The Quakers quibbles in three parts : first set forth in an expostulatory epistle to Will. Pfnn [i.e. Penn] concerning the late meeting held to Barbycan between the Baptists and the Quakers, also the pretended prophet Lod. Muggleton and the Quakers compared : the second part, in reply to a quibbling answer to G. Whiteheads, entituled The Quakers plainness ... : the third part, being a continuation of their quibbles ... / by the same indifferent pen. Thompson, Thomas. 1675 Approx. 482 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 131 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A62427 Wing T1013 ESTC R41153 19645221 ocm 19645221 109270 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A62427) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 109270) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1695:3) The Quakers quibbles in three parts : first set forth in an expostulatory epistle to Will. Pfnn [i.e. Penn] concerning the late meeting held to Barbycan between the Baptists and the Quakers, also the pretended prophet Lod. Muggleton and the Quakers compared : the second part, in reply to a quibbling answer to G. Whiteheads, entituled The Quakers plainness ... : the third part, being a continuation of their quibbles ... / by the same indifferent pen. Thompson, Thomas. Hedworth, Henry. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 38, [10], 101, [11], 99, [1] p. Printed for F. Smith ..., London : 1675. Each part has special t.p., and first part has 1674 imprint. Epistle to William Penn signed: Thomas Thompson. "H. Hedworth is also suspected of being the author of 'The Quakers Quibbles'"--Smith, J. Bibliotheca anti-Quakeriana, London, 1873. Errata: p. [10] before pt. 2, p. [1] at end. Imperfect: torn, cropped, stained and tightly bound, with slight loss of print Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Muggleton, Lodowick, 1609-1698. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. -- Quakers plainness defecting fallacy. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-04 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2006-04 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE QUAKERS QUIBBLES , IN THREE PARTS . First set forth in an EXPOSTVLATORY EPISTLE to WILL. PFNN , Concerning the late Meeting held in Barbycan between the BAPTISTS and the QVAKERS . ALSO The Pretended Prophet , LOD , MVGGLETON , and the Quakers Compared . The Second Part , In Reply to a QVIBBLING Answer of G. WHITEHEADS , Entituled , The Quakers Plainness , Wherein many more of their Quibbles and Equivocations are manifested , the Comparison between them and Muggleton justified ; their Jesuitical Shifts , Evasives , Confidence , and Grand Mystery in Directing the Intention , Adverted . The Third Part , Being a Continuation of their Quibbles , Equivocations , Riddles , Rounds , and Confusions , in Ten more particulars . With some Remarks on G. W's . Slight Sheet , and a farther Account of their Mystery in Directing the Intention . By the same Indifferent Pen. London , Printed for F. Smith at the Elephant and Castle , in Cornhill . 1675. The Quakers Quibbles , Set forth in an Expostulatory Epistle TO William Penn : Concerning the last Meeting held in Barbican the 9 th of Octob. 1674. BETWEEN The Baptists and Quakers . ALSO The Pretended Prophet and last Witness Lodowick Muggleton And the Quakers Compared and Considered . By an Indifferent Penn. Job 13.6 , 7. Hear now my Reasonings , and hearken to the Pleadings of my Lips. Will you speak wickedly for God ? and talk deceitfully for him ? Job 6.25 . How forcible are right Words ? But what doth your arguing reprove ? LONDON , Printed for Francis Smith , at the Elephant and Castle near the Royal Exchange in Corhil , 1674. THE Quakers Quibbles : OR , AN EPISTLE TO William Penn. SIR , I Being one of the Auditors , and so often appealed unto by thee somtimes to do thee Right and Justice ; at other-times by several Applications thou wast pleased to make in thy Discourses , both to thy Friends and friendly Auditors ; I am pressed in mind to acquaint thee with my Sentiment and Observations this way , ( that so thy Appeal might not be idle ) not having the conveniency nor admittance to do it there . In the first place , I do really own that thou hast a Voluble Tongue , a strong Voice and clear , a grateful Utterance , and I believe good Lungs ; that thou art to be commended for an excellent Rhetorician , and a fluent Tongue ; and so was Cicero : But all this as it made not him , so it will not prove thee , a Christian ; and therefore as thou didst not deny him to be Wiser than thee , so it was not over-needful for thee to Query whether he was Better ; since somtimes thou canst tells us , that All Men are enlightned with a Saving Light , which Light is Christ in them , and so consequently Cicero might be a Christian as well as thee , if he was a Man ; and yet when thou thoughtest it would serve thy turn , thou couldst call him ignominiously Heathen as others do : But this rather deserves the name of playing Fast and Loose than Quibbling . Fine Words may catch Fools , and may take with them that see no further than th'outside , and let such be taken if they please ; But any that are able to distinguish betwixt Words , and the true Sence of them , and is willing seriously to consider of them , can never be in danger ; and for others they are worthy to be deceived . I have heard as plausible a Harangue , as eloquent an Oration from a Jesuite , wherein he painted the poor Protestants in such Colours , that he set them forth to his Auditors more like some strange Monsters , than Men indued with Sense or Reason ; but yet I cannot believe the Jesuites ever the better Christians for that . Hadst thou had this Gift of a fluent Tongue and a good Voice meerly by thy turning Quaker , ( and not partly Natural , and partly acquired at Our Schools , which now proudly thou contemnest ) then should I more highly esteem of it , and that would more Convince me of the Truth of thy Christianity , than all the Arguments I heard that day from thee , or could ever hear from thy Friends . The Members of the True Church in the Apostles time , had the GIFT OF TONGVES immediately inspired into them , upon their becoming Christians , without acquiring it by Study : And if thou canst shew me one in thy Church that hath such a * Gift or Gifts given him upon his Conversion to thy Way , it would put a clear difference betwixt thee and the Baptists , and here thou wouldst go beyond them ; But now I cannot see wherein thou exceedest them in any ( truly ) Spiritual Gift . One such Testimony , if true , in thy Church , would Confute the Baptists , and Convince thy Auditors , more than a hundred such days Disputings as thy last was . But alas ! for ought I can learn , Thy Friends , thy Church is as low , poor , naked and destitute herein as the Baptists Churches ; They in this Matter like Thee , and Thou like them ; The want of which ( it is not improbable ) may be one Reason , why you thus Oppose and Contradict one another ; One saying he hath a Vision , and th' other a Dream from the Lord ; One that it is Revealed by the Spirit within , and the other without , when the * Vision may be sealed up from you both : and thus whilst you are both in the Dark , you Wrangle and Fight , Confute and Con●●und one another to little purpose . But what do fine Words without Charity , or Shew without Substance avail , when good St. Paul says , Though I speak with the Tongues of Men and of Angels , and have not Charity , I am become as sounding Brass , or a tinkling Cymbal ? And whether in thy Words thou shewedst not more Wrath and Rancour , than Love or Charity , all might easily see . Eloquent Harangues are accounted by the said Apostle no better than the inticing Words of Man's Wisdom , and it was but a Mark of the False Teachers of Old ; and therefore Ephes . 4.14 . The Apostle gives good advice , That we henceforth be no more Children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , by the sleight of Men , and cunning Craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive . Now thou hast the Words of Man's Wisdom , * But wher 's the Demonstration of the Spirit with thee in Power and Mighty Signs ? St. Paul said , when he preached to the Corinthians , He did not come unto them in Excellency of Speech , 1 Cor. 2.1 . It is no new thing for a Mountebank or a Stage-player to have a grateful Utterance , a fluent Tongue , and perform in Words as bravely . But I cannot more commend thee for thy Rhetorick , than I must discommend thee for thy Logick ; for thou did not shew thy self more quick in the one , than dull and sluggish in th' other : When thou camest to the Reasoning and Disputative Part , how many shuffles and put-offs ? how many pittiful Evasions and poor Shifts didst thou make ? how many delays ? how much loss of time ? I was not only ashamed to see and hear it , but admired thy self and Friends did not blush at it , to see you make your Selves and Party so Ridiculous in the Eyes of Others : What Railing instead of Reasoning ! what Clamour ! what Noise ! what Tautologies ! what Disorder ! what Discord and Confusion ! No Argument to me more fully proved you to be no Christians , than your unchristian Carriage in that Meeting ; Where was the Christian Moderation , the old and pure Christian frame of Spirit in meekness and gentleness ? What was , nay , what is possible to be vain-jangling , if that was not ? Is it not strange , that you should be no wiser than to give a Challenge , ( or Solemn Offer ) and give occasion for thousands of People to meet together , and that to the hazard of their Limbs and Lives , only to be Witnesses of your Folly , Immoderation , Rancor , Malice , Obstinacy , Confidence , Unreasonableness , not to say Madness ? For my own part I came thither thinking to have heard some Sober and Rational Arguings unto Edification and Clearing of the Truth , but I profess I have oft heard more Reason and less Railing at Billings-gate : Is this think you for your praise , or the Commendation of your Way , to make your selves thus ridiculous ? I would fain know of thee , if thou art not in some degree sensible of it , ashamed and sorry for it ? Doth thy Conscience tell thee it was like a Christian Meeting , or the Dispute carried on thy part in a Christian-like manner , when thou wast transported with so much passion , and the Discourses so confused and disorderly , thou many times speaking when thy Opponents were speaking ; sometimes thee and George Whitehead , and at other times thee and Mr. Keith speaking together , and then crying out to your Auditors , to Hear , Hear , when they could neither hear you , nor you all understand one the other ? To what end did you appoint a Meeting , if when you c●me there you resolved not to argue nor answer in plainness ( except in your own Way and Will ) any Question that should be asked you concerning the Hope that was in you , with meekness and fear , according to the Apostles express Injunction ? If thou wast guided by the Spirit of God indeed , as thou pretendest , what needest thou to have shuffled and boggled so at one single Question ? And if thou wast indeed infallible , what needest thou to be afraid ( or evaded ) giving an answer to poor Men that are fallible ? And if thou art indeed a sober Christian , why didst thou not in plainness and singleness ( as your old Phrase sometimes was ) answer directly to the Question , which they cryed so often to thee to answer , and thou promisedst more than once thou wouldst ? Dost thou neither regard others Words , nor thy Own ? Sir , I do declare to thee , That I was not interessed in the Dispute any otherwise than as an Auditor , and that I do not know whether I ever saw Thomas Hicks before that day , neither did I ever speak to him , nor any from him , and therefore do conceive my self to be the more impartial , having no undue Interest , Reason , or Occasion to make me partial , or byass me more one way than another , for favour or respect of Persons o●●arties ; Yet I must needs in love tell thee , that according to the best of my understanding , Thou and thy Friends did not there deal fairly , candidly , or Christianly in several particulars : 1. In that when T. Hicks had said , that most of the Particulars he would prove , thou took'st the words out of his Mouth before he had made an end of his Sentence , and cryedst out , oh then it seems he owns he cannot prove them all , or words to that effect ; whereas if thou hadst given him leave , as he told thee afterwards , Most of them he would prove from thy Principles , and the rest by Testimonies : and so here by thy haste , to express it in thy own Language , thou madest thy self the Author of a Lye , and deal'st not Christianly ; and therein thou shewedst thy self not only a Fool but Vnjust ; for thou oughtest to have heard the Matter out , before thou hadst passed Sentence : and thus all might see how Solomon's Proverb was true of thee ; He that answereth a Matter [ Hebr. returneth a word ] before he heareth it , it is folly and shame unto him , Prov. 18.13 . 2. In that thou trifledst away so much precious time , and caused your Auditors to lose theirs , to the grand disgust of many , if not most of them , before thou wouldst be brought to agree the Dispute of that Particular which was most important ; which to many was Argument enough that ye were loath and unwilling to come to it ; and thou hadst a shift for that too , saying , Thou wouldst go over the whole Book , &c. as if thou didst not well know , at least guess , That it was not likely then thou shouldst come to it at all that Meeting , and so hadst rather spin out thy Own and Auditors time about frivolous Things and petty Stories , and yet at last didst agree to it . What reason is there that all Men must dispute in thy Method , or according to thy Will ? Were not the Terms mutually agreed on before ? If not , it had been sober Wisdom to have done it , and in default to have condescended to the Judgment of the Auditors . Was it not a shameful thing , that all the sence of so many hours Dispute may be put into less than half a sheet of Paper , and that in a great measure through your Refractoriness or Impertinencies ? 3. In that there was three or four of you that spake , three of you very much by turns , and somtimes more than one of you together at a time ; and when thou sat down , George Whitehead stood up to assist thee , and then Keith , and so round and round again ; and yet if Jer. Ives or another did begin to speak , ye would cry out Hicks , Hicks , Hicks , it is him we will hear ; when as ( if I am not misinformed ) in the conditions of the Disputation , thou or thy Friends agreed Hicks might have two or three Persons of his own chusing , and you the like of your Election : If so , Then wast thou faithful and just to thy Agreement ? Or if not so , wast thou then reasonable in thy self , to oppose thy self with three men besides against one ? Or didst thou intend he might have them with him , but thou to command them silence , or at best not hear them or answer them ; take which way thou wilt , it was not fair : Besides , canst thou indeed judg that the Nature of all Men is of a-like strength , or that T. Hicks's Nature was so strong , as able to hold out speaking and reasoning against three or four ? If so , I think thy Conscience may be as large as a Fryars Sleeve : But it seems with you it is no matter what , how foul or unreasonable soever , so it may but make for the Quakers Victory or Advantage : This I think was not fair dealing . 4. In that when thy Friends have so often disowned and denyed Distinctions , Thou and thy Friends should then answer by Distinction , and say , Our Friends Words are to be understood with this Distinction , of Christ in respect of his Godhead , or Christ in his Excellency , whereas there 's no such Distinction set down by your Friend , or in your Friends Book : And indeed if your Friends Words have not deceived me , you own nothing but the Divine Nature to be Christ ; and then , How could any such Distinction take place , if it had been there , so as to make your Friend mean ( directly contrary to his own words ) That Christ was seen with Carnal Eyes ? Is not this then one of your Quibbles ? For although thereby you make your Friend's words to be double , with two faces , to say one thing and mean another , Yet your own Principles concerning the Christ , obstructs you absolutely from clearing them , or proving Hicks a Forger in that Particular : Neither can that Distinction serve you , except you will alter your Principle , and hold that there are two Natures , which are both united in One Person , The Christ , which yet I do not understand you are free to do . Might not Tho. Hicks then rather have said in thy own language , Thou art a Forger , and hast forged this Distinction , and such a silly one as is impossible to hold good , if thy Principle touching The Christ hold true ? Canst thou be ignorant that this was only an Evasion , or no better than a Quibble ? Consider with thy self , and Thou mayest see how easily it is seen through . 