The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament. 1663 Approx. 385 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 85 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A69753 Wing C4226 Wing C4225 ESTC R6298 12379499 ocm 12379499 60691 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A69753) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 60691) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 655:2 or 655:3) The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament. Forbes, John, 1593-1648. Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646. [3], 36, [11], 40-168 p. : coats of arms. Printed by John Forbes, Aberdene : 1663. Added title page: Generall demands concerning the late covenant : propounded by the ministers and professors of divinity in Aberdene ... Aberdene : Reprinted by John Forbes, 1662. Each of the answers and replies has a special t.p. The "Demands" and "Replies" are by John Forbes, Alexander Scrogie, William Lesley, Robert Baron, James Sibbard, and Alexander Ross; the "Answers" are by Alexander Henderson, David Dickson, and Andrew Cant. Imperfect: copy at 655:2 lacks cover t.p. (Wing C4226). Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Church of Scotland. Solemn League and Covenant (1643) Covenants -- Scotland. 2004-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-06 Tonya Howe Sampled and proofread 2004-06 Tonya Howe Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion GENERALL DEMANDS , Concerning the Late COVENANT ; Propounded by the Ministers and Professors of DIVINITY in ABERDENE : To some Reverend Brethren , who came ●●ither to recommend the late Covenant to th●● , and to those who are committed to their charge : TOGETHER With the Answeres of those reverend Brethren to the said Demands : As also The Replyes of the foresayd Ministers & Professors to their Answers . 1. PET. 3. 15. 16. Sanctifie the LORD GOD in your hearts , and be readie alwayes to give an answere to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you , with meeknes and feare : Having a good Conscience , that whereas they speake evil of you , as of evill doers , they may be ashamed that falslie accuse your good conversation in CHRIST . ABERDENE , Reprinted by JOHN FORBES , Anno Dom. 1662. GENERALL DEMANDS , Concerning the late Covenant : Together with Answeres to them , and Replyes to those Answeres . THE FIRST DEMAND . BY what Power , or Warrand , these our Reverend Brethren can sure of us , or of our People , subscription to this late Covenant ; not being sent by his MAJESTY , or by the Lords of Counsell , nor by anie Nationall Synode of this Kingdome , nor by any Judicatorie established in it ? And , how they can enforce upon us , or upon our People , who are no wayes subject unto them , their Interpretation of the Articles of the Negative Confession ? In respect whereof , as also in respect of that Band of mutuall Defence against all persons what-so-ever , this late Covenant is substantiallie different , from that which was subscribed by the KING and his Subjects , Anno 1580 , and 1581. ANSWERE . VVEE are not come hither , to usurpe the Authoritie of any Civill or Spirituall Iudicatorie , or to enforce upon our Reverend Brethren , and the People committed to their Charge , the subscription of the late Covenant , or the Interpretation of the Articles of that Confession which is called Negative , or what-so-ever else of that kynde : But are sent , to represent unto them , in all humility , the present Case and Condition of this Kirke and Kingdome ; crying for help at their handes also : and , in Brotherlie love , to exhort , and intreat , that they will be pleased , to contribute their best Endeavours , for extinguishing the common Combustion , which by joining with almost the whole Kirke and Kingdom , in the Late Covenant , we trust they may lawfully doe , without prejudice to the King's Majestie , or to any lawfull Iudicatorie , or to that Confession of Faith above mentioned : Since the sound Interpretation and Application thereof , to the Errours of our Times , can make no substantiall change , and the Band of Mutuall Defence , wherein we obliedge our selves , to defend the true Religion , and the King's Majesties Person , and Authoritie , against all persons whatsoever , is joined , at first , with the Confession of Faith. Lyke as his Majesties Commissioner objecting , That our Covenant was suspect , to be an unlawfull Combination against Authoritie , and to be the main hinderance of obtaining our desires , hath accepted , and was well pleased with our Declaration ; bearing , That we have solemnlie sworne , To the uttermost of our power , with our Means and Lives , to stand to the defence of the King's Majesty , as of GOD'S Vice-gerent , set over us , for the maintenance of Religion , and ministration of Justice . REPLY . VVE have , Reverend Brethren , sufficiently considered and examined your Answeres to our Demandes , by which we expected full satisfaction to all our Scruples and doubts concerning the late Covenant : But truelie , in Modestie and Brotherlie Love , we tell you , that your Answeres ( what-so-ever you thinke of them your selves ) have not given us that satisfaction which we expected . We know that some who rashly condemne every thing which is said or written contrary to the cause which they maintaine , will boldly say of us , that we have closed our eyes against a cleare and ingyring Light : But first , we say with Iob , Our witnesse is in Heaven , and our recorde is on high . That LORD who only seeth the secrets of hearts , knoweth , that we love His Trueth , and are ready so soone as it shall be shown unto us , to embrace and professe it before the World. Next , we appeale to the Consciences of all impartiall Readers , who shall have occasion to weygh and consider maturelie the weight of our Arguments , and of these Answeres which it hath pleased you to give us : wishing them , yea , most humblie and earnestly intreating them , to judge both of your writtings and ours , without prejudice , or any partiall respect . Yea , we are confident , that ye also , o● whose love to the Trueth of GOD we are perswaded , will after better advysement , and more mature consideration of the matters debated , acknowledge , that we are not against the Trueth , but for it . The LORD open your eyes , that you may clearly see , that Trueth for which we stand . WEE objected to you , Reverend Brethren , that you had not a Calling to urge us to the subscription of the late Covenant , from anie acknowledged Authority , or lawfull Judica●●rie established in this Church or Kingdome : to which Objection ye answere no● here particularlie , as we expected . And whereas you say , That you are come to exhort us , and our People , in all humilitie , to joyne with you ; how is it , that without our consent , and against our will , not having lawfull Authoritie , which you seeme here not to acclaime to your selves , you have publicklie preached to our People , within our Congregation ? which is a thing rep●gn●nt to those places of Scripture , in the which the Spirit of GOD recommendeth to Elders , or Pastors , the care of those Flockes , Over which the holy Ghost hath made them overseers , Acts 20. 28. 1. Pet. 5. 2 as also telleth us , That the Pastors whom the Flocke must know , and to whom they must submit themselves , doe watch over the Soules of that Flock , and must give account for them , 1. Thessal . 5. 12 Hebr. 13. 17. It is also con●rarie to the lawes of the Christian Church in all ages . For by the ancient Canons , Pastors are commanded , to containe themselves within the limites of their own Charge ; and not to presume to exercise Pastorall Office in another Pastors Diocesse , or Parioch , without leave : As also , they forbid Pastors , to receive to Divine Service , anie man of another Pariochin , that commeth in contempt of his own Pastor . Concil . Nicen. ● . Oecum . 1. Can. 16. Concil . 2. Oecum ▪ Constantinop . Can. 2. Concil . Carthag . 2. Can. 11. Concil . Carthag . 3. Can. 20. Concil . Chalced. Oecum . 4. Can. 13. Concil . Nicen. 2. Can. 10. Concil . Tribur . Can. 28. Concil . Nannet . Cap. 1. & 2. † 2. We did not without reason say , That you , and others of your Confederation , enforce your Interpretation of the Negative Confession upon others ; seeing we heare , that some Pastors and Prelates are forced to flee to forraygne Countreyes , for fear of their 〈◊〉 because they have refused the said Interpretation ; and those 〈…〉 ave stayed in the Countrey , dare scarcelie appear in the h 〈…〉 , or streets , and are threatned , that their Stipends shall not 〈◊〉 unto them , untill they subscrive your Covenant . † 3. Whereas you doe in Brotherly love exhort , and entreat us , to contribute our best endeavours for extinguishing the common Combustion , we praysing GOD , for your pious zeale , and for the lovingnesse and modesty of your speeches , ( wherein , by GOD'S help , we shall labour to keep correspondence with you ; that both we and you may show ●●● selves , to have learned of CHRIST , Meeknesse , and lowlinesse of heart ) we most willingly promise to doe so , by all means which our consciences will permit us to use , as also to joine our most humble and hearty Prayers with yours , that it may please GOD in this dangerous exigent , to doe good in His good pleasure , to our Sion , and to builde up the walls of our Ierusalem . † 4. We may justly say , that this new Covenant is substantially different from the Old , which was made Anno 1581. in respect it not onlie containeth that Old Covenant , or Confession , which was allowed by two Generall Assemblies , but also your interpretation of it , which , as yet , hath no such Authoritie , or Approbation . † 5. No Band of Mutuall Defence , Against all persons what-so-ever , is expressed in the Covenant made 1581. And altho it were , yet the case is very unlike : For Subjects may make such a Covenant of Mutuall Defence , by Armes , with the consent of the King , who only , under GOD , hath the power of Armes , or of the Sword , in this Kingdome . But they who made this late Covenant , had not his consent , as that former or olde Covenant had : which is a thing so evident , that no man can call it in question . † 6. As for that which you affirme here , that my Lord Commissioner his Grace was well satisfied with your Declaration , it becommeth not us , to pry narrowlie into his Graces doings : but truely we have more then reason , to pry most narrowlie into the words of a Covenant , which is offered unto us , to be sworne , and subscrybed , lest we abuse , and prophane the Sacred Name of GOD , and tye our selves to the doing of any thing which is displeasing unto him . Last of all ; whereas ye desire us , to joyne our selves to you , and to the rest of your Con●ederacie , who are ( as you affirme ) almost the whole Church and Kingdome , truely we cannot but reverence such a multitude of our Reverend Brethren , and deare Countrey-men , and are ready to be followers of them , in so farre as they are followers of CHRIST : But neither can we doe any thing agaynst the Trueth , neither can we attribute so much Authoritie to their multitude , as otherwise we would , in respect there hath been so much dealing for Subscriptions , in all quarters of this Kingdome , and so manie have beene threatned , to give their consent , as we are most credibly informed . The Second Demand . Whether or no we ought to subscryve the foresaid Covenant , seeing all Covenants of mutuall Defence , by force of Armes , made amongst Subjects of any degree , upon whatsoever colour or pretence , without the King's Majestie or his Successoures privitie and consent , are expreslie forbidden by King JAMES of blessed Memorie , and the three Estates of this Kingdome , in the Parliament holden at Linlithgow , Anno 1585 ? ANSWERE . The Act of Parliament forbiddeth in the first part , Leagues and Bands of maintenance privilie made , such as are called Bands of Manrent , as the act in Queen MARIES time , to which it hath relation , doeth beare . And in the second part , only such , as tend to the publick ▪ disturbance of the peace of the Realme , by moving sedition . But no act of Parliament doeth discharge , nor can any just Law forbid , Conventions or Covenants in the generall ; or such Covenants in speciall as are made with GOD , and amongst our selves ; not for any mans particular , but for the common benefite of all ; not to move Sedition , but to preserve Peace , and to prevent trouble : which by all probabilitie had been to many , before this time , too sensible , if this course had not been taken . Conventions and Covenants ( in the judgement of Jurisconsults ) are to be esteemed and judged of , according to their diverse ends , good or bad : which made King JAMES of happy memory to take it for an undoubted maxime , That pro aris & focis , & pro patre patriae , the whole body of the Common-wealth should stirre at once : not any more as divided members , but as one consolidate lumpe . Replye . In that second part of that Act of Parliament holden at Linlithgo , Anno 1585. are forbidden , All Leagues or Bands of Mutuall Defence , which are made without the privitie and consent of the KING , under the pain to be holden and execute as movers of sedition and unquietnesse , &c. Wherefore we can no wayes thinke , that any Bands or Leagues of Mutuall Defence , by force of Armes , are there permitted , ( that is , not forbidden ) seeing first the words of the Act are so generall , for in it are discharged All Bands made among Subjects of any degree , upon any colour what soever , without his Highnes , or his Successours , privitie and consent had and obtained thereunto . Next ; All such Bands are declared to be Seditious , and perturbative of the publicke Peace of the Realme : or , which is all one , are appointed to be esteemed so . And therefore , we can not see how any Bands of that kynde can be excepted , as if they were not seditious . 2. We doubt not , but the late Covenant being considered , according to the maine intention of those Pious and Generous Gentle-men , Barrons and others our dear Countrey men , who made it , especially our Reverend Brethren of the holy Ministery , is a Covenant made with GOD , and proceeding from a zealous respect to GOD His Glory , and to the preservation of the puritie of the Gospell in this Church and Kingdome : But we cannot finde a Warrand in our Consciences , to grant , that such Covenants , in so farre as they import mutuall Defence , against all persons what-so-ever , none being excepted , no , not the KING , ( as it seemeth unto us , by the words of your Covenant , but farre more by the words of your late Protestation , the 28 of Iune ; wherein you promise , mutuall Defence , against all externall or internall Invasion , menaced in his Majesties last Proclamation ) are not forbidden by any Band , nor justlie yet can be forbidden . For , first , we have already showne , that they are forbidden in the foresaid Act of Parliament , Anno 1585. 2. No Warrefare ; and consequentlie , no Covenant , importing Warrefare , is lawfull , without just Authoritie , which , we are perswaded , is only in the supreame Magistrate , and and in those who have power and employment from him , to take Armes : Yea , so farre as we know , all moderate men , who duely respect Authoritie , will say , that it is so in all Kingdomes , and Monarchies , properly so called : ( Of which nature is this his Majesties most Ancient Kingdome , ) And , that it is altogether unlawfull to Subjects in such Kingdomes , to take Armes against their Prince . For which cause , that famous and most learned Doctor Rivetus , in a late Treatise called Iesuita vapulans , speaking of the judgement of Buchannan , and others , who taught , that Subjects might take Armes against their Prince , in extraordinary Cases , and extreame dangers , of the Religion , and Common-wealth , professeth first , that he , and all other Protestants , condemne such doctrine . Secondly ; That this Errour did proceed from a mistaking of the Governement of the Scotish Kingdome , ●s if it were not truely & properly monarchical . Thirdly That the rashness of those wrytters , is to be ascrybed partlie to the hard and perilous times of persecution , wherein they lived , and partlie Sc●t●r●m praef●rv●do ingenio , et ad audendum prompto . Thus he wry●e●h in the 13. Chap. of the said Booke , Pag. 274. and 275. answering to the re●rimination of ● Iesuit , who had affirmed , that B●c●a●na● , Knox , and Goodman , had written as boldlie , for the Rebellion of Subjects against Princes , as any of their Order at any time load done . A thing much to be noted by us at this time , lest we any more give that advantage to Iesuites , to make Apologie for their rebellious Doctrines and Practises . 3. Not only making of Covenants , but also all other actions , are to be esteemed and judged of , first , by the equitie of the subject , and matter ; then , by the ende : For if the matter pactioned ( that is , which the parties mutuallie doe promise ) be justlie forbidden , by a lawfull Authoritie ; and consequentlie be unlawfull in it selfe ; then the goodnesse of the ende , or project , can not make the paction , or Covenant , to be good , or lawfull . The Third Demand . If it be alleadged , that in extream and most dangerous cases , such Acts of Parliament may be contraveened , Quaeritur , whether there be now such extream case , seeing we have his Majestie , in his former Proclamations , avowing , protesting , declaring , and in this last Proclamation taking God to witnesse , that he never intended any Innovation of Religion ; and also seeing He hath removed already all that which made men feare Novations , to wit , Service Booke , Booke of Canons , and the alleadged exorbitancie of the new high Commission . ANSWERE . If the removing of the Service Booke , Booke of Canons , and the limitation of the vast power of the high Commission , contayning so much superstition , and tyrrannie of Prelates , be a benefite to this Kirke and Kingdome , we ought , under GOD , to ascrybe the same to the peacable Meettings , humble Supplications , and religious Covenanting of the Subjects ; which have given information to his Majestie , and have procured from his justice and goodnesse , so great favour , as is thankfullie acknowledged in the last Protestation : which doeth also expresse the many particulars , wherein his Majesties late Proclamation is not satisfactorie . And therefore , the Lords of his Maesties Privie Counsell , upon the Supplication and Complaint of his Liedges , were moved to rescind the Act of the Approbation , of the foresaid Proclamation , and to rent the subscrybed Missive , which was to be sent therewith to his Majestie , We are consident , that the Declaration wherewith his Majesties Commissioner was so well pleased , will also give satisfaction to our Reverend Brethren ; and that they will not thinke it convenient for them to give further approbation to the Proclamation , then the Counsell hath done , although all of us ought , with thankfulnes , to acknowledge his Majesties benignitie . Replye . We will not here dispute what hath been the maine or principall cause moving his sacred Majestie to discharge the Service-Booke , and other things which occasioned the present perturbation of our Church ; nor yet whether or not his Majesties Proclamation may give full satisfaction to all the feares and doubts of his Subjects . For our selves , we professe , that upon his Majesties Declaration , and gracious Promise contained in his Majesties last Proclamation , we believe , first , that his Majestie never intended Innovation in Religion : Secondlie , that he will maintain the true Protestant Religion , all the dayes of his life : which we pray GOD to continue long . Thirdly , that all Actes made in favours of the Service-Booke , &c. are discharged . Fourthly that he will never urge the receiving of the Service Book ▪ Book of Cannons &c. or anie other thing of that Nature , but by such a faire and legal way , as shall satisfie all his Subjects . And thence we doe collect , that which we affirmed before , to wit , that ther is no such extraordinary or extream case , as might give occasion to Subjects to make such a Band , as is directly forbidden by the foresaid Act of Parliament , and to contraveane it in such a manner , as may seem to import a resisting of Authoritie by force of Armes . The Fourth Demand . Concerning that Interpretation of the Negative Confession , which is urged upon us , & wherin the Articles of Pearth , & Episcopacy are declared to be abjured , as well as all the points of Popery , which are therein expresly and distinctly mentioned ; Quaeritur , Who are the Interpreters of that Confession ? that is , Whether all the Subscrivers , or onely those Ministers conveened in EDINBURGH , in the end of Februarie , who set it down ? If all the Subscrivers ; then what reason have we to receive an interpretation of that Confession from Laicks , ignorant people , and children ? If onely those Ministers conveened then in EDINBURGH ; then , seeing no man should take an honour to himself , but he who is called of GOD , as AARON , Hebr. 5. 4. what power and authoritie had they over their Brethren , to give out a judiciall Interpretation of these Articles of Faith , and to inforce their Interpretation of these Articles upon them . ANSWERE . The subscrybers are here misinterpreted in two poyntes , very materiall : One is , that they presume upon power , or Authority , which they have to give out a judiciall interpretation of the Articles of the Confession , and to enforce the same upon others : whereas they onelie intended , to make knowne their own meaning , according to the minde of our Reformers ; and in charity to propound and recommend the same to others , who might be made willing to embrace it : Although it be true also , that very great numbers of Ministers were conveened , and testified their consent at that time : and although the private judgement of those who are called Laicks , ought not to be mis-regarded : for it is confessed , that an Interpretation , which is private ratione personae , may be more then privat ratione medii . The other , which being observed , will answere diverse of the following Demands , that the Articles of Pearth , and of Episcopal Government , are declared to be abjured , as points of Popery , or as Popish Novations : wheras the words of the Covenant put a difference betwixt two sorts of Novations : one is of such , as are already introduced in the Worship of GOD and concerning those , whatsoever be the judgement of the Subscryvers , which to every one is left free , by the words of the Covenant they are onelie bound , to forbear the practise of them , by reason of the present exigence of the Kirke , till they be tryed , and allowed , in a free Generall Assemblie . The other sort is of such Novations , as are particularlie supplicated against , and complained upon , as the Service-Booke , and Canons , &c. which are abjured , as containing points of Poperie . And this we avouch , from our certain knowledge , to be the true meaning of the controverted words of the Covenant . And therefore , humbly entreat that no man any more , upon this scruple , with-hold his Testimony ▪ Replye . As for the first of these two miss-takings : If you have not given out that interpretation of the Negative Confession judicially , but only have made known your own meaning , according to the minde of the Reformers , as you alleadge , then , first , your Interpretation hath no obligatory power over others ; and consequently you ought not to obtrude your Interpretation upon us more then we doe our Interpretation thereof upon you . Neither ought any man to be molested , or threatned , for not receiving your Interpretation ; chiefly seeing all who are of your Confederation have so solemnly vowed , and promised , to be good examples to others of all Godlinesse , Sobernes , & Righteousnesse , and of every duty which you owe to GOD and Man. Secondly , as for the minde or judgement of our Reformers , we know no evidencie of it , having publicke Authoritie , to obliedge the Subjects of this Kingdom , except that which is expressed in our Nationall confession of Faith , ratified in Parliament twentie yeares before the Negative Confession was penned : wherein we finde no warrand or ground of such Interpretation as you bring . Thirdly , The Interpretation of the Negative Confession , set down in your Covenant , as it is not publicke ratione Personae , so also not ratione medii : for it hath no Warrand , for ought we could ever perceive , either from the Word of GOD , or from the Testimony of the Ancient Church , or from the consent of other reformed Churches , or from our Nationall Confession , registrated in Parliament . As for the second Misstaking , o● Miss-interpretation of the words of the late Covenant , first , We marvell , that a Generall Covenant appointed to be subscrived by all , learned and unlearned , should have been set down by you in such ambiguous tearmes . For , truely , all men here , even the most judicious , doe so take your words , as if the Articles of PEARTH were in them abjured . 2. Wee have again more attentively examined the words of the late Covenant , and doe evidently perceive by them , That in the said Covenant , the Articles of PEARTH , and Episcopacy , are condemned , and abjured , as erronious , and damnable corruptions . For where you professe , and before GOD , and his Angels , and the World , solemnlie declare , that you shall labour , by all means lawfull , to recover the Liberty and purity , of the GOSPELL , as it was established and professed before the foresaid Novations : We aske you , what is that period of time , to which your words have reference , when you promise to labour , to recover the Puritie and Liberty of the Gospell , as it was professed & established before the foresaid novations ? If you mean that period of time , when the Service-Booke , and Book of Canons , were urged upon you ; to wit , the last year by-past in Summer , then you acknowledge , that all that time you enjoined the Purity and Liberty of the GOSPELL ; and consequently , that you yet enjoy it ; for no new thing hath since that time been publicklie received , and practised in this CHURCH . If you meane ( as undoubtedlie we thinke you doe ) the time preceeding the bringing in of Episcopacie , and the Acts of Pearth , then you comprehend both Episcopacie and the Acts of PEARTH , under these Novations ; for the removing whereof , you promise , to labour , according to your power : and consequentlie doe dis-allow and condemne them , even before they be tryed in a Free Assemblie , and before they be heard who maintain & approve them as lawfull . 3. We may evidentlie demonstrate this , argumento ad hominem , as we say in the Schooles : For those Rites and Ceremonies , which are abjured in the Negative Confession , are also abjured in your late Covenant ; which , as you say , is all one with the Negative Confession , or with the Covenant made 1581. But the Rites and Ceremonies which were concluded in Pearth Assemblie , are abjured , as you say , in the Covenant made 1581. and therefore they are also abjured in this your late Covenant . The first Proposition is evident : for in your late Covenant , speaking of the Oath contained in that olde Covenant , which was made Anno 1581. you professe , That the present and succeeding Generations in this Land , are bound to keep the foresaid Nationall Oath , as you call it , and Subscription , unviolable . The second Proposition also cannot be denyed by you : For , these twentie yeares by-bast , you have accused those who conformed themselves to the Ordinances of Pearth , of Perjurie ; and that because they had violated the Oath made Anno 1581. in the which those Articles ( as you alleadge ) were abjured . But perhaps you will say to us , that wee thinke those things not to be abjured in that Oath made Anno 1581. and therefore wee may swear , and subscrive your late Covenant ; and , not-with-standing of our Oath and Subscription , be tyed onely to the Forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles for a time . We answere , first : The words of an Oath should be cleare , and plain : or , if they be any wayes ambiguous , the true sense of them should be so declared , and manifested , that all may know it . 2. An Oath is to be given , according to the minde and judgement of him that requireth it . And therefore , seeing you who require this Oath of us , thinke the Rites or Ceremonies concluded at Pearth , to be abjured in that Oath made Anno 1581. how can we sweare and sub●rive your Covenant , which reneweth the foresaid Oath , and bindeth us to it ? 3. If we should sweare , and subscrive the Negative Confession , as it is included in your Covenant ; then ye , who thinke the Articles of Pearth to be abjured , and condemned in the Negative Confession , will thinke us tyed , by our own Personall Oath , to condemne the Articles of Pearth . 4. Seeing this Covenant was penned by you , who have hitherto not conformed your selves to Pearth Assemblie , and have opposed Episcopacy , and seeing you all condemn Episcopacy , as if it were that Popish or wicked Hierarchy , mentioned in the Negative Confessiō ; as also esteeme the thinges concluded in Pearth Assemblie , to be Idolatrous , or Superstitious , how can we thinke , that you in your solemne vow made to God , for reformation of this Church , and resisting , in times to come , the Novations & Corruptions of it , have passed by these things , which are the onely Novations already introduced by Authority , and from which , as you affirme , the Church hath so great need to be purged : chiefly , seeing ye think them as Popish Superstitious & Idolatrous , as ye doe these other Novations , which are not as yet introduced . 5. If in all your Supplications , Plaints , and Protestations , ye have onelie sought the removing and discharging of the Service Booke , Booke of Canons , and the new high Commission , not complaining of any other Novations ; and seeing his Majestie hath discharged the first two , & hath promised to rectifie the third , or last of them ; Then , what reason have ye to thinke , that his Majesty hath not satisfied your Supplications ? For , all the Novations , upon which you complained , are removed by his Majestie , and ye have his Princely Promise , that no further shall be urged upon us , but by such a faire and Legall way , as may fatisfie all his Subjects . 6. As for that which your Covenant , by your own Confession , requireth of us , to wi● , The forbearance , and abstinence , for a time , from the practising the Articles of PEARTH ; We professe sincerelie , and in the sight of GOD , that our Conscience will not suffer us , to subscrive that part of your Covenant ; and that because Lawes being standing for them , and our lawfull Superioures requyring Obedience from us , by practising them , to sweare Forbearance of the practise of them , is to sweare Disobedience , and , to wrong their Authority . 7. How can we , with a good Conscience , abstaine presenly from private Baptisme , and private Communion , being req●yred thereunto by sicke persons , and those Parents whose Children cannot be carried to the Church commodiouslie with their lives ; seeing we thinke it a thing very unlawfull , in such cases , to refuse to administrate those Sacraments in private houses . No● that we thinke , that GOD hath tyed Himself , or His Grace , to the Sacraments ; but because He hath tyed us unto them , by His Precept : and , not to use the means appoynted by GOD , when our People , or their Children stand in need of them , is a contempt of the meanes , and a tempting of GOD. The Fifth Demand . Whether or no we can sincerely , and with a good Conscience , subscrive the Negative Confession , as it is expounded and interpreted by the Contryvers or Authors of the late Covenant , seeing it maketh a perpetuall Law concerning the externall Rites of the Church , which GOD hath not made , as if these Rites were unchangeable ? And how they who both sweare the positive Confession , and the negative , thus interpreted , can eschew contradiction , seeing the positive Confession , Chap. 21. evidently declareth , that these Rites are changable , according to the exigencie of time ; and consequently , that no perpetuall Law may or ought to be made concerning them ? Likewise , we would know , how it can stand with trueth , to abjure all these Rites , as Popish ▪ which are used in the Church , without divyne institution , expressed in GOD'S Word ; seeing even these who urge the Covenant , practise some Ceremonies which are not mentioned in GOD'S Word , as the Celebration of Marriage before the Church , in the beginning , or at the end of divyne Service , with all the particulars of it , and the stipulation of Fathers and God-fathers , for the Childe in Baptisme , which are not meere circumstances , as they use to distinguish , but also Ceremonies , properlie so called ? ANSWERE . The late Covenant maketh not a perpetuall Law concerning the externall Rites of the Kirke , as if they were unchangable : but , as we have sayde before , onlie bindeth us , for a tyme , to forbeare the practise of Innovations already introduced , and doth not determine whether they ought to be changed , or not . 2. According to this true Interpretation , all appearance of contradiction betwixt the Confession of Faith insert in the Act of Parliament , and the latter Confession , is removed , beside that the Article 21 of the Confession of Faith , giveth power to the Kirke , in matters of externall Policie , and order of the Worship of GOD , is expounded in the first Booke of Discipline , distinguishing betweene thinges necessarie to be observed in every Kirke , and thinges variable in particular Congregations . 3. We declare againe , that the Covenant doeth not abjure Pearth Articles , as Popish , and thinketh not tyme now to dispute of significant Ceremonies , or other holy Rites , and whether the two particulars named be Ceremonies , or not : since the Confession condescended upon on both sides , abjureth Rites , which are added without the Word of GOD. Replye . First , we have already told you , that we can not subscrive your Oath of Forbearance of the practise of the Articles already introduced , without violation of Authority , and of wronging our own Consciences , who thinke private Baptisme and Communion , not to be indifferent , but also necessarie , in some cases , not indeed , necessitate medii , as if GOD'S Grace were tyed to the externall means , but , as we say in the Schooles , necessitate praecepti , because we are commanded to use these means . 2. This late Covenant leadeth and bindeth us to the old Covenant , made 1581 ▪ and that old Covenant bindeth us perpetually to that Discipline which was then ; that is , ( as ye alleadge ) to the whole Policie of the Church , comprehending all the externall Rites of it : and so , à primo ad ultimum , this late Covenant bindeth us to the whole Policie of the Church , which was then ; and consequentlie maketh a perpetuall Law , concerning externall Rites of the Church , as if they were unchangable , All partes of this Argument are sure : for by your late Covenant , you professe your selves bound , to keepe the foresaid Nationall Oath ( as you call it ) inviolable : and that Oath , or Covenant , bindeth us , to continue In the obedience not only of the Doctrine , but also of the Discipline of this Kirke . Where by the Discipline of the Kirke , ye understand ( as ye have in all your wrytings professed , especialie of late , in your Booke enti●uled , A dispute , against the English Popish Ceremonies . Part. 4. Cap. 8. Sect. 6. ) the whole externall Policie of the Church , as it was at that tyme ; to wit , Anno 1581. Yea , you confesse , that no other thing can be understood by The Discipline of the Kirke , but that which we have said already ; and consequently we shall be tyed by that Oath which you requyre of us , to admit and practise no other Rites and Ceremonies , but such as were then received in our Church . We can no wayes passe by this , seeing ever since the Assemblie of Pearth , in your publicke Sermons , and printed Bookes , ye have most vehemently accused us of Perjury , as violating the Oath , or Covenant , made Anno 1581. and that in respect we have admitted into the Church , some Rites , or Ceremonies , which were not in it the foresaid yeare of GOD. Is not this to make a perpetuall Law , concerning the externall Rites of the Church , as if they were unchangeable , and to abjure the practise of all Rites introduced in the Church since that time ; and consequently the practise of the Articles of Pearth , and that not for a time onelie , but for ever ? 3. Seeing the Negative Confession , according to your minde , and conception of it , maketh the whole externall Policie of the Church , as it was Anno 1581. to be unchangable and on the contrarie , the Confession insert into the Acts of Parliament , declareth , that the Rites belonging to the externall Policie of the Church , are changable ; how can you escape a Contradiction , if ye receive both these Confessions ? 4. Whereas by that distinction mentioned in your Answere , of things necessary to be observed , and of things variable in particular Congregations , ye insinuate that by the Keeping of the Discipline of the Kirke as it was then , to which we are bound in the old Covenant , ye understand the observation of those things which are necessary to be observed in every Kirke , and not of thinges variable in particular Congregations : We aske , Into which of the Members of this distinction ye referre Episcopacie and the Articles of Pearth ? that is , whether they most necessarilie be omitted in all Churches , and at all times , or not ? If ye say , that they must be necessarilie omitted , and that the Negative Confession , confirmed with an Oath , doth tye us to the omission of them ; then both ye would make us to sweare , and subscrive against our Consciences , ( for we are perswaded , that these things are lawfull ) as also ye would make us to abjure Episcopacy , and the Articles of Pearth , in perpetuum ; which is ●latlie contrary to your ▪ Declaration in your Answeres , 1. 5. &c. If you say on the other part , that we are not tyed by the negative Confession , to the omission of these things ; then , why have ye , in all your wrytings against us , exprobrate to us , Perjurie , in violating of the Oath con●ayned in the negative Confession ? 5. We would gladly have known your minde , concerning the lawfulnesse of such Rites as are nor of divyne Institution , expressed in GOD'S Word . For we ingenuously professe , that none of your Answeres ( which hitherto we have seen ) to the Instances , or Examples , brought by us , in our sift Demand , of Rites used by your selves ▪ in your Churches , as lawfull , without divyne Institution , ( to which we could adde many moe ) doe give us any satisfaction : nor yet , as we thinke , can give satisfaction to any indifferent man. As for example ; is Blessing of Marriages , a meere circumstance ? who can be so impudent , as to say ●o ? or , if it be a Ceremony , what praecept or practise have ye of it in GOD'S whole word ? If it be alleadged , that we have a warrand from that Blessing pronounced Gen. 1. 28. upon Man and Woman , after their creation ; we aske , by what consequence can that Solemnitie of blessing of Marriages used in our Churches , with all the Ceremonies of it , be drawn from that effectuall and operative Blessing of our first Parents , or rather of whole Man-kynde ? Is there here an institution of a perper●uall observance , or Rite , to be used in the Church , more then in the 22 verse of the same Chapter , when GOD blessed the Fowles , and Fishes , and said , Be fruitfull , and multiplie , and fill the waters in the Seas ? &c. If againe it be answered , that Pastorall Benediction , is mentioned in Scripture , first , what is that to Blessing of Marriages ? And secondly , why are not all other pactions , as well as Marriages , blessed in the Church , chiefly , seeing Matrimoniall Blessing hath been , & is , abused in the Romane Church , which holdeth , that Marriage is a Sacrament ; and consequently , Matrimoniall benediction ought , as it would seeme , to be secluded from the Church , rather then other Blessings ? The Sixth Demand . Whether or no it be fit to subscrive such an Interpretation , as in matters of lawfullnesse , and unlawfulnesse ; and consequently in matters of Faith , contradicteth the Judgement of so many Divines , most famous of the reformed Church , both Ancient and Modern , ( who did , and doe holde , that these Rites and Ordinances brought into this Church by the Assemblie of Pearth , are in their own nature lawfull , and such as ought not to make a stirre in the Church of GOD ) and also condemneth the venerable practise of the Ancient Church , and the most eminent Lights of it , even in those purest times , unto which we apeale against the Papists in our Disputes . ANSWERE . We trust , that no sound Divyne , Ancient or Moderne , would in this case denye the expediencie of the forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles . And further then this , nothing at this tyme is required . Replye . Your silence , in not answering that which we affirmed , concerning the judgement of Divynes , Ancient and Moderne , of the reformed Church , anent the lawfulnesse of the Rites and Ordinances , which were received in our Church , by the ordinance of the Assemblie of Pearth ; as also concerning the judgement and practise of the ancient Church ; doeth make us thinke , that ye acknowledge the trueth of that which we affirmed there . 2. We have already showne , that the Oath which ye requyre of us , importeth more then the forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles , for a tyme. 3. The forbearance of some of them , seemeth to us , to be meerly unlawfull , and contrary to that Pastorall duetie we owe to our Flocke . 4. The forbearance of any of them , considered with a relation to the Authority enjoyning them , in our judgement , is plaine disobedience . The seaventh Demand . Whether it be agreable to Charitie or Pietie , to requyre us to abjure these Rites as Popish ; which in the sinceritie of our hearts , following the light of our Conscience , ( whereof we take GOD to witnesse ) we have hitherto practised , as lawfull , and laudablie following the same light , doe yet practise them ? but suppose this might be requyred of us by any ; Quaeritur , Whether or no it becommeth them so peremptorilie , and upon such a suddentie , to urge us to this , who these by-gone twenty yeares , have desired earnestly to enjoy the freedome of their Consciences in their Ministerie , even in denying obedience to these things , and standing Lawes for them ; and when they were urged to obedience , did so often protest , and earnestly request , that they might have a tyme , to be well enformed , and maturelie advysed of the matter , which to the most part of them was most graciously granted ? Let them , therefore , looke to that naturall Maxime , Quod tibi fieri non vis , alteri ne feceris , and to our Saviour's Precept of the same sense , and almost of the same wordes , Matth. 7. verse 12. ANSWERE . We hope , that such a Forbearance of the practise , will prejudge the libertie of no mans Conscience . Replye . It would much prejudge our Consciences , to sweare and subscrive the negative Confession , taking it according to your conception and meaning , who requyre our Oath . 2. How can we sweare , to labour , ( by all means lawfull , as ye require in your Covenant ) to expell those thinges , whereof we holde some to be necessary , and all the rest , to be lawfull , and laudable ? The Eight Demand . Whether it be fitting to sweare to defend the Kings Person and Authority , with this Limitation , In the defence and preservation of the true Religion , Lawes , and Liberties , of this Kingdome ? As if their Persons ought not to be defended against all Enemies , although as yet they embraced not the Trueth : or having before embraced it , yet have fallen from it ; or as if their Royall Authority were not to be acknowledged , although commanding thinges unlawfull ; and as if we were not subject thereto , in yeelding to suffer under them , when we give not active obedience to them ? ANSWERE . 1. The Answere of the first Demand , may give satisfaction here . 2. The Specification of the defending the Kings Person and Authoritie , in the defence of the true Religion , Lawes , and Liberties of the Kingdome , is warranded by the Confession ratified in Parliament , by other Acts of Parliament , by the other Confession , and by the generall Band joyned with it . 3. No man will with-holde his Subscription from the Covenant , because it doth not , as it intendeth not , to expresse ever●● duetie we owe to the Kings Majestie , as if the not naming , were a denying of the duetie . Reply . What ye have replyed in your Answere to our first Demand , we have examined , in our Confutation of your Answere . 2. If ye consider well all the Circumstances of the making of your Covenant , ye will finde that it had not been amisse , at this time , to have expressed more fullie the Loyaltie of your Intentions , to maintaine the KINGS Person and Honour . Next , it is necessarie to expresse it yet more fully , for our cause , whom ye require , to sweare & subscrive your Covenant ; lest we doe any thing , in this matter , with a doubting Conscience , ( which is a grievous sinne ) that is , Doubting whether or no we are tyed by our Oath , to maintain the KINGS Authority , onelie in so farre , as it is imployed in the Defence of the foresaid true Religion ; or , at lest , as it is not imployed against it . For it seemeth to us unlawfull , to sweare the maintenance of the KINGS Authority with this limitation precisely . And if ye be of a contrary mynde , we are most willing to confere with you of this point . The ninth Demand . VVhethere or no we can sincerely sweare to maintaine the Authority , truelie and properlie Monarchicall of the King ; and withall sweare also disobedience to these Articles , which are authorized by his standing Lawes , and to maintaine the meanest of his Subjectes against him , in their disobedience of his Lawes , as yet standing in vigour concerning these thinges ? ANSWERE . 1. The Answere to the first Demand , is usefull here also . 