A. — Hall, (i<. -pel & Co. i-l—M Yictoiia? A.— Yes. sir. 0- — \Yere they engaged in the sealing business? A. — N'es. sir. (^ — Had they any ships when you went there? A. — They had ;in interest in ilie schooner Sapphire and also in tile schooner "Waneia." •''¥ m ■1 WjFi ■, l with llall. «j;oci»»'l & t"o. did they purchase any schooners, and if so, how many? A. — I went east tliree times for tluni and purchased the schooner "Au- rora," "Ocean Helle," and "(leneva" in 1SS7. 1SS!» and IS'JO. Q. — Where did you fio to purchase these schooners? A. — To Ilalifux, Nova Scotia, and then to Lunenb«'rg. Q.— That is in 1HH7? A.— Yes, sir; tlie "Aurora."' (f. — Now if you will tell me the tonnage? A. — About 70 tons. Q. — Was she a new vessel when you bought her? A. — About six years old; she had been a tishernian. Q. — What was her initial price? A. — The first cost was !f2.400. Q. — What did she stand you before you left Halifax with her? A.— $(!,(;()(», or thereabouts. Q. — What did it cost to bring her About ^1,20(1. (i. — So that with those tigures she $7,><0(>? A.— About that; yes, sir. (i. — She was afterwards engaged in seal fishing? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — The next vessel that you got — y(m mentioned three vessels — did you buy more than three? A. — I bought the fourth one, the "Doi-a Sieward." Q. — In what vear did you buy her? A. — In the year 1891 ; October, 18!)1. " Q. — You bought her where? A. — I bought her at Lunen- berg likewise. Q. — Was she on the stocks when you bought her? A. — She was new on the stocks; yes, sir. Q. — What did that vessel cost you when you left Halifax? A.— When I left Halifax she cost |S,74S. Q. — What did she stand your firm when she was landed !iere? A. — Landed here ou April 21. Crew's wages paid in fill , total cost of sclK'oner delivered at Victoria was l|!i»,t»:{!».20. Th'M includes new spars, new lore-sail and jib, cordage, also one hunting boat and a stern boat. Q. — Could ycni give me her tonnage? A. — !):{ tons. Q. — She was also employe d by your firm in the sealing busi- ness? A. — Yes, sir No by Hall, (Joepel & Company, but bv another comjjanv I formed afterwards. ■q.— I»id vou take another vessel? A.— The "Ocean IJelli-" was next. She was bought in 1890 at a first cost of 12.40(1; she was SO tons register. i-l. — Was she new. A. — She was between six and seven years old. Q. — Where was she bought? A. — At Lunenberg. Q.— Originally cost |2,400? A.— Originally cost |2,400. Q.— Cost leaving Ilalifiix? A.— 1«.800. Q.— Slood you when here? A.— 18,0(10 or a little over. tj. — Slie was used by Httll. (loepel & Company as a sealing vessel? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You have another one. the "Oeneva"? A. — Y« s, sir. Q. — Where was she bought? A. — At Lunenberg likewise. (}. — Hy yoiii'self? A. — S'es. sir. y. — What did she cost? A. — She cost in the neighborhood of #8,700 landed here. Q. — Her tonnage? A. — Her tonnage, I think, was about 90. She cost |;{,000 fir.st cost, was live years old. i}. — Now we have then from you the statement that you in the course of your experience have gone to Lunenberg, Nova Scotia to buy no less than four schooners. I want you to ex- jdain to the Commissioners why you took the ti'ouble of going away around tliere? .\. — Well, at th(> (ime we found it the cheai»est way to get a good, reliable vessel, notwithstanding '59 zo 30 the link of liriiifjint; her iirouiid. ISuildiii); hen* was ratluT (OMtlv in lliosc (l:(,vs iiiid we foiiiid it clicMpcst t(» p» then'. (^.l_.Ju8t talce tiiosf four vt'sscls wo hnvi- Bpukcn of that vou yourself brouKlif around from Luncnln-rR, if you had "bft'n atilvcd to sell thiin lu-ro at the very fi{?ure that they cost you landed here, would you have sold them at that price? A. — \o, air. Q. — Wei-e they as a matter of fact saleaMy worth more? A. — They were, sir. 10 (i. — And if you at that time had built vessels of that de- scription here in Viilorla, could you have built them for those figures or would they have cost you more? A. — They would have cost considerably more in the early part of IMST iuid ISS!». Q. — And would the same remark apply to ISSO? A. — Well, it would naturally, because before the C. P. K. was ojiened labor was scarce here. Q. — As a matter of fact, ran you build vessMs cheaper now or the lasr few yeai's from 18!)(>, than you could in 1.SH7? A.— Considi-rably, I think. Q. — Supposin'JT yon have a vessel of say 1)0 tons, and a ves- sel of say 30 tons, and 3on come to figure what they cost per ton, would the small vessel cost more ]>er ton than the large vessel? A. — The small vessel would cost considerably more Iter ton. Q. — Hefore going to th<' trouble of going around to Lun- eiibei'g to get these Nova 8cotia schooners, did you make (inpiiries as to whether you could get suitable vessels on (Ills side? A. — Yes. sir, I enquired at San Francisco, and likewise corresponded with parties on the Kound. Q. — Of cours.', now I refer particularly to the year 1887; at that tiiiu' did you enquire? A. — Hefore I went east the first time, my lirm had left it with me, and I wanted to do what was right and left nothing undone to inform myself where the best market would be. Q. — And having made those enquiries, you concluded that it was the cheapest way to go east? A. — 1 did. Q. — You considered that a good business transaction. A. 40 — 1 did. For illustralioii in the year 18!H the schooner "Vic- toiia" was built here; she cost over ?ll,000. (2. — llow much tonnage? A. — About 75 tons. Q. — A\as she built for sealing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. -Who built her? .\.— 1 think Mr. McDonald and Mr. Clark; one of the local builders anyhow. Q. — In iidditien to the actual cost of bringing them around from Halifax is (here any considerabh' risk of their being lost? A. — ^'es. sir. Q. — .\s a matter of fact have some of the vessels been lost ' coming around? .\. — Ye.s, sir. The Commissioner art of the I'niti'd States: — You know perfectly well what that is — about .T i)er cent., per- haps jier cent, up here. The standard rate is 4 1-2 jht cent.. New York to San Francisio. Witness: — One vessel started for me. the "Aurora," and she came to grief in tlie Straits of Magellan, Q. — ITow long does it take one of these vessels to come around as a rule? .\. — I went (Uie time in 108 days, and 63 another time in l.">7. Q. — You brought tlicm around youself? A. — Two of them. Q. — I belii've y(ni were not jtersonally accpniinted with the "Caroleiia?" .\. — No, I was not. Q. — Hut from your knowledge of vessels, take a vessel in 1887 suitable for sealing, and of the tonnage of .'?2 tons or tlierea bonis, would ,vou consider f 4.000 a high or low valua- tion? A. — I should consider that a very reasonable valua- f'l W:ti m tei, 1m |f:M m Ml Mi m ' ' i6o lO 20 I 3« .1 40 50 fyo ti«»ii niiiHiilci'iiiu I lie <>x|i('i'ii-iMt> I liiid tit'tci-waniM in bu.viiiK v«'HM<'Ih. ti. — V(»ii sditc iis ii iiiiitfcr <»f fact tliiit .voii ncv*'!- wiw tlic ••rarolciiH?" A.— 1 will say tliat in 1S!»1 1 paid !||t;{.'_'()0 foi- a vi'MMcl about ."50 ycaiH old, ii. — What toiinaK*' was slic? A. — 4(». ,' of 1S!H!. vt' von have not an,v Hpccial knowlfd>;«' oi' tlii- vainc of sklnH in lSS(i iMid ISS7? A. — No, sir, I was not nninar, Q, — \V«'n' .von scalinj; in Ihc vcar ISS7? A. — No sir, I ar- rived lifiv witli a vosst'l in iShS, in Ajnil. (i. — Tlicrt'foic ,voii cannot jrivc anv cvidcnct' as to llw sua!- inj; operations that year? A, — \o, sir. i}. — Tlnit is all the vessels that von can jtive ns any state- ment ahont? A. — Yes, sir, ii. — Have yon fi-oni yonr exj»erience nnide any calinliilions aH to the annnal cost of provisioning one of these vessels for a sealinfj voyaj?e. That is Si-llled by the number of men employed isn't it? .\, — Ves, sir, since I have lieen manaj;- inf^ the "Sieward" my provisions when carryinn wliitt,' hunt- ers were in the nei,!rhl>orliood of ifiJ.liOO, ii. — Just fiive me her tonna^;e a};'ain? A. — iV.i tons. ii. — And she carries how many men? A, — She carries (i lK)ats — stern boats, IS or l!l men; Ii- men. The provision bill for the round vova,!;e of about !) or 10 months would be .fU.LMMI, ii. — Then you have an ammunition bill? A. — An ammuni- tion bill besides. The Commissioner on the pai't of Her Majesty; — .Vre yon able to say about how much you allow i»er day per man? A, — \o Your Honour I have never {jone into that. ii. — Y(tu speak from your «'.\perience <»f having; run that vessel for how many years? .\. — We had while hunters two year.s — three years. That is a fair averaj^e compared with other vessels likewise of the same tonnage. ii. — That is the amount it actually cost you for those three years? A. — The store bills here and in Jajtan to jtro- visi(»n the vessel for !) or 10 months, whatever the voya^je may be. Q. — That is your actual e.xjterience? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the pait of the I'nited States: — That is about flOO to a man, Mr. Peters:— A lillle more than flOO per man. To Witness: — When the vessels come back they sonu'times have provisions left on board have they not, tiour, and thinjis of that description? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Are these ]uacti f;!r)(l l<> keep Imt III* to lit'i- iftfU- hir Nliindiii'il. Q.— Thill is (lie jM)>v(». {iiiiis, powder, iiiiiiiiiinilioii. shot, wiids. et*'. (^. — \(,>v >vc ciin eiisil.v divide tin 111 into nuns and aiiuimiii lion; voii would liiive how many yiiiiB on boiird? A. — I think we iMii'cliased fourteen. i^.— Ai alxmt what? A.— Hftl'J I think. iJ._Aiid the n St would be for iiiinuiinilion? .\.— Shells, IMiwdei'. Wilds and nil those tliinns. (i.— Then what other expense do yon hiive on ii seiilin^r vessel before seiidiiifj; her out? A.— The boa Is and boats' '•(|iiipnienls. ti.— Von use white hiiiilers, ami bouts, do you? \. — In those yeius we did on the "Dorii." .Mr. Teters: — Possibly 1 niijjtht ask from this witness the value of llmse boats as it comes up in the titse? Mr. Dbkinson:— I would ii little rather put It in the other case. Sir. l?odwell:— This witness is about to sail on a soalint; voyaj{e. To Witness: — When are you i^oiny? A. — In about threi' weeks from now. ii. — Your vessel is f;eltin)j; reiidy? .\. — Yes, sir. (}. — The next tiling is ciinoes. tind I believe you don't ofttn buy them'/ .\. — Yes, we very frequently buy them. (i. — Yon hadn't bought iiny in ISSG'/ A. — No, sir; bonjjiht tluni liist yiiir, or the yetir before. ii. — Are there any other items of <'X]' use that you i)ut on boiird your sealiiijj vessels'/ A. — Cookinj; utensils, of course and a cei-liiiii iimiiuiit of s|)iire corda;;'e, blocks iind sails. (i.— Of course all the ordinary chiirts and everythin}; of that ^ol•t'/ A. — Yes. sir. (2. — 1>() yon know anything iibout what is ciilled a ■ -ilop chest'"/ A. — Yes, sir. ii. — \\ill you expliiin t(» the Commissioners what a "slop chest" is'/ A. — It is ii slock of clolhinfj. The rommissioner on the jiart of the Tnited States: — I fiuess we know whiit a "slop chest'' is. ii. — Is it usual to ciirry a. "sloji ciiest with a supply of thinjrs to be sold to the crew? A. — Yes. Q. — Tliiit is sometimes owned by the owner, and sometimes by the rii|itinn? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Is it usuiil to jiive any cash to the caiiliiin on a loiij; voyap' of that descriiition? A. — Used to be in former yeais. Tn early days we alwiiys ciirried from f IIIO to $51)11 to Ifl.llOK. ii. — I Jut it is not so now? A. — 'No, sir; it is done away with. Q. — Mnt in 1S8G it was done? A. — Yes, sir. I carried it in 1 SsiS. Q.— Thiit was the custom then? A. — Yes. sir. Cross-exiimination by Mr. IMckinson: ii. — ("iiptain, when yon fitted out tlie "Dora Sieward" I suppose tliiit was not an exceptional equipment? Yon did not jjive her more tlnin usual for ii seiiling voyage, or less than usual? A. — Have voii reference to the provision Itill? Q.— Yes. A.— About l?!l'.0(»n to f 2,2(10 is ii fair averiige. ii. — If I nnderstiind you, tluit is for i> voyiige to neliririi Heii and to Japiin before her r«'tnru? A. — She left here the n 'iff ffl Ml \d( ,,, IJjpiillV i6j 1 I I lO 20 Itilirr |»iii-( of l>*- Jaiciii r:ivo licr llic projM'r propor- tion. (/. — .\nd if you wore lining out a Hlii|> to go to Iti^liring Sea for tiio Healing Hcason. from .May, wo will nay — what in llic end of tlic HcisHon? .\. — Tlic latter pait of Septcmltcr. (i. — What ccpiipmcnt would yon give her Himply to go to itcliring Sea? .\. — The SfU.litM). for instance, covcrn the voyjigi", of ten months, and thin would only <'over a jtcriod of five montliH. Of conrne I would take the ]>roportion. (i. — And you give a lilu'ral allowance ho that wlien you come hack you laive somelliing left? .\. — It is liettcr to have suHicient in casi' of emergencies. I'erliaps the ten montliH' jirovisions would l»e snflicicnt for twelve if it come to a pincii. (i. — .\nd of course you provide ammunition on tlie "Sic- ward" for fourteen gnus? A. — Eacli man gets two guns. ii- — ^'ou were asked as to canoes, and you said voti had d(alt in canoes? .\. — The i>ast year, and tlie year before. ti. — Where do you get cances? A. — Well, the Indians huy tliem Ihcmselvcs, hut we have to st.niid l)y mid pay fjtr them. (i.— Tin n in your trij»s yoii om|»loy Indians as well as white hunters? A.— When I tirVt sjioke of \\w !||c.',LMM» outfit, we cai- ried then wliite hunters. The last year I ciiiricd Indians. Q. — .\ud wliiit do tlie canoes cost? .V. — They cost all tlie way from #l'fl to f40. They have lieeii enhancing scmiewhat in value as the demand has grown foi' them. The Indians are getting the licst of ns. If there is a scarcity of canoes in a [diice. they make us jiay for tlu'm. Q. — That has Iteen the tendency witliin the last tlire*' years? A. — Since I have hei ii connected with if the tendency lias l»ein to rise in value of tiie canoes, and in some <-ani]is tiiey are lower llian in otlicrs. (.i. — Hut tlierc was not so niudi scaicity, and such high prices when you commenced? A. — .\l)out two years ago there was atioiit the same demand as now. ii. — Now xdii sneak of the fund handled by the capain on starting out on tliis long voyag<> — Tlie ('ommissioiicr on the jiart of flie T'nifed States: — Did 50 lliis witness testify anylliing as to the cost of canoes? Mr. Dickinson: — He sjioke of their taking canoes. TIic Coiiimissioiicr on tlie part of tlie riiitcd States: — As to flic cost of them? Mr. Dickinson: — Ih- did not on direct examination; I am asking liim. The ('ommisxioiier on the [lart of Her ^lajesty: — We did not catcli whet'ier lie stated to voii. 30 40 60 Mr. Dickinson: — Tie did, your Honour (J. — Is tlie e(iiii|uiieiit for a sealing voyage better than it was formerly, more lil>eral and Ix'tter stores? A. — No, sir, I don't know as they ai'c. Q. — Al»oiil the same as when you first rommeiiced? A. — Of course tlure are more cainied meats now being used I ^'3 tliiiii roiiiHTl.v; it Im iliciiiMT (liiiii wliat suit iiM'iit Ih. (^.—Ndw, 11 word iiK III tin- vchmcIm. W«' will liikc tin- IliKl vcHHcl til wliirli vnii liiivc H|i(iki'n, llic •Aimnii." Y<• i'<'l>iiii'' A.— I had to lake inv ehaiices on 'o that. il. — What .von added lo lier was in the iialnre of over- hanliiiK and "re|iairiii;,' her? A.— OverhanliiiK the riKt?liig, tiverhanlin^' the sails, hauling' her np on the wa.vs al llali fax. il. — .\iid whil was she worth ns she stood liefore .von Ininlcd lier out and did her re|iairint;? A.— Von eaniiot as certain (he Iroiilile until yon haul lier out and see her liol- toin. ti. — What was slie worlh liefore yon liad jint on any re- 20 pairs? A.— In that market she was evidently worth what I paid for her. Q. — Von didn't dlHcover that she was worth any more in that market, did yon? A. — I went around and drove the li(>st har^'aiii I conid, and t;ot the best I conid tor (he mone.v. (i.— What did you estimate her value, as you hauled her out there? A. — In Halifax? Q. — Ves, in Xova . value on her than what I ]iaid for her. Q. — Yon wouldn't say she was worth any more in the 30 m;irket? A. — Of course a man thinks he has ^fot a tfood liarjjcain. and worth a little more than he has ]iaid for her. (i. — Just pive US the value after you had hauled her out ami examined her? A. — I considered I had a }r:{, say? A.— I think, al the pres- ent time, the local builders can comiiete, that is, consideriiit; the price laid down here. (i. — Tliat is, il is in their favor .just the cost of briiifjinn ('I'll t h around'; 1 es sii lO 20 164 ii. — III t'iivdi' of tlic hniil Imildcr? A. — Vi's, sir. it would <-o.s( iis iiiiicli l<» brill}; a vcssi-l nrouiid and lay her down lii-ir as the additional (OMt. ii. — Now what was tiii' Anroia built of? A. — Of b^t'tli, Icaix and biirli. ii. — And of what wi'if her masts built? A. — Orcf^on I'inu J think. i-i- — .Vnd the Dora Sicward? A. — Siic is built of hard- wood, bt'i'fli and biicli princiitallv; her spars, Orcfion I'iiii'. i.— The Ocean Mcllc likcwisi- About the sainc niatciial 1 (i.— And the Ocean Uelle? Q. — And the (iciieva" (2.— Hardwood, .ill of ihein? A. — Ves .sir. iy — IMd you see any pine siiips built in N'ova Scotia? A. — Well, 'he slieathiiii; may be pine. ii. — The limberiii};? A. — No, sir, not those tishermeii that ] have been in the lialiit of bnyiiifi. i-i. — ^dii never found any built on the -Mlaiitic Coast of jiine in all your e.\amiiiatioii did you? A. — I (Uily examined the tisliermeii. ii. — Well, fisheriiien, this <-lass of ships "J A.— N o. Sll i]ially beech and liirch — hackmati ii. — They are better than piiii 'U'l liiev? -■S'es, sir. ii. — Makes a better and more substantial vessel does it not" A.— V^ 1 should jiid Ke-direct examination. ii. — There is one (iiiestioii 1 want to briiifj out, and that is in re}i;ard to the purchase of canoes? Voii stated to Mr. Dick 30 iiisoii that you lioiijiht some canoes. That was in late years? A. — This jiast year and the year before. ii. — With regard to the year ISSti. or 1SS7. you did not pur- chase any canoes? A. — N'o. sir, ISSS was the firs' year I went out with Indians; I did not have to ]iiirchas<- any. ii. — Do you remember the first year you di. — And I understand von to sav — I don't kno\ ,'heth was correct or not — that de]ieiids very much on circumstaiK you have to ]iay tiie Indians A.— If Ihere are but a very lew can to the supply. oes oil hand I hey |iul the price up accordiiifj ii. — \'ou were asked by m.\- learned friend as to what wood these vessels were liiiill of. and you slated some of the ves- sels, namiim lliem were built of beech'aml birch — liardwo(Ml, -Mv learned friend seems to think it is the best wood in the world. \(pu know much about the dilTereiice (1^ A.— I doii'l ch to I ic a sll ipb o lilt men i<'iinire (o lie \V( II fed? A. — Keasonablv fed, yes. Xo e.\l la vaf;ance or In.xnries alioni it. (2. — (iood food? A. — ^'es, sir; jjdod. sulistanlial food. Q. — What kiud of canned goods? A. — Here iu late years it has been found that canne(l beef and mutlou, for instance, is cheap<'r than bai'relled sail beef. Of course salt beef shi-inks consideralily in the <(iokinf;, and canned bet'f is riylit there. i-i. — I would like lo ask you what <|uanlily of salt you carry (Ui a voyajre, referriii}; now lo the "Dora Siewarora. Siewai'd," yon wei'e sjieakiuj;- of il tri]) when you cannot shtol in Mehrin^' Sea. Therefore you want noammuniliou foi' Itelniu Sea? A. — Speakiufiof former ■+ yc.irs when we were allowed lo j^o lo Itchrin;^ Se.M. of course one half <>f the amniiiniiion would not be sulllcieni, bei'ause in I hose years the principal calch was made in Uehriny Sea. {}. — There would be a larjrer prop(U'li(Ui of ammunition I'cijuired foi' Mehrinj; Sea than Ihe other part of it? A. — ''es. sir. ii. — That is shown. I belie\c, by Ihe catch fiu- years? A. — Yes. si I'. Q. — The I.MrfT'sl calch was iu Hehriiig Sea until these re- ;;ulalions? .\. — K.xplainint; Hie nature of 11 Dora's" voy- a;;e, I say we went lo .lapan .and up to the Conimodore Is- lands, in that '-ase we W(uild only rec|uire one half Ihe ani- niunition. Q. — Mut if ymi had been noiun lo Ihe I'.ehriiin Sea. and iisiiiK the aniiihiuiliou there willioiil the re;;ulalions. that would not ap|(l.\. and you would re(|iiire a larnci' ](roi)(utiou of anuiiuniliou? .\. — Ves. sir. (ISeci'oss.i Go Q- — NNhen did yiui brinjr the "Sieward" around' .\. — In Ihi' siu'int; of isiiii, purchased iu Oitobei', isoi. (i. — .\nd you wei'e not fj;i\iufr the ei|nipiiienl of the "Sie- ward" as i'e(|uii('d in \s>.)-2:> ,\.— I am liivinjj tor Ihe full .<"avon of l.'^'ft, and IS!H, she arrived here iu .\|ail. (i.— You were Hiving il for ISiCt? .\.— 1S!I;{. and Isitl. ')• — NN as there any rep:u!alioiis |uc\('uliug yoiii' shooiiun up there iu ISi)!? A.- We weiil In .lapaii llien. Q. - Did you at) into MehriuK Sea? .\. No, sir, she has not been lo Mehriun Sea except tli(> hisl two yea-s. ;e ' I \'j6 (^.__\Vtll, I siiii|M)S(' vol' liiid the saiiic infoi-ination iiud kiiowlftl^^f of llif jiuiclias • of sliips in ]SS(J and 1.SS7 that vou liavf of .iuiocs. In rcitly to Mr. I'ctcrs yon said you ' had no knowh'djic »>f 'in' l»ni(has(> of canoes in ISStJ and 1SS7. Yon have no k'.owh-dfte of tlic iimrhasc of ships in ISSCt and 1SS7 for the scalinfi business, liave yon? A. — Woll, only what I "iatiieicd it ttie time, before 1 was conunissioned by I lie tirni. 1 in*'.iinied myself as mneh as I eould at San Francisco and 1 1' Sound here. lO (i. — You ma-^c no |nircliiisi> of sliips prior to 1^87? A. — Xo, sir. (i.— Tliis teslimony all has reference to since that time, doesn't it? A. — Yes, sir. '«M William Turpel, a witness called on the part of fireat Krit- 20 am, \v IS dnlv sworn. Direct examination bv .Mr. I'.odwell: (i-v our name is Will laiii Tiii'i ■I: A. — Yes, sir. -^■es, sir. t^. — .\iid you live in N'icloria? il. — NYliat is your occu]iation? A. — .\ sliipwrinht. <5. — Where did you learn your trade? A.— I learned my trade first in Nova Scotia, Maitlaud. (2.— How Ion;; a^d was that? A.— That was ISO years afi'o. t^. — And from thai place where did you no? A. — Cali- fornia was the liist. (i.— .\nd I hen'. ~l'"r(uii there to A'ictoria. ears V^. — How Ion;;' since you came to N'ictoi'ia", last Ajiril. (}. — What did yon do iu Vict(n'ia? .\. — \Vell. 1 worked for awliile at most aiiytliiiiH 1 could do; Ihiiifi's were pretty <|uiet. (J. — How loiiii' belore you be^an to woi'k a I your tra■ What class of vessels have you built ? .\. — Some small, and s(aiie pretty };()i)d sized. .V couple of s(>alin;; schooiiei's; iplite a few lii;.'s. (>. — I belie\(' \(iii have built a \'ewsel of ronsideiable sl/e — a lar "(' sleamei .\. V(S. H. -What was her (onna^ .\ I dn't sav. ii. Well, aeiieially? .\. Well. I should s", , she would be KM) l( likelv. ■M: lO 30 40 50 60 167 Q. — N(iw hcfoii' I f-o into Vdur cvidtiui' particiiliiily, do you know iinvdiinff iilioni llic ri'lnlivc vninc of Doiif^liis fir iintl (dlicr woods for sliipliuildin^? A. — ^V^'I1, I niifjlil lio a little prcJiidictMl, lint I think it is the best wood I have over worked (ov shipbiiihlin^'. (jneslions by tile Coniniissioner on tlie part of tlii' United Wlates: — What jiait of tlie vessel do vi.u use it for? The wliole iiiill? A.— The whole hull. (i. — I'dr ceilini"', hiheathin^', tinilenng out, beams? A. — ^'ea, sir. ii. — What do you use foe knees, the same? A. — 'W's. sii'; it is fine material. That was the ciMiiracl. ♦i. — How di do il a littb- clicapci', lo start in I bad (|uitc a litl!<- tini- bci' in tlic .vai'd which I could work in, and I was anxious to sec what they could be built for, so I went to work and I buill lici'. (2. — And yet you bad this material on hand? A. — Yew, sir. (i- — \Nbicli yoii Ihoujilil you could use to advantage? \. — Yes, sir. If it had not been for that 1 would have lost more than T did. The Commissioner on Ihc ]iar( of the United States:— When was this ve.s.sel built? Mr. r.odwell:— In ISSO. -Mr. Dickinson:— 1>;S!»-)M) lu- .said. Q- — Now. did you build any other schooners? A. — Yes, tliat year I built anotiier. Q.— >^tate tile circiimslanc(>s of the building of that schooner? A.— I was pretty well jiosted when I started in on her, and I made tiu>m an offer what I would build tlie schooner for; ^ol an agreement drew np; the contract jtrice was fit »,.')(»». (^ — Had you any connection witli it yourself? A.— 1 was supposed lo lake n certain ]K)rlion when she was com- jdeted. (i.— What is her lonini}>('? A. — She rejjisters ")(» Ions. (i.— Xow, in liuildlnt« that schooner, how did you obtain your materi.ils' A. — I i)aid evervthins. Q.— Can you tell us wliat she cost at Iface Rocks readv f(n' sealing? A.— When 1 lowed her down lo Hace Hocks she cost #i:{.:.':!i».!n. (i,— 1 believe you h.ive (lie vouchers for all those jiav ments here? A. — ^'es, sir. (l — .\iid llial is llie exiict auu>uiit taken from the vouch- ei's? .^.-— "\'es. (^— Now t'ie'> .Mr. Tuipel if you Imd to build thnt schoner the "Siidie Tui'iiel" in \i<((iria in the yeai' ISStl. or any year from I SSI lo lss7 would it have cost mcu'e or less to liuild it. A. — Well I have an idea il would cost a little more. (J.— Win do you say thai? .\.— The metal spikes and galvanized spikes were a good deal higher at that time. :irt of the Inilcd Slates: — I>h you want us lo biiihi the schnoner here. I should think you had gone f.ir eiiongh into that. .Mr. Modwell:— I thought il would be useful to the (Nmi niissioners to c(un|iaic the prices, tmd then il would be simply ;i mailer of iirgiiment ami inf( fence as lo whether the cosi would be higher or lower. The witness savs it costs 169 10 20 .iO .|0 iiioi'c. I iiskcd tlic (iiK'slion because I tlioii^lit it would be useful to Vmir Honours to consider {{enerally the iM'i<'e8 of (lie j)i'inci|)i>l niiit<>riiils foi' tliose vears as compared with tlie vear in wliicli (lie Sadie 'riifpel was built. The Connnissioners on the part of the I'nited States: — Take voni- own coiirsi'. (). — V(ni siiv the cost of metal spikes was much hiyhet then? Xow tlieii take lumber? A. — Lumber at that time |»er tiioMsand would averaf^e from about |!l(i to ^2(!, and wiien 1 built it was fiom .^12— ri}i;ht now it averatfH from |>S tollilS. When I built the Sadie 1 think I j)aid *10 per thous- a'ld for round iumbei-, and f':'") for deckinj,', avt-raninj; :(l)Out If Hi. (i. — Take (he irot\ work? A. — The iron work is a Rood deal cheaper now than it was then, and when I built tlie Sadie it was :i lot clieaiM'r than wlieii I first started in business here. Q.— What did von pay for labor in IKSC,? A.— f4 on the work — |."i up till lately, but reduced now. i-i. — Sjieakiu;; ^cenerally, .Mr. Turpel. what would you say would be the cost per ton of btiildiiifr a V(»ssel in N'ictoria in the years around about ISSt; and 1SS7? .\. — Well it cer- tainly could not be done for less than .1il7.~) to ^12(M) a ton. (.1. Outfitted for the sealinj; voyajfe? A. — Ves. (.}. — What would you say would be the cost of building a vessel ready to be Mlted out for a sealing; voyafi''? A. — I mean she would be all ready but takiu}:: her stores, I didn't include the ri>;}?iii}j:; have her ready for about fl7.^. (i. — What measurement are you s]ieakin;i of now? A. — I don't know much about measurements, only the reptister measurements Q. — Do you know abour the "t'arolena?" A. — I know a little about tile "Carolen."..'' (i. — What would you value her at jicnerally? A. — I done a little job on her once for Mr. .Miiusie, but I wouldn't say about' her value. If slie was as ^^'ood as they say she was, I should think she would be wortli about if-tioOO.' ii. — That is, if she was the chaiacter of vessel that has been described? A. — Yes; but I don't know. (IJecess taken until 2 ::.{(».) H U 1 .\l half jiast two in the afleinoon the Commissioners I'e- simicd scats. The examiiialioii of (lie above witness, William Turjiel, was coiitimied. (I!\ Mr. Modwell.) and (y — Have you any interest in tlie claims which are now bein^I investifiatid liefore tiiis Coiiiiiiission? .\. — No, sir. Cross cxaniiiiatioii by .Mr. 1>ansin(;: Q. — Mr. TiH-pel. were you en;;a};e(l in sliipbnihlinn in ISSti? .\.— I was workiiij;- at that business. Q. — 1M(] you have charjfe of a yard? .\. — Y. s. fjp Q. — IHd you build any schooners other than those two yon have mimed? .\. — No sdiliiij; sclioners. ti.— Did you build any in |sS(i? .\.— That is what 1 lan not say. Q. — Did villi bill nil any si'aliiis i^ihooiieis in 1SS(!? A — No, I «iid iKit. (.j. — Ho you know of am one biddinj; on anv vessels in ISSti? A - \„. Q-— Wel'e Ihiii aM\ vessels built herein N'ictoria ill 1S,S«? A,— Well, (here were no sralinj; SI Siioners, I don't ^dHl :< ...^:. 170 ;' i '-...J. '•1 fliink. I (1(1 iHil know iilioiU llic "Siivwnid'" when she was liiiilt. ImiI slic was llic liisl dial was Iniill here. I ilo not know of anv hciii^ ImiiII on Dial dale, alllion^li llicrc inij;lit I.e. (J. — Do von tliink (licic wanany (Icniand licic for schooners for sealing iniiposes in ISSfi? A. — Tlial is what I cannot sav (}. — '^'ou know of no liids beiity' ina(h- hv any one? A. — I made none wiialsoever for any seaiinn- siliooners in liiat day. 'O i.i. — Wiial is I lie dilferen(e lietween 'Konnlas tir" and "Ore- }i(»n pine," is tlieic any diti'erence? A. — I (h> not know any dilfereiice wlialever. i-i. — Are lliey tile same pi-ice? A. — Tliey may not lie. Itat if lliere is any ditVerence I do not know. We always call it Houylas tir here, and some call it Ore;ion!;la.'^ tir. (2. — Uhat is (he ditVerence, if iiny. belweiii builders' mea- snr( ineiit and registered tonnajic? .V. — That is what I can- not say. Of coarse imilders" tin asnreineiit is the largest iind it wimld >;ive yon the most loiuianc (2. — How much more? .\. — It would lie the oiitsidc of the shiji and the rejjistered would be the inside. (}. — Ilow much iiKM'e? A. — Thiit 1 am not prejiared tft (ell 30 you. {}. — How many cubic feet in a builder's (on? .\. — 1 did not ti<^ure that out. ii. — How many cubic feet iii a rej;islered ton? A. — 1 do not know; I cannot answer that straifihl. ii.— l lielieve you stated that in the winters of lSS!t and 1S!(0 yon bnilt a vessel at tlie conlract )irice of !?(!,.")( (0, and that you lost :ifr>llO u]ion it. so that that vessel would cost about' 7.(1(1(1? A.— Ves. I think 1 lost more than !jf.-»(l() tiiion i(. (2.— ^.'(Kl is what vou stated? .\.— Ves. sir; tliat is about 40 ii. t2.--:|i!.")(»(l is what you have stated? A.— Ves. sir, thai is about it. (J.— What was the !onaa«c of that vessel? A.— If I do not mistake it icjiislered Tt~ tons. ii. — ^'ou built her (Hi a (alciilation of rejjistered toiiuafic did you? .\. — Ves. (2. — Is that .iistomary in bHildinn vessel.s? A. — Ves. so tar as I know. (). — \'(m buili the "Sadii Turpel" the followiuu vear? A. 50 -Ve.s. (2.— What was her cost? .\.—*l(i, 1(1(1, 1 Ihiidc. Thai was her contrai I price. 1 lielieve. (2. — What was her (oiina^c? .\.— ."(i tons. Q. — It seems dial in issll -a vessel with :i ton less Inirdeii cost !!<:!,."'>( Id niiuc than a vessel of die si/.e of di( "Mav Uelle." Is dial so'.' .\.— Thai is so. (2. — Hid yiMi ever wa» sej/cd. (}. — Hid you no o\(!' h.i- then? A. — I do not rememlier 1 was hired to do i-nnie work, .iiid some liilh- jolis, and ! done it and left her. >7i lo 30 40 60 (i. — l>i«I you s< f li.T outdttt'd and ivady (o start? A. — No, sir. (2- — Wliiil work (lisM<-l, and you nuidc tliat l>i<1 in writinj; lo oni> K. A. Holnian? l>o you' n'tall tliat fact? A.— No. Q. — Vou do not recall it? A. — I have no knowledfje of it. If I could see my bid I would say i; did, but without tluit I would. say thai II did not. t^. — I will read I his to you. which is to be found in V(d. \'H. of the Conjii'essional edilion ivlatiufr lo the fur seal ar- bitration, jiap' '•2. and Kxhibit F before the Taris Tribnnal. All', r.odwell: — What statement are you icadinfj;? 5Ii'. I.ansiuf;: -Jfr. Turpel's. Afr. l'o2. "I do iifii'ee to build a UH-ton sealint; schooner, and furnish model and all nialerials. She will be a fast saih'r. Will be ne.xt to "Halcyon." I will furnish tirst-class stock, and do the work to du' satisfaction of who may superintend the buihlin^. All will be done in accordance with the speciti- calions now on view for the sum of Five Thousand Dollars. This includes Main};, aiul stern-post for steam if required. "WM.LIAAr TUKPEL." (i. — IN) you remember (he cii-cums(ance of writiny; thai? .\. — 1 do not remembei- (hat. but I do no( say (hat it is not so. I would like to see my writinj; on it. Hut still it is not a bad bid. .\ :!;"> ton scluMiner at f.'MMM) is m>( bad. Q.— Would you have mad(> a bid of (hat kind? A.— That would not be too bad in \SU'2. il. — Thai would be abou( (he price? A, — She was snnill. (i.--She was :!.">((Uis. A. — I do not I'euicnilier dial (ransac- (iou, al(liou);li ! do not say il was not so. If I see il in my owi writ illy- I wil say I did so. Mat if I do not I will say (hat I did not. I ilo iio( remember. il. — Now, .Mr. Turpel, in rejiard to (he models used for seal- ing; vessels loday, do you now follow (he lines of (he '"('aro- leiia" ii.id vessels of liial slaiiip in buildiiii;. .\. — I iii'vtr saw Hie "Caroleiia's" lines in buildinp'. (i. — A'ou never saw la r oul of (lie wa(er? .\ — No. t^. — Was she (lu> usual iiunh I of vessels biiill when yon Were nijiiincd in biiildiiu!- scMlin}; vessels. .\. —Soinelliiu;.'' similar no doiibl. Q. — Did yoi. i;<» down iiilo (lie ('ar(deiia"s hold? .\. — No. I nevei- was in t. Q.— Now. will, reiiard lo il ul(i( of (he Sadie Turpel, how iiiurli did you slj.'e (lia( i( cos( (o provision her fur eij;li( iiiontlis criiis<'? Mr. Modwell: lb- 'las iiol .■ipokeii of pi'ovisioniufj; at all. mm .,'l,l' W-^' ^■Hi.i'-iM l^i Mr. I aiisiim:— He lix d i( :il '.,0(1(1 ,111(1 i( niiisi iiK lade lliat (To wiliiess:! W'lial was iIk oiUtit of llie Sadie Tiiiper.' .\. — li \\:isaboiii *'J.7S(l wilhoiii provisions. jj,..^ u "1 ' lO 20 30 40 50 60 172 Q.— If v(»n have the items llicrc will ,v«tii (ell ns liow that was made out. A. — It was for aumiiiiiitioii, Hacc Rocks .and insuianco. Q. — That was an t'litirciv new ontflt for the vessel? A. — Tliat was her oiittit excejit the provisions. Q. — You put in evervthin}i there except the provisions? A.— Yes. Q. — ^Vhy did von leave out the provisions? A.— These other things were jtaid for, and the provisions came from IJithet and Company, and I did not fict the hill at the time. Q, — Kvervthinu: in tliat out lit was new and complete? A. — — Everythinfr was new. <}. — ilow many boats had you on board? A. — Six sealinjr boats and stern boat; seven boats in all. Mr. Hodwell: — Have yon got the oritrinal doctiment in r<'- ference to that tender which yon asked the witness about. Mr. Lansinfj: — No. Mr. IJodwell: — 1 would like to have the orijfinal document because I want to examine him on it. Mr. Lansinjj: — We will ]»rodnce it. Mr. Hodwell: — When that is i)roduced 1 will close the rest of the witness" re-ex;imini',tion. He-examination by Mr. Hodwell. From that statement which you hav<' in your hands, give ns all the classitication of items under the head of onlfil, with the amounts of each. I do not want the mimes, but jnst the items and the amounts. Cannon and carriaj,'e !| fir).t)tt Amnmnition 4!>l.!)i) (5uns :?<>IU)(> Tinware 1:5.75 Drujrs l'M)l» Charts I'l.OO Furiiishin Towajfe to Uace Uocks 1.").IM) California Insurance Co 7tl.lK» Sun Life li'MHt Total li,7S(».-(> Q._That is the cost of the outfits? A.— Yes. Q. — You wei-e asked about Ihi' comi>arisoii between the ":\Iay H<'lle" and the "Sadie Tuip,|." What was the dilTer- ence i'l the work you did on the "May Helle" and on the ''Sadie Turpel?" A.— I would like to explain just one momeni whei'e till' dillerence in the cost came in. Tlie "May Helle" was a Hat bottom boat, very easily built, and measured a lot for lier si7,<'. Hut the 'Sadie Turpi'l" was lon)i and narrow, and sliarp and she is a lar^e boat, and rejiislered very litle toni.ane c()m|iaratively. i;3 20 30 40 6(9 t^.— VtMir (oiilriut for tlu- "Mii,v IJcllc" di*' not iiicliidi- jin.vtliliij,' but llu' liiill iiiul stiindiiin fijfuiiifi? A. — Y«'S. (i. — And in the Sadif Tiiiim-I ,vou put in oviTytiiing, filtinn licr lor HCii? A. — Yes. ii. — I (liinlv von Haid von worked in Nova Sccttia iind in California at .vonr tiadf? A. — Ych. i-i. — And von liavc also said tlial von repaired nearlv all llic sclidoners that came aronnd from Xova Scotia? A. — Yes. (^>. — Now. when von were making;: your comparison be- tween l)ou};las lir and other woods, on what experienc<' and infoimalion were you basiuf; it? A. — Well, the experience 1 have had in Dou^'las lir is that I have handled Hom(> ver,v old vessels here, and the majority of them were very sonnd when (dd. Take the easlern vessels with hard wood. 1 have not seen one bil what was a little defective around the counters. (i. — Yon say you have rejjaired some vessels built of Douulas fir that were jtretly old. Can yon mention any one of I hi in? .\. — lust lately I had been rei»airinf{ in the steamer "Htta While." and they claimed her to be thirty vcars old. t^.— What was she built of? A.— Of what I would call l)ou}ilas fir. Q. — What was her londition? A. — I stilpped her deck, ami Iter beams were as sound as the day they went in, and ( very'hinf; was sound and in jiood condition except a. little bit ai'ouml her counter. Q. — Did yon work on hard wood in these other jdaces? The Commissioner on the jiart of the Tnited States: — Do you not think, Mr. Hodwell, you are going back on your di- icct examination? Mr. I'.odwell: — I'erhaps so, your Honour. ]{(' crosscxamination by Mr. Lansing. (.i. — You stated that the item for guns was lji.'?(!0, is that ( orrect ? A.--Yes. (i. — How many guns did yon h.ive on board? A. — AVe lia(i twelve guns. il. — Shot gnns? A. — Yes. (2. — ,\nd how many boats had yon on board? A. — Six sealing boats and one stei'n Imat. Q.— And you paid .?(■>:{<• for these? A.— Yes. (i. — Did they have the sails and oars? A. — No. (i.^Did you sui)ply the sails? A. — I sujiplied the sails. {]. — Where dvs: A. — I iiiii ii Hliip lo till- lO Kxiiiiiiiii'd h.\ Sir riiarli's llibhi'il TiipiH'r. t^. — Mr. WiilkiT, wluit is voiir liiiMiiicss? liiiiiilri'. il — NViicro iliil von servo voiii' ii|>|>iiiill(oslii|i triido? A. — In a sliiii.viiid in Scolliiiid. Q__\Vlioif Wiis tliiitV A.— In r.artoii. on tiic Clyde; l>eii ids' was the name of llie siiipyaid. 12.— For liow many years were yon an apiireiitiee (liei-e? A. — For live years. Q.— After tlial where did yon woik? A.— 1 eaiiie out lo Canada in 1S71 ; after I lie (o Canada 1 staved in Toronto one Slimmer and llieii I came up lai (lie Wawsoii route. Q. — Wlial did yon do on (lie l>awson route. A. — W< liiiilt two sleaniers at a jdace called I'ort Francis; one above tile Tails and one below tlie falls. 20 Q. — .\fter lliat wlicre did yon work' A.— In till- Hed 30 Kiver country, down on I,ake Wiiinipetr. I was working on ii screw itrojieller for tlie llad.soii May <"ompany. (i.— I'robably the lirst projieller built on that water'/ A. — Ves; and I worked on the first sidi'-wlieel steamer ever built on that river, for flie ."SIcArtlmr Urotliers (i.— Where (ill yon work after that'.' A.— I came to Oak- land. Cal., and worked there for one summer. {}. — What were yon doiiij; there'? A. — Itiiildiiifi a steam- er, and I also worked on the docks in California for a while. (2. — Where were till se docks'.' .\. — There was mie called the North I'oint, and the other lliinlers; one It th north end of San Francisco, and the other was down at the south end. Q._What sort of voik were yon doiiij; there"? A. — Ke- jiairiii}; ships. Q. — .\nd from there yon came to riirlit to A'ictoria, Vict oria . .\.— Yea, Q.— About what time did yon come to Victoria? A. — T 40 came in .Taniiar\. IST.'. Q.—li^i-oiii tliar time aloiifr. what has been your business'.' A. — I was enjraiied until about ISSl in slii|) buildiii feet about the middle of her and made Ik r lai'tfei Q. — !n what caiiacily did yon act in conni'ction with that work -I was foreman. 60 Q — What sort of work did yon rarry on in Trahey's ship- yard' A. — Repairinu small steamers and schooners when tliey ciinie back from wherever they had been. There were not verv lujiiiy schooners in the port at thai time. O. — You wer,' biiildiiiy; small slejimers and rejiairiii!"- ves- sels from lime lo time'? A. — Yes. I miirht also state that I wiM'ked ii]i on the Skeeiia river in ISTfi; we built a iuii boat for Mc.Mlisfer liros.. and she wiis oiiite a lame shi]). .and jilied here as a liiji for eijfht or ten vears. O. — In \'our sliipyard. lia\c \(mi had occasion (o overhaul and re]iair seal'iijr Si-hooners? A. — Yes, some limes. H. — run villi >i\c llli' iiilliii'S of iill\ (if llir still ullcl'.s I hilt vim liiivi- wiirlu'il mi? .Mr. IMrkiiison— Is this |tiliir (it IssJ? Hir. riiiiM. II. TiipiM'i:— That wii.s in iMs:!. Il<' \as aiiotlior. (^_Thi' ••Caroli'iia" is thr vt sst I wr iinvi- Imtii talkiii!,' ihoiit in tliis niatlrr. A.- V (i.— In 1SS4 wi'if VOII Artiii}: Miasiifiii},' Siirvcvoi- for thin poll A.— Yrs t^.— In what month? A.— In tlii' month of April. g. — WiTf yon afti'iwaiils appointcil ollirially for tliat po sit ion? .\. — Yt's. (^— In what month? A.— In .May. 1SS4. (J. — As artiiiK mi'asiii'ini.' sinvcyor for Ilii- jiort of X'ictoi'ia hail yon anytliiiitr to ilo with Ihf ("aroli'iia? A. — \'i's; shi' hail soinr alti'i;i(ions inaili' to licr. ami I was lallfil in to |iiit im-asiirrmrMts on hor? Q.— I'.y whom \. — 15\ till' ("uslon»< aiithoiitii's at this |)OII Q. — Villi wt'i-f rath il ill for that |iiii']iosr A. — To incas- iiri' till' altt'iations wliirii had brcn put on in i'onHi>i|ncnri- of tiii'si' ii'pairs. 30 Sir <' II. Tiipju'r: — I may slatr for Ihi' infoiniatiou of tho ronimissioiifis, anil partiriilai ly in ii'^aril to the siinjjcslion niailc l»v till' CiimmlssiomT for the I'liitrd Stales lliat t1 U' iiioasiiriiiir rortifirati' ami the formula of papi-rs ri-i|iiiriMl in this I'onm-rtion will lio iiri'si'iitnl later on. We expeeled to have tlieni iliiriiifj; the e.\aiiiiiiatioii of the surveyor, hut we liave been disapiioiiited. To the witness.) Q. — Now, in the dis- i-liarf,fe of vonr diitv did von examine the Carolena ])arlii-iilar- ly? .\.— Yes. ' ' ■ ^o . IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k /. ^m^ ^ 1.0 I.I liilM 12.5 «Bii |22 Sf U£ 12.0 IL25 i 1.4 11.6 'A TO*' Sciences Corporation ^\ # \ <^ ^. 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WnSTIR.N.Y. MSN (716) S72-4S03 '<^. 6^ «■ ^f ^^ If^^lffllpiw lO 20 I'U 3*^ 40 50 60 17C iiiUKU'tinn it from llu- t'ii8l»'iii I'loviuri'H «>f ('iiiiada? A.— Yt«. y. — 1» that ilu' I'ustoin now? — A. — No. Q.— Had thf (liHtamt' in tlioHo not in any lar^e tiuantities. i.1. — S]K>al{in^ jj;t'"i''">ll.v- .V"" recolleet what the rate of duty was on tln'se materials? A. — It ranged from 17 1-2 jM'r eent. to 23 per rent.. l^. — Can you tell ub about what percentafje of the eou- striiction of a ship was made up «»f these artic-les upon wh\-h you paid duty? A. — We eonsidere«l ab«Mit ;{(• per e«'nt. (). — You are speaking now in the riiuyh? A. — Yes, I speak in reference to the ship t-handlery work eonneeted with the vessel. y. — And from these facts yoti have mentioned, ship build- int; was comparatively costly at that time, I take it? A. — It was. y. — Did yon f.':ive me the amount of shi]>wriKhts' wa^es in thCe days? A. — It was #5 a day for J) hours and not 10 hours. Q. — You told us you hav»' had experience in Ban Francis- «•<>. ('ould a ve8s«'l (here be const ructeason was, they did so much work there. Q. — You mean there w«'re »uore shi[>s to Ik' built, and a greater denmnd for them? A. — Yes; you s<'e you had to make so much prcparatitm to build a snmll vessel here, that von would incur a larfje expense bef()re vou went to work at all. (i. — Give an illustration of that. What was the first tiling you had to do? A. — We had to jirepare a model. Q. — Was that comparatively costly? A. — The model of h schooner would not cost so mu<-h, but you lost so much time «»ver it. Probably tlu' party wanting the ship would want to see the model, and you would have to wait. As soon as your model was made, you would have to };et some plac«> to draft it out in di>tail at full size, and nnike all your iutnilds. Not havintr much work her(>. you had to do that for everythiiiK you built. When you did all that. |>robably b«>fore anythin*; (>lse came alonv: there wy do not );et probably half the wap's of a ship car|M>ntcr. Some of them do bor- ing, and s<»nie of (hem drive trennels, and over there an ed- ucnted laborer does a ffonil part of the shipbuildiuK work. Q. — Could you tell what (he model of a ship like the "Caroleiiii" wttul'l cost? A. — I do not know that It would 1/7 (■(ml a nvi-M (Ictil foi- licr. I'robiiltiv in iii:ikin{; moulds it would (Mmt |)n»l»al»l,v .'#ir>((.. (j. — ('(Mild voii ^ivc (lie <'(iiiiiiiiHsi(i!iciK tin idcti aH to what vou would luivo to do in IMSt; with rcpird to labour, if .vou (IcNircd to ((inHtruct a scaliiiu Hihotuu r? Wuh It |ioHHiblc to Commissioner on the part of the Knited States: — The examinati(Mi was not for the |iurp(»se of clasHiu}; her? Sir i\ II. Tupper: — Not at all. After the alterations he cal culated the tonnage (To the witness.) t^. — Vou had to lake 3^ the necess;'<'v measiiresmenls in (U'der to calculate the ton naj?e at wh li she slKMihJ Ik- rejristered; is not that so? A. — Yes. (j. — Tlieref(U-e you had to no over that ship lh(M-oU{i;hly. A. — r. I am pretty sure there was somelliinn in that line. ii. — ^She was a complete ship when you befran to measure her? A. — Yes. hhe was litted up very nicely at that time. il. — Was she ready for sea? .\. — I think she was in the hands of the pilots iiere. and she was extra well titled up at that lime. ii. — What style of cabin had she? A. — They were very nice, because tjie pilots lived on lioard of her a f;ood deal. I SO remember taking; notice that she was very nicely litted up. I suppose at that time thev could alford to spend monev on her. H. — She was titled up sjM'cially on account of the jdlots usinn her as a jiilot b(»al? A. — Yes. ii. — You sjiy you look |)arlicular notice of her finish? A. — ^'es, at that lime. II was just after she was fixed u|> thai I measur(>d her. (i. — What W(ml(l you say iis to the lines of the vessel? A. — I could not say much about the lines, but the measure- ^o iiients would show what rise of Ibior she had. I think that would be niven in detail. ti. — tiive us a p-neral descriptiiui of what kind of a looking ship she was. A. — She looked very well above the water, but I do not know that I took any particular notic(> of her \yhen she was hauled up. She had a very (rood deck, and, as I understood, she was well lilted up in the cabin, and there was t^iHid work done (ui her at the time she was rejiaired. 12 « ■\\m f 178 »'M Q. — From your knowlfilp* of th«' "Caroh-nii" aiud yonv kii«)wl«'d}i;«' mid (>x]K'ri«'iii-(' of HliipH ;iii<1 tlu' coiiHtriK-tioii of thfin, wiiiit woulr, an«-horH and rliaiuH and «>v«'rytliinK of that kind. Q. — Wliat wan nhv built of? A. — Douf^laH fir. (J. — Now, did you know tlu' "Tliornton," wliicli bt>lonK<'d lO to tliis port, and wldcli was in tli<> Healing buHincHH? A. — Y«'s, I kn«'w litT. Q. — How did y«»u happen to know that vi-swl? Did you ever repair lier? The CommisHioner on tlie part of the United States: — Are you otTeriuK tliat evid«'ne<' in tliis ea»«', Sir <'liar!es? Sir i\ 11. Tapper: — Tliis witness will n to erosscxaniine the wilncss in the "Tli(«rnton" ease in the lijfht of the testimcmy in the "Thorn- Ion case as it may come in; and we are not prejmred to cross- examine him as to the "Thornton" in the "('anduna.'' Sir ('. H. Tupiter: — I have endeavored (o obtain a eopy of (liese rules, but have not succeeded. My re<'olhction of 3^) them sr, bu( it se«'med to us (hat it would save the time of (he Commissioners as well as the time of the witness to ex- amine him on as many of (hese p'ueral matters us pussiblo. .Mr. I)ickins answer was cornet in so far as it intimated that the main object in examining this witness in rcftard to the "Thornton" was (ha( he should not be i-e- called in (hat case; yet it is i|uite apparent that the evid»nce would be as n'levant to the case of the "Carolena" in re^xi'd 50 to (he values of (hese various vessels as was (tie evidence in re;li. Take the case of the ".May Itelle" and the various other vcsM'ls s]ioken of for the purposes of comparison. The Ciaumissioner on the |»art of the Ciiited States: — I think I correctly express tlie seiitimint of the Commissioners when I hope iliat we shall not liav<- any further detailed ex- amination of witnesses on eidier side as we had in reference to (he "May ISell.." That evidence sliould be in the most general way. (io Sir C. II. Tapper: — I do not at all intend to jj;»» l"t<» very minute particulars in cfi>i-<'n<-<>, I Hnhniil (lial IIiIh cvidrnc*' \h relevant. It may not lie an inipui-taiit feai tare of tlilH caMe, Imt it Ih relevant, particularly in tlie lino of croHH-t'xaniination adopted hy my friends opposite. It U relevant that we should show not merely the vahu of the "Carolena." hut that in support of the diicet testimony in that line we should show what were the valncH of sealing; sehooners piierally at that time. Here we have vessels seized in the very same year as the "Carolena." and it seems to me not at all irrelevant to know what these sister vessels eost, and also };enerally what craft of that description cost in the year in question. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — It would seem to m«' hett -r to keep the in<|uiry separate in resju'ct to the sev»'ral cases, as the fourth rule seems to r«'t|uire. Sir C. H. Tupper: — After the expression of opinion from tlu' Commissioners I shall not insist. I have done with tho witness as far as the "Candena" is concerned. The Conin:isHion«'r on the part of Her Majesty: — It would lie permissiltle to ^et p-neral evidence in this case that would lie applicable to the case of any other anti then transfer it; hut wIh'U it comes to specific evidence relatiuu: to another the i-ases in a way that rule 4 does not contemplate. Sir C. II. Tupper: — I wish now to ask the witiit ss another (piestion. (To witness) t^. — Mr. Walker, are you alih- to sav anythinn'|uir«'d tt» }t»» (111 till' Mt'itliu); voyiifj*'? A. — \'v». I hiiw lit-r, but I w)iH not on Itonrd Ikt. y. — And iiad tdu* not tlu-n Ikh-u «-liauf;i>d wUli rcfi'it'iicc to tin- rabin? A. — I do not know. (2. — Uid mIu' not «1ho liavo a forccaNtlc for tlie iin>n? A. — Not at tlu" tiiiu' I Hurvt'.vcd luT. (J. — Hlio luui no water tanks then? A. — Not at the time I surveyed her. to Q. — Without liarin;; the survey to refer to can you re- nieniber her when you made the survey in IHM4? A. — No, I cannot tell. Q. — I')o you know her widtli? A. — I de])ended altoKeth«'r on tlie figures, i don't remember now. Q. — Wliat was lier tonmifje? A. — I made it 27 tons. Q. — Twenty-seven tons for tlie "Carol»'na." A. — Yes. Q. — Was tluit builder's ineasur* 'n«'nt'? A. — No. r«'f;ist«'r tonnnKe. HIO cubie feet to tli*' ton. Tlie vessel is divided in- t«i sections. 20 Q. — How many cubie feet to the ton in that register? A. — 1(K). g.— Is it not Km? A.— No, Mt(». i.i. — Now, in lfSS2, I think you stated that you had know- h'dge about se-.ilers. When you were engaged in shipbuild- ing you said you knew something about the value of sealers? A.— Yes. We were referring to some of the older vessi'ls that w»'re In-re, and I menti«ined the "Mary Ellen," I did work ners in Vict«iria before ISSfi? A. — I fancy the "W. 1*. Sayward" was built in 18S(i. and she was about tlie (Irst. I think. (2. — Do you know anything about the building of the "(Sracie" and the "Dolphin" here? A — Yes, I know all about that, they were built in the ne.\t yard, and we had the 40 ways at the u]>)ier end of tli(> harbor. (2. — Was there any demand fIl' own HcliooncrH. and liavc tlioni in a Hoi-t of tliat nii^'lit not bo prolitalile. and th(\v were ready to Kcll tlicni to tile first l»uyer wlio would give a fair price. Q. — At San Francisco? A. — Ych, and for that reauon our people tooli advantap' of Hclmonei-H in that position. (i.— The.v did that rifrht alon^'? A.— Ye«. Q. — What wuH tlie niarlvet value per ton at San Fran- cIhco as compared with Vi«'toria, do ,vou know nnythiuK about it? A. — Well, old whoonerH would vary according to what kind they were. Q. — Why do you nay »tld Hchooners? A. — We never saw a new one coming here from San Francisco. Q. — Does a schooner deteriorate in value when it is built of "Orepron pine" or "Douglas flr"? A. — It nnikes a difi'«'r ence somewhere. H. — How much does it deteriorate a year? A. — I do not know if tlien> is any talculation made jier y«'ar. it depends u]Min wliat condition slie is in. Q. — Then an old schooner is not worth so nun-h as a new flne? A. — If you lay a schooner u|» and don't use her, she is worth less than if you use her. Q. — Rut you state that you can buy old schooiMTs dump- er? A. — Yes. Q. — Old San Francisco schooners? A. — Yes. Q. — Now, when they are built of "Douglas fir" at about what age do they begin to get cheaper? A. — W«'ll, say prob- ably during tlw first «'ight years they would not vary or de- teriorate ]ierha|)s as long as they are well taken (-are of. Q. — .\fter that how much would they deteriorate in value? \. — It de]>ends upon h(»w well they hav»' been taken care of, but fhey would deteriorate. Q. — Now, about San Francisco sclio«>n(>rs, from eight years ti 25 or ;{(> years, do you know anything abour the market value j)er ton of San Francisco schoon«>rs here in 'SSS or ISRfi? A.— \o. 4° Q. — You can only tell what it would cost to build a schooner here in Victoria where they did not have the shij) diandlery mat"rial, and where they would have to pay a high j»rice if they did get it. That is all you propose to tell? A.— That is all. Q. — You do not intend to tell the ccmimissioners the market value of a schooner built for sealing purposes in the port of Victoria in ISHo or IHHO? Do you think you have sufficient knowledge to tell that? A. — I never was i)ricing schooners for sealers, but I have heard of bargains being ob- t.iined by going down below. Q. — You have been liere and heard the testimony of the other witnesses as to llu' vabu' of this scli(»oner? A. — No. Q. — You have just come here? A. — .Tust. Q. — You said somelhing about the value of sealing schoon- ers in your direct examiiiatitm. What did you know about the value of sealing schooners in ISSfi, whethei' fhey were built in San Francis.o, or Nova Scotia or in Victoria? A. — It was something less than in the first years I came hero. <3o Tin' wages were down to about $4 a day in 1880. Q. — The wages wen- less in San Francis<'o? A. — Yes. Q. — Would the wages have anything to do here with the )»rice of a schooner built in San Francisco or Nova Sc(»tia of the sanu' class. A. — I do not know that it would have any- thing to do with schooners built there. I understood from l)eople buying s<"liooners there that they I'ways tri«'d to find out a schooner which was engaged in some trade that was M 50 i 1 82 1-1, \iii|>roll(ahl«> iiiiv] llu'H*' ]H*oplf were alwii.VB kUu\ to fii-i rid of llifiii. (i.— TIm" owiumk wi-n- Klad to p-t rid of tlioiii in ISSti? A. Tlit>M«' H<-liooii«'i'K wfi'i- iim-d ill hoiiu* IIiich (liat wt-n* not \niy- \i\K and lli*> |h>o|iI<' Ix-rc wt-rc alwa.VH looking sanio time w«' always conHidtM-od tlu-.v frot tlicni i«>HM than tlu'ir valn«-. Q. — Do ,von know anytliin^ abont tlu- Halt- of tlw "Mar.v lo KIIfMi" in ISSti? A.— Y»'H, hIic niint' hero from Ran Kran- rim'o. ii. — I>o yon know anytliiii!; abont lior sale in ISSfi. A. — I was «)n Itoard of licr whoii sIk' <-aiiit> Iuto. I did sonio work on licr dt'ck. Q. — WiiH kIu' in v«'iy pood condition? A. — Not wry pood rondition. (i. — llow «dd waH nIic? A. — I tliink slu' was vory apod. (). — l>o y«Mi know? A. — I do not know oxarlly. il. — Do yon know anytliinp al>ont In-r Hale in ISStt? A. — 20 I lM-li(>v«> hIic <-lianp<-d IuiiuIh a year or two aft«T kIic canip hero. Q. — I>o yon know llic |>ric«'? A. — No. ij. — Do yon know wliat licr tonnapc was? A. — I Hlionid jndpo abont 7!) *onH or S*> ioun, bnt I ncvtM' ni«>aKni-«'d b«-r. ij. — Slic waH ciiniitiicd witli r«-pidar soalinp boatH? ji.- Sli<> liatl no walinp ItoatH on board wlit-n I wan on li«'r, prod ably at tlio lant HaK* nIio bad, bat tlio first time hIm> <-ani<> licrt' slio bad no Nfalinp IukiIh. (j.— -I am H|H>itkinp abont tlic yoar ISSfi wlion hIio waH H«dd. A. — I bavo no pcrHonal knowb'dpc of that salo. il. — At tliat tinio was hIic not one of the Ix'st boats of lior class? A. — Slic miplit have been in oarly days. (2. — Do yon want ns to nndj'rstand that slio was very (dd? A. — Slic was old. Q. — Was she twonly years old? A. — I do not know wlictlicr sli«> w;»ald be twcntv. bnt sin- was bctwot'n ten and 30 twonty to jinlpo of licr appcarancp. (i. — What were her timbers? A. — I think it was "Orepon 40 ])inc. Q. — Tlie same as 'MJonplas tlr"? A. — T do not know that it was the same. Q.— Is there ;; ditT.rcnce? .\.— There is very little differ en<'e, but we consider our timber aronnd here is better than it is in Orepon. the conditions are better jmuI it is harder limber. Q. — There is a dilTcreiice between tie term nwd by the bnilders here wJien liiey speak of "Donji.'as fir" and of "Ore- 5^ pon jiine? .\. — Yes. Q. — Is not yours a little belter than "American pine .' A. — Mipht I be allowed t, on th • mainland timber that conies from there is not so pood as what prows on the island, for ship-bnildinp purposes, allhoiiph i! is lielter for licnise work, it takes a belter finish. i83 >' . ' • Q, — itiii tlu> OivKon itiiic d«H'H iiut iiiak«> uh valiiiililt' iiiul diiralth' ti Hliip? A. — It Iiiih more ^iiiii Htn'tikH in it. niul in ni.v oiiiiiion nol hu (^immI. (|._II do«'H not ni)il«' ho diiralili- a Mliip? A.— I do not tliiiili it would last quit«> ho lon^- (f._Xor tiH valuald«' a whip? A.— Of courHc. I Hii|)poHi> tin- lonKfi- a Hliip hiHlH tlu' niort* valnaltlo it will he. (j. — Von an* on tlif ntand liiM't- an an rxpi-ricnt-rd Hliip build«-r and Hnrviyor. and I ask .vou to t«'ll nu> wlictlu'r a Hliip lo liiiiit of houKhiH Fir from tliis iatilnd«* in worth more than a sliip ItuiK of (>r«');on Tine? A. — Y«'H. (J. — It will last limp-r, and it in worth nioiv? A. — If IcnKlli of Hi'ivici* Ih taken into eonnidtTalion it in worth more. (^— Yon think the "Favourite" was built here? A. — Yen. Nile was built before I eame here. Q._Hhe was built here? A.— She was built on the Isl- and. Sir t'harles llibbert Tupper; — You w«»uld not let us exam- ine tlie witn(>HH on that. .Mr. Diekinson: — lie in talkinu; about the market for Heiilini; siiips in ISHi), and tliis 's pertinent to the examination. Sir diaries llibbert Tupper: — The learned eounsel is now on a subject that I |iro)MiHed to examine tlie witnt'ss on, but on aei'ount of the d(>(iHion of the Court I did not do ho. Mr. Diekinson: — TIiIh witness spoke in his direct examina- tion of tlie liijili value of ships here, and th«' value of the "Favourite" is therefore pertinent. 30 Sir riiarles llibbert Tupper: — I shall claim the risjht to i'e-<'xamine the witnesH verv full.v as to all the veH8«'lH he in asked about. The ( Commissioner lo re-examination all the v«-8sels asked about. The ('omiiiissioner trying; to disprove a disputed sifiiiatnre by k'<> evidence about another disputed si;;- 4*^ natun>. I liardly think this is a fair subject for croaH-exami- nation. Tlie Commissioner on the jiart of Her Majesty: — 1 do not think it is mat«-rial to tli(> issue in tliis case. The Commissioner on the jiart of the I'nited States: — Will you kindly re state the question, Mr. Dickinson? .Mr. Dickinson: — This is a i|uestioii jiredirated upon the lestinioiiy of tliis witness telling; your ironours about the 50 scarcity of sealiufr vessels and the demand for them, and the value IxM-ause of that scarcity, in ISSti. The "Favourite" is naiiicd in tlu' case here, but the claim is not based on ber value at all. Kven if it were. I submit that I can >:o into this evidence. My understandinK is correct, Mr. Peters, that you make no claim for the value of the "Favourite?" Mr. Tetcrs: — rnfortunately not. Go (Crosscxaniination by Mr. Dickinson continued): (i.— You did know the "Favourite" in IHSfi? A.— Yob. (■]. — Have you b«'en on her? A. — Oh, yes. Q.— What is she built of? A.— She is built of Douplaa Fir. H. — That is the pood timber around here? A. — Yes. (i- — Hitrht here cm the Island? A. — Yes. Q.— Did you know that the "Favourite" was sold in ISSfi? A. — She changed hands, but I do not know anythinsi about the sale. ii!!f 1 84 «« \l (j. — 1H«1 ,v*Mi kiKiw iiiivtliiii^' iiImmiI the vtiliiiilioii hh hIic rliiiiipMl IdiiiiIk? a. — No, I
  • nut. (/. — Slu' wiiH ohi. A. — V«'H. li.— Ah ithi )iH tin- "Mm-.v Klh i?" WIIH <|llitl' IIH (llll IIH till' "Mlll-.V Kllt'll. (j. — WiiH hIm> ill ^immI iniHlitioll; -I tlo not lliiiik hIic A. — YcH, lis fill- IIH I know. Hill' litid Im'cii wrll k«-i»l iiiiil rc|>iiircil fritiii liiiif to linic. Q. — N«»w wliiit WIIH till* toiiiiti);(> of tlic "Fiivoiiritt'" in k«mm1 lO coiiilitioii IIH hIii> WIIH iiiid iiuiili' of tliin nouKliiH Fir? A. — I liiivi' not colli' llii-oii^li lirr. (j. — Voii liiivi' Ih'I'Ii on licr, iinil von liin h:iv iiltoiit wliiit lift' tonna^i' wiih? A. — I hIioiiIiI hiiv niii' w:ih prohiililv T'l or m tonn. (i.- And if voM viiiiic tiir "t'lunicna' Itnilt of Oiofjon I'iin- nl f4,tMM». wliiit would von vnluf tlu' "Fiivonritr" at in ISSti. hIh- iM'iiifi SO Ions? A. — I nrvcr wiih railed in to viiiiu' lii-r. I iiiii of till' o|iinion tliat at that tinii' tlu'i-«' were new top Hides put on the "Favourite." and of coiirHe that would add verv 20 iiiiiih to her coHt. If that wan done after the partv lioiit;ht her it would make a material ditfereme in lier value an to wlietlier that was done before or after nhe wan Hold. (/. — Von Hav that to tlie Itest of _vonr knowiedp* the "t'aro- leiia" wiiH worth f4,(llM» i:i ISSCi? "a.— Afl»'r the nitaiiH? (i. — As ,voii examined her and eertith-d her? A. — Yei (.}. — What wiiH the "Favourite" worth'; after the repairnV -Itefon (H' Q. — After tlie repairn? A. — 1 Hhoiild hii.v neven or «'i(;ht tlionsand dollarH. 30 ^l- — And Hlie wan ei>»htv tons, and Itv the Hunie meiiHiire- iiient the "t'aroiena" wan twenty neven toiiH? A. — I eannot Hpeak about the nieasiirement of the "Favourite," beeiiiiHC I never iiieaHiired her, but I ean speak altoiit the "t'aroleiia," for I ineaHiired her. Q. — Did ,vou Htate the "Favourite" waH 7t» or St( touH? A. — •Iud};int; from her appearaiu-e. i}. — What meiiHiirement do .vmi refer to? A. — I have not even wM-n her registry, but jud{;iiig from lier appenranee; that is all I ^o by. 40 Q- — Have .vou meiiHured the "Caroh na. try' A.— Yen !7 tons, for rejjin- SO 60 Q. — .liidfjinti b.v tlii' a])peiiran<-«> of the "Favourite," wliat would be her measurement in toiinap'? A. — Iletween 70 and SI) tonn; tliat is from her appearance. The f'ommiHHioni'r on the part of lier Majesty: — Do I un- derstand that the witness knew Hiinicieiil of the "Favourite" to ('.xjH'ess an opiniim of her value? Mr. Peters: — He has not elaimed that. \\r. Dickinson: — He has been on her, and stated that if she was in the condition he thoiif;lit she was, and if she was in i;ood re]iair, she would be worth .¥7.(lickinson continued): U. — Do you remember the schooner "Ivate?" .\. — There ts one here now; is it tlie same schooner? in I85 (j._I do not know, hiil I iiihIc'I-mIiiihI hIk- lu'loiiKcd (u out- i»f tin- HpriiiKH. A. — Vt'H. I know tlw Heliuoiu>r. g. — NVIial alMtiit wiih Ium- (iiiinti((<- in IMSO? A. — I Hlunild not think hIic wiih tinitc 118 largi* hh tlii> "Kavunritf." (j.— Atxint liow nincli? Till or til) tiuiH? A. — I hIumiIiI hu.v ;')() or tiO tonH. g. — WlnTf waH Hill' Iniilt? A. — I fani-.v il wnH np north Im'M'. g.— Miiilt of UonithiH Fir? A. — No, tlieiv wan .v»'llow «HMlnr in Inr, I Diink. g. — An- In-r tiinbt'i-H .vcllow ci dar? A. — I do not know, i'lit tlH'H' waH ,vt'llo\v rcdar in Ih-i' d«'|»air hIm* woh wot-tli in ISStt ahont how nnirh? A. — Hlic waM not w»»Hh vcrv ninrh at that tinu', bnt nhi' wnH «'lian);o .von rt'ni«'nib«>r about tlic "Th«)rnton" and th«' "On- ward" iM'inp; for nali' iM'rc in IHSli? A. — 1 boli«'vo that wan aliont till' tinu* IIm* owner of one of tlieni died. (2. — Wan hIic for nalo tlion? A. — YeH, I believe 8he woh put np for Hnle. (i. — And the "Thornt«»n" also? A. — I am not nwnri* of the "Thornton." Q. — Yon do not remember that? A. — No. (J. — I>o ,voii remember that tlie "Anini Heek" wnn put up for Kale in tiiat year? A. — I knew the Hch(M)ner, but I do for HJiie. I knew ,0 uot know anything about her beiuK put up the Nchooner "Anna Heck" well. 40 50 60 (i. — Was the "\Y. 1'. Say ward" thnt you have Hpoken of put up for Hale in 188(i? A. — Hhe t-hanged bnndH Roniewhere about that time. (j. — Yon do n«>t know anything; about the prit-e that wan paid for her? A. — No. (i. — Ho you remember that the "tJraeie" and the "Dolphin" were sold in IHHCi? A. — I do not know, but I do not think it \\i\H a ]iubli<- Hale. Q. — >Yli«'n you tentitied an to the value of shipn in ISSfi yon were not very familiar with vt'HHeln that wew sold In that year, wew you. or familiar with their pricoH? A. — No. (.}. — It wan not part of your bUHineHH to keep poHted an to the Hah'H? A. — i'nlesH junt cnminK in contaet with thone wlio were buying and were juM-Honnl friendn of mine. (y — You liave no npecial oppoi-tunitit h to find out tlie prices of the HjileH? A. — Not unlesM I was called in to make n val- uati(m. Q. — \Ver«« you called in in ISSfi to nmke a valuation of any of thcHe Hchoonern? A. — No, not of any of tbcHe Hchooners. Q. — So that not havinj; niad«' intjuiries, or not having been cnlh'd in to Hurvey or entimate you do not know what the valuation of sclioonera in 1^80 was? A. — \Vell, only hear- iuR about what they cost. Q. — .\nd your knowliKlpe of the cost conicB from the oRti- mate of the labor and the cost of buildini; here? A. — Yes. Ke-exaniined by Sir Charles Ilibbert Tuj»iter. Q. — Mr. Walker, are you Interested in any of the v«>s»els for whi<'h claims ar«' beinit made here? A. — No. Q. — Are vou interested in nnv of the claims hen*? A. — No. Q. — Had you on any occasion to examine either the * Fa- vorite" or the '-Kate" as you had to examine the "rarohnn"? A.— No. til f 186 »-Ih lhoro .von know wln'tlicr n>|i)iirH wort' put u|M»n tin' "Kiitc" nftcr hIio rani«> hcrt'? A. — Hlu- waH n'pain'd on llic walor, lln-n' w«'r«' top HidcH put on In-r. I lii-llcvt'. and Hcvcnil otluT ln'av,v rcpaii-M. Q.— Hlu' waH icpaii-«>d from tin- wat«'r rinlit up? A. — Yen. (i.— Mr. DifkiuMon ivferrt-d to tlu- "Ada" I think, do you know that Ht-hoonor? A. — Y»'h. (i. — You wort' hiTo when hI»' arrivi-d at tliiH port from .?;'(»an? A. — Yi-h, I waH on l>oard h«'i". (i. — >Yhat wiiH hIm' worth? A. — I «-onHid«>r«>d h»'r a flr»t- fhiHH Hcliooncr, uhc waH tiniHhi-d in teak wood, wliii-li in a m«>Ht coHtl.v wood. Q. — What WHH lier build? A. — Slu* was a achooniT. 20 Mr. DickiuHon- — I did not a^k him ".\da." an.vtiiing silHxit th<> 30 40 Hir <'liarl«'H Tu]»p«'r, ,v "Misclii«'f" wa« r>S tons n'jjiHtcr. Q._W)H.n did v«Mi buy timt vi'hsoI? A.— In 1S!)2. Q.— IIow old waH hIic? A.— 81n' was built in IHSti. Q.— What would hIh- tont in ISHG? A.— It was (•(•nsidcn'd about f 1(MM)0 with the nuK-hint-ry. (Re-cross-examined by Mr. Dickinson): (J. — What kind of a 8hi|» was that, was she n steam sliip? A. — Hlu' was an auxiliary jtropeller. (i. — Where was she built? A. — Hlie was built in Yakima at the n nth of the Columbia river. Q. — W (J she tltted up with sails as well as steam? A. — Yes. Q. — IHd she seal? A. — Yes. until she was orden'd home. Q. — Did she sro seaiinp? A. — Yes. Q._WlH.re? A.— On the I'acitlc Poast. Q._When wap that? A.— In 1H02 or ISO.I. Q.— Did she do any sealing in IKSfi or 1SS7? A.— No. Q. — You stated to Wr Charles Tapper that yon were not Interested in these matters at all. and \t\ you state n<»w that vonr ship was ordered out of Rehrin*? Sea for sealinfr? A.— Yes. (Ry Sir CharleK Tapper): Q. — I asked the witness if he had any interest in tiie claim. (To witness): You have no int«'rest in any claini here? A. — Not in anv claim here. .And the above named witness. Walter Walker, was re- Go called. (Examined by Mr. Peters) : Q. — Is that the original document that you nctmUly made uj> with reference to ih<' "Carolena"? A. — It is. Q. — I se«' th«'re are two documents here. A. — Y«'s. the one sets forth the 0);nres on which I based my reports of the surveys. I iiiiKlit explain that I wns not appointed to the 50 i»7 onir*- nl Uiiil tiiii*' iiii«l «ll«l uol liiivc llif n'Kular r«inii>); I illd Mill lmv<> IIm> oniriiil HttitioiM-r.v iiiid w» I iiitult' up Hint |ta|H>r IIIVHOlf. V^.—Yoii U'U (IiIh •toriihit'iit at llu- CiiMtoiii iluiiHf? A.— V«'H. g._Y wau «-oIli'ct«»r «»f t-iiH- toiiiM? A.— Yen. l('rnHH«'xaiiiin<>(l l>y Mr. DickiiiHou)- lo g. — tIh' ki'^hm toiiiia|;t> 3011 put in at 211? A. — Yea. Q. — Anil you allowrd for tlii' |HM)p «>r caliin ^.'.W touH? A. iy — Thi-ri" wart n<» olln'r i-IohciI Hpacc in hi'r? A. — 'Sow. y.— Tiiat Ih hIii' hail no oIIum- i-ni-lowd Hpac*- I'xri'pt tln> niliin? .\.— Yi-M. 1 cxplainitl tliat l).v cxplaiiiinf; tin* rIaMH of IxiHini'HH Mill' waH in; hIh' waH um'd h.v pilotH. (j.— And llu' total tonnap', ini-lndinp tlio rnbin is 27.:tli? A.— Yi'8. (j. — .\nd till' width .vou Htati- lii'i-t^ of lit fi'i't Ih oiitHid«> <»f 20 plankinp;, i« it not? A.— Yoh, it In ontHidv of tlu' piankinK', il is 1G5 fot't. Mr. IMi-kinHon: — I wish to know, Mr. IVtorH, what pa]N>rH von arc ;;oinK to put in. Mr. Pi'tcrH: — T1h> dornnicnt I propose to put in Ih thi> iMiildir'H cfrlifliatc, dati'd the Ifttli of .\pril, 1HS4. I propow' to put in a i-iMilHi'd fopy of tho* ;ih '•exhibit II. O R, Tar- oli'na' raw." 30 Till' t'xaniinafion of tlu' aluivo nanti-ii witncHH whr rloR«>d. 40 CyO Ali'xandi'r Watson, Jr.. of tin* I'il.v ol Virtoria, Hliip liuild- i-r, a witni'HH produi-*'d on bi-lialf of Ilcr Maji'sty, bcinn ArHt duly Hworn, tcnliticd: Kxiiniinod by Mr. l>i(>qui>: Q. — Mr. >VatHou, what is your occupation? A. — Ship- wright. (i. — How lon;j have vou been occupied in that buHincHH? A.— Hincc 1S74. (J. — ()»■< your own account? A. — No. not lately. 0. — You wi'ri' appri-ntici'd to that trade? A. — Y^es. Q. — IIow lontf have you be<'n workinu on yonr own nc- coiint? A. — 1S^»I^ waK the tirnt job I took on my own ac- count. Q. — WiXH your fatlcr in the sanio businesH? A. — Ych. Q. — And wer.' you working with him for Hevernl yenrK? A.— Yes. Q. — I Ruppone yon have a good deal of experience in the value of vcHHelrt A. — Well. F have be<'n working at them all that time, it is all the work I have done. Q. — What Ih the clasH of vesKel that you have conKtructed jirincijmlly? A. — Mostly <«teainers. I have worked on silioonerH and built HchoonerH. (i. — IIow many vefselB Inne you built? A. — Do you mean uiyHcIf? Q. — Yi'H, or work-^d on the building of them? A. — I have worked on vesh-lp of 300 tons. Q. — Did you know (he Taroli'na"? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you ever do any worK on the 'Tarolpna"? A. — I worked on her once. I tidnk. Q. — When was it? A. — ^Yhen she was repaired after coming into collision with a steamer coming into Victoria harbor. I'O li !•!« 30 188 Q. — For wimt jHirjiosi' wnn hIio u8 )iosltivo on that. (2. — In what .voar was it about? A. — 1 cannot fjivo it to .von t'xartlv. bin it was about IHH'2 ov ISH'A. ii. — |>i(l .VOJi sec her oiit of the wat«T tlu-n? A. — Yt'S. (}. — Had you occasion thon to wo in what conditioi' slu> was? A. — Y«'8, wo cotild st'c pretty w«'ll what she was like. Q. — Had yon any «)<-4asion to form an opinion as to her vahu'? A. — Well, I conld see what the vessel was like, but lo dinion as to lier value at that time. (i. — Hut from the knowledge that yon then ae(|nired of the vessel w'cit would you estinnite her value to be then? Well, of course the value varies, but I e(Mild pve y? A. — Y«'s, the mat(>rial and lab^r and other matters. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing. i). — Mr. Watson, are you a shipwriirht now? .\. — Y<-s. sir. i]. — And at the time you rejiaiicd the "Candena" in 1SS2 or 1SS:t you stated that she laid been in i think so. Q. — With what vessel, do you know? serves me ri{;ht it was tlu> "North Pacific." Q. — Wai< tlu' schoon»'r sunk? A. — So. Q. — You kn«tw that she was not sunk? aot think so. 40 Q- — ^^ "** *•'"' '"••lly danmged? A. — \ot very badly damajjcd, but she had her bow knocked out. Q.— Was it in the side? A.— No, into the "N'riat 'xainination. Q. — Wliat did you tix your valuation of |4.t)()l) on? A. — Just (in (lie general value of vchsoIh. lo Q. — l>o you tliink from your knowl)d};<> of tin- "farolcna' \ou ar*> able to tix a valuation «>n that vtsHcl? -Do you iisk nil' if I think inyNflf <-oni]H't*'nt; if so, that is hardly a (|ii*-stion for inc to answer. I think I am from my know- Icdfjc. t^. — On what knowhdj;*' do you base your oi»inion? A. — On licinf; around schooners and working; on them. (i. — Did you evrr buy a vei ? A.— Y( il. — Did you ever sell one? A. — Ves. I so!d the one I made under contrael. :o t^.— What did you sell her for? A.— For about #2,St»ll, the |iart I made. ti.— How mueli was her entire value? A. — I did not build the whole vessel, but cmly the bare lower part, without tlt- linjjs. ait. -W e re- 30 i-i. — What did the owner do then? .\. — The owner tinished her. of course. (}.— What did you build of that vessel? .\.— I built the bare hull without any tiltiiifis and without any iron wls; it was only hearsay, of coiii'se. (Kj (J.- -Von t know of a sin(ile sale «>f a vessel in these yinis? A. - No, there mijrht have been sales but I don't know anvlliiuf: about then). (i. — Do you know of any vessels built from 1SS4 to 1SS7 inclusive? .\. — Y»'S, I think there were S(»iiie vesstls built in tliat linio. H^TW- - • T ■" T » ▼ 190 30 jiositivi' as to tlit'ir iininoti. but I thJnk the "Onuio" and the "Wa.vward"' wci'e built then. Q. — The "fJnu'ie was built bofoio that? A. — IVrhaps she waH Init I cannot say. Q. — Do .vou know of any bidH beinji made for Healiu}; ves- sels in that time? A. — Not positlvc'ly; I may have been giv- ing bids myself but I oould nt)t be certain. <}. — ^'ou have no recollection of any being made? A. — I 10 would n( t swear to it. IJ. — And your knowledge is the knowledge of what it would cost to build that vessel? A. — Yes, I know what it would' cost to build her. (i. — ^^'llat would it have «ost to have built a vessel like the "Carolena" in 1S86? A. — You would liave to give me tin* siie() y«»u know her breadth? A. — No. 20 Q- — 1*0 .vou know her dei)tli of hold? A. — \o. <.}. — Do you know anything about Ikt in particular? A. — I have set n her l)ut I did not measure her. Q. — IIow could you fix your valuation, then? A. — I mean her tonnage. Q. — >Vhat was her tonnage? A. — ;15 t«ms, as I understand. Q. — How much did it cost to buibl this .'{5 ton registered tonnage vessel? A. — Al)()ut ';!!)(I0 odd dolliir.s. Q.— Was that in 188(5? A.— Yes. The average vessel might run higlu'r and they might run lower; it all depends on (he class of vt'ssel. Q. — And if she was only 27 tons register, what wotild yon say she was worth? A. — She would be worth lower. {}. — And if you were told the "Carolena" was '27 tons regis- ter, what would you say her valn«> was then? A. — I would have to figure that out. Q. — Well, figure it out, on your own opinion. The < "ommissioner on the jmrt of the United States: — There must be some mistake about that. I n«>tice the surveyor says she was '27 tons and the register says she was 'M tons. Ml'. I'eters: — I think we should recall Mr. Walker as to (ha(; (he old registry was wrong and he rcduct'd her. The ComniissioiU'r on (he |!ar( of II«'r Majesty: — Mr. Walk- er said here (hat she was 27 tons, and it struck me as strang*? (ha( aft»'r they had lengthened her she should be less than she was Ix'fore. Cross-examinadon by Mr. Lansing con(inued: 50 (i- — How iniicli do you say the value would be? A. — |;{,:{7ri; (ha( is, allowing she was a good average vessel. Tlu' Commissioner on (he par( of (he I'liKed S(a(es: — Did you (igure on (he registered tonnage? A. — Yes, the regis- tered. (Ity Mr. Lansing): il. — That is what it would ? A. — Yes, an averiige vessel. C)0 lie-examined by Mr. 1artnerHhip with? A. — Well, first ((> a small t'xtent I did some work with Mr. Turpel. Later on I was in business with .Mr. Warner. Q. — Are you now engagi'd in ship-building? A. — 1 am now engaged as Suju'rintendent of the Marine Railway at Ksquimalt. (i. — How long have you been engaged in that? A. — Some- thing more than a year. Q. — Since you have been in Vict(»ria have j'ou actually built sealing schooners? A. — I have. Q. — I do not wish t»» go into the nature of th«' vessels in dispute, so I will take th«> names of the vesels y(»u have built. Did you build the Dolphin? A— I built the Dolphin as master workman. Q. — You were superintendent of the building of the Didphin? A.— Yes. Q. — Did yerience in Nova Scotia and N'ictoria in building vessels? .\. — Yes. Q. — (1en<'rally s|)eaking T want to ask you. how does the expense of building a sliip in Nova Scotia compare with 192 >fi\ buildiiiK hi'i' lu>i-i>? 1h it iiiiit-li Ki'*'>>tt'i' l>(>r«>, or iH it 1«>hh iu Xova Hfotiu? A. — It iH iiiufli less in Nova Scotiu. (2. — Talit' out' item onl.v, tin* (|iu>Htiou of wa^i'H; wluit are tilt' oitliuarv want's of Hlii|) farju'iittMH in Xova St-otia? A. — In Nova Kcotia we pa.v tlieni about |l.r»() jht day. Q. — And wluit is tlu' ordinary wa{?es you pay liere? A. — At preHent it in |:{.r)0. Q. — And goiuK ba»k ten yearH af;o wliat was it? A.--f4.()W ii. — So tliat of itself, must malie a larjie diir«'ren«*e n tlie lo price «)f a vessel, it would make a vessel built in Vict(H-ia mueli dearer than a vessel built in Xova S«-otia? A. — Yva. Q. — The pric»' of luuiber is very much higher here than it is in Xova Hcotia I supjiose? A. — Yi's, much higher iu Victoria. Q. — Is there much difference iu the price? A. — In pen- eral lumber in tlu' east costs about fS.OO jter tliousand feet, as far as I renu-mber; and lier(> it costs perhsips l|>lli.OII I speak »»f course fr«»m memory. We used to l»uy our lumlter in Xova Scotia by the ton, and it cost about f.*{.((0 jter ton, 20 limber measurement. Q. — And here it would cost you about double that? A. — Here we buy it by the thousand. Mr. I>ickius(m: — .\re you sis-akinj; of '2ii years ajio when you ivfer to this nuitt»'r? A. — I am spi'akiu); of when I lived there, and I know nothing; aliout it since. Ily Mr. Peters. (J. — You know this. Mr. Smith, that at the present tiiue you can buy these schooners cheaper in Xova Scotia than v«»u can here; is not that a fact? A. — Yes, 30 Sir. ii. — And that as a fact in 1SS(! and 1S^7 this was also the ciise? A. — Yes, so far as I know. Q. — You are aware of tlie fact that a larjre number of schooners have been imported from X<»va Scolia here for the purpose of seal flshiiig? A. — I am. Q. — Quite a large proportion of the sealing fi«>et are XoAa Scotia vess<'ls. are they n(tt? A. — Large pro]iau? A. — Y«'8. (i. — Xow. Mr. Smith, I believe you know a g(M)d many of the vessels of the sealing Hiet? A, — I do. Q. — And amongst others you hav«' seen the "Caroleiia?" A. — I have seen the "('arolensi,'' no doubt. I know her by name, but I never had anything to do on or about the "Caro- leiia;" and individually, as a vessel, I do not know anything about her iu detail. Q. — Do you know enough about her t<» valiU' her? A. — 50 \(,t on her particular mi'rits; only so far a« my knowledge goes (Ui vessels geiu-rally. Q. — Your knowledge of the value of vessels has be«'n large, and if a vessel (►f the size of flu' "Carolena" was olTercd for *4,(MI(> in 18H(i, what would you say? Mr. Dickinson: — .Vre you going into this kind of evidence? HIr V. H. Tupper: — Certainly; it is perfectly relevant. (To witness): I ask you what was she worth in ISSO? A. — 60 What was the tonnage? Q. — The tcnuage is in dispute. It was about ;$1 tons. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not want to take up any time, but my conscience pricks me when I hear incompetent testimony given ill without my making objection. I have endeavoured t(» keep <|iiiet under the )ieciiliar circumstances under which this testinumy has bt^-u given in. It does seem to me that 20 193 litis JM K"'>>K litlh* Ik-viiikI wlnit t-oiild liy llio wHdfHt stn'trli of iiiiiipiatioii lit> «-iillviinl Icslinionv. TIk> \vitii«>HS KfiitcH liiiiiH<-lf lliiit Ih' knows iiii(liiii}j; iilxiiit the vjiIik' of the '•(".irolciiii" wliatcvcr. iiiid would not know licr b.v si}ilil nn- IcsK he read Iut niinic How ran lie he i'xaniincsH| Von wt-r.- [d'csmt in Conrt licrc and licaid tiic 'Tarolcna" di'Kciili»'d lt,v tin- dif- fiTcnt wUin-ssrs, were vou not? A. — Yrs. I have licard the vv\dvnvv. Sir. DifkiiiHon: — Then wi- art- cntitU'd lo liavo tin- liypotlu' liis put tu tlic witncsH. (F<].\aniination continncd h,v Mr. I'cttrs): (i. — Fiom vour knctwlcdp' of the valncs of vi'sscis alxint 1SS(> in lliis I'onntry. and taking a vessel of about .'{0 Inns, of tlie desei'iption yon have heard liere of tlie "Candena" from Afr. Itobinson and other witnesses about wliat she would lie w-pel. in your opinion what would she have broufjht? The CommiHsioner on the |»art of Her Majesty: — Assiimin;>: Mr. I{obinson'.s testimony to be correct Mr. Peters: — Certainly. The Commissioner on the part of Iler .M;ijrsly:— I think you should put that in the i|ueslitMi. *l. — Well, yon have heard Mr. Itobinson's evidence as to the ;ien<'ral condilion the vessel was in. aixl can you state from that, assnniinji it was correct, what her valiu' was? .\. — I have not heard from the evidence yet whether she was a metal-fastened vessel. The Commissioner on (he part of the riiiled Slates: — Mr. Peters, do you think you can fjjain aiiythiiifj: by ttivin}i; evi deuce of this kind? Ho you think it will impress the Com missioners at all. even if you fj;et it? Mr. Peters: — I hope it will have Kime elTcct. your IbuKnir. Here is a man ennaned .'{ri years in this particular business, a man of lar(;e experience, and I lo as II friend of mine did, sit up all night to form a hypt>thet- 13 li ;t 50 60 'I«f 1 1 I ' 194 iral <|iii'Mti4)n, and then liav(> it rultMl oat of foiirt tlic flrHt tliintr in tli<> ni<»rninK- Tin* witncHH at on«-t> miggeHtH (lie dif- HiMilt.v bv liiH an8w«T. Mr. IVtt'i'K: — I li«v«' now tlu' artuiil m« nsnri'nipnts of Mr. Walli«'r'H Hurv«',v. made on the lOtli day of April, 1HS4 It waH niiHiaid wlien Mr. Wall^cr wan under examination. (To wilneHs): Q. — Take the comnninication of Mr. Wallier'H (■erti(l«-ate of HUKvey now in yonr IuuhIh, and aHNumiuK it to 10 l>e a corn'ct certificate of her nieaKUi-ement, wlmt wnnhl you Hay aH to her value at that time? The ComniiHHioner on the jiart of the United States: — Does that state her ajje and the fact that she was rejjaired in 1884? Mr. Peters : — That is stated «m tlie certificate, I understand. The Witness: — 1 nm not able to ^ive the value of ihat ves- sel of my own knowledge. I cannttt by any means make it out even satisfa<"tory to myself. I never saw her, but I ima};- 20 ine the ve8s«'l would be worth about |:{,li(K) or f.'{,7(M(, or sonie- thint; about that. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — What is that jmper, Mr. Peters? Mr. Peters: — When this vessel was lent^thened it was sup- posed to change her tonnn^^e. There was then a survey made to have a i»roper entry made in the registry of the shiji. When this re-measurement was made it was found that .here must have been some error in her orijjinal measuremenrs. I 30 do not know how it occurred. Tliis certificate of Mr. Walk er's was fil«'d in tlie Customs Hous<'. This is the survey on which it was intended to base the corre«*tion on the register. This is the origiHal document whicli was filed there. The Commissioner on tlie jiart of Her Majesty: — Did you get it from the custom house? Mr. Hodwell: — It comes from the collector's otflce here, and by reason of the fac t that her m«'asurement was not increased .Q no change was made in tlu* registry. The Commissioner lcase read tlie h'ngtli, breadth, depth, tonnage and agi- of the "Carolcna," as sluiwn *ni that pajier? Mr. I'et, i;(i; poop or cabin, l.;{tJ; total, 27.:{(;. Mr. Walker then certi- lies to these and states (hat (he schooner is pro])erly marked, the jdace where she is registered mirked p'aiiily on her stern, and tliiit everything is in accordance with ilie .Merchants Shijiping Act. .\niiex<'d to that document are the figures y- upuii which the measurements are made up. The Commissioner on the part of tlii> Fnited States: — Does vour (|uestion to the witness fairly state the case? Does 'oiir ((uestion state that she was relmilt lier«' and built in the Territory of Washington as long .-is 2(» or 27 years ago? Should not those go in to a hypotheticiil ipiestion to the wit- ness? '95 Mr. I'dt'i-H: — 1 iiiMli'i-Htootl Ihiit (lie dtih' of Iwr biiildiii); wiih III tin* ci'HIflriili'. >V«' fdiitt'iiil (liiit hIic wiih pi-ai-tinill.v im'- hiiilt in 1SS4, practiciill.v making; Iut a iii'w Kliip. Till' ('(HiiiiiiHKioiicr on the part of the Tniti'd Stati'M: — 1 mil your attention to tluw facts ho that .von will lie able to jiidp- whether ,voiir exainiiiation so far will have aii.v wei};lil on the iiiindH of the Court. Mr. I'elerH: — It Is open to that remark. (To the witniss): 10 (^. — You have no interent, I believe, in these elainiH? A. — No. Tlie further exaniinalioii of the witneHs wan postponed. The ('oniniisHioner on the part of the I'nited States: — \t Iudf,'e Kinn'w re(|uest I will state on behalf of the Coin- missioners that we will sit td-inorrow until 1 oVIoek, and not resume in the afternoon. This will f,'ive the clerks an (>p]»or- tuiiity of clearin}j ujt the work. 20 The Cunimissionei-B then rose. 'liytli 30 CommissionerB nnder the Convention of February 8, 1896, between Oreat Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 5, 1896. At 10:;{0 a. in., tin? Commisionors took their seats. The examination of the witniss Samuel McCullougli Sniitli was resumed. Mr. Dickinson declared that he had no cross-examination to make. 40 The examination of the witness closed. Mr. Peters: — A few da.vs ago Mr. Mniisi<> was cross-ex- amined by Mr. Dickinson, and in the course of his cross- examination Mr. Dickinson asked him with regard to the original articles of ]iarfnershi]» lietween Mr. ('arin> and Mr. .Mniisi(>. We have found the articles of )>artners]iip, and 1 now liaiid them to my learned friend for his examination. Mr. Miinsie is here, if Mr. Dickinson wants to ask him about Ihem. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not think I nsk(>d the witnes about 5° that. I gave you u notice and you thought you did not have tliem. Mr. Peters: — That was a written notiei' that my h-arned friend gitve me; and I answered that I thought it was in Mr. Munsie's iiossession. Hut in the course of examination he was asked with regard to the articles of partnership. 6o Mr. Dickinson: — Not by me. Mr. JMers: — If yoii do not want them it is all right. !'> Orlando Warner, of the city of Victoria, a. witiK'ss pro- duced OH behalf of ller >Ia,ji'8ty, was duly sworn. ly6 V ;1 20 30 40 so 60 Exaiiiini'd It.v Mr. P«'t«'r8: Q. — Mr. Wurtier, wUI you tell luo wht-ro joii rt'slde? A. — In Vifturitt. Q. — How long hnv<' .von Ikh-ii In NMctoria? A. — 2ri vt-ara. (i. — What is ,voiir occupation? A. — Hliipwripht. Q. — How lonjj havt' you bi'i-n in that buHincas" A.- ;U y»'ar8 or '>i'2 ywu-B. y. — Wlu'rt' did you ln-jjin that buaincHH? A. — In Pug- wasli, Cuinbcrland i-oiinty. Nova Scotia. Q. — Were you «>nip]oy«>d ns a niaatcr builder tliciv? A. — Xo, I wa» a journeyman. Q. — After you left Nova Scotia did you foiiu' directly here? A. — Xt), Hir. I stopped in Hau F'ranciHco one year. Q — Did you follow the HhipwriRlit buHines.> tlure' .\. — No, sir, I !uid nothinj; to do with it there Q. — You came to Victoria some 25 vears -lij.) I think? .\. Ves. Q. — Since that tinu> have you been occupied In the ship- wright business? A. — More or less, whenever there was any- thing In the town to do in that business. Q. — WiTe you connected with Mr. Smith who pave evi- dence here yesterday. A. — We were jtartners in the Star sliipyard. s was she? A. — She was S.l tons, I be- lieve. Q. — And you had the contract for d<»lng what on her? A. — I had the contiact of the hull and spars, without doing any of the cabin work or tlie forecastle; and I had to furnish no steering gear. I furnished her with one top mast, but not ti fore-to)) mast. The main top mast I had to furnish, and I laid tlie sjtars alouizside lier alloat in tlie harbor. a. — That is. you liad not to pl:ice tlie spars? A. — Xo. sir. Q.— What was the price for that work? A.— I to«tk the contract at l.'i.rtfM), a luiii]) sum. Q. — Was that a good contract or a bad contract? A. — Well, it was nothing to brag of. T made nothing on it. (i. — Tlie whole of the fiiiishiiig had to be done afterwards? A. — It was done afterwards by the owners. Q. — Her sails and ligglng and everything «'lse <'onipl«'te? .\. — I did not furnish any sails or rigging of ai'v description. It is generally termed hull and s])ars, with tli's little s|M>cial (irovision that the owners thought they woul i get some n«'w itrranu;eiuent foi' a steering gear, and It was h'ft for them to jirovlde. Q. — I need iLirdly ask you whether the additional wcu'k that had to be done I0 that ship Iwfore she would be tit to go to sea would cost a coiisiderahle sum? .\. — My impres- sion is that it would cost c(Misiderable. lO •97 Q. — ran y«)ii Kivf in*- nii Ulva of whul il wouhl i-imt, foiiipiir- \n^i it with the i-imt of tin* worlv ,vou «!i lift>n ii8f«i tu tlKuriiij; on vchmcIh, W(> cnll (lie hull and hiuii-h, two- Ihii'dH alxnit «if tlic cont «tf a vt'Hwl n-ady for H«'a. not titl«Ml out for till' Hfalin^ biiMinc'HH, hut fur ordinary iiurpoHeH. (^. — And tliat wan in what yi-ar? A. — Tliat wan iu tin- win- lt>r of ISiHI and tlic HjtrinK of IHJM. (j. — I am not K^in^ to nnk you »» to tlie "Dolphin" bi't-auw' Hilt' Ih in diHputc h«M-t>; but It't nu> ack you: IHd you know tht* "Caroli'ua"? A. — Vi'h, »ir. Q. — Did you »'v«'r do any w«»rk on tlw "Carolina"? A. — I did a lit t If! il. — Do you rcnit'Uibcr what tinic it wan wlnn you did that work? A. — I do not Hay anytiiinK with ropird to (he "far- olcna, ' in Ih ho lon^; ago. (i. — <;an you t«'ll nic who wan tlu' owner of tin- "tJar- olcna" tln'n? A. — I cannot nwear to it, but my in>pr«'HHion in tliat hIu' wan owned by the I'ilot Hoard at (hi> tim«>. (j. — Wan that the name otcaHion that Mr. Kmith npoke 20 about? Were you with Mr. Smith when that work wan done? .\. — No. I wan n the veHsel otf and on, with the otliern an they come and go; but I would not Hwear to particular daten an to jUHt wlien I naw her. (i. — Do you know an a matter of fact about her being lengthened at one time? A. — i knew that nhe wnH hauled out 30 and lengthened. Q. — Did you ha]tpen to nee her when hIw wan being length- ened? I have no recollection. I wan not working on her, and conwMiuently did not go near her to my knowledge. H. — Did you He«' her after she had been lengthened? A.— • Yes. sir. Q. — Do you know enough about her to be able to giv«' an idea of what hIu' was worth? A. — I c(tuld'giye what my own idea is of what I would be willing to i>roduce her for. {}. — What would you say she would be worth after she was 40 lengthened? A. — From what I know of the "('aroleiia" after she was lengthened I would not undertake to construct her hull and spars — The (Commissioner on ilie part of the United States: — Please answer the (juestion, witness. Ity Mr. I'eters: — Q. — What do you think she was worth llien? .\. — Am I to understand, with her ready for sea? Q. — Yes. A. — The vessel would be worth in my «'stimation Sf:{.S(M» or f4.(MM>. just about there. i}. — Mow was she with regard to sailing? A. — I under- stood her to be a very fair sailer. ti. — You do not jtretend to sjx ak anything about the scal- ing outfit? A. — No, sir. Q.^You spoke of another vessel beside tlie "Chiirbitte Cox"? A.— Yes. the "Diana." (i. — Was she a sealer? A. — Yi'S. (i. — \Vhat tonnage was she? A. — I think her tonnage was about ;".'{ tons or r»(! tons, stuiu'where around there, but I am C^Q not positive as to her tonnage. Q. — Wliat did you have to do with her? A. — I was one of the ])aHies in the contiact on her. Q. — ^VIlen was that, or about when? A. — That would b<" about 1SS<> or lHi>0. Mv imjiression is we launched her in isno. Q. — Did you have any interest in that ship? \. — None whatever than working on her. Q— Who did vou build her for? A.— Oco. Collins. 50 m ml if [ I h- I9S .1 f I : M A. — Tlip confrnrt for her tlii> HiiilM or i-iK^iiiK on A.— Nollilnji. Q. — You IiimI u rout met to biiiUl lu-i? A. — W't' had to a (M'l'tHill fXl«'llt. Q.— Wliat part of licr ilitl .von liavo to do witli? A.— \\V fonHtrnctfd tlif linll and fmniNlit'd tho HpnrH, with tin' cxcfp- tion that w«' furniMlu'tl no iron worlv for tlu> v«'hwI, or did non»> of tlu' d«'cli ftirniHiiinKH, such an jjalh-.v, caltin, or fori>»'aHth>, or an.v of tlic interior arnint{<'Ui«'HtM. Wliat I nMMin hy tlu- Iron worli. iH tin- iron work rtMinirt'd for tin* rif^^fint;. an liniHJdny: in^iidf? Nothing; whatever. (i.— Yon scaled licr? A.— t'crtainly, wc flniHlicd the hull. W'f iteah'd the vcshcI, and weifjlit«'d the dc(ks. 20 i}. — Mow was it witii regard to the l>nildint; of ships in 1H!K> compared with say from IHHi to 1S8(i? Was it less ex- pensive or more expensive? A. — Well, r..y impression is that there would lie about a par. If anythinu I think that in 18H4, lSS,"i and ISSCi things were a little more expensive, bnt never haviuir built any in that time I cannot tell. Q. — Of what material were you in the habit of buildin}; these vf'ssels? A. — Hard l>ou;,das fir. H. — Is that considered to be a good material? A. — Oood material. 30 (2. — Could you in this part of the c(mntry get any better? A. — I know of no lietter without it would be yellow cedar; but it is a very scarce timber, and not generally used. Q. — Is yellow cedar more expensive? A. — It is more ex- pensive. (^--^ra<■tica^y spe:iking, is it obtainable in large (|uan- tities? A. — Well, I am not prepared to judge of that as it comes from the northern ])ortinongh to know. -Ml I know is that there was one vessel built nearly chiefly of it up at Port Es- 40 singttui. I hav«' never see any large (]uautitii*s of it brought to this market. Q. — What do y«ni nuike tlu' stem, stern-posts, and things of that description out of? A. — It is usual, if you can get a good fir crook to make the stem. The stern j)Ost and rudder stick are generally of oak. ii. — Do you know anything of what you call Oregon pine? A. — I have seen some se vessels, what is the usual wages y«ni give a g<»od ordinary ship caritentt-r? A. — I pay |4 a day for new v,'ork, and ffi on old. Q. — Is that tlu> usual price, or is it unusual? A. — That was the usual flgun' of the jiort. Q. — At the present time, is the cost of building a schooner Co li(>re greater or less than it was, say in ISSO, has the price decreased or inti it«-iii of s|iik«'H, for iiiHfaiicc, arc tli«'.v dcafoi- or i-lu-apcr now? A. — I rtiiiiiot Ma.v tlial tli«'i'«- Ih an.v inatiTial for Icmm. and an.vthinK that Iuin liilior Mttaclicd to il. (2. — For wvcral rcaHonH, whatever tln',v niav lie, yon can biiihl dieapcr now than .von coiihl in ISSII? A. — C'onHiilcr- ■tltlv so. There iH a liill of Innilier for 1S91 for :2.I(IH( feet Hi t2-2.7{\, and I conid jjet it to da.v for |15. 20 .30 40 5° Go (.'roHHcxainination liy Mr. l*lckin8on: A.— I did not bnild Q.— What Mhip did yon bnild in 1880? any. ii.—ln 1884? A.— None. (i.— In 18H5? A.— None. (i.— In 18S7? A.— Non«'. (2.— In 1888? A.— None. (^._\Vliat Hhiim did yon aid In building in 1884, 18s5. 1880. 1.S87 and 1888? A. — In the conMtriictioii? (2.— Yes. A.— I think tlie "Dolidiin" waH linilt then, bat I do not recollect the building of lier as to the date. (i.— Only tlie "Dolpliin"? A.— I do not recollect for cer- tain if sli«' was built in these .rears or not. ti. — Von took part in building lier? A. — Y» 8. t^. — Is the "Dolphin" the only ship — if she was bnilt in lliese y«'ars, wliich I believe she was not — Did .v depression stru«'k ns about four years ago. Q. — About the time it strnck the rest of ns in other (-rafts, probably? A. — Very likely. Q. — Let us see. Were .von ever on the "Carolena"? A. — I liave been on board her. Q. — Except this time wlien you repaired her? .\. — On and , or f4,000, are .vou thinking of what it would tost to build her? A. — Tha* is my idea, .res, sir. IP 'til i 300 111 ' ! 20 30 40 60 Q.— T» build lur ui'W? A.— Yt'ii, ttli'. (j. — Aim! ,voii Idim- .vniir tNliiniilt' mi lliiil? A.— Vt'H. (i. — Ami to iMiiltl Imt rit^lit now? A. — Vi'H. ij.— Now, voii liiiilt II riuiiiotti' Tux" of x:i toiiH III f'l.niMt willi Ih'I- h|hii'h mill riufjiiiiK'' A. — V«-h, hIi-. H|>iii-H bill not lu'i ri);Ki>>R- (2. — YtMi fiit-iiiNluMl tlii> H|iiirM? A. — All but llic forclop IIIIIMt. (j. — And ,viiii cHliiiiiilc tliiil tliiit fri.lt'N) Ih about two-tliirdrt o of tlio coHt to «M|uli) lit-r for wn? A. — Y«'m, Hir. (^ — Ho tliiil VOII would liiivi' to tidd to tin- fri.lilN) about fl.MliO for till* ri'Ht of tlif fi|ui|)!iM-nt? A. — 1 do not wIhIi to bi' iiilHiindi'rHtood. (j. — I do not wIhIi ,vou to bi' iiiiHiindorHtoud iibov«> nil tliin^'H. A. — Will, in till' Tliarlotti- Cox" I trivd to H|H-(ifv it in till- rontnicl an plain iih iioHHibli*; it wiih to i-onipli'ti- liiill and Hpai'8. (i. — Yo,i Hiiid tliat voiir lonlfact price waH ifri.fiOO for what VOII did on tlic "riiarlottc Cox?" A. — Yi'H, Hir. Q. — IMd you also Htiitf that you iiHiially cHliniatcd tliat tliat would b«' two tliirdH of tin- i-oHt of equipping lii-r for Ki'ii? A. — Yi'K. Hir that would be after vou completed Ihr hull. Q. — Tlien what would be your total eHtiniate of the cost of e<|ui)ipiii}; the "Cliiirlotte Cox" for sea? A. — Are you H|N'ak- iiiK of It to-day? (i. — \o, no, wiien you built her. A. — P.nt a burned child dreadH the tire. Q.— Never mind tliat. Afti-r you liiiilt her for fr..(;i>(» wliat is your eHtiniat-' of the total coHt of oiiiiippinp her for Rea? I am not f^oiup into your ]>riv. ' liuHineHK, and I don't want you to. 1 waul you to estini on tlie leHtimony you liave piven? .\. — Well. tal\in^ ni\ ihI contract at fn.liOO, yii.iSIHI would be the next add*-d, thai would be another one- third. Q. — You are a Hhipwrijjht and not a mathematician, and I tliiiik that we can tlKiire that out for oiirHelven. Now, wiih that aliout tlK< Haino lliintr in repird to the "Diana," did yon do her in about the Mami' way? A. — No, tdr. Q. — What did you put on llie "Charlotte Cox" that you did not put on tlie "iHana?" .\. — I fiirniHiied the iron work i'Xcejit her Hteerlnp ffi'iW. Q. — And what was that added to cost? .\. — It would be in the nei);hbur]iood on the "Diana" of f2.^0. (i. — More. A. — Yoh, hIi". Q. — That in what you did not furniwli? A. — Ycb. then tlier(> would be fifty dollarH for the windlaHK that we did not fiirniHh. ii. — Wlial cIhi ? A. — IlawHe pipes. Q. — IIow much for that? A. — I do not want to swear about the .Mbion Iron Works jtrices, they po by weiglits, one set of hawue pipes will perhaps wei<{h more than anotlier and cost more, and I would not like to lie positiv or swear to what the hawsi' jiipes would cost. Q. — Well, give us a maximum and a minin-nim jirice? A. — I would judge it would be in the neighborhood of ftlO or fin Q. — That would not hurl us. What else was there on the "Diana" that you did not furnish. A. — \Ye did not furnish her copper fastenings. Q. — AVas she Kiibseiiuenlly copper fastened. A. — She was copper fastened befoi'<> she was launched. Q. — What was the cost of that? A. — The copper was furnished and cost the owner, I believe, flOO. Q. — Was there soinelhing els*' that you did not furnish to equip her for sea? A.— We did not furnish her in cabin, forecasfle or galley. 50 20I "•!h Q.- Dili you riirniHli tlif roiii|Miiiinn viny to k<> Ut tlu> eiibin? A.— No, Hlr. (i.— ThiiJ IiimI Io Im" nil in Imt (leek? A.— No. (J.— IH«I .vou Iciivf II liol«> for it? A.— <'('Hiiin|y. i|iii|i lit'i' for wa? A. — A p.oil dciil of tliat would iIi'iMMitl uii till' Ht.vli' tliat tli«>y Htti'il Iwr up in. (^^\VII, till' Htyli' in wliicli ,voii Iniilt tli<> nliip, if ,voii ««'rt> to fiirnlHli it .voiirHcIf A.- You want nii- to /,'lv •' ni.v ii'i-a Io iiH to wliat it woiilil roHt to ttniHli up licr rahin, and fiii'«> raMlIc and jtallr.v'' A.— I would not und(>rtak«> it foi K'hh than I5INI oi ftllH). Q.— You woiiid make money on that, would you not? A. —I niij{ht, and I niijihl Ret nip|H'd. Q.— You do not nii'iin to wiy that your «*<4tiiiiatfH ar»' ho wide of till' mark thar you i-annot tell wlu'thiT they are with- in the lOHt or on the outside of it. do you, in theVaMe of all your ewtimateH'' A.— Tlie <'Htimnto on the veHwl at tlrnt coMt wiiK Ih*Iow the mark. 20 Q.— Helow the mark? A. — Uiiow (he mark. Q.— Then you are aeeiiHtomed to build veHHelH in that way, you Itailt the "<"ox" helow the mark and then built the "IHana" Iwlow the mark? A. — There in an ex]danath)n lliat fiin be Riven. Q. — Never mind your explanation now. Mr. I'eterH: — 'I he witnesn wiMieH to i?ive an exj.lanaM'iii 30 Mr. DiekiuKon: — Yon can get that explanation from him when I am through with my examination. (To witncHH.) (J. — Were thcue two veHHelH built below the mark? A. — Certain. (J. — .\nd you Hay you jjot left both timew? A. — Ilotli tiinen. (i. — Did you net left on the "Dolphin"? A. — I not my money every Saturday on ln>r. ti. — You were doiuR journeyman'H work then? A. — Yes. Q.— The "Diana" that you liave teHtitled to wan built in the 40 winter of 1HS!( and 1S!)(I? A. — I am H|M>akinK from memory, and I think that Ih tlie time. n ko seatteri d through that I cannot swear to dates an to when the vessels were built. 50 Q. — W«'ll. before you yourself bepin to build there was not much building of sealing vessels hei-e? \. — Not a ^reat deal. Q. — They came from Nova Rcotla Inrpcly and from San Francisco? A. — J'sually. yes. (i. — ^The shi]> chandlery stores were not equippe to know. i}. — I think I j;ot an ausw«'r to a «|uestion fi'(»ui you, that in 1S8J. ISSn and 1SS(( before vou biiill the "IMaua'" in IKS!) oi- lS!t(l, four (U- I've years before you built the "Diana." tiie jealinj.^ shijis were usually broujiht heie from San Franciseo or Nova Seotia. They were built elsewhere than in NMctorii usually, were they not? A. — It is jut-tty hard for me to tell just when the tirst vesstd came around here fr'om Xova Scotia, whether it is as far banst of llum came from in 1SS4 or 1885, whether from Nova Scotia or from San Frant-isco? A. — The most of our sealing fleet tliat has been imported, I nnd«>rstand, is from the East; Nova Scotia is, I think, the cliief jdace they come from. Q. — Were tliere many more from Nova Scotia than from San Francisco? .\. — I should think a great many more. Re-cross examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Now, yon are testifying, you understand, to the year ISSfi at the latest. Tan you name me a single ship that is in the sealing (leet that came to this port from Nova Scotia, jtrior to or during the yi'ar 1886? A. — I think I said, be- fore sir, that I did not like to confine myself to dates at all. as it was not my busiiu'ss to keej) a record of them. Q. — ^Vill you swear to a single sldj) that was afterwards in llie sealing tieet, (»r was then in the sealing fleet that came to this port from Nova Scotia, prior to or during the year 'SSr? A. — I would not swear to one of them. I wonid n.»t sw(>ar there was ever one came from there, for I never saw her leave there and get here. Mr. Peters: — It docs appear to me that there should be some limit to the number of times my learned friend shoild cross-examine. This is a ntatter he cross-examined on be- 40 fore, and 1 simply re-examined the witness on it. Mr. Dickinson: — Rut you have gone into the (|u<'stion of the great majority of these schooners coming from Nova Scotia, and I have the right to inquire about that. .Mr. I'eters: — I simply re-<>xamined on the j)oint raised by yourself. Mr. Dickinson: — .\iid I want to see what the witness knows about it. I have a perfect right to cross-examine 50 him on your reexamination, and with all due deference I think I am entitled to a ruling on that point. The Ccmimissioner on the part of the T'nited States:— For tiiy jtart I do not remember the examination fully. Mr. Dickinson: — This is as regards tin' Nova Scotia t'eet and my learned friend has called njt a new fact: that the great majority of these vessels came from Novn Sc<»tia. Mr. Peters: — That »anie out in your own examination. Cq Mr. Dickinson: — Now, if my learned friend is going to be Itchnical as to the introduction of testinnmy, what sln^ll we say of this mass of testimony that has been put in by him in this case from start to tinish. If he ts going to insist that I he evidence should be conducted in accordance with the rules of common law of the I'nited Slates and of Great llrit- ain, I acce]»t the issue, and I shall use mv in-ivilege of object- ing to incompetent testimcmy from this time out, if my learn- ed fiiend desires to ndojit that rule. ifi II m lii 304 M Mr. lVt«'i'H: — We nn> not aware of what has boon stated by my h'arned frieiul, tliat a lot of irrel«>vaiit teKtiniony has b<'eii put in. It i.s quiie open fttr my friend to object to any evidenee that we may tender at any time durinf; fiu> conrse of the investlKiilion? We liave no objection to Iiis arpu- injr tlie point, and win n he does arjfue it we Hhall attempt, as well as we can, to answer his objection. This witness has been examined on a certain jtoint, and cross-examined on that point. lie was cross examined with rejjard t<) a certain '° other i»oint, and I to<»lv the liberty of re-examining; him on that point, and both in accordance with the rules of com- mon law. and in accoidance wltii tiie rules of every court. F liad a perfexamination, Mr. Pet- 30 ers. he rather thoucrht he did recollect some dates. Dickinson: — Yes, and fixed the dates The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — Judfte Kinn and myself a^ree to allow the question to be put. Mr. Dickinson: — I wish to say one word on the Rj'ueral sub- ject in reply to my learned fiieiid on the other side. I under- stood in the discussion of tin rules >ipon which we tormally 40 agreed in order to sink onr differences and save tiin«>, that we would not adopt the strict rules of tlu> common law, and ev«'n if we had agreed io d<» so, we doubted whether the leanunl (Commissioners would accejit any such rule. Hut furthermore we have understoml d to incompetent testi- mony, to say n >thinv: of immaterial and irrelevant testimony, in the course o, this hearinfj;. If I have misunderstood the lulinR of the learned Commissioners, and the suf^K^'stion of the learned Commissioners, as to the rule in r«>}jard to the takiuK of testimony, I would like t(t know it now, so that if we are to be s'f>verened by the rules of Common law, I may take such objections as I would deem to be necessary in an ordinary trial at nisi prius. The Commisumer on the jtart of the I'nited States: — The Commissioners have not ruled ujuui the question of relevancy or competency of testimony. We have simply intimated that the questions that have lieen biou);ht before the Commis- sionei's with relerenci' to the admissibility of evidence have not been iiuestions of co'upett 'icy o" relevancy of evld<'n<*e, but they have rather Iteen questions hearing upon the issues wlilcli are presented here. That is to say: the questions presented to the Conunlssioneis so far, would require the SO 60 ! .!' lO t'oiniiiiHHioncrs lo nih iiiioii tlic iii;iiii iHSiu-;-. which (VmiumcI niim'd on the one side or the other. So far as tliese are (•((iiccnii'd tlie roiiiuiiHsiomTs luive been nnwilliii); to rule upon tliese main iHHiies, but prefer to h-ave them until the case is all in, and arjrued bv rounael. The protests raised It.v counsel have been mainly npon quostions of that sort. \Ve have indic:>en asked to riilo upon a mere question of relevancy or competency. Mr. Dickinson: — Wo certainly have not asked yew. The rommissioner on the i>art of the Tnifed States: — Xei- tlier side has asked us to rule, as to whether evidence of a primary or secondary character would be allowed. What llie Commissioners will d«> when a (juestion of that sort comes up is still open to question. The (juestion before us now is merely a :, !i -i wmm ! If (jll > ill [1 M !' 40 ^o ()0 The rommi8.sioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I agree with what my learned brother has said. I wt>uld at present iigiee with him in objecting to laying down before hand any lirm and fast rule to bo f>bserved in this matter. Hut in matters relating to the admissibility of evidence — which must bo governed in our judgment by th<' particular case as it arises — I agree also in saying that the nmtter must bo loft largely to counsel. It must not be supposed that we would abandon the right which every court has of keeping the c:iso fairly within the bounds of the pleadings. Wo must do that or otherwise the counsel would have the con- trol of the case and not the cotirt. We must do that in the interest of orderly proceedings, and in order that the case may not extend to undue length. Coming now to this nnit- ter espi'cially in ((uestion, I for myself laco in the examination (not having taken noes) to enable mo, off hand, to detciinine whether tlie matter that .Mr. I'ott'rs had g«uie into, strictly arose out of the cross-examination oi- not. It appears to mo that it would bo better to treat it as a new examination which would warrant Mr. Dickinson in cross- exauiininu; upon it; and then, subject to .Mr. I'otors' right to locxamim' further, coufliiing himself entirely to the matter iif .Mr. Dickinson's crosscvaminalion That. I Ihink. is the \io\v that w<' onloitain upon this matter. It occurs to me tlial it would be better to deci<1e each (|iH>stioii as it arises, lallier than thin we should constitute a proicdent by hiving down M rule to cdvor :i gieit number of matters, which might not be in our minds at the time wo made that rule. p II T irp '■ -TJis mj •♦•)| lO 30 30 40 50 60 206 Mr. IMi-kin»()ii: — Tlio ConiiiiissioiuT.s must have ohwrvi'd that I have not objecti'd to what iiuist have been eoiiHidered iueoinpetent tesiimon.v from time to time. I did thiH for the IMirpose of Having time, nH well as because of the intimation of the CommisMionerH that the examination was largely in the hands of counsel. I have contented myself with not cross-examining on certain tpu slionti which I deemed to be so clearly incompetent as to re(|uirt> no ehicidation. The Commissioner on the part of ITer Majesty: — You have fairly earned the character of a fair and liberal cov.r.Hel in the nnitter Mr. Dickinson. Mr. Dickinson: — Thanks, your Lordshi]>. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — I think wi' may say that of counsel on both sides. Without any intimation from us and without any sharp ruling on the jtart of the court counsel on both sides have very carefully follow- ed the usual rules governing examination, cross-examination and reexamination of witnesses. In this case I agree fully with what Judge King has said. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson <'ontinu«'d: (J. — Can yon name me a ship that came arotmd from Nova Scotia before IHXd or in the year ISSC? A. — No, sir, I can- not. 1 cannot swear to the date. Q. — Do you know the first ship that «'ver did come around and that went into the sestling tleet. A. — The first ship Ui my recollection was the '"IMoneer."' Q. — Was it not the "Patliflnder'"? A. — It is the same schooner. Mr. Dickinson: — Then we are agreed upon thiit. That is all I have to ask you. Examination of the witness closed. Mr. Peters: — Yesterday my learned friend in cross-examin- ing Mr. Hechtel brought out from him the fact, or it came out in the course of examination, that he had been appointed ad- ministrator of James Ogilvie. I am not cpiite sure tJuit it may be mattM'ial, but in ord vr that the matter may be before the court I produce now the letter of Administration, which were issued to him. Mr. Dickinson: — It might be stated in the niinntes that let- ters of administratiiMi a|)pcar to liav<' been issued from the Supreme Court of Hritish Columbia to A. J. I{e(ht<'l on th»> estate of James Ogilvie, deceased, on the 4th day of October, 1SS,S, reciting the deatli to have occuircd on the 2(!th of Aug- ust, 1HS(!. Mr. Hechtel yes^terday thought that his letters of administration came from Sitka. Mr. Peters: — I will exi)lain that to you also. Tiie docu- ment u])on which the death was jiroved (that is a copy of the coroner's incpiest), was sent fi'om Sitka, siiid that is the docu- ment he was ref<'rring to. no doubt. Of course the letters of administration must have been issued in Itrilish Columbia. I will recall Hechtel as to that. There is another matter that h(> might ex|ilain u]ion. lie was tilso asked with regard to some stubs of receipt books and 1 would like him to be ex- amined u|)on that subject, and of course cross-examined by Mr. Dickinson. Andrew J. Hechtel. of the city of N'ictoria, a witness al- ready examined and duly sworn in this case was recalled: Examined by Mr. Peters: filf'iil'jllj i, il. — Von were askt'd llu- olliei dii.v willi re)jfiir«l (o lakiiif? out letUrs (»f adiiiiniKlratiton? A. — Yes, Hi r. Mr. I'elers: — I intend, with tlie consent of in.v learned friend, wliicli consent I tliink I will K<'f. ♦•• •»•' content with entering on the minutes the date of these letters of adniinis- I rat ion. and the.v need not be tihd as an exhibit. (To wit- nt'HH); 10 Q — Yon were asked to look or some stnbs of receipts, and lis a matter of fact did y«tn make a search? A. — I did, sir. Q. — ^^'hat is the latest book of receipt stnbs yon conld j;el? A. — I conld not tind the one in <|uestion. (y — Did y«ni brinfi what yon conld tind? A. — These arc just the stnbs of honse H'ceipts. il — Is that the ordinary receipt book yon had been keep- ill}! in lSi(r>. A. — No. this is a house receipt. ii. — I want to call your attention to tlu' way in which they are ninubered. Do the numbers run conse(ntiv<'ly? A. — \o, JO tliey ar»' numbered accordinfj to the number of the cottaf;*'- (j. — So that in your course of business, with regard t«» this matter, the numberinf!; here shows the number of your cot- tatJ*'"' A — Yes. (i.— The tirst one is E. ('. Davis and that is No. «? A. — Yes. sir. (I. — And the next one is ISerrifjan and that is No. 4? A. — Yes. sii'. (i.— .\nd so on all through the book? A. — You will tind tiieni just the same all tlirouf^h the l>ook. jO Q- — Not beiufi numberi'd cr>, yon di.^ you j^ave (lie same man? .\. — No, it is just as you see it (hi-re. (^ — Did you act under these letters of administrathm? A. — Yes. sir. (i. — Did you find any heirs? A. — No. not that I know , not likely. Q. — Vou did not get the same? A. — I could not get the same, not likely. Q. — L>id yon in any searches you made find any book of re- ceipts or any rcceijds of that form of blank. " (Hlank re- ferred to is attached to p:xhibit No. i). (5. I J. "('arolena'' case.) A. — I did years ago, but not of late years. Q. — Did you find any in any searches you have made since yesterday to find blank receipts? A. — The stub? Q. — No, the receipts? A. — No, sir. Q. — You did not find any? A. — No, sir. Q. — llow long has it been si.ice you have seen any re- «'eipts of that style made in lfS88? A. — It has been a number of years since I have seen any. Q. — How many ycius about? A. — I cannot say. (i. — 1SS5 is elevi'ii years ago? A. — 1 have not seen them for five or six or seven years and piobably longer. I could not r«'memlu'r when r. (Gxamination of witness closed.) ■ ii i'lin ' I .I<»hn Sabiston, of tin- (Mty of Victoria, a witness i»roduced 50 on behalf <»f Her Majesty, being duly sworn, deposed: (Examined by Mr. Hodwell.) Q. — Your nanu' is .lohn Sabiston? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Vou live in Victoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Vou are a pilot? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Y(»u have been a resident of Victoria most of your life, liave you not? A. — No. but I have been a resident of Itrit- isli Columbia all my life, and in Victoria nine years. ii. — Vou lived at Nanaimo? .\. — Yes. Q. — Your father was a pilot, I beli<'ve? A. — Yes. (J. — Did he live at Nanaimo? A. — He lived at Nanaimo and belonged to the society of pilots who opemtcd betwi'cn A'ictoiia and Nanainut and down to the Uace Uocks and in that neighborhood. Q. — Did you know the schoner "(^arolena?" A. — Yes, I knew her. Q. — llow long did you know her? .\. — I cannot say but quite u lon^ time. 60 10 20 40 50 Go 309 (). — III wliiit Wii.v did you ((mik' (o know Iht? A.— Well, I seen licr come fo Naniiiiiio for coal nixl wlicii tlic pilotH iiwiu'd licr I would sec licr oc(aNioniilly. I was "scliooiK'r- iii^r," riiniiiiii!; a mhooncr m,v«clt' in carl.v da\T.. (l — And .vou wciH- accuHtonicd to sliips and took an inter- est ill tliein? A. — Yes. (2.— Did vou know anything alioiit the "Carolena" with reference to her lines, sailiii;; (|ualities, and s<» on? A. — Ves, I had seen the vessel and slu' had very fjood lines. ii. — What were her lines according; to yonr knowledpN and wliat were her capacities ,is a sailer, according to your kiuiw ledjje? A. — She was a fn»n\ nailer. (i. — What were her lines of luiild? A. — I do not quite understand that «]uestion. ii. — Vou say she was a }J'»<>*1 sailor. Did she have any re- [•utation anionij sailinfj men? .\. — Ves. ii. — What was it? A. — That she was a fast sailer. t^. — Did yon say she was owned by the pilots? A. — Yes. Q. — Were you on board of her when she belonjjed to the jiilots? A. — No, I was not. (i. — Do yon know if anything; was done to her while tlu' pilots owned her? A. — They fitted her np for their own ac- coinniudation. (). — And subsequently she became the property of Mr. Donald Urquhart? A. — Yes. il. — You know that? A. — Yes. (.]. — Did you visit her after she benune his propertv? A. —Yes, I did. i-l. — Why did yon ^o to visit her? A. — He asktd me to {;o down and have a look at her. ii. — What was the occasiiui of that? A. — He had lenj^th- eiied her and made her a larger vt'ssel. Q. — Was that work done when you went to se.' her? .\. — Ves. siie was tinished. (.i. — What observations did you make on that occasion? A. — I had a look at her and told him that I thou$i;ht she was ill very jjood order. Q. — What had been done to the vessel? A. — About tw'o- lliirds of the hull had been renewed in the lengtheiiiii}! of the boat. (■i. — How did it conn' abimt that two-thirds of th«' hull hatl been renewed, just explain fully. A. — That was in breaking the joints and pl:inkiiij>: the hull and the deck. The wlude planks had to be taken out so as to break the joints. ii. — And in dolus that did vou put in new planks? A. — Ves. ii. — How lon^; would these new planks be in many in- stance's? A. — Tliey would be ditTereiit lengths so as to over- lajt from the new work over the old work, some of th«' planks were, I suppose, two-thirds the length of the vessel. Q. — How about the deck? A. — The d«'ck was similar I be- lieve. ii. — Was there anything else done to her? A. — She had to have new rifininj; and sails and spars, because the vessel was much larjjer than she had been. ii. — What condition was she generally in then? A. — Shu was in very good condition. ii. — Well, would you compare her as an
    i> ufiaid .voiir IIoikmii-, .voii will liavt- lo you know anything about the time when an excep- tional interest in the scaling business took place in this port? A. — No, I do not. 1 cannot say. Q. — Do you remember in the y«'ar 1880 whether there was a demand for sealing schooners? A. — I cannot say whetlier it was 188(i or a little later. Q. — l»o you remember at any time? A. — Well, not parti cularly. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing. (J. — Are you n«>w engag<>d as a pilot? A. — I am. y. — At the time you lived in Nanaimo you were a pil(»t? A. — I was. Q. — Aiid your father was a pilot? A. — Yes. Q. — You knew the ship "Carolena" when she was carrying coal? A. — Yes. (i- — Was she a large schooner? A. — No, she was^n't. i}. — Where was she carrying coal to and from? A. — \a naimo to Victoria. ii. — Who owned her? \. — She was owned by a man called Captain Jones when 1 tirst knew her. Q. — What was his tirst name? A. — Janu's. (i. — You saw her after she was repaired by Captain T'rquhart? \. — Yes. Q. — And yon think that twi>-thirds of her hull was renew- ed? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— Fully two thirds? A— Yes, sir. il. — Was two-thirds of her deck renewed? A. — Y«'s. sir. • (J. — Any new ribs in? A. — The whole new part. Q. — There were not two thirds of the ribs renewed? A. — Well, there can't have been two tliirds cpiite of the frame. ii. — Of the sheathing? A. — A. — Very mar it. Q.— And the (feck? A.— The deck-house. (i. — New spars? \. — New s]iars. Q — Who put in the new spars? A — That I couldn't tell you. Q. — Did you see Mr. Hobiuson on board? A. — Xo. (i. — It was after tlie work b.-ul been comitleted? A. — Yes. Q. — Did they put new rails on? .\. — Yes, new rails, new bulwark. (i. — .\ round the whole vessel? A. — No. I don't think all round the vessel. (i.— Two thirds of the vessel? A.— AVell. pretty near it; if it wasn't two-thirds it was jnetty near it. Q. — Is work on an old vessel more expensive tl'.an it is on n new vessel? A. — Yes. (.}. — Then if yon understood that the work on that vessel cost *!»(i(l, yiilin^ HiliooncrH? A. — \<>, ali<' wnsii't ti Hciiliiijr si'liooiuT. (J. — I iisk you if y<»ti liiul biilM nny Realin>; schooucrN? A. — So, I it'll not !i bnildtT. I havt' paid for (lie building; of ii lidiif. Q.—In wlint y«'nr? A.— 1S72, and also in 1S!».'{ or 1W»4. (J.— Did you have any v»'w8«'Ih built from ISSl to IWMt? A. No. {}. — How do you know tln'n liow niutli it would coHt to 10 liiiild a v('K8«'l in tiiosc years? A. — Jiid^in); from what it coHt in 1S7U and what it cost in ISJCJ. (^._l>i(l you over buy a vessel between ISHO and IS9(>? A. No. il — Did vou ever sell a vessel between 1S80 and 1S!)(>? A. —Yes. (2.— M'hat one was that? A.— The "Wanderer." (2._\\1,<.„? A.— 1SH((. Q. — Was tlu' "Wanderer"' afterwards seized? A. — 1 couldn't tell you, may be she was. 2o '^ — '*^ ■^'"" think that it w(»uld cost to-day f.'i.OOO (o build a 1*7 ton vessel? A. — I dcm't know. Q._\Vould it in 1S!>-1? A.— In 1H!»4? Q.— Yes? A.— Yes. Q- — #i>.Q this jMtrf A. — 1 couldn't (oil you because I liaven't been in ■' the scalin" business. Ke-direct examination. <). — Did you have iiny application made to you with refer- ence to the demand for sealinj; vessels in 18S(!? A. — W«'ll, I vas asked at»our my own schooner. (i. — Do yon know the circumstances that led to your beint; iiskcd altout your own s0. • (jo ^Ii'- nodwell:— My friend. Mr. Lansing, appears to be under a niisapprehj'usion as to the cost of that new W(»rk. Mr. Kob- inwMi's bill was I'MKI. but it did not include the spars or any- thing of that kind, and his cross examination was on that basis. Mr. Lansing: — I would like to ask the witness erne more ipiestion in regard to the sale of the "Wanderer," You say it was for trading purposes? ! ' m :i2 20 Mr. nodwcll: — Voii liavc fxaiiiiiiol on tliiit pniiit (lUio. Ml'. LiiiiHing: — Von l)i-oii);lit out tlic f:i«t. Mr. Hodwt'll: — M,v fi-iciul iiMkcd a (|iu'Htion altont llic "Wan- '(li'i-tT, Hull lu' aHkfd if tliat waH tlic vi'hh*-1 tliat waH H.-i/.cd, and till' witness said may In- it was. and lu* Htoppt'd liis ex- amination tiicre. Tlu' Commissioner on Hie |iart of Her .Majesty: — We will IQ allow the (piestion to t)e jnit. Mr. Lansing: — I do not rare to asix it, tlianl\ you. Uy tlie t'omniisHioner on the part of tlie I'nited Statt's:^ il. — Do you know, Mr. Witness, tluit this vt'ssel laid new Kpars at that time? A. — The "Carcdeua?" Q. — Yes. in 1HH4? A. — I eotildn't say wlnit year it was in. (i. — Wln-n slie was len^rtiiened otit? A. — Yes, slie laid new s]tars tlien. Q. — Mow do you know that; were you intert'sted in her at that time? \. — Xo, I was not interested, tiie owner was down tliere lookiu); at tier. (i. — To wliat ext( nt dirt slie have new spars? A. — She had two nnists, sujiposed to have been luiilt new. ii. — Two new masts? .\. — New masts. y. — Of eoiirse she h.id new standini; ri}?K'">? then? A. — O, yes. • i. — Have new running; liuffiii};? A. — New running rig- f;ini;; n«'\V l>locks. Q. — Did she have new sails? \. — Well, I would n<»t be 3^ positive wlietlier she had sails bent when I was down there or not. ii. — Mr. Peters. ha\en'1 yon any witnesses that know what ^ork was dom- on that schooner at that time? Mr. I'eters: — I have some witn«'sses. We will <;ive to the Court any information we ciin. I cannot say exactly that we or 10 yt'tii'H, weir .v«»ii in the Hiiint' hutti- iit'HH also clHcwlH'rc? A. — lU-cn in llif Hlii|ilMiildin(; hiiNlni'WH, tiijit is, a joiii'Mfyiniin. on and otT (lit- IuhI 25 xoh'n. (i.— Wlu'n-? A.— Ill Uu' KuMl. (.y — In Xovn Scotia? A. — In Nova SroHa. il. — And all that tinn> joii have Ix-cn ornipicd in tin- Imild- iii^ of vchhcIn? a. — Not all tlie tiiiM*, on an vi'aiK st«'ad.v at it. (y — lUd yon work on Itiiildiu^ i»rftl.v lar^o vchscIh? A. — YcK. sir. iy — What tonnatif? A. — Well, I have worked on vchhcIh all the way from KKI tons to l.SdO tons. (i. — Did yon linild any waling HchooncrN? A. — 1 built two Healing srhoontM'H in tluH jaiit. g._\Vhat wcr*' tlu-y. tlu'ir nanicK? A.— The "Victoria" was one. and the "KntcrjiriHc.' Q. — When did yon linild them? A. — I commenced in the tall uf 1S!)1, and K*>t done in the Hprinf; of 1K!>2. (i.— Hoth of them? A.— Vew. sir. Q. — IHd you bnild tlicm under contract? A. — One of th(m>. Q.— Which eteiit on the value of a shi]), must bear upon the time when the ship was seized, or when the value was in (]nesti(m. That, of course, is too <'lear for argument. Of course, if thei-e is no testimony to be had as to the value ()f ships in jiort, as of the time when the valu- ation was to be fixed, then they may no into prior years and subse«iuent years and trace back; l)ut in ordcM" to make sub- 40 se(|uent testimony <'onipetent years after the fact. «)r years be- fore the fact, the impossibility of ]n-oducinK siwli testimony beariu}; on the value at the time must be demonstrated. There is no (luestion whatever like that here, for the reason that it is ap])arent that tlieie were any number of ships here and about this jtort in 1HS4. ISS.^. issii, 1SS7 and \XHS; there were Heels of such shijts here; and the (piestion is not what it cost lo build, unless they can show that ships wt'ie built at that time. Then, of c'ourse. it would have some bearing on the value of the ship, if (hey show the cost of buildin<; at 50 . We submit that the cost of building a ship when (-(uiditions had changed, as has been demonstrated here, six years later, can have no possible bear- iiifj; on the value of a sealinj; ship in 1S,<5r>. Mr. Hei(iiie: — We have it in evidence that there were very Go '''W vessels built here in ISSti when this vesst'l was seized; outside (tf those that are in issue, or will be in issue in the oilier cases, I do not at present remember of any one; and, so far as tlmse are concerned, I understand that it is the desire of the Commissioners that we should not }jo into their cost, and I understand that to be the ruliu}; jjiven yesterday. Now we have it also in evidence that the pri<'e of bnildinf; v<'s«els was considerably mon> in 18S(i than it has b«>en in later years, ISit.'J or l.'^itU. beinjr the years about whi<'h the i»resent wit- i;i; !fcrll fi^i ill :ivi:;l nil ' ¥ ' •: I ! II iim |lltllitl!l''l^ 214 lO i llfHH WIIH H|K'aklll^, lliul tllCl-cfoi'f it S<-«-IIIH lo III*' (llllt it Im ri>lll|K'tc!ll «'Vi(l«'Il(t' mill >I\iili-ll<')', to cliqililc IIH to tin- cost of vchwIh ill tJH'w later .vt-arH. Mr. nif-kiiiMoii: — I liavc one word iiiort> to Hay. Of coiirHo It 1h iK'rft'ctl.v apiiaifiit, that if tlic new ground in,v fri»'ii«l takcM, that cvhlfiit*' of th*> conI of tlx' Hhip in IM!):.' iiia.v bear on tli«> fOHl of a Hliip in ISSli, by hnihoii of tlu* ilifTrrciirc in tht> <-oMt, it natiiiiill.v followH that it Ih lu-ccNHaiy for thnii to hIiow tlu' coHt in orih'r to kIiow t!u' ilillViciifo in coMt. Tht-ii iii.v lirolhcr'H ar^iiiiii'iit, it m'l'ins to inc. Ih a ilcnitiiistration of the iiicoiii|M'tcnc,v of the tcHtiiiuaiy. Iiciaiisc it Ih |>rc aH to which he otfeiH the teNtiniony as to the cost of the shiji. That seeiiis to me very clear. If his testiinony is only coiiip<>teiit in 1S!li!. on the Kroiind my friend statcH that by the teHtimoiiy of IM!L' a comparison may be made with IHSti, then he Is comparing what undoubtedly would be com- 20 I»etent testimony, althoiiKh not the best teHtimony. NVe must have, as a basis of comparison, competent testimony as to what the cost was in ISSt* and thus demonstrate the Im- iiiaterhility of his teHtimony of ls!t2. Itiit further, the testi- mony of the coHt of a vchhcI, while it may be competent, i» not the best lestliiKMiy, unless it also appeari* that there is no «'vldence as to the value of a ship because there were no ships at tlu' point as to which a place is tixed for valuation; and the best testimony of Viiliie, by all the rules, of ships, of horses, of p»odH, of chattel jtroperty of every kind and de- 30 Hcri|>tioii. Ih the market value at the time and place. In the abneiice of ships for sale and a demand for ships at the point, it is true that cost may be soiiu* evidence of valu(>. Noli constat, cost may Ik* some evidence of value in the absence of better jiroof; but at the time wlu-n they wish to li.\ a valiia- ti<»ii, this ]Mirt wan full of Hhips. They laid a market value; Hliips were bought and Hold; there is no qu(>Htion about it; there is no ditficiilty about ^^ivinj; your IIonourH the best pr time; no ships shown built <>arlier than six years later. Does it follow, that if no ships were built here, we imiHt tind tli»> «oHt «^f the shii» six years tx'fore, or nix yearn after, in ar- riving, not ai the <-ost of a nhi]), but at its market value? The true criterion is never the <-ost of the thiiijr, Iw-cause the owner, as lias been demonstrated here by witn(>ss after wit- ness, may pay more (U' |)ay less than she is worth. The c<»st is never an ess«'iitlal element of daimiffeH. The only use of cost in any case is, that it may be some evidenc(> tending; to show va)'M In the absence of better testiinony. 5 The rmuinissioner on the i»art of Her Majesty: — To in«' it BtH'iiis that tins evidence cannot be said to be, as aif^ued by Air. IMcivi'.son, in the position of secondary evidence admis- sibh' arin); upon value in 1S.S((. Well, evidence of cost in IHSH, if conditions (5q are ja*ov«'d to be the same, would alno have Home beariuf; up- on value in ISHti; and so would evidence of cost in IHU'2, if the evidence shows that the condituuis were the wime, <»• at all eventH no more adverse to his view. The evidence of cost in IHU'2 would be some evidence in the same way of cost in 1H8(>; and if the enquiry was solely as to what was" the cont in 18SI!, 1 think, upon (he evidenc*' before us, that «oHt in 1K!>2 would be material and relevant eviden«*e upon (hat issue. Of course wo have to bear in mind (hat the 4'ni|uiry was not as to the 40 lo 20 3 rviili-iH'c \i\\{'u UN lo roHt in ISNS anil \SH'.i iiiKJ vciii'H Im-Iwccii iHSti iind IM!):.'. iiiitl lo iih- il hci-iiin iih if iliix cviilfiKc iH UN |iro|MTlv iiiiili'iitil tind i-i-icviiiil «-viili-iiii- iih (lull. II iM a iiiiilt<-r lo niv iiiiiiil of <>. Tli*> valii*> of tlir ifslinioiiy. til*' (li'ffi'fc of iiii|ioi-laiH-i> lo Im' altiK-litd to it, diiii iniNlii'H an voii ^rl away froiii tlic dal*' rcH|iv lOMiiHfl for tilt' (laiiiiaiilH lia\«' aoi aiiiitiNl to IIh' ri'iiiolcHl lliiiil of date wlim tt'Nliiiiony would Ix' faiilv toiiNidi'ii'd to liavc iiiiicli wci^lit in di'iciMiiiiiii}; tlu' valiit' at llic date in *|ii<'slioii. It xrciiiN to IMC. liowoviT, thai the cvidoncc raiinor Itc said lo lie Kirirllv inadiiiiHHildi'. bill llial tlir obji'tlion Ih one llial atlVclH. and very niaii'rially allVrtM, ;n Ilic pari of tlic rnilcd Stales: — I would like to explain my views. I am peifeetly well aware llial, upon strict rules of law. it may lie very doiihtfiil wlielliei- this eviden<'«> would lie admissilile in a niiirt of jiis- liie. I am not clear wliethei' il would or not; but il is very doiililfiil to my mind. Xeverllieless. a ({real deal of evidence of this kind has ^oiie in, I'ollowin^ out the theory staled by .Mr. |{ei(|ue wlien I caMed his alleiilion day before yesterday to tile ipiestion whether this evidence is admissible. Mr. Heiqiu' llien stated his nu'tliod of working; liack to ISSIi. lie works back in a ditl't'reiit way from what I then supposed he woiibl; so that, to a lar^e extent, he lias met the objections which llion jiresented theiiiHelvt's lo my mind, lie works back by making <'omparisons of |irices, labor and materials. I must say that 1 liav«' listened lo this tistiniony alleiitively, and thai it has had some w('i;;lit upon my mind, for the rea- son that it has led up to the proposition or fad tlial lliere was some ;;ronnd for claiming that the condition of lhin<;s at A'icloria was peculiar. If this was the case of the trial of the value of a vessel at Moston or New York, and 1 was pre- siding, I should say at once llial the testimony could not b(> admitted. Mat the condition here is peculiar, that is, it is claimed to be peculiar, and the testimony tends lo lead n]i to the support of that pro|iosilioii. It is in a certain sense like j;eltiii<; at the value of vessels at remote jioinls, ax we oe- casionally have lo do, and where it is llie custom to <»pen the door very widely not re Kiiij;; but my own peisonai view of it is llial. Willi the evidence, we luive had i|iiile eiioii^ih to enable ns to iiii int*>ntion of aban- doning our riftht. after the close of this class t)f testimony, to move to strike it ut. Mr. Dickinson: — We accept tlie rulings, of course, and an' entirely satisfied with them, as they will ajiply to ns later on. as well as to onr friends . ihe Commissioners have taken no special p. (i- — You slated, .Mr. Clark, liie contract price for Ihe vessel "N'icloria" as beiuff !|>S,7i"iO? A. — Ves. sii'. Q. — N\ill you say whellier il was, from your experience, a fair price (u- not? A. — .\ fair piice. I was the lowest ten dei'er anyway. (i.— Did you repiiseni Ihe value of the vessel fairly then? A. — I think so. (i- — You built it under cdntracl'.' A. — Yes, sir. <]■ — Will you say what il included? .V. — Il included the hull of the vessel, spars, slanilinji rif,'j;in>;. running y;ear and sails, Iwo anchors, chains, I think that is about all. N'o lla>;s, no side lijrhls. no riding li^'il. "<• loir line, lotf, nothiuf; of that kind that was e.xira. (i.— \o onllll? A.— No sj-alinu ooKlt. Q. — N'ow you say that you built Ihe "lOnlerprise" also in the same year? .\. — Yes, sir. 60 A. — Ju8t about tlu' same tonnaji*'. lo 30 (^— Nor issn? (^— X(»r 1SS4? (i.— Nor 1SS7? had intn'ast'd or d«'( reascd at Victoria? A. — I think sii^'htly decreased; I hadn't much to do with them in IMS*!, my nioi'c (han to work as a jiuirneyman. I couldn't delinite- ly say as to the prices in IHSd; slijilitly deerwised I think. rross-examination by Mi'. Dickinson. Q. — What was the j»rice of buildin<; such a ship in 1S8(!? A.— I didn't build any in 1SS«. il. — l>o you know anything about ii? A. — Nothinp more thiiU to work amon;; the builders here. H. — Were there any built in IHHCt'! A. — Not to my know- h'dffc. Q. — Why do you say that the price of Ituilding such ships had decreast'd from ISSfi'? A.— Well. T think from what I knew about the material that it had slif^litly decreased. ii. — .\ny difference in waj,'<'s? A. — No difference that I am aware of. Q. — Well, thei'e was no buildiufj; here in ISH(5 of sealing ships was there'/ A. — No. sir. A.— No. sir. A. — I don't think so. A. — Not thiit I know of. A. — No sir, not that I know of. Q. — You don't know do you fnun any actual buildiu}; of scaliufr ships whether the price had incrtased fir decreased up lo \HU'2'! A. — I think there was «uie schooner luiilt here iibout 18SH. (i. — Sealing schooner'/ A. — I think so, I would not b«' posi- tive. (.i. — You are not positive about it. of any ships that were built of this class'/ A.— The schooner "Minnie" was built about that time. Q. — Has that been in your mind in giving your testinuiny. as to increase and decrease'/ A. — Not until you called my ;)ttenti(ui to it. ii. — Then you have no basis on which you estimate an in- crease or decr same timber that you used in repairing'/ .\. — Oh. the timbers are all about the same. Q.— There is some dilfereiice in cost between getting ii'Migh tinilu'r to keeji u]i repairs, and enough to build an en- lire new ship'/ .\. — (), ci'itainly. Q. — >'ou cannot tell iinythiiig about tlie cost of a ship in INSI. Iss-). 1SS(( and 1SS7? A.— (), I had nothing to d«i with lliem at that time. f,Q Redirect examination by Mr. Heique: Q. — III the answer svhicli riiu have given to the last ()ues- tion, have vou in mind s-ealiag ves.-iels or vessels of all sorts"/ A. — I iiieicly answered (he alin(; schooners? A. — Ortainly. yes. Mr. Dickinson: — If the court jdease, in connection with the cross-examination of Mr. llechtel. who produced the stub- book, I desire with the consent of my barni'd friends to juit in the transcript one set of stubs. Mr. Peters: — Hadn't we b 'tter take anotlu>r set too. ]{y aj.!;reenient of coniistl the followinir samples from the 20 stub-book mentioned are made a part of the record. "Xo. 4. — Date. August :{1. IS!)"); William l{env(m; amount, f 11.(1(1." "Xo. 4.— Date, ;{(»th Sei)tember. lSi>r>; William Uenyon; amount, fll.dO." "Xo. 4.— Date, :{Otli November, lS!>r>; Willian. !..v\<»., anumnt, ^11. (»(»." "Xo. (>.— Date,. Aujjnst ai, 1H*>5; E. (\ Dav ; ; au^i. 1 ., f 11.0(1." "Xo. fi. -Date September ?A), ISft.T; E. C. Davis; ani(»niit, 3° $11. (»(»." "Xo. 0.— Date, .'Ust October. ISito; E. (\ Davis; amount, *1 1.(10" It is admitted by counsel that there are others of the same series in each case, and tliat the above are simply samples. The Commissioner on the part of the I'liiteil States: — Mr. J'eters, can you iiifcu'in the Commissioners when you will probably close this case? 40 ]Mr. Peters: — We are about ^oiiif; into the evidence of prob- able catch. That will take <|uite a c(msiderable time and must, by its nature, be a]»i»licable to a nnmb<'r of other cases. The leiifith of time which it will take will dejiend a trood deal njion my learned friend's cross-examinatimi. but it will take at all events a day. Mr. Dickinson: — 5Iy fiii-nd can torm some jud);meiit of my cross-examination so far. Mr. Peters: — It will be understood that of conr.«e a fioo:' 5° deal of the evidence fjiven in this case will by its nature be ajvjdicable to otliei- cases, and the other cases will be very considerably slunter than this one. iVt tins point the Commissioners ros*-. lo 219 Commissioners under tbe Convention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 7, 1896. At 1:45 the foiiiiuisHioncrs took their scats. Ml". I'etoi's: — T1h> riiitcd States (Jovernment lias furnished lis with ( opies of ci'i'tain ('(HresiKHidence relating to the seiz- ure of the vessel "Carolena" between the Treasury l)ei»art- iiieiit and the ditfen-nt otiicers of tlie vessels, and also the otlieers at Sitka, certain parts of which 1 jiropose to put In. and I will read them to the ("oniniissioners. The copies I Jiropose to put in are c;lev, Treasury Ajti'nt, to the Secretary of the Treasury at Washington, dated Aufiust 18, 1880. ^^ Next is a letetr from Oeorge K. Tingley to Honourable C S. Fail-child, Acting Secretary of the Treasury, dated August IS, 1S,S(). Next is a letter from C A. Abbey, captain of the T'nited States Revenue Marine, to the Secretary of the Treasury, dated August T, 188G, Mr. Dickinson- — May I ask your object in reading this testi- mony? The reascm I eii()uii-e is that I supposed the fact of the seimire was found by the Paris Arbitration. ^ Mr. Peters: — There are several facts that come out. The ('oinniissioner on the \y.\ri of Her Majesty: — The first letter you read related simply to the fiu-t of the seizure. Mr. Peters: — It is important to show the date when the fact of the seizure came to the knowledge of the United Stales tJovernment; that may be material. Also the letters showing the date of the seizure, and there are other facts through this t-orrespondence relating to the 40 opjiortunities they had for (-atching seals at that time, and also relating to h full rejiort, but siinjile extriu-ls, such jiarts as bear ujion the iiarticular cases. 50 r,o Tile next one is a letter from ('. \. .\bbev to the Secretary of the Treasury, dated Sejitember 22. ISSO". 'iXtrai-ts front the log of the revenue steamer "Corwin." .re are s(>vei-al other letters which relate to another jiart of the case, liut which I think I will jiut in (onveniently lieie. Tliey relate to the catch— probable catch — for tlu> venr ISH7. Next is a letter from L. (5. Shejiard, cajitain of on(> of the lUtleiH, dated August 11. 1SS7, to Honourable Charles S. Fail-child, Secretary of the Treasury. Next is a letter from M. \. Healy, cajitain of one of the cut- ters, to the Secretary of tlie Treitsury, dated August 'J7, 1SS7. .\lso extracts from the log may b«' rifjlit in that cimtention. and we may not; and I think the court will see the advisibility of allowinjt that matter to stand. We are sini])ly now showiufi from their own lofj what certain vesselx, both American and Canadian, caufjht in 1SS7. We c.'iu }jet no better evidence tlian the actual statement of their own oflrtcers on that point, and that is our object in tenderinft his evidence. The (Commissioner (»n the part of the Tnited States: — The rij^hts of the cotmsel for the United States are fully reserved. Mr. Dickinson: — This is just a trille different, youi' Hon- our. As to the amount of seals found, there is no evidence that they were caujjht; they may have been purchased of the Indians in accordance with the custom. I sup]>os('d that when your Honours ruled upon that question it would be np- ssels. I can only say what I said the other rimary evidence wilh reyard to some vessels, and wilh regard to ethers I hue not. For instance, here I find il slated that certiun American vessels weiH' seized at that time, I have no evidence with regard lo those vessels iis to what they caujjht oi' where they caught it. The CommissioiH'r on the jiart of the United States:— It will jro In as heretofore, it beiiijf nnderst(MMl that the I'nileil States reserves objections on this fuither jfround in addition to what was sjiecitied llu' otlu'r day. (Mr. Peters continues readin;i from lo>{.) The Commissioners ordered that all the forenoiiifj pai)ers read bv Mr. Peters be printed as Exhibit No. IT), Claim No. 1, C.P. Mr. Peters: — I wish to call the at(«'ntl(in of the coi'rt now to an extract from the r<'p(»rt of the (Jovernor of Alaska, for the fiscal year ISMtt. made to Ihe cnpip'd ill liiltiii^ skills in thv inliind wiitcrs of AliiHkii hy flit' Hi'VciiiU' Cutter "Corwin" lias no doubt Ih'cii fully re- jiortt'd by her zcaloiiH and iiu'ritoHoiiH coiuinaiidor. ('apt. (■. A. Abcy. to the projx'r dcitartiiicnt. and but for tlit' fact tliat lilt' ofticcrH and crews were brouf^lit to Sitka, and, top'thcr with tlu' (iijitured i»ro|K'rty turned over t(> the I'nited States marshal, the siibj«' jiort of X'ictoria? A. — I have. (i. — H('feiriii<> to the certilied copy from your book which I liand you. is that a correct statement from your book? (Wit- ness examines statement.) (i. — Tliiit is made uji from your records? A. — It is. (i.--Aiid for what years? A.— 1SS(! and 1.'S7. (i. — What does it show? A. — It shows the available ves- sels that could be ada])ted and were prosecutiii);; the sealing ''" industry. ti. — That were available at ^'ictoria? A. — That were available at Victoria. actual shcooiiers at that time available for those piirjioses? A. — It does. .Mr. Peters: — 1 propose to put that document in evidence. m ' 1 i!: \l> , mi ! i iih : ii il Hli ; lii! ! i ppp"wiw*p To wifiU'SH: — Tliis is coiiiiiikMl b.v .vou? dvv my diirction. A. — C«iiii|)iK>«l un- lO 20 30 40 vt so 60 Q. — The sdiooiU'i-H tliat .voii have incut ioiicd luTo arc M«-h<>oiH'i'H running; from about 14 touH up to souu'tliiujj; over 100. 1 m'v oui' luM'i' as liifili as 124? A. — That is so. ii. — And thoH«' art' all the srhooutTs of that class available* iu the years 1SS(J iiud KSMT at N'ictoiia? A. — That were uuit- itblc for that industry. (}. — At that tiuu', iu 18S(> aud 1KS7, was tlu'i-e any othei- port of refristration iu the province of Itritish Columbia ex- cept Vicl(U"ia'.' A. — I think not, 1 am not (piite certain (Ui that point. Q. — There are more now? A. — Tlu're are two more now. Q. — You can nuike sure of that fact, can y and 18S7 for coasting and sealing? -^•— I'liless they were going not further than our inland wat- ers. (i.— There might be such vessels? A.— Snmll ones, 4 and ." tons. Q. — And might there not be vessels lying here in 1886 and IS87 that did not clear for coasting or for coasting and seal- ing? A. — No. (.i. — How do you know? so keen. i}. — Hut you Know that outside side of the office Q. — You have no official record beyond the vessels that cleiwed for coaMling. or for coasting and si-aling? A. — We assume. y. — .lust answer that (juestion. whether you have anything which gives you the names of any vessels except those that were cleared for coasting, or for coasting and sealing? A. — We have the nanu's of vessels that may c'uter the port this .ear. and may nor depart for five years — lie continuously in the bone-yard. When ready to depart they get their clear- ances. Q. — 1 think your data here does not give the date of the clearance. d<1 on HiiH list? A.— Yt'H. (i. — TluTf a|)]u'iir to bo Hcvi'ral, the "Doliiliin." flic "Anna lU'fk," till' "Thornton," so that tlu-rc wi-ic three on this list. Hir Hibbert Tiii>|ier: — Th«' "(Sraee" \n on there to«t? Mr. IN'torw: — She in not marked "Hteaiii. liHt. She is on (he lO 20 30 40 T'! SO 60 To witneBH: — Von were abo asked by Mr. DiekiiiHon as to whether there nii^ht not be other vessels that iiia.v not have cleared, and nia.v not have "jot on your n cord, I want you to answer this (luestion from your own knowledge; do you know, or do yon not know, whether (his is the list of t\w sehooners that were aetiially here at tliat (inu*? A. — They were all on the rejiistry books. They are not eaneelled, many of them, to this day. Q. — And were there any others not on the repister? A. — I don't know of any others. This was taken from the reeord. Q. — Exeejit small ones? A. — Small vessels. Q. — I iiieun to say i-xeejit small vessels, S or 1() tons? A. — That is all, we do not call pleasure boats, and boats of eifjht and nine tons. (i. — I mean vessels suitable for sealing;; does this list in- eliide them? A. — That includes them all, so far as I know. Q. — In making nji this list I think you have not put in any larjje ships? A. — The prin<-ipal vessels of this port, larger than those vessels, are all steamers. (J. — You began to make a statement to Mr. Dickinson, which you did not (juit*' ciuiiplete, with regard to there be- ing a demand for schooners at this time. What were you about to say, Mr. Milne? A.— In 18Sfi and 1H87 the value of the sealing industry began to be ap]»reciated; consequently jieo- ple wanted to invest their capital in vesst?ls here, every avail- able craft was jmrchased that I am aware of. The 'Tar- ileiia" and vessels of her class were engaged in other indus- tries before 1SS« and 1887. In 188(; she was a pilot boat. (J. — 188(> is the year she went sealing? A. — Prior to that she was a jiilot. Re-cross-examiuation by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — 1 will ask a question on that new matter, if you ])lease. I believe you w«'re not engaged yourself in the sealing busi- ness? A. — I have no interest, nor ever had, directly or in- directly, in any vessel, boat, or sliij). il. — No (me came to ask you to purchase any? A. — Non«' whatever. (.}. — Or to enquire of you whether yon knew there was any for sale? A. — I don't n'member that they did; someone might have asked me casuallv, ofli( iailv I know nothing about it. ii. — The "Favorite" was a sealing schooner before that, wasn't she? A. — The "Favoritt>," before engaging in th<' tealiiig indiistrv, used to make yearly, and I don't know but semi-yearly, trips to Honolulu. ii. — Engaged in sealing? A. — Engaged in bringing up mol- asses. (J. — Was she engaged in sealing? A. — No, not that I am aware of. (i—l'iior to 18S(i? A.— Prior to 1880—1 don't think so. Q. — In 18S(i was she cm this list of schooners? .\. — I think she wiis engaged in sealing in l88(i. Q. — Will you lie good enough to see if you tind the "Favor- ite" there in 1880? A.— You said jirior to 1880. (J.— Well T say in 188(i? A.— In 1880 she was engaged in sealing. 7.S and 187i(, s(!hooners belonging to the port o." Victoria, British Columbia, began to extend their voyages seaward, iM.-d the migration of the seals became better und»'rstood, that ^ hooji- ciH cruising soiitlu'rly in the spring months would meet the returning seals bound northward; that at ih's time the fol- 50 lowing schoners were engaged in the traflic: "Thornton," ".\iiiia Beck." "Favorite," "Onward" — page :{!>.'?, top paging, ■'!:'»8. marginal? A. — W«'ll, before answering tliat (leust'on. these vessels were engaged, portions of the year, visiting stations on the West Coast. Q. — You made that rejjort in that language? A. — I think so; I think I made that report. Q. — Now I will ask you, wliile you are on the stand, if you will be good enough to look at that, and see if it is an accu- rate statement. mad«' by yon. comnieiicing page '.VX\. .lust look it throuirh and see if yon made it. .V. — (Examining.) In legard to the qut>stion abont the "Favorite" as to which you enquire; previous to her engaging fully in the sealing in- dustry she was sailing between here and Honolulu, and occas ioiially would take cargoes from hero to the west coast, and when it was not the sealing season on the coast, or visiting sealing stations, she was likely to be sent down to TTonolulu to bring up cargo. 13 60 :l!!i!i''!': !26 MIM ]{"i lO 20 Mr. IHrkiiiHoii: — \ (lucslion? (iiicsHoii I'tad. Wltiu'ss: — (Kxiiiiiiiiinn ri-port.) i>, I tliiiik ho, williout <(»u- sullinj^ iny own < opit'H, I fiiiicy IIiIh is all rifilit. Mr. Dickinson: — I oDVi' ns a \n\vi of the cross cxaniination of Mr. Milne, the statement which he says is the correct re- port. The Coniniissioner on the pait of the I'nited Slates: — Mr. Dickinson have yon [ml this into the case? Mr. Dickinson: — I ]>iopose to as a part of the crosH examina- tion, yonr Hononr. Mr. I'eters: — May it phase the Commissioners, ooncerninn the (inestion. jtut by my learned friend, I have no objection to it whatever; bnt. if put in in this way, possibly, on looking; thronnh this report can-fnlly, there may be something; I would like to draw the attention of this witness to. The Commissioner on the i>art of the I'nited States: — Yon want to reserve the '.'inht to re-e.xamine him aboat it at some future time. Ml'. Peters: — Yes. your Honour. Mr. Dickinson: — This statement, if yonr Honours' please, I desire to have !i;o in now as a part of the cross-examination. The Comnnssioner on the part of the I'nited States: — It is rather the opinion <»f the Commissioners, Mr. Dickinson, that, 30 as it comes in only incidentally, and is not a i»art of the foundation of the case, it is not necessary to re-print it. Do the Counsel desire to have it re printed? Mr. Dii'kinson- — We desire to have it no into the appendi.x, yotir Honour, in connection with this schedule that has been put in. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited Slates: — Can the counsel furnish the Secretary with a cojty of it, so it can be marked as an exhibit? 40 Mr. Dickinson: — 'i es, your Honour. The Connnissioncr on the jiart of the I'nited States: — This will ^'o in as e.ic'iibit No. J, Claim 1, V. S. Mr. Dickinson; — The pai-ts I call attention to are at page ;{!(;{ ti)i» i»atrin}r, page :{!tt. omittinjj; the four paraftrajdis on that pajre. the 'ast two paraj^rajdiH on jiajre .'50r», omittiufj all before it on that pafje. and tlien ]ias;es :{!)(!, ;{!»" and ^'.i^ should be read in. I do not care to read this at this jioint. unless yonr 50 Honours desiij' it; it will ko into the record, and will be re- ferred to in th" aifrumcTit. I will not take time to read it in connection with tlie cross examination. The Ciii>rs): I |>r(i|HiHi' (rN, to call liini apiin at a siilmi'- ijiifiil slap* on tli*> (pirstion of tlif av(>rap> fatrli, or i!i<> |ir(is|t<'( tiv«> cati'li. and I think that airan};<-iiii-nt will h«' nioru I'onvi-nifnI. ' otii for the t'oinniissioncrs and in the arran^*-- incnl of till- fvidincc. ii. — Mr. Warren, von wcic born in Prince Kdward Island, I Itelieve? A.— Yes. sir. (j. — Yon came tnit somewhere alioiit isrit! from California, and from thence to Itritish t'ohimbia, did von not? A. — IH3U Id California and IX.'iS to Itritisli ('(duniliia. (i.— Yon \ven( into mining; first? A. — A little. ii. — Then what did .von take np? A. — Took np the water linsincss mostly. (i. — You hold a master mariner's cerlitlcate? A. — Yes. Q. — ^Yhen did von lie^in boat in};, as von call it, in ItritiHli Columbia? A.— i Stilt, about IStW. {}. — From that tinu> down to ISSfi vou were more or less concerneph'r"? A.— And th(> "Crajipler." (J. — What interest had yon in the "(Jertrude"? A. — A».,.nt 1 (jnarter. Then T had the "Doljihin" and "firace." iy — Now how many of these vessels did yon binld? Did von rebuild the "Tliornt(m"? A. — I re-built the "Thornt(m." (i.— What did you do with the "tirace"? A.— Ituilt her. (}.— How about the "Dolphin"? A.— Ituilt her. pler," the "(5er- Irude." the ' ISarbara Boseowitz." (i. — Was the "Leon A." used in sealinu;? A. — No. (i. — Did you mention the "Leviathan"? A. — The "Levia than" in the same wa ii. — \ow what s< I of a vessel was the "('..i'i';"a Bosco- witz"? A. — Well, frei},ditin}j vessel. (i. — But was she sail, or steam? A. — Steam. *.i—l put before you "Claim No. 1, E.xhibit No. l(i, Im'I'*' ciilU'd tilt' "Moniiiiza"; I liiid fdijydUoii Iut; "Miir.v Tav l..r.*' Q. — IHd ,v<»ii own Hint vt'HM«'l? A. — Yt'H. IJ. — Von liiid to «lo with Iut? A. — Ych, had to do w (i.— Th»' "KiiMtU'i"? A.— And the "HuHthr." 1HM7 itii h«-i'. When waH site IohI? A. — She wan hmt in liic Hjirinn of IO 20 30 alin^. tio ovci- tin- list (iircfully a(;ain. |)lram', and Htntc which of thcHc vomhcIh wrnt to Itt'hriii); Hi'a. or wort' ('n);a(;t>d in Hcalinji; in Itt'hriii); sea in tliat yi'>t!i there in '8I>, nor the "Theresa." Q. — What about the "Active"?A. — I am not sure about the 'Active." The "Kate" I don't think was. The "Thornt«>n" was there, the "Onward," the " Caroleiia.' The "Wanetai" I ilon't reiiH'nibt'r. The "Spring Vale,'' the "Win' il" I don't think was there. Q. — The "Triiimjdi," was she in the sea'/ A, ..Idn't be sure. (i.— The "Wanderer"'? A.— I think the "Triumidi" was there in 1MM7, not in ]«Si;. 40 Q. — What about the "Wanderer"/" A. — I don't hardly think she was ther<'. Q. — What about the "Helena""/ A. — I don't remember. Q. — Was she in the sea'/ A. — I don't hardly think It. ii. — "Minnie"'/ A. — 1 don't renumber her beiiin there. Q.— The "Henrietta"'/ A.— \or the "Henrietta." il. — The "Stevens," do you remember her'/ A. — I don't re- member. Q.— The "Mid yon know the "Carolina"? A. — Yes. T knew the "<';iroIena"' very well. Q.— Do yon remember when he was brought to Itritish Columbia? .\. — Well, ! don't just renumber the date, I re- member I was here about the time. '"A 22ij (j. — IMd .voii know for wlioiii hIio wiih built? A. — A iutboii llitil we rail •liiiiiiiit- •Ioih'h. (l — What wan hIic UKcd for lliHt? A. — Wlicii mIu' Hint ( nine lifi-*', 118 near aM I can rciiu-inlu-r, hIic carrit'd coal. voii H«H' Jut wiicii hIw ciiiiic Iiimv? A. — V»"k. I »\\\\ ' tiiiic wiu'n hIic >.vaH caiT.viiif; coal from Nanainio 10 .voii know Iht when Mr. ri'i|iiliart owned her? \. her when nIu- waH in poHm^HKioii of 20 30 40 50 60 was on tlie wavH? A. — I A.— I did. woi-k that when hIu' did. I dont ti.— IMd hci- at th* liere. (i.— Did — I did. Q. — And ,voii did know the pilotN? A.— I did. (2. — What did von know altout the vcHsel? Have .von ex- amined lier at all carefully, or did .von wee her freciiiently? A. — I have seen her freciiieiitly, y«'H. (i. — Are yctii able to Hjieak powitively in connecticm witli the veHnel iih to her rin and Imild? A. — Y^i'B, I Hhonid nup- ])()He HO. (I. — Wlint chiHH of veHHel wiiH Hhe? A. — Hlw was a very pxid veHMcl, Hinall Hized, one of th<>He Hharp-bnilt, sea-^oin}; model. (2. — What wan her Htandint; an a ve88«'l. for instance, an n sailer? A. — She wan conHidered a very n«*«'d Hiiiler. (i. — In what condition was nhe in when tlie jdlots had lu'r? A. — Well, they Hjient a nood deal of money «>n her, I think U wnK in 1SS4. (I. — You remember their re]mirin)r her? A. — I reiiM'mber they |>nt her on the ways, cut her in two, hauled the two ends n]iart, buildintr a section in Iietween. Q. — That wtiH wlu'n rniuliart owned her? A. — That was when rr<|uhart owned her. Q. — Did voii see her wlien slu did. (i— At that time? Q. — Did you see the (i. — Did you see liei remember of examining her after ed her wlieii nhe was oiienealin,t; and freijilitinp and such thiii{;s. H. — Where did you seal for the first period? A. — Sealed on the w« st coast of Vanconv«'r Island. (I. — And when did you extend your sealing operations? A. — Well, I didn't go info Itehrlng Sea not until IHHO. I sent a vessel in IHHo, but the captain and mate had a disagreenu'nt, and they didn't get there. Q. — And in IXSo von turned vour attention to Hehring Sea for the tirst time? A.— I did. Q. — And what do you say about the vessel sent there? A. The captain and mate disagiv<'d about something and they spoiled the trip, came back without going there. Q. — What vessi'ls did vou take vourself int<» Behring Sea after that? A.— Well, the "(irace," the "Dolphin," "Anna Heck" and "Thornton" in ISHfl. Q- — And before that time are yon able to say whether those engaged in the sealing business in British Columbia were in the habit of going to B<'hring Sea before ISS.^? A.— Yes. was done? A. — I was tinished? A.— sh<> was tinished; I exainin- and wlien thev were biiild- A.— I did. A. — Yes, I saw liii'li!!: ^1' i! 'Ill m I lilii ■ ' ■ ''1(11 ]''■ in it M I i! i'lilllliUi fl"' MiMjtij 30 230 llu'ie was, i think t!u! "Mnr.v KlU'ii" was in tlic sim about ISS-t and issn. *.i. — \V«'II, witli (1k' except i(in of the ".Maiv Kllcn" i ask .von wlictlu'i" tlioso who were enjtajied in sealinj; — |troseculin<; that indtislry — were in tlie liahit of tjoinj; to that sea liefoie lSSr>? A. — Outside of tliat. I tliink not. There was an Am- erican vessel or two. Q. — Wiu'U did tile sealinfj Itusiness open in l{ehrinn the sealiiifj venture? First as to time, before that liow mucli of the year? A. — We spent before tliat about three months. (i. — Then with the I!elirin<; sea work, how much more ad- ditional time in the year could you kt'ep your vessels runniu}'? .\. — We run the time up then to ei}ihl or nine months. Q. — What etlect had that upon the valui' of the vessels? .\. — Here it made the vessels come more in demand. Q. — Increased the value? A.— Increased the value. 20 Q. — On account of the iiureased employment, is that so? A. — Yes, that is so. Q. — What happened in connection with the increase of shippiu}; here? Where were the siiijis obtained after this? A. — Well, they were obtained in ditVei'ent places, but jwin- cipally in Xova Scotia. (■i- — lint when did they tirst commence to come in from Dutside, so to speak? A. — lS8t; is the tirst year 1 think. Q. — And you told me some of the names of the vessels that came iu ISSti to rejjister in this p there were vessels in from this jiort? A. — I think there was two, if not more; two is about ,il! I remein bep. '•^ ■ m 10 20 .^0 ■tn 5'^ r.(j 231 (i.— Ill lSS(i llicy w<'i<' in llic scii? A. — NVt 11, tlicic wii>» scvcnil in ISSd. iy — Now in rcjiiird (it I lie vcar ISSU will viin sliilc from lliiil cxliiliil lluil liiis lifcn shown von ii'<-tVn'inv; t*> "Clniin No. 1. Kxliibil No. HI. (J.H.") liow nnin.v vessels wore Inonfilil into (liis ]»oit from Sjin !''>'!'.;!j;:^lSMti and ISS". Witness: — Prior to ISSti a.'.d ISST, some of thes.' wei-e in seveial years before. (-i -How many from Nova Seotia in that same period? \. iMime of these vessels I can't from memory state where lliey did come from. Sir Ilibbe't Tnpper: — It appears in the coinmn oiiposile. (■i. — Well, fajilain, in yonr dinct examination yui said Uiat the majority of vessels that were bronj^ht to this port came from Nova Scotia in the yi ais ISSti and ISS7? .\. — The majority in iSStl and 1SS7. (J. — The majority of the vessels <'anie fi'oin Nova Scotia, (hat were bronyht from outside ports? .\. — The majorilA of the vessels that were brought in. <^ — In those yens? .\. — In those years. I think so. ii- — The .Xmtrican vessels were then bronjiht in years be- fine? .\. — Yes. the most of them. be-iin on Ihe first of .March. ont eight months, after we commenced to go into the sea. Q.— That was in ISSfJ? A.— Yes. ii. — >Vere your vessels out eight months in 1880? A. — I don't know as they were out quite, but they must have been very n(>ar. Q. — What time did they start that year? A. — In the neigh- borhood of the first of Manh. Q. — AVas there one of those vessels that stayed out eight 20 months? A. — I don't know whether tlu're was or not. Q. — Was there one that stayed out seven nmnths? A. — Yes, I think so. Q.— Which one? A.— Well, I think the "Anna Beck" was out seven montlis, anyway. (i. — Was that th< only one? A. — I know we came home early that year on account of the seizures; I did for one. Q. — Can you tell me that cajitain? A. — What is that? (.}. — Was there a vessel out f(»r seven months of-your ves- sels? A. — I thought I had a memorandum here of the time 30 the vessels came back. ii. — y,y 'U, no matter abont it. Caiitain, I suppose it will appear here or. the records of the court. Now, in regard to tl'e "Carolena," you speak of her as a good sailer, wlien she was in the hands of the jdlots, and you valued her readv for Hea at |i4,0()(». Was that correct? A.— That was whiit I vahu'd lier after she was lengthened. ii. — >'ow, will you explain exactly what you mean by "ready for sea?" A. — Wi'll, vessel ''ready for scu" is when idi'/ is properly caulked, jsroperly |)ainted, anchors and chains, 40 I'verything necessjiry for a vessel to be seaworthy, not includ- Ir.g any outfit. ii. — l>o you mean all the blacksmithing, ship chandlery; and that work, done completely for the seastm? .\. — Yes. ii. — Do yon include her sealing outfit? A. — Xo. Q. — There was one other (|Uestion I wanted to ask you, Captain, with regard to th«' years prior to IHSft, whilst it is on my mind. Now j>rior to \SHii you sjiid that the vessels Avere engaged but three montlis, what were fliey doing fin? rest of the time? A. — The sealing vessels? SO (i.— Yes? .\. — Well, the most of them w«'re trading oil and skins and such tilings; some of them did freighting. ii. — \Vere they always occupied in that business? A. — No, I don't know that fliey all were. ii. — .V majority of them? .\.— T'rior lo ISHti I think a nm- jority of them. did it increase their value if they were em- time? A. — They could make more monev Go (i.— And how ployed all that sealing. Q. — Did they make more mcncy at sealing? A. — I think so, as n rule. ii. — Now to the return to fix n sealing outfit; what do you mean by alioard the vessel. Q. — Hoats? .\. — Provisions, thing necessary for suitidies. ii. — Do yon mean wii-n you say "ready for sea" sails pack- ed and in order? A. — Yes. Carolena"? You spoke of that? A.— Hupplies guns, ammunition, and anv- lo 20 30 40 r.o 233 Q. — And paintod? A. — C'nulkiu^ and such things, cvory- thiny n-pairi'd, all lepaii-s made for the Heasou. Q. — Now (;a{)tain, if tlie "Carolona" had to have, say a tluiuHand siiiuglcK driven into her seams, what would you say about that. \\'ould that be part of her outfit or would that als(» be included? A. — Sometimes it is necessary in the lin- iufi and the inside skin. ii. — That you would include as being ready for sea? A. — Sometimes it is a very good thing but I do not know. Q. — You do not (juite understand me, would you include 1'Jiat in her outfit, would you include that in the cost of her sealing outfit? A. — Well, sometimes you could drive shingles in the inside skin of the vessel and that would help hor greatly in going to sea, it >yould stiffen her up. Q. — Do you think that is part of her sealing outfit? A. — I do not think it is. Q. — Then if the "('arolena'' had a quantity of shingles driven into her, you would say that you would include that in your ^-1,0(M) valuation? A. — If she needed it I would con- sider it so; if she required it. Re-direct examination by Sir Charles Hibbert Tupi)er: il. — ('aptain Waren, you were asked in reference to vhe vessels that came frciui San Francisco. For how many years did that sui)ply last? A. — Well, there were odd vessels came from tlieic for a number of years. Q. — When did it stop? A. — Well there has been nn odd vessel I think coming along, but 1 do not just know when they did ston, there have been some since 1887. Q. — Well comi)ared witli the supply from the East which lias formed the main market for buying. A. — All after 1887, (lie bulk of the vessels came from the East. il. — What class of vessels were those as a rule that came from San Francisco"' First as to age, and then as to the «-!ass generally. Were they poor vessels or good vessels? A. — Tliere were some go<»d vessels coming from San Francis- co and some of them pi'etty old vessels. (i. — Had you occasion 10 g() to that market to look for them? A.-^I went down tlu'ie in the fall of 1870, I think, to buy a vessel and I had i|' -a liig look among them. Q.— How do (he chiss of issels from tliiit port compare with tlie class of vessels obtaimd fnnii flic lOast? A. — The most of the vessels in San Francisco ar< mostly built for freighting purposes, and with some e.\« > pticms not vessels (hat I should lilve well for the sealing business. g. — ij,it the vessels from outside, or rather the vessels wliicli you got from the East, were, as a rule, built for fish- ing? A. — Yes. for llshing and sea going purposes. g.— You were asked witli reference to how long the ^(■ssels stayed out in ISSCi. did these vessels you had to do \\illi in ISSn stav out tlieir full voyage, or did they conu> back before (he seasim for sealing was' over? A.— I think tliat the most of llieiii came iuick before. Q — Do you know as a matter of fact what brought tlieiu home? A.— I know what brimght me home, and that was the seizures. Q._Oiie vessel was seized in that season belonging to you, was siie not? A. — Yes. Q.— .\iid the other v»'ssels came home soon after you ar- rived? A.— Some of them came shortly after. Q._\Vliat vessel did you come home on? A.— I came home on flie "I>olpliin." Q.— What time? -\.— 1 left the sea on the 12tli of August. Q._Wliy did you leave' A.— On acount of the seizures. Q._You were asked as to whether these vessels made more nionev bv sealing than in coasfing. T want to ask you. Tap tain WaVrcn. how maiiv vessels had you in 188fi. sealing? You had the "Thornion," (he "Anna IJeck," the "Sayward," iir mi'. ■iii'h m ■ ■{ t •■:'■ j- j .|||i|l!l ^1: n - ~.. .,J!!i»^«J w nhu ■ ■] i 30 40 SO 60 >.'<» 10 234 till' "liuHtlor," and what oUut vcsbcI, I Miink yon had the "(Jnu'if" and tht' "l)(>li)hin" niakin.i; seven in all? A. — I lliinU I had onlv six. Q.— The "Thonilon" was seized and the "Knstlei" did no into the sea at all? A. — No. Q-— Was she lost that yeai-? A.— Xo, she was lost the next year. Q- — The "Thornton"' was seized and yon came home, yon have told ns, earlier than you would have, had it not been for the seizure? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What profit did you obtain from that s(>ason's sealiu;;;; notwithstandinir all these cireumstanees, what was made dear by you above the expenses? A. — Somewhere about Q. — ('ould you make that much money coastiuff, or have you ever done it eoastintr at the same time and with the same vessels? A. — Not with the sanu' vessels. Ke-cross-examination by Mr. Lansinjj: Q. — In your slatenu'nt of valuation of the "Carolena" you 20 said she was worth $4,(»0(» when n-ady to po to sea, would you in« lude in that, ffi.^n for rejtairs of three sails? A. — If it was i)ut on the sails before she left, I should say so. Q. — Would you include in that also S yards of No. 5 duck? A. — Not if it was supplied for use afterwards. If it went on before she left and if it was needed I would inclur'e it. Q. — And would you include the twine? A. — It is the same thing. Q. — W<»uld you include in that 221 i»ounds of castiuRs? A. — I do not think so, ! would include what the vessel required for making her seaworthy. Q. — Would you include the castings in nuiking her ready for sea? A. — I should not include it as bearing on her |4.00(». (i. — Von say you would not? A. — No. Q. — Would you include it in the sealing outtit? A. — I do not know, myself, what it would be for. Q. — Would you includ<- rejjairs to two stoves in yotii- ^4,- 000 estimate? A. — Well, one stove at any rate, might be- long to the sealing outttt, an ordinai'y vessel would not recjuire two unless she was going sealing. (i.- Don't tiiey have one in the cabin and one in the lore- castle? A. — It is not necessary to have two stoves unless they are sealing. (j. — Would you include zinc for tlu' cabin Hoor? A. — Tlia* would be under the stove, I sup]>ose. I think the vessel should be fitted with oiu' stove and what is necessary for it. Q.— Tliat would l)e included in the |4.000 ready for'sea? A. 1 suppose so. Q. — I{"j(airs to deck pi)ies and blacksniilli repair's, would you inchule this also? A. — That all depends as to wiiethei' it was for the sealing crew, the vessel should have one stove complete. (). — And what do you say as to the rejtairs to the deck pipes? A. — It might belong to the scaling crew. (.i. — \\'hat do you mean? .\. — Foi- the convenience vas for sujtplies. (i. — Now. with regard to the item for itnnip leather, was that part of the sealing outfit? A. — That might be extra gup- plies that belonged to the vessel. H. — "L'inch .Vmei'ican rope 14 iiounds," is> that jtart of tlu- •icaliiig outfli? A. — No, I should say tl'.at was for su])plies, iind was rove oft lu'foi'c she left. (I. — Would if be customary on a sealing vessel of that size to caiiy as much rope as tliat foi' supplies? .\. — <), yes, H'fiing for ;i long voyage you would re<|uii'e quite a. consider- I Ide >|uan(ity of rojie. and spare canvas too. ("aptain Warden, I will s'low yoii N'oiicher No. It of It'>hibit 10, (his is a bill frtim .Mct^uade & Sons. an would be part of her sealing outfit? A.— It might be. ..<: jl 1' 'u ■' m ! I il-Ni ■■•^ 20 236 Q. — 1)(H'H tlu' ('iiptiiin of )i v«'s8('l c;('iu'riill.y biiv his own chi'oiionu'fcr? A. — I tliink sit; Homctiiues. Q. — J 8 it a nsiiiii ciistoin? A. — I do not know wlietlicr it in a HHnal cnstoni or nitt. f-i. — Yon liave bocn a hwnv Hlilp owner and yon have st'v«'ral i-lainis bcfoi't' tliis Coniniission? A. — I have scveial. Q. — How many? A. — Five, I think. Q. — Now, is it cnstonnuy for tlu' (•a])lain to brin of Exhibit 1(). a bill for ifSi\, it is a bill for shij) chandlery mainly. Will you jioint out the items in that bill that belong to the sealing outfit? A. — There are a nuniber of comi»ases used for outfit, but I do not know whether the one stated there is one of them or not. Q. — Read ont the items that you are sure belong to the sealing odtfit? A. — 1 think that bill ]n'obably all belongs to the sealing outfit. Q. — That part of it amounting to ^.'17 was for sealing out- fit? A— Yes. Q. — There are two bills attached to that same voucher. Read the second bill attached to it; Kxhibit N<». 10. and see how much of that bi'longs to th(> sealing ontfit? A. — It seems to me that parr of it belongs to the sealing outfit, and part of it belongs to the supplies of the vessel for the voy- age. Q. — That is the best you can say. You cannot point out the sealing outiit? A. — 1 could point out some of them, there are lines and hooks and different things there, that I know must belong t(» the sealing outfit. Q. — I wish yon to I'ead them out? A. — The rop«' might be used for the vessel or it might be used, some of it, for (he sealing outfit, and the seaming palm might belong to the ves- sel, the copper tacks, the hoops, the line thread rope, the cod lines are for the sealing outfit, and I think the rest of it would be for supjdies. Q. — Captain, \ have shown you several of these vouchers, have yon ever seen them before? A. — I do not think that I l)erused them, but I nmy have seen them before; that is, 1 do not think I have piM-nsed the items particularly. Q. — Where did yon get your infornuition when you made ont the claim for the "Carolena" in Ottawa 0.1 the 2Sth of November, 1HS7? A. — I very likely made Ihem from vouch- <'rs; I nnide them fnnn the totals of the vouchers, I suppose, but I do not thijik I went through them very particularly. 40 50 Oo '-n m (i. — Will ,V(Hi swt'iir voii «'v«'i' hiiw tlu'm* voiiclu'rs Itefoiv? A. — It would b" piv(1,v hard for me to do that. A pile of voiuhci'H \ven> sent 1<» me, but whether them' ari the Mamu or not 1 would not like to Hwear. (\. — What did you do with thewe voucherH? A. — 1 sent tlieni baek or bi-ousht them back, as near as I remember; I would not be sure, but I know the.v should have come back. (\. — It was from these v(»uchers tliat you made up the price of ftroceries in Ihe bill at *r>!tS.»iO? A. — I do n<»r remember "^ just how it was. I do not know whether I used the vouchers or not, or whether I made it up from the Ktatenienr. Q. — I show you the case (»f (Jreat Itritain before the Fur Seal .\rbitration. at i)a(je 1;?7, American Kdition, mar(;tnal pafiinj; t. Exhit)it "A " "Value of the schooner '('arolena' at llie time of seizure — ;rroceries. ^r)!>S,(!(l." How did you make 11]) that. ('ai»tain? A. — From memory now I can hardly say. Mr. lU'lyea and I were makinj; them up. i\. — Mr. llelyea was with you at Ottawa? A. — He was with me at Ottawa. -° Q.— Did you have these same voudiers there? A. — I had a lot of vouchers there, but whether these are the same or not I do not know. Q. — Did yoii make ii]t the ammunition account In the same way. from voudiers? A. — I do not remember of K(>iiii^ liirouiih the vouchers at all. Q.— Did you make \\\i lh»> value of the shotguns fnmi the vouchers? A. — I do not know that I did from the vouchers; I ratlier think that I did it from the statement. (J. — Who made uj* tlie statement? A. — It was i;ent to nie, •^ 1 suj)i>ose it was l)v .Mr. Munsie. I am under the impression lliat it was tnade fiom th" statement, but the vouchers were .«cnt on. I know that. Q. — You swore to this statement, did you? A. — I su])po8e I stated to the best of my knowh'dge. Sir Charles llibbert Tupi)er: — That is a solemn declaration. It is hardly riylit to imt it in the way you do; it is a solemn declaration to ilic best of his infoiiuation and belief. I am an.xious that the record should show the document that you 40 are e\aminin}r him about, and it does not ai>pear to me that i( will do that, unless you make the statenuMit that it is a solemn declaration. This docinnent is the declaration of J. D. Warren befjjiniiint;, "I solemnly and sincerely declare as follows." KP [ I hhiJ! 'i 'lO |{y Mr. Lansing: <\. — Did y(m make uj) all these items from vouchers? A. — To the best of my recollection, I do not remember yoiug tiiroU}{h the vouchers. <\. — You didn't >jo through the vouchers? A. — I cannot say, it is so lony; auo. Whether I used the vouchers to check olf the statement or not, I cannot say. Mr. Helyea was with me at the time, and 1 suppose he was the principal one iu making' tlu'm up. . (i. — Did you have a statement from Mr. Munsie of all these items? A. — I think so. I tliink I had a statenu'ut from all of them. (i. — You did not retain that? A. — No, whatever I had I left them there I think. (i. — Please look at this document entitled "Statement of I lie ' ("arolena,,' .\(»vember 2Mh, 1SS7," and say if that is your statement? A. — I believe it is a statenuMit of mine. <\. — Kxliibil "A" of pajje :$. of the Aitpendi.\, Itritish f'ase. Is that vour st.itement? A. — It is very hard for me to re- niember Ihe amounts. (i.— .\iid what about the remainder of Exhibit "A" is that yours? ,\.— I expect it is. 'i }!■ I i III • i; 1; i1 ■ !■■ I i}. — I rt'jid ,v(»ii Aiiicl*' 7, of Htiitciiicnt of Ww ItiitiHli ciihc, hciii;; tlif A|i]i<'ii(lix (if tlic Sdu-dnlc of cljiiiiis, and I iisk ,vou if .von uiiuk' lli>' followinj,' stiih-nicnf in tlic dtMlai-iition nnuh; l).v yon on tlio listli dii,v of Xovcnibcr in tlic ("ity of Ottawa. Tlu' following is tlic Htatcnicnt: "7. Tiiat lu'ivlo annexed, nniikrd 'A,' is a slatcnicnt of tlie articles coniprisinfj tlic onllit of tlic scliooncr "<*ar<»]cna" on licr dcparfnrc on licr said vovajfc. and all of wliicii I verily beli«'vc were on hoard tlic "Carolcna" at llic time of licr Nciz- '° nre. cxccjitin;; only what liad been conHnnicd in tlic ordinary course of tile voyajfc, to<,'ctlicr with the valnc of said articles also of the aiiioiint of ]ireniiunis ]iaid for insnraiic<> on (he linll, outfit and caifjo of the said "('arolcna" for the said voy- age; also of the aiiioniit of wajjcs ]iaid to the crew and hunt- ers on hoard the "Carolcna" up to the time of such seizure; also the cxjicnscs of the mate and jiart of the crew in retnrn- inj; to the city of Vi Outfit;— Oroceries |r)!)S.tiO 30 Ainnnition 17;{.;{t Six shot f,'uus .worn Five riHcs 1:{(U)0 Gun implements and to(ds 17.2!) I>ry <;oods 71. .'57 Ship chandlery ;{7(!.s;? Water casks 12.(10 ChroiKniieter ir.(l,(MI(l Four canoes and outfit 24S..''»(» One boat 1(»(».(»0 40 Salt Sl.OO <'oal and wood for fuel .'{7.(!2 Cookinjj stove and utensils 70.00 .Miscellaneous 42.:{4 Cash on board and unaccounted f;o. . :irt2I)i) 5 \Va<;es jiaid to himtcrs and crews for voy- •AjU' up to time of sci/.urc l.H;{2.22 Part of crew havinii lieen sent to San Fran- cisco by i'liitcd Stales aiitliorilies board fen- (i\e men at San Francisco and i»assaut' iiioncy I hence to \'ic- toria 71.72 l*!.issa}xe money and expense of male, James IJlakc from Sitka lo \'ij; voiir opinion sih iu (Iu- viiliu' of Hie "<':irolt>nii" ili yon requested to do when yon went to Ot- tawa so far as llr. Munsie was concerned? Tlie ('(niimissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Sir Charles, how many times is this witness going to be examin- ed? Are yon not o|)ening ni> a new topic now? Sir Charles Uibbert Tnjiper: — Xo, your Honour, I think my learned friend, Mr. Lansing, will agree with me that this is a matter arising out of his cross-examination. The Comiiiissiom r on The jiart of the United States: — I merely ask yon if you are not opeiiiiig a new subject, and if you are not I have nothing to say. Sir Charles llibberl Tujiper: — I am simply examining on a point brought out for the first time on tiie cross-examination of my learned friend, Mr Lansing. If there was any irregu- larity it was in my learned friend going info tin- matter on cross-exaniinaticMi. The «'oniiiiissi(mer on the part of the I'liUed States: — My only object was to save time. -Q Sir Charles Ilihbert Tujiper: — 1 only desire to show how "* Caiitain Warren came to make this declaration and the pro- priety of every statement he made. The <"onimissioiier on the part of the I'liifed Sfaf«'s: — That is evidence that is ]ierfinent. Sir Charles llibberl Tapper: — To do that I must bring Cap- tain Warren (o Mcltn-ia before we get to Ottawa and see under what ciicirnsfances he nia<1e this statenieiit on his in- formation and belief. (To the witness.) Q. — Cajitain Warn n, before going to Ottawa on that oc- casion, I understand you to say you saw .Mr. Munsie, and oth- ers interested in the \essels thai had been seized, is that li^tht? A.— Y>'S. (i.— What were you r((|uested by them to do? A. — Well, i.i the first jdace, each of the claimants made out their own stateiiieiilH here, and I think they were all sent on to Ottawa we consulted afterwards, and concluded that it was best for 40 Oo • :i 'i'; lil .r ,i!1 I'l '(■•^r^R^ • iu»»('.:j 240 H()iiu> iH'i'Kon to ^o llu'iH', HO tliiit, tf tlicrc W118 liny otlitT in fofiiiatiou wan'^"(l 11 pt ihoii roiild Ih' on tlic Hpot to fflvi' it, iind I WIIH H('h'ft«'(l. (i. — To what placo in Ottawa did ,vou taiio uncli informa- tion aH .vou liad? A. — To tlif (iovcrnnicnt. ii. — Wlio anHi8t«'d ,v«)n tlu-rc in |)i-*'imrinf; tlnw claiinH. A. — Mr. ll»'l,v('a. (i. — And an olliccr of tlic dcjiartnn'nt? A. — 1 don't liardi.v tliinlv tli('r«> w«H. Mr. Hclvca was rt'coinnuMnh'd to nic l»,v 10 til*' H(>nonrabl<> Mr. PoHtor. Q. — Did not an otticcr of tlic d*>|>artni*'nt aHHist .von in i>r«'- IHirin^ tlu' <'lainiH? A. — I tliinlv wo liad tlic numt of it to do onrwIvoB. Q. — Mr. Tlclycn was at tliat tiiiic fonnHcl wiih ho not? A. — Hi* waH, ycR, and is Htill. I tliiiil<. Q. — And tlu' roHiilt of tliat was in ('onnci'tion witli tin* caHc of tlu' "rarolonn." tliat yon were adviwd to niak«» this Holcnin di'claration about wliich yon liavc lM'«'n oxaniinod? A. — \vn. Q. — Mr. LaiiHinf; read Section 7. wliicli statcH certain factH 20 on yonr belief. liOoking at that docnnnMit. are there not other iiaraKrapIiH in that declaration alHo on yonr infornia- tion and belief, and also Htatin),' that yon were inftn-nied by William MnnHie of the accuracy of <"ertain charueH in tlu? statement. Exhibit "A" that was read to yon? .\. — Yes. Q.— That is so? A.— Yes. Q. — From whom was this information obtained. For In- stance when yon state 'That this statement comprises the out- fit of the sclKHiiier, and iill of which 1 verily believe.' wnR that a bald statement of yonr own. or had von information on 30 it? .\. — That was information from Mr. ^fnnsie. Q. — From Mr. Mnnsie direct? A. — Yes. Examination of Mr. Warren closed. Charles Kprinf^, of the City of X'ictoria, a witness piodiic 'd on behalf of Oreat Itritain, was duly sworn: Direct examination by Mr. Iteiqne: Q. — Mr. Sprinji, wliere do yon reside? A. — In ^'ictoria. y. — How lonj; have yon lived in N'ictoria? A.— All my life iilmost. Q. — I believe yon are in the sealing business and have bei'n for SI number of years? A. — I have been up tt> four years aj,'o. (i. — When did you commence to be interested in the seal- inj; business? .\. — In the snninier of 1SS4. Q. — And up to fcMir years ap» yon remained in tliat Im.si- ness ? A . — Continuously. H. — I believe yon owned a number of sealini? scliooners, did yon. A. — I did. (J. — Take the c(Miiiiiiinicatioii in Exhibit 1(1. and state in which of these schooners therein mentioned vou were iiitiT- ested in ISSK and 1SS7? A.— Three. Q.— Which were they? A.— The "Favorite" the "K.ite" and the "Onward." Q.— Was the "Kate" in Reining Sea in 18S(!? A — \<>. Q.— Was she in ItehriniJ' Sea in 1HS7? A.— I will not be positiv«'ly certain, but T think she was. Q. — Do yon know any of the schooners which are mention- ed ill that exhibit. 1(!, and which cleared for Hehriiifi Sea, and wliicli did not fjo to Hehrinn Sea; others. 1 am only sure about "Kate." She was not in there in ISSti. Q. — Were the vessels in which you were interested fo:- sale in 1S80 or in 1SS7. A.— Not that I was directly interested in. No. Q. — Did you know the Carolena in 188()? A. — Yes. 40 50 60 241 10 20 t|. — Wliiit oiM'iiHioii liad ,v«u of knowing Iht? A. — Veil jiiHl h,v wciiif; litT ^o in anil on! of llit> Imrbor, and nic>-tin^ her down on tlio wt'Ht coaMt at tinicH. H. — Wfi't' j'ou WW on luT? A. — Yes. Q. — Had .vou Hiinicicnf knowlt'djjc (»f tlu* "Caroh'na "to form an opinion hh to Iut vainc? .\. — Yes. (2. — Wiiat did von conHidcr tier valn»> for mtilinK purponon to licr ovvnoi" tlu'n? A. — At tinit linn' I W4»nld cortaiidy Ha,v slu> waH worth any wlicn' in the nci^idtorhood of y:{,S(l() or l||t4,(l(IO. (J. — Will yon utatf from yonr cxiu'rii'iu'c wliat in tlic valn«' of niattrcHm'H and bfddiiiK i»**'d by t\ wliitc crow on Hoalin); . H('lioon«'r8, that !« fjoncrally Hjicakinj!;? A. — I'wd by tlio nit>n? Q. — YcH, ownt'd and nwd by Iho men? A. — They nii^jlit vary, the nuittrcHH wonld bo valin-d at anything fnmi ftt to Ifld. In dopcndt'd on what tlu> men felt lik(> Hpondin);. Q.— That is |r) or |l(> for oach man? A.— Yes, for each man. Mr. Hieqne: — We wonld lik«' to reserve the ri^jht to recall tliis witness on (lie t|n(>stion of cat<'h. We do not i>ropose to examire him now on that qnestion. 40 Oo Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: A.— ii. — Were tlu're any mattresses (m tlie "T'nrolena?" I tliink it was wry likely, but I do not know positively. (.}. — Do yon know anything abont it? A. — No. (.}. - (snally the men furnish tlieir own bedding on a seal- inf{ scliooner, don't tliey? A. — Yes. Q.— They were not a jmrt of tlie ship's equipment were tliey? A. — \\'ell no, not to my knowledge. Q.— You are a claimant liere, are you nor before tliis cinn- mission? A. — Yes. Q — How many claims are you interested in? .\. — Five. (J. — \V!)en were you on the "<*arolenai?" .\.--!n IS^"). Q. — I'etore she was a sealer? A. — H was in the sjirir..^ of IS8(i, r think. (J. — VMnre was she then? .\. — Slie was in \ ictori.i Ik le. It WIS while she was at anchor, before leivina; I was also on lier down on the coast. il. — Where abouts on the west coast? .\. — New Thatez. (i. — What time in 1880? A. — Early in the sprinjj;, I should tliink about .\pril. Q. — Had you sailed down tliere? A. — Yes. (J. — On wliat? A. — On some of my own scliooneis, I do not know exactly whicli one. I went on some of my vessels. Q. — Was that as late as February or ^lanh of that year? -V. — I wonld not say, but it was soniewliere in the neiglibor- liood of March or April. Q. — You could not fix the date you went di>wn tliere rn your schooner? \. — No. ti- — fan you fix the date you went on board tlie "Car- oleua"? .\. — Yes. till' li'iidin^ poHt. (i.— Tliiit WIIH Ffliniiii.v .nd for Indians. (i — It is not a favorite .irticle of diet for white hunlers? A. — There is no particular objection esjiecii'llv anions the In- dif.llK. (^ --Did ^■oll see some jiilot bread here that you esiimaled was landed f!om the "t'arolena" from this particular trad- iixji post? -V. — Y( s. Q. — Now. wlio was there on tlie "Carolena" that you visited? .\.— (n\<)i rhoimts. (i. - V\ Ir.il was his duties on tlie "("arolena"? .\. — I think he >\as master. . — Is lie a resident of X'ictona? A. — Yes. (]. — lie lives here now? A. — Yes. (}. — .Viid he was there on the "( 'arolena" in .Marcli. IS'^'I, It tiiat tradiuf; jiost? A. — Yes, as near as I can remembi'V. (^- JHd he tell you what he came up to this tradin;; post for in the spring ;>t 1M,S(J? ,\. — No. (). — Whdi did .\eu uo to see lier, or rather whian did you no to see oi! board tl t'arolena"? A. — It was just a mattcc if a visit I paid her, that was all. 40 SO 60 243 (j. -I>l "t'aroli-na?" -Vl'H. il. — Did you hi'i- any lioatH >{oiiifj; lo and fioni I In- "Caro- li'na" wliili" yon witi- llii-ri'? .V. — I would not nay lliat I did. (i.— Would yon sa,\ Mini you did not? Wlial \h yonr Iti-Kt. iiilii'f aliont flial? .\. — It '\h very liki-ly. Tlii-ri' iniiHt liavo lii-i'ii Kiiini-, willionl my making; an ohsiTvation of it. H. — W'lii'i'i' did yoii Hlav at tiiis lradiii;i; jiosl yonrMi-lf? WiiH it oil your own HilioomT? A. — \Vi' wi-ri- travi-lliiiK in 20 * JiiiocM at till' liiii*'. HO lliat I liail to Htay iihIioi-c at nielli. iy — Wi'ic yon llirrc wlii'ii tlii' "t'arolcna" put onl of the port? A. — Yi'M. i-i. — l»o you know in what dii-i-rlion mIii' Nailed? .V. — Hlu' wi'nt ri^ht out to si-a. ii. — Did you sec any IndiaiiH alioni ln-r at the tiini' hIio waH llicri'? A. — On hoard Iiit? Q. — YcH? A. — ( did not oIihitvi' at all. I Hiinply knew slif WIIH nmufi to Ht'u and I niadi' no partirnlar ohsi'i-vatioiiK. (i. — Do yon know of lii-r hnyiiin K'l.v ciiiioi'H tluTc at tlu; ^o '•""' ■ hnl al not at that time. (i. — Do you know anylhinj{ about the priee of canoes at that jioint at that time?' A.— No. i}. — Von do not know what they cost there? A. — No, not 50 thire. . — Do you know what thev would cost any where alonfj Well, )f course, there 60 that coast? A.— Yew. (J.— What would they cost! are ditTerent kinds of canoes. Q.— I know, but just },'ive yonr own statement of the kinds of canoes and the lu-ice. A. — Sealinn canoes I have known to be bonsrht at Iroiii ^ti lo ijf.SO and ^40. Q. — What were the dimensions of the hinhest jirice canoes? A. — They wmild all be about the same size, it would all de- jiend on the stability, ciuality and form of build. Q.— The pi c.'inoe mifilit be the same size as the ?4(i ones? A.— Yes. U. — What was the best material of which canoes w'-re built and whicti bron^'ht the hiifhest ju'ice of ?p40? .\. — It is not the malerifil. it is I he work, modelliii}! and the stability. (). — What makes the difference between the low jirice and llie hiirli jiriic canoe, tell ii.s in your own opinion, and in your i j! ill iri i!:! lit! M 244 '«|M II, 1 lO 30 40 50 own way? A. — Woll. aocordinp; to the miinb'>r of pieces the I'iiuoe was built from. A cauoe that was specially built woultl be a canoe that was built of thret^ pieces. Q. — The best canoe is built of three pieces? A. — Yes. Q. — Is it coppered or braced at the knees? A. — Yes. Q. — I think in the best canois the ribs are steamed, are th«y not? A. — Yes, stmietinies. Q. — Were there any hunters on board of the "Carolenu" when you were on board of her up at the trading post? Not to my knowledge. A.— any A. — There may have been but I (i. — Did you see did not observe. Q. — Did you see any ashore from the "Carolena?" A.— They are all Indians They are all hunters, you might say. up there. Q. — Did you see any hunters ashore that came from the '"Carolena?" A. — No, I do not remember. Q. — ITow large a place is this trading post? How many white people are there there? A. — There are no white peo- 20 pie there except the white people that trade. (J. — Not one except the i)eoi)le in the trading post, and all the rest are Indians? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you see any white people there except the ship's crew of the Carolena. and the jjeople trading at the post and occupied there? A. — Do you ask me if I saw any other white l)eople there? Q. — Yes? A. — Not outside of those that were travelling with me. Q. — You were at the trading post for how long?A. — Three days. Q. — You did not see any white jjeople there except those engaged at the trading post? A. — No. Q. — Nor you didn't see any one on the "Carolena'' except llie ship's <'rew, is that right? A. — That is right. Ke-direct exmaination by Mr. Heitpie: (.i. — Mr. Sj)ring. you have stated that you were interested in live different claims before this ( 'ommission. but y(>? .V. — No, not to my ]K'rsonal knowledge. (■i. — How long was the "Carolena" at that trading post while you were tliere? A. — I do not know. (i.— Do you renu'iiiber if she was there for a whole day or for ntered Itchring Sea and it'turiKHl to Victoria with upwards of 2,(1(10 skins. This gavo ;in impetus to tlie trade, and new vessels enibariied in tlie enterprise." At paRO 125 also of the case of the United States the fol- lowina; statement is found: "The herd spreads alon>j the coast in a long irregular body, generally advancing northward until they Itegin to ent«'r Rehring Sea in May or June, through the cnstern i)a8sage of the Aleutian Islands, seldom going west of the Four Aloun- tain I'ass. Hut the last of the herd do not have the Pacific nceaa until .July. The cows, however, are practically out of till' I'iiiitie ocean by the middle of .lune. A chart showing (his migration has been prepared from the data contained in the depositions herewith submitted." wish to put before the Commission that chai't I will put in evidence as "Exhibit 17 <}.B., (Maim No. marked with a tag ou it, called "migration Chart :{. Received in Claim No. 1. which I 1. It is evidence and numbeied Exhibit 17 (<}. R.) These charts that I am referring to now, I may state gcn- American re-i»rint, the following statement appears: "It must therefore be «'videnl that if these aninials were I'olhiwed into the Hehring sea and hunted down in a calm sea in the quhtest month of the year, a practically unlimited (piantity of females might be taken, and as you say it w<»uld only b«' a few years until the Alaska seal was a tiling of the past." I draw your Honours' attention to the words: "Practically an unlimited quantity of females might be taken." I will refer now to the case of the I'nited States, Vol. .'I, of the Aniciican re pi-int, and I thid therein an atlidavit jiut for- ward by the I'nited States of one William Hrennan, who is described at j»age ;W7 as follows: "W'ilHam Hrennan being lirsi duly sworn deposes and says" — Mr. Dickinson:— M'e object to the testimony from this source, may it please your Iloncmrs. If we enter upon that we can dismiss the case of the I'nited Slates by quoting the Uritish case. My learned friend uses the I'nited Slates (■ase to show (hat the seals can be found in certain placi's ii. neliring Sea in unlimited »|iuinti(ies. and (ha( they are all lemales, but we can show you beyond a shadow of a doubt H! ,il'ly ! '■'■ ■,'*! ;•»:■;!: !i^' •.i:. ■n:t M !i!,| ! * ISrilisli ciisc tlui) Wwy arc mostly innlcR and pupH. \V(> can dcnionHtiatc Uiat tlwy could not be (akcn as nsscricd hy the I'liilcd States, and iiiasninch as tlu' I'nited States were beah'n lief'ore (lie Paris Tribunal I tliink the British case, if we put i( in. wouhl likely upset the American case on that ]ioint. It doe.-i seem to nie that the arttnment of the United States or the arffunient of (Sreat Hrltain, or the auth- orities cited by either one. or the evidence ]»resented by eith- er side on this (|nestion of the habits of the fur seals cannot 10 be competent to this liearin};. If that is allowed your hon- (turs will have to di'cide, because the Fnited States and (Jreat Hritain were in conHict on these very ]>oints as to which my learned friend cites the Inited States case. If this kind of evid<'nce has any bearinji at all. your ITonourw will have to take that issue that was before the Paris Tril>iiiinl and decide which nation was rittht. We are certainly not bound by this evidence here in another cas(> between ditT«'rent ]tart- ies. and after the decision of the Taris Tribunal. I sulnnit that this evidence can hardly be included in the class tliat is 20 called suitable and authentic testimony. T'nless your hon- ours have all the facts which were jnesent at the I'aris Tri- bunal, upon which this argument was based th(>n we should not have anv of it. Ifr. Peters: davits. -.\r<> von I'eferrini; to the case, or to the afli- 40 Mr. Dickinson: — To both. Mr. I'eters: — My Karned friend seems to overlook the ob- 30 ject, wilh whicli this evidence is put in, 1 may state frankly ttiat it bears on tiie allej.?atiou that in IM)S(i and 18M7 we were prevented from catchinj' seals as we had a perfect rifjht to do. We alle},'e that in is,s(i and ISKT, if we had been allowed to Ko on with the catchiii}; of seals tliere were plenty of seals to be cauylit, and our opportunity for catchin>!; them was tirst- class. 2sow how are we atlemptin}^ to prove tliis in the Urst l»lace. We say that the Inited States from the be^inuin^ have put forward that very case themselves. We say that at Paris it was frankly admitted by both parties, that especially in ISHti when the lirst seizure look place the tinu' and circum- stance were favorable to catchinf; a lar^e qtnmtity of seals. My learned friend Mr. Dickinson says that in the evidence (m behalf of the Inited Slates you will tind that n(»tliin,u but cows were killed, wliile in the Uritish case you will tind atlidavits to prove ilnil nothiufi; but males were killed. W'iiile they ditVer. perha])s, as to the ijender of the seals, both sides admitted, and that is whar I want to show, liiat lliei'c were lots of seals to b.' cauii'ht in Hehrin^ Sea, and that we were stopped frimi catcli- 5'^ inir them when we iiad a ptod oppoil unity of catcliinjt jilenty of IlK'tn. The I'acI of the matter is lliai the Inited Stale's put a certain line of case before tlw Paris Tribunal. Their case was that pelaj;ic sealinfj was doinj^ a j-ood deal of harm, and in order to pi'ove that they jjive <'videnc»' to make out that the pela^iic sealers did kill and could kill u lai'tfe number of seals. They were not then thinking of the i|uestion of compensation. They were not then lliinkiii^' that the very evidence they wert' n'vin),' minht havi- two edKCH to it. and that by and by when we came to the <|uesti()n of com])ensati(m. this very evidence might be tise- ful foi- us in proving our case. The I'nited States availed of llial evidence to prove their case b"l "Car- olena" could have killed all the seals in sifjht. Sir Charles H. Tupjier: — It is one of the steps in the evi- dence. , Mr. Dickinson: — It is not one of the steps (>f comjtetent proof. Counsel on the otlu-r side have to show the cai»a<-ity of the hunters; they have to show that white hunters kill more than Indian hunters, that white hunters in boats kill nntre than hunters in cano(>s, and there are many other »'le- ments that entei' into it. The fact that seals are there is admitted on all sides. There is no (pu'Stion of the fares>nne they are there today, but it does not follow that the "Carolena" ('(»uld have kille evidence in this very case, that more seals are lost than are taken on the slii]i, because when a seal is wounded it sinks, and overi^md over aiiain it is shown in that case that wheie a seal is wounded at any distance from the boat it is almost certain to be lost. The Indians creep u|)on them and unless iliey do come (piietly upon them and kill them asleep tiiey lose (he seals If they are wounded. They must catch the seal immediately after it is wounded. Your Honours will see that, as it is not at ail siiitable and authentic ju'oof of wliar the "Car(dena" could have caujrht, to show that the seals were there. Theic are a ^reat many elements whii ii enter Into The Comniissicnier on the jiart of the I'nited States: — Tho 'Xtracts from the .Vmcrican case wei'e I'ead without any suj;- 'Aestion of an objectimi to it. th.'it I heaid. What is the i»ar- ticujar matter objecte 10 by tli«> rnitcd Stales ffovcrnmcnt, and in fact is tho basis of tiicir orijiinal '-asc. Tlu" Coniniissioiicr on tlic jiait of tlic I'nih'd States: — How many of llicwc extrafts do you pi-oposc to n'ad? Mr. Pctors: — Not a j^n-cat many of tliom at nil. Tlie ConiniisHioner on tlie part of tlio Tnited States: — I un- derstood that Mr. Dickins-'on admitted that tlie seals weie tliere. Mr. Peters: — Mr. Diekinson has i)ointed out several thinfjs that will have to be i>roved before tlu' particular jtortious of the T'nited States <'ase I have read will be of any use to us. I ajjree with him there. We must take the evidence step by stejt and we cannot jtrove it all at once. The Commissioner on the jtnrt of the T'nited. States: — Mr. Dickinson, does your objection apply to the extract whi<'h Mr. Peters r«'ad from the f'nited Slates case, or does it apply 20 merely to the affidavit which he was about to read? Mr. Dickinson: — It i>])jilies both to the affidavit ami to the extract. This testimony was not shown to us previously — nnd I do not at all lake any exception to that — but of course, I cannot tell what it is until Mr. Peterw reads it. I cannot tell whether 1 would have any objection to it at all until T liear what it is. The <'omniissilease your T-ordshi]). the whole text qualities il. Where are we ^oinn *" draw the line on this matter. Shall we put all the Cnited States case in, showinf,' the cir that as an admission, without reatlin^ the objettions on which it is based. The Ccunmissiom'r on the part of the T'nited States: — Do you object to (uoof of any kind showiufj the frecpu'ntiiif!: of Kehrin^r Sea by seals at this particular date spoken of by Mr. Peters. !. 1; ,, lo 30 40 50 r,o 249 The (\>nimiHsi(HU'r on Uw part <»f Ilcr Majesty: — f'ouUl yon vtT.v well do NO. Mv. DirkiiiHon. It appcarH to luo that no per- son could prove Uie whole of these faelH at one time, and the ([ueHtion Is: Is this a material part and relevant to the in- (piirv? The (question then for yon, as asked bv my learned colleafrne is; Do you or do you not say that it is competent to the other side, to make jtroof that seals frequented the lU'hring Sea in large numbers in 188(i. Mr. Dickinson: — I liave not the slij^htest doubt of the com- ]ietency of that proof. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — If the (inestion is as to the mode of proof, then we have to discover whether the statements made by the Ignited States (lovern- ment in the proceedinj^s before the Paris Tribunal were of tlie nature of admissions that will bind (hem in the present in- quiry, or whether, otherwise, it is projter evidence for us to regard. That, I suppose, is the particular question upon which you, Mr. Dickinson, take the negative side. Mr. Dickinson: — That is the point exactly, your Honour. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — And yon say that not only is it incompetent for the other side to bring forward affidavits that wer«> made use of by the United States, but that it is also e()ually incompetent to bring for- ward statements in tlu; T'nited States case as jtart of the sub- se(|uent case of (Jreat Britain. That I understand is your contention. Air. Dickinson: — That is the contention The Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — Your ob- jection, therefore, applies both to the statement of the case that has been read, and also to the affidavit? Mr. Dickinson: — Y(?s. it does, your H(mour. I beg to point out (hat we are now in the sealing country, the source from which both sides of (he case, as jiresented to the Paris Tri- bunal, was drawn. Here in Victoria are the witnesses. Here is the source of information on this very point, and here this Tiibnnal has been asked to sit. This case is sent to this Tribunal, sitting at (he source of this information, in order (hat we nuiy list(>n to the oral testimony of the men who are jHMfectly familiar with the sealing industry and with the liehring Sea. Should we not get our information directly lu>re, and should not the evidence be taken here? Mr. Peters: — My fi-iend is a little in error as to where these statenuMit.-! were made. The witness whose affidavit I wits about to i-ead from, is not at Paris, nor in Victoria, but he re- sides at Seattle, as 1 understand. He was sworn at Seattle before Notary D. A. JilcKenzi*'. which does no( sound like a very Parisian name. My learned friend now tells us that all tli(> evidence is to be got fnmi Victoria, but the other day he (old us (hat all the evidence was to be got at San Fmn- cisco, and he asked us to go then' to hear jtractically the wli()i( of his case. The t'nited Slates used this affidavit for one jmrpose, and we hav(> a perfect right to use it for an- other. If there was' anything wrong in that affidavit, or if it was ini( in in error, my friend has only to point that out and (here will be every oppor(uni(y (o amend it. My learned friend says thai they will not be bound by these affidavits. 1 do no( for a moment contend that the T'nited States Oov- ermnent is absolutely bound by every one of these affidavits. Tliey can jtoint out that it was made under n misapi»reliensint in in n'pl.v. il wtnild lie nioi-(> satisfartorv. Mr. I'cteis: — I am (piitc salisficd inv learned friend will not atleni])! to aiiswei' the ]ioint I am about to make because it is admitted on both sides. It has been (tnt in proof b,v ullidavits jiiesented by themselves. The case tf the I'nited Slates w.'is founded on these anida\its and th(> conclusions at which they ariived wei'e pi'aclically based on them These '^ allidavits .ire the pioof that weic jiut in in support of their case. I do not see that there is any ditVefence or that there should be any objection to ]iiiltin;; in allidavits upon which the case of the I'nited States was founded, when we are al- lowed to put in extracts frtim the case itself. The Commissioner on the part of the Inited States: — Su])- pose I apply for an injunction and file a lot of allidavits on wliich to base my injunction, conld these attidavits be used in a subs<-(iuent suit. -•^ Mr. I'eters: — Yes. if the subsequent suit arose in the same matter. The Commissioner on the parr of the I'nited States: — The witnesses bein;; still alive and within reach? Mr. I'eters: — Yes, I think so. The Commissioner on the part of the I'liited States: — I do not jiut this in any technical way, but merely as an illiistra- ,„ lion? Of course we are jii-oceediii}; on somewhat broader jjidunds here than in ordinary suits of common law. Mr. Peters: — Yes, even in common law, if there was a con- Icntion in the same matter. An injuixtion (use is a }^ood il- hisliation. It comes befoi'e court for interlocutory injunc- tion, and certain attidavits ate tised, and afterwards that case ^oes tirst a]iplication may be us«>d a}<;ainst him subse- nuentlv. 40 The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — That i.s rather .'i novel )iroposition tg me, I must say. .Mr. I'eters;— It is not often a (piestion of the kind arises and I would point out to your Honours that it is not often that you have a le^al matter left to such a late day as has been in the case of these claim.s. These tliinns occuri'ed ten years afro. The witncssr' are out of reach. I cannot ffet this man whose allidavit I jirojiose to read. He do(>s nor 50 iippciir to be a citizen of this country at all, but of the Inited States. I could not m-t him if I wanted to, and in >ayinj; this I do noJ wish yu\\v Ihinour to infer tliat I have tried to jjet him. He is practically out of our nacli, and he is out of the reach of this Commissi in your own writing? A. — They are. Mr. Dickinson: — I suppose this testimony bears on the probable catch? 3° Mr. refers:— Yes. .Mr. Dickinson: — Of course that comes in under yotir ITon- durs' intimation reserving that questi su^p'stion; of course coiinml Iviiow bi-lti'i' tliau till' ConiniiMHioncrs what tln',v ii'iinirc. The roinniisHioncr on tlic jiart of H«'r Majcst.v: — Tlic rctiii- lar course would be to use siicli a book iih that for the piii'- ]>ose of examining; the witness orall.v, and re^iilaiiy it would not be the subject of evidence itself. Mr. Hodwell: — I iiroiiose now to show the witness tlie book to aid his recollection. .M.v friend the other da.v, with ref- erence to another book of this kind, which I tendered, thought the book ou;;ht to pi in. It was a case where we w«'re e.xaniiniHK Mi", lainj;. Q. — Will you look at the book, .Mr. l?ragji, and say what day your shiji entered ISeliriiiK Wea, or rather, what was the tirst day on which you took any seals in Itehriii); Sea? A. — (Exaniininf;) We entered Helirinp; Sea the 2rith of June, ISSti. The tIrst day we linnted was the l!Stli of ,Iune, ISSC. Mr. Dickinson: — In IJehiin;; Sea, I siipiiose? A.— In Itt'hriufj Sea, y<'s, sir. Q. — SVhat was the name of the lirst hunter whose account you kept? A. — John Jacobson was supposed to be the heail hunter. (i. — Did he hunt anv in the month of Juno in ISehrinf? Sea? A.— He did. (i. — Ilow many days in -lune did he hunt in Itehrinij; Sea? \. — Two days. (i. — How many seals? A. — 12. (.1. — Did that same hunter take anv seals in the month «if July? A.— He did. Q. — Were there any days in the iiionth of July in which he did not hunt at all? A.— There was. Q. — How many? Perhaps you will jjive us the days on which he did not hunt? A. — Tlu> first of July he fjot three. The s«'cond, three. ii. — What I wanted you to do first was to look throufjh that list and see the days on which he did not hunt at all; I think that will be the shortest way to jiiit it in. A. — The 4tli of July, not huntintj; the .5th of .luly, not hiintiu}!;; tin? 7th of July, ditto; the !»lli. ditto; the lOtl'i, ditto; littli, ditto; 2:{rd, ditto; Uflh, ditto; 27fh ditto. ii. — Were tliere any days on whicli he hunted part tli, two hours. That is all Jacobson linnted. il. — On tlie other davs of the inontli di Iniiili'd )i imit of llicdiiv? A. — • lltli of .\iip;iiNl. Iinnlftl litilf n dtiv; lolli of Au^iiNt, linlf a iliiv; well llicn- nii^Iil have Ikm-ii six Iiouih iiikI llu'it* iiiIkIiI lijivc Ik'I'Ii t'i^'lit lioiii's. (2, — Itiil voii tiilU'd il a half a tlav in .voiir hook? A. — >°('M. pti aboard Ixforc 11* o'tioik. 2lHt liiiiilcd lialf a da,v; Jtlii, lialf a da,\ ; one from flu- Hi-liooiicr on tlu* L'Tlli. il. — What was liin Itital erri«'s. (i.— IHd he hunt in the month of Jim.? A.— lie did. JO (i.- In Mehrinn Sea' -lie did (2.— How many da.vs? A.— Hi- hunted the liSth and the ;!(lth. <^ — How many seals did he rateh in the month nf June? \. — Ki^jlit seals. (2.— Did he hunt in the month of Julv? A.— He did. (^ — Now tell us jiisl the niiuilier of days on wliirli he did not hunt aiith to the L'Sth, isn't it? A.— Fnuii the •_'lst to the 2Sth. (i. — So y(Mi cannot state those interv. iiiii}^ dates? .\. — I cannot. t^. — .\ie there any dates after the lisih in which you did not hunt? .\.— Tliere are. 40 ti.— State lliem? ■The ;{l.st. (I. — .\fter looking at that pajte, can yon tell me wlii.i his total catch for .liilv was? A. — 1 can. (2.— What was it: A.-l»4fi (I. — Did the same hunter hunt in the month of Au};ust? A.— He did. (I. — Were (here any days on which he did not hunt in the iiioiith of .\iimist? A. — There were. (I. — State them? .\. — .">th of .\uj;ust, not hunting;; fith. ditto; |-Jth. ditto; i:{th. ditto; lllli. ditto; Kith, ditto; 17th, 50 "litto; IStli. ditto; L'l'iid. ditto; IMtli. ditto; I'tltli, ditto; l-'Tth, litto; •JSili. ditto; lillth. ditto. C^ — Any days on wliicli he hunted parts of days in t-hat IlKUlth'i A. — There were. (,o Q.— Wliat were tliev? A.— lltli of August, hunted half u day; IT.th, half a day; 24th. half a day. it — What was his total catch for the immth of August? A.— 17.-). (2. — t'an you jjive any ex|ilanation of his not huntiufr after I see you };i\e four days there on which he did th: '>lh not hunt? A. — I think the hist dav we hunted in the sea was the 24th. (i. — That is your recollection? \. — To the hest of my re- collection I think the 24th was the last day we hunted, hut We reniaim-d thei'e for a few niontli (if .luiic? A.— Il<- did. H. — How tnany davn? ti. -II<»w nian.v seals? (j.— Did Iw liii'nt in t1u> not liiintiii);; l':{nl, ditto; A.— Two. A. — Hcvtn HcalH in tlu' two days, inimili of .July? A.— He did. ii. — Wliat davH in tin* niontli of .Innc did li<> Iiunl? A. — liHtli and :m\\ ' 10 Q. — Htatc llic da.vH in •hily on wliicli he did not iinni? Ito yon find a leaf torn out of yonr l»ool< tiu'ic? A. — I do. (j. — Ih tliat a part of tlic rcrord of .Iniian's liunlinK that \a torn'' A.— It is. Q.--Ho\v ni;mv dayH? .\. — riic "tli is licr*'. <2.--Tc!l lis tliin afti-i- tlu" 7tli? .\.--Tli«' 7Hi !Mli. ditto; KItii, ditto; liltli. ditto; litttli, ditto; JTtli. ditto. Q. — Any days on wliicli Uv lumtcd a pa it of tlic day ho far aw tliat record ^oeH? A. — Tliere were. Q.— State fiieni? A.— lltli, iiunted lialf a day; LMtli. lialf a di'.y. (2. — On tile remaining days lie liniited, I understand? Witli reference to all these hunters tlie days wliicli you do not specify as not hunting;, or as liuiitin;; a i»art (»f the day. tliey were out all day. tliey iiiinted all day? A. — Well, they inifiht have been out all day, some of them, and they niifiht not, I did not ke«'p the hours tliey were out. ii. — You called it a day? A. — I called it a day. (i. — That api)lies generally to all the hunters yon are speakin}>; of in vour evidence. What was his catch for the month of July? A.— Kdti. Q. — Take tiie month of Anpist, Mr. Mratrit? A. — .Julian, the month of August, not huntintj: tin.' (ith; IL'th, ditto; VMh, ditto: 14th, ditto; Kith, ditto; ITtli, ditto; IStli, ditto; 25tli, ditto; 2(itli, ditto; 27tli, ditto; 2stli. ditto; iMttli, ditto. Q.— Any half days in that? A.— There are. On the 5tli he ){ot two from the schooner; ir>tli, half a day; 21st, a half u day; -4tli. a lialf a day. (i.— Total for the niontli of August? A.— 2:U. Q. — Take ,\()ur next hunter, what is his name? \. — Lor- ■nzo. Q.— Take the month of June tirst? A.— 2Sth is the tlrst day Lorenzo hunted, and the :{((tli. ii. — How many seals did lie )j;i't? A. — 1. Mr. Peti'i's: — If the <'oniniissi(Uiers please, I have a witness here who will be very short — Mr Thomas. He has just come from the hospital, and, if it would not inconvenience the Court, I would like? to examine him and let him f^o, interrupt- iiiy this witness. Tile Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Vcrhajis you had better finish this statement with regard to this man. ii. — The month of .Inly, state the days on which he did not hunt. Did he hunt in the month of July? A. — He did. Q. — State the days on which he was not out? A. — 4tli not hiintin};, .f)th ditto, "itli ditto, iltli ditto, Kith ditto, Kttli ditto, L'dlh ditto, 2.'{id ditto, 27tli ditto. (i.— Did he hunt tli half a day. il. — What was his total catch for the month of Julv? A. — 220, ID «57 (j. — Tiikc (Im' iiioiidi (if AtiKMst? A. -.'Ill mil Iniiiliti^' t;ili ilillo, I21I1 scliooiifi' IHlli, L'U'iitl not liiiiit- iii;;. ^'ilh tlillu. LMilli ditto, -JTlli dittii, L'Mtli ditto. Q. — An,v liiilf dii.VK? A. — Tlu're nre. (2.— Htiilc tliciii plciisc? A.— Till- Iftli liiilf ^ dii.v, I'ltii liiiir II (Illy. -Mst liiilf a (liiy. :J4tli ditto. (^ — How iiiiiiiv hi'siIh (lid lie p-t oil tliiil liiilf (liiv, the 2lHt? A.— 11. (i.— Wliiit wiiH liiN total catcli for that month? .\. — 171>. iy — Wliat was IiIh licwt day, can you tell tluTc witliuiit iiiiicii botlici? A.— The IJttli. Q.— How many did he net? A.— .SS. Kxamiiiatiou of wIIui'hh HnHpcndcd. Owen TliomaB called on the |iart of Great Itritain, and 2" Hworn: IHitct examination by Mr. I'etei'M. Mr. Thomas, yon live in Victoria? A. — Ych, sir. (■i. — And do you rememb(>r the schooner '•Carolena"? A. I do, sir. (ij. — In \HX(i were yon on the schooner "Carolena"? A. — ^'('s, sir. (i.— As a jiilot. or somethiiif; of that sort? A. — Yes, sir. 30 Q. — Where did you no on her? A. — Went to New Chate- let (Ksperanza Inlet) Hometime about the middle of February. (.i. — What did you jjo there for? A. — For n crew of Indians for Kehriii^ set. iy — Did you net the Indians? A. — No, sir. Cy — Did you take some siiiiiilies down there? A. — Yes. iy — What were you noin^ to do with the HUiiplies? A. — (ioiiin to feed the Indians. iy — To keep the Indians? A. — Yes, sir. (.y — Was it your iiit(>iition to land the supiilies? A. — Yes. 40 Q. — After you found out that the Indians wouldn't come, what did you do with the su|i|ilies? A. — Took them aboard. (.y — Did voii, or did vou not, leave anv siiiiplies there? A. —No. Q.— You not no Indians? A. — No Indians; they wouldn't Q. — How loiin were you at this place? A. — tiiiite a long tiiue there. iy — What were y.iii doiiin there all the time? A. — The ves- sel laid there, an^o. 50 (i.— And you failed? A.— Failed, yes. iy — And then you went where? A. — Victoria. (^— Direct? A.— Direct, sir. iy — Stojiped at no other place? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you leave the vessel at Victoria? A. — I did. Q- — You had nothing more to do with her? A. — Nothing iiKire to do with her. The ('omiiiis.si(uier on the piirt of llie I'nited States: — When was it that he not back? .Mr. IVters:— He slated that he went in the middle of Feb niary. Witness: — About that time. iy — .\ii(l came back to Victoria, where vou left the ship? A.— Left tlieshiii. Crossexurainathin by Mr. Dickinson: 17. 1)0 ill !;! iiilti i! ■;-:i.:rj , ■.!!.■; '. ■ ! -N ; 'i ^ m l i I I i 1 S I !5« 'flM III (i. — W'.is Ciiptiiiii Ofjilvic ;ib<)iir(l? A.— lie was iilMiaid bL'- I'oi't' I weld aboard of her. (i.— Was he aboard wlu'u .von went up to (Miati'let? A. — () Vl'8. Q. — H»> was llii'ii on tlic sliiji? A. — () vcs. Q. — What wcri' voui- duties on board? A. — rilutiu}? in the lii'st ]>hi('u. Q. — Had you been on the boat befoi'e uji there? A. — () yes, I was in another lioat there. lO Q. — Hut on tile "Carohna"? A. — \o. sir. Q. — Never had been uji tliere before? A. — Not on the "Carolena." (i. — Did Jlr. Munsie have a tradinj; poat there? A. — O, ho didn't liave no trading post. g.— At Chateh't? A.— No. IJ — W'liere did you laud these thiufis? A. — There was a little shed there. Q.— JIow larf;e a shed? A. — O. I can't remember. Q.— What did von put into that shed? A.— This slutf, 20 that's all. (i. — IMd you land it, or was it landed under Captain Ogil- vie's direction? A. — W<'11, I have for<;ot now. Q. — You were only thei-e as jiilot? A. — Mostly. Q. — Vou only had to do with it as pilot? A. — I helped them to fjet the Indians to the goods there in the shed? A. —Yes. (i- — It locked up did it I Were there any other goods in there? Did you go inside of the shed yourself? A. — V,\'\\t '^ inside, T snpjiose Q. — Do you renieiuber whether yon did or not? A. — Well, yes, I went in with the stuff I sujipose. Q- — Were there any other goods there before those were taken off the "Carolena"? A.— I couldn't tell yon that now. (i.— Can you tell me as to the size of that shed? A.— Xo. i-i. — Do you know wiio built the shed? A.— (), I have for- got all about that. Q.— Cajitain Ogilvie was master and attended to the man- ^Q agemeiit of the ship, didn't he, except in regard to the pilot- ing. A. — Yes. Q. — Where did vou go after Indians? ,\. — To Xew Cliate h-t. •: 1 ii. — Did yon go aiivwhere elsi' up (he coast in the canoes? A.— Xo. \ i (J.— And you were engaged in looking for Indians? A. — Yes, sir. t^— Did you gel any canoes there and put on board the "Carolena?" A.— Tli.it is more than I can (ell you. I have (3o foruot all about that. (^— You came back (o \'ic(oria? A.— Yes. 1 think there was four canoes put on (he scliooner. (2.— And brought back to Victoria? .\.— Yes. if I have not forirolteii. ().- Vou wouh; not lie jiositive about that, would you? .\. — No. I can't be, because I don't reliieniber. (}. — Did von see tlieiii lo:idc(l on — three liirue canoes, the largest size? A. | ain't sure of i(. sir, bii( 1 (liink (here was. .10 40 00 2 59 (i. — Arc von as siir(> of lliiil iis von iirc (liat llic siipplics were loiidcd back on the vessel? A. — \Vc wasn't f{oin^ t(» leave tlieni lliei'e anvliow. il. — Yon renieinl)«'r distinctlv ])nttin.i; the snpitlies baek? A. — I know lliev was all jml on hoard. (^ — Did von have anvthinji to do with lakinj; them ont of the ship vonrself? A. — I snppose I helped. (2. — IMd yon? .\. — I expect s-)i|i]»Iies? A. — It is so lontr a};o 1 have forfjot. .50 (j. — Did they i)nt .all the snpidies back in the hold? .\. — i don't renieml)er. they mtist be iinl in the iiold. (J. — Yon don't remember it. do yon? .\. — Xo, I do not. (.1. — Did yon see t'aptain Mnnsie last ni^ht? .\. — Xo. sir. (}. — Who spoke to yon about this matter of bein^; at t'hate let in ISSI!? A. — 1 seen .Mr. Mnnsie this mornin}^. (i. — Did he come to ^ct yon? .\. — lie sent a carriajfc nji. yes. Q. — .\nd talked with yon about being np there in b'^SO? .\. — 1 !:now 1 was there. 40 Q. — lie talked to yon tliis morning, did he? A. — Xo. he wanted me to tell what I know. (i. — Did he yo n]t there whei'c you were liviuf;? A. — 1 was in the lios])ital. sir. i. — Did he iii> u|) tliere? A. — Yes, sir. Dii-ect e.xaminatitpn ol Me. r.ra''t; resuintd b\ Mi-. Modwell. iijl; ■1: il — Wh(» was the hunlci' next to Lorenzo? .\.—(\ l'\ Dil Ion. . Ill) (iiiio. ."ilh dillo. Till dillo, tli ditto. 'JTth ditto. 'JMtli ditto, liltth ditto. Q.— Any hnlf davs? /..—Yes. (i.— Slate Ihcni. plea." •? A.— The 11th a half dav. IHth half ,o day. 21st half dav. ;'ifh half dav. g.— Total catch lor Anjfiisl? A.— inS. ti.— Was tha^ all the hunters? A.— That was all the liun- lei's. Q. — Have y< u anv recoid of the stein lioat for the month of August? A.— ^ have. (i. — That was your own boat? A. — That was the boat 1 liunted in. (i. — Now state what days the stei'U boat hunted, and what voui' catch was in the month of Anjiust? A. — The 1st 14, 20 '{nl ;5. 4th 1. (!th 1. SIh 0. KMh 12. inth :!. (half a day) l!)th 5, 24th 1. 25(h 1 from the schooner. Q.— Will you look at the l!)th afjaln? A.— Five fioni the scliooner. I have it marked here. (i. — What was the total catch for the month of August? A.— 47. ii. — Have you in your book any record of the stern boat for the month of -July? A. — I have not. Q. — From your book can yon state the total number of seals you caught outside of Uelii'ing sea that year? A.— I can. ii. — Ilow nninv did vou catch outsidi' of the sea if t'at year? A.— lS(i!).' (•i. — Have vou vour total catch for the season in vonr H>i«k? A.— I have. ' oal. Ci'ossexaminaiion bv .Mi'. Wair»n. ^.0 Q. — Was this 111. Inst year tlinl you were in the Sea Mr. Itragg? .\. — 1\ was my iii>t year in the Sea. (.y — Had you ever liuiit<'d with these liniiteis before on tin' coast? A.—I never had. (■i- — Had von ever Ininted before anywhere? A.—I never liad liiinted seals, no. (i. — Do voii know the experience that Dillon had had in liiiiiliii!."? .\.— I thiiiU one year previous to that; 1 coiihln't swear posit'vely. M '1^ , stern boat woidd only go out occasionally when you had not anyOiiug else to do? A. — Only occasionally. Q.— The ".Mary Kllen" entered the sea that year you say about the 2()lli of .lune, or the •JCtli of .lune? A.— The 2.")tli of -June. Q. — Vou hunted but two days in the sea that month? A. — Two a. Q. — \Vhereabouts in tlie sea, I said? A —I couldn't tell you. Q. — You have no memory? .\.— To that fffcct. 0. — Do you know where the log for the "Mary Ellen" for that year is? A. — I do not. "* (.}. — It is not in your jiossession? A. — II is not in my pos- session. Q. — Did you sjieak the "<'arolena" that y<'ar? A. — No, not that I know of. Q. — Did vou see the "Onward"? .\. — Xot that I am aware of. Q.— Tl Favorite"? A.— Xo. Q.— Tlie "Thornton"? .\.— I think not. Q. — Then you were iiot iiunting in their immediate vicinity 50 on the '2u(\ (hiv of .\ui:ust ' -Well, tliev mijiht have been there, but we didn't Iciiow who they were. I don'l remember whi'lher tliere was any vessels in sight or not. ii. — \ow. lefcriiiig to the little book whicii you ju'oduced, Mr. Mra^ig. and t:il;iii!i the month of .Vuj:tist, witli reference to the liuntei- .lac.ihsiii : I believe vou slated that he did not hunt on the .^lli. (Itli, I'Jtli Hlh. iVtli, ISih, L'lind, LMJth and L'Stii of .\u!;iist. witii tlie cxri'iilioii of half (ia\s on tlie llth, 1."»tli, lilsl, L'lth and ::7th? Is tiial correct? A.— Well, I diilu't have llie jiajie tiiiiicil uii w hni you were readirifi', so I 60 couldn't sav. 40 50 ''^o (Question repeated.) A.— -4tii was (lie (list- no, excuse me, the .Mil. Q.— Take the next hiinler. De Fries, vou stated that lie did not hunt on the.'ith, ewritten copy, not (juite in shape — that 1 can hand to jou (jasses up type -written table). The Commisioner on the part of the United States: — For my own purjiosi' I desire to have a statement made up to and including the first day of Au^tiisl eoi-respondiuf;; exactly with the "Carolena." Mr. Peters: -1 will call attention to the fact that she was seized at six ('dock in the morning. The Commissioner on the jiart of the United States: — The "Cai'olena?" I !iiouj;lit it was half past seven at nij^ht but l»erhaps I am mistaken about it. Mr. Warren: — If your Ifoiiour j»l<'ase, th<>y did not hunt the tlrst four davs in .\ut{ust, so it will commence Au};ust nth. Q.— Do you know wh<>ther or not yonr catch was larger or smaller in August than in other months of that year that yon were in the Sea — in fluly? A. — I couldn't say accurate- ly, I never added the columns up. The "Mary Kllen" that year took l.Sti!) skins. Q. — In what you call her coast cjitch'.' A. — Yes. (2.— That made a total of l.'.2(t4. Now .Mr. Itragg. is not that the gi-eatest catdi ever made'.' A. — No. (J. — What vessel ever took a gi'eater number of skins'/ A. — Tile schooner "Triuni|)h." (2.— In what year'.' A.— 1S!»4. I tliiiik was the year. Q. — In the i-ai'ly days, and up io 1S1)4, this is tlie greatest cal''h evei' mad<', is it not'.' A. — It was. Q. — And is known as sudi among sealers'/ A. — Yes. Q.— And is to tliis day'.' .\.— Willi Die excejilion of the "Triumi)h." (i. — \\'\h> was the Uiaster of the "Triumph" when she made her catch in is;>f? A.— Cai)ta(in Clarence Cox. Q. — For how many months was slx' out'.' A. — I couldn't tell yon. (.}. — Did tliat include a trip to .lapaa and back, as well as along tile coast and in tlie Sea".' .\. — Not \o .la|>an. Q. — \\'lien did tlie "M.iry Kllen" sail fiom San Francisco in iSSd? A.— I tliink the daie was the 'JSih df .liuiuary. (i.~-.\nd she went along up the coast".' .\. — Coast of Cali f(U-nia ami Oi'i'gon. Q.— Did she .■oin<' into X'ictoria? A.— Sh(> did. Q. — And she left \'ict' olJH-rs I wouldn't lie sure what kind of guns. 205 Q. — Was each huncr furnished with a gun or two guns? A. — (jun and a rille. Q. — And w('i«' t'lH' j,'!ins in good condition or witc thc.v old Kiiiis? A. — Honit' of them were new, and some of tlieni liad been used vears hefor(>. Q. — Now witneHH, does it mnlce any difference about the (iitili of a vessel, the capacity and experience of the hunters? A.— It does. Q. — Does it make a difference whether there are two men lo in a boat, and as to whether they are canoes or boats? A. — Well, it makes a difference to white hunters whether there is two or tliree men in a boat. Q. — And if tlicre were only two men in a boat int U-ad of three, they would not have as jjood results, I suppose? A. — J don't think they would, no. Q. — And if they did not have as jrood ffuns, they would not have as fjood results, would they? A. — Well, you tiike an ()ld nun. ami sometimes it will slioot as well, and better, than a lii^h j)riced one. 20 Q- — -^ K"i> tl'i>^ will carry well you get more skins with than with a jxtor one of course? A. — Yes. (.1. — When a man is out in a regular sealing boat he can carry more skins, can he not, on a trip, than he can in a canot'? A. — Well, 1 don't think he can, because you can skin all the seals that you are capable of getting in a day. (.1. — Is it not a fact that the Indians cannot carry as many skins in their canoes as a white man can carry in his boat? A. — I don't think it is, that is, in a day's catidi. Q. — They carry a whole seal back to the vessel, don't they? 30 A. — Not always. Q. — Is that the reason you had three men? A. — Three men in tlie boat? Q. — Ddn't thev in tiiose davs? A. — Not all of them. Q.— Did the ""Mary Ellen""/ A.— No. Q. — You skinned them out in the small boat? A. — Skin- ned soui" in the small boat. (J. — if there were two men in the boat, could they do that? A.— They could. Q. — Where you had three men in a boat, could you capture more of the seals that were actually shot, or wounded, than when you had two men in a boat? A. — Yes. (i. — And that would make a difference would it? A. — It would, yes. (i.— What other contingencies are there, witness, that yon know of, that would make a differenc<' in results of one liun- Icr as i'gainst another, or of one l)(»at as against another? A. — I don't understand your question. 'iieed ni'-n in tiie business? .\. — He WHS. 40 50 r,o !i!-H ■■■■■■ \ III f ^^\m •III i;i; & ■'r-"'"wnw^ tG6 <<|Mi.M 10 20 30 40 50 60 Q. — And he iiiul liis brollicr, Ah-xaiidcr McLean, wore per liajis tlM' two nioHl cxitcrii'iiccd men that over left this poii in those (lavs? A. — I was never willi ("aptain AU'X. Mc- Lean, but lie alwavs had that reinitation anionf; the sealers. (i.— Does it depend anv on the crew of the vessel itself? A. — That is the boat pullers and the boat steerers? Q.— No, the crew of the vessel itself? A.— Well, they are llu' sailors, the ci'ew — boat ])nllers and stit'i'ers. Q. — Don't \t>!i cai'ry some sailors that are not hunters or boat pullers or steerei-s? \. — Sometimes they that late in those years? A. — No I did not. Q, — And although you stayed there that year until the 21 st of .\ugust you did it to get a favorabh' wind to come down? A. — The captain said llie tirst iiorthw 'sti'r he would gel he would steer for home. (J. — And U i\ i)(;/f A wester came along before the 24tli of .\)if!iist you would have taken advantage of that? A. — I do not Know tliat we would. Q. — If I gave you your location on the "Mary Ellen" on the 2filh August, if I give yon your latitude and longitude, would von know wliere aliouts von were with reference to the Pribyloflf Islands? A.— No, I would not. Q. — It apjtears fro;n the claim of the "('nrolena" in this case, that on tin 1st of .\ugUNt she was in north latitude .'•n.l'id a 1(1 west longilnde KIS..*?.'!. T will ask you if on the 2nd of .\ui'ust vou have anv reinemlu'ance as to wiiether (U' nor 267 llu! "3l!iry Elli'ii" wiin in iiordi lalitudt! 54." ami west longti- Half Hix."(»? A.— I have iio(. (i. — I will hIiow ymi the nicnioraiKliim lo rcfrcHli jour r«'- collccUoii, and I ask .von if that is a coitv <»f llu! log of llio ".Man- Kllcn" for ISIHI? A.— I cannot ("ell .V(»ii. (i-— Wi'll, you have not read it luivc you? A. — 1 conld not ti'Il you any how. (i- — Voii wt'i'c asked wlu-thcr your huntors were as good as ("otsford and Dupont and Shields. Will you tell nie whether 10 llicse nu'n were as f^ood as your hunters? A. — I have not been shipinales with either one of tlieni, but they have had a ;;ood reputation as hunters. Q. — Do you know whether t'olsford was ever out before the season of 1,S8(!? A. — 1 cannot tell you. Q. — What do you know about liis reputation in 1S8G?' A, — Well among the hunters they said ('otsford was a good hunter. Q. — I thought you said yon did not know whether he was out before oi' not? A. — 1 do not know. "^ Q. — l>id Ik' have the reputation of having been out before? .\. — Not that I know of. Q. — IFow did lie have any reputation as a seal hunter? A. — I cannot say, I <'annot tell you. Q.— Did he have any? A. — I did not say that he did, but I sav the hunters told me he was a good hunter. q".— Did they tell you in 1880 or aft«'rwards? A.— In 188<5 as I understood. Q.- Had you heard of Dupont in ISSfi? A.— I cannot say, ,p. 1 do not remember. '•^ Q.— Had yard about Shields in 188(1. what did vol! hear? A. — I heard fliat Sliields was a good hunter. PI [^^■F^t^W^BH 'Mi '' 26H Q. — Aim! yon Nti.v dial oilier IliiiifjH lK•ill^:: equal, llie iiiaii Unit covers llie iiionI ;;ioniitl will p'l llie iiiokI sealH? A. — Thai is my idea. ^o further under (U'dinary circumstances in the canoe than in the boat? .^. — I think .1 canoe would t,'o faither in a day than a boat with two siootiiiK (^ood men in her. ii. — Suppose you had a canoe ri^j«:ed with lowlocks and oars and two yood men in the canoe, how would the distance which they would cover in a day compare with.tlu' distance which a boatpiillei- and a steei-er would take the men in a 2° boat? A. — In .1 canoe the distance wfuild be jireater. (.}. — Does it take lonj; to skin a seal? A. — Some hiintei's time. ii. — I do not know whetlier you can answer this (juestion «>r not, but I will put it to yon, can you n'lvi' us any idea how Ions .voii iii'e between the time you avt one seal and come u]) up" always under tlie impression that longitude we w<'re huntiiifi in. stood, on board Die vessel, to the 60 Q. — When wen yo>i u]* there? cd the Sea. Q. — .\nd then you worked the southward. Q. — Do you know how far you were from the Pass wlien you started for lionu ? .\. — To the best of my recolleclicm, il lillle after daylight in the UKU'iiing, tlie caplaiu came on deck. The wind was to the westward and he told me to 50 :{0 west longitude. I was that was the latitude and We had been n]>, 1 under north east of St. Cieorge. A.— When we first enter which direction? A.— To 2()(J |iii( tlic wlicci M|i iiixl Hi't I lie iiiiiiiiNiiil jiikI I\('<-|i Iut nlV. lie ivc III (• t'oiirHc wliirli I Idi'ut I niiw, hut Im' Htiiil to nc( IIu- io iniiiii lo|iiiiiiKl Ntji,v Hiiii jiiwl tliiit iiip;lil we Wfi'c down to (lu! runs. y.