The common salvation contended for, and the faith which was once delivered to the saints· Or, An answer to a book called a plain answer to eighteen queries of Iohn Whitehead, put forth by William Kays, who calls himself minister of the Gospel at Stokesly; wherein he hath perverted the faith once delivered to the saints, and pleads for those things which the Scripture declares against, and so he is made manifest, not to be a minister of the everlasting Gospel, but preachesanother [sic] Gospel. The queries laid down, and the substance of his answer, with a reply to his answer. / By one who is a friend to all, who wait for the appearance of Iesus Christ without sin to salvation, known to the world by the name. Francis Howgill. Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A86648 of text R18577 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E824_3). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 55 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 10 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A86648 Wing H3155 Thomason E824_3 ESTC R18577 99860428 99860428 112548 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A86648) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 112548) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 125:E824[3]) The common salvation contended for, and the faith which was once delivered to the saints· Or, An answer to a book called a plain answer to eighteen queries of Iohn Whitehead, put forth by William Kays, who calls himself minister of the Gospel at Stokesly; wherein he hath perverted the faith once delivered to the saints, and pleads for those things which the Scripture declares against, and so he is made manifest, not to be a minister of the everlasting Gospel, but preachesanother [sic] Gospel. The queries laid down, and the substance of his answer, with a reply to his answer. / By one who is a friend to all, who wait for the appearance of Iesus Christ without sin to salvation, known to the world by the name. Francis Howgill. Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669. [2], 17, [1] p. Printed for Giles Calvert, and are to be sold, at the Black-spread-Eagle, at the west-end of Pauls., London, : [1655] A reply to: Kaye, William. A plain answer to the eighteen quæries of John Whitehead, commonly called Quaker. Thomason received his copy 14 January 1654 [i.e. 1655]. Annotation on Thomason copy: "Jan. 14 1654". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Kaye, William. -- Plain answer to the eighteen quæries of John Whitehead, commonly called Quaker -- Early works to 1800. Whitehead, John, 1630-1696. Society of Friends -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800. A86648 R18577 (Thomason E824_3). civilwar no The common salvation contended for, and the faith which was once delivered to the saints· Or, An answer to a book called a plain answer to e Howgill, Francis 1655 10656 10 0 0 0 0 0 9 B The rate of 9 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-05 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-05 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The common SALVATION CONTENDED FOR , And the Faith which was once delivered TO THE SAINTS . OR , An Answer to a Book called a plain answer to eighteen Queries of Iohn Whitehead , put forth by William Kays , who calls himself Minister of the Gospel at Stokesly ; Wherein he hath perverted the faith once delivered to the Saints , and pleads for those things which the Scripture declares against , and so he is made manifest , not to be a Minister of the everlasting Gospel , but preaches another Gospel . The Queries laid down , and the substance of his Answer , with a Reply to his Answer . By one who is a friend to all , who wait for the appearance of Iesus Christ without sin to salvation , known to the world by the name . FRANCIS HOWOILL . LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , and are to be sold , at the Black-spread-Eagle , at the West-end of Pauls . The common SALVATION CONTENDED FOR , And the faith which was once delivered TO THE SAINTS . FIrst , as to the Title of thy Book , thy plain answer as thou calst it ; thou art plainly made manifest to be among the false Prophets , and the Scribes and Pharises , and the false Brethren , which the Lord sent his true Prophets to bear witness against , and which Christ cryed wo against , and the Apostles exhorted them who were in the faith , to turn away from : and art one that is gone out into the world , separated from the light , from the life , from the practice of all the holy men of God , who spoke forth the Scripture , as they were moved by the holy Ghost ; had they declared against all these things that thou art pleading for , like Demetrius , and yet thou wilt tell of the Scripture being thy rule , thy rule shall try thee , and thou shalt be laid to it ▪ and it will condemn thee , and the life of all the Saints , and the practice of them who dwelt in the light , will bear witness against thee : thy hidden mysteries which thou speakst , are seen by the invisible eye of God , and thy deceit , and thy adding to the Scriptures , and thy perverting of Christs words and thy imaginations upon their words , who dwelt in the light , and one day thou shalt witness the Lord who is just , will plead with thee for it , when by thy serpents wisdom , which is in the curse , and in the disobedience , and thou pleadst expresly against Christs own words , and holdst up the types which was in the first Covenant , and yet wilt not act according to the first Covenant , and so art one that denyes Christ the substance , the everlasting Covenant the oath of God ; and yet calls thy self a Minister of the Gospel , thy Gospel he and all that knows his voice will deny thee , and it who teaches for doctrine , the traditions of men , and sets up an image of many mixtures , that all may fall down and worship , which thou hast built and set up in thy sensual carnal wisdom , and would have all to worship the image of the beast , that sits upon many wa●ers ; but the Lord i● risen to cut it down , and stamp upon it , and grind it to dust , and the whirlwind of the Lord shall blow it away , and thou and all who hath worshipped the Beast shall be broken by him who is set for the rise and fall of many in Israel , and all those things that thou hast set up in thy carnal mind , and calls them the Ordinances of God ; shall become as the broth of abominable things , and as the slaying of a man , and all who worship their own imaginations , both the circumcised , and the uncircumcised will the Lord cut off together , for the Lord is arisen to plead with all the enemies of Zion , and his sword shall be fatted with the blood of the slain ; for prophaness is gone forth from the Teachers of this Nation , who abide not in the doctrine of Christ to the ends