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"That in the opinion of t'lis House it is necessary ami cxpuilient, in the interest of Collegiate Kdueation, tliat some coniiiri'lionsive solienie. bi; ilevised anil aiiopted fors'vinji elfect to the objects, anil for e>;tenilin^' the ojierution ot tlie Act 1(1 Viet., ('ap. 8\>, in th' c stalilishnient of a Provincial University, ami tlie atliliation of colleges to lie. siipiiorted in connection therewith.' TOROf^TO: PKINTED irOTl TlIIi; JPXJ33Ij18III5]RS, BY THE DAILY TrCLKGRAl'lI PIUNTIXG HOUSK, CORNER BAY AND KING STREETS. iioBKur.sox Axn cook, j'liorr.iKTOiis. 18G9. L THE COLLEGE QUESTION. MR. CLARKE'S SPEECH, Mr. CLARKE rose to move the following resolution : *' Tliat in the opinif>n of this House, it is necessaiy and expedient in the interest of Collegiate Education, that some comprehensive scheme ho devised and adfjpted for giving effect to the objects, and for extending the operation of the Act IG Vic. cap. 80, in the establishment of a Provincial University, and the afliliation of Colleges to be supported in connection therewith." In doing so, the honorable gentleman said he thought that in proposing to the House the adoption of this resolution, lie was infringing no rule of Parliamentary procedure. It was undoubtedly a well recogized principle that it Avas not competent for Parliament without a message of recommenda- tion from the Crowi), to pass any vote under which the public money might be a])pr()priated or expended. That rule Avas clearly laid down in the hi'.rli authority on Parliament Government, which was cited on a recent occasion by hit; honcirnble friend the Attorney-General. Ihit while the rule was very c]e:u-ly established, the exception to it was not the lens clearly established, namely, that it was in the iindoubtcd power of Parliament to tender its advice to tlio Crovvii \ipon io.iy public questions Avhafcevev, and by its resolution to ailirm as iin al)stract proi)03i- tion the expediency of any piiblic measure, although to carry out such mea- sure it might be necessary to expend the i)ublic money. The vote itself did not provide fur the expenditure of })ublic money. The vote simply aftirmed the deyirabilitj^ of a particular measure and if the Crown ;>.dopted the advice of Parliament, it might choose such ways and means for carrying out the measure as to its responsible advisers seemed exiiedient. Indeed to adopt any other ride than this would be to reduce the Legislature to the condition of a very subordinate and powerless part of Governmental machinery. To say that in everything involving expenditure they should propose nothing, •r>.'r*^.!''' i y TIIK COLLKOM (,)CKS'l'roX. initiate intlliiug, and that their functions sltiniM be limited in nieioi y endors- ing tlie reconiiiicndations of tlio Crown, wmihl l)i' lo j-ay tliat they hhonld ha redneed to a jxnition of praeHeal ins! .iiilicnnei' wliieh tlie re[)reru'niaiive.s of the peoph: ill 1 liis oiutntry v, :)idd sc-aro.;lv eave to oc'eni>y, 'I'he resolntioii Iteitig in order, li" vvoidd inention biieHy tlie reasons wliieh iudneed liini and those wlio agree! with liini to brinij tiie nsnller Id the notiee of tliu Honse. In asking tlie House to adopt the resoliUioM, the intention was to initiate a niovemeiit wliicli had for its ohjeet tliu improvement of our edncatioiial systeui, Wiiii.li ihey holieved to 1)0 at ]tve.seiit an inijierfect and iiiconipleto system, in so far a- eoneerned tliiit im[toi'la!it part of it, tlie iiiKtitutioiis for impartin:' O'lliogiate iniitrnction. It would soareoly be necessary for him to say iuiylhing :v;i to the neeessity, in a national point of view, of uiieouraging the edueationa! L'stabli.dinients of the eo\iiitry, or of promoting their etUeieiiey. He thought tliere was Kcarcely any honorablo gentlemen who would ehooso to say tliat this was not one of the most im])i;i(:iut of their parliamentary duticfu IL would searcelj- do for aiiy Legislature in this lOtli eentury, to declare that it did not recognize the lu'cessiiy of keeping ]iaco with the advanceme-at of the ago as regards the promotion of education, at a time ■\vhcii it was ■' ^' declared to us tliat nearly ail the degradatiitii, want of freedom a.i • .'tV.diedness which prevaded among the subject populations of the old W( -iu »vas traceable, directly or indirectly, to the unenlightened con- dition of tui; ]i..'oplL'. Surely, with this cr}' wringing in onr oars, it was not the time to stop short and say that in this cnintry we should do no more for the cause of the eil'icai.ion of the masses. 15ut he had lieard it said that the education of tlie masses was one thing, aU'l e(dlegiate education was another. Some said let the wealthy who de.sire colhsgiate education pay for it. •' Let lis aid," they said " th<' humble scholar in ae<[uiring an ordinary education, and if he wi.shes to acijuire more than that, let i.im pay for it himself," or what was thi; same thing to him, let him do without it. Those who took that view of the matter would just open the book of knowledge to the Btudent and whenluhad learned enough to give him a desire to learn more, would close it to him altogether. But it was not in the interests of the wealthy tliat ail}'' r.y> tern of n.ivional instrr.ctiou wa.s established. The wealthy could always eduuate tiieniselves. It was in onler that poverty should be no bar to intellectual }>rogre33 — in order Miat where the aptitude for learning existed, there aliould spring up men sympathizing with and carrying with them the sympatlue;^ (if the people, who would be qualified to take i)art in publii. all'aiis and in the more prominent avftcations and imrsnits of the couutiy. If then it was desirable that the class of institutions referred to in the rusoluti'^n should receive national snp[)ort, we slnmhl see what had been done by us in this direction. We had a common school system, which he believed was remlering great and important services to the country ; a grammar school system imjierfect perhaps in its details, but still very bene- THE C<)LI.E(;K QUKSTION. L'lc'jy eiulors- y hluMild bo ;.sc'iiiiilivi>3 of iiilutiiMi l)oin5r im iiiul those f tlie House. I to iuifi.ato ii educational 1(1 incoiuiileto iNtitutions for ry foi- liiiu to (.!iu-<)ui'ii''infr K'ii'L'llicioncy. would clioose iai'liainoiitary 1 coutury, to aco with the 1, ut a time ion, AViint of •oiiulatious of ighteiiod coa- l's, it was not > no more for said that the was anotlior. for it. •' Let y education, himself," or >se who took ledye to the ) learn more, )f tlie wealthy roalthy could dd be no bar niny existed, ! witli tlieni ;o take i)art md pursuits Anns referred see what had Vstem, which ! country ; a I very bene- ficial in it3 f)peration. We had Ujiper Canada College, a useful institution, but still scarcely a part iiation, but what it ])rofessed to be one for the furtlujr developincnt of our educational system. i>-,it between the University and the rest of our national educational institutions, there existed a great chasm, ik'tween the X'niversity on the one hiind supplying the very highest kind crinstruction, jind our common and grannuar school systems on the otlii^r, Avnlch su])plie!i a kind of instruction i>eeuliav to them, there was a want wliicli had hitheri) l>cen in a yreat measr.re sujiplicd by what was known as the Denominational Colleges. It W(mld scarcely be contended that every student who wisjied to ac(|uire a collegiate education slumld come to Toronto for the jmrpose. He did not think the cai)acities of the Univer- sity and Upper Canada College would admit of it, and even if they did, the ccmsiderations of expense would preclude by far tlie greater nnud)er. He did not think either that it ^m'.s advisable that our entire collegiate system should be centralized in (me locality. The example of other countries showed that, at all events, there it had not been con.ndered desirable. When we looked at England and saw such places a.s Eaton and Harrow and Rugby ; and at (jermany, and i-'aw such places as Heidelberg and Bcmn, and when we see such a large niunber of Colleges situate in snudl towns in the United States, we must perceive that in those countries it h;id ii(jt been deemed desirable to con(^entrate the academic systeui in the great centres of popula- tion. He thought that such a system, to be enjoj^ed by the whole countrj'^ ought to be diflused over the whole country. It would then be more acces- sable to the whole country, its l)enefits W(HUd be more generally felt, it would become cheaper ; the money expended in maintaining it benefitted nnjre the whole country, and it was (pjite consistent with tluit ditl'usiit, be siniihir to those in force in the University of London. Tho plan of tho University of London Avaa well kaoivn. It consisted of a corporation which exercised the power of cxaniinin,',' pu]tils in certain prescribed l)ranches of stndy, and conferring de- grees, honors and scholarsiiips. Tho pupils examined received no part of their instrtiction from the University, but in dih'crent Colleges lying in differ- ent parts of die country, and altiliated with the University. The Act then went on in sections, from 31) to 54, to establish and deline tho functions of University College. University College was to bo a body (piite distinct from the University, and of quite a dillerent character. University College was to bo a teaching body, a first-class College, handsomely endowed, but having a sepaia e ('rganizatif)n, and in no way connected with the University beyond what itlur Colleges might be, having the privilege of sending its students to tho University and obtaining its degrees, just as other afliliated Colleges should have. As regards endowment, the House was aware that at an early period an iippropriation was luiide oi a (juantity of the waste lands of the Crown for the advancement the income fund was to bo devoted (after paying charges of management) firstly to defraying the expenses of the University ; sec(mdly, to defraying the oxi)cnses of University College ; and by tho Slst section, the surplus of the income fund was to be apjiropriated by Parliament from time to time to the advancement of academical education in Upper Canada. The permanent fund was to be kept intact, to produce a revenue in future years, excepting a part of it should be refjuired for piirposes of improvement. From this short review of the Act, it would appear that in addition to the object previously referred to, there had been in view as regards the endowment, three other objects ; Namely, to sustain the University, to sustain the University College, and, afterwards, so far as the income fund woidd allow, to sustain the other academic institutions of the country. Two of those objects had been attained. The two institutions at Toronto had been amply supported, but aj regards the last objects, the Act failed altogether. At the time the Act THK COLLEGE QUESTION. I jirovidud by vilcge obtain- lk;goH, and by llcyiatu insti- iiiy. By sec- ro.si)cct to the OS, and their ailar to those ty of London the iiowor of onfcning de- id no part of yhig in differ- Tlie Act then 3 functions of distinct from College was 1, but having jrsity beyond :9 students to ited Colleges ■it at an early lands of the ct the endow- mw fund and all the inter- n all moneys ■chase money 78th section, management) to defraying he surplus of no to time to le permanent , excepting a )m this short ct previously , three other I'sity College, lin the other s had been pported, but he time the Act was passed, in 1853, there was an excess of revenue over the expenditure of the Toronto establishments of $12,138 from the income fund, so that the legislature very naturally supposed that about that sum would in each year bo at tho disposal of Parliament wherewith to aid tho other Colleges. But since about 1857, in conse(juenco of the expensive buildings put up for the uso of tho University, not (mly had tho income fund been all expended, but it had been found necessary to trench very largely on the permanent fund. It Wivs no part of his object to enquire how far this was judicious, nor how far it was legal to encroach upon tho permanent fund. Ho wished merely to point out to the House that the other collegiate institutions, so far from receiving any aid from tho income fund, had seen tho permanent fund, the conmn of the endowment itself, very considerably diminished. The question might be asked why was it that the outlying Colleges did not affiliate with the University. The answer to that was, that the defective character of the Act Avas not calculated to secure that object. The Act made no certain provision for any of the College. Ti.ey were only to have such portions of the income fxmd as tho University and tho University College chose to leave, and as they chose to leave nothing, there was no inducement for the Colleges to afhliate. In tho next place, the constitution of the Senate was unfavorable to the affiliation. Under the Act, tho members of the Senate were nominated by tho Crown, and the affiliated Colleges had no right as such to be rejnesented in tho Senate. A few of the professors in (nitlying Colleges were ai^pointed to Senatorships, but as a gen- eral thing the Senate was controlled by gentlemen interested in University College. Consequently the other Colleges, finding that they would have no weight or influence in the board of the University, and practically speaking, wovild have nothing to do with its management, refused to affiliate at all. Now, if those were tho objects of the Act of 1853, and if they had been frustrated by the defective nature of the Act itself, he 'vas jiroposing to the House no novelty wlien he said that wo should make better provision for carrying out tho intentions of that Act. We found » certain purijoso declared on our statute book, and it was now proposed that that purpose should now be carried out by some more effectual provision than that which now exists. The scheme which was foreshadowed in the resolution before tho House, and which it was believed Avould answer the purpose, was a scheme for the promotion of academical instruction so com- prehensive and provincial in its character that it should meet with general approval, and the basis of which was an aftiliation of the local colleges with the university. In order to show that such a measure would meet with general approval, he would refer to the views of some of the public men, whose opinions were entitled to great weight. In 1861 there was issued a commission to enquire into the working of the University of Toronto. The commissioners were the Hon. James Patton, (then the vice-chancellor of tho til 8 THE f'OLLE(»E QUESTION. Univeraity,) Dr. Boatty, of Cobonrg, and Mr. John Patton, of Kingston. The report i)ro8ontocl by those guntlunien was very vahiablu, and he would now refer to it. Under the hoad of HuggestionB, it was recommended that the Senate be reconHtitutud and consist of a fixed ntunber, namely, the heads of the collogoB, one ineinbor from each aihliated college, elected by its mem- bers, and the remaining third appoirtod by the (Government; that the nam* be clianged to the University of Upper Canada, and that the Senate should establish a connnon curriculum of education. It would be seen, also, by this report, that tlie authoritioH of the University themselves wore in favour of some such measure as this. In answer to '^he incpiiries of the commissioners, the Senate said, "that )'t was desirable that there should be one University Board for Upper Canada, to l)o designated the University of Upper Canada, to which cortiiin Colleges should be aftiliatod." The same views wore expressed by the Principal of Queen's College, the Principal of Victoria College, the President of llegiopolia College, and nearly the same views by the Provost of Trinity College. Those wei-e the oi>inions expressed on behalf both of the University and the colleges, and also by the commissioners appointed to •xamine specially into the matter. And as regards the o]>ini«n8 of the people at large, he ventured to say that these views would bo endorsed not only by a majority, but a very largo majority indeed of the people of Ontario. The numerous petitions presented to this Htmso, now amounting to several hundreds, and the character of the individuals signing those petitions, ought to be suflicient to convince this House that the great mass of the people of this Province were in favour of the promotion of higher educati(m by some such measure as this. Who were the people signing those petitions? Take them in a religious point of view, and they were of nearly all the numerous bodies of Christians in the coimtry. Take them in a social point of view, and they embraced all classes, from the judge on the bench down to the laborer. And looked at politically, we found on the one hand the Premier of the Dominion representing one class of ojjinions, and, as for the other, he (Mr. Clarke) had the honour of i)re8enting a favorable petition a few days ago to which was appended the signature of a gentleman who was chairman of a great convention which met in Toronto last year, to settle the fate of the nation. It should be remembered that while the objects of the Act of 1853, so far as the outlying colleges were concerned, was defeated, those institutions enjoyed some compensation for their loss in the shape of small annual grants from Parliament. During the last Session the Lieut. -Governor, in a message to this House, declared the inexpediency of continuing those grants in the future. It was not sought now to re-open that question. Although, under the practice of grants, the injustice done to any one was infinitessimally ■mall, yet, theoretically, the practice was open to objection, for it proceeded upon no logical or symmetrical plan. It was his intention, at the beginning of this Session, to urge the advisibility of affording a temporary aid to the ■I THE COLLEOE QUESTION. » J). collogoB until something nioru oHiciunt whh ntibHtitutecl for t!io grunt HyHtein, but on the iidviou of h'Huu honorn))lu munibcrH on both nidou of tlio hoiiHu, it had been deomod bust to utrike at tlio root of tlie evil iit once, and to propose an entirely »■ \v Bclionjo for the advancement of academic instniction. It ahouhl Hcarcely bo re(|nired of him to indicate i»recisely what tlio (U^tailH of Buch a Hcheme wouhl lie. It wouhl be for His Excollency'K government, if the reHobition were pus^'d, to devise the best ways and means for attaining the object wliicli was had in view. Let the government })rin^ down tlieir own schenio oh tlie subjoc', and if it should bo a comprehensive and liberal scheme they might rely upon his humble endeavors to aid in making it law. But in case it might be said that the present proposal was rather indefinito ho would suggest that the mere outline of such a scheme as thisi—Let there be established a new university board, composed ot the boards of tlie colleges, the re})resenttttive8 of the cidleges an erpial number of gentlemen a[»itointed by the government. Let this board estiiblish a counnon ciirrlrvbttn of educa- tion for all the afhliated colleges. Let every college reciuiring afHliatii>n bo prepared with a tixeil amount of capital not less than a certain sum, and let no college be entitled to atHliati(m or govenunent aid unless its capital cume up to the prescribed amoiuit, and let each of those colleges attain a certain standard by maintaining ii certain number of chairs of instruction, and adopting the conunon curriculum prescribed l)y the Univeraity. Let the governmental aid be either an ecpuil amount to each college, or bo based upon the cai>ital subacribetl, or the amount (if work done, or some equally impartial system; and let each of those chiroHt]f of Colleges. I am opposed to all monopolies, and I know of no special reason why this metropolitan city should enjoy a monopoly of the higher edut^ation of our people. I believe that the existence, not on a precarious but on a per- manent and effective footing of other Colleges, would do much to excite a healthy emulation : and whilst a majority of our future graduates will receive their instruction here from the distinguished men who now occuj^y the chairs of University College, and from their successors, I shoui. J. be soriy to think that this Province willnotyethave cause to be proud of men who look to some of the THE COLLEGE QUESTION. IB iinaiy satis- !incl if I now ouse, I trust ccasion I do ', 1 liave the , the subject avo come to of a greater if soiiio well cli, Avitlioiit ilier kintlred 3111 our lialls iy had there ) further, as r only difli- I hold it to facilities of on to which dgment, no that which I we have it snu^ than a nt, was last issuiiie that lid l»e sanc- le question •<\ phiralit]! icial reason ;• education it on a per- to excite a rt'ill receive ■ the chairs think that ome of the other (colleges of Ontario as their .1 /ma Mater. Let it be remembered, too, that some of these Colleges are anteriijr in their histoiy to University College, and although they have not had the goo I fortune to fall heir to so goodly an iuheritiuice, they took their rise at a thne, when there was, properly Sj)eaking, no University in this Province, into the chairs of which other than the strictest Shibboleth f:ould gain for a man admittance ; and under many dis- advantages and with restricted means, they have manfully dcjne their part in promoting the interest of higher education. I now come to face the (piestion, whether institutions in Ontario, hitherto controlled by certain religious de- noiiiinationa, should find that fact an insuperable bar to tlieir reception of public aid ? (Hear, hear.) I pre:.-unie it is not inadmissible for a man to hold an ideal ;ui(l still accept conditions lower than that ideal, as the best practical settlement of a confessedly difficult question? I am free t(i confess tlai uiy ideal in this matter, would be the permanent establishment of certain Iiooal Colleges, on a iion-sectiirian basis, wliose students, when wisliing de;|recs \vi>uld go up to one central University, and there enteiiiig into com- petitiou with their fellows, secure the high honor v.liich I trust, will always be attached to a Canadian degree. But if the local Colleges enjoying the coiitidence of certain religious denominations, and, on that account specially cherished by a section of our people, are willing to come under a common 'jurriculum, to i>repare their students in arts for a common examination, and to give every guarantee by submitting to Governmental ins[)ection for the etfiuiency of the education imparted ; then I am iKJt prepared to say that it would not be a proper appropriation of public monies, to aid the cause of public education through these institutions, liy the payment of the salaries of ceitain [)rofessors in arts whose n(nuination might rest with the Covcrnment, t)r by the erection of C(jllegiate Buildings. What I. desire is the greatest good to the greatest number— and I feel assiired tliat by utilizing the activi- ties of denominational effort, without compromise of principle, and by recog- nizing th'j sjtt'e 1 c,)nvi^ti(m? of a portion of our peo[)le, who by their p3rsiE- tent sustenance of these C'olleges, seem to me to declare their continued pre- te'.'eiice for tliem— the interests of the whole community will be eubserved. H< ii()ra')le gentlemen say, why ask us for aid to any extent in supi)ort of Ci)ll;_'4eH, which m.iy be consideied under the wing of a denomination to which we do not hehmg, but they forget that the whole community is not of their Avay of thiukin'g, and tliat those who prefer not to use University Colle<>'e have a claim on the consideration of the Legislature in the disposal of a iior- tioi\ (if that aid which the peoj.le of Ontario are willing to extend to higher ediicition. No one desires the recognition, by the State, of churches as such nor aid for the purpose of furthering distinctive theological education. By common consent that is now recognized as the special province of reli'ious comuiunities, and the aid, which in my opinion could consis'tntly be ten- dered bj L'.