5. In that when upon the Real Occasion of this thy Distinction , the Question was askt thee , Whether Christ's Humane Nature was a part of Christ ? Or , Whether the Body that was seen with Carnal ( or Corporeal ) Eyes , and heard with Carnal ( or Corporeal ) Ears was the Christ ? Thou so long refusedst to answer ; when if only innocency had been in thee , plain-heartedness , and Christian simplicity , thou mightest have done it in one word or two ; but instead thereof , I believe thou madest above a thousand , and them to no purpose but to evade an Answer , ( contrary to your former Rule , Let your Yea , be yea , and your Nay , nay ; for whatsoever is more cometh of evil ) ; One while thou wouldst tell us that which was not askt nor desired of thee , That the Body in Scripture was somtimes called Christ , and yet all the endeavours could not bring thee to say ( that I could hear ) that , That Body was Christ ; Here 's another of thy Quibbles : Is it not a pritty one , that thou shouldst tell us , that sometimes the Scripture calls the Body ( or the Humane Nature ) Christ , and yet dost not believe that it is indeed what the Scripture calls it ? The Word Christ is somtimes applied in Scripture , to Christ's Body of Flesh and Blood , that was born of the Virgin Mary , and yet thou wilt not , or darest not own that Body to be Christ , or Christ that Body : Oh horrible Perversion ! Oh fine Quibbler ! Oh strange Christian ! But for all thou wouldst hide thy self by such subtile Expressions , thou art easily discerned by any that will be any thing considerate , and not captivate their understandings ; Another time thou wouldst tell us , That thou believest Christ to be God over all , Blessed for ever , of the Seed of Abraham , &c. But was this direct to the Question ? Then thou wouldst ask them Questions , before thou hadst answered theirs which was first proposed , which me thinks was not fair . Then thou wouldst rise up and promise to give a direct Answer to the Question , and yet gave none that I could hear or understand to be plain ; and so thou didst two or three times , thy Passion , or the Interest of thy Party so far transporting thee , that thou didst not mind thy Word : Then the Auditors themselves requested thee over and over again to Answer . Dost thou think this was like a Christian to run out about a whole hour thus , not only wearying your Auditors , but frustrating their Expectations , and manifesting either your own weakness , folly , or obstinacy and unreasonableness , till many of them were constrained to cry out , Away , away Quakers , or Answer . Pray Sir deal faithfully and plainly in the thing , Why didst thou not answer it ? Or couldst thou not answer it ? Doubtless thou couldst , if thou hadst not feared giving some advantage thereby to thy Opposites ; was not this the thing ? Or was it because thou wouldst keep any of thy own Friends still in the Dark concerning this ? Or wouldst thou have thy Doctrine in this Particular remain a deep Mystery and unintelligible still ? If so , why didst thou not deal honestly , and tell us so plainly ? Or are you not agreed amongst your selves about this ? What makes thee go about to use Words so subtilly , that might seem to make us think , thou believest one thing , when indeed thou knowest , that you , or many of your Friends believe quite contrary ? Is this fair or honest dealing for thee to endeavour to blind our Eyes , or deceive our Understanding , be we either Simple or Learned ? Or if perhaps thou art of a different mind from some of thy Friends in this Particular , ( as it is reported thou hast brought them off from some ridiculous Fancies ) Why wouldst thou not honestly tell us so ? Or art thou ashamed to declare freely and plainly the bottom and whole of the Doctrine thou holdest , in so high a Concern , as of Christ's Person ? You are Charged with , and thy and thy Friends Speeches and Writings give me to understand , that you Quakers hold this Doctrine concerning the Christ of God. 1. That the * Body of Christ is not , nor was , the true Christ , but the Spirit in that Body . 2. That the Spirit in that Body , was none other but God the Father ; and so the Father is the Son , and the Son the Father in very deed , and only nomically distinct , ( and so , God the Christ of himself , and Christ the God of himself ; somewhat like as Muggleton does in this particular , if my memory fail me not ) . 3. That the True Christ is not a Person without us , and so was not visible to Corporal eyes . 4. And so of necessity you must hold , that Christ died not , but only the Body that he assumed for a time , or that was prepared for him , was laid down again . For how is it possible for you to Believe really that Christ died , when you hold that Christ is only God , and God is and ever was immortal , and so could not die ? Now either thou and thy Friends do hold these Doctrines , or the contrary : if either I or others have mistaken you herein , through your own Friends ill expressing themselves ; or if you have since changed your Opinion in this particular , what hurt can there be , and why shouldst thou be so nice , to inform us truly , honestly , and plainly like a Christian ? And if thou dost hold them , what 's the Reason thou art unwilling to own it ? Therefore I request , I pray , I earnestly desire thee ( if thou hast any love for the Truth , or for Men ) to tell me , or the World , the plain truth herein ; if not , I must still conclude thou dealest not fair nor candidly , like a reasonable Man or a Christian , or willing plainly to vindicate thy Religion . 6. In this , that when thou shouldest have Replyed , like a sober Disputant , to the Answer that Jeremy Ives gave to shew the invalidity and falshood of thy Distinction , instead thereof , thou evadest doing of it by Circumlocutions one while , and by Addresses to the Auditors another : and sometimes by giving way to another of thy Friends to begin a Discourse of some new Matter , or to raise some new Question , before the former was ended , the better to shift off the old , or bring it in Oblivion , confounding the Minds of your Auditors with other Words ; I cannot so well call this a Quibble , as a base old way of Evasion and Shifting : Do you think that we do not know this to be no new Device ? but sorry I was to see you use it . Truly Sir , I cannot but own Jer. Ives's Answer to your Distinction to be very good and pertinent ; and doubtless if you had not found it so too , you would have Replyed to it ; but I found all your mouths stopt as to that . His words as I remember were these , or to this effect , That then I , or any Man might say , by the same Reason , that Will. Penn , or Geo. Whitehead was never seen with Bodily or Carnal Eyes , because the Excellency and better part of them , viz. their Souls was never seen , though their Bodies be seen , which is not the Man. Now what an absurdity would this be ? And yet is it not the same that you said then concerning Christ's being seen and not seen , and thereby over-shooting your self , obliged Geo. Whitehead to make a long Discourse to bring you off as handsomly as he could from a Contradiction : But since you did not detect the irrationality of this Answer and Similitude at the Meeting , I should be glad to see it from you any-where else , in words that are rational and intelligible . 7. In that , Thou first crydest out thy self , ( as the Proverb is , stop Thief ) When thou hadst first made a great noise and stir , then thou appealedst to thy Auditors for Justice , and to hear thy Answer ; whereas thy Self and Friends were then the most guilty a●d greatest Offenders in that kin● , in making a clamor and pudder without giving us a direct Answer . What need was there for thee to cry out to thy Auditors to hear thy Answer , when we could hear none from thee , though we had stood waiting and gaping well-nigh an hour for nothing else ; I say , I cannot apprehend this to be fair and candid Dealing , either with thy Opposites or Auditors , but rather a neat trick of crying Whore first , as they say , at best but idle superfluous vain words , which become not a Christian , such an one as thou professed thy self to be . Really Sir , I do admire that you should or would carry your selves so , as to get a name of obstinate , unreasonable , and disorderly Men : I was told before-hand that you would never Dispute either soberly or rationally , in any due Order or Method ; and notwithstanding you are still confident and ready to appoint Disputes and Conferences , Yet when you come to it , you must have your own Will for a Law , and your own Way imposed upon your Opponents , or else you will not Dispute ; So that you give too much occasion to Persons to think and judg you a perverse Generation , obstinately confident , and confidently obstinate , without Order or Rule , Rime or Reason , Wise only in your own conceits , whom Solomon Characterises Fools , and so fit for no Man to Dispute With , except some of Muggleton's Disciples , guilty of the same perverse and unreasonable Humour with you , even to the making your selves Ridiculous , no small Testimony whereof this last Meeting proved . Why may you impose on others , and they not upon you ? 8. I will crave leave to mention one thing more at this present of my observing , and that is thy so oft using the gross word of Lying , and Forgery , and Lyar and Forger , especially in thy Books against Tho. Hicks , that it will hardly stand with good Manners ; such Language to be so common and frequent , me thinks sutes not well with a well-civilized Man , much less with a good Christian ; and what does it signifie , To say it is a — Lye , that is neither an Answer nor an Argument ; Therefore in love I should advise thee to leave off all such Billings gate-Rhetorick , and gross Language , it being more fit for Scolds that are Duckt , then to be used in Conferences or Writings amongst those that own themselves Christians , at least so very frequently . But if that be one way of Confutation , then it will be no hard thing to Confute all thy Writings . 'T is pitty so Learned a Person as thy self should be so linkt to a Party , or blinded with Passion to Eclipse the more noble part of thy Reason , by being engaged with such a People , and having received their Principles , thereby thinkest thy self obliged now to maintain them , though therein thou makest thy self Pedantick . Time and Experience may convince thee better , though I cannot hope nor expect to do it , believing that when somewhat of the height of thy Fancy , and the heat of thy Brain is spent and abated , thou wilt be calmer and wiser , and that is all the Hurt I wish thee ; In the interim I only desire thee to consider of this , if not now , yet hereafter when thou art cool . For the heat of the Dispute having so distempered the Humors in thee , and raised thy Spirit , I cannot promise my self much present good success as to thee herein , though I have hopes it may have some with Others ; So I Rest , Thy Friend in plainness , Thomas Thompson . Postscript . I Hinted in the fifth Particular i' th Margent , That some of the Quakers quibble as much about the Word [ Body ] as the Word [ Christ ] , as appears by what one of them told me , That the Church of Christ is his Body ; and when I answer'd him , That was only figuratively , or by way of Allusion , that as all the natural Members compacted together and united to the Head , make a Natural Body ; * So the Church being knit together by One Profession and Baptism as Members of a Body , become united by Faith to Christ as their Head , and so the Church is by way of similitude and metaphorically called the Body of Christ , but no otherwise that I understood ; What then , says the Quaker , Wilt thou make Christ a Monster , and say he has two Bodies ? or words to that effect . Now then after the same manner of Reasoning and Quibbling , I may as well say Mr. Keith in the Dispute , by his Distinction , made three Christs , when he told us more than once , That Christ was Most properly taken for the Godhead ( or Divine Nature ) Less properly for the Manhood ( or Humane Nature ) . And least properly of all for the Carkass . Now after this rate may not one say , That the Quaker says , There are three Christs in Scripture ; A most proper Christ . And a less proper Christ . And a Christ least proper . And that with as much truth , as for them to affirm Christ would be a Monster on the account above ? For what can be thought not only more distinct , but absolutely Different , Then The Godhead , Eternal God , The Manhood , Living Man. A Carkass , a Dead Body . Study it as long as ye will. And further by this , Mr. Keith and thou must understand and mean , Either That these Three are Three Christs , in Three distinct Persons . Or that these Three are but One Christ , in One distinct Person . Or that these Three are indeed No Christ at all , in No distinct Person . And when thou hast plainly and honestly , declared this , then we shall easily discern your Quibbling , or understand your Meaning better ; in the mean time for your condemning using Distinctions in others , and yet using them your selves , you fall under the Apostles Sentence and Condemnation , Rom. 2.1 . Therefore thou art inexcusable Oh Man , whosoever thou art that judgest , for wherein thou judgest another , thou condemnest thy self , for thou that judgest dost the same things . In the beginning of this Epistle Intimated to thee , the Gifts and the Power of the Spirit indeed , that the Christians , the members of the true Church in the Apostles days , were Gifted with , viz. Such as were visible and demonstrable to others , and for the proof quoted several Scriptures , which I thought fit to alledg , That thou might seriously Consider ( and I leave it to the Consideration of all sober and truely understanding men ) When thou comest to Condemn or Correct the Baptist Church , or and Church , with design to set up thy own as the true Church , Whether thou oughtst not to prove and Demonstrate thy Church to be truer then their Church which thou Condemnest as false , or Vnchristian , or Antichristian ; and that thou oughtest to pretend to and bring something for Proof thereof , which they , nor no false Church can pretend to , and produce as thou doest ? Is not this equitable , just and rational , agreeing to common Justice and Equity , and according to the sound understanding of all men ? Nay and is it not what the true Christian Church had , and could and did on all necessary occasions Demonstrate ? Otherwise suppose it be granted , theirs to be false , that will not prove thine to be true : Thine may be false also : But if proving theirs alone to be mistaken or False , would prove another Church to be true , the Romanists and all the Churches in the World might then as well by this prove theirs respectively to be true , as you yours . To make this yet more plain ( it being worthy thine and every mans serious thoughts ) I will give thee an Instance or two , As for Example . Here are great Contests and Disputes betwixt the Baptists and your Church : the Baptists say we are true Christians , and you Quakers are not : The Quakers say we are the true Christians , and our way is the true way , and you Baptists are not : Now I and thousands of poor Souls besides , would willingly know which of you two are undoubtedly in the Right , and which of you indeed are false and pretenders only . If any of thy Friends shall tell me , We are in the Truth , and therefore we are the true Church ; Thou knowest in thy Conscience , that is so far from an Answer , that it is only a shameful begging of the Question : For the Baptists they pretend as much that they are in the Truth , as thou dost , and it is yet to be decided betwixt you ; so that that is still the Question . If thou sayest the Light within me will testifie to thy Way , I profess really , I have minded and inquired of the Light within me what it says in that Particular , and it testifies no such thing . If thou sayest it is Demonstrable by the Effects and Fruits : very well , I have inquired into that also , and I find none among You , but what may be found amongst the Baptists also , Except it be keeping on the Hat , and saying Thou and Thee , &c. which also the Baptists , or any others , may and can do if they please as well as you . Or if thy Friends should tell me , That ye have the Spirit , and are in the Power of God ; so say the Baptists that they have : And wherein does the Power of God , or the Spirit shew it self more in you , than in them ? If thou shouldst say it is Within , but does not Demonstrate it self Outwardly ; Why then , do you trouble the Minds of People ! Can you not let it keep in its place in every one where you say it is ! and then thereby thou wouldst acknowledg the Baptists to be Externally as good Christians as your selves ; and so may be Internally for ought thou canst see , if it cannot demonstrate it self outwardly . So that here I profess in the fear of God , I see no real discriminating Character that Demonstrates you to be either truer or better than they ; if thou canst shew any , I shall be glad to see it . Another Instance is this ( in a higher nature at your own doors also , viz. In Mr. Maggleton and his Disciples : Why shouldst thou or thy Friends be believed more than Muggleton , or an Impostor ? THE QUAKERS AND THE Muggletonians Compared . 1. MVggleton says , He hath received a Commission from Heaven ; and so do the Quakers that they have ; and both much about the same time ; but of the two I think Muggleton's pretence was the first and ancienter . 2. Muggleton saith he had it by Divine Revelation ; and so do the Quakers that they had it . 3. Muggleton saith , He hath ( or is inspired by ) the Spirit of God , and so do the Quakers that they are . 4. Muggleton pretends to Infallibility , and so do the Quakers . 5. Muggleton says , He is one of the two Witnesses spoken of in the 11 th Chapter of the Revelations , that God hath given Power to Prophesie ; and the Quaker they say , They are the true Witnesses to the Light , and have received Power to Preach the Everlasting G●spel , to Prophesie , &c. or to the same effect . 6. Muggleton denies that the Father and Son are two distinct Persons , and so do the Quakers . 