and costs thereof , and the Lord is grieved , and the earth shall disclose her blood , and the slain shall no longer be covered , but the deceiver of the Nations shall be cast forth , and great shall be the lamentation of the Merchants of Babylon and Iesabel that hath slain Prophets , now is suffered to prophesie , and many are deceived by her witchcrafts , but she shall be cast into a bed of sorrow , and she shall be dashed in pieces ; and the dogs shall lick her blood , for behold he is risen who is King of Kings , and he makes war in righteousness , and his name is called the Word of God ; and out of his mouth proceeds fire that shall consume the men of the earth , and all who have not the Image of the Father written in their foreheads . The fire is kindled already in the earth , and the slain is great , and many shall gnaw their tongues for pain , and shall be consumed to ashes ; and he will plead with all the false Prophets and Merchants in Babylou as in the valey of Iehosaphet and his wrath is kindled as in the days of Gibin , and the Heathen shall all perish by the edge of the sword , lamentation and howling , and wo and sorrow , and bitterness shall come upon all who have professed his name and his words , and yet put him to open shame , and denies the end of his coming , which is to redeem his people from their sins , and to present them unto God without spot or wrinkle , which many in this generation , teachers and people are pleading for sin , and yet say Christ is made manifest , but this answer all such shall have , depart workers of iniquity . I. Query . Whether thou have the same eternal infallible spirit that gave forth the Scripture , yea or no ? Answ. Thou saith thou darest not conceal to bear witness with thy conscience that thou hast in some small measure the same spirit which was in the Saints , yet an infallible spirit thou canst not own , and calst it a Popish tenent , and thou saith Christ had such a spirit that did not erre ; and further , thou saith if any Minister as Iohn in the Revelation shall wander , yet the Lord can is he hath a mercy unto his people , make the people to receive nothing but wholsome doctrine . Reply . Here thou hast made thy self manifest unto all that thou hast no measure of the spirit , neither great nor small , not of the same spirit which was in the Saints , for the spirit which the Saints had , was the spirit of Christ , which is the spirit of truth , and infallible , and led them into all truth , and this Spirit thou blasphemer calls a Popish tenent , and so accuses Christ and the Saints : Was it one spirit which dwelt in the Saints , and another spirit that Christ had ? and here thou speakst contrary to the Scripture , as many as are the Sons of God , are led by the Spirit of God , and they that have not the Spirit of Christ , are none of his ; and all who walked in the spirit , and were led by the spirit , were led out of pollution , and the lust of the flesh , and out of error , and out of all deceit ; and they had received the anointing , which was truth , and no lie , and it guided them into all truth : and here thou wouldst divide the Spirit of Christ from the Saints ; and here thy spirit is made manifest not to be that spirit which was in the Saints , and which was in Christ ; but thy spirit is fallible , that saith , that infallible spirit disgraces the Ministery ; such a Minister thou art , that a fallible spirit , and a spirit of error is thy glory : and therefore I say that spirit is not distinct from the Saints , which was in Christ , but one ; there is one spirit by which all the Ministers of Christ were guided , and they were Ministers of the Spirit which was infallible , and true , and eternal , and bore witness of him who was true and eternal ; and thou calst this a Popish tenent , art raised out , and judged by the Scripture not to have the same , and so art no Minister , nor witness of the infallible eternal spirit , but speaks in thy own name : And thou art accusing Iohn , that he did wander , ( as Iohn did in the Revelation thou saith ) and so would make Iohn a wandering star like thy self , which Iude speaks of , who art fallen into the earth out of the firmament , and so would bring reproach upon him , who witnessed the Spirit , and was in the spirit , and dwelt in it ; but thy shame is made manifest , and now the eternal spirit is witnessed , which is infallible , and they will receive thy doctrine no longer , for it is not wholsome , but contrary to the Scripture . II. Query . Whether thou know the rules of Christ , and whether thou wert immediately called by him , to be a Minister or Pastor of the Gospel , yea or no ? Answ. Thou saith so often as thou hast the word rightly divided in opening of the same in any Chapter or verse , so often thou hast heard the the voice of Christ , and thou sayest thou dost not deny the reaching of the spirit to be an extraordinary voice of Christ , and that thou hast heard , and so thou witnesses an immediate call , and yet thou sayest our imperfect actions being made perfect by Christ , thou witnesses an immediate call . Reply . Thou that tells of opening Chapters or Verses by meanings , thou never heard the word of Christ ; and I say unto thee , as Christ said to the Pharisees , which had Moses and the Prophets , they had neither heard his voice , nor seen his shape , and they which have not the word abiding in them , never heard his word ; and therefore if thou never hear of God or from Christ , but what is written without thee , thou never yet heard his Word , the Word of God endures for ever , Chapters and Verses endures not for ever ; but thou art made manifest when thou canst not hear what is already writ , nor receive it , nor understand it without meanings ; and therefore brings their words down to thy reason , and cals that the Word of God ; and thou calst the teachings of the spirit the extraordinary voice of Christ : where reads thou in the Scripture , of an ordinary and extraordinary voice of the spirit ? and here be a witness against thy self , in thy answer to the fourth Query , the fourth page of thy book , to say thou had not known the spirit , nor the anointing but by the Scripture , and the Scripture is not the spirit ; and here thy immediate call is the like , that which is visible and without thee , is not immediate ; and here thou art tryed , that thou knowest nothing at all but by hearsay , and so thou art a falle witness , and thou saith our imperfect actions are made perfect by Christ , when that which is perfect is come , imperfection is done away , but that which thou calls thy imperfect actions he comes not to be perfect , but to destroy , but to thee is a mystery . III. Query . Whether the Word thou preachest , is the same from the beginning which thou hast heard and seen , and hast been taught