A true and faithful accompt of the most material passages of a dispute betwixt some students of divinity (so called) of the University of Aberdene, and the people called Quakers held in Aberdene in Scotland, In Alexander Harper his close (or yard) before some hundreds of witnesses, upon the fourteenth day of the second month called April, 1675. There being opponents John Lesly. Alexander Shirreff. Paul Gellie. Mast. of Art. And defendants upon the Quakers part. Robert Barclay and George Keith. Præses for moderating the meeting, chosen by them, Andrew Thomsone advocate: and by the Quakers. Alexander Skein, sometime a magistrate of the City. Published for preventing misreports, by Alexander Skein, John Skein, Alexander Harper, Thomas Merser, and John Cowie. To which is added, Robert Barclay's offer to the preachers of Aberdene, renewed and re-inforced. 1675 Approx. 85 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 36 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. 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A63382) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 38050) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2180:5) A true and faithful accompt of the most material passages of a dispute betwixt some students of divinity (so called) of the University of Aberdene, and the people called Quakers held in Aberdene in Scotland, In Alexander Harper his close (or yard) before some hundreds of witnesses, upon the fourteenth day of the second month called April, 1675. There being opponents John Lesly. Alexander Shirreff. Paul Gellie. Mast. of Art. And defendants upon the Quakers part. Robert Barclay and George Keith. Præses for moderating the meeting, chosen by them, Andrew Thomsone advocate: and by the Quakers. Alexander Skein, sometime a magistrate of the City. Published for preventing misreports, by Alexander Skein, John Skein, Alexander Harper, Thomas Merser, and John Cowie. To which is added, Robert Barclay's offer to the preachers of Aberdene, renewed and re-inforced. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. Barclay, Robert, 1648-1690. Skene, Alexander. 71, [1] p. [s.n.], London : printed, in the year, 1675. Stained with some print show-through. Reproduction of the original in the Aberdeen University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-08 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-08 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A True and Faithful ACCOMPT OF The most material Passages of a Dispute betwixt some Students of Divinity ( so called ) of the University of Aberdene , and the People called Quakers ; held in Aberdene in Scotland , in Alexander Harper his Close ( or Yard ) before some hundreds of Witnesses , upon the fourteenth day of the second Month called April , 1675. There being Opponents John Lesly . Alexander Shirreff . Paul Gellie . Mast . of Art. And Defendants upon the Quakers part . Robert Barclay , and George Keith . Praeses for moderating the meeting , chosen by them , Andrew Thomsone Advocate : and by the Quakers , Alexander Skein , somtime a Magistrate of the City . Published for preventing misreports , by Alexander Skein , John Skein , Alexander Harper , Thomas Merser , and John Cowie . To which is added , Robert Barclay's offer to the Preachers of Aberdene , renewed and re-inforced . Act. 4.27 For of a truth , against thy holy Child Jesus , whom thou hast anointed ; both Herod , and Pontius Pilate , with the Gentiles , and the People of Israel were gathered together . London Printed , in the Year , 1675. The Epistle . Friendly Readers ▪ FOrasmuch as our opposers threatned they would Print an accompt of the debate , and boasted of a victory , we thought it our concernment for the Truths sake , and to undeceive these that may be abused by such reports , to give this true and faithful accompt of what past : which we are confident all the impartial and attentive Auditors , will affirm to be a true accompt ; neither is there any one Argument omitted that we can remember of , or any thing added . There were many things spoken extrinsick from the matter ; and somtimes confusedly two or three of our opposers speaking often at once , and also some others that were not concerned , as particularly , one Brown the Bishops Chaplain , who though he refused to Subscribe the Articles , and so was excluded from speaking , did often most impertinently interupt , and intrude himself . But these being only transcient , and no Arguments insisted on ; we have not inserted them , studdying to keep to the matter : and we do faithfully declare that we have herein dealt impartially according to our memory , as we hope such serious Auditors as may read this will acknowledge . So leaving you to the perusal hereof , we rest , Your Souls well-wishers , Alexander Skein . John Skein . Thomas Mercer . John Cowie . In the first place the Articles were read , which are as followeth . 1. IT is hereby declared that this is to be a private conference betwixt the Students of Divinity ( so called ) of the Colledges of Aberdene , and the People called Quakers , as a fulfilling of any Challenge wherein these Students may be included , within the Theses set forth by Robert Barclay ( or may have received from any of that People ) but abstract from the Publick Challenge given to the Preachers in general in the end of the English Theses ; because it is offered with particular condition of having the Publick places to dispute in , before the Auditories , before whom they conceive they have been misrepresented . 2. It is provided that when any of either Party is speaking , if any of their company offer to speak , he that is speaking is to be silent ; but if two of a Party speak at once , he that is seen to obtrude himself , shall be judged impertinent , and excluded thereby from farther access . 3. That each speaker on any of the sides have full liberty , and time to speak , without interruption of the contrary Party ; and that he that interrupts shall be debarred from farther speaking . 4. That each side abstain from School-terms and distinctions ( as much as possible ) but if any use them , that they may be opened to the People in plain English , so that any of ordinary capacity ( that are not educated in Colledges ) may understand them . 5. As for Retortions they must not be impertinent , and from the purpose ; and none shall be so insisted on as to divert us from the point , or turn the Opponent into the Respondent . 6. The day appointed for the Conferrence , is the fourteenth of April , in the Year , one thousand six hundred seventy five , ( being the day called Wednesday ) the place is to be at Alexander Harpers House or Close ( in case the Gray-Fryers Church ( so called ) cannot be obtained ) and that the Conferrence is to continue from two to five a Clock in the After-noon . 7. Both Parties shall endeavour to procure a Praeses to moderate , but not to have any decisive judgement ; yet if such a one cannot be procured , the Conference is not to be broken up . 8. And it is hereby declared that both Parties intend this for mutual edification ; and therefore intend to abstain from any thing that may obstruct so good an Event . 9. It is likewise agreed , that none shall have liberty to speak , but those that have , or shall Subscribe before the Dispute begin , these aforesaid Articles . Here Alex. Skein one of our Friends chosen Praeses for Us ( because we could not at that time procure another ) standing up with the other Praeses . Studient , It was condescended that no Quaker should be a Praeses . Quaker , We are wronged ; for we never condescended to any such thing : and seeing ye have chosen one of your way , how can we be hindered to choose one of ours . Andr. Thomsone their Praeses , There needs no debate in this matter ; for we are chosen not to have any decisive judgement , but only for the Moral part , to take notice if the Rules be observed ; or whether ye keep to the purpose . Then John Leslie had a long and tedious discourse , concerning what was fit to be done , and how we ought to dispute . G. K. Praeses . I suppose we came not to this place to hear from this Young man a long Logique discourse . R. B I desire to be heard , we being a People so generally misrepresented , as heretical and erroneous , did conceive our selves obliged to give a true and faithful account of our Principles ; which I did in a certain Paper now under debate , and that our innocency therein might appear , there was a Challenge added to the end of it , offering to defend these our Principles , if we might be allowed so to do in these Publick places where we have been so much misrepresented , and against those Persons who had there so often traduced us : To which having received no Answer , some of the Studients of Divinity come to us ; and signified that they looked upon themselves as concerned ; because mention is made of such in the beginning of that Paper . To whom we answered , that they were not the Persons challenged by Us ; as not being the Publick Preachers that had misrepresented Us : But seeing they were desirous to debate the matter , we were not unwilling to render