A second defence of the propositions by which the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is so explained according to the ancient fathers, as to speak it not contradictory to natural reason : in answer to a Socinian manuscript, in a letter to a friend : together, with a third defence of those propositions, in answer to the newly published reflexions, contained in a pamphlet, entituled, A letter to the reverend clergy of both universities / both by the author of those propositions. Fowler, Edward, 1632-1714. 1695 Approx. 146 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A40088 Wing F1715 ESTC R6837 12911817 ocm 12911817 95338 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A40088) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 95338) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 982:17) A second defence of the propositions by which the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is so explained according to the ancient fathers, as to speak it not contradictory to natural reason : in answer to a Socinian manuscript, in a letter to a friend : together, with a third defence of those propositions, in answer to the newly published reflexions, contained in a pamphlet, entituled, A letter to the reverend clergy of both universities / both by the author of those propositions. Fowler, Edward, 1632-1714. [8], 64 p. Printed for B. Aylmer ..., London : 1695. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Attributed to Edward Fowler. cf. NUC pre-1956. The "Socinian manuscript" was submitted to Fowler by Giles Firmin. Errata: p. [2] Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Tindal, Matthew, 1653?-1733. -- Letter to the reverend clergy of both universities. Trinity -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2003-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-09 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-10 Rina Kor Sampled and proofread 2003-10 Rina Kor Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Second Defence OF THE Propositions , By which the DOCTRINE of the Holy Trinity Is so Explained , according to the Ancient Fathers , As to speak it not Contradictory to Natural Reason . In ANSWER to A Socinian Manuscript , In a LETTER to a Friend . Together , With a Third Defence of those Propositions , in Answer to the Newly published Reflexions , contained in a Pamphlet , Entituled , A Letter to the Reverend Clergy of Both Universities . Both by the Author of those Propositions . London , Printed for B. Aylmer at the Three Pidgeons in Cornhil , 1695 ERRATA . PAge 16. Line 27. dele is . P. 20. l. 23. for doth read do . P. 32. l. 22. for that proceed from the Sun r. that proceeds , without the Sun. P. 33. l. 9. for Pooceed r. Proceed . P. 37. l. 3. for Stages r. Stage ) . l. 5. for Soul ) r. Souls . P. 46. l. 17. for Incorporal r. Incorporeal . P. 49. l. 1. for does r. do . THE PREFACE . THE Propositions relating to the Doctrin of the H. Trinity , were but Twenty-one when the Manuscript mentioned in the Title-Page , was writ against them : But all the Twenty-eight , which since came out , are implyed in them . And I acknowledge that those Written Papers occasioned my making them so many more , to put the Explication more out of danger of Misconstruction . There is likewise some difference in the Wording of those Twenty-one and the Title , and two or three small Additions , but the Sence of both is Exactly the same . Those I drew up in Compliance with a Gentleman of as great Worth as Quality , who requested me to give him in Writing the Sence , he once heard me Affirm to be the most Ancient , of this Grand Article of our Faith ; and in my Opinion incomparably Preferrable to the Later Hypotheses . And falling into this Method , of Expressing , Clearing , and Confirming the Fathers Notion of the Trinity , by Propositions , I delivered , when I had finished them , a fair Copy of them to that Gentleman , and gave my foul one to a Friend , who needed Satisfaction about this Great Point . This Person , some time after , brought me from a Socinian Acquaintance of his , an Answer to my Paper , Concealing his Name from me : and I sent him my Thoughts of his Performance , as soon as my Occasions would permit me to Consider it ; which are contained in the next following Defence . Only in what I now Publish , I abridge a little in a few places of what I writ , nor is there any other Considerable Alteration . And as I Printed not more than an Hundred Copies of the Propositions , till I Reply'd to the Answer to them , a while since Publish'd by Another Hand ; So the now Coming Abroad of This Answer , is Solely Occasion'd by the New Reflections . But if it be thought no fair dealing with my Adversary , that I do not Publish also his Papers , I have this to Say , I have them not to Publish , but returned them at His desire , who brought them to me , not thinking it worth the while to take a Copy of them , since I had not then a Thought of ever Printing my Reply . But if I have played any Tricks in Transcribing what I Animadvert upon ( which is the Substance of the Whole ) both my Adversary and his Friend are able to let the World be Acquainted with them . But I Abhor such Doings . The Twenty Eight Propositions . 1. THE Name of God is used in more Sences than one in Holy Scripture . 2. The most Absolutely Perfect Being , is God in the highest Sence . 3. Self-Existence is a Perfection , and seems to be the Highest of all Perfections . 4. God the Father alone , is in reference to His Manner of Existence an Absolutely Perfect Being ; because He alone is Self-existent . 5. He alone , consequently , is absolutely Perfect , in reference to those Perfections , which do presuppose Self-Existence . 6. Those Perfections are Absolute Independence , and Being the First Original of all other Beings : In which the Son and the Holy Ghost are comprehended . 7. All Trinitarians do acknowledg , That these Two Persons are from God the Father . This is affirmed in that Creed which is called the Nicene , and in that which falsly bears the Name of Athanasius : tho' with this difference , that the Holy Ghost is asserted in them , to be from the Son as well as from the Father . Wherein the Greek Church differs from the Latin. 8. It is therefore a flat Contradiction , to say that the Second and Third Persons are Self Existent . 9. And therefore it is alike Contradictions , to affirm them to be Beings Absolutely Perfect in reference to their Manner of Existence ; and to say that they have the Perfections of Absolute Independence , and of being the First Originals of all things . 10. Since the Father alone is a Being of the most Absolute Perfection , He having those Perfections which the other Two Persons are uncapable of having ; He alone is God in the Absolute Highest Sence . 11. And therefore our blessed Saviour calls Him , The Onely True God , Joh. 17. 3. This is Life Eternal , to know Thee the onely True God , and Jesus Christ , whom Thou hast sent . And it is most Absurd to think , That in these Words , and the following Prayer , He did address himself to the Three Persons of the Trinity conjunctly , since throughout the Prayer He calls this Onely True God his Father ; and calls Himself twice His Son , before these Words . Not to mention the Absurdity of making our Lord to pray to Himself , or of distinguishing Himself from those Three , of which Himself was One. If such a Liberty as this , in interpreting Scripture , be allowable , what Work may be made with Scripture ! 12. Our Lord calls the Father , The Onely True God , because He only is Originally , and of Himself God , and the First Original of all Beings whatsoever . As he calls him the Onely Good , saying , There is none Good but God , because He alone is Originally so , and the Spring of all that Good which is in other Beings . 13. The God head , or God in this Highest Sence , can be but One Numerically . Of which the best Philosophers were satisfied by their Reason ; and therefore the Oneness so frequently affirmed of Him in Scripture is a Numerical Oneness . 14. There seems to be neither Contradiction , nor Absurdity , in supposing the First Original of all things , to be productive of other Beings so Perfect , as to have all Perfections , but that of Self-Existence , and those which are necessarily therein implyed . 15. Supposing any such Beings to have immediately issued forth from that infinite Fullness , and Foecundity of Being , which is in the Deity , each of them must have a Right to the Name of God , in a Sence next to that in which it is appropriated to the Father ; since they have all the Perfections of the Godhead , but those that must of Necessity be peculiar to Him. 16. It is evident from the Holy Scripture , That the Son and Holy Spirit are such Beings , viz. That they have all Divine Perfections but the forementioned : Such as Unlimited Power , Wisdom , Goodness , &c. 17. And they are always spoken of in Scripture , as Distinct Beings or Persons , according to the Proper Signification of this Word , both from the Father and from Each Other . Nor are so many Men or Angels more expresly distinguished as different Persons or Substances , by our Saviour or his Apostles , than the Father , Son and Holy Ghost still are . 18. It is a very presumptuous Conceit , That there can be no way but that of Creation , whereby any thing can be immediately and onely from God , which hath a distinct Existence of its own . Or , That no Beings can have Existence from Him , by way of Necessary Emanation : Of which we have a Clearer Idaea than of Voluntary Creation . It is the Word of the Ancients both Fathers and Philosophers ; nor can a better be found to express what is intended by it , viz. A more excellent way of existing , than that of Creation . 19. It is no less presumptuous to Affirm , That it is a Contradiction to suppose , That a Being can be from Eternity from God the Father , if 't is possible it may be from Him , in a more Excellent Way than that of Creation . And we have an Illustration of both these Propositions , by something in Nature . For , according to our Vulgar Philosophy , Light doth exist by necessary Emanation from the Sun , and therefore the Sun was not before the Light which proceeds from thence , in Order of Time , tho' it be in Order of Nature before it . And the Distinction between these Two Priorities , is much Elder than Thomas Aquinas , or Peter Lombard , or any School-man of them all , or Christian-man either . 20. And if any thing can be from another thing by way of Necessary Emanation , it is so far from a Contradiction to suppose , that it must only be in order of nature before it ; that 't is most apparently a Contradiction to suppose the contrary . 21. Our 18th . and 19th . Propositions do speak our Explication of the H. Trinity , to be as contrary to Arianism as to Socinianism ; since the Arians assert , That there was at least a moment of time , when the Son was not ; and that He is a Creature . 22. Altho' we cannot understand , how it should be no Contradiction to affirm , That the Three Persons are But One Numerical Being , or Substance ; yet hath it not the least shadow of a Contradiction to suppose , That there is an unconceivably close and inseparable Union both in Will and Nature between them . And such a Union may be much more easily conceived between them , than can that Union which is between our Souls and Bodies ; since these are Substances which are of the most unlike and even Contrary Natures . 23. Since we cannot conceive the First Original of All things , to be more than One Numerically ; and that we acknowledg the now mentioned Union between the three Persons , according to the Scriptures , together with the intire dependence of the two latter upon the First Person , The Unity of the Deity is , to all intents and purposes , as fully asserted by us , as it is necessary or reasonable it should be . 24. And no part of this Explication , do we think Repugnant to any Text of Scripture ; but it seems much the Easiest way of Reconciling those Texts which according to the other Hypotheses , are not Reconcilable , but by offering manifest violence to them . 25. The Socinians must needs Confess , that the Honour of the Father , for which they express a very Zealous Concern , is as much as they can desire taken care of by this Explication . Nor can the Honour of the Son and Holy Spirit be more Consulted , than by ascribing to them all Perfections , but what they cannot have , without the most apparent Contradiction ascribed to them . 26. And we would think it impossible , that any Christian should not be easily perswaded , to think as honourably of his Redeemer and Sanctifier as he can , while he Robs not God the Father for their Sake ; and offers no Violence to the Sence and Meaning of Divine Revelations , nor to the Reason of his Mind . 27. There are many things in the Notion of One God , which all Hearty Theists will acknowledg necessary to be conceived of Him , that are as much above the Reach and Comprehension of humane Understandings , as is any part of this Explication of the H. Trinity . Nay , this may be affirmed , even of the Notion of Self-Existence ; but yet there cannot be an Atheist so silly as to question it : Since it is not more Evident , that One and Two do make Three , than that there could never have been any thing , if there were not Something which was always , and never began to be . 28. Lest Novelty should be Objected against this Explication , and therefore such should be prejudiced against it , as have a Veneration for Antiquity , we add , that it well agrees with the Account which several of the Nicene Fathers , even Athanasius himself , and others of the Ancients who treat of this Subject , do in divers places of their Works give of the Trinity : as is largely shewed by two very Learned Divines of our Church . And had it not been for the School-men , to whom Christianity is little beholden , as much as some Admire them , we have reason to believe that the World would not have been troubled since the fall of Arianism , with such Controversies about this great point , as it hath been and continues to be . This Explication of the B. Trinity perfectly agrees with the Nicene Creed , as it stands in our Liturgy , without offering the least Violence to any one Word in it . Which makes our Lord Jesus Christ to be from God the Father by way of Emanation ; affirming Him to be God of God , very God of very God , and Metaphorically expressing it by Light of Light ; answerably to what the Author to the Hebrews saith of Him , Ch. 1. 