The popish informer reprehended for his false information against the Quakers meeting in reply to ... An answer to a seditious libel, as he most falsly terms the late innocent declaration from the people of God, called, Quakers, against all seditious conventicles, &c. (wherein their innocency is cleared, and herein vindicated) : unto which is annexed, a brief recital of some accusations cast upon the said people, by one H. Thorndike, one of the prebends of Westminster, in his book entituled, A discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1670 Approx. 47 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65878 Wing W1946 ESTC R20124 12291496 ocm 12291496 58904 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65878) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58904) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:19) The popish informer reprehended for his false information against the Quakers meeting in reply to ... An answer to a seditious libel, as he most falsly terms the late innocent declaration from the people of God, called, Quakers, against all seditious conventicles, &c. (wherein their innocency is cleared, and herein vindicated) : unto which is annexed, a brief recital of some accusations cast upon the said people, by one H. Thorndike, one of the prebends of Westminster, in his book entituled, A discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 23 p. s.n.], [London? : 1670. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Signed: G.W., W.S. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Thorndike, Herbert, 1598-1672. -- Discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Popish Informer REPREHENDED For his False Information against THE Quakers Meetings : IN REPLY To a most Envious , Abusive , Seditious , and Irrational Pamphlet , stiled , An Answer to a Sedit●●●● Libel , as he most falsly terms the late Innocent Declaration from the People of God , called , Quakers , against all Seditious Conventicles , &c. [ Wherein their Innocency is cleared , and herein vindicated . ] Unto which is annexed , A brief Recital of some Accusations cast upon the said People , by one H. Thorndike , one of the Prebends of Westminster , in his Book , entituled , A Discourse of the Forbearance , or the Penalties which a due Reformation requires . And thou , O God , shalt bring them down into the Pit of Corruption ; the Bloody and deceitfull men shall not live half their dayes , Psal. 55. 23. Printed in the Year , 1670. WHereas there is extant a certain Scandalous malicious Pamphlet , tending to encrease Persecution against-the Innocent People of God called , Quakers , ( without any name or Author subscribed ) wherein our late innocent Declaration is stiled , A Seditious Libel ; and our Meetings termed Seditious Conventicles ; and we accused of Dangerous Practises , &c. To Which we Answer , That we shall not need much to vindicate , our selves herein : First , because our innocency and clearness from these unjust charges is so manifest to our Nation and Neighbourhood . Secondly , because this false Informer and Accusar hath not brought forth any matter of either proof or validity against us ; and because he hath scandalized our Declaration , as being as Seditious Libel , and so slandered us therein , we may again give a hint of the nature and tendancy of our Declaration so accused , that it is a Declaration against all seditious Conventicles and dangerous practises of any who under colour or pretence of tender Conscience have , or may contrive Insurrections , this is the Title ; as also in our Declaration , the Worship of God in his Spirit and Power , the peaceable Truth , and seeking peace with all men , and meeting together to worship God therein , according to Christ and his Apostles , is vindicated , and a Testimony given against all Sedition , Conspiracy , contriving Insurrections ; as also it is judged gross Hypocrisie and Dissimulation for any to pretend tenderness of Conscience , and a Religious exercise , and under that colour intend a quite contrary thing , as to contrive Insurrections , &c. Concerning which we , who are called Quakers , can say , in the presence of God , we are free and clear from all such things in the sight of God , Angels and Men : Thus far is signified in our Declaration . Now let the moderate Reader judge , whether this Testimony of ours be seditious yea or nay , as this false Informer hath accused it ? or whether his Pamphlet and Information herein be not absolutely seditious against the Government , and common good of the Nation ; for herein he hath accused us of Sedition , for our declaring against Sedition , dangerous practices , and contriving Insurrections : And whether herein he hath not appeared more like a Popish Emissary , then a good Subject ? Whereas this Informer accuseth us , as followeth , viz Inform. The Quakers do not exercise any part of Divine Worship , according to the Liturgy , &c. Answ. The Divine Worship is in the Spirit and in the Truth , and therein we meet , we wait , we call upon God , as his People of old did , who knew not how to pray , but as the Spirit helped their infirmities , and this is according to the Spirit of Truth , which the Liturgy refers and directs men to , and the Scriptures direct us to this Spirit of Truth , to follow its guidance and teaching ; and dare this Accusar plainly affirm , that the Liturgy , and Practice of the Church of England do not allow of this ? has not he herein accused the Church of England ? then what Church doth he belong to ? and doth not the word Liturgy of the Church , signifie , The publick Work , Action , or Service of the Church ? and can any reasonably confine it only to Reading Confessions of sins , and Prayers ? for is there not both a Prayer before Sermon , and Preaching also used in the Church , which are not particularly recorded in the Common-Prayer-Book ? Besides , this our Accusar , though he would shew himself both a Divine and a Lawyer , yet he is good at neither Law nor Gospel ; for the words of the Act , viz. Any Assembly , Meeting , or Conventicle under colour or pretence of any Exercise of Religion , in other manner then according to the Liturgy of the Church of England , &c. the sence hereof he tyes up to this , ( saith he ) It must be according to the form and method there prescribed , that is publick Prayer , in places set apart ; there being in the Liturgy prescribed Forms as well for private as publick Worships , &c. as if he would tell us , that the religious exercise that is according to the Common-Prayer , is the Common Prayer it self ; and so unless we have it read , we are hereby deemed to be under a colour of religious exercise not according to it , which is gross non-sence and ignorance ; for that which is according to ●he Liturgy is not the Liturgy it self ; besides the words colour or pretence of any exercise of Religion , relate to the Title and Preamble of the Act , as not being the real manifestation of Worship , but a Cover to carry on some contrary , design or intention of Sedition or Insurrection ; for the Title of the Act , is , An Act to prevent and suppress seditious Conventicles ; therefore , not to prevent and suppress peaceable harmless Meetings , which are really for the Worship and Service of God , in the Spirit and Truth . The Preamble which ought to be the Key and Reason of the Law , is against the growing and dangerous practises of Seditious . Sectaries , and other disloyal Persons , who under pretence of tender Conscences , have , or may at their Meetings contrive Insurrections ; hereby the words Colour and Pretence are sufficiently explained ; and that it ought not to be inflicted upon people who are really of tender Consciences towards God in their exercise of Religion and Worship , which we being concerned in , have not in the least , forfeited the liberty to tender Consciences so often promised by the King , both in his Letters from Breda , and divers Declarations since . Again , whereas this Informer accuseth us of a seditious and blasphemous Pamphlet , published in the year 1664. without repeating either any Sedition or Blasphemy in it , or shewing by what Author , &c. Let the indifferent Reader note his envy and malice herein , and how disingeniously he hath dealt by us . And now to prove our Practises dangerous he proceeds thus . Inform. That they have been dangerous Germany hath well experienced , by the rebellion of David George , the first of your Sect. Such another was John of Leydon , and Cobbs faction in England . Answ. This Informer would make the Magistrates believe strange Stories against us , if they would be but so easily drawn to dance at his Pipe , and do the Devils drudgery of persecution for him , as his malicious spirit would have them ; and if they were so credulous as to believe his notorious Lyes and forgeries against the Quakers ; where he tells them of the Rebellion in Germany , bringing it as an instance against us , though most unjustly and impertinently : As also his calling David George the first of our Sect , which is a most manifest and absurd Falshood and Abuse ; for as History mentions of him , he was about the year , 1544 , and held ( as recorded ) very blasphemous licencious doctrines ; as that he was Christ the Messiah ; and declared Polygamy ( or the having many Wive , ) to be free and lawful : And further ( it s said ) Embroyled the lower parts of Germany in Tumults , * which things both our righteous Principles and innocent Lives do utterly testifie against . And as for John of Leyden , who lived also about the same time , who is said to have had his Meetings all in the night time ) he is represented as one of the same Principle , to allow of the same gross evil of Polygamy . whose extravigancies , pride , and presumption , in his causing Wars , and Disturbances , and assuming Kings-ship ( as recorded of him ) our Religion and Example do also condemn as repugnant to the very Nature and Life of Christianity . And besides , where doth History or intilligent Persons relate that either David George , John of Leiden , or Cobs Faction , were accounted Quakers in their time ? Do but see the malice and falshood of this Accuser and Informer , thus to render such our Presidents , whose Example we never followed ; and if he could nominate thousands of rebellious Persons , doth it appear just in him to endeavour the prejudicing , and instigation of the Rulers against such as are Innocent and Peaceable , both in their Principles and Deportments : Surely such cruel and partial Informers as this , who hath no more sence either of the common good of the Nation , nor what 's consistant with human Society , nor yet of their Innocency whom he accuseth ; but would have People disturbed and persecuted for their Consciences , upon his meer false suggestions , and evil surmises , would bring the Nation to a sad pass , if they had their wicked wills , who have neither Truth , Reason , nor hnman Pollicy , in their seeking to blow up the Coals of Sedition , Strife , and Persecution amongst their Neighbours , which is never like to compose differences in matters of Religion and Conscience , but to make them wider and more incomposible . Inform. There is Sedition and Rebellion implyed in the Doctrine you teach at your Conventicles : You preach against Dignities , and Titles of Honour ; calling them Antichristian contrary to the Scripture , &c. Answ. Here is an Accusation of