to any , a reason of the hope that is in us ; and therefore should not decline it . And forasmuch as some did object , that we were at a loss , as engaging with them ; because there would be little advantage in case we had any victory and a greater reflection , should we appear to be at any loss . To such we had , and have this to say ; that as we are not afraid to meet with the greatest and ablest of the Preachers themselves : so the Truth leads us not to despise any . As R. B. was going on , he was interrupted . Alex. Shirreff , If it were pertinent I could easily disprove much of what is said ; but to be short , R. B. having given Theses , provoking all the Scholars of Europe and Great Brittain , though R. B. pretends in his Preface to be against School-Divinity ; yet his Theses are full of it : and there are many other contradictions , which I will not now take notice of , The Preachers and Ministers of the Word , not finding themselves concerned ; we Young-men , and but Students , have offered to dispute : in the Articles the Quakers have been very unreasonable ; and particularly , G. K. did refuse any Article should be put in , against railing ; because he said , that might be railing in me , which was not in him ; because he ( to wit , G. K. ) was immediately led by the Spirit . We have concluded , that being Young men , in case the Quakers should have any advantage , it will not be of great consequence , and if we have advantage , we hope it may be useful ; because these are the great Prophets and Preachers , of the Quakers . G. K. I could take notice of many things not true in that Young-mans long discourse ; as particularly , that R. B. hath provoked all Europe ; but I pass them by , because I 'me here exceedingiy abused ; and therefore desire to be heard : for I declare in God's ●●ar , and in singleness of my heart , I never said any such thing as is by that Young-man alledged upon me ; as I can appeal to the Auditors who were there present , but what I said was this ; I cannot bind my self , not to rail because I 'me bound already that I should not rail , by the righteous Law of God in my Conscience ; and may perhaps speak that , as believing it to be true , which ye may call railing . A. Shir. I being chiefly concerned , and having mostly occasioned this Debate , am employed by the rest to speak first ; and therefore I will impugne the second thesis , which R. B. read ; and is as followeth . Seeing no Man knoweth the Father , but the Son , and he to whom the Son revealeth him , Mat. 11.27 . And seeing the revelation of the Son is in , and by the Spirit ; therefore the Testimony of the Spirit , is that alone by which the true knowledge of God hath been , is and ca● be only revealed ; who as by the moving of his own Spirit converted the Chaos of this World , into that wonderful order , wherein it was in the beginning ; and Created Man a living Soul to rule and govern it : so by the revelation of the same spirit , he hath made manifest himself all along unto the Sons of Men , both Patriarchs , Prophets , and Apostles ; which Revelations of God , by the spirit , whether by outward voices , and appearances , Dreams , or inward objective manifestations in the heart , was of old the formal Object of their Faith , and remaineth yet so to be , since the Object of the Saints Faith is the same in all Ages , though set forth under divers Administrations : moreover these Divine inward Revelations , which we make absolutely necessary for the building up true Faith , neither do , nor can ever contradict the outward Testimony of the Scriptures , or right and seund reason ; yet from hence it will not follow , that the Divine Revelations are to be subjected to the examination , either of the outward testimony of the Scriptures , or of the natural reason of Man , as to a ●ore noble , or certain Rule and Touchstone : for this Divine Revelation , and inward Illumination , is that which is evident and clear of it self , forcing by its own evidence and clearness the well disposed understanding to assent , irresistably moving the same thereunto , even as the common Principles of natural truths , move and incline the mind to a natural assent . R. B. People , this is that which we affirm , and which these Young-men are about to dispute against as false ; notwithstanding that A. Shir. had thus offered himself first to dispute , yet I. L. intruding himself put him to silence ; Beginning as followeth . I. L. That which is not to be believed as the Rule of Faith , is not to be the Rule of Faith ; but the Spirit is not to be believed as the Rule of Faith , therefore the Spirit is not to be the Rule of Faith. R. B. Having repeated the Argument I deny the Minor or second Proposition . I. L. I prove it , that which hath not a sufficient evidence , to evidence it self to be a Rule , is not to be a Rule ; but the Spirit in the Quakers hath not a sufficient evidence , whereby to evidence it self to be a Rule ; therefore the Spirit in the Quakers is not to be our Rule . R. B. ( Having repeated the Argument ) I distinguish that second Proposition , If thou meanest any Spirit in the Quakers , which they peculiarly assume to themselves as Quakers , or say they have as a part of themselves , or of Mans Nature ; we concede that such have no evidence , neither do we say that any such Spirit is to be our Rule ; but if thou meanest that Universal Spirit of God , a manifestation whereof is given to every one to profit withall ; we affirm it hath a sufficient evidence in us , and in all Men. I. L. I urge that distinction , If the Spirit hath a sufficient evidence , either this evidence is from your own declaration , or some other ; but it is neither from your own declaration , nor from some other ; therefore , it hath not a sufficient evidence . R. B. It is from both . J. L. What is it then ? R. B. That it teacheth us to deny ungodliness and worldly Lusts , and to live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present World ; this is an evidence to all Men. J. L. I prove that is not a sufficient evidence thus , That is not a sufficient evidence , which Hereticks may pretend unto , as a sufficient ground for their heresie ; but Hereticks may pretend this as a sufficient ground for their herisie ; therefore it is not a sufficient evidence . R. B. I answer this first by a Retortion ; this is the same Argument upon the matter , which the Jesuit Dempster used against your Master , viz. John Menzies : for the Jesuite pressing him to assign a ground for the Protestant Religion , which Hereticks could not pretend unto . J. M. named the Scripture , and the Jesuite further urged , that Hereticks could , and did pretend unto the Scriptures . Now what evidence can ye give from the Scriptures , which we cannot give ? yea , and greater from the Spirit , that Hereticks cannot justly lay claim to . Stud. With one voice , We will not have Retortions . R. B. Praeses read the Articles which contain a particular provision for Retortions , as being lawful , if not insisted too much on ; so the fifth Article above-mentioned was read . G. K. I offer to answer directly to his Argument without Retortion , though I pass not from the Retortion ; for it stands over your heads , which ye will never get over . Then I say , we have a two-fold evidence , which no Heretick can justly lay claim to . The one is the inward evidence of the Spirit of God , by its own immediate Testimony in our hearts . The other is the Testimony of the Scriptures , which I affirm in the Name of the People called Quakers , is the best external and outward evidence , and rule that can be given : And my reason why we have the Testimony of the Scriptures , as an evidence that we have the Inspiration of the Spirit , is this . All Men have a measure of the Inspiration of the Spirit of God according to the Scriptures testimony , That Christ the true Light inlighteneth every man that cometh into the world ; and that a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal : But this universal Illumination or minifestation is inspired ; and if all men be in measure inspired , then consequently we who are men are inspired . J. L. I prove yee have not the testimony of the Scriptures for a sufficient evidence . That which is fallacious is not a sufficient evidence . But the Scriptures testimony according to the Quakers , without the indwelling of the Spirit is fallacious : Therefore the Scriptures testimony is not a sufficient evidence . R. B. ( Having repeated the Argument ) I deny the second Proposition . G. K. The Argument is wrong in its Structure , and vitious as consisting of four Terms , which no right Syllogism should have . Stud. It is not informal , for it hath not four Terms . G. K. It hath four Terms , and this I offer to prove before either your Masters , or any other judicious Logicians in any University of this Nation . I say it hath four Terms , because it subsumes that in the second Proposition which was not in the first Proposition . At this the Students fell a laughing , and so provoked the people to lightness . Al. Skeine one of the Praesesses , I am sorry to see those who profess to study ▪ Divinity behave themselves so lightly , and so far from seriousness in such weighty matters as concern the Truths of God. G. K. I am ready still to prove that the Syllogism hath four Terms : but this being not so proper here for this Auditory , proceed ye to prove the second Proposition , which R. B. hath denied . J. L. I prove the second Proposition , That which may beguile a man is fallacious : But according to the Quakers , the Scriptures may beguile a man , without the indwelling of the Spirit : There fore according to the Quakers , the Scriptures are fallacious . G. K. This Argument is also wrong in the Structure , having four Terms . R. B. But waving that I deny thy second Proposition : For the Scripture cannot beguile any man , although men may or have beguiled themselves by a wrong use of it . A. Shir. Take notice , People , The Quakers say , the Scriptures cannot beguile you . R. B. Speak lowder yet ; for we do and have constantly affirmed it . And we hope it will help to clear us of those misrepresentations , as if we despised or spake evil of the Scriptures . G. K. I would my words could reach from the one end of the world to the other , when I say the Scriptures cannot beguile any man , for the Scripture is innocent , and a true testimony in it self ; but men do beguile themselves oft by making perverse Glosses upon the Scriptures ; the Scripture cannot be fallacious , because according to you , it is your principal rule of Faith ; & if we can prove from your own principal Rule that we are inspired , then the Scriptures testimony is not fallacious ; else your Principal Rule would be fallacious . Stud. But that is not according to vour Principle . G. K. But it is an Argument ad hominem , which ye know is lawful ; and besides , though we do not acknowledge them to be the principal Rule of our Faith ; yet we affirm , that they are a a true testimony , and the best outward testimony and Rule in the world . And besides , there is a manifestation of the Spirit in many , where there is not an in-dwelling of the Spirit , and by this manifestation of the Spirit , all men may understand the Scriptures as they do improve it . Stud. We will go to another Argument . R. B. People take notice , this Argument is left upon this Point , that according to the Quakers Principle these young men say , the Scriptures may beguil People , which we utterly deny as proved , or that can be proved . Al. Shirreffe . I argue against the later part of the second Thesis , where ye affirm , That inward , immediate Revelations are necessary to the building up of true faith . We confess that subjective Revelation is necessary , but we deny that objective Revelation is necessary , which ye affirm . G. K. Explain what ye mean by subjective and objective Revelation , that the people may understand according to the Articles . A. Sh. I explain it from this Scripture , Luke 24.17 . And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets , he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself . Here is the objective Revelation to wit the Scriptures , so that they needed not any new objective Revelation , but only that which was before ; but needed a subjective Revelation , or Divine Illumination to make them understand the objective Revelation , to wit , the Scriptures . G. K. That is not a sufficient explanation of objective and subjective Revelation ; therefore I desire to be heard , that I may open it more sufficiently , according as is provided in the Articles of Agreement . Objective Revelation , or the object of our faith is twofold , to wit , first , the material object ; secondly the formal object . Stud. Do the people understand this . G. K. I shall explain it to them , for it is necessary to the matter in hand . The material object is that which is to be believed ; the formal object is that for which principally we are to believe , or the principal motive of credibility . Now to apply , I say , the Scriptures are the material object , or a part of the ma●erial object of our faith ; but not the formal object of our faith . Al. Shir. I prosecute my Argument against such objective Revelations as being necessary to faith . G. K. We confess the Scriptures are sufficient to move us to an Historical faith , and that to a more excellent degree of Historical faith , than any other Histories in the world ; because it hath more excellent outward motives of credibility , as the consent of all ages since they were written , and of all Christians , however differing among themselves , &c. but they are not sufficient to beget in us a saving faith , without inward objective Revelation . Al. Shir. I prove such inward objective Revelations are not necessary to beget saving faith , by this Argument : If there be no such Seed in man as the Quakers maintain , then there are no such Revelations as the Quakers maintain ; But there is no such Seed in men as the Quakers maintain : Therefore there are no such Revelations , &c. R. B. ( After he had repeated the Argument ) I deny that second Proposition . A. Shir. I prove it . If there be no such Seed in men , as a substantial , living Principle , distinct from the Soul , that can be heard , seen , savoured , tasted , aad felt , then there is no such Seed in men as the Quakers maintain : But the first is true , therefore the last . And then the said Alexander Shirreffe read a passage at length out of G. K. his Book of immediate Revelation , page 6 , 7. that the Seed was such a living , substantial Principle , and that in the Seed these Revelations were only received . R. B. This is a digression from the matter , and a passing from the Theses , which should have been the subject of this days debate , to G. K. his Book of immediate Revelation . G. K. I must now appear to defend my Book , and Apologize to R. B. because I am necessitated to put my hand in anothers harvest ; Therefore I distinguish upon the word such in the first Proposition . If by such , thou meanest a substantial Principle , &c. I say , that is altogether extrinsick to the subject of the debate ; and besides it will engage us into the greatest nicities and obscurities of Philosophy and School divinity , that is not proper for this Auditory . But if by such thou meanest , An Universal Principle of Gods saving Grace in men , whereby they are capacitated both to know and do the will of God ; I affirm and am ready to maintain there is such a Principle in all men . Al. Shir. But I prove that that Seed in men is not of a substance , or substantial Principle . G. K. I am ready to defend , that it is a substantial Principle . But that belonging to the second Proposition , we ought not to come to it before the distinction of the first Proposition be discussed . Here the Students made a great noise . And G. K. appealed to the Praeses And. Thomson , who answered discreetly , that G. K. did not refuse to defend that the Seed of God was a substantial Principle ; but this was not its proper place , until the distinction of the former Proposition be discussed . Al. Shir. I shall wave the word substantial , &c. and I offer to prove , that there is not a Seed of God in men , as the Quakers affirm , if there be such a Seed , it is either created , or uncreated : But it is neither created , nor uncreated , chuse you whether . G. K. After he repeated the Argument : I distinguish the word Seed , as being either a Concrete Term , or an Abstract Term. J. L. Doth the people understand this Distinction ? G. K. I hope ye understand it , and I shall explain it to them , who understand it not . A Concrete Term comprehendeth two things ; the one in recto ( as they say ) the other in obliquo , that is to say , the one hath the other belonging to it , as merciful is a Concrete Term , which is as much as to say , one that hath mercifulness in him , and so mercifulness is the Abstract , which signifieth that one thing belonging to the Concrete . Now to apply : If we understand Seed as the Concrete , it is both uncreated and created ; for it is God himself discovering himself to the Creatures capacity , in his work of manifestation , which work is created ; but he who doth manifest himself in that manifestation is uncreated . And because he manifests himself at first in a low and small degree unto the Soul ; therefore he in that manifestation is compar'd unto a Seed ; even as Clemens Alexandrinus saith , that Christ compared himself to a grain of Mustard-seed in his inward appearance in mens hearts . Al. Shir. The Seed is not a substantial Principle , because it is the manifestation of God ; but the manifestation of God is not a substantial Principle , but accidental . G. K. That may be substantial or a substance , which in another respect is accidental , as Gold is a substance , so Silver , Houses , Lands are substances ; but they are accidental to me , because I may want them . Al. Shir. He saith , his Seed is a substance or substantial Principle . G. K. This is an abuse , I speak not of my Seed , or the Seed of man , but of the Seed of God in men . A. Shir. I prove that manifestation is not a substance . R. B. That brings us again into a Philosophical debate which is here to