7. Muggleton pretends to , and produces Scripture , and yet doth not really own it for the Rule of Faith and Practice ; and so do the Quakers . 8. And all this Muggleton assert● with the highest Confidence imaginable , as great as it is possible for the Quakers to assert theirs . 9. Muggleton hath several Disciples and Followers that Believe him , and are Convinced of the Truth of wha● he asserts , as a Seal of his Ministry ▪ and so have the Quakers several Followers that are Convinced and believe them ; which they say are a Seal o● their Ministry . 10. And yet for all this , Muggleton Curses and Damns the Quakers , and that by the Heavenly Power and Commision he pretends to have received ▪ And the Quakers Judg and Damn Muggleton , and that by the Light , th● Heavenly Power and Commission they pre●end is Revealed to them . See the Book Intituled the Quaker● Neck broken , writ by Muggleton , and answered by G.F. Now then Consider , Is it not highly necessary one should know which of these two be the Impostors , or whether ( since they both pretend with such Confidence , and yet both Damn one another , and all others that Contradict them ) both of them may not be Impostors , for it is possible ? What canst or dost thou produce or pretend to more than Muggleton does ; Surely it will be a strange piece of Confidence for you to Claim Credence from People , if you cannot produce something Considerable , beyond such ( as your selves own to be ) a GRAND IMPOSTOR , and a DECEIVER . Our Saviour the True Christ said , If I bear witness of my Self , my witness is not true : But I have greater Witness than that of John , &c. The same Works that I do , bear witness of Me , that the Father hath sent Me. If I do not the Works of my Father , believe me not . If I had not done among them the Works which none other Man did , they had not had Sin. Ye Men of Israel , hear these words , Jesus of Nazareth , a Man approved of God among you , by Miracles , and Wonders , and Signs , which God did by him in the midst of you , as ye your selves also know . Let all the House of Israel know assuredly , That God hath made that Same Jesus , whom ye have Crucified , both Lord and Christ . How shall we escape if we neglect so great Salvation , which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord , and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him , God also bearing them Witness , both with Signs and Wonders , and with divers Miracles and Gifts of the Holy Ghost , according to his own Will ? Sir , Dost thou think thy self more worthy of Credit , than Jesus Christ ? Or that your Ministers ought to be believed on easier terms , than Christ and his Ministers were , you bringing to us New Doctrines and New Revelations ? Some of which yet are not such New Discoveries from Heaven manifest by the Light within as pretended , being in truth but the old Fancies of Sabellius ( manifested by him without ) reviv'd and new vamp't , not heard of till long after Christ , and then quickly exploded the Church about 1400 years ago , as any one that can read may see in the Ecclesiastical Histories . It may be thou mayst inquire what I am , that writes thus plainly to thee ; thou mayst answer thy self I am a Man , because I Speak or Write , and heard thee Discourse the Language of Men ; and so consequently thou must Judg me One that hath the Light within me . If thou wouldst know what I am not , I 'le assure thee I am neither Baptist nor Quaker , nor ever was , though I have had a love for both , and have still for many amongst you , whom I hope are innocent as to these Mysteriou● Subtilties and Quibbles of your Leaders ; But such Ridiculous doings as in th' aforesaid Meeting does rather lessen than increase it . If thou desirest to know why I Expostulate with thee unknown ; I answer , 'T is because I was one of thy abused Auditors , thou spending so much time to so little purpose , to the hazard of Mens Lives ; and because I think thou hast need of a Faithful Monitor ; If I am mistaken therein , do not blame my Charity , nor yet my plain dealing with thee in this Epistle . If thou demandest why I print it , 'T is because I would have others see it , that they might receive benefit by it as well as thee : Remembring what Solomon says , Open Rebuke is better than secret Love. And because I would have thee answer it in Print , that so Others may judg as well as I , whether thou wilt deal any fairer , more soberly in plainness and simplicity , and Godly sincerity with me , than thou hast done with others . If I have mistaken thee or any of thy Friends , I assure thee it is not willingly ; and if thou shewest me honestly wherein without Railing and ill Language , I 'le beg thy excuse and thank thee for it , I not pretending to Infallibility , my Opinion being still , so long as we are Men in this condition , Humanum est errare , notwithstanding what Spiritual-Pride , Self-Conceit , or Melancholy - Fancies may suggest to distempered Brains , or weak Heads , whose Affections may be stronger than their Reasons . FINIS . Mr. Smith , I Have thought fit to write this to thee , to let thee know , That if thou art willing to Print this Epistle thou mayest ; if not , return it by this Bearer . But if thou dost Print it , I desire thee to take care , before thou publish any of them , to send one to Mr. Pen , or to his Lodging , which I presume thou knowest , or may easily know , for I do not know where it is . I am ( though unknown ) Thy Friend Thomas Tompson . THE SECOND PART OF THE QUAKERS QUIBBLES , Set forth In a Reply to a Quibbling pretended Answer of G. Whiteheads , Intituled the Quakers Plainness &c. WHEREIN , Many more of their Quibbles and Equivocations are manifested . Also the Comparison betwixt the pretended Prophet Muggleton and the Quakers Justified ; to be True , Rational , and necessary : Whereunto is added an Advertisement to Mr. W. Penn , George Whitehead , and the Quakers . TOUCHING Their Jesuitical shifts , Evasions , and unparallel'd CONFIDENCE ; Their grand Mystery of directing the intention : with their Pope-like Power to Sanctify and unsanctify words . By the same indifferent Penn. Job . 21.34 . How then comfort ye me in vain , seeing in your answers there remaineth falshood . LONDON , Printed for F. Smith at the Elephant and Castle in Cornhil near the Royal-Exchange , 1675. THE CONTENTS , THE Epistle to the Vnprejudiced Reader , demonstrating how G.W. hath with his own hands destroyed his own Cause , and pluckt up by the Roots , the grand Principles of the Quakers Religion . The Introduction being some Remarks on G. W's Preface , and his Treatise in general , SECT . I. Wherein the Author clears himself of self-contradiction and charges G.W. with several Self-contradictions or Inconsistences & new Quibbles . SECT . II. Setting forth the Quakers Quibbles , Equivocations and Confusions about JESUS CHRIST , his Manhood , his humane Nature , his Person , his Body , and his Flesh . SECT . III. Demonstrating the Quakers Quibbles about , and Ignorance of the True SPIRITS Evidence and Demonstration , who deny the Gift of Tongues , and Signs , &c. As also of the Quakers Miracles , and Pope JOAN . SECT . IV. Justifying the Comparison betwixt Muggleton and the Quakers , to be both true , rational , honest and necessary . SECT . V. Touching Sabellius and the Agreement of the Quakers Doctrine , with his touching the three Persons , notwithstanding their Quibbling . An ADVERTISEMENT to George Whitehead W. Penn and the Quakers , Touching , I. Their JESUITICAL Shifts and Evasions in answering their Opponents Books . II. Their unparallel'd Confidence in their Vindications of their grand Prophet G. Fox's Falsities , and Nonsence . III. Their grand Mystery of DIRECTING the INTENTION in matter of Blasphemy . IV. Their POPE-like Power to Sanctify and unsanctify words at their Pleasure . The Quakers Character of the Quakers Quibbles . George Whitehead in his Quakers-Plainness , P. 14. Speaking of certain true Gifts of the Spirit , which were Spiritual-Gifts , and Evidence indeed , says thus , And what if God will not bestow such Gifts and signs NOW , must we therefore be no Christians ? P. 71. Speaking of the Titles that the Quakers use to give to , and write on some of their Books says thus , Such Titles therefore have been not STRICTLY , but FIGURATIVELY placed upon some Books . Quis non ridet ? Qui non videt suo se jugulavit gladio . Unprejudiced Readers , IT is no small thing but well worthy of your serious taking notice , that G.W. being by many reputed so close , so cunning and crafty a Man ( as no doubt , but that in some things he is ) yet should be so far infatuated and over-sho●t himself here ; as to let fall from his Penn , and publish in Print to the World , two such Sentences , the one by way of Interrogation , and the other of Position : Which if duly weighed and applied absolutely destroys his own Cause , and answers himself ( in effect ) in all he writes : Argumentum ad hominem . The first by way of Interrogation , effectually enervates , and plucks up by the very Roots the whole of the Quakers Religion . 1. For put the Case , the Dispute be about immediate Revelation from God , which the Quakers assert as one of their grand Principles , and deny others to be true Christians , that have it not : Why , G. W's words will as well serve for an Answer against himself . What if God will not bestow such Gifts now , ( as immediate Revelation ) must we therefore be no Christians ? 2. So as to Divine Inspiration now immediately by the Spirit , as the Apostles had . Why G. What if God will not bestow such gifts and signs now , must we therefore be no Christians ? 3. So as to being sent and Commissioned by God , and called by the Spirit to Prophesy and Preach the Gospel as the Apostles indeed were in the Primitive Church , and the Quakers now pretend to . Why alas George ! What if God will not bestow such Gifts and Signs now ? Must we therefore be no Christians ? 4. So for the Light within , which the Quakers so much talk of and pretend to , as their great Principle ; What if God will not bestow such Gifts and Light now , must we therefore be no Christians ? 5. So for their Doctrine of Infallibility : What if God will not bestow such a Gift now , must we therefore be no Christians ? 6. So for their Doctrine and Pretence of the Gift of discerning of Spirits : What if God will not bestow such a Gift now , Must we therefore be no Christians ? And thus you see , how by this Question he cuts the throat of all their own Pretensions , and shakes the very foundation of his own and the Quakers Religion . BVT can any be so ignorant as to think that God will inspire , call , send by Commission , persons immediately , and give no such Gifts or Signs , that may distinguish them from others , whereby we may certainly know they are so inspired , call'd Commissioned , and sent ; and not Pretenders only ? The second by way of Position , puts such an Answer into the Mouths of George Whitehead's and the Quakers Opponents , that if they please to make use of it in like manner as G.W. himself hath done , He , nor all the Quakers in England , can never be able either to conf●te or confound their Adversaries . For let W.P. or George himself , object what they can against them , let them but have , and take the like Liberty as G.W. himself ●ath here done , which they cannot refuse to others , they using it themselves ; without the greatest injustice and unreasonableness ( not to say impudence ) and it will be impossible for the Quakers to fix any thing upon them : let them but say ( as why may they not as well as the Quakers , if they have but so much confidence ) such titles or words are not strictly but figuratively placed in or on our Books And all 's done . And therefore here I think , I might on this ground of the Quakers ( if they will have that to be admitted ) undertake to do Mr. Hicks that service Gratis , and G.W. also , ( though I never promised it to one or other , nor was desired by either of them to do it ) as to answer all G. W's second part of the Quakers Plainness , or at least to enervate the chief sinews of it , only using of George's own words , Mutatis Mutandis . As for example , how silly is it for thee G.W. to take exceptions against the Title of his Book ( and that was one of the chiefest matters of the Charge at the first , till the Anabaptists had pretty handsomly handled you and beat you off from that , by producing a Book or Books of your own Friends , who writ after the same manner ; ) A DIALOGUE betwixt a Christian and a Quaker : why cannot T. Hicks tell thee ( like as thou thy self art so silly in thy own case to tell him ) that such a Title was not STRICTLY but FIGURATIVELY placed on his Book ? and then for all the rest of his words , wherein W.P. and thou chargest him with Forging , and Forgeries , Slanders and Lies ; Thou hast here taught him a short way to the wood , and so may Answer thee if he please , all in few words . Such Titles , such words or sayings , are not strictly , but figuratively placed and put down in his Dialogues : and thus George himself hath taken the pains to answer and confute himself , and hath with one blast of his mouth , blown away those dismal great charges of Lies and Forgeries laid on his Adversaries . Oh! kind-natured Man ! But I dare say it was against his intention , only he could not tell how to clear his Friends otherwise ( from other Mens charge of Blasphemy ) viz. for preferring their pittiful Pamphlets to the Holy Scriptures ; and so by shunning one Rock , he hath split himself on another . I am of the Opinion that when T. Hicks comes to understand this , he will say that he is as much beholden to G.W. for making his way so easie by this one Sentence as by any advice twenty of his Friends could give him . Now I would not have any Quaker mistake me , and say I deny all figures , for I own that there are some Metaphors in the Scriptures and that some Parables are therein written , which must necessarily be interpreted Metaphorically and Figuratively ; but this I deny , that therefore the whole Scripture is a Figure , or all of it to be figuratively interpretted . This I only hint , on purpose to prevent the Quakers mistake who when they please I find will wilfully mistake others if they think they can make any advantage by it though never so base : But this I say , 1. That the Quakers have excluded themselves from using of Figures , they having so long and so often witnessed that all Figures were ended , and they were come to the end of all Figures , and were come to Christ the Light , which was the substance and the end of all Figures . 2. That if notwithstanding the Quakers ( in contradiction to themselves ) will take the Liberty to make use of Figures , in their words and writings , and the Interpretation of them , then they cannot ( without gross injustice and impudent partiality ) deny to others the same liberty and the use of the same thing they take themselves , and so the matter will hold good all along . The Apostle says , Rom. 14. and 22. Happy is he that condemneth not himself , in that thing which he alloweth . And thus , Courteous Readers , you see , that G.W. hath furnished such weapons for his Adversary . That if he will but make use of them as he may , he must mortally wound the Cause of G.W. and all the Quakers . And thus G. W's Discourse in so many Pages may be effectually enervated in these few lines . Now this being so , I cannot but foresee ( though I pretend not to be any such Prophet as the Quakers do ) that the Quaker will wind and twine , kick and winch , flatter and flutter to extricate himself out of this Net and Fetters which he hath so ( ingeniously ) caught and lockt himself in . But I think now he hath put himself there , I shall be able to hold the Leviathan , and the more Rope I give him , the less danger . ( But still I intend to keep him fast ) . I cannot but expect there will be great pulling and drawing here by the Quakers to Wiredraw , Draw-in , or draw-back ; these words again . Surely some curious mincing and mangling we must expect about this good time ; Now some new-invented QUAKERS QUIRK or QUIBBLE might serve at a dead lift , to extenuate , divide , distinguish , or extinguish it into Atomes . What can they find better now than a Jesuitical equivocation ? But if they served seven years at Rome for it , yet 't is a Question whether it will quit their cost ; for G.W. knows ( it seems ) it is a scornful fellow he hath to deal withal ; that will believe no more of the Quakers pretences than other mens , without BETTER PROOF . 