an implicit Sedition and Rebellion in our Doctrine ; but no proof , only a false Accusation added , That we preach against Dignities , which is a gross Slander ; for both Dignities and Dominion we own , knowing that its Truth and Righteousness which only doth Dignifie and make Worthy and honourable ; it is Vertue and Wisdom makes honorable & worthy ; and all Titles that are proper thereunto , which truly express either the Virtue , Dignity , or Worth of Rulers , and their Dominion , we never opposed ; but flattering , complemental deceitful Titles , which tend but to please men , and gratifie proud spirits , we utterly deny , as that which our Maker would condemn us for , should we use them : This Informer had dealt more ingeniously , had he told us what those ( he calls ) Titles of Honour are , which the Scripture commands , and which he saith , we call Antichristian . Inform. To the King belongs Obedience ; you must obey his Laws , and those either actively or passively ; but you are content with neither . Whatsoever is commanded by Authority , if it be not contrary to the Word of God , must be obeyed actively , and not passively . Passive Obedience is only required when things contrary to the Word of God are commanded . Answ. It is a false Accusation , That we are content with neither ; for we obey both actively and passively ; Actively so far as stands with our Peace of Conscience , in the Sight of God , and otherwise we are passive , as our patient suffering so deeply , hath amply shewed : Howbeit , this Accusar hath implied , That there may be Laws or Commands contrary to the Word of God ; it is well he will allow the Word of God any room , in saying , Whatsoever is commanded , if it be not contrary to the Word of God , it must be obeyed actively : So then it follows , that whatsoever is contrary must not ; for indeed , the Word and Law of God are indispensable ; and God hath placed an equal and just Law of Reason in mans heart , * which neither Statute , Presciption , nor Custom ought to prevail against ; but if any be brought in against it , they are to be holden for void , and against justice , and so no Laws according to Doct. & Stud. Cap. 2. And no man of what estate or degree soever , hath Power to dispence with God's Law , 28 H. 8. And now , what is according to the Law of God , or not ac-according to it , the prejudiced persecuting spirit is no meet nor competent Judge to be sure : but the patient suffering Spirit and Mind , that dwells in the true Light , being qualified with Graces and Ornaments of the Spirit of God , which are , Love , Joy , Peace , Long-suffering , Gentleness , Goodness , Faith , Meekness , Temperance , against which there is no Law , Gal. 5. Whereas the fruits of the flesh are contrary , as , Hatred , Variance , Emulation , Stife , Sedition , Heresies , &c. above all which the Spirit of Truth , and its Fruits are exalted , and followed by the Children of Light , who are born after the Spirit , who are persecuted and oppressed only by such as are born after the flesh ; and herein are you , malicious Persecutors , manifest of what seed and birth you are , see , Gal. 4. 29. Inform. It is not necessary that all things commanded by Authority must have a command , or president in Scripture ; for many things are left indifferent to the discretion of God's Vicegerents , as Kings , &c. A Power is likewise in the Governours of the Church , to impose such things as they shall find necessary to be observed in the publick Worship of God ; and this we may infer from those words of the Apostle , The rest will I set in order when I come . Answ. To the first part , Nothing essential to the Worship of God can truly be deemed indifferent , nor differently left to mens discretion , for the Law of the Spirit of Life is the true and infallible Rule to Believers in the true Worship , and mens judgements ought to be subject thereunto ; but as for this notion , of things indifferent in the Worship of God ; it has been an inlet to much Idolatry and Superstition amongst Apostates and pretended Christians : However , it is a gross impiety , as also an interfering with their own Principle , for any to persecute others meerly for things which themselves deem indifferent , which in moderation might better be dispenced with , then rigorously to inforce them . To the second part , This Informer seems to set up a second sort of Governours in the Church , besides ( or above ) Kings , as having power to impose things in worship , without either Scripture or President thereof , which is rank Popery , tending to encourage Popery , and to bege● People into an implicit faith , and acceptance of unwritten Traditions , from those he counts Governours of the Church ; but herein he hath plainly opposed the Protestants high esteem and preferment of the holy-Scriptures . And his instance of the Apostle , The rest will I set in order when I come , will make nothing for his purpose , to bring dissenters under all the unscriptural Impositions and Ceremonies of these he calls Governours of the Church : whether he means the Pope , his Cardinals , Bishops , and Clergy , he hath not told us ; or whether he means some oth●● 〈◊〉 kin to them in their Traditions : But herein he has but 〈◊〉 begged the Question , as if he took it for granted , that conscientious Dissenters must presently , upon his bare word , believe that these Imposers he now pleads for , are in the same Power and Authority and Example with the Apostles and Ministers of Christ in former dayes ; but Dissenters must have a better demonstration then this mans bare word for it , or the Persecution and Cruelty he would instigate to , but he has greatly erred in these matters ; for the true Church