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Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul cliche, il est filmd d partir de Tangle sup^rieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mithode. f errata d to It le pelure. pon d n 1 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 5 6 £_ Lv'n •( r^ ^, V / Lecture BY JOHN S. EWART, Q. C, ON THE IHanitoba School Qaestion IN THE Congregational Church, WINNIPEG. 29th April, 1895. MANITOBA -REE PR?S3 PRINT 3^^ I Lecture by John S. Ewart, Q. C, ON THE MANITOBA SCHOOL QUESTION — IN THE — C'ON(iKE(JATI()NAL CIIUHCII, WINMIMOii, '>i»tli APRIL, \H{)r>. Tlic following in the lecture deliver- ed l>y Mr. .r. S. Kwart in the CoiiKrf- gatlotial church on Monday eveninR, April L'yth, in reply to Uev. Mr. I'ed- ley: My first wryd upon this occnfilon must he one of thaiilis to Mr. I'edley and his con)irreK''»ti()n, for their almost unprecedented kiiidneHH in permitting me, from their platform, to maice re- ply to the pastor of their own church. If anyone had ever douhted Mr. I'ed- iey's honest endeavor af jcr Impartial- ity (and I do not thinl: that anyone did) my ajipearance here to-night will remove his doubt In the most satisfac- tory manner possible. No one can re- frain from adndratioii for the paliis- talilng and conscientious method In wliich Mr. I'edley approached the sub- ject. It Is one filled with difficulties. It is complicated by legal subtleties that have puzzled some of the ablest Judges In Canada; by questions of dis- puted facts: by problems of morality and religion, of tolerance and free- dom, of enlightenment and patriotism. Under these circumstances Mr. Fed- ley did not rush into the pulpit pray- ing God to send down enlightenment and ready-made wisdom; but getting his boolis around him he sat down pa- tiently to enlighten Idmself. .\nd I must congratulate him upon tlie re- sult of his labors, With one or two almost trifling exceptions he stated the material facts with almost com- plete exactness. With his reasoidngs and conclusions from those facts I entirely disagree; and I am here to- night to state why I do so, and to endeavor (with I hope as much fair- ness and moderation as he showed), to convince you that I am right. CHi'RCH CONTROL NOT WANTIOD. And first let me see what the trouble is all al)out. One reverend gentleman preached a most vigorous sermon against control of scliools l)y the Ro- man Catholic church. He abused the church and its manageu.ent in fine Reformation j»hraseology, and In ring- ing tone, whilst poor Rome sat on her seven liUls howling with pain and up atid down the spiiiy Apjtonlnes ran cold shivers and hot eartlKpiakes. Wlien I Informed him through the nev.spapers that nobody was contending for church control, he naively replied that If that were so there was no use in the serm ~I beg his pardon— the con- troversy. He should have said no use In the sermon. The Catholics tlien do not aslt for church control. If tlK\v did I would not be their advocato. I do not say that It would not l)e well done. In England their schools are well up to the standard. But I am democratic enough to want to see the i)eopie manage their own affairs. I believe it is good for the people, and in tlie long run good for their affairs. NATIONAL SCHOOLS. What then is the trouble all about? To understand the matter we must classify the different iiinds of schools. The broadest division 'of them is into National schools, and Church, or De- nomlnatlDiiMl schools. National a 'hnois are those governed by the nation. Cliurch schools are those governed by churches. Separate schools are nome- times national schools, and sometimes church schools, that Is, sometimes governed by the nation and sometimes governed by the churches. For our purposes these are the four Icinds of separate schools— two of them church schools, and two national schools. (1) Church schools pure and simple, with no assistance from government (St. John's college is nn example of this l£lnd); (2) church schools which comply with certain government require- ments, and In consideration of their secular worlf share in the government Krutil (the KiiKH^h dciiomlnatlonni KChoolH are examples of this elanH); (8) iiatiorifil neparate schools which are •Tfiverned and controlled directly by a departiiK'nt of the goveriiinent (such HH t)K> Ontario Hcparate schoolH); and (4) national Heparate schools which are Koverned and controlled indirect- ly l»y K"^'*^!*""""'*. that in, they are tfoverniMl through a lK)ard of educa- tion ajjpolntcd by K"vernment. It wan to tlilH claHH that )>oth the Pro- tentant and Catholic hcIiooIh in Mani- toba belonged prior to 181)0. They were national and separ/ite. It iH often asHiiined that if schools are to be called national they must Ik- all exactly alike {Scotchmen hJive a national coHtunie, but the tartans difcr. There may l»e national railwayH, but with different KuagCH suitable to locality. There are separate waiting rooms at rail- way stations, but they are all public. If all the HChoolH In Maidtoba were governed by the Hanie body, and were identlcall.v alike except that In some of them there were certain religious exerclHcs, and in otljers there were none, would one of these classes cease to l)e national ? If so, the act of 181)0 provides for schools which may at the discretion of the trustees not be na- tloual. If not, then the separate schools of Ontario to-day are national schools. I advocate then national schools, but I do not propose that they should all l»e of Trocrustean length, and th= peoples' consciences shall be loppe lengthened to suit the schools. 1 elleve that schools are made for the people, and not peo- ple for the schools, and that the sys- tem should 1m' so flexible (to iise Dr. Bryee's commendatory word), that all can take advantage of it. I advo- cate national schools and I oppose church schools. THE CONTROVERSY DEFINED. The most obvioua criticism of Mr. Pedley's licture is that he never defined the ocmtroversy. Let me endeavor to state the point clearly, for I have always found In conversation that when that was done almost all opposition ceased— that there was no use In the serm— I mean the controversy. Let us see what is admitted l)etween Mr. Pedley and me. In the first plact we admit that there must be religious teaching In the schools. That I may not do Mr. Pedley wrong I shall quote his words: "Is it the business of the state to provide religious teaching? '• tlv.' ■• ^ '••:f viith this qualification that this be done without partiality or Injustice." We may judge of the extent to which re- ligion ought to Ite taught, l>7 Mr. Pid- ley's contention that "It ia the busi- ness of the state to provide moral training. But moral traititng will l)e ineffective unless supported by the sentiments and sanctions of religion." Therefore he says religion must be taught; and therefore religious "senti- ments and sanctions" must l>e taught. He concludes his paragraph In this way: "What then Is the duty of the state? First to teach religion in so far as it can do that wltliout violat- ing the fundamental principles of re- ligion; and second to extend all hospi- tality and encouragement consistent with justice to the agencies whose business it is to teach religion,"— not