2. Forbearance of Practise , for a time , in such a case , is rather Obedience , then Disobedience : for example , Kneelling was thought convenient , because all memorie of Superstition was past , should it not therefore be forborne , because Superstition is now revived , and flagrant ? They who practise , keep the letter of the Law : but they who forbeare , keep the life and reason thereof . Replye . Your Covenant requireth more of us , then the forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles , as we have often times declared . 2. We have also showne , that the forbearance of Obedience , to standing Lawes , without licience of Superiours , and contrarie to their commandement , especially if it be done by deliberation , and if men tye themselves , by an Oath , to do so , is manifest Disobedience . 3. The Article of Pearth , anent Kneeling , was not grounded onelie , nor yet principally , upon that Narrative which ye mention ; but rather upon the conveniencie and decencie of the gesture of Kneeling , in the receiving of the holie SACRAMENT : which reason doeth yet continue ; as also the other reason which ye mention , holdeth yet : for the bodie of the People of this Church , were never Papists ; and , consequently , have no memorie of Popish Superstition , as those who lived in time of Reformation . 4. We can not see , nor conceive , how a Vow and Band , of maintaining the meanest Subject of this Kingdom , against all persons whatsoever ; and consequently , against the KING himself , as we have showne in our second Replye , in disobedience of his Lawes , can consist with that love , reverence , and subjection , which we owe to our KING . Neither have ye brought any thing in your Answere , to satisfie us in this point . And because ye alleadge , as we heare , that ye are mistaken in this point , and doe vindicate your selves , by those words of the Covenant , wherein ye promise to maintain the KINGS Authority ; we pray you to expresse your minde more fully , concerning it ; and to showe us , 1. What ye meane by mantaining the KINGS Authority , in that part of your Covenant , wherein ye expresse your loyall Intention , To maintain the KINGS Person and Authority ; and in speciall , Whether or no the maintaining of the KINGS Authoritie , be taken by you , as it excludeth all resisting of his Authority , by force of Armes , even although he should command thinges unlawfull , and contrarie to the Trueth ? For so we thinke it should be taken : and that it should be so taken , we are ready to demonstrate . Neither can we sweare it in anie other sense . 2. Whether your promise , of mutuall defence , In the same cause of maintayning the true Religion , and his Majesties Authority , &c. ought to be understood , of the maintaining the Kings Authority absolu●elie : that is , Whether he maintaine the true Religion , or no ? Or , on the contrarie ; if it ought to be understood , of the maintaining the Kings Authority conditionally , in so farre as he maintaineth the true Religion , and not any other wayes ? If you say , that it is to be understoode the first way , we assent to that part of your Covenant , and have no more scruple anent it , except that one , which we mentioned in our Reply to your second Answere : to wit , that the words of your Protestation , seeme to import more ; and , that your Paction , or Covenant , is made without the Kings privitie , and consent . If ye say , that it is to be understood the second way , then we continue urging our foresaid Demand : to wit , how a man can maintaine the Kings Authority , and withall maintaine the meanest of His Subjects , in resisting His Authority ? And how we can be said , to stand for the Kings Honour , when we vowe and promise , to doe that which hee himselfe professeth to be against his Honour ; and which , in the common judgement of men , is thought to be so ? The determination of this point , is more then necessary , at this tyme : and , therefore , let us in sinceritie , and Brotherly love , conferre of it ; that the Consciences of others who doubt of this , may receive satisfaction . The Tenth Demand . Whether or no we ought to sweare to such a Covenant , which taketh away from us all hope of a free Assemblie , or Parliament , to judge of the matteres presently debated ? for how can these vote freely of any matter propounded to the decision and deliberation of the Church and Estate ; who have already sworne to adheere to one part of the Question ? and how can those who dissent from them , submit themselves to their judgement , chiefly seeing they are Possessoures , and have Lawes Civill and Ecclesiastick , standing as yet for them ? ANSWERE . We perceive , that this tenth Demand , is made of the Articles of Pearth ; therefore we answere as before ; That we promise onely forbearance , which can prejudge no mans liberty in a Generall Assembly . Replye . We have showne , that your Covenant and Oath , importeth a manifest Abjuration of the Articles of Pearth : and therefore , the swearing of it doeth manifestly prejudge the liberty of Voting in a Nationall Assembly : For , how can they freely either reason in an Assembly , concerning Episcopacy , and the Articles of Pearth ; or else , give their judgement , without prejudice , concerning them who have already promised , sworne , and vowed , first , To adheere to the Discipline of the Kirke : that is , ( according to your Interpretation ) to the whole externall policie of the Church , as it was 1581. 2. To labour , by all meanes lawfull , to remove , and expell , all those Rites , and Ordinances , which have come into the Church since the foresaid Year of GOD ; that the Church may be restored , to the Liberty , and Purity , which it then had . Whereby ye declare , that the foresaid Articles and Episcopacy , are contrary to the Liberty , and Purity , of the Church ; and consequently , ye are tyed , by your Oath , to vote against them , if ye be called to the intended ASSEMBLIE . The eleventh Demand . Whether our subscriving , together with our People , to the Confession of this Nation , which is ratified and registrated in Parliamēt , Ann. 1567. may give full satisfaction to all who doubt of the sincerity of our Profession , if so be they have no farther aime , but only to know and see our willingnesse , and constant resolution , to adheere to the Religion presently professed , and to oppose all Erroures contrary to it , to our lives end ? Now , seeing we are willing to doe this , as we take GOD to witnesse , we are , how are we hated , maligned , and traduced as Enemies of the Trueth , only because our Consciences doe not suffer us to subscrive to that Interpretation of the Negative Confession insert in the Covenant , ( concerning which we can see no warrand of the trueth of it , nor lawfull Authority binding us to it ) and to the Politicke , or rather Military part of that Covenant , which is a thing without the compasse of our Calling , and not belonging to that contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints , of which S. Iude speaketh in his Epistle . ANSWERE . Since no other meane could be found so effectuall , for holding out of Poperie , and forbearing of dangerous Novations in Religion , such as the Service Booke , and Canons , which as yet are onelie discharged , till in a faire and legall way they may be introduced ; and are by no word of the late Proclamation disallowed although the Service Book , by the Proclamation , February 19. be highlie praised , as serving to edification , and to beat out all Superstition : and nothing in this Application is abjured , but what was abjured in the former ; why shall we fobeare to use a meane so just , and so powerfull , for the preservation of the puritie of Religion ? Replye . Here ye doe not particularlie answere to our Demand , and seem unwilling to give that Testimony of us , Your Brethren , concerning our sincerity in professing of the Trueth ; which , all who know and judge unpartially of us , doe thinke to be due to us . It is sufficientlie knowne , what paines we take , in disputing and writing against Papists , in confuting their Erroures in our Pulpits , in leading processe against them , according to the Order of the Church , and in doing all thinges against Romish erroures , which can be expected from the most zealous Professoures of the trueth . If ye , or anie other of our reverend Brethren , doubt of the sincerity of our Profession , then pose us concerning any Article contraverted , and we shall be most ready to declare our minde concerning it before all men , and give a sufficient proofe to the worlde , that we have pryed as narrowlie into the misteries of Romish Erroures , for refutation of them , as any of those who impiously , and uncharitablie traduce us , as favourers of Poperie . 2. We have other means , more effectuall , and lawfull , ( whereas we thinke this your Meane to be unlawfull ) for holding out of Poperie : and in which we ought to conside more , then in all the promises and vowes of men ; yea , also , more then in all the United Forces of all the Subjects of this Land : to wit , diligent preaching , and teaching of the Word , frequent Prayer to GOD , humbling of our selvs before him , amendement of our lives , and conversations , and arming our selves against our Adversaries , by diligent searching of the Scriptures , and using all other Means , whereby we may encrease in the knowledge of the Trueth , and in ability , to defend it against the enemies of it . 3. The Subjects of this Kingdom , at least a great part of them , either by their own inclination , or by the perswasion of others , have such an hard conceit of the Service Booke , and Canons , that if his Majestie use a faire and legall way of bringing them into this Church , especially such a way , as may give satisfaction to all his Subjects , in all appearāce , we need not to fear the in bringing of them . The Twelfth Demand . Whereas we heare of diverse Disorders , and violent miscariages , of those who have subscrived the Covenant , against our Brethren of the holie Ministrie , who continue in their obedience to the Lawes of the Church and Kingdome ; which miscariages being done without all form of Justice , or legall proceeding , are an exercising of Revenge , by private Authority , and consequently are forbidden in the sixt commandement ; which is one of the reasons which moveth us , not to joyne our selves unto their societie : we would gladely therefore know of our reverend Brethren , who have come hither , to recommend the late Covenant unto us ; first , whether or no they doe allowe these disorders ? 2. If they allowe them , what reason have they so to doe ? and if they allow them not , how is it , that these Disorders and miscarriages , are not publickly by them , and other Pastors of their Confederacie , condemned , and sharplie rebuked in their Pulpits ? Why are the Actors of them not tryed , and censured ? And why doe they delay to give out some publicke Declaration , either in Print or writ , to this effect , being long since exhorted to doe so ? ANSWERE . 1. Hardlie can a zealous people assembled in a Kirke for the Worship of GOD , be kept from tumult , when Bookes , and a Worship which they either know , or conceive to be Popish , are suddenlie , and imperious●ie obtruded upon them by the Leaders : and how farre the keeping of the materiall Kirkes from the pollution of Worship , belongeth to the People , and communitie of he Faithfull , should be considered . 2. Violence done in other places , and upon other occasions , we no more allow , then we doe approve the aspersions of Perjurie , Rebellion , &c. which some men doe put upon us . Replye . It belongeth not to the People , or community of the Faithfull , to contemne Authority , and the LORDS Service , done in his owne house , on his owne Day , so farre as to put violent hands in Praelates , and Pastors , in time of Divyne Worship , while they are practising those things which are enjoined by the King , and his Counsell . Such Disorders , and contemptuous carriages , doe not beseem those whom CHRIST inviteth to come to him , and to learn of him , meeknesse , and lowlinesse of heart ; chiefly , seeing there are many other wayes , whereby People may testifie their aversation of those Bookes , and Worship , which they conceive to be Popish . If it be a sinne in Parents , to provoke their Children to wrath ; much more is it a sinne in Children , to provoke their Parents , especially Patrem Patriae , the common Father of the Countrey , so to wrath . 2. The keeping of GODS house , from the pollution of Worship , belongeth to those who are cloathed with lawfull Authority . 3. We not onely asked of you , Whether or no ye did allowe the Miscarriages towards our Brethren of the holy Ministery , mentioned in our Demand ? but also , supposing that ye doe not allowe them , we asked , How is it , that those Disorders , and Miscarriages , are not publicklie by you condemned ; and rebuked ? Why are the Actors of them not tryed , and censured ? And why doe ye not give some publick Document to the world , of your aversation of such Miscarriages ? chieflie , seeing they are , as we have showne , a manifest transgression of the sixt Commandement . We can not sufficiently marvell , that ye have keept up your myndes in this matter , and not answered to so important , and necessarie a Demand . As for your Complaint , of Perjure and Rebellion , &c. if ye mean the Warning lately written to the Subjects in Scotland , ye shall knowe , that the Author thereof himselfe is much displeased with any offensive asperitie , which hath beene found in some written Copies thereof ; and hath already done that , for removing of that offen●● : which , we hope , shall give full satisfaction to all men . The Thirteenth Demand . How can we subscrive that Covenant , without incurring many grievous Scandals ; as first , the Scandall of Dissenting from other reformed Churches , and famous Divynes , the chiefe Instruments of the Reformation of the Church in EUROPE , who did hold these Rites which are abjured in this late Covenant , as meerly unlawfull , Popish , and Idolatrous , to be in their own nature , lawfull . Secondly , the scandall of dissenting from Antiquitie , and vilipending it altogether in matters of the externall Policie of the Church ; which we know , and have found by frequent experience , to be a thing that maketh manie Papists more averse from our Profession , then otherwise they would be . Thirdly , the scandall of Perjurie , which some of us can not escape , who did sweare obedience to the Articles of Pearth , and to our ordinarie , at our Admission to the Ministrie . ANSWERE . That threefold scandall ceasseth upon the right interpretation of the clause of the forbearance of the Novations already introduced . Replye . We have shown your interpretatiō of the clause of forbearance , not to be right , and have refuted it , we thinke , by the very wordes of your Covenant ; so that none of these three scandalls can be eschewed by us , if we subscrive to your foresaid Covenant . 2. Suppose the other two might be eschewed , by that interpretation of the clause of forbearance , yet the third can not be eschewed , seeing at our Admission we have sworne obedience to the Articles of Pearth , and to our Ordinarie : Wherefore , ye must either prove the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , to be unlawfull , or else , we can not , without violation of our Oath , made at our Admission , forebeare the practise of the foresaid Articles , against the will of our Ordinarie , and other our lawfull Superioures . The Fourteenth Demand . Last of all ; We pray these Reverend and Worthy Brethren , to consider impartially , and charitably , seeing we have all these scruples in our minds concerning their Covenant , as also seeing we are yet most confident , and assured , of the lawfulnesse of the Articles of Pearth , together with the lawfulnesse and venerable Antiquitie of Episcopall Government , how we can , with a safe Conscience , give our consent that they should preach in our Pulpits , who come professedly to withdraw our People from that which we in the inmost thoughts of our soules doe embrace as lawfull ; and from that obedience which they doe owe to their Gracious and Pious Soveraigne therein ; Whos 's last Proclamation hath given full satisfaction to us all , and much rejoiced our hearts , in respect he hath therein most solemnly , and by his Oath declared , not onely his sincerity in professing the Trueth , but also his pious Resolution , to continue therein , and maintaine it constantly to his lives end , most graciously and wiselie removing these things which have occasioned the late perturbation of our Church . We wish them likewise , to consider , how they can requyre this of us , seeing they would not ( we appeale their own Consciences ) be content that they should be so dealt with themselves ; we meane , that any should goe up to their Pulpits , and condemne their Doctrine , and practise , and with-draw their People from that which hath been before recommended unto them as Trueth . We conclude : Exhorting earnestlie , entreating lovingly , and charging modestly , these , and all others , our Reverend Brethren , before GOD , and the LORD JESUS CHRIST , who shall judge the quicke and the dead at his appearing in his Kingdom , if there be any consolation in CHRIST , if any comfort of love , if any fellowship of the Spirit , if any bowells of mercies , to looke narrowlie to their own Consciences , in these weighty matters ; remembring that of JEREMIAH , The heart is deceitfull above all things , and desperatly wicked , who can know it : To judge charitably of us their Brethren ; remembering that of our Saviour , Iudge not , that ye be not judged : To deale with us in love and meeknesse , ( if so be they thinke us to have gone astray from the Trueth ; which , GOD knoweth , we no wayes doe perceive ) remembering that of S. PAUL , If a man be overtaken in a fault , ye that are spiritual , restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse : as also that of S. JAMES , The wisdome that is from Above , is first pure , then peaceable , gentle , and easie to be entreated ; full of mercy , and good fruits , &c. And last of all , To seek Peace , and so to follow after it ; that this our deare native Countrey be not exposed to a dangerous Warrefare , and to all the wofull Consequents thereof ; of which our hearts can not thinke , without trembling and horrour . ANSWERE . 1. Nothing in the Interpretation of the Covenant , against the lawfulnesse of Pearth Articles , and of Episcopall Government . 2. We never intended to draw the meanest of the Subjects , from that Loyalty of Obedience , which they owe to their Soveraigne , and ours . 3. The Counsell hath rescinded the Approbation of that Proclamation . 4. His Majesties Religious and Righteous Disposition , hath been to us a Ground , and chiefe Argument , of our hope of the hearing of all our Petitions . 5. We have no desire to wrong our Reverend and worthie Brethren ; but rather to passe , in silence , the wrongs which we have sustained by them : and would approve our selves unto our GOD , and prove faithful in the imployments put upon us : earnestly desiring , that every eye may perceive the wonderfull worke of GOD in this Land : lest any of us be found fighting against GOD ; and , that all of us may joine Heart and Hand , for the Purity and Peace of the Kirke of ou● LORD IESUS CHRIST , Blessed for ever . JULIE 21. 1638. Mr. ALEXANDER HENDERSON , Minister at Leuehars . Mr. DAVID DICKSON , Minister at Irwing . Mr. ANDREW CANT , Minister at Petslig● . Replye . There is too much , as we thinke , in your Covenant , against the lawfullnesse of Pearth Articles . 2. Your Band of Mutuall Defence , against all persons whatsoever , may draw Subjects , perhaps , to take Armes against their King , ( which GOD avert ) and consequently from that Loyalty of Obedience , which they owe to their Soveraigne , and ours ; except ye declare , & explaine your selves better , then ye have hither-to done . 3. What the most honourable Lords of His Majesties Privy Counsell , have done concerning the Kings Majesties last Proclamation , is not sufficiently known to us , and farre lesse upon what Grounds and Motives they have ( as you say ) rescinded their Approbation of the late Proclamation . 4. His Majesties Religious and Righteous Disposition , hath been to us , and is , a maine ground wherefore we rest and relye upon his gracious Proclamation , perswading our selves , that he intendeth not , nor never intended , any Innovation in Religion . 5. We shall labour , by all meanes , to eschew every thing , which in the least degree may wrong you , our Reverend and worthy Brethren . As for the Wrongs already done by us to you , ( as yee pretend ) when-so-ever it shall please you to specifie them , we hope to give you full satisfaction , and to cleare our selves of that Imputation . 6. The worke of GOD towards any Nation , how strange and wonderfull so-ever it seem to be , is never contrary to his Word : and , therefore , we feare not to be found fighting against GODS Worke , so long as we fight not against his Trueth , revealed in his Word . That all-seeing LORD knoweth , that we mentaine his Trueth according to the light of our Consciences , and are ready to joyne Heart and Hand with you , for the Purity and Peace of this Church , in every lawfull way , & course , as sincere lovers of Trueth and Peace . And now , Brethren , before we conclude , againe we entreat you , and all others our deare Countrey-men , especially our reverend Bretheren of the holy Ministrie , to judge charitablie of us , and of our proceedings at this time ; and in particular , of these our Demandes , and Replyes ; which , GOD is our witnesse , neither hatred of any mans person , nor love of Contention , nor any worldly respect ; but only the Conscience of our Calling hath drawn from us . And as for our Arguments for not Subscriving , which are taken from our due subjection and obedience to our Soveraigne , and his Lawes , we protest , and declare , that they ought not to be so interpreted , as if we intended to accuse you , or others , our dear Countrey-men , of Disloyaltie towards our most Gracious KING ; or , as if our purpose were to lay any such Imputation upon you : for they are only used by us , to show what the wordes of the Covenant seem to us to import , and how we conceive of them ; as also , what maketh us so to conceive of them . We doubt not , reverend Brethren , but ye know , that as we owe to you , and to your Proceedings , the favourable judgment of Charitie ; so we ought to judge of those thinges , which we are to sweare , and subscrive , with the strict and inquisitive judgement of Veritie ; and consequently , we ought to ponder duely , and to propound particularly and fully to others , ( especially to those who requyre our Oath and Subscription , and undertake to satisfie our Consciences there-anent ) all the doubts and reasons which make us unwilling or afrayde to give our Subscription thereunto , IOHN FORBES OF CORSE , Doctor and Professor of Divinitie in ABERDENE . ALEXANDER SCROGIE , Minister at Old ABERDENE , D. D. WILLIAM LESLIE , D. D. and Principall of the KINGS Colledge , in Old ABERDENE . ROBERT BARON , Doctor , and Professor of Divinitie , and Minister at ABERDENE . IAMES SIBBALD , Doctor of Divinitie , and Minister at ABERDENE . ALEXANDER ROSS , Doctor of Divinitie , and Minister at ABERDENE . THE ANSVVERES OF SOME BRETHREN OF THE MINISTERIE , TO THE REPLYES Of the Ministers and Professoures of DIVINITY in ABERDENE ; CONCERNING THE LATE COVENANT 2. CHRON. 15. 15. And all Juda rejoyced at the Oath : For they had sworne with all their heart , and sought Him with their whole desire : and He was found of them . To the Christian READER . THat you may know our Proceedings , how we are brought upon the Stage , and contrary to our expectation , are put in Print . Comming to ABERDENE , on Fryday , the after-noon , we received the Demands of our reverend Brethren , that night late ; and , for the greater expedition ; without delay , we returned our summarie Answeres on Saturnday at night . On the LORDS Day following , we desired to expresse our selves to the People in presence of the Ministerie , but the Pulpits and Kirks were altogether refused ; and therefore in the most convenient place we could have , sub dio , and at such houres as were vacant from the ordinary exercises of publicke Worship , we delivered our Message in the audience of many . After our last Sermon , towards Evening , we found that our labour was not in vain in the LORD : for dyverse persones , of speciall note , both for place and wisdome , with willing heart , and great readinesse of minde , did publicklie put their hands to the Covenant . Having the weeke following seene some parts of the Countrey , [ where besides the Presbyteries Alforde and Deere , who had subscrived before , the Moderator , and dyverse of the Presbyterie of ABERDENE , the Presbyterie and People of Turreff , after they were satisfied in some scruples , did also subscrive ] we returned the next Saturnday to ABERDENE : where finding that some others had subscrived that weeke , we resolved to preach upon the morne . That night we received a Replye , unto which before our returne home , we have made an Answere . All these we desire may be unpartially considered : & if it shall please the LORD , that any light shall come from our Labour unto thy Minde , let it bee as●ryved not unto us , ( who neither had time nor helps for such a taske ) but to the brightnesse of the Trueth , and Cause it selfe , and to the Father of Lights : to whome be all Glorie . To our Reverend Brethren , The Doctors and Ministers of Aberdene . THat our Answeres ( reverend and beloved Brethren ) have not given you full satisfaction , as it may be imputed to our weaknesse , in the defence of so good a cause , so it may proceed also from your own prejudice against what could be said by us which we have some reason to suspect for two causes , one is , that your Demands which we conceived to have been intended meerly for us , and were sent unto us from you in write , were published before our comming , in Print , like as ye have now printed and published your Replies before ye had seen our Answeres unto that which we received from you last in write ; we having promised to the bearer , to returne an Answere shortly ere we departed the Countrey . This may seem rather to be a seeking of victory from prejudice , then a search of veritie for satisfaction . The other cause of our suspicion , is , that the groundes of our Answeres to you , have proven satisfactorie to others , who for Age and gifts of Learning and Understanding , are pryme men in this Kirke and Kingdome , and to whom modestly will not suffer you to preferre your selves . But whether our weaknesse or your prejudice be the cause , must be now judged by others , to whose view ye have brought us : whom therefore we with you heartilie desire unpartially to consider our first and second Answeres ; wishing and hoping that partiality , prejudice , and all worldly respects and feares , laide aside , the naked Trueth shall be seen of all her lovers . Concerning your confidence of us , as we in love judge , that ye thinke not your selves ●o be stryving against the Trueth ; so may ye conceive , that we can no more bee brought to your mynde , then wee can bee drawne from the profession of our Religion , as it hath been reformed , sworne , and confirmed by the late and preceeding Covenants , and from following the example of our religious Reformers , and the manie Worthies succeeding them in this Kirke , who would have been glad to have seen the dayes which we now doe see : and for which we pray , that both yee and wee may be thankefull ▪ so shall it not be imputed unto us , that we have not discerned and used the day of the LORDS visitation : so shall we all rejoice together in the Day of the LORD . To the First Replye . YOur experience in your Disputes against the common Adversary , wherein ye say ye are so frequent , hath ( no doubt ) taught you , how easie a matter it is to multiply Objections against the Trueth , and Cause of GOD : and your selves knowe , that your Objection against our Calling , and the Warrand of our comming to you , was framed , and published in Print , before it was propounded unto us , and ere our Answere could be had ; but so soone as we did heare your Demands , we answered incontinent , in the humilitie and trueth of our mindes , that we were to obtrude nothing upon you , or your flock , by any particular Authority , Civill or Ecclesiasticke ; but that we did come , in all meeknesse , to represent unto you the present case of this Kirke , and in love to intreat you , to joine with us , for the peace thereof ; for which we trust , without wronging any lawfull Authority , we may claim the warrand of the highest and greatest Authority , although we had not been sent from almost the whole Kirke and Kingdom , lawfully conveened at this time , for the preservation of Religion , and of the Liberties and Lawes of this Kingdom , so sore shaken , by the usurpation of the Prelates , and their Favourers . Let us consider one another , to provoke unto love , and to good works , &c. sayeth the Apostle , Hebr. 10. 24. And where ye object , that without your leave we preached within your congregation ; which is aggravated by you , as a heinous fault , both against Scripture , and against the Canons of ancient Counsels , which ye have laboriously quoted against us ; we intreat you , to be more sparing , lest the guiltinesse , if there be any , reflex upon your selves : For your Pulpits and Kirks being denyed us ( not from any injurie done by us , but by your own determination , before our comming ) a necessity was laid upon us , to deliver our message in such places , as your courtesie did permit ; wherein no man will find , that we have failed , if he consider , first , That there is as wyde difference betwixt Ecclesia turbata & pa●ata , the troubled and peaceable estate of a Kirk , as is betwixt Ecclesia constituenda , & constituta , and many things are necessary in the one , which perhaps are not expedient in the other . Ye speake of the Constitution of the Kirke this yeare , as if ye had beene speaking thereof many yeares before this time . 2. That the Word of GOD , and the Canons of Counsels , will have Pastors so to care for their owne flockes , that they forbid them not , to care for the whole Kirke , especially in the time of a common Combustion . When the house is on fire , every man ought to runne to all rowms , where hee may quench it : when a laik stricketh up in a Ship , every Mariner , yea , every Passenger , ought to labour to stop it . Even he who is not universall Pastor of the Kirke , is Pastor of the universall Kirke : & the Apostle hath taught us , That we are members one of another , Rom. 12. 4. As all the members of one bodie being many , are one body ; so also is CHRIST , 1 Cor. 12. 12. That the members should have the same care , one for another , vers . 25. If some members of this Kirk had not cared more kindly , in this time of cōmon danger , then other some have done , the whole body had been ere now dangerously , if not desparatly diseased . 3. That we made choise of such houres , for delivering our Message , that the people might attend your ordinary times of publick worship ; which maketh your charge , of the peoples contempt , or ours , of your Ministery , to be most unjust . In the second part of your Replye to our Answere to your first Demand , ye might have made choise of words witnessing more respect to the most part of the Kingdom now , ' and to the Kirke in former times , then of a Confederation , and negative Confession : we know no other Confederation at this time , but this same Laudable Covenant , which our Progenitors , and many yet living , made with GOD , and amongst themselves , at the Commandement of Authority , and according to the example of the people of GOD in former times . Neither is that short Confession meerly Negative , since the beginning thereof is affirmative , and doeth virtually containe the first large Confession ratisied in Parliament , 1567. 2. No Pastors , in our knowledge , have either been forced to flee to foraigne countreys , or have been threatned with the want of their Stipends , for the refusing their Subscription : but this we have heard , that some of them have of their owne accord , gone to Court , for procuring of protections against their Creditors , and against the Lawes , and duety of good Subjects , have made lies between the KING and his People . Others we know have wilfully refused , to abide with their flock ; and being earnestly intreated by them , to attend their Charge , have left them , and have gone out of the Countrey , for no reason , but because the people had subscrived ; and , as ye knowe , that Arguments have been taken from augmentation of Stipends , to hinder Subscription : so ye may knowe , That fear of worldly losse , rather hindereth men to subscrive , then scruple of Conscience . The Prelates flight , seemeth rather to have proceeded from inward furies of accusing Consciences , or for fear of a storme , ( which being procured by their owne doing , may be easily prognosticated by them ) then from the inforcing of subscription of the Covenant , which in our knowledge was never required of any of the Prelates , although they be grossly guilty of the breach of the Covenant , which they did sweare & subscrive before . 3. Your help , by your prayers , and other means , for extinguishing of the present Combustion , we still desire , but with all intreat , that you would both joyn with the rest of the Kirkes of the Kingdome , in publicke humiliation and fasting , which the LORD himselfe doeth proclaime and call for at this time ; so should your prayers be the more effectuall , and also ye be good instruments , according to your power , with your own people , and the countrey about , to joine in the Covenant , so should ye finde the worke of Pacification the more easie . 4. The reasons which we touched in our Answere , for proving , that ye might , without just offence to any , joine with us , in subsc●iving , are not yet answered : for , first , a sound interpretation of the Covenant , although proceeding from a private person , and altogether voide of externall Authority , can not make a substantiall difference : and if the interpretation be unsound , although it were confirmed by Authority , it maketh not a substantiall coincidence . 2. Why is it denyed , that the former Covenant containeth mutuall defence , since all are obliedged thereby to de●end Religion , according to their vocation and power , and the KINGS person and Authority , which can not possiblie be done , without mutuall defence : and since that clause of the Covenant , is so expounded , and applied upon grounds of perpetual reason , in the general Band drawn up , & Printed by Authority , An. 1590. 3. Ye must either prove this Covenant to be substantially different from the former , which is impossible , or ye must acknowledge this to have the same Authority with the former , since we are really obliedged in the former Covenant , and virtually the same warrand of KING , Counsell , and assemblie , remaineth , and was never yet discharged : by vertue whereof the Covenant might have beene renewed yearly , by all the subjects of the Kingdome , no lesse then it hath beene subscrived yearly by such as passe degrees in Colledges , and such as were suspect of Papistrie , from time to time . 4. What was done by his Majesties Commissioner , was no● done in a corner , that it needeth to be pryed into , or doubted of , and what was allowed by his Grace , who had so great power from his Majesty , to declare his Majesties will , and to receive Declarations from his subjects , and who was in every poynt so zealous and tender of his Majesties service and honour : who are ye , that it should be dissallowed by you ? Ye will have the Kingdome guilty of combination against Authority , and will not have the KING to be satisfied , when they have declared themselves to the contrary , and their Declaration is accepted by his Majesties Commissioner . This manner of dealing , is more sutable to Papists , and such Incendaries , then for you , who desire to prove good Patriots , in using all means of Pacification . 5. We are sory , that ye should be the first , who have accounted our Covenant to be a confederacie against the Trueth , since some of your selves , and all every where have been constrained , to acknowledge , that they aime ●t the same end with us , to maintaine the Trueth . And for that which displeaseth you in our way , that we deale after such a manner with people , to come in , we answere , that we have seen in this Land , the Day of the LORDS Power , wherein his people have most willingly offered themselves in multitudes , like the dew of the morning : that others of no small Note , have offered their subscriptions , and have been refused , till tyme should try , that they joine in sincerity , from love to the cause , and not from the feare of men : and that no threatnings have been used , except of the deserved judgement of GOD ; nor force , except the force of reason , from the high respects which we owe to Religion , to our KING , to our native Countrey , to our selves , and to the Posterity ; which hath been to some a greater constraint , then any externall violence ; and we wish , may prevaile also with you . To the Second . VVEE perceive , that ye passe in silence , that which we answered concerning the preventing of trouble , which by all appearance had been too sensible to many before this time , if the Conventions censured by you , had not been kept ; we desire , that ye would here declare your selves , whether ye would have rather received the Service Booke , Booke of Canons , and other trash of that kind , tending to the subversion of Religion , and to the prejudice of the Liberties of the Kingdom , then to have conveened in a peaceable manner , to present Supplications to his Majestie , for averting of so great evils . Neither doe ye speak a word of the saying of K. Iames , which ought to be regarded , both for the witnesse sake , who is of so great authority , and for the testimony which containeth so great reason . For , shall not the whole body of a Kingdom stirre pro aris & focis ? or shall our Religion be ruined , and our Light be put out , and all men holde their peace ? We told you also , that the first part of the Act of Parliament , 1585 , is relative to another Act in Queen Maries time , which specifieth , what sort of Leagues and Bands are forbidden , and setteth us free from the breach of the Act : but yee have answered nothing to this , and still dispute from the Act of Parliament , rather then from other grounds , better beseeming your Profession , and ours ; and in this will so precisely adhere to the letter of the Law , that you will have no meetings , without the KINGS consent , even in the case of the preservation of Religion , of his Majesties Authority , and of the liberties of the Kingdome , which we are sure must be contrary to the reason and life of the Law ; since the safetie of the People is , the Soveraigne Law. Although it be true also that for our Covenant , we have the consent of Authority pressing upon all the subjects in the generall Band , and confession of Faith , formerly subscrived for maintenance of the Religion , their subscription and Oath as a note of their soundnesse in Religion , and of their loyaltie and fidelitie to the KING , and his Crown , wherein Iurisconsults , more skilled in this kinde , then we need to be , have given their Responses and Verdicts , in favours of us , and of our cause . 2. The poynt touching Authority , is so full of Thornes and Rockes , useth to be so vehemently urged , to procure envye against the Gospell of CHRIST , and can so hardly be disputed and discussed , except in a large Treatise , to the satisfaction of Kings and Kingdomes ; and all having interest , that for the present we only wish you to heare the testimonies of two grave Divynes , the one is Whittaker , in his Answere to Master Reynolds preface , pag. 6. Stirres and Tumults for matter of Religion , Reynold rehearseth , that hath been in Germanie , France , Bohemia , as though it were sufficient for their condemnation , that they once resisted , and did not by and by admit whatsover violence was offered , either to GODS Trueth , or to themselves , contrary to Promise , to Oath , to publicke Edicts , to Law , whereby they were warranded to doe as they did : more of this matter , will I not answere , being of another nature , and cleared long since from the cryme of Rebellion , not only by just defence of their doeing , but also by the Proclamations and Edicts of Princes themselves . The other is Bilson , in his Booke of Christian subjecton , in defence of the Protestants in other Countreys , against the objection of the Iesuit , Pag. 332. affirming , that subjects may defend their ancient and Christian liberties covenanted and agreed upon by those Princes to whom they first submitted themselves , and were ever since confirmed and allowed by the Kings that have succeeded , they may requyre their own right , save their own lives , beseech , that they be not used as slaves , but like subjects ; like men , not like beasts ; that they may be convented by Lawes , before judges ; not murdered in corners , by Inqusitors . This is also the judgement of Rivetus in his Commentarie , Psal. 68. which being looked upon by you , will furnish a full answere to what ye have cited at length from his Iesuita Vapulans . For betwixt Jesuiticall treasonable and pernitious doctrine , and practises against Princes and Magistrats , refuted by him , and the loyall and sound doctrine of Protestants , your selves know the difference and opposition , like as it is cleare as the Sunne , by that short Confession , by the Application thereof , to the times in this present Confession , by our publicke Protestation , and by the Declaration exhibited to his Majesties Commissioner , that we meane not only mutuall concurrence , and asistance in the cause of Religion , but also to the uttermost of our power , to defend the KINGS Majestie his Person and Authority . We would be glade , that ye and others were witnesses to our private Prayers , and the most secret of our thoughts and affections , concerning our loyaltie to our dread Soveraigne ; so should ye either cease to write in this sort against us , or be forced to write against your own Consciences . 3. When we justifie our Conventions and Covenants , from their purposed ends , we meane not only the last and most remote ends , but the nearest and immediate , and if nothing in these can merite just censure , the Conventions and Covenants no more in that which ye call the Object , nor in their ends , can be culpable : what Aspersions have been put upon our Reformation , and Reformers , by the malice of our Adversaries , can not be unknown to you . But we wish , that your engynes and penns may be better imployed , then to joine with them in so bad a cause , which we expect also from your prudence , considering the people and place where ye live . To the Third . YEE doe well and wisely , that ye search not curiously into the myndes of Princes , and Reasons of State : but whether all his Majesties subjects be satisfied with the last Proclamation , needeth , no deep search . For although possiblie some had been more pleased with a Proclamation , commanding the Service Booke , such especially who neither will see no errours in it , or have publickly professed , that they have been groaning for it , yet the Protestation of the Supplicants against it , as it giveth most humble and hearty thanks to His gracious Majestie , for what is granted ; so it testifieth upon undenyable evidences , that the Proclamation is not a satisfaction of our just desires : for , first , the Proclamation supposeth the Service Booke to be no Innovation of Religion . 2. That it is not contrary to the Protestant Religion . 3. That the Proclamation giveth not order for discharging all the Acts made in favours of the Service Booke , especially that of the 19 of February , which giveth unto it so high Approbation , as serving for mantaining the true Religion , and to beat out all Superstition , and no wayes to be contrary to the Lawes of this Kingdom ; but to be compyled and approved for the universall use and edification of all His Majesties Subjects . 4. It is so farre from disallowing the said Booke , that it putteth us in feare , that it shall be prest in a faire and legal way , and therefore , notwithstanding the Proclamation , the necessity of Covenanting , which containeth nothing contrary to the Acts of Parliament , nor to the duety of good Subjects ▪ but is the largest Testimony of our Fidelity to GOD , and loyaltie to our KING , ( whatsoever it may seem to you to import ) doeth yet continue , that His Majestie may be pleased , to grant the full satisfaction of our reasonable Petitions , and that our Religion , and Liberties , may be preserved for afterwards . Whosoever professe themselves , to be perfectly satisfied with the Proclamation , doe proclaim in the ears of all the Kingdom , that they are better pleased with the Service Booke and Canons , then with the Religion , as it hath beene professed in this Land since the Reformation . To the Fourth . VVEE were assured , that your Demand proceeded from a Mistaking , and therefore , according to our knowledge , did ingenuously , for your satisfaction , expound unto you the minde of the Subscrivers ; but finde now , that we have laboured in vain , at your hands , from which we have received this Reply ; unto which , concerning the first Miss-interpretation , we answere : 1. That although we doe neither use threatnings , nor obtrude our Interpretation upon you , as bearing any obligatory Power , yet pardon us , that we march you not , and put you not in the Ballance with the greatest part of the Kingdom , both Ministers , and others , in whose name we recommend this Interpretation unto you , by all faire Means , and force of Reason : and in so doing , wee are so farre from the breach of our Solemne Vow , and Promise , that we esteeme this to be no small proofe of that godlinesse , and righteousnesse , wherein we are bound , by our Covenant , to walke . 