had one Head and Law-giver even Christ , and wherein the true Ministers and Elders thereof did give directions , either for ordering affairs or to follow them ; It was not from a meer imposition nor outward force , nor yet as Lords over Gods Heritage , neither to have dominion over their Faith , but in the unity of the Spirit of Life , as Fellow-Helpers in Christ , and as being manifest by the powerful evidence of his Spirit even in their Consciences ; so said the Apostle , Be ye Followers of me as dear Children , even as I am of Christ : Now such Children as he begot into the Faith knew it their duty to follow him , as they knew him a Follower of Christ ; but this is no ground for either the Pope , or his Clergy , or any that are popish in their unwritten Traditions , to impose them , or force them upon such as are none of their Children , for that is but a meer usurpation at most , and but Antichristian . Inform. Honour the King , but this you preach against . Answ. This is an absolute Slander , for the Fear of God , to which the true Honour of Kings is joyned , we have alwayes owned ▪ and preacht up , desiring that the Fear of God might not be slighted , nor such wicked actions , pollutions , and corruptions committed in the Nations as do both greatly provoke God , and dishonour the King and Government . True Honour is a substantial thing , not consisting in feigned complements , nor deform'd cringes . Inform. The best Language he ( to wit the King ) can get from you is Thou and Thee , as if he were your Fellow ; this error of yours , &c. Answ. Is Thou and Thee such bad dishonourable Language ? Why dost thou then use thee and thou to God in thy Prayers ( if thou hast so much Religion to pray at all ? ) But hast thou not herein accused the Prophets and Apostles with ill Language and with dishonouring Kings and Rulers , by using Thou and Thee when they spoke particularly ; for was it not the Language of Moses to Pharoah , who was a King , The Lord God hath sent Me unto Thee , saying ▪ Let my People go that they may serve me , but hitherto Thou wouldst not hear . And Exod. 7. 16. And how long wilt Thou refuse to humble thy self before me ? let my People go that they may serve me , Chap. 10. 3. And did not the Prophet Nathan say to King David , Thou art the man ? 2. Sam. 12. 7. And did not the three Children answer Nebucadnezar the King , Be it known unto Thee , O King , that we will not serve Thy gods , nor worship the golden image which Thou hast set up ? Dan. 3. 16 , 17 , 18. And did not Paul use the word Thee to King Agrippa ? Act. 26. 2 , 3. But if this Informer had but remembred his Accidence , and the difference between Singular and Plural he need not have counted Thee and Thou to one such ill Language . Inform. Serve none else but him who hath called you from a Worldly to a Spiritual Imployment ( This is the meaning he gives to the words , Call no man Master , &c. Answ. If true Ministers must only serve Christ who hath called them , then Christs Followers are not to be imposed upon , at mens wills or discretions , ( so called ) but to obey and follow Christ , who is their Leader , Master , and Governour ; and this breaks the neck of this Accusers stuff against Quakers . Inform. The next thing that belongs to Caesar is Tribute ▪ we shall not deny but that you pay Taxes ▪ because you are compelled ▪ &c. Answ. Our paying Taxes is not from compulsion , or wrath , but for Conscience sake , our end and intent therein being honest and reasonable as in the sight of God ; for the upholding of Government , for the execution of Justice and Righteousness ; our desires being that Rulers might be a terror to Evildoers , and a praise to them that do well ; for the preservation of men in their respective Proprieties , Rights , and Liberties ; so that in our paying our Dues we have a Testimony for God , and may with a good Conscience clame our Rights and Liberties as men , and ought also to have our Freedom as Christians , whilst we give to God his Due , and to Caesar his Due , which neither this Accuser nor all the Devils Agents besides can justly detect us in , though to prove that we do not give to God those things due to him , he goes on thus . Inform. Here you fail ; what hath been once dedicated to God , and set apart for the Maintenance of his Service and Worship , doth belong to God. Answ. This [ doth belong ] is a false Assertion , for those many ordinances of Divine Service under the Law , with the Sacrifices , Offerings , divers Washings , and many Shaddows , which belonged to the outward Tabernacle and Temple , have been dedicated for the Service of God in their time , which now are ended in Christ ; as the Tythes are , which were given to the Priests , for their service at the Tabernacle , Numbers ▪ 18 ▪ which had an end , the substance of all being Manifest in Christ. Inform. God hath assigned this payment to his Ministers , They that wait at the Alter should live of the Alter , and they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel ▪ so that whosoever refuseth to pay Tythes to the Ministers doth not give to God the things that belong to God. Answ. Here he grosly perverts that Scripture , 1 Cor. 9. 13. 14. rendering it as if living of the Gospel were in the same manner of the Priests living of the Alter under the Law ; whereas at the Altar they pertook of both Tythes and Offerings , must they therfore live upon Tythes and Offerings under the Gospel ? where is then the difference between Law and Gospel ? and how are Offerings ended under the Gospel ? and a tenth part of the Tythes of the Children of Israel was to be offered up a heave-Offering unto the Lord , Num. 18. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. But as for the words [ even so ] they relate not to the manner of living of the Alter : but to the Lord 's Ordaining , as even so hath the Lord ordained , that they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel , 1. or . 9. 14. so the Gospel makes way for the true Minsters Maintenance , which is not a forced Maintenance , neither is it Tythes or Offerings ; for as is fully testified in Heb. 7. the Priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the Law ; the Sons of Levy who received the Office of the Priesthood had a Command to take Tythes of their Bretheren , but this is ended as it is said ; there is a disanulling of the Commandment going before ; so this man might as well have accused the Apostle with failing to pay to God his Due , as have accused us in the matter of Tythes , seeing our Testimony is one and the same : But this Informer shews himself to have little regard to Scripture , whilst he can plead the discretion of Magistrates and imposition of Governours , for things in matter of Worship , which he hath neither Scripture Command or president for , especially among the primitive Christians and Apostles . Inform. His Worship in Spirit and Truth is but the lesser part of his due . It is obedience God desires rather then Sacrifice or Worship ; God commands you to be obedient to Authority . Answ. Let the Reader mark here how absurdly he reasons ; First , implying a Worship of God in Spirit and Truth , without obedience which cannot be ; for that Worship which stands in Spirit and Truth is Obedience , for Truth admits of no disobedience . Secondly , his deeming the true Worship of God to be but the lesser part of his due ; and Obedience to Authority to be the greater ▪ herein he hath blasphemously set up an Authority above God , and so man above his Maker ; for it is outward Authority his words intend ; but he is greatly mistaken , for we in worshipping and obeying God in Spirit and Truth , which is our principal Duty , do not oppose nor resist any Authority , or wholsom Laws , which have a dependance upon the Authority and Law of God. Where we said , We do not meet to plot or contrive Insurrections . Inform. We have but your bare word for it . Answ. This is false , you have more then our bare word ( viz. ) our innocent behaviour , and harmless deportment , evidently mani●ested through the many Afflictions , Persecutions , and Cruelties that we have patiently undergone since we were a People , and all for the Testimony of our tender Consciences towards God ; therefore it is evident that we have but this mans bare word for proof , that our Meetings are either seditious Conventicles , or tending to Insurrection , and if he were not wilfully blind he might see the contrary openly evinced by our Christian Conversation , in the peaceable exercise of our Religion and Conscience . Inform. It is true , there is danger enough in your small meetings , but much more in your greater meetings of hundreds ; for by lessning your meetings , we may better secure both Church and State ; for ten or twelve can make no great disturbance in a place ; a Constable may suppress these ; but where five or six hundred more shall meet , and finding an opportunity , make an Insurrection may set a whole City on flames , &c. Answ. What danger hath this man seen in any of our Meetings , either small or great ? we challenge him , and all such malicious Informers in the World , to prove any danger or hurt by us in our Meetings ? Besides , has not he herein struck at the Parliaments allowing small meetings , of four Persons above the Families , besides all such as are under the age of sixteen years , as i● therein they allowed of dangerous and seditious Meetings , which we are confident they do not believe concerning us called Quakers . And as for this Accusers judging our greater Meetings , of hundreds , to be much more dangerous , and therefore would have them less●ed ; what ground or reason has he for his evil surmise in this , seeing when our Meetings are large , our doors being open , many mixt people may come and behold us and our order ? that if we were of that ill mind , as to contrive Evil or Sedition , we could not have opportunity ; we should be the maddest Plotters that ever were , if we should be so publick and obvious therein ; but the Lord has redeemed us out of all such occasions both publick and private ; we have given no occasion of either fear , suspition , or jealousy to our Persecutors in those matters , it is their own guilt , and envious persecuting spirits that attract fears and troubles , the Witness of God persuing them for their injuries , and injustice , who afflict the Innocent , and oppress the Poor and Needy , for whose sake God will arise , and plead their Cause . Inform. Your antick tricks in your silent Meetings , &c. Answ. What antick tricks thou Slanderer and Scoffer ? though we have often waited in silence together upon God , and received comfort and benefit therein , from him by his Spirit wherein we wait and worship him : And what hast thou against this , thou bloody-minded Informer ? And what colour or pretence of Religious Exercise hast thou , to inform against these harmless silent Meetings ? Where is the colour or pretence ? and what exercise provest thou therein , that the Act takes hold of ? And what plotting or contriving hast thou ever heard or seen in any such Meetings , or in any of our Meetings , tending to set the City on flames ? And as for antick tricks , if the Devil had not blinded thee , and such as thou art ; thou mightest have made those ungodly Meetings at Play-Houses the subject of thy Information , and not the innocent pious Meetings of the People called Quakers . For is it not obvious , what impudency , antick whorish tricks and postures appear upon Stages , at Play-Houses , in and about the Cities of London and Westminster , to draw out the mindes of People into vanity , and a whorish spirit , as Women without the appearance of Modesty or Sobriety in their behaviour , and men dect in womens Apparel , to be examples of whorish postures ? besides the many vain shews and sights to affect and gratifie the vain wonton eyes , minds , and spirits of Youth , to draw them into impudency and debauchery , such abominations as is a Reproach to the Profession of Christianity , and a shame to the Nation . And to that of Mal. 1. 