immediately by the Revelation of Iesus Christ , yea or no ? Answ. The Word that thou preaches is so muth the same thou saith from the beginning , as a River is the same that runs continually from the fountain ; and as God is pleased to appear in his outward administrators . Reply . He who is the fountain is eternal , which was in the beginning , and before all things , and endures for ever , and they who witness him & preach him , and have seen him , and tasted of the water of life , which they were witness of , Iohn the first , but the River which thou drinkest , is as the brooks of Teman , spoken of in Iob , and shall be dried up , and as Euphrates that shall be dried up , and the Kings of the East shall pass over it , and the time is come already , blessed be the Lord for ever , but thy fountain at the best is but the letter without thee , that was since the beginning , and thy old Authors , and thy carnal wisdom , which is in the curse , and this is thy highest attainments , and thy administrations ; if thou hadst not had the letter without thee , thou hadst not known such a thing , and then where had all thy preaching been , as in the fourth page of thy book , thou mayest remember that thou saidst thou hadst not known God , but by that others have left upon record ; and therefore cease from thy divining , for thou canst not witness what thou speakest , but as thou stealest others words IV. Query . Whether ever any shall grow up under thy Ministery , that they shall that no man teach them ; and whether thou own the anointing , or had known there had been such a thing , if the Scripture had not spoken of it , yea or no ? Answ. Concerning thy Ministery , there is no such promise thou sayest made to any mans Ministery . Reply . Here thou hast manifested thy Ignorance of the Ministery of Christ , for they turned many from darkness to light , and from Satan unto God , and it was and is the very end wherefore the Ministers was sent forth , for the perfecting of the Saints , and to lead them from imperfection to persection , and a perfect man in Christ Iesus ; and they were sent out for this end , and are now sent out to direct all minds , and the Apostle laboured and travelled , that he might present them without spot or wrinkle unto God , and in that thou saith , there is no promise to the Ministry of man , in that thou sayest truly , but they which were Ministers of the Gospel , they neither were learned of man , nor had it from man , and so thou acknowledgest thy Ministry to be of man , and so art not a Minister of Christ , but of Anti-christ ; and thou saith if the anointing should onely teach , there would be no flock , here thou art blind and knows nothing ; is not Christ the anointing , and Christs sheep hear his voice , and he putteth them forth , and goeth before them , and he leadeth his flock like a shepheard ; but thou that preaches : for hire , and divinest for money , and they that follow thee are not of this flock : and as concerning thy knowledge of the anointing , thou saith thou mayest say as Paul said of sin , he had not known sin but by the Law , so thou hadst not known the anointing , had not he Scriptures declared it , and thou sayest without it there is nothing to be known , here thou blind guide , thou puts the Scriptures in the room of God , and wouldst exalt it above God , and hast made thy folly manifest that thou never knew the anointing but by hearsay , and if thou hast not had their words , who witnessed the anointing in themselves , thou hadst not known whether there had been such a thing , and thou that knows nothing but without thee , knows nothing at all , and yet the Scripture is able to make wise unto salvation , and perfect the man of God through faith in Christ Iesus , but of the man of Gods estate thou knowest nothing of , who art pleading and holding up those things which the men of God witnessed against . V. Query . Whether thou own Christ to be the light of the world , and hath enlightned every one , yea or no ? VI . Query . Whether thou own the word of Iohn 1. 9. where he witnessed Christ to be the true light which enlightneth every one that cometh into the world ? Answ. Thou saith thou thinkst it s not amiss to declare that Christ is not onely the light of the world through Revelation but in works of miracles , and meritorious sufferings , and as he gives to all creatures the light in their Creation . Reply . Thy thoughts are vain and not as Gods thoughts , he is but one , who is the light of the world , and in him is no darkness at all , the light is but one and the same light in which he lives , the same light the Saints lives in , who are guided by him who is the light , and the light is but one in him that loves it , and in him that hates it ; the one he loves it , and the other he hates it : and thou that art making distinctions of the light , art divided from the light , and so makes many lights by thy imaginations , and so perverts the Scripture . And where readst thou of meritorious suffering of Christ in the Scripture ; nay , thou art so ignorant of him who is the true light , and hath not so much as a form of sound words : and where reads thou of such a distinction of natural and spiritual light in Christ , thy rule shall try thee , and thou shalt be judged by it , for in thy serpents wisdome thou wouldst darken the counsel of God , and rent the Scripture in pieces by thy imaginations , and thou never knewst what the light of Christ was , and never shall comprehend it with all thy distinctions , and though the world is in darkness , yet the light shines in darkness , but this is a mystery , and sealed to thee , and therefore thou wouldst give thy meanings upon their words who were in the light . VII . Query . Whether it is not blasphemy to call the true light of Christ which enlightneth every one that cometh into the world a natural light , and whether they do not deny the Scriptures , that say that every one is not enlightned with the true light , yea or no ? Answ. Is light by just consequence and not otherwise called naturall , so the light may be called supernatural , which is properly called Christs light , and thou tells of ordinary lights . Reply . Thy consequences are denyed , thou art in the Philosophy and vain deceits : where reads thou in Scripture of a natural and supernatural light ? and where reads thou that the light which is in every creature is ordinary light , and ●● thou goe●t on to prove that there is two lights in Christ ; and that the light of Christ is natural and spiritual , and so would make two Christs : is Christ spiritual ? and is that which is his light natural ? a natural man understands not the things of God , but the light which comes from Christ which is but one , not divided , but is spiritual , it leads to an understanding of the things of God , and