'T is ten to one if the more they flutter , they do not more be-fetter themselves ; they cannot thus dance in in a Net , but some Body will see them , and they are as easily seen through as they boast they can see through others . G. Fox in the Epistle before G. W's Divin . of Christ , hath these words [ We Charge thee , shew us a verse in Scripture that speaks such Language , and where one word may be put for another by Metalepsis ? and so leave People in doubts and Questions . ] Thou mayst see , Courteous Reader , the intent of this Epistle is not to praise or commend the following Discourse to thee , let it speak for it self , and as thou findest , so Judg ; but not without throughly considering of it , laying aside all Partiality and private Interest to particular Sects ; otherwise if thou art byassed either to the Quakers or Baptists , or any other , more than to Reason and Truth it self , it will prove the more difficult for thee to Judg aright , For the first thing a Man must do ( according to wise Charon's advice ) that would find Wisdom and embrace the Truth , is to disingage himself and discharge his understanding of all his former ( and prejudicate ) Opinions ; yea , though in themselves some of them may be true , and take no more of them up again , than what he shall find sure evidence , good Authority , or sound Reason for : and as to the rest , I have for many years thought it better either to suspend ones judgment , or to acknowledg ones fallibility or Ignorance , till better and certainer evidence presents ; than vainly to dogmatize and proudly to pretend a certain knowledg of things or principles where we have not so clear and undoubted evidence , as if we should ( so weakly ) think , that our own fancies and meer pretences must indeed be or serve for reason and evidence to all others , especially if it be well considered how strong & strange impression● that one humour in Men's Bodies , viz. melancholly alone , will sometimes make in peoples fancies & imaginations , which humor many think was very predominant among the Quakers at their first coming up , and may be yet among some of them though others of them are grown pretty Jolly , and will take a Cup of the Creature as other Men may do in a Civil way to refresh their hearts : Therefore to conclude , if any will Judg with sound Judgment they ought to lay aside all Prejudicate Opinions they have received , either by Education or otherwise ; and so if you shall think good , you may please to read on , and I shall subscribe , Your true Friend , Thomas Thompson . ERRATA . READER , THE Authors Distance not admitting him to attend the Press , there hath happened some small faults and omissions of Interlined words , the most material of which he intreats thee in the first place to correct with a Pen. p. 3. l. 4. dele no , l. 5. r. shalt . p. 13. l. 33. r. give . p. 17. l. 6. r. however . p. 28. l. 7. r. Quakers . p. 35. l. 1. f. may , r. should . p. 36. l. 18. r. as hath Essentially . p. 37. l. 26. r. some of themselves . p. 49. l. 31. ad 20th . p. 52. l. 29. f. Sign , r. Signs . see p. 51. l. 6. f. Prophecy , r Miracles . p. 54. l. 10. r. pay andrad . p. 55. l. 30. r. Call. p. 60. l. 21. add 8th . p. 61. l. 18. r this opposers . p. 64. l. 29. dele can . and add ( ) p. 66. l. 10. add ( ) p. 67. l. 10. r. this ( so called ) p. 81. l. 21. r. Quakers in their conceits . p. 86. l. 24. f. may be , r. not be . p. 87. l. 6. f. Plumbs , r. Plums . p. 93. l. 5. f. this , r. this in it self . The Second Part OF THE Quakers-Quibbles . The Introduction containing some remarks on G. W's Preface and his Treatise in General . WHereas the Author of the Pamphlet ( Geo. Whitehead ) pretends to Answer an Epistle directed to Will. Penn , stiled , THE QUAKERS-QUIBBLES , and therein to demonstrate the QUAKERS-PLAINNESS ; I find he doth no●hing ●ess , but instead thereof , hath set forth many more QUIBBLES of his own , and the Quakers ; as I ●hall presently evince to you : So that if any Person should have doubted , when only they saw them set forth in my Epistle ; Surely they cannot now , that so eminent a Quaker himself hath published a New Edition of Quibbles and Quirks too . And whereas G.W. would appear a very plain meek and moderate Man , stiling himself and the Quakers [ US HIS [ God 's ] PEOPLE ] and though he be a Quaker , yet would make you believe ( if you would be no wiser ) he is a more impartial-Man to his own Sect , than that indifferent Person , which is neither Baptist nor Quaker ( who writ the QUIBBLES ) : But now to use his own words , ( which serve better against him , than for him ) let the serious Reader consider , and judg of this man's Moderation and Ingenuity ; wh●● in his pretended Answer , instead of impartially relating matters of Fact ( for others to judge of ) all along bears upon the Baptists and me , with hard Language , Taunts , and Quibbles : comparing 〈◊〉 and them to Papists and Jesuites , as if we had served seven years at Rome ; calling us a Stingy Generation of Hypocrites and Apostates ; styling my Epistle Abusive ▪ a very partial and scornful Pamphlet , accusing me with Injustice , Wickedness , a dark Spirit , Canting , Quibbles , deceitful Dealing , and Hypocritical Pretences ; absurd , unjust , partial , scornfully aggravated , scandalous and wicked ; savouring of meer Ignorance and Envie ; Idle Quibbling and envious Canting ; Irreverent Quibbling , Socinian-like ; Faithless Demands ▪ being in the Unbelief ; A partial and self-contradictory Pen , smiting in the dark , envious , and unjust ; with falshoods , traducing , and Canting-Language , &c. By which one may perceive , the Man has learned to Cant , for in his Book you have this Canting-Quibbles , Envious Canting , and Canting Language ; and much more of the like Nature . How now Quakers ! Is this your impartial plain Man ? Is this one of your US GOD'S PEOPLE ? As though your Sect ALONE , had a Patent to be God's People ; Or is it not an Impropriation ? Can you think he hath well palliated-matters , either with indifferency , moderation , or impartiality between us ? or that such work will make a Pacification or end the Controversie ? No , No. Such deceitful dealing , & Hypocritical pretences , will stand you in no stead . And yet I must think he hath dealt kindly with me too , that he hath not been pleased to afford me some of his , and his friends Old Language of Conjurer , Sorcerer , Blasphemer , Serpent , Sott , and thou Reprobate , thou Dragon , thou Antichrist , thou accursed , thou Cain , thou dead Beast , thou art unredeemed from thy vain Conversation , and so art not justified , 〈◊〉 , nor never shalt be . Oh! thou dark Beast and Conjurer ; with much more which Ed. Burroughs did use in the compass of about three Leaves ; the like I never heard in my Life before , from one Man : And what think you , should be the occasion of all this ; no more but a Ministers sending or proposing twenty Questions to him , whereas he and they have put hundreds and hundreds of Questions to others . I am of the Opinion , that any sober Man which shall read this , would hardly think it credible , but that he may see it in Ed. Burroughs work pa. 29. and so on . And Reader , that thou mayest know that George Whitehead himself hath been no ill Proficient in this Quaking School of Quakers Complements ( and by the way note these are the men that are offended at using the word Sir or Sirs ) I will give you but a taste , only what you may find in a leaf and two lines more , in one of his Books ; I dare affirm you will say it's proof enough and too much for a thousand leaves of any sober man's ! The Book is intituled ISHMAEL AND HIS MOTHER CAST OUT INTO THE WILDERNESS among the Wild Beasts of the same Nature , in Answer to Mr. Townesend Minister in Norwich , set forth by G. Whitehead and three other Quakers , which they say , was GIVEN FORTH FROM THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IN THEM ; p. 11 , 12. THOU PRIEST OF BAAL , FOR THAT IS THY NAME ; thy lies are made manifest : sham● covers thy face ; THOU FULL OF ROTTENNESS ▪ and most FILTHY Dreams , THOU BLIND SOT , SEE thy Confusion . They that are not stark blind may see thy Rottenness and thy Foundation , to be in t● m●re and dirt , and may see Thee to be a SENSLES● NATURAL BRUIT-BEAST ; Who with thy li● art MADE to be taken and DESTROYED . OH THOU BLASPHEMER , and Slanderer of the Ju● when wilt thou cease from thy LIES and BLASPHEMY — Priest , to conclude thy filthy rotten stuff , th● sayest they that make not the Word of God the Rule f● their Actions , are led either by their own Fancies , or t● Devils Temptations , or both . Thou PRIEST TOWN● END , art here laid open ; & thou art uncovered , and he● thou art found to be a denier of the Word and Rule , an● Foundation ; and thou art led by thy Dreams , and Fa●cies , and thy Foundation is in the Dust & THOU AR● RESERVED IN EVERLASTING CHAINS VNDER DARKNESS , FOR EVERLASTIN● FIRE . And here thou in all these thy Lies , AR● SHUTOUT FROM GOD , and all the Children ● God , among the DOGS and SORCERERS , and TH● LAKE IS THY PORTION , which is the portion ● all Lyers . THUS have we returned a FVLL Answer unto thy senseless stuff , &c. Pag. 10. THO● BLIND BEAST — Thou that sayest that th● SCRIPTURES REVEAL GOD , THOV ART A LYAR . These are his words , and much more ( which I a● weary of Transcribing ) in two Pages , and two line● only ; and the rest of the Book is much of the same sort : And what do you think all this was for , that should be so high a Provocation ? Only , the Ministers saying that the Scripture was our Rule so long as we live on Earth , or to that effect . Now for G. Whitehead and his fellows , to entitle and Father on the HOLY GHOST , such Beastly rotten stuff on SUCH AN OCCASION , and say , that this their rayling cursing and damning a man everlastingly , for such a cause , was given forth by the SPIRIT OF GOD , as they audaciously do , how nigh it borders on BLASPHEMY INDEED , I leave the serious Reader to Judg ; and consider , whether these Fruits do not more resemble those of the FLESH , than them of the RIGHT SPIRIT ; do but compare them with the notes the Apostle gives you , Gal. 5.19 , &c. Let the Quakers at other times make what fair pretences they will , By their Fruits you shall know them , and our Saviour saith , out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh . This was not done in haste , only on a suddain surprise of passion ( which might have been the more excusable ) or upon the highest provocation ; but upon such deliberation as Men use to take in writing of Books , and upon a Consultation and Approbation of three or four Quakers together , UPON NO OTHER OCCASION THAN WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD , which seems so abominably gross , that I am doubtful while I am writing , my Reader may suspect it ; and some Quakers pretend , I have wronged G. Whitehead , Wherefore that all doubtful persons may be satisfied that I have not wronged them , it 's my intention ( if conveniently I can ) to procure the Bookseller to let G. Whitehead's Book be shown at the Shop for their satisfaction . If this be their Spiritual Heavenly Doctrine , their immediate Revelation , and infallible Inspiration , God preserve me from it , and from spiritual pride ; and keep me humble and little in my own eyes , still to confess my fallibility , whil'st it pleases him we should be in this state and condition . Possibly one may find th● worst of the Rabble , the very dregs and wickedness o● the World , INSPIR'D with such-like RAILING and damning language upon slight occasions : But hardly any where else , that I know of , except among the Quakers , or Muggletonians , who have used it so frequently as if they took the greatest Pride in it : As though they think themselves set over all others to to judg and damn them in a serious manner at their pleasure . If I should believe such a cursing damning Spirit in the Quakers to be the Spirit of God , then on the same ground , I must believe Muggleton's Spirit to be the Spirit of God ; for his is likewise a cursing damning Spirit , to such as oppose him . But in this respect Muggletons spirit is the more charitable of the two , that he curses only the Ministers , and such as pretend they have a Commission to be teachers ; But the people that hear them , he says , may be saved i● they do not personally oppose him or his Commission . Then judg , sober Reader , where you think the● malicious Spirit reigns most now ? which is the best language , and which sort of Complements is unfittest to be used among civil persons and sober Christians ? Oh! that men should strain at such a term as Sir , and yet can open their black mouths in such foul terms , and Titles as you have heard . Now if all this ( which is my chief aim herein ) will not bring them to Repentance for , nor perswade them to leave off , such censuring and hard-speeches , or sham● them out of the so common and frequent use of it ; to those that see not ground sufficient to believe them , I do here let them know , from henceforward , I shall nor tye my self up , from using such a Liberty of Speech as I shall judg meet ; however I 'le endeavour to use as little as conveniently I can ( not being over-fond of it ) I being still of opinion that to tell a Man he lies , is no good Answer nor Argument , & that the frequent use of it ( as the Quakers do ) becoms not a well-civiliz'd man overmuch Where he begins to his unprejudiced-Reader , p. 3. his words are General , and will serve the baptists turn , or another Profession as well as , if not better , than his : They can write this against thee G.W. and thy Friends , viz. [ If the TRUTH could have been overcome by falshood , or buried under reproaches , or stopt with Popular Cla●ors , or undermined by the secret Combinations of its Adversaries , or supprest by Injustice or Partiality ; I confess these implacable and envious Men , who are chiefly concerned against us , would have had the day ; and their Iniquity been triumphant , and remained uncontroulable . But such their Weapons and Engines , have not prevailed , nor ever shall effect the Enemies Designs against God's Cause or Heritage ; Had they been Men of Tender Conscience , or respected the Honour of Religion more than Interest and Popular fame , they would not have given us occasion for these publique Contests , neither by abetting a manifest Forger , nor by lying Pamphlets or false Relations , that they so frequently bring forth , and cause to be spread against us : But their hard Hearts , their fretful striving Spirits vent forth their Envy , and declare their Spleen and i●●-will towards us , only that they want Power to effect their Revenge upon us : to evince this , I could give divers Instances , that an Inveterate Persecuting Spirit hath long been , and yet lives and works in divers of these Quakers , Teachers and Leaders . ] They can if they please , call you as you do them , a stingie Generation of Hypocrites and Apostates , many of you having ( as they say ) been but Apostates from their Church , and they can tell you , that many such of late do busie themselves , and take Counsel together like malicious incendiaries against them : But that God will bring their Counsel to naught , and scatter the proud in their Imaginations ; And that they have a secret sadness and sorrow of Spirit , because of the great loss , declension , and Apostacy , that divers even of these Quakers are fallen into . Oh! the former Zeal , Religion , tenderness of Conscience , &c. But now at one that is a Quaker himself hath plainly told you , The old Serpent is got up into you again , and you are run into the World , and the fashions and delights thereof again , and that you are run into outward forms , and have lost the Spirit and the power that once you enjoyed , and now you are become as Worldly , Proud , and Covetous , as some others are . As to your Sufferings , if you would have me guided by that meerly , then I must abundantly prefer the Church of England , and Reformed Churches beyond-Sea ; Nay and the Churches in Poland , to be in the Truth , before yours ; for that all their Sufferings for Religion , have been more and eminenter , than yours , in several respects : First , in the extremity of the punishment and sufferings themselves ; how many of the Church of England ( which you have so much condemned ) have expir'd in the flames for the defence , and Testimony of their Religion ! how many strange , cruel tortures , and bloody massacres , have they had , which I did not ever hear that you have sufferred in such a degree ! Though I could heartily , with all my Soul wish , that you had not suffered so much , as heretofore you have done . 2. In respect to the number of sufferers , how many thousands , and ten thousands , Butchered at a time ! you only had some few happened to dye in Prison , which yet I wish might have been prevented . 