excluding, I suppose, the Catholic church. To my mind It is not far from this to separate schools. I am quite aware that this may be thought by many here to be a!i unsat- isfactory point from which to start the debate, and many may think that Mr. i'edley has admitted too much— that purely secular schools are the only remedy for the religious (juestion. And I (|ulte admit that It is harder to answer such persons, altlioiigh it can l)e done, and done satisfactorily. But I think that there Is no difficulty whatever in answering Mr, I'edley, and those who take the stand that he does; and it is for that [(urpose that I am here to-night. RESUME. Let ,U8 see how far we have got: (1) The schools are not to be utider church control; and (2) there must be teaching In them of religious "senti- ments and sanctions." Is there any- thing else we can agree al>out? Ves. We can )igree (H) that all scliO(j|8 are to work up to the same secular stand- ard; (4) that the teachers in al! '.he schools shall pass the same examina- tions and be certificated in the same way.nl becauei' of ihc same quaiiil a- tions; (;")) that all schools shall use the same books, with this almost unneces- sary proviso that there shall be noth- ing In them offensive to any religious body; (d) that all schools shall be sub- ject to state inspection; (7) and that by these, or other means which can be devised, the education of all the child- ren In Manitoba shall be as general, and as efficient as it is possible to make it. Now, am I right as to this? Let me see. As counsel for the Roman Catholic minority in this province, and with their authority, in addressing His Excellency the Governor-General- In-Council, I said, and I repeat It here to-night: "They do not ask that their church should In any way con- trol the schools. They are perfectly willing to 'wnrk up to any ►tate prc«crlbi'd standard of netular instruction, to Ik' Hul)Jtct«d to itiHpectioii, and to \}se erhooi hoolcs not at variance with tlieir rcilKiouH doctrineh." I put it to thiH audience ir that Ih not reaHonaltie. eatiioliCH 4irt' jwrfcctiy , willing to be liound by, and arc anxiouH to co-operate In, every iirrangenient nece**Hary for tlie hecu- lor, and U thought w, U.the Ci mpul ory education of all the ciiildren in Mani- tolui. Tin: ( O.NTliOVKRSY. Then wliat in tlie light all about? Well, from a i'rotCHtant utandpoint it in al>out almost nothing at all— it l8 little more than thih: TirHt: Cifven that tliere ouglit to be religion in the HClioolH land answering Mr. I'edley I assume that point), ought the I'ro- tesiants or the Catholics to iiave he right to prescrilH' its liitid and itn ♦luaiitlty, in schools wlikh none but Catholics attend? ; atul second if this 1k' decided in favor of tlie Catho- lics, ought I'rotestants to etuleavor to force ( atholics to attend scliools at which I'rotestant children may also l>e present, in order that I'rotestantH may thus acipiire a standing ground from which to dictate the kind and (piantity of religion the (atholics are to have? NO auki:i:mi:nt in iti lh-iox i os- SIBLE. The trouble is tliat same old diffi- culty of getting people to agree al)out religion. The I'rotestants (so far as rei»resented by Mr. I'edley), agree tli.'it tliere ought to be religion ( "the sentiments ami sanction" of it), in the schools, ;ind they cut off a portion, and say: This mudi ought to be satis- factory to everybody. The Catholics on the other hand say: It is not satis- factory to us. Would anyone think that there could be agreement upon such a question? One would have thoiight that after all th'e centuries of ef- fort to lUJike people agree upon the most trifling points in re- ligion tliat it would long ago have l»een giv«'h up as wholly impracticaitle. But ijo, liere it is agjiin. Mr. i'edley ►ays: "Here is some religion that everybody ouglit to agree to," and here is the eternal answer, that they won't. One of the l)est known efforts to get everybody to agree was the Kiigiish church service. In the preface we find the following account of itself: "It is more profitable, because here are left out many things, whereof some are untrue, some uncertain, some vain and superstitious; and nothing is ordained to l»e read but th« very pure wor«i of (!od, the Holy Scripturew, or that which Is agreeable to the same; and tliat in sucli a language, and ord«'r, aM is mont easy and plain for tlie uiulerstanding, botli of tlie readers ami hearers. It is also more com- modioiih, b(»th for tlie HhortriesH there- of aial for tlie plainness of the order, : u ! fir that the rul(« be few a ad envy. And whereas lieretofore there hath been grejit diversity in saying and singing in churches within this realm . . . now from lienceforth all the whole realm shall have but iKit, [>y <-()iiriNrjitin>; .ill tlieir hClioolN, furniture, ii|ipurutuH, money (iritl Jill n><>, at Ir.iHt loixc hiniSfH ojUMi to tlio <|ii»'stlon : "l'«'riiii|>H you (Jill rlj^iit to dlsHcuildt' your lo\o. Ittit wlO "li'i .v'>" •*••■•< "^ tiown HtiilrH?* Mr I't'dley would lia\«^ \i^ st-nd the bill to OtlflU.'l ^0 h»' trllH UH ! Hu we n«'«'d not >;o back to the Tudors ;ind Stu.'irtw ;or cxamplca of tlic stiflnosH tlous \ !••«»,. -ind tln' tcndiTPrsH of coiiHricnoo In w'lat to others Neoin to be Huxill ni.'itterH. .\t a stt)iie s tiirow iroin this cliuri h I e.fi. throu others on to Knox ihurch. Wesirninsier ujiureh, (Ir/ice ehiirrhand tne K.'iptlst eliureh, and Hond a golf b.ii. to Holy Trinity. (an half .1 dozer people in this audlen<'e tell me tlie difference in doctilnn lietueen n «T(iiKr( Rationalist, a Methodist, a rresl>yterlan, nn lOplscopalian, and (with a ponselonce clause permitting 1 o.-ipoiimeiit I .1 r^W'tlst? \Vhatke tree from chureh control. That I think, Is all lh.it the state can re- quire of UH, and ought to be a suf- llclenl answer to siiggiBtlonrt of In- < filcleiuy and llllter.icy; and In return we ask that in schoolH in widcli tliere are w ne but Koin.in Cath<>ii< s, tlii> religious 'sentimintH and satietioiis" to l)e taught, sli.'ill lie such as we chose, and not those srlected by otliers, however free from theological prejudice. Is lliis reiiHon:ible or Is It not '.' To toKt It let me. answer some of the obJectioiiH made to It. i'i:i:sf:.\T ui'.LKiinx i\ tiii: SCHOOLS. First ol Jectioii— There Is notliing in i\) the religious exercist 8 or '2) in- struction which have been pieserlled that Catholics can reasonalily find lault with. There is the old tiouH-, one njan tolling another what he would think il lie were only lea^on- al)le. To my ndnd If the I'lotestmt denonilnatlons were only rcasonalile they Would unite. But they wont, and what can I do? Legislate for them, UH thou^ih they ought to, .'ud pass an act of uniformity, with a magnificent ide'il of one use through- out the whole realm ; or recognize the fact that they differ and have a per- ect rljiht to, if it jil ases tin m. of If they are built that way? Let us see Jiow the privy council met this ])o;nt, for the s;ime thing was ar- gueii b foH' them. Their Lordships said: "There may be many too who sh.ire the view expressed Iti one of the affidavits in Harrc:"s ca8(\ that there >liould not l>e any conscientious objec- tions on the part of Roman Catliolics to attend mieh schools, if adeipinte mean- b' provided elsewhere of giving .