— Wliat kind of ,i miilinn hrcczc ilid voii have tlial daj? A, — All tile wind hIic ronid sla^^vi' on willi. I). — And a favoralilc wind? A. — ^'cs. Tlic ('oniniiHHJoncr on the jiart of the Tnitcd HtatcH: — WIm'I'c ix that pawH, Mi-. |{»idw('ir.' Mr. Itodwcll: — It in a Hinall paHH to tho wfHtward uf Vam Seventy two. The ("onimissioner on the i»art of Her Majesty: — What is the name of the ]iasK? Witness: — I do not remember the name of the pass. (i. — fan von j{ive the name from the My Mr. Hodwe chart? A. — Vt s, there is the i)ass we came thronph, so I -" was t they ccmipare with a lioat. Are they larger than the ordinary canoe? A. — They do not use very large canoi's for sealing. Tliey are not a large class of c;inoes that they use for sealing. (i. — Are the Indians accustomed to go out to sea in these (,o canoes? A. — They ai<'. Q. — Do you know anything alxnit the distance they will liavel by sea, and where they go in these canoes? A. — They travel from Kyo.^« IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) // 1.0 ^^ l£i ^^= itt 122 122 11.1 l.-^KS Ih Ib^ "'^ I, ^ ^ ^ Photographic Sciences Corporation ^^^ 33 WIST MAIN STRIIT WIBSTIR.N.Y. MSM (716)t72-4S03 '^ iw w^^^ ;| iliMK) lO 20 30 40 5° 60 370 (j. — How far out t«> mcii will (li«'.v <;o Htiai);lit out from lain], do ,voii know aiiytliiiiK iiboiit Miat? A. — The liiilians told inu tlu'iiiHclvcH tliat tlu>,v litid hi'cii olT '2i\ or :<() miles (i. — Ih>w mufh Iwam linvi' tlit»se ••unoi'!!'? A. — I have lu'ver iiU'aHured tlu-m. (i. — Can yon jjive U8 an id»'a? A. — I HUppom' ab«»ut tliree and a half foot. Q. — And how Ion;:; are tlic.v? A. — <>v«>rhanK and all, wmie of them would be alMtut IT) f«»et. (J. — Do you kn<»w anything about the a|i|»lianeeH that are ealled Heal bladders that are used in eonneetion with theHe mnoeH. A. — I have never seen them UH«'d. Q. — You have UHually taken white hunterH and Itoats, have >'OH not? A. — Yes. with the exception of on«' year. , The examination of the witness elocu'd. Mr. Peters: — There was n witness named \ndrew Laini;, 10. under order of this Conimisslon, was examined b«'fore Mr. Small. 1 propose (o jait part of tliat »'videnee in so far i\H it relates to this <'ase. Tlie part of the «'videnee which re- lates to this case, and which I intend to ]iut in is tht> intro- ductory part. viz.. tpiestions «me, two. three, four and five, and the ipiestions from 5l\ to 00 inclusive. The (pic'stious are numbered. The introductory part is as follows: "1. Q. — What is your full name? A. — Andrew D»>as Lain^. '"2. Q. — In the year 1SS7 were you en){ap;ed on board the sehotmer \V. V. Wayward? A. — I was. "II. Q. — AVhat was your p<>sition on board the vessel? A. — I was mate, trader and lnterpr«>t«'r. "4. Q. — On what kind of a voyage did the "Say ward" sail? A. — Hunting seals. "5. (i.— Were you in HehriuR Sea that year? A.— Yes." Tlien there are the followini; <|u«>slions and answ(>rs: "5.1. How lonfj had you be«'n sealing befoio 1887? A. — 1880 was the tirst year 1 w«'nt into Hehring Sea, but I had been sealing; on Ihe coast from 1SM2. "54. Q. — You w«'nt into the Sea in 1SS(» in what vessel? A.— The "W. P. Sayward." "55. Q. — In what capacity? A. — .\s mate. "5(i. (i. — Did you keejt a diary that year*' A. — Yes, the same book. "5d, and before flie tlate of the si'iziire or warning.") .\. — The tlrst seals we caught in 188(» was on July (i, in Hehring S»a we got 11. ".5!». Q. — About where were you then? A. — .Miout thirty luih's olT the .Meiitian Islands. "(M». ti. — In what direction were you making? .\.--\Ve wi're going (o Ihe wesiward. On (lie 7tli we got 'J; on (.lie Sth. "i; on (he iiHIi. '.; lllli. 10; I'.Mh. lit; |:t(h. 4(1; M(h. II; 15(h, 1; ICth, 7l;17(h, 1(»7 18tli, 147; 2(Mh, 14; 21sl, 101 ; 2:!id, lO 271 7.H; Ulth, .«>; l!<>lli, M; 27tli 5; 2M(li, IS; 2mh. JM); :{Oth, ll';{; :{|Ht, 47; AunuHt 1h1, 12J); I'lid. 7(1; .{id, (W; Titli, «7; (illi, :!<>; vh. 7; Jth, V-; KKli. it, Itli. 1^, mil. I; J.Jrd, (.4; 24th, 12, iii:ikiii){ 15!Hi in Mi'liriii}; Son. Addii^ 1114 for the const catch nitikcH in all 2.710. "(51. Q. — What I'iM'w did you havo that ,voar? What class of cit'w. Indians or wliitt» ni«'n? A. — Principally Indians. "(>2 il. — How many canoes? A. — Kip:ht. "(»;{. Q. — Didn't y»)u linvc any boats? A. — One boat, the Itoat that is aboard the schoon(>r now, the stern boat. "(i4. Q. — Did the nftern boat go out every day? A. — No. "(S'l. Q. — On what occasion did it ifo out? A. — When it didn't have anvthing else to do? "(!(». Q. — Who w«'nt out in the stern boat? A. — Some- times I. and sometimes the captain. "(J7. Q. — How were you sealiiif;, with what kind of ariiisr A. — 1tr«>acli loading shot }i:uns. The Indians used n])ears but we used guns in the boats. Th«' Indians did not Iwlieve ip jiuiis in those days." Mr. Peters: — That is all the evidence of Mr. Lning that we deem to be pertinent to the case. The Cominissloner on the part of the UnitiKi States: — Have you deterniined when this vessel, the "Carolena," was cap- lured. .^i:-. Peters: — I understood it was hall past seven o'.j'ock lit (he mornliif;. The ('ommissioner on tlu' part of the United States: — This siiys half-past seven in the evening of An$;ust Hrd. Mr. Peters: — My attention has lH>en called to that. Proba- bly I am wrong, but I will enquire into it and fix !l al! right. The Coinniissi«mer on the part of the I'nited Slati's: — I would bt glad If counsel could give me the catch up to and including the first day of August. Mr. P»'ters: — We will give you that in regard to each vi'sscl. 40"' "li^o hand in the little book referred to in Mr. Laing's evi- dence. 10 SO 60 Mr. Warren: — We desire to put in, in the evidence in this case, the following from the evidence of the witness Luing: "124, y. You say you went into the Sen in 188G? A.— Yes. "12.'). Q. — You took your last seals .\ugust 24? A. — Yes. "12(». (i.— And then you left for Victoria? A.— Yes. "221. ().— Did you olttiiin your half of the profits? A.— I have never got it. "222. (.1. — l)id you make any profits that year? A. — I do 1 of know whether we made any or not. When I would ask Mr. Warren for a statement he would sjiy, I have not got any returns yet." Tlien (his further part of (he cross-examination: "14.">. Q. — You state that you had 170 or ISO wals when you were K<'izrd? A. — Xo. sir, I7S (akeii in Itehring sea, but we liiid 4SI on board when (he cutter to«»k us. "I4(i. H. — Didn't you make an aflidavit at one time that you had not taken any seals in Itehring sea? A. — I did. "147. (J. — And now you say you took 170 or ISO? A. — Yes. "14S. il. — Why is this change? A. — I thought it was no use f(»r me to stick ou( and s.iy we didn't take them. "140. i^. — Then when you made your aftidavK it was not (rue? .\.— It wasn't true. "150. Did you know it wasn't true when vou made It? A. -1 did. ppi Pipffip !!i mI'Ii . I 272 "151. y. — You Hwoiv to it? A.— I don't know wlu'tlwr we Mwoiv to It or not? "152. (i. — IHdn't ,vou niak«' an atfldavlt down lu'iv and 8wi>ar to it? A. — I'wouldu't bo positive wlio it waH iH'for*'. "15.1. (i.— lU'foie Mr. Hfl.vt'a? A.— I wouldn't Iw wrtain.' Mr. IVters: — 1 have handed iu the little book referred t«» in the evidence. Mr. I^inHin};: — There was an obje«'tion made to that book 10 at the time it was presented. Mr. IVters: — The objection was to the charncter of the evidence and not to the bk itself. Mr. Wnrren: — That is .ifjiit, tlu're was no objection t«) the book itself, but to the kind of evidence in the book. The Conimissiont^r on tlie part of the I'nited States: — What use is that book, Mr. Peters? Mr. Petei's: — Should there be any (piestion of it, it will be 2° 8«HMi from this book that the entries wt're made from time to time and at the time. The Commissioner on the j»art of the United States: — la there any question as to tliat? Mr. Peters: — Then? has b«H>n a question raised as to whether this witness in certain particulars is credible or not. In Mr. Laing's cross-examination it is brought out that Mr. LaiuK made an affidavit wliicli he admits was not correct. ._ I simplv put that book in to show that the entries were made ^ by him in that book in ISXfi. The Commissiimer on the part of the United States: — Is theiv anv question, Mr. Warren, tiiat tlie book itself is not autluntli? Mr. Warren: — I raise no question as to tlie book itself, but only as to tlu' credibility of the witness. Mr. Peters: — Vov that reason I want the book to pi in so that the ('ommitisioners may see from its a]i|M>arniice that the '^'^ entries are authenti*-. The witness himself is unable to c«ime here. The Commissioner on the part of Her JIajesty: — If there is any question about tlu' book it can t;o in for wliat it is worth. It may be tiled, but it need not be jirinted as an exhibit. Mr. Petere: — Tlie book iu'«'d not be jirinted. Tlu' Commissioner on tlie jiart of the United States: — M,v 50 learned confrere has stated the rule with repird to this. These books are prtMluced to refresh llie memory of the witness. The party producing; them cannot put them in, but if there is anytliiiifr in them <-ontradictiii); the witness tlu'y may be filed by the otiier jiarty discrediting; the book. I did not hear any question as to autlienticity of this book and so I queried as to wlietluT it was necessary it slioiild lio in or not. 60 Mr. Peters: — It is imply tiled for refen'uce. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — If it k""'** into the custody of the secretary it must be marked as an exhibit. It mi|;lit be put in but not printed. Hook marked P^xhibit 1H, (i. It., Claim No. 1. Mr. IMckinsoii: — May il please the ( ommissioners, your Honours admitted a jiaraKraph or two from the United States case as an admission of the I'nited States, showing lliat seals 273 \v«'i-t' ill II rci'tiiili )ilii«-<' ill llic M«>ii :iii n'litlil.v liiiiit- «•(!. I deHin> tlu-wfoiv to rt-ad a )ioHi(>n of tlie coiiti-xt from till' Aiiu-riran cnw. Tlw ('«»iiiiiiiKMlon«'i' on llu' pari of llu' I'liid'd Slatt'H: — Ih llim* any oliji><-tion? Mr. IVttTs: — Should not tliat roiiic in iih a |iart «tf your own (lIMt'? lo Mr. IMfkinRon: — I do not tliink tlitiv ran 1m' any oltj«'rti«»n. You raniiot i|notf a poHi«)n of a dornnuMit witlxnit putting in lli<> wlioic iH-ariiiK on tlw portion yon read. I do not )iro- pom> to put in tlif wliol(> .Vnu-riran «-aH(>, but I will put in an f.\ti'aft or two from It. Mr. IN'tt'i-H: — TIu'IV is no obji'rtioii. Mr. DifliinHon: — Tlu-r«' niniutt v«>ry w«'ll Im>. Iti'nriiiK in mind that th>> tcMtimony admittod wiih with r«'f«'r«'n«'(> to tlio prohablo catch I read from )hikch 1r, it Hnb8«M|Ucntly dies from itH in- jiiricH; the other Im by the Hinking <>f the 8eal, killed outright, before the boat can be brou;;ht aloiii^xide and the carcami Hcized by the hunter." 30 40 Tlien on pa}<;e 1!U of the tr- ceiitaKc of those killed or stunned by the shot is much less Hum when the sen is smm>th; second, the condition of the seal shot at, f<»r if br<' chint;. ^I'*' ^Ix'^ \n'\nn at the body is not liable to paralyze the animal, tliouuh it may be as fatal as when the seal is ash^'p im the water with only a portion of its liead exposed as a mark; third, the skill of the Iinut«>r is also to be considered; and, fourtli, wheth- er or not the seals are wild and hard to approach, in wliich case the hunter is from necessity com]H'lled to tire at lon^ ranp'. The Indian hunters. with their spears, who are forced to ap|)roach miwh nearer tlie P'line than a white hunter armed with a riHe or shotKiiu, 50 s|icak iiarticiilarly of the increased timidity of tlie seals siin'e tireariiis have been used in taking tliein. They also state that many seals taken by them liave shot imbedded in their bod- ies, and some are badly wounded. This, besides beinjj evi- dence of the p'eat number wounded and lost, naturally tends to make the suils fearful of the approach of men. \ot only has the increase in the number of white hunters in the las' few y«'ars made the seals much wilder than bef«»re firearms were used, but it has also added largely to the number of in- fxpcrieiiced liunters eiiKa.i^ed in sealing." Go Tlieii at the top of pa^e VM it says as foll(»ws: "Itesides tliose lost by woundiiif;. in many cases, others kill- ed oiitri}!;ht are not tak«'n, because the specific jjravity of tlie seal lN>iiiK greater than water it sinks before it can be se- < nred. In order to save as many of the sinkiuK seals as in poHsiltle. each boat t-arries a piiT. with a handle from four lo si.\ feet Innij. with wliich lo p;rapple the carcass, if the IH " I Vim 274 10 20 |H>iiit wlii'i-c it Hiiiik run Ih> i-<>ii«-h«Ml in time t«> do ><•>. Of coiirHc in wnirinK ii HinJ^ini; m'al ninrli ihn- tiUK-c from wliirli tlu' hciiI wiih Nliot, tli«> rondilion of tlio wjiti'i*. wIu'IIht ro«nli or mnootli, nnd wIiHImt or not dnrlvcn- «>d b.v t]i4> blood of tli(> animal, an alwi tlic Hiiill of tlio liuntor in niai-liinK witli liis <>,v<> tli«* place wIumv tlio Ht>al mink. It ran. tlu'rt'fon', h<> scon that the ranp' of iioHHibIt' and pi-ob- abl«> loHH in t-aHc tlu' M'al Ih killt'd outriKl>t i>* <-*'i-tainl,v lar^o, tlion);h not so K>'*'iit an when tli(> wal Ih wonndtHl. "rndci- tilt' rirrunitrtan«H'H, it is nioHt dillit-nlt to tix tlu* ac- tual number of HealM d«'Htro.v«'d and n»»t Hecui'ed b.v the Inin- tei-H iiwinK tirearma; but it iw a conwrvadve cHtiniate to Bay that Hiich liunterH los«' at leant two out of every three sealH whot by them." I And on lMii>;e 1!H> the following: "When the CHtimate. thei-efore. in placed at »ixty-Mix nealH unsecured out of every hnndn'd killed with flroarniH, the j>r«»l>- ability Ih that tlu- jtercentap' loHt \h even nuu*e. Certainly tliiH perct'ntap' is couHtantly increaHin};, fiu- the rapid fjrowth of the Healing tl«'et in the last two y«'ar8 has incn-ased the number of unskilled liunterH, and the couHtant huntinu of the herd has made the seals wilder each year than the year Itefore." That is all I desire to n-ad until your Honours have decid- ed as to the udmissibilitv of these aflidnvits. 30 40 mIMi i 50 60 witness on the part of X'ictor Jacobson was called as (ii-eat Kritain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Peters. Q. — Mr. <)acob8«)ii, where do you live? A. — In Victoria. i}. — Wiiat is your occui)ation? A. — I am a master mariner and scaler. ssful, I beli<'ve, in seal- ing? A. — I am sealing still myself every year in the small boats from the vessel. (i. — You are a liunter yourself? A. — Yes. 0. — In the y<'ar IHStJ I believe you were in the Kehrini,'^ Kea? .\. — No, sir. (i.— What shir did von own in ISWS? A.— The "Mountain Chief." Q. — She was not in the ItehriuK sea that year? A. — No. *}. — Was she en^'a^ed in t-ealiiiK that year? A. — Yes, on the coast. ii. — In 1SS7 did you ro into •({ehriiif; sea? A. — Yes, sir. the coast. ii. — In what vessel? A. — In the ".Mountain Chief." ii. — Do you remember what her tonnage was? A. — About L':t terns. ii. — How many boats or canoes did she carry? A. — Four canoes and my own caiiot>. ii. — Wiiite huntirs or Indians? A. — Indiiins. ii. — So that your whole Kealin<; out tit consisted »>f four canoes? .\. — Four regular sealiii); cano«>s. lO AO ;o 60 275 Q. — V(Mi HoiiM-tiiiK'M wont out ill yoiii- own ctinoe? A. — Yl'H. (i.-Hiit not lOKularly? A.— No. (i. — Yon cnrrinl no hojit? A. — No. ti. — Ciui you tt'll iiif wln'tluT ,vou iirnd f;iiiiM or H|M')irH7 A. — Th«' IntliiiiiH iinimI H|M-iirM, hut I iiHcd a ^un in^Mclf. (j. — Clin ,vou t«>ll iiio wluit tinu' you went into tlic liHirinp; M'ji? A. — About till' l;iHt dii.VH of .Inly. (i.— Ilavo you a log or anytliiii^' like that to n\vv tin* in- roiiiialion. A. — No. il. — Vou mil only xiM-ali from nu-inory? .\. — Tlial in all. (i. — Can you tell nn* wlu-n you loft tlu* Itt'liriiif; Soa? A. — \V«' loft Honuwhoi'o liotwoon llio 14lh and ITtli of .Kii^UHt. ii. — Why did yoii loavo ko oarly? .\. — Woll wo Haw Iho ciillor ooining inUt Un- HohrinK Hon and of ooui-ho wo got friphfonod. I thoui^ht that tiioro would ho a Hoizuro UKaiii on aorount of my knowing tlia( a soi/.uro took placo tlio yoar hoforo. 80 wo lowcrod all tho miiIIh down and tho man «»f war «'amo lu-ottv oIoho hy uh. finir or (Ivo miloH, I think, hut liodid not Hoo uh. Tho noxt mornin}: I Raw a liltio m-hoonor callod tho Triumith comintr in and a man of war hoardod lior. Ilo fold mo that ho had juHt oomo from Sitka. 1 had thon iihout 700 soalH and sot frijihtonod and wont riRlit «mt. Q. — Tho roanoii you wont out wan that you hoard of tho Hol7.uro that had takon plaoo in 1887? \. — Yos. Q. — And that wizuro was ('apt. Warrou's ship? A. — Yos. Q. — Toll mo how many wals you got in Bohrin); Koa in 1887. A. — Woll, wo had Homothint; ovoi' 7(10 — I do not roniomhor. Q. — Y'oii cannot t«'ll tho oxaot amount? A. — No. i}. — Aftor you pot int«) tho Itohrinp 80a do you r«'momh«'r how lonp it waH hoforo you hopan m-alinp that yoar? A. — .\h far an I romomh(>r wo Honlod thoro tho vory fli'Bt day. I Hoalod at tho mouth of tho Pann hoforo I pot in and I Hoalod inmdo of tho pann. Tho woathor happonod to pormit mo to po to work just as soon as wo pot to tho.st'a. Wo start od lipht away. (}. — Y'ou oniinot t«'ll mo wluMi you pot into tho Soa? A. — No. not for oortain, hul it was tho last day** »f .Inly. (2. — So that ycHi woro only in tho Soa from tho last days of .Inly until th«' 17(h of Aupusf? A. — Y'os, ahout that. Q. — .\nd durinp thai (imo <-ould you fish «'Vory day? A. — No. wo didn't pot to iishinp ov«'ry day. Q. — Wiis tho wosithor siiitahh' to fish «'vory day? A. — N«». Q. — Is it ovor suitahio to fish ov««ry day in Anpnst in your oxporionco? A — I novor saw it. Q. — What sort of woathor ran you flsh in? A. — W»' pot tho most in roal lino calm woathor. thon wo po out with ov«'ry Itoat, and it is ablo to stand tho wind and tho woathor. In fact whcnovor wo aro ahio to po in a soalinp hoat w«' launch tlioni. I have hoon out in a hoat when thoro has hwu a palo of tvind and runninp iindor douhio roof sails. Q. — Do you pot sonls in that woathor? A. — Wo pot soals wlu'iiovor wo can pot out nftiT tlioin. Q. — What is tho worst woathor for catchinp soals? A. — Tho worst woathor is rain and fop and wind. Q. — Do you romondior any particular days catch that y»»u inado in tho month of Aupu'st, 1887? A.— No. Q. — You do not romomhor tho nuinhor of soals you cauplit iiiiy day? A.— No. Q. — Do you roniomhor tho larpost day's catch? A. — I ro- nuMiihor that tho first day wo pot in wo had 97 or soniothinp, lipht away. At that liiiio I was a now h«'pinnor and so I did not pot many, hut whon I cain»> ahout throo o'clock that afternoon some of my Indians had hoh«'? wuH out- of the hint (Iii.vk of July about. By Mr. IVters: A.— That Yt'u. -That iM till' firHt day you HonhHl in lit'hriUK ^ca? A. — Q.— -.Vnd that wuh alM)ut tli«' t-iid of July uh far as you «-au rtMiu'iulH'r? .\.— Of coHrMc I «l«> not r«*nM'nib«'r I'xartly whcth- <'r it wan tht- hint day of July or the firHt of .\UKUHt. 10 ij.— lt<'Hid«R fiHhin); in Itfliriuf; Hca in 1887 did you tiHli out Hidi' of ItohriuK f**'a? A. — V«'h. sir. Q. — In tin* winit' vt'Hwl? A. — Y«'8. (j. — With tlic sanit' <'r«'w? A. — No, not with tli«' bjiuio trfw. but with Honi«> of tlicni. Q. — With till' Hanu' nunilx r of H? .\. — I had nior»' nino4>H on the (oaHt. Q. — How many ranocH on tlu' coant? A. — I luid from S to 12 on iln' "oast. (J. — Indians? A. — Y«'h IndiauH. 20 Q. — <'an you toll nn' wliat was your ctrnKt «'at«*h in that yi-ar? .\. — rtcmu'thinK b«>tw«'«'« ')(l<» and (»(I0, about fidO. Q. — And tiuit «-at<-li and tlu* 700 you mt^ntioncd uh Ix-ini; «-au}rht in Kchrinf; 8«-a. that would rt'prcHcnt your wliol«> ratrh for that y«'ar? A. — Y«»8. Q. — You di'wrlbcd the trip you laid in 1887 and tlu' num- Ikt of wala you rau^riit? A. — Yen, sir. Q. — AYould you t«*ll uh jj«'nerally Hpi'aiinK into partirulnrs, how did that turn out 'uh to (li«> profit you inadt* that y«*ar — juHt jfiv** it in r»»und fit?"ri'8? A. — I>o you nit'an th»' wa and th«' const catch too? Q. — Y«*8. A. — I think as far as I can n'mcmlu'r, I madi' b,'- tw«>4-n 14.000 and |5,000. Q.— That is net profit? A.— Yes. y. — To whom did you sell your sealskins in 1887? .\. — The first lot I ship|H>d was sold by a man called McLapin. Q. — He shipped them to London for you. A. — S'»'s. y realize? A. — Tliey realiKcd lietwecn eiuht and nine dollars a skin. (2. — \Yonld that first lot be what you called your coast catch? A.— The coast catch. Q. — \Yhnt did you d«> with your Hehrinf; sea catch? A. — I sold them to' Mr. Davis or to M4»ss, I do not wmember whicli of the two. Q. — What 'Jid you realize for them? A. — That I cannot re- member, but it was somewher' between six and seven dollars for the Mehring sea sealv. Q. — Y«tu have no exact statement of that? A. — No. Cross examinati rouHt and 7(H> In I he Hca. il. — IHd .von r«>|>nrt thoBo at tin* ruHtoni Honw Iu'H'? A. — No. H. — IH«1 voii ^^\\•^' a Htatonii-nt to tin* Finlicrv lnH|KM'tor an to how nian.v ,vou took? A. — No. H. 17 men, nnnihcr of walM from roaHt of H. ('. and (M'«>Kon niNI, valut* |:t.r)tNI; nnnilxT of himiIh from It ■lirin^ K{«'t tln'w flfrin'<>K? A. — That Ih )(u<'Bh work. Outnian an n«>r<'r in their IIvch iH'en the owner of the ".Mountain Cliief." I wuh the tirKt own«'r after tse ^iw::Hh hiiilt her, and I ov^ncd her until 1 Hold her baek to the KiwaMh apiin. il. — l>o ,vou think (hut remark applieH to all tlie ealeulalioni^ in (he reportH for lMS(i and 1SS7 — do you think the.v are );ueHH work? A. — Ah far an I know. At that time the CuHtoniH llouHe had nothing to do with our huHineHH at all uh far nn latching KealH Ih eon<-erned. We handh>d no IxxikH. and we kept no account for the (MiHtoin Iloum- olticer, or anythinju; of that kind. We Niniply entennl and cleared and we could (■at<-h an many Healn and «-atch them wherever we liked. Q. — Then if yoh have a claim b«>fore this commission? A. I have. Q.— For the venr l.s8ft? A.— Yes. Q.— For whar vessel? A.— For the "Minnie?" Q.— What is the amount of that claim? A.— ♦22,0(10, I (hink? Q. — .Vnd the principal |>nrt of that claim is made np for what. \, — The same as the rest of the claims. ' i-'J ^i: ill it , 1^ '4lMi 20 30 40 60 A. — Not wry tur. i-)iii r*>in«'iiil)vi'. Ill 278 Q. — You (lon'l iiiiHwcr iii.v i|ii«>Hlioii. Ih it iiiiulc up print-I- ]mll,v for Mk' iMilant-c of nitrli tliiil .you iiiiKiit liiivf tiikcn if ,vou IiimI not Im-<>ii iiittM-fi'i'i'd witli? A. — It wiim inadc up lli-Ht for tlu> 420 k'miIm tlu-.v took awiiy, iiiul tli«> Hiilt, iin taki'U hail thi'.v h'ft iiii> aloiio. Q. — Ih that the prim-ipal part of the claim? A. — I Hup|Nme so. Q. — How niiifh tliM'H that amount to? A.— WVll in.v H; iiu WiiM niaili* up arroriliiiK to tin* ri-Ht of the vi'hmi'Ih' (■laiiiiM, that Ih nil I know. H. — Vou «lo not know what the claim Ik for the lialaiicc of catch? A. — No, I cannot Mlatc that now. (j. — Vou never niaile a Htatei: ent iih to your ]>roliable lial- ance of the catcli? A. — I Hii|ipoHe I did, the mime uh the rcHl of them. Q. — When you hiiw tlie little "Trlumjdi" how far from llie Heal inlandK wiih hIic? A. — From which inlandn? Q. — The Heal inlaiidH? A. — Oh, any amount of way. v.e were over KM) milcH. Q. — And how far from OiinalnHka? itetweeii 20 and :tO miltt* an near an I Hide of the ITnimak piiKH. Q. — Wliicli way wmh nhe criiiHint;? A. — She wan not criiiK- in^ at nil, she wiih catchiuK hcuIh the Hiiiiie iih I did mynelf that day. Q. — She had her boats ont at the Hnme time? A. — She had HomethiuK over t»0 hcuIh, and I liad Homethin); lietween ro»f? A— >V»'II, I Kot «iv«'r L',;«M» h«')iIh with tin* liidiaiiH, iit a cohI, for Miilllt of iilioiit fl.lMM(. wliilr (Im* "Miii-.v KIIciim" hill with wliU»' iiM'ii, f«»r Iwciil.v llinM' wliito iiiuii roHt int- f4.(HI(> f»(r fiHMl. That iH thi> )litr<>n>ii(«>. (). — Ih tln'n* any rt-nHon why Wwrv wonltl not Im* tln' Hanif dltTi'MMir** in that roHiHut in 1HM7? A.— It would have hin-n th«> Hanu> thin);, if we i>ni|>loy«>(l whiti- men and IndianH m in ISfHand 1S!»4. il — X«tw, you wt'rt' aHk«>d with n'Kai-d to a i-citain tiHliery rt'ltort. Ah a nnitt<-r of fact, in the year 1KS7 wore you re- quired to put in any return whatever? A. — \o Htateinent at all. <}. — You weri' not anked to? A. — I neviT wan aHked tlien, the itiniitle thinu we had to do waH to enter and elear and pt any where we liked and do what we |denHed. Q. — Were y«»u uiHtrueted by any perwtn nt that time to keep a loR ghowiuR what sealH you eaufjht? A. — X«. Q. — Hut you firi' now? \. — Yes. (j. — In that i'e8|K'<'t an alteration hnu taken place? \. — Yesr. (i. — Hut in 1SM7 you wen* not requintl to do that? .\. — I didn't Hhlp a man on the artieleH then. Q. — In 1SH7, aH a nmtter of fact, did yon Rive any retiirn to any jM'rson? A. — \ot to my knowledge. I Bold my nealn, that Ih all I know. (). — F(»r iuHtance, did you give any return to any jiernon that thlH Hhlp waH owned by Outman & Prank? A. — No. Q. — That Ih an error in that Htatement? A. — She was 30 owned by m(». Q. — You wdd h(>r back to the HiwaHh? \. — YeH. Q. — You Bold her back to th«» Banie p«'ople you bought h«'r from? A. — Well, not exactly, iH'cauHe I did not buy her from the IndianH, but the IndiiUiH built the boat an«l I bought her from the nuin that got h(>r from tht>m and whone name I forget. Q. — That in not material, but at all eventn you sold her back to the Siwanli? A. — I sold her to Uw IndianH. yeH. Q. — You Htatid in annwer to «|ueHtionH put to \*»i by 4° Mr. LauHing, that in 1SS7 you got nliort of mipplieH, if 1 nn- derntood you ariglit? A. — No, not of BupplieB, but I wan a little Hliort of Knit. Q. — And yon were anxious to nu'et vessels «>■! that «)cca- Hion? A. — Y«'8. Q. — Did you get any suppli«>s from any veKsels? A. — \o. Mr. Peters: — I do not propose to w-e.xamine this witness as to the crosH-examination with regard to the case of ISSJI, I will let that stand on its own basis. 50 rx) Kxaminntitm of Mr. Jacobson closed. Captain J. B. Warren, (already examined as a witness in 111*' caw) r(>-cnlled as a witness on the part of tSreat Hritain, and duly sworn: Direct examination by Mr. Peters. Q. — You told us, ('aptain Warren, that vou had command of the "Dolphin" in 1«S0? A.— Yes. Q. — And you sailed on her in Hchring sea? A. — I sailed on her in 188t5. both on the «-oast and the s«'a. (i. — At what time of the year did you enter the sea? .\. — On the 2nd of July. Q.— And on what time did you leave it? A. — On the 12th of August. Q. — What was yonr total catch from the coast and in the sea that year? A. — Mv total catch for that vcar was nbout 2.fi7a, I think. WTtt^ Jit i 280 Q.— Aii«1 wliiil «1i«l ,viitri«*H? ti.— Ill Hint iMiok? A.— Vi'M. (j. — At what tiiiii' iliii VOII iiiakt' tliiMu? 10 20 30 'llMt! i 50 60 A.— At tlu' tliiH'. A.- AftlT till' iit'Xt morn 2nd nf .hii.v. Would you turn to that nii'nioranduiu ItiHik in .vour hand to about that dati*. ltff lonkiuK )>< ll>"t ]<>•*( Htat<> how niaii.v raiio«-H .vou liad on the "Molphin"? A. — I had I'i lanoi'H "lid oni> boat. (j. — WaH thf boat avaihiblf for the tiiin* you w«-r«' in thi> wn? A. — \o, tin* boat wax run by tlu' I'lipiniM'r. Wv lost tlu' boat on th<> 4th of .liilv, I think it waH, and K<>t l>*'r luii-k on 1li«> 24th. (i. — Von loHt the boat for alioiit 21 da>M? A. — Yi'». (J. — How many liiintt'rH wi-w in lh«t«' raiioi'H? A. — Two in eiu'li. Q. — W«'r«' tln-y liidianH or wliltt* men? A. — IndianH. Q. — And how many of tlu'iii linntrd? A. — TIii'im- witi' not alwayH two liiintcrH, Homt'tiuu'H tlu'i'i* waH ini'i-i'ly a rHnn<> Ht«'«>r<>r and an <'X|N-ri<'nci'd Indian hiinti'r. Konu'tinitm tlu>r<> would be (wo cxiN'rit'iiciMl Indian hiintiTM in tin* i-nno<>. H. — How many all (old. in tin* i-anoc? .V. — Two. Homo- tiiiicH th<>y would lie both i*x|M'rirH, and on** would |iaddli> and the otlivr oii«> would Mtrikc the wnl, or Kmiictliin x (licy would bo(h H(rikf tlu' wal. (i. — And ai-tiially hundnt; in I'nrh caiioi' how Miny wow tlu'ii? A —Two. Q. — Hut you Hiiy that one had to paddlo and iiianai;<' the raiioo? A. — Woll. Hoim-tinirH if tla-y i-amo on (wo walH, both would Mtriko. Q. — Hut aH a riili' 0110 wnn to nianafrc thi' fano«> and the otlwT (o hunt or Htrikf tin* wnl? A. — S'«'h. Tho ('oiiimiKHioni'r 011 llir part of Hor Maji'sty: — Wore thow (wo |H'rMoiiH till' only oih'h in tho <-an«N>? WitnoHK:— That \h all. Ky Kir proparod to hunt if (hoy );ot tho oiniuoo? A. — Tlioy woro lio(h praotii-al Hpoai-f' iiioii. (j. — Looking at that diary of yoiii-H. would you turn to .Inly iho 2nd— Kir CharloR Tiippor: — With (ho i-ons:'nt of tho (^omiiiitiKion- orj< and of oounsol on tlio othor sido. ]M*rliap!« I had iM'ttor load llio witnosH on (IiIh ovidoiiro so aK (o oxjiodito mattorx. Ho liaH a book in hit) hand and 1 havo notoH of tluit book. To witnoHs: of ontorinfT A. Q. — On July tho 2nd liavo you an ontry tlion' tho pans with tho "Thornton" in tow? A. — Yoh. (i. — And you spoko tho "A If rod Adanifi" on that dnto? — Tho "Adams" was K<>ii>K '" »'♦ f III*' -n«l of .liilv? A.— Vi-h. I ^ot iihf w.'il I lull wiiiK* aft«-rii*M»u. H. — Aim! I hii|i|h»h4> on IIm* :irr«Hl tilt' niiHH'M iiihI I |{ot H7 wiiIm tliiit diiir.v. y. — You liHV*' till' diary tlwr*'? A. — Y«'b. (j. — IIhv«> you K<>t tlu' liitltiuU' and lonKitud«> In wlih-li your in Hliip wuM on tli«' -'Ird of July, 1SN7? A.— Latltudf M dt'itni'H 54 ialnul«*H north, and hinKltudf HMt dr^rffH 2*J niiinit«-H wt'Ht. H. — Xow «in llu' 4th of iluly you rauulit no wuIm? A. — No. (^ — \nd on th«' 5th of .luly what did you do? A. — On tht> .'ith of .luly I don't think I raui;ht any w-alH. ti. — And Sth of July? A.— On th«> Hth nf July I • aiiKht r>.'t M«>alH. 20 *i' — *'"" >■*•" k'v«' tlu' |K)Mition of yonr Hrhmmfr on tliat day? A. — l^atitudi' n't d«>Kr4'«'H 24 minuti'M north, lonKlliidi* Itli of July, what did you do? A.— I caught l!2 M'alM on thf '*>li. (j. — l (■au);hl? A.— 21 wi'H' niUKht by thi' canofH and on«* waH Hliot by tlu- niato. il — Prom wIm"-' A. — Krom tlio HclKMrncr. Q. — Wluit wan your |Mtsitioi) >in the !»th? A. — Latltnd<' R.l 30 dt'Kni'H 21) minutoH norti), and lonitiludt' l(i4 d4>t:r*'*'M 57 min- llll'H Wt'Mt. (^ — And on ilit* lIKli of July did you K«'t any mnilH? A. — I Kot no ^K'alH on th4> KMh I bt'livvc. (i.— IIow many did yoti K<'t «n tlu' llth of July? A. — 4.1 wals. (J. — AnytliiuK <'1h«'? A. — TlinH* piipM, Init (lion' woiv n-nily only 4.'t RcalH. Q. — What waH your |>oHition on that day? A. — Latitude ■*ir).i;{ north and hmgiludr l(i.'..'Ht. 40 Q. — And on the 12th of Julv how many walB did you takt*? A.— ai. Q. — WIm'W did tlw* cancM-s H«>al that day, won* t\wy near tlu* Nliip? A. — TIh' «'ano»'H had to Htay ••low to tin- vc'swl on account of tlic> fof;. il — How manv walH did v«)U ratrh on July the lUth? A. — fis. Q. — And what |HiHilion waH tlu* Hhip in tliat day? A. — Latitude .~i4..*>» norlii, liOUKitude lli4>..t!> went. Q._And on the 14th of Julv how many neals did y<»u p't? 5° A.-lfi2. Q.— What was the |MiHition of the Hhi|i that day? A. — Latitude 55.07 north, Lont'iliide lW,Af< west. Q._()ii the l.'itli of Julv how manv seals did you >{«'♦? •^■ — 2«. (i.— What was the |Mnillon »f ll-e ship that day? A.— liHtitud*' 55 dejiiees 11 minutes north, hiuKitude llitJ dejirees •M minutes west. Q.— How manv seals did you Ret on the 10th of July? A. — 5,S. Q_'vi,nt was the |N)sition of the shij) that day? A.— Latitude .V».;iO north. Lonpitude lfi7.35 west. Q.— ITow manv seals did you get on,the 17th of July? A. 14. {>.— What was the itosition of your ship on that day? A. — Latitude 55..'M) north and longitude 1«8 west. Q.— The romniissioner on the part of the United States:— Had not the witness. better read that all rijjht tbrouKli? r<5 i'!' II m w fTTT <(»M|: i lO 20 30 40 so 60 KoahTH? A. — I I took 14 H*>alH; That (lav wf On tl»' l'r>t)i of 282 Rir rhaiit'H Tuppt'r: — IVrlinps it will Have tlinp. (To tlu' wItlU'HH) : (j. — Take tlu' position of (lie «lilp and tlu' ratcli «'a»'li day and Htat«' tlu> nnnihcr of 8«>alH (■aii<;lit t'acli day and tlic lati tnd«' and lonj;itndc of tlic sliip witliout my UKkinn you? A. — On tlu' IStn of .Inly wo K<>t l'*<* i^oalH, ant' the latitude was tirt.'M north, longitude 1(>S.L>4 woKt. Tho n«'xt day I t UiT-'tO west. Kifihted the "Orace, " and ;;ot our boat back. July we tht ',* seals*, latitude 55.1(> north, lon(;itude l(i5.;M west. On thv 2Sth of July we «-auKht 45 seals; lati- tude 55.1 north, lon!<;itude l(i5.:{() west. ii. — How was the weather that day? A. — Fair at noon, fojiuy. (t)nsiderably eo. Q. — l'n»eeed now. A. — On the 2!»th of July we eau^ht !>0 seals; latitude ."il..")4 north lon$j;itude lfi<>.4.'{ west. (J. — What sovt of weather tliat day? A— Cloudy day but fine, veiy little wind. On July :{Oth we c-au};ht 1S4 seals; lat- itude 54:4!) north, lon{;itude 1(!7:();{ west. On the :Ust of July we eiiu^ht ISO seals; latitude .'J4:41 north, longitude l(i7:21 weht. (i. — What sore of weather that day? A.— Thick fofj; in the niornin;; and didn't lower boats until !) o'eloek. On August 1st we not V.y.i seals, latitude 54.:{!) north, lonf;itud(> lli7..'{7.57 wi-st. y. — That is your latitude and louf^itude on the 2nd of Aup- ust? A. — Yes, that would be about noon. Q. — Did you make out what the cutter was? A. — I made out that she was a cutter with three sealers in tow. Q. — What did you do then? A. — I called in the canoes and started to (iie soutli to leave the ground that I was in, with the object of ^oing to fill up with water to be ready to go home. Q. — Had the si};ht of the cutter anythintr to do with your 8t«'erinjj south? A. — It had everythinn to do with it. Q. — (live vour lalituHe and lon}{itude for the next dav? A. —On August the .Srd, latitude 54.08 north, longitude" 10(i.5S west. On .\ugnst 4tli we c.-inie to anchor in a snuill harbor with a wry lonj; name, wliicli I cannot make out. Q. — On the ."^rd of August did you take any seals? A. — On the Itrd of August I got .^(^ seals. Q. — On your soutlujly course you put your boats out? A. — Yes. Q. — IMweed now? A. — The next day I filled up with wa- ter, I canu> ont again on tlie .fith. or between tlio night of the 4th and 5th, and oa the 5th of .\ugust I got two seals; lati- tude rA.a north longitude 1(57.18 west. On the (ith of .\ngust I got (>:{ seals; latitude .').5.1 north, longitude l(i7.41 west. On the 7th of .\ugust I got no seals, and on the 8th of August 1 got 10 seals. i}. — What did yon see on the 8th of August besides seals? A. — It was thick weather and I see I was lying to most of the time. (J. — Have you any other entry as to sigiitlng vess«'ls on that day? A. — No, the 10 seals we got is the principal entry. Our latitude was 54.44 north, lon%ihide l(i0.2t) west. On 283 20 30 AuKUBt the <.)th tluM<> wiih ii titltk fog until 2 p.m., latitutU* '(4.40 uurtli, luiij^itiule Uiti.l'd west. \Vi> cmiKlit 4S hcuIh in the aftei'iKKtii, and it Met in fttnay a^ain. On Augutit the lOtli we ean^ht 141 Heals; latitude 54.41 north, longitude l<>(i.2S west. On AuKiiMt lltli we ean)j;Iit 14 Heals; longitude 54.45 north, longitude lUtS.!) went. ii. — Now, did you Heal after that in that year? A. — Not that year. (i. — You proceed«'d ttlraight for N'ictoria? A. — I proceed- in <'d down the eoant junt to land the IndiauH and then came Htraight up here. Q. — What part of the eoant? A. — ('layoquot. (i. — And then you eanie right to Vietorui? A. — Yes. (). — In 1SS7 I believe you w«'re in the Bea again, but yon wei'»> B»'i/.ed almost as soon as you got in? A. — Yes. (J. — Tliat was earlf- in July? A. — Yes. Q. — How many days were yon Healing, do you remember? .\. — Well, on foiir days I caught Heals. One day I g»»t one, lint I think that was shot from the vessel. I}. — What dav were vou seized? A. — On the 12th. (i.— «y what cutter.' A.— The "RuhIi." rross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q.— What is the tonnage of the "Dolphin"? A.— I think it was 7.'J. Q. — KegiHtered tonnage. A. — Registered tonnage? ti. — And she was equipped with Hteam, I beli«'ve? A. — Y«'s. (.}. — Was she using steam power'in 1886? A. — Yes. Q. — I suppose she could move around where a sailing ves- sel could not? A. — Yes, sometimes, if we wanted to. (i. — You could i)Ut yourselves in a position where the seals were better than could a nailing vessel? A. — If it was calm we <'ould. Q. — It was calm sometimes? A. — Yes. (i. — The best sealing weather is when it is calm? A. — Yes, as a rule, or light winds. Q. — And on a perfectly still day, if it were possible for a 40 sailing vessel to get where the seals wen> she would meet with the best wsults, would she not? A. — Yes, if she wishwl to. Q. — And your steam schooner could do that. A. — Yes, if she wanted to mov«' her position she could do so better than n sailing vessel in a calm day. (i. — You coiild move your steam vessel on a calm day? A. Yes. Q. — Then «m the best days for sealing the "D«)lphin" could get around when such a vess»'l as the "(^arolena" could not? A. — She could do it, but as a rule we lay still with the ves- sel when sealing. ii. — Do the seals come around the ship? A. — No, the snmll boats go for the seal. Q — llow far out from the ship do the small boats go? A. — They go just until they can see the nuists of the vesB«'l. Q. — Docfi a steam vessel pick the boats tip, or do they re- turn to her? A. — Tliey return. We do not know where the boats are, and we have to wait or we would lose them. Q. — The "Dolphin" appears to have not moved much be- tween the Ih'd of July, wheti you commenced sealing in Ileh- ring Sea in ISSii and until you sighted the "forwin?" A. — Oh. yes, she moved conHiderable. Q. — Were there any days during the year that yon moved nior<« than the "Caroiena" conld have moved? A. — I do not know in the Sea. Q.— Were there any windy days in that year? A. — Home 50 r.o '1 . 1,-, I mi ! 'r! I \m iifrwfw*^ Mi'li 284 (la.v8 woro very wind.v and «i)in«' dnjs very calm, some days dead mini. Q. — Did you hear Ihc ti'Mtiiuony of llu* witix'HH, Captain lirai;^, this morning rc^ai-diiiK davH in tliat year wli«>n it wan ini])088ibl(> for Iiini to do ;iny sealing? A — V»'8, I lu'ard liini name bad days for Iiim wlicn I Inid pood 8<>alinK days. Q. — You appear to liave liunted every day in -July, praeti- cally? A. — ^'ery nearly. Q. — And wliat would be the differeni-e in this r«'«iH'et be- 10 tween your vessel and the "M.iry Ellen?" A. — The differ- enee in this t-ase wiis that she was farther to the westward out in the BehriuK Kea, while I »\a8 inside and in shelter. Q. — That would nnike a ditTereuee, would it? A. — It makes quite n differtMK-e. Q. — When were you in sigiit of the "CarolenaVA. — I b»'- lieve I read out that it was on tlu» 2;Jrd of July. Q. — I take it you did not sw her on any other day? A. — I do not remember now, but if it is noted in the book I did. Q. — Tell me the latitude and lonjjitude of your shij* on 20 the 10th of Au>,'"st? A.— Latitude 54.41 north, lonjjitude l(;(i.2S '.vest. Q. — How far and In what direction would the "Mary El- lon" be, if she was in latitude IR.t.SO north and longitude 170.3(1 w«'8t. can you t«'H? A. — She would be four degrees, of longitude further to the westward. Q. — How nutny miles? A. — Hetwen 150 and UOO marine miles; 00 minutes of longitude is not a full marine mile. Mr. Peters: — I do not wish this to go down on the notes as 30 the statement that it is the log of the "Mary Ellen." Mr. ^^arren: — I do not put it on the record as that. I said if the "Mary Ellen" was in such a position how far away would 8ln« be? A. — On that day I was well in to land in the neighborhood of I'niinak I'jiss. Q. — You appear to have taken 141 seals on that dav? A. Yts. Q. — Was the sealing as good down there as it had bec-n vp in the Sea? A. — I got into a batch that day and did well, considering the place. Q. — On the Olh of August you appear to have taken (!.'{ seals. Had you moved down toward the pass at that time? A. — I was coming towards the pass at that time? (J. — I understood you to say tlmt the "Dolphin" had eight canoes that year? A. — Twelve canoes. Q. — And two Indians in a canoe? A. — Yes. y. — And both the Indians were somethnes hunting? A.— The two Indians wenr together in tlu' .same canoe to hunt. Q. — They were using spears, were they not? A. — Most of them used s]>eai's, but I think s(mie of them had guns. (i. — Were they all furnished with guns (hat year? A. — 1 do not think they ail had giuis. but some of them had guns. Q. — They i»ractically di«i their sealing that year with sjx'ars? Yes. sir. (i. — And both the Indians in each <'an(»e w«'re e(|ui]>]M'd wi(h spears? A. — Yes. they were all e<|ui|)ped wKh spears. (). — And you did not see the Indians use (he spear in (lie boats? A. — I have seen (hem spear. (5q Q. — Both at the same time? A. — I know (hey both sp«'ar- ed sometimes. Q. — As a martt'r of fact, you did not see the canoes when they were away about their business sealing? Only some of the time. Q. — And it may Ih> possible (hat both of the Indians liunt(Ml most of the time? A.— It might be possibh> for all 1 know. 0. — What is the probabilKy as (o tha(? .\. — I think some of the time thev did. 40 SO rj! lO 20 285 Q. — l)i<1 you make ai n'poil to the lii'itiMli CoiiiiiiiHHioni'i'H lu'W at Viftoria tunnv .rears ajjo? A. — I do uot remember doing so. Q. — Did you ever state that your HehriuK Ken eateh iu 1880 on the "Dolphin" waH !MM)? A.— No. (J. — You never did? A. — No. I n«'ver did. (J. — Did von ever state tliat vour coast eateh on the "Dol- pliin" in 1S8« was l(t4(»? A.— No. . . .M. Peters: — If my leariieses to eontnidirt liiis witness on any jioint of tliis liind, tliat is hardly the way lo lay the foundation. If he is eross-examinin); him on any statement, it is usual to put the statement in the hands of the witness. Mr. Warren: — The ol)j«'«t of juodueiim these hooks and askinji the witness about tliem, is to show the unreliability of these statistics more than for any other purpose. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper: — We know nothing about your statistics or this so-called report. I think I am right in saying that the usual mode of cross-examining is to show the witness a professed statement and ask him if he made it. Mr. Diekin«i«»i! : — There is no doubt thai that is tlie rule if he ii" examined about a statement made by him, but we have not mirtion. The (.'oiuniissionei on the part of the I'nited States: — As I understand it is not asserted that this is a statement pur- ^° porting (o be made by him. He is simpiv asked if he made that statement. It is not a letter signed by him or anything of that sort. Sir rharles Hibbert Tupper: — We assumed that Mr. War- ren waf reading from ■>. book which lie had in his hands, iu putting (he question to the witness. Mr. Warren: — I did read from a book. 40 Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper: — From a report nuule by the witness, Captain Warren? .Mr. Warren: — No, from a report of the llehring Sea C«Mn- miss{(m. Witness: — 1 understand what he was reading from. Cross-examination by Mr. Warren continued. Capt. Warren, I show you volume 4 of the Fur Seal .Vrbi- 50 (nitimi proceedings, American re-print, being the case of ♦ ileal IJritain and I call your attention to the table containd im (he marginal paging 4 known as Kxhibit "R H," and I ask \ou if you are not the originator of that table? \. — Very likely I am. ti. — Did y, ves- (>o mm m i r 386 Mt'lt* tbnt I knew to be in the sen. and tliom' I did not linow to be in the sea I left out. Q. — Where did you get tl>e iuforniution as to wliat they t-niiglit in Rehring Sen? A. — From sncli reiioits as I could j?et from sealers or any other way I conld p-t at it. Q. — I call your attention to the affidavit, or de«'laration, as yon ])lease to call it, fonnd in marginal itaf^es '2 and :< of tlie same volume of the Hritish case, and I 'lire<-t your attention jQ specifically to puragraph 8, and I ask you if you did not swear there that the table came from the Canadian Fisheries Re- jiort? A. — I suppose I took it from that report and any other sources that I could get it from. Q. — I desire to read this paragraph 8 into the record, and I call the witness' attention to tliis: "The exhibit hereto annexed is the statement of the catch of IH sealing vessels in and about the Hehiing Sea, during so much of the season A.I). 188<>, as they were in Iteliring Sea." It is declai-ed here that that is "substantial, true and correct," and you say 20 that this is, "substantial, true and correct from your own personal knowledge." Do you mean to swear, C'aptain War- ren, that Schedule IJ is correct from your own pei'sonal knowledge? A. — As far as I know that is the catch for the schooners of 1886. Sir t'harles Ilibbert TujuM'r: — That is not ]mragia])h 8. So that the record will be right, it is wt'll to read the whole of paragraph 8 to which you have called tlie attention of the witness. 30 Mr. Warren: — Very well, I will read paragraph 8. follows: It is as mIMo ) 8. The Exhibit (IJ) liereto annexed is a statement of tlii- cntch of thirteen sealing vessels in and alxnit tlie Hehring Sea during so much of th»' season of A.l). 188(5 as they wer»> in Itehring Sea. The statement is taken from the report of the inspector of fisheries for the Province of Hritisli Colum- bia for tlie y«'ar 1880, as «-ontained in the rejMirt of the I)e- 40 partment of Fisheries for Canada at pages 248 and 240, and I verily say, frmn personal knowledge of the facts, that the said statement is substantial, true and correct. The schoon- ••rs "Carolena," meaning the "Carolena" herein mentioned, and "Thornton" and "Onward"' were seized on the Ist and 2nd August, 188(!, and ilieir voyages thus broken up; the scli«»on- «'rs "Mary Tayhu'," "Mountain Cliief," "Hustler" and "Kate," not having been in IJehring Sea during the season of 188(i, the cat«'li of these above-named scho(tners are not included in estimating the average catch in Behring Sea for that y«'ar. SO On account of The seizures made on the 1st and 2nd August aforesaid, and of the schoon«'r "Favouiite" being on? • '^ out of the sea by the commander of the said "Corwin," thi- thir- teen vi'ssels mt>ntioned in Exhibit (H), witli one or two ex- ceptions, left Itehring S«'a or llie best scaling grounds tlien^- in, long before the close of the sealing seas(m, and thus the average catch as found in Exhibit (It) is fully, as I verily b*>- lievB, .'500 skins less than it would have been had they all re- mained till the end of the season. 60 Sir Charles Ilibbert TupiM'r: — Had vou not bett»'r rend E.t- hibit "B" into that? Mr. Warren: — Exhibit "B" is as follows: — EXHIBIT "B." Number of seals taken Ity «'ach of the following thirteen seal- ing vessels during the year 188(> in and ab«)iit Behring 10 40 (10 287 H«'H, most of tlu' Hiiid voHst'ls louviiig the Sea before the end of tlie KeuHou, fearing capture: No. of Vi>88el8. Real 8kinH. "I'athtlmler" 1,7«« "Mury Ellen" 4,256 "Therewi" '2fi'25 "Pavonrite" 3,325 "Hlaik Diaintind" 1.760 "Alfred Adanin" 2,405 "Aetive" 2,275 "( 'ity of Kan I »i«'go" 1 .020 "Hilvia Handy*' 1,587 "Dolphin" 2,(501 "Anna Iteek" 1.400 "Orate" 2.550 "Sayward" 2,725 Total eateh 30,!),')5 Average per vessel 2,381 (To witness): (i.— Captain Warren, when yon stated tlij-.t the catch of I he "Mary Ellen" was 4,250 skins in Itehring Hea, is that right? A. — I suppostt that is the information I had at the (iiue. il. — Did you hear the witness testify that he took 1869 out- HJde of Hehring Sea? A. — I heard him say so this morning, yes. (i. — When yon said the "Favourite" took 2,325 in Behring Sea, did you understand that that included the coast catch as well? A. — This morning? Q. — No, when you made the statement. Sir Charles HiblMU't Tupiwr: — Exhibit "B," inste.id of stat- ing tliat any of these vessels took so many sealskins in lieh- liiip; Sea, says: "Nuniber of sealskins taken by each of the following thir- li'en sealing vessels during the jear 1880 in and about the Hehring Sea." The Witness: — That is what I put tlie "about" there for; because I did not know the difference in the catch. The Commissi<»ner on tlie part of the United States: — In paragraph 8 th<.' witness says "in Hehring Sea," and it seems to me the cross )>xamination should go along. Sir (Jharles Hiblwrt Tupper: — I objected to the statement thai the witness said these seals were taken in Hehring Sea iiH being based on E.xhibit "H." Xfr. Warren: — The witness based a claim for the average catch in Hehring Sea npon the catch which he knew perfectly well was not made in Hvhring Sea. This is the object of the cross-examination. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It is (piite clear, Mr. Warren, and you had better put your ques- tion. (Cross examination by Mr. Wrarren continued): (i. — Do you call the (California coast "about" Hehring Ren? A. — The Pacific Ocean is :iboiit ll"hring Sea. Q. — Are the California and Oregon coasts about Hehring Sea? A.— It is some distance from Hehring Seu. , I I m 288 M i'l '«»'(l. 1 ! 50 60 A.— 1,4«M) oi- 1,500 it would bt* abuut "III 11 lid nboiit Hell- tlic Calif(»rnia and Q. — How far is it from Uflii-iii}^ Ki'a? milt*, Q.— Till' ('alifoiiiia coast? A.— I'uit o." 1,};y. ' liiij? Sea," did .you intend that to cover Oi-egon coasts? A.— It was this way: I did not know what she caiiKht in the Hea and what outside. I could not 8ei>ar- ate llieni. because I liad not the inroiination in my poss«'s- 10 sion. I was inKtructed at Ottawa to make out the catch feu- IJehring Sea, which I could not jtossibly do, for I did not have the fljjures. and I jmt it in that way.' Q.— Did you see the little "Triumph" in Kehrinfr Sea in ISSfi? A. — I do not remember seeinjr her there in 1S.S<;. Q.— What vessels did you set? in tln' Sea in 1S8(»? A. — I saw the "Onward," the "('arolena," the "Favourite," the "An- na Beck," the "rJiace,' the "Laura." and an American vessel, and another A>iierican vesmd I do not reinem.hj'r. Q.— Captain Warren, do you think that the catch of the 20 "Dolphin," l>ein>; a vf.'ssel al)out 70 tons, carrying twelve ca- noes and two hunters in a canoe, is a fair basis on wlii«-h to estimate the prosjiective cat«'h of the "<'arolena," which was J! boat of 27 tons, haviiii; four canoes, and one hunter in each canoe? A. — I had two in each canoe, the same as them; proi>ortionate, yes. Q. — Answer the question, please. A. — I say in'oi)ortlon- ate. Q. — What do you mean by that? A.- -I do not think that the "Carolena" should catch as many seals as the "Dolphin" 30 should catch. Q. — Should she take as many in each canoe? A. — I do not see any reason wliy she should not. Q. — Then there is no advantage in a steam vessel? A. — On the sealing };rounds w«? do not have to use the steam, for we lie idle. We do not even use the sails except very little. W»' generally lay under the foresail. Steam is an advan- iaffi.' in <;oinf; in for water and things like that. Q. — Does the result of the sealing voyage de|H>nd to any extent on the eyjHM'ience of the hunters? .\. — Oh, yes. 40 Q. — Do you know what the capacity was Hehring Sea." Will yon look at that Exhibit (H) to which your at- tention was called, and I will read from the annual rejtort ot the Depariment of Fislieries of the Dominion of Canada for the year lHS(t, tii«' statisti«'s wliich appear there. You will tell nu' whether these figures disagree frcnn that Kxhibit. 17(i(> skins were taken l»y the "Pathfinder" in 1.SS(>. What is the number vou have got there? A. — 17 here. (i.— The "Ulack Diamcmd," l.7«{0? A.— It is the same here. (i.— The "Alfred Adams," t?.4(ir.? A.— It is the same here. (}.— Tin ".\ctive." 2,27.')? .\.— It is the same hew. (J.— The "Dolphin," 2,tMil? A.— It is tlie Kline lieie. 2.Sy Q. — Tliiit Ih tli«> Htoiimcr ,v(ui wcrt' «'xaiiiiiu>d iiboiil tliiH r«»i'c>- IMMUl. i8 it UOt? A. — Yt'8. (i.— The "Anna Hi'ck," 1,400? A.— It in tlu- Haiiu' liore. (i.— Tilt' "(Jraci'," L'.nuO? A.— It \h t\w mmw liciv. (/. — Tlu' "Ha.vwanl." 2,72.'? A. — It is tln' nanu' Ihtc. (i. — liavo you aii.v otlicrH on tliat llHt? A. — Y«'K, tlu' "rit.v of Kan IMojso," f«)r l,(»-'0. and tlu' "Hvlvia Handy," for l.r.S7. Q. — Whoiv waH tlial stati'mont niado tliat is in your luinds, 10 and al)(Mit wliicli you Iiavo Iteon examined? A. — It must Imve lieen tal^en at Ottawa. (i.— In wluit year? A.— In 1SH7. Q. — Did you see tlie statiHtics in tlie Dominion Fisliery Ue- |tort of 1SS(» hefon' maltin); tliat? A. — I t-annot just remeni- lier wlietlier I did or not. t^. — From wluit otlier miuree could yon have >jot (hat in- formation in repird to these vessels. The "City of San Diejjo" and tlie "Sylvia Handy" were Ameriean vessels, from what otlier soun-e could you have aoi tliew finiires? A. — I do not 20 think I could hav«> n»t them from any other source. Q. — Do you know of any other source from which you could have jfot these fij;nres? A. — Excejit I got them from some of tlie sealers' reports. Q. — When you were preparing; these claims at Ottawa, wer»» you assisted by the officers of the Marine and Fisheries De- jiaitment? A. — I was. Q. — Was the "Mary Ellen" a steamer? A. — No, she was a sailing; vessel. Q. — And you say that in Kehring Sea, auxiliary steam ves- qC sels such as the "Dolphin"' would seldom use steam. A. — It was very little use at all while in the Sea. Q. — It was used to >jo on the direct voyage and back? A. — More going in and out of harl>ors and through passes and such places imi-ticularly. Q. — When you said you were the originator of the table before you, have you any desire to ex]>Iain what you mean l>y the "originator of the table" which includes the "City of San Diego" and the "Sylvia Handy"? A. — Well, I was with the ollu'i's in getting up this table to show what the doings of the ^o v<'ss('l were in the sea. (2. — I have called your attention to the introductory lan- guage at the top of Exhibit (H), which says these skins were taken in and al)out Hehring Sea," and paragriiph S contains a similar statement. What ex]>lanati(in have you to nnike in connection with the discrepancies b»'tw«'en the statistics of the .Marine and Fisheries de]>artment report and tlie discreji- aiicies in Exhibit (H), and the evidence which you have given? .\. — I do not know that I exactly understand you. H. — For instan<'e, you made tli«' statement that the "Dol- "o |»hin" took 2,(!01, and in your evidence today you say it is something less in Hehring Sea? A. — Yes. ii. — What explanation have you f«n' including the skins that were not taken in the sea. A. — I was not in a position to detlne just wliat was caught in the Sea at that time, and if 1 did it for one vessel, I could not have done it for the others. {}. — For how many persons were y()u acting in Ottawa in 1M,S7? A. — I was acting for all the claimants. Q. — You are the Mr. Warren who is already mentioned in r,o these atfidavits in connectitm with the case of (Jreat Britain? A.— Yes. (J. — .\nd you made these statements on your information and belief at that time? A. — Yes. (-i. — From the best information that you could put yonr hands upon? A. — Yes. lie cross-examination by Mr. Warren. Q. — Do you mean to say that you based the schedule known ;is "Schedule H" entii-ely upon the facts collected from this 11> ■Mm mm I m m m III! Pi I m Rpprnp II MIMii ; 290 tlHlu-rv r«'iM»i-t ami thai jou iiiadt* It pui-t «»f yo»v iittidavit? A.— I do uot Hn.v poHitivcl.v that I pot It all from that. I think 1 fiot it from maiiv otIuT hoiiim-ch. (^ — If H(H',mH to Im> an i-xact copy in so far as somp of the vchhcIh are c-onfoim-d? A. — It varicH, but most of them art- th<» Haine. Q. — Wlilch one is dllT«'r«'nt? A. — I called attcntitin to It in m.v «'vid«»n«'<». Q. — In "Exhibit M" it happ«>nH that tlicre Is a misprint and lO that tlu- «-at('h of th«' "Pavonrit«>" is wronp- Tlie total, how- t'vcr, adds up I'ifjht if we corroct the misitrint? A. — It Is pi-int«>d in tiie Exhibit as two tlit>nsand and somt'thinp. (i— l?nt th«' total in "Sclu'duh' R" shows that tho "Favonr- itf's" catch should be over three thousand. With that ex- ception it is an exact cojt.v of wiiat Sir Charles Tu]>]ier has just read? A. — It may be. (J. — I>id you not jnst com]>are it with him? A. — With that exception it is the same, I think. (}. — What did you mean when you stnt«'d in your affidavit, 20 "And I verily say from personal knowledfje of the facts that the said statement is substantial, true and corre«'t? A. — Yes. as far as I knew. i}. — I>o you mean that the boats had actually nmde these catches or that that was taken from the Candian Fisheries Kei»ort? A. — It meant as far as 1 knew. I was not there, to know what the catch was, and 1 could only take it from some report. (J. — You do not pretend to say that that is any- thin<; more than a copy «»f what was found in th(> Canadian 3° Fisheries Report? A. — It must be consid«'rably that way. Q. — Yon don't mean to say that you could swear to the catch of each of these vessels from your personal knowledge? A. — I do not pretend to. Q. — As a matter of fa<'t. In IHSO and 18S7 the customs house had nothing to do with the catch of the vessels, did it? A. — I do not think if. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — When YOU had two Indian hunters in each canoe what lay were 40 they on? Witness: — We gave the Indian hunters |2 on each skin; that was |1 each. Sir Charles HiblM-rt Tapper: — I would call the attention of the Conunissiont'rs to what Is evidently a misprint in the (htcnment quoted from. This document puritorts to be drawn up by those trained in the law, and the phrase clearly was "Substantially true and «'orrect," as is usual. The word "Substantial" is evidently a misprint for "Substantially." We will put in the original. Mr. Dickinson: — We will accept that as the statement. 50 60 William O'Leary was called as a witness on behalf of Great Itritain and duly sworn. I)ireVilliam O'Leary? A. — Yes. Q. — You live in Victoria? A. — Yes. (i. — And you are a mastt'r marin«'r? A. — Yes. (f. — You came to N'ictoria in April. 1HS(>? A. — I came on the 17th of April. ISSfi. (J. — You cani"' round on tlu' "Pathfinder?" A. — Yes. (}. — You brought lier here? A. — Y<'S. Q. — From wlial place? A. — From Halifax, Nova Scotia. 29 1 A. 10 30 H. — Yon never had Ix'en in llritiHli Colnnibin lM'f«>re? —No, that wuH ni>- tii-Ht time in ItritiHli (.'ulnnibia. (i. — The "rntlirtndei" waH a Healinf^ ve^Hel? A. — She waB. Q.— You mty y^u urriv( J in Vletoria in April, 18Hti, and liow long did .von ivniain in Virttn-ia? A. — I left here ou tlie 4th of Ma.v. 1). — At that time were tliere an.v other Itritiuli BelnNtnera in |Mirt to your lerience had been in hunting? A. — Well, I think two of them had been hunting on the coast of t'aliornia that year, came here, left the vessel here, and went with nu'. Q. — The others? A. — The others was tlieir first year. 40 m mmf^r* <«IM|: I 10 39a II — Tliiit wiiM »Im' flint .v«'iir for nil of tlu'iii then? A. — That wiiH tht' fli-Ht .vtar for all of th«>iii. *i. — How many huiitd'H did yon hav»'? A. — I had flv»'. Q. — How nian.v boatM? A. — I had flvo r»'}{ular hunting hontH and a Hniall Htcni lioat. (i. — Did yoni' wtorn boat do an.v hnntinj{'' A. — n prettv fair sealing; weather. Q.— What day did you speak the "Silvia Handy?" A.— The 4th of August. Q. — Did vou do anv sealing after the 4th of August? A. —No. 40 SO 6<) 293 Q.— How mau^ wtilH dit] ^uii liav<> on tlit> 4tli of Aiigimt? A. — W'v liiid oil board 17(i() HoiiK'lhiiig — I tliiiik it waH «(). (j. — Wi'iv tlioM^ Ht-alif all caiiKlit in lU'liriiiK Hea? A. — No. Q. — IIow many wito caiiKlit onfHldo? A. — I ean't ttdl «'X- aftly. I think I may have had MH) on Koin^ into thv Hca; I don't think any nioiv than that. (i. — Ait you siiw you did not have more than tliat? A. — I don't tliink ho. What mukcH nR> rt'iiii'inlR-r that I had only 10 that many, I only had one duy'8 ^ood hunting on the f<»aHt Koing up, and 1 got 01) HealH. I didn't stay any time; went on to the Hen. ner? A.— The "Pathfinder." y. — With how many boats and how many hunters? A. — I had six boats and tiix hunters. Q. — Did you go to Itehring Hea? A. — I did. Q. — When did you enter the Sea? A. — I think I went In tliat year on the 28(h of June, if I remember rightly. I think it was about the 2Sth of June. Q. — For how long were you provisioned and what time did you exjtect to stay there? A. — I exi>ected to stay until Sep- tember, about the first of September. Q. — As a matter fo fact, how long did you stay in the Sea? A. — I left on the 17th of August. Q. — What was the occasion of your leaving on the 17th of August? A. — Well, I got a little further to the eastward than I thought I was. Q. — Where were you on the 17th? A. — I was off what they call liogusloff. (J. — How far were you off Ilogusloff Island, and in what direction? A. — I was to the eastward; might have been northeast of it. I was probublv 20 or 25 miles to the east- of it. Q. — What was the weather? A. — I hadn't lM>en there very long; only :i day or two. I think, if I remember rightly. I had been to the westward and drifted down to the eastward. Q.— What had been the weathei' for two or three days prior to that? A. — We had pretty fair weather; I don't remeni- (5o ber exactly. We had u westerly wind for a day or two and fog. Q.— What happened on the 17th • ' '.ugust? A.— When the weather cleared I was to the e. i of Ilogusloff, and I couldn't get back into the westward without standing to tlu» eastward. Had a westerly wind. I had to stand over to the north and eftst to get back to the westward. I didn't want to take «ny chances, because I <'xi)ected I might run across some of tlu- cutters. 40 50 ■nhh fMnt ;r'|- 204 M»»li. 1 : 1 Q.— liow fill- iH KoKiiHlutT fi-oiii L'liinak I'iimh? A. — It »]>• IM'III'M to Im' iy — X«'vi>r imIihI. Wlifii ,vimi foiiixl yoiii-Mflf in that |Mmi- lion, aii«l f<>ariiiK tliat ,vimi iiiittlit iikh-I tlu* cutti'i*, wliat «li llOlllf. ii. — Willioiit lliiiHiiiiiK your Hi'nMon? A. — Without AiilNh- inu III.V HtMIMOII. (). — How many waJH n' caught in tli<- lO (^I'a? A.— I thinii I had at)out 'J,2(t() in tin* K<>a; I ran'l nav to witliin 4(1 or TiO NcalH. I r<>ui«'nilM'r tlu* waMtn'H i-atrli, Itut I nin't ri'nu'UilMT wliat I luid in tlu- Kt-a *>xartlv; I thinit alHiiit 2.2(H>. (i. — Can you n\vv uh the wluth* wasonV catch? A. — 2.S17 wan th<> amount of hcuIh I IuhI. ii. — For tlu- wluth' HcuHon? A. — Yes. (i.— Wlun did vou ntart out? A.— Wlu'n did I l«'av<* Vic- toria? (i. — Y«'H? A. — I went out from Vit-toria licforc (^liriHt- 2o auiH tliat year. {}. — Did you come hacli to Victoria? A. — I cann' in Marcli. il. — IMd you land your bcuIh tlicr*-? A. — I landfd what I luid. (i. — And you went out apiin, when? A. — I came in ln'rc tlu' Kith of March, I think, and went out apiin aiNtut the '20th. I can't tell within a day, about the 2i|(|i. I think. (i. — \ow, y(»u have been sealing ••ontinuouKly Hince tliowe yearn, have you? A. — Yen, «'very year. 30 ii. — With white huntro|iorlion of Heals which are l*mt by hnnlers in Kenlin^. I mean, what Ih the |m-o- {tortion of KcalH they lone compared with thoHe they ffvt" The CommiHHioner on the part of the I'nited StateH: — What have we to do with that. Mr. Itodwell? Mr. nodw<'ir — My friendn have op«>n<'d that quention. The Commissioner on tlie pjirt of tli«' I'nited States: — This in your case now, not the defeiidant'H caRe. Mr. Hodwell: — I think I have the rijjlit to assunx* that when my friends open a line of struiKlit cross-examination — The Ctmimissioner «m the part of Her Maj«'sty: — Did thev not put that in as <|ualifyini; a general renuirk mad(> that you vol: 'd upon in the report of the case of the .\merican (Sovern ment. Mr. Rodwell : — The portion of th»> case that we put in, as I remember it, did not refer at all to that subject; it referred limply to t!ie trail that liie seals use in fiouxg into Hehrini; l^ea. and tlu- number that went ui thei". The C(»muiiHsioner on the pai-t of Iler Majesty: — The f,'round on which it was j»ut i:i was that it (|u;:!iti«>d. It may ;>r may not have (|ualified, but that was the reason which jus- titted its p)in}r in at the tinu*. Q. — Did yoH keep a book in 1887 showing the number of leals that you fjot from day t() day? A. — I did, yes. il — Where is that book'/ A. — I cannot find it. Q. — You have bM>ked for it for the purpose of {(ivin;; your L'videuce here? A. — I did, y«'8. 40 50 60 Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson. i). — Captain, are you still sailinu for sir. Munsie? -No, m iii|)lo,viiifiil? A,— I i|iilt IiIm llllllo.VIIM'Ilt lllMt III \HH\t. Q. — Wliiil Hliip wt'ri' .VOII wiilliiK on In !HH7? A. — I wiih oh Ihf -I'ntlitlnilci-.' (^— An«l .von wen- in \HHH1 A.— Ycm. (2.— And In IHf'S? A.— 'NN I wiim on tli rin'iTMa." jUHt (in till' i'oiihI. (j. — WitK tliiit II MnnHic lioiit? A. — No, hIii* wnnn'l owniNl li.v MimihIo. io (i. — Yon illil k«M'|i tin n^toiint, I Hti-. of .voiir willing vo.viiko in IHSi? A. — (Hi, I kopt nn iirninnt of it yin. (i.— You left it on that Hliip, diiln't .von? A.— I don't know. Q.— Yon did not liiinn It otf witli von? A.— I innv liovo; I think I did. (2.— \YiiH it In tin- Ion? A.— Thi' nitchi h of nkliiM? t^. — IHd .von ki'i'p nn iii-coimt of tiio si-nli* von took in Ihf lo^? A. — No, in ti hook, a Mmall hook. (i. — IHd .von I'Vi'i' hIiow tliat to aii.vhod.v? .V. — .\ii.vhodv 20 that wanti'd to moo It, loiild koo it; I don't know iih anvliod.v ivtT did. H. — IMd .von kiH'p tlio minit' foit of an an-ount in 1SH«? A. — Tlio winio. (i. — You don't know whoro tho othi-r hook Ih? A. — I do not. (i. — l>o .von ronionihor wlii-n tlw ItritlKli ('oiniiiiHHioni'rH wi'Pc hero to InvoHtij^att- tho Hoalin);? A. — At wliat tiini' wnw II? Q.— P'or ISSti? A.— In IHStS? 30 ii.—ln 1H!»2? A.— I don't know an I wm hvvv. What liiiif wi'io iIm'.v hero? Q. — Dr. (hHirRo LawHon wau 0110 of the Hritish (NminiiH- sioiicrH? A. — If .von can tell 1110 what tinit' In* wiih lioro. (i.— Woll, In 1H!»L'? A.— I wiiHii't Im'io. I wiih Kant, in till' ho^inninK **f '■'! ; I lanic lioro In tlu* HprinK of '!)(>, around the Horn. ii. — Do .von iviiu'iiilM'r of making; anv Htatciii«>nt to tiio roniinlMHioiici'H ahoiit tlio numh«>r of hoiiIh taken in ISSti and IHS7? A.— Xo, I don't roiui'inhi'r. 40 Q. — Now, lot Mil' iiHk .von ns to thi- "I'nthflndor," .voii wen- on lii'r all tlii' HfUMon of ISSt!, woivn't .von? A. — I wan Q. — Did .von not taki* !>.^i() ncaln in Itohriii); Hca and T.'ill on Hie loiiHt? A. — Xo. I did not ^ot 75(( on tlio cos'st. Q. — IIow inan.v did .von g«'t? A. — I don't know, hnt I did not havt> that inan.v. Q. — How nian.v did .von jji'l in Hi'liriiiK Si'a? A. — AYoll. 1 don't know; 1 know 1 didn't fii-t ovim- .'{(M) hdiIh on tho cotiHt that joar. Q. — How nwin.v did .von gi't in RohrinK Son? A. — I had l.TfiO odd altofrothor. Q. — Ko .vou not 1.4(MI and odd? A. — I must liavo got ahoiit 1.4(l(> in Hohinng Sen. Q. — Xow, ri'tiirnint; to tlicso hooks, what did .von do with the hook of 18Sfi? A.— That is what I would liko to know. Q. — You wi'iv on the "I'athfindor" the next .rear? A. — I was. Q. — Did y< u see it that .vtar on her? A. — Xo. ^ Q.— Xeither the 1S8« hook nor the 1H87? A.— No. 1 don't think I left them on; I think I hrought them ashore. Q. — Didn't von aeeonnt to Munsie for vonr senlinR oateh? A.— I did. Q. — Show him how yon eaut;ht them? A.— I didn't show him how I canglil them; I nhowed him how man}' I had. Q. — Didn't .von bIiow him the aoeonnt .von kept? A. — I did. Q.— That in what yon kept .vonr ai-eonnt for, to show .voiir owner? A.— I did.' i^O h'' 296 li !<1 t'i 10 20 30 40 M>l! 50 60 Q.— Didu't j'oii Icuvu tlio book with Muiisie? A.— 1 dou't (i)iiik HO. (i.— Why? A.— Tlie book didn't b(d»»ng to Munsic, it be longwl to me. Q.— Hut yon showed lilm tho actount? A.— I did, of <'imiw. In making np tlu' bnntci-H" awonnts lu' had in have th«> nnmbor of seals they canjil't. Q-— Wlnit time did yon leave Behrinf? Sea in 1887? A.— In 1887 tlie last day 1 hunted, I think, was the 15th day of AuRnst. Q-— What made yon leave? Afraid of being seized in ]887? A. — Yes, that was tltt> reason. Q.— Was tliat why yon left? A.— Yes. Q.— That was wTiy yon left in ISSC? A.— I spoke a vessel in 188(; which told me that seizures were nnide. I didn't kntiw that they were making any seizures in 1887. _I sup- posed they were. Q. — What made you aui)pose that? A. — Because they had l>een making si-iztireN the year before. Q. — IHd not Mr. Munsie tell yon before you went away that sp:in^ th. ri- would be no secures in 1887? A. — 1 don't re- niember. Q. — Did yon speak to any one to learn anylliing about seiz- ures in 1887? A. — I spoke to one nchooner in Behring 8e:i in 1887. Q.— What scliooner was that? A.— The "Mary Taylor," 1 believe. Q. — l>id tliey lell you anything about seizures or warnings in Beliring Sea? A. — No. Q. — The only reason you left in 1887 was l>ecause of the seizures of 18S(!? Is tiiat so? A. — The reason I left was because I suitposed they wotild b< seizing schooners the samt; as the year before. Q. — What did you go there for? A. — I went to get seals. Q. — And without liaving heard of any seizures in 1887, or any warnings, you came iiome? A. — I came home. Q. — Having gone there to get seals you left early in August, on the luth of August, b.eause you were afraid you wonld be seized? A. — If I had been where I thought I was, fur- ther to the westward, I wouldn't have come home so soon. That was the reason. I was a little further to the eastward than I thought 1 was, when the weather cleared. Q. — Is it not a matter of fact that you came home because the weal her was rough? A. — No, no. Q. — And that you could not catch any ^oi\\H because of northwesters? A. — We generally get good weather there In August. Q. — What kind of weather were yon getting wlii-n you left? A. — The weatluT wasn't so very bad, but it wasn't fit sealing weather; hadn't l)een for a day or two. Q. — How long had it be<'n unfit sealing wc'ather? A. — May have been a day or two. Q. — Did it get any lu'ttrr while you were in the Sea? A. — It didn't take me very long to get out. I was out the next day, because I was chwe to the pass. Q. — And you want the Commissioners to understand, do you, that you left in August, August IRth, 1887? A.— That was the last day I hunted, llie inth of August. Q.— When did you leave? A.— I left on the 17th. (J. — And you want the ('ommissioners to understand that you left on the 17th for fear of being seized? A. — Yes. Q. — And the only i-i>ason you had for that was because there were seizures in 18S(>? A. — Yes, and, as I toTd yon. I was a little further to the eastward of this volcano, and if I had been to tin* westward of the v<»hano I wouldn't haTC come out for two or three weeks. lo 20 30 40 50 60 297 Q. — You won,' not over to the eastward of the volcano for fear of revenue cuttei-s, were you? A. — No, but I was more in tlie track of curters there. Q. — And you had not heard a word of there being a cutter in tlie Sea in 1887? A.— No, I hadn't heard. Q. — If the seuling was k<>o«1 on the 17tli, why didn't you run out of that coursi' by the volcano and pet out of tlie traclt of tlie cutters? A. — I had to stand to the eastward to set back to the westward. Q. — A northwesterly wind? A. — It might have been a little northwesterly. Q. — A little north of west, was it not? A. — I don't know; I can't tell you exactly. Q. — Do you know where your log is for 1S87? A. — I didn't keep any log; the nmte couldn't write, and I didn't keep any. Q. — Kept nothing but the sealing account? A. — Just the Healing account. Q. — And how large a book did you keep that on? A. — A hook about the size of this one I have got in my pocket. (In- tlicating.) Q. — You came around the Horn in the "Pathfluder," and there was but one ship for sale that year in the port," was there? A. — That is all I can remember that was for sale. (i. — Were yo«i sent to Nova Hcotia to buy the "Pathflnd- • r"? A. — No, I was in Nova Scotia when Mr. Munsie came to buy it. Q. — Did you help buy it? A. — No, I had nothing to do with buying it. Q. — Do you know what she cost? A. — I do not. I don't know what Mr. Munsie paid for it. Q. — You brought her around; Munsie didn't come with you? A.— I did. Q. — What did it cost to bring her around? Well, I don't know what the bills were, I didn't see tlie bills. Q. — After bringing the "Pathfinder" around, did you go up the coast at all? A. — Up this coast. Q.— Yes? A.— Yes. Q. — Take any supplies up there? A. — You mean did I go in for supplies. Q. — No. Did you take any up there and land any? Do you know where Cliatelet is? A. — New Chatelet is on the west coast of Vancouver Island here. Q. — Did you ever take any su])plies there for Mr. Munsie? A. — No. I never did. Q. — Do you know wliat vessels Munsie owned and controll- ed in 1S8(>? A. — Well, I don't know. I heard he owned the "I'arolena." (i.— And the "Pathfinder"? A.— And the "Pathflndi r." Q. — And so far as the "Pathfinder" was conc«>rncd, in 18S(; von took no supplies and landed tliem at Oliateh't? A. — No, I wasn't on the coast at all. ii. — Did you bring around salt for tnillast from Nova Sco- tia? A.— (hi the "Pathfinder"? g.— Yes? A.— No. (■l- — Wliat was your ballast? A. — We had rock — stone; I d«in't think we had any salt in. Q. — What kind of guns did you liave on the "Pathfinder"? •\. — I tliink we had the (Ireener gun; I am not certain; an Kii^iiHli gun. (i.— How many? A. — We had five puns; we may have liad i)ne Hjiare gun; we liad six shot guns, I think, on board, and some ri(i(>s. I don't know liow many. «0, vok. {}. — And what tiin*' did yon Umvc for tin- S«'ii in ISSfi? A.— 1 left iM'it' tlu' 4tli day of Ma.v. Q. — Wli.v are yon ho jiositive about that date? A. — Well, I ronienibtT distinctly it was the 4th of May I left here. Q. — How do you fix it? A. — Well, I eanie in here the 17th day of April; I remember that distinctly. Q. — And took supplies on board? A. — After doing stmie repairs for the vessel, took on supplies, jfot ready and startinl. 10 Q- — I>id .v«u take your guns (m after arriving here in May? A. — Yes, everything was taken on here. Q. — How many guns did y«)u take on? A. — 1 have told you already; six shot guns. Q. — Did you take :iny off and deliver to the "Oarolena"? A. — \o, I never saw the "Carolena" at all; I have never seen that vessel. Q. — Delivered no suppli«'s to tlie "Carolena"? A. — No. Q. — Do you know anything about what those shot guns were wortli? A. — No, I don't know what they were worth. 20 Q. — You never knew of any delivery of any guns, rifles and phot from the "Pathfinder" to the "Carolena," did von? A. —No. Q. — Were you on board of her from the time she canu' around the Horn from Nova Weotia as hei' nmster? A. — Yes. Q. — All the while as her master? A. — Yes, until she camo back here from Behring Sea. Re-direct examination. 30 Q. — You knew from the year 1X8(! what the track of the "evenuo cutter was pretty well? A. — I knew about where they had seized those vtssels a year before. Q. — And that was, generally? A. — The track between Ounalaska and St. George's Island. Q. — How far to the east of where you were? A. — Well. I could tell probably by overhauling tliis chart; I wouldn't be to the westward of Ounalaska over «!(> mil»s, I don't think, perhaps not tluit. Q. — Generally sp(>aking, how far from the track between 4° Ounalaska and St. George's Island? A. — I wasn't more than 8n or 40 miles 10 the westward of that track. Q. — And with the wind as blowing you would have had to make a long tack to the eastward to get around Bogusloff? A. — I would. Re-cross-examination: 50 Q. — I would like to ask you if you know the price of these guns. A. — I really don't. Mr. Muusie lu'ver told me. 1 know what they are now. The Commissioner on the jmrt yf the United States: — Mr. Hodwell, will vou please tell m«' how luanv boats he says he had? Witness: — I had live sealifig bonis and a small stern boat. Q. — In 1SS7? A.— In 1SH7 six regular hunting boats and no stern boat. 60 Emile Ramlase was called ;is a witness on the part of Great Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Air. Biqne; Q. — Where do you reside now? A. — Victoria. Q.— Were you in Behring Sea in ISSfi? A.— I was. Q.— On wliat vessel? A.— "ThereHsi." Uf 10 20 30 40 50 60 299 Q. — lu what enpucily? A. — Itoat rower. Q. — Who was ilui master of tlie vessel? A. — White. Q. — Where is lie to be found now, do you know? A. — I don't know where he is. (J. — He is not in Victoria? A, — He is not in Victoria. (}. — And has not be(?u for several years? A. — Not that I know of. ii. — And who was the mate? A. — I forget his name. t have not seen him since. Q. — How many boats had yoii? A. — We had five boats and a stern boat. Q. — A white or an Indian crew? A. — Wliite crew. Q. — When did yon commence sealing in Behring Sea in 1886? A. — As near as I can remember, I believe about the 2Mith of June is about the first day we got anv seals to speak of. Q. — And how long did you remain in the Sea sealing? A. —If I renu'rber right, we left on the 25th of August. g.— Why did yon leave on the 2.^th of August? A. — I don't know. I suppose that was the end of the trip. i}. — Do you remember liow many seals were caught in Beh- ring Sea by your crew in that year? A. — I believe 2,100 al)out; perhaps a few more or less. I wouldn't be certain; it is over 2,(MtO any how. Q.— In Behring Sea? A.— In Behring Sea; yes, sir. Q. — You did not keep any book? A. — I did not. Q. — You did not keep any record of the catch? A. — Not at all. Q.— You say you remained until tlie 25th of August? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Had you good sealing until tlie 25th? A.— What I should call good sealing. Q._l)o you know how many days you were out in Aiigust? A. — I do not remember. Q.— Were you oiit? A.— Oh, yes; we were out, Q.— Almost <>very day? A".— No, I shouldn't say every day; hardly possible to be out every day. Q.— Well, how nuiny days in tlie week on the average? A.— It would be hard for me to state. I know we didn't have any real bad weather for the year; it was wlmt I should call a good year. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing: Q.— Mr. Ranilase. liave you been sealing any other years besides 1880? \. — I have been sealing «'ver since. ().— What vessel w»'re you out in in 1887? A.— I was iti the San Jose. Q. — How many seals did you get in tlie San Jose? A. — We got. I beli«>ve, !)00. uj) to the time we were seized. Q. — In the Sea? A. — In the Sea up to the time we were seized. Q.— And in 1S,S8? A.— In 1888 I was in Behring Sea. Q.— What Vi'Nsel? A.-In the "Alic«' Seymour." The rommissloner on the part of the Ignited States: — Do you want to open 1888 now? Mr. Lansing: — I was simply testing his memory, that is all. Tlic Conimissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Not witli a view' of opening the year? Mr. Lansing:— Not at all. Q. — In 1888 how many seals did you take in the Sea? A. — I think it was about 7ttO; probably a few over or a few under, ! wouldn't be certain. ! i 'J'fMr-.f"'fi>\''^' "• UllMi 20 30 300 Q. — And in 1889 what vcshpI were you on? A. — On the "Seymour." Q. — How nuuiy that year did you take? A. — 1 tliinlv some- thing over 1,200. Q. — Cannot you fix it a little more aeeurately? A. — I cannot. I don't lieep no boolcs, but I Icnow pretty near; it was about 1,200 in liehring Sea. Q.— How can you fix it so cU>arly in 188G? A.— Well, I remember; I know it was over 2,000. 10 Q. — You were not paid on any lay? A — Yes, 1 was. Q. — As to the whole catcli? A. — Y«'s, sir. Q. — What was your lay? A. — My lay was a 04th of ev«>ry skin that came aboai-d. Q. — Do you recollect the we.ather in July and August of 1886? A. — Yes, I remember it to a certain extent. Q. — Did you have very fair weather in July? A. — I should call it fine weather, yes. Q. — And fair weather in August? A. — I should call it fair weather in August. Q. — Was it as fair weather in August as it was in July? A. — I hardly think so. Q. — It never is as fair in August as it is in July, is it? A. — I don't know. 1 have seen very good weather in August since. Q. — Was it as fair weather in August as in July? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — You asked him if it ever was as fair in August as it was in July? Q. — Is it ever as fair in August as it is in July in the Sea? A. — Possibly it is. I have seen very good weather in Au- gust. Q. — Have you seen as good weather in August as in July, as many good sealing davs? A. — Well, I wouldn't be cer- tain. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — You mean the average, do you, Mr. Lansing? Mr. Lansing: — The average. Witness: — I wouldn't be certain of that. I never counted it up, or anything like it. (J. — But yon say that in 188(1 tlie weather was not as good in August? A. — I don't believe it was. I think we had better weather in July. Q. — You used toxica ve the Sea between the 20th and the 25th of August, did you, in those years? A. — That year we left the 25tli, I am almost sure we did. Q. — When did you stop sealing in August? A. — What year? Q. — In 1880? A. — Well, as near as 1 can remember a few days before that, probably a couple of days. Q. — Then you left on account of what? A. — The vessel wasn't fitted out for a long cruise; she wasn't very well pro- visioned going home. Q. — Did you have any bad weather? A.— (Joing home? Q. — No. A. — Not what I should call bad weathei*. Q. — How many days in August did you seal? A. — I could not tell. I didn't keep no account. Q._Well, you coudn't tell as to July? A.— No, I couldn't tell as to July either. Q. — But the weather wasn't as good in August as it was in Julv? A. — Well, I don't know. I am not certain of that. 40 50 60 Re-direct examination: Q. — You were paid by the skin, I believe? on n lay. A. — I was paid 30I 10 Q.— WuH it oil the (juanfity of skins lalteu? A. — Yes. Mr. Ditkinsou: — Ono skin every 04 is a 04tb lay, I under- Ktand? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you were interested, therefore, in keeping a re- ( ord of tlie quantity of seals that had been taken? A. — Of course it was to my int(?rest. Q. — You were asked as to your being in IJehring Sea in 1SS7, and you said tliat you were in the San Jose? A. — Jn the San Jose. Q. — How many boats had you on the San Jose? A. — Four iind a small stern boat. Q. — There is a question I should have asked on the direct examination: where did you seal in ISSfi, in what part of Mt'iiring Sea? A. — WM, I couldn't say for sure. Q. — Looking at th-i map, would you be able to show the Itlace where you sealed? A. — The only thing I can remem- Ix'r about it is Ihat I saw Bogusloff on several occasions. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — The question is whether you can, by looking at the map, point out where you were sealing. Mr. Bodwell: — Can you see on the map about where you were? A. — I tould not. I seen I'.ogusloflf on several occa- sions. Q. — Then you were not far from this island? A. — I saw it on several occasions. Q. — At about what distance wer< you from the island? A. 3° —Oh, probably 40 miles — 30 miles. 20 40 (lustave Hansen was called as a witness on the part of (Jreat Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Bodwell: ii. — Your name is Gustave Hansen? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — You are a master mariner? A. — Yes, sir. (.]. — Have you been sealing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How long? A. — Been sealing since 1880. Q. — Were you in Behring Sea in the year 1S86? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On a sealing voyage? A. — Yes, sir. (l. — On what vessel? A. — The schooner "Adele." Q. — As master? A. — Yes, sir. ^i— Where did you sail from? A. — In 1S8G I sailed from N'ictoria. Q.— What was the "Adele," a British vessel? A.— A Ger- man. Q. — Wliat number of boats and hunters had you? A. — In ISHfi I had three boats. (i.— What kind of hunters? A.— White men. ut if, I could. Q — \Vere the Indians frightened or not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Refused to stay? A. — Yes, sir. i}. — How mauy seals did vou have? A. — I had a little over 12(»0. Q. — Did vou get any outside of the Sea that year? A. — Yes. Q. — How many? A. — I d<«i't remember. rross-examination by Mr. Warren. Q.— How many boats did vou have in 1880? A.— In '80 we had three boats. Q. — Any stern boat? A. — No, only three boats, three pro- per boats, hunting boats. Q. — And how many men in a boat hunting? A. — Three men in a boat. Q. — You say you took how many seals in Behring Sea that year? A.— Well, I can't exactly tell; I think I had 104 on the coast, and I got the rest in Behring Sea. I had 1140 for the season. (5o (i. — Did you state that you thought you got 000 in Behring Sea? A. — Yes, air, a little «»ver 000; I don't remember be- cause the log was lost. Q. — Did you ever make a statement to the British ('ommis- sloners that you caught 005 during the whole of that year? A. — No, sir. Q. — You had the same boat here in 1887 with six canoes? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — How many Indians in a caii«»e? A. — Two men in each canoe. 50 lO 303 Q — And ouo boat bimiduM? A. — Vi'h. (j. — Did you hunt in tliut buat? A. — Yoh, I bunted in tbut boat. (i. — Wvro you out often? A. — Yes, quite. Q. — You not liow nmnv Hkins that year? A. — Altogether I had i:n2. (i. — Did you ever inalte a statement to the liritinh ('omniis- siouers tluit vou got (iJU) in Behring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q.— And 720 on tlie coast? A.— No, sir. Q. — Is that a pntper division of your catch? A. — No, sir, I never said no sueh tiling. ti. — I asked von if that was a projier division of the catch? A.— In 1HS(>? Q.— 1SS7? In 1H87 got i:U2 wals, 720 on the coast, and (i:{0 in the Sea. Is that a proper divlKion of tlie catch? A. — No. I got most in Ilehring Sea, only a fev/ on the West Coast. The Commissioners then rose. »;,, ;;3'i^ ii ! Oommissioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, Between Great Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 9, 1896. At 10:.'{0 a.m. the Commissioners took their scats. 30 Mr. Modwell: — I wish to present to the Commissioners an alKstract sliowing the catch of seals in August, 188G, by the schooner "Mary Ellen." It is as follows: Abstract showing the catch of seals in August, 188G, by schooner "Mary Ellen."' Jacobsen 220 De Fries I75 .Julian 231 iQ Lorenzo 17!» Dillon 15a Stern boat 47 lOOS tiaffed from the schooner 1 100(i Less three taken by Jacobsen outside of Sea. .. 'i 304 Tlu' first \h tlie ivcord of the proci't'diiigH iu the vane of the I'nited States vs. JitiueH Ogllvie, master of the "Caroh-na." This is a certified copy. Document received and marlvcd Exhibit 19 O. B., Claim No. 1. Mr. Dicliinson: — We reserve our objection to any claims for damages on belialf of James Ogilvio. Do your Honours wish to hear the argument on timt point now? The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Would you kindly state the ground? Mr. Dickinson: — The ground of objection is that Ogilvie has departed this life and whate\er claim he would have at law would die with him. The st>cond objection is that it al- ready appears that ho was convicted of a technical violation of the United States law by .. court of general jurisdiction. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — The 20 Commissioners think that their decision on this question had better be reserved until final argument. 10 Mr. Dickinson: fore conviction. -I think in the case of Ogilvie, he died be- 30 40 SO 60 Mr. Peters: — I think they estreated his bail when he was dead. This exhibit 19 of course recjuires to be printed. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — It will be printed of course. Mr. Peters: — There are two facts which I wish recorded in the notes. The first is that when the information was filed against him he was held on ball to api)ear, and the second is that he did appear by counsel and that counsel was Mr. Clark. I wish to put in a similar record in the case of the United States vs. James lilake. The remark is also applicable to that, that the party a}>peared by counsel and that counsel was air. Clark. Document received and marked Exhibit No. 20, G. B. Claim No. 1. Mr. Dickinson: — The same objection will be raised as to Blake, your Honours, he having departed this life. Mr. Peters: — I wish to put in as exhibits the following charts. They are in the ordinary copy of the United States reprint, but not separate from the book. This is the only copy I have of them in this form. I may say that tliese are all authentic documents issued by the .Ignited States. Sir Charles Tapper: — These are the actual documents pre- sented by the United States Government to the British Gov- ernment. Mr. Peters: — 1 wish to jiut in to be fih'd the following: "The Cruises of United States Vessels, July 15th, August 15th, 1S91." Document received and marked Exhibit 21, G. B. Claim No. 1. Mr. Peters: — I also wish to put in Chart No. 6, which is the sealing chart. Document received and marked Exhibit 22, G. B. Claim No. 1. Mr. Peters: — I also wish to put in a~chart which is in the American reprint, Vol. 2, between pages 574 and 575. This 305 Ih alHu iHHUfd by the Uiiitt-tl Ktat«>K iuithuriti«*H and purports to b»' "The CruiHe of the Itritinh Hchoouer Ada, from Victo- ria, in Uehring Sea. Season of 1S«7. Talien from tlie \og." Tliere is ajtpended to this cliart the following certificate: "I certify tlmt tliis map was prepared at tlie Vuited States Coast and 'M) and ti'M. This is in the case of the T^nited States at Paris, and it is hegdi'd "Cruise of the United States Scliooncr "Annie," from San Francisco, in Hehring Sea, Sea- son of 1S87." It is certified as follows: "I certify that this map was pn'pared at the United States ''oast and (leodetic Survey Office, and is correct according to '^'^ (lie latest authorities. And tiiat the positions of the scho«m- cr Annie are plotted from the latitude and longitude as given in the log (seized and now in the possesion of the Ignited States) at the end of the sea day. "The number of seals taken daily is also cojded from the said log." "(Signed) T. C. MENDENHALL. "Superintendent." 20 ijp:!'''""' lO 306 Mr. IV'ttTH: — TIh'I'i' \h 1m»(1i tlu' I'ariH iMi{;iii|j; on tlim v«>luiii<' nud also tlic paKiuK of the ri'print. I)(»ounient offered in evidence and numbered Exhibit 24, O. B. Claim No. Mr. Peters: — Have yoa the log of tlie Annie? Mr. LanHing: — We believe we have. Mr. Peters: — Have yon any objection to produce it later on? Mr. Lansing: — Not at all. Mr. Peters: — 1 refer to another clinrt, which will be found in Vol. 2, United Htates Reju-int, b«>twei'n imgeH 524 and r»2r). It is headed "(.'ruise »»f the United States schooner "Ellen," from San PranciHeo. in Kehrin;; Sea, season of 1SS7." And it contains the foll«)wing certificate: "I certify tlmt this nuiji was itrejiared at the T'nited States 20 Coast and (^Jeodctic Survey OlHce, and is correct according to the latest autliorities. And that tlie ]iositions of the schooner "Ellen" are plotted from the latitude and longitudt* as given in her log (seized and now in possession of the Unit- ed States) at the end of the sen day. "The number of seails taken daily is also copied from said log. (Signed) "T. C. MENDENnALL, "Superintendent." 30 Mr. Peters: — Have you the original log of the "Ellen?" Mr. Lansing'— We have. Mr. Peters: — Will you produce it? Mr. Lansing:— We will. Document otTered in evidence and numbered Exiiibit 25, CJ. n. Claim No. 1. 40 Mi'd SO Alexander Ueppen was called as a witness on behalf of Great Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Beique: Q. — Where do you reside, Mr. Kejipen? A. — In Victoria. CJ. — Were you sealing in 188(»? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On what scho4)ner? A. — The schooner "Grace." ii. — In what rajtacity? A. — I was mate. Q. — Wlio was the master of the schooner? A. — Captain Jordan. i}. — Do you know wlieve Captain Jordan is to be found now? A. — Xo, I do not at the present time. Q. — How long is ir since you have seen him? A. — It is three years now since I saw liini. Q. — He d»M'8 not reside in tins province as fas as you know? 60 A.— Xo, sir. Q. — Did you seal in Behring Sea during 1S8()? A. — Yes, sir. Q.Did you seal on board that schooner, tlie "Grace?" A. — Y«'s, sir. Q. — What was hei- crew? A. — Her crew weri> Indians. Q. — How many? \. — Her crew consisted of 22 Indians. Q. — How ma ay canoes or boats? A. — Eleven canoes and one boat. 307 ;|»M! A.— No, t^.— That wiiH <1k' nt«'rii bout? A. — Ves, nir. (2. — Tli«' Htt'rn boat wa« for your uhc, I HiipitoHo? not for mint'; t uovor wt'ut out. i.1 — Who UHotl the Htorn bout? A. — The ongini'vr. t^. — Was it RiMU'rally iu hho by the engineer? A. — No, ou?y oct-iiHionally. (2. — When (lith of .Inly. 10 ii. — And wlu'U did you leave the Itehriug Hea? A.— We left on the 14th or jrjth of AuguHt. Q. — Why did yoti leave on the 14th or 15th of August? A. — Well, the IndiauH \vanti>d to go home. (J. — Did they object to remaining any longer? A. — Yen, I hey were afraid, T think. They objected to staying any longer. (i. — They were not used to going to nehring Sea, I sujtpose? .\. — No, sir. (J. — l»id you keep any record of the daily catch in Itehriug 20 Sea for that year? A. — Yes. I had a memorandum book which I kej)t myself, but the captain keei)a the log. Q. — Have you that menioranduni book? A. — No, I lost that three years ago. Q. — How did you lose it? A. — I was wrecked on the west coast. Q. — Did the captain keep in his log the daily catch, do you remember? A. — I cannot tell. Q. — From memory can you say the number of seals that were taken during the jM-riod that you have mentioned? A. 30 — Some of the largest catches I can v«'ry well remember. Q. — What were they? .\. — The largest catch we had that I can remember was 225. Q. — On the one day? A. — On the one day. Q. — Do you reniemher if that was in July or August? A. — It was tlu> beginning of August, I think. Q. — Do you remember what was the total catch made dur- ing the period you have mentioned in the Behring Sea? A. —We had 1,700 in the Tiehring Sea. (}. — Was that 1700 exactly? A. — I cannot remember the "^ total l)ut th«'re may have been a few more or less. Q. — Then you mean to say that it was about 1700 that were taken in Hehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. i}. — Do you remember liow many days the engineer went out with the stern boat? A. — No. sir. {}. — Well, abont how manv? A. — I cannot remember that. (i. — Would you be able to say iu what jmsitiou your vessel nailed during the months of .luly .ind .\ugust of the year -Q 1SS(!? A. — So far as I can nMucmber, the captain showed itie tile chart and we were between tlie PribylolT Islands and Ounalaska. (J. — If you were shown a chart as to that would you be able to indicate a])pro\imately on the chart where you kept? A. — Oh, yes, ]U'<>tty near it. (i. — Point out on the chart where you were in the moutli of Julv' A. — I was about 55 north latitude and 1(!0 and 107 west longitude. U- — Yon were tliere in July? A. — Yes. flo (-i. — In August did you renmin on the same ground? A. — At the beginning of August w«' remained on the sauie ground and then w«> went further east. Q. — How much further east did you go? A. — About 20 or oO miles — we did not go very far. Q. — Why did you go further east? A. — I do not know — it was the cajttain's opinion. Q. — Did you hear of any seizure then? .\. — Yes, we spoke the "Anna Heck" in the Iteginniiiii; of August and they lold us tlnxt some schooners were seized. I I i 'I' '0 I I'll' lb ! ■m rii 3o8 mI'I?. , I i (j. — l>o ,vou rfUK'iulK-r iippruxiiimtcly wlitit dii.v it wiim In Aii^iiHt tliat .vou Hpoki- tlif "Anna H«'»'k"? A. — 1 I'annot lianll.v tt'll the dat«>H. Q. — Wt'll, about wlu-n? A. — It wan nb(>n tlu> iHt and tli< lOth, I think. 9 Q.— WtTc yon Healing in 18Sr>? A.— No, sir. y.— WiTi' you Ht'iiling in \HHT! A — Y»'8. Q.— WliHt wiiH .vonr roast cjih-h in ISHJi? A.— In 1880 I waH in (lie "Ihac*"." Wo liad 1J(M) Ml(inH. Q.— Altogftlui for the HeHBon? A.— No, in tlie Itelirins Hea. Q— What did you have on the coast? A.— »to had. 1 tliinic, about 000. Q. — Now, Mr. Ueiipen, are you not niiMtaken about tliat? 10 Did you not liave 1,1(H» in the Hea and 000 on tlie -jant? Whs it not 1,70(» altoKetlier? A.— I eannot renienibei that very well. I l;now it was 1,7(H) Hkins altogether. y.— AMoRether? A.— Alt<.,? A. — No, I cannot say that. Q.— Did you make the following statement, which is to be found in Volume 8 of the American Reprint, page 050, sec- tion 0, of the declaration of August R«'ppen? The Commissioner on th'> part of the United Statis: — What 50 document is that? Mr. Lansing: — It is an affidavit; his own aflBdavit. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the United States: — In iclation to another claim? Sfr. Lansing: — It is in relation to the qtiestion I have asked liim as to the number of seals seen by him in 1886 and 1802. To Witness: — Did you subscribe to that declaration? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did you make tlie following statement in tliat decla- ration: "I saw more seals in 1892 than I saw in any previous year, and I am informed by my hunters to the st-'ue etT«'ct." Did you make that statement? A. — Yes. Q. — Is that statement true? A. — Yes. In fact I saw a good many seals in 1896 the same way. Q. — Is that statement there true? A. — Y'es, sir, that is true. Go '^mmi HI i ; :m 3(0 ii; HtMi.'i ;i lO 20 30 40 50 Q.— Yo>i saw more in iH{)2 tliau you did iu 188G? A.— Yl's. Q- — Then wliat do .vou mean by saying tliat you could not state „liether you saw more iu 1S<(2 than in l.SH«? A.— It is so many years ago tluit I do not remember it very right. ti. — How many did you eateli in 181M!? A. — We got over 700. Q. — And you saw mor«> tlian you did in l.S8(i? A. — W'a got a good many seals in 188(!. Q. — Did you see more then than you did in 188G? A.No, I cannot say that. Q. — Your recollection as to 18Sr> is not very good, Mr. Reppen? A. — It is many years ago. (i. — And you don't remember much about it? A. — I can remember a good many things, but a good many things I cannot. y. — How do you renu'Uiber the number of "lowering days" that year? A. — I never said just correctly that I could re- member then) exactly, whether there would be some days more or some (lays less. Q. — How nuin,\ lowering days did you say you had? A. — Some ;{t) odd lowering days. y. — You were in tlicre about ',iH days and of these you had about thirty lowei-ing \1ays? A. — I was in from the 4th of July to the ir>tli of August. (i. — That is about ."JS da.'s. and were about thirty of these lowering da\s? A. — TiuM-e were some days we only lowered for half 'I day. (i.--Is it not a fact that before you came out it was blow- ing pretty hiird. and that that was the reason the Indians wanted to get away? A. — Yes, the weather commenced to be a little bad. (i. — Are not tlie Indians very superstitious? A. — Yes, they are as a general rule. ii. — And if tlu'V want to come away do the capt.-.ius have to come? A. — Ves, to humor them. It is no use to go against them. Q. — Was it not a fact that the season was practically end- ed on the 15*11 August of that year? A. — If we had white nu'U we (duld have stayed longer. Q. — Hud your captain ever be^n in the Sea before? A. — Xo, sir. Q. — Did that nuike any dirt'.'rence as to your remaining longer in the sea that year? A. — I do not think it. (i. — Are there any particular hunting grminds in the Sea? A. — No, sir, 1 do not think it; wherever you lind the seals you stay. (}. — Sometimes you go to the west of the Islands? A. — Yes, si I". ii. — And sonu'times to the north of the Islands? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And sometimes to the east of llu' IMibylotT Islands? .\. — Yes. sir. * Q. — And sometimes to the south? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Are the seals thickt r in one ipiarter th;in in another? - ♦.— \o. ii. — It just hajijtens that you run across a niimb'"- of seals and stav theie for awhile? A. 1 es. 60 Q. — And then vou go 00 or 70 miles In another direction? A.— Yes. (■i. — And then "li<' too"' and send out your camM's? A. — 1 es, sir. 1 es, sir. (■i. — And yon stay there a day? A Q. — .\nd if the seals are thick you stay there two days? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .And sometimes more? ,V. — Sometimes more. 3>i Q. — And then ,v<)u pick nj) .voiir ciinocH ainl iiiovo off 00 or 100 niilcH in iinollu'r dirt'Hion? A. — Ych. Q. — ('ov*'rin>j tlic wliolt' tn'n about (lie islands? A. — Yfs, sir. Q. — North, south, euHt and west of the seal islands? A. — Yes. ().— Am I lifjlit in that? A.— Yos. Q. — While you were in the sea were there many calm days? A. — Not very many. 10 Q- — Does steam lielp a vessel in the sea? A. — No, we never use the steam. Q. — Never UB«'d it at all? A. — Only to ro for water. Q. — How do you remember that catch of 2;{5 seals? A. — I remember it on account of it beiii^ an unusually lar}j;e catch. Q. — Did you ever hear of a day's catch as bip as that by any other vc'ssel? A. — Yes, sir, I have been in other vessels the same way. Q. — And 3'ou made one bif? catch? A. — Y'es. (i- — And you can remember all the large catches? A. — 20 Yi's. sir. Q. — These are the only ones you can remember. A. — Yes. Q. — Yon cannot remember the poor days. A. — Not except by the number of how many se.als we had. Q. — \Yhat is the next largest catch vou made in the year 188(;? A.— AYe had 150. (J. — \Yhen was that? A. — It was during the time we we"e in Hehring Sea. Q. — What time of the month? A. — I should judge it was in Julv. We had several good catches. 30 (J.— What time in July? A.— The latter end of July. (i. — Was not this catch of 2:$r> in July also? A. — It may have been in the latter end of July, but I cannot tell you. Q.— Anywhere from the 20th to the liOtli of July? A.— Yes. anywhere around there, I think, (i. — Is it not a fact that the latter part of Julv was a good deal better than the Ist of August that year? A. — Yes, we had good catches. (i.— Was not there a good deal of bad weather in the first of .Vugust? A. — Not on the first. Q. — Take the first ten days in August, and did you not have a good deal of bad weather? A. — If I remember ariglit after the t"nth we had bad weather. Q — You have heard the testimony of some of these other witnesses as to the weather during the first of August? A. —Yes. Q. — Did not that refresh yonr memory that dnrinc; the first liart of August you had bad weather? A. — Y'es, we had bad weather, but it did not last long. Q. — Did vou have worse we«',t!«er th.an vou did in Julv. A. —Yes. Q. — Did your sealing end about the tenth di'.v of August? A. --About that, I think. Q. — You went out of the sea on tlie ir>th of August? A. -Yes. Q. — You stated tliat yon were tliere several days waiting lor good weather, did you n(»t? A. — Yes. Q. — .\nd tile good weather did not come? A. — No. Q. — So y )u w«nt out of the Sea? A. — Yes. r,o Q- — D was the bad weather that was the chief reason why yon left tlir Sea? A.— Yes. 40 so '■< •: I; .il>!i !■ :^mm , h i\ Re-dire( • exuniiiialion by Mr. Meitiue: Q — Wiii you refer fo the declaration that was shown to .you as to the 'oniparative number of seals that yon saw dur- ing the year 1 ^!ti.' and previoiis years, and say if your decla- ration referred to Itehring Sea or if it referred to the sealing 1 general? I will read the d«'claration to vou: •ftf^'-mww^mm lO 20 30 I 40 Ml'd 50 60 DECLARATION OF AUGUST REPPEN. "Dominiuii of Canada, Province of British Columbia, City of Victoria. "I, August Roppen, of the City of \'ictoria, in the Province of Uritish Columbia, muster mariner, do solemnly declare as follows: "1. That I have been captain or mate on schooners engaged in the sealing business for the past nine years. "2. I have been engaged on the steam schooner "Grace" and the schooners "Kate," "Mary Taylor," "Viva," "Path- finder" — now called the "Pioneer" — and this year 1 was on the "Fawn." ";{. While I was engaged as mate on the different schoon- ers I was also engaged a jtortion of the time in seal hunting. "4. During the entire time in which I have been seal hunt- ing I have not lost more than three seals by sinking. "5. I notice no difference in the seals now and nine years ago, with the exception that they are wilder. "(i. I saw more seals during the^year 18!>2 than I ever saw on any preveious y<.'ar, and I am informed by my hunters to the same effect. "T.When a seal is wounded the chunces are ten to one that it is secured by the hunters. "8. If a seal is wounded it is clj.isec. "luii' it is secured. I have chased a seal for half an iious tfiv ounded it before I secured it. "J). I have seen seals travelliiig ii' c-hools, and at such limes they are more diflicult to secure. "10. The males and females travel togetlier. "I. I have o{»ened seals and know that they eat flsh, but they also eat shrimps and insects. "12. I have never been on the Russian side of Behring Sea. "i;{. 1 have seen seals cohabiting in the water; they do this in the same manner that cats and dogs do on land. "14. I have been hunting with Indians; in calm weather they prefer the spear, but as a rule they now prefer the gun for sealing. "IE). Quite a number of barren females are killed on the coast. "10. Very few old bulls are taken. "17. Tlie only ]»rotection necessary for the ueals in my opinion is to protect Mu'in on the islands. "And I make this sr.'emn declaration conscie)uioii.>f!y be- lieving the same to be true, and by virtue of "''. te >( * Res pecting Extrajudicial Oaths" "(Signed.) AUOrS-' ' V.f'A'^'Y^. Q. — That does not refer to Behring Sea 'n partun^ iv do'o it? A. — No, sir. Q.— Did you in 1SM(! go all around the Prybiloff Islai.ds? A. — I think 1 remember \v<' (mce sailed around the islands. Q. — But you don't remember in what year it was? A. No. (J. — Between the Kith and 15th of August do you remem- ber if you sealed at all? A. — I cannot remember that. (J. — In 1S8(» did you yourself seal? A. — No, 1 did not, Q. — You reniained on the vessel? A, — On the vessel only. Q. — Wh.U was the tonnage of the schooner "Oract'." A. — I cannot .'xactly state but she was 70 or HO ' -is. Q.— -You do not know? A. — I do not kn... Q. — Now, what did I understand ,vou to f,i '.1 c'ossexam ination as to the number of seals that were - ;i;ht during that year in Beliring Sei. ,' What was it acc'oid.n;/ to your recollection, exclusive of the coast catch? A. — 1 have always been of the opi' 1 that '. e laid 1700 in the Behring Sen. The CommisN'r lev on Die part of the United States: — I will ask the sit nogiaph( > ;• strike that answer out. This lo 20 30 40 SO Co Hi is a very importjint qiiestion and the \^itnes8 wants to under- Mtand it and answer it carefully. I want you to be sure, wit- ness, and answer tliat question carefully. Mr. Beique: — I think the answer, as far as I understood it, is a fair reply to the question. The Comniisioner on the part of Her Majesty : — The witness used a word in the answer that might not show a personal recollection. Mr. Bieque: — I thinic the answer is about the best answer that I could get. The Commissioner on the part of the ITnited States: — We will allow the answer to stand. The answer he gave was not in ray judgment a proper response to the question. I want him to answer the question properly for my own sat- isfaction. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — It seems lo me, that that to your question as to what his recollection, it is hardly' a response for the witness to state it as a matter of opinion. I join with my learned colleague in saying that the witness should speak to the best of his recollection. Mr. Bieqne: — May it please 30ur Honours, my object was merely to explain the apparent conflict between the answers given in his direct examination and the answers given in his cross-examination. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Your question was a proper one but the answer was not. Mr. Bieque: — 1 have no objection to put any other question to the witness that will elicit the information that your Hon- our needs. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: This question has been put on the direct examination, and on the cross-examination, and again it is put upon the re-direct ex- amination. I tiiink I will try it myself now. (To the wit- ness.) Q. — Witness, reflect carefully, and from your best re- collection, state as near as you can how many seals were taken by your vessel in the Behring Sea in 1880, excluding those taken outride of the Behring Sea. The Witness: — I cannot recollect very well the catch of the schooner "Grace" on account of it is so man^ years ago this happened, and 1 have not got anything to show. I lost the l»<»ok I had and I have nothing in writing to show what catch we really had. I have only what I took from my memory. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — You are asked what is the best memory you have upon the matter? .v.— It was always what I could remember that we had 1700 seals but I never stated whether it was for the Behring Sea 1111(1 coast catch together. I do not recollect that. The 1,700 seals, that is iviiat we had in the "Graec," and that is all I can recollect. He-direct examination by Mr. Bieque continued: Q. — Now witness, in ISMtJ did the schooner carry the coast • atch into Behring Sea? A. — \o, sir. Q- — Where was it kft before going to Behring Sen? A. — He sent it home from the West Coast to Victoria. Q. — Before entering Behring Sen? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Would that fact the bett«'r enable you to recollect whether the 1,700 seals that you mentioned comprised, or did not compriHt> the coast catch? A. — I cannot say. 1- i:'':'.-'^ ill! i„ lilliil " ;i ' I i p I mtfW^iimmmmm UVft: lO 20 30 40 314 Q. — You do not remeinbor when you ranio back from Rolir- ing Soa what nunibor of wn\H you had on tlu' Onicc? A. — No, sir, 1 nuinot ivnu'nibt'r that. Tlic only (hinj? I can ro- momber was that tlu' schoontM* had 1,700 as a catch. Q. — And your memory is not fresh enough to state whether it comprised the whole catch or only the Hehring Sea catch? A. — No, sir By Mr. Lansing: Q. — Do you mean 1,700 for the whole season? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — lias he not said all he could on that matter, Mr. Lansing? Mr. Lansing: — 1 do not think he has; I do not think that was brought out. The Commissioner on tlie part of the I'nited States: — He has said it two or three different times. Mr. Dickinson: — It may be stated in connection with the testimony of this witness by consent of my learned friend, that the tonnage of the Orace on wliicli tliis catch was made was 76 87-100 tons. (Seventy-six and eighty-seven one hundreths tons.) The Commissioner on tlie part of Iler Majesty: — She was an auxiliary steam schooner? Mr. Dickinson:— Yes. Mr. Peters: — .Vt this point I would ask my learned frientl formally- so that it may go upon the noti's; whelher he has the log of the "Grace" for the year 18M(i and tlie year 1887, or for either of these years, and, if so, will he pr<»duce them? Mr. Dickinson: — We think we have the log for 1887 but we cannot tell witliout examination, and, of course, having no intimation that tlie "(Irace" was to come in question, we have not tlie log in court, neither can we say definitely that we have it without an examination of the jiapers. Mr. Peters: — You will be able to inform us this afternoon? Mr. Diskinson: — After recess we will inform you. Mr. Peters: — And produce it if vou have it? A. — We will. 50 60 James I). Warren, recalled as a witiu-ss on (he part of Great P.ritain. Direct examination by Mr. Beique: Mr. Beique: — I would like to recall, Mr. Warren, in connec- tion with the calch of (he "(Srace" in ISKfi, as (o whether (he 1,700 comprised (he coast catch or not. Mr. Warren has al- ready been sworn. Q. — W<'re you the owner of the "Grace" in 18S(>? A. — Yes, su])posed to be. Q. — Have you any record of the calch of the "Grace" in 1SS((, bo(h oftlie coast e of Munroe. Q. — Whereabouts? A. — Here in Victoria. Q.— What did you just read from? A. — From the entry of her credit. ti. — From the original entry? A. — From the original en try nu'morandum. Q. — It is not an original entry yon have just read? ,\. — We don't keep it in that book, that is a memorandum of the original entry. o Direct examination by Mr. Peters. Q. — You live in Vi<;toria? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How long have you been in Victoria? A. — Been in Vic- toria 10 years. Q. — Where did you originally come from? A. — Halifax. Q. — In Halifax, Nova Scotia? A. — Yes sir. Q. — When did you come around from Halifax, Nova Scotia? A.— In 188G. Q. — What vessel did you come in? A. — In the "Path- finder." Q. — You came around the Horn in her? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Since that time wliat have you been occupied witli? A. — Sealing. Q. — Did you have any pro]M>rty or cash, money or capital wlien you started in 188G? A. — No. Q. — Have vou been emploved in anything but sealing since 1880? A.— No. Q. — And you reside in Victoria, I believe? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do J'OU own your own property? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Own any shipping property? A. — Yes, I own an in- terest in the "f'arlotta Cox." Q. — And you own property besides? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What has your experience been in sealing? Did you seal in 1886? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— On what ship? A.— In tlie "Pathfinder." Q.— Did you seal in 1887? A.— Yes, sir. Q — In what shij)? A. — The same schooner. Q. — In what capacity were you employed in her? A. — I was boat puller on her. Q.— Did you seal in 1888? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — In what .!.' itiJ! ! ! tf m i,'i i ... jil!!!' Ill , ;!iiliii!lilH,|i Illlllf I ,lll I' M iil UlM. 3'» y. — Sinco that time have you aoalcd every year? A. — Ye», sir. Q. — In what capacity? A. — As master. Q.— Of what ship? A.— The Curiotta Cox for five years and one year as master of tlie "E. M. Marvin." Q. — That is your e.vperience as a sealer? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Began as boat puller and now a master and part own- er? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now I want to get one or two things from you. In 10 1886 you were on the "Pathfinder?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you go into Behring Sea? A. — Y'es. Q. — Y'ou went into Behring Sea at what time that year? A. — 4th. of June. Q. — Were the seals there when you first went in? A. — No, sir. Q. — When did yon first start sealing? A. — I caught a few seals along about the first of July, but we did not strike any quantity of them until the 12th. of July. 20 Q. — How long did j-ou stay in Behring Sea? A. — Until the 4th. of August. Q. — Do j-ou remember how many seals you got during that time? A. — I cannot say exactly, but it was somewhere In the neighborhood of 1,400. Q. — You are only speaking from memory? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Y'ou left Behring Sea on the th of August? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Just tell rne the reason of your leaving? A. — On that 30 day some of our boats spoke the schooner "Sylvia Handy" of San Francisco and they told our boats that the cutters had seized vessels in Behring Sea, and we did not cure to risk our catch no longer, so we left and came home. Q. — Now, were you there the first, second, and third of August? A. — Y'es. Q. — Can you, from memorandum, tell me whether or not during those days you caught any seals and if so, how many? A. — Either on the first, or second, I would not be sure which, .Q but I presume it was on the second of August we got one hundred and fifty seals with five boats. And on the third day of August, whicli was a foggy day, the catch was very suuill; we were quite close to tlie Aleutian Islands, say seven or eiglit miles from the Aleutian Islands on the 3rd. Q. — On the 4th? A. — On the 4th it was ratlier a strong breeze for boats to hunt, although we hunted a half day. Q. — What did you catch? A. — We got about 40 seals on the 4th. Q. — These facts you remember? A. — I remember quite well. Q. — Now in 1887 did jou go into Behring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In what slilp? A.— On the "Pathfinder." Q. — How long were you in that year? A. — We were in that year from the 28th of June until the 17th of August. Q. — Can you tell me the number of boats you had in 1887? A. — Yes, sir, we had six regular hunting boats. 60 Q- — That was more than the year before? A. — Yes, we only had five regular hunting boats in 188fi. Q. — I am not going into particulars of this ship because we already have had from Captain O'Leary these (addressing witness). Now I want you to go back, leaving those two years that vou were sealing, did von know a seal hunter named Edward Shields? A.— Yes. " Q. — Where is Edward Shields? .\. — He was drowned last spring. SO 319 10 20 40 6o il — Will yon li-ll inc how louy you liiul known him? A.— I had known liini Hinco 18M7. Q. — What reputation did lie bear as a hunter? A. — First class. Q. — Had ,vou ever been hunting with hlni? A. — I was on the same vessel with him in 1HS7. Q. — That was the "Pathtlnder"? A. — Yea, sir; he was hun- ter on her that year. Q. — So jou speak of his qualities as a h>uiter from actual knowledge? A. — Certainly I do. Q. — Were .von with him more than one year? A. — No. tj. — Did you know Joseph Diipont? A. — Yes, sir. y. — He was also a hunter? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Were vou ever shipmate with him? A. — I was. * g.— In what year? A.— In 18S7. on the "Pathfinder." g. — What duties did he perform? A. — He was a hunter at that time. Q. — Will you tell me what sort of a hunter he was? A. — First elass at that time. Q. — .lohn Cotsford, do you know? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Had you ever been shipmate with him? A. — No. sir. Q. — Did you know him by reputation? A. — I did. Q. — What was his reputation as a hunter? A. — I don't know what his rejmtation was in 1887, but since then he is reputed to be a first class hunter. (i. — In 1887 you simply say you do not know? A. — No, I do not know. H. — I believe vou did not know the other man McCauitrv? A.— No, sir, I did not. Q. — Can you tell the elass of gun that is used in these sealinfj vessels? A. — Do you mean at the present time? Q.— No, in 188(i and 1887? A.— We had an English gun in 188(> and 1887, I presume the Honehill. Q. — An English breech-loader? A. — An English breech- loader. (i. — Do you know anything about their value? A. — I don't know what their value was; they were a high-priced gun. il. — With regard to catching seals — boats compared with seen canoes out in just as rough weather as I weald care to put boats out in. ii- — Now with regard to the weather that yon actually fish sciilH in; what kind of weather is the best weather for fishing seals? A. — ('aim days. Q. — Hut do yon confine your fishing to calm days? A. — \o. sir. g— What weather do you fish in? .A.— Well, we fish in some very rough weather. f fi'"^! ' ' ^ Ml '(f'lt; i 1 320 iu' nt a Hxi'd Hpt't'd or hIowIj? A. — Do ,voiJ iiH'tin tln' lant Hl»pro«cli? Q. — TIh' last approach? A. — The hiHt a])pruacli in v»'ry hIow. Q. — Aft«'r witliin wliat distance? A. — Fifty .vardH. Q. — Now wlu'n yon pet witliin tliat «'lost' tliat yon Inivc dcHciibcd tO' a Hcal, \h tlicro any j^rcat anionnt of Hkill r*M|niri>d 10 in actmilly shooting a soal? A. — No, not a (jivat d.uil. <'i'OH8-(>xaniination by Mr. Dickinson. ii. — IH8(» was yonr first time out, was it? A. — Yoh, sir. Q. — Yon were ii bojif pnlh>r? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — And not a hnntcr? A. — No. (}. — Did yon keep any nicnionindnni of th«' catch? A. — I (lid not. Q. — And did yon kwp any memorandum of the catch in 1SS7? A.— No, sir. (j. — I think von got 1!M) H«>alH on the 2nd of Anjj;nsT (»n fite "I'athfinder" In 1886? A.— Yes, the first or second I ain't certain about that date. Q. — You were sealing;, I think you said, in 1887, the year followinjj? A. — YiM*, sir. Q. — And you became a hunter? A. — Not in 1887. i}. — You were still a boat i»uller? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— And in 1888? A.— I was hunter on the "Pathfinder." Q.— And in 188!)? A.— In 18SS I was hunter on the "I'ene- {•►pe, and in 188!» on the "Pathfinder." Q._18!)(»? A.— On the "Triumph," Q.— 18!H? A.— Master of theCarlotta Tox. (i.— 18!t2? A.— Master of the "Carlotta <'ox. 5 seals? A. — 1st or 2n(l of Augnst. Q.— That on the .'ifli you got 40? A.— Yes, sir. (2. — Now, will ycui be kind enough to tell me how much you got (»n the 1st or 2nd of August, 1887? A. — No. Q. — Will you be good enough to ti'll us lu»w nuiny you got on the 4th of August, 1887? A.— No, sir. (■i. — \Yill you kindly tell ns how much you got in 1888 on the 2nd of August? A.— 1888, 2nd of August, \ • were flsli- ing at the <'onnunnder Islands then. (i. — Sealing? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — And the other years that yon have told of, you were sealing in Hehinng Sea in August? A. — Yes, sir. <}. — How many did you get on the 4th of August, 1888? A. — I do not remember. <}. — How many did you get (m the first ten days In August in 1888? A. — I do not remember. H. — ' V many did you get the ;ii> ten days of August in 18S7? A. — I do not remember. Ci- — How niiiny did yon get on the 2nd of August in 1889? A. — I do not remember. Q. — The first ten days of Augtist — the whole month of August? A. — I do not remember. (i. — How nniny on the 4th of August in any of those years? ho A. — I do not renu'mber. (i.— 18!K>? A.— No. ii.— 18rtl? A.— No. Q.— 1892? A.— No. 0— Yon became a master in 1891? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — A master of a sealing ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— .And kept the record? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — .Vnd you cannot remember how much yon got on any 40 iO (lav? 21 A. — Oh, \■^'t>, I can remeniber. Ii!' ii '0'i i 1 !l i22 Ml'tr , 'I 30 iy — WIh'U ,vuu wi'vv iiiiiHti'r? A. — Ycm. ti. — How ninii.v did .vuu fivi on tli«' 4lli of Aii^uhI, ISIH? A. — I do not reuH inltci' liow nnin.v I K<>t •»> '!>*' l*l> <>f AuKUHt. ii — Mow niiin.v on tJu- HiHt li-n dii.vs of Aii);uKt tluil .vou w«'i<' mnHtcr? A. — I did not HhIi fttr t«'n days. 1 wuh order- ed out of Itclirin); Hen on tlic iHt of Annnst. »i.— WVi'c yon Hnliin;.' ten dtiyn in Auj,'H«t, IS'Jl, wlit'u you wi'ir cai'liiin? A. — \o. (i. — How ninny days? A. — S days. 10 (j. — How many did yon ^i^•t alto^ctiit-r in Auf^uHt, IH'M, wlh-n yon w«*n' nniKtcr? A. — I do not r<'ni»'nil»t'r. (i. — And all tlic otlicr y< arn I'xn'pt \HHVt you weri' a liunti'r. and 1HH7? A.— Y»h. sir." (2. — Attually cuKaKcd in HluMttin^ Kcais? A. — Ych. Q. — Now ran you tell nx wlu'u yon wtTc out in 1SS7. liow nianv m'als you Rot in Juiv, tlio first twclvu days? A. — No, not 18H7. li.— In 1887 von w»'ie still on the "Patlifind«i"? A.— Yt's, nil'. 20 Q- — And you wen* still a boat inillor? A. — Yos, sir. Q. — \Yh«'n did yon coninK'nre to take seals in 1887? W»> coninienced on tlie '2Ut\\ of June. ii. — Did you get any seals in June? A. — Yes, we got 5(i on the 2!tth. I don't renuMuber whether we lowered on the ;{((th or not. ii, — Can vou reuH'inber what vou got in July, 1887? A. — No. Q. — When vou coninieneed to get the largest cafi-h in Jjily? .v.— No. Q. — Now you knew Ed. Shields to be an experienced hun- ter, didn't you? A. — No, sir. y.— Reputed as such? \.—Y (J. — And how long had he b' sealing ric«» of a boat? A.— 1100. about. (i. — Now m'lu'rally tlu' larp' Hi'tilcrn urn' the boats do they not? A. — Only tlioHc who take white men iiw boatH. (J. — Are not white men considered better than Indians? A. -No, sir. (J.— Not better hunters? A.— No. o.? (). — They are no' more desirable? A. — No, I presunie'they are not as desiral)!*' as Indians at the present time. (i.— I am speakiiiK of ISHti and 1H.S7. A.— Well. I do not know at that time they were about equal; I think the Indian was just as desirable as the white man. Q. — And they accomplished aw jjood results in the canoe, I suppose. A.— Yes, according to the amount they carried. Q.— And what had the "I'athtlnder" In 188(}? A.— She had white men. (i. — And boats? A. — Y'es, boats. 40 Q.— Do you know any reason why they didn't have canoes and Indians. A. — No none whatever. Q._What did she have in 1887. A.— She had boats. (i. — And white men. A. — Y^es. ti.— And in 1888 von were on the ? A.— "Penelope." Q.— What did she have? A.— She had boats. Q.— And Indians? A.— No. Q.— White men? A.— Yes Q.— Next year, 188(-, the same? A.— Yes. 50 Q. — I suppose the object of goina; up to Itehriiif^ Pea is to jjet as many seals as possible? A. — Yes, that is the object. (i. — And in 1888, when you first became master, did you have white men or Iiidians. A. — White men. Q. — And boats. A. — Yes. Q- — Can white men use a canoe as well as an Indian? A. — I think so. Q- — They can "et over as much ground in a canoe as an In- dian can can they'' A. — W^s. 60 He direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q.— Y'ou were asked by Mr. Dickinson as to the catch .von had made In certain other years. As a matter of fact is tliere iiny reason why you can tell us what .vou did in the first four iliiys of August, 188((, how is it .von come to remember that? A— Well, lil'i is a |»heii witli five boats. Q. — I'robably .von can tell na the dale of that, can't you? A. — Yes, sir, I can tell von date of that. Q.— What date was it? A.— The 20th of July. Q. — And that is what fixes the date in your memory. A. — Yea, air. Q. — You were aato'd something about the difference be- tween white men and Indiana. I simply want to asJv you this question: In 1S8«> and 1SS7 were the Indians in the habit of usinfj guna at all. A. — No. Q. — So that if you had an Indian crow at that time you would have to use spears. A. — Yes, air. (J. — At that time whicli were con)»idered best, speara or guna. A. — Guns. Q. — You stat<'d with regard to Shields that you had only known him for the year 1)^S7 and that his seal liunting so far as you knew had only been in lS8fi? I understood you to say something about liis being a hunter all hi.-^ life. A. — Not a seal hunter — he was hunting around the islands, deer hunt- ing, and so on, ever since he was a boy. 30 He-cross examination by Mr. Dickinsim: Q. — The catch of 40 on the day that you named in August, was not plienomenal was it. A. — No, the reason I remember that so distinctly was because we were out half a day and wc had to leave and go home. <<••(!(((■ H ("liarles Augustus Lundberg was called on the part of Great Hritain and duly sworn. 40 i^ii' <'• H. Tujiper; — In one of the reports read to the ("(tmmission yesterday from the seizing officers, the catcli of tile "Ada" was said (o be 1H7(! skins; and 1 wish to examine Mr. Lundberg slioitly witli reference to tiiat catch. Direct examination by Sir (\ II. Tapper: (i. — Wliat wa.s your position on tlie schooner "Ada?" A. — I was mate. (i.— In wiiat year? A.— ISST. 50 Q- — Had you any other duties beside mate. A. — Well I was mate and liead liunter. i}. — When did you first begin sealinu? A. — I began seal- ing ill 1SS(» Q. — And you followed that line of business from that up? 'A. — No, not riglit thi'ough. I stayed ashore. Q. — When were yon sealing again. A. — Well, I sealed in ISSU-Sl and 1S,S2 in the fall. Q. — You went as diief hunter on tlie ''.Vda" from what port? A. — From Yokohiima. I did not go as mate from 60 Yokohama; as mate from N'ictoria, and chief hnnt«'i'. (2.— In tliis s<"ason of l.SS"? A.— 1SH7. Q. — Did you go direct to ISehring Sea in that season? .\. — X<»; we went down on the coast for a month. Q. — Wliiit did you catch on the coast? A. — .'U'.l skins. (). — Wliat did you do with (hem? A. — Sent them on board of I lie "I'cnelope" to come ii|> liere. (J. — You sliipped those caught on (lie coast on (lie "I'enc- lope"? A. — Yes, 20 '^0 325 Q. — What (lid Iho "Ada" d«^ then; where did slie go? A. — We went out to try and get some more, but we did not get iiiiy, we only got seven »k\uti and eanie batk to Victoria again. Q. — Then wliar did you do. A. — We fitted out for lieliring Sea (.i —A nd weiit ? A .— ^'es. (J.— When did you sail direct for Tteliring Sea? A.— The iTtli of June. y. — How many skins did you get on tlie way before you 10 >r()t into Heliring 8ea? A. — We only got five skins. Q. — I>o yon ircoll«'(t the eatcli — total catcli on tliat last lrij»? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What was it? A.— 1,87«. (.}. — And tae five out of that were caught outside of the Sea? A. — Yes. they were cauglit on the way up. Q.— Where were tiie 1,871 caught? A.— In IJehring Sea. (J. — Wliat happened to you during that season — to thp sliij* after your lutch? .\. — We were seized. Q. — What date; do you renienilter the day? A. — Yes, sir. the 2r)th of Auarust. Q. — IIow was the sealing tlien? A — It was good; cauglit ;!S iM'fore breakfast. * Cross-examination by Sir. Warren: Q. — Mr. Lundberg you liad seven canoes and two sealing boats? A. — We liad .seven canoes and tlie sk'rn boat and one boat — one Doat and stern boat. (i. — Tliat made seven canoes and two boats? A. — Yes. i}. — I "id you liave whit(? hunters or Indians? A. — In- dians. Q. — Tlie Indians sealed in the boats as well as the cano<'s? A.— Tlie interpreter hunted in one boat and the Indians li anted in canoes. (i. — Were the boats out considerable of the time. A. — Tile stern boat was out very seldom. iy — Tlie other lioat was out wlu'U the canoes were out? .\.— Yes. (i.— And who was in that? A. — The interpreter we had. 0. — What time did you get into the Sea? A. — We went into the Sea — we went through the pass on the IStli of July. (■i. — And you hunted continuously during the days you could lower your boats until August 2r)th? A. — Yes, sir (■i. — Were you not ready to leave the Sea? A. — No, sir. {]. — The same day you were seized, the "Allie I. Alger" was seized? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Isn't it a fact that you and the "Allie I. Alger" had made arrangements to leave the Sea the day before you were 50 seized? A, — No, sir. (i. — You have got a claim tlien iu'fore this ('onimissi you along side of the "Allie I. Alger?'' A.— A>'e v.ere n;>t, Q.— IIow far were you from her? A —I don't know. Q. — Was she seized first? A. — She was in tow when he itune along to us. Q. — IIow many Indians were there hunting from each one of tliese canoes, armed with guns or spears? A. — Holh guns iiiul spears. 40 ho ' m| [ tf i ' 1 1 t I'. a i It! 1 r^ '•in' ■ *■ t ^ m I If!! \'t. !:'M i'iil'i •■, i '■■ii !• ill' 1!^ 326 Q. — What guns? A. — Sliot guns, donblod-barrpled, I do not rt'iiK'iiibpr the make of thein. We got them up from Han Pranciseo any way, a box of gnns. Q. — What was the registered tonnage of the "Ada," yon lomeniber? A. — Slie was Or> tons and some odd. Q. — That was what she was registered at Yokohama. A. — She registered at Shanghai. Q. — What was tlie British measurement. A. — 05 tons that was marked on her. Kir r. H. Tapper: — That is British measurement. (i— Were you in th<' Sea in 1HS(!? A.— No. H. — >Vas tins yonr ttrst trip in 1SH7? A. — No, sir, I was in tlie Sea in 1881. Q. — Hunting seals? A. — Yes. Q. — What else were you hunting besides seals? A. — Sea otters. Q. — Printipally for sea otters? A. — Principally for sea otters. 20 Q. — Didn't take many seals? A. — No. we only got four hundred and odd, coming aeros-s the sea. lO 30 Robert E. ifcKeil was called as a witness on the part of (ireat Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Bodwell. Q. — Where do you live Mr. McKeil? A. — Victoria. Q. — What is your occupatiim? A. — Master of a sealing schooner. Q. — Were you engaged in sealinjr in 1887? A. — I was. Q. — Had vou been engaged in sealing before that time? A. —I had, Q Q. — Where were yon engaged in sealing in 1887? A. — On the coast and in Behring Sea. Q. — In what cajfacity did you go? A, — Master. Q.— Of what vessel?" A.— "Mary Taylor." Q. — How many boats did you hav«'? A. — I had six on start- ing out from San Francisco; I lost one boat, she was smashed aboard, and from that time I had tive; that was in I\[arch I think. (i. — From that time you hunted with live. A. — From that time we hunted with five. tjo Q- — Where were you when you lost tlie bo.-it, in what jM)si- tion generally speaking? .\. — We was about ott' ('ape Beale. I think about '-'(I miles otT shor<>. (i.--Did yon go to Belirin-.; Sea? A. — I did. (i. — Did vou keep a htg .•nd a record of vour vovage? A. — I did. Q. — Do you know what has become of that? A. — It was left with tiu- sch(>oi:er wh;'n I h'ft iier (J. — And you have not seen it since? A. — I have not seen it sinr:e. 60 Q' — Have you any recollection as to the time when you en ter«'d Behring Sea? A. — Somewhere b«'tween the 20th of •Inne and the 2r>th, I am not certain. I think it was the 2.trd or the 24th. (J. — How long did you stay in the Sea? A. — I came out of the i)ass aliout the last of July, I am not certain about that date there. Q. — Was it later than the end of Julv? A. — No, it was la Jnlv. 327 Q. — What was tlu> (iccawon of your having the Sea at that lime. A. — I heard that tliere was a nuiiibtr of schooners seized, and in fact I was told thai tlie cutter was loolving for nie. my vessl, so I conchided to U'ave. Q. — How nianv seals did von have up to that date in the Sea? A.— I could not be certain, but 1 had about 700— 7;{(», OP somewhere along about that. Q. — Can you give us the whole catch for that year? A. — The whole catch was 1,040. 10 Q. — You are not certain as to the amounts you had in IJeliring Sen? A. — No. (J. — How was the weather when you left? A. — It was fine weather. Q. — Can you state generally in wliat part of the Sea you were working? A. — To the southward and westward of Saint (leorge's Island. Q. — You would be able to indicate generally on the chart? A. — I would. Q. — Look at tlie chart of Hehring Sea and give me your 20 position generally, by latitude and longitude, if you can? A. — (F^xamining chart) In the vicinity of KO north latitude, 171 west longitude. Q. — It was about that position? A. — In that vicinity. I know the bearings of the islands. Q. — Did you have occasion to go for any water that year? A.— I had. Q. — Where did you go? A. — To Tnimak Island. Q. — From what position did you go to I'nimak Island for water? About that position I named. 30 ().— When did you go? A.— I left the 24th of July. i}. — Did you get back to the sealing grounds? A. — I never got the water. While I was going down for the water I spoke the schojmer. Q.— You quit sealing tlii'n. on the 24th of July? A. — No, I sealed— I think I sealed d in other seasons? A. — I have. (j. — Are you r ing to be away for some time, Mr. McKeil? 40 A. — I am not ( lain, I may have to go away. The ("dmniissioners took recess until 2::i0 p.m. At 2:.']0 the Commissionora resumed their seats. Mr. Lansing: — If the Commissioners jtlease, m.\ learned friend, Mr. I'eters, called for the logs uf the "Kllen," the 50 "Annie," the "Alfred Adams," the "Ada" and the "Orace" for 1HS7. Is that correct, Mr, Peters? Mr. Peters:—! would like the "Alfred Adiims."' (Pajx'rs passed to coiinsel for Great Ilrilain.) Crosscxaminalion of Mr. Keil by Mr. Warren: Q. — Cai»tain McKeil, you used five boats on the "Mary ^ Taylor" throughout the season of 1SK7, or so long as you '^ were in the Sea, did you not? A.— Let me see, yes. (J. — And did you have Indians, or white hunters? A. — White hunters. Q.— How many men in a boat? A. — Three men in a boat. Q. — Is it an advantage to have three men in a boat? A. — Yes. (i.— .\nd yon would not have such grod results with two men in a boat? A.— Well, no, three men do better work than two men. iiii!'- ' 32S ill 20 30 40 •ulMi 50 60 Q. — Onf of them pulls; tlii" b«iiit, one of them ntcers the bout iuid one of them shoots? A. — Well, .yes, the steerer's w(H'k is to }iet up (m the seals, he steers the boat up on the seal. ii. — .\nd )>utside of that time he also pulls? A, — I'ulls oi* l»UKhes. Q. — Is it a fact that sometimes the ])uller or steercr, or both, shoot? A. — Never, to my knowledge. (i- — Hut where theiv are three men in a boat, it gives tlw hunter better opjMirtunitv to shoot than where there are s also? A.- IJitles and shot jjuns. Q. — Did they buy their own puns, or did you buy them? A. — The seliooner bouf^ht them. Q. — Hoth rifles and shot guns? A. — Yes. (J. — And did you hny the ammunition? A. — Yes, every- thing. Q. — What was the tonnage of the "Mary Taylor? A. — I can't recollect. I think about 4r) tons register. Q. — Was she a Itritish ship? A. — She was under the Brit- ish flag while I was on her. Q. — Registered at the port of Victoria? A.— Registered at the port of Victoria? Q. — Afterwards owned by Mr. Munsie was she not? A. — I believe Mr. Munsie bought her afterwards. Q. — When did he buy her? A. — I can't recollect that. Q. — Who owned her when you were in her? A. — Captain J. 1). Warren. Q. — Did Captain Warren sell her to Mr. Munsie? A. — I d(m't know that; I was away from Victoria at the time. Q. — You think von went into the Sea somewhere between the 2(Hh. and the iTith. of June? A.— Yes. Q. — And came out the latter part of July? A. — Yes. Q. — Hecause you heard of the seizures? A. — Yes. Q. — In 1S,S7 what boats did you sjieak in the Sea. if you can remember them? \. — I spoke the "Pathfinder," the "O. S. Fowler" and the ",\dele," three schoners. Q. — You spoki' the "Svlvia Handy," ddn't you? A. — No. Q.— Which boat told you? A.— I think the "O. S. Fowler." Q. — She was a San Francis«'o boat? A. — I think so, y«'8. t^. — The "Adele" was Captain Hansen's boat? A. — Yes. Q.— You did not see the "Little Triumph?" A.— No. Q. — You say that you were hunting down near the Aleu- tian Islands in July? A. — I believe I lowered down there, T know of once, and I may have lowered twice. Q. — You took th(> most of your seals down in that vicinity, didn't you? A.--I got the most of my seals about 00 miles southwest from St. Oeorge's Island, in that vicinity; I can't tell the distance exactly now, it was near a supposed island. If was marked on the old charts. Q. — 50 or (to miles in what dii-ection from St. deorge's Is- land? A. — To the srtuthward and westward; I c(»uldn't say the exact bearingss. Q.— You took 1,040 seals in the Sea that year? A.— No, 1 took that for the season altogether. (>. — .\nd Iiow many id you lower in what is known as the Fair Weather ;;rounds? A. — No, 1 did not go near them that year, 1 took a Hti-aiglit course from Queen C'luirlotte Island to I'ort Lock itank. Q. — Does it make any difference in the results whether white men us>» canoes or boats, do you think? A. — Yes, a great deal of ditterence. Q. — Does a white man get better results if he has a boat tluin if he has a canoe? A. — He has better results with boats. Q. — Wliy is that? A. — Well the white man can't get ac- ,_ customed to a canoe as well as an Indian; at least I know I ■-'° can't. Q. — You have tried it, have you? A. — I haven't tried sealing; but I have Tried going around in canoes. Q. — You have tried to paddle a canoe? A. — Paddle them, >■<'»• i : '* , :--i I (i. — Did you ever use one with oars? A. — No- Q. — Do you think that a white nian in a boat could gei more seals than if he was using a canoe with oars? A. — A wliite ma a in a boat, shooting, would get more seals than an 40 Indian in a canoe shooting. Q. — A wliite nuin shooting in a boat would get more seals than a wliite man shooting from a canoe? A. — Yes, that is my opinion. Q. — Proportionately, what difference do you think it would make" A. — Well I can't say, but I think six good white liiiiiters would be equal to ten canoes, the average canoes. Q, — You are now comparing white hunters with Indians in ciinoes? A. — Yes. Q. — I want you to address yourself to comparing white men 50 ill canoes witli white men in boats? A. — I never had any white uu'n get any seals in a canoe. Q. — Your white men never use canoes? A. — They never did. Q. — Yon don't think that a vessel that liad canoes, to lie used by white hunters, would be as well equipped as a ves- sel that had boats to be used by white hunters, do you? A. — No. I don't think so. Q. — Now you roam around the Sea a good deal looking for Ctn si':ils, don't you? You don't stay in one place? A. — Not if (here is no seals there. (i.— SoiiietimcH sail !"iO or 70 miles a day? A. — Yes. I have tteen further than that in 24 hours looking for them. (i. — Do you think that because one vessel takes seals in Iteliriiig Hea tliat that is any indication that another could lake fliem in the same jilace, or at the same time? A. — Well, if llie oilier one has the same equipment, she would stand n cliance of making (he same catch of seals. 1: ^^ Ml' 330 Q. — ThtTc* is a poBsibility you iiK'an? A. — PoHsiltility, of one vosst'l innkiiig a f;<»'> or 50 miles from •o that place, there is a probability, or a possibility, that the "Carolena," for instance, could have taken the same number of seals in another part of the Sea? A.— Certainly a pos- sibility. Q. — Is theve any probability? A. — I couldn't say for sure; there is a possibility. Q. — No basis on which you can absolutely reckon it, is there? A.— No. Q. — Do you think there is any hasis upon which a compar- ative catch can be nnidt^ — estimated catch? A. — I don't 2° know, I have never tliouj;ht much about it. Q. — How would you arrive at that result if you started out to reckon it? A. — I don't (juite understand. (Question not pressed.) Q. — Where was the "Mary Taylor" outfitted that year? A. — San Francisco, when she started out first. Q. — In those days, were boats sailinf; from the port of San Francisco better eipiipped and outfitted than vessels sailing from the port of \'ictoria? A. — I d(»n't think tiiey wtrc. 3° Q. — Don't you know that they were. Captain, as a matter of fact? A. — Had a better e(iuipm(nt, sailing from San Francisco? Q. — Yes? A. — I don't think that they had, I don't know that they had. Q. — In the early days sealing started from San Francisco, didn't it, the sealing industry? A. — I don't know, I wasn't liere. Q. — The first boat that ever went into the Sea and made a business of sealing was the "San Diego." wasn't it? A. — 4° I couldn't say, I might possibly Imve lieard that, but I don't know that myself. i}. — She sailed from San Francisco, difin't she? A. — I sailed from San Francisco. Q. — She skilled from San Francisco? A. — The "San Diego"? Q.— Yes? A.— i don't know. at all. Q. — Wliy did you go down to San Francisco to outfit the "Mary Taylor" in 1HS7? A.— Well, I had nothing to say in the matter. The vessel was sent down there. Q. — Who sent her down? A. — Cajttain Warren. Q. — Why did he send her down there, unless they were outfitted better at that point? A. — Well, I suppose perhaps it might have been cheaper to outfit her there at San Fran- cisco. I suppose that was probably the reason she was sent there. Q. — You used to carry provisions and board your crew and your hunters in that year, didn't you? A. — Aboard the ves- sel, yes. Q. — And did you furnish everything? A. — Furnished fverything, yes. Q. — In those days boats «'quipped with Indian hunters iised to sell some of the su|»i)lies to the Indians, did they not? A. — I suppose they did carry some. On the sealing grounds? Q. — Yes. A. — Not that I kiutw of. I never heard of it. SO 6o 331 Q. — You 8Ji^* vou trausferred your skins to the "VV. P. Say- ward;" tliat was auolLor ono of Cai>taiu Warren's boats, was it not? A. — Yes. (J. — V.'as it a common thing among the fleet for them to transfer cargoes from one boat to anotlier? A. — Well, there were two steam schooners, and the skins were left in port for one of these schooners to take in to Victoria, if she hap- pened to be going there. Q. — And the "Grace" was one of these steam schooners? 10 A. — Yes. Q. — And the "Dolphin" was the other? A. — Yes. Q. — And I believe the "Thornton" had auxiliary? A. — I have heard so. I never saw her. Q. — You say the "Dolphin" and the "Grace" would collect Die skins from the ports where they Iiappcned to be left and bring them down to Mctoria? A. — I don't say that exactly. If I remember right I spoke the "W. P. Sayward," and I think lie had verbal instructions for me to deliver my skins up to him, and I went up to Dodge's Cove and did so. 20 Q. — Do you remember whether the "Dolphin" that year received any skins from other vessels of the fleet? A. — 1 do not. Q. — Do you know whether the "Grace" received any skins from any other vessel that year? A. — No, I couldn't say tJjat; I don't know. Q. — And the year before; I suppose you have no know- ledge? A. — I have no knowledge. Q. — Could j-ou approximate, Captain, the number of skins that you took between the place that you landed the 167 skins 3° down here on the coast and Behring Sea? A. — Yes. Q. — What is your best recollection? .\. — I think about 97; il was under 100, a very few under 100. Q. — That would bring your catch in the Sea down to about 000? A.— Catch in the Behring Sea? The catch would be something over 700. Re-direct examination by Mr. Bodwell: Q. — You don't know why Mr. Warren sent the "Mary Tay- 40 lor" to San Francisco, as a matter of fact? A. — He never lold me, that 1 recollect, just why. Q. — And you are only giving an opinion without any actual Knowledge? NVhen did you leave Victoria after going out with tlio "Mary Taylor," when you left altogether? I un- derstood you to say that you left Victoria after you had been out on a voyage on the "Mary Taylor?" A. — No, I was never away only when I was sealing, except one year when I was over to Japan. (.}. — Yon spoke about Mr. Munsie's buying the "Afary Tay- 50 lor." .\r a matter of fact, you do not know anything about it. do yon? A. — I was over in Japan at the time. Q. — You don't know whether he did or not? A. — I have heard he did. Q. — You know Cotsford, don't yon? A. — Only by hear- say. Q. — Haven't you seen him? A. — I think I have seen him, bnt T wouldn't recollect him now. Q. — You know that he is a halfbreed, don't you, or part Indian? A. — Yea. Q. — Tie would be apt (o know something about a canor. wouldn't he? .\. — Tf he had been accustomed to be in or.e I snpi»ose he would. Q. — .Vs a matter of fact, when you speak of canoes, you an Jijx'aking of canoes manned by Indians altogether, aren't you. and using paddles? A.— Yes. Q. — You have be<>n out sealing how nmny years altogether? A. — I have been sealing since 1887. no W 1 'i i fit ■I' I' 1,1 Ml , JIM ll| IJ I "I Ul'lll i j Q. — And you have gono to Ri'liring Hon bow mnny tlmoB? A. — Mix tiiiu'H. Q. — Now how (locH year coiuimro with the track of your vohhcI tlu' sue- cooding year, goniTally spi'akinp? A. — Wi'll, do you niran whew I have saih»d mostly? Q. — What I mean is (his: Docs your track in ono year cover generally the same ground as your track the next year; gen- erally speaking, 1 mean? A. — Well, yes; the track this year 10 will cover the year before. Q. — Not precisely, but generally? A. — Yes. The Commissioner on the part of Tier Majesty:— You can re-examine on this i)oiut, Air. Warren, if you desire. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — You don't mean to say that there are any set courses in Heliring Sea on which a vessel steers each year when she is sealing, do you? A. — No. 20 Q. — As a matter of fact you go at random wherever you can find seals, do you not? A. — Not exactly at random. For instance: If I go into Iteliring Kea next year. I will cruise nround where I saw them the most this year; if there is none there I will — Q. — If you happened to get some seals last year where yon never got any before, wonid you go there this year? A. — Cer- tainly. Q. — Then you would go where you thought you would have -good luck; is that it? A. — Well, I would i)rosi)ect around until I found some seals, and if I found enough to warrant my staying, I would stop. Q. — Oh, it depends very much on the judgment of the mas- ter of a vessel, does it not, where he will go? A. — I suppos*' everybody has their own ideas; all the nuisters. Q. — Will a shij) that has an experienced master get better results than a ship which has a master who has never been in the Sea before? A. — Well, I suppoi Commissioner i>n the jtart of the United States: — Mr. Warren, are you not rather departing from the niiitter which my associate had in mind? Mr. Warren: — I do not know but that last cjuestion does a little. The Commissioner on the jiart of the T'nited States: — My asociate had in mind the last matter opened up bv Mr. liod- well. 50 Q. — In all your experii'nce in (he Sea. Captain, can you mention a place where von always <'Xiiect lo find seals? \.— No, I don't know as I can, any particular jilace. Mr. Hodwell: — I now offer abstract from the book of Will- iam T. Uragg, which I mentioned yesterday. I have given a copy to counsel for the United States, and I i)ropose to tile the book with the S«'cretary, for the purpose of reference and companson, if it should be necessary. 30. 60 The Commissioner on the i);irt of the United States; — l>o you desire to examine it before it goes in, Mr. Lansing? Mr. Lansing: — We would like to. The C(»mmissioner on the part of the United Slates: — Yon had better withdraw it then. Mi'. Hodwell, until to-morrow morning. (Abstract withdrawn.) Mr. Peters: — 1 wish to put in evidence the oiiginal declar- a(ii* kiiiHoii: — Dtx's lu.v Icaiiurl filtiid find mi.v discri'j)- andi'H lK'fwt'«n llic jirinti'd oni' and fliis? Mr. IVfi'i's: — I onl.v want tlif docinncnt in. I put tlu' (irifjinal (inc In because it was more eoiivenient. Tliere is ni» dis(rej»an«y between Ibis and (lie iirinted one, tliat I luiow 10 of. Mr. Ditkinson: — I don't quite see liow tlie statement of Mr. Warren ean be ionii»etent. Tlie Conuiiissioner on tlie part of tlie United States: — Wliat is your purpose? Mr. IVters: — HeeauK' my learned friend erossexamined .Mr. Warren uiK)n a <"ertain ])ara}>;rapli of this document, try- ing! to l)rinK out, as I understood liini, tliat tliere was some 20 dill'erence iM'tween tlie statement that lie had made in this (leclaiation and the statement that be made here. The ( '(miniissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Are there any parts of that paper which so (pnilify? Mr. I'eters: — The document, taken as a wholi;, shows that (he statement made by Mr. Warren upon its face is a state- ment made from certain information he had rtceived from oilier parties, and (hat iiiforiiiation is subslaniially correct; but I wish to put it in for the jturpose of showing that he was 3° making a statt'inent on its face based on information received from other parties. The ronimissioner on tlu' jiart of the T'nited States: — Can- not you call attention to those portions to show tliat fact? Mr. I'eters: — I submit that my learned friend havihjj cross- examined in detail as to this document, leaves it open to us to put the whole document in. -Mr. Dickinson: — That is not the rule, your Honour. Aji- -^° l>lyinjj; the rule, they caiiiiot in that way tjet in evidence in cliicf which has no pertinency to the cross-examination; and, in order to }jet in any jiarts of it to answer to the cross-ex- amination, they must re-e:camine the witness (m the stand, and call his attention to t'ae miitTer that modifies it. The ("ommissioner on the part of Her Majesty; — That Kcenis to me to be tic- lefjii'ar course, to jiass it throu}?h the witness' mind in reexamination; if anything has been omit- t(d which you think ou};ht to have been brou{;lit out as affeci- ijO iiifj the answers that were jjiven. Mr. IVters: — This document would be evidence in this mut- ter on another ground — evidence as showint; tlu* claim that was put in originally to the Tuitt d States tJovernnient upen this matter. It would be evileaHe .vour lIonourH, and we have to meet its statements. With all dne deference to my learned friend, it is an entirely novel proposition that a man contemplating a law suit may send his claim to the party whom lie se»']<8 to diarge, and then, when the case comes on for hearing at nisi prius — if we deduce our rules from analogy to nisi prius — put in that claim that he has made up as evidence. We do not so un- derstand the rule. W«' cross examined as to ]>nragraph 8, and called his attention to ]mragraph 8, which is independent, stands by itself, and is a reference to a certain sdiedtile in which he states tliat the statement is made up from tisheries reports, but adds to that that the facts stated in those reports are true of his own Ivnowledge, substantially. Vpon tluit point I cross-examined liim; and if my learned friend finds anything that modifies paragraph 8 from beginning to end, I would like him to call our attention to it. Certain it is that he cannot make it a part of his case by putting in a statement made by the owner, or in behalf of the owner, by the owner's agent. Mr. Peters: — That is just the very point. I say that tliis whole document from beginning to end does modify the state- ment, the second clause of which sliows that he was stating infornmtion that lie liad received from souie other i)erson, which information, as a matter of fact, Imd been previously put in in the form of a declaration. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Has he not already stated on the stand tliat he was an agent of dif- ferent parties, and that lie collected his information from a number of sources? Mr. Teters: — He has so stated, but my learned friend takes ^o paragraph 8 Mr. Dickinson: — Paragraph 7. Mr. J'eters: — Very well, 7, and alleges now that that is subst-.tntially something tliat lie knows of liis own knowledge. At that time, as a matter of fact, we could have read \h>: whole of it. The matter was stated tliat the whole declaration ration was put l)efore the Oommismoncrs, and Mr. Dickinson at this moment states that that declar:itioii is a statement of Mr. Warren's, on liis own information, and which he believes 50 to be absolutely correct. I will not, however, press the mat- ter upon the Commissioners. 30 60 Neal Moss was called as a witness on the part of (Jreat Britain and duiy sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Bod well: Q. — You are a master mariner, Mr. Moss? A. — Yes. Q. — And live in Victoria? A. — •Yes. Q. — How long have you been sealing? A. — Began about ]871, sir. Q. — What were you doing in tlie year 18S(i? A. — 1 was aboard the schocmer "Favourite." Q. — Wliero did you join tlw Favourite?" A. — In a place on the west coast called Wkidegate, as (y — Wlmt luul ^voii luH'ii doliis; Itvlore tlm(? A. — MiiHti-r (III llu' "Kate." (2. — And ^011 ciiaiigt'd to tlio "Favouriti'" for what rcasou? A. — IJiM-aiiHt' I coiild get no crow for the 'Kuti'." (i.-Did the -Kate" make her voyage to liehring Heu that vear? A. — Xo, sir. (2.— Did .vou >;o to Uehring Wea? A. — Yes, air, I went to Mcliriiig Sea. (l—nn the "Favoinite?" A.— On the "Favourite." 10 t^.— In what (•ai»aci(,v did ,vou go? A. — I went aa a kind (if iiiiiiter. ti. — You mean you did not belong reguhu-ly to the crew? A— Xo, sir. il. — Were you on her all the time that she was in Behriug Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know when she entered the Sea? A. — About tlic (ith or 7th of July. 1 don't remember th€> date, Q. — Did you have at any time any memoranda relating to (liites of which vou will speak in your evidence. A. — Y'es, I -0 liiid them right'along to 1S!»1. »i. — What hajiitened then? A. — I had a schooner by the iiiiiiic of the "Ariel" which got ashore, and I lost all uiy liajL-rs. (i.- That was in 1W)1? A.— 18!H. Q. — You say that you remember about the time that the Favourite" entered the Sea? A. — Yes, about the »ith or 71h (if .Inly. i}. — How hmg did you stay there? A. — As near as I re- iiuiiibcr, to the 15tli of August. ^ ii. — Did the "Favourite" have boats or canoes? A. — Can- oes. t). — How many? A. — Ten and one stern boat. ii. — And what kind of a crew? A. — Indians. (i— How long did you stay in the Sea? A. — As near us I rcinember, until the 15th of August. (i. — How nianv seals did vou get? A. — Well, we had a pretty good cat('h; about 2!til(), I think (i. — Were aou out in the year 1.MX7? A. — Yes, sir. 4° (i. — On what schooner did you go out in the year 1887? A. — The schooner "Kate." Q. — In what capacity? A. — Master. (i. — Did you seal in Hehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — And on the coast? A. — No; didn't seal on the coast? I sci'.led in the sj)ring on the coast. (i.— What time did you enter the Sea In 1887? A.— I think somewhere about the Kttli of 12tli of July. il — When did you leave? A. — The latter part of August. (i. — How many canoes did you have? A. — Ten. 50 Q. — Indian hunters? A. — Indian hunters and two boats, one stern boat, and the other a regular hunter. (J. — How many seals did you get? A. — About 1800; some- wlicre around 1800. Q. — What is your total catch, both the spring catch and the lichiiiig Sea catch? A.— About 2:500. (i- — Over what ground did vou work in 1887? A. — In 1S87? (i- — I mean generally; <"an you tell by looking at the chart? A.— I had a navigator with me. ' "^ ^i. — Had yon any idea youself? A. (Examining chart) — Y'es, lifiiit ahmg h(M'e. (Indicating.) (i- — Can you give that by latitude and longitude? A. — yes. Q.— Do so, theii? A. — lOit.JtO and 5(! and some 15 minutes. Q. — Did you stay in one place all the time? A. — No, sir. •i-— Which way did you go from there? A. — South. iinv oMmt wax? A. — Tin- hint I hcalfd wat* olT Oiiiinlaskn, nlioiit 20 iiiih-H (ilY OnnalaHka. (2. — Hav«' von nii.v rofolh'ction n«>w tiH to wlicrt' ,v«»u wt-rc iu IHHii jjfiu'rall.v; I mean mm to .voiir locaHty in tin- hch? A. — Hoiii('wlu>i'<>H around tlio saino |ila«'i>. That waH Captain Mt'litan'M phut'. (t north and !(>!> west. (J. — (Generally, that Is al»ont tlie point yon make for? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have yon made a eatch generally? A. — Oenerally nnide good catehes. (i. — Now, in 1KK7 do yon r«>menil)er any partieular days, or any particular events that lnip|H>ned with reference to the 20 catch? A. — I had one or two good days; one day I had 1I5(», in August. (i.— In 1887? A.— In 1887. (i. — Do y<»u remembei nny otlier big day . A. — Yes, I had a big day off Ounalaska, the latter part of August. Q. — How large a carch did yon make tliat day? A. — l.'iO. (i. — Do yon remember what was the biggest dav you had iu 188(J? A.— No, sir, I don't remember that. 30 Mi'tr 40 50 60 Cross-Rxaniination by Mr. Warren. (i. — I understand, Mr. Moss, tlnit y<»u were on the "Kate" until you joined tlie "Favourite" in 188«? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you joined the "Favourite" over on tlie west coast? A. — Yes. (I. — At Mr. Spring's trading station? A.- Ti iJing sta- tion, yes, sir. Q. — Do Mr. Spnng and Captain McLean have a trading sta- tion over there? A. — Yes. sir, in them days they did. ii. — The "Kate" was laid up tiuit year? A. — Yes. ij. — Over on the west coast, or was she biouglit back to Victoria? A. — <"aptain Spring brought lit r back to Vic- toria. Q. — Now, is it not a fact tliat she was laid up in 1880, be- cause she had not made nuuiey the year before sealing? A. — Couldn't get a crew for her. Q. — Could you not get a crew in Victoria? A. — Didn't try, sir. Q. — Could you get a crew on the west coast? A. — No. Q. — After he brought her back she didn't do anything? A. — She was around trjuling on the coast. Q. — She didn't go out sealing at all? A. — Not in the sum- mer, no. g.— Not in the f..;i? A.— Or in the fall either, Q.— That wasin lS8(i, was it? A.— In "80. (i. — I suppose she could have been was about 60 tons, iS7 (2.— Wlu'ii wiiH hIk It'ii^Mliciit'd? A.— A loiiK tiiiif j go, ami till' n'KiHici' wtiM iu'v*t allcri'd; the huiik* 41) tuu wiih ou Ikt. Q.— !U'for«> |M.S(J Of after? A— Vch, a long linit> In-fore IMHt!, (i.— Hlie WHH NoM ill IMSJ, an InteroKt in liei-, Ih not that h«? i(ju*'Htion witlMlrawii.) (). — What time ilhl .you Join the "Favourite" on the weHt (oiiMt? A. — Ahoiil June. 10 (2. — Who war the . — IHd you lower your lioatN for Kealiii);? A. — No, sir. Q.— You think you ent.'r«-d the Sea about the (ith or 7tli (»f .Inly? A. — Soinewlu're around there. yeH. Q. — And remained in the Sea until what time? A. — The l.'>tli of AuftuHt, iiH near an I ean remember. 20 (>.— Are you not niistaken about that? A. — I don't think I am miHtaken about it. Q.— Was it not nearer the 30tli? A.— No, sir; not if I remember. (J. — You do not elaini to be imsitive about that date, do you' A. — I ain't positive. Q. — There Ik a claim here about the Favourite, Ih there not, before this Commission? A. — I don't know. sir. Q. — Was there a lop book kept of the "Favourite" that year? A.— I think so. o£ Q.-r>id you see It? A.— See the catcli? (.). — The lop book? A. — No, I didn't see it; I had nothing to do with thi't. Q. — Do you know what date the "Favourite" was warned out? A.— No, T fdiT'ct the date. Q. — Did yon cvor 'i;e of the master, would it not? A. — Yes. I guess, a little; and something about the vessel too. The ca]>tain liad good knowledge about seals. (i. — That would nuike a difference in the results, wouldn't it? A. — I don't know; it all depends on how we come across tlieni. New men can go in there and come across seals as well as men of exju'rience. Q. — la not a man who knows something about their habits better able to judge where to find them? A.— I don't know. Q. — And wlien you say that tx man has the reputation of being one of the best captains in the business wliat do yre they included in tin' 2000? A. — I think they was. 1 ain't sure. (i. — Then you do not know how many skins yon aitnally took on your boats up there that year, do von? .V. — We had 2000 on board. i}. — Then that must have incliuh d those you took from the "Onward"? .\. — Must have bei'u. (i.— We have that fixed that the 2000 included those you took from the "Onward." Is that right? A. — I think so, as near as I can reiiieiiiber. "♦ of then' in tlu> 6i|»riii^;. {^. — When did yo\i ciHiiUK'iK't' Hoaliiin out of tluTe in tin; Hpiiii};? A. — Mairl), ! think, that .year. H. — Wert' you tlicn' in Ftlunary? A. — I niif^ht liavo bcfn llu'iv. I ain't poHitivo. Q.— Well, think ahou( it? A.— I had hcon there in Febru- iiry some years, but I don't know about sealing. <2. — Did yon see (lie "<"arolena" down there that year? 10 A. — I don't reinenibcr seeinji her lliat year on the eoast. Q.— Do yon renreniber Mr. Ahinsie had a tradinfj post there in 1SS(5? A. — Yes, I knew he had some post there. Q. — When was that tradinfi post built? A. — I Uiink the same year' lSS(i. t^. — Early in the year? A. — Kind of teniixtrary jxtst; he wasn't there all the time; only be nj> for the season. I think. ti. — He was there some time in the early part of 1SK(>, was lie not, he or somebody rejiresentin}; him? A. — Yes. sir, (here was somebody thei-e in the seaiinji; season. 20 Q. — Who did you see down thert> representini,' Mr. Munsie in IHSO? A. — 1 don't remember who was tliere that year. Q.— Was there anybody there represent ir.j^ him? A. — Yes, I believe there was somebody looking after tlie store; I didn't call in; all I know they Irad a station. (J. — Were yoti not around near his store? A. — Our sta- tion is about ten miles from there. (.i. — That does not answer the question. I asked yon if you were around his store? A. — \o, sir. (.1 — Did Mr. Munsie send any supjdies down theiH> in l>ve so, I didn't see it. (i. — They had some there, did they not? A. — Yes, sir, (here was some thei'e. ii. — You knew thev were tradinj; w!th the Indians? A. — Yes. (i. — .\nd that they were j!;ivinj;; supplies out for what they received from the Indiiuis? .\. — Yes, sir, the Indians were tradinji there. Q. — And Mr. Sjjrin}; (houffht that that post was in com- IH'tition with his, did he not? A. — I dmi't know anythin}? 40 about that. Q. — There was some talk about it. and that is the way you luipiM'ii to remember, is it not? A. — I don't rememb«'r the talk alxnit that. Q. — What otln'r boats did Mr. Munsie have besides the "Cai'olena" in IS^H? A. — I don't remember, sir, what boat he had. (i. — Do you remember that the "Carolena" was in there in \SX{\'! A. — I remember the "Cai'olena." (i. — Do you rememlK'r that she was at that trading p«)8t in Issi;? A. — Yes, I remember she was there. Q. — AVhat time of the year was she in there? A. — Oh, I don't remember what time of (he year she was (here. Q. — Was it before vou went awav on the "Savward?" A. —Yes il — How hmj,' bef)re? A. — I couldn't tell. About a iiKMidi or .so. in the sjirintJ siie was otf and on there. Q. — In the eariy sprinji? A. — I don't remendK>r what 1 ime. (',0 Q- — ^Yas it in May or before May? .V.— -Mefore ^lay, I fllleNs, Q. — .\nd it was not when she left and went u|) to fSehriii!; Sea on her trip that you speak of? .V.— She called in there before she went to HehrinK' Sea. Q. — .\nd then went ri^jht aloni; u|» to Hehriuf; Sea? .\. — I ilon't rememb'-r whether she went riftht ahniK na" doing up there when she was up there in 18SG? A. — In Behring Hea? Q. — No, there at the trading jjost? A. — I think she was sealing that year in the spring. (J. — Where was she staling? A. — On the coast here. Q. — Was she buying skins of the Indians? A. — Well, I guess he did that too. Q. — And gave them supplies for them? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you know of your own knowledge? A. — Well, that is the way they usualy do — supplies and money. Q. — tTust tell me whether you know of your own knowledge whether the "Carolena" was purchasing skins from the In- dians and giving them supplies in trade for them? A. — They were buying skins, either with money or with supplies. Q. — And you know that yotirself? A. — Yes. Q. — Were vou on board the "Carolena" when she was in there? A.— No. Q.— What boat were you on? A.— On the "Kate." Q. — And went trading in there? A. — No, sir, I was not trading in ther(>; I was sealing. (J. — You were trading at Mr. Spring's place, were you not? A. — I was not trading. Q. — At Mr Spring's post? A. — No, sir. Q. — WImt were you doing in there? A. — I was laying there in the schooner, getting a crew. li.— How far did the "Kate" lie from the "Carolena?" A.— Ten miles between the stations. Q.— Could you see the "Carolena?" A.— No. li. — Now, witness, wlien (ou look the stand vou wen* asked about the catch of the "Favourite" in I88«i? " A.— Yes. Q. — And you said 2,1)(M) to the Commissioners, did you? A. —Yes. about 2.!t()(». Q. — Did you know when you stated that that included a considerable nmnber of skins that you took from off the "On- ward?" A. — Well, I don't know if them skins go iiito the 2,!t(H). Q. — Did not you tell me a little while ago that you did know? A. — I think she had over .'UKIO including tliem. Q. — You want to change your mind about that now, do you? .lust state whether it is your opinion that that 2,000 included the skins off the "Onward" or not? A.— I don't think it did. Q. — I believe you slated that the tonnage of the "Kate" was 40 odd tons; is that right? A. — Sh(> was 40 on the regis- <«'r. but she was 00 tons. She was 40 before she was length- ened, and that was never changed on the register. She was somewhere about 00 tons. Q.— Were you the nmster of her in IS87? A.— Yes. (i. — .\nd you had ten ciiiioes and two boats? One of those was a st<'rii boat? A. — One was a stern boat. ii. — Was that lioat used for sealing purposes all tlie time? A. — Hunting; vcs, sir. ii. — Thai is, wlien the canoes were used? A. — Ten canoes and one Itoat sealing every day. Q. — I asked you if the boat was used whenever the canoes weic used for hunting? .\. — Yes. it was. Q. — So tliat \ou had eleven boats out all the tinu'? A. — All boats all the time. Q — You went in thcie about the 10th of .luly? .\. — Some wiiere about the first part of .luly, 1 think tlu' llth. 341 Q. — And you loft wlmt date in AugiiH*? A. — Tho latter part of August. Q. — Fix tlic da(«' in An.nnst, 1SS7, wlicn yon left? A.— Sonn'wluTe about tlie 20tli or 24th or iiStli; Honicwln'ro around tht'i-e. Q.— Is it nearer the 2()tli than the 30th? A.— About the iTitli, 1 think. (i. — Was the Healing season over when j'ou left? A. — No, I don't think it was. 10 Q. — Why did you leave? A. — lieoause I saw some sohoon- « rs petting seiz) d. Q. — What sehooner did you see getting seized? A. — The "Alfred Adams." (i.— What date did you see tlie "Alfred Adams" getting jicized? A. — I dim't remember the date, sir. Q. — Did vou leave right after vou saw her being seized? A.— Xo. Q. — How many days after? A. — Well, it must have been a week or more after that. 20 Q.— Y(ni hft about a we«'k after the "Alfred Adams" was seized? A. — Somewhere around there, yes. Q. — Was it two weeks after? A. — Well, I don't remem- ber. (i. — If she was seized on the 10th of August, you think yon left about ten days after that? A. — Yes, sir, somewhere around there. Q. — Did vou see the litth' "Triumph" in the sea that vear 18S7? A.— Whieh one? Q.— The little "Triumph"? A.— \o. The Commissioner on the part of the Fnited States: — Is that the name of the vessel, Mr. Warren? Mr. Warren: — Theie are two "Triumphs." and to distin- guish them they eall one the litth' "Triumph." The Commissioner on the part of the L'nited States: — It Is not a imrt of her name. Mr. \\'arren: — Xo, your Honour. Q. — Your eatch in the vear 1887 was how manv? A. — About '^ IHOO or so. 00. (i. — Have vou got anv memorandum book to sliow tliat? A.— Xo. Q. — Have you se^n any memorandum book since the "Ari- :'l" was lost in IS!)!? A. — Xo, I have not. (i.— Was your memory refreshed as to these figures by any papers? A. — I lost my books. (i.— I did not ask yoii that; I asked you if your nu-mory (X) had 1m'( n refreshed by any memorandum since IS'.tl? .\.— No, I don't remember. (J. — When was your attenticm last called to the fact that llu' catch was l,8(io in IJehring Sea in 1887? A.— 1 remem- bered that. (i. — When did you last see it on your memorandum? .\. — Saw it in 1801 when I had my books. Q. — .\nd you have not seen anv reference to i( since? A. -Xo. I, (1 1) ■ i n m PP T !' «lllMtMi< 342 Q.— Did you look it n]> in 1S!H? A.— Well, I could not l'"lp seeing it, seeing ni.v bo(tk every dsiy. (i. — Did .von see evervthinK in tlie book evei-y day? A. — Well, whenever I looked at it. Q. — Did you look at it in 18!H? A. — Onee in a while, yes. Q. — AVhat oeeasion did you have for looking at !he catch of the "Kate" for 1891? 'a.— I was seeing the catches for every season — looking over. (■i. — Did you make a report to the British ('ounnissioners 10 that the "Kate" did not go into the Behring Sea in 18S7? A.— What is that, sir? Q. — I asked you if you made a i-epoi-t to the British f'om- missioners that were here in 1891 that the "Kate'' did not go into Behring Sea in 18S7? A.— She did go in. Q. — I asked you if you made a reitort or statement to any- body in 1891 that the "Kate" did not go into the Behring Sea in 1887? A. — I don't understand you. Mr. Bodwell: — Ask him if he knows who the British Oom- 20 missioners are. I don't believe he knows there are any such people. The Commissioner on the part of the Tn? A. — Yes. (i-— \Nh!)t boat were you on in l'8!)0? A.— On the ".\riel." il. — And you had the book then? A. — Yes. il. — Did you loctk at it eviy year? A. — Well, I generally looked at it once in a while. Q.— Did you take it out any year between 1887 and 1891? A . — Ye.s. Q.— Did yoti look at it in 1891? A.— Yes. Q. — You remember lo(»king at it in 1891? A. — I must have 60 looked at it because it was right there. Q. — Do you remember looking at it? A. — Yes, lots of times. (i. — Do von remember looking at tlu' catch of the "Kate" as stated there in 1891? A.— Yes. Q. — Was tli(> book in the "Ariel" when she sank? A. — Yes, Q. — Was the book in the locker of the ".Vriel" when she sank? A. — Yes. Q. — Did y(ni look there after she was raised? A. — Yt's. 343 Q. — Did yon find the book? A. — No. the piijierw were all wet and destroyed wluitever tlu-re wuh in there. (i. — Yon Kii.v in 1HS7 .vxainined on this point? Mr. Bodwell: — My learned friend has examined him as to his recollection of the fijinres of the catch (>ach year. The wit- ness has jnst said that he was paid so ninch per month and so much per skin. His livinjj; depended on how many skins lie caught, to a certain extent, and that is a very {j;ood reason why he should know how many skins he took. To the witness: — Q. — How many skins did yon get in the stern boat in 1880? The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Is not that a new matter? .Mr. Rodwell: — I do not think so. The Commissioner on the pai-t of the United States: — The examination of this witness has been extremely lentjtliy al- ready. 30 Mr. Hodwell: — Not on my part. 40 The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It has been i)retty long on both sides, I may sjiy. I believe I his is a new matter as to what the stern boat caught. Mr. Bodwell; — Q. — Do yon remember how many skins yon got in the stern boat? A. — 1 got about 70. Q. — Do you remember the total catch of the "Favourite" or the total number of skins she bnnight back to Vittoria in 18,s«? The Ccmmiissiimer on the part of the United States: — Has lie not told that three times? Mr. Hodwell: — It was brought out in the examination that the "Onward" transft'iicd skins from the 'Favourite" and I ask him now if he remembei's how m.nny skins tiie "Favoui- ile" brought back, to this port at the end of the season and delivered in Victoria. That I submit yonr H(»nonr is a jx-r fial issue we have gut to try out here a sub- •irdinat*' issue ns to how mneh this vessel caught that year ■',■ 'I'.li vi ! i 344 in tlic It(>lii-iiiK Sea. Wluil I hii.v with ivfcn'nc*' to tliiH wit- lU'Hs will also ai>l»ly to «»tli«'i' witiicNsos. You have had xev- t'l'al witiu'HBOH like liiin Ix'forc Mr. liodwcll: — May it ph-asc .vour Honour, the nuittor piv- st'Hts itself to me in tliis way — Tho Couuuissicmor on tho jmrt of the United Mtati's: — I simply call your attention to thin, hut of (•(►ursc you can fjo on and examine the witiiess. When you luive finished with lO liim. can you imapne that his testimony could alfect the minds of the Commissionera a {treat deal? Mr. Kodwell: — The cross-examination has attempted to l)rove that the memory of the witness must l)e wroufj from the simple fact tliat the "Onward" transferred certain skins from the "Favourite" in tlie liehi-iufc Sea. There is a rellec- titm on the credibility of the wltn<'ss and I am now examiniufj him on a uuitter which was tirou{>:ht out in cross-examination. The Commissioner on the part of the United Htates: — So 20 far as I am concerned you may proceed. I am s])cakin{j more with resjard to future examinatiims than to this one. By Mr. Hodwell: Q. — Do you know the number of skins l)rou}ilit back and delivered l)y the "Favouiite" at the port of Victoria at the end of the s«'ason? A. — I do not remember. Q. — Wlint was the name of tlu' tradinj; jjost wlu-re you were stati(med and that you were examined about? A. — 30 Kyoqnot. ;et them? \. — I can i;et them later on. Mr. Warren: — Your rionours, we propose to jiostjione the cross examination of this witness unlil we get the Itooks. 10 20 30 40 JO 345 RoluM-t JiiincH Kci' wiiH nillcd »n ii witneHM on bi'lialf of llcr Miijcsty nnd duly »w»)rn. Examination b.v Mr. IVters: Q. — Mr. Ker, you reside in Victoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What is the name of the firm you are with? A. — R 1'. liitliet & Co., Ltd. Q. — Are they a joint stoeli company? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — A larfje institution, I believe? A. — Yos. Q. — And connected larjjely wltli sealing? matters? A. — Yes. (J. — And they have beene in that business for a number of years? A.— Yes. since 1H>i7 and ISSS. Q. — In what capacity are you employed there? A. — I am the tn-asurer of (he company at i)resent. (i. — And have a knowledge of all their business transac- tions? A. — Yes, sir. il. — And a particular knowled}j;e of the sealinj^ transac- lions, I believe? A. — Yes. Q. — I will briufi; you to the point: Do they own nmonj^st others a scluxmer called the "Maggie Mac''? A. — ^Ve acted as agents for her. Q. — She was engaged in sealing? A. — Yes. (i. — And also the "Annie Seymour"'? A. — Yes. Q. — I believe these two schooners were fitted out in the year 1887? A.— In 1888 I think was the first yeai-. (J. — Those are two schooners that vou fitted out that year? A.— Yes. Q. — The tonnage of the "Maggie Mac" is what? A. — 70 Ions. Q. — And she carries how many men? A. — 2ti men. Q. — What is the tonnage of the "Annie Seymour?" A. — 1 1:{ tons. (i. — And she carries 23 of a crew? A. — Yes. (.}. — Have you made out from your books a correct state- (i. — What is the tonnage of the "Annie Seymour" and the "Maggie Mac"? A. — Yes, I have. Q. — Showing year by year what the cost of ammunition, outfit, provisions, advances to crew, insurance, labour, sun- dries and wages are? A. — Yes, sir. ti- — I'nder separate headings? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Can you produce that to the court? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And I believe you havt> the actual vcmchers if requir- ed? A. — Yes, I could not siiy for all. We have all of the "Maggie JIac"; every voucher. Q. — Is there any j»ractical difference or is there much dif- ference in fitting out these vessels in 18S7 or 188(! and 18S»? -V. — I do not think so — I do not th'nk there is much difl'er- Mr. IV'ters: — Without going thiough Ihis because It will lake a length of time. 1 projiose if niy le.'irned friend consents 10 go through (his s(aten\en( generally and then put it in as 11 whole. ^Ir. Dickinson: — We cerfainly object (o showing (he ou(rtt of l!ic "Carolena" in (his way and we objei ( further llui( you tiiiiii()( mIiow the outfil of even these ships by a statement of tills kind or by this wiiness. Mr. Peters: — I do not wish to go into any very great d<>tail. I took by chance two vessels which were fair example's of wliat i( would cost to outfit. We are in (he position, as has tieen alicady stated, with regard to the "Carolena," that on iiccount of circumstances over which we have no control the iiint(er has been allowed to drift for 10 years. The possibil- ity of getting evidence to prove the case as clearly as we would like (o jn-ove it does not now exist and w«' hav«' got to i* !i Si'!' • ill ii'h; m Hi . n m iiiii '.'- ■ ' I '!:)■ Pi ill -■'•'■' '■'' j m mi m lit'ii i; i !f|!|fF *(|t(nU lO 20 346 Ao the bo8t we can under the t ircninstanci'H. I cannot 8O0 tliat ni.v learned friend can fairl.v ters:— I take the "Manfjie Mac" for tlie .years IHHit. IHH!) and IWH and the "Annie S«'.vniour" for tlie same three j'ears. There are three .years for each. The t^ommissioner on the jMirt of the I'nited States : — How long did it take ns to go through the youchers of the "Car- olena" herself? Mr. Peters: — I do not know as to that .your Honour. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — And has not the opposite side a right to enter into the details of every one of these yonchers for each ship and foi* each .year? Mr. Peters: — Sujipose it does hai)pen that in order to proye our case there should be a length.y cross-examination — and if in.y learned friend thinks he can get an.y thing out of it that ma.y become necessary — is that an.v reason wli.y we should not be allo\ved to present our case as be.st we can? The Commissioner on the part of Her Majest.y: — It seems to 30 me that where yon go oft" from a particular case, the usual course is to ask tlu' person who is proyt'ii to liaye the know- ledge, general questions as to the cost, or as to the matter that he is sought to be interrogated uiioii. Then, of course, it is open to cross-examine the witness upon that. That course is usuall.y adopted in order to prevent wandering into particulars that are onl.y relevant, if at all, in the general. It is frequently the case that witnesses who have the know- ledge are asked for the general results of their knowledge, and it is competent testimon.v. It is not usual, however, to 4 descend to all kinds of particulars respecting it, and for the reason, that you may get into endless enciuiries which might lead you away from the jiarticular question at issue. Mr. Peters: — For that reason I had this statem«'nt made out in a short form and it in reality amounts to that very same conclusion. I might ask this witness what it cost for ammunition for a vessel of so many tons, and by looking at this statement he could give me the answer. I thought it the more reasonable course to have made up a statement 50 showing from year to .year what these supjilies cost and tak- ing each vessel for three .years. This, I believ«', would short- en time and it was for that purpose that I did it. If I go into details on this statement it wiil only ani<»uiit to the witness answering n;.v questions from tlie information which he has gathered in this document. Mr. Dickinson: — The learned Counsel has stated that he did not think that the Counsel for tlu' United Stats could fairly object to this testimony. 1 beg to say that the testi- 60 mony in this case is to lie ]»rinted, as I understand it, and will circulate in book form. I cannot permit this record to be made into hi.storv and circulated among jicople interested in this case — in my own country at least — I cannot allow this class of testimony to go In without recording my objection and my protest. My learned friend says that 10 y(>ars have elajised and therfore he must get secondary testimony or must be in the position of a party \yhose testimony has been destro.ved. We 10 34; liiivo no objt'otiou to IiIh m'ttiiig tlii' bost tostiinony availublu but he has doix; tliat already. llt> hau had the owner of thiM Hhip the (Jai-olena on the stand and the <»wner has testi- lled that lie has >{ot eltliei' the ori);inal or a dnplieate eojiy of every voucher for every dollar's worth of supplies that went on board that ship. The owner of the ship lias admitted and has testified that he is fully able to, and that he is un- embarrassed, in showinj? a v<»Heher for the last morsel of sup- plies and the last shingle that went on the Carolena. Now it is proposed to corroborate the testimony of Mr. Muiisie the owner and of Mr. Heehtel by putting in an account of what some other concern furnishes its ships with, and by giving details over again as to how certain other ships are furnished. Then we are asked to compare that ship with her tonnage and her equipment of men with the ship now before the Court. We are asked to take another rule of general average such as is being applie length of tli<> ri'oHH-cxaniination siioiild not Ik* pciinittcd to w(>i);h a^ainHt its ndniiHHion. The ConuniMMiouor on the part of the Tnitcd StatcN; — Von know iMTfcctly well, Mr. I't'toiK, that, aH a inle, the CourtH i'efnNi> to try wuliordinate isHtics, and chiellv on the ^jronnd that they would run out to great lenpth. The ConiniiHsioner on the part of Her Majewty: — I think we are of the opinion that the paper cannot be received. Mr. I'eterB: — 1 nnderKtand I cannot put in the paper as a whole, except by conBent. The Commissioner on the pa?'t of tbe I'nited States: — Th • objection is not taken to th*' form merely Mr. Peters: 2° nnderstand? -The objection is taken to the substance, do I Mr. Dickinson: — I ol)ject to all this testimony, substantial- Mr. Peters:— Take for instance tlio item of ammunition. Po the t'ommisioneis rule that I am noi at liberty to ask what the ammunition for the "Mapmie Mac" cost in the years 1889, 18!K) and 18i>l. The (Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — As at pres- 30 ont advised my impression is that you could ask what would be a reasonable cost f(»r sujiplyinf; ammunitiim of this par- ticular sort in 188tJ and 18S7. and then if you lay the founda- tion for it, provinf? that it would be the same in 18Si»; or at all events that the witness would ahv an opinion as to his knowledpe in isst;, as to his knovvledRe in 1887, and as to his knowledn<' of what was a reasonable cost of supplies in 1S8!>. That is the way it stands as it appears to me at present. It occurs to me that on the objection you could not f?o through even the proof of what would be the cost of snj^jdying a ves- 40 sel like the "Carolena" with supplies of a certain sort in the year 1880, that is the view of the objection I take. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — 1 have not heard what Counsel for the United Stjiites has to say about it but my impiessiou is to agree with my learned brother under certain qualitications. My present o])inion is that you should call j)erson8 here who are in the habit of fitting out sealing ves.sels in 1S8(» and ask them the simple (juestion: What would be the reasonable cost of the outfit of a vessel of 50 27 tons and a ciew of so many men, for sealing in Kehring Sea in 188G. That I believe would be within the scop«' of what the Tr«aty allows us to do altlMtiigh not even that might be allowed within the ordinary rules of evidence. The qnalifications I would make would be these, and I think my learned brother would agree with me — I say this, subject to hearing what counsel for the Cnited States have to say iiboul it — the(iualificati(m I make is that there should be but the one general question touching the entire outfit for a vessel of this class for 188(J. That is a reasonable outfit. You should 60 not be compelled on your part to go into details, although of course on cross-examination counsel may go into details. We should not sit here to hear details with reference to mat- ters of this kind? Mr. Dickinson: — Except with regard to the vessel nnder consideration. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Yes, and if we believed in the <'omi>et(>ncy of the witness to answer the lO 20 349 ^fiu-i'til (|iifHli(iii, llitil JH ii(1«M]nal(> ('\ iih'iicc, iiiid iiiiK'hm it Ih iilliula'd il HliiiulH iiH pivdv sIioiik cvidfiu'c. It Hhould he provt'ii, of coiirst', tlitit III*' wiliirMH Idih the r(M|uiHitu know- ledge :iiid iiifoi'iiDitioii on tlie Huhjet-t. I am nierelv t'X])i'«-H- sing an otl-ltiind o|>ini<)n, Hnlijeet. as I Kaid Itefoiv, to ehauging 1IIV mind upon the matter after conHideration. The CommlBsicmer on the imrt of the I'nited States: — I may add. that so far an we have Iieard yet, this witness does not a|>|ieai- to be <|ualiti(d in the matter. Mr. Diekinson: — I am also about to make an objectiou iu lliat respect. •Mr. Peters: — This witness may show himself nil through I he examination to be thoroughly competent on the details of the matter. However, having regard to the statement mad« !>v the t'ommissioneis I do not prtipose to examine this wit- iKsw any further. I (aoiose to let this matter drop so far as* this witness is contei lu-d and to withdraw this document. I lo not wish to impress upon th«> ('ommissioners evidence w'lich they do not think necessary and perhaps in admiss- ib.e. We shall attempt to ja-ove this in another form. There is one matter still pending before the Commission- cis. and before we cIosj' this case, as we intend to now, we v.oald like to halve the opinion of the Commissioners on the ]ioiiit I refer to. That is with regard to the documentary evidence tendered by us from the case of the I'nited States. The Commissionei' on the jmrt of Iler Majesty: — Does the 30 case refer to these athdavits in any way, and if so iu what way. Mr. IV'ters: — It refers to them distinctly, and iu some in- stances recites them The Commissioner on tip part of Her Majesty: — In what way does the case refer to tlie aftidavlts? .Mr. IVters: — I will take one example and read one passage frian tlie case which I have already read In tore. ■^^ "The herd spreads along the coast in a loii^', irregular b«»dy, generally advancing nortliward until they begin to enter Iteliring Sea," etc. Tiiere you will tind a reference marked tigure three in small tigures. and that refers to a statement made by Charles •1. llaig. It is the same with regard to several of the atti- davits I have r('ferri- on the jMirt of tlic riiKcd RtalcH: — I mil not Nine tli<',v iii'«> not iidiiiiHNibIc, iiltlioii^li iii,v iiiiiitl Iiniiih ftroiiKly to tlu> Hiilf 'IdiI tlit'.v iir<> not iitliiiiHHiltU', mid for tin' rt'iisoiiM I HUfj^t'stt'd tlu* otlitT day. Tlio conclusion Wf have c«niu' to \h tliat on the wliolc, we niiiHt let tlicHo affldnvitH go in d(> ))«'nc cHHc; tlic qucHtion of tlicii' adniiHMiliility to lit> left to final arKunu'ut. The ConuiilHsUMM'i' on the imrf of Hit Maji'sty: — I nicfidy wish to add one word and that in to «'ni]ihaHi/.t> the obwrvu- tion <»f my k'arncd brotlior. My frame of mind i« Hlinply one of doiiht aH to whether thlH may not lie iidmiNHihlt'; not feel- \\m that it is admisHihle I have a fii-lin^ of doiilit iih to whether it may not l)e. and whether it may not Ih> the Riibject of a H(>rioiiH art;iiiiient Iiy coiiiiHel. I nu'rely wish to leave my own mind open to consider the mat- ter wiien 1 have further light ujion it. Mr. Peters: — Then 1 tdiall proceed. 20 The (VimmiHHioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I presiime that it in not nect-sHary to make an exhibit of tlieHe, becanse they are in a published dociimeut that is as exact as our own records. Mr. Peters: — These are so sliort that tliey may be taken down by the short hand rep«)rter. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not know ns the t< xt has anything to it. The case refers to the fact, "Tiiat die males pass much further from tlie shore than the females, and travel more 3*^ rapidly towards the islands." Then comes a note, figure 2, and tlie altidavit is a long one on that subject. The Tnited Htates case cites this note as to what might jHissibly be said as to the migration of females. Is it jiossible that an aflfl- davit. without any otlier matter that may be in it, can be read for all purposes as evidence, simply liecanse of a statement in the text. Does one bald statement in the text on (me sub- ject, set the extract down as an authority? The (Vmimissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — It must 40 have a direct bearing on tluit, which is said to liave sH<> Hfiid.v tif tlw ilciiixi'iis of llu> Mi'ii, iii«-lii(liuK m'uIh, and till- modi- of I'tiptiirinK 1h*-iii." Tlifii lie mii.vh: "N'nii'l.v nil would loNi' iiHiniy if llir limiting wiih <'oiiflii<>il lo lli*> I'liritit' ot'ciiii, Itiit IIm'.v dt>|M-iid on III*' Iti'liriu}; Kt'ii rali'li wluTf till* hciiIn iu'i' more |il<>n(iful and occupy a more liniilcd Hpacf aH a feeding );r«Miiid." Tiicii at pa^c '.W.\ lie Ha.vH: lo "Wlicn they arrive at HcIiHiik Sea. later in tlie Neason tliey Htai't to worl\ ill eaincHt. Tlie water Ih full of tliein, and you (iin lieav tlieni tiring all around. Tlie veKNels enter the Hca aliont .Inly, hut u<"t the numt of the hcuIm in AujuiHt or early Sc|ilcnilier. when the weatlier jjelH hud. hut they UHually have a piod cat of the I'liited States. It is a letter from C. M. Lampsou & i\>. to <'. A. Williams. Mr. Dickinson: — I cannot iM'riiiit lliis to he continued with- out raisinjj a (|uesti ::i Im !l ! i ( ] 1 1 ! fit --3 Hi', 111 m ill Mm iitite# J.-)- m-ii: , 30 wliicli wdiihl not miit tlu* coiniiscl in tlic tasc. In many rt^ HK'ctH, if lie is ;i }>;(um1 witnoss and an lioncst man, lu- niiKlit diffor from tlii' case of tlic Tnitcd States. How could liis evidence' be bindin}; on the I'nited Slates? It is a novel pro- l)osilion to bind Ihe I'liiled States b.v an allidavit, as an ad- mission on their part simply, because a witness used it on tluir side. The analofr.v is perfect wlien I say that we mif^ht as well bind each fjovei'umcnt in this case by the evidence of whatever witnesses they broujjht fcn-ward, or by wliat is 10 contained in any document i)roduced by them? Mr. IVters: — This reference is e.\))ressly set out in the case word for word. I have already lead it without objection. Mr. Dickinson: — How did we know what you were ffoinf; to read, and how do we know wliether we will object to it or not until we hear it. Do not criti, and there is nothing; i)rovided in IIkiu as to Ihe nature of tiie evidence that should be olTered. P.ni liere. we are bound lo lake eiliier oral testimony or to deip;iiid siiitalilc and autiienlic evidence. We are not at all 40 SO 60 353 in Uu' posilion that llic raris Tribunal was in tliat ivspcct. \\'«' art' not comiK'Hcd to talvo ailidavits. W'v ai-f here witli all tlic apitnrtenanei's of an ordinary lonrt of law. I do not mean to sa.y that "snitablc, authentic testimony" means exactly the evid* nee that is admissible by the stiiVt rules of Common Law. We have not i»roeeeded on tiiat theory, and probably ncuie <»i us would ajrree to that tlieory. I repeat that we are not in the position of these Tribunals who have been compelled to t.ike atlidavits. We all know as 10 practical lawyers, how relatively worthless some of these orifjinal allidavilK are. For my own part I would rather Imve a letter than an allidavit, because the letter is the natural lan^uafje of the person writiuf; it; wliile ailidavits, like thesis attested here, are drawn nj* formally and stitlly by others and are then sij;ned by those who make them. They have al- ways been rejected by all courts except in the early stajjes of I lie proceedings, and in cases where tliey have been compelled to receive tliem. In cases for a preliminary injunction we are com)i.'l!"d to accept aflidavits. but tr<'t rid Of them as soon 20 as we can. Nobody ever heard that atlidavits c early stages of the case. My own views on this n»att«'r run stroufily in that line. I understand that Judge King has no decided view about it, except that t'xju-esed by him, namely, lluit it minht turn out, uimui further investigation, that these ailidavits were adnussible. Where there has been any doubt (in an issue raised, we have reserved it, because we are feel- inj; our way to a certain extent. We have been compelled to reserve a decision ujion fjrave mattei's, and more than that oj under the constitution of this commission — as I think counsel will understand — if eillier < 'ommissionei' t'cls that he is to jret lifilit from certain jii'oof the other Ccmmissioncr is not in a position to deny liim (he beuetil of lliat lijrlit. Tiiat is the posi- tion of things. 1 feel that I ouglil to make these remarks, and I address tliem to counsel to a certain extent. While the • '(iMiniissionei's fet 1 liiat they are bound to let tiiis evidence in now. and I'eserve it for future consideration, yet tlu> <"om- missioners cannot tell how wide the door thus opened will be availed of for the i>utting in of sjieculative evidence, which '^^ should not be adduced. If the case is opened to thes(> r.iti- (lavils for one side, even de bene esse, it is o])en for both sides. I mak>' tliese remaiks rather for the consideration of counsel, because counsel on both sides must know, of how little value this class of evidence is, when we have witnesses here to ])rove jiractically the sanu' issues. I do it with a \U'\\ of urging <-ounsel to consult among th-mselves, and if this kind of evidence is to go in, to relieve the rommisioners from as much of it as jiossible. 5'J .Mr. Peters :--I shall give to .Mr. Dickinson the citations which I lu-opose to lay liefore the Commissioners. Tliat may save a good deal of troulile, because when he s<'es them he may noi rai.se objection to them. I shall do that this even- ing. Tlic Commissioners then rose. Ml". I lO 30 40 50 (X) 354 OommiBsioners uider the Oonvention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britaii and the United States of America- Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 10, 1896. At lO:.'?) the Coininissioiu'rs took their seats. Ml'. P'ters: — May it pleaso your Hononrs; there is a wit- ness '.ctiiied Cotsford who lias l)eeii luentioned several times ill lie course of tliese i»roeeedinjj;a I understand tliat Mr. ' otsford is at some distant jtlace l)ut we are in lio]ies to lie alile to tfet him. Tliere is a possibility of his lieiiifj obtained, and before closinj; this case 1 wish to reserve my rifjht to ex- iiiiiiie him if we can get him. The Commissioner on the part of the I'liited Slates: — On what point do you wish to take his testimony, Mr. Peters? Mr. Peters: — He was one of the hunters employed and I wish to examine him In rejiard to his experience as a hunter; to show the (|iiaiitity of seals iMtually around when the '<'aro- lena" was seized, and also t'le aiialtility of the crew as to huntin ('oinuiisiom'r on the part of the Uuitod States: — Any tiuio. It is a iiKTi' luatttT of convi'nieni'e any way. Mr. IVtei'H: — Tlu-ro is oiu' docuiucnt more wliirh I would like to rt'tVr to and ]>ut in as ovidcncc. It is contained in a icptut of the t'oiu'iiiltcc ;e on real <'state in the years 1SS(5 and 1SS7? A. — On city projjeriy or on farm land? There is a ditference in the rates. (.). — (live us both? A. — Well, on a ptod loan in N'ictoria or Xew Westminster (he first mortfrape would be 8 i)er cent, and on farm loans it would vary from s per cent, to 1(1 per tent. Q. — Did you loan money on personal security without the 20 collateral of rcii! estate? A. — Yes. Q.— At that (ime? A.— Yes. Q. — What was (he usual rate of interest upon a loan to a man of ordinary during the last three years. Q.— To what extent have they dropjied in the last three years? A. — I'robably they have dropped (o six and one-half pel' cent on first class security on (rood mortjjafrc and a large marjjrin. There was probably one and one lialf i)er cent, re- duction. (i. — Tliat has only taken jdace within the last few years? \. — Within the last rliree or four years. Q. — Let me put a case to you. Supose you had a loan oil'ered to you o\\ city )»roper(y, and supixtse you had the cash valii!'ti(m of your valuator, and the Jiorrower wished to j;et two thirds of (he valuation by way of an advance, what would be the ordinary rate of interest? A. — .\t what time? (.}. — Now? A. — Oil. well, our r.ite would not be under eijiht jter cent. When I «ay (lie rate has dropited to six and one half ])i*r I'ent.. that is for tirst ilass Hccui'ity. 50 ii. — Do you still loan money on (hat class of security? A. — Oh. ves. 0— To anv ex(en( > A.— Yes Q. — I do no( icmember whediei' I asked yon abou( (lie I'atc (in promissory notes, a jiersonal loan unsecured by real estate at iireseiit? A. — It would not be under 12 |)er cent. (i.--N'ow, did you know Mr. Miinsie in (hese years. 188(» and ISS". A.^Yes, I have known him many years. (-1. — l>id you know his tiniiuvv.il sl:imliii;i',' A. — U'ell. pel- sonally, I lu'vv ,)^\v:i\s iniisiiJ/Tcd his financial stiinfliufi very 60 b'liili. (2.— WIci! ! »\aiii 1(1 ask you is (liis- What is (he rale \vliicli a man .tl' liis financial s(andinu at lliat time would have to pay foi- a lojin of money unsecured b\ real estate nKPrlfjfaji'e. or other lollaleral security? .Mr. IHckinsdii: -Ol' itiiirse that would not be the rule of damages. If llie rule of damages is interest, I submit, may 40 ID 20 357 it please .vonr Honours, tliat the staiidiiif; of a iiii'.ii wht'lhiT he is worthless or not, eiits no fiffure. Mr. Itodwel': — What I want to prove by this witness \h: I do not Icnow whetluT I hiid my foundation exactly or not — wliat would be the rate of interest a man of his financial slandiiifj — not (his particular individual but a man of his fieneial repute and financial standinjj; — what wouhl l)e the iiite of interest he would have to pay if he wanted to tfet money to supply the jdacv of the loss which had occurred to him by reason of this seizure? The ("onimissioiier on the part of the T'nil''d States: — Why do you not put it ir. a general way? Tha. would meet the objection of the '.ounsel of the I'nited States. Jfr. r.odwell: — 1 would, if I knew exactly what the point raised was. Jlr. Dickinson: — The point is, that if you are entitled to interest at all — and we will have sonvethinf; to say tui that later — then the way to provt> interest is to jtrove the current rat(!. You cannot ;;«) into sjiecifie instances and say what one man would i)ay and what another would pay. You have to take the fact as concluded, that the nmn for whom you seek dannig»'S by way of interest could have borrow«'d tli<> mimey. You cannot ro into the s|)ecia! circumstances and say tJiat he was of such linancial stany at five per cent., and that because of his financial standing he had io pay twelve ]»er cent., neither can you show that because of his good financial standing he got llie money cheaper. Mr. Bodwel): — That is exactly the position that I thought I ]ilaced myself in. I wish (o prove generally what class of individuals Mr. Munsie belongs to. and here is a witness who liiiows: He knows the standing which Mi-. Munsie had in financial circles. "^J'lien tlie tpiestion I proposed tft ask was: What a man of that financial standing would have to i)ay in interest for an advance of moncA ? Mr. Dickinson — That we submit is immaterial. Mr. Hodwell: — If i]ie ('onimissioners think that (pu'sfion should not be answered. I will ask another. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — You had Ix'fter put if in a general way I think. It is not necessary for you Io sliow that Mr. .Munsie was in good financial stand- ing and Dial he would get a lower rale of interest than one 50 wliose standing was not so irood. When yon prove that he was of excelleni financial standing you bring him up Io I he average or abovi' it. and you bring him into the class of per- sons who could borrow at current rales. If yon get the cur- lent rates, you would (troliably ger all you are entillcd Io. K.xaniiimtion resuuu'd bv Mr. Hodwell- 30 40 (To witness.) Q.--What was ilic current rale of interest al whicli a man of good financial slanding could bori'ow '10 niiuiev and on personal s<'iurily. in ISSli and 1SS7. wilhoiit < ollaleral? .V. — It would nol be under twelve jier ceul. Q. — And that rate conlinued down to what time? .\. — It is tli(> prevailing rate to day. f'ross-examinatioTj l>y Mr. Dickinson* (i— Doynu mean if is ihe prevailing rnte wilh yen? .\. — Willi our company. Md'ir , i; 1 358 Q— Do yon incau it is llio pr«'vailii)},' i-att" in the bniilcM of (h'liosit? A. — 1 lliiiik possibly llu'ir riitc in low«'r. ti. — You (hiiil< it jtossiblt' that in l.SSU tlio rate was lower in (he ban];s of (h'poHit, was it not? A. — It may have bi'cn a Hiiade lower. Q- — Von are not familiar with anything except the rates charKcd by your own institution? A.— Not very familiar, no. Q. — And your institution was a land investment agoney? I o A . — Yes. (2-— And stion. Q. — It was on>' of the ]uincipal ind'istri<'9 of Victoria? A. ^'^ — I am aware there was a very large amount of money in- vested in it. Q. — And sales were made of the catch m the Fall? A. — I presume so.but our business did not bring us in touch with that particular branch. Q. — You never vere in touch with that ])artlai't oj" Tier Afajesty: — Do you mean, before saying what time you would need for adjourn nient? Mr. Dickinson: — Oil, no. We would not need longer than a (hiy, and if your Honours prefer to restrict us to a briefer time, we will endeavor to commence to-day. The Commissioner on tlie ]iart of the United States: — We have to follow your judgnient in tliis matter. Do you Ihink you could resiuue at luilf past two? Mr. Dickinson; — I hardly think we could. Your Honour. The Commissioner on tlu' part of Her Majesty: — I'elter say in the morning. Ml'. Di(kiiison: — Very well. Your Honoiir. I could pro <»'ed now with s«»nie documentary ])roof so as to save time. The t.'ommissiiitK'i' lui (he ]»ai'( me :isk further, Mr. i'elers. will if the I'nited Slates:— D<'l i)U lie reaily to go on with 3S> (lie next i-asc as mww »» llie rniti'd Htatos cloHf their case. harriiifT .vour rebuttal evidence. Mf. J'eters:— AVe do not linow. Tliere may be lebnllal < vidence. Tlie ConinilHsioner on (lie ]»art of (lie I'nited States: — Is Diere any difliculty in having your witnesHes in attendance? Mr. Peters: — We will net all the witnesses we can, bat 10 jasl at the jiresent time, not havinp; a clear idea as to what Ihe nature of their e\idence may be. I can hardly make a statement. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — I do not mean your rebuttal witnesses, but the witnesses in the next case. Mr. Peters: — Oh, yes. The (Jonnnissioner on the part of the T'nitcd States: — Mr. ,Q Dickinson, you say you have sonu' jiroofs you can put in now? Mr. Dickinson: — Yes, Your Honour and it would save time in the nn>rnin};. 30 40 THE f'.\SE OF THE UNITED STATES IX ANSWER TO THE CASE OF HEK MAJESTY. Mr. Dickinson; — In connection with what my learned friend has put in, I now propose to read Sir ('. H. Tapper:— The time to do that was when we put ours in. Mr. Peters: — Mr. J)ickiiisou, if you will excuse me a mo- ment. Before my learned friend reads that. I wish with- out arsunu'ut, to take an objection to my learned friend read- ing' as evidence on his own side, any statement made in the .\niericiin case or in the apjtendix to the American case. My learned friend is at liberty, if he can do so, and as far as I iini concerned, to ase any jiart of the P.ritish case as against ('reat Uritain; but 1 submit that under no ruie of law or evi- dence can he use a statement nmde by the Americ;;n (tov- erunient in supi»ort of their case. The statements he now proposes to read cannot I humbly submit, be put in for the purjiose lie intends because it does not in any resju-ct ()ualify tile other statements. It is a statement of a distinct and sei»iii;ite nature, not (jualityinfr what has been already i)ut in. I snliinit that lie cannot put in these sejiiirate and distinct stiitenienis of fiict. 1 do not wish to arffue Ihe jioint at any jjreat Icn^rtli. but tliitt is the contention we make: If these stateiiienis nre evidence asjainst the jierson or (iovernment who makes them, they are not evidence in favour of that per- son or that (iovernment. The 0(namissi(mer on the part of the t'nited States: — 1 un- derstand it is all one caa> filed at the same time with (he Co iii'liitrators, was it not? '!r. Dickins,iii: — Yes, Your Honour. Tl, ("(immissionei- on tlie jiart of the I'liited States: — All tiled ;,' one iime and in one statement. .Mr. \ . ters: — And coniaiiis many different statements of fact, soiii. of whi( h are niiilerlal here, and some of which arc not material. 50 A-vl M:m r i !j i i I"' f f 1 ' 1 I ■ ■;1 :*f I': MlMii ) lO 20 360 Tho C'oiiiiiiiNsioiicr on tlw part of tlic I'^nitcd StatcH; — Wv nri" not talking about those lliat arc not material. ft[i'. Petei's: — For the sake of argument for instanee. there was no liarin in referring to this parliciihir (piotation that ui,v learned friend is about to read. Ah i)art of our ease we put in certain statements in their cas<', to sliow lliat there was a hwfH' number of seals in Hehriuf; Sea. That is the point of the ease of the I'nitc'd States whieh makes another statement alfoRether, and that is that there were certain dif ficulties sometimes in killing these seals. That is a separate and distinct fact. We ])ut it in for the purpose of sliowinj; such and such n state of facts, and m,v learned friend puts in anotlier state of facts altofjether. The Commissioner on the j)art of the Tnited States: — 1 am free to say Mr. I'eteis that I j^ave this full consideialion, and to my mind there is no i)art of that case which is material to the issiu's here. Your i»roi)osition is, Mr. Peters, that yon can single out paiticular attidavits from the American cas*- and shut out other altidavits, i)ut in for the special i>ur]»ose of qualifying the statements in the aflidavit you read from. Mr. Peters: — I have no objection to atlidavits or statements that qualify. The (Commissioner on the part of the United States:—! un- derstand that Mr. Dickinson i»roposes to read only what would qualify. Mr. Peters: — I know he alleges that he jmts it in for the 3° jiurpose of (pialifying. My view is that whilst on the one hand it is ]»ut in l)ecause they say it qualifies The Commissioner on the pait of the Ignited States: — How are we going to determine the manner in which it qualities until we hear it? Mr. Peters: — When I put the evidc-nce in it ai»l>eai's to me that my learned friend should hav<> asked to put in anything that would (pialify it. 40 The Commissioner on the ])Jirt of ITer Majesty: — 1 think, Mr. Peters, he can do that, at any time. The Commissioner on the i»art of the T'nited States: — T understand, Mr. Peters that this objection is taken by you to save your rights, more than anything elsi'. Mr. Peters:— That is all. Mr. Dickinson: — Does Your Lordship care to hear from me on the question in reply to Mr. I'elers? ;! I' 50 The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Certainly. Mr. Dickinson: — My leai'ned friend says we cannot put in part of the American case as evidence in chief? I fully agree in that and from fhe beginning to the end of this case I will not be be.ird o})p()sing the contention that we cannot put in any part of a statement made by us or in our behalf as evideme in chief for the United States. Neither will 1 be heard to ask to insert any part of the Hrilish case relating to ^ one sutiject, unless 1 jmt in all that bears on that subject in the Hritish case; under the rule indicated by the learned Commissioners, which as 1 understand it is that th(> matter can go in to be reserved for iirgument later. Hut let us see on this jxiint, and then your ITonotirs will see tlie comj)(^1encv of the testimony I pro])ose to read — compi!- ent if the testimony offered by my fiiend from the Ameri- can rase was competent. Ife offered it to show that seals were there, on that part of his case in which lie sought to lo 40 50 r.0 361 hIiow the pmbnbli' Cittili. lie offered lli«' pai". of the Am- erican ciiMe, Hluiwiiig where tlie Healw wi're, iih evidi-iice, if evidence at all, tending; lo show Ihal, if wealH were t\^^'V^' )ic could probably have (jot them with Iuh sh}\>, (lie "(Jarolena," iind for no other piniioHe. Now, to qnalify tliat statement in the American case w«f show on onr side (hat in th" samo case, non constat, the seals were there, ji't there wore sncli ditticulties in the way that, by the very staltMnents of tlie American case, and referring to the notes, the "Carolena" could not have caufjht them, if they were there, in any such (|uantitie8 as claimed. Therefore, it qualifies the statement wiiich my learned friend makes so far as it bears upon the ] i( liably catch directly, and I will read from pa^je l!tl, c<»m- nienc'inp at the second para^rajdi, American Ueprlnt, Voliimu '2. I only read what is imported and read int<» the American case, and receiv»'s the endorsement of the American \'ise. Doctor Allen says: "Those only wounded, whether fatally or otherwise, dive and escape capture. The less severely wounded nuiy, and in many cases doubtless do, recover fn.iii their wounds, but in the nature of thinps many others must die of their injuries. There is a wid<> ran};e of chances be I ween an instantaneously fatal, or disabling, shot and a slight wound from which the victim may readily recover, with ob- viously a larfje pro])ortiou of them on the fatal side of the dividing line." At page 1!)."?, same volume: "It is only necessary, in ord- er to sliow how mucli the unskillful out number the skillful hunters to refer to the agre»'inent entered into by the mem- bers of the Sealers' /kssociation, of Victoria. British Colum- bia, for the season of ISJtl "The portion of the agreement re- ferring to this matter is as follows: We also bind ourselves not to take more thaii three experienced hunters in the seal- ing business on each vessel represented by us, said hunters, to be engaged at the scale or lay adopted by this Association, asliereinbefore j)articularly described; and we also agree that all Ininters required in excess of the three hunters above men- tioned for each vessel shall be new men at the business of seal hunting, and shall be engaged at the same scale or lay liere- inbefore mentioned, and this clause shall apply to all vessels owned or controlled by tli<; members of this Association, wiiether clearing from the port of Victoria or other ports in <'anada or the Viiited States, or any i>ort where any vessel owned or controlled by any members of this Association may be fitting out for sealing on this coast." At i)age 1!)5 Charles (.'halall, a seal hunter, says: "The average hunter would get one out of every three seals shot; a jioor liunter, not nearly so many." Thomas (Jibson, a seal liunter. or engaged in tlie sealing business since 1H81, says: "An ordinary liunter would not get more than one out of (Very three or four that he kiMed." Daniel McLean states: "That about one-third are talcen." And Captain Martin Ben- son, of the sealing schoner "James (i. Swan," says, about si.xty ]»er cent, are lost. E. W. Soi'on, mate of a sealing ves- sel in ISSS, says: "We only got about one out of every five killed." Thonuis Brown (No. 1). a b()at puller for three years, states: "1 don't think we got more tlian one seal out of six that we killed." Caleb Lindahl, a seal hunter, says: "On an average a hunter gets erne seal out of four. I have known of poor liuiiters losing nine out of ten." Henry Mason, also a seal hunter, says: "1 do not think they would get more flian one seal out of every six or seven tlu-y shot, and some- times only one out of ten." Sir llibberl Tapper:— Would you mind adding to that statement the four lines at the loji of i)age 1!),5 just jjreceding tllese wi messes. I ■■ ;;i 1; , r 'I,' iiii 'V\r.-, 362 Mr. IMrkiiiNoii: — Tlial Ih nli'fiul.v iti (lie caHc. road liffori- by inc. Hir Hiltbci-t Tiippcr: — \ol in coniMMlioii willi thai jiara- Kraph. Mr. DickiiiHon: — I'rctiHcl.v. in connection with .vonr tcHti- niony; I jint it in lu'forc. Kir llihbcrt Tnpiur: — Wonld ,vou iiavc any ol>jcction to • o reading; it aH introductory to tliis Htatcnicnl? The ('oniniiHsioncr on tlio part of llcr Majesty: — TlicHe ex IractH were not Met out in tliiH case, I su|)poHe, hut are only to be referred to, »h well as those put in by Mr. Peters, by words of reference. Mr. Dickinson: — They were actually written out. The Conimissioner on the i»art of Her Majesty: — I think they should nr the lines reijuested by Sir Ilibbert Ttipjier. They are as follows: "I'nder the circumstances it is most ditlicult to Hx the actual number of seals destroyed and not secured by 30 hunters nsinj; tire arms; but it is a conservative estimate to say that such hunters losv> two out of eveiy three seals shot b\ them." The Commissioner on the jiart of the United States: — Thes" extracts, Mr. Dickinson, do yo\i want read into tlu' notes, or simply referred to by the stenographer? Mr. Dickinson: — They are (piit(> brief, and inasmuch as the other matter went in I would like to have these ro in. 40 50 The Commissioner on the i>art of the ller Majesty: — I think it would be very cumbersome to do this. 1 thought all along that all these extracts, exicjtt as specially mentioned, were not to go in. 1 tlKtught those were read yesterday so that we might know what was being ottered, because w«' might re- ject it ultinuitely. Mr. Dickinson: — What Tiiy friend read from the American case did go into the stenographer's minutes, and will go into the i»rinted matter. I therefore add«'d my (lualifying sen- tences, which were v«'ry brief. The Commisisonei' on the part of Her Majesty: — Very well, if that is so it is different from what I undei'sto(»d yesterday. Mr. Peters: — I mu.st say that from our point of view these extracts, if they are valuable at all — and they have a certain value — should go into the notes. They are not long on eith- er side. Mr. Dickinson: — I just said to my learned friend that I (^Q would move to strike oit of the notes anything but the re- ferences to th;>se ]»ages on both sides. The Commisisoncr on the jtart of Her Majesty: — I have exi)ressed my ojiinion. which seems, however, not to have the concurrence of anybody else, that I did not think they were going into the notes, and did not think they ought to go in. The Commissioner on the i>art of the riiit<'d States: — I do not think tlu're has been a uniform i>raclice iibont it Some lo 20 30 40 ;o r,o 363 of tlx-sc fxIriM'lH liiivi' piiic in(o llic iiolt-H iiimI (ttliciH not. t lliiiik wliJil Wfii( in .vcHtcnIn.v wuh mainly li.v reft rcnco. Mr. rdt'iH: — Tlicrc were none ivad vt'stcrday, «h a nniHcr (if fact, Vour Honour. Tiio Coniniissiont'r on tlic i»art of the United States: — Tlie last lot went in mainly l)y icference. .Mr. I'eterM: — Tlnit wan before yoni' lIononrH HUKpeHted it slionid not he |iiinlt'd. What went into tlie notcH wan the earlier pari. The matter was then dropped if von remeni- l.er. The Conimissioner on the part of the rnit(>d HtateH: — I lliink what von read from the answer of the ('niled Stales went into the notes. Mr. Peters: — And also there are some statements. i>r some oilier rejiorls, whieh oiiftht to po inlo the ntttes in any event liccanse they are not easily fjolten at. Tlie (Commissioner on the part of the I'niled Stat«'8- — I have no donlit it is the desire of both ConimissionerH that nolhiiiK should >;o I'nio the notes that ean |»ossihly be kept (Mil. that is. tliat ean be found by reference. What do coun- sel prefer in this mailer? Is it sutTicient to refer to it in the sleno{?rapher'8 notes? Mr. Dickinson: — I would rather have it all po out. simply making references; but we disagree your Honour. The Tommissioner on the part of the Tnited States: — My learned associate refers it to me. If (>ither counsel desire to have these po into the notes, my own inclination would be to yield to tlieir desire; but the jjenoral propramme marked out yesterday, when it was found that w<' all had a coi)y of this American Re]»rint. was that whatever went in from this Rei)rint should be by reference. As a part of this matter has pont the next case lake care of itself. My learned as- sociale refers it to me. and at your nMpiest I instruct the slen()pra|)her to run this into the notes. What you read from Ihe answer of |]ie I'nited States went into the notes, did it not. Mr. Peters? Ml'. I'eters: — That went into the notes as I understand. Tlie t'ommisioner on the part of tli(> United States: — Of course counsel will understand that the rommissioners desiie lo avoid encnniberinp the notes more than is absolutely neces- sary; bat with the consent of my learned associate we will If'l tliis po in — extracts on both sides, exhibits and every- »' » 1111 n fi^\r 111 (-j\ ii«i\ir> \fli tt\ti tv .-'n»\i-"» v.-»»ii»^i«»' i«ii\a * i^.^i lliinp else — and nnet the next case underslandinply. Mr. Peleis. I did not make any ol)servati(Mi yesterday, neither did my a.ssociate. witli reference to these certificates on theso charts, of which three or four were ])iinted in yesterday's notes, because I thoupht i>ossibly there mipht be scmiethinp in them yon considered valuable. Mr. IVters:— I simply read the cerlifi/ate to show that i. is an anlhenlic document. II IP* ■i 1 'j i i hi I IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) // // ^ A* .V^ ^ ^ « 1.0 ^U£ Ui ^^^^,1^ Mitel. I llmi .Sciences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STMIT WnSTM.N.Y. I4SM (716) •72-4903 m « ^ ff.f. • : 1 Ml!'"?'' »■! n -f ' Hi'di lO The roii'.iuiHNioiH'r dii the pjirt of tlu' I'liiti'tl Stah-H: — In nil niHCH of tluit Hort jh it not lH-tt«>r to hIiow ihiihth to «-oun- Hcl on tin otlu'i- Hide and ask tliini if tlM-,v (]«'n,v tlit-ir autlioi- it.v inutt-ad of nsidint; tin* (-('ftiliratcM. Mr. DickinHon: — KHptM-ially aH we do not ohj«'rt on that gronnd at all. The ConuniHHionor on tho ]uirt of tlu> I'nitcd Ktatt'x: — How- (>V(>i', aH tlu>Mi' are in tlu> i-e<-oi-d, p(>flia|m tliey liad better stay. Mr. DiekinHon: — I now desire to olTer tlie eitlzenHhip ))aiH'rH of John Andrew lieelitel, wher<>in he renouneeH IiIh eiti/.en- Hhip to tlie I'nited States and beeonies a HritiHli Hnbjeet. Mr. Peters: — I would like to ask my learned friend to state what possible relevance this ean have. Mr. Diekinson: — Maybe my friend will admit that he w !8 formerly a United States citizen, and became a subject of 20 (ireat Britain at this time. Mr. Peters: — I mak«' no admission whatever. On this )H>int I have nothing to admit. I nmke no admission, and distinctly so state; but at the prei44>nt time here is a docu- ment put in which shows that at a certain dat(> he became a subject of (fivat Itritain. I cannot exactly see what that has to do with the ('ase, at the i»resent time at all events. The ('onimissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I pre- sume Mr. Dickinson would seek to conne«*t it afterwards witli ' some nmterial rch'vant evidence. Mr. Dickinson: — I am perfectly willing; to state my r»'asous for olTerinu it. Mr. Peters: — If my learned friend puts this in lu' does so because ir contains a recital that this man was formerlv of the United States. 40 The ('(miniissicmer on the part of the Uniti'd States: — Is it signed by him? Mr. Peters: — It is signed by the repistrar of the court. The t'Omniisioner on the part of the I'niti'd States: — Does it puritort to contain a statement by him that he was former- lv a citizen of the United States. Mr. Peters: — It contains thn'e docuin<>nts, tlrst dnvit . nn nfli The ronnnisitmer on the part of the United States: — Will 50 yon kindly pass it to the <'ommission*>rs to save all this Koinp into tilt notes. (D«»cnment passed np.) Mr. Dickinson; — I do not suppose my h-arued friend ob- jects on any technical fironnd. lie objects substantially to my showing that Hechtel was a citizen of the United Slates and became a subject of (ireat Itritain. Mr. Peters: — I certainly will raise that objection when we come to it. This is a docunuMit purjiortin); to show that he 60 became a subject of (ireat Itritain, and I object to it Is-iuf;' put in merely because then* luip|M'ns to be a recital in it that he was f(n*merly of the I'niti'd States. That is no evideni-c that he was formerly a citizen of the United States. The ('(miniissi(mer on the part of the United States: — You object to it on the ground that it does not tend to prove that he was ever a citiz :] of the I'nited States — on the ground tliat assuming that the United States nniy prove that he was a 365 lO <'ili%«'ii of tlu> I'liiti'd StiitcH, thill tlii^ dufu not tend to jm-ovc lluit fart? Mr. I't'tei'H: — It Ih iiTflt'vant, niul an to IiIh iN'iiiK a citizt'ii of tlu' rnltcHl StatcB that is a matter wiiich must Ik* provt'd in some oth«'i' way; Mr. IN't«'f8: — It appi'arH to nu' that my h>aiii«'d fHcnd pu.' |tot«>ly kept away fiam aRkinj; th*> )pi«>Htion wlietlicr or not he waH a rltizen of the I'nited Htateo. Mr. IMcklnson. — It in material to nu to tlx the date when he iiecnme a eiti/en of (ireat Iti'itain, your Honour, and the doen- iiient Ih in the UHual form with whicli the eiti/.enHhip, or al- le;;iance of tlie citizen ]Mir])OHinK to be naturalized Im recited. Tlie country from which he couu'h, of wlii«-h he was formerly a Huliject, and which lu> ri>n«Miiice8 in IiIh oath, \» the country named in th(> d:icunu-nt. Tlie CommiKHioner on llu> part of tlu'l'niled HtatcH: — I wnH 20 looking to see if there was not a renunciation. Yes; there is a t;eneral renunciatitm, not like our oath. 1 understand, .Mr. IMckinson, that you expect to make it a part of your ease to show t«i the court that it is niat«>rial for you to know when he became a citizen of (ireat Britain. Mr. IMckiiiHon: — Yes. yl for (ireat Itritain say lie did not This pap«>r has no tendency to show that he was a citizen of the I'liited States. Mr. Dickinson: — Kx'-ept the recitation, your Honour, of his former alle};iance to the Uiiited States of America. Mr. Peters: — That is only in the Hcfjistrar's certificate, and docs not state that he was a citizen or anything else. The Commissioner on the jmrt of tlie United States: — It 40 Himply stati'B that he was a resident of the United States, not a citizen. Mr. IMckinson: — It lecites the country from which he comes but does not state the citizenship. Tile Commissioner on the part of the United States: — He renounces allegiance to the foreign state of whi«-h he was ti subject, but it nowhere slates the former state of which he was a subj«'ct. Mr. Dickinson: — The Uritish form does not, y«»ur Honour. We desire to tlx the dale at which he be«anie a Hritish subject and tliat is one sle|t in our case. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the United States: — My own opinion is that you are entitled to fix that date. Mr. I'eters: — We object to that document being used as iiiiy proof wliati>ver of the correctness of the statements eou- lained in any one of those docuni(>nts. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the United States: — 80 far as I am coiicerred I iiri-«1 t(» hv liftinl now, )IH «>tli«'rwim' wi- would take hoiiu' tiiiio loiiioi-row, or next dii.v, and if .you (-(tnic to that objcrtiini we pruiioiM' to allow lit' it a i-itiz«>n of the I'niti'd HtatcM. Mr. IVtt'rs: — I only niakt- tliiu ohj«'clion for the |Miri)ORi> of fully rcMcrvin); ni,v riKlitH in tlu> nnittcr. .M.v undorHtandin}; in t]u> matter Ih that, tliiH, hfin^ on«' of tlu> prinri|ml pointH in tlu' cam', will naturally Ih> rcHcrved for arKunifnt after the IQ faetH in «'aeli cam' are fiilly before the <'«Mirt. I only wIhIi to he under8to«>d an rern'rvin^; our rlf;ht8 to raim' tlie arp;u- nwnt of the nationality of .Mr. Heehtel in thiH cam' and that of other |H>o|)le in otiier cam'H. From our |N)int of view thitj is a matter that eann(»t be en<|uired iiito lu're at ail. The ConimiHsioner on tlie part of Her MajeHty: — On tht- face of the treaty it i» a matter that may be enquired into, I think. Mr. Peters: — To elucidate that jMiint would re that 1 only wImIi to rem'rv«' our rif^hlH. I do not think it would be advimible to ar^ne the qucHtion now. Eh- ]H'cially in thiH cam', wliere the matter conieH up, iH'rhnp8, in u form ditTerent from any other cam>. The ('(unmiHHi«>ner on the part of Iler .MajeHty: — Of courne we do not want the (pieHtion ar^^ued now; it ntandn out upim the face of the Convention itnelf. That Ih a uuitter to be air^ued on the whole evidence. Of courge the queHtion raiHed now in aH to the re«eption of particular evi- dence. Tliis docunu'ut tended to prove that Mr. Itechtel WUH an American citizen, I think it would be relevant evi- dence, becauHe Mr. HickiuHou could follow it up by attempt- inj? to prove that h<' wan the real owner of the venHel. One can HiH' without any Htretch of the imapnation that that W(»uld be IiIk courne. Ah it ntandn, an my learned brother sayH, it d(M'H not appear to be any evidence of that fact. If otTen'd merely as a proof of the time .Mr. Itechtel be«-ame a Rritinh H>ibj»'ct that in itnelf, of courne. would 1m' wholly ini- nuiterial, becanne he mi^ht have been a nubject of HelKium previouH to that. I'luler the Treaty that w<»uld be nuiterial, of coiirm'. if Mr. IMckinmrn wan able to prove that he wuh nil .\merican citi/.«'ii. It NeeiiiH to me tlie bent time to offer evidence like thin would be when he adduced IiIh otiier evi- dence. Still, I do not object at the (trem'tit time to thin, ex cept that it iiii;;lit tend ti> confiiHe, if .Mr. IMckinmin Hhould Im' unable to Kupplenieiit it with other eviileiice. If I w«'re hearing the cane ordinarily I think I Hhould ank counm'l to hold thin an I have already Htated. I do not object to itn go- 50 in^ in at th«' |)r«>Heiit tiiiu> for the proof of the particular fact you refer to. Vou cannot put in the wliole cane at one time, and I would Im- inclined to receive it and allow you to prove it at HiH'li timeB an you seek t«» prove it. Mr. DickinHon; — I wuh actuated by a denire to net alou}; withthecaM'Ho far an I ciiuld to lay before the ('i)iiiniiHsioiiei-H roHe; liut I am quite Hatintied, after linteiiiiiK to your llonoiii'. that it luiKht poHnibly encumber the record, and had iH'tter ffo in later. I thoiiKlit ponnildy my friend proponed to arg'ie the objection now. Mr. Petern: — I nimply dcnired my ri^litn renerved. Mr. IMckinnoii: — I niippoHe the colhiquy with n'ference to fliin paper iniKht an well ^o out of the iioten. The ('omminnioner on tlie part of ihe i'nited Hlaten: — It Htriken me that Ihe diHruniKon In very valuable. I «|o not think you have wanted lime. Mr. hickinnon. I think the Hiatun of the piiper in neliled, and tin- niatun of the ijiienlioii. 40 60 367 l'a|H'r \vi(li«lra\vii. Mr. DifkiiiHoii: — 1 now dt-Klr*' to offvr tl»> U'iU'v of John Tiltoii. Ih'put.v MiiiiHtci- of FiHiioricH. to Mr. MuuhIi-, voIuuio of till* ItritiHli vHHv, ptigi' 104. The ('(MiiniisHtoiicr on thv jmrt of tht? Tnitt'd Statoa: — Do von doHiri' thin to tut into thi> noti'H? Mr. Dk-kiuMon: — Vos, jiour Honour, and tht* letter Ih uh \o follows: "Ottawa, Jul.v 2tJth. 1887. Dear 81rH: I hnv!> to aeknowledp' the reeelpt of .vour let- ter of the iJMIi. inHtant, addreHxed lo the MinlHter of Marine and FisherleH, in whieh .von Htat*': "We have not reei'lved ii Min>;le w<»rd from the I'nitod Stat«'H (lovernnient ahont the release of the v«'HHel8. referring, of eonrHe, to thoHe seized last seamtn. "On the 2nd April last I e an,v a))|)lieation f«)r tlie surrender of the vesKelH, or have .von reason to suppose the Tnited Htates (Jov- 1 riiinent would eoniniunieatt> the action to you by other means than the ordinary ottieial channel? "This department lost no time in conimnnicntinu the de- cision in nuestitm to you. with the exiM-ctation that you would at «»nce tak«' stejw to rejiain possession of the veKsels. "I am, etc., (8iRn»Hl.) JOHX TILTON. "Deputy Minister «»f Fisheries." iO 40 Mr. Dickinson :— The jioint I eH|H'»ialIy call attentiim to is that on the >'iid of April last, 1SS7, he advised him of the <»rder of the President as to reh'asinp the vessels, and states that Munsie acknowledK«'e that we have fioi throufth some preliminary work which would have taken us just so much time to-morrow, and at this time, if agreeable to the <'om- ni!Nxion<>rs and to tlu- learned cotinsel, I would be glad to have the Commissioners rise. The Commissioners then rose. :t, ;: mn :' 1 1 OommiBsioners under the Oonvention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 11, 1896. .\t 10.:t(l the Commissioners took their seats. Tile Commissittner on th<' part of Her Majesty: — The third rule provides that the counsel f«»r Her Majesty shall ehu-t (lO within '_'4 hours after the tHin;,' of the answer whether they will make a tinul re|tly or not. That time has elapsed in all (lie cases, I believe. .\nd it also pntvides that within 24 lioiMH after the tiliuK of the answer counsel fen- Her Majesty shall have an entry made and adopted as to the order in wliicji tlic cascK shall Im* presenttnl. The time under that I'lile liavini; elapsed, I |tresuni< all has been dtme that was iiilended to be done; and it is lo be assumed that if no reply lias been put in none is intended to be; and tliat the cases ai'e, mww^^^r UiMii-i lO 20 30 40 50 60 tluM'cfiti'i*, in pro|H-r foiulilioii to Ih* liciird in llirir ttnlcr. Tlial In what w(> tliiiik, Mr. rctiTK. iinlcsH, |H'i-lia|m, ,v«>ti niiKlit to- day, if .you liavL* not ho uudi'mtood, inalvc Hurli I'li-i-tion and »uiii futry. Ml'. IVtcrH: — My It-arncd friend, Mr. DickinHon. and I a|!r(>o tlnit it will really eanw nked upon Ktri<'tly betw«H'n as. Nearly all the re|ili«'H are in, I believe; all exci'pt two, which will 1m« ready to-day. The ConiniisHloner on the jiart of the I'nited StateH: — We want to know where we Htand. Mr. Peters: — They are all in but two, and those will Ih' In to-day OP tomorrow. The CoinniiHrtioner on the jtart of Ih-r Majesty: — How would it do for yini, as my aHHoeiate HU^jceNtH, to have your eleetion determined by Monday, at all evenls, and your reply tiled, if you intt>nd to tile any. Mr. Peters: — That will b»' <|uite sufTirient. Mr. Dirkinson- — We liav«' a^ret'd in two or three nnitfers that we would ii(>ither of us take any advantage of the rule — the ease of the Wanderer and one or two others. The <'onimiHsi«»ner on the part of tin- I'nited States: — How much time do you want in wiiicli to tile vour ainsweix, Mr. Dickinson? Mr. Dickinson: — Oil, by Monday morning, sir. Of course the <]uestion of th<> ]u-inter is an unknown quantit -. He is busy with the records of the Commissionei-s, and we have had dilticuliy on l)ot!i sides in having; «Mir print in;; done ]n-omptly within the rule. The <'omniissi<»ner on (lie j»art of Her Majesty: — We will undet'stand, then, (hat in all cfes ii which the answer is in, the rejdy shall be tiled on or before Monday next; or. if the CO' ns.l for Her Majes'v elec> n-it to i«it in any reply, the case will tlu'U be wady to be taken up in its course, and the other cases, I think, may stand until further referred to; soiiu' time next week we will draw attention to the matt«'r again. Mr. Peters: — Of course it is uiid«-i'stood that in tlu' case on trial the reply is in. The only cases where repli<>s are not in are the three cases the names of which I have forgotten — the last three — and they will be in within the time indicat- ed this morning. Mr. Dickinson: — My learned friend has given me a mem- orandum of wi lit he in-oposes to introduce from the American case, and of course I would like to understand iH'fore he closes his case just what c»unes in — before we ojien — and up- on that point I call your Honours' attention to the fact that among thes<' are a larg(> numiter of ailldavits otTert>ii the "San Diego;" paragraph on the Pribyloff islands, in tli<' \orth Pacitic Ocean. Scmie of these affidavits are very vtduminous. Now, on the subject of the introduction of affidavits, I de- sire to say that at the time the argument was had on the introduction of the Dtmghis allldavit, which was the first one proposed t«» be offered by my friend, he offered it because It was in the Viiited States case w in tlie record tit Sitka. .My (rii'iid Hhitt'd th:il tliiH rhiHH uf tt'Mtiiiioii^' wiih only ouc wit- iM'HH, iiikI that, from tlu* intiiiialioiiM of tlic < 'oiiiniiHHioiiiTH, JH only iitliniltrd lH-<-aiiH<- of that NtattMiii'iit, an I uiuItTHtoiHl it .il tlif tiiiH', aihl lu'caiiHt' the olij«>ct> t'onrt, that tin- Hiat*-in«>nt uf a witncHH hi tlu- trial of a raw in wliit-h tlu* rnit«-d Slatt-H iK a I'ai-ty <1i ('oiii't, inut'li nioi-<> iin|ii'<>HHion Hlioiild Ix* inadt* wlirn it is |M'o]Hiwd to fcad attidavilH tliat \vi'f<' tlli>d lH>forf tli«' PariH 10 TrilMiinil, an ItiiidinK njton th«' I'niti-d Htatt'H upon a lirarini; licfort' tliJH Iliffli CoininiHition. Mnclj inor<* ini]>f<>NHion Hlioiiid Itr inad<' wlii-n it w |iro|ioH<*d "it r«'a«l but paragfaitliH of hiicIi iillitiavitH. I xliiili not tnliv Mu' tiiiif now to ai'Kn*' tin* i|ii)'8- tioii. iHM-aiiNt' I liav<> doiK' ho tiiMftofnt-o. and tlic roiirt Iuih ('Xpr*'HH<'d itmdf npon tlic Hiibjrct ; lint it iH nt'ct'HHai'v ''ir iih to \iiunv wliat Mi,v fi-ii'iulH )Mit in willi tin* porinJHNion of tlie Conrt. 