2. The autori●ative judgement of our Reformers , and Predicessors , is evidenced , not onely by the Confession of Faith , ratified in Parliament , but also by the Books of Discipline , Acts of Generall Assemblies , and their own Writs ; wherein , if ye will , ye may find warr●nd for this Interpretation ; and in respect whereof , it is publick ratione medii , besides those midses of Scripture , of Antiquity , and of the Consent of the Reformed Kirks , which are named for midses by you . Concerning the 2 Missconstruction , it is no marvell that Prejudices , and Preconceived Opinions , possessing the minde , make men to fall upon Interpretations of their own ; but in the South parts of the Kingdom , where many learned and judicious men , both Pastors , and Professors , were assembled , at the first subscriving thereof , we remember of none that did fall into that Misstake . And the two sorts of Novations , such as are already introduced , and such as are supplicated against , are so punctually distinguished , that there is no place left to Ambiguitie : but on the contrary , the Novations which we promise to forbeare for a time onely , cannot be supposed in the following words , to be abjured for ever , as Popish Novations . 2. Upon a new examination of the words , ye perceive , that the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , are condemned as erronious Corruptions , because we promise , to labour , to recover the former purity & libertie of the Gospell : unto which our Answere is , that it appeareth , that you will have all the Covenanters against their intention , and whether they will or not , to disallow , and condemn , the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopall Government , lest they be tryed in a Generall Assembly : but it is knowne to many hundreds , that the words were purposelie conceived , for satisfaction of such as were of your judgement , that we might all joine in one heart , and Covenant , for establishing Religion , and opposing Erroures . And for your Argument , whether the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , be against the purity and liberty of the Gospel , or not , which is not determined by these words of the Covenant : but it cannot be denyed , first , That if in a Free Assembly , they be found to be against the purity and liberty of the Gospell , they ought to be abolished : in the meane time , it being left free , by the words of the Covenant , to all , who will , to stand to the defence of their lawfulnesse . Secondly , how can it be denied , that many corruptions , contrary to the purity and liberty of the Gospell , were they never so innocent in themselves , have accompanyed these Novations , such as the superstious observation of Daies , feriation and cessation from worke , on those dayes , Feasting , Guysing , &c. many grosse abusses have entered in the Sacrament , upon Kneeling before the Elements , and upon the lawlesse usurpation of Prelates : in respect whereof , even they who allow of Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , may swear to recover the purity of the Gospell . And thirdly , who can be so great a stranger at home , as to deny , that many corruptions of Popery , and Arminianism , have entred in , in the Kirke , and have been vented , and defended , in schooles , and Pulpits ; by reason whereof , we are bound , every one of us , according to the measure of our light , to labour for recovery of our former Purity ? And therefore , if you had cast your eyes upon the condition of this poore Kirke , as ye have pryed narrowly , into the expressions of the Covenant , ye might have spared both your owne labour , and ours , and not laboured to skarre both your selves and others , with this shadow . In your Argument , ad hominem , you should have considered , that whatsoever be our judgement , as we are particular persons , yet , at this time , we were to be taken , as Commissioners , from the whole company of Subscrivers , who , about this point , are of different judgements : and if some of your own judgement , had either come alone in our place , or had been joined in Commission with us , we had anticipate your Objection : and this ye have been forced to see ; and so your selves , in propounding your Objection , have answered your own Syllogisme , in making us to say , that ye may sweare and subscrive seeing ye thinke not these things to be abjured in that Oath made Anno 1581 : neither was it for you , to inquire in our private Opinion , nor necessary for us , to make it knowne , but to have conceived of our minds , according to our Commission , and the will of those who sent us . Your Arguments need to be no impediments unto your swearing of the Covenant . For upon your grounds , ye would not have sworne the short Confession , any time bypast : yea , ye can not sweare the Confession of any Kirke ; nay , not the Articles of the Creed , because of the diverse Interpretations of the Article of Christs descent into Hell ; or swearing them in Scotland and England , ye behoved to sweare them in diverse senses . There be some words of the Lords Prayer , as Give us this day our daily bread ; and of the ten Commands , as the words of the fourth Command , which are diversly understood ; must Christians , therefore , forbeare to joine in saying the Prayer , or swearing Obedience to the Commandements ? Neither for this doe we admit any Ambiguity , or Equivocation : the words certainly have but one true sense , and signification , but diverse persons conceive and understand them , according to the different measures of their light . Since then your Disputation is builded upon such a Supposition , it must either fall to the ground , or hardly can any Confession of Faith , or religious Covenant , be sworne . Offend not , therefore , if we in modesty , present unto you , a dish of your owne dressing ; we meane , the like Argument , ad hominem . The Rites and Ceremonies , which are not abjured in the negative Confession , are not abjured in this late Covenant . But the Rites and Ceremonies , which were concluded in Pearth Assembly , are not abjured , as ye say , in the negative Confession , made Anno 1581 : therefore , they are not abjured in this late Covenant . The first Proposition is evident , because in the late Covenant we are bound no furder , concerning the negative Confession , but to keep it inviolable : and therefore , what Rites are not abjured there , are not abjured here . The second Proposition cannot be denyed by you ; for these twenty years by-gone ye hav● thouhgt your selves free of Perjury , notwithstanding of the Oath in 1581 , and of your conforming your selves , to the Ordinances of Pearth . And whereas ye alleadge , afterward , as before , that our Supplications are satisfied , the contrary is knowne , by our publicke Protestation , and by our last Supplication , and Complaint , presented to his Majesties Commissioner . And urging of the Service Booke , was a sufficient reason , for forbearance of Pearth Articles , till an Assembly ; at which time it may be determined , whether it be expedient , that this Kirke be any more troubled with them . Neither needeth your Conscience to hinder you to subscrive the forbearance of these Novations , as if swearing of forbearance , were a swearing disobedience to Authority : first , Because the swearing of forbearance of a thing in your opinion , indifferent , in the case of Scandall , and of sensible feare in others , of Superstition , is the swearing of Obedience the Commandement of GOD , which forbiddeth us , to destroy him , for whom Christ died , although man should cōmand the contrary . 2. Because the Articles of Pearth were concluded , for satisfying the KING , and not to presse any man with the practise of them , as was openly professed unto the Opponents , before the face of the whole Assembly : and because the Act it selfe giveth warrand , to forbeare the practise at this time , when the memory of superstition is revived which maketh us to thinke , that they who have forborne the practise of these Articles , since the superstitious service Booke was complained upon , make most truelie conscience of obedience of the Act of Pearth , and Parliament , ratifying the same , and are most conforme unto the Confession of Faith , ratified in Parliament , declaring , that Ceremonies ought to be changed , when they rather foster superstition , then edifie the Kirke , using the same . Last of all ; Ye say , ye can not sweare forbearance , because ye can not abstaine from private Baptisme , and private Communion ; where we perceive , that in your judgement , private Baptisme and Communion , are not any more things indifferent , but necessary , necessitate praecepti , in so farre , that the not using of them , is a contempt of the means , and a tempting of GOD. By this your Doctrine , first , The state of the Question , anent Pearth Arricles , is quite altered ▪ for ye , and your Associates , did ever , to this time , alleadge the Question , to be of thinges indifferent : but now ye finde some of them so necessary , that altho the generall Assembly of the Kirk , should discharge them , yet ye behoved still , for conscience of the Commandement of GOD , to practise them . If ye have the same judgement of kneeling before the Elements , and of festivall dayes , it commeth to passe amongst us , which hath been incident to the Kirke , informer Ages , that thinges have been first brought in , as indifferent , then urged as necessary . If confirmation also in your judgement , be not indifferent , but necessary , we desire to understand , with what conscience it hath beene slighted , and utterly neglected by the Prelates , these 20 yeares past ? and how it is , that ye have carried so small regard to the Canon of the Kirke , and Act of Parliament , and to the benefite of young Children , as not to requyre , urge , and presse the practise thereof , both in your own charge , and throughout the whole Kirke ? This would seem to be partiall dealing , to presse some Ceremonies , and neglect other some ; while both by the same Canon of the Kirke , and Act of Parliament , are appointed . 2. Ye doe hereby condemne the practise of the Kirke of Scotland , from the time of Reformation , till Pearth Assemblie , and put no small guiltinesse upon other reformed Kirkes , who use not that at all , but rather abstaine from it , as dangerous , which ye now doe professe , to be so necessary . 3. We wish you wisely to consider , whence it is , and what can be the true cause , that ye living in that part of the Kingdome , should be more pressed by the people , with the practise of private Baptisme , and Communion , then all the Kirkes in the Kingdome beside , where these twenty yeares past , rarely any such motion hath been made : is it not because that Popery prevaileth there , and the people have a superstitious conceat of Baptisme and Communion , as absolutely necessary to Salvation ; as if GOD had tyed his grace to the Sacraments ; and children dying without Baptisme , and others without their last Viaticum , did perish ? Thus ye minister the Sacraments in private , as necessary , Necessitate praecepti ; and the people seeme to desire , and receive them , as necessary , Necessitate medii : an Evill very curable , in that citie where the Assemblies of the people , for publicke worship , are frequent , wherein the Sacraments might be ministred frequently enough , with great solemnity , and edification , 4. And though we doe not deny , but Baptisme privatlie ministred , by the Minister of CHRIST , according to the Institution , be true Baptisme , and , that a childe thus privately baptized , be not to be baptized againe , ( although it be true also , that private Baptisme maketh way to this Errour of Re-baptizing : ) yet we hold , that the necessitie of the Commandement , standeth only for Baptisme in publick , since no precept requyreth Baptisme , but when the ministration thereof can be had orderly , with all the circumstances requisite ; whereof this is one , that it be ministred in the presence of that visible kirke , whereof the children are to be members : for not only the minister of Baptisme , and the parents of the children , but the Congregation also hath interest in the baptisme of every member that entereth in their communion : which therefore , ought to be a publick action , no lesse then the cutting off of a rotten member , by Excommunication , ought to be done publickly . 5. It is known , that private Baptisme hath bred , and fostred the opinion of absolute necessitie of Baptisme , of Baptisme by Women , and private persons , of Baptisme by supposition , &c. and , that the ministration of the Sacraments , in private places , hath been , and is , the ready way to bring people to the contempt and neglect of the Sacraments in publicke , and to the prophanation thereof in private . 6. When all the forms of ministration of Baptisme , shall be compared , both that of the ancient Kirke , keeping Easter , and Pentecost , for the solemne times of Baptisme , and the other of the Popish kirke , and other kirkes , not well purged of the dregs of Popery , ministring Baptisme and Communion at all times , in private places , and before few persons ; it shall be found , that no better course could be taken , then that which hath been wisely appointed and observed , in the Kirke of Scotland , since the Reformation ; that the Sacraments be ministred in the ordinary meetings of GODS People ; unto which they had regard , and not unto the places of materiall Kirkes : which we adde , lest any should thinke , that we entertained any superstitious conceat of places . To the Fifth . TO the first Exception , we have even now answered , and need to adde no farder , concerning private Baptisme and Communion . 2. We looked , that your Argument , ad hominem , had beene closed in the fourth Reply , and wish , what ye had to say , against the Dispute , of Popish English Ceremonies , or any other Treatise of that kinde , or any of us in particular , had been keept to another time : for , would any of us , refuse to sweare the short Confession , because ye have expounded some Articles thereof , contrary to our minde ? Our desire is , that ye keep your own meaning of the negative Confession , and we keep ours , according to our diverse measures of light ; and , that both sides promise , Forbearance , as is required in the Covenant , which may very well stand both with your meaning , and ours : of ours , there is no question ; and of yours , there needeth none to be moved by you , since ye thinke them indifferent : and therefore , in such a case , may promise , to forbeare them . From this ground , and from the different use of the word Discipline , and Policy , it is easie to answere , both your Sorites , and Dilemma : for the late Covenant bindeth you to keep the former , according to the common meaning of the Subscrivers ; and not according to your Interpretation or ours , in particular : and the horns of your Dilemma , may be turned about against your selves : for we aske of you , Unto which of the members of the Distinction doe ye referre Episcopacy , and the Articles of Pearth ? if they were abjured for ever , before Pearth ▪ Assembly , how is it that ye have admitted and practised them , since that time ; for this were Perjury ? And if they were not abjured , but by the short Confession were left indifferent , why may ye not , for any impediment ye have from that Confession , forbeare now the practise of them ? We looked not for Velitations of this sort , which the change of Commissioners sent unto you , might have prevented , but for some solide and grave reasons , why ye could not subscrive the Covenant , whether presented from our hands , or the hands of others , our Learned and reverend Brethren , of your practise and judgement , who might have beene sent unto you in our place . In the meane time , because manie are intangled with the word of Discipline , and Policie , we desire the Reader to remember , that sometime the word is taken for the Rule of Government of the Kirke , and censure of Manners , by Office bearers appointed by Christ ; and thus it is unchangeable : sometimes for the constitutions of Counsels , and Acts of Parliament , about matters of Religion ; and thus it is alterable , or constant , according to the nature of particular Obiects : and thirdly , it is taken for the ordering of the circumstances , to be observed in all actions Divine , and Humane ; and thus it is variable . We appeale with you , to the indifferent Reader , who is judicious , whether it be necessarie for your Subscription , to know our Opinion of such Rites and Ceremonies , as are not of Divine institution . We have reason , [ for any thing that ever we heard to the contrary , these twenty years past ] to cleave unto the words of the Covenant , concerning such Rites as are brought into the Kirke without , or against the word of GOD. The Blessing of Marriage ( now the second time instanced ) we conceive , neither to be circumstance , it being neither time , place , order of doing , nor any such thing , nor a Ceremony properly so called , more then the Blessing of the People , commanded in the Law , and practised before the Law , or praying for a Blessing upon the Ordinance of GOD , that it may be sanctified unto His People : we neither exalt Marriage so high , as with the Papists , to thinke it a Sacrament ; nor doe we abase it so low , as to thinke it a paction or contract , meerely Civill , it being the Covenant of GOD , which cannot be disolved by consent of the parties , as other civill Contracts may be : and therefore , as we will not use it superstitiously , according to the prescript of the Service Booke ; so will we not for the abuse of Popery , although it were a Paction meerely civill , it being so important , with-holde Ecclesiasticke Benediction from it . To the Sixth . SIlence carrieth sometimes the appearance of consent , sometime it is from weaknesse ; and since yee know also , that it may at sometimes come from wisedome , and moderation ; why doe ye not rather keepe silence your selves , then make such an interpretation of ours ? We deny not , but Divines , both ancient and moderne , are against us , concerning the lawfulnesse of the thinges contraverted : but we withall affirme , first , that Divines , both ancient and moderne , are against you also ; and both may be true , for both are but propositions indefinite , in a matter contingent . 2. That almost all Divines universally are for us , and for the forbearance of thinges indifferent , in such a case , which is the point urged by us , and cleared before . Secondly , we deny not , but the Oath containeth many other Articles but concerning that of the Novations already introduced , if ye could have believed us , and so many thousands as have subscrived , it containeth no more , but the forbearance of them , for a time ; neither can any farther be extorted from the tenor of the Covenant it selfe , according to your grounds . If ye will interpret it according to the meaning which ye thought it had the last year , and which we urge you not to change . and to promise forbearance , can neither be contrary to that duety which ye ow to your flock , nor be disobedience to Authority , but a meane to edifie GODS people , and obedience to GOD. To the Seventh . FIrst , The reason propounded in the seventh Demand , for refuseing your subscription , because ye supposed Pearth Articles to have beene abjured , as Popish , is answered to the full , and impediment put out of your way . This other that ye propound , concerning our conception and meaning of the short Confession , may be as easily removed , if ye will once believe , that we urge not upon you our meaning but leave you to your own , till the matter be examined in an Assemblie . 2. Ye call some of those Novarions , necessarie ; but without warrand of that Assembly which concluded then , as indifferent , and all the rest you will have to be laud●ble : thus by progresse of time , things formerly indifferent , become necessary ; and what was but lawfull before , and had much adoe to gaine that reputation , is now become laudable ; where ye plainly discover the cause of your unwillingnesse to subscrive , not so much to be the commandement of Authority , as the necessity and excellency of the things commanded . Till ye , therefore , change this opinion , ye cannot promise forbearance , neither upon our dealing , nor at the commandement of Authority , although forbearance should serve for the peace of the Kirke , and Kingdome . To the Eight . FIrst , we remit the reader to our Answere , and your Reply , which we hope , shall be found no confutation . 2. We observe , that ye have not answered our Argument , for our swearing the defence of the KING , and his Authority , with a specification , which ye call a limitation ; wherein we have followed the Confession of Faith , ratified in Parliament , the KINGS Confession , and act of Parliament ; upon which ye will not doe well , to fasten so foule Imputations , and put so hard constructions , as ye doe , upon us , for inserting in our Covenant , what they have said before us . If our specification be right , why censure you it ? If it be wrong , why fasten ye not your censures upon the fountaine from which it is derived ? the loyalty of our intentions , to maintain the KINGS Person , and Honour , is so fully expressed , that it hath given content to those who are nearest his Majesty : and we should wrong , not only them , but also the Covenant , and the subscrivers thereof , if we should make new Declarations to others , of greater distance , who wrong both the KING , and themselves , in craving them . 3. To doe with a doubting Conscience , is a grievous sinne ; but to make and multiply do●b●s , for hindring a good worke , and to oppose against a shining light , is no lesse grievous . Ye spake before of a limitation , and now ye have added precisly ; as if the n●ming of one duety , were the excluding of all other dueties . We all , by our Oath of Alleadgeance , by his Majesties lawes , and by other obligations , acknowledge , that we owe many other dueties to the KING , which were very impertinent to expres in this Covenant . 4 What kynde of conference ye meane , whether by word or write , we know not ; but ( while we were among you ) ye know what notice you were pleased to take of us ; and we have no delight , to resent it ▪ To the Ninth . FIrst , We are ashamed , to draw this Rug-saw of contention , to and fro , in a continuall Reciprocation , concerning the forbearance of Pearth Articles : and therefore , forbearing to doe so any more , we referre the Reader to our former Answeres . 2. We doe not affirme , that the only reason , why kneeling was appointed , was because all memory of superstition was past . There be indeed other reasons expressed in the Act , but such as the Authors thereof may be ashamed of , as both perverting the Text , Psal. 95. as making kneeling to be necessary , in every part of GODS Worship , and as giving matter to many Treatises , proving kneeling before the Elements , to be Idolatrie , according to the Act , unto which we now referre you : but this we say , ( which is manifest by the Act it selfe ) that in the case of present superstition , or feare thereof , all other reasons had not beene forcible , to enforce kneeling then , nor can have force to continue kneeling now . This feare hath beene great , this year by past , throughout the Kingdom , by reason of the many superstitions of the Service Booke , which , it may be , ye no more acknowledge , then ye doe the superstitious dispositiō of the people , because they are not that which they were at the time of Reformation . 3. We would heare what malice it selfe can say against the words of the Protestation , That it shall be lawfull unto us , to defend Religion , and the KINGS Authority , in defence thereof , and every one of us of another , in that cause of maintaining Religion , and the KINGS foresaid Authority , and to appoynt , and hold meetings , to that end ; like as our Proceedings have beene in themselves most necessary and orderly means , agreable to the lawes and practise of this Kirke and Kingdom , to be comended , as reall duties of faithfull Christians , loyall subjects , and sensible members of the body of the Kirke and Kingdome , and tende to no other end , but to the preservation of Religion , and maintainance of the KINGS Authority . To your interrogatoures , ( which ye seeme to propone , rather to be snares to us , then for satisfaction to your selves ) we answere once for all in generall , that if this were the opportunitie of that disputation , we shall be found to deny nothing unto Authority of that which the word of GOD , the law of Nature , and Nations , the Acts of Parliament , these Royalists , sound Divines , and loyall Subjects , give unto Kings and Princes GODS Vice-Gerents on Earth ; and that not from respect to our selves , but to the Ordinance of GOD , by whom Kings reigne . But seeing so oft and so instantly , you presse us in this point , ye force us mutually to propone to you such Questions , as , it may be , ye will have no great delight to answere . 1. We desire to understand of you , whether ye allow , or disallow , the Service Booke , and booke of Canons ? if ye disallow them , as an innovation of Religion , why have ye not either joined in supplication with the rest of the Kingdome , or made a supplication of your own , against them , or some other way testified your Dislike ? Next ; whether it be pertinent for men of your place and Qualitie , to move Questions of State , touching the Power of Princes , and Liberties of Subjects , after His Majesties Commissioner , and wise States-men , have received Satisfaction of the Subjects , for suppressing such motions as yours ? 3. Whether doe the Subscrivers more tender His Majesties honour , by supposing his constancy , in profession of Religion , and equitable Disposition , in ministration of Justice ; or ye , who suppose he shall fall upon his Religious and Loyall Subjects , with force of Armes , contrary to both ? 4. Whether the joyning of the whole Kingdom , in the Subscription of the Covenant , or the entertaining of Division , by your writing , preaching , and threatning of your People , otherwise willing to joine , be a more readie meane to settle the present Commotions of the Kirke , and Kingdom ? 5. If the Prelates , and their Followers , labouring to introduce Popery in the Land , make a Faction by themselves , or as the Guisians in France , did abuse His Majesties name , in execution of the bloody Decrees of Trent , ( which GOD forbid ) we aske , Whether in such a Case , the lawfull defence of the body of the Kingdom , against such a Faction , be a resisting of the Magistrate , and a taking Armes against the KING ? If ye affirme it to be , is not this to take part with a Faction , seeking their own ends , against the common-wealth of the Kirke , and Kingdom , and honour of the KING ? If ye say not , Why then sinde ye fault with our Protestation , of defending the Religion , Liberties , and Lawes of the Kingdom , of the Kings Authority , in defence thereof , and every one of us of another , and in that cause , as if it were an unlawfull Combination against Authority ? 6. Whether doe ye think Christian Magistrats to be of so absolute & unbounded power , notwithstanding of any promise or paction made with the Subjects at their Coronation , or of any Law made for establishing their Religion and Liberties , that there is nothing left , but suffering of Mar●yrdome , in the case of publick Invasion , of their Religion and Liberties ? If ye thinke , that any defence , is lawfull , why misconstrue yee the Subscrivers of the Covenant ? If not , how can ye be free of Flattery , and of stirring up Princes against their loyall Subjects , for such ends as your selves know best ? We verily believe , that ye shall report small thanks , either of so good and just a KING , or of so duetifull Subjects , for entering within these Lists . It is enough , that such Questions be agitated in the Schooles , and that with as great prudency , and as circumspectly as may be . To the Tenth . FIrst , ye take us in our fourth Replye to be the penners of the Covenant , and yet will rather wrest the words of it , to your owne meaning , then receive the Interpretation thereof from us : for wee prejudge not your liberty of conception of that short Confession , but permit it to your selves , whatsoever may be the private meaning of some who have sub●crived ; yet there is nothing in the late Interpretation that c●ndemneth the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , as Popish Novations . Ye may voice and reason in an Assemblie as freely concerning them , and give your judgement of them , without prejudice , notwithstanding of your Oath , according to your own grounds , as you would have done at the Assembly of Pearth . 2. We hop● ye be not so ignorant of the estate of the Kirke , neither will we judge so uncharitably , as to thinke you so corrupt , that in your opinion there is nothing hath entred in the Kirke , since that time , designed by you , beside Episcopacy , and the Articles of Pearth , which can be thought prejudiciall to the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell . To the Eleventh . FIrst , ye finde fault with us , that we have not upon this occasion , given you that testimony which we owe to you , of your sincerity , in professing the trueth ; and therefore , to supplie our defects , have taken an ample Testimony to your selves , of paines in disputing , in wrytting , and preaching against Popery , in processing of Papists , and in doing all thinges which can be expected from the most zealous , of frequent prayer to GOD , of humbling your selves before him , of your holinesse of Life , and Conversation , &c. which have made us who were desirous to heare that Testimony , rather at the mouths of others , that we might be no more challenged as deficient in that kinde , but give unto you your deserved praise , to inquire in matters ; whereupon , if we would believe the report of others , wee heare , that for all your pains , Papists , and Persons Popishly affected , are multiplied , and Papistry increased in your towne , more then in any other town of the Kingdom , & no lesse under your Ministrie , then any time before , since the Reformation ; that there be in private houses Messes , Crucisixes , and other monuments of Idolatry ; that ye have not many converts from Popery ; that Jesuits , and Priests ; are countenanced there ; that your People at home , and your Magistrats abroad , complain , that ye are but too sparing of your pains in preaching , and often fill your places with Novices : but this we are sparing to believe , and wish , that the not imploying of your Tongues , and Pennes , in the defence of the Service Booke and Canons , which are so pestred with Popery , [ if the seeds of Romish Heresie , Superstition , Idolatry , and Papall tiranny , come under that censure ] and your willingnesse to joyne with the Kirke and Kingdom , in Fasting and Humiliation , had been also Testimonies of your sincerity against Popery . 2. The laudable means of Preaching , Praying , &c. which we wish may be still in all faithfulnesse used by you , may very well agree with the renewing of our Covenant with GOD ; and both being joined , have , in a short time past , produced more powerfull effects , to the comfort of many thousands , then all our Prayers and Preaching hath done for a long time before : which testifie , That , as it is warranded by the Word of GOD ; so the motion hath pr●ceeded from GOD. All the Arguments and Subtilties that can be devised , will never make a People , ( who at this time have found GOD dwelling , and working in their hearts ) to thinke the contrary . 3. The naturall inclination of people to Popery , and the perswasion of others , of their disposition , may make ▪ the people to conceive other wayes of the Service Booke , and Canons , that ere it be long , they may be brought in , in a faire and legall way : and therefore , it is necessary , for preventing of those , and other Evills of that kinde , that the Subjects joine in a Covenant , both for themselves , and their Posterity . To the Twelfth . FIrst ; we have ever preached according to our measure , and have given example of reverence to Authority , and the LORDS Service : but we neither acknowledge the usurped Authority of prelates , for lawfull Authority , nor the Service Booke , for the Lords Service . And therefore , it was so much the more intollerable for the Prelates , without Authority from the Kirke , or Parliament , to bring in the Service Booke into GODS own house , upon the LORDS own Day . Which maketh it nothing strange , that people zealous of the Trueth , and of the Service of GOD , were stirred up , to oppose : and we are very confident , that these who have opposed , doe beare as loyall respect to the KINGS Majesty , and will be as loath to provoke him to just wrath , as their opposites are . In the meane time , why doe ye not acknowledge , that the children were higher provoked to wrath , by the Prelates , whom ye account reverend and holy Fathers ? 2. As the preservation of our own private Possession , from Invasion of others , belongeth to our selves , under the KINGS Protection ; so the keeping of GODS House , from Pollution , and Superstition , belongeth to Authority , to the community of the Faithfull , and to every one in his own place , and order . 3. We told you before , that we did no more allow violences of that kinde , nor we did allow the ●oule aspersions of Rebellion , Heresie , Schisme and Perjury , put upon the Noblemen , ( and remnant Covenanters . ) And where ye aske of us , Why these tumults are not publickly by us condemned , and rebuked ? we aske againe of you , why ye did not condemne and rebuke such dealing , since that is no lesse transgression , both against the sixt and nynth Command , then the other is against the sixt ? And whereas ye are now so peremptorie , in drawing a Declaration from us , answearable to that which ye have given concerning the foresaid Aspersions and Calumnies , we having no commission , to declare the mindes of others in this point , or to give Documents , for our own private judgement , doe heartily disallow every wrong of that kynde . As for the Apologie of D. JOHN FORBES of Corse , seeing the wrong hath been done not unto some few particular persons , such as ye say have been wronged by some of the people ; but unto the body of the Kingdome , consisting of Noble-men , Barons ▪ &c. who are highly offended thereby , it were in us Presumption , and without the bounds of our Calling , to take upon us , to receive any Declaration of that kinde , especially wherein so many thinges are reprovable ; as first , That his bitter speaches were occasioned by some printed Bookes , affirming , that Episcopacy , and Pearth Articles , were Antichristian , and abominable . Supposing it were true , did he thinke the Noblemen , and whole Covenanters , to be the Authors of those Books ? And was this dealing agreable to that Christian meeknesse so much required of us before ? The Writers of those printed Books , are not the first who have spoken so : For Master KNOX spared not , ( in a Letter of his ) to call this kneeling , A Diabolicall Invention . Secondly ; The swearing of Forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles , and the Confirmation of the said Doctrine , which we neither deny , nor affirme , to be imported in the olde Covenant , but only in the Interpretation thereof , we declare , That Promise is only made , to forbeare for a time , doth not deserve so bitter a Censure as this apologie beareth upon us . 3. If the KINGS Majesty , Counsell , or the Subjects of Scotland , had asked his opinion , and advice , he might have used the greater liberty . 4. It is ill apologized , to call it a holie indignation , and worse defended , since it is such a wrath , as worketh not the righteousnesse of GOD. 5. Whereas he desireth to be accounted in the number of these , qui proficiendo scribunt , & scribendo proficiunt , we could wish , that he had profited better by writing , then he hath done by writing his Irenicum first , and now this his Warning , after his Irenicum : for which if he make no better Apologie , then confessing Asperity of words , proceeding from an holy indignation , it will come to passe of his Apology , as it fared with his Irenicum , unto which was applyed fitly , what was spoken in the like case , Aut fabrum forceps , aut ars ignara fefellit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 voluit cudere cudit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 6. Whereas ye desire us , to doe the like , if ye meane of us personallie , we have declared our judgement , and shall be carefull to approve our selves to GOD , and the consciences of all men , in every such duety : and if ye meane us , and those that sent us , we shall not faill to report unto them , what ye desire , although our Commission from you had been the more acceptable , if ye had spoken more reverently of our Confession and Covenant , then ye have been pleased to doe , in the words of your desire , and had put your hand unto the Covenant ; which would presently have joined us in a greater Affection , and made way for union in judgement , and perfect peace , which is the desire of our Soules . To the Thirteenth . YEE pretended a threefolde Scandall , which should follow upon your Subscription : 1. The Scandall of Dissenting from other Reformed Kirks , and famous Divynes . 2. The Scandall of Dissenting from Authority . 3. The Scandall of Perjury . We answered , That the contraverted words of the Covenant being rightly conceived , and interpreted according to their true meaning , and not after the glosse which ye have put upon them , doe put you out of danger of all the three Scandalls , which ye seem to acknowledge of the first two , and may by the like reason acknowledge of the third , of Perjury . We dispute not of the lawfulnesse of the Oath given at your Admission , by what Authority it was exacted , with what conscience it was given , nor how ye can answere for the Scandall risen thereupon : but conceiving it according to your own grounds , none of you will say , that ye have sworne the perpetuall approbation and practise of these things which ye esteeme to be indifferent , whatsoever bad consequent of Popery , and Idolatrie , Superstition , or Scandall should follow thereupon : we speake here only of things indifferent , in your own judgement ; for ye have declared before , that ye thinke the Ministration of the Sacraments in private places , no more indifferent : & therefore , can not forbeare the practise of these , although your Ordinary , and other lawfull Superiours , should will you to doe so ; wherein Pearth Assembly , for which you stand , is wronged by you two wayes : 1. That ye differ in judgement from them , about the indifferencie of the five Articles : and next , that at the will of your Ordinary , and we know not what other lawfull Superiours , ye are ready to forbeare the practise of these things which the Assembly hath appointed to be observed . What Oaths ye have given at your admission , we know not , because there is no Ordinance made , Civill , or Ecclesiastick , appointing any such Oath , and because the Prelats , who arrogated that power , presented to the intrants diverse models of Articles , to be subscrived , dealing with some more hardlie , and with others more favourably , according to their own diverse motivs , & considerations . For some immediatly after Pearth Assembly , without any warrand from the Kirke or Parliament , were made to sweare at their Admission , that they should both in private and publick maintaine Episcopall Jurisdiction , and in their private and publicke Prayers , commend the Prelates to GODS mercifull Protection ; that they should subject themselves to the Orders that presently were in the Kirke , or by the consent of the said Kirke , should be lawfully established . The word lawfully , was not in the Principall first subscrived , [ as we have learned ] and if it had been exprest , it is all one , for the Superiours were judges to this lawfulnesse and unlawfulnesse . We will not labour to reconcile every Oath given by Ministers , at their entry with the present Covenant ; but wish , and exhort rather , that they may be recalled , and repented of , as thinges for which they can not answere before a generall Assembly . To the Fourteenth . IF the words of the Covenant be plaine , concerning the meere forbearance , and speake nothing of the unlawfulnesse , no mans thoughts can make a change . 2. By this Reply ye wrong your selves , in forging from the words of the Covenant , impediments , and drawing stumbling blockes in your own way , to hinder your subscription : ye wrong the subscryvers , in changing the state of the question , and in making a divorce betwixt Religion and the KINGS Authority , which the Covenant joineth together , hand in hand : and , most of all , ye wrong the KINGS Majesty , in bringing him upon the stage , before his Subjects , in whose mindes ye would beget , and breed , suspicions of opposing the trueth , of making innovation of Religion , and of dealing with his Subjects , contrary to his Lawes and Proclamations , and contrary to the Oath at his Coronation . We are not here seeking inscitiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or starting hole of ignorance , or of the smallest disloyalty of affection ; but would willingly decline that for the present , which neither his Majesties wisdome , nor the prudence of Statsmen , nor the modesty of good subjects , will allow you or us to dispute . The Crowns and Scepters of Kings , would be more tenderly touched , then the ordinary subjects of Schoole disputes . The naked naming , and bare proposall of certaine suppositions , such ( as some are made by you ) can not but reflex upon Authority , and sound harsh in the eares of all his Majesties good subjects , who wish , that he may long and prosperously reigne over us . 3. His Majesties most honourable privy Counsell , hath proven more favourable to this cause of maintaining the reformed Religion , then many Pastors , whom by reason of their place and Calling , it beseemed to goe before others ; and although according to their wonted custome , they gave warrand , to make his Majesties Proclamation , yet on good groundes , remonstrated unto them by the Supplicants , they willingly refused their approbation thereof ; hoping that his Majesty should be moved to give greater satisfaction thereafter : and this is not our saying , but a publicke doing , before many honorable witnesses ; of which number some were directed unto you ; whose report ye have no reason to call in question . 4. It becometh us , to judge charitably of the intentions of our Superiours ; and most of all , of the intentions of our dread Soveraigne . Yet , if that hold good which the supplicants have offred to prove , that the Service Booke , and Canons , containe a reall innovation of Religion , we must judge otherwise , de conditione operis , of the matters contained in the Booke , then de intentione operantis , of his Majesties intention ; although the intention of the Prelates , & their Associates , the Authors & contrivers of the Bookes , be most justly suspected by us . 5. It is no delight to us , and can be but small comfort to you , to mention the wrongs , which by you are done to us all who have joined in this Covenant , and doe adhere to the Religion as it was reformed in this land ; in your estimation & writings , we are Rebellious , perjured , hereticks , schismaticks , blind guydes , seducers , miserable interpreters , ignorants : shal such men as these be your reverēd Brethren . Is this your meeknesse and charity ? Is this the duety ye expect from us ? But setting these aside , ye have wronged us , in with-holding your hand and help from so good a Cause , of purging Religion , and reforming the Kirke , from so many grosse abuses , and opposing all those who have modestly laboured for Reformation . Your speaches in private , in your chambers , beds of sicknesse , and in your missives , and in publicke , at tables , and in Synods , which are come to our knowledge ; we wish rather should be remembred , and repented of , by your selves , then be recited by us , who desire not to worke you any trouble . 6. Although there be a perpetuall harmony betwixt the Word and Works of GOD , far contrary to that which we finde to be amongst the Children of men ; yet often it commeth to passe , that the Word and Warnings of GOD , which we heare with our ears , are not believed , till we behold with our eyes , the plaine Cōmentaries thereof , in His Works . Many Proofs , and notable Documents , have been observed of the Finger of GOD , in the Worke in hand , the Characters of the great Works of GODS , more then ordinary Providence , since the beginning , are legible here . Then did the LORD begin this work , when the Adversary was raised to a great hight , and become intollerably insolent . The beginnings were small , and in the eyes of the World , contemptible ; such as use to be the beginnings not of the works of men , but of the Magnificke works of GOD : the power of GOD sensible in the hearts of many , and manifested by the joy ; the tears and cries of many thousands , at the solemne renewing of this Covenant , hath been a matter of admiration , and amazement , never to be forgotten , to many wise and ancient Pastors , and Professors , who did also finde an unwonted flame , warming their own breasts ; the plots , and workings of the Adversary , have wrought against their own Projects , and have served for our ends , more then all that have been thought , or done by our selves ; that we may justly say , what they devised , for evill , the LORD hath turned to good ; many thousands conveened , diverse times , in one place , have been keept in such order , and quietnesse , without the smallest trouble , in such sobernesse , and temperance without excesse or ryot , that hardly can History furnish a Paralell : and what effects there be already throughout the Land , of Piety in Domesticke worship , in observing the exercises of Religion , in publick , of soberness in dyet and apparell , and of Righteousnesse and Concord , we trust shall be sensible by the Blessings of GOD upon us , and shall be examplary to the Posterity . These we present unto you , and unto all , as a Commentary , written by the LORDS own Hand ; wishing again , that neither ye nor others , be found fighting against GOD. Who so is wise , and will observe these things , even they shall understand the loving kindnesse of the LORD , Psal. 107. 