^gislativo enactment, must be confined t;) the endowment of 14 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. special chairs in the Faculty of Arts — to the providing of suitable buildinga, or other unobjectionable modes of assistance. It is claimed by some of my honorable friends, that by confiniu| ourselves to University College and frowning down any project for the assistmce of others, we secure perfect harmony in the community. Were it so, it would go far to convince me of the propriety of their course, but I have no such expectation, and one reason why I desire tliat the House should take this whole subject into its careful and candid consideration is the conviction I entertain, that the stifling of discus- sion now, is sure to be followed by an agitation over the land, of which the end is not yet. It is futile to ignore the religious activities of a i)eople as these are evidenced by their denominational efibrts, and despite all that has been said and written as to the danger of clerical influence in this behalf, I question whether some of the tnxest friends of intellectual freedom, of scien- tific research, and popular education, are not to be f '.ind wit'iin their ranks. Honorable gentlemen, for whose opinion 1 desire to entertain all due respect, appear ti> favor the idea that were the Gov. eminent to initiate some such scheme, the country Avould lapse into primeval barbarism, or at Icasb, into the undesirable coaditicju Avhich preceded the settlement of the Clergy Reserve controversy. I apprehend no &uch results. Here we have no dominant Church — in the eye of the law all men, a)id all persuasions, stand on a footing of perfect equality ; and if any large num- ber of our people attest their preference for institutions elsewhere than in this city, by partial endowment from tliair own means, and by sending their children there, it may bo bQcau33 the supervision exercised is to them satis- factory, or because the cost of education, and of living, is less than it possi- bly can be in a large city ; then I think the Governnient would do well by aiding the "cuurnoof Arts" in such institutions, provided the standard of education proved to be equal to that furnislied by Uiuvei'sity College, and men wove fnvnislied with ull tlie recpiisites for securing by fair and hout>rab!e competition, the highest honors in tlio gift of the Provincial University. Holding these views, and believing that it would be in the interest (i the whole people, that the denominational eftoit;; in the cause of educatio i sho ild be brou'iht into harmony witli our national Kystem, whilst v.'ith the Crovern- ment would rest that authoritative system of inR2)ection — on wliich alone a system of aid-giving could be xoiinded — I cordially support the resolution T/hich has been sub^nitted. (Cheers.) I € u^ :l! THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 15 table buildings, by some of my ;y College and secure perfect convince nie of and one reason its careful and ifling of discus- 1, of which the 3 of a j)eople as )ite all that has n this be-half, I edom, of scien- foimd witiin 1 1 desire to were the Gov. a into primeval 1 preceded the lo such I'csu Its. 1 men, and all ly large num- ivhore than in seiidiny their t;) them satis- tlian it possi- Id d') well by e standard of CoUoj^'c, and md honorable 1 University. itorest ( f the lieatio 1 sho ild the Govern- hieh alona a bo resolution MR CUMBERLAND'S SPEECH. Mr. CUMBERLAND said— I rise thus early is. the debate to address the House upon this question, because, feeling that I can give a most cordial support to the resolution of luy hon. friend from Grenville, I desire to avail of the earliest moment for putting myself, and those with whom I have the pleasure of acting, in a right position with reference to the criticisms to which we have already, and I think somewhat unfairly, been subjected in regard to the ground we take upon what has c«jme to be called ' ' the denom- inational question." The whole subject embraced in the resolution of my hon. friend is one of such prime importance, and involves such grave interests, not only for to-day but for the whole future of this countiy, that any man who attempts to discuss it enters upcm a high responsibility ; and, if he has anj- fit sense of that responsibility, — vrith groat fear lest he should do it injus- tice. (Hear, hear.) And let me first say that there is no public service in this country, which so completely commands the sympathy of the people, or so freely attracts its liberality, as that of education. The whole mind and heart and vigour of the jieople, seem to be, I Avon't say concentrated upon, but at any rate most warndy directed towards this object. All are anxious and all ready to lend their aid and means towards corrcctin;^ v.liiilcver may be wrong, and strengthening whatever may be Aveak in our great system of education. Thus we have rccentlj'- acknowledged, — although it is some time since Ave made the discovery — that this great sy.stem of o-.irs, hoAveA-er theo- reticallj^ perfect, is in one ]iarticular at least, a failure. It is but a day or two since tliat ii committee of this House came to the decision that at the very base of that system there is a failui'e ; that in the cities and towns, if not elsewhere, it does not roach the idle, thriftless, A'icious classes, the so- called arabs of the streets ; tliat it does not attract or touch tliose, Avho, fail- ing in any appreciatii^n of education nay, Avho CA'en stubbornly reject its advantages, are fit objects for the exercise of the cocrciA'e poAvers of the State, and a full justification for the adopticm of a compulsory system. And if Ave are agreed that our existing system has been a comparative failure at its base, so, I am inclined to think, Ave shall come to agree that it has failed too at its summit ; and it is Avith the summit — with the subject of the higher education — that avo have to deal to-night. And here I would incidentally refer to Avhat I believe to be the opinion of this I It •I 10 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. House cand of the coimtry, in' relation to the Grammar Schools. There is a feuliiijj abroad — and it has received recognition in this House — that the Grammar Schools are not doing the style and class of Avork that it ■\vo\ild be titting and to the advantage of the State that they should do. (Hear, hear.) There is an impression that the classical status which is made the l)aHis of the public aid accorded to them, might be beneficially relaxed in favor .of n more practical standard better fitted to the future objects and callings of tlie majority of the pupils attending them ; and that by releasing these schools from their obligatory clasHicid teaching to all alike, and su])plyiug, in lieu of it, a higher teaching in those English branches which are of practical value in the future business of life, a great improve- ment would Iju effected. If these opinions be well grounded, and if there is, as 1 l)oUeve there is, a strong disposition in this House to act upon them, then it becouies more than ever imjjortant that we should well ccmsider how the interests t)f higher education would be thereby ali'octed : for, when we relieve the (»ra]iniiar ScIkjoIs of mucli, if not all, oi the obligatory classical teaching, it v.ill be our duty to supply that teaching somewhere else, and to make some compensation for that Avlinli may thr.s be taken away, (hear, hear,) for unless Ave are content to be " a nation of mediocrities," we must keep open tlie channels to learning, in the higlier sense (jf the term, and make provision for the proper education of the i)rofessional classes. (Hear, hear.) If 1 am right in this, then it is essential that we should strengthen and systematize our College and University estalilishments, and this, I take it, is the object of my honorable frioud's resolution, which invites us to devise some comprehensive scheme for giving a broader, and yet a more harmonious, o[)eratiyal Charter or by Act of Parliament, and also such other insti- "tution<3, corporate or unincorporate, as now are or shall hereafter be estab- ** lished for the purposes of education within this Province, which the Gov- • "ernor shall from time to time prescribe." What possible language could have given the Act a broader or more liberal sphere of action, including as ' within the range of the University and as entitled to share in its advantages " all the Colleges," and all the other educational institutions, meaning, of • course, of the standard of a College, within the limits of Upper and Lower Canadi, then united under one government and legislature. And as though to mark, word by word, and line by line, how strongly the legislature at that time desired to overspread the country with these institutions in affiliation with the one central University, the Act goes on to say that " the Chancellor " and Senate may grant scholarships, prizes and rewards," and that "such " scholarships may be held, as Univers.ty scholarships, in any of the affiliated " institutions ;" in other words, that the students of the Colleges at Cobourg, Kingston, Ottawa, or elsewhere, may hold scholarships from the University of Toronto, and thus practically participate in the wealth of its endowment. ^Cheers.) And then, as though to protect the rights of the outlying Colleges to such a general participation, it proceeds to declare in the very no&t clauss), ihni "the scholarships held by University College, prior to the passing of the "Act, shall continue to be held as belonging to that College alone;" clearly showing that whilst with great propriety and justice the legislature guarded the then existing and exclusive rights of University College, it was deter- mined, we now know how vainly, (Hear, hear), that all other and future scholarships, arising from increased endowment, or augmented income, should be free for distribution amongst all the Colleges throughout the country. We shall see presently how that provision has worked; first, however, II THE COLLEOB QUESTION. It ictions ihftU Bveral Faoul- the d liferent express th* all the Col- ard the Uni- >y any one of )f the brond lection that [ents already )oae with the >r the respec- igh and cotn- e may deter- tutiassing of the :>ne;" clearly ,ture guarded t was deter- r and futur* tcome, should the country, st, however, '0fr: glMiciiig at the measure of support intended by the Act to b« girea.' to these outlying and affiliated Colleges. And, first, the Act vests all th« property and eifectH, ruul and personal, belonging to the University, in the Crowi>y in trust for Upper Canada College, University College, and the University of Toront(» ; and then it provides that "any surplus of the " University Income Fund remaining, after defraying the expenses payable " oiit of the same, shall ccmstituto a fund to be from time to time appro- " p iated by Parlituueiit for academical education in Upper Canada *" that is t > say, for distribution amongst." ail the Colleges" to be affiliated under this Act with the central University. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, unfortunately for those Colleges, this surplus has turned out to be illusory. In 1853, when Mr. Uinuks, the then Premier, was framing this Act, he made official inquiry as to the probable income from this groat endowment, and was told by the author;.tie8 of the Univeraity themselves that it would amount to $80,000 » year ; and as the annual exi)enditure has been plactd at $46,000 a year, it is quite clear, that, at that time, the Premier, Mr. Hincks, the Government of which he was the chief, and the Legislature which adopted this enactment, were all acting in (he belief that there would be a surplus of from $30,000 to $35,Ol»0 a year for " appropriation by Parliament for other academical * education in Upper Canada," in fact for the outlying Colleges. Sir, I make no charges against any one of extravagance or misappropriation ; I deal sin\ply with the facts as I find them, and, unfortunately, it does so hapxieti, that, in the presence of the facts as they stand, we must dismiss th B .«iuri>lii8 from our minds ; — there is none, nor is there, I fear, a hope of any, Hcoing that the fund from which it was to have arisen is some $70,000 in debt. (Hoar, hear.) But I refer to this imaginary sur])lus now, in order t » mark eti'ongly what was the intent .f this Act, and, in view of the intent, t'» mark what are the rights and claims of these Colleges upon us, seeing that the surplus which was oti'efcd to them in 1853 has vanished, and that they rMui)al>ly Inok for some compensating provision in its stead. (Hear, hear.) Sir, we neeil not search far for a solution, for when, in 1856, just thrive years after this Act wan passed, the Legislature discovered that this surplus of some $35,000 a year was illusory, it hastened to vindicate its pledgtiM to those Colleges by embodying in the Grammar School Act of that Sesaiun a provision to the elfect that "the 0um of $20,000 shall be yearly " appropriated out of the Cttnsolidated Revenue Fund of this Province for ' ' the encouragement of superior education in Upper Canada, and shall be " distributed among the several Collegiate Institutions in Upper Canada," by ;iubjected to, and such a protest at su«h a time might possibly h'ive found some justification. But to-day we are free of all outside influ- ences ; we have no partners ; and the taxes that are levied from us are expended amongst ourselves and by our own authority ; there is no danger of their being carried away to build u)) an eccbsiastical doMiination elesewhere ; and surely, therefore, this is not the time to revive the elietehowlof anti-sec- tari uiisui. Better far for us to take tnie measure of the circumstances in which we are plau< d, to take guago of the wants and responsibilities of the diy, apart from all the old party strifes with which three-fourths of this House h wo nyithor cprove 1 of the measures which seculanzed the Clergy Reserves. I a[)plauded, and had I then been in public life, I would have assisted in opening the dtiors of King's College to all denominations. To-day 1 support with all my heart the Common School system established in this Province. 1 am not going to be guilty of the inconsistency of hark- ing back to an ex[>loded system ; but I hope I have the courage to face a false issue, nnd to do batt'c with it, however unpopular the duty, and I stamp this sectarian cry against the Colleges as a false issue. (Hear, hear.) I grant at once, so far as I am concerned, and so far as my approval of the objects con- temidated by the resolution before us is concerned, that were a vote to be taken t<»-night for a repetition of the deneminational grants, unconditionally andwholcsale, asgrantedinthepast, I would vote directly against them. Public monies should not, in my opinion, be appropriated for exclusive uses ; wherever they are granted, the do(jr should be wide open for all the people t(» share in ttie benefits of the expenditure, with such restrictions only at may be essential to the due admiuistration of the funds. But what I assert and believe is this, that without receding from our opposition to sectarian grants, as such, it is possible, nay, easy, so to change the nature of these existing Institutions, and so to avail of the stability and permanence to which they have attained, as that, without sacrifice of the principle of non- 22 THE COLLWIK QUKSTION. MotarianiBiu, mny uphold the guud faitli of tho LogiHlatiiro towa^dn thoae CoUegut, ns pledgud to tlioiii by tho Acta of IHT),') nrid 18CC, to wliich I )iav« Already refuiTed. (Hoar, huar. ) I say, sir, " wititotit Ihu Hacrifico of the " priiiciplo of noii-scctariaiiisui," for thuro I Htop, bccauHo 1 dciliiio to join in a rabid Wiii*fnro ngaintit uvci'ytliiiig ruli^iotiH. HeligioiiH bigotry and intolcranco aro hiitcful unough, but intoleratico of all religion iH simply abominable. (Cheers.) Wo enj.iy religious liberty, full and uouipletu ; let UH watch and guard it with tho most jealous vigihmco, but lot us bo careful lost, in our dread of ecclesiastical domination, and a distrust of our own Rtrength to resist it, wo bo not guilty of the crime of opprcHHing everything religious. (Hear, hear.) And who will dare to sav— is there any honorable momborof this House who will tako tha responsibility of saying — tl at upon this (piostion the heart and judgment and tempir of tho pcoi)lo is unsound. I warn honorable gentlemen, that if hero, to-day, a new crnsndo is to bo ma:le against everything that h is about it the savour of a Christian faith, the people will resent tho outrag', and will teach (joverniuentH iind Parlia- ments that the religious liberty of which wo boast go much aiul so justly, shall 1)0 protected against this secular intolerat;ce. (Cheen.) And will honui'ablo gentlemen tell me that nothing b j the annihilation of th( so Colleges will auttice to satisfy these secular i)rejudices ; that it is impossible so to change their systonx as to satisfy the contlitiona of a i on-nectarian grant ? If they do so, I take them back to the history of University College, how it sprang out of, and was indeed tho mere product of, it? predeeessor, King's College, which, as I have already said, was a close i-oligious corporation, an ecclesiastical establishment, held and admijubtered by one Church, to its own exclusive uses. And what have wo to-day in Univei'sity College? A purely secular Institution, upheld by the same endownui.t', surrounded by the same graduates, and administered, to a large extent, by the same Professors as had previously attached to King's. Tho change, as a ch nge of principle, has been comiilote, but it has been attained, not by di jtrnction and annihilaticm, but by tho jireservation and maiutenanco of whatever was good and i)romising, and available, in the original College. 8omo of the most distinguished Professors of King's, themselves Divines of the Episcopal Church of England, are now, hy their labors, building up the reputation of University Colli go. Surely that is in itself suflicient answer to tho prejudice which would imply that it is impof sible, with secular safety, to teach Latin and Greek by the hands of Divines? No one can say that the classical work of University College is not well and successfully directed by \ti distinguished President (tho Rev. Dr. McCaul), and surely if, at University College, it be compatible with a non-sectarian Bystem, with ytmr secular prejudices, that Greek and Latin m-iy be twght by an Episcopalian Divine, then, Episcopalian as I am, I ask why may they not as well bo taught at Kingston by a Presbyterian, or at Cobourg by a Methodist Divine 1 (GheerB.) is :' THE OOF.LKOK QUESnON. 23 r'hich 1 hav« L'rilico of the iliiio to join bigotry and on ifi flimply Diiiplfto ; ]«t lis ho careful of our own g ovcrytliiiig iiy honorable f— tl.at upon a is unsountl. ado i» to bo iristiiin fuith, 1 nnd Par Ha- ul so justly, ) And win ;!()n of tlu 80 ia iinpossiblo 1 on-Hcctiirian r>iity Colh'gf, l>rt or your distrust you will rouse them to new vigor in a battle against that institution from which they are excluded, a battle all the more bitter and unrelenting because aroused by injustice and oppression. (Loud cheers.) Sir, for fifteen years, as I have said, these Colleges have been under the protec- tion of the State, and have received a measure of public aid ; and over that whole period if I am not mistaken, and I speak merely as a looker-on, over that whole period, never once were they met in the Legislature by a hostile vote, never once were these Colleges made the battle ground of party, nor the aid a jcorded to them opposed on a Sectarian issue ; (Hear, hear,) nay more, one of them, and that with which I am naturally supposed to sympa- THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 25 le, it is not, I ar administra- s, must neces- ionaistent with 3ar, hear.) I and what lias ciilarizing the : material was the Colleges. sy are all now m the public these Colleges T conditions of on of our sys- hese Colleges organizations, sountry lasts ; s the country ty to Christi- ffQ can utilize fuse them in ; to knock off in whatever ! great central ground, and I differences, ood citizens well said by and intensify lination shall and to nurse rovLT system, 'ur contempt against that 3 bitter and cheers.) Sir, the protec- id over tbat cer-on, over •y a hostile ' party, nor hear,) nay to sympsr ; thizo very closely, actually received its first grant at a time when on the for- mation of the Coalition Ministry of 1864, the leader the Reform party ■was in power. But, Mr. Speaker, with this glance at the Act of 1853, its objects and promises and working, I must pass on to enquire how it has hap;iened ihat these Colleges have failed to affiliate under its provisions with the Univer.^ity •of Toronto. A very simple and palpable solution at once presents itse'f — •very one of these Colleges being possessed of independent University pow- ers, received aid from \\\e State freely and without condition ; wliat elpe then could be expected but that, being so aided, they would continue to exrrciFe those powers and to maintain their separate existence and privileges as Uni- Tersities. Continue those unconditional grants and you may be pretty sui e that affiliation will never come ; but make the grants conditional upon affili - tion, and in all probability you will at once succeed. Another rens n of the failure was that the Act of 1853 gave no socurity to such of the Colleges as should affiliate ; for whilst of course they were required to suspend their University powers they were offered nothing in co- - pensation. (Hear, hear.) The Constitution of the Senate wivs by mmi- nation and favor of the Administration of the day — its number w: • unlimited, and the Colleges affiliating were secured in no right to a fair share, or indeed to any share, in the government of the Universitv. This Senate, as now composed, has forty-nine members, of whou) twenty- nine are residents of Toronto, twenty-four are directly connected with University College, and twenty are non-residents of Toronto. It is easy from this to see that the Professors and graduates of University College practically hold control of the Senate, and it is not, therefore, to be wondered at that the outlying Colleges hesitated to throw in their fortunes with an University whoso governing body was really a representation of the one favored and highly endowed rival Institution ; for, under such circum- stances, it was scarcely possible, except by the greatest stretch of goner sity, to believe that the' interests of Ottawa, Kingston, Cobourg, and other place?, would have any voice in the administration of the University. (Hear, hear.) Now, what doeg complete control of the University imply ? But, before answering this question, I desire to say, that, in all my observations relating to University College, or the University of Toronto, my wish is to speak with the utmost possible respect of all those in authority in those Institutions, towards which I entertain feelings of strong and unfailing loyalty, altogether repudiating any intention to weaken either of them, to join in any act of spoliation in regard to them, or to fail :n assistance to any measure calculated to give them fixture strength. Having thus, Mr. Speaker, fortified myself against misinterpretation, let me again ask : "Wliat does complete control of the University by one College really imply ?*' Sir, it implies precisely the state of things which the Act of 1853 was intended to 2G THE COLLEGE QUESTION. prevent, and which an appeal in that Act to tho precedent of the London Univui'sity was intended to condemn and avoid ; for it points to the adoption of an University standard best adapted to tlie particular powers of that particular College, a trimming, in fact, of the University standard to suit itself, (Hear, hear.) Again, it means the appointment of the University Examiners, the appointment of those, in fact, who are to test the powers of t!ie respective Colleges, and to dispense and distribute amongst the "alumni" tlie reAvards and distinctions due to University success. (Hear, hear.) Now, whaf are the facts with reference to the Examiners of past years. Sir, I h ive the i)rivilege of an intimate acquaintance — I may even verdure to claim of friendship, with many of the distinguished men who are charged with the administration of University College, and I believe that, under the circum- iitinco in wiiicli t' ey were placed, tht^y adopted the best, if not the only, possible course in regard to the Examiners ; but I know, also, that that coarse, luiavoidable as it was, has ofteii been most dist;isteful to themselves. What are the facf:.? Why, that, taking the years 18GG, '07, '08, we find seventy University Examiners appointed, of whom forty-nine, or seventy per cent., were in direct official connection with University College as Professors, Graduates, or otherwise (hear, hear) ; and that the appointment of these geiitlouiou has been ontinued year after year in unbroken succession for many yoar^. I know there ha3 been a lii^k of material. I am quite aware of a very strong desire in the Senate, as well as amongst the Examiners IheuiSolvijs, to eii'ect frecjatnt changes, were it possible. But, sir, the impossibiiity arJsei from the very aBsence of that affiliation which the evil itself postp )ne3 (hear, hear), and from a dejiarture from the London University system of written papers distributed to all the Colleges, a system aftbrding groat scope and freedom in the choice of Eximineis. (Hear, hear.) Following still furtlier the effect of direct control by one College, we shall find, til it, during the last three years, the University scholarships, amounting to soniethiiig like ^13,00[), found their way, I believe I am correct in saying, without tlie excejition of a single doli.'.r, iiitu the fockets of scholars of University '^olh^gr'. True, it nuiy be said that has resulted from the absence of the other Colleges — that had they entered under the Act of '53, they would liiivo shared in the Scholarships ; but, mark, if they had come in, they wo\ild, as 1 have just shown, have been under the control of a University College Stnate, which may possibly 'lave established a University College ptandard of examination, which h is certainly appointed 70 per cen\ of the Exi miners from Univtrsity College, and the result of all which has been an absolute monoiwly of all the University i cholarsliips by scholars of University College. (Hear, hear.) For all this, Mr. Speaker, the law rather than tho Univeraify or the College is to bo condemned; and it is our business and duty now so to amend the law as to correct these palpable evils by the adoption of some comprehensive scheme, as proposed by the resolution of t of the London ' to the adoption powers of that standard to suit the University it the powers of gstthe "alumni" (Hear, hear.) iast years. Sir, I venture to claim iharged with the tier the circum- if not the only, also, that that I to themselves. ><', 'C8, we find '> or seventy per ^e as Professors, itrnent of these 1 succession for ii'i quite aware the Examiners I^ut, sir, the •tion which the om the London leges, a system (Hear, hear.) lli^ge, we shall ips, amountinrts with the system prevailing in Fng- land and Ireland, look at the competition tlicre, look at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and London, and at the Queen'a University of Ire- land, with tlie groups of Colleges gathered around each, and where c ery College has its standard bearers who strive not more for personal distinctiLm than for the honor of their College, and then say whether this noble rivalry this honorable emulation is not the key and secret of the succesi that has been achieved. Why, then, should we not adopt a similar system, the sys- tem in fact aimed at by the Act of 'oC I And if the outlying Colleges were admitted or tempted, or if need be were coerced into afiiliation with the one, and but one, central University of Toronto who would sufler ? Surely not University College, for with her splendid endowment and the extraordinary advantages it secures to her, in a professorial staiT of the highest distinction and of most ample number ; in all the aids and appliances which wealth only can secure ; and in a home which even I may humbly venture to suggest is very fitting, (Clivers), she surely cannot fear the competition of afiiliation, for, unless I greatly overrate her powers, the afiiliation of the other CoUogee implies no danger but great addition to her prestige. And what other objec- tions could she have t Is her greed so gi-eat that she desires to h