be avoided . I. L. I prove that manifestation is not created . Whatsoever is of God , is God : But this manifestation is of God , Therefore it is God. G.K. Take notice of this young mans blasphemy ; for if whatsoever is of God be God , then all the Creatures are God , as stones , Horses , &c. for the Scripture sayes , of him , and through him , and to him are all things . Here the Students made a noise , and fell a laughing to cover this : some of them speaking irreverently of God. G. K. I beseech you , yea , I charge you all in Gods fear , that when you speak of that Holy and Dreadful Being , ye do it with fear and reverence . A. Shir. Ye say then , this Seed is God in a manifestation : I prove it is not . That is not God which can be measured in measures , and can grow from a lesser measure to a greater , can be formed and grow up in men . But God cannot be measured in measures , nor grow , &c. Therefore this Seed is not God in a manifestation . G. K. After he had repeated the Argument , I answer , God as in himself , or as in his own Being cannot be measured or grow up , it is true . But as in respect of his ▪ manifestatione quoad nos ( or as to us ) that is to say , as he comes forth as to us , discovering himself , he or his Spirit may be said to have measures . And this I shew from Scripture : As where it is said in John concerning Christ , God gave not the Spirit by measure unto him ; implying he gave it forth in measures unto others ; and where Elisha said unto Elijah , Let a double portion of thy Spirit in upon me . J. L. He saith God cometh forth into the Creatures : I prove he cannot come forth into the Creatures , because he is in himself . G. K. He doth come forth into the Creatures , and yet is still in himself ; for he is not limited as Creatures are , who go from one place to another ; but he is in all Creatures , and in himself also ; but this young man , as I perceived by him the other day , is a nullibist in his Opinion , as they term them ; so that according to his Principle , the Soul of John Lesly is as much in France , even now as in his body , or in this place , that is to say , neither here nor there ; but herein I speak according to Scripture-words , which saith , God boweth the Heavens and cometh down ; yet not that he leaveth his own Being ; but it is spoken after the manner of men , who is every where in all his Creatures ; but manifesteth himself in several measures unto them . Al. Sh. There is nothing in the Seed but God ; therefore God in his own Being is measured forth according to the Quakers Doctrine ; for the Seed 〈◊〉 nothing but God and his Manifestation . G. K. The Manifestation is in it self and not out of it self . Can Al. Shir. be out of himself ; or can any thing be out of it self ? R. B. If some of them be not without themselves , it is like they are beside themselves . G. K. In a moral way of speaking , when a man is as a Mad-man , or beside his purpose , he is beside himself . Upon this the Students fell to debate among themselves , whether they should prosecute the Argument or not ; some being for it , and some against it , and those who were for it boasting of their advantage . G. K. I see no strength in your reasoning to glory in , it hath not the strength of a cobweb ; but if you think it hath , produce it , and if any more water remain in your Bottle , bring it out . A. Shir. Yea , we have water enough yet in our Bottle to quench your Spirit . R. B. Come on with it then . We will go from this to the eleventh Thesis , which R. B. read out , and is as followeth . All true and acceptable worship to God is offered in the inward and immediate moving and drwaing of his own spirit , which is neither limited to places , times , or persons ; for , though we be to worship him always , in that we are to fear before him ; yet as to the outward signification thereof in Prayer , Praises or Preachings , we ought not to do it where and when we will ▪ but where , and when we are moved thereunto by the secret Inspirations of his Spirit in our hearts , which God heareth & accepteth of , and is never wanting to move us thereunto , when need is , of which he himself is the alone proper Judge . All other worship then , both Praises , Prayers , and Preachings which man sets about in his own will , and at his own appointment , which he can both begin and end at his pleasure , do or leave undone as himself sees meet , whether they be a prescribed Form , as a Lyturgy , or Prayers conceived ex tempore , by the natural strength and faculty of the mind ▪ they are all but Superstition , will-worship , and abominable Idolatry in the sight of God , which are to be denied rejected , and separated from in this day of his spiritual arising . However it might have pleased him who winked at the times of ignorance , with a respect to the simplicity and integrity of some , and his own innocent Seed , which lay as it were buried in the hearts of men , under that mass of superstition to blow upon the dead and dry bones , and to raise some breathings , and answer them , and that until the day should more clearly dawn and break forth . Al. Sh. By this Thesis ye affirm , that no man ought to go about any duty without a particular impulse of the Spirit . R B. Impulse is not a word used by me , but an obscure word ; therefore say , Inspiration , or Influence . Al. Sh. Either this Inspiration ye have it in all things , or in some things , chuse you whether . R. B. We have it in these things relating to our duties of worship towards God. A. Sh. This contradicts G. K. who in his Book of immediate Revelation , saith , That in all things whatsomever , we ought to have an inspiration of the Spirit for the doing of the same ; otherwise we cannot do in faith . R. B. This is another digression and going from the purpose ; for the Question is not how far I contradict another , but what in Reason ye can say against what I have here affirmed : for when I shew you before how ye contradicted your Master , viz. John Menzies in another matter , ye would not admit it as relevant , though the Case be alike , alledging it was a Retortion , ye undertook to dispute against the Theses ; but it seems you find not room enough there , but ye must ran to G. K. his Book for further matter . G. K. I see it is more against G. K. than R. B. his Theses that you set your selves . And therefore G. K. must defend G. K. But I say , in this there is no contradiction between R. B. and me , for there is a two-fold sort of Inspirations or influences , the one General , the other Special . The General Influences are given in general , or common for the doing of all common or ordinary Actions , and by the special influences of the Spirit we are enabled to go about those special duties , as of Prayer , Thanksgiving , &c. Now of these special inspirations or influences R. B. in his Theses is to be understood ; and thus there is no contradiction betwixt him and me . R. B. To which I have this to add , there is a difference betwixt the influences of the Spirit , as we are particularly acted by them in singular and particular Acts of Worship , and as we are generally influenced by the Spirit , in so far as we come habitually to live and walk in the Spirit , for in that respect we may be said to do every thing in the Spirit , as we grow up into that state , though there be more particular influences requisit in matters of worship . G. K. I say further , particular Influences or inspirations of the Spirit are of several sorts , which are analogous or proportional to the several ▪ sorts of duties , as Preaching , and Praying are several sorts of duties . Now the particular influence to Pray , is not to Preach , and so on the contrary . Also the influences which serve to duties only inward , as to wait , fear , and love God , do not serve without a superadded influence to the performance of outward duties . Therefore every influence is to respect the duty that it is given unto . A. Shir. I prove that such particular influences are not needful to acts of worship ; thus : If such particular influences of the Spirit were needful unto outward acts of Worship , then they were also needful unto inward duties , as to waiting , desiring , loving , and feeling God : but the last is absurd , therefore the first . R. B. Having repeated the Argument , I deny that the last is absurd . G. K. Come on with that Argument : I confess , it hath some Acumen or sharpness in it ; but ex tua pharetra nunquam venit illa sagitta , this Arrow hath not come out of thy Quiver , but out of thy Masters , who hath formerly used this Argument against us . Alex. Shir. I prove the last is absurd : If the inspirations of the Spirit be necessary to inward duties , as to wait , desire , &c. then we must not wait without them ; but this is absurd , therefore is the other . G. K. Having repeated the Argument ; I deny that this is absurd ; for we cannot suppose , that ever at any time an influence or inspiration can be wanting to wait upon God , to desire , and fear , and love him ; and the particular influences to particular duties , such as Praying , Preaching , Thanksgiving is not wanting , whenever