43. LORD , when thy hand is lifted up , they will not see ; but they shall see , and be ashamed , for their envy at the People , Isai. 26. 11. Master ALEXANDER HENDERSON , Minister at Leuchars . Master DAVID DICKSON Minister at Irwin . DUPLYES Of the MINISTERS and PROFESSORS of ABERDENE , TO The second Answeres of some Reverend Brethren , CONCERNING THE LATE COVENANT . If thou take forth the precious from the vyle , thou shalt be as my mouth : Let them returne unto thee , but returne not thou unto them . JEREM. 15. 19. Honour all men : love the Brotherhood : feare GOD : Honour the KING . 1. Pet. 2. 17. To the Unpartiall READER . IT may be you have not , as yet , heard the true relation of our proceedings , and carriage , towards those two reverend Brethren , who came lately hither , to recommend to us , and our People , the late Covenant : We declare therefore to you , that we hearing of their comming , and intention , and being of a contrary minde , resolved , that before we should give consent , that they should preach to our people , we would propone to them , by way of certaine Demands , the chiefe reasons which made us to be averse from their proceedings ; promising to admit them to our pulpits , if they should give us satisfaction , concerning the late Covenant . We intended not to print these Demands at the first ; but afterwards considering how much our people might be confirmed by them , in that pious resolution which they have , to continue in the obedience of the Lawes of this Church and Kingdome , concerning Episcopacy , and those things which were concluded in Pearth Assembly ; we thought good to put them to the Presse , but determined not to make use of them , by divulgating them , except we saw that our people stood in present need of them ; which indeed came to passe : for upon Fryday , the twenty of Iullie last , these reverend Brethren came to this Town , and having that same night received our Demands in writ , they returned their Answeres unto them on Saturday following , late in the evening : but they came no● to our hands , who replyed unto them , untill Sunday in the morning . Neither had we leasure to reade , or consider , untill both the Sermons were ended in our Churches . Wherefore we did meet together that day , at foure houres afternoone , that we might peruse them . And at that same time , hearing that these reverend Brethren had preached in audience of dyverse of our people , conveened in the court of a Noble-man his lodging , not having obtained our consent thereto , and in their Sermons had used a forme of answering to our Demandes , which they did publickly reade , affirming , that they had given full satisfaction to us , in a written copie of their Answeres , which they had sent to us : and by that means , had laboured to disswade and draw our People from their obedience unto the Articles of Pearth , and the Lawes of this Kingdome ratifying them : we knowing how insufficient their Answeres were , to give satisfaction to any , who would duely ponder our Demands , gave licence to the Printer to devulgate them , and the next day did write our Replyes to their Answeres , intending to put them to the Presse on tuesday . But we were earnestly entreated by a noble Man , to send backe to them the copie of their Answeres , that they might revise and perfect them , and also to delay the printing of our Replyes untill Fryday following . Which we willingly granted . But wherefore this was desired of us , you may conjecture ; seeing they neither added , nor diminished , nor altered any thing in their Answeres . Upon the next Friday at night , we gave our Replyes to the Printer : and to these reverend Brethren , who returned not to this Citie , untill Saturday following , we sent a copie of our Replyes in write , on the LORDS Day : unto which we received not their Answeres , untill they came from the Presse , to wit , on Tuesday the fourteenth of August : that is , eyghteene dayes after they had received our Replyes . What successe these Brethren had in their Sermons , which they preached here , upon two severall LORDS Dayes , it is sufficiently known : neither have they reason to talke so much of it as they doe , in their Preface to the Reader . The first of these dayes , some few who were thought to be that way inclined before , subscryved their Covenant : But the next LORDS Day , they scarce prevailed with any at all . And a great many , who heard them both these dayes , professed , that they returned from their Sermons , more averse from the Covenant , then they were before . Now good Reader , we present to thee our Replyes , to their second Answeres ; which for shortnesse cause , we have called Duplyes : we pray you consider them unpartially . And if you reap any benefite by perusing them , let it no● be ascrived unto us , but to the invincible force of divine Trueth . We conclude with Zer●babell , saying , Blessed be the GOD of Trueth : And let all the People shout , and say , Great is Trueth , and mighty above all thinges . To our Reverend Brethren Mr. ALEXANDER HENDERSON ▪ And Mr. DAVID DICKSON . THat your Answeres , Reverend and Deare Brethren ; have not in any degree satisfied us , we impute it not to your weaknesse , whom we know to be able Men , and much exercised in the matters debated betwixt us : but we impute it to the weaknesse of your cause , and to that inabilitie which is in all men , as well as in you , to beare out against the Trueth . We are sory that ye are not so respective , and favourable , in your judgement of us : for ye plainly declare in your Preface , that ye suspect us of prejudice : and that for two reasons . The first is , that our Demands , which yee conceived had been meerely intended for you , were published before your comming in Print : as also , that our REPLYES were Printed before we received your last Answeres to them . When●e ye conclude , that wee were rather aiming at victory , moved thereto by prejudice , then at satisfaction by searching of the Trueth . This reason is grounded upon a mistaking : for although our Demands at the first , were intended for you onely , yet afterwards we resolved to Print them , as also our REPLYES , ( the Printing whereof did nowayes depend upon your second Answeres . ) not for love of contention , nor desire of vict●ry ( GOD knoweth ) but for such reasons , as we have expressed in our Preface to the unpartiall Reader , whom we hope we have satisfied in this point . Your other reason is , that the grounds of your Answers to us , have proven satisfactory to others ; who for Age and Learning , are prime men of this Kingdom : and to whome our modestie will not suffer us , to preferre our selves . Farre be it from us to be so presumptuous , as to preferre our selves to so many Learned and worthy Divines : and as farre be it from us , to measure the soliditie , and sufficiencie of your Answeres , by the Habilities or Induments of these , who have acquiesced in them . If this your reason were good , the Papists might more probablie accuse us of prejudice , ( as indeed they unjustlie doe ) because their Answeres to our Arguments , have proven satisfactorie to many thousands of those , who for profunditie , and subtilitie of wit , are inferiour to none of the World : but we regarde not this slender motive , remembring these words of our Saviour , I thanke Thee , O Father , Lord of Heaven and Earth , because Thou hast hid these things from the Wise and Prudent , and hast revealed them unto Babes : even so , O Father , for so it seemed good in Thy sight . Besides , if ye compare the Divines , Ancient and Moderne , who are of our judgement , with these who favour your opinion , either in number , or in the excellency of their gifts , ye shall finde that in this , the advantage is greatlie ours . In the meane time ye shall know , that we can bring far better reasons to free our selves of prejudice , then these which ye have brought against us , to wit , the soliditie of our Arguments , which have put you to such straits , ( pardon us to say that , which every one who have eyes may see ) that oft times ye doe not so much , as attempt to answere them , being glad to passe them by , with the show of an Argument in contrarium , or some other like shift : our humble & earnest attestations , in calling GOD , the onelie competent Iudge ; as witnesse of our sincerity , in the inmost thoughts of our soul ; our seriously professed Resolution , to concurre with you , if we should get satisfaction from you , the modestie , ingenuitie , and peaceablenesse of our writings to you , and on the contrarie , your too great disdainfulnesse and asperitie in your second Answeres ; bewraying not onelie the weaknesse of your mindes , farre by our expectation , but also the weaknesse of your cause to unpartiall Readers , who ascrive this to the pungent force of our Arguments ; judging , that they have made you somewhat more cholerike then you were before . To this wee will adde the great reluctance , which some of the most Iudicious Subscribents did finde in their Consciences , before they subscrived your Covenant ; together with the Limitations , and Reservations , wherewith they subscrived it ; evidently arguing their ▪ strong apprehension , of the dangerous ambiguitie and haske sounding of the words of the late Covenant : so that even these who are now joined with you , have been much affrighted with those things which terrifie us . As for your Protestation in the end of your Epistle , that ye can no more be brought to our minde , then ye can be drawn from the profession of our Religion , as it hath been reformed , sworne , &c. Although this importeth no small prejudice , possessing and over-ruling your minds ; yet looking to the invincible force of that Trueth which we mantaine , we even yet hope that at last it shall prevaile with you ; espe●iallie considering that our con●roversie is not concerning the Reformed Religion ; whereunto we as sincerelie adheare as any whatsoever , but concerning the equitie of that forme of Covenant which ye lateli● made . Wishing you and all others , to adheare truelie and sincerelie , to the same true Religion ; and to all the dueties which in it are recommended to you : we most humblie , and earnestlie pray the Almightie GOD , to pitie his Church in this Kingdom , and to unite all our hearts in Trueth and Peace , in these most dangerous dayes : which although they be to you dayes of gladnesse , as ye professe , yet to those who love the peace of Sion , and the tranquilitie of this Kingdome , they are sad and melancholious dayes , in respect of the blacke clowdes of GODS wrath , hanging over our heads , and threatning us with stormes of fearfull Calamities : which we pray the Almightie GOD ▪ to avert . THE FIRST DUPLY. IN our Disputes against the Papists , ( which have been frequent , and by GODS grace not unfruitfull , ) as we have learned , that to multiply objections against the Trueth , is a thing easie , as ye say , but fruitlesse and vain : so also we have learned , that to multiply Evasions , against solide Arguments brought for the Trueth , is a thing no lesse easie , but altogether unprofitable : which we pray you take heed to . How forcible are right words ? but what doth your arguing reprove ? JOB 6. 25. 2. Ye say , that our objection , against your calling , and the warrand of your comming to us , was framed and published in Print , before it was proponed unto you , and ere your Answere could be had . Indeed our Demands were at the Presse at your comming , that they might be in readinesse ; but were not published , before your selves in your Sermons did publickly read them , and dispute against them , in audience of such of our People as were there present for the time ; albeit that written copie of them was delivered to you onely , and not at that time communicated by us to any other . 3. Your Authority which ye acclaim , is neither from his Majestie , nor warranded by Act of Parli●ment , nor by the Lords of his Majesties Counsell , nor by any Nationall Synode of this Kingdom , nor by any Judicatory established in it . And both in your first Answere , as also now again ye professe , that ye came not hither to us●rpe the Authority , of any Civill or Spirituall Judicatorie . As for your multitude , ( which ye call almost the whole Kirke and Kingdom ) it being destitute of Authority foresaid , maketh no warrand of ordinary calling . Therfore , ye seeme to pretend an extraordinary calling from GOD , alleadging an extraordinary necessitie at this time , which truely we see not in any such degree , as may deserve and warrand so great a change from the received order , which is publickly by Lawes established in this Kirke and Kingdom . That saying of the Apostle ▪ Let us consider one another , to provoke unto love , and to good workes , which ye alleadge for your extraordinary imployment , importeth not an extraordinary calling , but an ordinary duety , to be performed by all Christians , according to their Callings . 4. The Word of GOD , and the Canons of Counsells , doe so permit to Pastors , the care of the whole Kirke , as they must remember to doe all things , decently and in order , and not to interpone themselves in their Brethrens charges , and against their will. And praised be GOD , there was not any Combustion , Errour or Confusion , in these places of our charges , as ye doe alleadge : Neither did our People stand in need , of such helpe from you . And if ye meane the Combustion of our Nationall Kirke , we doe thinke your remeed not convenient ; as being , in our judgement , not agreable to the right way of Trueth and Peace . 5. Whereas ye alleadge , that if some members of this Kirke , had not cared more kindly , in this time of common danger , then others have done , the whole body had been ere now dangerously , if not desperately , diseased ; we answere , that we most heartily wish , any disease of this Church , to be rymously prevented and cured . But with all we wish this to be done without a rupture , and such a dangerous division : chiefly seeing our Church is not infected with any such Errours , nor is in such dangers , as may give just occasion , of so fearfull a division : which in it selfe is a sore disease , and from which in holy Scripture , we are often , and very earnestly dehorted . Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria , in his Epistle to Novatian , recorded by Eusebius , Lib. 6. Historiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cap 37. worthily sayeth , You ought rather to have suffered any thing whatsoever , for avoyding of cutting as under the Kirke of GOD : and Martyrdome for keeping the Kirke from Schisme , is no lesse glorious , the● which is suffered , for not committing Idolatry . And in my opinion also it is greater ; for in suffering Martyrdom for not cōmitting Idolatry , a man suffereth for one , even for his own soul ; but here a man suffereth Martyrdome for the whole Kirke . 6. Ye affirme , that we have no reason to complaine of your carriage , here towards us , in respect ye for your Sermons preached to our People , made choise of vacant houres , that they might attend the ordinary times of Worship . But indeed this satisfieth not our complaint : for we justly complained of your preaching to our People , without our consent , at any houre ; and of your labouring , to make them subscrive the late Covenant , before ye had given satisfaction to us , concerning the equity of it . 7. Ye reprove us for these harmlesse wordes of a confederation , & negative Confession . That little Confession , was long agoe called negative , à parte majore . And as for that other word , it is well knowne to al those who are expert in our Mother tongue , & in the Latine , that covenanting , and confederation , doe signifie one , and the same thing : and therefore , both these wordes are alike respectfull , in our judgement . Whereas ye say , that your Covenant is made with GOD , and doe call it his Covenant : and likewise for justifying your swearing , and subscriving thereof , doe bring some places of Scripture , wherein mention is made of a Covenant , and Oath , betwixt GOD and his People ; we shall then allow the same name , and respect unto your Covenant , when ye shall make it manifest , that your Covenant in all points therein contained , hath no lesse warrand from the written word of GOD , then that Covenant which the Israelites did swear in the days of JOSHUA , Ioshua 24. verse 25. and in the dayes of JEHOIADA the Priest , 2. Kings 11. v. 17. and in the dayes of King ASA , 2. Chron. 15. v. 15. and that which is mentioned by Isaiah , 44. v. 5. 8. As we are still informed , that some have fled the Countrey , and some have subscrived for feare ; so no Pastors in our knowledge have gone to Court , for the causes alleadged by you . We doe not presume to judge of the Consciences of men , and we wish you to judge more charitably , of these reverend Prelates , then ye doe . The occasion of this present storme was pretended to be the introduction of the Bookes of Service , and Canons , and the high Commission . These causes are now removed ; and yet the storme continueth so vehement , ( as ye seeme to grant ) that the Bishops have just feares warranding their flight , to save their persons ; which we judge to be too great violence , for any such cause , against persons in so sacred a calling . 9. We shall assuredly , ( by the grace of GOD ) still contribute , as ye desire , our prayers , and all other means agreable to our consciences , for extinguishing of the present combustion . And for that effect , every one of us shall secretly , and humbly , mourne before the LORD , and shall search and trye our wayes , and turne unto the Lord. And as we have already humbled our selves publickly , with Fasting and Mourning for that effect , so are we readie in time to come , to doe the like , when it shall be indicted or allowed by Authority , according to the established order in this Kirke and Kingdome . Yea , also we are ready to joine with you in the late Covenant , so soone as we shall receive satisfaction to our consciences , concerning the lawfulnesse thereof ; which as we have protested before , so doe we yet protest , and professe . 10. The Reasons which ye touch in your first Answere , for proving that we might without just offence to any , joine with you in subscriving the Covenant , are sufficiently answered in our first Replye . For , First , It is not yet decerned in a Nationall Assembly , whether your Interpretation added to the old Covenant , be in all points sound or unsound ; and therefore we have reason to think , that this new Covenant , is not substantially one with the old : chiefly seeing it addeth to the old Covenant , not onely your Interpretation of it , but also a promise of forbearance of the practise of Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed in an Assembly ; and like-wise a Band of Mutuall Defence , by force of Armes , made without the KINGS privity and consent . Secondly , Your inference of Mutuall Defence , against all persones whatsoever , drawne from the words of the old Covenant , is meerly invalide . For nothing was pactioned or promised in the old Covenāt , without the KINGS Majesty his privity ; but the Band of Mutuall Defence , against all persons whatsoever , in this your new Covenant , is without the command or consent of the KING , to whom only the Sword is given in this Kingdom , immediatly by GOD. See to this purpose the words of KING Iames the sixth of blessed Memory , in his Booke entituled , The Law of free Monarchies , in the English edition of his royall workes , at London , Anno 1616. Pag. 206. That which ye adde concerning the Generall Band , is also little to the purpose , for that Band had the KINGS warrand , whereas his Majesty doeth now forbid your Covenant . Thirdly , Although the former Oath subscrived , did appertain onely to the persons of the subscrivers , all the dayes of their lives ; yet you have in your Interpretation , extended the Obligation thereof , to the present and succeeding Generations in this land , without any warrand either from publick Lawes , or from the words of the Oath it self : which also is a substantiall Difference betwixt that Oath , & your late Covenant . Whereas ye alleadge , that the warrand which the old Covenant had from KING , Counsell , and Assembly , remaineth virtually , and was never yet discharged ; we answere , it remaineth not , and that because KING Iames of blessed Memory , disalowed that little Confession , in respect of the inconveniency of the multitude of Negatives , as is cleare by his Majesties words , published in the printed summe of the conference holden at Hampton Court , Anno 1603. And no former Act of Counsell , made in the time of any former King , doeth sufficiently warrand our Consciences to subscrive any Oath now , which seemeth to us to be disagreable to the Act of Parliament ; and which our present Dread Soveraigne LORD , the KINGS Ma●esty , by his publick Proclamations ; and other Intimations of his Royall pleasure , forbiddeth us to subscrive . And as for the Acts of these two Assemblies , which did enjoine subscription to the said little Confession , they were relative to the KINGS Mandate , which is now expired by his own Declaration , and with his Royall breath , according to that cōmon Maxime : Morte mandatoris expirat mandatum . Extra . D● officio & potestate judicis delegati , Cap. 19. relatum est in glossa . For the injunction was given for that time onely , as we conceive ▪ being warranded by the words of these Assemblyes . 11. These that were suspect of Papistrie amongst us , have not been urged by us to subscrive that negative Confession ; but onely some Articles relative to the Nationall Confession . And as ●or such as receive degrees , in Philosophie , in our Colledges , they doe sweare onely to the true reformed Religion , as it is publickly professed and preached , according to GODS word , in this Kirke of Scotland , and established by publicke Authority , with a generall abjuration of all , both Popish , and other Heresies contrary thereto . And those who receive degrees of Divinity , doe more expresly sweare to the Orthodox determinations of the ancient Catholicke Kirke , as is evident by the words of the Oath , whereof the tenor followeth . E Go A. B. sancte & ex animo coram omniscio & omnipotente Deo consiteor & profiteo sidem eam quae de sancta Trinitate , & Mediatore Emmanuele à sanctis Patribus in sex primis OEcumenicis conciliis , contra Pauli Samosateni , Sabellii , Arii , Macedonii , Apollinaris , Nestori● , Eu●●chetis , & Mon thelitarum haereses proposita explicata & defensa est , esse vere Christianam , orthodoxam , Catholicam , ex sacris Canonicis scripturis ha●stam ; Symbolum quoque sancti A ▪ hanasii ut similiter orthodoxum me recipere . Item me ex animo de●estari haeresin Pelaginam , ejusque reliquias Semipelagianas , & eas haereses quae Imaginibus aut ulli merae creaturae religiosam concedunt ad●rationem . Item , me monarchiam Papae Romani in universam Ecclesiam , & ejus cùm in spiritualibus tùm in temporalibus primatum , & judicii Papalis in religionis controversiis infallibilitatem , tanquam antichristiana deliramenta rejice●e . Omnes etiam alias haereses tum ol●m invectas , tum recens sub Romani Pontificis tyranmde natas anathematizo . Agnosco Spiritum sanctum in Canonicis V. & N. Testamenti scripturis per Prophetas , Evangelistas , & Apostolos loquentem , esse nobis unicum , supremu● , infallibilem , & ordinarium omnium de fide vitaque Christiana contraversiarum Iudicem . Et S. scripturam Canonicis V. a● N. Testamenti libris comprehensam esse unicam , certam , stabilem , perfectam , totalem regulam fidei vitaeque Christianae , tum quoad textum , tum quoad interpretationem authenticam seu divinae authoritatis ; & hanc quae hodie in Ecclesia Scoticana palam & publica authoritate ex sacro D E I verbo proponitur decredendis , sperandis , amandis , doctrinam esse orthodoxam , Catholicam . Et ipsam hanc Ecclesiae Scoticanae doctrinam , ●e ad extremum usque vitae meae hali●um constanter per D E I gratiam professurum & pro ●●● vocatione defensurum sancte promitto , juro . Insuper almae h●i● Universitati c●i hunc scholasticum ( docturae Theologicae ) honore●● d●●ebo , me nunquam ingratum futurum , sed semper ei ex animo fa●turum , ejusque commoda , pie serio , sedulo , fideliter promoturum sanct● etiam ●oram eodem omniscio & omnipo●ente D E O promitto , juro . We , who were graduated here , did sweare this Oath , and now , for satisfaction of others , we all doe sincerly attest GOD , that we doe , and shall adh●are to it , constantly , all the dayes of our life . 12. Ye doe againe object to us , that we have presumed to disallow your expl●nation of the late Covenant , which hath beene publickly allowed by his Majesties Commissioner : adding thereto , that we will have the Kingdome guiltie of combination against Authority , & that we will not have the KING to be satisfied ; whence ye ●nferre , that our dealing is more sutable to Papists , and such incendiaries , then for us ; who desire to prove good Patriots , in using all meanes of pacification . But certainly ye wrong us : ●or what was done by his Majesties Commissioner , anent your Declaration and explanation of your Covenant , is evident by his Grace own letter , lately written to us of that matter ; whereby his Grace hath declared , that he was no wayes contented therewith , and that his Majesty hath not received any satisfaction thereby . The same is evident also , by his Grace own Manifesto , prefixed to our Demands , your first Answeres , and our first Replies ; reprinted at Edinburgh , by his Gr. speciall command . To the which Manifesto , or Declaration of his Majesties high Commissioner , we remit the Reader , for his full satisfaction , in this , and some other points of your Answeres . 13. We intend not to beare upon you , and your associates , ( who take to your selves the name of the Kingdom , here in this your Answere ) guiltinesse of combination against Authority , as we have protested and declared , in the end of our ●romer Replyes : but in the tendernesse of our Consciences , we doe uprightly ●ignifie to you our scruples , which hinder us from approving or subsc●iving your Covenant . And we are so free of that odious imputation , of taking part with any Incendiaries , or imitating any proceedings of that kinde ; as we heartily wish , and shall endeavour , to prove good Patriots , a●d Christians , in such evident love of trueth and peace , as it shall be manifest , that we neither have beene , nor shall be Authors , or Fomen●ers , o● this miserable combustion . 14. Ye are sory , ye say , that we should account your Covenant , to be a Confederacie against the trueth ; and ye affirme , that ye labour with men , to joine with you in sincerity , and not through humane feares . Now , reverend Brethren , in the feare of GOD , laying aside all humane feare , we doe sincerely declare , that if we thought your Covenant , in all points agreable to the ●rue●h , we should make no opposition there●o . And we doe heartily wish , that according as ye doe here professe , ●o indeed no man be threatned wi●h worldly terroures , to goe your way . We aim● indeed , at the same end which ye professe , to wit , at the Trueth and purity of Religion , and peace of Church and Kingdom : But we are not as yet perswaded , that your way is lawfull and convenient , for attaining to this end . The II. DUPLY. VVE desire al troubles to be prevented by allowable means , but are not perswaded to reckon in that number , this your covenanting , and conventions , which we esteeme to have been the occasion of much trouble . As concerning your question , whereunto ye so earnestly require our Answere , to wit , whether we would have received the B●okes of Service and Canons , or used such meanes , as ye have used for avoiding them ? ye shall know , that if we had been of your judgement , concerning those Bookes , we would neither have received them , nor yet used any meanes unlawfull for opposing of them , ( such we thinke your Covenant and conventions , prohibited by Authority to be , untill we be better informed ) but would have used humble supplication to his majestie , for removing those evills : and if we had found no remeed thereby ▪ would have resolved , according to the practise of ancient Christians , either to ●●ee his Majesties dominions , or else patiently to suffer what●oever punishment it should have pleased him to ins●ict . In the meane time , concerning those Bookes of Service and Canons , we rest content with his Majesties gracious Proclamation : and if hereafter our opinion of them shall be asked by Authority , we shall sincerely and unpartially deciare it . 2. Your urging of us again , with the saying of KING Iames , for●eth us to manifest his meaning by his own words , perhaps contrary to your wish or expectation . That most wise and religio●s KING , neare the beginning of his Booke , concerning the Powder Treason , writeth expresly , that such a rising up of the bodie , pro aris , & focis , & pro patre patriae , ought to be according to every ones calling and facultie . Which words at least doe import , that the moving of the Politick body , in whole , or in par● , ought not to be against the will & direction of the head . This is cleare by that which the same KING hath written in his Booke entituled , The true Law of free Monarchies , whereby many strong Arguments , he doeth a● length demonstrate , that in a free Monarchie , ( such he proveth this his ancient Kingdom of Scotland to be ) the Subjects for no occasion or pretext whatsoever , may take Armes , without power from the KING ; and much lesse against him , whether he be a good KING , or an oppressour ; whether godlie , or ungodlie ; although the People have might and strength humane . And comprehendeth the sum of all his discourse concerning this matter , in these words following . Shortlie , then , to take up in two or three sentences , grounded upon all these Arguments , out of the Law of GOD , the duety and alleadge●nce of the People to their lawfull KING : their obedience , I say , ought to be to him , as to GODS Lievtenant in Earth , obeying his commands in all things , except directly against GOD , as the commands of GODS Minister ; acknowledging him a judge set by GOD over them , having power to judge them , but to be judged onely by GOD , whome to onely he must give count of his judgement . Fearing him , as their judge ; loving him as their Father ; praying for him , as their Protector ; for his continuance , if he be good ; for his amendement , if he be wicked ; following and obeying his lawfull commands , eschewing and fleeing his furie in his unlawfull , without resistance , but by sobbes and teares to GOD , according to that sentence used in the primitive Church in the time of the persecution , Preces & lachrymae , sunt arma Ecclesia : that is , Prayers and Tears , are the armes of the Church . 3. Ye told us before , and now againe doe repeat it , that the first par● of the Act of Parliament 1585 , is relative to another Act in Queen Maries time , forbidding Bands of Manrent . We knew that sufficiently before ye told it , and passed by that part of your Answere , as not percinent for our Argument : so that ye needed not now againe , to put us in minde of it . But we may justly challenge you , for not answering that which we objected , concerning the second part of that Act ; for it reacheth farther , then that Act made in Queen Maries time , and of new statuteth and ordaineth , That in time comming , no Leagues or Bands be made amongst his Majesties Subjects of any degree , upon whatsoever colour or pre●ence , without his Highnesse or his successoures privity and consent , had and obtained thereto ; under the pai●e to be holden and exe●ute as movers of sedition and unquyetnesse , &c. Whereunto also is consonant the 131. Act made in the 8 Parliament of King JAMES the sixt , Anno 1584 ; where it is ●●atuted and ordained by the KING and his three estates , that none of his Highnesse Subjects of whatsoever quality , estate , or function they be of , spirituall or temporall , presume or take upon hand to convocate , conveane , or assemble themselves together for holding of Councells , Conventions , or Assemblyes , to treat , consult , and determinate in any matter of estate , Civill or Ecclesiasticall ( except in the ordinary judgements ) without his Majesties speciall commandement , or expres licence had and obtained to that effect , under the pai●es ordained by the Lawes and Acts of Parliament , against such as unlawfully convocate the KINGS Liedges . And whereas ye finde fault , that we dispute from the Act of Parliament , and that we doe precisely adheare to the letter of the Law , we pray you to consider , that the nature of this question leadeth us to the Act of Parliament . Beside , it seemeth strange , that ye should challenge us in this kinde , since for justifying of your union ( as ye call it ) ye have amassed a great number of Acts o● Parliament , and inserted them in the booke of your Covenant . We omit the misapplying of these Acts , which were made against Popery , and not against all these things , which ye doe now resist as Popish . Neither can we perceive , how these Acts of Parliament adduced by you , to justisie your union , prove that point . Moreover , some of these Acts cited by you , as namely , the 114 Act made in Parliament Anno 1592 , in so farre as it is against Episcopall Government , and all other of that sort , are expresly rescinded by a poste●ior Act made in Parliament Anno 1612. How could ye in a legall dispute , for justifying your union , produce rescinded Acts , as if they were standing Lawes , and passe by the posterior Acts , which are yet Lawes standing in vigour , whereby these other Acts are rescinded ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i. e. Constitutiones tempore posteriores , po●●ores sunt his qu● ipsas praecesserunt . ●● ▪ de constitutionibus Principum , L. 4. 4. We doe adheare in our former Replye , not onely to the Letter , but also ( according to our conception , without prejudice of better information ) to the very reason and life of the Law. The sentence cited by you , to wit , Salus Reipub. suprema lex esto , or the safety of the Common-Wealth should be the chiefe Law , serveth for a good direction to Rulers , in making or changing of Lawes , or in judging according to them : whence in the Lawes of the 12 Tables , these words are applied to this purpose . This is observed by KING Iames of blessed memory , in his often mentioned Book of the true Law of free Monarchies : For albeit , sayeth he , that I have at length proved , that the KING is above the Law , as both the author and giver of strength thereto ; yet a good King will not onely delyte to rule his Subjects by the Law but even will conforme himself in his own actions thereunto , alwayes keeping that ground , that the health of the cōmon-Wealth be his chiefe Law. And where he seeth the Law doubtsome , or rigorous , he may interpret or mitigate the same , lest otherwise summum jus be summa injuria : But this sentence doth nowayes warrand Subjects to refuse obedience to standing Lawes , against the will of the Supream Law-giver , who is a speaking Law. For this were to open a doore to all confusion , which would not prove the safety , but the ruine of the Common-Wealth . As for that which ye said before of the Generall Band , and Confession of Faith , and which here again ye doe alleadge for your Covenant , we have signified our opinion thereof , in our preceeding Duply . The responses and verdicts of Juris-Consults concerning your Covenant , are not known to ●s , nor yet the reasons and inducements , which moved them to give out their declaration in your favoures , as ye alleadge . Of Obedience , due by Subjects , to Authoritie . 5. The point touching Royall Authority , is not so full of thorns and rocks as ye give out , if men would be pleased unpartially to hold the plain and patent way , laide before us by holy Scripture , and by Orthodox Antiquity , and by many Eminent Divines in the reformed Church , and learned Politicks ; which we shall here make manifest , after the vindication of those three famous Theologues , ( Whitaker , Bilson , and Rivet ) whom ye would have the Reader to esteem favourers of your opinion . 6. Doctor Whitakers words against William Raynold , translated into English , out of the Latine Edition at Oppenheme , Anno 1612. Pag. 51. are these , He relateth the timults and troubles , which were raised for Religion , in Germany , France , and Boheme : as if that one thing were sufficient to condemne them , because once they did oppose themselves , and resisted the violence offered to GODS Trueth , and to themselves : Whereas notwithstanding , Fayth , Oath , and publicke Edicts , & finally the Lawes themselves gave them warrand to doe the same . I will not say more of this matter , which is nowise pertinent to the present purpose , especially seeing not onely their just Apologie , but also the Edicts of the Princes themselves have liberated them from the crime of Rebellion . By these words of Doctor Whitaker , which ye have cited , the Reader may easily perceive , that he doth nowayes mantain or allowe taking of Armes by Subjects , without warrand of the publick Lawes , and approbation of the Prince ; but excuseth what was done in those warres , by the allowance of the Lawes and Edicts of Princes . 7. So also Doctor Bilson , in his Book entituled , The true differēce betwixt Christian subjection , and unchristian Rebellion , Printed at Oxford Anno 1585 , Pag. 382. in the wordes cited by you , declareth evidently , that he speaketh of such Republickes and States , as have defences warranded by fundamentall Covenant , in that Government . But what is that Doctors minde , concerning the duetie of Subjects , in a free and absolute Monarchy , is evident by his own words in that same book , Pag. 380 , where disputing against a Jesuit , he sayeth ; Warre for the Catholick Religion , is both lawfull and honourable , you say : you must adde , of the Subjects against their Prince , or else you range cleane besides our question . We strive not what causes may lead Christian Princes to make Warre on their Neighboures , but whether it be lawfull or tollorable for the Subject , to beare Armes against his naturall and absolute Prince . You prove , which is nothing to our purpose . But , Sir , in this enterprize , the person must b● respected as well as the cause : Be the cause never so just , if the person be not authorized by GOD to draw the Sword , they be no just nor lawfull Warres . Private men may not venter on Warres , unlesse they be directly warranded by him that hath the Sword from GOD. And again in that same Book , Pag. 502 , Our Saviour for teaching his , that they should be brought before Kings and Rulers , and put to death , and hated of all men for His Name sake : addeth not , as you would have it , and he that first rebelleth , but , he that endureth to the end , shall be saved ; and again , Not with violence restrain them , but in patience prossesse your own souls . This is the way for all Christian subjects to conquer tyrants ▪ & this is the remedy provided in the new Testamēt against all persecutions , not to ●esist powers , which GOD hath ordained , lest we be damned : but with al meeknes to suffer that we may be crowned . And Pag. 513. he showe●h , that manifold formes of Common-wealthes , make diverse men speake diversly of the Magistrats sword . And Pag. 518 he pleadeth , that the Subjects in England , have not that lawfull warrand , to draw the sword without consent of their Prince , as the Germans have without consent of the Emperour ; and this discourse he prosecuteth in ●ome following pages . 8. The same is the meaning of Doctor R●vet , ( as we take it ) in his commentarie upon the Psalm . 68. where he distinguisheth between an absolute principality , and such a principality as is only conditionall , pactionall , conventionall . Of this second sort are to be understood , his words of just and necessary defence . But of the absolute principality speaking in that same place , he recommendeth to Subjects , rather suffering of martyrdome . And this to be his meaning , appeareth more clearly by his last declaration concerning this question , in his late treatise entituled , Iesuita Vapula●s : where being pressed by an advesary , he handleth this question of purpose . In the mean time , we wonder very much , that ye have not directly answered to these remarkable wordes of Doctor Rivet , alleadged by us in our Reply , wherein he plainly averreth , that the doctrine of Bu●han●●● , Knox , and Goodman , concerning Subjects resisting their lawfull Princes , is not approved by any sound Protestant . We expected from you , a full and particular Answere , and now againe we would gladly heare , whether ye approve the judgement of Rivet , concerning that doctrine of these writers , or not . 9. Thus having vindicated these three divynes , which ye alleadge for you , we come now to those testimonies which we promised , for clearing of the plainness of the way touching Authority . First , it is evident by holy Scripture , that it is unlawfull for Subjects in a Monarchicall estate , ( such as is this Kingdom of Scotland ) to take Armes for Religion , or for any other pretence , without warrand and power from the Prince , and Supreame Migistrate . For the Scripture teacheth us , that the Sword belongeth onely to the KING , and to them who are sent by him , Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. 13. 14. That we ought to keep the KINGS commandement , and that in regarde of the Oath of GOD , Eccles. 8. 2. And , that we should be subject , not only for wrath but also for conscience sake ; because the powers that be , are ordained of GOD : whosoever therefore , sayeth S. Paul , resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of GOD , And they that resist , shall receive to themselves damnation , Rom. 13. In the words of the Apostle S. Paul , there is a remarkable opposition betwixt subjection and resistance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; implying , that all militarie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whether defensive , or offensive , if it be against the superiour Power , which GOD hath set over us , is forbidden . In like manner we reade Matth. 26. 52. that all they that take the Sword , shall perish with the Sword. Now certaine it is , that in a free Monarchie , Subjects have not the Sword from GOD , except by the hand of the KING , to whom only GOD hath immediately given it . And therefore whosoever taketh the Sword without his warrand , hath just reason to feare the foresaid warning of our SAVIOVR . Many other places of Scripture might be adduced to this purpose , which for brevity we omit , and doe proceed in the next rowme to some testimonies of ancient Fathers , and other writers . 10. T●rtullian , in his Apologeticke , chap. 30. and 33. and 37. telleth vs , that the ancient Christians in his time , although having a● heathen and persecuting Emperour , did honour him , as chosen of God , and second from GOD , and first after GOD , and did choose rather to suffer , then to make resistance by force of Armes , although they lacked not number , and strength to doe it . 11. The like example have we in that renowned Thebean Legion of 6666 Christian Souldiers , called Agaunenses , from the place of their suffering , who without making resistance , as they had strength of hand to have done , suffered themselves rather to be slain , for their Christian profession , by the Officers of Maximian the Emperour , executors of his cruell commandement against them . This fell out in the 18 yeare of Diocletian , as Ado Viennensis writeth in his Chronicle , which was the yeare of GOD 297 , as Cardinall Baronius reckoneth in his Annalls . And of that their Christian cowrage , and pious resolution , Venantius Fortunatus , an ancient Bishop of Poictiers , hath left unto us these Encomiasticke lynes , in the second book of his Poems ▪ Biblioth . Patr. Tom. 8. Edit . 4. Pag. 781. Queis , positis gladiis , sunt armaè dogmate Pauli , Nomine pro CHRISTI dulcius esse mori . Pectore belligero poterant qui vincere ferro , Invitant jugulis vulnera chara suis. 12. Gregorie Nazianzen , in his first Oration , speaking of the persecution by Iulian the Apostate , when the Christians were moe in number , and stronger in might of hand , to have made open resistance , if they had in their consciences found it agreable to their Christian profession , declareth plainly , that they had no other remedy against that persecution , but patient suffering for Christ , with gloriation in Christ. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 13. S. Ambrose , having received imperiall commandement , to deliver the sacred Houses , or Churches , to be possessed by the Arians , declareth what he thought convenient to be done in such a case ; to w●t , neither to obey in that which he could not performe with a good conscience , no● yet to resist by force of Armes . His wordes to the people , ( Con●ione 1. contra Auxentium ) are these ; a Why , then , are ye troubled ? I shall never willingly leave you . If I be compelled , I can not gain-stand . I may be sory , I may weep , I may sigh . Against Armes , Souldiers , the Gothes also , my Teares are Armes : For such are the Guardes of a Priest. Otherwise I neither ought nor may resist . And in the second book of his Epistles , and 14 Epistle , to his Sister Marcellina , speaking of that same purpose , he sayeth ; b I shall not fortifie my selfe with a multitude of people about me . — We beseech , O Emperour , we fight not . — I may not deliver the Church ; but I ought not make resistance . 14. Such also was thē doctrine and practise of many other great Lights , which shined in the dayes of Iulian the Apostate , and in the dayes of the Arrian Emperoures , and Gothicke Arrian Kings . 15. S. Augustine , writing of a lawfull Warre , acknowledgeth that only to be lawfull , which hath authority from the Prince . For it is much to be regarded , ( sayeth he ▪ ) for what causes , and by whose authority , men undertake Warres : But that naturall order , which is accommodated to the peace of mortall men , requireth this , that the authority and counsell of undertaking warre , be in the power of the Prince . 