ady to do battle with all com- ers, and to vindicate by her success in the Jcliools her title to a full share of University honors and rewards. To suppose it possible that she desires to tj, th THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 29 ig and sr, and all the is now all the ;ge and institu- ng as it ,ercd as iny but g to all LI y may :, heir.) and by ition for ug tlieae ice they II means, jntly bo [ChecTS.) r in Ing- ■sities of of Ire- re e- ery istinction i livaliT' that has the sys- jges were the one, u-cly not vordinary iatinction lalth only uiggest is ifliliation, CuUegee ler objec- ;)ld in an iwment of ;h all com- 8h:rt'0 of desires to liold to her own sole and exclusive uses the magnificent endowment of the University, participation in Avhich belongs of right and by law to " all the Colleges," is to suppose that the history of King's College has been written in vain, and that she, like her predecessor, prefers to die the death of the lellish and solitary suicide rather than to admit others to her companionship, (Cheers,) it is to suppose that she has no dread of the future which such in- justice would beget, no fear of that retributive justice which these impov- erished institutions might combine to deal out. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I warn honorable gentlemen opposite, and those amongst them to whom University College and the Toronto University are especially and so justly dear, to whom the honor of tliose institutions is so precious, and who in their own successes so amply illustrate it, I warn them to be careful that they do not by their illibcrality begot a unity of purpose amongst these outlying Colleges, well, amongst these sects if you prefer the expression, which instead of being as it now is an effort to promote the interests of liigher education throughout the country by separate aid from general sources, shall, as a la^t and desperate resource, seek support directly out of the University and College endowments. (Cheers.) A result so dire Avould command my entire regret. I contemijlate the bare possibility of it with the terror due to an unmixed evil, and let me most distinctly say it shall be free from any support of mine, (cheers) ; but such a proposition has been made before to-day, and may be made again. I would have lion, gentle, men look to it that by their action on the resolution of my hon. friend, they do not precipitate an issue that all true friends of a higher education, and of the University of Toronto, would lament and condemn. I clam, Mr. Speaker, that in the observations I have ventured to intrude upon the House, I have established two or three propositions. I claim to have establi.shed the fact that the Act of 1853 propu;icd to construct a system of Colleges affiliated with one central University ; that it professed to offer, and indeed to stci ra ti, those CoUe.jes a measure of support by the distributiim amongst them of a surpli^ revenue from the University Endowment ; iuch surplus being esti- mated in 1853 at $35,003 per annum. I claim too to have shown that when, in 135(>, that surplus failed, the L ogislaturo, recogni.dng the rcsponsibilitj to c:)mpeu3ate for that failure, declared by Statute that $20,000 a year should be appropriated to those Colleges ; and that such upprojjriations had been continued for twelve years, without opposition from any party in the country, without one single hostile vote over that long period ; and 1 say, that mider that co.idition of thing*, it was no less unwise than unjust to deprive them suddenly of that support, without any suggestion of compromise, or any effort to bring them into harmony Avith our secular system of public instruc- tion. Sir, no one ha^ c :)nto:id jd th during the 15 yeird of their recognition, these Colleges wore nr.-t doing gooa work ; work worth the money, (hear, hear), they sent out i:iany men who have subscriucntly occupied positions of f »j i T'l % !& I THE COLLKGE QUESTION. influence and hunor, and great usefula'3S4 in this Province ; and our ottu House bears testimony in some of its most valued moinbera to the excellence of their teaching and discipline. (Hear, hoar.) lam not in a position »t this moment to quote the iigures with ex'iot'iois ; but I ajn able to stite gen- er illy, and from infoi'matioii before me, thattliree of these Ctdleges have sent out more man, m )ro graduates, thin th'j on s^re.it contriil endowo I institu- tion ; and if a money value can be placed up;in such work, we should remem- ber that whilst those three Colleges have rociived aid to the extent of about $12,000 a year, the expenditure frouj the University endowment has amounted to upward of $45,000 a year. Speaking commercially, therefore, these Col- leges have been producing a larger qavatity of as good a commodity, but at a verv much cheaper rate than th.^ production of the University of Toronto, »u I although ther 3 mvy bo so >;j wai attribute spa^ivl va'u3 to a secular training, I apprehend there are nf>t a few of our fellow subjects who attach great importance and a higher value to religious teaching and disciidine, (hear, hear) ; and this brings us to c insider practically how it may bop-msible to bring these institutions into one gcn.'ral ssstem. Sir, t have already ventured to say that it is perfectly competent in ua to devise a scheme whi. h shall fuse the secular and sectarian principles in the future working of these Colleg ^s ; and that unless we do s'>, our great system of public in8^ruction will b:uncomplete ; ..actarianism willbeeiublttercd, intensified and perpetuated and thus the seed, scattered broadcast, which shall ultimately destroy our whole existing organization. And if 1 say that it is ])osfnorable friend and myself have Bi)«)ken very plainly. But, that there may be no mistake as to my objects, I am quite ready to take the House into my oulldotioe, and however great the impru- dence, to expose to it my own ptusonal »^iew as to how these changes may be brought about. In the matter of the Oommon and Grammar Schctolf, for instance, is not tlu? secular safetv which wo attribute to them — is not the liberality with which we deal «.vith thetn, and with which the people themselves deal with then, based upcm the a«curity given to them by ■tatut ry provinons? Is it impusible to do the same with those Colleges? is it imiiossilde t* surround them, to direct, guide and govern thom by Atatutjtry enactment, as part and p»arc('l of the same system — as the crowning THE COLLEGE QUESTION. .•31 3\\T ovra Lcellence aition »t ;vte gon- lave sent L institii- l remom- of about irnountod lieso Col- by, but at Tortjnto, !\ srtcula? rho attach liacii)line, >op'»n8»ble ,e alreidy emo will U ,g of tllCM inB'.ruction lorpetaateil entroy our nine? these m, and to t systom ia larjjjed with lan it d!\re8 p aectitiau ^ repudiate ition. The ean in what Hhtken very I am quite the inipru- nyes may be Sohoolfl, for I — in in it the tho people to them by ae Colleges? om them by the crown'ng of the same system to which the Grammar and Common Schools l)olonj,'f We liumbly think not ; we see no difficulty in legislating just as distinctly and rigidly, and to the same general results for tho sui»p«»rt and government of Colleges as for the support and government of Grammar Schools, an.l we fail to discover any reason for doubting that such legislation would be just as etFoctive in the one case as in tho other. (Hear, hear.) But, I am asked, how would I legislate ? Well, sir, I would provide that all future aid to to these Colleges should be conditional — and the conditions I would eiiff>rco might be somewhat of tho following character : — First, that no thcologicul tests should exist— that persons of all denominations should be admitted, and that the acceptance of any religious teaching or service shall bo wholly voluntary and optional with the students or their parents. Second, that public aid shall hi conditional ujion the suspension of University powers in the Faculties of Arts, Law and ]\Iediciiie — a full affiliation with tho centi-al University— the taking of all Degrees in Arts, Law and Medicine at ih:it Institution, and, a^ a consequence, tho adoption of one shandard and curri- culum by all the Colleges. Third, that whatever aid may be granted fr.)m the public exchequer shall bo wholly, and in each year, expended in su'iport of the Faculty of Arts, and for no other service whatever. And lastly, that the continuance of public aid shall depend up m tho Colleges respectivolv contiibuting a certain minimum nuuiber of gradu iting students Jictually admitted to Degrees by the University ; in other words, that the CollogeH shall do a certain amount of successful work in o'lch year, r>r forfeit the grant. Such conditions, I contend, Mr. Speaker, would secure tho affilia- tion of these Institiitions on a perfectly non-sectarian basis, and would secure all the advantages of one standard and of one cenfrd Univonity. But it has been urged, over and over again, that if aid be givpn t > «me of these Institutions it must be given to all ; and that, under such attraction, Colleges would be apt to crop up like mushroom**. (FTeir, hear.) Sir, tlie objection was a good one so long iis the grinds were mi.de unconditionally, but it loses all its force when you coino to dictate affilation, involving one Btimlvrd of ei iminvtion, a standard which in itself will oppimo an obstacle to all experimentalism, and make real work the measure of public aid. (Hear, hear.) But, if this be doubted, how easy it won Id be to dicti+e '•iich further conditions as might ba nocessiry to protect the public exchequer from xinduo assault. For instance, it miyht ha a condition pretedent to such aid that the College shouL^ be in possesftitm of suitable bnildin'4«, of cei al I extent and value, and frje from .all incumhrancj ; it mir/ht be a coi.di ion that tho College should po.-.seKS such a niiiiimum ent'.owment as would afford due assurance nf its stabi'ity nnd teaching power ; and, fin-lly. perhaps tho measure of public aid might in some degne be made to d''p"*td upon the measure of private endowment, applying the nam" prin ;ij»le to the Colleges as we have already ajtplied to the Common and Gran»m.ar Schooln, ■ li. m V J." r m -tM 32 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. for, m with them, the State contributos in exact proportion, dollar for dollar, a I ii provided from local sources by self-imposed taxation ; so, in reg.ird to the CoUuges, it might, within certain proscribed limits, grant aid in ex ict proportion, dollar for dollar, as is derivable from the particular endow- ment, or from other sources. (Hear, hetvr.) Hon. Mr. Wood. — Would you make that apply to the present Colleges T Mr. Cumberland. — Certainly, for no College should live on public aid alone ; nay, no College should receive public aid unless its own resources were such as to warrant State assistance ; and certainly if the State assists them it has a perfect right to say upon what conditions such assistance shall be given. If, however, their teaching is upon so low a standard, if their poverty is so great as to impair their usefulness, if their bigotry is so intense ivs t) reject the reasonable conditions essential to the interests of the public at large, then I for one would say "keep them out, it is their own doing." (Hjar, hear.) Such then, Mr. Speaker, is the scheme, or rather the general oatline of a scheme, by which I am disposed to believe that these Colleges m.vy be beneddal'y availed of in aid of the higher education of th« countiy, With )ut invasion of the noa-sectarian principle upon which our whole system h.u bean b-ised, and without unJixe pressure upon the public Exchequer, or any iacrjase to the grants whicli have been made to that obj ect during the Uit fu'taen years. Sir, I challenge honorable gentlemen to the argument, for m Xi im jalsj, or t'a3 t3mo>rary foroa of numbera will not settle this ques- tija, I ask them to recognise the great results that may be expected to flow {:Mn a wise com_>rehensive and liberal treatment of it. I invite them to consider how, by some such measure as I have ventured to indicate, the w!iole h'g'ier ed.icvtioa of tha Provinso now remitted to isolated and hostile hands and todiscordantinlu.mces, may be reduced to one harmonious system, subjeoted to one direction and control, and concentrated upo'a one great cen- tre— tlie U. live. "siy of Toronto a3 the one University for the whole Prov- inc 3. ( Haar, hear. ) An 1 what a University would tiiat then be. Gatharing in to horfo'.dallthe graJuatjsof all theCoUcgos, shcwonldbehonored, strengthened ant* protcctad by a body second in iiilhience to nona otlior in the country; and fusing an.l subJuing all the discordant elements of religions differences int ) one grand abiding place of learning and of roligicjus liberty ;r.id tolera- tijn, she wo.ild fuliil her misjion by giving to the country a siiccossion of men w!i) dluald miko h3r fa uin^ to all posterity. (Gheors.) And now, sir, I hiv.i done ; I have already ovorbaxed the patience of the House, an. I have to o.Ter my mistgi-atoful acknowledgements for the generous cunsidei-ation it h.i'i extended to nn. The importance of tlie question and the false issues wh.cihivo been raised upon it must be my exciisf. " It is, as I think, a q lo^lion which it would bj well for us to remove from the arena of party, from the off jto agitations of old party struggles ; pro;)er enough perhaps in L THE COLLEGE QUESTION. .liar for 80, in it aid in endoTf- loUegeB 1 blic aid csourceB e assists nco shall , if their intense lie public 1 doing." e general Colleges t countiy, )le system lequer, or uring the anient, for his ques- ed to flow them to icate, the md hostile lus system, great cen- lole Prov- loriug in to lengthened e country; differences iv.id tolcra- Hion of men low, sir, I 111 .1 have to idoration it false issues I tliink, a a of party, perhaps in their day when we had an outside partner to watch ; but worse than useless, stupid and almost wicked, now when we have no external joah^isies to excite us. (Hear, hear.) Lotus, then, justify the wisdom and liberality v.hich has given us separate Legislative powers, by the calnmess and moderation of our decisions, and in the interests of the country at large, let us unite in com- pleting that grand system of oducation which now only awaits the cap-stone of a College and University organization to make it wholly Avorthy of the pride with which wo are already disposed to regard it. (Loud cheers.) MR, BEATTY'S SPEECH. Mr. BEATTY said — When this question was under consideration last Session, and this House took tlie action they then took upon it, that, namely, of embodying in the Supply Bill a clause that no further aid should be given to collegiate institutions, it was expected that the Government would bring down some scheme which would supjily the place of the system which they had by that clause destroyed ; that they would have provided some national basis for higher education ; that they would have endeavored to extend the system whicli already exists, with regard to the lower branches of education, so that the youth, not of any particular locality, but of the entire countiy, might be enabled to share in the advantages to be derived from a liberal education. (Hear, hear.) It was understood, however, before the House met at its present Session, and clearly understood, after the speech was read from the throne, that there was to be no such policy brought down ; and the country immediately Avas agitated — petitions were ciruclated both for and against — and the country is now agitated upon this question. It is ill vain for us to shut our eyes to this fact. There is no doubt that a very serious agitation now exists in the country with regard to it, and I claim that it becomes the duty of this House seriously to look at this question. It be- comes our duty to give an earnest attention to the jjrayer of these petitions. It becomes our duty to consider this whole question, and see what ought to 3 U % 34 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. W: be done, in order to provide for the higher education of the youth of o\ir country, as woU as we provide for the common educiition. It is because no action had been taken in this direction, that the resolution, wliich wai lO ably moved, seconded, and supported this afternoon, has been brought in by my honorable friend from Grenville, in order to brinjg this matter before the House and the country, and that some action might be taken ; and it is for the same reason that 1 now support it. I think something ought t" be done. I believe that to leave the question in its present position — the State only giving support to one favored institution — is something the country will not submit to. And 1 believe that, when the scheme, which has been very ably presented to the House to-day, is fully and faii'ly presented to the coun- try, it will be found that the country will be prepared to accept that scheme. (Hear, hear.) A great deal of misapprehension exists with regard to this question, on account of its being mixed up so much with this cry of "no connection between Church and State," — a cry which has been put forth for the purpose of damaging the movement that is on foot. Now I cannot see what connection this has with the question of Church and State. If I under- stand the meaning of a connection between Churcli and State, it is the State giving aid to, and supporting the religion of a particular sect ; and I can see no analogy between that and the State giving aid for secular education, though that education may, to some extent, be under the management of some denomination. I think it will be found, when this question is fully under- stood, that the qucsti(jn of a connection between Cliurch and State has noth- ing at all to do with it. Then, too, the cry of sectarianism has been attempted to be raised, in order to damage this movement. Nor has this anything to do with the question at all. If Ave read the resolution, as put before the House to-day, we will see that it only proposes, in the interests of a national system of collegiate education, to extend the Act of 1853, in order that the Act may be more operative, and that it may meet the wants of the countrj with regard to higher education. And I am sure there is not an honorable gentleman here who would not be prepared to amend an Act, if he thought that Act should be amended ; or who would not be prepared to extend an Act, if he thought that, by extending it, the country would bo benefitted. This question has been very ably put before the House already, r ad I shall not, therefore, feel myself called upon to enter as largely into it as I might otherwise have done. We are called upon by this resolution merely to estalilish the position that a national system is necessary. With reference to the petiticms which have been presented to this House against Avhat are called the sectarian grants, I do not conceive for a moment that these petitions negative the position which we take in the House to-night. We are not asking for sectarian grants. (Cries of "Hear, hear.") I am not in favor of sectarian gi-ants, and, more than that, I have had great pleasure in presenting petitions myself THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 9t af o\ir use no AVaB BO tin by before nd it is it t" be 10 State try will en very le coun- scheme. I to this of "no orth for ,nnot see I under- the State I can see diication, t of some ly under- haa noth- has been ,r has this on, as put iterests of $, in order mts of the there is cpared to ; or who that, by , been very "eel myself ione. We iion that a ,vl\ich have n grants, I lie position )r sectarian riaii gi'ants, tions myself against these grants. Neither should I have any hesitation about signing these petitions. What do wo find in those petitions I We find them speaking of the broad principles on which Toronto University is founded. Now, what are the principle's (m which Toronto University is founded ? Are they not the principles of affiliation ? Are they not the principles that are embodied in the Act of 1853 I But it is well known that the Act of 1853 has been inoperative. It is well known that its prac- tical effect has not given satisfaction to the country. It is well known, that, when a commission was appointed — I think, in 18G2 — to enquire into it, having, in the course of a searching examination, addressed a series of leading (i\iestions to the Soniite of the Toronto University, that Senate declared that the Act had not been comitlied with, and that afliliation could not take place under it, and recommending, at the same time, a scheme very similar to tliat which wo now advocate. And there is a published letter of the very disiingiiished head of University College, endorsing the action and the sentiments of the Senate on that question. And will my honorable friends on the Troastiry benches, and will other honorable gentlemen in this House say that, Avhon aiithorities so high as these declare that this Act of 1853 (the University Act) has not met the wants of the country, and that no affiliation could take place under it, although such affiliation was intended to take place — will they say, in the face of facts like these, that they are not prepared to amend an Act, which, it must be apparent to every one, needs to be amended '. Tliat is the position of the question, as I understand it. (Hear, hear.) We simjily ask the H(nise, by this resolution, to adopt this national S3'::<^<'m. It does not commit the House to the details of any particular plan ; and it is desirable that lunun-able gentlemen should, in this debate, freely expross thoiv opinions on the (pie-^tion, tliat we may arrive at a con'cct conclusion in regard to it. We do not ask that honorable gentlemen should commit themselves to all the details of such a system, for details are not embodied in the resolution. It only commits us to the principle, and I am satisfied, whether the House now accepts the principle or not, that, finally, this House, or some otlier House, will accept it. The country is prepared for a really national system of education, from the Common School up to the University. (Hear, liear.) We have many Institutions in tliis country with University powers. These powers have been conferred upon them, and we cannot take them av/ay. It is our duty, as far as possible, to endeavor to give increased value to Canadian Degrees. If we cripple the Instituti(m3 which already exist having the power to confer such Degrees— if we ignore tlioiu altogether— if, in establisliing a national system, we say we are not prepared to receive them into it, although they may be willing to become part of a systcia that would be acceptable to the country — if we say, that .siuiply because thete Institutions have, or have had some connection with some denomination or otlier, we will not receive «-:-l 36 THE COLLKOE QUK9TI0N. t] ill them, then I say that is not noting up to tho spirit or the intontions of the Act of 185U. (Hear, liear.) I my that, if wo are to liavo a national syHtoni, we rnuBt have other infititutions besiilos University College in connection with it. I claim that one College is not sutticient to meet tho wants of tho people of this country. 