-ucli moral and religious training as m.iy 1)e desired. Bat all this is not to the jiuipose. As a matter of fact the objections of I{f)man Catholics to school such as alone receive state aid under the act of IS'.JO Is conscientious and deeply rooted." Kuring the argumrnt one good Irish judge said of Pr. Bryce who made the affidavit: "This gentleman gives it as his individual opinion that tlie Catholic religiom ought to be Something •. ntirely ('.Iffeient from w hat it is." Ought I to have to go any further upon tills point. In a British colony and speak ng to law abiding Cat a- dians, ai-e we not too well accustom- ed to submitting our personal opinions to the final arbitrament of courts of law, too well accastomed to recognize that for disputes, constitutional as well as private, there must be some method of peaceful solution, to tnake It necessary for me to prove tliat till- jmlwiiUMit iif til' i»iiv.v coiiiwll Is t'Mne«t'.' It i< uiim cffHiiry. ami yet that the ('athnal»lt', a>i wi'Il ah !«• gal 1 ^liall inirNiic tli«' Milijcct Ik little furthiT. RKLKIIOIS i:XEKCISi;8. Whai tiien 1m tlicrt' la the rollKtoun exerciKeH (firsti that wo object to? Nothing;; liut stippost? I eoiniilala of m.v iioitkIko, that there l-i iin nalt lii it, oiiKhi 1 to lie roughly put ilowii with tMC Htatenieiit tiiat there wan (lOthiDK in It that I olijecteil to? Lei lue apply thl-i lui'thoil of reasou- itig tu the i'rotefitants uad Kue li t! «il! follow It. In thf nrnv.-»r prescrll>e(l for the kcIiooIh I liaM thOHe wordH, "For the sake f>l Jesus ('hrlHt, thy Son, our l.o;il. ' Nou iipo i th<' prlneiple that the ^cllools should ho (as Mr. I'edley contetnis) non-seetar- Inn and lor .tew and (ientlle .ilike, those words oimht to l>e Btruck out of the prayer, lor ao .lew wouli u-e them, nor woiM any I altaiian. But if the words were ellaiinated no Prot- estant A\ouhl use the prayer. I then lul^ht say to hUa, >Vliat etween I'rot- estant nnci Catholic would at once •^ay so and not l>ecau8e of anything In them rnit because of what Is lert out. UIXKilOlJ.S IXSTUUCTK >N. Then as to the Instruction prescrib- ed we ohj 'Ct not only to Its (luantity out to its quality, when in tlie hands of Protestant teachers. Th" regu- lations say ; 'To eslab'.i-h tlie hatiit of right doing, instruction In moral principles must be accomp.inied by training In moral jiractices. The teachers lnliutnce an 1 txanijdt', cur- rent Incidents, storli'S, memory gems, B 'ntiments in the schiol lesson ex im - nation of motives that prompt t) ac- tion, didactic talks, teaching the ten Commandments, etc., are m -ans to be employed." Am I wrong in say- ing that that programme sounds very ilk" one for a Sunday school ? And are Catholics unrcasonalile In saying that In the hands of Protestant teachers the flavor of the memory gems, didactic talks, etc., would be Protestant ? It could not possibly be otherwise 1 defy any Presbyterian for instance who believes his catech- Ism to conBCientlously teach the t"n commandments without coming i;: di- rect conflict with Itoni III ('.itlioUe (V>etriae. And li we are to aHMvaie that the te.icherH are nnn-Hecta.'ian t< lo gentienn-n without tlieolngiciil jirejudlces — what re.iHon is In- tti give til the children why the ProtestantH divide the t'at liolics' lirst coiumiiid- m nt Into two. m ikimr \\\< liy adding thiir ninth and tetitli toLfi'thiT? When In- is teactiiiig tlie Protestants' sec- I'lid coniaian liiient is li>> to state that It In .•! speel.il ciiiMmandment alm-d ;tt liMiiriii t'athiillc iinatrcs anil relics? or is lie to explain, ''Tlinii sh ilt not in.ik" unto th-e any graven image," as the Cathiilics explaia that Ian- liuige? And wii n h" inmes to the Prut est.ants' fourth eoianiandm<'nt en- J liidiig tlie keeping o: Snnilay 'it is the CatliMlie tliird), sliill he inculcate Protestant or Catliolic lieliei as to the lawfulness of recie itlon, and Works o: lilcral, and artlsiic, char- acter? Let I'mtestants tell me that they are willlai; to have their children tauglit the Ten t'nmniind- •^ent^ liy Kom m dthnilcy. an I I shall then, but nut till tli' n. ack'io wledge that the pri sent schools are uas 'C- tariaii. I pray ,Mr. Pedley, l.. ni ike a note of this for his rejily. i have with me the Prt'sbytdr- i in U'ld the Roman Catholic, metlioeciind is 'the niakug of any rejires- entitioTi of (Jod. f)f ail, o:- any, ofthe thro • persniis, either inwardly In our mind, nr outwardly ia any kind of im- age or IkcTiess of any creature what- soever; al w ()rshi|ipiiig of it, or God In it or liy It,' etc; one of the sins for- bidden by the tjiird is "the maintain- ing of f:il~«' doctrines," etc.; o:ie of the sins pridiiliited by the fourth !< "all profaning the day by . . . recrea- tions;'' .ind so on. Does atiy one tell mo that this is not sectarian, or that it is p<)ssil)Ie for a Presbyterian be- lieving that the.se (ire sins, and that they are p;-oh:b;t>ed by the teo(Miilc I l*il 1 Im'II"'"' < ,tli<'|C' havi- line view NATloN.M, IMTY S.TMiiil nlij clloii— 'I'h.it 1 I- n c «• •in I rri't^>t;intH vailiHi-' otlpT'^.WIlb- mirjt tn tin* iiplniliiUntf '> n.-iiionnl lilt aril Jin'parcil ti ha,v, afior ararofnl t h • smih • HdmolH. I« it ? Th n how htiKly 111 tin- i|iH'hti(ni that It 1- iMit (Mill H It til it i:n-M iml ln-:la.v l-proli- within tlie wit of mtn to tl'Vl-r a ali.y tli • hlifh^nt typi' "f n illniial nieiii- i>f ci'-nliu-at o I li re IkI'»ii imliv nri Ih" f icr of th" fartliV l>lit w Jil'h hhal Ik* t*atl-fact»oy8 In- havi' It'i-n Nh'iwimf that i'ro- ^,, ,j, . nam' nioiiltl, anl turnliii: thi-ui ti'-tan H aiid ( atlioiM-. cm o*. a-tr-i' ,,,,j ,.xartly allk»', Ih tlu' nio- provlli'd liy th • .-. atr. \c- i-or.llnu' to hh vi 'W. ;inil Itoni m < iith- olic view, tnc follnllatlon^^ of inorality — tlip rellnfoiis ".-ciitliii»ntH tin I Han«'- tlons'' of tt must h.' taiit;ht. Now Mr. reilloy I hive Ji coaiinilruin for yon. Mor'Hty h iwised upon relljfloa, i>ut upoa what ri'I Klon '.' I> It u)>o 1 the ("hil ■ tl.iii rcllfflon? Thin It i> tho Chris, tint! rcllffion that must l»o taught In tlic srhoolH, is It not? Anl then what hecotnen of ilio .Ic^vs jiml I'tiitarlans? and what of out Imasteil noti-scctar- i.Mii schools- B iiool- opei to i'\cvy on \ .ami jirovlillnt; for t very one, Jew and (len !<" allk"? \n I .mo h r wne.e they like): tint If no, on how miicli of it, and what parts of It, ;in 1 what arc the essentials of it? Does Mr. Pedley re.ally i)ropose that everybody i-, un 1(T j)'n.alty of p lylair I'o • two sets of schools, to h.MVi' to .auri-f iijio:! thesi points? I hen thnt he will not in reply say : Surely TrotestantB and Catholics ran af?roe upon the l)rO'id fundamentals of ri'iijiflon. I say la ad- vance wlifle broadly they do agree, partieulncty (and you must te.ich that way) they do not that if you are ao- inp: to teach religion you do not teach it in a lump, but speciilcally, and that tliere is no po^-Blhl'ity of agreement. I make the audience thi-i offer : I..et as many as like write down spenifl-nlly the religious eontl- ments fin't r.digious sanctions whl ii they think are tlie foundations of nu rnlit.T .