the season cometh to go about them . Al. Shir. If ye have these particular influences , why do ye not make use of them ? Why do ye not say the Grace ? R. B. It will not follow that we do not pray , nor make use of those particular influences , because at sometimes we do not take off our Hats , or speak words , which are not essential to true Prayer . J. L. I prove that that distinction concerning general and particular influences is not sufficient , That which may be a ground for a Heretick to forbear Prayer for a whole year is not a sufficient distinction ; but this may be a ground for a Heretick to forbear Prayer for a whole year ; Therefore it is not a sufficient distinction . G. K. Having repeated the Argument ; I deny the second Proposition . J. L. I prove it , for a Heretick may pretend he hath not those particular influences for a whole year . G. K. Though an Heretick may pretend , yet he has no ground from our , Principle to pretend to any such thing because these particular influences cannot be wanting , neither for one year , nor for any time that the particular duties ought to be gone about ; and if any did pretend the want of particular influences , to pray , &c. they are to be judged as guilty and deceitful , as giving that for an excuse which is not sufficient , although all have not the utterance of Prayer , so as to pray in words , nor can any pray truly in words , but by a particular Influence . A. Sh. This Influence or Inspiration is either commanding or forbidding ; so G. K. understood it : but because of the great confusion or noise , he cannot certainly say ; and upon this understanding , G. K. answered , it is not a sufficient enumeration ; for there is a midst . Praeses A. Th. Master Keith , ye know we say , nondatur medium . Students . There is no midst betwixt contradictory Propositions . G. K. But these Propositions are not contradictory ; for there is a midst betwixt commanding and forbidding . A. Shir. Either he doth command or not command ; there is no midst here , chuse you whether . G. K. He doth not command us in all things in which we are inspired ; for some Inspirations are Mandatory , and commanding , some Permissory , or permitting ; and some forbidding ; so betwixt commanding and forbidding , the midst is permitting . J. L. But a Permission cannot be an Inspiration , otherwise ye might say , a stone doth inspire you as much as God , because a stone doth permit or not hinder you . G. K. I deny the Consequence ; for I offer to shew from Scripture , that Paul when he did a thing by permission was inspired , as when he said , I speak this by permission and not by Commandment . Here he was writing Scripture by inspiration in the very time . And again , where he said , I assayed to go to such a place , but the Spirit permitted not . A. Shir. This was not a permission , but a hindering , or not a permitting him . G. K. But I gather out of these words by the Rules of Contraries , that if the Spirit did not permit Paul at sometimes , it did permit him at other times , and this permission was by Inspiration , and I hope it is lawful for me to make this observation or note upon this Scripture ; seeing your Masters will make half a dozen not so much to the purpose . But for the further opening of this matter , I distinguish of permission thus : There is a negative permission , and a positive permission : A negative permission is a simple forbearance , or not medling in any case ; and such a negative , permission is no sufficient warrant to us to do any thing . The positive permission is when God by some inward evidence or signification of his Spirit by words or otherwise , maketh us know that he alloweth us to do such a thing , although he command it not . As for Example , if a Scholar should go forth out of the School without getting of his Masters leave , this is a negative permission , and is not a sufficient ground for the Scholar to go forth : but when the Scholar cometh , and saith . Let me go forth ; and the Master answereth , thou mayest go , this is a positive permission , and not a command . Praeses Andr. Th. Examples are not Demonstrations . G. K. But they may be used to illustrate . Praeses A. Th. But the Master saith to the Scholar , exi , go forth , which is in the Imperative , and that signifieth to command . G. K. That is but a Grammaticism , for the Imperative Mood doth not always signifie to command , but sometimes to command , and sometimes to permit ; which I refer to the judgment of School-Masters who teach the Grammar . A. Th. Praeses . This is rather like a debate about Grammatications of Imperative Moods , than about the matter intended , therefore come to the purpose . A. Shir. In the prosecution of this Argument against this Thesis alledged on G. K , he will not pay his debt , because he may pretend he wants an Inspiration to do it . G. K. I hope none can blame me for refusing to pay my debt , and I pay my debt as well as any of you , nor can any be supposed that men can want an inspiration to do any such thing , and we refer our selves to the judgment of discretion in all sober persons here present . Paul Gelly . I have an Argument to propose for Water-baptism . R. B. Then let me read the Thesis , which was read , and is as followeth : As there is one Lord and one faith , so there is one Baptism , Ephes . 4.5 . which is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , but the answer of a good Conscience before God by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ , 1 Pet. 3.21 . and this Baptism is a holy and spiritual thing ( to wit ) the Baptism of the Spirit and fire , by which we are buried with him , Col. 2.12 . that being washed and purged from our sins we may walk in newness of life , Rom. 6.4 . of which the Baptism of John was a figure , which was commanded for a time , and not to continue for ever : As to the Baptism of Infants is a meer humane Tradition , for which neither precept nor practice is to be found in all the Scripture . R. B. What hast thou against this Thesis , is it not the express words of Scripture ? P. G. It is true , and therein we agree , but I oppose your meaning of it . R. B. We make no meaning in the Case , for the Scripture declareth our meaning . G. K. Ye have a large field to Dispute in ; in the last part of the Thesis , if you please where he positively affirms that sprinkling of Infants is a meer humane Tradition . Students . We will not meddle with that at this time . P. G. Either you mean by this Thesis , that Water-Baptism is ceased or not ceased . R. B. Come on , we mean it is ceased . P. G. I prove it is not ceased thus : If the presence of Christ is to continue with his Church for ever , then Water-baptism is to continue for ever , But the first is true . Therefore the second . G. K. People take notice , he saith , Water-baptism is to continue for ever ; if so , then we must be baptized in Heaven after this life with Water-baptism . Stud. He means by for ever , to the end of the world . R. B. Having repeated the Argument , I deny the sequel of the first Proposition . P. G. I prove it from Matth. 28. Go teach and baptize all Nations , &c. Here Christ commanding them to baptize , sheweth he will be with them to the end of the world ; therefore as long as he was to be with them , that Baptism was to continue . R. B. I grant the whole : but the Question is , if that Baptism be by Water , which I deny . P. G. I prove it was by water , If the Apostles baptized with water , then they were commanded to baptize with water ; but the Apostles baptized with water : Therefore they were commanded to baptize with water . R. B. ( having repeated the Argument ) I deny the Consequence of the first Proposition . P. G. I prove it thus , Either the Apostles did baptize with water by the Command of Christ , Matth. 28. or they were ignorant of the meaning of that Command , chuse you whether . G. K. It is not a sufficient enumeration , for they might have known the meaning of the Command , and yet baptized with water , not from that command , but in condescention to the weaknesses of the Jews . P. G. If they condescended to baptize with water for the weakness of the Jews though without a Command , then ye ought to baptize now with water to condescend to peoples weakness now , seeing ye confess that there are who are weak both among us and your selves . G. K. That will not follow , more than in the Case of Circumcision , for the Apostle Paul did Circumcise without a Command in condescention to the Jews , yet it followeth not that any now should Circumcise to condescend to the people who should require it . Stud. The parity is not alike , because Baptism with water was Commanded to the Apostles , so not Circumcision ; for John Baptist was sent to baptize with water . R. B. John Baptist was not an Apostle , and so not concerned in that Commission , Matth. 