11. In every place Incense ( or Offerings ) shall be offered unto my Name ; This Informer gives this meaning , That this hath relation to the calling in of the Gentiles . The Coming of Christ and Convertion of the Gentiles by his Gospel ( i. e. ) in every Country or Nation ( To which we say , Why should we be deprived of this priviledge in our Country and Nation , where so much of Christ and Gospel is profest ? ) But then he adds , In places dedicated to my Name , the publique Places of God's Worship , his Houses , dedicated set apart for his peculiar Service , &c. Reply , But what Houses doth he intend ? are they Steeple-houses , which were dedicated for the Mass ? were these the Houses which he saith God put into their heart to build him ? it appears they are ; and to them he would have all compelled : but herein his Popish Spirit and Principle doth appear ; for did not the Papists build those Houses he pleads for , ( for their Worship ) as he thinks God put it into their hearts to do ? but , can he think that in every Country where the Gentiles are called in , there must of necessity be such places or Mass-houses ? or must the poor Ministers of Christ forbear to go into those Nations , to preach where there are no such consecrated by Pope or Bishop ? And then must the Gentiles in those Countries be unpreached to , uncalled and unconverted till such Houses are built and dedicated ? I hope the Reader will easily see the obsurdity and ignorance of this malicious Informer herein , who also adds , that is , Every place cannot be taken in the general sence ; for then it will take in Hell , where Sacrifices shall never be , &c. Wherein he most absurdly reasons ; for the subjects of this Prophesie were neither in Hell , nor to come there , being the converted Gentiles , as he confesseth . And who is so ignorant of Scripture , as to think that Christ and his Apostles were confined alwayes to meet in the Jews Temple and Synagogues ; for did they not meet on Mountains , by the Sea-side , and in Houses . And did not many hundreds of the primitive Christians meet together , and that at such places as were not dedicated or consecrated , as the Mass-houses are ? And did not Christ set up the true Worship in Spirit and Truth above the worship at the Temple of Jerusalem , where the Jews thought m●n ought to worship ? and was not that Temple a Figure ? and where i● there any Precept or Command in Scripture for the building such another , and compelling people thereto to Worship : answer by plain Scripture , or else stop your Mouthes [ you Persecutors about Religion ] the true Christians , who are Jews inward , worship God in the newness of the Spirit , and not in the oldness of the Letter ; they waited in the Spirit , they prayed in the Spirit , they sung in the Spirit , they had the Spirit of Grace and Supplication powered upon them , according to promise : And this Worship was divine , and not invented nor divised , nor framed up , nor yet performed in the will of man , What , and whence then was their Liturgie ? Let the holy Scriptures answer . And doth not the Lyturgy of the Church of England allow of the Holy Scriptures of Truth , and the Example of the primitive Christians therein recorded ? Let Truth and Reason answer . And whereas this Accuser saith , touching our Diffinitions in our Postscript ( viz ) upon the words Seditious , Disloyal , &c. That they agree very well with our Practises , and that we are guilty of all either in Posse or Esse , and therefore ought to be prevented . Reply , As this most partial and prejudiced Informer hath all along set himself in his Pamphlet , as both our false Accuser and unjust Judge ; so herein from his own groundless and evil surmise hath insinuated a most unjust Conclusion of guilt upon us as being Seditious and Disloyal ( that is loving Discord and Treachery ) wherein God and our Country knows he wrongs us ; but his proof of all against the Quakers amounts to nothing farther then an envious application of an old story of David George , and John of Leyden , &c. and to an envious conclusion , of being guilty either in Posse or Esse ; but whether this be any sufficient evidence either to convict or prevent us ; we leave to the just Witness of God in all Consciences , and to the consideration of all unprejudiced impartial-minded men , both Rulers and others . London , the 3d day of the 4th Moneth cal●●● June , 1670. From some of the People of God , called , Quakers . Here follows a Recital of some envious Information and Accusations against the Quakers ( by H. Thornedike , Prebend of Westminster-Church , so called ) in his Book , called , A Discourse of the forbearance or the Penalties , which a due Reformation requires . WHEREIN His unchristian and inhumane Spirit and Principle is discovered ; and hereby he hath shewed himself no better then the Jewish Priests , Popish Prelates , and other Merchants of Babylon . PAge 177. Saith this Prebend , But now , as for the Quakers , we are no more to reckon them among Christians , then the Gnonosticks and Manichees of old , then the Mahumetans at present . Reply , Here is no proof of any evil against the Quakers , but ●eer railing & misrepresenting them ; for they were never of the Principle of the Gnonosticks , Manichees , nor Mahumetans ; See what they held ; first , concerning Gnonostici or Gnosticks , they are recorded for Hereticks which swell●d in p●ide ( by some called Barbarites , by reason of their beastly life ) Epiphanius saith , the Valentines called themselves Gnostici , and that all women among them were common , &c. Now how most unjustly this Prebend hath compared us , ( called Quakers ) to such , let all that know us and our Principle judge ▪ for all such Debauchery , and ungodly Practises , and Ran●isme we utterly deny and abhor , they more suit the Spirit of many of his own Fraternity , who are owned as Sons of the Church , and more justly might be compared and applied unto them who are possest with the Spirit of Whoredom , among whom Whoredom and Drunkenness encrease , who for all that ( being capable to put into Priests mouthes ) remain unexcommunicated . And as for the Manichees it s recorded , they had their appellation from one M●●●s , a Heretick , who called himself Christ , and who said that Christ was not truly born , but fantastically ; and that he taught , that there were many Gods ; and that the Sun was to be worshipped ; and that the Souls of men went from one Body to another , &c. But these things were never believed , nor taught , nor owned by the Quakers : and therefore this prejudiced Prebend's instance and comparison herein , together with that of the M●h●metans against us , is most false , and malicious , and unjust ; and hereby he can never unchristian the Quakers ; for their Christianity both in Life and Principle stands over him ▪ and all such false Accusers . Preb. For they do openly own the dictates of their own Spirit to be as much the Word of God as the Scriptures ; acknowledging the Scriptures so far as they please . Reply , This is also a false Accusation , for it is not their own spirits , but the Spirit of God which they follow the dictates of , which agree with the holy Scriptures , by which Spirit of God the Revelations of the Mystery of Life and Salvation in Christ is given unto us , and we have received power , not only to profess , but to order our conversations according to the holy Scriptures . Preb. Introduce the pretences of their own Revelation where they think fit . Reply , This is also an evil suggestion ; for it is not such pretences , but the Revelation of Jesus Christ in reality , that by his Spirit is introduced amongst us . Preb. For when the private spirit is equalled with Gods Word , the last dictate , as in mens last Wills must of necessity take place . Reply , This is also false , as it is intended against us , called Quakers ; and no less then a Popish Accusation cast upon us , this being the very phrase of Papists against us , as calling the Spirit of Christ by which we are led a private spirit ; whereas indeed it is the universal Spirit which convinceth the World of sin , and leads the true Believers into all truth ; and in this universal Spirit we worship God , and have good will to all men . Preb. The Quakers follow everyone their own [ spirit ; ] therefore are the more contemptable . Reply , This also is a false and contemptable Accusation cast upon us , the same with the former ; for we prefer the Spirit of God , and its leadings , and not our own . Preb. Certainly , did they see that they cannot be reconciled , but as so many Runnagadoes , they would bethink themselves before they went on in their madness . Reply , Envious men are blind , and void of true Judgment , and are ready to stumble at Noon-day ; and though they have eyes , yet cannot see ; for we have received Grace , by which we are reconciled and redeemed from folly and madness ; by which Grace we are taught to deny ungodliness , and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present evil World. Preb. This their Position is not reconcileable to civil trust , alwayes oblieging them to the most desperate acts of Treason and violence to their Country , that they can imagine their own spirits to dictate . Rep. As this Position charged upon us ( of following our own private spirits ) is utterly false , so are also these Consequences , and they savour of a popish & blood thirsty spirit , that would bring Persecution and violence upon us ; therefore we challenge and charge this Prebend to prove ( if he can ) when , and where we were perfidious , either in matters of civil trust , or ever brought forth acts of Treason or Violence to our Country ; we charge it upon him , as a most malicious and envious instigation against us . Preb. It cannot be beyond the merit of their madness , that they are made Servi penae , by Law , as the Romans Law calls it ; That is , That they are transported to work in the Plantations — the Law is to provide for such People . Rep. Here is still more Railing and Instigation to Cruelty and Persecution : No doubt but this man , if he had Power , or Horns long enough he would be cruel enough ; we may expect the very mercies of such to be cruelty ; he would have us made Servi penae indeed , but we desire more competent Judges then such as he , who is not content with our ancient English Laws already made ; but would have crueller to bring us under servitude and vassalage in Forreign Plantations ; whereas many thousands of conscientious Dissenters , both Quakers and others , have estates already sufficient to live upon , which they have honestly laboured for ▪ But if this cruel Prebend's counsel might take effect against us , it appears we must have our Estates taken from us , and then be exiled as Slaves and Drudges : But doth he