\Mer Mr i'.wl'oi-'i r"n V we shall see, If any one in this audi- ence agree-! with Idin. If any sluule Indlvfdual does agree with iiltn I will pay $2'> to the Children's Home. n the prlnilplf of diversity gr''ss o than of similarity, a over, thoMsan I tlm n The priiielpli" of slml arlty l-* Ineljil f Iti- Iri inanv ri'sp '(ts th ' p I'U' tMirr.inee .-md H'aguatlon, wliereas th' prliiciiili' of iiidividiial liberty It th- iirliiclpl" of gnod fellowshl|) tmd progress. Thl- objctlon Is sometlines put in this way ; Tint la commf)n miiools ehlldi-en' fif different denominations wH 1 'arn to know and ri-sp -ct en'di ,,t], .r_c(.;iH' to hivf theo'ou'l "a! pre- judlres, I supp )8e. I do not think so. If we ;ire to get rid (d theologle.il pre- juilici's we n-ed not commence at the HcU lois, for there are none there. It Is, I .am Korry to Biy, at the pulpits ♦ hat we mu«t w-irk— the pulplte of I'r >testant .and CathoUi alike— nt >< inv more, at som • less, at this one P'lhip- very little, but still t. some ext-nt. If th • I'rotestan* and Ca'h- oll' pididtH resp'Cted v.ach other, so f.r.is tliey resp ctlvely deserved, tlie eougregJitions wordd not If behind. Th'' antiigoninm is, to my mind, largely professional, for in busin 'sH .ml socl il Intercourse we km iw nothlnu: of it, we never hear of It. I.,"t me give you an example. .\ sill .rt time atro the Methodist min- ister.- of this city p.issed the follow- \:\ix resolution .-ind directed It to b' .sent to everv Methodist minister wltli .•I r>' JcHiiltH' oatntPM (|U0Htl<>n." (ftjCd.i (ieu. 1{ .Turk, priwidwnt; F. 8, i'h'Vh'T. M«cr««t-<. I tr.iikf iio rlinrK*' of \tn*\ faltli ngaitiMt thi'M*' MctliotliNtH. It \h tilt- pulpit I Hay tiint \\«' iniint work at if we aro to rid (nii><»lvi'n of hr'<'t.'irlan Intolor- an<'e I'.ltluT I'rotexUintH and Catho- li('t» oujtiil not to nvpfot oaoli otlior t\u*\ in Hncli (>MH)>H tlirri' Ih ijii whv cm- «le.ivorln(f nfU'r It; or if tlioy otifjlit, tlicji and j»rl»»HtB. to lirliij? It about. KKl'KrTIVi: !:i»l CATION. TliliMi idiJiTtion. Tin- t'opjiratP uPliool Ky^trni r«'BHlts in dt-fcctlvf oducatinn, FIl'W thiK can Ix' If all tlu' hcIiooIh aro aiik ■, txcrp* til • rt'liirlous Htudlo-i. I cannot sof. To ]>rovo it Kiiropfati Kta- tintlcH art- a|ip alod to. TIum-c is noth- Intr ). l«'t mo Kivp you tioineothprH t :ik '-' -. •J 9t a - r Country. s i *s ?. Hwit/orlanrl l.asi.KKi 1 .i77,7fX) 1.W Oonaiin Kmplrc U.Sfi7,.)iMi 25.(K«),7()(i l,-,2 I Norwiiy :».Mi 1,7o|,K(Ki |.3« Swfidmi (! Franci- H'l :«.S.fH filO.WO LSI n(!l«iii:n t.lWiOOO 1.-).UKi 123 Ansfria 2'.U*i.^») 3.,57l.f)»Ht 100 Oroit Urilain . . ")..V)0.i)(H) 2a,9(JO,o(ni S3 Spain \C,Mn\.m) 82 Italy 2(!.7.'>0.(HNI :i5,(H)0 7" Rut nil thPRO HtntistiOH provp nntli- ttijjT to u>. The ptlitiolojrioal diffcrenceH of tlie jH'opip must ln' taken into ac- count: !rnd tlilH fact/ alHo tliat tlie flf?- tirt'8 of a f .'W years aifo would he very dlfer.nt. lln-JTlind Is doing very well now, Itut prior to 1870 lier st.aiulinK wuK dep|f)rable. Italy'H spurt came a few yearH later, but a.s you may see from tho report of the T'ldtod States conwaiHKioners of education of 18^8-0, p. xlv.; "In no htate of I^urope lias more stroniious efforts been made to p ovi ie for educitloli liy Pub'l • .■•cho "l-". The expenditure for \8^i) amounted to $'J(»,0(>0,()()0. of wliich tiie nntioii- al frovernment furniHlied nearly one- third. Over 10 per cent, of the en- tire population are enrolled in scliooly." Italy was one of Mr. Ped- iey's horrible examplesi 8tatlrttlci< are aino quoted from our own province. It in Hald lliat only 25 per cent, of tiie Frencli lialfbreedx can read or write. I am uHHiired tirtt It l>4 niiicji t^reater than tliat, luit am MirprlHed tr) liear that it Ih ho tcreat. Dr. Ilryce Ihih compareil tlie rrench liaifi>reedM to wild muHtatiKH, and tliP DnKllMh to the patient roadHtern; and he Ih rlicht. Tlie motlier tongue of many of tliose <"alled I'rencli |h ( ree, and their habitH until re<'ent yearn lune lN>en thone of the roving liutiter anil V(iyane\ir. Why tlien charge their Illiteracy to the Catholic ♦tchoulHV Why not an well charife It to the I'rotcHtatit HchooiH? of thin Jo per cent, of literatcH how many tiwe their education to othern than (athuilcH'.' Credit tlie CatliolicH, I ^ay, witli L'.'i ]ter cent. Do not del>it tiiem with 7r> pri cent, lie fair. I>« it not aliHurd alno (even were. ( atlio- iics reHpdiiHlhle), to ank the hame re- HUits from wild muHtativ:s as from |ia- tU'iu roiidHteiH '.' Ill till' I idt( d state-* edu atlonal census t liere 1-. a sep.irate column fur civill/ed lnest meanH of ascer- tal!;iii|ff whether the s pirate h liuo' ^'yHtem Ih InjuriouB, Is to ascertain liow It works in Ontario. Tliere the supporters of liotli hcIiooIs are much the same, and the conditions are Identical. How jIoch it operate tliere? .\r>' til" suiiporters of sep.irate scliooiH theri- llllteiate? If you will turn to the Canadian ■ t'ltintlCM. year Ivtok lor lis'.«4. at pngr R."1, yon will find this state- m nt : '"Th • .iverij!:!' attendanrtv at th' s'pir.'ite sclmols was btter than nt tfie |ni?»lic schools, belnj? .'7 per cent of tho total numl>er of pupils; while the nverapre cost per pupl l)oth on total attendance, and on average attendance, was less than the pul)llc schools." I commend tiiis as a text for thf Methodist sermons In substitu- tion for trieir bad-fact resolitlon. Fourth oi'Ji'ction— The fibjict'on of defective education Is better pit by Mr. Pedley when he says that the sei)nrate scliool system is injuidous in cases where the population is sparce and mixed, so tliat there are not enough of either Protestants or Cath- olics to make two good sc'aools. This is a valid objection and must be met. First let ufi see the extent of the dif- ficulty. Dr. Hrycp liaa said "Out of 71',» sdiDol districts in Manitoba wheti the ,i('t of 18',tO was pasned 11)1 wore Catholic. Of tlie^^e (all but a very sm.il VercentagCf are In localjties al- most entirely French." This small perer of schools in cities and 10 tdwriw wUi'n- tjiftic (ir«i cmoiiKli I'rotftH- tiiTitH niu\ C/iWinlifiH to fofin two of- llflfeiit k-Ikx.Ih. Ho \vh«ni wo look at the fjictM lh<- oltJ'CtUni /ilinoHt «iMtlrcly vjnilKlK'H. Tor the f<'w rniuiLnltiK ^--ukih r woiilfl nay tliat tlio wyHUMii Hi forf,« iti tli« c(inv«'iit Hchool III thlH city would juLiwer tlM' <»r/J(<',tloti. In tlwit Hr.holiKiiinK a, whole HyH- t«'ai, Hiat th< r<' are a few eaneH in u h.l« h I ]"'•'' 'I arrantfeinentH oii^ht to \ni iinade. KQl AI. UKilfTH lOR MAj. I'Mfth ohjietlon— Why Hhoiild CaHi- oIlcH have rljjfhtH not enjoyed by otherH? i have never eon- tended that they HJioiild, ;ind will never do m>. My \t\nn Ii.ih alw/iyH heea to allow liberty to every one, kv> far /IK /it all prael halile. TIm re /ire three eI/iKCv« ,'! erty to withdr/iw, r'\erybody in ••./! ttHfi'iMl; e\(rryliod,v, /in l/ir ;\h pr/ie- ti'(('!e. h/iH hlH w/iy, and no one haH /,r..< sj.i ?af prIvllejifOH, .i i" /im told th/it th(^ dlstlnetlvft pnaelp'eH of Con^rf^t^/itlon/illHrn, I'reH- iiyterlfiJilHin, ete., /ir<^ not t/iii>?ht, I (iiiHwer tfi/it tlior/? Ih nf» dlHtlnetive principle In thf)He [tortlonn of their re- ligion upon whleh mor/illty Ih founded. There Ik no dlHtlnctlon In /iriy jwirt of thcli rell>robably think that Mr. Pedley xav(^ nway )iIk whole c/iKC when he Jidmitted that It w(iH "the ItiMlnoBH of the Ht/ite to i>ro- v!''