16. The imperiall Lawes doe say the same , ff . Ad legem Iuliam majestatis . Leg. 3. Eadem lege tenetur , & qui injussu Principis bellum gesserit , delectumv● habuerit , ex●rcitum comparaverit . Et Cod. ut armorum usus inscio Principe interdictus sit . Nulli prorsus nobis insciis , atque inconsultis quorum libet armorum movendorum copia tribuatur . These are the words of the Emperoures Valentinian and Valens . Et Cod. de ●e militari , Leg. 13. Nemo miles . Nemo miles vel sibi vacet , vel aliena obsequia ●e nutu principali peragere audeat , &c. 17. Bodin , in his first Book de Republica , Cap. 10. Num. 155 and 156. ( Pag. 244. Edit . Latin. 4. Ursell . Anno 1601. ) reckoneth among the proper rights of Majesty , the right and power to make Warre : and this he showeth to appertain , in a free Monarchie , to the Prince onely . 18. To this meaning sayeth Peter Martyr ; As concerning the efficient cause , it is certain that Warre may not be made without the authority of the Prince . For Paul sayeth , that he beareth the Sword : therefore he may give it to whome he willeth , and may take it from whome he willeth . Loc. Com. Class . 4. Cap. 16. § 2. And a little after , to wit , § 7. he reciteth and commendeth a saying of Hostiensis to the same purpose . 19. Calvin , in the four●h Book of his Institutions , in the last Chapter of that Book , disputeth the Question at length , and by many strong Arguments evinceth , and concludeth , that it is nowise lawfull for Subjects , to resist their Prince by force of Armes ; whether the Prince be godly , and just ; or ungodly , and unjust in his conversation , and commandements : and , that nothing remaineth to Subjects in such a case , but to obey or suffer . Where understand , that Fleing is a sort of Suffering . Neither are his words subjoined in the 31 Sect. to wit , I speake alwise of private men , &c. contrary to this . For first Calvin in this Dispute , indifferently useth the names of private men , and Subjects : And therefore , in the 22 Sect. at the beginning of it , he termeth those of whose duety he disputeth , Subjects . And indeed , whosoever is a Subject , is also , in respect of the supream Ruler , a private man. Although Magistrats , who are under the KING , be publick persons , in respect of their Inferiours ; yet being considered , with relation to him that is Supream , 1. Pet. 2. 13. they are but private . As in Dialecticke , an intermediate genus , although in respect of the inferiour species , it be a genus ; yet in relation to the superiour genus , it is but a species . All Power of Governing , is so subjected to the Supream Power , that whatsoever is done against the will of the supream Ruler , is destitute of that Power ; and consequently , is to be esteemed for a private act . For , as we are taught by the Philosophers , Order can not be , but with a reference to that which is first . Hence King JAMES , in his Book of The true Law of free Monarchies , Pag. 206. affirmeth , that all the People are but private men , the authority being alwise with the Magistrate . Secondly , this is manifest from the very words of Calvin , in that same 31 Sect. for there he excepteth none from the necessity of obeying , or suffering , when Kings command things unjust ; but onely popular Magistrats , appointed for restraining the licentiousnesse of Kings . Now , where such Magistrats are erected , it is certain , that a King , in such a Common-wealth , hath not the supream power : For if he had the supream power , none could force him , since an Inferiour can not force his Superiour . This can not be done , but onely by him , who is Superiour , or at least equall . Thirdly , this is clear also by the examples adduced by Calvin ; namely , the Lacedamonian Ephori , the Roman Tribunes , and the Athenian Demarchi . When the Ephori were set up in Lacedaemon , the Kings of Lacedaemon , were but Kings in name , and had not the Supream power , as it is confessed by the Learned . So when the Tribunes had their full power in Rome , the Supream power was in the People : and in like manner it was in Athens , when the Demarchi had power . Therefore , from this nothing can be inferred for the lawfull resistance of Subjects , to a Monarch , or King , properly so called . Fourthly , Calvin applying this to the Kingdomes that now are , sayeth no more , but that peradventure the three Estates assembled in Parliament , have that same power , which the fore-mentioned Ephori , &c. had . Here it is to be marked , that he sayeth onely , peradventure it is so ; which can be no warrand to a mans conscience , in a matter of so great importance . For he that resisteth his Superiour by force of Armes , should not onely thinke , that peradventure he hath power , but should be assuredly perswaded , that he hath power so to doe . When there is no more said , but that peradventure such a thing is , it may be as reasonablie said , Peradventure such a thing is not . Neither doeth he give this power even peradventure , but to the three Estates assembled in Parliament . Hence the learned Rivet , speaking of Calvin his minde in this place , sayeth , that he giveth no power to people over Monarchs , properly so called ▪ The same also is observed , concerning Calvin his minde , by Albericus Gentilis , in his third Royal Dispute . 20. The same doctrine also is delivered by King Iames of blessed Memory , in his Book entituled The true Law of free Monarchies , by Hugo Grotius in his first Book de jure belli & pacis , Cap. 4. by Leonhartus Hutterus , in his common places , Loc. 32. Cap. 3. Iohannes Gerhardus in the 6 Tom. of his cōmon places , in his Treatise de mastistratu politico , Num. 483. where he discourseth accuratly of this matter : Zepperus in his 3. Book de Politia Ecclesiastica , in the last Section of the 13 Chapter , Pag 573. Edit . Herborn . 1595. Alberious Gentilis , in his regall disputations , disput . 3. de vi civium in Regem semper in●usta . Iohn Bishop of Rochester , in his work written against Bellarmine , de potestate Papae in rebus temporalibus , Lib. 1. Cap. 8. Class . 2. Where he adduceth a clowd of many moe Authors . M. Antonius de Dominis , in his Book called Ostensio errorum Prancisci Suarez , Cap. 6. § 27. Iohannes Angelius Werdenhagen , I. C. in his Politica generalis , Lib. 3. Cap. 10. Quest. 14. 21. By these Testimonies we intend not to lay upon you , or any of our Country men , any imputation , or to take upon us to give sentence concerning their proceedings : but onely being invited hereto by your last Answeres , we thought it our duety , to signifie to the Reader , that many ancient and late famous Writters are not of that opinion , either to think the question touching Authority , so full of Rocks and Thorns , as you call it , or yet to favour such a defensive taking of Armes , as you think to be allowed by Whitaker , Bilson , and Rivet . 22. Now to prosecute what remaineth of your Answere : whereas ye say , that when ye justifie your Covenants and Conventions , from their purposed ends , ye meane not onely the last and most remo●e ●nds , but the nearest and immediate ; we pray you tell us what ye meane by the nearest and immediate end : if ye meane the object it it selfe , ( which the Schoole-men call finem intrinsecum & proximum ) then the lawfulnesse and equity of the matter , vowed and promised in the Covenant , is all one with the goodnesse of the end of it . Whence we inferre , that seeing the matter promised by you in this your Covenant , to wit , your mutuall defence against all persons , none excepted , is in our judgement unlawfull , and forbidden by a lawfull Authority ; the end , of your Covenant is meerly evill : but if by the nearest end ye meane any thing which is diverse from the object , then we still affirme against the last part of your first Answere , to our second Demand , that Conventions , and Covenants , and all other actions , are to be esteemed and judged of , first or principally by the equity of the object , and then by the goodnesse of the ends of it , whether they be fines proximi , or fines remoti . 23. We doe not joyne with the Papists , blamers of our Reformation , ( as ye seeme to beare upon us ) because they hate and oppugne our reformed Religion , which we love and defend . Neither doe we take upon us to censure the proceedings of our Reformers : but we stryve , by the Grace of GOD , so to carry in our own time , and to walke wisely in a perfect way , as our adversaries the Papistes , may get no advantage to pleade for their unwarrantable doctrine and practises , by any pretence of our example . The III. DUPLY. IN your third Answere , passing lightly from our Reply , ye fall into some unexpected digressions , concerning the Service Book and our thoughts thereof : we esteeme it a matter beyond the compass of humane judicatory , to sit upon the thoughts of other men . As for those outward expressions , which ye alleadge upon some of us , of not seeing erroures in that Book , or groaning for it ; ye shall understand , that such multiplicity of Popish erroures , as was alleadged by some of you , to be in that Book , was invisible to some of us . Although to enter in a particular examination or cōsideration , of every poynt and sentence in that Book , is not now time nor place . Neither did any of us professe groaning for that Book in particular , but for an uniformity of divyne service throughout this Nationall Kirk , and a more perfect forme then we yet have , that the publick Service were not permitted to the severall judgements , and private choise of every Minister and Reader . Which also was thought convenient by the Nationall Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland , holden at ABERDENE , Anno 1616. 2. Whether that Service Book ( now discharged ) containeth any Innovation of Religion , or any thing contrary to the Protestant Religion , ( as ye alleadge ) we doe not dispute now . But we doe assuredly believe , the piety and sincerity of His Majesties intention , ever to have been , and still constantly to be , as it is graciously declared by His Majesties late Proclamation . And we are certainly perswaded ▪ that His Majesty hath given order , to discharge all the Acts of Counsell , made anent the Canons and Service Book ; and are credibly informed , that they are discharged by Act of Counsell , [ at Holy-Rood-House , the fifth of Iullie last ] according to the order given by His Majesty . Also , we see no such just cause of Fear , as may import your alleadged necessity of Covenanting ; seeing His Majesty will not presse any thing of that nature , but in such a faire and legall way , as shall satisfie all his loving Subjects : that he neither intendeth innovations in Religion nor Lawes ; as we declare in our former Replye , to which ye have not sufficiently answered . Neither was it necessary , for removing of any just Feares , that his sacred Majesty should disallowe that Service Book , as ye require ; but it was sufficient , to discharge it , in manner foresaid . 3. Ye doe conclude your Answere unto our third Replye , with an uncouth and incredible Position , whereof ye bring no proofe at all , but onely this bare Assertion ; Whosoever professe themselves , to bee perfectly satisfied with the Proclamation , doe proclaime in the ears of all the Kingdom , that they are better pleased with the Service Book , and Canons , then with the Religion , as it hath been professed in this Land since the Reformation . This your Thesis , is so evidently weak , that we need no more for the over-throw thereof , but to oppose thereunto this our playn and undenyable Antithesis ; Who professe themselves to be perfectly satisfied with that Proclamation , whereby the Service Book , and Canons are discharged , and the Religion professed in this Land since the Reformation , is established , doe proclaime in the ears of all the Kingdom , that they are better pleased with the Religion professed in this Land since the Reformation , then with the Service Book , and Canons . The IV. DUPLY. YE● alleadged before , and now again doe affirme , that we have mistaken your Interpretation of the old Covenant , as if it had been given out judicially by you , and , as if ye had intended to enforce it upon others . To free your selves of this imputation , ye said in your first Answere , that ye intended onely To make knowne your own meaning according to the mynde our Reformers , and in charity to recommend it to others . Hence we inferred in our Replye , that ye ought nor to obtrude your Interpretation upon us , nor molest any man for not receiving the same . To this now ye say in your second Answere ; Although you neither use threatnings , nor obtrude your Interpretation upon us , yet we must pardon you , if ye match us not with the greatest part of this Kingdom , in whose name , by all fair meanes ye recommend it to us . Truely , Brethren , we are not offended with you , for preferring the judgement of so many , to our judgement , who are but few in number : neither need ye to crave pardon of us for this . But concerning these faire meanes , and that force of reason whereby , ye say , ye recommend your Interpretation of the old Covenant to us , pardon us , if the experience we have , both of your writings and proceedings , make us to oppose this your assertion . For in your writings we expected indeed , but have not found that force of reason , whereof ye speake : and as for the proceedings of those who have subscrived your Covenant , we of all men have least reason to believe that they use no threatnings , seeing we hear daylie so much their threatnings against our selves . 2. Whereas for clearing of that which ye said before , concerning the minde of our reformers , ye affirme , that The authoritative judgement of our reformers is evident , not only by the confession of Faith ratified in Parliament , but also by the books of Discipline , Acts of Generall Assemblies , and by their own writes : First , we marvell , how ye can say , that the private writings of Master Knox , and others , who with him were instruments of that great worke of Reformation , have publicke Authority to obliedge the Subjects of this Kingdom . The legislative , and obligatory power of the Church , is only in Synods or conventions of Bishops and Presbyters , and not in particular persons expressing their minds apart . Next , this Church in the former age , by abrogating the office of Superintendants , established in the first book of Discipline , hath declared , that the statuts and ordinances contained in those books , are not of an authority perpetually obligatory , but may be altered or abrogated by the Church , according to the exigencie of tyme. The same likewise is manifest by the abrogation of summary excomunication , which this Church did abolish , although it was established in Generall Assemblies , wherein Master Knox , and other Reformers were present . We need not to insist much in this , seeing so many of you , who are Subscribents , mis-regard the ordinances of our Reformers , prefixed to the Psalm Book , concerning the office of Superintendants , or Bishops , Funerall Sermons , and set formes of Prayer , which they appointed , to be publickly read in the Church . Hence the Reader may perceive , that ye have no warrand for your Interpretation of the old Covenant , from the authoritative , and obligatory judgement , of the Reformers ; feeing ye can not ground it upon the Confession of Faith ratified in Parliament . As for those other meanes mentioned by us , to wit , Scripture , Antiquitie , and consent of the re●ormed Churches , that they truly make for us , and against you , the unpartiall Reader may perceive by these our Disputs . Whether or not Episcopacie and Pearth Articles , be abjured in the late Covenant . 3. As for the second mistaking mentioned by you in your Answere , we did show in our Replye , that in your Covenant , Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , are abjured . And for proving of this , we asked of you , what ye meaned by the recovery and liberty of the Gospell , as it was established and professed before the foresaid Novations ? and what is that period of tyme , to which your words there have reference ? that is , Whether it be that period of time , when the Service Book , and Book of Canons , were urged upon you ? or if it be the time , when Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , were received in this Church ? But , truely , your Answere to this , is nowise satisfactory , nor hath so much as a show of satisfaction . For ye are afraid to expresse that period of time , lest ye beforced to grant , that which we before objected . And yet your speach bewrayeth you : For seeing ye answere onely to that which we said concerning the last of these two periods , we collect , that by the recovery of the liberty and purity of the Gospell , as it was established before the fore-said Novations , ye mean the reducing of the Policy of this Church , unto that estate in which it was , before Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , were established . And hence we inferre , as we did before , that in that part of your Covenant , ye condemne and abjure Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , as contrary to the Purity and Liberty of the Gospell . 4. Ye seeme to answere , that in that part of your Covenant , ye condemne not , Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , but those abuses & corruptions , which have accompanyed them ; such as the Superstitious observing of dayes , cessation from work on those dayes , Feasting , Guysing , and the grosse abuses , which have entered in the Sacramēt , upon kneeling before the Elements : and , that in respect of these abuses , we who allow Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , may sweare without prejudice of our cause , to recover the Purity and Liberty of the Gospell , as it was established , and professed , before these Novations . 5. But , first , let any indifferent , or unpartiall man , who knoweth the state of our Church , judge , whether or not it be lykely , that your Vowe , of the recovering the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell , as it was before Episcopacy , and Pearth Articles , were introduced , importeth onely an intention of removing of the consequents of Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , and not of the removing of those things themselves ? Truely we are perswaded , that they who know the state of this Church , and your mind , concerning these things , will think this your Glosse of your own words , to be violent , and excogitated for eluding our Argument . 6. Secondly : Who can thinke , that ye , and others , contryvers of the late Covenant , who condemne P●arth Articles , and Episcopacie , as much as ye doe the consequents of them , have only vowed , to remove their consequents , and not remove themselves ? 7. Thirdly , is it possible , that any can promise and vow , to labour for the curing of so many , and so great pretended deseases of this Church , ( we meane these abuses which ye say , have accompanyed Pearth Articles and Episcopacie , ) and in the mean time promise , and intend nothing concerning the removing of the causes of them ? 8. Fourthly , how can we , without great prejudice of our cause , acknowledge , that these grosse abuses mentioned by you , have entred in the Sacrament , by kneeling before the Elements ( ye should have said at the receiving of the Elements ) for seeing kneeling at the receiving of the Sacrament , is confessed by us to be a matter indifferent ; if in our Oath , we acknowledge these grosse abuses to have entred in upon kneeling , it will probably follow in the judgement of some , and in our judgement , who recommend this Oath unto us , it will follow infallibly , that kneeling for the evill consequences thereof , ought to be removed . Doe ye not here cunningly deale with us ? For although ye urge us not , as ye say , to sweare and promise the removing of kneeling , yet ye urge us , by your own confession , to promise the removing of these abuses occasioned by kneeling : which being acknowledged by us , ye will then take upon you to demonstrate , that kneeling it selfe ought to be removed : for ye hold it for a Maxime , that things indifferent , being abused and polluted with Superstition , should be abolished . We cannot sufficiently marvell , how yee who are of this minde , can say to us , that we who allow Pearth Articles and Episcopacie , may sweare to recover the liberty and purity of the Gospell , as it was before , &c. For ye meane , that we may doe so , without prejudice of our cause . But we have already shown , that according to your judgement and doctrine , if we sweare that which ye would have us to sweare , our cause shall be much prejudged , yea , utterly lost . 9. Fiftly : How can we sweare , to remove those grosse abuses entered in upon kneeling , as ye alleadge ; seeing we thinke , that no such abuses have entered in upon it ? Yea , our People , try them who please , will show , that they are as free from all erronious conceits , concerning that holy Sacrament , as any living in these Congregations where kneeling is daylie cryed down . 10. Sixtlie , as for these abuses and corruptions , reckoned up by you , as the consequents of the observation of Festivall dayes ▪ to pass by that which before we marked concerning Kneeling , to wit , that the granting of this were a great prejudice to our cause , some of these are not abuses at all , as , cessation from work . Again , some of them have not come in upon the observation of the Articles of Pearth , as Guysing , and Feasting , ( ye mean excessive Feasting , for otherwise it is not an abuse ) which onely fall forth on Christmas Festivitie . For sure we are , that these abuses have not come by the anniversary commemoration of CHRISTS Nativitie , in the which by the ordinance of Pearth Assembly , all Superstitions observation , and Prophanation of that day , or any other day , is prohibited , and appoynted to be rebuked . This the reverend and learned Bishop of Edinburgh , in his defence of the Act of Pearth Assembly , concerning Festivities , Pag. 63. proveth , because ( sayeth he ) we have lacked preaching upon Christ-mas-day , these fifty seven years bygone , in our Church , yet Ryot , Prophannesse , Surfet , and Drunkennesse , have not beene wanting . 11. Seventhly , as for Superstitious observation of dayes , ( whereof hitherto we have had no experience ) we marvell , that ye can reckon it , amongst the consequents of the observation of dayes : seeing in your judgement , it is all one with the observation of dayes . For ye think the observation of any day , except the LORDS Day , to be , in the own nature of it , Superstitious , and Will-worship . 12. As for the last part of your Answere to our Argument , concerning the foresaid period of time ; where ye alleadge , that many corruptions of Popish and Arminian doctrine , have entered in the Kirke , &c. we aske you , Whether ye designe here another period of time , then ye did before ? or if ye design onely this self same period of time , in the which both the foresaid practicall abuses , and these Doctrinall corruptions , have entered into this Church , accompanying , as ye alleadge , Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy ? ) Or , last of all , If ye design no period of time at all ? If ye take you to this last , professing , that ye have here designed no period of time ; then ye answere not our Argument , wherein we particularly , and expresly posed you , concerning that period of time , unto which your words cited oft before , have reference . If ye design the same period of time , then look how ye can escape our preceeding Arguments , concerning that period of time . 13. But if ye design an other period of time , then we aske you , Whether it be prior or posterior , to the period of time already mentioned ; to wit , the time preceeding the bringing in of the Articles of Pearth ? Ye can not say , that it is posterior to it : for ye complained of Arminian corruptions , even before Pearth Assembly ; branding some of the most learned of our Church , with that Aspersion . And of Popish corruptions of Doctrine , ye complained , when Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy were established . For the Doctrins , of the lawfulnesse and expediency of these things , are , in your judgement , meerly Popish , and Antichristian . Neither can ye say , that it is prior to the foresaid period of time : for the time preceeding the inbringing of Pearth Articles , comprehendeth all that tract of time which interveened betwixt the Reformation , and Pearth Assembly . 14. But we will yet more evidently convince you , by two other Arguments , drawn from that part of your Covenant , of which we are now speaking , and from the words of this your Answere to our fourth Replye ; for first in your Covenant ye promise , and also will have us to promise with you , To forbeare for a time , the practise of Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed , as ye say , in a free Assembly . But this ●orbearance importeth a manifest prejudice , and wronging of our cause : for this is a fore-acknowledgement , either of the unlawfulnesse , or else of the inexpediency of the matters , concluded in Pearth Assembly . For wherefore ought we in this exigence of the Church , to forbear the practise of Pearth Articles , rather then of other Rites of the Church , except for some greater evill comprehended in them ? This will appear more evident , if we shall consider the reason alleadged by you , Pag. 17 , wherefore we ought now to forbear the practise of these Articles : to wit , because in the case of Scandall , and sensible fear of Superstition , we ought to doe so . Now this case of Scandall is not in your judgement , a temporary , but a perpetuall consequent of Pearth Articles . For ye think it will ever Scandalize the Papists , as if we were approaching to them : Likewise ye think every one of them , and especially Kneeling , to be inductive to sinne , ex conditione operis , by the very nature and quality of the work it self . Whence it followeth , that they are necessarily and immutablie scandalous ; for whatsoever agreeth to any thing , in respect of the nature of it , it agreeth necessarily and immu●ably . If therefore we in this respect , swear the forbearance of Pearth Articles , we shall be holden to forbear Pearth Articles , not for a time , but for ever . 15. Next , we pray you consider , what is meaned by the foresaid Novations , in that part of your Covenant , wherein ye promise to labour to recover the liberty and purity of the Gospell , as it was before the foresaid Novations . Certainly these words cannot be understood of Novations to be introduced , and which have not as yet entred unto our Church . For the liberty and purity of the Church is not as yet lost , yea , not impared by them , and so needeth not to be recovered by the removing of them . They must then be understood of the Novations mentioned in the Paren●hesis of your Covenant ; that , is of all innovations already introduced by Authority , and their alleadged consequents , which ye promise to forbeare , untill they be allowed , and tryed by a free Assembly . Hence any man may conclude , that although in your Parenthesis , ye promise only to forebeare these Novations for a time , yet in the words immediatly following , ye condemne and abjure them . For the recovering of the liberty and purity of the Gospell , as it was established before the foresaid Novations , importeth manifestly a removing of all these Novations , which either in themselves , or in respect of their consequents , are contrary to the purity and liberty of the Gospell . But all Novations already introduced , are in your judgement of this kinde , and therefore your vow , of the recovering the liberty and purity of the Gospell , importeth a removing of all the foresaid Novations . 16. To conclude this Argument : Ye may see , that we have pryed no more narrowly into the expressions of your Covenant , then we had reason ; and have laboured , not to scarre our selves , and others , with meere shadowes , as ye affirme . Of our Argument , Ad hominem , and the weak Retorsion of it , by the Answeres . 17. Now we come to our Argument , or Syllogisme , Ad hominem , which hath so pinched you , that ye have not attempted to answer● to any of the propositions of it . Our intention in that Argument , was to prove , that whether Pearth Articles be abjured in the late Covenant , or not ; yet ye [ who came hither , to give us satisfaction concerning the Covenant ] can not , with a safe conscience , averre , or declare to us , that they are not abjured in it . This we did evidently prove , reasoning thus : Whatsoever Rites are abjured in the old Covenant , they are also , in your judgment , abjured in the late Covenant . But Pearth Articles , and Episcopocie , are , in your judgement , abjured in the old Covenant : Ergo , they are , in your judgement , abjured in the late Covenant : and , consequently , if ye deale sincerely with us , ye must averre , that they are also abjured in the late Covenant . 18. To this ye say , first , that whatsoever be your judgement , as ye are particular persons , yet , at this time , ye were to be taken , as Commissioners from the whole company of Subscrivers . Truely we did take you so ; and did think , that ye who were Commissioners from such a multitude of good Christians , would have tolde us your minde sincerely , concerning the full extent of the late Covenant ; and , that ye would neither have affirmed any thing as Commissioners , which ye doe not think to be true , as ye are particular persons ; nor yet would have laboured , so to insnare us , as to have bidden us subscrive a Covenant , really , and indeed , in your judgement , abjuring those things , which we , with a safe conscience , can not abjure . For , in your judgement , Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , are most really abjured in the late Covenant , although ye plainly affirme the contrary , in your Answeres to our fourth , fifth , and sixth Demand . And ( which is much to be noted ) in your Answeres to our tenth Demand , ye affirme , concerning your selves , that ye , in this late Covenant , have promised only forbearance of Pearth Articles . We wonder much , how ye can say so . For whosoever by their Oath have tyed themselves to a Confession , in the which they firmly believe Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , to be abjured , those have indeed abjured Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy . But ye in the late Covenant , have tyed your selves by your Oath , to the little Confession , or old Covenant , in the which ye firmly believe , Episcopacy , and Pearth Articles , to be abjured : Ergo , in your late Covenant ye have abjured Pearth Articles , & Episcopacy : And not only ye , but all those who are of that same minde with you . Whence we inferred , in that tenth Demand , that none of you can vote freely in the intended Assembly , concerning Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie . 19. Secondly , ye say , that if others of the subscribents , who are of our judgement , ( that is , who are not perswaded that Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , are abjured in the old Covenant , ) had come as Commissioners at this time to us , our Argument ad hominem , had beene anticipated , because it would not have been pertinent for them . But ye are deceived , for we have ever looked principally to these , who were the first contryvers of the late Covenant , or had speciall hand in it , that is , to your selves , and to others , who these many years bygone , have opposed Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , as Popish corruptions , abjured in the old Covenant ; and consequently have , in this late Covenant , [ in the which that former Covenant is renewed ] by your own personall Oath , abjured Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie . If then that other sort of Commissioners had come unto us , we would have said to them , that we can not swear the late Covenant , because Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie are in it abjured . And this we would have proved by the like Argument ad hominem , that is , by an Argument grounded upon the judgement of the contrivers of the late Covenant : as ye may easily perceive . 20. Thirdly , ye say , that we have perceived the insufficiencie of our Argument , because we objected this to our selves : that seeing we think Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , not to be abjured in the old Covenant , we may subscrive the new Covenant , in the which that old Covenant is reuewed . Truely ye might have alleadged this , if we had propounded that objection , and had left it unanswered . But we answered it , and brought some reasons [ which ye wisely did passe by , perceiving the force of them ] to show , that we can not conveniently subscrive your late Covenant , notwithstanding of our judgement , of rather opinion of the meaning of the old Covenant . We say opinion : for to speak truely what we thinke , we doubt , and so doe others with us , concerning the meaning of some parts of the old Covenant , touching matters of Ecclesiasticall policy , and have not so full a perswasion in our mindes concerning those parts , as may be to us a warrand of our Oath . 21. Fourthly , whereas ye say , that it was not for us to inquire in your private opinion , concerning the meaning of the late Covenant , in that part of it , where it tyeth us to the inviolable observation of the old Covenant , no● was it necessary for you , to make it known to us ; We answere , that we inquired not your private opinion , but the common judgement of all those , who with you these twenty years bypast , have accused us of Perjury , for the alleadged violation of the old Covenant , sworne by our Predecessours . And truely we had more then reason to doe so ; because we most justly feared , that ye , who have so oft accused us of Perjury , for practising Rites and Ceremonies abjured as ye alleadge , in the old Covenant , sworn by our Predecessours , would much more vehemently ; yea , also with a greater show of probability , accuse us of Perjury , for violation of the old Covenant , sworn and ratified by our selves in this late Covenant , if we should stand to the defence of Pearth Articles in time to come . It became us therefore , for eschewing of this inconvenient , to inquire of you , and you also sincerely and plainly to declare to us , whether or not we may subscrive and sweare the new Covenant , as it includeth and ratifieth the old , and yet be really free from all abjuration , or condemning of Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie ? And likewise whether or not ye , and all others who are of your minde , will hold and esteem us free from abjuration of them , notwithstanding of our subscriving of your Covenant . These Questions require a punctuall Answere . For if our subscriving of your Covenant , may either import a real abjuratiō of Pearth Articles , or if it may make you to think , that by vertue of our subscription , we are really , and indeed , bound to reject them for ever ; neither can we , with a good conscience , subscrive your Covenant ; neither can ye , with a good conscience , require it of us . 22. Fiftly , from our refusing to subscrive the late Covenant , in so far as it reneweth the old Covenant , or little Confession ; because that Confessi● according to your Interpretation , or conception of it , importeth an abjuration of Pearth Articles , ye collect , first , that upon this ground we would not have subscrived the late Confession any time bypast . Secondly , that we can not sweat the Confession of any Church , no , not the Articles of the CREED , Petitions of the LORDS PRAYER , nor Precepts of the ten COMMANDEMENTS , in respect of the diverse Interpretations , which men give of them . We answere , first , that since the little Confession , is not of Divine Authority , and since the Humane Authority which it had , hath these many years bygone ceassed , ( as The Peaceable Warning , lately given to the Subjects in Scotland , proveth ) we would have refused our Subscription unto it , ever since we heard , that it importeth an Abjuration of all Rites , and Ceremonies , which were not received in our Church in the year 1681 ; except we had gotten some evidence to the contrary , sufficiently satisfying our minds . Secondly : As for the Creed , LORDS Prayer , and ten Commandements , your Argument taken from the varietie of mens Expositions of them , is far from the purpose . For , since we are perswaded , that the Author , or Pen-men of them , neither intended , nor yet delivered any thing in them , but Trueth : and that their expression is authentick , we are bound to embrace , and receive them , notwithstanding of the varietie of Interpretations , which men give of them : neither is it lawfull to us , to refuse our Subscription , or assent , to them , whatsoever be the judgement or assent of those who require it of us : being alwise bound to acknowledge the infallible Authority of them , even when we doubt of the true meaning of them . Thirdly : As for any of these later Confessions of Churches , if the case be such , as now it is in this particular of this late Covenant , that is , if we be not bound by any standing Law , to subscrive it , and if it be so lyable to the variety of Interpretatiōs , that it may probablie import that which we think to be contrary to the Trueth , and if these who require our Subscription , be , in our judgement , Opposers of the Trueth , in any point contained in that Confession , and may make advantage of our Subscription , alleadgeing , that we are tyed by it , to consent to their Doctrines , or Practises : we may justly , in such a case , deny our subscription to that Confession , for the ambiguitie of it ; and much more may desire those who urge us to subscrive it , to declare unto us , before we give our Subscription , Whether or not , that Confession , in their judgement , will tye us to their Doctrines and Practises . 23. Last of all : In modestie , as ye say , but with a jesting complement , ye present unto us , a Dish of our own dressing : ye mean , the lyke Argument , Ad hominem ; which is this : The Rites and Ceremonies which are not abjured in the negative Confession , are not abjured in this late Covenant : But the Rites and Ceremonies , which were concluded in Pearth Assembly , are not abjured , as ye say , in the negative Confession , made Ann 1581 ; therefore they are not abjured in this late Covenant . The first Proposition , as ye say , is evident , because in the late Covenant we are bound no farther , concerning the negative Confession , but to keep it inviolable : And therefore , what Rites are not abjured there , are not abjured here . Likewise ye say , that the second Proposition , can no be denyed by us , in respect these twenty years bygone , we have thought our selves free of Perjurie , notwithstanding the of Oath made 1581 , and of our conforming our selves to the Ordinance of Pearth . Good Brethren , ye have retorted this Argument very weakly upon us . For , first , we flatly denye the Major of your Syllogisme ; and withall doe repell the confirmation of it . For although Pearth Articles , were not abjured in the late Covenant , in so far as it reneweth the negative Confession ; yet they may be , and , as it is already proven , they are abjured in that other part of your late Covenant , where ye vow and promise , To recover the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell , as it was established and professed before the foresaid Novations . Next , as for your Minor , or Second Proposition , wee suspend our Judgement of it , untill wee bee better informed and advised : doubting , as we said before concerning the meaning of those parts of the old Covenant , which concerne matters of Rite or Ceremonie . Neither doeth the confirmation of your minor trouble us ; for we have thought our selves free of Perjury these twenty years bygone , not for any certain perswasion which we had , that Pearth Articles are not abjured in the old Covenant ; but because we did not personally swear that Covenant , and are not tyed to it , by the Oath of those who did subscrive it : which we are ready to demonstrate by irrefragable Arguments . Ye see then your Argument retorted upon us , pearceth us not at all : and the Reader , may perceive that our argument hath been so forcibly thrown upon you , that ye have not taken upon you to answere any part of it . If ye had had evidence of the trueth for you , ye would not only have retorted our Argument , but also by answering it punctually , shown , that it straiteth not you : and if ye had been exact Resolvers , ye would not have gone about to have satisfied us with a naked Argument in contrarium . 24. Before we leave this point , that it may be known to all , what reason we have to insist in this our Argument , ad hominem , and that we have proponed it , not to catch advantage of you , but to get satisfaction to our own mindes , concerning the Covenant , and your sincerity in urging us to subscrive it , we will collect out of that which hath beene already said , some interrogatories , which we pray you to answer punctually , if ye intend to give us satisfaction . The first is , whether or not your declaration of the extent of the late Covenant , to wit , that it extendeth not it self to the abjuration of Pearth Articles , be not only vera , true in it self , but also verax , that is , consonant to your minde , and to the minde of the chief contrivers of it ? The reason wherefore we propone this question , ye will perceive by these that follow . Secondly , seeing ye and others the chief recommenders of the old Covenant , have been ever of this minde , that Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , are abjured in it ; we aske , whether ye all tying your selves by this late Covenant , to the inviolable observation of the old Covenant ; have tyed your selves to it in all the particular points , which ye conceived to be contained in it , or only in some of them ? did ye by mentall reservation , except any part of that old Covenant , or in particular did ye except that part of it , in the which perpetuall continuance in the doctrine and discipline of this Church is promised ? Or if that part was not excepted , did ye put any new glosse upon it which it had not before ? And if ye did not , whether or not ye renewing the Oath of perpetuall observation , of the doctrine and discipline of this Church , as it was Anno 1581 , have not only really , but also according to your own conception of that part of the old Covenant , abjured all Rites and Ceremonies , added to the discipline of this Church , since the foresaid year ; and consequently , the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacie ? Thirdly , seeing ye so confidently averre , that Pearth Articles are abjured in the old Covenant , how can ye deny them to be abjured in the new Covenant , except ye acknowledge a substantiall difference , betwixt the old and new Covenant ? Fourthly , if ye grant that they are really and indeed abjured in the late Covenant , how can ye faithfully and sincerely say to us , or to any other , that they are not abjured in it ? Fiftly , how can ye , and all others , ( who with you have really , and also according to your own conception of the old Covenant , abjured Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , by renewing of it ) voice freely , in the intended Assembly , concerning these ▪ things ; seeing ye are tyed by your Oath , to condemn and abrogate them ? Sixtly , How can we concurre with you in an Oath , wherein we are infallibly perswaded that ye have abjured Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie ? Seventhly , If we concurre with you in that Oath , will ye not ( as we objected in our Reply , but ye have not answered it ) think us bound by our Oath , to condemn Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie ? and will not ye thinke your selves bound in conscience to tell us , and all others , that which ye think to be trueth , and may make much for your cause , to wit , that the words of the Covenant have but one sense , and that in that one sense Pearth Articles are abjured ? 25. Ye , and all others , may now see , how injustly ye said , that we would have the Covenanters , against their intention , and whether they will or not , to disallow , and condemn Pearth Articles , and Episcopall Government , lest they be tryed in a free Assembly . GOD knoweth , how far we detest all such dealing , and this vindication of our two Arguments [ we added also a third , but ye have swallowed it ] brought by us , to prove , that Pearth Articles , and Episcopacie , are abjured in your late Covenant , will sufficiently cleare us of this imputation , to all unpartiall Readers . 26. We did not only alleadge , as ye say , that your supplications to his Majesty were fully satisfied by the last Proclamation ; but grounding an Argument upon your Answere , to our fourth Demand , we reasoned thus : If in all your supplications , ye have only sought the removing of the Service Book , book of Canons , and new high Commission ; not complaining of any other Novations , already introduced : and , seeing his Majesty hath granted this unto you , what reason have ye to say , that his Majesty hath not satisfied your supplications ? this our Argument , ye have turned to a meere alleadgeance , lest ye should have troubled your selves , with answering it . Whether , or not , we may forbeare the practise of Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed in a free Assembly . 27. We come now to the consideration of that , which your Covenant , by your own confession , tyeth us to ; to wit , The forbearance of Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed in a free Assembly . And first , whereas ye say , That the urging of the Service Book , is a sufficient reason for forbearance of Pearth Articles , till an Assembly ; we professe , that we can not see the equity , and force of this reason . For the Service Book may be holden out , albeit Pearth Articles were not forborne at this time ; yea , although they should never be removed . And the more obedient , Subjects were at this time , to his Majesties lawes already established , the greater hope might they have of obtaining their desires . 