that which may be known of God is revealed in man , but thou art ignorant and blind , and cannot comprehend it , that which is natural is carnal , and so thou wouldst make a carnal Christ , as one like thy self affirmed , who called himself a Minister of Christ , but he that loves the light is led up out of darkness , to the light of life , and he that hates the light , it s his condemnation , and he is but one that judges and saves his people from their sin : and in the last part of thy answer , thou sayest thou acknowledgest the light of the Law of Christ to be more or less in the light of nature ; here again thy ignorance is made manifest , Paul said , the Law was spiritual , and the Law of the spirit of life in Iesus , had freed him from the Law of sin and death ; was that natural ? is Christ spiritual , and his Law natural ? for shame be silent , and speak not of the Law , it is holy ; is that natural ? and thou speaks of putting the light of Christ under a bushel , and some that destroy Christs light ; thou blind Pharisee , thou art he that puts the light of Christ under a bushel , that walks in those things , and pleads for those things which they declared against : and thou art he that goes about to destroy Christs light which is pure and eternal , and calst it natural and supernatural , when the light is but one , and thou that wouldst divide the light , art divided from it , and walks not by it , and so art in darkness till now : and thou saith further , that as Christ is pleased , he can by the preaching of the Gospel open thine eyes , and turn them from darkness to light : here again thy shame and thy nakedness appears : hast thou professed thy self a Minister of the Gospel , and a teacher , and are thy eyes unopened ? yetart thou yet unturned from darkness unto light ? then darkness speaks and wrote the book , and darkness cannot comprehend the light , and wouldst thou be judging of the light , and of Christ , that is yet in darkness ? for shame own thy condemnation , for what thou hast done in speaking in the name of the Lord , he accepts no such testimony , nor the testimony of them that walk in darkness , and not in the light ; and he will judge thee , who is the light , for perverting the truth in thy dark mind ; and thou confesseth that thou art blind , and thine eyes are not yet opened ; then how canst thou declare of him , whom thou hast neither seen nor heard , and here be a witness against thyself ? VIII . Query . Whether the true light of Christ , which enlightneth every one that cometh into the world , which discovereth all the deeds of darkness , is not sufficient to lead all those that love and follow him into holiness and all truth , seeing Christ who is the light saith that those that follow him shall not abide in darkness , but have the light of life ? Answ. To this thou answers , Yea , it is when it is revealed ; and in thy answer to the third Query , thou saith there is nothing that can be known but by the Scriptures , and so here thou lyes in confusion and Babylon , and puts the letter for the light of Christ , and so art blind indeed , as thou confessed thy eyes were not opened , and thou was not turned from darkness , and thou saith Christs light when it is revealed is sufficient , the light which Christ Iesus hath enlightned every one withal , is made manifest , and convinceth of all ungodlyness and worldly lust ; yea , he which is the Comforter convinceth the world of sin , as the Scripture witnesseth ; neither is their any other light in the world that convinceth the lyer , the swearer , the drunkard , but that light that comes from Christ , and this is the condemnation of them that hate it , and that which declares against unrighteousness is righteous , and that which shews sin is holy , and thou that calls this natural , thy eye is blind , and thy understanding is darkned , and thy ear heavy , and so can neither hear , see , not understand it ; now the natural man understands not the things of God , but the light of Christ in every mans conscience understands by it what is not of God , and by it he comes to see sin , that it is against God , and therefore I am a witness against thee , and against all the hirelings in the world , that by the light , which a measure is given to every one , that he that loves it , It leads to the the light of life , and though the light shine in a naturall man , yet it is not natural , but seven seals , and upon this , to the serpents seed , and he that hates it , and disputes against it , shall never know it , and thou saith , whosoever hath this light of Christ , may see to obey Magistrates and Ministers Lords day , worship , fasting , praying , singing , as well as to avoid blasphemy and profanness , Magistrates we obey in the Lord , and all their just commands , but we deny flattery and deceit , and respecting persons , but honours the power that is of God , and that which is acted by them which is not of God , we suffer for conscience sake , and resists not , but all that thou obeys is without , in flattery and deceit , and hath mens persons in admiration , because of advantage ; and Ministers of Christ we own , who are sent of God , and honours such , but thee and all the hirelings and imitaters , Ianes and Iambres like , we deny , and are bold to declare against you all , who walk contrary to the Saints , and that which you call your rule , and are a generation of hypocrites , and your rule shall judge you all , and thou art tried by it , when all along thy answers , thou pleads against the Scripture , and adds thy meanings , and God will judge thee for it , and thy shame shall be made manifest to all ; the day of the Lord we own , blessed be that day ; but it shall burn as an oven , against all deceivers and hypocrites ; and false Prophets , and this thou shalt know and witness ; and baptism , and watching , and fasting , and praying , and singing , this is witnessed , the same that ever was , and the power of godliness , but we deny thee , and all such as go and baptize , and then preach repentance to them fourty years after ; and fasting ; thou might have been sparing in this , pull out the beam , I speak to thy conscience : how often hast thou fasted , and crossed thy lust , nay all is too little , hay and corn , Calves , Lambs , Eggs and Swines flesh and all is to little for you , but you are still at a want , and removing from one place to another , for filthy lukre , and makes merchandise of souls for dishonest gain , and sues men at the Law , as many can witness in the North of England , and casts those in prison that they call their flock , and so you are as ravening wolves , greedy of your prey , and as foxes in the desert , that devours all that resist you ; and then cries they are not subject to the Magistrates nor Ministers ; and then saith the