*^ re IkIouh te/iehln^." I think ho too, !Mit I do not require IiIh /idrnlK- Klon. I hnv«! never contended that Hiieh Ih tli;- ImihIiH'Hh ot the ntate. All that I h/ive ever iirj^ed Ih th/it thft Kt/ite HJifnild rif)t Interfere to prevent It. Our wh'xdH /ire uiamiK''*! hy Hcliool triiHteeH. Now If the Hchord truHtecH were not Drohtltlte*!, nn they are by Htatute, from te/iehlnj< tlio rliildren tlM- relltrlon of the denomina- tion to which they /ill behmif, much that I contend for woidroee<'d to prov/- th;it, I, by reference to N'«hv nriiiiH- wlr-k and .N'ova Scotia; li. I>y Uie ac- tion of tlie (irecnway ^fovernment; /irid ,"., by Mr. Dalton " McCarthy. 1. In New ('{nniHwlck and Novm Sco- tia tlicre nri- \>y l;i w no Kcparate hcIiooIh. Nevert iielcHH tiiey are thr-re In full oj)erat,lon jih a matter of pr.'ic- t|c(>. In the riir.'il .?o to the otlK-r. .\r)\\ thlH Ih done l»y tiie con- Hcrit of everybody, andin found to be Kiicli /I Htii.ll ;ni;itter th.'it no oii« tliildper ar- r/iri>fem<'nt, /irid Hometlmen /i ncceH- K/iry one, when the ehlidren /ire of mixed reilj^loiiH; but when they t\re all Catliollc, I can nee no necoHHlty for f II It, »)ut, on th«' coritrJiry, hciiic uhc- ICKH aiiiKiV.'iiicc, niu\ pdHHllili' [)li.VHlr)il Injury uT the r-lilldnMi. TIkmi wIwiIIh tin- «'fl(c,t or tli«-H«! nrranncmcntH'.' Wliy prnrtlcallv Hi.'it wlillf Hi-par.it*; BPlioolH art' »ih«fHH}rf'«l l)y I'lw tlioy an- Hia up aK»l" ''.V K<'"«'r'il ••on- Mt.-nt. Ih not that a Hinall inattc^r"' :! Now wjiat Ih tlio auHWcr to what I h.ivf Haiy Mr. DaltonMr- ( artliy In thr- rvf*i\l flcbati! In Ot- tawa. n«' HJiUl : "In Ui«f Drovlncc* tJial ar<' fr<'<- w<» ar*- told, an«l It Ih tli<; lM--t |^<)H^ll>^' ar>cuiin KKally cl.MlnKMl, tiiat, to a(loi>t th«' ia!iKuaK<> of my IfariKMl fiH-nd, w«! wink nt in- fraftionM of tli« puhlic KChool law. ho thit it, alinoHt iH'ConKW a K'.parat*' sclior.i hyhtcni. Ami tlify r with hucIi a noverninint as we may have from time to ■tlm«',w« are not kiuo tiiat the wlnkinj? will Ik! carried on as ntead llv an hefore." Or I mlirht adopt Sir r'harle.M llil)hert 'I'upper'n rcMuark to me: "I suppoH»> tli.it uliat. yoii an- afrai"! of Ih that it may he a Io/ik time l)etweeTi wliikH." Tin: IMON (O.MI'A<'T. In IHd'.t Cinada dfhired t'l acpdrf; Kupert'H Land; and the lnlia.MtantH there, havlnn: indhated that tiny Would like to »»•• advlKid ol the pro- l»owd methodH of government, <:an ada Hcnt to them thn-'- commlt-Hhui ers. At fhilr liiHtanci- a maHs lie et |n« wa« held at I'ort 'iarry on t In- I'Mh of January, 1H70. It wan held In the open air, aHlMuiuh the th"r- mometer Htood at 20 hi-lovv aero, he- cause of the iiumherH jireBent. It waH there unanlniouHly renolved il; that forty rejireKentatlveH uhoiild he elect- ed, with the (dijict of ('oiiKideririK tlie HuhJ(-ct of .Mr. SmIlh'H couimiUMlon, and to deride what would he hcHt for the welfare of tin- country ; and i2j that a coiiinilttee i-oni-lMtliii? o( Thoi. liunn, the Kt-v. J. Itlaik, the ItlHhop) of Ku|)ert'H hand, John Sutherland, and Ji.hn I"rai-er, le appointed to III' el and apportion the CnKMnh re- prr-MMitativeH for the different par- Uhew, la the Hi-ltlement, .ind to de- terndiie the mode of ejection." The epctlonH were held, and on the 'Jtlth Janu.iry the convention met for hu^lii«-t-H. lyord I)uffi-rln '■ays tliat It "wan i-oiiijtOHcd of /i niimher of l'"reiieh and Jin^d-h delej^aten fairly eleetcd from the pojiulatloa at lar^e; that perHoiiH of very jfreat rcHpect- ahl Ity were iiiernherH of it and tr)ok part in ItH |)roeeedliiKH." AmoiiKHt a lot of hu'-inek^H tran-a<-ted the follow- ItiK reKolutlr)!!, moved hy .Mr. I'raHcr and seconded hy .Mr. (iiinn (iK)th lOnn- i|sh repfi K' ni nt Ivf H> was earrled with- out a dlKKentliiK voice; "That the committee pi-evlouKly Mpi)olntevlHlona I ko\- ernment ne^^otlated a harK'iIn uith Can/ula, and that haiKiln was em- hodled, or Intended ho to he, In the .Manltoha Act. They had a rl^ht to do all thiH, /md further the Im[)eria1 authorltlcH reipilreil that (an.nla hlmuld make teriiiH HatlHfactory to the (-(ittlern lioforri the union wiih coiiMim- iiated. Of the harj^aln made Mr. I'e»I- ley HayH tliat : "No douht the French Catholic population of the country nn- derHtood tliat In IH70 the liomiidon Kiiaranteod them hcparate Hchoolg. Tliey feed that faith with them haH not liften kept." What docH Mr. I'ed- ley admit I. That the KcttlerH were quite right In organlzInK; L', Tliat they werft yulte right In making a bargain; and .'I. that jmrt of the har- 12 gain waH Hoparate bcIiooIh, or at least thiit tlio French CathollCH ho uiuier- Htood It, Tlmt hiirK'tiii huvitiK hmm brokcu Mr. I'edlev naively Hays : "They ievl tlmt fnltli with thnm has not heen k«pt." Well, I for one do not wonder that they have Hoin« no- tion (>r th.'ic Kort. I Hhoidd think that the rnoHt Illiterate ol them could see that, even If there are Honie scores of T'rotcHtnnt ndnlsters who can not. IJiit Ice nje he quite fair to Mr. l>ed- ley. What reanonH does he give for dlsregar; lo Mr. I'edley a qiieHtlon. At confedcr.'itlon It was agreed that the F)rovinc»' ol f^iiebc' shonM b' limited In Its powepH to rf-;irra,nij;e Hh own constltuemdCH (;i very local matter one would thinki tliat tliere should re- main twelve llnKli^li eon'^tltuenopulatlon of at le.iHt a million." Softly a little. No one argucM for a final moaHurement in Averything O'H for tins onlv. in • matter relattive to rollgloiw liellef: Out of the 1LV>00 oaie hilf Avcre JProte-tantH and the otlii'r h.'iir Iloman CatholiCH. No one knew which wuh going to be in the niJijorlty In yeiars to come, if I'rote.st;intH, tlien the ("athoIicH de- Hlrod proteetion for Mie nchools, and if CatlKdlcs (an was< then thought moHt likely) then I'rotcstantH desired protection. What was fair under the c;ir(;uniMtanceM woh doiko, and It was agreed that whicliever party should constitute the future minority It Hhould lie protewiteil. Pate has jjlven to t'he I'rote^tantH the nuijority and tlje UHc they make; of their power is to break ,the agreement, which, had they l)een In the minority, they would have loudly claimed the l)«nefit of. To my mind tJuit Is nearly as bad UK Mt. FranoolH Xavier. "'No doubt the Fn-ncii (.'atholic pop)ilatlon ol thl-s country un«lerHt()od tlmt In 1870 the Dominion giuiranteed them wep- arate Hchoken. Ah a Can- adian and a. mini-ster of the gonpel, 1 mu-t ileplore .mII deviations from mor- fillty, inchided lu wlileh are all brcMChes of agreements, and I think thit as that linn liappemeel in this c.iHe there ought to be Home conipen- HMthm; but as a Manltoban I say that we (lid right 1ji bre.iklng the bargain, nnd am glad that there wan a loop- hole through which to crawl. With nil re.sp-'ct for Mr. I'edley I have no symp.'itliy wh«,tev<'r with hucIi hair- Hplittlng,' or rather mjin-Hplltting, sub- tleticH. They a,r- versy otlK'r ^han one between I'ro- teHtfint and C;itholi'', In which. Htruu- gle .'iH he amy, liiis memtal vision Ih dulled. Mr. I'edley i« i\ man I l>elieve of the very highest honor, and It Ih to me Himply amazing that he can Im* ho l)llnde(l nn to make t.lw; dlHtinc- tbm nimn a point of agreement and mor.'illty, between himself an a Caim- dlnn, and himself an a Maidtoban, In order thnt as n M;initoban he may do that, for which an a Caiindlnn he is willing to pay damages. Morality to my mind I- the Hnme for a ManltOiban 13 jiH for a ('Hnadiun, ntid jiK'-e(vmont« ouKlit to hLnd both alike. Mr Pedley remindM in • of tlie qimrrol iKitween two ownoFH of an clephnnt, r<'- Nultin^ in Olio of tliom HJ^ofitliiK Ids h;ilf, with the ri'inark that hh jwirt rier roiild dii with IHh Hluire nH It ph'iiH- cmI hliii. To l|Kt<'ii t4» Mr. I'<'h- Hlhle, hut (iiilt«> rlffht, at thn namf timft, to ff(ir phiins for hreaki-ng tho ajfPrionn'iit, niia .