1 claim that a country of siich extent as tluH ; a country with such vast resources ; a country now rapidly rising to wealth and impor- tance, will not bo satisfied with one College to educate all its young men. It would be u threat injustice to say that all the young men of thib country, desiring a University oducati(jn, should be obliged to come up to tho city of Toronto, or to any one given central point, for that education. It would be ■unfair to expect that they should do so. By insisting on this, wo would very greatly lessen tho number of those who wcmld attain to University degrees. But it may be that some will say — So much the better for the country. It may bo that some will be prepared to say — All we need to do is to give our youth a common school education, and let those who desire a higher education, take caro of themselves. But that does not show the real state of the case. Lot us confine higher education to ono city, as is proposed, by tho withdrawal of assistance from other Collegiate Institutions, or by not permitting other Institutions to become affiliated with tho Central University, and what, then, will bo tho effect i The citizens of Toronto would then hare an advantage over tho rest of tho country. They would have at their doors an Institution established by the State, ami enriched by a splendid endowment, not only attracting young men from a distance, but giving them superior advantages at homo, and they certainly, in that respect, would have tho advantage over other portions of the coiuitry. But, 'f we support Gollogicate Institutions in different sections of the country, ther* 'U be, in each case, a circle of warm friends to rally round such Institv, tions, and a larger number of young men would be educated in the higlior branches than if we centralize the higher education in any one place, or have only one Collegiate Institution. I am satisfied this House is not prepared to say that it is sufficient for us to give encouragement only to C\)iuuion School education. 1 am satisfied the intelligence of this country is nut prepared to adopt such a position. We have handsomely aided the Common Schools of the country, and we have reason to be proud of our Common School system. The Canadian can point, with a great deal of satisfaction and jjride, to the fact that we have in Canada one of the best — if not the very best — Common School system in the world. But, while we are proud of this, let us not stop there. While we are prepared to extend to all, through the whole length and breadth of the land, the advantages of a Commiju School educa- tion, let us, also, extend to the young men of our country avIio are aspiring to rise to the higher attainments in literature, science and art, the necessary facilities for that purpose, without obliging them to come to a large city, -where the expense of living is greater, and against which there may be ;. THE C'OLLKOK Ql'ESTIoK. 37 japeot, f we . -u ;ion8, ivnchea only to say School lied to Is of astern. ;o the )miuon us not whole educa- apiring ceasary e city, lay he prejudices oxiHting— T do not nay whether well or ill-fonndod— anumg those wl live in the country. Let its not cdutpel those who desire to receive a Collegiate training to come to Toronto for tliat jua'pose if they do not choose to do BO. I d(» not say how many of thcHo Colleges ought to be sustained ; let that he decided by the circuniHtances of the cf>untry. The principle of the resohition in, that more Institutions than one are needed. It will soon be determined how many the country recpiire. The fact that these Institutions will have to bo partially endowed by their friends, and partially self-support- ing, will operate as a check on their improi)or nniltiplication. It will bo an easy matter to limit or extend the number. Wo are not committed to a certain sum of money for the sustenance of these Colleges. But I think thei'o cannot bo a doubt that it is manifestly nnfair that the whole higher education should be monopolized by one Institution. (Hear, hear.) The question, then, that arises is this : what system would bo the 1)est to meet the want that exists for a sufticient number of well ecjuipped Collegiate Instituticms i Shall we take the Institutions that now exist, or shall we create others ? It is true, there is a ditlerenco of opinion about this. Some will say, take the Institutions which now exist. Others will say, establish new ones, and have nothing to do with those which have existed for years, and wliich have done a valuable work in the etmntry ; commence anew ; erect magnificent buildings, endow professorships handsomely, and establish other Institutions on an expensive scale, similar to that established in the City of Toronto, Now, in i;ho first place, on the grc)und of justice to the Institutions which now exist, I claim that it would not be right to ignore them, unless they refused to oecome part of the national system, to surrender their right to crmfer Degrees in Arts, to adopt the common curriculum, and to submit their students to the examinations of the National University. If they are prepared to submit to all this, I see no reason why they should not be received as part of the natitmal system ; I see no good reason why we should ignore Institutions which have stood the heat and burden of the day — Institutions which, endowed by private liberality, gave our youth the benefits of a Collegiate education, when there were no others that could meet the wants of the country — Institutions which have gone on doing this, and have held their ground for more than a cpiarter of a century ; I say, I sne no reason why, to gratify a mere prejudice, these Institutions should be allowed to die — at least, so far as Government aid is concerned — and other new ones built up on an expensive scale, similar to that in the City of Toronto. It may, perhaps, throw some light on th« subject if I read a statement of the endowment of the University of Toronto. It was, in the first instance, endowed with 226,000 acres of valuable land. In 1861, according to a return made in that year, this had produced 31,398,903, and it was estimated that there remained unsold property of the value of ^167,049— making a total endowment of a little more than a million and a ■ h ■Al 38 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. /■J5|i, half of dolla»T3. Now, it becomes this House to consider — whether they consider it under this resolution or not — what value we have got for thia .uillion and a half of endowment. And it becomes lis to consider, also, whether, in establishing other Institutions on the same basis, at least as far as expenditure is concerned, we would be acting wisely — or whether W9 would not serve better the interests of the country, by bringing those Insti- tutions that are already established into the national system, and utilizing them in that way, we could not, on a cheaper scale, give the countiy all the advantag-^s which might, perhaps, be received from a more expensive system. From the returns brought down last year to this House, with reference to the University endowment, we learn that the ex- penditure has exceeded the income, so as to leave the Fund in lebt to the amount of $70,000. But, suppose we only allow the •-•jnount limited by the statute, $45,000 per annum, and if we sup- pose this House is prepared to establish other institutions through the coun- tiy on the same expensive system, I would ask, where will this end ? I would rather ask, wiU there be a begimiing at all ? Can we expect that this Gov- ernment, or any other Government, would be prepared to bring down a scheme so expensive as this would be ? But something the}' mtist do. They cannot expect that the country will be content that no scheme at all shall be brought down ; that the position should remain as it is, as has been hinted in certain quarters, that one institution alone should have the monopoly of higher education in this country. I do not refer to these figures with any idea of hostility to the University of Toronto. I do not desire to see it weakened. I would desire to see it strengthened and remodeled, and I believe that the effect of the affiliation of other institutions would be to strengthen rather than to weaken. If other institutions were brought into affiliation with the National University, would not the effect be to stimulate the activity of Unversity College ? Would not a wholesome rivalry be produced, which would have the effect of elevating the standard of scholarship i Would not the stu- dents of the various colleges, coming to submit to the same examinations, engage ia a generous competition, in order that their respective colleges might rival ea.'h other, and stand high on the examination list / The effect undoubtedly \. 'uld be, instead of lowering, to raise the standard of educa- tion. The effect would be to give a stimulus to the young men of our coun- try, and to urge them to the attainment of a higher standard, in relation to those studies in which they are engaged. These institutions, sometimes called "the outlying colleges," as I before intimated, have already University powers. We cannot deprive them of those powers — at least not very easily, and not very justly. They now confer degrees and will continue to confer degrees. We lessen the value of these degrees, if we weaken those institu- tions — although, I believe as regards some of them, they cannot be perma- nently weakened by the action of this House — I believe some of them may THE COLLEGE QUESTION. they r this also, as far er w« Insti- ilizing all the ensive louse, he ex- nd in ,w the e sup- e coun- [ would is Gov- down a They shall be inted in bpoly of any idea akened. that the 1 rather with th« tivity of ch would ; the stu- inations, colleges 'he eifect of educa- )ur coun- jlation to [>metimes University ry easily, to confer ie institu- )e perma- them may be able, by their friends rallying around them, not only to live, but to live efficiently. But that is not the question. If we can make them national, and thereby add increased value to our Ciinadian University degrees, are we doing a patriotic work, and promoting the interests of our whole country ? We know that those who receive those degrees become the leading men of our country — many of them at least. They enter into all the professions ; for degrees are not only given in arts, but in law and medicine, and when those who receive them go forth to practice, both the lives and property of the community are, to a certain extent placed in their hands. And I say it becomes the d\ity of this House to consider well the great importance of the trust which is placed in the hands of these Universities ; and, if it is possible for us to give greater efficiency to those colleges, and to bring their course of study, as also that of the National College, up to a higher standard, I claim that we would be doing a public benefit. (Hear, hear.) It is said that some of these institutions are sectarian, and that because they are such, they cannot be received into the national system. I fail, however, to see, that because they have been endowed and fostered by one religious denomination or another, that is any reason why the State may not take them up and make them part of a system which shall be . purely and properly national. The fact has been referred to in this debate that King's College was a sectarian institution, and that the Legislature, by an Act of Parliament, made it secu- lar. And althougli many of the cort, mider proper restrictions, secxilar education, even though that secular education might be to some extent under denominational control. We believe there can be no good groiind of objection to this. Again, if we look at the collegiate institutions of the old world, Ave will find that this prejudice does not exist with respect to them — that not only do numer- ous institutions exist ; that not only is there no attempt to centralize in one place all the learning of any one of the countries, but that there is a distri- butive system. We see London University, with its 50, or thereabouts, of affiliated institutions in different parts of the country — Oxford with 21 Col- leges ; and Cambridge with 17 ; the University of France, Avith numerous Colleges scattered all over the country ; and in Switzerland, a College in every canton. In none of those countries is the idea entertained of central- izing in one place all the higher education of the land. And many of these institutions are either partially or entirely under denominational control. They are aided as secular institutions doing a secular Avork, affording a sec\i- lar education — it being held that, as sucli, they are entitled to receive from the State a certain portion of State assistance. In this country I do not say that it is necessary for us to go even that far. We need not lay down a I)rinciple so unrestricted as that. We may say that Ave Avill not give State aid to institutions that Avill not be under State control. But even then I see no reason Avhy we should ignore the colleges already existing in tha country. I am not authorized to speak for them, but I do not knoAV but some scheme might be devised Avhich might be acceptable to those institu- tions, and Avhich at the same time might meet the necessities of the country. I think it is possible that some scheme might be devised. by a remodelling of the constitutions of the Boards of these Colleges, Avhich Avould vemoA-e any objection that may noAV exist, and which Avould give us the benefit of the standing already attained by these institutions, and at the same time give us the benefit of having them in difierent parts of the country. The value of the Avork that has been done by these colleges is uoav admitted. It has ^t m m \ ,1 m 42 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. been referred to already very ably in this debate ; the public i)resa has not failed to recognize it, and the country has not failed to recognize it. All over the land there are now those in the different professions, and in the various walks of commerce and industry, who have been sent out by them, and who, by the verdict of the country, are valuable members of Society, and who would not have been in a position to take the place they do but for these institutions, I believe then the country is prepared to accept the state- ment that these colleges have yielded results of the highest value, and with but little cost to the State. There is scarcely an hon. gentleman here who would for a momant detract from them, or be unwilling to admit that they have rendered good service to the cause of education. (Hear, hear.) And if this be the case, 1 see no reason why we should place them in a position which might in any respect weaken their efticiency, or render them less able to afford a thorough course of training to the young men placed under their care. We need not do it, even for the sake of making a show of consistency with respect to old principles. I say there is no old j^rinciple invf)lved in it. It may be said that it is part of the Reform platform to do away with denominational grants. But Ave find that for many y^ars these institutions have been sui^ported by men of all j^olitical creeds, and we do not find that there has been any serious movement to oppose their getting the assistance they have received — not, perhaps, becaiise it was the best v/ay to give it, but because they were doing a public good. They were educating the young men of the country, and as such the Legislature considered they were entitled to have that sv.pport. It may be, that it might have been given better in another way. Some of these institutions themselves asked affiliation on pro- per terms. They were not satisfied with the system of grants. They telt it was humiliating for them to have to come session after session and ask, as a boon, what they should have been considered entitled to, as giving full value for it. I know, ho waver, that there are some who look at this question from a different point of view. Nc; matter how much yoii may nationalize these colleges ; no matter how much you may strip them of their supposed or re' ' sectarianism, you cannot in the eyes of some, wash them from the supposed contamination in which tlieir connection with denominations is supposed to have involved them. I do not conceive such a position is reasonable or statesmanlike. If we need institutions of higher learning ; if we desire to tread in the footsteps of older and more 'Ilustricjus countries ; if we desire to extend the advantages of higher education, let us endeavour to lay aside what may be our prejudices. Let us be patriotic if we can, and let us endea- vour to establish a system, which, though we may not be able to perfect now, will yet be the foundation of a system that will grow with our growth, and Btrengthen with our strength. (Hear, hear.) If we exclude these colleges from our national system of higher education, I do not say they will all die. I believe some of them will live, and very efticiently too ; but they will not THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 48 laa not ;. All in the • them, •ociety, but for e atate- ud with ere who lat they .) And position 13 able to leir care, ncy with n it. It vay with stituticns find that assistance ive it, but oung men ntitled to better in on on pro- hey telt it I ask, as a full value gstion from lalizo these jaed or re' ' le supposed supposed to asonable or ve desire to we desire to to lay aside et us endea- perf ect now, growth, and hese colleges will all die. they will not live as part of the national system : they will become more intensely sectar- iwi, by being obliged to apply more peculiarly to those who belong to their •wn particular church for siipport. If they are obliged to resort to that, by being driven away from the national system, the effect will be to make them more sectarian, instead of less. But if they are willing to be received as part of the national system ; if the constitution of their Boards be re-organized ; if they are striped altogether of what may be called sectarianism, I do n«t .see why in that case we should not receive them, ' -istead of having scattered over the countiy a number of sectarian colleges, as they mast be in fact at ' well as in name. I do not see why now, as we are about remodelling our educational system — as we are now about, as I understand, to have a respon- sible Minister of Education — and as we find Bills introduced for a change in the law with regard to medicine and surgery — I do not see why we may not com- mence here ; why we may not commence with the Arts Department, and let th© same principle be applied through all the departments of higher education. I should like to see a complete system, which should embrace the whole circle of arts, law, and medicine — a system comprehensive in its character, Avhich, commencing with the Common and Grami ..'. Schools, and proceeding up to the University, would include all the institutions, which prepared our young men for the varioiis professions and positions in life. I should like to see such a system, under a management responsible to this House and to the coimtry. "Were this realized — and if these institutions were placed under such a system, it must be very clear that every disadvantage — at least so far as any practical result is concerned — of what may appear so very obnoxious to some, namely, the denominationalism of these colleges, would certainly be removed. I believe the country is prepared for the adoption of this national system. I believe the country will demand something of this kind, and that it will yet be granted, whatever may be the present decision of the House. I do not assert that the country is now in favor of the grants as they were formerly given. I am not myself in favor of them, because I believe a better system can be devised. It is the duty of the Administration to take tliis ques- tion up, and deal with it as its importance demands. I believe the country will require this at their hands, for I have not the least doubt but that when this question is tuUy understood by the people, free from those prejudices which now to some extent surround it, there will be a general demand for equal justice to all our educational institutions, and an unmistakable oppo- sition to monopoly. Let not narrow prejudices stand in the way of national education, but now as w^e have already laid the foundation of an excellent system of Common School education, let us also lay the foundation of a sys- tem of University education, which shall be general, permanent, and truly national in its character. '4' ■1^ 44 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. MR RYKERT'S SPEECH. I3 ' Mr. RYKEPiT sai.l — In entering upon the discussion of this question, I start from the principle that, ao mats.er what position a man occupies in life, he is entitled to education. I hold it to be the first duty of the representa- tives of the peoi>le, to see that the intellectual resources of the country are fully developed. The Legislature, in imdertaking this duty, has taken a step in the right direction. It has already shewn its determination, that the education of the people shall be advanced to the utmost possible extent. At the present time, we have a Common School system, the like of which is not to be found in any other country ; and Ave have already experienced the ben- efits which that system has conferred on the people of this country. It has given educational advantages to the remotest corners of our land, the fniits of which are daily to be seen. Then we have a Grammar School system, ■vrhich, if not so flourishing as it might be ; yet, if properly carried out, must help the education of the country to a great extent We have, too. Upper Canada College, against which a violent crusade has been directed this session, which has yielded incalculable benefits, having sent out into the world many men who are the brightest ornaments in the country. Then we have our King's College, now University College, and the University ; and I am sure no one will deny that these institutions have brilliant representatives all through the world, holding a high rank in arts, literature, medicine, and jurisprudence — men whose i)osition is a testimony to native genius, and who have done credit to the halls in which they were educated. In science, too, and in arms, we have representatives who do credit to this country, and who are a living example of the good the institutions are doing for the country. And I say it is UTi'air for the lion, gentlemen to cry out against University College or Upper Canad i College, when they see what work these institu- tions have done. I hope this cry against Toronto centralizing everything will I'eceive no favor at the hands of this House. I mj-^self, educated in To- ronto, though not a native of the place, can bear my humble testimony to the benefits those institutions have conferred on the ijeopie qf this country ; and I am willing to leave it to the people to say whether those in Toronto have not conferred a Provincial education on our youth. Take Upper Canada College THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 4* aestion, 1 les in life, epresenta- nmtry aro 1,3 taken a 1, that the s.tent. At hich is not id the hen- ry. It has , the fruits ool system, L out, must too, Upper this session, w^orld many e have our d I am sure entatives all edicine, and us, and who science, too, ;ry, and who the country. 