design , that he and his Companions shall have our Estates , or part of them , to spend upon their lust ? Surely , it is obvious what misery he , and such as are of his Gang would bring upon this Nation ; a considerable part whereof doth conscientiously dissent from this Prebend's Way and Religion , who hath thus shewn his inveterate , proud , imperious persecuting Spirit most repugnant to the equal Law of Christ , which enjoyns him to do to all men as he would they should do to him : Besides , what pride and presumption is it in him to take upon him to prescribe the Magistrates such a way and manner of proceeding against Dissenters , so contrary to the wholsom fundamental Laws ▪ Priviledges and Rights of English men . Preb. They must fail of civil trust of Subjects , that is , that their Testimonies be not taken in Law , That they be disabled to sue at Law ; That they be disabled to make Wills , or to get by Wills ; or anything else within the effect of civil trust ; And this must also be the penal●● of the Leviathan , and all that may follow him ▪ either into Apostacy or Atheism . Repl. This envious Informer would have us excluded out of all our rights at once , though without any just ground or reason : Let but all that are unbyassed in this Nation see what ranchor cruelty and injustice resides in this mans spirit , Leviathan ( crooked Serpent ) like , thus ●o seek to deprive free-born English men of their rights and privileges , and that without any proof or ground for his Accusations , accusing us of failing of the civil trust of Subjects , when as we have been found more trusty and faithful then many of his Coat , who have temporized , crept , and changed with every Form and change of Government , for Self-ends , Gain , and Preferment . Preb. For they who declare themselves as freedom to forswear the Christian Faith can never be held by any Bond of civil Trust : It must be also the Penalty of all Sects that may rel●ps . It may be a Q●estion , Why the Kingdom should be counted a Christian Kingdom , if the Laws of it set not some Mark of Infamy upon the Enemies of Christianity , which only the enforceing of Ex●ommunication by the La● can do . Repl. Who are to be marked as Enemies to Christianity ? This man is no competent Judge , for he hath already abused true Christians ( as such like ) seeking to instigate the Magistrates , to do his and his Brethrens Druggery of Persecution against them . And when and where did we ever declare our selves at freedom to forswear the Christian Faith ? Is not this an envious insinuation of thy own head and wicked heart , to make us odious ? We hope we shall have a better tryal ; end more impartial Judges , and more just Judgment than this mans , before he gets us transported to work in forreign Plantations ; but it appears , all this man aims at is the enforcing severity upon all that dissent from his Way ▪ And what doth he think will be the effect thereof ? And how will such cruel work compose the spirits of the People of this Nation ? doth he think to make up a good Church or a compleat Body , by driving men with force and cruelty into his way and worship ? Surely this is not the way to make sound Members , but to add to the number of Hypocrites ; nor is this the Way of Christianity : And where did Peter , Paul , Timothy or Titus go about to instigate the Rulers to Persecution , and to Transporting of men to be as Slaves and Vassals for their Religion and Conscience ? Or where did any of the true Ministers or Apostles endeavour to exclude either Jews or Gentiles from their outward civil Rights and Priviledges , or from the benefit of the civil Law of their Nation ? or endeavour and seek to set such a Mark upon them meerly for their Principle or difference in Judgment and Opinions ? Let this Prebend shew us a President , Precept , or Example among the true Christians in all the Scriptures of Truth for this his work . As for Apostacy and Athism , it is not amongst us , but among many professed and owned as Sons of that Church he is a Member of , who are run into a spirit of Liberty and Debauchery , whereby the Earth is corrupted , and the beauty of much of the Nation stained , and the profession of Christianity scandalized , and made odious in the eyes of Mahumitans , and other Nations ; but as for these things , he and his Fraternity can connive at and overlook them , while they can contribute to uphold them in their Pride , Idleness , and Fulness ; who notwithstanding cannot therein acquiess without envying the very Being of others more rational , prudent , and righteous then themselves . Well , you that appear in this cruel persecuting , domineering , Lordly spirit ; the Earth grows sick of you , and will assuredly vomit you out , and you will become a by-word and a hissing to the Nations , except you lower your Top-sayls , and bow down to the equal , just Principle of God in you , and so come into some lowliness , tenderness , and humility of spirit , out of the nature of the Beasts of prey , into the nature of Sheep and Lambs . Otherwise God will greatly debase you , and bring his Judgments upon you ; the Mouth of the Lord hath spoken it in and through his Servants , G. W. W. S. Some few Errors and Defects , in Letters and Points have escaped the Press through the expedition hereof , which the Reader may correct . PAge 4. line 11. for Spirit , read Scriptures . p. 5. l. 31. r. Magistrates . p. 6. l. 5. r. wives . l. 33. r. humans . p. 8. l. 14. for stife . r. strife . l. 29. for differently r. indifferently . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65878-e130 * As in Ross his View . * Whereby we call for Justice , and Equity . Notes for div A65878-e2160 Ecc. Cron. 567. Ecc. Cron. f. 599.