20 30 Ml*. P«'t»>fH: — T'ndw tlioBo circnniHtnnct'H, 1 inni^ini' tlio most convcnictir way would In* for nu- to state tin* exact paf- iiiri'MjiliH I do ]M'opnH(> to put in. Tile (.'oinniittHioner on the part of the I'nited HtateH: — I uiiH hopinpr we had gotten thron^rh with all tlim; that the rule laid own hy my learned aHHO«-iat«> the other day eovered tlie whole of It. The t'ommissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — The r«'fer- eiiceH that yon Iiave made in yonr liHt really indii-ate what yon di'cm niateiial to yonr ea«e. Mr. Dielvlnflui:: — Well, it para^raphH it, or pajjes it, pretty iicciirately. The <' liroii^Iit in should be reri-ived snbjeet to arguments «if tlie rt'Kpeitive eomiHel. Therefore anytliiiiR that Mr. Peters tli'iiks ^o i" material to his ease witli referenee to tliis matter nhonld ro in by woi-ds of referenee, and anytliiiiK that Mr. Diekinson thinks necessary in tlie way of qnaliflcation should also go ill in tlu' same way. Mr. nickinson: — I desire to record, however, inasniueh as we are making biHtd friend a copy and tiling a copy. The roinmissioner on the part of the I'liitcd States: — Have you not the references there to the .\meriii llie |Mirt o.f Ilfi- MHJ«'H»y: — It iim.v Ik* tlu' n'rt'i'fUct'H may Im> uuiiioroiiH, and tliat Mr. DirkinHoii lias not had till* ti^i|)ortuiiity of goiiiK uvi-r the paHiuiKt'H to which you rt'ft'P. Mr. IVtorfi: — Tho <|iiotHtionfi, an a nih*, art' not long; in fart, tht'y ari> nliort. My Ifarnt'd friend Iihh already got ta1«>n down on tlio not«'R th«- full rt'fen-nciM lu* made to thu American cane, to wliich I have no objection. lo Tlie t^nnmlHHiouer vn tlie part of the Ignited States: — On tile other liand, you nHl got is Hliort, |H>rhapH, Itut Mr. l>i«-ixinHon iH entitled to put into the notes as mucli ax he hccs lit o{ the same paper. If we knew we were going to stop with short extnu-ts, well and -O good. I say to you as counsel and as a friend of the (.'ouimis- sion, not as a ruling or instruction, that the Comniissioners have cwnferrtHl, and they desire, as far as practicable, that whatever is in the American reprint shall go into the n»corl «»Hly by referen*-**. Where counsel really desiw anytiiing in the r«M-ord, if it is im|>ortant, it should l)e read into the re- cord; and of cours(> we will yield to the desire of counsi'i. I do not s that I can say anything more. Mr. Peters: — I'nder tlicse circtimstajices I will do tills: I ,-j will tak«* the wt'erences as I have them now so that they will clearly id<*ntify tlie record I wish to refer to, and then I will put that in. Mr. Dickinson: — Now tliere is another character of testi- mony that has not been before i-eferred .to, and that is on the second i»age of the n(»tes th;it have been handed to me by my learned friend. iM'ing extracts from reimrts of committtM'S in Congress, not in tire American case at all. They tind in various dscuments tlu> r<>portH of committees, and desin> to put in certain contents of such re]M)rts. Of course no report 40 of a con:mitte<> «»f Congress has In'en nd«»pt(>d by the Ooveni- ment of the T'aited Ktat«'s. and has not been adopted In the contpov«'rsy with Great Itritain. The Commissioner on liie part of Her Maji'sty: — It would clearly seem to me, Mr. TV'ti'Ps. that ♦he mere report of a committee would not l)e admissible. Mr. Peters: — If the Commissioners will allow me. I am not attempting to put in the report of a committee; 1 am attem))t- ing to put in tiie stat<'Uient of Captain L. '}. Kheppard, who 50 was tlie seixing officer, and the captain of the Rush, which was em]»loyed as a cruiser in these very wa'^ers in the year 1SS7; and I am giving tliere his sworn statement, not an af- fidavit at all. given a)»par(>ntly on a viva voce examination, generally with regard to the condition of the seal tishery in the year in wliich lie was a<-tiialiy ther<». It is not the r<'- ]>ort of a couimitt. in conclusion, that I put in at all. The CommiHsioner on tlie jiart of Ih-r Majesty: — This, as T am informed, is the testimony given by tliat officer before a 60 <'omiiiitU'«'. and not n rejiort by Iiini to the E.\ecutive Depart- ment? Mr. Pet(«*s: — It is iiis testimony taken before the Couimit- te«' on Merchant Marine and Fislieries. Tlie Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — It will hardly be said tiial tliat was in i»erfi>rm!nice of his duty as derived from tlic Executive authority of tlie I'nited State*. 371 20 Mr. IVtcra: — I will not iiiMlMt on that. Mr. DiekinHon: — On «'ith<>r? Tlu> 54tli ('ooKrcHH, dwunivnt i:t7, part '2, you liuvc eiteil the pi>|M)rt of C. il. TowniM'nd. Mr. IVters: — That was the actual rc'iMirt of an officer of the (lovcrniuent, and I think in authentic tcHtiniony. It \n the report of the AuHiHtant Couimiimioner of FiMherieH to IiIh gov- ernment. 10 The Commissioner on the jmrt of Her Majesty: — Well, so far as I am concerned, if that is a reiM)rt to the Kxecutive De- partment, it might ])erhap8 have some bearing ui)on tlie mat- ter. The Commissioner on the part of tlie United Rtates: — Ix?t ine understand n little more exactly what it is. Mr. Peters: — It is the report of C. II. Townsend, Assistant Commissioner of FiHaeries. Tlic Commissioner on the part of the United States : — Made to whom? Mr. Dickinson: — It is cited here as a reiiort of the 54th Congress, Vol. 137, part 2. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — How can that affect us here? Mr. Peters: — It was nmde during the season of 1894 to the Secretary of the Treasury at Washington. It was his official duty to make this refturt, and we wish to cite a short passage 30 from it. Tlie Commissioner on th<' part of the Unit«Hl Stati»s: — I am frank to say that I think as between these gov- ernments that the report «)f an executive ofticer made in pursuance of his duty to his 8tigation of this matter and report under the statute of 1893. Tlie Commissioner on the jmrt of the U^nited States:— It would not affect iny mind a hair's breadth, and it would tend to bury us with jkiimts. Of course, if my aHSixhite tliinks he could get any light from it that is another thing. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I do not lliink it would be worth while to receive it. Mr. Dickinson : — Then, to close the subject, if the Commis- sioners please, without stopping now to read all the papers, ]iaragniph^ from which are cited, we claim the right to refer to any paragraph of an affidavit, or all of it. in accordance wUli the rule that where one party uses a written document r,o belonging to the other — and only on that rule can it 1m* con- sidered admissilile for a moment — the party whose document Ih used is entitled to use any part of it. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — W«? practically ruled on that, Mr. Dickinson, in connection with tlie answer of tlie United States — the application of it. Mr. Peters: — One thing I wish to bring to tlie notice of tlie Commission, and that is in regard to the evidence of Mr. vii'i 50 ilV!l|^ IT 1 1 i I } mw"^'^ 44tMi i72 (•loliii CotHfoi'd— Difi'ct.) Mtirk<'ti«-li. We, of «-. but rv- ft-rring to pnKt* s(( of tli«* nott'H it niiKlit Ih* arKiU'd tiiat Mr. Mai'kt'tifirH <'vidfnr«> wan not to Im* looked at in tli*' "Caro- lina" cane nt nil, tMM-nu8«> on tlint impc, for Honif reanon un- known, a new lieadioK Ih inadi', aH it w«'r<', at th«- i-nd of IMh ••vidtMicp, by HtatinK "^'laim No. 1, tlio "Candcna," aH if what ,Q bad ROUP lM'f«»r»' did n«)t apply to tin- "CarohMin." Th«' (^>inniiHHion*'r on llu' pari of Ilcr 5Iaji'8ty: — IHd you look at your rt-hiark >it tli(> i-Iohc? Mr. IVtcrB: — I w>p what it in baHcd on. Hut tliprp Ih no doubt that Mr. Marki>ti<-h'H «'vid('n('«* wan intondcd for the whoh' caHc. an will b<> R<>t>n on rffortMit-p to tb«> manner in which it was introdui-ed. The roniniisHioner on the part of tiie I'nited Htates: — What 20 <'o .von say to that, Mr. IHckinsou? Mr. l>lekinH4»n: — I nay they may read it in in the "Onward" ea«* and in the "t'nrolena" eaBe. When Mr. MuuMie waK e.i the Htand, If the Court piniHe, he Htated tluit amon^ the liunterH he could not tind waH John CotHford; that lu' believed he wan in Heattb>; that he had made effortH to j>et him, but had failed. We at once cndeav ored to find Mr. 4'(»tHford. My friend naid yenterday tiiat he had cl(»Hee him or find him, I certainly do not tliink I can be called on to produce the witnecH without hnviuK time to talk to him. Mr. liodwell: — I junt wnt for Mr. CotKford and he Haid he could not leave to Hee me, because he was paid to Htay here by the ap'ut of the I'nited Staten (Soverument. Mr. IMekiuHon: — There in not a particle of doubt about that. We found him; we could not f;et him away from IiIm w(»rk without paying liim to ciime here. Mr. liodwell: — I intended to Hay tluit he could not leave bccaiiNe he wan here at the Le^xinlative AHM'uibly buiidiu};. Mr. Peters: — I will nee Mr. Cotsford aH soon jih I can. Mr. Dickinson: — I will call Mr. <'otHfir«>4t.) U- — Tliiit Ih tlif tirNi ,voii IiihI wfii of h. Hir. y. — And knew wlicrc yon wi'rc at work, didn't thoy? A. — Y<'H. Hir. ii. — And flioy havo llvod lu'ro for tlu' latit thirty yonrs? A. — Tlicy liav«' lived hen' for tlu' hiHt forty yearH or more. (i. — Do yon kwp Iiouhc lu're? A. — Yen, nlr. (i. — And y«)ur wife whh here? A. — \o, nir; I linve none. u wj're M-alhiK. I think, on one of the Healing veHelB Honietinie in ISHU? A. — I went flrHt on the "Caroh-na," 1 liiink it waH 'H(>. (i. — \Yhat waH yonr buHinoRR then? A. — Boiler-inakor. (i. — Had you ever Imh'U «»ut Healing before? A. — No. nir. Q. — Yon had had no experience in Real huntinf; then? .\. — Xo, Rir. (i. — \Ylio employed y<»u or nnked you to go? A. — Mr. Mun- »ie wan the Hrnt, at least Xed HhieIdH waR the flrHt, tlien Mr. Mnnnie. il — And did you ajiree lo >jo? A. — Not at flrat, I did not. {]. — I!»)w were you employed and jirevailed on to po? A. — My Xed Shield'H perHuanion I at lant connented to go. {}. — And to whom did you Htate that you would |{<»? A. — To Mr. Miinnie and to Mr. Be«'htel. Q. — Did they both eome to your sliop together to employ you? Mr. Petern:— Xow, I really think that that Ir a little- Mr. DickiuHon: — I am going to make UiIr examination un- IcMH I am stopped. Q. — Who waH prenent when you finally agreed to go and wlien you were emploved to go? A. — Mr. Mnnnie and Mr. Heihiel. ii. — At your nhop? A. — At the Bhop where I wan working. i]. — Did th«'y eome together? A. — Yen, sir. Q. — \Yhat time was this? A. — I eould not say whether it was in the forenoon or the aftenioon. (i.— \Yhat month? A.— The month of May. (i.-l88r,? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And that place was Robinson's blacksmith shop, oppo- site the Telegraph Hotel? A.— Yes, sir. ti. — At that interveiew did Mr. Bechtel have anything to Nuy'' A. — I don't know as there was much said by Mr. Ui'di- 1< I. Itecaiise Mr. Munsie did the most of the talking. Q. -Put he talked about it, did lie? A.— Yes, sir. (]. — And Ik- was there throughout the arrangement'' A. — ITe was there when 1 agreed to go finally. Q- — At that «onversation was the lay which yon were to receive arranged? A.— The lay was npoken of then, but it was spoken of before tljat. Q.- What \yuvM you charge if yon went? A. — What they would give me. riffwr- T — r MtMn'i 20 30 374 (Joliii rotMfonl— nirtTl.) Q. — Yoii Httivi> it wnn In Mii.v? A. — In Ma.v. '*('an)l«>nu" lind lHi)>n out on t)i«< MprinK trip? A.— No, Hir, but I 1m»11<'V«' h>i(> whh out in tin- H|>rinK. ii. — Had hIu' Imh'H out liint .year, whether you know it from '° MuuHie or not, and ItrouKht home Heal Hlu Ro down witli your Itrotlier to tnl«e Home Hllenn'b<>fore yon went on her? A.— I did. wliether that year or fon> I Itnow not; at leant 1 cannot tuiy poHitively. <2— Wan Hhe nealinK in 1885? A.— I don't know whether it wan the Hpring of 1885 or 188\'e owned tlu-m our- selves. Q. — Did you own your own? A.— Yes, Kir. Q. — And what kind of shotguns were they? A. — They were Itonehill make. Q. — Are you familiar with Hhotpuns? A.— I'ea, sir. Q. — Were they new? A. — I'.rand new, Q- — Was each one furnisht'd witli a shotgun by the own- ers? A. — By the owners. Q. — What was the value of thos** shotguns? A. — 1 don't know. Q^— YoH don't know what tliey wore selling for at the time? A.— No, sir Q. — Wh( bought the ammunition for j-our rifles? A. — I believe Mi. Alunsie bought the most of it, but I bought a few shells to use as I saw fit. Q. — Were there any canoes on the "Carolona" when she left here on that sealing trip? A. — Nolie. Q. — And w.hen you left you did not come back here again before the schooner was seized? A. — No, sir. Q. — Can you fix the date that you sailed? A. — No, sir. 1 can't, but we arHvetting canoes? A. — fletting them, that is all, from the iHdians. Q. — Did j'ou buy them from them? A. — They were bought there and paid for, I believe. Q. — Did you have anything to do with the selection of the cnnopH? A. — Only the one T used myself. Q. — What have you to say almut ihat? Was (hat one of the iM'st? A. — It suited me the bi'st; I thought I would like it the best. Q. — Did yon make any condition that you would have that canoe or yon would not go, or something like that? A. — I believe they objected to it on account of its costing a little 40 60 10 20 375 (.loliii rotHfonl— l»ir*'(t.) IIUIH' tllllll lllC OtiH'IH, tlIKi I HIlid (Ih'.V i I«l ^I't MOIIH'btnl^ flsr. Q.— Whom did you tt-ll tliiH to? A.— Ak. Itfilitcl. (/.— Whs .Mr. Hirlili-I at that tiadiiiK |Kmt tliat HpriiiK? A. — Il«' h'ft Im'IV on tlif Mthooiicr with iih and w«'iit down. Q.— On what Hciioouvr? A.— Tin- "Caroli-na." g.— .^Ir. Johu A. lifchtel, or Andrew lii'(ht«*l, othcrwim> lalh'd? A. — .Xndri'w Hcchti'l. Q.— lie Htartvd on tlio Hfaling vo.vaR*'? A. — lit' h'ft here on thi' "Carolena and wont to ;;iayo«|not with \w. Q.— Von knew liiin pri-tty wcll.'did yon? A.— Y«'h, gir, I kn<'W him prott.v well. 1 had InM-n ntqmiinltd with him a vcar or two bofore that. ti— WaH lu> »iirri«'d o«T on tlic "rarolt-na" l»v niiBtalic or iipiimst hi8 wili? A.— I thinii not. (/.— n«> did not Hjiy K»«nKn(;od in the i>ur«-ha(u> of rniM)OH at f'layo- (plot? A.— Mr, Ucchtcl did the most of it. ii- — You had abont the lu'Ht rani i' in tin* lot, didn't yon? .\.— I had the largest, and I suppose t'ousidered a little the Ix'Ht. Q. — How niucii did it eost? A. — Kleven dollars, I *)eH«»»-e; tliat is what I understood the p' e that was paid for her. Q. — And you Imd some talk lii IJerhtel; hf did not want (o buy her lM'<-anse she «'OHt so mueh? A. — Homebody <»b- ^Q jected to the price; he thought a Bmall'i' one would do, but I preferred it. Q. — And the priee fixed that h<> thought was too mueh was ♦11, was it? A. — There was something about the price why the objection was made to it. Q. — .Vre you familiar with canoes?, A. — Yes, sii'. Q. — Wliat exjK-rience have you had witii vanoes? A. — Well, I have turned over several times jn tlfem. Q. — Tell us about your having any experience with ihen^ Indian canw's here? .V. — Another time I was taking a trij* ariMind the west coast of Vancouver Island; spent sev- eral months in one. (i. — They are well known here, are they not, these cnno«>s that are used on the coast? A. — I can handle one pretty well. Q.— They are well known here? A.— They are well known here, yes. Q.— So that you were familiar with the different kinds of Indian canoes in 188G, were yon? A. — Well, 1 had been around the harbor here previous to that and went around the Island. Q. — There were four canoes bought there, were there, at r^layoquot? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— And they were the best quality? A.— Well, they were very good; they suited us. Q. — Were they of the largest kind? A. — Xo, sir. Q.— What was their size? A.— Well, I could not giv« you tlie size; there was no two of them the same size; a little dif- ference in size the four of them; but they were of the size suitable for sealing ;.urpose». Q. — What was the\:.lue of those canoes other than the one lliat you had? A. — I would put them down from ten to fif- lf'<'n dollars. Q.— That is a fair valuation? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, were not those canoes brought back 4»ere and steamed ribs put in them here in Victoria? A. — No, sir. Q. — Before you went up to Hehring Sea? A. — No, sir, they were not brought here at all. 40 5" (JQ tilt:,! r !' " '1111: 11 "il'pfffT" " Ml'ili ! 376 (.lohii < 'titHford — nircrt.) Q. — Tlioy w»'r«' put on .vour sliip aixl llu>,v wt-n- Moizcd willi licr, iiiid iM'vtT I'linu' lnu-k Uvw, did tln'.v? A. — V«'8, «ir. Q. — Tln'.v did not coiiio bsuk Iumt, did tlie.v? A. — \«». si,-. ii. — Wlio atlciidod to tlu' titling out of llumi' canoi's up tluiv? A. — X«'d 8liii>ld8 done tlu" most of it, and Mr. lledtU'i was th<> ]>rin«-ipal on(> lu>!pin|; liini. (J. — And what waH don«' with thf i-anooB? A. — Ribs was 10 put in to liold thcni togctluT. Q. — Who ntti-ndt'd to tlu' Htcaniini; of thi* ribs? A. — I Ihinii tlu'.v W(>ro put in witliout stcaniiii};, so far as I can rc- nionibcr; I rcnioniber there was no steaming done. I wasn't there all the time while ilie ribs was i;oin{; in; I seen them start on them. Q. — In this business up there, or in the business for the Carolena on this trip, will you please state who the men were consideri'd ninna{<:inK owners? A. — Mr. Munsie and Mr. IVH'htel . 20 30 40 50 r.o Mr. I'eters: — Wait a inonH>n1; I submit that a mere em- plo.vcH» on a ship is not a iiroper pers«>n to prove that b.v; It assumes something; in the tirst p]a«t> it assumes that he was owner. It is proveil here already, I think, that Mr. Munsie was owner; but to ask a mere employe*' who was the owner of the ship surely eannot be done. If there were two owners it would be on the registfT; and if there was a manaitin^ owner it would be on the register. Mr. Dickinson: — Wi- think this is suitable autlieiitii tesli- mony. may it please your Honours, to show who the employ«>es were looking u]» (o on the whole trip, in connection with the other testimony. The Contmisioner on the i)art of Tier Majesty: — Y«»u can give evidence as to what he did. .Mr. Dickinson, from whicli the conclusion might be drawn, but you cannot, I tliink, ask that question. 1 , The fommisioner on the part of the Tnited States: — What wasdon(> or said — what took place. Mr. Peters made an ob- jection that it must appear in the pa|M>rs of the vessel. That is another proposition entiri'ly. Mr. Dickinson: — I quite understand the objection and the ruling. The Comniissi(mer tm the part of the I'nited States:--I do not think tlie <'ommissioiiers intend to give elTect to that ob- jection, at the present at any rate, if they do at all. That is a broader «tbjeclion than the one we are considering. Q. — I low were these ribs jnit in? .\. — IJent and nailed In. *i — At the tiin<> of the dealing for the canoes, was (lap- tain Ogilvie with Mechlt'l? .\. — Xo, sir. Q. — Where was he? A. — Ab«)ard the vessel; at least he Wi'sn't around at the time they wen- dick«'ring for 'he canoes. Q. — Xow, did y«)u see a man there called Indian .limmy? .\. — He might hav(> been there, but I don't know. Q. — Y(Mi were not acquainted with him particularly? A. — ^ o, sir. H. — Do you know Indian .limmy? .\. — X«>t by mime; I nmy know him by sight. Q.— You went through what jtass? .\. — I'nimak Pass. Q. — When did you commence sealing? .\. — W«' started hunting for seals shortly after we got in. Q. — When did you c(mimence taking seals? you got in on the i;Uh of ,Inne? .\.— I think from the tirst of August— frimi the Ist of .Inly I should have said. lO 20 3^ 177 H (John CotHfoid— Diivtt.) il. — Wlu'iu' iilioiitH wt'iv you llu'ii in llu' Hea? A. — Soino- wlii'iv tiroiind i1il> iHlaiulH, St. (SoorKt* aiul St. I'aiil. Q. — Wliat kind of a month did yon have in .Inly? A. — The faiiH'st month wo have had any wason I have ln'on up thcr*-. sim-o. , • •jJiH Q. — And yon have been np there how many seaoonH tdne*-? A.— Three. * y. — And yon hunted with eanoes since? A. — No, nir. Q. — AIwayH in bontH? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How nniny men went out in tliew ranoes? A. — Two. Q, — One to haudU> tlie eanoe and tlie other to shoot ? A. — lt(t*i| liandU'J the eanoe at eitlier end; tlie hunter was rowing and tlie <»tlier man wan paddling; aii<] Hteerin^. Q. — Do you know anytliiuK about what tlie time Capt. Oph'- vie, or did you hear anything; about tlie time he was preparing to leave the Sea? A. — Somewhere about the 2(»th w 2;ird of August, I believe. Q. — Did you hear that fnmi the <;a])taiii? A. — That is about tli«> time it was unrHto(Ml we would Htart to pi home. I think we pot it from the ea]itain. Q. — What makes you remember the time that he talked of leaving; the Sea? A. — I suppose on aecount of talking years afterwards about what tinu' we started for home. Q.— Did you hear anything said about the provisions on board? A. — Tlu're was a remark passed that if we stayed to that time we were liable to be short of provisions piinp home; who started the yarn I don't know; but it started aboard by Monu> one. Q. — Did you have any barrels of llour on that ship? A. — \o, sir, not that I know of. (J. — We'-e vou on her when she was seized? A. — The scluKiner? (i. — Yes. A. — I was away from the s<'lior, out in a canoe. Q. — You came back lon>« before anything was taken from her? A. — As far as I know of, y«'8. i-l. — Ihi you know anything; about what sacks of llour wi'ie 40 seized? A. — N'o, sir. Q. — Did you see the llour when it was taken off? A. — I ]iai(i no attention; I didn't see any taken off. Q. — \Vlio did you hear say aiiytliin}r about you would be short of provisions if you left on the 'l',\v{\ of Aucust? A. — It was a remark that passed aboard; who it caiii«> from I ihin't know. *«',#/ ti.— The co<»k? A.— IT.> may have -started it; 1 don't know who it was started it ; it was a common report about amon^fst lis. r we all went ashore. Q. — Did anv one interfere with vour g»»iiig ashore after that? A.— No. sir. Q. — Or coming back? A. — No. sir. Q.- Did wha! you liked? A.— Pretty near. Q. — And bow long were you at Ounalaska? A. — Alight have been there a week or ten days I could not say iiosillve. Q. — Then wiu-re did you go? A. — Tlu'y jiut us aboard the steainer "St. Paul" and sent us to San Francisco. (i. — How many of yon? A. — Nine of us. \ ti. — fan you remember tlu' names? A. — I lliink so. I' ) ii' % Ii 1!. ~'vl '.' ! ! ., MiM. lO 20 30 40 (John Cotsford — Diwct.) Q.— .lust give thcni to us. A.— Nod. Sliiclds, Joo. DuiHUit, Mi(Vniahii.v, Dave Kutwt'll, William Knox, William MnnHic, Walter Tennyson, J. Cotsford; the cook '8 name was John Mc- Carter, I think. Q.— How long were you in San Franeisco? A.— I think I was there about a week; sonit^where around, or seven days; I couldn't say for certain. Q.— Where did you stay? A.— I think I roomed with a party I was there with when I was working at San Fnuieis- ' CO, and boarded at Montgomery's Hotel. Q-— Who paid your board? A.— I paid it. Q- — Has any one ever advanced you any money for it? A. — No, sir. Q.— And when did you come to Victoria? A.— Coniv up on the steamer. Q— What steamer? A.— I forget the name of the steam- er. Q.— What line? A.— The Pacific Coast Steamship Com- pany's steamer. Q. — And who paid your fare? A. — I paid my own fare. Q- — You had money, had you? A. — I bttrrowed money at San Francisco. Q. — Did any one ever pay it back to you? A. — No, sir. Q.— Did you pay any one else's fare?" A —I paid the cook's fare, and also a man on the "Thornton." For the man on the "Thornton" I gave the purser my watch as security until we got to Victoria. Q. — Did you ever receive from any one the money that you paid for the cook? A. — No, sir. Q. — Never received it from anybody? A. — No, sir. Q. — Mr. Munsie n«'ver paid your fare back? .\. — No, sir. Q. — Now, you caught some seals up ther«' in Hehring Sea on that trip on the "Carolena" before you were seized? A. — Yes, sir. (J. — Do you remember how many? A. — I don't know, (»4() odd or SCO odd. Q. — Did you catch any on the ♦•oast going up? A. — No, sir. Q. — And wimt was your lay? A. — f1.r>0 jier skin. Q.— Did .von get paid? A. — I got paid for what skins I delivered aboard the schooner. Q.— Who by? A.- -Mr. Munsie. Q. — How much? .V. — I forget about what mimber of skins I had. Q. — Did you keep any memorandum of it? A. — I have a memorandum at home, I b( lieve, of tlie niimbcr of skins I can 50 soon hunt it up and bring it over. Q. — One more question altout canoes. Are these canoes all bought of one party, or several. A. — Tliey are bought from different parties. Q. — You were on shore in the purchase of canoes, were you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — When Ilechtel was along? A. — Wlien Rechtel was along. Q. — While you were in the liarboyr at Ounalaska, was any Co restraint j>ut ufHtn Caj)tain Ogilvie, or the mate, .Mr. Ulake any more than on the rest of you? A. — I heard of no more. Q. — They went ashore wlu-n they jdeased, and wame back when they pleased? A. — I beli«>ve so. Q. — No interference with them? A. — No !ntcrfer«'nce; the captain went ashcm*, he wasn't ashor<> long; he stayeil aboard the vessel the most of the time. Q. — Did y«u sec any shingles in tlu' seams of that ship? A. — No, sir. lo 20 379 (Joliii Cot 8f«>id— Diii'ct.) Q._Wbut ballast did Hhe carry? A.— 1 don't know what tmllast she caried; it was iindor foot so I didu't see it. Q.— Did you see any lumber in the ship? A. — Only for the salt bins, er soniething like that! there was no lumber to speak of, that I know of, on board. Q.— How much pilot bread did you have in that ship, did vou have as many as forty boxes? A. — I don't think we (lid. Q.— What amount of pilot bread do you think you did have tliei-e? A. — I suppose we had about five or six boxes. Q. — Will you state whether Ojjilvic; was ill before you got to Ounalaska? A. — I heard nothing of him being ill until w<' got in there, and he spoke of seeing the doctor and getting Home medicine from him. Q. — What ships did you see in Behrin£ Sea in 1886 up to the time you were seized? 4- — We ware hunting in com- pany with the "Thornton. Q. — Any other? A. — There was other schooners around, Imt I forget which ones they were. (). — Was the Onward near you? A. — Well, we run across the Onward towards morning, or midnight, when the cutter had us in tow. Q. — That was early in July that yon were sealing there with tlie "Thornton?"' A. — That was late in July shortly be- l(»re we were seized. Q. — Do you remember of siM'aking the '"Favourite?" A. — I iM'lifve the "Favourite" was spoke, but I was in n>y bunk 30 when she was spoken. The schooner's headway stopping woke me up; we heard afterwards it was the "Favourite," but at tliat time I didn't know what schooner it was. g.— What did you go out in, in 1887? A.— Went out in the schouer "Favourite." (J. — .\nd what in 1888? A. — Went out in the schoner "Halcyon," 1 think, in 1888, called tl»' "Viva" now. Q.— And in 1889? A.— In 1889 I went out in the Allie 1. .\ Iper. (i.— And you sail*^! in 1891 and 1892? A.— I was in the 40 ".\llie T. Alger" in the fall of one year, and the next year ill the "Rea Lion." Q. — And down to what time did you seal every season? A. I have be«-n rather unfortunate in He:iling; I hardly have had tliree full seasons since I have Imh'u sealing. Q. — Hut you did go out every year after 188(5 for awhile? A. — I went out for ten yeare altogether; 1886 was the first year. Q. Do you think that in Rehring Se.i lh»'re is any place or number of places where you can go as a sure thing and get sciIh every year? A. — 1 don't think there is any sure place. (.y — Homething has been said about your being paid by i\w I'nited Htates. What has been said to you in r<>gard to com- iii;; over here? .\. — I was asked if I could come over, and tlie answer I gave was I didn't know wheth«>r 1 could come iir not, I was asked if my expenses were paid and my wag«'S were palj if I would come then. 50 -I don't think this is a nmtter that ought to (u Mr. Peters: (TO in. Mr. Dickinson: — T think so, after the statement of Mr. Spring. Mr. Peters: — I really think it is hardly neresary to put in till' notes of this Comniission any (jnestion as to whether a wilnesH gets jtaid to come or not, because it is clearly a]>- imrent to the Commission and to counsel on both sides that wilncHscH at a diKtanc(> cannot be Itrought here without Iwing lU'l iliii 'M, •: !: )• i: jlillll*" wp|RffWT"'"»r U»M. lO 20 30 380 (John ('otsford — I)in'«-t — Cross.) [Miid; they iniiHt Ik> paid for their troiilde and their time. It iniKlit be iK»HHil)h', under extraordinary eircuniHtanees, if one wiHiieM to diHeredit a witneHs, and sliow tliat lie \\s\» paid a hirge sum, to crimH-exiunine liini alxait it, but here in tlie tirut instance, what ean it have to do? Mr. DieliinHon: — XotliinR, exeept tlie statement ni-ide by eotinsel on tlie otlier side tliat llie witness stated lie w.s paid by the United States, and he could not see him. Mr. Peters: — That statement was fully explained, that he simply said he was siibpo«>naed, was here, and could not leave. The ( 'Onimissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — I do not think it is of the sli};litest conse(|uence one way or the other. Mr. Dickinson: — With all due def«'ren<'e, may it jdease the Commissioners, I shall not jiermit the statement to be made that this witness said he was paid by the Vnited States and conid not be 8«H'n by the counsel on the otlu-r side. Mr. Peters: — Such a statement was never intended to be made by us, nor can any such meaiiin<; I think fairly be taken as to what was said. The Commissioner on the jiart of the I'nited States: — AKainst that, Mr. Dickinson, y«Mir own statt'iiu'nt is sutti;au sealing in the year 1880? A. — Yes, sir, tliat was my first year sealing. Q. — At that time did you own a rifle? A. — No, sip. Q. — What had you bwn doing before that? A. — Hoiler- nmking and rowing. (J. — Anythinu; else? A. — Nothing more tliat 1 know of. Q. — Did you ever do any shooting before that? A. — Lots of it, for du<-ks and grouse. Q. — Anything else? A.— No, I don't think I «'ver shot a 4° deer before I went sealing. Q. — You shot ducks and grouse with a sliot gun. of course? A. — Shot gun and rifle. Q. — Did vou ever shoot a grouse with a rifle? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— At what distance, pray, before 188(!? A.— I tliink about as fine a shot I ever made with a rifle was off Heecliy Ilay there in the Straits, a little white diver was ofT about fif> yards, and I cut his head off with a rifl«' bullet; I have shot ducks flying with a rifle; and also up in Nanainio out of seven shots I killed five brant. Q. — When was this? A. — Hefore I went sealing. Q. — So I may say you w«'re a pretty fair shot? A. — I was passable. I was goofd — CnmH.) vKii thiuk would bo tin* liurder? A. — I thiuk about the miinu oil tlio wnter, hcniuHV you have tin- double motion, the bird 18 Hying, and th<> boat \» in motion, but I think the bird would l»e tiie hardest of the two, at least, I am not so well aeeus- ittmed to HluKiting birds as I am sea's. Therefore, I think birds would be the hardest of the two. (J. — \» « nmtter of facr did .vou find much diflieulty iu Htiooting seals? A. — \o, sir. Q. — Somebody said here the other da.v that you were looked ii|K»n as a pretty good hunter; do you tliink they were wrong? A. — I don't think they were. Q. — As a matter of fact, will you allow any person to say that lie is a better hunter than you aiv? A. — There is not only as good, but there is a better. Q. — l>o yon know any better hunter than yourself? A. — At the present time, I daresay, you will find several better chaps than I am. Mr. Dickinson: — The witness is modest, he is one of the best shots in Victoria. Witness: — In that ease I would rather he would prove it first. y. — I believe Ned Shields was a good shot, was he not? A. — Yes, sir. y. — You had Joe. Dupont, do you know him? A. — Y'es, sir. il. — \Yhat sort of a shot was he? A.- -Joe. Dupont was a 30 ^ •''.'* g""«l shot. Q. — And McC'onahey, the otlier hunter? A. — lie was u good shot but it troubled him in the canoe on account of be- ing so tall. ii. — So far as the canoe was concerned that did not (rouble you at all, did it? A. — No, sir. (i.— You were just as much at home in a canoe as any- where else? A. — On the water, yes, sir. i}.— I believe you have been accustomed to most all kinds of sniJill craft, racing craft, light rowing boats, and canoes of 40 ill! kinds, is not that true? A. — Anything, that will float on tlic water. il. — Now Shields was about the same, was he not? A. — I tliink HO. il. — And Dupont was about the same was he not? A. — Not as handy as Ned. was in a canoe, but he seemed to be i|uife at home in a canoe for all that. Q. — .\nd McConahey, you say, is not (luite as good in a laiioe as you other men? A. — No, he said he didn't like fheni. Q.— He was a good shot. I believe? A.— lie was a good sliot on land. (i.— .\nd a good liunfer? A. — Well, if a man is not accus- tomed to a b flu're were very King at that time, we were out sfinutinies very early in the morning, just about daylight, iind would stay out till dark. ii. — W«'re vou out when she was seized? A. — Y'es, out in M cano(>. n I handed my ritle and shot gun aboard the cutter. Q. — How long was it after you saw the steamer before you got on board your ship, what distance were you off? A. — I suppose I was somewhere about eight miles away. Q. — It appears you took out a rifle and a shot gun -arith you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you always carry both? A. — I think I always car- ried both, unless it was very wet, to save the trouble of cleaning it I would leave it aboard. Q. — Leave your riHe aboard? A. — Ij«'ave the rifle aboard. Q. — You used the shot gun in pref«'rence to the rifle, did you, at close quarters? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Was there an advantage in having the rifle? A. — One advantage with a rifle, the way you point it the bullet goes, and the shot gun scatters. Q. — I believe that is the case with all shot guns where bu<'kshot is used? A. — Some shoot a great deal closer than others. Q. — Now having been 8eiz«'d, you were taken in tow, were you? A. — We were taken in tow. Q. — And you went to Ounalaska? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you remember what time you reached Ounalaska? A. — I think it was in the forenocm; I dtrn't know whether it was in the foivnoon or the afternoon of the following day. Q. — How long did it tak«> you to get to Ounalaska from the place you were seized, just one night? A. — A night and a part of the foivnoon, and for the most jiart of the following day. I don't know whether it was in the foreniwn or the afternoon. Q. — Now what did they do wlien they got to Ounalaska? What was the next stejt taken? A.— The next steji taken was to tell us to stiiy on board, then we were allowed one half of the crew to go ashore, and then the other half. (i. — Was there anything happeninl in the mejintiim'? You say you all went asluut?. Did anything hap|H'n in the mean- time. A. — The first half would c(mie on board and then the other half would go ashore. Q.— What boats did you go ashor(> \n? A. — I believe we went ashoii' in our own canot's. i. — Is that correct or is it not? I want a distinct answer to that (]iK'«ti(>n. A. — I believe we went ashore in our own canoes. ii. — Y<»u say yon believe — but are you positive on that point? A. — I believe I am. 40 50 60 383 10 JO (.lohii CotHford — <'ro8H.) Q, — Can .voii louvf out tlu* "bt'lieve" uiid 8«y (hat you are poHitivt* tlint you did? A. — I «'an rcmoniber of no other boatH wt' had to Ko atthorc in unlcsH we went in our canoes. Home would an to the wliarf and Home would )>;o four or iive mileH up to H])ear tuilmon, or )(o to tlie liill and picic beriieH. ii. — Vou Hov tluit vou went asiiore in your own canoes? A.— Yes. Q. — Were tliere any other boats? A. — Tliere was no oth- er b<»at8 I linow of for us to go asliore in. Of courae some of tliem may liave gone out in boats bi'longing to otiier schoon- ers. Q. — Was tliere a boat belonging to your ship the "Car- olena"? A. — I think it was lost on the way up. Q. — \>'a8 it lost or was it not lost? A. — I believe it was. (i. — Will you swear it was lost? A. — I have no recolle<'- lion of the boat being used in the sea or of seeing the boat Afterwards. (J. — Do yon make it as your own statement that the boat of tlie "f'arolena" was lost on the way up? A. — I believe tliiit the boat was lost on the way up. (J. — Are you as sure of that fact as you are sure of the other facts you have stated? A. — I remember coming on deck one moraing and the stern boat was gone, but I do not reuieniber that boat being used in any shape or form after- wards. il. — You do ivmember that one day the stem boat was gone? A. — One day it was knock(>d clean off. ,Q Q. — Where were you then? A. — On the rojid between ^ llesqiiiot and the Fnimak I'nss. Q. — You found the boat was gone? A. — I have no recol- lection of the boat afterwards. (i. — How many boats were there on the "f'arolena" when you started on your voyage? A. — There were four canoes inul one boat. (J. — Only one boat? A. — Only one. (J. — If tiiat boat was lost on the way uj) it nnyer could have not lo Ounalaska, could it? A.— I think not. I have no fur- ,Q tiler recolleution of the boat than that moniing the davit was gone. (2. — Do you liink it posible it would be there without your knowing anything about it or without your seeing it? A. — If might be there, but I think not — at all events! never both- ered my head about it afterwards. Q. — AVas there anything d they put on shore thw very day j-ou arrived tlMi-e? Q.— I think not. Q- — Will you swear it? A. — I will not swear anything iihout the canoes positively. ^i- — .Vfter they were taken and hault>d up on the beach, were they taken out again to your knowledge? A. — I re- incnilMT (hat when I was in Ounalaska afterwards (he canoes Wile jiut on the grass. (jo '.': ' I li ii ES't-ff T' ■ 3 84 UiMi 10 20 iJolin CotHford — Cihwh.) ii. — YiHi HMW tlu'iu t)ik«'U and liaulfd up thi'ir? A. — I miw tlii'iii. (|. — Wlu'iM' wt'iT .von wIh'U IIm-.v wcrt' hauled up tluMT? A. — I do not know. ii — WfiH' you on tlif Hliip? A. — I cannot rouiouib* r of any otluT ItontB we used, unless wc used these i-an«)eH w iien we went sahnon tiHiiing. Q. — Now I want to aHk you tliiH question: When you were .eized at the time you stated, were you catehinK sealH? A. — We were all out after seals the day we wer«' taken. Q. — V.'ere you catching seals and shooting them then? .\. --Yes. nil'. Q. — Did you actually have any seals in your own canoes at the time? A. — I had some. Q. — How many? A. — I do not know. ii. — l>id the other canoes have seals in them also? A. — I believe they had, and 1 think Ned Hhields had the most. Q. — Do you renu*ml)er how many Hhields had that very day? A. — I think that he had 34, but I am not sure — I think that is the number he had. Q. — How many did you hav«'? A. — I do not know the number I had, but I think that it wan under 20. Q. — Do you know how many Dupont had? A. — No. Q. — Do you know how many McConahey had? A. — No. (J. — Do you consider lU neals a good day's shooting for one boat? A. — A very good day. Q. — Is it not an exceedingly good day? A. — It is a very 30 good day. Q. — Is not '20 seals a good day's Ashing? A. — 20 is a very good day and l.'S is a good day, too. Q. — What would y<»u call an average day? A. — I do not know that you could make any average from the time you leave Victoria until the time you get back again. Q. — What do you call a fair day's hunting? A. — A dozen or 15 seals. Q. — Were there many seals in sight that day? A. — There were not a great many — not while I was there. Q. — Did you catch any seals the day before? A. — I think so, and the day before that. too. Q. — Did you »'atch them in and about the same jdace? A. — In that same plac<'. I think we were becalmed three days before we were s«'ized. Q. — And you caught seals every day? A. — Yes, s'r. Q. — You caught »]uite a number? A. — I cannot tell. I will have to get that book if you want me to answer that. Q. — Without reference to your book, do you know that you were catching seals at that very sjxit? A. — W»' were catch- ing seals there, I think. We were becalmed about three days. ii. — And you were making good catches? A. — I think we were <3o'ng very well. Q. — What sort of weather was it the day following? A. — I do not know. Q. — There was no big storm, was there? A. — I do not think there was. Q. — Kui»i»ose you had not IxH'n seized on the 1st of Aug- ust, would yt>u have stopped Ashing right off? Had vou An- ished your own hunting for the day? A. — I think we wouTd hav<' tried to k»H'p right on until the 20th or 2;{rd of August. Q. — Did yon Anish your hunting for that very day when the s<'izure to«»k place? A. — No. Q. — You would have gon<' on more? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you had a fair chance of catching more seals, had you not? A, — 1 dale say. 40 50 60 385 U) 20 30 (.l«)liii TotHford — <'i»H8.) Q. — Yuii Htiiti'd that Hoiut'tiiiu'8 yttii would catch MoalH iu cwtaln phici'H? A. — Th«'rt' Ih no idatt* that in Mirc Q. — How many waHonB hav** .von Im-vh in Itclirint; Sea? A. — I think I havi" hwn thero tlin'o HcaMtnH. g. — Did yoH tivt walH «'V«'rv tlnu- .von w«'iv their? A. — I not HcalH cvt'i-y tlni«» I waH In the wa. Q. — What waB the nanit* of the Hclntuner the next time .von went in after that? A.— I wan in the "Favourite" the next .vear. (f. — Did jou get sealB that .vear? A. — YeH, sir. Q.— A lot of them? A.— YeH, Hlr. il. — >Vhat veBsel were ,vou In the next .v<'ar? A. — The ••llalc.von." Q. — Did .v<»u \ivt BealH that .v»'ar? A. — I pot some outBlde llie sea, but not loBlde. (i. — Why? A. — The captain would not «(» In I believe. Q. — You cannot tell whetlu>r you wouhl pet them or not if .von went in? A. — No. Q. — Were you In the sea in otluT years? A. — I waH in Itelii-inp Sea in the Allie I Alper. Q._\Vl,at .vear? A.— In 18tH) I think it was. Q. — Did you get a fair catch that .vear? A. — No, we did not pet many, (i. — Were you seized? A. — No, sir. Q. — Were you warned? A. — I do not know what warninp the captain got. (J. — You went out of the sea earlier that year? A. — Yes, ,„ sir, we started aAvay soon afterwaiils. i}. — How long w«'re you in? A. — That I cannot say. Q. — Did you see +he cutter? A. — We were in Ounalaska l»revious to this, and I daresay we saw the cutter in there. i}. — What other vessel were vou on in IJehrinp Sea? \. — The "Sea Lion." Q. — Did .vou stay the full season then? A. — No, sir. Q. — What happened tlicn? A. — Ordered home. Q. — How long were you in then? A. — About a week. Q. — Did you catch any seals? A. — Six or eipht or some- thinp like that. Q. — What time of the j'ear was that? A. — I think it was in July. (J. — Was it not shortly aftei- you pot in tliat you were or- dered home? A. — I think it was in July we came. (}. — Is there any other .v<'>;r during which .vou sta.vcd in the full season? A. — I was in the Allie I. Alger alonp with ('apt. Miner a full year. Q.— What .voar? A.— I think it was in 1891. Q. — Did you pet seals? A. — Yes, sir. (). — Were you interfered with at all? A. — No, sir. (i. — What time did you stay in then? A. — I am not siiiv but I think we sta.ved in till somewliere about the 8th of Seiitcmber, cu- in that neiphlMU'liood. (}. — Yon got seals then? A. — Yes, sir. O. — So that it a)>epars that every time you were in the sou and sta.ved anythinp like the full season .vou pot seals. There appears to be a certain amount of certainty about it. It soeius to be certain that .vou will get seals if .vou are not in- terfered with iu nehrinp Sea? A. — It is certain that .vou will get seals, but there is no certainty about the amount. Q. — It is almost certain that you will get a certain number of seals? A. — Yes, sir, it is almost certain that .vou will get some seals there. Q. — What was your catch In 1801 when .vou were in tlu' ".\llie I. Alger"? A. — I forgot the number. Q. -Was it 2,000 or H.OOO about? A.— I am not sure but T tliiiik we caught somewhere between 2,500 and 2,700. 40 5c 60 t'll imt' 'HI t> II V Ik' » illilil, I SI!''"'"' : ,1. ¥<■ i|;iiir'' I i w^ !1'"f', fi ' U 'illMii ■, lO 30 40 50 60 386 (John ('otHfonl — ('i'omh.) an ranglit Honifthing ovi>r 4,tHH) one si'nHon. (i. — And whi-n .von get 2,50<> you fall that mtching "xonM'" walH? A.— 1 think liJtM) Ih very good. (J. — I iM'lh'Vf that in that Banif .vear you hikiiR of thcro were other veHHels hunting near .von. Do .vou remember t !ie "Viva"? A. — I do not bellt-ve I huw the "\'iva" that year. Q. — You have had Home exi»erien«'e in neal tiHhIng. Tan you, nn far an you know, point out anywhere in tlie world a lu'tter i»lae«> t(» ttnh HealH than ju»t about where you were when the "Canih'na" was Heized? A. — It is only HUp]Mmiti(in on my part an to about where the "Carolena" was. Q. — Well, Hho wOR a few hours' rail from Ounnhiska? A. — I think Hhe waH further than that. Q. — You sailed an afternoon, you 8:".y, in tow of the "UuHh," and you got in to OunulaHka the next moniing? A. — I do not know whether it was in the forenoaling. Q. — You have made some talk abont the provisions that were on board the "Carolena." Did .vou ever look at them t<» He«' what quantit.v of jtrovisions were there? A. — No. sir. Q. — What did you live on on board of that ship? A. — I have not s«H>n much difference in the provision bill on board that ship and any other I have been on board. Q. — Tlie provisi«ms on the "Carolena" wen» about as good as they were, we will say, on the "Allie I. Alger." They weiv about the same thing, were the.v not? A. — No, sir, they were not. Q.— Were they better or worm'? A.— The "Allie I. Alger" was the best. Q. — Yon made the stat«'nient that you did not see much difference betwwn the provisitms of the ships? A. — There is not mu«h difrer<'n<'e. Q. — What kind of food did you have on the "Carolena"? \\'liat did you eat? A. — Of course we had bacon, ham, pork, beef, bread, butter, ten and coffw; that is about it. Q. — Did you have any canned vegetables? A. — The can- ned goods may have been there, but I do not remember. Q. — You do not remember about the canned vegetables? A. — 1 d«» not remember much of them. Canned vegetables is som<>thing that is a rai'«' article on board of a sclioon«'r for the 10 years I have been sailing. T do not remember »'X- actly what was on the table. Q. — Did you have d beef at times. Q. — And soniftinu'H yon had fresh bevf? A. — I believe we ha«l fresh V»eef when we left Victorisi. Q. — And there was jiilot br«'ad? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Do you know how man.v boxes of pilot bread there was there. .\. — I dare say there was five or six. Q. — Where were they kept? A. — I don't know. Q. — Were you ev«'r where the jtilot bread was kept? A. — We sli'itt in the hold, and from about the centre of the sliip was our sleeping comj)ai'1ment and cooking stove, and tluTC I J 3" '|0 50 Go 387 ■ ■ ;. (scribi> that gun as a Honehill gun — is that an English gun? A. — I think so. Q. — And you say there were no canoes when you left Vie- loria? A. — No. Q. — And the canot-s were taken on board at Clayoquot? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — IIow far is Clayoquot from here? A. — It is about 150 miles, or in tli.it neighborhood, on the west coast of Van- couver Island. Q. — You say you bought canoes there? A. — The canoes were bought in Clayoquot. Q. — These canoes were left in Ounalaska and I am pretty positive it was our own canoes that we w«'re off cruising in. Q.— Were you present when the canoes were paid for? A. I ui.werstand tliat . Q.— Answer the question please. A. — I did not see the money handed over, if that is what you mean. Q.— Did you see who handed the money over? A. — No. sir. Q_.Yon were not present? A.— Not when the money was handed over. Q._What were the sizes of these canoes? A.— I cannot .sjiv—i did not lake the measurement of them. Q._T would like you to tell as nearly as you can what was ilie size of your own canoe, for instance? A. — As I never nicasured it I canot say, but mine was the largest of tlu' lot 1 take it. Q.—Was there any difference in them? A.— Mine was a little larger and newer and better than the others. Q.— Cannot you tell me within a foot or two as to the length of your own canoe? A. — No. sir. Q.— Or as to the breadth? A.— 1 cannot tell you the size of it, but if I saw another canoe I me a description. A. — They are generally dug (lilt or burned out by the Indians. >rMW^'X iii'./i iii"fw^r^' • -44lM><') 10 30 40 SO 60 391 (.lolin CotHfoitl — CnmH.) Q. — And wliat wiih tliiH 8|H>oinl niiiot> (lia( you had made «»f? A.— ('«'dar. I IkHcvo. y. — Was It OP wan It not ri'dar? A. — I Ik'Hi'Vc It waH »•«•• dar. It waH dug out tlir Hanif au any o(h<>r Indian canoe. It Ih ^:*'n«Tal!.v in thn>«> |)l*'ct>H — tIrHt tlu> ranoc and then tliu bww and Ntorn air du;; out aftorwardM. (J. — WaH it a wt'lj-nnido canof? A. — \vn. Q. — Was It as ^ooA a cnnm' an you wanted? A. — Yi'h. Q. — Could you iii'i any hHter? A. — I do not tliink It- -at leant I wait well HallHlled with it. Q. — Ih it the Hanie ilaHH of ennoe that Ih uned now for Heal iuK? A. — I think it wan a nhade Inrfjer If anything;. (J. — And (•onHe«|uently a little more nteady? A. — U« iiij: larK«'r it would be a little more steady. Q. — Therefore better for HealiiiR? A. — 1 do not know that it Ih any better for HealiuK in. Q. — .\nd that Kood canoe, you nay. I think wiih nnked for it. Q.— Will you Hwear that wan the jirice? A.— To the bent of my memory that \h the price. Q.— Have you any remembrance aH to what wiih the jtrice? .\. — I believe to th«» bcHt of my knowledire that wan the price. Q. — Have yon any recollection at all iih to the prici'? A. — There were a few wordn between Mr. Ih'chtel and I about my canoe coRtliiK more llian (he othei-H. and he aHked me why I did not f;et an cheap a one an the otliei'R. Q. — Have vou aiiv recollecthm as to what tlu' price wan? A.— I believe It wanfll. Q. — Do you Hwear to that? A.— A near «h I remember. Q._l)o you Hwear it wan about f 1 ' A.— That la what I believe it wiih. Q.— Will .v it wiih in that neifjliborhood. Q. — t'oiild you buy a canoe like that today for fll? A.— 1 do not tliink you could. Q. — How much would you pay for it now? A. — 1 have no idea, but I think the ju-ice of cantM'H in raiwKl on the west coaKt. The IndiaiiH want more for their labor at the present time than they did then. il. — Would a caiMH' of that descrijiticm be worth |4(MI(> to- day? .\. — I do not think it. (i.— Would it be wortli *'_'.'» today? A.— If you asked some of the captains who have been on the schooners tliey could answer that qiiestiiui better tluui I. Q. — Well. I do liap]ien lo hav<' asked senile of the captaiMK Do yon know tlie valu«* «»f canot's in lSS(i? A. — I offered a canoe in 1HS»! .'{'» fei-t l^inK. (i. — How loiifj was tliat canoe? A. — IS feet. ij. — Did you tliink that was a jjomi sealing canoe? A. — Jt was for duck shootin>t. (i. — It would not do for s<'alin^ would it? A. — No. (i. — Vou say (hat Mr. IJechlel went uj) in this scliooner? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did you <{o to sea with Mr. IJechtt'l on any other oc- casiim? A. — No, sir. Q. — Your allegation Is tliat he went u]» in (hat schooner to riayoipiot? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — How lonij did you stay in <'layo(|uot? A. — Five days or a week, or soiiiewheie around a wei'k. Q.--Did your (np(ain keep a log? A.— I think he did. 20 3«y (j.— Ami lu- would ftitfi- ill IiIh Um wliiit wiih Inking pliirr I'lirli (liiv? A. — I «lo not lliiiik ko in tin- IiiiiImiI'. H. — Would it not Htatc how lout; .vou wvn- in tlio luirltoi? A. — Y«'B, Hir. (^ — And if tliat lo^ wiih |irodu*-«-d it would hIiow wliftlwr III* WIIH tliiTc or not? A. — It ou^lit to. (j. — At all I'Vt'UtH, yo\i Hay you wt nt out with Mr. Iti'ditcl iiiid Htii.v«'d tlicri' for four or tlvc dayn? A. — I darfHiiy it '^ waH altout that. (i.— Can you t«'ll nif tlu» day vou h-ft Virtoria? A.— N'.:, sir. (j. — Can you tidl ni4> liow limK it took you to K«'t to Itflirinj; Sea? A. — I think from llie time we h'ft we wt-rt' ahoiit \'> diiyH ^vttiiiK to tht> Hca, tlial in iih near an I roiild ^ih-hh. ii. — From wlifH'? A. — From ('layo)|uot. i}. — Vol! Htarl«'d out by nayiiiu tliat you wi'n- liir«>d. Wlio were you hired by tirHt? A. — In tlic tlrnt |tla<«' Ned HIi{cIiuiiHi«' and Mr. Hcchtcl i-am** to^rftlicr. (^ — Wliat did Sliit'ldH nay? A. — lit* wantt'd me to (;o Ht'iilint; in th*' hcii. Q. — IMd you roiiH«MilV A. — Not at tlrnl. (i. — WlKtm tlid you hci' lu'xt? .\. — Mr. MiiiiHi** wan next. (2. — WluMv? A. — In KobiiiHon'H lihukHinith hIioj). i]. — Wiih Im- alom'? A. — He wiih iiloni' tlic tirnt tiiii#. (2. — What took jilacc bctwt'cii you and Munnif? A. — lie wanted mt* to \io on tin- stliooner. (i. — Did y;ether at the same time? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And Mr. INrunsie begiin to talk about that voyafte? A. — I think he was the first one to tqieak; tliey eame tojiether and asked nie in repird to gointr sealing;- Q. — You tliink Mr. Muns'e spoke first, — and what did he ask you? A. — lie asked me if I was Roinfj on the "Parolena" sailing. (}. — What did yon say? A. — I eannot t«'ll you word for uij word, but it was sometiiint; or another about {joinj; 8«'alinu; on the 'Taiolena." 0. — Did he ask you to go on the "Carolena"? A. — Yes, Q. — Did yon consent? A. — 1 agreed to go th«>n. O. — Did Kechtel try to persuade you to go? A. — They both persuaded me to go, they both s]»oke to me about going. Q. — And then you consented, and you say IJechtel went down the west coast with you? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— TTow did he get back? A. — I dcm't know. 40 ii m m Hi i'M vfl^!!l '|"j'". ' UIM; ■; lO 20 30 40 50 60 (.lolin Totsfoid — 1{( tlircrt — Ur-oroHw.) (i.— Yon left liiiii tlun"? A.— H«' wa» h-ft tlu'io. (i. — You iiii};lit as well W cornMt nltoiit lliat and brin^xtlic Uc-dirtM't (>xainina1i(iFi hy Mr. Dickinmin: (J. — Yon Hi»ok«' of bt'ini? on the "Allie I. Alger" in 1891, and takin;; some 2,r)(!(» skins? A. — 1 think there were soniethin;; in that neigliborhtiud? Q. — Were those all taken in Kehring Sea or were tliere some taken on the t-oast? A. — Some on the ooast. Q. — How man.v? A. — 1 don't know, bnt 1 think I have an ae<-onnt at home of what we jjot on the eoast. Q- — Yon mi{rlil as well be correet abont that and hrinp the book this afternoon. A. — 1 hav»' not seen it lately/bnt if I can tind it I will bring it. I saw the «-ount of seals we had on the "Carolena" at home yesterday. If I ean tind the book 1 will bring it. Q- — You sa.v yon got •J,r>(M» all together. <'an yon give us the number eaught on the coast? A.— I would'not like to say otThand. and I would rather wait until this afternoon when I will bring the book if I can tind it; there have been so many different catches niad«> on the coast that I have for- gotten. Q. — You spoke of -i si>ace in the hold of tlu' ship; was the pla<'e the men occupi«'d partitioned off from the hold? A. — No, sir. Q. — There was no t'orcastle or room tluTe? A. — No. The men tliat steered had to go down the main hatch the same as we did, and then go forward into tlu' bunk. Q. — Where was the main hatch? .\. — .About the centre of the vi'ssel half way b»'tween the bow and the stern. Q. — How many men slejit in there? A. — Flight. There was one that slept tlu le. 1 think, in the first place, and it was too close, and he went into the (*abin. Q. — About how mucli sjyace was occupied for the men? .\. — Ther«' must have been pretty near, from the centre of the vessel forward, al)out one-half. (J.— Nearly half of the ship? A.— H would not be half of the shi]) as regards area, bnt it would be in lengtTi about half of the vessel. Q. — Abont what space was occupied by the cabin? A. — I think the cabin must hav<' Iteen 10 or V2 feet long. Q. — And <'xtending about the whole width of the ship? A. — W«'ll, there were lockers around the cabin and under th»> seats. Q. — There was no si)ace between the sheathing of tlie ship and the cal»in on the side? A. — Not that I know of; in fact I did not examine it, bnt tliere might have been. Q. — At the time yon were at Ounalaska, were there other ships with you there? A. — Yes, sir. () Vl it wer< tliey*' Th"re was tl;e "<" nword" and the "Thornton" and anotlier. Q. — Was the '-(Jeo. I»nke" there? A. — She was down from US a little piece. There was a little steam schooner cal led the "drace Darling." or the "Grace," or something of that kind. Q. — Did yon lie close togetlier? A. — Pretty close to gether. Q. — In the sealing expedition, did McConnehey or yon get (he most skins? A. — I think I got mon* than Mcronnehey did; but Diipont and Shields got mor<> than I did. Q. — When yon were seized you sny that darkness was coming on? A. — It was getting on towards evening, as near as I can rememlx-r. It was getting on to dark and T hand- ed the rifl«'s and the shotguns on board tin* cutter. 30 39 < (John Colsford — Ut'dirt'cl — Kc-irosh.) Q. — Tl'.o da.v's woi-k was ov«'r? A. — It wsih Bt'KinR on towiirdH evening', hut, of fours*', we couhl havo H(>ah-d a litth- lonpM', hut not niurh longer, as near as I <'an reineniher. TIu>y wouhl not h't nie put th(> ritle and Hhotgiin on hoard the schooner, and they made me tak«' it on the eutter. He-cross-examination hy Mr. Peters: io il. — Tlwre was a (luestion tluU I omitted to ask you. You made a statt'uient witli regard to liavin}; to pay your way from San Francisco to Victoria, and your liotel hill in Frisco. How did you pay for that? A. — (.'om- infj on from 'Frisco. Q - \*'ho8e fares did you pay? A. — I Rave the watch to tile purser to pay the board of a niun named .John Dallas, and he pahl m»' afterward. He belonged to the "Thornton." Q. — Who else did you pay for? A. — For Mct^arther or .\rtlnir or some sucli name as that. 20 Q. — Did y«)U pay llie board of any of the men on board the "Carolena?" A. — That is the only man besides myself I think I paid foi* in San Francis«'o. Q. — You did not pay the hotel bills of anyon(> t-lse? A. — No, sir. Q. — They were paid by somebody else? A. — Yes. Q. — By Mr. Munsie, I believ*-. The (Commissioner on the part of the I'niled Slates: — That is hardly a fair (|nestion, Mr. I'eters. lly Mr. Peters: Q. — At all events yoti say you paid your own fare and the fare of that one man? A. — Yes. Mr. Dickinson: — I desire to juit in, may it please theTom- niissiouers. what my learned friend admits is as described liere, a "certified copy of the report of the committ«'e of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved by his Excellency tlie Administrator of the <«o\ernnient in Council on the 2;{rd day of September, ISSt!." It is as follows: Copy of letter from Janu-s Ogilvie, nuistt'r of schooner "('aro- lena." Schooner "(Carolena," Ounalaska, Aug. G, IS)»(!. Dear Sir: The Inited States stcanur"(.'orwin" boarded and took charge of the schooner in latitude 55 degrtn-s 50' north, ioiigltude ItiX «hgrei's 5;{' \Vest; they took all the fire-arms fioni the schooner. I asked why (hey did so; they said for kil- ling female seals and carrying firearms. They towed the ••rii(»rnton" and "Onward" in at the same time. I have 50 gdt (;s(! skins on board; "Thornton," 4(14; "Onward," !KM). I liave heard nothing of the "Pa(hfind(>r" in the Hehring Sea; she was seen oft" Sitka coming ni». It was on August 1st. at r. p.m.. they took charge of the schoon«'r; canoes and white iiicu will n()t go; all the schocmers that have canoes have got Iroin nine to II canoes. The Ameiican schooner "San IMif-o" is in here, they have taken all her skins and sails on sliore: 5110 skins. Thirtt'en days after we left Clayoqn<»t w«' were in Hehriug Sea,, we lost the boat from the stern. August 7. 1SS«. '"' The Company's steamer "St. Paul" will leave to-inorrow; (lie captain of the "San Diego" and all hands are going down ill her. I will send this letter by her. Your truly, .lAMER OOILVIR. Re-direct examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q.— Have von fixed flu' number of si nls you were paid for? A.— 1.-.4. 1 believe. ■|0 ^ i i'TJ I li > !!•■ *' ! ^m,. ■ ■ ■ ; , I U->ir^ m JWwn piiBFri'i^i "I'p^ 392 (.I(»lm ('((tsford — Ki'-dircct — Hc-crosN.) Q. — You fixod it from .vour mt'inoriinduiu? A. — V«'h. 8ir. Q. — Tlu' iiu>inoriiii(luin madt' at the tiiuc? A. — Yi's, sir. Q. — Could you fix froiu the in(>uiorandunt tlio date tliat von wont to tli«> Bclirinfj Sea in 188(!? A. — No, sir, I never put tlM> date down. (J. — Or tlu' date tliat .vou Hailed fri)ni Victoiia? A. — No, sir. 'O Recmss-exaniination b.v Mr. IN'ters: Q. — In this memorandum boolv, Mr. f'otsford, .vou liave at 11m' bottom of it t)u' followinjf: "Keeeived from Jolin Cotsford 104 seals, James Ogllvie, sehooner "Carolena." (■an .vou tell me as a nuitter of fact wlietlu>r that js James Ojlllvie's writing'? A. — That is the eaj)tain's writing. Q. — That is tlu' captain's writing? A. — Yes, that memor nudum in ink at the bottom of the page is Captain Oj^ilvie's 20 writing. Mr. Peters: — Do .v<»u put in that memorandum book, Mr. Dickinson? Mr. Dickinson: — I do not put it in; I merel.v refer to it to refresh the memory of the witness as to the date. Mr. Peters: — I would like to ask this witness one »|uestion with n'fjard lo the construclion of the canoes. 1 hav»' a pic ture h(-re, and I will ask the witness whether that is sonu'- 20 tiling of the descnpti, CS.R.. Claim No. 1." UlMt 50 40 Redirect examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Judfjinjj from the i»ictni'e. dcM's the jucture I now show .vou represent about the size of the canoes you use in Healing? .\. — That is about the size jud<;inr; from the jticture. (J. — A\'ere you in Ouiuilaska in 1HS7? A. — \o, sir. (■i. — Did you ever see Ihe "Caroh'ua" in Ounalaska after you left hei' thei'e? A. — Yes. sir, I saw her the fii'st vear I was in (he "A Hie I. .Mfjer" in 18H!». (}.— The "Cai lena" was still there? A.— She was still there. i}. — Were there any other ships there? A. — I think the "Onward" was hin;,' there too. but I did not pay much !it tention to it. ti. — Look at the picture I have shown you and se<' if .vou can select fnun the veswis represented in that pictuiv the "Carolena" on the beach at Ounalaska? A. — } cannot say positively, but the second one there looks the nearest one to me. Q. — Did you see any canoes on the banks that you recojf- nize as the canoes belon^iu); to the "Carolena"? A. — There are four canoes hen' and there is one that you can se«' the ribs lHf80 in ink, and <)88 in pencil, ('an yon tell which is tlu> correct niimber, and tell us when y«tu cor- rected it? A. — That is a <5 and not an 8. ii. — Perhaps it is. but it is a funny one? A. — I nev«'r «'X- petted to show that book to anyone. ii. — You never expected to show this book to any person? A.— No. ii. — When did you make that entry in ink? A. — In 1880. 40 ij. — After you came back? A. — I do not know whether 1 made it on board the s<'hooner or not. I mi^ht have made it when I ^ot home. I cannot ssiy positively, it is years ago when that was put down at any rate. Mr. Dickinson: — I jjave my learned friend notice this niorn- inj,' tliat I would like to have Mr. Mechtel recalled to cross- examine him on somelhinjj; I omitted. I have onl^ to put a few qu(>stionH to him. Mr. Peters: — You pave me notice this morninp; — I think 50 tlie exact words were — to produce Mr. MecJitel for cross-ex- amination. I -inswered that I thoUKht as you had a full o])- jiort unity of cross-examining; Mr. lleclilel that if you wished to recall him, you should recall liin> as your own witness. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not propos(> to ask anything I have (loss examined befoif. It is only in leKiird to something I have omitted in his cross-t xamination. The rommissitmer on the part of Her Majesty: — We are C^^ inclined to allow it. Mr. Dickinson. 30 ■:'!(: §3: i/j :i i- i; '19} A. J. Ilechtel recalled. t'roBs-exaininatlon by Mr. Diing at the port of Victoria, B. ('.; William Munsie, of Vic- toria, as the Alanaging owner, of the "City of Han Diego? A. — If it is there 1 must have done it. Q. — Look at that pajter and what do you answer after read- ing it? A. — I must have doiw it. Q. — Did you or did you not? A. — I should think if 1 did there would be anotlier paper attached to that. Whose writing is that in? Q. — That is a copy of the report from the Collector's of- fice. A. — It is right enough then if It came from the Collec- tor. Q. — Now did you also file with the Rtglstrar of the port here a cojiy of your registry at San Francisco certifl«'d by the British Consul, at the time you a)»])1led for registry lier«'? A. 10 20 30 40 395 (A. J. Ko«ht«"l—K( direct.) — I wuuld not h(> positivt; what I did do; that is something n<-\v to nie. Tlicre was considorablc running around to do. il. — After you bought tliis ship in San Francisco did not you .ipply for a ccrtiticd copy and have the ('onsul certify a copy of your n gistry at San Francisco? A. — I cannot say. (J. — Did you some bacli here on the ship yourself? A. — Xo, sir. Q. — Did you order her to be sent here? A. — No, I sent her to sea and slie came in here. Q. — Looli at the paper I now sliow you and see if it re- freshes your memory tliat you tiled at the registry office here a certified copy of your registry of the "City of San Diego" at San Francisco? A. — There is no donbt of that I suppose, according to what I see. Q. — Did you attend to the business and take out the re- gistry here yourself? A. — Yes. Q. — You filed the papers and got the registry here? A. — Yes, sir, but I will not say what date it was. Q. — But you did not when it was done? A. — Yes, sir. Q — You attended the filing of the papers and the getting of the registry made? A. — I might have had a broker or somebody to attend to it for me. 1 don't just remember who it was. Redirect examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — I simply want to ask you this question. Ton bought this ship in 1891, and there were certain papers with regard to her and it api)ears she has been transferred tothis city for registry here? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — As a matter of fact did you know anything about the papers requisite at that time yourself? A. — No. Q. — Did you get any person to have the papers made out for you? A. — In San Francisco? Q. — Yes, or in Victoria? A. — Yes, there was a firm I for- get the name of it now, that did the bu:jiness for me. Q. — You employed some person to do the business for you? A.— Yes. Q. — Were they shipping men, or legal men, or what? A. — They were shipping men, I could get their names easily en ough, I simply had the business done and paid for it ind came away. Q. — Did you employ any ])erson in Victoria to complete the transaction? A. — There was some person, 1 believe, who did the writing for me, 1 do no. remember who if was. Q. — Was that a lawyer or a shipping man or what? A. — I Uiink he would likely be a broker. Examination closed. Mr. Peters: — My learne.l friend Mr. Dickinson, has ten- dered in evidence, for som^ porpose, I do not know what, ^he i-egiftry of the ship the "Zity of San Diego," T should think 1 e oufjht to point out in tvhat possible way, tin.' registry of the "City of San Diego can have any efTer' upon thin case? Mr. Dickinson: — I will siiite, of course, ViiiV eutire frank- ness that Mr. Pee htel has, as appears by his testimony, bought the sliip, the 'MJlty of San Diego" in San Francisco. It ap- jtears tliat subseepiently he appeared here and applied for the rey:iMtry and jtresented the deed of his naturalisation papers, it a|ipears that he filed here with the registrar to obtain the it ajtears that he filed with the registrar to obtain Ihe registry, a copy of the registry in his own nam«', taken out by him for the "City of San Diego" in the city of San Francisco. It appears, as we will show Hubseciuenlly. by a statute «)f the Vnited States, nii;,j ■iliii;'; s{ • [ nil hi'! ' '1 :.H m 'I ii 1- u fsl'fnff • ~ ' MiMt that the roffitrtry cannot be obtained, «'Xiej;o has nothind, and which no doubt were signed by the Itritish consul at San Francisco, which states certain facts with ref^ard to this gentleman's nationality. Now, it does appear to me that if we are to try to obtain anything like the best evi- 20 dence, this is certainly not the best evidence that can be ob- tained upon this paricular matter. The man himself is here and my learned friend can ask him these i|ues>ions, or he can ask other people t'lese (luestions. but instead of d«iing that he puts in what is clearly secondary evidence. Some other person says that this gentleman was an American citizen, and some other persons say that he made a declarticm one time. But it is also alleged, here that he owned an American ship, and they assume from that that he could not have been the owner unless he were an American citizen. Surely that 30 is not the iK'st way to i»rove it. 'le (piestion whether a man is an American citizen or not must depend upon certain facts. And when these facts are laid before the Tribunal you will be able to judge whether or not he is an American citizen. He may be an American litizen by birth or l)y naturalization, but there should be evidence to i»rove that, and then the court can judg<' as to whether the allegation is right or not. The mere certificate from another jkm-sou that he did something, whicJi prima facie only an American citi- zen can do is not the best evidence of liis nationality, and 40 more esiK'cially when tl" niiiii is liere himself, and can be examined on that point. I submit, however, that even evi d«>nce as to his birth or nationality is not relevant here at all, and by and by w«' will have something moir to say about that in our final argument. Mr. Dickinson: — I (juite agree that the statement of an other person, that Mr. IJechtel was an Ameiicaii citizen, would not Ih' evidence. Hut whi'ii Mr. Itechtel tiled in a pub lie office that statement of the owiierslii]» of the v«'ssi'l. that 50 statement is his own. He has had the benefit of it, and it is evidence of the fact that he took the oath that 1h> was an American citizen without which, as we shall show, he could not have registered the ship at San Francisco. Now, we do not propose to be juit to the examinaticui of Mr. Itechtel, or to be bound by the testimony (►f .Mr. Muiisie — certainly not by Mr. Hecht<'l for obvious reasons that ap])ear by this rec ord. Hut, If we can show that he has filed a jaiblic state mtint in a luiblic offl any admissions or any statements made in the assertion of his rights of proi)erty, and it will have all the weight of an admission. We assert that if he went to Ban Francisco to be registered there, and tttok the oath that he was an American citizen, and filed that here in order to ' get a Itritish registry, that we an- entitled t(t have that statement, if we can show that he filed it or that it was llh-d 10 397 \ty liis aullioiity in llii; llritiHli Hi'gJMtry OflUo. I do not I»n»nv '.viiiil more iintlu'iifit- testimony w«' can jjt'l in tlit' ab- scnt-c of Mr. Itct-litcl, and under tlu' conditionH of this caHC, wf iir«> cntitU'd to iirocced prt'ciHtdv as if he were alwent, hv- tjinHO we do not proiwse to be bonnd bv his statement on any siib.ji'ft, T!ie t'oniniissioner on vhe jiart of Iler Majesty: — We Hiink i( should be reieived in llir >anie way as other testimony and subject to tlie objection already noted, left for further consideration. Mv. Dickinson : — Tliis is a certified copy, certified by the registrar of shipping at this port on the 11th of December. Received and marked Kxiiibit 2 (U.S.) Claim No. 1. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Will this be filed as an exhibit? Mr. Dickinson: — Yes. sir, I desire to tell the Commission- ers what is in it. Amonf: (lie pajK^i-s so certified is an appli- cation of Mnnsie, of the 2Sth of December, 18!(2, showin}:; the size of the vessel. The (Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — If it is ;;oin}j; to 1h> printed, I think it would be In'tter to give noth- ing more than is necessary to draw attention to what the document is; otlierwise we are duplicating the evidence. Jlr. Dickinson: — Yes. but we have been listening, may it I)h'ase your Lordship, for most of the time we have been in session to certain kinds of jiroof.. The Comniissi(mer on the part of II«'r Majesty: — I merely add that by way of suggestion, Mr. Dickinson. Take yonr own course. The Commissioner on the part o( the United States: — This is a solemn act of citizenship and it is more than a declara- tion. I think we know wiiat it contains. Mr. Dickinson: — r>oes your Honour know what is in the statement? If so, I will file this exhibit and say no more about it. The Commissioner nship of the highest character. The t'oinmissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — From your argtiuient. Mr. Dickinson. 1 have had a jM-etty general idea of what the character of it is, of course, if yoti wish it to go in the notes there would be no objectou. 40 I WA ■m ill -il.,.. i: ifISi i ■, li'M^'l'^H'i'"? '-' '' UlMi") lO 20 3'^ 40 so 60 398 Mr. IMrkiuHon: — I bii.'.i)l,v (li(iiiti;ht it bt'th'i- that it Hlioiild HO into the testimony for what purpose it was for. The Commissioner on tlie part of the United States: — I thought you said you were reading it for the benefit of the Commissioners. Mr. Dickinson: — 1 tfimply want it to go into the notes so that it would be seen from the day's proceedings what tliese documents were. Tlie Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — You had better continue. Mr. Dickinson: — There is a declaration by John A. Hechtel purporting to be signed by liim tliat William Munsie, of Vic- toria aforesaid, is the managing owner of the "City of San Diego?" Exhbit "H" attached to the certificate is a declara- tion of ownership by John A. Bechtel with :> statement that he was naturalized by the proper legislative authority of the Dominion of Canada 49 Vic. Sec. V.i, on tlie 2l8t of April, 1892. There is a certificate of the San Francisco registry certified as a copy by the British Consul at San Francisco in which it was recited ^Exhibit C.) of the paper, that John A. Bi-chtel in pursuance of the regulationf of commerce and navigation, Revised Statutes of the T^nited States, having taken and sub- scribed the oath required by law, and having sworn tlmt he is the only owner of the vessel "City of San Diego" of San Francisco, is himself a citizen of the United States, etc., giv- ing the tonnage of the vessel on the usual registry form, then follows a certificate of suiTcy by Walter Walker of the ctty of Victoria, on the 19tli of December, 1892. Mr. Peters: — 1 wish to point out, so that it may go down on the notes that this document does not contain the declara- tion. The Commissioner on the part of the T^nited States: — That is true, but the certificate is there that he made the declara- tion. Mr. refers: — This is a statement by a third person that Mr. Bechtel made an afBdavit which we liave not before us. Is that to be taken in place of evidence, whien you can get direct evidence on the point. The Commissioner on the part of the TJnited States: — Mr. Bechtel himself presented thes«> papers to tlie Customs House. Mr. Peters: — IJut Mr. Bechtel is not a party to this transac- tion. This is taken ns evidence, not against Mr. Betchel, but against the Queen, or the party really interested, Mr. Munsie. The Commissioner on the part of tlie I'nited States: — Tliat certificate is evidence in any court of the United States, and in a trial for murder on Imard that v»'ssel that certificate alone would be evidence on behalf of the United States, as against the person who committed the murder — it would be evidence that the vessel was owned by an American citizen. Mr. Peters: — That might be all well enough where tlie question in issue was the ownership of that vessel, it might be evidence lliat the jterson wlio committed the murder did soon an .American ship and was under the jurisdicton of the American courts. That is not the (]ue«ti(m in this case. Tlie question in tliis suit is between oflier partt's altogether. Take the strongest case tliat could be put. Sujipose Bechtel sat down and deliberately wrote and swore (o it that he was an American citizen I claim that sucli a declaration c(»uld not he 399 10 20 (Ah'X. MtLt'iiii— Dii'cct.) iiHcd iu thiH cuHe. TUvrv is no question witli Mr. Ueelitvl lien*. The qiieHtion is between other parties altogether. Jlr. FJechtol may not know wliat eonstitntes an American citizen, lie ma.v be one and he may not be one. He may thinli, for iiiHtance, that becaus*' lie Iuim resided for so many years in llie States that that would make ham an American citizen, and bona fide he may have made that aflidarit. The point which the ('Onimisioneis have to make is: Is this man an American citizen or is he not. It is not whether this man, at one time or at another, stated that he was an American citizen. 1 conld understand Ihat If Mr. IJechtel were asked (lie question, and that he said he was not an American citi- zen, these documents iiii(jht be jMit in, not for the purpose of lii-ovina; that the was an American citi/.en, not for tlie jmr- pose of proving that he was an American citizen, but for the purpose of testing his credibility. I would go to the extent of saying that even an affidavit of his, except as against him- self, cannot be used. The rominis:4i(mer on the part of the T'nited States: — Are we not taking np a great deal of time about this. This point has all been reserved. Mr. Peters: — I am aware of that. The (.'oiiimissi«mer on the part of Her Majesty :- Kibilitv of the whole of this evidence is reserved. -The admis- 40 Mr. IVters: — Yes, My Lord, but I wish to put myself on re- cord as making this objection? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — That is not a mere declaration of citizenship, but it is an act of citizenship on his pail. 1 do not ask you to argue on it now, Mr. Peters, but I simply call your attention to it so that at the proper time we can hear yonr argument upon it. Mr. Peters: — 1 wish to make it clearly understood that 1 object to this. The ('(mimissioner on the jiart of Her JIajesty: — It is all icscrved, and it is open fov you to make your argument at a later stage. Captain Alexander McLean, was called as a witness on the jMirt of the I'nlted States, and duly swoni: 'io Direct examination by Mr. Dickinson. Mr. Dickinson: — I suppose my learned friend will admit iluit this is the Captain Alexander McLean referred to in liolli the .\merican and HHtish cases as Alexander McLean. Mr. Peters: — There is an Alexander M m i. : I ir ■1 i^: !i7!"'T'"''7f'WT" IjT HiMt : 400 (Alex. Mi'l.eau— IHroct.) Hy Ml-. DickiiiHon: Q. — Cnptuin. wIh'iv v/viv .vou liorn? A. — In ("iijk' Hi-floii iHliiud, \ovti Kt'otiii. Q. — How iiiaiiv >THi"8 tUd .yo" wiH <>» ♦•>•' eaHterii cchihI? A.— rp until 18S(»! (J. — What about Ih your an*'? A. — I am .'{7 y»'ar8 of nn<'. (j. — In what claHH of boats were you Hailln); on the cuHtvin 10 I'oaHt? A. — Mostly all clnsHcH of Hlil|m. Q. — FIhIiIui; v«'8w>Ih? A. — Yt'H, all claHWH. Q. — You wiTO brought up to that Hoi-t of buHinoHS, wt'rc you not? A. — Yes, hIi*. Q. — What year did you conic to this coaHt? A. — I t-anio years ajjo; in 1884. Q. — l»ld you conio around the Horn? A. — Y»'H, sir. Q. — Where did you come to? A. — I came to San Fran- cisco. (J. — What did you do In San Francisco? A. — I reniaineti 20 then' for a few months. Q. — And then where did you po? A. — I came to Victoria. Q. — At what time did you arrive at Victoria, or alutut what time? A.— I think it was about April, 1880. Q. — What boat, if any, did you first sail out of Victoria In? A. — I sailed on a steamer called th«> "Oertrude." Q. — Where did she ;un? A. — From here to the Fraser river. Q. — How long were you on her? A. — Probably a conple of months. 30 Q. — And then where did you go? A. — I went on the steam- er called the "Sir James ))(»up;las." Q. — Where did she run? A. — She was owned by the Can- adian government. Q. — What position were you in on her? A. — I was mate of her for a while. Q. — She belonged to the Customs Service, I think? A. — No, she was under the control of the Marine and Fisheries Department. Q. — When did vou first commence sealing here? A. — In 40 188.1. Q. — I think you went out in the "San Diego — not the "City of San Diego." A. — Yes, the "San Diego" from San Fran- cisco. Q. — My leamed friend has r»'ad in from on«' of tlu'se books that in 1883 the "San Diego" got 2,.100 seals in Itehring Sen. Who sailed the "San Diego" in 1888? A. — There was a cap- tain on board of her named (^otswell. Q. — Wei-e you yourself on board? A. — Yes, sir. ij. — Were vou engaged in scaling tliat vear on tlie "San 5° Diego"? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — What was her catch? A. — Her catch was somethinj; close on to 1,200. Q. — How much did she catch in Hehring Sea, and liow much outside? A. — I cannot say exactly how mucli was caught outside, but lier catc-li was mostiv in liehring Sea. Q.— Did you fit out the "San Diego" in 1883? A.— No. sir, the owners fitted her out. Q. — In wliat ca])acity did you go on her? A. — I was navi- gator and boat steerer. Q. — What was she equipped for? A. — She was equipped for sealing and walrusing. Q. — How many boats had she got? A. — Three boats. Q. — And guns? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What kind of guns? A. — She had guns and rifles both. Q. — How many men? A. — 13 men. Q. — Did you go out the next season? A. — Y»'S, sir. 60 I J 20 30 50 60 401 (AU'X. MilA'nn -Direct.) ().— Wlint in? A.— A vi'ss«'l calhHl tin- "Favourite." g.— TlwU wiiH in 1HS4*' A.— YcH. g.—WlHT,. di«] .von ontHt? A.— In Victoria. Q.— Wiiat iH tliV tonnage of tlic "Favourite'? A.— Tlio ••!"'avourit»'" waw Honictiiint; liltc 7S or HO touH, I am not Bure wliicli. Q. — Wlio owned tin- "Favourite?" A. — It wum owned by the tirni of Hpriu); & <'*»ni])an,v. (I. — Wlio <-onipoN«Ml tiu' tirni of Hitrin^ & ("ouipan.v? Mr. I'eterH: — I wisli to linow wluit tlie ownerHliip <»f tlie "I-'avourite" Inio to do witli tliis case? Mr. Dicliinmtn: — We want to hIiow wlio outfitted lier. Mr. lVter.><: — I do not want to talie any tedinical ol)jecfion, liiit it seems to me tliis is not at ali in order. Mr. Dii liinson: — I do not want to use tiiis evidence in any fiirtlier caw. Mr. TelerH: — Of courtfe you won't; tlnit is clear. Mr. l>icl;inson: — I conld by K'^'bij? you notice. Mr. TetiTs: — We on our side have, ap Siiv as possible, kept out i'uy evidence re^^arding the vessels in issue befor? tlie Convention. The Coniniissioner on tlu' jtart of the I'nited States: — The "Favonrite" is an issue here. Mr. Dickinson: — She was warned. The Commissioner on the jmrt of the United States:— It is understood, Mr. Dickinson, that we should keep the evi- (h'lce clear from those vessels in issue as far sis possible. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not wish to (jo into any evidence that iiiifilit come up in tlie "Favourite'' case; this witness men'ly iiajipened to be on the schooner, and I wish to ^et from liim. the evidence as to tlie onttittin;;. I will withdraw frrstanding that we should not enter into the case of any vessel in issue here. Mr. Dickinson: — She was not seized, but only warned. Mr. Peters: — In wliich case her outfit would be very ran- ferial evidence. Mr. Dickinson: — This is the year 18>S4 I am asking about. The Commisioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Would not the more relevant iii<|«"<'y be as to the knowledge of this wit- ness, and then as to what would be the ordinary outfit of v('ss(>ls for sealing, without going into the particular ques- tion of details. Mr. Dickinson: — 1 desiro to show this witness's experience, lint at the suggestion of vour Lordship, I will not go into de- tails. Ily Mr. Dickinson: — (2. — The "Favourite" was outfitted and went into the Ucliring Sea? A. — \ot in 1SS4. She was on the west coast t>f \ ancouver Island m 18S4. 2V, i ^r a \:l :.. J m^ Um V.L I: t' iil miVi ifi^'Tfqr; r i! ^^" HiMi 10 30 40 50 60 402 (Alex. Mt'Lfiiii-OiitMl.) il — Hid yoH liiivc any cxia'rieuci' with Jiidlaii IiiiuIi'Ih iu IMKI? A.— V«'8, gif. H. — Ilow many cuiioch liad you? A. — From 18 to 2(1 laii- tU'H ii- — And in tliat yvnr HiOiriiiK Hva wan not <>nti'rcd 1 tiiinii? A. — No. sir, anot4i('r v«'88t'l went to tlic itelirinK Sa, but tlic •Favouritf" did not go. Q.— In IMsr) wliat wi'i-e you doing? A.— 1 sailed from lioif in l.SM. y.— In wliat bliip? A.— Tile "Favouritf." (i. — And wliat liind of a «Tt'W? A. — An Indian cr«'w. Q. — How nniny ninocH and liow many IndianH? A. — I bclifvc tluTt* wcrt* 12 canoca In IHSo. Q. — In 1SK4 and in IMHa wore canocH used? A. — Yen. nir. Hu'W were Honic canocfl uwd. Q. — In tlu'HC yt'ai'H wen* gunH um-d? A. — Tlwrc were Home gUUH UHt-d, y«-H. y.— WImt did tin* IndiauH uHually uhc? A.— At tliat time tliey UHualiy UHed spears. (). — Did von tisli on tlie coaHt as well aH in Retiring H«'a? A.— Yea. (i. — And in 1HH4. the first year, y«»u w<'re flHliing on tlie coast altogether? A. — Yes, sir. (J. — Wliat were ywii doing in IHHt!? A. — I slii])ped here. (i. — In what vessel? A. — In tiie "Favourite." Q. — Did yon go sealing? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you liave (lie fitting out for the sealing voyages? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — In your experience with Indians, do you consider them better or jioorer liunters than white men in boats? A. — Tlwy are i)Oorer; taliing one canoe as compared witli one boat. Q. — Now. did .von seal in 1887? A. — Yes, sir, I w«'nt out Ui tlie vessel in i887. (J. — Do you know of any trading posts on tlie coast in these years, namely, 18Hf» and 1887? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — \Yliat wf'i'e they? A. — There was a trading jiost at lvyu(|uot, anotlier at Ilesiiuiet, juid another at ('layo(|uot. Q. — Did you l.ii(> of them here in Victoria, and other places, and fioiiic <.f ti.em came across from Japan. Q. — Wliat time did you leave the Hehring Sea in the "Mary Fllen?" A. — I canno; exactly say, but probably about the 2((tli or the 2.5111 of August. 1 am not sure. Q. — From your experience wliat would you call the end of the sealing season in l?eliring Sea, in the years 188(5 and 1887"' A. — About the 2(lth of .\iigust, I would consider tli<' end of the sesisoii. 1 used to leave the Sea th«'n. Q. — Why is that the end of the s<'ason? A. — We usually found it so at (hat time. Q. — What stops the season? The weather used to be bad Mild we figured on getting back about the last of August or the IHth of Sejitember, we usually outfitted for that time. Q. — Is it because it is too rough for the small uoats that the season clost s? A. — Of course we could remain there- for a longer time, but probably the weather would not justify us in doing so. I'l 2(J 30 40 5P 60 403 (Alex. .M(l.«'Hii— l»ir<'tt.) {.I. — Tlu' "Miiij KlU'ii" WHH III! AnifHciin mIi1|i? A. — Hlu> wiiH built ill Kail Frniu-iHrtt, hut hIic wiih u liriliHli vchhoI at lliat tiiiK>. Q. — (.'ttuld you K>v(' UH Hoiiit' iHTouiit of ,vour cntrli on tlic •Miiiy Ellon" in IMH7? A.— I tould not poHllivi'ly ntato that. (j. — Voii w«'r<' Hultpoi'iiat'd to hriii); ,vour hookH hen*? WIh'It arc your hookH in tlic caw of tlu- "Slar.v Klh-n? A. — I gave tlicin to Mr. I'l'tt'i-H Konii' tiint' a^o. (). — l>o you know wlicrc tlw lofj of tli*' "Mary Kllt'ii" 1h? .\. — I think it wan in ihc hookH I Kave; tlirri' were Hix or m-vcn liookH. iy — Wlint other hookH hav<> you not to nhow, your tatcln'H. (lie placo wlicrc yon >;ot thciii, the nninhi'r taken and what men were out? A. — Well, that hook there anti the lop Imok. ti. — You Hpoke of five or hIx iMiokn, what are tliey? A. — They are the joiirnalH of the voyage for tlie dlffen'nt vchhcIn. (/— Ih the lot,' of th' "Favonrite" for ISMfi with thewe books ' .\. — Yen, I >;ave it to Mr. I'etei-H with the otlier bookn. I pave tlK' lopH fnun IMH4 t<» 1SS7. Q. — You kept accurate lopw. did you? \.— Y«'H, Kir, very correct, T think. Of courne they aiN' kept for my (»wn uhc, and I did not intend to l>rinp tliein into court. There ih one of (lie Htatenieiits in fliat book for t8S7 tliat in not correct in (lie amount of seaJH Htated there iy — Now, can you refer to any books tiiat are lieri' to pive (he catch of the "Mary Kllen" in 1HS7? A.— For 1S87 in (luit liook it In not correct, but I know within n few BeiilH the nuiulter nlie caiipiit. Q.— Does the lop of the "Mary EUen" show it? A.— No, the number she caupht that year was 2,470. Q.— Thin book, or the lop book, is not corri'ct? A.— That liook is not correct for 1S87. The lop book does not show the iiumher of seals. ii. — What jtart of that lop book do you say is not correct, ("ajitain? A. — From .Ium» to July. Q. — Why? A. — IJecause this part of it was made up from ISSi; from the "Mary Ellen" and was jdaced in this bcMik? I wanted to pet the position she caupht the Heals on in (h»? fair weather prounds in 188 did you mean? A. — The passape from N'ictoria to Hehrinp Sea. Wt' delivered 127 her*', and I think wo pot 1.1!) on the passape up to th" Behrinp Sea. Q. — How many years did you leave the H^'hrinp Sea about the litth or 20th of Aupust? A.— In 188:{ the last lowerinp wo had in tlio Rehrinp Soa was on the 10th of Aupust. In 18S.-) on the 2,'{rd of Aupust, in 188(> (ui the l!»th of Aupust, ill 18S7 on the l!Mh of Aupust, in 1888 on the 19th of Aupust, find in 1880 on the 2.'')tli of Aupust. Q. — You have said you wore in the "Mary Elhn'' in 1888? A. — Yi's, sir. Q. — And you carried Indians, I think? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Two Indians to a caiio«'? A. — Yes, sir. <).— What cri'w did you have in 1880? A.— White men. Q— How many men? A. — I think aliout 2.1 men. ti.— Did you sail in 1800 to the Soa? A.— Yos, sir. If- ^ i! m ^m h 404 I4i)i> lO 20 (Al«'x. Mclicaii — IHirct.) y.— WIk'I-c wtTf ^v,.: iu that ^eai'? A.— 1 was iu a vuhsuI lalled (Ir' ".laiiu'H JIaiiiiltuii Ix'wiH," but I did not go into till' Ut'hriug Hea iu 18'J(». li. — Did you outlit all of tlicsi- Itoatn that ^vou liave told of bt'fort' tlit'y weut out? A. — Y«'8, sir. Q. — And you lilk'd tlu-ui when you had ludiaun, with auioi's, did \ou? A. — Yi's, sir. y. — And wluu you had whiti- uuu you llttt>d tlu'Ui out with boats, did you? A. — Vt's, «ir, I HUpi'i-intcndi-d the work. 12. — Iu 1S!H you wi'i-f out waling? A. — Yes, sir, in the "James Hamilton Lewis." (i.— And in 1S!)2? A.— Yes, on the Sparks." Q. — And in Hehring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — Hut you were sealint;? A. — Y'es, sir i.1. — And in 1M!):{?, what were you on 'Alexander." y. — Sealing? A. — Y'es, sir. Q. — In 1H1»4 wen' you sealiu}!;? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What were you on in that year? A. — Thi' "Bonanza." 40 50 60 schooner "Uose I? A. — The steamer vou 11. A.— The schooner schooner A. — There was one vessel come from Nova Scotia in Q. — And iu lS;(r», what were "F'inina and Louise." ^i. — Did vou ever live in Victoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In what years? A— I lived here from 1884 to 1881). I). — Did your family live here? A. — Y'es, sir. 12. — Are you ac()uainted with the mark(>t valiu' of sealing; \«'ssels in the port of N'itloiia in the y»ars 1885, 188(», ]S.s7 and 1*<88? A. — Yes, sir, some. Q. — Do you know something of the demand for them then? A. — Yes, sir. stly came from San Francisco. (2- — Now. you n incmber. in I88(t. the vessels iu the sealing fleet that 1 will r<'ad to you, and pleas*' tell us where they came from, if you can. Where did the "Mary Elh'u" come from? A. — San Fiancis<(). C2. — Where did the "Thert-sa" c»uue fwm? A. — San Fran (•isco. (2- — Where did flic ".Mfred .\dams" come from? Francisco, origina'lv built in the Kast. (2- — Where did me ".Vnna Meek" come from? Francisco. (2.— .Ml engaged in sealing in 1880 aud L887? sir. in 188."( and 188(!. (2. — Did you know a ship called the "Sierra?" (2- — Wlieie did she conu' from? A. — She was (an ship. 1 think frmu San Francisco. (2. — She was scaling in the year 188(1? A. — I believe she was .scaling in 188(1. t2. — Did you give attention to the purchase of sealing ships, and as to what was going on in I88(i and 1887? .\. — Yes, sir, some. A.- A.- A.- -San -San -Yes, A.— Yes. an Aiueri- 405 (Alex. Mclit'an— Direct.) (i.— Do .voii icmcnilKT I lie "San .Idw"? A.— SIk- was hiiill in San Franrisco. Q.— She was in tlic scaling Heel in 18S(i? A.— Yes. (i.— What waH lici- fonnap'? A.— I'lohahiv between 50 antl (iO tons. ^l- — VVIiat was tlie tonna^'e of tiie "Sv«M'a"? A. — S!ie was a smaller vessel. I cannot say exactly, 1»hI probably about 45 tons. (i.— Where was the "San Die^o"— not the " "Helen HInm" sealing? A.— .\ bout 1S,s(i. I think. Q— What (onnajre was she? A.— About ((5 tons. (i.— Do you remember the schooner "Otter" in the sealiuiT lleet? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— In what \ear was she built. A.— In ISSO I think. . I believi', but I do not know, or cannot say if she was out in ISS«. 40 (i. — She was in the sealing business? A. — Yes. i]. — Where was the "Charles (i. Wilson" from? A. — San Francisco. (i.-What yt-ars? A.— Hefore l.SSS. (i. — When did she enter the sealing business? A. —1 sliould think about l.Ssr>, 1 am not certain. (}. — Do you remeudier about the tonnage? A. — I couldn't c.vaclly say; about 7o I should think. (i.--Well, the "City of San Diego" wjis a dilTerent ship, was .-.'>e? A. — Yes, sir. il- '.'.here did she come from? A. — San Francisco. 50 Q.— Aliout wl'.at tonnage? A.— About 4.' 01; 50. i]. — What year out? A — .She had been oiU since about iss.-). Q. — 'liid subst.,ii m iiHiifiiiiKi B ppql 'fwW^'fW lO 23 35 40 MIM.'i 50 60 406 (Alex. .Mclii'tm- A.- Diieet.) Slio would be abuut 70 or Q. — About wiiiit touuiige? 77 tons. Q. — And what year? /P. — She went out from 1885 on. Q.— The Ak'xandei? A. — Han Francisto. Q. — What tonnage? A. — About 52 tons. Q-— What year? A.— Well, she has been in the business for the last 18 years; I guess 1(5 years. Q.— The Golden Fleece? .-V.— San Francisco. Q.— About what tonnage? A.— 128 tons, I tliink. Q.— And what year? A.— I don't know of her being in the business. Q.— About her being in the sealing business? A.— No, sir. Q— Was she of the class of vessels that could go sealing? A. — Yes, sir; slie is sealing now. Q.— All this class of vessels, I understand you, Captain McLean, are of the sealing class? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— They are tit for sealing? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — As lit as vessels built expressly for that purpose? A.— Yes, sir. Q-— Vessels that come around from Nova Scotia, or from the Atlantic coast, are they ordinary fishing vessels, those with which you are familiar? A.— Yes, ordinary class of fishermen. Q- — And they are fit for B,ealing vessels, are noy v t' A. — Yes, sir, they are. Q. — Do you remember the "La Ninfa?" A. — :•' . is ,1 .san Francisco v<'ssel. Q.— And wlnn out? A.— She has been out since 1886 and 1887. Q.— l>o you remember !h«' "Angel Dollv?" A. — Yes, sir. (J.— What year? A.— That would be 1884 and 1885. ■ Q. — What tonnage? A. — I'erhaps about 45 tons. Q.- -Did you stale what year she was out? A. — She has been out since 1885 I think. Q. — And the 'Laura?" A. — The "Laura'' she has been out too; she is a San Francisco vessel, a small vessel. o ys from the port of origin a^ Hnn I'^ancisco to N'ictoria? A. — That w«tuld dejtend «'onsi>ler- able on (he size of the vessel and number of men it would take to bring her uj». Q. — (live the maximum and minimum. A. — 50 tons, four men ought to biing her nj). Q. — What would be the cost of bringing up a vessel of 50 tons? A.— From ^t2.S5 to l||!250. Q. — Do any of (hese shijis that 1 have mentioned to you have steam auxiliarv? A. — No, sir, I don't believe so. Q. — And dtiring these years the regular tariff for bringing (hem into this port was 'low much? A.--l'robably it wouI(' be about 10 per cent.; 1 could not ^ay exactly what were tl- ■ I'ates at that tijue. Q. — fan you give me, in (he year 1880. the name of any other shii> that came around from Nov Scotia excei)t (he "Palhflnder?" A.— Yes. sir. Q._AVI,a(? A.— A vessel ^ed (he "Lottie Fairchild." Q.— .\bout what ((mnage? .\. - About l\,\ tons. Q. — ^VaH she a sealer? .A— '1 1 "<, sir. 407 (A lex. MciiWUi— Direct.) ?<'s! come around? A. — Slic ciiiun 1HK(!; nhe WiiH oHVicd for Hole 10 20 3° 40 (>0 Q. — And wliat year did she to San Fnuicisco, I believe, in tiieve in .SS(i. {.I. — Did Hhe come here? A. — No, sir, slie came here after- \v.ird8 after she had bwn sealing; that was in 18S7. t^. — Do ,von know of any other ship that came around from Nova Scoiia in 1H8(!? A. — No, not in 1H8<{; tliere may have been some. (I. — Now, (.'aptain McLean, from where was tlie d.'mand for sealing ships mostly HU]iplied in 1880 and 1887? A. — Up to 18S7 from Han Francisco. «i. -You tliink probably nine-tenths of the sealius; ships iij» to 1887 cauu from San Francisco, <»r American ports on tlie Pacific coast? A. — I couldn't exactly way. (I. — A very large proportion? A. — The largest pi'ojjortion came frtty liard to get men to go to sea, and at th" same lime we didn't think it was any ways jtrobable — (J. — You went to Hehring Sea, J think that vear in the "F-\ivorite"? A.— 188(;. yes. Q. — And you laid up the Kate, that is you did not send her sealing? A. — Didn't send her sealing. Q. — Now, was there any shi|»yard devoted to the building of such ships in Victoria in 18S(i or 1887? A.— Well, there were some small yards there, hut they did not make a regu- lar business. (^ — In 188(i, and befo?e, and 1887, were there any ship yards in San Francisco devoted to the building of such ships? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Name them? A. — One was Turner's ship yard; an- c 'XT man by the name of White has got a ship yard, n\\^ Vfirioiis othc's. Q— W-re Ihey exclusively devoted to the building of WX" iliiss of slii]»s? .\. -Yes. sir, of course they built large v<'h si'ls ill ihe lime. Q.— This was in 188« and 1887, was it not? A.— Yep, sir. Q. — How often wer(> you in San Francisco in those vears 1880 and 1887? A.— I used to go down tlu>re myself about ence a year. Q. — Do yo\i know whether or not there was a good suj)- Jily of sealing vessels, or vessels which could be used for sealing, of the class (hat vou have testified to, in 1880 and IS87? A.— Yes, sir. ■,H)j i ^ 1 i' ! i 1 .' r ' :iii.i^ 'ill 'J ';ti;'thi» '' ' i ! liii'! IP ■"■'■i'S '.'■"■ 'i -4 'I If m ^^ 408 : :'H HiMi lO 20 30 40 50 60 (Ah'x. .M«I.iiv«t.) Q.— Was tlu'i'o any dilliciilty in buying vossi'ls in tlu; jiort of San Prancisro? A. — It dcpcndt'd on tho claHS of vosboIh ii IRTSon wanti'd. Q. — Hut tlu'iv was no difllculty in buying wliat a person wanted, was there? A. — Enoup^Ii from 50 to KM) tons. Q. — An abundant supply to fill any demand, was there not? A. — I should thinli so. Q. — Both of new and second class? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know of vessels beins bought there for sealing purposes? A. — Yes, sir, I have Ixnown some. Q. — About what was tlie cost, if you know of this class of ships built new at San Francisco? Sir C. H. Tupper:— What year? Mr. Dickinson r—lt'SO and 18S7. Witness: — That depends larg<'ly on the materials used in the vessel. Q. — Now that reminds nw; all thes(> ships lo which I have called your attention, from San Francisco, of what were they mostly built? A. — I'rincipally of piije. Q. — What kind of june? A. — Oregon i»ine. Q. — Do you know of any vessel being turned out of this class at (he fhiy, yards at San Francisco built of anything «'lse than Oregon pine" A. — Tliey nsed some hard wood among the Oregon pine, which would cost more. Q. — Hut as to the majority of tliem, give us some projtor tion of the vessels you have named, that are built of Orcg(u> pine? A. — A new vessel of that kind would i)robaVily <:«• built at flOO a t(m, ready for sea; would average that sum; of course there might lie a few dollars over or under. Q. — Why do you say ready for sea; just t»'ll us what that lnclud«'s, if you pleas*'? A. — That would be a vessel in s«'a worthy condition, witli everything aboard except the ship's stores Q. — Does it include the galley funiiture for instance? A. — Yes. sir. i}. — And the stove? A. — Y«'8, sir. (J. — And the rigging? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Sails? A. — Yes, sir, Q. — Extra sails for the voyage? A. — Yos, sir. Q. — Extra ro])e for the voyage? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — All extras to fit her out in a seagoing condition? A. — In a seaworthy condition, everything excepting the ship's stores. Q. — And you include in ship's stores, what, Captain Mc- Lean? A. — Provisions. Q. — What about the repairs on a ship, ]>iitting in new planks wliere they were r«»tten, is that jmrt of the equipment for sea, or repairs? A.— rutting her in a seaworthy condi tion. Q. — What about the compass? A. — A part of the ship, sir. Q. — The chnmometer? .\. — Some masters carry their own chronometers, and they are sometimes furnislied by the own ers. Q. — When furnished by tlu' owners, is i1 a part of the shijt? .v. — Yes, sir. Q.— Is there anything you think of that can be done to n ship when she is fitted foi' sea, except the stores, that is not a jmrt of the sliip? A. — For sealing? Q.— \o, fitting her out for sen gen<'rally? A.— Well, she ouglit to be in first class seawortliy condition, not requiring anything else except ship's stores. Q-— N'ow, d(» you rememl)er any sales of sliips in VictoHn in IHSr. or just prior to 1HS({ fitted for sealers? A.— I believe there had been several changes made here in seagoing shijis. 10 20 469 (Ah'X. Mc-Li'uu — Uii'Pct.) ii. — Do you know nnylhiii^ ubout (lu' wih", for liistiiiu-t', of (he Mar.v Ellen? A. — Yt's, sir. (). — Hlie WUH ii sliij), I think you have said, of about 80 toiiH? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wlieu was slio sold? A. — Hhv was partly sold in '84, and then a{;;ain in 188(i. Q. — At what rate was she sold? A. — I believe something less than |45(l(). Q.:— And what was her age about? A. — I believe be- twwn 18 and 20 years; I couldn't say exactly. I think h'ss than 20. Q. — She was built of Oreijon j>ine? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And when she was sold, did they include her sails? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — (lood condition in every way? A. — Pretty fair con- dition. Q. — Did that include her boats? A. — Boats and whole sealing outtit. Q. — It included her in seaworthy condition, and her s<»al- infi outfit? A. — Of course she would not be in a seaworthy condition if she had had to go on the dock to be overhauled. Q. — And what was the sealing outfit included at that I»Hce? A. — That would be boats, guns, and extras for re- Iiainng guns, and so forth, Im-ks. (i- — 1)0 you know anything about the sale of the "Moun- tain Cliief" along about 1880 or b«'fore? A. — The "Moun- tain Chief" I think was sold about '83 or '84. (i. — Whei-eabouts? A. — In Victoria. Q. — \Vhat did she bring? A. — I couldn't exactly say; I have been told that it was something less than |500 at the time. (i. — She has a tonnage of only about 20, I think? A. — I believe she is something like 20. Q.— You state the "\V. P. Sayward" was sold? A.— I be- lieve a jmrt of lu'r was transferwMl; an interi'St in her. ii. — In what year? A. — I think she was built in '82; I iM'lieve it would be since '82; I don't exactly know what year it was. Q.— Between 1882 and 1887? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — What was she rated at? A. — I bt^lieve the vessel would ])robably be worth at that time about fOSOO. Q. — How was she rated in the sale? A. — I think some- thing like $0000. Q. — What was her tonnage? Mr. Peters: — This is one of the vessels in dispute. Mr. Dickinson: — I get the vessels wiirned and seized con- 50 fused. We will stop right here and all niav be stricken out iibont the "W. P. Savward." 30 40 Ii ill m * Ml] ■■■< :m\ ii m i'i ■'• :;n:!i«!(iv'! iiii:,, i m-u i ' ! iiiii Q- — .\bout what was her tonnage, the "Favourite?'' A, — I think something like 80 tons. Q.— And about how old was she in I88fi? A.— In 1880 I should think sIk; would be less than — I couldn't say exactly, jierhaps 18 or 20 yeais. I guess her registe. would show. ii- — And do you know of lier being sold? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Do you remetnber what she was sold at? A. — Yes, sir; she was sold at the rate of f 3,000. Q. — With her rigging? A. — Yes, sir. Q- — Kfjuipped for sea? A. — Just as she came in from sea. Q.— How about the "Kate?" A.— She was sold in 188(!, or transferred part of her ownership. Q.- At ,vlat rate? A.~At the rate of |1,800. Q- — What was her tonnage? A. — I think about 00 tons; I am not iM'rfectly sure. ij !!I!I;r: mm Trn-TT uvu 410 (Alex. McLean — Direct.) Q. — Tlie "Kate," yon Hay, was sold iit lKS(i? A. — Ves, sir, at th(! (liHHoluliun of partiier.sliip. One i»artner bought in the ve«8el. Mr. Peters: — Mr. iiiclvinson is now {join;; into several of tliese eases, for inslanee the Alfred Adams. That vessel was seized and ran »iwa.\ with the prize crew, and the case came ,0 »]) afterwards in tiiat way. Wlien the case comes to ho tried the valne of th<' "Alfred Adams'" will be a matter that will have to be tried ton certain extent, although perhaps not so fnlly as tlioiiyli we claimed the value of the shij). Per haps it is ratlier lakiiift np the time to inquire into it now, as it must be inquired into lu-reafter. Mr. Diddnson:— Let us set, may it please your Honours. The ships that were seized, of course, and sold, and never re- turned by the Tnited States, their value will be the subject 2Q of imiuiry, of <,(»urse- but s'.ips t'nr were merely warned, and were not taken by the L'uited States, the question of their value cannot be primarily in issue, it seems to me; and it is necessary for me to show, m answer to the Hritish case, soniethint; about the nmrket for shi4)s here. As it happens, some of the shijts that were warned were boujrht and sold in this niarket, and it is the best evidence that we can pro- duce — the prices at which ships were bou|;ht and sold. The cost of shijm, as I had the honor to state to the Commission- ers in the course of an argument when my fri>iid was puttin;; 30 in 'lis lase. is not the question; the (piestiii is the markt* value. The way to prove market value is to prove sales and purchases. To do that I will necessarily flnd that ships that had something to do with this case had been bou>?ht and sold. Indeed, this has already been shown. .V vast majority of the ships in Iteluing Sea, and a vast nuijorit.v, I think, of the vessels that were seized, were American vessels. As the case is comini? up here all are Hritish vessels, and mostly owned here in \'ictoria, in ordi.'r to show market valne by ])urchases and sales it would be necessary to touch one or 40 more of (hese shijis, tarefully avoidin<;, however, according to the intimation of the Commissioners, going into the question of value as to any ship that was actually taken by the T'nited States, for which the United States may be liable for its full value. The (Commissioner on th.e part of Her Majesty: — Afr. Peters, the value (tf this vessel is not a material ino part of th':" FnittM] Mtati'H: — In llic ciiHc «>f t\u' "AI'fiH'd Adams" d«» yt»u <'laiin demurrage (ir aiiythiii.u for the 1ok« of tlu- uw of ilio ship? How dtiew llic value coiiu' into thi' caw in any way? Mr. P('t<'r8: — Wo do i-laini tlie loss of the use of the ship; but in many of the cases — 10 The Commissioner on the part of the t'nited States: — Let us take one case at a time. I have only not the case as laid Ix'fore the I'aris (Jommissicm. There is no claim for the use of the ship. Mr. Peters:— I find that the case of the "Alfred Adams" Himply shows tliat we claimed that the prosecution of the voyage of the "Alfred Adams" in 1887 was prevented. The Commissioner on tlu' i)art of the Ignited States: — I 2Q think counsel »tn both sides have been anxious to keep within the rule. It was not laid down as a hard and fast rule, any- way. Mr. Peters: — I do not wish to jjn^ss the objecti'>n to any urcatcr extent than this, that if my learned fiiend goes into I lie sale of this particular vessel, we reserve ourselvtni the right to show in rebuttal the circumstances under which such sale was made. 30 40 50 r.o The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — If you will allow me to make a little sugfjestion ; it occurivd to me the other day — I have not talked witli my friend and as- sociate about the matter — if you are i!;oin{j on in these cases to jirove the value of these other ships, it is impossible for tliat evidence to come in here without inliuencinff our judfj- iiienf about this ship. We are human, any way. The rule (IcM's not allow you to use in this case testimony which arises in any subsetjuent cases; and it may be the transactions al)out those vessels will be the best way to get at the value of this particular vessel. Now, would it be practicable, in soiiie way or another, to make some sort of an agn-ement or iindcrstandinfj;, that evidence which is otfercd as to sales of the other vessels which an- now excluded, when they are taken up, may be used with reference to the valuation of this vessel, for example. I make this suggestion without in- tt nding to detain counsel at all now. Mr. Pet«'rs: — Wlu-n my learned friend, Mr. Dickinson, and myself agreed upon these rules originally, my tii-st suggestion was that the rule should be that we use evidenc*' in a subse- (|Ufnt case in prior cases, liv suggested that we slumld have it sometJiing in tlu- form it is now. My idea was that it would be bett«'r in a subsequent case, where I found the evi- dence proiM'rly applicable to a case befoi-e, that I should sim- jily state that I intended to apply it to the i)rior case; but that did not seem to m«H't his a]>proval at the time. It was a mere matter of sugg«'stion between us. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — .\s ii general ruh", when trying «ach case by itself, that would seem to be impracticable, because when you are trying this ruse you would not know what you were trying, nor what your case was. The defence would not know what the case was, and neither would the rebuttal. I am looking at this mere questiim of values. Of course everybodv knows that we cannot hear th»>se cases about other vessels without hif ing an im]iressis, sir, she was sold here. Q.— About wluit time? A.— About "sr) or '8fJ. (■i. — And^do you remember at what she was sold? A. — No, sir, I do not know tin- rate. Q. — The "l{lack Diamond"? A. — She was sold about the same time; nuiy be a little later. (J. — Do you remember the little "Triumph"? A. — I do not know ; 1 believe she chaujjed hands. Q.— The "Juanita?" A.— She was sold. Q. — Do you remember tlu' rate? A. — No, sir. Q. — Do you remember the sale of the "Lottie Fairchild? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Where was slu; built? A. — She was built in Nova Sc(»tia, Yarmouth. Q. — She was a Nova Scotia boat? A. — Yes. air. Q. — A good one? A. — A very jjood vessel. Q. — What was her ajj;*'"' A. — |{etwe«'n four and live vears. Q.— That is iu 1MS(!? A.— No, in 1.S87. Q. — What was her lonnaKe? A. — She was l(i4 tons. 40 Q- — I*t> ,v<)u know whether she was olf«'red for sah' in Vic toria? A. — Yes, she was ofl'ered for sale here in the fall of 1887. Q. — Were there any purchasers? A. — N*;, sir. Q. — She was finally sold? A. — Slu' was sold in San Fran- cisco. Q. — At what rate? A. — I couldn't say what rate. I think about ?(i,()(M»— J|!0,.')(K>; she was offered here for f<5,0(IO. Q. — I think you jjave her tonnage at 1<>4? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Was she a well built vessel? A. — She was a w<'ll built 50 vessel. Q. — And a good one? A. — Yea, sir. Q. — Siiils, rigging and everything included? A. — Yes, sir, everything; just as she came in from the sealing voyage. Q. — Now do yo\i remember the bigger "Triumph" whicli came from Nova Scotia? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What was her tonnage? A. — I beli«'ve she is about 100 gross; I am not sure within a few tons of it. Q. — By the way, did the "Fairchild" have any boats or 60 sealing equipment wlien she was sold on her? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — The larger "Tiiumith" was built in Nova Scotia, wasn't she? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — About her tonnage? A.— About 10(1; I am not sure. Q. — Do von remember her age? A. — She was built in 1887. Q. — And whar was sold with her? A. — I believe she was put in good condition. 10 2J -,o 4^ io 60 4>3 (Ah'X. M«l-»'jiu— IMiHct.) Q. — Was iiiiylliinti; Mold with licr, iiuliidiii}; boatH and ^tiim? . — siu> waH Hold ill tlic (>aHt and bron^lit ronnd witliout boatH and K""^' *'X*'t'ptiiiK >*I>>I* boatH. (2. — Tliis. I tliink, wan one t)f your boats, wasn't it? A. — No. my l)rotin'r'H. il. — Do yon know what sbc cont? A. — I conldn't say as to I lie exact tijinres. (J.— Well, wli.it did Nile Hell here for? A.— I wasn't here ill the time, but I believe it was between eiplit and nine thou- sand dollars. .Mr. IVtei'K: — How in the world ean a man fjive evidenee when he says he was not hero at the time. Kurely we eonid irlvc the same evidence ourselves. Tlie Commissioner oii the jiart of Her Majesty: — That is not conipetent. unless it is proved. Q.^— How did you learn this"? A. — Through my brother, by a letter he got from his other partner. The Commissioner on the ])art of Her Majesty: — I would nut rely on such evidence as that. Mr. Peters: — I think that should be stricken out. (The above evidence relating to the last-named vessel stricken out.) (2. — You can ascertain in N'ictoria what she was sold for'/ .\. — I suppose I could. (i. — Who bought her? A. — Cox & Marvin. (■i- — Where is your brother? A. — In Central America. i]. — He is the man that sold her, is he? A. — No, sir. g.— Who did sell her? A.— 1). C. IJaker. 0.— Was Mcl^ican a jiart owner then? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — And IJaker was his partner? A. — Yes, sir. *}. — The "Mollie Adams" was about what tonnage? A. — About 12s, I should think. Q. — Was she sold here? A. — Yes, sir. 12. — .Vnd who bought her? A. — Marvin & Cox. (i.— Here? A.— Yes, sir. (i.— Did you know the price? A. — No, sir; I did not know I he exact figures. ? A. — Yes, sir. 0- — What dii»h I ask my learned friend to ]irodnce. (To witneHw) Can yon tijjure it from tlmt li(M>k, tlie fair weather catch? \. — i did not hnnt on any fair weather ^ronnds in 18S(!. (i. — Then yon have a different catch called the coast catch? .\.— Yes. Q. — There is what y; Sea catch, when tlwy come in here. ii. — Ciin yon tell ns the coast <'ntch without your lofj, fntm tliis hook? A. — Yes, sir. 30 Q. — ^Vill you {jive us the const cati-h, if you can? A. — AM. I believe, up to the i:$th of .May, ISSti. iy — Now. is there anythin;i; outside of that coast catch for tliat year? A. — Yes. sir. from July !)tli until Aufjust ^Otli. (i. — All coast catch? A. — No, sir, Hehrinfj Sea catch. The ('ommissi; ■! !!■ Commissioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Thambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 12, 1896. At lO.JJO the Comiiiissioners took their seats. Direct examination of Captain McLean resumed by Mr. Dickinson. (i- — You were {jiving us the catch of the "Favourite," I liiink, in 18H(>. outside of Hehriuf? Sea? A.— Outside of Ileh- iin; jimt nlw \\w Imlaiu-c? A. — -ll!) on tli(> <'()iiHt, '2'2T>'.t in ItclirinK Hca. Q. — Now, CapCain, Im»w lat*' woro von in lU'liiinf; St-a in AiijiUHt? A.— In lSH(i? (i. — Yj'h, Hir. A. — I iuivi' the daU-K of (li-Ht low«'rinn an tli-Ht lowt'i-in^' in lHS(i, and An^UHt liltli \h tli*> laHt lowering. Q. — Can .v(tn tell ns the nnniluT of lowt'i-in^H in the niontli of An^nHt in nnikinR thaf catch? A. — Five i-c^nlar lowiT- infTH in Au{;nHt. Q.— And what wan the catch of AnjjnHt in this 2!l(»(l and odd in Itch ring 8ca? A.— r»7r>. Q. — And the l»ahinc«' of the catch waH talicn between the !»th of July and I he iHt of Angust? A. — Vch, hIt. Q.— Now with reference to the "Maiy KUen" in 1HM7, will yon jdeaHe itiv<' uh the Fair Weather catch; I think there was mnne confiiHion about it yenterday? A. — On the Fair- 20 Weather groundH? (i.— YcH A.-That waH i;«». (). — And the balance of the catch — you fjave the total catch, I think? A. — Vch, nir; tliere wum SU7 before tlu' vch- Kel h'ft tlie |»ort here. (i.- That iH included in tlie total? A. — Yes, sir, that is includt'd in the total. (i.— And what Ih the total? A.— L'4)t)i. Q.— In the Hea? A.— No, that is the total, sir. (J— That included the .S(M> you had Kiven and the 1(14? A. 30 — Yes, sir. H- — So that your total cntch was how much'' A. — '24'Mi. (i.— And the total catch in IVhrinf; Hea? .* IS.-M*. Q. — Hetwet'U what dates were yini in Bt'hrii ■? A. — July IHth until Autli. I have been there as late as September. (J. — Did you have any sealing in Sejytember? A. — Y'es. sir, we had some. Q. — Was that exceptional, renuiining over iintil Septem- ber? A. — Yes, urusual. Q. — I believe I did not ask you in regard to the "Active.'' Do you know tlu- schooner "Active?"' A. — Yes, sir; she was in Victoria here some years ago. Q. — Where was she from? A. — She was built up here in ^ British Columbia. Q.— Built of this Douglas pine? A.— Yes, I believe so; I am not perfectly sure, though. Q. — Did you know the ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I would like to ask you a qu«'stion T have omitted. What is the concern at Sim Francisco which deals in ships? A. — There is a tirm there, TT. Liebes & Po. Q. — Wliat is 'ts business? A. — Fur business. SO lo 20 30 40 S^ 60 417 (Ali'X. MiLfim— UiicH.) (j. — And doi'H it ilf:il in HliipK, in tlu> furlniNinfHK, and Bonl- iiij{? A. — YvH, Hir; it um-d lo. il — And in it tiic liifbt'H & Co. tlim di'iiln alont; tlie couHt lii'iT from lu'io 10 Itt'lirin;; Hca? A. — Tli«'y ""''d l«» buy fui'H lu'ic; alMo iiad vchmcIh of tlirir own out. il- — Will .voii pleaKc Htatr wln'tln'r ,von havo acted for I.IcIh'h & ("o. in llu' cxaniiiiation of v»'h.scIh for purt-liaHc? A. — VcM, sir; I liavc. (i. — Von have b«'('n t-niploycd for that pnrpotu', have v. Q.— f:{,8(K» or ^:{.4(M»? A.— I was told |.1,8()0. ti. — Who told you so? A. — The owner of the vessel. Q. — Who was Ihe owner? A. — lie was Thomas Earle. (i.— Who did he sell to? A.~Outtman & Co. Mr. Peters: — Surely the statement that the owner of the Nliil» told him he paid so much for the vessel cannot be admis- sible. Mr. Dickinson: — I desire to say a word on that more flian I said, and I said nothing, yesterday. _ If we understand the rule, may it ph>ase your Honours, as to when, what is called in the text books of evidence secondjiry or hearsay evidence may be put in, having fjeneral knowledfje of the market, we can always jtrove by an experienced man who has had to do with the purchas(> and sale of ships, and who has been de- voted to tile business, the current sales by repute in the mar- ket. We submit that this is so, on the question of value where iliat question comes up collaterally in all courts, English and .\merican. I will concede — and of course I would not stand for a moment to contend — that we could show the price of the "<"arolena," for instance, if she had been sold by this witness, and where the (piestion of the v.'ilue of the "Caro- Iciia" for recovery was in issue; but where we are seekinj; to establish a market and the sah's of other ships, to show that otlier sliips have been sold, and what prices they broujjht. iiny one familiar witii the market can tell, subject to cross- ixaniination to show the unieliability of the witness, either fioni llu' fact -n his incompet«Micy in not beinji familiar v.th liie market or from his testimony, that he could not havt^ Ix'cu in a jxisilion to know. Of course if we were seeking to show the sale of the "Cai-oleni'" at some i>rior year, we will sMV for illustrali,- it. Mr. Peters: — In answer to that: This gentleman is brought here to give evidence as to the value of vessels — I presume as an expert to a certain extent. Now when he conies to give evidence as an expert it is very well for him to give evidence of certain facts and what his opinion as to the value of cerlaiu vessels may be; but when he comes to go beyond that, and, because he is an expert, to give evidence as to facts, that is ditferent. He is asked: Did the owner of this vessel say so and so? My learned friend says we can cross-examine about that. What can we cross-exam- ine about? All I can get out of him on cross- examination is to show whether the owner told him that or not, and that is not material here. The nuestion here is. what did the vessel sell for, and that can be proved by the owner; that can be pr«»ved as a fact; and because this man has some exi»erience about vessels it does not in any way make his evidence any stronger as to a fact of which he has no personal knowledge. Mr. Dickinson: — Suppose, may it please your Honours, it became material to establish the price of wheat at Liverpool on a given day. We certainly would not be required to produce 30 the man who saw the money passed. We would show by a man familiitr wi(h the wheat business what is known in the trade as the price at Liverpool. We could show — and it would not be as strong evidence- as the oral testimony of a nuin on the stand — the prices <-urrent and in use in the trade. That would be inferior testimony to that of a man in the trade, not interested in the controversy, and who testitied as to tlie market. The fallacy of my learned friend's jtositiim, if you will permit me to say so, is that the (piestion liere is not this witness' o])iiiion of values of these olhei' ships, but. what is the market value? That is the true criterion on which the (|uestion of the value of the "Carolemi" turns — what is her market value? Testimony has been admitted here, as hav- ing some teiidiMicy to show value, of the cost of a ship; and the cost of a ship at Xova Scotia has even been admitted, for the reason that ihe «'videnc«' of market, on the theory of my learned friend here, was not at hand, for the place here at N'ictoria. So we have gone across the continent, established a value at Xova Scotia, and added to that tlu> cost of bringing the vessel here, so as to establish a market value, and solely 5° for (hat purpose. IT« re we show by a witn<'ss. who has been accust«imed to the trade since sealing commenced, the ac- tual sah's of vessels; that liis attention is constantly given to it, and has been all tliese years; that he was. at the time fii- miliar with the wliole fleet of vessels, American and Kritisli, engaged in th" sealing businens; familiar with the dates, as he has disclosed, of Ihe origin of vessels, building; familiar with Ihe facts as to their changing hands. Now it is ci'ar that (he practice in the courts of (he I'nKed States and the courts of (his country is the same upon (his |ioin(; and, (lierifore, there being a fair difference of opinion upon it, we will ill aicordance with our usual jilan. red in our courts rather in snp[H>rt of tlu' t»'stimony of the expert, to show his extent of knowled!?e and sources of knowledge, and so forth and so forth. I reii."niber that there are some cases, and I think, as I told my learned ass(», I am not sure which. ti.— And sold for !j!;{,8(l(»? A.— Yes, sir, that is what I am informed by the owner that built In-r. (J. — And will you pl<>ase stat<' what went with the "Ac- live." what was sold, what equipment went with her? A. — Well, she was supposed to be in a seaworthy condition; she was a new vessel. (i.— Sails and tackh'? A. — Sails, tackle and anchors. ii. — And the usual accoutrements and paraphernalia? A. —Yes, sir. Q — Any of the sealing outfit go with her? A. — Not as I know of. ()f course I never examined (he vessel, 1 expected of «'ourse she was ready for sen. Mr. Dickinson: — I suppose (hen, may i( please your Hon- oms. (hat the testimony of this same chiviacter as to the "The- resa." which was siricken out yes(erday, may s(and? Tile ("ommissioner on (lie pari m Hie I'litcd States: — "So, lliiU s(ands enlirely diiferent. Thai was information wliii'h Hie widiess got in a foreign coiini > by a letter from his linidicr. who knew nothing abo',' Mie matter excejit hy liearsiiy. Mr. Dickinson; — 1( was his business to find out what that l")a( sold for. Co Tile ("omniissioner on (he part of the Unite*! States: — Of course we are acting here wi(liou( an exami'.Ki'.iou of aiiih- iiiKies; bu( my learned associa(e yielded radiei (o my ini picssioii as (o wlia( I had witnessed as (he pracdce in onr c()nr(s. The pracdce in our couris. in connection with (he iisliiiiony of exper(s, has been (o jiermii (hem (o s(a(e as (o s.iles of vessels and nn'rchandise on (he open market, under Mich circumstances (lia( they had almos( primary knowledge "'Idle transaction. K has no( been adniKted even there for ,|0 50 1 if i 1 1 m : 1'' Uhi ^^h>\ m 1 'II: m 1 .; 1 - 1 n! ij '■■•■' .1ft i-'H ;li rn- 420 (Alex. McLwin — Dircrl.) Ilu" purpoat' of i»roviiiK wliat jutually took pliice, l»nt siinpl.^ as snpportiiip tlie ti'stiinonj of the exix'i't as to tlic value which h(> gives with leferciuv to the property directly in issue. 1 do not linow but what the rule may ro furtlier, hut we are without any authorities here; and, as I say, my learned as sociale yielded to my recollection of the practice as I have witnessed it in court. 'O Mr. Dickinson: — I siin]>ly wanted to call n\> the case of the "Theresa," b<'cause I intend«'d to call it ui> and say a few words yesterday, which I did not do as your Honours r«'meni- her, I did not present any views from our standpoint as to the competency of the testimony. The Commissioner on the part of the rnited States: — I do not know bui the hite editions of (Sreenleaf on evidence, and other authorities, niuy sustain you; but, so far as I re- member, this testimony, would be entirely outside of any- 20 thing we intended to admit. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not mean to insist on having contents of his brother's letter go in; but the (piestion came uj) liow he knew, and he mentioned (hat, and I pursued the matter no further, thinking I would call it vip when opportunity of- fe>'(-d. The Commissioner on the pari of the I'nitcd States: — Fo' exampl«>: Mere is 'ere you away from the coast at the time of the sale of the "Theresa?"' A. — I think there is a misuuder- slanding about the "Theresa" and the schooner "Triumph." Q. — What misunderstanding do you refer to, captain? A. — .My brother never had anv connection with the schooner "Theresa." (i- — It was the "Triumph?" A. — It was the "Triumph." (i. — It was the "Triumph" as whicii you stated something with regard to her sale yestc n.iy when your testimony was stricken out, where you sp(tke of a letlir from vour brother? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, were you out of the country or away from the coast when the "Triumph" was sold? A. — Yes, sir. (.1 — Where were you? A. — I was in San Francisco. (i. — The "Triumph" as you \inderstood it was sold \\\) hei'e? A. — Yes, sir. il — You said your brother was in South America, did you not? A. — He was in San Francisco at that time. il. — In your experience in sealing you have employed can- oes frequently? A. — Yes, sir, at limes. Q. — Will you please stale whether the use of canoes with while men was as advantageous as the use of canoes with Indians, ov o you know of any large catches being made of run- ning seals, seals awake we will say? A. — They kill a good many seal that is awake. Q. — What are the chances of losing an awakened seal? A. • — There are a good many elmnces. Q. — I sup{)ose a sleeping seal you come up upon very close, so they can be gaffed before sinking? A. — Yes, sometimes and sometimes they get away after being shot. Q. — Even a sleeping seal? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And if the seals are awake, is the distance longer from which you must shoot? A. — Yes, sir, but sometimes you get a chance shot when they are very close to the boat. Q. — That is rather exceptional, is it not? A. — Very rare. Q. — Now supposii there are an abundance of seals In the Sea at the place wliere you are, in your ship or schooner, does it follow that merely because the seals are there you will get them? A. — No, sir. Q. — Do you know in tiie matter of sealing whether the scent of .your approacli has anything to do with awakening the seals? A. — Oh, yes. Q. — now far will they scent the approach of a man .n your «'xi)erience? A. — They can scent a man or a boat, further than they can see. Q. — So that in ai)proaching does the direction of the wind have anything to do with it? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And how do you aj)proach, when you can do it in hunt ing for seals? A. — Oinerally aitprotich from the leeward. If they approach from tTie windward, 8om«'times they have to lake chances. Q. — What is the effect, if they note the approach of man, upon the seal herd- A. — They will wake and leave. Q. — ITow fast will a seal make way to escajte? A — Well, it is i>retty hard to say. They can travel very fast for n short distance. Q. — And what average rate will they keej) up? A. — Well, if they want to, they can go faster than a boat. Q. — And keep it up all day? A. — Not nil day, no, sir. Q. — Their food supjdv is fish, is it not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you find fish in tlieir stomachs? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And what sort of lish? A. — Well, there is salmon and different kinds of small Q.—They catch them in the Sea? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Now the passing of other boats, and the use of gtins, what effect d(»es that have tipon the school, if yon find them? A. — If there Is much shooting going on It nuikcs them wilder. 10 20 30 40 i;i) Co 423 (Alex. Mfljean — Direct.) Q. — If aiiothor ship Iiuh paBsed over, or slumtiug is ^oiii}; on they are awalcened? A. — Yes. sir, if vessels are around tiiey get wild. i}. — If they get wild can you get them? A. — Some, but not as many us if they had not been frightened. Q. — And I think you have already stated that where tlu'y are already wakened, and shot at a distance, there is dnger of losing them? A. — Ves, sir; sometimes they get away from new men after being shot. Q. — And will they sink? A. — Well, they get away, and probably they may die afterwards. {}. — What eifect has rain upon the seals when you find where they ai-e — heavy fain? A. — Well, hesivy rain disturbs I hem; it depends on the weather that they liad before the rain eame. If it has been fine weather, it will disturb thetn more, they will not rest wo well. If it had been blowing be- fore the rain they will sleep pretty well. Q. — Does the awakening of a few of the seals, the disturb- ance of a few, tend to awaken the others? A. — Well, that depends on the distance they are apart. Q. — Although a man may be a good shot at a mark, or shooting game on land, does the question of the experience of a man in hunting seals have anything to do with the number he gets when he finds seals? A. — Yes. Q. — In what way? A. — In the way he approaches a seal beore he shoots him. (J. — (live the rommissioners some idea of the way? A. — All seals don't act alike, some act different. A man has got to have considerable experience. It takes probably three or four months before he understands how to a]iproach a seal I)roperly. Q. — And what is the proper way from your experience to approach a seal, and what tlie danger of losing him when you see the seal? A. — That depends on the action of the seal at the time, all seals don't act alike. Some hunters they can tell how to approach the seal; they can tell when they 8«'e him a certain distance off, whether they are going to get near to him to shoot him; tell by his actions whether he is asleep 8 the weather have upon the seals, even if your boats will live in the sea? A. — Well, if it had been fine weather and the seals were rested pretty well, and if theiv was bad weather approaching, the seals get restless. Q. — The coming stonn makes them restless? A. — Yes. .sir. (i. — That is a modification of your chances to get seals? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — And what is the habit of the seal, when he becomes wild before a storm, how does he appear differently when not <1islnrb«'d? A. — Well, he moves. ii. — Has the experience of the captain of a vess«'l anything l<> do with the size of the catch for the season? A. — That is very hard to say. Q. — The experience of the captain in sealing? A. — I do not wish to state that. Q. — Is that because of yonr modesty? A. — No, I have been Ml sea a good deal — Q. — Hut I would like to know; let me see. Has the cap- Iain's judgment. becauHo of his exj)erience in seal hunting, m 1 •!■;. Ill 1J ■! I !'< Si.' ilM' - : it' HiilE- ,!i! .'I: f-.'li"f!"'iwr- lilMu', lO 20 424 (A l(>x. McLean — I >irt'et.) nn.vtliinp; vessel in all directions, and the white hun- ters generally sail ahead of the vessel in small boats. Q. — And go away from tlu> vessel instead of about her? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What in your judgment, from your experien<'e, is the 50 comparative value in sealing of canoes, to boats? A. — It will take more than two canoes to compete with a good white hunter. (i. — You mean with Indians in it? -v. — Yes, sir. Q. — To compete with a white hun(er in a boat? A. — Yes, I have found that to be so, and have heard it from other v»'s- sels. Of cource there are excejitions. Q. — Name the <'xcei)tions? A. — Some vessels with Indian hunters make very lai'ge catches Q. — Is that because of the skill of those particular Indians? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — Those are exreplions, are they not? A. — They are. Q. — Now (^a)'tain McLean you have had to do largely with the fitting out (retty liberal. Q. — And what in the way of equipment for the slop chest? A. — Sloj) chest for that number of men, about |2o0. (J.— What goes into that? A. — Tobacco and clothing. Q. — ^Vith that allowance for a cruise to Behring Sea and 30 Itaek, and going through the sealing, would you expect to have iinylhing left on your return? A. — Usually we would carry enough for, say about two we«*ks. (i. — After the voyage was over? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — So that the allowances you make for this crew of 11 nu'U would be liberal enotigh, so that if they met with no ac- cidents or delays, thej would have two weeks' supply left on tlieir arrival in port? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — We will take a crew of 11 men, starting out in May f(U' a sealing voyage to Behring Sea and in Behring Sea, 4" (isliing the season there. What would you say of their taking in the way of breadstufTs, 13 barrels of flour, six bags of flour in addition, 100 pounds of corn-meal, 100 pounds of oat meal, and 45 boxes — 50 pound boxes — of pilot bread, for lircadstuffs alone, to say nothing of meats. What would you say as to that supply of breadstuffs? A. — That is larger tliaii I have been accustomed to carry for tliat number of men. (i. — IIow about 15 liarrels of flour for one item, on a voy- cgc to Behring Sea and back, and six sacks in addition? A. — I think that is more than 11 men could use in four months, or live months, easily. I usually figure about a sack of flout for l.'i men for a week. Q. — .\nd that is a liberal supply? A. — Yes, sir, I found lliat to be a lilxial supply. (J. — How about 45 boxes of pilot bread; what would you say to that for 11 men for a sealing voyage to Behring Sea? A. Well. I used to average from seven to eight boxes of bread for a sea.son. (■I. — For how long a season? A. — That would be from < ifriif to nine months for from 24 to 28 men. Q. — Did you ever know of any vessel being fitted out with l)ilot l)read for any more tlian the propoi'tion you stated? A. — Not for a sealing voyage. When trading, I have carried more bread down the coast. Q. — But for .1 voy:tge for your men, hunters and seamen, you never knew of anybody carrying more than seven or 10 r.o 1:1 'hi m m M ■ • P liii fitllJiii li , ; ' 1 ^ [ ■ " T - 426 (Alt'X. MeLi'iiii — Direct.) Hl«(t 10 fight boxt'8 of pilot iirt'ad bcHidos ,vour flour, did yon? A. — 1 don't Ivnow of anybody that did. Q. — When you Btute that you would provide a saclv of flour a week for a man, how many pounds would that be? A. — There are four Hacks to a barrel. Q.— .Vnd for how long a voyage would you provide a sack to a man a week? A. — Tlmt would be for the whole voy- iige. that would be for 13 men, about a barrel a month, if a vessel was out five numths that would be about 2(» sacks. 1 never carried over 6<> sacks of flour. Q. — Not in any of your ships, large or small? A. — Not for the ships I use. Q. — Andfor how many men? A. — Tliat would be about 24 men. Q. — How about carrying in addition to flour and pilot bread, oatmeal and cornmeal? A. — ^Ve usually <'arry corn- meal and oatmeal. 20 Q- — And about how much sugar would you think would be the equipment for a voyage of four or five months to Behring Sea, on a sealing voyage? A. — I couldn't exactly state tiie number of pounds. Q. — But take it by the barrel. We are in large figures? A. — I suppose about two lialf barrels of sugar. Q. — For a voyage of how long? A. — .\ voyage of about five months. Q. — For how many men? A. — Say about 12 or 13 men. Q. — That is yon would estimate that for about 12 or 13 30 men? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Would Tou Jake any syrup with the sugar? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — About how much syrup? A. — About 10 gallons. Q. — What did yon pay a pound for ammunition in 1886? A. — For powder? Q. — I mean for powder? A. — I believe in 1880 it was worth about f7 a keg. Q. — How much a pound? A. — That would be 25 pound kegs, worth then about $7 a keg, about thf.t, probably a few ^ cents less, or over. Q. — Whereabouts was this? A. — In San Francisco. Q. — How much would that be wortli here? A. — I couldn't exactly state how much it was worth here. Powder is al- ways up and down. Mr. Peters: — 1 submit that my learned friend has no right to go into what an outfit would cost in San Francisco. He is asking this witness the cost of powder in San Francisco. Mr. Dickinson: — I did not ask it, it came out. Mr. Peters: — The witness states it. You are asking the cost of things at San Francisco. Mr. Dickinson: — The witness stated it. it may be stricken out. Then my next question is, what was the cost at Vic- toria, and I think I will ask it. Mr. Peters: — You, have already got into the notes the cost ai: San Francisco. The ('ommissioner on the part of the I'nited States:— He says it Is stricken out, Mr. Peters. That ends it. Mr. P(.ters:— I object to having that stateme^nt on the rec- ord, that i»owder costs f7 ut San Francisco. .^fr. Dickinscm:— That may be stricken out. All thai he says about the price of powder in San Francisco mav be stricken out. inasmucli as he says he did not know the price at A'icioria. That is the only Item as to which I have askcl any price. S^ 60 10 20 30 40 so 427 (Ah'X. M<-I.<-tiii — IMr«'ft— <'r«)8H.) Il.v Mr. 1 >ic-kiiiH()'ii : Q. — Do yon know anytliiug about the price of powder in IhcM* yi':u"8 at Virtoria? A. — I do not ivnienil)er at priwnt wluit the priee wan, I>ut I HuppoHe tliey liad a higlier ■':)(<> tlian titat. I do not know what (Ll duty was and what the freijflit on it was. (i.— lint tlu' relative pi-ices were higher? A. — Yes, Kir, tlu-re was tlie dilferenc^e of duty and frt>ight. Q. — Do you know anytliing about the amo>int of salt in tons tnat would be taken on a cruise of this kind. The boat goen up with a crew of 11 men and four canoes to be manned by two wliite hunters each. Slie leaves in May to seal on the coast only and in Hehring Sea only, to retuni after the Kea- Hon. What would be the outfit for salt? A. — It would aver- age from about one ton to one and a half tons to a boat, say ab;)ut five tons ot salt for four boats. If they have more boats Ihey would carry more salt. (i. — What is the average catch of the large cati^hes to each lioat? A. — The average about? Q. — Yes? A. — That is pretty hard to say, it depends on (lie vessel and on tlie huntei-s. Q. — ^^'llat do yon say to ()(M) jiounds of ham and (M)0 ])ounds of bacon, in addition to what I have already stated as part of tlie outfit for 11 men on such a voyage? A. — That is 1,200 ])ounds? Q. — Yes? A. — It is quite a good deal more than is neces- sary, but of course it could be used. v>. — What do you say to OOO pounds of ham and fiOO pounds of b,\con l>eside8 the corned beef and the p(H"k on board? A. — That would be more than I would carry, if I was going out on tlu expedition with that number of men. Q. — Js it an extravagant ciuantity; a very large quantity? A. — Yes, sir, it is unduly large. Q. — How much would you carry? A. — I would carry about 4110 {K)unds. Q. — And bacon also? A. — No, sir, that is between ham and l)acon. Q. — Metwi'en ham and bacon altogether? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — For that number of men? A. — i'es, for that number of men.. Q. — Would you carry in addition to that a complete outfit of other meats, such as corned beef and pork? A. — Yes, sir, canned corn l>eef. Q. — Is there anything else that you T.onid carry for the outfit if you wer»' going to fit out a ship fcr Rehring Sea in 18,S(!? Is there anytliing else that you vtould carry in the way of outfit, except what you have named: The slop chest, (lie medicine chest, the provisions? A. — And the ammuni- tion. I think that is all that would be necessary outside of l)oats and guns. rrossexamination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Now, Mr. McLean, you seem to be a man of consider- able experien<'e in seal hunting? A. — I had some, yes, sir. Q. — According to your own ideas, and we will see what it amounts to. You come from Nova Scotia. I believe? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That was a good many years ago; liow many did you say? A. — It would be some ye,-,™ ago, I left there in 1874. Q. — Where did you come to? .. . — I came to different I laces before I came here. Q. — Did you live at San Francisco at first? A. — Not at fli-st. Q- — Where did you go to first? A. — I have Iwen at differ- ent places iM'fore I came to San Francisco. ii lir litjiffii'w'tr 428 ':i 10 20 30 40 50 60 (AU'X. McLoaii — Cross.) Q. — Wlu'i-c (lid .v I'liitcd Stah'H. Q. — What part of it? A. — MaHsacliiisscttH. Q.— Wlu'ii? A.— That would be in tlio latt»'r part of 1S74. Q. — What did .vou do tlu-rc? A. — I was sailing in diffcrciil VCBSt'ls. Q. — Wliat part of MassaclinsHcUs? A. — I was in Itoston and (}lon)(>st«'r, MaMsachnssctts. Q. — Yon were sailing ont of tluit liarbor? A. — Yoh, sir. Q. — In wliat trade? A. — In coasiinn and flsliinK. y. — Whicli was it. coasting or tishing? A. — IJotii. (J. — How long wore .von tlshing? A. — I hav»' bt'»'n fishing for sonio time tlu'rc. Q. — "Honu' tinu'." is no time to nic. I want to know how long? A. — I'robabl.v a. .veai- or n»on'. Q. — Was it a .year or was it more? A. — I cannot exactly state to llie month, of course I wonid go cm different vessels. Q. — Were ,von fishing on .vonr own acconnt? A. — No, sir. Q. — Whose emi>lo.v were yon in there? A. — I was «'inploy- ed in ii vessel b.v the name of the "Electric Flash." Q. — What kind of business? A. — The nmckerel fishing. Q. -AVhere? A.— Out of fJloncester. ii. — Where were .von fishing? A. — On the coast of tl.e Inited States. Q. — Were .von many .veai-s engaged there? A. — No, sir. Q. — Was that .vonr «ml.v exjMMience of fishing? A. — No, sir, I had some other exjjerience. Q. — Where? A. — I had some «'Xiterience at home. Q. — Then you were emplo.ved in the mackerel fishing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you give me the name of vonr emplo.ver, I want that? A. — His name was MacDonald. Q.— What llacDonald? A.— John MacDonald. Q. — What is he? A. — He was master of the ship and owner. Q. — Where did he live? A. — lie lived in Oloucester. Q. — Does he live there now? A. — I cannot state. .Q — John MacDonald was owner of the ship "Electric Flash"? A.— Yes. Q.^In the .year 1874? A.— That would not be 1874 or 1875, it was later on. Q.— When was it? A.— lletween 1878 and 1S70. Q. — Where were .vou in the meantime? A. — I was goinj; to sea — deep water. Q.— In what trade, between 1874 and 1878 or 187!)? A.— I was coasting on the coast between Ho^ton and IMiiladelphia and lialtimore. Q. — On .voiir own account? A. — No. sir. Q. — In whose employ? A. — I was in dlffenn) vessels, but I cannot state the owners. Q. — Can ,vou give me the names of any of your eniido.vers during that time? A. — No, sir, I cannot. Q. — Not one? A. — Not one of them. Q.— That is strange, is it not? A— No. Q. — You cannot give me the name <»f one of the employers you were with between 1874 and 1878? A. — I did not kcej) books, and when I was shi]>i)ese? You would no( mind (hat at all, would you? .\. — I do not know what I might say at the time? (2. — Vou think it would he no loss because it is a chance 1ha( you might not catch mackerel, is that your idea? A. — It is a good deal of chance work. ii. — Mackerel llshing is all chance work? A. — A great d<'al. (i. — .\nd there are thtnisands, and I might almost say mil- lions of dollars invcste*! in the mack«>rel tishing, is there not? A. — Yes. Q. — .\nd it is all invested in chance work? A. — A great (leal so, a good many \essels go out and do not make a Ciltcll. Q. — Is cod fishing just about the same? A. — Of course (liey have to take chances, some of them, of course, make money and scnne of them d'» not. i-l.—li* lialilml tishing (he same? A. — I snjipose so. (j._.\]l chance? .\. — Yes, very much like seal fishing. Q.— And just (o ai»out tlie sanu' extent as seal fishing? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— They all have chances and they catch some on certaia (lays, do they not, they have all got some little elements of rhance to catch seals and fish. A. — Yes, sometimes they (atch tluMM and sometimes they don't. Q.— It is just the same with seals as it is with mackerel Is it not? A. — .\ good deal that way? (}.— .\nd there is no more chance about seals than there is about nmckerel? .\. — Taking the average it is about tlie Siime, I Hui»i»ose, a man cannot say, when he goes out for scaling, or mackerel (ishing that he is going to make a catch, 111' cannot rely upon it. Q. — lie cannot be certain? A. — No, sir. Q. — .\nd it is the same way with seal hunting, you say? A. — ^'cK, sir, I lu'lieve so. Q.— What did yon do after 1SS7, <'aptain? A.— I cam' (o San Francisco in 18S!» or 1880. ,! !!!' :t'h ^iif-^n"n' " ill •miU" 10 20 3<3 SO 60 pro- 430 (AKx. McLi'iiii — rn»MH.) Q.— hi 18«0, that iH riKht, is it? A— Ych, Hir. up in? A. — I was a passenner on n steamer from here. Q. — What steamer? A. — I do not recoli«ct the name et the steamer. Q. — How far did you m> on the st»'amer? A. — I went to Juneau f'ity. Q. — How long did yon stay there? A. — I was then; bably about seven months. Q. — What did vou do tlien? A. — I came down here. Q.— That is still in the year ISHl? A.— No, in 18H3 Q. — What did you do then? A. — I went east. Q. — Where? A. — Down to Massnchussetts. Q. — What part of Massachussetts? A. — Itoston. Q. — Perhaps you can tell me what yon did there? Yes, sir. Q. — What did you do there? A. — I was travellinp;, I w Ixm'h on honrcl of hvr in this harbor and iilHO on board her in AlaHlry pla«»' .vou were In during; tlicw vearK from 1H74. iih near aH .vou can n-nu-nibcr. I want to know wlit'llicr vou bad fr«'»> quarti'i-H at any time? .Iu8t iiUHWc r that qucHtlon. A. — I have Ikh-u in variouH |)lnct>H dur- iiiK tiutt tlrni*. il — \V«'rt' ,voH in piihon at any time? A. — No, sir, not to aiy linowlt'dp'. but I niijiht liavc been. (i. — Are ytai Hurc you wvrv not? A. — I luivc b('«'n in prison once in Halifax, Nova Htotia. I t;ot into a litth- trouble tlit-n'. (i.— When was tluit? A.— That would be about 1870 prob- ably. (/.— Is that tlu' only tinu'? A.— Tliat is the only time that I was in prison that I know of tliere. I got into n little tpiarn'l one evening and got bu-kod up about it. (i. — You ean answer tlie question better than I ran put it. Tell nie, was that the only time you were in prison? A. — I was imprisoned once in Wan Franeisco. (/.—That is twiee? A.— Yes. sir. (J. — Have you any doubt about that? A. — No, sir, no doubt. (J. — How louR were you in piison there? A. — Probably altout six hours. Q. — >Vhen was that? A. — That would have been thre<« years ago- Q. — Is that the only time you were in pilson? A. — That is iill I know of, I liave been in ])ris(m twice. (i. — A man must certainly have a i-ecollection as to wlu'tli- cr or not he was imprisoned and how often. Can you tell me f<»r certain whether these wer«' the only times you were in jaison? A. — That is all I have b<'en in prison. Q. — Then it would not be correct to say that you were in prison at any time for thnn' months? A. — Yes, sir; it w«>uld not be correct. Mr. Dickinson: — Ask him what he was in jail for in Hali- fax and it will save me reexamination. Mr. Peters: — I shall. (To witness): ti. — What were you in jail for in Halifax? A. — I went iisliore from the ship with(»ut libei"ty and not into a row with a man and had a quarrel. The principal reason that I was put in jail for was on acccnint of leaving tlw* ship without lib- erty. (/. — \Vlit was the trouble in San Francisco that you got into jail for? A. — I got into a fight there and I was detained for about six hours. (J. — You say you went to San Francisco in ISS2? A.— Ves, sir. Q. — And you lived there until when? A. — I came back lii're again in thf latter part of IS.S;?. *^l- — And where did you go to then, did you live here? A. — I lived here from 1SH4 until lS8i>, and being back and for- ward between here and San Francisco at times. ^i- — ^Vhen you were in San Fnuuisco, were you in the Miiploy of Liebes & Company? lliiiK fnvH. Q. — Were they in the busiut'ss of nitehing seals? A. — They were some years ago, yes. Q. — Were they when you were in their enipk»y? A. — At ttrst, ves sir. Q.— In wliat year? A.— In lM!t(» and IHiH. Q. — Whom did they represent? A. — They repres«'!ited ' themselves. Q. — Anybody else? A. — I eannot say, I am not sure. Q. — Who were they a^t'nts for? A. — They were their own ajients at tlmt time. Q. — Were they aj."'nts for anv eompanv? A. — That mifjlit be. Q. — You do not know anything about that? A. — No, sir, I did not know all their business. Q. — How lonj^ were you in their emi)loy? A. — I was iu their em]>loy probably altout three years. Q. — Why did you leave them? A.--I worked for anotlier firm there. Q. — That is not an answer to my (|uestion. Why did you leave them? A. — Well, I sujtpose I left them proltably to better myself. Q. — Did you go to them and say "I am iroinji to leave you," or did they say to yon "Vou had better leave"'? A. — No, sir. ti. — You wt're not disuiissel? A. — No, sir. Q. — It is not eorreet to say that you were? A. — No, sir, and I can prove it. Q. — Now, then we hiive gitt you down to 1SS4, and then you stated where you went later on. Now, up to 1SS4 what weie vou doing for these nu'u. Y<»u w»>re not working for them .it early as 1884 at all. A.— Whieh men? Q. — liiebes & Tompany? A. — No, sir. Q.— You began there in 18!)))? A.— Y»"s. sir. Q. — What was your actual enii»loyment with them? A. — Master of a vessel. (}. — What kind of a vessel? A. — A sealing vessel. Q. — What was the uanu> of that vessel? A. — The 'Mames Hamilton Lewis.'" (■i- — Were you in any otlier vess»'l? A. — I left them afier I was in the "Lewis."' tliat is, I transferred to another com- pany. Q- — Now, I want to come to 18s:{. What were yon em liloyed at in that year? A.— I was employed sealing and walrussing. Q. — Was thar the first year you hunted? A. — Yes, sii. Q. — That is the lirst year y(»u ever went sealing? A. — 50 The first year I ever went sealing was in 188:^. Q. — And then you went luinting seals and walrusses? ,\. — Yes, sir. Q. — Chielly walrusses, I believe? A. — Yes, sir, but we were prepared for seal hunting. Q. — That was the lirst time that your experience in st-aling begins? A. — Yes, sir. Vhat were you looking foi most? A. — AValrusses in >lu> early part of the season and seals in the latter part. Q. — When did you begin to look for seals? A. — Ou tba 2nth of July. 20 Q- — 1 «iw j"8t going to have a little look at that book of yours now. Y'ou took that answer from that book. This book purports to be what? A- — That is for my owu prtv:.te information. Q. — When did j'ofi make it up? A. — I made it up at differ cnt times. (I. — Yon have an entry hero, ''Sailing in Behring Sta in 1SS;{, tho number of seals caught, the days they were caught, till* latitude and the longitude." That is right, is it? A. — Yes, sir, it is supposed to be. 30 Q. — I want a straight answer to this question. When did you make/these entries? A. — 1 cannot say as to the exact date, or probably the year, but they haye been n;ude some years back. ti. — Will you swear you made them in 1883? A. — \o, sii-. Q. — Will you swear you made them in 1884? A.— ^^i, sir. Q. — Will you swear you made them in 188.'5? A. — Pro bablv in 1885. g.— Why did you make tluMU "probably in 188.'>?" A.— '1° Ilecaiise 1 had that book in f^8r» and nvade entries in it, and I believe this is one of the first entries I put in. Q.— You prol)ably made them in 1S85? A.— Pnuii other books, I did. Q.— Wha^ other books? A.— Kooks that I used to keep re cords in. (i.— Do you mean lo say that 74 is a corri'ct slatenu-nt in liiis book? .\. — I believe it. (i.— Will you swear it is correct? A.— To the best of my CQ knowledge, sir. (i.— Then these entries were not made at these dates? A. — N'o, sir. t^.— You have got not only the number of seals cauglil each (lay but the latitude and loiigitiide where they were caught? .V. — Yes, sir. (^.—Whero did yoti get that from? A.— I took the obser vii lions myself. Q.— Where did you put them down? A.— I put them down in a book. 60 ^i — What book? .\. — There was a log book. Q.— Who has got that log book? .\.— The log book was left in the ship, 1 believe, and I t«tok the jirivate book of my (A lex. Mcliean — Cross.) Whore did you get tlie log? A. — I had a private log of my own which I always kept at sea. Q. — Where is that log? A. — I destroyed that wheu I was making that book up. Q. — Sviien was that? A. — When I am at sea I always make entries in a separate book, and at the end of the voy- age I generally enter them in that book there. Q. — When did you destroy the old book? A. — I cannot exactly state when I did destroy it. Q. — Tell me why you destroyed it? A. — Because I did not want the book, I did not want to pack u]i t(»o many books and that book there would answer my purpose. Q. — If you had the entries in the old book was not the old book as good as the new one? A. — I did not want to have eight or nine books. Q. — Rut you had the entry in the old book and you might have left it there? A. — I did not want to have that book. Q. — Why? A. — I did not want to tak«> it around. Q. — As a matter of fact arc the entries in thi« l>ook right? A. — There may be some errors in that. Q. — How? A. — That is regarding the dates and probably in adding up the total amounts. Q. — Will you swear that this book is true as to items? A. — Some of the dates and some of the total catches might be wi'ong. Q. — I do not refer to the total catches at all, I ask you about the items? A. — As near as jKissible. Q.— I am going to come io this now. Take Ihe year ISs:?, and I find here these entries of seals caught: 25th of July. r>(» seals; 22nd. (!(► seals; 2(>th, S7 seals; August 2nd, 70 seals; .Vugust lOlh. o you mean ttt say that you caught this innuber of seals on tli«'se days? A. — I believe so. There might br an odd seal caught in the evening and I would put it down in next day's catch. (i. — You wi're on the "Favourite" in 1S8(!? .\, — Yes. i]. — .\nd there is no small ared them lately. (i.— I want to fjo throufjli the whole business with you and see if there will be any mistake. You have what purports to be a statement of the catches made in the vears 188.*?, 1H.S4, ISS.^, 1SH«, 1SS7, 18SS and 188!)? A.— Yes, sir. (). — I put the fjeneral (piestion to you: Is there a small day's catch shown in any one of them? A. — Probably not. The reason for that is when we make; a small day's catch I (lid not enter that. I did not want to mak«' too many differ- ent entries in my book. If I i)icked up one or two seals, I held that over to the next mornin>j. i}. — AYas not that put in your little book oi-ininally? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Entered in your little book day by day? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — AYlien did you draw the line when you entered it on to the next day's catch? A. — \Yhen I was puttins; down the position in that book. Q. — Had you any interest in the "San Diego"? A. — No, 40 sir. Q.— None at all? A.— None. (i.— ^Yill you tell me what reason you had for keeping a statement of what she caught? .\. — II interested me be- cause I intended to follow the business. (i.— Did the log of the "San l)ieg(»" show the catch? A.— I (inuutl exactly say if it did, but I kept a record of the I'i'ilcli, and I also kept the ship's log. I am not sure if we entered the position and tlu' <'atches in the log or not. (i. — Had yoti any object in not entering in the log the num- hcr of seals that you caught? .\. — Yes. (i. — What was your obje<( ? A. — ISecause if you have a log book and you make |»relty good catches your hunters or I lew may gel hold of (lie book and take the positions out of il. and g<»iiig on board another ship tliey would give it to lliciii. (i. — Why did you not want to liave that (hme? .\. — Uecause it might interfere with my business, I wanted to go there my- scM' again, iiiid I did not want to have too many vessels 60 iiioiiml me in the sealing grounds. 50 <2. — You took some slock in the position then? .\. — ^'ei sir. ii. — You acliiallv look trouble not to let other people know t? A.— Y<-s. , Sealing cm the Coast of H. (\" It is endorsed on Ih- cover, "Sealing account and gineral iufonnation by (,'aptaiii .Viexander McLean." To witness: Q. — I want you to ivfer to the date, July the Dth, Hehring Sea, and tell me what is the entry there? A. — .'{5 seals. Q. — Kead the whole entry. A. — Heliring Sea, ',\~) seals, hit! tude 54.50 longitude 1(50.(5. Q. — Now, I have here, in the American book, a copy of what purports to be the log of that ship for that year, and I want to see whether it agrees with yours. It says here, Julv !»th, position 55.58, is that there? ' A.— It is 54!50 here. Q.— \Yhat is the longitude? A.— It is 10(5. Q. — And here we have it 1(57.25. How manv sealb there? A.— :{5. Q. — And there are J8 here. Now, I will take the very next one. Look at the 10th of July, and what is your entry there? A. — There is no entry for the 10th. Q. — \Vhat is your next entry? A. — The 11th. Q — (Jive your position there? A. — Latitude 55 .48, longi- tude 18(5 .8. Q. — The ))osition here is, latitude 55 .18, and longitude 1(57 .21. How do you account for that difference? .\.— 1 do not know. I have not seen that book and I don't know anything about that book. (J. — What is the number of seals there? A.— One liun dred. Q. — And the numlxM' of seals here is 11.*?. Now. then yon have no seals caught on the lOtli? A. — No, sir. Q. — This book gives 78 seals? .\. — I suppose so, sir. Q. — How do you ;i((, and I ask you the question, if on the flth of .fuly, the position in your book is different from the position as Htated in the log? A. — Not quite the same. sir. Q. — Why was it not quite the same, what object had you ill putting it not quite right? A. — The original log book is kept for noon, and this little book is kept as closely as possible to wliere the seals were caught in, it might make a difference of Home miles during the day. Q. — What was your position on the 8th, on the t)th. and on tlie KHh, as marked in the log? A.— On the 10th it is 55 .58: on tlie !>th it is 35 .45; on the 8th it is 55 .30. Q.— r>id you ever get into latitude 54 at all during that time? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— On thtW days? A. — In August. Q.— No. But on these three days I have named? A. — Not that I know of, if I did, it would be in the log book. (J.— Your log shows that you were not in 54 on any of til' se tliire days, and that being the cas*', explain to me why ym put 54 in your little book? A.— Well, that might be an •■nor in taking that down, of course. (i.— Will you swear it was an error? A.— Yes, sir, I will swear it was an error, and that is was not done intention- ally either. 0.— Is there any statement in the log as to how many seals vou caught on the 5)th or Kttli, or the llth? A.— No. sir. be- ciuise I did not enter my (Pitches In this log book. Q.— Now, then, following on that same line with your log liook, look at the next dav, the llth. as shown there? A.— YCH. Q.— What is vour position according to your little book on tlie nth? A.— 55 .48. (J.— What is tlie position in the log? A.— 55 .37. Q— What is the longitude there in your little book? A. ir,7 .8 Q.— What is the log? A.— 107 .7. Q.— When dierson gets the information that on the llth of July in tluit year — The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — One moment, Mr. Peters. That is "not (piito the same line of ex- amination that was concbictcd on the other side. It seems to me the (»ther side |)ut these similar tpiestions in a ditferent way. The witnesses were asked by counsel on the otlu'r side in a general way, if they gave siwh information and so forth. 5° Mr. Peters: — I am not referring to any information about this transa putting that question in a con- tingent foiin. 60 Mr. Peters: — I merely ask the witness, yon ITononr, the question as to whether he gi.ve such and such infornnition to such and such an olTi(!'r. I will put the question in the form whi< h your Honour suggests. To the witness: Q. — Did yon as a matter of fact give a statement to any person as to the number of seals that you canght in the 10 20 30 40 (>o 459 (Alex. McLean: — Cnms.) "Favcmrilf"' in the .veiir 1HH(} and the Mition of the Bhip. I may have, but I am not Hure. Q. — Do you remember wlu'U it was, you nave wliatever in- formation you did jtive? A. — No, sir, I do not. The ComniisBionei- (m the part of the United States: — I did not mean to say, Mr. PeterH, that yon ponld not ask the wit- ness as to whetiier he fjave specifie information as to particu- lar days. Mr. Peters: — May it please your Honour, what I wisli to };et at is this, I have a certain statement here and it is simply with a view of seeinjj whether this statement is a correct one or not. that I ask those (piestions. If it is a correct state- ment I want to know how it differs from this book. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Fol- lowing the jtroof used In-re, you are entitled to ask him whether he stated that to any person, and you can draw your deducti? A. — What year was that that you say he got this information? Q. -It would be 1804 or 18!)5. A.— Where-about was that? ti. — I presume here or in San Francisco? A. — I cannot exactly saj. rtain. i , ^ .!■(!! if ^' i^ ,1 ?? •:sUi. \i\- \um M rprrp ' ' IHMi lO 20 440 (AU'x. McLean: — Cross.) Q. — l>o you iiH'iiu to 8113' it 1b iioHHiblo for you to linve given tile position of your vessel from memory? A. — I do not tliiulc HO. Q. — Or the number of seals caught in any one day? A. — No, sir. 1 eould not liave given tlie |iosition of the ship or the number of steals from memory. (J. — In fact you could not have given anything from mem- ory? A. — Except the numbers of the total catch. Q. — And except the numbers of tlie total catch you could not have given anything from memory? A. — No, sir. Q. — You have in tliat booli an entry with regard to the jhip "San Diego" that you were in in 1883? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know any of the men that were on the "San Diego?" A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Can you remember any of them? A. — Yes, sir, I re- member some of them. Q. — Will you Just tell me some of them? A. — There was one of the name of Bill Thomas. Q. — Is that the only entry you have ? • A. — Showing what I caught in that year. Q.— In 1883? A.— Yes. Q. — That is tlic only entry you have in existence? A. — That is the only entry I have in existence. Q. — And where were the seals in the "San Diego" deliver- ed to, when she came from her voyage? A. — They were delivered to T. Lubbe. Q.— You delivered them? A. — No, sir, the master of the 30 ship did. Q — Did she just deliver her own seals? A. — Her own seals, I believe. Q— -And no more? A. — Not that I know of. ti. — Then Mr. Lubbe, he would know what number of seals you delivered would lie not? A. — Yes, sir, he ought. Q. — And he would have it in his boks? A. — Yes, sir, by producing his books he ought to know the exact number of seals ve gave to him. Q. — You have not looked at the books? A. — No, sir, I 40 have seen his books, but I never went through them. Q. — Now, give me that little book again. We will have this little book for a moment. Will you be kind enough to state again the position you were in on the 12th of July, 1880? A. — This should be the position; about 55 .37, that is where the seals were caught and taken in. Q.--And longitude 107 .8? A.— Yes, sir. (}. — Now, look at that and see in the year 1885 on that same dav, what was your position? A. — My position was latitude 55 .4(5 longitude 108 .30. Q. — How far apart are these two positions about? A. — This is on the 12th of July? Q. — Yes. A. — There would be nine miles difference of lati- tude and probably about 22 miles difference of longitude. Q. — AVhat would be the actual difference as the crow flies? .\. — About 20 miles. Q.— Take the 15th of July, 18(iG, and siiy what was your position? A.— Latitude .55 .25, longitude 107 .57. ^Q Q. — I see you cannot get the same day exactly in 1885, but taking between the 12th and the 18th of July, 1885, how fur away were you from the same position? A. — The distance will be close onto GO miles. Q.— That will be the furthest? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Compare any day in August that you like, take the first of August, we will say, how does your position in 1885 com- pare with 3'our position in 1880 on the 1st of August. A — It would be about 22 miles difference. 50 10 20 30 40 ^0 () I 44 1 (Alex. McLean: — Cio88.) ii. — Can yon accunut foi* the fact, Captain McLean, why it was (liat yon seem to lyive got pretty near the same spot in (he same year? A. — Do yon asl{ me why? Q. — Yes? A. — Becanse I nsed to want v'kRO over the same ;ji'oun(L Q. — And yon were catchinf; seals there? A. — Yes, I caufi^ht tliem before and if I did not get seals there, I would go further along. Q. — But you did find them before? A. — Oh, yes. Q. — And you found them in the same quantities, did yon not: perhai)8 better in 188G than in 1885? A.— Yes, sir, in 188f. I found more seals on that day. Q.— And all through the year didn't you find it better? A. — Yes, sir, of course, in 1886 I made a pretty good catch in July. Q. — And yon got some seals in August, too? A. — Yes. I got some in August. Q.— Taking all the entries of the position of your ship in the year 1885 is it not correct that you were sealing in 1886 pretty much near the same ground as in 1885? A. — Well, in 1885. I made a pretty fair catch, and I thought I would go over the >*ame ground again and seal where I did well in 1885. Q. — Then you did place a value on the position of the ship? A. — That is the reason I kept that in this book. Q. — And vou followed that out successfully for two years, did you not? A.— In 1885 and in 1886. Q. — Did you go on the same ground in 1887? A. — Yes. Q. — Why? A. — Because I expected to find seals there. Q.— Did you lind them? A.— Yes. Q. — And you hunted in tlie same grounds in 1887? A. — Not in the same position. Q.— But practically did vou hunt over the same ground in 1,S87 as you did in 1885 and 1886? A.— Not altogether, I believe in 1887 1 went a little to the westward, and probably 1o tlie eastward, I never confined myself to any certain place. Q. — Just let me see how corre<'t that is. The last day's sealing you made in 1887, vou caught 146 seals, according to this little book? A.— Yes". Q. — And your position was latitude 54..40 longitude 169, and in 1886 on the very siime day how far were you from that same place? A. — Probably about a hundred miles. Q. — On that particular day? A. — Yes, sir, farther to the westward. Q. — Now, there is another peculiarity about this little book, and I want to point it out to you. You are swearing to Ihis book? A. — Yes, sir, as near as possible it is right. Q.— What is the last day you fished in Behring Sea in 1886 A. — I believe that book will show it. Q. — Well, what do you say now? A. — I think it was the lilth of August. Q.— And in 1887? A.— The 2;?rd. Q. — And in 1888? A. — I cannot exactly say without refer- ring to the book. tj. — And in 1888, d(m't mind your book, I want your mem- ory now? A. — Well, it would be within a few davs of the :i(lth. Q. — Would you be surprised to learn that your book states (hat you made the last catch on every one of these years on Ihe litth of August? A. — I believe r<' to sa.v it docs not aivi' your position? A. — 10 No, sir, not in the Itchrinf; Sea. ii. — It >{lvt'S no infonnation at all as to wlicrc yon were? A. — No, it just >{iv»'s infoiination rcgardinj; the wcatlfcr in I((>linnf; Sea. (2. — Then it is correct for nu> to say that all tli«' time yon w<'i'(> in Itt'liring Sea your log hook docs not state the ]iosi- tion in the log book? A. — \ot in my lojr. Q. — Xot in your log? A. — Not in my log. Q. — I can understand why you did not ])Ut the number of seals in your l«)g book, but F want you to explain why you 20 did not put the position of your ship in the log book? A. — For various r«>aHons. Q. — What were they? A. — In the first jdace I did not want my crew to get a hold of my IxHtks and take my posi- tion out of the lN)oks. Q. — You did not want your crew to know? A. — \o, sir. (J. — ('(Mild not you keeji your log book awn.v from the crew as well as anything else? A. — [ kept scuue things locked up but it is not nsual to keep the log i»ook locked up on board ship. 30 Q. — Now, take the year ISSH. there is your log book, and show me what day you left Rehring Sea in that year? The witness had not answered the (piestion when the f'om- missioners rose. The Commissioners then rose. 40 i?lii*i«M OommiBsioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, Between Great Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 14, 1896. 50 At lOs'JO the rommissioners took their seats. rross-examination of Alexander Mcl^ean continued bv .Mr. Peters. Q. — <'aj)tain McLean, you produce several books here and I just wi.sh to ask you ab(Mit them. Ih-re is the log of the "Favourite" foi- the years isy4 and ISD.'j, is it not? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — They were produc«'d here by you, were tlu-y? A. — Qq They were got from me. Q. — As a matter of fact who kept that log? A.— 1 kejtt that log. Q. — Yourself? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Is that in your writing? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — That log was kept by you and has been in your ens- todv? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Up till lately? A.— Up till lately. Q. — And since it was kept by you? A. — Yes. sir. 10 20 443 ;A lex. McliCiin : — Cntsw.) Q.— Take tliL- log of (ho HtliooiHT "Favourlto" for 1880, wliO lu'pt (hat lofc'? A.— I kept that log. Q. — 18 that in your writing? A. — Yes, hIi'. Q. — lias that been iu your cuutody till lately? A. — Yeu, Hir. (i.— Take the log of the "Mary Ellen" for 18H7, who kept that log? A. — 1 kept that log,, sir. Q. — Is it in your writing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — The whole of it? Just look and see, I want you to l>e sure. A. — I was muster of the "Mary Ellen" at the time and then I kept this log. Q. — And that is you log? A, — Yes, sir. ti.— Take the log of the "Mary Ellen" for 1888, who kept that log. A.— I kept the log for 1888, sir. {}. — That is your writing also? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Has that log been iu your custody until lately? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Take the log or" the "Mary Ellen for 188!>? A.— Part of her log was kept by the mate and the latter part was kept by me. Q. — I'p to what page was it kept bv the mate? A. — May Ith, 1881). Q. — On what page of the book is that? A. — Page <>2. Q.— From May 4th it was kept by you? A. — Yes, sir. Q— ^Vas that a Behring Sea year? A.— Yes, sir, a Behr- ing Sea year. Q. — So that the part connected with the trip to Behring 30 Sea was kept by you? A. — Y'es, sir. Q- — Now are thoH«> the only logs that you kept for these years of these vessels? A. — Yes, sir, for these vessels, they were the ship's logs. Q. — Did any othei- person keep any other logs of these vessels during these years? A. — Not that I am aware of. (i. — And these logs have been in your nossession from the time they were kept up to about how lt»ng ago? A. — Till very lately. Q. — Witliin three weeks? A. — Y'es, sir. Q. — No other person had them in their possession? \. — Not during that tiUK; — not to my knowledge. They niifilit liave seen my books, a person might have occasion to see them, but not that I know of. Q. — Now, Mr. McLean, if 1 can find a publication which • onlains the exact information that is in one of these logs, can you imagine any other source it coiild come except from lliat log? A. — I cannot say, it is pretty hard to say what source it conld come from. i}. — Can you imagine any other source where the informa- tion could come from — for instance, information giving the position and the dates from day to day of one of these ves- sels, just as it is in one of these logs. Where could that information have been obtained except from the log? A. — Is i< exactly the same as it is in these logs? Q. — Yes, sir. A. — They might have got a copy of my log in some way while it was in my possession. Q. — You mean to saj' that it must have come from your log? A. — I cannot exactly say that because I do not know if it did or not. Q. — Where have you kept these logs? A. — I kept them sometimes on board the ship at sea and sometimes on shore. Q. — Did you give any person a copy of that log or of any of them? A. — Not that I remember of. Q- — Do you know of any person having taken a copy? A. — No. I cann«)t say that I know of any person that has a copy of iiny of uiy log Imoks. 40 60 m !■■ :..i :||ij!iii iiil ifif'ITfff I'"! I "•!' ulM"^) lO 20 30 444 (A lex. M«'I-i'iin : — < 'roMH.) Q. — Now ,vtiii Htiitt'd tJiiit before ,voii were in HieHe veHMelw at all, (iiat in the ,veai- lHH:t ,voii were on iMiard llu> Hliip "Han IMego?" A.— YeH, sir Q.— On a walrnninf; trip? A.— llnntinK an Healn in tlie Iteliriuf; Sea? A. — YeH. Hir. Q. — Will .voH tell me what became of thowe Healn wiien .von came to Victoria? A. — Tlione Healn w«'re Hold by the nniH tor in Victoria. Q.— To whom? A.— To Mr. T. Fiiilibe. Q.— Yon sold them to T. Lul)l)e? A.— The master of the ship did. Q. — Ilut yon did not yonrnelf? A. — No. (/.—Do yon know that of yournelf? A.— That in the in foiimition I received from the nniHter of the Hlii|t. (i.— At the time? A.— At the time. yen. Hir. g.— That waH in the vear IHH.'l, waH it? A.— In tlie fall of '8;i. (i.— And you liad iS'Jfl neals? (i. — And liow many walrunes? many walnisen we had — wo did not have an.y ivory. Q. — Did you kill any walruses? have killed one or two. Q. — If it should turn out. Mr. Mclienn. that you did not brin^ that numl)er of seals to Mr. Lublte in that year, what would von sav? A. — Well, there inif^ht be a mistake in l!ie total. Q. — If it should turn out that you did brin>r th«'m there, but that tlwy were brought to Mr. L>ibbe in 1S82 A. — Yes, sir. A. — I cannot say as to liow we IukI some A. — No, sir — we mi){ht yon say what would San DieCfo" know how You had some seals broujjht by tlu in 1HH2? A.— Yes. sir, I think so. Q. — Who by and how nuiny? A. — I do not many there were in 1HS2 l)ecause I was not on board the ship. Q. — If it should turn out that tlu> exact amount of seiils whi<>h you mention as beinj; broufjht in 1SH:{ were l»rou};ht in 1S82. what would yon say? A. — It would be very stran^'e if 40 thev were brought in 1882 Iwcause I was on board llu- ship in 1883. Q. — It would not rpiite agree with the little book, would if A. — No, sir, it would not. Q. — J list another instance; I did not quite catch yonr ans- wer when Mr. Dickinson was examining you the other day. You hav<' in this Itook an account which purports to be the seals caught in 1887? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That is to say, any person looking at that would say that that is the amount of seals caught in the vessel in whicli yon were in 1887, would they not? A. — It might be to a per son looking at it in that way, but the total amount is not correct. Q. — That is what you say? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And l, !t5 seals; June 7, 12.5 seals; June 8, 1!>7 se-als; June 10, 172 seals; June 11, ;{8 seals. As a matter of fact n seals. It was considered pretty good 50 60 10 445 (Ali'X. .Mclit'im : — Ciiikh.) ^i'oiiimI, iiikI I iiiifjlit want to ^o tlicrt' iiKtiin. That Ih the lii-Mt catcli cvt'i' UMuU' on \hv Fair \V«'alli('r k>'<>i)i><1 •» l^!^"- ti.— Wlieiv (Hd yoii m't tlii' log of (he "Marv Klk-u"? A.— I'loiu tli«> iiiaHlcr of the Hliip. Q. — Who waM he? A. — iMiii MfU-an. (J.— Ho that is thf txphinatioii of thaf? A.— Yt's, sir. for lhi> iiionlh of .Innc, IMHH. (j, — it Ih a fart tht'ii that ,vou ])iit in tlifrc ho nian.v Hfaln, iipparciitlv aH caajiht in 1HS7? Now wlicn yon came to nialvc ap Ihf total catch of :\.')'2't Hcals in 1HH7, will you tell \iw when that wmh made up and why it waH made that way? A. — It Hhonld he exprcNNed ditfen-ntly in the book, I underHtood it NntYiciently for my own information. ti. — The entry at the bottom of tl»' itnpe Ih as followtc "Total. :W2.') HeiilK, 1SM7. A. MrLoan, Hchooner 'Marv Ellen,' >ictorin. H. ('." A.— Yes. Hir. (2. — Will yon tell me why yon totalled np these seals which 2Q were not cau<{ht in 1SS7 so aH to make them a]>pear as if they were canfjht in 1SM7? A. — I did not wish to make it api)ear as if they were cannht in 1HH7, and I just entered thoni up in that way. Q. — That is your ex]»lanati(m for having totalled th<>ni np in that way? A. — I tixwHH that I had all the positions down and nnmliei- of seals for the dilTerent years and I added them up. Did I not jjive the total for the "Mary Ellen" for 1887 on Saturday last? It amounted to 2.4llt» and some odd. I kcj»t that book for my own information and I never expected 30 it to appear in court. The ("ommiHsioner on the jmrt of Iler Majesty: — There is also a pencil mark there •'188(!." Who put that there? Mr. Peters: — Tlint was n memorandum he was makint; up in court. I will ask him that questicm. ii. — I want you to ex])lain what those words are written in pencil? A.— June, 18HG. ii. — When did you make that entry in jwucil there? A. — 40 NN'hen I was adding it uj* in court here on Friday afternoon, 1 think. It was just to sho' that tlu'se belonged to 188(». (J. — And also these tl>j;nres -'4!M!." These were put in the hook lately. A. — Yes. sir, taat was Saturday afternoon when I was making up the dates for the <'atch of 1887. Q. — Do yon notice at the liottom of this same pan^' I am rcferrinjj; io, the pafje referring to 1887. there was a word written there which vou scratched out? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— What was that word? A.— "Master." (i. — When did yon scratch that out? A. — Some time aRO. iO i], — How lonjj a^o? A. — I cannot say exactly. (}. — lint I want you to state exactly, how loufj; ago is it that yon scratched that word out? A. — Probably a month or probably two months. (}. — Tell me what object yon had a month or two months ajjo in scratcliinfi anythinfi out of this book? A. — When I received a lettt'r from Mr. Hodwell at San Francisco I tliouftlit probably I miftht recpiire to be here, and then in lookinj; over my books 1 found that would be a mistake. Q. — As soon as you heard you were likely to jjive evidence ''O you commenced scratching things out of that book? A. — I scratched out what T tlionglit would not bo correct. I scratched out the word "master" be<8;{" did you stratcli Moiut'tliinf; out? A. — Yes, sir, I Bcratihcd sometliiu}; out tlu'iv, I scratclunl "niastiT" olt'. Q. — You iiad yourself down as master of the "San l)ie};o"? A. — Yes, sir, there was a (ajttain on board, but I did tlie navigatiiifj, so tluit actuall.v I was the practieal master. (2. — Orjiiinallv in tliis booii for 1SS:{. wlien in llie scliooner "San Diefjo" vour entry was "A. McLean, master of tlie schooner 'San Diego'? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And tliat entry remained in that boolv for liow h>ng a time? A. — Till probably about a month or six weeks ago. Q. — Had you any object in scratching it out? A. — Yes. (i.— Wli-at object? A. — IJecause I was not the actual mas- ter ai the lime, I was the jtractical master. I acted as nayi 20 30 40 50 60 -Yes, *' < ■ • I gator and k(';)t the ship's log book. (.i. — That was incorrect and you struck it out. ... . . ., sir, there was a master that was on board the ship and he cleared her from the Custom House and entered hei-. Q. — There was iinother entry I wanted you to (>xplain — for the year 1SS7. You haye an entry made liere running on the face of the page rej (resenting the year 1SS7 "Add .'50 miles to longitude." \Yhat do you mean by that? A.— I found after my position was taken that my chronometer was out .'5(1 miles. Q. — Out .*?(» miles? A. — Yes, sir. '.W miles or 2 minutes. Q. — When did you find that out? .\. — I found that out later on in the season, that is after I made my catch of seals. ^vhen I got an obseryati(m and could lake it jtroperly. Q. — ^Yllen did you make that entry? A. — Tliat entry was made when I was making uj) this log. of the "Mary Ellen" for Mr. IV'ters:- 1880? -Have vou the lot Mr. Dickinson: — T'nless it is in one of those luxdis. Mr. ^Yarren:— >Ye haye not it. Mr. Peters: — (To witness): Q. — Now will you tell me vvlu. was the captain of the "San Diego" in 188:5? A. — ('apt. Cathcurt cleared her from (he Cus(on) House. y. — How do you spell that word? A. — C a t h-c-u-r-t. Q. — And you sailed from San Francisco at what time of that year? A. — I cannot say the exact date, but it might have been in March probably. Q. — And you went along the coast to Kehring Sea? A.— - Along th(^ coast at (irst. Q, — And then to 15ehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Aiul came back to Victoria? A. — Y''s, sir. (y — And you lef( your ci'ew at N'ictcn'ia? .\. — 1 am no( sure if all the f:ri'w were left iiere or not. Tlie most of it was probably left or it might be all tif them. Q. — 1 am now g<(ing to take you to another matter. You have told us that tliere is a great dilference between canoes and boats, and that you object to canoes wiih wliite men in them. As a matter of fad did you ever do any scaling with while men in canoes? A. — I have liad while men (o go out in canoes fi-om the vessel, but I have not made a gen- ei'al iiractice of it. (i. — Then you have iiai scaling, smne limes (hey gel up as liigli as no or ')'> seals; that is a pi'cKy larye day's caldi. ' m 447 lAlcx. .Mclx'jiu: — (Ji'oss.) Q. — IIow iiijiiiv (lavs ()od as an Indian could do? A. — It niiffht be. If i( ju'oved a success it is sli-anjje they do not follow it up. Q. — If a vessel was seized you could not follow it u]», could you? A. — No, Itul if I was going out again and found it sue- cessfid I think I wcuild try it again. (i. — All you know is that yon did not try? A. — No, I do not apjifove of it. I do not think it would prove a success. il — Hut it ])roved in tliis case that it was? A. — It niiglit iiave been in that case, i>iii according to the catch you niadt' 2a Up to the day you were k ized it did not look to jirove Vi'vy successful. Q. — .\nd that dej»ends on a great many circumstances as you say? A. — Yes, sir, it does. Q. — On the number of canoes, the number of men, and all that sort of thing? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Now I want to take you to another matter. You slated that you had a great deal to do with the vessels? A. — Yes. sir, I had some. <.i. — Tell me how many vessels you si)ecially paid for the ',C) outtllting of? A. — Of cours<' I did not actmilly jtay, but I made out the bill, what was reid you make out the bills that were wanted? .\. — Yes, sir. (-1. — Yon mexn tlial you did nuike out the bills for what y(Mi wanted for certain trij)s? A. — Yes, sir. (■i. — I want to know how numy yon made out? A. — I made up the bill for everv vessel 1 had been on board of except 4" (he "San Diego" and "Mary Ellen" for 1887. (i. — That is two you did not make out? A. — Yes, sir. Q.- -In 1HS;{ you say you were on the "San Diego"? A. — ^ <", sir. ii. — ^"ou did not make out that bill, did yon? A. — I did not make init her bills. (i. — In 18H4 what vessel were von on? A. — The "Favour- ite." (2. — Did you make out the l»ills that year? A. — Yes. sir. -Q (2. — ^'ou made out llie bills of what was reipiired? A. — ^'es, sir. (J — And in ISS') what ship weri' you in? A. — The "Fa- - voiirite." (i.— Have you the liills for ISSI? A.— No. sir. t2. — ^'o^ have not Iheaccoujjls of what it would cost? A. — No, sir, the accounts were (diieed in the Ixioks. ♦2.— NN'hen did you see them? A. — I exjieci I must have seen them in ISS4. ^ t2- — Vou have not seen them since? A. — No. I think not, but of coiirsi' I miglil liave seen tiiem since ilicn. '2- — Do .^«>u know wiiat you actually spent in the "Favour- ite" ill |,'«!st.' A.— I cannot say as lo the exact ligiires fof I'^SJ, but the books will show that. <2— NoSy then I will take you to ISH."). In what siiip were \<>\\ liicn?' .\. hi the scluioner "Favourite." (2- Did yuii niilii' ihr tilings llial were rci|iiii\'(l thai ,m:ii? a. Ves. sir. :im i(«Mt''; lO 20 3*^ 40 50 60 448 (AK'x. McLem: — Cross.) il. — Do you know what thoy amounted to? A. — I cannot say exactly what vlie amount is. Q. — Well, can you say ap'/roximately? A. — I could by rtyuring it, I could make uj nearly the exact expense of tht' vessel. Q. — lUit you cannot sa' from memory? A. — No, sir, not from memory. Q. — ^^'hat vessel v ^'l•o you in in 1880? A. — The "Favoui' ite." Q. — Did you n.ake the bills out that year? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You mad>' out the bills for what was rcipiired that year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know what amount of money was spent? A. — I could not say as to the exact amount, but I could make up the ship's expense for the lime she was out. Q. — Can you say how much there was s]K'nt api)roximate ly? A. — It would depend on the number of men on board the vessel — I could make out the statement. Q. — You are fjoiuf; to make a calculation I presume of IpidO a man for so many months? A. — Yes. sir, on the way it averages. I could make out a general average. Q. — I will come to tliat in a minute and see where it will land you. That is the way you would make it up now if you figured it out? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Your calculation would dejM'iid on tlie correctness of your averag;- of fsiOO. say ^10 a month for a man? A.— That is what I have found to be the average, and I have done so several times. (.}. — And that is the way you would calculate it? A.— V. s, sir. Q. — In 1SS7 what vessel were you on? A. — I was out in the scliooner "Mary Ellen.'' 1 will give you of wlia* it c««(s. \. — She cost about f'JIU) a moutli to run lier for provisions. Q. — (}iv(> me the total of Ihe (rip? A. — 1< dei)ends upon (he number of mondis we were ou(. In coming out we miglit have some stores lefl from (lie voyage. iy — Do yon Know how long yon were ou(? .\. — I <'an no( sav e.\ac(lv liow long we were ou( but the log book shows (ha(?" Mr refers:— It ought to show it but I do not know wheth- er it does or not. To the witness: -I only want (o see what your memory is in (he maKer. I'^iom your memoiy vim have undertaken (o (ell ns wliat ouglil (o be put on board a ship? .\.- Ye", .ar, pretty closely, 1 J 20 30 ■10 !;o On 449 (Al«'x. McLfiin — <."ross.) Q. — Now I will giv^e you one or two items. You do puf pilot bread on board a vessel don't you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What quantity? A. — A little over a box or so aver- ;i{;e to eaeli l)oat. H. — That is always your eustoni? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — No matter whelher you have Indians or white men on lioai'd? A. — There wotild be a dilTerence with Indians. Q. — How mueh dilTerence? A.- ^ n.ied to trad?? with the Indians and sell them ])iscuits and ])i'ovisions. Q. — How niu-h dilTerence would ;he.'e be? A. — There would be quite a dilTerence. T would carry probably about six or seven boxes of the l>read to give to Indians. Q. — Th.it is what you have been in the habit of doing? A. V<'s, sir, and the balan<'(^ tiiey would have to buy. Q. — That would make about 12 boxes you would carry rtl- tdgetlier? A. — Less than that. Q. — That is your usual custom? A. — Yes. sir, when first I went down the coast I used to give them from two to four biscuits a day when hunting. When not hunting he would not get biscuits. Tie would luive to buy Ihem. (i. — \Ve have this geneial statenient from you that under no circii.ustances you would icciuire more tlian lU or 14 boxes of l»iscuits? A. — Well, you would re<|uire more than tliat if you did not have anything else to eat but bi.scuits. Q. — Of course you would, if you fed them (Ui bisc\iits and water I do not know what the conseciuences would be; but you say that if you had meat and everything else you would not require so many biscuiis, would yir.i? A. — No, I should think not; we jjenerally cany tiiem in case of accident or something lik(> that. We want to have them ready in case we were sliipwrecked or anytliing like that. Q. — That is vour general statement? A. — Yes, sir. (^.—Tlicre was a log kei>r on the "Favourite" for IHSfi? A. — Yes, sir. (J. — I wish to know from you whether that is a correct en- try in the log under date of the 7lh July , IHSIi. You refer to theie being strong west winds and you say "the crew were ro- ftoring the hold and taking an inventory of t'le sliij/s pro- visions? Among otlier IJiingH I tiud li" lioxes o. bread." Is lliat t'lere? .\.— Yes, sir. Q.— That is i)ilot bread, 1 suppose? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— What is that for? A.— Tliat would be partly for the use of the crew and partly for sale to the Indians. Q._So that you had been at sea from liie 122nd of May and iin (lie 7th July you l^ad -7 boxes of bread on board? .\. — ^^'s. sir. Q.— .\nd you say tliat is i)ilot bread. A.- lieve tliat is correct. (i. — I understood you to say a moinciit ago circumstances whetlii'r with Indians 01 white men you would wiiiit more than 12 boxes? .\. 12 boxes would b<' f(M- tiie siiiji's use but you would carrv inoie for sah to tlie Indians. (J. — x„w this purports to !»■ an entry in >our log book and vou say you foiind 27 box^'s of bread there? .\. — Yes, sir. (J.— What do you say to that? A— Tart of that was for sale to the Iniliaiis. of trade. Q. — Now they would not have a chance of taking that bread from off the ship and trade with until the voyage was over? .\. — Tln-y us -d to buy goods from the vessel. (i. — Hut on board *ihip they would not have a chance to do anything wiili the goods I'xcept to eat them? A. — That is all and at the end of the voyage thev would buy what was on board the shi]i and lake it ashore. (.}. — Hut duiing the voyage they could not and would not buy anything I'Xcept what they could eat? .\. — Sometimes they might buy some boxes of bread on the way I'oining down or they might buy tlour or sonuMhing in the way of ti.ide. Q. — \Vill yo\i tell me what a sack of tlour contains? .\. — Well there is .ilnoit four sacks to the bari'el. Q. — .\ barrel contains iltMi )iouiids and that would be .■)(( lbs. to a sack. I bclie\e foi' sealing puiposes you always have the supply of tlour luit in sacks. .\. — Yes. sii". Hut sometimes wc put sacks (■' flour into casks to keep it from getting damp. (2. — lint f(U' the pnrp<»se of stowing it away, as a rule yoti carried it in sacks? A. — Some ships cari'ied it in that way. but I have seen them put into large casks. {}. — That is to say vou (■ni(>tied the sai'ks into casks? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — \o uialler liow you stoic it away. If you go to bn,\ Hour foi- a shiji's us" how do you buy it? .\. — We buy il liv the bnrrcl. il. — .\\u] your bill would ap))ear as if so many barrels went on board? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .\lihougli as a matl<'r <>( fact yon nniy have stored il on your ship in sacks or in casks? A. — Yes, sir. It gene rall.N comes on board in sacks and we put it in casks after- \» aids. Q.— \ow I find in 'his invcaiory that bi-sides liie bread yon had on board the sdioouer ai lliai lime you also had 42 sacks of Hour? .\. — Yes. sir. (i. ~ That is light is it? .\.— Y in June. (}. — You left here in May. e.xcuse nu>? A. — In May was it? Well the books will show the day. At the time we were trad iiig with the Indians aiul carried goods ou board and prob ably they would want some advance before leaving the coast Uefore we took the canoes on board probably the Indians might retjuire to leave some provisions on shore to keep their families until their return and then we would go to work and siiftply them and give an advance of 10 or l'^ dollars with tile goods. Other times they might not reipiire any and on that account we would have some goods on board the ship when we returiud. We always had iiinie thau we reijuired for trading jtiu-poses. (i.— That is your explanation? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you go to any Indian plact>s that year that you are aware of? A. — I suppose we did to several places, my books will show that. (i. — Did you make the ordinary advance to the Indians? A. — Whatever was necessary. Q. — .\nd notwillistanding tliat yon had 5 1-2 kegs of sugar? .\. — Some Indians might want to buy a canoe and I would ad Viince tliem the goods or the cash to luiy it. (i. — In addition to (hat I see that you had 2 12 barfels of beef on that dav? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.— And a barrel and a half of pork? .\. — Yes. sir. (J.— Tliat is abo\it right is it? A.— That would be righi fill' the number of men we had. Q. — Leaving that log. I want to see semelhing again. I want to see again iiow correct your statement abo\it sii|(])lies is in this litll"' book llial you pnidiice, ^'ou havv a s1a(<' nicnl at the back of llie boolv which ])urports to be "llunling outfit of fight i)oats, 12S men, for nine months' voyage," does it not? .\.- Yes. sir. Q. — That is what it purports to be? \. — Yes, sir, that was niade for the sciiooncr "Honanza." (j.-WIwu? A.— In ls»J4. Q.— In tH84? A. In 1S04 ratlur T should say. Q. — .\nil it shows the actual atnoiint of sliilT that you put onboard lur? A. — Yes sir, the actual amount that went on bojird the sliip. iii;! 452 MIMt 10 20 (Alt'x. MclA'iin — CroHB.) Q. — V-.m yon tell mi' wlicii you inatU' that iip? A. — That was made up in 1894 for the voyagf, after the ship weut to Hea. (i. — You made it yourself? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — It is in your luindwriting? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Tliat is wluit actually took place? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, I want to come down to one item in this. \'ou have hei'e an entry for 2.(I0(( lbs. of supai? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did that go on board? A. — Yea, sir, that went on board. The ("omniissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — How lonfi a voyaffe with how many men? A. — It is a voyage for eipiit boats and 28 men. and is for nine months' voyape. Q. — Does the book show whether they were white men or Indians? A. — They were white hunters Ky Mr. Peters: — It also shows, does it not, '20 barreit' beef, and 10 barrels pork? A. — Yes. sir. 33 40 =;o Go -And 150 sacks of (lotir? A. — Yes, sir. -And a larse cpiantity of canned floods? A. — Yes, sir. -One thousand eight hundred lbs. butter? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And 500 pounds codfish? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — And a large amount of other items, and these prices are according to tlie i)rices in San Francisco, are they not? You put in San Francisco prices when you were making up the l)ill? A. — Yes, sir. according to the San Francisco prices for I8!»4. Q. — Let me ask you this question: When you were making you calculations of about #100 a month, did you calculate at the San Francisco jtrices, or did you not? .\. — 1 calculated at the San Francisco i)rices. (.}. — Are they higher or lower than \'ictoria prices? A. — I believe they would be higher at tliat time. There would lu' the difference .if duly and freight u]) here. Q. — Were they higlier or nnf A. — 1 cannot say what prices here w«>r(' at that time. (^. — Then, sir, wlicn you were making the calculation that it would cost ?10 per nian ]h'V month, you were makinu a cal- culation on till' basis of San Francisco prices? A. — San Friincisco prices. i.}. — ^'ou did not know the dilTerence between the prices in Siin Fi;iniis<() and \'irice in San l^rancisco. An- other tiling, in making out that stalciuent, this vessel was owned by ilie racific Trading <"oiii|)aiiy in S;iii I'^raiicisco. and they owned six or se\('ii otiier vessels. This \ essel cmi' lied (■onsi;oinn to net out of this. 1 ask you lliis question: This book does not, therefore, state the faii* ( (»st of i»rovisioninK (hat vessel alone? A. — It was not pul in intentionally for lliat. 1 put in the exaet eost to that vessel when she left San Franeisco that year. Q. — llavinjj made th(> statein«'nt that it does not eorrectly represent it, will you tell me what object you had in putlinfT in this heading to it: "Hunting outfit, eiftht boats and 2.S men "for nine months' voyajie?" A. — Yes, sir. H. — What was your objeet? A. — My objeit was to show what the ship's expenses were from the time she left Kan Fiancisco. Q. — To show to whom? A. — To show for myself. I wanted to see what tlie v<'ssel would elear at the end of the voyage. Q. — Answer me this: Why did you not put the name of i u vessel at the top of that statement in that book? A. — la ii not there? (2. — No, nor anywhere in it? A. — Her name is in that book for ]S!)4, where she made her eatch there. Q. — I'erhaps it is. Her name is in that book, is it? A. — Her name, the schooner "Honanza," is there. Q. — When did you i)Ut that there? A. — That was proba- bly i)iit there about three or four weeks ago — or it might be later. iy — Now, what object had you in putting that name there tlwee or four wei'ks 4° I go ? A. — Hecause I was master of the 1.0 .siii]i and 1 did not enter it there. And I also added u]) that ••olumn that was not added up before. ii- — In the tiist place, both in the outfit account and with regard to the vessel, you omitttKl the name originally. Well, tell nie why you put that in three or four weeks ago? A. — ISecause the column was not added up and I had forgotten it. Q. — Why did you put in this entry, "Alexander McLean, master "schooner 'Honanza,' three or four weeks ago? A. — Hccause I was master, and it had not been jjlaced there before. ti. — Why did you not put it in (here before? .\. — I sup- pose 1 neglected putting it there. I did not tinish it. ti. — Now, then, if any ix'rson were to take this outtit ac- count book — "Sealing ouifit of H boats and US men," and try to get information fi'om it, he would think by looking at that liooU tiiat it contained an account of what it would cost to fit out thiit vessel for one season? A. — Yes, sir. iy — Hut he would be deceived in that? \. — It was not iiil ended for that puri>ose. se of that kind? .\. — No, sir. (i-— Is that trui ' .\.— Yes, sir. Q- — Will yon sw^ ir that it is true? .V. — Yes, sir. Q- — I will follow hat out and see if it could jiossibly be true. You took all t e exjiem^es at first? ,\. — Yes, sir. Q- — And you add tli mi up? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — .\nd then you '..Mow it on: "Cost of getting 2.(t()ll seals at *;{.(»(> j)er seal to huntcis, *(t,(IO(t; Iti seals at |2.()0(l," and other items. And thi-n you sav there were 2,00(1 seals l.f Wl^pplpip U\KHcl did not fjct tliat many. That wan niad«' up on th<' voyage of 1SH4, iK-foro the end of thf 8«'aHon. I tinnrcd it out on till' basis of p'ttinf; 2,(I0(» seals, to^ s«'(* what protlt she would nu\la< brfori' we not to San FrancisVct. It did not eonio out correct, because we did not fjet tlie 2.(I0(» seals. (i.— This calculation was made in advance? A.— Yew. sir. (^. — iJefore you jjot the seals? A. — Yes; that was made on the vovajite H'>"'>I across, and the entnes of the accounts of tile sliip in tliat boolv. Tlien I tinm-ed on sujiposinji I would jiet 2.(KH) seals, what profit she would make. After I return- ed from the voyajje 1 did not correct it. (i.— And you" based that calculation by clmrninn your ship Willi stores and other jjoods, which you say you minht give to other vessels? A.— Of course, my intention was to credit her a^jain at the end of the voyage. I did not do so, as I did not complete that statement. 1 put that in for my own private use. Q.— Now, this account purports to contain three separate headinfjs, does it not? First, boats, (j;uns and ammunition? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— |2,4!»2.8rj? A.— Yes, sir. g.— The s»'coud. slop chest and advances, #2,788? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— The third, groceries and provisions, f3,204.9.")? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— Total ouUit, #7,575.80? A.— Yes, sir. (i. — And any person reading that would imagine that that was the outfit for one ship. coiilainiiiK 28 men and 8 boats? A. — Yes. that is what went on board that ship for that voyage. (i. — .\nd before that entry, you have a detailed statement of each one of these things. In the first place, you have the hunting gear, boats, guns, and ammunition. f2,4!)2.85 — that is the lirst tiling you made up? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — And then you have adviinees to crew, and slop chest, amounting to what? A.— #(i(;8.(l8. Q. — Here von have groceries and provisions, and thev come to what? A.— #2.2!»4.!»."). Q. — May I ask you whether the guns and ammunition and boiits that are in this book were for that one vi'ssel? A.— Yes, sir. (}. — You carried no ammunition for other vesesls? A. — If tlu'y got run short, I might have sjiare ammunition on board. (i. — Did you take spare ammunition for other v«>ssels, or did you not? A. — I took some, in case they were run short. il. — How much? A. — I cannot say; the book will show. I probably might have three kegs to spare. I always carried plenty of ammunition, and I have given ammunition to ships sailing out of here that would run short. Q. — \Yould the slop chest be sudicieni for your own vessel, (M- was it for others? A. — More than suflit-ient for my own own vessel. (i. — Why did you do that? A. — If any other vessel run short, I would have soim' to give them. (i. — .\n(l did the other vessels carry an extra supply also? .\. — \o; this vessel was a larger vessel, and took su])plies and brought back skins to San Francisco. (■l- — That being the case. sh(> being larger than any other, and being a .supply siiip and not exactly a sealing sliip, will you tell me w'ly you chose her to jmt her suitjdies in this book? .\. — It sh.nvs I jiut every article in the ship there. Q. — Kilt the (jueer [»art is that you did not i>iit in the name of the slii])? ,\. — You can refer to the other page for the catch of 18S4, I livlicvc. It may be a ton or two nuu'c or Ii'mh. (i. — Vou luivc that log? A. — Yes, Hir. (i.— And it can b«' obtained before this <'onuni8sion. either liere or in San Francisoo? A. — Yc^, sir. ii. — And you will deliv(>r it here, will vou? .\. — Vch. sir, I will. Q. — .\8 a matter of faet, did you deliver stores to other ves sels that year? A. — I did, sir. ().— To what amount? A.— 1 cannot exactly say to what amount. Q. — Do you know to what vessels? A — Yes, sir. (j. — What vessels? .\. — One was the schooner "Herman," the other the schooner ".Mexander," belonging to the same employer. Q. — Did you keep a record of tl'em? tlie record of it here, but could tind t)Ut referring to the ship's agents. I gave the came to San Francisco. Q. — It wont appear in your log? .V..- will appear in my log. (i. — Who was the ship's agent there? Q. — You have here 1(5 shotguns. No. uuirked at #(15 each — was that the amo; Thai is what the average cost of the guns would have been Som of these guns would run all the way from ^'.W up to 180. They were second hand guns; they liad been used one year on the "Alexanfler." Q.— So that you were actually paying, then, |(t5 for .second- liand guns? A. — They bebmged to the same tirm. but were taken out of another ship. We jdaced a vjilue of IftiS on Ihem, and that would be about their actual cost right th(>re. y.- And the boats yon charged for at ¥1(K» each? A.— Yes. sir they were extra built boats. (i. — Of course, there is no doubt about that? A. — Yes, sir; ( xtra built boats; it was a new improvement that was made on boats the year before that — in lH!t4. Q.— And I see you had !2 tons of salt? -A.— Yes. sir. ii. — Now, yon have given us a good deal of evidence here as lo the value <»f vessels, have you not? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— 1 was much struck with the idea that you must be a very experienced man in valuing vessels. In the first place, you went through the names of all the vessels you could think iif? A.— I suppose so. (J.— You stated that all these vessels came from San Fran- tisco. the most of them? A. — At that time, sir. (i.— As a matter of fact, did not some of thest! vessels that you named as coming from San Fran- A. — I have iu)t got in San Francisco by amount of it when I -No. I don't think it A.— A. r. Lorantz. 1(». and the price is int .vou paid? A. — ongmallv lome frh<>r of such vesBfls, were tlicro not? A. — There wen- a few — probably there wore three ov tour of them. Q. — We will perhafm tlnd a litth' more than that? A. — Tliere may be. Q. — If tlie AniericanH could l)iiy veHHcls so clieaply at San Fraiicimo, can you (ell me wliy they wi're >?<'tlin}; llu'in aronnd from (lie eastern eoast? A. — That would be some years af;o. Some of these vessels would come out as survey boats and l)e owned, and ]ierhapH rebuilt at San Francisco liefore they came here. (i.— As a mater of fact, in IHSH, ISSO, and 1H!M>, a larffe number of vessels came around from the eastern coast? A. — They came to N'ictoria liere, and a cou]ile came to San Francisco, too. 20 Q. — Only two of them? A. — Only two in those years. Two was all I can remember. Q. — At all events, a Uwm' nund)er came around from Nova Scotia and other pans of the eastern coast? A. — Yes, sir, that is, in ISSS and I.^W). Q. — And these were boufrht by pretty shrewd business men here, were they not? A. — I should think they would be. They ou};ht to be quiilitied to buy a «uy them. Q. — And you liave no doultt that they were (inalitied? A. 30 — They mijjht be, some of them. (i. — Now, we will just see about these shijis. The "Mary Kllen" came from San Francisco? She was built on this side, was she? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And the "Theresa"? A. — She was built in San Fran- cisco. Q.— And the "Anna Heck"? A.— The "Anna Heck'' was built in the I'nited States, what part I do not know, but she came from San Francisco here. Q. — ran you say whether the "Anna Iteck" was built on 40 the Fast side or the West side of America. A. — I do not know what side of America she was built on. Q. — You do not know anythinfj about her? A. — I know of the vessel, and have been on board of her. Q. — You do not know whether she <'ame from some part of Massachussetts or not? A. — 1 only know she came from San Francisco. Q. — And what about the "Sierra"? A. — She was an Am- erican built vessel. y. — What part of America? A. — San Francisco, I be- 5° lieve. (2.— Will you sweai- it? A.— No, sir. (i. — When did she conu' here? A. — She came lu're prob- ably in 1HS(!. (i. — \Vas she here? A. — I jfuess she was; I cannot s.ny that she was here positively, but I know she was on the American .side. Q. — IMd she come here in ISSO or 1S87? A. — I believe she was liere in 1SS(!. Q. — Will you swear whether she was here in iSSO or not? .\. — No, sir; I will not. (2. — Will you swear she was here in 1SS7? A. — No; I can- not swear to that, but if she was here at all. she was here in IRSO. Q. — Was she here at all? A. — I saw her at sea, and saw the master of her here in 1SS7. Q. — As a matter of fiict, you do not know whether she was here a1 all or not? A. — I cannot swear to that vessel. 60 45; 10 (Alex. Mc!.<>an — Cross.) Q. — Tlic "Han .Ioh«>," where wim shi" built? A. — She wn« built in Stiu KranciHco. Q.— WuM hIic here in 18H(> or 1SH7? A.— Hlic wuh here in ISMT. (i.— Not in 1HH(!? A.— I do not think hIic was here in ]SH(!, bccauHc I believe hIiu was built in IHHI!. and her first HeaKon was in 1SS7. ii. — How do .vou know she was built in Ran Francisco? A. — She was built close to San Francisco. I saw her coniin;; in and came u]> the Straits with her. i}. — Will you swear she was here in 1SS7? .\. — I think so. i}. — Do vou swear to it? A. — I cannot swear to it. It nui.v have be<>n in May. IHMS. slie came here. il — Now, Mr. Mcliean. I do not want to take .vou at any disadvanta)j;e. Vou have ^one through a lon^ list of ships, and I ask you if you did not swear in your examination that that vessel was here in 1HM7? A. — I will swear she was here ,Q in IHSH, because 1 was ujt the Straits with her. Mr. Dickinson: — On direct examination, this witness was not asked whether a Ion}; list of shii)s came to Victoria or not. The testinnmy went to show that they were fitted out for .'■••ealinn vessels, and it was not that they came to Victoria. Mr. Peters: — I have the rl^ht to find ont whether they did or not. Mr. Dickinson: — Yes; luit you slated a moment afjo that ^Q this witness in his direct testimony stated that these ships •^ came here in 1.SSC. or 1H87. Mr. Peters: — I did so understand his evidence — Mr. Dickinson: — I want to correct you on that. The point was in the examination that these vessels were fitted out for sealers In San Francisco, and not thai they came iiere. Mr. Peters: — My learned friend asked first about n list of vessels and then he asked about a list of vessels whidi chanji- 40 ed hands). 1 am referrinfj to the first one now. (To witness): This vessel was not here to your knowledge in ISSCi? A.— No, I believe that it was in May. 1S8S. that I tiist saw her here. 1 came up the Straits in companv with lier. (2.— Is that the first you saw of her— May. 1HS8? A.— That was the first I kiu'W of her. Of course, she was built before that. Init that was the first I saw of her. (■i. — You never knew her before? A. — I don't believe I had ^o seen her. Q. — Was she in the sealiufj business or not? A. — I do not liiiow that she was out in 18JS7, but I know that she was out in 1888. Q. — You do not know if she was in the sealing business in 1S88? A.— She was in the sealiufj business in 18H8. Q. — The "San Diego" was the one you were in? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Was she here in lS8(i? A. — I cannot exactly say she was in here, but she was in the sealing business. Q. — She was actually engaged? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— The "San Diego" was actually seized in 1880? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And therefore was not in the market to be bought by Mr. Munsie? A. — I believe she was released and sold after- wards. Q. — T have here a list made ont by Mr. Milne purporting to l>e a list of schooners at N'ictoria suitable for sealint, busi- ness in 1880 or 1887. 60 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) O ^ >. Y '^S 4^ 4^ % 1.0 ^K< 1^ ■tt iii2 12.2 Z 1^ 12.0 I I rhotographic Sdences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STRUT wnSTIR.N.Y. I4SM (716)I79-4S03 f ,''': 'ljiM>n, 5^ 4S8 (Ah'x. McLenii — Cross.) Tbe Coniinismonor Itritish v(>hs(>Ih. Mr. IVt(M"8: — Y«'H. on the part of \\w I'liitod States: — The Commissionor on tho part of tlu> I'niti'd Ktatos: — That is a 158t of vessels re^^istorcd at Victoria? Mr. IN'ter."*: — Chared from Victoria, lo Mr. Dicliinson: — But liritisli vessels. Mr. Peters: — I am Hiin]il,v asliin^' him to looli over that list and to answer the i|uestion whether there were an.v oth- er Kritish vessels at VictiH'ia at that time that Im' kno'Ws of outside of that list (list refern-d to Kxhibit Hi. <}. \\. ••Caro- lena" case.)? A.— That is as was owned here? Q.— Hritish vessels at N'ictoria? A.— There w is one Hiil ish vessel called the "L«»ttie Fairti»'ld" and I do not see hei- 20 in that list. Q.— What size was she? A.— AlM»ut H»4 tons, I think. Q. — When was she emplo.ved in the sealing business? A. —In 1887. Q.— rp to 18H(i and int-ludinfj 1MS« were any vessels of the tonnage of the "I^ottie Fairfield" employed in sealing? A. - No, sir. Q.— When did you first begin to employ su<'h large ves sola? A. — That was the largest vessels that we employed up to that time that I know of. 30 Q. — Even now? \. — There must he large vessels now. Q. — What is the size of the largest vessel they employed in the business then? A. — We emjtloy vessels at the pre sent time from about 21)0 tons to :UIO tons. Q. — But I am asking you another question, originally they did not employ large vess«»ls? A. — No. sir. they used t«» have at that time about 80 ton vessels. Q.— The "FiOtiie Fairfield" was not sealing in 1880? A.— \o. sir, she was in 1887. she was offered for sale in 188r(. Q. — That is rhe only British vessel that you remeniber at ^ present? A. — Yes. Q. — So that this list, exhibit 16, is practically complete with the exception of the "Lottie Fairfield?" A. — I suppose it is. Q. — You believe it to be do you not?? A. — I believe it is. I did not keep a complete record of all vess«'l8 that were here at that time. Q. — Now I just want \» read you the list of vessels and see whether I do not give you a complete list of tlu' Ameri can sealing vessels that were employed in 180G. Do you remember the names yon gave us on Saturday last? .\. — 1 do not suppose I would reiin'mber them all. but 1 might re member some of them if I heard them. Q. — Do yon remember any American vessels Hint wer«' en gaged in sealing in 1880? \. — Yes, sir. Q. — Name some of them? A.— There was the "Alexand er" and the "Vanderbilt." Q. — I will read you these names and you will say if they are right. There was the ".Mexand«'r?" A. — Y<'s. sir. Co Q.— And the "Allie 1. Alger." was she there in 1880? \. —1 think 1887 w.is her first year. Q. — Rhe was not there in 1886, that is your o]»inion? .\.— 1 do not think so, but 1 lfot a list of them for 1880. Q.— Can you name any others? A. — I cannot name any 20 other at present sir. Q. — In 188fi as a matter of fact did not a good many of the Ncssels that went out ro otter huntin{; more than seal hunt- inR? A. — Some of them were otter hnniing and some seal hunting. g. — \Vas not the chief business of some of them otter hunt- ing? A. — Yes, sir. (j. — In 1887 the number of vessels in H(>al hunting increas- ed tt good deal? A. — Y'^es, 1 believe so. Q. — Where did the chief bulk of Uie American vessels 30 come from that were hunting seals? A. — Prom ditTen*nt . aces. Some of them came from Japan. Q. — And wliere els*'? A. — Some of tliem I supp<»8e «'arie from San Francisco. Q. — Hid any of them come round the Horn? A. — In 188" I do not think so. 1 do not believe there were any came around in 1887. Q. — In 1888, there were not so many engaged, 1 believe, in m'al hunting? A. — Yes, there were some vessels came iiere in 1888. Q. — Wher«* from? A.— Prom the eastern provinces. Q. — Did they come from San Prancisco loo? A. — 1 think so. Q.— In 1889 the "Lottie" came around the Tlorn? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, yo)i said you had a good deal to do with the sale iif vessels aiid that you sold several vessels. I have the names of them lure that von said you sold, and I ask you if von yourself had something to do with the selling of some vcHsels? A. — Yes, sir. i}. — Ifow many vesselH had you actually to do with the siile of? A. — I have Imh'U int«'reste«l in (linH' vessels. (J. — You had something to do with th«' selling and buying of three vessels? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Outside of that had you anything to do with the pur- ilins*' or sale of a vwsel? A. — Not here, excepting them llii-ce. iy — Had you anywhere else excej>t here? \. — I had In Sun Francisco. Q. — What vessels did you buy in San Fmncisco? ,\. — f inspected vesHels for other parties. ls were tliev? \. — The ".Limes HaniiHon 1. 1 'Wis." <>.— Was hIm' n sealer? A. — Yes. sir U. — The other was the steamer ".Mexander." was she n ^litliT? A.— Yes. sir. ke of the "Mary Kllen" as beint; sold some time between 1SH4 and 1SS(». IIow do you know anything; about that? A. — Onefourlh intei-est in her was sold to my br<»ther, Dan McLean. Q.— NVhen was that? A.— That was in tho fall of ISS:!. (J. — And lu' bought her for sealing? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — At that time sealing; was not so much eiif^af^ed in as in 18S(i? A. — No. there was some local here. y. — ^Yhen did von first see tlu 188:{. i}. — And the \Y. V. Sayward, that was sold. IIow do yon know anything about that? \. — Mr. Lainj;, the owner of her at the time told me. Q.— I think that von snid that that huntiii|{ outside 'Marv Ellen"? A.— In one -H. ,. broujiht |«.0(M>? A. — I believ*' half of her was transferred for |.1,<»(l(). Q. — You believe It. but do you sjiy it is rifjht? .\. told me so himself, Mr. Lain); did. Q. — \Yhat do yon know about the sale of the "Kate"? .\. — Part of her was sold in 1H84. Q. — I>o yon know that? A.— Yt*, sir, one-third of her. Q. — How do you know? .\. — Itt'cause I owned an inteifsi In one-third of her. (i.— In 1SM4? A.— Yes, in the fall of i8S4. Q.— \Yas she sold in IHHfi? .\.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you sell her then? A. — My interest, yes. sir. 10 461 (Ah'x. .Mfl^can — < 'roMH.) ly — 1>«» voii know iinytliiiiK about tin* mik* of the "Alfirtl AtltiniH? A. — 8lu' WHH Hold lien*. (i. — What do you kuow about it? A. — I dou't kuow the ti(;un»8. il. — And .voH Bay thait you did not know tin* Ajjuiti* for tin* •'lllafk Diamond," and the ''.Inanita'' and the "Triumph" sold for IS.OOO or |i!).0? A.-I Itelieve that in dow to the llfjurt'K. ii. — How do you know about that' A. — Don Mt'Lean told IIM'. Q. — That iH your brother? A. — Y<'h. sir. The Commissioner on the |)art of tlu» I'niled Wliat was tlie tonnnj;e «tf the "Triumph"? 8tat"H:— 20 30 40 Witness: — t'lose to MM!, she might be a few tons less. The < 'ommissioner on the juirt of the I'nited Htates: — NViien was she sold? A. — 1 think it was in 18SU, sir. Q.— You say that the "l.illie L. ' was sold in 18H7, liow d(» von knt)w that? A. — I saw the owner from San Fraueim-o iit tile time. il. — Was she an Ameriean vi-ssel? A. — Yes. Q. — Where was she sold? A. — Hold in San Franeiseo. 12. — .\nd y«>u only kuow from what you were told? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— He told you that? A.— Yes, sir, il — After the sale? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You know nothin}:^ about it of your own knowledge? A.— That is about all. H. — And this sale took place in San Francisco? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know anything ntiout the "Penelope?"' A. — Yes, I have bwu aboard the ship. li. — Do von know anvthing about her sjile? A. — No, sir. (i.— Nor" the "Theresa?" A.— No, sir. (i. — There is a vessel (-ailed the "Active," what do you know about her? A. — She was sold here the Inst 1 knew. ii. — WIh'H was she ^old? A. — W«'ll, I think it was some- where in 'H5 or 'S(!. (i.— How much for did you scfort> ,voii Kot to HehriiiK Hi-u, or would .v<»u call at any? A.— Hand I'oint, Chuniii-kt'ii iHlaiidH, AhiHka. y. — WfiM' tln'w ditrcivnt pfople who had (radliiK plact-s there? A. — Yen, nlr. Q. — Would you call at any others? A.— At AIIIhc Huy, AluHka. Q. — Any other? A. — No, wlr. Q. — Ih there when' you took on your fndiauH? A. — \o, sir. y.— You took them on where? A. — On tln' west eouHt of Vancouver iMland. Q. — In the trip of the "HonnnKa" did you call at any of thoHO placet*, and whlcli of tlieni? A. — No, sir. Q.— Did you call at any place? A.— Yen. h\v. Q.— >Vliere? A.— Yokohama and Hakodate. Q. — \Vould you require to jjet rid of any of your proviHiouH ut either of tliowe pluctH? \. — Yes, sir. Q. — ^Vhat kind of provisiouH? A. — Canned meats. Q. — \Vhat, sell (hem then-? A.— Xo. sir; transfer from our vessel to another vessel; I couldn't exactly state the umount. Q. — Did you ke<'p an account of all this? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — And that is at Han Franrlsro? A. — Y<'s, sir. Q. — Is that an account with the same man y«»u 8p«»ke of before? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — IHd you take in any more stuff at those places? A.— No, sir. I may have taken some fresh meats probably, and vegetables for the cww. Mr. Dickinson: — Do the trading stations you sp«'ak of refer to Vancouver Island? Mr. Peters: — No. tniding posts on the way up to Itehrint; Sea. Ho mentioned two. 40 Mr. Dickinson to witness: — You did not refer to trading; stations ou this island? A. — No, sir. '«ji you be«'n master of vessels thus engaged," that is in sealing, and your answer was, "I have been nine years in the sealing business?" A.— Y« '*, sir. Q. — "What time of the year do you generally start out sealing in the Paciti*'?" .\. — "We varied always from tlie 11th of January to the lltli of February. "When do yon call the H(>ason's catch over?" A. — ".\bout the lltli of Sep tember, alMtut a month later. I usually get back about tlic llth of Hepteml»er." Is that (he statement you nmde? A. — I couldn't «>xactly say I madi> that statement; I may have. If I nuide that, sir, i( is coriiM-t. Q. — Februarv I, 1S!)2. was when vou made that statenionT? A.— Y«>s. sir. (J. — .\nd (hat was correc(. was i(? .\. — Yes, sir, I s.ip pose that was correct. The Tommissioner on the part of the United Htates:— T>o«'s (hat last s(atement (end (o contradict (he witness in any wav? 10 20 30 4^3 lAli'X. Mrl^'flii — i 'roHH — K<>-«1if«>ct.) Mr. IS'tt'i-H: — I think il d«M«H. to mIiow Ih' tried to iniiltc tin- wHHon i-loH<' out tli«' 20tli «>f AuifiiHt, wliilo tlu'rc lie hii.vh (lit* 11th of H»'pt«'inh««r. The ('oiiiiiiiHHioncr on tlic ptirt of the I'nitcd Htat«>H: — II«> wi.vH h(> |;ot biuk tlic lltli of H<>]»t(MiilH'r. It nia.v In> under- Htood to Im* Btflted twtth wayn, but he flnnlly snid he got buck the llth of Hepteniber. (i. — I want to call your attention to another nfOdavit you made in Volunii- 7 of tlie Anierlran Ite|trint, page ^45, an fol- Iowh: "WaH ou" of tlie nioHt HUceeHMful en(;af;ed in the buRi- iu'Br; have been ui Itehrint; Hea every HeaHon Hln«'i' \HH'2; the liiintinK Heanon be^iuH in KehriuR 8ea the fore part of July iind ends the hiMt of Aufrunt." Ih that rorreet? A. — Yes, Kir. Mr. I'eterH rontinueH reading fron: aflidavit: "I entered Ueh- liiiK Sea tliree yearn in HueeeHHiou on July 4th, and UHually ranie out August 2ri(h, at which time (he ttcason practically lioHes." Ih that correct? A. — Yea, Hir. Mr. IN'terH: — ThiB aftldavit wan made on the 7th of Octo- ber. 1M1>2. To witneHH: — I wish to call your attention to another atate- iiu'ut, as followH: "The venael furnighea the anppliea, but it coHtH only about alinK veHw>la are lifted out in February for an eifjht niontliH* voyage." Q. — la that right? .\. — Yea, air. (2. — What year does that refer to? A. — That would re- fer to 1888. Q. — When did you change the time of fitting out? A. — Well. lM>tw«»en 18S7 and 1888, I auppoae. beeauae formerly the Indiana UHcd to fe«>d theniaelrea, and after that we began fiHHling the Indiana. Q.— The length of the cruiae? A.— Well, firat when I wi'ut out we UHcd to atart from here in March, the 12th of March. I think; the aeanon waa ahorter then. Q. — Then you commence*! in February? A. — Yea. air. Q.— That wart in 1888? A.— Yea, air. And Inter on I have been going out in January. Kedirect examination by Mr. Oickinaon: Q. — Now, Mr. McU'an, you were aaked if you had b«H'n in ItriHon? A. — Yea, air. ;o ti.^.\nd you aaid that you were arreated, I think, in Nova Scotia? .\. — Yea, air. (i. — Will you please tell now what it waa for? A. — For licing into a row; a atreet row. Q. — Some one inaultiMl you and you whipped him, I hope. Tliat waa about what it w.»»? A. — n«>ing inaulted, of couree I liitd to protect myself. il — How long were you detainee. Q. — Were you put in jail at all? A. — Well, I waa put In C,n jail for tliree houra in San Franciaco H. — Hut thia time in Nova Scotia? A. — Yea, air, T was taken bv an otVaer. Q. — Were y«»u c<»nvicted of aaaanit and battery? A. — Yea, sir. ^■i' — .Vnd sentenced to aix houra' inipri8onm<>nt? A. — Yea, sir. Q.— Waa that the aubatance t.; it in Nova Scotia? A.-— Yes, air. 40 '' tfi ^ ' fllf:; ■■ I r ■P ) f • ; i 1 1 i i i ' ipmrr-np- ^ijlMni. lO 20 3«^ 40 50 60 464 (Ali'X. M«[<<'iiii — rroHH — Ki>'oii Huid, yuu wuru dt'diiucU bc'cauae .yuu wun* uwuy fruiu ^uiir uliip witliuiit Iciivo? A. — Tliut WiiH tlie Huiiii' tiiiu>. Tli(>y hciU fur tlii> t-hiof ofllf«*r of tilt' Hlii|t. I left tilt' ship iiud v'vnt iiHliorc without lilM>rt,v, and then* wert> two wutelu'M, port and iitarlMiai'd wati'lifH, and till' watch went :tHhort> that <-/i>nini; |liat 1 didn't belong; to. I wanted to gvt aHliore that «>v('nlng for Home piirpoHc, and when I was k<>K alMtard the Hhiji again about 11 o'el(i«-l< in the evening i hap]M-ned to get into a row with a nnin and 1 waH loelied up. Q. — What wan done about your leaving the ship without leave? .\. — The oftteer he ap|M'ared and made a report tlint I left the Hhip without lilH>rty. Q. — And yuu weiv not detained or puuiHhed for that? .\. — No, Hir. (i. — Were you ever imprisoned for any other olTenee in No- va Heotia? A.— No, sir. Q. — And your whole Hentence was six liourH? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — You t«»ld 3'onr story in court at the time, didn't you? A.— Yen. nir. I told the truth. Q. — Referring to the trouble at San Franciwo. the newH- )Mi)N'rH say you have been in jail and imin-iHoned tlirtv or four times. Now we will see whether a witness is to be abused like this. Tell ns about the Han Francisco trouble? A. — Got into a stre.'t fight in Han Francim'o. Q.— A sailors' fight? A.— Yes. sir. v/. — What iM'came of that? A. — We were arrested and detained for three Iiourg. Q. — Were vou sentenced to jail? A. — I was talien to jail by an officer. Q. — Refore or after th(» trial? A. — n«'fore the trial. Q. — .\nd were yon acquitted at the triai? A. — Acquitted. Q. — And you were in jail, then, pending the trial? A. — Pending the trial, but 1 was released on l)ail. Q. — And then you were promptly discharged and held not guilty? A.— Not guilty. Q. — Now, are thes<» tlie only times you hnv«> been imi»riH oned? A. — That is tlie only time 1 Icnow of. Of course I was detained some ytnirs ag(» in Itussia, but 1 was not im- prisoned. Q. — Tluit was for s<>aling in Uussian waters? A. — Yes, sir. Iiad Imm'U s«'ized tliere. Q. — But you wen* not put in jaiiV A. — No, sir. Q. — And was released? A — And released. Of course 1 was detained; I couldn't leave 'lie country for a certain tinw. Q. — But you never had a triai? A. — Never had a trial. Q. — And were never convict«'d» A. — Never convict<-d. (i. — And your vessel was 8«'i7.ec' at the same time? A. - Yes, sir. Q. — Did you get away finally with your vessel? A. — No, sir. Q. — TIk'v icept the vessel? A. — Kept the vc'ssel. sir. Q._Forfeited it? A.— Forfeited it. Q. — Was there any clinrge against you except for seaiiii,; in Russian waters? A. — No. sir. Q. — Now is there any other jiiace in your life where you were put in prison? A. — No, sir. Q._Or charged with any offences? A.— No, sir: no other place. Q. — Were you ever complained of for any offence agnins* the laws of any country except those you liave stated? A. — No, sir. Q. — Now, Tapfain, just befon* the direct exniniiintion closed, you spoke ut nut visiting any trading posts 465 (Ah'X. Mi-I.«>)iii— l(«Mlii-tM't.) wiiy ii|*. I>iHtd ill Alauiva, Hir. Q. — Now, ,voii (lid <-ali nt ti-adiiiK poHtH on tlii> iMland up lu'rt', did you iitt? A. — Yew. HJr. t^. — You liad HoiiH' jourwlf. did yon not? A. — Yi'h, sir; liiid (lint' tnidiii^; H(or«-H <»n lli«' roaMt of N'ancouvfr iHlaiid. Q. — Was (liat wlu'n .vou yvvrv in tlu' "llonanza?" A. — No, Hir; wlifn I wan on flic Favouritf." Q. — Now tliiM bt>ok which liaii liven ref(>rri>d to in the diriM-t rxaiiiinaliitn. I do not |)ro|M>Ni> to hav<> it ^o into tin* niiii- iilt'H, hilt .von hav«' it incii'l.v um tin- bool< rcfi'rn'd to in tin* liiift-t «>.\ainiiia(ion, and to wliit-li I now <-all attention. I will have it marked h.v the Seeretarv for indent itieation with (lie Seeretarv'H initialH, and the wordn "For indentifleation. No. 2," entitled "Wealinjr AecountH and general infonnation liy ('apt. Alexander McLean." Now, C'aplain, did yon make 20 tiny part of tliiM hook for the ]MiiiioHe of d«>«M>ivinj; anybody, or hIiowIii)! it to anybody? A. — No, nlr, I made it exprcHHly for my own nH»». Q. — I notice yon have variouH ret'ijM's for coii};Iih and bun- lorn* and one tliinj; and anotlier here? A. — Yes, Hir. I thought it iiiiKht be convenient aboard Hliip. H — You did not make hiicIi memoranda for the pnrpoHe of deceiving; anybody iih to what kind of mixture to take, or to put on their toes, did you? A. — No, sir. Q. — It was your private book? A. — It was my private book. (J. — You were asked if you did not make an erasure of the word "Master" in this book, and you said you did very pi-nniptly. Yon wen* not master of the "Favourite" on that vovaire. were vou — the "Mary Ellen"? A. — No, sir, not on the "Mary Ellen.' ' (i. — And the word "Master" as It appeared there would nut Ik' the truth, would it? A. — No, sir, it wouldn't be the Inith. (J. — And you also put the word "Ilonanza" on the pape be- low within three or four we«'k8. I tliink — "A. McLean, master scliooniT 'Honanza"?' A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wliat is on the jiajje abov«' it? A. — (Examining) "Scalinc in the racific Ocean." (i.