3. viz. That He is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , The Effulgency of his Glory , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , The Character of his Substance : And so is as much Of one Substance with the Father , as the Beams of the Sun are with the Body of it . And since there have been of late so many Explications or Accounts Published of this most Adorable Mystery , which have had little better Success than making Sport for the Socinians , I thought it very Seasonable now to Revive That , which I affirm with great Assurance to be the most Ancient one of all ; much Elder than the Council of Nice ; and to have much the fewest Difficulties in it , and to be incomparably most agreeable to H. Scripture . The Defence , &c. SIR , I Have perused your Friends Answer to the Paper I put into your hand , and here hope to give you a satisfactory Reply to it . I shall dispatch his Preface in a few Words . He saith , that The Trinitarians have in Vain tryed their Strength against their Adversaries . And there 's no doubt of it , if their Adversaries may be Judges . As to his saying , that The Vanquished Victors are ( viz. among the Trinitarians ) for each buys his Victory with the loss of his own Explanatory Hypothesis ; I confess I have that soft place in my Head , which in his great Modesty he saith our Education has given us , that disables me to understand the Sence of that saying : And am inclined to think , that the inversion thereof would have been better Sence , how true soever it would have been , viz. The Victors vanquished are ; since it follows , for each buys his Victory , &c. And whereas he saith , That in their Unitarian Tracts , they have thrown a stone of Contention among the Trinitarians , and this stone has committed them among themselves : To pass by the Conceitedness of this latter Phrase , and the Paedantry of affecting to speak English in Latin Phrases , sound they never so untowardly , I may I hope without Offence tell him , that neither are the Socinians at a perfect Agreement in their Notions : As particularly in that Question relating to the H. Ghost , viz. Whether He be a Person or no ; or a meer Divine Vis or Energy : The Followers of Mr Biddle asserting Him to be a Person , viz. an Angel. Nor need I tell him what a Controversie hath been among them , about the Adorability of our B. Saviour ; wherein they are not of a mind yet , and I doubt never will be . And many more disagreements in their Opinions , may be instanced in , if I cared to go on upon this Topick . But what tho' the Trinitarians differ in some Particulars , in their Explication of the Trinity , so long as they agree in the main Substance ? I mean , what if they differ in Certain Notions relating to this Doctrine , wherein the H. Scriptures are Silent , so long as they are agreed in what the Scriptures Expresly say of it , or of any One of the Persons of which the Trinity consisteth ? And they All agree in giving Divine Perfections to each of them ; which the Scriptures most expresly do . And in affirming them consequently to be each of them God , which also they believe the Scriptures affirm them expresly to be . And farther they agree in believing them to be one God ; tho' they are not all agreed in what sence they are one ; nor in the Notion of the Word Person , as relating to them ; nor in their Opinion about using that Word . But if any of them have such a Value for their own Explications , as to be severe upon such as dissent from them in any of the less certain Parts of them , I will not , I cannot , Apologize for this . And now , Sir , I follow your Friend from his own Preface , to my Papers Title , which is this : An Explication of the Doctrine of the Trinity in Certain Propositions , which speak it to be Agreeable with Natural Reason , and therefore intelligible , tho' not Comprehensible by our shallow Capacities . And here he is pleased to exclaim somewhat Tragically , against my distinguishing between Intelligible , and Comprehensible . I am , saith he , perfectly Amazed at this his Distinction . I will not say , that I am Amazed at his Amazement , but it seems somewhat strange to me , that First , He should call this my Distinction , when I should think he hath heard and read it a thousand times ; Since there is no Distinction more common . And therefore , Secondly , That he should be Amazed , nay perfectly Amazed at it . And Thirdly , That he should be so , for such a Reason as this that follows , viz. That which makes a Doctrine unintelligible , is its disagreeableness to Reason ; therefore if the Doctrine of the Trinity be not disagreeable to Reason , neither is it unintelligible ; and if it be not unintelligible , neither is it incomprehensible . I Answer , That I think the Obscure Expressing a Doctrine may also make it Unintelligible : But this his Reason may be Expressed in these fewer words , I am perfectly Amazed at this Mans distinction between Intelligible and Comprehensible , because they ought not to be distinguished : Or , as he adds , because they are Synonimous , and signify one as much as the other . But sure your Friend cannot think , I should have such an Opinion of a Perfect Stranger , as to be Satisfied with his bare Word for this . He is Perfectly Amazed at my distinguishing betwixt Intelligible and Comprehensible : I ask Why ? He Answers , because they Ought not to be distinguished . But I am so Impertinent as to ask again , Why they ought not ? And he so Magisterial , as to let me have no other Answer than , I say they ought not . But he needs not be told , That tho' these two words are sometimes used in the same sence , yet not always ; but have most frequently different Significations . Comprehensible always implyes Intelligible ; but Intelligible is found Innumerable times , not to imply Comprehensible . And therefore Comprehensible is taken either in a Larger , or a Stricter Sence : And in my Distinction , as he calls it , 't is taken in the Stricter , as for the most Part it is . Even his Dictionary will tell him , that Comprehendere signifies something , that Intelligere doth not . And according to the most Proper Acceptation of the word , there is as much difference between these two , as there is , between Seeing a thing and looking through it ; or Understanding it , and Compleatly Understanding it , and having an Adoequate Preception of it . And indeed , if your Friend had Learnt Socrates his first Lesson , he would acknowledg himself so short-fighted a Mortal , as , tho' he Understands many things , not to be able to Comprehend the most Obvious ones . He would acknowledg that in this State , things are only to be Understood by their Properties , and certain Modes , and that the Naked Essence neither of a Spirit nor of a Body is known to us . In short , had I distinguished between Intelligible and Apprehensible , your Friend might have had more Cause for Amazement . Next he saith , That the Incomprehensibility of God Himself implyes no more , than what the Apostle Expresseth , when he saith , His ways are past finding out ; we cannot understand them , that signifies as much as , we cannot Comprehend them . Now it is my turn to be Amazed ; at least this Sentence must be greatly Surprizing to more Heads , than those that have ( like Trinitarians ) a soft place in them . For , First , Who hath so hard , or so large a Head , as to find only the Ways of God incomprehensible to him ? As to be able to Comprehend Gods Nature and Glorious Attributes ? Second , If Comprehending must needs be no more than Understanding , there cannot be a Proposition less true than this , That we cannot Comprehend Gods Ways ; for Mankind is Capable of Understanding them , Or GOD Almighty would never have appealed to the Jews as He did , about the Equity of His Ways . And therefore when the Apostle saith , His ways are past finding out , his meaning must be , they are not to be Comprehended by us , in our sence of the word : We cannot Grasp , or Fathom them ; they are of too great a Depth for us to dive to the Bottom of them . And now , Sir , I believe you are sufficiently Prepared to Wonder , if not to be Amazed at this following Saying of your Friend , viz. It were a very hard thing , that a Law should be passed , postnate to a Crime , on purpose for the taking off one particular Offender ; and 't is as Unreasonable , that a Distinction should be Coyned ( viz. this between Intelligible and Comprehensible ) purely for the service of a particular Mystery ; and when that is done , can be of no further use , unless new Mysteries were to be Created . And I Appeal to your self , as much as you may be byassed by Affection to your Friend , not only whether All he hath said about this Distinction , be not unaccountably strange , but likewise , whether I have not given a more than sufficient Answer to the Request he makes me in these words : Ignorant , or Unthinking People , may be Cheated with an Empty verbal distinction , but since A. T. ( by which Letters he all along decyphereth me , and I understand he means by them the Anonymous Trinitarian ) offers his Explanation to satisfie men that are Knowing , as well as Religious , Scholars as well as Christians , I must beg him to assign the difference between these two words , Intelligible and Comprehensible . And he guesseth what Answer I will make , in these words ; I am apt to think that he will tell me , we can well understand that this Proposition is true , Three are One ; but we cannot understand the Manner how Three should be One : And then makes this Reply upon me , Now he might as well say , we comprehend the Truth of this Proposition , but we do not understand the manner ; but then what becomes of his Distinction ? But he might have saved himself the pains of putting words into my Mouth , and then Replying upon them : For you have seen he is much out in his Guess what I would Answer ; and if he were not , I should be content to be told that I have more than One soft place in my Head. For what should ayl me to offer at an Explication of the Doctrine of the Trinity , agreeable with Natural Reason , if I did Think what he would have me Say , That 't is impossible to understand the Manner how Three should be One ? And now he saith , He will take his leave of my Title , with these two Propositions . 1. Three are One , is not true in a sence that is disagreeable to Reason ; and the sence of a Proposition that is not disagreeable to Reason is Intelligible and Comprehensible . To which he must needs , by this time , expect this Reply , It is Intelligible , but 't is not therefore Comprehensible . 2. He that understands the Truth of a Proposition , understands the manner in which it is true ; and he which does not understand the manner in which a Proposition is true , does not understand the Truth of a Proposition , but takes it on Authority . This Proposition of his is worded very oddly , I cannot make better sence of it , than by thus expressing it : He who assents to the Truth of a Proposition , understands the sence in which it is true ; but he that does not understand the sence , does not assent to a Proposition , but assents to it upon Authority . Now the former part of this Proposition is sence , but nothing to the present purpose ; but the latter is neither to the purpose nor sence ; as I need not inform you . And now , Sir , your Friend is at length come to my Propositions . As Prop. 1. God is a Being Absolutely Perfect . To this he saith All Theists agree it . Prop. 2. That Being which wants any one Perfection , cannot be Absolutely Perfect . That is , in the strictest sence of that Phrase , as I afterwards explained my self . And he saith , that this Proposition is self-evident ; as who sees not that so it is ? But his Consequence is so far from being so , that it is a false one , viz. Therefore our B. Saviour is not God , but in a Metaphorical sence , &c. But had he had but a little Patience , he might quickly have seen , that notwithstanding Our Lord is not Self-Existent , there is no necessity of his being God only in a Metaphorical Sence . Prop. 3. Self-Existence is a Perfection , and seems to be the Highest ; it being an Abatement of any other Perfections Greatness and Excellency , tho' in it self Boundless , not to be Originally in Him who hath it , but derivatively . To this he saith , That Self-Existence does not only seem , but is the Highest Perfection . This he might perceive I could have told him , as well as he me ; but 't is no fault to express our selves a little Modestly , tho' he all along seems to be of another mind . But whereas he here saith , that Creatures Perfections are improperly so Called , with respect to the Creatures ; as he afterwards found , I by no means acknowledg , either the Son , or . H. Ghost to be Creatures , so we have only his word for it , that the Perfections of Creatures are improperly so called with respect to them . Prop. 4. God th Father alone ( strictly speaking ) is a Being Absolutely Perfect , because he alone is Self Existent ; and all other Beings , even the Son and Holy Ghost are from Him. This All Trinitarians do acknowledg , and is Asserted both in the Nicene Creed , and that which bears the Name of Athanasius . This Proposition too must needs down with your Friend , but he likes not the Parenthesis , Strictly Speaking , and saith he is very suspicious of it , not that he thinks A. T. inserted it to help a Cause off the Weakness , whereof he was Jealous , but yet to make his Scheme the more Accountable . I thank the Gentleman for being so Modest in this Wipe ; but he could not wonder , had he read to the end of my Propositions before he Entred on his Animadversions , that I should here insert the foresaid Parenthesis . For I do affirm the Son and H. Ghost to be Absolutely Perfectly Beings , in reverence to the Perfections of their Nature ; that is , that they are all Boundless and Infinite ; and that they have All perfections they Can have , without a Contradiction ; and those are all but Self Existence , and what necessarily follows upon it , viz. Being the First Original of All things ; and I add too Absolute independence . But more of this anon . The Four next Propositions , he hath no Controversy with me about . But now , Sir , Comes a Proposition that makes your Friend tearingly Angry , viz. Prop. 9. A Being which hath all the Divine Perfections , that are Capable of being Communicated , may be properly said to be Essentially God , upon the account of those Perfections ; or to be indued with the Divine Nature . This he calls a Gross Proposition , because it Contradicts , not only Common Sence and Reason , but even all that A. T. hath Advanced . This is , Sir , a Heavy Charge , but we must wait a while before he makes it out , that This Proposition is Contradictory to Common Sence and Reason ; for he thus goes on : He had advanced , that God is a Being Absolutely Perfect : That a Being which wants any one Perfection , can not be Absolutely Perfect : That Self-Existence is the Highest Perfection : That Jesus Christ and the H. Ghost are not Self - Existent : That they depend on God the Father : That God the Father is the Original ( he should have said the First Original ) of all things : And that He can be but one Numerically . He should have said , that God , in this Highest of Sences , can be but one Numerically . And now he saith , that Point-blank against all this , A. T. affirms that a Being which is not Absolutely Perfect , which wants Self Existence , which wants the Highest Perfection , which derives it self from God , which depends on God the Original of all things , who is but one Numerically , may be Properly said to be Essentially God , upon the account of some Perfections ( for two it seems are not Communicated ) or to be induced with the Divine Nature . Now , Sir , what a Multiplying of words is here ! Which wants Self-Existence , Which wants the Highest Perfection , Which derives it self from God ; as if these Three were more than One thing : Tho I had no such Expression neither as , derives it self from God. And he is a little Injurious to me too , in representing me as Saying , that the Son and Holy Ghost have only some Perfections , notwithstanding the following Parenthesis ; whereas he knows he ought to have represented me as saying , That they have all that are Capable of being Communicated ; which are all but Self-Existence , and what is necessarily therein Implyed . And I say , that this is not Capable of being Communicated , because there is not a more Gross Contradiction , than to say it is . But how is this Proposition Point-blank Contrary to my foregoing ones ? This Question he Answers by Askking Questions . For he next saith , he must make bold to ask me these following Questions : And I will answer them , as well as I can , as he asks them . Quest. 1. Doth the Divine Nature Comprehend all Perfections ; or can it want one or two of the Chiefest , and be still the same Divine Nature ? I Answer , that the Divine Nature doth Comprehend all Perfections ; but Self Existence is a Perfection relating immediately to the Fathers Existence ; not to His Nature or Essence ; it speaking the most Excellent Manner of Existing peculiar to Himself . Even as Adam's Coming into Being by Gods immediate Creation , speaks not the Humane Nature in him , a different Nature from that of his Posterity , tho it spakes his Person to have an Excellency above all that have come into the World by Ordinary Generation : And as the Humane Nature of our B. Saviour is not of a different kind from other Mens , because he came by it in a Supernatural way , so , I say , God the Father's Existence being without a Cause , doth not make him to have another sort of Nature , from that of the Son and H Ghost ; Which may be a Necessary Nature , and Uncreated , and be Constituted of all the Boundless Perfections , of which the Nature of the Father Consists abstracted from the Consideration of the manner of His Existence , notwithstanding whatsoever your Friend can Object against the Possibility thereof : And notwithstanding any thing I have said in my first 8. Propositions , this may be asserted , without danger of being caught at Contradicting my self ; as I hope you 'l be Convinc't anon . And now for his next Question . Quest. 