28. Ye bring two Arguments , to prove the lawfulnesse of the forbearance of Novations already introduced . One is , that the Articles of Pearth establishing them , were concluded onely for satisfying the KING , and not to presse any man with the practise of them : And because the Act it selfe ( ye mean the Act concerning Kneeling ) giveth warrand , to forbear the practise of them at this time , when the memory of Superstition is revived . But this reason doeth nowise satisfie our consciences . For , to begin with the last part of your Answere ; The Memory of Superstitious Celebration of the LORDS Supper , is not renewed in this Kingdom , for ought we know . And , if ye mean , that it is renewed by the Service Book ; suppone that were true , yet , ye know , the Service Book is discharged , by the Act of Counsell , at his Majesties commandement . Secondly , the Act of Pearth , giveth no warrand to forbear Kneeling ▪ upon every suspition or apprehensiō of Superstition , re-entring unto this Church . Your Argument , which ye brought to prove this , from the narrative of that Act , in your Answere to our ninth Demand , is confuted most plainly by us in our Replye to your Answere : and we shall again speak of it in our Duplye , to your second Answere concerning that Demād . 29. As for the other two parts of your reason , they are contrary to the very words of the Acts of Pearth Assembly . The first part is contrary to the Narrative of all these Acts , wherein no mention is made of satisfying the KING , but of other motives taken from the expediencie , or utility of the matters themselves . The second part is contrary to the tenor of the Decision , or Determination of these Acts : in the which by these formall words , The Assembly thinketh good : the Assembly ordaineth : Kneeling in the celebration of the Sacrament , Festival dayes , &c. are enjoined . 30. We hear of a childish , and rediculous concept of some , who think that these words , The Assembly thinketh good , import not an Ecclesiastick constitution , but a meere advice or Counsell . This apprehension proceedeth from ignorance : for that phrase is most frequently used by Counsells , in their decrees . In that Apostolick Counsell , mentioned Acts 15 , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are expresly used , verse 22. 25. 28. In the Counsell of Ancyra , Can. 1. & 2. the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used . In that great and first OEcumenick Counsell of Nice , Can. 5. ye have these words ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Can. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Can. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In the third Counsell of Carthage , Can. 1. 2. and 3. the word placuit is used , & in codice Canonum Ecclesiae Africanae Gr●co Latino , passim habetur vox Placuit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And from the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Decrees of the Apostolick Counsell were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Acts 16. 4. Yea , also the civill Decree of Caesar Augustus , Luke 2. verse 1. is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , edictum , placitum . And in the Civill Law , the Constitutions of Emperours , are called Principum placita , Instit. de Iure naturali , § . 6. & 9. Quod Principi placuit , Legis habet vigorem , sayeth Ulpianus , ff . de Constit. Principum , Lege 1 : Where Quod Principi placuit , signifieth as much , as Quod Princeps constituit . 31. Your other reason , [ which ye bring to prove the lawfulness of the forbearance of Pearth Articles ] is , that it is lawfull to swear the forbearance of a thing indifferent , in the case of scandall , and sensible fear of superstition , in others . Yea , ye think , that by doing so , ye have sworn obedience to the commandement of GOD , which forbiddeth the doing of that whereby others may be scandalized . This reason moveth us no more then the first : for , as for your fear of farther superstition , it is now groundlesse , and causelesse , in respect of the gracious promises contained in his Majesties Proclamation . But although it were a fear justly conceived , and although the eschewing of an Evill justly feared , be a thing good and desirable ; yet we ought not ▪ for the eschewing of it , disobey the lawfull commandements of our Superioures . For this were to doe Evill , that good might come of it ; which the Apostle condemneth , Rom. 3. verse 8. Of Scandall ; and whether or not we may deny obedience to the Lawes of our Superiours , for fear of scandal causelesly taken ? 32. As for that other motive of scandall , for which ye alleadge , that we who think the matters concluded in Pearth Assembly , to be indifferent , and lawfull , may swear the forbearance of them ; we pray you , tell us , what kynd of scandall it is , which , as ye alleadge , is taken at the practise of Pearth Articles ? Ye know , that passive scandall , is either procured by the enormitie or irregularitie of the fact it self , [ to wit , when either it is a sin , or else hath a manifest show of sin ] or else it is not procured , but causelesly taken by some , either through malice , or else through weakness . Now , which of these two sorts of scandall would ye have us to acknowledge , in the practise of Pearth Articles ? If the first , then ye would have us to condemne Pearth Articles , before they be tryed in a free Assembly : which is contrary to your protestation , and no lesse contrary to our resolution . For , if we acknowledge any enormitie in the practise of Pearth Articles , ex ipsa conditione operis , we shall be holden to condemne them , and abstaine from them for ever . 33. If ye will have us to acknowledge , that the scandall following upon the practise of Pearth Articles , is of the second sort , that is , is causelesly taken ; and ▪ that for such a scandall , whether it be taken through weaknesse , or malice , we ought to abstaine from the doing of a thing indifferent , although it be enjoined by a lawfull Authority ▪ ( for ye generally affirme , that all things , which are not necessary , and directly commanded by GOD himself , ought to be omitted , for any scandall whatsoever , although it be causelesly , yea , and most maliciously taken , and that notwithstanding of any humane precept , or law , enjoyning them . See the Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies , Part. 2. Cap. 8. Sect. 5. & 6. Item Cap 9. Sect. 10. ) then we protest , that we differ so far from you in this point , that we think , that for no scandall , causelesly taken , can we swear such a forbearance of Pearth Articles , as ye would have us . And we marvell from whence ye have learned this strange , and most haske doctrine , that for scandall , causelesly , yea , maliciously taken , a man may totally , and absolutely , deny obedience , to the lawes of Superioures . 34. The Author of the dispute even now cited , alleadgeth for his opinion , some Schoole-men , acknowledging the trueth of it : and he nameth Cajetane , and Bennez , who ( sayeth he ) affirme , that we should abstain , even à spiritualibus non necessariis , when scandall ariseth out of them . He might have cited for this tenet , Thomas , and all his interpreters , [ even although he had been but slenderly acquaint with them ] as well as these two : for they all doe say so . But truely he much mistaketh them , when he alleadgeth them for his opinion . For , first , none of them ▪ ever taught , that we ought to abstaine totally and altogether , from any spirituall duety for the scandall , either of the weak , or malicious . Secondly , when Thomas and others following him , say , That bona spiritualia non necessaria sunt dimittenda propter scandalum , they speak directly de eis quae sunt sub concilio non vero sub praecepto , of matters of Councell , and not commanded by any Authority , divine or humane : and the most which they say of them , is , that such things sunt interdum occultanda , vel ad tempus differenda , that is , may at some times , and in some places , be omitted , for eschewing the scandall of the weak . Thirdly , the most accurate Casuists , and interpreters of Thomas , differ much about this question , Whether or not , things that are commanded by positive Lawes , Civil , and Ecclesiasticall , may be omitted at any time , for eschewing Scandalum pusillorum , the scandal of the weak . Dyverse of them deny this , to wit , Navarrus , in Manual . Cap. 14. § 44. Vasquez , Tom. 5. Tract . de scandalo , dubio primo , § . 5. Becanus in summa Theologiae , Part. 2. Tom. posteriori , Tract . 1. Cap. 27. Quaest. 5. Ferdin . de Castro Palao in opere morali , Tract . 6. Disp. 6. Punct . 16. Duvallius , in 2am . 2ae . D. Thomae , Tract . de Charitate , Quaest. 19. Art. 5. And for their judgemēt they cite Thomas , Durandus , Almainus , Anton. Florent . and many others . Fourthly : Those of them who think , that things commanded by humane Lawes , may be omitted in the case of scandall , admit not as ye doe , such an omission of the thing commanded in the case of scandall , as is conjoined with a flatte disclaiming of the Authority of the Law. For they tell us , that we ought not , for any scandall of the weak , deny obedience to the Precepts , or Lawes , of our superioures , whensoever all other circumstances being considered , we are tyed , or obliedged , to the obedience of them . The omission , then , of the thing commanded , which they allow , is only a partiall and occasionall forbearance , and not a totall abstinence from obedience , or disclaiming the Authority of the Law. See Valentia , Tom. 3. Disp. 3. Quaest. 18. Punct . 4. & Suarez . de triplici Virtute , Tract . 3. Disp. 10. Sect. 3. § . 9. 35. But the forbearance of Pearth Articles , which ye require of us , is conjoined with a flatte disclaiming of the Authority of all the Lawes which established them . And ye will have us to forbear these Articles , at this time , when all the particular circumstances , which we ought to regard , being considered , we are tyed to obedience of them , especially , if we look to the will and minde of the Lawgivers , and of our present Superioures . We justly say , that you will have us to disclaime , altogether , the Authority of these Lawes . For whosoever resolve and determine , not to practise Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed in a new Assembly , & established by a new Parliament ; these are purposed , never to obey them , except they be tyed by new Lawes and Acts , concluded in a new Assembly , and Parliament : And , consequently , are resolved , never to regard and obey the lawes or Acts of Pearth Assembly , and the Parliament 1621 , which established these things . But so it is , ye would have us to resolve , yea , to promise , and sweare , not to practise Pearth Articles , untill they be tryed in a new assembly , and established by a new Parliament : Ergo , ye would have us to promise , not to practise Pearth Articles , except we be tyed , or obliedged , by new Lawes , to practise them : and , consequently , would have us , never to regard , or obey , the Acts of Pearth Assembly , and Parliament 1621. 36. This kinde of forbearance , to wit , which is conjoined with a plaine disclaiming of the authority of the Lawes made by our Superiours , can not be excused with your pretence of scandall causelesly taken . This we prove : First , by a position granted by your selves , and so evidently true , that no man can deny it . The Author of the Dispute , against English Popish Ceremonies , Part. 1. Cap. 4. Sect. 4. sayeth , That it were Scandall , not to obey the Lawes of the Church , when they prescrive things necessary , or expedient for the eschewing of Scandall : And , that it were contempt , to refuse obedience to the Lawes of the Church , when we are not certainly perswaded , of the unlawfulnesse or inexpediency of things commanded . Now , if such a refusing of obedience , be both a Contempt , and a Scandall , it followeth manifestly , that no man for eschewing of Scandall causelesly taken , ought in such a case to refuse obedience . Hence we reason thus : whosoever are not perswaded of the unlawfulnesse or inexpediency , of the things commanded by their Superiours ; and on the contrare think them to be expedient ad vitandum Scandalum ; these ought not for eschewing of Scandall , refuse obedience to the Lawes and ordinances of their Superiours . But so it is , we are neither perswaded of the unlawfulnesse , nor of the inexpediency of Pearth Articles : yea , on the contrarie , we think that the Acts of Pearth Assembly , enjoineth things very expedient for eschewing of Scandall : Ergo , we ought not for eschewing of Scandall causelesly taken , to refuse obedience to them . The Major of this our first Argument , is already proven . The Minor is conforme to the light of our own consciences , as GOD knoweth : and therefore so long as we are of this minde , we can not deny obedience to the ordinances of our Superiours , for any fear of Scandall causelesly taken . 37. Secondly , that which may be removed by information or instruction , can not be warrand to us , of a totall abstinence from the obedience of Lawes , or , which is all one , of an avowed disclaiming of the Authority of them . But the Scandall of the weake , taken by the practise of Pearth Articles , may be removed by information , or instruction : Ergo , it can not be a warrand to us , of a totall disclaiming of the Authority of the Lawes , whereby these Articles were established . 38. Thirdly : If for scandalls taken , especially by the malicious , we may disclaime the Authority of a Law , then we may ever disclaim the Authority of all Lawes , of the Church or Estate . For there is nothing commanded by Lawes , but some either through weaknesse , or through malice , may take offence at it . 39. Fourthly , we ought not for eschewing scandal causelesly taken , to injure or offend any man , by denying to him , that which is due to him , and therefore we ought not , for eschewing scandall causelesly taken , to offend and injure our superioures , in Church and Policy , by denying to them that obedience which is due to them . The antecedent is clear by many examples . For if a man be excommunicated , shall his Wife , Children , and servants slee his company , and so deny to him these dueties which they ow to him , for fear that others be scandalized , by their keeping of company with an excommunicate Person ? And if they may not for eschewing of scandall , abstaine from these dueties , which they ow to a private person , much lesse may we abstaine from that obedience , which we ow to our superioures , having publicke charges in Church and Policy , for eschewing of scandalls causelesly taken by others . 40. Fiftly , what if the thing commanded , be enjoined by the civill Magistrate , under paine of death , and by Ecclesiasticall Authority , under paine of excommunication , shall we for fear of a scandall causelesly taken , which may be removed by information , or for the scandall of the malicious , who will not be informed at all , abstaine from the doing of a thing lawfull and expedient , enjoined by Authority , and by so doing , incurre these most grievous punishments of Death temporall , and spirituall ? We believe , that your selves , who speak most of scandall , would be loath to take such a yoke upon you . 41. Sixtly , The denying of obedience , to the lawfull commandements of our superioures , is forbidden in the fift Commandement , and consequently it is a sin . Shall we then for a scandall causelesly taken , deny obedience to our superioures , and so incurre the guiltinesse of sin ? Ye commonly answere to this , that the negative part of the fift Commandement , which forbideth the resisting of the power , Rom. 13. verse 2. and in generall the denying of obedience to superioures , is to be understood with the exception of the case of any scandall taken by others . For if we see , ( say ye ) that any may , or will take offence , at the doing of that which is cōmanded by our superioures , we are not holden to obey them : and our denying of obedience to them in such a case , is not forbidden in that Commandement . 42. But , first , we aske , what warrand ye have to say , that the negative part of the fift Commandement , is to be understood with the exception of the case of scandall , more then other negative precepts of the second Table ? Secondly : As men may take offence , either through weaknesse , or malice , at our doing of the thing commanded ; so they are most ready to stumble at our denying of obedience to the lawfull commandements of our superioures : for they will take occasion , by our carriage , to doe that , unto which by nature , they are most enclined ; to wit , to vilipend Lawes , and the Authority of their superioures . Shall we , then , for the eschewing of a scandall causelesly taken , not only refuse to our superioures , the duety of obedience , which they crave of us ; but also incurre an other scandall , and that a farre more perilous one . Thirdly : we have already shown , that the negative part of the fift Commandement , is not all wayes to be understood with the exception of the case of scandall causelesly taken . For , Wives , Children , and Servants , must not deny obedience , and familiar conversation to their Husbands , Parents , and Masters , which are excommunicated , for fear that others , through weaknesse , or malice , be scandalized thereat . Fourthly : As ye say , that the precept concerning obedience to superioures , is to be understood with the exception of the case of scandall causelesly taken ; so we , with farre better reason , say , that the precept , of eschewing scandall causelesly taken , is to be understood with the exception of the case of obedience peremptorly required , by our lawfull superioures , as we shall show in our next Argument . Whether the Precept of Obedience to Superioures , or the Precept of eschewing scandall , be more obligatory ? 43. Last of all : when a man is peremptorly urged by his superioures , to obey their lawfull Commandements , and in the mean time feareth , that if he doe the thing commanded by them , some , through weakness , shall be scandalized , by his carriage ; in this case , he is not only in a difficulty , or strait , betwixt the commandement of Man , and the Commandement of GOD , who forbiddeth us to doe that whereby our weak Brother may be offended ; but also he seemeth to be in a strait betwixt two of GODS Commandements ; to wit , betwixt that precept which forbiddeth the doing of any thing , whereby the weake may be scandalized , and that other precept which forbiddeth the resisting of Authority ; and telleth us , that whosoever resisteth the Power , resisteth the Ordinance of GOD. Now , seeing GODS Precepts are not repugnant one to another , neither doeth GOD by his Lawes lay upon us a necessity of sinning , out of all question , in this case , we are fred from the obligation of one of these precepts : and that which doeth not so strictly tye us , or is lesse obligatory , must needs give place to the other , which is of greater obligation . Ye commonly say , that the precept of obedience to humane Authority , must give place to the precept of eschewing scandall , although it be causelesly taken : And , to confirme your Assertion , ye say , that the ordinance of a superiour , can not make that fact to be free of scandall , which otherwise would be scandalous ; and , that a fact , upon which any scandall followeth , ought not to be done for the commandement of Man. Whence ye collect , that , in such a case , we ought not to regard , or obey the Commandement of our Superiours . 44. This your Reason can not be good , because we can easily retort the Argument , and say to you , that in such a case we ought not to regard the scandall causelesly taken by our weak Brethren , so far , as to deny simplie , and absolutely , Obedience to our Superiours for it : and that because the sin of Disobedience ought to be eschewed and no Scandall of weak brethren causelesly taken , can make that fact , not to be the sin of disobedience , which otherwise , that is , extra casum scandali , would bee the sin of disobedience . For it is certain , that ( laying aside the case of scandall ) to deny obedience to the ordinance of our Superiours , enjoining , and peremptorly requiring of us , things lawfull , and expedient , is really the sin of disobedience . Ye will say , that the scandall of weak brethren , may make that Fact , or Omission , not to be disobedience , which otherwise would be disobedience ; because we ought not for the Commandement of man , doe that whereby our weak brother may be offended : and so the precept of obedience bindeth not , when offence of a weak brother may be feared . On the contrary we say , that the lawfull commandement of Superiours , may make that scandall of our weake brethren , not to be imputed unto us , which otherwise would be imputed unto us , as a matter of our guiltinesse ; because we ought not , for fear of scandal causelesly taken , deny obedience to the lawfull Commandements of our Superiours . 45. Again , ye say , that when scandall of weak brethren may be feared , the precept of Obedience is not obligatory , in respect the thing commanded by our Superiours , although it be in it self lawfull , yet it becometh unexpedient , in respect of the Scandall which may follow upon it . Now , ( say ye ) the ordinances of our Superiours are not obligatory , when the things commanded by them are unexpedient . We , on the contrary , say , that when our Superiours require of us obedience to their lawfull commandements , the precept of eschewing scandall , is not obligatory ; in respect we ought not , for Scandall causelesly taken , omit necessary dueties , which GOD in His Law requireth of us : In which number , we most justly doe reckon , The duety of Obedience . which we owe to the lawfull Commandements of our Superiours . 46. As for that which ye say , that when Scandall may be taken at the doing of the thing commanded , then the thing commanded becommeth inexpedient , and so ought not to be obeyed ; that ye be not more deceived by this errour , we pray you marke , that a thing comcomanded by our Superiours , in Church , or Policy , may be two wayes inexpedient , to wit , either in respect of some particular Persons , who through weaknesse or malice doe stumble at it , or else in respect of the body in generall , because it is contrary to Order , Decency , and Edification . If the thing commanded be inexpedient the first way only , we may indeed , in such a case , for eschewing the scandall of the weak , forbear the practise of the thing commanded hîc , & nunc , in some particular places , and times : providing alwise we doe this ▪ Without offence of our Superiours , and without the scandal of others ▪ who by our forbearance may be made to vilipend the Authority of Lawes . But we can not in such a case totally and absolutely , deny obedience to a Law , as we have already proven . Neither is your Argument brought to the contrary valide , in respect we ought more to look to the utilitie and benefite , which the body of the Church may receive by the thing commanded , and by our obedience to our Superioures , then to the harme which some particular Persons may receive thereby . 47. If the thing commanded , be in our private judgement inexpedient the second way , we ought not for that to deny obedience to the Lawes of the Church ; for when the inexpediency of a thing is questionable , and probable Arguments may be brought pro and contrae , concerning the expediencie of it , we have sufficient warrand to practise it , if the Church by her publick decree hath declared , that she thinketh it expedient . Your errour , who are of the contrary minde , is very dangerous , and may prove most pernicious to the Church , for it maketh the Church obnoxious to perpetuall Schisme , and disconformity in matters of externall Policy : in respect men ordinarily are divyded in judgement , concerning the expediencie of these things Suppon , then , that in a Synode consisting of an hundreth Pastors , threescore of them think this , or that particular Ceremony to be expedient for the good of the Church ; and in respect of the plurality of their voices , make an Act to be concluded for the establishing of it , shall the remnant four●y , who are of the contrary judgement , deny obedience to the Act of the Synode , because they are perswaded , that the thing concluded is inexpedient , and shal they by doing so , rent the body of the Church ? Truely , if we were all of your minde , we should never have Peace nor Unity in this Church . Ye will say , perhaps , that this our Argument , is Popish , and leadeth men to acquiesce , without tryall , or examination , in the decrees of the Church . We answere , that in matters of faith , the trueth whereof may be in●allibly concluded out of GODS word , we ought not , without tryall , to acquiesce into the decrees of the Church . And in this respect we dissent from the Papists , who ascrive too much to the Authority of counsells , as if their decrees were infallible . But in matters of Policy , if we be certaine , that in their own nature they are indifferent , and if the expediencie of them only be called in question , seeing no certaine conclusion , concerning their expediency , can be infallibly drawn out of GODS word , which hath not determined , whether this or that particular Rite be agreable to order , decency , and edification ; we ought to acquiesoe into the decree or constitution of the Church , although it be not of infallible Authority : and that partly because it is impossible , that otherwise we can agree in one conclusion , concerning matters of this nature , and partly , because if we deny obedience to the decrees of the Church in such matters , our disobedience shall prove far more unexpedient , and hurtfull to the Church , then our obedience can be . 48. Seeing , then , whatsoever ye have hitherto said , concerning the question proponed by us , may be easily answered , with a retortion of the Argument , upon your selves ; that we may eschew all such Logomachie , we must take some other course , and try which of these two precepts is in it self of greater moment , and obligation : for thence we may collect , which of these two precepts doeth obliedge us in the case foresaid ; the other giving place to it , and not obliedging us at all , in that case . If ye say , that the precept which forbiddeth us to doe that whereby our weak Brother may be scandalized , is in it selfe more obligatory , or doeth more strictly ty us to the obedience of it , as being of greater moment , ye must bring a solide reason for you , which we think ye will hardly find . We know ye say , that the precept concerning Scandall , is more obligatory , and of greater moment ; because it concerneth the losse of the soule of a Brother : But this reason is not valide ; first , in respect our Brother , if he be scandalized , by our obedience to our superioures , sinneth not by our default , who doe obey : for our carriage in giving obedience , is such , as may rather edifie our Brother . Secondly : the precept which forbiddeth disobedience , concerneth the losse both of our own soules , and of the soules of others , who may be entysed to that sin , by our denying obedience , to the lawfull commandements of our superioures . Thirdly , if that precept of eschewing scandall , causelesly taken , doe so strictly obliedge us , when our superioures require obedience of us , it may happen , that a man shall be in an inextricable perplexity , not knowing whether he shall obey , or deny obedience to the cōmandements of his superioures : in respect he may fear the scandall of the weak , whether he obey , or deny obedience . For , as we said before , many are most ready to be scandalized by our denying obedience to our superioures , in thinges lawfull , and otherwise expedient : and that because we by nature are most unwilling to be curbed , and to have our liberty restrained , by the lawes of our superioures . For this cause ( as Calvin judiciously noteth , Instit. Lib. 2. Cap. 8. § . 35. ) GOD to allure us to the duety of obedience to our superioures , called all superioures , Parents , in the fift Commandement . 49. But we , with good warrand , doe averre , that the precept which forbiddeth resisting of the Civil power , and in generall the denying of obedience to the lawfull commandements of our Superiours , is of greater obligation and moment . And , first , we prove this by an Argument taken from the diverse degrees of that care , which we ought to have of the Salvation of others : for this care tyeth us to three things ; to wit , first , to the doing of that which may be edificative , and may give a good example to all . Secondly , to the eschewing of that which may be scandalous , or an evill example to all ; that is , to the eschewing of every thing , which is either sin , or hath a manifest show of sin . Thirdly : to abstain even from that , which although it be lawfull , yet it may be , to some particular persons , an occasion of sin . Of these , the first two are most to be regarded , in respect they concern the good of all , which is to be preferred to the good of particular persons . Hence we inferre that the precept of obedience to Superiours , which prescriveth an Act edificative to all , because it is an exercise of a most eminent and necessary vertue , is more obligatory , and of greater moment , then the precept of eschewing scandall , causelesly taken , by some particular persons . 50. Secondly : That the precept of obedience to our superiours , is of greater moment , & consequently more obligatory , then the precept of eschewing scandal , is evident by these reasons which are brought by our Divines , to show wherefore the fifth Commandement , hath the first place in the second Table : to wit , first , because it cōmeth nearest to the nature of Religion or Piety , commanded in the first Table , whence ( as your own Amesius noteth in his Medulla , Lib. 2. Cap. 17. § . 13. ) the honouring and obeying of Parents , is called by prophane Authors Religion and Piety . Secondly : This precept , is the ground and sinewe , ( sayeth Pareus , in his Catechetick explication of the fift precept , ) of the obedience which is to be givē to al the rest of the precepts , of the second Table . Two reasons are cōmonly brought of this : one is , that all Societies , oeconomick , Civill and Ecclesiasticall , doe consist and are conserved , by the submission or subjection of Inferiours to Superiours , which being removed , confusion necessarily followeth . The other is , that the obedience of this precept , maketh way to the obediēce of all the rest . For our superiours are set over us , to the end , that they may make us to doe our duety to all others . And consequently our obedience to them , is a mean instituted by GOD , to procure our obedience to all the rest of the Precepts of the second Table . Now , would ye know what followeth out of this , let your own Amesius , whose words are more gracious unto you , then ours , tell you it : Seeing ( sayeth he , Cap. citato , § . 6. ) humane societie hath the place of a foundation or ground , in respect of other dueties , of Iustice and Charitie , which are commanded in the second Table of the Law : therfore these crimes which directly procure the perturbation , confusion , and eversion of it , are more grievous then the violation of the singular Precepts . Now we subsume : the denying of obedience to Superiours , enjoining such things as in themselves are lawfull and expedient , directly procureth the perturbation and confusion of humane society . And therefore it is a crime greater then the violation of other particular precepts of the second Table . For this cause , Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria , in his Epistle ad Novatum , cited before , declaring how much the unity of the Church ( which is most frequently marred by the disobedience of Inferiours to their Superiours , ) ought to be regarded , sayeth , that Martyrdom suffered for es●hewing of Schism● , is more glorious , then Martyrdom suffered for ●sch●wing ▪ Idolatrie . 51. Thirdly : These offices , or dueties , which we owe to others by way of Justice , are more strickly obligatory , then these which we owe to them , onely by way of charity . And consequently , these precepts which prescrive dueties of justice , are of greater obligation , then these which prescrive dueties of charity onely . But we owe the duety of obedience to our Superiours , by way of Justice , and therefore it is more obligatory , then the duety of eschewing Scandall causelesly taken , which is a duety onely of charity . The Major , or first proposition of this Argument , is clear of it self , as being a Maxime not onely received by the Scholasticks and Popish Casuists , but also by our Divines . See your own Amesius , in his Medulla , Lib. 2. Cap. 16. § . 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 63. where he not onely proponeth this Maxime , but also proveth it by two most evident examples . The Minor is likewise clear : For , first , the duety of obedience , which we owe to the publick Lawes of the Church and Kingdom , belongeth to that Generall Justice , which is called Iustitia legalis . For the legall Justice , as it is in Inferiours , or subjects , it is a vertue inclining them to the obedience of all Lawes , made for the benefite of the Common-wealth , as Aristotle declareth in his fift book of the Ethicks , Cap. 1. Secondly : Debitum obedientiae , the debt of obedience , which we ow to our superioures , is not only debitum morale ; a debt or duety , unto which we are tyed by morall honesty , and GODS Commandement , but also debitum legale , or debitum justitiae , ( quod viz. fundatur in propriojure alterius ) a debt grounded upon the true and proper right , which our superioures have to exact this duety of us ; so that they may accuse us of injury , and censure us , if we performe it not . There is a great difference betwixt these two sorts of debt ; and the last is far more obligatory , then the first : As for example , a man oweth moneys to the poor , by a morall debt , but to his creditor he oweth them by a legall debt , or debt of justice : and therefore , he is more strictly obliedged to pay his creditor , then to give almes . Such-like , by morall honesty , and GODS precept also , a man oweth to his neighbour , a pious carefullnesse , to impede sin in him , by admonition , instruction , good example , and by ommission even of things lawfull , when he foreseeth that his neighbour in respect of his weaknesse , will be scandalized by them . But his neighbour hath not such a right to exact these things of him , neither can he have action against him , for not performing of them , as our lawfull superioures have for our due obedience . In what sense the administration of the Sacraments , in private places , was thought indifferent ▪ in Pearth Assembly . 52. In our Reply we professed , that we can not abstaine presently from private Baptisme , and private communion , being required t● administrate these Sacraments to such persons , as can not come , or be brought to the Church . Hence , first , ye take occasion to object to us , that the state of the question concerning Pearth Articles , is quite altered , in respect we and our associates , did ever before alleadge the question to be of things indifferent , but now we think them to be so necessary , that although the generall Assembly of the Church should discharge them , we behoved still to practise them : We answere , first , that the Assembly of Pearth hath determined nothing , of the indifferencie or necessity of these things . Secondly : If any who allowed these Articles , did at that time in their discourses and speaches call them indifferent , they meaned only , that in the celebration of these Sacraments , the circumstances of place and time are things indifferent of their own nature : or , which is all one , that we are not so tyed to the administration of them in the Church , and at tymes appointed for Sermon , but we may celebrate them in private houses , and at other times . But judicious and learned men , even then thought the denying of these Sacraments to persons , who can not come , or be brought to the Church , to be a restraining of the means of grace , altogether unwarrandable by GODS word . Whence ye may collect , whether or not they thought it to be unlawfull . Thirdly : Ye have no warrand from our Reply , to say , that we would not abstaine from private Baptisme , and Communion , although our nationall Assembly should discharge them . For as we are very unwilling to omit any necessary duety of our Calling : so we cary a singular respect to lawfull Authority , and to the Peace , and Unity of the Church , abhorring Schisme , as the very Pest of the Church . But of this we shall speak hereafter in the thirteenth Duply . 53 , Next , ye say , if we have the same judgement of kneeling , in the receiving of the Communion , and of Feastivall dayes , it commeth to passe among us which hath been incident to the Church in former ages , that things have been first brought in as indifferent , then urged as necessary . Certainly , Brethren , none are so guilty of this , as your selves , and your associates : for ye have now made some things to be esteemed necessary by your followers , which have been accounted indifferent , not only since the Reformation , but these fifteene hundreth years bygone . And in some other things , which the ancient Church did wisely forbid , ye doe now make the Liberty of the Gospel to consist . As for us , we stand as we stood before , and doe yet think kneeling in the receiving of the Sacrament , and the five Festivall dayes , to be Rites indifferent in their own nature ; but indeed very profitable , and edificative , if Pastors would doe their duety in making their people sensible , of the lawfulness & expediency of them . 54. We are of the same judgement concerning Confirmation , which Calvin , writting upon Hebr. 6. 2. acknowledgeth , To have been undoubtedly delivered to the Church by the Apostles : and with the same Author , in the fourth book of his Institut . Cap. 19 , § . 14. we wish , that the use of it were again restored : so far are we from that partiall dealing with the Articles of Pearth , which ye object unto us . What hath moved our most reverend Prelats , to abstain hither●o from the practising of it , we know not : they can themselves best satisfie you in this point . And we modestly judge , that this omission hath proceeded from weighty and regardable causes . It was sufficient for us , to have a care of our own dueties , in our particular stations . But the urging and pressing of that practise upon the Bishops , requireth higher Authority , then ours . In the mean time , ye know the Bishops never disclaimed the Authority of the act of Pearth , concerning Confirmation , or of any other of these Acts , as ye have done , who have been hitherto professed and avowed disobeyers of them all . Wherefore we wish you , hereafter not to bring this omission of the Bishops , in the matter of Confirmation , as an Argument for that forbearance of Pearth Articles , which ye require of us : for there is a great difference betwixt the omission of a duety commanded by a Law , and an avowed , or professed , yea , sworne disobedience of the Law. 55. Last of all , whereas ye say , that we , by mantaining the necessity of private Baptisme and Communion , doe condemne the practise of this our Church , from the Reformation , till Pearth Assembly , and put no small guiltinesse upon other reformed Churches , who use not private Baptism and Communion at all , but abstain from them as dangerous : we answere , that we have , in all modesty , proponed our own judgement , concerning private Baptism , and private Cōmunion , nominem judica●tes ( as Cyprian said of old , in consilio Carthag . in praefat . ) nor taking upon us , to censure or condemne the practise either of this Church , in times preceeding Pearth Assembly , or of other reformed Churches . We can not indeed deny , but we dissent from them : and if this be a condemning of them , we may no lesse justly say to you , that you condemne the practise and doctrine not onely of our Reformers , in the particulars mentioned before in this same Duply , but also of diverse reformed Churches , and of the ancient Church , as we declared in our sixt Demand , and shall again speak of it in our sixt Duply . A Defence of our Doctrine and Practise , concerning the Celebration of Baptism and the LORDS Supper in private places . 56. Ye desire us , wisely to consider , whether the desire which our people have of Baptism and Communion , in time of sicknesse , be not occasioned by prevailing of Popery , and through a superstitious conceit that people have of these Sacraments , as necessary to Salvatiō . We are loath to come short of you in dueties of charity , especially in good wishes ; and therefore , we likewise wish you , wisely to consider , whether the neglect of these Sacraments in the time of sicknesse , which is in many parts of the Kingdom , proceed not from some want of a sufficient knowledge , and due esteem of the fruits of these high and Heavenly Mysteries . 57. It is well that ye acknowledge , that we minister these Sacraments in private , as necessary onely by the necessity of the Cōmandement of GOD ; but withall ye conceive , that our people imagine , or seem to imagine them to be so necessary means , as that God hath tyed his grace to them . We desire you to judge charitably of those who are unknown to you ; and withall we declare , that neither we doe teach our People , nor doe they think , for ought we did ever know , that Baptism is so necessary a mean unto Salvation , that without it GOD can not , or will not saye any : yea , on the contrary , we are confident , that when Baptism is earnestly sought for , or unfeignedly desired , and yet can not be had , the Prayers of the Parents , and of the Church , are accepted by GOD , in stead of the ordinary mean , the use whereof is hindred , by unavoidable necessity : and so in this we depart from the rigid tenet of Papists . On the other part , we likewise teach , and accordingly our People learn , that Baptism is the ordinary mean of our enterance into the Church , and of our Regeneration ; to the use whereof , GOD , by his Commandement , hath tyed us . 58. If the commandement of our Saviour , Matth. 28. 19. Goe ye , therefore , and teach all Nations , baptizing them , In the Name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the holy Ghost , tye not Parents to seek Baptism to their Children , and Pastors to administer , when it is sought , then have we no commandement at all , for baptizing of Infants , which is an Anabaptisticall absurdity : But if Parents and Pastors , are tyed by this Commandement , then Parents ought to seek Baptism , to their dying Children , not baptized before ( for then , or never ) and Pastors must accordingly performe that duety then , which is incumbent upon them . This is that which KING Iames of blessed memory , in a conference at Hampton-court , Pag. 17 , reporteth himself , to have answered to a Scotish Minister , while he was in Scotland : The Minister asked , If he thought Baptism so necessarie , that if it be omitted , the child should be damned ? No , said the KING ; but if you being called to baptize the child , though privatlie , should refuse to come , I think you should be damned . 59. Ye say , ( to avoide the strength of this Argument ) that the necessity of the commandement , standeth onely for Baptism in publick ; and , that no precept requireth Baptism , but when it can be had orderly , with all the circumstances thereof : whereof ye say this is one , that it be administred in the presence of that visible Kirk , wherof the Children are to be members . Thus , first , ye condemne as unlawfull the administration of Baptism even in the Church , God-fathers , and God-mothers , being present , if the whole Congregation be not present there ; and the like doctrine we find in others , also cited on the Margin , which soundeth so harshly in the ears of some of your own adherents , that they can not be perswaded that this is your doctrine . Secondly : the Commandement of CHRIST tying us to Baptisme , hath no such addition either of the presence of the Congregation , or yet of the materiall Kirk . This belongeth but to the solemnity , and not to the necessary lawfull use of Baptisme . Where GOD hath tyed this solemnity to Baptism , ye can not show by holy Scripture : but where GOD hath tyed us to Baptism , we have already shown . It is true , solemnities should not be lightly omitted : but the Law sayeth , When evident equity requireth , they may be dispensed withe for according to that same Law , That which is chief and principall , should not be ruled by that which is accessory , but contrariwise . As for the place of Baptism , we may say of it , as Tertullian sayeth of the time thereof , in the 19 chapter of his Book of Baptism , Every day is the LORDS , every houre , day , and time , is fit for Baptism : it may want of the solemnity , but nothing of the grace . Neither is such a number , as ye require to be present , necessary in this case . Our Saviour hath taught us , Matth. 18. 19. That if two shall agree on Earth , as touching any thing that they shall aske , it shall be done for them , of his Father which is in Heaven : For sayeth he , where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them . We beseech you , therefore , Brethren , to take heed , that ye prescribe not to mens consciences , Rites of necessity , without clear warrand from GODS word , by which ye will never be able to prove the necessity of this circumstance required by you in Baptism . 60. The practise of the primitive Church , both in the Apostles times , and thereafter , agreeth with this doctrine and practise of ours . Sainct Philip baptised the Eunuch on the way , Acts 8. Anantas baptized Saul in a private house , Acts 9. Sainct Paul baptized the Jaylour in his house , Acts 16. If ye answere as others doe , that the necessity of the infancy of ▪ the Church , excused the want of the presence of a Congregation : we reply , that the same necessity is found in the cases whereof we speak : for as unpossible it is for a dying insant , who about mid-night is at the last gaspe , to enjoy the presence of the congregation , as it was impossible for any of the afore mentioned , the Eunuch , Saul , or the Iailor , to have had a Congregation present at their Baptism , yea , more impossible ; and why should there not be the same effect , where there is the same reason ? 