— \Ylint is that the catch of? A.— The catch of the scliiioner "Honnnza." (i. — Of the schooner "Hcmnnza." It is not tlie catch of any otlicr vcswl? A. — No, sir. (2. — .\nd that is a corivct transcript of the catch Ik it, Tap- liiin, for your private infonnation? .A. — Yes, sir. (i. — .\iid wImii you pit a letter, I tliink, fi"oiii Mr. Hodwell, tliiK yon iniulit be wanted here, you went ovi'r tlM'se books? A. — I looked over the books and thoiifjlit I had better correct tlicni. (i. — To nive pnijier inf(»rniation? A. — Yes, sir. (]. — And then vou let them have the books, did vou not? A.— Yes. sir. (■i. — .\nd y»Hi add«>d that you wew master of the schooner "Monanza" that made that catch to indicate to anyone that wanted to know that that was the schooner "Bonanza'^" ciitcli? A. — Yes. sir. nt tlie time this column here was not added up and I made the additions in lead pencil. (i. — So that it would give some infoiinntion to anyone that wiiiited to see it? \. — Yes, sir. xaiiiin(>d as to that, or <'X:iiiiliicd as to it, and tin- various items caUed ((» your atten- ,|0 5^ fx ir M fll^ •'! h'i h y V'4 i'liv.r I I f '! ill! ■ I i I' Iif''t- imW lO 466 (Ah'X. MiLt'iia— U»Mlin fl.) lion. Did .v«Mi liiivc ill tiiiil liHt iiii.v ham iiid Imu-oii? A. — V«'H, Nil-, t licit' in HOiiK- liaiii iiiiil iMiniii iiii tlicro. (^ — Ami WJM'tl VUll fOIIH' IH-rOMH |)il«>f bl-flDl put .VOIII- I|||(>|M' IIII tliat? A. — (Kxaiiiiiiiii);-) Hixl ^ niHi-M of pilot bri'tul. (^— Kitclit liox«-M, Ih tliat? A.— KiKlit hoxt h, that would be a box tu I'Hi-li vt'HM'l. g.— That Ih all .voii had? ham or baron on hen*, Hir. g. — Now. on lliat fHlimat*' of '2H nii-n and H boatM foi' a :ilj|MMii 30 4^ 50 Co A. — Yf8. Hir. 1 don't kim' any !l till- total for thi' pi'oriHions of A. — That would be provlHiouN. montliH vo,va)i:«>. did you foot (III- out lit? A.— Y«'h". nil-. g. — H«»\v inurli wan il? |1LM'!M.!C». g. — Thai in Kroi-t'i-icM niid proviHiouH for Hit* wlioh* oiittil? .\. — Y«'K, Hir. for tin* wlioh> oulHl. g. — Voii have Htatt'd in llif aflldavil which huH bci-ii hIiowii you that for llic lhr y«>arH your linM> for h'aviiiK Itchrin^; Sra waH about AiikuhI i'dli? A. — Yi-h, hIi-. g. — For the Manic Ihrit' yearn you have tcHlillcd licrc that you did not lower I he boats after the llllh? .\. — Did not hunt any after the UHIi. g. — .\nd I think you leHlitied in direet examinalioii llial yon did not hunt «iiy but left the Hea, aeeordiiiK to your lou. iiboiit the 2i)th? A. — Ych, Hir, within a f«'W dayn of my hint lowci'inK' Ij. — Ho you are tixinK the same (^enenil ilate for leaving the Sea on the I'.'ith for three yetirci in that nftidavit of IHil'J. ; H you tcHlilh'd here? A. — Yes, sir. i}. — .Vnd the eoineiiU'iiee of dal<>H in very Himilar. Now, when you wcri' out on I In- "Favmirile" did I lie mate liav*' the information an to the ealeh in 188li? A. — No, Hir; he mi^ht lia\e had the dalcH and iiiiniber. the niimbev of Heain that wan eau)!ht. I am not nure of that. I don't know an he kept a reeord of it. g. — Do you Hnd on ytnir examination of the lo|;, and the luemordiim you had ur to the plaeen of catch, any material ditfereiice iH'tween the latitude and tlu> longitude Het down in your meinoniiidum here in the b«H)k that huH been idciili lied and marked "For Identitication, Nir "2"? A. — Hetween it and the Iojth? (J. — Yen, Mir? .\. — In what respect? (i. — In the latitude and longitude? A. — There may Im' a ditference. g. — How did it come about? .\. — The poHilionM are put down for 12 o'clock noon, and the book I UHed put the ihihI- lioiiH down for the exact pla<-e the HcalH would be caught in. Q. — You k( pt lliiM book f«U" your private information, and put down tlie sealiuf; trroiind aH the latitude and longitude? .\. — Yes, Mir, for my private iiiforination. Q. — -Viid that you trauRferred to tliiM book from that memorand.'i? .\. — Ycm, nir. and tlu-n dcMlroyed them, be- caiiMe I didn't winh to have too ninny of those little bookH. Q. — .\iid you kept that memoranduin as to the 8«'iil catch? .\. — Yi'r, sir. Q. — The latitude and longitude of the seal catch? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Is that the explanniion of the difference between your latitude and longitude as shown by your log, taken at noon and the place you caught seals on that day? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In 18S(> had Indians come to be employed in the same way as white men? A. — Uj) to 18S7. they wewn't, no sir. Q. — How were tliev employed, and what were they given** A. — They used to give them a certain rate jkt skin. Q. — And they find (hcmselvcs? \. — Find themselves. Q. — T suppose they lived on seal meat those days? A. — A good deal of seal meat, and dried flsh and bisctiita. Ml 467 (AIpx. Mi'liCmi— K«'«llri'r<— HcrniHU.) g.— Aud W118 tlii>r«* aii^iliiiiK in llium> diiyii ut m-uliiii; ut (IiIh kind? WiM-t* ludiiiiiii llHiiiUK for m-alH iiidf|H'udfiill>-? A.— Y«'8, uir. Q. — And tli«*,v t-iiiiKlK mciiIm did thvy not? A.— Voh, Hir. Q. — Did you Iriidc witli llifni in iIiohc dii^H, A. — Yt-M, Hir, um*d to \»iy M«'tilH from llicni. (j. — And .vou nirrifd hIuIT to Iradt' witli tlic IndianH for HkinH? A. — YcH, Hir. Q.— To K<'1 llM'ir tiilclHH? A.— YiH, Hir. (j. — How many HliipH did tiit* raritir Trading Compnn.v liavc unt? A. — I lM-li<'v«> llu'y liad Honn-tliinK liktt I'iftlit HitipH, prolMiltly mi^lit liavc nion* at varioiiH limoH. I iH'lifv*' tin' nioHt at oni> tinio would Im- «-iKlit, Hfv<-n or <;lit. (2- — I tliink Homo <-onipariHon waH mad<> iN'twrcn you and Captain Warron aH lH>inK (Ix* uldcHt KvaierH. I tliink ynii went into tlio Itt'liriuK H<>u witli aliout tlif tlrnt waling ti!p (lid you not? .\. — In the "Hr' IHcko." Tlicrc had (km'U otlit-r vt'HHolH in IIhto lH'for«>, liut lliry didn't ti** i» <>** r of M'al liiintiiif;, otter huntini;, a uinnX many of lliem. Q. — WtiH lli<> "Ilonanxa" UH<>d at all aH a NU]tply boat to tlii! otiD-r boatH? A. — Wfll. hIio wuh intended if any of tlie (.then veHHelB ran Hhort of proviHionn to Hupply tliem. Q. — How docH Hlie correH|Mtnd in tonnaRe with the otliern? A. — Y<'ry near double the tonnap'. Q. — She was how large? .\.— .\tM)ut H14 tonn net roRlHler. <'onimiKHlre and let me know how mueh it nunputeH on one month for oaeh man. Mr. Dirkinsoii: — Tluit wuh for nine montliH, of course, the * 'omnilHBionerH understand. 20 40 5^ 60 The CommiHHioner on the part of Her Majesty : — I flgure it I'S men nine montliH would nuike 2.VJ nutnths for ime man, iind |2,:204, the total liill. TIml Ih less than flO per num. Mr. Diekinson: — One thin}; 1 did omit in answeriuK to my friend. .Mr. I'eters, as t(» tlie basis on which Hie estimate is iiiatle, you said it w.-is made on tlie basis of 1S!)4. That in estiiiiateil supplies? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .\nd at priees at 8an Franeiseo? A. — Y'es, sir. Q. — Will you please state whether you did not have t(» do with du' tittiuR out of the "Favourite" at Vietoria? A.— ^'es, sir, 1 hud. (i.— .\nd any other ships in ISSfi*' A.— Yes, I made out lists of stores Q.— Now, did you understand, when Mr. Peters was ex- .•miininj; you that he was referring t«) 1S!»4 when you tlxed f cHlculiilionH lit till' tiiiit', 1111(1 I founil (liiit tlit'.v ih'Vit used to iivt>niK«' nion- than iilHiiit fU) 11 inontli for iiu>. Q. — Hut whiTt' hiivi' .vou gut tlumc i-iilnilatioiiB? A.— I ll^iiri'ii (iM-ni lip wIh'ii I would Ih' imi tlio vovii|{<>. H. — Ha VI' you an.v In «'xlHt(>nr<' now? A.— No, sIp, I iim>«I to flKiiri' tluMii ii|i on n hook, juHt ofT-hanil. Q. — Your thln^H at ci-rtnin |iri<-cM tlwri' in that liook whirh ri'fiT to 1804 in San Pranrlm-o, I want to iiHk you ahout. How ilo the artii'h'H you havi* there — the prleeM — niiiiiiaie with the prleen for the unine artieleH at Vietoria in iSWt? Do you know the differi'nee? A. — Well, at preHcnt tlie price Ih lower. (i. — Take one Item for inHtanee, you have 2,0(M» ]>oiiiidH of Hupir then-, at 3J centH, I think? A. — Yen, nir. (i.— Xow, what would that lont in YietoHa in ISSO, if vou know, iM'r imund? A. — I'rohahly from 4 to H centn for Biicar, I eouldn't exactly Mtate heeanHO I d(in't reaieinber the price of articles at that time. Q.— ! refer to Yoiicher No. 3fi. in which for tlie "Carohna" HU^ar in charged at 8 <-entR per pound in 1S80; are you pre pan'd to Bay that Ih not corn'ct? A. — That dependH a Rood deal on the grade of *he BUgnr. Q. — I want to know are you prepared to any that it would not coBt, and did not cost, that aiiKuint in 1S8(>. at Yictoria? A. — YeB. Bir. I auppoH*' it would. Q.— And flour you have charged there at ♦.J.Ofl? A.— 1.1.5(», I giiesH. Q. — A sack? Yes, sir, I am not sure, Mr. Itk-kinHon: — Now let us And out whether you are ex- amining about 18 a barrel. Q. — Now as to that item, have you any idea of what flour would have cost you in 188ti at Yictoria? A.— At that time T believe it was about ^1.2^, between fl.OO and 11.25 a sack. The CoiumiBHioner on the part of the Tnited Stattw: — We all know, Mr. Peters, that flour and sugar were much liigiier in 1880 than in 1894. Take some item we do not know about. Q. — You had corned luiat in both these cases? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — How did the price of corned bwf in 1894 compare witli 188(i? A. — I think they would be very near e(|ual. Q. — Hut without knowing what the difference was, are you in a iHisition to make a calculation as between the two years? A. — Well. I don't know exai^tiy. I believe the meat was about the same pri«-e as in 188t», tliat would be about flO a barrel. Kxamination closed. Aiviii H. .Mexander was caled as a witness on the part of <5o the I'nited States and duly swoni. Direct examination by Mr. Lansing. Q. — Mr. Alexander, wluit is your occupation? A. — Pn-y ent occiiimtiou, euiployee in the Cnited States Fish *'vvil mission Q. — What was the dale of your employment? .\.--|ii Aiiril, 1880, the exact date I don't remember now. •i^xj lO 3f> (A. M. .MfXnmK'i— iHUHl.) Q. — Wlii'ru wiiH yuur rt'Hiduiice tit tliul linn-? A. — llloit ri'Htcr, MiiHwifliiim'tlH. Q. — lluw lotiK liad .vou roHidod ut (Slouctiiter? A. — I h.'.«l n'MidtHl ut Uluiu-VHtvr from 1MU4 lu uliuiit l)S7:t ur 1S74, iiiui the followiiiK tlirt'e yvan from lH7:t I think in L^nn, an i tlu'n HKiiiu in Ulouecster up tu 18H8. yt-urH friiiii 1804 up tu 1873? A.— Wt>ll, in 18K4 I whh a hiIiooI bov and ii«» occupation exceptiuK durinK vacutiouM, aH in cUHtoniary f«)r all Itu^VH in that r(>Kion tu Hhip aboard a vt'iM*i>l him! ;o I'lirn a little pocket money which I did occuHionally for Honie ,vearH. ii. — t)u what kind of a veHwel? A. — American tlHhinK ve»- Hel. Q. — And after you left dcIiooI what became your occiipn- lion? A. — 1 waH enguKed in vnriuiiH occupulionH, at times enpiged in working for my father. HometinieM I would t)e enK>i(;ed in the fiHherieM, at other tinieH in the Hnilmakin}! buHUesit. y. — What was your father's buHincHH? A. — A ship car- penter and builder. (). — Did you become f-iiuliar with the couHtnietion of tiHhinK veHHelM ut (iloucetttet '.' A. — Well, quite familiar, hav- n\i Keen them in the proeeHs of couHtruction for a f^rvni num- ber of years. (i. — And their cost? A. — I liad an apji'uximnte idea uh to the cost of the most / them during those times. (2. — And us to the rigK^KK" A.— Ves, sir. y.— The outfit in peneral? A.— General outfit. Q.— After being emplovid by the Fish CommiHsion, what were your duties? A. — Aly duties were in the capacity of a Hhip's clerk, or the private secretary of the captain, and also had charge of the scientific collection wliich we collected for the United Htate Fish Commission. Q.— Where did you do this work? A. — All tli»- way up and down the Atlantic coast, from the coast of Labrador to (Jape liatteras. il — How long did you work on the Atlantic coast? A. — \o On this particular vessel you speak of? y. — Yes. A. — I was emploved on the schoon<'r "flram- pus" in April, 1886, and left her in the month of May, 188K. (/. — Where did you go then? A. — I receiv«'d onlers from Washington to join the "Albatross" at San Francisco. (i.~And since 1888? A. —Since 1888 I have Ihmmi going to Alaska every year, except this year, in the summer months. In the winter time we have bi-en at work occas- ionally on the coast of Mexico, and the islands of tlu' I'a- <-itic, and sometimes on sliore. 5" iy — On coming olT the coast in 1888 did you make any ex- iiiniiiation — any notes — in reganl to the constructi(m of fish- ing vessels on the Pacific Ocean? A. — Well, I noticed the (lilTerence in the rigging generall.v, and the construction of vessels on this coast as compared with thoB<' of the Atlantic roast, and I took mental notes, and I took some notes down at the time for general comparison. rtnining thereto. Q.— Cost and material? A. — Material with which they were built. r.o •I'l^ :• ' 'I ! i'l Mint ":i! i ''^m^A 2D 30 40 50 (A. n. A li'Xiiiuli'i— Direct.) Q. — Ami iiiclhod of eoiiHtrnction? A. — Tlielr lines in geu- enil. Ci. — And Htiitis(i«-H I pr(>Hiiine in refjard to tl>e employment of Kutli viMHels? A. — To n certain extent, yon, sir. ii. — And since that time you have examined st.alin<; veKsel have you? A. — I have be<-n on board quite a numl)er of veHHelH and I have examined them at sea as well as they can be examined at sea, and I have been on board of them at this port and also at Seattle for the purpose of looking them over. Q. — Have you ever cruised on any sealing vessels? A. — On two. tj. — What ones, and what y«'ars? A. — In lSfl4 I made a cruise on the scliooner "Louis Olsen" of Astoria, and in ISll.T I nuide a «'ruise in Hehring Sea on the schooner "Dora Hie- wai-d" of this jM»rt. il. — Now, in the summer of 1888 you stated you went into Itehring Seji? A. — We went to Ounalaska, whi<-h of ooui-se is in the Itehring Hea, but didn't cruise in the Sea that year. ii. — While at Ounalaska did you see any sealing schooners? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On the beach? A. — At Ounalaska, yes, sir, I saw sev- eral. Q. — Did you 8«'e the "Carolena"? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you go on board of her? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Did you examine her carefully? A. — 1 examined her quite can'fully. ii. — Whiit was slu? constructed of? A. — She was con- structed of wood, of soft wood, I am quite positive. Where she was built I don't know, but I am quite sure she was von- structed of soft wo(m1 of some kind. The exact siK'cies of wood I wouldn't say. (i. — Mow was she fastened? .\. — So far as I could see above th«' water line, and ttn tlie deck, she was fastened with iron, common iron, I think what W4> call blo4-k iron, not gal- vanized. ii. — Was the rigging standing? A. — The rigging was standing at that time. Q. — Dif course would be submerged in water. Q. — What could you say as to her lines, were they old or modem? A. — They were whut we would natumlly CSill primitive lines as c(>mpan>d with the mod«>rn build. s on the Pacific Coast to Hx a value ujion the "Carolena" ready for sea? .\. — Do y«Hi mean the exact value, or an api>roximate valu*'? Mr. ]tei(]u«>: — I do not believe that the witness sh the witness will speak as to the value from his examination in 1888, win n tiie vi«ss«'l had beeen lying on the beach for two years. Mr. Lansing: — If the rommissinners |»lea8<>, my learm 1 friends have put a great deal of evidence as to tile value of vessels in Nova Scotia in 1888 and in 18!M», to establish the value of the "Caroh'ua" in 188(;, tind it s ems to me that it is lO 20 (A. H. Ah'xandi'r— IHmt.t iHM'fi'ct 1^' ruiiiiH'tfnl for the witiu'HH iu thiu iiiHtaiit-c to pve llu' viiliH' of tlu' "('Mroh'iia" in IHHH rciuly for wn, if hIic Iiiih Imh'ii r{'i»nii'i>d jiimI iiiiidt' ready for sea. Mr. lU*iqn«': — Of <-ourM' tin* evidt'iirc tliat we Jiave jml in waH i\» to the roHt of vchsoIh ready for Healing, Itut my oltjei-- tion r«>Hts on lliiH: tliat tliiH vcHHt'l waH abandoned in ISSti, lyin^ on the bi'aeli, and renniinin^ tliert* for two yearH, am! llie witneHH «>xaniined lier for the tirst time in ISSS. wlieii evidently she liad very mneh deterioi-ated; and it K«><>inH to me tluit the value of the v«>«s«'l at that tinu'. under thowe eon- ditiouH, would be no criterion at all an to the value of the vt'HKel at the time she was seized. The CommiHsioner on the part of the I'nited Htaten: — Mr. LauHinp, hIiouKI you not nuike your question a little more guarded, so as to avoid th«> possiltility of that presumption? Mr. Lunsint;: -I will withdraw that <|uestion, and ask the witness another. To Witness: — Mr. .\lexander what would y«»n consider the value of the "(.'arolena" ready for sea in 1SW5? Mr. IViijue: — There is no basis of knowled^<.> shown by the witness. The witness has stated already that he saw her lor the tirst time in i888. Mr. Dickinson: — \\v submit that the witness has shown himself comiM'tent from his expt*rieuce and investipitions, from his view of the vessel, cousiderinR the time that had elapsed, and the wear and tear of the ve»s«'l, to testify what Mlie would have been worth in his opinion in 18Sti equipped and in ;i:ood condition. The CommisMioner on the part of the United Staites: — Would you not Ik* willing to ask her value at some particular place and at 80]ne i»articular time, put in i;ood condition, or fair condition, because the objection nuide t(» that question liy Mr. Iiei(]ue was, as I understand, that it was possible the JO witness mijrht undertake to state the valne in the condition in whi«-h he found her? The Cumniissioner ou the part of ller Maj.-hty: — It seems there are a number of things that would b«' involved, Mr. Lansing. First, the examination of the vessel to see if she was repairable, and then, if it was found that the witness was ( (tinpetent to 8i)enk on the imitter, and if.it was found she was repairable, having in view the necessary repairs to fit lu'r for sen. 30 ;o Mr. Lansing: — If y(>ur Honours please, I did not intend the vessel as she stood then, but the veBsel as originally equipped. The ( 'oinniissioner on the part of Iler Majesty: — Tliere is nothing in the notes to show in what condition she was; she iiiiglit have bi>en bilged, and a nnmlM>r of things might luive happened. We are in ignorance of all that. The ('oinniission«>r on the part of the Tnited Mtat«'8: — Your question misled my associate precisely af; it did Mr. Heitjue. I do net understand that you intend to ask this witness what that voBRoi was worth, but what a vessel like her, or a vesss*'! in f>iir order for sea, repaired, would be worth — a hypotheti- cal question. Sir r. II. Tnpper:— W'orth where? Mr. Lansing: — On the Pacific coast. *^ lO 20 472 (A. 15. Aliximdcr— IHit'cl.) Mr. Ii('iqii«>: — I would call tlu' ('oinniiKMioiu'rH a(t(Mitid{;(' as to tlu' value of vessels in Massaehusetts hut so far as I am awar«« none whatev»»r as to the vahn* of vessels here, lie stated that he has been taking notes, from examinin<; vessels that would not show any knowledge of the eost of vessels in Victoria in 1886, or even in San Francisco. None of his evidence (]ualisumed/ their seats. Direct examination of Mr. Al(>xander resumed by Mr. Lan- sing. Q. — Taking into consideration the size of the vessel, its 3° lines, and material, and its construction what would you say a vessel similar to the "Carolena"' 2r» years old fully equipped and reaidy for sea would have been worth on the market on the Pacin<; Coast in lS8fi and 1888? A.— Hetween |1,8(I0 and f2,(HM), not exceeding $2,(MH). Q. — You said von joined the schooner "Louis Olsen" in July 1894? A.— 2!)tli of July I think in 18!»4, 27th or 2!»th. Q. — Where did you join her? A. — At Ounalaska. Q. — Of what did her crew consist? A. — White men. Q. — How many? A. — I think tliere were 25 men all told. Q. — And how many hunting boats? A. — Six, I think it was. Q. — Did she have a stern boat? A. — She had no stern boat. Q. — And when did you begin sealing? A. — The first day of August. We didn't begin sealing tli«> first of Angnst, w(> could luive sealed, but 1 tliink the weather was unfavoralile or something of that n:itui-(>. Q. — And at this time the ]>resent regulations as to sealing were in force? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you could not seal befor«> the first of August? A. — \o, sir. Q. — Can yon giv«' the number of days in August that yoii s<'aled, or tliat you were unable to seal? A. — I could by re ferring to some data which I have. Do yon wish to know the exact numlter of days, or just tli«' total? Mr. Iteiqu<>: — I do not know that this could apply to 188fi or 18S7, the conditions were not alike at all. The hunters were not p<>rniitted to use shot guns, and the circumstances were altogetln'r different. The (Commissioner on the part of the United States: — 1 suj)- j>ose this has referi'iu-e to the state of the weather, Mr. T-an- sing? Mr. Lansing: — Nothing but the state of the weather, and the conditions in 18U4 are just as (SM-tinent as the year IHS" to 1SS6. 50 60 473 (A. H. Ah'xandtM-— Direct.) Mr. Petei'M: — TIkto Ih a spet-iflc i-laini that we are entitled to the catch of 1887, 18U4 standH differeiitl.v. Witness: — (Referring to nH>nioranda.) — This was the month of August. Tlie whole number of days were three. Q. — Tlmt you lowered? A. — Whole number of days that we lowered were three; half days were three, and the periods of three hours for lowering one, and not hunting during that lo time 14 days. Q. — Was that entirely on account of the weather? A. — On account of the weather. Q. — You make this statement from your data? A. — Yes, bir. Q. — In 1895 were you sealing? A. — I was aboard of a ves- Hel that was engaged in sealing. Q.— What vessel was that? A.— The "Dora Rieward" of tliis port. Q. — And when did you join her? A. — 1 think it was on 20 tlie 29th of July. Q. — Where did yon join her? A. — At Ounalaskn, the same place as the former vessel. Q. — (?an you give the number of hunting days for the first 12.') hunting daj's in August when you were on the "Dora Sieward?" A. — The whole number of days, nine half days, four periods of two hours hunting, ea4? A.— In 189r). Q. — I asked you as to 1894? A. — Our seiils were taken to the w(>st and northwest of the Islands. Q. — The Pribyh»ff Islands you mean? A. — I mean the I'libyloff Islands. Q. — In 1895? A. — We began sealing I think somewhere south southeast of tlie Islands, and gradually cruised to the westwai"d. We occasionally changed our ground from west to (ast, and ( ast to west, but gradually worked to the west- ward. Q. — What was the jturiuise of your being on these vessels? •\. — My pur|iose was to gatlier all data possible of a pelagic nature in regard to seals. (i. — .'\nd from your exjM'rience what conditions would yon say modify tlie number of seals taken by v«>si«*ls? A. — The •sm- dition of the wejither would enter largely into it, and the skill of th«' hunters, the previous exin^rince of the captain 50 iind the executive ability, in regard to handling crews, par- liiiilarly those made u)> of Indians, and the chances of cnt<'li- ing seals and possibly remaining among them when found. I mean of (hiding seals, and of remaining among them when when found. Q. — What would you say as to other vessels being in the vicinity? A. — A large number (»f vesesis being in the vicin- ity would lessen the chances of each vessel taking seals. Q. — And what would yor pnn'ions to a clear sky modify thf catction for tlmi' or four days, and th«' seals are tin'd out. Thev will natur 40 U m I r KM' ■I i|i:^:'^' iiiiilitsi 'i-in ri hi ■*t ■■, it-i m (!*■{ fpfifir i 'iJiMi'^1 474 (A. H. AlcxiiiuhT— I»ii»Mt.> uWy hIoi'P iiiori' hoiiimH^' at tlu' t>ii(I of tlu* j^ale of wind thau othcrwiHt'. . Take it on tli<> otiicr hand wlit>n HcalH luiv«> bt'cn rinitinf; f<»i' a lon^ time — I niijjlit stati' it this way, tliat in ^i heavy gale of wind seal do not sleep vei'y Honndl.v, and poH- Blbl.v will not sleep at all unk'si* they have been tiretl out by previous exhaustion by a sei'ii>s of gales, something which has interrupted their slei'p, but in uses whei-e they 10 have been interrupted by wind and weather, they will sleep under conditions which they would not otherwise do. Q. — Tlmt is.a fact, Mr. Alexander, is it not, that not only the weather of the day on which a lowering is made affi'cts a catch, but also the weather that has previously been bad? A. — Yes, sir, Q. — And what would you consider unfavorable weather for sealing beside the mere fact of being unable to lower your boat on account of rough water? A. — Well, at times very 'oggy weather interferes with the lowering of the boat, ami 20 sometimes heavy rain will interfere, that is, it won't inter- fere with the lowering of the boat, Imt the chances are un- favorable for catching many seals when it is raining very hard. Q. — Why is that? A, — nert can answer upon inf<»rmation he has been gathering, that w(^ are to wade tlii*ough hundreds of logs? .Mr. Peters: — Tliat may be all v«'ry well, but w«' have here the fact made ap])arent. admitted by this witness, tiuit the weather In Ilehring Sea is variable. He has had experience of one or two years and from that ex|)erience lu' gives evl- 50 60 4/5 (A. I J. Ali'xiindoi— Dimt.) (Ii'iiee a8 to bow the woutluT niiRht have bot'u 1() years be- fore. Mr. LnnsiiiK: — I 1»ok pardon, there is no testinionv an to that. Mr. Peters:— Then he says more than that, that he has examined logs. Now in the case of the "Carolena" I sub- i^ mit that we have nothing to do with the weather in Behring Sea except for the years 1880 and 1887, and that we have the iM'st evidence here, the logs for those two years, Tlie Commissioner on tlie part of tlie United States: — But we have got to g«> througli many logs t«» get at it? Do you suppose the Commission is going to sit here and go througli all those logs? Mr, Peters: — The logs themselves, perhaps, would not be evidence, but is not the testimony of witnesses who were in 20 Hehring Sesi in 1887 the best evidence? The Commissioner on the part of Iler Majesty : — The offic- ial reports are presunuibly correct that a captain makes in his log in the {H'rformance of his duty to his owner and the pub- lic, and n iierson might from a large examination be in a posi- tion of an expert and be able to give an opinion. Now if this witness is shown to have examined a sullicient number of logs to put him in that position, I would not think there would be any objection to his giving the result of his 30 examination. The degree of weight that might be attach- ed to it may be another thing. I would not say or suggest at present whether the witness is shown to be in that position. Mr, Peters: — Up to the j)resent time, with all deference to my learned friend who put the question, he has not laid a foundation, he has not shown that this gentleman has that ex- perience, that lie has examined any numl)er of logs. The tpiestion is put to him in this way: "With your examina- tion of logs of sailing vessels and men of war what do you say about" so and so. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — No, tliat is not the question. Mr. Peters: — What I mean is, there has been no founda- tion to show that he has made an examination of the official ilocimients. The particular question is what did he say iihout zones of weather. It is perfectly clear if you go to liiy down a matter of that kind you could not lay it down without taking some steps as suggested by Justice King. The CommisFiioner on the part of the I'nited States: — If he had simply asked for information based upon the examina- tion of logs of a few vessels, I do not see how any Judge could jidiiiit it ; but it appears that he has been in that sea as an ex- pert on lM>half of the United States Government, and he states iiinong other things that he has investigated the logs of var- ious vessels. The question is put to him with reference to liis entire qualification; all that appears. Mr. Peters: — I submit that all that ajjpears to the pre- esnt time does not "show that this gentleman is in a position to give expert testimony upon that point. The fact that he went there ns an ex)iert is all right, but that does not make liim competent, TI*' has not shown that he is an expert, Mr. Lansing: — If my learned friend will permit me, I will iniiilify him. Till- CommisMiimer on the part of the T'nited States: — Is it wortli while to take tlu' time of this Tribunnl with n'ference 40 io Co -^tUy m\ > , ! I 3.1, n ^I'lillli'iti n ■MM ,'i\\ !;i! 'U\Hv'. 476 (A. H. AlfXiiiulci — hin'cl.) I0 tin aiiHwcr to tliiH i|iu'HMon, Mr. IVttTH? W<' litiv«> Httito iiiciitH fntni }:«>i<(l(>iii( n of that Hiiiniftcr Icnh <]iialit1«'d tlian lU'. Mr. Petprs: — The rvidcnce \\v have givj-n to tl»' prcHt'iit tjnu' is from aftiial cxpcricnc*', and that kind of cvidpnc*' of cours(> must b*' adiniHHiblc, but thiK maji mivs: "I can po hp.vond tlu'Hi' |H>o|)l(', I am goin); to fjivp 8om«' f*]H>cial cvi- 'O dence." Direct examination continued hv Mr. Lansing: Q. — Have yon examined a large ojimber of logs of Hailing vessels, and of cruisers in regard to the weather in Rehring ►Sea? A. — I have exumined quite a number of logs, in fact a great number of the sailing vessels' logs. Q. — Extending over what period? A. — I think from 1887 perhaps to 1894 inclusive, I think that is about the ground, ?o may be possibly a year or two earlier in some cast's. Q. — And om' of your chi«'f purposes was to establish some rule as to the weather in liehring Sea? A. — That was one of the chief purposes. 1 haven't examined them all alone, I have examined them in connection with other persons. Q. — Now I will repeat the ([uestion. What would you say as to zones of good weather, and zones of bad weather? A. — I think there are zones of good weather, and also zones of bad weather. Q. — What would you say as to any |)articiilar locality for 30 fair weather? A. — There is no known spots so far as I know where it is absolutely certain to find fa'r wesither, or absi- lutely certain to find foul weather, they vary according to the circumstances. Q. — Is there any locality where seals can always be found in abundance? A. — I know of non<'. Q. — In your exiM'rience of two years did you tind seals at the same place? A. — We found seals, but they were not al- ways of the same number, or equally abundant «me time as another, they vari»'d. Q. — And what would you say as to what locality in the Sea you took seals? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Are you not going to involve us, Mr. Lansing, in a pretty long in- vestigation? This is eight years now after the seizures un- der discussion. Mr. Lansing: — If your Honour pleases, the conditions and habits of seal life have not changed since 1886. 50 rpl^^, Commissioner cm the part of the I'nited States: — The other side may ask us to investigate that (piesticm, and it may take as long as in the Paris Tribunal. I ask the ques- tion whether you think it necessary to ojM'n that door. Mr. Lansing: — I wi«s simply going to ask him as to any par ticular beds or localities where s«'als can be found. The fommissioner on the part of the United States: — We have got witnesses here who were up there in 188(» and 1887. 6" Mr. Lansing: — I dt'sire to show Mr, .VIexander as a scien- tist what was his theory as to the abundance of seals at cei- tain times and certain jdacis, and theii- not being found there at other times. The Commissioner on the jmrt of the United Stat«'s: — I do not r«'gard Mr. Alexander as a scientist. 40 Witness: — Very true, I am not. 477 (A. U. Ahxaimh'i— IMiftI— CidSK.) Kxtiniiiiation contiMifd ]iv Mr. I/tinMiii}:: il. — Mr. Ali'xnndfr will .vuii Htatt' what rotiBon .voii would (iivc for tin* iil)iiii(1iiii<-t' of st-nlB at a rt'Hahi plarc and a cer- laiii tiint', and their not tM'inK found at another? A. — <>, largely to th«> niifiratory hihtIch of flHh which tlu'y HUbHiHt on. ii. — What \h their food? A. — Their fo«»d coiisiftM of c«»d, in a nieaHure, Nalnion, mpiid. niedUHae, and lloatinj? enutaeae. ii. — Yo!i W(»uid say pr.ietically tliev are surface feeders? A. — Tliev are practically surface feed'Ts? Q. — And tlu' Miiecies of fish migratory? A. — Migratory. 5Ir. Dickinson:— We submit to the tliat is a condition, n«>t a theory. SO (Commissioners that 40 Tlie Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Your remark seems to apjtly very well, but Mr. Lansing was after tlie th«'ory before. 20 Q. — What would you say as to the number of veswls in a (•(■rtain locality aiTectins the catch? A. — I should think that il larfje number of vessels in a hteallly where seals were fair- ly abundant would have a tendency to lessen the individual catch. Q. — Why? A. — Kecause seals are very timid, and the more boats there are on a f;"'»'n Rround covering a small or hufie ar<'a as the case may be, would have a tendency to fri'iliten them. It dcH-s frighten them, they arc harder to ap- proach, less easily obtained. Q. — Now from your knowledge of sealing in Itehring Sea, even if you possessed the data as to the number of hunters, their skill, the ex|K«riene of the captain, and the conditions of tlie weather, localitv of the vessel, and the proximity of other vessels, do you tliink there is any basis upon which the prob- able catch of a vessel for a given period of time could be pre- dhted? Mr. I'eters: — I submit that this is one of the questions this court will have to decide on the facts of the ease. The <\)mr.ii8si(mer (fn the part of Her Majes'y: — You could ask whether he could do it Mr. Lansing. Do you not think that that is as far as you could go? Mr. Lansing: — I will put the question in that way. Mr. I'eters: — Hefore \u' does that we will have to enquire into this man, and see what sort of a judicial mind he has got. lie may be a very good naturalist, (which he says he is not), may know sometliing about seals, and may be a scien- :;o tist; but in addition to that he has got to have power of judgment. Tlie ('(mimissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — We think the (piickest way is to put the (juestion, and reserve the ob- jection. tjuestion repeated. A. — I do not. y. — In connection with your duties on the Fish rimnnis- (')0 sion, have you studied the habits of migratory fish in Hehring Sea that you have s|K)ken of? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — How many years have you made a study of those? A. — I think it is ciglit years since I first went tlu re. Cross-examination by Mr. Heique: rr about 'JO, possibly may have Ihhmi 21. Q. — But vou were at sehool up to the time you were Ifi or 17?? A.— Yea, sir. Q. — When you were at school you were living at your fatli er's? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— All the time that you went to school? A.— Not all the tim<> that I went to school. Q. — The last three or four vears that you went to school? A.— Yes. Q. — And from Ifi or 17 did you leave school? A. — Yes. Q. — Did vou renuiin with vour father until you were 21? A.— About 21. Q. — What were you doing? A. — As I said b<>fore, {H'riodl- cally during the vacations I used to go in a Ashing vessel. Q. — I understand then that you were not at school? A. — During vacation. Q. — You sav that >ou left scliool at about the age of IC or 17? A.— 17, yes. Q. — And that you left your father's house at about 21? A. — Yes. Q. — I want to kn«)w what during that peri(Ml was ynur oc- cupation? A. — A part of the time I was engaged In the fishing business, and part of the time I was at work learning a trade. Q. — What trade? A. — Sail making trade. (). — \ot at your father's? A. — No. sir. Ci. — How long wer«' you learning that trade? A. — I was the usual time, three years. Q. — Between tlie age of Ifi and 17, and 21? A. — I believ*' that was about the age of starting, about the age of 18, I think, to learn my trad(>. Q. — And during that time you did not follow your father's business very closely did you? A. — Well I was somewhat conversant with it being around there all the time, I was not actively engaged with him at all. Q. — Did you ever follow the cost of building a vessel? A. — Do you mean In detail from the time she was commen<'ed un- til she was ready for sea? Q. — Yes, not to go into a minute account? A. — I have known the c.ost of other vessels after they were built, and the current value of them. Q. — Where, what vessels? A. — In Oloucester, Massa- chusetts. The "E. B. Marvin" here, the "Henry Dennis" and the "Oscar & Ilattie" which belonged in this town. Q. — What occasion had you for following the cost of these vessels? A. — Nothing more than I was interested in those things. Naturally as an Inquisitive man who has a natural tendency for those things, to find out If possible the value of those vessels. Q. — From whom did you enquire? A. — The builders and the owners, and the value which T saw she cost In the papers. Q. — What was the cost of any of these vessels, the cost of construction? A. — 1 will cite the "E. B. Marvin" which was formerly called the "Molly Adams" when she left Gloucester, MnKsaclmselts. it was reported in the jmpers at the time, and there was a general supposition. 470 10 20 40 6() i.\. H. AlfXiiiidiM' — <*i(»ht«.) Q. — Thut iH not my (iiicstion. I iiHk(>(l you if you could Hay from your knowl«' "R. H. Marvin," Mr. Ilenry II. Colby, of (Jloueenter. and I heard him say that when she was ready for seji she would t-ost in the neighborhood of .*i:i.O(MI. (i. — Ho it is from what a man told you that you were speaking of tln' cost of this vessel? A. — I didn't see the money paid, I see a bill of sale of course. (2. — IHd y«»n ke«'p any trace of the c«»st of any imrt of the vessel? A. — O, no. (i. — And you had no means? A. — I didn't keep an itemiz- ed a«'count. Q. — You can speak only from what this man told you, and what you may have seen in the pai)er8? A. — That is what I Itased my judgm<>nt on. (i. — I su]>pos(> it is about the same as with the other two M'ssels you have mentioned? A. — Yes. about the same. ii. — Your exjierience is of the same nature. From the age^ "f 21 up to 1KS5, what were you engaged in? A. — I was en- ^'iiged at different times — some parts of the year I was en- jjaged in sail-making, and some parts of the year I was en- ^'iiged in the Ashing business. (i. — Whei-e? A. — In (Sloucester. Mass:ichusetts. «>. — -Mways tluMe? A. — Not always, three years of this time I was in Lynn, Massachusetts, I think along the lat- ter part of the 'Tit's. The most of the time I was working with my father and k(>e|>ing his Itooks, and things of that kind. (}. — When were you keeping his books? A. — I think that was along about ISTJt. or 1880 or 1881. somewhere along there. (i. — When did you go to Heliring Sea? A. — I went to iSdiiing Sea in 188S the first year. (^ — How long were you in Hehring Sea that year? A. — I iliink we left San Francisco on the 4th day of July, we land- we took on the Mivage. Went to Ounalaska, remained theiv 8«»verjil days, ^!iily. il was sometimes a week each tinje, but did no cruisng ill Ueliring Sea. '::• i I ■■t \ii\ 1 1 ■ !i + m m '^1',' ;i H!^ i 1 fP?" MM'I 20 3*^ 40 50 60 480 (A. H. AI»'Xiiunc4> in Itt-lirint; Km in IHSK? How loiiK wen- .vou in Iti'lirinK Mm? A. — Tlio niowl of tlii' Huninii'i'. ii. — HtnU' thf jM'riHiu|m tlu' lIlMi, until tlu> latU>i- |Mirt of AuKUHt. |H>r ha|')M tilt' 2ritli or .'totli. Q. — On wliiit vcsHel wi'iv .von? A. — I'nitod Htiit«'« »lilp "AllmlroBH." (i. — WnB hIm' st'iUin^V A. — No, hIi'. (i. — What wa« hIic doinK? A. — 8I10 waH <>nt;aK<>d in Imt legitimate duty collt'ctinK information alKiiit the flMheiieH, d«H>]> Hea HoundiuKH, and livdro^rapliic worl<. Q.— When were you next in HehrinR Sea? A— 181MK (i. — llow long? We were there aliout the same time aH be- fore. (J. — On what vessel? A. — The "Albatross," same veusel. Q. — In the sam«* oeeupatlon? A. — In the same oecnpation. Q.— Next? A.— 1891. Q. — On what vessel? A. — Sanse veswl. (J. — OecnjiyinK the same position again? A. — The same. Q.— 18»2?" A.— In 18!>2 I was on the n-venue cutter "Oor- win." I was on the "Corwin," also oh the "Uusli." I was on the "Corwin" only on this e«»!ist, ornising from Vietorin up to Fnirweather Orounds and baek again, boarding sealers, and gathering infonnatiim. Tlie same year after leaving her I joined the "Albatross" and remained with her for two or thn'e days, and then was transferred to the "Rush." Q. — How long did you n'umin in Behring Sea in 1802? A. — I think we got there somewheres the first of July, and re- mained there until about the 28th of August. Q. — Not oecuiued at sealing at all? A. — On board the revenue cutter "Hush" who were boarding vessels and rnn- ning lines from the Pribyloff Islands 25 miles out each way, KM) miles apart, and taking soundings, noting the abundance or scarcity of seals in the zones we imssed over, and what seals we got I used to skin them and prepare them for the Natitmal Museum. Q. — In 18!)3 were you in Hehring Rea? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On what vessel? A. — I was «m the "Albatross." Q. — In sejiling? A. — She was engaged taking soundings, but occasionally would board a fealer and gather infonna- tion in connection with s(*nlH. Q.— What vessels did you board in 18!>.'J? A.— Well. I don't know as I <'ould answ<'r that (juestion correctly. I re- member two or tlir«H> different occasions tliere were vessels boarded, which ones 1 don't know, I think the "Triumph" was one, and I think the "Marvin'' was another. Q. — How long did you remain in Rehring Sea in 18!).T? A. — About the usual tme, about the latter part of August. Q.— Or the middle of July? A. — SometimeH the first of July, to the latter part of August, and sometimes the 8th or loll of September. The cruises vary. I cannot exactly put the dates. Q. — Then you went there in 1804? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — But up to 1804 the only year during which you were occnjded in S(>aling was in 1880, was it not? A. — 1802. Q. — And there was only one year that you were occupied at sealing? A.— Prevou's to 1804. Yes, sir. Q._What year was it? A.— That was 1802, Q.— Well in 1S04 when did you enter Behring Sea? A.— 1 tliink w<' got into ISeliring Sea soniewliere about the 20tli of June. I think it may liave been a week earlier. 1 J 30 -10 S^ 60 481 (A. li. .\li-Xiiiid«'r — (;ro88.) t^. — And you remaiued to wLut dutf? A. — Wc iuudi> neve- ml i-ruiHi'B all afuuud th<- iHlaudM. H. — AiiswiT uty qiK-Htioii. I'p l» what date did jon r«)- aiaiu? A. — 1 wait on two vvhmi'Is, I went up on liic "Albat- roMs" and I left thu "AlbalroHH" aftn- nutkhiK Heveral cruiHi'M in the Hca, 1 lett her at OnualaHka on tliu L'7tli of July tlifn I iMHirdi-d till* LouiH Ulwn" tlun wint into tin- Mm uu u Hoai- iiig voyage. Q. — Ho that ."kou woro on tin- "OiHeu" only fioui tin- lidth of July, or li'Jth of .July you miy? A. — 1 think we left out through the I'ninuik I'aMH on the 2">i'd day of AugUHt, and liinie down to N'ietoi-ia. (i. — And that wan your Heeond experienn- at Healing? A. Yes, Hir. Q. — In what lapaelty were you on board the Hhip? A. — I waH ueut there by the Cnitccl Htates Fish <'oniniiHHion to pitlier what informal ion 1 i-ould with rejtard to Heal life, ex- iiniine their HtoniachH, au to what they feed u|Hin, and gath- i-r what information came to my «»t)H«-rvation, taking tempera- lureH, noting the veloeity of the wind, and thingH of that i;ind. il. — Again in 181)5 you were in the Hea? A. — Yes, Hir, iu the "Dora Hieward." Q. — What time did you enter Uehring Kea? A.— Came in •luue, the latter part of June. I'oHHibly the tlrHt of July, I joined the "Sayward" 1 think it waK July 2!>tli, 1895, either t lie 27th or the 2i)th 1 have forgotten whii-h. (i. — And you remained? A. — 1 remaiued on the "Dora Sieward" until the I2th dav of October, when we landed in Viitoria. y. — Hut in H< hring Sea you remained how long? A. — I think tlie 22nd day of 8i>ptember. Q. — Wan she occupied in Healing? A. — All the time. (2.— I'p to the 22nd day of Septemlwr? A.— I think that wiiH the date. (i. — Was tlmt youi" last seaHon in Itehring Sea? A. — Tliat was my last season. (). — I believe your experience has lu-en that the seals were i|uite tame in Behring Sea, wen' they not? A. — At times lliey are. (i. — In July and August? A. — Sometimes they are, and sometimes not. {I — As a rule? A. — It depends upon the weather. Q.— As a rule, are they not easily ;ii»i»roached? A. — ros- sildy. I may say under certain circumstances, yes. Q.— I believe your experience has Imhmj that they are (piite plfiiliful durina;' -Tnly and August in Uehring Sea? A.— I liiive seen them quite jdentiful. (J.— As a rule you have seen them in large numbers have you not? A.— Well that would d»'pend on what constitutes large quantities. Tlu' Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Is not this a matter (»f a sliut out on the other side, Mr. Beique? Mr. Beique: — I do not think so. The Commissioner on the jmrt of the United States: — Does it not rehile to (lie questiim Mr. Lansing p;it which was ex- I liidcd? Of what consequence is it to us. wl>"t*he condition '•f seal life was in 1S1>4 or 18JI5 when he was /e. The Commissioner on the part of Fler Majesty: — I feel this \vay. that I do not think we ought to go into an enquiry as ((> the condition of seal life in 1804. If. howi'ver. the evl- il'iice as taken shows that Mr. Lansing w(>nt into that on Ills direct examination, thou T think, according to the usual 'M i ^i' .•I M 'I' ill H ' 'mi' : 1 M .1 ■ Mi II T I I ,! 4S3 lu 30 (A. II. Alcxinidfi — rroHH.) t-iili'H, a I roHM I'xaiiiiiicr wonM liavi' lihfi't.v to fiOluw it. Oth> <>rwiM«', you would liavf Honii- of tlit' <>vl:lfiu-«> that wt* inJKht think not ri'Icvant, and ri-all.v (tliJ*-ctionahh> on tin* notOH, and no <-ro<«N examination, wliirh niiKlit |M-i-ha|m tvnd to i|ualirv it, or nilKht not. Thfrfforc, it would m-fni to nif that to d«-- l<'nnin<' wlii'tluT IIi«>h«- qucMtiouH kIiouUI Ii<> ankcd l),v Mr. Ml*- i|n(>, Wf art' Hiniply to m>«> wlifthfi' thr matter wan k<»i«' into It.v Mr. LanHiuK. It Hiru niatt«>r. and that tin* t'ni|uiry WUH to Nonu' «'Xli>nd intori-d upon that would admit all th«-H<> (|ut-NtionH. At tli<- Hanu> tinir I a(!i'i'*' with my li-arnm(>«I an irrt'lcvant ono. Thi' only tpicHtion in my mind Ih touching tlii> t-xaminatlon of tlilH witnt'HM, and. not the K<>ii>K i"t<> " luTfaftor, wluTr it Ih not o|HMi (HI rroHH-cxaminatitui, to >«M>k to rroHH-rxamlnt- u|M)n «'vid<'nc-t' tluit Ii.ih Ix-cn admitted. It miKht tx' tin* ImM ter plan to have the whole Htritken out. and that wtnild oh- vlate any difflcuity. The CummlHHiom-r on the part of the I'nited States: — 1 a^rtH' with my learned asHoeiate that it ought t(» he all «trieken out. Of eourw tin* (pieHtion put with reference to the nii|;ratory nature — the <|uesti«)n whether seaU were found in one pl:ue at one HeuHon, and in another at another, Ih en- tirely ditTen-nl. 30 'IllMtni 40 Mr. LanHiuK: — I think my <|ueHtion led up ti» that, ami I particularly avoided the (pKNtion aH to the abundance of HealH in any particular year 1 in compariHon with any other year, or any Mtatement an th«> number of m-alH taken on any date, or during; any ycii I merely UHked the queHtion UH to whether KealM could be found in abundance at one place, and at the Hame time return there another year and not be found in abundance. It wiih merely to bring out the fact that they were migratory in their habits of feeding. Mr. I»eii|ue:— My learned friend ban gone a little further. The t.'ommiHSKnier on the |»art of (lie liiited States: — What you say, Mr. LauHing. is perhaps correct, but my mind caught the fact that vou were investigating the condition of seal life in istt4, and I connected it at once with this same ((ues tion you and Sir Charles Tapper had been discussing ation beyond what the cir cumstances fairly require. Tlieref«u'e I have several times inter]iosed. It is on this ground that I was reluctant to sec these affidavits (qtened up. and for the same reason it was I interposed by my question t<» Mr. Lansing. I have done it main ly in the way of <|uestionH, kiuiwing jKM-fectly well that we are all feling our way so far as this case is concerned. When we come to other cast s we perhaps can pro<'ee4'ii niiiiiily ill tli«> wii.v of iiiicKtioiiM, liiiviiiij; in iiiiii iiit;lit Iio|n' to liavt' fiirtlicr aloii^;, a|)|)rffiiitiii(; tlii' difllniltit'H fouiii*«*l luiv*- aii«l iloiihtitiK iiol roniiHfl niipitM-iat)' tin* tilfllnillit'H wliUii tli<' roiiinilHNioiK'rH have iiiidtM- tli<> i-ircutiiHtaiit'cH. Tlu" (JoiniiilHHlomT on IIm' ;ar1 of Ilcr Mhj«»h1.v: — I do not wImIi to Ih' tlioiit'lit aH liavlntr att)'m|)t«>4l to lii.v down any ({imi «>ral rule, but Hiniply to deal with tli(> pnirtical i|ii:-«tlon of wlu'tlicr tli4> (TOHH-t'xaniltiation |iro]KTly arow out fif the dirert examination, TliP (jtunniiHMioiK'r oil the part of t>u> riiiti-d Hlat«>H: — t'oiii ini; to till' practical matter Ixfoii' iih, iiiv learned aHHot-iati- HiiKKeHtM that it he Ntrit-kcii out. Tlierc Ih oim* otlirr way wliifli would be to allow iMr. I.anHinK to put the qiioHlioii an to wliii-h I rlicfked liini. and tlit-n let Mr. Ilfii|iit' follow out 20 IiIh line of rnilfd Slalew we tIeHirc to Hay tliat we will a^ret' with out- learned fri*-ndH on tlie other Hide tliat tlie eiosN e.xiimiiiation <>n this point in pM-niiine to llie dire — by thiH witiieHS. by the lialtitK of the Heal, the iiiiRratory liabiU; aii<) it would Heeiii to uh that tlie (piention of Mr Meii|Ue to 30 the witneNH wan pertinent to the eroHH-exnininaion. We have not objei'ted. The CoinniiHHioiier on tin- part of tlie Tiiited 8tut«'H: — If that Ih tlie view of (he eounHel for the I'nlted Htaten. Mr. LanHinf; nhould be allowed to obtain an annwer to his queH- tion. I 40 lC Mr. DiekiiiHoii: — lie obtaiiuHl that nnswer, may it pleoHc your Honour, b<>arinK on tluH part of tlie eaHe. It did not b(>ar directly on 1H!)I, or any other year. Fnini thiH Htatement of the liabitHof theneal wep't a eondition that tlie liabitH of the wal are mifrratory in the following tlie tinli feed. Then my friend dcHireH to know liow many wain ho liad seen there, from his praetieal experience, and how tliey can be approach- ed. The GoniiniHHioner on the part of the T'nitcMl StatoB: — All tlie quefltions have been answered ho far. Mr. Iteique: — I think it is but proper, tiien* beinK so much dimuHHion on tliat jioint, for me to ntate that my only object is to cross-examine the witness on this statement he hat* niad(> on direct examination that, taking such and such con- diticms as were mentioned in the question it is very problemati- cal as to what amount of s<>nls would be caught, and I think from tliat point o' view without enlargiuK on tlie tleld of the exaniinntion, my lueation is altogether a proiHT one for (•loss-examination. 6o C'ross-examination continued by Mr Beiquo: I Q. — You admit that every year you went to Itehriiig Sea you found a large quantity of seals, both iu July and August? .\. — Found a larger (piantitv iu the vear 181)5 than we did in lS!t4. Q. — Hut in both years you found a large quantity? A. — Found a considerable (luantity. MM ' ■! 1 ' , ,1 t t ; if'fnp]!"™; 484 10 20 40 .•IJImimi 50 60 (A. U. Ah'xaudt'i- — Citms.) Q. — Hoth iu July and August? A. — Hoth August aud Sep- tember, 18!)4, a few in July, we were not hunting In July, we paiDsed through them on our way to the hunting grounds. Q. — And from your observation you have ascertained, ho far as you were able to ascertain, that from year to year they remained in Hehring Sea in large quantities in July and Aug- ust? A. — That is th«' natural sealing grounds dumg those months in Hehring Sen; there must be a large quantity of fish on whi<-h they live in Behri;g Sen around tlie Piibylofl' Islands at that time, they being fish eating mammals, of course there must 1m^ a large number of fish in order for them to subsist. Q. — And 1 believe you have ascertained also that they were not easily friglitened, and they could be i-asily a])proached as a rule? A. — Hut that rule is subject to variations. Q. — Have you not ascertain«>d that, and have you not made reports to that efTect? \. — In n great many cases they arc quite e.isily apjironched, but th«>re are times when they are not. Q. — Have you not niade several reports to your (Sovern ment to tlu' efTect tliat they ar«' easily approached? A. — 1 think you will find n play ing about, sometimes on the crest of a wave, and then in tlie hollow of a sea. They seemingly had no fixed course, but would swim in one direction a Imlf a mile or so, return and go in an opposite way. It is more than likely, had the wind been blowing a strong gale, tliey would all liave been bound in one direction." Is that correct? A. — It is. Q. — .\nd you reported also the effect that tliey were not easily frigliteneti by vessels, that vessels being amongst thcni liad not the effect of frightening tlu'Ui. Mr. Dickinson: — Will you show that report to the witness. Mr. Hel(|ue: — 1 ask him . Th«' Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — You must sliow it to the court, or stmieone. Mr. Hei(|ue: — 1 wonld lilie to test tlie memory of the wit ness before I show it to him. To Witness: — Did you make a report to tliat effect tliat they were not easily frightened, even if there were vess(4s * amongst them. The 4'oniniisi(uier on the part of the Vnited States: — If it is ill writing Mr. Heiqiie, you must show it to him beftu'e yoii ask him? 4^5 (A. |{. Alcxtindcr — <'ro8H.) Sir <'. H. TnpiM'r: — To h'«t IiIk iiu'Iiumv. The ConiniiBHioni'i- on the part of the I'liitetl States:— You •■annot tent his nieinory in tliat way. Mr. Heique:— Suppose lie had made no report. I suppoH(> I would be allowed to ask him whether from his experience he found it so. 10 To Witness:— From yonr experience is it not a fact tluit I lie seals are not easily frightened even when vessels are amongst them? A.- -I have seen them on s»'veral occasions when they were not easily frightened, and I have also seen tliem on other occassions when they were. Q. — Did you jnake the follovung statement in Document vn. Part 2, 1'age 123. "When «|uite near them one of the seals lifted its head up. but the sight of the vessel caused no alarm. Having no boat to lower, or epenr to throw a loud noise was ^Q made by shouting and luxating upon a tin can. This did not iiave the effect of frightening them" and also on same page. ".\t 7 a.m.. a sleeping seal was observed under our lee. «-lose aboard, but not in a position to detect us by the sense of smell. A canoe was soon launched and starttd in pursuit, but the short choppy sea made it somewhat difficult to catch it? In calm weather, or at times when there is only a light wind stirring, a canw in approaching a seal is generally pad- dled directly from the leeward, but in a chojipy sea such as prevailed on this occasion, an Indian always ap]>roa<'he8 side 30 to the wind, which brings the canoe in the trough of the sea and prevents it from making any noise that would disturb the 'sleeper' ■' A. — That is correct. Q. — On page l2!> of the same document, did you malce the following statement, "No seal life was observed until the mid- dle of the day, when one seal was noticed asleep not far from the vessel, and so soundly that the fla])ping of the canvas did not disturb it. It was cai)tured. Its stomach was empty?" v.— I did. Q. — And on page 124 of the same document, did you make 4° the following statement? "Late in the afternoon we passed close to such a patch covering a considerable area, in which .six seals were playing. They jKiid no attenti(m to the ves- sel, although within KM) yards of them. A hunter with a shot gun could have captured two or three of the number, and iin Indian with a spear would have secured at least two?" A. -I did. y. — And further. "At 5 p m., the canoc-s returned with a ratch of 42 seals?" A. — Yes, that is correct. , ^ y.— .Vnd on page 2<).'l, of the first part of the same docu- ^* Mient did you make the following statement? "On a day like this, when seals showed no inclination to sleep, shot guns in t)u> hands of skilful hunters would have done very destruc- tive work to the seal herd, for exi)erienced hunters kill near- ly, if not quite as many tnivelling seals during tlie course •>f a season as sleeping onep.?"' A. — That was correct. Q.— Rased on vour observations? A. — Yes. Co The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — He means by that"destructive work" that they would have wounded iliein, but that they would have escaped. (i. — Do you mean that they would have been caught? A. —I mean a larg«» jM-rcentage of them would have been caught, iliat was the meaning I intended to convey. ti.— Did you not also find at times that even the firing of '-'iins would not disturb them? A.— 1 do not recollect ot a < iise of that kind, where the firing of guns would not disturb, MiilcHs they might be quite a distance removed from the ves- ;P ill If ■ I 1 ; 4! 11 I '- •1 i i i ^jiiil II 1 ' f '^' !.-• ^''""«f!|ii| ij ■ ■ ' . ■ !■ -■ f i 1 ': ''"'til'' i 1 i; -.rvvir ,fi 1 ' ■lli ri^i'^*; ! .tJI hi , If'i',' I MIMm!> 20 30 486 (A. K. AlfXiiudi'f — ('ro88.) 8i>l, or iKtiit iM>K8il)ly, but I do not have a recollection of any- thing of that kind. Q. — Would you take communication of Senate DocumentK, Dock 137, paragrapli 2. pajjes 5(1, 51, 52, 53, and 54 and siiy if the information therein contained wa« obtained from you? A. — I think that the American s(ho. McLean, master, 188« and 1887 and the "Henry Dennis," of 1891, was obtained by me. The "Mary Ellen" was not. Q. — What data had you to >;ive the information as to the "Favourite" in 188G and 1887? A.— The log which the cap- tain gave me. Q. — So that you were satisfied that the figures as printed on page 53 of this book are according to the log of the ves- sel for the two years? A. — I got it from the log and submit- ted the manuscript to the printer. If they made a mistake I do not know, I have not the notes with me that I gave, but 1 could obtain them probably. Q. — Where is the log? A. — The log was in the Ciiptain's possession. I got this in Oiinalaska in 18i>5, I think, on board the vessel the time I was on the "Dora Sieward." Q. — -Vnd you are satisfied that is correct? A. — That Is jirobably correct. Q. — Now yoti say that you examined the "(/'arolena" in 1888? What tim<> of the yvuv was it you examined her? A. — That was along abotit the middle of July, I slumld think. (i. — Were you alone when you examined her? A. — No, sir. (2. — With whom were you? A. — I was in company with Captain Daniel of the "Albatross," C II. Townsend, whose name is there; Lieut. Pamister of the Navy; Lieut. Johnston and some sailors. Q. — Would you swear that the "Carolena" was not bult with Oregon pine or Douglas flr? A. — I would not swear she was not built of it. Q. — You did not lind that she was not built of that kind of wood? A. — I think she was built of s<»me kind of soft wood. Q. — Do you call Oregon pine soft wood? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you call Douglas flr soft wood also? A. — It comes under the head of soft wood. Q. — When you saw the "Carolena" she was in a dilapidated condition, was she not? A. — Yes, sir. (j. — She had been lying on the beach, from the best of your information, since 188(5? A. — Yes, sir. y. — Without any attention being given to her? .\. — There was no attention given to her to my knowledge. Q — And the value that you put on her is from the exam- inati(,n that you had made of her then? A. — Yes. sir, as com pared with other vessels of a similar type and age. Q. — Can you s|M'ak from actual knowledge of any vessel that you would cttmpare with the "Carolena" — the cost of building any other vessel of the same type or same age that would compare with the "Carolena"? Can you speak from actual knowledge? A. — Yes, sir. il- — Well, what vt'ssel? A. — \ vessel that my father own ed called the "Village." She was a vessel probably a little 60 larger than the "Carolena" but of the same type, iind built probably about the same time. Q. — Huilt where? A.— I think slu' was built in Essex. Massachussetts, but I am not positive as to that. Q. — By whom was she built? A. — I cannot tell you by name. Q. — You can not sp4>nk as to the cost of building that other vessel? A. — I know what she was sold for and what she 40 50 10 20 30 40 r,o 48; (A. I{. Ah'Xandci' — Cross.) was l)()U(;lit for svlicn slu* was about tlic saiiu- afjt* as tlie "("arolena." Q. — Whpr«» was slic sold? A. — In (lloufcstcr. Massachns- st'tts. Q.— When? A.— About 1H7H or 1«7!». I should think about tliat. Q. — And vou base the valuation that you juit upon thf "Carolina" on the sale of that vessel? A. — Well. I have her in ni.v mind now. (l. — Have you in your mind any other vessel which you lan [)V\nii forward as a point of comparison with the "("arolena"? .\. — Yes. I have (juite a number of veswls in my mind which I could compare. il. — What are they? A. — \'essels of a similar size and about the same a^e. y. — What are they? \. — Fishinjj vessels. {}. — What name? \. — The "Komp" for one. t^. — What other? .\. — A vessel bv the name of the "Island Melle." (i. — Have you any personal knowledge as to the cost of these two vessels? A. — I know what they sold foi-. y.— Where? A.— In (Moucester. Mass. (i.— When? A.— The "Island Helle' was sold in ISH2 and she was about the same siz»> as the "rarolena." The "Romj)" was, I believe, sold one or two years earlier than that dat«'. Q. — And it is on that also that you base your valuation? .\. — Possibly on that. (■i- — They were old .•i>!sel8? A. — They were (dd vessels. Q. — And they were sold as second hand vessels? A. — Yes, sir. thev were a similar tvpe to the one we are spenkin); of. Q. — And they were sold on the eastern coast? A. — Yes. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — What price did these vessels sell for? \. — The "Village" I have reference to probably mit;;ht have been ten tons lartjer than the "Carolenn." She sold for fl.(MM». She was about the same age as the "Carolena" when I saw her. The "Komp." when I saw her. sold for fl.SOO about. I am not quite posi- tive. .Mr. neicpie: — In imikintj your valuation of the •Cantlena" did you bear in mind that she had been practi- cally rebuilt in 1H,S4? .\. — Well. jud(;in^ frcmi her l(M»ks when I saw her, if she had lu'cn re-built in 1884, the work was not very substantially done. (i. — You did not take the r«' building into consideration in making your valuation? A. — I am taking her as she was at that time basing it on what she was in ISSti and what I saw- in 1888. ti- — When you saw her yoti did not know that she had been I)ractically rebuilt in 1884? A.— No. sir. (I — Therefore you did not take that into consideration? A — Xot at that time. There was no evidence of it that I •■on Id see. Q. — Do you know Mr. Williams, whose name api)eai-s here? .\.— He was sjx'cial agent, I think, on the Pribvloff Islands. I met him. 4. iii n ,!!il!i. i-,1; ji'H ,1 li" i., 1 "I i' !■ : ! ■ •' •'li ' lO 488 (A. U. Alcxiindi'i- — CroHH.) Q. — A S«'nat<' document is it? Mr. Bt'i(HK': — Yen, it is liis rc'port. To Witness: — Q. — Look at this docuniont and I will read the foll<»wiu{; from your report: "On the next day 54.H north latitude, liilA west, we navv our first seals, 20 in number, 12 of which were sleepers. In the afternoon we saw six seals, about half a mile from tlie vessel, feeding in a bunch of seaweed. Tlie sea at that time was perfectly smooth with a liftht air astern. The two hunters and myself started out in a boat to watch them and to see how near we could approach without disturbing tliem. We soon learned they were unusually tame as we approaclied near enough to touch one with a spear pole. They show- ed little sense of fear, notwithstanding we were within about ;<(• feet of them for about ten minuteH, diving under llie sci weed and constantly thrusting their heads through. It 20 seemed to atford them great pleasure. They paid little at tention to us and seemed almost indifferent as to how near we approa<'hed as we did freciuently. This caused the hunt- ers to exclaim several times: 'if we onlv had a gun we could kill them all.' " Is that correct ? A. — Yes. Q. — On page 116 of the same volume, did you make the folowing r»'port : "Every hunter reported s»*als numerous about half of fhe 20 number being asleep. They slept in bunches of six and eight, and when aroused from their slumbers were very tame, but owing to the inexperience of hunters with spears, in a comparatively rough sea, the sucessfiil throws were few and far between. Had the hunters been provided with shotguns instead of spears it is saf(; to say tliat a liundred or more seals would be nearer the day's catch." Did you make that report? A. — Yes. Q. — And you were referring to white hunters? A. — These were white hunters in the boat with spears. Q. — You consider that white hunters with guns would have more suc-cess than with spears? A. — I should think so. Q. — For how Tuany years have you been an employe of the I'nited States Oovernment? A. — Since the spring of\18Sri. Q.— And you are still In their employ? A. — Still in their employ, yes. Q. — And you have helped in preparing the defence of tlw United States? Yon have bci'u collecting data and making reports on tlu' various forms of seal life? A. — I have taken no action In the case. I have furnihsed data and made inv reports, that is all. Q. — You have stated that when you examin(>d the "Parn lena" you did not notice that slie had any copper fastenings? A. — I did not see any. I would not swear that slie had none in any pan of her, but I did not s«'e any. I saw spikes. Q. — She may have had without your seeing? A. — Possi bly, but she was not all copper fa8t«'ned. There were soiiie places wlu'rt' I could see spikes, and they sur«»ly were not Co <'<>PP'''"- Possibly there might be <'oj>]>»'r in her, but she was not what I would call a copper-fastened vessel. Q. — You said that her lin«'s were |)rimitive as compared to modern schooners? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What do you mean by that? A. — She was what they call an old-fasiiioned typ<'. She was full bow. She was full all over. She had but very litth' dead rise, and she had very full lines from bow to aft all over. She was what you would call an old-fashioned type of vessel. 40 50 489 1<1 10 20 40 VI 60 (A. |{. Aloxaudt'r — ('rosst K«' direct.) Q. — >\'ould .you say from what you have soen that sho wan not a fast salltT? A. — She could not be couHidertMl a fast saih'r, never havtuii; seen her sail, but JHd(ring from her lines. Q. — If, as a mutter of fact, she was found to be a fast sailer, you would not be a good judge as to the proper lines of a vessel? A. — If she were a fast wiiler 1 would not \m' a good judge, but I doubt it. Q. — You doubt it? A. — 1 doubt she was a good sailer, compared with the modern vessels. I am not comparing her with her own class. I am comparing her with the mod- ern type of vessels about which you spoke. Q. — What vessels that are known here would you mention as being modern and fast sailers? A. — I do nnot know any modern fast sailers to compare in size with her, but take a tyjie of vessel hke the "Agnes Macdonald'' or the "Zillah May," belonging to this port, a little larger boat. Q. — You cannot name any British Columbia schoimers that you consider fast sailers? A. — The "Agnes Macdonald" is probably a fast sailer. Q.— She is a big vessel? A.— Take the "Zillah May." Slie is here. Q. — What tonnage is she? A. — I think about 60 tons. Q. — What vessel about the tonnage of the "Carolena" would you mention as being a faster sailer, in your opinion? A. — I do not know of any other vessel of about that tonnage in British Columbia that is a fast sailer. Q. — Do you know any in Ran Francisco? A. — The nearest approach of any vessel that I know around here of a very good sailer would be the Casco, and she is even larger. (J. — What tonnage was she? A. — I should judge she was nearly 60 tons jtossibly. Q. — So that you cannot name any vessel about here from .'to to 40 tons timt you consider good sailers? A. — I do not know of any. Re-I)ir«»ct Examinatitm by Mr. Lansing. Q. — Mr. Alexander, did you ever s«»e ('apt. Alexander -McLean? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How long ago? A. — I saw him a year ago this sum- mer. Q. — Was that th«> first time? A. — I have seen him, but not to speak to him. I have st'en him on the street. He has been pointed out to m«*. i}. — Did you obtain any data from him in regard to these logs in question? A. — No, sir. Q. — He was not the Captain McLean tnnn whom you re- ceived them? \o, sir. Q. — Was it from another Captain McLean that you ob- tained these figures? A. — Of what vessel do yon speak? (i. — I speak of the Canadian schooner "Favourite"' marked in the report as D. M<-Lean. master, 18S6? A. — Yes, 1 ob- tained the flguivs which apjtear here from (^ai)tain McLean of the "Favourite." I obtained them at Ounalaska in ISO.^. il. — Xot from Captain Alexander Mcl><'an, and not from Ca]itain Daniel McLean? A. — \o, I never saw that gentle- man. The captain I had refer»'noe to was the captain of the "Favourite." Q. — Ca|)tain Laughlin McLean, was it not? A. — 1 cannot say as to that, but I think he is still captain of the "Favour- ite." ep more soundly than on an empty stomach. Q. — I did not know Init that this seal might be ill when you could not wake him u|) with a tin pan. .V. — He slept well, that is all. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States:— What is your precise ofticial position, and what are your otti- cial duties? The witness:— On the ".Ulialross." 10 20 30 40 60 4 what. I am Htill on tli«' books as fishery •'XjM'rt of the "Albatross." but I am doint; different work. I am now investiniitinji reports on the northwest «'oast as n*- {jards the abundance (»f Ash and so on. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Q. — Are yonr headipiarters at Hlaine? Witness: — I luive been at Khiine hist summer investiK«it- uifi fish<'ries there. My ])rinci]ml phice w Seattle. The Comnnssicmer on the part of tlie I'nited States: — What are the precise duties of your position? Witness: — On the "Albatr<»ss" Mr. Townsend and I work toffether; he belou^H to the scientitic corps, beinp the analyst in charge. We both collect together all species (»f flsh and all other animals that we can. and when we are at sea there is a good 'deal of deep sea dredging carried on and we gather up the contents of tlu' bag which goes to the bottom and take it to the laboratory and classify it and send it to Washing- ton. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — What are you called, in a general way? Witness: — Generally, we might be called collectors. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — (Jet- ting up facts. Witness: — Getting all data and information possible bear- ing on the subject. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I suppoM> Mr. Alexander, we are to understand that the reports that you made, to the ext«'nt that they have been read, narrated true circumstances? Of course you will say yes. Witness: — They are truthful to the extent they go and sub- ject t(» any qualifications. The Conimissis«>nt time? A. — No, sir. Q. — Well, a great portion of the time? A.— I believe the first vessel I was master of was in 1^75. Q. — And from what port did yon sail? A. — From San Francisco. Q. — You have been sailing j'ver since you came around? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you have b«H'n a master how lone? A. — Since 1875. Q. — What was the first year vou had charge of a sealing vessel? A.— In 188(i. Q- — Prior to that time had yon been out on any fishing vessel or on any voyage that would take you among the seals or into Behrng Sea? A.— Yes, sir; I had been sailing mas ter of the schooner "Otter" out of San Francisco in IHHn? Q. — Did you go into the Behring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How many years were you in the Hehring Sea between 188() and 1886? A.— Three years. Q. — What boat were you on in 188(!? A. — The "San Die- go." Q.— What boat were you on in 1H87? A.— The "Allie I. Al ger." Q. — As master? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — Where did you sail from? A. — Seattle. That is, the vessel was built at Seattle, but I went to San Francisco and fitted her up. Q. — You were master of the "San Diego" in 188fi? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— What boat were yo.- sailing on In 1S88? A. — 1 was on the "Alger." Q.— And in 1S89? A.— I was in th«' ".lames Hamilton I^wis." Q. — As master both years? A. — Yes. Q.— The "James Haiuilto"t sometimes. Q. — Did you outfit the various ships in which you sailed yourself? .\. — I always nuide out the list for provisions and 10 493 (('. K. Kiivuoi— Dimt.) uutflt iu gfiivral. and uIho HiKiicd the billH bcfuiv the.v wi>ro puld. Q. — So that you wen- ai-qnaintcd with the prift'H of the various articles whUii went on board the ship? A. — Yes. Q. — Are you able to dlHtlnguish between what constitutes a ship's outfit? Mr. Peters: — Is tills outfit at Wan Frsincisfo or in Victoria? Mr. Warren :— When we come to details I will tell .vou. I am asking his experience. To the witness: Q. — I believe you outfitted always at San Francisco or Re attle, did you not? A. — I did. Q. — I suppose. Captain, that you are acquainted with the (ietails of a sealing outfit? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — And also what belongs to the ship? A. — Yes, sir. 20 Q. — And are able to distinguish what belongs to the 8hi[i from what belongs to the scaling outfit? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — You say tliat you never bought and sold any vessel, hut you were aware of the valuation placed on the "Allle I. .Mger" and the "James Hamilton Lewis" by the owners? A. — Yes. sir. (i. — And you have been aware of the value placed upon otlier vessels by their owners? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — In San Francisc«> and Seattle? A. — Yes, sir. {}. — Were you ax-cpiainted with the vessels that were seal- 30 ing out of th«' jmrt of San Francisco In 1880? A.— I think I can recollect the most of them. Q. — If you can remember the vessels of the class 8U<'h as were used for sealing purpo8«*8 that sailed out of the ports of San Francisco and S«nittle in the years 188(i and 1887, will you state them? A. — Out of San Francisi-o there was the "Otter," the "City of San Diego," tlie "San Uiego," t' "Van- dcrbilt." Q._The "Charles (5. Wilson?"' A.— Yes, sir. (}. — The "Annu"?" A. — I am not sure whether the "Annie" ■♦° scaled in 188(i or not. I think she made her first season In 1S87. ii. — .My (|U(>sti4m covers both years, 188fi and 1887? A. — In 1887 there was the ".\nnie" and the "San Jose," I do not re- member an}- more out of San Francisco as I know. (i.— The "Hosie Sjmrks?" .\.— Yes, sir. Q. — The "Lily L," do you know her? A. — Yes, sir, I know iicr. Q.— The "Lookout?" Q.— The "Laura?" (i.— The "Lottie?" (2.— The (i.— The (i.— The (i.— The (i.— Slu (i.— The "Challenge'/" A.— She saih'd from Seattle, A. — Yes, sir. A. — Yes, si I'. .\. — I don't remember 'La Ninfa?" .\. — Yes, sir. 'Kate and Ann'/"' A. — Yes "Helen Blum?" A. — Yes, "Kllen'/" A. — Yes, sir. was a small boat, I believe? t, sir. sir. her. remember her. remember her. \. — Yes, sir. ti. — The "Angel Uollie," do you remember her? A. — Yes, su'. 6o A. — No, sir, I Q. — The "Alpha." do y<»u remember her? don't. (i. — What boats were sailing out of the im)^ of Seattle in tlicse years other rhan those you have given? A. — I believe lliey were tlu' ".Mger" and tlie ''TeamM'," I think. Q. — What was the first year the "Alg«'r'' was out? .\. — Tliat was in 1887. (i.— She was built at Seattle, I tliink? A.— Huilt at Pe- utile. . 'Si if m '.■■■■ ii':, .1 '■ W^ ]':-■': '•': 1 1-- i !^- : i .Jilii i Msfi 1 4y4 'lliMiMi lO 20 30 40 so 60 («'. K. Ua.vmii— IMriMt.j H. — III till' vciii'H IXHW aiul 1HH7 .V()ii were frtMpnMitl.v in San Fraiiclmoi (»r at h'aHt .von wcif tlinc pi'«'|>ai-iiit; to p* to M«'a, wt'i'c ,v(Mi not? A. — V»'s. wir. (i. — And you wt-ic a<'(|iiainttMl with the uiai'kot vi;1ih' of v«'hh*'Ih tlu*r<'. HiK-li as \v«-i-(> til tod out to Im' uHcd for walini^ piir]K)H«-H? A. — V»'». sir. ii. — IMd vou ir<). sir, not that I heard of. Q. — Were you contined? A. — No, sir. Q. — I believe yon took the crews of the "Thorntid you take the mate. Markelich. who has testified in this case to Sitka? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — At Ounalaska was anythiufj taken olf the "Carolena" and put ashore? A. — Yes. sir. the seal skins were taken oflf and two boxes of bread. I believe. ii. — Was that some of the ]iilot bread? A. — Yes, sir. two boxes of pilot bread; I seen some jjuns pased out. ii. — Do you n'membei- Lieut. Cant well? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Did you see him take an invenFory of the runninff p^ar and ri}j!jrln caHf. Mr. WaiT«'ii: — I Hiibinit that we have a rifjlit to nhow a jmt- Mon an invcntorv wliirh lu> Htomi by ano vou mean to limit vour answer to the provisions, Captain? '■■ 4 i m \. im 1 ; 1 f ( f 11 i! i- M m 496 'iJVIioi 20 S'^ («'. K. Kii.viior— IHifft.^ WUiii'hh: — Vi"H, to tin- pruviHiouH. The ('oiiiiiiIkhIoiu'I' on tlii' jmrt of the I'liltt-d Stiit<'w: — You are not fl|H'akiiiK of the otiier urtich'H on the liut'' WitueHH: — No, Hir, I cannot tell all. The CominiHHhiner on the part of the I'nited StateH:--! UHked that question merely to have the record right. 10 Direct examination bv .Mr. Warren continued: (j. — How louK were you in OunahiHka? A. — I cannot tell the length of time I waH tliere, but 1 think it wuh Honiewhen' about five weekM. y. — How long waH the "Carolena" there? A.— The "Car olena," before tlie crew went down, I think, waH al»oui Hve or Hix days; that Ih, her crew, with the exception of Captain O^ilvie and the mate. Q. — How did Captain Dgilvie and the nmte go down to Sitka? A. — On tlie revenue cutter "Corwin." Q. — Y<»u say they were not confined in OunahiHka? A — No, 8ir; not that I heard of. Q. — Did you sec them ashore? A. — Yes, sir, I saw tluin ashore, and was ashore with Captain O^^ilvie. Q. — Did yon see the mate, Blake, ashore? A. — 1 did. ti. — Were they allowed to sleep on board their boats, ho far as you know? A. — Yes, sir, so far as I know. Q. — Did you sleep on board your own boat? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Were any orders enforced that you should not Iea\c the vessel? A. — No, sir, 1 never heard of any. Q. — Well, they were not enforced? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did the crew of the "Carolena" go down wilii you on the "San Diego" to Sitka? A.— No, sir. (i. — How were they taken down? A. — Tlu'y went to San Francisco on the steamer "St. Paul." Q. — The crew never were taken to Sitka? A. — No, sir. Q. — After you got to Sitka, Captain Kaynor, what Htejis were taken by the oflicers in regard to your ar-est and de- tention? A. — AVell, they told us that we could consider our selves imder arrest. Q.— When you say that you include Captain t)!;llvie antain Ogilvie and Mate Blake? A.— Yes. sir. . . , 1 ■ Q.— And so far as y«)u know the ofWcers of the other ships that were ther? A.— Yes. sir. Q._These ships were the "Thornton" and the "OnwarU. A Yfff sir. " Q._And liow big was this jury rm and in what building was if? A.— It was in tiie court house. The roun., I sliou.d think, was about 30 feet long by about l") broal. 40 50 60 497 10 20 O. K. Kiiyiioi— DiiiMt.) Q. — Wurt' thfy c«iiii|H'lli'd to hKh'p in that ruo'u or to rt> main tlwre — th'it iM, iM'fori' llio trial wo aiv talking «>f now? A. — No, Hir, tlii'y ronid Iuivl' gone «)n huanl tlio vohhcI and Hlt'pt on board lit-r, or wliatt'vi-r tin'.v iilti'd. (j.— Tlie fact Im tliat tlit*^- actually Hcli-cti-d this |,:.m ■ to Mh'cp iu iir»'f«'r»'nc«' to the vchhcI? A. — Ych. sir. (2. — iMiriuK the day they wtMv confined witliin the liniitn of the court houMc? A. — Not at all. (j. — Did yuu h«>i> Captain Ogilvii* and the mate iu tin- streets at Hitka? A — Ych, sir. Q. — And no ^uard was placed over them? A. — No, Hir, (liere was n«'ver any j^uard place»1 over uh until after the (rial. Q. — I am talkiup; of the time hefi..e the trial. Did you Hi'v the ca)>tainH and the mateM of the other vchhcIh ^:oin); jihout? A. — Yen, sir. (i.— >Vhere did they board? .\.-They ate up in the jury room. Q. — Who provided their board? A. — Tlie nmrshal. Q. — TTow long a time elapsed between the time you were notified you would have to a])]M>ar for trial at a later day and llie day that you a<'tually did appear for trial? A. — I cannot just tell, but I think It was about two weeks. • The Commissioners then rose. 30 ' 'iV.^r ^C Oommiasionen under the OoiiTeiition of February 8, 1896, between Ore»t Britftia and the United States of ilmerica Chambers of the Legislative i^ssembly, At Victoria, December 15, 1896. At 10.30 a.m. the Commissioners took tlieir stmts. 40 Direct examination of Captain Raynor resumed by Mr. Warren. il. — I believe we are examining you as to what occurred at Sitka before the trial of tlie captains and nuites of the tliree or four vessels that were tliere. How lonu; a time elapsed between the time tluit you considered yourself tinder arrest and the time of the trial? A. — \Vell, I couldn't say jiosi- tlvely as to tha^. I think somewliere about three weeks. I couldn't say positively. (■i. — The mate, Marlceti<*li, went down on your boat to Sit- liego?" A.— No, sir! Q. — Was there any comfortable place for him to sleep iit'oard the boat? A. — There was. ••52 60 '■'' iiii* iMl ',:* Trarr i|»Mm>> 10 49S (('. \]. Hii.Mior — Dirccl.i Q. — Where did he sleep? A. — He slept in llie forecastU'. (i. — As jn<:il ii bed as he hnd in the "On ward?" A. — Yen. sir. Q. — In the quarters pi'dvided for tiie mate? A.- A'es, sir; the same quarters. Q. — Your mate, I believe, went down on the "Porwin?" A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And Marketieh lived in the foreeastle of yitiir bout on the trip? .V. — Yes. sir. Q. — After th<' arrival of the eaptains and males of tlic •'Thornton" ani "Onward." were thev complained aftaiast formally? A. — Yes, sir; tle'.v were. Q. — Were tlie.v arrested in the same manner that yon were? .\. — Yes, sir, the same. Q. — Were thev restrained of their liberty in any way up to the time of the trial? A. — No, sii'. Q — Xow just tell the Commissioner."* aboni where th'- 20 mates and captains slejjt at Sitka before they went to the jnry room. I believe the "Candena." the "Onward" and "Thornton" wn-re left sit Onnalaska. so prior to the time they went to the jniy room where did these men sleep? .\. — They slept aboard the "San Diepo." Q. — That is your boat? A. — Yes. sir. {}. — Did they have their own beddinji? A. — Yes, sir. (2. — Had they take>i it olf their respenn did they stay on the "San Diejfo" befitre they decided to j;o into the jury room and sleep? A. — I think it was three days. Q. — When they surrendered their personal bail and asivcd tr» be allowed to sh'eji at the jail, did they? A. — Yes, sii'. Q. — Now is that Jusi the wa^ the tiling occurred, or were I hey compelled to fjo to the jury room and sleep? A. — \o, sir, that is just (he way the thinuhl say as >;ood as I ever had aboard of a ship. C^.— You had no c(Miii»lainl to nniki"? .\.— T did not, 499 10 A. — Y«'S. sir. (.^iiptaiii IIooiKT you not Ciiptain IIooimt, (('. K. Kaynor — Diiirt.) Q.— Did jou liear the others comphun of their food; any scarcity? A, — No, sir, not at all. Q. — Had all yoii wanted to eat? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Were Captain ORilvie and Mr. Blake there? A.— They were. Q. — At the same table and had tiie same fare as yon had? A. — They were; yes, sir. Q. — Was the table in tlie jury room, or did yon eat some- where else in tlie building? A. — Tliere was a table in the jury room. Q.— Brought in at meal time? A.— It stayed there all the time, sir. Q. — There was room in this i)lace. then, for a table to stand in addition to the r«»om for the nu-n to sleep? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How many meals a day did you have there? A. — I ate three meals. 20 Q. — Now, comint; to the trial. Were you there at the same time that all the rest were there? A. — Same day; I was there the same day, yes. sir. but after the other trials. Q. — I believe that yon waived a jury? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Because one was not to be had short of .Tunean? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Tlu' othei's were tried by jury? Q. — .Vnd for the accommodation of waived a trial by j\ny? A. — Yes, sir; ,Q but ('aptain Abby. Q. — Captain Abby was of the "<\)rwin" that year? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — Before tlie day of the trial Captain Onilvie had dis appeared, I believe? A. — Yi's, sir. Q. — He never was tried? .V. — No. sir. Q. — So that he never was detiiiiicd or imprisoned? A. — Xo, sir, he was not. eared at Sitka? .\.— \\ < 11. in Ounalaska when I went aboard the "Carolena," that was probably four or six hours after her arrival there, T couldn't say just exactly what time it was. 1 fouiul Caj>tain (»}iilvie in his berth sick, and he told me that he had been sutl'eriiiji from svi>hilis and had been takin.<; potash for it. an there. Captain, just tell what occurred and what you saw. Was he treated bv the surgeon or physician of the "Corwin?" .\. — Tie was. (J. — .\nd was he, so far as you observed, properly taken care of? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — AYas he taken by the surg(>on of th(> "Corwin" to Sit- ka? A. — Yes, sir, he was. Q. — .\nd they gave him some extra attention, did they? "^o .\.— Yes, sir. When he arrived at Sitka he seenu'd to be Iiretly well. He was around with us all the tinu', aiul 1 never heard liim make any complaint of anything. One day lie was missing. Q.— Just comjilete the story about it. What Itecame of liini? A. — Well, he was missing, and I couldn't tell exactly how loag aftei'wards, it was a mouth or six we<'ks, anyway. Wi found him out back of the Indian village with his throat riK. I ■: ^0 ;,■) mm- WW ;oo 'tii«1i»i 10 20 30 40 50 60 C. E. Hayuor— Diit'ct.) Q. — And wiiB (here au.v i-vidt'nce about liiiu to indicate as to whether he had roniniUted suicide? A. — He had a razor gniHped in his right hand. Q. — Did .vou actually see this with your own eyes? A. — Yes, sir. I did. Q. — I believe you stayed in Sitka longor than any of the «)thers that were detained there? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And that after Marlvetich and the others. I 1m* captain of the "Thornton." the ca|>tain of the "Onward." and their respective mates had left Sitka y(»u still remained? Then it was that Captain Opilvie's body was found? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Why was it tliat you stayed longer than any of the other captains in Sitka? A. — Well, I had a longer sen- tence. Q. — To shorten it. I believe you were sentenced to a tenn of imprisonment without any fine? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And the others to a shorter term with a fine? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Were you present at the trial of the mate, Blake, for instance? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Tell the Commissioners what took place there, just in in a short way? A. — Well, I don't know-- Mr. Bodwell: — I suppose you are no' li.in^, * > prove the record of the conviction, Mr. Warren? Mr. Warren: — I am trying to contrn.:. ; tm . i.ite, Marke- tich when he sjiid the judge called ianu 'roDlxM-s." The Commissioner on the part of the I hited States: — Ask the question directly. Question withdrawn. By Mr. Warren: Q. — W«M'e there any insults heajM'd up«m Blake at his trial so far as you observed? A. — T never heard of any. Q. — IMd the judge taunt or accuse these men as being com- mon criminals? \. — No. sir, he did not. Q. — Were you jiresent at the trial of the mate. Marke- tich? \. — Yes. sir. I was. Q. — Did any such proceedings occur there? \. — No. sir. Q. — .\ny such remarks made? .V. — Xo. sir. Q. — Were tliei'e any comitlaints made by any of the ni!n''s» or ca|»tain8 as ti> (he maniu'r in which (iiey were IcmIi'I (here? .\. — Xo, sir. Q. — Or the words (ha( were used in reference to *'.<'in.'' A. — Xo. sir. I never heard of (hem. Q. — Did you hear the word "robbers" used in the (ii,>";i<' of (he cour(? .\. — I did no(. no such word. Q. — For how long af(er the (rial were the mates nn(i ciij, tains confined? A. — About 15 days. (J. — Tell (he court when' they were confined during that (ime? A. — Well, (hey were in the jury room. Q. — The same room as before? A. — The same room as be- fore. The room was about .10 to .I.T feet long by about !•"> feet wide. Q.— What liberty did (hey have? A.— Well, (hey could go all over (li" lop of (he cour( house, in the c<»ur* rooii. anil all around out around the iwrch, down in (he y; . iu fiic(. anywheres over Si(ka, by going and asking jterin ;• <> ■ of (he miirshal. Q. — Did you ever see any of (liese men ou(side ..1 : i' jiii,' room, or away from (he immediate vicini(y of (he co\iir( house during (iiis (ime of ;iflneme'»f ;if(er (Imt (lrK( sen(ence? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— Where did yt ;l s;i' (heia'' A.— Well. 1 have seen (hem on( in (he s('i'i'( arouiu/ .•]!'. a and in different stores: I couldnM give tin , anie '.»f die stores, who kept (hem. 20 30 ;oi C. E. Ua^iud— IMrott.) Q. — Did you yoursi'lf p) out diHiif; tliiit tiuu"? A. — I did, yes. Q. — W«'re any of you loclvt'd in oi- guiird<>d durin)<; tliat time? A. — Well, there wa8 none of us locked in at all; they had a man up there for a f«'w davH who was supposed to be a guard, but he never stopped us from going anywheres that we wanted to. Q. — After the 15 days had flapsed which you speak of as '^ being the time you believed the other mates and captains served, tell us what occurred, how they were i"«'leased? A. — Well, the marshal released them and they went right away on the steamer to \'ictoria. (J. — Were they released in ttrdei- to take a boat to \'ic- toria, did it not leave the next day? A. — Yes. sir. They were ivleased at the time the steamer was there, so they could take the boat and not be detained in Sitka any longer than possible. Q. — After the sentence of the court was there any differ- ence in the tivatment of the men. both as to the fare that they were given and as to the place where they were allowed to sleep, and as to the bedding thev had? A. — No. sir. none at all. Q. — The same as they had before the sentence of the court? A. — Yes. sir. il. — You remained in Sitka how many days after the others had gone, that is. contineU? A. — Conrtned 15 da vs. Q.— And then you left Sitka? A-— I hft Sitka about 20 days after they did. Q. — It was during this 15 or 20 days that the body of f/aj)- lain Ogilvie was found, was it? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — f'oming back to Ounalaska and the "Carolena"' speci- fically. You say you were aboard the "Carolena" about 7our or six hours after she arrived in Ounalaska. Did you. at that time, see the guns of the "f'arolena" at Ounalaska? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will you tell the Commissioners how you know they were the guns of the "Carolena," how you weiv able to se]*- arate them from the guns of other vessels to distinguish I hem? A. — The guns were all packed, that is. they w»'re all marked with a piece of canvass and the name of the ves- Kcl that they belonged to wrote on them. Q. — How many shot guns did the "Carolena" have? A. — She had four shot guns. Q. — Do you remember the names of any of the hunters? \. — No, sir. I couldn't say that I do. Q. — Do you not remember the name of one hunter? Do you remember the hunter Shields, or did you not know him ^" ill that time? A. — I was not ac()ua)nt(Hl with Shields at that lime. (). — What can you say in regard to whether or not you knew (»f your own knowledge tliat everything was taken off llie "Carolena" when this inventory I showed you yesterday (Kxhibits 12 and 18) was taken? A.— Well. I was in the "♦"arolena," I was aboard the "Cirolena" and I looked down I lie hold at that time and 1 didn't see anything else left tliere; I didn't go down to examine it. Q. — Were you in a position where you could see d«iwn into llie hold of the "Carolena*?" A. — Yes. sir. I was standing •III her deck alongside of the hatch. (i. — When the captain was taking this inventory? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, he took an inventory of the stock of the "San Diego." I believe? A.— Yes. sir. he did. Q. — Was it correct? A. — It was correct, yen. 40 r,o iiiiil 'III l»^ lC!mpq]^|1W III I i^ii lO ;02 ((,'. E. Kii.yiHti'— Dirt'ot.) Q. — I)io you icmember whether or not the ''('andena" had a yawl boat at that time? A. — To the best of my memory, she had a boat. Q. — When do you think you saw the yawl of the 'Tiw'o- lena?" A. — There at Ounalaska. Q. — At the time the inventory was being made? A. — Yes, aboard of the vessel when I went aboard of her, I beli«'ve. Q. — t)n the shore or attached to the boat? A. — It was aboard of the vessel when I w<'nt aboard of her, I believe. 20 Q- — Then you are (pilte positive they had a yawl at that time? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You had no infonnation wliere it came from, of eoni-se. A. — No, sir, I did not. Q. — Since that time, have you seen the "Carolena," cap- tain? A. — No, sir, I have not seen her since that time. Q. — Wore you not in Ounalaska in 1887? A. — No, sir. Q. — Were you taken to Hitka in 1887? A. — I was; yes, sir. 30 Q- — The last you saw of the "Carolena, she was anchored in the harbor at Ounalaska? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In the stream? A. — In the stream — yes, sir. In the bay. Q. — Do you remember the size of the "Carolena" approxi- mately? A. — I should say the "( ■aroleua" was somewhere be- tween 25 and 80 tons. Q. — I believe you have outfitted vessels for sealing at Se attle? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And at San Francisco? A. — Yes, sir. 40 Q. — You have made out your orders for supplies, and have O. K'd the bills before they were paid? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And know the values, cost of an outfit? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — For a white crew? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did yo\i ever use Indians? A. — I did not; no, sir. Q. — \\'hat is your idea of the cost of the maintenance of a white crew per month, consisting of eleven men? A. — Well, the cost would be about between ^S and flO. Q. — Are you speakint; from actual experience, or from 50 what you figure it otit to be now? A. — I am siMJiking from actual experien<'e. Q. — Tliat is the way in which you used to estimate the cost of your voyage? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That would be so much per month per man? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— When you sav from ^8 to ifflO, what do von mean? A.— 18 to fin per month. Q. — For what? A. — For one man. Q— That is the Seattle and San Francisco price? A.— '^ Yes, sir. Q. — You have never outtitled in Victoria? .\. — No, sir. Q- — You have been in the port of Victoria? A. — Yes. sir Q.— Afnny times. T supiioso. aboard a vess<>l? A. — Well, I believe 1 liave been in Victoria aboard a vessel altogether Iliree linu'S. Q— You have been in the harbor of Victoria aboard sail- ing vessels? A.— Three times. 503 (('. K. Kiiviioi— Dimt.) {.I. — ^ (Ml liavc liccii in lliis hiirboi-, iiiid upon a s<'alin'o. sir. i}. — Were you acquainted with the market value of vessels of the style of the "Caroleua" at Seattle in l.SS(i and IHS7. and at San Francisco? A. — I think I was, yes, sir. (i. — What do you think the "f'arolena" would have brought in 188(i or 1H87 on the market, e(|uip|ted and ready for sea? Excluding, of course, her sealing outtlt? A. — Well, I think she would have brought from |1000 to #1200. Q. — What would you think she was worth at that time? A. — Well. I should siiy that that would be a very fair valua- tion of her— from |ilOOO to l||H200. Q.— Do you know of any vessels of the size of the "Caro- leua" being built in 1885 and 188G at San Francisco? A. — Well, the nearest (me I ciin think of is a little schooner called the "Annie" — she was built in 1885. 1 think. ti. — What was her tonnage? A. — Her tonnage was 25. (^ — What did she cost? A. — Well, the owner told me that he paid #1000 for her. Q. — Do you remember the "Inger?" A. — Yes, sir. (i. — What is her tonnage? A. — 25, 1 believe. y. — Do you know who built her? A. — Matthew Turner built her. ti. — Do you (i. — Do yo»i member her. (i. — What was her tonnage? A. — The wime g.— Who built her? A.— Matthew Turner *]. — Ot what place? A. — San Francisco. (i- — Where is his shipyard? A. — His shipyard at that lime was up at what we call Mission t'reek. (i.— Where is it now? A. — In N'euetia. (i- — Xear San Francisco? A. — ^es. sir. y.— What did the "Xargai" cost? A.— |25(I0. ^i- — -^11 ready and eipiipped for sea? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.— In forming your idea of the value of the "Caroleua," wli.n do you base that value upim? A.— 1 base the value lipoii (he prices of a uor— Diioet.) Q— Iii dotiiil? A.— Yes, sir. . (2.— In what vear was Hlie sohl'i A.— I believe it was in 188r» or IHHC)— I eonldn't just tell which. Q.— Do .vou now wlio bought the "Lillie L?" A.— C D Ladd. Q.— The gun man? A.— fes, sir. Q.— Just off Market street? A.— On Turner street. Q.— Was the "Lillie L" a better vessel than the "Carole na," or as good? A.— I should say she was a belter vessel, .\<'S. Q.— Besides being larger? A.— Yes, sir. Q-— When you place a value upon a vessel and speak of lier as e«inipp«'? A.— I should say it was a jtart of the sip, most decidedly. Q. — I call your attintiou to Voucher No. «, Exhibit 10, in the case of the "(.'arolena," and particularly to the second ptige of tlie voucher, and ask yon if after reading that you will tell the Commissioners whetlier you think the articles named in that bill were properly a jmrt of the sliip or a part of tlie sealing outtit? A. — (Examining)— Well, I don't see any- thing in this bill that could jiossibly belong to a sealing out- tit. Two compasses here might belong to a sealing outfit; the rest of it, I should say. belonged to the vessel. Q. — If the compasses were small compasses such as were used in sealing boats, thev would belong to tlie sealing out fit? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — If large compasses, such as are used aboard a vessel, they would belong to the vessel? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And that I suppose you cannot tell? A. — No, sir; tliat I can't tell. Q. — In making your answer, does it make any difference as to whetlier or not these articles are actually made use of before the vessel leaves the port or are carried aboard the 5° sliip as extra sujiplies? And wliat would you say as to whether they constitute a jtart of tlie shij) «)r a part of the sealing outfit? A.— Well, in either case tliey wouldn't con stitute a part of the sealing outfit. Q— I show you Vor.oher No. 12, of this Exhiltit 10, "Caro lena." and Voucher So. 11, Exhibit 10. first directing your at- tention to No. 10, and ask you if that is a i)art of the ship or the sealing outfit? A. — (Examining) — This last article 1 can't make out. Q.— That is 19 reef points? A.— No, sir; that bill be longs to the ship altogetlier. Q. — Now, No. 11? A. — (Examining) — In this bill tliere is 10 yards of No. 3 cotton canvas — that belongs to the ship; al so 6 yards of No. i — that belongs to the ship; 2 balls of twine — that wonld be long to the ship. This rilie, of course, would belong to the sealing outfit, I suppos(>. Q. — Now. if tli.it diu'k was used on the sails, or other re pairs of the sails of tlie vessel, you mean that if used for the 40 60 10 20 30 40 50 60 505 C. E. Kaviioi— Diieet.) Suits of thv sinull boat, of course it would beSoug to tlie seal- ing outfit? A. — Yi'8, si'-. Couldn't use No. 3 duck for 8niall boat sails. Q. — Then you know it lielongs to tlu> sliip? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I believe you saw the sails of tlu> "Carolena" at Ouna- laska? A.— I did. Q. — What condition were they in? A. — Well, the sails were patched a good deal. Q. — Could you tell whether or not that boat had had new spars within the period of a year and a half last past? A. — No, sir, I could not — that is a very hard thing to tell without inspec.ting her spars very closely. Q. — A casual observer of a spar cannot tell whether it is new or old, unless it is buckled or twisted, or very old? A. — No, sir. Q. — Speaking generally, now, and without going into de- tails any further with these vouchers, when j-ou place a value on a ship as being ready to go to sea, you include bills of the nature I have shown you, do you not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I believe you said you knew al>out the tonnage of the "Carolena," that it was somewhere betveen 25 and 80? A. — Yes, sir; between 25 and 'SO tons. Q. — What would you say as to carrying 45 boxes of pilot bread for a sealing cruise of four months or four and a half months, say on the "Carolena?" A. — Well, I should say 1 never heard tell of it being done with white men. Q. — Do you rt>member of seeing the boxes of pilot bread tliat actually came oflf the "Carolena" at Ounalaska? A. — Yes, sir; I seen two tliere. Q. — And do you remember what size they were — wlujther 50 or 25 pound boxes? A. — I think the.y are what we call a 50 pound box. Q. — Would you carry for eleven men on a cruise of four months or four and a half months, 000 pounds of ham and 680 pounds of bacon? A. — No. sir; I should not. Q. — Do you think that a reasonable amount, or unreason- iil)Ie? A. — 1 think it a very unreasonable amount. il. — Would you carry 15 barrels of flour, besides some dozen or l.T siicks? A. — No, sir. Q. — Is that !i reasonable or an unreasonable amount for that number of men and that length of a voyage? A. — I think it is unreasonable. I don't see what they could possi- l>)y do with it. ti.— What was the tonnage of the "San Diego?" A.— Tlie "San Diego's" tonnage, 1 believe, was 3G tons Q. — IIow many men did you have on board? A. — 1 had 1!) men all told. ' (i.— White or Indians? A. — White men. Q. — All white? A. — I had one Chinaman. Q. — For a cook? A. — For a cook. Q. — Did you outfit that boat yourself that year — in 1880? A. — I made out a list of all her stores. Q. — Did you know the cost of everything? A. — I do very nearly. Q. — What would you say to the reasonablenoFS of the sum of iJiS.l 47.55 for a vessel of the size of the "Carolena." ex- • iiisive of the cost of her guns, ammunition and boats, for a voyage of four months, or four months and a half, from Vic- toria to Ilehring Sea and return, carrying eleven men? Mr. Peters:— That question assumes that this wit- ticNH has a knowledge which he has not got. In the first liliice, it assumes that he has a knowledge of what things <ii<-rally losts ho miK'h, an or ^10 a inontli — cannot we make the calculati get at yoiii' id«'a? \. — I can't exactly itemize everything. Q. — (leiierally, you say llour. pork, and so on — what else do you say? A. — I'ork and beef and various canned goods. Q. — You say that SJ.'.OOO of that kind of stuff is unus'asoii able? A.— Yes. I do. Q. — Would you say that |!!»70 of that class of articles was unreasonable? A. — Well. no. I would not say that fitTO was univasonable. Q. — And ^!>.5(».78 would be still less unreasonable, would it not — wo«ld it be a very reasonabh' amount? .\.— Yes, sir, I think that would be a reasoual>l<> amount. Q — . — Now. Captain, if you were fitting up a vessel for sen. to go sealing for the first time, you mighl find yourself launched into a good many expenses which you have not thought of. would you not? .\.— Oh, of course it takes more to fit a vessel for the first time she goes sealing than it does afterwards. Q.— Now. supjiose you had a vessel that had never been usimI in sealing, and you wanted to put her in first class 10 20 507 (('. E. Uaviior — Cross) sliiipc. .vcMi iiii^lit tiiwl .vourHcIf IjiuikIumI into tin rxpfiisc of two or tlii'cc thonwind ilolliirs? A. — Yes. sir. (j. — So that ii Hfiilin^ outfit nii^lit omt !||t2.7-l. '_*.'> an<1 not to lie unroaHonal)!*'? A. — l>o yon ni*-an tlic Nt-alin^; otitlit? Q. — Now, t'aptain, I mean juHt wiiat .von w<'i'<* taili<> — .v(in said you niifjlit In- lann of tliat amount? A. — Well. I mean t»y tliat wliol<> outfit. iM-ovisions. boats, (;nns, aininniiition, and the wliolt' tiiinff. H. — Yon coiild do all for tluit? A. — Yes, sir. H. — How do yon iinow yon could do it for that? A. — Mo- ('aus<> I haA't> dono it. {}. — On >vhat shijis? A. — I have done it on tlic "Alpcr," aiul I hav<* done it also on tlu' "Harrison Lfwis." ii. — >Vh<»!'»' did yon outfit the "Alucr?" A. — San Fran- cisco. (J. — How large was slu'? A. — She was 75 tons. {}. — How many boats did yon lutvc? A. — (! boats. (.1. — What did you ]>ay for them? A. — I paid $*M) apicco for them. ii. — How many guns did you have? A. — 1 had si'vcn shot- ^Miiis and six rifl«>s. Q. — What did you pay for them? .\. — ^4() apiece for tlie sliotgnns. ii. — What did von pav for the ritles? A. — I believe I paid »22.50. Q. — How much ammunition did yon buy?.\. — Well, I can- 30 not jnst exactly say. Q. — How much did yon btiy? A. — T do not think I could tell yon exa<'tly. ii. — Tell ti8 generally, then? A. — Well, for the jwwder 1 might tell yon. ii. — How much did yon buy in that instance? A. — I could tell you very near the i)owdt'r that I bought. I can't say exactly. I think I had about 12 kegs of powder. Q.— At how much a keg? A.— fl. ii. — What powder was that? A. — l)onbl(> F. (}. powder, (j — American iM)wder? A. — Yes. sir. ii. — How much shot did you liave? A. — I can't tell yon. ii. — What did yon pay for it? A., — I can't tell you that citlier. Q. — What else did you have b« sides powder and shot? A. — I had some shells. ti.— Loaded shells? A.— No. sir. Q. — What kind of shells? A. — Hrass sliells^ — empty shells. Q. — And that is all you had as far as you can remember? .^. — I had some wads, some hooks for catching seals, kniv*^ and so on. are all the expensive articles you had? A. — Yes. Q. — And that is what von refer to when von sav you did it for «!2,(tt)0? A.— I did not say— I said I done it for f.S,.f)00, I believe. (i.— That cost yon ^.'^.KOO? A.— I believe that is what I said. ii. — With that amount of ammunition and your provisions, your bill was $'.\.Tm) for ? A.— More than that. Q.— •f.'^ttO? A.— I think perhaps about six or seven hnn- died dollars. 40 60 Wr •i:. -''*' « |. h 5o8 iJiM* Ml (C E. Ua.viioi' — Cross.) Q. — Wt'll, tliat would lii-iiifi: it down into tlif n«'i|;hborIiood «>f $:<,()< M>—f QUO for advanii's would It'avo .vou f8,()UU for tlu; whole tiling;? Now, this was in Han Francist-o, and when? A.— In 1887. Q. — Have you got any account of It? A. — No, sir. I have not. Q. — You did at the time? A. — I did have, lo Q. — And you remember it from that account? A. — I re- member it very nearly. Q. — Now, then captain, going out sealing one year, and coming in, if you want to start out next season, you find a lot of repairs necesnary to your ship, generally, do you not? A. No, sir. I can't say (hat I do tlnd a lot of repairs necessary. Q.— You find some repairs are necessary? A. — Some re- pairs. Q. — Now, you are used to keeping ship's accounts — yon do keep them aboard your own ship, do you not? A. — I do. 20 Q. — Now what account do you charge these repairs to? A. I diarge them to the ship's account. Q. — I know, but do you cahrge them to outfit, or to wliat account? A. — No, sir. I don't charge them to outfit; 1 charge them to ship's acc<)unt. Q. — Do you keep an outfit account? A. — I do, sir — or did when I was outfitting. Q. — You charge them to ship's acount. What do you mean by "ship's accont?" A. — 1 mean the ship's account — anything that is to put her in repairs — fit her for sea. 30 Q. — You make these entries every year, do you, to a separ- ate account? A. — I make them every time that repairs is made. Q. — Charge them to the ship's account? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What other accounts did you keep on board your ship? A. — I keep — for ammunition, general sealing outfit, also ac- counts for advances and wages paid, and so on. Q. — When a ship is first launched, she has all these things, you say? A. — Well, not all of them. Q. — 1 mean, about these vouchers that you have been speaking about, and looking at — vouchers 10 and 11 and the other one — she has them? A. — Yes, sir. She ought to have them to be ready for sen. Q. — Now, then, do you say that these things that you have been referring to, are improjier repairs to be put on a ship before she starts out — anything wrong about them? A. — No, sir, I didn't say they was improper to be put on a ship. I think they belong to the ship. Q. — Now, if the ship was going to remain in port, and not 50 jro out to sea do you think these things would nwessarily be required? A. — No. sir, if slie remained In ]»ort Ihey would not be required. Q. — Now, then, in your exjterience as .. dealer in ships, have you not found that a ship sells in port for just about the same price if she does not have these little repairs on her? A. — No, sir. Q. — How much difference do you make — what percentage of difference? A.— Well, sometimes very little repairs and 60 expense on a vessel when slie is selling will make quite a difference in the selling price of the vessl. For instance, if you take a vessel that is not painted, or . Q. — What difference would there be in her actual value for the purpose of a voyage — wliat percentage of difference? A. —That would be all owing to what repairs you wanted. Q.— Well, these repairs would not have been looked at there— mostly ship chandlery, is it not? A.— Well, it would be the difference in the -. 40 (('. K. Uiiyuur — Cross.) Q. — Now, etiptuin, I do not want to tiik*? you »v«'r till tlM'w* iirtich'B. Htnto K^'nirully — these are mostly ship chandh'ry UD'' simihir articles? A. — Yes, sir. kI. — Now, would she be ninch less valuable for the purposes of the voyage if she did not have these articles on board? A. — There would be the difference In the price of the articles. (2._What did you have to do with the "Llllie L?" A.— 10 1 liad nothing to do with her. Q._Do you not know that there was a large sum of money spent on her after slie was bought at the i)rlce you nu'ntioned? A. — I know there was some money spent on lier. Q.— Oh. a good deal, was there not, captain, you remember? A.— I couldn't say a good deal; I couldn't sny how much. Q.— You know there was some m«ney 8p«>nt on her? A.— 1 know they put a house on to her— that is, we built her up {, littlp — put an extra cabin on to her— and that like. :o Q.—You built the "Alger"— at least you superintended her ( onstnution. What did she cost? A.— The "Alger" cost j;l 0.500. Q.— Where was she built? A.— Seattle. Q._When? A.— She was started in 186<> and launch- ed . Q.— You mean 188«? A.— 1880. Q.— And tlnlshed — ? A.— She was launched about the 24th or 25th of .lanuary In 1887. Q.— Built at Seattle? A.— Yes, sir. 30 Q.— Of Douglas tir? A.— What we call Oregon pine. Q._Hame thing, is it not? A.— Same thing, I sHi)pose, yes. Q. — That is a good wood for building vessels? A. — Yes, tliiit is considered ao. Q.— In fact you do not know of any better, dc vou Captain? A. — Not on this coast. Q.— What did you have to do with the "Ada"? Tlie Commissioner on the jmrt of the TTnited States: — How large was that craft built in Seattle? A. — 75 tons. 40 ou The Commissioner on the part of the United States: liow much? A.— |ilO,i5(tO. Cross-examination continued bv Mr. Bodwell. -Cost Q. — Did that Include her sealing outfit? A. — No, >,.- (i.— What do you know about the "Ada"? A.— Well, I ('xaniini»d the "Ada." (i.— Where, in N'ictoria? A.— In Seattle and Port Town- HC'.d. i.i. — A ' r she came round from Shanghai? A. — Yes, sir. ''l — ' ^ you know that they were offered flO.OOO for her in Victoria, and refnsed it? A. — I do not. Mr. Wari-en: — If the court please, J ii.ked the witness iil>out the "Ada" if she was brought down from Sitka, and otferi>d for sale in Seattle. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It }{8 to show his knowledge of the market. .Ml'. Warren: — I do n«)t obje«'t to the (question because it is 'Irawing out incomi>etent testimony, but because i'ounsel was < oiifusiiitr witness about the fact he was examined about be- fore Cross-examination continued bv Mr. Bodwell; ml m M ii .1:!! . ■ „, 1 iiF '1: I',' ',■'!■ m!: I !l|, i; :y': .Miiii [ ; '^r-jJilii:! ^^ ' I Hi '\mv 10 30 .-^o 40 50 60 510 («', K. llii,v»«»r— Cross.) Q.— I>i toiiH. Q. — How i-i),'j,'e(l ? A. — Hilioi.iier ri>;>{«'<'- (i.— Klie was built in Han FnmciHfo? A. — Itnilt in .San FraneiHco. (i. — How do voii liuaw wiiat slie rowl ? A. — \\('ll, 1 was told bv liei bniUlei-H what nIic rost. Q. — NViien was nhe built ? A. — She was built in to be built in 1ST!), aiul or at wuN launched A. — ^'eH. sir. fuHtened. do vuu know? Cupper faHten A. — She WUH copper fasteneil up to hei leuHt. waH 8tart«'d earl.v in lH,so. (i.— And Hhe cost |iL'.r>()(»? (i. — How was hIu «*d, or ordinary.* bendn. Q. — Copper paint? A. — The bott«uu was copper painle*!. {}. — She was a rathei- cheap idiip. waH she not? A. — I do not know that she was any chcajier than any other vessel built at that time. Q.— Tell mo another? sister vessel to her. Q. — Huilt at tlie sjinie yard? A. — There was the "Onward," a sir. another? A. — 1 for the ])urpose of >n thinkin); of this .—I can't think of A.— Yes, (i. — At the same time? A. — Vos, sir. Q. — That is not a comparison, tell mt don't renHMiiber. Q. — Can you tell me of another vessel of that size, in those years, that was built fiu' any such price? A. — I can't now. 8ir, no. (J. — You have been thinking this o frivinjx your evidence here. You ha' valuation for some ti»ne. have you n any other. Q. — You know those people lost money on that contract, do you not? ,\. — I never heard them say they did. Q. — Did you ever ask tliem? A. — I never asked them. no. Q. — How lonj; wi-re they in business? Are they in busi ness now? A. — Yes. sir. they are in business now. (i. — How did they ciaae to take that contract for that price, if you know? A. — I don't know. 1 suppose they took it the same as they w<»uld any other contract. Q. — In fact, yon do not kn<»w any of the s|M'cial circum stances that surround the building of thesi two vessels, do A. — She Wiis ' Carolena"? 1 think Have room yon? .\. — Xo, sir. Q. — \Yhat vas the "Carolena" built built of fir, I think, Orejfon i>ine, (i.— And she was .'{.") tens? A.— The she was iM'tween 2!") and .'{(( tons. Q. — Now, Captain, do you know lu-r exact tonnufje? y(»u not been told it? A. — I have heard here in this since I have been here that she was 27 tons. I believe. (J. — l)i("i yvc cull iiii Kiiliiiii tlHliiii^ Ixmt. ii. — llow (lid voii roiiif to know tiiivlliiiiK ahoiil It? A. — ItctiiuH*' I Hct'ii Ih I' )i K*>*>*i iitaii.v tiiiifH. m-cii lit-r iu Haii Fruii- ilsco, ."«i>w lit'!' ill Silka. (i. — Did vou { vcr no to m-a in hi-r? A. — 1 did not. 10 20 30 Q. — Know an.vltod.v flm- that did? A. — Ych, mIi-. I km-w several. Q.— What did hIic toHl? .\.— Tiu' owner and captain «>f lier (old Die lie paid $I.IMM) for her, Q. — How niu'h was her tonna^**'.' A. — iT) tonH. (}.— Now. do vou nav that a vesHel of that kind could be Imilt for »I.(MI(» fitted for nea? A.— Well. I think the cost of the vessel probalilv was more when she waH built. ii. — You would not >iive it as \oiii' opinion here now, cajt- lain. and state it on your oath that vou think a vessel of iliat kind in fair condiiion of repair <-ould be built for fl,(H)t)? \. — No. I wouMii't. iy — .\nd if she sold for that, there must have been some special reas(Ui wh.v her value was run down bo much? A. — I suppose there was some reas,'er"' J carried :'A men. t^.— How iiuich poik '_'l> a Imrrel for perl;. <2- — Have you any recollection aliout that now. or are y«»u insi iiiakiii)!: an estin.ite? A. — I am just making an esti- Mialc. as ileal as 1 oin remenibe''. ^i- — I want to know how near it is, what do you remember :il"iiiiit it. wIkuu did vou Ituv it oft? -I boiii'hr it off a liMlclier in Seattle; I couldn't t«>ll you his name now. (i. — Do you think you are within a d speakini,' of 1888. Q. — And you paid h cents a pound for sufjar? A. — Some- where about that. 1 cannot sav what I did pav a poimd for it. Q. — Do you know what the price of sugar was in Victoria at thai time? A — I do not know. (J. — Would you he surprised to hear it was 8 cents a pound? A. — Well, I do not know as I would be surprised. Q. — Now, what other provisions did you have? A. — I had potatoes. Q. — What potatoes did you have? A. — I believe when I left Seattle I had three tons of potatoes. Q. — What did the potatoes cost you? A. — I cannot say. Q. — Can you 'ell us what other provisions you had? A. — I had bt»ef, mutton, fruits, milk — Q. — How much beef did you have? A. — I had four cases of beef. Q. — What did it cost you? A. — I cannot say. Q. — How mudi mutton did you have? A. — Four cases. Q. — What did that cost you? A. — I cannot tell you what anything cost nu> individually. Q. — You don't pretend to say, then? \. — No, sir. Q. — Do yon know how much jtreservcil fruits and things of that kind vou had? A. — Yes. I know the number of cases 1 had. Q. — How many? A. — I had three citses of table fruit and four cases of pie fruit. Q.— What did that cost? .\.— I cannot tell you what it cost separately. Q. — What else did you have? A. — I had four cases of string beans and four cas(>s of corn. Q. — You do not know what that cost? A. — No, sir. Q. — Wh.Tt else had you? A. — I had some raisins and ])lums, and various tilings. Q. — And you do not know what (hese cost? A. — No, sir; I cannot tell you what any one article cost by itself, Q. — What was the toal amount of your provision bill? A. — The total amount of my ])rovision bill was about ^il.noo. Q. — You say "about'' — are you within two or three liun dred dollars of tlu> amount? A. — Yes, sir, 1 am within otic hundivd dollars one wav or the other. Q.— It might be |i1. «»f what you sometinies pay is f!> sometimes fS, and sometimes ^1(1 per moiitli per man? A. — Between thet'o figures: yes, sir. Q. — You eannot eouie any eloser than to say it is from !?8 toflO? A.— No, sir, I cannot. Q. — Which do you say liappens tlu' often«'st in your expe- rience. fS or flO a man? A. — Well, I tliink I And it happens tlie often«'st about $!) a man. Q. — Tell me hov* you made your average? W^hat cnlcu- liition did you go through? A. — I do not know that I went llirough any. Q. — W'hen did you omie to the conclusion that it cost from $S to ^10 per man? A. — \Vell, I was figuring on these things when I was sealing. Q. — How did you get at it then? Did you know it the jO first year you were sealing? A. — I mad«' a calculation on it tlu' first year. yes. Q. — How did you get at it? A. — I supj)ose I worked it Mit by figures. Q.— Did you or did you not? A.— 1 think I did. Q._When? A -Well, at dilTerent tinn's. Q. — fiive us one instance when von did it? A. — I figured out the cost in ISSG and also in 1SS7. Q.- Wluit did you do it for? A.— I did it for my own satisfaction. Q.— Have you got any of these figures? A. — No, sir, I liave not. (i.— What reason liad you for preparing if then? .\. — Ti do not know that I had any particular reason. A man natu rally does a number of things like that at different times. (i.— You say that that amount of Hour on board the "Caro- li'iia" was excessive? A. — Yes. sir, I think it was. (i.— How many j)ounds of flour do you allow to a man for one mouth? A. — I do not know that I could tell y<»u ex- actly. Q.— You nmke bread i.i loaves on board ship? Can you tell MIC how much flour \> did be put into a l(»af? A. — I am not a cook, sir — I ai!< m< t putting Hour into loaves of bread. 1 always figured on ihc basis for my crew wlien I luid 24 men. on about a barrel or a barrel and a lialf of flour u month. (i. — To each man? A. — No, sir, to the ship's cr«'w. (i.— For how long a voyag«'? A.— Ft»r eiglit months' voy- ilge. t^.— What do you include in tiie sealing outfit? A. — In the sealing outfit? (i— Yes. A. — I include the boats, guns, ammunition, lidoks for ]>icking up seals with, oars, rowhtcks. sails, masts, Imhiuis, skinning knives, ripping kni\es, wads for tiu' guns, stii'ls for sharpening knives, salt for salting skins. I be- lieve I have mentioned all. 40 Co m % if )3 ■M |!:|I,j m l\'\ (il 'll|l||iii lO 20 40 50 60 5'4 (<'. K. KitviKir — Cioss.) Q. — Would \(»n nol waul Iniiks? A. — TaiikH for soaliiij,' outfit? il. — Vi's. A. — 1 w(»ul. Q. — When you were in Sitka after the trial and before, there was a difference as to the manner in which you were treated, was there not? ,.\. — Well, there was this differ ence then, that we wei'e in the jury room and we were not- supposed — (i. — Did you ha'c a uiiard over you? The ("oniHiissioner cm the j)ar( of tlie I'niled Slates: — Let him answer the (piesiion. Mr. ltodw<>ll. Mr. Hodwcll: — lie i.-< taking a huig time, your Honour, to give whal is nol an answer to my question, and I do not want to exienti this thing beyond all reason. The witness: — There was a ditt'erence in thia way — Mr. Modwell: — 1 can slop him now, your Honour, because he says there is a difference, and that is what I asked him. The Commissiiuier on liie pjM I of the I'niled States:— That answers the tpieslion. Mr. Hodwell:— Now. then, did you have a guard over you bef«tre the trial? .\.— No, sir. (^._\Vere you locked in at night after the trial? A.— No, sir. y. — The door was never locked? .\. — No, sir. H. — Did a guard «lay there at nighl? A. — Yes, sir. y. — Was the guard armed? .\, — He was not. (i.— When you went out. did the guard go with you? A.— No, sii'. (i.— Who did? .\.— Nobody. y. — Who went out? .\.— 1 went out myself. Q.— Anyl-ody else willi you? A.— In fai;l they all went out, 13 515 (C. K. Hiiyiior — Cross.) Q. — You had to get lisivc? A. — I had to ask the marshal, and by asking the marshal we could mt out. Q. — I>id you have a li};lit at uifjht? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Did you sleep on the lloor? A. — We slept on a mat- tress on the tloor, yes. sir. (J. — You say yon had frt'sh meat — you mean venison, do you? A. — I meiin venison, and sometimes beef. Q. — How often did yon have beef? A. — I think probably t\vi> or three times a week. Sometimes they tould not get fresh bwf in Sitka. , ' g.— Was this In ISSO? A.— Yes, sir. (). — Were you not imprisoned afterwards in another year? \. — Xo, sir. Q. — Yon were not there any other year? \. — I was there in 1S87, but I was not imprisoned at all. Q. — What were you doing there in 1HS7? .\. — .Insr called in. The vessel was seized. 20 Q. — You were detained (here in 1H87? .\. — I was detain- 1(1 there until after the trial; that is, I was not detained, but I stayed there on my own aecoi-d. Q. — Don'l you think you have your recolleetion a little iiii.xed between 18S7 and" 18HS? .\'.— No. sir. I have not. (J. — How long were you there in 1H87? .\. — I cannot say just how long I was there. I was (|uiie a while there, be- (iinse after the trial they bonded the vessel, and it took me some time to get the bond made out. Q. — How many guns had the "Thornton"' that yo\i saw? '' The "ommissioner on the part of the Vnited States: — Are voa asking about the "Thornton " now? .Mr. Hodwell: — The witness said the g>ins were all ticketed, iind I asked him how nuiny guns wer<' ticketed that he saw (111 tl Thornton." The ('ontniissioner on the jiart of the rnitcd States: — You i'.re doing this for the purpose of testing his memory? ,|0 -Ml'. Kodwell: — '\' }(>iir Honour. To witness: — How many guns wci ■ ticketed that you saw iM'ionging to the "Thornton?" A —In tlie "Tliornton. ' I liclieve, there were four shotguns. il — How many belonging to the "Onwaid?" A. — I don't iliink she had but one shotgun and one rille. ii. — How nmny rilles on tlie "Thornton?" .V. — I tannot say. I do not remember seeing any rifles on the "Thorn Ion," (i — How many rilles on the "Carolena?" .\. — There were four. Q. — Four ritles and four shotguns? .\. — Yes. siiv Q. — Hid you see the yawl? .\. — To the best of my mem- "ty there was a yawl. ? A. — I ^° anything that was on that ship that is included in this in- ventory? A. — There were boats, and pans, and tinware, and one thing or another. Q. — How do you remember as to th«' provisions and re- member nothing else? A. — I naturally took more notice of the provisions than I would of anything else. Q. — \Yhy was that? A. — \Yell, it is a natural thing for a person to do that, and for a s(>afaring man especially. Q. — And all the provisions they had on Itoard, you would have us believe, weri' the biscuits and the flour? A. — That ^'^ is iill I saw. i-l. — As a matter of fact, do you think for a minut*' that that was all the provisions they hud on board when they came into port, do you? A. — I don't think about it as I know of, that is all I saw there. Q. — Don't you know that there were six boxes of jdlot bread as a matter of fact shipped im board the "^t. Paul?" A. — I do not, sir. (i. — Would you be very much surprised to hear there were? A. — I do not know as I should be much surprised ■^ at anything. y. — That is to say you would not be surprised to find that aujount of bread on board the "('arolena'/" A. — Yes, sir, I think I should. (i- — That is i were in tow of the cutter nt the time she was seized? A.— N*o, sir, I was not. Q- — Were you seized before or after? A. — I was seized Itcfore. Q— Vou were in Ounalaska when she came in? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— The "Carolena" was seized nt lfift:10 west hmgitnde iind tt:,m north latitude. That is (he position. Now. how 50 rxi 8- U ■r' H ;nr nM m WW 518 'lil'll IIP 10 20 30 ((.'. E. Hiivnor — Cross.) long would it taki- her to ronu' to OunaluHka in tow of the cutter from that poHition? A. — Well, tliat would all de- IM'ud on cifcunistaiHes. Q. — I know, but I ask von under ordinary cireunistances? A. — If the cutter came right straight along with her I sup- |ios<> it would take her about \'2 or 14 hours. Q. — And she being seized on the 1st August she would be in Ounalaska some tinu' on the 2nd? A. — Yes. Q. — And you say this inventory was taken two or three days after the "t'arolena" arrived in port? A. — Yes. sir; that is the best of my memory now. Q. — That is the best memory you have, is it? A. — Two or three days, or it miglit have been five or six days. Q. — Well, I want to know. I want to see what your mem orv is. Was it two or three days, or was it five or six days? A. — I cannot say; I did not give any certain day — approxi mately. Q. — Kut you were ready a niinuti' ago to give a certain day? A. — I said two or three days, but it might have been longer. (j. — IJut two or three days is your re<'ollection? A. — Yes. sir; two or three days or more; it might have been less — I do not know. Q. — Was it more or was it less? What is your memory? That is all I want? A.— I cannot tell exactly. Q. — ITave you no memory about it then? A. — Certainl.. I have a nu'mory about it. 1 seen it done. Q. — And you fix it at two or three days? A. — Yes. sir; that is what I said. Q. — Will yon look at the l.'ist page of that inventory and tell us what day it is dated on? llr. Warren: — I sulmiif that the witness cannot be asked to tell if that is the date of the inventory. lie is not com petent to do so. Mr. Bod well: — The witness is competent to tell what is the date at the foot of that inventory. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — You could read it yourself; that is not an original pajter. Mr. Rodwell: — I do not know that I am obliged to, ;.(iu' Honour. I think I have the ritiht to ask the witness to read it. Mr. Warren:— Thai is the receipt of the marshal. That is the date of the receipt and not the date of the inventory. 50 Mr. Hodwell to witness.— That date at the bottom of that page of Kxhibil V2. (I. V... is the 14th of August, lH8fi; that is the date that you see there? .\. — Yes. Q. — Will you swear thar was not the date on which the inventory was taken? .\. — Well. I cannot swear to that. I say tliat I do not know exactly. Q.— Will you swear that at tliat date the "St. Panl" was in Ounalaskii? .\. — On the 14th .\ugnst? Q. — Yes. on the 14th .\ugust? .\. — No, sir, I cannot swear 60 tliiit even. Q. — Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that slu' had left bi'fore that date? A. — \o. I do not know as a matter of fact. Q. — You were there when she did leave? .\. — I was. Q. — Did you keep a log? A. — I d'd not. Q. — How many men did you take in th(> "San Diego" from Ounalaska to Sitka? A.— I believe I had 2.5. Q. — .\nd she was ;> vessel of how many tons? .\. — .T' tons. 40 10 20 ;'9 ((.'. E. Uaynor — <'r(>sH — ICf-diicct.) Q. — Uow inufh cuhin room ha«l shf? What was tlu* size of her cabin? A. — The fabin was 12 tV 't long. Q. — And these men had all to sleep in that cabin and live thei"e? A. — No. sir. Q. — Where did they >;<>"' •^- — '•'•'•' Indians slept and the greater part of the men slept in the vessel's hold the same as they did aboard their own vessel. Q. — How nmny had yon in the cabin? A. — 1 cannot ii\\*' the exact number without recalling the names to mind. H. — K or 1(( or 12? A. — No. sir. about four or tive. Q.— The "San Diego" did leak, did she not? A.— She leaked about tfie same as all other vessels. Q.— Is it not so that slu' was leaking water on that trip? .\. — I suppose she would make four barrels a day in 24 liours, no more than that. Q. — How long were yon making the trip? A. — 1 was 12 days. ti. — When y<»u s|M>ak of the bedding the men had in the court house at Sitka you refer to their blankets, don't you? .v. — I referred to their blankets and mattresses. y. — Did they all have mattresses? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Had Marketich one? To my recollection he had one. If he had one on board tli<' vessel he had one up there. Q. — Von don't kn«»w whether he had one on board the ves sel or not? A. — No. sir. but I naturally sui)p<»se he had. Q. — Yon are just giving us that sort of evidence as to what ^0 .vou naturally sn)>]K)se. as a matter of fact, yon have no re collection about it? A. — I have !i n'colledion. they had a blanket. Q. — Did Marketich have one? A. — I believe he did. i}. — Were you one of the parties who went out after Ogilvie or did you find him? A. — I never went out to find him anywhere. (i. — Yoti said "we" found him — you don't mean you were there? A. — If I sjiid "we" found liim I made a mistake. I was there after he was found. He was found by two little 40 Indian boys. mber. I cannot exactly place the date. Q. — You w«'r(« not taken into Ounalaska? A. — In 1887 we \v<'re taken into Ounalaska, but I think we only lay there two or three days; it was a very short time. Q. — When you speak of the trial at Sitka in 1887, ,>ou speak of the trial of the vessel and not of your own trial? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You were not tried in 1887? A. — No, sir; it was the trial of the vessel. Q. — Did you see any provisions taken off the "Carolena" and juit on the "St. I'siul?' A.— I did not. Q. — Did you see any provisions taken off any of the vessels and put on the "St. I'aul?" A. — No, sir. Q. — Some of the provisions of the Onward were taken on board the "San Diego?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You remembei' that? A. — Y<'S, sir. Q. — And you could distinguish them from the provisions that was on board the "Carolena?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — About the datt! of this inventory, yon do not kn(»w when the marshal signed his receipt from Lieut. Cantwell for the gc»ods did you? A. — No, sir. Q. — You did not have anything to do with that? A. — No, sir. Q. — YoH wer<> not there when it was done? A. — No, sir. Q. — You are speaking of your recollection as to when the inventory was taken? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — The inventory was taken at Ounalaska, of conree? A. — Yes, sir. 521 (<'. K. Uavnor — Uc-din-ct — Kt'-ci-oss.) Q. — When you told of <_'apt. OKilvie bciuf; fo"u(l biu-k «>f Ihc Indian vilhigo and the Hurgcon turning him over, was that a n'Hidcnt ph.vHician? A. — It was the rcwidont phvHician of Sitka. (i. — Two little Indian bo.vs «*anii' in and reported they had found the dead man and .vou with several (tthers went out? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You saw him in the original spot in which he was ■" found? Yes, sir. Q. — And in the sam<' position as far as you believe? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — It was not in the woods, was it? A. — Well, it was in Ihe woods, it was in a patch of alder bush. Q. — There is another question which I forgot to ask in di- rect examination. Do you know whether any of the oth- ers paid fines or not? A. — They did not. Q. — They were discharged of their fines were they not? A. 20 --Yes, sir. Mr. Bodwell: — That question was not asked in examina- tion in chief and I presume I have a right to cross-examine about it. Mr. Warren: — Yes, I stated that. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Bodwell: Q. — How do you know that none of the others paid a fine? A. — I know by what they told me and and I know by when ,Q they were brought before the Judge and the fines remitted. Q. — The fines were remitted ? A. — Yes, air. Q.— When did that happen? A —It happened in 1880 when we were discharged. Q. — You remember that distinctly do you? A. — I remem- ber it. Some of them wanted to go away on the steamer. Q. — They were brought in open Court? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Before the Judge? .\. — Yea, sir. Q. — And the 'lues ^yere remitted? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Who was there at that time and what fines were re- mitted? A. — Well (he captains of the schooners and the inatea, that is C'apt. Monroe and the captain of the Thorn- ton. I forget his name. Q.— And the mate of the 'Thjrnton?" A.— The mate of Uie "Thornton. Q. — And the captain of the "Onward?" A. — The captain of the 'Onward." Q.— .\nd the mate of the "Onwacd?" A. — Yes, sir. Q.— And the mate of the "('arolena?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — All these were present at one time? A. — No, sir, I 50 believe the mate of (lie "Onward" was discharged first. He waa discharged some four or five days before. Q.— Were you there when the mate of the "Onward" w.is discharged? A. — I was there, yes. Q. — Were you in court when the mate of the "Thornton" was discharged and his fine remitted in open court? A. — I was. Q.— What was the name of the mate of the "Thoniton"? \. — I cannot recoll«>ct his name. Q. — Was it Harry Norman? A. — I do not know, I cannot say. (i— Would you knov.' he was the mate of the "Thornton"? A. — Yea, I know the mate of the "Thornton" was there. Q. — Did you say how long after the sentence nnder which yon were imprisoned this waa? Mr. Dickinson: — He waa not imprisoned. Mr. Bodwell: — The record says he was imprisoned and I nin going by that. 40 60 1 1 III ill ' ,'(5 |i (J I i|5' i; as • ''"l'.' * l'»mm K^inrii^iTii ■mv- lO 20 30 40 50 $2i (i\ K. Ittiynor — Ht* (1-088.) Tht' witiu'MH:^l»o you unk in»' how lonji it \\;\h sifter the sentence? Mr. Flodwell:— YeH. The witness: — I believe it was about 15 dn.vs. Tliis eloHed tlie exaniination of tlie witnens. Mr. IMi-liinHon: — I desire to call the attention of the Pom- niissioners to pan*' <»- of the tinal print of the rejwrt of this ease where there is ftiven an extract from one of the d«M'n ments — printed I think in the Itritish case — of what purports to be the Revised Statutes of the I'nited Htattw. 1 have ex- amined these sections that are printed, and I And some of the statutes are obsolete. The.v are not a correct presentation of ihe I'nited States hiw, as for instance: The judiciary of Alaska or the territorial (joverninent had not be<'n orjjanized at the time, no courts had been established. Anttther material chanf<;e is that the intention of the provisions for the protec tion of the seal tisheries had been legislatively extended; the intention had been declared by the ('(m^ress of the I'nited States to apply to all the waters of the Hehrinjj Sea in effect. What I rose more particularly for was to call the attention of the court to the publication of the statutes in the record as part of the evidence, and lo suRRest that the Commissioners [H'rmit us (m both sides, when it bectnnes material to show the law on either side, to refer to the au- thoritative publications of both cw'ards of 17 years; and prior t<» the .sei/.iires of last summer, but a single infnictiap 30 is known to have occurred." Then in that particular letter the very statute which Mr. Dickinson states to have been obsolete is set out as the stat- ute then in force. I'nder those ciroumstances. if .Mr. Dick- inson claims that there are any other statutes that i|ualify, alter, or change these statutes, so as to brinp some n«'W point to the notice of this conimissicm. it is (mly proper that he should brin^ that to our attention. The ('(mimissioner on the part of the I'nited Slates: — Will 40 that be brouglit out before the evidence is closi'd or in ihe course of the argument? Mr. Peters: — I should think it should be fair t » have 't before the evidence is closed. I do not say that it need no down on the netes of this Commission. The Commissioner on Ihe part i coun.sel discuss the nialter. There iiiifflit be laws that I may know nothinfr about, and I would not take judicial notice of them because I could not be suj»- posed to have knowledff*' <>f them. Therefoic. it would lie advantageous, if there should be .some way of brinsjiu'.; such statutes as are claimed to have j>ertinence, before the attt-n- tion of the Coiivl, at a time when we would have the advant- iijje of hearinji the observations of counsel iipim them. Other- wise. I for one. would feel entirely at sea uii(m the nialter. Mr. Dickinson: — Wo are at sea ourselves very larir Iv as lo llie meaning of the I'nited States statutes, your Honour. I tliink it was Lord Mansfield who said- Ood forbid he should not know the < "oninuni L.iw. and tiod forbid he sliouM know the statute law of Kngland." 60 i ■ii 1.1 1 4 iM!H m .-5 !;;• 'rv 1 ilh'niii ■I'll ''It'tt'ii lO 20 30 40 524 ((' K. Hii.viKtr— Uci'hIUmI— Diifct.) Th«> ('oniiiiiHNioiu-i- on the piiit of (In- I'liitcd StaU's— h Im n«>f nt'ccHHiirv Unit tlic.v Hhoiihl lit' provt'd iih thi' Hliituti-H jiidI luwB of fort'iftn roiintrifH iiro pr(»vi' jndiciar^v of .■\la8li(-lrred to in this correspondence. The judicial <'oiistructi(ni of the federal statutes by the Courts of Alaska, and the I'nited States was: "Thct the United States had jurisdiction over the waters of itehring Sea." Sir (!. H. Tapper: — That is a report of a committee of the Privy Council of November the 27th, lH8fi. Mr. Dickinson: — That is it. Sir C. H. Tupper: — You refer to the whole of that leport. Mr. Dickinson: — Yes, to the report of the committee of xV.'^ Privy Council. The Commissioners then took a recess. Mr. Dickinson: — I desire to recall, if the Commissioneis please, Captain Raynor. with reference to a (jnestion which has been omitted as to his catch in the Hehring Sea. 50 Capt. Rayner: — A witness already examined on the of the United States, was recalled. Examined by Mr. >VaiTen. 60 part Q. — Capt. Raynor. witliout detailing the vessels or the par- ticular seasons, just tel' 'he Commissioners how many years you have hunted in Itehring Sea? A. — Three years ii; Heli- ring Sea. Q. — I believe that you stated that you were first there in the year 1S8(>? A.— It was in IH«1.' I believe 1 ^aid vcs- terday that it was lS8t» but it should be in IS81. Q. — What years were you in there; did you mean three years outside of 1881, or was 1881 included? A. — I mi>an three vears hunting in there exclusivelv for seals; that was 1886. Q. — What part of the Sea did you hunt in in these various years? A. — No particular part; any where I found seals. Q. — Did you ^ro sometimes to tile westward of the Pribyloff Islands? A. — Yes, some times to the westwird and some times to the eastward. 10 5»5 (<'. K. K.i.viior— Ucnillcd— IMrt'tt.) (i.— T«» tin* noitli? A.— No, (lie uoitluMiut t-nd not tlu- iiortli t'XHftl.v. Q. — And to the Hoiidi? A. — Yi-t' Q. — From your «'X|»fri»'iu»' in the Hen will .vou Mlnte wiu'th- IT ,von did rtnd. in !MK71S!sH. tluit tin- hciiIk were to Ix* found in th" mini*' piticc that ,voii had found them in 1N84>? A. — No, sii'; th»'.v wert' not; I ncvn- found 8u»c»'8Kiv»' yvum that I t'ountl HcalH in tlx* Hani«> plar**. (J. — In looking foi- Hi-alH out tli<>i(> you liav** to takt' your x'HHcl around vaiiour* partH of tlu* (mmi to roinc acroHH a ImuwIi of Bt-alH? A. — Y«'H. 20 ^O 40 60 liffdH, not ? do you? Tlu'V arc A. — MoHtly; I found Q. — You do not hunt wals in found in Huiall lumt-hrH arc they llu'Ui by two or throe at a time. Q. — Then' In no nurii thin); at* running a<-ro8H tlioUHandH of Ht'alM and ttein}; al)U> to kill any number of them in a Hhort time? A. — \o. Hir, I never ftnind it ho. Q. — Seals are liutited Individually more than t'ollectlvely. are they not? A. — ^'eH, Mir. Q. — And they are found in buneheH of two and three and of l)uneli(>H of ten and eleven together? A. — Scmietimes you Hee them in large buneheH. (i. — Hut they are generally awake and you cannot get to thcni. They have what we call lookoutH and are on the guard when in lierdN. Q. — When seals arc awake it is harder to approach tliera and of courfc harder to kill them? A.--Yes, sir. Q. — The iimjorlty of Hcaln are nliot when they arc asleep, arc they? A. — Yes. Hir. Q. — Now. to enter into the matter of taking seals, what arc the conditions which would modify the number which can be killed? A.— Well, the state of the weather. If it is raining or stnmg winds or anything of that kind, the seals do not sleei> very w«'ll. And in a strong brwze of wind you cannot get on to them. (.1. — Do they scent you? A. — !f you get to the windward of a seal they scent you at n long distance. Q. — For that reason it is better to approach the seals from the lee side? A. — Yes. from the leeward when the wind is blowing fiiun the seal to the hunter. Q. — What other condition modities the result when seal hunting? A. — Well, a great deal depends on how the hunt- er decides to get at the seal. (■i. — Does the exiM'Hence n ill tlie Behring Sea l»ef«)re. Q. — Sealing? A. — Nor never did any st>iiling there as far as I know. (i. — The (|uestion as lo wlietlier or not there are several vessels in a good locality, has that anything to do with the result.' A. — Yes. sir. of course, the more boats there are around either with shooting or with siH'urs, it wakes the seals and keeps them moving and .>ou would not get as many as if you were alone. Q. — A seal can travel faster than a man i«Mild row in a lioat or that a canoe could paddle? A. — Yes, sir, « II s 1 lis iim. m^ !ff', |i;'V|l!|)!^ :i,li: ■mv 10 3« r. K. IJavn.or— Hf'iitlhMl— I'iiccl— rioss.) (i. — Aiv i'vi'ii fNtcr tliiiii an ordiiiiirv vcshcI witli iiii onliii- arv wind could ti'av«'l after tlit-m? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And thcv ((uild Ivct'i* ui> lliat rapidity of niovciucnt for such a lonj; tiuic as to <'sca|)(' llu-ir piirsucrs, could tlii'v not? A. — Yes. Hir. il. — Have you observed wlial the seals feed upiui? A. — Y'es. sir, they feed most upon tish and stpiids and shi-inips in different localities. Q. — These tish travel fioni one part of the sea to the other in the same season? A.— No, sir, the tish shifts and also the seals shift with them. Q. — That is what 1 asked you. I asked if they travel after the fish? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Froi!i your exjierience of your three years in I he Behrius; Sea do you think that you would l>e able to esti mate the number of skins that a vessel would take in tfie year IH.h" ^oinj; in'to Itehrinj; Sea? 20 Mr. Modwell: — That <|ueslion, was. I think, ruled otit be fore. I think I put a similar (|U(-ston to one of oui' witness(>s and after some considei-ation it was ruled out. Mr. ^^■arrlIl: — I aslcd tiiis (|ui'sti years in Itehrin^; Sea, do you think you would be able to estimate the number of skins that a vessel woiild take in the year ISS" goinji into the Hehrinp; Sea, and carry- injr a fair number of boats? \. — No. sir, 1 do not. t'ross-examination by .Mi-. Hodwell: Q. — You were out in the nehriufj; Sea in \HHii for the tirst tinu'? .\. — For the first time sealinji. that is for the first time sealinji direct. l^. — Ft was the tirst time you went into tlie Itehrin^; Sea wasn't it? A. — No, sir. Q, — The first time you went into Hehrin^ Sea sealinji? A. — I went in there sealing; liefore. but not sealin;; altopether. I had iM'en in, sealing and oitei- hunting: before. li.— When? A.— In 1SS1, ISSL' and 1SS:{. H. — In what schooner? .\. — In the "Otter.'" ti. — You went there si'aliu}:? .\. — Yes. sir. otter huntiii}; and seals. H. — IMd yi>u ffet many seals? .\. — No, sir, we did not. (I. — Your |U'!nci])al liusiness was otter huntiii;;? .\. — Yes, sir, for a part of the time. Q. — You onl,\" took seals l)ecause you iiappened to run across them? .\. — No. sir. we iinnled seals foi about six weeks, and made it a busiiu'ss. Q. — Were you captain of tiie vessel? .\. — No. sir, 1 was sailing: master, t'aptain Littlejohn was the captain. ii. — \\'here did you tin in ISSti. what part of the sea? .\. — Well, I was in \aiious places. Q. — Where did you ^d (irst? .\. — Tiie first tinu- I went to Tniinak Pass, and northeast to the St. Paul Islands. (2. — How far? .\. — I was alioul tweutyf(mr miles off tiic islands. (.y — Had you been there for seals before? .\. — Yes. sir. ii. — Hid you find them? .\. — Yes. sir. I did. (i.— Hid you find liiem in ISStl? .\.— \<'rv few. (.y — Hid you tind .seal wiicre umi found them liefore? .\. — Some. H. — That was tiie first position, and now wiiere was your second position? .V. — Wi-li. I went all over the {{round be tween the I'ribylolf and Aleutian Islands. iy — Within what distance east and west, witliih what de •irees of liiiijjitiidc? .\.~l ically cannot tell tiie d<'frr''i'x •'f lonitifiide 40 !!o Co 10 20 30 40 ((' K. IJiiyiKir — Hci'iilU-d — ("kims.) y. — Did ^vou k«'ep u log? A. — Xo, sir. I did not Iteep a log. y. — You weiv luastiT of the veHHcl? A. — V»'8. .sir. Q. — Cau you givo us an idea, suppose you drew a strainhf line down from tiie I'ribvIotT Islands to tlic Aleutian Islands I understand .you to say that your tirst ])osition was longitude 175 and latitude 57? A. — Yes, near to Bogoslot!'. Q. — Then you went south, did you? A. — Yes. Q. — Did jou go any further east than ITl? A. — Xo. sir. I do not think I did. Q. — But you W(>nt south belo.v 54 did you? A. — Xo. Q. — Above 54? A. — Yes, above 54. Q. — Then how far west did you go, did you go to I'm? .\. — I went as far as Rogosloflf. Q. — Here is Ilogosloff, latitude l(W, that is as far west as you went? A. — Yes. y. — Between these pctints was where vou hunted \v IS.'^il? .\.— Yes. Q. — Did you find seals? A. — I found scatteriur.; seals all the way over. Q. — I)id you make much of a tatch? A. — I did not make any big oateh. Q. — When were you seized? .\. — 1 was seized. I believe, (in the 28th of July. Q. — You know, captain, from your experience that very few seals are taken as a rule before that date in Behring Sea? .\. — Well. I have not found it so in my own exiierience. il. — You have been there twice since that date? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In what years.' A.— In 1SS7 and ISSH. iy — How many seals e able to tell you. Q. — I am not asking you exactly. 1 do not want to bind you to one seal, oi- within 20 or even 50. A. — Well, I do not kn«)W as I can say within a liundred or two, I believe I caught somewhen- between H(H) and !)(K». (i.— Will you swear y()u caught SOO befon' the 2Hth of •luly? A.— I wmild not swfar to the exact ntimlu'r. Q.— Will you swear you caught in the neighborlTood of H(M» before the 28th of Jiily? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— With how many boats? A.— Six boats. Q._How nmny did you gi't altogether in the season? —I do not rememlM'r exactly. Q._You were seized in 1887, were yon? ,\.— Yes, sir was seized. \. ■io Mr. 1887. By Q. Warren:— He was seized on the 25th of August, in 60 Mr. Bodwell: -But before the 2.8th «>f July you had taken 8(t(> seals? A.— I had taken somewhere about that. (j._\Vhere did you get them? .\.— I caught them very much on the same ground all around out there. Q.— Just about the same ground as you caught them in 18S(J? A.— Yes. Q— How many did yt»u get »)etween the 2Slh of July and tlie 25th of August wluMi you were seized? .V.— I believe I hal altogether, when I was seized, something over l,(iOO, but I am not positive how nmny it was. il.—U\ what locality did you get that additional number of .se.ils in the month »'»f August? A.— Well, I got tlu'ui in about the same grouitd. Q.— You caught them al)ou< the same ground? A.— Yes. Q.— You kept working around in about the same ground? .\. — Yes. sii'. 4«!»'l illii iiiiJi m ■i lir^:i.i n '4t making a north and easterly point from that p(»int? A. — No, sir, I was laving to, looking for seals there. Q. — How long had you been laying to? A. — I think 1 had been there three days. The weather was foggy. Q. — You exjMMted that the seals would leave the islands and start south somewhere about the lOtli of July? A. — No, 5'^ sir, I did not exjK'ct anything of Ihe kind. i}. — What were you in that jiosition for? A. — I was then- to look for seals iK'cause that is the sealing ground all over there. Q. — Of course, and you went where you knew the sealing ground woubl be? A. — Why. cerlainly. Q. — So that liie sealing giound is confined to certain limits? A. — Yes, but them'liiiiits is anywheres frcun the northeast of the islands up to the northwest of the islands, and to tlie southward llowed the sea since you came to man's es- liite? A.— Since 1S7."). (i.— Out of what ports? Out of the ports of San Fran- I is( 1, Yokohama, Victoria and Seattle. ii — In what c^ijtacity did ytm sail in 1S7,T? A. — As a hun iir (III board an otter schooner on the Caiifornian coast. (i.— And in lS7(i? A — IS7(! I omitted; I did not go to sea 60 in |s7»i. ti. — IMd you go to sea the next year? .\. — Yes, sir. (i. — Is there any year that vou ouiitlcd from that time ilowii to IS't.f)? A.— No, sir. Q. — When did vou go as master for the tlrst time? .\. — In INS.-,. 'i. — Ill what? .V. — In the Itiitish schooner "renelope," II ;;is(eretl at Shanghai. Q. — And built in Japan? \. — Yes, built in Yokoliama. ;}4 ill r ft ' ; m mw jj'- ''\hv» lO 20 (K. I'. Miner— l>iici-l.) (i.— And during all tlu'sc .vt'tus, from 1875. with the exH'j) lion of 1H7(>, down to IS!)') wlu'iv havo you hunted? A.— On the ooiist of <"tiliforniii, otter hunting until 1880, and 1 tlien came north and went to tlu' Kurile Islands. Q. — Where are Ihey? A. — On the northern part of Japan, helonging to the .lajtanese Empire, and reaehinp from Kani atehato to the Islands of Yedo. Q. — .\nd where else? A. — AfterwardH I went to Ban Franeisco. and the next voyage I was up the coast sealing in the Itehring Hea. through to the Aleutian eoast, down to Oktch Sea. and then to Yokohama. Q.— What year was that? A.— That was in 1881. (J. — That was purely as a sealing voyage? A. — Sealing and hunting. Q. — What were you sailing in that year? A. — The ''Anas tasia (.'asliman." Q. — In 1H81 did you go sealing? A. — Yes, sir, 1 went seal- ing and otter liiinting tt) Kurile islands. Q. — Did vou enter iSehring Sea going or coming? A. — Not until 1880. (2. — When did you enter the Mehring Sea? A. — I brought the "renelope" from Yokohama to Victoria at the end of the otter hunting voyage and came through the Behring Sea late in the season. Q. — In 188(»? A. — Yes. sir, the weather did not permit of any hunting and we came right on. Q. — What class of vessels were you accustomed to from 1875; were they merchantmen or hunters and flshers? A. — I have never been on a merchantman, but always im fishing and hunting vessels. Q. — .Mways the same rlass of vessels as went into Hehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — You have been familiar with them all your life? A. — Yes, since 187.". (i.— I>o you know whether in 1880 or in 1887 there were in the city of San Francisco, or al)out the city, shipyards of large iliniensions? A. — Yes, sir, 1 know several build'Ts there. Q.— Were thes(> yards adapted to the building and outfit ting of these sealers and hunters? A. — There was none llial I know of exclusively, but there was ('. O. AVhite and Afalthew Turner and I5en Mixon. who all built vessels of tliat class. Q. — They built these vessels and were fully enuippeil to turn them out? .\. — Yes. sir, fully ecjuipped and they fain ed out a great 'uany. ij. — Do you know of any other ship yards on the Pacific 50 <"oast where this class of vessels were turned out in 1.880 and 30 40 I8S7 .\. — \(». I ? A. — I cannot say as to whether they were out in 18S«. The "C. G. White was built at that time, but whether tlii' "C. II. White" was built before 1887 I cannot say. It was surely 1888 if nor 1887. Q. — Can you state any others tluit you knew of. fixing the time by your experience here in 1880. up to that time? A. — There was the schooner ".\nnie," the "San Diego." the ter," the "Theresa," and the "Alexander" and the Jose." Q. — Do you remember tiie "City of San Diego" then? — Yes. sir. Q. — And the "Sierra?" A. — Yes. sir. t). — She was of the same period? A, — Yes. sir. (j._r)id you name the "Vanderbilt?" A.— I knew her but did not name her. Q.— And the "Lillie L?" A.— Yes. Q. — And the 'Pearl?" A. — I did not remember her. Q. — And the "Sylvia Handy?" A. — I knew her well; yes. sir. I recall the "Pearl" now. I do remember the "Pearl" as belonging to the .Maska Commercial Compiiny. Q. — She was a sealer and built in San Francisco? A. — Yes, by Turner. Q.— The "Angel Dolly?" A.— Yes, sir. f)0 (}, — The "Laura," do you remember her? .\. — Yes, sir. H. — She was a small vessel, of about how many tons? .\. .\bo)it twenty tons. Q.— Do you remember the "Golden Fleece?" .\.— No. sir; I do not. (i.-^Do you remember the "Rose Sparks? Sparks" I remenibtT well. t^ — At that period? .\, — Yes, sir. 40 "Ol- 'San A. 5c A.— The "Rose .' 4 Hi ¥: ill- p! IMS- ' . 1 1 . ; .i\ » : ■'i 'J|»s and concentrated at Victoria? They would come up. for instance, from San Francisco and re register here? A. — Yes. sir, they were built on the California coast. Q. — I speak of thi' jirojiortion of the vessels, whether re- gistered at another port or not, in the fleet up to tlie close of the year 188(5. hi these years were most of that class of vessels originally built in San Francisco? A. — In San Fran cisco iiiid viciuily; there would be more than two-thirds. Q. — Would you put it at nine tenths? Make your own projiortiou? .\. — T will put it at two-thirds and be on the safe side. Q. — Now. you were engaged in this business and in ana logons business away back in 187.') and in 188(5 and up to 18i»5. in this business of sealing and fishing for aeals, when tlu'ic was a dt'Uiand for a vessel, will you please state what, to the business, was known as the port at which the valuation of these vessels was to be fixed. A. — San Fracisco WiiH understood. (i. — .\nd the value was fixed at San Francisco because of the number of shipyards there and th«' une(|uallt>d facilities for building the ships? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — .\nd because of that the value was fixed at San Fran- cisco? A. — Yes, sir. (i.^Now. you have had to do with the outfitting of schoon f'rs? A. — Y(s. since I have been master. Q.— Since what dat<'? A.— Since 188."). ii. — Was there any dirt'erenc«' in the form of the outfit for the sealing business in 188(5, or would the outfit be aim- 10 20 30 40 Go 533 (E. P. Miner— Din'ct.) ilar for otlwr voshcIh prior to \HHV>'! A. — We carried about tlu> name qiinlity of {^oodH and the winie (|unntlt,v. y. — When tliev went (Hit liuntinK walruseH. did th«'y take Runs and nnununition? A. — Only ritleH for walruses. Q.— Did they take boats? A.— Yes. sir. {}. — Siniihir boats to those used in sealing? A. — They were birger boats, but similarly constructed. Q. — Did they take hunters? A. — Yes. a hunter for eadi boat. Q.— Did vou ever outtit in Victoria? A.— Yes. in 1SS7. Q.— What ship? A.— The "Penelope." Q. — How large a vessel? A. — She was about 71 tons. (i. — How many men did she <-arry? A. — I think she car- ried that year twenty-one or twenty-two men. Q. — Including the captain and mate? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — How nuuiy boats? A. — Five boats and a stera boat. Q. — She was liilly equipped with guns? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And a slop chest? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Was there any difference in the outfitting at Victoria and the outfitting at San Francisco? A. — 1 could not see hut very little difference. Q. — I mean as to the volume and not as to the cost? A. — No. sir. Q. — Now, was there any difference, in your experience, as to the cost of outfitting at Victoria from the cost it hei*e was about the same as on the oth(»r side ii. — When you got through, you thought the fitting out here was about the same as in San Francisco? A. — Yes. sir. (i. — That is it would average up? A. — Average up. (i. — Now, give us a general idea of an outfit for sealing. 1 refer to an outfit for a sealing cruise in these yj'iirs? A. — In the way of provisions or the whole? Q.—i want you to give the outfit of the ship? A.— There was the provisitm bill first. Q. — How mupiii}r tlio men. I ncvor fln;litK and cvorvtliinR to mali<' tlio in»'n coiiifortabic? A. — Ych. cvcrytliinjj for tlic oxpcnw of tlic vovat?*' in tli«» wav of Jivinjj was about 1^10 to oacli nnin. Q.— And you statt''#1.2(>() to f 1.700 for from 20 to 24 men. '° would you pleast" tell us for how lon^i a voyajj;*'? A. — I UHually fitted out f(»r nint' months. Q. — And suppose you were ({oin^ for four or live inontlis? A. — I would fit out acrordiufily. I always had j)rovisions to return. I never stayed lonji enou^Ii to use them. I never stayed the full nine months out. Q. — What would you figure the sh)p chest per man? A. — I never fljfure the slop chest in tliat way. 1 figure tlmt as ad- vances. Q. — How? A. — Hecanse tliat is sold to the men, and it comes back as wages paid and there is always some profit. (i. — What would you figure it at in the outfit? A. — He- tween three and four hundered dollars for an extra good slop chest. Q. — For how many men? A. — For a crew of that size, from 20 to 24 men, (J. — And what other things are included in tlie outfit out- side of l)oats and oars and sails for the boats? A. — Tliere are guns and ammunition and loading tools, and sjtears and various other things. ^ (i. — If you were making up yonr list to fit your schooner in lS8fi. how would you say as to the amount of ammunition? .\. — I knew altoul what we would use to each hunter. Q. — I want you to estimate here in this witness box as you would estimate if you were going to fit out a schooner in 1880? A. — My ammunition lull usually ran about f.'iSO. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I wish the witness to understand tlie form of the questiim and to answer it exactly in that form. I do not wish to Iiave a 40 line of examination opened up which will extend the record to great length. \\\ -Mr. Dickinson: — Q. — I ask you. suppose you were fit- ting out a schooner in 188(t? .\. — I should take seven or eight 25pound kegs of powder. Q. — For how man hunters? A. — For six hunters, and I would take abcuit 28 sacks of buckshot and al»out 10,000 primers. Q. — What ar(> primers? A. — Primers are the fulminate 5° that explodes the powder. Q. — Would you have taken this in 188(!? A.— About that. Q. — How much did the sliot cost per bag? A. — I cannot say what it cost in those days. (i. — And the powder? A. — The powder was ^~ or fiT.!)!* a keg. Q. — Is it higher or lower now?.\. — Much lower now. Q. — Is shot liiglier or lower? A. — Shot is lower than it was. qq Q. — You understand perfectly that you are (lealing with the values in Victoria in 188(!. fitting out here? A. — No. sir, in 1887 I sjmke of. K}. — Was there any difference in the outfit Ix'tween 188(5 and 18K7? A.— Not tiiat I know of, I do not think there was. When I stated the j>rlce (»f powder I meant tlie Amencan price and Iher*' is the duty to be added to that here. l}. — When you sjioke of the average outfit being altout ecpial to San Francisco and finding some things cheaper in 10 20 30 (V.. 1\ Mi.M'i— l)im(.) Victoria and moiiu* things th'ai'cr, yon Hitolvc as lo pruvisioii- iim tlicn? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Thert' was ii duty upon aniinnniliiMi tlicn? A. — Yes, sir, there was a duty upon ammunition and a large duty u]mim guns and sudi outfitting as that. tj. — And you had to liave Ameriran guns and Amcriian powder? A. — It was nnnli better tlian any otlier we could get. y. — They had guns and powder liere, liad tliey not? A. — Yes. (2. — And American guns and American powder, they had tliem here? A. — I did not see any Ameritan guns liere. Q. — If they fitted out with American guns tliey would have to pay a duty; do you remember wliat duty that was? A. — The duty, I think, was 20 per cent, on guns. t^. — And on ammunition? A. — I thinl\ it was four cents id poo you think of any sundries of any kind or descrip tion that should be added to a vessel getting ready for seal- ing? A. — One sundry that should be added (o a sealing out- fit would be the signal gun to be used in fog. Q. — How large a gun? A. — A gun of about two inch luire Kuilable to fire about a quaiter of a pound of powder at a charge; I should say if nnide of brass, it would cost about ino or f5o. Q. — Is there any oil for the lamps necessary to be furnish- ed? A. — I always considered that in the |»rovision '»ill, it was ordered with the provisions. Q. — Y'ou had included that in the provision bill? .\. — Yea, sir. Q. — Now, about extra sails. What have you to say as to that? A. — That goes with the vessel, and not with the seal ing outfit. Q. — Now, if you estimating the value of a sealin;. vessel. ^0 I'iive you had anything to do with the price in buying a seal- ing vessel yourself? A. — I have dit-kered witl. other ves sels, I never bought one myself but I have had an iiiteresi in one. I never bought one outside, but I have bargained for vessels. Q. — For others? A. — For myself. ti. — You knew something as to how to keep posted on tlu; i-ost and value of vessels? A. — Y'es. sir. (i.— From what time? A. -From about 1SS8. after 1 weni to San Francisco. i thought then of getting a small vessel ;o for myself to go north otter hunting, and I sjjoke (hen lo Mr. Turner. Q. — Are you familiar with tlie cost and value of vessels of tlie cluu-acter used in sealing? A. — I think I am. (2. — So that when you s(H' a vessel at sea or in port and go njion her you can f«irm an idea as to her value in the market ? •V. — Yes, sir. Q. — What she should sell' for? A. — Yes. sir. tj.— f)r what one should pay for her? .V. — I think so. Q. — You have not been in any other business all youi- life but this? A. -Not until I.SO.').' Q. — Then what did you do? A. — I have a little restaur- :int. g.— Where? A. -Seattle. Q. — Now. in estimating the value of a ship, if you buy her to Heal, what goes with her? A. — Her sails, anchors, chains, side lights, cooking utensils, range, and all the appurtenances ready for sea. If vou bargain for a new vjssel fitted for sea that goes with her. Oo II- (■■ !,(, 1 ;(;. '■'' V ■ijt'lMM lO 20 30 40 50 60 (V: V. Mini'i'— Diivct.) Q. — All ready for s«'U? A. — Voh, sir. (i. — Itfiidy witli her Hciiliii); o(iiiij>iiicnt and roady for wa? A. — Vi'H, «ir, Willi nraliiit; ('i|iii|iin*Mit. (i. — Would an oxtra sail lie part of the Hliijt or part of the HiipplicH? A. — An t'xtra Hail would bo aoHed to Inst. Q. — That is when she was a new vessel, but I am Hp«'ak- inj? of an ordinary vessel that may be 20 or 1(( or 15 yearn old. A. — That depends on what condition she was kept in. she nii};ht want very niueh shij) chandlery and she miglit want very little if slie was kejtt in pood order. I was >;(>- inj? to say that would be a consideration in the price of II10 vessel as to how well she was titted. Q. — Suppose before sendiuR her out on a scaling voyage she was repaired, and new planks put in her and the old planks taken out, and she was |)ainted and new locks ])ut on her cabin and lockers, wh»'n equipping her/ in making her ready for sea, before her s»'uling outtlt was jiut upon her; would you take this into consideration in addition to her estinuited value? A. — No, sir^ 1 should put that to the cost of the vessel. Q.— That is if you call a ship worth f.1,000 on the Ist of December, 18!)0, and in the meantime, between the Ist of December, iMlMi, and the Ist of January. IH!»7, she was ]ml ill thorough repair, you would not say «he was worth |i:{.(MIO on the 1st of DecemlMT, and ^;'.,()(K> on the Ist of January, with (he rejiaira added, would you? A. — No, sir, that would Ih' the cost of the repairs. Q. — Do you know anything about the original cost of any ships of your own; 1 mean sealing vessels of a similar size and type? A. — I know of similar vessels having been built in California about that time. The estimated <'o«t of ves- sels up to that time of about 40 tons was flOO r«'gister ton nage. I remember that because 1 thought it very strange that they built vessels by registered tonnage. Q.— That was in 1886? A.— No, that was in 1888. Q. — I want to get at the price in 1880? A. — I am not familiar with any vessels sold in that time. Q. — Do you know anything about the price of the "linger?" A. — I know the cost of her; the builder told me. Q. — When was she built? A. — She was built somewhere in the early eighties. ii. — Now. we are getting back. Von kn«'W her in 188uilt of Oregon pint* or DoukIxh Hr. (i. — Ih fhcro any dittrrt-nct' hotwci-n Oregon pine and l>ouf;laH lir? A. -Not tliat I know of. Q. — And tlu'w* wtTc bnilt ot tliat niatcrinlt A. — "^ ««. (2. — l»id you know tlw "Carolciia"? A. — I saw Iut on tlur beach; I never Haw her afloat. Q. — What sort of a boat wan Hhe. an to iK'inK well built, was she old or new style? A. — It was a very ohl style of veswl, that is, in incMlel. (). — Her model was very old style? A. — Yes, sir. II. — Did that fact impair her market value at all? A. — It surely would. Q.--What \a the difference between the old style and the new style? A. — They are modehMl to be better sailers and Ix'tter sea boats in tlie ncx. model. H. — Was she deficient in those respects in her nuidel? A. — I should say so. Q. — Was she in accordance with the standard of ships of her size and tonnage? A. — She was defective as to a sailer; I should never pick her out as being a sailer. (2. — The (juestion is, whether she was up to the expected standard of IMHti of vessels of her size and class in model and in sailing qualities? A. — I should nctt have considered her so. Q. — Would that impair her market value? Would there be a difference Ix'tween her, even if she was in tine seaworthy condition and sound timber, as compared to a ship of modern build? A. — It would be to anyone who had an ey<' for su. (i. — Her model has not changed and she was not broken up any? A. — \o. sir, she was not broken up, only her rig- ging was down. Q. — And assuming that she was in a seaworthy <'ondition with entirely sound timbers in 188(>, what would be the dif- ference in value betwe«'n that ship and a new ship of a iiKKlern c«mstniction iind build? A. — I should say fully !>(i iicr cent. (.y — Do you take that valuation at San Francisco, Victoria or Seattle? A. — San Fiiincisco would be the only place I could base my calculation »m. Q. — Do you take her valuation from the liead(|uarters of the market for such ships? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Now, we will add to that condition: a ship of the old model that you saw, and we will add to the desr ii|Miii til)' liiiHJiH'HH hIk* whh K<>i"K '<> fiitfi-, iiiui how iiHpfiil Kh«' would be for tluit buMiiu-HM more than anything Q. — Hut in the market, what wan mIic worth in llic ninrkct? A. — lu lh<> niarkft I think, Hh«> would Ih> iiroltahly uwIi'rh, unlcHH tlieri> wuh houi** HiHTJal liuHint'HH to put her into that IQ Hhe could aifonipliHli. Q, — What you mean to wiy Ih, that licr value would depend upon the Hpecial eirciiniHtanee of »ouie one wanting her for a HpocinI buHineHH? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And what would you «ay an to her value in the market generally? A. — In the market f;enerally a veKHel that had been built up ho much on and of tiiat ap-. would be, I think, «'omparativ»'ly UHelenH. There could be no market valtie wet on her. Q. — They would very likely have to make a npeeial wile? 20 A. — YeH, Hir. Q. — Now you were Healing' in lleiirinn Sea in IH87? A. — In IHXl I sealed in tlie Hehrinn S«'a. Q.— What did you go into the Hehrinj; Sea in IHS7? A.— In the "Penelope." Q. — You carried boatu? A. — Yes, I carried six boats, live boats and the stern boat which I hunted in myself. • Q. — And you had been in the sea. I think, every year since 18H1? A. — Not sir. sinci' IHSl. I remained on Jhe .lapanese const until IHHti. 30 Q. — l>id I not understand you to say that you passeil ■M\i« I never came further east (J. — Did I not understand through the sea in IHHIi? A.- thnn ('opfH'r Islands. Q. — Hut in the years on a you had a chance? .\. — \. — I did not seal in Japanese coast ycui were seal hunting? A. — Seal hunting; and otter huntiuf;. (J. — And from IHHH until IKK") you have sealed every year In the liehrin;,' Kea? .\. — Not every year; I have l»een warn- ed out. Q. — You have sealed whenever y"" '""' " '••>niii.«'' Yes, sir. 40 Q. — ^Yhat years did you not seal 1S88 and I did not seal in 18!»1! and 18!t:{. I would not be pos itive about 18}»2. Q. — Now, when yon went into the sea in tlie "l'eneloi)e." did you come upon larpe number of seals at times? .\. — You mean in sipht from the vessel? Q. — Yes? A. — I suppose I have seen bunches of 2(1 oi- 2."i wals. Q. — And in your boats? A. — 1 have seen the same bunclifs layinfj around. We do not esliiiiate tlie number of seals 50 around by one bunch. We used to run across them. Q. — One bunch would indicate that there were other bunches near? A. — '^'es. sir. on the feeding ground of seals. Q. — I»o you find it to occur as an ordinary or excej) tional occurrence, that when there are abundant seals on the grounds yon sometimes cannot pet them? A. — I have seen that so. I have 8e<'n it more ditticiilt to jj;»'t them when there was an abundance of seals than when they were more scat tered. Q. — You could kill in a segregated bunch easier than you ^o could in a large bunch? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— What is the difficulty about that? A.— They do not sleep when they are together. Q. — They are disposed to play? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And when awake is it less easy to g<'t tliem? A. — It is very much more dilticult to get tlieiii. Q. — Is there any large proportion of seals lost after being shot when they are awake? A. — Yes. sir. of awake seals ii large proportion are lost? 20 5.W ([•• r. MiiHT— hirtTl.) Q, -Why Im ihiit? A. — UftaiiKc tlicv iirc Htaii wnttM- tiiHl hIioI from tli<' fi-oiit lookiiiK lit voii. Tlit-y fall on tiicir IxK'k tlx-n. iinil I nndt'iNtnnd tliiit tlir nir conirH out of their hndv nnd tlicv hIiiI; tail tiiNt. (i. — And j{o out of Hi^ht iind iin- lost? A. — Y«'h. ii. — They doit'r conn- up tipiin? A. — I n«'v«T knew of one to lonie up; n dend xeiil will sink like a Ntone. Q. — You never knew of one to eoine up? A. — I nlwayn un- '" derHtood It that way. When the wind Ih (Mit of them they go down like a Htone. but if they art' Hhot from the baek they Moat (]uite a while. y. — And they are Hhot from the hack when aHleep? A. — Y«>H, Hir. (i. — When yon approaeh them aH they are awake they uhu- ally are fnmtin^ you? A. — Yew. tMcauNe moHl of the time if they know you are about tliey try to look at you. (j. — I>o the NealH scent a num? A. — Yes, nir. (J. — At wliat diHtance? A. — 1 tliink at an extraordinary diHtanc(*. Q. — Beyond tlie nifflit of tlie vessel? A. — Oil. no, nir. but I sliould think at least a(H) or 41)0 yards. Q. — Is there any special method adopted because of thiH in approaching a seal? A. — We always approadi from the Ie«'ward. Tliat is, if we are to the windward of the seal we are careful not to i»ass her tliat way. Q. — Now, ('a]>tain Miner, out of a body of seals awake, what proj)ortion of tliem that are killed are lost? A. — It de- 30 pends a K''«'»t deal on tlie man who slioots llieiii. Q. — Do you shoot tliem at some distance wlien they are awake? A. — If you shoot tliem at a lonfj distance. I think fully half would be lost. Q.— Fully half? A.— Yes, sir, that is when we kill at a lonji distance. Q. — You. yourself, I think, aio a pretty crack shot? A. — Yes. I have always shot some seals. Q. — Well, it is not immodest for you to say. if you have the reputation of beiuR a firstclaBS shot, have you? A. — 40 Yes, Bir. Mr. Peters: — If we are ffoinjj into the question of how nianj' seals are lost by sinking after being shot, we will en- ter into a rather broad inquiry. I think that evidence of that kind, has been stopped by the Commissioners even on the croKH-examination of our witnesses. The real question before ns is: Notwithstanding all these diflticulties what number of seals are caught. Mr. Hodwell: — I commenced to examine a witness on this 50 v,.py point now objected to. aiui 1 was stopjied. Mr. Peters: — I can produce witness after witness to say that what Captain Miner is stating is not the case, and that the experience of other fieople is different. Numbers of witnesses who have been on the stand can testify to that effect. I refer to page 204 of the printed evidence and I find that this very question was put to one of our witnesses and ruled out. Captain O'Leary was being examined by my h-arned friend. Mr. Hodwell. and the following took place: 60 "Q. — What is your experience as to the proportion of seals which are lost by hunters in sealing, 1 mean, what is the proportion of seals they lose com])ared with those they get? "The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States:— What have we to do with that. Mr. Bodwell? "Mr. Hodwell : — My friends have opened that question. "The Commissioner on the part of the Tnited States: — This is your case now . not the defendant's case. i' II !! iH'lltr. 30 [E. r. MiiU'i— Diivcl.) "Mr. Bodwcll: — I think I have ortion of the case that we put in, as jQ I remember it, did not refer at all to that subject; it referred simply to the irail that the seals use in going into Rehring Sea, and the number that went in there. "The Commissioner on tlu; part of Her Majesty: — The ground on which it was put in was that it (|ualified. It may or may not have qualified, but that was the reason which justified its going in at the time." Then the matter dropped and the question was not allow ed. On our part it does appear to nie that we are entering into a very broad inipiiry if we are going into this very 20 soientific question as to whether a seal will sink whether yon shoot him on the back or whetlier you shoot him dead, or whether you don't quite kill him. If we enter into tliat wc will be in an endless inquiry. As I have already said, the practical question before us is: Notwithstanding all these difflculties what quantity of seals on an average could be caught. Mr. Dickinson: — From the time my learned friend intro duced here a number of statements from the American case, and from the time that he put in maps and asked witnesses to point out where seals were caught, and submitted maps, showing the habitat of the .seals in Heliring Sea; from tliat time I have seen that if tliat testimony stood we would be compelled to meet it precisely in the way we are doing. And why? If that testimony had any jiurpose whatever, it was put in for the imrpose of showing that the seals were there in great numbers, and could be easily killed. My hsirncd friends read from the American case to show that the seals were there in great numbers and notably tiie females. 40 They then put in another i)art of the case, and rc-'d testimony to show that b«'tween certain distances, about l(l(» miles wide, there was a great (luantily of sea Is^a river of seals, if you pleas*'. The evidenc<' was intended to show that for about l(l(» miles wide there was a solid nniss of seals during the hunting and sealing season. All of that docunu-ntary testimony, and all of these majm tendered in evidence were in tended to demonstrate that there were seals there, and there fore (cm their own (lieoryl that they are entitled to recover for the problematic catch of what they chose to take out of 50 ihe sea because thev were there. Naturally, if that testi mony stood, may it jdease ycnii Honours, we are compellcil to say that even if the seals were there, there were such modi fica'iiens that they could not get the seals, not even if the channel, 1(»» miles wide, was full of them. We are now go ing into the modifications which afT<'ct a large catch of .s(>als. and we are proving that first and foremost, if they do g<'t seals their liesi chance of getting them is when they arc asleep. We .ire proving here that they were lost in I'cr- tain numbers. if they were shot when awake. ^ and we did not object to the » xaininalioii the other day. and I cimfess I did not oliserve that vour Honours ruled any snch testimony out; but upon this point i did not ])roposi' to j)ress the wit!iess any further. 1 shall insist, however, in th" course of the trial, iij) to Ihe point where the Com- missioners rule it out and alisolnlely demonstrate it. thai with a channel full of seals, and packed dose with seals, that the hunters cannot get a single seal nndei- certain con ditions, (o meet the Icstinionv that because seals are there 54> iK. r. MiiuT— IHrcct.) ihe.v rail loud tht'ir sliipH ad intiuituiii with wal». They pnt (hat testimony in for no otlicp |»tii'i»oH('. Tlicy called ont from one witness that they eould put 7000 sealskins in the •'(.'arolena.'' Mr. Peters: — Oh. no. -Mr. Ditkinson: — Yes. it is in the proof, the evidence is in IQ that they could jtut 700(» seals into the "( 'arolena." Mr. Peters: — Judge King asked how many seals could she (■aiTV. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not remember who asked the cpies- lion, but it is here. .Mr. PeterH:--Vou will tind my answer to tiiat remark, tliat if they once tilled h<'r with sealskins they would not want Id go sealin;', any more. 20 Mr. Dickin.soii: — Hut that proof, may it please the Com- iiiissioners. is no more extralf, and nirely loses a seal, is a skilful man; liiit I am asking him generally as to the loss of seals, lint ^° as tile objection is raised, I call marked attention to our |»ro- jiosition tliat we will submit absolutely <'oiivincing proof to tills high Commission in answer to this documental proof — the affidavits they h.ave read from the American case that (liey cannot catch seals if the seals are there. The <'ommissionei' on the jiart of the I'nited States: — Have we any (piestion before us now, Mr. Oickinson? .Mr. Dickinson: — \o, your Homuir. So far as this witness ,f, is concerned I started in (m this incidentally. Tlie Commissioner on tile part of tln' I'nited States: — We will eiideavoi- to meet the (luestion when it comes before us. .Mr. Peters: — VVlien I perceived lliat my learned friend was going into the matter to a great e.\teiit, I objected. Mr. Dickinson says lie does not wish to follow that up any fur- ther. If he does I must press the objectuui; and in that event I woiihl like to have a ruling wliethei- that evidence in there now should stand. Tli<' (iiiesliiui conies iiji In a jilaiii, SO ilislliicf, and '-lear form, and of course If It Is allowed we must govern ourselves accv>cdiiigly, and when the propel- time comes, put in rebuttal evidence upon that point. >ir. Dick- inson states lie has hundi-eds of witnesses— The Commissioner on llu' part of the rnited Slates: — Oh, yes. you can get a thousand on each side. There is not a hit of It. from tlie first paragraiih re;id down to tlie presciit time, that would have tlie slightest elfect on my mind. It is iiapossilile to tell where it is goiiig to land us unless coun f-,Q scl will agree to limit themselves to llie iiiimlier of wit- nesses. .Mr. Peters: — I have only to say tliat there is a specitic pojiii brought up now as to the number of seals lost iiv sink- ing. The C witness mi far will abide the ruling;. Direct exauiiu! tiou conUuued bv Mr. Dickinsou.. Q. — Nftw. <'aj taiu Miner, will voii please state whether the firinff of the yi ns will awaUen tlie seals? A. — It does verv tuiieh, yes, s'-. Q. — 1>0( ., it teniet no more? .\. — Yi's, sir; ijiey disapiieared. ii- — .\nd have you noticed that a heavy rain will awaken seals? .\. — ^■es, sir; tle-y will nut sleep .at al! in a heavy lain; they will roll and l»lay. t^.— What are the chances of geltiii); seals in siffht when they :ii(' in that ((mdition? .\. — The chances are against getting them; one has to work very caitimisly. Q. So that the lai'ge catches are 11 ade of llie sleepiiej: seals' .\. — The largest catches are made in calm weather of sleeping seals. (i. ~ \\ l.at have you to say. 'aplain Miner, as to this pm position.' ^'ou seiil 111 I'chring Sea al a given |poinl of lati tilde ami longitude' on llie .>^ili of .Inly, we will say. ISSfi. and vol" find seals in plenty and good hunling. l>oes it follow that \ou will tind seals at the sanii' sc ,isoii of the year an 543 iK. 1'. MiiK'i' — Diifcl — <"i'< your a^re wlien yon first went to sea? A. — 1 went to .sea in IST'i; I w:i', 21 years old. Q. — Had you ever li"en employed in shipyards? A. — No sir. (i. — Speakiuff ^{enerallx. did you do any bnniness at all he- fore you were -21 years of .ure? \.—l did different business wilti lioises and farminft. Q.— Then you went to sea? .\. — Yes sir. Q. — Before tiie mast oi- as a liunter? A. — Ah a hunter. -o (.}. — Were you a }i, sir. il. — You could not construct a ship? A. — I could not. (i.— Your time has been fully o icinity did you hunt? IIow far north? A. — Tlie first voyage was from San Frainisco south. (i.— (ioiiiiX out about when? .\. — 1 could not tell just the time of year: I lliink alonK in .March some time. Q. — .\bout March, and you steered south? .\. — Yes. sir. i] — And what would be die coiuse of the ship when you started from port, fur what plac" would you make? A. — We went to Santa Harbaia Island- fiisl. Q. — .\nd how many (iiin'S did \(ii t;ike that trip? .V. — I took that trip twice. Q. — Tlie same course eacli lime? .\. — No, once from San Kraucisro; that was ilie first; then fi'om Santa IJarbara. The vessel tiffed out frum Sania Marbara. H. — What ])oint would you first make; did you start the same time of year? .\.— .\bout the same time; we made Santa Rosa Isjjinds first. ;o W- — What sort of luck had you there? .\.— VY.- had very pour luck the til St time. (i. — Muf not some seals? .\. — No. 1 was after otter. ii — You went affii oiter? .\. — N Cs. sir. (J.— And the next time after otter? A.— The next time after otter. q, — |>i,i vou ^ee .seals on i Itese occasions? .\. — Scatter- in;; ones only, (i-— I'iUt you saw seal* on both occasions? .\. — Yes, sir. »). — What year does that brinj: us to. your second offer ^"' trip? .\. — Thai briiiy;s me — tliere were three, two in one Vessel— that briiitfs me to ISSIf. t^.— Now. then, issi? .\.- In H><(l I came north, t).— On which coast? .\.— On this coast: a vessel flfted oiif from San Francisco. g._\Vliaf mouth? .\. -Fitted out in .March, 1 think. l^._\Vl,i,l f(,i? A. For offer hunliuR and sealinti;. ().— For whai cruise? A, -For about eight or nine iniiuths. :ii ^^m I IIIMu lO 20 3« 40 50 60 544 (E. r. Miner— ("rosa.) g.— Where? A. — L'p the coast here, through tlie lU-hrin}; Sea to the Kusshin coast. (>,— How niHiij- months wonhl that make jour vessel out? What month of the year Jid you expect to start? A. — We started in March. Q. — For wliat time did you expect to stop? A. — We ex- pected to stay until September. Q. — You fitted out for an ei^ht months' cruise? A.— For about an eight months' cruise. Q. — What time in March did you fit out'' A. — About the first of March. Q. — When would the otter huntin;;; stop? A. — One ran hunt otter all the year. Q. — When did you exjx'ct the otter hunting to stop? A. — Not until September. Q. — So that you fitted out then to hunt otter from the first of March until the first of September? A. — Yes, until about the latter j»art <»f September. Q. — What would you rtM]uiTe in connection with otter hunt- ing? What sort of boats? A. — We used then 2:\ foot boats. Q.— What width? A.— About five feet and a half; about the same width they have now. Q.— What cost? .v.— The otter boats then, 1 think, cost »115 or ^120. Q. — What had you in the way t»f weapons? A. — RifleH altogether. Q. — On that eccaf^ion how many rifles had you? A. — I had one rifle of my own and usually one of the ship's. Q. — IIow many had the shij)? A. — I couldn't say. Q. — Flow many hunters had you? A. — There were three. Q. — Were these otter hunters? A. — Otter hnnter8;yes, sir. Q.— Now this was in ISSl. was it not? A.— 188(> Q.— Take 1881. You ari' sure this was 188t)? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — That was the first trip np the const? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You went to t!ie Kurile Islands the first trip? A. — I88t) I went to tiie Kurile Islands the first trip. Q.— When was vour first trip north here? A.— That won in 1881). Q. — Then in 1881 you went again? A. — Y«'S, sir. (J. — To the sam place? A. — Very much the same place Q. — Did you ^vt seals on b(»th occasions? A. — Yes, sir Q. — Do you know the feeding grtmnds around the Kurile Ishnids for sealing? A.--T{iglit otT the coast. Q. — .\bout wliei-e v<>uld (lie fci'ding grounds be off the Kn rile Islands? A. — Tliey resemble the feeding grounds on this coast ver,\ ninrh. Q.^IIow do you know them? A. — .\(cording to where you find tlie fish. Squids i.** one of the principal fe( as. Q. — Do v':;: look for rlie S(|uid, or for the place on the chart? A — Xo. sir; I never look at a ciiart to (ind the seals. Q. — I am speaking of (lie Kiii'ile Islands; where are the fi'((ling rounds iliere? .\. — Fiom nl)out, way, II) oi' l.T to -0(1 miles off shore. Q. — Do you go liy ilie 'Imii to iliese feeding grounds? .\. — \o, sir; I had nothing to do with that. (i.— I am siK'iikini: of the vessel? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you steer for those places on Itoth occasions? .V. — Xo; when we got (here we steered right for the islands. We were then looking tor oder more than seals. t^. - Wlia( is (he dilTereiiee in looking for <>t(ei from look ing for seals? .\. The o(ter feed ejoser avouiid the rocks. Q.— Then you have ^;o( to j^d near shore for tliem? \ — Yes, sir. 10 20 545 (K. r. MiiHT — CnisH.) d we haj;o there on either occasion to look for seals? \. — W\' went on the occasion I am tellin;; vou. <^— ISSl? A.- -Yes. sir. Q.— And ISHII? .\.— Yes. sir. ly — l)i Kurile Islands. Q. — The same f;<"oundB? .\. — Yes. sir, the same ni'"unds. Q. — Hunted the same t;'''"">pi)sed island. (2. — You were looking for an ishind that year? A. — Yes, sir. t^. — In ISS.'i wliat wei'e you doiiif:? .^. — I was master llieii of the "I'etielojie." (i. — You tilted liei" out where? A. — In Yokohama. i]. — F*'' •^- — H'"! '•'"' ^1'"' K"" to my re iiiUectiou aboard, my own. g.— That was in I'ss.".? A.— ISS."). ti. — You were not then outtiltinn for sc;il hunting at all? A. — No, sir. Q. — When did you tiisl oiiltit for seals? .\. — Oiittllted for si'iil huuliii^, (he way we ? A.— Yokohama. Q. — What voya(,'c? A. — Tin* same voyajjc uoitli. il. — Tlmt was not for hnntinfj seals at sea? A. — No. sir. tj.— In 18H7 wliat did you do? A.— In '87 I fitted out in Viitoria. "-" ti. — For seal hui liuR only? A. — No. sir. Q, — No prcjiaration for otters? A. — No. sir. Q.— What monili did you fit out? A.— I titted out in Feb luary. Q. — For how lonj; a cruise? A. — 1 expected to make about an eifjht or nine months' cruise. (J. — Is that the usmil length for which you til out seal huntinfi? A. — Yes. sir. (2.- -Is that the usual month you tit out? A. — I have tit ted out in Decemliei', -January and Feluuary. "° Q.— ^Vhen y(»u s[>eak of the nine months' 'ruise, is it in March you usually til out? A. — No, sii'. we usually p-t in by 0<'t<)b<'i' anyway. 'q.— At any iate, in this year. 1887 you titted out for tiial jieriod? A. — Yes. I titted out in February. Q.— And started? A.— Started. I think, about the middle of February. Q. — \Yho was the owner of the "IV nelojie?" A. — .Mr. tlray. (■I. — Where did he reside? A. — In Yokohama. 3^ Q. — Where did you get your instructions in re>j;ard to himtinji? A. — It was understood when I left Yokohama I was to come in here. ii. — And do what? A. — (Jo hunting .seals. ii. — From Victoria? A. — From Vi'toria. Q. — And were you told where to hunt? .V. — No. sir. (i. — ^'ou were to tit out here for seal hunting? A. — Yes. sir. (i.— That was in 18S7? A.— ■S7. *-i. — Had you titted out practically at Yokohama? A.-- 40 No. sir; only for 18StJ and 1887. (i. — Took no part (tf the outtit there? .\. — No. sir. (^ — With whom did you deal in outfitting at this jtort? AVho was llie agent for Mr. tJray? .\. — He d'd not at tirsi have an agent. 1 was agent tirst. Afterwarth. 1 think; if my memory serves me rif-'ht, some time tlie tlrHt part of JuTy. Q. — What number of eanoes had you — boats? A. — Six Itoats altogether; five larfre boats and a stern boat. 10 Q- — Wluit course were you makinjj when yon taitered the Sea; what wa.s your din-ction or destinaticm? A. — I en- tered the Sea from some of the western passages, the Four Mountain Pass. Q. — Where did you propose makinfj for — what point in tlur Sea? A. — Somewhere between Ounalaska and tlie Priby- loff Islands. Q. — IJy tlie time you got to the Pass I sui)pose you had more definite knowledge as to where you could go? A. — 1 was going to look unlil I found the seals. 20 Q. — Well, you had no idea of stopping your ship anywliere? A. — No, sir. Q. — You wero going to sail until you found seals? A. — T'ntil 1 found seals. Q. — What is your course usually? A. — The usual course is through the T'niniak Pass. Q. — .\fter you get into the Pass you do not go straight ahead, do you? What do jou make for? A. — After get- ting through the Pass? Q. — Yes. A. — We then begin cruising about the Sea. 30 Q. — Did you <-ver hear of any fe('ding grounds in Behring Sea? A.— No, sir. Q. — Yon never lieard of any i)articularly good grounds for catching seals in Hehring Sea? A. — I have heard of good grounds, or of good citclies having be<'n made entirely around tile islands in all directions from them. Q. — Good sealing rounds? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — l>o yon know of any places similar to those described over to the Kurile Islands? A. — Feeuui;; grounds? Q. — Yes. A. — I didn't undertake to des(ril)e any tliere. 40 Q. — Did you ever in(|uirc for these? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did it ever strike yon as peculiar that there should be no s(|uid grounds on one side of the Pacitic, and an absence of similar feeding grounds while you were in I'.ehnng Sea in 1SS7? A. — I didn't see any al)sence of good feeding rounds. Q.— You think it all good feeding rounds? A. — Yes, sir. (J.— Do you know the Fair Weather grounds? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.— Thev are outside the Sea? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— What do you know about them? A,— I have hunted 5*^ there a great deal. Q. — flave they a cood name? A. — Yes, sir. (}.— That is fur the period lief feedin- ground there is the same. ^'" (}.- Have you heard, as a matter of fad. that tliat was an extra t tod I'islriig ground? A.— No, sir, I liaveii't. Q._l, , you kiiow anything about the soundings in tlie Sea? A.— Yes, lir, what my chart tells me. (^.—Whi . (),.,'asi(,ii have von had for carefully examining tile soiiiuliiir-*, say oi.lside of the islands irrespective of navi- gation purjioses? .\. — Nmie at all. (J.— Had no occasion? .\.— Had no occasion. ^f fflpw 'llHf<7? A.— 1 It'ft tlio Sea Home time in August. Q.— What tiuu? A.— It was along about tlu* niiddli- of AugUHt. (i. — 1)(» yon know tlic date within a wt'i'ii? A. — It would 10 suri'ly be within a week if it was in tlu' iiiiddk' «»f August. (i.— Who has the log? A. — I haven't the log; it luis been lost or destroyed. t^. — Have you any jtapers that will refresh your memory? in legai'd to your evidenee given to day? A. — N»)thiug that I know of. Q. — You speak entirely from recollection of these years? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you think you left the sea the middle of Augiist, 1SM7? A. — I know it must have been about that time. I 20 know it was about the same time s(une vessel was seized. I cannot remember now which vessel. And as soon as I got the news I went to the westward, t^. — Where did you hear the cutters w»'re at that lime? A. — I heard that they were seizing not far from where I was. Q. — So you got away as far as you could get? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — How far diil you get away before you sealed? A. — I didn't seal anv more at all; we didn't t-top the vessel after 30 that. Q. — Could you show me on the chart, captain, about where you were when yon got the news of the seizures? A. — (Rx amining) I was sailing about here (indicating) from 'M) to 70 miles frcMu iSogoslot. Hogoslof Itearing south southeast. Q. — .\nd then you went fiom there, you say? A. — From there I went directly west, away out here as far as Attn. Q. — And came out in that way? (indicating) A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Avoiding the j»ass by which you came in? A. — Yes. "^ sir. Q. — For purposes of safety, is that right? .\. — I avoided the ])ass; I went to the westward to try and continue my sealing. Q. — But you did not ijo back the old way for an obvious reason? .\. — Yes, sir. t^ — llow many seals did you take after you started from that jtosition which you gave me on the chart, that season? .\. — I (hm't remenilier of taking a seal; I might have got two CO <"■ three, but I don't reiiu'Uiber. <.}. — l>id you lowt'r the boats? A. — No, sir, the boats were never lowered. Q. — Did you search? A. — We were looking from the vis- sel. that is nil. Q. — You did not see any seal there? \. — Not to amount to anything. *.l — Did yen ever seal there again? A. — Not by Attn. Have sealed In Kussian waters. qq (i. — Now. fr(Mn what you have already t(dd me captain. I take it that your knowledge of these shipyards in San Fran cisi-o consists chietly in regard to their existence? A. — I 'aUow them, and I — i-i. — Yon have not worked in them? \. — No, sii-. Q. — Your business n<'ver called you there? \. — I called on the owners. ii. — You have not worked in tliese shipyards? A. — No, sir. 549 i ' :•*] lO A. — I wiiH lUtinn oui A. — Doiiift nolliiiifj;. A. — I knew llir 20 iK. 1*. Miner — < nms.) Q. — Wlu'ii yoii Kiid in IH87 yon did nd foi- bnildinf; st'tilr look for one in Victoria? A. — Ntt. Q, — Yon wero a Htraiint-r wiicn yon cainic, and liow long did yon remain in tliiH p(»rt in 1HH7? A. — 1 reinained al»onl (iirec niuntliH. Q. — What were yon doinj; tlien? my vpHsel. Q. — Wliat were yon doinj; tlien? (). — Did y of the city of \'ictoria. or the varions industries of the place, or what they could do in connection with shipping? A. — 1 think six months' residence here was iiuite ample. Q. — What six mcmths had you had? A. — Three months or more in 1H8(! and three months in 1M87. Q. — Three months in i88(» and three in 1887, enabled you to speak positively as to what this j)lace could do in the way of building ships? A. — I think so. Q. — Will yon swear that you were at that time fully in formed as to the capa on tlie slocks in the course of construction in 1887? A.— No, sir. (I. — Then our knowledge was not vej-y great as to -vhal lliis (own could or could not do in 188*] or 1887? A. — I had no occasion to make inquiries. Q. — Now in 1880, in 1887, you pretend to be able to s;\v on your oath what vessels were engaged in sealing either froi-. tile jiort of San Francisco or from the port of N'ictoria or fnun the Sound? A. — By hearing them named over 1 can. but I couldn't without the assistance of some one naming them. If there was a list of vessels called I conld pick every one out that was engaged in sealing. it — Where did you ac(]uire that knowledge? A. — From being amongst the sealeis. (i.— In what year? A.— In 188(t and 1887. Q. — .\nd in I88() vou were snfliciently among the sealers sailing from San Francisco and the \m\'X of Victoria to stale on your oath today what vessels were out or what vid you start out to sea with them? A.— In 1887. -+0 r,o !l 1 ll"||i!!'iM" 550 •ll'l,. 10 20 30 iK. I'. Miner — t'loHH.) (J. — Were voii ill coiiipany wi(h tin- sciiHiig Heot of Wnn FniiiriHco in 1SS(i? A. — No, sir. (2. — Were yon in tonipiiny wiHi ^\\v st'iilin^j llcfl of N'ii'loriu in lHM(i? A*.— Ill i»off only. ().— In lilt' \Mvt of Vlctorin? A.— Y«'h, sir. ii. — Stalled out with them? .\, — Saw them on their re- turn. Q. — In what month? A. — In Septemln'r, and from then on. Q.— In Sejttemlter. ISStJ? A.— Yes, sir. (i. — You are positive of the year? A. — Of the year. i]. — And the month? A.— No, in October. Q- — Yon arrived in Oetoher. You saw the sealinjj: H<'<'l of Viclorhi in the ])ort of N'ictoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In the montli of Octolter, 1SS(!; you swear to llial? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I'o.sitively? A. — Ye», sir. ().— Yon eoniiled (hem all over? A.— No, I did not. I met the men from them. Q— Where were they lyinj;? A.— They were lyiiif,' iu the liarbor. Q.— \Yhat liarlior? A.— Here, l»y the customs liouso. ^i— Will yon swear that they were lyinp; by the customs house? A. — I swear I saw some lyin^ there. Q. — Will you swear there were tiiree lying there? A.— I think there were. Q- — Now t«'ll me how many of the scaling tleet in October, 1HS(!. yon examined? A.— I examined none. Q. — How long did you remain in the jiort of Victoria In October? A. — I remaiii(>d there, with the exception of may be 11 little trij) away of a couple of weeks, until I sailed tlie following February. Q. — You had no business at that time that made it neces sary or useful for you to be familiar with all these ships? A. — I became familiar with the masters and men employed on them. Q. — Can you give me the names of all the masters that you met in this port in ISSO coiinectod with sealing vessels? A. — I cannot give you the names of all of them. Q. — H I read them tiver to you would you know them all so that you could swear to them? A. — 1 think I would. Q. — Would you swear you would? Arc you as certaifi of the names of the masters as you are of the vessels? A. — No, sir. Q. — And yet you met the masters and did not meet the vessels at sea? A. — Yes. sir Q. — So that when you speak of these vessels being in port ^° and engaged in sealing you rely now, as 1 under.>i'^nii(l yon. on what the cajttains told yon? A. — 1 relied on — Q. — Are you, or are you not. relying on what the cajttains told you in that October, lS8(i? A. — As to their being seal- ers? Q. — Yes. A. — Yes. sir. and also the talk in town. Every sealer was w«'ll known. Q. — And from that talk you are speaking in regard to those vessels that were eiigagetl in sealing that year? A. — Yes. sir. Q— And the pame thing in regard to San Francisco? A. — I met masters of the vessels on(> time and another. Q.- How many did you meet in ISSO? A.— I couldn't tell you that. Q. — So that you rc'iuire to have the names of the vessels suggested to you before answoi'ing mors' definitely in regard to what ' essels were engaged in sealing': A. — All of tlieni; yes, sir. 40 60 551 111 10 20 30 40 io 6o (K. i'. MiiM'i — rioHK.) Q. — Now .voii tli> iH'l prclciid, j^ < 6" ^ iohiC Sdences Corporalion ■1^^ O ;\ 23 WIST MAIN STMIT WIUTIi.N.Y. MSM (716)172-4503 ■^ if iii^i \m ■lIlM,.!. 20 55« (K. V. MiiuT — Cm»8.) Q. — WIm'II wiib tlu' tlrst tiiiit' you huw bfr? A. — I wiw her till- liiMl tiiiit*. I lliink— (i. — ('«ii .you niv«> iiH' |H>Hitiv<-ly 1Im> .vcar wlicn .voii flrnt Hiiw that Hhip? A. — I cannot aiw you the yi-ar p«mitivt'l.v that I tii-Ht Haw Iiit. ii. — You in«'iitiouf«l M'cini; lior In 1S!»4; are you poHltlve uh to that? A. — I know I miw her in '81. (2. — ("an you ^ive me any other year in which you are posi 'O the vou Haw her? A. — No. nlr, I cannot. Q.— The "Otter?" A.— 1 saw the "Otter" first in "SI. ii. — ("an you jiive nu' ponilively another year? A. — No, Hir. I cannot. (2.— The "Alexander?" A.~Tho "Alexander"' I naw in •S(l. seen her Keveral tinieH hIiicc that, but I could not |;lve the iMtHltive year. Q.— The "ie>r«»" I Haw in 'SM. Q. — Where did you Hce her? .\. — in Neah Hay. o you know who were tlu> owners at that time? A. — I think Mr. Handy. Q. — lias he a wharf? A. — Not that I know of. Q. — Are you positive you naw her lyinjj at a wharf? A.— Yen, sir. (i. — Men on board of her? .\. — I sundy was talkinK with Home men on board of heiv Q. — Were you on board of her? A. — No, air; I don't think I wan. il. — Where did you nuH-t tlu' men who were on board of her with whom y«»u were talking? .\.— I couldn't recolhnt that. ij. — It anioiinlH to this: Some one told you she was in port, 50 that is all you mean? .\. — No, sir. Q — You actually saw the vessel? A. — I used to take the wharves In everv dav, as evt-rv seafaring nuiii does, g.— In 18X7? a!— Yes, sir. (i. — What niiikes vou nVU<: to say you saw that vessel In 1MS7? A.— NoihinK spi-clal. (J. — Can you tell me every other schooner (hat was in port at San Francisco at the same timt>? A. — I don't think I could, every one. Q. — You had no more business with the "San DieRo" than to with the others? A. — Tin e was a friend of mine that was on her that year. Q. — What was his name? .\.— Crews. Fie is now dead. (}.- Was he on the boat in 1SH7? .\.— He was on the boat in 1MM7. (J.— At the time she was in |M»rt? A.— When she came in iMirt. Q.— >Vas he on her in 1888? A.— I could not tell you as to that. 40 553 (K. 1'. Miiu-r— <'i-oKH.) Q. — What oIluT wnlinp v^'hsi'In did you sw in Han Fran- dsM'o at that llnu' tliat .v attoiit? A. — Well. tli<*r<> aro ho many of tlu>ni tliat I cannot t-all (o mind. Q. — .\r«' y«»ii iMmitive alK>ut IIiIh vchkcI? A. — Yen, sir; the "San JoH«*" I know I Haw tlM'n*. The CommiMtriuners then rose. 10 20 30 40 in r. ) OommisBionfln nnder the Oonvention of Febnuury 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Ohamben of the legialative Assembly, At Victoria, December, 16, 1896. At \{):'.W a.m. the CouiniiHHionerH took their HentH. The ('ommiHHi<»ner ou tlie jtart of tlie I'nited htateB: — The ConiniiHNionerH are n-ady to diH|Kme of the quenticm whieh wan ivwrviMl yentiTday. Tlie (juention put by Mr. H(»dwell wan an followH: "Wliat in your experienee an to tin* pro|»or- tion (»f HealH whieh are hmt by hnntei-s in Milling? I m«>tin what in the proiMtrtion of mmiIr they lone compared with tlione tlH'y Ket?" l'|Km the conBideration then t;iven to tliat qucHtion the t'onimlK onera apparently eoncluded at that time that they would not enter upon that line of examination. There wan no formal rulini; u|K>n it; but, even if there had Ihh'U u foniuil rulin{r, in view of the fact that it came up incidentally, and wan not caiffnlly conniderefl, we wouhl not fe<*l bound by it. In fact I think I can nafely nay that the ( 'ommiHHionerH do not feel themnelvcH abmdutely b)Minl neiKl not fe4>l embarraHHe^l by any HUppoHition that the < 'ommiHHionerH are not willing to hear HUitgeHtionH {Ktint- in^ out (hat they hav)> made errorn or mintakeH in rulini;H wliich they have enteivd at any time. The rcHult Ih, taking; thin i|ueHtion with what ban npp4>nrpd from the counnel for the I'nited Staten, including what wan rc.id by them fmm the answer of the Tnite*! Htaten, that It ih apparent both parties have shown a desin* to enter utmui this line of invest i^rat ion. The objections were raimn) by tile ('ommiHHionerH and not by the counsel. Thin, however, does not conclud<> the nnitter, an it Ih fre<|u«>ntly the ri^ht and duly of a judi«-ial tribunal to interfere when, tnmi itn own stand|Kiint, it hcch that an incidental isniie which conn Kcl deHii-«> to raine Ih liabU> to renult in protracted InvcnliKa- tton, and with a practical renult very doubtful, and perhnpH whctlly immaterial. The t'ommlHHioners have carefully re- conHidi-nnl thin matter, and have come to a concluHltm which tla-y think will pr«»t«'ct every rijjhl which can be cInimiMl on either nide. and which enalden them to practically control this line of InveHtiKation. which they re^rard at the mont nf iiaviuK a very remote bearing on the cane. The tpieHtion put by Mr. IttNlwell relaten, not to any theory, but to the pructical obHcrvatiiUi of a person enKa|;ed in the huHlneRM of catching nealn — bin own experience. .\n examination of the .\nierican ri'prlnl of the jroceiMlInK^ at Paris fortiflcH what the ConimlHHionerH have a riftht t«» ai^sume an an historical bict, that thiH <|ueHtion wan one which wan sharply and earn- estly contested by both (loveniments and cn)>able of inv«dv- inu an amount of proof almost unlimited. Therefore the ( 'oniniissioners. while dis]K)sed to allow this line of pro«if to M :^ii! .ii> mv' SS4 (K. V. MiiuT— CnwH.) bo ojK'ni'd up. fei'l i1 ne^'KHiirv to i-oHtrirt iiiid limit it td tho character of ovidpnc«> HiiKRVHttHl bv the qiicHtioii put by Mr. Kodwell, that is to wiy, tlw'.v liiuit it to tiic practicnl ex perience of witnoNseH describing what haH occurred in their own experience. They aiKo limit tlie number of witneHHCH, to allow not more than six to b<' <'alled on the question on either side. lo The Commissioners also present to citunsel an alternative which they have no power to direct couns«>l to accept, and which, therefore, cannot be made an order by the romniis- Bioners unless counsel agree to it. The alternative is. tliar instead of calling witnesses here, coii.isel on either sid«>. if they agree, may put in references to the American reprint covering this matter, doing this by mere r«'ference. That will enable counsel on either side to put in. f(»r example, not only what is found in the cas«' of the Oovernment which the counsel n>presents, but what is f(Mind in the case of the other 20 Oovernment, or in the report of the connnission whi«'li ac companies those cases. That is to say. Mr. IMckinson. on his side, could put in, by reference, anything which appears touching this matter in the American reprint, all the vol umes included, and Mr. I'et«'rs. on the other side, could put in anything which appears in all the volumes touching the same matter. That would be a matter for agreement be tween counsel. We are not prepared, as suggested by my learned associate, to say absolutely that the number of wit- nesses shall b«' six. That is merely what occurred to us 30 would be a sufficient numlM'r. It should, however, be limit ed l)efore we enter on the inquiry, unless, of course, in con- tingencies which may ha])iM'n, the fonimisioners, for good reasons, may make a change in the limitation hereafter. Mr. j'eterh: — Mr. Dicki'iton and i):>self agree that six wi' nesses will in all pntbability be (|uite sufficient on eitlwr side. 80 far as we are concerned the difficulty presents il self, that our case in this matter has been closed t(» a ciM'tiiir extent; l)ut I suggested to Mr. Dickinson that we cannot nt .Q once pick up the witnesses we would like to examine on this matter, and that there would be no objection to our putting in that evidence in any of the following casec. to be used in this case the same as though taken Ium-o. The (Commissioner on the part of the I'nited Slates: — The Commissioners ngive that there is no objection to that. I ought to say that this )>road question has not been put to Captain Miner, if I recollect correctly. Mr. I>ickins«m: — I asked him about his personal experi 50 ence. your Hononr. The Commissioner on the part of Ihe I'nited States* — To a certain limited extent. I think it but fair for you to un- derstand that you are entitled to ]Mit the broad <|uestion ttt him at some time. CrosB-examine.tion of Captain Miner continued by 8ir C. II. Tupper: 60 Q.— When did you last see the "I'nger?" .\.— 1 couldn't say as to the year; I saw her last al Hand Point. Q. — You are not positive as to wlinl lime? A. — I am n tluit yon hiiw tlu'in lioth in 1HH7 or \HHH? A.— Y«'H, Hir. y. — Would yi>n h«> MurpriHed to know that the "Nargai" was lost Ht'fort' that date? A. — I would. H. — You know she wan lost at wa? A. — She was lost, '" y.'», sir. Q. — W<»uld you undertake to swear that she was not lost in 1881? A. — I wouldn't undertake to swear when she was lOHt. Q. — >Vhen did you see the "liBura?" A. — I saw the "Lau- ra" in Han Pranciseo. 0.— When did you sw her? A.— In 1888 or 1889. (/. — Do you know that (/aptain Hans<'n bought her? A. — I had heard so. Q. — Do you «i lember the year he bought her? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you hear what he bought her for? A. — No, sir. (J. — Do y«)U know what her value was? .\. — I underHtood that she was offered for about f 21100. (). — What would yon consider her value? A. — I should say that was about her value. Q. — What sort of a ship was she? Fast sjiller? A. — She was supposed to Im» a moderately good Hailer. (J. — What were her lines? A. — She was rather a sharp U) veHwI. Q. — Do you know when she was built? A. — I do not. (). — Do you know what she was built of? A. — Built of On'gon pine. y. — Do you know her tonnage? A. — 22 to 25 tons, I sliould think. Q. — You would not undertake to say? A. — No, sir. Q. — You would not undertake to say she was over 19, would you? A. — No, sir. All the means I had of knowing is look- ing at her, about the size. 40 H. — Where did that sale take plaee that you heard of? A. — I didn't say I heard of a sah?. Had b<*en <»ffered. Q.— Offennl what? A.— ♦2.tM»0. (i.— Whew? A.— Han Franelseo. Hfe Ik.: iiwii m 1 ■ll»nt from thv KusHiau Hidv over tothf AiiH'ricnn side? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wliut c-u>irsi> did you tiiki' from tin* KuhhSud waters? A. — iKxamitiiiiK chart) — I cuiiie directly across. (I. — For what point iu the Hea did you make? A. — Wher- ever I could And seals, from here over (indicating). (i.— "NVhere did yoii begin liiinTing? A. — I sealed — (i. — For instance, where did you start from? A. — Hoiith of *.'o|»]ier Islands. Q. — And what course di«i you make? A. — AlM)Ut east. Q. — Wliere would that bring you out? A. — Itring me out tiliout latitude 5.^1; I iH'gan sealing, if I remenilH'r, about Ion- •filiide west t7.J. <2. — As near iis you can reim'ml)er? A. — Yes, sir. (}. — And where did you then jiroct'cd? A. — I hunted a lit- tle further eastward than that. (i.— To where? A.— To aliout 170. y. — IHd you purposely keep out of the old sjwt? A. — No, tiir. Q. — Were you atraid of seizures in 1S8!>? A. — I didn't liave any fear of that. Q. — IMd you keep n lookout for tlie cutters? A. — Kept a lookout always. t (j. — This point that you indicate on the chart is outside. or practically outside, of Iho track of the cutters, is it not? .\. — As I undei-ftand, tliey cruise the whole sea within a ra- r do you not know; fiiat tliey are more on that track tlian on any other? A. — Yes. sir; take their course from Ounalaska. Q. — As a matter of fjict. you kept away from tlie track in iSSJ). A. — No more than I would from any otiier plitce. Q. — As a matter of fa«-t. did you or did you not,? A. — I did not cross that. Q.— Did yon make ItogoslofT Island in ISSft? A.— I don't lenienilMM- of having made it. Q. — Do you remember of going over that far? A. — I iliink I was that far. (i. — How near did you go to the American side in that sea- son of 1880? A. — Do you mean coast? Q. — For instance, over towards this direction (indicating) in which yon were making towards tlie islands? A. — Oh, T lliiiik probably about (>0 or 70 miles. Q. — Show me on the chart? A. — The near«'st I must have ln'cn was somewher<> about here (indicating). Q.— What is that in latitude and longitude? A.— Be- tween longitude IttO and 170 west, and about 55 north luti- t ude. Q. — Then you got no nearer to T^nimak, for instance, than that in hunting? A. — No, sir, not that I can remenib«'r. y. — Now. when did you go out of the sea in 1889? A. — In 1880 I went out of the sea about the latter part of August. if I reiiiemlier right. i\. — Through what pass did you go out? A. — I couldn't siiy wh«>ther I went out through Unimak or Akitan. Q. — Are yon certain that you went out of either? A. — I went out one or the other. Q — In 1890 what was vour course? '..—In 1890 I was ill Ihe "AIHe I. Alger." (^— Fitted out where' A.— Fitted out at Seattle. I' 'i r?«;:M lie 'X ■A: , i: !;l Li? ill if' .,,1 ll' '||^'l^'^ lO 20 5S8 (K. I'. .Miiu-r — rroHn.) Q.— Wliu tlUfd lior out? A.— Mr. NickiTHUu; I inouu Mr. NickiTHon puid for it. Q. — Wlitit biiMiiicHH plHci* wtiH hIk' flttiHl Diit rliiftl^ in H<>- attle? A.— rhieli.v at HcliwabaclM-r'B. Q. — Wen* you Imt uiUMtcr? A. — Y«'h, «>. Q.— For wliat cruiw* did sin? HI <»ut? A. — Healing in Ufbring Hon. y.— Tho Aniorican Hide? A.— Vf», Hir. ti.— In wluit niontli did .vou lit out? .\.— Fitted out in January; fitted out for tlie ll<'lirinK Hon. d in Itelirinit Hen on tlie chart? A. — I Healed «>ntin'ly around the iHlnndn. Q. — You mean north, wiuth, eant and wesJ? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How far away from them? .\. — The neareNt I was to the iHlnnds wuh 4(t miles. (J. — ^Vbere did you low«'r the boats first after Koing into the sen? A. — It would Im« a hard matter for me t«) say; wherever I firHt saw a seal. Q. — You oannot tell me? A. — No. sir. Q. — No idea? A. — No, sir, I have none; nothing to re- frenh my memory with. Q. — You oannot tell me where vou put the boats down for 30 the first tin>e? A.— No. sir. Q.— Whether .10 milen from the pass, fiO or 90? A.— No, sir. . Q. — What time did you get into the sea? A. — Home time the first part of July. Q. — What time did you leave? A. — I loft that year in September. Q.— What time? A.— The first part, along the first part of H«>ptemb«'r. Q. — You don't remember the week? A. — No, sir, I don't '^ rememlMT the w«>«'k. Q.— In 1801 you did not go into tlu' Bea? A.— No, sir. I did not. Q.— And 1892 vou did not go into the Hea? A.— No. sir. Q.— Where did you go in 1892? A —In 1892 I went to Copi)er Island. Q. — When you said you did no( go int. the Hea, iif eourse you meant on the .\meriean bide? A.— 1 did go into tlie Hea; I w«'nt to Ounalaska. and tlien turnid out of the Hea again; I went to Copper iHliiuds. Q. — Hut you did not seal «»n the .\meriean side in 1892 at all? A.— No. sir. Q.— Whew did you fit out in 1892? A.— In Henttle. Q. — For the same eruis*'? A. — Yes, sir, for the sara*? crnise. Q. — Same eruise in point of tim«'? A. — Ye.s. sir. Q. — And the same jteople fitted you out? A. — Tlw same p«*ople. Q. — What was the name of that firm? .\. — ^^Hehwabaoher. Oo Q.— In 189.' wrt'cki'd, wcri'ii'l jou, in that year? A. — In •»4. (2.— IMdnJ von «rv vour wriM-ki'd v«'hh«'I? to p-t a vcHwl to tuk<' tLt* plai'i' of A. — I tli au'l t1ttn. H. — Wlicfe i4.o(), and huigitude about I(i7.:tt>. Q. — And how long did you seal tlierc in that vicinity? A. ^0 —I Healed the rest of the season in that vicinity, within 70 or so miles. Q. — And came otit of the Sea wlu-n? A. — I came out of the Hea, if I remember rightlv. about the inth of Septem- ber. (i. — Now, Captain, you told us yesterday, I think, some- thing about tlie valii" or cost of vessels for the sealing busi- iicNs being fixed in IH.sO and 1HH7 in San Francisco. l>o you remember stating soiiietliing to that effect? A.- -I remem- ber that ; yes, sir. j*^^ . (J. — Can you nanu> n doxt-n veHwlH in Hun Franeim-o or Vic toriti that were oriKinall.v huilt for tlit- tt|H.H'ial purpom* of walinK? A.— I tliink I can. Q. — Well, nanio tlieni; and for no other puriHtHc? A. — The "Alexander." the "Otter." of thoHe were huilt iM'fore lS.» the date. Q.— How nuiny liefore l.»*8S? A.— I knew them nil In-fore that time. I think. Q. — How ninny of ihow were built In-fore 18Ht»? A.— Not but one that I can recollect. Q. — You told UH yeHterday that the ve»Hel waH brouRhr from the eaHtern coaHt. did you not, captain? A. — I said I knew of one coming at that time. Q.— The year 1887. "Triumph?" A — Xo, I think the flrHt one I knew of c the ship would l)e cheaper after th<'y brought her around; she would be dearer. I should imagine she would cost fully as much. Q. — Would she not cost more? .\. — Not that I know of. Q. — Will you undertake to say that when they were bring ing these vessels from the east they could get suitable sealing vessels in the home port cheap«-r or as clieap as the vessels that they brought around from the east? A. — I wouldn't undertake to say that they could get chea|K-r veswls there. Q. — Will you answer my «niestion? Mr. Lansing:- -What year are you talking about? Sir C. H. Tupper;— 18Kfi. or 1887. when these vessels were bntught around. (To witness.) Q. — In the years when you know tlu-y bntught v«-ss(>ls from the «-ast, will you undertake to say that thev Itrought them notwithstanding they could get vessels suitabh- for the business in Han Francisco for a chea|K'r |>ric(-? \. — Yes. sii. Q. — Now. what vessels c«»uld they get cheaper than the one you had in mind at the time they brought her around, what vessel was on the market? .\. — I have no way of tellin;; what the vessels tlu-y brought around, cost. 10 20 33 40 r)o ;6, (K. r. Miiur— i'nmy.) Q. — l>u .vuii kiK'w iiiij- vfHM'l (liat wum in tin* iiinrkot for will' Miiitablt* fur m>HliiiK< wlirn hIi(> did roiut- nroiiiid? A. — Tlien> wort' H«*v«'i'al, I ciiiiiiot fall llM'tn t<» iiiiiid. Q. — Will ,v«»u Hwt'ar IIm'I-*' wen- m'Vfi-al in llw waHon hIic waH hronKlit annind, un the niai-l«'t for miI<>, Huilablt* f(»r wal- ing? A. — V«'H. sir. ii. — Vou will Hw«-ar lo that |HtHitiv<>l,v and diHtim-tly? A. — Yt'H, hIp. Q. — You Ha.v yoii cannot name one of tlimi? A. — No, Bir. H, — Nor tliclr owncrn? A. — Xo. »ir. (J. — And what ,v«'up aiv you n-ft-rrlni? to? A. — ISWi and 1MH7. Q.— To two .ViMUH. IMWI and 1SK7? What time of th«* yv»r wen* th«'Mt» vccMfM'lH on the nnirk«'t for Kale? A. — An.v tinit* <»f year. Q. — T«*ll nu' tin' tini«'? A. — Xo partii ular tim«'. Q.— You cannot fix it? A.— I know in tli<> fall of both yvttVH I c(»uld hav«' houKlit vchm'Ih in Han Frani-im-o. (i. — What month? A. — Xovcniltcr, Hav. and iU'ccnibcr. (J.— Of what year? A.— IHWi and ISMT. Q. — How many vchhcIm could you have boujjht? A. — If I had had tlx' money I could havo iHiu^ht Hcvcral, I think. Q.— >Vhat makcH you think that? A.— I heard of their beiuK offen'd for nnle. Q. — How did you hear, had you occnHion to look for them? .\. — No, Hip, I had no o<'caHion. Q.— >Yhat vcBBel had you at the time? A.— The 'Ten- elope." Q.— In 18S«? A.— Yes, Hir. Q.— And 1887? A.— YeH, hIp. Q. — \YaH 8he in Han Francisco in November? A. — Slie waH in thiH ]N)rt. (J. — And you were with lier? A. — Yep. hIp. (i. — Hut you kn«'W that, in Han Francincti there were ve» rcIb? a. — I made a trijt to Han FrnnciHco. Q.— >Vlien did you make it? A.— 1 couldn't tell what time; Honu'where in the fall. (i.— ^VaH it (htober? A.— Xo. Q. — \\'n» it in Novendier? A. — November or I>ecembep. Q. — W«'r«' these veHBeln Ktill on the market in DcemlK-r of- ferine for Hale in Han Fr:ineiHco? A. — I talked — Q. — AnHwer my qucBtion. I want to know »h a fart wiiether these veHHelM were on the market in Han Fr.-inciHco for Hale in December when you went tht'Pe? A. — Yes, sip. wliich ever month I went there. (}. — Ibu you do not know what mt>nth? A. — Xo, sir. (J. — Can you come within a month of the numth? A. — I only named two nxmths. Q. — You have named three; you named Octoln-r, November and December? A. — I did not name October. Q. — You will swear it was eitln'P November or I>ecember of ISHfi? A.— Yen, hIp. (J. — And you were in the ''I'enelojie"? A. — I had the "l'en«'lo|)e" in my ('hapge. Q. — And you took hep into San Fpancisco? A. — No, sip. Q. — \Yent alone? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Left your ship here? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I understood you were here from tin some time in the spring of 1SS7? .\.- ception of a short trip. Q. — now ninny we««k8 wer«> you two weeks. (i. — >Vill you say you were not absent a month? A. — I was not abs«>nt a month. Q. — You are positive as to that? A. — Yet. sir. fall and until f was, with the ex- absent? A. — Probably l!!l 10 20 'ih hfi- il WHH XovoiiiImt or Ih'i-i'iuhfv. y. — Whul (lid you jrH? A. — Xo. Hir. (,. — Hoalinj; vi'bhpIh? A.— VcbhoIh that would Iw Huitablo foi senlint;. H. — How do you know, did y<»u examine any of tlit'ni? \. — I took tiM'ir wurdH for it. Q. — Arc you |»oBitivp tlu'y mentioned they were Huitable for HtMilinK? A. — YeH, nir. (i. — \Yhere, on the ulreel— converHiuK on Ihe street? .\.— I don't know whether on the Htre«'t or in Kalooni*. Q. — And you eannot give me the name of one ninftle indi vidual who told you that he had a vewHel Hiiitahle for waling' on the nuirket without a purehap:'r? A.— \o, Hir. Q. — You rannot ev<'n f,'"**"" n name. I nuppOHe? A.— T(k» many yeara Itack to remember that. Q. — You wiy you were there about two weeks? A.— I think about that time. Q. — Did you report the faet to your owners, or any one interested in tin- tr.ide h«'re? A.— Not that I know of. 30 Q- — You had no oeiaHion to pay particular attention to the market, had you? .\.— Xo more than b«'inR in the buBinenn we always converse' about sueh thinRs. Q.— How lonK after tb.-it was it that the vt-ssels began to eome from the eastern |K)rts? .\. — They had already come from the eastern ports. Q. — And were still coming in ln«-reaHing numbers? A.— Yos, sir. Q. — And have continued to eome? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wh. do you call the beginning of the period whfn 40 s(>aling tot.ij a start — Pelagic sealing, as we «'all it — ocean Healing — from these iMirts? .\.— I don't know; I started to seal myself — Q. — I do not mean that. \Nhen did it tak«' its best start as a commercial enterprtse? Are you familiar enough with the business of either port to tell aie that? A. — I have lieen in the biisinesH all the time. Q. — Referring to y.iur familiarity with the business, when did it, as a commercial venture and a general enterprise, take its start? A. — >Vell, I should say it was in its most flourish- 3° ing condition, if that is what is meant, in 1K87. Q.— You would put it about 18H7 as its most flourishing condition? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — There w«'re more in th«' business in 1886 than prev iously. w«'re tliere not? .\. — I think there were a few more v(>ssels out in ISHti than 1HS.~). Q. — Were there onlv a few more vessels in the business in 18S« than l«8,->? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — But in 18H7 it took a greater start? A.— Yes. sir. go Q- — And vessels suitable for that I suppose brought an in creased value t.y the incr<>ased enterprise in 1887? -V. — I think a man that was in the business would have been wil ling to h;ive paid more for a vessel. Q. — The prices of vessels would naturally increase with the increased interest in the business, would they not? A. — The value of a new vessel — the values would remain the same of a new vessel. Q. — As a matter of fact were not vensels in the coasting business turned into the sealing business? A. — Yes, sir. >^>3 I 3 20 30 ■10 30 (K. P. MilHT- riOHH.) y.— Was It iio( iHH'aiiHc ilic Hvaliug biiHincMii would pay bot- tiT than tlu' riiaiitliij; IniHiiirMM? A.— lU-niuw tlit-y had a thanci' for a hii|j;fr profit. Q.— And thi>r«'furu a veHwl Huitaltiv for Hruliug was of more value than a v«hh«'I Kuilabl«> for couHtiuK only? A.— I can- not Ha.v an to that. Q.--Y«»u nro unable to jrivc nu- an opinion on that nt all? A.— No, Hlr. y.— Yon would not like to nav? A.— No, nir, I would not lilie to say that they were. Q.— Hut there waH more hco|m' for a veHsel in HenliuK than in roaHtiuR? A. — YeH, Hir, in eh;infe. Q.— That would inereuHe the value of the conHter'R pro- perty, would it. on the mnrlcet? A.— It would inereaHe the rhance of aelliuK an old voHHel. Q.— With what market valneH are you familiar, thoHe in San PraneiHco, or thoBe in Vietoria, in ISHfi and 1MS7? A.— More In San FranelMeo. Q.— Almost wholly? A.— Yen Wr. Q. — And it Ih of that market thai w>u like to upeak with more certainty than the other? A.- Ycm, Mr. Q. — There are two different inarkctK. are tliere not; priceM differ, construction of vcHHelB, a^'l coBt of provlHions? A. — I BuppoBe so. Q. — There was a dilTerence in IsSfi ard ISSi. was there not, a preater difference? A. — I think a r''<'ater difference. Q. — There Ik even a diffen-nce to<1iiy, is there not, in priccH i;enerally? A. — In certain arti«'les, yea, sir. Q. — What was yoi.r first year for outfittinf: nt the port of Victoria again? A. -In 1887. Q. — Who did your busineHs fi)r you? A. — I did my own buHineBR. Q. — You had no mi*ldle men, no a^^'ntB? A. — No. Kir. Q. — Where did you get your HUpplieH? A. — I pot the bulk of my Bupplien, I think from Mr. Earle. Q. — Of Victoria? A. — Yen, sir, I got Bonie from Saund- ers. Q. — Did yon get any from S«'nttle? A. — In the way of provisions, I think not. (|.— Will you undertake to say that yon did not get a part <»f your supplies from R<«attle? A.— Jn the way of provisions I will undertake to say so. (J.— But as to anything else, you will not say? A. — No, Hir. Q.—nid you know the A. I». IIot«>lling Co., in Seattle? A. — Yefl, sir. Q.— Did you deal with them? A.— Nq, sir, it was a liquor liouse. Ci.— You dealt witii Swabn.her. you t«»ld us, a little while ago G() ? A. — That is another vessel entindy. Q.— You have dealt with them? A.— Yes, sir. (i.— Now, did you deal with them in 1H87? A.— No. sir. (i. — You are positive? \. — rositive. Q. — la there anyone else yon would deal with in Seattle? .\.— There was one I did deal with in Seattle, the Hardy Mall Arms Co. Q.— Did you deal with them in 18S7? A.— I did, with the "Penelope." (i. — Can you give us any i«lea of your bill there? A. — I Kliould say somewhere about f2(M>; I bought some guns. Q.— What was your total «'ost of outfitting in 1S87— the "l'<'nelo|H»"? A. — As to provisions, about fl,200. (J. — What elm', where did you get those? The Commissioner on the jmrt «»f the riiited States: — Have von not been all over this? m -t' ( 'i iIh»- lO 564 (E. r. Miner — CnmK.) Sir ('. n. TupiH'r: — I liav(> not; not tlitiHe i|iK>HliunH. \Vitu»'8»: — As I said b«'fon', Mr. Eiirli'. Sir ('. II. Tupju'r: — Dot-w jour Honour nu-an this morning? Tlu' < 'oniniitiHi«»nfr on tlu* part of tin* I'nilt'd St.itfs: — Yi-h- tcnla.v. Sir ('. II. Tupptr:— Xo; I did not p* into tlu- outtlttinjj of the "ront'lope." (To wilucHH): What waH the eost of proviH ions? A.— About f 1,2(10. y. — Wliere did ,vou net them? A. — In Vietoria. frtuu Karle, Hauudera and different «)n(>H. Q. — Who else? A. — I thinii I fjot ni.v meals from flood- aire. (i.— You include the meats in tlie |l,2(tO? A.— Wiien I s]M'ali of provisions I mean meats and K'tieeries. (i. — .Vnd what were your other expenses? A. — M.v ani- -O munition hill was about f:tr>(). Q. — Wliat did vou pet in tlie way of ammunition, liow niucli powder? A. — Mv powder most all eainu' from Hardy Hall's. (j. — I did not asl< where it came from; but how mueh did you take? A. — Seven or eight kejjs; I e«)uldn't tell to a keg. ii. — Are you postiv«> it was not more than eight kegs? A. — Yes. sir. (i.— How many sacks of buckshot? A. — I believe about 'M>. 30 il. — How many primers? A. — Ten ov (weTve thousand. i}. — How many boats had you on that cruise? A. — I had five boats and a stern boat. ii. — I suppos4> in making your estinuite you took into con- sideration tlie cruise on which you were to go? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — It was a nine months' cruise? A. — P^igth or nine months' cruise. (j. — How many shots did you <-alculate for each boat? A.— From "(Ml to 1,(MM». (j. — Is that the orrsist long, but I have a purpose in asking (he question. Witness: — It depends on wlio tlu' Iniiiter is, there is such a ry dirterence between men in shooting. ii- — .Are you positive that you did estimate for 7(M( shots only in a seastm? .\. — No. I think it more likelv I esfmiited f(»r I, (MM). ii. — Are you positive that that supply of powder for tlic number of men and boats you took, was the usual supply? .N — Yes, sir. 'i. — You would be surprised to learn that (i(MMM> rounds of ammunition was usually taken? 6t) Mr. Lansing;— For how nniiiy sealers? Sir ('. H. Tapper: — We are speaking of the "Penelope" now. Witness: — I never took that much. ii. — You would be surprised to learn that it w"s taken among s«'alers? A. — I would Ite, yes, ■Mv, 10 30 565 (K. 1*. Miller — CrosH.) Q. — Would ,voii Hiiy iih a inaUor of fiirt Hint tliat wuh not tlio aiiioiiiit for a Hiiiiilar oiitlil to yoiii-H from Victoria for a «'riiim>? A. — I Hlioiild Hav it was a larp'r amount tlian I «>vHtimat<' for f 1.- '2W) worth of proviHiouH? A. — I Himplv l)ou};ht wiuit 1 tluuiKht waB n«'«<'H8arj' for the voyn};*'. Q. — What numlMT of un'n had you? A. — I think I had 21. Q. — Did yon calculate it by the |1(» allowance? A. — Xo. »ir. Q. — That did not enter into your head? A. — No. nir. nt to judge. Q. — Have you known any better vessel Mince of :W» tons? A. — I did not know how good she was; I couldn't t«'ll. (i. — If you had be.Mi able to comjiare that vessel with tin* craft yon have known in actual work, you opinion might be •lirt'ercnt with regard to her value? .\ — Y«'8, sir. (J.— You will not undertake to swear (bat that vessel waa not suitable for sealing purposes? .\. — No, sir. Q.--Y0H saw her only in ISSJt? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — You nev«'r saw her before? .\. — No. sir. to Q. — She was in a very bad condition, was she not? A. — .Vs regards hnii not verv had, but as n'gards rigging, very had. Q. — Has (he climate of OnnalaBkn a good effect on a von sel lying there without repair for a few yearB? A. — No, better than any other. Q. — Ib it not worse, do yon know anything about the eRoct of tlie climat(> of that region on a veBsel? .\.— The cliniat*' iS very damp. H\ 1 ' 1 1 $ I' , 1 r w .11 !' ^\\d in so mdny dilTorcnt wayH. You niiKht say of what seal I had shot and lost, and what I had shot at altogether, not B"nowing whether they were killed or not. Q. — I will put the question again? Are you sure that you have not said in Victoria that you lost no more than two per cent, of the seals you shot at? 10 Mr. Dickinson: — May it please your Honours, that ques- tion is never asked except as an impeaching question, and he has to name the person to whom he said it. The fact that some boast was made, that when not under oath the witness lias said something on a matter not materially at issue, is not competent on cross-examination, unless they fix the time and place. It is only nnterial to ask such questions when it is proposed to im]>each the witness. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Do :o yon claim. Sir Charles, that a question of that sort is very material? It seems to n>e hardly a point on which you can contradict him. Sir C. H. Tupi>er:'— I hope to bring it much nearer the case in the end; but it is impossible for me to disclose fnmi time to time the exact bearing of (piestions. The Commissioner on the part of Iler Majesty: — Of coiirhe you cannot contradict it, unless you show the pn^'ise time !ind place. I think a cross-examiner sometimes aslis a ques- tion, the answer to which may not be competent to him. It is not every question you ask you can g«'t an answer to th.it you can contradict. Sir C. H. Tupper:— I am aware of that, and I am not far mmrt from my leanied friend. I am willing to suffer the consequences <»f the way I may jtut a (jucstion. To witness: Captain, you are not a braggart; I suppose you an' not in the habit of going around and talking through your hat about sealing? \. — I don't know. Q. — You are not in the habit of blowing your horn too much? Mr. Dickinson: — Sir Charles, who will swear to that on the stand? Sir C. H. Tupper:— I think the Captain is not that style of man, and I am willing to say so. His modesty has been most <'lmrming I think in regard to his Khooling. To witness: — Let me know what you decide to say to that i|UC8tion, whether as a matter of fact you will deny that yo\i have in Victoria on seveiiil occasions claimed that you lost no more than two per cent, of the seals you shot at? A. — I wouldn't want to deny it, because it might have be«'n put in !i different way from what I take it now. (J. — Now, Captain, I want to ask you another question. I have been speaking, and you have been answering in refer- ence to seals you shot at. Now, of seals you actually shot, did vou as a matter of fact lose many' ;o 40 55 (o The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Now, do you call him as one »f your six experts? Sir C. H. Tupper: — I am cross-examining him, and taking iidvnntage of any candour he may exliibil in the box. Mr. Di«kins(m: — I passed him on those qnestiims. Sir C. H. Tupj)er:— I think I am entitled to get what I can fioui this witness. I) may seem a immIIous attem]it on my ii i\:y M ':!' -)•: mm p ' WW i 1 ' ■"') ■i i ill ■'i lii 'i!«'i.' 10 20 30 40 so 60 568 (DisfUBHiun.) I»irt, hut I think th«> Ciiptiiiii Ih pniiK to he <|uit(> nintlid mu\ tiHHiHt liotli roiinH4>l !in<1 the <*nnrt. TIm' Coinmissioncr on the piirt of the Tnltod 8tnlPH: — Do yon citll liini 118 one of yonr «'XiH'rtH? Sir. V. II. Tnj^iM'r: — I have not called this witnoHS, he in not mine. The ronuniNHioner on the jiart of the Cniled Htati's: — Should .vou examine him aH one of .vour experts? Sir C. II. Tu|»per: — Of eourm» I munt defer to the <'«»urt. I Hubmit that queHtion in ontHfl-examination. and I proiM>He to ask him that if I am permitted. Mr. I'eterH: — We Ruhmit to the rommissioners, that at all events aeeordin}; to tlie praeti«"e in our cttui'tH, when the wit- ness is put on tiie stand hy one sidi', the other side ean cross- examine that witness on any question material to the case, wheth«'r oiH'ned in a direct examination or not. The ('n: — I sit at the feet (»f my lenrner of witnesses. If he is examined upon that question, the other sid*> may re- examine him, and he stands as a wiin(>ss. If this can be don«> under the cover of <-ross-examination, every witness (troduced liere may be examined on this <|uestion witliout limit, and the rule made by the Commissioners is iivoided. I will not say evaded, because that may be con- sidered an unsuitable word, but avoided. I can say notli ing more about it. So far as I am concerned, and in tlie absence of an opjioil unity to confer with my learned asso- ciate, I must leave this to the judgment and good sense of tlie counsel. Sir C. II. Tiipper: — With that appeal, if j'our Honour will jtermit me, I am perfectly willing to settle this on the basis «»n which I a|iproached the (|Ucstion. I have a distinct recol- lecti notes, of this feature of the examination being prewnted by my learn- ed friend. Mr. Dickinson. I made a note to cross-examine on, and approached it with that inlenti(m. If the notes do not bear me out, and I have erred, I am certainly willing to defer to the court, and avoid for the moment going into this sub ject in this way; but I certainly claim the right that if tlie notes show as I am certain tliey will, that my learned friend went into this feature of the case, I claim the right to cross- examine fully on the subject, and nothing that his Honour, 569 (IMm-usHiun.) 30 tlu' (^(MiiiniHHioiu'r on the part of lli<> I'uitt'd HttitoH Iiiih hhU\, in in<'(tn8iHttr (linHC rirciimBtHiifOH. I there- fore iiHk that the notes Hlioiild he looked up, an it \h a Hiibjeet of importiinee, and, if tlie not<>H show that he wan examined, I tliink I will be ]K>rinitted to erot«H-exnmine him. Mr. Diekinson: — It was yesterday afternoon when this qu«>fltion came up, and p(>ndinf; the dtH-lsion of the Commis- 10 sioners on this question, I think they will remember I spec- ially said that I waived that line of examination. Hir C. II. Tupper: — There are five or six answers down on my not«'s, before we reaclievidi"nce, every ivason of justitv would indicate that ther«> should Im> a full crossex- amination upon them, and I think my h'arned friend will agnn* with me. if that be so. 20 The Cimimissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Last night, the witness answered some qm'sticms bearing upon the Muitter, and we determined what we would do, namely, let it stand over till moniing. After the announcement made this morning by my learnod associate, nothing was said by us siH'citi<'ally relating to that matter. We did not determine the bearing of our decision this morning u|)on the testimony that took place last night. Might this not be a fair solutiim of it? If the eviden^-e refenvd to last night beai-s upon the general question that we are considering, might it not be reasonable that Sir Charles should cross-examine upon it, and, of course, Mr. Dickinson re-examine upon that, and if necessary that could b<* a seventh witness under that view. We might hereafter determine whether this witness shall be treated as one of the witnesses on the part of Great Hritain or not; but if it wants to make use of a witness called by the other side its success might not b«» very great, and we might conclude hen-after that the witness had been adojtttnl iis one of the number of witnesses permitted to be called by that side. We might get over it in that way for the pres- ent, and in the end there miglit not be any serious question at all. If the evidence last night when looked at shows thiif the matter was gone into by Mr. Dickinson, and it still stands in the notes, of course it would be open in the ordinary way to cross-examination, unless Mr. Dickinson asks that it be stricken out. Mr. Dickinson: — The questions were preliminary, leading tiji to this when the question arose, and I would prefer to iiiive thos«' ])reliminary (picstions stricken out; because, aft(>r 5° the ruling of tlie court this morning, we would pii'fer to se- lect the six witnesses before we would be bound by the ones we put on. Sir C. n. Tupper: — I quite agree, if that be acceptable to the (Commissioners, that the (>xamination of this witness so far as regards hunting the seal and seal life, be 8trick«>n out. I (luite agree to stop my examination; but I want to call my IcaiTied friend's attention to the fact that he went on in re- (jiird to the scent of the seal, the wildntn^s of the seal, and to all those questions of natural history, and how a seal was ap- proached — a vast amount of examin(ii8«-UHHi«>Il.) wliPD Hliootin);. VtMir lIonoiirH will rfini>iiibcr the tt>Htiiii of K<'ttin|K them the witneHH Huid he did not shoot at all. The Commissioner on the part of ller Majesty: — Was not there something said like this: "Is that the reason why yon proved Buch a good shot?" Mr. Dickinson: — Yes, your Honour, but the question as to the number of seals that are shot by this witness thnt he gets was abandoned incidentally on the question coining U|i: hut the fact that he did not shoot was brought out. and tiie question is in here. As to what the conditions are und«>r which he would shoot or would not shoot, that question was, if the seal is to(» far distant, so that yoi; s(>e there is no chance of getting him vou do not shoot .u all. Ther<- 1 left it. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I sup- |>nqe the reason for not shooting when su far away is the pro- bability of not getting them? Mr. Dickinson :— Thnt is it. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— There was no question raised as to the cross-examination down to the last question Sir Charles Tapper asked, tliat is to si.v, as to the number of seals the witness shot out of those he flred 30 at. Mr. Dickinson: — The number of seals lie gets that he llred at. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: Xo. the number he shoots that he tires at, growing out of tlie question whether he was a good shot. There is no objection to the cross-examination so far. Mr. Dickinson: — But I distinctly abandoned going into that 4'3 question. The Commissioner on the part of the Uuil.d States:— If it is understood all around that this question up.^n which the Commissioners ruled is not to he opened up on cross examina- tion, unless it is opened up on the direct examination, and Mr. Dickinson strikes out of the notes tlio.oe few questions which raised the discnslon last night, does not that dispose of the matter for the present? 50 60 Sir C. H. Tupper: — May I ask in all earnestness how .ire we to distinguish that particular question of tin? exaniinatinn of my learned friend from those which follow all for the same purpose? My h>arned friend was exco'dingly candid yesterday. He announced in^fore going into this, his object. and he explained that he proposed to sho\v before this invest! gation was over that the Sea might be lite'ally teeininfr with seals, yet it by no means followed that Ix-caiisi' seals wt-re there and seen in great numbers a vessel would catch one solitary seal, and following along to demonstrate that he asked this question, it was only one of a dozen 01 two to show the risks, tlu' venturesome cliaiacter «)f the whole buRlnesR, thnt it was a speculation. After that he goes on to show that those seals are very wary, that on the appronch of ^an they disappear, that they can scent the vessel and the hunters, and di.<»appear. 1 fail to nndi'rstand how a part of this examination of this witness relative to seal life is to stand and the other parts excludr we reach that point about tlu! shooting will drop out— of course the evidence of this witness as to the habiis of the seals. Mr. Peters: — 1 would not have taken the objection jester day had it not been that we were stopped giving that class of evidence, and perhaps rightly so. The Commissioners ■ ^) now say that on that point tliey will hear a certain amount of evidence, and to that restriction I have no objection. I have a number of witneses here that I pro|M»8e to examine on this point if my objection is not sustained. It cannot do any great harm whether we get it from this witness, who seems to be a man of exp«'rience. or from other witnesses We would have examined some of our own previous witness- es on this point, and T am not quite sure whether they are obtainable to appear again. 20 The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It does not make any particular difference in the mere exami- nation of this witness, but it does make a great differen«:e whether we art» to go on with the understanding that a wit- ness called by either party may be examined under <'olor of cross-examination on this point, and then re-examined by the other side on the same point. Mr. Peter.: — You can judge fairly what will happen from what has h ippened. If I mistake not, this is the flrst wit- jo n*-'ss wc ha\ e examined on this point. Sir C. H. Tupper: — May I propose that we adjourn this cross-examination? It is a most important subject in the opinion, apparently, of both sides, and while we are most anxious to be fair to any suggestion from the Bench, I am Kure the Commissioners will understand that we are embar- assed by a sense of what we think necessary to be done In connection with the case in our hands. It is possible that by conference and looking at these notes we shall agree as to ^o what shall go out. Rut. standing here now, I am individual- ly embarassed in regard to the part to be eliminated. I re- fer to the question of seal life, and to go into that and do it justice I want to follow very closely what I understood to be the examination. Perhaps after a conference we could agree to strike out a large number of questions of this character, nnd. if so. my examination might stop here altogether. On the other hand, 1 mav ask the Court to permit me to go fully into it. ,Q The Commissioner on the part of the Tnited States: — I see ' no objection to examination on s<'al Ijfe, except on the qucK- tion as to what projtortion of seals which are shot are lost. Mr. Dickinson —By this witness? The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— By this witness. Sir C. H. Tapper:— That is one of the most imjwrtant parts of seal life as affects pelagic sealing. ^10 T|„, rommissioner on the part of the United States: — Can you not prove it by your own witness? Sir C. H. Tupper: — Surely we are not debarred from get- ting It from a liostile witness? The Commissioner on the part of the United States;— Is that the only point you want to (Toss-cxamine on? Sir C. 11 Tapper:— S.-al life. •Hi I ill i;l',. M m )'• I|i:i i;l!i:-^t :: 'f::! fm t I. h fit; 57i i^ll ^ (lliHcntMioii.) ■ii.: I.! IjIMt I'l -That lO 20 TIu' CuiniiiiKHioiuM- on tl»' pnrt «>f tin- I'liitcd HtatcH:- i8 u InrKV question. Sir C. H. Tnppor: — And lu'hinit' wnHnR. Thd. The Commissioner on the part of the rnit«d States: — Onr g«'neral con<'lusion that we announced this morning was with a view of restricting the examination into this inquiry. The rule we laid down did not cover the case of the cros-sexam- ination, although the spirit of it might very well apply to the cBBe of cross-examining a witness upon the matter. Sir C. H. Tui)per: — I quite agi-ee and it was for that r«>a8(m that we agrwd to drop everything in relation to it. 50 60 lO 20 573 (I-:. (". IJaktT— IMirct.) Tlu' <"oinmiHHi»MH'i' on tin- part of H«i' Maj«'Hty: — Wln'tluT vuu croHH-cxatuiu*' t)iii4 witncNH on th*' matter would Htrictly (It-pt'iid OH th«» point .vou have raim'd uh to wlivtlu'r It was );on«> into laHt nitrlit and w)i«'tlit>r tlic dirwt cxuuiinutiou would asHiHt Ml*. DictvinHon on tun Hide. Sir <'. H. TupiM'i-: — I (piitt; undi'i-Htaud tluit. Till' (*onnniH8ion«'r on tin* part of Ih'r Maj«'Ht.v: — Ilorc'aftt'r you < n witncRH on niattcrH not t{one into h,v liiH dir«M-t examination without that witniKH beint; ix-i-ounted a witni'ttH on your Nid«'. In thiH t-aw' you rannot do it unlt'8H it app<'arK Htiii-tly t«» ariwe out of the direct ex- aminatiou of Mr. DickiuHon. Sir C U. Tapper: — I quite agree. The < 'onimiHHioner on the part of the I'nited Slates: — My h-arntMl asHoeiate and I agree exactly on the matter. The exminatiou of the nuteu may dispose of the trouble. Kdgar Crow llaker was ealbnl as a witneus on the part of the I'nited States and dulv sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Dickinson. (i. — Mr. Itaker, how long have you lived 30 about? A.— Sime the l(»th of April. 74. in \'ictoria, (i. — Are you secretary of what is called the Pilot Board? A. — I am secretary of th«' Victoria and Esquinialt IMIot Au- thority. ti. — IIow long have you been so? .\. — lU years, I should tiiink. (i.— Then you were in 18^3. 1MH4, ISHo and 1886? A.— Yes, certainly. i-i. — Does that association own pilot boats" A. — No. Q.— Did it own pilot boats in 1880? A.— I think not. I 40 think there was one occasion uiion which I was authorized by the Pilot ('kimmissioners to ])urcha8e a pilot vessel, put her in my name in trust lor certain of the pilots, who at that time were compelled to l.uve the registration of a certain tonnage for a license pilot, and for that purpose only, (i.— What was that boat? A.— The "Carolena." ' Q. — When was it that they owned her? A. — I should tliink as far back as 1877. Q.— And they owned her in 1881 and 1885? A.— That is more than I can tell. My memory does not serve me. I do 5° remember distinctly purcliasing tlie vessel, and I ha])pen to know the date upon which I purchased her and what I gave for her. But when she was disposed of or at what figure I know nothing about her. Q. — I am not asking these particulars at all, Mr. Baker. Tiiat may be arrived at in some other way. But you did dispose of the "Carolena." did you? A.— Sold her? Q.— Yes; as trustee for the I'ilot Board? A.— Yes, upon the purchasing of a larger vessel. 'jo Mr. Peters: — Thei-e will be no cross-examination. The examination of the witness closed. William Munsie, already sworn and examined, was recalled ns ii witness for the Fnited States. Direct examiuation by Mr. Dickinson; 1 )', '4*\\ 1:1 lO 20 3«3 574 iWilliiun MiiiiHic— Hcciilh'H.) g. — Mr. AliiiiHi*', (lu yon kuuw a iiiau b.v tli<> uiuiic f»r Hi-rc iiult — Mifkac'l Huri'iiult? A. — \\m, Q. — With Huiiie ludiuu bluod iu liiui? A. — I do uut knuw that be haH. Q. — Dot's be keep au botel or a tavern or au iuu at Cbiyo- quot? A. — lie keeps an botel at AllK-rui. (i. — I'pon tbo Vaneouver eoast? A. — Yes, sir. y. — Ih tbat near iMayoipiot? A. — Yes. Q.— Where is this man? A.— lie is in town, 1 believe. Q. — Is he here now? A. — Yes. Q.— Whereabouts is lie? A.— 1 eannot tell .vou where he is now. Q. — Where did yon last see him? A.— I saw him in mv bouse. Q.— When? A.— This nioruinR. Q.— Did be n^ny at .vour bonse last nijjbt? A.— He did. Q-— r>o .vou know that we had a subpoena out for bim? A. — 1 did not. Q— Vou took him in a back. I think. Jasf nijjbt? A.— Yes Q.— WTtnt time of the nijfbt? A.— About the time the "Tees" left for the coast. Q.— You were down at the "Tees," I think? A.— Yes. Q.— At what lime of the nlubt? A.— I presume !(► o'eloek. Q. — Did you have this man with vou? A. — He was there. Q.— Down there? A.— Yes. Q.— What did you take him there for? A.— I did not take bim there. Q — Down at the "Tees," did not vou take him in a carriaKe there? A.— I did not. Q. — You telegraphed this man to come down, did vou not? A.— I did. Q. — You swear that y«)u did not know we were after him with a subpoena? \. — I did not. Q. — You did not take him to the boat to send him back to the coast? A. — No; Captain Roberts took bim to the boat to sign some cheques. Q. — What hour of the morning was this? A. — It was last oigbt. Q. — Y'ou were with him at the boat, were you? A. — Capt. Irving and I went down to the boat together, and he was there. He was very ill, and I took him to the house. Q. — Cannot you give me the hour? A. — About 10 o'clock. Q. — You were not there as late as 1 o'clock this morning? A. — I was not. Q. — Does not the boat sail at 10 o'clock? A. — I do not know what time she sailed. I did not wait until the time she sailed; I left. Q. — Will you swear you were not there as lato as mid night? A. — I will. Captain Irving. Captain Roberts and myself were there. Q. — Where did you take bim in a carriage? A.— I took bim to my house. Q. — Before or after the boat left? A.— Before the boat left; about 10 o'clock. Q. — Now when you were down at the boat — you know the 6o man who serves processes for the Ignited States? A. — That serves processes? Q. — Yes? .\.— 1 do not know him; I do not know any man that is in your employ. Q. — Will you produce this man Rereault in court? A.— If you have a summons for him 1 presume you could produce him. Q. — AVill von keep bim at your lionse until we can sub- poena liini? .\.— T do not know if he is there now. 40 50 57 iWilliitiii MiiiiHic — Kn-iillfd.) A. 11«- iiiiiy Ih- or T«'ch" luHt oiK>>t? 10 20 30 40 iO 6o H. — You ha VI' not tli*' imioti'Mt Idi-a? lu' may uut. Q. — Yuii know 111' (U«l not go on tli«' A.— Hi' did nut. Q. — Will you produrc hlui? A.— V«'8, I will, or rotUiT I will I'udeuvur to. CroHHi'xaniiuation hy .Mr. reters. Q. — You wt-ru aukcd about thJH nuin Hvifuult, lie livi'H ill Albt-rni, dooM he? \. — Yi'm. y. — And you telegraphed him to come down? A. — I did. y. — .\nd he came down here when? A. — YeHterdny af- leruoon some time, ho I underHtaud. Q. — I believe, aH a matter of fact, you have bim itubpoen- lied aH a witneHH? A. — Ych. Q.— And he will be here? .V.— YeH. y. — And you alwayn intended he Hhould be? .\. — I in- I ended he nliould be; lie Ih sub])oenaed. Q. — LuNt nipht it a|>|H'arH the nmn liad come on bin jour- iity and wan not well? .\. — He had a wvere cold which settled in bin cheHt and it appearH he had bet'n drinking u liltle and I anked him to come to my house. 1 ttntk him Id the houHe and ho was very ill thiH morning when I left, and ctMild not eat any breakfaHt. ii. — .\nd you do not know whether he in there or not now? A. — I left him there; I do not know if he Ih there iiuw. Q. — He came yesterday afternoftn in the Twh? A. — No. lie came overland; he came over the mountniuH. (i. — What did you go down to the veawl for? A. — I usually go down Itefore the Te«'H goes out to the coaHt, hav- ing interests on the Wi'st Coast. {}. — Does she ever go without vour going down? A. — >• -er. (i. — Ther«' is nothing unusual in your going down there? A. — Nothing whatever. {}. — This man, it apjiears. had some cheques to sign? A. — He had for Captain Roberts. Q. — Who is Captain K. (.]. — How did you come to get a carriage to go home? A. — Well, it was quite a ways to walk and he was very ill. (). — He had a roli; 1 I ! 1 1 1 A: i ! 'I' IJI'ICII 10 20 I tt>lt'(;ra|»lu>d fur liiiii 30 40 5-5 60 $76 (Wllliiiin MiiiiHic — ItiTiilU'd.) M,v Mr. DickiiiHoii: — Voti mi.v tliiit MfLftiii iiihI In* wt'i*- drinkiiiK toKcliicr? You iK-ard tlic iiiiin wtiH in tlilH |»Iim'i> uiid Cii|»liitii Mcli<'iiii wiiH (Ih'Iv, wiin Iu> not? A. — IU> told ni«> HO liiniHi>lf tliut III' had tuM-n diinkinK with ('aptain Mc- Lean. Q. — IMd Captain Mt-lA-an It'll ,voii that Im' had l>«'<-ii ■'<> qut'Htt'd hv iiH to k<'«'|) an <'y<* on tlH* man nntil w«' would nvi a Hnhpofna for him? A. — lie did not. Q. — lint h*> waH in then' with him in thiH piarr wlu'rc vou found H«'r«'ault'.' .\. — I did not tind him tliori'. (i.— Who did? A.— Captain UolxrtM. y. — IHd not .vou (JO in tlicn'? A. — No. i}. — Wlit'rc w«'r«' ,vo» — did vou Hta.v «MitHid«'? \. — I wuh walking up VatcH Ntri't't. Q. — I)id you have a carriaK*'? A. — Xo. (i. — IIow did <'aptain HoltcrtH know where .vou were? A. — Captiiin KohertH waH looking for him; we walked up the Htreet tOKetlier. i('klnHon: — Wv ilfHiiv, imiy it jili'iim' t)H> <'ourt, to «'X iiiniiH* one or two witiii'NH<-H vrrv lirit'tlj^- if we ciiii ^ot tlifiu. To tliiit rxlt'iit Wf iM'Ht, HO fur iin the witiicHHt-H wi' iirc tiblt' III i;(>l lit Victoriii :ii-i' ronnTiicd. On iln> i|iii-MlioiiR iit iHHii**, liowfMT, we part of tlii' Tnitotl HtatcH: — 1><> voii intciiil to proftMMl fiirtlitT now or wait until tlit- cxatiii- iiation of llif laHt wilm-HH \h roiiiplotr? Mr. DirkinMon: — I woiiid pr«-fiT to wail until iii.v liMirnfti friciulH minplHt' llic t'xaniiiialion of llit> hiHt witnt-HH. Till- CoinniiHMioiu'r on Ilit- part of llio I'nitt'd Statt-w: — Very w*ll. Mr. Difkinmin: — I «l»'Hir«' in ronncclioii with tlio proof al ntidv put in to |(Ul in a *-iMtili*'«1 lopv of tlic Itill of Huh-of tin- "Siin !>if^'o" to lt<'clilt>l, as recorded in the colleetor of ciih lonm' ofllee in >4an KranciKco, together with Mr. HeeliterH af lidavit nied at tlie time, a eertifled eopv of whi<-h we have. .Mr. I'etei'H: — ,\f,v obj«'«-tion t«) the other doniinentK put in liv my learned friend ap]ilieM e<|ually to thiH. My objerlion is tlial the altidavil eannot lie put in hh evidt'iiee apiiiiHt uh ill lliiH partlcul'ir inalter. The facts can lie proved outHi fact that the regiHtration of the ship, as contra- dislin<;iiiHhed from a men staleinent. yet at the same time tlie atlidavit is )int in as a statement, and it combines n i|U<>h- tion of law arising out of certain facts. lie may be all wroiifi in his law. lie may think he was an .American citi- zen when he was not, and therefore I object to that class of ^ evidence being put in. Mr. IHckinson; — I snppost' it will go in under the same niling. We ofler it further as im|ieaching the testimony of •I. A. Hechtel. a witness caUed for (Sreat Itritain in this case. Mr. I'eterB: — On what ground.-* do yon impeach it? Mr. Dickinson: — Itecniise I asked him a tpiestion as to what lie di(t Kxliibit 4, T. S., <.'laiiii No. 1. Mr. I'j'ters: — We takp the same objectiou to the bill of sale aa well as to the atlWlavit. Mr. DickiuHori. — That is iiiider«tood. The ('onuniisNiouerH then toolv a recesH. 10 '^V\V^■\ 20 30 40 The CoiuiniMHiouerH iVNUiued their seats at 2:1.') o'cioeii. The Conunissioiier ou the part of the I'uited Staler. — Mv learned associate has aslied me to make au auiiouiiceiuenl oii behalf of the ('omiiiissioners with reference to the crosscx amination uuder discussion this moiiiiu};. <>u Roiu;; tlii(iu.t;ii the notes we ttnd that the state of the rccoi-d apiiears to he eritirely clear, and 1 .vill read those parts only whi«h (oiicli on this precise matter, I shall read all of them so far as we have b«'en able to discover them. Commencinfj on the IHth fjali 'v the following; took place as rejtorti'd: "Q. — Is there any larf{',> proportion of seals lost after hiin-i shot when they are awake? A. — Yes, sir, of awake sc;ils a larfie proportion are lost? "Q. — Why is that? A. — Hecause they are standin}; up in the water and shot from the front UK>kinK at you. They fall on their back th«'n, and 1 understand that the air comes out of their body and they sink tail first. "Q. — And go out of sifjjht and ari' lost? A. — Yes. "li. — They don't conu' up apiin? A. — I never knew of one to come up; a d«'ad s«'al will sink like a stone. "Q. — You never knew of ont> to come up? A. — I alwii.\s unt them at a long distance, 1 think fully half would be lost. "Q.— Fully half? A.— Yes, sir, that is when we kill at a long distanc"." Then comes a question intended to lead up to a fiirtlicr t>n(|niry of this character: "Q. — You. yourself, 1 think, are a pretty crack shot? .V.— Yes, I have always shot some seals. "Q. — Well, it is not immodest for you to say. if you have the reputation of being a first-class slmt, have yon? -V. — • Yes, sir." And then comes the objecti«m of Mr. Peters: "Mr. Peters: — If we arc going into the (piesfion as how many seals aic lost by sinking after being slutt, we vill en fer int<» a rather brotid inquiry." That is the precise (jueslion which was before the Tribunal at Paris 60 km^^ SIh ?.•? 10 20 30 379 (E. I*. Miiifi— Ht'iallt'd -rioss.) Thai iunk«'N two thiiif;« pfrfectly iipiiart'iit, oiu' thiufj is that tho qiU'Htioii we have been coiisidfriii"; is perfectly plain. It is not at all involved in the (|iie!slion of pelagic sealing; bnt it rehitos simply and Holely (o the precise objection made by Mr. IV'ter». Tliat is what the Commissioners ruled and that is what we have reference to. t)f course it does not follow Ironi that that as the case jiro^resseH (her(> may not be other topics as to which the Commissioners may not be inclin«'d to limit the testimony. It also makes clear that if this (jnes- tion is allowed to stand in the record it would entitle Sir Charles Tuppei- to cross examine with reference to the sub- ject matter umh'r discussion at the time the crosscxaniina- tion stopped. It is not clear to the Commissioners whether ornot under all (he circunistances (liis should stand in the re- jection which Mr. Peters at once made. If Counsel, undei" the circuni- stances, are apreed that it should be stricken out they will direct the stenoirrapher to take out Ihe portion I have read. In view of the fact that coiinsel have said that thev wftuld group their testimony u])on this lojiic at a future- time and in some other case, it occurred to us, if counsel preferred, to strike the whole matter out of the record. Wir C II. Tapper: — As to what may be agreed, upon, of course, I make no statement at pr«'sent, but in deference to the observations that havt' been made from the Hench both before adjournment and since, I shall not cross-examine this witness on the subject >\e are discussing. I hop(> I nuiy without olfence say, with |)arlicular reference to the obser- vations that have jusi been made, we do not altogether agree that the parts read from the ilirecl ex.imination are tlu> only 40 ]iarts thai tleal with this (pieslion. The (^(mniissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — I re marked that is all we found. Sir V. 11. Tupper: — F(M- instance, later on he was asked about how many seals were lost of those he shot. Tile Commissioner on the part of the United States: — We did not tind it. 5*^ Kir V. II. Tuj.per:— N;», Your Honour, an/! it will noi be necessary to discuss it now. I ask ihe permission of the Ciinmiission to ask Ihe witness a couple of ipiestions which were on my notes this morninig but which I had forgotten to ask. Cross examin;ilion continued :—(i.—C:M»<- Miner, yon oul- titled Ihe "Henry Dennis" in IS't:! and IS'.MV .\. - Yes. sir. Q.— Had von Frank McKeiinii as your cook? .\.— Yes, in 1S!»4. '^0 Q._\Vho was your cook in lS!»:t? A.— Thai I cannol call to mind. (j._\Vas it not Frank McKenna? \.— I do not think so but I don't remember. Q._You will not be certain about thai? A.— I will not be certain. Q.- You d<'alt wiUi Schwabacker Urolhers, of Seattle, In lliose vears? A. — Yes, sir. M ,■4? A.— 50 Somethinu thai I tlMuight wotihl be worth while to take making the otit! t a little better. Q. — Have you any detlnite reason? .\. — Kxcepting that. Q.— As a matter of fact what do you think? .\.— I don't think they weri' as a rule. Q. — Were they any dearei? A.— No, sir, I don't think they wei'c any dearer. Q. — You can give me no other reason for supposing your provision bill was higher in IS<»4 than in 1S!):< than the reason (5o you have given me? .\. — No other reason. (i. — Will .\(>u stale positively that yoiii- provision bill was dearer in IH!I4 for the Henry Dennis tJuin it was in \H'X\'! A. — I had a little UHUe provisiat<'d with the tide. (2. — fame in on the side as she lea-ied over? A. — At the lo|), yon mean. Q. — Yes? .\. — No, sir. it will not (low over. Q. — l»id yon see the water cominjt in? .\. — I did not no tice as to that. '° y. — I asked yon whether provisions were (h-arer in 1S!>4 than in 1S0.'{. Wen- they not cheaper in IS!»4 than they were in ISSti or 1SS7? .\. — I think considerahly so. Re-direct examination !)v Mr. Dickinson: (I. — Your estimate of fs and iflO that you have made on ihe tiltin}f out as to which yon liave been crossexamined; on your return from the trips did it turn out that your estimate had been correct? A. — Most always my estimate was about the same. Q. — IMd it turn out on your return that you were short or that yon had a surplus? I always had a surplus. Q. — Comin;; into port? .\. — Yes. sir. ii. — What was (he tcmnage of the Dennis? .\. — !Mi tons and a fraction. 20 Q. — How many men did she carry? .V. — '2't. <]. — Willi" men? ,\. — White meii. yes. (i.— Yon had the same niinil»er in IH!t:{ and 1S!M? A.— If ,Q I remember rijjhtly, just the same. He (ross-examination by Sir ('. II. Tapper. Q. — Tliis surplus of pmds was. I take it. probably of little vahu' after nine months' cruise? \. — Not of much value. Q. — Do you remember on a trip tilllnft up with stcu-es at Sluiinanin Island after flttinft up? .V. — I had small bills there. ii. — For provisions? .\. — For provisiosition is that the evidence should stand just as it is. I see no reaw(tn for alter'njj it in any re spect or striking any part of it out. In fact, I see no jjood (grounds for asking to strike any part of it out. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not sujjpose we c<»uld ask voluntarily to have it struck out. Of conrs<' my leani«*tl friends may in- sist uiMHi it under the ruling. 20 Mr. Peters: — No. I do not insist upon it at all. Mr. Dickinson: — Now. may it please the Commissioners we rest so far as the testimony in N'ictoria is concerned with the excejition of two and jxissiltly three witnesses who will he very brief upon abstract portions of the case and not upon all the issues at all. We have produced here in good faith witnesses from the American side of the water, but we have been unable to close our case as to certain branches. 30 m\ 40 Mr. Pi'ters: — I'nder the circumstances it would be impos- sible for me to recall my reltuttal evidence until I know the whole cast' on the other side; nor do I pi'opose to call rebut- tal evidence as a whole until their case is absolutely closed. In order to save time then- is a witness here now who must leave in a short time and I propose to examine him. lie be- longs t])ly not only to the "i'arolena" but to several other cases. I have given inv learned friend a list of the witn»>ss»>s and of the cases to which their evidence will be applicabl<>. They are siujjily here as witnesses, most of them having no personal interest in the case, and it would be ruin to them if they were compelled to lose tlieir whole season's sealing trij). I liave madi- the suggestion to my leinned friend that they 50 Nhould be examined now. The evidence need not be i»rinted but (uily typewritten so that it could afterwards Iw applied to the paiticiilar case in the record. Mr. Dickinson: — We sliiill (oiiscnt to anything that will expedite the case. I have told my learned friend that as wo prepared each case by itself it would be necessary frr us t(» know before hand in regard to what claim the witness would be sworn. ^ .My learned friends infornusl me by letter last night that these witnesses wotild be examined oidy upon the (piestions as to the catch for the years ISS!) and 1S!K». and of «'ourse we were jirepared to consent at once to that. They, however, have infornn-d us this morning that it is proposed to examine sonu' of these witnesses on other questions and we have a«k- «'d that notice of that should be given as we would like to loi>k upcm the record of tl»> case as in each particular claim as to which they are examined. 583 (David Knsscll— Dimt.) Mr. DickinHon: — We would, of course. hav«' to n-fpr to our |iiip<>r8 and sec what diroetion our rroftH-cxamination Hliould tak«>. Mr. Peters: — That is a very reasonable proposition. The tirst witn«>8R I propoK)> to rail is simply on the question of srals sinking. ,0 The ( 'oniniissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Do you call him in this ease of the 'H'arolena''? A. — He would be called in this case and his evidence would be applicable to the other cases. 20 CASK OF OREAT BRITAIN IN REBUTTAL. rn«'d that tions ' we 'ver. mine auk ce to 'laim 40 60 Uavid Russell was called as a witness on behalf of ijreat Britain and was duly sworn. The (.'omniissi(uier on the part of the I'nited States: — I iindcrstaud you to say, Mr. I'eters, that this is a witness in rebuttal whom you call out of the order. .Mr. Peters: — Yes, your Honour. Direct examination by Mr. Itudwell: Q. — Have you been living lately in the city of Seattle? A. —Yes, sir. (2. — And you came to \'ictoria on Saturday last? A. — No, uir, I cume on Monday morning. il. — Were you on board the "Carolena" in the year IHSU'! A. — I was. (i- — Were you on board her when she was taken into the port of Ounalaska? \. — Yes, sir. (■i- — How long were you on board the ship in Ounalaska? A. — I think seven days. 1 would not be sure with regard lo a day or two. ctiinf into \wvi, but ut the tiuiv tlu> iuv*>n(or>' wuh taliou. Mr. Bet that by provinji that on her arrival at Ounalasku she only had a small (juantity of provisions on board, the inference being that we eoiild not have put tln' amount of provisions on lM>ard that we said we did. That is the whole line of defence as disclosed in the cross-examination. Now we discover for the first time on the arrival of th«' "Carolena" at Ounalaska a (juantity of provisions were taken from her and placed on board of the St. Paul, in which the crews of these ve.ssels w<-re shipped to San Francisco. That «'ertain- ly is in rebuttal of the case whi«'' is made out by the evidence of the witness. I ask ('apt. Kaynor if there were not provis ions for 10 men taken off the "Carolena" and put on the "S(. Paul." and his una ver is that he did not see it and did not know it. 20 30 The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States; — You ask that on cross-examination. Mr. Hodwell: — Yes, as a matter of fact we did not have this witness and did not know anything of the facts. .Q Mr. Dickinson: — Can ^ ,>, sir, rebut and say they did not go "* on to the "St. Paul." The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Yes. you can. In their evidence in chief they say then' was so much material put on board of the vessel, :uul you say tlieie was only so much found at Ounalaska. No they undertake to account for it by showing that it was used in an unusual direction. That surely is within the rules of rebuttal, and you are entitled to slutw on the other hand that they did not go on board the St. Paul. 50 Mr. Dickinsonu: all right. 60 -Very well, with that understanding, it is Mr. n.xlwell:— Q.— What did they take? A.— There was beef, [lork, (lour, biscuits, tea and coffee, sugar and ham and butter and I cannot lemeiiiber anything else now. Q. — Do you rememl)er whether there w<'re any canned goods? .\. — Unless it was c.'inned condensed milk, but 1 do not remember anything else. I kiiul of think 1 saw , I j^uess. goods were taken from the "<'arolena?" A. — I was on board of tlie "Carolena?" Q. — Seven days after your arrival at Ounalaska? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did the goods go on board the "St. Paul" before yon did? A. — There was erne boat took us on board and another boat took the goods on board. Q. — Did the troods leavi' first, or did your men leave the "Parolena" tlrst? A. — I could not say now exactly. Q.— What kind of a boat took you over to the "St. Paul?" .\. — It was one of the cutter's boats. Q. — And what kind of a boat took the goods over to the "St. PanI?" A. — That was one of the cutter's boats, too. Q. — Did you see the captain of tin* "f'orwin" on board of the "Parolena" before this? .\. — No, sir. Q. — Y«>u never saw him on board? \. — No, sir. Q. — Did you see Li»ut. <'oiilson on board of lu-r? A. — No, sir. (i. — Or liieut. Cantwell? A. — The only man I saw on board the "f'arolena" wa.-< one who I understood to be the third Lieutenant. ly — liieut. (.'antwell? \. — I do not konw. Q. — Did you st>e him take an inventory from the "Tarolena" when yon were then ? .\. — No, sir. he was there to guard and nothing else. Q. — Me did not tak«' an inventory liefore you left on the "SI. Paul?" A.— No, sir. (i. — .\nd did you not see him taking an inventory? A. — No, sir Q. — Were you fed on these things on the "St. Pa til?" A. No. sir; partly we were and partly we were not. (i.— Where did you take your meals on the "St. Panl?-' .\. — We took our m«'als wherever w«' could get a hold of it, in fact, w«' had no meals at all. Q.— Did they set any table for you? A.— No, sir. Q.— What else did you eat besides these goods that were put on? A. — The goods was put on to feed us, but we had no way of cooking them. We got nothing but coffee and biscuits. ' 'ifii 'mi' \m rwT ■'ill lO 20 30 ■|1! 40 'U\<\v 50 60 586 (David KnHHcll — < 'i'osh.) Q. — Y«Hi got s«»iii«' olIuT fan.' on tlio " by pnyiiiK for it. Q. — You had sonif inoni'v (ln'ii? A St. Paul?" A.— Yp8, Q. — Did all of you liav«' inonoy? of A.— I lillOW. tliink. A. — I can- "St. rani?" A.— 1 «an a dozen. I l\now tlicn' I cannot tell liow ninth •Carolena" had left -YeH, si p. A. — There wa.< a few ns had money, I do not know how many. Q. — Did yon eat any of the pilot bread yonrself? A. — Yeg, sir. Q. — And had Kome butter with it? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— On the "St. Paul?" A.— Yes. sir. (J. — In what shape was ihe butter taken ofl? A. — In tubs. I believe, if I remember arii^ht. butter tubs. Q. — \Yas there mon- tlian one tub taken to the "St. Paul?" A. — I don't reini'mber now. Q. — \Yhat was the suRar taken into tlie "St. Paul?" think it was a kej? — half barr«'l. Q. — How mufli su^ar was in it? .\. — Oil, I do not Q.— ^Va8 the barrel full? A.— Pretty near full, I Q. — How many saeks of flour did you see in the "Carolena" on the day that the removal of tlie floods was made to the "St. Paul?" A.~I do not remember. Q. — Yon don't remember how many the "Carolena" had on board that day? A. — \o. sir. Q. — Cannor you tell? \. — No, sir, I oannot. Q. — How mucli was taken to th<' "St. Paul? not tell. Q, — Were there two taken to the not tell whether there were two or was some. 1 saw Hour there, but there was. Q. — You cannot tell how much tin when you were seizt'd? A. — No. sir. Q. — Did you look into the su^jar barrel? A. — We used it right off the barrel (m the "St. Paul." Q. — Did you look to see how much butter there was? A. — 1^0, sir. Q. — What else did you say was taken off besides the sufjar and butter? A. — There was hams, I believe. Q. — How many? A. — I cannot tell, but I know we ate some of them. Q. — Wjis there one? A. — I am i»retty sure there was (me. Q. — As my learned friend opposite would say, will you swear there was one? A. — Tlu-re was one. Q. — Will you swear there was any more? A. — I cannot Hwear as to that. Q. — Was there any corn be«'f? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What was it in? A. — In barrels. Q. — How many barrels (»f corn beef did you have? .V. — 1 think there were three bands. Q,— Full barrels? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — How lonp was the voyage on the "St. Paul", how many days? A. — About ten days. Q. — How many in the "party? A. — Nineteen. Q. — And it took three barrels of corn beef besides all the other things to feed you? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What else did you have? A.— A barrel ()f jxtrk, but I (•an not tell whether the barrel was full or not. Q. — You took a barrel of sugar, thret? barrels of corn beef and a tub of butter? A. — I believe there was one tub. Q. — You did not know how full it was? A. — I do not use butter and I did not have occasion to go to the tub. Q- — You did not see how much pork there was? A. — No. sir. Q. — And did any of tlie other crews partake of the "Car- olena 's" stores on this ten days' voyage? A.— It was put on for us and the "Thornton's" civw both. 10 20 587 (havid UiiHHt'll — <"roHH.) y. — IM(1 tln> "Thorntiiu" crew havo auytliiuK-' A. — Y»'H, tlu-y titt' tlit> pilot biviid ami llu- tea and rutTuo and siipir. (j. — Wlial stores dUl tlu'.v (jfivc .vou on tlic "St. I'aiil," that was not jjot from tlu> "Carolina's" stores? A. — We Itouj^ht about one meal a da.v, and they made a tar|mulin mess imd that is about all we did have. The rest we had was tea and cotree and pilot bread. il. — You don't know if the "Thoniton" men had any «)f your stores'/ A. — Ves, sir, they did. It was put on board for the nineteen men. Q. — Will you tell me whether you saw these stores put on board before or after y«u left the "Candena'/" A. — I eannot tell you that exactly. There was one boat on (»ne side of the vessel and one on the other, if I remember arif;ht. We pot in one boat and the stores were put in the other bojit by the sailors of the eutter. (i. — Did you see the stores pnt on board'/ A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Uefore you left'/ A. — Yes. Q. — Did you see them go to the "Ht. Paul?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Are you positive about that, Uussel'/ A. — Yes. sir, with the boat, (i- — And they unloaded the stores from her'/ A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Yon are positive about it'/ A. — Y«>s, sir. (). — Do vou know a man by the name of Roland over in H«'attle? A.— No, sir. Q. — Do yon know any one who asked you to come over here as a witness for the Ignited States within three days last 30 past? A. — There was a man there Sunday afternotm about 4 o'clock, but I do not remember his name. Q. — He asked you to come for the United States because you were on the "Carolena" and knew something about this matter ? A . — Yes, Tsi r. Q. — Did you refuse to come? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you tell him you would not come because you would have to lie? A. — Xo, sir, he wanted to know what I knew about it, and 1 told him that after I got on the stand I would tell what I knew. 4*^ Q. — Did you not tell him that if you came to Victoria and told about your experience on the "Carolena" you would have to lie? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did yon tell him that if yon made any statement it would be a lie? A. — No, sir. (J.— Nothing of the kind? A. — No. sir. Q. — Was there anything said about lying? A. — No. sir; I told him that when I was in the stand and under oath I would tell what I knew about it and not before. -Q Q. — Did you tell him that you would not tell him anything? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You told him you would not tell him anything as to wlujt you knew about the "Carolena?'' A. — Not till 1 got on the stand. Q.— Did you tell him that if you did tell hiiii anything you would tell a lie? A. — No. sir. Q.— And that was Sundav afternoon at Seattle? A. — Yes. Q. — Where? A. — In my house. 60 Q. — What is your business over there? A. — I am work- ing alongshore there. Q. — Now, I will ask yon whether on that occasion at your house did yoii know whether the name of that man was Ro- land or not? A. — I believe that was the name but I would not be sure. Q.— Did yon t«Il him that yon did not .want to come to Vic- toria? A. — I told him that I did not want to come with him. I! ^lh'l,(u (hllVid UllHHcll Cl'OHN.I iy — hid you ;:iv«' liiiii iih s\ iciihoii why you ilid not wiiiil lo (■oiii(> tliat if yon tuM t)i<- Irntli in X'icloriu. anil luul liiiit any one in N'ietoi-ia. you never roultl coint' liiuk lierc'.' .\. — No, Hir. (i.— Yon did not? A.— No, Hir. 0.— Aiul nolliiii^r lilx." tliat? A.— No, hIi-. iy — hid you tell Mr. Koland. tliiH Hauie man. on Sundav ,o tiftcrnoon at Seattle in your lioiiNe tluit .loiin TotHford liiid been over ami liad liis family in Vieloria living then' and liad had enoutih of l into talis, and those we did not need — Q. — Were there any empty liarrels left? A. — No. sir. (j. — You did not look inside the tliinus that went over the side of the •M'aroleim"? A. — No. sir. 20 Q- — NVho manned the boat? .V. — It was the eutter's nu'U. iy — ('.".n you tell whether the stuH' that was inside these packap's came from the "t'arolena" ;es? A. — Heeanse the boat was there at the "Carolena" lo take the stuff on board. (i.— Did you help loay Jlr. Podw«'ll: Q.— What did Mr. Ileehtel no on her for? .Mr. Dickinson: — I object to that. You had -Mr. Hechtel and could examine him. .Mr. Modwell: — Yoti asked that (piestion on cross cxamina lion. Tile t'oiiimissioner on the |»art of Her Majesty: — I think .„ Mr. liodwell can ask what Mr. I'.echtel went on board for. .10 .Mr. Dickinson: — Then, may it please your Ilonmir, I desire !(• withdriiw the <|uestioii. Sir ('. II. TiipjK'r: — You cannot withdraw it; it is too late. The t'tmimissioner on the part of Her .Majesty: — One ves- sel may lie a!.)!>,f.i man was on board the shi]) without any explanation of why he was (Ui board, then yon would be help- '^'O less. .Mr. Dickinson: — I do not lliink your Honour caught th(> •piestion. The (|iiestion was whether Hechtel was on fhe voya>;e to tMayo(piot. I submit. y<..ir Honour, that it is not a subject for reexamination to sh<»w liis biiHiness when he was on the ship. The <'(unmissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I am in- clined to think that if you axk any (piesfi(m (m cross-exam- j. ii^ ■i *; li' i ■ ! ■ . ,. ; ^^S.^.; '■', i -'f' ^Km ' IR ■ ^ ' ' ■ ll ■ All ,i,;j; iiiil I' ■!||M,.!i ^90 (Diivid UiiHHt'll — CruMH.) tmitloii, lift'iikini; iifw (troiiiHl, Ih Im roiiipftont for tlic otlior Hi(l(> to t|iialif,v )iimI fxpliiiii it. Mr. DirkiUNoii: — Tlu'ii I iiHk iK-rnilttMioii to witdruw tlic <|iu'Htion. Sir ('. II. TuiUM'r:— It 1h too liitc. Tlu* CoinniiMMioiicr on tlic jmrt of Ih-r MiijoHty: — Onliiiar- '^ il.v \vh*i'Hoii putH a (|u<>Htioii lit* (iiiinot witlidraw it an a matter of ri^lit. Mr. 11imIw»'II: — Siirciv voiir lloiionrH want any ii^lit vou «'an m>t on tliiN Hultji'ct, and tliiH witnt'SH, I l>«-li<'v<', can ^ive The (3onuniHion«'r on tlic part of Her MajcMt.v: — It luijjlit p<*rha|»H 1)1' aKHi**! tliat Mr. Ilitkinnon Hiuinid liavi- pi-rniiH- Hion to witlidniw tlic (|iit'.'tion. 20 Mr. DickiiiHoii: — If coiinwl on llic ollior widf dcHirc to ^^\v^' the ('oiiiniiMHioiit'rH li^lit on tliis Hiilijcct, tlii*,v ran ct-r- (aiiil.v produ(-4' tlicir own witn(>HN and make llicir own cvi- d«'nc«'. Mr. Modwi-ll: — Here i8 a witncsH called and it is apparcnr that he can throw li^ht on the Muhjcct broaclit-d li.v the defence in their ci-ohh examination. My friend, Mr. Dicktn- Hon, luiH hiiimelf o|M>ned up that Niibject by his croHsexaniin- ation. I now state to this coui't that I believe that the wit- jO nesH can throw li^lit on that i|ueHtion and can «'X)ilain .Mr. nechtel's visit to <'layo<|iiot, and what he did and how lon^; hi' remained there. I state that the court has now an op- jKirtunity to tjet lii^ht on that subject from this witness. Mr. Uickinson: — My leai-ned friends have had the name of this witness before them all the time, and if tiiey wished they conld produce him to throw liKht on tlie subject. If they were very anxious about it tiiey certainly could have produced him before. We endeavored to p't liim, and had no ditTicuIty in finding liim, but lie would not come for as. If the motive of my learn«>d friends is to throw liffht on tlie subject they can produ<'e him as their own witness. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — It lias been shown here before tiiat Mr. Hechtel went up on this vessel. Mr. Difkj'ison: — Yes. your Honour. Tli'.' Comiii! told, as wo havo boon told, that our case is closod, and that wo could only call now in robuttal. I submit that tliis is robuttal tostinumy and I submit ositecially that this allocation apiinst our witness is put in as part of the ease of the I'nitod Htates. 30 40 60 Tho t'oniniissioiior on tlio part of Uer Majesty: — Is that (piito clear? .Mr. Hodwoll: — It never apiK'ared in tho caso until Cotsford was put in the box. Mr. Dickin'-on: — The reason it did not appear was that Mr. Kcchtel swore he wont on the "('arolona" to say ijood-byo to t^aptain O^ilvio and only for that pHi'{)oso. I'liat appeared on crjhsoxaniinatiou. .Mr. Hodwoll: — My learued friend's recollection of tlio evi- dence is not quit*' correct. 'llu Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — It does Hooni to mo that it having come out Aral: as a matter which could not have boon expected and it being broached hy Mr. Dickinson on his cross e.xaiuination of this witnoss, that it is open for you to ask further about it. Kvidontly tlu- (piestion must have boon asked by -Mr. Dickinson for the Iiurpose of dialleuging the testimony upon that point. It liaving some r«'al value in the caso, I presume it is open for you to (pialify it in order to rebut inferences which ('thcr- wiso might naturally bo deducted. If you can qualify the inferences that havo be<>n drawn then I think tho question ought to be allowed. Mr. Dickinson: — It goes in in tho form of rebuttal. Tho Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It is |MU't of their ndmttal. The < 'oinmissionor on tho part of Her Majesty: — Yes, and growing out of the (piestion you put. it is a proper question for reexamination. Suppose you had asked if I were there, tho witness would be allowed to «'Xplaiii the i'ircumstunces iiiidor which I was there. Anything which would tend to qualify the incideut might bo allowed. Mr. Dickinson: — Then under that understanding I do not «)bj<'ct. Cross-examination by Mr. Bodwcll continued: I -Ml !, If'. ,.- li i. :!■':!';! ■Itl'V-l 10 20 30 40 50 60 592 (l>ilVi(l KllS»«t'l| «."l(»MM.J H. — Do you know why Mr. Ht'chlcl wi'iil aboard tin- vchhvI and what his purpoHt' was? A. — Mr. Dickinson: — I objt'ct to that. I do not want tht' wit- n<'HH to give a conclusion of his own. Mf. Uodwell:— Well, 1 will awk: g.— When did Mr. Hcchtcl },o on hoard? A. — The day we left here. I lu'licve. Q. — What did he do on hoard? A. — U«' did no! do auy- tliinfi; hut gt't sick, from what I could see of him. y. — He was sick all the way. was he? A. — >'e>', sir. Q. — X'ery sick? .\. — \vs: he was in bed most all the time Q. — Me was on board when you jiol to t'l'iyoipnU? A. — \ es. sir. Q. — What did you do wlu>n you >;ot to t'la.'.oqin ♦? .\. — Went ashore. g. — Where did he ^o'! .\. — He w«'nt into the store. I be lii've. and stay«'d there. Q. — How lonji did he stay there? .\. — I would not be sure now whetlu-r it was a day and a half or two days. Q. — Then wh(>re did he fji*? .\. — He went to .Mberni. Q. — Did yon hear anything during; the cours(> of the voyape from him, from .Mr. Mechtel. which would indicate what his purpose was in taking; that trip? Mr. Dickinson: — 1 object to that. That is clearly hear say. The CommissioniM" on the part of Her Majesty: — Then' are cases, of c<»urs«', where statements made by him inip;ht be explanatory of his acts. Mr. Dickinson ; — That is not the best evidence, my lord, of that, because Hechtel is lier(> anii of his bein); there mi^ht be taken as a decl.iration as to his acts. Mr. Dickinson :^.\>< part <»f tiie i-es yrestae? The <^ommissi(iner on the part of Her Majtsty: — Yes. that would be it. >[r. Dickinson: — With ISeclilel liere I submit, with >{reat respect, your Loidsliip, it would be hardly rijilit to supi>ort his previous testimony bv Mtatements as to what he said. That witness has .-^aid certain things, and I am confldent that on the ar;;umenv I shall convince your Honours that Itechlel on his testimony is not to be believed at all. Mr. T'eters: — I submit, youi' Honours, that it is not fair to mak(> that stat<>ment in artruiu}; this point. Mr. Dickinson. — '"■' have no jur\' here. Mr. T'eters:- It does not matl<'r. I do not think the statement should be mad* . Mr. Dickinson: — I am only makinu it for illustration; let nie finish. Mr. Peters: — I do object to such remarks beinR made in regard to a witness, and which lemarks are a little unnecos- Hiiry. .Mr. Dickinson: — I use it for illustration, and I intend later on to make the proposition I have slated. The witness has 593 I J 20 30 'iO 5.T 60 iI>Hviil K11S8) II — DisciiHsion.) Im'cu attsickfd hy hh, in niiHW<.>r (o lii» Htatciiieut tliat he only \v«>nt to the ship to »»\ goodbyi' io the ciipfaiu. We put on a witnesH to show that he went on a voyage some two or thret? hundred luilen up to this phue. Now, we Hubinit with great conttdence that the.v eannot jnit a stranger in Ihe box to helji Heehtel's evidence out by statements that IJeclitel made as to his purpose on that shij) on that voyage. It is mere hear- say. If ilehctel stated his pur])ose falsely, and if we eonld show tliat his statement was false, under the power this Tribunal has we miglit raise anitther issue, personal to Mr. l?t'('htel. We cannot attacli his statement that is said to Iiave been conveyed in the hearing of this man, so as to bring that statement home to Heclitel, nor could Ilechtel be pun- islied for it if it were not true. In vit-w of the state of the iccard, we submit that it is very dangerous to permit hear- say testimony of that kind. The ConimissicoIlection of asking that witness as to whether the i-rew unuld be in that form. Mr. Dickinson; — Of course it would lie if he were an ordi- nary willing wiinesB, but he was one of the crew of the "Cn- rolena." Mr. Bodwell:— Mr. Dickinson asked Cotsford: "Was Bech- (cl n^ naging ovtiier of the Carolena?" and after our objec- !i(iri that was ruled out. Cotsford was liien examined by Vu: Dickinson as to what Mr. Itechtel did on the schooner while jn the way to Clayocpiot. Tie ('ommissioner on the part of llu' United States: — I do i;i>* reiiieniber taking part in isny ruling as to Mr. lU'chtel wliile on board the vessel undertaking to give any directions iiltout that vessel. Mr. Rodwell: — Your Honour did not make that rnling. The iiiiiiig which the Court made, and which was perfectly prop- <'i'. ( belii>ve, was that the question as to who was the nian- iigiiig owner of the "i^arolena" shiMild be jiroved by the re- con! and not by the witness. Mr. Dickinson: — I ini lerstood the ruling precisely as my learned friend has stated, and I promptly obeyed that rule without arguing it. The (Commissioner on the pait of Her Majesty: — Do you tliiiik, Mr. Di' {iiison, that the ruling was not a projier one? If 'le wInesH was asked what the crew understood Mr. Hech- fi ii i I! Ill 1 \mwM '!' '•It'll Hi 30 594 (iMivid Hlm^4ell — IHHcussion.) tel to be. would not that relate to their nnderstandlu^ of it rather than as k) what he said or did to inipresM them with that understandiufj? I have no recollection of it, but it niijjht be that an objection of that sort would be a good one to such a question. Mr. Dickinson: — Doubtless. On a ship at sea, the general ivpute as to who is (he managing owner or the owner of the 10 ship, as understood by the crew of Ihat ship, would, I think, be competent evidence of (lie ownership. The (.'omniissioner on the part of the Tnited States: — 1 would not hesitate a moment about ruling that out. I re- collect that in ref(>rence to the "San Diego" it was said that she was registered in the name of Mr. Hechtel. There was a (juestion alM)ut Mr. Munsie being the managing owner, and .Mr. J'eters said it could only be proved by the record. I know perfectly well (hat if you are conlined to the record 2Q you never could prove that any vessel was whitewashed. Speaking for myself, I said at the time distinctly that we were not gov<*rned by the record as to whether a person had a beneficial interest in the vessel or not, for the purpose of this hearing. That is the only ruling T remember. j ; is is a (juestion of reputation. Mr. Dickinson; — Not a cpu'stion of reputation ( 1; ;■ ) .cs tion of his treatment of a crew and cajjtain on bi..'("d 'hip. The Commissioner on, (he part of the United States: — You had iM'tter tind the record. M '. Dickinson: — The (|ues(ion of repute came ont incident ally for (he jairpose of showing that there was nothing iu the a kinsoi asked Cotsford: "Who was (he managing owner ol tli<' "Ciifolena?" The objection which I (hough( tenable to tii.i^ ()uestion was this: That tinder our shipping law the man 5° aging owner of a vessel has to be r<'gistered as such, and that the ])roper way to ]irove (hat was by producing (he re cord. Your llonoui-s ruled, as I understo got to ("layoquot. The rommissioner (U. (he i»ar( of Her Majes(y: — Mr. I)i>' ins(Hi could ask one of (he crew, "Did Hechiel do t^n-h 60 (lungs." but I do not think it competent (o ask "Was he t; managing owner." .Mr. Dickinson:— This is (he precise ruling, which is (o l>'' found on i)age t7(>, in (he evid""C'> of .lohn t'otsford: "Q. — In (Ills business up (i, 1 ■. or in lii' business for (he "Caidlena" on (his (rip. will ,11 jdease staie who (he nieii were considering managing owneis? Mr. Itechtel 40 Mr. Munsie and ..jmHRh^mi m 10 595 (David UiiMHoll — Discussion.) "Mr. IVters: — Wait a moincut; I submit Uiat a intTP t'ln- ployce ou a ship is not a propur jHTSon to prove tliat by; it assumes sonu'tliin^; in tlie first |)Ia(t> it assumes lliat lie was owner. It is proved here already, I tliink, tliat Mr. Munsie was owner; but to ask a mere employee who was the owner of the shij) surely cannot be done. If there were two own- ers it would 1k' on the rejjister; and if there was a manapn^ owner it would be on the rej^ister. "Mr. Dickinson: — We think this is suitabh' aiitlientic test! niony, may it please your Honours, to show who the employ- ees were looking; up to on the whole trip, in connection with the other testimony. The Commissioner on the part of Iler Majesty: — You can }jive evidence as to what he did. Mr. Dickinson, from which tlM' conclusi(m mifjlit be drawn, but you cannot, I think, ask that question. The Commissioner on the part of the T^nited Stat«'s: — What was dpear in the papers of the vessel. That is another proposition entirely. "Mr. Dickinson: — I quite understand the objection and the ruling." When your Lordship made that rulin};, I abided by it at once without arfjument, as T always do. The Oommissioner on the |)art oi' Her Majesty: — You could ffive evidence as to what he did, but I do not think you could 30 ask that question. Mr.Dickinson : — The next statement that I made after that was that I quite understood the ruling and I then procwded to ask as to the actions of IJechtel. Mr. l*ett>i"s: — The question of Mr. Dickinson's which was ol)jected to was as to whom the crew thought was the manag- ing owner. Mr. Hodwell: — And just before that Mr. Dickinson was al- lowed to prove that Hechtel superintended the putting in of '^^ ribs in the canoes. 20 5-:)r m .13 ■, ' !! .1' In; r. ni.i si:;'fi Mr. Tetei-s: — After that the record goes on to sj\y: "The ( 'ommissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — I do not think the Commissioners intend to give effect to that objection, at the present at any rate, if they do at all. That is a broader objection than the on<' we ar<» considering." The objection was not to Mr. Dickinson pntving the acts of Mr. Hechtel, and in connection with that we now propose to give an explanation of his acts by showing what other acts S^'' he did, and the statements accompanying them at the time. Mr. Dickinson: — As to the (piestion of the manager, take 'le case of the building. Suppose a man who works under the manag(>r or the ordinary boss who has charge of the con- Inict for the building, is called and is asked to say that the boss told him that he was the boss, would that be ruled out? Is it not always c<»nsid«'red comjtetent testimony to bring a substantive fao man whom they thought was the luiss, and so considered him? The ("ommissioner on tlie jiart of Tier Majesty: — There is it little distiiK'tion then*. You used the word "treated," a word which might have availed you in this case. Mr. Dickinson. — I meant "considering him," or showing him "consideration" as the manager. m '■,i^ iji'(ii:> 596 (Diivic! KuHNi'll— Hfdircc't.) The (JuininiH^ioner on the part of Ifcr Mnjtsfy:— We do not apprehend liie qucHtion in that light. Mr. Dickinson:—! never lij one that bossed the job. Q. — The question I ask you is, did Mr. Bechtel have any- thing to do or give any orders with reference to that work? A. — No. sir; no. that I know of. Q. — Were you ther.^ all the time that was being done? A. — Well, most of the time I was. Q. — Did Bechtel give you any directions or orders about that matter? A. — No, sip. 5^ Mr. Dickinson:— I object to that. Q. — Did you hear him give any directions or orders to any one else? A. — No. Q. — Did you hear him give any orders or directions to any- body with refer was sick on shore. Q. — Was he abed? A. — No, sir, he was around. (J, — How do you know where he went to? You said after staying there two days he went off? A. — He told me he was going to Alberni. y. — Did you see him again? A. — Not until I got back to Seattle. Q. — There is no doubt whatever that the ribs of those can- 8 were put in, is there? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — There is no doubt about it, is there, that the canoes were not on the "(Jarolena" when she left Victoria to go there? A. — No, sir, they wasn't on it. Q. — And how long after you got there did the canoes ap- IM'ar, did you see them? A. — When I went on there they were on the beach. (i.— The four of them? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — Did you have anything to do with putting them on the bi'ach? A. — No, sir. (.1. — X«»w, when you got there, how long after you arrived did Mr. Bechtel go ashore? A. — I can't remember exactly. Q, — Did he go pretty promptly; he was there sick, wasn't he? A. — Yes, he went there, probably, I think, within six hours. t^. — Did you go ashore, too? A. — Yes. sir. <}. — Did you stay there? A. — N(»t altogether. Q. — Did Bechtel stay there at nights? A. — Yes. sir. (i. — Didn't go back to the ship, you stayed on the shore at nights? .\.— Yes. sir. Q. — .\nd how l«»ng did you slay when you first went on shore? A, — I dcm't remember, a part of the day anyway. Q. — How long after you got there did the canw^s appear? A. — The cano<>s were tliere when I first went ashore, if I r<'- member light, (i.— Are you (msitive alMtut that? .\.— I think s<». ''V Bi<- '. ■ 'f» 1 - '' 1 1 '!W !|¥'M'!f M' 4'\\ Hi lO 20 30 S98 (David ItuHHcll — Re cross — Ro-direct.) Q. — Did ytni see any Indians about tlipre? A. — Tlicrc wt'iT two or tliroe Indian bouses eloso to where the canoes were, I (hinli. Q. — Did you Ivuow an Indian named "Indian Jimniie?" A. — Not by nanu', I did not. Q. — Do you linow of a man witli some Indian blood by the name of Michael Hereault? A. — I know there was a store- kiH'iMT in t\u} place thei-e, a dark man; 1 don't know wlu'ther there was any Indian blood in him. Q. — Was he around? A. — He was around the store. (J. — Did you hav«' any talk with liim at all? A. — Not that 1 iiMuemlH-r; I don't remember beinjf around the store at all. Q. — Yon will not swear that the canoes were all there to- pether, or that they came singly? A. — They were all there together when I first seen them. R»'-I>irect e.\aminntion by Mr. Rodwell. (i. — .Inst descrilK' how they were and where they were, .\. — If I renu'mber right they were lying right inside of the wharf. There was a kind of a wharf with a shed on it then', and right there there were three or four Indian houses. Q. — AVere they altogether? A. — Yes, sir. Q — Do you know why they were there in that position? A. — I was told — Mr. Dickinson: — Never mind what j'ou wer. told. Witness: — I understood they belonged to the "Carolena." Q. — And ready to be taken aboard? A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Dickinson: — I submit that this is hearsay testimony. Mr. Rodwell: — I should think it would be among the de clarations that a man 8: — I do not quite understand, Mr. Rodwell, why it is not all covered by your oiicning case? Mr. Rodwell: — I will just ask the witness who told him, and have the Commissioners rule on it. (To witness.) Q.— Who told you that? A.— That the canoes were there? Mr. Dickinson: — Never mind. Mr. Rodwell: — Am I to go on or not? 1 ask the witness who told him that. He has just stated that he was told that the canoes were put there to be delivered, and that they were for tlu' schooner. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — You covered all that in your opening case^ Mr. Rodwell, have you not? Mr. Rodwell :— The evidence of Cotsford is that the canoes g^ wer»' bought after th.' arrival of the ship at Clayoquot; and he was there and saw them purchase and ship one canoe; he speaks of it having been bought at fU. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty:— It docs not seem to me that this is admissible. Ry Mr. Rodwell: Q. — You say that Mr. Rechtol told )'ou thnt he was going to .\llM>rni? A. — Yes, sir. 40 50 10 20 30 40 10 6o 599 (David Riissoll— Ru-di fi'tt.) Q.— Did he tt'U you why? Mr. DifkiiiHoii : — I object. Mr. Bodwcll: — Mr. DiokinHon askod him a quostion. and ill the course of his answer he draws out half of the conver- sation, or a part of the conversation. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — You asked him wliere he went. He said he went to Alherni. Mr. Dickinson asked liim liow he knew, and lie said because he told him that he was goin^;. Mr. Dickinson: — If I had had a jur^I would have moved to strike it out, but 1 did not think it would make any dif- ference. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — It simply goes to show that his whole testimony about going tu Alberni should be stricken out. Mr. Bodwell: — Your Honours, it seems to me that when part of a statement goes in, if it has any relevancj at all, the whole should go in. The Commlssipner on the part of the United States: — So far as I am concerned, I think the whole statement should go out about his going to Albenii, but how is all this going to interest the Commissioners? What does it all amount to when you got it in? Mr. Bodwell: — Of course, if I understand my friend's posi- tion, it seems to me all these (|uestions will be very import- iiiit, because, as I understand, they have opened the case in this way, and I understand Mr. Dickinson to have stated u few minutes ago that he attacked Mr. Bechtel's testimony. Further, that he contended Mr. Bechtel was intere8t«>d in that ship and went to ClayiMjuot for that purpose. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Do you regard it as important to prove that Mr. Bechtel went to Alberni? Mr. Bodwell: — Certainly. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Then why do you not call the witness who knows it? Mr. Bodwell: — Because Mr. Dickinson says he does not be- lieve my wltnes, and 1 wanted to substantiate his testimony. Hy Mr. Bodwell: Q. — There is one question that I ought to have asked. You were asked about u conversation with Mr. lt(»\vliind. Do you remember that in your cross-examination? State all tliat occurred between you? A. — Wt-ll, him and Cotsford • ame up to the house, and he asked me if I had been on the "t'aioleua," and 1 told him yes that I had been there in 18^t.. ;ind he asked nie if I knew about forty and odd boxes pilot liread that was aboard, and I told him I couldn't say. With tliat I asked him who he was and what he wanted, and he gave ine the reasons, and I told him because I wasn't clear of the • iKsel and I thought \f I gave testimony there it would be iigainst my own interest, until I found out what I was to do; Mild he asked me if I would come over here »*! a witness, and I told him no. Then he asked me what my interest was in the vessel, and I told I im it all depended what they irot. If they got what they were suing for it would b(> some- where around $''•(>. He said: "You will nevev get it," and 1 said "all right.' lie started to tell me then about witness lees, but I shut !iim up, and I told him I don't want to liave n !i 4>\v-; lO 20 30 600 (David UiiHMcll — Kr diirct — KerrosH.) any more to sav about it. Ho told mo thor*' was no gi-oat liariu dono, and lie wont off. Q. — What did ho start to toll yon about, witnoss foes? A. — Abont witnofls foos. Q. — How far (|id ho po with his story about wilnoss f<'*s? A. — I toUl him I didn't want no witn<'S8 fooj; that 1 wasn't poing over. Q. — Woll, Mr. llussol), your father livos ho;v and yon have lived hero most of your life? A. — Yos, sir. Q. — Yon are well known? A. — 1 used to be, but I don't think 1 nm noi^ Q. — Your father was a resident of this city for many years? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And his family has all lived here? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty — That \h r.ot necessary. Mr. Bodwell: — Tlie style of my friend's ei-nsscsamination might lead to confusion. Your Honours do not know tins man as well as I do. (To witness.) Q. — How did you come over here, Mr. Rus- sell; what brought _>ou here? A. — A telegram from Mr. Munsie. Q. — You pot that on Satnrdny? A.— I got it Saturday night. Q. — IMd Mr. Iiowland tell yon who he was'? A. — Not un til I asked him. Q. — Who did he tell you he was? A. — I asked him if lie was on the side of the TTnite'. n.vciH— Direct.) -I li;iv»Mi'l iH'cn on hi-r 20 (i. — WIh'H (lid you It'iuc licr? A for probabl,^ two years niul a lialf. (J. — Within the two years, have you not been hen- exeejit iXH you came on tlie "KoHalie?" \. — I was over lie.-e tlie other day on the "KinjfHton." but 1 didn't come aHh«U'e. I waH working on lier. Q. — IIow lonjj affo was tliat? A. — That was Wednemhiy. I thinlv. of hiHt w«'ek. Q. — YoH did not rejMirt to MunHie? A. — No, air, I made a trip on her and went rif;lit back on lier. ii, — Did you ever liave a talk witli Munsie about thiH case? A. — No, sir. Q.— Or Hechtel? A.— No, Kir. Q. — Or anyone reju-eHentinji lln'm? .\. — Only when I came over here I went up to Mr. HodweH's. Q. — But the couuHel did not teh-^rapti you and Munsie did? A. — Munsie tele|;raphed me. Testimony of Mr. Russell closed. It' 40 William Douglas Hyers, a witness duly sworn, was n-called on the part of (Ireat Itritain. 30 Direct examination by Mr. Petei^. Q. — Mr. Byers, you have already stated yoiir experience as a 8t>al hunter and I will not go over that. In uhooting seals, will you tell me how are tlie majority of tlu'm shot, sleej)in}{ or swimming? A. — Sleeping. Q. — A large majority of them or not? A. — Yes, sir, a very large majority of them are sliot sh'cping. Q. — In the course of yoni- exjierience, luive you shot a largo number of seals? A. — For three years I was a hunter. I have shot a large number. Q. — Is it a fact that a certain ]M)rtion of the seals killed are lost by sinking? A. — There is a certain numlier. Q. — From your own experience, can you tell us wliat pro- portion of seals that are shot dead are lost? A. — From my own experienc!\ and from the e.\perien. n.vtMH— IHrcct— rioHH. W. E. Hiik«'i— IMrect.) *U>n chaiiK*' in tlx^ wind; a Hiiddcn <>li)inp' of wind uin.v pnt \*m out, at i w<' may find ourwivcH to tli<> leoward and Htill bn to tlH* windward wltii a Hiiddcn clianRo of tlic wind. Q. — Tliat hapitons in all kinds of hunting? A. — Not only Hcala, but everything else. (J. — Are the seals f-asy to awaken? A. — Well, yes; yo;i have to take a great deal of ])reeautiou in getting at them. Q. — When are you going away, Captain? A. — 1 am going (iway on Monday. Q. — On a scaling voyage? A. — Yes, sir. ('rosR-examination by Mr. Uickinson: Q. — If you do not take a great deal of precaution the seals awaken, do they not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What is the result if they do awaken? A. — The re- sult is they go away and you do not get a shot at them. In some cases you do if you are close enough. Q. — So that any distiirl)ance whicli awakens them lesnens the chances of your getting the seals even if they are there, docs it not? .\. — If tliey are awakened the chan<"e is small Q. — In order to get a quantity of seals when they are there you want to take the seals asleep, do you not? A. — Yes. sir. Re-direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — With regard to the (juantity of ammunition you re- tire peven or eight shots. Q.— And to chase tliem a long distance? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You do not give them ui» until you get them? A. — 40 No. sir; ammunition is no object at all. Q. — When you come down to a supply of ammunition you must allow for a great number of charges to be used in that way? A. — Yes(, sir. The Commissioners then rose. ■^ ^ 1 ' ■\ ■ 1; ■ I- hi I'; ^^ Oommissioners under the Oouvention of February 8, 1896, between Qreat Britain and the United States of Americr Chambers of the Legislative Acb' 1 jMy, At Victoria, December 17, 1896. At 10.no a.m. the Commissioners took their seats. Wentworth E. Haker was called as a witness on the part of (Sreat IJntain, and, being duly sworn, was examined, by C^ consent of counsel, out of order, with refer«'nce to claims to l)e hereatfer taken up. The witness was examined in the "Carolena" case in re- buttal by Mr. Peters as follows: Q._Oapt. Paker, in 1890 you were master of the "Viva." Did vou meet (;apt. Miner that year? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— In what ship was C^apt, Miner tlien? A.— The "Allie 1. Alger." lO ?0 (\V. K. I»iik«'r -IHnct. \V. T. Hiiinj?— IHi-fct.* Q. — ('apt. Miiwr Htiitcd thiit lit- hiid n\\vn voii a rfiliiin quantity of proviHionH and stori-H during tlw rourm' of tlit> voyage. I 9im|)l,y want von to toll tlic Coupt what he did actually givp you, so far uh you n'mcnibcr? A. — H** jjavo nn» Bonip thinffs in oxcliaiiKc for other thinpn I had— ii can of powder, for one tiling. Q. — A '25pound kcp, do yoti mean? A. — Yen, sir. Q. — Anything; elHc but powder? A.— I <'an't remember, I think there whh some snutll IteniH. I ean't remember what it was. Q. — And in .'xelmnKe for that you g»\e him HcmietliinR, I presume? A.— Yes. Hir. Q. — What? A. — I Rave him Home roal. Q. — A large quantity? A. — No. sir. Q. — About what quantity? A.— 1 think it was five saekH. Q. — So that the whole tranHaetion wan a very small one? A. — A very small one. liaughlan McLean wan <-alled as a witneHs on the part of Oreat Britain, and, being duly sworn, was examined, by eon- sent of counsel, out of order with reference to claims to be hereafter taken up. Captain Wm. Cox, called as a witness on the part of Oreat Britain, and being duly sworn, was examined out of order with reference to claims to be liereafter taken up. The Commissioners then rose. 30 40 OoauniBsloners under the OonventioD. of February 8, 1896, between Oreat Britain and the United States of America- Ohamben of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 18, 1896 At 10..10 a.m. the Commissioners took their seats. ili'ii III Examination of William Cox continued by Mr. I'elers. Charles A. Lundbei-g vas called as a witness on tlie part of Great Britain, and, b«ing duly sworn, was examined by consent of counsel out of o, der with ref«'rence to claims whicli 50 are to be taken up hereafter. William Thomas Bvagg was called as a witness on tlie part of Great Britain, and, being duly sworn, was examined by consent of counsel out of ord«'r with refi'renec to daiiiiH which are to be taken up her(>after. The following part of the evidence of tlie witness was de- clared to be ai)plicablf to the "Carolena" case: 60 Examination by Mr. Peters: A.— I Q. — For how many years did you net as hunter? have acted for eight year.s as hunter. Q. — On the coast of Behring Hea and in other places, 1 lie- lieve? A. — Y'cs, sir; everywhere. Q. — And during that time you had considerable exp«'rience. I presume, in shooting seals? A. — 1 had. Tliere was one year that I was mate and hunter, and F did not include that when T answered your qenstion. 10 20 30 40 (W. T. ItiiiKK— l»in' or ar»' tlw.v riinninp:? A. — Bh'cpin^ wals. Q. — It Ih a fact that hoiiu- HcalH ar(> kmt, I bcliev**, h,v Hiiik- in^ after they are Hhot? A. — It Ih. il — From your own exiMM-ience, and referring to nothing hut your own ex|terience. can you jjive uh an idea of wluit |iri>|)ortion of wuIh that are shot are aetually loHt? A. — Do you mean Hhot by myself? Q. — I nin now referring to your own exp«'rience, and noth- ing elw. A. — Aboui four per cent., sir; not more than flvo jier cent.; that is, sealw that actually ulnk. (.1 — Do you mean to nay that If you actually killed by sboot- ing a hundred .seals about five per cent, are lost by sinking? .\. — Five are lost by sinking. Q. — And no more? A. — I do not think so from my expe- rience. Q. — Does that loss occur in the case of shooting seals that are asleep, or in the case of shooting seals that are swim- ming? A. — In both. Q. — Which is the largest number of thom, I mean that are lost? A. — Reals that are travelling. Q. — Your answer is that about five per cent, covers the whole loss, including both slet-ping seals and travelling seals? A.— Yes. Cross-examnatiim by Mr. Warri'n. Q. — Mr. Hragg, I Hup]t(»se you mean by that the seals that are actually killed and that to your knowledge were killed? .\. — I mean that were killed dead and sunk. Q. — That does not include those that were shot at and woundeil and got away? A. — No, it doesn't. i}. — You did not include that numlH'r when you gave your (M-rcentage? A. — I did not. <}. — There are m.'iny of them that are wounded and get away? .\. — There is considerable. ii. — And all you mean to say is, that of the number of the seals that are actually killed four or five per cent, of them Hiiik? A. — Yes, sir, sink. ,ir.K 60 riarence Nelstm Cox was called as a witness on the part of vidence taken for, Mr. Peters? Mr. Peters:— This is on the catch in IH!»0. Direct examination by Mr. ?'eters. ' li'ii'-i lO 20 30 (C. N. Cox— Uiieet— (JroHH.) Q. — Wf Lave already got tlu.' cattli of tlio "Kapphire" fioiu A. — Yes. A. — I wan luaHter of tlic Do y«m r«'iiu'iuber? A. — 40 Go your brother who was eaptaiu? (). — lu what veHsel were you? sehoouer "Triumph." Q. — What touuage was she? Niuety-efjht tons. il. — What boats did she carry and what crew? A. — Slie had a white crew and six seaiiug boat, and tlie stern boat. Q. — You went into Hehrin); Sea that year? A. — Yi's, sir. Q. — Did you keep a book sliowinjr the number of seals you caught in l?ehrin>; S<>a? A. — I did, sir. Q. — Did vou make the entries in that book from dav to day? A.— I did, sir. (i. — Is there a column in that l)ook showing; tlu' days and a cobimn showing; the number of seals each day? A. — Yes, sir. they would be all together, the days, and the number of seals taken that day in the column opjMtsit*' the dates. Q. — And those two columns were put down from day to day? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — 1 want you to 1^ at your book and read off to me tin- day, the month and the numlMT of seals yoti caught durinjr the months of .lulv and August. 1S!»0? A.— On Julv !», 1 seal; -lulv 12, 1 seal; ir.th, .14; Kith, 1; IHth, «; tltth, 27'; 2t»tli. (i4; 21st.' 24; 22nd. 1; 2.'?rd. 1; 24th. n.i; 2r.th. S7; 2(ith, 4.-; 2!>th. IS; that was all in July. Au)j;ust 1st. 1; 2nd. in; ;5nl. 22; 4th. 1 ; (5th. 1 ; Ttli, 4; 0th, 1 ; inth. 06 or fi7; lltli, 52; 12tli. 2; ir.th. 1 ; Kith. 7; 10th. 2; that was all. Q.— (Jive me the total? A.— 47.1 f for? A. — The weather wasn't very pood and seals were scarce. Q. — Where were you sealinft when you left? \. — I was down to the southward of the Islands. Q. — Will you be kind enoujjh to tell me how far about — I am referring to th«' Pribyloff Islands? A. — Yes, sir. about 00 miles, I t; ink. from the Islands. Q.— To the southward of the Pribyloflf Islauds? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — (live me the latitude and lonnittuh" of your last day'-t Ashing? A. — The last day's fishing I have here was not tak- en there. (>.— Where was the last diiy's fishing? A. — ifore to the southward and westward; it would be about longitude 170.57 iind latitude HO. Q. — And that was how far to the southward and westward of the Islands? .\.— That would be SO miles. Q. — Then lentiful, you left the sea? A. — I left the sea. Q.— Tn 1S8S did you flsh? A.— No, sir. I wasn't scaling. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickiiiscui. {). — Did you make a custom house n-jtort? A. — Yes. sir. ti. — And reportid the numln'r of your catch in writing? A — Yes. sir. <}. — Did you distinguish the Itehring Sea catch from the coast catch? A. — 1 was dismasted and came in here, if I re member liglil. on the 1st of February, and then I made a re port of how nuiny seals I had. I had about 50 or 52. and when I returned in the fall I am not sure whether I piiT in the rest of the coast catch or not. (2.— In your report to the custom 1umis<' did you distinguish tln> coast catch from the Hehring Sea catch? A. — Oh. yes. sir. 6o7 (('. N. Cox — CnmH — Ite-diin-J.) y. — The mtper (Oiist ciitcli iind the Itfliriug Sea? A. — That I ciiirt Hijy for niirc. Q. — What is your Im'rj iiu-iuorv as to distiuguisliin); the iipiMT coast catch? A. — I am uuder the iinpressiou that I (lid. {}. — Will .voj U'll us again, Captain, what time you left tlie sea in 1HH9? A. — In ISH!) I came out through the pass, I ,0 tliinli, the 4th day of Aujijust. Q.— And ISMDV' A.— I thinli it would be about the 20th or 21st of August. Kedirect examination by Mr. Peters: (i. — And whatever report you made, t'aptiiin, to the custom iiouse would be in writing? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — And when you were entering? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And tliat is tliere to be found whatever it was? A. — Yes, sir. -° (i. — In the year ISOO, Captain Cox. you were on the south- ern coast? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Tliat would be front Ca[»e Flattery on the north? A. — "S'es, sir. (.}. — And San Francisco on the .soutli? A. — After going on my southern trip, after being in Yidoria disnmsted, I dii'.u't go above Columltia river. Q.— That would be further soulh than Cape Flattery? A. — Yes. sir; much further south than Cape Flattery. Q. — I want you to look at your book and tell me, in the ^'^ first place, between the 21st day of March, 1S90, up to the fifth da.v of Ajtiil. how many days you sealed and what you ca\ight rhiY bv dav? A. — On March 28th I got 56 seals, on the 2!)tli 11, .i(>th';i, April .^th 2(5. Q.— What is vour next date? A.— April fith. Q.— And tlu" next after that? .\.— The 7th. Q.— Tlow many? A.— I only got three one day and two the next. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— What 40 is the total for the ten days? Witness:— I tielieve 101 in the ten days specified. Q.— You hunt on Sundays as well as other days? A.— There is no Sundays sealing. Q. — Will you be Uind enough to tell me about that place you were hutning at tliat time, tliat is, in regard to Cape Flattery? A.— In the vicinity of Cape Flattery. I couldn't say from memory just where I was. (i. — .\nd how far apart are Cape Flattery and Neuh Hay? ' .\.— .Vbout 12 miles. Q. — >I.iw far is the ;5<'aling gn.iind from Neah Hay? A. — Wcli. we sealed any place frci 1 :!"» miles to 40 miles oil' Cape Flattery. ti. — So that a vessel at Xeah Hay would be within that dis- tance of the sealing grounds? A. — ;?.") or 40 miles, 1 should say. (i.— You did not see the "I'atl.flnder?" A.— Not that I rcnu'mber. (,o (i.— .\nd you knew nothing about her being seized? A.— \o, 1 knew'uolliing whatever of the "Failitlnder." (^._Ih that I'.msidered poor w good ground? .\.— It has been considered very gotxl sealing grounds; been very good catches taken tli<'r<'. li— Is it a ground much fre()uented by sealers at that time of tin- year? A. — Yes, sir. every year. (j._ir„i. iiisttince. in your trips on the coast you have ul- wavs tished on that ground? A.— Evor^- year, sir. i • ;,. H 'ljMt,n| I '' 10 20 S'^ 40 50 rx) (C. \. Co\ — i'roHH.) Q. — Is that tilt oasi.' with most all the sealers? A. — Gen- erally a great uiimber of sealers there every year. Cross-exaiuiuatioii resumed by Mr. Warreu: Q. — In 18yt) ou the eoast, t^aptain, yon caught 101 seals in ten days? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— That would be about ;{(tO a month? A.— Yon ean't really figure that way. Probably at times we would get four or five regular Imntiug days, and thert^ may be again u week when our boats wouldn't be out; there is no way of striking an average. ti. — You do not think that because you take seals in one part of the mouth that that is any indication that you would take them in another part of the month? A. — A great deal de|»ends on the weal her. Q.— And there is a great deal of luck in it? A.— There is a certain amount of luck. Q.— And there is a chance of finding when' tlie seals ore and getting them? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— And a great deal depends on your skill in getting your men out and managing them and controlling them? A.— Oh. u little. Q.— A great deal? A.— Oh. T don't know. Q.— Is \t not !> fact. Captain, that a man's skill as a captain and his rei»utation depend on the success he has in handling his crew of hunters and seamen? A.— Oh, yes, to a certain extent it does. Q. — And bv handling his crew with success you mean man- aging them .0 that they can get the best results? A. — Yes. Q. — And there is such a thing as the best results in seal- ing? A. — Oh, the catches vary a good deal. Q. — In this year, 181(0, Captain, you appear to have done about as v.'ell on the coast as you did in the sea? A. — I done better. Q. — Jus: tell the Commissioners — you have had consider able exiM Hence in sealing — when you are out sealing how many seals are there in a Ixinch that hunters go after ordi- nari'y; how do they travel? A. — Oh, we low»'r very often and we don't see seals at all. When the day is tine enough to put our boats out we lowe^ whether we see seals or not, when we consider that w<' ar on tlu' ground for seals. Q. — There are no exact po^^ftions on the chart where you would go and ancluir your boats? A. — There are a lot of pot'itions that ) would like (o anchor at. Q. — Hut near the islands? A. — No. sir; in»t particularly the islands. Q. — There is no such thing as seeing a large number of seals and lowering the boats and starting after them and killing them, is there? A. — I have seen that once. Q.— How nniuy did they get out of that lar^'e body of seals in that way? A. — I couldn't say; I was'i't master of the vessel, and therefore' I couldn't say. Q._Was it ou the "Sai>|)hire" in I.SSO? was on the ".\nuie C. Moore" in ISHO. Q.— Whereabouts? A.— Down olT Columbia River. Q.— Not tip iu Mehring Sea? A. - No, sir. (J. — Yoti never saw in Hehring Sea any nnch occurrence n« that? .\. — I've seen (piite a number of seals from the ves- sel, but I don't know as we ever lowered expressly for that purpose. Q.— You don't want to be understiMid as testifying that boats go out into a large herd of seals and catch tliem right and left? .\. — Xo. sir. Q.— The.v tak" them uj. s.'paralely? .\.— Yes. tiiin? A.— In isi)0 and 1891. Q. — How many white men were aboard voiir boat in 1S90? .\.— 2;^ altogether. Q.— Did you outfit your boat? A.— I did. Q. — Make out the bills for all the supplies? A. — I made out all the lists for the supplies. 30 Q.— O.K.'d the bils liefore they were paid? .\. — I did. Q. — Paid them yourself? A. — No, sir. Q.— Who owned the boat? A.— E. B. Marvin & Co. Q. — Was your brother a member of th<> firm at that tinu'? \. — I don't think he was a member of the firm, but he was an owner in the vessel. Q._That was the "Triumjyh?" A.— Yes, sir. Q.— You gave the tonnage of the "Trium]»h" as 98? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Was she not 100? .\ -Tliat was llio gross tonnage. 4^ the net tonnage was 98. Q. — On what basis do \oii esliniale t)i. cost of boarding the men on a scaling v(>ssel? A. — Will, 1 think about iifll a month. Q. — For white men? A. — Yes, ^ir. Q. — That is in Vicloriii. of co\irse? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Indians are boariled cheajier than white men, arr they not, (Captain? A. — Well, I couldn't say as to this .v< :ir. Q.— What ye.ir are you speaking of? .\.— Right \.ars I liiul while hunters. 5^^ Q. — Will you .inswer my (|U(sti(tn'' You were speakinii of your e.xperienc.' year by year handling white n>en? .\. — Yon ask nu' the cost of boarding Indians? Q. — I am talking about your answer of ^11 per moitili. When you answered that (|nesti(nt yon were speakint: wiih reference to yonr experience on the "Trinniiiii" in IMMt. as well as voiir ex)>eriein'e in other vessels? A. — Yes. sir. Q._Ii,' 1s,^!) ,ii,l yon have white men? .\.— I was im\le that year. We had Indians. I was mate of tlw "Sapi»hire." Q.— And v suitplies that year «n the "Sapphire?" A,— Well. I couldn't reallv stiy. but I think the captain or- dered the supplies and O.K.'d the bills. Q_.\t least you did not? A.— I had nothing whatever to do with it Q._\,,w 1 iisk you if the <'ost of boardiu'jr Indians i)er In- dian was not less than the cost of boarding white men? A. -It is. 39 '^^0 m WW 6io ■l)|'l,.u I ;< 10 20 (V. N. Cox — Ki'-eroKS.) Q. — Now, H|)!'ukin{i generally, btiscd upon your experii'Ute, whut i8 tlu' coHt |M-r niontli of boarding an Indian? A. — I think about |(i, the way I feed my Indians. Q. — About ^(J per niontli per man? A. — YeH. sir. Q. — Tliat is running tlirough what vears. captain? A. — '!»;{. *!)4. '»-» and '1W5. xamining your book. An- these two pages, i;{2 and 1X\, from which you have testi- fied today? A. — Yes, sir. ^o Q. — And will vou please t«'ll me what year page i;{2 refers to? A.— 18JK». ■ Q. — That year is not anywhere on the page, is it? .\. — No, sir. (i. — And what does page 13.*? rei>n'sent? A. — The same year. Q. — IMd you commence page 1.S.1 before you commenced page i;{2? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Then the January on page 1.'{;{ means .lanuary, 1SJ)0? A. — Yes, sii'. 40 Q.— And duly !>tli t on ]»ages 132 and l.'{:{? \. — That is where I keep the nc<'ount of the men, of the skins that came on Tmard of the vessel. Q. — .\nd you commenced January b(>fore you c in know just what time. Q. — And your total of the coast catch was 1200 that vear? A.— 1107. Q.— And the total (>f the Heliring Rea catch waw 47.^? A. — Yes, sir. That has Iwen added tlu-re within the last week. Q. — Is there any other memorandum that you kept of the wn to the quest i(m of ilie cost of outfitting scliooneis? .\. — Y«'S, sir. Q. — I want to ask yon, as a matter of fad, liow many schooners you had intuaily engaged in (lullilling yourself. Did you have anything to do with (Uitlitiing one in isso? A. — No, sir, since 1S00 I have fitted a vessel onl for sea. Q. — Previous to ISOO you fitted out none? .\. — No. sir. Q.— As to what it cost to feed Indi.ins in 1SS(J. 1SSS7. and ISSS, are you able to giv«' any information? .\. — Xo. sir. ii. — When did you come to I'ritish Columbia? A. — ^In llie winter of i8SS. Q.— So you hiid no knowledge whatever of ihi' way it was done prior to that? .\. — I didn't hardly kn<»w theiv was a sealing ship. Q. — .\nd I think you began to seal the very first year you went out? .\. — Di "SO, yes, sir. Q. — In the year IHOO, when you sealed, was the second year you liad been out in a sealing ship? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — Since ISOO you have been every year? A. — Y<'s, sir. Q. — In what ships? \. — In the "Triumjdi" every year but one when I was master of the "T<-. I?. Marvin." Q. — TIow nmny boats did you have? A. — I had six boats on the "Tiiumph" in 'OO or '01, since then F have had In- dians. ti.— ^Vill you tell me the number of men you had in those years? .\. — 2.*^ men. (i.— In 1M02, and IHO.I and ISOl did ymi fish with Indians? .^. — In 1S02 I was master of the sclioimer "Marvin." (^ — The other years you fished in the "Triumph'?" A. — With Indijins. ti. — When you har, also white men. do you think you could feed those 11 men at the snuie rate per head that you could the 2:?? A. — I am under tlie im- pression it will cost more to feed the 11 than it would the 2:'.. Q. — Ilave you any doubt about that? A. — I think it would cost more to f«>ed the 11 per man. Q. — Now, then, you fitted out this "Triumph"' for two years with white men? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Can you, in round figures, without fjoint; into particn lars, give me per year what the provision bill was? .\. — No, sir, without reference to my bills I could not. Q. — Who would have those bills? A. — They are at E. R. Marvin's office. Q. — Do you know Mr. Frank Adams? A. — I do. 0. — Tie is in the emi)loy of Marvin & Pompany? A. — One of the firm of E. B. Marvin & Pompanv. Q.— Will he know the bills? A.— He will. Q. — What two years was it von fitted up the "Triumph?" A.— 1800 and ISOi. Q. — Now, with Indians vou fitted up in what vears? A. — In ISOn, 1S04, 1S05 and 1800. Q. — How many of those years were yon in the "Triumph?" A. — All si.v years were in the "Triumph." Q. — Which year did vou go on the "E. Ti. Marvin?" .\. — 1802, I think." Q. — ^Hiat size is the "Marvin?" A. — T think she is al)ont 11 fi tons. O — Was she manned with Indians or white men? A.— White men. Q. — How many bo.its? A. — T liad six boats part of the season and a stern boat, and the latter part of the senson going to Popper Islands I had only five boats altosether. Q. — So there was not much difference in the eouipmeiit of the "Triumph" and the "E. R. Marvin?" A.— I don't Hii?il.- there would b<> hardly any difference, as T was really fitted out for six boats the same as the "Trinmtdt." 0. — When yon say you f'tt(>d up with Indians you have tlio bills for that aiso? * A. — 1 do, sir. Q— And you can produce Ihose bills? A. — I can produce the bills for evry year. Q.— When yon say you fitt«>d on< what voyage did you (it out for? A. — Leave here in JanuRr/ to come home about September; since then we Hited out for October, since 180^. Q.— You wen- asked by Mr. Warren as to wht'ther there was not a good deal of liick in this matter, and particularly whether tluM'e was not a good deal dependt'd on the way llie caittain handled his n>.en, and you said there was? A.— Yes. sir. Q._Assuniing that yon have a captain who knows how to handle his uumi. there is not much chance about it, is there? \._I consider llie chances are whether the captain stays among them and gets them or not. Q._If you once find seals the captain's du'y Is to keep among them? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— .\nd if you do that, is there much chance about it? A. — No chance wliatever. Q._Why? A.— If you stay among them you wiH Rt'* them. 6«3 10 20 30 (('. N. Cox— Ke (liieit.) Giistave Uaiiseu— Rt'culled.) il—Do seals lierd logotliei- as Mr. Warren sugiTests? A. — I never have seen them that way. y.— As a marter of tact, are the seals you get scattered about here and there? A. — Yes. Q.— Coming down to this point of cliance, did you ever go on a voyage when yon did not find them? A.— I never did, Q.— Given that you once find the seals, is there any more chance about it than when you find mackerel when j'ou are mackerel Ashing? A. — No, sir. Q.— Coming hack to the point (iboni the seals being air in a herd together, is thit tlie case at all in the months of July, August and September? A. — I have never seen them in that way. Q.— How do you find the seals then? A.— Scattered about. Q.— On certain grounds? A.— I seldom find them on the same grounds. Q.— How many will you find together, as a rule? A.— Three or four; two; very often one. Q. — And this idea of large herds with watchmen to keep llie pelagic sealer off, is there anything of that kind in Beh- ling Sea? A. — Not in my experience. Q. — Do you find tliem in larger bodies on the southern coast? A — Yes, sir. Q. — When they are going up to the sea? A. — On the south- ern coast we find them in larger bunches. Q. — And the remarks you have made when asked .about 25 seals together, and that sort of thing, does that apply to Beh- ring Sea? A. — No, .sir. Q. — Did you ever meet a mass containing as many as 25 seals close together in Beiiring Sea at once? A. — No, sir. Q. — You meet them in scattered numbers? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Over the feeding ground? A. — That is the case; yes, sir The Commissioners then rose. 40 Oommissioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, Between G;eat Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legielative Assembly, At Victoria, December 19, 1896. At 10:30 the Commisioners took their seats Alfred R. Bissett was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain, and after being duly sworn was examined out 5" of order bj' consent of counsel. Captain Gust.ive Hansen recalled on the part of Great Bri- tain. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Generally speaking you have been engag»'d in sealing for how many years about? A. — For about 17 years. ^0 Q. — Have you during tliat time been engaged actually as a liunter? A. — Yes, sir Q. — For how many years were you actually engaged as a hunter? A. — About 12 years. Q. — And during that time have you shot a large number of seals? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Now I want to ask you one question with regard to the shootiner of seals; a certain number are lost bv sinking nrv they not? A.— Yes, sir. m 11 i:imi 6i4 : ^!i.il^^ ■t|V!i V.\: ((Jushivo Ilausoii — Diirct.) y. — Can ^011 give iia any idea from yout own oxperienc iu 8liuoLiug a8 to wJial is tlie proportion of sealu you uay ai-u lost by siuliiug? A. — About 2 per cent. y. — Are the inajoiily of seals sliot while sleeping or wbeu 1 ravelling? A. — The niajorily are shot sleeping nowadays. Q. — When does the loss of the seal by, sinking generally oc- cur, is it when you shoot them sleeping or when they are jQ travelling? A. — When they are standing up — when they are travelling. ().— And your average of U per cent., does that apply to the si'als shot iu every position? A. — Yes, sir. Q- — Vou have staled that they are lost more when they are Hlandiug tip — wheu they are travelling? A. — Yes, sir. y. — NVhat is the reason, iu your experience, that you lose them most in that position? A. — They are very apt to face around to you when you are shooting them with a rifle. t)f course you will have to shoot them with a rifle because you 20 can shoot them further away than if you use a shot gun. in suddenly from the weather side and make a dive to leeward, but then we always find them geneialy iu going to windward. (i. — Now in your previ«)U8 examination you describe sonu* catcht's you made. I want you to come down to the year (i. — Were you seal (ishing in that year? A. — Y'es, sir. Q.— In what schooner? A.— The "Adela." Q.— How many boats had she? A. — She had seven cantM's. Q. — She had no boats? A. — She had a stern boat. Q. — .\i»l Indian hunters? .\. — Yes, sir. ij. — Do you remember tlie total of your crew including the hunters? A. — Nineteen is the total, I think. Q.._\Vliere did you hunt in ISSS? A.— I hunted par licularly outside on the coast here anj} up ti)ward8 the Fair 6o Wejither grounds. Q. — Did you po to Hehring Sea? A. — W \ sir. Q. — Tlefore I ask you the ttartioilars of youi itch, will you tell m«' where the log or <»ther books of the "Adela" are; have you got them? A. — No, sir. Q.— What became of them? A.— They were lost on the schoonj'r "Laura'' on Nootka Sound. Q. — You entered Rehrinc Sea that year about what time? A. — Somewhere about the 4th of July. 40 50 10 20 30 40 SO 6o 615 (Giistavi' Uuiim'U — Diroot.) Q.— How loui? (> or 7(1 miles. Q. — And the latter part, where were you? A. — A little to the east. Q. — How far east? A. — The direction was about nornor- west of I'nimak I'ass. Q. — And about what distance from the Pribylofl" Islands? A. — 150 miles at least. Q. — That was the history of your sealing in 1888? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did you go sealing in 1889? A. — Yes, sir Q. — In what schooner? A. — The Adela. Q. — What number of canoes had you? A. — Seven canm's Q. — AVas your crew the same as it was the year before? A — Yes, sir. Q. — Where did you go sealing that y-ar? A. — To the south ward and westward of the I'ribylofl' Islands. Q. — Did you go to Behring Sea? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — When did you enter the Behring Sea? A. — I think somewhere about the 8th July. Q. — And how long did you stay theie? A. — Till the mid- dle of August I think. Q. — What was your catch? A. — My catch that year was about 800. Q. — Was that in Behring Sea or altogether? A. — In Beh- ring Sea. 1 gol Ilaidah Indians from the (iueen Charlotte Islands. Q.— You caught no seals on the coast? A.— No, I caught I hem all in Behring Sea. Q. — You gave as a reason that you had some particular kind of Indians? A.— Yes, sir. Haidahs, from the Queen < 'harlotte Islar ds. Q.— Did }ou hunt on the coast at all' the coast in the spring. Q. — Did you catch any in the spring? • aught aboiit 200. Q.— That is not included in th" 800? Q.— You say you had Queen Charlotte Indians in the Behr- ing Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Is there any difference between them and the Indians you generally have? A. — Well, the Queen Charlotte Indians used guns altogether at that time. I do not know whether they might use sjieara now. M \. — We hunted on .\. — Yes, sir; I -No. 6i6 'HV\\v.\ lO 20 30 40 50 60 ((lUHliive UiMiKen — FMropf.) Q. — Which wtT«' the bi-Ht InilinnH, i\w IndiiinH thiit iiHod M]H'iir8 or thf Qdoeii Churhttto liulinnH that used guim? A. A. — I think iho«u who had the Hpeai-H were tlie iM'st. Q.— As u iimlter oi fa«t, when y«»u went out in 1889 liad ^•ou as expert hunters as you had the year JJefore? A.— N« sir, I liad nut. Q.— Did yon over hunt willi these same Indians after- wards? A.— N'.), 1 did not talie lliem any more. Q.— VVli.y? A.— One tiling is that 1 could not get tlu-m to lower the boats on Sunday. Q. — And when they did lower the boats were they as pood hunters as the others or were they noi? A.— No, they wen? not as fjcKid. 1 Ihiuli I had better chances that year than the year before, but these Indians would po out in the morn- inp and when tliey caupht 10, 12 or 15 seals, even if it was only f) o'clock, they would come back and not po back any more, I could not persuade them to po out apnin. Q— Your hunters in 188!) were not salisfactory? A.— No. (J.— And yon never tried IIumu before, that was your first experience witli them? A. — Yes. Q.— Why did you h'ave the Sea m early as the middle of Aupust? A.— i could not do anything "with the Indians, they would not hunt any njore. Q.— In 1889 what part of the Sea did you Inint in? A.— Particularly to the southward and westward and in the lat- ter part of the year to the eastward. Q. — Is that penerally speakinp the same pround you hunt- ed in the year before? A. — Y«'s, about the sjime ground. Q. — Did you go out in the year 1890? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — With the same number of canoes? A. — I had only six canoes in 1890. Q. — And the same 8«hoou do ILiil? A.— Tlic Hist part of tlio Boa Hon I wntt aimiui to llie wi-8tward uutil 1 beard of anything wrong, and tlion I went to the eastward. Q. — What was it that Bent .vou to tlie cant ward? A.— F»>r Hufety to get out of the way of tlie cutter. Q. — 1 want you to show me, on tlie chart, wliere did you go to the eaHtward in IHOO. what in the latitude and longitude of the spot you went to? A. — It is about Bti N. hit. and Uir» W. long. Q. — That is the position where you went to? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Is that the place where you were in the habit of hunt- ing seals before? A — Yes, sir, I have been there formerly. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing; Q. — How many years before 1M88 had you hunted? A. — I htarted in 1879. Q. — What vessel did you start on? A. — The schooner "Flying Mist," of San Francisco. Q. — In that year y«Mi w«'re huntiug on board? A. — I was second mate. Q. — In 1880 what vessel were you on? A.— On the same vessel. Q.— What position did you hold in that ship? A.— Second mate again. Q. — And in 1>^81 what vessel were y«m on? A. — I was on llie schooner "Otter." Q. — What position did you hold? A. — Boat steerer. 30 Q. — And in 1.S82 what were you? A. — I was hunter. Q. — In what ship? A. — The "Alexander." Q. — And In 1883 what were von? A. — I was hunter on the "Adela." Q. — Were yon hunting seals particularly? A. — Yes, sir, seals and otters both. Q. — And in 1884 what were vou on? A. — I was hunter on Hie "Adela." Q. — Who was the master? A. — Capt. Isaacson. Q. — And in 1885 what vessel were you on? A. — I was 4° captain and hunter of the "Adela." Q. — I suppose captain you are a pretty good shot, are you not? A. — Well, I don't linow. sir; I would rather somebody else would tell you that than myself. Q. — You have been pretty fortunate every time you have l)een out hunting? A. — Yes, sir, I got my luck. Q. — And you generally got most every seal you shot? A. — \o, I did not. (i. — You generally liit most every seal you shot at? A. — It is pretty hard to tell; it is hard to tell whether you hit liiem or not. (i.— In the lirst part of your hunting you only used the lilies and you did not use shot guns at all? \. — I used the lities. Q.— With ritles you shoot at a much longer distance? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— You are a pretty good shot with a rifle? A.— I do not call myself a good shot, I stand a chance with some of them iiiivliow. Q.— But you had a good deal of expeiience? A.— I had a iiiHH\ deal of experience, yes, sir. Q.—Tlie vessols that you sealed in were from Ran Francis- ( ()? A.— The first going off, yes, sir; the "Flying Mist," the "Otter" and the "Alexand<'r" all belonged to Ran Francisco. Q._Tliev bebmged to Liel)es & To? A.— The "Otter" and ".Mexander" did, and tlie "Flying Mist" belonged to the rihhetts Bros. Q._Wlio owned the "Adela? A.— A firm in Yokohama. 50 60 •'^^^^^^^^H PP^f : "'^^^^^^^B •^^^^^^^^B \ 'I- iH^^^^^H 'illl jHIII i } 1 r.is u ■HIMjiM to 20 30 40 50 60 (DllNtllVC lllltlMfll ( 'fOHM.) H. — I Hii|i|MiHc tlu' JinoiiniN (»f III)' ?iriiiM who owimmI tlicwi llirt-t* HliipH .voii i-<>fd and taken to Pan Francisco, Q. — Th that one of the Pribylott' Islands? A. — Yes. sii'. Q. — Did you ever land on the PribylolT Tslands auaiii? A. Yen, sir. Q.— Did not yon mid them in 1SS4? .\.— Yes. sir. Q.— Did not von raid thorn in the "Otter" in 1SS1? The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Win should we spend any time on this? Mf. Lnnsinf;: — I want to show what kind of a witness they produce. The Commissioner on HH— UftlirtM't. C. N. Cox — Itt'-t-allLMl.) y.— And yMi leporlcd ii all Ht'lti-iiiK Hen rnti-h wIh-ii >ou jrot buck? A. — Y«'H, Hir. ii. — Now iu istto didn't yon r*-|iort to the (JustoniH llonMe 431 HcnlH? A. — I do not rfinoniltcr. (|. — Would not tliat lit' abont ri|;lit? A. — I imaKint' I bad Konn'wli«'iv about TitM* in lHiM». I do not cxartl.v it-nH-inbcr. (). — If it a|>|)*- ii'H an VM in tin* l>ool it nii^'bt b«> no. Q. — Did yon make a r<'|tort in .vour own bandwritiuK? A. — ( 'Crtainly. I'vcry tiiiic I canu' in. Q. — For bow loan liavc voii done that? A. — For all the tinu' I liavc b«>cn nniHt«>r. Q. — Ro the CuHtoiiiH FIouhc rcpoi't for your vckhcI would be correft? A. — J think ho. Uedirect exaiiiiiuition t)y Mr. T'etors; (J. — You nnidc I lie Htatcnii'nt, in answer to Mr. LanHinK, that you did not ^o into ItclirinK ^*'ii !■> 1)^!* not refer to the Huninier wlu-n you bad iM'eii there? A. — No, nir. Q. — In 1SJ)t» you were not in Itehrin); Sea in the fall? A. — No, I wan not on that side. Q. — You were not on tlie American side w<'re you? A. — Xo, Hir, no more than tliat I eanie and went, in eomin^ back to south wardH of the Aleutian Islands. The witness was further examined in refiM-enee to Claim No. 24, tlw schooner "Winnifred." Clarence N. Cox, re called by Great T^ritain. "♦^ Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — I was examining you, Mr. Cox, with regard to tlie ex- penditures on i-ertain v«'ssels which you had fitted out in the years 1H1M) and IS!)1 A.— ISJMl is the first vessel I fitted out. (J. — And you could not tell me from memory the amount of the expenditures? A. — No. Q. — That is for i)rovisinns? A. — Yes, sir. i}. — Have you looked at it since? A. — Y'es, sir, we have none throufjh the bills apitroximately. 50 Q. — Oive me approximately, for those two years? And in order to make it so it can easily be checked. A gentleman who is more familiar with the vouchers than this man will be produced here in court with the vouchers, and if my learned friend wants to go throujjh with them he can. Witness:— IWM. my provisittn bill was J^1,K'{2.28. Q. — For what schooner? A. — The big "Triumph." Q. — Give me the next one. A. — That was white men and 60 ^'k' tl''8t year I had the Si washes — Indians — would be 18!K{. My provision bill was¥2,4:U. Q. — How mapv Indians? A. — I liad \^ canoes and 26 In- dians. Q. — And some white men besides? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — How many whitemen? A. — Four sailors, two mates, the cook and myself. Q. — And those are the only years you have got there? A. —The onlv vears. 1 hadn't time to ro tbroHRh any further. Ip^ ■lil'll till!, 620 ((■. N. Vox- Direct— Cross. Eiiiik' Kimihu— Direct.) Q. — The siiiiu' vessel one year eaiTied white men and the other Indians? A.— Yes, sir. Mr. Adams in tlio office of E. H. Marvin & Companv. can prodnce vouchers for each and every year. Il.v the Commissioner on the part of tlie TTnited States: Q. — f 'aptain Cox, dops that differ from your estimate of |11 10 and ffi. Did you figure that ont to see? A. — FiRurinp tliis out rehitively in 1H!(| 1 tliinlv the average come about fll.32. Q. — Substantially supports your statement? A. — Yes, sir. The CommisMioner on the jmrt of the United States: — Is there any occasion to spend any more time on the nmtter on either side? Mr. Dickinson: — There is vour Honour. a reserved cross-examination 20 30 The Commissioner on the part of the United States :^Upon direct examination he stated about fll and he supports it, and I merely asked !he question whether it was necessary to spend any more time. Mr. Peters: — I want to ask him as to the average cost per man for the Indians. \Vitness: — An average of ^H.!)4. That is, there are Indians and white men together; there were 2(» Indians and eiglit white men on the vessel. Oss-exaniination by Mr, Warren: Q. — I do not think it appears in the examination as to the number of months the voyage is expected to cover. The Commissioner im the part of the- United States: — \Vliy do you want to go into that. Mr. \Varren? His figures sujt port the figures brought out on direct examination. Mr. Warren: — I want to get the length of the voyage that 40 is all, in 1891 and im?.. Mr. Dickinson: — That you fitted out for? Witness:— IS'.d was from Jantiary ISth. I was gone to August Ist. Wo figured it for seven inonths. The Commissioner on the part of the United StateR:— The question is, what time yon fitted out for? Witness : — Seven months. 50 Q.— In 1H!)3 what time did you figure for? A.— We figur- ed for the Utth of January and 10th of Sejttember. Einile Ilamlas, recalled on tlie part of (ireat Uritain, being 60 one of the six witnesses, to be called under the ruling of the court : Direct examinaficm by Sir C. H. Tupper; Q. — You were out sealing in 1S8H? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— In IH81»? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— 1891? A.— Yes, sir. (i— '802? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— ;.'93? A.— Yes, sir. 621 10 w (Euiile liainlttM — Direct.) Q.— I>!iy4 ? -\ .—Yes, sii-. (J. — Aud this year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You hav-' beou engaged each aud evei^ jear as a luinter? A. — Excepting tliis year. Q. — What year was it when .vouv attention was first directed to the question of the seals shot aud lost? A. — In which regard, as to siulving? Q.— Yes? A.— It was chieliy in l)Hr2. y.— llow was it that your attention came to be directed to that? A. — One of the cutters boarded us and the officer ask- ed us how many seal usually sank and no one appeared to kuow excepting by guess work. Q.— That was in 18!):i? A.— Y^s, sir. y. -After that, what did you do? A.— After that 1 kept accouut. Q.— For your own satisfaction? A.— Yes, sir. (2.— How did you keep that account? A.— On the books 2o there (indicating.) Q- — Was it an account in reference to your own shooting? A. — My own shooting, yes, sir. H. — Did those books, as a matter of fact, contain more than your own shooting? A. — One nior*; hunt<>r only. g.— To what years do those books relate? A.'— 18!);{, 181)4. 181)3. Q. — ^Vhat 8y.steni did y(Mi adopt in ordei- to keep a record of the seals lost by sinking after beins.^ shot by you? A. — The first year I put down the figures what I missed and what sunk. Q. — (Joing back over IS'Xi (hen turn to the first entry in this record? A.— April 18<);{. Q. — April is the first month in which you started this re- c(ud? A. — The first month I sunk any seal that year. Q. — How many seals did vou shoot in that month? A.— 1(14. Q.— And secured Hi4? A.— I got iM._ (i. — How many did you shoot and lose? A — I sunk three that month. Q.— And on what date did you shoot your first seals in that month? A.— On the 5th. (2. — You shot 14 on the ."th, was it? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Five on the (ith. five on the l(»th, 25 on the llth. six on the 12th, six on the i:?th? A.— Yes, sir. il — Now, on (hat day how many did yon shoot and los*- by sinking? A. — I got six and shot two more and sunk them. Q.— On the ir>(li you shot and secured two, 17th six, 18th 2(». 2()thH? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Now, on '.lie 2lHt, you shot how nmny? .\. — I got six. (i.— Did vou shoot any more? A.— I sunk one. Q.— On the 22nd you shot lit and seoired them? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— 2:?rd five. 20th 17, 28 13, ;Wth 4. So that out of that lo( (hat month yo\i lost only three that you shot? A.— Y«'8, sir. „ 4 -.- Q.— Have von another month in that year? A.— ^es, sir (J.— In the" month of May you shot and sec\ired 7a, is that riglit? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— And vou shot at and lost by sinking 1? (i.— That' was on the 8tli? A.— Yes. sir. sunk one. Q._You shol 74 aud secured 7X and lost one from sinlnng iif(er being sho(? A.— Yes, sir. , , , , ,,« ti.— Take the next i.iondi. -lune. You shot and secured 17? ■ Q^_\mv,'"whi>( is the uexl. What year do you come to now? A.— 18!>4. "Oscar and Hattie." 40 io ')0 .\. — Yes, sir. I got 7:5 and 111 'lil'hw I I lO 20 30 622 I^Kiiiilc UainlaM — Direct — Cross.) Q. — Now iu April, 1894, you shot 89 seals and secured 98? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Losing one from siukiug after belnp shot? A. — That is correct. Q. — In May you shot 85 seals? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You secured 84 and you lost one from sinking after be- ing shot? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Take the next niontli. .lune. Vou shot l(»2 seals, all told? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you lost none from sinking after being shot? A. — None. Q.— August is the next month of 1894? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— Did you lose any that you shot that month? A.— None at all. Q. — How many did y<»u shoot? A. — 2fi. Q. — And secured tliem all? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What in September? A. — September is out. Q. — The other record is given you by your fellow hunter, what is his name? A. — Hake. Q. — Where does he live? .\. — TTt're in Victoria. Q. — Kept in the same way? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And is contained in that book? A. — Y«'s. sir. Q.— What is this year? A.— 1S9.'». Q. — You have a book for 189.') kept on the same plan? A. — Hardly the same. Difl'erent kind of book. Q. — Kept for the .same object? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What is your first month in 1895? A.— March. Q. — How many seals did you shoot? A. — 28. Q. — Out of the 28 seals you shot how many were lost from sinking? A. — None. Q.— What is the next month? A.— April. ij. — How many seals did you shoot in Ajtril? A. — 101. (i. — Out of them how many were lost? A. — One. Q. — 192 you Khot and lost one securing 191? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What is (lie next month? A. — May. Q. — now many seals did you shoot iu May? A. — 45. Q. — Did you lose any? A. — No. sir. Q. — What is Hie' next month? A. — June. Q. — ITow many did you shoot in .lune? A. — 21.' Q. — Did yon lose any? A. — None. Q.— What is (he next month? A.— July. I killed ao. Q- — How many did yoii lose from sinking? A. — None. ().— .\ugust? A.— I shot .">4 and only got .^(1 of them. Q. — And lost the others how? A. — lly sinking. (■i- — After being sho(? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What is (he next moiidi? A. — September. Q— TTow many did yon shoot in September? A.— I shot three . Q.— .\nd .sank two more? A.— 1 killed (Ive and got three. Q.— Is that the end of your record? A.— That is the end of my record, yes. sir. ('ross-examinalion by Mr. Warren: *-l- — Where w( re yon shooting the seals in those years, Iteh- ring Sea altogether? A.— No. sir; on the coast, the Jajmn (3y coast and i'opper Islands. Q. — Some of those years yon were not allowed to shoot in Hehring Sea? .\. — No. sir. Q. — So that proportion does not apply to Itehring Sea? A. — It didn't ai»ply to llehring Sea. Q. — The numiier of seals yon shot a( and wounded and escaped are iioi included in that? .\. — No, sir. Q. — Thai mei'cly iii'liides (he seals wherever yon may have eliot tliem (hat were killed and sunk? A. — Yes, sir. 40 .SO ■■ : ;/; 10 20 40 60 62 3 (Kmile Uanilais — Crdss.) (2. — Vou ai'o not able to state the proportion of seals that vou shot at and \vouu "Triumph" in ISOO in Rehrinsj Sea? A.— Retween four and tive hundred, 1 believe. Q. — What wa.'* the tonnajre of the "Annie C. Moore" that you were on In 1800? A. — I don't know exactly, over tOO. Q. — About \2~, ton.s. is she not? A. — No, I don't think she is that much. Q. — How many boats did she larry in 1889? A. — Six boats and a stern Itoat. Q. — ITow'Iony; was she in the Sea? A. — I think we entered the Sea on the 7lh of July. Q. — And left when? A. — It must have been between the 20th and L'Hth '«f August. Q. — When did you lower last in tlie Sea that year? A. — If I remember rijjht, the 17lh of Atiffust. Q. — You wer(> not warned o\it in 1889? A. — No, sir. Q. — No vessels sjtoke yon and told you that seizures were beinp made and drove you out for that reason? A. — Not that 1 remember of. Q. — In 1888 I believe you were on the "Annie C. Moore?" .\. — Yes. sir. I was. Q. — What time did you }:o into the Sea that year? A. — I think it was th- 20th of July. Q.— What time did you leave? A.— About the 20th of .Xufiust, I believe. I am not certain of the date thouph. Q. — Are you just fjuesslnn at it? .\. — Just what I can re- member. Q. — You have some memory of it? \. — I have some mem- ory of it, I know it was thereabouts. Q.— If you ar.> ^juessinR at it. I do not care to have you answer it. Q. — I don't remember the date. Q. — Very near the 20th? A. — It must have be«'n very near I tie 20th, because you had finished your sealing season. Q.— What was the last you lowered in 1888? A.— I don't remember. Q.— Were you warned out in 1888? A.— No. sir. Q. — Y(Ui lef. .\ugust 20th because you had finished your sealing season? .\. — I dcm't know why flie captain left. Q. — There was no special reason why yon left tliat yeai'. was there? A.— I liad nothing to do with that part. know whether there was anv special reason or Q- not ; .\. — I ilon't know anvthing about it. Q. — Was it good weather wheii.you left? .\. — Nc'arly calm for two days before we got out through the I'ass. and nearly lalin for another day. Q. — Then a breeze s]M'ang ujt and you came out? A. — Yes, sir. ii- — Had you any bad weather just before the calm? A.— Not that I remember of. % ; ; 1 !■. 'lil'lim lO 20 30 40 50 Go 624 (Ei-iile liuiuluM — Cross — lle-dii'oct.) Q. — How many boats did the "Annie C. Moore" have in the Sea in the year 1888? A.— Six. Q. — How large a crew, do you remember? A. — Well, it would be three men to a boat, captain and cook and mak' and a spare hand. Q. — About 2:1 men that trip? A. — I suppose about tliat? Q. — Do you remember how many skins the "Annie C. Moore" took in Hehring Sea in tlie year 1888? A. — Some- where about 700, a few over, I believe. Q. — 715 was it not? A. — Something like that. Q. — Had white hunters in 1888? And in these other years when you were on the "Annie C. Moore?" A. — Yes, sir. Re-direct examination by Sir C. TI. Tupjter; Q. — I think you said Cai)tain Hackett was captain in 1888? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Who in 1889? A.— Captain Hackt>tt. (J. — How were your provisions in 1888 when you left the Sea. Do yon remember how they were lasting, had yon siif (icient to remain longer? A. — T know in 1888 we were short. Q. — Have you any lecolk'ction abont the provisions in 1888? A. — I don't remember. Q. — How was the sealing in 1888? When you stopped, were you making good catches or poor? A. — I can't hardly remember. Q.— Can you in 1889? In 1889 we had over 1,200. Q. — How was the scaling at the time you left? A. — I don't remember. Q. — Did you state when you came out in 1800? A. — I think on the 25t1i of .August. Q. — Do you remember anything about the sealing at that time? A. — Tt was a poor year witli us. Q. — What was the condition of the weather? A. — We had bad weather. Q. — Who was your <'aptain in 1890? .\. — Clarence Cox. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — When 1 asked you as to 1889 you did not remember that you were short of provisions when you came out? A. — I don't know that tiiat was the reason. Q. — You do not say that that is tlie icason for your coming out? A. — I don't say tliat that is the reason. Sir C. H. Tapper: — My learned friend does not understand that. The witnes.s did not say to me that tht; reason was tliey were short of provisions, but I asked him as a matter of fait whether tliey were sliort of provisions. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Tliat is as 1 iMuh'rstood it. Of <()urse it opened to Mr. Warren to say fhat, if there w;'n Tliat fact. tli<> witness ouglit to have known tiiat it was a siitlicient reason. {}. — N<(W, witness, the boat was e(|uip])ed for altout that v(tyage, was slie not? A.— 1 don't know; I had nothing to do wi'tli that. (i. — If the provisions ran out she must have been? A. — I snpjiose so. il — .\nd that was ab from time to tim< in chief I do iio( know where we are to land. I do not want to take the time no;- fill tlu' record with rebuttal and sur-rebuttal. Mr. Mun- sie is owner of this ship and claims through tlu' IJrItish (iov ernment. lie has testitied upon the stand in chief as to the <|uantily of provisions aboard, fully aiul to his heart's content, and has been fully cross-examined. To explain his reasons why he could not stipport his testimony in chief he said he could not jret the other nu'ii that were on the shij) — named them all over — soni«' dead and some he could not net, aiul amoiifr those was Totsford, Russell and this ntan; ami I call your Honours' attenlion to the fact that he said he did not know where Cotsford was. and did not know where Hussell was, and thus ex])lained why he was not ct»rroborated by some one aboard the ship. Now, when we find a man and jtro (luce him, then he ijoes on to make that a part of his case. which he should have made in chief. He was an interesled wit!i(>ss. and presumably men like this witiu'ss were not in fei'esfed. He should have corroborated his testimony in chief as to the amount of provisions on board, and not have waited until we attacked his case, and, as we believe, broken it down on cross-examination. This evidence, it seems to us. sMjiple- ments his main case, and is not at all in the nature of re buftal <'vidence. iji'hi Mr. Hodwell: — I submit that this is m)t a correct way (o put the matter. In the first jdace, we jiroved by vouchers that there was a certain amount of provisions put on board that ship. The defense s;ivs that cannot be so because, when she landed at Ounal.iska, there was only n certain amount. :is inventoried, taken by fh(» oRicer who w<'nt on board, and 50 then, in corrctboration of that statement, they bring the wit ness Totsford •<• swear in direct examination that there was a rumor on board that the provisions would run short. This witness disprovi s that rumor as n fact, and he also rebuts the lu-esuniptio'i made by the defense that then- was not a sufricieni quantity of prctvisions on board by showiii}; that at the time of the seizure the siii)» was well jM-ovisidiied. With reference to fliis witness not beinp; here before I have in my hand a returiu-d dead letter, written to liini at Seattle. (tost marked Xovemlx-r I'itli. I f;oi some informalion about ^° this witness and we sent a man to Seattle, who found him and broutrhl liiu' over. Here is the letter and T will ask this Avitiu'ss to o|)eii it. I say that ATr. Afunsi<''s statement is •'xactly correct. He stated tliat he had sent for the witness and had not beard from him, and (hat is perfectly true. (To witness.) Q.— Wliat is the date of that letter? A.-- (Examiniii),'.)— The letter is written on (he 12lli of Xovenib.r. (>. — .Vddiessed (o you? A. — Yes, sir. 10 637 (Jaiiu'S Munger — I Urcct.) Q._At Seattle? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Yon never got it? A. — No, sir. The CfunniisHJoner on the |mr( of Hie I'nited Stales: — What was this man's jilace aboard tiie vessel? Mr. Boilwoll: — lie was a boat sleerer. The Comniissionor on the part of the I'nited Slates: — Has ho ])er8onal knowledge of the nmonnt of jnovisions on board of that vessel? Mr. Bodwell:— I propose to show ,voh %vhy he makes that statement. The Commissioner |d.v to fhe Conrt on the }j;ronnd that you were, throngh some mistake, nnable to piocnre the witness in order, he do«'8 not raise ob- 20 jcction. Mr. Dickinson: — Not exactly, yonr Honour; I said tlu'v had taken an entir<'ly dilTerent ground. As to sjetlins the wit- ness there may be a qiiestion of diligence. Mr. I'eters arfjued this point, but tliron';li a misunderstarxling his remarks wer(> not taken (lown by iJie reporter. The substance of them, however, appear farther on. Mr. I'eters: — I simply |)roduced that letter in answer to ihe snjjfjestion of Mi'. Diclvinson lliat Mr. Mnnsie's statement that he could not >jet the witness is incorrect. I know what is in the letter; it was sent accordiu}! to the best information lie had and was returned from Ihe dead-letter ofli<'e. After- wards we sent a man over to hunt him up, when we found how this tliinpr was trendinp. Mr. Bodwell: (To witness,) Q. — Do yon know anything about the state n. The Commissioner on Ihe part of Her Majesty: — I do not think that in nbuttal you can go into tlie (|nestion as to whether or not there were provisions on board. It would have been another thing if you liad sought to get the evidence in on the ground that you had tried to get the witness and could not get him. but I understand that ground of otTering it is expressly withdrawn. Mr. Bodwell: — Do 1 understand your Honour to say this: That we having proved a (|iiantity of pnnisions on board Ihe ship, the defence having given evidence that :it ii certain lime in tlie voy; <,'e there was not a large (|uaiitily of provisicuis on board— tile inference being that if tlieir case is true ours Is incorrect — that we are not allowed in rebuttal to prove lliat, at the tinu' of which we speak, I hi' ship was well provisioned? The rommissioner on Ihe part of Her Majesty :— Col sford does not sjieak as a mailer of fact, as to whether there were provisions. Tm V'l ■lll'll> 13 I I 20 30 40 50 Co 638 (JiiiiU'H Miiii^c-i- — I >irt'»t.) Mr. Pftei'B:— CotHford in not the only witiu'SH, biMiiuse tliey also biinv; in the wifiu'SK Iliiynor. who tostifiwl that he only saw on board Hie ship a certain uunibcr of boxes of bis uit and a few bags of tlonr. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty:— How long before yonr vessel was at Ounalaska does your question now relate to? You eaii ask as to the quantity of provisions on board the vessel at Ounalaska. but. as I understand it, you are askinjr as to the (]uantity of jirovisions on board at the time of which t'otsford was speakiiif;. Mr. Hodwell: — No, the question 1 put, your Honour, was this: "Just alioiit the time of the seizure, and limiting your reply to a date before the seizure, what was the quantity of provisions on board the ship?" Mr. Dickinson: — ('an they prove, if your Honour will bear with me a moment, in relmttal, the amount of jirovisions (»ii l»oard (he ship at Ounalaska. It is a pait of their case to show the property seized, and of course the gist of the in- quiry is the amount that was seized. They in chief show that the United States took in the seizure such a quantity of jtrovisions Tiny put in their testimony in chief to satisfy the minds of the (Commissioners that the I'nited States seized that quantity of i»rovisions. We meet it l>y the testimony of Mr. Raynor — Mr. Uaynor being present at the time and place of taking tlie inventory — that tliere was only such and such quantity of provisions seized. Now, can it lie true, tliat tliey can, after pnttnig in their testimony in chief on the direct issue, come in again and rebut l)y saying tliat notwithstand ing we put in the i)roof of what was there, tlien we will cor- roborate our testimony in chief by showing the amount of provisions on lioard at tlie time, not in contradiction of Mr. Hi vnor, that they could say that Mr. Raynor was not present when the inventory wjis taken, that would be rebuttal; but it ii-. not rebuttal to call the witness upon the same point that they could liave made in chief as to the (piantity of provisions without referen((> to Raynor or any other witness that we called. Mr. I'eters: — We differ on tliis very materially. I submit that the contention that my learned friend has pressed upon the (Annmissioii really amounts to this: That we may be al- lowed to rebut (crtaiii facts. Itut we may not be allowed to rel»ut the alleged ca.se made l»y the defence. Now, what is the ca.se. Our < ase was that we put on board at Victoria a certain amount of goods, and as the ship went to Hehring Sea and afterwaids was seiztd, we asked you to assume that a very large proportion of those goods remained on board that ship when she got to Ounalaska. I'ut how do tliey assume to meet that case.' Tiicy assume to meet it l>y throwing out suggestions that something must have happened lietweeii times, thereby ussiiniing 'liat in some other way, either by trading or in some otlier way, those goods were taken from the ship and were not on Iward of her when she w^ns seized and taken to Ounalaska. How do they attempt to su]tport that? They alteinj)! to do so by a witness named Raynor and a witness named fotsford, and the cross-examination of our witnesses, showing thi't Mnnsie had a trading post. They bring in Cotsford as one witness, and they say what Cotsford says, that at a c<'rtaiii tiiiK on that voyage there was a rumor e.xistant on th" ship that (he iirovisions were short. Now, wliat does my learned fri< iid say? He says you can rebut that by simply showing by another witness that this rumor did not e.xist, aiid. as I said before, how do's lliat leave voii? With witness \ saying tlie rumor existed and witness H say- 10 029 (•laiii'-M Muiigur — DiHtuHsiuu.) iii^ the rumor . oil" affidavit 8lio\viii<{ one tiling and another nffldnvit HhowiuK another. Wliat are you to do in a case of tliat liind? Surely, anytliiiifj wliicli will tend in your original case, and whether you ought not to have adduced your evidence at that time; becatise the point of seizure was a point that may n(»t have On •ijl'll'^i lO 630 (Jnnn'K MiinRcr — T>iH<-nHHioii.) iM'on ill .vonr mind, nnd tlio ovirtcnco iM'iiriiif; d on to ])rodiM>(> uh in youi- l(iiowl*'d);i>. It Htn-niH to nu>, just now, Unit tlie nddiiciiiK of tlic ovidoiicc l»,v you honriuK on tlu> quantity of t;<>r man swearing fliere was no such rumor, have I not the riijlit to rebut the presuin])tton tliat not only did the rumor not exist but in fact there was no foundation for it. Mr. Diclvinson: — It became material for them to show In this main case that tliey could have cau^rht a large number of seals after their seiKiire. Now, the context shows that we did not call out on the itoints we are now discussing this talli about tlie rumor, except as the method of tixing it in tlie mind of the witness tlie date they proposed to leave the sea. Cotsford ujion tliis point was called on the question of when 3° they proposed to leave the sea, and he said on tlu; 25111 of August, or the «'(5tli, as the case may be. They i»ut in the main case and we put Cotsford on. They show that they could have causjht seals up to the 1st of September, as part of their case, and they claim prolits on the probable catch. (Jotsford swore distiairtly on direct examination that they proposed to leave on the L'tlth. We pressed him, as the con- text shows, without knowing what his answer would be, to fasten that as a fact, by asking him what made him fix that date. It does not show that we asked him what provisions were on board. A d it(> is so elusive in the mind of an ordi- nary witness that counsel, in tixiiig a date which is material, will always naturally cjill out from the witn«'ss how 1 ■ gels that in his head. It was a direct contradicti<»n of tl " case of (ireat ISritain as to the time when tlu' sliii» was to leave the sea. Now, the context was to show how were you about to fix that date is there anything in your mind which fixes the date? lie then volunteered the statement that there was a rumor as to the shortness of the provisions. Mr. Peters: — The context shows that Mr. Dickinson had asked (luestions as to tlu? date when they were going to leave the sea, but it also shows that this question was brought out in anwer to a direct open question: "Q. — Did you hear anything said about the provisions on board? A. — There was a remark passed that if we stayed to that time we were liable to be short of ]»rovisi(ms going home; who started the yarn I don't know, but it started aboard by some one." The whole context shows that Mr. Dickinson had a special statement he wished to bring out and he put tlu? question in that view. Tlu! Commissioner on the part of Tier Majesty: — 1 have already express-'d an opinion that I thought that Mr. Peters had gone about as far as he could in the line of the rumor that the witness Cotsford said existed. I cannot say that his Rubse(iuent argument has not to some extent shaken my mind. I am not sure that if one witness says there was a ru- 40 50 60 10 (53 r (•laiiifH Miin^fi- — IMi'cct.) iiior and anotlur Ha,vH tlu>r(! waH nut, and tlic.v \v*>rc liolh in way of knowing wlicllicr (lure wan nr not, if llu'i-c waH a slali! of things wlii«li would loiroboiat*' tlu- rumor, or prove it t-ntircly untrue, tliat nii;;lit not bt> f^ivi n in fvidfuce in <-«)n- iH'clion witli tlic ciicuniNtanccH npon wl irli ilio rumor lui^ilit Ih> conHidtMH'd io have Ntarti'd, or \tliii li would tend to an utter denial of tlie ]MmHibility of tlu Hl.:!tinK of HUeli n rumor. I must Hay that I feel emtiarraHHed to some extent by liavin^ expiiHsed an o[»inion adverHe to the view of Mr. I'eterH on liiat point. 1 am not sure i>ut tlu're is a (rood deal in the view lliat lie jMitH forward, but until eonfeieuce with my learned brother I shall retain the ojdnion that I have expressed, and think that the witness has been asked as far as he ihti>l stii,v tluTi', do joii know? A. — I can't tell; 1 don't know, lie went away to nonie place, I know. CroHM-cxauiiuation by Mr. Dickinson: Q.— Where were you born? A.— Australia; nt Hydney. Q.— What 1h your aj^e? A.— Thirty years in May. Q.— Next May? A.— Yes. Q.— WIk'H di>l you couu' to Victoria? A.— 1 do not know. yourHelf to an Kwering my (|u<'Htion if you can. How long had you been in Victoria in l.s«« when you went on the "Carolena'Z" A.— Twelve or fifteen years. Q. — What was your business before you went on the "Caro lena?" A. — I was an iron moulder." Q.— Is that riRht now? A.— That is ripht; I was an iron and brass moulder. Q. — Were you not keeping a bar in this town? A. — Not before that. Q. — Not before you went on the "Carolena?" A. — No. Q. — .\nd you never had been sailing; before? A. — No. Q. — Wlu're were you an iron and brass moulder? A. — The .Albion Iron Works. Q. — Who «'niploved you? A. — A man named Spratt. Q.— Where is lie? A.— Oe is d«'ad. Q. — Did any one else ever employ you as a moulder lu're? A. — Y«'s, th«' company after that. Q. — Who is tlie manager of tlie company that employ<'d you? A. — I think ISulIen was the manager. Q. — Who emjdoyed you? A. — A man named Demniick. (J. — You never had been to sea before except wlien yon came from Au.stralia; you had never been before you went on the "Oarolena?" A.— No. Q. — What led you to ro on board the "Carolena?" A.— For my health. Q. — Who employed you to go on the "Carolena?" A. — Mr. Munsie. Q. — Who spoke to you about going on the "Carolena"? A. — Mr. Munsie. Q. — .\ny one else? A. — No. Q. — Did you have any relatives in Victoria? A. — Lots of them. Q. — .\re you n mairfed man? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Who* is your wife? A.— Captain Campbell's daugh- ter. Q. — Yon have a sist(>r here? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — Whom did she mariv? A. — Mr. Be>K- (/.— WhiH' 8 .Muii);cr — Cioss.) Q. — Wlu'i't' Will' yo\\ when ^011 went U> Scnltk-? -V, — No plai't (i.— You were doiiif; nolliiiiK? A. — No. Q. — When you wor*- idle did yon sec luufli of jioiir sister and vonr brol her in-law? -No, nol verv niueh. Q. — I thiiiiv vou said thai vou liad a iarjje uuuilier of reia- lives here.? -Yes, sir. 10 (i.— Did .von see nuieh of Mr. Munsie? A. — No. sir. (i.— Was he in voiii- place sonielinies? A. — No. Q. — He never came in to tall\ to vou about tliis case? A. — Q. — And did not lallv to .von about it before .vou went to Seattle? A.— \« Seatth'? -I supj) .vour faniilv liere Jvuew wliere vou were in -I din't tell anvone I was noniff. Q. — Your wife and relatives knew where .vou were? A.— Yes, sir. 20 (2. — And cver.vone of .vonr intimate friends and relatives knew where .vou were? it. -Yes, there was no secret about (i. — Did an.vone see .vou about coiniuf; over here iM((i|^ Q.— Prior to this last week? A.— On Frida.v. Q.— HefoH' that' was a man over there. Q. — When? A. — About ei^l't da.vs ajjo. ().— Did he claim to be from Mr. Munsie? 30 ()._ I will take that back, ther -Yes, si I Q. — And then another man came over to ,vou (his last week^ A.— Yes. il. — Do yon know the name of the man who came ever to you the first time? A. — Yes. (i. — Did he have any dilliculty in tlndin^j; you": tie bit; not much. Q. — Everyone knew where you wer<'? .V. easilv find out. -Th A lit •uld Q. — Your family knew your address in Seattle? A. — Oh, 40 ves. (2.— And Mr .Itechtel knew if A.— Yes. Q. — AVas there anythini' said to y(»u by the man who cami- over to you eiu;ht f'ii.V'i ajjo abotit ^r. Ueclitel beiuji' on the "Carolena" when she sailed? A. — No. Q --Xothiiifi was said about it? A. — No. Q. — Did anyone oaue to see you abeut this case before the nmn who was thei-e eifjlif days ap)? \. — No. (i.— Had he any talk with y\as that I would like to }j;et some moiie.v of I Ilia. (J.— You said that to Meclitrr. A.— N. (i. — Who (lid yon s ly it to. then? \. — It niiulil have been Munsie. There wire two or three present at the time, (i.- What two or three? .\. — Cariie and Munsie. (.Iniiu's MniifitT — CrosK.) (i. — Wiis i( ill llio bill- room? A.— I don't know wlu'tlu'i' it Wiis ill tlic hill" room or not. it wiis ten ywirs ii^o. (^. — t'jiriu", Miiiisic iiiul Ufclitt'i were IIiimv? A. — No, I don't tliinii IJcclitfl wiis tlicro. Q. — It is ii little bit Imi^or tliiin ten yciirs, it is nt'iirl.v flcvfii vciirs'/ A. — Soiiifwlicro about tliiit. Q. — Your iitlcntion wiis never ciilied to tlie niiiller except vou siiid .von would like to ^I't soiii(> money out of it — is tliiit '" lifilif? A.— At tliiit time 1 siiid lh;it. g.— Wliiit time? A.— AbonI ten years a};o. Q. — Then yon have not liiid your attention ciilled to tlu' iiiiitter, or to iiiiy of the details of it for about ten or eleven veiirs? A.— Thiit is rij^lit ; he said i* would be settled some day. Q.— Who Siiid that? A.— Miinsie. {]. — Wiis IJeehtel present? A. — lie niifjhl liavt; been Tint 1 Wiis not talking to lii^t iboiit it. 20 Q. — Vou iire very posii ive (Jiat Ueehtel Wiis not tiilkinj; to .Mniisii' iiboiit it? A. — Xo. sir. iy — Yon did not heiir tlnit Heehtel was eliiimed to liiive iM'cn piirt owner with Miinsie in the "('iirolenn?" .\. — 1 never lieiird tliiit. Q. — Von nevi'r liciird tlnit since the seizure of the "Caro- leiiii? \. — No, I never heiird it. t^. — You never heai-d of anv intiiuiition to tluit elTect? A.— No. ly — .\nd y(ni did not know until you ciime here, iiiul you 30 have not heard it yet? A.— No. (i. — Never? A. — Never lieiird il. (i.— Did yon know tliiit Mechtel liiid iiiiy inortRiijie on the "Caroleiiii?" .\. — No, 1 never hi iiril that. (i.— ^'oii did not know thiit your brother iiihiw had ti moit >;ii};e? A. — I nevei- heiird of it. I did not know, iioi" do not know. iy — Nor iiny interest in her? A. — No. (i. — Vou never had the slifihtest ideii thiit Ueehtel hiid the ,,) slifjlitest interest in the "Ciiioleiia?" .\. — No. Q. — Or in her voyii^c? .\. — No. (i. — Your attention never hiiviiifj; been ciiUed to it before, what iiiiikes yon j'l'inembei' that there wiis iiny report iiboiil ip'e provisions on the "Ciii'olena" just before she wils seized? V( I remember tliiil? .\. I remember that they said tliiil I hey wanted to \io home iiboiit the end of the montli on iic count of the weatlier, iind (hiil the vessel was not iiny too l)i},'. and they siiid they would no home on iiciouiit of the weiillier. ill Q- — About the end of the nioiith? .\. — Yes. (i. — Vou remember that convi-siition? .\. — The captain Inid nie Ihiit. (i. -'ren or eleven years iijjo the mailer of meat ioaiiij; I lie IH'oviNions wiiK not a ])iirli(ul!irlv innHirlaiil matter to vou? A.— No. Q. — You hill] no fear Ihil the provisions wei'e short? A. — I know that there wiis ii whole lot of provisions. -et around on iiccount of (liein. ''" iy — She Wiis so full of ]>rovisions that voii could not ncl iironnd? A. — \r>t. (^ — The provisions were piled up on every side when you went into the liold? .\.— Ves. (y — There were p:reat (|niiiitities of pilot bread iind biirri'ls of pork and biiirels of siip;ar -e\eiythinir included in the provisions? A. — liits of food. (i- -So thiit you were niitnriilly imiiressed when yon heiird last Saturday iliat lliere wiis ii rumor thai it had been testi (.Tniiu'8 Mil ,i}?«'r — Ciosk.) fii'd lo ihiil tli«'3' wt'iv short jf ])n)\ isions, au«l .your niintl ri' vi'itt'd to ten or clcvou year i a}?o wliou you wi-re on the Hliiii. and you rt'nu'UiluTod Ihaf thcro was no tonvi'i-sation al)oui that? A. — No converMatiiM about tbt- provisions bcinfj; short. y. — Did you ever hi-ai an.\ thing said about the provisions bciuj^ abundant? A.— When lliey started otit? Q. — No, wlien ilie» were in the Sea? A. — Well, no; t litre lo was always lots; ' always had lots to eat. ti. — You neve- heard anything at all about there being lots of provisions <,n board A. — No, 1 knew that there were lots of provisions. Q. — At this time when you were in I5eiiriiig Sea, when tlu'i'e was a n'luark about the provisions being siioii, did you ever hear about the provisions being abundant? A. — Tlie matter never earne up. Q. — I*o you remember any otlu'r conversation held on any other subject within a week before you were seized? \.-- 20 About going home, yes. Q. — That is all you heard? A. — Yes, about going home at the end of the month on account of the weatlier. Q. — Who did you liear talking about that? A. — Caplain Ogilvie. (I. — Did you hear any of the crew speak about that besides the captain? A. — The mate. Q. — Did any of tlie men — hunters oi' steerers — spealc of i(? A. — My liunter talked of it to me. Q. — You remend)er that — you reniembei' that your panic 30 ular liunter talked to you about uoing liome? A. — Y>> Q. — What did he say? A. — lie said that tlie vcsmI \\i\f not any too big, and tliat we had better start home abo.t' ilic end of the month Q. — Will you swear whether they said "about the end of the month" or •JDth August?" .\.— No. Q. — You could not say which? \. — No; not as to iIh date. Q. — It might have been that they said that they were going about the 2t)th? A.— I do not know. 40 Q. — Where weie you when the provisions were taken oil the "Caroleiia" to go on board tli<' St. Paul?" A.— I w;is on the dock. Q.— Where was tlte "Oarolena?" A.— She was laying olV a few hundred yards. Q. — And you had come ashore about how long before tiial' A. — dust before she sailed. Q._Just before the "SI. I'aul' sailed you liad been on board the "t^aroiena?" A. — \'es. Q.— You had gone ashore from the "Caroleiia" just before 5° the "St. Taul" sailed'.' .\.— Yes. Q. — Do you remember tliat dale? A. — No. Q. — Who tool: tlios," provisions olT the "l.'arolena?" \ — I do not kiK'rt Q._You did not hein anv one say anything about it? A.— The bovs said I hey put some gruli on Soard. (^._i)i,l you see pilot bread brouglit on board the "SI. I'aul?" A.— I do not think so. I might not have seen it going on board , Q.— You did not know liie old iiih.l bread of the "("aroleiia when you saw it cm board the "SI. Paul"? A.— 1 did noi know that it was the s;mn', but it was there all right. (^.--Yoii do not know that it was llic same pilot lircao you know about it in any otiier wii.* e.xeept vliat you have lieard? .\. — I know it beeause I eat soiu' of tht; crackers. ii. — Did you reeofjnize the eiiukers? A. — I do not aiow. -" (.) — Did yon reeofjnize the pilot bread of the "Carole.ia" on lioard the "St. raiil"? A. — I Ihoujifht it was the same pilot bread. ii. — iiad you eaten of that pilot bread on the ship? A. — 'lis. we eat it. some of it. il. — And y.'ni would eat it in your boats fre;iii/e anytliintr else on I lie "St. I'.Mil" that came from tlie "Carolena"? A. — No. only from I lie cook house. (2. — What did you rcco^niizel fmiii the cook house? A. — Meat of siuiie kind. (2. — Did voii recoj-ni/i' this as coniinn from tht "Caiidena"? A— No. (2. — There is nothing;- else tiiiil you reeo}fni/.ed exce|»t the ;o liisle of the pilot bread? .\. — That is all. (2- — Were you on the "Carolena" wiieii the I'nited States otliici' came nn board? A. — Yes. (2- — Did he take any inventory then? A. — No. <2. — Were voii tlu'ie when lie did take an inventory? A, — Nn. <2. — ^'oll did not see him fjoing aluHit takinii the inventory III' the larjie amount of provisions tU-M you saw in the hold ol llic "Ciirolena"? A. —No. (>. — Von (lid not st c him piin;: into the hold? .\. — \o, iiii (2- — ^^'ill ^"n lell us, Mr. Muiifier. how lon>; after you jjot into (»iiniil;iska did you leave on the "SI. I'aul"? .\. — .Vboiit M week I think. <2- And vou slaved on llie "(^arolcna" all that lime? .\.— No. <2. Had \oii been ashm-e? .\. — Yes. ().- Hack' and forlli? .\. -Yes, out tlsliiiifr. <.). Did you see ;iiiy ofllcrr of th- revenue culler -'Rnsh" Illinium on bomil wlnn \ou weic at Diinalaska? .\. — No. .iliitljdjii; 63S (fliinu'H M\ni(|i'r — CrosH.) Q. — \Vli«'ii .von were weizcd did you turn tho oflRcer come on boiird? A. — Vi'8, sir. Q. — You Huw no Tnited Stales revenue offleer .all Uie time yon were on the "Carolena?" A. — 1 saw him when we were seized. (i. — You siiw no ofticer from that tim<' unti 1 .you went ashore at Ounalaska? A. — No, I was out tisliiufj. {}.- — You did not go out tishing before vou went ashore from tlie "Carolena"? A. — No. (.i. — From the tinu' of the seizure until .vou went asliore at Ounalaska you were on tlie ''r'ai'olena," and vou say that you did not see an oflicer takintj a list of tlie thinf;s and ttoiuf; ahoiit the ship? A. — Thei'e was an officer on board, bi't i did not see him make n list. il. — You did not see him f^oinj; around takiufj the inven tory? .\. — I do not remember that. (.}. — Will you swear that lie did not? A. — \o. 20 Q. — NYlien you went up to ('layo(]Uot your brother-iniaw lU'chtel was on board? A. — Yes. Q. — You rowed up with him, did not you? A. — Yes. (i. — And this is the first time vou had ever been to sea? A.— Yes. Q.— \Yere yon ill? A.— No. (i.— You were n<»t siek? A. — Not up to riay0()uot I was not. Q. — ^Vas your brother in-law siek? .\. — I believe lie was. Q. — He is your brolher-inlaw; dct not you know whetlK'r 3^ he was siek or not ? A. — They said he was siek. y.— I>id you se«> him on the voya},'e? A. — Yes. Q. — lie was about, wasn't he? A. — No. Q— ^Vllere was he? .\.— In the cabin, I think. Q.— How lonj; was he in the cabin? A.— I'ntil he Rot down there. Q.— And you did not see him all the way up altlutugh he is 3-our brother-in-law? A. — Yes. Q. — Yo u did not have anytliinjj; to do on the voyage up to ('layo(|iiot, you were no( a seaman were you? A.^Yes. Q.— I Ihoujiht you were sleerer for a "sealing boat? A.— There were only four m<'n and we had to takea shift all the time. Q. — When you were oil' tiie shift did not you ro in to see your poor brotln r-in law wiwi was siek? \. — Yes. Q. — When y(ni },'ot to t'layo(|ii()l. how loiij; after you pX there did you go ashore? A. — On the same day. Q. — -\nd vou swear, do vou, that the canoes were on llie bank then? .\.— Yes. (i- — The sami' fiuir cano<'S that aflerwards came on the "("aroleiia?" .\. — I did niH mark tiie!ii. I do not know altoul that. i-i. — Never mind :;iaiking — yon were doiiij;' seamen's work. !Md vou help to load lliesi- canoes on the "Carolena".'" .\. — No. ' Q. — \\'here were you? A. — I was ave Hiissell. (i. — Do you swear that these were the canoes you saw on the liaiilc when lirst you icot tlicre? .\.— ^'es. (i. — ^■ou sweai' tlial tile III noes that came on board were the same? .\,- \'e.-<, by tile time I had got on shore tiie.v had started to rilt them. Q. — Ami thev wei'i' the saiiu' ones as were put on board? A.— Yes. Q.— .\nd yon swear you went ashore the (irsi <1ay you ar lived aiKl saw liiese canoes? A. — Yes. 40 SO rx) 10 f^39 (Jiiiiics Mimi^ci' — (U'oNK.) Q. — Did you notice what b'H'amu of Cotfiford? Did lio go aslior*' witli y(!M? A. — I think he was out trying guns to 8«'e liow they would shoot. , Q. — Did Cotsford go asliore witli you? A. — 1 do not know if ill' went in tlio same boat or not. Q.— Did he st.iy asliore tliat day? A.— I do not know tliat. <.}. — Did he lia\e anything to do with tlxing tlie rilm? A. — No. Q.— Did IJeehlel? A.— No. vj. — IJec'litel l.iad notliing to do witli fixing tlie ribs? No. A. - A. 23 4-^ Q. — .\nd Ueclitel never talked to von about this cas*;? —No. (J.— Never? A.— No. Q. — Have you talked to them within the last eight days? A. — I have talked to him, but not about the case though. Q. — You have talked with him? A. — Yes. Q. — .\nd nevvT a word about the case or your business liere? A. — I told him I was over on account of the case. Q.— .\nd he did not give you the si art ling news that it was said that lie was i)arl owner of the "Oarolena?" A.— No. Q. — .\nd you had ni>t seen him in about three, or four, years? .\. — About three years. Q. — TTe never mentioned to you that it was claimed that iu> was one of Hie owners of tlie "Carolena" that you sailed off on? A.— No. Q. — Now did you see where Rechtel went when he went off 30 at <"layo(iuot? You say he went away. A. — I did not see him going. (I. — Wliat did he go in? A. — I do not know that. Q. — Did you not even give your brother-in-law good-bve? A.— No. Q. — Did you know he was going? A. — No. Q. — .\nd he never mentioned to you where he was going? A.— No. Q. — .And you went off on tliis triji of the "Pavolena" with- out knowing wiuit became of Ileclilel? .\.— Tlie only thing was I lieard th"iii say where he went to; I did not know it and he did not (ell me. Q.— And yon bad no talk with liim about it. Did Cotsford work at steiimiiig iliese ribs? .\.— Ed. Shiels was the name. Q.—Do you know anything about a man named Indian •limmy? .V. — I do not know anything about liim. Q.— You went down to San Francisco on the ''St. Paul?" .\.— Yes. (J.— Wlio iiaid yon fare? A.— I do not know that. Q.— .\iid you stayed in San Francisco for 10 days? .\.— Yes. Q._Who i«iid your hotel bill there? .V.-Mr. Muiisie. Q.— TTe was not there. T suii]tose? .\.— No. Q._\Vho imid your fare back? .\.— >rr. Aliiiisic Q.— T>id li<> also pay you your wages? .\. — No. Q. — TTe never paid von voiir wages? A. — No. Q._Suiv? A.— Sure. Q. — .\nd von never got a I'ent for your wtn-k on (lie 'M'nro- l.iia?" A.'— No. Q.- Who did you say paid your fare up from San T>an not paid yowv wagos uor youi- lay for tlu> voyage ; A.— No. 20 Q. — Aud that lottcr that has beon spoken of, you did not get it until you reached here? A. — No. Q. — Have you got (he envelope? A. — No. Q. — Wiiere is it? A. — 1 tore it in pieces, and threw it down near the witness box some place. (J. — I want to have a look at that envelope? A. — It was all tore, and I tore it in ])ieces, md I threw it down here. Q. — That letter was from M'.n'sie. was it? A. — Yes, from Munsie. Q. — Can yon tell us who the man was that saw you eight days ago? A. — Yes. Q. — What is his name? A. — Wait a, moment. Q. — Come now, von know his nann'. What is it? A.-- It is a pretty han name, and 1 am ]toor at names. His name was (Chandler, or sonu'thing like that. Redirect examination by Mr. Kodwell: Q. — Why do you say, Mr. Munger. that the piU)t bread tast- ed better (m the "St. I'anl" than on the "Carolena?" A.— Because we were hungry. Q.— Did you not get fo()d on the "St. Paul?" A.— No. (i. — How did \ou get along. What did you do? A. — The first we did not get anything, and then a man named Kd. Shiels got into tlie kitchen — he was a kind of butcher, and helped the cook in there and passed out sonu'thing to eat. Mr. Dickinson. — Is this i)roper redirect examination? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — That is one of the dilliculties of a witness dropping something in answer that is not asked about. I'lii^ lO 00 He-examinati'jn by Mr. Hod'vell (continued:) Q. — How long did it take you to go uj> from Victoria to Clayottuot? A. — I do not know. t). — You do not renu'iuber? A. — \o, aliout two or three days probably. Q.— Do you know what condition of liealtli Mr. Rechtel was in, geneially, af)out the time lie took this journey? A. — Not just before that, 1 dii not know. Q. — You said you were not sick until you reached Clyo- (juot. You nu'an yon were not seasick? A. — I was not sea- sick. Q. — It is a very short journey? \. — Yes. Q. — Do I uiulerstand you to say that you never lieard Mi'. Bechtel say atiytliing about the "Carolena" or the hunters in her? A. — N'o. .Mr. ISodwcll: — The next (ineslion that I propo.^^e to ask the witness is in cousciiueiice of sonielhiiig tlial dropjied from him in liis exaniinaliiui. 1 shall siibniil this evidence, and give the authority for it if there is a dispute. (To witness.) Q. — Did you hej:r Mr Beditel say anything (ui that jour ney as to the purpose of the journr'V? Mr. Dickinson: — To that we object. Mr. Hodwell: -I have the authority for that if there is any dispute about i(. "When any evidence is given ns to a jut- son being on a iouriiey. or doing any act. anything wlii''h at the time which is dei'iaratory of the pur|iose of the journey, oi' the object of it, is not hearsay; it is admitted as pari of the lo 20 10 641 (JaiiH'8 Munni'i — Ki'-diit'ct. Muliat-I S«'riiult— Din-ct.) K'N p'stiic and is (^pivswd in Uu' cliaractcr of tlu> act. Tliuf w laid down in Kohi-oc's NiHi IMius and tii-e«'nlcaf on Kvidcnec." Mr. Diclvinson: — I'ndcr ct'i'lain •onditionH and for certain purposes tliat is (rue. hut it is not true wtien botli wItneHSOS have heen calhd on llu- same side, and wiu'n tlie jiaity wliosu motives and purposes are best known to liiniself, is within call. Mr. Uodwell: — Thar, your Ifoniuirs, I suhmit, is not a test, liecanse so loufj as evidence is admissilde on an.v pround the exact form or order in which that eviden<'e will l»e adduced must he left io the jiei'son wlio is conducting the case. Tlia only duty to the Court is to produce admissil)le evidence, and tlie duty of the court is to receive jt. If he produces it in liad order, that, of course, is » matter for the court to decide iihout. The test is "Is it evidence or not?" and not whether it is the best evidence lie can {jet. The Commissioner on behalf of the I'nited States:— Limit your (|uestion to what he said on hoard tlie vessel as qualify- irj; his purpose. lie direct examination continued by Mr. Itodwell: Q._l)id you hear Mr. lU'chtel say anythiii}; while on the voyage? Wait until I get to the end of my ((uestion. Did you hear him s.iy anything during the C()urse of the journey which indicated the character of it? This closed tlie examination of tlio witness. "f^WH ^^ I Ifi: 40 Michael M. Sennilt was called as a witness on the part of (ireat Itnlain and duly swoiii. Tiie tcstiiuony of this wit iiessis otfered in rebuttal in the "Caruhna" case. Direct examination by Mr. I'.odwell: (i.— You at present live al .Mix rni? .\.— Yes, sir. t^.— When did yoii come to N'icloria? .\. — In ISttS. (i.—I mean lati-ly? .\.— -I.a.st .MoiKlay aflcnioon. iy — What was the occasion of your coming Ihtc? .\. — I 5^ go! a telegram to come to N'ictoria. (». — From whom? .\.- T'eoiii .Mr. Miiu.^ie. Q. — Have you got that telegi'am? A. — Ye.s. sir. (2. — N'oii have it willi you? .\. — 'N'cs. sir. (i. — This is the tclegtam you received: "l-'roui X'icloria to Mirluicj Serault, hotel proprietiu', .Mberiii. Vidoria. i;?lh !>(•(•., ISitt;. ■^'oti are wanted here by XYidiiesday's ti'ain re < '(iiiiniissioii. Time aiid exjiciisrs allowed. ,\nswei'. Wil- li:iiii Miinsie." .\ . — Thai is the (elegiani. (i. — III ISStl yon were storekeeper for Warren at Clayo oiiot? .\. — Yes. Q. — Living there? .\. — Yes. (i.—Did you see tli. "Caroleiia" there that year? .\.— She <"iine there in ISSt!. bii, what tii0 |l , ■'■ Wl 'ljlll,„l. 642 (Mifluu'l Sfiimll — Direct.) (i — Can .V(»ii tell iis anvtliiiift altoiH IiIh inovt'incntM lliat vt'ar. IM8(I? A. — Well, hv used to go oiU stt'ci-iug for flic lu- tliiiiis. (i. — Aiiylliiiij; with reference to the "<'aroleiia"? A. — No, not i\» I know of. (i. — lUt von know of liis niakin;; a trip on tlie "Carolena" that vear? .\. — lie ca?ne to Vlcloiia with four or five other 10 Indiiins. ii. — How r on the iinrt of Hie riiited Stales: — Why do not you ask I In- (pieslion, Mr. I'elers, whether canoes of thnt class ever sold for fll? .Mr. Peters: — We will do so. Hirect examination by .Mi'. I'odwell continued: ^ Q. — Could you buy one of these canoes for f 1 1 ? A. — No. The Commissioner on Hie pari of Her .Majesty :— Did such kind of canoes ever sell for any price like |!H? A.— No, sir. '-i.— !)u ><;••! know what price iliey did sell for? .\. — 1 do not know what he paid f(U' tlieni. Q. — Could you mention any instance in which canoes of lliai kind were boughl al thai price? .\. — No. l||i|, l:l 10 20 644 (Micha -I StMimll — IHimtI — rioNN.) t^. — Wluil (li tell you why lie was there and where lie was fioin^' ,•> A.— Yes. (2.— What did he tell you? .Ml". Di(kins(ui: — I object to this. The ('(uiimissioner on the part of ller Majesty: — On the 30 wliole we think Mr. ISotlwell may ask this <|uestiVere there some other Indians? A. — Yes, sir. i]. — Tlu-y w«'nt up there tlrst and hefore the canoes were put on hoard, anci went sealing; in the sjtrin^. in February, on the coast ? A. — Yes. Q. — How many Indians did they take on that trijt? A. — I don't know. il. — Did you see any Indians? A. — Oh, certainly. (2.— They weni on itoard tiie "rarolena?" A.— <'ertainly. i}. — They went otf on llie trip? A. — Yes. (2. — Ami they went u|) the coast sealinfj? A. — Ves. ?° Q. — And they came back? .\. — Yes. (i. — And they stopped where? .\. — Stopjied at their place, their home. (J. — How many Indians went on that trip, the tirst trip, when they went sealintr on tlie coast? A. — That I don't know. I think it was six or eijibt canoes the "Carolena" car- ried. iy — They carried six or eifjlil canoes on their first trip? A, — I don't remember liow many she took. 60 *-i- — '^"f ""'^' '"'"'^ canoes on their first trip in the spring'' A.— Ve.s. Q. — An ^. 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WltSTM.N.Y. MSM (71*) •72-4303 ^m^ " ;\ X TTTT- lO 20 30 .r 40 l|lM(l: (l:| 50 60 646 (MirliiU'l Hcniult — < 'i-ohh.) off wKli the <'.\<-«>|>liuu of liidiun Jiiniiiy? A. — Tlit-y run in .>in«l out all till' time. Q.— Did tli«7 It'jive the Indians off pxrcpt Indiuu Jimmy? A.— Wli^- no. tlu'iv wcri' tinvi' oHmth, I think. Q.— Did thi'y tuli*' thfm all to Victoria? A. — YeH, Hir. (). — How do you Icnow that Indian Jimmy camu to Vittoriu* A. — ItcrauHi' he nuiiL' to my place. (i.— Did thf other Indunm come to Victoria? A.— Well, when they Ht<>|)ped Healing off the coast they came aHliore. (i-— Wan Indian Jimmy on lliat trip? A. — I could not tell yon th:it i) —How do you know he went to Victoria? A. — lie got on hoard the "('aroh«na" for Victoria. Q. — They Vindy Jiili- my." (i. — How Ions; was she jjone on that trip up the c«»ast? A. — That is a hard tiling to answ<>r, because she is in and out all the time accoitlin;; !o the weather. Q. — What did they do with tlu' canoes when they started for Vi«'tt»ria? .\. — They landed them. (J. — Were these the same canoes they took? A. — No, I could not say that. Q. — Were these tlu' same canoes they took on tlu'ir sealiiif; trip that they afterwards pnt aboard and took to Victoria? A. — It would be hard for a man t<» swear to that. Q. — You do not know, do y«ni? .\. — No, I don't know. Q. — What be«ame of Hie canoes they brou^rlil back from their coast trip? A. — They landed them then'. Q._\Vh,it became of tlie"m afterwards? A.--I don't know. Q.— Now, you say that the lii fiu- f.'t.~i and I not one for f S5. (J.— What kind of a <"anoe was Hint fS."i canoe? A. — That was a lar^e canoe, carrii d about four tons. (J. — What was it made of? A. — It was mad*' of cedar. (i.— When did vou buy that? A.— I bought that in IHSr»— the fall of ISsr.. U);lit ill Mii.v, w< re llii-v? A. — Yen, 1 would uot Hwcar what tiiiii' that waH. H. — \V«M*«' thow fsr» ijiiKH-M? A. — Xo. Hir. y. — Wert* tht'.v fr>(» «-aiHM'H? A. — I raiinol ti-ll y*»» that. y.— Wen- thv.v worth fir>? A.— Tho.v w.'ii» worth— It all il<'|HMd<'et examination by Mr. Itodwell: y. — Yon wen- iiiidei: the doitorV eare at Mr. Mniisle'H liouHe? A. — Yen. and he would not aHow me out of tho lioiiHe at all. y.— What doelor? A.— Mr. Hall. y. — What were the eirriiniHtanreH iiiimedl!it(>ly preredlnn your illneHR and piiiiir to Mr. Miinsie'H hoiiHe? .\. — Well, ('apt. Rob<>rtH wan hunting for me and I went on iHiard the iKtat tii-Ht, and then I eanie up town — Mr. Itodwell: — t'oiiimenee with your arrival in Vietoria. WitiiettM: — I eaiiie to Vietoria and I had Home liineli, and ^'^ afterwardH I went to hii' wh«'n the boat sailed for Alberni — Mr. IMekinHon: — An* we f;oin^ to have sill this? Mr. HiHlwell:— The ditlleully Ih that a part of tiiiM tiling it* already on the reeord and eolour ItaH been };iv<-i) to thoHe rir- (UiiiHtaiieeH whieh ar«* not exaetly eorii-et. Kiihei- that Hhould go out of the reeord or a full explanaiioi sliouli ap|H'ar. Mr. I'etert*: — I made the HUKK^>Ktion that all that matter 4*^ Hhould );o out of thin reeord, I do not think it on^'ht to be in the iH'eord at all. The ('ommiHHioner on the part of Her Maj'^nty: — In it print- ed in the forms? Mr. Peters: — Yes. and it ban a teiideiiey t.< hIiow that this witness is not a eredible witness. .Mr. HirkinHon:— We withdraw tin- objeetion if our fiiends -o want it for thin i-easoii. providttl they will spare us the eakin); w^th tills man and he rame out and after that he asked me to go up to his r(Miin, and I went up to his room. H. — And he had that conversation with yon there? A. — Yes. H. — lUil anybody else eonie In? A.— I beliove ♦'•ere was, but I did not mind who it was. m' fll i 1 ■ ■ t ll|M,i lO 20 30 40 50 Go 648 (MirliiH'l H«-niult— U.'(liiv«t— U«>-eroH8.) ii. — Woiihl .voii kii«»w hl» niiiiH' if you hi'iird H? A. — I (loii'l know. y. — WiiH lie iiitrodiiet'd to ,von? A. — Y«'h. (). — WllH IliH IlilllK- ItOwlllIHl? A. — I fOllId not toll .VOII. I don't n-nK'nilHT the nain<>. Q.— TIm'J talk«'d ><» .voii about tin* "('ar«)lenn" eaw and wliat ywi know about tin- ciuum'h, did tlu-y not? A. — Thoy nBkcd me wliat 1 canii' hero for and I told tlioni I did not know, I was Hont for, and llioy aiskod nio what I could buy canocH for. Q.— How lonj; did the convursation last? A.— Not vory lODR'. Q.— IIow did it brwik up? A.— I had to go down and find out about the Hloamcr to the office. Q. — Did you me them again? A. — I bw them, but I don't ndud exactly what time it wau. Q. — Did you have anything to driuk? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you have anything In'fore you went up to thi» rown canoen. is It not? A.— Y»'s, sir. (J.— And these Indians on the "(\irolena" in that spring t«M>k their canoes? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And when their sealing was over their canoes were lande<]? A.— Certainly. Q. — nut these canoes were landed for tlM> purpose of tak ing white hunters out? A. — Yes. sir. Ue-crosscxandnation by Mr. Dickins«iu: (2. — You knew (Japt. McLean up the coast, did you no(? He had a trading post there? A. — 1 never knew he had a trading iHist. H. — You frequently saw him there and were jiersonally acquainted with him? A. — Yes, sir. ij. — You bolli knew each oilier and stayed at (he same liu tel? A. — I just had my lunch there. (i. — You were at (he Queen's Hotel, and did you not have a room? A. — No. il. — So you went into C'apt. McLean's room did vou? A.- \o. Q. — What room was i(? \. — I went into his (). — You went into ('apt. Mcl^ean's room on his invitation? .\. — Yes, iMTtainly. (j.— Did you (ell ('ap(. McLean on (hat occasiim that those canoes were worth alM)u( flo that were put on board (he "(;ar«»Tena '/" .\. — Tha( is a hard cfuestion. Q.— Did yon tell (^apt. McU>an in his room at the hotel that A.- I'H were of tak lo 20 30 649 (Mirhnt'l HtTiiiilt — R«'(tohb.) (h«> cniiocH tliiit MiiiiHic buiit;lit llitTi! fur (lu* "(Janik'na" wero worth about flo apiece? A. — If I can Btate, I iniiHt certain- ly Hay no, b<'caii8e I tuh) liiiii in a tlitTerent way. Q. — Wliat did y«»ii tell him about the fl5 at this time wheu yttii were with '.'aptain McLean in hlH room? You had just met him? A. -Yes. Q. — Yoti had not had any drinkn had you? A. — Well, 1 won't Hay that. ii- — You had not litul any with t^ajtt. McL«*an, had you? A. — Yen, that wa.-t the iime we had two drinkn before we went up. Q. — You met him down Htairn in the hotel? .\. — Y«'h, nir. Q.— .\nd you nu»l him in the ottice of the hotel, did you? A. — No, in the bar room. II. — You wer<' in the bar room yourHclf were you to >»et n drink? .\. — 1 wan talkini; with an old frh'ud I happened to WH' th<'rp. Q. — Now. in the room upHtairH. did you Bay to Tnpt. Mc- Lean that the tanoefl ]Mit on board the "t^ircdenn" in May were worth about fl.^ apiece? A. — We spoke about can<»es you 8«'e Q. — l>id you t«ll McLean that? A. — I will haw to Bay no becauHc the way the converHation Q. — Just tell UB what you did Bay? \. — Tie aBked nie what canocB could be bou;;ht for and I told hlni canoeH could Ih> bought at moHt any ]nice, that Ib to nay, if they wanted to Hell. I have bouKht canoes, I said, from flO to |15. Q. — \Yere you H])eakinK then of the can(M'B that went on the 'Tarolena?" A.— It did not cover that way at all. Q. — Ib there anything else you want to say about that? A. We were talking; about the prices of «-anoeH and thiuKH like that. I had boupht very nuiny canoes one way end another. Q. — Tell US what you said an«l not what you have done. A. — I did n«)t mind saying that to him. that way. (J. — What did y«»u say about the can«M'8? A. — Well, I did not say that thoHe <-anoeH — I could not certainly have told them they wen fl.'i, I don't know the jtrice of tln'm. I Rot ■^^ two canoes myself nnd I paid fl"» for tlu'm. Q.— The same kind? A.— Smaller. ii. — How mu«'h smaller? A. — CouHiderably. Q. — How much HUialler? A. — Quite a bit HUiallor. Q. — How nuH'h? A. — I could not tell, it was not yester- day they were bout;hl. Q. — IMd you tell liim about buying a canoe for Capt. War- ren for fS? A.— I don't tliink it. not for fS. Q. — Did you tell him that you did buy a canoe of this same size for f'apt. Warren at the same tinu' tlu-se cano<>H wert; bought for the "Carolena?" A. — I could not have told him that, I don't tliink. Q. — You do not think ho, will you swear it, whether you did tell him you had bought a canoe of the same kind and the same size as these that went on the "Carolena" for fS? A. — I don't think I told him that. Q. — Hid y«»u buy a canoe for ('apt. Warren about the sunie time that these canoes were bought for the "Carolena'?" A. — No, lonjj before thiit. Q.— What did y»»u pay fm- it? .\.— I bought a canoe for myself big enouuii to hold two. Q. — Did you buy a canoe for Capt. Warren? A. — I sold it to Capt. Warren, I bought it for myself. Q.— .\nd big enongli f«M' two? A.— .Iijst for duck hunting. Q.— And that was the fS cancM' was it? .\.— No, I did not pay f8 for it. Q.— Wan the «"anoe an large as the canot'S that were bought for the "Carolena?" .\. — No. 50 60 1! « ( i i- ! 650 (MicliiH'l S«'riiiill— K«'-«linM-t. T. II. Mrowii— Dii-«*ct.) y.— IM«1 .voii H!i.v it wm i» <'iii»taiii McLi-iiii? A.— I doii'l think it. Q— Wht'iv were you born, witu«»8B? A.— I wiih born in Oregon. Q.— Are .von half hlowl? A.— I nni Ciinndian, my iKKiple aru from Montreal. 10 He-direet examination r(>Hnmed l>y Mr. Itodwell: Q. — I want to usli you one queMtion: Did you know Capt. M'-Lean when lie «!ame up and spoke to you in the liotel? A. —Not for a minute, not till he t«>ld me who he was; he hard- ly knew me; it had been yearn Hinee we haul met. Q.— He was not a |.artieular friend of yours ut that time? A. — We were pn'tty good friends at <»ne tinu'. Ke-eroHs-exaniination rcHumed by Mr. IMrkinson: 20 Q- — Vou knew eaeli other pretty well up on the coast? A. — I got ae(|uainted with him upon the coast. y. — Knew him pretty well up there? A. — Just friends like, only that. Q. — I would like to ask you jibout whether you are half In- dian? A. — N«» sir my iH'0])le were born in M 40 so 60 TTiomas U. lirown, was called as a witness on the part of Orent Hritnin, ,'is one of the six witnesses to be examined by the t.'ommissioncrs' direction, and was duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Bodwell- Q. — You'live in Victoria West, Mr. Ilrown? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Were you out senliug in 18851? A. — i was. the Heanon woh over ho fai aH you know? A. — Yes. nir, we had heard of s(>iKing going on •S*^' previ<»UH to that. Q. — Some tinu> previous to that, was it not? A. — Yes. sir I think the first intimation we heard of the s<>i7.ures — Q. — We will not go into these di'tails. You do not mean to nay that you «'ame out of Itehring 8ea Ix'eause you heard of the seizuri's, did you? A.— No. I would not say it wan that. Q. — Now, witness, commence witli ti'." Ist of August and tell us how many days yon lowere.l that month? A. — In the ^o nionth of AngnsI? Q. — Not when you took one seal, but when you lowered your boats for seals? .\.— The 1st. .^th. «th, 7th. Sth, nth. I»th. nth. 12th. t;»h. 14th. l.^ith. inth, 2nth. 21st and 2mh. Q. — On the 5th August you got but 12 seals; that Is so. Is it? A.— Y«'s, sir. Q.— And on the 10th you got 0? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— And on the 12th 12? A.— Y«'B. sir. and we took 1.25n skins in the season. 50 Q. — I show ycni a bd, which lie do«»s not know anything about, and to say whether or not his account Is the same as tlu> aci-ount in that book. The book s]M>aks for itself, and is already in fyQ for the purpose of reference. It will add to the information «»f the court to have liim show that the figures he has given are the sjime as the Ciilculation thei-e. because that is already then' and in the |H>ssesHion of th«' court. '*' Mr. Dickinson: — Does it make any diffewnee whether he makes the ('omparlson or noi? CroBH-examination by Mr. Wnrren continui'd: i"1 ! ' ;i '•li'linj' I I 30 (T. FI. Miown— CioHH.) Q. — Ih Unit <')i|tliiiti Mrl^'iin'H writing tttlMiwiiiK wilii*-HH iMMtk)? A. — I ruiild nut wi.v wlictlicr it in or ixit. Q. — llow iiiaii.\ int'ii in «'juli boat? A. — Tlirw. TIuto wimt tlir«-<> men in tlu* liiintinK boit, tw«> mm iin«l 11 liiintcr. ly — And tiM'.v \v«'H' wliilo .'inntt'iH? A. — While liiiiitt-i-s. (2. — And uwm! mniH? A. — Y«'h. ii. — Wlicn yon fjivt- tli** iK'rccntnjfOH of whIh tliiit were limt 10 Kliootin^ ,von do not in<-]ndt' tli«»H«> tlint \v«'r<> Hliot nt a ^icat distance, wonndcil and tlun jfot awn.v? A. — No. mi: (j. — Yon yoni-Helf do not talie nniny i-lianeeH; yon hIiohI wniIh at Hliort tliHtanee only? A. — Well, I tire a yood nian.v i-iindtMn Hliots. (j. — Out of KM) HealH tliat yini we, liow many of tliem do you »lioot at on an averajje? A. — Wliat iH that <|neRlinn7 Q. — II(»w many HealH do yon HhiNit at ;e. (j. — You Hee a fjreal many of tliem that ai'«' not in I'anp*? A. — Oh, yen, a iiH'U\ many of them that an> not in I'an^e. Q. — Loolt at tliiH afYithivit, Jli*. Hrown, and ti>li me whether that in a eopy of an aflidavit that you made iHhowiiiK witnens Vol. H of the American Ite-print, pa^e (tol? A. — (Kxamin injr) YeH. (^ — 1 read from paraKi-aph four (»f tliat ailidavit. and asl< if you made that Htatem<-nt : "I and other hunt<>rH make nure that we are clone enoa;;li to n Heal to make uh reaHonably certain of •;ettin}; it before we shoot at all." raruttraph o. "1 uhc both a nliot Kun and a rifle, bnt neidoni a ritte, and then only at travelling; nealn on a calm day, and a rifle Ih never uned except when n Heal in too far awjiy to shoot with a Hhot {;un. I didn't kill more than twelve with a rifle this year." I'ara^i'iiph <>. "I slioot at a Hlee]>in(; Heal when about i't yardn away, and most of the neals we net are Hlee|K'r8. There is no chance of a seal Hinkin^ befon- it is };ot, if only one is shot. Hut sometimes wlien two are to)reth«>r, and b(»tli aie shot, one may sink while we are afl<'r the other. Most of the seals I lost were lost in tlilH way." Parncraph 7. "I liavi e.cry year seen seals in schools both south of t'ape Flatte y and north alon^ the coast to the Fairweatlier (ironndn, but seals are very hard to i;et then; they seem to be on flu* look r>ut. and if one shot is fired J(ll 50 make away." Taratfraph 8. "I am sure tl.at I d(m't nhoot at one out of fifty seals that I see — probabix n»»t one out of a liundred," Q. — Are those your stntemeiits? A. — Yes, I nuess so. Q. — And they are true? A. — Yes. (j. — IMd you make this additional statement fcnind in para- graph U\ of that affidavit: "The older seals are harder to get than tlie young ones, and the fenniles aiv much harder to get tlian tlie males? Tlie older seals aif harder to gel 60 than the young ones." Did you make that statement? A. — I don't recollect anything about that statement at nil. Q. — Is that statement true, taking just this part of it: "The older seals are harder to get than tlie younger ones," leaving out al)out the females? .\. — No, I don't know as there is any differcnw that is true? A. — No. Q. — In the total catch of these vessels, and particnlnrly of 40 >}i ('W II. Ilniwii— CioHH.) your own, nixl if .voii know lliiit it Ih k<'I>*'>'<>II.v trut>, iir«> hciiIh of all Mizt'H iiicluH, aH far an I know. H. — ThfiT' «!•(' Honu' (ira.v pnpH Hliot I Nii|t]MiH('? A.— Y«'h. lu Q. — An«l HoniftinicH a ronHidcrahl*- niitiilM'r of tlu'ni? A. — VfH, I liav«> Hn>n quite a few tivny pupH Hluit. (i. — Tlie,v fivi NonielinieH KM) or l.'id of llieui in a voyap- in Itehrini; Hea, do tlie.v n«»l? A. — Well, no, I couldn't na.v that for Itehrin^ Sea. Q. — lneludin<; the epper eoant eateli and Itehrin^' Kea they nuuht nvt that many if tliey ean^ht ItH) on the whol«> tri]»? .V. — \V«'II, yeH. it would be altont KM), I hIiouM say. Q. — KM» pn|m out of every 1,(>0() in the catch from Victoria np to Helirin^ Sea and back, ineludiuK, of course, the rp]H>r 20 <'„iist catch; in that ri«hl? A.— Ych. Q. — Then about 10 p< r cent, of the total catch of the Heals are gray pupH, and Hpeakiiif; H]>eciflcially of thin upper coant catch and ItehriuK Sea? A. — Y«'H, an a rule. Q. — Are brown pupH included In the Hame way hh gray |>upH in the catch? A. — W«'ll. there is no diHtinction made in making the (>ntrieH. Q.— Are they included in the total amount? .\.— They would be included in the total, yen. ii. — .\h I understand it tiiere ar(> not any blaxtrn large, large, middling, med- ium, small, gray pups, brown pups and black pu|)s: is that so? A. — They make a memorandum of it all. The rommissjoner on the part of Iler Majesty: — I think possibly, with reference to what he said before, you conid not iiK-ludo black pups !n your question, because it is put as a 4° stat(>ment of what he said. (i.— Did you take any hair seals in IXW), can you tell by y«»ur bookH? A. — We dcni't enter them with the fur seal at nil; there might have been two or three shot. (j. — Y«»u took them in and ]Mit them in your vessel, how- ever? A. — Yes, we iniglil tak«' them aboard the vessel. Q. — What boat wen* yt>u on in ISUtt, Mr. Brown? A. — Thu ".Maggi*' Mac." ii. — How many boats did the "Maggie Mac" luive? .\.-- 50 She had tive r«>uular hunting boats, and a stern boat. ii. — What was the tonnage of the "Maggie Mac?" .\. — 71) t(niH. ii. — Have you the entries for the "Maggie .Mac" in that l)ook? A. — I have. (Witness produces the memorandum with reference to the ciitcli «»f the ".Maggi*' Mac" in Hehring Sea for the months of ,Iuly and August, 1890.) ii. — Referring to that book which yon hav»' produc<>d, Mr. lb-own, will you tell the (\)mmissioners how many seals the •jo "Maggie Mac" to(»k in H»'hring Sea in the month of July, lS!tO? A.— tfi/. ii. — And she had (ive boats and a stern boat? A. — Yes. Q.— And whit.« hunterH? .\.— White hunters (J.— Armed with guns? A.— Armed with gnus. Q.— Three men in a boat A.— With the exception of the stern boat. Q.— What dav did von tirsi lower in .Inly in ISJM)? A.— The 15th. ''*!''! Ill' 20 40 60 A.— I d«»irt A. — lltTc in 654 (T. il. Ui»wn— ("loHH— l^•(lim•t.) y.— Whiil wiiH Ihc fulfil of llif "MiikkIi' Mm" for AiiKiiHt of that >»'iir ill ItfliriiiK Kni? A.— «7S. Tliiit iiiiikt'H licr loin! inltli S45. Q. — Wlint wnH tin* tirnl yt-ar voii w«'iv in llic H«'ii, Mr. llr«»wn? A.— IKH8. i^.— Wlial lioal were vi n? A.— Tlic "MaKKi** Mar." t/. — Von liavf iMfii ill lln- Hni cvcrv .vear hJiicc lliat .vciir lliiil yon could p> ill? A. — Vch, I liavi' Ih>«'Ii tli«'r«' Hiiit't'. (i.— Von wi'i«' tln'i«' in IHsn and IsiJO, of «oiii-h»'? A.— I waH. (/. — lUi tlic HcalhiK CaitlaiiiM piin-liam' NcalH on llu> IiouIh or iinywIuM'*' i'Ihi' from tlit' liidiaiiH daring IIh'H«' vo^iiki'm? A. — No, not to iii,v kiiowlfdp'. (j. — \Vli<'r<> ai'(> tli(> NkiiiH bon^lit from tli)> IndiaiiH iMircluiH- «'d, hfvv in Viclnria, .»r wlirrt'? A. — In Victoria, I lliiiik. (j. — Do not llic vchhcIh wliicli Hlop in Aii};iiHt hiiy HkiiiH off tlic IndiaiiH? A. — No, Hir, not tliat I know of. (J. — l>o tlif.v hn.v liiiir hciiIh lien' in Victoria? know, I am Hiirc. Q. — TIm'.v wo'ild not do tliat, would tlu'.v? Victoria? " Q._Y«.8. A.— 1 really Couldn't tell yon. Q. — Von do not know of aiiv hiicIi |tractic(> an tliat, do you? A.— No. Q. — And if a larfji' nnnilM'r of hair hcuIk nr«> caught or re- ported each year, tlu'y niiiHt come fnmi otT tlie veHB«'lB; is that what yon think about it? A. — ^° Mr. I'etei-H: — That Im a mere t|UcHtioii of nrpiment. \. — Well, I know in my ex|icriciice in Healing;, we never hmiiKlit any hair walH here for xale. Ue direct exaniinaiion hy Mr. Itodwell: Q.— What kind of weather did yon have in 1H!M>? A.— The weather was nor very nood in ISJUK (j. — In IliiH aflldavit that yon have heeii tinked alHiut, I oeo that ill |(ara|;rapli three yon Hiate that y«iu have kept an a<-- 4-uuiit hook of tlu> number of HkiiiH yon loHt liy Hinkini;. Ih this your stalemcnt. "I have kept count eacli year of the number of wuIm I have kilhd. In \SH'.) I p>t .170, and hmt U*M8 than Hcven or eiKht. I am Hure there were Ichh than that number loBt by sinking, but will say eiifht, ho that I can safe- ly Hw«-ar to it. In tSOO I p»t '.\HH skinH, and bml Ity HinkinK 11' m(>:iIh. \A\Ht year I (loi X'A Hkinn, and loHt 1(1 by ttinkiiiK. ThiH year I ff»i .'US Mkins, and hint by Hinking seven Heals. I kejtt count of (lie number that sank, and know exactly. I S^ considi'r that no average hunter ought to lose more than I have lost." (i. — Do you keep account? \. — I do. (i.— Fs that correct with your acconnt? A.— That is cor- rect. Q. — Have yon got tlie acconnt now? A. — No. (i — Hut that was made at the time? .\. — Yt^t. (}. — Do yon p't many gray piijw in Iti'hring K»'a? A. — Not many. Q.— (>f what clnss is the Behring Sea catch «• Jinjwsed of? A — Well, as a rule they are a large seal. tj. — Do you remember yourself of ever g<>tting a gray pup in ISeliriiig Sea? A. — No, I can't reinember. Q.— The gray pups are caught on the coast, are tht'y? A. — .\s a rule, yes. Tlie ('uiniiiissioners then took recesH. lO 20 155 (T. II. HiHiwii— IU*(lh«it— UccioHH.) A( m'M) p.l'l. tilt* CuinilliHNioUCI'H |-fHIIIIIC«l llll'll- HCIltH. Kt'tliici-I txauiiuatiuu uf Ml*. Itiuwu c«iutiuiii>d Uy Mi-. Hod- well: Ij.— lliivc .vou found tlu' place in your lug MJiowihi: (lit' date on wliich y>\i Hrnt lu'ard «»f any NcizuiVH? A. — Y<'s, h\}'. (j— Xv'luit waH it? A.— (KxaiiiiHin(j() :::ti-d of AiikiimI. (J. — llavi' .vou any uolc of tlu- iiuinlu'r of wah yid you hunt tin- day bffoit ? A.— Tlii" -MhI. (2. — How many did you jfcl on Hi" 2l8t? A. — 'Jl. w lonj; did you Htay in tli«' Swi after tli;- :!:Jrd? A. — \\'*- eaiiK- out on the l!S,n. (i.— »»id you do any iiiou Healing? A. — We ouly «enled one day after tlial, the I'.'ilii. (i.— When' did you d«» that Htalinj; on tin' •J.'itli? A.— Tliat wuH eloNe to Hie I'iihn — Four .Mountain I'aHH. II. — Tile Meizure of wliat HeluMtiui-M did y«Mi hear? A. — On tliat day we Hpoke — (j. — Nev«'r iiiiiitl what you dirrinK to thin iiiemoraiidtim, from wliieh you re- freuhed your reeolleetioiiH aH to tlie date wiieii you 8|M)ke tht* m-hoouefH that informed you tliat oilier Hi-hooneiH iiad b«'en Meized, I will unk you if tliat in tlie log of the "Mary Klh-n"? ,\. — No, that ain't tlu- lo}(, that is my own pei'Hoiial journal tliat I kept of the trip, the state of the weather, th" number of HealH, and th" veHseItt we had spoken on that day (j. — I show yon the lo^ of tlie "Mary Klleii." Is that the loj{ of the "Mary Kllen" that I have in my haiidH? A. — (Ex- iiiiiinin^) I eouldn't Nay; i didn't Hee the loj;. I would nay 4^) that thlH is Captain MelA-an'ri writing. (^ — It HayH in thin iiienioraiidiim under date of the 2:trd of Au^'UHt, niiitm); oilier tliin^H, that tiie "Itlaek IMamond" li.id Hpokeii you, and reported that Hlie had H|N)ken the "Tiiei-cHa," who reported that Hlie had not been doin^; mneli Healing? .\. — She litid not Imh-ii doiii); miirli. Ij. — Now. this morning; you told me that you did not elaiiii you left the Kia in l.tsfj, becauHc you were warned eiit. The ('ommiHHioner on the part of the I'nited States: — He jo lij>** »*>( slated tliat on re-croHH-examination. Mr. Warren: — Tliese facts put in this c s«'as<»ii of IH'M). and ask the court for the ri^ht to interfere. This one witness has told about a catch the last day, the Uotli of AuKUst, IWMt. Do you then refer to the iiiemonindum wlii«-li you have of the "Ma}?)?'«' Mac" of the year ISOO, and tell tlie fomuiissioners lu»w many seals you look the 22nd day of Aunust. 1S!K>? A.— This is the latter part of .Vii^iist; w«' were down clos<' to the I'ass. The 22iid we took 4!»: the 2;{rd, H»7; 24tli. 11 ; 25111. :«; 27th, 4; 28th, .17; 2»th, 8; 30th, S). :i '] M: . 'I- r i !1 'l|i>i I lO 20 30 656 (T. II. lifowii— K«'-froHH — Uctlii-fft.) (j.— Tlif vcHM'l look lliiit? A.— Tliiit iH tlif totiil nitcli. Ij. — TluTf wciiiH to Ih- HOIII4* iiilHlakc in tli«' i-titrli yoii liiiv«> ftivt'ii fur IHjH), uiid till- iiifoniiatitiii wr liiivi* it'liitiv*- to tliiit. Will .vtiii jiiHt fcNtt up tlioM' tl);iii'*>H iin«l »•<' if thcif Ih not a iiiiHtal«- III III*' footing? A.— (roiii|iiiliiiKi Not n iniHlakf. Q. — How ili«l you K«'t tlit> iiifoniiatioii ii|)oii wliicli .voii put tlii'Mi' IlKui'fH in .vour hiMtk for an,v fUlt'li t'Xrt'pt your own? A. — From tlu' liuntcr fv«'r.v «la.v. Q. — And tlM'w <>n1ri«'H ar«' nui«l«> «'Vt'r.v da.v? A. — Tliom> cntrirM ar»' nuidf I'vi-r.v da.v. ij.— And thJH t>nlrv of tlit> L':trd of Auf;uNt, \HHU. how did you p>t I'nat fart that ,vou put down here? A. — I wuh on board of tl I.illii' I.." at lli«> tini<>. (j. — You w<>r<> aHk)'d wlu-tlu'r you had an *>ntry hi-rr of liic HkiuH on till* "Mlanif." II:ivi>you an cniry of tlw HkiuH on Hit- "hillif L." aT Tliat linn-? A.— Ych. (J.— What wan It? A.— .'MM). Mr. Ilodwt'll: — I dcHire to hav<> tla-m' hookH marked for idt>u- titiration. The t.'ommJHHituH'r on th*> part of llcr Majt-Hty: — I think it would In' ronipi'l«>nt for uh to ItMtk at them. |H-rluipH, to t'luri- dale Homf'thiuK in tlic tcHlimony. Ordinarily pa|M'rM ar<> mark- ed for idcntriii-ation so that they i-an Ih* aflerwardH lookt'd ut. The t'omniiHiiiom'r on the part of the I'nited StateH: — \\'< ou^ht to know wliether a hook Ih in tlie eane or not. Mr. Itodwell: — I would a8k to have them marked aH exhibitti if there Ih to Im> any doubt about them. iiH «>therwiHe it mitjht bo very awkward for us. The Commitwioner on the part of the United Rtateg: — Do you offer th«' bookH? Mr. Modwell: — Yen, your ITonour. l.otr book. Mi-liooner ".Ma^K>*' -Ma*-," Virloria, iveeived and ** mark«'«l Kxhibit "'2H va8 ul latitude 6-1, 55, and longi- tude lliti .41) on the ::i)th of AufiUHt. IMS!), will yuu tell the CommiMsionerH how far that would Ih' from Uniinak I'aHM. You went out of that paHH did you not? A. — No. we eame out of Four Mountain I'aHs. y. — How far is that from rniniak I'nss? A. — (Examining i-hart.) About 3t) miles: that in a rough euleulation, you know. K«'-direet examination roiitinuetl by Mr. ltodw«'ll: Q. — Was that good sealing ground there elooe to the pass? A.— Xo. 8ir. Q. — That is wliere you were? A. — Oh. I don't know about that {Htsition; we did not come out of Tniinak pass; we i>amu out of Four Mountain Pass; 1 remember distinctly wheu we came «)ut there. Q. — How do you remendn'r that you came out of Four Mountain Pass? A. — On account of this re«'f; the wind was from the southwest from the time, and the weather was quite dirty, tind the captain wiu- anxious to get out by this rtH'f be- fore dark. 5-J Co lO 20 30 657 (T. II. itrnwii— K«> ilincf. <'litir1iH lla«k<-)l— hin-tl.) Q.— Cun you lay (hat rii'f down 011 the cliart? (WKih-hh iiidk'att'H.) (^— It Ih tb<> I'ci'f -itr HainalKu iHlamI, Ih it not? A.— Vt-H. nir. Q. — Do yon n'in«>inlM>r Iiow Ume ,v«»ii were afti-r yoii );ot out of th«' puHH tN-fort' you i^ot to Hand I'oint ; do your lioitltH ttliow? A. — My iHtok would hIiow; (Iii> flrat of HcptonilH-r wi> arrivtil at Hand I'oint. Q. — What waH tho ordinary runniuK (inic 'roni Tninuik I'ara to RnmnlKn. Tho ConimlH.sionor on the part of the Unitod Hliiti'n:— Wlial iHtlitTt' in tiM' ('.\iunii>ati, hroii^lit oul of thiH witni>«*H that llir loratioii of tli«> nhip at a crrtiiin dal*' waH .'to niiifH north of rniniak INihh. The roniniiHHion<>r on i]u' ftart of the Fnitt d HtntoH:— Tliat waH only a Rinipio (vi''"Mon of how far mich a point by iati tude antl longitude irt rrom tlH> PaHH. Mr. Ilodwcll: — Thon I will UHk th<> witncHH tliiH ipH'Htion: Oivcn th«' |»oHition atioiit .tO niih'H noHh of Hiimal^a iHland, whi'ii' would it li" ly la(ilwd«> and l on tlic rluirl — on whnt meridian vi lonititudo would it Im>? A. — lOU. (^ — And it would b<> Ix'twoon n.'t :ind r>4 north latiludf? A. II would. Q. — And pretty nearlv 54? A. — No, it would bo nearer Kl. ('rofH-t'xaniinaiion by Mr. Warren: Q. — You cannot (ell by your iNiokM at >'.1iat hour on Hep- teuilH'r flrst you arrived at Hand I'oint? A. — No. Kir. it. — Whether i( wan niidni!;li( «»f Hep(enilM'r (lrK( or not? A. — No, 1 would not be (HtBitive. 40 Alexander Itepptn was railed an a witnefM «»n tiie part of Oreat Hritaiu, and beiuf; duly Mworu, wuh exauiiued by (uui- Heut of e«MinHel out of order, with reference to ciaiuia wliich will be tukeu ny hereafter. 50 60 (^'harles Haekett was called as a witness on the part of ( NunniisHiiuiers, and duly sworn. Direct exauiinntion by Mr. Iteiqiie: Mr. Heique: — This witness will be examined as to 1888 and IS'M). Q.— You were on the "Annie C. Moore" iu 1889? A.— Yes, sir. uh the daily eatcli, first on the coaHt, and then in Itehrin^ Sea, for ISHD? \. — Do you want me to tfo ov«'r the whole of it. sir? Q. — YeH. the dailv catch? .\. — February 7tb, 5 Heals; rttli, 2; 10th. 32; 11th, 7; 17tli. 2; ISth. 44; 21st", V*^; '-•'»«h, Ifi; that, iH to the end of February. March 4th. 2; nth. 4; 7th, 11 ; Stli, *)■, inth, 10; nth. 10; l.m. 11; ir.th, fi; Ififh. 10; 2lRt, fi; 22nd, 2; 24th, 23; 2.')th. 1.1; 2fith. 20; 27th. 2; 28th. 8; .'ilst. 23. .\nril 4(h. 4;flth. 12; 11th, k 3; loth, 12;2r.th. 2. i; i:Uh. .1; ir.th. 1; Ifith, Mav 7th, 20— 5; 17th. 4; 18tl. 40 Mr. LauHin;;: — I would like to know, Mr. n«'ique, the obje< t of the c«»a8t catch for 1889 going in; there is no claim for 't, is there, in any case? Mr. Ueitjue: — We ha.ye lost the season for 1887. the whole 3° season, tlie coast catch as well as the Behriug Sea catch. Mr. Lansing:— This is 1889. Mr. Heique: — The limit that is agi*eed upon is up (o iSOI. (To witness):— ; ISth, fi8; Ifith, 51; 18th, 1«; 'J.^lh. 4«; 27th. 5; 20th, 13; aotli, 12. June 2nd, 1 1 ; 4th, U; 10th, ;{ti; 21st, 8. (i. — Was that the whole of the coast <'atch? A. — The whole of the coast catch. Q. — ran you give the Itehring Sea catch for the same »• -ar? A.— .Tuly fith. 0«; 0th, 20; llth, 120; 12th, 38; 10th, fi5; '2211.1, 55; 25th, 78; 28rh, .->0; 20tli. r2; 301h, 170. Au^'ust iith. 77; fith, 152; 7th, 18; Mh. 20; Olh, 10; 10th, fi- 11th, 44; llth. 115: 15ih S>7; Ifith. 40; ii.tal. I,::ifi in Itehring Sea. (i. — How sooH after the Ifith did y«Hi leaye Itehring Sea? A. — I cam*' out of Itehring Sea on the 22nd of August. Q. — What kind of weatlier had you from the Ifith to the 22nd? .\. — It was not fayorable for sealing. Q. — I iM'lieye you sealed iu Itehring Sea in 1800 on the saiiif scJHMUier? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You were there a part of July and |>art of August? A. — Yes. sir. (}. — You renienilHM' what parts of each month you wen- there? .\. — I think I hare got that; I slartalinu on the llth of .\ugust. Q.— What kind of weather had you in 1800 in Itehring Sea? A. — The weatluT was pretty bad in 1800. Q. — How did it omipare with tlu' weather that you had in 1880, better or worse? A.— Well, in July. 188JK we sealed 10 days; in 1800 we sealed 11 days. Q.— And how did August, 1880, comi»are with Auguss 189ti» A. — Only four days. The ('omnii8sion«T on the part of 'ler Majesty:— How juau^- days did you have In August, 1880? A.— Eleyen, sir. 50 60 10 20 30 40 50 Oo 659 (CharU'H Ilackt'tl — CrosH.) CruBS-exuminiitiun b>- Mr. LaiiBiu^: (i. — When did you Htu|i tiealiu(j; iu IWIO, caittaiu? A. — ..U);u8t 11th. Q. — And tliat was about 10 days' earlii-r than you did iu 1889? A.— Yt'H. Q. — Did you stop s*-uling then on atri'onnt of bad Wfathor? A.— Yes. Q. — And .von slopped in ISH!) on .t lie same account? A. — No, I was afraid of seizure in 188!). Q. — When did .von first hear tliat seizures were bi'infj made in 1880? A.— Oh, 1 can't just exactly tell you when 1 first heard of it; I was always afraid of it from tlil« tinu* I t-ntered. Q. — There had nor b<'<'n any seizures made in 1888, had thert!? A. — 1 think there was; wasn't flu>re? I don't just rememlKM' but we have always been afraid of it, yo;i know from the start. Q. — From what vessels did you hear It? A. — 1 heard it from sev«'ral vessels in Itehrini; Bea. Q.— What veswls did you siH-ak? A.— Well, 1 didn't just remember now who they were. Q. — Can you name any captain that told you of a st'izure? A. — I rememlM'r one who told me he thought he saw a lM>af after him. Q. — Who wa.s it? A. — lie is dead now; |ierha]m it mifiht be as well not to mention it. It was Captain Dodd, of the "MapRie Mac. Q. — When was that? A. — That was about the first of An- RMSt. Q. — And you stayed in three weeks after that? A. — Yes. Q. — And then left for fear of seizure? A. — Yes. Q. — The weather had nothing to do with it? A. — No. Q. — When you sp<'ak of bad weather, I suppos*- you refer merely to just wliat you ex|M'rienc«'d in a certain locality, and not to the general weather fw the season? A.— When we have bad weatlu-r in llehriuK Sea it is generally all over. Q._The sjime kind of weather all over the Hea? A.— .\« a ruU' that has been mv ex|K>nence. Q.— You do not know what other vessels have »'xperieiiced? A.— No. Q.— I think you did not jfive fh«' total catch of seals that had been made in 18(»0. Wlial number vyas it? .\.— (>:;t Q.— In th<' Sea? A.— Yes. sir. Q.—IIow many boats did you have? .\.— Six boats and a stern boat. li.— How much of a crew? A.— Twenty three. Q.— And what is (h«' tonnajje t>f the "Annie C. Moor«'?" A. —One hundred : ad tliiHecn. Q.— Resist ered? A.— Yes. Q.— .\nd up to AuRHst the 11th, you pot tJ.>:i senls? A — Yes. Q.— Had von been senlinp before 188!>, captain? A.— In 1888. Q._\Vi,at vessel were yon in? A.— The "Annie (\ Moore ; Q._\V„8 she in HeliriuK Sea in ISSS? A.— Siie was. Q.— Did you have a larpe »>r small catch? A.— Small cattli. Didn't leave here nnlil (he "Jlst of .Line. Q.— What lime did you enier tlie S«a? A.— About tlie 2(Mh of .lulv. Q.—IIow lon« did you remain? A.— I'ntil about the 22nd of .\upust. I have pot no record of that. Q._\V1,.,( was vour total catch? A.— Somewhere near 800. Q.— Did that include the upper coast? .\.— No. I wasn't on the coast at all. m m 'J iiiii. II! 4>¥\ 660 (( 'luirlt'8 llarkt'tt— ( 'rosH— Kt'-dir«'ft.) Q. — And you luul flu' 8Hine outfit, six boats aud a Htt-ru boat and tlie same uuniboi* of crew? A. — Yos, sir. Q. — Were you afraid of svizuw that year? A.— No. Q — You left about the same date that you did in 1888? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On aceount of tlie weather? \. — No. Q. — <'loHe of the season? A.— I rhnupht I had Rot pretty ,Q near all I eouhl get, 1 had jjreen men for hunters, they never had btH^n at the biisiness before. Q.— That was your first years? A.— First year's exper- ienee. Q. — When yon say you left tlie Poa on the 22nd that doesn't mean that tlmt was the last day you lowered? A. — That was the day I came throup:h the pass. Q. — .\nd your last lowering day was how many days before that? A. — I couldn't tell that because I liave no n-cord. Q. — ^Vell, about? A. — Well, perhaps four or five days. 20 Q. — In 1880 how many days b»'fore you went out of tlie pass was your last lowering day? A. — About four days, I think. Q. — TTave voii anv book with the record of your catch in 1888? A.— No, I haven't. Q. — Did you iiave one? A. — Yes, 1 had one. Q. — Where is it? A. — I don't know: 1 lost it somewhere. Q. — ITow long ago did you lose it? A. — T couldn't tell 30U. I tried to find it; if I had it you could have it. Q. — Does every one of those days that you refer to as your daily catch in 1889 represent lowering days? \. — Ue|»rc- 30 sent lowering days. Rome days are belter than others; those are tlie days we lowered Q. — For instance, on July 27th you took three seals; is that a low«'ring dsn? .\. — I don't know, they might have Iteeii out just a little while and come back again; it mav have got bad. Q. — May have b«'en shot from the schooner? A. — No. Q. — On the 2f)th you took four; that may have been an hour? A.— Yes. Q. — So tliis does not show four lowering days? A. — Well, '' it may be they was just a little while out; no. it does not. Q. — Do you know, captain, who was the captain of the Muanita" in l^^itO? A.— T think it was Tlark. if 1 am not mistaken. I don't know. I wouldn't be too sure of it; I know lie was in here, but what shii* I eouldn't tell you. Q.— Ts lie d«'ad? A.— No. Q. — Ts he here in Victoria? .\. — 1 think so. Ke-din'ct examination by Mr. lieitpie: (J. — You liave been askid as to whetln'r you wer«' afraid 5 of Ix'ing seized in I8SS and you said "N^o.'' You ('(unmenced t<» give an explanation and were stopped. Why weren't of l»eiiig seized in I8SH and you said "No." You ct'uimenct'd and gave an ex)>lanation and were stopped. Why weren't you afraid of being seized? .\. — We had received instruc- lions from llie customs house here that we w«>ren't to be seized. ii. — You liave iM'cn aske<1 as to the "Maggi*' Mac." Do you know if llf^"Maggie Mac" was los(? .\. — Yes, sir. 60 Q.— In wliii< year was slie lost? A.— 18!»2 or 18<):i. (J. — Was (li(> captain and crew lost? .\. — She never has been heard tell of nor any of lu>r crew; some of the reconls, I hey say, had been ]iicked uji. i}. — Who was her cajitain? .\. — John Dodd. (}. — Had lie been captiiiii fm- several years? A. — Oh, yes. Q. — You have b'cn asked as to the weather in Mehring Sea, ami yon said tli.'it in your experience the weather was about the same all over Mehring Sea. I suppose you menn all over 66i lO 20 30 {< 'hiirlt'H IliitkHt — It«> from wImtc w<' Ht'iih-d, awtiy t-roHH to CopptT iHliiiulH, ill all. Tlu>ri' \h hoiiic (liiTi'ivncc in the wt'tith- ft' tht'i'p, hut HI tlu' Hlioi-t (>u Hi'izcd uud wuriii'tl? A. — 1 du not ri'«-«tll«>rt. I kitow (liiil 1 wtiH told at tbat Uni«> that i liad bclti'f lake uiiv as ht> had Hft>ii tlii' boat. U«> Huid hu had 8 and be ran away from it. Q.^Voii said .v«)U ran iu and out; no\' when* did yoii run to? A. — W'v not off tlu' |Nmition 20 or '.Ai niib'H. Q. — Furllu'r to tlu' wt-mwai'd of I'rilyioff? A. — Yos, sir. ii. — Tlu> warniugs and H(>i/,urt>8 v/viv priuciimlljr to tiic w«>Htward of tlu> l'rib,vb)tV? A. — I tliink tbc uiohI m^izurcM wt'ro doni' in l«uigitud<> ItiS and Hi!) and aloni; tbcro. ti. — In 1S! and IS!M», did .v«»u kot'p any 8«'parat»' arcount of tlu' kind of wuIh you totik? A. — No. sir. (j. — I t«up|)OH«> you took all 8ort8 of mcuIh tbat canio along? A. — Yi'8, sir. bring Sea. ii. — You g»»t Hoine? .\. — I do not know. 1 cannot 8a v I did. Q. — You got some snuill seals? A. — Very f«>w. y. — Mostly all wigw? A. — No. sir. Q. — Mostly all large? A. — No, just the average run, three and four and tive years old. y. — How ar«» tliey classified? A. — >Ve did not classify tbeni here at all. We did not have anvtbing to do with tbat. Q. — Vou mean the seab-rs did not classify Hum? A.— I don't tbink nnyon*> else in N'ictoria did that I know of. ( din. (J. — Yon know Ibar there are |>up8? \. — Yes. Q. — .\nil you know that they have different prii-es for them? A. — Tbey have some very large piips at tinu'8. too. Q — I understand. Mat vou know tbat there ar«' different prices according to the si/e of the seal? .\. — Yes. Q. — In your estimate of seals you j>ut them all in as so many seals? A. — Yes in the market. Redir«>ct examination by Mr. Keique. Q. — Did you ev«'r »'atcb any gray piipa in the IJebring Pea? -Q .\. — I cannot tell you that ever I did, sir. ' ii. — And if you did. it was only one or two, or onl ^•w? .\. — I would not noiii'c them. I would have to turn up the nmount of seals before I ciMild tell vou bow numv pu])8 I bad. if I bad any." (J. — It would be very few any way? A. — Yes, very few. Q. — Did vou sell nnv of the skins in nnv of thosp years? A.— Wbert'! Q. — In Victoria? A. — The first year I was sealing, I sold them in Victoria. 60 Q. — And what alwut the other years? A. — I never sold them since. Q. — Was there any difference made for the purposes of sale or for fixing the price between the wiga and the pups and the different sizes? A. — Here in Victoria? ii. — Yes. A. — Never tbat I know of. Q. — They were sold in n bulk? A.— That is the way I sold my own in the first place. Recross-examinntion bv Mr. Dickinnon. 40 663 (('liarlrH lliK-kvK. Victor .larohsi'ii — l>irt>«-(.) (i. — Vim Hold Uu'iii 8o iiiiiiiy hcuIm in a lot? A. — V«'h, kit, ill Vifforia. Q. — A job lol? A. — No, sir, not a job lot. Thoy Rive you MO much a Hkin for tliv lot. Q. — They looked tLi-iii over and yon barpiinod ho inucli for llie lot, bi|;, little and ull? .\. — Vvh, Hir, so inueli per Hkin for tli<> lot. ^ (i. — Tlu' tj'"<'y JMipH roiinti'd in that way? A. — Yen. nir. Q. — Ah a full skin? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Was tliat tln' law in 18«!i? A.— In ISS8, tlicy wi'ie and that is all I know about. Q.— You do not know anythinp about 1889? A.— No, I lu'vor sold any in 1889. Q. — And yon don't know anvthinp: about 1887? A. — No, sir. m !if 20 50 Victor JacobmMi was ri'-calU'd um a witiieHH on the (miiI of (iivat Itritain. IIIh t(>Htinioiiy wuh taken out of order by (nuiHeiit of coiiiiHel. Direct exaiuinutiou by Mr. Itodwell: Q.— You were in the Uehrlug Seu in 1888? A.— YeH, sir. (i. — In wiiat Hchooner? A. — The "Mountain <31iief." (i. — How iiiaiiy boats did you have? A. — There were five canoes and I had also one. il. — When did you g«'t into the Kea? A. — About the ttrst part of AugUHt. Q. — You had Indian hunters? A. — Yes. Q. — And you stayed until when? A. — Until the llrst part of ,y September. Q. — liow was it that you were so late in {getting in? A. — Oil account of the seiziircK in 1887,we could not get any In- dian hunters to go up to the Sea. I had to get a guarantee fi'oiii the Ciistini House that there would be no seizure. The Indians were in Nictoria from the coast, and 1 could have ar- ranged with them hen, if 1 had the guarantee from the Cus- loui House. Hi>l we did not get away from the coast before the -'.'ith of Jun<-. Q. — You could not leave as you could not get Indians until 3u you got word from the (Jiistoiii Housi' that you would not be wi/ed? A. — No. Q. — How many seals did you get in that month in 1888 in ihe Hehring Hea? A.— About 9(M>. Q. — You were there in 1889 in tli«' "Minnie?" A. — Yes. Q. — What was voiir catch up to the day of the seizure of I lie Minnie? A.— 4.18 or 429. H. — That wan between what dates? A. — I went in on the 27th of June. (i._You were there in 1899? A.— Yes. in the "Minnie." Q. — What time did you get into the Sea that year? A. — About the middle of July. Q. — How many boats and what nnmber of hunters did you have? A. — Eight canoes and two boats but one ran away from me. I had Indian hunters. (i. — Did you hav«' that boat all tlie wason? A. — No, he ran II way on the cft I lie hutin); {froiinds. Q. — What WHB your eateh that year? A. — Abuut 1,6W0. Q.— That was in llehrinp Hea? A.— Yes. ((', is it not? A. — No, not us far us 1 know. y.— In 1888, you said tlie catch was !)00? A.— Yes. y. — What boait were you in that year? A. — The "Moun- tain Chief." y. — You had six canoes and a boat? A— 1 had no boat. J liad live canoes and a canoe for myself. y. — Did you yourwlf hunt? A. — Ves. y. — You are a ;;»K)d shot? A. — Well, 1 did (he best 1 could (hat time. 1 just s(ar(i'd (lien. y. — Is i( cnslcmary for you (o hun( Mboat (he same leng(h of (inie during the day (hat your huu(ers do? A. — No, 1 had to salt lite skins and do (he work on (he schooner, and I «)nly had one man lef( on (he vessel. I would siilt (lu' skins and then ^o out afterwards, and come back (irst again to haul in the seals. il. — Have you swn recently any correct account of the num- ber *>f skins (he "Mountain ('hief took in 1888? A. — 1 have 40 not, (i.— Is not 8(M) m-arer correct than OC.O? A.— No, I do not think it is. il. — Did y(Mi make ii rt'lurn (o (he Custom House? A. — No, no( a( (ha( time. il. — Did anylxMly elw n>ake a return for (he "Mountain Chief"? A.— No. ■ il- — Mr. .lacobsen, is not 825 (he corr«'ct number taken (hat year? A. — No. it is not. Q.— Wlia( is i(? A.— 1( is nearly alM)ut 900. Q. — What is (he correct date when yon went into Itehring Kea tlai( year? A. — W«'ll, I have not go( exacdy (he correc( date, but it was in the (irs( part of August. Q. — Was it (he (lrs( of August or (he first part of August? A. — I canno( say i( was (he 1st of August. il. — Was it (he last of July? A. — I cannot say that for certain, but I know il was about the first part of August. Q. — What was your last lowering day in 1888? A. — I low<'red nlM>ut (he very last day in the Pass, and got sixty odd skins. I w«'"nt oh( of (he Pass after we took in water in the I'ass. The caniM's saw seals in the morning aft«'r they flUed with water and they lowered an«l I got sixty seals right in the Pass. Q.— That was about the first of September? A.— It was l»etwn (he (hivd and the seventh of Reptember. I cleared the Pass on the seventh of Reptember. Q. — You were s«>aling H|» to the s(>venth of Reptember that year? A. — Yi**. 50 60 lO 20 30 40 50 Co 66s (Victor .Incolmen — Crora.) Q. — Till' «'.\|>l)iniilion voii pivr for Itoin^ in tli(> wtt ho very late wn» Im'ohih*' j'ou Htiirti-d out ho late? A. — Yob. H. — Von had a linrd time j^etting linnterB that .year and .von wanted to make np in tin* Jnttt part of the Heancm wliat .von loBt in the tirst part? A. — I was there to get the seal. That in what I waH there for. Q. — You Btayed a little later than uHual for that reaBon? A. — I BtaycKi to get the Heals. We got in late and I did not have many seals and I wanted to get among seals and take my ehnneeB. Q. — You stayed later than UBual that year? A. — That year before I «'nnje out on aecoiint of the seizures and this year was only my seeond year there. I was not seui-ed of any- thing for I knew there w«'re no seizures, and I stayed as long as I eould on aeeount of the weather. I stayed as long as I dared to on account of my small vessel. Q. — In ISSlt you were seized, I iH'lieve? A. — Yes. (J.— About the 27th of ,luly? A.— No, on the 1.5th. (J.— And you say that up to the 15th <»f -luly you had 218 skins? A.— I had more on the const iM'fore 1 went in. Q. — You carried some of them into the Sea? A. — About half of them. Q. — I suppose you will be here again for cross examination on another claim? A. — I suppose so. Q. — In 1890, you had eight canoes and two boats? A. — One boat ran away on the west coast. Q. — You used the boat for hunting seals yourself? A. — Yes. Q. — IIow many Indians did vou have in each canoe? A.^ Two. Q. — Did they have guns or spears in 181)0? A. — Koth guns and 8p<>arB. Q. — About what time of the year did you go into the Sea? A. — Ab«»ut the middle of -Inly, so far as I remember. Q. — And wheii did you come out? A. — The last day I seal- ed was on the 2 1st of August. Q. — Where you warned out that year? A. — No. Q. — Did you come out because you were afraid you would be sinzed? A. — No. Q. — Did you come out for water? A. — I came out because I thought I had sealed enough. I had then four or tive hun- dred seals more than I had any salt for. Q. — You nuule an unusual catch that year? A. — That is what I did. Q. — The fact is that you made a larger <'atcli than y(Hi counted ujmn making? A. — That is wliat 1 did. Q. — And you had so many skins that you found that you had not brought salt enougli to salt them? A. — Yes, I did not have a great deal of means to get all these things, the year aft«'r I was seiy.fd. I did not have a great deal of store list and ev«'rytliing else that year. I didn't have much money after I was seized. Q.— Did thev 5ake all your salt the year before? A. — No. Q.— They diil not lake "any, did they? A.— They took B««ne. Q.— ITow much did they take? A.— Three or five sacks. 1 don't remember which. Q.— Flow much did it weigh all together? A.— About 100 pounds to the sack. They took about 40(» or 500 pounds of salt. Q._What boat were vou on in 1887? A.— The "Moun- tain Chief." Q.— What equipment did you have that year? A.— Four canoes. Q.— How many boats? A.— We had four canoes and a canoe for mvself. w m if;' li I! : ^t :iji'i|i B lO 20 666 ( Victor .l)i(-«iliM-ii — < 'roMH — ■{•> «lii<>rl.l Q. — A( wlia! URh to salt your skins" A. — Not alone that, I had a hij? catch and the Indiana thought they had all the seals they wanted and had mnde all the money they wanteting was had. We might go ten or fifttiMi miles from the schmnier, and another thing we always hunt a little against the wind. Wherever the wind^»lows from that is the din'ction we hunt. This closed the examination of the witness. 60 Robert .Tames Ker was recalled as a witness on the part of fJreat Britain. Direct examination bv Mr. Hodwell: ii lO 667 (K. .1. Kci— DincI— ('n»«M.) Q. — Mr. Ker, you work or K. I*. Uithet & L'tHiipiiuy, Liiuil- c'dV A. — Yt's, sir. Q. — And tlwy were the itt'i-HouH who ttlti'd out tlu* "Muggiu Mac" in the yoan that she was HiiilinK? A. — Vus, they aft- vd as agi'utH for hvr. (j. — And th«>y r<-4*«>iv«>d th*> HkinM at the end of the HoaHon or the purpoMeH of sale? A. — Voh, sir. Q. — WaH «he captain in tlie liabit of reiM>rtinK to j-oii the number of Heals that were caught on the vctyage? A. — Yen, he alwayH reimrled and we always had them tally^nl into (»ur warehouse. Q. — You had charge of that part of the business for K. 1*. Kithet & (^(Hnpany at that lime? A.— Y«'S. Q. — Can you give us the «'atch of the "Maggie Mac"' in the Itehring Hea in the year 18X8? A. — No, 1 cannot give it to you for 1888. Q. — Why? A. — Itecause we did not not as agents for her 20 that year. Q. — Can you give us the catch in the Rehring Sen for the year 188!>? A.— Yes. Q. — >Vluit was it? A. — One thousand two liundnMl and ninety skins. Q. — Do you know how many boats the "Maggie Mac" hiid? A. — I believe she had six boats. Q. — Do you know that yourself? A. — I know the crew that she had (»n board. I know sln^ took '2'.i white men and siie w«>uld have six boats for tlioin. 50 ii. — Do you know what lime she «'ntered the Behring Rea and what lime she came out? A. — I cannot say. (J. — Did the <-aptain niak«' any return at nil showing what time he left the sea? A. — No. I do not think he wouhl. Q. — Can you give us the catcli of the "Maggie Mac" in Rehring Rea in 1890? A.— Yes, 847 skins. Q. — VVhat was the equipment of tlie ship that year? A. — .lust the same, six boats. Q. — You might give us tlie total catch for the coast and Itehring Rea in 1889 and 1890? A. -In 1889 it was 2.(l«7, and in 1890 it was l,9r)4. CroBS-exiimination by Mr. Lansing: Q. — Did yoii have cliarge of this matter in 1889? A. — Y«»8. I had charge of the accounts and the business detiiing with the sehod at Rand Point or any point near the entrance to the Rea? A. — I think not. Q. — Then how do you know? A. — No, in every case they were transferred. Q. — Do you know in these cases yon have given A. — In thos<» two cases I cannot say for sure whether they were or not. Q. — You cannot tell whether they were one hundred or two hundred or three hundred taken on the upper const catch? A. — Oh, yes, I can. Q. — TTow? A. — From the return of the insurance. 40 50 c>o I ii i|H|' 6(58 (RolM'rl J. K«'i'— CioHH.) (j. — Wiiiil wiiH tli«- iii»|ii-r niiiHt viiti-h uf tlic "Mu^ttif Mae" in ISH)>? A. — H«'i' upiK-r «oiiMt iiitrli wii» JilH. Q. — Were tht'He n-turmil? A. — 1 bolifvc ihi'ne wen' rolnrn vd. Q.— Wero they rt'turniHl In 18!M) nlno? A.— No, I lu'lifve tli«-.v kept tlu'ni all «)n buiird fur IHUO. (i.— What wan her lower coaHt witch In 185H)? A.— 1,107. lO ^'' — ^" "'*' "**'■>'''■>? H*'" ivturu, you have lucludcHl Home of the eouHt eateh? A. — No, It eoiild not very well be that. They ahvayH turnear that by my vouch- ers it does. Q. — But not from the ca]»taln's vouchers? A. — I do not know that I luive any vouchers from the captain. Q. — What do you mean by saying that you know It from the Insurance? A. — The report is turned in to place in the in- .Q .surance on the skinH from that day. Q. — What was her upper coast catch? A. — The 1,107 take in tile wliole coast catch. I cannot divide them. Q. — You are not ready to say whether all these seals were taken in Rehring Sea? .\. — i <'an tell that 847 were taken in Itehring Sea, because 1,107 were returned us from Sand Point, and they wero insured from that day. Q. — Was thert! a transshipment of skins in ISSO from that point? A. — I cannot swear if tlu'V were transferred or if they were kept aboard the schooner. 50 Q. — You do not knew if they were transferred In ISSO? A. — I cannot say without referring to the vouchers. Q. — You won't swear that this represents only the Itehring Sea catch? A. — Yes, I am prejmred to say that 847 re- presents the Itehring Sea catch. Q.— And where is your Sand Point catch? A.— The 1,107 that were r<'turned from Sand Point, Q. — As I understand there are three catches in 1880? A. —Yes. 60 Q. — That Ih tlu> lower coast catch and the ui>i)or coast catch and the Itehring Sea catch? A. — Yes. After he left the harbor hero and sealed on the lower coast, and then sealed jjerhaps up to Sand Point his catch would total uj) 1,107. He was sealing all the time possibly. He could come in here ind land some skins and then go on sealing again. Q. — He did not tr.ms-shlp on the west coast? A. — Not thaf year. 66<> lO 30 (|{. .1. Kt-r— ("loHH— Ufdii'tH'l.) (2.— Aud did nut coiiit' in l<> \'it;toriu UKiiin witli liiH lowur loJiBt nilcli? A.— No, hv conid not liavo ronu- to Vieloriii. Q.— Wji8 tlu-re u truna-^liipniont of Hkinn in llSS'J at Sand Point. Tlint ia tlie yoar in wliicli yon tcHtiflod tliero w«'rc 1,- •J!iO pkinB tniion in Ut'lirinK Hi-a? A.— Ych, I believe there waH a tranafer in tlnit year. Q.— At Band I'olnt? .A.— I cannot Hay if it wag at Rand I'oint or not. 0 merely includcH the Itehriu); Hea catch? It may include the upjier «'oaHt catch? \. — TlieHe~(ii:t were trauHerred at the time. Tliey don't do any m'niiuK on the upper const. il — When were they transferred? A. — I think in July. I cannot swear to the day now. I have not the iMemorandum with me. . S (i. — ^'oll d Mac." Q. — In 1SS9, did you have any other vessels? A. — .lust tL« two. Q. — In 188S. di3 you have charge of any others? A, — No, ISS!) was onr first year. The witness was not further examined. Mr. Bodwell: — If my learned friends want any more infor- mation from tliiK witness I can brinj? him back with the vouchers for the accounts. Mr. Dickinson: — An far as the oral testiincmy of this wit- ness is concerned, he has given no evidence except that he is 6o the custodian of these iiapers. We 'r> .lot believi* that he lias given any evidence at all in refert ^ e to tlie case. Mr. Peters: — We think he has. Mr. Bodwell' — If you are satisfied that the evid«'nce Tie has given, with resjnrd to the vouchers, is correct we need not bring him back to produce the vouchers. Mr. Dickinson: — If you are satisfied, we are satisfied. I can say in all frankness that I do not regard this as testi- \m ■w ^i so li^ lO 6;o (UolH-rl K. MiKiil— DliTct.) iiion.v lit nil. If yoii art' willinK to tiikt' the rink of lonving t( iiH It Ih tht>n wt> tin' witlKfli-d. hlv. I<4mTw*>IT:— Tli«>ii wf will briiiK tMa wltuciw btu-k with the vouchent. Mr. IMckiiiHoii: — \Ve rt E. Mc-Keil, a wi i'HH prodneed on the luirt uf Ureal 3*^ Itritain, recalltd. The linion.v of tlie wilneHH a|)|>lieH in );enenil tu all tlie v.am'h > the <|ueHtiun of catch, iucludiut; the "Carolena." Direct examination by Mr. Peters: (i. — ('iiptain McKeil, yon have Immmi examined with regard to the tliiiiKH that took place in the years ISKO and 18H7? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— You were master of the "Hiatrice" in 1889? A.— Yes. 40 sir. Q. — How many cans did yon carry? A. — I carried 111 canoes on the coast. Q. — Where did the "Heatrice" come from that year? A. — From Japan. Q. — Did you biing her over? A. — I brought her over that same vear. Q. — »Vlien did von arrivv» h«'re? A. — I arrived here some- where about the Ist Ai»ril. 188». il. — You went waling on the ciwist with 12 canHand with S® what crew? A. — I carried one l)oat, tlve Japanese and «me white man iK'hides myself. ii. — You had 12 Indians, live Ji'panese, four seamen, the <'ook. tlie captain and the mate? A. — That was in the Beh- ring Sea. Q. — That does not ajiply to the co;>j*t? A. — I had 12 ca- n(M'8. that is. '2i Indians, on the coast, I liad four Jai>anese bailors and a Tapanene cook, and the mate and myself, wlio were both white men. (5o Q.— Did you make a catch on the coast? A.— I caught 40!) on the const. Q._Pi,l vou go into tlu' Behring Sea? A.— Yes, sir. Q._Did "you make a catch in the Behring Sea? A.— I made something over fiOO in the Behring Sea. Q. — How many canoes did you take into the Behring Sea? A.— Six. Q. — What crew did you have besides the Indians? A.— Five Japanese, the mate, a white man, and myself. 10 »0 30 671 (KoImii K. Mi Kii'l— IHnil.» y.— IIOW WHH 11 30U llUd Hlltll a Mlllllll CIVW tlll'U? A.— Tlu> Hchuuuer w:ih hIciiuki' uii th** i-utiHt uiid tlic liidiuuti weru lifruid. g.— Afritid of what? Did th> uut kiiuw tlic> owiii'i? A.— T\wy did uot ku')w tlfowiifiaiid (lu'y wen- Mfriild about their in\y. g.— Aud tli«'«'for«' ill K<*ii>K '«>•*> thi* lichriiiK Ht-u .v«u had tml.v u Hiiiall crew? A.— Only a Himill nvw. r at wiiat (hitc ,voii gut into tin- Hi-li- riiiK Hva? A.— Honu'whcic Itt'twiM-n the 4th and lOlli of luly. (i.— Had tlH'Mc IiKliaiiH lM't>n in th«' ItclirinK Woa before? A. — Home of tliein had. (J. — WIk'H did ,voH leave the HehrinK H«'a that vear? A. — I think about the 2(Mh AuKUHt. Q.— fan .vou give nie yoiii' eateh in (lie Itehring Rea? A. — <•:((> odd I think I i-auKht : I aut not Hiire exaetly, g. — DoeH that inelnde any HeiilH caiittht outside Kehrini; Hea? Or Ih it just the IJeh'il. >; Hea nit.h? A.— I think I i-aut;lit three or four HealM on the imttmiKe up the roast otT VaiK-oiiver Island. Q. — Oenerally N|ieiikiiif;, tlies*- (i.10 seals were i-aught in the ItehriuK Sea? A. — Ves. all but three or f<<>n in the Helirinp Mea before. Q. — In addition to that did inythin;! unusual haii]>en? A. — 1 lost thr»K' of tlio ranoes about the l.'ltli of Anpust, I think. Q. — Did you »'ver find thein aptin? \. — I never found them n^ain. The rommissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Was that with the men in them? Or did they simjily >;o adHft? A — The men went adrift; we lost them in a fojj. Ifii 40 10 60 Direct examination <-(>iitiiiued by Mr. I'eters: y. — You lost half of your Indian hunters? A. — I lont half of my Indians on tlie l;Uli Aiipust. Q. — Did that interfere with your hunting? A. — I did not liuut afterwards: I was hunting fur the Indians from that until I left the 8ea. ij. — Hu that, praetically, your hunting ended on the i:Uh of .\ugust? A. — Yes. g. — I believe these three Indians afterwaids got ashore somewhere? \. — They jjot ashore at Onnalaska. Q. — During the time that yi went ffoni ( -liiyociuot to Itehring Sea? A. — N«», i went fivui t'la,voqnot fur(lu>r down thi' couHt to fetch ni.v «'r»'w. \i. — Then ycni went to the Hehrint; Sea? to the Itehi-inj; Sea. Q.— That ended the vctya^e foi- 1SS!>, I bi'lieve? Hir. (i.--In what ship? A.— In the "E. IJ. toria. Q. — How many boats had you? A. — On tlie coast we had six ix'unhu' liuntintj botits and the stern l»oat. Q. — Did you fisli on tlie coast? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Can you pive nie your coast caitcli up to Sand Point? A.— It was"l24G. Q. — Did you land your coast catcli there? A. — I'art of it. Q. — Did you ialie any part of your coast catch into IJehr- iufj Sea? A. — No, sfr. i}. — Ilavinfj completed your tisliin^ on the coast did you go into the It(er. Q. — Onn you nive nn> your catch in Rehrinji; Sen in that 30 year? A.— !)18, I think. Q. — What sort of a season was 18!)t)? A. — A very |)oor s«*as(m. It was stormy, and there was too much wind to hunt in July and the tirst part of .\ufiust. Q. — It set in tine after that? A. — There was some flue weatlu'r afterwards. Q. — Rut you did not luippen to pet the seals? A. — I did not tind them. Q. — Do you remember when you ju-jictically stopjM'd sealing for that year — do you remember your last day's sealln):? A — I cann<»t remember now, e.xac^tly; the last day I hunted was, T think, the :s, sir, a jjeod crew. Q. — .\m a matter' of fact nie there any pray pups caught in Heliring Sea, or any nuantity of them? Tell us your experi- ence ill this matter? .\. — I may have got luie or two in my own experience, but I cannot rc'iiieniber. I think I remem- ber one or two, but no mon'. (}. — That is in your whole exiiericnce? A. — Yes, sir. (J. — .\iid you have sealed for ten Vijirs? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — .Vnd you have only got one or two gray piijis in that time? .\. — I may have got more than that, but I cannot re- member. Q. — Whatever you may have g«»t, it is a "cry trifling nuin ber. 40 50 60 Cross examination tiy Mr. Warren. 673 (Kobei-t E. Mi'Kiol— Cross.) Q.— You wtTL' in the "E. I». Marvin" in 1890? \v:m A. — Vt'S, •11-. 10 Q. — What is lier tonnafte? A. — It is something over 100 t«!na rejjiatered; I do not remember tlie fi>;ures. Q. — siie is r tliat much' huntin)j^ was done in tlie stern boat in the Hehnnn Sea. Q. — Was tlieiv any liunting done in it in the BehriuR Sea? A. — I do not remember. Q. — How many men did you have in the Belirinp Sea in 1890? A.— I think it was 20 all told. Q. — So that in each boat there were three men? A. — Three men in each boat. Q. — And yon entered the sea betw«'en the 4th and lOtli of 20 July? A. — I think so. y«'s sir. Q. — What was your last lowering day in 1800? A. — 1 think The 80th or 31st August. Q. — You sealed right down to tlie Pass then? A. — No. I lowered last about ($0 miles to the northward of the Pass. Q. — Did you go to the Unimak Pass that year? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you took 018 skins? .\. — I think that was the num- ber. Q. — You stayed jiretty late and you say that the season 30 was stormy and poor — did you try to make up for the bad weatlier by staying late? \. — Oh. yes. I intended to stay late but the vessel began leaking. Q. — You were endeavoring to stay late that y«'ar because of its b«>ing a poor season throughout and you wanted to make up the results? A. — I would have stayed in longer; I had jiro- visions and everytliing on board. I intended to stay in as long as the fine weather lasted. Q. — You were outfitted for a late season tliat year? A. — I do not know as I was. Q. — Yoii have been on the witness stand before? A. — I have. Q. — .\nd told when you left the Sea in the year you were examine*! about? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did you stay later in 1800 than during the other sea- s(uis? A. — I stayed later than any time previous. Q. — You were on tlie Beatrice in 1880? A. — Yes. 0- — What was tlie tonnage of the "Beatrice? A. — About 00 tons. T think. Q. — .\nd you had six canoes in the Sea up to the l.^th of .\ugust? A. — Yes. until about tha<^ time. 0. — Did you have a slern l>ont? A. — Yes. Q. — Was tlie stern boat used for hunting? .\. — Yes. Q. — Was it used frcouently or infre»]uently? .\. — Well, everv day we lowered th<^ stern boat was used. 0. — So that u() to the ll^tli of .\ngust yon had but one boat and six canoes out on low«Ming days' A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .\nd on the l.ltli you say you lost three canoes? .\. — Ves, sir. Q. — .\iid jifter that time you did not lower your boats? .\.— No. sir. T did not lower after that. O. — Did von take nnv seals after that? .V — T do not think so; I mnv have jiicked \w (Uie that was cruising around, but no consideritlile ninnbrr; T did not low"'r. 0. — Von stiived in the Sta until about 20th .Vugust? .\. — Yes. I (hink 1 came out aliout the 20tli. f^ — Did von find vonr Indians at Ouniilasku? A. — I did 48 ,|0 50 60 m ■ft- ^r '■mm '. f t| lO 20 674 (Itohort E. MfKiel — Cross. Robei-t J. Kor — Direct.) not find them; the.y got ashore at OunalaHkn, and went down on the "('orwin''or the "Rush." Q. — The.v liad been taken down before you arrived at Oun- alaska? A. — Xo, I tliink that it was about the time that 1 left tlie Pass. Q. — You did not stop at Ounalaska? A. — No, I did not stop at Ounalaska. (j. — Wli.at boat we»e you in in 1888? A. — I was in the "Mary Taylor'' on thi! roast. Q. — Did you qo into the Sea that year? A. — No, I did not go into the Sea. Q._Who was the captain of the "Theresa" in 18ft0? A.— Ste<'le. Q. — Is he in Victoria? A. — I think so. Q.— Who was the master of the "0. U. Tapper" in ISftO? A. — Captain Kelly. Q. — Is he in ^'ictoria? A. — I think he is. Q. — She was in the Sea, was she not, in 1800? A. — I think she was. Q.— And the "Th«'resa" was in Rehring Sea in 1800? A.— T suppose she was. but I did not see her. Q. — Who was the master of the "Katheriiie," formerly the "Black Diamond, " in 1800? A. — I do not remember. 30 •il'tv j) I it I if 11 40 50 60 Robert Jameu Ker, a witness on the part of Great Britain, was recalled. Direct examination by Mr. Bodwell: Q. — Have you looked over any further papers or vouchers respecling the ( atch of the "Maggie Mac" for 1888, 1880, ISOO? A.— Y<'s. Q.— What haxe you found in 1880? A.— I found a letter from the captain. Q.— Have you that U-tter? A.— Yes. Q. — Will you produce it? A. — Yes. (i. — You knt)\v the caittain's handwriting? A. — Yes. (J. — Is that l<>t(er in his handwriting? A. — Yes, that let ter is in his handwriting. Q.— What is the date of that letter? A.— It is dated 20th June. 1880. Q. — Wlu're was it written from' A. — From Sand Point. Q — In the usual course of business what was the occasion of writing that letter from Sand Point at that time? A. — Well, to advise us of tlu> fact of forwarding the catch down to us and also for insurance ])Ui'poses. Q. — The catch was forwarded down to Victoria before the vessel went into Beliring Sea, and that was the usual course of business? A. — Yes, sir. Letter received an-l maiked E.xhibit 30, (J.B., Claim No. I il — What was the "Wanderer" referred to in that letter? A. — The "Wanderer" is a sailing schooner which brought down the skins from Sand Point to Victoria. Q. — Did these (»i;? skins arrive in Victoria? A. — Yes, they did. Q. — Anil afterwards the schoom-r "Maggie Mac" arrived down from Beliring Sea with her catch in Behring Sea? Q, — Have you any other voucher with reference to the year X800? A. — I have a letter of advice from the captain. Q. Bir. 6;^ (UolM-rt J. Kfi— I)iiv«t— <'i(>MH— K<'dimf.) -That h'Uvv is in the captiiin'H haiidwriting? A. -Yea, 10 30 Q.— It is dated Xortbeast Harbor, Slnimign, July 5tli, 18!)0? A.— Yes. letter received and marked "Exhibit .'U, (i. U.." rjaiin Xo. 1. Q. — What was the schooner which you liavr referred to there? A. — Slie was a steam schooner wliieh acted as a sort i»f tender to bring down tlie sJiius that year. Q. — And tliis letter was written in puisuance of the usual ( onrse of business wliich 30U liave spoken of a moment or two iijjo? A. —Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know wliether tlie 1 107 skins referred to in tliat letter arrived in Victoria? A. — Yes. Q. — T)o you know whetjier or not the "Magpie Mac" after- wards arrived? A. — Yes. Q. — She afterwards arrived at ^'ictoria with the catch from 20 Hehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Give the catches for 1SS» and ISftO on tlu' "Maggh' Mac?" A.— For 18Sn, 1290; for ISftO. 847. Cross-exaniinalion by Mr. Lansing: Q.— Does this letter. Exhibit 30, refer to tlie IJehring Sea catch? A.— No, sir. Q.— Does Exhibit Xo. .SI refer to the liehring Sea catcli? A. — \o. sir. Q. — Have you any voucher or ])aper in the handwriting of (lie captain that does refer to the Beliriiig Sea catch? A. — Xo, sir. Re-direct examination by Mr. Itodwell; Q. — now do you know that the skins from Rehring Sea ar- lived in Victoria? A. — They were tallied out from the schooner on the arrival of the schooner. Q. — Who did that? A. — It was done by one of the ware- housemen. Q. — How did the report come to you? A. — The report was handed in to tlie oflici* and would be compared with the i(')>ort or verbal stati'ment of the contain of the vessel. Q. — And checked by you? .V.— Yes. Q. — And an entry made? .\. — Yes. Q. — .\nd you ifopt that entry? A. —Yes. Re-cross-examinafion by Mr. Lansing: Q. — .\re the men who kept the tally her*'? A. — They might be; I cannot say whether (hey are or not. Q. — f'otild you state from your books who kept the tally? A. — Of course it would be hard to say; tlicy would be turned in (Ml slips and taken off these slips into the book. It is hard now to say wliar might have become of these slips. Q. — You do 'lot keej) the slips on file? A. — I do not think s(i. I think tlu> war»>liousemen keep them for a while, and 'hen possibly they would be Torn up. ii. — Is the same warehouseman in your employ now as llicn? A. — X'o, he is not in our employment. Q. — Where is he? .\. — I fanr-4 tlu-n took recess At half past (wo thi" t'ommissioners resumed their seats. m^ n aiiiiiH^ ii«'iii (AVilliiini (i. Goiidie — Direct.) Luughliu McLran, a witnosu already examined in the ease, on the part of ('teat Britain, was recalled, and continued his testimony. 20 30 William (i. Goudic was called f.s a witness on the part of 10 (Jreat Britain ;ind duly sworn. Mr. Bodwell:' — The evidence of this witness will be applied to the "Carolena" case and to all tlie otlier cases as regards the catch. Direct examination by Mr. Bodwell: Q. — You were hunting seal on the "MoUie Adams" in 1889, were you not? A.— Yes. Q. — Did you go. into Behring Sea that year? A. — Yes. Q. — Who was the master? A. — Captain Solomon Jacobs. Q. — He is not in this country now? A. — 'So, sir, he was lost. Q. — Did they have a mate that year? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did they have a navigator? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What was the name of the navigator? A. — Wartz. Q. — Is he here in Victoria? A.^The last I heard from liim he Avns in San I''iancisco. Q. — You were a hunter on board that schooner? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — During the whole season? A. — Yes, in the Behring Sea. I was not on the coast. Q. — How many sealing boats had you? A. — Eight and the captain's. Q. — You had a while crew? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you Iseep a record of the catch? A. — Yes. I had it at one time. Q.— Have yon got it now? A. — No. Q. — Have you looked for it? A. — It is burnt. Q. — You found on enquiry at your house that the book was burnt? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you know when it was burnt? A. — Some time this last summer. Q. — Can you state from memory when you entered the Beh- ring Sea tliat summer? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— When was it? A.