2. Can the Divine Nature be Communicated to a Being , when less than all Perfections are Communicated to it ? I Answer , that if you 'l read again what I have said to the Former Question , you will find there needs no other Answer to this . But I must blame the wording of this Question , because it seems to suppose Prae Existent Beings to which the Divine Nature is Communicated . Whereas the possibility of the Existence of other Beings from God the Father , which have the Perfections of his own Nature , is that which is to be understood by the Communicableness of those Perfections . Quest. 3. Can a Being that depends on God , be properly said to be Essentially that God , on whom it depends ? I Answer , that such a Being can be properly said to be Essentially that God in one sence , but cannot in another . i. e. It can have an Essence of the same kind , tho' not the same Numerical one . Quest. 4. Can a Being that distinguisheth it self from the Only True God , be properly said to be Essentially that God , who is the Onely True God , and but one Numerically ? I Answer , that because he loves needlesly to Multiply Questions , I am not obliged so to Multiply Answers . And this being the self-same with the other Question , I have given my Answer to it . And now I hope the Gentleman may be satisfied of the true reason of my Parenthesis in the 4th . Proposition ; Namely , because the Son and H. Ghost may be Absolutely Perfect as to their Nature , abstracted as I said from the Consideration of the manner of their Existence ; wherein yet they may be said infinitely to Excel even Arch-Angels : These Existing by voluntary Creation , but those by Necessary Emanation : Which is the Word of the Ancients , and I cannot find a better , to Express what is intended by it , viz. a more Excellent manner of Existence , than that of Creation . Which Thousands of Persons , no whit inferiour to the greatest Masters of Reason , the Socinians can bost of ( both Ancient and Modern , Divines and Philosophers ) have not thought deserves to be Scoffed at , as Non-sence and a Contradiction to Natural Reason , as much as it is above the Comprehension thereof ; and is every whit as intelligible as are many Notions relating to the DEITT , in which all true Theists as well as Christians are agreed ; and also as are not a few relating to our own Souls , their Powers and Faculties , and their Union with , and influence upon , our Bodies ; and as are innumerable Notions too relating to Material things , which an Experimental Philosopher cannot doubt the truth of . In the next place , Sir , your Friend saith , he despairs of hearing a wise Word answered to these Questions , viz. the forementioned . But I will not say , where was his Wisdom then , when he askt them ; because you will Reply , they are however wise Questions , if they serve to Expose the Trinitarian to whom they are put , and to make his Explication of the Doctrine of the Trinity down right Non-sence . But I Reply , let the Unbyassed Readers judge of this ; and Sir I heartily wish , that your Self may be one of them . And whereas he saith , that he will do what he can , to prevent troubling ( that is my troubling ) the Questions , with Confused Empty Jargon : My Answer is , That I think I have not at all troubled the Questions , whether I shall trouble him or no , by my Answering them . But I expect he will tell you , that my Answers are Confused Empty Jargon , and if he will please to tell me so , I shall give him no Rougher Reply than this , Sir , This is a rare demonstration , that your self is one of those Anti-Trinitarians , whom you Extol in the beginning of your Answer to my Propositions , as having Modestly , as well as Learnedly and Piously , and Strongly Impugned , the Commonly received Doctrine of the Trinity . But how does he Endeavour to prevent my troubling his Questions , with Confused Empty Jargon ? He does it thus : By Essence , I suppose he means Nature . I Answer , I am willing to do so too . And , saith he , in that respect perhaps 3. Men who have the same Nature , may be properly said to be Essentially one , but not Essentially one Person . I Answer , this may be more than a Perhaps ; but he may perceive by my 15th . Proposition ( now the 22. ) that I am far from thinking the 3. Persons in the H. Trinity to be in so low a sence one as 3. Men are . But , proceeds he The Nature of the Self-Existent God , is above the Nature of all Beings which proceed from Him ; and it can not be Communicated . I Answer , that the individual Nature of the Father , is not a Divine Nature more truly than that of the Two other Persons : But how does he prove that His Nature cannot be Communicated ? Why , saith he , we have no other Notion of the word Communicate , but to Impart or Give ; and what one Person does Impart or Give , of any Essential and Singular thing , that himself hath not , but he hath it to whom it is given . It may be some will say , Thus it is among Finite Creatures , but the Essence of God is not of the same Condition , &c. But as God said to Job , Who is this that darkneth Councell by words without knowledge ? It may be replyed to this Man , Who is he that multiplyeth words without knowledge ? For it is not thus , as he positively asserts , Even among Creatures . For there is not a Creature that Generates another of the same kind , but may be properly said to Communicate its own Nature , and yet notwithstanding it foregoes not its own individual Nature , nor any part thereof . What a Boldness then is it to Affirm , that the Infinite Creator Cannot do the like ! He that Planted the Ear shall He not hear ? And He that formed the Eye shall not he see ? He that hath gi-given a Generative Power to the Meanest of Creatures , or Creatures that have the lowest degree of Life , shall not He have the Same Power Himself ? I mean A Power of doing that which may be called Generating His own Essential Likeness , in an inconceivably Infinitely more Excellent manner . I wish , Sir , your Friend would well lay to heart that Old Maxim , Temerè Affirmare , vel Negare de Deo Periculosum est . Which I will English to you , who I doubt are no great Latinist , 'T is a dangerous thing to affirm or deny any thing rashly of God , As to the little that remains upon this Proposition , it consists of a Repetition of what I have Answered , and of what he repeats upon the next Proposition , which I will Answer . And indeed , Sir , your Friend is Excellently good , next to Dareing Assertions , at Repetitions , and saying things , that are nothing , or very little , to the purpose . But you will find Every thing , to have more or less spoken to it , that is but one remove from what is nothing but mere Words . And now to what he Animadverts on the 10th . Proposition . Prop. 10. There seems to be no Contradiction , nor the least Absurdity in asserting , that God is able to Communicate Every one of His Perfections , Except those of Self-Existence , and Being the First Original of all things . By the way , my meaning in these words , appears plainly by other following Propositions , to be this . That there is no Contradiction or Absurdity in asserting , That such Beings may have their Original from God the Father , as have all Perfections but those two ; and which indeed ( as I have said ) do amount to but one . Now what faith your Friend to this ? He tells us in the first place . That for the same reason that these two are Incommunicable , all the Other Divine Perfections are likewise so . And whereas he assigns two Reasons , why God cannot Communicate these two , he saith for the same Reasons , he cannot Communicate any of His other Perfections . But how Egregiously Absurd is it , to go about to give Reasons , why God cannot Communicate His Self-Existence , and His being the First Original of all things ? Since that He cannot Communicate these , is a First and Self-Evident Principle : And therefore is Uncapable , as all such Principles are , of being demonstrated ; as Every Body knows that understands , What a First and Self-Evident Principle is ; which Every one must understand , that can understand any thing . Whatsoever is Capable of being proved , must be less clear , than is the Argument by which it is proved ; and whatsoever Proposition is so , cannot possibly be a First or self-Evident Principle ; as no man in his Wits does need to be informed . And therefore no such one will go about to prove this Proposition , The same thing can be , and not be , in the same Moment . And the foresaid Proposition is Every whit as self-Evident as this : and the denial thereof as Manifest a Contradiction . There cannot be a greater , or clearer , Contradiction than to say , That God can Communicate Self-Existence ; it being to say in other words , That God can be the cause of that which hath no cause . Nor than to say , That God can make a First Original of All things ; since this is to say , that He can make a thing to be before Himself , and to be the Original of Himself ; For what is not so , cannot be the First Original of All things . And therefore , whereas his First , Reason , why God cannot Communicate these Perfections is , Because it is a Contradiction so to do ; he might as well have said , 'T is a Contradiction to say that God can do a Contradiction . That He can Communicate them is Contradictio in Terminis ; and therefore 't is absurd to give it as a Reason why He cannot do it , that 't is a Contradiction . For you may as well ask , why God cannot do a Contradiction ? And if a Reason can be given for this , you may ask a Reason for that Reason ; and so in infinitum . But if it were onely Contradictio in Adjecto , I acknowledg , that because such Contradictions are not manifest at first hearing , at least to Every Body , 't is proper to give Reasons to shew that there are Contradictions implyed in such Propositions . But if , any man should ask me a Reason , why Two and two do not make Twenty , I would bid him Go look , instead of telling him , that it is a Contradiction that they should ; since I had as good tell him , he has a Nose in his Face , and better too . But that God can make a Self-Existent Thing , or a First Original of All things , are Every jot as Evident Contradictions , as that Two and two do make Twenty . But , Sir , your Friend saith , that , 'T is Equally Absurd and Contradictions , to suppose more than one infinitely powerful , wise and Good Being . If he means by Equally Absurd and Contradictions as Evidently so , sure he is the onely Man that will say so , nor can he think so , say he what he will. But how does he prove this ? This is the argument by which he does it , viz. infinite Power , infnite Wisdom and infinite Goodness go together , and may all of them , as well as either of them , be in all Beings whatsoever , as well as in more Beings than one . But what if I say That this is as much needs to be proved , as that which it is brought to prove ? His onely Answer is like to be , you must take this upon the Authority of my Lord of Canterbury . For he onely goes about to Confirm it by a passage in His Sermon on 1 Tim. 2. 5. p. 13. But I not having that Sermon by me , and he making no Marks to distinguish between , what is his Graces and what is his own , it is Enough to give him that for an Answer . His second Argument , whereby he Endeavours to prove the forementioned Self-Evident Proposition , is , That Self-Existence is indivisible , and Gods Self-Existence is necessary ; and therefore if he should Communicate His Self-Existence to Another , He Himself should remain not self-Existent , which is a gross Absurdity , and a manifest Contradiction . O Wonderful ! is it so indeed ? I marvel who told him so ; it may be he takes this too on the Authority of some Great Man , since he troubles not himself to make it out . But there is as great a necessity of proving this also , as of proving that of which it is a Proof . And he makes this brave Argument to prove too , That Infinite power is as incommunicable as self-Existence , and Infinite Wisdom and Goodness , because these are also indivisible . But the Trinitarian is not so knockt down by this Unmerciful Argument ( to use a phrase of his own ) but that he may soon rise again . Nay , as Goodluck would have it , 't is so weak a Blow , that he has not felt it . And 't will be found weaker than a Puff of Breath , by that time I have askt him this one Question , viz. Is not also the individual Nature of Every living Creature indivisible ? But , as was before said , Even the lowest Sort of them can propagate their own Nature , which is the same thing with Communicating it ; and therefore methinks it should not be so great a Contradiction to say , that He who gave Being to those Creatures can do the like . Or if you please , thus : 'T is therefore no Contradiction to say , That God the Father may be the Original of a Being , which hath power to do all things possible to be done , and hath unlimited Wisdom and Goodness . As to the rest of this Animadversion , I will not spend one Minute so vainly as to take notice of it ; for half an Eye must see it to be nothing better than ( to give it his own word ) mere Jargon . Prop. 11. It seems Evident from the H. Scriptures , That the Son and H. Spirit have all Divine Perfections but those two , such as Unlimited Power , Wisdom and Goodness , and Unspotted Purity . As to Unspotted Purity he grants , that the Scriptures do plainly assert it of our Saviour , but faith , that that is but the Perfection of a Man or Angel , not an infinite Perfection of a God. I Answer , that this he onely with his usual Confidence saies , but tells us not how he comes by this Confidence . But suppole he could demonstrate this , yet the Unspotted Purity of the H. Ghost one would think to be the Purity of a God , since we are so assured from Scripture , that He is the Author of all that Purity and Holiness , which Is or Ever shall be found in Men. And he must have a large stock of Confidence , who dares say . that the Purity which Excells not that of a Man or Angel , is sussicient to qualify a Person to be the Sanctisier , of all that are or shall be Sanctified . And if the Purity of the H. Ghost be the Purity of a God , I hope the Son's Purity may be acknowledg'd so to be too : Surely those Socinians who believe the H. Ghost to be a Person , will not make him to Excell the Son in Holiness . Next he Cavils at my saying , that this 11th . Proposition Seems Evident to me , and saith that Seems and Evident , are two words very ill put together ; because that which doth but seem Evident is not really so ; and that which is Evident doth more than seem so . I see , Sir , I must not hope to Please this Friend of yours , I verily thought he was about to Praise me for my it Seems Evident : For he saith upon it , That [ Seems ] is a word that Speaks the Modesty of an ingenuous Enquirer after truth ; and on the Contrary , That Evident fills the mouth of a man of Confidence ; as by the way I must tell him he knows by Experience . Yet for all this , the good Man designed to Expose me for my it Seems Evident ; and those two Sentences are Fleering ones , and were intended for Scoffs . But I pray him to Mock on after I have told him that , First , He knows I did not say , it but Seems Evident . And that , Secondly , 'T is utterly false , that that which is Evident doth more than seem so to all Persons . There are many Evident Truths , that to those who Shut their Eyes against the Light , may not so much as seem so ; and there are those who being sensible of the weakness of their understandings , may say of Very Evident Truths , this or that seems or appears Evident to them . But we shall not in haste , Sir , Catch your Friend at the Extreme of Modesty . For whatsoever seems not agreeable with his Reason ( which we have found to be a Clear and Strong Reason indeed ) must be immediately Contrary to Natural Reason . And he is onely puzled at Comprehending Gods ways , not God Himself and his Glorious Attributes . And he can Comprehend whatsoever he Understands . And now follows Another of his Modest Sayings , viz. That this Proposition we are now upon , does not so much as seem Evident from Scripture . And he wishes I had Cited some of the plainest Texts to my Purpose . But he hath had Enough of those Cited by other Trinitarians ; many of which the Socinians so play the Criticks upon , that should the same liberty be taken as to all other Texts , which are Capable of having the same work made with them , the Scriptures would be made a mere Nose of Wax . But however , methinks , the Apostle's so Expresly applying those words of the Psalmist to the Son of God , viz. Thou Lord in the Beginning hast laid the Foundations of the Earth , and the Heavens are the work of Thine Hands , &c. doth at least seem to Speak Him infinitely Powerfull . And thesame thing does seem at least , to be affirmed in those words , Coloss. 