61. The practise of the ancient Church , in this , is also clear for us . This is manifest from the 76 ▪ Epistle of S. Cyprian , from the Oration of Gregorie Nyssen , against them who delayed their Baptism , from S. Basill , in his 13 Homilie , which is an exhortation to Baptism , Tom. 1. from Gregorie Nazianzen , in his 40. Oration , whose words we have cited upon the margine . Hence although two fet times were appointed , for solemn Baptism , yet the case of necessity was ever excepted . This is clear by the foresaid Testimonies , as also by these following , Sir c●us Epist. 1. cap. 2. Tom. 1. Concil . Gelas. Epist. 9. ad Episcopos Lucani● , Tom. 2. Concil . Conc. Antisiodor . cap. 18. Tom. 2. Conc. Matiscon . 2. cap. 3. Tom. 2. Concil . Conc. Meldens . cap. 48. Conc. Triburiens . cap. 12. Concil . in Palatio Vernis cap. 7. Conc. Wormatiens . cap. 1. Tom. 3. Concil . The learned Causabon , in his 16 exercitation , cōsidering all this , sayeth , Woe to them , that in the administration of this Sacrament , deny their duety to dying Infants , under pretence of I know not what Discipline . To this same purpose the learned Martin Bucer , in the 15 Chapter of his censure of the English Liturgie , considering Baptism of sick Infants privatly , sayeth , In this Constitution , all things are hol●ly set down . This same practise also is allowed by Doctor Whitaker , in his Book against Reynolds , Pag. 48. 62. The Congregation , say ye , whereof the child is to be a member , hath interest in this , and therefore ought to be present , no lesse then at excommunication , whereby a rotten member is cut off . In this case of necessity , there is no prejudice either to the child , or to the congregation , thorow the want of the congregations presence : for there is no neglect , nor contempt of the congregation in this case , or of any of the members thereof : and the child by Baptism , though privatly administred , is ingrafted into CHRIST , and so being joined to the head of the Church , becommeth also united unto the Church , which is his body . If excommunication require the presence of the whole congregation , because the power of binding and loosing , is delyvered by CHRIST to every particular Church , or congregation , collectively taken as it is affirmed in the Dispute against the English Popish ▪ Ceremonies , Part. 3. Cap. 8. Pag. 182. then it is not alike with Baptism , the power whereof is committed to the Pastors of the Church , Matth. 28. But although that ground be not true , as we think it is not , yet excōmunication is done in presence of the People . For this censure may not be inflicted , but onely for publick offences ; and therefore must be publick , as the offence is , That others also may fear , 1 Tim. 5. 20. and have no company with the delinquent , that he may be ashamed , 2. Thess. 3. 14. and so your similitude holdeth no● . 63. As for the administring of the Sacrament of the LORDS Supper , we say it is most profitable , for comforting of the Soules of men , sighting with the terrous of death ; and that the case may fall out , wherein they most ardently desire it , and consequently , that Pastors who are the Stewards of GODS House , ought not to deny to his Children , so hungring and thristing in this conflict , that heavenly refreshment : which we are not ashamed , with the ancient Fathers , to call , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Viaticum , though ye seem to condemne this . It is manifest by the writtings of the ancient Fathers : Iustine Martyr , in his 2. Apology : Eusebius , in the 6 Booke of his Story , 36. Chapter , and others , that the Sacrament was administred to sick persons privatly . The famous OEcumenick Counsell of Nice , in the 13 Canon , and second part thereof , appointeth the same , or rather confirmeth the ancient Lawes thereanent . The like we may see in the 76 Canon , of the fourth Counsell of Carthage . See Balsamon also , upon the 20. Canon of the Counsell of Carthage , where speaking of dying persons , he sayeth , That the LORDS Supper should be carefully administred unto them ; and Baptism , if they be not baptized . Hence Bishop Iewel in his Dispute against Hardings , Pag. 32. sayeth , That certain godly persons , both men and women , in time of persecution , or of sickness , or of other necessitie , received the Sacrament in their houses , it is not denyed . The ancient Fathers also call this Sacrament viaticum , or a provision for our journey . So the Fathers , in the fourth counsell of Carthage , speak , Canon 78. So Gaudentius in his second Treatise on Exodus . So in S. Basill his Liturgie , we find this Prayer , that the participation of these sacred things , may be the viaticum of eternall life . So Concil . Vas. 1. Can. 2. So Paulinus in vita Ambrosii . Whence Causabon , in his answere to the Epistle of Cardinall Perron , Pag. 49. sayeth , The Church of England not onely distributeth , the mysticall bread to the faithfull in the publick Congregation , but also administrateth to dying persons this viaticum , as the Fathers of the Counsell of Nice , and all Antiquitie , call it . 64. Learned Calvin was of this mind : Many and weightie reasons , sayeth he , Epist. 361. move me to think , that the Communion should not be denyed to sick persons . Zepperus , in his first Book of Ecclesiasticall policy , and 12. Chapter , hath these words of this matter , One thing rema●neth yet to be resolved , to wit , concerning the cōmunion of sick persons . Albeit some think otherwise , yet it seemeth , that the holy Supper may not , nor ought not , to be denyed to them that seek it . For if it was appointed for the confirming of our faith , and increase of our Comunion with Christ ; if we ought by the use of it to testifie our faith & studie of repentance ; why should they be deprived of so great a good , who fight with long diseases , or are in danger of their life ? When doeth Satan labour more stronglie to ●hake ●●d brangle our faith , then when we are exercised with bodily diseases ? When dó our consciences tremble more , and stand in need , of the most ample corroboration of faith , then when we find that death is knocking at the doore , and that we are called to compear before the Tribunall of GOD ? Hieronymus Zanchius , is of the same mind . Thus he writeth in an Epistle of his to Iohn Crato , Physician to the Emperour , I have nothing to say of the question proponed by you , but that I subscrive to your judgement , providing this be done when necessitie requireth , and it be administred to them , who through sicknesse , cannot come forth with others in publick . For since CHRIST denyeth this to none of his D●sciples , how can we refuse it to sick persons , who desire it before they depart hence , and that not out of any superstition , but that their minds may be the more comforted , and raised up ? Martin Bucer , in the 22. Chapter of his forementioned censure , considering that part of the Liturgie , wherein the administrating of the Communion to sick persons is ser down , sayeth , Things here commanded , are agreeable enough to holie Scripture : for it availeth not a little , to the comforting of troubled Soules , to receive the Communion of the LORD . Yea , he hath written a particular and most devote Treatise , directing Pastors how to administer the Communion to sick persons : and yet we trust , ye will not call him a Papist , since he was ●o hatefull to Papists , that after he was dead , they raised up his bones and burnt them . Peter Martyr , writting upon the 10. Chapter of the 1. Epistle to the Corinth . speaking of the LORDS Supper , hath these words , They say it most be given to sick persons : I confesse sayeth he , but the mystery may be celebrated before the sick persons . It is to be remarked also , that often times it falleth out , that some persons are affixed to their beds by sickness , for the space of five or six , yea , ten yeares , or more : And how can we deny the comfort of this holy Sacrament to those all that space , especially when they earnestly long for it ? 65. This doctrine and practise of ours , tendeth not to the contempt of the Sacraments , ( as ye would bear upon it ) it is plaine contrary : for by this practise , we show , how much we reverence the Commandement of GOD , and how highly we esteem of his ordinances , which we so earnestly seek after ; whereas on the other parr , the practise of others , leadeth people to the contempt of the Sacraments , because they are moved the reby , to thinke , that there is no such necessity and efficacy in them , as Scripture , and the consent of Christians , hath ascribed thereunto . As for other abuses , rehea●sed by you , as fruites of private Baptism , since you bring no proofe for what ye say in this , we oppone our just denyall , to your bare and unjust assertion . 66. Lastly , ye advertise the Reader , that ye think not the materiall Churches , but the ordinary meetings , necessary to the lawfull administration of the Sacraments , lest any should conceive that ye entertaine a superstitious conceit of places . We think , ye might have spared this advertisement : for we find , that they who oppugne our doctrine and practise in this point , are so far from being in danger of the extremity mentioned by you , that on the contrary they ●each , that the Church is a place no more holy , then any other , and that it may be indifferently used to sacred or civil uses : which in our judgement is not agreable , either to holy Scripture , or to sound Antiquity . See Eusebius in his ecclesiastick History , Lib. 10. cap. 3. Ch●ysost . homil . 36. on the first Epistle to the Corinth . S. Augustine , in his first Book of the city of GOD , cap. 1. Codex Theodasianus , Lib. 9. Titul . 45. de his qui ad Ecclesias confugerunt . Conc. Gangrens . Can. 21. Sect. 2. Re-examination of the Articles of Pearth . pag. 143. The V. DUPLY. THe indifferent Reader may perceive , by our former Duply , that your Answere to our first exception , taken from the obedience , due to Authority , and from our judgement , concerning the administration of Baptism , and the LORDS Supper , to dying persons in private places , hath not given satisfaction . 2. We asked of you , in our fift Demand , how we can subscrive the negative Confession , as it is propounded by you , without contradicting the positive Confession , approved by Parliament ▪ holden A●no 1567 , since the positive Confession , chap. 21. declareth , that Rites are changeable , according to the ex●gency of time , and consequen●ly that no perpetuall Law , may or ought to be made of them , and the negative Confession maketh a perpetuall Law , concerning the externall R●●es of the Church ; at least according to your judgement , who urge the subs●riving of this Covenant and Confession upon us ? we urged f●r●her in our Reply , that the late Covenant bindeth us to the old Covenant made Anno 1581 ; for by your late Covenant , ye professe your selves bound to keep the fore●aid nationall Oath ( as ye call it ) inviolable : and that old Covenant , or Oath , bindeth us to the discipline which was then ; and that discipline comprehendeth all the externall Rites of it , ( as ye have in all your writings professed , especially in that late Book entituled , The dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies : whence in your Sermons , and printed Books , since the Assembly of Pearth , ye have been still accusing us of Perjury . ) So from the first , to the last , the la●e Covenant bindeth us to the policy which was then ; and consequently , maketh a perpetuall Law , concerning the Rites of the Church , as if they were unchangeable . 3. Your Answere to this Argument , is not sufficient , nor to the purpose . 1. Ye put off , without any Answere , that which we alleadge out of a Dispute , against the English Popish Ceremonies ; and , in stead of answering , wish , that what we have thence , or from any other Treatise of that kind , were keeped to another time . Pardon us , that we wish greater ingenuity , and a more direct Answere . Consider the words of that Treatise before cited , Part. 4. Cap. 8. Sect. 8. No man amongst us can certainly know , that the Discipline meaned and spoken of in the Oath , by those that swear it , comprehendeth not under it those points of Discipline , for which we now contend , and which this Church had in use at the swearing of the Oath . Shall we , then , put the breach of the Oath in a fair hazard ? GOD forbid . The same we find to be the judgement of others also , who have opposed the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopall Government . Since , therefore , we desire to be resolved , concerning the right meaning of the negative Confession , lest by it we condradict the positive Confession , approved in Parliament : Had we not reason to propone this difficulty to you , who require our subscription , and came hither , to resolve our Scruples ? If ye condemn the judgement of these your Brethren , who were Authors of these Treatises , why doe ye not openly profess , that ye , and the rest of the Authors of the late Covenant , disallow it ? If ye doe approve it , as we have great reason to think ye doe , since ye have still opposed the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , and doe expresly referre us to those Treatises in your ninth Answere : How doe ye not see , that , with a good conscience , ye can not require us , to swear , and subscrive , that which ye know to be contrary to our minde ? Remember , we pray you , the words of the former Treatise , in the place before cited , put the case , it were doubtfull and questionable , what is meaned by the word Discipline in the Oath ; yet pars tutior , the safer way were to be chosen ; which is affirmed there to be this : that the points practised by us , are abjured in the negative Confession . 4. Secondly : whereas ye say , That none of you would refuse to swear the short Confession , because we have expounded some Articles of it contrary to your minde : we reply , that this answere satisfieth not : for you swearing the negative Confession , notwithstanding of the contrary Interpretation of them who differ in judgement from you , showeth not , how the apparent contradiction betwixt it , and the positive Confession , objected by us , is reconciled by you the propounders and urgers of it . Moreover , if we did urge you to subscrive the negative Confession , when in the mean time we were perswaded , that our interpretation of the Articles thereof , were contrary to your judgement ; we were bound to labour to informe your judgement , before we did exact your Oath : and , consequently , by the law of Charity and Equity , ye are obliedged , not to require our Oath , till first ye doe that , which is sufficient , to make our judgement conforme to yours : which as yet ye have not done . 5. Thirdly : ye say , your desire is , that both of us keep our meaning of the negative Confession , according to our diverse measures of light , and only promise forbearance : which , ye say , we may doe , because that we think the points controverted , to be indifferent : we answere , that ye still flee the point in question : for it is another thing for us , to keep our meanings , and another thing for us , to swear a Covenant , when we are not perswaded of the trueth thereof . Ye might , and may still enjoy your meaning for us : but how we can keep our meaning , and subscrive your Covenant , we see not ; since we think the one repugnant to the other . Neither is it forbearance only that is required , as we have shown before ; nor yet can we swear forbearance , the Law standing still in vigour , and Authority requyring obedience . Lastly : we think not all the points contraverted , to be indifferent , as was before declared . 6. Thus it may appear , how ye have dealt with our Sorites , as ye call it . The like dealing we find anent our Dilemma ; the hornes whereof , ( as ye speak ) ye labour to turn against our selves , by asking . To which of the members of the distinction , we referre Pearth Articles and Episcopacy ? If say ye , they were abjured in the negative Confession , we are perjured for the practising of them : and if left indifferent ▪ by that Confession , we may , notwithstanding of that Confession , forbear the practise of them . First , Your Question is not pertinent : For the distinction is not ours , but yours . And to what purpose is it to you , to know , to what member of your distinction , we referre the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy ? Secondly : There is no strength in either of the Hornes of your Dilemma : For , by turning it wrong , you have made it your own . The one horne is , That if the Articles of Pearth , and Episcopacy , be left indifferent , by the short Confession , we may forbear the practise of them . First , This meeteth not the horne of our Dilemma , which was , if we be not tyed , by the negative Confession , to the ommission of these things ; then why have ye , in all your writings against us , exprobrated to us , Perjury , for violating of the Oath contained in that Confession ? To this no word by you is answered here . Secondly : Suppone these things were left indifferent by the negative Confession ; yet may we not forbear the practise of them : because , since that Confession , Lawes have passed on them ; which remaining in vigour , require our Obedience as we said before . 7. The other horne of your Dilemma , is , that if these points were abjured for ever , before Pearth Assembly , then wee , who practise them , are perjured . To which we answere , That it followeth not : for we never did swear to that negative Confession . And therefore , though these points were abjured therein , yet are we free from all guiltinesse of Perjury . And in the mean time , ye have not resolved , how he who is perswaded , of the lawfulnesse of those points , can swear the negative Confession , if by it the Swearer be tyed , to the abjuring of those points , which was the other part of our Dilemma . Thus if ye will consider rightly , ye may perceive , that , our Dilemma standeth unmoved , with the hornes of it still towards you . Ye farther insinuate , that our Reasons , are not solide and grave , but velitations of such a sort as ye looked not for . Let the judicious Reader , pronounce his sentence of this ; only we wish , that ye had chosen rather to satisfie , then to contemn our reasons . That which ye here againe adde , concerning the change of Cōmissioners ▪ is answered in our fourth Duply . 8. To give light to your former discourse , ye subjoine a distinction of discipline , into three members : First , ye say , it is taken for the rule of Government of the Church , and censure of manners , by office bearers appointed by CHRIST : and thus , ye say , it is unchangeable . Secondly , for constitutions of counsells , and Acts of Parliament , about matters of Religion : And thus , ye say , it is alterable , or constant , according to the nature of particular objects . Thirdly : for the ordering of circumstances , to be observed in all actions , divyne , and humane : and so ye say it is variable . First , by these distinctions , the matter seemeth rather to be obscured , then cleared . For ye doe not expresse , in which of these senses the discipline mentioned in the negative Confession , is to be taken , which was the point required of you . 9. Secondly : ye seem by this distinction , to intangle your selves yet more . For , first , if ye take the name of discipline , in any one , or any two of these senses , what say ye to these following words of your dispute against the English Popish ceremmies , Parte 4. cap. 8. Sect. 8. The Bishop doeth but needlesly question , what is meaned by the discipline whereof the Oath speaketh . For howsoever in Ecclesiasticall use , it signifieth often times , that Policie , which standeth in the censuring of manners ; yet in the Oath it must be taken in the largest sense ; namely , for the whole Policy of the Church . For , 1. The whole Policy of this Church , did , at that time ▪ goe under the name of discipline : and those two Books wherein this Policy is contained , were called the Books of discipline . And without all doubt , they who swore the Oath , meaned by discipline , that whole Policy of the Church which is contained in those Books . 10. Secondly , when that little Confession was framed , the government of the Church was only by Presbyters , and not by Bishops : and , therefore , if ye think , that the name of discipline , in that Confession , comprehendeth under it the first part of your distinction , ( which , as we conceive , ye will no● deny ) ye may easily perceive , that we are urged by you , to sweare , and subscrive against our Consciences ; since we think the rule of the government of the Church , which then was to be changeable ; and , that the Government was lawfully changed , by following Assemblies , and Parliaments , from Presbyters , to Bishops . 11. Thirdly : If these Constitutions of Counsells , concerning objects alterable , mentioned in the second member of your distinction , be one , & the same , with ordering of variable circumstā●es ▪ mentioned in the third member ; why have ye distinguished the one from the other ? But , if they be different , then ye grant , that Ecclesiastick constitutions , may be made concerning some alterable matters of Religion , which are not bare circumstances ; which is repugnant to your ordinary doctrine ; whereby ye mantain , that nothing changeable , is left to the determination of the Church , in matters of Religion ; but onely circumstances of Actions . We can not see , how ye can mantain this doctrine , and yet oppose the determinations of the Church , concerning Ceremonies , which are indifferent . 12. We had reason to inquire your judgement , concerning Rites or Ceremonies , which are not of divine Institution , whether they be lawfull , or not , though ye still shun the declaring of it . Since by your Covenant , ye intend a reformation of Religion , and a recovering of the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell , as ye speak ; if ye in your judgement , condemne such Ceremonies , ( as ye insinuate ) we can not expect , but that , if ye obtain your desires , all such Rites shall be expelled and condemned , especially since by this your late Covenant , ye tye your selves to that old Covenant , wherein ye disclaim and detest all Rites brought into the Church , without the word of GOD. Now , we can not concurre with you , for promoving this end , because such a judgement , is plain contrary to ours , yea , contrary to the universall judgement and practise , of the Ancient Kirke , repugnant also to the judgement of the Protestant Churches , and most famous Divines therein , as may appear by the quotations on the margine . But if ye be of the same mind with us , and think , that there are some Rites of that kind lawfull , why doe you hide your minde from us , and others , since the acknowledgement and manifesting of this Trueth , would be no small advancement to your cause , by removing this great offence ? Of Matrimoniall Benediction , and God-fathers in Baptism . 13. As for solemn blessing of Marriage , we asked , what warrand ye had for it , by precept or practise , set down in GODS Word . In your Answere ye insinuate , that it is a blessing of the people commanded in the Law , and more plainly we find this set down in the Dispute , against the English Popish Ceremonies , Part. 3. Cap. 2. Sect. 10. Yet plain it is from Scripture it self , that Matrimoniall Benediction , ought to be given by a Pastor , for GOD hath commanded his Ministers to blesse his People , ( Numb . 6. ) First , who ever before you , did ground the necessity of solemne blessing of Marriage upon these words , Numb . 6. 23. Speak unto Aaron , and unto his sonnes , saying , on this wise ye shall blesse the children of Israel , saying unto them : the LORD blesse thee , and keep thee : &c. Learned Melanchton , was not so well versed in Scriptures , as to see this . For he sayeth in his Epistles , Pag. 328. Ye see that the Rite of the Ancients is , that the Bridegroom and Bride , are joined before the Altar , in the sight of GOD , and with the incalling of GOD. Which custome undoubtedly hath been ordained by the first Fathers , that we may consider that this conjunction was appointed by GOD , and is assisted by Him. 14. Secondly : By this commandement of GOD , to blesse the people , Numb . 6. either there is a necessity laid upon the Church , to blesse Marriages solemnly , or not . If ye say , there is not a necessity , then there is no Commandement of GOD there-anent , for it is necessary to obey GODS Commandement . If ye say , there is a necessity , what say ye then to your friend Didoclave , who in his Altar of Damascus , pag. 866 , affirmeth , that neither the presence of the Congregation , nor blessing of the Minister , is necessary to this action ? And if ye dissent herein from him , ye are holden to prove your opinion , by a necessary consequence from holy Scripture , which we are perswaded ye are not able to doe . 15. Thirdly : the commandement , to blesse the people , is no lesse , if not more generall , then that , 1. Cor. 14. 40. Let all thinges be done decently , and in order : on the which words , both ancient and recent Divynes , doe ground the lawfulnesse of the Ceremonies which we allow . 16. Fourthly : Since that commandement , of blessing the people , is generall , what reason have ye , for not including other civill important Contracts , especially that are performed with a Vow , or promissorie Oath ? A vow made to GOD , is a Covenant with GOD ▪ as well as the Matrimoniall Oath . All Vows and Oaths , are Acts of religious Worship , although they be joined to civill Contracts : and , therefore , if because of the Covenant with GOD , ye blesse Marriage solemnly , ye ought to doe the same , to other civill Contracts , wherein there is the like Covenant , by vertue of an Oath or Vow . 17. Fiftly : Whereas ye say , that though Marriage were a paction , meerly Civill , yet because it is so important , ye would not with-hold Ecclesiastick Benediction from it , notwithstanding of the abuse of Poperie : we would understand , how this agreeth with the current Doctrine of those that are of your minde : for we read in the Abridgement of Lincolne , pag. 17. that we should cast away even such things , as had a good originall , ( if they be not still necessary , and commanded of GOD ) when once they are known to be defiled with Idolatry , or abused by it . So in the dispute against the English Popish ceremonies , Parte 3. cap. 2. Sect. 2. it is affirmed , that Rites , ancient , lawfull , and agreable to GODS Word , should , notwithstanding , necessarily be abolished , because of their superstition , and wicked abuse . Ye adde , that ye will not use Marriage superstitiously , according to the prescript of the Service Book . Ye did not find the Service Book , neither in our Demands , nor in our Replyes ; yet we know not , how ye so often reach unto it . 18. Lastly : of the stipulation of God-fathers in Baptism , instanced by us , in our fift Demand , ye have spoken nothing particularly , either in your first or second Answeres . We have no precept , or example of it in holy Scripture : yea , some of our learned Divynes affirme , that it was instituted by Pope Higynus : and ye will not deny , that it hath been much abused in Popery . How commeth it to passe , then , that this Ceremony is allowed , and used by some of you ? we say , some ; for we are informed , that some of your minde , doe not use it at all . See D. Morton , in his defence of the three ceremonies , pag. 24. The VI. DUPLY. IN your first Answere to our sixt Demand , ye answered nothing to that , which we affirmed concerning the judgement of Divynes , ancient and moderne , who either have absolutely allowed these Rites , which were concluded in Pearth Assembly , or else have thought them tolerable , & such as ought not to make a stirre in the Church : neither did ye touch that , which we objected , cōcerning the venerable custom , and practise of the ancient Church , and the most eminent lights of it , which ye condemn in your interpretation of the negative Confession , contained in the late Covenant . Wherefore , in our Reply to that Answere of yours , we did hold your silence , for a granting of the trueth of that which we said , concerning so many Divynes , ancient and modern , who stand for us . Now in your second Answere to that Demand , ye labour to bereave us of this advantage , and granting that Divynes , both ancient and modern , are against you , concerning the lawfulness of things controverted , ( a thing to be noted by the Reader , and which should make you more sparing in your speaches of us who favour Pearth Articles , then ye are ) ye say , first , that Divines , ancient , and modern , are against us also : and that both these propositions may be true , in respect they are both indefinite in a matter cōtingent . But our proposition concerning the judgement of Divines who stand for us , was more then indefinite . For albeit we said , not , that all are for us ; yet we said , that many , yea , so many ; meaning , that a great many are for us , and against you , in matters of lawfulnesse , and unlawfulnesse , and , consequently , in matters of faith . This expression of the number , ye were glad to passe by : because ye can not say the like of these , who favour your judgement , concerning the unlawfulnesse of those things . For , scarce know we any modern Divines , without his Majesties Dominions , that peremptorly condemn these Rites , as unlawfull , which were concluded in Pearth Assembly : and of Ancients , we mean the Fathers of the Ancient Church , wee know none at all , who are of your minde . How is it , then , that for these your new positions , ye make such stirre , and doe take such dangerous courses in hand . Secondly : Ye say , that almost all Divines allow of such a forbearance , of things indifferent , as ye require of us . But ye will not be able to make this good : For , who of our Divines , have any-where allowed , in subjects such a forbearance of things indifferent , and lawfull , as is conjoined with a totall and sworn disobedience to standing Lawes , against the Prohibition of their Superiours . Thirdly : That which ye say , concerning Innovations already introduced ; to wit , that nothing is required of us , concerning them , but a Forbearance of them for a time ; and , that we may condescend to it , without either disobedience to Authority , or wronging of our Flock ; it is already refuted , in the two former Duplyes . The VII DUPLY. OUr Reason proponed in the seventh Demand , is not sufficiently answered , neither the impediment removed , as we have formerly made manifest , especially in our fourth Duply . Whereas , for removing of our scruple , concerning your interpretation of the short Confession , ye tell us , that ye urge not upon us your meaning , but leave us to our own , till the matter be examined in an Assembly : We answere ; we love not the swearing of an Oath , without clear interpretation thereof ; and we approve not subscription of such a Covenant , with diverse , or doubtfull meanings : neither doe wee think that a convenient mean , for solide Pacification . And as wee are free , in professing our meaning , concerning the Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy ; so we require of you the like plainnesse , or then the reason of your tetyrednesse . 2. The Pearth Articles ye doe unjustly call Novations , if by this name ye understand , things repugnant to our reformed Religion , or forbidden by our publick Lawes : for these Articles are not of this sort . Those of them which we call necessary , the Assembly of Pearth did not conclude as indifferent , ( as ye alleadge ) neither can any such thing be inferred from the words of the Acts of that Assembly . Therefore , we have no reason to change this opinion , as ye would have us to doe . We hold all the five points , to be lawfull , and laudable , and some of them more then indifferent , which also the words of the Synod it self doe imply : so that , without just reason , it hath pleased you to say , that things formerly indifferent , are become necessary ; and what was but lawfull before , and had much adoe to gain that Reputation , is now become laudable . Thus again , we do plainly declare unto you , that the cause of our unwillingnesse to subscrive , or promise forbearance , is both the commandement of Authority , and also the necessity and excellency of some of the things commanded : besides that , we think them all lawfull , and laudable . What we would doe , at the commandement of Authority , in the forbearance of the practise of those things , for the peace of the Church , and Kingdom , shall be declared in our Duply to your thirteenth Answere , wherein ye urge this point again . The VIII DUPLY. VVHereas ye doe remit the Reader , to your former Answere , and our Reply ; we also remit him thereto , and to our first Duply ; hoping that he shall rest satisfied therewith . 2. We have , in those places , answered your Argument , concerning your swearing , the defence of the KING , and his Authority , with a specification , as ye call it ; and have shown , that what hath not been looked to so narrowly , in this matter heretofore , is requisite now , for the reasons expressed in our eight Reply , and first Duply . Concerning the full expression , of the loyalty of your intentions , to mantain the KINGS Person , and honour ; whether , or not , ye have given just satisfaction , to those who are nearest to the KINGS Majesty , ( as ye say ) we referre you , and the Readers , to that , which ye , and they , will find near the end of our first Duply . We wonder greatly , ye should affirme , that we , by craving resolution , doe wrong the KING , and our selves ; or that ye , by giving of it , should wrong them who are nearest his Majestie , and also the Covenant , and the subscrivers thereof . For our requiring of resolution , in this matter of so great importance , is a pregnant Argument of our loyalty towards our dread Soveraigne , and of our care , to have alwise our own consciences voide of offence , towards GOD , and towards Men. And your giving of satisfaction unto us , would have served for farther clearing of your Covenant , and the subscriptions thereof . Your pretence , that by giving us satisfaction , ye should wrong them who are nearest his Majesty , is grounded upon a wrong supposition , as if they had already received satisfaction by your Declaration . 3. GOD is witnesse , we doe not wittingly and willingly multiply doubts , for hindring a good worke , or to oppose against a shining light , ( as ye would have the Reader to thinke of us ) but in all humility , and uprightnesse of heart , doe declare our minde , and doe intimate our unaffected scruples . And we thinke it very pertinent , at this time , to crave resolution of them , and to desire your answere , concerning this maine duety , which is not fully expressed in your Covenant ; wheras a more full expression of it , had been very needfull , at this time . 4. Lastly : Whereas ye complaine , that we took not sufficient notice of you , while ye were amongst us ; ye may easily consider , that our publick charges , and imployments , together with the shortnesse of the time of your abode here , doe sufficiently vindicate us , from any imputation of neglect in that kinde : and our doores were not closed , if it had pleased you , in Brotherly kindenesse , to have visited us : which we ought rather to have expected of you , seeing ye came undesired , to the place of our Stations , to deal with us , and also to deal with our people , against our will , before we had received satisfaction . The IX . DUPLY. AS ye doe referre the Reader , to your former Answers ; so doe we referre him to our former Replyes , and Duplyes . 2. The meaning of the Act of the Assembly of Pearth , citing the wordes of the Psalm . 95. is not ( as ye doe interpret it ) any perverting of the Text , neither tendeth it to inferr thereupon , absolute necessity of kneeling , in all worshipping of GOD , or in this part of his Worship , in the celebration of the holy Communion : but only to inserr the lawfullnesse , and commendable decency of kneeling , in divyne worship ; and that it is such a gesture , as our lawfull superiours may enjoine to be used , in GODS worship ; and that religious adoration , and kneeling , is to be done to GOD only , although they sin not , who use another gesture , where this is not required by Authority , but another appointed , or permitted . 3. We doe not kneel before the Sacramentall Elements , making them the object of our Adoration , either mediate , or immediate : neither doeth the Act of Pearth Assembly import any such thing . But all our Adoration , both outward , and inward , is immediately directed to GOD only , with Prayer , and thanksgiving , at the receiving of so great a benefite . Wherefore , your objecting of Idolatry , against us here , and in your other Treatises , is most unjust . We marvell also , how ye doe here refer us , to those Treatises , which in your twelfth Answer , ye seem to disclaime , finding fault , that any of us should lay hold on them , or build any thing upon them . As likewise ye here alleadge , that the Assembly of Pearth made Kneeling necessary in all points of GODS Worship ; and , consequently , in receiving the holy Eucharist : not remembering , that in your seventh Answere , ye said , the Assembly had concluded the five Articles as indifferent . 4. Concerning the Service-Book , ( which now is not urged ) we have already answered . Neither find we any reason , of your uncharitable construction of us , or of the disposition of the people , as if they were now become superstitious . Nor doeth this time give any just cause of such feares , as are sufficient to overthrow the reasons of that Act of Pearth Assembly . 5. We did not in malice , but in love , say , that such a defence as ye professe here , according to your Protestation , and such meetings and conventions doe require the KINGS consent , and Authority , to make them lawfull , according to our judgement : whereof some reasons we have expressed before in our second Reply , which as yet ye have not satisfied . 6. It seemeth , that ye are either not able , or not willing , to answere particullarly and plainly , to our interrogatories proponed in our ninth Reply : and we would understand some reason , why ye doe so , in such a free and brotherly conference ; seeing although ye doe otherwise interpret our meaning , yet truely we did not propone them to be snares to you , but to obtain satisfaction to our selves and others , for a peaceable end . As for your Questions , which ye throw against us , with plain profession to work us discontentment thereby , we shal here make an answere to them in meekness , and evident demonstration of our peaceable disposition . Questions Answered . 7. YOur first Question , concerning the Service-Book , and book of Canons , is nowise pertinently proponed to us . If we did urge upon you the said books of Service and Canons , as ye doe now the Covenant upon us , we should particularly and punctualy , declare our mind concerning them . 8. To your second Question , we answere , that it is our duety to enquire carefully , what is incumbent upon us by the Law of GOD , and man , towards our Prince . We doe not move questions of state , but doe answere to your propositions , resulting upon matters of state , and we doe labour , as it well becommeth all good Subjects , to be well informed , before we put our hand to any thing , which concerneth our due obedience to our Prince . As for that which here again ye alleadge , of his Majesties Commissioner , and wise States-men , as having received satisfaction from you , we referre you , as before , to our Answere made thereto , in our first Duply . 9. To your third Question , we answer ; our assertion concerning the unlawfulnesse of Subjects their resisting the Authority , of free Monarchs , by force of Arms , even although they were enemies to the Trueth , and persecuters of the professors thereof , can not in the judgement of any reasonable man , import that we have the least suspition of our KING , that either he shall change his Religion , or shall fall upon his religious and loyall Subjects with force of Armes . We have often declared in these our Disputs , that we are fully perswaded of our KINGS Majesties constancy , in profession of the true Religion , and equitable disposition in ministration of Justice . And in testification hereof , we rest satisfied with his Majesties Proclamation , against which ye have protested . 10. To your fourth Question , we answere , because that we doe esteem subscription to your Covenant , neither to be warrantable by GODS word , nor to be a convenient mean for pacification , we hold it our duety , both to with-hold our hands from it , and to dehort our people from it . 11. To your fift Question , we answere : 1. We hold it a wrong ●upposition which ye make , that the Prelates and their followers , are labouring to introduce Popery , and to make a faction . 2. We know our gracious KING , to be so just , and so wise , and so ripe in yeares and experience , that he will no● suffer any of his Subjects , to abuse his Majesties name , in the execution of any injustice . 3. To make resistance by force of Arms , against the KINGS publick standing Lawes , and against his Majesties publick Proclamations , is not ( in our judgement ) a convenient or lawfull way , for defending of the Religion , of the Liberties , and Lawes of the Kingdom , and of the KINGS Authority ; but on the contrary it bringeth scandall upon our profession . See our Reasons in our second Duply . 12. To your sixt Question , we answer , that in all free Monarchies , there is nothing left to subjects , in the case of persecution , by their own Soveraigne Princes , but patient suffering , with Prayers and Tears to GOD , or fleeing from their wrath , as we have at length proved in our second Duply . This doctrine did the people of Alexandria , learne of their holy Bishop Athanasius , as is evident by their own words , in their Protestation , subjoined to the Epistle of Athanasius , ad vitam solitariam agentes . If ( say they ) it be the commandement of the Emperour , that we be persecuted , we are all ready to suffer Martyrdom . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Tom. 1. Oper. Athanas. Pag. 868. Edit . Paris . 1627. As for the nature of the Government of this Kingdom of Scotland , read the Book of King JAMES the sixt of blessed memory , entituled , The true Law of free Monarchies , and the Preface of the first Book of Regiam Majestatem ; where it is expresly said , of the KING of Scotland , that He hath no Superiour , but the Creator of Heaven and Earth , Ruler of all things . This our Answere , neither proceedeth from flattery , neither from any intention , to stirre up Princes against their loyall Subjects , nor from any aime at other worldly ends , ( as ye doe uncharitably judge ) but from our due fidelity to our KING , from our true love to our Countrey , and from our upright desire to the Glory of GOD , and the comfort of our own Souls , in the Day of our Accounts . The X. DUPLY. ALthough we take you to be of the number of those who penned the late Covenant , yet pardon us , to call your Glosses of it in question , so long as ye doe not satisfie our Arguments , which prove them to be contrary to the very words of your Covenant . We have shown , in our Replyes , and now again in our fourth Duply , that the words of the Covenant import a perpetual adherance , to the who●e externall Policy of the Church , as it was Anno 1581 ; and the removing of Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , as of things contrary to the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell . Whence we still inferre , that these who have sworn the Covenant , are tyed by their Oath , to vote against Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy : and , consequently , can not , without prejudice , either dispute , or give out a decisive sentence concerning them , in the intended Assembly . 2. Ye say , ye will not judge so uncharitable of us , as to think us so corrupt , that , in our opinion , since the time designed by us , nothing hath entered into the Church ▪ beside Episcopacy , and the Articles of Pearth , which can be prejudiciall to the liberty and purity of the Gospell . We are glad , that although ye judge uncharitably of us , yet ye judge not so uncharitably : and , although ye think us corrupt , yet ye think us not so corrupt , as not to be sensible of these things . We told you our minde before , in our fourth Duply , concerning these abuses , which ye think to have been occasioned by Pearth Articles : and now we tell you , that if Pearth Articles , and Episcopacy , for these their alleadged consequents , be altogether removed , the benefite which ye think our Church may receive , by removing of them , shall not , in any measure , equall her great losses . The XI . DUPLY. VVEe complained in our Demand , of the uncharitablenesse of your Followers , who calumniate us , as if we were favourers of Popery . And to show how unjust this calumnie is , we declared , that we are ready , to swear , and subscrive , our nationall Confession of Faith , ratified and registrated in Parliament : to which Declaration , we have now added our Oath , which we did swear , when we received the degree of Doctorate in Theologie , and have solemnly again renewed it , Pag. 81. 82. In your Answer to that Demand , ye slighted our complaint , and did not so much as once mention it ; which made us in our Reply , to complain also of you , who have shown your selves so unwilling to give us that testimony of our sincerity in professing the Trueth , which all who know us , think to be due to us . We expected , that in your second Answer to that Demand , this fault should have been amended . But , contrary to our expectation , we perceive , not only that ye are insensible of the grievous injurie done to us , by the calumnious reportes of others ; but also , that ye have busied your own wittes , to enquire , as ye say , in matters , to search , and to try our wayes , and to expisca●e what ye could against us , by the unfriendly testimony of some , who , perhaps , are displeased with us , as Achab was with M●ca●ah , for the freedome of our admonitions . Charity , ye know , thinketh no evill , 1. Cor. 13. 