— The 4th of July. Q. — Can you say when you quit hunting in the Sea? A. — No. I cannot. It was itiong somewhere about the 11th of July. Q. — You do not understand the <)uesl'on. I ask you when 50 you quit sealing in the Behring Sea? A. — The I5th of Octo ber. Q. — What was on the date the 11th of July that you sjKtkf of just now? A. — We started sealing about Rft miles olT Ounalaska. Q. — Was the 1 1th of July the day on which you started se»l- ing in the Behring Sea? A. — Yes, that was the first day Somewhere about tli,' Irttli or IKh or ilong there I d«t not remember correctly. Q. — How many seals did yo\i catch in Behring Sea that 60 year? A. — Weil, some where along ab«>ut 1,."(()0, as near as i can go to it. Between l,r)0(> and 1,fiOO or some where there abonts. Q. — Did yon get seals up to the time that you left B<;li';iug Pea? A.— The last day that we lowered was the .Ith of Octo ber. and we got 120 that day. Crosscxamination by Mr. Lansing: Q. — Where were you born? A, — Newfoundland. 40 677 10 20 40 50 6o (Williaiu (i. Uoudio — CroHS.) Q. — ilow long have you beeu out on this coast? A.— ("auje in 1888. y — On the "Alollie Adamn? A. — Came overland from < iloucester, Masisacliusetts. Q. — How nian^ yeai's have you been seal hunting? A. — Eight HoaHonu. y.— When did you enter ^he Sea in 1888? A.— I think it was about the 15th of July on the Edward Welch. Q.— When did you enter in IS'JO? A.— Well, on the 4th of .luly 1 went in Unimak Pass. y. — What day did you begin sealing in Behring Sea in 1888? A. — 1 do not know. I believe along the middle of July as near as 1 can go to it. (I. — Cannot you fix the date within a day or two? A. — Not for 1888, but 1 know it was in July. Q. — in 1890 when did you enter the Sea? A.— I was on the Sapphire that year. ii. — I ask you when did you enter the Sea in 1890? A. — Somewhere! about the l-*th of July in 1800. (i. — How do you Hx the date? A. — I know it was the 12th of July in 1800 or about there. I pretty near know what time it was. il. — Are you sure about it? A. — Well, I do not know I am certain alwut it, but 1 know it is along there scmiewhere. th was thv last day we lowered. (i. — Did you hear any talk about an intention to raid the islands? A. — Well, we had been raiding the islands before that, sir. ti. — You had been? A. — Yes, sir, before that. Q. — How many seals did you take otf the island? A. — I lliink somewhere about .'{tlO or thereabouts. It was between :!.•)(• and 400. (i.— Did you kill them with clubs? A.— Yes. clubs. Q. — You knew it was against the law of the T'nited States to kill these seals on this island? A.— In fact, I did not lw«'rinn bi'foiv Ihat? A. — Oli, well, HOiii<> time in August. (2. — Was it before tiie luth of Aiip;uHt. yoiiT last lowerinji; day? A. — No, sir. the latter part of Aiinust. y. — Hetweeii tlie 2(>th and L'ntli? A. — Somewhere there- abouts. • H. — Th»'n when you say your total catch in llehrinp Sea was between 1.500 and l.(!0(( does that int-lude the number you took in that raid? .\. — That includes the whole busi- ness. Q.— What is the tonnaRO of the "Mollie Adams"? A.— 1(>7 tons. I think. (i. — How many boats did you have, hunting; boats? \. — Ei^ht all told. Q. — And how many in a boat? .\. — Two in a boat, 21 men all told, cook, three in the captain's boat. Q. — Now. Mr. (loudie, in that raid that you made you say that you t(M»k about :{(!(l, are you not mistaken and was it not .')74 skins? A. — No, sir, I am not mistaken. Q. — How do you know? A. — Hecause I pretty near know. We counted them on deck, and 1 have often spoken of it since that it was less than four hundred. Q. — Did you count them yourself? A. — I saw the captain countiufj them and three or four of us were counting the skins the next day when we were salting them. Q. — Who was .lie captain, did you say? A. — Sol. Ja«'obs. ti. — Who else aided in that count of skins? A. — Well, the captain counted them and tlu' navigator counted them, I don't know but that Is all, he told us he got some 4<»0. Q. — Did you count them? A. — I didn't. Q. — Was any memorandum put down separating those skins from the others? A. — I guess the captain put them do^^n in his book. Q. — Did you see any memorandum? A. — No. I did not. {}. — Did you put down any memorandum of the number? A. — I pr down a memorandum of the whole catch. I didn't put down them skins. Q. — Of the whole seas skins from Ciiptain Carthcut of the "San Diego"' in the year 188:{? A.— Yes, sir. Ou Octo- ber l.Uh, boi.gl't of .). L. Carthciit J>1(> salted seals. Now, affording to the fa])tain's book Mr. Dickinson : — Never mind. 20 Witness: — I must say this, the book shows here — Mr. Peters: — Your book shows it, that there would be a dif- ference The Commissioner on the i)art of the United States:— I think Judge King and myself will agree that you must keep within the strii't rules when you attempt to contradict a wit- ness. Mr. Peters: — The point I am getting at here is. that tlie JO catch for Behriug Sea instead of being 32«) was 91 (» or t)17. And the question that h<' wants to bring out here, and Mr. Dickinson would not object to it if he considers a moment, that book contains an alteration of the figures seven and six, there being a doubt whether it is !)H> or !)17. The point is very small and tot worth arguing about. Q. — Can you tell lue whether those are Beliring Sen skins or not? A. — They were liehring Sea skins. Q. — You remember when the sliip arrived from Behring Sea? A.— Yes. 40 50 Mr. Dickinson: — He knows as an expert when the ship got in? A. — No, sir, from my correspondence I can tell. Q. — Have you correspondence there written at the time which shows you all tliese facts? Objected to by Mr. Dickinson : The Conmiisaioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I think a person could look at it for the purpose of refreshing his recol- lection. Q. — You were in Victoria, and knew of her arrival? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And knowing of lier arrival did you write a letter about it at tlie time? A.— AVell. on October 11. IHSJl, I telegraph ed to New York, in cipher: "San Diego" arrived witli !»(»() Alaskan seals." 60 Mr. Dickinson: — Tliat is your telegram to some one? — Yes. to New York. A. Q.— That shows she had arrived before that? A.— I think she must have urriveil the same day. Q._l)id you tlien, after that, have some correspondence with regard to I lie purchase of those seals? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— And did vou actuallv purchase them? A.— Certainly T did. '"] lO 20 4& V-i "o 68 ( (TIumhIoh' hiililM' — Dii't'ct — (!r(ms — Uo-dinTt.) Q. — 80 tliut .vou are iibli" of ^voiir own knowh-dgi- to Htnto what niiiiibcr ol" hvuIh wwv raii|:lit? A. — Oh, t-crtaiiily. (i. — And tlu' nuiiitior was ? A. — 'JIU, b.v my coiiut, and tlic captain 8 book showed *J17. 1 went through his bookM in order '<> hnd out tiie lay. (i. — Have you any doubt aboiit tiiose faetH! as to the num- l»er of sealH you bought from him? A. — Not a partiele. Q. — Did you know ('aptaiu i'artiuut pretty well? A. — Very well. Q. — Was he master of the ship for those two years? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Well, for any longer time? A. — Yes. he was the mast- er in ISHl. Q. — And how long did lie continue nuister of hef? A. — I do not know; Captain McLean came in. I think, in 1H88. Q.— At all events, he was master in 18M1, 1882 and 1883? A. — Those thr.',' years. Q. — You know of that yourself? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — From having purchased his skins, I believe, for every .^ear. A. — Yes. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q . — Can you tell the diff«'renee between a seal caught on the upper coasr and the liehring Sea seals? A. — During these years? , Q. — Will you answer that (juestion? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — From the examination of the skins? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Suppose a skin v.as caught outside the pass, we will say in the Fair Weatlier (Jrounds in the month of July, could you tell where that seal was caught? A. — If you will allow me to tell you l will. Q. — 1 am going to ask the question? A.— But I won't iinswer them. Q. — From your knowledge as an expert in those skins, will you swear that they were caught in Behring Sea? A. — I saw the captain's books. Q. — Will you swear that they were caught in Beliring Sea from your knowledge of skins? A.— No, I can't. Re-direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Mr. Dickinson stopped you at that point, you were go- ing to say how you could tell that in 188,1 Mr. Dickinson: — This testimony is admitted because he is an expert in the examination of seals. Now it is apparent from ills testimony that he could not see where the seals were caught, that his testimony is good for something only because lie is an expert. I have rested the cross-examination upon the single statement as to whether he could tell from those seal skins themselves, resting it upon his expert qualitication, whether they were taught on tlie coast or in Behring Sea. lie attempts to tell me what he got from hearsay informa- tion from some one; but that is not pertinent to the question. The inquiry is rested wholly upon him as an expert when he comes to jmss upon seal skins, and he tells me the only ques- tion I care to ask him, that he cannot tell from the examina- tion of the skin. Now. 1 submit that that cross-examination disposes of all that is mat4»rial in this examination, because he is qualified as an expert, sworn only as an expert in his judgment of whether the seals were caught in Behring Sea or out of it. Tlie Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Do you think that is entirely so, Mr. Dickinson. I was just glancing at the testimony given by Captain McLean, and that refers to a sale of the skins that Captain McLean says were caught in T;; iillt: W I 'I lil'ljll i' ' t ■' I '";:n III lO 20 30 6S2 (TlicMlorc l,iihlM«— HtMliicrt.) Beliriiig Sea. aii«l wliirli wcrt' Hold licic to Mr. liubbc. Tlu'ii if you get tlie transaction of Bale, an*] ilnd that Jt Ih on a dif- ferent principle, but of Hip same year, .vou know, may you not ^ery well come lo tli.' t-oucluHion that that Ih the Hiime tnin- s:iction that Jlr. McT.ean was speaking about, but that ho was mistaken as to liis numbers? Mr. Dickinson:— Tlu'y have tlie beneflt of (hat, and I am perfectly willing that the case should stand on their having the benetit of the !)!(! seals, so far as the number is ccmcenied. I have not examined as to them. We are satisfied with tlie testimony unless he says thai those |)articular seals that Mr. Lubbe bought (June from Itehring Sea. Now. he can only say that because he is an expert, and because experts can teil the difference. He low says he cannot tell it. and I rest it < here. lly Mr. Peters; Q.— Mr. Lubbe, yon were asked by Mr. Dickinson whether or not you can state whether you were in a position to tell whether these seals wei-e nctiuiUy Iteiiring Sea seals or wheth- er they were n(»l ; and you said you wanted to explain. Now 1 simply A ant the explanation. What did you intend to say, Jfr. Lubbe? A.— Well, the Hehring Sea' skins I knew al the tinu'; I jiaid ftu- tiiose skins, $10 ajuece. while during the tame year I shi] j»ed L'i,4:{('», and of the coast catch r>27. Q. — You paid for these. Witness: — Oh, excuse me, this is ISS.'?. Mr. Dickinson: — Now, is it possible thai what he paid per skin can distinguish the skins? He is sworn on this point as an expert. Mr. Peters: — This witness simjdy comes here as a person conversant with certain facts. In order to satisfy my friend, when I came to ask him some questions, I did show he was competent. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— What way has he of telling where these skins that lie bought out of that vessel in these two years came from except v.liat he knows as an expert? Mr. Peters: — I think he has got one of the most practical reasons; that is to say he paid for them at the price of Behring Sea skins. The f'Ommissioner on the part of the United States: — Then. 5° assuming I am right about that, Mr. Dickinson puts the ques- tiojj, "Can you tell the skin of a seul just taken out of th ; I'ass from one just taken in Behring Sea?" 1 understand him to say tliat he cannot, and that is all there is of it. Mr. Dickinson: — He stated f\irther and broadly, on the gen eral questitm, that he cannot tell himself from the examina tion of the skins, whether it is the coast catch or the Behrin>i Sea skin. 60 The (Nmimissioner on the jtart of the United States: — Put your question, and let us see what it is. By Mr. Peters: — Q. — I wish you to explain this. You were asked by Mr. Dickinson whether or not yH|H-cially wlwn it toiilradirtH a man — luiH a tendency to contradict liini. and it) pnt in wludiy for tliat pnr|H)Ht', wiien tlie man wlio may contradict \h not put in tilt' box? Tlic ConiiniHHionor on the part of tlii' T^nitcd Ptato«: — 'o I do not iindcrHtand tliat Air. Peters intended to call oiit the inf(»rmation wliicli he has obtained. Mr. I)iclvin80!i: — Wliat elwe? TliiH witness starts to say that it is on account of tlie price he paid for them. Tlie t'ommiHsioner on the part of tlie United Hlates: — r)> you intend, Mr. TeteiK. 1)V Vinir qnestlou to the wiiness. to call out anything except what he derived from actual obser- vation? 20 Mr. Peters: — Xothinj; else at all. The Commissioner on the jmrt of Her Majesty: — It seems to m«', Mr. Dickinson, that this would Ik* com]H'leiit to prove that they were of the class of skins which are known in the trade as Hehrin^ Sea skins, that is to say, if the trade separ- ates skins into tw4» a skins. If there is a demarkation and marked line known to be different, <»ne caught at a ditl'ereiit time of the year than the other, if then these skins were known to be ot the class ,Q of skins that were caught in the latter part of the year, and known as IVhring Sea skins, I think that would have some bearinp^ on the point, and mi};ht go to the full and necessary extent. I think it would be evidence that would be admis- sible, l>ecaune if in the trade a very nmch larjjer sum is paid for one kind of skin than for another, one cannot shut his mind to this, that there must be som*> distinction known to the mercantile 7nind which puts its money out for dilferent kinds of skins; and if there is this distinctitm and the wit- ness could speak of it. I tliink it would be competent for him 40 to do so, and to say whether the skin came under one catefjory or the other. That would not necessarily prove that they were cau^jht in Itehrin); Sea and not outside of the Pass, but it is evidence for what it is worth. We think, Mr. Peters, that if the witness is cautioned not to answer anything based upon what any one told him, but solely from his own observa- tion, that it is competent for him to do so, even thouph his answer may fa'i short, perhaps, as bearing on the matter of c(mtradictid upon his experience and observation, not depending, however, on what has be; n told to him in the particular case. Hy Mr. Peters: — Q. — Now, Air. Lubbe, will you explain how it is that you are «'nabled to tell whether tiiese seals were ....gat in Behring S -a or on the coast? A. — First of all, by the absence of small sizes, fn those years there was not one white man employed on the west coast hunting, and in fact, we had no white men in the business of hunting seals. The 60 only schooner then engaged was the "San Diego." And wlu'n those skins arrived, in fact all these three lots, I judged them to be Alaska females. Q. — What from? A. — Frcmi llehring Sea. Q. — From what did you judge them to be such? A. — From their appeai'ance. Q. — And what is the dilTerence between a seal caught in Hehring Sea in July and August? A. — T cannot explain that. I cannot tell. In those years all our skins were taken by In- ir:;l|| <~i (•,. «f 684 (Tlit'odort' huhlK' — l{('-hh.) diiiiiM. TIm V WfiM' tlu'ii pelted, Hlietelu««l, mid wlitit we calli'd the ItehrinK ^('H HkiiiH, we rail then AInHkan Hkiim HoinetiiiieH, thew MkiiiH nverapefl in Hize very niueh hirKer, nearly tW jmt cent. lnrK<'r. (i.— They were handled dItTeiently? A.— Entirely. Of course the wune erew niijrht have been in the North I'ai'ifie. Of my own judpnent I niu certain I paid for them aH HelirinK Ht*a HkinH. ii. — WnH there any dilTerenee in tlie price? A. — Ych, Hir, in 1883, for instance, for 1U7 I paid fit) apiece on the h1'"p in that year. The averiifje coHt wan ;f5.8.'t. Q. — Did yon Imy all the HkinH that were 1)roiiKht in that year except tliin one or two? The ConimiHHioner leaHant, but I have forgotten what it was; I have not tax«'d mv memorv with it. Q. — You misunderstood me if you heard me say anything else than that you were an expert A. — I UHSure you I have forgotten the circumstance how it happened. The rommissioner on the part of tlie Ignited Btates: — I un- derstood, Mr. Luttbe, that you used the words "so-called Heli- ring Sea skins;" would you classify with the so-called Beh- ring Sea skins iiny skins taken outside of the Hea, just south of the Islands'' A. — South of the Aleutian Islands I would. Mr. Dickinson: — Whether caught on the const or not? A. — What is the use of repeating it? I have just made the 40 statement. The Commissioners rose at five o'clock. ?o 30 ii'ii"! Ootimissionera under the Oonvention of febrnary 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 23, 1896. At 10.30 a.m. tlie Commissioners took their seats. Theodore Lubbe — The examination of this witness was con- tinued from the previous sitting. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson continued: 60 Q. — Are you interested, Mr. Lubbe, in any of the cases be- fore the Commission? A. — No, sir; none whatever. Q. — You have no interest in the "Favourite?" A. — No, sir. Q. — Had you at the time of her warning? A. — No, sir. Q.— No inter.>st in her? A.— Well, what about the "Fa- vourite?" Q. — Did you ever have any interest in the "Favourite?" A. — Certainly. Mi 10 2D 30 40 SO 60 Q.— That is what I asked yon'! A.— No, yoi iMked ine if I had uiiy intt'i-i'Ht iii tli<> carn'M iiuw pending. ti.— Wlien did youi- intt-it-Hi in tiie " Favourite' ceaHe? A. — lOtli Uet«'Hib»r, 1884. Q.— You liavc had no interest in her since? A.— No, sir. Q.— Nor in tin- "Oaward?" A — No, sir. (i.— Did >oH ever liuve tiny interest in tlie "fJnward?" \. Yes, I liad. Q. — Wlien did tliat intereMl eea»e? A.— I think in eitlier 1883 or 1884, or it nn^lit !iiiv«' been in 1885 It was not later titan 18S3; it was in 188H, I (liin!:. I ean hunt it up in tliis book if you wisji me to. (J.— Could .voM tell U8 when your interest in the "Favour- ite" teaH( d? A.— Yes, on lOfli I)e(einl)er, 1884. Q.— And you did not need to look at your books to find that? A. — I 'ooked it up tliis inorniuK- Q. — And liow did you come to look it up when you ceased to have an interest in llie "Favourite?" A.— I looked up the iiisfory of the "Favourite" tliis niornini;, but not the "On- ward." Q.— Why did you look that up? A.— Hecause I exi)ected to l)e asked ai)out the "Favourite." (J.— And al)out your interest in her? A. — Yes, I was in- terested in six sdiooners. Q. — You had no interest in her or in her voyages after- wards? A. — No, I had not. Q. — Nor in her voyages? A. — Nor in her voyages; no, I had not. Q. — ^Vill you be kind enougli to sliow nie the entrv relat- ing to tlie IMM) skins in 188,'{? A.— It is here in this book. Q. — \Yas that entry made by you? A. — Made by me, sir. Q. — Will you be kind enough to rend it off so tliat tliere may be no mistake alout it? A. — It is as follows: 1883, October 13, ('ai)tain J. L. (.'arthcut to tlie Hank of British North America, ^foOO; then there is a note l>eneath winch says: "Part payment of purchase of 016 salted seals at f 10;"' then there is a little below: 'Bought from f'apt. J. L. f'arth- cut 916 salted seals at flit, .'jlO.160:" and immediately below that: "Captain ,'. L. Carthcut to the Bank of British North America, |8,66(»; one cheque, f.100, and another cheque for 18.360." Q. — Tliat is the original entry? A. — Yes. Q. — Now will you give ine the entry from 1882 from which you testitied? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — 1 want the original entry in your handwriting? A — I will give it to you. It is as follows: "1882. September 27tli. Bought ofCaptain J. L. Ca.tlicut 326 salted seals at IS, 112,608; paid cash f!2.000. bv two drafts each f 1,000, cash 120, cash 140, cash $^48; total,' f 2,608." Q.— Is that the entire entry? A.— Yes. Q. — Now you have given us the whole of the original en- tries you made in both cases? A.— From the day book; I have iots of correspondence relating to the skins in this book if you wish it. Q._Xever mind that. You were an expert at that time in seals? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Will vou be kind enough to tell us when before y:)ii had bought anv salted seals? A.— Ye^, sir. I bought some in 1883. I sliipped 6900 in 1883. Q._Were they salted? A.— Y''e8. Q. — Suited seals? A.— Yes, these were all salted. Q. — Plad you bought any seals prior to that time — you say that these were from Beliiing Sea— had you bought any salt- ed seals from Be bring Sea? A.— Yes, sir. ii ii! mn lO 3« 686 (TliL-odore Lul)be — Ki'cross.) Q. — WL^.t ship load had you bought from Bchring Sea prior to 1882? A.— I bought the "San Diego's" catoh in 1881. Q.— Any otlier ship? A.— \ot in 1881, I do not think— Oh, yes! I bouglit tlie schooner 'iluttandeau,'' but I cannot re- member tlie date widiout liunting it up in my boolis — I can- not tell withoul looUing. v^— Wlio did you buy tlie «()(»(» odd seals from? A.— Many different peopl". Q. — What ship? .\. — Many different sliips. Q. — You did not buy them from Indians? A. — No. many different vessels. Q. — Did you separate in the account the salted from the dried skins? A. — Of course. Q.— You bought GOftO salted? A— 1 bought that year (598.1 salted. Q. — ^Vere any of them from Reliring Sea? A. — 1 may be out on the schooner "Look Out;" I cannot place the "Look 20 Out" just now. Q.— Did you buy any others from the "San Diego" in 188.*?? A. — No. sir, with the exception nf a very few skins. Q. — Did you buy any that were sent down by the "San Diego" in 1883? A.— ^She sent none down in ^HHX Q. — .\re you positive of thai? .\.— Yes. She sent none down; 1 bought the entire catch; I saw the captain's book, he made it f)17 but it was only 010. Q. — Does anyone know wh<'r(> the caittain's book is? A. — T cannot tell yon. but T have seen the book. Q. — Do you know where it is? A. — No, T am very sorry I <'annot oblige you. Q. — It is not a matter for regret at all. A. — Why do you not ask questions fairlv? That book belongs to rai)+"in Parthcut. Q. — You testified as to thiit book and I wanted to know where it was; I think our auditors, fhe Commissioners, will nresent any house in Siiu Fran<'isco in the l)nrcliase of seals? \. — No. sir. Q. — There are i»urcliasers of seals in San Francisc**? A. — Oh, yes; lots of them; (juite a number. (i. — There is a large niarkel for the lurchase of seals? A. — Not at that time; none at all at that time. Q. — Fntil 188:{? .\.— Yes. Liebes & Co. owned several schooners. (.i. — I want you to answer fully, bei ause you might say that I was unfair if I did nol let you. Tell us about the maiket in San Francisco? .\. — There were a few schooners that sailed out of San Fi-ancisco. and Liebes & Co. owned several schooners. Q. — You were not a member of that company? \. — N(n sir. Q. — .\nd were nof its agent? .\. — No. sir. Q. — Now in your enlries you do not menliea" seals. I see? .\. — Oh, yes. Q. — Not in these entries to whi Indians on tlie coast. Tlu\v liavo trading posts on the coast and the tradei-s at tliese posts would buy from tlie Indians tlie sliins wliich they tooli a sliort distance oft" the beadi; tlie traders would then salt these skins; I think in some instances the Indians themselves pur- chased salt and salted tlw skins themselves. Q. — Did not the Indians dry the skins sometimes? A. — Yes. Q. — You bou};ht dried skins sometimes did you? A. — Yes. Q. — You distinguish(>d them from salted skins? A. — De- cidedly. Q. — Which were worth most the dry or the salted? A. — The salted skins. il. — And a n<'hnii}i Sea skin that was dried was worth how much less than a Uehring Sea skin that was salted? A. — We never received any dried Kehriiig Sea skins here. (2. — Well a coast skin that was dried was worth how much less than a coast skin that was salted? A. — The prices vary; the dried skins are not used for dressing and dyeing. (I. — (live us the ditferent jtrices? A. — It is all very tine? to say, but I cannot do it — the demand for salt«'d and drit'd skins is irr«'gular; the dried skins go to Russia to be worked out natural; they ar«> not for dressing and dyeing, and the ]»rices of the dri«'d skin has no relation whatever to the pince 30 of the salted skin. Q. — That is a matter for argument by the connsel, and. if you please, we will do the argument ourselves. Can you tell me the price of dried skins in tSS.*}? A. — I could by refer- ring to the book. Q. — You bo)ight a lot of them right along, and you must have some entry there in your liook. Cannot you tell us without so much trouble? A. — No. I cannot, I might buy a few skins for 1 dollar and a half and on the same day I might i)ay ^7 for them. It dejM'nds on th(> size. (i. — Well, take the fjeneral run of skins tlujt you paid SflO for in 1SS;{? A.— T did not pay iff 10 excei)t for'l?ehring Sea skins. (i- — Vor salted skins? A. — Yes, 1 ship])ed (!!)S;{ skins. i]. — Salted skins? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — <'an yon find out how many diied skins you shipped? A. — \ot in this book; if my invoice book was here I could tell you. (i. — >»<»w, ^Ir. Lubb(>. suppost t?iat you got a lot of dried ■ikins from the coast and a lot of salted skins — how much less would you i»ay for the dried than for the salted skins? A. — I told you befoi-e it is impossible to tell. The denmnd for both these is irregular. In one year (he dried skins are wortli nearly as much as the salted, .md .^(mie years they are not worth half. Q. — Now I an* going to find out from yon before we finish this examination what dried skins were worth on the coast? A. — I did not buy skins on the coast. (J. — The dried skins that are brought friun tli»> coast? A. — I could find out if I had my invoice book here; I could lell you exact figure for the entire shipment for one year, but not by this book. Q- — What I want to get at in tlH> fairest way is. what is your best knowledge of the value of dried as distinct from salted skins in ISS.'t? A.— I think I could get it in this book. Q — Well, try then. A. — This is only up to 4th November, <*<.'{, lind I -annot give the total from this book. (i.— I do not rare for the total, A,— That is the only fair ?o 60 I Sil 688 lO 20 40 50 60 ^Theodore Liibbe — Ri-cross.) comiMtriHon bet'iuise I have jjivcu .von the total Hliipincnt of Haltt'd soals. Q. — I tliink I caRuall.v noticed in that book entries as to .vonr purchases of otter skins and otlier skins for October? A. — Yes, tliere are sea otter skins entered here. Q. — Have ,vou any entry tliere as to what yon paid for dried seals dnrins the sam«^ season? A. — Yes, I suppose so. Q. — Well, just look and see. A. — For instance, here arc 23 dried seal, ?74.5(), on Sei)teniber 2i)th, 181).'?; it does not give anything: about the size. Q-— Well, what was the price? A.— 174.50 for the lot, or equal to j;?.25 a skin about. Q.— Did you in ISS.'l jmy more than f.1.2r» for dried skins? A. — If you will Rive me time I will hunt it up. Yes, cer- tainly I did. Q- — You did pay more? A. — Yes, certainly. Here on July ,1rd I see .T dried seal at 15 each; on 25th "julv i.T dried seal for fS.IO. Q.— Each? A.— No. sir; for the lot. On the same page I ulsn find 4.50 salted seal. ^11)77.50. Here is July 20th, ISv;!. 1!» dried seal, f5, and here is July lOtli 4 -ri ?' 's<'al flO for the lot; here is July 5th, l.T dried seal It;."" I' , the lot. Q. — Suppose you look a little tui-i ' •• a ( he October en- try and see if there are not otl">.- ilti iiiat? A. — Not likely until next spring. Q.— Did you look? A.— Well, it is not worth while look ing because the season is at an end in October; it would jio on until the following March. Q. — For the purchase of seals? .\. — Yes. sometimes a stray one may iiirive wln'ii the season is over. Q. — I'll ask you again so that we may understand it ; Whether you are familiar enough with the catch by il\e In diaus on the coast -ind the Fair Weather (Jroiiuds to know whether the Indians themselves salted skins prior to 1N><4? A. — I do not think so. (). — .\nd whatever skins that laiiie to you salted that were caught by the Indians on the coast were salted by traderts on the coast? A. — Yes, on the whole. Q. — Which were the best skins. Those thiit were salted at the tiin(> of the actual catch, or those that were caajr'.! 'ly hi dians and salted afterwards by tradeis? A. — The >' -il ;i!;iii8, of course, are thos(> that were taken on board the ■ 1 >s(>i. Q. — And immediately salted? A. — Yes. Q. — .\iid they conniiand the highest jirit" for h-.u ;c.is m'' A. — Yes. sir. (J. — You say that you could tell from your e.\ii!"inat. n "' the skins the sex of I lie seal? A. — I did not tell you that. Q. — 1 so nnd< rstood you and, if I did, I am mistaken? -\. — Well you iiiiisr mipiind'M'slood me. Q. — Did you not reply to Mr. T'eters that you could tell the cow seals? .\. — I could. Q. — At that time? .\.— Yes, I could; but I did not sort them according 10 se\. (J. — When seals were presented to you in 1888 you could tell whetlK r the seals were cow seals or male s nntumn, and had between 32fi and IWO seals; 20 I bought from her ^'M and a few — three or four — were sold to an ofTloer in the Customs Flouse. 1 think she had then some walrus iv()ry — that was in 1882. In these years she did not call here in the spring, she was an -American vessel and fitted in San Francisco, the Captain simply came here to sell his skins, thinking that the prices would be higher here tlian in California. Tn 18S.T the vessel again arrived here in the autumn and landed sidns; she had !)17 according to the cap- tain's book, but it only turned out to be 010, and nf» ivory. They had been aft<>r walrus, but they could not Und one. 30 Prom information I found ort from the cajitain I fitted out the "Mary Ellen" in 1883 to go in the summer of 1881 to the Behring Sea. Mr. Dickinson:— This probably ,is not material, but I want to be entirely fair with the witness, and let him answer. The Commissioner on the i)art of (Jreat Britain: — A good deal depends on what he understood. Mr. IN'ters:— The fact of his buying the catch in 1881, 1882 ''° and 1883 may be material. Mr. DickinsoM: — lie is going on with the "Mary Ellen." The Witness:— I am giving you a sluu't sketch of the seal- ing history. Mr. Dickinson: — It is veiy interesting. The Witness:— Th:iiik you. The fi>.c( tliat the "San Diego" caught iH(> or "UT in 188*3 caused the "Mary Ellen" to be tit- CQ (ed out in 1884. From information I got from the ca])taiu and the intelligent jiortion of his crew on board the "San Diego" in 1883 — Capl. Carllicnt was master, .\le.\ander ^Ic- lican was navigator. From information I got from the cap- tain and (he intelligent portion of his crew Mr. Dickinson: — Including Mr. McLean? The Witness- — Yes, both the Mcf-eans, certainly. Cap- tain Cartlicut he said he could get lieajts of navigators in Cali- fornia and to t;ike Diiniel McLean for the "Mary Ellen." and so I did. Q.— That is r'aptain .\h'xandi'r McLean? A. — No. Daniel Mr Islands, but I can- not fix the year; I was not on board, but I heard that after- wards. Q. — Where did the "Sun Diego" go from lure after she brought the seals? A. — San Francisco. Q. — ^And in 188.3 was the first season tliai she hiid been on an exclusively jwlagic sealing trip? A. — She was not ex- clusively sealinir. Q.^Well. witli walrus hnntinc? A. — She did not succeed in iretMim: walnis tluit year, I think, 0. — It was the first exclusive cargo of seals that came of pehipic sealinur to this ])ort? A.-^Yes, sir. O — ,\nd it w:'s iin experini< nt as it was the first one? A. — Xo, (lie experiment was made the tw(» preceding years. (.}. — Tlia( was an enterprise ffir walius hunting, and to kill some seals incidentally? A. — Y<'S, sir. Q. — I am talking about the first cargo that came back, wliere tlie voviige had hcvn devoted exclusively to ])elagic scaling, and that was in ISS.T? A.— Yes. Q. — It was il'.e first market for seals that year? A.— Eiglit years previous, the schooner "Signa." Mr. I>ickins(m; — Do not let us go into th'it now, because I iiin taking up your own hist(try of pelagic sealing in Behring 50 60 691 Sen. Yes. (Tlii'o. Lubbe — ('ross.) This was pmttlcally an cxiieriineut, was it not? A.- A. T she n on ; ex- cepd mio of ? A. s. to \i\\\ bacl{. lelagif A.— nnso T I'hriug 30 Q. — It started the market for that class of seals, isn't that so? A. — No, sir. Q. — Was that voyage followed immediately by the fitting out of other sealers? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — So that it was, so to speak, the pioneer hunting voy- 10 ng your mind at all if Mr. Moss were to say that on that 188.*? \oyage the "San Diego" cangnt 2,2(I0 skins? A. — I do not care what Moss says, Mr. Dickinson. Q. — You still stick to your statement that you did not go on (lie shijt to look at the catch? A. — I do not think I did. Q.^— You did not see Ihe seals until they came to deliver fio (liem to yon? A. — No, I would never do that if I had not suflllcient confidence in the captain. I would not wish to buy his skins at all. Q. — How long have voti been engaged in the business? A. —Since 1875. Q. — Where did you come here from? A. — Ni'w York. Q.— What was your business there? A.— 1 w.v buying furn and fravelliug in Montana and the Western States. uff'-''' I ■\\r liir 692 (Tlint, l.ubbc — C10S8.) A. — Mt'ssra. Miirtiu, Batvs, Juur, A.— Un 10 20 30 40 50 A.— 'Blnek Q. — For what eoin;t*i'u? & Co. Q. — How lonj? (lit! you contiiuu' in their employ? til m»w. Q. — You are si ill in tliei:- eniploynient ? A. — Yes, nir. Q. — And you have never been out of it? A. — It is a joint at-eount; for instance, profit and loss is divided. Q. — Now, were Messrs. MarHn. Mates & Co. interested with yon in the "Favourite?" ^Vas that a joint aeeonnt? A. No. that is outside 'utirely. Q. — Nor in aa.v of the other ships? A. — No. Q. — You wer.' interested in five or six? .\. — Six. Q. — Would you mind telliufi u»e what thev were? The "Favourite." "JIary Ellen." "Onward." "Kate." Diamond" and the '.Mfred Adams."' Q. — Were you not interested in sealinart of the T'nited States: — What do you mean by an ".Vmerican citizen?" The Witness:— The Cnited States. The Commisioner on the part of the T'nited States: — .\mert- a. You were a citizen of the United States of Amer- ica? The Witness: — Yes. sir. Cross-examination continued by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Are you now a citizen of the United States? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you '.nv»>st any oilier capital from the United States for sealers here? A. — No, sir. Q. — I would like to know when you sold your Interest in the "Onward?" Not what it was for, or anything: like that. 60 but just when rou sold it? A. — On .July 7th, 1884, as ap- jiears by this l;'d}jer and also by the Day book. Q. — Who was with you in owninp the "Favourite?" A.— Cai)tain Sjirinp ami Cajttain Peter Francis. Q. — Where is he? A. — They are both dead. Mr. Dickinson: — That is all I have to ask you this morninjj, and I hope you will acquit nu' of beinp; unfair. The Witness: — This morning you were very fair, 10 20 30 693 (Theo. I .ubbi'— Kc-diivct.) Ku-direct exaiuiuiitiuu by Mr. I'eteis: Q. — You W(>reuMk(!d by Mr. Ditkinsou to look at the original entry with regard to the oalch of 188:2 and 1883, and in that original entry tliere is uut'iing about there being Behriug Sea seals, or anything else. 1 want to know whether you have another entry that does show that? A. — Oh, yes. Q.~\Vliat is that? A.— On October 11th, 188.'{, I sent the following telegram to New York: "'Martin, Bates Jun. & Co., New York. "S^an Diego" arrived with 9ttO Alaskan seals. Q. — That telegram contains the statement that she had arrived with OHO Alaska or Itehring Sea seals? A. — Yes. Q. — Is there anv similar statement with regard to 1882? A. —Yes (i. — What doos that tell? A. — It is in my own cipher, and 1 will have to translate it. It is ,i telegram on 2i!nd Septem- ber, 1882, to Martin, Kates Jun. & Co., New York, and it says: "Bought :{26 Alaska seals at ?8 privately." Q. — You hav<' stat.'d that yan told y«»n? A. — Yes, sir, <-ertainly. Q. — And not .Mexander McL«'an? A. — Alexander McLeau was not navigator. Q. — You were asked questions as to Morris Moss, and as to whether, if he said there were 2,(l()(> skins taken by the "San Diego" in 188."?. you would change your mind and you said "No." \Vhat hiis become of .Mr. Morris ^loss? A. — I do not like to say anything about him, tlie man is dead now. Q.— Did he" die "here? A.— No. Q.— He lived here? A.— Yes. Q. — You were asked by Mr. Dickinson what made you look up the "Favonrite" today? A. — Yes. Q. — You looked it up because yon were asked to? A. — Yes. Mr. Dickinson: — Not by us. Mr. Peters: — By ine. 50 Re-direct examinaHon by Mr. Peters continued: Q. — It has been stated here that the "Favourite" was sold some time about 1881, 1885 and 1880. Do you happen to know as a fact what she was sold for? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What was it? Mr. Dickinson: — Well, we did not go into that, and the "Favourite" is not in the case. Ga The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Have you not closed \our ? Mr. Peters: — She was warned in 1880, that is the year that the claim arises out of. The (Commissioner on the jmrt of the United States: — Was she sold afterwards? Mr. Peters: — 1 do not know anything about sales after- wards. 60 Mr. Dickinson: — Then you should not make a statement in regard to what you do not know. Mr. Peters: — And we have nothing whatever to do with it afterwards. ■U The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I see the record says in McLean's evidence that there was a sale, but it does not say when she was sold. It implies, however, that she was sold in 1S86. lO 69s (Theo. Lubbi*— Rfdiri'ct.) The CouiniiHsioner on tlie part of the United States: — (To Witness: — Was ehe sold in 1886 witness? The Witness:— No, in 1883 and 1S84. The Coinmissionor on the part of the United States: — Did you have any inferest in her In 1886? The Witness: — No, sir. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Do you linow from your own personal knowledge whether she was sold in 1886, or not? The Witness: — I do not know. Mr. Peters: — There is another reason for which I shall ask this question. The CommisHioiier on the part of Her Majesty: — Is there 20 some doubt as to tlie date of this sale. Hy impression is tliat it rather looks as if jt took place in 1886. Mr. Peters: — My learned friend has asked this witness if he was interested us an American citizen in certain ships, and amongst others the "Favourite." The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — You are taking this evidence to contradict McLean? Mr. Peters : — I am taking this evidence in regard to new evi- ^o dence about the "Favourite" brought out by Mr. Dickinson. I never mentioned the "Favourite." The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Did Mr. Dickinson bring out anytliiug in the way of a sale from this witness? Mr. Peters: — He did not go into the question of sale, but he asked him whether he was interested in the "Favourite." 40 The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Did he ask what she sold for? Mr. Peters: — 1 propose now to ask this witness what she sold for, I submit that 1 have the riglit to ask that. Mr. Dickinson has ' .ought tliis matter up for only one purpose, and that was to try and prove by tl.H witness that he was interested in the catch of tlie "Favourite," the "Onward," and certain other ships, and I am going to ask him how he got rid of liis luterest. I Imve a pertect right to ask that. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Tlu'ie 50 is no objection to that, but 1 do object to your asking what slie was sold for in 188.'{. Air. Peters: — On what grounds does your Honour object? The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — On tlie ground tluit you are opening up the case again. The time is running away very fast. Mr. I'eters: — And I do not think that we are altogether re- sponsible for it running away very fast. We did not close our case on the (luestion of value, and, it is oimmi for us to show that he sold his interest in the "Favourite." Is there any reason why I shouldn't ask at what price — I have the right to ask that, even if it were only on the ground that I wanted to prove the bona fide getting rid of his interest. There is evidence put in here by the other side to show what Mclj«>an thought the price was. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — You are not entitled to go into details until the other side con- Ck> ^^ i ' i 'm I i i ip- 1 i! I ' - ; 'ii'lj'ii; 30 696 (TIm'O. liiiblH'— I{('«lii«'«t.) tt'Ht tli<> iirnii'iicy by eounm'l in iIIh- ]M)HinK of tliiH case. Mr. IVtei-H: — Kxailly. your llononr, we do not deny that. ,Q The ('onuniHHioner on tiie part of the I'nitid Stat(>s:^You liavc put in evidenee loverinn a broader ^ri-onnd tlian I ever knew before, tourliin^ tlie vahie of a veHHel 25 years old and 27 toiiH burden. For my part, I must protest apiinst your o]H'nin); tliat door apiin, and tliiis k>v>>ik t')*' other side* tin- rinht to p) into it to anv extent tliey ]dease. Wlien you are attacked as to tlie roimI failli of Mr. Lubbe in selling; his interest in ISS:;. then you have an undoubted ii>,'ht to rebut what (lie other side proves. Tlie witness was not tisked aboii the nale of his interest in the "Favourite," 20 ""d. so far as I am lonrerueil ([ am speaking on my own be- half), I think you are eniilled to ask the witnii^s when he solil his interest in the "Favouiite." and then stop. If my learned brother desiies anylhin;; more, of eoursi' he must have it. Mr. Peters: — With reference to the remark whieli your Honour made. I admit that the ('ommissioners have rif;hts as to the lentjth of time tliat should be oeiupied in this case. These riffhts. myself and my associate counsel, are fully i»re- jmretl to admit. We do not dispute them for a moment, ilowever. that may be, w«'. on behalf of (Sreat Hintain, claim tlu' vifihi to present to the Commission the claims of the dif- ferent claimants in the manner whiili we think is ri^ht, and we are aware that it is true that this may take some time. Hut we will see that it shall be done as i]uickly as jtossible. com- mensurate with our layin}! before this Commission every de- tail which >ve may ciuisider important in the case. X<» doubt it may take some time. Yoar Honour will remember that it has taken ten years for the two governments to prepare a means wherelty these claims should be tried, and, if it has taken all that delay — la delay with which the claimants could have nothing; whatever to do) surely they have a rifjlit to jiresent their claims as their counsel think proper. It is not our fault if it takes time to incsent these claims. A matter of this kind cannot be prejiared in a moment, and while on our part, we do not dispute the rijj;ht of the roin- missioners to shorten these proceedinj?s, we, on behalf of the claimants, contend that we have a rifjlit to present this ease to this Commission, with whatever evidence we may think material. Your Honour, we ]»ro])ose to do that. The Commissioner on the part of the Inited States: — I havi' no doubt that you will be ^(raiited all possible rights in that direction by the Commissioners, and I think that yiai can say that uj) to the present they have ^jranted it to you. Mr. I'eters: — I have made no comjdaint The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: There is no (|uestion on my jiart as to the entire jrood faith of coun- sel, and there is no (pustion about the industry of counsel. There is no ijuestion as to tlu ditlicnlties which surround the counsel on both sides. Thoujili c(-unsel may proceed with the utmost ^ood faith and utmost dilijience they need at times to be checked by the Court. My remarks were made for the purpose of justifying my attitucfe in objecting to your re-openinp; the matter, when, perhaps, under other circum- stances, I would not hesitate, so far is I am concerned, in permittin}; you to re open. That is al! there was to the mat- 40 SO 60 697 lo (TIh'o. Iiiil>l>(--U«'(lir»'c1.) tor, niul tlu'i'o was n<»tliiiiK wIiiiIcm r pt'iHoiiiil. On tlio other liaiul, I (liiiik that yon iniiHt hcc — not only from what I have Haid, hnt from my |HTHonal condurt towanln the conuBfl — tinit I hav*' tht' hi)j;hiMt rcpird for connm'l on each Hide and have the lii^licHt rcHiM'ct for tlicir «'nd('avorH to phire thiH (-aM<> h«'for<> tli*> <'oniiniHHion«M'H in an honorablr, cfticicnt and thorough manner. NovcrtliclfHH, then* in th»> fact which ap- plit'H to all counncl, that th"r(> ar«> tiincH when the bcHt of I onn8(>l need to be cliecke.l by the t.'onrt, and to be reminded that in their zeal tiny are taking »!• the time of the Tourt ups the court to interfere and chedc counsel, but I also fjH'l that when t ounsel is checked in the course he is taking, if he is satistled he is right, then he is right to pursue the course he has ado]>ted. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — No ^° doubt about that. Mr. Peters: — And if I am allowed a few words of explana- tion, I think I can show the court that 1 am right in pursuing my present course. The ground 1 take is this: In the ex- amination of Alexander McLean, who was a witness brought by the other side, and greatly relied upon by them, lu> makes «-ertain statements of fact — among others — he says t)Hsel. If T could get this evidence in for no otlier purpose I could get it in, because of that very cross examination. The Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — Do I un- 20 derstand then that Mr. Warren, as speaking for tlie American counsel, does not object. Mr. Warren: — He has stated that McLean was interested in the boat, at the time of the sales, which this witness has spoken of. My understanding is that McLean was not inter- ested at the time. I did not ask my learned friend to put any question on the record. The Commissioner on the part of the TTnited States: — I un- derstand, Mr. Peters, that you offer this testimony to show, 30 that this witness, in response to a question put by Mr. Dick- inson, had parted with his interest ' *he vessel. 40 SO Mr. Peters: — Certainly, and I hu iglit to show that. 60 The Commissioner on the part 01 tlie Ignited States: — I think there is an objection to your going into these details. Mr. Peters: — Suppose 1 merely ask, as to the value of the ships. Can I do that? The Commissioner on the part of the United States- — If Judge King thinks it ought to go in let it go in. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — Could not the cross-examination of McLean in his evidence at page 4finite, but I cannot find it in the notes now. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I see tliat McLeai; is in court now. There can be no objection, I should think, tv calling him and asking him what was the time of the sale which liis evidence relates to. He could be asked what S!iL^ he referred to. There is nothing on record as to the date, but the impression on my mind is tliat it referred to the sale of the "Favourite" in 1880. However, as has been pointed out, it is not clear. Mr. Peters:-^! do not remember his being asked that ques- tion. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I should think that that is Ihe proper way to proceed. Mr. DickinsoH: — Your Lordships' I have not said much on this matter, but I want to know now whore we are getting to. We have been through the examination in chief of this wit- ness, 1 have cross-examined him fully on the examination in chief. Now, if my learned friend, Mr. Peters, desires to call the witness in further rebuttal, that is a claim that he can to 20 iO 40 1O ro 6y9 (Tluo. LiibiM'— Rcdiifct.) liiiikf, but it Im certainly not eoni|H>tfnt to c-roMt-cxainint', or ratlMT i'v-fX!i'i>iiu' liini on a niattt'i' on which I did not touch in crosst'xaniination. Th«* (JonnniHKioncr on the part of Her Majesty: — My im- preHHion as to tlie Heeond |;round taiien by Mr. I'eters in that merely be«-auHe Mr. Dirkinmin asked as to the transfer, it did not necessarily o|H'n up nil the particulars for crossexaininn- tion. Mr. Dickinson: — I did not certainly ask as to the transfer even. I asked liini to show iiis interest in these cases under the consideration of the court. He might b«' influenced con- sciously or unconsciously by Iiis interest in the case; I asked him if he were interested in any of these cases. He said "No." 1 then nsk<>d the witness as to his interest In the "Favourite" and the 'Onward," and he said it ended in 1883 and 1884, and tliere I closed it, and I did not ask liim about any of the details of the transaction. The primary object of the interrogation was to ascertain whether he had an interest In the vessel at the time he was testifying to or at the time of the seizure. Tie disclosed that he had not. The Commissioner on the pflrt of Her Majesty: — I am in- clined to agree with yon about that. Mr. Dickinson. — Now in the "Favourite" case, if my learn ed friend wishi's he may rebut, we have not gone into the (juestion of the (;■ od faith of the transfers at all. The romniissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I am in- clined to agree with y<»u there. If it were clear from Mr. Mc- Lean's evidence that he referred to a certain sale of the "Fa- vourite," in 18S0, I should not think that this would be re- buttal evidence at all. I think that Mr. McLean might be ex- amined as to when the sale to which he referred took place. If Mr. Peters can show that Mr. McLean had knowledge of other sales he might go into that question. Mr. Peters: — As a matter of fact there was no sale in 188K. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — If Mr. Pet- ers says that lie can show that there was no sale in 1880, then we might adopt another course — that is, by proving the sale in 1884, and then proving by another witness that there was no other sale. Mr. Dickinson: — I do not see how tliere can be any ambigu- ity in Mr. McLean's testimony. We were on the question ol valuation: he was asked about the "Favourite" and he was asked how old she was in 1880 and then the question canu' "Do you remember wliat she was sold for?" and the answer was:'"Hhe sold for |;{,0()i»." Then the question was put, "With her rigging?" and the answer was "Yes, sir." Then the question was put. "E(iuipi»ed for sea?" and the answer, "Just as she came from the sea." The cross-examination dis- closes that he i.s asked about that and he says that was the value, or adjustiflcation of the partnership made by tlie part- ners in 1880. Tl'ere cannot be any doubt that his testimony bears on the year 188C. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I suppose that it would be rebuttal to that, if the other side could prove that there was no sale in 1880, and that the only sale of which Mr. McLean could have knowledge was in 1885. or some other year before that. It seems to me that my impression is that he was sjieaking of a sale that took place in 1880. Mr. Dickinson: — Uiidoubtedly, that is what the evidence was put in for. !:| i ! km in illt'li ;oo (Tli.'o. l.nbhi'— K«-(lii-(Mt.) The CoiimiiHHioiu'r on tlu' part of Hor Mjijcsty: I siigg«'Ht- «'d one wa.v of iiuvfiii},' tlic ditticiiU.v. Anotlicr way would be, if Mr. IVtcrs could prove that iliei-e was no sale of tli(; "Pavouiite" in 1SS(», then you open yoiiiself to prove that there wuh a sale of whicli McLean must have knowledge in !88a, 18S4 or 1S85, and then you could show what th(> vessel was sold for. Either of tlu'se ways it seems to me would b( lo a fair way of apj)roaching the matter. Mr. Peters:— Mr. IMckinson states that McLean refers to a sale in 188G. Mr. Dickinson:— There is no cpiestion that that is the valua- tion referred to between the parties, that was in 188«, and that is the poinf Ti) which McLean's attention was directed in this testimony. Mr. I'eti'rs: — There was no sale in 188(». It was simply an 20 arrangement b.'tweeii two partners, and I will prove that. M.. Dickinson: — That is already in testimony in McLean'.^ evidt'iice. Mr. Peters:- With regard to this particular evidence which was referred to just now — as a matter of fact I had a note made, to examine Mr. Lubbe on it in direct examination, but by some ommission I forgot to ask him about the sale of the "Favourite." Had it not been (hat Mr. Dickinson brought it up I would not have icmembered it. This morning I remeni- 30 i)ered the matter and got the books looked up to see what tli" sale actually was. I cannot see what obj«'ction there can be \o this evidence — especially when it is evid«'nce that is applic- able to all the cases. The Conimissioner on the part of the TTnited State's: — I want to understand your precise position: You wish to otft r this evidence now on exactly the same line as in your open- ing case, as bearing on the value of vessels, including the "Carolena?" Mr. Peters: — Your Honour is not under the impression, I liope. that we have stopped giving evidence as to the value of the vessels; we believe wt gave sufticient evidence in the "C'andena'' case ai)pli«able to that particular case. \Ve have been stojtped giving evidence as to the value of vessels in dis- pute, and I do not say that we were unfairly stopped. As a nmtter of fact, when that evidence comes up it will be most material evidence. The rommissioner on the i>art of the United Slates:— This ' is ont> of the vessels in dis])ute. Why do not yon I'eserve your evidence according to the uiideistanding until the case is taken uj*. I do not in the slightest degree care how this thing is done, provided we can see the end of it some time or other. Mr. Peters: — 1 thought a little while ago that ,vour Hon- our did care a good deal how it was done. The Commissiouei' on the i>art of (he I'nited States: — Do ^o you wish the evidence about all the vessels in dispute to g<» into his case? Mr. Peters: — If your H. boujfht the "favourite"' for !i!4.r)t)(». (2.— That is (he totaf? A.— Yes, (54 shares. ii. — These entries are in your books? A. — In Sprin}f & Co.'s books which i kejit al'the time. (i.— Those entries are in your l)ooks? A. — Those are Spriufj & Company's boctks. Q. — Would that be aflei- slie was in from the Sea? A. — She was naked. (i. — Now. you were asked ab(Mit some other vessels you had an interest in. You stated, did you not, that you had no in- terest in any of the claims? A. — \o, sir, I have not. i}. — .\t all ex'uts, you have no intert'st in any of the claims? A. — No. l{e-cross examination by Mr. Dickinson: (.i. — I would like (o have you ti'll us what you mean by naked? .\. — I mean tliere was no outfit on boaid of her. (i. — Do you mean sealinn outfit? A. — I mean not fltte<1 lo }jo to sea. (i. — Sh(> had her iiv^tinfj. I suj)pose? A. — t'ertainlv. Q.— Sails? A.- Yes. (^ — Uojtes? A — ♦ "ertainly. Q. — .\nchors? A. — I suppose so, she was com|)lele. Q. — riiains? A. — T suppose so. I didn't see her. (i.— Stern boat? .\. — I don't know anytiiintr about that. th, r)7; 10th, i;M; 18tli, 0!); l.-jth, 14; total. 681. Jnlv 7. 5G, lat. 55:44 N., long.. Ifi8:10 \V.; 8th, 3\), lat. 55:44; l()th,"2:{, lat. 55:44; 14th. .'18, lat. 54:40, long. I(i8:.'{0 W.; 15th, 81, lat. 54::{(!, hmg. 10)8:40; 18th, 288, lat. 55:14, long. 170 W.; 10th, 18.5, lat. i)5:i:{, long. 1H)M W.; 20th, fi4, lat. 55:2.5, hmg. 170:18 W.; 20lh. 250. lat. 55:20, hmg. 1(>!) W.; 27th, 12fi, lat. .55:1(;. long. 1(>0:«» W.; 28th, 74, lat. 54:58, long. 1(J0:42 W.; total for that month, 12.'{;i. August .5th, 41, lat. .55:.3:?. long. IfiO W.; 8th, 107, lat. 55:24. long. 170:58 W.: 12th. 28, lat. 55— long. 170:.50 W.; i:$th, 98. hH. long. 170-.50; 11th. 200. lat. .55::?8. long. 171:20; 20th. 5, lat. -hi long. 171:20; total, .560. coast catch. .■;-> 60 Of the 248;{, (581 was the Q. — The above constitutes the daily latitude and longi- tude? .\. — No, I think tliere aiv two days on which the longitude is not given, otherwise every day. Q. — Those days are what? A. — Fr()m the 7th of July to the 20th of Atigust, inclusive. And include only the dates upon which catches were mad' . The two days when the longitude is not given are tin 8th and 10th of July. ('ross-exainiuiition by ^.Ir. I)ith of July, I think.' Q. — I want to know the date you went out; how long did you flsh there? A. — I don't know the date. The ship's books are lost and the log book also. Q. — Yon were there all of Julv, at all events? A. — About 50 all of July. Q. — How many seals did you catch? The CommiRsioner on the part of the I'liitcd States: — I thought the underKtanding was that you would not go into these cases that are in controversy? Mr. Peters: — The question of catch, no matter whether in controverNV or not, is mateilal in regard to (»ther 8hii)s, espec- ially for the year ISSO. The year 18S9 stands differently from any other year, because the seiziiies took place at very 00 different periods from the early part of July. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — I do not know that we have any control over counsel in the mat- ter. I .simply said I thought that was the understanding. Mr. Dickinson: — We have had a conference in regard to that, and my friend Mr. Peters says he will produce the wit- ness later for cross examination, } ?! U]' "I '.y 111' : :iiH|iiii II 704 (S. W. liiK'kuam — Direct — Cross.) .Mr. Peters: — This evidence will not be repeated, only be given oi'ce. Direct examination coniinned hy Mr. I'eters: It will 10 20 30 Q. — Now then, do you remember your catch, Captain Buck- nani? A. — I think it was 844 in Behring Sea. (i. — What tounape was the "Ariel?" A. — Ninety-one tons. The Commissioner on the part of Iler Majesty: — The boats; he said six, I think? Q. — How many canoes did you say you had? A. — She had a white crew in lS8f(; six boats. Q. — And a stem boat? A. — No stern boat. Q. — Six hunting boats? A. — Six hunting boats. Cross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q — You did not state that you went out during the month of July, did you? A.— I said I was ordered out on the 30th of July. (Question read by reporter.) A.— No. Q- — You do 'lot claim liiat you went out when you were wiuned out, do you? A. — No. Q. — Now you lost a boat right after you were warned out, did you not? A. — Yes. Q.— How lonj: did you look for that boat? A.— I think about a week n ten da vs. Q. — It wa.s longer than ten days, was it not? A. — I do not remember. Q. — You tooK seals all the time you were looking for it, did you not? A. — Some of the time. Q. — You took 444 while you were looking for it, did vou not? A.— About that, yes. Q. — Now just I'emomber, Captain Bucknam. the best you can, how many days yo)i were in the sea after you were warned? You said ten. Now it was more than ten, was it not? A. — T couldn't say how many dii-s. It might have 40 been a couple of weeks or thereabouts. Q. — Now you liave got up to fourteen days, do you think it was more than fourteen? A. — Well, I have lost the record; I do not know how long it was. Q. — That is the reason I want your best recollection, be cause you have lost your record. You stated it to be ten or fourteen days; now was it not more than fourteen? A. — It may have been. I got about 400 seals .'ifter I was ordered out. (i. — You know what day you went out of Behring Sea, do S^ you not? A. — No, I do not. Q.— Was it not the 21st of August? A.— I don't know that. Q. — Did you not make an affidavit once that you went out of Behring Sea on (lie 21st of .\ugust? A. — Yes, in making up the claim I suppose I would. Q. — Do you suppose you would jtut in the 21st of Augusr as the date un!;ss thai was right? A. — I tried to have that right. Q. — What is your recollection about it now then? Was it the 21st of August when you went out of the sea or earlier? A. — I mad<' tha." statement six or seven years ago. I have foi'gotten. Q. — I am asking about your recollection when you went out of the sea? A. — I haven't the slightest recollection about it. Q. — How many skins did you have when you were warned? A. — Somewhere about 440, I think, 00 70S (H. W. ItiK-kiiaiii — Cioss.) Q.— Voii had 40(», had yon iiof? A.— 400. Q. — And afli'i- .voii were warnt'd out .vid .vou Jind that boat you wimv looking; all those days lo for 40 -Xo, I didn't find it. Q. — l>id you ever hear of tlie boat afterwards? -I did. -I liad the boats out Q.— Where did tlie boat land? .\.— Aboard of an Indian sehooner jioinp; to Ncah Kay. Q. — At what time did she get aboard the schooner? A. — The ne,\v day after she was lost from us. Q. — \ow. you do not claim to have looked for that boat 21 days, do yon? A. — We cruised about making inquiries (2- — The facr is. you vent sealiufi for twenty-one days? .\.— Not on tlh' sealing ^troiind proju'r. 20 Q. — Vou seal 'th day of November, 30 I SS)(. and I suppose your recolleeti<»u of when you left the Bea would be fresher at that tinu' than it is now? A. — Yes. sii. (i. — Did you state in that affidavit that on the 21st day of .Vupust tln» ".Vriel" sailed out of Kehring Sea homewan' bound with 844 sealskins on board? A. — (Examining)-- Ves. Q.— So that the "Ariel" was in IJeliring Sea until the 21st day of Augiist, was she, that year" A. — Yes. Q. — You remember that now. having thus refreshed your recollection? .\. — Yes. Q.— And that is correct? A.— It is. Q. — That was the first yar the ''.Kriel'' was cmt, was it no(? .\. — Yes, sir. <2. — .\nd you never had any experience in IJehring Sea be- fore that year? .\. — No, sir. (J. — That was the (irst time you weie ever in the sea? A. — Y(»s. Q. — .\nd had vou ever been sealing anywhere else before Ihat year? A.— No. (J — That Win vour first experience in sealing anywhere? ^ .\.— It was. Q. — And yon took S44 skins with six boats? .\. — Ves. Q. — And besid«'s tliat you took S41 on the coast, did you not? A.— 159") was th< 'total T got for the season. I believe. (i.— Vou refcred lo a book when vou gave that answer, where did you get those figures from"' .\. — I liav( a kind of passbook I 'lad titoard of the vessel at oiu' tinu' for that year; aciouiits 1 luiv kejtt with Ihe hunters (). — .MI your books were not lost I'len for that year? .\. '''O —No; tliese ar.- iillh liiind IxxrUs I have. Q.— Hut Ihey ccmtain an account of your catch. T suppose, in (he sea. do they not? .\.— They are what the hunters caught from day to day. ti-— .Vnd I supjiose (he last day (he liunlers caught any seals would appear in Ihat book? A.— I guess i( would. (i.- .\nd when did you last look at (hat book? A. — Yes- lerdav. 45 ' |!f|f » 1 , t ; K::-i;il: 7c6 (S. \V. Uiickiiiuii — (-'io«s.) (i. — And wlicn you took the stand here today, Mr. Buck- nam, did .von not know that you wont >out of the sea on tlie Ulst day of Au};uHt because you had refreslied 3-our recollec- tion front that hook? A. — 1 did not. It n«'ver occurred to nie to think of it. Q. — The "Ariel" wiis in Behrinjj Sea in 1890, was she not? A,— Yes. IQ Q. — Had twelve canoes that year, had she not? A. — I jtuess she would have that many. I do not know. Q. — I do not want any information about it unless you have some niemorj- as to it. A. — I have no memory. Q. — Have you any books from which you could refresh your recollection abou( the year ISOO, or were they all lost? A. — No, I have a pass-book if you van make anythin;; froni it, that the captain of the schooner left with me. Q. — Were you in the sea .yourself in 1800? A. — No. Q. — You do not know what time the "Ariel" left the sea 20 in 1890? A.— No. Q. — Will you bring us the books referred to? A. — I will. The Comnussioner9) took recess until 2.30. ''If'!':! 40 30 At 2:.'?0 p.m. the Commissioners resumed their seats. Cross-examinatiim of ('aptain Kucknam resumed by Mr. Warren: Q. — Captain Bucknam, you have ijroduced here the book fo which you refer as containing; the account with the various hunters aboard the "Ariel"' in the vear 1889, have .vou? A.— Yes. Q. — And it is the book which I have In my hand? A.— Y's. Q. — And by a reference to that book you will be able to state now that the "Ariel" left the sea on the iilst of Augusf that .vear? A. — I don't know whether 1 can. I will have to look and see (examiniiint. It looks like .Viifjust ISth. Q. — You stated in the affidavit which .vou identified this morning as being a cojiy of tiu> original allidavit that yon did leave on the 21st of .Vugust. and that affidavit was made in the fall of 1889? A.— That would be the last sealing day. ii. — So vou state now August? A. — That was lieve it to be right. Q. — Do you wish to change in any way the number of seals that ,vou took in the .vear 1SS!), or b.v reference t(» this book do you still beli<>ve the number fo be 844? A.— f believe tiie number to be right. Q. — And those seals were all taken in llehring Sea, were the.v? A. — Yes, excej>ting one or two fiMin Sand Point up. (}. — rraetically all of them were taken in (he Sea? .\.-- 60 Yes. Q.— The "Ariel" was in Uelirlng Sea In 1890? A.— Yes. (.1. — And will you tell the Commissioners how many skin.-* the "Ariel" took in the year 189' . and what her e(|uipment was? A. — Ui'V catch in Behring Sea would be 1,i;{0 to the best of my knowledge. Q.— In "the year 1890? .\.— In the yejir 1890. (i. — Mow manv canoes or boats did vou have in the vear 1890? A.— I should say U, 50 that .vou did leave J/ (S. W. HiickiiiUi— Cross.) Q. — Foiirti'cn wliicli? A. — Ciiiun's. Q. — And two Indians for cacli ciuiot', tliat would b«' 28, lO 20 30 10 50 60 and what crew Ix sitlc tlio Indians did you carry? A. — That voar slit' had captain, mate, navijiator, cook and boy in addi- tion. Q. — No sea nii-n? A. — IVrhajJS two sea men. Q. — Tliat makes seven in addition to the 28 Indians, making .1.5 men aboard the boat? A. — That would be somewheres near right. Q. — You were not warned out in the yenr 1S90, were you? A. — No, I was not in a vessel in 1S90. Q. — The vessel was not warned out? A. — The vessel was not warned out. Q. — You were a part owner of (he "Ariel" in the year 1S8!»'' A. — I was j)art owner. Q. — Owned one-third? A. — One-fourth. (2. — Who owned the remainiuf; shiires in the "Ariel''? A. — John M .Taylor, of t^t. Jidm, New Brunswick, and Boiler M. Lawrence. Q. — They owned three-fourths between them? A. — 'Yes. (i. — I want to ask you one (luestion alxuil the search for that boat. Vou do not mean to have ns uuderstanti, Taptain. that you looked for the boat constantly from the .3flth July, the dav on which von claim to have been warned, until the 21st of August? A.— Not at all. Q. — The fact is you looked for the boat «me or two days after the day that you were warned, and then you went seal- ing? A. — We looked until we discovered where she was. Q. — You told me this morning that she was taken aboard another vesst'l which belonged to some Indians fr(»m Neah Bay, the day after she was lost? A. — \es. Q. — So that w(mld make the time spent searching for the? boat one or two days? A. — No, not at all. Q. — You did not ascertain that within one or two days? A. — We didn't ascertain that for jM'rhaps ten days afterward. We never saw that vessel afterwards; from a ditlerent source. Q. — But before you asceitained that fact yon had taken seals? A. — I expect we had. Q. — So that you did not six-iuT tlie entire ten days looking for the boat, yon wen> sealing in (he interim? A. — While we were looking for the boat we ran up to every schooner we saw. Q. — Were you sealing during (hese ten days at all? A. — I presume we were sealing every good day, I don't kiutw. i}. — And yon. were sealing every good day U]) to (he (ime you left the Sea. were you not. Cajitain? .\. — Yes. Q. — There was nothing taken off (he ".\riel'' l>y the olficers of the cutter that warned you? \. — No. ii. — Nothing removed from your ship? A. — No, sir. Q. — You liad white hunteiv (hat year? A. — White hunt- ers. Q. — And they had guns? \. — We had one canoe, two In- dians. Q.— But they all had guns? A.— All had guns. Q. — You had six boats? A. — We had six boats, one canoe, and in lookiiig over the book I ))elieve we had a stern boat. Q. — So that what yon said this morning about having six boats and one being lost, is not exactly correct. Tin? fact is ytm had six boa;s and a canoe and the canoe was lost? .\. — No, the boat was lost. I was speaking from memory then, but I see on looking at the book we must have had a s(ern boat and a canoe. Q. — So that you h.id seven boats inclnding this stern boat and canoe? A. — Yes I-' (;■ fjS ^^^H 'J ■SBBt' ■ i. t ^ '\'\\'\- 'I ■[] •IHI'T ■ I IS' lO 20 708 (S. \\'. lt\u-kiiaiii — (*ro8s.) (^. — And which mic of the lM»a(8 wtis hist, the kUtii Itont or one of the luiiitinjj hoiitw? A.— Oiii- of th«> hnntiiiK houtn. (i. — Did you ever insilvc ii icjiorl to llic custoin house litTc in Vicloiia tliat .vou tool; 1.4(>(t slvins in Itclirinc Sea in tlio .veai- 1SS!»? A.— No. il. — Did llic "Ariel" ever liave I.-IOO sliins wlien slie eanie into port in 1SH<>? A.— No. Q. — S!ie liad just I lie St4, or a|iproxinuitely tiial nnnilier? A.— About lliat. {}. — Did ,vou nialie a report to llie cnsloni liou.«e aullioiities in that year of your catcli? A. — I tliinlv not, we were not asked to, it wasn't <'onipulsory as it is now. (}. — The tonuajie of I lie "Ariel" was !tO and yon had six boiits? A. — Yes. Q.— And yon had 22 men? A.— In 188J»? Q. — Yes. A. — Twenty-two men . Q. — Hut yon did not take 1,400 skins in Helirin}; Sea? A. —No. Q. — Have you any record of yonr Beliriufi Sea catch in 1889 such as yon showed me for the year 1S!I0?A. — No, I haven't. (}.— Have yon the lof; of the "Ariel" for the year 1SS!>? A. — N"o, I have a kind of rouph diarv. Q.— Where is that? Mr. Peters: — I do not want to interrupt my learned friend. AVe called this witness simjtly for (he jturiiose of iirovinii the catch generally for the year 18S'f). AVe did not i>ropose to ffo into the facts in the case of the "Ariel." I would suiJiftest 30 that as we intend to hrinji this witness back ajiain. as to tlfo actual facts in the case, it micht be advisable not to {jo too fully into tliose facts now, that is to say whether they went out and were warned and nil that business. We will liave the witness for the jinrjiose of }r4.r)(i noith latitude, about that position as near as I can recollect. Q. — Did you say when you went in the Sea? A. — On the 7th of July, I think. Q. — About what was your catch? A. — Well, for the whole season mv catcii was 281(> skins, that is coast and BeliriuK Sea. (i.— About what was tlie Rehrinj; Sea catch? A.— 1812 was my Hehriufj; Sea catch. Q. — What sort of weather had you when you left? A.— On the ISth of Aufjust 1 };ot 84 skins, which was as near as I can remember. Q.— ? A —On the schooner "Juanita." Q. — Can you jjive us the catch of the vessel in 181)0? A.— Yes. sir. I think I can: I rememl'cr it well, because 1 was on fjo the lav that year and that is the way it is impressed \\\mi my mind. Q.— What was it? A.— 1:!81 including the whole catcli. Q._Wl,nt WIS it iu the Sea? A— 1141. Q.—How nuuiy boats had you or canoes? A —Nine canoes. Q._ll(,w many hunters? A.— Eifthteeu. Q_-\Vhere w«>re v«u sealing:? A.— In Hehriufj Sea. Q._What i»aH? A.— Well, 1 was huntinfr around in 1*0 west and ."(."1 north. 40 50 3° 4° r.o (L. ONt'ii— I >ii«Mt— < "roHH.) Q.— Wlicn did you go into llie Siji? A.— M.v lliHt milinK du.v WUH the 12tli of Jul.v; I doiit iviiU'iiibtT tlu' diiy that I futert'd llu' I'uhh; f ciin'l rfinciuber. Q.— When did .voii li-avc tiif Ht-a? A.— The wioud of Sep- 1 ember. Q- — Whaf was your poKition on (he 8lii|»? A. — Master. Q.— Wliat Noit of wealiier had you in iHiK)? A.— Well, ,o .Fuly was very fair; well, in tlu' latter end of it. In the latter «nd of AugUHl, in faet the whole of Anttust was pretty fair, but the seals were kind of scarce at the time. Q. — Vou cannot «ive us the lowering days? A. — I can't ftive the daily catch; no, sir. CrusH-exaniination by Mr. Lansing : (i.— Did you keep any log books? A.— Kept them at the time. Q. — llavt* you got Ihem now? A. — No, sir. Q. — Do you know where they are? A. — 1 don't know. 20 (i.— When did y miles outside of Sand Toint — Shumigan Islands. Q. — To what boat did you transfer them? .\. — The schoon- er "Wanderer." Q.— In 18!)() (lid you transfer them? A.— I transferred them in N«»rtheast harbor to the "Mischief." Q. — Did you do any sealing after transferring your skins before entering the Sea? A. — No, sir, we had a gale of wind after leaving there which took us into Hehring Sea. Q. — In lS8!t, did you do any sealing before you enter«'d the Sea? A. — Not after leaving Sand Point, no, sir. ^ WTT TT1 mm''' 111, , Hi ifi m '''h'' lO 20 -12 ( ].. ( Hhcii — < 'roMM — l{f (liiccl.) (j. — ]i\i\ voii iiiiik(> II ri>pnrt iiii riMiirniii^ li*-ri> fo (In- Ciih- toiii Imiim' of tlu." HkiiiH? A. — Not tliiit I rciiit'nilM'r, it wiimu'I iiiNtoniiir.v for iih to du ho tli<>ii. Q._I)i,l von do it? A.— No, Hir. I don't think 1 did, I nni not Hiiri*. Q. — Now. Ciiptiiin, do von know tliat tlic riitcli in Mi'lirinj; Hvtt wiiH l,? A.— To ni.v niciiioi'.v i( was l.Slli. i^ — How do you refresh your ineniorv? A. — Ity the niiiii thnt kejtt tally on ni\ return. ii. — Wlio was tliat? A.— .Mr. l.oj;an. Q.— What \h his tlrsi name? A. — I don't know Iiis lirsl name. (i.— IHd lie work for Mr. Moss'/ .\.— He was hired at tlial speeiiil time for to take the tally of the skins. Q. — Has he >;ot that tally now? .\. — I think he must have. I am not sure whether he has at ])resent. (2. — l»id Mr. I^oijan tell y within the last few days? A - Well. I s|ioke to him coiK-ernin); it. Iiut at that liiiie he didn't hav(> his Itook. He has hunted it np since and 1 wiis eonvers in^ with him ab(Mit it. I think I was a few skins out in the • onnt III the time and he eorrected it. Of course he hail il there from the time he took the tallv (»f the skins and theiv was 1.812. Q. — If yiui had not refreshed your recollection in that way. would you have been able to say how liirne the catch was of the "W. 1'. Saywiird" in ISMIt? .\.— For the full season. I 30 could, bnt not particularly for Kelirinf; Sea alone. Q. — Now. if vou made a return to tlie custom house of the "W. P. Snywnrd" in l.SS{>, of l.«!4.'{ skins for I'dirinp Sea. would that be correct? A.— Not that I can nnuii lier. il — Would it be correct if y(tu did m.'ike sn '• atement? A. — I d«m"t think so, not according to the tally. Q. — The ".luanita,' how did you refresh youi' ec<»lh'ction as to lier in 18!>0? A. — I had spoken it over so often wit'ii my friends, tluit is tlu' icascm my mind is impressed with it with my full catch of the year. ii. — You can remember the full catch .very well'' A. — Yes, Kir. Q. — How do you fix the Hehrinir Sea catch? A. — Because I remember each time I landed my okius. Q. — Have you talked with anybody aliout that to refresh your recollecti(m? .\. — Yes. in the first of the ('ommi.4sion sittiufr here I went to Mr. Hull and he produced the book for thnt year. H- — ('<»uld you testify to the numl)er wiihout refresliiiifr your recollection from Mr. Hall's book? .\. — I would have a memory of the two coast catches. (i- — Wouldn't you 1 c a memory of the Itehrinif Sea catch? .\.— That would come in the full catch of the vessel: if I knew the coast catch I would know the Behrinp; Sea catch by the full amount. Q. — What wa.4 the coast catch of the ''.luanita?" .\.— Tt is 97 for the spiintr. 'XM for tli;' coast. Q. — Now. if you made a return in l,|iiini-,v in llic nitcli. I5v Sir r. II. TiipiM-r: ii. — M<'for»' you Hpolo' lo Mr. Lo<;iim. yon hiiv there wiim a diK(iiHM.)ii iM'twccn yon tiH to tlie cxart iinionnt. How nincli n tlie seeond of Septeiiilier. il — And eanie out on llie L'nd? A.— I started for the I'ass; I didn't say what day I eiiine through the I'ass. I came out of the rass in connianv with the "Heatriee." Direct examination resumed by Sir C. H. Tupper: ii- — There seems to be some misunderstandin); about thia ".Inanita" count. Wliat is it you say wuh the total catch? A. 30 —1.181. Q.— What is the Hehriny Sea catch out of that? A.— I think it was 777. Samuel W. Huckuani, recalled for further erosH-examina* 40 lion: ]{y Mr. Warren: ii. — 1 uejjiected to ask you one tiuestion. Captain, when you WJ'ie on the stand. What lime did you leave the itort of Victorui in ISSlt? A. — I can't say without referring to the diary, (referriii},' to lo;;l February 11th. ii. — IMd you come into tiie jiort of N'icroria attain before the "Ariel" returned from Hehring Sea? A. — Not to Vic- 50 toria. (i. — So wIk'U you oultitted the ".\riel" that year for her season's voyaj.re you oiittitted for the entire lime before you left in February? A. — I oiillitted for the sj>rin>{ catch. (2. — Where did you outlit for the ISehrin^ Sea trip? A. — I think in ('layo(|uoi. t^. — Wiiere did you trans-ship youi" skins? A. — I believe some from ('layo(iuot and some from Sand Point, or in the neighborhood of Sand Point. (i. — Mow many skins did you send back from Sand Point? C>0 A. — Two hundred and eij{hty something. This book will sho\, by jtoin^ tliroufih it. ti. — S'ou can find one entry to show that? A. — I don't know the date. (Kxamininff) The r)tli or Gth of July. (i. — Did you outfit entirely anew at t''layo(iuot, or whatever l>lace it was on the west coast of Vancouver Island, before you entered in Uehiinf;- Sea. or wi're you paitially eipiipped for the triji to IJehriufj Sea when you left liere in Febiuary? A. — Partially equipped. ] IP ii;'i; ?! Mi 7^4 (S. W. Rucknam — f'loss. fS. I>. TiOgnn — Direct — Pross.) Q. — And voii Iddk s\ vcrv lilllc, as a iiuitlfi- ()<» or f7(M» worth. Q- — ItiOO or ^700 worth of proviwiouH? A. — Yos. Q. — Hcforc you h'ft for Hchriufj; S«>a in th«> y«'ar tM8!) had Q you conversed with captains and otlier ]k'o]>1(! rejjardinn seal- ini; matters here, as to tlie length of your voyafre, and the probabh' time of your h-aving Helirinpj S«'a? A. — Yes, I had. JJiHli h Georjje D. Loyan was called as a witness on the pan of 20 (Jreat Hritain and was duly sworn. Direct examination in chief by Sir C II. Tapper: Q. — -Mr. Loftan, what is your occupation? A. — I kei'p a tradin{j; store. Q. — Vou are a trader? A. — Yes. g.— Do vou lemeniber the "W. V. Savward" in 188!>? A. — Y«'S. Q.— Did you keep a tally of her catch in September, 1889? 30 -^- — I ing it distinctly separate as I go along. We shall have io examine him shortly on a special fact with regard to the cjjse of the "Pathtlnder" in IStHt. If my learn- ed friend wishes to reseive his cross-examination <»n that V<»int he may. Mr. Di'kinson: — Then the first e.icamlnatioii you have ap- plies to all the cases in 188))? Mr. Peters: — It applies to all the cases in 18S'), and. 1 think, with regard to ceritiin (piestions of weather in the Hehring Sea in tile moiidis of .lulv and .\iigusl it will be ajiplicable to all the cases. Sii i . ^'■^■\ 20 30 7>6 (W. E. Hakfi— Direct.) Mr. Difkinson: — Do you nw.m to use it in tlio ease of tlio "Caiolenu?" Mr. Peters: — ! do not propose to refer so much to the case of the "Carolen.i." because, as a matter of fact, this witness did not tish in llie Beliring Sea at that time. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — And 10 .vou do not use it in llie case of the "Carolena? Mr. Peters: — 1 do not tliiulc it has mucli applicability to that case. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Do yon use it in that case at all or not? Mr. Peters: — I do not think it applies. The Commissioner on the part of the TTnited States: — The st«'nojirapher would note that we are takinjj the evidence for the "Pathfiiider" separately. Mr. Peters: — I will take it distinctly separate, so that it can be laid aside. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — And this witness, it will be understood, is by agreement taken out of order. One part of the evidence is to be used in the case of the "Pathtinder," 1890, Claim 21, and the other in the cases of 188J». Mr. Peters: — Yes. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Where do you live, Captain Baker? A. — In Victoria, sir. (i. — llow lon^; hav'j you lived in V'lctoria? A. — About I) years. Q. — Where did you originally come from? A. — Nova So- tia. Q. — When did you come from Nova Scotia? In what year? A. — I came direct here from Nova Scotia in l'<87. (J. — In what xliip did you come? A. — In the "Viva." (2. — Were you master of her? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You brought her around from Nova Scotia lo \'ictoria? A. — Yes, sir; from Halifax lo N'ictoria. Q. — I believe for Mr. Munsie? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — He bought the "Viva?' A. — Yes, sir; he bought (he "Viva." t^. — Will you be kind enough to t(>ll me how many men you hud on l)oird the 'Viva" luinging her :iround llu^ Horn? A. — Seven all told — the captain, two mates, three seamen, and the cook. Q. — Generaly speaking, will you tell me what the captain's wages were coming around? A. — ^.")0 i»er month. Q.— And the wages of the mates? A.— I think it was faO for the first mate and ^20 for the second, and the seamen got either S('\!i or flH per montli, I forget which. Q. — These w»'re the salaries per montli? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Ex- cuse me; I want to be able to apply this testimony that is now being taken in regard to each case. What is it for? Mr. I'eters: — We are coming to the question of the value of the vessels that were brought around from Nova Scotia. I am not going into any further particulars except the wages of the men. 40 50 Co 10 20 717 (\V. E. IJiikfi'— Din-tt.) The CoinuiissioiK'r on the part of the United States:— To what does it aj)))!^? Mr. Peters: — It applies to all the vessels that cauie around from the east coast, as to their value. Mr. Dickinson: — As bearing on their value for 188U? Mr. IV'ters: — As bearing on their value when seized. It bears on the value of the vessels in IS8!) and 1887. For 1887 the value of the vessels is a very pertinent (juestion, because they were seized theii. I stated that on certain points this witness' evidence would be ai)plicable to all cases. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — You were speaking of w iges. Now there would be no presumption that wages of 1887 would be the same as 1889. Mr. Peters: — These men did come in 1887. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I asked you if it was applicable to the case of the "Carolena," and you said no. Air. Peters: — I am not going to apply it to the case of the "Carolena" — the "Carolena" did not come around the Horn. The Commissioner on the part of Hi'r Majesty: — It refers U> the vessels that came from the otlier side of the continent. ""he Commis'ioner on the part of the T'nited States: — I want to know what position we are in. What testimony will this be read into? Mr. Peters: to this point. -It will be read into the cases for 1S87 down 40 io Direct examination continued by Mr. I'eters: (J. — You gave me the wages of (he seamen at lfl5 or ^10 jM'r month; did you give me the wages of tlie cook? A. — I think it was |!2(> per month, but will not l»e positive. Q. — And it took you how many days to come around the Horn? A.— Km. (i. — I'ntil you came ar'und here in 1887 did you know any- thing about sealing? \. — Xolhing wiiatever. Q. — Had you even s«h>u your firsi seal? A. — Not to my knowledge. (i. — Did you go scaling in 1S87? A. — No, sir. (i.— Did you go scaling in 1S8S? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— As captain of what vessel? A. — The "Viva." Q. — In 188!) did you go sealing? A.— Yes .sir. Q.— As captain of what vessel? A.— The "Viva." Q— In 18!MI did you go sealing? A.— Yes, sir. r> flid joii go sealing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — As eaptam of what vessel? A. — The ''Pioneer." (i. — So fliat from ISSS to 1S!M> von have been ont sealing every year ns master of a vessel? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — If yon liad no exi)erien«e in 1SS7 yon have had exix-ri ence sinee? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — (lenerally speaking, have yon been a successful man or not? A. — Very successful, I think. Q. — As a matter of fact has there been any other sealing man as successful as yon have been? Mr. Dickinson: — I do not think that question is in order. Mr. Peters: — Well, T will take the general statement: — Q. — You have been very successful? A. — Y(>s, sir. (i. — We will come to the year 18S!», and you went out that year on the "Viva?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What trip did you go on? A. — I went on the Call- fornian coast. <}. — We will call it for the sake (»f distinction, the south ern coast? A. — Ye^, sir. Q. — You went there about what time of the year? A. — Some time in February. (■i. — And you took the usual time on that voyage, I pre- sume? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — On that vovage did you have anv success? A. — I had. Q. — Have you a book showing each day the catch you made during that year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have you that book with you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — ran you refer to that book and tell me what yon caught on the siMithern coast during the year 18H0? A. — 5S!) is tlie number. Q. — Where d'd you catch those' A. — On the southern trip. (-1. — When you si)eak of the southern coast, will yon tell us how far that trip extended? What is the northern point of it? A.— rsnally to Caiie Flattery. Q. — And south to where? A. — To San Francisco. Q. — And it was, generallv sjieaking, on that ground that you fi Mied in the first part of the year 1SH!(? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Did yoii land your sonlhein catch at N'ictoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Before proceeding on your northern trip? A. — Ves. sir. ii- — Did you then start on your northern trip? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Including the Uehring Sea? A. — Including the Hili ling Sea. Q. — ^.\nd also the sea on the way up to it? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Tty a reference t(f yoiii' book, can you tell me when y(»u tirst had seals on your northern ti-ip that year? A. — Yes, sii\ (i.— (Jive me the date please? A.— The 7tli May. Q. — Can you tell me by reference to your book how many seals ytli you caught SO seals? A. — Yes, sir. (].— July 2!tth you caught 'M seals? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — July :{Oth you caught 151 seals? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— I have added that up and the total iuade 111(5; is that correct? A. — I think so. Q. — Xow, we will turn to August, and I will call out in the same way, and if I am correct you will answer "yes." A. — Yes. sir. Q. — .\ugust 5th you caught 07 seals? i}. — August (>(h you caught 1(14 seals? Q. — August 7tli you caught 5!) seals? Q. — August Sth you caught 15 seals? Q. — August !Mh you cauglit (15 seals? Q. — August 10th you ciugiit 1 seal? Q. — August 11th you caught (i;{ seals? Q. — August 12th you caught 1 seal? .*■}. — August 1:5th you caught ;{ seals? (J. — August 14th you caught l(t5 seals? Q. — August 15th yust 'Jlst .y')u cinifjlit 4(» stals? A. — Vcn. sir. (i.— I find that tiic total is l(t(i4; is tliat cont'tt? A.— 1 have not added tlu-iii up. but I pri'siiuK! it is. Q. — Now, liavinj; uiude Ihis }>('ii»'ral statenit'iit witli rcpiid to that vear. let nic aslx .vou were you liuntiufi on llu' "Viva"' with white men or with Indians? A. — Wliite men. (i. — Can ,vou tell me tlie number of boats slie liad? A.— She had seven aItoK onlv occasion? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Wliat was your comph'm(>nt of men? A. — 2:? all told. (i. — And of cn;> hunler. hii»? .\.— In the -'Viva." il. — ^ViIl you kindly tell me when you befjan your voya^ie in 1S8S? A. — I befian sealiufj; the 21st Feiiruary. (J. — On what you call (he sondiern c(»as(? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — That is from San Fiancisco (o rajte FlaKery? A. — Yes, sir. (2. — \Vhat is the last dav's sealing!; (hat yon made <87 where they were preven(ed from tishin}; in 1.S8IS. Mr. I'eters: — Wluit is the first day's catch you bad on your northern trip? A. — On the 2nd June. ii. — That was on the way from Victoria up (o IJehrinjf Sea, or what is called thi- northern coast? A. — Yes, sir. t^. — Can you (ell me how many seals you caught on that ^^ ntudiern trip lu fore you got to liehrinsj; Sea? A. — Y'es, sir. (i.— How many? A.— 4.'$fi. t^. — Can you tell me the first day's sealinj; yon had in IJch- liiij; Sea? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— When was it? A.— July 8th. (.1. — Can yon (ell me the (list day's sealini; yon had in Ueli- riiifj; Sea? A. —Yes, sir. Q.— What was it? A.— S.'jdember 2nd. (i. — Can you (ell mr the (o(al number of seals you cau}j;ht , in IJehrinji Sea? A — Y's. sir. Q.— What is i(? A.— 1,508. Q. — The (o(aI you (aufjht seals whidi are no( included. 72\ lO 20 30 (W. E. HuktT- Direct.) Q. — Not iuclu(]i'd iu the tigiireH yon mentioned before? A. No, sir. Q. — So that you rotjil latcli was \vl»at? A. — My total catch was 2,875; I included the (i5 seals in that. Q. — That incl'ided the (i'l tiiat were caufjht in tlie stern boat? A. — Y-:'8, sir. (J. — Looking at your book again will you kindly tell me how many days you fished in Behring Sea in the mouth of July? A.— 14 days. Q. — In the montli of August how many days? A. — 1!J days. Q. — Are you sure that is right? I have marked 20 days here? A. — It was I!) days. Q. — And how many days in September? A. — One day. Q.— Can you tell me the total catch in July? A.— 881. Q. — Give me the total catch for August that year? A. — 686. Q. — In addition to the catch you have mentioned for July and August, would there be something to be added for what was caught in the stern boat? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have you got the amount in your book, showing what the stern boat did catch? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Just look at that and tell me what you caught in -h^ly and August, the two months together? A. — She caught 51. Q. — And that would have to be added to the other figures for the catch in Ueliring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. H. — In 1888 how many boats had yoti on your vessel? A. — I had six hunting boats and the stern boat on the southern trip. Q. — And on the Behring Ser. trip how many boats had yo>i? A. — Five hunting boats and the stern boat. Q. — Will you be kind enough to tell me what the weuther was like for hunting that year in Behring Sea? A.— Thr weather was favourable. Q. — How many men did you have in 1888? A. — I had 2:{ all told on the sorithern trip, and on the Behring Sea trip I had 20 all told, if I remember aright. (I. — Now you liave made a statenu'nt there as to what seals you caught daily in the Behring Sea that year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will you kindly read that out? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Does that include the stern boat? A. — The stern boat is separate but I will give it afterwards. Q. — What you are about to read now does not include the stern boat? A. — No. Q. — Please state the number of seals you caught in that year in Julv and August, and the dav you caught them on? A.— On Julv nth I caught 1 seal; Julv" !Hh, seals; July 10th, :{1 seals; July 11 th, 7 seals; July 12th. 18 seals; July l.'UIi, I seal; Julv 11th. 5(! seals; Julv 15tli, 181 seals; Julv Hith, 17 seals; Julv 17th. 41 seals; Julv 18th, 151 seals; July 1!lt!i, 154 seals; July 2Gth, 02 seals; July 28th. 11!) seals; that is all for July. (i. — Now give us the montli of August? .V. — On August .">th I caught nine seals; .\ugust 7fh. 24 seals; August 8th, .1 seals; August 10th. seals; August 12th. 16 seals; Augu.st l."?th. 7 seals; August 14th. 218 seals; .Vugust 15th. 12 seals; (Jq August 16th. 1 seal; August 18th. 6 seals; August 10th, 8 seals; .Vugust 20lh, 7.'$ seals; August 21st. seals; August 22nd, 8 seals; August 2;?rd. 1 seal; August 25th. .55 seals; August 2«th, .50 seals; August 27th, 170 seals; August 30th. 1 seal. That is all foi' .Vugust. (i. — And in Sept«'mber how many did you catch? A. — I laught one seal on ihe 2nd September, that is all. Q. — Be kind enough to turn to the stern boat account, lakiutv the same month, and give us the number of seals 46 40 50 i-i iiinj. '«? A. — 111 the "Viva." liiiv«' tlint yciir? A. — Six -Twcnfv-tliict' iiu'ii. 20 iv» you fislicd in .hilv? yon flsliod in Aujiiist? T22 (W. K. lliiliiT— Diirct.) ♦ iiujiht for oiicii diiv. A.— On -Inly KMli I tiuiglit 2 seiilw; Jnlv lUlli, 1 seal; ,lnly 14111, 1 seal; -Inly ir>tli, 11 walH; .luly IStii, 5 soalH; .Inly lil'tli, 4 scaiw; Jniy liOtli, 1 seal; .Inly 2Stli. 4 Hi'als. Tliat w all tor -Inly. Q._\ow with rcpird to Aiinnst? A.— On Anfiust 1411i, 14 NcalH; Anj,'nH( 2(Mli. 1 seal; AntjnHl 'JUIli, 1 Hcal; Aligns! '-'7lli, ',) K(>alM. Q. — \,)w did yon p) to tlio Ik-hi-in}^ Sea tlio foUowinj,' yoar, •° nanu'ly. 18!Mt? "a.— Yes. sir. (i. — What v<'ss«'l did yon j^o in? Q. — TIow many Ito.its did slu* linntiue boats and a stern boat. (i. — And how many men? A.- Q.— Will yon kindly tell me for that year, did yon Ro on any otlier tHps besides the northern trip? A. — I went »\\ the sontlu'rn trij). Q.— Will ys, reserving the cpiestion for fiitur»> argument. There is no (|Uesti(ni lieve as to the cases of seizures in ISHfi where they claimed ihe probable catcli for ISST. or the seiz- ures ii.:- 1SS7 wliere they claimed (he probable catch for 1SSS. The Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — I do not renienil\'r wliat was ruled before, but it seems to me tliiit the catch f(M- any reasonable year, es]»ecially after the time in re- sjM'ct to which the claim is made wouhlTiave a bearing, be- caiLse presumably tli" seals are not a|tprtMiab!y greater. 5^' Therefore at all events within a limited nuinbei' of years thoy may be considered to be alKMil the same in nnmbor, and the catch in any \^'\^v to be reasonably close — not getting to re- mote fi(un the date in cpiestion — would seem to me to have a very obvious bearing njxm the probable catch for the year in (|nestiar( of the I'nited States: — It waw ruled out after veiv careful consideration. A.— A.— A. 6c. The ('(niimissioner on the ])art of Her Majesty: — The evi- dence might not be admissible in 1S!»4, because at that time the mode of se.iling was changed after the regulations came in force, and, of course, with a changed mode of sealing (lie circumstances would not be th(> same and the evidence would not be aiijilicable; but it would be otherwise where the mode of fishing is tli" same. ON. K. r.akcr— hiivcl.) Tlu' ("ominiHsioiiiM- on (In- purl of llic riiiird HIalt's: — In ISS!) was not the Ihvi practitally driven out of lU'lirinp Sea? Ml'. IN'teiM: — In 1SS!( this man was not. Tin* ('oniniissiont'i' on the |>ai't of I he I'nitiMl Slates :--Th(> warning; had tl'c elfeet of |»raclieall,v drivin); ail tlie boats (Mit t»f Heiirinf; Sea. Mv. I'etei's: — Tt drove out a k''""' nuiuy. The roinniiHsionei* on llie jiart of the United Stales: — It ])raeti(-all,v drove out the entire tieet. I reinenili<'r distinitlv Hie nilinjj;. it was about 1S!M. We lield tluit you could not l»ut in tlie evidence -is to 1S!I1 because it fiave tli(> otlier sidf tlie opjiort unity of Koinji into Hie (luesticui as to wliether there had not tieen circunistauces whicli diiiuged Hie condi- tions of seal liteduriiif: the interval. It was oi»eiiiii;r up (fuestions which it was not woitli our while to investijiate. 20 Here conies, now. thi' same (inestion to my mind. If the Tnited States admitted that the circuuistances were iiracti- cally the same in 1800 as they were in ISSt! or l.'iST, then per- haps this woul 1 not come under the ruliiii!; we have made. However, my leirned friend also desii'es to hear tin evidence, and that settles the matter. Mr. Diclvinson: — I was about to say that the intimation of His Lordship was suttfcient for us. The Commissioner on the jtart of the Tnited States: — It 5° opens up the case so that you can show whether or not there were special cii-cumstances in that case. The Commissioner on the part of Her ^lajesty: — Certainly. Mr. Dickinson: — It is open to show that the catch of IS!(() was modified by circ.imsttinces. Direct examination by Mr. Peters continued: Q. — Can you cemeinber the number of seals you caufjht in ■Iiily in the Kehrinj; Sea for the year lS!)t(? A. — Yes, sir, ■^'^ ISO. ti. — In Aufrusr how many did you catch? A. — 1,45!(. Q. — In September of that vear how nianv did vou catch? A.— ;?7(l. (i. — How ma ly davs did vou catch seals on in .July, 18!)()? A.— 15 days. Q. — How many davs did you catch seals in August 1800? A.— 22 days. Q. — How many davs did you, catdi seals in September 18)10? A.— Ki},'ht days. Q. — (Jive us I he statement of what the catch was each day. Will you kindly r<'ad it otY from your book? A. — On duly 7tli the catch w;!s- 1 seal; .liilv !Mh'. 1 seal; .lulv lltli, 4 seals; July 15th, 22 seals; .luly ISIh. 2 seals; .Inly lOtli. 15 seals; -Inly 20tb, 22 seals; .Inly 2tsl. IS seal.i; .Inly 22nd. 40 seals; .hilv 2:$rd, 2 seals; Julv 24th. ;!0 seals; .lulv 25tli. It! seals; •Inl'v 2r>th, 5 seal?; Julv'2!>th, 1 seal; .lulv .'{oih. 1 seal; that is all 'f .Nugust 4th the catch was two seals; August (!th, 1 seal; August Sth. 42 seals; August Dth. '>C> seals; August lOtli. l.'il seals; August 11th. 'il seals; August 12lli. 7!) seals; August 14th, 20 seals; Angiist 15th, 3!» seal.^; August 17th. 1 seal; August ISth. 2 seals; August 10th. 1 seal; August 21st. .1 seals; August 22nd. 204 seals; August 2.'{rd. 175 seals; August 24th, 1.54 seals; .\ugust 25lli. 04 seals; .Vugiist 2»tth. 51 seals; August 27tli, 00 seals; August 20lli, 00 seals; August ."iOtb, 108 s<'als; August .'U.^t, :U seals. That is all for August. 5e i ill III' !1i ''I'll:' :i 'I 724 iW. K. HakiT— Direct.) Q. — Now wivu lis (lio catcli for Scptcinbci? A. — On Si'p- t('iiib«'i' iHt 1 niiifjlit HO hciiIh; HciitcmlM'f 'Jiid, ft Ht'uls; Rcptera- her .'{rd, l\'.\ hchIm; Kcplciiibcr 4tli, 40 hciiIh; HcpttMiilMT 7lli, I seal; Scplcinbcr KHli, 40 Heals; Heplciiiber lltb, 4 sealH; Hep- tcinber iL'tli, HO wals; tliat iw all for Septcinbor. Q.— Did .von (inh in HcliiiMK Sea in IHOl or ]H!»L'? A.— No, sir, I did not. JO Q. — (.'ajitain Ualvcr, 1 wihIi nenerallv 1H fluhed witli wliite liunterH? A. — Yes, Kir. Q. — And never us-d Indians? A.— No, sir. il. — I want to ask you tlie (general ((uestion — ^have you had anything to do witii ordering the HU|i|ilies of vessels from year to year? A. — Y«'s, sir Q. — Have you always ii craged in vessels about the samu estimate? A. — Of tlie .same size. (■l- — NYith the same number of boats? A. — Yes, sir. 20 Q- — >Yhat is the itiggest number of boats you ever had? A. — Seven. ().— Including the s.t«'rn boat or what? A.— Including the Ktern boat. Q. — Tell me, generally speaking, what quantity of jtowder you take on your trip, and for what length do you think it would last? The (Vmimissioner on the jtart of the I'nited States: — Y'ou know, Mr. Petere, we have been over this ground two or three HQ times. Why do yo)i not put the general question to him as indicated by Judge King? \Yhy do you not ask him the quantity of powder !ie would take for a vessel of the size he has spoken of? Mr. Peters: — Tell us how much powder you would take, say. for a five months' voyage? A. — About si.\ kegs. (i. — And for a nine montlis' voyage? A —Twelve or thir- teen kegs. il. — As between lt(>hring Sea and the south coast, where •^ would 30U expect most of the shooting to be done — on the south cojist or in the sea? A. — About the same. (i. — I mean to say, where do you get your biggest catch? A. — In Behring Sea. Q. — And where will you fire the most i»o\vder? Mr. Lansing — Whar year? Mr. Peters: — Any years thev shot in Behring Sea — 1887, l.H8,s or 1889? A.-A'sually the most in Behring Sea. 50 (.'ross-examination by Mr. Lansing: ii. — ('aptain Baker, you say you have been very successful since you began sealing. Have you been as successful as any other captain you know of in this port? A. — I think so. (i. — Have you been more successful than any other captain you know of? A. — In some cases. Q.— In your experience for the years 1888. 188!) and 18U0, 60 wei'»> you not as successful as any other captain? A, — I was high line foi' the Heor. (I. — Were you not uu)re successful than any other captain in those years? A. — In 1888 I was high line. Q. — Tt 1888 you made the largest catch? A. — Y'es, sir. Q. — And in 1889 you made the largest catch? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And in 1890 you made the largest catch? A. — Yes, sir. •IJI'lN! '2(1 ^W. K. linker — <'i<»kh.) Q.— I>o .villi lliiiik your vt-MHcl r<>{)ri>H<'iit*>d tlio hvitiihc • iHcli of ihoHf .vtiiis? A.— Hlu' wiiH liiKli line. Hlie wiih iiltove llu> avci-iigt'. t^— A Ko .voii know liow iniiiiy veMst'lM were out in 1HH!» from lliiK jiorl? A. — No, Mir. ,Q (2.— I>o.voii know iilioiit how many? A. — I would Imvi' to ftut'HM at it. t^. — Yon know alioul liow man.v, niiitain, left tliiH jiorl in 1HS!>? A.— VcN, [ lliink llii'i-c wt're about 40. (\. — For Mfliiintf Sea? A. — I think no; that Ih only a rouKli KiK'NH. (\. — Is it no) a fact, captain, tliat with over 'IW vchhcIh h'livintj; this jiort in 1>S!», tlii' total catcli in Hcln-int; Sea was al»oiit H»,r)(M»? A.— I do not know the total catch. (\. — I think you slatt'd where yon made your luiin-ipal 20 eatclies in tlioKi' yeaiN? \. — Yen, sir. (). — In ISilO wh«'re wan your jnincijial maliii)? i;i<><1'^ '^- — To the westward ^iiid Hoiitliwaid. (\. — In IS!M»? A. — Yes. sir; during the tlrst jiart of the aea- Kon; the latter part to the eastward. (i. — Did you make your largest catcli in the latter jiart? A. — Yes, sir. (\. — Then your clii>'f huntiuft urouiid we.s where you wi-re nt the Inst of the seastni? A. — That was the best. Q. — Did you lliid seals there in any other years? A. — I 30 had never been there before. Q. — To the eastward you would consider the best liuntinn f;ronnd? A. — In that year. Q. — And yon had never been there before, S(» that you do not know but it was tlie best hiintiiij; in other years? A. — I do not, sir. Q. — Do the huntiiif; }{••<>""<•*< thaufre fr«mi year to year? A. — I think they do. (\. — What would yon say was the reason of that? A. — I do not know, except beiii^ liunled. ^o (I. — Is it on aco they rove about in the water ^Ir. Milne, the Collector of Cnstcmis here, which I now show you as reitrinted in \dl. .T of the American Reprint, jiane i*")*!? A. — (Kxaminins it)— Yes, T made a statement. Q.— You did make that slatenieiit? \. — I made a state meiit ; I would not swear whellier it was that one. (\. — Did you, in that statement, in reply to ipiestion 41, say as f; Sea, are tliey increasiiitj or decreasin};? A. — From iny experience I liave not seen any decrease, bat 60 1 liave noticed also tliat they clianjfe their jjronnds from time to time, and where you find them this year you may not find them the next. Tliis was very remarkable during the year 1H!»0, for the seals were all found to the eastward of the Prib- ilolT Islands wliile in former years they were found to the westward." Yon iiuide that statement? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Now. in 1SS!». ymi say there were twenty-three days in which you look seals. How many of tlios<' days were low- I'liiiK? A. — Nearly every day. I could nol tell exactly. r-1 OV. V- Milker— CntHH.) (2.— Tlu'ii oil Moiiic of till- IdWciiiiK diijh >t«i «nily look oue „,.„1-; A.— Tlicmc (lii.VH would be diiVK we shot lliciii from I lie VfHwl. (^._\Vli,.i, yoi' Hiiy !.•:« dii.VH, il (Iocs not ft'prcM'iit tlif lowef- iiiK diiys at all,' A.— Not tin- lowering da^h. (^._\Vlio wciv voiir Imiil.'is In ISM!»? A.— Williani l'u.ym'. OH.ai- HcaitT, Kdwaid Kliichln, Williani Slii.-ldM. Ufoi'gc Ilowf ,_ ami TliointiH llo\v«'. (2.— Now in IHH't tlioHc were all cxpfrii'mcd hiintfiH wcro tlif.v not? A. — All Init out'. (J._.M,.ii wlio had hi'i-n in I lie biisincsM sfvcnil .vt-arH and Hliot Ht iiIh for a lonj; lime? A.— I don't know jnxl how lonjf — a 1'ew .veaiB before. (2._V(,n know Kiitli men aw Osear Searf tind Kd ShieIdH had been linnlint; for Heveral .vears? A.— A few .veai^ Ihey had been hniitiii(;. (). — Were Ihe.v not iih experienced as aii.v men oul of thiH 20 I"*i'''' •^- — VeH.Hir. (I. — Were Ihe.v not iik ^ood hIioIs aw any men thai Healed from lliiH jiort? A.— The.v were. (i.— Were they not belter than llie average? A.— Ilett«>r than I lie averaf;e. {\.—\ \fs\m\ deal belter? A.— They were belter. (J.— In ISSS would the same Nlalemeiit ajijily as to days in whieli yon took seals? It doi's not re|»resenl llie loweriiifj days? A. — .No. sii'. i^. — .\iid, for inslanee, I lliink yon staled llial on Anpist. 30 S, 1(1. L':t and :! yon kepi those men that yon had in 1SS8, the most »>xpenenced? .\. — Some of them. (i. — .\nd in lS!l(l. how was it in rejfard to hnnt«'rs? Did yon have the same men? A. — No, sir. (i. — Kniirely dilTerenl? A. — I tiiink some of the same. (I. — Did yon have Scarf.' A. — No. sii'. (i. — Did yon have Shields? A. — I can name them over, 50 sir. I had Thomas ITowe, <5eorRe Howe; then I had for a while Frank Howe and chanj^etl iiini for .lames I'arks; Wm. Stoker, Win. \\illiains ,ind Kdwanl t'anlillan. K\. — Those are all exjterienced men, ai'c Ihey? A. — No, sir. (\. — Which ones were not? .\. — Frank Howe and .lames Parks. (\. — Tlie others weie experienced? .\. — The others were all expeii»'nced. (i. — ^^sow does it make any ditTerence in (lie result as to whether your hnnlers are <'xperieiiced or not? .\. — Yes, sir. ^"^ i\. — And therefore, a man with three year.s' experience, if lie was a j{ood shot, would ffet more seals than he would in his earlier years? .V.— Yes. sir. Q. — Now take one vessel with one set of hunters, and take your vesstd with the hunters yon hud — is it fair to base the catch of that M-ssel on what you did? A. — There were many other vessels had as good liunlers. Q. — .\nswer my tpiestion. Would il be fair — II '4\n lO 30 728 (W. K. Hiikoi— Cross.) Ml', refers; — Tlint is liiinll.v a (pieslioii for orosa-extnninn ne answer. ^li^le8tion read.) A. — If they had as good hunters as I had it would be. (i. — Von said you liad better men than any other \essel that went out? A. — No, .sir; 1 didn't say that. e;irs tli( y would do bett.T in U.-hring Sea in those years. (i.— Make larger catches? A.— I think so. with spears, not witli shotguns. (^._|)i,T (iiey make larger cat dies (ban you did in Hehring Sea in Miose years? .\.— Made average catches. Q._|);,l they make larger ca(clies? .V. — lust an average catch. (j._i)id (hey make larger catches than you? A.— X ascertain wiiicii is li«-sl, sviiitc linnlri's oi- Indian linnlcrs" -\( ,o Q.— /I'oni actnai fxipciicncc von can tell ns notliinu ahont hid', in iinntcis? That is \ onr ansvvc is it? i. — I nnd<'rstood von to say that some of llic vessels car- rii'd donltlc as many Indian linntcrs a» yon carried. 1>o yon Ile to all cases w\il)se(]nent (o the '•('ar(deiia."' and is |(riiited here foi' crnnenieiice. I-anglilin .McLean w.is called as a witness on the jiart of (ireat Britain and dnh- swo n Kecemlier 17, is<.t(>. Direct examination by .Mr. Iieiiine, 40 (i. — Yon reside in the cit\ of N'ictoria, I helievi Vf ii. — And yon are aliont noinji sealing:? .\.- Yes, sir. <2. — How lonu have yon lieeii, ('ajitain, in the sealing' Inisi nes ■• .v.- Siii.e ISST *l — Inclusive? A. — Inclusive. il. — On what vessel were \()n in ISS'7? A. — (tii tlie schoon- er ' i'avourite." Q.— In hSSH what vessel wire von on 'I'^ivoniile g.— In IHSIfJ •F .\s nniHler? \. ivomite, \s master, ves. sir. A. 60 Q. — Did yon fio inio IJelirinfi Sea any of tiie.se years'; — Yes. sir. (i. — Whiit time did yon jio into liehriii}; Sea in ISST? A.— The HMh ot .Inly. (i. — When did yon iea\c Itehrini; Sea? .\. — I will have to refer (o my books (exaniiniii;i nieiiiorandiiiiii. In 1SS7 my last day of seal.njj was (he 27tli of .\ii.t;ii.luly and August; has he sep- .-irated I hem? ~ WflFlf)!ffJ,fl Ml. Ueit|ue: lie has given (he July ca(cli. your Ilonoui'. ^'O (To witness.) Q. — N"iw let us come b.ick to 1SS7. Yiui stated you were oil the "Kavorile" in l.'^S7? .\. Ves. sir. Q.— Will you give vour daily latcli (ov ISS7? .\.— On the KKh of Jnlv. :'.; Illli. 2:t; K'.lh. 55; I5lh. i:!; 17th. 4(1; IStli. (IS: 2tsi. ."»!»; :.'2nd. ': 2:ird. IS; 2lili. 171; 25ih, it; 27tli. 4; 2!>(h. 4; :!1si. 5(1: .\iilmisI IsI. IC: 2iid. 2!t: llli. S;!; 5th. 1(15; (Kh. KIS; Sth. litlt; !llh. :?(t; I2(h, Hi:!; 15tli. Ill; 17(li. 2(1; ISth. .ifl'i IV ;■ ' ^^Jitfmr^^i^.wjm^fm, u r'i l|'!i':| 732 (LiiiiK'Iilin ^fcljCim — Direct — DroMS.) It7; Uttli, ;?; L'Olh, 14; L'liiid. u!»; L':{i; iiid th,' 2Gth ia the last day of scaling. Q. — Were tlit'se all lowering days? A.^ — All lowering days. (i.— What nntriber of eanoes did you have in 1S,S7? .\. — White hunters. (i.— ^'ou had boats? A. — Six boats. 10 ^i- — Ii"l"*li'ig' the stern boat? A. — Including the stern boat. tj. — Was the stern boai: used nnuli? A. — No, sii- very seldom. (i.— In l.S><7 what was llie total calch in Hehring Sea? A.— 1SS4. Q. — Now in KSbS can you give your daily catch in IJehring Sea? A. — I can't very well give the details in ISSIS witliout going through (lie whole book again. I coui 1 give the totals. The total was \KU. 20 Q. — lla\c you slaled from what time to wl al time? -K. — the Sth of .Inly commenced. Q. — And you left? .\.— (hi liie I'Tlh of August. Q.— What crew had you in tSSS? A.— Iiuliaii. Q. — How many canoes? A. — I had 1.*? ;anoes. (.]. — Any guns? A. — Ves, sir, we iiad guns, not (he same kind (hat we use now. mu/.zle loadii;,. Q. — Were (hey much used? .v. — Well, (hey used to bi' used very much; i( would take me half an hour (o load one. Q. — Tlii'y used SjK'ars? A. — Yes. they did. 3^3 Q. — ^A'onld it take you any time to go through your book and give (he daily ca(cli in ISSS? ^'ou can give it from day to day? A. — Yes, fiid you make a s(al( iiieiil (o him of (he ca(ch of (lie "FavourKe" for 1SS7? .\. — 1 miglit have; I don't remem- ber. Q. — Yon iiia(i( a sia(emeii( (o liim, did yon not? A. — I can'( ri'mciiilier liia( 1 did, I remembei- of meediig Tiim once, (hat is ail. (i. — ^'ou had some coiiversaliou widi him. did you no(? .\. — I don"( remember whether I did or not; (licie was five or si.\ of us me( him in (lie ciis(om house here. (i. — For wlial iuii|)ose did you mee( him? .\. — 1 don't re- 60 member. iy — Did yon noi lueei liim for (he |iiirpose of giving iufor- niadoii as lo s(iil life am! as (o (lie (iMcli of (lie v<'ssels? A. — \eiy likely I did sonie( liini; like llia(. Q. — T?ut (li.'ii is wlial you (alked aboiil at (lia( (iine, is it no(? A. — I (liink i( was. (i. — And if he and his colleague published a iepor( of (he calcli of (he "FavouiKe" in l,'^.'*i7 he secured llia( iiiforma(iou from you in all luobabilily? .V, — I suiipose he did. 733 (Langhliu McLean — Chims.' Q. — >'(i\v, to refresh your reeolleetioii as lo wlietlier yi ad a eon versa' inn w itii Sii- (ieoruc ISadi'nl'ttwell. Id nie refer von to an allidavit von made on the second day of Oc- tober, IS!(J, American Ue-print, \'ol. S. jiajfc <•: Look at that and see it that is a eojiy of the aHichtvit you made at thiit time A. — (F'^xaminiuifl ^''^. i^''- Q. — I will I'ead from (iiis aftidavit a reference of Sir (leoijie Baden rowell for tlic pnrposc of frdtinfr if in the record. It savs here, thies it lol. tlial Sir ({eorije I'.adcn I'owell aslort of the Helirinj; Sea Commission c(nitained in tlie Anici'ican Ue|>rint, \<)\. (t, {)ii};i> li.**.") of the catch of the "Favonritc" for ISS". and aslv yon if it is not stated there that the total catch of the "Favonrite" was \HH~ for that year? Mr. l{ei(|ne: — The witness does not apjiear to liave been examined abont this in this anichnit. 30 Tl ic (piestion was |»nt in sudi a way as to infer that it is based tm a report made by the witness as |»nblislicd in \'ol. .'-!. It is not open to my learned brother to ]int in evidence a repoi-t of this kind. There la no fonndation for it and I ask that it Ite stricken from the notes. Mr. \Yarren:— I asked the witness if he had made state- ments to Sir (Jeorfic liadcn Powell and he said he had. I asked liini if the Coniniission had ])iiblished the catch of the 'Favonrite" for ISS7, in all probability the information came from liin d lie re]ilie(l "Y' I now rel'ei- him to the repoi't of the ('ommissieni r and ask him the (piestion as above. Mr. |{ei(pie: — On reiVniii;; lo llie allidavit thai In 40 we lind that he made the al1i(Ia\it above, but tiieii reference at all to tli atcli ol I lie •F I votuiie The ("omniissioiier on the part of Her .Majesty: — It cannot do you any harm. .Mr. I«ei(pie. to jjet the statement of Sir ♦ icorj^e Uadi'ii I'owe!!, unless it is in some way connected with the sworn testimoii\'. Mr. I)i( -We submit that wi' would like our learned friends lo jiive us the beiielil of the rub thai they •50 laid down in this class of eases and the benetit of the rule under which they have cross-examined our witnesses. Mr. Mei(|ue: — We will try to do so. and try lo j;(ivern our seh'es by the rules as laid down tor eveiybody. Cross-examination couliisued by Mr. Warren: i-i. — Have yon answered the (piesiioii yet. whether the total catch is there slated lo be IS.sJ? .\. — My toial coast catch was ISS7. I nii^ht have shot two or tliree seals on the way 60 home. t^. — It says there, the lolal calcli of the viar is 1SS7. does it not? A. — I look cliaix ' id any one t'lru' iiavc a (Miny of tlic log of tin- "Favonr- itf" for ISS7 in tlic Sea cxct'iil von? .\. — Not tlial I fcmcni- b.T. (2. — Tlicn wlirfc wonid Sir (icorgc IJadcnl'owcM get that slatcnuMit if Ii" (ii<1 not get it from yon? A. — I don't tldidc Sir (Jcorgc Hade n-l'DWcll ever asiccd nic for a statement tlial 1 reinemliei' of. t^. — IHd Ins colleagnes or asso( intes? A. — I ueneraliy make my I'ciiorts to ilic Cnstom Mouse of my cateli of seals, lint T don't -emendier of c^ei- mailing a >Jta(ement to Sir ped it to him. Q.— Did von ship it to ^Ir. Milne'' .\.— I don't think I did. ii. — Then Mr. Me.\ander. so far as yon know, is the only one who has seen tiie log of tiie "Favourite" for tlie ]mrjKi.s»> of using the iafornmlion therein contiiined since llie log was written until tiii^ time? A. — I didn't show it to hiin to make use of it. he Jus! merely wanted to see it. ii. — Did you sliow Mr. .\le.\ander any log of the ''Favourite" for any years? .\. — T showed him this hook here lindicat- ing.) Q. — For the ])uriio.so of leltilig him use it ? A. — Tie told nw he wanted to sec it. and 1 lei liim look at it. Q. — Have you a log of the "Favourite" for th(> year l.'^Ss? A. — Yes, sir. was not in I lie "Favourite" Q._F(,r the vcar li'^sti? A.— 1 in ISSfi. 40 Q. — You th of .Vugust. I think? A.— :27th, I think. Q. — ,]\n\ refer to your book in answering lliat? .V. — (K.\- aminingi LMith. Q.— Wiiy .--Wheii' were yai en ilie •Jiiih. icl.ilive to the Island? .\. — Seulhwe>t. (i. — Mow far from I'liimnk I'as? .\. — Down close to I'ogoshilT. i !li!:,i llliljnl' iiiPVPUifii"^PW^^ 7i(> (Laiighliii MfLeun— CroBB.) Q. — How luan^- nieu did you liav*' in tlie boat that yearf A. — Thri't' iiK'n. (I. — Whitt' men? A.— All wliilc www. (J. — How large a irew did .vou have altt)gethei? A.— Twent.yone. Q. — Ih it an advantage (o have three men in a boat as against (wo men in a boat? A. — You cannot work a large boat with two men to an.v advantage. Q. — Wi'A ^bree men in a boat get better results than two men in a bo.it? A. — I don't know, with a smaller boat I think two men would be just as good. Q. — Do jou know of white hunters going out two men in a boat? A. — Yes, sir, 1 have known some to go. Q.— When? A.— Well, I think it was in 1888 or 1880, tho "Molly Adams," now the "F. H. Alarvin," had 12 boats, two men in a boat. (i. — That was an experiment, was it not, to see if she 20 I'ould ('I'.rrv a large number of boats? A. — It might have been. Q. — Do you know any other vessels? A. — The ''Sapphire'' at Victoria. Q. — Do you know of any other instance? A. — No, I don't think I do. (i. — Those are <'Xceptions, are they not? A. — They are tin; only two that I know of. Q. — Now if two men in a boat accomplish just as much as three men in a boat and they could use smaller boats, and 3*^ the smaller boats cost less, why did they not do it? A. — I always had three men in a boat. I only had white liunterM one year altogether. Q.— Did they have guns in 1887? .V.— Yes, sir. il. — How many guns in a boat? A. — One; scune of the huu (ers had two. and some owned guns of their own and took twd in a boat. Q.— The year 1>!S8 I believe you had Indians? A.— Yes. sir. Q Q. — That was the year y.)n have detailed tlie catch here? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — In the year 188i> you lowered youi- Ixtats the last day on the 2.")th of August, is that so? .V. — Yes. sir. (he '17A\\ of August. Q. — Did you run short of water that year? A. — I don't know what called me in that year.. il. — W'Av. it water? .\. — No, sir, there was vessels with big catches after 1 left. I have forgot what took me out of the Sea so early. 50 Q. — You wer<> not afraid of being seized in 188!), were vou? A.— A little bit. (i.— Then you left on that acc<»unt? A.— No, I did not leave exactly on that accou.it. (I. — You did not leave because it was bad weather, and do not know why you did leave? A. — I*erhaj)s I wanted to go home. il. — Whai' is your liest reccdiection about 5r? A. — I think I did want to . Q. — The fact is the sealing was alxnit over? A. — No, sir, (J. — \\hy did you leave? \. — I was very sorry I did leavt when the vessels came in with big catches afterwards. (^._Y„ii left the Sea in that year on the 'Jnd. of .\ugnst did vou not? A.— 188!). the 25th. (^,_V„„ lowered on the 2r)th. last? A.— We left th.> Sea on tlie 2!Hh. Q._Ii, 1S8!) you said yoiif last sealing day was the 2.'»th. of August ; when did you leave (he Sea? A.— On the .'?Oth. day of August, 60 l>l 10 (l.iiu;;liliii Mi'l.'Mti rross.i (2. — \Vli;il di.l ^voii *l() widi lliosc live dii^vs lictwet'ii the lime thill ^Vdii lowt'ivil llic IjihI, on llic '2't\h., iiiitl llic time ^voii left tlic Sea? A.— 1» wiin tliick wciitlifr. (■i. — Now iiH yoii ii'hcsli yo\w rctollcci ion, do ,voii not Ihink i( was so (liick wcallici' Dial voti coiiM nol seal? A. — Dur- ing; those live davs ii was nol. (■i. — Yon canic onl lor thai reason? A. — Nol exact Iv for tliat reason. Q. — Did ,V(ni see any break in the weather? A. — Tliere was a break, the wind caiiie from the sonthwesl. a };ale. Q. — Yon had Indians. I believe. Ilial vear, and II eanoes? A. — I had i;{ canoes. id I nov ask von jiisl now aboni the ;?Olh? A. — The ;$Oth. was llie dav I came out. the wind, it was to the westward and lifted llie fo};. (i. — AYas it a stoini.v dav. You were hove to a part of the (hiy. 1 will read from yonr lofi'. on the :{Olli day of .\nf;ust, where il says: •N'ery heavy wind, hove to under mainsail and jib 4 o'clock in the aft? A.— That is ri;-!it. ii. — Now will yon look for a few days pi'ecedinfi the IJOtli. ami a few days after, and tell me if il was stormy weallier 30 A. — It was nol stress of weallier that took me out because I had been 10 days in the Sea when I cinild not lower a boat. (J. — And the weather was very nncerlaiii in ISSt! and l^Sl was it not? .\. — Xo, ISSC was an extraordinary fine seas(»u. (2. — And 1SK7 was line I sniijiose? A. — .\ ;h, it was not a bad season. Q. — Have you }>()t any claim before this Comniisison? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Do yon know llial the weallier of ISSIJ and 1SS7 and 1° IS,S!» is a inalter of imiiorlaiice here? .\. — 1SS7 there was a jrodd deal of (on; ISSit was not liad. il. — Yon have worked for Mr. Siirinji' liave you nol? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Yon arc connected with Afr. Sjirin}! in business now. are yon not, in a way? A. — No. sir. Q. — \Ylien did ^on break your connection with !Mr. Spring? A.— In the sprinp of IS!).^. Hook conlaiiiiiifj iiiemoraiidnni of "I'"'avoiirile's" sealiiif; 50 catch, 1SS7-1S!!.") uiarki'd No. ."> for ideiiliticalioii. The ('ommissioiier oil tlie jiait of Ilei' Majesty: — This is just a book used in exaniiiial ion. il. — Heferriiifi to pajje eijiiit of that liook which lias just been marked for id(>iiiilicalioii as niiiidier live, I will ask you if the tifrures ;iiid llu writinjj; in llie lirsl column and llie left of that ]M}H' are not in your liaiidwritiiiji? A. — Xo, sir. ii. — .\nd all llie writing 011 that ])a};e is in the Iiamlwriting of Mr. Charles Sjiriiitc? A. — "^'es, sir. 60 ii. — Mr. Spriiij; was nol aboard the "I"\ivoiirite" in ISSti in Hehriiif; Sea was he? A. — I cannot tell yon. Q. — lie did not seal ini her ri'frnlarly? .\. — Nol always. ii. — He was not 011 her in 1SS(!: was he in I'.ehriiifi Sea? A. — I could nol tell, I didn't know the sealiiij; business then. Q. — Do you not know tliat Cajit. .Mexaiider JIcLean had her in 1SH(5. The rominissioiier on the ]iarf of the riiited Slates: — lie says he does not know, and that ens<) ninnin^ tlii'<)ii(;h Huh Ixiok in ,vonr liiintlwritin^:? A. — I'roni ]>ii^(' !)H It) the nii(1(llt> of ptiKc IM4, it is in tlu* luindwrit- in;; of tii*' matt'. (i. — Did von lit'cp I lie loji tliat .vcar, or tlic unite? A. — lie ]<(>|)t both tiiiH ono and tlio oiij^inal log. l^. — Now, win n von wiTc (^ivinn vonr tt-Htinioiiy. tlds wan tile nicmorandnni book to wliicli .von referred, was it not, the one for IHH!)? A. — Tiuit in the one; yes. (i.— Now, lliis iw not k' pt l),v yon at all in yonv wiilinfr? .\. — No, it is not in my writint;. Q. — It was not keitt by ;. »n? A. — No, it waH not kept by ine. ii. — And the original iof; kept that year was not kejtt Ity yon? A. — It was not kept by nie eilhei (I. — Who was the mate that year? A.~ His name was Mr. Turner. II. — Is he in \'ietoria? .\. — I c.'innot tell yon, I am snre. i}. — When was he last in \'i(loria, do yon know? .\. — I don't think he has bicn here for tlve or six years il. — .\nd this was (he memorandum book which yon used in yoni- direet testimony to refi'esli yotir reeollectiou? A. — It is. Q. — (.'onid you have f{iven (he catch of the "Favourite" for 1MS!( without referring!: (o (his book? A. — I can. (J. — Where did you }iet this information from? A. — From my own. ii. — Where did you fjet your own from? A. — Out of my own book. (). — So that when you L'ave your testimony you i;"ve it upon infornuili(»n derive(» I took out of this book (small book in hands of witness). (2.— 18S7 and 1880 were all taken out of (hat, and by tliat you mean the memorandum book which has been identitied here in your examination? A. — That is the one. ii. — Now in 1SS7 and 1SS8 the book you have }fiven your in- to fj; v-iyajje of the "Favourite" for ISMS is in (he handwritinfj of the mate, is it not? A.— Not for isss, it is the handwriting of Mr. Sprinfj. Q.— And for 1SH7 in whose handwritinjt is it? A.— lu 1887 it is Ml'. Sprin(j;'s also. (^ — Now when you testified relative to the catches of 1887 and ISSS, did you obtain your information from the entries made in this memoi-andiim book which has been marked as number ."> for iv dn.v willionl (liis hook' A.— N O, HII t^. — Now let UN see the nii'inoi'iiiidiini linoU iiH to wliicli von Niiy von rcfcrr-cd, to >;ivt' voiii- testimony nhonl ISS'.l nnd IS!Hi? A. — ISM!) was takfii onl of tlint in tin- niiilt-'s liandwritin^, lo and 18!K) Is my own hand writ in;;. (J. — Is tliis hist nifniorandniii hook whirii I iiavc sliown you and which is not marked for identification, merely u copy of the one marked No. ." foi' i(hMititi<'ation, so fai- as tlie years IMS!) and 1N!K» are concerned? A.— All except ISIMI. (i.— IJiit ISSIt is coiiied from that hook hnt it is in iiiy handwiitin^. A.— It i^ )pii'd. (I. — Now without this little hook which is not marked, conld ycui have «;iven yonr testimony ahont the years IMS!» and 1H!H»? A.— I conld tell yon the total catches. 20 (i. — IJiit yon conld not detail them? A. — Not day hy day. H- — And that was hascd entirely upon the information con- tained in the l)o is copied from niimher 5 so that that does not enter int(» it at all? .\. — It is. Q. — This last memornndnni hook which we have heen talk- ing' ahont does not contain an entry which w;is made in t)ie years 18,sn .and 1800, does it? A.— T could ^'ive the daily catches — ' Q. — Can yon answer that question whether those figures wore written in there in 1880 or 1800? A. — No, sir. (The last book referred to, marked nunilier six for identifi- cation.) Q. — This book which has been marked for indentitlcation number six, above referred to, I will ask yon if it is the book which yon stated a moment apo you jtot yonr information from in regard to the years 1880 and ISOt)? A.— This book? "^^ Q. — What was that book yon had in your hand witness? A. — That is what I call the sealing' hook. (|._The sealing hook for what? A.— IS80, 1,S!)0, 18!»1, 18!»2, 180:{, and I think 1804. Q. — The years 18S!) and ISitO are the only ones we are con- cerned in. Show me the jia^cs contaiuinK the memoranda re- lating to those two years. Mr. Siiiin^' made the most of those entries in the Imok from which yon have been testifying did he not? A.— All of the season of 1888 in MehriuK Sea. 5c Q. — Did Mr. Si)rinK give yon that book, has it been in your ]>oss"ssion right ahmg? A.— It has been in my possession right along. Q. — And Mr. Spring is largely interested in a number (jf these claims before the Commission, is he not? A. — I don't know. Q._Yon don't know? A.— I have heard he was. Q._You have stated that yon sealed to the westward of the islands, the Pribyloft' Islands, in one year, and did uot seal Co to the eastward'/ A.— Yes, sir. Q._Yoii sealed iu everv direction from the islands did you not at various times? A.— Sometimes. Never to the east- ward; I never sealed to the eastward of tli(> islands. Q._P„ you know what seals feed upon! tell; various things. Q.—IIave yon not found food in their stomachs when they were opened"? A.— I have at times. A. — I cannot :!:! »lt WfT- ^. <>< .^^^ '^■^:^. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) k // ^/ ^.<^ ^ A % ^ 1.0 I.I l^|Z8 |25 |50 "^" M^H 12.0 |40 IL25 III 1.4 ll£ 1.6 0% 4k. ^ / Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14SS0 (716) 873-4503 c^> ^t^ '*%^ 1 iV 740 f ■•■ ''il " t rnianent in BehrinK 8eu? A.— Not that I know of. Q. — When you come to look for seals you do not look for any pnrtlcnl.ir position on the chart do you? A. — Well, we net around the edge of the bank. Q. — Are there alweys flsh around these sandbanks? \. — 1 never tried to Hsh there; we see flsh at times jumping in the water. Q. — Does the weaiher have nnythinR to do with the num- 20 Iht of seals that a b«»at will take in a season? A. — .\ >j""d deal; it has nearly all to do with it. Q. — And the nkill of the hunters has soinethiuK to do with it? A. — Yes, ;t has something to do with it. Q._A good deal to do with it, has it not? A.— It has not Rot so much to do with It as the weather. Q. — In 1889. Oaptaln McLean, were you acqiuiinted with the sealing fleet that went out of the harbour of Victoria? A.— I know pretty nearly all of them. Q.— And with the catch of the vessels? A.— No, I could 3° not tell you the catches. Q.— Was the "Mary Taylor" out of this port in 188ft? A.— I think she was. q._T1m' "Theresa?" A.— Yes. sir. Q._The "Annie C. Moore?" A.— Yt's, sir. Q._The "Lillie?" A.— I don't know whethe- the "Lillie" Avas. She was lost in 1880 or 18ft0, I think. Q.— Well, if her name was in the rustom's House reimrts in 1880 It was probably since? A.— She had \m>n lost since. Q Q.— And the "reni'lop<'?' A.— Yes. she was out. Q.— And the other "Lillie," was she out in 1880? A.— Yes, sir. Q_The "Sapphire?" A.— The "Sapphire." Q._The '-.Vurora?" .\.— Yes. sir. Q._The "Juanita?" A.— I think so. Q._The "Ariel?" A.— I think so. Q._The "Kate?" A.— The "Kate" was. Q._The "Favourite." of course. The "Maggie Mac?" A. Yes. 50 Q.— "W. P. Sayward?" A.— Yes. a— The "Minnie"? A.- Yes. Q.— "M«»untaln Thief"? A.— Oould not sJiy. (2_"Wanderer"? A.— Yes. Q.— "Hlack Diamond"? A.— Yes. y.— " Heatrice"? A .—Yes. Q.— The "Winnifnd"? A— Yes. (i.— The "Sierni"? A.— I t? A. — After I left Victoria I amy not we them until I come back. Q. — Do you know the vessels that cleared from Sun Fran- cisco or American pt^rls in 1880? A.— I do not. 741 20 30 40 50 60 ^Ltiiigliliii McLciiii — CroMH.) Q. — There weit u uiiuibei- of tlieiii? A. — I could nut tell yon how many. Q. — There wuh u niinilM'r, whh there not? A. — I t-ould not tell of one. Q. — Can yon tell the cateheH in that vear 1885>, except your o*n? A.— I think I can tell the "VV. I'. Sayward's" catch; It waH Honie where about 2,(HM); I won't b<> poHitive. Q.— Was Captain Hpring out on the "Favourite" in 1887? A. — No, sir. Q.— In 1888?? A.— VeH, Hir. (i.— < 'aptain HpriuK wan with you in 1888? A.— Yes, sir. ii. — (JharleH Hprinji? A. — ('luirleg Hprinf;. Q.— What wa8 he doinjc al)out tlie boat? A. — lie went out on a pleatinn; trip. Q. — You mean to Hay that Captain Hprin^ went up on your boat in 1888 for a Hhort trip, and Htill you did not Icnow that he WBH IntereHted in them* elainiH here? A. — I do not queH- tion hig object in Koin^ up, that watt hig buBinefw. I was worl(inK for Charley WprinK, and he was owner of the ship at the time. Q. — Did he himt? A. — ^'"nietimes. Q.— You bad very good huniers in 1887, had you not? A. — Not very good. Q. — Anything unuHual about their Hkill? A. — They were all new men, they did not know very ninrh about it. Q. — IIow many yearn bad Hugliing iMt'n out, or wan that liif) first trip? A.— Tliat was his first trip to Behring Sea to my knowhnlge. Q. — He had iMtm out on the coast b(>fore and had had con- siderable exp«'rience? A. — He was In tlie "Favourite" on the coant that same year. Q. — Had he been out Iwfon' that? .\. — I could not tell you, it was the first year tliat I know of. Q. — (leorge Dislnow was on tlie "Favourite" in 1887, was he? A.— Yes, sir. (J. — Was he a new man? A. — Yes. sir. ii- — FirBt year out? A. — Fii-st year in Itehring Rea, I think, he was out on the coast before, I couldn't say, I think it was the first year. Q. — They used both siM>ar«* and guns in 1888? A. — Yes, sir, both spears and guns. Q.— 1885>? A.— Yes, sir, (he same. Q.— They had better guns in 188!> tluMi in 1888? A.— In 1889 they had some breech loading guns and some muK/.Ie- loading guns. Q. — About the s(>als that you killed. You have embraced in your testimony as to your catch of seals, the total number? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You have embrat-ed hair seals in vour total, have vou not? A.— No, sir. Q. — No hair seals? A. — No, sir. Q. — What do you call wigs? A. — Wigs are a seal. Q. — What is a wig? A. — It is a male seal, a very large one. Q. — Did you embrace wigs? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Are tliey good fur? A. — It is all g«MMl except around the hi*nd and neck. Q. — They are not quite as large as the long or extra long? A. — They are extra larg,-. Q. — Are they as good fur, and do they demand as high a price as what you call the extra long? A. — They demand just as good a price. Q.— And what is the extra long seal? A.— /ixtra large? m I !: I: I'm ,1 , V i i' 1 : 1 Pi M^ 20 742 (Lniifililiii Mi'l.c'iiit — fVoHS.) (J.— Vt'H, «'X(ra liirg<'? A.— That In (lie largOBt mIw witluiiit cuuiitin{r tlu'iii ill aH a wig. Q.— Now flu* wigH and extra large bring about f... Hanic pric**, do tlu'3' not? A. — Yes. Q.— They bring the higliest price for fur seals? A.— Not at all times; some years they do in Loudon, and sonietinieH not. ,Q Q.— You have the wig extra large, and large; what do you eall the large seal? A.— Well, the large seal. <).— That is the designation is it? A.~It is a little above the medium in size. Q. — Between that and tl.e very large? A. — Yes, sir. (j.— Then you have Uie medium and tlie middling? A.— The middling is between the medium and the large. Q.— What is the medium? A.— It is between a pup and a little larger than that one. (i. — Now will you give me the kind of pups among seals that you catch? A.— The brown pup, tlie grey pup, and the black pup. ii- — Tluw kinds of pups. Is their fur worth as much as large seals? A. — No, sir; the brown pup is worth consider- able. Q- — Tliey are worth a great deal less are they not, for one reason, because there is less hide? A. — The brown is good fur but it is small. H. — Now. in your catch of seals that you have given, have you included all tlie pups that you caught? A. — Yes. 30 U- — The grey, brown and black, are in your total catch? A. — We never gel any black; what we call black pups are on shore; I have seen them iii the water. Q. — Hut if you got any black pups you have includ«>d them, have you not? A. — No, I would not take them. y. — Are y<»u positive about that? A -:— Y'es, sir. Q. — You took the grey jiups and the brown ones? A. — Brown, yes. Q. — Y«iu have included those in the total catch you have given? A. — Yes, sir. 40 Q. — You have included the wigs, large, extra large, mediuis. and middling? A. — Yes. Q. — .\nd the enuill, thai is another designation is it not? A.— Small. Q. — A small seal, a wig, an extra larije. large, meiliiim. and middling, besides the pups? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you have included all of those in the total catches, have you not? A. — Yes, sir. Sir O. H. Tui»i)er: — Did he sav "medium" in the chissiflca- Sc *'""? Mr. Dickinson: — Yes, medium. (To witness.) You ni-e (|uite sure you did not embrace hair seals when you took them in ytuir total catches? \. — No, we did not pay the hunters for them. Q. — You have given ycuir testimony today as to tlu' total (tatdies of seal.s? A. — Not that I am aware of. Q. — As my learned friend says, will you swear that you have not included hair seals in your total catch? A. — No, 60 sir. Sir (3. H. Tapper :- I disown It. -That is your own phrase, and not mine. Mr. Dickinson: — I hear it here every day. Your phrase is: "Will you say it on your oaih?" but I pn'fer to say (to wit- ness:) Will you swear tliat you do not embrace hair 8«>Jils in your total catches' A. — I'did swear it to the Iwst of my knowledge. 20 iO 743 (LiiiiKlin Mrlicmi— <'rot«— Ucilin-ct.) hail- hwiIh? A. — My mate Iuih iiuthing to do with it. Q. — But he kept your log and your eateh? A. — I counted the Heals and not th«^ mate, I told him the nuniWi- of BeaU tiiHt eame on b«»nrd, and he entered that in his log. I counted the HealH when they came over the rail. Q. — You Kwear that no hair uealH were ever included? A. — ,0 No, sir. ti. — But the pups always were? A. — The pups. Q. — Will you swear that black pups were not taken and in- cluded? A. — No, sir. Q. — You could not swear to that? A. — No, s'r. Q. — You swear that no black pups were included? A. — No black pups. Q. — But grey and brown pups were? A. — Yes, grey and brown. Q. — And medium, and middling, and small seals were in- cluded with the wigs and extra large seals and large seals in your total catches? A. — All included with the exception of the black pups. Re-direct exuuiiuatiou by Mr. Beique: Q. — Do you remember if you took any hair seals in Behring 8ea? A. — Yes, sir, 1 have taken one or two. y. — Not more than two? A. — I would not be positive; but anyhow they would be very few. y. — There are very few in Behring Hea, I understand? A. — Very few. ti. — Did you lake any grey pups in Behring Sea? A. — 1 might have taken one or two jterhups since I have been go- ing out there. y. — They are very few in Behring Kea also? A. — Very few, we got sonic of them on the coast. Q. — \ ery few of them are found in Behring Sea? A. — Very few, 1 might have caught one. Q. — Had you any quantity of the other pups? A. — No, ^o not many sir. t^. — How were the skins sold as a rule. Did you sell any skins in these years, or do you know what the sales of tho skins were that were «aught in 1887, \HHH or 1M8!>? A.— No, sir. Q. — It did not come within your department? A. — No, sir. Q. — You had nothing to tlo with the sales? A. — I had nothing to do with them. Q. — You have spoken as to the price or value of the "wigs;" have you any iKTsonal knowledge as to this. Had you oc- casion t(» sell fliem yourself? .\. — I did last year. Q. — And it is froni that knowledge you hav«' spoken? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And only of last year? A.— Yes, sir. (|. — Will you say what i«irt of the b«M»k marked No. 5 for identitlcation is in your handwriting? A. — From page '2, dattnl April, 1K!M». to page 17!». Q. — And i»art of the siibsequent entries in 1S!H an* in your handwi-iting also? A. — Yes. sir. Q.-:-Mogt of it is in ycmr handwriting? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — What dat«»8 does the lM>ok include? Mr. Beique:— It is from 1887 to 18rtr.. Q. — The entries previous to page 152 are partly in the handwriting of Mr. Spring? A.— Yes. sir, partly iii the hand< wHting of Mr. Spring. 50 r^ If '. Y. — IIiiH tln' hook rfniainod in yonr ]M)HH('HHion from yt'urto .v«'nr. np Kt (his (iinr? A. — V<'h, hIi-. Hinti- I join«Ml (lie Hlii|). Q. — It i» the Hliip'K lojj, Ih i(? A. — No, h\v. (}.— Wlio kept till' HJiip'H iofi? A.— Tilt' iiiiitr. (j.— WiiH liny <'nti-y iiiihIi> in tin* HliipV lo^ Itook of tin- niiiii 10 Ih'I" of hciiIh tiikcn dnily? A. — I ciiniiot nay. not in nil of tlii* bookM, iMMiinHi' tlit'y IdkI ililfcrt'iif iiiiit*'H. It is vory Holtloni T look ovci' tlifir lo^;. (/. — I>o yon know wlifir tlio hIiIp'h Uta liookH iiro for il.c viirioiiH yen is? A. — Yes. sir. ii. — VNIu'i-c iir<' tlit-y? \. — TIh-v iirc on honnl tlic ship. C} — Will yon hrtii^f llicin Ihtc when yon conic hack? .\. — Yes. sir. Q.— -TTow were all tlic entries made in tliis book niarkc? The <^omniisH>oner on the part of the TTiiited States:— There must be some misunderstanding; about that, pi-rliaps yonr i|nestion is not (|nite what y«ni intended. My Mr. Iteiijiie: (2. — Whieli part of the entries were made frmii day t'l day in this bo«tk marked "No. .'» for ideiititieation"? A. — Rvny day's work is entereti yon mean tlial tliis |iartiart of it was kept and ]>art copied from the log of ISSO. |{y Mr. ISei<|ne: ii. — l»oes this apply to tlie entries made by Mr. Sjirinfi;. and wliieh are also in this book? A. — That was ('0|»ied some time in. I think. 1SS7 or IHMS. (2. — Indiciite what page. .\. — Page S. Q.— It was eoj.ied some lime in 1HS7 or ISStS? A.— Yes. but I would not lie |Mtsitive as tii the year. (i.— It was either in 1SS7 or 1SSS? A.— It niiglit be tlie .'^'ear .Mr. Spring was willi the boat. 4'> 50 60 20 745 (Laiiuliliii Mcl.»'nii— l{«'n> tiiv Hoiiu- tiiiiiKH ill il (litit dtH'H not ri-fcr to HcnliiiK iit all; it iM nut in in.v liaiiilwrilinK- (i. — Yon iann«it K|K-ak an to tlicw pa^cM? A. — I cannot H|irak for tlicni. Q. — Tlu'U tlio liook |iro|M'r hi-KinH at iiajjc 1(» when tin- wai- inp vo.vanf bt'ijins? A. — Vcs, I «'aii nndiTlako to sa.v from tluT*'. ii. — Ir: il on pap* 10? A. — Ych, pa^c 10. TIiIh Ik a kind «»r inventory Iu'IH', and 1 do iiol know anytliiiit; at all about it. I do not know wIk-ii Mr. Spring; wrol(> that 7 and !i^<, tli:it is soiiiftliinK rt'foiTinp to H«>aliii(; loo. Iiiit I do not know what il is. I'af;<'H !>!. !>'-', tK(. tU. ori, .ve referred; it refers only to 1880. IXIH) and the following years, not to any jtrevi«MiH y«'ars? .\. —This jiarl here refers' to IMS!), and this part refers t<» IHtlO on the northern coast, but not in Itehring Sea. (i. — Aiv the entries in your handwriting in this book mark- ed "N'o. fi for ileiitillcatiim"? A. — Soes the number of canoes a|))M-ar in the book Xo. 5 from year to year? .\. — Xo, sir. Q. — The log book. 1 suppose, would show I lie number of canoes? \. — \ot th.Tl log book, but the log book last year would. (J. — The ship's log book wmild show? A. — I think it will. ■ : '■ ■\ ITTI :!lf; m I 746 (Liiiiplilin McLriin — lliMlircfl — Kc crnsH— Ur din-cf.) ii. — I think oiict' ,voii iiuMitioiuHl 12 «-iiiih in IHSU, anil I tliink iiIho.vou lmvt> nit'nlioncd 11 nintH'H in IMS!)? A. — Tlicro w«'n' 11 ninm'H in ISHIK Q.— Wjih it 11 or 12? A.— 11. Q.— In IHHH what van tap nnmhor? A.— In 18H8 it w)iH l.'<, bnt I had pni«*tirall,v inl.v tlu' iih«> of 12, for a man dipd on board on the way up and w«' wiTe nhort a liand. I 10 had l.'t ninu4>H on board. Re-(*roHH-(>xamination by Mr. Warren: Q. — Did you brinj? thiH book, No. 5, witli you to-day? A.— Yt'8, Hlr. Q. — Vou hav«' liad it in your poHH«>H8ion for alnumt a' w»'«'k or t»'n days? A.— Not alwayH. Q.— Where Iuih it bwn? A.— It Iuih bi'iMi at Mr. RodwellV for a while. 20 Mr. Peters:— You may take it for jjrantiMl with regard to all of these books, we Imve taken poss<>SHion of all of them that we eould gvt. Mr. IHckinwHi:— Oh, yes. Tlu* questiim did not refer to anything like that. 30 i^il 40 |i|,|::. 50 60 Redirect examinati«>n of LauKiilin M«'I^>nn was continued Dee. 22, IWMJ, by Mr. «ei(iue. Q. — Will you say what logs you now produce? A. — The logs for 1887, 1888, 1889 and 1890. (i. — For what vessel? A. — For the "Favourite." Q. — Are they the ship's logs? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — iiy whom was this log kept for 1887? A. — It was keyt by myself. Q. — Did you enter, in the ship's log for 1887, the seals as they were caught? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you keep any other book in which you kept the daily catch? A. — Yts, sir. Q. — Have you got that book here? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will you produce it? A. — It is flli'd in court. Q. — You kept this book '>iark«d "No. 11 for identification" from day to day on the ves tiuit book marked, "No. 11, for identiflcation," a 8tat«>ment o\ the daily catch- A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will you give it to me jt'ease? A. — Yes, sir. It com- mences in June and is as f«)lio\'s: On .June Sth, 7; on June 20tli, 1; on July Sth, 4; on July 7th, 12; on July Sth, 12; on July 10th, 1; on July 11th. 25; on July 12th, lit; on July 13tb. 54; on July 15th, 13*; on July 16th, 41 ;'on July 17th, 46; on Jul* 18th, 68; on Julv 21st, 60; on Julv 22nd, 62; <»n July 2: fiiiiKlit ht'torc llii> t\uy» yuH iiifiitioiH'd? A. — riitil July 8(h, I eiitcrt'd ItehriiiK Ht>a on July Utii. Q. — WliJit uu!HlHKulur liunlinK boats and a storn ImuiI. Q. — I lM'li«'v«> yon miUl yt'HtcnIay that tht* Htt-rn iHtat was not much um-d? A. — I think mIh* Kot 42 walH nItoKetlicr, tin* ma to liunt4Hl in lior. CJ. — Did yon l»iv« a whit«' rn'W? A. — Y«'h, bIt. Q. — Two or thr«'<' nun in «'a«*h boat? A. — Tlim' men in tin* n'Kulnr hnnthiK lioatti, and two in tin* Htt>rn Itoat^ Q. — TIow many nu»n altoffi'thor? A. — 23 or 24 ni«'n. Tli« ronuniHHJonorH twtk rccoHH at I oV-lork. 'hi 'M ! HI 20 30 40 t,0 r>o Examination of the witut'MH Lnughlin Mel^nn, waa ron- tinu(>tl in th<> aftt'i-noon of Occ. 22, at half paHt two o'«-lork, l»y Mr. Heique. Kc-diivct «>xaiiiination roniinui'd Ity Mr. Itoiquo: Q.— In 18«7, 1 bt'lifve, the "Favourite went aealing on the roast iH'fore going to Itehring Hea? A. — VeH, air. Q. — You were in her on tlie eoast? A. — No, sir. ti. — Now, in 188H, you went sealing both on the coast and in Kehring Sea on the "Favourite?" A.— Yes, sir. y.— Have you the ship's log book for 1888? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Uy whom was it kept? \. — By the mate. r you gave the other day in yonr examination? A. — No. sir. I made a mistake the other day — I think I said "13 ciinoes." while there was only 13 tn all. (2. — Do you verify fnuii the book you kept at the time as to the number of boats? A. — Yes. sir. Q._What cr.'w liad you in 1888? A.— I had 22 Indians jiiid eight white men, including mvself and the owner, 30 in all. Q. — I propose now to ask you to give the daily catch. I shall ask yon afterwards which were your own entri«'s. and which were the entries of Mr. Spring. Will you give the dally catch on the const fli-st? A. — On the coast the daily catch was as follows: On .Vpril 4tli. 13; on .\pril titli. 12: on April 8th, 2; on April mh. 2(»; on April 12th. 25; on April 13th, 21; on April l»!th. 32: on April 18tli. 13; on April 2(»th, 37; on April 2'st, 7. ^IJIl ■ . ■ ri t •li' lO 74« (LtiHKlilin MfL«'iiii- l{f«lir; on .liiiif lOlli, IL'; on .liiiir Isili, 'i; on .liiiic IIMIi. 1!); on .Iniic l*iMli, I'L'; on .hiiii- LMtli, :tli; on .liiiii' jrilli. .'Ct; on .luiii> -lilli, o. (Ml .lulv 'Jiid, 2; on .liil.v :trt), 2. (i.— Tliiit iH :ill tlic coaHt nilili? A.— Y»'k. hW. (J.— How niaM.v in all? A— r.:,'7 in all. I/. — Will, .voii Ha.v iiiiw, wiiich of llicsf nrr fioni .voiir own lallv' .\. — On Jiino irilli. oiil of .'Ci I lalli l!Mli. out of I!). I lalliKi ill li; on .liin*> 'J.'i. oiil of :i:t I liiljicil in li; on .liinr '.'lilli I lallit-il in '>; on .Inl.v 'Jnil Mr. Spiiii^r lal M«>d. Tlial'H all I tallicil on ilio cnast. Hit H. — .\n(l lilt' luilaiM-c an- Mr. Wprinjf'K «'nlrii'H? .\. — Yci 2o (>. — Now will .v«Mi ti'ivf llic dail.v calrli in Itfliring Boa in IMSH? A.— (Ml .inl.v null. :ri; on .Inl.v fllli, 2; on .Inl.v 14lli. 1»:{; on .lulv l.')»li. 7S; on lul.v Uilli. «•!; on .lul.v I7tli. 41; on .Inlv IS. 2'i; on .Inl.v liUli, 77;" on .lul.v LMMli, S; on .Inly L'IhI, 1; on .Inl.v 'Jl.lli. IS!»; on .Inl.v •_'7lli. S7; on .inl.v L'Stli. lid; on .lulv 2J>tli, 1; anil on .lul.v :SIhI, I. (Ml Auniisl .'illi. 2:\\ on Au>{UhI HIIi. l:{7; on An»jiiMt ll'lli. 10; on .\UKU8l i:{lli. S4; ;UH( 2\h\. .^»7; on .\n>iUHl •-••-'ml. li2;on Au^uHt l.'4tli. 10; on .\u^iih( I'.'illi, Ii4; on AiiciihI l^liili. 3° lilt, and on AujjuhI •_'7lli. \h:\. Q._H(,w inanv in thai in all in Hclifiiin St-a? A.— l.liOl in Hclirin}! Ht-a. Q. — Will ,vou ph'tiKc Hiatc wliirli wen* laliicd in li.v .Mr. HprinK. of tlu' catcli in ItcliriuK Soa? .\. — I lalli<-d on lllli .Inl.v; on llu> l.'itli .Inl.v I lallitnl 2:\ out of 7H, lli«' balam-i' of that da.v was tallit>d h.v Mr. Hpriii);; on ISIIi of .Inl.v I tallied IS out of LM, and tlit' iialant-*' was tallii-d li.v .Mr. S|irin);; on 2]Ht .lul.v .Mr. S|»riii^ tallied; on tlie ItMli .\npiMt the.v were Ao talliod h.v .Mr. Spriu};, and on the 'JOth Au^nHl the.v were tallied h.v .Mr. S]>rin};. ii. — The bahinee waH tallied from .voiir own entrieH made at tlio time in .vour Healing' hook? A. — Y«'h, »ir. Q. — You went to liehriii^ Kea iij^ain in ISS!I on the Hanie veKHol, did not .voii? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — Have .v«Hi the sliip's lojj liook for ISSO'i A. — Yes, si I Q. — H.v whom was it kept? A. — H.v I lie mate. Q.— TJie same mate as in ISSS? A.— \o, sir. Q. — AYlu) was (he mate then? .\. — Mr. Tunier. 5° Q. — Is he in Vietoria! -No, sir. 6o Q. — \Yhere is he? .\. — He is drowned. (J. — ^Yas the dail.v catch entered in the ship's Ior Iwok?- A. — Not in the ship's \ofi. Q — l>id .YOU ke<*p a senlin<; book? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — From da.v to da.v? .\. — Yes. sir. fnmi da.v to da.v. Q. — Have ,von ^ot that hook here hef«»ro .vou? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — \Yill .von sa.v what was the nuinher of canoes .vou had in 1880? .\. — Nine canties and one li; mi .Inly littli. .'Ml; on .Inly '-'IhI, 14; on .Inly i;i:im1, IU: on .Inly L'.'lrd! 7; on .Inly i;4tli. Ktl ; on .Inly iT.tli. 7(t; on .Inly JCtli. I*-'; on .Inly L'Stli, :(; on .Inly L'ittli. 4!l; on .Inly :m>||i, l"7(t. and on .Inly MJst. 1!». On AiipiUNt iMt, IS; on AiifinNt .~)lli, I4!>; on An^rnHl Otli. ID.'i; , on An^iiHt 7tli, 2(:; on An^iiHt tMli, lU; on An^diHt lOtli, 111; ^° on Ai'KiiNt nth, -JS; on AiiKiint 12th, S; on AiiKiist 14tli. 2!; on Anpist l.'itii, fi."!; on An? A.— YcN. Hir. ' (2. — ('an yon aHci'i-tain aH to wlu-tlH-r yon cannlil any tf''«'.V inipH in Iti'iirint; Kca? .\. — Yos. sir. il- — Will yon .-iHiMn-tain, and say whctlii-r yon did or not? \. — YoH. Hir. I caiiKht four. (i. — Yon ninglit four in tlic Iti-hrin}; Son? A. — Y»'h, sir. i]. — Did yon keep a record lor ISSS as to ni'«'y paps also? A. — No. Kir. not in this hook. Q. — WoU, n«»w, did yon ro out scaling in 1S!)()? A. — Ych, sir. ^° (2. — In what vessel? A. — In the same vessel. (J. — You Hcah'd both on the coast and in the Uehrin^' Sea? A.— Yes, ii. — Have you the ship's lo;; book for that year? .\. — Yes, sir. 4;'on Mii.v -.'7(11. ± On •Inni* IhI, :t; on .Inn*' 2n 4lli, :UI; on .hinc 5tU. 57; huD- Ktli. l!0; on .hint' Hlli. IM4I; on .lunc tMli, l«!4; on.lnni' llMli, l*J7; on .lnn«* i:ttli, 5; on •liinc 15tli, 117; on .Inn*- I7lli, I; on .Inn*- istli, 1; on .lun<* lltlli, 5; on .Inm* 2IMIi, 2:i; on .hin«' LMnI, 40; «)n Jnnt' '2'2iu\. !)'J, tin total on lli«> roant? A.— 1.^05. ii. — Now kIv«' tin* total cattli in Iti-lirinK •^•''i- A. — ih\ .lulv ISth 25; on .lul.v llltli, 15; on .hil.v 20tli, lit; on .hil.v 21hI. 45; on .Inly 22nd, 40; on .Inlv S.'tni, Kt; on .hilv 24(11, 47; on .Inly 25tli. 4!»; un .hil.v 20tli. :tO. On AuKUHt 2ii(l, 17; on AnKUMt :!i-«l, 24; on Au^nHt 4tli, Ui; on AnKiiNl 7tli, ill; on AnKnut !Mli, 47; on AnKUHt lOtli. Ki!); 20 on AiiKUHt nth, 281; on AujfUHt 12tli, 2H; on AunuKt l.tth. )»; on AiiKiiHt Utii, n:t; on Au^nHt IStli, 1, and on An^nHt 20tli. I. *i.— What Ih tin* total catch in llchiinij Hca? A.— 1,110 in Mrlii-iiiK Hon. (2.— Mad yon boatH or ciiihm'h in ISOO? A.— Ciuhn'h. Q.— How inaii.v had .von? A.— 1;» of my own Ix'Hidi'K four I picked lip. n. Q. — Includinyt yoni-Hclf? .\. — Ych. Q. — Yon nay that you picked u]i winn- canooH. IIow many did yon pick np? A. — Four. Q. — Wh»'n did ,vou pick them up? A. — I think I jiicked them up on 10th AiitruHt. tlu' lii-Ht day they worked on board of me waH lltli Au^nHt. Q. — IIow many days did they lower thoHo four oano«'B? A. Four. Q. — ran you pivp their total catch Heparnte from the otli- ei-H? A.— About fi4. Q. — It nppear.4 that your best hiwerinp day waH on the l.HtU .Inly, ISOO. in the Itehrinp: Rea? A.— Yew. »ir. Q. — Will you pay when won entered IlehrlnK Rea that y«'ar? A.— On ,Tuly 1ft. Q. — Will yon pay if yon found any lop book on board tlie "Favourite" for l.W»? .\.— Ych. I have n loR book— iiiein- orandiim — 30 40 SJ 60 Mr. DickinHoii: What wuH it? -You Huid HoiuethiiiK about n niemorniidiini. The WitneHs:— It is not in a bij? Iwok like the others; it is kept in a snial! book. Redirect examination continued by Mr. Helqne: Q,— Will you produce that book? A.— Yes, I produce it. K«M>k marked "N«. 12 for identification." Q. — By whom was it kept? A. — I do not know. H. — You cannot swear as to the writinR? A. — No, sir. Q.— Did this book, marked "No. 12 for identification," re main on the vessel ever since? A — Yes, sir. Q. — I sliould have asked von if you kept a record of the Ki-ey pups taken in IS'.tO in the Beliring Sea? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— Will you say whether you caught any grey pups in the Behring Seii in ISJIO? A.— No, sir. Q —You did not ca^oh any? A —No, sir. 30 (l.uiKliliii MiLniii— Kf-«-r«iHM.) U«>criHtH<'Xiniiiiiatioii foiitiiiiitMl \»y Mr. Wiirivn: liriiiK Hmi on the ISth and :!ltth Auk- iiHt, ISiN), iMM-aiiMe your re|K>i't \n that ,voii took one Neal on eaeh ihiy? A. — No, n\v, I do not tliink tliat I did h>wer. Q. — Tile liiHt day you lowered in 1X!N> would Ih' ou Utii AiiKiiHt? A. — Yen, Hir. lO Ci.— In the year 18H!» you lowered hint on the 25th AuKUHt? A. — Yen, Hir. Q.— In the year IHHH you lowered hiHt on the L'Ttli AuKUHt? A. — YeH. Hir, the hint lowerinir wan on the 27th .\UKUHt. Q. — Now, I iinderKtand that on the preHent ocraHion you are teHtifyiuK from hookn that are mainly in your own hand- writinff with the exrcption of the entrien yoii have jfiven aH beiiij; made by Mr. Hprlnff? A.— Yen. Hir! Q. — You are not uninK the Ham4> b«iokH voii had here the other day? A.— No, nlr. Q.— Yon are j»oHitiv(« that, witli the exeeption of tlioHe en- trieR made by Mr. Spring, all the otherH are in your hnnd- writiiiK? A.— V 4 sir. Q.— In the year I •:•(», when you made that large eateh of 2S1 HealH on th»' llth AufcuHt, you had 17 ran«M'H, I take it? A. — YeH, sir, 17 < ;iniK>H. Q. — Aw yii able (■> ntate iiosiiively from yonr bookH aH to whether, or lu, any sealH taken outHide the Behring Hea «»ii the way up, are inelmled in thcHe cntchoH that you have given UH UH being In the Iort to the Itritinh ('(imiiiiNHionerH over here Heeking information aH to your catch in Itehring Hea for the year 1S87 lH*ing 1,054 — and you ntated you had not? A. — No, Hir. (/.— \Yhat waH the tonnage of ilie "Knvourlte?" A. — 80 toiiH. Q. — I HU]»poHe that a boat of the nize of the ''Favourite" can Btay in tlu' Hea a little longer than a boat of connlderably Hinaller tonnage? .\. — Yen, nir. Q. — It ninkeH Home difference, doesn't It? A. — YeH, it iiiakeB a difference. Q. — A little boat or a boat leHH than half the nize of the "Favourite" might be bothered by a Hea which the "Favour ite" would Htand? A. — Yen. Q. — And the lateHt day you ever lowen'd in Hehring Hea wan on 27th AugUHt? A. — Y'«'h, I think it was. Q. — I am Hpeaking now up to ISftl, I do not refer to any date Hlnce that, and vou auHwer, "yes," to my question? A. —Yes. 50 ring (!opied from when he made those figures in the book which you produced here the other day, and which waH marked for identification as No. 5? A.-^ Yes, sir. 40 A.—YeH, on Hat- A. — Since 1 was "Favourite" when 'T^ PI i' III IC 2U 3'^ 40 SO 60 (Lilll^lllill .McLcilll Iff CIOHH.) ti. — WluMT dill Mr. SjHiiiji; do tliiit copying? A. — On boui-a tlu' "Fiivouritf" (i. — Don't you know whoso Inindwritin^ tliis book, niarki'd "Xo. 12 for idontiliciilion" is in? A. — No, sir, I can't toll von. ii. — Yon were asked if ,von liad foniid a log book (»f llu' "FavoiirKc" for ISStt, and ,voii \(] y seals had bet 11 taken by the ''Favourite" in 18S0? A. — No, sir. I miffht have looked in the book, but I never read it thro>it;li. (^. — The entries in (his book s(oi» on (he J^lst July, 18S(!? A. — Yes, sir. (). — .\nd these (iftures in (he marfjin on various jiajres are not in the same handwritinj;; as the body of the book, are they? A. — No, sir. Q. — And they were wri((en (here by Mr. Sprinj;, were they not? A. — 1 cannot say. Q. — Are not these ^Ir. Spring's tigures? A. — I cannot say. ii. — Are they yoiiis? A. — No, sir. H. — \Vho else has written in (his book besides Mr. Spring or you, or has had (he custody of it? A. — It might be Mr. Sj»ring, but I did not s<'e him do it. ii. — Do you know Mr. Sjtring's handwriting? A. — It looks very much like his tigures. Q. — It looks vei'y much like his tigures, doesn't it? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .Tu.ro- dnced, and whi( h is marked "No. 12 (ov idenlitication," and tell me if there is anv entry in tlia( book after .'Ust .liilv, 188t!? A.— No, sir. ii. — You do nol (ind any endies in (o have been nuide cm any day af(e No. sir. ii. — Keferring now (o the book marked "No. 5 for identifl cation," and parlicularly (o i»age 8, which contains a copy, whi( h you said was ma)tu — Kei-ross — Ri»-direot.) book found on i\w "Favoui-ito" in 1K*<7, will you tell me whether or not on that \mgf- then* in any writing other than that made by Mr. Hpring himself? A. — No, sir. Q. — Is there anywhere in thin Imok marked No. 5 for iden- tififatiplies e<]ual- ly to this book nuirked "No. 11 for identification"? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — I have here a book which was used by Mr. Peters, and from which he read in examining the witness, Oaptain Alex- ander McLean, which purports to lie the log of the "Fav«»ur- 4° itc" for 1886, and I ask you to ttim to the entry under date 18th August, 1886. which is a similar date to the one I asked you to refer to in Iwmk marked "No. 11 for identification," and I ask you to tell me, whether or not the latitude and longitude there given in this book, mark«*d "No. 1.1 for iden- tification." corresj»onds with the latitude and longitude on the same day as in the book marked "No. 11 for identifica- tion"? A.— Yes, sir. )' i M 50 Re-direct examination by Mr. Bei<|ue: Q. — When you were asked as to the entries made by Mr. Spring on page 8 of the b«H)k marked "No. 5 or identification" and not co .vou know in whtwe handwintinK the ontrieB under date of IHth. l!»tli and liOth Angnst in the hook marked "No. 11 for identification" are? A. — No. Bir. (i.— Will .vou refer to the log Ixnik marked "Xo. V.\ f«»r iden tirteation." and jMiriKH-tinj; to 1m' tlie loj? book of the "Fa- v«»urite" f«»r 1HS<1 .and wa.v if you know in whose handwriting thiH lMK)k iH? A. — No, sir, I <-anno( say. Q. — In your experience did you find the weather at the end of AugUHl woi-Be than tlu' weather at (lie beginning of Aug- ust, or in .luly ?A. — It generally is worse at the last part of August. (i. — Were you ever in a smaller vessel than the "Favourite" in Hehring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — From your «'xperience, would there be any danger or a Buuiller s<'liooner than the "Favourite to remain in the Hehring Sen until the end of August, and even to the begin- ning of September? A. — No, sir. Re-croBH-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — In this book marked "No. 11 for idt>ntitication" there are entries made in your handwriting? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— And after the'year 1886? A.— After the year 1886. ti- — Tliat is a meni<»randum taken on board the boat? A. —Yes, sir, in 1887. iililliii} i III! I !l 30 The evidence of the following witness, William Cox, was taken for all the cases for 1887 and 1889, out of order by con- sent, and is here printed for convenience. William Cox was calUnl as a witness on the part' of Great Itritaiu, and duly sworn, December 17, 181)6. 40 Examined by Mr. I'eters: Q. — Wlu're do you live Captain Cox? A. — In Victoria at pn'sent. Q. — You hav'i lived in Victoria for how long? A. — Since 1S8S. i}. — I believe you ar«' a native of Nova Scotia? A. — Yes, sir. I was born in Nova Scotia. (i. — I believe you came around in the schooner "Sapphire?" A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In what year? A.— We left in 1887. Q. — .And vou got here in 1888? A. — Yea, sir, in February, 1888. Q. — Were you mate of the "Sapphire?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How long did it take you to come around in the "Sap )»hire?" A. — We left Halifax on 1st .Tune and arrived here about the middle of February. Q. — What crew did it take to come around? A. — There was a captain and two mates. Q. — .\nd how many able seamen? A. — Five, I thinlc. 60 Q. — .\nd the cook? A. — Y«>8, sir. Q. — tMd you know anything about sealing up to that time? .\. — Nothing. Q. — Will you be kind enough to t«'ll me the tonnage of the "Sapphire?" A.— She was 12:» tons registered tonnage. Q. — She was brought around here for whom? A. — E. B. Marvin & Co. Q.-Did vou Ko sealing in the "Sapphire' in 1888, 1889 and 1800? A.— I did. 50 lO 20 30 40 50 (JO 755 (>Viii. r«..\— IMn-it.) y. — III I'iM'h of tlivtfv ycai-H? A. — Eiu'li of tbeBt- years. Q. — In 18S8 joH wont in what i-apacity? A.— As mate. (i. — And in ISSJ) you w«'nt an captain? A. — Yes, sir. g.— And till' same in l«M»? A— Yes, sir. Q.— In 1888 did slu' carry wiiiti- men or Indians? A. — Indians. Q. — How many canucs did slie liave? A. — I tliinli she had nine in 1888. Q. — You are now sfiealiing from memory? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And how many men altogether? A. — There were 18 Indians, three aailors, the mate, tli(! captain and tlic co<»k. Q. — Did she hunt tliat year witli guns or spi'ars? A. — duns and spears Q.— Hoth? A.— Yes. Q. — Did slie Inint with any boats besides tlie canoes? A. — Yes, sir, one — tlie stern boat. Q. — Was the stern boat used generally, or only occasional- ly? A. — Only occasionally. Q. — The bullv of your hunting that vear was done by In- dians in canoes? A. — In canoes, yes sir. Q. — \Vas the bulk of it done by guns or spears? A. — They used both. Q. — Did thev. on all occasions, take out guns and spears? A.— Yes. Q. — So that tliey could use eitlier if they thought fit? A. — Yes. Q.— 1 believe jou kept the log of the "Sapphire" for 1888? A.— No, Q. — I want you to look at this book you now produce, mark- ed on the back of it "Schooner 'Sapphire,' Skin Hook, 1888. 188!) and 18!)0." A.— Yes, sir. Q. — For the year 1888 I want to ask j'ou who kept the book? A. — Captain Petty. Q. — Was he captain of the vessel? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You were the mate? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Where is Captain Petty? A.— He is dead. Q.— Was this book also kept in the years 1889 and 1890? A.— Yes. Q. — Who kept that book during these years? A. — I kept it. q._Ih it all in your handwriting? A.— It is all in my handwriting? Q._In 1889 and 1890? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— And for 1888 it is all kept in Captain Petty's hand- writing? A.— Yes. Q._Does this book, f(»r tlie year 1889, contain an acount for each hunter on board that sliip. sliowing the amount of seals caught by him, and the amount earned by him? A.— That is it. Q.— It shows that? A.— Yes, sir. Q.—Was that the object for wliich the book was kept? A. — It was to keep their accounts. Q.— That was the object? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Will you tell me when the book was made up? A.— Either in the evening or in the morning. Q.— Was it made up from day to day? A.— Yes, from dav to day. Q.- For each man? .V.— Yes, for each man. Q._; will take one man. for instance, here is Charles Uisho]». that is one man's name, and under that is an account, dav bv day. sliowing the number (»f seals he had caught, what he' was entitled io and credited for them? A.— Yes, sir. Q._Opposite that i^ the time you finally settled with him? A,— Yes. Q._Sliowing the settlement? A.— Yos. i ' 'hi I i I ■ "■I H ■ 1 i, ■■:'; I . 1 , A ■ii . i: 1 Pf|':' 'i ■' 1 !vi:! : t \- : ^ hi iii !il,i;i i' f 10 20 30 40 50 60 756 (Win. Ox — I)ii-tM-(.) Q. — Tht'se iiieu hunted in pairs? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Ana the iiceouut of the two men that hunted together was kept togef'lier in one account? A. — Yes. Q.— And separated when they came to the total? A.— Yes. y.— Tlie hunter got a dollar and tin steerer got a dollar; there were two dollars for each skin— une to the hunter, and the other to the ste-.-rer? A.— Yes. Q. — \Va8 that payment nuide irrespective of the size or !r.kin of the seal? A. — Everything. Q.— Did you catch, in the* Itehring Sea, any quantity of whaf are called "grey pups?" A.— 1 do not remember ever catching any grey pups. Q. — As a matter of fact they are not caught there? A.— They are rare. Q. — Now, this book, as you say, contains the accouQt of each man separately? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have you lately gone through that book, and from it taken a statement showing the amount of seals caught jht day in tlie year 188»? A.— I did, yes. Q. — When did you start on tlie sealing trij* in 188!>? A. — About the 1st .laniiary. Q. — We will leave alone altogether your South Coast catch. Did you go to IVhring Sea? A. — I did, yes. Q. — About when did you begin tishing in Kehring Sea? A. — It began on July 4th, it was then, I think, 1 entered the Sea. Q. — And you fished until when? A. — Until the last day'of July. Q.— You then left? A.— Yes. Q. — Why? A. — I was afraid of being seized. Q. — You left on account of fear of seizure? A. — 1 heai'd tell of tlie seizures and left. Q. — YoH have made up this statement from this book care- fully? A.— Carefully. (/. — Can you giv»> me from day to day the number of seals caught in the month of July by your ship? flive me the date tlrst, and then the number of seals. A. — It is as fol- lows : On July fith we caught 1 ; on July 6th, 2; on July 8th. 0; on Julv !)th." HTt; on Jnlv KUh. :<7; on July llth, 148; on July 12tii, 4(i: on July l.tth, 40; :t; on July 15th. 62; on Julv 18th, 45; on July l!)th. 111; on July 21st, 15; on July 22nd, ioi; cm Julv 2:kd, »; on July 24th, 285; on July 25th, 1!»5; on Julv 2(!th."i>c'ne«1 un Huveral oecuHiong, as Hbown in the book? A.— Yes, sir. Q, — Do yoii mean to mxy tliat every one of these dajs were lowering days, and that they lowered the boats with the ex- ception of the Urst two? A. — I cannot say whether the boats were lowered all these days or not. Q. — You might get seals, of conrw, without lowering the boats? A. — Yes, for these two days the seals might have been shot from the vessel. Q. — That is with regard to the year 18Sfl; now with regard to the vear 1890. Did you vourself also personally keep this book? ' A.— I did. Q. — And the entries are in your handwriting? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Have you taken off the number of seals caught day by day by the "Sapphire"? A. — I have. Q. — Will you be kind enough to give them to me? A. — Yes. Q. — This is for Behring Sea alone, is it? A. — For Behring Sea alone. Q. — Now give me the date and number of seals you caught? A.— On July 15th we caught (53; on July Ifith. 2; on July 17th, 3; on July 18th, 21; on July IJUh, 38; on July 20th, 48; on July 21st, 3; on July 22nd, i5; on July 23rd, 5- on July 25th, 40; on July 20th, 40; on July 28th, 18; and on July 20th, 0. Q. — Now give us the catch for the month of August? A. — On August 3rd we caught 8; on August 4th, 7; on August 0th, 05, I think, but theiv is a blot here; on August 7th, 17; on August 8th, 22; on August 0th, 73; (m August 10(li, 102; on August lltii, 37; on August 13th, 1, and on August 15th, 0. Q.— What is the total? A.— 742. Q. — That is up to what date? A. — Up to the 15tli August. Q. — Why did you leave on 15h August? A. — The Indians would not work any longer. Q. — And you left on 15th August? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How numy canoes had you in that yt'ar, 1890? A. — I had 17 canoes and two boats. Q. — And were you using gtms or spears? A. — They had both guns and spears. Q. — And the Indians mutinied and would not work? A. — They would not work. Q. — What was the nmtter with the Indians? A. — They want" d to go home. Q. — Did you have to go home? A. — Yes Q. — Was there any talk of seizure in 1890? A. — No. Q.— 80 that you left the Behring Sea on 15th August? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What was the weather like that year for fishing where you were? A. — It was bad weather in July and August — a bad season. Q. — In addition to the information you have given us, does that little book show the position where you caught these seals — I mean that list you have in your hand? A. — It is copied from the log book. Q.— You have the log book of the ''Sapphire" for 1889 and 1890? A.— Yes. Q. — Will you be kind enough to tell us who kept the log books? A. — The mates kept the log books. Q. — Were they kept under your supervision? A. — They were. Q. — Are you In a position to say whether they are correct or not? A.— Yes. Q. — Did you see them from time to time? A. — Yes. Q. — That is the regular log, from time to time? A.— Yes. wm 2i 758 Mm. ^ 30 40 50 60 (Will, fox— IHr«<«.) Q.— TluiJ in IIm' i-»'t{nl«r loj; Ittuik Utv 1S8!'? A.— Yts. (i.— That loK wiiH ki'pt by 11m' mate? A. — Yes. y.— Ih it UHHal for the mate to k«'t'|) tin- log? A.— Y«'h. sir. Q.— Wliat wa8 tlK' nanu? of tlw mate? A.— It wan my brotlHT ill ISSi). Q.— Wlieiv i» .voiir Itrotlwr? A.— He Ih HittiiiK in rourt now. Q.— Did you take off from llic log flic |Hmiti«>n wlifir you wcr*' at tlu' dati'8 von fiol (lu'm- himiIh? A. — I did. Q.— Did you do tlie same in 1890? A —I did. Q.— Who* kept tlu' ion in IHiMt? A.— Tli«' mate. Q. — That was your hrotli»'r al»o? A. — No. Kir. (i. — What Ih his nani«>? A. — llarriH. y. — Wheiv is lu'? A. — lie in in Victoria. Q. — As a matter of fact, for these two years have you taken <»tr the ]M)sition in which you wei-e at the time that these seals were cantflit? A. — V<'s. ii. — Now (hen. look a1 any date you like there, take about the end of July, 1SHi>, and the end of July, 1890, tell me how far ajKirt yon were in your jtositions. (Jive it in rough figures, 1 do not want to go very close to it? A. — About SO miles. Q. — Taking the rribyiolT Islands as a starting jMiint. where did you fish, north, south, east or west, in the year 1889? A. — To the westward. Q. — Did you fish pretty much in the sii'-ie |Mmiti year 1889 because you thought it was safer — voii undeiKtaiid I am sjM^iking about 1889? A.— Yes. Q.— Where did von fish in 1890? A.— I was all over the Kea. Q. — Did you g<) to the w«'stward of the i.slands? A. — 1 did, sir. Q. — How far east did yon go?A. — About 80 or 90 miles. Q. — Did y«Mi catch seals there? A. — 1 did not bw any. Q.— In what year? A.— 1890. Q. — Yon caught ncuK'east? A. — None. Q. — Where did you catch your seals in 1890? A. — To the westward and tli>' northward. Q. — What canoes had yon in 1889? A. — I had 15 oanoes and a stern boat. Q. — When you say that the Indians wanted to go home, what did they do? A.— They broke their spears up. and threw their paddles over board. Q- — Was there any use slaying iiny longer? A. — No. Q.— How was the weather g'ttiiig when that happened? A. — It was getting better. Q.— Had it been rough bef<)re that? A.— Yes, it had bci-n a bad season. Q.— Had weather for how long? .\. — The weather right along was bad. Q.— You say that it was getting finer? A.— It was, yes. ;59 (Will. ('»>X— IHlt'Ct— ClOHH.) Q. — Now (lid .v«ii liwh any {K'.vt of Itvliriiig Hl-ii i!i IK91? A. — I did, jeH. At 5 o'clock the Coram litBioiiera roae. 20 10 rontinnntion of direct exnminntion of William Cox by Mr. ret»*r8, n«'L'. IS, 181>«: Q.— You did not go to Behring Sea in 1888 at all? A.— No. sir. ii. — And tin* book calhtl the seal b«H)k of Nehooner •'Sap- phire" which has be<»n produced here already and which tihows the catch for 1888 does not refer to seals caught in Behring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — And in addition to that it dm's not show the catch that tliat schooner made in 1888 on the southern coast? A. — No, sir. Q. — It only shows the catch made from Victoria, that on the northern trij*? A. — Yes, sir. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Captain Cox, what was tlie reason that the "Sapphire" did not go to Behring Sea in 1888? A. — 1 couldu't hardly 30 tell sir. H. — You know no reason why the "Sapphire" did not go to B«>liring Sea in 1888? .\. — Only heard the cajtiain say he was afraid to go in. y. — Afraid of being seized in 1888? A. — Yes, sir. (I. — Where is the captain? A. — lie is dead. y. — u had predy good sealing iu 1888? A. — We had a small crew. Q. — But the sealing per man was jH-elty good? A. — Yes, sir, very good. Q. — It was fully up to the average per man was it not? A. — 1 could not answer that question. Q. — What is your best recolle«'tion and knowledge upon that subject? A. — Well, we did not go on the grounds that year Q. — But it was fully up to the average sealing per man was it not? .\. — I have never made it up. g,—IIa\e you the book for all the catehes of 1889 and 189(»? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What is that book you have in the oflice? A.— It is all the men's accounts and the expenditure of the schooner. Q. — Kept on the schooner? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What is it called? A.— That is our account book for the men. Q. — It was kept on the schooner from day to day? A. — Yes, sir. Q..— The details are not in that book? A.— No, sir, y. — 1 thought you said the details of the catch for 1888 were in that book? A.— The total from day to day Q.— The total of the schooner's catch by days is in that book? A. — Yes, sir, not itemized. Q.— And the entries were made at the time on the schoon- er? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— That covers the same period that this book you have testified from covers? A.— We have a separate book for «'ach vear. It covers the same period. Q.— Those three books then are for 1888, 1889, and 1890 that you have? A.— I have not got them sir. 40 50 60 4 h 'I ■ i \i\-n\ f I ;6e itiiilii ''T'I'II lO 20 30 (Wm. Cox— CroHii.) Q.— Where ai-e thej? A.— We hand the bill in yearly to the office. Q. — Those books that were handed in that were Itept on the ■hip of the catc'h from day to day, were for tlie years 1888, 1889 and 1800? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And were kept from day to day? A. — Were kept from day to day. Q. — Covering the same p(>riod then as the book which yoii have testified about entitled "Schooner 'Sapphire,' Second Book," for the same period, marked "For identification. No. S?" A.— Yes, sir. Q. — These are the log books when vou were master for 1889 and 1890? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Entitled "Schooner Sapphire, 1889," and "Schooner •Sapphire' 1890" respectively? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And you have given the location of your ship at diff- erent dates from these books? A. — Yes, sii-. Q. — Now In either book — these are the logs, are they? A.— The ship's logs. Q. — Kept by you? A. — Kept by the mate. Q. — Under your direction? A. — Under my supervision. Q. — Did you look at the logs every day? A. — I could not say every day. Q. — Do you take the position of the ship yourself? A.— Always do if I can. Q. — Did you see it was properly entered? A. — I marked it up and compared to see that the log was properly kept. Q. — In the logs there was no entry of catches? A. — No sir. Q. — You never knew a ship, did you, that did keep it in the log? A. — I could not say that. Q. — Did you ever know one that did? A. — I don't know anything outside of my own log. Q. — VVhen you take an observation and enter the latitude and longitude, what time would you take the observation? A. — In the forenoon and in the afternoon. Q. — Now, whi'n would you enter the position of the vessel if you ever entered it at midnight? A. — In the log. Q. — Yes. A. — We never entered the |>OHition at midnight in the log. Q. — Made no entry for midnight? A. — Kept a log slate. Q. — At what time would you enter the men's a«'«'ounts of the seal catch of the day? A. — Sometime in the evening, if we had time, and sometimes the next moniing. Q. — Did you ever enter the latitude and longitude that yo'i made the catch? A. — It was always in the log book. (}. — You mean the entry of latitude and longitude would be S'^ from the daily observations, would it not? A. — And the sights we had taken. Q. — Your last actual observation would be taken at noon, would it not? A. — In the afteraoon. Q. — What time? A. — Any time we could get it; three or four o'clock. Q. — Before or after the day's work was over? A. — B<'fore. Q. — And how far would the men go from the ship in (he sealing business? A. — Oh, I think on an average four, five gQ or six miles, sometimes further than that. Q. — Out of sight? A. — Yes, they would go out of sight. Q. — I notice occasloually in the log book entries like this: "This day's log contains a strong gale of wind from south- west and a heavy cross sea." You recited that "this day's log contains" instead of setting in the log that it Is a strong gale of wind from sou'west and a heavy cross sea. I find that in several places in August, but find no corresponding method of entry for July. In July you entered "This day commenced 40 lo 20 30 761 iWni. Vox — CroHH.) with u Htrong west b^ Houtliwt'Nt biiM-Ki>, iiiidniKlit hiiiik'." And for inMtiiii<-«', on July ItTh, '*TliiH day coniuuMitrd with a stronj? oaHlerly bm-ie." A.— Is tliat 188»? Q. — This is IS^U. Have ,tou any explanation an to the change of the nieth(Ml of entii-inK? A. — In AuKtiMt, IHHH, we were not on the sealinR groiindH ho I did not examine the log par- tienlarly then at all. Q. — I wanted to see if you had any explanation of why it seemed to recite the contents of some other Iniok in one place and not in another? A. — I could not say. Q. — You are perfectly clear that you were in there in Aug- ust, 1889? A. — I was there a few days, but I had left the sealing grounds. Q. — On or about when? A. — We come out of the Hea, I think about the 4th .August. Q. — You are quite positive about that? A. — I am, I feel certain the night of the .'{rd or— Q. — Came out of the Sea? A. — I think it was in the morn- ing. Q. — This is no doubt the log from which you testified, marked "Schooner 'Sapphire,' 1880?" A.— Yes, sir. Mr. Dickinson ; — I desire to have it marked now "for ident- ification." (It was marked "No. 9," for identification.) Q. — Do you know of the catches of any other year in the sea? A. — Not positively. Q. — Did you know the sealing vessels in the years 1888 and 1889? A. — I know a few and s]ioke a f«'W. Q. — Can you give nie the names of a few that you spoke? A. — I spoke the "Pathfinder," the "Annie C. Moore," "Maggie Mac" and the "Albion." Q.— What year was that? A.— 188!». Q. — Did you see anything of the "Heatri<'e"? A. — No. Q. — The "Theresa"? A. — I don't remember se<-ing lu-r. Q.— In eitlier year. 1889 or 1899. did yr her on the sealing grounds. 40 SO i :r. il. m m) !' i m Ijilliiiii ^iit'ij nil I 20 762 (Will, ('ox — ri'OHH.) H. — You iTiiM'iiilM-r hIm- whn mil? A. — I could not hiiv tliiil. Q.— The ".Iiiaulta" in IMIMI? A.— In IH»0. y. — HciilluK? A.— 1 did not we her on Ihe grounds. Q. — Did you Bee lier HealinK uiiywliere? A. — I saw lier Fouie place on tlie coast. Q.— The "Sea Lion?" A.— I did not see her sealiiiR. g.— Tlie "Walter L. Rich?" A.— I do not remember of sight ing her. Q.— The "Ocean Helle?" A.— No, sir. Q. — Now did .vou see any sliipH from the Htates? A. — The "Alger" is the only one 1 remember of 8|H>akin}; in 18!K>. Q. — Any otli.rs, whether you spoke them «tr not? A. — I think I H|H)ke the "ilessie," of Portland. Q. — Any others, wlietlier you spoke them or not? A. — I don't remeniTier. Q. — Still there may have been others that you saw that you cannot remember? A. — There may have been. Q. — Now, the Indiam- quarrelled witli you, broke tlu'ir pa(Idles and s]N*ars. A.— Tn 1H9(). Q. — What was the trouble with the Indians? A.— They wanted to go home. Q. — They were not afraid of being seized, I suppose? A. —Not in 1890. Q. — Were there bad storms? A.— It was dirty weather. Q. — Was that the reason for quarrelling? A. — One man was sick. Q. — Dirty weather, tell us what you mean by that? A. — 30 Well, if I rememlter aright, it was not very heavy but just so that we could not work to advantage. Q. — The Indians did not think it would be profltable for them? A. — They wanted to go home. Q. — Did that have anything to do with it. The Indians wen* being paid for the seal skins they took were they not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — An Indian is usually ready when he is ofT sealing to make what money he can, is he not? A. — Yes, sir. when he is out there, but when they take a notion in their heads money don't stand in the way. Q. — The only notion you know they took in their heads was they wanted to go Iiome because of dirty weather? A. — Well, as I say there was one sick Indian aboard; the Indians were all afraid he would die and be a sort of a Jonah. Q. — They are supei'sititious about that are they not? A. — Very. Q. — Did the man die? A. — He died shortly after they came home. Q. — You think that was the only reason why they wanted to go home? .\. — That is the only reason they gave me. Q. — I thought you said a moment ago that tlie weather was dirty? A. — I say the weather was dirty and there was a sick man. Q. — I would like to ask you whether the catch of seals is classified into wigs, extra large seals, large seals, medium seals, middling seals, small seals, gray pups and brown pups? A. — Aboard th<' vessels? Q. — Are they classified? A. — Aboard the vessels? Q. — No, I am asking yon if they are classified in the trade? A. — They are not with us, not in Victoria. Q. — Do you keep the sk'ns separate *' A. — No, they are all together. Q.— But you know the cloKsiflcation to which I refer evi- dently? A. — 1 have heard of them being classified. Q. — In the sealing business? A. — Not in our part. Q.— Not in the sealing business at sea? A.— Not at sea no. 40 SO 60 lO 20 30 40 iO -'''3 (Win. «'((x -('roMM — Uf (lirt'cl.) Q. — l*u ,vuu kiiuw <.'a|>Uiiii Laiit(liliii MtL«-iin? A. — I do. Q. — Ih' Ih a M-ah'r of altoiil •'•<• MaiiM* fxiKTlfUci' n>« your- Bt'lf? A. — lit' wa8 luTt' iH'foro .lU". (^ — Voii know liiiii prcltv wrll. tlial lu' in a mail mliri'ly faiuiliar with the buHiiifH<4? A. — Voh, sir. ii. — And you iievor lii>ard, in tlu* Hfiiiiii}; biiHiut'HH, of kit'p- iuK I'iaHBifientiuii at aval A. — I never did. Q. — In .vour knuwIt'dKf of liiowii and gray piipH, v/vrv thvy |>nt rit;lit in witli llit> otlicr h«mIh? A. — AJtoKetlior. Q. — You ki'i'p no •u-count of (lii* nuniticr of Rriiv pups .von get? A,— No. Q. — Nor of tlio brown piipn jou ra*cli? A. — Xo. Q. — Nor of tlie niiiiiber of siiiall lealH von cnteli? A. — No. Q. — Nor of tlic numtier of liifdinni or niiddiini;? A. — No I keep no rei'oid. Q. — Nor of tin' nniitl)f'r of wiRR? A. — N'o. sir. Q. — And in the Hfiiteineiit you linvc pivcn in your direct testimony you liave i-ailed tliem aii KeaiH and estimated tliem as a part of tlie ratcli? A. — Yes. sir. Re-direet examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — You were asked, Capt. Cox, witli regard to anotlier book tliat is kept in tlie oftiee. Wlio ke ps tliat bo.ik? A. — Tlu* Captain keeps tlie book. Q. — Wliere is it now? A. — ^Ve liandtHl it in to our owners. Q. — >Vlio is your owner? .\. — E. 11. Marvin & <^o. ii. — And tliey have tiiat Imok? A. — I HUppo.>'(> lli'y Iiave. Q. — At least you liave not got it? A. — I haven't got it. Q. — And that book partieiilarly kei'jm an aecount of tlie articles sold tin.- ci-ew, and the book that you have does not give it at all? A. — No. Q. — And this is the book yofl liappened to have in your pes session? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you produced the book that you had? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You wer»' asked about some entries in that log book, where it is stated tliat this day comnieiici'd with such and such weather. That log book was kejit by your mate? A. — lly my mate. Q. — Your mate, when in Behring Sea, was your brother? A. — Yes, sir, t'larence Cox. Q. — And on the coast who was your mate? A. — Stoker. Q. — So that so far as the coast catch is concerned the log book was kept by the mate Stoker, and so far as the Kehnng Sea catch was concerned, was kept by your brother. (Marence Cox? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You weri' asked by Mr. Hickinson as to certnih ciassi- ftcation of seal skins, and particularly, you nieuti«»ned gray jmim. Now we already have before the romiiiissioiiers what a gray pup is. 1 want to ask this question; as a matter of fact, did yon catch any considerable number of gray jnips in Hehring Sea? .\. — Very few. Q. — They are caught where? A. — On the coast. Q._\Vhiit do you mean by "very few"— what percentage would you say? " A.— 1 don't remember of ever getting from 'memory over «)ne or two in a season. Q._So you may say it is almos * .at they are nil — the gray pups? A. — Yes, sir. Q"_What ai-e the classeH of sk'ns you get in Behring Sen? A. — A great many of these large skins. Q. — So far as jnips are concerned, yon pet very few? .\. — Very few. O.— On the fruM«'XHniiniition by Mr. DirkiniMtn: Q. — You do not inHtnifl ,v<»ur iiumi not to tiiki* ifri'.v piipH If th«\v H«M' thrni? A. — Nt'V«'r. y. — You do not tt'll tlH'ni no* to taki' thi'ui? A. — They brlUK anything th«>y run K*'t. Q. — Kxc«'|it hair wuIm, I Mup|M>M«>? A. — Y<*«, nlr. (i. — Th(>y hriuK uvy |»u|m <»■■ brown pupH, Huiall HealH or middling H(>alH, or w\gn, or largt' HealM or extra Healt* — what- ever eonieH tlieir way? A. — Anythini; tliey can brlnj; nlnmrd they briuK- Q. — And they gt't credit aeeordinjjly? A. — Yen, Blr. Re-dlrect examination reHumed by Mr. Peters: Q. — On the queHtitMi »»f hnir Healw, do you |{«'t ""y quintity of hair HealH in Melirini; Hea? .\.— Oil, I think nint-e I have lM'«'n H(>alinti: two or three have eome altoard. The ConimiMHioner on the part of the Tnited HtateB: — Did your hunterH p't a full lay on the pupB? A. — Yen, Hir. The CommiHHioner on the part of the Tnited Staten: — They count the Hanie aH a full i;rown Heal? A. — Yen, your UoniHir, everything that comeH alxmrd. Mr. lVter»:— That i-^ in Itehrint; H*^? A.— On the coaHt and every place. il. — Since yoi' ha v. iieen hunting? A. — The tlrst y«ir or two I think they k<>I >*>x bitB. Q. — What for? A. — For (jrey pups. Q. — Now what is the ruh'? A. — They get full pii.v fiw everythinR Q.— Since when did that come in? A.— Since 1891. Q.— Kut prior to 1891 they got bIx blta? A.— Six bitH. Re-croas examination roBumed by Mr. DickinRon: Q. — Whether you pjjy bIx bits or f 1 or |2 or f 5 for the lay, whatever the price is, when yon give the statement of the nunib<>r of Heals taken yon have includ(>d pups, have you not, in your testimony and in your book? A. — Everything is in- cluded. SO William Tliomas Bragg recalled out of order by consent, December 18. 189fi, on the pai-t ot (Ireat Britain, as to all cases except the "Carolena," and his evidence is printed here for convenience. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — You were on board the '"Maggie Mac" at one time, were - you not? A. — Yes, sir. ^ Q.— Will you tell me in what year? A.— 1889 and 1890. Q. — We will contlne you first to 1889. In what capacity were you on boord that ship in that year? A.— Hunter. Q- — Will you tell me how many hunting boats you had? A.— Five hunting boats and the stern boat in 1889. Q- — How many men did she carry altogether? A. — I can- not tell you the exact number, but it was somewhere between 19 and 20. ^^w -65 I Will. T. Ilnijrn— IHml.) Q. — Hlif would liiiv«' tift*'«*n iiicii to iiiaii the iHiutH? A. — V«ii, »lr. (i. — .\nd tlifii liow iiiiin.v oIIicim would hIic liiivc? A. — Tliu t-aptHln, tli(> unit**, tlit* riNik iind tli«- i-iihiii lio,v. Q.— And thnt wfl« ill!, wiih it? A.— I think llitit wiim all on lii'f that ,v«*iii'; I do not rniiiniluM- whi'th<>r tlio iiiati- liad 0110 Of two nii-n in IiIh \un\f. I would not li«' rt'i'tain. ,Q H. — Who wan raptain of that vt-KHcl? A. — UimM. Q. — Who wan mate? A. — A man. I thiiiK, by thf naiiit' of Frant-iH DaviH. in ISSi). that Ih foi part of tin* mmihou. (i. — In that year whcio did .von wal? A. — On thi- count of California, Ort'Kon, WaHhinffton, Vant-onvor iHland and Di'lir- in^ Hca. (i. — Do you ri'monilMT wIumi you wont to Itidirini; S«'a tliat y«'ar? A. — I do not rcnu'nibi'r tlu> oxnvt date, but I think it WUH altoiit tlw fli-Ht wiH'k in July. Q. — Now do you n-monilMT the total oatt-li for that your? 20 A. — I liavo tho total catch lu>r«'. Q. — Hut do you rcnM'nilM'r from your own knowlodgi'? A. — Xo. I do not rcniftiilH'r tlio -xact catch. Q.— Can you tell me the number of souIh you oauKht; you Hhip|M'd UH luinttM' that year? A. — 1 had 4!(7. Q. — IMd yoii catch any of tluiHc o y«»n ri'iiicnibor how many? A. — I do not. Q. — Do you itMii«'iiib«'r how many you caught in Koliriu); Sea? A.— I do not. Q — All you can give me from your iiK-mory Ih your total 30 catch? A. — My own total catch. Q. — I iM'lieve you kept a meiuorandiim book, but you did not keep it all youi'Helf? A. — I had a memorandum book that was kept by niyHelf. but the eiitrieM were not made fnmi day to-day, and I would not rely on the accuracy of it. of. (i. — You were paid on that, were you? A. — 1 was paid, yes. Q, — Were you out in the year 1S9(»? A. — I was. Q.— In what veswl? A.— The "Majjuie Mac." (2.— What trip did you take in IHrtO? A.— Tlie same trii.. Q. — You went to Hehring Sea? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Do you reiiiemlter wlien you went into the Hehring Sea? A. — 1 do not. Q. — It was in .Inly? A. — It was some time in July, abi. t the first part of July. Init I do not reiiieinl»er the date. Q. — Do you rememlK'r wlien you left the Sea? A. — I no- tice in that book that the last day we hunted was the 25th August. Q. — Is that correct so far as you remember? A. — I think it is. Q. — Can you tell me for that year what your catch was? A. — I beg your ))ardon, that 25th August was 18K9, and I can- not say w lat was the last day we hunted in 1890. (i. — Do .\ou remember your catch for 1890? A. — No, I do not remember the catch for 1890. Q. — ^YeI•e you ever on the ".\niiie ('. Moore"? A. — I was. C>° Q.— In what year? A.— In the year 1S91. Q. — I will not go into that, but just tell us who was the captain of the "Annie C. Moore" in 1891? A. — Captain Hackett. (i.— Who was th«' captain in 1890? A.— Dodd. Q. — Wlu're is Captain Dodd? .\. — Captain Dodd is dead. Q.— Who was the captain of tlu! "JIaggie Mac" in 1889? A.— Dodd. 40 50 ;ii(«(. Will. <)'l.<'iiiv--I»iirc(.) ii? A. — Yt'K, sir. ii. — Mcforc ,von lcf( on llii" iiortlicrn trip c'litcli .von ;;ot on llic sondicrii tiip? A.— Wf wciil into San FniiK-ist-o sonic time in Marcli, I IliinI; it was. aiitl what skiim wc had at lliat liiiic wc landed. ,Q Ki. — What did von do th"ii? .\. — When wc came out of there we started in scalin;j ajjaiii. We never came to \'ic- toria. we hiinled mi (he coast id' ralifornia, Orejjon, Washin;;- toii, Vancouver's Island, Alaska and down the Peninsula to Sand Toint. Q. — What did voii do there'.' A. — We put our skins on Ixmrd a schooner that was chartered to lake the skins home. (i. — So that at Sand I'oiiit von landed all the skins von had at that lime, witli Ihe exception of what you landed in San Francisco? A.— A\'o did not land them at Sand Point, but 20 jiiit them on hoard a schooner to he shipped to X'ictona. ti- — Kroni thai time iinlil you pit into Hehnn^ Sea, did you net any seals"/ .\. — I cannot say whelher we did or not. <2. — Whatever seals you aoi after that you retained pos sessiiui of Iheiii"/ .\.— They were 011 hoard the vessel until we came to Nicloria. ti— Voii hrouffhl them hack and delivered them at Vic loria? .\. — Yes. (i. — Did yon take on hoard the skins of any other vessel? A. — We did not. ^ Q- — So thai all the skins yon landed at Victorin woiv Rkins you had caiiKliI after you left Sand Point? A.— Yes, sir. as far as T know of Q. — On that jioinl is your memory luelly clear? .V. — It i.-*. I never saw any coiiiiiif; on hoard liie ".Maiiffie Mac" from an- other vessel. fereiice to all cases in 1SS!>, and especially with reference to the "Pathtind- er," Claiin 14, and his testimony is printed here for coii- venieuce. Direct e.xaminntion by Mr. Heiquo: Q — ('apt. O'l cary. you have been already e.xaniined as I') the years ISSd and JS,s7? A.— Yes. sir. Q.— In IS.SS were you in the Itehriiif; Sea? A. — No, 1 wus nol in lli(> HchriiiK Sea in ISSS. Q. — You sealed on the coasi only? A. — 1 sealed on the coast of Vancouver Island. li.— In 1SS!I vlid y(ni no into Ihe IJehriiifj Sea? A. -I did. (J.— On what vessel? A.— The "Pathllmb'f." (i. — .\s master? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Who was male? A.— Xiie mate of the "Pathflnder," in ISS!), was Davidson, at Ihe time I went into Itclirin); Sea. Q. — Is he in Victoria? A. — I do not think lu> is in Vic- tcM'ia, lie is around somewhere; he has a place two miles out of Victoria, I Ihink. Q.— When did yon kco him Inst? A.— I Ihink T saw him in Victoria this fall. :!l 1(^7 .'*Tf7f« ^ % lO (Win. (>'L»'iir,v — IHn-cl.) Q. — How iiinn.v bonis «li(l yoi? Iinvo that y«»ai in Itchriii); Ki'a? A. — I had Hvo rogiilai- liiintiiiK boats and a Ktorn boat. Q. — Did yon »ist> tht stt'rn lM>at nuu-li? A. — Not nuicli, I UM«>d tlie st«>i'n boat to go ont niyNcIf an odd tiinc. Q. — I nndorstood yon liad only Hv»> boats and tlic wtcru boat? A. — Wo had six boats and tlic 8l»>rn boat wlu'n wf ranu> in h(>r«'. Q. — TIow was it tliat yonr ninul)(>r was intToascd? A. — U«- canst' one of thv' hnntors wonid not go. Q. — Do von n-nn'inb**!' wlicii von jfot to tlic Itclirin); Sea? A.— Abont tho 1st July. (\. — rp to whit time did you soal in tho llchrinp Sea? A. — rntil about 2nih July. Q. — Wliat ha;>iK'n(>d then? A. — Well tho rovonnc rnttep "Rnsh" came along and took all the sliins wo had from us, and ordorod ns to Riilia. Q. — Did sho tako only tho skins? A. — Sho took tho skins, 2^ tho salt, tiio ffuns and somo of tlio anunnnition, but slio did not tako it all. Q. — Did slio tako all tho pun" you liad? A. — No. I think two sliot guns and a riflo bolonging to ono of tho huntors wero not takon. I am not cortain as to whothor it was two or throe — it might have been four — but there were two shot guns T know of. Q. — What cr(»w had yon that year in Behring Rea? A. — An Indian or a white crew? A. — I had white men. Q. — ETow many white men? A. — I think I had 19 or 20, 30 but 1 am not certain as to one. Q. — On the 2!)th July, wlien your vessel was seized by the "Rush," how many skins had you? A. — Well, 1 tliink 1 had about 854. Q. — Taken in the Rehring Sea? .\. — Taken in the Rehrii\g Sea. Q.— You took llioRi- from tlie Ist to the I'fttli July? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you keep a Iwok of the daily catcli? A. — I did have a book, ves. Q. — TTave yoti got it? A. — No, T have not. Q.— WTjon'diJ you see it last? A.— Th(> Inst time 1 had it was when T came home from Rehring Sea that time; that is the last I remember seeing it. Q. — Do you know where it was left? \.—\ do not, I tliought 1 iiad it. but T find I have not. Q. — ITnd you been in the habit of keeping, from year to year, memoranda books of lliat kind? .\.— Oli. yes! We al- ways keep a book like that. Q. — When yon were seized were you carrying a flat;? A. — Yes, when the cutter came along we hoisted the flag. Q.— What flag? A.— The Rritisli ensign. Q. — Do you remember how nmny guns they took from yt>n? A. — T think about 12 shot gnus and rifles altogether. T can- not remember distinctly now. Q. — You state that after being seized you were ordered to Sifka A.~Yes. sir. Q.— Was an oflllcer of the "Rush" put on board? A.— Yes, one of the quartermasters, he said he was. Q, — Ti,. was put on board yonr schooner? .\.— Yes. O.— What did yoti do then? A.— 1 started to come out of the Rehring Sea? Q, — To go to Sitka? .\.— No. I did not intend to go to Sitka. Q._You did not look for Sitka? A.— No. 1 did not try to find il. Q__y,„i ,.,ime to Victoria? A.- I (IW. 40 •50 60 1!^ ! ■■ f p 1 If i; ■ ' ! ' ■llj'lin 10 20 30 40 5 -J 60 (Win. 01. Oil ij— Direct.) ti- — <>n your way fiiiui H(>hi-iud what skins I had g in the stern boat? A. — Yes. Q. — Yon hunted a little all the time? A.— I was out in her most of the lime she was ouf. Q.— What was the toniiaf."- of the "Walter L. Rieh?" A.— 1 do not know exaetlv. She would be about 70 tons. Q. — How man.v men did she have in !> "Walter L. Rieli" fr.mi North- east Harbor Q. — But, speaking of oano<'s, boats and men. yon had about the same number? A. — Yes. Q. — How did she ''onipare in size with the "Pathfinder?" A. — She was about the same size, T should think, or ])erha|)s the was a few tons larger. Q. — Do you remember the eateh of the "Walter L. Rich" in Behring Sea in 1800? A.— 1 think T had Koinething over fiOO skins. Q.— Was it net O.'^.T? A.— It might have been; T know it was something over (!00. Q.— About wlirit day did you enter the Sea in 1H!»0? A.— I cannot remen-ber. It wa.s Romewh«>re in July; I guess it was somewhere about the 10th. Q. — It was about the ordinarv time? A. — Yes, it was af- ter the Ist, I know. Q. — Yon were late that year? A. — No. Q. — What time did y(»n leave that year? A. — I left there some time townrds the end of August. Q. — The fact is that that season you hnnted in the sea alM>ut the usual time? A. — Yes. Q. — And yon took '!00 seals within that jteriod? A. — Yes; I left a little sooner than I would have left; I was short of grub that year. We got some of onr stores at Sand Point that year. Q. — How lat<' in August did you leave? A. — About the 25th of August, as far as I remember. Q. — You never were in tlwre later lh:th of August? A. — -I do not think s<»; that was the last year I was in the Behring Sea. Q. — That was the latest time you were ever in Hehring Sea, the 2.^th August? A. — Yes. towards the last days of August somewhere. Q. — Was there anything unusual about the trip of the "Walter L. Rich" that year, 1800, in Hehring Sea; did you lower your boa's about the same as you did in other seasons? A. — It was about the same; 1 did not find the seals quite so plentiful as they had been. Q. — Y'ou did not have as good luck that year? A. — 1 did not get as many seals. Q. — Did you see just as many? A.— I do not think I did. Q. — Some boats made good catches that year? A. — Yes, thev made them after I came htmie — a good many of them. Q.— Is that so? Do you know the catch of the "Mary Tay- lor" that year? A.— i do not. Q.— Do you kmtw the catch of the "Pathfinder" that year? A. — No, but I think she had over two thousand. Q. — Do yon i-emember if that was in Behring Sea? .\. — I think that was her catch altogether, I do |i"t remember what fjUe had in the gwi, •' ■: // l^w lO 20 30 40 5Q 60 (Win. O'Li'iiiv— ('ioM«.) Q.— l>id jou kuow the ciitcL of tht- "Tiiuuiph" in FU'Liing Sou? A. — No. Q.— Did you kuow the catch of the "E. B. Marvin" in 1890? A.— No. Q.— IMd .yon know tlic lalili of the "(J. II. Tnpnr'" m Bi/hiinR Sea, in 1890? A.— No. Q.— Did .von know (ho catcli of the "Katt«" in 1800? A.— No, thi'i-e is no nsc asking nw these questions because I do not remember it. Q.— You say that some of them made th«'ir largest catch after tlie 25th .\ugust? A,— I believe the "^'iva" got a good many after I left Behring Sea. Q.— The \iva was always a high line in catching seals? A. — I don't know that. Q. — She had exceptional catches. Is not that true? A. — E.\cei)tional in a way. She always made a pretty good catch, I guess. Vhat boats were they? A.— The "Viva" I heard of. Q. — She is the only one you know of? A. — 1 heard of. ii. — Do yon know the catcli of any of the vessels in 18S8of your own knowledge. I mean outside of your own vessel? A. — No. I cannot tell what the other vessels had. Q. — Do you kn(»w the catch of the other vessels in 1887? A. — No, but I heard what some of the other vessels did have. Q. — You made an untisually large catcli in 1887? A. — I had a good cat<'h altogether. Where did you tind (he seals in 1889? A. — Well, the most of the seals I see in that year was to tlie westward of the Is- lands — that was the first and only time I «'ver was (here. Q. — In 1890 where did you go (o look for seals? A. — In 1889 I was west of the islands, it was in 1890 that I wa.n to (he eastward. In 1889, (he tinu- I was west, 1 was west sill the time. In 1890 I went (here again and did not find (hem so plentiful. I saw more seals (o (he eastward that year. I did not remain long, I came home shortly after that. Q.— Were fifty skins all that you (iiok in (he Sea aflei- you were seized? \. — That was about all as near as T can re- member. We only lowered ])art of a day. Q. — You only lowered your boats once then? .\. — Tes, that is all. for a i)art of a day. Q. — When did you get into Victoria (lia( year? .\. — I do not remember, I suppctse you .011 Id find oat a( the fustoin House. Q. — Did .vou report the number of seals you (00k in 1890 at (he rnstom House? .\.— Oh. .ves. They have got all the catches there, T supi»ose. Q. — I ask .vou wh<'ther you reported the number of seals yoTi took in 1890 to (he C\istom House? A.— I think it is likely I did. Q. — Did you report the number you had taken in 1890 to the Custom House? .\.— What skins I brought honu> I re- ported to the Custom House. Q.— What time did that custom comnu'uce? A. — I al- ways rei»orted since 1 have been sealing. 1( has got to be declared at tin- Custom House wha( you liavf on board when yon come in. i ■4-Jj II '^!W '. I' i ,1 lO 20 30 40 so 60 7/2 (Wui. 0'Lt'iir,v — Cross.) Q.— You have always done that? A. — Alwayb that I re- member. Q.— Since what year? A.— Well, 1886 was my first year's Healing. Q.— Do you say that in 1886 you reported the number of seals that you had to the Custom House? A.— I think that it is likely that I did. As near as I remember I always re- ported what skins I had. Q. — Then the Custom House would have the correct report of the catch of all the vessels that came in to Victoria? A. — I think so. I always, as far as I remember, made our report of the number of the skins in the entry. Q. — Did you in your report tell the collector whether they belonged to the coast or the Behring Sea catch? A. — I do not know about that; what skins were caught on the south- ern coast were landed here before we went north. Q. — When yon camo back did you tell the collector that you got so nuiny on the way up? A. — No, I do not remember telling him that. What skins I had on board when I came home — those are the skins I reported. Q. — You did not tell him whether you got them in the Beh- ring Sea or wliere you got them? A. — I do not think it is likely 1 did. Q. — You say that the cutter took part of your guns and left another pari. Do you recollef^t that slie actually took twelve guns? A. — Well, it was about twelve, but I cannot remember exactly 1 suppose at the time I came home I knew tlie number exnclly, but I do not remember now. (J. — Were any of tliese guns ever returned? A. — Not that I know of. Q. — You never understood from Mr. Munsie that they were? A. — No, I never heard from Mr. Munsio as far as I remem- ber. Q. — How much ammunition did the cutter take off the "Pathfinder" in 1889? A— That is something that I do not know. Tliey took llie ammunition boxes and the ammuni- tion that w'is in them. I do not know whether they tock any other ammunition or not. Q. — What would be the value of what they took? A. — I do not know; T cannot say what they took besides the guns. Q. — You said tliey took tlie ammunition boxes and what was in them? A. — Yes. Q. — How many boxes did they take? A. — I suppose they took five; we had five hunting boats, and each boat had a box. Q. — What kind of a box? A. — The usual ammunition box. Q. — You could tak" it out in the boat? A. — Yes; perhaps there would be about one hundred shells in each box. Q. — That would mean that they took Ave hundred shells from the "Pathfinder?" What would they be worth? A.— I do not know; it is something that I never bought. Q. — Don't yon know what a shell is worth? A. — They are worth different prices. Q. — Were they loaded? A. — Some of them were loaded. Q. — Are they brass shells or paper? A. — All brass. Q. — How much is a brass shell worth? A. — I do not know what they cost. I never bought one in my life. Q. — Did you ever buy a loaded shell in your life? A. — A loaded paper shell? A. — Yes, or a brass shell; either one? A. — No, I never did. Q. — They do not sell brass shells loaded? A. — Not that I know of. 773 (Will. O'Lenry — Cross — Ro-dircct.) Q. — I suppu8(> jou reported to Mr. Munsie when .vou came back ns to how miiny shells and how much ammunition they took? A. — I suppose I did. Q. — What kind of rilles were those they took? A. — Well, I could not tell what kind of rifles they were. Q. — Did you know the uuine of the maker? A. — No; I did not. lO Q- — What kind of shotguns? A. — I do not know what kind of shotguns we iiad that year. Q. — Were th<'y old or new? A. — I cannot say whether they were or not; there would liave been some new ones. Q. — Were they all new? A. — I do not know that; I will say that there might have been .lome new ones. Q. — Were they not the same guns tliat were in the "Patli- flndr" in 1888? A.— 1 was not in the "Pathtinder" in 188H; 18S7 was my last year. Q. — Were theie some of them that were in the "Patliflnder" 20 in 1887? A. — I cannot say; there might have been. Q. — You do not know tlie value of those guns? A. — I do not know what they cost. Q. — Do yon krow the value of them at the time tliev were taken? A.— No. Re-direct examination by Mr. Beique: Q. — You have been examined as to 1890; show on the chart the latitude and longitude of where you tished in 1890? A. — I was to the west of the Islands in 1890; I was all the way 30 from* 60 to 80 miles west of the Islands. Q. — You mean the Pribyloff Islands? A. — Yes. Q. — How long did you remain west of the Islands? A. — I do not remember. I went to the eastward some time in August, but I do not remember what time. Q.— Compare 1890 with 1889 or 1886 or 1887— state if 1890 was a good vear? A. — No, 1 did not see the seals so plenti- ful in 1890. Q. — How was it so far as the weather was concerned? A. — The weather was fair; very good weather. ^ Q. — How far east t'id you go? A. — About 60 or 70 or 80 miles east of the Islands. I was in latitude 169 or 168J; just about along there, Q.— In 1889 for what time did you outfit? A.— Until about the 1st of September. I generally allowed to leuve Behring Sea about the 1st of September or the last of Au- gust. Q. — Did you ever tit out for a later season in Behring Sent A. — Not at that time. 50 Q- — You havi; been asked as to whetlier you had an unu- sual catch in 1887. Was it an unusual catch? A. — Well, there have bee.i catclies as large and larger thau that. That year, if I remember rightly, althougli there was only one catch that was over 3,000, there might have been another vessel that had as many as I had. Q.— Now in 1889 for wliat season did you outfit in the "Pathfinder?" A.— We allowed to stay in the Sea until about the 1st of September. Q. — On that occasion did you take some supplies at St. 60 Paul? A.— In 1890 I did. ' I did not take any in 1889. Q.— I should have asked you if tlie ship's papers were seized and taken away in 1889? A.— Yes, the ship's papers were taken from us. Q.— You have been asked as to the reports made on the arrival of the vessel at the Custom House. Were they writ- ten reports that you had in your mind? A.— In making out the entry we always put down the number of skins we hud on board when we got here. '1- I ' M i! ' i Ill i< I 111 III ^ili! i!|i : mr""" iiNi lO 30 40 50 60 774 (Will. O'F.imv— Hcdiivcf. A. 1{. RiHSctt— Dimt.) A. — Yes; that is, wriiiii^ in Q. — Is if niii(l( ill wfiliiij;? till- (Jiistuiii lluiist'. Q. — Wli!it«'V<>i' ropoit is timdc is in writing? A. — Yes. Q. — Arc you suro yon niadt' iiny report in writinp in ISSfi, 1HS7. or even ISm!)? A. — 1 Jilwsiys enter tlie nnmlter of sliins I iiave on lioiird wlion I eonie in. Tiiey iire always entered in the f'ustoni House. Q. — Tlien if you made it it would be there? A. — Tt nhould be (here. Q. — And yon do not know as to whether any distinction was made between (he eoast and (ho Hehring Sea catch? A. — \o, I do not know. Tlie skins I have ro( between here and Sand Toiiit and shii)iK'd back in another vessel, 1 do not know about that, Q. — (^ni you say altout whs i your coast catch was in 1880? A. — \o. 1 do not remember. 20 A. — 8in(v A. — Xova A.— bei'ii The evidonco of the following witness, Alfred R. Rissett, was laken with reference I0 all cases except the "t'andena," and esjiecially refVis io the cases of the ''I'athfludi-r'; and "Ariel," and i» jirinted here as a matter of convenience. Alfred R. Riss<'(t was called on December 10, 189(i, as a witness on the part of Great Rritain, and was duly sworn. Direct examination l»y Mr. Peters: Q, — Where do yen live? A, — N'ictoria, Q. — How lonj? have you us-ided in Victoria? 181S.S. (}. — Where did you ccdh' from ori^tinally? Scotia. Q. — Did 3'ou biiu{i a \(ss( 1 around? A, — 1 did in 18'»(>. I was mate of the "Triumph ' ard was on passage arcmud lier« (i. — How long have you been engajted in sealing? Since ISSO inclusive. y. — Kveiy year with (lie exicption o." IWM) you liavt out? A. — Ves, sir. I did not go out that year. Q.— Were you on the "Theresa" in 1889?' A.— I was. ii. — In what capacity? A. — Mate. Q. — About what tonnage was she? A. — I am not certain what her tonnage was. but I think it is jot in Bt'hrinp Sva? A. — Yes, Hir. (.1. — I>o vou rt'iiieinlMM* tlx' i*\n\t "I'aihdndcr'" and tlie sliip "Ai-iel"? A.— I do. ii. — l>o .vou ivuK'niluT tlicir bcinj? seized? A. — I do. Q. — Were vou near tlieni at the time of tlie Beizure? A. — Yes. Mir. I tliinli about tlie last da.v <)f Jul.v tlie eutiep "KuhIi" boarded us, in fact she ihased us and cau):;ht us and nu ottieer eanie on board and 1h> said tlie.v had come from the "Pathfinder." We saw a shij* rij^hf alonj^side of the 8eho4»uer, about si.v or seven miles off. He said that he had come from the "I'athtinder" and that the.v had seized her. Q. — .Vnd they boarded you? .\. — They boarded us. (i. — ]Jid you see the "Ariel"? A. — Well, he reported her as one of the tl«»et that was in sif>ht; the officer of the cutter reported her. Q. — There were more than two s jehalf iii-d that Hhip? A. — We had nix ImmUh ineluding a Huiall Htern boat. Q. — Five rennlar hnntinf; boatn? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And how many men A. — About twenty men Q. — How many men for eaeh boat? A. — Tlir«H> men for each b«mt; bt>HideH that the captain, mate, cook and a cal)in 20 boy. Q. — That was yonr whole crew?? A. — That waH our whole crew. Q. — You were armed with what? A. — With Hhot-gunH. Q. — What kind of Hhot-gunH? A. — I don't rememl)er. We had Bomc L. C. Kniitli guuH and we had Home Gnglinh made guns. 1 don't remeniber what they were. I know we hml Home L. (\ Smith gunH. Q. — How many fiunH had you? A. — We carried on»> gun apiece — One nliot-jjun and a rifle. ■^ Q. — Were there any npare jfunn on b(»ard the boiit? A. — Yi»8, I think there were. Q. — You sealtHl in Behring Sea up to what time? A. — Up to the 29th of July. Q. — What hap])ened on the 29th of July? A. — We were seized by the United States ship "Rush." Q.— What time about and day? A.— The 29th of July. Q.— And the year? A.— 1889. Q.— What happened on the 29th of July? A.— The "Rush" 40 boarded us and seized us for sealing in Uehring Sea. Q. — The "Rush"' boarded you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will you kindly tell me what took place? Describe it as briefly as you can? A. — You want the conversation? Q. — Who came aboard? A. — Lieut. Tattle came aboard and asked the captain how nuiny seals he had. Q. — How many was it? A. — Eight hundred and sixty something, sixty-four, I think; b*4ween eight and nine hun- dred. Q. — Can you tell what conversation took i)lace between the ca))tain and Lieut. Tuttle? A. — He asked the captain how nuiny seals lie had and he told him eight hundred and something; and he says: "Did you get them seals in Behring Sea?" He asked him how long he had been in here. He says: "Did you get them seals in Behring Sea?" The captain told him he did. Well, he didn't say any more; told him lie would have to go aboard and r«»port to the commanding officer of the "Rush." and he went and he came back and told the captain he would have to seize his vessel. Q.— What did he do? A.— Well, his bout came aboard; took the papers; took all the skins we had in the hold; took all of our guns and our ammunition boxes and our shells, our rifles and our shot-guns, all our rifle ammunition and our shells that were loaded. Q.—Did he take your powder? A.— \o. he didn't take the rest of the ammunition. Q.— Or your shot? A.— No, sir. 50 60 !'.. 1^' ■ . i! i ^'\'- Pii::": Itii' m\ TT 778 (W. I). ll.V.'IH— IHlTlt.) ii. — If I iiiidfi-NtaiMl voii toiTccilv lu- look nil .\ iiiiiiiMiiiilioii for voiii' lillfN nixl .voiic lnaiiili«>i- of. I won't lit' iiomHIvi' of Hint, liiit I do? A.— Ilr t»M»k tlit'iii uwa.v and piil oiu> of IiIh nicii altoard of uh. I think 10 l»' waH a jM'tt.v oltiriT; i|iiaitt>riiiaHtt'i' or Honit'thinK like that, and told iih to p> t«i Sitka. Q.— You do not ivnicnilH'i- tlu' name of tlw man, do ,von? A. — \o, I don't. (2.— Did .von have to feed that man m lonjj aH Im' .aH aboard tlit' Hhip? A. — Yt-B, Hir. (2.— Tlu'u, I HiippoHc, ht> loHt yiO a month'/ A.— I think h*' cuHt a little mure. y.— He ate Iwart.v, did he? A.— I judge alioiit fll. (i.— Did tlie> do anvthing more? A.— No, sir; that Ih all. 20 Q.— What did .vou do? A.— W«' couldn't tind Hitka, ko wu eainu Inmie. Q.— Did you look very hard ftu- her? A.— Yes. Q. — HoniethiuK wrong with the ehroiioineter? A. — With 1h«> com pa MS. Q. — Y'ou could not find Kitka? A.— No, nir. Q.— Did you, as a matter of fact A.— The captain told me — I do not know whet her he could find it or not. I was not supposed to know. Q. — I suppose you have u kind of general idea he might 30 have found it if he hud tried very hard. A.— Probably he would. Q. — He did ni»t find it? A.— No, sir; he did not. ti. — Did you leave Itehring .Sen at once? A. — Yes, sir. y. — Did you get any more seals? A. — Yes, sir; we got a few more. . ItvciH-ninct.) Q.— TIhtc' wi'if fight liuiidrtMl and HuiiielhiiiK tiiiiKlil in lt«*lirinK Hfu? A. — Vi-h, hIi-. t^.— Wlnit Imtl you done willi the hoiIh you . uglit on flu* way up to lU'liiiuK Hta? A.— Wo put tluMP . board tlic Hfiioohfr "Waiidorci" at Sand I'oiut. Kl. — Ho tluit you did not take into Uolirini; Hca any McaJH from outHid*'; iiiid all llif s<-alH on tin- v«sHt'l that w*'i(>^ st'i/.ed ,j, were takfu in HclirinK Hea that m-aHon? A. — Yob, »ir. Q. — How waa the weatliL-r for Mealing wlii-n you wi*r(.' m-iz- ed and for a few days afU'r? A. — Very nici';' th«' uoxt day it waH calm. (). — \V«'II, you caught hoiuo wcaiii tiuil day? A. — Y»'B, that waH the day wi- caught llicni (\. — Mow many did you ca(ch liiat day? A. — I d»)n't re- member. Q. — How did you nuinage to catcli tlieni? A. — Some of the HailorM had a couple of ritlcH in tiu' forecuHtle. 20 '>■ — You only had a t'oujde of rifles? A. — Xo, there wuh only three boats out. (i. — You had onlv two ritl»'H? Q- A.- (l. — I'iVen with rilles, wliat did member the nundter, it wuh Ichn A.— Three ritles. -Am a nnittei' of fact, do you use ritlcH much for Healing? -Not at) a rule, we don't. yon get? than no. -I don't re- 40 Q. — Much h'HS? A. — Much Ichh? I don't recolit'ct ex- actly. Q. — >Vas that in one day. Did you seal more than one 3° day befor«' yon went out of the St-a? A. — No, I don't think bo. K.\. — .\nd you got Hometliing under tifty? .\. — Uchh than fifty; I don't reineuil»er the numlxT. Q. — H you had had your proper ajtparatiis or guuH and proper ammunition, what was the diance (»n that very day to catch senls? A. — We would luive caught at least one liun- dre«l and fifty. Q. — And the day afier tluit, the day you wi>nt out of Heliring Sea, what was that like? A. — T don't remember the weather. Q. — And of nt. That is the "Pathtindor" case and not the 'Tarolena.'' Mr. IN'ters: — 1 understand that olijedion; it ii. reserved all through. The Commissioner on tlie part erience is that they are more plentiful in August than July? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And as regards weather, you say it is not (juite so fine? A. — The weather is a little finer in July than in August. Mr. Byers was also examined relative to the seizure of the "Pathfinder" in 1800, Claim No. 21, by consent of counsel. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Were you on board the "Pathfinder" the next yeai'? A. — No, sir. Q. — W<*re you in Rehring Sea in ISOO? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— On what vessel? A.— On the "Triumph." Mr. Warren :— Which "Triumph"? A.— The big "Tri umph." Q. — As a fact, you know notlung about the circumstances of her seizure, not l)eing with her in 1890? A. — ^^o, sir. Q. — Have you bwu in the habit of fishing year after yeiir on what is called the coast? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Where does that cojist ext<'nd from, the part that is fished in the spring? A. — It extends from San Francisco np to Kodiak on the Alaskan coast. Q. — 'Will you tell me the months that the best sealing is had on that coast? A. — In April, May and June. Q. — Was there any sealing before that in March and Feb- ruary? A. — Oh. yes. Q. — I want you to give the month of March, whereabouts is sealing carried on in the month of March? A. — Well. I do not know exactl,» ; some fishing is done south and some oft Oai)e Flattery and some off to the w«'stward. Q. — Hut that is the coast the fishing is done on? A. — Yes. Q.— And they do fish there? A.— Yes. Q. — Did vou fish in anv place in the month of March, 1800? A.— Yes. Q. — Where? A. — I flslied on th<' coast of Vancouver Island and Queen Charlotte Island. Mr. Warren;— In the "Triumph"? .\.— In the "Triumj)!!." Direct examination continued by Mr. Peters: Q. — Did you fish in the months of March and .\pinl? A. — 60 Yes, sir. Q. — Did you fish in the first week of April and last week in March? A. — I can't say positive. Q. — .\t all events, you fished in April and in March? \. — Yes, sir. Q. — With any success? A. — Fair success for the season, at that time. Q. — You cannot give me the catch that you made at those times? A.— No. sir. I presume It can be had. 40 50 ;■ f- 10 781 (W. D. B.vers— Direct. W. E. Bakt-r—Direct.) Q. — The flHhiug on the coast begins in February? A. — W«'H, I have went (»ut as early as the 20th of December on this coast. Q. — In those years, 188!) and IH!H>. did yoti go out as early as that? A.— In 1800, we left hew on the 28th December; but we did not commence op<'rations until about the lOtli January. Q. — Then the season would practically begin from the end of January? A. — Yes. sir; along in January. Q. — And end some time in June? A. — Yes. 30 Wentworth E. Baker was called as a witness on the part 20 of (h'eat Bntaih, having biH'u already duly sw«>rn, and was examined out of ord«»r by cons«*nt, Dec,«Mnber 17, 18J)H, as to Claim 21, the "Pathfinder," and his testimony is printed here for convenience. Direct examination by Mr. Teters: Q. — I want to ask you with regard to the ''Pathtinder'' for 1800, (^laim No. 21. Do you rememiuT, ('aptain Baker, the month of March, 1890? Will you be kind enough to look at your book and turn to the last entry you have for the montli of March, 1890? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — What is the last enfry you have in the month of March, 1890? A.— 30th. Q. — What does it state? A. — Nine seals. il. — Now, I want to ask you if, shortly before that last entry was made, you had been to Neah Bay? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Van 30U tell me betwi'en what dates y«>u were in Neali Bay? A. — Between that and April 2nd. Q. — As a matter of fact you were in Neali Bay? A. — Yes, 40 sir. Q.— Did vou see the "Pathfinder"? A.— Yes, sir. Q._What was the "Pathfinder" in Neah Bay for? A.— She was there for repair. She was there to repair a rudder. (/. — You saw that, did you? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You were on board? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Whilst you were on board her — I tliink you will find the date is before* the 30th, but tliat is no matter — did any- thing happen that same diiv to ihe "Pathfinder"? A. — Y«>s, sir. I was looking at the date. I have not got the date ''*' that I went into Neah Bay — it was between the 25th and tlie 30th, Q. — You correct that other statement? A. — As near as I can rememlH^r it was between those days. Q. — It is between the 25th and 30th you were at Neah Bay? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did anything happen to the "Pathfinder" while you were thew? A. — She was seized l\v the "Cor win." Q. — Did you see the "Corwin" thei-e? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wer«> you on Itoard the "Pathfinder"? A. — Yes. sir. (J. — Before or after slu* was seized? A. — I was on board l)efore alio was taken away. Q. — Biit had tlu' ottlcers Iuh'u on board of liei' l)efoi'«> you went? A. — Yes, sir; I don't just remember wliether I went on board befcrc the officers went on board, or after, but I was shortly after they went on board. Q. — Now. you went in tliere for what? A.— Water and shelter. 60 iiii PfPf!?^ I h«. lO 20 782 (W. E. HiikiT—Din-ct— Cross.) Q._Yoii got tluMf wlial (iini of the dav? A— Arrivfd in the I'Vi'uiug. Q.— Wlu'ii did yon Icavi'? A.— I thiiiii I left the next ulj?ht 01- the moniinp; following. I don't know which. Q. — Yon were on a sealinjj trip, were ,yon? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, wlien yon arrived tliere in wliat stat*' was the 'I'atlilindei"? AVas slie beinj,' repaiied or had she been re- pnired? A. — She liad been repaired. Q. — She was ready for sea? A. — She was all ready for sea and was jj<'iuK ^'"'1^ nijjht. ii. — Now, you were on a sealing trip then, were you? A. — Yes, si I'. Q.— On what ship? A.— On the "Viva." Q. — Will you be kind enough to tell me how far the sealing grounds were from Neah Hay? A. — About ."iO miles. Q. — l>id you often catch them nearer than that? A. — Yes, sir. sometimes within ten miles of Flattery. Q. — On that particular occasion did you go from there di- rectly to the sealing grounds? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Had you began to seal, or when was the next day that you sealed and caught seals? A. — T'le Vtth of July, the next day I got seals. Q. — -Vnd you got how many? .'• . — .\i > seals. Q. — What was your next day? \.- s [hi\ 2nd I got three of the seals. Q. — And your next day? A. — April 4th.; 12 seals. Q. — That was the amount yon actually got between those 30 days? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Will you be kind enough to tel! the Pommissioners what kind of ground it is in that particular part, is it good or bad grounds for sealing at that time of the year? A. — It was then considered the best grounds, that vicinity. Q. — Is that the time of the year that you catch them there? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Were there other vessels hunting seals in that same part at that same time? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Do you remember any of them?- A. — Not particularly. 40 I don't remember any in particular. Q. — .Just referring to the ground. You use the words "best ground." Yon are not referring to Behrinr ^en? A. — I am referring to the «oast. Q. — That is the best ground for the coast, you i^on\, ? A. — Yes. sir, for the coast. Q. — How was the weather during thi.ie da.\ tii^ ./< ;' fish- ed, do you remember? A. — The weather was gfr. Lansing: Q._raptain, ;i wer(> on (he "Viva" in isno? A.— Yes, sir. Q.—And wlu. . .-ft (he on-v r? A.— isno? William Mun- sie. Q —Who owi fd tlK- j'atlitludt'r?" A.— William Munsie. SO 60 /Sj (W. E. Kalu'i— ('I08H. ('. A. Luiidhfrj,'— Diiccl.) ti-— >ViH ytu l<»ok at your iiiciiioiiiudiim book b.y wLicL you lix the date. How do you fix tlio date from the luVinoiandiim hook? What date were you iu Neah liay? A.— At the time she was seized. Q-— How do you know what time she was seized? A.— I was there at the time. Q.— When was it? A.— Wetweeu tiie L'ath and IJOtli; I JO won't be positive of the date she was seized. I was there at tlie time, wliatever date tliat was. Q-— How louj,' were you in Neah Hay? A.— I arrived in the evening, and I think I left tlie next uiglit, I wont be sure. Q.— Wliat day? A.— 1 tliink it was on the 2«th, I won't be sure; the 2fith, I think it was. Q. — Yon had white liunters? A. — White hunters, yes. Q. — Who were the men, do you remember? A. — I could not name them now. Q. — ITow many boats did the "Pathfinder" have? A. — She 20 had six boats, 1 think Q. — Inclndinji the stern boat? A. — No, sir, I think she had six boats nnd stern boat; I would not be positive. Q. — How many did you have? A. — 1 had six boats and a stern boat. Q. — In the spring you shoot your seals sleeping? A. — Yes. sir, a great many of them. Q. — Do you shoot a large number sleeping? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — ifore than you do in Behring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — Are there more traveling in the spring than there are 30 in Behring Sea? A. — I have found them so. Q. — When did you make up this book that you referred to? A. — I made it up every night on the ship. I didn't keep any record of that date. I only know what day I left in this book — as near as T can remember it was between those dates. Q. — Will you examine your memorandum and see how many seals you took betw«'en the l.^th of March and the Ifjth of April that year? A. — (Examining.) lO.'j seals. Mr. Dickinson: — The entries in this memorandum book 40 from which you have given your testimony here to-day are all in pencil, are they not? Witness: — All in pencil, sir. (Memorandum books referred to marked Nos. .3 and 1 for identification.) k m •iiiMti > : t 50 f'harles A. Lundberg, a wicness called on b» half of (treat Britain in (h<' case of the "Ada," Claim No. 11. being duly sworn was examined, by consent of counsel, out of order, De- cember IS. 1H!H>, and his testimony is printed here for con- venience. Direct examination by Sir ('. II. Tiipper: J- Q. — You came to Yokohama in 1H7!). did you not, Mr. Lund- lu'rg? A. — Yes. sir. i}. — And in IMHl were you scaling and otter hunting? A. ■ — Yes, sir. Q. — In the schooner "Alexander?" A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You went for the regular cruise that year? A. — Yes, sir. done. Q. — And she turned out what class of vessel? A. — First- class. Q. — Do you know wli;il the 1 iiH riul Hjmrs actually cost of the "Ada"? A. — Yes, I heard the contract made. Q. — Were you present when it was made? A. — I was. Q.— What was the amount? A.— 15,500. Q. — Do you remember the tonnage of the "Ada"? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What was it? A.— «5.25. 5° Q. — British register? A. — British register. Q. — Do you know some other vessels that were built about that time at Yokohama? Do you know the Diana? A. — She was built the jear before. Q. — What was her tonnage? A. — About the same. Q.— About 60? A.— Sixty-two I think it was. I am not sure. Q. — What was the cost of the hull of that vessel? 60 Mr. Lansing: — Wait a moment, what is his knowledge? Sir C. H. Tupper: — I asked him if he knew any other ves- sels built at Yokohama about that time and he mentions the "Diana." (To the witness: — You know what the hull cost of the "Diana"? A. — I know what they told me. Mr. Dickinson: — I think it would be well to know how a witness of this kind knows such an important matter as cost. 20 785 (V. A. I.iindberg — Dirt'ct.) Sir r. H. Tupper: — Vou were living near the ship yard when that vessel was built? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wliile these people were doing the business? A. — The,v were living with me. Q. — Who was the owner of the "Diana"'? A. — (Japtain I'atterson. Q. — Was he building her? A. — Yes, sir. lo Q. — Did you get the infonnation from liim? A. — Yes, sir, from the three of them. Q.— What was the cost of the hull? (Objected to by Mr. Dickinson as hearsay testimony. Question withdrawn). Q. — What did the balance of the fitting, the running gear, the hawsers, and the upholstering of the "Ada" cost. Do you know? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— How much? A.— f2.0()0r Q. — You told us that you were present during the construc- tion of that ship? A. — I was present wlien they made the contract between them. Q. — These men who were interested in the vessel did their business in your hotel? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In your presence? A. — Yes. Q. — You heard them discussing tlie matter from time to time? A. — Yes, sir, both in tlie liotel, and out in the ship yard, where was Cook's office. Q. — And it was from tlie information you got at that time 30 you gave your answer? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you know Henry Cook, John Carroll and Walter Hardy? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Were these men building the ship? A. — Yes, sir, and Anthony Cook. Q. — Was there a Hardy captain as well as shipwright? A. — Hardy was tlie captain and part owner. Q. — Did he give his own time to the work done on the "Ada?" A.— Yes, sir. Q. — He attended to it personally? A. — Yes, sir. 40 Q. — Are you nure of that? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — WlieVe is he to be found? A. — He is in Yokohama, 1 think. Q. — When did you see him last alive? A. — Seven years ago. Q. — When did you hear from him? A. — I have not heard from him since. y. — And you do not know he is dead since? A. — I cannot say. Q. — AVhen you said you thouglit lie was alive yuo were re* 5^ ferring to seven years' ago? A. — Yes, I have not heard he is dead. y.— Have you heard that he is alive? A.— No, I have not. Q.— What you know of him was seven years' ago? A.— It was in 18H7; I lived in Yokohama in 1887, and have not heard from him since. Q.— You have not heard from him, or seen him, since 1887? A.— No. Q.— When did you see Jolin Carroll last? A.— I did not see him since the year before I left, that would be in 188B. Q.— You have not seen John Carroll since 1886? A.— No. Q._\Vhpn did you see Henry Cook last? A.— I saw him a few days before' we left in the month of March, 1887. Q._no you know where any of these people are now? A. —I cannot sav, I think that Carroll is dead, but i cannot tell. Q.— When you speak of (lie value of the hull, brass, rigging and HO forth, what value are you referring ' Are you re- 5U 60 ;ii.' (I • ii< 'i 786 ii' 'I I'lifji 10 20 30 40 50 60 (V. A. Lundbiig— Direct.) ferrinjr to the cost at Y'ukohama or the cost here? A. — That 1 cannot say. Tliey mentioned so many dolhuu Whether tliey w«'re dealing in jjohl or in Mexican I would not be sure. (i.— They spuUe of dollars? A.— Yes, they spoke of dol- hirs tliere. (i.— You came to Victoria in this ship in 1887? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — You came omv on the "Ada" on her voyage from Yokohama to Victoria? A. — Yes, sir. Q- — You were connected with the vessel in what way? A. — I came over as passenger in her to go as mate and* hunter when we got here in Victoria. Q. — You were in Victoria when she was getting ready to go to Behring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. (J.— In what year? A.— In 1887. Q. — Who wiis the owner.of her at that time? A. — Mr. Gray. Q. — Was he iiere at tliat time? A. — Yes, sir, ■ ^ can.e over with US. Q. — Do you l;now anytliing in regai-d to any offer to pur- chase that sliip at Victoria that year? A. — I do. Q. — What do you know? A. — Well, Mr. Savward offered him 19,000 for her. Q.— Offered whom? A.— Offered Mr. Gray. Q. — In your presence? A -Yes, we were three together walking up Jolinson street. Q.— What did Mr. Gray say to that? A.— He laughed at him and said that he would not sell the vessel. Q.— He refused to take f!),000? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— What did he say? A.— He said "I do not take f 10,000 for her." Q. — Was tlie ship ready for sea then? A. — No, that was after we came up from the west coast; she was making ready. Q. — About what month? A. — It was in June. Q.— In 1887? A.— Yes. sir, in the first part of June. Q. — Now then had you anything to do with ships befoi-e you came to Yokohama in 1879? A. — Before I came to Yoko- hama I was a sailor. Q. — When did yon go to sea first? A. — When I was H jears old. Q. — You were born in Sweeden? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You went to sea in 1879? A. — Yea, sir, and in small boats before that. Q. — You have b«H'n to sen alt your life? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What part of 1887 did you join the "Ada?" A.— I went on board at Yokoli'ama on th»» .^th of Mai'ch. Q. — Under what arrangement? A. — I made the arrange- ment the day before; she had shipped a crew already, and that was how I came to go as passenger in her. Q. — I'^nder what arrangement did you go on board at Yoko- hama? A. — 7 went on board to go as mate, take care of the skins and salt them. Q. — T'.iat was your work on board? A. — Yes, after we left Victoria. Q. — Where were you going to hnnt? A. — On the west coast, if we had time. Q. — But the Behring Sea was your main object? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That arrangement you speak of was made at Yoko- hama? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — When did you leave Yokohama? A. — On J)tli March. Q. — You came direct to Victoria? A. — Yes, sir. i-i. — Do you remember when you arrived? A. — Yes, sir. (J.— When? A,— On the Cth April. Tfff 787 (C. A. I.iindlK'rg — Direct.) Q.— What did the 'Adir' do here? A.— W«' hild her up a little while, we had a little fixing to do on her; she brolie her gatT and some small things. Q.— \\'hat did .vou get ready for? A.— To go down on tlie West ("oast. Q. — To do what? A.— To <'at«'li seals. (J. — What crew had you on board? A. — We went down on 10 tlie West Toast and got Indians to hunt — there were not white hunters to be had. Q. — When you got your Indian hunters, how many had you all told on the vessel? A. — We had 14 canoes and 28 Indians. Q. — And what crew had you beside? A. — I think we had six men with myself. Q. — Does that include the captain? A. — No. Q. — Who was the captain? A. — Van Pelt. (J. — How many did you take from Yokohama on board? '° A. — Five white men. y. — Did you have any hunters? A. — No, five white men, and four Japanese. Q. — Then you went out to the West Coast sealing? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — When did you return from that sealing trip on the West Coast? A. — We returned, I think, «m the 1st of June, or at the end of May, I am not sure which. Q. — How many skins had you? A. — We had 340. , Q. — What was done with the ship when you got back from the trip? A. — W«' commenced to m.'ike her leady foi- Behr- ing Sea as quick as we could. Q. — Did you keep these huntei-s? A. — No, some of them went back. Q. — What hunters did you get for the Hdiring Sea trip? A. — Some of the same Indians and some others. Q. — And how many canoes? A. — Seven canoes and one boat. Q. — That was the stern boat? A. — Yes, sir. 40 Q. — How many Indian hunters did you have? A. — Four- teen. Q. — How many white hunters? A. — One. Q. — What was your position on the trip to Behring Sea? A. — I was mate. Q. — And what else? A. — I ship])ed as mate and hunter, but I did not hunt. Q. — When did you sjiil fnun Victoria for the Behring Se"? A.— We sailed about the lOth or 17th of June, 1887. Q. — Wheiv did you take the Indian hunters on? A. — At 5^ San Juan. Q. — What other name is given to that port? A. — Kat- ehina. Q. — Where did you put in after leaving San Juan for th«' IMiring Sea? A. — We got into a gale outside and smashed three canoes and went into T'kulet to replace them. Q. — Did you rejdace them? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Then you proceeded on yttur voyage? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — When did you enter Behring Sea? A. — On the KJth 60 'I"lv. Q. — And of tliat same year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You were seized on the 2oth August, were you not? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— By what vessel? A.— By the "Bear." Q. — State briefly what happened on that occasion? A. — The lieutenant came on Ixvird of us and asked for the ship's papers, and the captain handed them to him ; then he told uh that we were violating the laws of the United States, and a i.i ' I r: : "^Ml iliii i|ilili:i ill'iiiii I'ljc Billlli^ m Mkk 788 we thought we were not ;'he asked what we were doing there, and we told him that we were sealing, and the captain point- ed to the flag. Q.— What Hag? A.— The English flag. Q. — Where was it flying? A. — It was fl.ving at the mast- head. Wt' said we weiv on the high seas. TIh' oflieer went back to the cutter, and reported to Captain Healey, his com- ,0 manding olHcer. Shortly afterwards he returned to us. Q.— What did he do then? A. — He came back with seven or eiglit men and started in to make ready to take us in tow, and told us we were seized. ( Q. — He started to take you in tow? A. — He started to make ready, and I told him, and so did the captain, that our boats were out, and we asked him "Was he going to leave the men behind''? Q. — What boats were out? A. — The canoes and the stem boat were out; he finally stopped for a while and told us to 20 signal to the boats, which we did right away. Q. — And you stayed until you got the boats in? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — They were out sealing at the time? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And wlien the boats came in what happened? A. — We got the canoes on board and they passed a line to us. Q. — How many seals had the boats when they were called in that time? A.— Tliey had 38. Q. — How much of the day's sealing was over at that time? A. — It was just half-past eight. 30 Q. — In the morning? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What time had they been out? A. — They went out about six o'clock, or probably a few minutes before six. Q. — And at half-past eight they brought back 38 seals? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What was done to your ship then? A. — She was taken in tow by the "Rear." Q. — Were there any of a prize crew left on board? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How many? A. — A lieutenant and three men. Q. — They remained on the "Ada"? A. — Yes, and the bal- ance went in the boat back to the shin. Q. — Where did the cntt<'r make for? A. — Ounnlaska. Q. — You arrived at Ounalaska subsequently? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What happened tliere? A. — Tliey anchored us there for all night. Q.- -r>id tlie captain of the cutter say anvthing to your cap- tain? A. — He did not say anything that T know of that after- noon, but the next morning they came and hauled us along- side tlie wharf. Q. — Hefore you were hauled alongside of the wharf, was there any conversation that you remember between the cap- t.'iin of the cutter and ihe captain? A. — Yes; they took guns and nionev and ev«'rvtliing from u.^, and put it on board the "Hear." Q. — Who liaiiled the scluxuier alongside the wharf? A.— Tlie crew of one of tlie cutters. 0. — Di.l the oflicers of the cutter take any inventory of the "Ada" th<^n? A. — They searched the whole of the vessel riurht throuurli. Q. — Did thev take anything else other than the arms and money? A. — Not that evening, hut when we came alongside tlie wliai-f tliev took the skins out and the salt. O. — Thev did not take provisions? A. — "Vo. sir. O. — When vou were told tliat von would be hauled along- side? the wharf, was anything said between your captain and 40 50 60 789 (C. A. Lniulbciji— Diri'ct.) theoaptniit of Ui«' riittt*r? A. — Not after we lanu' ulougHide. Q. — Did your cupain give up the arms and inone.v willing- ly? A. — He wrote out a protest. Q. — That was before the arms and money were taken? A. — Yes, sir, he protested that notliing was to be taken out of the ship. Q- — It was after tliat that everything you have spoken of 10 '° regard to removal of the arms, and money and skins took place? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What became of the "Ada's"' papers? A.— The lieu- teimnt took them and kept them. Q— What happened to the log book? A.— That was after they had taken out the skins, Captain Healey stood on the wharf and asked for he log book; our captain said that he had no log book for the ship, but only a iirivate log. <'ap- tain Healey said: "I want to see if," our captain said, "If you will give me your word of honor to give it back to me, I 20 will get it out." He said then, "Hand it here." My captain told me to go down and get it, and F lianded it to him, and he handed it to Captain Healey. Q. — When did he get it back? A. — He never got it back. Q. — Not that you know of? A. — No. Q. — Did you hear him ask for it? A. — Both me and my captain asked the captain and lieutenant on board the "Bear," and tliey would not give it back. Q. — Now, after staying in Ounalaska, what was done to the ship. What were you told to do? A. — When everything 30 was out he told the captain to take her to Sitka, and the crew refused to go. Q. — The crew of the "Ada" refused to take her to Sitka? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What was done then? A. — They wanted to know who was going to pay for them for taking.her down because it was understood that there was no wages when the ship was seiz- ed. Q. — The crew knew that you were told to take the ship to Sitka, and they refused? A. — Yes, sir. "^ Q. — Did your captain report what they said to Captain Healey? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What did Captain Healey say? A. — He pointed over to the other vessels seized the year before, and he said, "Do you see those three rotten Britih'i hulks there? Take her down to Sitka, or else I will haul ler over there, and let her rot, and I will put your crew on the bench, and take you down in one of the cutters as a prisoner to Sitka." Q.— What effect had that? A.— Well, I stood on the deck 50 and heard it, and the captain said to the crew, "Do you hear what that man says? What are we to do?" There was nothing said for awhile, and they consulted amongst them- selves, and the captain came again and asked: "Are you wil- ling to go, or what is it going to be? They said they would go to Sitka. Q. — A-itor that was communicated to them they agn'ed to go to Sitka? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What became of the Indians? A.— They were all on board of the "Ada.' 60 Q.— Did they go from Ounalaska to Sitka? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— In the "Ada?" A.— Yes, sir. Q._Was there no offlcer of the United States on board the "Ada" on that voyage from Ounalaska to Sitka? A.— There was a petty officer from one of the cutters, but I do not know what he was. Q.— How did yon get out of Ounalaska? A.— We were towed out by the "Bear?" ^^ i ! i r nv. ii:| 81 i|- fiii;: m' lO 20 30 40 so 60 790 (C. A. I.nntlhori; — Diivct.) Q.— How many days passage was it bi'twecn Oiumlaska and Mitka? A. — I think it was nine days. Q. — Now, at Sitku, were you allowed to go on shore when you pot there? A.— Not at first, the captain went ashore, and the crew stayed on board. (i. — What became of the Indians? A. — They were all told to stay on board for a while until we had got further orders. ii. — How lon^i; were yo>i and the crew compelled t() stay on board of your ship at Sitka? A. — I think it was four or Ave days, or something like that. The captain told me that there were no charg.js against the "Ada," and, of course, he told that to me when he came on board. Q. — In whose charge was your vessel at Sitka? A. — There was a special policeman on board. Q. — And he was back and forth from the vessel? A. — He stayed there mostly all the time, he may have gone on shore sometimes. Q. — After four or Ave days did you get liberty to go ashore? A. — The captain came and told us that we were to quit, it, and that he was going away; he said that the crew was ac- quitted but the vessel had to remain. Q. — How long was that after you had been at Sitka? A.. — About four or live days, or a week; it was when the first steamboat with mail came up. Q.— He said that he was going away. Why did you not go away? A. — We could not, wir<'(f.) Q-— Voii I'iiniiol (ell whiif wiis doiu- i|i (lie court? A.— No, I ctinnut tell; 1 wn8 asked hoiiu' <|U(>HtionH. Q- — After the week liad nin out >ou could not m't uwny tin jou hud no means to pa.v your pHHuage? A.— No sir. ().— How did yon >,'et away? A.— We finally >,'ot'away on the "Rush." We had to >;o and make application to him. ().— To whom? A.— To the court jud^e— l>awm)n. Q— What did he tell you? A.— lie told uh that we could Ket away on the "KuhIi," but he did not know when Hhe wa« going; that was after we had stayed on board ten days, we liad no more provisions at all. I went up and asked him how it was going to be, because the Indians were running after me. I had no control over anything as long as it was that way, I did not know who took the things away, I had no comnuuid over the crrew. Q. — Nor over the provisions? A. — Over nothing. Q. — What did he do? A. — He said there were enough pro- visions on board her to last us for as long as we were liere. I said I did not know where tlie provisions were, but that tliere was no more on board of tlie schooner. There was some buscuit in the hold that tlie Indians had, and then we hud to sell our clothes, what little we had. y. — You had to sell your clothes? A. — We sold everything we had right down to our boots. Q. — Hefore you got away? A. — Yes. y.— And finally the "Rush" took you? A.- Yes, sir. (i.— When was that? A.— The 25th September. y. — Wlien did you arrive here? A. — I urrived on tlie 4th October. ii. — I omitted to ask you iu regard to tlie scaling. Can you tell me how many days you were ac.tual'y sealing during the time you were in Itehring Sea in August and July, 1887? A. — I know how nuiny full days we had, but I do not know how many short days. (i. — How many full days had you? A. — We had twenty- one full days, or rather, 1 think, it was twenty full days and one thnt'-ciuarters day. The balance would be an hour and a 40 half or so when we would lower the boats and get a seal or two. y.— That is up to the 25th August? A.— ""es. sir. g.— When did you enter the Sea? A.— Ab 'it the Ittth day of July. Q. — How many seals did you exi)ect to ratch at the rate you were taking tliem that season? A. — I (-alculated to get 3,t)()t) seals that season. Q. — At the rate you were taking them what would you likely have caught? A. — Well, we figured out after we were seized that, if we kept on as we were going, the way the weather was that year, and t1 . way the weather generally is, we should have another tlu •' .nil after we wei-e seized. Q. — Another thousand outside of the 1,876? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What sort of sealing weather was it when you were seized? A. — It was fine, very good. Q. — What sort of weather was it that very day that yon were being towed to Ounalaska, and up to the time you got there? A. — Very nice weather. Q. — What sort of weather was it from Ounalaska to Sitka? A. — There was pretty fair weather. Q. — Good sealing weather? A. — Yes, sir; we had a cou- ple of days of bad weather. Q. — Had you anything particular to do with the provisions on the "Ada"? A.— W^ell, I was looking after the cook, and the interpreter, in fact I had charge of everything that was In her. 50 60 I! 1 -i i .1 I 79» .■li|i|j..ji| liHI (('. A. hiiiulboiK— Dii'crt— rroBB.) Q. — Vou liu li«-ld out hnd j'ou btK?n left nlone? A. — We looked over the provisiona just a couple of duyH before we were ueized to hw how nineh there were; we took the Indian chief to look over the Indian beef ,Q to see how long it would last, and wo calculat i^d that it would Iu8t to the lat October. Q. — How long did you propose to remain in the Sea that BeaHon? A. — I'ntil the middle of September. (J. — You found proviHionH there to last you for that long? A. — Yes, until the Ist Ot-tober. GrosB-examinntion by Mr. Lansing: Q. — Mr. Lundberg, wlien did you arrive in Hitka? A. — We arrived in Hitka on the 5th Sejrtember 20 Q- — And you stayed on board your ship how long? A. — We stayed on Imard the shiii — well. I was on board the ship myself all the time I was there, except a couple of nights ashore. 1 (^. — You stayed there until the provisions gave out, did you? A. — Yes, we eat all the provisions until they gave out. Q. — And the provisions gave out, when? A. — After we had been there ten days, I cannot exactly say how many days, but about that. Q. — How much provisions did the policeman take on shore? 30 A. — I did not sec him take much — he took some rice. Q. — When did lie take them? A. — 1 cannot tell how much it was; I seen him take soir 'ce out of the hold. Q. — How much? A. — He too uple of "mattes" at one time. y. — What else? A. — He took some butter. Q. — How much? A. — I cannot exactly tell you. Q. — How do you know he took any? A. — I was on the poop, and I saw it pass «)ver the rail; he went down the hold, he had another man to help him. Q. — Do you know what it was he jmssed over the rail? A. — Yes, sir, rolled up in bags and something or anothe;-, there was beef and rice and some butter, Imt I cannot ex- actly say. ii. — How many pounds? A. — I did not say it. Q. — \bout how much? A. — I cannot tell you. Q. — Have you no idea? A. — He had it in a sack, there was about lalf a sack full of beef, that would weigh about 7r> lM)unds. Q. — How many sacks did you '".ave on board when you got to Riv'ka? A. — We did not have it in sacks, but he passed it out in siicks. Q. — How many pounds of bwf? A. — A barrel and a half. Q.— About ;«)(» |>ounds? A.— About that. Q. — He took KM) pounds? .\. — I do not know, I did not wei^h it, it may have been less. Q. — Do you know anything about it? A. — I know no more than I saw them puss the sack ashore. Q. — How did you know it was b«'ef? A. — I knew it be- cause I saw the pickle running out of the bag. Q.— What else did he take? A.— Some butter. Q. — How much? A. — I do not know. Q.— What did he liiiu afjain? A. — No. but I lii'ard thein kay thai he was back and forward for provisiona. Q. — You nay that you \v«'n' tht'n> youiwlf all thj* timo? A. — No. I WUH UHhurc Moiiit'tiiiieH. Q. — Your provisionH gave out ten davH after you were nt Sitka? A.— YeB, sir. Q. — What did you wll to pt proviNionM? A. — I Hold two coats and a Huit of clotheH, a pair of boots and oilskins. Q. — Did they come out of the slop-chest? A. — No, I did not have charge of that. (J. — What be<'ame of these things? A. — I do not know. Q. — How much money did the captain liavo with him? A. — That I cannot tell you, I do not think the captain had very much money. Q. — How much did you get in advanc<'? A. — Do you mean in Victoria? Q.— Yes, A.— I had |50 in advance. Q.— Did you have any of that left? A. — No, I did not carry money to sea. Q.— You spent it all? A.— Yes. Q. — Did the captain carry money? A. — Yes, he carried money. Q. — What became of that? A. — He bought three canoes for It to begin with, and what was done with the balance I cannot say. Q. — Did yon ask him for any money at Ounalaska or Sitka? A. — I asked Imn for money, but lie told me he had none. Q. — He went away on the steamer? A. — Yes, he went away on the steamer. He came and told me he was going. I asked him if I could not get rid of the crew on the same conditions he was going down. I asked him if he had any money left, to give me some, he said he had none. I asked him then, how he got down without money; he said: "I gave an order on my owner." 1 asked him if he could get us down the same way; he said he had tried and could not. Q. — Now, we will go back to Yokohama. How many ves- sels do you know were purchased there? Sir C. H. Tupper: — I drop])ed my questions about the "Diana" and the "Penelope." Mr. Lansing: — Very well I will not ask you about that. Q. — Where was it you say the contract for the "Ada" was signed? A. — When she was built? In the hotel. In the little room. Q. — Did you read that contract? A. — No. Q.— You do not know what was In it? A.— It was read out. Q.— It was all read out? A.— It was all read out. Q.— Did you sign it as a witness? A.— No, sir. but just standing there listening to it. Q. — What were yoti doing in there? A.— We were in there, and had a glass of wine over it after it was through. Q.— Wha: kind of money was in it? A.— I do not know exactly, he mentioned dollars — it was ^B.-'iOO. Q._lWhat kind of dollars? A.— They did not say. Q._There are two kinds of dollars in Japan? A.— There are three kinds. Q._They did not say what kind the price was to be in? A. Not as I remember. Q.__They did not have any gold dollars, did they? A.— They generally made their contracts in gold on such a basis. q"._ Would it not have been in pounds sterling if they made I ! I? m ! 5i 'llj'ljl ,1, I 794 {('. A. LiiiMltu'r^; — ('ross.) il in {,'1(1(1? A. — No, Ain'.'iicaii jjold if tlu-.v inade it in gold. (i. — Hut tlu' contriKl did not mention jjold? A. — I do not tliiniv it did, I do not rcnu inlu>r. Q. — V(Mi know it Wiis in silver, don'l vou? A.— I do not linow wlietlier i: was in <{ over the vessel with Mr. Orny at (he limo he purchase5 ro 30 (('. A. l-iiinlhcrff — Cross.) (i. — And .v«iu Hiiid jou raiiio over its u passciiyor? A. — VoH sir. S'ou iiaki'd me if I went over lier when be pur- ihased: I did not do tliat. I went over tiie vessel when he toolv her out. She was overhauled and caulked, and I was dcv.n to the doek wli -re she laid in. Q.— I>o vou think t!ie liardwood ,vo)i have mentioned is bet- ter than Ore}j(m pine? A._Yes, sir; it is as pood as teak and polishes as piod as teak. y.— And it will stand the weather and will stand the wa- ter? A. — Yea, very well. Q. — You say you were a pa-ssen^er on the ".Vda" to Vie- toria? A. — Well, T was a passenjjer I was n(»t i)aid for eominfi over. 1 just came over as a passeiifrer. Tliat was the apreenient; that I was to conu' over and join her here. Q. — After the seizure, and after yon returned to Victoria, did you c(>:>tinu( to live here? .\. — Yes, I came to live here. I jiot money enough from my ajrent to teleRraj)!! to my wife. 20 She was in Yokohama, and I telegraphed to lier to sell out everythiiSK there and come over here. I had no money to get back v/ith, and my owner had none. Q. — Do you remember the "Ada" coming down to Tort Townsend? A. — I do. Q. — IIow long was that after she had been seized? A. — It was a ard of (he auction and 1 was coming down to l)uy her. Q. — I suppose that this wood you have mentioned — kiachi wood — would last a long time? It would not be ruined? A. — Some of it might, but I do not think hard lumber like the kiachi would be injured. Q. — Yon were coming down to buy this ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you go ovei- to Port Townsend? A. — No, we were delayed in the Narrows. Q. — You missed the au< tion? A.--1 missed the auction. I got into Nanaimo the day of the auction or so. Q.— Y(tu think a few hundred dollars would put the ''Ada" back into shapi' again? A. — 1 did not see her. t^. — What do you think about her? You know this kiachi wood and hav'' seen so many vessels built of it? A. — I would not send ay one else to go down and buy her; I would like to see hi ■■ 'efore I bought her. I'erliaps she had been abused. an«l i f1 iike to have seen for myself. Q. — Do you know what she sold for'' A — I think she stdd for very little. ().— She sold for :f1.!M»(»? A.— L think it was for some- thing like that. Q. — Mr. (Jray was here in the city? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Tie knew about the »"!■.? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.-Vou talki'd with him about it. didn't .vou?. A. — No, 1 did not. I got a letter from A'ancouver ai)out the auction. I heard that they were going to come down with her. and I left word to send me word if they heard of the auction. Q. — Ml'. (Jray knew about the auction? .\. — T do not know whether lie did or not. I did not s( e Mr. tlrny f? A.— No, sir. Q- — Have you been out sealing since at all? A. — No. 30 Q. — Your only experience of sealing was in 1886? A.— I was interested in sealing in 188!>. Q- — Were you tlie white hunter tliey had on board? A.— Although I did not hunt much I hunted the stern boat, and the hunter hunted the other boat. Q. — You said you liad been engaged as liunter and mate? A. — That means to lake care of all skins and look after things in general. We intended to get a wliite crew wlien we start- ed, but we got Indians. Q. — How do you remember the number of days you low- 40 pr,.j y„,„. canoes in Behring Sea? A. — I had a small book which J kept to see how many lowering days 1 had. Q. — Have you got tiiat book now? A. — No. Q. — When did you see that book last? A. — About a year or two ago. I don't remember exactly. Q. — Where? A.— I left it in a house on tlie w«'st coast of Queen Charlotte Islands amongst other books. Q. — You knew that you liad a claim here at that time, didn't you? A. — I knew that I had a claim. Q. — You have a claim before the Commission now, liave you not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — ^^'ere you paid your wages for this year's sealing? A. — No, sir. Q. — You never have been paid? A. — No, sir. Q. — Are you tlien inter* sted in the owner recovering some tiling because of tliis claim? A. — Yes, for my ''lay out" of the skins we had on board when we were seized. Q. — You have that interest? A. — Yes. (J. — What was your lay? A. — 6(» cents per skin for every- (5o thing that came over tlie rail. Q. — Tliat is all tlie claim you have before this Commission? A. — That is all the claim I have against the owner. Q. — Just your "lay out" on the number of seals taken? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Yon received no wages outside of that? A. — No, sir. Q. — And if the owner gets anything back from these skins Ihnt were .seized yon expect to get yonr lay from him? A. — I <'Xpect liiia to pay me; yes. 50 m \o 20 30 40 50 60 797 (<'. A. Liiudbei'K — Cross.) Q. — Did >ou keep a log on board? A. — Ho. Q. — You were the mate? A. — Yes, but I did not keep a log. Q. — Who kept the log? A. — The captain or the navigator. Q. — Where is Captain Gordon now? A. — I do not know if he is here or not. Q. — Do you know whether he is in town or not? A. — I have not seen him since he went on the "Quadra" to Vancou- ver on Saturday. Q. — You saw him on Saturday here in town? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you expect to go sealing this season? A. — No, sir; I have not sealed since. Q. — What was your hurry, then, in getting away from Vic- toria? A. — I have a fishing station at Kutchen, and I am cutting ice for the company. Q. — Can you tell me what was your largest day's catch in Behring Sea? A. — Yes. Q. — Your own cateli? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you mean tiie largest day's catch? A. — Yes; I thin.; it was three seals. 1 went out but little. I had enough to attend to on board. Q. — You have had no other experience in sealing except that? A. — Yes, I had been sealing on two different occi- sions before. Q. — Where was that? A. — Out of Yokohama. Q.— On wliat vessel? A.— On the "North Star" and the •'Alexander." Q. — Did you kill these seals in the Sea? A. — Yes, w* killed the seals in the Sea on the "Alexander," but not on thd "North Star." (i.— How did you tak? them on the "North Star?" A.— We took them ashon'. Q. — You went asliore and clubbed them? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you not do tliat on the "Alexander?" A. — No. Q. — What weapons did you use on the "Alexander?" A. — I used rifi' Q. — Wliat lilt you use in Behring Sea? A. — Rifles. Q. — Did y(» you know anybody that stayed out after the liitli of September? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Who was it? A.— We stayed in the "Alexander" un- til the 2:!rd of October one year. Q. — That was not on lliis side of the water at all. Did yon know anybody in 1887 that stayed out as late as the 15th of Sejttember? A. — X<>. Q. — Did you know of anybody that stayed out as late as the 5th of Sii>teniber? A. — I did not know any of the other vess»>Is because we got out when we were seized. We earned seals in the "Alexander" later than that, and I was going on the same principle in the "Ada," and I had an idea I would stay late. Q. — Tfow nniny years ago was that? A. — 18HI. (). — Who was your captain? A. — Fred Folson. 0.— Where is he now? .\.— Tie is dead. He went down in the "llelmbloom" with all hands. lO "99 (('. A. LuiidbiM-g — ("1088.) (i. — You wore soioud mate on the "Alexander?'' A. — Yes sir. (i. — Who wa8 the tti-st mate? A. — Chris Anderson. Q. — Where is he now? A. — He is c-aptain of a boat iu Yo- kolianui tlie hist I heard of him. Tliat is tive or six years ago. Q. — Mr. Lundberg, jou spolve of Indian food on btiard tlie "Ada," what do you mean by "Indian Food?" A. — I mean biscuits and beef and salt, and sueli things as tliat. In fart, we gave them mostly anything sueh as w«' used ourselves. Q. — Wliat distinction do you draw tlien wlien you (juote "Indian Food?" A. — We liad it in two different departments. We had the "Indian Food" in the hold of the vessel; w«' had the white food aft in the lockers. Q. — I>id they have any dried flsh on board? A. — They had some. Q. — Did they have any seal meat? A. — Sometimes they 20 took seal meat. Q. — Aiid you gave them tea. sugar, and everything just the same as white men? A. — Not everything — I did not say everything. I said we gave them tea, sugar and biscuits Q. — At Ounalaska the Indians stayed on board all the time? A. — No, thoy stayed aboard about ten days. Q. — And then they left? A. — They went ashore and "tented." They liauled up the canoes and boats, so tluit it was hard to get back and forward. Q. — Did they take the canoes with them? A.^ — No, no 30 canoes; they were luuiled ashore before that. Q. — I)id the Indians go off in their canoes while you were there? A. — No, the canoes were all hauled up. Q. — What became of the canoes? A. — I suppose they are there now. Q. — Were not tlie Indians on shore during these ten days? A. — They were allowed to go ashore. After that I went ashore and every one else* went ashore. Q. — "i'ou stayed four or five days? A. — Yes. Q. — Were tlie Indians fed all that tinu> on the schooner? A.~Yes. Q. — And their canoes were all ashore all that time? A. — I do not remember exactly when their canoes were taken ashore. Q. — You said that iliey wei-e taken asliore as so(m as you got there? A. — I do not think I have said so. If I did I will call it back. I said that the canm's were taken ashore before we wer<' released or when we were rieased — I could not say for a certainty. Hut they were taken ashore and 50 hauled uj). After ten days we were deprived of the boat we came hack and forward to the vessel with. Q. — After five days you were allowed to go asliore when- ever you wanted to? A. — Five or six days — I don't know which. Q._I1i,l all these Indians eat on the vessel every day from the fifth up to Ihe tenth day? A.— They ate on the vessel as long as the i)rovisions lasted, and they came and went. Q._In 18S1 the "Alexander" was on the Russian side? A. —Yes. I started from Yokohama and went to the Kuiile Isl- 60 aiids. Q.— And you hunted ahmg the Kurile Islands in October? A. — No, sir. Q._Where w(re you then? A.— We were in the Ileliring Sea. Q._What part? A. — We were to the southward and east, ward of St. Oeorge Island. Q._On the American side? A.— Yes, it is on the Ameri- can side I sujijtose ys, we hoisted the flag for the steamboat as she came al«mg, as we did not know wliat slie was. lo 20 Re-cross-examination by Mr. Lansing: Q. — Mr. Lnndberg, did Mr. (Irav own the "Penelope" in 18S7? A.— Yes. Q.— Did he own her in 1888? A.— Yes, I think so. Ke-direet examination by Sir V. H. Tapper: Q. — Do yon know Ihat Mr. Gray sold the "Penelope" to pay part of his debts after the seiznre? A. — I do. Sir C. H. Tapper: — I suppose Mr. L\indberg can go away. Mr. Dickinson- — Y'es. Witness Lundberg took the stand :ithis own request to correit a statement made by him when testifying before. Ity Mr. Petei's: ,Q Q. — ^Vhat statement is it you want to correct? A. — I made a mislake in the year, when I come to call myself back. In- stead of being on the "Alexander" in 1881 it was in 1882. (J. — Is that the only statement you want to correct? A. — That is the only stateiueut I want to correct. 50 Gustave Hansen, re-called and examined out of order by 40 consent, December lit, 180G, as to the "Winifred," Claim No. 24. The Commisioner on the part of the TTnited States:— I un- derstand, Jilr. lN;ter8, that yon tiled no reply in this case. Mr. Peters: — 1 did not think it necessary. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — And yoH do not intend to. Mr. Peters: — No, we thought the issues clearly defined by the two pleadings. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Do you remember a srliooner called the "Winifrt»d?" A. — Yes, sir. i-i. — Had you any interest in her? A. — I had. Q. — What inlerest had vou in her? A. — One-third. Q.— Did you seal in the "Winifred" in I8!l2? A.— Yes, fir. Q.— Where did you seal from? A.— From Victoria. Q.- vVhat size of a vessel was the "Winifred?" A. — I Ihink she was put down for 13 tons but she was considei?bly larger than that. Q.— She was used in sealing? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— In this year she sailed from Victoria on a sealing trip, did she? A.— Yes, sir. Q._What number of boats or canoes had she? A.~Fo«j boats. 51 60 P ^1 1; mmw '\ f ! i| ;!. ■ m 'l|lji!|i; :i!! I 20 30 803 (tiustave UiiiiMoii — Diicct.) Q. — Four senling boatB? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — No stern boat? A. — No, sir. the stern boat was a reffiilar sealing bout. Q. — How many of a crew all told had you? A. — Nine. Q- — How many men did yon use to a boat when hunting'^ A.— Two. Q. — Were these smaller boats than the ordinary sealing ,Q boats we have been talking about? A.— There were two 17- foot boats and two 18- font boats. Q- — What guns did you have on board when yoti started? A. — We had shot guns and rifles. Q.— How many shot guns? A.— I don't remember, sir. Q. — Do you remember the class of guns they were? A. — There were some Greener guns and, I think, there were one or two Smith gnns. Q.— These were all breech loaders, of course? A. — Yes, sir. Q- — And you 7»rovisioned for the voyage, and for how long? A. — I was provisioned for the Behring Sea trip. Q- — For how many months did you calculate that trip? A. — I left pretty late, I think It was about six or seven months. Q. — What happened after you started on your trip? Did .you get into Behring Sea without any trouble? A. — I had to run through the Unlmak Pass with a southeaster. Q. — You were warned not to go into Behring Sea? A. — Yes, sir, twice. Q. — By an American ship and by a British ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — As a matter of fact you did go into the Behiing Sea? A. — Yes, sir, I had to. Q. — Explain to the court why it was that you had to go into the Behring Sea? A . — I was hunting over off Lavathnak near the Unimak Pass. Q. — Yon were seal hunting off the coast of that Island? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— That was when? A.— The 12th July. 40 Q. — You were not in Behring Sea then? A. — No. Q. — You were outside of the Sea then? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — What hai)pened Whon you were hunting tliere? A. — A southeaster sprang up and put me on a lee shore. Q. — A heavy southeaster or what? A. — Yes, sir, a heavy southeaster. Q. — What did you do? \. — I called the crew and told them our positi.on and told them: You know we were warn- ed twice not to go into the Sea, but I think it my duty as master of the vessel to let you know our position ; we are on a 50 lee shore and only 24 or 25 miles from the beach; if the wind goes down we are all right, we will weather it, but if not, we will be among the rocks; I have the bearing of the pass and can make for it, for the safety of your lives. I can run through, but you know we were warned. Then they said: Whatever vou think is right, do it. And then stood away. I was hardly through the pass when I had to come down to double reef foresail and I lay for three days on the same tack. gQ Q. — You hove to? A. — Hove to, yes, sir. Q. — You had got through the Pass then when you hove to? A. — Yes, sir, I was partly through, so to say through, I had to drift a long time. Q. — After the three days' storm was over .what did you do? A. — I started to work to the eastward to get out. Q. — What pass were yon going out through? A. — The wind turned up to tlie southward, and more southerly, and finally sou" sou'west. and T kept on tlie starboard tack all the time which took nie oft" towards Aemak Islands, 80 5 10 20 (GiiHtav*' HmiHi'ii — J)ir('tt.) Q.— What pass would that take you towards? A.— FalsL' Pass. Q. — WaH it your intention to go through tliut pasH? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — As a nuitter of fact you never got o\it? A. — No, not that pass. Q. — When you were going in to Uuiniak I'ass, did you meet any other cruiser or men-ofwar? A. — 1 did not, but the "Rush" was there. Q.— You did not see the "Rusli"? A.— No, but I found out afterwards. Q. — Did the weather get finer before you got to False Pass A. — It droi)j>ed ealni. Q. — You were then becalmed? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — There was no wind at all? A. — No wind at all. Q. — During that time did you .-ee a seal? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And I believe yoi; shot .1 few? A. — Yes. sir. (J. —How many? .^. — I liMinol say, but I had some nn deck when the "Rush ' sei/.ed me. Q. — What happened to you? A. — The "Riish" seized me. O — Do you i-euieinbtr wti,\t day that was? A. — I think it was »he 20th July. Q. — Who cave on board you from the "Rush"? .\. — A llvuti'naiit and an ensign. (}.-What did they do with you? A. — Tliey took me in tow and towed me to Ounalaska. Q. — How long did it take you to go to Oiinalaska? A. — 30 We got there the next day. Q. — What was done with you when you got to Ounalaska? A. — Well, I was first tied to the stern of tlie "Rush" some days and made fast to a buoy tliero. That's all they did, and they sent me aboard the ".Mbatross." Q. — What was the "Albatross," a revenue cutter? A. — Fish Commission boat. Q. — And took you where? A. — Sitka. Q. — Who did they take with you, any of your crew? A. — All of the crew except the cook were taken to Ritka in the 40 "Albatross." Q. — What became ot your vessel? A. — The "Albatross" towed her across. Q.— To where? A.— To Sitka, Q. — So that the vessel and <>rew all got to Sitka? A. — Yes, sir. O. — What happep'^^d to vou uj) there? A. — I was put in jail. Q. — Were you put in this court liouse or jury room, or whpr(>? A. — I was j»ut in the jail toeether with Indians, white men and anv other person arrested. O.— That was the jail itself? A.— Yes. sir. O. — And you were kept there liow long? A. — I was there until the 19th December. O. — Were you tried before the court? A. — In Februarvf when the court set I was up there and there was somethinc read out to me. but T was never tried. Q — How did you get out? A. — Mr. Maloney. attorney, over to Juneau came over and bailed me out. Q. — I believe thev api)ointed you a lawyer, did tliey not? A. — Yes. sir, Mr Clark. Q. — What happtned to him just about that time? A. — He was put out of the country just before my case canie on. Q. — Did you employ him yourself? A. — No, sir. Q. — Who nominated him? A. — The jtidge. Q. — How did you get out of jail? A. — Mr. Mahmey came over and bailed me out. SO 60 mm !)'!|«i|ji IlilllSil w : i lO 20 30 40 50 60 804 (Gustavo UauHi'U— Uirett— Ci'ims.) (i.— Did .v«»ii get away then? A.— I went down to Fort \Vn«n}?le, flrst to Douglas Island, to Juneau and from theiv to Fort Wrangle. ti.— What happened to .vou then? A.— I fitted out a new vessel. Q.— And did what? A.— Fittwl lier out and started away from Juneau. (i.— You didn't go back in Deeenilter to 1h' imprisoned any more? A. — No, sir. ii. — What hapiH'ned to the seluMtner, did you ever get her back? A.— The "Winnifred "? Q.— Yes. sir. A.— No, sir. ii. — Can you give me an idea what the value of the "Win- nifred" is or was? A. — Well. 1 can't say. I took her and toro up her old cabin and made a new cabin. Q. — How long Imd you had the ''Winnifred" or had an in- tei'est in her? A. — Just that time. ii. — That was the first time you liad iM'en out in her? .V. - Yes, sir. Q. — .\nd when had you got her; obtained an interest in her? A. — Higlit in \'ictori«, tlu> same spring. Q. — .\nd wliat liad you |>aid for lier? A. — Well, it was never settled because I didn't j)ay the numcy, that dejH'uded on the catch. Q. — You did not pay for her, as a matter of fact. What did you agr»'e to pay for her? A. — I hadn't nuide any settle- ment. Q. — Who did you g<'t her from? .\. — Mr. Spring. Q. — Was he interested in the catch? A. — Yes, sir. (J. — Before you went out. had you put repairs on her? .\. — Yes, sir. Q. — What had you done to her? A. — Made a new cabin; caulk«*d her over. Q. — Mr. Spring will be able to give evidence of tlie value better than you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Of course evei-ything on board the vessel v>'as taken? A. — Everything was taken with her. Q. — What hapiH>ned to your crew, were tliev detained at Sitka? A.— Well, they were— Tlie rommissioner on the part of the United States; — Wliy do you go into that, Mr. Peters, tliere is no allegation in your claim about the crew, only the mate and master. Mr. Peters: — I shall ask as to the mate then. (To witness): Q. — What b<'came of the mate, was he detained with you? A. — No, sir. I sent the mate on board the "Pathfinder." I was to go with tlie "Pathfinder" on tlie Fair Weather giHiunds when she lost her captain. Q. — Then the mate was not taken to Sitka? A. — No, sir. Q. — As a matter of fact, did you send tlie crew home, or were tliey sent home? A. — Tliey <'ame down by the steamer. Q. — They came right down? A. — No. they were there for some time. Q. — T'ntil the steamer came? A. — Except two. One was l»aid by the United States; a witness against me. Q. — So the ship was lost and everything in it? A. — Yes, sir. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Wlien are you going away from here. Captain? A. — I don't know, sir. 8o5 (dllMtaV*' lIllIIHCII — CidHrt.) Mr. Dlfkiiitum : — I dcHirt' to leHtTve tlu* crossexuiuiuatlon of thiH witness until we cnn fxaniini' the i^eeord go far as this veHHel if) concerned. ,Q Onstave Hansen was recalled further in the cnBo of the "Winnifred," D.'wniber 22nd, 189(5. CrosH-exaniination liy Mr. UitkhiMon: il. — I think you have f4tat<>d. Captain HauHen, that in 18U2, when you started out on your voyage you had u«» inten- tion of entering Uehring Sea? A. — ^o, Kir. Q. — VVliei-e did you outfit, Captain Uanwn? A. — In Vic- toria, Hir. y. — For what time did you outtit? A. — It niUHt have been 20 in March. Q. — What time did you sail? A. — I don't rememl>er. y. — Did you have a log book that year? A. — No, I had a kind of a scrap book. 1 wasn't compelled to keep it. Q. — Did you keep any log book except the scrap book? \. — Nothing Itut the scrap book. y. — And for how hmg did you outtit? A. — For the sum mer cruise. Q. — Did you outtit to be gon** until the latter part of Aug- ust? A. — Yes, it would be Septcmln'r; didn't expect to get 3° Imv.k before HeptemlH-r. (i. — Vou have b«H'n sealing fiU" tw«*lve years? A. — Mort? than that, sir. ii. — Did you ever know a season wlu'U s»'als could be taken in the Fair Weather (Srouuds or in the North Pacific in July or August? A. — I have been very — Q. — You have had a hmg exjierience, Captain, some 12 or 15 years, in sealing, you went sealing away back in 1880? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Now, I want to know from your large experience in sealing whether you ever knew seals to be got in the Fair Weather Urounds or in the North Pacific, outside of Behring Sea, in July or August? A. — Yes, sir, I have got them my- self in July. Q. — That is in the hnnting grounds for the season? A. — No. Q. — You know the habits of the seal .so far as a seal hun- ter can know tlu'm, and that in Jtily and August they are usually on the Pribilott" Islands, are they? A. — Pai-t (tf 50 them are. Q. — And the seals in Behring Sesi are caught from the sejils that go out to feed from Pribilofl: Islands, are they? A. — Part of them are and part of them come through the Pass. Q. — They cease coming through the Pass about the 15th of July, do they not? A. — I have seen then come in the month of .Vugust. Q. — Not in great numbeis? A. — Well, quite a few. Q. — As a matter of fact, you know this to be true, do you not, Captain Hansen, that the seals come there to breed, commence to come early in July and stay through July and August? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And as they breed the females, pups and young sealsj go out to feed in Behring Sea. Is that true? A. — The pups bom there — there are a very few attempt to seal any distance from shore. Q. — That is where yon get the seals while they are breed- ing there? A. — Y'es, sir. 40 60 ]'' I 8o6 •!''! IliJ ii Q ((hihtnvc HaiiHen — rmsn.) -And that Ih tlit> herding place in the bri'edinf( seaRon, in .Inly? A.— V«'b, sir. Q. — And from that on they stay thronnh Au|;uHt? A. — Ypb, sir. Q. — Is it not a fact that a Rnrnt quantity of wmiIh or Heal flslioiicB cxiHt in ntOiriiiR Soa? A. — Y«'B, Hir. (i. — Now, Honio one said, Ca|))ain HiiniM'n, thjit in regard to Home teHtimony you nave (lie oilier day that you Hjioke of lo wanting; to eorreet Bomething. If th»'re Ih anything in your direet examination that you denire to eorrett before I pro- ceed, pleiiHe do HO. A. — I waH asked if I was at the PribilotT iHliindH in 1H<>(). jind I think I said "No." I think I wub there. i}. — A\'n» there anything else in your testimony you desire to ex]>lain before I proceed with the crosB-examination? A. — \o. sir. (i. — Well, you were there on the coast for seals in July, 1H!(2, were you not? A. — Yes, sir. ~° Q. — And had fitted out for a voyage to last until the first of Septemlx'r. a sealing voyag"? A. — Yes. .-'r. sometime in September. Q. — Having no intenticm of going into Behring Sea? Do you remember, Paplain TTansen, about a month before you were seized you were at an island, at Afognac Island? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What (ime were you up there at Afognac Island? A. — I don't remember, sir, must have been in the early part of 20 July, J think. Q. — Early part of July or latter part of June? A. — Some- where along there; I think in the early i)ai't of July. Q. — You had souu' seals on board, did yi n not? A. — I had some before. Q. — Uef<»re you came into Afognac Ishiaci? .i. — Yes, sir, a few. Q. — You had about how many that you had taken -vutside? A.-— I think there was 104. Q. — Was that your entire catch for that season up to that 40 time? A. — Yes. sir. i}. — Yon had caught them from the time yoii went out. if you went in March, on the coast, on the Fair Weatlu-r grounds and all tol'i outside of I{«'hring Sea. 104? A.— I didn't tea*! before I came up to Afognac Island. Q. — These were the seals you had caught during the sea- son? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you came into Afognac Island in the latter part of Jun«> or July, having no intention of going to Behring Sea? 50 A. — No, sir. I was told not to. Q. — And yon had seal.s t>' the number of 104? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What did .vou do with them? A. — They went down to Victoria in the "Kate." Q.— Was the "Kate" in that harbor off Afognac Island? A. — She came in there a day oi- to before I left. Q. — And you sent down your si'als by her? You have the same owners? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you find any other ships in that harbor? A. — Yes. sir, there was 12 or l.S. I think, altogether. Q. — Now. being at Afognac Island and after you had dis- charged your seals upon the "Kate," you were in the harbor at Afognac Island, were you not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you rememl)er what that harbor is called? A. — Tonki Bay. Q. — You were then in about what latitude and longitude? 60 807 20 30 (( I IIHtll \ (• I IllIIKCIl — ( 'l'()«<..) iWltncHH iiMlinilcK on niiip, Vol. :», Aiiii'i-ifiiii U** priitt — Mh|> of Ht'liring Ht'ii aiui tli<> North I'lieitlc, folluwiiiK INige (111), which wiiH Hhowii th«' CoiniuiHHioiiorH). (j. — How, uftc'f beiug at. Touki l\ay and Afognac iHhiud (liHchurging tho. houIh, whore did >uu go, in what diruetion? A. — Hulled to tht weHtwurd. Q. — Aud wlieu you were at Afognac Itilund, what iH '° known an the Fair Weather Grounds were to the euHtwurd, were they not? A. — Yes, sir. y. — Did you sail to tlie westward? A. — Yes, sir. (^ -And liow long did you sail to the westward? A. — To tlie Hhuniagin Islands. Q. — Did you get any seals? A. — Y'es, sir. (j. — Ilow nuiuy did you get down there to the Hhuniagin Islands? A. — I don't remember how many. ii. — Did you get five? A. — More than five. Q. — How many now, captain? A. — I can't tell., t^. — Healing was not very good, was it, not such as you had been accustomed to? A. — No. Q. — Did you get ten? A. — Yes, I got more than ten. Q. — How many will you swear to? A. — That is moi-e than I can say. Q. — You would not swear whether there was more than 20, would you? A. — I think I got more than 20. Q.— Was it more than 30? (i.— I think I got more than 30 too. Q. — Forty? A. — I can't say exactly how many. Q. — How many times did you lower down in that vicinity? A. — Well, I don't remember that either. Q. — Did you lower at all, Captain Hansen? A. — Oh, yes. y. — How many times? A. — 1 can't tell, sir, I don't re- member. il. — Hut you are sure you got seals there? A. — Oh, yes. Q. — Y'ou didn't luive such good seal catching as you were accustomed to, did you? A. — No. Q. — Where did you go from the Sliumagin Islands? A.— 4° Went down between Hannak. Q. — Htill further to the scmthwest? A. — Hetween Hannak and Uninmk outside the Unimak Pass. Q. — Did yon get seals at Hannak and Unimak Pass? A. — Y-^es. Q. — How many did you gt't? A. — I don't remember. Q. — Can you tell witliin ten? A. — No, I don't know. Q. — What kind of seals did you get there at that time, early in July? A. — Well, there was mixed seals, two and three-year-old seals, some cows. Q. — And you sealed about the I'ass there some? A. — Yes. Q. — And Uninmk Pass is the usual passage of the seal herd, is it not? A. — Mostly. Q. — That is the highway of the seals in Behring Hea, is it not? A. — Y'es, sir. Q. — And you sealed about there, did you not, to the west and east and to the front of Unimak Pass? A. — Yes. Q. — How many seals did you get? A. — I don't remember, sir. Q. — Well, you gave us some idea of the numl)er of your catch in your direct examination pretty well on s«'veral oc- casions. A. — I think I had 65 or 66 altogether, and I lower- ed once or twice in Behring Hea, of <'Ourse, the rest I got out- side. Q. — You liad 60 or 65 altogether, including what you took in Behring Hea afterward? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In order to fix that, and not knowing the time you en- tered Behring Hta, how many did you get in Behring Sra? A. — That 1 can't tell, either, sir, I can not remember. 50 60 t ■, •IIJllll; M ili:i: I'lltlll 20 30 40 so 60 808 (Gustavo Ht.naou — Ciosk.) v about (he periods to go to Itehring Sea to hunt them in July and August? Yon knew all that before you started on the voyage? . A. — Oh, yes, sir. Q. — And yon outtitted without any intention of entering Hehring Sea? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — For this voyage up to the lirst of September, you are still sure of that? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — \Yhen ;,ou outfitted you did not intend to enter Hehring Sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — So it was not on account of your Iwing told not to go that you did not intend to go? A. — No, sir. Q. — Now, after leaving Sannak island will you be kind en- ough to tell me in what direction yon went in sailing about Sanmik Island? A. — OIT here (indicating.) Q. — You have said that yon fished around to the east and west of the Inimuk Pass for seals? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— And off Inimak Pass in (he North Pacitic? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And then yon went to the eastward, did you not still more to the eastward? A. — 1 went through the Pass, ott' here (indicating) to the nor' nor'-east; stood on a starboard tack. Q. — Ytni were off Avatanak. Was that th(> Island from which you were 20 miles iiway? A — .No, sir. Q. — S'ou w«'re alxmt 10 or 12 miles off, you said, on direct examination? A. — 2r> from here (indicating I'ninuik). Q. — Hut when yon were oft" Avatanak Island how far were you? A. — When I lowered the boats I was about 12 miles ofT. Q. — Rut I am going to bring you to the jwint when the southeaster came up, where were you then? A. — Just about here (indicating.) Q. — You said on direct examination that yon were about 25 miles away from an island. What island was that? A. — T'ninmke, I think, 2;" or ^0 perhaps. Q. — Then yon ealed a consultation of y<»ur crew? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You were abonr 25 miles off TTninnike Island, y miles? .\. — No, t should not think that far, when I tacked ship it was about 12 or a little over. lO 30 40 so or four voiir A.— A.- 20 809 (ruisfiivc Hansen — Oross.) Q— Wlien you tucked sliip you tacked ship bccauae a southeaster had come up? A.— No, the wind was nor'-nor,- east. Q.— Until what time? A.— Until about three o'clock in the afternoon. Q. — Now, tell us where you were when you calh>d consultation of your crew, just mark it on the map. (Marking: on geodetic survey. (Witness indicates.) Q. — That is where th- south easter overtook you? Yes, sir, (indicat(>s in line of 54 and about lialf aii inch to the west of the 164th degree on map) about 1(5415. The OommisHion(>r on the part of the United Stati's: — That d(M's not help nie at all. Can you not give the beirings, Mr. witness, approximate distance? Witness: — Yes; just above here (indicating) Mr. Dickinson: — How far off from Unimtik Island? The Commissioner on the part of Iler Majesty: — ITow did Unimak Island bear? Witness:— About nor'-nor'-wost. I could not see it, when the southeaster shut in it got thick. Q. — You knew afterwards about how far it was? A. — I'he reason I called attention I had the bearings about that Q. — Your wind was in the soulliwest that struck y«»u? A. — No, southeast. The Oommissioner on the part of the TTnited States: — EX; cnse nu', Mr. Oickinson; this testimony that you have got so far do«'S not give me the slightest assistance. I would like to know whether he was east or west of Unimak Pass when this wind struck him. Was it west of the island. Avatanak, spoken of? Mr. Dickinson: — He has left the Avatanak. The (commissioner on the part of the United States: — T would like to know about his distances, so I can follow his vessel. Mr. Dickinson: — He gives the latitude exact, and gives tha longitude with compaisitive exactness. The Commissioner on the part of the TTnited States: — To enable me to follow his vessel in my mind it would nol be of the slightest help to me to know the latitude and longi- tude. I have got (he course of the wind, southeast, now, if he will give me the Is'arings (►f (he Pass and the bearings of any land he could see. then I could follow him. Hy Mr. Dickinson; \ ! Q.— (live us the bearings, captain? A. — Unimak bore, I think, nor'west by west. (i. — .Vbout what distance from it? .\. — I had been hove to after I came on beard for a little whih'. and I didn't know what to do; I must have been hove to for a couple of hours, Cq and I called all iiands and told them of the fact of our p«wi- tion and told them that <)s yet I knew the bearings of Unimak and w«)uld try and get through, but if I laid thei'o a little hmger the current might put me out. Q. — What then was your distance from Unimak? .\. — It had shut in already. Q. — Did you take your bearings? What did you tell your crew as to your distance from the siiore? .\. — I told them what I knew about it. ■ HI ir^^ ' ' H! Pf! ■ ■ ].;■■■' |i;i ■ it If Tm ;!i.h:j,;! : 'I l|).:|. i ' ' , ^ 1, lO 20 30 40 50 60 810 fGiistavt' Hanson — rross.) Q. — What did you tell them as to your distanre? A. — I don't remember exactly. Q. — What distanee were you? A. — I must have been from fifteen to twenty milt>8 fi-om tlu're, and probably twenty-five or thirty miles from T^nimak. Q. — Give the b«'a rings of XTnimak from you? A. — We bore about northwest by north, or nor'nor'west. Q. — About 25 or 30 miles away? A. — Yes. Q. — Now. you say you hove to there for a couple of hours; the wind still kept to the southeast? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And increasing all the time? A. — Increasing all the time. Q. — Is there no harbour at Rannak Island? There is a good harbour is there not? A. — I never have been in there, I have be«>n in the harbours in here (indicating). Q. — You are perfectly well aware that there is a good har- bour there? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you are perfectly well aware that there is a good harbour this side of False Pass, is there not? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— What do you mean by "this side"? East or west. Mr. Dickinson: — I mean west of False Pass. Q. — There was a good harbour in there? A. — Yes, I knew two or three good harbours. Q. — Without going around into the Pass was there not? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You did not talk about going into False Pass did you? A. — No, sir. Q. — So that there were harbours at Sannak, there was a harbour to the west of False Pass, and a vei^ good one, you sjiy? A. — Yes, a very good harbour. Q. — W^ell, with a southeast wind you could always* sail to the northeast, could you not? A. — I could not <"arry sail. Q. — Could not carry sail there was so much wind? A. — No, sir. Q. — You could not carry sail to the northeast? A. — No, sir. Q. — To keep your headway? A. — No, sir. Q. — Ordinarily or after a gale of wind I suppose you could sail with a south or east wind to the east, could you not? A. — No, sir. Q. — How many points off the east? A. — Six. Q. — You would have to sail six points off the east? A. — From the wind. Q. — Did you not tell us that the wind hauled into the souili? A. — After I came into Pehring Sea, that is what I said. Q. — Did yon not say it hauled to the east continually? A. — After I gor into Pehring Sea? Q. — It did not haul to the south in there? A. — Not before I wa;^ through the Pass. Q. -It was a southeast gnle? A. — Yes, sprung up from the southeast; it didn't start to haul to the southward before, T think, the second day. Q. — Now, in the Pass itself, are there no harbours behind Ashmiak Island? A. — Not for a southeaster. Q. — No harbour behind Tagalda Island? A. — No, sir. Q. — Is not this fair harbour north of Tagalda? A. — Not to my knowledge, I never have been there. Q. — Why is it no good? A. — I should not think it would be. there would be too much tide there. I have bwn here at .\kan Island iiiso at Akntan. 8it 20 ^Oiistnvc Hiiiisen — Piobs.) Q. — -In the running into Reining Sea, wliat course did ,vou take ninning through T'niinali I'ass? A. — I liove to immed- iately, with double reefed foresail. Q. — Where did you heave to with a double-reefed foresail? A. — Just about here (indicating). Q, — Just inside the Pass? A. — Yes, hardly through the Pass. Q. — Captain Hansen, could you not have kept out of Behring Sea? A.— Not that tinie. Q. — You have been a seaman how many years? A. — Oh, sin«^ I was a boy. Q. — You did not want to go in, did you? A. — No, sir. Q. — Well, you hove to right out or inside of the Sea, at the end of the Pass, did you? A. — Yes. Q. — From there wJiere did you go? A. — I didn't go any- where, before the gale was over I had drifted up to here (in- dicating). Q. — How many miles did you drift? A.— I think it was the third day after I came through. Q. — You were clear up to the Pribiloff Island? A. — No- where near it, I suppose she drifted about 20 miles in 24 hours. Q. — About how many miles did she drift in the northwest? A.— Might have drifted from 90 to 100 miles. Q. — Then the wind turned into a southerly, I think you said? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How did you come to drift to the northwest with a J^ southerly wind? A. — She made pretty near a dead drift. Q. — But you say you drifted to the north west about 40 miles a day, did you not? A. — I don't think she drifted that much, about 30 miles in 21 hours. Q. — Positively bearing in her drift to the northwest? A. — Nor,-nor'-west to west. Q. — Now, after you got through drifting where did you go? A. — Put her to the wind. Q. — Was it east or west wind? A. — The wind, I think, 40 when I got the main sail on her, the tirst time, I think the wind was about soutli southwest. Q. — With a south southwest wind after having drifted up there could you make the pass? A.— No, sir, not from wheie I was. Q. — You could not make it by tacking, could you? A. — I suppose I could by tacking. Q.— Which way did you sail after drifting up here north northwest, which way did you sail when you could sail and did make sjiil? A.— 1 i)Ut her to the wind. 5° Q.— In which direction'' A.— Put her on the wind on the starboard tack. Q.— And where did you fetch up on that tack? A.— I fetched up close by the Aniack Island. Q. — How far up by It? A. — I came on the wind then, south southwest, was heading for south sotitheast, which would pull me right up here. (Indicating.) Q._T«> Atuack Island? A.— No, I was carrying all sails then, I could see the volcano — Shlshaldin. Q.— You could see that. What else cotild you see? A.— I saw Amak. Q._About how far off did you bear from Amak? A.— .\mak bore about east or east northeast. Q.— .\nd how far distant? A.— About IS or 20 miles. Q.— And what did you do then? A.— I had to lie there, it was calm. Q.— Did you anchor? .\.— No. Q._rH(I vou drift along anyway? .\.— No. it was very smooth then up there, I lowered a boat iind went otit htinting. 60 1 1 ; ^ rr'i r 5/ ' I 8 13 !^ li !|: lO 20 30 40 50 60 (On sta v(> Ha nso n — froHi*.) Q.— You lowered a boat and w«nt out buntinc seals? A. —Yes. Q.— Did you not say in your direct examination that you ran down to PaJse Pass? A.— I did not say False Pass. Q.— Did you not run to False Pass? A.— I went out by it. Q.— IIo>v near did you go to False Pass? A.— When I pot here (indicating) it dropped calm. Q- — How far were you off from False Pass? A. — About 20 or 25 miles probably. Q. — Did you change your position before thai? A. — No, sir, not before tlie '"Rush" came and took me away. Q. — Amak Island was in plain sight? A. — Yes, but it was f*>KBy there sometimes. Q. — Was the line outside of the volcano, outside of the TTni- make Island in sight? A. — I seen it. Q. — You saw enough to know vou wcn-e off False I'ass? A. —Yes. Q. — You could see t nough to know that you were off False Pass, and you were near enough to recognize Amak Island? A.— Yes. Q. — Did you take any bearings? A. — I think I did. Q.— At the time? A.— I think I did. Q. — Did you know? A. — Yes, I always do take bearings in cases like that. Q. — How numy seals did you get in Hehring Sea? A. — I don't remember, sir, I think the day I got seized I got 12 or 14. Q. — How many had you before? A. — I don't rememln'r. Q. — How many had you before that? .\. — I d<»n't know that we hjwered mor<> than two days. Q. — How long did you lie there? A. — I was two days be- calmed when the "Rush" came. Q. — Now, I think I understand you, rajttain Hansen, that when you got up to Sitka that a (romplaint was tih'd against your ship and the court appointed somebody to defend the ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Wliom did you say the court appointed? A. — A man by the name of f'lark. Q. — Did you ever hear of a man by the name of Hughes? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you emjtloy Hughes? A. — No, I didn't emi)loy him; I understo(Ml he came n\> there to w<»rk on the "CNxpiit- 1am." Q. — Came up from where? A. — T don't know whether from here or Seattle. Q. — Did riark appear for you in any way? A. — No, I was never called up. Q. — Did Clark ai)i)ear for the shij)? A. — No, he never had n chance to, he got sent away from court himself. Q. — Hut someb(»dy else did appear for the ship, did they not? A. — Hughes was supposed to. I don't know whether he did or not. he came in to see me one time, in here. Q. — Do you know about any answer in that case youi'self, through Hughes; did you sign it? A. — No, sir, I don't re- member any. Q. — As master of the ship? A. — That I can't remember. Q. — Did you not, tiirough Hughes, intervene to defend the ship? A.— Hughes came over — Q.— Did you? A.— No. sir, I did not. Q. — Tlie int Mr. Hughes, did it? A. — No, sir. Q. — Who did a)>polnt Hughes? A. — He was sent up from down here. Bi3 lO 20 30 (< in stave Iliinscn — Cross.) Q. — Seattle, was he not? A. — I don't know; I think he was an Anierlean hiwyer. Q. — Did yon not know where nughes oaiue from? A. — I think he came from Seatth*. Q. — Or was he sent up from Victoria? A. — That I cannot tell, but he came from somewhei-e down hen?. Q. — Wliat makes you say the court ai)i)ointed a man by the name of Clark to defend this ship; were you in tiourt; did you hear anything of the kind? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You heard the court say? A. — The judge asked if I had a lawyer. I told him "No." Q. — Was this for the ship or for yourself? A. — ^Vell, I don't know, there was nothing sj)ecial said about what I was there for. Q. — You were in jail and brought een in coui-t before — do you mean to say that after your ship was seized, you, a« master of the ship, and for Mr. Spring, did nothing about defending that ship? A. — I could not do nothing in jail. Q. — Did they refuse to send a letter out? A. — No. Q. — Did you ask to send a lett«>r ? A. — Well, I think there was a sdiooner there which gave me a sack of potatoes. Q. — What schooner was that? A. — I don't remember which one it was. Q. — A British sealer? A. — Y'^es, sir. Q. — What did you give for the siick of potatoes? A. — I gave them nothing; they made me a present of it. Q. — Any other exchange of civilities between you and 40 other ships? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you have a log on the "Winnifred"? A. — No, sir, only a scrap book. Q. — You didn't keep a log? A. — No, sir. Q- — Have you got any of your books? A. — No, sir, the captain of tlie "Rush" took it from me. The Conmiissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — I would like to learn, Mr. Peters, why he might not have come in the -Q lee of Ugomak Island when he entered the Pass? Mr. Peters:— At the same time I wish to point out to the court that from my point of view it is perfectly immaterial whether he intended to go to Behring Sea or not, because he has not been prosecuted as he ought to have been prosecuted under the modus vivendi. 60 Mr. Dickinson :- this ground. By Mr. Peters: -The record cross-examination covereri Q- — The judge wants you to tell him why you did not go in under the lee of Ugomak Island at the entrance of Unimnk Pass? A. — Bcause there was no shelter there with a south- easter, sir. The Commissioner im no anchorage back there th e part of Her Majesty:— Is then m III I !' II nil I I Sri'. •Ill'ljlill l;l- Si8 ((iiiMfiiv • lliiiim'n — 1{»' (lirccl.) Wifiu'HH: — Tlicrc is a very Htronn Hdt* flicro, and th<> iRland itNt'lf In Ioii^ and nairow in (lie nortliwcsl and HoutlicaNt di- lection, 8(» tluTc would not be any Hlu'ltcf. H.v Mr. PetopH: — Q. — llcsidc tlnit tlioro In a vwy sliontr tide? A. — Yes Q. — At wliat rate d(M'H tlic tide run? A. — I wa« onri' in lO tli«' "Alexander" for a day and a lialf trvintf ♦<> >.'et tlironfili lliere in a nortli wester. Tlie Ooinnilvsioner on tlie i»art of tlie T'nited Slatis: — Is tliere anytliiiifr in liis evidence fioni wliicli tlie conrt can draw any inference wlietlier lie was taken inside tlie marine lea)?ne or outside. Mr. Peters: — We liave tlie most distinct evidence. The ('oniniissi <]neston. Kediivct examination resumed liy ^fr. Peters: Q. — I will jiisi pu( this (|ueslion to you. Captain Hansen. When you wen' seizt d liow far were you from the nearest land? State about how far. A. — About IS or 2(1 miles sir. (i. — In order (o m:ike it clear, show me again on the chart go .vour position when seized? A. — I was about tlit>re. ii. — -lust abon: where. How did Aniak Isliind bear at tin; time you wei'e seized? A. — Tletween east and east and north- east. Q. — .\nd about what distance? A. — IS or 20 miles. {]. — Uan you give me the latitude and longirude? \. — I li.ive nothing on tlii.-i iiia|) to measure it with; it i.s about latitude ft'>. {}. — Was Amak Island the nearest land? A. — Ves, sir. 10 20 30 40 50 6o .Sly (UumIhvc JliiiiHcii— Hcdircci— DiKcuNHion.) Q. — And .vou ciiiiiutl (ln;in'»' it out willioiil your dividt'iM? A.— Xo. Q. — You wtTf casf, nortlii'iisl, iiiid iiboiil IS niilcH diHtiiiit? A.— Yt'H. ii- — Wiis if cUiir wcjitlH'r when vou wcic m-izcd? A. — Yes. tir. Q. — Could you iHliiiilly see land when you \vcri> seized? A. — YcH, sir. (i. — So that you htwv no doubt about your poHiliou? A. — I was insid(> of iliat; I was not clostT to tlu' sliorc than 18 niilcH. Q. — At the tinu' you w( rt> sci/.cd <(iuld you actually see any other land? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — One was llic \'ol]»lv allege that she was seized in the Behrint? Sea. Mr. Peters: — We did not think it was necessary to say further. The rommissioner on the pai-t of the United States: — The Modus Vivendi distin>tly i»rovided that if the vessel was seiz- ed inside the jurisdictional waters of the Ignited States, slie should be taken to tli • Ignited States courts. Mr. Peters: — She i-< to be handed over to British authority The rommissioner on the part of the United States: — No; if she was seized outside of jurisdicCniiiil waters of the T'nit- cd States she was handed over to liitish aulhorities. ^Fr. Peters: — 1 will read what the siatement of claim does say. ' The rommissioner on the part of the (hiited States:— It simply says "llicfjally seized."' Mr. Peters: — 1 hav,' here the statement of the T'nit«'d States authorities settiu}; down exactly where the vessel was seized. I do not think any techni<'al objection should be raised. Mr. Dickinsoi.: — We do not raise any (]neslion of leclinical pleadiufjs afxainsl mv learned fri«'nd. The Uomniissioner on (he i)art of the United States: — I snjtpose not, but the Uommiisioners miplit. or the Umjtire mi^ht; in every other case we have ;,'ot meutioued the pre- cise place of s"izHre. Mr. Peters: — I may mention liiat we could not put the pre- cise place of si'izure in our Slatement of Uiaim because, at the time I drew (he Statement of Ulaim, I had not a r«'cord of the proceed! Uijs, nor any informatieu wliatever liefore me. The Commissioner on the jtart of the United States: — I merely called ycnir attention to it. Mr. Peters: — -\s a matter of fact 1 ajiplied, long ago, throufth the proper authorities, to obtain the corresjx'ndeuce and tile statement of the lof-s of the .\merican shi]is with re- gard to tliis very matter. I did not get that corresi)ondenco until a short time ago — long after our pleadings were drawn II- i I i. i i Iff* li!h; imP'I'Ii !!!:::■!:, ill! ' lO 20 30 AO 50 60 820 (duHlavi' HauHiMi — Kv eniHM.) — iind. tluTcfons with ropird to th« rune of th« Winifred, wo were to a jjrcat extent, almohit«'ly in ignorance of the faetn — tliat iH the exact nature of the factB — we prnetienlly drew our Htatement of Chilni in the darli. The Commissioner on thi? part of the United States: — I merely asljed you for your own consideration, whether the petition should not contain a statement of where the vessel wnR seized. You can proceed with the examination so far as I am concerned. Mr. Peters: — The Winifred was driven Into Behrlng Hea by stress of weather, and on 27th J)ily slie was illef;ally seized, and her officer and crew illegally arrested. That Is what is stated in the pleading;; that states, so far as 'Jreat Britain is concerned, that the seizure was llle(;al — it could not have been illeprnl if she had been caught catching seals within the three mile limit. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — When you speak of miles, do yon mean nautical or statute miles? .\. — Nautical miles. Q. — 1 asked you on cross-examinatnon wluit the bearings were that you took on bringing up near Amak Island, and yea said you did not remember. Do yon renu-mbor now? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — You remember now that you did take bearings? A. — I did take bearings. Q. — And you look your disctances? A. — Yes. Q. — You remember that now distinctly? A. — I had to put down my position every night. Q. — You saw with vour naked ev«' all this land? A. — Yes. Q. — Now I want to ask something about Tonki Bay. Why did yon tell Mr. Peters that yon did not remember you took anything off another ship there, and then he had to ask you again If you did not get provisions?. A. — That is a thing I never told before I was asked. Q. — You never mentioned it before? A. — No. Q. — Now, 1 want to ask you a question or two about these little courtesies that passed between you. Do you remem- ber the names of the ships that were in that bav? A. — The "Brenda," the "Libbe," the "Annie 0. Moore," the "Sea Lion." the "Umbrina," the 'Carmelite," the "Venture," the "Kate," the "Favourite." the "Maud S.," I think the "Walter Earle," and the "Arities" — that is about all I remember. Q. — Now you had •\ present of a sack of potatoes you have to.- us? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Who gave you the corned beef? A. — Thomas Owens, the Captain of the "Venture." Q. — Have you told ns all you got? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you yet any salt. Sealing salt? A. — I do not re- member. Q. — Let me refresh your memory. Did you get any salt from the "Venture?" A. — 1 do not remember that. Q. — Did vou get any coal from the "Venture?" A.^Coal! No. Q. — You got no coal? A. — No. Q._Did yon not get 20 bags of salt from the "Venture?" A.— 20 bags of salt? Q. — Yes. A. — No, that would have been pretty near a load for the schooner. Q. — Or it would be a pretty big load even for a 13-tonner, wouldn't it? And you did not get any salt? .\. — No, sir, not to my recollection. I do not remember, S21 (fliiMtnvc MjiiiHt'ii— He I riiHs. A. I{(|»|)i'ii— Diroct.) (j.— V(Mi would iciiH'iiibt'i- if you liuil got m much um 10 HUckH of milt? A. — Oh, yes. Q.— Did you not gut 1(» sttckH of suit from the "Ventuiu?" A.— No. Q.— Will you BWCHi- to that poHitivcly? A.— I dou't thiuk 1 got Huy. (i.— Will you Hwi'ur that you did not got 10 siickH of salt iu lO that harbour from one of those British shlim? A.— I do not remember getting any salt at all there. Q.— Will you Hwear that you did not get it? A.— I can- not, it is quite a long time ago. Q- — VVill yon swear that you did not get a quantity of coal? A. — I do not remember getting any coal. Q.— ^Vill you swear that you did not? A.— Well, that would have been more likely for me to get that salt. Q.— W\'ll did you get it? A.— 1 do not thiuk I did. Q.— Did you get anything from the "Favourite?"' A.— 20 No, sir. Q. — These shi]»s were all in there, and they were all sealing ships? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — On the way home? A. — No, sir. Q. — They were about to sail for home, were they not? A. — No, sir. Q. — The "Kate" was going? A. — I do not know the rea- son why she did go liom< ; they probably all were warned not to go into the Behrlng Sea. Ci. — So far as you spoke to the ships in that harbour they were going sourh? A. — No, I think some of them went to the Copper Islands. Q. — Did you ever see any of them sealing after that? A. 1 do not remember. Q. — But the "Kate" was the same owner as yours, and fit- ted out about the same time as yon did? A. — Yes, but she was on the AVest Coast before I left here. Q. — And she was on her way home? A. — She went home. 30 j|;| 11 iT4l|| 40 The witness was not further examined. SO Co Alexander Reppen was recalled, December 21, 1806, by (}reat Britain, by consent out of order, relative to the "Path- Hnder." of IH'.tO. Claim No. 21. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Mr. Reppen, T think you were examined here before? A. — Yes, sir. (.1. — You were mate on the "Pathtinder" in 1890, were you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In that year did you meet with an accident? A. — Yes, we carried away our keel. Q. — When was that? A. — In the month of March. Q. — Where wereyou at the time? A. — We were up to the southward of Cape Flattery. Q. — You were to the southward of Cape Flattery when thv^ accident happened? Did you put into any port? A. — We put into Neah Bay. Q. — What did yon go there for? A. — For to re]>iiir. Q. — Did you pet the repairs done? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — After yon had the repairs done did anything hajtpen? A, — We were i-eady to go away next morning when tlic re- ill'; i! i'l ' TA- It j', '■ \m\: 822 (A. Ucppt'ii — Dirccl.) vt'iuu' cut tor "Corwiu" ciiiiie along in tlu' ovouing and svued lis in tlu- inui'iiing. (^._\Vhal was the next thing tliat llu' re cnm- cutli'i- did? A. — An olliror tanu' on board (i. — Was it in the at'lcrnoon or in (lie uiornin;; .' A. — Kariy in (lie morning. ii. — Were ,voii on dock when tlie seizure too]< plaie? A. — ,0 Yes, sir. Q. — Just as hriellv as ,vou can tell us, what was said and done by the ollicers? A. — The ollicer went to the cabin !o examine the papers and lie came on deck and the captain came on deck and told me tliat the,v liad seized us Q. — Vour own captain? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Told you the ollicei' had seized you? A. — Ves, sir. (i.--Well, go on. .\. — The ollicer from the "Corwin" went: on board the cutter and sent a crew of men with a tow line on board, made fast to us and lowed us to Port Townsend. 20 (2. — Was thei-e any couversat iipii that you lieard taki' place — were there any ordei's or instructions given that you iicai'il .-iboul heaving youi- aiichor, or anything of that kind? .\. — ■ Th(( same ollicer canm on board again and lold us to heave our anchor and we wt ic bound for I'orl: Townsend. Q. — Was there any answer? .\. — .\uswer to that? I went and told the men to lu>ave up the anchor. Q. — Did you dt» that at once, or was there any anstvid he tell you the reason why \ou were seK'.ed. .\. — No. nothing. ,)._„You were tak..n where? A.-I'orl low 4.- How far was that from Neah P.ay. ab.mt <'>o 7*1 miles. 1 •> V ' (>- ll.iw long were y(.u gom,; llU're. .\- from N.'ah Hay at fi o'-lock in the moru.ng, and <•: \ _l'(irl Townsend. A. (>(> or \. -W,' started une (o I'ort Towr.seu.l alMUit I'J ..'.lock in the f.;';"";"'; „,,,^^,„^,,,„, ,,,, (, What hai.i.ened: after yii w<'re released? A. — Yes, sir. 20 (^. — .\'«'. you went about your business, did you? A. — \Ve went to Vicl^)ria. ii. — Strai}{lil? A.^Sailed into Nictoria. Q. — What had yon been doinj;; before that? A.— We was lyin!; there waitinjr. (i. — 111 what \oy,|H;c well you en);aj;ed? A. — We \M're eii jia^ed in a sea'.in;; 11 in. t^. — What nnnilier of boats had you? A. — We iiad livi' boats and a stern boat. Q.— White men? A.— White men. 3° t^. — Was, or was not the <;rouiiil about Xeali Hay a suit- able ground for seal tishiii};: al tliat time of the year? A. — Yes sir. (i. — When you were taken to I'ort Townsend, that was some sixty miles away, was it not? A. — ^'es, sir. ii. — Was thai in llie course of seals or mil? ,\. — No, it was away oiil of seals. Q. — Ho y(Mi were taken otf the sealing };rouiid? A. — Yes. sir. (J. — Ifow far from the sealing ;;roiiiul was Xeah Hay, where yon were anchored? A. — Oh. about l!ll miles. (■i. — What was your intention jibcuil that time, y.mrself and the captain's, if you hail not been interfered with? .\. — We were read\' for lo start to sea a^aiii, we liad repaired onr tiller. (.i. — ^Yhal were you jiDiii}; to do when yon };-ol to sea? A. — \\'ell, we were jt'dinj; lo lower boats as snon as we j^ot out- side of ("ape Flattery The (Commissioner on Ih' part of the I'liited Stales: Were Ton on a sealiii;:' voyage? Witness: — Yes, sir. The ('(unmissioiier on the part of the rnited States:-- Simply went in there lo make rejiairs? Witness: — ^'es. sir. (i.— You intended to .se.il a;;aiii. did yon, if you had not ^'O been interel'ered with? A. — Yes. sir. {}. -.\nd when yon went lo I'ort Townsend you were taken olf the sealing urouml? .\. — N'es. sir. ii. — Then insti.-id of sealin;; any more you went lo \'ic 'oria? A. — Yes, sir. (2.- That is all that took jilace; the whole story? A.— ^■(•s, the whole slory. 40 ^o Cross examimil i(. II b\ Mr. Warren: Itllll. 824 (A. I{(']»|itii— Cniss.) Q. — When ( id you next k-avf Vicioria aftor liciiij;; in Port Townsend? V. — I k'ft Victoria a week after. Q. — For V iiat trip? A. — Started out waling again. Q. — A n /rtlieni trij)? A. — Ves, sir. i^. — Did you ^o to Uelirinj? Sea? A. — Yes, sir. ii. — Yoa were in Victoria outfit tinjj;, in tlu- meantime, I supijos' .'' A. — No. we lia our outfit. Q —You liad your outfit for Heiiring Sea over in Nealv ]{-.y? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — Did not need anytliing t(t fro hiwk to Victoria for? A. — No, wo liiid our outfit for the coast, but not for Beliring Sea. Q. — Tlu'U before you went to Ueliring Sea you liad to come l»aclv to ^■ictoria? A. — \o. we look our oultil on (tie west coast. Q. — ^You would not liave jjone apain into N'ictoria at all A. — No. sir. 20 (i- — l>id you outfit wliiie in Victrary repair? .\. — Well, we considered tiiat it wid she help yon repair the ru1d< A.-N( liad aliiadv i'nished then. Q.— When the "Vica" cam;' Vdu had it alre.idv finished? 60 Q. — Y(ni say you were going to leave the sanu' day that the 'T'orwiii" took you? .\. — Yes, sir. Q.— What time of day did the "Corwin" take y that. Q._.Yon were in Port Townsend one day? A.— Tin (V.n we cann and the other day. Q.— Yon were in Pert Townsi'ud two days? A.— Yes. sir. Q.—TTow long would it have taken yon to have got back to \eah V.:\\ or Taiie Flattery from Tort Townsend? A. — It all diitends uptain told me so. Q — When did you jjet these orders? A. — I don't know. I never asked him. (i- — How lonj; did you say it took you to come to Victoria? A. — I think it was about ten hours. (J.— What was the distance? A.— About 40 miles. (2. — What did you couw to Victoria for? A. — I don't 20 know. Q. — Yon wi'nt otit ajj;ain as soon .-is — A. — I say we laid here about a week. Q. — Put a new ruddei' in? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That was part of your business? A. — Part. yes. Q. — Did you do anythinfj else there; did you take any snp- jdies? A. — None. Q. — And haviuf; done that you started on yoiir norlliern tri])? A. — Wo started on our coast trip. Q.— rp north? A.— Fp north. Q. — Followed up the coast and then went into Rehrint; Sea? A. — We went into the west coast and ffot siii»i>lies for l{ebrin>r Sea. Mr. Warren : — T want to know whether he };ot a new rud- der or a new tiller He said it both ways. Witness: — Xew tillor. 30 40 Ommissioners under the Convention of February 8, 1896, Between Oreat Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 24, 1896. At lO.f^O a.m. the Commissioners took their seals. Mr. Peters; — i understand Unit my learned friend on the other side has not yet comiileled liis rebuttal <'vidence in ilie 5° "('arolena" cas", and that he still reserves the ri),'ht to call further evidence. Mr. Dickinson: — Not to exceed two witnesses, .nnd they will be very bi-ief. Mr. I'efei's:— Of ("ourse our rebuttal case in answer to that will have to be calh'd. 'I'liere is one witness, Mr. Sprini;, whom we desir<' lo call lo explain some entries referrd to by Mr. Lau^hlin .M( I.(»an. these etilries having: been made in the Oo handwritiuft of Mr. Sprin-j; in a book produced by Mr. .Mc- Lean; but we Clin do ilial later, and meanwhile that will not jM'event us {foinn ou with the case of I lie "Thornton." .^^r. Dickinson; — I desire to call the ("ommissioners" allen- tion to the fad that when my leni'iienylhin>; but the "("arolena" projiei-. The lestimony of a larp' number of witnesses lias been ri'ad inio ihe "("arolena"' 827 lO 20 30 40 50 ')0 (Discussion.) Ciist', for (•()iivf'iii, out of order, and Ji8 to those witnesses of course we have t^ir reply. Mr. Peters: — That is thoronghly understood. Sir (J. II. Tiijiper:— If tlie (Joimiii.ssioners please, 1 will brielly open Hit- cast; of the "Thornton." Wo far as the is- sues fio, there is not niucli dilTerenee. if any, between this rase and liie ease that has been undi-r the consideration of the Court. A Kre;i( ;leal of (lie evidence t.iken in (he case of the ••Carolena" is apjlicable wide at the pi'esent momei!( ; and 1 may (ake occasion here to say to the Court that the evidence as to the value of the vessel, in view of the evidence alre.idy taken, cannot be very lonp. Vet there are one or two im[iortant witnesses, in addition to those we projtose to call (o-day, whos.' at(endance we could Tnive comjtdled and would h.ive conipelled here, but we took the liberty of IVeliiijr satisfied tliat our action would meet with (he apju'oval of the Coinniissioi>ers under the circum- stances, in exc'Misins' (lie attendance 'tf one or two of them because of (he s]ieci,il, impoi'iant and urgent business upon which (hey are enfia^ed (o d.iy and will be enfiacred tomor- row, notwidislandintr i( is Chrisdnas Day, in {rettinp: a ship of some size off (he slips in a shi|)yard. The j)roprietor of (he shipyard wailed upon us and explained the j;reat loss thaf would be occasuuied ])v the attendance of these men here to-day; that he dl'sired to kee)* (h(>m at work both In- day ami (o morrow, and (hi( as soon as this ship was off they would be free. 1 do no( know (hit it is necessary to point out anythiufi more than llu' similar claims of the "Thornton" to those of the "<"arolena." There is the usual claim for the impriN(m- meiK of (he misier :ind mate at Sitka, and (he other claims iire all similar in respect. The defence follows the same lines, and. anion;; otln r tluiifrs. after iniltiii}; ns (o the ])roof ef I lie main facts of ihe case, raises ilie (piestion of owner- ship, and Ihe r.'ply of the British ( loveninu'nl is I0 Ihe same e(Tec( as in (he preeediii;; t ase. se liial IIk' pleadings are (uactically the sinne. I do not know, haviiii; heard (he other issues sofiilly read, thai (he Coiir( will desice any further reference to lliose issues w lo the |)leadint;s in tin case. T (diserve notliin<; siu-cial; in fact, it is almost a cojiy of (lie (idler pleadintis. Mefore (foiuK en with die exaniinalieii. 1 wtnild like to stale dial we have formally asked our learn 'd friends o]i])osile (o jiroduce for inspei.'on (he iineiitery of Ihe "Thoi'iitoii." i.iken after sei'.ur*', and also a li.st. or inventory, of provis ions Iransferred aft"r the seizure of the '•Thornton"' to (he steamer "SI I'aiir" ir au\ other vessel. I would be obli;>ed If iii\ learned IVIeiid woiild jiive me his forma' ;i;>ly. I m- TTT i ■ ■ 5 828 i;:!ii •ili'ir 10 20 30 (■T)isenHHi«n.) Mr. DickiiiHon : — hi formal roply, we furiiislu'd you some (lays since witli a copy of the iuvenfoi v taken by the officers of the revenue cutt<'r. As to the inventory of goods re- moved to the "St. Paul," we never have had an inventory, and did not know of such removal of goods until we heard It in the "Carolena" case, if any goods wert' removed. Our position will bi*, as to that, that if any goods were removed to the "St. Paul," they had previously been inventoried. Sir C. H. Tupper: — I understand my learned friend says that he will produce it if it exists? Mr. Dickinson; — If there is an inventory, yes. We have already telegrai>hed on the subject. We have our telegrams, but I do not think you would like them. We, of course, do not admit that you have shown there is any so far. Sir ('. H. Tupper: — I would like to ask the Commissioners, before proceeding with this evidence, in view of what hapiH'ned in the previous case, whether it would not be wise to exhaust these' witnesses as to values as to all the ships tluit are in issue; that is to siiy, for instance, instead of Mr. ("ook's step- ping down after he has spoken of the "Thornton." he t.> give his knowledge of the other shijjs, as to which ?ie will be called, thus getting rid of all this class of testimony. I do not think there is any object in having those winiesse.H ap- pear and re-appear. Mr. DiclTinson: — Not at all. All we would like is to get some intimation of such purpose, so we can prepare for cross- examination. Any plan adopted to save timt^ will uieet with our instant concurrence. Sir r.H. Tupper: — The only purpose of these witnesses as to value wonld be simply to examine them --Mr Cook, for instance — relative to the "Thornton," the "Ouv/ard," the "An- na Beck" — 40 Mr. Dickinson: — We are not prepared to incpiire as to the "Anna Heck" and those others. If it be announced, and it meets with the approval of the Commissioners, we certainly do not object to taking out of its ordei; the testimony of other witnesses here us to the value of all the ships in controversy. Then we will j)repare accordingly and be ready at the next sitting as to all tlie shi])s, but we are not prepared to cross- examine any witnes,ses this morning as to anything except the "Thornton." However, I see no objection to putting it 50 in and letting iiim come back for cntss-examination if we re- quire him. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the T'uited States: — What right have we to assume that the counsel are at issue about the value of all these shii)9? Mr. Dickinson: — We are decididly at Issue, may it please your Honour. gQ The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States:— -About th^ value of all of tlieni? Mr. Dickinson — Yes, your Honour, on this record the value of all of them, substantially and radically. The ConinilssiuHcr on the part of the T'nited States; — T think- it would lie more convenient for counsel to juit in tirst tlie pajiefH of tliis M-ssel, s(v that Wi- ni'iy see what she is be- lore taking the evidence as to the \;iliie. 8j<; (H. ,]. Cook— Dirett.) Mr. Dickinson: — To sliorten time, tlic counsel for Great Brituin and ourselves agree on the following admissions: The "TTiornton" was built at Dungeuess, in the United States, in 1861. She was first registered as a British vessel at Victoria in 1804, with a registered tonnage of 29.36. 10 40 Hubert John Cook was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Sir O. H. Tupper: Q. — Were you examined in the "Carolena" case? A. — No. 20 Q. — You live on Catherine street, Victoria West, in the city of Victoria, Mr. Cook? A. — Yes, sir. (i. — You have lived here for 34 years, I believe? A. — 34 years. Q. — You are ^i shij) carpenter? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And have been ever since you came into the country? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What shljiyard? A. — I had the shipyard that Turpel has now for 16 years. Q. — I believe you built a pretty large ship there? A. — 30 Well, I built a steamboat there at one time. H. — You built sloops as well? A. — Yea, sir. Q. — Do you know the steam schooner "Thornton?" A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you know her, rather? A. — Yea, sir. y.— When di'l you first know her? A.— I think 1873 is the first I knew of her. I knew her before that. Q. — That was wh'n she was a sloop? A. — Tliat was when she was a sloop. Q. — Had you anything to do with the schooner in 1887? \. — Yes, sir. Q.— What had you to do? A.— I rebuilt her. (1.— For whom? A.— Captain Warren. Q. — In your sliipy >rd? A. — Yes, dir. Q. — Tell the Conimissioners. if you please, what work you did at that time, the cliaracter of tlie work, on this vessel. Q. — In the flrHt place, me and Captain Warren i)ut a new deck and deck frain;' in, and then stiipited off all the old plank and i>ut a new frame between each of the frames th; t :;o was in then. o!-. account of their being too far apart. Q._Taking our the old ones? A.— No. leaving the original frame; the original frame is a splendid frame; white oak; put in a new frann' l)etween eacli of them. Q.— What did you re-plank it with? A.— I hardly recol- lect whether it was two and a ijuarter or two and a half planking. Q._What kind of stuff? A.— Douglas pine. Q._What else did you do? A.— Then slie was replanked, new covering hoards', hatches, new bowsprits; well, every- 60 Idling complete. . , ., f^.—Whit did yon do widi (he stern? A.— I raised the s^tf n 16 i Inches. Q. -And completely fltit d (he ship ui»? .\.— ^ es. Q- How loi'g was i-he on (he stocks for that work? .V.— \ liidt over ( hneii uioiiOis. By the time I got through with iier thei,' was Mothing of (he original but (he stem, s(ern- ])osts. keel, c.iling and (he original framework. lef(. g.__Hhe was nractically a new ship? A,— Yes. fV, ' pr ! ! p i\]'- i i\ i^'il l||H.: I S30 (11. .1. Cook — Direct — C'loisw.^ Q. — Was shi' roveiv'd iii Hint (iiiif? A. — Vi-s, 8ir, <()i»im"1' fasteiH'd lip to llio vvater mark. id ^vou ioave .my bad wood in her? A. — Nom; wlial- over. ■ ! Q.— I suppoMi* tbat was Wfove she hud the ouyino and boiler jQ put in? A. — Yes. (i- — Wliat did voii consider lier wortli at tliat time? A. — There was ont'iei- alieration after (liat. (i.— Wliat wa.s llie other alteration? A.— I took out the stern post and liad (o i)ut in larjier. Q.— Was that in ISSl? A.— That would be in 1881. Had to put in iarfiei- stern jiost of oak, new deadwood. new rud- del' and rudder j)ost.^. Q. — For whar purpose? A. — And lengtheiu'd out the keel. Q. — For what ])urpose? A.— It was to take the shaft. 20 Q.— Make a sleeve for the shaft? A.— To receive the sleeve. Q. — When they pr(\ notliin<; of (he value of her (Mijjiiie and 50 boiler and that kind of work that was done on her? A. — No. Q. — That is the book is it that you hold in ytmr hand? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And lliat bo(!k jjives the dates when she was on your slij)? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .\nd tliaf is in your own haiidwritiuii? A. — Yes, sir. (.}. — Hy you av (lie time? A. — ,\t tlie very time. (i. — And it shows die day tlie vessel was on your sliji, and (he day she came off? A. — Yes. ^° Q. — .\iid the dates to which you have referred are in that book? A. — Yes, sir. Cross-examin.'tion by Mr. Warren: ii. — Mr. Cook, von sav voii praclicallv rebuilt tliis boat in 1877? A.— Yes," sir (i. — In wliat (ondition was she wlien you first saw lier? A. — Tfer frame was in fxood condition, but the deik frame was sroue. «3' 20 30 (II. .(. r'ook — CiosH.) Q.— WiiH litT i)liiiikinK Hoiinil? A.— Xo, hIic had l)('«'n iiHliorc a tji'i-at iiiaii.v tinier, and tlicrt- wan a meat many ttbort l>laiiks in her iKiltorn. (i.— WIk' waN in had Hhapo in 1«77 bt.'foro you repaired her? A. — \V('II, not yood. Q-— Wi>8 any of flial bad tondilion dne to old age? A.— ^^■eli, a <;reat deal of 11 was on acronnt of liei l)(? A.— No. certainly not. Q. — Yon hiiv^ jnst stated (hat when yon rebnilt her in 1877 she was wortli 7nore than when she was ori}j;inally bnilt in ISCil, and yon have also valned her at |<5.()0(). and yon have also stated that yonr bill was not ^o.OOO. Now, will yon e.\I)lain how she <(>nld be worth |i.~)(((K» under thos(> cii' old frames, and just pnt in the frames between? A. — "^'es, all the old frames were in, they were white oak. (i.— What did yon i)ut in new frames for? A. — Hecanse the others were (00 far ajtart. ii. — Did you leiifithen the "Thornton" any? A. — No. only bv the keel, when her i)ro])eller was jmt in, lengthened 1':"' keel. (i. — Yon never liMifithcned (he ship projier? A. — No. 5° Q. — Yon merely lengdiened the keel to take the propeller? A. — Yes, to take the ludder post. Q. — What was your bill in 1S77 for this one boat? A. — My bill was, I think, f!12tn and some odd dollars. That wa.s my bill ahtne. Q. — And you are cerlain that *hat was for work on the "Thornton" only? A. — That was for laboi'. Q. — Yoni- own labor? A. — Yes. Q.— Did (hat cover materials? A.— Oh. no. 60 ^i' — ''i'1 .^"a '"'.^ *'ie material? .\. — .\d. (^— Who'did? A.— ("aiitaiii A\'arr«ii. Q. — Y|!1: lO 20 (\l. .1. ('(M>k — Cl'dHH.) Q.— And wiTi" they piiid b.v .vou or by Caiitain Warren? A.— Thi-rc was u lit tit- mntnicl I liad on it. 1 paid my own men. g, — What Hort t»f a contract did you liave witli (.'aptain Wanvn, tliat you would rebuild llial boat if ho svouid furn- ish the niatoriaJH? A. — No. Q. — What waH your contract? A. — I had a contract for a part of the work; that part I cannot think of; I have lont all recordM of it; and what part of that work it was I d(»n't know. Q. — You have Htated that you practically re-built the boat. Now, do you mean to Hay that you practically rebuilt the boat or you, witli the work of other people practically re- built her? A. — I carried on the work. Q.— You did all all the work? A.— I did. Q. — AVhen you Hay you had i)art of the contract, what do you mean? A. — 1 had a small contract of Kome kind; I don't know what it was to-day. That i»art I have forgotten. Q. — Well, Mr. t'ook, your bill added to the cost of the ma- terials that went into tliat b(»at would be the cost of re-build- ing her, would it not? A.— My bill? g. — Yes, l.'JtlO and odd dollars, added to whatever the ma- terials cost Captain AYarren, would be the total cost of re- building that boat in 1877? A. — No, that waH only what I had from t'aptain Warren, my wages and the small contract. Then he paid outside i)arties. Q. — For doing what? A. — There was another man work- ing on her besides that. Q. — I have asked you that once. A. — .\nd Captain War- ren was working on lu'r himself. Q. — How huig did ('aptain Warren work (m her? A. — He heliH'd jHit in her deck frame and deck. Q. — How long did that take? A. — And WII8 hIu' Im'Iow Ww water? A. — Six ffci. (i. — h(» voii know how niiicli <-o|iiM'r it would take to coitiKT the "Thornton?" A. — Ah near as I can rt'collcct it would take 4r>(» Hliects, lu'twt'i'n that and "lOO. . lo Q.-.Vow will you naint' anv other man that worked on the "Thornton" at that time? A.— No. Q. — In addition to the total coHt of reiuiirinu; that boat there. .Mr. Cook, how niiich would voii add to make up hei' total valuatioji? .\. — I don't underHtand you, Hir. Sir ('. II. Tapper: — I confesH I do not understand — Mr. Dickinson: — Let me explain that the witness has sworn to her valuation, sworn that he did this work on her; now the question is, in addition to what he knows went into hf." 10 in the way of time and labor and material, how much does he add to nnike up this valuation that he ^ives? A. — I would add about Ifl.')') years apo. Q. — And yon renu'uiber the amount of money that was paid 40 you 20 years a«o by Cajitain Warren? A. — I can; I have only one entry that 1 am aware of. Q. — And you can give mo the details of the varitms things that vou put into that ship? A. — I have one entry left of the "Thornton." Q. — Have you gi»t that with you? .\. — No, I have not. Q._\Vhat"is that entry about? A.— Tliat is money I re- ceivt'd from rajitain Warren. Q.—That is this price that you have given? A. — l,24tl and 8(»me odd dollars, T don't know exactly. 5c Q. — You have not any book giving the details of the planka you i»ut in there and exactly what you did t(» the boat? A. — No, I haven't. Q._Or how much the cop]»er cost? A.— The jiriee of cop- l>er about that tinu' Q. — Wail a minute — The Commissioner on tlie i)art of the I'nited States:— He has said distinctly twice that he luis no menu)randum book except this one to which he last refers. 60 Q.— Now. Mr. Cook, the total cost of rei»airing this vessel .n 1S77 as estimated by you is !?:{,r)0(), is it? A.— Yes. Q. — Where did you get those figures from? A.— I could figure it up to-day. Q. — Did you figure it up before you took the witness stand? A. — I looked it up last niglit. Q.— Looked it up where? .\.— To flio lest of my recollec- tion. 53 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ■» IK 12.2 lU u 140 IL25 HI 1.4 my I 1.6 ^ v ^. ri>- c\ \ v\ Sciences Corporation 23 WBT MAIN STHIT WIBSTIR,N.Y. UStO (71«) •73-4303 '^ ^ 834 '4r ' '' I I ^H. J. Cook— CroM.) * Q. — Where did you look It up? A. — Because I knew the prices of thingH Q. — What do j'ou mean by looking it up, that yon thought about, or that you looked at something? A.— What she cost? Q. — What did you look at? A.— I looked at nothing. Q. — Did you not look at an affidavit or a statement that lO Captain Warren made once? A. — No, I had none. Q. — Did you ever see it? A. — No. Q. — You have talked with Captain Warren about this, have you not? A. — No. Q.— Is that so? A.— That is bo. Q. — You have been in the court room every day since this session commenced? A. — I have. Q. — And Captain Warren has been here some pa i of the time? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And you have seen him outside of the court room? A. 20 I gpoke to him once about the spars, outside here, and that is the only thing I ever spoke to Captain Warren about; as for anything else, I know nothing. Q. — How much did the "Thornton" depreciate in value from 1877 to 1881? A.— Very little. Q. — Would not depreciate at all, would she. Mr. Cook? A. — I wouldn't say there was flOO difference in her. She was a vessel well kept. Q. — You have lived in Victoria for a great many years? A. — Thirty or forty years. Q. — And Captain Wiirren has lised here for a great many years? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And you have seen him often, I suppose, in recent years? A. — I have not seen Captain Warren to have any conversation very much, not since the "Thornton" left here it 1886. Q.— Talked with him before 1886, did you, about it? A.— Oh, yes. Q.— Ivots of times? A.— Yes. Q. — But since the year she was seixed and this claim arose, you never talked with him? A.— 1886, no. 1881, no. The time the "Annie Be<'k," I was on her. I don't know when that was; before 1880, anyway. (Refers to memoranda). Not since 1884. Q. — When you place Ihis value on the cost of rebuilding the "Thornton" in 1877, I suppose yon must place a value on the services that Captain Warren contributed, do you not? 50 The Commissioner on the part of the Fnited States: — Mr, Warren, I do not understand that he has placed a value on the estimated cost of re-building the vessel in 1877. Mr. Warren:— He has estimated 13,500; he told me he ad- ded f 1,500 to the cost of repairing to make a cost of |5,000. Mr. Dickinson : — May it please the court, we want to be ex- tremely brief with this witness, but we have our own full knowledge of the case, and are pursuing the strict lines of cross-examination. 30 40 60 The Commissioner on the part of the United States:- 1 do not understand, nevertheless, that this witness says he has made an estimate of the cost of repairing that vessel in 1877. It is a matter of subtraction made by Mr. Warren in his own mind. Mr. Dickinson :— He has already so testified. We submit th9t we have the right to pursue the cross-examinfttloQ 835 30 (H. J. Cook— Grow.) briefly, on our own resiKtnMibility, nnd w<> think wp arc doing 80 in good faith. The rominiBsioner on the part of tlie I'uited 8t«te8: — I would like to have you ask him, if you please, whether he made the estimate or not. Mr. Warren (to witneMs): — Q.— Mr. Cook, did yon estimate lO the cost of repairing the "Thornton" in the year 1877 at $3,- 500? . A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Now. I will renew the question which I asked you be- fore. In making the estimate of the cost of reimiring ihe "Thornton" in 1877, you must have placed a valuation upon the senices that Captain Warren contributed, is that so? A.— No. I did not. Q. — Yon did not include those services? A. — I did not put in his services at all. Q. — You put in the sen-ices of everyone else? A. — As ^^ making up the whole estimation? Q.— Yes. A.— Yes. Q. — You put in the services of every one in this 93,500 ex- cepting those of Captain Wnrren? A. — I didn't put in Cap- tain Warren's at all. Q. — How did yon know how much Captain Warren paid the other men? A. — I know by the rule of wages. Q. — Were you paid by the nile of wages? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — How much were you paid a day? A. — $5. Q. — What is this little contract that you spoke of having? i. — Well, that I can't tell you. I have no record of it; 1 don't know what the contract was. Q.— Was it in writing? A.— 1 think not. Q.— You have not got it, if it was? A.— No, I don't think there was any writing about it; we wasn't so paricular about it in them days. Q. — You do not know whot condition the "Thornton" was iu in 1880 actually, do you, Mr. Cook, when she went into Behring Sea? A. — I don't think she was any worse; I was 40 aboard of her. Q. — Aboard of her where? A. — I boarded her along side of the wharf, and I hauled her out one time. Q. — What yeor were you aboard of her that you are speaking of? A. — 1 think it must have been in 1884. Q.— I a'l talking about the year 1880. A.— I don't think I was aboard iif her. ().— Were you nlioard of her at all after 1884? A.— I don't think It. Q — When yon place a valuation npon a boat, you are ni>t talking about murket vnlut, are you, you are talking nb<')ui the cost? A.— I am not ti'.ll,ing about the market vi'uc. Q.— You are talking alu.ui the cost of building a now nhip of her kind? A. — Y« s. Q. — And did you mean to place her value in 1881 at 95000? A.— She would be worth 95,500 at that time. Q.— In 1881? A.— Yes. Q.— Where did she get that extra 9WM) from? .\.— Put In stern-posts. Q.— That was after you did the work in 1881? A.— Yes. Q.— You did 9600 more work on her in 1881? A.— Yes. Q. — I>o I understand that 9«>.S**0 added to whatever her material cost in 1881 is your idea of the value of the "Thorn- ton? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — That mctus it would take that much more money to build a new Im.it of Iter sixe? .\. — To build a boat 1 id fit ber out as she was. 50 60 m i 1 ■' ;. - » r' ■ t ' t ■1 !', ■ *^ \ t f i:ni\ 10 836 (H. J. CtMik— CrimH— KtMllml. Wullfi- Wulkor— Direct.) Q. — And vou are not placing n valuation upon the "Thorn- ton" at all lmH(*d u|>on what she would bring at a Dale? A. — 1 am baaing it at what the "Thornton" cost. Q. — Were you {Niid for all your Bervicen that j'ou ever per- formed for Captain Warr««n? A. — YeH, sir. Q. — I>o<>fl he owe you anything? A. — He doen not. Q. — What are you doing now, Mr. Cook? A. — I work for Mr. Turitel Bonietinies. Re-direct examination by Sir C. H. Tapper: Q. — You said yon had atteiideJ this court? A. — Yes, sir. Q'. — You attended under subpoena, did you not? A. — I did. Q.— With reference to this bill of (lt,240 for labor, does that include your slip charges as well? A. — No, sir. Q. — The slip clinrses were in addition? A. — The slip charges were in addition. 20 Q. — Then this book that yon were asked about, containing the entrj' of the money jmid to j'ou on this account, is that the book that you gave to Mr. Bodwell and myself? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And that we have? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You have no objection to that being produced? A. — Not at all, sir. Q. — Now, yon were asked with reference to whi'ther you had discussed thTs matter with Captain Wairen. .\s a mat- ter of fact yon 'have discussed it with Mr. Bo«lwell and my- 3° self, have you not? A.— That is all. Q'. — On several occasions? A. — Mr. Ilodwell, yon anti Mr. Peters. Q. — And Captain Warren did not happen to be there? A. — No, sir, I have never sw»n Captain Warren to speak to him at all. "I*! liil;' 40 Walter Walker was called as a witness on the part of (Jreat Britain. It was announced by the <'ommis8ioners that the oath ad- ministered to a witness covers his testimony with n»fen>nce to any and all claims iM'nding before the CommiHsioners. Sir C. H. Tupper: — We pro|K)se to transfer all the prelimi- nary evidence of this witness in the "Carolena" case to this JO case, as to ship's prices, and so on. Direct examination by Bir C. H. Tupper: y.— You knew this ship the "Thornton?" A.— Yes. Q. — You had to do with her in connei-tion with some re- pairs, had you not? A. — No, I didn't. ing overhauled? A. — Oh, yes. (j. — Was this ship yard wher«> she was known as Turiiel's ship yard? A. — It is now known as Tiir|K>rs. Q. — And how near was that to your own ship yard? A. — Oh, within, I sup|>ose, about n(N) yards. Ci. — The yani (tpposite to yonm? A. — It is farther down the bay. Q. — In the vicinity of yours? A. — Yes. (i. — Do you renienibi-r what was lH>ing done to the "Thorn- ton?" .\. — Yes. I was in then' while Cook was doing those re|Hiirs. and he put in extra frames, took off all the planking. 6u 837 lo (WuHor WhIImm-— Dii-vct— (Vum.) Q.— Do you reiiieiiib«>r the time when she was titted up with auxiliarjr Rteaiii power? A.— Ye». Q.— That wn8 the game place? A.— Hauic place, Q- — You knew the nature of the worlt which was being done? A. — Yea. Q.— You heard Mr. (Joolt — — ? A.— I heard Mr. Cook de- ■cribe it. Q.— You are familiar with the work on that occaaion? A. — Yes. It would be altogether necessary, what he said. Q. — What sort of a schooner was she when this worlc was done, was she well built? A.— In 1881? Q.— Yes. A. — Yes. she was in good order then. Q. — You saw her with the machinery in complete? A. — Yes. I have been aboard of her often; she carried one or two small loads of coal for me. Q.— You knew her in 1886? A.— I knew her in 1886. Q. — What did she carry, what weigbt? A. — Well, I have 2o had lA. tons on her? Q. — Tx)ng tons? A. — iMOg tons. Q. — You have had that in her? A. — Yes. Q.— You knew her in 1886? A.— Yes. Q. — Can you not put a value upon that vessel in 1886 as you knew her? A. — Well, I considered she was worth ma- chinery and all about $6,000. Q. — You knew who built the machinery for her? A. — Yes, I knew the man. Thomas Oowen. Q.— I believe he is dead, is he not? A.— The last I heard 30 of him he was in Reattle. Q._Whnt condition wn» the "Thornton" in in 1886? A.— Bhe was in good condition. ; J. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Mr. Dickin.4(>n: — My learned friend, Hir Ciiarles, having transferred the direct-exiimination of this witness from tlie "Carolena" case to that of the "Thornton," so far as it is applicable. I now tninNfer the ci-oMM-exiiniination of this wit- '^^ nesB in the "(,'nn»lena" case to tliat of (lie "Tliornton," with the exception of tliat part of the croHs-exaniination relative to the details of the "(^arolena." Q. — What did you have to do with tlie "Thornton" yourself? A. — Nothing, except going aboard of lier. Q. — What did you go aboard of lier for? A. — t)li, I went aboard of every schooner in the liarbor tliat was being re- paired. 50 Q.— What for? A. — To see what work was going on. Q, — Did you have any ofticial duties? A. — Not then. Q. — How long is it since you have had ofllcial duties to {U'r- form? A.— April, 1884. Q. — And did you go alxmrd the "Thornton" in purHuance of your official duties at that time? A. — No, sir. Q. — When you did go aboard yon had nothing more than a casual un«)fflcial interest in going aboard? A. — Well, from 1884 to 1886 I was supposed to see that schooners Jind their names written on the bow and stern, and the draught of °° water, and I always intended to look out for that. Q. — I understood you a moment ago to say thnt you did not go on the "Thornton" after 1884? A.— I "have been aboard of her, but not ofllcinlly. Q. — And you do not go aboard of her officially ever, did you then? A.— No, sir. Q.— Then, when you did go aboard of her, you went out of, casual curiosity, did you not? A.— Well, yes. I I ; I 838 I 1 (Walter Walker— Crow.) Q. — Did yoa have any friends aboard of lier? A. — Being acquainted with the buBiness, I am always taking an inter- est. Q.— That is the shipbuilding business? A.— Yes. Q. — You took a caiiual interest as a shipbuilder in her? A. —Yes. Q. — Did you examine her? A. — Yes. 10 Q- — Did you go into her hold and look at her timbers, and examine her as you would on an oflteial inspection? A. — No; I saw her on the ways when she was having that work done. Q. — Did you go into her hold? A. — I didn't go aboard of her in the hold in an official capacity. Q. — Did you examine her rigging? A. — No, sir. Q. — Any of her gear? k. — No, sir. Q.— Kxnmiue her hull" A.— Well, I looked it over, 1 didn't examine it. Q. — For what purpose A. — As I had with any schooner 20 in the harbor. Q. — When was you last aboard of her? A. — Well, I couldn't say the exact date. Q. — Can you tell within ten years? A. — Oh, yes, I believe ■he had coal for me in 1884, and I believe I was aboard of her in 1886 when she went out — before she went out in 1886. Q. — You did not go up the shore in her, did you? A. — No, sir. Q.— What did you go aboard of her in 1886 for? A.— T am ,Q not positive. ^ Q.— Did you go aboard of her in 1884? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — Positive, are you? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — For what purpose? A. — I had coal in her, to the best of my knowledge. She carried coal for me in 1884. Q. — That is when you carried coal that you have spoken of? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Where were j-ou carrying coal to? A. — From Na- naimo to Victoria. Q. — Was it your cargo? A. — My cargo. 40 Q. — Did you go down in her or go up in her? A. — No, sir. Q. — And yon went aboard to Hee about your coal? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What was your business, then? A.— 1 was beginning to handle coal, and sometimes had work on the outside. Q- — You had a coal yard, did you? A. — Yes, I had a coal .yard. Q.— And have had it how long? A.— Since 1883. Q. — So that your businens was principally dealing in coal tln*n? A.— Partly. 5° y.— Was it principally? A.— In the summer time I went out ard built some boats, and did other work. Q.— ulut your principal business was dealing in coal? A. —In 1885 it was. Q.— Did you charter the vessel for coal? A.— Yes, paid so much a ton freight. Q.— You made a contract for it? A.— Made a contract 91.25 a ton freight. Q.— You are surveyor in the port now, are you not? A.— go Yes, sir. Q-— And you have been interested in shipbuilding? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Now, will you tell us some of the shipbuilders here from 1884 fo 1888, when you were giving this matter atten- tion? A. — There was one, Clark, that was here the other day. Q.— He is still here? A.— He is still here. He was in the witness box. He built the "Rainbow." 10 20 30 40 50 9i9 (Walter Walker— Grom. H. J. Cook— Direct.) Q.— Never mind what he did. I am asking for the names. Now, tell me the name of any other ahipbuilder that was here in those days. A. — Mr. Cook. Q.— This man that has been on the stand this morning? A.— Yes. Q. — Someone else? A.— Macaulay Smith. Q.— Where is he? A.— He is at the Marine Railway at Eaqaimalt at present. And Alexander Watson, senior, father of the one that was here. Q.— Where is Alexander Watson, senior? "A.— He is in the city now. Q. — The next one? A.— Alexander Stacker, who built the "Sayward." He is dead now. Q. — He had a partner, did he not? A- — There was a part- ner. Q. — What was his name? A. — I don't recollect. Q. — Is he still here? A. — I don't recollect who was with him. Q. — Do you know whether the man that was with him is here in Victoria? A. — 1 don't know. Q. — GWe us the next one. A. — John Robinson. Q.— Still here? A.— Still here. Mr. Turpcl, I think, had started then. Q. — Next? A. — Colwin, who had what they called the Clyde ship yard. He is not here now. Q. — Where is he? A. — He is in Scotland; in the Orkney Islands, I believe. His brother is here. Q.— Was his brother here in 1886? A.— He wan; he work- ed in our yard. Q. — The next man? A. — There was Alex Watson, jr., built some boats and had some contracts. Q.— Still here? A.— Still here. Q. — Next man? A. — Joseph Clark. Q.— Still here? A.— Yes, he is foreman for the C. P. N. Company. Q. — Next man? A. — I don't remember any more. Q. — Do you remember Harding, who was engaged in ship- building here from 1884 to 1886? A.— No. Q. — A man by the name of Richards? A. — I didn't know him. Q. — Do yon think yon have named all those within your memory now? A. — All those that built boats to the best of my recollection, that had any boats to build. I think, with a little time I can furnish you with a full list. Q. — You put your valuation upon what you know of the cost of vessels? A. — Well, not altogeher. I allow a cer- tain amount for depreciation. Q. — But you estimate the cost, and then allow for deprecia- tion; that is the way you arrive at the value? A. — That is the way I arrive at the value. iff M ! H ■^\ \ i i k-u ^r ;! 1 1 ^ it ! I i qq Hubert J. Cook, recalled on the part of Great Britain. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupper: Q. — Is this the book you referred to on your examination a little while ago, as to the entry qf the amount charged Mr. Warren and received? A. — (Examfning' book.) That is it, sir. Q. — How much is it, what do you find? A.— 11,242, and then there Is an entry here below of |48.76. u il A I 840 ,H . 1 ¥r! 'I m' it (H. J. C.'iMik— Orlando Warner— Direct— CroK*.) Entry in book is as follows: "1878, due to H. J. Cook, J. D. Warren, to May 17, for work on "Thornton, total amount 11,242.40. Canb on aroount 1860. Ilalance due |382.40. To June 27, a-4ths days', |48.75." Witness says he does not know what the entry is for as to the and 3-4tliH days. By Sir C. H. Tupper:— Q. — Do yon know what sealing boats cost in 1880? A.— -fO per fmrt. Twenty-finrt b transferred to the case of the "Thornton." 20 Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupper: Q. — I will ask you, Mr. Turpel, whether you knew the schooner "Thornton" in 188(1? A.— No, I didn't know her. Q. — Did you know anything about sealing boats in 1886? A. — ^Yes, I had contractetl for them, and I had contracted and built them. Q. — How much did they cost? A. — fl20 apiece. Sir C. H. Tupper: — Then Bfr. Turpel's evidence in the ^o "Thornton," so far as I am concerned, will consist of that transfer from the "Carolena" case, of general evidence, and the evidence he has given. Q. — In regard to sealing boats, is it necessary to repair them each season as they are bnraght in? A.-^Yes, as a general rule. Q. — ^They depreciate very rapidly in value, do they not? A. — Well, by spending a few dollars on them yearly they will hold on pretty well. Q. — What is the usual life of a sealing boat? A.— Five or six years, I suppose, I know scmie of them eight years old. Q.— Is not the usual life of a sealing boot much shorter? A. — If they are well taken care of they are good for live or six years. I have got them now for four years, and they are new seemingly as when I got them built. Q.— Do they not get heavier? A.— They get a little water logged. Q. — Do they not get double their weight in three years? A. — If they are kept well painted it does not matter so much. Q. — And weight has a great deal to do with the value of a sealing boat, hasn't it? A.— It has something, but I can't answer what it has to do exactly; from what I know if they are kept well painted they do not get waterlogged. Q. — ^Yon are the owner of the "Sadie Turpel" sealing schooner? A. — One of the owners. Q.— And she is fitted with boats? A.— Yes. The witness was not further examined. 60 John Dallas was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain, and was duly sworn. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupper: Q. — You were on the schooner "Thornton" as cook in 1886, were you not? A. — Yes, sir. m 3! mv. r 1 t ; m '^ l! '•* I 1 : I! %4i i li'''' lO 20 30 40 50 60 (John DnlliiR— nirert.) Q.— That wai during the const trip? A.— Yea, air. (4. — And afterwards you were boat puller? A. — Yea. air, on the Ilehring Sea trip. Q.— Who waa your captain? A.— Captain Hana Ghriatian- aen. Q.— He la dead? A. — He died next trip. Q.— Who waa mate? A.— Wilaon, otherwise railed Harry Norman. Q. — Do you know where he is? A. — No, sir. Q. — How many of a crew had the "Thornton"? A.— Pour- teen all told. Q. — The captain is dead and you do not know where the mate Is? A. — No, sir. Q. — Are any of the others about here? A. — No, sir. Q. — You are the only one? A. — The only one, sir. Q. — How many boats, had yon? A. — Four, sir. Q. — Were they new boats or old? A. — New boata. Q. — You had no stem boat? A. — No, sir. Q. — Just four sealing boats? A. — Four sealing boats. Q. — About how long were they, do you remember? A. — I think 20 feet. Q. — What lay wep; you on? A.— Four bits a skin, sir. Q.— That is 50 cents? A.— Yes. Q.— What had the hunters for their lay? A.— $1.50 per skin. Q.— You hunted first on the coast in 1886 on the "Thorn- ton"? A. — I was on the coast first. Q. — Then you put into Clayquot before you started direct for the Behring Sea? A. — ^Yes, sir. Q. — You got your provisions for the Behring Sea voyage at Clayoquot from Captain Warren? A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Warren: — Do not lead this witnosa so much, Sir Charles. Sir C. H. Tupper:— If it is to be the understanding that there is to be no leading, then I shall be very glad for my part; it was allowed by both sides in order to save time. Mr. Dickinson :— My learned friend made merely a sugges- tion with regard to this particular witness. Sir C. H. Tupper: — I would prefer the rule to be enforced myself, that there should be no leading. Mr. Dickinson : — It la a mere suggestion from counsel. Examination by Sir C. H. Tupper continued. Q. — Out of what ship did Captain Warren give yon the provisions? A. — The "Dolphin." Q. — Who was in command of the "Dolphin"? A. — Cup tain Warren. Q. — What did you get out of the "Dolphin"? Do you re- member what kind of provisions? A. — Tliere were three or four barrels of beef, tea, coffee and flour. Q, — Biscuits? A. — We had biscuits on the schooner. Q. — What do you mean by biscuits, do you mean pilot bread? A. — Yes, pilot bread. Q. — Did you eat seal meat and fish? A. — Yes. Q.— On that trip? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And did the rest of the crew eat that? A. — ^Yes, sir. Q. — Do you remember when vou were seized in the "Thornton"? A.— Yes. Q. — What happened to the provisions after that? A. — We were very short of provisions. Q. — What happened to those that you had? A. — They had flour, no sngar, tea, coffee, or anything. lO 20 30 843 (John l>nllu«— Dim-t— CroM.) Q. — What Hhip did ymi gu on from the "Thornton"? A. — On the steamer to Hun PrnnciMo. (J. — What food hud you on the stcamerr A.— The food they took off the lehooner. Q. — Off what schooner? A. — The "Thornton." Q. — Was that the case with the otiier men, or how did they get their food on board the steamer? A. — Every man got his provisions off the schooner. Q. — What did the other men tulcen to Ran Franrisco get their food on board the steamer? A. — From the steamer. Q. — You do not understand me. A. — Every man on that steamer went to Hun Francisco tuldng the provisions off his own schooner? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And that was the ease with the other men as well as the men from the "Thornton?" A. — Yes, sir, every man. Q. — Do you n'meniber tlie name of the steamer you went on? A.— The "St. Paul." Q. — And she toolc you to where? A. — San Francisco. Q. — What were you short of on the voyage? A. — I waa short of butter, and sugar, and tea, and milk, and dried ap- ples, and several things. Q. — Had you been out on any trips but this? A.— No, that was the first trip 1 went in the "Thornton." Q. — Was it UBUul to eat seal meat? A. — On the North Coast it was for grub, they were short of grub. Q. — But you had not been sealing in any other year but in 1886? A.— No, sir. Q. — And that was your first year? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you ever go afterwards? A. — No, sir. Cross-examination by &Ir. Warren: Q. — Did you help to take the provisions that went on board the "St. Paul" from off the "Thorntonf A.— Yes, sir. Q.— How did you take them to the "St. Paul?" A.— In boats. Q. — In whose boats? A. — In the "Thornton's" sealing 40 boats. Q. — Did any men go from her in the boat when the pro- visions went there except the men who went to row? A. — Five men in a boat the first trip. Q. — Any provisions in that Inrnt? A. — Yes. Q. — Then you must have had but few provisions on her? A. — Very little provisions; only a few sacks of flour and beans, that's all. Q. — Do you mean that nil the provisions that went off the "Thornton" were a few sacks of flour and some beans? A. — There might be four or five sacks of flour and a few sacks of beans, that's all. Q.— Anything else? A. — No, sir. Q. — That includes what you took and what all the others took? A. — Yes, sir; that is all. Q. — And the men who belonged to the "Thornton" took these things themselves? A. — ^Yes, he got orders to take them, take off t)H> grub, and bring it on the steamer to feed them on the pnssage. Q.— Your captain told you that? A.— No, sir, the cap- tain of the cutter said that. Q.— Did you hear the captain of the cutter give that order? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you hay that you went into the harbour of Oun- alaska? A.— No, Chucreal; it is near Ounalaska; it is just a little small place called Chucreal, there is a wharf there, it is near Ounalaska. SO Co ■'i'': \\ Ul ! i ' ) ( ; iljflil t if 'ill' 844 lO 20 30 40 SO 60 (il(»llll DillhlM — Cl-OHM.) Q. — You Mild ihvre were fourtuc'ii luvu uu board the "Thorn- ton," how iiiuny of them; uieu wfrv ludiuiin? A. — Two Hi- wimh, vleveu white men aud a Chinaman. Q.— Tlic ChinnuiHU was tlie cook? A.— Yea, air. Q.— You were not coolt on that trip? A.— No, air, I waa coolc on the weat coiiat. Q.— The Chinamuu went up from Clayoqnot with you? A.— Yea, air. (i.— Who waa the hunter you pulled for? A.— I could not tell you hia name, lie lielonKa to Ht. John, N.D. Q.— Were the men provided with Runa? A.— Yea, air, I think the guna Ix'longed to the achooner. Q-— What g'ina did they have. 8hot gnna or rlHea? A.— A. — 8liot gnna and riflea. Q.— Did each hunter have a aliot gun? A— A ahot gun and rifle, each one. Q.— Were there any extra ahot guns? A.- Well, there waa an old one. but all the reHt were new. Q. — Do you know that they were all new? A.— I aaw them, I had them right in my hand. Q. — You do not know 'vhen they were bought? A.— They looked new. Q.— When waa it that the "Thornton" carried away her mnat head? A. — 4fMi milea from Vietoiia. Q.— Off the weat conat? A.— Yea, air. Q. — She had earried awny her masthead? A.— Yea, air. Q. — And her fore rigigng? A. — No. Q. — You did not have her rigging on when ahe entered lleh- ring Sea? A. — No. Q.— She waa in bad ahape when ahe went into the Sea? A- 1 fixed her maat all right on the paaaage. Q.— What did you do to it? A.— 1 fixed it. Q. — Did the rigging come down? A. — Yea. Q.— How, the eail fell down on the deck? A.— Yea. Q.— And that waa 400 milea from Victoria? A.— Yea. O. — Did you repair that? A. — Yea, my work waa worth a tL laand dollara; I naked my life to go up on the arhooner. l« I III H — < 'rOHH.) Q. — Yoli w«'ut aMlion> HoiiH'tiiiK'H? A. — Vttt, lli«'y would iillow on*' wiitfli to K<> ai«hon> oiu* dny, iind the next wiitch tli«> next diiy; tiii\v iillow«'d tlie ciiiitiiiti iind the mute to go iiahore every day. H. — And the mate? A. — And the mate, ii. — They eould do whatever they ideawd? A. — Yei«, ulr. Q. — Ho that the mate and tlie master of the 'Thornton" were not eonfln»'d to their nhip at OunalaKka? A. — No. Q. — You went down to Han Franeiaco, so you do not know what hapitened at Hitku? A. — No. (i.— You wen' never nt HItka that year? A. — No. (i.— You wer«' never at Hltka at all? A. — No. Q. — At OunahiBka did you see the men off the "Carolena" take Home pntviMlons (m btmrd the "Ht. Paul"? A. — Yen, ulr. Q. — \Vhat did they um' to n'lnove the provlHlons? A. — They UHed one of the ennoeH; the "Carolena" had four ranoea. ii. — What boat did they use? A. — The aeallng boat be- longing to the sehooner "Tliomton." Q. — And they uhihI one of the«« canoes? A. — Yea. Q. — They uiM»d one of ■ i;c iMNitH? A. — Yea, air. Q. — And they just took j'l'vialona to the "St. Paul" once? A.— Yea. Q. — You anw them do that? A. — Yea. Q.— They had one o" Ihe "TJiomtonV bonta? A.— Ye«. Q. — \Va« there mi ilian one mnn In the boat when the;* took the proviHiona from the "Carolena"? A. — There wei^ two men. (J. — Did tlu-y take abo-if Mie name qunntltv of provlaioni on to the "St. Paul" Ihnt r.ime off the "Thornton?" A.— I cannot tel> you, becnuHe I never looked in the boat. Q. — You never looked to B«'e what provialona thev took? A.— No. Q. — Were the provJHiona that were taken off the "Car- olena" and carried to the "Ht. Paul" in the same boat that the provialona were that were carried from the "Thornton" to the "Ht, Paul"? A.— Yes. Q. — And all thia tranafer waa made In one trip? A. — Yea, 40 air. Q. — Were proviaiona taken off the "Onward" and put Into that little boat? A.— No, air. Q. — The proviKiona that M'ere taken off the "Onward" were put Into the "Ban Diego"? A.— There waa the old "Hnn Diego" there. Q. — You were not miataken about that? Yon were aure that all the provialona that were taken off the "Carolena" and went on to the "Ht. Paul" were carried in the aame boat in which thev carried the provlnlona from the "Thornton" to the "Ht. Paul"? A.— Yea. y. — And how many men off the "Carolena" were in that boat, did .vou any? A. — There were two men in the boat. Q. — How many men from the "Thornton" were in that boat? A.— Thn-e. Q. — Then there weiv five In thjit altogether? A. — Yea. Q. — There were Ave men in that boat, and the proviaiona that came off the "Carolena." and the proviaiona that came off the "Thornton," and that boat went over to the "Ht. Paul?" A. — Yea, ai. Q, — And there waa j:ist that one trip made when there were any proviaiona carri«Hl? A. — Yea, that'a It. Q. — Tlie otlier tripa made might have taken men. but they did not take any proviaiona? A. — ^No, air. Q. — Are you certain about that? A. — Yea, air. Q. — Do you rememb<'r how many men there were on the "fit. I'aul" from the achoonera? A. — No, air, but I know that Mr. Hpring'a aehooner had Indiana. SO 60 '■i \M ;i '1^ •Hf: 846 ? !l ! ; 1; I l! ! 1 1 10 (John DalluH— Cross.) Q. — I do not think they went down with you? A. — No, sir. Q.— They went on the "Sun DJego" to Sitka? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Whatever skins you took between Clayoquot Hound and Uehrini; Sea you kept right on board the vessel? A. — Tliere were Ave skins. Q. — Yon had only five? A. — Five from Clayoquot Bound to Behring Sea there wer*^ five, and the rest •We got inside Behring Sea. Q. — I think you said two men in a boat went ont hunting? A. — No, sir, three. Q. — How do you make that out? A. — Two white men and an Indian. Q. — 80 that there were twelve hunting altogether? A. — Yes. Q. — And yon left the captain and the mate on board the boat? A. — No, the mate was hunting too. 20 Q' — Well, you left the captain and the Chinaman on board the boat? A. — Yes. Q. — And when the boats went out hunting there would be the captain and the cook left on board? A. — ^Yes, that's all. Q. — Did you have many groceries or provisions left on board when you took the others from the "Dolphin"? A. — No, sir, there was not very much left; there was some flour and some biscuits. Q. — You remember that? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — If you don't recollect it I don't want you to answer. 3O Do you recollect just about how much there was here? A. — I could not tell you how much there was . Q. — But you could tell the articles that were there? A. — There were 25 or 30 sacks of flour. Q. — And how much biscuit? A. — Ten or twelve sacks. Q. — And the "Thornton" had been trading with the In- dians there from time to time? A. — No, sir. Q. — On the trip that you were cook on board had she been trading with the Indians? A. — Yes, sir, sometimes some In- dians would come and buy some apples or something like 40 that. Q. — And buy some pilot bread? A. — Yes. Q. — You used to sell the pilot bread on the west coast in these years? A. — Yes. Q. — And the "Thornton" had enough pilot bread on board tn sell some. A. — Yes, they would carry about ten boxes un- less they wanted to sell some to the Indians. Q. — And they would sell some to the Indians? A. — Oh, yes! On a long trip— four or five months — they would car- eo '-^ *''" boxes of biscuit. Q. — Did they buy any slvins from the Indians on the west coast? A. — No. sir. Q. — You took the provisions off the "Dolphin" at Clayo- quot Sound? A. — Yes. Q. — Did vou get all the provisions you took off the "Dol- phin?" a"!— Yes, sir. Q. — Do you remember what you took off the "Dolphin?" A. — No, sir, I cannot remember. Q. — How did they carry tlie things from the "Dolphin" to 60 the "Thornton?" A.— In boats. Q. — In your own boats? A. — Some carried in those boats, and some in another boat. Q. — Did you not get any flour or any pilot bread there? A. —No. Q._What did you get? A.— Rome sugar, tea. coffee, dried apples, butter and three or four barrels of beef. Q.— What kind of beef? A.— Corned beef. Q.— Did you have any pork? A.— Yes, sir. ,1! m 847 (John Dallas — (vrosa — Re-direct.) Q.— Did you get tliat off the Dolphin? A.— Yen, ■ir. Q.— Did you get any bacon and ham? A.— Yes, air. Q.— Did you jjet that off the "Dolphin?" A.— Yea, air. Q. — When you were taken up in Behring Sea you were pretty short of provieionB? A. — Yea, sir. Q.— So that you did not get much off the "Dolphin?" A.— No, sir. lo Q.— Do you know anything as to the value of what yon took from the "Dolphin?" A.— I cannot tell. Q.— Was the "Thornton" in such a condition when you en- tered the Sea that you could lower your boats and seal on every good day? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— And she did that? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Do you n>member what time she went into the Sea? A. — No, sir, I cannot tell that. Q. — Which bont was picked first bv the cutter— the "Thorn- ton" or the "Carolenn?" A. -The "Thornton," I was the 20 first man picked up. Q — You were out in your little boats? A —Yes. sir. Q.— But the "Thornton" wsis picked up liefore the "Caro- lenn?" A.— Yes. Q — And after the "Carolena" was taken in iow of the "Cor- win" then the -'Onward" was taken? A. — There was one- half an hour or two miles between them. Q. — Mr. Spring's schooner, vou mean the "Onward?" A. — Yes. Q.— You went to San Francisco in the "St. Paul." Now, 3° in what boat did you come back from San Francisco? A. — In the steamer running from San Francisco to Victoria. Q. — How many men were you altogether when you came back on that steamer? A. — One man along with myself. Q. — Who was that man? A. — He was a hunter on the "Carolena." Q.— Was it John Cotsford? A.— Yes. Q. — And John paid your fare? A. — Yes. Q. — And he put up your watch to do that? A. — No, John .Q put up his watch and paid my passage. Q. — And you were the man that was cook on the "Thorn- ton" whose fare Cotsford paid? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you know anything about the quanti(y of ammuni- tion that was on board the "Thornton" when she was seiz- ed? A. — I cannot lell. Q. — You are positive about there being no extra suit of sails on board hor? A. — No, sir; all that was on her was canvas to fix sails with. Q. — Did you make a statement once that the "Carolena" 50 was five or six miles from you when she was seized? A. — No. Q. — Is that nearer right than what you have said just now? A. — No, sir, two or three miles off were the "Onward" and the "Carolena." Re-direct examination by Sir C. H. Tup|)er: Q. — What provisions did you say were left on the "Thorn ton." Were flour and bread left there? A. — Yes. Q. — Were any other provisions left on the "Thornton" when 60 you went on the steamer? A. — There was not much left only flour and bread. Q. — Was there anything but flour and bread? A. — There might have been a few pounds of sugar or something like that. Q. — Nothing else? A. — Nothing else. Q. — You are certain of thnt? .\.— Certain. Q. — .Inst as you were thiit there were no sails on the "Thornton?" A. — Only canvas. 848 'mm Ijlir "•ri!i i 10 11 1 I ! (John \hil\m — Ke-dlivet.) Q. — When yuu suy thut there wns not an extra 8uit of sails on board do you mean that jou did not see them? A. — 1 could Bee them myself, she was a small schooner. Q. — Did you know everything that was on board? A. — Yes. most everything. Q. — Can you tell me all that she had on board? A. — Yes, I eould tell you. Q. — What did she have on board? A. — Pour boats, in each boat two shot guns and a rifle, one suit of sails, several pieces of canvas, for repairing sails, bread biscuit, tea, and things like that — except tea and coffee we were very short of pro- vision. Q. — Is that all you can mention as being on board the schooner? A. — Two anchors jind chains. (}. — ^^'Ilal more? \. — I cannot say about how much grub there was on the schooner; I know there was some l»iscuit, bread, butter, tea, sugar, and things like that when we left 20 Clayoquot; I think that's all. Q. — Was that all there was on the ship? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Was there anything else? A. — No. Q. — You have told me all she had on board? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Did't she have a few sacks of coal? A. — Yes. Q. — Have you told us everything? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Are you sure that was all on the trip? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — .\nd that is all she had when she was seized? A. — That is all. Q. — Anything more? A. — Nothing more. 3° Mr. Dickinson: — Are you going to contrsidict your own wit- ness? Sir ('. H. Tupper: — We have records on both sides to show that he is making a mistake in this; I think he is honest enough about it. but I don't think he undei-stands. (To the witness): Are you able to sjiy. Mr. Dallas, whether any bivad was sold on that trip? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you see any bi-ead sold? A. — N<», sir. y. — Did you s«h' any bart«'red or exchanged for other things? A. — No, sir; on the northwest coast I saw them sell about y were bringing the j^rovis- ions from the "Thornton" to the "St. Paul''? A. — I was on board the schooner "Thornl;illaH — K»'(liri'rrub from the "Carolena" was put pether and ttiven out. Q. — The food from the "Carolena" and the "Thornton" was mixed? A. — Yes. A.— fi-oiii them, vour- alto- [ ; ti Re-eross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — What did you mean wlien you said you remembered th:it there were five in the boat? A. — That was in the two boats. 40 Q. — Then how many men eame from the "Carolena?" A. —Two. Q.— Did the boats from the "Carolena" stop at the "Thorn- ton?" Did the boat that took (he jirovisions from the "Caro- lena" to the "St. Paul" stop at the "Thornton?" A.— YeB. Q. — What did she stop there for? A. — .lust yarnin^r and talking. Q. — And how many men were in the boat that went from the "Carolena?" Were there two or lhr«H*? A. — Tlu-ie were 50 two men in the eanoe. Q. — You do not unde!-st;ind with the case of the "Onwai-d," and wish to nialje a few reniarljs with reference TO that case. I state that with regard to the outfit of the "Onward," she outfitted in tlie niontli of February, or March, with a very considerable amount of provisions; these provisions were not ail intended for her sealing voyage, but a considerable por- tion was intended for trading purposes on the west coast of Vancouver Island, where Mr. Spring, the managing owner 30 of the "Onward," was inter('st<>d in thi-ee trading stations. I state that it is impossible for me to separate the articles which were intended for such trading pnrpo8(>s from those which were iutt'nd*>d as part of the actual sealing outfit. Therefore, I will content myself, to a certain extent, wifh giving general evidence as to the quantity and quality of the provisions put on board the "Onward" during that voyage. Of course the voudiers are here for inspection, and may be of value with rrgnrd to the prices. As to the evidence, it is agreed that the '"Onward" was a 40 vessel of 35.20 tons register, 50 5-10 feet long, 20 feet wide and 4.5 feet deep; that she was built in California. United States of America, in 1871 ; that she was registered as a British ship in the port of Victoria, 52nd September, 1878. Hubert John Cook was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain and duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Peters:, Q. — State generally how long you have been in the ship 5(> building business? A. — Forty-six years. Q. — How long were you actually the owner of ways which vessels were hauled up for repairs and alterations? A. — I had ways in Nanaimo in 1800 and 1867. Q. — In the city of Victoria have you had them since 1873? A. — Yes, sir, I have had them for the past sixteen years. Q. — And during that time had you experience in the repair- ing of very many schooners? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You also, I believe, built some schooners? A. — I have (^ built no schooners; I have built steam boats and small craft, but I never built sealing schooners. Mr. Peters: — I wish the evidence given by this witness, and taken in tlie "Thornton" case, with the exception of such parts as are obviously inapplicable to this case, to be trans- erred. Direct examination continued by Mr. Peters; 851 20 (II. J. Cook— Diiert.) Q. — 1 want you to come down fo the schooner "Onward." Did you work on the schooner? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you work on lier in tlie yenr 1878? A. — Yes. nir. Q. — Have you a book there with reference to that? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — According to that book did you work on her in Septem- ber, 1878? A. — Yes. that was wlien she was brought to the 'O country first. Q. -I want you to tell me if, at that time, she was a centre- board? A. — Yes, slie had a centre-board on one side of the keel, it did not go through on the main keel. Q.— Did they alter tluit? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — Did you do the work? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What did you do? A. — I took out the centre-board, and blocked tlx* hole up that gH underneath, and put in a false kei>l and main keel, and fastened her right down through. Q. — You altered her from the centre board to a keel ves- sel, putting on a false keel? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You worked on her in 1881 again according to your book from the 30th September to the 11th October. That's in your book; is that correct? A. — That is correct, what is in that book. Q. — Was she on your slip again in 188fi? A. — Yes, she was there. Q.— In January. 1880. to February. 1886?A.— Yes, sir. Q. — And then she went out to sea, and was not heard of any more? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Will yon tell me what sort of a vessel she was,, and what she was built of? A. — She was built of Oregon pine. Q. — Was she copper fastened, or galvanised? A. — She was galvanised. Q. — Do you know anything about her sailing qualities? A. — She was a very good sailer. Q. — How do you know that? A. — From what I heard from Captain McKay. Q. — What did he say? A. — He said she sailed good. Q. — Could yon, from your knowledge of the "Onward," say what she was worth in 1886? The roinmis«(ioner on the part of the Ignited States: — We had better avoid confusion in that. T got confused the other day because of a question like that that was put to a ship carpenter — perhaps Mr. Cook, hijnself — and it turned out that he answered what he thought she cost, as she stood. 50 40 5C Mr. Peters: — I will ask him what she cost to build. The Commissioner on the part of the Ignited States: — It does not matter how you put it so long as it is made clear. Mr. Peters: — Certainly (To witness): Q. — From your knowledge of ships, and from your know- ledge of ship building, what would the "Onward" cost to liuild in 1S8(>? A.— That is here in Victoriii? Q. — Yes. A.— She would cost flO.'i a foot, builder's 60 measurement, that is for hull and spars. Q. — Can you give it to nie by the ton. instead of by the foot? A. — It was "ton" I meant. Mr. Dickinson: — This evidence is only coni|)etent. of course, in the absence of evidence as to market value. The Commissioner on the part of the Vnited States: — It is covered by the objection taken in the "Carolena" case. Wj\ i '1^ (|ii:"l 'illli W. l!'! I : I, Mliif WfF^l ' <||..|,: 20 853 01. J. (NMjk— IHivit— Cioss.) Dirt'fJ fxiiiuiiialiuii by Mi*. IN'tt'i-s i-oiitiiiii*>d: Q. — You nii'iiu biiil'Ifi-'B iut*nHiiri'niunt by "tou?" A. — Yes. Q. — Do you kuow (In* diiTeinicf betwt^t'u buildor'H uieuHuro- iiii'Ui jind r«>{;iMtor('(i nuMiHUivnient? A. — It till tlcponds on the sliiip*' of tilt' v«'HH«-l wliu-li liiiH trot to lu' It^urod out. (i. — I>o you kTu»w wliiit the (ountiKf ''f t'ds vi'Hsel w«)uld be — bnllder'H uientiurenient? A. — I have no i-i'i-olleclion. to (i.— ("an you (ell me near i(? A.— She would be i'A or 44 tons. Q. — That Is buildei'K ineaHurenicnt? A. — Yes. Q.— When you Hay "hull and sparH," do you mean it would not im-lude the sailH and I'lfffiinn'! A. — No, Bir, I inelude in that hull and t)])arH. and notliin}? more. Q-— You knew about the aj,'e of the "Onward," did you? A. — Yes. she wan built in 1S71. Q.— Do you know anything about the sale of veHHeln nt that time? The jtrice that vessels were sellinj: at at that time? •^•— Of eonrso I eould pive a roujjh statement of the ju-iee (tf v«'»8els at that time. Q.— TlaviuR repaid to the ajje of (he "Onward." what would you think she was worth at (hat time? Taking the differenee between her and a new vessel, was she in pood order, or what sort of order was she in. in ISSfi? A. — In H|dendid order, I would claim that she was a vessi^l that was well kept. Q. — She would not be as pood ns a new vessel. I presume? A.— No. 30 rross-exainination by Mr. \Varren: Q.— ^Vheu you gave your testimony in the ease of the "Thornton" you slated that she was repaired in 1877, and that in the year 18!S(> she was as good as new, praetieally, or that there was about |1(H» ditTerence? A.— That is all. Q.— ^Vhy do you say that the "Onward" was not anywhere as pood as new although you stated that slie had bwu well kept? A. — I said she had been well kept. Q. — You also s(a(ed (hat she was not ivordi as much as sin? 40 was new? A.— I never saw thntugh the 'Onwaril" as I did the "Thornton," I never went tliroiiph tiie frame of the "On- ward." (i. — ^'011 iieviM- inspcrtfd the "Onwa.d?" A. — Never a thoronph insp«><-tion. Q. — You do iio( know whedier (he frames were sound or not? A — I think 1 bored tlirouph the bottom, and it was all ripht. Q. — I thought you said that you never inspected her? A. —I did not see tier any more than the borings. Q. — You b(M"ed in (lirough her? A. — Yes, I bored through her, and fastened hi-r keel. Tliat was in 1S7H. ii — You do not know anytliing about her timbers after IS7S, as to tlieir remaining sound or not? A. — I never seen lier timbers. Q. — After tliat? A. — She was well ke]»t, she was fastened in lier centre board, and (here was not leakage there. (i.— You talked about wliat it would cost to build the "On- ward" in ISSfi: \Yhat vessels of tlw' character of the "On- 60 ward" did you build in ISSti? A.— 1 do not know. Q.— Did Vou build any? A.— No. Q.— Did you build any in th.; year 1SS.5? A.— I did not V)uil(l anv sealing schooners. Q.— XVliat steam boats did you build in IHSfi? A.— The "Royal ntyr ().— In (he vear IHMfl? A.— T( w;is long before that. q._\V1h.ii was it? A. -If was in -Tune. 1S7I, or 1S7.^. Q. — Were you working on any boats in (he year 188(», e.xcept SO «53 20 30 40 50 Co (}l. .1. < '00k— Cross.) iu (he uialU'i- of iii»aiiM? A.— Of couiBe 1 was icpaiiiui; \ «'t»SL*lt)-. y.— Wi-re >ou eouslructiug any uew vt-Hsels, or wore you uii- BiHiiiig iu tUf eouHtructiou ot uuy uew vosBeiH? A. — .No, 1 dou't iluuk il. I/.- Uow Uo jou know liow uiui;l» it would tost lo build u voBHi'l iu l«!sor iV.— 1 could tell you wluii lUvy were wortli, , 1 nave ugured lUeiu up, 1 could make HpecilicatioUM aud i could ruu tlirougli llie biiccillcuiiou, aud leu you exacliy wuat Uie vessel is i;oiug lo cost me. U- — Aud you could uow, 1 suppose? A. — 1 could tbeu. San i< ranciMi-o, and s«(iue came out from tlie East. (I. — Were tiiere any that came out from the KasI in 18S0? A. — Yes, Ihe "falhUnder" was the lirst lo come out, and 1 think she came out in 18.SU. ? A.— I consider between |!4,01I0 and Ij!4,u00, or soine- tniiig like that. II. — Von got that figure on a basis of f Id'i per builder's ton? A. — ^_She would run over that. ti.— 1 aslved you v. hat the "Ouward" would cost in 188(i, and ami you said tietweeu ;|f4,t)t((» and $4,r)U«? A.— 1 told you .flllu per ton. l^. — Did not you answer me just now that Ihe cost would be between f4,tlW0 and )ji4,.">(IO? A.— I say that the vessel was honestly worth between !|fJ,000 and ;f4,5o0. ti.— Was Ihal your idt-a of what she would cost in 188(;? .\. — She would cost more than that. uld she cost iu 188tT? A.— That vessel should run up over $5,UU0. Q. — On what basis did you arrive at that? You have stated that she would cost #105 per builder's ton? A. — Yes, she would go a long way over that. Q.— Over what? A.— Over |5,U()0. Q. — How much would she go over? A. — I have not any tigurea here. Q. — How much do you say she would cost iu 1886 to build her? A.— In 188t> you might take a little oflf that, g.— Take a little oft' what? A.— OH' the flOo a ton. y. — Do you say that she would cost f lllu a ton to build in 188G? A.— No. Q. — Y'ou do not say that? A. — I do not say that in 1886. y.— Didn't you tell Mr .Peters that? A.— Not in 1886, I think 1 put it at that at the time I repaired her. Q. — What in 18T7 or 1878, is that what you mean? A. — In 1878 I would say that. Q. — Then you did not intend to testify that she would cost 1105 per builder's ton to build in Victoria in 1886? A. — Y'ou have got me u kind of muddled up there. Q.^Did you say that she would cost that in 1886? A.— I think she would have; in 1886 you would have to pay al- most double for the material than you woulil now. Q. — I want to understand whether you say that tlie cost of building a boat like the "Onward" in 1886 was fl05 per S rll w a'k . •ill: nil. M.!:': I'ljH lO 20 30 40 5C 60 854 (n. J. ("ook — ('roHs — Rodlrt'ct.) builder's ton? A.— Yes, it would be when you came to reckon what the mnterial was worth then. Q.— JuBt answer my question. Tn 1877 your idea Is that she would cost |105 per builder's ton? A.— Yes, sir. Q._VVa8 it just (he same in 1886 as it was in 1877? A.— There was very little difference. Q.— Do 1 understand that to build the "Onward" in 1886 it would cost flOO per builder's ton? A.— Yes. Q.— What is your idea of the total cost of the "Onward" in 1886, or of a boat like the "Onward"? A.— The total cost as she stood then I would put in at about |4,500; sEe was well fitted oul in riKgiug and sjuls, and everythinjj about her was good; I could not go into the inside where I could see her. Q. — I am not asking you about that. You say that the to- tal cost of the "Onward" ready to go to sea In 1886 would be $4,500. Is that what you niean? A. — She was worth that. Q. — Ready to go to sea? A. — No, sir. Q. — Ready to take her sealing outfit — that is leaving pro- visions out, we are not talking about provisions at all. Is it not your idea that the "Onward," reckoning on a basis of |105 per builder's ton, would cost |4,500? A. — Yes, she would cost over that. Q. — How many builder's tons are there in a registered ton? A. — A builder's ton is 05 feet, a registered ton is lOO feet. Q. — And that is your idea of the difference between a builder's ton and a registered ton, is it, Mr. Cook? A. — Yes, that is my way of measuring a vessel. Re-direct 4>xaniination by Mr. Pt^ters: Q. — You were asked whether you had examined the frames of the vessel; as a matter of f^Tct could you examine the frames without taking out the ceilings? A. — No, certainly not. Q. — You did not take the ceilings out? A. — I did not take the ceilings out. Q. — So you did not examine the frame of the vessel? A. — I could not sec anything of the frame. Q. — But you could see in putting in the keel, you bored through her keel? A. — I bored through her timber and through her outside keel. Q. — Everything there was solid? A. — Everything was sound. Q. — You were asked by Mr. Warren as to whether, making up your measurement, yo>i weiv speaking of 1886 or 1877 when you i)ut down the Jil(t5 ])or ton. As a matter of fact were wages and nialerial different in 1886 from what they were in 1877 — were they higher or lower? A. — ^There was very little difference, the wages were the same and the ma- t«'rial was nearly the same tiling, there was very little differ- ence In it. Q. — You talked about builder's measurement and you gave one difference between that and the registered measure. As a matter of fact, in using your l)nildei's measure, what measurement do you take? A. — I take from the perpendi- culars. Q. — Where? A. — From the stem and stem post. (i. — And what with? A.— Her full b»'endth of beam. Q. — And so to speak you make that into a box shape? A. — Into a square box shape. Q. — That is what you call builder's measurement? A. — Yes. Q. — That is far larger than registered tonnage? A. — Yes. Q. — Tliat is Ihe rough way you get at it? A. — Yes. Q. — You could not tell from the builder's meanurement what the vessel is going to register at? A. — No, sir. (H. J. Cook- S55 -Redirect — KeeruHH. CroHH.) O. WjirntT — Direct — Q. — DooB not that dopend entirely upon the shape? A. — That depends upon the Hhnpc of tlie vessel. Re-rross-exaniination hy Mr. Warren: Q. — Is it your idea tliat the "Onward" was worth more than the "Thornton" in 188«? A.— No. *o Q. — About how much less was the "Onward" worth than the "Tliomton" in 188«? How much is your idea of what the "Thornton" was worth? A.— f5,5()0. Q.— Ready for machinery? A.— Ready for sea without ma- chinery ready to receive her machinery. Q.— Do you base your valuation of tlie "Thornton" on what she would cost to build in 1886? A.— No, II ■I 20 Orlando Warner, a witness on the part of Great Britain, was recalled. Mr. Peters:— I wish the evidence of this witness as taken in the "Carolena" and "Thornton" cases to be transferred to the "Onward" case — except where it is obviously inapplic- able; that applies to the cross-examination and re-examina- tion. 3° Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — You knew the schooner "Onward," I believe? A. — Yes. Q. — Have you ever worked on her? A. — I never worked on her. Q. — Have you seen her frequently on not? A. — I was in the habit of seeing her. Q. — Was that when she came into harbor? A. — Yes, every year. ^° Q. — ^About what would such a vessel be worth about the year 1886? You knew her age did you not? A. — No, 1 did not know Iiei* age. Q. — Was she kep*^ iu good order? A. — She always looked to me to be a well taken care of little vessel. Q. — Can you give me your idea of lier value? A. — Well, such a vessel as that would be worth anywhere in the neigh- borhood of 14,0(10 to f5,000 ready for an ordinary trip. Q. — Outside of a sealing trip altogether? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You never worked on her? A. — No, sir, I never work- ed on her. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Were you ever on her? A. — I have no recollection of ever having any business in her. Q. — Yon do not remember ever having been on her at all? A. — I do not remember of ever being on board her. Q. — Did you see her on the stays? A. — Yes, sir, I saw her 60 on the ways. Q. — When? A. — I do not recollect the year, I have seen her out, I have seen her at a distance. Q. — You have seen her at t!ie shipyard? A. — Yes, on what we call the ways. Q. — W^hat were you doing at the ship yard at that time? \. — I do not recollect that 1 was even at the yard, but I have Been her, I never went to examine her at all. 50 ! I ■■■ f '\ I II ' II lilll M lO 20 30 40 50 856 (H. Si'ii -Diicct— ri'otw.) Kainu«'l F>4'ii wiiH ciillfd iih a witncHM uii tlii' part of Uri'nt Itiitaiii, aiMl waH diilv hwoi-ii. DirtM-t cxaniinatiun hy Mr. IVtt'rB: ti. — WhiTu do you llvt', Mr. Hoa? A. — lii Victoriu. (2. — Ami you are about, liow old mow? A. — 5!». ii- — Wlial iH }our oi-cupatiou? A. — Hliip builder, sliip- vvrij^lil. ti.— How long have you bci-ii i'lnployt'd in that work? A. — Kv«'r Hinrc 1 \va8 a boy 14 y«>arH old. d at? A. — Huilding vt-HwiH of varioiiM kindH. H. — llavf you built any m-lioonci'H? A. — Yes. i}. — Such UH iir«' used f«>r Healing? A. — Yes. <2.— You actually Ituilt them? A. — Yes. ti- — You contracted feu- them? A. — Xo. to own them. 0. — Have you built many? A.— 1 have built two. (i. — Two f»»r Healing? \. — YeK {]. — In what yearn? A. — In the Hixtie«. Q. — Where? A. — I built one in Victoria and one in AI- borni. (i.— \Vhen? A.— One in 1S«:1 and one in IS68. Q. — You have a knowledge of what it would <'«mt to build that kind of vesnel? A. — Yes, pretty well. Q. — And up t« the preuent time? A. — \o, sir, I have not built any within the past ten yeai'M. ii. — I'l* to ten yeaiH ago had you a knowledge of what it would coHt to build that Hort of a vetwel? A. — (Hi, y«'H. (i. — Did you know the Hchooner "Onward?"' A. — Yes. (2. — Had yon seen her freipieutly or otherwise? A. — I had seen her aind I had worked on her. (2.— When did y(»u work on her, Mr. Sea? A. — I worked on her Heveral times, I think, when she first came to Victoria, I did nd for Mr. Kpring. Q.— On the "Onward?" A.— On the "Onward." Q. — In what shipyard? A. — She was atloat. Q. — What were you doing on her afloat? .\. — I was caulk- ing the deck. Q. — Anything else? A. — Oenerally ]iatching up. Q. — Did you ever work on her hull? A. — We did for Mr. Hprlng. Q. — When was that? A. — In ISSd, or somewhere along 40 there. Q. — When diil you work on her under Mr. Cook? A. — I think it was in 1878 or tS7!». Q. — And you have not been working on any oth»'r ship since? A. — Yes, lots of them. Q. — Of the same class as the "Onward? A. — Pretty much the same class. Q. — How many do you think yoti have worked on sin«'e 1S7S? A. — I suppose 20, it might be more or less. Q. — Have you seen the "Onward" since you work»'d on her? 50 A. — Yes. I have seen her when she used to conu" into harbour. Q. — Have you been upon her? A. — Y'^es. Q. — Have you seen her since 1880? A. — I cannot say I have seen her since 1880. I might. Q. — Are you positive you saw lier betwten 1880 and 1880? A. — I think I have. Q. — Well, are you positive? A. — I cannot exactly swear, but I am almost sure. Q. — Are vou about as sure that you saw her since 1880? Co ^^•— Yps- Q. — VriMxi are yon doing now? A. — I am working at my trade sometimes. Q.— What is that? A.— Ship building. Q. — What else are you doing? A. — T am working on the farm. Q. — Where do yon farm? A. — It is ont on the Burnside road. Q. — Do vou devote vo'.ir attention entirelv to vour farm? A.— No. "11 r l^uHnf ! lO 20 !ii.i': 858 (H. H,.,|_r,.oHH— R«'»lln«». A. WatHoii— IMwrf.) Q. — Do vou il«*vut(' ^-oiir iitti>ntlun f>iitiri>lv to Hliip build- Ing? A.— No. Q. — To what do vou d«»vot«' vour nttentioii principnlly? A. — Whon I tn'\ like ^hip building I do it. Q. — Whnt t'liip do you do? A. — Walk around. Q. — You nn» wtlrwl? A. — I am not exactly n'tired, If any one wants me to work for them I do. y. — Are you living In the digtrict? Kumaide road. Q. — Do you stay here at nightH in tinies. Q. — What do you do about town? Q. — Yes. A. — Walk around and see the nightH. Q. — Every day? A. — Not every day. Q. — And when you work In the ship yard you work as a joumeymaQ? Do you work for dally wages? A. — Yes, for dally wages. Q. — When you put a price upon the "Onward," were you thinking of her because of your knowledge of ship building? A.— YeB. A. — I am living on the Victoria? A.— Rome- A.— What do I do? ■n,\W 30 Re-dlrect examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — When you spoke of building two vessels, one in 1S03 and th eother in 1872, yon stated that they were about 52 tons each, if you remembered correctly? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — When you speak of tonnage in that way, are you giv- ing builder's measurement or rr'gistered tonnage? A. — Registered tonnage. m 'f\ 'ill: i<; ii'r ■ I ! II Alexander Watsoa, Jr., was recalled as a witness on the part of Qreat liritaiu. 40 Mr. Peters: — With regard io this witness I desire that his evidence given in the case of the 'i'iirol'iia," exe«*pt where obviously inapplicable, should be transferred, and also his evidence given in the "Thornton" case, that applies to the cross-examination and also to the re-cross-examination. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Will you be kind enough to tell me whether you know the "Onward"? A.— Yes. 50 Q. — Did you ever work on her? A. — Not that I remember. Q. — Have you Ead several opportunities of examining and seeing the "Onward"? A. — 1 have been on board several times, and around her very often. Q. — Did you see her when she was oii the slip at any time? A. — Not that 1 remember. Q. — You have seen her in the harboui" on several occas- ions? A. — Yes. Q.— She was seized in 1886? A.— Yes. Q. — Have you ever seen her before 1886 or in the year 1886? ^° A.— I do not say positively as to 1886, but 1885 I seen her. Q. — Now then, from your knowledge of shipbuilding — which we have already got- -and from your knowledge of the "Onward," did you Ifnow her age about? A. — No, I did not know exactly what her age was, but I should think she could not be a very old vessel. Q. — From' your knowledge of the "Onward," can you say what she was worth? A.— Prom f 4,325 to 15,000. lo 859 (A. WiilHon— hiriTt -CittuH. W. Wiilkcr— IMr«'«<— rioi«.) Q.— On what «lo you baw your vuluation? A.— On what voHHelR cost. Q. — You w«'re HpfakinR of tho vpwiel wndy for wa with hor wallnfc outfit or wlt>iout rt?A.— Without It. Q. — Ui'ady for wa as an ordinary Bchooner? A. — Yes. Q. — With anchorH and rhainH, and wtils and Htcm boat? A.— Yen. <'roHfi(>xninination by Mr. T^nnHtuK: Q.— How do you hnich that valuation of f4,325? A.— On th<> basiH of |12S a ton. H. — 1125 rcKiBt(>r( a ves.sel she was; at the time there were not ve?y many vessels in the ]»orv. and the merits of every vessel were discussed as she came in. Q. — You do not remember whether it was in 1S7S, 188(». or 1H84 or 1SS5 you were on the "Onward?" A.— No. I cannot say exactly, but 1 know the vessel was in good hands and well kept. Q. — Your testimony was sonu'what based upon the fact that slu' was in good hands? A. — Yes, they did not own any other vessel to undertake any other business. 1 believe. Q. — \Vhen did you last see Mr. ('o(»k. Mr. Sea. and Mi: Warner and Mr. Turpel together outside of this court rooui? A. — I have not seen Mr. Sea pntbably for a month or two un- til this morning. 40 Q. — Did you ever see them together? A. — No. Q.— ]S[eet them together? A.— No. Q. — You never had a meeting with them? A. — I have not been to see Mr. Cook. Q. — Have you been to see Mr. \Varner, Mr. Turpel and Mr. Watson? A. — I met Mr. Turpel, and Mr. Warner, they came in when I was there. Q.— Where? A.— I met them at Mr. Rodwell's. Q. — Anywhere 4'lse besidt'S that? A. — I meet Mr. Turpel every day. (J. — You do not fix your valuation upon anything else be- sides your pers(»nal observation of tlu- ship? A. — No. Q.-^From your obsi-rvation of her at some time prior to ISSfi and whetli^r it was in '7s, '7!> or 'SO. or .de in her. Q. —And the cost of those changes? A. — The cost of some of tl'.'tse changes, of c her sails and rigging, or do yon state that front your belief that Captain McKay would not have anything else on board his boat? A. — I have seen her under sail, bnt I did not criticallv examine her. 20 30 86 1 (\V. Wiilkci-rrosH — IMsciiMwiou — Ki'dirccl.) Q. — You c-anuot siiy wlu'llu-r jcm <'V(>r hsiw lior siiils iM'fore 188(5. Did ,voii «'v»'r h«'(' tlu'iii except when she wan under miil iu the harbour? A. — Xo, sir. (J. — How clom' were ,vou to tier? A. — I have been on board. Q. — How chiHe were you to lier when you saw her Hailt) and 8h'» under wiil? A. — I cannot way tliat. lO Q. — Wt're you on shore and slu' on swi? A. — Very likely, with 8ome other vessels. (i. — Yoti testilied as to her sails and ri}iK'"K from your knowledjie of t'aptain McKay's taking good care of a shiji? A.— Larg»'ly. The Coniniissioner a and continue there as long as ]K)ssible, and to be back some time in the month of Septem- ber at any rate, to he guided in a measure by Captain Mc- Lean — on the schooner "Favourite" at that time — they had agreed to meet in Beliring Sea. Q. — This would be which McLean? A. — Captain Alexand- er McLean, who was then master of the "Favourite" in 18S(». 40 Q. — For what length of time did you provision the vessel? That is when you were at Kyuquot? .\. — Well they had instructions to take everything required to enable the vessel to get back into port, in Victoiia, some tinu- in September. Q. — Some time in September? A. — About the middle, the 10th. or L^tb. about that time. Q. — Now. you are not in a position, I believe, to tell me the exact amount of provisions that went on board that ves- sel? A.— No. Q. — Can you generally tell me what the provisions consist- ed of? \. — Yes. (i.— Of what did they? .\.— Flour, pilot bread, beans, rice. tea. coffee, sugar, ba<'id they have any meats? .\. — Yes. (i.— What kind? A.— Corned beef and pork. Q. — In those days weie tlicre any canned goods? A. — Some canned gpened to be on hand. ' " i Mr. Teters: — I have not got all the vouchers, but I will go (lirough what I have. 50 865 (< 'liiirlfs Sjn-iiig — Din'ct.) The Witness: — The final outfit at Kyuquot does not ap- pear, so I am positively sure that it did not call for anything tliat was put on board, but it would not amount to a large sum in any case. Mr. Diekinson : — I did not know but that when you unload- ed at the trading statiim you would take an inventory. '° The Witness: — That is usually the case, but in some cases not. Since that time I have had a good deal of knocking about and the papers liave got mislaid. Q. — As a matter of fact, have you ever made a calculation as to what it would cost per man to pi-ovision a vessel for the northern voyage — that is for four or five montlis. Have j'ou ever made a calculation as to what it would cost per month? A. — I have not; I should think about If). Q. — You are counting now Indians? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And white men? A. — White men! I don't know, 20 I never made any calculation, or attemi)ted to make any. I was interested only one seas(m. Q. — Xow in addition to the provisions which were put on boai'd — which you instructed to be put on board — for a cer- tain length of voyage, you had on board some guns? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And what was the number? A. — Some ten or twelve I am not sure. Q. — Now, Mr. Spring, will you tell the court, were those an expensive class of gun, or were they not? A. — No, they }0 ^pre an old low grade gun. Q. - -Breech-loaders? A. — Tn some cases, in other cases they were the muzzle loaders, but for this, with reference to the muzzle-loading guns they were good guns of that class. Q. — What did you value the guns each at? A. — Take them all around, |25 would not be too much. Mr. Peters: — I might just state in this connection for the information of the Court, that, in the information laid by Captain Warren at Ottawa, when this gentleman was not 40 there, he put them in at four, as a matter of fact there were twelve. Q. — You say 12 guns, and the inventory shows 12, and they were worth |2.5 each? A. — Yes. Q. — Had they ammunition? A. — Yes. Q. — In sending out an Indian crew do you put as much ammunition aboard as you would for a white crew? A. — Not near as much. Q. — Do you happen to know what quantity? A. — Yes, 50 about two kegs of powder. Q. — That was 50 pounds, was it? A. — That was 50 pounds and about. Q. — You said you had a certain quantity of ammunition, only about 50 ]>ounds — two kegs — did you have a corresjwnd- ing quantity of shot? A. — Oh, a greater quantity of shot than 50 |)ounds. Q. — A corresponding quantity, about 200 pounds? A. — About 200 pounds. Q. — I believe the powder you supplied the Indians with 60 was cheap powder? A. — Yes. Q. — Costing about what? A. — About SOc. or 40c. a pound. Q. — Now I want you to lo(»k at that inventory; we will go through it quickly. (Handing the witness the inventory.) This is the inventory taken by the offl<'er of the cutter, dated August 15th, 1880, received and marked for identification "Kxhibit No. R2, Claim No. .^." I am getting out this list with the object of ascertaining how much of these articles 95 Hi I H 41 'I n ft 111 i m ir i 1 i.r ['' |i I t I \i-U''\- f 10 866 (Cbarles Bpiiiij?— Direct.) you nllege come within tlie value of the ship, and what are extras and do not belong to the valuation of tlie vessel. Tliree anchors, do they belonR to the vessel? A. — Yes. Q. — One adze, two axes — that is extra? A. — Yes. (J. — What are thev worth? A. — The adzes |1, the axes 12.5'. Cj. — Two belts (life), are they extra or do they belong to the ship? A. — That would be i)artly extra and partly ship. Q.— Two blocks, tackle 12 feet?' A.— That is ship. Q. — One brace and bit? A. — That is extra. Q.— What value? A.— fl. Q. — One binnacle light — that i« ship? A. — Yes. Q. — One broom, corn, that is extra? A. — ^Yes. Q.— What is that worth? A.— 50c. Q. — Chronometer (good) — Do you include that with the ship? A. — That is extra. Q. — What do you value it at? A.-|lflO; in that case the 20 chronometer was returned some two years later with some expenses attached to it. Q. — Four compasses — were they extra? A. — Yes. Q. — What were they for? A. — For the use of the canoes; boat compasses. Q.— Their value? A.— fl2; *3 apiece, Q.— Cables— that is ship? A.— Yes. Q. — Fourteen water casks — are they extra or ship? A. — Extra. Q._Worth what? A.~f1.25 each. Q. — Then there is a hali ion of coal, what is that worth? A.— 14. Q. — One clock — is that extra? A. — That is extra. Q.— What is that worth? A.— f5. Q. — One chart. Pacific Ocean? A. — That is extra. Q.— Value what? A.— $5. Q. — One coffee mill — what is that worth? A. — $1. Q. — One flag — does that go with the ship? A. — That woiild be extra. Q._Value what? A.— ft2. Q. — House flag? A.— About flO. Q. — One fog horn — what is that worth? A. — $1. Q. — That was not a patent fog horn? A. — Oh, that would be worth |I25. Q. — When you sav "fog horn," is it a patent arrangement? A — Yes. T was thinlvincr of the short mouth fog horn. In this case she was fitted with a patent one. The Commissioner on the part of the T^nited States: — Is 50 ""t th'>t n horn that the statute reouires; is that an extra connected with sealing; is it not a statutory horn? The witness; — One required for sealing. Direct examination continued by Mr. Peters: Q.— One funnel? A.— fl. Q. — Four globes, lantern? A. — fl for the four. Q.— Two hammers? A.— 12. Q. — Hamborline, one pound? A. — 25c. Q. — Three faUioms of hemp rope, 2}in.? A. — Market value 30 40 60 f4. Q. — One dozen knife sheaths? A. — fS. Q.— One kettle? A.— 50c. Q. — Two swinging lamps? A. — fS for the two. Q. — Now there is 175 fathoms Manila, .SJin., new, good — what is that worth? A. — That wonid come by the pound — I sliniild tliink about 20c. Q. — Yon do not know how many pounds there would be? A,— No; that can be arrived at later on, 20 30 86; (i.'liaik'H 8piiug— Diit'ct.) Q.— Dilto, old, tiiir— what would that be worth? A.— 15. Q. — Tlu'ii then- is a package of nails, whatever they were. Oo you know what Ihey wt^re? A.— No; ordinary nails, I should think. Q.— Kerosene oil— wh:it is thnt wortl? You have it |2: is that right? A.— That is right, (i.— Two gallons of paint oil— you have that |2.50. Is that lO right? A.— That is right. Q.— 25 lbs. oxide iron— is that right, f2? A.— That ia right. Q.— Two oars, 10 ft., |2.5()— is that right ?A.— That is right. Q. — Does the copper pump belong to the ship? A. — That is extra. Q. — What is that pump? A.— It is a pump they put in bar- rels in order to draw water from the casks. Q.— That does not belong to the ship. You value that at what? A <15. Q.— 25 lbs. paint (black), |2.50— is that right? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— One pitcher, water, fl — is that right? A. — That is right. Q. — One plane (jack), |1 — is that right? A. — That is right. Q. — One hand plane, *1 — is that right? A. — That is right. Q. — Palms (sewing), 50c.? A. — That is right. Q. — Two pans, baking, |1? A. — That is right. Q. — Eighteen paddles at 75c. each — is that right? Mr. Warren: — These were included in the value of the canoes. Mr. Peters: — That is so. Direct examination continued by Mr. Peters: Q. — Then you had a patent log — did you include that in the value of the vessel? A. — That is extra. Q.— What is that worth? A.— f20. Q. — Now, turning to the other side — two boat falls on after davits — those are ship? A. — Y'es. Q. — Four hundred seal skins — you claim what for them? A. — f7.50 apiece. Q. — How do you base that? A.- On the price seal were at that time in Victoria. Q. — As a matter of fact, in the claim put in originally it was put in at f7. Since tliat time yon have ascertained that there were sales and that |7.50 was paid? A. — Yes. Q. — Two saucepans — what is tlie value of them? A. — 11. Q. — Three tons of salt — what is the price of salt by the 50 ton? Did you ascertain that by looking at the bills? A. — Yes, sir; I think so. Q. — f 14.50 per ton, was it not? A. — That is right. Q. — Then you have got one mainsail, one foresail, one jib, one staysail and flying jib. Three stoves— are they extra? A. — One extra. Q.— Valued at what? A.— 18. Q. — Four saws — value what? A. — f8. Q. — One screw clamp — what is that worth? A. — 15. Q. — One marlin spilie? A. — fl. 60 Q. — You say that that is not a part of the ship? A. — No, it is not a part of the ship; it is extra. Q.— Three stools, |il.50— is that right? A.— That is ex- tra. Q. — One saw set, ?1 — is that right? A. — That is right. Q. — One scraper, f 1 — is that right? A. — That is right. Q. — One shovel, |1— is that right? A. — That is extra. Q. — Two iron lanks. |41 — is that the actual price you gave for them? A. — It is, 40 m ■■■; V 1:1 drN. ''t'ill ii |M: 10 20 30 40 50 60 • 868 (< 'Im rk's HpriiiK— J-)ii-t'ft.) Q. — Are tbey extra, or do they belong to the ship? A. — Extra. — is that right? A.— Yes, sir. (J — One monkey wren(;h, fl ? A. — Yes. Q. — Were there other artii^les on the ship besides what I have mentioned that you can recall to mind? A. — Yes, there v.'ere certainly quite a nnraber of other articles on board the hhip. Q. — Had you not a barometer on board? A. — Y'es. Q.— What is that worth? A.— fl5. Q. — Were there any other articles that you had on board that you can recall to mind? A. — I do not see any mention here of beef and pork — not mentioned liere at all. Q. — As a matter of fact, I have a schedule of provisions alleged to have been taken from her which I have not yet read, containing reference to bread, flour, molasses, beans and lard. Y'our remark is that you do not see any beef or pork mentioned. As a matter of fact, was there beef and pork on board the vessel when she sailed from Kyuquot? A. — There was; she certainly had, I am positive. Q. — A considerable quantity or a small quantity? A. — A good, fair quantity. Q. — Can you give me any idea in barrels how much beef she had, for instance? A. — Tliere would not be less than three barrels of bei'f. Q. — How much pork? A. — Two barrels of pork. Q. — Any ham? A. — No ham; there was bacon. The orig- inal records have been lost of that load. The goods were jmt aboard, but tliere is no trace of them to be found. Q. — Now. of course, you never saw the vessel afterwards? A.— No. Q. — That was the last von saw of her? A. — That was the last. Q. — Will you kindly tell me who her captain was? A. — Captain Daniel Monro. Q. — Is he dead or alive? A. — Dead. O. — Who was the mate? A. — John Marketich. Q. — Can you tell me the names of any otlier members of 1Ii«> crew? A. — Walter Nightingale and Michael Harkins; 1ho«e names comprise the white crew. Q. — Aficliael Harkins I believe you have here? A. — We have him here. Q. — And Nitfhtingale — do you know anything about where he is? A. — He is an able seaman, but 1 do not know where he is now. Q. — Ts he in Victoria? A. — No. (}. — Is lie on this continent, so far as vou are aware of? A. — Not that I know of. Q. — He never was in vour employ before or since^ Ai"" Never since. 869 (Cliarlt'8 Sprinp— Direct.) Q.— What did yo» iutt'iid to do witli tlu- vohhc'I in 1887 if 3'ou had had hort A.— I certainly would have sent her off sealing to Behring Bea and on the coast. Q.— You owned another vesHel in 188«, the "Favourite"' A. — Yes. Q.— As a matter of fact, did you continue sealing with the "Favourite" in 1887? A.— I did. lO Q— r>id you make any sales in 1887? A.— Yes. Q— Will you kindly tell me what price you obtained for them— I mean the Behring Sea catcli? A.— 17, I think it was — 17 or |7.30, I would not be sure which. Q.~Who did you sell them to? A.— According to the books— I think they would show — the late Morris Moss bought them. Q. — And that can be shown by your books, and I will ex- amine you about that later on? A. — Yes. Q. — Now did you get any notice from the American author- 20 ities at Sitka in reference to your ship — giving her up. Did you get any letter? A. — No, sir. Q. — Or from any person? A. — No, sir. Q. — Did you get any letters from Captain Monro? A. — Yes, several. Q. — Have you got them here? A. — No, I have not. Mr. Peters: — I would like to ask at tliis stage whether my learned friend ia in a position to produce the log of the "On- ward?" ^ Mr. Dickinson: — I do not think we have the log. Direct examination continued by Mr. Peters: Q. — Will you tell me about how long you calculate it yould take a vessel to go from Behring Sea to Victoria — the "On- ward?" A. — Well, everything favttrahle, it wouh' lake on an average from twelve to fourteen days. Q. — That is what you calculate on? A. — Yes. Q. — You said that tlie vessel would have been back about 40 the middle of September? A. — Soniewh«'re about that time; that is, she was provisioned for that. Q. — Did you give any instructions as to when she should actimlly leave Behring Sea? A. — The instructions that I gave — The (.Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Should not you confine yourself to the conversation? If there is any part of the conversation that is omitted, that, according to the proper practice, vou might call his attention 50 to. Q. — Did you, or did yon not. give any actual instructions as to when they should leave Behnng S«'a? A. — No. Q. — You provisioned them up to wliat date? A. — To ar- rive here about the middle of September; to carry them to the middle of September. Q. — There are some other items in connection with your claim. Was the vessel insured when she went ou(? A. — Y^'S. Q. — Do you remember what ccmipany? A. — I think it 60 was the California Company; I do not positively remember the name of the concern. Q. — Do you remember the amount you had paid for insur- ance? A. — f240, there is a voucher that will show for it. Q. — Just examine the voucher for insurance and tell me how much you paid? A. — On examination I paid f260, and got a refund of |20. Q. — So that your payment was |240? A.— |i240. Q. — -What was the insurance on? A. — It was on the hull. m i\ !! 'i ! ■' '§ 1 i 'fc ■ 4 ■ III ■ill ri ? .1 , III !!;i 10 20 870 (rhnrh's Rpiinjj— Dirort.) The r'oiniiiiHHioiKT on tin- piir( of Tier MnjcHt.v: — Do you know the rutcH. The Witnt'HH: — No. I <'oul(l not nay jiiHt now with rffewnce to the rate; it in in the jiolirv. Direct exiuninution «-ontinne(l by Mr. Peters: Q. — Have you got tlic |iolinses of Captain Warren? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you remember the amount you paid? A. — In con- nection with the "Onward"' claim, fl52. <4. — You actually paid that? A. — Yes. Q. — Your share of the expenses in that case — in that case in connection with the seizure? A. — Certainly. Q. — He went there for nearly everybody intei-ested up there? A. — Yes. Q. — Now, bringing you down to this list that was put in by Captain Warren: He puts in "nine canoes and outfit, f445" — You say you did not charge that amount? A. — No. Q. — You only charged the canoes f25 each? A. — Yes. Q. — When Captain Warren went away did you give him a statement of what the canoes were worth? A. — No. Q. — And you were not at Ottawa? A. — No. Q. — He puts down there were four shot guns; I have already explained there were more than that? A. — There were more. Q. — Would there be any difference in the cost of. outfitting a vessel between 1886 and 1887, or would it be about the same? A. — Practically the same. Q. — Now, can von give me the size of these canoes, Mr. Spring? A.— 20 feet to 22 feet. Q. — Those were the ordinary- canoes the Indians used? A. — Yes, the ordinary sealing canoe. Mr. Peters: — I will have to call the witness bye and bye with those letters of Captain Monro's. Mr. Dickinson: — I think, may it please the court, that by reflninc **•; testimony we may shorten the time of the Com- missioners in examining this witness. Mr. Peters: — We put in the "Carolena" case "Exhibit No. 60 I5j" which consisted of a lot of extracts from certain logs of the revenue cutters, and also correspondence; I want to put them in this case, to refer to them in this case, and to add a little more I want an extract of the log of the "Cor- win, an official copy sent me, dated "Sitka, Friday, Septem- ber 10th, 1886, at the joint request of Governor A. P. Swine- ford and Judge Lafayette Dawson, the United States District Court, Alaska, 20 British Indians for Nanaimo, B. C, 9 white men for Port Townsend, W. T., were received on board, they 40 50 if. 872 .1 ! iP I: 'iji'ijiii! 20 (riinrli'H Spring— blri'ct—CroHB.) being pnrt <»f the cih-wh of (lie HeliooniTM "Onward," "San Diego" and "Thornton." left in deMtitiite eirciiinHtances, there being no employment in the region. Tlie United States MarHhal furninhed tlie neceHHary proviHionH. CharleH Spring, reealled bv Mr. IVterH: Q.— .luHt tell me tlie lay the Indians were on on board the 10 "Onward" in l.SSO? A.— »l a siiin each man. Q.— Tliat is 10 any, tliere were two Indians in each canoe, and tiiey would cost yon f2 a sliln witli tlio Indians? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— And the captain was paid how much? A.— 175 per month. Q.— And the mate? A.— 140 per month. Q. — And the other two white men? A.— |3r» a month each. ('roTs-examination hy Mr. Dickinson: Q.—'So lay for the white men? A. — No. Q. — Nor tlte captain nor tlie mate? A — No. Q. — Was there any lay for any of these men? A. — No, only wages. Q. — That was your way of doing business at that time? A. —Yes. Q. — It has just occurred to me that there was one item neglected. There is a matter of |80 in cash that does not appear there — what is that? A. — It is the money that the 30 captain himself had, and intended to deposit over to me. afterwards taken away. Q. — That will appear by his correspondence? A. — Yes. Q. — Can you tell me the octual amount you advanced to your crew? Have you got a voucher for it? A. — Yes, I think so. Q. — You can find out and tell me when you come back? .\. — Yea, the books will show it. The following portion of tlie record of December .10th is ^o printed now, by consent of counsel, for convenience. Mr. Peters: — If the Oonimissionera will allow me. I would like to put formally in evidence a copy of the register of the ship "Onward," which I omitted to put in, and which the Commissioners suggested I should jiut in. Received and marked Exhibit m (O.B.) Claim No. 3. The Commissioners then rose at 1 p.m. 50 \. \ 60 Oommissioners under the Oonvention of February 8, 1896, between Great Britain and the United States of America. Chambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 28, 1896. At 10.30 a.m. the Commissioners took their seats. Direct examination of Mr. Spring continued by Mr. Peters: Q. — Mr. Spring, you made a statement the other day that Mr. Clark, the lawyer at Sitka, had not drawn on you for that ?500? A.— Yes, sir. Q. — As a fact, did he draw on you; was that statement correct or was it not? A. — It was not correct. Q. — Did he draw on you? A. — Yes. 30 873 K'lmrlfM KpfiiiK — IMn-f-t.) Q.— Hut (lid you pa.v tin? diafl? A.— No. Q. — And tluit hud pUHHed from your mind? A. — That had |HiHHi>d from my mind ut tlic time. y. — Now you nmdu u Hlatfmt'iit the other day thn* . 'ilso want to ask you about, that you had not r»'ci'iv«'d any l<>tt«'r, or did not rMiu*mb«'r of receiving any l«'ttt'r. from United Htat<>8 authoriticK about the releaw of your vesm'!. Have lo you Hince lool captain also. Q. — Were the seamen? A.— Up to the time of seiv.iire. Q.— .\nd the Indians, what were they jmid? A.— They were paid for all the skins they had caught up to the time of seizure. Q.— Whether seized or not? Some skins were not seized? A. — That is right. Q.— Did you pay them on the skins that were seized as well as those not seized? A.— Yes. on all the skins, seized and not seized. Q._So that, so far as you are concerned, you paid every- body ? A . — E very body. ^ Q.— I want to ask you another thing in addition to the ar- ticles you mentioned the other day as being on board the ship. Had you any nautical instruments on board tin ship A. — There were. Q.—W^ere they returned to you? A —Not all of them. Q.— WHiat nautical instrnnients were they? A. — The sex- tant was not returned. Q.-W^hat was the value of it? A.— f2.^, I think it was. SO (I '> ^^''V [I •:!. I k piPKi.1 m ■)(i n lO 20 30 874 (Olinrlos Spring — Dircrt — Cross.) Q. — Vou r«»»'pi'rcd the other day to a conMidernble quantity of inanila rope. That was mentioned in tlie inventory. Have yon since looked at the inventory to see what that nianila rope cost? Have you looked at the vouchers? A. — I exam- ined the vouchers the other day, and from wliat I could make out it certainly must apply to the same as that whicli is shown in the inventory. Q. — That is voucher No. 36, I think. Just look at it and see? A. — (Examining) — Yes. 170 pounds of 2J manila, |.3().G0. Q. — It is sold by the pound, is it? A. — It is usually charged by weight, but in this case it seems to be carried out by the quantity. Q. — What was the price of skius in 1887 that you received? A.-I7. Q, — Was that the .market price, or what you got? A. — That is the best price that I got. Q. — You got them from what ship? A. — The "Favourite." Q.— In 1887? A.— In 1887. Q. — Then you sold to whom? A. — To Morris Moss. Q. — What did you realize for the Pehriug Sea catch? A. -»7. Q. — Did you sell any at a less price than f7 in 1887? A.— Yes, I did. Q. — For what price? A. — For |5. Q. — That was the spring catch? A. — That was later on in the same year. Late in the season, a considerable time after all the schooners had arrived in, quite a few skins had arrived here, and mine being the last, of course, everybody had been supplied. Q. — In the early part of the season what time did you sell for $7? A. — To the middle of September, I think. Q. — Did you have any coast catch that year? A. — Yes. Q.— Did you sell that? A.— Yes. Q. — When? A. — During the spring. Q. — Do you remember the price of the coast catch? 4° Mr. Dickinson :— Spring of 1888? Witness:— Spring of 1887. That would average about Ifi. Q. — Now, when you say average, does that include the price for all sizes, down to gray pups and all? A. — Yes. Q. — What time of the year did you sell yor.i' coast catch? A. — During the mouth oi ApriT; during tife lafter part of April and beginning of May. Q. — Tliere is no trouble in getting at what you paid the In- 50 dians. Were tliey paid their full lay? A. — Full. Q. — That is to say, each skin cost you |2? A. — Yes, by the Indians. Q. — Cross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — I think you said in your direct examination the other day, Mr. Spring, that you owned part of the canoes and the In- dians ownev' 1 part, because you liad a lien on the canoes by reason of advances made. Did you state that? A. — ' said so, yes. Q. — The advance that you made to the Indians, however, "° is a part of the money which you charged as paid to them, is it not? A. — In some cases. Q. — So, if you recover for the value of the canoes, so far as your lien is concern<>d and the money which yon claimed to pay the Indians you would be recovering the same money twice in some instantes? A. — In some instances, but in such a case as that the Indians would be charged. Q. — What do you mean by that? A. — When I say the Indians, I mean the Indian hunters would be charged* that T'fi lO 20 875 (Charles Iripring — Cross.) would be deducted, auu iu other oases it was a direct pur- chase from the Indian that owned the canoe in order to make the complement to send out. Q. — That was in the case where you directly purchased the canoe? A. — Yes. Q. — How many canoes did you directly purchase? A. — 1 should think some three or four. Q. — And the others you only had a lien upon? A. — A lien upon some and othera again they owned. Q. — You only purchased three or four of the canoes your- self? A. — Yes, about that number. Q. — The lien which you claim upon them constituted a part of their wages which they got in the end? A. — I should think so. I think likely it would be so. Q. — What did you pay for those three or four canoes that you did own? A. — Various prices. Size and age had a good deal to do with it. Q. — Something about what they cost; we do not care for a dollar. A.— Vrom |10 to fl2. Q. — Would that Include the outfit of the canoes, the pad- dles? A.— Not at all. Q. — The canoe naked would cost between flO and fl2? A. — That is just the bare canoe. Q. — And those canoes were about 20 to 22 feet long? A. — About that. In this particular case, of course, I was obliged to take what canoes I could get. At that stage of the business we were commencing to think about going to 30 Behring Seji, and that season was about the first outside of the "Favourite" of any vessel that had gone up to Behring Sea in my case. Q. — Where did you buy those canoes? A. — At a place called Jackleslet — Battle Bay. Q. — How far is it from Kyuquot? A. — About 14 or 15 miles. Q. — And about how far from Ciayoquot Sound? A. — A Tittle bit over 100 miles. Q. — North or south? A. — North. Q. — You have examined the? inventory, Mr. Spring, which purports to have been made by the officers of the cutter that seized the "Onward?" A. — Yes. Q. — Now. with the exception of the barrels of pork and comed beef, do you know of any provisions which were aboai-d the "Onward" when she was seized other than those that ar.^ inventoried here? A. — Well, I couldn't say direct- ly myself, I would have to dejH'nd on other jwople; the cap- tain had his instructions to take his .nitflt from the store in that case. Q. — You cannot tell from your own personal knowledge? A. — No, I wouldn't ventui-e to state, because I don't know. Evei-j'thing was put on that was reciuired. Q. — You weiv asked what it <'08t to sustain a white man for a month. You said you never had had any experience. Did vou never have a white crew out? A. — Yes. Q.— What year? A.— 18S7. Q.— What boat? A.— Tlie "Favourite." Q. — You were on the loal yourself, were you not? A. — Part of the season. Q. — In lieliring Sea yourself? A. — Not in Behring Sea. Q. — I tliongnt that where you made a copy of the log of the "Favourite," in Behring Sea? A. — No, it was the following year, 18HS. Q. — Yon were on the "Favourite," however, when she was outf.ted in 1SH7? A. — The beginning of the season, the spring season. 40 50 60 Hi ■'l! ill .1 i::v fir ^ hi . I 1 hi:, 1). ; 1; ill;- I : : '-'iw: w\m 876 (Cliai'les Spring — Croas.) Q. — Do you know what it cost for a white man that year? A. — No, I do not. Q. — Have you no idea? A. — I never went into it at all; I just simply fitted out that season, in oi-der to gratify a cer- tain wish of my own, in order to get the best of some of the Indian hunters, and after that was gratified I went on with Indians again. 10 Q- — Would not your books show the total cost of getting the "Favourite" ready for the voyage of 1887? A. — Yes, certainly, but I never went into that examination. Q. — You could tell us how much per man it cost in 1887 by an inspection of your books? A. — I think so. Q. — Win you do that, Mr. Spring? A. — Yes, certainly. Q. — Captain McLean was over at Kyucjuot when the "Fa- vourite" and "Onward" started for Behring Sea? A. — Yes. Q. — And you went up from Victoria on the "Favourite" with Captain Alexander McLean up to Kyuquot? A. — Not 20 all the way, no. Q. — Part of the way? A. — Part of the way, yes. Q. — You never had been in Behring Sea before tliat time, had you, Mr. Spring, sealing? A. — No. Q. — And you entrusted to Captain Aleyint ?r :,,'r~iean the management of the "Favourite" and ''O.iwa:; ^ Behring Sea? A. — Yes, his advice would be f oH . . •«'', Q. — It would be followed by the capt,;ii! of the "Onward" as to when she would leave the sea? A. — I'es. Q. — And, as a matter of fact, you know that the "Onward" 30 kept in the company of the "Favourite" up to the time she was seized? A. — I think it is likely; I don't know exactly. Q. — Do you know tliat that is the'report of the captain of the "Onward?" A. — They were in company at times; I don't know whether it means from day to day or not. Q. — You do not know what time the season ended in Behr- in Sea in 1886, nor what time it was advisable to leave the Sea? A. — No, only from what I would be able to find out from other experienced men. Q. — So that you left that matter to Captain McLean? 4° A. — Yes, after giving my personal instructions. Q. — You did not give any letter of instructions to those captains, did you? A. — No, I wasn't able to at that time, because I didn't know I would succeed in getting the vckmI off, and after I did it had to be verbally. Q. — You stated you expected the boats back here fi'«>n \ho 10th to the 15th of September, I believe? A.- -Outfit 'd :oi- that time; somewhere in that neighborhood. Q. — You placed a value of |1.'.5 on each of those guia. Yon do not mean that that was the real worth of the gun» at that time? Or was that the cost of guns of that style and quality? A. — Well, that is the ])rice that those guns wouliT be valued at at that time. Q. — Those particular guns? A. — Take it all through for the people that owned those guns, of course those guns are not all mine — Q. — We want to kn<»w all about that: How many of those guns do you clain.? A. — I claim them all. Mr. Peters: — I submit at this point that it mattei ot to 60 whom those gnus belong, we have a right to rt< '• r for them. My contention is that it matters not to wh..;.. :'aid for them. Mr. Dickinson: — If tin < nitcd C'^nn 's are liable, they want to imy for the guns, nnl' (.^ R(/!ne of th\n property belongs to peo]>le who cannot b»> paid under Ir convention. All we want are the facts. SO 8/7 (Charle.s Spring — CroHS.) Q. — How many of the >;uns are yours, Mr. Spring? A. — Oh, about six or seven; somewhere about there; had twelve altogether. Q. — And to whom did the others belong? A. — They be- longed to Indians and white men. Q. — To the hunters aboard the boat? A. — Some of the hunters and some of the crew, lo Q- — You have put in a claim heretofore against the United States Government, in which you stated that the "Onward" took 400 skins, and you deducted those four hundred skins from an estimated catch for the season, and claimed from the United States Oovemment the balance. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — ilr. Warren, that evidently is in writing. The proper course is to show him the claim. Mr. Warren: — I am asking him if he has put in such a claim. 20 Witness: — Yes. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — If you are going into the contents of it, the proper course is to show it to him. The Commissioners want to know with accuracy what it is if you are going to refer to it at all. The better way is to pursue the usual course, then we will know where we are. By Mr. Warren: — Q. — I refer to the copy of affidavit of Mr. Spring found on page «0, Vol. 5, of the American Re- print. Now. Mr. Spring, you know that the "Onward" took 3° more than 400 skins in Behring Sea that year, do you not? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — And you have not mentioned that in the affidavit nor in your testimony here, have you? A. — I really don't know. Q. — How many more did the "Onward" take in Behring Sea than the 400? A. — The amount that was transferred to the "Favourite." Q. — How many was that? A. — 507 or 508. I am not sure. Q.— That makes 007 skins that the "Onward" took in Beh- 40 ring Sea in IHWJ instead of 400, does it not? A. — Yes. Q. — Now that would make a difference in your claim — a considerable differenc«>? A. — Oh, yes, certainly it would. (J. — And the 507 skins that w«-r'e transferred from TRe "Onward" to the "Favourite" and sent down to Victoria, you had the benefit of, did you not? A. — Yes. Q. — And they were ail caught in Behring Sea? , A. — Yes. (J. — Do you remember now whether you had «'ight or nine canoes in the sea? A. — I don't remember positively, but I believe nine. 5° Q. — Did she have a stem boat? A. — She must have had a stem boat. Q. — Do you know whether she did or not? A. — I do not; she must have had; I think she did. I didn't see it on the Inventory at all. Q. — What month was it that you were over to Kyuquot^ when the "Onward" started for Behring Sea? A. — June, I think. Q. — About what time in June? A. — It would be some 60 ♦inif about the beginning of June; the latter end of May or the beginning of June; yes, beginning of June. y. — How many days were the "Favourite" and "Onward" in Kyuquot? A. — Three or four days, I think. Q. — And they sailed direct for Behring Sea; they did not seal on the way up, did th«'y? A. — I don't know; I never htiird any rejwrt to the effect of sealing on the way up. (i. — They did not stait with the intention of sealing on the way up? A.— Not in those days; it wasq't likely; fhey ■ ! Ill' : j '!:§!: 3«5 878 (Charles 8pi-iug — Ciobh.) would call in somewhere for water, and then go to Bchring Sea. Q.— By they, I mean the "Onward?" A.— Yes. Q.— You stated that if you had had the "Onward" in 1887 that you would have sent her to Behriug 8ea, and told about the bright outlook in 1886 for sealing siTiooners. Did you not have a sealing schooner here in the harbor of Victoria ,Q in 1886 doing nothing? A. — I didn't quite catch the ques- tion. Q. — Did you not have a scaling schooner here in the har- bor of Victoria in 1886? A.— No. Q. — Where was the "Kate?" A. — She was employed seal- ing, and after sealing she would be commissioned to attend to the trading business on the coast. Q. — She was not emploj'ed in sealing in Behring Sea? A. — No, I didn't think it was necessary to send hei*at that time; in fact, I don't think I could have done so for two reasons: I 20 required her presence here on the coast; I should have had one vessel, at least. I sent off what I could and retained one; that was the "Kate," for business on the coast. Q.^Did you not try to get a crew for the "Kate" to go Into Behring Sea in 1886? A.— I did not. Q. — Who was it testified here the other day that yon could not get a crew for her? A. — Whoever did I don't know; they had no right to do so, 1 don't think. Q. — That wa.s not so? A. — No, I had her on the coast all right enough; T would not send her to Behring Sea because I needed her here to attend to freighting and trading. Q. — You said there were two reasons. What is the other? A. — Well, the probability of not being able to get a crew to send her to Behring Sea with; that is the only reason. Q. — You could have got a little boat here that was suitable to make trips over to your trading post, could you not, at a fair charter value, in 18S6? A. — I don't think so. No, not to answer the purposes; not practical. Q.— What was the tonnage of the "Kate?" A.— 61 tons, I 40 think. Q. — What boat did you send over to the trading posts in 1887? A.— In 1887 the "Kate" was in Behring Sea. Q._So was the "Favourite?" A.— Yes. Q. — What boat did you send over to the trading posts? A. — I had made arrangements at the beginning of the season to see that every phice was properly supplied before these vessels all left the coast; so you see it was covered in that wav. Q.— So if you had wanted the "Kate" in Behring Sea in 1886 you could have made the same arrangement in 1886? A. — We were not altogether sure about the business at that time: it was only after 1S86 that we became positive that Behring Sea was a place worth while looking after. Q.— Did you take the "Kate" over on the coast loaded heav- ilv on these trips in 1886? A.— Yes, always. Q.—And you wanted « boat of large carrying capacity? A. —Yes, any boat of her size would be sufficient. Q._The "Onward" was not large enough? A.— Oh, yes; ^ she could have done it. Q._Whv did voH not send the large boat to Behring Sea in 1886 and keep" the "Onward" down here? A.— The "Kate" was not altogether so well adapted, we thought at that time, but since that time we have put her in perfect trim. Q. — Mr. Spring, you have placed a value upon the "On- ward" in the ye.ir 1886, and I believe the question was asked vou .what do you consider her worth to you under the cir- cumstances at that time, and whether or not you would have 20 879 (Charles Spring — Ci-uhh.) sold her for |4,il00. Did you intend to testify to the market value of the "Onward" in 188C? A.— No, no; just what she was worth to myself engaged in that business, having noth- ing to bear on tlie market whatever. Q.— You stated that the value of skins in 1886 was |7.50. Have you heretofore placed the value upon skins in 1886 at f7? A. — Yes, it was mentioned, |7. lO Q— Why do you say |7.30 now? A.— Well, that was made in error by myself. I should not have done so. I am not positive whether 17.50 would be right or not, but |7 is. Q — Well, had you not better have it f7 instead of 17.50 if you are positive f7 is right and are not positive about the 17.50? A.— I was intending to let that matter stand in or- der to establish the point. Q. — I do not exactly catch your meaning. A. — That was something I intended to allow to stand until we could estab- lish it by the market price. T had an idea that f7.50 was the proper price to charge, therefore I put it in that form, although |7 was asked for according to the claims. Q. — Well. $7 was the market value, was it, of skins in 1886? A. — I thought so at the time, but since then I have been led to believe that f7.50 was the price. Whatever we find it to be. it will have to be that. Mr. Peters: — It has already been proved that skins sold at $7.50 that year. 30 Q.— Who sold the skins of the "Onward" in the year 1886? A. — The skins from the "Onward," do you mean? Q. — Yes; the 507 skins that came down here? A. — Gapt. Alexander McLean, I believe. Q. — And he paid the lay of the Indians out of the proceeds of the sale, did he not? A.— Yes, I think so; they seemed to be satisfied so far as the skins were concerned. ? Q.— That is the Indians off the "Onward?" A.— Yes. Q.— I believe William Spring was alive in 1885. was he not? A.— No. ^° Q.— Was Mr. Francis ever in business with yon? A.— Yes. Q. — And McLean. Francis and you were in business to- gether in 1885? A.— Yes. Q. — That is Captain Alexander McEean? A. — Yes. Q. — And what was Mr. Francis' name? A. — Peter. Q. — And yours is Charles Spring? A. — Yes. Q. — And you were partners? A. — Yes. Q. — And the "Onward" was one of the ve«^sels in that year 50 which was owned by this partnership? A. — Yes. Q.— Will you tell the Court at what valuation the "On- ward" was put into the partnership arrangement in the year 1885? Mr. Peters: — As it is all in writing, I would suggest that you would speak from your book? A. — As I was going to say, I think it would be better to allow the books to speak for themselves. 60 Q. — Have yon your book here? A. — Yes. Q. — I have not asked for the books; you can tell the fig- ures. A. — f2200 at that time, taking into consideration — Q. — Wait a moment: you have answered the question. At what time in 1885 was that? A.— That was In '84; that is when I took her over; I put her in at the valuation (o the concern, at the same price as I took her over from the firm of William Spring & Co. r: if;- ' r :'ii i ; m' I ill : Ml ilij mil. I liijj I : i:! I, nti!i ' 880 (Charles Spriug — Cross.) Q. — I usked you about 1885, and you have been talking about 1884? A. — It was in '84 that she was taken over. Q. — 1884 that she was valued for the purposes of the part- nership of Alexander McLean, Pett'r Francis and Charles SpriuB at |2200? A.— Yes. Q. — You say you took her over from the estate of William Sjirinp; wliat year did you tak«' her? A. — 1884. 10 Q.— Just prior to the time the other partnership was form- ed? A.— Yes. Q. — You were one of the trustees of the estate of your father, were you, and an- executor? A. — Yes. Q. — And you sold the "Onward" to yourself? A. — Yes. Q. — To anyone else, or to yourself alone? A. — Well, at that time it could not be altogether myself, because it was just joining in; and tliree of us were taking the late concern over. Q. — When you bought the "Onward" from tlie estate of 20 your father, you bought for the purpose of going into +'"i8 partnership, which was immediately thereafter formed; is that the idea? A. — It turned out iiractically so; but wheth- er it would have been so or not, whether other parties would have come in or not, I would have taken her over, anyway. Q. — Who paid tlie estate of your fatlier for the "Onward," vou, or vou and these two men? A. — The concern, C. Spring & Co. Q. — The concern of C Spring & Co., was made up of Alex- ander McLean, Peter Francis and yourself? A. — Yes. Q. — Then it practically amounts to this, that that partner ship purchased the "Onward" from the estate of your father? A.— Yes. Q. — And you were the trustee of your father's estate? A. — One of them. Q. — And you negotiated this sale of the "Onward?" A. — Not directly; it was negotiated by me through Mr. Lubbe. Q. — Then you and Air. Lubbe liandled the sale? A. — Yes. Q.— Mr. Theodore Lubbe? A.— Yes. 40 Q- — And he is the gentleman who was on the stand the other day? A. — Yes. Q. — And he was vour co-executor and co-trustee, was he not? A.— No. Q. — Was he not one of the trustees of your father's es- tate? A. — No, he was one of the — Q.— One of the what? A.— One of the firm of William Spring. Q. — He was in business with your father at the time of your father's death? A. — Yes. 30 5-5 60 Q. — Was there an appraisement made upon the property of your father after his death? A. — Yes, I tliink so; I would not be sure. Q. — 1 suppose that appvaisement would be filed in the Court wliere your father s estate was probated? A. — Very likely. Q. — That is the practice here, is it not? A. — Yes. Q. — Do you know where it' is yourself? A — .Well, the books of William Si)ring & Co. would show that; I wouldn't say positively that the books liad been closed at that date or not. Q. — Who was in partnership with your father at the time of his death, Mr. Theodore Lubbe and who else? A. — Peter Francis. Q. — .\nd tliat partnership owned the "Opward?" A. — ■ Yes. 88i lo 30 30 40 50 60 (Cliarles Siiriiig — Cross.) Q. — Ro that whi'n this sale wa«> made to yourself or to the partiuTBhip of C. Spring & Co., composed of Alexander Mc- Lean, Peter Francis and yourself, Mr. Tlieodore Lubbe con- sented to a sale of the "Onward'" at |2200? A.— Yes. Q. — So it was not altogether a sale made by you and your co-executors and cotrustees, representing the estate of Will- iam Spring, but was a sale by partnership, one member of was the estate of your father? A. — Yes, the death of William Spring caused the winding up of the old concern. Q. — When did Peter Francis go out of the firm of C. Spring & Co.? A. — I don't remember exactly the date. Q.— What year? A.— 1885, I think; some time in 1885. Q. — What name did the partnership go by after that? A. — C. Spring & Co. Q. — Did you take in any new partners to take the place of Mr. Francis? A. — No. Q.— Francis died? A.— Yes. Q. — Then there was just yourself and Alexander McLean after the death of Mr. Francis? A. — That was all. Q.— You stated that the "Onward" wn valued at |2,200. Are you perfectly certain that it was f2,200? A. — Yes. Q. — You have looked at it recently so as to refresh your recollection? A. — Yes. Q. — When was that partnership between you and Alexan- der McLean dissolved Anally? A. — At the end of the season of 1886. Q._What month in 1886? A.— December, I think. Q. — And you retained your interest, whatever it was, in the partnership, in the claim of the "Onward" against the United States Government? A.— Yes. Q. — And Alexander McLean retained whatever his interest was in the partnership of C. Spring & Co. in the claim against the United States Government? A.—Yes. Q_.When yon were stating that the valuation put upon the "Onward" was J|i2,200. I believe you desired to make some explanation. Now tell the Commissioners what yon wished to say. A. — At the time the transfer was made, when I took the vessel over, the matter was considered in this respect, that I, being connected in the family, was in a position to take the vessels over and the property at a lower rate than what anybody else would have been able to take it over, put- ting her' in at |I2,2(M». A higher figure than that would have been asked for her if it had been anybody outside of the con- ccrn. Q —Theodore Lubbe only received his interest at |2,200, did he? A.—Yes, he was patisfled to let it go through my connections; only in that way. Q_What was his interest in the partnership of Willmm SpTing & Co.? A.— One-third. This he did not consider a verv serious point with him. Q _iie was one-third owner of the "Onward?" A.—Yes. Q.— And was Peter Francis a one-third owner? A.— \es. Q.— And the estate of your father owned the other third.' ■V — ^^f*s ' Q _So that, so far as your connection with the estate of vour father was concerned, that would only refer to one- third of the boat, while two-thirds of the boat was owned by men who were in existence? A.—Yes. Q_You have testilied that you were a trustee of your father's estate. You do not mean to say that you could have sold that boat to somebody else rather than yourself for more monev, and vou. as a trustee of your father's estate, did not do that? A.— T don't know. I haven't any doubt if we had held it longer— ■ ! ! t 30 40 50 60 882 (Cliai-lt's Hpriiig — Ci-oms.) Q. — Wait a moment. I asked you whether you had any A.— No; I did 20 offers from anybody else at a higher price? not loolf for any. Q.— There hm been some question here about the various sales of the schooner "Favourite," and as to whether or not a valuation was placed on her in 18Sfi. Now Captain Alex- ander McLean did not retain — 10 Mr. Peters: — I do not know whether we ought to go into the valuation of the "Favourite" in this case. Mr. Warren: — I am going to prove the fact; going to ask what it was — the valuation placed upon the property. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — You want to show that tliat was the year in which the valuation was placed to which Mr. McLean referred? Mr. Warren: — Yes. Mr. Peters:— I do not see what that has got to do with this case. My learned friend does not state the thing correctly. The question was asked, was there a sale of her in 1886? A valuation and sale are two different things. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I supposed the whole thing was agreed on at the time and un- derstood among counsel, and that would end it. It was stated on one side that the sale he referred to in 1886 was with reference to adjusting partnership matters, and it was not objected to on tlie other side. That would seem to be the end of ii. Mr. Warren: — That is exactly as we understood it. If it is understood that way by the other side, we rest the matter. Mr. Peters: — I stated fully what I then understood, and stated it distinctly, and I do not see what we want it down here again for. By Mr. Warren: Q. — The "Favourite" was concerned in this dissolution of December, 1886, that you have spoken of, was she not, Mr. Spring? A. — Yes. The Commissioner on the part of flie United States: — 1 do not see how that settles it, Mr. Warren. Mr. Warren: — He states the partnership was dissolved in December, 188f», and the value of thel "Favourite ' was in- volved in that dissolution. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — As I understand it, there may be a serious question here. I un- derstood him to say that Captain McLean retained his inter- est, and he retained his interest. Mr. Warren: — The last question I asked him was, was the "Favourite" involved in that, and he said yes. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — But he does not say (hat there wns any violation of the "Favour- ite." By Mr. Warren:— Q. — AVas the valuation of the "Favour- ite" In 1886 flxed, or was there a valuation fixed upon the "Favourite" in this dissolution which took place in Decem- ber, 1886 between you and Alexander McLean? A. — There was a valuation put on. Q. — Who canie down here from Sitka and notified you that the "Onward" had been seized? A. — Previous to anvoQC :tt 883 (Charlt's Spring — (^nms.) coming down to inform mo of the fact, I had received a letter from Captain Munro, lier master. Q. — Have you that letter? A. — Yes. Q. — Was there anybody down here to see you personally about the matter of the seizure? A. — Ye» Q.— Who? A.— Clark. Q. — What time? A. — He had been down here on one or o two occasions before last winter. But he had never been able to meet me — positively last winter. Q. — I am not asking you about a thing so recent as that. Was there anyone here in 1886? A. — Oh, no; nobody out- side of the captain. Q. — You knew that Mr. Clark was retained to represent you at Hitka, did you not? A. — Yes. Q. — When did you first know that? A. — By the captain's letter. Q. — Are you able tc state the date of the letter? A. — No. Mr. Peters: — I said I was going to put all the letters in. Mr. Warren: — I want the date of that letter. Mr. Peters: — It does not appear to have any date. By Mr. Warren: — Q. — Do you know the' date yon received the first letter from Captain Munro? A. — No, I haven't the remotest idea of the date. 20 30 40 Mr. Peters: — It is evidently written shortly after the seiz- ure. By Mr. Warren: — Q. — He wrote you a letter which bears date Sitka, Alaska, September 15, ISSO, which I believe is the second letter. Do you know how long after the receipt of the first letter before you received the second one? A. — No. I couldn't say. Q. — But you did receive this letter, which is dated Septem- ber 3. at Sitka ? A. — Yes, I received it. Q. — You put an answer in at Sitka, in the proceedings, did you not? A. — I wrote an answer to the Captain's let- ter Q. — No; an answer to the libel filed against — Mr. Peters: — That will all appear by ,he record which I intend to put in. Witness: — I think so; I don't exactly remember the order in which business was done. 5C Q. — I am not trying to prove the record by you, I simply want to know whether you advised or instructed an answer to be put in? A. — Yes, I thiak there must have been. Q. — That does not answer my question. Did you instruct the captain, or lawyer or anybody representing you to have an answer filed? A. — Captain Munro had already attended to all that, and I depended on him as a competent man to look after it. He had already informed me by a letter, which you will see there, that he had looked after the business.. ^ Therefore I allowed it to rest, and I depended on him to man- age it for me. Q. — Did he inform you that Mr. Clark was representing your interests there? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you object to Mr. Clark representing you as un attorney? A. — I think there was some objection at the time, but I cannot bring it to mind. But finally I concluded tQ let him go on. !! ■ ■'' i !! 'H'lil 'tut' i'V i'i 30 I , 884 (Clitirh'H Spring — ( 'ross.) Q. — You agret'd to Mr. Clark nt'tinj? as your attorney up there? A.— Yes. (i. — And not referring to the caHe of the "Onwai-d," I am asking now, how long did Mr. Clark continue to represent you? A. — All along. Q. — So that whatever orders were given in the ease of the "Onward," at wliatever stage, he would still be your attorney? 10 A. — Yes, in that matter. Q.— And he liv»'d at Sitka, did he not? A.— I believe so. Q. — He was not an attorney sent from here? A. — Not nt that time. Q. — How long did he continue to live in Sitka after the date of the seizure of the "Onward?" A. — 1 don't know. Q. — Yon know something about it? A. — No, 1 haven't any idea at all. Q. — You say that he doesn't live down here now, or doesn't live at Sitka now? A. — 1 don't know; he has been living in 2° Victoria, that T know, but how long 1 don't know. He has been living bet\\een liere and there. Q. — Mr. Clark did not live in Victoria, at least, until after the year ISSS, T believe? A.— That is right; not until after. Q. — So that, so far as you know, he was in Sitka during the period from the seizure of the "Onward" up to tlie end of the year 188S? A. — I should think so; yes, sir. Q. — And did you receive letters from Mr. Clark with refer- ence to the seizure of the "Onward" from time to time? A. —Yes. 0.— Prom Sitka? A.— From Sitka. Q. — Have vou anv of those letters from Mr. Clark? A. — Yes. Q.— This partnersliip of C. Spring & Co. durintr the life of Peter Francis, when tliere were three of you in the tirm, was enirasred in the business conducted ov«t on the west coa«t, a'so, was it not? A. — Yes, sir; that was the business besides the sealing. Q. — So that the partnership of C. Spring & Co. conducted 40 the business at the trading stations along the west coast as well as the sending out of these vessels engaged in sealing? A. — Yes. sir. O. — And that remained so during the year 1886, after the death of Peter Francis? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— Do you know tl>e date of Mr. Francis' death? A. — Not rmsitively just now. 1 could arrive nt it all right enough. It should be some time along. T tliink. in June or .Tulv. It may have been May; T don't know, 18S5. . 0. — Von stated that yon ]»aid Mr. Marketich for his ser- vices UP to tlie time that he arrived at Victoria? A. — Yes. Q. — You made an affidavit. Mr. Sprinnr. and there must be .'•n error in it. I wisli yon won'd explain it. This affidavit I referred to once before pajre fiO. volume .5. of tho American rer>rint. In reference to the "Onward." von stated f'at she ciirried a crew of 20 men. and estimated wnfes due to the in;ister ;Mid men for four niontlis f'oui <'•" 1"U\ fistv of .Tmio to the time of her return to Victoria at J»7.."0n. You did not mean that, did yon. "r was that a misprint? Mr. Dickinson: — Make your own statement of tliat, Mr. Spring; look it over yourself. A.— (Examining)— That must be a misprint. Mr. Dickinson:— You remember what yon stated at that time? A. — T haven't any idea just now, Bv Mr. Warren; ^ yi- lO 20 30 SS5 (Phnrh'H Hprini; — ( 'ro«H — R«'-dmMt.) Q. — In that aflidiivit, Sir. Hpring, will you look at it and tell the CommiHHioners whether von did n*»t plat-e the value I skins in 1S8« at |7? A.— f7. Mr. Dickinson: — L«'t it be understood that we do not offer this statement ns to the f 7.500 to reflect at all upon the wit- ness. We are conlident, after listening; to the witness on this stand, that it is a mistake rather than a mis-statement of his. Mr. Peters:— I will point out to the Court that, after all, that statement may really be perfectly explainable, because he was then estimating, according to tliat very affidavit, that they would catch something like .3,000 seals; and if they caught 3,000 seals it would appear at once that there would be 10,000 coming to the hunters. That fs only a calculation. 1 think that all reference to this had better go out of the notes. Mr. Dickinson: — Except this, at some future time — we will be fair about it — this might be discovered, and if not explain- ed it might reflect upon the witness. Mr. Peters: — We understand it now. Mr. Diskinson: — But this record goes to others. Mr. Warren:— With the understanding, Mr. Spring, that you will look up your books pertaining to the "Favourite" for the year ISS7, and ascertain for the Commissioners the price per white man for sustaining him a month, I believe that is all. Re-direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — You were asked as to the value of skins in 1886, and you said you put them down at $7.50 in your evidence here the other day. As u nuitter of fact, you originally put them down at |7, I believe? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you hear of a sale afterwards at a higher price? A. — I heard something to influence me and cause me to make |7.50 the amount. Q. — Then, to come down to the practical question, ; iu ac- tually heard that Mr. Munsie had sold for that amount. A. —Yes. Q. — And you raised your claim on account of hearing of that sale? A. — Yes. Q. — So that what you claim is that you want to get the iiighest price, whatever it is? A. — Yes. Q. — You got a letter from Captain Munro, which is dated September .'{rd, ISSCi, and this is the letter you got from him, is it not? (Handing witness letter 1 This is his writing? A. — (Examiningi — That is his writi'ir Mr. Peters: — I want to put this letter in evidence. It is dated at Sitka, September 3rd. 1880, and reads as follows: "Dear Sir: Y'our letters of 22nd and 2;?iil ult. duly received and contents very carefully noted. When I wrote you from 60 Ounalaska I did not think affairs was going to take such a serious turn. Our vessels was dismantled, tlie skins taken on shore in charge of the Commercial Company. The Indians and Frenchey and the two boys were sent here on the schoon- er "San Diego." I was taken here on the cutter that cap- tured us. We were taken asltore here in charge of the mar- shal and marched to the court house to be arraigned before the judge and the district attorney. Of course we pleaded not guilty, and was asked if we would be tried by a jury or 40 50 II u V 8S6 |:^ "iriii" :i: 1 (Chii rIeH R|»ri nK — Rcdi HM-t.) not. I nuked for tiiui- to conxidcr, but wns told by thu court thut I would bavc to decide ut once. Iteing in a Htrnnge place, 1 thouKlit I would want n jury, but after being let out on our own recognizance we Hoiiglit a lawyer to take the case 11]) for UH, agreeing to pay liini f.'OO in eacli caw*'. They ap- peared for UB next morning and deinandtKl a jury. The "Thornton" case wuh tak«'ii up first. The jury convicted .Q himself and mate, impoHing a fine of fr>()0 and |:U)0. and a month'H imprimmment eacli. Tlie "Han Diego" was tried without a jury, and the captain got two months and his mate one month imprisonment. My case will be tried on the (tth, and I don't expect to come much better than the "Thornton" rase, without I get a more respectable jury than the "Thorn- ton" had. Hut it appears they are determined to convict us all. Frencliey and I are imprisoned witli the rest of the crowd, so we can't get much news from outside. I asked the lawyer to write you and explain matters to you, as he 20 will be able to do it better than I vnn. When I wrote you from Ounalaska I aslied the captain of the cutter what he was going to do with us, but I got no satisfaction, only that I would get justice. They were expecting a judge up from 'Frisco at the time. Had I known we were coming here 1 y'ould have mentioned it in my letter, so you mfght take steps to protect me here; but it would "not be of much use, as this affair can't be settled here. I had about (80 in sil- ver In a bag when we were taken on board the cutter, thai I received for clothes I sold the Indians at Ounalaska at re- ^ duced prices; and as we were just to live with the sailors, and they being a hard lot, I asked the captain if he would put it in his safe for me until I got to Sitka. asked me If it was my own money or the ship's; I told I was my own; he sealed tlie bag and put it away; his officer wit- nessed it. On arrival at Hitka he placed ii in the hands of the marshal, and I have not seen it since. I suppose I was wrong in giving it to him; but he told me that personal pro perty was respected. I am going to see the captain now, 40 «nd I think it is likely he will hand it over. Of course I told him I thought I waS handing it to a gentleman. I wrote Captain McLean a long letter and told him about the sudden disappearance of James Ogilvie of the schooner "Carolena," and I am of the opinion that he will never be found alive. "On the arrival of the "San Diego" here our Indians were all put on shore to shift for themselves, and I believe they are faring vtry slim. I spoke to the judge arid tlie marshal about them, but they have an idea that the Indians got money, as they made a great display here among the Indians 5c when they arrived the first day or two. I paid them cash for skins, f324, and I got flOO of that from them, or more, and they have been gambling and buying clothes here, so they can't have much left. I am sending you an account of the cash pai'l in checks paid to the Indians. Deducting the 400 skins on board, should you think advisable. Fren- chey feels very down-hearted about being in jail, but I feel much better since I got yoiir letter of encouragement. "I thank you very much f(»r sending my wife the flOO, and 60 ns T told 'her to be ready to come out by the latter part of this month, would you please send her |200 to pay their passages, as I want them to come out before the cold'weath- er seta in, and you will oblige me very much. "And don't be alarmed about myself and Frenchey, as we turned a new leaf, especially with this business hanging over us. Please write me, and if there is any letters, forward them. I remain, "Yours respectfully, DANIEL MUNRO." ^m H '• lind of leir 1th- lO 30 887 (Charlt'M SpiiiiK— R«'(lin'tt.) Q. — Who Ih Pr«'iicht\v? A.— Thiit was tlic iiiat«> at that time. Q. — It is auotl-vr tiaiiit' for Marl«'ti«-h? A. — That wns a niclcnnnie for Marlcetich. Q. — Witli that, di<] you gi>t an ai'foiint witli thu captain Hhowinf; wliat he paid the IndianH? A.— With Honu of the letters he sent an account. Q.— Ih that the account? A.— (Exumining)— That is the account. Q.— That is the actual docunuiit itself? A.— It is. Q. — And thin document shows the total amount due the Indians, dm-s it, IjdSlfi? A.— Yes. Account received and marked Exhibit No. 33, G. B., Claim No. 3. Q. — Does this account show the amount the captain had paid the Indians? A. — Yes. 20 Q. — And what is the amount cpining to them? A. — 11816. Q. — I believe you jjot other letters from the captain? A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Peters: — 1 want to be allowed to put in a letter, dated the 4th of September, 1886, from Captain Munroe to Mr. Bpring. It is as follows: "Sitka, Sept. 4th, 1886. "Charles Sprinj:, Ehij. "Dear Sir: Since w 1 iling you yesterday I liave been thinking over the dnift I gave tl\e lawyer on you should feel inclined to honor it. It is a large sum, but if I lose the case here lie has to take it to Or.'gon for tlie same money. But should you remit the money you better send it to meand I will pay him part of it, as it won't do for you to give him all of it at present. "1 seen some of our Indians last evening. They tell me they had nothing to eat yesterday and very little the day be- 4C1 fore, and I can't say how they are goiflg to send them home. But I would like you would show the captain of the cutter and the oflficialH up in the Victoria papers. They are pro- viding for all the white men, but the Indians can't speak for themselves, but there is no doubt the United States Govern- ment pays for them all the same. And as to finding James Ogilvie, there has been no search made for him by the author- ities tliat any person knows of. We searched for him until we were locked up. And we think he is dead not far away from the town, and he was a prisoner at the time. The boat is just about leaving, and I will hand this to Mr. Lewis, of San Francisco, who came to see us, and as he is going to Victoria you will likely see him. I am in good hopes that everything will come out all right yet. "Yours respectfully, "(Signed) DANIEL MUNROE." Mr. Peters:—! wish to put in another letter, dated the 11th September, from Captiin Munroe to William Spring. It is 60 ns follows: 'Sitka, Sept. 11th, 1886. 'Mr. Charles Spring, Victoria. "Dear Sir: As the steam cutter "Coi-win" leaves here to-day for the Sound, and is going to take out Indians with her. I thought best to drop you a line. My trial came off a few days ago, and I got one month's imprisonment and a fine of f20n, and Frenchv one month in jail. Our time will be up on the 5th 50 1 ;l ii 1 1 i 1 m 11 ■1, ■ 1 ■ ' ■ ■ lO 20 30 888 (Charles Bpriiig — Re-diivct.) October, and if my tine ig not paid I suppose I will have to remain until it is paid. Please let me know if a claim has been presented to the Government for the ship and the car- go, and, if so, what amount. Otherwise the claim will be made here the 4rh of October simply for the vessel and cargo. Be sure and let me know, for there must not be two claims, for If you presented a claim below and I present one here, the consequenctr will be confusion, as there must be but one claim. If you have not put in your claim below the claim here must be made by the 4th Oct. And the belief here is that we will get evevything back and be fully compensated. "1 don't know where they are going to land our Indians but I will send this letter by one of the boys tliat was in the "Onward" with us who will forward it to you as soon as pos- sible as I would like you would get it before the "Idaho" re turns from Portland. "Please send my letters up and write me fully about the claims "I remain your respectfully, "(Signed) D.\NIEL MTTNROE." "I gave the Indians ^5 and Frenchy gave them $1 to buy provisions. Now Jim and his mate want to know what they are going to get for working on board. and I think they got enough when Ihey got their victuals for all the help they gave us. I would as soon be without them than have the bother of feeding them in the cabin. It appears Jim told his friend that he would get his meals aboard so he left without taking any provisions with him. All they done for us was to kee',» w'atch on the passage to the Uehring Sea. So you can settle with Jim as you please, but I told the other man he was to get nothing. I believe they are going to be put ashore at Nanaimo, and should a vessel be going so far as Kvnnuot please have mv clothes brought up and oblige. "(Signed) D. M." Q.— Mr. Spring, you were asked with regard to the relations existing between you and some partners. Now, will you just state that very briefly, Mr. Spring. There was an orig- inal piirtnership carried on between William Spring and somebody else? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— What was the name of that old partnership? A.— WMlliam Spring & Co. Q._Who were the members of that firm? A.— William Spring, Peter Francis and Theodore Liil»be. Q. — What relation was William Sjii-ing to yourself? A. — He was my father. Q. — And William Soring died, when? A. — In March. 1884. Q. — He made a will, I believe? A. — Yes. Q. — Under which vou had an interest in his estate? A. — Yes. (j. — You need not go into particulars, but generally speak- fpg I l)elieve you had a fifth interest? A. — Yes. Q. — In all his property? A. — Yes. Q. — Part of which you were to get down and part of which 60 you could not get until a certain lime? A. — Yes. ii. — William Spring & Co.. at the time of your father's death, did they carry on business a( these dilTereiil trading stations on the west coast? A. — They did. Q. — W^ere they also interested in schooners? A. — Yes. Q. — Did they also carry on a general business? A. — A trading and sealing business. Q— At that time there was very little catching of seals, it was mostly buying? .\.— Itnying and catching both. 40 50 ^mm lO 20 30 40 50 Co 889 (ClmiicH Spring — Re-din'ct.) Q. — Wlii'ii your futlitr died was tlu-ro a division made an between the family sliowing what share you should get? A. — Yes. (i. — Was it ina(l;» in kind or in cash? I mean by giving you certain property or by giving yon cash? A. — It was in prop- erties. Q. — You toolc over certain properties as part of your share in ycur father's estate? A. — Yes. Q. — Did the other heirs do the same? A. — No. Q. — Amoijgst others you got your fatlier's interest in cer- tain properties? Did you get any interest in tliese trading stations? A. — Yes, 1 tool; them over. Q. — Where were they? A. — Icluet, Hesquot and Clayo- quot. Q. — You took over your father's interest in these trading posts? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And also in certain vessels? A. — Yes. Q.— What vessels? A.— The "Onward" and the "Kate." Q. — Were the trading posts more or less speculative sort of thing? A. — Yes. (J. — And you took them over at a certain valuation? A. — Yes. i}. — And you took the schooners over at a certain valua- tion? A. — Yes. Q. — Was the old firm of Wm. Spring & Co. then wound up completely? A. — Not completely at that time. Q. — Did it cease to be a going concern? A. — It did. Q. — It was left to be finally wound up by whom? A. — Mr. Theodore Lubbe. Q. — This was only a partial winding up of it? A. — Yes. Q. — The rest of the business was left in Lubbe's hands to wind up? A. — Yes. Q. — And I presume in the course of time he did wind it up? A.— Yes. Q. — And under that arrangement you took over these prop- erties? A. — Yes. Q. — And at the same time did you go into partnership with Mr. McLean? A.