1. 16. &c. By Him were all things Created , that are in Heaven and that are in Earth &c. For He is before all things , and by Him all things Consist . And St Peters Saying to Him , Lord , Thou that knowest all things , knowest that I love Thee , doth at least seem to Speak his believing him to be infinitely Wise , and a Searcher of the very Hearts of men : which is also Expresly affirmed of Him by St Paul , Rom. 2. 16. and 1 Cor. 4. 5. And by our Saviour Himself too , Rev. 2. 23. I am He which Searcheh the Reins and Hearts . And the Apostles saying , that in Christ are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledg , doth sure seem at least to Speak His Wisdom and Knowledg boundless or infinite . And those words Rom. 9. 5. — of whom as Concerning the Flesh Christ came , who is God over All Blessed for Evermore , do at least seem to Speak Him to have the Divine added to the Humane Nature . And those words , Coloss. 2. 9. In Him dwelleth all the Fulness of the God-Head bodily : And Christ's giving Himself the Title that is Proper to God , in his Saying , I am Alpha and Omega , the First and the Last , doth likewise seem at least to assert the same thing . And so doth God the Father's saying of His Son , Let All the Angels of God worship Him ; Especially since it is said , Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God , and Him onely shalt thou serve . And the same thing seems at least to be implyed too , in that Saying of Christ , That all men should Honour the Son , as they Honour the Father ; which is , I think , with Divine Honour ; and must at least seem to this man himself so to be . And what think you of those words which begin St Johns Gospel ? In the Beginning was the Word , and the word was with God , and the word was God , &c. All things were made by Him , &c. Compared with V. 14. And the Word was made Flesh , &c. Do not these words at least seem to speak the same thing ? And Socinus his Exposition of them , would at least seem to be no true one ( tho' there were no such gross Absurditys as the Arch Bishop , among others , hath shewn it to be guilty of ) since he himself does acknowledg , that he was the First Inventer thereof , and therefore not known till above Fifteen Hundred Years after the Coming of our Saviour . And those words , Isa. 9. 6 , 7. do seem at least to be a Prophecy of Christ , viz. To us a Child is born , to us a Son is given . He shall be called Wonderfull , Counsellour , the Mighty God , the Everlasting Father , the Prince of Peace , &c. Nor is it so much as a Seeming Objection , which the Socinians urge against these words being a Prophecy , that the first do run in the Present Tense , viz. To us a Child is born , a Son is given , since in that Unquestionable Prophecy of Christ , Isa. 53. Several of the Praedictions run in both the Present and Praeterperfect Tense : As He is despised and rejected of Men. He hath born our Griefs . He was wounded for our Transgressions : And the like almost in every Verse throughout the Chapter . Nor is any thing more Common than this Enallage of Tenses in the Hebrew Language . And their rendring the words next following , so as to adapt them to K. Hezekiah instead of our Saviour , is a wonderful instance of their offering violence to Texts of Scripture ; for thus they read them , The Wonderful Counsellour , the Mighty God , the Everlasting Father , shall name him ( viz. Hezekiah ) the Peaceable Prince . And wheras it follows , Of the Encrease of his Government and Peace there shall be no End ; they make this to be fulfilled in Hezekiah , because he reigned no less than Nine and Twenty Years . See this in the Brief History of the Unitarians so much magnified by them , P. 20. of the 2d . Edition . I have , Sir , now given your Friend a Taste , and a mere Tast of the plainest Texts to my purpose , in Compliance with his Wish ; and notwithstanding my seems , which he makes such a do with , I am as Certain as I can be of any thing of this nature , that these Sriptures and Abundance more , do much more than seem to Confirm the truth of this Proposition . And as to the H. Ghost , I need give no other Proof , of His having all the Perfections of the Divine Nature , than what hath bin already said of His being the Sanctifier ; for since this speaks Him Infinitely Pure and Holy , and I may add too , Omnipresent , he must needs have all the other , according to your Friends Assertion , viz. That they cannot be some in one , and some in another , but must be inseparate , and go together . And he now betakes himself to Cite Texts against Christs having Unlimited Perfections , but he gives us only two ; one to prove His Power , and the other His Wisdom to be Limited . That for the Limitedness of His Power , is that saying of our Lord to Peter , when he was Apprehended in the Garden , Mat. 26. 52. Put up again thy Sword , &c. Thinkest thou that I cannot now Pray unto my Father , and He shall presently give me more than Twelve Legions of Angels ? But 1. There is no necessity , that it should be implyed in these words , that Christ had not power to deliver Himself without Praying to His Father for the Help of Angels , or any other help , since Unspeakably Greater Works are Recorded of Him , without any mention of His Praying for Ability to do them : And since he had twice before done this very work , when he was as much as now in the hands of His Adversaries ; as may be seen Luke 4. 30. and John 10. 39. 2. Our Lord 's whole Power being Originally from the Father , he , we find , took all opportunities of giving Him the Glory of whatsoever he did . 3. He now thought fit to declare in the Ears of His Enemies , how Dear He was to God , as much as they Hated Him. And therefore , whereas One Legion of Angels could have delivered Him , as well as Twelve ; nay , one Angel , as well as so many Legions ; yet He saith His Father would send Him Twelve Legions , upon His Praying to Him ; i. e. supposing He could stand in need of them . 4. Our Lord did Industriously Conceal the Highest sence in which He was the Son of God , from those who were so far from being Capable of then receiving that Doctrine , that He knew they would make Him so much the greater Blasphemer upon that account . Nor would it have been so Congruous to His State of Humiliation , for Himself then to have Proclaimed His Divinity ; but after His Glorious Ascension , and sending the H. Ghost , according to His Promise , was the Season for the doing hereof by the Apostles : As particularly St Chrysostom hath shewed , in more than one of his Homelys . Again , Sir , your Friend Attacques Christs Infinite Wisdom , from its being said of the Child Jesus , That He grew in Wisdom . But does he think us to have so Soft a Place in our Heads , as to believe the Humane Nature of Christ capable of all the Wisdom of the Divinity thereto United ? No he does not , for foreseeing what Answer was ready for him , he saith , If it be Replyed that His Wisdom as God was Infinite , the Scripture does not so much as seem to tell us any thing of Christ , with distinguishing respect to a Supposed Divine Nature , in opposition to an acknowledged Humane . To pass over the Odd Phrase [ with distinguishing respect ] what if the Scripture saith nothing of Christs having a Divine Nature in Opposition to His Humane , does it not therefore so much as seem to tell us any thing of His having a Divine Nature distinct from His Humane ? That Text , God was manifested in the Flesh , doth seem so to do , but I will despair of understanding much of Scripture , if several of the forecited Texts do not much more than seem to do it . But I have slipped one Passage , which 't is Convenient to take some notice of , viz. But it may be said , that all Power in Heaven and Earth , is Committed to Christ. And he answers , Tes , to fit Him to be the Great Minister by whom God will Judge the World. I will interrupt him but while I tell him , I wonder it should not seem to him and Every Man , not only strange but impossible , that a mere Man ( tho' in an Extraordinary manner Conceived ) should be a subject Capable of Receiving all Power in Heaven and Earth , and of Judging the World , both Men and Angels . But he thus Proceeds , But when that Great Day shall be over , that Power , that Fulness of Power , shall be given up to the Great God again . And I Answer , To what purpose should a Power ( or Authority ) be longer retained , than while there is any occasion for the Exercise thereof ? The Authority relating to Christs Mediatory Kingdom must Cease , with the Ceasing of that Kingdom it self . I did not Cite that Text among those I instanced in to prove the Infinite Power of the Son of God , and industriously declined it upon Considering , That Christ speaks in those words of a Power Committed to Him , and therefore not Essentially in Him ; and that by Power here is to be understood Authority , and a New Authority relating to a New Kingdom . And now what hath he to say to my 12th . Proposition ? Prop. 12. It is intolerable presumption to Conclude , that there can be no way besides that of Creation , whereby any thing can be immediately and onely from God , which hath a distinct Existence of its own : Or that no Beings can have their Existence from Him , by way of Necessary Emanation ; since there is a Resemblance of such a thing in Nature , viz , The issuing forth of Rays from the Sun. And now see a Rare , and as Charitable a Remarque upon the first words , It is intolerable Presumption . There is , saith he , the very Spirit of the Church in it . Well , what means he by the very Spirit of the Church ? it follows , The Spirit of Degrading and Scourging ; the Spirit of Jayling a man , and Ruining his Business ; the Spirit of Fining him , and starving his wife and Children : the Spirit of Burning him , and ( if anger could do it ) Sending him to the Devil . And instead of sending me to the Devil , he makes a very Devil of me ( which is the worse Punishment of the two ) as mighty Good as he has thought me sometimes , when he and I have had the good luck to jump in our Notions . But why must I be such a Devillish Persecutor merely for one word ? cannot this [ Intolerable ] bear a more merciful interpretation ? I was very unlucky in lighting upon this Epithet , if it cannot ; for time has bin , when I could have bin a Persecutor but would not ( and that is more than the Socinians can say ) nor have I since Ever Changed my mind . But I am old Enough to be assured from my own observation , That there is no being secure of any party , that they will never persecute till they have been Tryed . And there is no party ( the Papists themselves not Excepted ) but hath decryed Persecution , while it hath had no Power , to Persecute . But , Sir , I will take leave to tell your Friend , that , as great an Enemy of Persecution as he professeth himself to be , he is himself a Persecutor , and a pretty Fierce one too . There are more ways of Persecuting than One , and a man may Persecute with his Tongue and Pen ; and whosoever can do so with either of these , I won't be bound for him , that he will not do it with his Hand too , when he hath an opportunity . Now he Persecutes with his Pen , who Employs it in heavily Censuring his Brother without just cause , but so hath he Employed it now against me . For I meant no more by intolerable , than a most high Presumption ; nor did you , Sir , I dare say , understand it otherwise ; I will not descant upon his very Spirit of the Church , I am sure it shews his Spirit sufficiently . But , Sir , I thank your Friend for the Charity he next expresseth towards his Persecutor . Let us try , sayes he , , whether we can restore him to himself , and the Spirit of Meekness . But if I am restored to that Spirit , which he cannot say I ever lost , it must be by one , to whom I can't reply , Physician heal thy Self . And do you judge , Sir , whether there is more Heat in my Propositions , or his Animadversions . But how will he allay the Fury I have Expressed in those words , or rather in that one word ? He attempts it by Saying , That the Socinians know of no otherway but that of Creation , whereby any thing can be immediately and onely from God. But I did not say , that 't is intolerable Presumption not to know any other way , but to Conclude there can be no other . And I still say , 't is a wonderful Boldness ( to wave intolerable because 't is so intolerable to him ) so to Conclude , tho' no other way should be known to us . As to the way of necessary Emanation , he saith it is the Supposal of a thing , where of we have no Idea . Well , suppose this , is it impossible for a thing to be , of which we sorry Mortals have no Idea ? Is God Almighty bound to give us Ideas of the way and manner how any thing can be Produced by him ? Or how what we know does Exist is Produced ? Or to give us Ideas of Every thing that he can Produce ? Or of Every thing that He hath Produced ? Sure your Friend will not dare to answer yes to the two latter of these Questions , and much less ( then ) to the two former . And if he be not So daring , with what face could he object against the possibility of a Necessary Emanation from God , because we have no Idea thereof ? But I tell him , we have Every whit as much an Idea of Necessary Emanation , as of voluntary Creation , understanding thereby the making of Something out of Nothing . Which Aristotle and his Followers thought an impossibility , Ex Nihilo nihil fit ; or Nothing is made out of Nothing , being a Maxim of theirs . And therefore they held both the Eternity and Self Existence of the Matter of the World. And the Platonists thought the Idea of Necessary Emanation , at least as Clear as that of Creation ; and the Younger Platonists for the most part held Humane Souls to be by Such an Emanation from the Deity , and therefore to be Eternal , tho' not Self-Existent . But he saith , That something should come from God which wants some Perfection that God has , is AT 's ( that is my ) Prodigious Supposition , under the name of Necessary Emanation . And I say , it would be a Prodigious Supposition indeed , that any thing should come from God , that hath the Perfection of His manner of Existence ; or that any thing can have it's Existence from God , and be Self-Existent . And now , he will display , he saith , the Absurdity and impossibility of this Necessary Emanation , in two or three Questions ; and , I thank him , in Consideration of my Soft place , he himself answers them for me . Q. 1. Was God Conscious to the Emanation ? Yes saith he , Else His understanding is not infinite . Q 2. Was He sensible of the Necessity ? Yes again , for the same reason . And I answer yes , yes too , though he has Excused me . But now , when I have most need of his help , he leaves me to answer for my Self , to a stabbing Consequence from those Concessions , viz. But then it follows , that he was determined to one thing , and sensible that He was so . I will here too adventure to give him two more Yesses . Then , proceeds he , there is some Power above Him , or such a determination is the Law of His Nature ; the former , he saith , cannot be , because God is the Supreme Being . And he would have done like himself , had he given us a reason , why nothing can be above the Supreme Being . Nor , saith he , can the latter , because neither Reason , nor Scripture , describes God by any such Law. But , being aware that this is too difficult for my Brains , he tells me , he 'l make the matter Plain by a Question . I see he 's Excellent at Questions , and his Question is this , By what Evident Principle of Reason , or what Text of Scripture , does it appear to be the Law of an Infinite Nature , to beget Infinite Power , Wisdom , Goodness ; and that in a Being that must want Self-Existence , and being the Maker of all things ? I answer , That if he hath any Idea of the thing called Non-sense , and any true mark to find it by , he cannot miss of it in this Question . But who Ever talked of the Fathers Begetting infinite Power , Wisdom and Goodness in any Being ; or otherwise than of His Begetting an infinitely Powerful , Wise and Good Being ? And now comes a Third Question , Does the Idea of an infinitely Perfect Being , Evidently imply the Necessary Emanation of another Being ? This Question , sure , he asked for askings sake ; For he knows I desired to have no more granted me , than that it is not impossible , or there is no Absurdity in it , That Beings may have Exstence from God by way of Necessary Emanation . And now