labourer is worthy of his hire , and brings this for a cloak , when as they never hired you , and yet you seek wages of them , you do not work for , to maintain your luks : Howl ye Caterpillers and Cankerworms , that devours the earth , and spends your time in the lusts of the flesh , and yet accuses others , and as for thy prayers they stink . God hears not sinners , and while thou lives in this nature , pleading for those things which the Scripture declare against , and thy songs shall be turned into lamentation and howling , the dead cannot praise , nor the blind , and thou saith thou art blind and deaf ; what hast thou to preach , or pray , or sing ; and so cease thy gainsaying , the hand of the Lord is against thee , and the Scripture was not given out for thee to prattle on , and for those things thou cals ordinances , thou had not known such a thing , as in the answer to the fourth Query thou confessest , and so let shame cover thy face , and let thy mouth be stopped , and all flesh keep silence , for what is known without , leads no●●o God , but that which may be known of God is revealed in man , Rom. 2. and the time is come , Iesable that hath slain the Prophets , shall be cast into torment , and she shall prophesie no more , and by the light which thou sets all nought , shall thou and all the inchanters and diviners be confounded , to it shall all Nations how , for he from whom it come , is King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , who makes war in righteousness , and is now coming to cut off all by the edge of the sword , who hath prophefied lies in his name , and caused men to abhor the service of the living God . IX . Query . Whether the end of begisting and sending forth Ministers ; is for the perfecting of the Saints , and for bringing them up to his measure or fulness , yea or no ? Answ. Yea. Reply . Here thou thy self , shall be a witness against all the Ministery which long hath been in this Nation , for verily it is so far from perfecting of the Saints , that openly the Ministry pleadeth against it , and cryeth out of those that witness it to be in error ; and here thou shalt stand as a witness for the truth , against thy self , and against all thy Brethren . X. Query . Whether any shall grow up under thy Ministery , to a perfect man , to the measure of fulness , and stature of Christ , yea or no ? Answ. Thou sayest , speaking of thy own hearers , they are at age , ask them , and try them whether there be not some that will not avoid to answer thee ; to which I do Reply , It may be some of thy hearers might be as impudent in speaking lies against their own conscience , as thou art in writing against the Commands of Christ ; but that in their conscience , to which I desire to be known , and to the upright principle in them , to which I desire to speak , will not witness that under thy Ministery , they have attained to perfection , but are yet learning under thee , and never able by thee to come to the knowledge of the truth ; and that which is of God in them , shall witness against thy Ministery , that it perfects none into holiness , and into the Image of God ; and thou sayest thou hopes we may see in the Epbes . 4. 13. Concerning the fulness of the stature of Christ ; and further , by faith , then all our defects , imperfections and sins are not imputed , as therby God may apply the righteousness of Christ , whereby we may see no transgression in Jacob ; we are , and all Believers must come to the measure of the perfection of Christ . Reply . What Paul spoke to the Ephesians we know is true , but what is this to thee , and those who are out of Pauls way and life ; in the way of the false Prophets , and of the Scribes and Pharisees , and the defects and imperfections , and sins , must lie upon your own head , for Christ will be no cloak unto you in your iniquities , to cloak your hypocrisie and deceit ; if you had faith , then should you be purified from Imperfection ; for faith is perfect , and so are all that live by it : and for thy word apply the righteousness of Christ , it is not the language of the spirit of God , which gave forth the Scripture ; for the righteousness of Christ is not to be applied to the head of the wicked , nor to cover wickedness , but to destroy it ; but where sin stands , it will be imputed : for God cannot acquit the wicked , and he that sins is not of Iacobs seed , but of Esaus , and the righteousness of Christ is not unto that birth , and thou and all thy Believers , who art in defects and imperfections , and in your sins , art in the stature and measure of Cain and Ishmael , and not of the stature of the same God ; who art free from all unrighteousness , and defects , and imperfections . XI . Query . Whether they be not Ministers of Antichrist , and never were sent of Christ , that deny perfection which they are sent of Christ , to bring unto , yea or no ? Answ. Nay , they are not . Reply , here thou hast manifested the ignorance and confusion , who in thy answer to the nineth Query , said it yea , it was the end of sending faith , the Ministers for the perfecting of the Saints ; and now then sayest , they are not Ministers of Antichrist , which denyes perfection , and so speaks a plain contradiction , and so out of thy own mouth shalt thou be condemned ; and let all whose eye is open , see and behold thy deceit and blindness , and so also manifest thy selt , that thou was never sent of Christ , who hath brought up none to perfection , But sayest they are not Ministers of Antichrist , that denies perfection , and yet sayes the Ministers of Christ was sent to that end , to bring up unto perfection ; and further thou sayest , that exhorting the world to look to the light that is within them , they shall never come to perfection , none must think or imagine Reply . Here thou hast uttered Blasphemy , and quite contrary to Christs own words , who saith I am the light of the world , he that follows me shall have the light of life , and this is perfection ; and be it known unto thee , and unto all , that no other light we direct or exhorts unto , but the light of Christ within , which is sufficient to lead to perfection as Christ himself saith his light leads to the light of life all that walk in it , and thou saith contrary and so speaks-against Christ , and would make his light imperfect , and not able to lead to perfection , and part found an enemy to him , and mayest stop thy mouth for shame , who art ignorant of the Scripture ; and whilst thou professes it , art found both walking and speaking contrary to it . XII . Query . Whether he that is born of God , do commit sin , yea or no ? and whether he that committeth sin is of the Devil , yea or no ? Answ. He that is born of God is exhorted to repent ; and may be deluded , and thou affirmatively says that those that are born