3. In respect of duration and continuance for many years . Yours but for a short time , and blessed be God that hath inclined the heart of our King to mercy . Thus you see clearly , that in this Proof or Evidence , the reformed Churches beyond the Seas , and the Church of England doth far exceed you . As for W. P's sincere-heartedness , p. 5. I have not much to say for it ; 't is likely , I may have somewhat to say against it if occasion be offered ; but as for his Zeal I am apt enough to believe , that it sometimes outruns his knowledg . But why might not this sincere-hearted , and Zealous Man , W.P. Answer this Epistle , it being particularly directed to him ? could any person do it better than one that was sincere-hearted , and Zealous too ? If W.P. had Answered it , and he indeed so sincere-hearted as G.W. pretends , I should have been glad of it ; for then he had saved me much of this labour which G.W. hath put me to , by reason of his unsincerity , and double-heartedness , in his pretended Answer ; Or did G.W. Answer it , that so he might set out the praise of W. P ? Because it was not so convenient for W.P. to commend himself in his own Person , as it was hinted of Hickeringel . But it seems ( W.G. says ) I thought m●●t ( whether he means the Man George , or the Light within , I know not , ) to write that brief Tract though it be not directed to me ] Well George , since I could not have an Answer from W.P. it seems I must be contented with such an Answer as thou wilt give me . Or , dost thou only intend to Practice here , as I observe thou didst in the late Dispute ? first endeavour to throw off all by Circumlocutions and Evasive words ; and if that will not nor do , then W.P. to come in either ope●ly , or covertly to thy relief : We shall see whether this will be the sequel of thy undertaking and Answer , and not that sincere hearted Man , to whom it was directed ; and so I perceive I am like but to have an insincere Answer . [ We find the said Pamphlet subscribed with the Na●● Thomas Thomson . Whether this be the real Author's Name ( says he ) some question . But he doth not tell us who questioned it , though the Book-seller will tell you if you question him , That G.VV. himself , & others of the Quakers have so much , and often questioned him about it ( as if they had had some power of the POPISH INQUISITION ) that he could not be quiet for them ( they more than once gathering a Multitude of People about his Shop ) by their crying , BRING OUT THE MAN , BRING OUT THE MAN TO US , LET US SEE HIS FACE . Why George , what wouldst thou do with him ? I assure thee he hath a Nose in his Face , as well as any Quaker hath : What if the Author , instead of Th● . Thomson had subscribed M.A. could not VV.P. have joyned N. ( after VV. L's way of Addition ) and then have read it thus , A MAN ? But since thy friends so MAGISTERIALLY commanded this poor Man ( the Author of that moderate Epistle ) to be brought forth to them , 't is happy for him that thou art so ignorant ( for all thy boasting Revelations ) and that thy Light leaves thee in so much darkness of the Author , that thou canst not tell ( when thou readest it , ) whether it is the real Author's Name or no ; for if he had been brought forth at the QUAKERS MANDAMUS , he could not tell what QUAKERS SPIRITUAL-COURT , might have been erected for him ; neither could he have hoped to have faired better there than in the POPISH INQUISITION , if you had but as much power : But blessed be the Lord that as yet you have not . It appears the Author did not only believe , but now experiments to be true what he wrote , viz. That he had ground to question , whether your pretending to Inspiration , and immediate Revelation , was not only a bare pretence , and self-confidence , without having ANY MORE to show for it than OTHERS had ? Otherwise , if what your great Prophet Ed. Burroughs said , be true , tha● the Spirit of Christ gives infallib●lity of Judgment , and discerning into all cases and things ; and that he had believed you had had it , he could then never have imagined you should at all have doubted , but have been infallibly assured , whether that Epistle was writ by the person that subscribed it or not . But what if it happen that you are not acquainted personally with the Author , are there not a thousand , and a thousand , that you do not personally know ? Is the Author or his Book ever the worse or better for that ? surely no. Suppose , the Author be a private person , and is not ambitious to seek the publick applause of Men , what hast thou to say to it ? What if he dwells fifty or sixty Miles from London , or that his occasions call him to Chester , Ireland , or any other remote place ? Must he come up to London of necessity to be gazed upon by the Quakers ? is this reasonable think you ? What does my person signifie to the merit of the Cause ? that 's that which they ought to mind , if they were ingenuously Honest , and not my person : Whatsoever that may be to the reputation of an Opinion , I am sure it is nothing to the TRUTH of it , that such or such a Man holds it ; as one of the Church of England hath rationally said ( whom doubtless the Quakers must acknowledg to be an indifferent person , and not interessed in the late disputes ) ; and therefore it seems very absurd , and ridiculous in any Argument to meddle with that , which nothing concerns the Question : Besides , no Cause stands in need of such mean and un●anly Artifices , but such an one as is extreamly baffled , yea desperate ; and even then are they ( says he ) the worst Arguments in the World to support it ; for quick-sighted men , will see through the Dust they endeavour to raise , and those that are duller will be apt to suspect from their being so angry and waspish that they have but a bad matter to manage . I wish the men that I have now to deal with , were arrived to this degree of perfection , that they had so much ligh● and rationality , as even one of that Church ( which they have condemned as being in the dark ) to their shame doth see and declare . But to return , at last it seems , George hath hit on 't when he tells you [ What-ever he be , he writes like a confident Controuler of W.P. and the Quakers , and would seem to be some body ] pag. 6th . Well said George , a thousand to one else , but that he was some body , except he was all Spirit , and no Body , which I am apt to think George himself is no , tas much as he pretends to the Spirit . [ I ! But he writes like a Confident Controuler of W.P. and the Quakers . ] And why is VV.P. such a Gent. that he may not be upon any Terms controuled ? Or the Quakers such ingrossers of confidence that none may use it but themselves ? What 's VV.P. a Pope or a Prince that he must not be controuled ? Oh! daring some Body that presumes so much . What , controul VV.P. what controul the Quakers ! And which is worst yet , I find Geo●ge is a little angry ( for want of other matter ) that some of the Anabaptists have commended it for an ingenuous piece ] How ! Is that possible ? to be ingenuous and yet controul VV.P. ? how can any Quaker admit of that ? But says George ( another of the most material things he hath to find fault withal ) his Complement of SIR , and THOU SIR , and THOU , as also , Mountebank Fool , &c. with much more such Language to VV.P. looks but oddly ; a strange way of Complementing ( says G. ) ! from such a Person as would be thought a Moderator . ] Now Reader whether this be even or odd , I have not reckoned up , but I think it was very oddly done of G.VV. to express himself no evener ; for here the Man is pleased to find fault wi●h the word THOU , as well as thou Sir. When surely he forgets that one of his great Prophets ( G.F. and others ) thought the Quakers such Shuttle-Cocks as that they had need of so large a a Battledoor for to learn them , HOW MAN THOU'D GOD , and GOD THOU'D MAN. Oh pure Language ! Is not this Spiritual-Doctrine think you ? Such as the Quakers are likely to be sent with , and Commissioned from Heaven about ? And yet now are these Quakers so faced about , that one may not thou VV.P. without being worthy of Reproof ; whether this be folly or Pride , I leave others to enquire . But , says G. VV. [ a strange way of Complementing ! ] , viz. Sir , and thou Sir , &c. ] well , well , G. gives us hopes then that he will set up a new and better way of Complementing ? For here he doth not deny Complements , or the way of complementing , only gives you to understand that mine is a strange way , and looks but oddly ; but yet if G. had not forgot himself , it 's neither so odd nor strange but that the Apostles used it , Acts 14.14 , and 15. Now what wilt thou say that Paul and Barnabas used a strange way of Complementing here ? If so , when thou set's up School , and I find I have need to learn , I 'le come to thee ; in the mean time I hope thou wilt hold me excused . Yet I charge thee to Answer if thou canst , whether the word SIR , is a Complement , & if the Apostles did not use it ? See Joh. 20.15 . But see how these Men can when they please , strain at Gnats , and swallow Camels . To say , Sir , is dangerous , but to call a Man , Sott , and blind Beast , is with them Religious , and pure Language . As for the Word Mountebank , I did not say VV.P. was one ; but I said & say again , that 't is no new thing for a Mountebank or Stage-Player to have a grateful utterance , or fluent Tongue , &c. and so , that being a natural or an acquired gift in VV.P. proves not him to be any more immediately inspired , than it will so prove a Mountebank or Stage-player , and do thou deny it if thou canst . But whoever the Author be ( G. hath it over once more ) his work will further declare what dark spirit it came from , and that it much resembles that of a Prejudiced angry ANABAPTIST , only disguised , &c. ] This surely should be G 's Master-piece , though he does not know mens Bodies , yet he knows their Spirits ; yet I wonder how the Man should come acquainted with dark Spirits , I thinking he had pretended to have no Converse but with Spirits of Light. However , I can and do assure him , he is mistaken , and as ignorant of one as he confesses himself of the other ; I denying all prejudiced angry Anabaptists Spirits , as much as he lawfully does or can do . As to this pretended Answer in General , I do further observe that he craftily all along takes me for a Baptist , or would jumble me with them whether I will or no ( though I did so ingenuously profess to VV.P. and the World in my Epistle , that I was none , nay never was ) which he does wilfully , that so he might in like manner jumble his Answer , and so instead of Answering me , as at first he pretended , he palpably and deceitfully evades it , and shuffles me off , sometimes to , and sometimes with the Anabaptists ; and this I and you must it seems take for the Quakers plainness . Now how he could possibly think that I , or if I , that all other understanding Readers , would be so fob'd off , I cannot imagine : As Dark as I am , I am clear enough sighted to see that , and so some think I had no need to make a Reply , because he hath wrote almost nothing in Answer to me , but talks to the Baptists : Oh poor shift ! Oh pittiful shuffle ! seen through as it runs through thy Book with half an eye ! Yet , however that G. might have no occasion vainly to boast , of his Quibbling undertaking the QUAKERS-QUIBBLES , I shall endeavour to enlighten him where he is wilfully blind , and shew him where his real Fallacy is instead of Pretended Plainness . And to take that false Cover from him , and vindicate the baptists as to their Innocency in that particular ; and for further satisfaction to all People , I do hereby declare once more , and affirm , as in the presence of God , That no Baptist , or Anabaptist so called , did see that my Epistle to W.P. till after ● had writ it ; nor had I any of their Advice or Counsel for the writing of it , or in the writing of it , as G. W. would maliciously & falsly insi●●ate to the abuse of them and me , and the world besides ▪ I say if this be the Quakers-plainness , it is neither Christian-plainness nor honesty . But I being one of the Auditors at the Meeting , and really observing , ( as I told VV.P. in my apprehension ) a great deal of unfairness , subtilty , and Quibbling in the words and carriage of VV.P. G. VV. and G. K. it came into my heart to signifie as much in an Epistle to VV.P. not out of Pride , Envy , or Malice , but in Sobriety , and Love , ( yet faithfully ) to admonish him ; and because I was plain and down-right with them , in telling them of their unreasonableness in some particulars , and my desire of being informed in Truth and plainness ( without Railing or Quibbling ) of their Doctrines in others , Oh how they Censure my Epistle and me ! But I value it not for that I am assured from a better and higher Authority than theirs , THAT THE CURSE CAUSELESS SHALL NOT COME . SECT . I. Wherein the Author clears himself of those self-Contradictions , that G.W. charges him with ; and the Answerer charged with several self-Contradictions , or Inconsistencies . IN His First Section he is pleased to accuse me , with these four things , p. 9. 1. Partiality , 2. Confusion , 3. Hypocrisy , 4. Envy . But makes not good one of them : now if alone to accuse would make a Man Guilty , who shall , nay who can be innocent ? As to the First , G. VV. acquits me himself , p. 14. where he says I have condemned the Baptists as well as them , for wrangling and fighting in the Dark , &c. And yet if the Baptists promote the said Epistle , as such an ingenious or excellent piece , 't is more than I desire of them ; however , thereby they shew more of Ingenuity , in Commending a Piece , or owning it may be Ingenious , notwithstanding it reproves them , than you are willing to shew , because it reproves you ; who are hardly got so far as to be willing to own any thing for excellent , that reproves or condemns you : So here 's your own partiality demonstrated more than mine . As to the Second , of Confusion and self-contradictions , He is so kind to nominate but four Particulars ; he might as well have pretended , there had been forty-four , for who could hinder him ? But since the number he finds is so small , I thank him for easing me , for if he had made ten times as many , they might have been as impertinent and false , and have put me to the more trouble to blow away the dust he would raise , to hinder my Readers Eye-sight . I have heard say , That this man hath such a rare Art of making Men contradict themselves , that if one should but say a Groat at one time , & four pence at another , he would go nigh to make his silly Disciples believe that the Man had contradicted himself ; and much after the same rate it fares with me , as I shall now clear to you . 1. The first self-contradiction he charges me with , p. 11 , is , Between my commending W.P. for an excellent Rhetorician , and fluent Tongue , and so was Cicero ; and yet telling them , you give occasion to persons to think and judg you a perverse Generation without Order or Rule , Rime , or Reason : says he , was Cicero such an one then ? Reply . Does it follow , That if one says VV.P. be like Cicero in one thing , that therefore he and all the Quakers are , ( or that I said they are ) like Cicero in all things ? no surely ; let him shew me such a word : Again in p. 6. I spake of a particular person , viz. VV.P. and a particular Act , and in p. 25. I spake of the Quakers carriage generally , and then did but say , you gave occasion to persons to think and judg you so : I never had such high thoughts of the Quakers in general , as to think them fit to be compared to Cicero in many things , and where 's now the Contradiction ? Here nothing remains but one of the Quakers-Quibbles . So this I note for the first Quibble , of his New Edition . 2. The second he Charges me with , p. 11. is for saying , If W.P. had this Gift of a fluent Tongue and good Voyce , meerly by turning Quaker , it would more convince me of the Truth of W. P ' s. Christianity , than all the Arguments I heard that day from him : and my confessing , that St. Paul saith , Though I speak with the Tongues of Men and Angels , and have not Charity , I am become as sounding Brass or a tinkling Cymbal . Reply . If there be any contradiction here , it must be in G. W's . Brain , and not in my Words ; For I do still say , That the Gift of Tongues immediately inspired into those of the True Church , upon their becoming Christians , ( which was the Gift I spake of p. 7. in express words , without acquiring it by Study ) was a certain Proof of Christianity , yea ( and I do now say ) so discriminating , that I do not know , that ever we find in the whole Scripture , any others , but only Christians , that were indued with that Gift by immediate Power and Inspiration of the Holy Spirit . And accordingly the Apostle Peter took it for a sufficient and undeniable sign of their Belief and Christianity , who had received this Gift , upon his Preaching Christ Jesus to them , and thereupon commanded them to be Baptized , Acts 10.44 . &c. They which Believed , were astonished , as many as came with PETER , because that on the GENTILES ALSO , was poured out the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST , for they heard them SPEAK WITH TONGUES : Then Answered Peter , CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER , That these should not be Baptized , which have received the HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE ? And he commanded them to be Baptized in the Name of the Lord. And do thou G. deny it ( against this plain Testimony of Scripture ) or make the Apostle Paul to Contradict the Apostle Peter here , if thy Conscience can serve thee . Therefore G. thou art so far from proving this a Contradiction , that thou hast committed a great mistake , in saying , That the GIFT of Tongues is not a certain proof of Christianity : wherefore consider , what thou hast ( it's possible , only ) rashly and hastily asserted , and be not ashamed to confess thy Error . But on the other hand , though I owned SUCH A GIFT ( as before mentioned , p. 7. of my Epistle ) would be a good Proof to me , of W. P's Christianity : Yet I do not , nor never did own , that Men speaking never so MANY , nor so EXCELLENT Tongues by ACQUISITION AND STUDY , ( much less that any of W. P's . Plausible Orations or fine Harangues , ) was a certain Proof of Christianity , no , nor any Proof at all ; and those were the fine words without Charity I spake of p. 9. and where 's then the Contradiction ? Surely in G. his own Fancy ; This being natural , mediate and acquired by Study , but the other Spiritual , and a Gift immediate from God at an Instant . And although it is not to be doubted , but that the Apostle Paul had learned to speak l●ke an Orator , and more Tongues than one by Study , before his becoming a Christian , he being brought up a Scholar ; yet suppose it be granted , that he speaks ( 1 Cor. 13.1 . ) of the Gift of Tongues he had immediately , he doth not say any such thing , as that it is no certain proof of Christianity to OTHERS ; nay , so far from it , that in Chap. 14. v. 22. he asserts , Tongues are for a sign to them that Believe not , that is , chiefly to them ; ( and in the Quakers sence , such are we , who do not believe them : ) But that Charity which he speaks of , is a Proof of his , or a mans SINCERITY BEFORE GOD , that he did make use and imploy those GIFTS really in LOVE TO GOD AND HIS CHURCH , for the Planting and edifying of it , and not to any by , and base ends ; which if he should , it would profit him nothing v. 3. it would signifie nothing to his own Salvation , though possibly it might to others ▪ much like to this you have it expressed again by the Apostle in Chap. 9. v. 27. But I keep under my Body , and bring it into subjection ; lest that by any means , when I have PREACHED to OTHERS , I MY SELF should be a CAST AWAY . So that TONGUES IMMEDIATELY inspired by the Holy Spirit are a SIGN and PROOF to others of Christianity , wherever that Gift was or is found ; and CHARITY is a SIGN and PROOF of a man's sincerity before God , and of his SINCERE LOVE TO GOD AND HIS BRETHREN in his Exercise of that GIFT OF TONGUES , and other miraculous G●fts which God hath given him for the planting and edifying of his Church . But what 's all this to W.P. who alas is so far from having THAT CHARITY and SINCERITY in the Vse and Exercise of those spiritual Gifts of Tongues and Miracles , for the love and benefit of the Church , that HE hath NONE OF THOSE GIFTS TO USE OR EXERCISE AT ALL ? And where 's now the contradiction ? therefore I must note this for G. W's second Quibble . The Apostles were to stay at Jerusalem till they were endued with power from on high , viz. with tha● Spirit whereby they were enabled to speak with Tongues , being to Preach the Gospel to all Nations , and not only to those that understood only the vulgar Tongue of the Jewes . But W.P. or several of the Quakers Prophets have been sent to Preach the Gospel ( as they pretend ) to Peoples and Countrys that did not understand their Language , particularly G. Fox to America , ( where he as I have heard ) sent for at once , an Emperor and two Kings ) to Preach to the Indians in English , which they understood no● . Thus have these Prophets rendered themselves more Barbarous than those Barbarians to whom they Preached . Had not men the Light within them in the Apostles time as much as now ? If the Light within is now a sufficient evidence of the Truth of the Gospel , why not then also ? why should the Apostles , Peter and Paul have need of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghost then ? and the Apostles George and William in these days have no need of them at all ? 