28. And his Baptism was to decrease , that the Baptism of Christ by the Holy Ghost might encrease . Al. Shir. It must be water-Baptism , because the baptizing of the Holy Ghost is ceased now . G. K. People , take notice , he saith the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is ceased now . A. Shir. It is ceased to be given by men , for do ye give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands . G. K. The Holy Ghost may be given without the laying on of hands , and holy men now are Instruments in conveighing the gifts of the Holy Ghost to others . R. B. Did not Paul say , Rom. 1.11 . that he longed to see them to communicate some spiritual Gift : And besides , as to the matter of condescendence , abstaining from blood and things strangled though particularly commanded by the Apostles , yet is not now to be practised by any condescention , as your selves confess . G. K. Hear what Augustine saith in the Case of Circumcision observing of meals , drinks , washing sacrifices , &c. They are to be considered in a threefold respect , viz. First as living under the Law , Secondly , as dead after the death of Christ , Thirdly , as deadly as being once buried , and being once buried they are not to be again raised up out of their Grave , out of Condescention to any , so I say the same as of Water Baptism , it being once dead and buried , is not again to be raised up now after the Apostacy . P. G. I prove that Water-Baptism was thought needful even to those that were Baptized with the Holy Ghost , Can any man forbid Water , &c. as Paul said Acts 10. G. K. Say Peter not Paul. P. G. Peter I say not Paul. R. B. That proves not all that it was done by necessity , but to condescend to their weakness . About this time the praeses , And. Th. going forth said , it was now five a clock the time appointed for the continuance of the dispute and so went away nor was there any argument farther urged . G. K. Praeses AL. Skeine , I see there is like to be no more here but confusion , seeing the other praeses is gone . I shall only propose this just and reasonable desire to these Students , that since we have given them a fair opportunity to impugn and oppose our principles , they also will promise us another day to impugn and oppose theirs . Stud. When we set out Theses then ye shall have one opportunity to impugn them . G. K. Your Theses are set out already , for your confession of Faith is your Theses , which I offer to impugn . Stud. Our Faith is established by the Law of God and of the Nation , and therefore ought not to be called in question , R. B. That it is established by the Law of God is the thing under debate , and as for the Law of the Nation , so is the Popish Faith in Italy and Spain , and Mahometanisme in the Turks dominions , will it therefore follow that Popery and Mahometanisme are not to be called in question or oppugned . Stud. We will come to your meetings and debate further with you . R. B. Our Meetings are not for debate , but to wait upon God and Worship Him , but if ye please to meet us here again to morrow , we are satisfied . Stud. We will not . R. B. It seems ye need a longer time to prepare you , for your present strength is all exhausted . Stud. We will come to your Meeting , and wait till it be done , and then oppose you . R. B. I have told you before , that is not proper , but on this condition I will admit it , that when I see meet , I may have the like opportunity to come to your meetings , and when your Preachers have done , that I be allowed to oppose and impugne your principles . Stud. No , no. The confusion and tumult encreasing thorough the removing of the Praeses . A.Th. and divers of the soberest people ; and the Students vainly boasting of their victory , laughing , clamouring , and making a noise , and telling they would cause , publish in Print their ( imaginary ) Victory , occasioned such lightness and rudeness in a rabble of the grossest sort that were without the bar , that laying hold on a heap of Turffs , they threw many of them against us without offering the least violence to our opposers on the other side , so that having beat divers with hard Turfes , Peates , and also with stones . R. B. with divers other friends received several knocks in his head , and was wounded in his hand with a stone , while as the Students ( the Masters of Art ) and their Companions who had been disputing in matters of Religion instead of interposing themselves to prevent , stood divers of them laughing , hollowing , and clamouring thereat , and so the meeting broke up . G. K. said to others more sober that were present , these are your Church-members . This true and impartial account ( which was offered to be read to their Praeses , And. Thomson but he declined it , alledging the matters treated of were so Extrinsick from his employment , and these things that took up his head , and he so apt to forget such things , that though the matter might be true he could not attest it ▪ neither for us nor our opposers ; it was also read in writing to some judicious and unprejudicate persons that were present , and are not of our way , and acknowledged by them to be according to their best memory a full and ingenious account , as may be further proved in case it be called in question ) will we hope serve to appease these empty clamours which the Students vain ostentation , and the ignorance and prejudice of others might have raised , some of whom did so little or at least will needs appear so little to understand the matter , as to affirm the Quakers were all routed , for they could prove nothing , whereas we were by mutual agreement to be meer Defendents , & not to be admitted at all to prove , but only to answer , and whether we answered not all was urged , will by this account appear , where none of the arguments are omitted , nor any whit of the strength of them concealed ; as for what was or may be accounted reflections , we have not put them in the body of the dispute , because we remember not particularly at what time they were spoken . But that we may not seem designedly to conceal any as tending to our disadvantage , so far as we remember they were as followeth . That G.K. said to I. L. he spoke more with his fingers than his tongue , after , what need he make such a work with his finger , and affect a canting tone like his Master I. M. that his head was too full of Mercury , and his heart in his tongue , whereas a wise mans tongue is in his heart . Now whether I. L.'s . extravagant behaviour did not deserve such checks while he oftentimes would be speaking when his companions were , and put them by with both his elbows , that he alone might be heard , to which add his forwardness in his blasphemous assertion above observed , let the discreet and judicious hearers judge . A. Shir. said he would overturn Quakerisme and he hoped in so doing to have his end . I. L. that he might not miss to hit as he thought . G. K. said it seemed , he was an Aberdeens man and would take his word again , which was noted by G. K. as being a reflection upon the City where I. L. himself was born , which G. K. was not , also A. Shir ▪ laughing and raising lightness called upon G. K. speaking some words if there was a Notar that he might take Instrument . To which R. B. answered , that he desired the Notar might take Instrument , how Divinity Students and Masters of Arts that were preparing themselves for the Ministry were so light and unserious in Religious matters , &c. But however if they have gotten such a Victory as they boast of , how is that consistent with what we are informed of , and is noised up and down in the City , that Jo. Menzies their Master went within a day or two to desire the Bishop to complain to the Primate and Kings Council , and procure us to be punished for holding the Dispute ; & an Order that none such further be admitted ; and indeed if the Scholars have proved so good Disputants , we think the Masters cannot in reason refuse this following offer . R. B. His Offer to Jo. Menzies Professor of Divinity ( so called ) George Meldrum , Minister at Aberdeen , and William Mitchel Catechist , at foot of Dee . AS in this late Rencountre it was specially provided , that it shall be abstract from the Challenge made to you , and so no fulfilling of it ; so now this being past , of which you have here presented to you a good and faithful account , which we hope being seriously weighed by your more mature Judgments , may allay any hasty joy that might have proceeded from the windy Triumphs the Students might have possessed you with a belief they had obtained , who at every turn to the nauseating of the more serious and impartial Auditors , were proclaiming themselves Victors , we think you more concerned ; and indeed we are the more desirous to meet and debate it with your selves ; for either this is all ye have to say , which ye have put in their mouths , or ye have more to say ; if this be all , then indeed it may be your wisdom not to accept this offer ; but if ye have more , we shall be willing to hear it , and endeavour to answer it ; and as your appearing your selves would be more satisfactory to the people , and is most desired by them as well as us ; so divers inconveniencies that hath in this , or may fall in the like would be avoided ; for first , it being in your publike houses , there would be less occasion of tumult , because the house is capable to hold divers thousands . Secondly , as