5. and covereth a multitude of transgressions , Prov. 10. 12. 1. Pet. 4. 8. But uncharitable inquisition , and prying into other mens doings , not only discovereth those infirmities , unto which GOD will have every one of us subject , for humbling of us ; but also bringeth even upon good men , a multitude of undeserved Aspersions . Brethren , we intend not to give you a meeting in this ; for our resolution is , not to be overcome of evill , but to overcome evill with good , Rom. 12. 21. And we are glad to suffer this for his cause , whose Trueth we mantaine , pitying in you this great defect of Christian and Brotherly compassion ; and praying GOD , not to lay it to your charge . Wherefore , we will not search and try your wayes , as ye have done ours : but we will reflect our thoughts upon our selves , and see whether or not we be guilty of these things , which ye here reprehend in us . 2. Ye say , first , That we have taken an ample testimony to our selves . But what , we pray you , have we testified of our selves ; but this onely , that in sincere and zealous profession of the Trueth , we are not inferiour to others ; and , according to our measure , have striven to be faithfull in all the dueties of our Calling ? Ye have , indeed , put more into our Apology , and say , that we have praised our selves , from our frequency of Prayer , extraordinary Humilations , and holynesse of Life , and Conversation , &c. For , as ye are loath to speak any good of us ; so ye would have the Reader believe , that we speak too much good of our selves . But in this , as ye wrong us , so ye make the Reader to see , how negligently ye have read and considered our words . For , whereas in the second part of our Reply , we told you , that we have other meanes , and more effectuall , then your Covenant , to use , for holding out of Popery ; mentioning in particular , extraordinary Humiliation , frequency of Prayer , amendement of life , diligence in Preaching , and searching the Scriptures , &c. Ye imagine , that we doe arrogate to our selves , some singularity , in using these means ; not considering , that it is one thing to say , that we may and ought to use these means , and another thing , to say , that we are singular , and eminent , above others , in the diligent use of them . 3. Next : Whereas ye say , that ye were desirous , rather to hear that testimony , at the mouths of others , ( as if ye had never heard our Pains and Labours , for the Trueth , commended by any ) who knoweth not , but in this case , in the which we stand for the present , it is lawfull , and most expedient to men , to vindicate themselvs , and their fidelity in their Callings , from the contempt and calumnies of others . We have in the Scriptures , notable examples of GODS dearest Saints , who in such cases , yea , in other cases also , without any derogation , to their singular humility , did fall out into high expressions , of their own vertuous and pious carriage . Who ever spake so humbly of himself as Paul , who calleth himself lesse then the least of all Saints , Ephes. 3. 8. & yet elsewhere he sayeth , that he was not a white behind the very chiefest Apostles ; and , that he laboured more abundantlie then they all , 1. Cor. 15. 10. 2. Cor. 11. 5. 4. The defects , which by your strict and curious Inquisition , ye think ye have found in us , may be reduced into two points : One is , that we are too sparing in our paines , in Preaching ; and , that we often fill our places with Novices . The other is , that the small pains which we have taken , are not fruitfull . And , to prove this , ye say , that Popery hath no lesse increased in our City , under our Ministerie , then any time before since the Reformation . As for the first of these , to omit that which modesty will not permit us to speak , either of our own paines in teaching , or of yours , it is very well known , that in the case of sickness , and extraordinary imployments in our callings , which but seldom doe fall foorth to us , it is both lawfull , and commendable to see , that our places may be filled , either with some actuall Minister , or , failing of that , with able students of Divinity , approven by publick Authority , whereof your selves can not be ignorant , in respect of your frequent Peregrinations , from your Stations . 5. As for the next point : Although it were true , yet the Parable of the seed sowen in diverse sorts of ground , and the dolorous complaints , which these most painfull and thundering Preachers , Eliah , 1. King. 19. 10. Isaiah , 53. 1. Paul Gal. 1. 6. and 3. 1. yea , of CHRIST himself , Matth. 23. 37. and Luke 19. 41. 42. made of the hard successe of their laboures , may learne you to be more beninge in your censures of us , then ye are . In the mean time , it is known to his Majesty , to the Lords of secret Counsell , and to all the Countrey here ; as also it is evident , by many publick extant Acts of the said secret Counsell , and of our Diocoesian Assemblies , that we have been as diligently exercised , in opposing of Popery , as any Ministers in this Kingdom . Neither hath our successe herein been so badde , as ye have given it out : for since our entry to the Ministry here scarce hath any man been diverted from the trueth , to Popery ; some Papists have been converted , to the profession of the Trueth , and others who were incorrigible , have been forced to depart from this Countrey . Yea , we think , that our successe , in dealing with the Papists , had been undoubtedly greater , if they had not been hardened in their Errour , by your strange and scandalous Doctrins , repugnant to Scripture , and sound Antiquity . 6. That which ye say in the second part of your Answer , concerning the powerfull effects of your Covenant , meeteth not with that which we did object , concerning the unlawfulnes of it . For , that which is not in it self lawfull , can never be truely profitable to any . And Solomon hath told us , that their is no wisdome , nor understanding , against the LORD , Prov. 21. 30. 7. As for the last part of your Answer , we have so often told you that your fear of the inbringing of the Service-Book , and Canons , is causelesse : and ye have so oft denyed this , that it were folly to wearie the Reader any more with this matter . In the mean time , we tell you , that if your Covenant be unlawfull in it self , ( as we still think it to be ) your fear , although it were justly conceived , will never free your Souls of the guiltinesse of it . The XII . DUPLY. TO justifie or excuse your omission , of publick disallowing and condemning the publick disorders , and miscarriages of some who have subscrived the Covenant ; especially the offering of violence to Prelats , and Ministers , in time of divine Service , and in the House GOD , whereof we spake in our twelfth Demand , and Reply : ye answer , first , that ye acknowledge not the Service-Book , for the LORDS Service . Ye might say the same of any Service Book , ( If ye allow the Reasons lately set forth in Print against the Service-Book ) for there a Prescript form of Prayer , is condemned , which directly crosseth the practise of the universall Church of CHRIST , Ancient , and Recent . 2. Ye alleadge , that ye acknowledge not the usurped Authority of Prelats , for lawfull Authority . For ought we can perceive , by the Doctrins of those with whome ye joine , ye acknowledge no lawfull Authority at all in Prelats , above your selves , and other Ministers : and ye seem so to insinuate so much here , by blaming us , for calling them , Reverend and holy Fathers . We are perswaded of the lawfulnesse of their Office , and therefore are not ashamed , with Scripture , and Godly Antiquity , to call such as are advanced to this sacred Dignity , Fathers , and Reverend Fathers . Neither should personall faults , alleadged by you , hinder our observance , till what is alleadged be clearly proven . For , so long as things are doubtfull , we should interpret to the better part , Luke 6 , 37. And it is a rule of Law , that in a doubtfull case , the state of a Possessor , is best ; and , consequently , of him that hither-to hath been in a possession of a good name : as also , that in things doubtfull , we should rather favour the person accused , then him that accuseth . 3. If ye be of this same judgement , with us , concerning the lawfulnesse of their Office , why doe ye not reverence them , as well as we ? But if their very Office seem to you unlawfull , we esteem your judgement contrary to holy Scripture , to all sound Antiquity , and to the best learned amongst reformed Divines . Hear what Melanchton sayeth , I would to GOD , I would to GOD , it lay in me , not to confirm the Dominion , but to restore the Government of Bishops : for I see what manner of Policy we shall have ; the Ecclesiasticall Policie being dissolved : I doe see , that hereafter will grow up , a greater tyrannie in the Church , then ever was before . And again , in another Epistle to Camerarius , he sayeth , You will not beleeve how much I am hated , by those of Noricum , and by others , for the restoring of Iuridiction to Bishops . So our Companions fight for their own Kingdom , and not for the Kingdom of CHRIST . So in other places . See Bucer , de Regno CHRISTI , Pag. 67. 4. Thirdly , Ye alleadge the zeal of the People ; by reason whereof ye say , that it was nothing strange , that in such a case , they were stirred up to oppose . Suppone they had opposed , yet , that they should have so opposed , as to have offered violence to sacred Persons , Prelats or Ministers , who are spirituall Fathers , seemeth to us very strange , for all that hitherto ye have said . There is no zeal , without the extraordinary instinct of GODS Spirit , which can warrand men destitute of Authority , to lay their hands on such persons . Touch not mine anoynted , and doe my Prophets no harme , sayeth the LORD , Psal. 105. Let all things be done decently , and in order , sayeth S. Paul , 1. Cor. 14. 40. GOD is not the author of confusion or timult , but of peace , sayeth that same Apostle there , verse 33. To this purpose Gregorie Nazianzen in his 26 Oration , speaking of the chief causes of division in the Church , sayeth , One of them is unrulie , ferventness without reason and knowledge , and that another is , Disorder and undecencie , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 5. The Sonne should account the person of his Father sacred , ff . de obsequiis , Leg. 9. So we ought also to esteem of our spirituall Fathers : and , therefore , to offer injury to their persons , and that , in time of divine Service , must needs be a grievous sin . In the Novell Constitutions of Iustinian , Authent . Collat. 9. Tit. 6. Novella 123. de Sanctiss . Episcopis , &c. Cap ▪ 31. there is a remarkable Law to this purpose , cited upon the Margine . The like Law we find in Cod. Iustin. Lib. 1. Tit. 3. de Episcop . & Clericis Leg. 10. Now although in these imperiall Lawes , the sanction be severe , yet we wish no such severity to be used amongst us , but praying GOD , to forgive them who have transgressed : We desire them to consider , that anciently amongst Christians , such doings were greatly disallowed . 6. Chrysostom , speaking of the reverence due by people to Pastors , sayeth , A man may now see , that there are not so great s●offs and reproaches , used by the unfaithfull , against the Rulers , as by those that seem to be faithfull , and to be joined with us . Let us therefore inquire whence commeth this negligence , and contempt of pietie , that we have such a hostilitie against our Fathers . There is nothing , there is nothing that can so easilie destroy the Church , as when there is not an exact jointure of Disciples , to their Masters ; of children to parents , and of them that are ruled , with their Rulers . He that but speaketh evill against his brother , is debarred from reading the divine Scriptures , ( for what hast thou to doe to take my Covenant in thy mouth sayeth the LORD ; and subjoineth this cause , Thou sittest and speakest evill of thy brother , ) and thinkest thou thy self worthie to come to the sacred porches , who accuseth thy spirituall Father ? How agreeth this with reason ? For if they who speake evill of Father or Mother , should dye , according to the Law ; of what judgement is he worthie , who dare speake evill of him who is much more necessarie , and better , then those Parents ? Why feareth he not , that the Earth should open , and swallow him , or that thunder should come from Heaven , and burn up that accusing tongue ? See him also , Lib. 3. de Sacerdotio , Cap. 5. & 6. 7. In the next place , ye say , that the keeping of GODS House , from pollution and superstition , belongeth to Authority , to the community of the faithfull , and to every one in his own place , and order : but , certainly if every one , or all the community , keep their own place , and order , they can doe nothing in this , by way of force , without , far lesse against Authority . Hence Zanchius , in his first Book of Images , Thes. 4. sayeth , Without Authority of the Prince , it is lawfull to none in this Countrey , to take Idoles out of Churches , or to change any thing in Religion : he that doeth so , should be punished , as seditious . This he confirmeth by reason , and by the testimony of S. Augustin , Tom. 10. de Sermone Domini in Monte , Homilia 6. And a little after , he subjoineth ; Augustin handleth this Argument piouslie , he dehorteth his people , from such a practise , and sayeth , That it is pravorum hominum , & furiosorum circumcellionum . 8. As for your vehement accusations and threatnings , ( here , & Answer 14 ) against the writer of the late Warning to the Subjects in Scotland , ye may easily perceive , by the printed Edition of that WARNING , and by the Printed Editions of our Replyes , that , that offence is taken away . And now , reverend Brethren , why are ye pleased thus to digresse from the matter in hand , to waken and hold on foot , personall quarrels against your brother , by digging up buried words , and renewing haske interpretations thereof , contrary to his loving intentions , and after that himself , for satisfaction to all men , hath so publickly disallowed and abolished these words ? This uncharitable dealing , can bring no advantage to the cause which ye mantain , but rather maketh it the more to be disgusted , in consideration of your too great eagerness to stir up hatred against your neighbour , and to work him trouble ; whome ye ought not to persecute with implacable wrath , which worketh not the righteousnesse of GOD ; nor to exasperat against him his other dear Countrey-men : but rather , as well beseemeth your profession and calling , ye ought to exhort them to the most favourable construction of things , and to christian placability , and to the entertaining of their wonted loving affection towards him . As for these our present questions , we desire Theologically onely , and peaceablie , to conferre of them with you , or any other our reverend Brethren , of our own calling . 9. Ye say that Master Knox spared not to call Kneeling a diabolicall invention . If ye allow this saying , how can it be , that in your Covenant , intended for removing of Innovations , and recovering of the purity of the Gospell , ye expresly aimed not at the abolishing of this ceremony , which is so hatefull in your eyes ? But if ye doe not approve this his saying , why did ye not choose rather , in charity to cover this escape of so worthy a personage , then openly to blaze it abroade ? 10. Ye have needlesly drawn into your discourse , mention of Irenicum . Of which work , for mittigation of your unpeaceable censure , be pleased to take notice of the judgement , of that most worthy Pastor , and most grave and learned Divine , D. Iames Usher , Arch-Bishop of Armach , Primate of all Ireland , in this his Epistle written to the Author . VIR EXIMIE . SUmma cum voluptate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tuum perlegi : eamque Patriae tuae foelicitatem sum gratulatus , quod novum tandem produxerit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , qui eam ipsi praestitit diligentiam & virtutem , quàm olim exteris Ecclesiis ( quum non admodum dissimiles de adiaphoris obortae lites earum pacem perturbarent ) exhibuit ille vetus ; qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nulla salus bello : ipsique bello salus si qua sit , non alio quam pacis nomine ea continetur . Nam & de pace belli Uriam , opinor , à David● aliquando interrogatum meministi . I am verò , pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , scriptum remitto tibi ego 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : sed quod jucundum praebeat spectaculum midianiticorum satellitum inter se manum conserentium , & mutuo isto bello Ecclesiolae nostrae , pacem promoventium . Tu quicquid , hoc est , munusculi , ut ab homine optimè ergate affecto transmissum suscipe , & me ( ut facis ) ama . Pontanae , in Hibernia , III. Id. Decembr . anno reparatae salutis 1632. Tuus in CHRISTI Ministerio conservus JACOBUS ARMACHANUS . Me juvat alma quies , gens haec fera bella minatur , Et quoties Pacem poscimus , arma crepat . ARTH. JONST . Paraph. Psal. 120. The XIII . DUPLY. YE repeat your former Answer , concerning your interpretation of the clause of forbearance , which we have already refuted in our former Replyes , neither doe ye bring here any new confirmation thereof : And therefore all the three scandals , mentioned in our 13 Demand , doe yet remaine unremoved . 2. Although your interpretation were admitted , which we can not admit , yet at least the third ▪ scandall were nowise avoidable therby , ( whatsoever may be supposed concerning the other two , ) and that because of the reason expressed in our 13 Reply ; to which your Answers here are not satisfactory . 1. Ye doe insinuate , that ye think our Oath of obedience to our ordinary , and Pearth constitutions , not lawfull in it self : which we are perswaded is very lawfull . 2. Ye would seem to infer the unlawfullnesse of it , by challenging , the Authority whereby it was exacted ; and alleadging that their is no ordinance made Civill or Ecclesiastick , appointing any such Oath . This reason ( although it were granted ) hath no strength at all , to prove that which ye intend , to wit , that either our Oarh is in it self unlawfull , or that we may now lawfully break it : for our swearing of that Oath is not against any lawfull Authority , either divyne or humane : and in such a case , Oathes concerning things lawfull , ought to be keeped , whether they be required by appointment of a publick ordinance , or not : which whosoever denyeth , he openeth a patent doore to the breaking of lawfull Oathes , in matrimoniall and civil Contracts , and many other cases , daylie incident in humane conversation . Also the exacting of that Oath , was clearly warranded by two Acts of Parliament , viz. Parliament 21. of King JAMES the 6. holden at Edinburgh , Anno 1612. Chap. 1. and Parliament 23. of King JAMES the 6. holden at Edinburgh , Anno 1621. Act 1. 3. Ye take upon you to call in question , with what conscience that Oath was given . How oft , Brethren , shall we exhort you to forbeare judging of other mens consciences , which are known to GOD onely ? Iudge not , that ye be not judged . Matth. 7. 1. 4. Ye alleadge , we can not answer before a generall Assembly for our Oath , and the scandall risen thereupon . No man needeth to be ashamed , before a generall Assembly , or any other judicatory , of his lawfull and due obedience , which he hath given to the publick constitutions of the Church of Scotland , and to his Majesties standing Lawes ; or of any lawfull Oath , whereby he hath promised that obedience . As for the scandall , it was not given by us , but unnecessarily , and unjustly taken , by you , and some others , upon an erronious opinion , obstinatly mantained against the lawfulnesse of the matters themselves . 5. Ye say , that conceiving the Oath , according to our own grounds , none of us will say , that we have sworn the perpetuall approbation and practise of these things , which we esteem to be indifferent , whatsoever bad consequent of Popery , Idolatry , Superstition , or Scandall , should follow thereupon . We answer , 1. These bad consequents are alleadged by you , but not proven . 2. Evils of that kind should be avoided , by some lawfull remedy . And we doe not esteem it lawfull for us , to disobey Authority in things lawfull , although in themselves indifferent : for obedience commanded by the fift Precept of the Decalogue , is not a thing indifferent . There be other means which are lawfull and more effectuall against such evils , as we have specified in our eleventh Reply : 3. We did not swear perpetuall approbation , and practise of indifferent things ; but knowing these things in themselves , to be approvable , we did swear obedience to the publick Laws , requyring our practise in these thinges , so long as the Law standeth in vigour , and our obedience thereto is required by our lawfull Superioures . 4. This course we hold to be more agreable to our duety , then upon private conceptions of scandalls unnecessarily taken , to break off our due obedience to that Authority which GOD hath set over us . 6. Out of our assertion ( Reply 4. ) concerning the administration of the Sacraments in private places , to sick persons , in case of necessity , ye doe collect , that we cannot forbear the practise of these , although our ordinary , and other lawfull superiours , should will us to doe so . And hence ye infer , that herein Pearth Assembly , for which we stand , is wronged by us two wayes : 1. That we differ in judgement from them , about the indifferency of the five Articles : and next , that at the will of our ordinary , and ye know not what other lawfull superioures , we are ready to forbear the practise of these things , which the Assembly hath appointed to be observed . 7. As for your maine Question , Whether a duety necessary by divyne Law , may be , or may not be omitted , in case , our ordinary , & other lawfull superioures , should will us to omit it ? before we answer to it , we must expound what we mean by our other lawfull superiours , because of your jesting pretence of ignorance hereof . We mean hereby , the Kings Majesty , the Parliament , the secret Counsell , and other Magistrates , and ecclesiasticall Assemblies , whereunto we owe obedience in our practise required by them , according to publick Lawes . 8. The Question it self ye doe express more clearly in your Answer to our 4. Reply , wher ye alleadge , that we find some of the Pearth Articles so necessary , that although the generall Assembly of the Church should discharge them , yet we behoved still , for conscience of the commandement of GOD , to practise them . Thus are we brought to this generall Question ; Whether , or no , any thing necessary ( or commanded ) by divine Law , may , in any case , without sin , be omitted when publick humane Authority dischargeth the practise therof ? For resolving of this question , we desire the Reader to take notice of these Theological Maximes , received in the schools , & grounded upon holy Scriptur . 9. Affirmative preceptes , doe binde at all times , but not to all times , but only as place and time require ; that is , when opportunity occurreth . [ Praecepta affirmativa obligant semper , sed non ad semper , nisi pro loco & tempore ; id est , quando opportunitas occurrit . ] But negative Precepts , doe binde at all times , and to all times . [ Praecepta negativa obligant semper , & ad semper . a ] As for example ; A man is not obliedged to speak the trueth at all times ; for he may be some time lawfully silent , but he may never lawfully lie . 10 Of Affirmative necessary dueties , some are the weightier matters of the Law , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] as Judgement , Mercy , and Faith , Matth. 23. 23. Others lesse weighty , such as are those of the Pearth Articles ; which we call necessary , and ye doe reject . 11. The exercise of some affirmative necessary dueties , may be some times omitted , by Authority , without sin , for the publick peace , or some pressing necessity . Thus Moses permitted repudiation of a mans married wife , not fallen into adultery ; neither did he urge strictly the affirmative duety of adherence , and that for the hardnesse of their heart . Wherein Moses had respect to the peace and unity of the Tribs of Israell , as Alexander Alensis observeth in his Summe of Theologie , Part. 3. Qu. 46. Membro 1. Art. 1. & Art. 2. David did not execute , in his own time , judgment against Ioab , for his murthering of Abner , and Amasa , because the sonnes of Zeruiah were too hard for him . Circumcision was omitted , because of the uncertainty of their abode in one place , when the people were with Moses in the Wildernesse . 12. Exercise of ecclesiasticall Discipline , against open obstinate offenders , is an affirmative duety , incumbent , by divyne Law , upon the Pastors , towards those who are committed to their charge . Yet it may , and ought to be forborn , when it can not be used without an open rupture , and unavoidable Schism . Because in such a case the publick peace is rather to be looked to , lest in our inconsiderate zeal to seperate the Tares , we pluck up also the Wheat . And what we can not get corrected by censure , we can doe no more but mourn for it , and patiently wait till GOD amend it , as Augustin proveth at length , Lib. 3. contra Epistolam Parmeniani , Cap. 1. & Cap. 2. & Lib. de fide & operibus , Cap. 5. For in this time ( sayeth Gregory ) the holy Church doeth correct something by fervour , something she tolerateth by mecknes , some things by consideration she dissembleth , & beareth , so that often by bearing & dissembling , she compesceth ( or putteth away ) that evill which she hateth . And Prosp. saith ; for this cause therfor , they most with gentle piety be borne with , who for their infirmity , may not be rebuked . 13. When a doctrinall error ( not being fundamentall ) prevaileth by publick authority in any Church , a private Pastor or Doctor espying it , may lawfully and laudably , sorbear publick striving against it , when he evidently perceiveth , that unavoydable Schism would follow thereupon . In such a case he should content himself , to seed his hearers with that wholesome Milk of the Word , which they may receive , and delay the giving of stronger Food , unto them because of their infirmity : Considering that more necessary and weightier duetie , which he oweth for preservation of order and peace ; and labouring , in a milde and peaceable manner , to cure them . To this purpose belongeth that saying of Gregorie Nazianzen , Let no man , therefore , be more wise then is convenient , neither more legall then the Law , neither more bright then the Light , neither more straight then the Rule , neither higher then the Commandement . But how shall this be ? If we take knowledge of decencie , and commende the lawe of nature , and follow reason , and despise not good order . ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) And that of the ancient Church of Lions in France , near eight hundreth years agoe ; Who doeth not calmlie and peaceablie moderate that which he thinketh , but is readie incontinent to contentions , dissentions , and scandalls , although he have not an hereticall sense , most certainlie he hath an hereticall minde . 14. Divine Institution , by the Ministery of the Apostles , craveth Deacons , ordained by imposition of hands , for all their life time , Acts 6. Yet in our reformed Church of Scotland we have no such Deacons . Which oecomenicall defect , necessitated by detention of Church mantenance necessary for their sustentation , we hope shall not be imputed to our Church , as sin , so long as she despiseth not that Institution , and acknowledgeth , and lamenteth , this deficiencie , and endeavoureth , by peaceable lawfull means , to have it ●emedied . 15. Although some affirmative Dueties , necessary by divine precept , doe give place , sometimes , to other more weighty , and more pressing dueties , ( as the saving of a stranger may be omitted , for saving my father or my brother , or my son , out of the same danger , when I am able onely to save one of them . And many such like examples doe occurre : ) yet it is never lawfull to condemn or oppugn such Dueties , as evill , or superstitious , or scandalous in themselves , neither to rank them amongst things in themselves indifferent . 16. Hence we doe inferre , that notwithstanding of the necessity of those of the Pearth Articles , which we call necessary , yet sometims the practising of them , may become not necessary , and the omission thereof not sinfull , publick authority , & necessity of the peace of the church , so requiring . Some time indeed , the omission of a thing prescrived by an affirmative Divine or Humane Law , may befaultlesse : But it is never lawfull for Subjects , to transgresse the negative part of the divine Precept , by resisting with force of Arms , that power whereunto GOD hath subjected them , and to which he hath forbidden them , to make such resistance . Neither is it at any time lawfull , for Pastors and Teachers , to teach erronious Doctrine . 17. Ye doe attribute to us , as a great absurdity , that at the will of our ordinary , and other lawfull Superiours , we are ready to forbear the practise of these things which the Assembly hath appointed to be observed . And this ye inferre from the necessity of administration of the Sacraments , sometimes in private places , according to our judgment . Certainlie , ye will have much adoe , to make good , by right Logick , this your inference from such an Antecedant . But to speak of the matter of the Consequent , for satisfaction to the Reader , we find no such absurdity in it , as ye seem to proclaim . For , if some Dueties appointed by divyne Law , give place sometimes to other weighty dueties , such as is the keeping of publick peace and good order , as we have already shown , much more may a thing , notwithstanding of any humane Law appointing it to be observed , befor these respects omitted , at the will & direction of those superiours , to whom we ow our obedience required by that humane law , & who have power to dispence with our practise in that part . The XIV . DUPLY. IF the words of the Covenant be plaine , ( say ye ) concerning the meer forbearance ▪ and speak nothing of the unlawfullness , no mans thoughts can make a change . But we have given our reasons , which justly move us to require greater plainness ; neither have we as yet received satisfaction , concerning those reasons . 2. In our 14 Reply , we said , that your Band of mutuall defence against all persons whatsoever , may draw subjects , perhaps , to take Aimes against their King , ( which God avert ) & cōsequently from that loyaltie of obedience , which they ow to their Soveraign , & ours ; except ye declare , and explaine your selves better , then ye have hitherto done . To this ye answer , that , by this Reply we doe a threefold wrong : one to our selves , another to the subscrivers , the third to the Kings Majesty . But ye have not directly answered to the point proponed by us . 3. The wrong which ye say , we do to our selvs , is in forging from the words of the Covenāt , impedimēts , & drawing stumbling blocks in our own way , to hinder our subscriptiō . This your wrongous asseveratiō , we justly deny , protesting , as we have often done , that we do walk sincerly in this matter , according to our light , not forging to our selvs impedimēts , nor drawing stumbling blocks in our own way ; but clearly showing the impediments , and stumbling blocks , which the contryvers of the Covenant have laide in our way , by their very incommodious expression , irreconciliable [ in our judgement ] with your exposition . 4. Ye say , we wrong the subscrivers , in changing the state of the Question , and in making a divorce betwixt Religion , and the KINGS Authority , which the Covenant joineth together , hand in hand . We doe nowise wrong the subscrivers , when we propone uprightly our just scruples , as we in our consciences doe conceive them , whereby we are moved to with hold our hands from that Covenant : whereof one is , the fear of unlawfull resistance to Authority , if we should hold to that Covenant ; howsoever ye will not suffer to hear patiently this objection , because in your Covenant ye doe professe , the conjunction of Religion , and the KINGS Authority : which profession of yours , doeth not sufficiently serve for a full answer to our objection , against those other words of that same Covenant , whereupon our scruple did arise ▪ To clear this , we wish you to answere directly ( to this our present Demand : ) whether or no , in case of disagreement , ( which Godavert ) think ye that the Covenanters as obliedged , by vertue of their Covenāt , to make open resistāce , by force of Arms ? If ye think they are obliedged to make resistance , then we desire your Answer to the Reasons and testimonies broght in our 2. Duply , proving the unlawfulnes of such resistāce . But if ye think that they be not oblidged , thē declare it plainly . 5. But most of all , ye say , we wrong the Kings Majesty , in bringing him upon the stage , before his subjects , in whose minds we wold ( as ye do 〈…〉 alleadge ) beget and breed suspitions of opposing the true 〈…〉 aking innovation in Religion , and of dealing with the s 〈…〉 , contrary to his Lawes and Proclamations , and contrary to the Oath at his Coronation . We answer ▪ ●e have not brought , but have found his Majesty upon this unpleasant stage , opposing himself openly to your Covenant , with solemn protestations , against all suspitions of opposing the trueth , or making innovation of religiō , or dealing with the subjects contrary to his lawes & proclamatiōs , or contrary to the oath at his co●●natiō . this his Majesties declaratiō against which ye have protested , we have willingly received , & do truely believe it . 6. What the most honourable Lords , of his Majesties privy Counsell have done , cōcerning his Majesties last proclamation , & upō what motives , their Hs. themselves do know , & his Majesties high Cōmissioner , hath publickly declared in his printed Manifesto , contrary to some of your asseveratiōs , cōcerning the proceeding of that honorable boord . 7. Ye profess here , that , it becōmeth you , to judge charitably of his Majesties intentions , altho ye disallow the Service Book , and Canons , as containing a reall innovation of Religion ; and doe affirme , that the intention of the Prelats , & their associats , the Authors and contrivers of the books , is most justly suspected by you . We have told you already , that , concerning the matters , contained in those books , it is not now time to disput , the books themselvs being discharged by his Majesties proclamation , and a royall promise made , that his Majesty will neither now nor herafter , press the practise of the forsaid Canōs & Service book nor any thing of that nature , but in such a fair & legall way , as shall satisfie all his Majesties loving subjects ; & , that his Majesty neither intendeth innovation in Religion or Lawes . As for the intentions of his sacred Majesty , we do heartily & thankfully acknowledge them , to be truely conforme to his Majesties gracious declaration , in that his last Proclamation . And , indeed , it becommeth both you and us , to think s● of them . Neither do we take upon us , to harbour in our breasts , any uncharitable suspition , concerning the intētions of those others of whom ye speak ; seeing they stand or fall to their own Master , and the thoughts of their hearts are unknown , both to you and us : and in a matter uncertaine it is surest to judge charitably . Yea , we have ma●●y pregna●● Arguments to perswade us , that those reverend Prelates , and their Associates , had no such intention , as ye judge . 8. Ye make mention of three wrongs , done by us to you : the one , in the Warning , whereof ye have an answer already given in our 12. Duply , where ye did use great exaggerations , then either the intentiō of the warner did merit , ●● became your chartiy and profession . And by your repetition of it in th●● place , ye show , that ye have too great delight to dwell upon such expostulations , wheras theologicall reasons of the matter in controversie , would better become you in such a Disput. The second wrong is , that ( as ye alleadge ) we have wronged you , in with-holding our hand and help from so good a cause , of purging Religion , & reforming the Kirk , from so many gross abuses , and opposing all those who have modestly laboured for Reformation . But certainly , the wrong is done to us by you , in that ye do , without warra●● of Authority , obtrude upon us , and those cōmitted to our charges , the swearing of an Oath , which is against our own consciences : and because of our just refusall & opposition , ye do wrong us also , in misinterpreting our pious and upright meanings , and in making and stirring up collaterall , and personall quarells against us , and threatning us therwith . Thus ( if GOD by his special grace did not uphold us ) might we be driven , by worldly terrours , to do against the light of our own consciences . 9. The third wrong , wherwith ye charge us , and for the which ye do infinuate , that we may fear trouble , is ( as ye alleadge ) in our speaches , in publick , and private , and in our missives , &c. Hereunto we answer , ●● in our former Replyes , that whensoever it shall please you , to specifie these speaches , we hope to give you , and all peaceably disposed christians , full satisfaction , and to clear our selves of that imputation ; so that none shall have just reason , to work us any trouble . In the mean time , if our ing●nuity would permit us , ( as it dothnot ) to think it a decent course , to make use of hearkeners , and catchers of words , and to wait for the haulting of our Brethren , some of your own speaches might be represented unto you , wherein ye would finde weaknesse . 10. As for these owtward , or externall Arguments , which ye bring here , to prove your Covenanting , to be the work of God , from the success of your enterprize , from the multitude of subscrivers , and from their contentment , & from their good carriage , ( which we wold wish , in many of them , to be more charitable , and peaceable , and so more christian , then it is ) we cannot acknowledge , to be a Cōmentary written by the Lords own hand , ( as ye pretend ) in approbation of your Covenant ; unless ye first clearly show us the text or substance of your Covenant , to be written in the holy Scriptures , in all points therof ; especially in those points , wherin ye and we do controvert , and which only , at this time , can be pretended against us , seeing we make oppsition only in those points . And we wish heartily , that leaving these weak nots of Trueth , to the Papists , chief acclaimers of them , amongst christians , ( that we speak nothing of aliens from christianity ) ye would be pleased to adhere , with us into the holy Scriptures , as the only sure & perfect rule of true Religion , and the heavenly Lamp , which God hath given us , to show us the way of trueth & peace : wherin the GOD of Trueth and Peace direct all our steps , for JESUS CHRIST our Saviour , who is our Peace : To him be Glory for ever : Amen . JOHN FORBES of Corse Doctor and Professor of Divinitie in ABERDENE . ROBERT BARON , Doctor and Professor of Divinitie , and Minister in ABERDENE . ALEXANDER SCROGIE , Minister at old Aberdene , D. D. WILLIAM LESLIE , D. D. and Principall of the KINGS Colledge in ABERDENE . JA : SIBBALD , D. of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE AL : ROSSE , D. of Divinitie , and Minister at ABERDENE . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A69753-e9570 Lōd . edit . ann . 1616 pag. 200. 201. XII . Tabularum fragmenta de officio consulis . Regio imperio duo sunto : iique praeeundo , indicando , consulendo praetores , judices , cōsules appel lantor : militiae summum jus habento , ne mini paren to . Salus populi suprema lex esto . a Quid ergo turbamini ? volens nunquam vos deseram , coactus repugnare nō novi . Dolere potero potero slere , potero gemere ; adversus arma , milites , Gothos quoque , La●rhymae mea arma sunt . Talia enim munimenta sunt sacerdotis . Aliter nec debeo nec possum resistere . b Non ego mi vallabo circumfusione populorum . — Rogamus , Auguste , non pugnamus . — Tradere Basilicam non possum , sed repugnare non debeo . Interest enim quibque causis ▪ quibusque authoribꝰ homines gerenda bella suscipiant : ordo tamen ille naturalis , mortalium pa●i accomodatus hoc poscit , ut suscipiendi belli authoritas , atqu● , consilium penes Principem sit . Aug. Lib. 22. contra Faustum , Cap. 75. Hugo Grorius , de jure belli & pacis , l●b . 1 cap. 4. num . 6. Averroe● 5. Metaphys . comment . 6. See Hugo Grotius , de Iure belli & pacis , Pag. 66. where he citeth sundry anciēt Authors . Rivet , in his Iesuita vapulans , Cap. 13. Ambrose in obitum Val●tiniani . See Doctor Field in his 3. book of the Church . Cap. 32. Altare Da mascen , p. 828. and 853. Re-examination of the Assemblie of Pearth , pag. 227. In regulis juris in sexto Reg. 42. Gregorie Nazianz. Orat. 40. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Upō these wordes , Nicetas his Interpreter , speaketh , thus ; Baptismum suscipe quamd●u minime circum te pugnant is qui te baptismi aqua tingere parat , & qui poecuniarum tuarum haeres futurus est . Ille videlicet studiose age●s atque contendens ut ea quae ad vitae exitum necessaria sunt , suppeditet , hoc est , ut te salutari aqua tingat & dominicum corpus impertiat , hic contra ut testamento haeres scribatur . Consilium Nicenum , Can. 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Balsamon his wordes are , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Altare Da ma●cen . p. 341. disp . against the English Popish Ceremonies , Part. 3. Cap. 1. See thē Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies , part . 3. cap 7. sect . 5. The late Confession of Helvetia , cap. 27 Confession of Bohem. cap. 15. English Confession , art . 15. Cōfession of Auspurg . art . 15. art . 7. Confession of Wirtemberg . art 35. Confession of Sweveland , cap. 14. Calvin . Institut . lib. 4. cap. 10. §. 30. Oecolampadius Epist. Lib. 4. pag. 818. Zepperus Polit. Eccles. pag. 138. 142. 143. Zanchius , in quartum praeceptum . Melanchton , in many places . &c. See Peter Mart. on the 6. chap of the Epistle to the Rom. & Gerardus , in Loc Theolog. Tom. 4. Altar . Da. masc . pag. 120. Disp. against the English Popish Ceremonies , part , 3. cap 8. digress . 1 Favorabiliores rei potiꝰ quā actores ha bentur . ff . Lib. 50. Reg. 125. Melan. in an Epistle to Camer . in Concil . Theolog. Melan. in an Epistle to Camer . in Concil . Theol. pag 90. Quo jure enim licebit nobis dissolvere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ecclesiasticam ? Si Episcopi nobis concedant illa , quae aequum esse eos concedere ? Et ut liceat , certe non expedit . Semper ita sensit ipse Lutherus , quem nulla de causa , quidem ut video , amant , nisi quia beneficio ejus sentiunt se , Episcopos excussisse & adeptos libertatem minime utilem ad posteritatem . So in an Epist. ad Episc. Augusten . Deinde velim hoc tibi persuadeas de me deque multis aliis nos optare ut pace constituta Episcoporum potestas , sit incolumis . Et hanc plurimum prodesse Ecclesiis judicamus ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Si quis cū sacra mysteria celebrantur , in sāctam Ec clesiam ingrediēs , Episcopo , aut clericis aut Ministris aliis Ecclesiae injuriam aliquam inferat : jubemus hunc verbera sustinere , & in exilium mitti . Si verò haec sacra Ministeria conturbaverit , aut celebrare prohibuerit : capitaliter puniatur . Hoc ipso & in Litaniis , in quibus Episcopi , aut Clerici reperiantur custodiendo . Et siquidem injuriam solum fecerit , verberibus exilioque tradatur . Si verò etiam Litaniam concusserit , capitale periculum sustinebit : & vindicare jubemus non solum civiles , sed etiam militares judices . In his secod homilie upon these wordes salute Priscil la and Aquila . Tom 5. Edit . Savil . pag , 327. Aug. Lib. de unico Baptismo , Cap. 13. O quam de testandus est error hominum , qui clarorum virorum quaedam non recte facta laudabiliter se imitari putāt â ▪ quorum virtutibus alieni sunt . Euseb. lib. 5. Hist. Eccles. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Sam. xi . 7. Judic . vii . xxii . a Thom 2a 2ae , qu. 71 art . 5. ad 3m Bonavent . in 1. sent . dist . 48. art . 2. qu. 1. in Resolutione . Scotus in 3. sent . dist . 9. qu. unica , num 4. Gregor . respons . ad 7. interrogationem Au gustim Cā tuariensis . In hoc enim tempo re sancta Ecclesia quaedam per favorem corrigit , quaedam per mansuetudinem tolerat , quaedam per considerationem dissimulat , at que portat , vt saepe malum quod adversatur , portando & dissimulando compescat . Prosper , Lib. 2. de vita contemplativa , Cap. 5. Propter hoc ergo , blanda p●etate portandi sunt , qui increpari pro sua infirmitate non possunt . Nazianz. Orat. 26. tom . 1. pag 446. and 447. Edit Graecol . pa ris . Anno. 1630. Eccles. Lugd. Lib de tenenda veritate Scripturae post mediū ( in Bibl. Patr. Tom. 4. Part. 2. Edit . 4. ) Qui non tranquillè & pacifice moderatur quod sentit , sed statim paratus est ad contentiones , dissentiones , & scandala , etiamsi non habeat Haereticum sensum , certissime habet Haereticum animum . Thom. 2a 2ae qu. 43 art . 7. prop ter nullum scandalum quod sequi videatur , debet homo praetemissa veritate , falsitatem decore ▪ Hieronym . Apologia adversus Russinum quae incipit Lectis literis , prope sinem . T●libus institutus es Disciplinis , ut cui respondere non potueris , caput auferas ; & linguam , quae tacere non potest seces ? Nec magnopere glorieris , si facias quod Scorpiones possunt facere , & Cantharides . Fecerunt haec & Fulvia in Ciceronem , & Herodias in Ioannem : quiae veritatem non poterant audire : & linguam veriloquam d●●riminali acu confoderunt . — Adversum impiissimos Celsum atque Po●phyrium quanti scripsere nostrorum ? Quis omissa causa , in superflua criminum objectione versatus est .