3. He charges this as a self-contradiction , For saying thou madest thy self the Author of a Lye , and shewedst thy self not only a Fool , but unjust ; and yet that I hint for W.P. to say , It is a Lye , is neither Answer nor Argument ; and therefore in Love I should advise him to leave off such Billinsgate Rhetorick . Reply . Oh excellent Artist ! He leaves out part of my words , and then tells me I have contradicted my self : For these words [ TO EXPRESS IT IN THY OWN LANGUAGE ] he deceitfully leaves out ; which I did in my very writing the Epistle think of , and put in on purpose to prevent any such mistake ; for thereby I gave W.P. plainly to understand , that it was his Language and none of mine ; I did express it in his Language and not my own ; that so he might be the more sensible of it . Now George , call to mind thy own words , p. 68. But if you take this kind of unfair Curtailing , which destroys the sence — is this your Care and Justice ? would you be thus served , both to wrong me , and abuse the World or your Reader ? And see how out of thine own mouth thou hast Condemned thy self , both as a partial and self-contradictory Pen. In his 3d. Sect. pa. 27 , and 28. He is up with it again , as if the man was so taken with talking about Lying , Forgery , &c. as that then only he was in his natural Element ; and rather than he would not make me to contradict my self ( because in the Margent I quoted the Apostles words , Titus 3.2 , 3. Speak evil of no Man , be no Brawlers , ) he will adventure to make the Apostle contradict or be inconsistext with himself on that ground ; for in the very same Epistle Cap. 1.12 . the Apostle says of the Cretians , That a Prophet of their own said , the Cretians are always Lyars , Evil Beasts , Slow Bellies ; This w●tness is true . And yet to go round again , p. 29. in vindication of W.P. he can tell you the Scripture proves such Language , and cites Psal . 52.3 . &c. Reply . what does the Scripture prove such Language for W.P. and not for others ? Or wilt thou blame others for what thou sayest the Scripture proves ? But where does the Scripture commend the so frequent use of it , as you make of it ? And where does the Scripture prove the use of it at all on such Occasions , as many times you use it on ? The Scripture commends Wine , and Timothy is commanded to use a little with his Water , but yet using too much of it may be vitious , and that was it I condemned in W.P. viz. using such language so frequently , and instead of Arguments , or a better Answer to his Adversaries . But that G.W. may take a liberty to say any thing , though never so palpably false , appears in p. 29. where he says , [ That it seems it is the Language , Lyer , and Forger , &c. that I find faults with , and not the Application thereof . ] Reply . That 's a mistake also , for that was the very thing I found fault with , viz. the so very frequent using or applying it to your Adversaries ; for thus are my words , p. 25. I will crave leave to mention one thing more of my observing ; and that is , thy so oft using the gross word of Lying and Forgery , and Lyar , and Forger ; especially in thy Books against T.H. that it will hardly stand with good manners ; such Language to be SO COMMON and FREQUENT , methinks sutes not well , &c. Which words I should think still were civil and moderate enough , if they were not prejudiced against all that is against them . Wherefore this I note for G. W's . third Quibble : besides a double falshood , first in leaving out part of my words , and secondly , saying I did not find fault with the Application of it which I did . 4. In the last place , he would make this a self-contradiction , viz. my saying , PERHAPS W.P. i● of a different mind from some of his friends , as it i● reported , &c. And my speaking of W. P's being engaged with such a People , and having received their Principles . Reply . Is it possible that ever any man that 's sober and in his Wits , could have the Confidence to publish his own ignorance so , as to call that a self-Contradiction , when he himself acknowledges , I say but PERHAPS , and neither affirm nor deny any thing positively , and how then can this be a contradiction ? and yet my words run more full , if it can be , p. 20. Or IF PERHAPS thou art of a different mind from some of thy friends in THIS PARTICULAR , why would'st thou not honestly tell us so ? And besides , if I had laid it down positively ( whereas you see I did it otherwise ) yet would it not have proved a Contradiction : For W.P. might have received the Quakers Principles at one time , and yet afterwards come to vary in some one particular , though not in all : and I believe I can prove if there be occasion , that most of the Quakers themselves , have changed , or varyed in some of their Principles or Practices , from what they at first Practised and gave forth . Now I do admire with what face G.W. can Print such stuff as this , and I do speak seriously , I cannot imagine how he can satisfy his Conscience in dealing so deceitfully , as he must needs know he does here with me , if he knows any thing : Is it possible that these words [ IF PERHAPS ] should be one Member of a Contradiction , as I writ it ? How can I possibly think , he can be a Man truly fearing God , that makes no Conscience of dealing thus unfairly , and representing things so falsly to his Reader by perverting the sence of my words ? which I leave every Reader to Judg of , whether this be the Quakers-plainness , detecting Fallacy , and not rather , The Quakers Fallacy perverting plainness ; and this therefore I note as his fourth Quibble . And now I hope G.W. will not say it is Forgery , or Slander , if they are charged as he relates p. 77. That the Quakers endeavour to Render their Adversaries as Ridiculous as they can , and to make their Friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves . But I have this further to say for my self , That if I had indeed committed a mistake , or contradicted my self , I had that to plead for my excuse , which G.W. commends me for , p. 44. that my opinion is , H●manum est errare , and that would have born me out , I honestly and ingeniously telling him and the World , That I pretended to no such infallibillity , as the Quakers do . And now having thus fully cleared my self , I shall try G.W. if he be not more guilty of what he accuses me , viz. self-contradictions , or at least , Inconsistences with himself , and whether this man that pretends to Infallibility , be any more infallible than others , viz. 1. What G.W. says p. 19. That they cannot deviate from Scripture-Language in their Creed , and they must tell us , that until we bring them plain Scripture that saith , the Human Nature is the Christ , they must rather patiently bear our censure , &c. Now this I humbly conceive to be inconsistent with what G.W. says , ( but one page before , viz. p. 18. ) Have we not plainly and often confest also , That the Divine Nature or Word cloathed with the most Holy manhood — was and is the Christ . For I do not find these words [ cloathed with the most Holy Manhood ] to be Scripture-Language , and yet G.W. p. 18. admits them in his Creed , neither do they bring any plain Scripture that saith so , and yet they believe it , or confess it , if G.W. says true . 2. Where G.W. says p. 20. Whether Christs Humane Nature , be a part of Christ , as it was not a Question in Scripture-Phrase or Language , so it was as abruptly and sillily obtruded . And yet p. 22 , 23 , and 25. he proposes several Questions , which are not in Scripture-Phrase or Language , viz. [ I ask you if ANY MORE of Christ PROPERLY dyed than the Body ? Do you hold that his Soul , Spirit or Divinity dyed ? and p. 44. And if he was the Son of God , and so Christ before his Incarnation or assuming Flesh ? And many more too long to transcribe . 3. His blaming me p. 10. for comparing W.P. to a Jesuite , and yet p. 31. He does the same by me , in these words [ Our present opposers do argue as exactly like the Jesuites and Papists against the Protestants , as if they had served seven years at Rome . Reader , Judg you if G. hath not now out-done me , and in that very thing for which yet he accuses me . 4. His blaming me p. 10. for using hard Language and gross Words , and yet all along his Pamphlet he uses the same Language or worse , as p. 6 , 7 , &c. Dark Spirit , silly Drollery , a Stingy Generation of Hypocrites , and Apostates , Wicked , Absurd and Unjust , Canting-Language , Envious Canting , &c. Now is he not herein Inconsistent with himself , and accuses that in another , which he allows in himself ; and so condemns himself . G.W. p. 13 , 14. Comes to speak of the gift of Tongues immediately inspired , which I told W.P. if he had , as the Primitive-Church had , would more convince me , and confute the Baptists , than a hundred such days Disputing : But instead of making an Answer to me , or shewing that W.P. or so much as any one member of his Church hath such a gift , he falls to asking Questions of the Baptists . Is this some of the Quakers plainness ? of which you shall hear more in the third Section , he having there reassumed the Answering it again . G.W. p. 16. As for two of us speaking together at a time , and crying hear , hear , says , that was to hear him that was to speak ] Yea , but you cryed out and spoke much more than those two words , and the thing I found fault with , p. 11. as disorderly , was W.P. speaking , when his Opponents were speaking , and thy and his , or G. K's . sometimes making Discourses together , and at other times one after another , and so confounding your Discourses on purpose to evade , instead of disputing in a Regular way ; and yet when another went to speak for Tho. Hicks , Mr. Penn or his friends cryed out , Hicks , Hicks , Hicks , it is him we will hear ; and this I charged upon W.P. as both disorderly , unfair , and unreasonable ; and let him get off of it , if he can , for thou sayest nothing to bring him off . Whereas , G.W. p. 16. saith further , That it is supposed , that ●igh a 100 of the Baptists would clamour together , and make a hideous noyse , and Bawling , to stop him that was about to speak . ] 'T is very probable this in some measure might be true , but whether the number of nigh a hundred Baptists , that I cannot say ; And just so I do witness the Quakers did in their Turns , several of them standing by me that owned themselves Quakers , and Bawled out after the same manner : And can it be evil in the Baptists ▪ and good in the Quakers ? And when-as G.W. says , they did not shuffle or boggle at one single Question out of fear , but because it was not W. P's place then to Answer Interrogations and unscriptural-Questions ] a poor shift indeed ! Who shall be Judges of that besides the Quakers ? Thou G.W. art no proper Judg in it . The Question was grounded on their Charge of your being no Christians , and occasioned by W. P ' s own absurd distinction , as I writ him . But then as to the matter of Fact , you here grant , you did so far boggle , as to make some intermission before an Answer was given . And as to W.P. taking the words out of T. H's . mouth , or Answering before T.H. made an end of his speech , W.P. saying , That then he owned he could not prove them all , or to that effect . G.VV. himself p. 17 , 28. cannot but own the matter of Fact , it was so palpable , only he would fain palliate it , by saying , that many apprehended T.H. made a stop , ] What then ? G. ( supposing that which yet others deny , that he made any other stop , than what is usual to make a mans words intelligible ) wouldst thou not give a Man Breath , or leave to fetch his Breath ? do you not know that the usual Practice amongst Disputants that will be either fair or honest is , to ask , Hast thou said ? Or have you done ? Is this all ? And then truly to repeat the Argument . But instead of all this , W.P. lay upon the Catch , and as it happened , by his rashness Catcht himself ; and this I apprehended as unfair dealing . And what G.W. says further , is yet worse , viz. p. 17. [ That VV.P. did not insist on the matter ] For indeed he might well be ashamed to insist on it , he finding he had been too nimble , and spoke that of T.H. which in the Event proved false , viz. then he owns he cannot prove them all , or to that effect , whereas T.H. owned no such thing . And suppose , that what you charged T.H. with had been true , to wit , that he had abused you ; will that excuse you for abusing him ? and must VV.P. say a thing of him that was VNTRVE , and then afterwards think it enough to say , he did not insist on it , and not honestly acknowledg his mistake , Error or Falshood ? No surely , and thus you have a full Reply to his first Section of Quibbles . SECT . II. In Reply to his second Section , wherein is set forth the QUAKERS QUIBBLES , EQUIVOCATIONS , and CONFUSIONS about the [ Christ of God , ] [ his Manhood , ] [ his Humane-Nature , ] [ his Person , ] [ his Body , ] [ and his Flesh . ] THat we have denied distinctions , is false ; For true and reasonable ones we deny not . ] 1. Reply . If this mans own words , had not saved me the Labour , I would have proved it , That they have denyed Distinctions : For if he says true , And reasonable ones they deny not , then certainly he grants , tha● false and irrational distinctions they do deny , and so would make my words good : ( being laid down indefinitely by me : ) and thus this great man hath done two things at once , both made good what I said , and implyed a contradiction to himself , when he says it is false , that they have denyed Distinctions , which if true , then they have owned false or irrational ones , as well as true and reasonable ones ; but for further Proof , see G. W's own words , if you will believe him , quoted at the end of this Section ▪ And yet I shall put G.VV. to another task as hard as this , by desiring him to assign by what Rule he knows those Distinctions are true , and reasonable which he esteems or calls so . For that distinction which VV.P. used , I said was absurd ( p. 16. ) considering and with respect to the Quakers Principles of the Christ ; and G.W. lets that alone , being so wise as to say nothing particularly to it , so as to clear it . For if the body was not the Christ nor any essential part of Christ , ( as the Quakers own it was not ) how could VV. P's distinction imply , as it should do , if it answered the Objection rightly without Quibbling : THAT THE CHRIST WAS SEEN WITH CARNAL EYES . For if the person which they did see with their Bodily eyes was not the Christ , I do not know how they should see the Light within , ( as they call it , ) or the Deity with their bodily eyes , and so still then according to the Quakers Doctrine , the Christ was never seen with Carnal ( or Bodily ) eyes , and VV. P's Distinction deceitful only and absurd . G.VV. p. 18. acknowledges , that they have plainly and often confest , That the DIVINE NATURE or Word , cloathed with the MOST HOLY MANHOOD , and as having taken Flesh of the Seed of Abraham , was and is the Christ : Yet , says he , we must own , that if he was the Son of God , BEFORE he took Flesh , he was Christ . And in p. 19. he grants , he doth not own the Humane Nature is the Christ , for want of Plain Scripture that saith so ; and says some do conscientiously scruple it , and pretend it is a deviating from Scripture-Language , which they cannot do in their Creed . ] 2. Reply . What a pretty medly of Hypocrisie , Quibbling , and Confusion here is , I will now shew you . For Hypocrisie , how palpable is it , in that they pretend they conscientiously scruple owning in their Creed , THAT THE HUMANE NATURE IS THE CHRIST , because , it is a Deviating from Scripture-Language , and they pretend they find no plain Scripture that says so ; when yet at the same time , they tell you , they have often confessed that the DIVINE NATURE , or Word as CLOATHED with the most HOLY MANHOOD — is and was the Christ ; and this they do without scruple of Conscience ; And yet there 's no plain Scripture that I know of , that says so , yea , and it is a Deviating from Scripture-Language ; for where can they shew me this Language in Scripture [ CLOATHED WITH THE HOLY MANHOOD , ] or such a word there as [ MANHOOD , ] and until they have done that , I must charge them with HIPOCRISY , and their pretended Scruples to be nothing but pretences and DECEIT . 