\rt. Tin* Act HjM'iikH of ;iii .ippcal to tlic nov- rf-.iior';r<'ii('r;il-ln-f,»niii(dl. TliLs iH wronj^; tlic! apjionl Ih from tlic h'p:l.sl;i- tlvc .•iKsfinldy of M.iiiltoii.i to tiio par- 11(1 mcnt of raiuid.'i, from tlio rrpro- Kcntii tlvcH of the people of Miinltol>;i, to tln' rejireHfiitntivcs of tho pooplo (including; thoHO of Mdiiitoli.'i) of Tan- ada.. Tlioii \\|i;it liMH tli<' Kf>vornor-Konoral to do with till' mnttor? I/ot mo ox- plain. Yon aro all fnniiliar witii tlKv functions of tlio ^rand Jury. It is not tlioiijjlit iiropvr that any person onRlit to Ite put 111)111! trial for a sorioiis of- fence, until there has lieon a prollmin- nry imiuiry as to wliethor tlioro is any ground for trial. The Krandjury •loos not dechle, wliotlior a man Is KUilty, l)ut It lias power to send Idin to trial. In the same way It was not tlioiitflit rlRlit by the frnmorR of our constitution tliat any one of Ids own mere motion, hIiouU'i bo able to Institute (in appeal from tiie local l(!>j:isiature to the Duininioii |»arlla- ment upon mattiu-s of education; and fiolt was provided that there siiould Ilea preliminary iiniulry as to wheth- er tliore wore any vrrounds for such ai; app-al. This Itniuiry is nuule by the ^?ove^nor jfeneral and If he thinks that the petitioners have a cane, he allows them to carry it before par- liament. How Pilicli periiii.- fioii could hav(! been refused In the jiresent oaBo, after the decision of the privy roiin- cil, passes my coiiipreherisio'n to un- dorfitand. As to till! form of the remedial or- der, It was neciissary that It should conform to tin- statiito. A Krand jury's indictment Hays that the prisoner dhi on a rortalii day com- mit a crinio. Who over abused the grand Jury for using that language al- though the man had never been tried? It |h tho lanKiiagi; of the law. Tin: Old) SVSTK.M. 11 Is often asserted th it the remc- dill onlor commands tli • reHtoratlon of the old system, and Mr. I'edley iIikIk f.iull wi h th it oM syBtem with- out oliM'rviii^ th'it til- pi'liicipai f>'U- ture th it was oh] ctioiuihl > haH been omitted. It iiniloiibted y was a very practical olijectloii to tho old Act, that IL worked bidl> in spuiHly Hot- ti (1 an 1 mixed coiiimiinit i s. 1 iiulto aur .e with wh it Air. I'edl y says upon that subject. If there wore too few Catholics in a dlstrl't to fo.in a school for tliemselvcB tli"y o-caped taxation iillo;;oth r, fo ■ tln-y could not In; compelled to support the Hcli'iols o: tlie majority. Hut the re- niMiial order do s not re-inlro tlie con- tinuation ol this state of things. It aKk< mi:r<'ly 'Th ' ri.ciit of exemption of Ml Ji Konian CitlioU s as con' ribute to tlie Koman Catholic schools, from all payment or contributions to tho nujijiort of any otiier scliools." livery- oneoiiKlitto jiay his share of taxoH for education; an;ht to disapprove of books used la Catholic h "Iioo b relaliiiK to morale and relii^lon. Thl-i wae a sen- timental olijoctlon, but n -vertlicIcsK, to I'lotestantH, a real on ■; so at Ottawa I offered to remove tho oh- Jei'tioiuiblo reforenco to the chnrcli. FurtluT, I used Jit Ottawa tlii-< langiiago, and I here repeat It. : '"Tiier.- are various jiointH, reuarding lift ills, mini whi'-li we would b ■ very willln.; to mik • soni" conipromUe or aKrceni nt wl h tlie Mmlloba novern- mcnt; but we are at presi-nt la this difficulty, that we ;ire not In a jiosi- tion to ask that jiny conipromlsrr, lidwever fair, should be enacted by the Dominion ^raHed upon the priticipleis of common sense." Itlghts are .supposed to be of tliree Isinds; 1, .sacred. They are sacred when, for the moment, they are on your Hide; and y^- must therefore not howl senselessly, but with discrimina- tion; 2, Secular. They are secular when you ha\e no present use for them; .'{, Profane. They are profane when they are against you. For eix- araplo to Mr. Pedley at the present timi I'rovinclal HlKhts, althougli op- posed to tlie constitution, are sacred; Dominion rights, althougli based on the constitution, are secular; and (atliollc's rights, guaranteed by con- stitutional compact, are profane. Do not misun Tstand me. I do not mean that Mr. i-edley has ever apostrophis- td Catholic rights in the Ijey of D; but merely this, that while he is pre- pared to worship provincial rights (as applied to this question) he treats Catholic rights as sometliing to he lightly tossed about and played with; to be disregarded "as a Manitohan,"' and to l)e paid for in damages "as u Canadian," To many Protestant preachers provincial rights are sacred to-day, and education a purely local affair but that is only because pro- vincial rights are now on tlieir side, and to liowI is not at present, sense- less. But when provincial rights were againsi; them, as they v.ere six short years ago. It w as the Dominion rights that wore, In their eyes, the robes of sanctity, and the liowl would have been extremely senseless. There must he discrimination in howls, if they are to do any good. I refer to the .Jesuit/ Estate Act in Quebec, which was passed by tlie lo- cal legislature without a dissentient voice. Forthwith the Rev. Principal Caven, the Rev. Principal Austin, the Rev. I). J. Macdonnell, and many other ministers; together with Mr. Dalion McCarthy, and many laymen, formed, not In Quebec, but in Ontario, the Eq- ual Rights asBOcitalon, in order pri- marily to attack the statute. You know what the Act was about. The Province ot Quebe^- agreed to purchase all interest, real or pretended, of the .Jesuitt' in certain estates, wlii-h had neen net apart for education, for $10f>,0f»0; and, for fear of seeming to do the Protestants an injustice, an equal amount (in proportion to the population) was set apart for Protes- tant education. This was /i question In no sense less of a local character than the Manitoba Hchool Act, But some I'rotestants wanted it disallow- ed, and, appealed from, so they took down the sanctified robes, and clapped them on Dominion rights, waved the eoostitutlon vigorously and ut when we have not got it, how can we resign it ! IIowl as we pleaHe, with (>.r without dis- cretion, t)r discrimination, we have no such power, and therefore can neither resign nor abandon it. There in no state in the union that could have passed the Act of 18SH), interfer- ing as it dots with vested right* Tlu'.re would not even be an appeal to anyeonstituted authority, thi' law would be absolutely void as ultra vires, I (Nevertheless, each state Is autonomous to the extent of its con- stitution. The province of Manltol>a has greater power than any state in the union in this regard, and lias It therefore no autonomy? Let us, I say, as British subjicts, be governed by our constitution, and not raise howls, senficless or