of God may sin , as all the Saints have experienced . Reply . Here thou more plainly hast shewed thy self to be a perverter of the Scripture , and one that speaks contrary to it ; for he who is born of God , is the Image of God , and needs no repentance , he which was born of God was commended by God , and not exhorted to repent , as that Scripture which thou hast named , Rev. 2. shall witness : but he which was fallen from the birth-born of God , was exhorted to repent ; and thou sayest he that is born of God may be deluded , and the Scripture saith it is not possible that the elect should be deceived : and here again thou speaks contrary to the Scripture , and thou sayest affirmatively , that those that are born of God may sin : and here again thou speaks contrary to the Scripture , which saith , he that is born of God cannot sin : Now let shame cover thy face , and let thy own conscience convince thee , that thou art a perverter of the Scripture to thy own destruction , and so art unlearned , and without true experience , for that experience , and those Saints which thou speaks of , which experiences that which is contrary to the plain words of Scripture , which was the experiences of true Saints , is damnable experiences , and servants of the Devil , and cannot be believed by them who are true Saints , and have true experiences , according to the working of the holy Ghost in them : and further thou sayest that Scripture , 1 Iohn 3. 8 , 9. may be hard to be understood , yet taking good notice , the truth is easily reconci●ed , and thou sayest , this is his meaning , that the child of God sinneth not after the similitude , manner , or measure , or nature that the devil & his reprobates sins , & so to make good what thou sayest thou hast added to Iohns words , his seed remains in him ( whereby he shall repent him of his sin , this last thou hast deceitfully added , as also hast added after the similitude , manner , or measure , or nature , that the Devil and his reprobates sins , let all seareh the Scripture , and see if Iohn speak any such thing , and so gives thy sensual meaning of Iohns words , quite contrary to what he spoke : for further , he said he that sins is of the devil , and never knew God ; and thou affirms , he that is born of God , which know God may sin , and so divides the Scripture , and adds thy own imaginations unto it ; and so thou mayest read thy portion in it , God will add all his plagues unto thee , and truth needs no reconciling , for it is in verity , and cannot be understood by thee , who art unlearned , and therefore thou wrests it : and further , thou sayest a child of God being renewed through Gospel-repentance , sins not devil like unto death or damnation . Reply , O thou blind Pharisce , a child of God needs no repentance and all sin is of and like the Devil his image , the Scripture saith he that sins is of the Devil ; thou sayest contrary , and speaks of sin not to be like the Devil : and here again art speaking contrary to the Scripture . And further , thou sayest thou dost say that the child of God as he sins , is of the Devil , not that the Devil can claim him for his , or that he is in the possession of the Devil , for your gift is of Balaams nature , and not of the nature of Pauls , and so your reward will be as Balaams , and not as Pauls , who inherits the everlasting treasure for ever . And further , thou sayest , but as to the point of taking Tythes , which in respect of darkness and prejudice , some Saints are herein unsatisfied : and thou sayest we understand not our selves in judging from the Apostles example , except we could prove by Scripture , that the Apostles might have had Tythes , or those Ministers which were like Timothy and Titus , settled in a parochial way in their quarters , might have had Tythes given them , and yet refused them . Reply . They which are satisfied that they are Ministers of Christ which takes Tythes , are indeed in darkness as thou speaks , and unto all that fear God , taking of ●ythes whether in paying or receiving , will be prejudice : and be it known unto thee , and unto all such that we do understand our selves in judging thee and all such ; to be Antichrists , and deceivers and false Prophets , who acts and upholds those things which the deceivers and false Prophets acted in former generations ; and in seeking for your gain from your Quarter and in making merchandise of people through covetousness , you make it manifest that you are such , and so in the light which was in the Prophets , and in the Apostles , we see you , and by it we judge you , and by the example of the Apostles you may all be condemned ; who never took Tythes , nor sought for their gain from their Quarter , nor made merchandise of any through covetousness , as you do : and we tell thee plainly , it is as true as the Scripture , for by the same Spirit we speak , that none of the Ministers of Christ nor his Apostle , did take Tythes or wages of the world for preaching , and this we can prove by the Scripture , that the Apostles refused to take that which they might have had , which was offered unto them , and herein they shall judge you , who not onely takes what men give you willing , but compels some to pay against their will : and that Timothy or Titus , or any of the ministers of Iesus Christ , was never settled in a parochial way in Quarters , we do deny it , and doth charge it upon thee , to be a false accuser , and a slanderer , and a lyar , upon Timothy and Titus , and would make them as bad as thy self , and the rest of the false Prophets , and here let thy own conscience condemn thee , for believing the holy men of God , and speaking that of them which they were not to cloak and uphold thy own deceits & abominations : & further , thou sayest till then the light of the Apostles that took whatsoever was given them , satisfies thy conscience to praise God for the Magistrate that doth freely give it unto thee , and then brings the Apostles words , they that preach the Gospel , should live of the Gospel . Reply . The light in which the Apostles lived , by which they were acted , will for ever condemn thee except thou repent ; for by their example thou art judged already as it is manifested , thy conscience is blinded by the god of the world , and not satisfied by the light of Christ which was in the Apostles , for if the light of the Apostles acted thee , then would thou be found in their steps , but be witness against thy self , that thou art acted by that spirit which acted the false Prophets , and false Apostles , being thou art found in the same steps , making merchandise of people , and preaching for hire as they did ; which of the Apostles had any Law from any Magistrate , to compel men to pay Tythes to them , shew this by the Scripture if thou canst , or else be a witness