3t University hese institu- g everything ucated in To- timony to the )untry ; and I onto have not lanada College for example. In years g(me by, what proportion of its students were from Toronto ? In my own day, out of 200 pupils, not more than 25 or 30 wore from Toronto. It was not an institution giving merely a local advantage, but was attended by youth from one end of the country to the other ; nay, from one end of the world to the other. And can you call that a local insti- tution, whose advantages are so wide-apread, and Avhich has sent forth men who are an ornament to the whole country ? It matters not from v/hat town, or from what particular locality they came, in consequence of the education' thev have [received here, they have done credit to themselves and to the country. Hon. gentlemen say that the press of Toronto is united in sup- port of these colleges in Toronto, and against the denominational colleges. If this be so, they have the sentiments expressed by them echoed from one end of the country to the other. (Heai", hear.) Wherever you go, even into the remotest corners of the land, you find the people, as a unit, opposed to sectarian institutions and denominational colleges. (Cheers.) I can myself with some degree of grace, enforce this view on the House. In 1800, this was the test question at the election in the County of Lincoln. One branch of the Methodists at that'time were rampant to pull down University College, and to have the surplus fimds divided among all denominations. The ground I took at that election, was that wo were not prepared to divide our Univer- sity fund among all religious denominations, according to numbers, and the view I took was iipheld by my constituents. I can, therefore, with some consistency uphold to-night the ground I tlien assumed, and which helped to place me in the old Legislature of Canada. As regards the press of this, country denouncing the denominational colleges, I feel fully satisfied with the result of their work. What do we see here tf) night ? Instead of hon. gentlemen coming here to ask for sectarian grants, we find them asking the House to do what ? To entertain a proposition f(jr the affiliation of these colleges with Toronto University ! I wo\ild put more faith in their making such a proposition, and would give more attention to the position they assume to-night, were I not aware that the country had been flooded from one end to the other with petitions ; not asking for an afliliation of these colleges with Toronto University ; not asking this House to withhold grants ,rom denominational colleges ; but asking that these gi-ants should be renewed. And I beg to say that I hold the Government as somewhat responsible for those petitions. In their over-delicacy last session— and I distinctly charged it upon them— insteiul of coming out and saying that they would not give money for denominational c(.)lleges, they said they were not in favor of grant- ing aid to superior education. And we see what use has been made of this. Hon. Mr. WOOD— When did the (Jovernment say that I Mr. RYKERT— At page 31 of the Public Accounts, for which the Trea- surer is especially responsible, I find the words—" Aid to superior educa- tm I , 46 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. U'. tion," with reference to these denominational grants. (Hear, hear and laughter.) I would rather that the Government had distinctly said — "We are giving aid to those denominational colleges for the last time." Hon. Mr. WOOD — So we did say in the statute-book. Mr. RYKERT — Wliat I say is, that the gentlemen who have got up these petitions, finding the expression, "aid to superior education" in the estimates, have taken it and placed ;t in their petitions. Now let us see what they ask for. They represent — " That for many years it has been part of the policy of the Government of this country to foster, by pecuniary assistance, the important cause of super- for education." And what do they mean by that ? They mean sectarian colleges, denom- inational colleges. They go on to say — " Wherefore your petitioners earnestly pray that during the present session, steps may be taken by your honourable House towards making a liberal and permanent provision in the aid of the distributive system of superior educa- tion." That is by gi-anting aid to collegiate institutions. Tliey went about the work in a very specious way. They asked people to sign a petition in favor of superior education, and of course scarcely any one could refuse to sign such a petition. But under the cloak of praying for aid to superior educa- tion, they ask for a continuance of these grants. I say they oiiglit to have come before this House, and said distinctly at once — "We ask for those grants." It is not fair to put a resolution before the House, the real object of which, under the pretence of affiliating these colleges with Torcmto Uni- versity, is to stab Toronto University, and to get from the Government what share thcj" could of its endowment. The hon. gentleman who introduced this resolution, I admit, has introduced it in his usual temperate and moder- ate manner. But the resolution previously introduced by the hon. gentle- man, throws as nuich light on the matter as the hon. gentleman's speech. A short time ago, the hon. member for Grenville placed this Resolution before the House. IJ " That in the opinion of this House, it is expedient and necessarj- for the promotion of science, literature and art, that the collegiate instititutions of Ontario should continue to receive substantial aid and support from the Treasury of the Province. " And he accompanied this with Resolution No. 2 : — " That an humble Address be presented to His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor, praying that he be graciously pleased to give effect to the forego- ing Resolution." ^i THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 47 tar and _«'\Ve up these in the t us see [\ment of of super- i, deiioni- [it session, iberal and ior educa- about the m in favoi- se to sign rior ediica- ^iht to have for those real (jbject )ronto Uni- iiuent what introduced and nioder- lon. gentle- speech. A ution before ssary for the ititutions of rt from the i Lieutenant- the forego- Notice was given of these Resolutions by the hon. member for South Gren- ville, whether directly in the inteicst of those who favor sectarian grants, I am not prepared to say. But, after ascertaining what was the tone of the House, he comes down with another Resohition — that which is now before us for debate — " That in the opinion of this Hoiise it is necessaiy and expedient, in the interest of collegiate education, that some comprehensive scheme be devise*! and adopted for L'iving eti'ect to the objects, and for extending the operation of the Act 16 V' , chap. 89, in the establishment of a Provincial University, and the attiliat a of colleges to be suj^ported in connection therewitli Now what prompted that Resolution 1 Was it simply a desire on tlie jiart of the hon. gentleman, to benefit our educational institutions i Was it simply a desire on his part t»j further and advance the interests of those institutions, which heretofore had been of a sectarian character, and which we hear to-night from the mouths of hon. gentlemen Avhohave spoken in this debate, are now prepared to forego all the pi'ivileges they now enjoy as sec- tarian institutions >. But, if these Colleges are prepared to affiliate with Toronto University, why have they not come here with a petition, saying — "We are prepared to forego our jjowers of conferring degrees, to accept affil- iation with Toronto University, and to put ourselves at the mercy of the House V If they had taken this course ; if, instead of having our lobbies overfloAvcd with clerical gentlemen asking aid for these colleges ; if, instead of having the country flooded with petitions asking aid for these colleges, the movement being instigated by (me denomination alone ; if, instead of this, they had come and said — "We are prepared to give up the power of confeiring degrees, and to affiliate with Toronto University," they would have been in a better position. And what did they now ask the House to do ? To devise roine scheme by which other colleges may affiliate Avith Toronto University I Have you heard an hon. gentleman to-night advance a word in favor of afhliating ?3 all'«ad it ; but it v/o;ild bo tliouyht unjust tli.it Institutions ei liaiiug tn bo iiational slioxild Ite administered in th« intcrei-'t of a single sectiun of tlio uatioa." We V.vt the German Mennonist — an important class in my county and in other counties — an ecjiuil right to share in the benefits of that fund I That money was not set aside, or a permanent fund constituted for denominational colleges. It was a fund placed in the hands of the Government for the advancement of higher educati(jn, and the Government are responsible for its proper distribution. I am opposed to giving public money to these sectarian institutions. I am opi)osed to giving money to these denominational colleges. I am opposed to granting aid to any institution whose mcanagament is under the control of any particular denomination. It may be true that they do a large amount of secular work, but the fact stares us in the face that their administration is in the hands of a sect — that their executive department is preoided over by men belonging to a particular denomination. They do not come here to tell us that they are prepared to give the Government power and control over tlxeir Univei*- sity. If they came to us with this proposition — " We will give the Govern- ment a controlling authority, the power to come into the institution and say what work shall be, done'in it, the power to see that its cuniculum is a pro- per one ;" if they did this, they would have a better standing in the House. But they do nothing of the sort. I come now to the arguments advanced by the honorable member for Algoma, (Mr. Cumberland). I listened, as I usually do, with a great deal of pleasure to the remarks which fell from that honorr\ble gentleman. His remarks on any subject that comes before the TUK «.:()LM:(iK (^UKSTION. .U to say l^ut, I II) miin ovou if hilt tlio moil ivro !" Tho lion tlio oraatinii 10 polls, loudest Liid, yet, it. Let Act! It tlic end me, ahixW ailiaiiient ■a I Have ■t for their k( )ui8t — an it t(j sliare ponuanent vccd ill the 11, and the opposed to d to giving iting aid to yr particular cular work, he hands of n belonging lis that they leir Univer- the Goveni- tion and say uni is a pro- 1 the House, advanced by iatened, as I ell from that es before the HotiHo, uro alwayH inHtnictivo, mid oft< nor aumsing. Ihit when the honor- able geiiMcMimii Hat down, 1 was at a l atleman said last ses- sion. He Avill not dispute tin; accuracy of the report, for it is that of his own organ, the Lcrnhf : — " He rejoiced that the (Jovennaont haroposition o{ having one national Univer- sity. I am Lii favor of having one University in this country for conferring degrees. And, if honorable gentlemen are so niuch afraid of the name of Toronto University, I do not object to its being called the University of Ontario. So fiir 1.4 the pros]>erity and welfare (jf this country are concerned, and so far as the intcreritf) of the education of its youth are C(jncorned, it luattci's not that the name of Toronto University be retained, though, from old associa- tion?, I might myself prefer the name of Toronto University to tliat of the University vi Ontario. But, lot us have one great central Institution for conft;rring dcgj'ces. Let us not have these Iniititutions, with the po^rer of conferring degrees, all over the couutry— Institutions whose standard of education has been pronounced to be low. Let our young men be in a positina to get a degree ^\liich will be a passport t:> carry them thi-ough the world. Let the petjple of this country, and people abroad, know that we have a University on raich a basis, that its degrees will be a guarantee to the world that the man who receiver it is v.ell educated. We have already, in diff' vent p.-.rts of England, men who have gone from Toronto University, and who, in England, have taken the highest scholastic honors. A short thue ago, a poor boy from the County of Monck, who had r.pent just one year at Toronto University, carried off from the Londt.-n University the THE COLLEGE QUESTION, 53 ions are 3 gentle- mpasa, a claim on 'V I have L friend's Q man at ily makes g ; but I le conclu- aoiit, and people of assertion sed to the anced last itry to tlie lilting the e question mtry ns to tlie pciople L-n v.'lio ex- sed in this )y the hon- iial XJniver- couforring he name of /of Ontario. 1. ;ind so far mattera not old uBsocia- that of the Ktitiition iov lie power of standard of men bo in a through the now that we rantee to the J already, in 3 University, >r3. A short pent just one Jniversity the highest scholarship awarded to students from the Colonies. And when we find persons like that coming from the rural districts to Toronto University — for it is to his training at Toronto University that that young man is in- debted for tlie position he now occupies — I say, it is well for us to see that that University is maintained in a position of efficiency, in which it Avill be the pride, glory and boast of every Canadian. It should be the interest of every true Canadiiin, no matter what his creed, nationality, or colour, to raise the standard of education. Let us see, then, that our youth,* to what- ever part of the country they belong, have facilities for education. Let us carry forward our Common School system — let us place our Grammar Schools on a proper basis — and, if it is necessary to have these other Colleges affiliated, let us take from them their denominational character and j)0wer of con.' vring degrees, and then affiliate them. (Hear, hoar.) I say that the honorable gentlemen who are supporting this resolution come here on false pretences. (Cries of "No! no!") They say they come here backed up by petitions signed by 18,000 persons — praying, forsooth, for "aid to superior education." But what 'T the petitions on tlie other side i In my o'vvn County, 120 have asked aid for sectarian education, and 5G0 have petitioned against it — Jind this out of a population of 37,000. I sivy the voice of the country is clearly against granting aid to these sectarian Institutions. When the system of Confederation was introduced, we fondly hojied that all these old causes of dispute and strife were at an end — that the old cries, which drove many good men from office, and enabled many bad men to get in, had for ever disappeared. But, I tell these honorable gentlemen, that, if they press their claims for denominational Colleges, the result will be a hue and cry from one end of the country to the other, which will most signally defeat the object they have in view. In order that the House may meet the question fairly and squarely, I now move, in amendment to the resolution : — "That all tlie Avords after 'That,' in the original resolution, be struck out, and tlie following be inserted in lieu thereof : While tiie House recog- nizes the imp<>rtaiice of educational interests, it is still of the opinion (as expressed by the Act of last session), that no College or Educational Institution linder the control of any religious denonunation, should receive aid from the Public Treasury." Seconded by Mr. SECORD. . Mr. CLAUKE— Before that amendment is put, I beg to raise a point of order. I believe it is a rule of this House that the subject-matter of any amendment sliould bear a distinct relation to tlie orighial resolution. In my resolution there is not a solitary word abuut denominational Colleges . and the honorable gentleman proposes to strike out the whole of my resolu- tion, and to substitute something about denominational Colleges, which is totally foreign to the subject-matter of my resolution. I ask the opinion of the Speaker oji tlio point. The honorable gentleuian wishes to raise a false ■•.w'l ml m ml •ml m 54 THErCOLLEGE QUESTION. f. issue. I distinctly stated, and* the seconder of the resolution, and my honorable friends who followed him, also most distinctly stated, that we were not in favor of grants to denominational Colleges. And the honorable gentleman seeks to evade the issue I raised by withdrawing from the consideration of the House my resolution, and substituting one not at all germane to it. Mr. BLAKE read a i^assage fronv May's "Parliamentary Practice," page 181, to show, that, according to the practice of the House of Connnons, this amendment to the resolution before the Chair would be considered in order. Hon. Mr. CAMERON — I think the amendment is relevant to the question brought before the House by the resolution. We know, as a matter of fact, that we have only one national Provincial University, and that the other Institutions are denominational Colleges. The resolution speaks of a Pro- vincial University, "and the afliliation of Colleges to be supported in connection therewith." Now, it is surely germane to that, to say, as the amendment does, that no aid shall be granted to denominational Colleges. Mr. CLARKE — My answer to that is this. If it is the object of the honorable member for Lincoln to obtain that declaration from the House; he should not move to strike out the entire language of my resolution, but should move something to be apjiended to my resolution, instead of with- drawing from the consideration of the House the subject I have brought before it. If his amendment were broxight wp in the form of a distinct resolution, perhaps I myself, and others of ni} friends, liiight vote for it — but, when he proposes in his amendment to strike out the whole of my resolution, we cannot vote for it. Mr. BLAKE — I rise to order. The discussion should bo confined to the point of order, without impugning the motives of the honorable member for Lincoln. Mr. CLARKE repctaed that the proper course would be for the honoiable gentleman to propose the amendment as words to be added to his (Mr. Clarke's) resolution, and not to strike out the language of that resolution. Mr. McKELLAR — Will the honorable gentleman be kind enough to give us his authority for that view — we do not lind it here (pointing to IMay.) Mr. CLARKE— Have you hiokod for it ,' (Laughter.) Mr. McKELLAR— Yes. Mr. SPEAKER then decided as follows ; — The amendment is, I think, in order, and ought to bo received. THE COLLEGE QUESTION. OO Mr. SECORD seconded the amendment. He said the people of Canada desired nothing in the shape of Church and State. They were opposed to it. In his constituency they were unanimously against sectarian grants, and, for that reason, he would second the amendment. MR. COYNE'S SPEECH. Mr. COYNE said — In rising to address the House on this question, I feel that in one sense I might go a certain distance with both propositions — with the original motion and with the amendment. Allow me to say at the out- set that I think the mover of the amendment might very well have spared at any rate the indulging in some remarks of an uncalled-for character — I mean his allusions to certain clerical gentlemen v/^hom he pictured out as being found in the lobbies of this House. Though in heart at sympathy to a great extent with the honorable gentleman, and as regards the question before the House, I regret that he should have made the remarks to which I am now alluding. I regret exceedingly that remarks of that kind should fall from the lips of any honorable member. I have yet to learn that it is not the privilege and the right of every subject of Her Majestj' to visit this House at all seasonable times during its discussions and debates. If any weight were to be attached to the honorable gentleman's remarks, I suppose gentlemen woiild have to be very careful hereafter about visiting the House with white chokers on. Mr. RYKERT— Hear ! Hear ! Mr. COYNE— The honorable gentleman cries "hear, hear." I do not Know whether his constituents will endorse his courae, in speaking in a man- ner calculated to wound the Christian feelings of the people of this country. 1 should regret exceedingly that a constituency Svj important, or that any i 66 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. constituency in this countiy should be found endorsing the tone of I'eniarks of a sarcastic nature, and with a tendency to infidelity itself, which had been indulged in, not only by the mover, but by the seconder of the aiuenduient. Mr. RYKERT — My constituents haA'e elected lue tv/ice by acclamation. Mr. COYNE — And I recollect an occasion on which the honoraljle gentle- man did not return to his seat by acclamation ; and when the honorable gen- tleman plumes himself on his honors, I feel free to remind him of thc-it occa- sion — although he may now enjoy a seat in this House, having conveniently changed his opinions since the time when he was succeeded in that constitii- ency by another honorable gentleman. (Hear, hear.) I speak thus Avarmly with reference to the honorable gentleman's lemaiks, because I feel warmly with reference to the subject. For I feel that an honorable gentleman should not so far forget what he owes to the House, as to speak in an uncalled for and derogatory manner of the character of any Cliristian clergy- men. (Hear, hear.) But, to come to the question now at issue before this House, I say it is a most important one. It is one, in the discussion of which we should rise above the party feelings of the day, and treat it as men fully alive to its important and momentous bearings. The question is fairly before the House and before the country, and we arc bound to deal with it. Now I can safely say, so far as I am concerned personally, not only as regards the present, but in the past, that I have never, by my voice or influence, given an^ supjjort or countenance to the grants heretofore made to the denomina- tional colleges. I am in a position, therefore, to take my stand firmly on the question, and in dealing with it in its national bearings, and in all its natijnal magnitude, to meet it fairly on its merits. The question is not what were the influences from Lower Canada which we liad to contend with in the past, or what the education of the people of this country has been in the past. We are now assembled as a distinct Province, having the control of our own local aflairs — and in the name of our common country, I ask hon- orable gentlemen to show themselves capable of rising to the importance of this great question, that is now placed before them. (Hoar, hear.) In proceeding to deal with it, I Avill at once state my firm conviction that there may be a non-denominational monopoly as much as a denom- inational monopoly. There is no reason why, if we discontinue the grants on the system on which they have been given in the past, if we have taken a pioper stand in doing so — and the Government, I contend, have taken a proper stand, so far as they have gone — there is no reason why they should stop short, and leave the matter in the half-settled state in which they have left it at the present time. I believe the hour is come, and I believe the man equal to the hour is now at the head of affairs in this coimtry, who can settle the (question. (Hear, hear.) I say, the country calls upon that honorable gentleman to take hold of the question Avith a firm ext« THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 6f hand, ami believes that ^ " at (question has a claim on the honorable gentleman's conntenance and support in this House, from the fact that he has been consistently an advocate of all liberal measures, during his whole public life, for the last tAventy-eight years. During that time, the honorable gentleman'* voice has never been given against the people of this country on any great question. And I ask him now not to go with a party — not to go with wliat is pretended to be the i)opidar voice for the time being-^not to leave this matter in the unsettled state in which this resolution would leave it — not to forget his duty to the country and the position he now holds, by thus leaving the question unsettled. 