otherwise, when a right of appeal, given Ity the ."oasti- tution, is put In exercise. OPINIONS OI' STATESMEN. Before closing 1 would like to point out that the opinions of Canada's leading statesmen have been in favor of St pa rate schools. Let me read to you an extract from Mr. Dope's "Life of Sir John A. Macdonald," tjie man who was the first to introduce the separate s "hi ol system Into Canada— the man who, therefore, according to Dr. Bryce, was no j)atriot:— "There remains but one iiuestion of practical politics In relation to which I propose to outline Sir John Macdon- ald's attitude. I refer to those of race and religion, which periodically threaten the j)eace (if Canada. It must be a])parent to the most care- less student of Sir John Macdonald's history, that British and Protestant though he was, at no time in hifl career had he any sympathy with that fierce intolerance of everything French or Roman Catholic which at the present time is abroad in the ■ province of Ontario. As far back as 1834 we find Jiim counting on his ', "friendly relat:o^> wit.h the French." I fn 1M5 ho introduced and carried a : bill In the interests of separate schools against the bitter opposition of George Brow'n. In 180.'^ he sup- I ported by speech and vote Mr. II.W, I (nowSonatori Scott's .\ct establisiilng ! a system of separate schools. In 1807 ! he perpetiuited this right to the Ro- man Catholic.s of Ontario, and at the same time provided for the French Canadians? with liberal guarantees for 1« the security of their Uinffcage, iiii*ti- tutions and lawi«. In 1870 he Hccured or thought be srcured, like priTileges to the Roman Catholics of Manitoba. We are not left In doiitot &k to Mb view of what waa intended bj the operation of the Maiiitolwi Act. In the very begLnning of the pr&'^ent .ngi- tatlon in that province, he thus ad- dressed a member of the local legis- lature, who had applied to him for counsel : •'You auk me for advice as to the course yoii should take upon the yexed question of separate schools In your province. There is it seems to me but one course open to you. By the Maiiitoba Act the proviHioiiH of the B. N. A. Act (Hftctioii {).■{), resppctiiiK law passed for tlie protectiooi of min- orities In educational matters, are mac?^ afiplionhlo V> Mnnitoha •>!!'' cannot be changed, for hy the Imperial Act conferring the establiHlunent of the new provlncoH, .'{4-.'].") Vic, sectidn 6, it is provided that it shall not be competent for the parliament of Can- ada to alter the provisions of the Manitolwi Act in ho far nn it relatos to the province of Manitoba. Ob- vldusly, then fore, the separate school system of Manitoba 1h beyond the reach of the legislature, or of the Dominion parliament," •'It (s true," Mr. Pope oontlnues, "that the highest tribunal in the empire Jias put a diffeient interpre- tation ori tlio Manitoba Act, l)ut with the merits of this question we are in nowifr^e concerned here. My object Is men ly to show what were the views of him who had by far the greatest share in the framing of this piece of legislation, as to its scope and ef- fect." Mr. Alfxrnder McKt nzl<>. In the de- bate on the New Brnnswlck whool case, said : ''I believe in free schools in the non-dei omliatlnnal system; and, if I oould persuade my fellow- countrymen in Ontario and Quebec, or any other province, to adopt that pririciple, it is the one I would irive preference tn above all others. For m.'iny years after I had a seat In the parliament of Canada, I waprd war ag.iliiet the principle of separate soh-ools. V I hoped to be able, ymmg and Inexperienced as I then was, to establish a system to whleh all would yield their assent. Sir, it w;;8 found to be impracticable in op'eration, nnd iraposjsible in pto:itical contingencies." Sir George Cartier's, Sir John Thompson's, Sir Oliver Mowat's and Mr. Edward Blake's opinions arc too well krown to need citation. Th^se are opinions of men wci informed upon tits qu s'lon of 8 pin rate ^cho^ 1?, men who were thiough the ileroe light« In the 60's; men well able to Judge whether the separate school system is baneful or iajuilous. Let us give heed to them. From great statesmen let us pass tf» two smaller ones— Mr. Green way and Mr. Martin. In 1872 the New Brunswick school qurstlon was de- bated In the House of Commons, ..nd Mr, Greenway was there. Canada had no Jurlsillction to interfere with New Brunswick, because there never had been separate schools there; but Canada did all that she could, and the House of Commons passed an ad- dress to Her Majesty asking her to use her Influence with the leirlslature of New Brunswick to procure relief for the Catholics. Mr. Greenway waH there, and Mr. Greenway voted for that add;ess. Aid ^^^. (JrC' nway remained In favor of separate s hoolB until ter Mr. Martin's I'eirtage la I'rairie speech in Au^rust of 188i>, in favor of establishing separate ^ehoo's. Mr. Greenway nv'c uo secret of his disapproval of this speech; and to his friends di nounced it as stupidity and madness. But Mr. Martin always had the means of controlling Mr, Greenway. He had only to tender his resljjrmitlein, and he had ids way. Mr. Greenway swallowed the nause- ous elose, but no one believes that the nasty taste has yet left his lips. And now for Mrt Martin. In 1890 he passed the 1890 Act— he was then in provincial politic*. In 1894 he de- nounced the Act— he was then in Do- minion politics. In an address to the Winnipeg Liberal club (20 Feb. 1894) he said: "He himself was not satis- fied with the School .Act, and never had been so. He had made a strong effort to hfive public schools, con- trolled by the ^ove^rnm|n|iit, nenlliy made national schools, with rellpion obliterated; and he was nf)w more convinced than ever that was the only School Act which could be justified as constitutional. They said that the state had njo right to interfere with the dlfferen/t defciominati'ons. but had the right to Interfere In the matter of reiigie)n; but he contended that they could not do the one without the other. It has been urged by sat- isfied supporters of the Act, that none could complain of the devotional ele- ment Introduced as it was of the broadest naturcvi But they found that the Roman Catholics had the very greatest objections to this pro- vision of the Act, and he was himself dissatisfied with it, and was glad many Protestants shared his objec- tions—The Roman Catholics had hon- estly stated that in their belief the 17 two forniH of education should go to- gether. The I'roteHtaiits admitted on the other hand that It wan impossible to have religious (traljiiiig In the schools, and only asked that It be re- cognized— liislstliig however on Im- lK)Hlng their views on otliers in that respect; rather than that small am- ount of religious training should .l>e done away with in the schools, the I'rotestantH said they would prefer the old state of affairs. He would leave It to hlH audience to determine wjiich was the more honest etand of the two." Need I go further In citing author- ity of great statesmen, and little* politicians. I wish I had time to give ypu further testimony, but I must hurry to a finish. THI-: PRIVY COUNCIL DECISION. If, ladies and geotlemeii, you decline to adopt the argummt-s which 1 have advanced in favor of