it is probable ye would not so readily be put to a stand as they , if it should happen ye were : we are hopeful ye would not by raising a laughter and clamour amongst the people , and crying out three or four at once , seek to cover it , or boast of Victory , and cry out your Argument is pungent before we have time allowed us to answer it . Thirdly , you engaging we are hopeful to procure discreet , Learned , and persons every way considerable to be Judges consultative upon our part , though not professing our way , to help to moderate and keep good order . Fourthly , it is probable , that by the solemnity of such an action and the influence of your presence ▪ as well as other persons of condition being there , might secure us from the hazard of clods , and stones ; for I do truly assure you , I conceive my self more able to answer the most pungent of your Argument , than defending my self from the stones and blows of your unreasonable and brutish Church-Members . It is by some of your people objected to us ( whether it come from you or not I will not affirm ) that it is below you to engage with us ; but as this is altogether unsutable to Christian Ministers , whose Mr. disdained not daily to debate , and answer the Questions of such as opposed themselves unto him , and taught his Disciples to leave the ninety and nine , and go seek after the odd one . Next it is most unreasonable , for since ye take liberty to speak against us in your Pulpits , and particularly to designe us , yea & sometimes to speak untruths of us . I desire then to know whether it be agreeable to the Rules of Christianity , or even of common honesty , to take liberty to speak ill of men behind their backs , abuse their Principles and Reputations , and yet say it is below them to prove these Charges to the mens own faces . Secondly , it is objected , that it is against the Laws to call the faith established by Law into question ; but may not the same be said against Protestants in those Nations where Popery and Mahomitism are established by Law ; yea , is not this the very pretence and put off whieh the Papists both in Germany and France gave the Primitive Protestants , when they desired publike conferences with them ? And was not both the Emperor Charles the Fifth , and his Brother Ferdinando sorely checkt by divers Bishops of Rome for granting these Conferences ? and the Queen-Mother of France openly reproved and cried out against by Cardinal Turnon and other Clergy-men , for giving way to that of Poysy , as suffering the universal faith of the Church to be called in question , which had been established by many Laws , & for a far longer time than the Profession we oppose . It seems ye defend your selves chiefly by Popish Weapons , as will anon further appear : in order whereunto I shall speak a word or two to John Menzies , and so make an end . The greatest and frequentest Argument that both thy Scholars and others make against us , is , that we have no certain evidence by which we can make known that we are led by the Spirit that Hereticks and others cannot pretend to . Now if this may be admitted as relevant or strong against us , I desire thou wouldst be pleased to shew me how thou canst extricate thy self out of the same difficulty , when urged by the Jesuit Dempster , that the Scripture which thou assigned as the ground of the Protestant Religion is an evidence for you , seeing all Hereticks also pretend to it ? Let me see what difficulties occur in our Case as to the Spirit , which likewise occurs not the same very way in yours , as to the Scripture . For ( besides that we have as good ground to lay claim to the Scriptures as your selves , and are ready , and I hope able to prove our Principles from them as well as your selves . If ye say men may be deceived by a seducing Spirit , What then ? will it therefore follow that the Spirit of God will deceive any , or that men ought not to be guided by it , more than because many men have been and are deceived by a misunderstanding and wrong use of the Scripture , that therefore the Scripture doth deceive people , or ought not to be the Rule ? If it be said divers men pretending to the Spirit contradict one another , doth not the same recur as to the Scriptures ? What greater contradictions can there be than there is betwixt certain Churches both acknowledging the Scriptures to be the Rule ? Hast thou forgotten ( John ) how thou and thy Elder Brother Andr. Cant , who both affirmed the Scripture to be the only certain Rule , & yet oftentimes before the same Auditory in the same Pulpit did from the very same ver . of Scripture , Ps 93.5 . Holiness becometh thy house O Lord , for ever , draw different and contradictory Doctrines , Uses and Applications ? If that then will not infer according to you the Scriptures to be an uncertain Rule ; neither will the other as to the Spirit . If it be said that the same man pretending to be guided by the Spirit , hath been of different Judgments , doth not the same also recur as to the Scriptures ? Or need we go further , John , than thy self to prove this , who hath all along acknowledged the Scripture to be the Rule , and yet sometime judged the Congregational way to be preferable to the Presbyterian , & then the Presbyterian better then Independent , and now the Episcopal preferable to both ? Or tell me , John , honestly , did the Scripture deceive thee when thou preached upon that Text , Why mournest thou for Saul ? If thou say thou only here misunderstood the place , and misapplied it ; yet is the Scripture for all that true and certain ; may not the same he said , if one pretending the Spirit to be the Rule , should fall in the like error that the Spirit were not to be blamed , or thence termed uncertain ▪ but the man that mistook the voice thereof , or took his own imaginations instead of it , as thou didst thy misapprehensions for the sense of that Scripture . If thou canst extricate thy self out of these difficulties , so as to satisfie me , or any other rational and indifferent person , I may seriously say to thee according to the Proverb , Eris mihi magnus Apollo . And really thou mayst not be without hopes of making a Proselyte . But if it appear to all judicious and unprejudicate persons that John Menzies's Arguments against the Quakers are no other than the Jesuits against him ; and whatever way he can defend himself against the Jesuites , so the Quakers can do against him , and impugn and straiten him the same way , so that his Argument is like the Vipers brood , that destroys him that brings it forth . I say , if this appear , what may candid persons judge of John Menzies honesty that has asserted in Print , that Quakerism is Popery under a disguise ; and the Papists and Quakers are one . The state of the Controversie in the first place then both upon our part and yours is in Thesis and not in hypothesi , that is not whether or not we be truly ruled by the Spirit , or can give an evidence of it , more than whether ye be truly led by the Scriptures , or can give any evidence that ye are ; but whether we do well in saying the Spirit is the principal Rule of Faith ; for though divers Sects now , to wit , Lutherans , Calvinists , Episcopalians , Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists , Antinomians , Arminians , &c. do all quarrel one another , each laying claim to be led by the Scripture , & denying it of the other ; yet do they all agree in this , that the Scripture is the only Rule , will it therefore follow that the Scripture is not the Rule or certain , because none of these can give a certain evidence convincing their respective opposers , that they are led by it ? So on the other hand , though such as affirm the Spirit to be the principal Rule , cannot give any evidence to convince their Opposers , that they are led by it ; it will not follow that it is not the Rule , or that they err in affirming it so to be . A Postscript . AS the Apostle Paul said concerning the Spirit of God , that there are diversity of operations , but one Spirit , and one body of Christ , which is his Church ▪ so I may say concerning Antichrist , and his spirit and body . The body of Antichrist is but one , having many members ▪ and the spirit of Antichrist is but one in the root , though in different operations , & appearances . And what is this body of Antichrist , but all these ( whether Papists or others , though pretending to Reformation , under whatsoever designation , as Episcopal , Presbyterian , Independent , Anabaptist , or any else ) who oppose the Spirit of Christ in his spiritual appearances and operations in the body of Christ , which is his Church . A manifest instance of the truth of this , I my self of late have been an ear and eye witness of . For not many months ago I had occasion at London , both to see with my eyes , and hear with my ears , how the people called Anabaptists , some of their chief Teachers , opposed , denied , slighted , and ( by all means their earthly and devilish wisdom could invent ) laboured to make of none effect the inward evidence of the Spirit of God in his people , alledging openly in the faces of thousands , That