3. As to their Quibbling , herein it plainly appears , that to blind the eyes of the simple , they sometimes pretend as in p. 18. to own the Holy Manhood to be Christ . And yet p. 19. Deny the Humane Nature to be Christ . By the first they would seem as if they owned the Humane Nature to be Christ , when-as indeed they utterly deny it , as you may see by the Latter . But since they own , the Divine Nature Cloathed with the most Holy Manhood , and as having taken Flesh of the Seed of Abraham , not only was , but is the Christ ; and yet say that the Light which is in every Man is the Christ , I considered with my self , whether this most holy Manhood was in every Man , and the Manhood was the Light in every Man , or a part of that Light ? Taking these words in their proper and common signification among us English Men , but so I could not find it consistent with their Doctrine of the LIGHT WITHIN ; and therefore would it not appear a pretty Quibble , if some of them do mean by MANHOOD ; not MAN really , and essentially , but only a GARMENT , or a certain quality , as Power , Fortitude , or Valour ? So when they confess Christ Cloathed with the most Holy Manhood , they mean Christ was Cloathed with the most Holy Power , Valour &c. or Cloathed with a Garment ? Or else , if they deny this , they must confute their other Principle of the Light within every Man being the Christ , or speak as absurdly ▪ if they say Christ's Manhood , as he is really and essentially Man , is within every Man. 4. And then I further enquire of the Quakers ; Whether the most Holy Manhood be indeed the Christ or a real part of Christ ? And whether the Flesh that Christ took of the Seed of Abraham ( since AS SUCH , G.VV. sometimes , viz. p. 18. confesses he IS the Christ ) be , or can be the Christ , the Light , or a part of that Light , which at other times the Quakers say is in every Man ? Or will they say , that Christ's Flesh , which he took of the Seed of Abraham , is in every Man , or is it another Christ ? See their confusions and absurdities . 5. And when they say [ before Christ took Flesh ] let them deal plainly with us , and tell us WHEN Christ FIRST took Flesh , and whether they do not Believe he took Flesh BEFORE he was Conceived and Born of the Virgin Mary ? and what plain Scripture they have that saith so ? And if Christ took Flesh BEFORE , whether it was Real Flesh , and what sort , and whether h●s Flesh that was born of the Virgin Mary was the same , or had Christ at the time of his Birth , two different sorts of Flesh , not Figuratively , but Really and Properly so called ? and all this will shew their Confusion , and the Ridiculousness of their Fancies ; for by I. Pennington's Question p. 20. it seems the Quakers do hold , that CHRIST's OWN FLESH , BLOOD AND BONES are of an ETERNAL NATURE ; And that the FLESH AND BLOOD which Christ took of OUR NATURE was only OUR GARMENT , and so of an EARTHLY PERISHING NATURE . And thus would make Christ's Flesh Blood and Bones to be GOD , for nothing can be of an ETERNAL NATURE , but GOD. Monstrum Horrendum ! hear O Heavens ! and hearken O Earth ! What can be either Confusion or Equivocation in the World , ( not to say worse of i● ) if this be not ! 6thly . G.W. pag. 19. and in several other places , says , The Quakers must have not only Plain Scripture , but Express Scripture , viz. Scripture that saith so , or else they cannot admit it into their Creed . So in G.F. and J. Stubb's Epistle before G. W's Book , intituled The Divinity of Christ : Their very first Words are , [ Whether do the Scriptures speak of three Persons in the God-head — in these express words ? Let us see where it is written , Come d● not Shuffle , for we are resolved that the Scriptures shall buffet you about , and that you shall be whipped abo●● with the Rule : Give us Plain Scripture for it without adding , or diminishing , or shuffling . We charge you Presbyterians , to give us Printed Scriptures for these following Words , and let us see in wha● Chapter and verse they are Printed , viz. Concrete , Abstract , Relative , &c. and so in this manner they ar● giving Names to CHRIST and God , besides the Rul● of Scripture , &c. And so they run on with it , over and over again . ] But now since they Impose , Command , and Charge others at this Rate , and not only so , but also pretend that they cannot admit of any thing in their Creed , but what they have plain and express Scripture that saith so . How Reasonable and Just is it to Charge them , and accordingly I do here Charge them , to produce where it is written in Scripture in these express words , [ The Divine Nature , or Word Cloathed with the most Holy Manhood , was and is th● Christ , ] which they have admitted into their Creed : Let us see in what Chapter and Verse it is Printed ? So p. 24. The distinction of Father and Son , is Real in the Divine Relation , known as Co-workers in the Order and Degrees : ] Where 's Chap. and Verse for these words ? Come G.W. Come ( Quakers ) shew me , or any other , the Chapter and Verse , where these words are written , [ viz. Manhood , entire Manhood , the most Holy Manhood , Divine Relations , Co-workers in the Order and Degrees ? ] Or henceforward be ashamed of your silly doings , and such ridiculous scribbling : I might think W.P. may yet have so much Ingenuity left in him , as that he would be ashamed of it when I consider his Learning ; but that his undertaking to vindicate G.F. for notorious falshoods and nonsence ( evident to mens Eyes and Senses and ) against his own senses and ocular demonstration , makes me much to doubt it ; see Contr. ended , p. 39. being sorry to see that so ingenuous a Man , as W.P. once was , should Sacrifice his own Senses , Reason , Honour and Reputation , to keep up the Credit of such a Man as G. F. who hath written in many things so ridiculously ( that it's impossible for any Man to vindicate him , without making himself more ridiculous ) and by his Tautologies and incoherency a sober Man would take him to be Craz'd : witness his Professors Catechism , Testimony of the True Light , and his Primmer for the Scholars and Doctors of Europe . And which is yet more , G. I have this to add , That I do not think , Tho● , nor all the Quakers in England , can bring Express Scripture for that which is your First and Grand Principle of all ; wh●ch you talk of so much above all , viz. The Light of Christ within every Man , or Christ the Light within every Man ] Now to speak in G.F. and J. Stubb's words , I charge you ( Qu●kers ) Let us see where the Scripture speaks thus , in these ●xpress words ; Let us see where it is written , come do not Shuffle , for we are resolved that the Scriptures shall buffet you ( Quakers ) about , and that you shall be whipped about with the Rule . Give us plain Scripture for it without shuffling , adding or diminishing : I charge you ( QUAKERS ) to give us Printed Scriptures for all these foregoing words , and let us see in what Chapter and Verse they are Printed : ] and if they do that , I think I may promise them to turn Quaker presently . But besides this , their Hypocrisie herein is more gross ; For to what end ( except to deceive ) should they pretend that they cannot own this or that in the● Creed , if it be not expressed in plain Scripture , whe● they have so often , and so plainly avowed , That th● Scripture is not their Rule , either for Faith or Pr●ctice ? But now for the Protestants to call for plai●-Scripture is but according to their Principle , becaus● they own it for their Rule . 7. So again , p. 19. G.W. confesses that JESUS CHRIST is MAN : one at first view might think h● spoke well , so he does , if he did but mean truly wh●● he speaks ; But that you may plainly see he doth not and may see what kind of Man he means , in the sam● Page he gives you to understand , that it is such ● Man as hath not HUMANE NATURE , and p. 24 such a Man as is not a Person without us : and wh●● kind of Man think you must or can this be ? Is no● this a fine Quibble Judg you ? That this their Equivocation may appear more plain , even to the Capacit● of the Vulgar , consider , That when the Quaker● say , that Jesus Christ is Man , They must mea● either That he is truly and substantially a Man , a created Body and Soul , or that he is an Imaginary and Fictitious one only . If the first , then they must own he is a distinct Person , & ha●h ( as essential to him ) Humane Nature , For to be a Man , is to have the Nature of Man , and every substantial Man is a distinct Person . But this they deny of Christ , & therefore they do not mean he is such a Man. If the other , viz. an Imaginary or Fictitious Man , let them say so if they dare , and consider how Blasphemous it would be , and what horrible Consequences would follow thereon : And therefore to go round again ( let the Quakers equivocate as much as they will ) they must hold that indeed Christ is not Man , or else fall into the BLASPHEMY or Absurdity abovementioned . In plainness G. is Jesus Christ a Man and not a Person ? Seeing thou dost define a Person to be a MAN , &c. In the Introduction of thy Book intituled the Divinity of Christ . What meanest thou by the word MAN ? A Created Body and Soul , or some uncreated thing ? Now G. use plainness and honesty in this particular if there be any in thee : or whoever he be that undertakes to Answer for thee . Generally all Men in the World , that use the Term Man as properly an English word , understand by it , a PERSON , or a RATIONAL CREATURE distinct from all other Men , one that is in some certain Place , and cannot be in distinct Places at the same time , that hath in respect of his Body , Dimensions of Length Breadth , and Depth , that is visible , one that began to exist at a certain time , one that hath a head and a body so closely united , that when-ever they two are severed , the Man ceases to be ; But the Quakers , they seem to mean quite another thing by the term MAN : sometimes one thing , and sometimes another ; I believe themselves know not well what . By the term MAN , Do you not mean one that is not a Person or Rational Creature , but Flesh , Blood , and Bones of an eternal Nature . ( J. P's . Qu. p. 20. ) an infinite Soul ? One whose Flesh is , and he is in a multitude of Men and Women in distant Countreys at the same instant of time ? Myst . p. 68. Christ ascend p. 18. One that is not in Heaven , as a place to live in remote from Men that live on Earth ? Spir. of Truth p. 12. Christ ascen . p. 21. one that is not VISIBLE ? Christ ascend . p. 37. one that beg●n not to be , for he was eternal ? one that is as far remote from his Body , as Heaven is from Earth , and yet lives ? See Quak. Plainness , p. 23. In fine it seems Jesus Christ is a Man whose Glorious Body in Heaven is not a Humane [ or Man 's ] Body , see the same p. 23. and doth not the Quaker use now admirable Plainness in his Confession of Faith in Scripture-Language ? Doth Europe or America afford such Equivocation ? 8. G.W. p. 19. says further , That Christ's Body of Flesh and Blood , that was born of the VIRGIN-MARY , and that suffered , was Crucifyed , Dye++d , and Rose again the third day , is called the Body of Jesus . But yet G. thou wilt not say , nor own , That that Living Body is Jesus ; or that BODY is so much as a part of Jesus . Consider this , serious Reader , here 's still the Quakers Quibble , and a clear proof of the Quakers Mystery , whereby their poor unwary Hearers are deluded and deceived . So they will say , the seventh day of the week called Saturday , and the eleventh Month called January , and the Scripture called the word of God , and the Writing or Declaration of Matthew called the Gospel of St. Matthew , and abundance the like . Which yet they do not one whit the more Believe it for Truth , for saying it is called so ; But Believe quite the Contrary , as they believe the Scripture is not the Word of God , though it may be called so : so they can say ( by their Equivocation ) The Body that was born of the Virgin Mary , is called in Scripture , the Body of Jesus , and yet will not own that Body , either to be a part of Jesus ; or do believe it to be that Jesus which the Scripture calls it . And here I appeal to all sober and understanding People in England to Judg , if ever they heard such Quibbling before ( as the Quakers here use ) about CHRIST JESUS : and this they are constrained ●o do , To maintain that first Principle they have took up , The Light within ; for if they should own that living Body of Flesh and Blood that was born of the Virgin Mary and that was Crucified and dyed , to be JESUS and the CHRIST , then they foresee , they should confound , that their Beloved Principle . The Light within every Man. For how can that Man or Body of Flesh Bone , and Blood , that was born of the Virgin Mary , be in every Man ; and also upon this Ground , They deny that Person , that Man that was born of the Virgin Mary to be the Christ ; Because they cannot tell how to make tha● very Person and Man to be in every Man , and in all Persons , and so rather than forego their Principle of the Light within , They will adventure to fashion and form to themselves , a new Jesus and a New Christ , and have hid it and kept it as much as they could in a Mystery , and in Dark sayings , as long as they might , till at last being pressed by many Contests and Disputes they have been forced to discover it . And now , Dear Friends and Country-Men , give me leave to tell you that though I do not remember that I ever positively said , That the Quakers were no Christians , yet I have much and often doubted in my self , and do still , whether they can ( according to their Principles ) be true Christians : since they do not own nor believe that Man , nor that living Body that was born of the Virgin Mary to be the Jesus and the Christ , and so do not believe , that the Christ inde●d dyed , and if Christ did not indeed Dy , he did n●t indeed rise again . Nay though they own that the Scriptures call that living Body , Christ and Jesus , yet they give us at the same time to understand , They do not Believe nor own it to be what they themselves say the Scripture calls it , and so set up another Christ , than what the Scripture call's Christ , and declares to us to be the true Christ , and Messiah of the World. And for this Reason , and out of this Godly-Jealousy and Fear , ( and not out of Envy and wicked malic● as they pretend ) it is , that I cannot own them , but have thus opposed them : And let all People consider it , weigh it well , and take heed ; It is not for nothing , or yet a sl●ght matter only , that I set forth their Quibbles ; But for their setting up another Christ , or another kind of Christ , than the Scripture holds forth and calls the Christ , to wit , that Person , Man , or living Body , that was born of the Virgin MARY : and what can be of a higher Nature or more dangerous in the Christian Religion , than for any to set up any other Christ , or any other Person or thing for Christ ? 9. What pla●ner words is it possible to invent , that are intelligible to Mankind , than are used about this matter in Scripture , if Men would not be wilfully Blind as to give you an Instance or two , Acts 2.22 , 23. Ye Men of Israel ' hear these words , Jesus of Nazareth , A Man , approved of God among you , by Miracles and Wonders and Signs , which God did by him in the midst of you , as ye your selves also know , HIM , being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledg of God , ye have taken and by wicked hands have Crucified and Slain , v. 36. Let all the House of Israel know assuredly , That God hath made that same Jesus whom ye have Crucifyed both LORD and Christ observe the Apostle says , that same Jesus , viz. Jesus of Nazareth A Man , God hath made both Lord and Christ , and if that same , then no other : and again , that same Jesus , whom the Men of Israel had taken , and by wicked hands did Crucify and Slay ! That same Jesus , ( and not any thing else ) hath God made both Lord and Christ : Now , it was not the Light within , that the Men of Israel took , and by wicked hands Crucified , Hang'd on a Tree and Slew ; But it was that Man , that Person , that Body that was born of the Virgin Mary , Jesus of Nazareth , that the Jews took , and by wicked hands Crucified and Hang'd on a Tree . So it appears as plain ( as any thing in the World can be by words made Plain ) that that same Man , that Body , or that Person which was born of the Virgin Mary , Jesus of Nazareth is he which God hath made both LORD and CHRIST and not the Light within every Man , nor any other thing . Luke 24.39 . Behold my Hands and my Feet , that it is I my self ; handle me and see , For a Spirit hath not Flesh and Bones , as ye see me have , and when he had thus spoken , he shewed them his hands and his feet . John 20.24 , 25. But Thomas one of the twelve called Dydimus was not with them when Jesus came , The other Disciples therefore said unto him , we have seen the Lord : but he said unto them , Except I shall see in his hands the Print of the Nails , and put my finger into the Print of the Nails , and thrust my hand into his side , I will not believe . v. 26 , 27 , 28. And after eight days , again his Disciples were within , and Thomas with them : Then came Jesus , the door being shut , and stood in the midst , and said , Peace be unto you . Then saith he to Thomas , reach hither thy finger , and behold my hands , and reach hither thy hand , and thrust it into my side , and be not faithless , but believing . And Thomas answered , and said unto him , my Lord , and my God , v. 31. But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God , and that believing ye might have Life through his Name . What Jesus ? even That Jesus , that same Person that was not within but without Thomas , who had the Print of material nails in his hands , that Thomas put his finger in , is the Christ the Son of God. Now , G.W. Answer me in plainness once , if thou wilt be so honest , Was this Jesus ( that the Apostle says here , we are to believe is the Christ the Son of God , ) without Thomas , then when he put his finger into the Print of the Nails ? Or was it only Acted within Thomas his Body ? And hath the Light within ( which thou ownest for thy Jesus ) any Print of Material Nails or hands , properly so called , of flesh and bone , as this Jesus had which is the true CHRIST ? see also Math , 1.1 . with verse 16 ▪ and Heb. 2.14 . 