for the 13. Proposition . Prop. 13. It is no less Presumption to Affirm , That it is a Contradiction to say , that a BEING can be from all ETERNITY from God the Father , supposing it Possible that it may be from Him , in an higher and more Excellent way , than that of Creation ; since the Sun , tho' it is the Cause of Light , is onely in order of Nature before it . To this he saith , First , That for one Being to be from all Eternity from the Eternal Father , is a Contradiction one degree more Absurd , than barely two Eternals . Not to tell him , that I have hitherto thought , that all Contradictions are alike Absurd ; how does he Prove this to be in any degree an Absurd Contradiction ? He saith , that it is so , is the most manifest thing in the World. If I demand a Proof now hereof , I should affront him , had I not already Catcht him at proving ( after his manner ) the most manifest thing in the World. But I need not demand a proof hereof , for he presently sets about it . And the Argument whereby he proves this most manifest thing in the World is this , We neither have , nor can have , any notion of Proceeding , or Being from Another , but what implyes the Proceeder who derives his Being , to be inferiour ( he should have said Posteriour ) to that other Being , in order of Time. In truth , 't is a pleasant thing to see Men all of a Piece . This is perfectly like his Arguing ; that is , Proving the most Manifest thing , by what is less manifest ; nay , this is proving it by what is very false . He saith , we have no Notion of such a thing , and I have already told him , that a thing may nevertheless be , for our having no Notion of it . But he also saith , we can have none ; here 's Confidence too like his own , but let him speak for himself , and not say We ; for I both can have , and have some Notion of such a thing , and so may any one that pleaseth ; for such a thing is a daily Object of our Sight ? Of which anon , after I have Considered 2. more of his Wise sayings . The Absurdity and impossibility , saith he , of deriving Existence from God , by a more Excellent way than that of Creation , I have already made manifest . But if any Man of sense be found to be herein of his mind , I will never trust my sense more , in the most Manifest matters . And then he sayes , I therefore Conclude , that Eternal Generation cannot be proved by it , unless it can be made to appear , that a true Notion is a necessary Consequence of a false . But , Sir , Can you think it possible , that your Friend should do such mighty Feats as he makes his Brags of , since he cannot distinguish between , Denying a thing to be Contradictions and Impossible , and Asserting the truth of it . And if he knows not , that the Proof of such a thing as Eternal Generation , was now none of my business ; and much more , if he needs to be told , that I only affirmed that there is no Contradiction therein to Natural Reason , 't is hard to say , whether he was more weak in offering to Animadvert on my Propositions , or I in troubling my self with taking any notice of his Animadversions . And now we come to the Instance I give in this Proposition , of an Effect every whit as Old as the Cause of it ; and your Friend being come to it too , asks me How I know , that the Sun is the cause of Light ? And adds , by the Revelation of School-Divines perhaps , not by the History of the Bible ; for , if the Account of the Creation in Genesis , be to be taken in a litteral sence , that will Convince me of a Philosophical Errour ; for there 't is said , That God made the Light the first day , the Sun not till the fourth . But , Sir , did you ever meet with such Triflng ? First , He saith , perhaps I have learnt that the Sun is the cause of Light , from the Revelation of School-Divines . How well was this Flurt bestowed on me , since he knew what a Veneration I Exprest for those Divines , in my last Proposition ? Secondly , He saith , I could not have this rare Notion , from the History of the Bible ; because the Book of Genesis saith , that Light was made the first day , and the Sun the fourth . Admirable I profess ! Sure this Man hath himself been dabling with the School-men , he 's so Subtil . But what if I grant him , that that Light which was Created before the Sun , the Sun was not the cause of ? Does it follow thence , that the Sun is the cause of no Light ? My Candle is the cause of the Light I now write by , therefore the Sun is not the cause of any Light. But whereas I humbly Conceive ( after all ) that the Sun is the Cause of Light , I owe this my Opinion neither to the History of the Bible , nor to the Schools , but to a certain thing called Eye-sight ; and for this Satisfaction he owes me thanks . But Thirdly , saith he , The Sun is the Cause of Light ! He may as well say , The Sun is the Cause of the Sun ; and the Light of Light ; or any thing whatsoever is the Cause of its own Nature . But why so I beseech him ? Are the Sun and Light the self-same thing ? Then a Glow-worm hath the Sun in the Tayl of it . And then , the Light was not made 3. days before the Sun , for all the Book of Genesis . But if he please to give any Credit to his own Eyes , he will be tempted to think , that the Body of the Sun , and the Light which comes in at his Windows are two things . But at last we find him in a good humour ; for , well then , saith he , be it granted him , that the Sun and the Light which proceeds from it did begin to Co-Exist in the same moment of time , but then they cannot be the cause of one another . But I must be still a little Cross , and say , First , That I will not have it granted me , that they did begin to Co-Exist in the same moment , for I am satisfied to have them begin only to Exist in the same moment . Secondly , Neither shall he grant it to me , that therefore they are the Cause of One another ; for I was so reasonable as to be Content to have but one of them the Cause of the other . But now he is Cross again , and saith , That thing which is the Cause of another , must be in respect of Time before the other thing , whereof it is the Cause . In sober Sadness , my Friend , he might have spared all his other Wise talk , and only have told me this and he had done his Business . For 't is as much as if he had said , Let the Sun be the Cause of Light , with all my heart , and let them begin to Exist together too , yet notwithstanding I would have you know , that whatsoever thing is the Cause of another thing must be in order of Time before it : And for once take my word for it . And now , to my Comfort , we are Come to the Conclusion of this Ammadversion , viz. What A. T. means by Order of Nature , I am not sure that I can guess , for I am not much Versed in School-Jargon ; yet guessing at his meaning , I tell him , That I can no more Conceive the Sun without the Light which proceeds from it , than the Light that proceeds from the Sun , from whence it does proceed . This Sentence is long Enough too , to be taken to pieces . 1. He saith , he is not sure that he can guess , and yet does guess . But my School-learning tells me , that if he is sure he does guess , he is sure he can guess . 2. He saith , he is not much Versed in School-Jargon , that is to say , he is Verst in Jargon , but not in School-Jargon . And , because we will part fairly I am willing he should know , that I believe both these Propositions . 3. He saith , he is not sure that he can guess , what A. T. means by Order of Nature . As if Priority in order of Nature , and in Order of Time were a Distinction of my Coyning , like that of Intelligible , and Incomprehensible . I perceive he is as great a Philosopher , as School-Divine if he never before met with that Distinction , which is much more Ancient than the most Ancient of the School-men , or than Christianity it self . But if he hath Ever met with that Distinction before , he might have Presumed , that what I mean by it , is but what other Folk have Ever meant . 4. He saith , I can no more Conceive the Sun without the Light that Pooceeds from it , than this Light without the Sun. No nor can I neither , for I can Perfectly well Conceive them both . I can Conceive the Sun abstractly from any other Light , than what is in the Body of it ; and I can Conceive too Every jot as well of the Light in my House at Noon-day , abstracted from the Sun : And so can he too , if his great Modesty would but let him think so . But we must not forget the last words of this his Conclusion , viz. Thus I reckon to have done Justice to A. T 's . 13th . Proposition , not forgetting the Appendent Similitude . And I reckon I have done no injustice to his Animadversions , on this or any other of my Propositions ; and whether he be out in his Reckoning , or 1 in mine , let any man of his own Chusing be judg , that has but Common-sense . Prop. 14. Those two Propositions do Speak our Explication of the H. Trinity , to be as Contrary to Arianism as to Socinianism ; since the Arians assert , that there was at least a Moment of time , when the Son was not , and that He is a Creature . On this he sayes nothing , that I can be Concerned to reply too , unless I delighted in Exposing him , for Exposings sake . Prop. 15. Tho' we cannot understand , how it should be no Contradiction to affirm , that the three Persons are but one numerical Being , yet hath it no Appearance of a Contradiction to say , That there is an Unconceivably Close and inseparable Union , both in Will and Nature between them . And here too is very little to draw a Reply from me , Except I delighted in Repetitions as much as he does ; but two or three Passages I can't well let go . He saith , It is a very Stange Boldness for men to determine , that such or such a Notion is true , which they cannot Conceive is true . But I. How comes Boldness all o th' suddain to be such a Crime with this Gentleman ? 2. How comes that Proposition by such a Remarque as this ? since it Speaks nothing of the Truth of any Notion , but affirms one Notion , to have no Appearance of a Contradiction in it . Nor does he offer a word to shew that there is any Contradiction therein , or any Appearance thereof ; which a Wise man would believe to be his onely Business , could such a one undertake Confuting of this Proposition . 3. Who are they that determine any Notion to be true , while they cannot Conceive it to be so ? And another Saying he hath here , which further demonstrates what a deadly Enemy he is to the Crime Boldness , viz. A Close and inseparable Union between God and Christ , there cannot be ; unless he means such a Union as is between different Natures ; but that will not content him , yet 't is all that can be granted . But I much doubt , that this is much more than he will grant ; I fear he will not grant , That God the Father and his Begotten Son , are as Closely United as are his Soul and Body , the Natures of which are as different , as the Natures of any two Created things can be ; and their Union with Each other so Close ( tho' not inseparable ) that he is as unable to give an account of this Union as of that which Trinitarians do believe to be between God the Father , the Son and the H. Ghost . But he saith , The Nature of God the Father includes Perfections , which are not in the Nature of Jesus Christ ; and from thence Concludes that such a Union as the forementioned cannot be between them . To which , I am loth to repeat what I have so often said , That the Fathers Self-Existence , with what is there in implyed , is a Perfection immediately relating to His manner of Existence But however , are there not many Perfections , or Excellent Powers and Properties in Souls , which are not in Bodys ? And yet the Union between them ( as was said ) is too Close for us to give an Account thereof . Prop. 16. Such an Union as this between them , being acknowleg'd by us , together with the forementioned intire Dependance of the Son and H. Spirit upon the Faher ; the Unity of the Deity is as fully , to all intents and purposes , asserted by us , as it is necessary or desirable it should be . But to this , Sir , as he saith very little , so not a line that I can reply a new word to ; nor a Syllable is here of Confutation . Prop. 17. And no part of this Explication , do we think Repugnant to any Text of Scripture , but it seems to be the best and Easiest way of Reconciling those Texts , which according to the other Hypotheses , are not Reconcileable , but by offering Extreme Violence to them . Now to this he saith , That he is infinitely certain , that this Explication is in a great part Repugnant to many Texts of Scripture , and to many Self-Evident Principles of Reason . But not one of those many Texts of Scripture , does he instance in , and we have seen what work he makes with Self-Evident Principles . Nor is here any Offer at a Confutation , Except his calling me an Ishmalite Trinitarian be so , whose hand is against all the Heads of the Trinitarian-Expositors , and all their hands against me ; and a scareing Threat , how Merciless — would Expose me , and that he would do it at another kind of rate than he hath done . But I say , should he Expose me at the Same rate , he would be merciless to himself onely . But since he saith , that my hand is against all the Heads of Trinitarian Expositors , 't is Enough to tell him that 't is false . Prop. 18. The Socinians must Confess , that the Honour of the Father , is as much as they can desire taken Care of by this Explication ; nor can the Honour of the Son and H. Ghost be more Consulted in any Explication of the H. Trinity , than it is in this ? It ascribing to them all Perfections , but what they cannot have , without the most Manifest Contradiction . Now the first thing he here saith , that I ought to take notice of , is , That he who gives more to an Excellent Person , than of Right belongs to him , may perhaps be in a great part Excused for the sake of his good intention , but must nevertheless always be chid for the injury he offers to him , because by giving too much to him , he brings the just measures of his real Excellency into Question . Now instead of an Answer , I would ask him one Question more , who has askt me so many , viz. which is the Safer of the Two Extremes , To think of the Son and H. Ghost more or less honourably than we ought , Provided that God the Fathers Honour be not in the least intrenched upon ? Sure , 't is impossible for any sincere Christian not to Chuse to Err on the Right-Hand , if he must Err on One. On that Hand we chuse to Err in our Opinion of whomsoever we have a Respect and value for . Now if the Honour of the Father be as much as can be taken care of in this our Explication ; and we believe it is , since he is made the Original of all the Excellencies and Perfections , that are in the other Persons , and of their Existence . And since there are so great a Number of Texts , which have more than seemed to the Generality of Christians ( and to all but a small handful since Arianism went off the Stages to give the Perfections of the Divine Nature to these Persons , surely the Love and Esteem which all good Soul ) must necessarily have for them , must needs byass them towards the Understanding of Scripture in that sence , which makes most for their Honour , provided it be not Forced and too Artificial ; and Provided , I say again , the Father loseth no Honour thereby . Again he saith , That , to his knowledge , the Socinians are not willing to Confess that the Honour of the Father is as much taken care of in this Explicaiion , as they do wish it were . But he offers not at any reason , why they are not willing to Confess this . But sure they will not say , that their own Hypothesis doth give more Honour to the Father , than that which speaks him the Author of all that the other Persons either have or are . Lastly , he saith , That the Scripture no where tells us , that Jesus Christ , or the Holy Ghost desired to be accounted God : That Jesus Christ did not command nor desire Divine Honours to be paid Him is plain , in that when he taught His Disciples to Pray , He did not propound Himself as the Object of Prayer , but directed them to Address themselves to the Father . To this I Reply , First , That suppose neither of these Persons is said in Scripture to desire to be accounted God , are there there fore no Texts which speak of either of them as God ? I have I think sufficiently minded him of the Contrary . Secondly , How can he say that Jesus Christ desired not Divine Honours to be paid to Him ? ( Except he means , that he desired none to be paid him while He was on Earth ) when He hath told us John 5. 