1 believe it is the desire of every honorable member of this Hovse that this question should be settled on a firm and broad national l)asi8, siich as will meet the approval and supi>ort of all right- thinking men. I think it must be the opinion of all who are desirous of the welfare and prosperity of our common country, that no man could be more fittingly selected, and that no man coiild be more (Competent to deal with the question than the honorable gentleman uoav at the lioiid of the adminis- tration of affairs in this Province — and I ask him not lightly to pass by the opportunity of settling it, now presented to him. It may be said — " You have the statute of 1 853— accept of its terms ; excejit in connection with that Act, we know nothing aboiit you." Or, on the other hand, it may be said — "You have nothing to do with the endowment of University College ; it was a grant given by George the Third, in 1791, and was never taken out of the pockets (jf the people of this country." Now, as far as I am concerned, 1 may be young in public life, but I Avill be long in public life before I assume that the people do not own the endowment of the University — that it does not belong to the people of this country, every tittle of it. I believe that it is a fund which belongs to the people, and that we have a full right to deal with it, and to see that it is fairly distributed, so that all portions of the jjeoplo of this country may enjoy the benefit of it. I do not believe that it was given for the benefit of one particular party, who, under the name of the few gentlemen designated as the Senate of the University, shall have the entire control and nianagement of it. It was given for the benefit of the whole people of this country, and it becomes the Government of the Province to see that that endowment is administered in accordance with the terms on which it was originally granted. Having said this much, I would just ask honorable gentlemen to refioct for a few moments, as to how this endowment came into the hands of those who now enjoy it, and see whether they can say to us — "You have no right to insist on an inspection into our afiairs." Mr. BLAKE -Hear ! hear ! Mr. COYNE— As far as I am concerned, I have no personal interest or personal desire to serve in this mntter. What I do desire, is, to some extent, to serve my country. 1 do de^^ire to ace this much vexed question 58 THE COLLEGK QUESTION. removed from the arena of political strife, and a national system of education built lip on the good-will and hearts, and free voice and hearty support of the whole jieople of this country, so far as this is practicable to be done. I will be asked — What are my own views in reference to this question i I shall state the proj^o^tion that was made in 1861, as to the terms on which this endowment should be divided among the people. I do not stand hero as the spc^-esman of those denominational gentlemen, and have nothing to do with them whatever. I have no knowledge of them, with reference to their denominational position or sectarian names. I must say, a great deal of blame rests on the men who are knocking at the door of this chamber and asking those grants. They are the men who assisted in wresting from King's College what did not belong to it ; and why did they not then take the stand which they take to-day I Why did they not join in establishing a truly national system ? If they are now in the position that they have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind, the faiilt rests with themselves. So long as they received those annual grants, they accepted them, and were satisfied with them, and were willing to allow the most wealthy endowments for educational purposes in the world to be swamped. I say, the manage- ment of that endowment is no ciedit to the gentlemen who have had charge of it in times past. But I do hope the time is now come when the whole system of education in this country will be put on a better basis — from the Common Schools, up through the Grammar Schools, the people's Colleges, to the University. Though I stand here as the representative of a Conser- vative constituency, I say tiiat that last relic of the family compact. Upper Canada College, deserves no consideration at the hands of this House, or at the hands of the people of this country. I say, we should give the people their rights in reference to this matter, and wipe out the very existence of Upper Canada College. But I shall refer again to that branch of the question before I close. 3Ieanwhile, I shall quote a proposition which was made as long ago as 1801, for the settlement of this question, I quote from Dr. Ryerson's pamphlet : — "1. That there shall be a National University for Upper Canada, as was contemplated by the University Act of 1853. "2. That the Senate of the University shall be under the control of no one College more than another ; shall be independent of all Colleges, and prescribe the standard and course of studies for all Colleges (except in Divinity), and direct the examinations, and confer the University honors and. degrees on the students of all the Colleges. "3. That no College connected with the University shall confer degrees. ■''4. That each College connected with the? University shall be entitled to public aid from the University Fund, according to the number of its students matriculuted by the University. "5. That there shall be one University Fund, distributed to each College according to its works in imparting the education prescribed by national authority." hep J am ow gr; coi int Co to tak as 7IIE COLLEGE QUESTION. 59 iication port of me. I ion J I 1 which 1(1 here ,hing to jence to eat deal ber and n King's he stand ; a truly lown the ves. So md were iowments manage- id charge he whole from the Colleges, I Conser- 3t, Upper use, or at le people istence of !h of the vhich was uote from a, as was . of no one egc3, and (except in ity honors degrees. Bntitled to ts students ,ch College )y national Such a degree as that contemx)lated under this system, would bear the same value, in a nati(mal point of vio\v, and would stamp a similar character on the graduates issuing from that institution, as a degree from Trinity College, in Ireland, from Oxford or Cambridge, in England, or from Edinburg or the other Universities, in Scotland. That being the system which the people of this country reqixire, I believe the petitions which have been set agoing, 2Wo and cojt, have been framed on both sides, so as to evade the question. It is prayed on the one hand, that aid be granted to superior education, and on the other, that no further aid be granted to denominational colleges. I be- lieve the prayer of this latter class of petitions expresses the all but unani- mous voice of the people of this coiuitry ; that it is the beat of the nation's pulse which is thus conveyed to this House, and that is the reason why we have the trimming language found in the petitions that are presented on the other side. But, to come down to the practical bearings of the question — Avhich is one, as I have said, for the Government to deal with — I certainly cannot vote against the amendment, which announces the doctrine that I have ever held on tliis subject. I am not one to go back on my professed Ijrinciples, and I shall not now give an expression to my vieAvs contrary to what I have given in times past. I think it is matter of congratulation to this House that the honorable gentlemen who have introduced the original Resolution, should have laid down the propositi'^n contained in that Resolu- tion. It is a matter of congratulation that those who in times past have entertained the opinion that denominational colleges should receive State aid, and be supported out of the Public Treasury, that they are now prepared to concede that claim, and to go for a system of national university education. I am slad it should be so. I do not wish to throAV it back in the teeth of the honorable member for Welland, that he may have enunciated views last year different from those he enunciates now. If he has changed his views it is a matter of congratulation to me that his views at the present time are in accord with the views and feelings of the people of this country. (Hear, hear.) I will now ask honorable gentlemen to bear with me a little, while I call their attention for a few minutes to some of the expenses of this model university, which is held up to the admiration of the people of this country. I think the returns which have been made, on the order of this House, aflford a sufficient ground why the people should be roused to a sense of their own interests in this matter. They show that] these lands which were granted at a very early date for the superior education of the people of this country, have been mismanaged and abused, and wrested from their original intention. The way in which this endowment was managed by King's College, every honorable gentleman must regret, and every one must feel it to be a matter of congratulation to the country that the endoAvment was taken away from under the control of one sect or denomination, and devoted, as was the intention at the time, to placing the institution on a broad national 60 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. m basis. The matter was first taken in charge by the Hon. Robert Baldwin, in his Act of 1849, and was afterwards dealt Avith by Mr. Hincks, in the Act of 1853. Now I do not know that I am thoroughly acquainted with the true history of this question ; but there is something in it that very much sur- prises me indeed, namely : that when these colleges got that enactn^ent, they did not avail themselves of it ; that, after Parliament liad heard their case, and enacted the statuto of 18513 for their benefit, they did not avail them- selves of its provisions. There may bo some truth in the statement that that statute was ameiided and passed throiigh Parliament in the end, with an eye to the giving out of the University contract in the City of Toronto. If such were the case, it is the duty of this House, find of the Government, to see that that raatter is investigated. It is said by those who are informed on this question, that inthe]:)lace of the 54th clause, as it now stands, another was introduced in the draft of the Bill, as presented to Parliament, to the effect that a stated amount should be given to each of the colleges which availed themselves of the provisions of the Act. If this statement be correct, I regret exceedingly that the Bill did not pasjs in the shapo in which it stood in the draft. Every well-wisher of his country nuist regret tliat it did not pass in that way . But it is said, and it is thrown in the teeth of the gentle- men who are now asking consideration jit the hands of the people of this country, and laying their case before this Plouse ; it is thrown in their teeth, that it was they themselves who got the change made, because they thought the surplus would be a great deal more than the amount of the fixed sum they were to receive, and that they would thus receive a great deal more from the public chest. There are one c two items in these returns of Uni- versity expenditure to which I must now refer. It has been said by Lord Dundreary, that there are some things which nobody can understand ; and if there is one thing more than another wdiich no one can understand, I think it must be the return of expenditure which we get from such an institution as University College. I find that in the year 1807, the item of "incidents" amount to the nice little sum of ^1,(520.72. The little item of "stationery" is also a singulai" one. I think they must surely l)uy their stationery for the University in some small retail establishment, in the back streets of the City of Toronto, because I cannot conceive that, with any prudent manage- ment of the Institution, so hirge a value of stationery could be consumed in one year. In 18G7, for the simple matter of stationerj-, $2,333 were taken out of that endowment. (Hear, hear.) I ask whether that is not a large sum for those gentlemen to squander for such a purpose. I am not, however, so miich surprised after all, when I remember the language of a gentleman, whose opinion th]us, and the aiuouut. Tlie ni'jinor.iiuluni is as ioIIowh : — ■ 1850 — Balance Licomo Fund carried to credit Surplus Fund $12,148 20 18.5'— " " " " " 13,475 72 1855— " *' c; « (t ,jo(3 <■)() 1850— " " " " " 1,370 98 Aiiiount at creilit Surplus Fund 827, (191 95 This is ihe Bursar's statement in reference to the .surplus funds. We can hardly suppose any body of men ]>ciu(; oxtiMvagaut cncnigh to make away with the vrlhv.o of tlio .splendid end'W.-meni appropriated to si:pcrior educa- tion in tliis country. But, boyond all qu,>s^itm, the money v>as friUored av,'ay ; and is it ni.t disreputa'tlo that those in charge should have to confess thtit they k'now notliing alxiut tho way in which these vast sums have been squandered * I knov." nothing about the Bui-far, and only take the published statement— that which is given by themselves. Hero it is :— The (pies- tion is imt— "Where is the 827.()91,95 P Bcph'— " It is supposed to be lying in the Bank of Upper Canada, forming part of the general f;mds in my charge." " Wliat do yon mean," it Avas asked, "by supposed to be lying in tho Bank of Uiiper Canada ! State th.e thing as it is." " Tlio nu- ley is in my hands, but 1 have had to draw up^n it, and various other funds hi my 62 TIIK aUAA-MK (H'KSTIOX. hands, to muot tho costs of tlio Imilding." Ami, mark you, wlicntliu Biirsor was asi.ed whore tho .s\ir])lu.s moiioy was — horoplics : that it in HiipiioHcd to be lying " in tlio Bank of l'[)i)er Canada forming part of thi> genoral funds in my. charge." lie never did a\ hat the statute phiinly directed him to do, regai'ding these funds, but entered tiiom in tho general account. (Hear, hoar.) The further qucsticm bcii.g init--" How is tho money to be eniph/ved?" He says : — " I have recoivLd no directions as to what should be done with it, except that it was to bo considered as a siu'j)Ius fund lying in tlu* 'Jank of Upper Canada to my credit ; but in conse(|uenco of tho (mtlay for tho braiding, 1 have been obliged to livcrdraw on tlie Baiik." Now, this n.oney belongs to the ' eople of this country ; and, even at this late day, it is their prerogative tv deriand from the University Board what had been demo with tliis money. We ha^e a riglit to call on thoni to refund this amount. (Hear, hear.) And there is something more. Wo hear a good deal aliout centralization in Toronto ; and wo see that the public jour- nals of tho city disagreeing on almost every other point, avo remarkably luianimous in thia. But there if) a great deal of force in the t)bjection8 to this centralization. Is it, let mo ask, fa' to the tax payers throughout the coimtiy ? For, after all, this endowmeiit formed part of tlie assets of the people ;/f the Province. Tliis revenae lias been diverted from the purposes to which it was originally devoted ; and I assert without fear of contradic- tion, that no system can ever 1)0 iiiveiited to set tlio matter right, which left the control of the institution in the hands of an irrespon ublo lioard. (Hoar, hear.) As far as tho management of this fund is conccrii'Ml, I contend that no effective system can be introduced excep.'- the establislimeiit of one broad national system, wliich v.-ould make the Crovernment of the day responsible for every sixpence paid out on account of University College. T wouhl have ill tliis Housj a IMinlster of Education to deal with the fiuestioii, from tho lowest Common School to the highest University ; and until -we have some such system — until there has been a general consolidation, we can never have this fund properly administered. (Hear.) Tho public will be no longer satisfied witli half measures in relation to oducatior. If tlie medicine is to be effective at this stage, it must not bo taken in small doses. (Hear, hear.) Anel I would ask the Government of the day to pause before lightly passing by this question. 1 would regi-et exceedingly there should ever be an emer- gency which would give rise to a public clamour for the disendowment of University College. But if we do not meet this questiem fairly — a question which is entertained by a large portion of the public — if the question is not dealt with by the Government of the day — then, most assuredly, it will bo taken in hand by the peoi)le themselves — (hear and cheers) — for, T firmly believe, there is no "put off'' to this question. There is no use in the Government of the day attempting to evade tJieir responsibility in relation vil V ■ :t .^-^ THE COLLEGE QUESTION. ) Bursar ,c(l to bo funds in 1 to Jo, ,r, hoar.) pl.,ved?" t, except )f Upper -aUliuy, I en at this jiutl what to refund V'o licar a iblic jouv- jiuarkably jections to ighout the ots of the ,e purposes contradic- which left ,1. (Hear, atend that one broad responsible would have 1, from the have some never have no longer cine is to be [lear, hear.) tly passing he an emer- dowment of _a question estion is not J it will be lor, T firmly nse in the y in relation to it. (Cheers.) For my part T would like to see in Canada an institu- tion Homethiuy like the London University — a University wliich couhl send to tliis House and to the Dominion Parliament, a member to take a position there as specially charged with the interests of higher education. (Hear and cheers.) Term it, if you like, an electoral college, or what you will, but let its working and power bo nuch hh I have alluded to. As for purely Denominational Colleges, 1 say — as has been said during this debate already, that there is no use whatever in seeking pid)lic aid for such institu- tions. We will never again join Church and State in this Province, or go back again and undo what we did in 1854, in the seocularization of the Clergy Reserves. But while holding this view, 1 cannot shut my eyes to the issue lying before this Housm and the pe(»ple of this country in dealing with the great (piestion now before us. I would on this ocdasiou have liked to have taken up more time in dealing with Upper Canada College in its relation to the University, but will reserve my remarks on that subject for a future occasion. Th'it Institution has been estab'ished with a large endowment — and, as 1 view it, no possible Ucfeiice can be made in this House, or the country, justifying the establishment of such an Institution in Toronto, at the expense of the Province at large. Every cent of the expense of maintaining and working that splendid establishment, with its Btati" of thirteen teachers, is taken frou) the i>ublic pur.ie — and is, I maintain, wrongly taken. (Hear, hear. ) Tlie honorable gentleman, having noticed the instance cited by a previous speaker, as showing the proficiency of students of the University of Toronto — the instance in which the Gilchrist Scholarship was borne ott" by a student of one year — contended that that evidenced, also, the efficiency of the Grammar Schools and other educational institutions in which the fortunate winner of the Scholarship had received his previous education — went on to say : — The view I take in reference to the question before the House, is that it is not fairly put, even by the original resolution ; and, as far as the amendment is concerned, I must say that we cannot go back from the position assumed by us last session; I should, therefore, lUKiuestiouably accept the aaondment. (Hear.) But I can tell the Government that the i)asaage of that amendment Avill prove no solution of the difficulty. (Cheers.) That amendment does not squarely and honestly meet the issue before us. Already we have had abundance of evidence that there is an agitation going on in the minds of the people of the country on this subject. There is no use shirking this view of the case ; and, under the circumstances, let me ask honorable gentlemen, can they for a moment believe they meet the question fairly by the amendment before us / It may relieve honorable gentlemen from an inconvenient position at present, but the difficulty remains, and will have to be met fairly and squarely, sooner or later. (Cheers.) In conclusion, I would ask honorable gentlemen to jjrepare themselves for what must (J4 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. inovitably ariso — the agitation of this questicni from rtiio ciul of the country to tho other. (Hoar, liear.) For my own part, I can only liope tliat that agitation will bo productivo , but I woxild desire to say a few words respecting tho amendment of the honoi'ablo mend)er for Lincoln. At the communcemont of the session, lionorablo gontlomon aro aware, T gave notice of a resolution which 1 intended to propose, of a ch;iracter totiiUv difFercnt from that bnmght forward by mo to-night. I intended then to press on the House tho advisability of giving temporary relief to denominational Colleges. The member ff)r Lincoln also gave notice of an amendment to that resolution, to tho etl'ect that the House had already declared it inexpedient that public money should be paid out for this purpose, and that it Would ha unwise in the Legislatm-o to grant further aid to donoi.iinational Colleges. As I stated before, at the .^.uggos- tion of my friends, I considered it expedient to AvithdraAV that reBolutit)n, and give notice of that which 1 now propose. The dilferonco between tho two re^iolatums is not hard to iicrccive, and the notico of tho present vesolutjon has l)eun before the House ])etwoen two and tlireo weeks. Now, f submit that if the honorable member for Lincoln meant to deal fairly with me, ho should have given notice of his amendment soon after I put my resolution on tho jjaper. But he did not do ro ; and, until ho proiiosod it in the Hcni.^o to-day, I was not aware of its precirjo terms. It Vtan only yesterday 1 learned that the honorable gentleman i:itundcd to ja-uposo an amendment ; but of it:, nature 1 was, as I say, imaware, until ho ynoroblo member to propose an a-iiiendvuent of this chai'acter witliont giving notico o it. I contend that his object in moving this amendment is tt» ;iv(nd a direct vote on tho propostion befoi'e us, and ivik tho House to concur in a totiilly diiferent resolution. Kuch a course, is, I a;iy, inifair : ii>v if tho House was disposed to deal ftiirly Avith the , but I morablo i>noniblo 'wdvd to \ 1)y mo )f giving coin also lio House id out for to grant e snggoH- ^>B()lntion, ,\voen the 13 pveaont :s. Now, loal fairly 1 put iny L'optiscd it waa only jroposo an yot u[) in luniorublc f nor.ica o id a direct n a totally Huusi'. was I !io isiiue 1 II in'. SI) will :\iid which :,hu (crigiual own views diypoijod to h.lievo the \y :vu advo- the t'lplicit ,Uty ».l' eon- US, and ask coutnming MR, BLAKE'S SPEECH. Mr. BLAKE said— He rose with considerable satisfaction at having heard from members that there was a general disinclination to restoring the system of Denominational Orants. Tn February last, a discussion took 2)lace, which was different in tone, and he ventured to jircdict that the ciuestion— for there was a (inestion — was not solved by the Legislation which then took place, and that tlie (piostion was one of great significance. That <|uc8tion had now come np, and was pregnant with usefulness. Then tliero was some foreshadowing of wliat was now pi'oposed — the continuing of the gi'ants — because the movers of the resolution considered that the colleges were entitled to some solid aid. Miraculous to say, the two resolutions of the honorable mover of the present resolution, were brought before the House on the same day. Mr. CLARKE — It was not before the House. Mr, BLAKE — Yes ; both were on the orders of the day, and were called by the Speaker, when the honorable gentlemaix Avished to withdraw one of them — the one proposing grants to colleges — or rather stating that it was expedient to continue support to the colleges. (Hear from the Attomey- Generul.) Now, the honorable gentleman said that it was imfair to refer to that resolution, on the groimd that it was a merely temporary motion. Well, it was not a temporary motion, for it did no less than reverse the entire legislation of this Housi;, in respect of the subject now under discussion. Why did he (Mr. TMuke) now refer to this subject? It was to show the dangerous nature of the motion now before the House. The resolution affirmed the desirability of establishing a Provincial University. Why, the country already had such an University. One was already in existence. There was in the motion an abstract proposition before the House to affiliate the colleges with the University. It was -^ matter to be considered in two ways — as one of advisability, and as one of details. Now, if any pla i was brought forward by the honorable gentleman, or the Govern- ment, he vould be prepared to consider that plan ; but he could not enter upon the f.onsideration of the two abstract resolutions the honorable gentle- man had brought forward. If that was done he would be ready to consider thfit plan. The honorable member was pnuUnt enough to go into details. 