against thy self , that thou lives not upon the Gospel ? For I know if you had not a Law to compel men to maintain you , the Gospel which you preach , and the people to whom you preach , would starve you for maintenance ; this Scripture we own , and do witness , they that preach the Gospel shall live of the Gospel , and doth , without running to Magistrates to receive order from them , to compel men to pay them . XVI . Query . Shew me by the Scripture where ever any of the Ministers of Christ did give Davids Psalms to be sung of the people in a rime ; and if not , thou acknowledgest that thou art in the inventions and traditions of men , raised out from them all . Answ. In thy answer unto this Query , thou brings many Scriptures to prove singing , some of which doth not at all prove any singing , and none of them will prove the singing which thou pleads for ; which is a great company of proud and covetous , and earthly minded persons , to sing Davids words which they cannot witness , but are enemies to the life of what he spoke ; for the world cannot sing praises unto God , but you by your traditions cause men to sing lies , that they are not puft in mind , and that the Law of God is dear unto them , and that every night water they their bed with tears , when as they never witnessed these things , though all this was true in David ; and as for that Scripture 2 Chron , 29. where it was commanded of the Priests to sing the words of David and Asaph ; this was under the Law , a figure , as the Priests was a figure : and from that Scripture you may as well prove the offering of sacrifice , as singing ; but thou makes manifest thy ignorance and blindness hereby unto all the simple , and many other Scriptures thou brings , and the example of Christ and his Disciples , and the example of the Churches , which will not at all prove the singing of your assemblies , which is onely by tradition and invention we do deny , and bear testimony against it , that it is not the singing to the praise of God , but God is dishonoured by it , and it shall all be turned into howling and bitterness , and the time is at hand wherein the Iudgements of God shall be revealed against it , for in the eternal light it is discovered to be abomination unto God , and instead of singing you shall howle and lament , the Lord hath said it ; and a great deal more rabble of stuff thou hast written to prove thy deceitful practice , which I forbear to answer , as not worth naming . XVII . Query . Whether that wo which Christ pronounced against the Pharisees , who were called of men Masters , had the ceief place in the Assemblies , and stood praying in the Synagogues , do not abide upon thee , who art called of men Masters , hast the chief seat in the Assemblies , stands praying in the Synagogue ? or how wilt thou justifie thy self in these practices , seeing Christ is the same yesterday , to day , and for ever , who cryed woe against them that lived in them ? Answ. Thou sayest thou doth not feare the woes pronounced against the Pharilees . Reply . It is because thy heart is hardened , and thy mind is stiffnecked and rebellious , for as sure as Christ is the same for ever , the same woe will be thy portion as was theirs , which acts those things which they acted , contrary to the command of Christ : and further , thou sayest Christ , his Prophets and Apostles and as well as thy self , were called Masters , and Sirs . Reply . Christ was called Master , and here he approved it , and so he was , and is , even the one Master of all the Saints ; and their being called Master will not justifie thee in thy Pharisees steps : for he saith , Mat. 23. Be not ye called Master , and thou mani●ests thy self to be an enemy to Christ , who brings Scripture against his commands , and this I ask thee , or any , whether you dare justifie that to be of God , which Christ expresly commands contrary either in your selves or others ? and though some have erred herein , yet this will not justifie thee in thy Pharisee steps ; for Christ did plainly describe the Pharisees to the Desciples , by their walking , and we find thee , and the rest of thy Brethren , compleat in their steps , by the same spirit as Christ did we cry woe against you ; and as sure as Christ is the same for ever , it will come upon you : and further thou answers , as concerning thy preaching and praying in a pulpit of wood in the Synagogue , thou art no more then Christ , his Prophets and Apostles ; who did preach in the Synagogues to be condemned : Reply . Yea , thou art in the Pharisees steps , having the chief seat in the Assembly , and art to be condemned by the same which condemned the Pharisees . And whereas thou hast brought many Scriptures to vindicate thy Pharisee like action , none or them will justifie thee nor thy action ; and thou hast belyed the Prophets , and Christ and his Apostles , for they had not the chief place in the Assemblies , which thou would go about to make appear they had , and so would make them as bad as thy self , and the Phasees , but let all search the Scriptures which thou hast named ; and as for that where Ezra the Scribe read the Law in a Pulpit of wood in the street , will not justifie thee except thou will own thy self to be a Scribe and Priest of the Law as he was , and so deny thy self to be a Minister of the Gospel : this was not in a formal customary way , but at a particular time , and to a particular people , and he is not an example to the Ministers of the Gospel , for they went up and down in Towns , and Markets , and Vilages , preaching to every creature , which is our example , and not Ezra : and as for the other Scriptures , they will bear witness against thy action , for not one of them doth prove that either-Christ or his Apostles had the chief seat in the Synagogues , but sometimes they went and declared against them , and sometime they were hailed out and persecuted in them , as we are : and thy manner or action in the Assemblies , is according to the Pharisees , and not according to the Apostles , thou makes a trade to get money by thy action , and they did not so , but freely what they had received from God they declared , but thou sels thine for money , and upholds an Idols Temple which they bore witness against , as the Scripture bears witness , and here thou hast wrested the Scripture being unlearned , to thy own destruction , and where is thou speaks of feeding the flock of Christ , I answer , they who are the sheep of Christ knows thy voice to be the stranger , and will deny thee and thy food which feeds dead minds with the dead letter , and then make a prey upon the people , as the false Prophets did , and thou art raised out from all the holy Prophets and Apostles , art in the steps of the false Prophets , and Scribes and Pharisees , and false Brethren , thou speaks of