23. that The Father hath Committed all Judgment to the Son ; That all Men should Honour the Son , even as they Honour the Father . And are not all the Glorious Angels Commanded by the Father to Worship His Son ? Heb. 1. 6. And is not Eternal Glory given to Him , Apocal. 1. 5 , 6. Now to Him that loved us , and washed us from our Sins in His own Blood , and hath made us Kings and Priests unto God , and His Father : To Him be Glory and Dominion for ever and ever ? And will not all such Texts speak Him an Object of Divine Worship , because that in the Days of His Humiliation , He expressed no desire of being so ; but still gave all the Honour of whatsoever He did to His Father ? Thirdly , I doubt from this Passage , that your Friend is gone beyond his Master Socinus , and denyeth the Adorability of the Son of God , for which he was a Zealous Champion . I am heartily Sorry for him , if it be so ; this being ( to speak modestly ) to make a very large Step towards being no Christian. Prop. 19. And one would think it impossible , that any Christian should not be easily perswaded , to think as Honourably of his Redeemer and Sanctifier , as ever he is able , while he Robs not God the Father for their Sake ; and doth not offer any violence either to the sence and meaning of Divine Revelations , or to the Reason of his Mind . To this he Replys , I. That Saving the Honour of the Father Intire and Uninjured , the Socinians think as Honourably of the Son , as any Men whatsoever . I Answer , Surely the Arians Opinion of Him is far more Honourable than the Socinians , who will not allow Him to be other than a mere Man , nor to have had a Being before He was in the Womb of the Virgin ; whereas the Arians Doctrine is , that He hath a Super-Angelical Nature , and that He was before all Worlds , and that the Father Created them by Him ; and yet they Consult the Honour of the Father , as much as the Socinians can no ; they making all that belongs to the Son to be from Him. II. He saith , that some of the Socinians think as Honourably too of the H. Ghost ; tho' 't is to be Confessed , that others do think the H. Ghost to be a Divine Energy or Virtue , and not a Person ; whether of the two is not plainly revealed , and my Antagonist does not tempt me to dispute the Question . Not to Reflect upon your Friends wisely calling me his Antagonist , who had nothing then to do with him , don't those Socinians that believe the H. Ghost to be a Person , make Him no better than an Angel , how then do they think as Honourably of Him , as those that believe Him to be God , and yet Rob the Father of no Honour ? And whereas he saith , It is not Plainly revealed whether the H. Ghost be a Person or no ? I say , it is as plainly revealed , as that the Father himself is a Person ; nor can any one be more plainly spoken of as a Person , than the H. Ghost still is by our B. Lord. But some Men will dispute any thing ; and some too , who little understand the Knack of disputing . III. He saith , That to think as Honourably as possibly we can , of any Person , besides God the Father Almighty , is not our duty . But I hope I need not tell him , that Id Solùm Possumus , quod Jure Possumus . We can only do that , which we can lawfully do . And he knew I could mean no other by Possibly can , than Lawfully can . IV. He saith , We are to think but just so Honourably of Jesus Christ , as God directs us in the New Testament . And I say , what ever directions we have what to think of Him in the Old Testament too , are also to govern our thoughts concerning Him. And we are wholly led by the H. Scripture to think so much more Honourably both of Christ and the H. Ghost , than he and his Friends do . V. He saith , That we must leave it to God , who will be Honoured above all things He hath made , and will not Communicate His Honour to Another , to appoint what Honour shall be done to His Son. And we say so too ; and therefore wholly take our direction in this Point from Divine Revelation . And that saying of God Almighty's , that He will not give His Glory to another ; or to any one of His Creatures , Confirms us in our Belief , that the Son of God is not a Creature ; since He will have us to Honour Him , Even as we Honour Himself . And whereas the Socinians say , that God will have Him so Honoured , as He is His Ambassador , and Representative , I Answer , that so Angels have often been too , and yet ( as I need not tell them ) it was ever Idolatry to pay Religious Honour to them , upon any account . An Angel that was sent on an Embassy to St John , said to him , upon his falling down before him , See thou do it not , for I am thy Fellow-Servant , &c. Worship God. And thus have I replyed to every thing in this Animadversion too , that I have not already spoken , more than once , to . Prop. 20. There are many things in the Notion of One God , which all hearty Theists will own are Necessary to be Conceived of Him , that are every whit as much above the reach and Comprehension of Humane Understandings , as is any part of this Explication of the Trinity . Nay this may be affirmed , Even of the Notion of Self-Existence : But yet there is not an Atheist so silly as to call it in question ; since it is not more Evident that One and Two do make Three , than that there could never have been any thing , if there were not something in Being , which was always , and never began to be . To this he only replys , That there are many things directly contrary , to Self-Evident Principles in this Explication ; and he trusts he hath Plainly proved it . And , Sir , do you judge , as much as he is your Friend , how he has Proved it . Prop. 21. Lest Novelty should be Objected against this Explication , and so such as have a veneration for Antiquity ( as it becomes all to have ) should be prejudiced against it , we can make it Evident , that it very well agreeth with the Account , which the Nicene Fathers ( even Athanasius himself ) and others of the Ancients who have treated of this Subject , do in divers Places of their Works , give of the Trinity . And had it not bin sor the Subtil School-men ( to whom CHRISTIANITY is little beholden ) we have reason to believe , that the World , since the Fall of Arianism , would never have been troubled with such Controversies about this great Point , as it hath bin and Continues to be . Now to this your Friend saith , 1. Novelty is the least Objection I have against his Explication , but 't is a good Exception , which he will never be able to answer . But this Proposition tells him , I am prepared to shew , that this Explication agreeth very well with the Account that the Ancients do give of the Trinity . And therefore he might have had the Patience to have seen whether 't was a Vain Boast or no , before he had so Confidently Pronounced me forever unable to answer the Objection of Novelty . 2. He saith , I can hardly think that his Hypothesis , take it altogether , will down with any Trinitarian . But I Phansy that if he did not Mistrust it would down with many , he would not be so Angry , as he is , with it . And now , 3. He gives me his Parting Blow , and it is a Stunner , viz. And as for Ancient Fathers , how weak a thing is it , to seek Credit to An Hypothesis , upon the account of their Concurring ! But , but now , Novelty he acknowledg'd to be a good Exception , tho' the least Objection , of which Distinction between Objection and Exception , himself must have the Honour , and 't is as Wise a one , as mine between Intelligible and Comprehensible is a Weak one ; but how is Novelty any Exception against an Hypothesis , if the Concurrence of the Judgments of Ancient Fathers can give no Credit to it ? But whereas I called this Blow a Stunner , I was in too good Earnest , ; for these his last Words do as Perfectly Amaze me , as my now mentioned Distinction did him . And since Stunned People are not good at Talking , I have no more to say , but that I know not , whether there be more of Arrogance than Ignorance , or of Ignorance than Arrogance in these words . And now , Sir , if you shall think that I have Treated your Friend with too much Freedom , and have given him too Course a Farewell , the onely Apology I can make for it , is , That I find him such a sort of Adversary , as would not Permit me to Treat him otherwise . However , the Liberty he hath taken with me , hath not the least Influence upon my Spleen , and I wish him as well as you know I do your self . And particularly , that he may learn to be more Modest , and think it Possible that those Opinions which he takes for most Evident and most Necessary Truths , may be as Gross and Dangerous Errors ; and that his Understanding is not so much above the Pitch os other fallible Mortals , but that he may be mightily Mistaken when he is most Confident . And I heartily Pray , that you both may with all Sincerity and Impartiality Consider what is here offered to you , and that God would give us all a right Understanding in all Divine Truths . These things I say , are heartily Prayed for , by Your Affectionate Friend , E. G. The Latter Defence . THERE are other Trinitarians Concerned with me , in this Gentlemans Book of Reflexions mentioned in the Title-Page . His 7th . Chapter Conteins those he hath made upon the 28. Propositions , which consists of 15. Sections , that begin with Numb . 56. The First is no more than a Recital of 3. or 4. of my Propositions . The Writer saith upon them , Sect. 57. 1. That two Infinite Substances should Emane from one Infinite Substance , is so gross a Notion , that I wonder any Man of Sense should be guilty of it : And my Reason is , because all Infinites , of what sort or nature soever , are equal ; for if one Infinite be less than another , there must be some Terminus Bound or End of it , and Consequently it cannot be Infinite , of which there can be no Bound or End ; or if one Infinite were any ways more than another , there would be somewhat more than Infinite ; which is Evidently Absurd : Therefore to suppose two Infinites to Emane from one , is to suppose two to Emane from one , when each is equal to the one from which it Emanes . Here , and in the remaining part of this Section , is Demonstration with a Witness against the Ancient Fathers Hypothesis , of the Sons and H. Spirits being from the Deity by Emanation ; and against my Hypothesis , of the Possibility hereof . I will take a little more Liberty with this Subtil Gentleman , when I am better acquainted with him ( as I shall be quickly ) than I will at present . For he may think it no good Breeding to tell him homely all my mind , at our very first Meeting . But now a Complement is more Civil , as I thank him , he begins with too great a one to me . And my Complement is , Sir , I Commend your Wisdom in Changing all along my Phrases , viz. Beings whose Perfections are unlimited , and who have all they can have without a most manifest Contradiction , for a Phrase I not once use in my Propositions , viz. Infinite Substances ; because I understand it nothing so well as those Phrases . And I say he did Wisely herein , Since had he used my Phrases , this Section would not have looked quite so scaringly . But let the Reader still put one of my Phrases in the place of Infinite Substances , and then Consider whether Contradictions would so Immediately and at first Sight seem to appear in this Hypothesis . But I shall deliver my mind a little more freely to him , relating to the matter of this Section when I come to his 63d . But I have not so done with this , but shall farther Consider what it sayes . And be he pleased to take notice , that there is nothing in this Acute Arguing , except he means by Infinite Substances , Substances of an Infinite Quantity , or Bigness . But I hope he will be so far from attributing Quantity or Bigness to the Substance of the Deity , that he will not do it to the Substance of an Angel or Humane Soul. 2. It next follows , To suppose one Infinite Substance to Emane from another , is to suppose the whole entire Substance to Emane from it self . But this I deny , and do Acknowledg that if I granted it , I must without any farther troubling either him or any of his Brethren , bid adieu to the Fathers Hypothesis they are so displeased with , as a plainly Contradictions one : Seeing it asserts a real Distinction of the Divine Substances , tho' no Difference in them . It follows 3. And what makes it stranger , is , that the two Infinite Substances Emaned from the Fathers single Substance , yet there was no diminution in the Substance of the Father ; it is as Infinite as it was at first . But how should this make the Hypothesis Stranger , when it would be the Strangest thing in the World , if the Divine Substance were Capable of the least Diminution , since those that believe Spiritual Substances , know that none of them are : But anon a little more of this . But it may be said , saith he , 4. Why may not one Infinite , as well as one Finite , proceed from another ? And then he thus answers himself , But nothing can be more absurd , than to suppose one Finite ( much more two ) to Proceed from one but of the same Bigness . Yes , I 'le tell him what is more Absurd , viz. To suppose one or more Infinite Substances , to Proceed from another Infinite Substance of the same Bigness . This is more Absurd , because there is one more Contradiction in this Supposition than in that , viz. That Bigness belongs to a Spiritual Substance ; which kind of Substance , I hope he will acknowledg to be alone Capable of Infinity . But as notable Work as our Author makes , at demonstrating the Absurdity of two infinite Substances Emaning from one , I fancy I know those who may almost as much put him to it , to defend the Non-Absurdity of a Sparks being kindled by ( or Emaning from ) a Spark ( both being of the same bigness ) as a Trinitarian shall need to be by his Arguments ( I will not be so rude as to Call them Cavils ) against the Possibility of the Other Emanation . But to use his own Phrase infinite Substance , 't is so far from being impossible , that an infinite Substance , should Emane from an infinite Substance , or ( to use the Scripture-Phrase ) be begotten by it , that if any Being can Emane or be begotten by an infinite Substance , it must be infinite too . For , as Athanasius saith , It is impossible that that which is begotten , should be a different Essence from that which Begat . The Reader may see what is farther said of Emanations , in 2d Defence p. 26. I have abundantly too much business lying now upon my hands , to find Leisure for so Close a Consideration of all that this Gentleman hath reflected on the 28. Propositions , as possibly I might apply my self to , had I time to Spare . But the Truth is , I find his Arguing to be such , as if well followed upon Other Arguments , it might make those , who are willing to be so , down right Scepticks , as to almost Every thing . He needs not to be informed , what doughty Dexterity a Sophister might shew in making it out , that Creation is a Perfect Impossibility : That Eternity in both the Notions thereof , is a Monstrous Contradiction to the Reason of our Minds . And that so is also the Notion of an Incorporal Substance . And of Liberty , nay even in God Himself : And of the Divine Omnipresence : And that both parts of a Contradiction may possibly be true . And perhaps a thousand other things , for which we have the highest Rational Evidence , may be Exposed to Ridicule , by a Man who loves to Chop Logick . And likewise a many other things , the Contrarys to which , we have even Ocular and the most Sensible demonstrations of , may one make such a shew of demonstrating , as to Baffle most men . As that there is no such thing as Motion : That a Body can have no influence upon a Spirit , nor a Spirit upon a Body : and much less can they be vitally United : That 't is impossible that Will and Thought should Stir a Finger : That all Bodies are alike Big , &c. I say most , if not all , these Strange Propositions , are Capable of being with as Plausible a shew of reason defended by a Subtile Sophister , as the Emanation of the Son and Holy Ghost from the Father hath bin now Confuted by this Gentleman . So that I cannot but apply those words of the Apostle to such Disputers , They have turned aside unto vain jangling , understanding neither what they say , nor whereof they affirm . But I have said Enough to this Section : Each of the following , I shall ( I think ) dispatch as Easily . Sect. 58. He saith , that whatsoever Emanes , or any way proceeds , from a Self-Existent Substance ( except it were Created and then joyned to it ) is as Self-Existent as that Substance . But I say with as great assurance , that whatsoever Substance Emanes from another , must Owe its Existence to that other ; and the Contrary is a manifest Contradiction . As to his Reason for thus asserting , viz. Because before its Emanation , it was a Part of the Self-Existent Substance , it is taken from Material Substances , which do Consist of Parts ; but this cannot be said of Spiritual ones , because they are not divisible , and therefore have no Parts . And it is Observable too , how well this Reason Suits to Eternal Emanations . Sect. 59. This Section hath several very Surprizing things in it . As 1. Our Author cannot see , since the Son and Spirit are necessary Emanations , how they owe their Origin more to the Father , than the Father Owes His to them . Which is as much as to say , since the Tree necessarily issues forth from the Root , and the Rays from the Sun , therefore the Root owes its Origin no less to the Tree , and the Sun to its Rays , than the Tree to the Root , and the Rays to the Sun. 2. His Reason for that Assertion is , that the Father Son and Spirit are all three of a Substance , that is Self-Existent . But I say onely the two latter are so , for the First ( as he needs not to be told ) is the Self Existent Substance ; not of or from such a substance . But if he asks me How they Emane from the Father , I know not which of us would be the more Presumptuous , he for Asking , and for Endeavouring to Answer thatQuestion . But ( on second thoughts ) I will undertake to Answer it , when he shall be pleased to Answer me this , How did your self come into Being ? Or , What is the Modus how any thing comes to be what it is , or to be at all ? 