5 66 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. The honorable member for Algoma did propose a scheme. It was one pro- posed on a former occasion, and one he had himself discxissed, and ■which contained a difliculty Avhich could not be overcome. Mr. CLARKE — What is your scheme ? Mr. BLAKE — I am discussing the honorable member's scheme. The hon- orable member for Algoma's scheme said that there was to be no religious teaching whatever. He had taken down the words as they were spoken, with all that impressiveness which must convince the members of this House that the honorable member sjioke on behalf of some particular college. Mr. CUMBERLAND disavowed speaking on behalf of any college, spoke entirely the conviction of his own judgment. He Mr. BLAKE — Well, that showed the quagmire into which the House would fall if they adopted the honorable gentleman's views. The hon- orable gentleman now, it appeare " came forward with a complete scheme, which did not emanate from any other person or body, but simply as the result of his own views. Well, that placed the whole question in this light — that the honorable gentleman who had supported the resolution did so with- out having the authority or the conviction of any minds but their own indi- vidually, and this would have the effect of placing the House in the position of having to find the solution of the question fo ^ them. Now, what were the details of the scheme ? It was said that it was advisable that there should be a universal curriculum of study. If that could be done it would be a good thing, but there were no means mentioned for convincing this House. The honorable member proceeded at length to criticise the details offered by Mr. Cumberland, and argued against their practicability. LasL but not least came the questita of aid. It was proposd that there should be a certain number of graduates to entitle colleges to afHliate. Mr. CUMBERLAND stated tliat he meant to suggest that there should be a minimum fixed. Mr. BLAKE — The proposal involved that the receipt of the State aid was dependant upon that qualification, and that would residt iit colleges reducing the standard of their pupils, so as to j>roduce a given number. That was really the difficultj'^ of the case, and it was a formidable one, which should induce the House not to devise a scheme, but rather to wait for a scheme n-nd uiscuss its merits when it came. The fact was that the standard of edu- cation was the stand-point of the framers of the resolution ; but he had already shown that,* instead of the standard being i-aiaed, the tendency would be to lower it. He questioned very much whether this resolution was not calculated, as a first step, tn accomplish the result aimed at by the first reso- lution, which was withdrawn, in consequence of the utter hopelessness of this House being induced to adopt it. He himself was in favor of an THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 67 He amended educational scheme. (Heai\) }3ut he must have something tangible before liim. It had been said that the name of the University- should be changed irom "Toronto" to "Ontario," but he did not agree with that, because, as the University of Toronto, it had gained a name which many such an institution in other parts of the world miglit envy. At the proper time he would be prepared to propose the following amendment : — " That this House, while firmly adhering to the view that denominational colleges should not be supported by State, and is prepared to give its best consideration to any scheme which m?.y be laid before it for the improvement of superior education, and for the establishment and maintenance through the Provincial University of a uniform and elevated standaid oi education." Mr. W. CLARKE, asked Avhat was the difterence between his resolution and that of the honorable gentleman who last spoke ? Mr. BLAKE said the dilFerence was that his resolution affirmed the Avillingness of the Htmse to consider any good scheme, but that of the hon- or.T.ble gentleman committed the House. (Hear.) MR. LAUDER'S SPEECH. good Id was lucing it was Should cheme |f edii- Le had I would Us not roso- less of of an Mr. LAUDER said — I am sure the House will agree with me that there is no question which has come before us, since we Avere called together, of so much importance, as that which now engages the attention of the House, namely, the colleges of the countiy, their regulation and maintenance. Dur- ing last session the subject was discussed to some extent, and the present dis- cussion was at that time foreshadowed by several honorable members who then addressed the House. The agitation which we have witnessed, as shewn by tlie petitions which have been presented to the House, the discussions in the public newspapers, and the views which have been announced by honorable member,'* hero to-night, was foreshadowed at that time. I was not prepared, Mr. Speaker, for the unanimitj- manifested on this great question to-night. By the newspapers we foimd the dili'erent ('hurches dragged into the discus- sion of this question — most improperly. (Hear, hear. ) But here to-night, honorable gentlemen on both sides of the House— speaking upon this ques- tion, although dillbring on minor matters, according to the peculiar stand- points from Avhich they are individually viewed, have taken the broad, patriotic ground that there is a grievance rerjuiring amendment, and that we must take that gi-ievance up. But while we have had University College, and the yarious griev-auces connected a\ ith it, discussed — while Upper Canada College has been spoken against— and while the other Colleges and the other branches of our educational system have been commented on — one feeling 68 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. was prominent, that the time had come wlien either the Government, or some member under their sanction, shonld take up this question of collegiate edu- cation. With but one exception, all felt that we were bound to deal with this question as a Legislature, on public grounds and without regard to sec- tional feelings and differences — and I must say I was surprised at this one exception, I mean the honorable member for Lincoln. I was astonished at the remarks of that honorable gentleman. He held uj* one particular denom- ination in the Province to ridicule for having carried on what lie called a crusade against the University, and had taken advantage of the absence of a certain class of gentlemen from the floor of this House, to abuse and slander a large class of the community. He spoke of the graduates of outside Col- leges in a style which he may adopt, if he likes to venture it, when he goes outside the walls of this House. At such a time he may compare graduates with graduates, and if he pleases colleges with college j. But I cm tell that honorable gentleman, when he takes his position here in the Legislature, as a public man, that he has no right to slander any particular class of the com- munity, and holding them up as having degrees from Universities and being nevertheless uneducated. I will not use the terms which that honorable member applied to those graduates, but when he states that these outside colleges had not imparted that education and training to their graduates which Avould enable them to comi>ete and take position with the graduates o^ other colleges and universities, he makes a statement fpiite unAvarranted and unworthy any honorable member occupying a seat in this Chamber. (Hear, hear.) I can tell that honorable gentleman that there are hundreds in this Province to-day who have derived the greatest benefit from the training and education imparted by those institutions which he reprobated and spoke dis- paragingly of. And further, he may rest assiu-ed his remarks here will not go unanswered, and the honorable gentleman will find out that he has made a mistake in asserting that these gentlemen, as a class, are not to be called graduates — that they are not Avorthy that credit and position which their degree in those colleges gives them. (Hear.) What right had he to speak disparagingly of such colleges as Trinity, Queen's and Vi(;t(jria — some of wh >se graduates had taken the highest honors in Britain i Of such men it is that the honorable gentleman comes here and speaks in a contemptible way — a way that docs him no credit, belong to what college he may. (Hear, hear.) He may continue to talk of particular churches and doncnninations, and endeavor to bring them into disrepute and reprobation, but I have no doubt the honorable gentleman's constituents will retjuire an explanation at his hand, and I will leave them to deal with him, when he goes back to them. (Hear, hear.) I have heard it stated. Sir, that this agitation originated and has been carried on by a certain class of the cimnuunity in hostility to University Col- lege ; and, again, over and over, I have heard that disclaimed on the floor of THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 69 as been ity Col- floor of this House, and we are told, Sir, that we are seeking to put our hands in the public chest — we who are seeking a re-organization of the University and College system of the country. But I believe the truth is they are afraid to make these charges here where they can be answered, and where the sectar- ian cry can be dealt with on its true foundation. They are aware that some of the denominations supporting these Colleges for a quarter of a century have been kncjwn as voluntaries from the commencement. The conference of the Methodist Church in 183(i-'37-'38— over and over again— passed reso- lutions disclaiming all interest in the Clergy Reserve endowment, on which they had a claim prior to handing over those Reserves to the Canadian Gov- ernment. Mr. McMURRlCH— They have taken the money though. Mr. LAUDER — So far from this being the case, they actually passed resolutions giving up all claims on that endowment in order to enable the Government to deal with it, and settle tlie question finally. The whole his- tory of the Methodist organization, indeed, shows it to have been based on the voluntary principle. But to say that supporting a College under their control for secular tralnitig, and receiving a grant of public money in aid of such training, is to be associated with State aid, and characterized as a rem- nant of a State Church system, is simply talking from prejudice, and assum- ing that he prn Schools, unless associated with religions teaching. I believe a large section of the people share that feeling, although tlie Legislature only sanctions the control of Common School education by one class of the community, the Roman Catholics. Their scruples had been sanctioned and recognized by the Legis- lature in times gone by. In other countries, too, we find that nearly all the denominations represented in this Province, control thou- own schools. This is the case in Britain. In Scotland, in nearly every town where a Free Church congregation is established, they have their own schools. Though having parish schools, tliey establish others under their control and appoint their own teachers. Of course they did not at first share in State aid. but I believe many such schools so established are now recipients of government support. In England, as I have said, the difierent bodies control their own schools. Wesleyans, Presbyterians, Independents, and Episcopalians— all 70 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. hare their ovm day-schools — and will any one ventiire to assort that educa- tion is in the background in England ? Their educational system there i» neither backward nor sectarian. 1 am not now, Mr. Speaker, advocating the system ■vvhicli provrils in that land, but am instancing the educational system of Britain, as illustrating that secular teaching by denominations is not new, nor always injurious to the interests of education. (Hear, hear.) And what do •we find to be the case here ? Not-withstanding the establishment of Univer- sity College years ago, nearly all the denominations in the Province have their own Colleges. Victoria College has been founded some 25 years and upwards ; and the Church of England not onlj' supports its own College in this city — which has been in existence for many years — but Episcopalians have established new Colleges in London and Picton. The Church of Scotland has Queen's College ; the Baptists have establislied a College in Woodstock, and otlier denominations have their own colleges ; all clinging to the idea that for reasons which they no donbt dc^m well founded their denomination should control its own College. Can we shut tmr eyes to this state of things ? Hon. Mr. WOOD— Who objects to it ? Mr. LAUDER. — No one objects ; but an Act of Parlian^ent, I fancy, will not have the effect of compelling the people to sujiport one College. When v/e had this question under discussion before, the Hon. the Treasurer endeavored to show the relative position of the denominations of the Pro- vince regarding each other, and proved from the census tables that certain denominations were more or less numerous than others ; and he also tried to prove, at the same time, that a large number of the people of this Province were favorable to secular Colleges alone, and unfavorable to denominational Colleges. But when we come to examine the statistics given on that occa- sion in connection Avith the Colleges, as we find them, we iind that they do not bear out that argument. The fact is, that the vast majority of the peojile of .he Province — throiigh the heads of their denominations —sanction and sup- port their oA\ai Colleges, send their children to them, and in every Avay main- tain these institutions vigorously and well ; while, on the other hand, we find University College, on which such a vast amount is expended — is attended by a mere fraction of the youth of the country seeking superior education. And yet honorable gentlemen try to persuade themselves that there m\ist be no extension of our College system. (Heai*, hear.) I was very glad to hear the member for South Bruce disclaim such an idea. Judging from what vre had heard and ^jcen before, that honorable gentlemen might have been ex- pected to take different ground . But what does he say ? He does not say that University College is perfect. He does not assert it to be pure and free from all abuse and mismanagement, nor yet that we must not interfere with it. No, but he takes the broad ground, wliich I hope members of the House THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 71 will follow, and which the Government itself ought to occupy. He argues that if tliere are abuses connected with that institution, they (iught to be remedied ; that if the country declares for more than one College, that they should have thoni — tliat if a proper scheme were presented for the organiza- tion of a Provincial University wit]i. affiliated Colleges he would entertain it and discuss it. (Hear, hear.) Now, for my part I do not care how much he may object to the details given by the member for Algoma, so long as he maintains the broad principle — which I believe this Province is prepared to sus- tain — that if the people demand more than one College, such a demand should be listened to. (Hear, hear.) Honorable gentlemen get up ^r> their places and tell U3 that one College has been established by the Government and that there shall be no more, and in fact they say there is no need of more. But not one gentleman representing a constituency outside Toronto will take up that position ; for I know the coimtry Avould not sustain them. (Cheers.) You have but to mention in any rural constituency the facts connected Avith that one College — to show the vast sums spent in brick and mortar and stone — the manner in which the splendid endowment lias been frittered away in an elaborate system of decoration, heating and other xiaeless incidentals — to con- vince the people of the mismanagement attending it, and the necessity for a change. (Hear, hear.) And not only has a splendid endowment been wasted but the inatitntion is now ^70,000 and upwards in debt. Sir, Avhen we look back at the inception of that institution, and the mode of regulating its ex- penditure and management, we are astonished that any body of men such as the Senate of Toronto University, supposed to represent the intel- ligence of the Piovince, should allow any sub-committee to spend such an enormous sum of money in building up a fiiie monument of their extrava- gance and want of economy in the waste of this endowment. (Hear, hear.) I say, taking the history of this institution, there can be no pretence of any judicious careful management of the endowment ; but quite the contrary, — I care not Avho says difierently. (Hear, hear.) I have no desire whatever to throw odium on any particular individual connected with that institution. Men of great learning and ability are associated with it. They command the respect of the Province, as far as position and learning are concerned. But this Province is not prepared to endorse tlie action of the managers of the insti- tution with regard to the fund committed to their control, and you have but to refer to the Parliamentary Commission of Enquiry to find them condemned for their mismanagement. Reforms were suggested and determined on by that commission ; and now that we are as a Province controlling our own affairs, are we to shut our eyes to this state of things, and say we will do nothing ? not even make enquiry, or extend, were neoded, the benefits of that endowment to other sections of the Province ? I ask members repre- senting the eastern and western sections of Ontario are they'prepared to take a position which will have the effect of shutting up the doors of Queen's 72 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. College ? I believe that if they are, the Province vill not sustain them. (Hear, hear.) The Province does not desire that those time-honored insti- tutions, which have been doing such good work for the youth of the Province, should be shut up in th'S summary way. Having received aid from Govern- ment for the past 25 years, these institutions had grown up and flourished, and to tut them off from all Government support now, was r either a states- man like nor politic act. (Hear, hear. ) You may change their management and remove everything which could be considered sectarian before giving aid, but do not destroy them. Would it not be better, in order to give the people of the Province time to mature and introduce a scheme to meet the views of the members of the Government, and of the member for South Bruce, who was the leader of a certain section of the House, and spoke for that section — Mr. BLAKE — I am not the leader — I never was the loader of any sec- tion — and I spoke for myself only. Mr. LAUDER — Of course I am bound to accept the honorable gentle- man's statement — and I am glad to receive even his own opinion. But I ventur3 to say that the view laid down by him before the House — the broad and statesman like way in which he suggests he is ready to meet this College difficulty — is one which will meet the support of the House and the Province at large. True, as I said, he does not agree with the member for Algoma in some of the details. Neither do I, and others also object to some of these details. But when leading members of this House take the position that this question must be dealt with, and press on the Government the necessity of taking up a question like this, we have reached a point we desire to bring members to — viz : that the question must be dealt with — (cheers) — and though it may be thrown over for the session, it cannot be burked, checked, nor buried — that it will spring up constantly until a satisfactory solution has been arrived at. (Hear, hear.) Before sitting down I would like to say that I have always objected, ever since I knew anything of the bearing of the question on our Colleges — to the system of annual grants. (Hear.) It is wrong in principlo and injurious in practice, that Colleges should be obliged to come here from year to year to apply for grants. In no other country in the world is such a system in existence. This thing should be put on a Legis. lative basis — should be regulated by public enactment — and in such a course the great majority of the people of the Province would concur. Members may tell us that by advocating this we are raising the old question of hostility to University College, and even charges us with bringing back a repetition of the scenes when Upper and Lower Canada were arrayed against each other. They tell us, you are raising the old sectarian cry. But I do not fear it. I believe we are able to discuss and settle this matter without bringing back those scenes of recrimmination and virulence. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I promised THE COLLEGE QUESTION. (3 on a former occasion — and I am prepared to fulfil it — that there was no clasa of my constituents — whatever Church they belonged to — whom I would like to see wronged. I gave my promise- and I feel it to be sacred — that if ever a minority of the people of the Province were held up to execration, 1 would stand by them, and on no occasion would I vote contrary to their rights and privileges, as citizens. (Hear, hear.) "With regard to the course of the At- torney General in this matter, I must admit that since I have taken my place on the floor of this House, on many occasions I have been glad to be able to gupport him. On more than one occasion I was pleased to see the stand he took, and the economy which he manifested in conducting tho public busi. ness of ihe Province. But I must admit that on the (juestion before the House I am astonished at the way in which he shuts his eyes and says that we must do nothing — (hear, hear) — tliat there may be ever so much petition and disciission, but we are to have nothing to do with it — that it is a question of old sectarian cries and of old parties, and we must not interfere. I sincerely hope he will re-ctmsider that position, and that the Go\ ornment will not allow this question to be disposed of without giving some indication of the interest taken in it — (hear, hear) — and that they will tell us that they are prepared to take it up and deal with it as a Government. This is not a question for a private membe : to take up and propound a theory upon, in the way asked. They say, what is j'our scheme. Now I submit that it is not the most desirable course for private members to undertake any such sclieme. It is not for any private member to plan the details of a scheme of such magnitude. It must be taken hold of and dealt with by the Government. But they say, if we make any change in the direc- tion indicated, there will be no end of tliese educational insitutions, and one College is enough — we do not care how well secular training has been done in any of the Colleges — we will not recognize you in any way — we give you one College, and we will not condescend to investigate the atfairs of even that institution although it is under our own control, and although this House is responsible to the country for its management. This is their language. Although they have on their official tiles a report directing enquiry into the management of this institution in this city, they say we will have nothing to do with It — we will not interfere — we will shut our eyes to it altogether. Perhaps this position is one satisfactory to the Government. But I can tell those honorable gentlemen that it is not a position which will meet the approbation of the people of this Province, and I hope the Govern- ment will reconsider the matter, and at least foreshadow some action in tlie future with reference to these Colleges. Before taking my seat, there is on© other point to which I wish to allude, and that is, that this is not a party question. We were not a little surprised to hear that the chairman of a very respectable gathering which took place in this city some months ago, — a man, who, above all ©thers, we expected to be hostile (the chairman of the con- 74 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. vention of 18G7) — that lie had lieaded a long petition in favor of ■■«- THE COLLEGE QUPlSTIoN. 