our profaning the Temples , and basely contemning it : to which I answer , we bear witness against the Idols Temples of the world , which God is dishonoured in , and Baal worshiped , and do say God dwels not in Temples made with hands , & no other ways we profane it nor contemn it , but as the Apostles did , in witnessing forth the Substance , and denying the figure : and further , thou sayest that as Christ did , so thou doest acknowledge to be called Master , Minister , or Pastor , and do likewise Christ like , own in sincerity and humility , to stand praying in the Synagouge . Reply . Here thou art impudent and shameless , who acknowledges thy self to be called Masters , absolute contrary to the command of Christ , and so art to be condemned with the Pharisees , and as for Ministers of the Gospel , and Pastor of the flock of Christ , thou art none : for thy fruits doth make thee manifest , and being found out of the doctrine of Christ , and of his Apostles , art to be Iudged by their life and Spirit ; and that Christ stood praying in the Synagogue , which thou sayest , I declare against thee here to be a lyar , for in the Scripture thou canst not prove that Christ stood praying in the Synagogue , and so hast belyed him ; and hast added in this answer to the Scripture , as thou hast done in the twelfth Query ; and so thou mayest read thy portion , plagues will God adde unto thee , and as for sincerity and humility , thou who pleads for that which the holy men of God witnessed against , mayest be ashamed to profess sincerity and humility , and thus thy answers are replied unto , and thy shame laid open , and thy portion read , even the breath of the Lord will kindle thy torment , who hath slandered Christ and his Apostle , and would make them as bad as thy self , and the lyars portion must thou have , the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it . XVIII . Query . Whether they be not Ministers of Antichrist that do practice those things that Christ cryed woe against ? and whether they be Ministers of Christ , that though their subtilty go about to justifie those practices that Christ forbad and cryed woe against , yea or no ? Answ. Thou sayest if thou know any goes about subtilly to justifie these practices , it were well it were put out of a query . Reply . For the Information of the simple it was put forth , and that thou might be made manifest , and I put it out of all question , and say that they are the Ministers of Antichrist that practise those things that Christ cryed woe against ; and thou art seen to be one of them , that hath declared thy self openly to all that shall read thy answers , that all thou hath written was in subtilty , and thou goes about to justifie that which Christ cryed woe against , as is manifest pleading for Tythes , and denying Christ come in the flesh , and pleads against the words and commands of Christ , and to be called of men Master , and for standing praying in the Synagogue , and calls it Christ like , let shame strike thee in thee face , and I chalenge thee to prove where Christ stood praying in the Synagogue ; did he act those things that he cryed woe against , and so thou would make him like thy self a dissembler and an hypocrite ; but thou judges out of thy corrupt imaginations , and he will judge thee for it : and thou saith thou in charity ought to judge me to contend for the faith ; and in thy answer to Iohn Whites conclusion , thou says he Pope like commands thee to answer ; and further , thou saith he required thee in his one name , what confusion thou lies in , and forgets what thou speaks thy heart is so full of deceit : and thou further saith , he ought to abound in charity , to think no evil , and to die to all causless jealousies and contempt against professors , thou would not have deceit judged nei●her in thy self nor others , but would build up , and be daubed with untempered morter , and it is beyond jealousies that we have of thee , and all profession that stands in that nature , when your profession is contrary to the doctrine of Christ , and now possess not what you speak , and therefore makes hypocrites by your preaching , and to profess that which they possess not . And in thy conclusion , thou saith Iohn Whitehead , let me tell thee plainly , that thy words being far from the meek spirit of the Apostles , I beseech you brethren . Reply . The Apostle never said I beseech you brethren to such as thou art , who acts those things that he declared against , and suffered by thy generation , as we do now , hailing , mocking , buffeting : and thou that art joyned to a harlot , would thou be called a Brother , and thou saith thou should not have answered these Queris , if it had not been to answer the command of God , and the teaching of the Spirit ; the command of God thou never knew , who art pleading against Christs commands and the Spirit thou knows nothing of , who confessed in the fourth page of thy book , who confessed thou knew nothing but by the Scripture , and the Scripture is not the Spirit ; and here let all judge of thy blindness , and thou saith thou hast answered without adding or diminishing the Scripture , let all thy writing be a witness against thee , in thy answer to the twelfth Query , and in thy conclusion thou sayes thou would not draw arguments from , and fetch guns out of a castle , to turn them against the same place ; this shall stand for thy self , and let all judge whether thou have not fetched arguments and Scriptures to uphold thy trade of divination , and hath pleaded against Christs own commands , and sets one Scripture against another ; and thou would have distinctions to stand , because the holy Ghost saith , this he spoke concerning the Temple of his body ; but where is that Scripture that saith this was said not of the material Temple ? that is thy own word , and so thou cannot but twine , and wrest , and pervert , for if thou did not , the whole Scripture would bear witness against thee ; and thou art accusing that thou heard him press , casting off ordinances , we know what thou calls ordinances , even beggerly rudiments , sprinkling Infants , singing others condition , and when you read puts them on , and when you sing puts them off , and standing praying in the Synagogue , and would accuse Christ as thou hast done , in thy answer to the seventeenth Query , and coming to an Idols Temple ; and hear thee speak an hour or two , what thou hast raised up by thy imagination from the Scripture all the week , and then cry hear the Word of the Lord , and these and such like are your ordinances , but God will plead with thee , and all that offer strange fire , and all your sacrifice God is weary of , and therefore cease to pervert the way of the Lord , lest thou be cut off within thy gainsaying , and perish with the uncircumcised . FINIS .