3. He adds , Nor could the Father more than They , be the cause of the Separation , since They necessarily Separated from one another . But can I need to mind him , that our Hypothesis will not bear a Separation between the Divine Persons , and only asserts a Distinction betwen them ? And sure I need not tell him , that he is not over-fit to Write Books , who knows not that Distinction , and Separation , and Difference too , are Several things . But 4. Whereas he saith that , no one of these Persons can be the cause of their Separation , because they Necessarily Separated , doth he think that God can be the Necessary Cause of nothing ? Or that He is in His own nature Indifferent to every thing ? If he believes ( for Instance ) that the Perfection of His Nature doth not Necessarily determine Him , to what is best ; or to do whatsoever He in His Infinite Wisdom knows fit to be done , I hope there are not many of his mind . He saith , 5. That it is another Contradiction to Affirm , that an Infinite Substance is divided into Three Infinite Parts . How does our Author already run Taplash ! But I will not therefore forbear Replying , and I Answer , No doubt it is a Horrid Contradiction so to Affirm . But how rank does this smell of the Gross thing called Body ! His mind runs altogether upon Material Substances , which alone I say have Parts to be divided into . And if a Spiritual Substance cannot be divided into spiritual Parts , much less can an Insinite Spiritual Substance be divided into Infinite Spiritual Parts . And he who thinks that a Spirit can be divided into parts , had as good never take that word into his Mouth , and much less can he Pretend to believe it a thing of an Immortal nature , which whosoever does not , whatever Theologers they may be , I can't admire them for Philosophers . 6. He makes it in what follows an Absurdity to deny that whatsoever proceeds from another thing , must be in Order of Time after it . These are his words , Whatsoever Proceeds from a thing must first be in it , Except it can be in it and Proceed from it , at the same time . But as we never thought of such a thing , as the Two Persons so Proceeding , as to be Separated from the First ; nor of any more than their having their Origin from Him , so this they may have and yet still be in Him , and might ever have been in Him. Can our Author think ( not to trouble him too often with the Rays being from the Sun , and yet as Old as it ) that all Thoughts must be Younger than Minds , because they have their Original from them . This can be denied by none , that make Minds to be Thinking Beings : I mean , that do acknowledg Thinking to be Essential to Minds . But this I have spoken to in the Preceding Defence . p. 29 , 30 , &c. Sect. 60. He saith , That it had bin Intolerable in the Pagans , to believe those Rays that come from the Sun , to be the Sun it self . And I need say no more , than that it is as Intolerable to believe the Son and Spirit , who have their Existence from the Father , to be the Father Himself . But I desire him to think sedately with himself , whether Gods Decrees could none of them be Eternal , I Phansy he is not so much a School-man as to answer , Gods Decrees are God Himself . Sect. 61. He saith , what I further add are direct Contradictions , reciting several more things Conteined in my Propositions ; and this is the whole of this Section . Here is not one word of Proof , that any one of them is a Contradiction ; and therefore I have nothing to add here . Sect. 62. He affirms , 1. That Necessary Existence from Eternity is as great a Perfection , as Self-Existence . But not to tell him , that whatsoever doth necessarily Exist , must have bin from Eternity , and therefore such an Existence is never attributed to a Creature ; I do absolutely deny , that necessary Existence from Another , is as great a Perfection as necessary Existence from Ones self . Can our Author in his Cool thoughts imagine it is ? He saith 2. If the Father hath given Existence to any Being , which he cannot take away , He would Cease to be Almighty . But I conceive , that to suppose that the Father can make a Being to Cease , which hath a Necessary Existence from Him , would be a Contradictions supposal ; and that Contradictions being Objects of no Power , cannot be Objects of Divine Power ; and that therefore the Almightiness thereof Consisteth in an Ability to do whatsoever Implyes not a Contradiction , or that Power can do : And so doth our Author conceive too . He saith , 3. That Self . Existence Separate from those Powers , which can only belong to a Self-Existent Being , is no Perfection . But I ask him , how Self-Existence can be Separated from those Powers ? and if it cannot , What does this saying Signifie ? And it is certain it cannot . But if he means Abstracted by Separate , as he used a very Improper word to express his thoughts by , I deny that the Notion of Self-Existence abstracted from all other Considerations whatsoever , Implyeth no Persection . And I have as much Liberty to Contradict him without giving my Reason , as he hath to Affirm this without giving his . But indeed this denial of mine needs no Reason , for that Self-Existence is as Such a Perfection is Self-Evident , or I know not what is so . But were it not that I find him in one of these Sections , asserting Creation out of nothing , this Passage would lead me to a very shrewd Suspicion , that he is of Wolzogenius his Mind , and some others of his Brethren , That God is not the only Self-Existent Being , but that the Rude Chaos was , and therefore all Matter now is , Self-Existent too . And if they could demonstrate this to me , I Confess I should do what lyes in me , to think Self-Existence to be no Perfection at all , in spight of its being Self-Evident that it is a great Perfection , if not the greatest . 4. He saith , That if the Persons have the some Unlimited Perfections , but their Manner of getting them was different , that would not cause any Inequality betwen them . But I say it would ; that is in reference to their Manner of Existence , tho' not in reference to their mere Essence . What follows , is but dilating on the same thing , and repeating what hath been already Considered . Sect. 63. He asks , 1. How the Father can be greater than the Son and H. Spirit , and be the only Good , when they have the same Unlimited Power and Goodness ? I Answer , They have an Unlimited Power , but not the Same Unlimited Power with the Father . Ad Extrà , or in relation to the Creation , their Power is Unlimited ; but no body will say , that ad Intrà , it is the same with the Fathers , Except he can believe , that the Son could Beget the Father , as the Father hath Begot the Son. And as to the Fathers being called by our Saviour the Only Good , in that he saith There is none Good but God , I have said in my Propositions ( with Grotius and others ) that that Phrase must needs signifie the Only Original Good , or the Only Fountain of Goodness ; which the Father may be , and yet not the onely Perfectly Good. And I think that the Perfection of Self-Existence belonging to the Father alone , and therefore those Perfections too , which do necessarily suppose Self-Existence , the Father may most truly be said to be greater than the Son and H. Spirit , although all the Perfections of these Persons are Unlimited . 2. He asks , What greater Absurdity there can be , than that Beings which have Infinite Unlimited Perfections , should want some Perfections ? I Answer , that indeed there cannot be a greater Absurdity than to say , that a Being which hath an Infinite Number of Unlimited Perfections , can want some ; this would be an Ab'urdity with a Vengeance : But I doubt I am not Capable of understanding where lyes the Absurdity of asserting , That a Being which hath not the Perfection of Self-Existence , and those that suppose it , may notwithstanding have in as high a degree as can be those Perfections which they have . 3. He saith , That a Being cannot be partly Infinite and partly Finite . And so he runs on upon Infinite , Infinite , which he all along does ; and the reason of it is obvious enough , viz. because it is a rare Amusing Confounding Word , for my Brains , and the Brains of his Readers ; there is not such another to be met with for the purpose . But Infinity is not a thing to be made so bold with , or talk't of with such freedom and Confidence , as he still does , as if it were a very familiar matter . But I say again , it is no such Monstrous business to Imagine , that a Being which hath not Every Perfection , may have those it is possessed of , in the Highest degree . If I cared to talk things which I understand nothing of , I could talk too of Infinity ; and say , that there are several sorts of Infinity : That there is Infinity of Substance : And Infinity of Quantity : And Infinity of Duration : And Infinity of Space ; and God knows how many more Infinities : And could shew that there is no Absurdity in saying , that all these Infinities do not necessarily belong to every one of these , and I should get great Reputation among Wise men for my pains , should they Catch me thus Employing my Tongue or Pen. But now I think better of it , I find I am not quite so Ignorant , as I thought I was ; for I can tell this Gentleman , that a Being Can be partly infinite and partly not ; since I have learned that Angels and Humane Souls are so : That is , with respect to the Infinity of Duration they are infinite à Parte Post , tho' not à Parte antè . And what a rare Notion is this ! Sect. 64. As to the little that is here said , viz. Upon the Odious Topick of Tritheism , I referr him to my Reply to the Considerator , my much more Ingenuous Adversary , which I presume he hath read , tho' he takes no notice of it . Sect. 65. Here is nothing to be spoken to without Repetitions ; and I want time to make them , and he is not in such want of Sense as to need them . Sect. 66. Here he Misrepresents me , and argues upon his Misrepresentation . See Prop. 13th . Sect. 67. Considering what I have said to the Considerator , and already to this Person , relating to the matter of this Section , I shall onely observe upon it , 1. That I wonder how any man that hath a due Awe of the Infinite Majesty of God upon his Mind , can give himself leave to use such an Expression , as Tacking two Persons to God the Father . I scrupled a while , whether I might foul my Pen with Transcribing it . 2. He tells us that Nothing can be more Absurd than to say , that the 3. Persons are One God by Union , and yet are distinct from One Another . But is there no difference betwixt Union and Identity or self samenefs ? Is there not a real distinction between our Souls and Bodys , tho' United so closely as that he cannot conceive how closely , nor any Man else ? If he shall say , that Union is but another word for Composition , I shall say he is Extreamly out . Composition being a blending or mixing of the Parts of distinct things . The word is Commonly used onely of Heterogeneous things : Spiritual Substances therefore having no parts , are incapable of being Compounded . And , in my poor Opinion , tho' a Man Consists of a Soul and Body , he cannot be said to be Compounded of them , because onely one of these hath parts . Our Author 't is like will Cry Mystery ! Mystery ! to this Talk ; as he despiseth Trinitarians for calling the Union of the three Divine Persons a Mystery : But if even to the Union of the two Created Beings himself Consists of , he cannot Seriously Cry Mystery , I know what I know of him . I will not say Every Witty Man , but I am sure Every Wise Man will cry Mystery ! to Every thing , as ill as some can bear that word . I confess no Man shall perswade me any more than him and his Friends , to swallow a Palpable Contradiction by calling it a Mystery , till he can perswade me too that God Almighty indued me with false Faculties ; and then , do what I can , I am like to believe but few things more than Cogito ergo Sum. But I am as certain as I can be of any thing but what I see or feel , that it is not more difficult to understand this Union , than Abundance of other things Relating to the Deity , and innumerable things which our Author must believe in spight of Fate , if he will be a Christian , or a Theist , or but a Man. Sest . 68. He here Banters the real Trinitarians , as doing very Wisely in supposing their three infinite Substances , to be as close together as can be , lest there should not be room enough for them , in but one infinite Space , &c. And then he Enquires , if the Substance of the Father be Every where , how the Substance of the Son can be every where too ? I shall be a little closer upon this Gentleman for the strange liberty he takes in talking of Infinite Substances , as soon as I have done with his Sections , than I have bin yet or will now be . In the mean time , I will be satisfied to Reply thus to this Section , viz. Doth not this kind of Talk Suppose , that he takes the three Divine Persons ( if he thinks two of them are any thing ) to be Corporeal Substances ? which is so gross a Conceit , and speaks such beastly Stupidity , that I would charge no Man therewith , who doth not Expresly own it . But , hoping he doubts not of the Being of Spiritual substances , nor of the Divine Omnipresence , I ask him how the Substance of God the Father can be in those spaces which are filled with Bodies ? Or how can his Soul and Body , or that part of his Body which his Soul possesseth ( if his Philosophy will permit him to think it doth not pervade the whole of his Body ) how can they be , I say , in the Self-same place or Ubi , call it which he pleases ? Surely , one would think , that several Spirits may be together in the same individual space , seeing the Penetrability of Spirits must be acknowledg'd by all that believe there are such Substances ( except they have no manner of Notion of what they believe ) as well as that a Spirit and an Impenetrable Body may be together in the same space . As to his adding [ and after the same manner ] to [ at the same time ] this can be onely for a Blind . But we may talk Endlesly upon this Subject , and little understand one another or Our selves ; for this , for certain , is one of those things , which our minds were never made for any thing like a clear perception of ; at least in these gross Bodies . And much more then ( as he will be shewed anon ) is the infinity of the Divine Substance to be reckoned of that number . And he is an intolerably Conceited Fop , who will not Confess so much Ignorance , as to have no other Idea of Gods Infinity , than that He hath all Possible Perfections , and that all His Perfections are Unlimited . And we are at a perfect loss what to say or think further about the Divine Essence . Nay , we have now no Cognizance of more than the Modes and Properties of Bodily Substance , we have none at all of its Naked Essence . All we can say of Body as Body , is , that 't is Extended Penetrable Bulk . Sect. 69. He saith , 1. That the Trinitarians say , the Persons are one God , as the Soul and Body are one Man : And then he Exposeth the folly of that Simile . But he might have saved himself this little labour ; for as I never said so , so neither know I of any other Trinitarian that hath . The Creed indeed which is called the Athenasian , saith , That as the Soul and Body are one Man , so God and Man are one Christ ; but what is this to his Purpose ? But what I have said , is , That the Union between the three Divine Persons , is not more Unaccountable , than is the Union between the Soul and Body ; and that in one respect it is less Unaccountable than this Union , viz. because this is between Beings of perfectly Unlike Natures ; whereas that is between Persons of the same Nature . And why distinct intelligent substances , which is the onely definition I can give of Persons , may not be as closely United because they are all intelligent , as one intelligent Substance and a Body , is above the little Philosophy that I can pretend to be Master of , to understand . 