— I did. Q. — Did that partnership include as well the trading sta- tions and vour other business as the ownership of ships? A. —Yes. Q. — It included all the business? A. — It included all the business. i}. — It was a general partnership? A. — A general part- nership. (.}. — Did you make any entry in your hooks showing the taking over of these iliifcrent projjerties from Wm. Spring & Co.? A.— I did. Q.— What book is Ms? A.— The day book. Q. — What day boo " .\. — ('. Spring & Co.'s day book. Q. — On the first jtage of that book is there an entry of the partnership entered into between you and Mr. Francis and Mr. McLean? A. — There is. Mr. Peters: — I projtose to read that entry, it is very short, between those parties. It is as follows: Charles Spring. I'eter Fianiodu(e it it will be more convenient. Mr. Dickinson: — We will let you liave it. Re-direct examination by Mr. I'clers continued: Q. — That is the document. I believe"' A — Yes. Q. — You had one copy and McLean the other? A.^Yos. Document of dissolution of partnership between Mr. Spring and Mr. McLean received and marked "Exhibit No. .34 (O. B.)," Claim No. 3. Q. — That was the nature of vour partnership with McLean? A.— Yes. Q. — He had no more to do with your business and > '>u had no more to do with his? A. — No. Q. — That ended your transactions finally? A. — Yes. Q. — You were asked. Mr. Spring, about tlie affidavit that you first put in in this claim, away back in October, 1886. I want you to listen to this affidavit and see whetlier there is anything in it that reipiires explanation at all: I, Charles Spring, of Victoria, British Columbia, owner of the British schooners "Onward" and "Favourite" do solemn- ly and sincerely declare: 1. That the value of the said vessel "Onward"" a't the time of her seizure by the Ignited States steamship "Torwin" was 4,(t00 dollars, and the cost o7 tlie outfit when she left Victoria for the Behring Sen was 1,000 dollars. Q. — That is what von said then? A. — Yes. u ()l i % .^Nii: II; |i|ji|i lO 20 892 (Charles Spring — Ro-dirwf. Miclincl Harkin — Direct.) Q. — And you liave always said th«| same? A. — Yes. 2. That she carried a crew of twenty men, and the esti- mated wages due to the master and men for four months from the 12th day of June to the time of their return to Vic- toria is 7,500 dollars. Q. — You ma^e fliat estimate? A. — Yes. 3. That at the time of her capture by the "Corwin" she had 100 seal skins, wliich were worth |2,S00. Q-— You were basing that at f7 a skin? A.— Yes, sir. 4. That the probable catch for the season estimated on the number of skins taken by other schooners and by the numbe^r of skins taken when the said schooner was captured, would be 3.000 skins, tlie value of which, at $7 n skin, would be 121,000. Q-— And you based that on a valuation of f7 a skin? A. —Yes. Q-— You stated to Mr. Warren that some of these canoes were only worth |10. The other day I understood you to put them at t25. How do you explain the difference? A. — I stated |25 included everything. Q.— And you still stick to that? A.— Yes. Q.— You got new canoes? A. — The majority of them were new. There were some about a year old or so that had 30 been used. Re-cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Have you produced all the letters you received from Mr. Munroe? A. — All of them, I think, with the exception of the Ounalaska one. Q. — With reference to Mr. Clark I think you had reports from him right along by letter? A. — Yes. Q. — At the time of your dissolution when it was arranged .Q that Capt. McLean was to be paid f 1,100 and odd; in accord- ance with the dissolution argreenient did you put a value on the "Favourite?" A. — There must have been. Q. — Do you remember what it was? A. — I do not remem- ber it off hand. Q. — Is there anything to show? A. — Yes. Q. — Where is it, is it in the book? A.- -I tliink so but 1 am not able to locate it precisely just now. Q. — I will try and refresh your memory. Wus it |3,000? A. — I think it was, ])iit I am not sure. JO Q.— And |1,800 for the "Kale," is that riglit? A.— I think it is about riglit. Q. — Tliat is tlie valuation put ui)on them at the time of the dissolution when you bought Mcljean out? A. — Tliat is the valuation put in at tliat time and lnonght about under cer- tain conditions. lipll 60 Michael Harkin w.'is called as a witness on the part of Cireat Britain and was duly sworn. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — Mr. Harkin where do you live? A. — 30 Queen St., Victoria. Q. — You have lived here for some year? have you not? .\. —I have been off and on here. 'm lO 20 30 40 50 893 (Michael Uarkiu — Direi-t.) Q. — What is ^our oeeiipatiou? A. — Cook. Q.— Were you on the "Onward?" A.— I was on the "On- ward in l.S8ti. On the 25tli May I left Victoria on board the "Favourite." Q. — You started on board the "Favourite" on the 25th May? A.— Yes. Q. — And at Kyocjuot vou were transhipped to the "On- ward?" A.— Yes. Q.— Did you ^o on the "Onward" to Behring Sea in the capacity of cock? A. — Yes. Q. — Where did you take in your provisions? A.— I had nothing at all to do with taking In the provisions. The "Favourite" had brought some grub for the "Onward." Q. — And at Kyoquot were there provisions put on board tlie "Onward?" A. — I l)elieve there were. Q. — You had nothing to do with putting them on board? A. — Nothing at all. Q. — As a matter of fact did you hear any instructions given as to how long the vessel was to be provisioned for? A. — As far as 1 heard from the captain it was that he was not authorized to return until between the 25th September and the Ist October. Q. — You were supposed to get back then? A. — Yes. Q. — Tell me generally what class of provisions you had on board? A. — Beef, pork, canned salmon, canned vegetables, as far as I can remember, but of course, I made no list of them or had no list given to me. Q. — Had you pilot bread? A.— Oh, jes, pilot bread, and flour, and butter and sugar and coffee and molasses and rice. Q. — As cook, you had the management of the provisions while you were on lioard? A. — According to the instrui;- tions of the captain. Q._.Were you wanting anything or had you everything on the ship? A.— Well we liad everything; we had just what we wanted to carry us through. We had just as much as vou need for a seaiing shcooner at the present time. Q.—Can you tell me how many bairels of corned beef you has ou board? A.— I cannot. Q._But vou had it? A.— Yes. Q.— Had you any bacon? A.— I believe we had bacon il — Wlieii were you seized in Behring Sea? 3rd of August. . 4. r^ Q.— And when you were seized you were taken into uun- alaska? A.— Yes. Q._How did vou get from Ounalaska to Sitka.' A.— I Df- lieve there were 42 of us sent down on the schooner San Diego." Q. A.— On the Were theie auv provisions taken from your ship for ■ A.— There was the Navigator 60 anv purpose thitt you saw. .. , , j Lieul^enant of the "Cot win" came on board o"*;^ J>.v and asked for provisions to take on board the steamer 'St Paul, and 1 told him the captain was not here just at that time and 1 thought to mvself I did not know anything about it and I S better let him take it. He took fl-'';^"^, ,r""* things out of the vessel and put it on the "St. Paul. Q_ra„ vou remember what stuff it was he actually did ^„1.,.7 A.— I cannot exactly remember. v.— He did. yes. take. 0._-You knew he look some.' Q.-And that was t.. go on board the "St. Paul?' That is what he told nie. A.— Q. — po you remember tlu ''St. Paul" sailing? A.— 1 do. Q._Sh,. sailed before you left A.— Yes. Q.-And yon wen 1 afterwards in the "Knn Diego? A.- -. i ■ ! ' Yes. •71" Yt's. 894 (Mii-liiit'l llarkiu — Direct — Cross.) -And yoH went up to Sitka ou the ''San Diego?" A.— '■ f 1 j, ! 1/ l';l Q.— Who went up with you on that vegsel? A. — There were 1« Indians from the "Onward" and a deck hand and me and Freneiiy, tlie mate. Q.— Freiuliy was the mate? A.— Yes, and tliere were two Indians belouijiug to the Str. "Thornton." There were about ,Q H) in all, including: the white crew belonging to the "San Diego," at the same time. Q.— How long woie you detained at "Sitka?" A.— I was detained there until such time as the "Corwin" left. I was brought down in the revenue cutter 'Corwin." We were brought down and landed at Nanaimo. Q.— Who were brought down there? A. — They brought me and the whiU- crew belonging to the "San Diego" and the 18 Indians— 16 belonging to the "Onward" and two belongine to the "Thornton." 20 Q.— They brought them down to Nanaimo? A.— Yes, and landed us about 5 o'clock at night at Nanaimo. Q.— And itut you on sliore there? A. — Put us on shore there and did not give us any pass to go to Victoria or any- thing else. They landed us there without supper or any- thing. Q. — From there you got to Victoria? A. — I thought I would go and report at the Custom House and I saw a Custom House ofBcer and he said he could dp nothing for me. Q. — How did you get from Nanaimo to Victoria? A. — I 30 got down on the steamer "Amelia." Q. — Who paid your fare? A. — I had to pay it myself. Q. — Did you ever get it back? A. — I do not linow whether it was ever stopped out of my wages or not. I went to Capt. McLean's hous*' that night as soon as I got in and got f5 from him. Q. — Did any otliers come down that way? A. — The cap- tain gave us all our discharge, but I had to leave my bag and bed and what I had as m^cufity for myself. Q. — When did you get to Victoria- A. — I got to Victoria on the 25th September. Q. — There was a man named Nightingale on board the "On- ward?" A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Do you know where- he is? A. — The last account I had from him he went to Marselles. France. Q.— That was: how long ago? A.— 1888. Q.— What position had he on the "Onward?" A.— He was su])posed to be able seaman. Q.— In 188fi? A.— Yes. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing: Q. — Mr. Harkin, did any of tb • members of the crew ot the "Onward" go on board the "St. Paul?" A. — I went, sir. Q. — You were taken off the "Onward" and taken to the "St. Paul?" A.— Yes. Q. — How were you taken? A. — I was taken in a boat, sir. Q. — Did not these i)rovi8ionB go on board the "San Diego?" A. — No. sir, it was going on board the steamer "St. Paul," it (3u was supposed to leave the "Onward" to go on board the "St. Paul," but it was neglected by the captain of the revenue cut- ter as it was supposed to i)e for the two white men. Q. — Thc.v took the provisiims for these two white men? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — They took very little provisiosn then? A. — Well, it was not a large amount. Q. — Tust enough for two men for about how long? A. — I should say 12 days. 40 m n lO 895 (Michaii llarkiii — Ci'obs — Ki'dirett.) Q. — How mmiy Indians did you have on board? A. — We had IG, I believe. Q.— And how many Indians hunted in each canoe? A. — Two. Q. — Then yon Jiad eiglit canoes? A. — I have kind of an idea tliat we had one cano<* from Kyuquot. Q. — But only eight hunted? A. — I am not sure about eight or nine. Q. — You had 16 Indians and nine canoes? A. — I think I remember that there were 20 Indians came down, because tliere were two from the "Thornton." Q. — Twenty altogether? A. — Yes, two from the "TIjoiti- ton." I feel almost sure that there were nine canoes now. Q. — Did not the Indians bring with them a good deal of dried fruit and such food? A. — Yes, sir, they did. Q. — Did they eat seal meat when they were on board? A. — Yes, sir, they eat a little. Q. — And the provisions you spoke of last, such as tea, sugar, and such things, were provided for the white men? A. — Yes, sir, provided for all the crew. Q. — Did you supply the Indians with it? A. — With tea and sugar. Q. — And with canned vegetables? A. — No. sir, not canned vegetables. Q. — And you supplied the Indians with beef? A. — Yes. Q. — Did jou give the Indians canned meats? A. — No, sir. but we gave them salted meats. (i. — You supplied them with salted meats? A. — ^Yes. sir, but not right straight along. Q. — You supplied with rice? A. — Yes, rice, molasi'es and sugar, but no butter. Q. — Was any charge made to them for that? A. — No, not to my knowledge. Re-direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — When you were taken to Ounalaska, had you any meat 4° on board? A. — We had. certainly. Q. — Do you know what became of it? A. — I cannot say. Q. — As a matter of fact you had meat there? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— Beef? A.— Yes. Q. — Anything else? A. — Yes, some pork and bacon. Q. — And you do not know what became of it? A. — I did not. Q. — Did the captain of the ''Corwin." or any of his officers take an inventory of the goods while you were there? A. — Not while I was there. Mr. Peters: — I want to put in evidence in this case the record of the conviction of Daniel Monroe at Sitka. Received and marked "Exhibit No. :?5, (1. B., Claim No. 3." Mr. Peters: — 1 also wish to put in the same case the convic- tion of Marketich. 30 50 60 Received and marked "Exhibit :«!, (J. B., Claim No. 3." I want to |,(it in also copy of the appearance of the "On- ward" which has be<'!i fiiinuln d by my learned friend. I wish also to put in the whole libel against the "Onward," and, es|H»cially, I want to call attention to the amended libel at i»age L'8 of the MK. I think it would 1m' well U> put a por- tion of it on the notes, and the rest need not then go ou thQ notes. I 11 if IP rf 1 1 H i ■ W ' III! ■i! I I ;! 10 20 3<^ 40 896 That ('. A. Abbey, an otti('«>r of the Kevenue Maiinc Service of I'nlted States, in counnand of the I'nited States revenue cutter "Corwin," and on special duty in tlie waters of the District of Alnslia, heretofore, to-wit, on the 2nd day of Aur- usl, 18H(!, witliin tlie limits of Alaska territory, and in the waters thereof, and within the civil and judicial District of Alaska, to wit: within (he waters of that portion of Hehrin^ Sea belonfjiuf? to the I'nited States and said district, on wa- ers navifjable from the sea by vessels of ten or more tons burden, seized the schooner "Onward," her tackle, apparel, boatfl, cargo and furniture, beinp tlie property of some person or persons unknown to said attorney; the said property is more particularly described as follows, to-wit. I want to call attention to tliat particularly. Mr. Dickinson: — You have put in the inventory before it need not be printed twice Mr. Peters: — It will be printed in the Exhibit, and it need not po in the Record. Document received and marked "Exhibit .'17, G. B., Claim No. V Q. — I wish to call attention also to the following evidence of this Exhibit : John M. Rliodes being duly sworn deposes and sfiys: "Q. — State your nnme, iige and occnpatidu? A. — .Tohn M. Rhodes. Lieut. V. S. Revenue Marine, at present on the U. S. Revenue Steamer Corwin, and over the age of 21 years. ''Q. — Was any otlier i)rop«'rty sei/,<'d upon the schncner 'Onward,' except what is inclu«1ed in the general inventory? A. — There was a box containing clothing and nautical Instru- ments. The box was marked Daniel Monroe, Master of the schoner "Onward." "(2. — What was done with tliis jii'operty? \. — I turned it over to the T'nited States marshal at Sitka and it is now in his custody. The Commissioners took recess at one o'clock. 50 At half-past two o'clock the Commissioners resumed their seats. Mr. Peters: — T wish the following to be transferred from the "Carolcna" case to this case; The whole of llie evidence of the mate Marketich to be found at pages 71 to SO. The evidence of Munsie as to the i-ate of interest charged. The evidence <»f John (iraham Cox at page 140, introduc- 60 tion and his evidence as to value and cost of vessels. The evidence of John J. Robertson, page 155, as to the cost l)er ton of building vessels at Victoria. The whole of the evidence of U. F. Seiwald, to be found at page 157; The whole of tlie .'videnre ef William Tiirpel to be f<)uu' at page Ififi; The whole of the evidence (»f Samuel Mc(?ulloch Smith, beginning at page 191; ^ lO ?o 30 40 so 60 897 (TL>Htiiiiuu,y TmnHftTi-ed From Other Claiius.) The whole of the evidence of John Habiston beginni^- at page 2U8; The whole of the evidence of John Clark, beginning at page 212; An extract from the Record of the Governor of Alaska, be ginning at page 221; The whole of the evidence of A.K. Milne, beginning at page 221; The whole of the evidence of J. I). Warren, taken at page 227; also liis evidence on page 27!( and following, and page 314 and following; The whole of the evidence of C. Spring, taken to page 240; The whole of the evidence of William Itragg, beginning on page 2?2; also the same witness on page 25J); also the same witness on page 332; Also snch parts of the evidence of Andrew Laing as were used in the case of the "Carolena" at pjtge 270; The evidence of Victor Jacobson. beginning at page 274; The evidence of William O'Leary, beginning at pnge 21tO; The evidence of Emil Kamilas, beginning at page 2!>8; The whole of the evidence of Gustave Hansen, beginning at page 301 ; The various cliarts referred to, being Exhibits 2i, 22, 23, 24 and 25 in the "Carolena" case; The whole of the evidence of Alexander Keppen, beginning on page 306; The whole of the evidence of Charles A. Goffln, beginning on page 316 ; The whole of the evidence of William Douglas Byers, be- ginning at page 317; The whole of the evidence of Charles Auguste Lundberg, beginning at page 321; The whole of the evidence of Robert McKeil, beginning at page 326; The whole of the evidence of Neil Moss, beginning at page 334; The evidence of C. Spinng, ^jiven at page 344; The whole of the evidence of Percival R. Brown, beginning at page 355. I also wish to use in this case all the expert evidence on the qu««8tion of the sinking of seal'-i; a!«o all the evidence as in the average catch that was gi'.en in the "Carolena" case — in fact all the evidence that waogivj'rt out of its order so far as it is applicable to this case, wliicli I am not able I0 nnme specifically on account of its not being printed. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Tliis is going to i»ut great labour on counsel, and of course, as we go along it will increase in i.ttio. I'erliaps we may be thought to be more than human, but, so far as I am concern- ed, 1 believe it will l)e very hard to keep out of our minds in one case evidence on certain general topics in other cases. I woiild suggest, on my own behalf, and without having con- sulted Judge King, that it would be well to prepare a gen- eral order with regard to the evidence on certain topics. Mr. Peters: — A great deal of this evidence might be omit- ted if it were understood that counsel in the written argu- ments might advert to any evidence they like introduced in the diffei-ent cases. This would be worse on us than on the other side, because we will have to start the argument and begin with our written argument first. The Commissioner on the j)art of the United States: — The record must be made with great accuracy under the terms of 57 ' i •■ 1 L n " I- . i 1 f l'i< ^ \i' \ i! 1 ' 1; '; 'I'l '-1 i ' r (UiseuHHioii.) tho Convention. It occurs to uu> ttiat counsel nilght consult together, and possibly arran^o some way out of the difllcul- ties which 1 si'e will crop up. Mr. Peters: — We can Belves. discuss that matter between our- 20 nm m-\ ,1 i 11 " 11 : 30 40 60 The case of the I'nited States of America In answer to the claim of Great Britain in the matter of the "Onward," Claim No. 3. Mr. Dickinson: — It is jierhaps duo to the United States to say that the counsel of that goveniment have iM'en very preatly iini)r(>s8ed with the kor assessment — that is so far as the value of the ship and prop«>rty seized is concerned — the perscmal claim stands upon a different footing so far as this "Onward" claim is conc«'rned. I may add to what T have stated that it is a matter of regret to the counsel of the T'nited States that this claim cannot be more promptly dis- posed of, and the owners, whoever they are, as the Commis- sioners find, coiiijiensated more promptly than is possiltlc un- der the circumstances. We desire to transfer the cross-examination of the wit- nesses named by my leanu>d friend, and which is obviously ap)>licable — to borrow the felicitous i)lirase of my leanied friend — I desire also to transfer the testimony bciii-iny; on the probable catch and value, and the general testimony of Mr. Alexander, Cai)tain Miner, Captain Kaymtr and <'aptain Alexander McLean, with the cross-examination of the Brit- ish counsel upon some >;eneral subjects as to the valuation; incidental evidence will be {ifiven if your Honours hold a ses- sion in San Francisco; evidenic will also be ffiven there as to the probable catch; we would desire to jtut in in this case the same part of the Becord that was put in in the "Car- olena" case showinj; the dates of the oidinary dismisstil — just what was put in in the "Candena" case frxaiiiiiu'irt'(;t cxainiiiutioii by Mr. Warn'ii: Q. — All that yon have said in tlic caHc of tho "Oaroh-na" with rcfmiMU*' to tlic Ircatnicnt of liu- (■a])tainH and niatt'H at Kitlta and Onnalanka a|*]>lii'H ciiiially to tiu> Captain of tlio *° "t)nward" — Daaiol Monro*' — as wt-ll as to the otlu>r prison- erH? A. — \vH. sir, the Hann>. Q. — Was tht'H' any distinction as it'ftards Captain Monroo, in th«» niattor of troatntcnt? A. — \o. sir, none whatever. Q. — Do vou vonrself remember Captain Monroe? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Was lie confined on board his ship at Onnalaska? A. —No, sir. Q._Or at Sitka? A.— No, sir. Q. — And with reference to the time when he chanK<'d his l»laoe of sle<'pin« from tlie boat to the court house — does the same fact apply to him as with reference to the others? A. — Yes. just the same. Q._ThHt 1*« bi'fore the trial, he voluntarily began to sleep in the court house? A. — Yes. Q. — He was tried about the same time as the others? A. Yes, sir. Q. — It appears from tlie record that a tine was impos<'d upon him. Do yoii know .is a matter of fact whether he paid 30 the fine? A. — No, sir; he did not. Q. — TTe waR discharged of the tine? A. — "^'es, sir. Mr. Peters: — The record is the test of all this. W«* ask- ed for the T^nited States records, and they have given them to nn; I object to this evidence; it is perfectly impossible that this witness should know whether Captain Monroe paid the fine, or whether he did not pay. The Commissioner on the part of the T'nited States: — Do Q you allege that he paid the fine? Mr. Peters: — We make no allegation about it. Sir C. H. Tupper: — We simply say that there was a tine. The Commissioner on the j)art of the United States: — Then they do not allege that he paid the fine. Mr. Dickinson: — No, they leave it on the record that he was fined, and, of course, the record would not disclose whether the fine was paid or not. 50 Mr. Peters: — This witness cannot be put in a position to show the fine was remitted. The Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — Do you claim that the man was fined f:{()(), and that he paid his fine? Mr. Peters; — I do not, ! never did claim it. The (Commissioner on the part of the I'nited States: — What "° is the use of going into it then? Take that admission as placed on record — that is suflHcient. Direct examination continued by Mr. Warren: Q. — There was something said this morning about a sum of SSO which C;i]>(aiii MonrtM- deliAcied to the oltit(>i (if tin- *'Corwin," which it was stated was delivered by the officer of the "Corwin" to the Marshal. Will you tell the Commin- 1 i I :, . ■ t. r ; ■ 1 i l\l III m '!'• 1 M!l:i 10 20 30 i:! 900 (('hmh'B 1). Kayiioi— Oin'ct— CroHH.) HioniMH wliat 3v»>r to tlM* MaiMhal. and lu- told iii«' afttTwardH that the Mai-Hhal had jjivcn him hack the moin-.v. Ak a inatttT of fact I borrowed flO out of tho money mywif. (J.- Tliat wan at Sitka? A.— Yen. Q. — And then the "San IHcj^o." of wiii<"h .von wtTf captain, took the Indian en w of the "Onward" down to Sitka? A.— Yt'H, Hlr. Q. — And the proviHioiiK were tran«ferrcd from tho "On- ward" to vonr boat for tho pnrpoHO of pnp])ortinK those In- dians? A. — Y08, sir. Q. — Win yon toll ns what provisions wore fnkon on Hoard your boat, tlio "San THejjo," from the "Onward?" A. — There were 2 boxes of bread, 'A sacks of tlonr, '2 small sid«'8 of ba- con, a case of canned to]nato<'s and a barrel and a half of salted soul meat. Q. — You wore on board tho "Onward" in the harbour of Ounalaska? A. — Yes. sir. I was. ii. — Had you hih'U lier bofoi-o you had wmmi her ''i Oun- alaska? A. — YoH. sir, I had seen her a ifreat many tlnu's when she was owned in San Francisco. Q. — Did you have a knowlodgo of the Roneral condition of the "Onward" at that time? A.— Yes. sir, I think I did. Q. — Did you know at that time about what tonnage she was? A. — I cannot exactly say what her tonrapo was, but I would judRo it to be from 25 to .10 tons. Q. — You knew tho boat in general and tho size of her? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — What would von consider tho njarket value of the "On ward" in 1880 at tile port of San Francisco? A.— ?•_"»'>(». Q. — You think she was worth more than the "<"arol< iia"? A . — Yes. » Cross-examination by Mr. Peters: il. — Your idea was she was worth |2,()0(>? A. — Yes. Q. — What was her tonnage? A. — Between 25 and :{0 tons, I should think. Q. — Do you know her tonnage? A. — Not exactly. Q. — Yes or no, do you know her tonnage? A. — IJotwoen 2.T and .'{0 tons, I think. Q. — Do you know her exact tonnage? A. — I said I did not. (J.— What condition was she in in 18Hw sails? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Was she in good condition otherwise? A. — I think she was; yes. Q._Was she or was she not? A.— Yes, she was in good «ondition. Q. — Were you on boai'd her? A. — I was. Q._After "she was seized? A.— Yes. Q._Aftor she was hauled up on tho shore? A.— No, sir, she was Iving at anchor when I saw her. Q.—Wllat part of her were yon on? A.— 1 was on her deck and in her cabin. . „ , Q._Sho was only worth f2,0(l(»? A.— That is all sho would be worth in San Francisco. Q._n..w do you know that? A.— That is what 1 would judge sho would bo worth in Sun Francisco, 40 50 60 I -i: lO (J0{ (CImilcH I). Hii.vndi — < 'roHM. CIihiIi'h HihIiik— Diml.) (i.—How do you know It? A.— Fi«»iii wciiiK otlici- v»'hwI» Hold. ti.— Wlu'ii (lid you i!( «• nny gold in 1MM» to your knowh'dK*'? A.— I don't know that I Mcon nny Hold in IMMt;. ;reat nmny different 20 perHoiiH' talk, from men buying veHHeln and Helling them. Q. — Can you name one? A. — I eannot name one now. (i. — Ho that your knowledge of the value of a veHHel in Han FranciKeo. in ISHtJ, dependn on tlie talk of Home jM'ople, and you cannot tell (»ne, or name ont' — is that true? A. — Yes, that in true. Q._PoeHn't it Htrike you that that information is very valu- able? I Hhall leave you at that, captain. 30 Mr. Dickinwm: tain. -We are e(|ually watiHtled with that, ca|»- Mr. PeterH: — Mr. DickiiiHon han rained for the first time in this case, the statement that Alexander McLean was an American citizen; I want to prove for what it is worth that ^fr. Hpring knew nothing about tlie American citizenship of McLean. As a fact he first ascertained that recently. M 40 Charles Spring, n witness on the [Miit of Oi Commissioner on the jmrt of tlu' United States: — It 50 is sim])ly to remove an impression that may arise. Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q. — As a matter of fact, Mr. Hpring, when did you first as- certain, or hear, that Alexander McLean was an American citizen? A. — I had no idea of that until I arrived from the west coast in November. Q.— That is last November? A.— Yes. Q. — In 18S0 had you any idea of such a thing? A. — None 60 whatever. Q. — Nor had ,von nny means of knowing anything of the kind? A. — I knew nothing of the kind and never both«'r? .\.— Yes. Q. — And it was transferred to your name as appears from the record, and to what other name? A. — Mr. Daniel Mc- Lean. 20 Q.— In 188G? A.— Yes. Q. — At whose suggestion was the name of Daniel McLean put in? A. — I was under the impression that it was Alex- ander McLean's until lately. Q. — Did you have anything to do with the business of Mc- Lean? A. — No, it was put in the hands of other people. Q. — The bare fact stands that whether McLean was an American citizen or not .vou never knew about it until last November? A. — I knew nothing at all whatever about it. 30 Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Are you not ?uistaken about that, and had you not re- if we can, and, if so, Ae ■will examine them, so as to save time, if not we will have to go to San Francisco: or rather it may be necessary to suggest to your Honours to go to San Francisco; we are, however, us- ing our endeavor to get all the testimony we can in hert. The Commissioner on the part of the Cnited Scites:--! suj»itose you will be prei)ared to rebut then. Mr. Peters: — 1 presume so. 40 (Tliointon Olaim.) Thi" hearing of tlio elaim of tlie "Thornton," Claim No JJ was 1 lu>n r<*sunied. ' Sir C. n. TupiM'r:— My friend Mr. Dickinson lias b. good onouRli to di8|jenst' wifi) tlie formal proof of tlie original no- hvy of insurancv at Lloyds wliicli I have in the case of the 'Thornton." I have also shown him a siMtcmetiv of the Jinn j^ of I'liman and Edwards, brokers, showinfr the imiount of the premuims paid, and the retarnn .,f preminnis i)i (he ca«e of this ship. I tender these policies coverin,*il! Febriiai-y, ].8J original and one certitied i-opy; they are cm tlie hn:', and also on the treasure, or cargo. With these I will tender ilie wtale- ment which I showed to my learned friend, it was mside by the brokers, and certifled to by them, and I hav-? informed my 20 learned friend that I communicated with London for Ihesi' documents, and which came out direct in answei- to my re- quest, RiviuK what is the total amount on the vessel She is valued at |6,000. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — What is the amount insured on the vessel? Sir V. H. Tapper: — The amount of insurance on the veshcl altoj?ether is £1,200 and (m the cargo £1,000. 30 The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I suppose you mean by the "cargo" the catch? Sir C. H. Tapper:— Yes. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— Was it an annual policy? Sir (1 H. Tapper:— It covei-ed a year round for twelvo months. 4 The Commissioner on the part of Her Ma jesty :— What is the rate on the cargo? Sir C. H. Tupper:— Fifty shillings on the one hundred pound!.- sterling. Documents received and marked "P:xhibits 38, 3J), 40, 41 and 42, G. R., (Maim No. 2." Sir (J. H. Tupper: — I would suggest that my learned friend 50 and myself should consult together, and see what part of these exhibits need be pnnted, and what i>art need not be jtriuted. I iM'g to have tibnl the lecord in the case of the United States V. Harry Norman. Documei :t received and marked "Exhibit 43, (G. B.), Claim No. 2." Sir C. H. Tui.per:-! beg also to have tiled tlie case of the United States v. Hans (iuttormsen. Document received and marked "Exhibit 44, ((J. H.), Claim No. 2." y.r. Dickinson:— Wt> wish to have recoi-ded our objection to any claim for (iuttormsen, or any liability. He is de- ceased. Sir (\ H. Tupper:— My friends were good enough to yive lis a copy of c<>rtain pajK-rs in reference to th(> main record f r, ' , ■11 fl] 904 (J. D. Wnrren— Direct.) which I hold in my hand, and all of these I would tender for what they are worth. I make special reference to pages 1 to 17. inclusive, and pages 22 to 25, inclusive. Keceived and marked Exhibit 45 (Q. B.) Claim No. 2. i I i- Ifnl j iMH 20 30 10 J. D. Warren was recalled as a witness on the part of Oreat Britain. Sir C. H. Tupptn*: — I desire it to be noted in this case that the witness having already been sworn and examined in the case of the "Oarolena," that such part of his evidence, ex- cept that which is obviously inapplicable, be considered as tiiinsferi-ed to tlie record of the "Thoniton'' case. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupper: Q. — Captain Warren, you acquired a half interest in a sloop called the "Thornton" in 18G4, I believe? A.— Yes,, in 1864. Q. — At what rate did you buy into that? A.— At either |11,800, or 11,850, f 1,800 I "believe. Q. — And you acquired a second half Isiter? A. — Later. Q. — When was it that the sloop was turned into a sclioon cr? A. — In January. 1877. Q. — What work was done upon her for that purpose? A. — Well, the principal thing was making new masts. Q. — And ciuinging the rigging? .\. — And making places for tlie nmsts and changing the rigging and sails. Q. — What sort of material was she built of? A. — In the first place, frame of white oak, natun.l crooks, her bottom was cedar planking, and the rest of the vessel was Douglas fir they call it. Q. — After you had changed her into a schooner you went 40 out for a spring sealing trip? A. — Yes. Q. — After that what did you do to the vessel when the trip was over? A. — When I came back I had her hauled up on Cook's ways, and had her taken to pieces, and rebuilt. Q. — Briefly sl;ile what Avas done to tJie ship at that time? A. — In the first place when I hauled her out I took and put in new deck frames and decks, and got new knees, and when I went to overhaul the planking 1 found there was a good many of these cedar seams that were gone on the inside, we had started in taking simie of them off, then I consulted with S^ the carpenters and made a contract with them to put in a new frame and take the planking all off. They were to put in a new frame betwe<»n each of the frames, and to replank her. ti- — Were fhere new decks put in? A. — The new decks were jtut in before. Q. — And your new deck beams were put in at the time of the new decks? A. — Yes. I put them in by day work, both the beams and the decks. Q. — That was before the spring trip? A. — No, that was after the spring trip I did this part of it; then I found it would l)e belter to put in new frauu's — after I had dime so much for her I Ihonght if would be lietter to make her the -'ifie as a new vessel. '^ — Make a complete job of it? A. — Yes. ost and rudder post put in? A. — The old srtern post was not large enough for the sleeve and they had a new oak stem post and rudder put in. Q.— What were they made of? A.— Oak. 30 Q. — ''* -ter the preparatory work were the engines then put in? A.— Yes. Q. — And what other machinery went in? A. — Well, after the engine and boiler I put in a steam pump and hose. Q. — And an outfit for that? A. — I don't know as I put that in just at that time, I think it was put in later. Q. — Now about what did this machinery and steam-fitting cost? A. — As near as I can remember it cost about |3,000. Q. — What business had yon used this vessel for when not sealing? A. — For trading. 4° Q. — Trading along the coast? A. — Trading 6n the coast here. Q. — About what weight would she carry? A. — About 50 t(»ns, 50 long tons of coal. Q. — You carried coal in her of that weight? A. — Yes. Q. — In 1880 how many vessels were managt^l by yon? What did your fleet consist of? A. — Tliere were six sealers. Ilie "Thornton," the "Savward," the "Anna Heck," the "Onice" and the "Dolpliin." Q.— The "Kustlt'r" was lost in 1887? A.— She was lost in 1887. Q.— Who was master of tlte "Thoniton"' in 1880? A.— Hans fSnttornisen. vl.— He is dead? A.— Yes. Q.7— "^'..u have corresponded witli liim when he was master of the shi])? A. — Yes. Q. — Will yon look at tliis letter and see if it is in his hand- writing? .\.— That is a letter T nceived from him. 6q Q. — Do you know his handwriting? A. — Yes. Q.— That is his signature? A.— Yes. Q. — You i-eceived that in the course of the post? A. — I re- ceived it by post. Letter nmrked "No. 15 for identification." Q. — Look at tlie luindwriting in this book, and. having look- ih\ at alt the pages in that book, state in whose handwriting it is? .\ — Hans Outtornisen's. 50 ii' i % ft- iiv<, Wr H' 20 30 40 50 60 906 (J. D. Wiiircii — Direct.) Q. — You have examined tliis booli Ix'fdre witli me? A. — Yes. Sir C. H. Tupiu'i-: — I hIhiu1(1 state to the CommissionerH that I aslied tlie leading <'ounnel for Her Jfajestv to state that it appears that tlie parties were in correspondence with tlie Department of Marine and Pisheiles — of which I was liead at that time— they sent this book to Ottawa, and, out of tlie records it has come into my possession as agent for Her Majesty in connecti as a matter of fact dead or out of business n<»w? A. — Yes. some of them are out of business, and some of them are dead. Q. — Have you not even searched the records of the court, and had them searched? A. — Yes. I hav<> searched the court two or three times since. Q. — I will ask you in rcfei'euct' to some of the people that you did busin«'ss witli then. You dealt with Strauss & f!om- |>any? .\. — <'onsiderably. in li:' a lO 908 (J. D. Wiu'icii— Direct.) Q. — Are tliey in ImMiiieHH now? A. — No. Q. — And Sweeney & Hates? A. — HateH in out of business. {}. — And Van Vollvenburg? A. — He is out of business. Q. — And the llritisli Columbia soap wctrks? A. — They are out of buMuess. Q. — And Neufelder & Ross? A. — That firm is out of busi- ness i;nd Neufelder is out of the country. Q. — And Beat & Company? A. — Tliey are out of business. Q. — And the James Bay ('oal Yard, :!ie tlu'y in business? A — Tliey brolie np throuj;li that litigation, and the books could not be found. Q. — And Spratt, is he in business? A. — He in dead. Q. — Did you deal with Capt. Raymur? A. — Yes. Q. — What has become of him? A. — He is dead. Q. — And Wescott? A. — He is not here. Q. — These are some of the people you deal with, and have you endeavored to obtain duplicate vouchers and Infornia- 20 tion of that kind? A. — Yes, we have. Sir C. H. Tupper: — That is the reason why I frankly ask the Captain to come back to this document which he made at the time when I understand To witness: Q. — You say these matters were comparatively fresh in your recollection then? A. — Yes, they were fresh in my re- col led ion then. Q. — As a matter of fact, does the f533.00 reprcisCiit all that you proposed to put in the ''Thorntou" for provisions that 3° season? A.— No. Q. — What arrangements did you make with regard to o\it- fltllng the "Thornton" that year? A. — I took extni supplies on board the "Dolphin" to give her in Behring Sea. Q, — Y'ou had extra supplies for the "Thornton" on board the "Dolphin?" A.— Yes. Q. — What was your reason for not putting the full sujjples on the "Thornton" for the Behring Sea voyage at Clayoiiuot? A. — They were cramped for room. Q. — She was a small vessel? A. — A small vessel. Q. — What arrangement did you make so that you could re- plenish the Thornton with supplies? A.— I arranged for the i-aptain to meet me in the Behring Sea at a certain time and place so as to give him any supplies he wanted. Q.— Where did you have this understanding? A. — In Clayo>]uot is where I made tlu' arrangements with the Cap- tain. Q.— And as a matter of fact you subseciuently met the "Thornton," did you not? A.— Yes. 50 Q.— And met him at the moutli of y were on the same coast together. Q.— And when you entered Behring Sea, they entered about the same time? A.— Yes, just about. Q.— Had you been in the habit of n'plenishing the other ves- sels of vour fleet from the Dolphin? A.— Yes. Q._l'n 18S(!. taking the supplies you had on the vessels you 40 have mentioned, how long did you arrangt for the cruise, a cruise o f the various vessels in your fleet? .\. — My inten- "•rn m lO 20 40 (.1. I). Wrtiit'U— Direct.) tion was to have Htayed in tlic Sea until about the end of Hepteniber. Q. — And talking tlie 8Ui)i)lies you luid, are you able to say that they would have held out for the full season? A. — Yes, plenty. Q. — Have you any doubt about that whatever? A. — No doubt whatever. Q. — And you so arranged? A. — Ho arranged. Q. — From year to year, would there be supplies over from the preceding season? A.— Oh, yes, she a' ways had some supplies over. Q.— Had the "Thornton" anything over and above the amount you put into her at CJayoqnot? A.— I could not say whether she had or not. Q— You liave no distinct recollection of what she had left there? A.— No. Q. — Did the vessels usually come in here with supplies left? A. — They generally had sui)plie8 left. Q.— What kind of supplies? A.— The kind of supplies that would do for another season, such as canned goods. Q. — And flour and biscuit? A. — The flour and biscuit, we used to try and get clear of. Q. — At the time the "Thornton" was seized how far away was your vessel that day? A. — About fiO miles. Q. — I believe you estimated that out on tlie cliart the other day, taking it from tli<» position given in the admisssion of facts as to the locality of the seizure, and your memorandum of the position of your own boat from a book which 30U have and whicli you will produce later on? A. — Yes. Q.— You were fiO miles from the "Thornton" that day? A. —Yes. Q. — Within what waters were you fishing in the season of 188()? A. — I think they were all pretty much around where we were. Q._Is that south of the Pribyloff Islands? A.— South of tlie Pribvloff Islands. (j._You kept a diary for 188(» and 1887, I believe? A.— Yes. Q. — And you have it in your hand now, have you not? A. Yes. Q._In that season of ]88« while on the "Dolphin" how often did you see tlie "Anna Beck" before the seiioiire? A.— Twice, I lielieve, as near as 1 can remember. Q.— And how often did you see the "drace" in tlie Behring jjlj>.,? A.— I think I only saw the "(Irace" once. SO Q.— And the once or twice. (i.— .\nd the (i.— And tlie 60 Onward?" A.— I saw the Onward either I think 1 saw her on two days. Favouril*'"? A.— I saw the "Favourite." l.aiira"? A.— I sjiw tlie "Laura." Q._Aiul the "Carolcna?" A.— I siiw the "<^irolena." Q._Vou saw .hem that year in the Beliring Sea? A.— Yes. il And these vesst-ls were in tlie habit of meeting on these sealing grounds? A.— Oli, yes, it was a common thing. Q._Are you able to sjiy if it was the habit then, and is the haltit to dav for »m«" vessi>l to supply another if the other ran short of material needed for the sealing cruise? A.— That is a common thing. Q. — It was a common thing? \. — Yes. fj. — And you towed th»> "Thornton" into Beliring Sea? A. —Yes. (j.—Wore you asked for a further stock of provisions for the "Thornton" then? .V.— I don't think so. (i. — Now. in these days of seal hunting, and on your ves- sels, outside of the ordinary provisions, what food was there ■ \ ii! il I I) 'i!rliiiii-.ii,i lO 3« 910 (.1. D. Waimi-^DIrict.) 118 a rule available for the ship's coinpan.v? Was there a jjood deal of lisli to be had? A. — Tlie vessels were equipped with lines and hooks for that purpose. Q. — And the Indians used to us» a jj;o(»d deal of seal meat, and sometimes so did (lie wiiites"' A. — Yes. Q. — What part of the seal? A. — The Indians would eat tlu' bod.v. the blubber of the seal, and the livers were usmI a ijood deal. Tlie Indians earned a good deal of drv halibut with them when they started out in those days. Q. — In lS8t>, which ship of your fl«'et took the extra supply of provisi(ms that you spoke of? A. — Well, I K<'n*'''nll.V took the vessel I was in myself, and 1 was on the "Dolphin." Q. — It is not what you generally did, but in 1886 did you arrange to take extra supplies on any vessel or for any ves- sel? A.— I did for tlie "Thornton." Q.— On whieh vessel? A.— On the "Dolphin." Q. — Sjx^aking roughly, can you at this time say about how 20 much would you be able to part with? A. — I had plenty of supplies to give any of them what they required. I could give the "Thornton" any supplies they would require. Q. — And your vessel came back without being short of pro- visions? A. — Yes. ii. — How many pounds would there be in a box of pilot bread? A. — A box at that time I think weighed about seventy [munds. They were larger than they make them now. Q. — And how many biscuits would that be? A. — Well, from memory I think it is alxtut 600. Q. — I see you cliarge five rides in this statement prepared at Ottawa, and marked "No. 17 for identification," can you explain that? A. — Is there not a credit of a rifle somewhere? Q. — You omitted to credit any rifle given to another ship? A. — Yes, I supjtose that is it. Q. — That is she started with five, and gave one rifie away to another ship, is that so? A. — I believe that is it. Q.— What did tliese rifles cost? A.— The Marlin, at tliat 40 time, as nt ar as I can iememl)er, were f4.'».70. Q. — These were the rifles on the "Thornton"? A. — Yes, there is another rifle wliich I bought at ^22, but I do not re- meml)er the name of it. Q. — What did the shot guns cost? A. — About f;{5 each, I suppose. (i. — You also put in your statement a thenuometer? Have you anything to say about that? A. — That thermometer was returned. Q. — There were some things in the inventory that were not in your claim. Now, in i-egard to an extra set of sails, have you any n'collecticm as to wliether the "Thornton" carri*^ an extra suit or not? A. — Was it an extra suit made espec- ially for that sliip? Q. — I see in the inventory taken by the TTnited States n«- thcirities the following: Three main sails witli one set of gear complet«s two fore sails with one set of gear complete, and one jii)? A. — Apprantly from that there was only one set of jibs, and more mainsails. Q. — Did you yourself see that extra set of sails put on? A. — I saw it on board of her. Q.— What would they cost? A.— The bill was f;?(>7, I think. Q. — Where were they stowed? A. — T dcm't know; some place in the hold. (J. — If there was not an extra suit, would there be found on her three mainsails? A.— Oh, theie was an extra suit; one SO ; k 10 9" (J. 1>. Waneu— Direct.) Hnit was repaired up, and the otlier was a new suit. One was an old Huit tliat liad been repaired up. (J. — Slie did not ordinarily earry three niainHailH, did she? A. — On the ooaHt, generally tarry but one suit. Q. — Wo that Hhe really had more than an extra suit? A.. — Yes. Her proper outfit was one mainsail. Hhe im\y put up one mainsail. T(tok the old suit along to save the new; used it in good weather. I didn't know myself there was three on b«»ard; there was two I knew. 8ir (\ H. Tui>per: — So far as I am instrueted, there were not thr«»e mainsails. He has no recollection of that; but there were two, the n'guhir mainsail and the extra mainsail. On the entry it is marked three and two, three mainsails and two other siiils, and (m«* jib; that is where the mistake is; if Ihey took that extra number and put down the jib below, it would make the statement tally. 20 The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — When you otrry «'xtra sails, what do y<»u geiH-rally carry? A. — The reason that the old sails was taken in this case The ('ommissi\'uireu— Diiett.) Q.— And yon My you UHiuilly cany #1'50 worth of stuff? A. rHiiall.v nirr.v about that much. (2. — IJow inau.y water tanks were there on hoard? A. — There was three. (i.— Are you |n)Hitive about tliese water tanks? A.— Yes, there was two hir^e ones and a small one. The small one was lashed on deck somewhere. 10 1 Q- — This is In addition to tlie water casks? A. — Yes, in addition to the water casks. Q. — How larfte were these water tanks? A. — Two of them would be 4(M> gallons. Q. — WherealxiUts were they on the "Thornton?" A. — Stowed in the hold. Q. — I won't take up any more time ex<'ept to ask what thesi» cost. A. — Well. thf*y coit about $2!i ajtiece, the large ones; thos;' snuill ones I paid $40 for two, f2t> each. Q. — What di A.— About Ji2(M) or fi50. Q.— You had the usual amount on her? A.— Yes, I had a good fair supply on her. (J. — There is a snmll item here for gnn implements and ^° tools, she carried those? A.— Yes, she carried them, re-load- ing tools. Q.__|!2;{, or a little over is charged th»>re, are you satisfied those were on board? A. — Yes. Q._That would be the value? A.— That would be the value abotit. Q._Xow, how many sealing boats had she? A.— She had foiir. Q.— Had she any ship'., boat? A.— No, I think not. O. — Then when you say boats, you ai-e referring to sealing Vmats? A. — Yes. Q.^How much did those boats cost? A.— With their rnuls, thev would cost at least, I should think, f 150 each. Q.— Where did you buy them? A.— Hought them at San Francisco. Q. — What was the price there? member it is ft(»(> each. (i.— When were these bought? A.— That spring. Q. — And you get the additional amount by the duty? A. S^ — Duty |i25, and freight and other exiMMises about fl5) each. Q.— And then the sails and oars for the four, how much would that be? A. — I paid |0 apiece for the sails, the oars would be perhaps about *2..10 a pair. (J. — And the "Thornton" carried four new sealing boats and outfit? A. — Four new sealing boats. Q. — Flow many water casks were on the "Thornton"? A. — Well. 1 couldn't just say from memory, I suppose she had about eight, eight or ten. 60 Q. — There wer«' eight in the inventoi"y. How mncli would these be worth? \. — Oh, perhaps f2.5ti .-.JMece. Q. — What is salt a ton, can you tell the price per ton? A. — Well, it varies; I suppose about |15 a ton. Q. — When you bought it by the i)ound? A. — I l)elieve about three-quarters of a cent. Q. — How much in a sack? A. — There would be two hun- dred weight, English measurement. 40 A. — As near as I can re- 913 lO 20 30 A.— No. -Harry 40 SO 60 (J. !►. WuiTen— Direct.) Q. — TIh'w Hnt'kH, it swras in tli« inventory, were 400i»ound (UicltH? A. — \o. tijcy wotild be two hundred weight. y._You do not recollect wliiit tliey were? A.— Tliat is wliiit tlie wicliH would be, two hundred wei^lit. Q.— What di;ot a cluirge for cool^iii^ ranjje and utensilw. W'luit did you pay for those about? A. — .\bout fno. Q. — What was the lay of the hunters on the "Thornton"? A. — The lay of the hunters that year, I lielieve, was fl.5(> a B]{in. Q. — AVliat did you pay the master? A. — The master was |50 a month and a lay on the sliins as well. (J. — What was that? .\. — F am not positive whether it- was 12J cents or whether it w is more. Q. — Huntei-s, fL.'iO for eacli r'nr seal; boat pullers, 50 cents for each fur seal; that lay would be nil the boat pnller would pet ? .\ . — Yes. (i. — I mean lie would l(ll,,t 914 (J. I>. Wmii'u— l)lr«»t.) Q. — At nny nito Mh- pn.v of the rt'st wiih <«4(> a month? A. — The other iinitcH. I thiiiK', were about |4(l. H. — What wciv the crt-w paid ontsich* of tlu' liiinters and Imat-pnlhTH? A.— They wouhl >r»'t about $'.W or f:»r»; it wouhl varv; f'\i't f(»r ordinary Mailorn. The CoiunilHHloncr on the part of the I'nitcd Stati'H: — How many wcrt* liniiti'rM and how man^' were boat-puUers? Hir <'. H. Tnpjter: — II besides the master and nmte. The rommissloner on the part of the Vnited States: — How many liunters? Sir C. n. Tnp])er:— Four hunters and six bontpnlh-rs. Two Indians were hunters. Witness:— There slioukl be eigiit. two to eaeh boat. t). — Morrison, was )ie a Ininter or a boat puller? A. — Ue 20 was a hunter. One ctf the Clevelauds was u boat-puller. n in a boat? A. — Three men. (i. — And those were called boat-pullers? A.— One would be a sttM'rer and the other a jtuller. Q.— There were a crew of thirteen men besides the nuister and male? A.— Yes. that is right. I believe. Q.- When did the "Thornton" finally sail on her Jtehrinf,' Sea trip? What was the date from Clayocpiot? A.— I think it was about the 27th of May. Q— You have got that entry in that book there, have you 30 not? A.— (Examining)— The "Thornton" left on the 27th. Q.— In 1887 you wore In Ounalaskn. were vou not, again? A. — ^'es. Q- — That is the year you were seized? the year I was seized. Q.— You saw the "Thornton" at that time. Now, tell the Commissioners what her condition w.ts. how she was lying there, what care was being taken of her? A.— She was just hauled onto the beach and left there. The tide came up and left her dry at low water, at high water it came around her. Q. — Had she t)een much dejtreciated since her seizure? A. — There had been nothing done to her at all; she was just lying there open to the weather. (J. — What was the condition of the copper? \. — And the water at that time w.is leaking down into the boiler and en- gine. Q. — In what condition was the copjH-r; was it chafed? A. — The copi)er was chafed considerably. t^. — And how were tbt" deck seams? A. — The deck seams 50 would be open there laying to the weather that way. Q. — Is that the way the water got into the machinery? A. — Tliat is the way the water was leaking through onto the nnichinery. (J. — In what condition was the machinery and boiler? \. — All rusted up; in bad condition. (^. — This was in July, 1^y would want to take tim- ber, 80 as to get her off the beach. A. — Yes. that is 40 lO 20 30 40 50 Co 915 (.1. I>. Wiinvii— IHit<(.) Q.— NV«'i»' Hum •re liny ui«>aiiH jIh-h' tivail)ihl<> for taking t\w. ^ • A. — None that I know of. (i— What would it have con) about, if von ran jfive a rongli idea, (o take a crew np, and K»'t a vchhcI' like tlu' "Tlnu-nton" off and Ininjr Imt lunn*'? A.— Well, it wonid Inivc Hpoilcd IKMMt. I think, to put Iut in HhaiM'. take men np and take her away. Q.— Now, one tineHtion. captain, aH to the natnre of tiie KUpidieH. WliiK did yon jait on the "Th(n'nt(»n." what kind of HuppJieH? A.— Well, it would he canned nu'ats. Halt meats, rice, heunH, Hour, tuscnit, tea, coffee. HUKar, lard, ham or bacon. Koniethinji in that line, a variety of IhiiiHH that \n pretty hard to mention; I think I have mentioned about all. Q. — And yon perHonally attended to the Hiipplyin^ of vch- selft that I nnMitioned today did von in tlumc other yeaiH? A.— Yes Q.— All of them? A.— All of them. Q- — Have they Hiipplien and jirovisicmK at Onnalaska? A. — I believe a |>erson can get them there. I iinderntood ho. (■}. — Yon never had occaHion to pet them tliere? A. — No, I never had any occasion to get any. Q. — Yon have been In tliere? A. — T w;s in there when I was seized. Q. — Do yon know of any other places for snjiplies? A. — Sand Point, but T had no occasion to po in there for any. That is outside, befor(> they po in oi- .-ifter they come out; I never had occasion to po (liere foi- any. Q. — Yon liavi' pone in for coal and water, have yon not. at different places? \. — T have pone in there for water. Q. — AYliere did you go in for water? A. — T think 1 had one vessel go into Sand Point. Q. — I mean in the sea? .\. — T got water one time a little further to tbe westward than Ounalaska. Q. — What tonnage was the "Dolphin?" gistered fifl. Q. — What could she carry, a large amount? Q. — Dead weight? A. — Dead weight. The OoiiimiHHioner on the part of Her MajuBty: — Net regis- ter? Witness: — Net register was (50 and a fraction. Q. — What have you carried? A. — Coal. Q. — How much? A. — MM) tons. Q. — So she had ample accommodation then for her own supplies and su])plies besides? A. — Yes. Q. — Did you frecjuently supply youi' other vessels out of her? A. — Well, sometimes, very s»'ldoin they wanted any- thing; 1 freciuently gave them some articles they might wiint. Q. — She and the "(irace" were about the same size; they were the largest of yonr tleet? A. — The "Orace" was larger than her. Q. — Was the "Grace" much larger? A. — She carried 20 tons more. Q. — But the "Dolphin" was your own ship; I mean the one yon sailed in? A. — She was my fancy one. Hy the rommissioner on the part of the Thiited States: — Captain, how long would a suit of sails last in this bust ness? .V. — About three years. Q.— What would it cost to retit this "Thornton?" 1 do not mean the outfit; but you say you thoroughly retit every autumn; how much did it cost each year to retit, take the A —She was re A.—l.-^O tcniR. r M W :! ■I ■' f 10 20 30 910 (J. 1). Wuii-eii— Direct.) "Thornton" for inst;infO? A. — Woll, she would eost, oh, 1 Kliould say — Q. — I am 8|M'akinfj sinipl.v of the vesKel herself, to make jiood her wear and fear? A. — F think she would take fully !j>l,(l()(> a year, one year with another; one year she mi^ht not take so much and another a f^ood deal more. Q. — Do you mean tlie wear and (ear would be as much as that? A. — The runniufr irear is a jtood deal and the sail is a flood deal, an.l then they have to be tliorout;lil\ overhauled and repaired, and if tliey require any caulkiu};. to get it. and once in a few years have to i»ut in new chattinjj;, and overhaul them. Q. — Do you mean a vessel of the size of the "Thornlon" would take that? A.— 1 think she would take fully Ihat. Q. — That would represent the wear and tear, would it? A. — Yes, I think she would take about that; the sealinf; busi- ness is a i»retty hard business on these little vessels. Q. — It is not so hard as the cod fishing luisiness on the Banks, is it? .\. — Well, T don't know. It is a pi'etty hard business. The best part of it is the IJehriiiK f!ea by all means. Dired examination by Sir C. U. Tu|»per continued: Q. — As a matter of fact, were the hunt«'rs and crew i»aid after coniini; to San Francisco and Vi<'toria? A. — They w(>re all paid. Q. — And the passjip^ money fnuu Victona to San Fran- cisco? A. — Yes. the jtassafje money was paid. I don't know whether that included the whole. Q.— Well, there is JfllOT.Ki charged? A.— That was paid to the steamer coiu]>any for ])assafie. (i. — I'assjjRe money and expcns«'s of Thomi»son and the mate, Xorman, are charjied here? A. — Tlu're is some mis- take in that; T have s<'en that. Q.— You say that is only |!100 that was |)aid? ".-It 40 should be. T think. ^100 foi- the two; the ordinary i>assaKe was ^50, and it must have been intended to be $100 for the two instead of $100 ajaeco. Q.— At any rate, the rijjht sum is $100? A.— Yes. I should say so. Mr. Warren: — When you asked liiiii if the wafjes were paid up to what tinu' did you mean? Sir ('. If. TupiM-r: — I said up to tlie time of the seizure. 50 Was that ridit? were they paid up to the time nf the sei/, ui-e? .\. — III l.'>!St! I am not sure wlielhei' we jiaid them until they arrived home or not. O. — You ai'e siii'e they were paid? .\. — They were settled with and ]>aid up. ii. — You have cliarffcd $1.'!70. would that be tiie amount? A.— Yes. aid for fverv skin brought on board, no matter whetii 60 ,.!• seized ol- not. Till' ("onimissioiier on the part of tlie I'liitfd States: — Wliat is the piactice under the K'ljrlisli (ia>r, Mr. Teters where a vcnscI is lost or c;iptured: is it to (»ay tlie crew to the time of the cap! lire and expenses home, or to pay tliem up to tlie time they li :l''Ii iioine? Mr. Teters:— If i^■ a ipiestion I cannot answer olT hand, m If lO d'7 (J. 1). WiiiTcii—DiiTcl— Cross.) Tlu> <'(nmiiisHi(nu'r on the pjirl of tiic IhiiliHl StaU's: — With lis flu'v pa.v the wafjt's iij) to the (itnc of the loss and pay cx- IM'1181'8 llOlIK'. Mr. IVters: — I would no! like to answer lliat otT hand. The ("oniniissioncr on the ]tart of (lie rnilcd- States: — My Icanu'd associarc thinks it is tlic same here. Direct examination b\ Sir (',. H. Tnpper continued: Q. — You charge IjfuOO exix-iist's at Silka in connection witli the st'izure of tlie "Tliornton," , what does that mean? A. — Leftal exiM'iises. (i. — Yes? lA'iinl exiM'HHes at Sitka in connection with the seizure? A. — Well, the captain enipi>>yed a lawyer U|> there or a tiiin, and il ap|>ears that they had arranp'd to appeal tht'se cases an 1 1>,' drew on me for Iji.'SOO. 20 Q. — That is tlie reason you charfjed tiiat? As a matter of fact you have not i)aid it? A. — [ didn't jtay il. lie has Iwen paid some money that we thought was rifjht ; I told him I had i>ut the claim in, and if it was allowed he would fjet it. Q. — Who was that? A. — t'lark, I forget the name. (j. — Now, th(>re is a charge of $";")(( for counsel and other h'gal fees and exjK'nses in and about claims arising from the seizure, what does that refer to? .\. — That refers to the en- gagement of Helyea. (i. — That is in connecti(Hi with this "Thornton?" A. — 3 With the "Thornt(m." y. — Travelling, hotel and other necessary ex|K'nses in con- nection with the said seizure and claims, f 1,(100, is that abulk sum that you jiut in? t^. — .lust a bulk sun\. Q. — Where did you go in connection with this; what diM'S that travel cover, from hei-e to where? A. — ^I have been a couple of times east. ti— Do you mean Ottawa? A.— To Ottawa. (i. — Have you been to Sitka? A. — I have been to Sitka; 4° over the Sound (wo or three (imes. Q. — And NYashington? A. — .\n(l (o NYashington, yes. Q.— In ISJIO, I believe? A.— I am not sure of the date. Q. — Washington, the capital of the I'nited Sta+es? A. — I know I was (here, bu( I don't know the date. Cross-examination by Mi'. Dickinson: Q. — Captain, you charged f 1(100 for eX|K'nses travelling, «'ic., in the "Thornton" case? .\. — 1 have charged it there. 5° (2. — Now, when did von begin (o (ravel in the "Thornton" case? ISHT? .\.— lii (he fall of 1SS7. (i. — .\( (ha( (inie had von also a claim as lo (he "Dolphin?" A.— Yes. (i. — .\ml some live olher claims? N'mir oilier ships? .\. — ■ Yes. (J. — Did you go on business for (he odier live ships? .\. — Well, I w<'n( on (lie business of all of (lieni. I suppose. (i. — And you charge for I i-a veiling expenses #100 in eai'h Qq case? \. — I don'( jiis( rememlx'r what i( is in (he other cases. (i. — Hut you w«'nt on (he business of all (lie seizures of 1SS7 (ogedier widi (lia( of (lie "Tliornlon" in I8S(;? A.— Y.'H. (i.— Yon charged (he #1000 in (lie "TIiorn((m" case. You don't mean to say, d<» you. Captain \\'aii-en, dial you expend- ed #1000 in (ravel for' tl Thornlon?" A.— No, I haven't stated that: I spent #1,0(10 and considerabh' (ime. t Sv m lO 20 30 91P (J. D. Wp .Tt'ii— Cross.) Q. — You undertook all y »ur ilaims fogother wlu-n you w«Mit to Ottawa? A. — Wli m I went to Ottawa, yes. Q. — Now, «litl the owne- s of the otiier ships contribute to- ward your exjH'nses? ... — They did in one trip contribute toward it. Q. — And how much lid they contribute? A. — I don't re- member now what '^icy did jiay nie; I think it was flOO or sonietliinj;. ii. — find eac'..' A. — I (Idii'l Hunk it was as nuicli as that. Q. — Did y a ('liarfjc liiciii tor all your expenses? A. — I charjied then a jtroportion for one trij* t<» Ottawa. (-i. — Did yon cliar>ie yourself your proportion? .\. — Yes. Q. — Are yod sure about that? Youi' i)roportion in all the ships you weic interested in? A. — I charged sonu' of (hem. (.]. — <'an you jiive us any clearer idea tlian that? A. — I don't know; let me see; I can't j>ih( reniembt'r how that claim was ma, I think, any way. Q. — Vow where is the book you kept of your trading sta- tion and your shipjting in 181^1? A.— Flere in town. Q. — You ha\- got it y<'t? A. — Yes, sir. H. — That will disclose your iiaymenls for this auxiliary 60 steam? \. -That would show a good deal of it. and a good deal of it is mixed. II. — And if you have lost your voucheis you have not lost your books? A. — No, air. Q. — .\nd you kept an acccuinl, did you not, in your books of the supplies with whicli the tiading stations weie stocked? A. — Yes. I expect i:(>\ tried to. t^. — That shows by your bonks, docs it not? A. — res. 9"9 Pf I'V 10 20 30 40 50 60 (J. 1). Wan-cii— Cross.) Q.— And also it shows the tost that you have Kivuu as |a,500, without your own labor, uiton the 'Thorutou?" A.— It shows what I eau fiud of it. y.— Do you ki't'p regular hooks of account? A.— Well, it was this way: A good deal of tlie accounts in tlic? Ixtoks were running accounts with people, and it is pretty hard ut this late day to pick it oui Q.— Have you tried? A —I have been trying to, and it is pr<'tty hard to do it. *i— You did not pay out any money, did you, captain, with- out entering it in your books? A.— I don't suppose I would. Q— Vou had books of entry that vou kept daily, did you not? A.— Yes. Q. — Did you keep a ledge;? A. — W'S. Q. — You kept a ledger and day book, d'd you not? A. — Yes, 1 kept them as well as 1 could. Q. — Did you keep a cash book? A. — Yts. Q. — Did you keep a bank account? A. — Yes, I think I kept a bank iiccount. (■i. — Xow. do your books also show what you paid for the "Thornton" when you bought her? A. — In the first place? Q. — Yes. A. — No, I don't think 1 kept any books then. (i.--Did you lake a bill of sale of her? A. — Yes. Q. — Have you got the bill of sale? A. — No, I can't find it. C). — She w.is in pretty bad shajie when you bought her, was she not, captain? An old 'tH boat, pretty rotten and full of holes? A. — nought in '(14. Q. — Was she in pretty bad shajjc? A. — No, she was in pretty fair shaj)e. (.1. — She had been knocked about a. gmtd deal even then, hadn't she? A. — She had been freighting a good deal. (i.— What year was it vou put the f:{,5(H) on her? A. — The y(>ar "77; rtiiished u]) in '78, commenced in '77. Q. — Was she pretty rotten then? A. — No, she was pretty !<()und. Q. — I don't nu'an when yon ptit the auxiliary steam in her; I Jim speaking of when you put the IJ !,5()() out on her? A. — Yes. Q._Did you enlarge her? A.— Nw. Q. — Yet she was ]»retty sound? A. — She was pretty sound; a few of her knees were gone down under the decks. Q._She had been sealing before? A.— Sh > had been K-aling, yes. . , ., Q._She had been chopped into some; some holes in lier. A. — I guess tlial didn't hurl her much. Q.— Had she been wrecked? A.— Slie got a.-,nt inior lo tiie lime liiat you put I lie ifli.r.OO out on li,.,._y„u say you piii ilial in her about '77? A.— No; I think' this is aVterwaids; I think it was in '«{. ^ Q._l|;id sh.' not Ikvu wreckt-d before you put the «;.{,:)(«) into her, Caitlaln Warren? A.— No. Q.— Had not been asluirn? A.— No. Q._llow man.v limes has th<' "Thornton" been wrecked. \.__\Vell, 1 don't know as she ever was wrecked. She got ashore some lime, and il cost me considerable lo g<'l her off. Q._Wher.' was thai? A.— Down at the mouth of Barclay Sound. , , ., ,. 1 Q- Did that hurt her aiiv? A.— T don t know as il did. Q__How long was slie on? .V.— \V"1I, I can liardly say; perhaps a UKmlh. We had t<. send i.eoi)le down from here to gel her f business so that y«tu cannot get dupli- cate vouchers from them. That was your own money, was it not? A.— Yes. Q. — Your business? A. — Well, it belonged Vo some of the family; it didn't Ix'long to me. Q. — Had you no interest in it? A. — No. Q. — Who had? A. — It belonged to my wife. ii. — That is the concern that is gone out of business, is it? A. — They haven't gone out of business altogether, but so far as that yard is concerned, it went (Uit of business. I cajj't find the day book, or the blotter, where they entered the daily work on. t^. — Did the "Thornton" do any freighting for the James Itay <"omi>anv? A. — Yes, sometimes. (.1. — What years? A. — 'sr» is when they started; I sup- ])os<' they did freighting most anv year, aft»'r thev started. Q.— Did the "Thorntim" do freighting? A.— She did some, yes. Q. — She did not go on the coast sealing in 1885, did she? A. — Oh, yes, she Wi'iit sealing. y. — And when did she — if the James Hay Coal t'any started in IHH.") when did she do freighting for the James Bay 40 Coal Company? A.— In the winter and fall of 1885. Q. — After she came back from sealing? A. — After she came back from scaling, they started the yard in the fall of '85, and I think <]uile likely slie carried some i-ini\. Q. — And just the date again when the auxiliary steam was put in as distinguished from the |;{5()(» expenditure? A. — That was in '81. ti. — And then when slie went ashore slu' had the steam on? A. — Slie had Ihe steam, ,is near as I can rememb«>r; I am pretty siii-e that was in ".s:{ that slie drove ashore down there. her when she went ashore? A. — 30 50 60 Q. — Did the crew leave Yes. Q. — And liow did you g<'l to go down and put sonic Q. — Now do you not lliiiik she wiis on that months instead of a month as stated bv vou? her ott? A. — (lot s(Mne men here ways under lier and hmnch her off. beach three A.— I don't -She A.— No. I don't know just how long slie was on that beach. t^.— Was she not then' two moullis and a half? may have been. ii. — .\nd exposed somewlial (o Ihe sea? think she was exjtosed iiiiicli (i.— What time of the year was it, Captain Wan-en? A. — AN'ell, it was the sumiiiei- time she was on there, it was the last of the sealing; we got her olT there before the bad wea- ther canu on. C^.- <"iiii you tell us from this map of the southwesteni jMirt of Mrilisl'. Colmnbiji. Cajdain Warren, where she went m 30 it 921 (J. I). Wiini'ii— Cioss.l on? A. — (Kxaminin;?) — 1 Ihiuk she \v«'iil on about tliere (indicating). Q.- -Hoinewherf near Glayoquot Sound, was it not? A. — • (indicating) 1 supjMtse this is Teinplai- Ishuul; it was inside of that, on tiiis line over here (indicating). Q. — Wliat month in the summer was this? A. — I tliink as near as I can tell it must have been about -lune; it was 10 the latter part of the sealing. Q. — Hhe was engaged in sealing at the time? A. — She was engaged in sealing. Q. — ('oast sealing? A. — Yes, then I was waitiMfi, until the finest weather of the summer to get her off. i}. — Did the crew come from X'ictoi-ia? A. — I (hink so. (i. — And how wer'' they brouglit down? A. — 1 supjiose likely brought on the other ves.sel; I don't retnemln'r the par- ticulars of it. Q. — You do not remember what vessel brought thejn 20 down? A. — No. Q. — Can you not fix the date by your settlement with the crew? A. — I think it is doubtful. Q. — Your books would show that, would they not? A. — Kind of dimbtful if they would show a settlement of that kind. Q. — Now, in regard to your vouchers, the statement that you made at Ottawa to which Sir ('harles calle Q._Was not the "Thornton," and your dealings with tlie "Thornton," involved in those litigations? .V.— The outfit of the "Thornton" in tliat litigation was not brought into court. Q.— Hut the "Thornton" was involved in that litigation? A.— The "Thonilon" herself. Q. — Then you don't mean to b.' understood that in the liti- gation all yiiur cviilence disaii]»eared or was lost regarding the "Thoiiiton" out lit? A.— .\ bout those vouchers of the "Thornton." I don't ifutciuber what bet.une of them. ^O Q.- Tliey did not disappear in tii.- litigation? A.— I don't hardly think llml llie "Thornton's vouchers went into court; that is, the outfit. Q.— .\nd when was that litigation? A.--Tt commenced in 1kkeeper «-arried out your instructions and entered them? A. — 1 e.xpect she did. Q. — Have voi: not look(>d to ascertain as to the amounts involved in .\our claim against the Fi'ited Slates? A. — As a general thing I looked through the accounts. Q. — You have looked at the books to asceitain and refresh your memory, have you not? A. — In 188(i J didn't 1 ave much to do with the books. Q. — But sine*' 18S(! you have been ]>resenting claims to your own Government? A. — 1 have looked at the books con- siderable. Q. — And in connection with making up youi claims, Tiav > yon not? A. — Y'es. 20 30 At o p.m. the ronimissioners rose. i!'l|l:| OommisaionerB under the Convention of February 8, 1896, between 40 Oreat Britain and the United States of America Chambers of the Legislative i^ssembly, At Victoria, December, 29, 1896. At l(t:;iO a.m. the Commissioners took their seats. John Andersen was called as a witness on the jtart of CJreat Britain and duly sworn. (Callek8 ago on some schooner. lo Q. — He went out staling? A. — Out sealing. Q. — Do you remember any of the other hunters? A. — No, I do not I'emember. (.1. — Did you have a white crew or an Indian crew? A. — An Indian crew. Q. — Where did you get the Indians? A. — We got them in Dodge's Vow. Q. — By the way, do you happen to know what place the man Davie lias gone to? A. — It must have been over to the Japan coast. Q. — You liad been sealing one year before, had you not? A. — I was in the "Favourite'' in 188(>. Q. — What w\'iie!'e was yoiii- ship put? .\. — We were just lying at anchor. 50 1 Wv 1 ;; ■. : • 1; i : t ■ I ■ ■i!i'iii.i at on 30 924 (.lolin Andersen — Direct.) o you remember a watchman beinsj put on board 10 !''"? A.— I do not rei.. ember that tiiere was a watchman board. (i.— A( any time after the seizure? A,— There was a man ♦came, but lliat was aftr-r we start.'d away from Ounahiska. Q.— ITow hinff were yon at Onnahiska? A.— I liave for- jrotten now. Q.— After beiiif,' Wwiv for a lime, yon say lliat the man went witli yon somewliere? A. — Yes, to Siika. (^— Who was (he man? A.— He was tlie quartermaster, I believe, from ilie cutter. 20 (i.— How did you go to Mitiia with this fiuartermaster? A. — We saih'd there. Q.— And all the rest of the crew on board? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — Indians loo? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did they remain on board when you were at Ounalas- ka and start from there to Sitka with this (imirtermaster in charge? A. — Yes. Q. — When you got to Sitka where did you go? A. — I stayed on board. ti. — Did your vessel come to anchor or go to the wharf? \. — She came to anchor. Q. — What occurred theie? A. — Nothing. We stayed on board for a little while there. Q. — Did this (luarterinaster leave you? A. — I do not re- member if lie went on shore or if another man came on board. 1 cannot tell you. Q. — Was some one on board from the cutter? A. — Y'es. Q. — As far as you recollect, whether he remained or some one else came in his stead, there was some one else there in 40 chai'j,e outside of your crew? A. — Yes. ii. — How long did you remain at Sitka? A. — I think about a week. Q. — And during that week you remained on board? A. — Yes. Q. — W^ere there any rules in regard as to when you could go on shore, or could you go ashore when you liked, or come back? A. — AVe couhl go when we liked. Q. — That is your recollection? A. — Yt's, sir. Q. — Were you ashore, as a matter of fact? A. — We used to go ashore in the day time. i}. — What time did you go back? A. — In the evening. Q. — How did you go ashoie? A. — In tlie boats and ca noes. Q. — \Yere strangers g w<'!it with you? A. — Four (U' five more. Q. — From tlu- "Sayward?" A.— I do not think there was any one from the "Sayward." Q. — You v,'ere the only one from the "Sayward" that j'ou remember? .\. — Yes. Q. — Relore you went to .Ttineau did you take any food from the shiii? A.— Just a little. Q. — Flow many boats with yon? .S. — Four. Q.— Who took food? .\.--i look it from the "Savward." 50 ■, \ 13 20 9-i (.loliii Andcim'ii— Diir.M— C'loMs.) Q.— What was it? A.— A littU' laiuu'il beef aud biscuits, and oiu> tiling jiud auutlici-. ^i— ^V'l" Kiivt- it to you on the "Sayward?" A.— I do not rcnuMnlM'r who jjavi- ii to us. Q.— Did ;\-ou ju- tala- it? A.— I d.> not iciucniltLT wht'lh- t-r [ (ooiv it or wlu'liit r Honu- oiu' els* did you ^o to .Muk-uu on? A.— A little schooner. I i^~\^ ''I* ''■'"' '•'■"^■''""K «'"' H'lioonci? A.— I don-t know; 1 torgt't the man s name. 1 •/.(".' *'',V"' ""•'""■'<"'« provide it? A.— Oh, no; it was a little trading Kchooner. (i.— That .voii got I'assage on? A.— Yes. (i.— Did yon jiay for it yoiir.s.'lf? A.— I just worked mv passage, (hat is all. (i.— \'ou worked your passage fioin Sitka to Juneau? A. ■ — Yes. (i.— How far is tliat? A.— I don't know how manv miles, but it takes about a week's time. li.— What did you do in .Tuneau? .\.— I worked in the Btanip mill at Douglas Island for a little while. (i.— Did you work there to get money to come home? A.— Yea. .»at (hat arrived here fr(»ni the i! that came back in October, that came liack in ()ct<»ber, tl).' 10 20 .1. \). WiUTl'U— CrOMH.) A. — I (htii't know gi6 (John AiKh-iHcu — C'ikhm. Hchrini; Sea In the month of NovcnilMT? iiM I c'onhl. il — How (little it tliat von cxiicctcd to slii.v in the Sea nntil sncli lime an .vcni onl.v wonid he iil)lt> (o rcacii Victoria in Xo- vcnibcr. when the nianapn- of tlic tied cxiM'clt'd to p't liac-k Konic lime in Hcj.tcnilMT? A.— Tliiil in what we sailors cal- tulalt'd; we intcndeil to be hack ahoiit October. Q.— Yon do not moan to my that vou heard tliat expreission from the mana^^er of tin- tieot? A.— Oli, no; tliat is wluit we ima>.rined, tliat is all. Q— Von do not base that on any exiiieHsion that von heard the captain or Mr. Warren nse? A.— No. Q.— Yon said that von were deck hand on the "Favonrito" in ]88<(? A.— Yes. Q Where w-oro yon tliat year? A. -Down here on the coast, that is all. Q.— Yon were not in Rehrine: Sen? \ — No is?r7^T ^T ""! "" t''^ "Fnvonrite" in BehrinK Sea in 1886? A.— No, not in the Behring Sea. ' .1. I 30 40 S=> 60 James 1). Warren, a witness called on the part of Great Britain lu the case of the "Thornton/" recalled for cross-ex- amination. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson continued: (i.— Can yon now (ix the year that the "Thornton" was ashore.' A.— She went on shore in June, 188;{, and was L'ot ott in August, 1SH;{. ^ Q.— She was abont two and one half months there' A — les, as near as I can place it. (i.— Now, in the year 188;$, after she was f^ot off, did vou liave anything to do witli reference to the "Thornton" with Joseph Boscowitz, Victoria? A. — In 188.1? Q.— Yes, sir. A.— It is most likely I had. Q.— In the fall of that year yon tjave Jos<'ph Boscowitz a inortKase for .54.()0(t? A.— Yes, sir; it was abont tiiat; I think so; abont that time, I think. Q.— That was after she got off? A.— That was after she tfot off. Q.— And that was the year that yon had the dealing with Boscowitz. tlw same y<'iir she pit oH? A. — Yes, the same year. Q.— I see yon have a map in yonr hand; does that one suit yon to show where the vessel went ashore? A. — Yes; some one told me I stated at Barclay Sound yesterday. If I did, it was T'layoqiKit. Q.— That i.t what I was tryiii;,' to }ret yon to say. and yon insisted that it was Barclay Sound. Please explain now where she went ashore? A. — Slie was cominji into (Mayo- qiiot Sound, witliont steam, I understand. As near as I can jilace it slie went on tlie sand flats off the bay. It is a shoal there. Q. — Captain Warren, I followed yon atteiitivt'ly yesterday, and because T am in some confusion of mind myself I assume tliat the learned <"oniniissioTiers may be. and I have endeav- ored to arrive at some metlMtd of examiniii};' yon with ih'- fjard to the property on th<' ship tliat was taken. My method shall be as bri.'f as possible. Will yon be }jood enoiifrh to look at tlie inventory which is in evidence as |tart of Exhibit 45 G.B. — look at page 22 of that exhibit and the following 9^7 piiKCN, iiiitl ti'll iiif to tlif ItfHt of ,v<)Ui- kiiowltMl^)' and belief wliftlicr all or that in-opi'rt.v wan on tlu> Hliip at tlic tini*' of tlic Hciznif? A. — I Ncc tliicc hoatK in one phuv, and tiwiv slionhl have )><'<>n four. ii. — l-ook tliroiifilioiit. I sinipl.v ask von wlictlicr till the pro|M'rty tlicro j^ivon was on I lie sliip, to llic l»'st of voiir kno\vlc(l;,'c and iH-licf; not wlictlii'r tlicrc is anv oniittt-d. Inif lO wlu-tlMM' to the best of .voni' knowlodp' and lu'licf all that l»ro]»ci"tv was on I he whip as inventoried there? A. — I see twelve tons of coal; I wonid not like to sav thei-e were 12 tons left at that time. Of ecnirse I w(Hild not say thi're were not. Of conrse. so far as the sealskins were eoncern- ed, from jK'rsonal knowledjfe I cannot say as to them. I see some of these things rejx'aled in that list. I see thi'ee boats are in one place and fonr boats in another. Q. — Fonr boats was correct, was it? A. — Foiir wonId be coirect. 20 Q, — Anythin,'! else? A. — Thert> nniy be some things »'«'■ peated and others that I have misH<'d. Thei-** is one item liere (»f one hundred pounds of lard. As far as I can find in my books, I do not find one hundred ])onnds charp'd to ber. I think I can only find six boxes of bread charfjed in the books; I have no doubt the boat must have had considerable more bread than that on board, but I connot And the entries. Q. — I will come to that branch of the matter in a moment. What I want to know now is whether, to the best of your knowlcdfie. these thinfjs were on the ship. To the best of ^ yoiir knowledfje and belief were the three sails on the ship? A. — The three sails? Q. — Yea. A. — I cannot say positively, but there were two nniinsails. Q. — Oujjht not you to know where the other sails came from? A. — I can only account for it in this way. In the sitrinp she came out with a new suit, and she mi^ht have had an old extra mainsail for fear of accident. i}. — Have you not fjiveu that matter any attention? A. — ^"^ I cannot tell; it would be a second-hand sail, anyway. Q. — It would not be worth much? A. — It would not be a valuable sail. Q. — Is there anythiufj else you want to call attention to that you wotild not like to say was on the ship to the best of your knowledfic? A. — There niipht be other things re- jH'ated which in t;*''"tr <)ver that list I mi};lit miss. Q. — Toll ns what was on the ship that you know (^f that was not on that inventl before this. I supjjose the guns and amunition are not in this inventory at all. They are gener- ally taken oft" at the time of seiztire. (J. — Turn now to page r>() of this exhibit, Nn. 45, and state, does not this contain a proper account of the guns? A. — I think likely. SO 60 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) // ^>. : hard for me t(» state that without comparing what went on board of her. (i. — You have not don«' that? A. — No, I don't think it has Imhmi all c«mipaivd, n(»t as far as I am concerned; some of the things, I believe, have been compared. They looked up the rifles and guns. ii. — I'pon this claim, do you ]>ropose to put in a compnri- 20 Hon later? You say they are beinp htoked up? A. — I said that some of the articles have lieen compared, but I do not know that all of them have been. (i. — You found no discrepancy in the statement made, ex- cept those which are in favor of your account here? A. — Home of these things wen- found. (J. — And y«)u make up your inventory — y<»ur estimate of the values in gi'oss, of supplies? A. — I don't know whether the whole thing is made u]» yet or not. Q. — IMd you make it up for this hearing? A. — I have not, but I don't know what the s«»licitor may have done. Q. — You have not made it up? A. — I assisted the man nniking it u]), and I suppose he has flnish(>d on the ship? A. — No, I thought that would be for after consideration. ii. — You said you had two guns credite«l back; how were they credited back? A. — I think oiu' of the guns is credited to one of the <»ther ships and charg4>d to the other. (i. — Did you get back any of (he guns mentitmed in the inventorv, in Kxhibit 15? A. — Did I get any of tiie guns back? t^. — Yes. \. — I do not (hink I did; I don't remember. (i. — Is t!iere anything in that schcnluh' or inventory that \o» did get back? .\. — Is the chronometer In that? (i.— Yes. A.— I got that back. (f. — .\nd you have so stated already. V.xt is there any- thing else you got back? \, — I cannot remember; I don't think it. 40 50 60 929 30 (..J. D. Warien — Cross.) Q.— Did you atleiid tlie wile? A.— Of lh«'H«> num": Q,— Yes' A.— I «!o ii<..l Imnllv tliiuk tluit the "Tlioiiitoii" was in tlieiu. Q.— Vou do uot think that \\w "Thornton" was in them? A. — I cannot wiy now, if tlie nmw of the "Tliomton" in 1887 wei-e there; 1 ani not positive. Q. — N«»w, vf>u sji.v you di> not know as to the number of • o seals. The !o(j that you pn>duc<'d yesterday contains a state- ment of tlie catch, does it not? A.— I think likely it mi^ht; 1 would not Ix' i>rtsitive now whether th«> seals were in them or not. I see there was an inventory of other things. Q. — Will you {(lease state. Captain Warren, from whom you received that lop that you tctok when you took it to Ot- tawa? A. — Really, I am not positive, but I rather expect that I iH'rliaps pot it fr<»ni the marshal at Sitka. Q. — Can you tell me when yon took it to Ottawa? \. — I do not rememlMM' if it was the first trip, l)ut I think it was 'O the second.. Q. — But you did have it? A. — I must have taken it there. Q. — You don't remember the fact that you pot it at Sitka? .V. — I think tlia. is the way I must have pot it. I do not re- uieml>er any otlier way. Q. — You went up to Sitka, did not you? A. — In the sprinp »(f 1888, and if I remember aripht 1 p«>t the lop and pot the chronimu'ter. I rather think I pot a s(>xtant. Q. — Anythinp else? A. — That Is all I remember now. Q. — Were you fnMjnently ;it Sitka in these years? A. — No, not frequently. Q. — Had y<»u ever been at Sitka before you went there to m'e about these pr»»p«'rtieH? A. — I had Ix-en there. Q. — Wlien? A. — I was up then* in 18K8, I think; the win- t«'r of 18«8. Q. — But your ordinarv sealinp business did not take y<»u to Sitka thi'n? A.— \o' Q. — So that it was a rather exceptional thinp for you to po to Sitka in 1888? A.— Yes. 40 (J. — Were you not there before 1888 and after the seizure? A. — I was there in 18. y. — Will you swear it? A. — I don't know us I would like to swear positively, but I really don't rememlMn* beinp up there. Q. — Is yciur memory pn-tty powl? A. — I don't know as it is anythinp extra. ♦i. — It beinp an exceptional thiiip for a sei/.un' to occur, and an excejitional thinp for you to po to Sitka, cannot you renu'mber even the years you were fhei-e? \. — I (inly i-e- member beinp there in 1887. I Wiis tliere in 188fi. I went u|) there for lumlter then, and in 1S87 under tlie seizure 1 was then>, and then I went up apain in 1888. (i. — What did you po for? \. — I went there when the vessel was seized. ii. — But you wert' not there witii the exception of when 60 .von went iMM-ause you were seized? .\. — I think that is all. (i.— In 18.S7? A.— Yes. ^i. — .\re you «|iiite sure? .V. — I must be. t^. — .\fler you were aclinp pinerally for th. seized schoon- ers and these claimanlH. did you po to Sitka? A. — I do not think it. Q. — Was your trip tliei-e in 18MS not after you were nctlnp for these claimants? .\. — That is after 1 was actinp in Ot- tawa, voH mean? 50 50 iff 1 1 1 I •::-m -1' %i !j ii* ' I V|ii: 10 930 (J. D. WnrrvMi— Cr«t»B.) Q.— Yes, yon went to Hitka? A.— Ye«. Q. — Now, Ciiptnin WnriH-n. how ninny logK did yon get at Hjtka Yon were n little doubtful about when yon t(K>k the log of the *'Thornton,"bHt liow many Iorh did yon get fwnu the oftlc^TH of the eonrt tliere? A. — I do not remember get- ting any but the one. The "Thornton" was ordewd releawfl, and that Ih the reanon I underetood they were given to mo, il. — Was the "Carolena" i-eleawed? A. — Yes. Q.— And the "Onward"? A.— And the "Onward." Q. — And they had b<'en ordei-ed r«»leased when you were there? A.— Yen. Q. — The same order nn In tlie cane of the 'Thornton"? A. —1 do not remember that I got their logs; though still I would not like to say I did not. Q- — ^Vell. no. of eonrse. What other lotrs did yon get that time? You would not Hwear that you did not get the logs of the "Onw.inl" and the "Paroleiia." and the "Thoniton," 20 would you? A.— I wonld not like to Hwear It. but I do not HMneniber of getting them. O.— nid yon have a trunk with voii at that time? A.— .\t HItka? Q— Ves. at that time, in 18RS? A.— I Hn|)|MtHe I had a valiHe. Q.— Did yon have a trunk? A.— I di|H'rs with reference to all the ships that were seized «>r warned? A. — Wlien I went to Ottawa? Q.— Yes. after you were at Sitka in ISSS? A.— I tr memoraudnni. Ij. — Memorandum made up from what? nuide up from invoices. (i. — And from statements that y«iu had got from Hitka? A. — No, I din; I woiiUl likely have done ho. Q. — IMd you leave i-eceiptH for anything el^e ii|) there ex- cept the \o\s'! A. — The lo(; and the ehroiioineter and the sextant. Q. — And tlM> Hextant, of eourne? A.— .\t that lime? Q. — Yett. A. — I may poHHJlily. I know I had a gun. lO Q. — You knew your Hhip wan rehnmed at that time? A. — What Hhip? Q. — The "Thornton. A. — VeH. I think ho; I mant have known at that time. (J. — IMd you leave reeeiptn for anything elne in regard to the "Thornton" exeept her log and lier gun and the Hextant and the chronometer? A. — That in all I remember. Q. — Did you get anything «'Ib«'? A.— I cannot Hay. Q. — And yet you make a charge agaiuHt the I'nited RtntcH for a whole lot of propi'rty. and yrn: cannot nay whetlie:' yon 'O had it hack or not? A. — I cannot t«'ll from memory just what I did give a receipt for. Q. — Mat y«>u got whatever you gave a receipt for, didn't you? A. — I expect I did get whatever I gave a receipt for. Q. — You Haw the Thornton on the beach there in 1SK7? .\. — Ves. Q.— And the "Carolena" and the "Onward" with her? .\. — The "Carolena" wan at anchor in the Htream. Q.— .\nd the "Thornton" was on the iM-ach? .\.— The "Thornton" was on the beach. Q. — And where wan the "Onward?"' A. — The "Onward" wan on the beach. Q. — .\nd you <-onHider them a total Iohh, including your own "Thornron?" .\. — Oh, the vj'SHeln' could have been fitted up. Q. — You kept a diary at the time you were there at Sitkji in iHHT! A.— Yen. I think ho. Q. — Does that diary contain any reference to tin* condition of the Hhipn? A. — I can soon lottk and see. Q. — You have it there? A. — Yes, and I tind .: reference 40 here. Q — That statement in that reference was nmde at the time in Sitka? .\. — No, this was down in Ounnlanka. Q — I mean at Ounalanka. >VaH the statement that you nmde then* correct, then, in regard to the ship? .\. — Yes. (). — Can 1 see that, faptnin ^Yal•ren? .\. — Y«'H, certain- ly. Q.— I have nof the right to see it. A.— 1 have no objection. Q. — Ts there i? A, 60 That is all I can see. Q. — That is all the entries I care to htok at now. raji- tain \Yarivn, don't you know that (he "Thornlon" in Itehriiig Sea transferred a portion of its catcli to one of your oth«>r vessels? .\. — Not to my knowledge. (J.— None of it? A. -None of it. y._|)|,| you have a report frimi your captain? .\.— .\fter he was in the Sea? (J. — Yes. A.— I had uo repi»rt until after the seizure, Sc Ui m' H jipfi -hit lO 20 30 932 (J. I). Wjirivii — Crii88.) ii. — I>id lu' write t«» ^ou? A. — Vi'h. g.— Wheif is hiH li-ttiT? A.— I think Hii- Cliaili'8 Iiuh it. y.^Is tlu'iv no «>t)n'r letter tlitin that? A. — Whatever 1 had I \!ii\i' to Sir C'htain OuttorniHen? A. — 1 do not think ho. (i— Written from OnnalaHka? A.— I do not think It. jnst the boats returned with ;W seals, in (he handwriting of yonr captain? Is that rijjht? -V. — That is what is down there. *i-— ^Vfll. that Is in the captain's handwriting. Ihm't yon know the liandwritin^ in this l(»olphin, 107 seals," at the foot of the lo}» entry «»f July the first, 1SH6? A.— I suppose that Is the l(t7 seals that I rep(u-ted I had on board. Q. — That you rejiorted to lh«' captain «»f the "Thornton?" A. — Yes. that I rejiorted that I had on board; 1 told him I had that many seals, I iM'lieve, and I do not think he had one. He did not report any to me. Q. — B>it yon were not In Rehriuf; Sen at the time? A. — Not on the first of .Inly. We went in on the second. Q. — You undeistood that the "Dolphin" had 107 seals cuuf^ht outside? A. — Yes, I expect that is It. Q. — .\nd when you report the name of another vessel after the word "seals." it means the seals that the other vessels had? .\. — I siipposr* tha*^ is his way of entering it; that is the only way T could account for It. Sir C. II. Tapper: — Would you mind, Mr. Dickinson, allow- injr the entry ti» go in in full? Mr. Dickinson: — I have no objection. It is as follows: "Lowered boat and wi-nt on board the schooner "Dolphin." ("Dolphin" 107 seals.) (My .Mr. Dickinson:) Q. — Now you find by yonr lojj mark- ed No. l(i f. Wam-n— CioHH— inviMHor^.) H.o!««| Hu. oHm.,- ..x...|,tioii Ih, at tin. f,„,| of lh«> lou thf lo witiM.HH.) Q — riHT.. \n an t'litp.v of July 17th that the ,0 iMNitB iv(iirm.n to thi' qncHtlon. In addition tn tlM'w to which I H|.«.(in,all.v raih-d yonr attention in the 20 lo|r hook, air tlicro o(ln'r cntclu'H of Hcaln in tht' HohiinK S,'a Kivi'n from day to da.v in tluK loji book which has In-cn niaik- «-d. No. ir». for identification? A. — liuTc arc others. Q.— In whose writiuR is this log book which has b«H>n mark- ed 10 for identitlcation? Are the paRes that I now sIkiw you. commencing with the heading. -Inveutory of Schooner "Thornton"— in whose handwriting are these pajjes? A.— I take it to be in the handwriting of the captain*' Q.— C'aplain Guttormseii? A. — Ves. -Q Q. — It appearK to !»»• taken, does it not, after the entries iu the lojj book of the proctH'dings in the court of Sitka in which he was a party with the "Thornton?" A. — It is put down later ntry in the log in this handwriting of the names of the crew and a stntenunit of the nrticles taken from the schooner, do you not, together with 40 the entry of the captain's protest signed by him? A. — Yes, sir. The inventory tiiid extracts from the log are as follows: IXVEXTOKY OF S("H(H>XEK "THOKXTOX." ;{ Axes .'{ AiH'hoi's 1 Augur __ 1 Urace and bit ' 1 Itroom (ccu'ii) 4 Ituckets (deck) 1 Hell (ship) 1 Mellows ihand) li Karometers 1 Itinna) . . . . K«'tf l«' (Iron) KiiivPH LaiiipH (Hwiii|;iiiK) ( JaBkH (water) CiiitM*! (wnod) <'liiHel (coal) roiiipnHHeH (boat) <'OIII|><;HM>H (Htci'riiiK) . . ('lo«k TablcH (fhain) CoalH, ton (^liartM TanvaH, ,vardH raiilkiiiK iron Coffee |»ot (tin) Lantern (deck) I^tidH (lip) Het lanternK (wide) La.v (?) line and glaHHcs Lead line and lead IJfe biiov and line .... n-et Man'illn (2^ in.) ... Mallet (Hwing) bblH. nailN (^allonH oil (flHli) OallonH oil (eoal) pr. oarn (10 ft.) Palm I'addleH Plan.' Piini]» (bilp>) Pitcher Feet packing (rubber) Pair rowloekH Sacks (?) unit Tow StOVCK Stpiare (carpentei) . . Hpike (inarlini Shirt K (calico) Shirt (woollen) Shovels (iron) Sci-ew Screwdrlv«'r Starting bar Fur Heal Mkin» Hair seal skin Pujm' seal skin 60 I I Main sailo , ForesailR Jib Flying j<»b , Slab bucket Tanks water) .... Wach (?) «ar 1 Hinoke Htaek 4 Il«mt tnckh'H Goinpl«>t<* ninniii); m'nr: — 1 Pair ovoi-IuiuIh 2 PuiiiidM t(ihM«-«-«» -' Htovt'H '.'.'.'."..['.'.'.'.['. 5 HtixfH bi«'jnl '..'.... 45(» PoiindH ficnir IfMt I'oiiiidH Ki(«. IW\ PoundH mv^tw 42 PiK-ka^eH »«*a 10 PoundH eofft'e \ i>J|)p«'r '. ..........'.'.'.' *.\ 1 Cai'vinjf f«»rk 2 Pa«-ka{r*>H hopH !'!!!!!!!! i Tin pepper 2 Tins lard 1« Kolls hutti'r 4 Spur p«lo« »» Pair spurs (iron) •i Hooks (iron) .!.!!!. 2 Hands (iron, for mast head) . . . . . . . . . . 4 Klieets pnierv eloth ... 1 Har ■ '.'.'.'.'.'.'..".'.'".'.'."." 2 Range (small) .............. 2 Spar cans 2 Hand lamps 1 Whittle .'.'.'.".".'.'."..'.".'.'.".* .'{ (Classes 2 Pounds ivd lead 2 Pounds white lead ............. 6 Howls eutting 3 8. 8. ranges Cau >ing tools 1 I'ropeller .'..'.'."!.'!!!.'!"' 1 < 'ondens«*r 4 Pumps .......] 2 Tube i-ods 1 Gauge Vaeeum 1 Gauge steam i Coll Manilla (3 in.) 1 Mincing knife . . ' ' 1 Tube blower 2 Serapers (steel) [., , 26 Empt.v bags 7 Hoat masts 1 Chronometer Arms and ammunition Size of main mast on board "Thornton":— Prom deck to ti-essel tiws 42 ft. Diameter of apartments .21 ins Diameter of tressel tives . 7 in.s Length between decks '. 4 ft." 10 ins. Length of mast h«'ad ft. EXTRACTS PROM LOG OP "THORNTON." Aug. 7, 1886.— Fresh breezes and cloudv weath- er. Still located in Port Tiloluk. At a.m. an otticer from the cutter came on board and took some provisions from the *"^''""»<*'' (as mentioned below) ■ 936 ; il; ii 90 30 •)0 5C 60 To Im' Htnf k 10 iiitMi. nanuHl aH followH: — Fvfil WIIImt. liuntiT Ni'il Morimtu, linntt'r orK<' W. rK<> .lolniHon, liuiil«'r •loliii l>»UKK*i"< lioatpulltM* •lolin IhilhiH. iMial'iMillcr 10 .lark DoiiKhiH, boat puller Ham Lawli'HH, h4Nit puller Will. <'l<'vt'laii«l, boatpnllcr Ti.v Fail)?. •••►«»k ArficleM taken from tlie neliooner: — KHI llm. Hour 2ri ll)H. rire iSt) llm. lieaiiM lit IbH. «lrie«I appU'it in llm. Hiipir 2 boxeH bieati 4> eupH 10 knivnH 2 lar)r<' tin ptuiR, 1 tin butter 2 tin kettleH, 1 r 1 Miuee|Nin, 1 carving .t Imkinif pauH. knife. Q. — The otiier letter, if .vou have it, from Oapt. flnttonn- w'U. wheiv in that? A. — I think it is in iiiy office. Q. — How niaiiy othern ai-e then'? A. — If 1 wiiiemlMT rijjht theiv was onl.v two altop>ther. Q. — 1 want vour memory? .\. — That i8 all 1 think there are. Q._l)i,l ]|,. only write you two lettei-H? A. — I think only tw«>. Q. — Will yon proiluee the other? .\. — I will. (i — The "Thornton" was t«»we«l into Itehrinp; S«'a by the "Uolphin"? A. — I towed lier in. t^. — She had her steam iittin^fs, «lid she not. your auxiliary tlitit cost fH.OIMi? .\. — She had lier sti-ain power there. (j. — Was she rebuilt at the time she had the steam auxil- iary put in? .\. — Hefoi-e thtit. Q. — Was there anything else |Mit in with her steam auxil- iiiry? A. — Nothing: ex<»'pi putting; in new stern jnmts and dead wooiIh. t^. — In order t<» fit the steam auxiliary? A. — Yes. (i.— That made a very fast Imat. did it not? A.— I don't know, she wiis pretty fast, and she would sail better without the maehinery in her I su]>poHe. (2. — You have some entry of this cost of fll.OOO. have you not. Captain Warren? A. — Yes. y.— Show the ccml of i^H.WW for that sti-am auxiliary? A. — I don't know whether I can H«>|Ninite the account. Q. — How much was the |H»wer of that steam auxiliary? A. — Oh, I suppose it w^ould drive her about — Q.— (Jive U8 the power by lioi-se power? A. — Oh. I couldn't tell you that. y. — You couldn't tell the horse power you had put in at this cost of f;MMMI. could not tell the amount of horse power you were jjointj to jjive the "Thornton"? A.— I cannot figure those things. 20 30 SO <)\7 (J. n. Wiiiiin— riotMi.) Q. — And «li«l .voii not know when ,vou bniiKlit tlit* «'UKii>i' wluit hoi-w* |K»w»'r .von wore K*'(t'i>K? '^- — ^'•' •'"' •'X'"'t lioi-w' |H)w«'r, I (l Ih'i- alioiit foiii- knotH. .v liorne |m»w«'I'? A. — N<». y. — WiiH it tinytliintt nton- tlnin » donki'.v <>ni;ini', Tnpt. lo VVniTMi? A. — W«'!l, it wan a Mniall «>nKin«'. y. — WaK it one liorw |»ow»'r? A. — Moiv tlian tliat. n a );«N)d nian.v «>nKini'<'i'H that fouldu't. Q. — Yon r«'niMl«'r<'d Ihm', did .von not? A. — She wnn i-ojjIh- ti'iiHl aftiM' til*' Ht«'ani wan pnt in. Q.— Von did It? A.— I oxitcct ho. Q. — And tlu' horw power .von rcjilHtfrcd was jHHt 1.21? A. — It nia.v Inivc been. (2. — And tlu' h\7a' of tin- cnKini* ,von rt'jriKtiTt'd. tlio dianiotfr of tin* »'.vlind«'r (i^ inclicn; Ih that rijrlit? A.— Y«t<, Hir. Q.— And the h'njjili of Htrokc 12 incli»'»? A.— TliatV rinlit. Itnt a liorw |Mtwfr tMit;in<< is r.ffordinfr to tli)> preHHiirc of steam tlie.v carr.v, what they actnally exert. Mr. DiekhiHon: — Yon stated. Sir Charles, that the tonnage j-iven by as as agreed on innsl be a mistake. wh<>n we said it was 22..'?n witli the dediu-tions for stt'nni fittings. Sir ('. H. Tapiwr: — I was wronf;. I have the i»ap«»r here. Mr. I)iekins«»n: — The exaet tonnage as it'nistered as we agree, to remove the niisa])|)rehenslon. is as folhtws: I'artie- nlars of tonnage. No. of tons, 2!(.r)7; eabin cover, .t.22; total. 32.7!K Dednctions |M'r contra. 10.49; registered tonnage, 22..'M). The jter (>4»ntra, is explained by the steam nnxiliary. Q. — Now yon fignred this vessel as worth f0() as she was 4° when seized? A. — I lignn'd her as worth i>(t.(M)0. (J. — Yon pnt luM- into the tinn of Warren & Hoscowitz in tlu' s]>ring of ISSt!, did yon not? A. — 1 never put her into the fimi of Warren & Hosiowit/. .vet that I know of. H. — Was lioscowitz interested in that enterprise? A. — He was as a money loaner. Q. — Were .von to divide the profits that .vear? A. — I was to let him have all the seals at the cost of every expense of getting them. Q. — IHd .von have a written agreement with Roscowitz? A. — I had letters to show — Q. — IMd .von have a written agreement with him in 18Sfi? A. — Myself, no. Q. — IMd .von not pat in the schooner against his wishes, for outfitting in the spring of ISSfi, to divide the profits and losses, share and share alike? A. — No, we got tliem from the nsigneese with the calculati? A.— As to her value? Q.— Yes. A.— No. Q. — And did you not afterwards when .von made a settle- ment with lioscowitz in October. 1.*dd dollars, charge back the loss of the '•Thornton" and her valuation including the entire outfitting at !|i4,tMM»? A.— No. 1 ■ i m ' %^, .1 1 I 93(1 (•!. n. Wiirw'ii — f'rotw.) Q. — Aiitl Htrikc a ImiIiiii«-«- of 9I7,MUI iiiid I\vii .voii ilif Hluirt'H of fS.INNt mid (mWI iIoIIiii-h? A. — Nil. Till' Ht«*uiiii'f liiTwIf wuH not in it; lit> tool( liin outfit- tin^H Itni-lt frtini Iut. ii. — 1M tlit> ni«in<>,v for tin- outtiltinK? A.— il«> did. till' MKINt of it. H. — Did itoHrowitx |Niy tlif «'X|H*nH«>M of ,vonr tri|m to Al- io iiHlia and to Ottawa wlifn you wi'nl ii|i on tliin liiiHim*HM? A. — If lu' did lu* rliar);«-d tliriii to iii<>. (i.— IMd III' pay tln' nion y? A.— Ih* may have loaned mo tli«' moni'y. (^ — III' advani-i*d tlii' inoni'y to you. wliati vit it may Im> lallid? A.— Vi'H y.— Kvi'iy ii-nt, did lii' not? A.— I don't tliinl< In* did all. iy — Now you nay your Hrliooiii>i-M wi-ri' all litti'd out to li'avi' tlii> MINI at till' I'lid of Hi'pti'inlii'r? .\. — In that ni'lftliliorliood. ii. — Did yoii I'ViT liiiow a Ni-aliiii; v«'8hi'I that Htayi'd in Iti-iiriiiK ^<')> i<> llx' * I'd of Ki'iiti'inlii'i' in iIiohi' yi'Ui'H? A. — In thi'iii yi'ai-H I don't think I do. and I think liki'ly thi wan vi*hhi'Ih in lii'fori' — (j.— Von did not Ix'^in to I'liti'i- Iti'lirinK Hi'a until \Hm'> A. — Till' Vii-toi'ianH did not aH a riili*. (j. — Can you ti-ll iiii> of a hIh^'Ii' vi'hhi'I that ri'inainud in Hi'hriii); Si'ii in ISSti or ISS7 iih latr uh t^cpti'inbi'r'/ .\.— I don't know aH I know of oni'. o you want to rorrci-t your ti'stimony? A. — No. (j. — What WUM till* iiHual tinii' f(U' li'avin); Itehriii^ Hea of till' wlioli' of till' Hi'iilin^; flci't*/ \. — Wt> wi'ri» romnu'ni'inK at that tiini', I inti'iidi'd to havi' nloppi'd in until tlii' i>nd of Hep- ti'iiibi'r. (i. — Have you li'iirni'd Hinri' by < pcrii'nit' that thi'iv \» no Henlini; to b«» had after the 2.'>th .\r ,UHt? A. — Yi'h, sir. 40 y. — Any Healinff done in later yearn after the iHt Heptem- ber? A. — Yen. I think there Ih. I know of vi'hw'Ih i;ettini; baek pretty well to the end of October—the 2l»th. Q. — Did they Htop and Heal on the roant? A. — On the ronHt eoniinp back? Q.— Yi'H. A.— It in too late. H. — Now can you tell nie a ninKle ship that Iuih ever, from 1HS«» down to thin hint M'aliiif; HeaHon. both incluHive. Healed in Mehrinvr Hen after the iKt of Kepteiiiber? A. — No, I don't -Q know just what they have done. Q. — And the iiHiial time for leaving Itehrini; Sea In l«Sfi, 1S87 and 1M8S waB the 2(Mh AuRUHt, was it not? A.— In 188f» and 1887 there was too much HeizureH }!<>i"K *'" f<»i' vi»HHelH to stay there. ti- — Now we will come back to the Heiziiren. You did not seem very much afraid, your whole lleet wan in UKain in 1887? A. — I did not expect they would Heize again. Q.— AVhat time did you pet out in 188fi? .\.— I came out niyflelf on the I2lli Aui;unt. 60 Q.— AVhen did the rest of vour fleet come out? .\.— I think n little later. Q.— They stayed until the 2(»tli. did they not? A.— They may have. Home of them. |H'rliapH. Q.— All of them with the exception of the "Dolphin"? A. — I tlioii}rlit I had a memorandum here Homewhere. Q. — You cannot iinnwer now? A. — (Keferrinn to memor- andum). The 'tJrace left the Hea about the ITith and the 1 : «39 1 lo 30 (.1. I». WaiTfii — <'roHH./ "Anna n«-«-k" iiImhiI :Iu> liMli; that Ih alKinl »h near nn I nin ltKiir«> it 111). li. — Till' "Ha.vwanI"? A.— I iloii't know wliiit tiiiic »iIm' l«*ft; hIh> n»t luMiM' lit'i'i* till* i:ttli of H«'pt«'nilH'r. (j. — IMil you liavf aii.v on*' to kii'p an a< roiiiit tit voiir trail in^ HtationH of what wiih put on lioaiil lh«> HhipH? A. — Vi>m, thi*,v are mupimiwhI to, to wmiiI thi> an-oiint in to tlii' ImmiiI ofll«-(> at Victoria. U. — And whati'viT wiih pnt on tho hi'Iioouith you liail HUt-li an an-oiint? A. — Hu]»pom*i] to. Q. — And then tninafi'r it to your bookH hi-ro? A. — Ych, nir. Q. — Your liookH hIiow nn aroiint of your trading HtationH of roiirw? A. — Vt'H, nir. Q.— Thi' IndiauH furniHiiod tlicir own ini'atH did tlicy? A. — In liidiring Sea that ywir? Q-— Yi'H. A.— I don't tliink we furuiHlit'd tlu'Ui any meat. Q-— VVIiiit did you k\\v tin.' IndiauH from your ntort's? A.— 20 I K tlM> IndiauH, t>acli man, four him-iiitH a day Q.— Four i-akcH of pilot bri'ad? A.— Xo, four bis nitB. Q.— That in pilot liri'iid? A.— Yph, tlii" piiot brcatl. iiid I Kavo tlii'm — w»'ll I don't rr how iinu'li Hiiniif; 1 jtavc tlu'iu an allowane<> of HUKur, rice once a wwk. '<"anB once a w«'«'k— well tea and cotTi-i', I tliink I iihimI to p ' • them Home every day, a certain amount. Q.— IHd they buy any HtutT of yon? A.— If they wanted n... ■ .-.tru they bought, I gave them a certain anmuiit and they bought the balance. Q. — What did you give them thnt you did not make them pay for? A. — Tliat wiih what I wiih mentioning, four bin- cults a day a man, a certain amount of BiiRar, I don't remem- ber now what it was. Q. — Every man a day some suKiir? A. — Every man; I al- lowed them a certain amount of Hu^ar for a lot, for tea and colTee — ho much ten and ho much coffee, then I allowed them one feed of rici* a week and one feed (»f beans. fj.— And for (he rent? A.— .\h near :ih I can remember 40 what they did not have they Itou^lit. Q. — They had their ov.ii HupplicH of linh and seal meat? A — Fish and seal meat. Q. — I am Rolng to ask you, man by man. or if any lutve the same lay jnittin); them all in together ho as not to take nitace. the lay of every man on the "Thornton" f<»r 1S><6? A. — En«h of the hunters was ^il.BO for each skin. Q.— And how many hunteiH at fl.50 per nkin? A.— Four hunters, that is fLStt per each skin they brinplnR their own boat. Q.— And did they bring their own boats? A.— >Mint they caught tlieiiiHelvcHeach liiinter would get fl.St) a nkin. Q— I am talking of not what they wonld get but what the arrangement was for ISHti? A.— That is the arrangement for 188«. There waB five of the boat pullers I see are signed at 30 cents each. (Heferring to log.) Q — Vnything in the lav? A.— 50 cents a skm; there are three boat pullers not in, ihat I see; they are very likely on pav. Q._How many boat pullers had 50 cents a lay.' Q.— And what are the others? A.— I don't f,i'e ment here (referring to log.) Q._Have vou not had an accounting with them? A.— There ban been an ai'counting. but from memory 1 could not gay. 1 expect, very likely, being Indians, they were paid by the month. .,,,„, » 1 Q._The other three? A.— Yes. 1 think, likely, I only si-e five signed here. 50 60 A.— Five. I don't M'e Mieir agree- !! m f- i i I ' OiO tv; "■m \ 'k I. h i: ■ A. 30 (.T. n. Warn-n— Cnttw.) Tlu' ConiiniHHioiior on tho imit of tlio liiitcd Ktates— Did Dallas siyn? A. — \t'». Q.— Yoii are not positive' that the ivniainhiK tlnvf liati n<» la.v an- you, Capt. VVaiion? A.— No, I niu not nositivt'. I am nnd(>r the impiVHsion Q.— If there is any donbt about it, Capt. Warren, I wish vou ,0 would supply it when you bring that letter. If there is any lay for the otlurs not named will you please h-t us know? A . — Yes. Q.— The eaptain, you said, had no lav, and the mate? —1 think the captain had a lay. Q— ^Vell, h't us have that, it is important that we should have the lay aciurafely. A.— Hut I doni think the mate had any lay. Q.— Had you not a setUement with them? A.— Dh, yes. Q-— You can give ns the facts can you not? A.— The 20 hooks will show. I suppose. Q.— Can you not give us the facts, Capt. Warren, about this lay? A.— I think likely I can got it from the book. Q- — You kn<'w it was aroing to be imjtortant and niateriiil? A. — Tt is all made up into the cofst. Mr. Dickinson: — I wish y«»u to pive us tlu' lay of th«'8e men. the cai»tain and everybody else, in such shape Ihat you ari' willing to swear to it, you nre the owner of the ship. We ought to have this. Q. — You have had some litigation with Mr. Iloscowitz? A. — Yes. Q. — And your wife has had .some? A. — She has had some little, yes. Q. — And Mr. r'oo]>er has been a party with you to those liti- gations. Thomas Cooper, of San Francisco? A. — Yes, he has been a party in it nominally. Q. — Will you please tell us what Mr. Cooper's interest in these vessels was? A. — His interest was merely holding for me. Q. — He is an American citizen, is he not? A. — No. Q. — Liv«'8 in San Francisco? A. — Lives in San Francisco. Q. — How did he derive title? A. — Did you give a bill of sale? A. — Well, we put the vessels up at auction and I bid them in in his name. H. — And for what consideration did \w take them? A. — Two of them |lfi,0(tO each, half of one f2..5()(>. Q. — You d(» not mean to say at the auction that he or you paid anv such money? A. — He did noi pass anv monev. Q.— Did you? A.— No. Q. — ^^Put them up at auction and tliey mU\ for fl.OO, did they not? A. — No, they sold for the amounts, I bid them in at the amounts I stated. Q. — How did you get at those? A. — Well, the amounts that they bid them in at and what (hey went in is named at — Q. — He paid nothing? A. — No. Q. — You ])aid nothing? .\. — Not at that time, no. (i. — Wlio put them up? A.— They were put up under Mr. lioscowit// mortgages. Q. — S«»it of friendly arrangt>nu>nt between you and Mr. Ttoscowitz? A. — It was to get control of the vessels in my name without having to go to the assignee, so I c()uld control them and take them out of the liands of the assignee. Q. — It was a friendly arrangement between you and Btis- cowitz? A. — Yes. Q. — How long has Cooper lived in San Francisco? A. — Well, hf has lived then* a number of vears. 40 SO 60 m 94 < { f 1 (.1. 1). Wam'ii — l'n»88.) Q.— He liiiH llv«'(l tlu'iv iilMMit '2't yvuvH. Iuih he not? A. — I think likt>l,v. (J. — And (ViojMT \H tlic niiin in wh«»He behalf yon preHented tliem' eliiiniH? A. — Yet*, he waH the ivgiHtennl owner, I pnt tlieni in his name. Sir i\ H. Tapper: — Von wiy Ihene t-lainis — tills was not put up that ypiir. lO U. — The litipitiouH covered the "Thornton," as well an the otiier. did tlnv not? A. — Well. I diui't know whether they would cover ti.e "Thornton." Mr. ItoHcowitz took all of IiIh money that he advanced — Q. — We will not p> into the ItoHcowitz law Huit, exc<'pt 80 far aH it bears on the "Thornton." Xow. you teHtifled in those caset*. did you not? A. — Yen. Q. — And you teHtifled about the d(»in};H of the ''Thornton," her <-urt »»f ItritiHli Columbia, did you not? A. — I ex- pect HO. H. — I>id you tcHtify in that matter as follown; I hold in my hand a copy of tlu» leHtimony of Warren v. Itom-owitz. "t^. — It in the fact that all the Hchoonern were Hei/.«>d by the I'nited States tioveiniment in the year IMS"? A. — Thei-e wan one wized in ISSCt; there w<'re four nmiv in 1HS7." Wiln«'HH: — YeH. I expect so. y. — IHd y«ui. in that ctmnection. state to thin iiuestion: J° "(J. — And the 'one' you referred to was the 'Tliornt«»n,' was it not? .\.— The 'Thornlcm." ii. — IMd you. in that connection, state t(» this <|ueMtion: "Q. — You say you pave instructions for the defence. I shall read you Cooper's defenci' to Mr. Hoscowitz' claim. You are aware of the fat) thai Mr. Koscowitz has eominenced litipa- tion in order t;> ^et his claim, or a portion «>f it, in his own name? A. — I have heard scunethinji about it." 40 Witness; — What is this from? Mr. I>ickins(Ui: — This is from th»' case of Warren v. Hos- cowitz. Witness:— Is it from tlie shorthand taker or from the judjje's notes? Mr. 1M<-kinson: — The stenographic minut<'S of the testi- mony in o|M>n ut it. The contention on your part, and what has been admitted, is that tli*> claim iH'iongs, or any ])roflts to be made out of this claim belong luilf to you and half to Mr. Boscowitz? A. — The proflts. after all exjienses and every other person has b«'eu Itaid." A. — Yes. 60 "(i.— Half to y-.u :iiid half to Mr. Koscowitz? A.— That is my contention." A.— Yes, I ex|,ect that's right. (^._And Mr. Hoscowitz did claim half the jiroflts in ids own nanu'. did lie not? .\.— From the g<»veniment? ti.— Half the protits 88 of IHHii: "(i. — ,lu8l loi>ii at lliiN atroiiut and we if lliat i8 an aecurate aceonnt of the »ealiui; business? A. — Mr. Itales Iiad the aecoiint, and he Ha.vs it is a eorreet eop.y as per ))oolis, I don't ixnow, I snp|K>S4> i) is. Q. — Yon niijilit tell nie iliis before I sit down. This acctMint 'Iv' siiows the balanee 10 of I»«ottt to be |2lM4(».L'0. How is that reduced to #17.tMMI? You eau jUst jjive us that by llie boolis. A. — There was a loss on the "Thornton" of |4,(HH.48, tlnit is the "Thornton" sailed ft)r Hehilnn Sea and never return.0r.? A.— To fl7,- »S(».nr). of course." Q. — Now, having refreshed your memory by your testi- mony, is it tru«> that you and Boscowit/, came to an account- ing in 0«tober. 188(5. for the season of 188(5? A.— Yes. Q. — Is it true that the profits for the season for all the schooners, including the ''Thornton." were estimated at f22,- Hn.20? A.— Xo. q._Ik it tru- that without deducting anything for the "Thornton" the profits of the fleet were estimated, including the "Thornton" at |!22,1 40.20? A.— Xo. the profits taken into consideration at that time was not the vessels at all; it was the proceeds of the sealing outfit, the value of the ves- sels was n()t talven in at all. Q._\Vere the jiroflls without any deduction |22,1 40.20? A. The profits on tiie other vessels would have been that amount '^^ leaving the "Thornton" out altogether. (J.— Then, to n'duce the amount to f 17.!)80.0ri you had to de- dmt the "Thornton?" A.— \ot th«' "Tlunnton." that is her outfit. Q._Yon had to dt'diict ^4.001.48 on acctmnt of the "Thorn- ton? A.— (In account of the "Tiiornton" it was all outfit, there was no vessel in that at all. the value of no vessel. Q._ll„„,.owit/, i)aid the (Mitfit, did he not? A.— He paid the outfit and he deducted his nnmey out of it, I believe, I S^ advanced some of the money towards the outfit, but he paid the [»rincipnl. (i.— Hut vou stated on the h«'aring in the Supreme Court of Ibitish f'olumbia. (liat the reduction was made from |22,- 140.20 by the loss of the "Tiiornton" in not returning, that is what you stated? A.— Certainly it was thnnigh that. Q_^Xow. then, after deducting on account of tlie "Thorn- ton" v? A. — Xo, it wouldn't exceed that I sluuildn't suppose. Th«> captain's lay would be on the whole eatch. (J. — And the men's lay? A. — On the catches of their own boat. Q. — It would average .50 cents a skin? A. — It would make r»0 cents a skin for »-aeh man; that would be a dollar a skin and a dollar and a half would be two and a half, it would be about two dollar.^ and a half a skin, nnd then the captain's lav of 15} 1-2 cents more. (J.— In the season of IM^fi you were in the hands, I think, of an assigniM'? A. — Yes. Q.— And did Iloscowitz , by Mr. Taylor; and I ask you if you testified in accordan. Warren in chief by Mr. l{ely«>"a. and ask if you (estified as follows in that case on De- cember i:Uli. ISOO: — ".»;U. Q. — l want you to state, as nearly as you can. wint tlu' cost of those vessels was. A. — The cost of running (hem? 'X\'2. Q. — No, the vessels? A. — Well, I , it the "Thornton." I think, at |!4.0(l(>. that is the time she had her machinery put into her. and was made a steamer of." Did you so testify? A.— Yes. I expect so. I don't know whether that is exactly tin* way 1 put it or not. y.— Have you any doubt about it, that is the printed r<'- cord in this ajtpeal prepared by your counsel? A. — If it is j.ut in the value of the vessel. 1 doUbt it. I think I was ]Mitting it in as value for him as security. (^. — I jisk you whether you so testified on December 1.1th, 1M!K). in that causi". just as I have read it to you? A.— (Ex- amining). I don't recttllect of making that statement to say that the "Tliornlon" was valued at f-l.ftOO for she certainly cost me more money than that considerable. Q. — But you find in that connection, do you not, following the testimony I have read to you that you proceeded to give, not the mortgag«'s on the other ships, but their valuation I think, in m<»st of them, perhaps all of them. Q._A11 of them, liad yon not? A.— 1 gave the cost. I think, in the most of Ihem. i)er haps all of them. Q. — But you say that although this testimony speaks di- rectly of your putting the cost of the "Thornton" down at |!4,(»00, that testimony is erroneous? A. — Yes, she cost more S^ than that. Q. — The (|uestion is not what the fact is, but whether you so testified. If you say you did not it puts us to the trouble of proving that you did. A. — I don't remember of the state- ment of i)utting her in that way at the «'ost. Q. — But you did put in all the other vessels of the fleet in the same connection and immediately following? A. — They are there about the cost, the others. (i. — .\nd yBB.) oue-half? A.— Of the i-ecovei-y of the 40 60 lUfut to receive "Thornton?" O.— Yes, sir? A.— No. Q. — He c'onteiidK, does be not, that he in to receive it all? A. -Of the value? Q. — Yes. A. — 1 don't think it, unless he wants to take it on general airount. Q. — Now, at the time you testified as to putting the ma- chinery on, and after the machinery was put on, you put a mortgage, I think you have said, to tfoseph Koscowitz for f4,- (MM»? A.— fi.OOO, yes. Q. — That, you observe — it may be a coincidence — was just about the cost of the "Thornton" as you are claimed to have stated it in that testimony in the Supreme Court? A. — I might have had reference to the mortgage that he had as Hecurlty, certainly the cost is more than that. Q. — >Vhere di«l you buy that engine? A. — From a man by the name of (Sowen. Q. — Made it hero? A. — Made it here. Q. — Where is he? A. — 1 don't know. Q. — When did you last see him? A. — I haven't seen him for some years. Q.— Did he build it here? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — What waK his business? A. — Machinist. Q. — Did you look up the price of engines at all before you ordered this constructed? A. — Oh. I enquired around some. (J. — Had you put in steam fittings before in any boats? A. I don't think so. Q. — Still it was being done here? A. — Oh. yes, it was be- ing done. Q. — And engines were purchased ready-made frequently, were they not, to put into the ships? A. — Very often. Q. — Did you have a machine shop here that built engines? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And had engines for sale? A. — Built them to order. Q. — Did this man have a machine shop? A. — Yes. {}. — Where was it situated? A. — It was situated on Store street, a little to the other side of Victoria street, as you go out. Q.— And his full name? A.— Thomas Oowan, or Gowen. T wouldn't be positive. Q. — r>o you know when he left here? A. — No. I don't know just the year. Q. — Did you ever hear wliere he went? A. — He was in Westminster for some time, he was on tlie Sound, and after that T think he wen, to Westininster. Q._He may be there now? .\.— No. he left there. 1 don't know where he is now. Q._About what tieie did lie leave Victoria? A.— Oh. he must have left Victoria al)out eiglit or 10 years ago. I think. Q.—Pid jinyone succeed to his busint'ss? A. — No. Q._riosed tip? A.— Closed up the place. Q._Por how long a time did you fit out the "Thornton." do vou sav, in ISSfi? A.— For how long a time did I fit her out? ■ Q.— Yes, in May? .\.— Well, she was fitted out, it was some time in September, she didn't have all her stuff on board then. She had all aboard. I guess, that was charged to her. Q._Por about four months? A.— For about four months. Q.— That, of ( ourse, incbides the time it takes to come Jinck from Behring Sea? A.— No. she would be rather over that, three or four months generally speaking. Q._You fitted her out for a full season of about four months' fishing and hunting in the Northern Pacific and in Bphring Sea? A.— Yes, about that. ■r 'I' lii I ' 20 30 946 (J. D. Wai'wii — CroHH — Kt'diifft.) Q. — When you saw the "Tlioriiton" on the beach up there in .lul.v, 1887, did .von ronHider her n total los«? A. — Oh, the vesHel could be Rot off and fixed up ri|?ht enough. Q. — At a cost lews than her value? A. — Perhaps some; it would coHt a good deal of money. Q. — Did you state in your presentation of your claim as your solemn and sincere declaration to the British Oovern- ,o nient that from the inspection made by you on the 13th of July, 18.8". you believe from your inspection it would cost over 14,0(10 to take the "Thornton" fi-om Ounalaska to Victoria and put her in good order? A. — To take men then*, take Tier off, and put her in thorough good order niachinerv and every- thing else, it would cost 16.000. Ue-direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupper. t^.— A question I omitted to ask you, Mr. ^^•a^ren, and that is, what use you nuide of these vessels after your coast seal- ing? A. — Some of them 1 used to do freighting with. y. — In what seasons of the year? A. — The fail and wint€*r. Q. — Did you use the "Thornton" for that purpose? A. — Yes. (i. — And you sent a fleet out in 1887 to Behring Sea after having been there in 1880, did yon send all tlie fleet you had except the "Thornton" in 1887? A.— To Behring Sea? y. — Yes. A. — Well, the "Bustler" was wrecked. Q. — I say the fleet you had the management of? A. — Yes, I think so. Q. — If you had had the "Thornton" you would have sent her to Behring Sea? A. — Yes, I expect so. Q. — Not what you expect, but what was your plan in 188(5? A. — My plan -.'^■as to send all to Behring Sea, ai>d I believe I intended to send the "Rustler" too, if she hadn't been lost. Q. — You were asked in reference to the books that were kept. You were away a good part of the tiiiie in these years from Victoria? A. — In 188() I was away for almost a whole sealing season. Q. — Now, some of these vessels, including the "Thornton, were in the habit of obtaining supplies outside of Victoria, that is for instance, (he "Dolphin" gave in the "Thorntcm's" case, some supplies, you had trading posts, you say. What was the nuinner in which the items for those booka were re- ceived at Victoria where the books were? A. — The people at those places would make out a statement on a sheet of paper and send it up to the head office. Q. — Who handed in the slips here, the people or the cap- tain of the vessel? A. — The people at the station when they delivered goods to the vessels gave the captain an account, if the captain delivered anything to them he would send in his account. Q. — Those were sent to Victoria or should be? A. — Should be. Q. — As a matter of fact how did the captains keep these ac- counts on boVas she injured? A —Xot (hat I eon id see Q.— Was she not off? A.— Slu- was not off. -, ,„?;~'^"'' *"•' •*'"' P»'«"'' '"'•• lepiilar business in 1SS.1. 1884 20 1885 and up to 1880? A.— Yes. Q.— And did .^ou observe any l>ad effect from tlie irroiind inp— strandinjr? A.— \o, I didnt. Q-— ^'o" spoke of overhauling your vessels constantiv; was this vessel overhauled af(er 18M:j aiiunallv? A.— Yes' everv year. Q.— Was the vessel surveyed before slic was insured in 1885? A. — Yes, she was surveyed. Q. — Do you i'ecoHed by memoranda of your own as to the ships t<) which thes*^ things behmged? A. — Yes, some voui-hers 40 SO =1 r u i II ■* P 1 1 « 948 , I I lO 20 30 (J. D. Wurivu— llo-diivft.) Hlioiild bt' iniirkcd; if tlif whoU^ vuuelu'r did uut bi'long to tliHt ttdi(H>uer I Hli(»uld iiitiriv tin* articlcH that did not. Cj. — And did you um u mutter of fiu-t uiaice memoranda of tliat l? A. — 1 did all tlie time. (2. — Htate in .vour own lan(;uage again liow you prepared the Mtatenient at Ottawa; wliat Ivind of memoranda did vou talie to Ottawa? A.— Wlun I went to Ottawa I laid to divide tlie dilTereiit tilings the best I linew. I didn't have any bool' careful in regard to that part of your ex- amination to say. that so far as you could see. nothinc ap- peared to have lieen left out of the inventory of the 14th of .Viiiriist. 1 infer that what yon meant was that you could not lell what had bt^en counsumed by the crew or lost after yoti •m 20 949 (J. D. Warivn— Rpdircrf. , had gent those things on boiird, is that wliat you desired to intimate? A.— I couldn't state exactly what should have l)een aboard at that time. Q.— And from a general gliince at the inventory It seemed to cover what ought to have been there at that time. A.— I think the most of the things should have been tliore if they were not. 10 Q. — You are merely giving your opinion in answer to the question? A. — Yes. Q- — You said, captain, that a statement was being prepar- ed, as to the things that went on board, and you referred to the counsel for the Crown. I>o you refer specifically to a statement being made from the books, or something else? Was there any statement ever prepared by anyone at the time tliat things went on the boat? A. — No, not at the time they went on the boat. Q. — Then you have reference only to the examination that had Ihh'u made of the books bv counsel, and for counsel? A. —Yes. Q. — You know of no formal statement for this court, no re- cord? A. — No. Sir <'. H. Tupper: — I will ask my learned friend, he ex- amined very pointedly witli regard to the receipts at Ritka. Would he l)e good enough to let me see those receipts at this stage, or dws lie winli to reserve them. 30 Mr. Dickinson: — You must l)enr in mind, Sir Charles, that you have massed all the other Warren cases, five or six. that follow the "Thornton." I would prefer to i-eserve our own case until we get into it. Sir C. H. Tupper: — I mean with regard to the "Thornton'" as my learned friend states, in connection with his vessel. If he has received other articles for which we are charging other than the chronometer and log, of course, I take it. Mr. Dickinson: — I have no receipts expressly for the 40 "Thornton." Q. — Have you looked fov the other letter from Gottormsen which Mr. Dickinson asked you to produce? A. — This is it. iProducing letter.) The letter reads as follows: W. CLARK. Hitka, Alaska. Attorney and Counselor at Law and Notar> Public. 50 Capt. J. D. Warran, Victoria, H. C. Reptbr 4th 188(5. Dr Sir, In adition to my letter jesterda (wroght by Mr. Dingly) I must infonn jou that I have made agreement with Mr. Clark (Attomy) to folow The cas«» up untill we get the b«'st of it. so vou understand to shut( vou self acording to hwat time vou "wil pay him the fee of f5(M>.«0. I got inventory list of evry thing Jis was onboard, the clironometer I was trying to get witli nie to Victoria but hear in Sitka as I got lukt up, the tunied the cronometer and also my sextant over to the Marshal. Wen the time conies that I can come outh I can get thise things by svering tha"t it is mine, of cose I can swere the sextant is mine, and if jou did give me as a precent the cronometer in May, I can then swer it is mine. I could make jon a precent of igain wen Tget it to Victoria. Well yon understand bettre youself as hwath kine of paper you could send to me for to precent to the court to that effect. James Ogilvie is lost. Munroes tryal 60 1 ': w > !' 1:1 if( i; "f 950 (J. I). Wnw'ii — Il«' dlrtM't. will roiiK- III MoihIii.v, :iIho ('iiroli-iuiH. ('apt. of Klir Kiin DiiiKo Kot 2 niontliH luiil tin' iiiatt* 1 iiiuiitli, iNMiiiim' li«> wuh iiilfiHlin^ to p» to Iteiint' H«'»— Well I Ii)iv«> iiu iiior*' to nyv jiiHt now oiiclj I f(M'l viT.v iiiim'i-:i)il<' in faith. on<» du.v Ih hnijf- «•■■ than '2 wi-ckH in Itcrin;; H«>a. I iiiniain voni-n ttlNMlitMit, (K,l.» 11. (JT'TTOKMSEN. 10 Letter rfccived anl niaiketl "KxJiiMt 4(i, O.R. Claim No. I' I ■I 30 (i.— Have von tin- h-tli'i- to whii-li tliiH hiHt h-tter pefei-H, written l»v Mr. Dintrl.v? A.— What Ik the date of that one? (i.— Se|ite;nher. Mil. A.— I think I Inive got a letter, Hi^n- e«l h.v .Mr. Dinulv. Q.- TiiJH iH the letter n-ferred to. a8 the letter written bv Mr. Dinjfl.v? A.— That's what I took it to he. Q. — And Ih that .Mr. OnttorinHen'N HiKiiatnre? A. — (Ex- 30 ainininp.) VeM. Letter marked \o. 18 for Identifiratlon. Q.— Have you been able to find anj- other letterB bearing the eaptain'M HiKimture? A. — To the best of my knowledge that Ih all I ever Haw. (i. — Tlieii the two timt hav«' his Hi^nature tliat are in your poHKeHsion. tliese are from Mr. Dingly. and tliey are not sign- ed l>y ingly, was he a friend of Mr. Clark's".' A. — Clark & Dingly is the name of the firm, or Dingly & Clark or something. y. — Now, you were asked in regard to the steam nnxiliiry. What speed eould you drive your vessel at with that engine"? A. — Well, between four and five knots. Q. — You spoke «»f Mr. C«»wan. At that time was there a regular boiler works or engine business here, or was this a special work'/ A. — Wliat is railed the Albion Inm Works was liere then, to; she was always able t«) d«» about that. (J. — Now, parts of dilTeivnt examinations of yours in litiga- tion, wliieh you have had with Mr. Itoscowitz have bt*en shown to you, and you were asked particularly regarding a statement made where you used the language: "I put the Tliornton" I think at |4,osition to Mr. Biiscowitz for further advances? A. — For getting advances. Q. — And did you intend to ivprewnt to him the cost of the vessel, or what the cash value would be in case of sale under security, wliicli? A. — No, my intention was not to represent the cost of the vessels, but to show him that he would be safe in loaning tliat amount of numey on them. Q. — In those statements to which ref«'rence was generally made were not thi' other vessels, say the "Grace," put at a small figure as well? .\. — Yes, much smaller than their cost. 40 50 60 =a r 20 30 951 (.1. I). WHm'ii— Ki'din-rt. Q.— Klu- coHl yiMi tilMMit |n>,(H)«), did hIi«> not? A.— Abiiut flG,(NNI. Q. — 8lu' WHM a Ht«>aiii«'r of what tonnagf? A. — Hh«* carrli'd mo toiiH of «-oal. Q. — HIk> coHt .voii fl(i,(HHK l>o yiHi liappt'ii to n'mt'inlicr what yon put h<*i' 'owiiiK money from Mr. ItoHfowitz? A. — T«>n or twclvi- tluaiHand dollarM, I think. 10 Honu'thinK like tliat. Q. — Ho that in tliow Htatt'iiientH of uHHctg, you were not putting what yon wonld i-all aH tlieir real valne, liut their value for Hafe Heeurity? \, — VeH, wlien I put them down h'HH tluui the eoHt. Q. — .\h a matter of fact, if theHe i>aiM>i"H were pnMluced from tlie tourt, would they not mIiow variouH valneH even in ret;)ird to the "Thornton," one time at f.'i.tKK), another at fH,- (MKI and another at |4,ak of bidding them in a friendly way you referred to the other vessels of your fleet, which ymi named, and n«»t the "Thornton"? \. — No, the ''Thornton" was seized and it d<SHessinn at all, but was actually under sclzuiv? A. — Not in my possession. Q. — I want you t«» explain why these vessels in that sale were kniH-ked down at a nominal sum? A. — >Vell, they were put up for the ])ur]iose of transferring the cf. notwitliMtnndinK (ho M>ixuri>? A.— Hiiirc th«- iMMtii hour I w«>iit iiiiil tM (m a venHel. I ean give tlie amount of canoeH on the veawlH to Behring Heft. I make It ten l»oat8 In Beliring Sea and .'»8 lamM'H, and on the coast I should suppo8(> there would Iw in tlie neigliborhood of :M) more canoeM. Hir C. H. Tapper:— You have given an answer about tiie .Q four tliousand and odd dollars loss, what do you mean by that loss; had that anything to d«* with the cost of the vessels? Witness: — The vessel herself was not taken into cai<-ula- tion at all nor the values of any of the vessels, only the work- ings of the business. Q. — You were examined further as to your answers in re- gard to the construction of a charter and obje«'t of the charter being taken by someone else after the assignment i>f .Q your vessels, as a matter of fact, all this litigation ended in a decree, did it not? A. — Yes. Q. — And you did not succeed in having your interpretation of yonr relations with Mr. Boscowitz endorsed by the court? A. — No. Q. — Their construction of your relations was diflferent than your own? A. — Yes, quite diflferent. 50 The Pommissloner on the part of the United States: — What was tlie date of this assignment that has . een spoken of? Sir C. H. TH')per:— I think 1885. Witness:— l! the fail of 1885. 60 Q.— Theash' in 18S5? A. Q. — You wei sels? A— Y( Q.— Mr. Ori) A. — .Tolin Orif iment to wiiich reference has been made was 1885. not, liowever, the registered owner of the ves- hs was tlie assignee, what was his name? hs. .Mr. Dickinson:— Tohn H. Oilfflths, I think. Sir ('. H. TupiHT: — 1 sliall purposely abstain from going Into tlie qu<>Mtions. some of whidi were touched on by my learned friend at this stage. I think it better to carry out the origi- nal method in which we projtosed to put our case, and leave tlie questions of interest and ownership and that kind of tiling until its proper order in rebuttal. 953 (.1. I). WiinM'ii — lt«' rroHH.) K«>(TOM(>xaiiiiiia(ioii Itv Mr. Mifkinwin; (i.— Ill uiiHWiT lo llif toiiit .voii Itild till' piolltM, and I iiihIit Htooil yo\i lo my it waH prolitH uf tli«> IiiihIui'mh of llfliiiiiK H«>a? A.— Not altoKcllKT— Ihf McaNoii. (i.— Till' roiiHt ralcli and »>v«'r>tliliiK Am- iiiaki'H up tlicHi' proHtH whicli yoii liiivi' Htali'd? A.— Vi-h. y.— Did you hiiy IIiIk Iok for tlii' "Tliointoii. Tin- ori){iiial •o blank htMik? A.— I can hardly say; vi-ry liki'ly. I rouldn't nay |HiMitivi>ly. (i.— Did you furniMli tin* winit' to your other ImmiIh? A.— I couldn't n'lilly miy, I «>.\|HTt«'d it would he iiwd liy lh(tiii 118 a part of thi'ir Hiippllfti. Q- — !><» you not rt'iiicinlicr wlii'thfr you riiriiiHh«>d thlH par- ticular lojf. puhliHhcd l»y Iniray tt Hon/London? A.— I don't r«*in«>inlH'r tli»' circiiiiiHtanct'. Q.— Befori* w»' lay aHldi- tin- Iok. I winli to identify certain 2Q parfH in it ho that there hIiiiII he no niiHappreheiiHioii. 1 tliid in that loK three Iiminc HheetK, do you know where they came from? A. — Don't it hIioh wheri' they came out of the Ion? Q. — I want to hIiow that there were, in tlie Iok hook, threi' looMe HheetH? A. — I Hee they are there. Qi— Did you jjet the hook in tliis condition at Rilka? A.— Witli them three hnwe leaven? Q. — Did you K«'t the hook in the condition the writiiiK Ih now in, at Sitka? A. — Oh, yew, there luiHu't been any chanjje in it to my knowledge. 30 Q. — And I ha> made no iniHtake In your tcHtimony that tlio liandwritiuK on the ])a);eH mnrkiil, "J. <'. ('. December 'JIUli, ]Xft«, to .1. V. C. December 2!»tli, lH!t«" are in your captain'H handwriting? You sonaid before? A. — (Rxamtnin);) I took it to be bin writing. i.i. — And the reference bn«k on the last jHige, "See in re- tnarks for AugUHt 7th," is that liis handwriting? A. — I ain't BO sure of that. Q. — Turning back to AiigiiHt 7(h, in that in hiH handwriting the regalnr log of AugiiHt 7tli? A. — I think that if*. (V.x ^^ amining) Including the wordH in bnicketH on the name day, flrat page of Augunt 7tli. "an mentlon«>d b«'low." Q. — You do not know of any other writing in tliin book ex cept hiH? A. — No, I have no knowledge of anybo 954 :■»; 10 (J. D. Wnrrt'ti — Rt-ci-oss — Kt'-diroct.) Q. — I woiihi likt' to know, riiptain howiM' other naiiK> who surveyed the "Tlioriiton" in ISSH? A.— I don't know ii8 I know his second name. Q. — You had him here at» a witness? A. — He was here this niorninK- Q. — Is \w th«' niiin wlio surveyed the boat? A. — Tliat is the man. Q. — How lonp was this tleet on the west coast, eonsistin); of the "Tluirnton." th»' "Dolphin," tlu' 'Anna Heck," the "tJrace," tlie "Uusth'r" and "Sayward"? A. — In which year? Q.— In IHSVi. A.— About the middh' of May they were pre- pared to jio north, but tlie "Kustler" stayed later, sh»' went later on the coast. Q. — But how lonj; were they on the coast before entering? Hehrinjj Sea? A. — They w didn't >jo into the Sea she remained sealin}> alon}j the coast, slu' reniiiintHl loufjer on aciount of not };oin}r into Mehrin;; Sea. Q. — The catch of the "Thoniton" made on the coast is esti- 30 united in this account of profits iM'twwn vou and Itoscowitz? .v.— Yes. Q. — You said to the learned Commissioners that you had but 2(> boiits all told, I think? A.— About Ui white boats and 38 canoes, I think I said for Rehrinfr Sea. and iterhajis about :{() more canoes on tlu' coast. Q.— Thirty extra to the ,18? A.— Yes. (i.— Did that include the "Thornton's" boats? A.— The "Thornton didn't seal with boats. 20 40 The Commissioner on the part of the asked for it aside from the "Thornton." Tnited States:— I 50 60 i}. — llow many canoes had the "Tliornlon" on the coast? A. — I cannot say positive, I suppose she would have from 10 to 15 wherever she couhl sjel them. Q. — That is in addition to what you }jave the court, is it not? A. — Yes, I kind of roujihed it on the const, I cannot tell any more thiin I would know they would lake them if they could fjet 1.1iem. (i. — That would make "8 cnnoes and 10 boats? A. — Well, the "Thornton" did not have boats on the coiis(, and I sup- pose likely there would be lather more canoes lliiin I fi};ur«Ml on b»>cause she would {ret canoes on the coust? I suppose there would be in the neighborhood of 7t( oi' 80 canoes or along there. Q. — -Vnd 10 boats? A. — No, there would not be only four or five while on the coast. Re-direct examination by Sir C IT. Tupp<'r. Q. — What was the (lag the "Thornttm" carried mention- «'d in the inventory? A. — The English flag. Q. — I omitted to ask you about tlu' value of the fur sea J sl.Mis in 1887 — we have evidence as t(» their value in 1880. Can yoii tell us what the skins of the Kehring Sea cat.7ri at a rough calculation, and, in fact, I have imt any re- turns of them vet. '■2k K^ ^i^ 20 955 (IMsciiHHion.) The (.'oiiiniiHKioiU'i' on Mic piii( of the riiited States:— A ro- inaik iM'twwn Sir (Miailcs Tiippt-r and Mr. DukiiiMoii led mo fo tliink that there is some iiiisunderMtandin^ somewhere. In tlie i»-o(eediiitjs all alonjj, I unde-stood that after cohnsel for Her Majesty jtiit in the n'fjistry of any veKs«'l to i)rove that she was a British vessel, that would make out a i»rinm facie eas«' for the whole vessel, and ♦^hen, if there was American lo citizenship claimed they would be entitled to rebut. That has been my uuderstandinr evidence on this (luestion; we may have to make rebuttal evidence. That Ins been my und<'rstand- ing airthrough. 50 Mr. Dickinson: — And ours. The Commissioner on the p;irt if the I'nited States:— I con- ■'£ - ?. I 1; r^' IS;:: \v "'iji ■lll'll« }'-'l lO 20 30 ,1 '. 056 (DiHcuHHion.) Tlw ('oiiimissioner on the jtarf of tlu* United States: — I nnderstand that, but do you think that we have to Und a» to the rights of each person interested in each vessel. Su|)pose that we are satisfied that a vessel belongs to British owners and that the claims aw purel.v private, aiv any of tl»e counsel of the opinion that we hav«' also to detennine the rights be- tw«><*n the i)i'ivate owners? Mr. Dickinson: — No, your Honour, I do not think that you will have to go into the «]u<^tion between Boacowitz and War- ren, for instance, to settle the dispute between them. Sir (\ H. Tupi)er: — I tender in evidence the Register of the "Tliornton." Received and niarkcd "Exhibit 48. (}. B., (^laini No. 2.'' Sir O. H. Tapper: — I beg to present a certifl«'ate of the sur- vey of the "Tliornton" in connection with the reduction of the tonnage after she was made a steamer; this shows li«»w the registered tonnage of 22.o() is reached. Resing the liability (m the (iovernment of the I'nited States. Hut in regard to tlie investigatiers, which might receive and discard papers which they consider- ed as worthless, as the Tribunal at Paris miglit liave done when it came to the (juestion of testimony. j'ut here we have a statement made by tlie witn«'8s as to what lie did, which might be reci ivcd liy any one as entirely true, viz., that at the time he prepawd the claiiu with regard to a matter which occurred ten years ago the facts were fully in his mind at tluit time when he did prepare this formal statement of the claiiu whicli he wisheer was mad<' tlu' foundation of the examination, and he had to submit, and did submit, to a very seiirching cross-examination upon that ex parte affidavit made n«'arly ten years ago. It is of cours«* for the (Commis- sioners to decide how h«' came out of that or what benefit insofar as this claim is concerned, can be derived from any- thing he has sworn to in this case. This document was before the Tribunal at Paris, and to exclude if for what it is worth will be, I think, to unduly embarass the pii'sentation of this claim. If we were pro- ceeding befon' an ordinary Tribunal, it is clear that we would have all the resiMuisibility that attaches to the claimant on account of the delay, but, as has be<»n jKiinted out on mort» than one oc<'asion in fhe courw of this investigation, through no fault of the diamant's time has r(»bbed him of many dm-u- ments, and much evidence that ten years ago could have iMvn easily jtroduced, and which would have shortened the proc«>«'dings. Therefore, I argue that scnne latitude- in the l>res«'ntatioii i)f this case sluuild be given. I think it is a paper that thi- Commissitmers should caivfiilly consider as iuaring on fhe case. It is in the jiiinfed Ile<-ord. and must be befoiv them, and, bi'ing pi-oduced here in cpnut'ction with 1:1- A ; i: 5! 95« MX- ■iiiii l> :li 20 (DiMciissiuii.) the (fstiiiioii.v of tlu- witiU'HS, it iiDtkcH Imh whole Mtateiiient, at U*aHt. more intelligible. I ran underHtand iiiv leariKil fi-ieiid making; thiH objection the )ri-oinid of MM'ionH argument at the end of the enquiry, but I think at this time, the ]hiim>i- nii^ht be admitted foi' what it is worth, and the ar^^nment as to the general effe««t of Captain Wan en's evidence considered when the time 10 comes for reachinfj; a decision. "he Commissionj'r on the part of the Ignited States: — What i»art of it do yon wish to refer to, and for what pur- jMise? Sir <'. H. TiipjK*r: — For this purpose, ri>;ht or wrong as I submit, in the interest of the case, we made this j)ai>er tlie basis of the examination. If we had adoi)ted the more lejjal circumstance of ])roducin}; the books, the proceedings would liave taken a greater lengtli of time. He was examined on the statement of claim for tlu' sake of convenience, he has exjdained how it was made. We could have gone through all the vai-ious books, but we thought it better to save time to ]>ursue this course, and Mr. Warren was submitted to a reach- ing and searching crctssexamination at the hands of the rejut'sentatives of the Tnitcd States. Mr. Dickinson:—! will state my views very compactly and take uj) as little time as possible. Tlu' analogy is similar to this: That the claimant may, up(Hi the trial of his cause, S'^ read his own declaration at law or that a complainant, in equity, may on the hearing of a cause ivad his own bill of c(miplaint in evidence. A more ai>t analogy is, that a ])laintilf who has commenee<1 his suit by mesn(> process of attachment, may read on the trial of the case his affidavit in evidence for attachment, or a complainant in a suit of e(iuity. who has asked preliminary injunction and filed affidavits, may, in order to get his pro- ( ess of injunction i-ead his affidavit on which he obtained tlie 40 injiinction in the first instance. There is no difference be- twe<'n the two. Tlu' ex]>lanati(m that time has (>la])sed can cut no figure. In no cas«> would the affidavit, or statement, of the ))laintifT, umde out of it ]»assed upon ( ertain great facts only. It could find by latitude and longi- tude where certain seizures were mad«' on certain undisjuited 50 facts. It found that the I'nited States sequel. The (ii>venunents came together in ac- cordance with the recommendatiims of the Tai-is Tribunal, and they saw that tliey could not pass up(m thes«' facts in issue. Then the (Jovernments considered what should be done. TlH'y decided that tlu'y would organize a coui-t with power to 959 lO (DiscuMsioii.) summtm witncsm's; tlioy dccidt'd that tliey would send that i-oiirt, eomiM)«t*d of I he (\»iiiiiiiHHioiu>i-H of both count i*i«*8, to the Bourc** of t«'8tinion,v. and on these quentionH that have troubled the I'arin Tribunal, and aw to which there was no re«ou<-ilinK the dilt'erences they waid: We will have evidence taken — authentit evidence — as to them. They said, for in- stanc«'. on .1. 1). Warren's statement as here juesented, if he makes a claim, J. 1>. Warren may be put upon the stand — as he has l)»*en juit here — examined and cross-examined, and that is what we are here for. The only other i»oint raised by my learned friend is as to lapse of time. Well, the absence of time never j>ennitted a witness upon the stand to put in his testimony in chief any document that he had mad* himself, «'xcept for the jnirpose of refresliinj; his memory, and when we come to the argu- ment. I shall arfjjue with great confidence that ('a]>tain Warren upon the stand has said that every one of the vouch- 20 ers. and all the testimony in regard to the supplies contained in this statement, are in those books and were drawn from his books when he jn-epared that statement and that the books are here in his ])ossession now. How long would it have taken to bring this source of fair, and competent, and suitable testimony before this Tribunal? Warren could go into the oltice of an accountant, or into the ofllice of my leaiTK'd friends, and could have, very easily, made out a statement from the books before him. nj)- on which he might have refreshed his memon' and been cross- examined. I submit that this statement of his v laim filed before the Paris Tribunal, because of the ditflculties arising out of it, ought not to be received by this (•fore us. and this slioi;ld not be offered as suitable, authentic «'vidence on this issue. 30 40 sO 60 Sir (". H. Tupper: — I wish to call the attention of the Com- mi8sif the main f|uestions. do agree that either may submit to the arbitrators any question of fact involved in said claims and ask for a finding thereon, the ((uestion of the liability of either government upon the facts found to be the subject of further negotiation. The (juestion of fact in regard to this claim was the same d friend, that tlu- books to which he has referred, and which are available to Mr. War- ren, will l)e gone through from cover to cover in four ars to us, such a <'ase, and while recogniz- ing the weight of your argument, Sir Charles, we believe, that in this case, we should confine you to the statements on oath of Captain Warren as produced before us. 40 50 60 Sir C. F. Tupper: — Am I to understand that this document cannot be referred to when counsel are arguing on the evi- dence? The Commissioner on th»- part of Her Majesty: — It could not be referred to as proof of the fact. Sir C. H. Tapper: — Hut in order to understand the evidence. It was constantly referred to by myst'lf, and by my learned friend ojiposite. The (•ommissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — To the ex- tent that the witness was cross-examined upon it, it becomes part of tlie prcMtf in this cas«', and to the extent that anything in it limits or '|ualiflcs a jtart referred to in cross-examina- tion — to that extent it would, under the ordinary rules, be <'apable of being referred to. Sir C. H. Tui)per: — Then 1 understand that while we can- not rely upon what is stated in the afllidavit as substantive proof, the examination of Mi'. Warren may be considered as read in the attidavit, or the aitidavit into the evidence, in ord- er to follow that evidi'ucc. Otlierwise I do not exactly see how the examination can he understood. He was cross-ex- amined at great length upon that statement. The Commissioner on the |)art of Her Majesty: — I think it will he found possible to understand his evidence without reading in the ailidavit. 1 961 (hiHt-UHHioll.) Sir ('. H. Tujtper: — Not all of U, ttut the rt'fcn'iiceH. Tht ComniisHioner on tlu' purt of H«'r Majesty: — W»> can- not now d«M"idp on tlu' t'Xtcnt t formal presentation of this claim in connecti«m with the (]uestion of interest. The ("ommissitmer on the part of Her Majesty: — Is there any (|uestion as to when the claim was made? '° Mr. Dickinson: — Not the slightest. Your Lordship. -There apparently Ih not now, but there 40 Sir ('. H. Tapper :- might be. The Conjmissioner on the j)art or Her Majesty: — If it is necessary to refer to that claim for the purpose of founding an argument respecting tlie claim for interest, I do not sup- pose there would be any objection at all to your referring to it. Sir C H. Tupper: — May it be filed now as an exhibit? Mr. Dickinson: — I desire to suggest in this connection the proposition, namely, that there is a possibility — and I hoiHJ a very remote possibility — of this matter going to the um- pire; if this should be certified as part of the testimony taken, it would be somewhat confusing. The Conunissioner on the jKirt of Her Majesty: — W;- think that inasmuch as the Treaty referred to the claims, it is 50 open to the parties to have i>rought before us the definite claim that was made. Mr. Dickinson: — To be sure. The Commissiont'r o»i tlie pai-t of Her Majesty: — And that not as a matt«>r of evideni-e, bnt as a matter of [troceeding. Mr. Dickinson: — I quite underatand your Lordship's ruling, and, understanding it. I made my suggj'sfion in reply to the IM'oposition of Sir (^iias. Tupper to put this in as an exhibit; to that I made the remarks I did ojtposing that moti(m. Sir ('. H. Tupper: — That would b»' my ground for asking to file it as an exhiltit. The Commissioner on tlie part of Her Majesty: — It might be filed as a separate exhibit, but not as an exhibit of mat- ters put in evidence. It might go in as an exhibit under a different head, say, of claims filed. 61 60 l! If ' h I'l' l!a W I 96a h ' '% |i>:ll 10 (DiHcuMmon.) Hir ('. H. TupptT: — As my h'ariied fru'iid says, we niuHt con- tfniplate tlu? poHHibility of au umpire. Tin* Commismoner on tlie part of thi' Unitt'd Ktati's:— You have to contemplate that all alonj?. Sir ('. H. Tupper:— That is apparent to any mind. The (.'ommisMioner on the part of the I'nited States:— It is a lepil poMsibilKy. Sir V. H. Tupper:— Exactly, and so far as possible there oujfht to be before the mind of the umiiire what there was before the commiHsioners. It is not an unusual thing for the uni])ire to ait with the original commissioners in these mat- ters. That has been done heretofore in similar cases. It seems to nu'. therefore, that as long as your Honours, as the f'ommissiouers present, have not discarded this very evidence as siil>stantiv(> evidciice, and as entitled to go on the notes; 20 then, looking towards tlie possibility of these matters coming de novo before one who is not sitting witli you, this docu- ment otiglit to be preserved, and ought to be in proper liands for reference in «ase it sliould ultimately bec«mie necessary for reference. Reference to it may be necessary for the i)ur- pose of making the evidence given intelligible. Mr. Dickinson: — The )>ro|)osition has not been nu»de in any other case to get a similar document on the record as bearing on the issue. The statement of claim as to the other shi]m 30 were all prepared by Mr. Warren, but yet there was no motion made to have them go on the record. It is not necessary to file this to show what the claim was. My learned friends have filed a declaration in their statement of claim before this Tribunal, and it is unne<'essary t<» supplement the claim they have filed because, jiresumedly they filed everything which they desire to state in .onnection with this claim. I submit that it is not authentic and suitable testimony. The ( ■onimissirinted as pari of our proceedings. In this case such courae might be followed. Sir ('. H. Tujij^er: — In examining Captain Warren, in order to sjive time, I asked him to look at this document nuirkcd 17 for identification and tlien examinwl him in regard to certain figures in that. The notes will show the cross-examination 50 by Mr. Dickinson who asked him: "Now, with reference to this document sliown you. and by counsel on the other side," and so on. I submit that the evidence will not be intelli- gible unless this document is ]>ut in. The Commissiimer on the part of Her Majesty:— If it were used in that way by you, and if Mr. Dickinson cross-examined upon it in the same manner, it might be necessary to refer to the notes in extenso before we could intelligently deal with it. I would suggest that we wait until we get the notes of 60 the proceedings to-morrow and see if they are not intelligible. Mr. Dickinson: — In my learned friend's heroic struggle to put Captain J. D. Warren's statement on this recmd to be re- ferred to by some one as authentic testimony, he has stated that I iM'feri-t'd to it on cross-examination. I did not have it in my hands, nor did I s{K>ak of it at all, exce])t in two in- stances, and then I referred to the .\niericau Ke-print and iisked him: "!)id you stay it would cost |i(>.llttl) to get the lO 963 (DiHC'UHHion. \V. 8lfi(rhtliuliuc.) 'Thorntcm' off tlie btMch aH ruft'iTed to here," und he said, "I did." The next (|ueHtioii whb a M|N-(itlc <|ue8tion and ht- Haid, "I made such a stafciiu'iit," and tliat ek>Hi>d ni.v examination in that ivspt'ct. Sir ('. H. TupiKT:— Tlie not<'8 will siiow. Tliat in tlic recol- It'ction of ni.v l»'ani«'d friend, lint ni.v recollertion Ih different from hiH, nor would I like to tw crosH-exaniined as to it. If my friend has not cross-examined on the document my posi- tion is much weaker than I thought it waw. Mr. Dickinson: — I hands at all. 4^ 5P never took the document out of your 8ir r. H. Tupi»er:— I would suHKewt that this matter may wait until the morning' when we see the notes. The CommisHiimer on the j>art of the i'nited States: — 1 20 wish to ask counsel a (piestion: While we are not bound by the strict rules of common law, yet we are limited to "suita- ble authentic testimony. As su.<;j;ested by my learned col- leajjue, there mijiht Ix' circumstances under which we would admit a i)a]ier like that ; cannot counsel af;re4> as to this docu- ment? Sir V. H. TupjK'r: — It is not w' I! II *(1 li ■ I i! Oommissioners under the Oonvention of February 8, 1896, between 60 Great Britain and the United btates of America. Ohambers of the Legislative Assembly, At Victoria, December 30, 1896. ' 1^ I it. At lfl:.'<0 a.am. the Commissioners took their seats. The case of tlie "Thornotn" was resunied. William Slei^ththolme was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain and duly sworn: li i 9«4 !ii ■'IN' 'i|::|: 10 30 (WiMiiiiii HI<>iKlitlioliiu>— Dimt.) Dlr«'«'t «'XHiiiiuatiuii It.v Hir ('. II. TiipiMT: Q.— What i8 .vour aj?** Mr. SI«>iglitholiiii>? A.— «5 Hlr. U- — Voii wt'iv bom in Eii(;laii(l, I bflievf? A. — Ve8, Hlr. t}.— WIm'H di*l .voii Iwive Kii^land? A.— I left England laHt ill 1H51'. ation did .v«mi follow? A.— I'wd to fol- low RoiiiR to K»».i m 8liip cnriM'iitt*!- in tlu* rarly days. Q.— Th«'n .von wvvo apprtMitiwd to tin- nniK'ntry trado tirst? A. — Yt'H, Hir. (i.— And followed llic lint' of Hliip carpontrv? A.— Yes Hir. ■ ' *i- — How long did ,von pro to nen a a a ship carpenter ? A. I tliink about seven, perhaps eipht .venra. Q.— And .von settled down in Vietorin after having follow- ed tliat line at sea? A.— I made one voyage, after I came Iiere. to Cliinn. (i.— About what time did you come to Victoria? A.— I 20 come to Victoria in 18«4. (i.— And what have .vou been doing since then? A.— Worliing as a ship carpenter. Q- — You have worlved upon schooners and vessels gencral- l.v? A. — .Ml 'kinds of vesels. (J.— Had yon anything to do with the "Thornton?" A.— Yes, sir. Q. — What liad you to do with her? A. — I worked npon her for over 20 years, off and on. Q. — Do you remember the time slie was rebuilt? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You worked upon her tlien? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Do you remember the time she was coppered? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Had you anything to do with that? A. — Yes, sir, me and Oook coppered lier. Q. — Wliat work did you do on her as well? A. — After she was launched I worked around the deck and fitted her cabins — fitted her for sea. Q. — You saw lier then, when she was ready for sea? A. — Oh, yes, sir. Q. — Was that before she had the machinery in her? A. — ■ That was before she had machinery in her, ves, sir. Q. — What did ,von value her in Victoria before she had her machinery put in? .\. — About ?5,000. Tile Commissioner on the jtart of the I'nited States: — Hir Charles, liave yon any objection to asking whether he means value or cost? This class of witnesses, I find, generally mean 50 cost when they Hi>y value. (J. — Wlien you speak of value do yon refer to what it would cost to build a ship or a sliip of her style? A. — I speak of wliat sl'.e cost. (J. — Well, that being so, having regard to the cost of work at that time, could you have turned out a ship of h«'r style and capacity for less money? A. — No, sir, she would cost more. Q. — What do you mean by that? A. — It would have cost more to build lier comjilete from the beginning here than it would cost to rebuild her as he was done. Q. — What efTi'ct had her age ujion her at tlu time that slie was rebuilt? A. — She was very sound for her age, her old frame was very strong ami hard, the natural <'rooks were all oak. Q. — After she had her machinery put in her did you work on her? -V. — Yes, sir, 40 60 lO 20 hvv fair viilu(> would Ih* in tliat A. — IVi'liiiim Honu'tliiiiK over 17, 96s (WilliHin HlfiKlilltolinc— Direct— <'ri>8H.) Q. — Do you n'lueiiilM'i- tUv "Tlioruton" uh hIm" HttM»d iu 1880? A. — Yt'B, HJr.. Q. — Wliat would you say year, inafhiiit'ry and all? (MM). il- — \V«'i'e you on Iht in that yi>ar? A. — Y»'H, hIp. Q. — On board of her? A. — WluMiever tlu'ro was anything to do I waH K«'nt'rally t-allt'd on to d»( it. Q. — Could you tell me, generally, the dem-ription of the boiler? A. — I don't know much about machinery; I don't profess to know about that. Q. — What size was it, do you remember? A. — I eonldn't tell you I fouldn't say anytliiug about the machinery. (i. — Y«tu cannot describe it? A. — No, air, not more than I rtH-ollect asking the man that manufactured it, I asked him what the value of it was. Q. — Where atiouts was the nuichinery, did it take up much of the ship? A. — No, it didn't take uj) a great deal. Q. — nave you ever lu'cn on tlie vessel when she was under steam? A. — Oh, yes. (J.— And did her machinery work well? A.— Oh, yes, her machinerv was first class mai'hincrv. t!t :; ; 30 40 50 60 A. — No, sir. A. — No, sir, A. — Yes, sir. have done so I never Yes, sir. worked in any other way. have A. — No, ««ir. not on tluit vessel. vess«'l yourself? A. — No, sir. tlu' construction of a vj'sm'l? A. rross-examlnation by Mr. Dickinson: (j. — I suppos«> you are a machines! as well? (i. — Did you «'ver examine any machinery? 1 don't know much about it. (). — You do not know any thing about it? y. — Whenever you have worked on lier, you as a lalsuvr, liave y«»u not? A. — Ship carjM'nter. Q. — Never as a contnictor or boss? A. — No, sir had n(» contract on her. Q. — Hy day's work? A.— ii. — And you nev«'r have you, except by day's woik? (i. — Did you ever build a (i. — Did yoji ever work on Yes, sir. , Q. — As a day laborer, only? A. — Only. Q. — And did you ev«'r have anything to do with the jdir iliase of materials to put into a vessel? A. — Only the masts. Q. — You have bought masts yours»>lf? A. — I have con tracted for mailing masts. Q. — Hut you never iturchased (he timbers and the neces- sary material (o build a ship? A. — No. sir. (i. — And what is ycMii* business now? A. — Follow ship carjK'ntering. Q. — Y«»u follow ship car])entering by liiiy's work as you al- ways have all your lift'? A. — Yes. sir. Q. — Of course you luive never bought or sold a ship? A. — No, sir. Q. — And have followed your work day by day constantly for many, many years? A. — All my life. Q. — Working about every day? A. — Fifty years. Q. — About every day except Sundays? A. — Yes. sir. Witness not further examined. Sir C. H. Tupper: — I would like to refer, if the Commission- era please, to the report of A. W. Lavender, who was As- sistant Treasury Agent of the United States Government to the Chief Treasury Agent, Mar<'h 1!), 1890, as to the value of the "Thornton," found at page 738, Volume 5, American Re- Print, as follows: III 111 ''il It. I 20 30 (noal iHlainlH. "My Ut'HV Hir, — I .-iin in receipt of yiMirit of tliia date, nHkiiiK iii«> to viHit till* roiiilfiniK-d niIiooihth now l.vini; n<>ar tli<> IknuI of tliiH liarltoiir, and to nnikt> you a rciMiit i\h Io Hit* valiiv of larli on«' wlu'n n«'W, almi to tlif prownt condition and valuv of t'acli one aH tlicy now rtMiinin; and, in reply U* Hainc. I will 10 Kay, tliat upon it'cfipi of youi-H of cvt-n date, I went at once on iHNinl tlio Htcani Mtliooiicr "Tliornton," of N'ictoria, ItritiHli ('oluni))ia. and found lit'i- to be a Hniall Hteani Hchin<', her engines about eiglit lioixe powet', lier lH>ttoni yellow nietalle atflxed, on the day and year first above written. Charles Foster, Sec- retary of the Treasury." The reference (o tin' sliii>8 mentioned by that certificate that I would like to make is at the top of page Iflfl. setting out the nnmlMT of vessels seized by the revenue steamer "Corwin," Tajitain V. A. Abby, <-oninianding: Date of seizure, nation.'ility, rig, name, latitude and longi- tude, section of Kevised Statutes under which seized, num- ber of skins. The second in that list is the British schooner "Thornton," giving the latitude and longitude as in the admis- sion and section of Revised StatmCs under which seized, 1,- !).5fi, and number of .ikins 40.3. .Mr. Dickinson: — May I ask liow the report of Lavender got 50 into the British case? Sir r. H. Tujiper:— Sir Julian Pauncefote transmits to the Mar(|uis of Salisbury an executive document some jiages back, .'list Congress. Second Sessi«in. Executive Document No. 4!l, and the whole of that is printed from page 701 on to T.'IO. Mr. Dickinson: — We desire to state tliat we will want to put in anything in tlie same document that ({ualities. Sir C. TT. Tapper; — The beginning of these sessional papers 60 '" <'>*^ piiR*' 7t)l of Volume .''», ."ilst Congress. I would refer to Capt. Abliy's deposition for greater cer- tainty upon a jMiint which may not be necessary, but I have not had an opportunity to review the evidence. He men- tions, page 180 Volume S in regard to the seizure in his formal dejiosition here: "The 'Thornton' had on board four rifles and six shotguns." I am disaj>pointed in the non-attendance of a witness, who was actually here, and who aiTange<1 to b<» here, but is not 40 ir IT IK- 1.- flOH 967 (.1. I). NVaiicii— IHrccL) ii<»w |)i-«'H«-iit — Ml'. Oi'itlltliH; iiihI tliri-c Ih auotlHT witut-HM, the liiH|H'clof of Itoih'iM — tlu' OavoriiiiKMit inN|HM-t(M' — wlio Ih out of town for tlii> morning. I>iil will Im- Imt*- in III*' iiftiTiioon. AIho Ml'. lii'WJN, will) In an elderly Kentleiiiaii, ^ave a Hiirve.v, wliieli Ik the IiihI Miirvcy lie niat'r: ii. — Captain Warren you produce tluH lint with the prices oppotiite am being a Htatemeut of the vulueH uf the articlea found in th«' inventoricH in the log i^murked Xo. l(i) not prop- erly belonging to the ship? A. — Vch. The list and prices are as follows: VAUE (.>F AUTICLES IN INVENTORY NOT PROl'EKLY 40 1JEL0X(J1N(J TO Willi's. 2 Axes 1| 2 00 1' naromeleiH :{0 00 4 Hoats, valued in evidence already M Water Casks, Ditto. 4 Moat Compasses at |:{.r>0 14 00 5 Tons of coal, valued in evidt'iice. 10 Yards of < 'anvas, at ;'.0c 8 00 1 Flag tlJritisii) 12 00 50 1 Fog Horn 25 00 4 Fishing Lines, at 50c 2 00 1 (irind Stimi- 2 50 2 Hammers 2 00 :{ Stone Water Jugs '.i 00 ;{ Sheath Knives at 50c 1 50 2 Pigs Lead 10 00 120 Fathoms Manila Rope. 2^ in .10 00 ;{ Callous Oil, Fish 75 60 7 (Salhms Coal Oil 2 50 10 Pairs Oars, at f2.50 25 W) 12 I'addles, at .''.Oc f thai time. Q. — During your time they built the steamer Maude and the Cariboo Fly did Ihey not? A. — They built the steamer 60 .Maude and overhauled and i-efitted and almost rebuilt the Cariboo Fly. t^. — Did those boats belong to the c(»mpany? \. — They belonged to the company. Q. — Vou repaired thj' (Jovernment steamer "Douglas.'' or the engines? .\. — We did, and put new boilei-s in, ii. — Do yoti remember what the repaii's to the engines and boiler cost? .\. — I remember approximately ab(»ut flO.OOO. ii. — Besides building vessels, the work of the company was 969 lo 20 30 40 so 60 (John \V. (Jiiffltlis— Diivct.) to i-ejmii- eiit;in«'M and iK.iK'i-s? A.— Tlie «;oiii|)aii.v did not bnild v«'8W'l8. It wasn't a (•onii)any at that time, it was thf pi-oiH'ity of Mr. Jowph Wjnatt. He built thow vessels for his own U8«\ (i.— And then the woik of the company was to— A.— Ite- imii- vessels, the inaihineiy, and also build niachineiy. ^^^V""^'"'*' ^'"" *^^''''* ''^'•'" "" "'""'■•^ tl'i' stt'»"» schcMHier "Thornton?" A.— Yes, but it was a lonfj time ajjo. Q.— You have seen Ium- engines? A.— I have seen them. Q.— In those days in ^'i<•to^ia wei-e the wajjes of nieehanics in your line of biisiness hifih? A.— They were not consider- ed high then. Q.— (live me an idea what the company got for the work of their men? A.->Ve got |15 a day for blacksmiths with their lieli)ei-8, (me iielper to each. y.— That is what the company f^ot? A.— That is wliat the company {jot. Q— What did yon jjet for your machinists? A.— 11() a Q.— What days? A.— 10 hour days. Q.— What jKMiod of time is it that vou refer to? A —I think I can safely refer to 77 and '78. *'^;~^^'''»^ ;ed in value fnun (i to V2\ cents for ir i>ositive. but I think it was don.> in '7« or '77! • *^w^)wl'f '*'''''.' ''''''* "'"* •*''•'• -^•— «»><* was a vessel "of about (iOO tons, I think. Q— Vou have been on the "Thornt give your fair opinicm. what<>ver it is? A.— Well from .1 to 14000 to build th.' MiiM hiiieiy and put it in running order repair tlie v<-s«cl, put 'ler bunk.'rs in, and pn'par«' for sea. Q.— Did you see the "Thornton" in ISStJ? A —Well I wouldn't be positive. Q.— Did you see her in IMS")? A —I .ouldn't be positive I have seen. 1 think, all the schcHuiers at ditf.M-ent times from the time they were built to the pr.sent time; but I nev<'r took any ]mi-ticular notice of them. (J.— Did you know the schor well en.niL'li to irin. nn o])inion A.— A. her ma- steam? as schooners w«'nt in this port was generally understood in at that time? A.— Well, it those times tliat scliooners cost The Pcmimissioner on the pail of the Tnited States: rieas<> answer tlie (pn-stion. t'-en we will not get confused! Question n'pcate .\. — No. I i I I I! I i: I' A.— Well, I 20 30 970 (John W. Oiifliths— (YoHs.) Cioss-cxaiiiiiialion by Air. Dickinson: Q. — \Vh«'n were you on tlie "Thornton?" couldn't tell you the exact time, or the year. Q.— Was it before or after slie had steam auxiliarv? A — It was after slje had steam in. Q.— What was your business on her at that time'' \ -- ,Q (asually aboard of her, as I have been aboard of all of them Q.-Just a matter of hMsure'/ A.-A matter of leisure. H.—yo business'/ A.— No, sir. *^;~^\ '""•^' ''"^■^* •"'^'" "^♦''' twenty years ago,' or how long ago. A.— It may have been any time since she was built— eiffht years ajro, seven years ago, six years ago; I couldn't tell you. I linow I have been aboard of her oni;e or twice. Q. — How lonp; did y<»u stay on the.s*' wcasions? A.— Ohj fnmi half an hour t '11 the east, in Ontario. Q.— .\ny place on the const? .\.— No, sir. 40 971 lo 20 30 (John \V. (Jiittitlis— Orosa.) d..?:7^T '^'v ""'• '"'"''■ "' ""•>■ I''"^« "" f'"' <'""«f i» those ci.i^sr A. — No, sir. Q.-\Vlii.t wm your bnsint-ss in the Albi„n I,„n Woikn? '*• — I was bookkeeper. *i~^^'t''«' yo" a machinist at all? A.— No sir Q.— Xot a mechanic? A.— Not a medianic". (i.— Never had anything to do with the construction of l«M>Kin;,' after tlie men to see wliat work tliev were on. Q.— \oHr business in connection with the matter hail notli- inf; to do with tlie practical department? A.— Not at nil sir. ' ' .. ^T T"" "'*''■*' '•'*^ assisnee of Captain Warren, I think— the claimant? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— And the title of this ship is in you? Sir C. H. Tupper:— That is hardly a question for the wit- ness. Q— You never passed it away from voii? A.— The title ot the ship was in me. o you know what led t<. ycmr selection as assiffuee'' Sort of a friendly ari-.infj«'meiit. was it, an act of friendship to accept It? A.-I think it was Kiven to me because thev thought I c !J a lonfj time ago. ' i^.— Who did y(tu mean by the directors? .\ — Perliai>s I had oetter not say directors; [ don't remember (hat thev were directors Q- — ^^'lo had y-u in mind when you said directors? .\. I had no one in particular. Q. — Did Afr. Warren want you to take it? A.— Mr. War- ren wjis there. Q.— You said a moment aj-o it was formal. T was trying-' to v'»'t at whai yon meant by that? A.— I mean bv that it was a positi.m like a fljrurehead; it was of very little use to anybody; the business was outside of me alto<;ether. Q. — .\nd you were a sort of perfnnctorv lluuivhead- is that it? v.— Yes. Q. — Did Joseph Hoscowitz nsk you to serve? A.— 1 don't remember that he did. Q. — Did yon tharter the vessels after yini were made ns- sljrnee to Boscowitsi? Sir r. IT. Tapper: -I think if my learn-d friend is poiup into that part of the case It is hardly repulnr to put the ques- 50 60 J: ' |l!::!|||i;i ■ill,,. 972 (John W. CSi-iHIthH— <"roHS-R«»-(lirect.) lion to this witness in tlmt way. best evidence. The charter would be the Mr. Dickinson: — As a matter of fact. I am not k">i>K to prove a charter as a part of my cross-examination. Tlie Commissioner on the part of the United States: — He is asldng ti simple fact. If tlie witness says no, that is the 10 end of it; but if he says yes, perhaps lie cannot go any fur- ther witliout calling for the papers. Sir V. H. Tupper: — I would like my objection recorded to the (luestion as put. Witness: — It is a long way back, sir, and it is a matter that I want to be sure about. I don't want to be doubled up, as it were. The Commissioner on tlie part of the United States; — My 20 learned associate thinks, and I agree with him, that the ques- tion sliould be M.nited to tlie simple fact whether he char- tered the vesst 1 j Mr. Dickinson: — ^ your Honour rule that on examina- tion of the witness a, to his interest I cannot ask whether he made a diarter, and cannot ask as to whom he made it? The Commissioner on the part of the Tnited States: — It is rather our o]»inii' ««s tlie hiwver. fe2;:;7fZ!f.''""/"! ^^ ^loinment that Mr. Dickinson re- fen ed to-the charter? A. -I don't linow. I haven't the papers m m.v jwssession; all tlie papers were in the office of tile company. n~!v-,r" 'T'^ ^^'■- ^^*'"'* handwriting? A.-Yes, sir. rrh. ."/"'! }°*'^ "* ♦*'»^ P«P«'i' «nd «ee if that is Mr. Hett 8 liandwr.iing? A.-(Examining)-Ye8, and I remem- ber seeing this or a similar document. 2o ^ Q— That is his liandwriting? A.— Yes, that is that char- ter party. Taper received and marked No. 19 for identification. *i?'V^\^''''J'^ ?^'- ^''^^ •*•*'' <^« y«» J^now; about what time.' A.— Some two or three vears after, I think Q.— Have you hunted at all for this charter pa'rtv'' A — No, sir. *^ Q.— You do not know whether you ever had it in voiir pos- ,o !Z'"° ~' "'*'■''' ^'""^ ""''' «^ <•"• P«P«^''8 in inV posses- Examination closed. Ml Gufflths that I was disappointed in connection with two witnesses, and I would like to have it understood, and to have the permission of the Commi.ssioners as well, that I mav later on call Mr. Norman, (he mate of the vessel. We have been doing all Ml our power to obtain his attendan<'e. We believe 40 now we have found his addnss. and at any rate have sent a subpoena for him to attend, but exactly when he will be here it IS impossible (o say. I would like to transfer the evidence in the case of the 'Onward," except so far as it is obviously inapplicable, to this case of the "Thornton." as was done in the case of the "Carolena." I suppose my learned friend wishes the cross- examination transferred in a similar way? Mr. Dickinson: — Oh, yes. 5° Sir C. H. Tupper:— I desire to transfer also the general «vidence as to catch, except so far as it is obviously inappli- The Commissioner on the part of the United States— If .Vou transfer into this case all the testimony transferred into the "Onward" cam- from the "t'arolena," does not that cover everything there is in the "Carolena" case? Sir (.'. H. Tapper:- It may, but for greater certainty I °" would like the record to show that I formally tendered" all that evidence. The rommissioiier on the part of the T'nited States:— Do you not want to transfer that of tlit> six witnesses, and also that abont values and other things? Sir V. H. Tupper:— Yes, and I think these three transfers will cover everything, because they were as to the catch and J 1 ill ; 1 ft t 1 « H ^ f ' i ;; "i ^ i i ^^ If: 1*1 I a : . to 20 30 974 (Hubeit J. Cook— Direct.) sejil life, and llieir evidence was taken under tlie head of eatelj. To be tliorouyhly sure, I will add that I deBire to transfer all the evidente from the experts touching the catch, and the shootin;; of seals, into this case. From the record, which has already been referred to. the otti<-ial papers trans- mitted by the (lovernnient of the United States to the Gov- ernment of (treat Britain, I desire to read into the notes short extracts from that correspondence, as follows: "Ounalaska, Friday. August l.'Jth, 1H86. "Engaged taking inventory of ]»roperty on schooner "Thornton." Unbent sails, unrove running gear of schooner and stowed them below. Removed 40:{ fur seal skins, three pup skins, and one hair seal skin from her and stowed them in Kench & ('ompany's warehouse, and sealed them up. Se- cured the boats of captured schooners on 8hor»\ near astro- nomical station, above high water mark." "September 10, 1886. "At the joint request of Governor A. I*. Swineford and •Tudge T.a Fayette Dawson. U. S. District Court of Alaska, 20 Hr. Indians from Xanaimo, H. C, !) white men. and one Chi- namen for l'(U't Townsend, W. T., were received on board, tlu'v being parts of the crews of the schooners "Onward," "San Diego" and "Thornton," left In destitute circumstance**, there being no employment for them in the region. The United States Marshal furnished the necessary provisions." The above are extrat-ts from the correspondence between the I'nited States Government and their seizing oflBcers. I fii 40 5 J 60 Claims No. 0, "Say ward;" No. 7, "Anna Beck;" No. 9, "Dol- phin," and No. 10, "Grace," taken up. Mr. Peters: — It is proposed by counsel on both sides that the other cases known as the AVarren cases in the year 1S87, the vessels all being owneil by the same owner, and the same fpiestions probably a>-ising as to the whole of them, shall bt> tried together. This will materialy sh«»rten the matter. The cases are the ".\niui Beck," tlie "Grace," the "Dolphin." and "Say ward." Thost- four cases it is proposed to try together, and T will now proceed to take sonu' evidence with regard to the value of these ditlereiit shijts. Hubert J. Cook was recalled as a witness on the part of Great Britain. Mr. Peters: — • transfer into these cases all th«> eviden<"c ef this witness taken in the "Carolena" case and subse<|uently, except where it is obviously ina]>plicable; also tlu cross ex- aniinati(Mi and re-exai'.iinatiSe|>teniber. lO Q.— When did slie tome otT? A.— Oetober 2nd Q— 1S77? A.— October 2!)tb to November 1st.' Q.— 1878? A.— July 18tli to August 12tli (i-lS7!)? A.— July 2(ith to Julv 30th. " Q.-18S0? A.-July 17th to December Oth. ^^~^^aH anyiliing i.artioular done to her in that vear to your remembran would at about that time. ti. — That '8 the last time yon had her ou your slip, 1881? A.— 1881 is the last I see of her. Q. — Was she ou otiier slips afterwards? A. — Yes, she was hauled up after that. (J. — ()n what slips? A. — On liainji's ways. ? A. — She was in good condition, because she went through a thorough overhauling. Q. — How long before 1885 or 1880 had she gone through this thorough overhauling that you speak of? A. — I do not understand. Q. — Do y i>er ton. Q— Registered ton? A.— Registered ton. ,« *.,HT^'"'*' r" *'"' *^"^ before? A.-No. I havi not said 20 that before that I am aware of. Q. — Do you know the tonnage of the "Anna Beck""' \ — It is something over 4(» ton, hut I do not exactly know what. Q-— l>o you know where she was built? A.— No Q.— Nor how old she was? A.— No, I did not "know her age. Q— You do not pretend to place the value of the "Anna Beck as she was in 1881, do vou, Mr. <^«M>k? V — I could not go within f KM) or |2(H) or |:{(I0. vou may say. 30 luL^iT^y.')?* '" •^'""'' •''*'•'' "^ ^'"' '■"'"'' "f ^''^ "-^nna Beck" in 1881/ A\ha.t are you looking at there? A.— I am just look mg to see when I got her out tirst. I think she would b«> ^'ir^ \ ^M^^'*'''" ^'^'*' ""*^ ''•'^' ^''<'"^i>'Hl dollars; she was a good solid bunt vessel. nf^'i7j9'"\'''*l"''''^'*.,'\'':"*'*'. "" ^'"" '"*^^ »"''• '•«'Ki«tered ton of fl.^O.' A.— Yes, that ts without her fit-out. I, V,"~J!/''"^''''"*'-^' ^" R" ^" ^<'"- A— Oh. no. that is the hull of the ship. Q.— That is the o you know of any ivpairs being made on her? A. Yes, I knew of her being repaired the last time, that was in I WHo. Q.— On what ocd copin'r HpikcH or not; it Ih tlu> UHual <'aHt> to uw copiMT Npik(>8 wlien tlio copfn'r Ih put on aftorwanlM. TIk'.v put the platcH on tirHt and then trint th«>ni nftorwardH. ii. — When did yon b*"*- her Inst? A. — I saw her last year. (i.— You saw her in 1S87? A.— Yes. Ci. — In the harbour here? A. — Yes. jiwt at her anchorage, I was n<»t on board of her. Q. — In 188fi were you on board of her? A. — That I can- not sny. Q. — Can you say, approximately, when you were on board the last time befoiv the seizure? A. — No, I cann«>t absoluteljr say. (2. — After slie was built, what was she worth in 1SH2 and lH8;t? A. — I MupiM>se she was worth alM)Ut fS.tKHt, when slui was newly constructed, and. as schooners went in 188(5, I con> sider she was worth close on to fT.OOO, that is the "Hayward." She was built in 1882 and there was very little depreciatioD as she had been well taken care of. Cross-examination by Mr. Lansing. Q. — In fixing the value of these vessels in 1886, you bast it upon what ve8»<'ls would cost to cimstruct at that time; A.— No, these three last vessels I did not consider had depre- ciated much at all because they were comparatively new, they were built in 1881 or 1882, and, therefore, they were, onlv about five or six years old. (j._AVell. you have nttt fixed the price of the "Sayward" iy 1882 higher' tliiiii she actually cost? A.— I do not know what she actually cost, but I was judging from the knowlcd?r of what she would cost. Hh«' was built by days' work and ». could not exactly say what she cost. ii. — I>ays' work is the most cxjM'nsive? A. — Usnally, un- less they work in a lot of friends, and. of course, it d fni;iiic. The CominiHHioiHT on the part of the United StatcH:— Were them; regular marine enj^ineH with condenHerH and every- thing? Mr. PeterH: — Hinh preHHure? The ConnniKHloner on the part of the I'nited HtateH:— Thou they had no eondenMerH? Mr. Peters : — Hijih preHwure. t'ondenHiiifr en^inen. they ar»' described in the HejjiMter. Mr. Heique:— They were low preHHure inside. t'roHH-exaniination continued by .Mr. LanHin^: 20 ,vou know where the "tSriice" and the "Dolphin" are? A.— I know th<> "Dolphin" is here, but 1 do not know where the "Orace" is now. Q. — ITaH she ^ot an engine in her? A. — \o. Q. — Do you kno'^,' why they took it out? A.— T cannot tell you. <^— Doyon know. Mr. Walker, tlint It never paid in isealin-,' to have one of fhcHe enjiines? Mr. IVters:— They are not allowed to have bv the r«'8tly or not. Q. — Do you know the "Dolphin" was about fiO registered tons? A. — I suppose that would be her tonnage including deductions. The rule is tliat a vessel of so many registered tons will carry about twice that in dead weight. I have found that by experience. Q. — What do you say the "Dolphin" would carry? A. — 1.34 tons. Q. — Was the "(Irace" larger? A. — Yes Q- — But not as valuable a vessel? A. — No. Q. — In ev»>ry case you havt calculated that they would car- ry dead weight to twice the registered tonnage? A. — Pretty much, it will come out about most of the time. Q. — Tliat is the way yon reach the dead weight? A. — Yes, with some I did not have them tested. Q.— Tint the "Say ward" was the only one you had tested? A. — I had a test of her and she carried 110 tons, I had a test of the other two, and the "Grac*'" carried 1!)4 tons and the "Dolidiin" 1.34 tons. Re-direct examination by Mr. Beiijue: Q — How does the work done by days work compare with the work done by contract? A. — If depends altogether on who is d<»ing the work, if you hav»> an honest contractor it is just as good as a days work, if he has a reputation to keep up he wants to do his work well. Q. — You have bwn asked as to your knowledge of the re- moval of th<> steam engine from the "Dolphin?" A. — Yes, sir. » ^ 'j!, Q. — Do you know when the steam engine was removed from her? A. — No, I do not. Q. — It was after the vessel had become an American ves sel? A. — Oh, yes. I never saw her until last year, since 1SS7. I saw her in the harbour last year and she had no en- gine. The Commissioner on llie part of the United St.-ites: — Did you have coal carried in these vessels in lS8(i and 1SS7? The witness:— Yes, I had a load in 1887 from the "Dolphin." The t'ommissioner on the jiart of the Thiited States: — Was there the cu-ttomary demurrage in the coal business at that lime for detention of vessels? The witness: — No, I think not; we never had anything of CQ. 4hal kind here, we had to take chances on it. 30 40 60 John Irving was called iis a wilne'is on the part of Great Britain and was duly sworn. Sir ('. H. Tui»per: — The evidence of this witness is given in the case <»f the "Tliointon." Direct examination by Sir O. n. Tapper. Q. — Captain Irving, you hold a master's certificate for deep sea navigation? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — You are a memb<>r of the Local I^'glslature of British Columbia? .\. — Yes. sir. Q. — You are managing owner of the Canadian Pacific Navi- gation Co? A. — Yes, sir «^ lO 20 30 40 50 60 9S3 (John Ii'viiifj — Direct — Cross.) Q. — How man.v vcssols have you in jour fleet? A. — Nine. Q. — How long have you been engaged in buying and sel- ling vessels and having vessels repaired? A. — Since 1874. Q.— You knew the "Thornton?" A.— I did Q. — When yon knew her first what was she? A. — A slcpp. Q. — After that what was she? A — A schooner. Q. — And then? A. — And thea she was a steam schooner. Q. — In 188(5 what would it have cost to have built a schoon- er of the size and build of the "Thornton" in Victoria? A. — From eight to ten thousand dollars. Q. — Would that be with the machinery? A. — Yes, with the machinery. Q.— Complete? A.— Complete. Q. — What would one like her have cot^t to build without machinery? A — I would say about |fl,00(). Q. — You built a smaller boat, 1 believe, some time ago in Victoria? A.— In 18!)() I built a small boat. Q._What did she cost you? A.- Between fl.%000 and 111 4.0(10. Q._\Vhat was she named? A.— The '-Standard." Q.— Where did you build her? A.— In Victoria. Q. — What would it cost to put in machinery like the "Thornton" had — I mean outside of the cost of the machin- ,.,.v? A.— To change it would cost at least f2,()00 or f3.000. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— IIow much. Captain Irving? The witness:— Between f 2,000 and f 3,000. The Commissioner on th< part of the United States:— Be- sides the cost of the machinery? The witness: — Yes, you would have to haul her out and put her on th«* ways and make the alterations. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tapper continued: Q. — In 1883 you had no railway communication with East- ern Canada? A. — No. Q. — You changed a boijt called the "Maud" fnun a paddle wheel into a propeller? A. — Yes. sir. Q.— At what cost? A.— $12,000. Q.— What time was that? A.— About 1887 or 1888. Q. — About what tonnagi' was the "Maud"? .V. — About 1.30 tons. Q. — Cin you say generally what is the actual horse power as compared with the registered horse power? A.— That de- pends on the engine — it will run say from six to tv* Ive times as much as the nominal registered power. Q. — The registen'd i)ower is the nominal? A -The regis- tered is the nominal. Cross-examination by Mr. Warren: Q. — In what year did you first remember the "Thornton"? A.— About 1874. (l — She was a sloop then? .\. — Yes. Q. — Do you ri'niember lier length? A. — I do not remember her length, she was a vessel. I should say, about 80 feet long. Q. — Eighty feet? A.— .\bout that; I do not know exactly. Q. — When you gave your idea of the value of the "Thorn- ton," did you think she was 80 feet long? A. — I never meas- ured her. Q. — What was her beam? .V. — .\bout 18 feet, I should think. I ': lO 20 984 (J«»hii liviiifj; — Cross.) Q.— Wliiit was tlic dcplli of Iht holit? A.— 1 slionld ju<1k<' iiliont seven feet. (i.— Wliiit W(»ul(l her (ouiiiiRe be? A — KeKistered or groBS? (2. — Hefjist* red? A. — I should sa.v that she was a vessel that would reffister about 4(1 tons. {}. — With the deductions made on account of the machin- ery? .\ — Yes. of cours<' this is only ku<'ss work. I never nu'asniH'd the vessel, and it is lookiu}; at her alongside the dock that I tigiire on. Q. — That is 4(» tons with the deductions made on account of the machinery? A. — It nmy be more than that, but I can- not tell yon. Q. — 1 want to tind out what yon mean by the 40 tons. Do you mean after the deductions weie made? A. — I should judge it was somewhere about that. Q. — It might be more? A. — It might be more. Q. —When you gave your idea of the '? A. — I cannot tell yon. Q. — Have you been accustonud to deal with boats very much larger than the "Thornton" ? A. — All sizes, I have had to do with both smaller and larger. i.i. — What small boat did yc,u ever have anything to do with? A.— The "Standard." I built her here. Q. — She was 130 tons? A. — No, she registered abont SO tons. Q. — Was she a sleiiUK r? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— ^^'hat did she cost to build in 18!»0? A.— Betwe«'n thirteen and fourteen iliotisand dollars. Q. — Without hei' slcaiu? A. — No, altogether. Q.— Without her steam, what did sh«" cost? A.— The hull? Q. — Yes. A. — I think flie contract price was between four and live thousand dollais. Q. — Was she a yacht? A. — She was not n yacht, but she looked like one. Q. — She was nicely finislu'd? A. — Yes, she was a very nice little boat. hIic was built for cannery work for towing. ii. — Was she ii lug? A. — She was used for that purpose. ii. — l>o you think it would have cost about f 0,000 t(» build (he hull of (he "Thornton" in 1SS0? A.— I think it was scune- where abou( (hat j>rice. ii. — Tha( is if she w;is abou( SO fee( in lengdi, 7 feet deejt in (he hold .lUd IS feet beam? A.— Yes. sir. iy — And registered 4(t (cms with deductions made for the machinery? .\. — In (ha( neighluuhood. ii. — You think that i( would cost between two and three thousand dollars (o prepare that boat to leceive her steam? A. — To |>u( (he whole Oiing in I should (liink i( would cost between (wo and Ihi'ee i!iou.sand dollars. "Thornton" at between eight and ten thousand dollars, you had in your mind that it would cost two or three thousand dollars to get her ready? A. I'es, of course she was a schooner before, and of course they would have to open her. Q — You have not answered Mie question. A. — I valued the vessel at about eight to ten tliousand dollars with her ma- < hinery in her. Q- — What is your idea ef the cost of the machinery in th(> "Thornton?" A.— I should say that the boiler and tlie whole business, of course I have not seen the machinery Q — Vou must have some idea of it when you are testifving to it. The ('(mimissioner on the part of (he United States:— If he has not seen the machinery he cannot say what it is worth. Q.— Hut he told us that the vahie of the vessel, including the machinery was ten thousand dollars, that her value was six thousand dollars, exclusive of the machinery, and the cost of putting in the machinery was two or three thousand dol- lars. Xow. Caplain Irving, what is your idea of the cost of the machinery in the "Thornton?" " A.— I understood that the cylinder was a (i-iuch cylinder, with a ll'-inch stroke, and for the boiler and engine, I would say the contiiict jtrice would not be less than !!|;2,.")(M». Q- — Captain Irving, in your biisiness exj. . iiine you have learned the fact that vessels depreciate in value as they grew old. A. — Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not, it «le- j)ends on their business. Q. — Is the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and up in Hehiing Sea an easy place on vessels? A. — .lust as easy as in any other part of the world; it is not anv worse a coast than the Atlantic. Q. — Do you know what time the "Thorntcm" was built? A. — No, I do not Q.— Well, if Uie "Thornton" was built in 18(il and slie was rebuilt to a certain extent — and ]»erhai»s to a very large ex- tent — in 1S77 — do you think she would depreciate in value uj) to 1880? A. — Jt w(»uld de])end on how she was constructed and the material, if she was built of certain kinds of timbor she might be nitten at that time. (.i. — If she were built of Douglas 111' would she dejtreciate? .\. — That would depend ujion the season of the year the tir was cut; If it was during the winter months and the saj) was out of it, the mateiial wound and there were two cylinders. The Commissioners took recess at 1 o'clock. 40 50 60 At 2.30 o'clock the Commissioners resumed their seats. John A. Thomson was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain and was duly sworn and examined in the "Thornton" case. Direct examination by Sir C. II. Tupper: Q._What is your position, Mr. Thomson? A.— I am In- spector of Machinery and Boilers for the Province' of British (Columbia, and Inspector of IIuIIh for the Skeena District, and Measuring Surveyor of Shii>ping for (lie Province of British Columbia. Q.--Y0U are In the service of the Dominion Oovcinmmt? A.— Yes. Q. — How long have you held that position? A. — Six and a lialf years. Q. — \Vho was your predecessor? A. — My immediate i)re- decessor was W. A. Kussell. Q. — And who before him? A. — There was a locum tenens, William Nicholas. Q. — Where are these gentlemen? A. — Mr. Nicliolas is dead, and I do not «'\actly know where Mr. Russt'll is. Q. — Have vou the books of the office in vour posHession? A.— Yes. Q. — When boil(>rs are inspected and certificates given in connection with boilers and engines, are rtH'ords kept by the officers in your position? A. — Yes Q. — And you have these records for British Columbia? A. — Yes, sir. 987 (John A. Tlioiiiwm— Direct.) Q.— You have been asked to bring witli you the records re atmg to the "Thornton" and some other vessels in dispute Ijere.' A.— Yes, sir. * A— Flmvr "^"^ ^'"'*'*' ^""''^ ''* I*'"''^*'"* '" '^'<*""' Possession? Q.— Just turn up the record of the "Thornton"' A —I have it. lo 9-~y^'i?.* ^^^^ 'S ♦•>«♦? A.— 8th October, 1885. Q.— Is the record long? A.— Not verv long, there is a statement of tonnage and the dimensions of the vessel and descriptions of the engine and boilers. ' Mr. Dickinson :— Whose record is that? The witness :-lt is a record of Edward Viger, who is dead. Q.— Will you please read that record for the "Thornton"? 20 ...^'•""';,«f vessel "Thornton." Port of registry, Victoria B.C. Port and date of inspection, Victoria, Oct 8th S Owner and residence. J. D. Warren, Victoria B. C. Tons ut ;n^;<;^^due :^sr'^^ S^'t^' *""""»^^'' ''■''■ 8th ISS'^ tT .1 ! .• ^ "^'^ "^ payment, October B r IHt.Jf ^^ »'» ;'"om ii' I 'r ^"?S:'^nes8, U. S. Dimensions of hull ?Z..« H il%"^/'^^"'*'-^^ ^^''""♦'»' '^- feet; breadth, 19 feet 2-l()ths; depth, 5 feet 1-lOth. Wood or iron, wood vo5""^"\?*~";^l"'*'' '*"''' ™""^' 2- Spread of canvas 240 jards. No. of funnels, size and height, one, 12x12. No and dimensions of boats, one, lGx4x2. Equipment of boats and No. oars ea<-h, i oars. P. R. No. of life presenters and buoys where placed, 1 buoy. No. and weight of anchoi-s, size ?nn ,K°^ \t"' ''''''""' ""*^' *"" 'b'^' ^"♦^ fathoms f chain; one, 40 100 lbs No. of signals and lamps, if a fog bell, 3 signals; 6 lamps, 1 bell. No. of passenger staterooms. No. passengers allowed, no passengers allowed. No. crew all told, five all told. Diameter and pitch screw, revolutions of engine, 3xftxfi, 125 revolutions. Draught of water, light and loaded, 5 feet light, 7 feet loaded. Limited draught of water licht and loaded, 6 feet. General ((ualities.— If sail under canvas alone, yes. Speed in miles under steam. 4 miles. Fitness for route, seaworthy qualities, good. Boilers. — . No. of steam gauges, 1. No. of water glass do., 1. Range of do., do., in. Roller Test. — Test and Condition of Boilers. — Hydraulic lest pressure in pounds per scpnire inch, 110 jtounds. State of boiler under same, whether good, fairly good. Indifferent or bad, good. Working pressure allowed, 52 lbs. Adjustment of safety valves, by whom, when last adjusted, whether tinder steam or by water pressure, same time as rest by Insi)ector I']. S. Viger. Were the boilers cleaned previous to test, yes. Were they examined inside, yes. Were tliey examined outside, and by whom, yes, E. S. S'iger. The inspector will here state the condition in whihc he finds the boilers; if neglected and badly used, by whom, very fair. Boiler bed. in what material laid, is the bottom wet or dry, cast iron cradle. Cradle fasten- ings. ^ in. bolts. Holding down bolts and braces, and to what secured, 1ft. x iin. straps to keelson. Q. — I put in your hand exhibit ID, G. B., being the certi- ficate of survey relating to the "Thornton." in wliich it ap- pears that the number of horse j)ower combined is 1.21, and 1 would ask you ^[r. Thomson what actual luvrse power that registered horse power would represent; state about it? A. f)0 — T'liat is not quite correct there, it is a little small Iri that siii vey. Q. — First, if you like, take a look at your book, and state what you would say her actual horse power was? A. — By the revolutions as given in this report here and the cut-off as given here, she ought to run from Kilo 1,') hoi-se power, it de- pends a good deal on the circumstances. Q. — You say that the nominal horse power in the survey seems to be underst.nted in your opinion? A.— The nominal 9% (Joliii A. Tlioiiison — Direct — (.'ros«.) horae p<^wel• is got b.v squaiinjj tli<. diainetor of i\w tvlindcr, iind dividin}; by 30; the square of C^ is 42^, and ao into that is *i- — Tl'iit i** tlu' way the nominal horse power is reached under fhe British M.'rdiiint Hhippinf; Act? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Now, Mr. Tlionison. liaving read the description of this holier and engine. I ask you what, approximately, would be ,,, the cost of tliat in Victoria in lS8o? I refer to" the engine boih'r and attachments? A.— The boiler at that time was Kuen as five years old. Q.— I say having read that description of the boiler and en>',ine, what would the boiler and enjjine and attachments approximately cost when new to be constructed in \Mctorla about that period? A.— |;2,fi()(» or |2.7(»0. (i.— Did you, or did you not, actual Iv see the "Thornton'"' A.— Oil, yes. I have seen the '-Thornton." Q.— And this engine and boilcM? A.— I have seen them, but 2o not to examine them. ' ^•~I"." '"'^■•*- *'*' " ""'^ter of fact, seen them, but not in your official capacity? a.— Ves, sir. ('ross-exaniinati»m by Mr. Dickinson: Q.-You have the Uegistry shown to you, and you sav, that, estimating from your own record, the horse power is a little smaller there? A. — Yes, sir. (i.— The difference is between 1.2 and 1.4. A —Yes sir 30 . Q;77Wh«^ie did you say that that boiler was made? A — .\t \ictoria. by Robertson. Q.— The boiler was made in Victoria? A.— Davie was the man that constructed it under Robertson & Son. Q.— Is that part of your own report? A.— Yes. Q.— Does this correspond with what vou have read? A — Yes. Q.— Have you examined it to show that it does correspond with the recor(i you iiave read? A. — Yes, sir. Q.- Now. when you say that her horse power is from 1.3 to 40 1") you mean that thai is the utmost capacity? A.— That is what it would work uii to. Q.— It is not i»erm!tted though to use that? A.— Yes, it is. Q.— The highest capacity? .\.— Yes. Q. — How miirh pressure was she allowed? A. — 52. Q. — How much was her capacity? A. — How do you mean? Q.— How luiiih pressure? Ywer? A, — Oh, yes, they could get 15 horse power out of her. m m ii II «■ ■%• lO 20 30 40 50 60 (Julm A. Tliuiiisuu — CroBH.) Q. — Will yoii tell uh how you get that horse powei"? From what nu'Msurenieut? A. — From the area of the piston. Q — Which is how much? A. — The area of the piston is abont 33i s(iuare inches, or thei-eabouts, and at 6^ diameter it would be Xi and a little fraction. Q. — Tell us how you get that? A. — You multiply that by the pressure upon it, and by the number of feet the piston travels per minute, and divide by 38,000; that gives you the horse power. Q. — That is the way you fiarure it from 13 to 15 horse pow- er? A. — Yes, ^^ir. Q. — Is tliere anything you want to add to that to malie it clear? A. — Tliat is clear enough to me, but I don't know about anyone else. Q. — All I want to know is if that is the way you arrive at it? A. — Yes, sir Q. — You take into consideration nothing but what you have stated? A. — Not to get the horse power. Q. — Have you been engaged in the busines of mechanics at all? A.— Oh. yes, sir. Q. — In a machine shop? A, — Yes, sir. Q. — Here in Victoria? A. — No, sir Q. — Whereabouts? A. — In England. (.1. — Did you have any experience in the construction of en- gines and boilers at current prices? A. — A little; not much. Q. — And you have estimated at tliis period, for which you have the inspection, the cost as new? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you ascertain from your inspection that the boiler had been over tive years in the "Thornton?" It is given as tive years in the "Thornton?" A. — Yes. Q. — And, theivfore, the engine has been there that length of time, as you undei-stand it? A. — Yes, sir, I understand so. Q. — Having estimated it at the time of inspection, of which you have read, by the tigures you have named, what is the value of that engine and boiler, it having been in use for five years? A. — You might understand that they are not in a condition of being used for five years, because these boats, of course, were only used in the sealing business, and they were only out a certain time in the year. Q. — Do not argue the question, because you may not know that this vessel was used in other business? A. — I did not know it. Q. — She was used in the coal and trading business on the coast to some extent. A.— I am giving it on what the In- spector says here; it gives the condition of the engines as be- ing "fair," and tlie condition of the boiler as being "very fair," and so the boat musi have been kept in good repair. Q. — Will you get to tlie question and answer it? You es- timated this as new at this period, now having been in use for live years what was tlie boilei- and engine wortli? A. — Off- hand it would not be easy to say. I see that she was kept in good repair, and it does not necessarily follow that de- preciHtion would go on to certain extent all the time: it is generally taken in the matter of cost as a depreciation of 7 1-2 per cent Q. — Now, I will ask you about this imrticular boiler and en- gine. Do you mean to say that the boiler and engine hav- ing been in uw for fiv(> years it would sell for anything like 7 1-2 per cent, off |2,700? \.—l have no doubt in the world it would. Q._Tt would sell for that second hand and having been five years in use? A. — I have no doubt it would. Jy " 991 lO 40 (John A. Thomson— l)e-direi't—Re-ci'088. Gordon T. Grant- Direct.) Rcdiri'ct exinnination by Sir C. H. Tupper: Q.— Perhaps jou could give your reason for that. A.— My reason is given liere, this independent inspector reports that everything is "very fair," "fair" in the official language of the book, means good, and "good" means excellent. Re-crossexamination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — Did you look over these books to see whether there was any other inspection of the "Thornton"? A.— Yes, sir, I have got three years here, and owing to the circumstances of the case, when the inspector died during his term, another locum tenens was appointed and he was not very particular in what he put down; it takes three years to cover them and get a proper statement. Q.— And you have taken that from the latest one? A.— 1 have taken it from wherever it comes in in the latest one. Q— What was the latest one? A.— This one here, 188.5. Q.— In making the statement yon have made here, have you referred to a prior insi)ectlon also? A.— 1883 and 1884. (i.— And you have not referred alone to the inspection of 1885? A.— 1885 is the one I read. Q-— You have read that? A.— Yes. Q.— In what way have you n-ferred to the other two in- spections? A.— To see what I could learn from them. Q.— But yon have not read into the language of the state- ment that has been taken down anvthing outside the inspec- ilTJ!-'*, i^^^- ^^— ^^'i- » i" t-ntirely out of the inspection for 1885, I have not even found the other inspection, but I know that it IS here. Q.— I thought you said you read them? A.— Some of them ,. *i~^'?" ^"•^'<' not put into this record here anvthing but the one inspection? A.— No, sir. h ""t nrSri^r*^ ^''^'^ '*^'**''*'' •*"■'' ''" P"'''"- A.-Yes, thev are all ft ,?n nVr-f*' ""* ^''^T '^" ^^"^ ""^^^^ ""'^ y«t' but I will look It up now if you wish. Re-direct examination by Sir 0. H. Tupper: .1 *^,"~T*!® statement you have itad from this book refers to the last inspection? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— That is the record of 1885? A.— Yes. Q.— And nothing thiit you have seen in anv other entrv .ef- fects your opinion? A.-No. I merely saw a prior entry ia the index, I have not seen it vet. 11 I 1 • SO Gordon F. Grant was called as a witness on the part of Great Britain and was duly sworn and examined in the "Thornton" case. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tupphiiiist by trade. Q.— You knew the "Thornton"? A.— Yes, sir, I knew her. ■j^ 992 (Hoitlou F. (hunt— l>ir»Ml— ll«'flK'rt <1. LewiH— Dlivct— Crowt.) Q. — Yon liavi' Imm'Ii in tlu' ronrt ntoni wliile Mr. Thomson • WHH ^ivin); IMh I'vidonct'? A. — Y«'8, Hir. (i. — And v«»n luiv«' liHtoncd atlt'ntivi'lv to him? A. — Yes, Hir, I did. ii. — An' .von, ncn»Miillv spciilxin)!, of tlu' Hiinie opinion lis lie is? A. — I thinlc Mr. Tliomson's viilnation wonid be a very fair IQ valuation as n(>ar as I could judp'. (j.--And as to wliat h*> said as r«>*;)irds the nominal horse power and the iictnal horse power, von agree with what he has stated? A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Diekiuson: — Theiv is no eross-exaniiuation. 3« Herbert (1. Li'wis was railed as a witness on the part of ^° tSreat Kritain and was duly sworn and examined in the "Thornton" ease. Direct examination by Sir <'. H. Tapper: (2. — Mr. Lewis, you weiv for some time agent of the I)e ]mrtment of Marine and Fishenes in Victoria? A. — I was, sir. Q. — And previous to that you were Marine Surveyor? A. — Marine Surveyor for the underwriters in San Francisco. Q. — At tlie port of Victoria? A. — Yes. sir. ii. — About when did vou cease to discharge these duties? A.— At the end of the year 188;{. I think. Q. — Then you went into the Government service? A. — Yes. Q. — You are not in the (Sovernment service now? A. — I am shipping master now. Q. — You are not agent for the Marine and Fisheries Depart- ment now? A. — No, sir. Q. — You were asked to produce the last suiTey yon made of the steam schooner "Thornton." were you not? A. — I do 4° not know if it was the last time I did survey her. Q. — Were you asked to prodn<'e the surveys in your pos- session? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — fan you now proose of this trial. Received and mark*^! "Exhibit 51, O. B., Claim No. 2." Ci-oss-examination by Mr. Dickinson: 6o Q. — That is your signature? A. — Yes, sir. Q — Is the paper in your handwriting? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Did you make the ins))ection personally? A. — I did. Q. — You went on the ship? A. — Yes, sir. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — I would like .o have that pajier, Exhibit 51, read now. Sir C. H. Tapper read the i»aper. SO (Hfl licit (J. Ja-wIh— ClOHB.) Ci(.HH».x»miiiialioii hy Mv. Di.kiiison coiitiniicd: ().— A|Miit fioni tlu' paper do you mueinber the facts in re- Kiiid to niakiiiK thin huivc^? A.— Yes. Hir Q.— irad til.' Nhip then Imm'ii ovcihaiik-d? A.— As far as I HM-oII.Mt Hlw had iMMMi ovciliaulpd. (i.— She had Imm'u taken off the ways? A.— 1 think «he lo iiad been off the wa.vs, I do not recollect. Q.— The ol.jei t of niakinp .v<.ur survey was because she had '«" 7'!"«n'h«>r that she had been recently on Q.— Pan you tell u« what you mean by callinjr her in orettv f^ll - •^■~^^^""' •^'"^ ^"^ '" '^""'^ "••^«'' "« f"r a« that Q.— T am not askinir for your memory of it now but for your own interpi-etation of your own laiiijuajre' A —Well that means ffood order. ^ k • ^^- >»eii, Q.— Does it mean tirst class? A.— Well, yes. sir. I think NO, Q.— Did yon think she was a prettv old ship then' \ — W.> did not tind out where she was built or anything in tiiose 30 "•"'"■ .T^*',?!""""'"''""'''''' '■''^"med the consideration of the cases of the "Anna Reck." "Dolphin," "Orace," and the "W P Sav- ward" ■ • Mr. Peters:— Allow me to put in for the information of the court the rcfristries of tliese ships. I put them in as follows- lows: |'<.py of the Ui-niHivi of (he 'W. TV Savward," (Maim No 6 ^^ Keceived and marl^cd "Kxliibit ^^2, U. I!., Claim N. 6. Cop.v of the Kefrjster of the "Anna Reck." Tlaim No. 7. Keceived and marked "Kxliibit '•.•{. (J. H. Claim No. 7" ropy of (he Re^n.sTcr of (lie "Dolphin," Claim No. !>. Received and marked "Kxliibit ".4, (}. P. Claim No. 9." <^>I)y of the Hcfjister of the "(irace," Claim No. 10. Received and marked "Kxliibit of), (J. B. Claim No. 10." Tlie Commissioner an the jiart of the Ignited States:- What 18 the p-oss toiiiiafre of the "Dol]>Iiin" as it is stated there? Mr. Peters:- flfi.24 tons. The Commissioner on the part of the United States —What is her aj^e? 5C Mr. Peters:— Ruilt in Victoria in 1882. The Commissioner on the part of the TTnitt'd States: the same particulars about the other ships. -State Mr. Peters:— Tlie -'Grace." was built in Victoria in 1881 (3o f,"'oss tonnage s:j.Ol. ' The "Anna Keck" was built in San Francisco in 1865, gross tonnage 41.17, I believe she was increased afterwards. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— What IS tlie da(e of that Register. Mr. Peters.— 14th February, 1881. The "W. P. Say ward" was built in Victoria in 1882 her gross tonnago was 64.11. ' 63 I i . ; :( ; ij If wi 994 (John A. ThoiiiMon— Diiect.) TlwHc (IuiitH I'oiitaiti the record of tlii'Se ^Ir. I'ctcrH: Nhi)w down to till- piTMeiit tiiue ^ii 20 30 John A. ThoniNon wns rocnllcd as a wltnons on the part of '° (ireat Hiituin. Hir ('. II. TiipjKr:— We tninHfer the introductory evidence of this witness from the "Tliornton" case to tliese cases. Direct examination by Hir ('. II. Tnitper: Q. — I asli you, Mr. Thomson to turn up tlie record of the "Anna Reclv" from that Itook of yours and state it to us. "Name of vessel, 'Anna Bei-lt.' I'ort of registtry, Vic- t(Hia. H. <'. Port and dti:c decl;, 51 ..'{7. Houst's on dcfl», (!.'Jf(. (Sross lonnafi*, "»7.(J(». Deduttions, !).1(». Ilejjistercd tonnajTi', 4S.r>(). lns|)ection dues and fws, ^~.'.V2 — 9'2M'2 dues. fxdO f»H's. Date of payment. January Hlli, 1XS4. To wh(un and wliere j»nid. Colh'ctor, Victoria. Date of ••ertitlcate. -Fanuary 2(l(h, IMSi"). Date «>f issue. January L'tttli. ISH.'). Freif,'ht. jiassentier or tug. frei^lit. I'addle or si-rew. screw. Koute. waters of M. C. Year and wliei-e linilt. San Francisco, IHoCi. DiniensioUH of Iiuil. lenjjtli 71 feet I tentlis; fnun cerliticate of Itreadtli, '22 fe<'t r. tentlis. Ke;j;istry depth, 7 feet 2 tenths. Wo. Dimensions of furnace, if circular, di- anieter, 22 diameter. Extreme lenpth; lenpth between rinps, thickness of ]date, 7. Whether butt or lap joint, sinple or dcuble ri>'etcd, with or witliout bevel, Itij). single, without bevel. No., diameter, lenpth and thickness of flues, see furnace. No. outside diameter and lenpth of tubes, 40 tubes, 2i dia., 7 lonp. Depth of back connection, external. Diameter of, and thickness (ff, plate in steam chimney, outside and inside, J plate. 27x24 dianu'ter. Dimension of furnace, 2.'?x.'?. Thickness of jdates in shell of boiler. 5-10. Do. of Hanpe jilate in steam macliin<'ry, 5-1(5. Name of maker of plates in shell of boiler, whether steel or iron, unknown, iron. Do. in furnaces, and whether steel or iron, ircm. Per (>ent. of strenpth of plate at lonpitudinal joint, as compared to the solid plate, (15 [hm' cent, of plate and 1)8 j)er cent, of rivets, 40 '.o 60 9'j5 (.Foliii A. TlioiMMou— Diiccl.) TMiiinH.'i- ami pitrli of rivi-in in luiiKitinliinil join!, 'tSxi pitch. Wlu'rli.T l.iitl or |ii|i joint, jnp, Douhl*' or Hinirio i1v.'t.'I<>h iirc cirill.Ml or iMinrluMl, imni-lifd. ' "Stii.vM:— \o. iind ile s • e m, d v vions to tes ? Yes. Were they e.vamin,Hl inside? Vs,r« possible. Were they examined ontside and b wl.m.-V v whom I. Kood order and condition. Hoiler bed in what ..lateral laid wood. Is the hoi ton. wet or drv? d.-v Cnd e asten.nKs. chocks; ir.m straps, wood. Il.ddin,. own Ss and bi-aces, and to what scared, screws to keelsons Q.—lH that the last inspection of the "Anna B.'ck" that v«u ;,:;;; ;;;;{ '» ^'"' •••'<'<»''1«? A.-Tl.at is the last, as far as i ^° V *i— ^'"".'••'"'l f'-""' id you know the ship "Anna Beck?" A.— Only just to see her. li 99(5 10 20 30 40 SO A. — Yes, sir. about the sanu'x j \. (John A. ThoiiiHon — Direct.) Q. — What valuo would yon place upon her boiler, engine and attachments from that record? A. — It might be worth a little more than the"Thoruton'8'' because it is a larger seize. Q. — About what wotuld it be worth? A. — 1 would jiut it at about the same price as the "Thornton's" owing to it being practically a duplicate, it might be a little larger, but it ia as nearly as possible a duplicate. Q. — It is larger as a umtler of fact? ii. — But you ANould jdace the value at — Yes, sir. Q. — Turn now to the record of the "Grace" and state what it says from your book. "Xame of vessel, "drace." Tort registry, Victoria. Port and date of inspection, Victoria, H. ('..March .*?, 1HS5. Own- er and residence, J. D. Warren & Co., Victoria. Tons under tonnage deck, 7S..')1. Houses on deck, 4I^(). dross tonnage, Si\A)\. Deductions. (i.l4. Registered tonnage, 7ti.87. In- siM'ction dues and fees, if:!.:?!'. |i.5.()(>— |iS..S2. Date of payment, JIarch 2nd. ISS.'t. To whom and where paid, collector, Vic- toria. Date of certiticate. iiarch 1 4th, 18Sr.. Date of issue, March t4th, 1S8.5. Freight, passenger or tug. freight and jKissenger. I'addle or screw, screw. Konte. waters of Brit- ish Columbia. Year and where built, 1881, Victoi-ia, B. C. Dimensions of hull from c(M'tifical(> of registry, length, 7(! feet 5 tenths; breadth, 2:? feet 4 tenths; depth, 8fet;t. Wood . No. and dimensions of boats, 2. I.").\."ix22 and 17x4.(!x20. Equipment of boats and N(». of oars each. oars. No. of metallic fire buckets in rack, G Itnckets. No. of axes and where jdaced, 4, variously. No. of life ])reservers and buoys, where placed, 30 life preservers, 1 buoy aft. No. and weight of anchors, 2, 600 and 70(> ])ounds; size and length of chain, 00 fathoms, i (*hain. No. <»f signals and lamps, if a fog bell, .'{ signals, (i lanterns. 1 Im'11 and horn. No. passengers allowed, 25 jms- sengers. No. of crew all told and No. of officers for deck, ,T all told. 1 officer. No. and size of iiand fii'e engine ])umps, .'{x4. No. and size of jMuiy pumps. :{x4. Lenih and size of hose and where ]>laced, .'0 U nautical miles. Fitness for route, seawoithy iinalities, good. I'rotectiim from fire, from coal oil, go(»d; from boilers, from kitclien. good. Boilers. (Seneral I'^orm and Dimensions: — -Forni of l)oiler, No. of boiler and age, cylindrical, 4 years. Dimension of, width, length, height, cxtrdne iieight. 48 in diameter, 7 feet long. No. furnace and liiickness of plate. 1, r>-l(i. Dimension of furnace if circular, diameter. :{x2. Kxti-eme length, 7. Whether Imtt or lap joint, laj); with oi- without bevel, with- out Ik'VcI. No. outside diameter and length of tuls's, ."»!( tubes, 2J dia.. 7 long. Depth of back connection, exteinal. 'ameler and pitch of rivets in longitudinal joints. 2x5. NVhc ier butt or lap joint, lap, 997 lO (John A. Thomson — Diroct.) Double or single liveteil, double. Whetlier rivet holes are drilled or punched, punched. "Stays, Steam Drum: — Nuniber and size of stays in steam drum head, 4, J, 20 long. To what secured? sides. Stay power in shell of boiler — No. and diameter of through bolts from end to end of boiler, 4, 1 diametiT. Mean stay strength per scjuare inch of boiler, compared to strength of cylindrical shell at longitudinal joints, ecjual to shell. "fieneral Kemarks: — Age of boiler, by whom nuide 4 years, Spratt, \'ictoiia. Class, good, fairly good, indifferent, bad, fairly good. When icpaircd, what repairs, 1884, repair- ed. When last lifted, 18S4. What provision for cleaning, good. How often cleaned, as requii-ed. Reductions below full standard of strength. iT) jtei' cent. Why deductions, fur- uac«>. "Engine, Engine and machinery: — Compound, condensing or higli pressure compound condensing. Xo. and diameter of 2o <-ylinders, 2 cyliuder.s, 12xad, good. Working pressure allowed, 80 poimds. Ad- 40 justment of safety valves, by wIkuu, wli 'u last adjustnl, whether undei' steam oi- water pressure, .siim(> time as test by E. S. Vi<;er. Were the boilers bottom wet or dry, wood with wr<»ught iron cover. Cradle fnsteiiimrs, iron bolts, 1. Chocks, wood. H(dding down bolts and braces, and to what secured; one in. 50 bolts secured to bottom timbers. Q- — I will ask you In tiis case, as I did in the other, about what the actual lau'se power is? .\. — I would make it over 23. Q. — And what is the ncmiinal? A. — fi.2. Q. — That is a larger descriptimi of engine and boiler than you have already spoken of? .\. — Yes, sir. *-l — What would you value the^ engine, boiler and neces sary attachment at in 1883? The Commisshmer (m the part of the United States:— Do you nu an as new, w tiiking into consideration its age? Sir C. H. Tujtper:— I think it better to take it in 1885; he is judging undoubtedly from that report. (To the witness): What was the value in 1883? A.— About |t3,300. Q.— The nominal horse power of the "Grace" is stated in the Registry as 13, and the stroke is given here as 12, and the 60 it ;■■ lO 20 30 998 (John A. ThoiiiHon — Direct.) diaiiK'tcr of tlic cylinder, 12 inches and G^ inches, what do yon estimate tlie horse imwer of tliat ship to be? A. — Tlie square of <>i is 42.25, and the sfpiare of 12 is 144, add that tojjether and you have 1H(!.25, divide tliat by :{(> and it gives you 6.2 as the nominal horse power. Q. — <(.2 is what is known as the nominal horse power for the pui"po8e ofthe Kegister? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — You think that is incorrect? A. — It is put down at that, but that is not according to the Merchant Shipping Act. Q. — Is that the last entry you can find relating to the "Grace"? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — Please tura up the record for the "Dolphin" and read it. "Name of vessel, "Dolphin." I'ort of registry, Victoria, B. C Port and date of inspection, Victoria, November 2nd, 1885. Owner and residence, J. 1). Warren, Victoria, li. C. Tons under tonnage deck, (il.'JS. Houses on deck, 4.30. (Jross tonnage, (>2.«4. Detluctions, «.14. Registered ton- nage, Ott.KI. InsjM'ctiim dues and fees, $7.08. Date of pay- ment, November 2nd, 1885. To whom and where paid, col- lector, Victoria. Date of certificate, November 2ud, 1885. Date of issue, December 1st, 1885. Freight, passenger or t>ig, freight and deck passenger. I'addle oi' screw, screw. Route, waters of B. C. Year and where built, 1882, Vic- toria. Dimensions of hull fiom (ertitlcate of registry, length, 77 feet; breadth, 22 feet 7 tenths; depth 7 fwt 5 tenths. \ViMiciiMion of furnace, 24x1!. Thickness of 40 50 plates in shell of boilei Thickness of plates in steam drum, i. Xame of maker of plates n shell of boiler, whether steel or iron, Xorway iron and steel, Vassa steel. Do. in :r^ 999 (Joliii A. ThoniHoii — Direct.) furnac<»8, and whcdii'r steel or iron, steel. Tensile strength of plates in shell to the 8(iuare inch, «!(>,(•(»(» ixiunds. Per cent, odd strength of i»late at longitudinal joint, as compared to tlie solid plate, (!4 plates, 1(W rivet. Diameter and pitch of rivets in longitudinal joint, 3x2]. Whether butt or lap joint, butt. DiHible or single riveted, double, 4 rows. Whether d(mble or single butt straps, double. Whether rivet ,f, holes are drilled or punched, drilled. VVlu4her burrs are re- moved, buri-s removed. "Stays, Steam Diiim: — Number and size of stays in steam drum liead, 1, IJ diameter. To what secured, shell to head. Size of opening in shell in steam drum, 12, !J drilled holes. Strength of shell within steam drum, ('(jual. Stay power in shell of boiler. No. and diameter of through b(dfs from end to end of boiler, 1| dia. (» number. Mean stay strength jier square inch of boiler, compared to strength of cylindrical shtU at longitudinal joints, eijual fo pressure and shell 20 power. "General Kemarks:— Age of boiler, by whom made, 1 vear. Albion lr(m Works, ^'ictoria. Class, good, fairly good, in- different, bad, good. What provision for cleaning, good. How often cleaned, as required. Reductions below full standard of strength, ncme. "Boiler Fittings, Safety \'alves, &c.:— No. and size of lock- ed 8afet.> valves, spring or lever, 1, :{. Size of steel. No. of coils, and length of spiiug when opened, g, i» coils, 11 long. Area of locked valve to square foot of grate, do. open valves, 30 i to each sipiare foot, | (o eacii scjuare f(M>t. Area of opened locked valves to scpiare foot of grate, 1 to each sijuare foot. No. of try cocks and height of lowest above highest heating surface, .3, 2^. No. of steam gauges, 2. No. water glass do., 1. Range of do. do., 9. "Hoiler Test, Test and Condition of Hollers:— Hydraulic test pressure in iMMinds per sijuare inch, UW pounds. State of boiler under same, whetlu'r good, fairly good, indifferent or bad, good. Working pressure allowed," 110 pounds. Ad- ^Q justment of safety valves, by whom, when last adjusted, whether undi 1 steam or by water jiressure, same time as test under water by K. S. Viger. Were the boilers cleaned pre- vious to test, yes. Were they examined, yes. Were they ex- amined inside and by whom, yes. Were tlu>y examined out- side and by whom, yes, E. S. Viger. The inspector will here state the conditicm in which he finds the boilers; if neglected and badly used, by whom, very good. Uoiler iM-d, in what nuiterial laid, is tli(> bottom wet or dry, timbers cased with iron. Cradle fastenings. 1] through bolts. Holding down 50 bolts iind braces, and to what secured, braces to timbers. Hand pumj* for sujiplying and testing boilers when steam is not uj). Diameter and stroke, 4x0. I may mention there is no statement of tFie engine, I can take it out of ractically, of that in the "Grace''? A.— Oh, yes. I know it was; and it is in one of tlie other ones. ° (i. — How in one of the other ones? A. — A year back. Sir C. H. Tapper:— Perhaps that would be admitted; it is a fact that they were duplicates. Mr. Dickinson:— I am [H'rfectly willing that he should read from the other inspection. Sir C. H. Tapper:- AVill yon turn to the nearest inspection? ^ 11 20 30 tooo (John A. Tliomson — T>iroct— Prcsrt.) Tlu' Coiuiiiissioiu'r on the part of the TTnitod States : — Do T nndt'i'Htand tliis boiler was only a year old? Sir C. H. Tapper: — A j-ear old in 1885, and it was a steel boiler. Witness: — I haven't got it. Q. — Can .von get it? A. — I can get it. Q. — Will yon be good enough to look for the nearest inspec- tion to this date? A. — Of course I conld furnish what is here. Q. — Will you Im' good enough to bring us that other record. In the absence of that do you know sufficient of the engine of the "Dolphin" to give me tlu' same opinion as to the boiler and engine of that ship as yon did as to the others? A. — f:?,40(>. Q. — Do you take into consideration the steel boiler? A. — Yes. sir, $3,400 or $3,500. Q. — Wonld yon make the same calculation as to horse power as you made in the case of the "Grace"? A. — This boat ought 1o indicate more. Q. — Speaking generally, much more? A. — Might gain three or four horse power, three anyhow; might be more. The Commissioner on the part of the United States: — Why would it indicate more? A. — There is a difference between 110 pounds' pressure than SO, to begin with; and it is also a larger boiler. Cross-examination by Mr. Dickinson: Q. — And the jjressnre allowed has something to do with yonr arriving at the lior.se power? A. — The actual horse power. Q. — 1 desire to ask the witness one question as to the "Thornton." liy whom was the boiler and engine built, as ap- pears by the books — the "Thornton'"? A. — Ily Robertson, Victoria, — the boiler. 40 Q. — Now, as to the engine? A. — There was no record of that. Q. — As to the "Thornton," the name of the maker, plates and shell of boiler, Bloonifleld. Does Bloomfleld indicate the maker? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — And the same is true of the furnaces? A. — Well, yes, that wonld be the same. Q. — The same information as to furnaces built by Bloom- Held? A.— That is the maker of the plate itself. Q. — I am in some little confusion as to your r.ielhod of ar- 5^ riving at the actual horse-power, .\ccording ro your explan- ation of the difference between the actual horse-power as you arrived at it, and the registered horse-power in the "Thorn- ton" case. I uiideistod you to state that tlie pressure allowed would have nothing to do with your statement of the horse power of Ihe engine? .\.— That is nominal horse power, or what is on the registei'. (}. — You do not mean to be nnders((K)d that if the capacity of the hydraulic test of tlie boiler wonld pennit 100 pounds. 5o !""• the permitted pressure was the .^2. that the horse ]tower of liie enuiiic would be the same whether the itressure was 100 same size of engines. Q- — ^'<»>i do not examine for registry? A. — I do, yes. ^i- — !><>♦'" .vour office do the inspection for the purimses of British registry here? A.— 1 don't do it in A'ictoria, I do in outlying districts. Q. — They have a surveyor here who does the inspection for the purposes of registry, do they not? A.— Yes, sir. Q.— Comi>etent offlcial? A.— He is Mr. Walker. Q- — '^n "Sea Lion?" A. — »2 tons. Q. — How was she outfltt<'d? A. — She was outtiHed with five boats. Q.— Stern boat? A.— No. Q. — What was your crew? A. — 18 all told, including mj'- self. Q. — From what port did you sail? A. — I sailed first from Victoria to San Francisco, and there 1 fitted out and started sealing. Q. — Did you seal in Behring Sea? .\. — I did. ().— What time did you ei.ter the Sea? A.- -About the 10th or l.-Jth of July? Q.— What time did you leave the Sea? .\.— On the 14tli of September. Q. — What locality did you seal in? A. — Sealed to the west- 60 ward of the Islands. Q. — What was your catch in Behring Sea? \. — 718. Q. — What boat were you on in 1880? A.— I was (ui the "Minnie." Q.— And in 1888? A.— I was not sealing. Q. — Did vou, in 1880, keep a record of the catch of the "Minnie?" A.— I did. Q. — Have yoti got that record now? A. — No, 1 handed it over to Cai»tain Jacobsen. 50 I lO 20 30 1003 (TIu'o. Miipncscn — 1 Urcct— Cross.) Q.— How long ago? A.— So soon as wt- aiiived in Vic- toria, that would be in September, 1889. y.— What is The full name of Jacobsen? A.— Victor J ■lacobsen. Q. — Have yon seen the book since? A.— No, I haven't. Q.— Do you know where Jacobsen is now? A.— 1 can't tell. Q.— Has he spoken to you about it? A.— He did say he couldn't find i(, he didn't know where thev were gone to, he thinks he gave them to Kelyea, he says in" making up his claim, and he hasn't seen them since. Q— What time did you leave the Sea in 1881), captain? A. —On the 17th of August. Mr. Dickinson:— In the "Minnie," is that? Wilness:— In the "Minne." Q.— She was warned, was she not? A.— She was seized. Q.— When was that? A.— On the inth of July. Q- — -^''<' you going to be back here again, captain? A. — Yes, I will be back in three or four days. Q- — Will yon report here in three or fonr days? A. — I will, yes. The Commissioner on the part of the United States:— Where does the witness belong? Witness:— I live right here, sir, my family is right here. Mr. Peters:— Then you are not through with this witness yet? Mr. Dickinsofl :— We may call him in the case of the "Min- nie. Cross-examination by Mr. Peters: Q.— Captain Magnesen. you were in the "Sea Lion" in 1890 as master? A. — Yes, sir. Q.— Do you live in Victoria always? A.— Yes. sir. Q. — And you are going away this winter sealing? A. — 1 am going down the coast for three or four days. Q. — Just on a trip? A. — Yes. sir. Q- — Really nothing important at all, except you are going away for two or three days? A.— Just for two "or three davs. Q.— You were in the "Sea Lion" in 18f)(); have von a loff'of it? A —I did keep a log. Q.— Where is it? A.— Handed it over to f'aptain -Tacobsen at Vjctoriii. Q.— The "Sea Lion"— I want the log of the "Sea Lion?" A. — It is in my house. Q.— Did you keep a sealinu; book? .V.— I did. Q.— Did you enter the seals in youi- log? V.— I did not. ^Q.~And you destroyed your seal book? A.— I can't tell you. Q.— How long ago? A.— Several years ago, I think. Q- — Tell me just why you destroyed it? A. — I didn't think it was any good. 60 Q.— Did you make an entry of vour seals when rou came to Victoria? A.~I think I did. Q.— Did you come into Victoria with vonr seals? A —Yes Q.— The whole of them? A.— Yes. Q— AAVre they all canght in Behring Sea? A.— What I brought home, yes, sir. Q.— And how many did you bring home? A.— Well to the best of my knowh'dge I think it was 718. Q.— .\nd how many did you bring home? A.— Xone. 40 50 M T 20 1004 Thoo. MagiH'Si'U — flnms. (5. F. Ornnt — Direct.) Q. — Did .vou briiifj; lioiiie all you caught? A. — Certainly. Q. — And you cau);lit them all in Hehfing Sea? A. — ifes, sir. Q. — During what time? A. — Between the 12th of July and the 14th of September. Q. — You aw coming bacli liere in three or four days? A. —Yes. Q. — To be examined here again? A. — Yes. Q. — Will you be kind enough to bring your log? A. — Yes. Q. — How many seals did you catdi in September? A. — Quite a few. Q.— AVhat do you call quite a few? A.— Well, of that catcli of 7(»<» seals, I think I caught about lidO in Septemlwr. Q. — And when did vou leave the Sea in Septeml)er? A. — I left it on the 14th. Q. — So that from the first to tlie 14th you caught :?(•(» seals? A. — I think so, pretty near. Q. — And you did not luive very good hunters that year, did you? A. — No, I liad two green hunters. Q. — And the otliers were not vei-y old hunters, wei-e they? A. — Yes, one was. Q. — One was an old hunter? IIow many hunters iiad you altogether? A. — Five. Q. — Two were green; one was pretty old? A. — No. Q. — And the othei-s were middling, were they? A. — Yes, something like that. Q- — So that so far as hunt«'rs were concerned you were not 30 so well supplied as some of the otliers? A.— Notliing extra, no. Q- — You had five boats, you told us? A. — Yes, sir. Q-— Was there pretty good weather in Septemlu'r? A.— September was fine, the first i)art of September. Q.— In fact you did better work in Sei)tember tlian vou did In August? A.— Yes, I did nothing in August, nor in July either. It was too stormy. Q. — So that these i)"ople wlio tell us you cannot flsh in Sep- tember on account 01 tlie weather, they don't know anything 4° about it, do they. Captain? A.— Oh, no, you can get lots of seals in September. Q.— We will have your log? A.— All right, sir, I'll bring Q. — You can also take a look to see whether you are sure you destrojed the seal book? A. — Yes, I am certain, sure, I did. SO 60 Gordon F. Gi-ant was recalled as a witness on the part of Great Britain. Direct examination by Sir C. H. Tapper: Q. — You lieard the evidence of Mr. Thomson as to the boiler and engine of the three steamers, the "Grace," "Dol- phin" and "Anna Beck"? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — In respect to the opinion he gave as to the value, what difference would that be betwwn him and you? You heard the description of the boiler and engine of the different ships? A. — Yes, sir. Q. — About wliat valu(> would you place on the boiler and engine on the "Grace"? A. — I should say tluit the "Grace" would be worth about ^rj.BOft. Q.— And the "Dolphin"? A.— The "Dolphin" was the same class as the "Grace." (005 ((}. R 'Jiaiit— IMiict. Win. Tniiu'l— Diieit.) Q.— With the «'Xit'i»tion of tho boiler? A.— With the ex- teption of the boiler. Q.— One wan of steel and the other iron? A.— Yes. y.— What dilfeience wouhl that make? A.— There wonld iMMi little differ* nee in the value, „f ,.»nr8e. not a «reat deal, shmiui s '"* ^^'"'^ difference? A.— From »:{00 to fSOO 1 '° «'>fii;T''*io""' ""'* '""^ *''*' '^'■*'' ^""'•'''- A.- Would be fn.ni f JIHI to f30() more expensive. /i,"~^\'"'* ^'"'"'' ^^'°"'*^ •^■<^" l^"t •>" *J'e boiler and the enirine of the "Anna Heck?" A.-Oh, twent.v eight hundred tcrtC ii v'eJv f.: r 'r- ' V"'" ^'''- T'-n.pBon'H valuation wS jmlKl •'' ' '■ ■ "" *'"' ""*^"''' «'*'*'' ^ «''«"'<* 9~'^'"* t'vidence .voii have jjiven is independently of his opinion? A.-In8, saw her after she was launehed and rigged. Q- — What value would you put upon that vessel then when you saw her launched and rigged? A. — Well, taking it generally, what it eost nie to build mv schooner, I think she would be |H,000 or $n,()()0. Q.— That is without the steam? A.— I ain't speaking of the steam. Q- — Are you able to speak of her with steam as well? A. — Not at all, I am noi posted as to steam. 20 ii- — You prefer to speak of her simply as she was built and launched as a schooner? .\. — Yes. Q.— Did you see the "Orace" built? .\.— \o. Q- — l^id yon see her afti>r she was built? A. — I seen her in the harbour. Q. — There is not much dilfen-nce. is there, between the two? A. — I couldn't say, to compare the two together from mem- ory, I never worked on her. Q. — .\bout how often liave you seen her? A. — Passing throngh the habour and around the water front a good deal, I used to see h;>r quite often. Q. — Taking your opinion for wluit it is worth on that score, from wh.it 3011 saw of her, what would you say would be a fair value, what would be your opinion of her value as a sch<»ll>hii>'w euKine, in 1S83, was only one year old. Q.— (live ns the record of May 1st, 18S;{, to which you have referred. Mr. Dickinson :— That is what is not in the inspection of yesterday. Hir ('. H. Tupper:— Quite so. lUrect examination by Hir (J. FI. Tapper continued: Q.— IMease give us that i-ecord of May Ist, 188.'{, to which you have referred? A.— I may say that tlie particulars of tile engines in tliese old books are not very clearly kept; there were not items put down for that purpose except simply the size of the cylinders; tJiere are no specifications of the shaft, or boilers, the same as in tlie books of tlie preceding years. Q. — (live us that record with reference to the engine. A. — "Engine, one compound (condi'nsing); diameter of one cylin- der. 12 inches: of the other 6 1-2 inches; stroke, 12 inches." It goes from that to the tire engine. After giving the size of the cylinders there are no more particulars about the en- 30 pine at all. The only things relating to the engine are: Fire pump, steam pony pump, the pitch and diameter of the screw, and the revolutions of the engine. Q. — U'hiit was the capacity of that? A. — "Fire engine, one; six inches diameter on deck: diameter of pitch by pcrew, 4 feet in diameter, six feet six inclies pitch; revolutions of engine, 150."' That is all (he particulars of the enghie that are given; the rest is with reference to the boiler. (J. — Which of these vessels had certificates, under the act relating to the inspection of steamboats, permitting them to 40 cjii-ry passengers? A. — According to the record there were 50 deck passengers allowed for the "Dolphin " Q. — And which other was allowed to carry passengers? A. — T think the "Grace." The number of passengers allowed on thf> "Grace," "No state room," was 2.'i. The Commissioner on the part of Her Majesty: — That is in the latest survey? The Witness:— Yes, sir, in 188.5. Mr. Dickinson: — I have no cross-examination. Samuel McCulloch Smith was recalled as a witness on the part of Great Tlritain. Mr. I'eters: — With regard to this witness I desire his evi- dence in tlie "Caroleiia" case and subsequently to be trans- ferred to these cases, except where it is obviously inapplica- ble. Co Direct examination by Mr. Peters: Q.^Will you tell us what you had to do with the building of tlie "Dolphin?" A. — 1 was employed by Captain War- ren to superintend tjie building of her as master workman, and was on the work from the beginning of it to the comple- tion. Q. — When was that? A. — The beginning of the job was in 1881 and the finish in 1882, I think. ^^