whoever ●ould not give an evidence to their Adversaries , that they were inspired with the Spirit of God such as no hereticks could pretend to , were no Christians but deceivers . So these Anabaptists lately argued against us at London in an open Assembly . And so now since in my own native Country within these few days , I have seen the same Spirit to appear in men professedly very much differing from Anabaptists , and slighting them as a sort of Hereticks , yet one with them in the ground ; and in this particular work and service also , to carry on the great designe of Antichrist . These are some Masters of Arts , Students of Divinity , as they call themselves , in the University of Aberdene , who openly in the hearing of divers hundreds of people , some whereof were sober and judicious , did oppose the inward evidence of the Spirit of God in his people , as not being a sufficient evidence unto them , unless they could give an evidence of it unto others , even their very Adversaries , that they were inspired ; and so if we the people called Quakers could not give an evidence of this unto these our opposers , we were but deceivers . After it had been shewn them , that Papists & Jesuits used the same Argument against all the Protestants , that indeed did more militat against them , out of the Papists Quiver , than out of these our Adversaries Quiver against us . I produced the Testimony of the Scripture , as the best and most convincing outward evidence that could be given , as a witness to the Doctrine and Principle of Immediate Revelation and Inspiration of the Spirit of God , owned by us , as being in all men in some measure , and consequently in us . This is , I say , not the the best and most principal evidence , nor the greatest , that we have unto our selves , or unto one another , who are gathered into the same Faith , Spirit , and Power , for that is the immediate evidence of the Spirit in our hearts , which witnesseth both to our selves and to one another , that we are the Children of God ▪ but it is ( I mean the Scripture ) the greatest outward and visible evidence , that can be given unto our Adversaries , who in words own the Scriptures , as their only Rule , and chiefest evidences . And in doing so , I followed the example of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , who while he reasoned against the Jews , who professed to own the Scriptures , but denied him ; he brought a testimony for himself out of the Scriptures , which they in words owned as their Rule ; Search ( said he ) or ye search the Scriptures , for in them ye think ye have eternal life , and these are they , which testifie of me . Now thoug● Christ his own immediate Testimony should have been received as greater than any of his Servants , such as Moses , and the Prophets were , yet he used this , as an Argument against them , as bringing them to their own Rule ; and said he , had ye believed Moses , ye would have believed me , for Moses wrote of me . And he laid again , I have a greater testomony than that of John : and yet John was the greatest of all the Prophets . So in like manner we say , We have a greater testimony to Christ Jesus by his Spirit , and Power revealed in us , than the testimony of Moses and the Prophets , even than John , who was the greatest . But when we produce the Testimony of Moses & the Prophets and Apostles as an evidence to the truth of what we affirm , I say it should be received by our Adversaries who own the Scriptures as their chief and only Rule . For either they should receive it , or not receive it ; if they should receive it then they are faulty , who in the late Dispute at Aberdene did refuse to receive the evidence of the Scriptures , as from us , only because we say we have a greater , to wit , that of the Spirit within us , although we own the Scripture as the greatest visible and outward evidence that we can give to our Adversaries . If they should not receive the Scripture evidence and testimony as from us , because we say we have a greater , to wit , that of Christ himself immediately in us by his Spirit , then they must needs also say , for the same reason , that the Jews ought not to receive the testimony of the Scriptures as an evidence for Christ , because he said he had a greater ; and certainly he had a greater , though they would not receive it , nor could not , as they stood in their prejudice and malice , werewith they were filled against him , who did not receive him . Now this I say with freedom and boldness of Spirit to all those whether Papists , Anabaptists , Prelatical or Presbyterian Professors , who with one mouth require of us an evidence that we are inspired , or have a measure of the Inspiration of the Spirit of God and Christ in us ; I offer unto all of you the Scriptures for an evidence of this truth , viz. that the Quakers so called have a measure of the Inspiration of the Spirit of God and Christ in them ; for according to the Scriptures testimony , Christ the true Light enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world ; and his illumination is his inspiration ; I profess sincerely in Gods fear , that the Scriptures Testimony is to me as full and plain , and convincing to prove this Truth , viz. that an Illumination , Manifestation , and Inspiration of the Spirit of God is given to every man , is in every man ; as to prove this truth , that Christ , who according to the flesh , was born of the Virgin Mary , was the promised Messiah ; now if we can prove from Scripture that all men have in them a measure of this Divine Illumination and Inspiration by the Spirit of Christ , we have gained our point , which is , that we have also a measure of the same in us ; for ALL MEN doth comprehend us called Quakers , as well as other men : I see not what our Adversaries can with any colour object against this evidence from Scripture , but this , that they will deny that the Scripture bears testimony to this Universal Illumination or Inspiration of the Spirit of God in men . But this brings the matter of the debate from being personal to be doctrinal , & so puts us upon equal terms at least , with all our Adversaries , especially Prelatical , Anabaptistist , and Presbyterian , & Independent opposers whatsoever , who say , the Scriptures are their chief and only Rule . And though our Adversaries say , the Scripture doth not testifie to that universal Inspiration of the Spirit of Christ in men , that moveth us not more then when the Jews denied that the Scriptures bore testimony to him , that was born of the Virgin Mary to be the Christ . We are able by the help of God to prove from Scripture the truth of this Doctrine of Divine Illumination and Inspiration in all men , and consequently in the Quakers as much as they , or any professing Christianity upon earth , can prove any Principle or Doctrine of their Faith. Secondly , we are able , and do offer by the Grace of God against all our Opposers whatsoever , to prove from the Scriptures Testimony , that this universal Inspiration and Illumination of Christ by his Spirit in men is a sufficient evidence of Truth , and Rule of Faith and Life in all men , and consequently in us called Quakers . Thirdly , that this Divine Inspiration and Illumination , where it is not wilfully resisted and rejected , but regarded and attended , is a greater evidence than the Scripture is , and witnessed by the Scriptures . Fourthly , and yet the Scripture is the greatest visible and outward evidence that either we or they can give of their Rule . I shall conclude with a reasonable demand to these Young men , Masters of Arts , their Masters and Teachers , which is this , Whether they own these Assertions , Affirmations and Arguments of their Scholars in the late Dispute , as followeth , viz. That whatever is of God is God , that the Scriptures according to the Quakers is fallacious , and can beguil us , that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is ceased , and the rest of their Discourse inserted in this foregoing Treatise . If yea , Let them declare so much to the people , who are greatly stumbled at these their expressions , even divers of their own Church ; if nay , then let them publickly reprove and disown those words , otherwise not only we , but many others will say , ye have both taught and allowed them so to affirm . G. K. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A63382-e510 And it may here be observed , that afterwards J. L. speaking reflectingly against the Quakers , said , it was no railing to speak the truth ; which was all we pleaded for . I appeal to all Logicians , if when any thing is subsumed in a Syllogism , which is neither in the first Proposition nor in the Conclusion , whether that Syllogism hath not four Terms . N●te , divers of the Auditors were displeased with their going from the Theses . See 1 Cor. 7.6 . & compared with 40. verse . See Acts 16.7 . As in the third person in the Imperative , exeat , Let him go , is permissive . Note , that while this young man was prosecuting his Argument , J. L. did insolently intrude himself and interrupted him , and they spoke of them three at sometimes .