2. Upon the Simile , of the Close Union of the Sun with its Light and Heat , as he words it ; he saith , There are no such Perceptions as those we call Light and Heat , in any Beings , but those that are Capable of seeing and feeling ; And that this every Common Systeme demonstrates : And that this is Obvious to all but Children and Metaphysicians . What a Wonderful Piece of Learning is here ! 1. Light and Heat Perceptions ! I have heard of Perceptions and Sensations of Light and Heat , but that they are Perceptions and Sensations themselves , I have hitherto bin to learn. 2. But they are not ( tho' ) Perceptions in any Beings , but such as have faculties Capable of Seeing and Feeling . And 't would be some what Extraordinary , if any thing could perceive Light and Heat , that can neither see nor feel . Yet I am a little mistaken , if Heat , and Light too , cannot have some Operation on Bodies , which have never a One of the Five Senses . 3. He saith , that every Common Systeme demonstrates , that there are no such Perceptions as Light and Heat , but in things that are Capable of seeing and feeling . A goodly Demonstration ! But the Commonness of it may make it the less Observable . But it is pretty much it should be demonstrated in Every Common Systeme , and I should never Light on it in any one Systeme . But 't is no matter , since I am a little too Old to be a Child ( unless twice one ) and then to be a Metaphysician too ; for I am told to my Comfort , 4. That this Notion is Obvious to all but Children and Metaphysicians . Yet 't is Obvious to this Gentleman , tho' a Metaphysician ; as I dare warrant him he is ( whether he knows it or no , as 't is like he does not since he so despising them ) or he could never be so Notable at infinity , and other most Sublime and Abstruse Matters . 5. But in good Earnest , I am so dull as to be utterly unable to imagine , but that Light would be Light ( whatsoever is to be thought of Colours ) tho' there were no Eyes to Perceive it : And such a Heretick in Philosophy ( whether I am in Divinity or no ) as to think , that it is an Aggregation of a certain sort of Particles , as much as Air is . And therefore I am not like in haste to be shamed out of the Fathers Simile , of Emanations of Light from the Sun. Nor do I think that our Author himself , will ever be able to demonstrate any Absurdity in conceiving , that Heat differs onely gradually from Fire , and Light from both : And that Fire is a fluid Constituted of an Excessively small sort of Particles , and therefore very Active , Subtile and Piercing ; and that a Collection of these Minute bodys in such a quantity , and so closely as to become an Object of Sight , is that which we Express by the words Fire and Flame ; and a less close Collection is what we call Heat . And that Flame differs from Fire , as it is a more dispersed Collection of these Particles , than Fire ; and Light from both , as it is a thinner Collection of them than either of the other : I say , I do not think that our Author , as Skilled as he is content to be thought to be in Physicks ( tho' not in Metaphysicks ) can demonstrate that these are Absurd Notions . Sect. 70. There is nothing to be taken notice of in this very small Section , But our being Charged with Terminating our Devotions in Each of the three Persons in our Praying to Each of them . But I say , this is a very false Charge ; for we as heartily acknowledg that all the Honour we pay to the Son , and H. Spirit , ought to be Ultimately terminated in God the Father , tho' we believe they are not Creatures , as those Socinians do who are for giving Divine Honour to the Son , believing Him to be a Creature and a mere Man. And I am sure he cannot think otherwise , of those whom he calls the Real Trinitarians , because their Hypothesis necessarily obligeth them so to believe , what ever the Hypothesis of the Other does . But the H. Scripture is so Express upon this point , that I should think no Christian should find it hard to believe it : No , tho' there were no Other Text but this for it , viz. — That at the Name of Jesus , every knee should bow , of things in Heaven , and things on Earth , and things under the Earth : And that Every Tongue should confess , that Jesus Christ is Lord , to the Glory of God the Father . Having now done with my Adversarie's Reflexions upon the 28. Propositions , I will make bold to Argue a while with himself ; and to give him a Sample of his Reasoning . With as Infallible Assurance , Sir , as you Talk of Infinite Substances , and Reason against the Possibility of the Sons and H. Spirits being Infinite Substances from the Nature of such Substances ; I never yet met with your Fellow , if you will pretend to have a distinct and Explicite Idea of the thing call'd Substance ; but I know not what Epithet to give you , if you can take the Liberty to tell me , that you have any such Idea of Infinity , as it relates immediately to a Substance . You have indeed told us , that an Infinite Substance is that which hath no Bounds or Limits ; but did you think you then gave us a Definition of an infinite Substance ? No , you are a Wiser Man than so ; or than to hope that the Construing of a Word , would pass with any but Children and Fools for a Definition of a thing . But suppose , Sir , that I were so Easy , as to accept of Boundlesness and Unlimitedness for a Definition , or Description of Infinity , yet I should ( Ten to One ) put this Question ( whether an Easy one or no ) What is the Infinity of a Substance ? You will not say , this is an Easy Question because Answered already , viz. That the Infinity of a Substance , is the Boundlesness thereof ; for you know you must tell us what a Substance is , before you can make us the Wiser , by discoursing upon Infinite Substances , Or the Infinity of a Substance . If you will now be defining this Thing Called Substance , by certain of its Properties , I cannot for bear Proceeding to ask , What is the Subject of these Properties ? Or , What is Substance Considered abstractedly from all Accidents ? If you tell me , it is something that doth Substare Accidentibus , and needs no Support it self , I must be Satisfied with this Answer , since I know you will not Attempt to give a better . But however I will not be discouraged , from Asking on a while longer , tho' you should give me the Proverb for my Pains : And this Question next Occurrs , viz. Since an Insinite Substance is something that hath no Bounds , must it not reach to all the dimensions of Infinite Space , which you were up with in your 68th . Section ? One might be tempted to think , that after you had said absolutely , as you did Sect. 57. There can be no Bound or End of what is Infinite , you will grant this ; for if it were Extended through the length and breadth of a Million of Worlds , if there be so many , this would not speak it to have no Bound or End ; since all these Worlds put together will not fill a Boundless Space . But then I ask what is Space ? Or ( to speak a little Learnedly ) What is the Ratio formalis of Space ? And you have a ready Answer for me , viz. 'T is Vacuity or Emptiness . Then demand I , What kind of thing is Emptiness ? And you have an Answer at hand to this too , viz. 'T is an Imaginary thing . And when I have asked , What is a mere Imaginary thing ? I am much mistaken , if a Man of your Head-Piece will in the least hesitate at Replying , A mere Imaginary thing , is a real Nothing . And then , Sir , This is your Disinition of an Infinite Substance , It is a thing that is of Equal Extent with an Infinite Nothing . But hold ! Cry you , Who gave you leave thus to ask me Questions , and then to answer them as you list for me ? I would have told you , that my Phrase without Bounds or Limits , is not to be taken so Strictly , as to surpass the Space which holds All Worlds . But , Sir , will this Answer do ? Is , after all your Arguing from the Infinity of the Divine Substance , your Notion of it onely this , that it is as much without Bounds as Gods Creature the Universe ? And can this Consist with your having Asserted , that 't is a Contradiction to say , that there can be more than One Infinite Being ? But I foresee you will go near to Reply , My Notion thereof is far from being so scanty a one as you Imagine ; for I hold , that the Infinity of the Divine Substance , Consists in its Power to Extend its Presence thro' all the parts of New Worlds , as they are Created ; which God Almighty can if he pleases Create to All Eternity . But then say I , will you pretend , Sir , to have any the least Idea , How the Divine Substance can do this ? And is not this Dilatation and farther Expansion thereof , think you , Capable of being made as Ridiculous and Contradictory a thing , by such a Wit as yours , as you think you have made Emanations from thence to be ? I know you cannot but be Aware , that it is certainly so . And therefore let the Reader judg , what Prodigious Monstruous Presumption it is , Excuse me if I am now a little warm , to draw most Confident Conclusions from Premises , which are Unspeakably above the reach of Humane Understandings ; as the Gentleman I have now bin Socratically talking with , must Confess the Premises are , from which he hath Argued against me . Nay , they must be above the Comprehension of all Finite , as well as Humane Understandings ; Or Nothing is so . For my part , I dare not trust my Shallowness with two Thoughts upon such a Subject as this of Infinite Substances , nor of an infinite Substance neither . I have a distinct Notion of a Being Absolutely Perfect , and Beings of Unlimited Perfections , tho' infinitely Short of a Comprehensive One , and therefore I chose to use onely such Expressions in my Propositions . And because these are in some measure adapted to Humane Capacities , the Deity is Every where described in H. Scripture , by its Glorious Perfections of Wisdom , Power , Goodness , Mercy , Righteousness and Purity ; and by its most Wonderful Exertions and Displayings of them in the Creation : And by these are the Son and H. Spirit described there as well as God the Father . Wherefore I could not without mighty Regret Critizare Cum Cr●tensi ( taking the Phrase , for paying our Author in his own Coyn ) as I now did , had I not so good a design therein , as to Expose the Folly and Madness of the Liberty which he and others take , with the most Profoundly Adorable Deity . Can such Persons read those Questions of Zophar , without Astonishment , which he put to Job , Ch. 11. 7 , &c. Canst thou by Searching find out God ? Canst thou find out The Almighty to Perfection ? It is as High as Heaven , what Canst thou do ? Deeper than Hell , what Canst thou know ? The Measure thereof is longer than the Earth , and Broader than the Sea. And now I have done with this Author , as well as with his Reflexions ; who must not take it unkindly , that I have been so plain with him ; there being not the least of Ill-Will in it , but the greatest Good-Will I am sure . And notwithstanding we differ so mightily in our Sentiments , I wish him as well as I do my self . If any do expect that I will be still Replying on , as I am farther Attackt , they 'l find themselves disappointed , Unless such Objections shall happen to be offered , against the Hypothesis of the Fathers , the Non-Absurdity of which I Endeavour to desend , as have not yet appeared . And if such hereafter appear , as upon Impartial Consideration I shall think Convictive , I will not ( by God's Grace ) be ashamed to Confess that I have bin in an Errour . But rather shall think , I cannot do my self a greater Honour , as I cannot do a greater Right to Truth , than by publishing a Recantation . But I will not be so Idle , as to Contend for the Last Word with such Men as I know will never yield it me ; I mean those who will not distinguish between dicibile & dicendum , what it is possible to say and what ought to be said ; but will adventure to say any thing , and turn Every Stone , and put their Wits to their utmost Stretch , to invent Replys and Rejoynders , rather than let their Pens rest ; and much more , rather than they 'l own the least Mistake . And where-ever I find a deal of Art and Subtilty , and mightily Laboured Oppositions , Defences or Provings , I cannot but Suspect , that the desire of Victory , and the Encreasing or Upholding of a Party , or Mens great Opinion of their own Understandings , have very much the Ascendent of the Love of Truth . But how may the Learned Socrates shame the Self-conceited Dogmatizers ? Who would not acknowledg that the Oracle could have any other Reason to Pronounce himself The Wisest of all Men , but Because he knew how ignorant he was ; and did not think he knew , what indeed he did not . And how may those words of S Paul , lay the Plumes of these Gnosticks , viz. If any man thinketh he knoweth any thing , ( or Prideth himself in an Opinion of his being a Knowing Person ) he knoweth nothing yet , as he ought to know . And it is certain , that the more Sincerely and Impartially Inquisitive any Man is after Truth , the less Stiff , Opiniative and Pertinacious he will be ; and the less Confident of those Notions which are very disputable : Because such a man is no less acquainted , with the Strongest Objections against them , than with the best Arguments for them . And the more Extensive Knowledge any one hath acquired , the more vigorously sensible will he be , that he knows but very little . Nor is any Man in a Capacity of Perceiving such Shallowness and Emptiness in his Mind , as he who is surnished with the Largest Stock of the most Useful Knowledge . The more we know of the Deity , and the Stupendious works of Creation and Providence , with the greater Amazement shall we Cry out with Holy Job , How little a Portion is heard of Him ! How little am I Capable of understanding , either of Him or them ! And the more a Man hath enquired into the Works of Nature , the more Conscious will he be to himself , how Extreamly little he hath bin able to discover , even of the most despised things ; and such as the Vulgar take for granted , to have nothing belonging to them , that will afford any Matter for Enquiry . There is no such Antidote therefore against Pride , as the most Substantial and Comprehensive Knowledg , whereas nothing makes a Man so Conceited and Self-assuming , as a small Smattering of Learning . And there are no such Masters of Reason ( in their own Opinion ) as such Men. The most Ancient Fathers , when they han't the good Luck to be of these Mens mind , are Old Dunces ; and as nothing is the truer for their saying it , so neither is it one jot the more like to be true . Nor is Novelty and Objection to them , against the Probability of any darling Opinion . How much rather would I be Modest Socrates , than a Christian who so leans to his own ( or his Parties ) Understanding . In what I have now bin saying , I cannot for bear thinking , of more Denominations than One of Professors of Christianity . But yet I have bin far from Reflecting upon all of any Denomination . I am not such a Censurer . God give us All more Humility . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A40088-e570 Dr. Cudworth , and Dr. Bull. Notes for div A40088-e14570 Orat. ● . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