separate KChoolK; il you decline to be bound by agreimint of 1870; and if you decline to give heed ^to opinions of eminent rafn, what is tlier© left that I can urge upon you ? Well, if ajgument, agreement and opinions fail I can ^t 11 urge \ipon you submlsison to the law, and to tlie Q(jnstitution, as in- teri)rt'ted by tJio liighest judicial tri- bunal— the pi Ivy council. It la uiifor- tuante tJiat the docision lias not been as to be accessible to give you some extracts published so all. Let me from it. "The tft^In^■ to become n were mil Iter icsentiit i ves tol'ii, and of >il)on wliU'h Nfanlloba was rrovinie of the Dominion of nenotiution between rep- uf the I'l'ovlnee of Manl- tho Dominion Government*.' Those wlio were Htii)ulatln£f for the indvisbms of section 1*2 as a condition of union and tliose who navr' their leKlsla- tive asHent to the Act by which It was brought al)()nt had in view the perils then apprehended." '•It was not doubted that the object of the first sub-section of section 22 was to afford protection to denominational schools.' "There is no doubt eltlier wliat the points of difference were, and It Is In the light of these that the 22nd section of thoManitobft Act of 1870, which was in trutli a parliamentary compact, must be read.'' "Tlie sole question to he determined is wliether n right or privilege which the Homan Catholic minority previously en- joyed has been affected b.v the legisla- tion of 1890. Their Lordships are un- able to see how this ii'iestlon can receive any but an affirmative answer." "Bearing In mltul tlio circumstances which existed In 1870, It does not apj- penr to their Lordships an extravagant notion that in creating a legislature for the Province with limited powers It should have been thought expedient. In case either Catholics or Protestanti be- came prtponderant, and rights which had come into existence under different cir- cumstances were interferred with, to give the Dominion parliament power to legis- late upon matters of education, so far na was necessary to protect the Proteet- nnt or Catholic minority as the case might b«/' What lilasphemy and sacrilege! Did these Judges never hear of the sacred- nesB of provincial rights, or listen to that howl which under properly se- lected circumstances plays such an Important part in Canadian politics? Let mo request your special attention to the next extract dealing with the Catholic petition to the Governor- Oeneral asking for relief : "Their Lordslilps have decided that the Govornor-tieneral has jurisdiction and that the appeal Is well founded, but the particular course t(» be pursued must be determined by the authorities to whom It has boi-n committed by statute. It Is not for this tribunal to Intimate the X>reclso steps to l)e taken. Their general character is sufficiently defined by the third sub-section of section 22 of the Manitoba Act.'- ".Ml legit Imato ground of complaint would bo removed If that system (the system of 181>0I were supplemented by provisions wlilcli would remove the griev- ance upon which the appeal Is founded and were modified so far as might be nec- essary to give effect to these provisions. '■ What is liere said: 1. That the Catholics ^lave a grievance; 2. that their appeal is well founded; 3. that the general character of the proper course to be taken is clear, namely that the act of 1890 ought to be supplemented Ijy provisions which would remove the grievance, and 4, that the precise steps to be taken ought to be determined by the gover- nor-genera 1-in-council. This se: ms ])lain eaiough for any un- prejudiced inlnd, but Mr. McCartliy mikes two remarks about It. He said at Ottawa : 1. That the privy coun- cil went beyond the record and had no right to say what It did— as to whlcli I fancy that wo will l>e content to take the council's opinion Jind not that of Mr. MeC.irthy; jitul 2, to use his own language "I say that is going a long way because they have obtained a solemn decision of the highest tri- bunal but there is a constitutional powiT with than fiiMmcil to say, not- with«tiinding the di cisloti of a court of law Upon this point that they will not act upon that opinion." Then wjiat are we to act upon if not up- rm the decl.sions of the highest pos- sible constitutional and judicial auth- ority; upon what then? Ladies and gentlemen, may I not fairly ask you to st;ind by our constitution and our courts, assured that in no other way can endless anarchy and confusion be avoided. IS CONCLUSION. : And now In codcIuhIou I beg to bring before you an object lesBon. In 1890 there were in the city of Winni- peg five Catholic Hchools, wltli '>7Q iicholars. To-day those s^'hools are etili there, but the scholars have In- creased to 704. J)urlng these five years the Catholics have p:ihl their share of taxes for the other schools, and have, with great difficulty, and much «-eIf-denlal, maintained their owii schools as well. They have done this quietly, patiently, to the law submissively," hut It must be added somewhat grudgingly, for they are for the most part of the less affluent classes, and as Mr. Pedley s.'iys "they feel that faith wltii them has not been kept." Nevertheless, Protes- taiitm, you h.ive heard nothing of their complaining, although some of you, feeling the Injustice that was being done, have generously helped them. The taxe-f for school purposes In the City of Winnipeg meanwhile have been iiicrensiiig, until Protestants them- selves are finding them hard to pay. How would you like If besides paying for your own schools you had to sup- port others as well? Why do the Win- nipeg Catholics make the double pay- ment' Well, tliey say for conscience sake. They keep up [their separate schools for the same reason tliat Pro- testants keep up their separate chur- ches—for conscience sake. AnJ are these schools inefficient ? No such charge has ever been made, but in the ! name of the Roman Catholics of tlils city, and with their sanction, I in- vite you to go and see for yourselves —sec their work and see how mucli of their time is given to catachlsm. ; I could not bring the children here; but I hare done what lean, I have ; brought here iiamples of their work, ! and specimens of their books, and i their time tables, and I ask you at the ! close of the proceedings to come for- j ward and Inspect them. What then, will Winnipeg Protes- tants continue to make profit out of the Catholic conscience, and to di- minish their taxes by enforced con- tributions from those who can make no use of the present schools? Is that fair Is It Just, Is it reasonable, is it honest? Which of Mr. Pedley's rea- sons will he offer for the continuation of this crying Inequality ? Protestants of Winnipeg, the best of you, are you not ashamed of the result to which Intolerance has brought us, as well as of the faith-broken path by which It has come ? Are you not ashamed to make money out of the religious con- victions of your Roman Catholic fel- low citizens ? Are you not willing to pay for your own schools ? and to let the Catholics keei> the money which under the pre- sent system they have to contribute to your support? I leave it to your Judgment, trusting that my effort to place the matter fairly before you may prove of some assistance in your reflections.