7« DR. McGILUS SPEECH. and Dr. M(;GILL said — After comment on rcnir.rkfi of previous speakers con- tinued as follows:— The subject before the house, sir, has assumed many different phases. We have had an original resolution and then an amend- ment to thiit resolution, and are threatened with another amendment. (Hear. ) In the discussion it has been acknowledged that we have a Provincial national Univur^ity. That ought to be distinctly and clearly understood. But if we were to bo governed by the letter of the resolution before the House, and if we were at liberty to draw from it its legitimate inference, we would infer that we have not any Provincial University, and, further, that we would have to go to work and destroy that which I term our Provincial Univer- sity. First, we ask to go to Avork to tear down this Provincial University — and then to build it up. That seems to me a singular way of mendhig matters. We have this University. Confessedly it is a credit to its founders, no matter wlio they were, or what country they Avere from; and not only is it a credit to its founders, but is the delight and beauty of this city, and the glory of the Province. I say, sir, we ought to be proud of it — not alone on accoimt of its exterior beauty, but because of its adaptability to the end for which it is designed. Having this University, what I would ask, is the sense of this cry about a ProAuncial University. I sec no sense in it. And not only have we thi,s University, but all the Colleges have tne privilege of affilia- tion with it. That they have not availed themselves of that privilege is plain to all, and the reason why, we have been told over and over again to-night. But no reason satisfactoi*y to me, at least, why this affiliation has not taken place. It has been said that it was becrAise the Colleges found they were not going to receive as much from affiliation as they expected. But there were other reasons, and in order that the matter may stand out in bold relief befere all, I will allude to them before I conclude. Within the past few days I have had an opportunity of liearing, seeing and feeling that the old suspicion still lurks in the bosoms t)f many in regard to this University. It is still spoken of by them as the godless University. A few days ago, a person of high respectability, who ought to understand all about it, said to me, in a quiet way, — "Is it not a pity that our young men shoidd be obliged to inhale for so long a time such an unwholesome spiritual atmosphere as is there" — in the University. I was very much pained to hear the remark. Biit I am satisfied, regarding that institution, that the same :ii"' 70 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. feeling pervades the bosoms of a great many individuals, with regard to the moral character of the University ; and if that feeling is i)revalent, I feel just as certain of another point, and that is, that that feeling is sought to be perpetuated, and is widely circulated to injure the University. Taking this view I hold that the bounden duty of every fair and honorable friend to the University, should be to examine such a charge. Let xis look at it for a moment. What does it mean ? What do wo find in regard to the University ? That it has Avithin it men of the highest respectability, talent and learning, is never d.ubted. Their morality, who doubts ? Their religious character who d(Hibts / I am credibly informed that all the gentlemen composing the faculty are members of some religious com- munity or other, — and that all who attend the University — all the yoting men resident in it — are regular attendants on religious duties, and that sedulous attention is paid to the moral conduct and leai'ning of the young men ; .and, in line, in no case have I been able to find any triith in the insinuation against this University. (Hear, hear.) T was sorry during the debate to hear it so often insisted upon that Toronto ought not to be a point of centralization. Now, there m\ist be some point of centralization in the Province, and can any lion, gentleman point to one more fitting than the City of Toronto — the cajjital of the Province — and in every way favorably situated for being a point of centralization. What is the meaning of decentralization ? Simply, that a great many of the sources of information, entertainment and improvement, that we always look for in every country at some particular point, should be scattered and divided over a number of places. But such a policy, in the case before us, would inev- itably be a great mistake. And if Toronto is a point of centralization, one central institution ought to be here. I do not say it is the point where all the Colleges ought to centre — though even in that case it might be better, as if you dilute this thing too much, its xisefulness must be impaired. Again, it was urged these Colleges could not affiliate with Toronto University, be- cause it was a nest of extravagance, and by u,ffiliating, they would only recognise and endorse that extravagance. I have been shown a long array of expenditvu'e in bricks, mortar, &o., and have been asked to believe that expenditure to have been a reason why affiliation has not taken place. I was sorry, sir, to hear that argument brought up, and put in a way so prejudicial to the interests of the University. From information which I have, I believe there has been a good deal of extravagance of that kind ; but that is all past and gone ; and I say, let by-gones be by-gones. I am satisfied that at present the expenditure of University College is prudent and well managed. These, sir, are the reasons offered, accounting for the want of affiliation, but I contend they are not reasons which ought to be entertained. Of course, in the excitement now going on, there has been a system of affiliation proposed, and some of the speakers on this subject have THE COLLEdE QUESTION. 77 been at u gruut losa to discover a nyHtum of aililiation. But I was made acquainted with a system of this kind in contemphition by some of these parties. It is, that there shall bo affiliation — as the member for Algoma has termed it — (m conditi(jns ; and the ccmditicms are these : That a certain denomination shall subscribe, say .*! 100,000, which they shall put into the hands of the Government — and Government is to bo asked to giiarantoo the interest arising from this doixisit, about $0,000 or 88,000« They give the Government a certain sum as a guarantee for their continued existence and Government gives them an equivalent. That is the scheme proposed. But I say it is worse than before. Insvead of being satisfied with the old grant, they now come forward boldly and ask a larger amount, and \hcy iisk that that amount shall be made permanent ; and, to crown all, they are to ask all this without gving iip their denominational charac- ter. Now, notice the position in which this plan places matters. There are very few denominations in the Province which could raise the amoimt I have mentioned. T doubt, indeed, if more than one could raise it. The smaller denominations will certainly not be able to raise it. Many of them could not raise more than ^20,000, 830,000 or $50,000. Many would be unable to raise any ; many, unwilling. Thus all parties not coming \ip to a standard made sufficiently high, would find themselves shut out, and the smaller denominations would bo all efiectually ex- cluded. And, in fact, if this principle were to bo acted upon, we would bo only helping those who were in every way al)le to help themselves. (Hear, and cheei's.) This scheme, I am informed, has received a good deal of atten- tion, and subscriptions have been raised to cany it out, or so;.»e similar one. But I appeal to the House to know if tliif5 is a scliomo which can meet the diffi- culty. It will Ud", do away with the odiousness attached to denominational grants. It will not in any way solve the i)roblem before us. (Hear, hear.) I now desire to address myself to another point. I will make a statement or two, which will seem astounding ; and in doing so, no doubt I will be cried down as unorthodox. In order to api)roach my subject, I want to say that we have in Ontario now, besides University College, six graduating bodies and five non-graduating bodies, besides eight colleges : and I maintain that that is a nuich larger number than we require. (Hear.) Now the astounding .statement I am going to make is this, that if these six graduating bodies were blotted out of existence, as graduating bodies, mind you— it would bo a great boon to the cause of higher education. I do not, Mr. Speaker, say this from party or personal feeling. I disclaim every particle of anythin;; like it. But as one who has given the subject close consideration for some time jjast, I have arrived at the conclusion that it would bo a decided advance- ment of the cause of higher education, if these six graduating bodies — as graduating bodies — were blotted out of existence. (Hear, hear.) Let them all be transformed into good high schools, and they would be of incom- 78 TllL COLLEdK QUKSTION. parably uinrc itn1)lic buiiefit than at present. The five other noii-yrudimting boilioH, Nvhi» are not clamoring for aid, are, I will take it upon me to say. doing as much good as those who have come before ns. I c(jnie to Ihifi concluBion, becanse on examining and taking full information in regard to the capacity of the University and of University College, I Jind thoi'e sufticient ca[)acity in every respect, whether as to room, the Faculty, or any other jiarticuhvr, to meet the re(juirement?j of all who desire to be taught at prefiuiit in tlie higher branches of university education. (Hear, liear.) I am told « n good authority that this university is able to accommodate from 800 t(» 1,000 students. Tell mo that tliat is not ample for all the students in these six gi'aduating bodies I Going east, wo tind that the I'niversity of Kingston graduates about ten, Victoria College about ten, Trinity about the same number, and the University about twenty every year ; and if the University canacc(»nnno- date the number I have referred to, is it not far more than is needed ( And not only is this the case, but in tlie event of the students all coming hither, they would receive their education under much more fav()ral)Ie advantages than at present. (Hear.) This, Sir, is my opinion, and I am v.illiugto take all the respoasibility of it. I charge upon the muUii)lication of these colleges a great deal of mischief, in various ways. First, it does a great deal of harm to University College. If that institution had not had to contend with all that it has had to contend with in this way, it would have been in a very different position to-day, and wotdd have been beyond the cry of suspicion — would have been above the envious feelings which so seriously interfei'e with it. It is marvellous, in my estimation, that, under the circumstances, it has been enabled to bring Avithin its '.\alls so many respectable young men a» it has done. A cuiniter interest works all over the country, and says, " Do not touch that Godless University." Is it not marvellous that in the face of a stigma of this kind the University gradually increases ? (Hear.) I oh. .1^0 further upon the miUtiplication of these colleges, that it is doing a positive .'njury in the way of lowering the standard of higher education. That is till, legitimate tendency which always follows an undue multiplica- tion of sucli institutions in any country. I cliai'ge also another evil on thia vindue multipl cation of colleges, and that is the precipitating oi- inducing a larger munber of young men to run after a higher education. Jt may seem paradoxical, but I state it as my conviction that we have too many young men in our country running after higher education — trying to get "B, A." and "M. A." tixed to their names ; — adopting this ccmrse notwithstanding the more matter-of-fact, stern realities of life. They spend time und moans in this way, and leave undeveloped the real material interests of their own pei-sons and the ctmntry. What is the conseiiuence .' We are not improved in any sense by it. Physically, wo are far from being improved. Our young men of the present day will not favoral)ly compare with those of twenty-five years past. And that is not all : but this running alter higlitr education, THK COLLEGE Ql'ESTIoN. 79 yoiuiij r where it is luit roally noedcd, loads many yimug muii into iiUoness. They wouUl all be toachora, cKiritfyiniMi, doctoiH, hiwyers, or elorkH ; and the fact iH tliat, if thiri .f th 1 j,'oo3 (in, while the material interesta of the conntry remain undovel(i[it'd, we must bo lost men direcUy. NN'hat wo have really to decide is wlicther there is any neeessity for another l-niverHity Colleye. 1 take it for granted tiiat tiie law provides that when the neeesaity arisoa there may be more than one University C(dleL;e. And, assumiii^' there in a necessity for another University, I say lot it bo established. I bit let it be establixbod in tho riyht way — not as a Denominational CoUuyc, but one under Hie Uonti'ol of tho Govern- ment, let it be establiiihed in Coltoiirg, Kingston or elsewhere. But my candid opinion is that for 50 years to come there will not bo any need for such an institution; and that if we had the hiyh schools I have referred to, and our C(»nnnon schools and grammar schools, I am sure we would boas well educated a country a.s is under tho sun, England has been refen'ed to, during this debate, with licr great number of CoUtges; but 1 take it upon me to say that if England had not so many Colleges — if she had not so many high semi- naries — and if she paid more attention to common school education, her people would be bettor educated, with all her Colkgos — with 13 affiliated round one University and 17 round another, — it is astounding to find that they have tho merest handfiil of students; and though having uU these Colleges, England is A>y no means the educated country that she ought to be. Con- sidering her ago and wealth and the amount she expends in education, she is far below tho standard she ought to hav« attained. Still, I trust that with us, whenever tho time comes that more than one Universiiy College will bo needed, tho Government will see tho prt)in'iety of establishing more. I would not hurt a hair of the head of ono of these institutions. But now is the time to stop it. Never again will occur a time when it can bo so easily stopped as n(jw. The Government of the day are respcmsible if they allow this opportune time to pass away. A great deal of the ill feeling now pervading the countn regaixling this subject is, of course, due to tho proportions it assiimed u conseqiience of our connection with Lower Canada The system never would have attained its i>resent di- mensions but for (mr ccmnection wiw anything of my constitiients, I knuw that the large majority of them are favorable to ;mstaining the Government view of the question. (Hear, hear.) I am verj' much surprised at the member for Algoma taking up the time of the House to-day for four or five hours in speaking of superior education. It would look better if the hon. gentleman would ask the Government to establish three or four common schools in the district of Algoma. (Loxid laughter.) I think that the inhabitants of Algoma w(mld be better satisfied if their member procured for them three school teachers, than with his niaking all this clamor about superior education. (Laughter.) Let us first of all see the people in our rural districts better provided with common school education. For my i»rt I endorse the views of the member for South Bruce on this (question, and, I must add, that I think that on the Avhole Ave cut a sorry figiire here to-night. We haA^e been sitting for hours listening to members who seek to make us swerve from the course Ave adopted last Session. I am satisfied hon. gentlemen hi the ranks of the opposition (avIio support the Government on this (piestion) nnist have been amused to see so many on our side of the House acting in this way. Mr. BLAKE—My amendment, I understood, could not be formally placed before the House until Ave had first disposed of part of the proposition of the member for Wellaiul ; but the Attorney General infonns me that the practice in our House, in this respect, is not that laid down by May. J, iherefore. place the amendment in your hands at once. (J 82 THE COLLEGE QUESTION. Mr. SINCLAIR roso, ainitl cries of "(luestiun," and said — 1 do not con- sider that the House should bring this discussion to a conclusion -with- out allowing every member who desires to speak an opportunity to be heard. (Hoar, hear.) I profess not to be in the same box with the member for Algoma and certain other members ; and I wish that to be understood. The member for Algoma professes to be averse to sectarian grants, but speaks ominously of what may happen if religious liberty is interfered with. I think his views of religious liberty are veiy peculiar. (Hear, hear.) There are people of religious denominations who have suffered a good deal in the way of deprivation, but I am not aware that therefore they seek the liberty of putting their hr.nds into the public purse. All that they want, as a general thing, is that tlieir liberty slumldbelet alone — that the State should give aid to neither one religious denomination nor another. (Hear.) Nor can I say that I understand the position of the member for South Bruce. At any rate, his position is such as to commend itself to the member for Soixth Grey, and that, of itself, was rather suspicious. (Laughter.) For my jmrt, I altogether object to the sustenance of any educational institution connected with, or under the control of, any denomination, through the aid of State money. If there is any necessity for the endowment of colleges — if Univer- sity College is insufficient — it would be riglit for the Htmso to take that matter under consideration. But the country re<|uircs that if they are en- dowed, it nmst be on the non -denominational basis on Avliich the common scluxjls are foiuided. If any educational institutions are required to siipple- ment those in use, I think this House will be willing to give aid to such institutions, but they must be formed on the non-sectarian principle. Enter- taining these views, Mr. Speaker, I have gi-eat pleasure in supporting the resf)lution of the member for Lincoln. (Cheei's.) Mr. GOW— I liave much pleasure in seconding the amendjuent to the amendment. I am opposed to sectarian or denominational <.^"ants, and tliink that that sentiment prevails largely in this House and tlu-oiighout tlie Province of Ontario, and the sooner the gentlemen agitating this question become aware of this fact, the l)etter for themselves and for uh. I also prefer the amendment of the member for South Bruce, inasnnicli as 1 am i)repared to consider any well defined scheme to promote, extend n.jul pvt)tect <>iir present system of education. Mr. CLARKE— As the mover of the .)riginal resolutions, desired to say that these rcBolutif ns afKrined tiie desirability of having a more efficient system of education than that which now exists. Some gentleiiien in the H(mse Avho o]iposed them, chose to attack us on the Denominational College, Imt, on the matter being discusseil, v,e disclaimed any desire to seek for these grants ; ;tnd I maintain that those who think with me ought to support the reH<.lution of the membcx- for Soxith Bruce. If the House affirms sul)- mi THE COLLEGE QUESTION. 83 the lliink it the jstitiu uvfor i;u'C'(l 't our ti) say iHcieut ill the (illcge, ok for upport 18 siili- atantially the position taken in my resolutions, it is a juatter of very little consideration at whf)se instance such affirmation be made. 1 ha\e, there- fore, no objection to the resolution of the member for ScnitJi Bruce. (Hear, hear.) Mr. RYKERT — I think the member for South Bruce gives gentlemen in favor of sectarian education an opportunity of creeping out of their former resolution. But they will find a notice in the paper of a resolution which will bring them to the test before the session is over. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FERGUSON. — I would like to ask what is the difference between the amendment and the original resolution. The mover of the original I'esohition dechires them to be one and the same thing, and that he is willing to go for them. All the change, it appears to me is in the one word ' ' gradua- tion," at the close of the amendment, which is substituted for "education " in the original resolution. I ask therefore if the last amendment is in order ( The Speaker ruled that it was. The amendment of the member for South Biuco was then put and carried (amidst ai)plause) on the following divi.sion : Yeas. — Messieurs Barber, Baxter, Beatty, Blake, Boulter, Boyd, Cameron, C'arling, Carnegio, Clarke, Clemens, Cockburn, Colquhoun, Cook, Coyne, Craig (Glengarry), Crosby, Cumberland, Currie, Evans, Eyre, Finlayson^ Fitzsimmons, Gibbons, Goav, Graham (Hastings), Grahame (York), Greely, Hays, Hooper, Lauder, Lount, Lyon, IMacdonald, Matchett, McDougall, McGill, McKellar, McLeod, McMurrich, Pardee, Paxton, Perry, Read, Richards, Scxt(jn, Shaw, Sinclair, Smith (Kent), Smith (Middlesex), Supple, Swinarton, Trow, Wigle, Williams (Durham), Williams (Hamiltun), Wilson, tand W(jud. — 58. Nays. — Messieurs Calvin, Craig (Russell), Ferguson, Luton, Monteith, McCall (Norfolk), McColl (Elgin), Rykert, Scott (Grey), Secord, Springer, and Tett.— 12. Mr Rykert's amendment to the amendment, was then put and carried, on the following division :— yeo.s; — Messieur." Barber, Baxter, Beatty, Blake, Boulter, Boyd, Cameron, Carling, Carnegie, Clarke, Clemens, Cockburn, Colquhoun, Cook, Cojnie Craig (Glengai'iy), Crosby, Cumberland, C'urrie, Evans, Eyre, Finlayson, Fitzsimmons, CJibbons, Gow, Graham, (Hastings), Grahame (York), Greely, Hays, Hooper, Lauder, Lount, Lyon, Macdonald, 'Matchett, McDougall, McGill, McKellar, McLeod, McIMurrich, Pardee, Paxton, Perrj'^, Read, Richards, Sexton, Shaw, Sinclair, Smith (Kent), Smith (Middlesex), Springer, 84 THE C'OLLE(il': QUESTION. Supple, Swinarton, Trow, Wigle, WillianiH (Durhiua), Williams (Hamilton), Wilson, 'and Wood.- -50, Nayk : — Messieurs Calvin, Craig (Russell), Ferguson, Fraser, Luton, Mon- teith, McCall (Norfolk), McColl (Elgin), llykert, Scott (Grey), Secord, and Tett.— 12. ATTORNEY GENERAL MACD(.)NALD rose before the original motion was put and said — It is with high satisfaction I ha^ e noticed that the House has afHrmed that policy which we placed on the statiite and which was among the very first acts submitted by the Administratiim to the House last Session. (Cheei'S.) ^Ve liave been handsomely sustained; and I have only to say that we still adhere to the policy of last year. The G(ivernment pre- ferred on this occasion to take no part in the debates of the House. Hon. members took up the cudgels for us so well that we gladly availed ourselves f>f their arguments. 1 have nothing more to say than to thank the House for the handsome measure of approval tliey have accorded us. (Cheers.) Mr. FERGUSON — It might be inferred from the remarks of the Attorney- Genaral that those A'oting against tlie amendment of the member for South Bruce, voted against the policj^ of the Government last Januaiy, by which they declared against sectarian grants. Now, I for one, am as strongly opiX)sed to these grants, and 1 claim the right to say for myself and othci;' tliat in voting against the resolution, vc are as stron:;ly opposed to sectarian grants as any of the gentlemen opposite. I opposed these - ...'its when it were almost a crime to oppose, them. I did it on the princivio that all denomina- tions should bri equal — that while great institutions r;oeive(] tUeir df)le from the public, the small ones shoiild not be neglected. A few other members having explained their vote on the (question, the House divided on the original resolutioi as amended — which was carried on the followhig division : — Yeas: — Messieurs Barber, Baxter, Beatty, Blake, Boulter, Boj-d, Calvin, Cameron, Carling, Carnegie, Clarke, Clemens, Cockburn, C(»lquhoun, Cook, CojTie, Craig (Glengarry), Craig (Russell), Crosby, Cimiberland, Currie, Evans, Eyre, Fhilayson, Fitzsimnioiis, Fraser, Gibbons, (tow, Graham, (Hasting i', 'rraharr" (York), (ircely, Hays, Hooper, Lauder, Lount, Luton, Lyon, MacuLiiwId. Mati^h-itt, Montt'ith, McDougall, McGill, McKellaiv McLeod, McMvT-ich, Pardee, Paxton, Perry, Read, Richards, Rykert, Scott, (Gveyi ",.->■ t(.n, 3haw, Shidair, Si lith (Kent), Smitli (Middlesex), Springer, Snj>pli. Sw'lntti'ton, Trow, Wigle, Williams (Durham"), Williams (Hamilton) 'V i«oi n*l Wood rd — 4. V(i-:-H0^.')., McCall (Norfolk), McColl (Elgin), and The House the), vij'.'.uncd.