10. G.W. p. 20. takes notice of Jer. Ives great Question , as he calls it , Whether Christ's Humane Nature was a part of Christ ? But he gives no Answer to it , but gives it the go-by , by saying it was not a Question in Scripture - Phrase : But that could be no good Answer from thee , because thou thy self dost , and hast asked many Questions which are not in Scripture-Phrase : and besides , that can be but a silly pretence no better than a Shuffle from thee , because thou dost not own the Scripture , or Scripture-Phrase to be the Rule of thy Faith : Therefore Quibble no more about it , but Answer it . 11. Then p. 21 , 22 , 23. G.W. instead of Answering my Epistle , as he pretends in his Title , put● many new Questions to the Baptists , and prays them to agree upon a consistent Creed amongst themselves , and so slily gives me the go-by , to which I need only say this , That I am of the Opinion , it may be ●● easy for the Baptists to form a Creed wherein they are all agreed , as it is for the Quakers to Form a Creed wherein they & their writings do all agree : Let the Quakers do this themselves which they require of others . Further , I dare adventure to say , that let a Baptist or some other Person , give but three Texts of Scripture to be interpreted , or put but three Questions to six Quakers , all apart , and let them answer apart , and that there shall not three of the six Quakers alike , give the same Answer or Interpretation thereto , either in form or substance , notwithstanding their pretended inspiration and unity . 12. Pag. 23. G.W. says , That though the meer Body of Jesus , was not the ENTIRE Christ , yet the Name Christ is sometimes given to the Body , though not so properly , as to the whole Man Christ . ] Reply . But thou-wilt not own that the meer Body was part of Christ ; so far art thou from owning it to be the entire Christ , and though they acknowledg the Scripture calls the Body Christ , yet they are so obstinate in their own conceits , that they will not believe it is what the Scripture calls it , but thus will be wise above what 's written . Oh deceit ! you think the Body so far from being the entire Christ , that you will not allow it to be any part of him , but such as a Garment is that is none at all . 13. Pag. 23 , 24. G.W. says , That the Distinction of Father and Son , is not only Nominal , but Real , &c. ] How then doth G.F. say , Myst . p. 142. Christ is not distinct from the Father , and that they are all one , p. 99 ? will G.W. and the Quakers Condemn those sayings and disclaim them ? till then they are Quibblers and Equivocators . G.W. p. 24. and also known as Co-workers in the order and degrees of Manifestation and discovery . And yet G.W. himself when he writ against a Baptist , for saying [ now as he was God , he was Co-Creator with the Father ] Then he condemned it as nonsence , saying , What nonsence and UNSCRIPTURAL - LANGUAGE , is this , to tell of God being Co-CREATOR with the Father , or that God had Glory with God ? DOES NOT THIS IMPLY TWO GODS , AND THAT GOD HAD A FATHER ? says G.W. The Light and Life , &c. p. 47. ] Oh excellent George ! what difference between Co-Workers , and Co-Creators ? Do ye not most frequently and importunely charge your Socinians with the horrible Crime of denying that Jesus Christ made or created the World ? And yet is there any Socinian , nay Jew , or Turk , that will deny that one God ( whom we call the Father of Jesus Christ ) made the World ? And thou sayest it's nonsence to tell of God [ or Christ as God ] being Co-Creator with the Father : oh disingenuous Man , that endeavours to get repute to your selves by Reviling others with that very thing whereof your selves are guilty ! And the ground of your Reproach is , that you can equivocate , and they cannot . 14. G.W. p. 24. says , That the Distinction of Father and Son is not only nominal but real . Now then let him if he can answer and confute his sincere-hearted and Zealous Brother W.P. in his Sandy-Foundation , p. 13. Mr. Pen's Argument is this , Since the Father is God , the Son is God , and the Spirit is God ( which their Opinion necessitates them to confess ) THEN UNLESS the Father , Son , and Spirit ARE THREE DISTINCT NOTHINGS , they must be THREE DISTINCT SUBSTANCES , and Consequently THREE DISTINCT GODS . ] Now G. if this Distinction of thine , does not make them DISTINCT SUBSTANCES , thy Brother Penn tells thee they are DISTINCT NOTHINGS . Reconcile this if thou canst , and agree amongst your selves upon a Creed before you go about to Correct others . 15. G.W. p. 24. further says , We own that the Father is in the Son , and the Son is in the Father , as also that the SON IS THE MIGHTY GOD , THE EVERLASTING FATHER , the Prince of Peace . But they do not own any such separation between God and Christ as these words [ the Christ of himself and the God of himself ] do imply Socinian-like ] For this , let his Brother W.P. Socinian-like Answer him , and see what he makes of such Doctrine as G.W. here teaches , and let G. W. refute his Brother Penn's Argument . Sandy Foundation p. 14. he proves the Ridiculousness and irrationality of such an Opinion , by this Argument , viz. If that the ONLY God is the FATHER , and CHRIST be that ONLY God , then is CHRIST the FATHER : So if that ONE GOD be the SON : and the Spirit that one God , then is the Spirit the SON , and so round , nor is it possible to stop says he . And this he brings many Arguments to prove to be both an irrational and a Ridiculous Opinion , and yet now is this the very Opinion of G.W. and other Quakers , viz. That Christ , or the Son , is the Father , as you see G. W's words above do confess . Now let us know which of these two Brethren the Quakers will own to be wrong : For according to these words it is impossible they can be both right : and let us know in Plainness ( if there be any such thing now left among the Quakers ) whether W.P. will own his own Argument , or whether thou G.W. wilt disclaim him or it , or thy own word● ; For they are as contrary as Yea , and Nay . 16. G.W. p. 24. Confesses , that the Title of Person without us , is un-scriptural , and too low to give to the CHRIST [ or the Son ] , and yet his Brother W.P. in his Sandy Foundation p. 15. could give the Title of Person to Christ or the Son : these are his words , Who ( speaking of the SON ) so many hundred years since in PERSON testified the Vertue of it . Now then G. thou must say Christ is a Person within us , or else disclaim and disown W.P. for giving such an unscriptual and too low a Title , to Christ the Son ; if not , dost thou not dissemble ? and did not W.P. speak of a Person without us , as his words [ who so many hundred years since testified ] do evince plainly enough ? 17. The Quakers being charged , that according to their Principle , They cannot and do not Believe that CHRIST INDEED DYED ; G. W. does not deny it , but asks the Baptists , If any more of Christ properly dyed than the Body ? Do you hold that his Soul Spirit or Divinity dyed ? If not , the Charge is foolish and silly . Reply . No G. the Charge is not foolish nor silly ; for as I understand the Baptists hold that the living Body that was born of the Virgin Mary is Christ , and that that dyed , and so believe that Christ indeed dyed : But you Quakers not Believing so , if you Believe that indeed the Christ dyed , you must Believe his Spirit or his Divinity Dyed , for that only you hold is THE CHRIST , and then are you like Reeve and Muggleton who have Blasphemously said that the Godhead d●●d , and thus is thy Charge turn'd upon thy own head ; and thy Quest . proves foolish and silly , For how canst thou ask if any more of Christ than the Body dyed , when thou dost not Believe the Body to be Christ , or any real or essential PART OF CHRIST : Thus whilst you own the Body not to be the Christ , nor a real part of the Christ , you must own that not the Christ nor any real part of Christ dyed ; since you agree , only the Body dyed , and the Body of Jesus was not the Christ , say you , nor any essential real part of Christ , that you will own . 18. As to Jer. Ives Answer to their Distinction , it seemed to me pertinent enough to manifest their fallacy and folly ; and so it doth still for ought G.W. hath told me as yet to the contrary ; and I cannot without offering violence to my understanding be so much taken with G's Reply which is on this wise p. 26. It 's not improbable , that if we had made such a comparison , you Baptists would have cryed out , oh Blasphemy ! This is an improbable or an improper Reply indeed ; It 's more probable W.P. could have told G.W. ( if he did not know it ) that he had learnt in the Schools , that may-bee's , can be answered with may not bee's , and so this might be sufficient for that : But , 1. What if the Baptists would not in such a case , have Cryed out , Oh Blasphemy ! where 's thy Answer then George ? 2. Or , what if the Baptists should , and the Quakers should not , in such a Case , Cry out oh Blasphemy ! as thou dost not affirm it is Blasphemy ; where 's thy Answer then George ? 3. Or , what if there be no such comparison made as thou pretendest is implyed , ( as sure I am there is not ) viz the name of Christ , to be no more excellent than the name of George or William ? Where 's then thy Answer George ? And where 's now thy oh Ignorance in the Abstract ? one may well enough see it in the Concrete , viz. in G.W. when thou settest down thy Reply , thou , immediately says oh Ignorance in the Abstract ! now , if thou meanest ( as it may be so taken ) that the words of thy Reply is such , I shall not trouble my self to say much against it ; But if thou speakest it of me or the Baptists , by thy using that word Abstract , thou shewest thy own Ignorance and want of Learning ( not well understanding the word Abstract , ) which against the next time thou writest for W. P he may inform thee , and teach thee so much Logick ; Ignorance in the Abstract Qualitatem notat nulli subjecto inhaerentem , and so not in me ; Ask thy Brother P. else : Besides , how thou wilt Answer for this word Abstract before your Prophet G.F. I know not , for in the Epistle before one of thy own Books ( Divin . of Christ : ) he condemns that word , as well as others , as coming from our old Logical and Philosophical Books , and yet behold here a Quaker uses it , oh what self-contradicting and dissembling Men are they ! And as for the excellency thou now pretendest to own , in the name of Christ , one may see it to be but Hypocrisy used for evasion-sake only , by what your friend John Crook says of the name Christ and Jesus . Principles of Truth p. 12. [ Without this Vertue , [ viz. The Arm of God ] CHRIST and JESUS are but empty names . We believe and know , by his Grace in our hearts , that as his name JESUS without Vertue and Power , is but an empty word , &c p. 11. But the name which saves , is the power and arm of God , that brings Salvation from Sin , &c. ] Pray how much more excellent does the Quaker here make the name JESVS , than the name GEORGE or WILLIAM ? Are they ? Can they be less excellent than empty words ? Oh the Hypocrisy of these Men ! to say no worse . 19. I said the Quakers Quibbled as much about the word Body as the word Christ , and G.W. instead of denying it , hath confirmed it , p. 29. For though it be Scripture - Language , That the Body is one and hath many Members , and in another place , That the Church of Christ is his Body : yet it will not therefore follow , nor is it according to Scripture - Language , That Christ had NO OTHER Body than his Church , for had he not a Body , that was born of the Virgin MARY ? or was the Church viz. all the Saints in the World born of the Virgin M●ry ? Or had the Body of Christ that was born of the Virgin Mary ( the espoused Wife of Joseph ) no other members ( as Arms , Hands , Legs , &c. ) but only the Saints ? would not this be rare Divinity ! When Thomas put his finger into the Print of the nails in the hands of Jesus , and put his hand into his side , was that then the Church , that Thomas put his hand and finger into ? Oh excellent Quakerism ! Pag. 30. G.W. would slily give the go-by , to my discourse about Mr. Keith's distinction , of making three Christs , by taking no notice upon what I grounded the Objection , viz. Now after this rate , or by the same manner of Reasoning and Quibbling , may not one say that G.K. makes three Christs in Scripture , and that with as much Truth as for any of them to affirm Christ would be a Monster , by saying he hath two Bodies ? But this he slides by , not Answering a word to it : Is this the Qu●kers plainness ? Is it not indeed a Plain shuffle ? But come George : come back again , take notice what it is thou hast to Answer , and then Answer it , Shufflle me no Shufflles , nor Quibble me no more such Quibbles : neither doth G. tell me ( which I also prayed W.P. honestly and plainly to do ) whether G.K. meant , That these three were three Christs , in three distinct Persons ? Or that these three [ and not any thing less than these three ] were one Christ , in one distinct Person ? Or whether these three are no Christ at all , in no distinct Person . Let G.W. Remember his own words in his Introduction to his Divinity of Christ [ We judg that such expressions and words as the Holy Ghost taught the true Apostles and holy men mentioned in Scripture , are most meet to speak of God and Christ , and not the words of man's wisdom , or humane Inventions , and devised Distinctions since the Apostles days ] — nor in Philosophical terms and nice School - Distinctions derived from heathenish Metaphisicks , ] and now tell me G. whether this of thy Brother Keiths , is not a devised Distinction since the Apostles ? And whether G. thou hast not condemned thy Brother K's Distinction ? Where is there such an expression in the Scripture , as Proper , least Proper , &c. are not these Philosophical Terms ? SECT . III. In Reply to his third Section shewing G. W's and the Quakers Ignorance , of the true Spirits Evidence , who deny the Gift of Tongues , Prophecy , Signs , &c. to be such . 1. IN my Epistle to W.P. p. 8. I minded him of the Apostle Paul's words , 2 Cor. 12.12 , 13. Truly the SIGNS of an Apostle were wrought AMONG YOU in all Patience in SIGNS and WONDERS and MIGHTY DEEDS . For what is it wherein ye were INFERIOR to other Churches ? Here was a Church indeed that had the Spirits evidenee , and here was an Apostle indeed that had Divine Revelation , the Gift of Prophecying & Tongues , and Interpretation of Scripture : such an Apostle was one , who indeed was not of Men , neither by Man , but sent by Jesus Christ , and God the Father , who raised him from the dead , Gal. 1.1 . But no such Apostles nor Friends of the Ministry can I find amongst the Quakers , who yet pretend to be Apostles , not of Men , nor by Man , but immediately sent by God , and pretend to have the same Spirit , Calling and Power that the Apostle Paul had . And yet alas do not EVIDENCE it any MORE than OTHERS do , who pretend to it , with as much Confidence as themselves : Nay , and so far are they from that , that I do not see they are able to produce any MORE or give any better Demonstration of it , than those who do not pretend at all immediately to it : and therefore I told W.P. if he had had the GIFT OF TONGUES given him by the SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY upon his turning QUAKER : Or if he could shew but ONE in all his Church , that had such a spiritual Gift or Gifts upon his Conversion to their way , it would put a clear difference betwixt them and the Baptists Churches ; and herein would the Quakers plainly then exceed and excel them : and that one such Testimony ( if true ) in the Quakers Church would more confute the Anabaptists and Convince their Auditors , than a hundred such days brawling disputes , where the Quakers shew'd no more POWER OF THE SPIRIT than their Adversaries ; only fenced with words as well as they could , as their wits would serve them best to Distinguish , Evade , or Answer . And therefore I told W.P. I found his Church as Poor and Low as the Baptists whom yet they condemned . I finding he had the words of Man's Wisdom in making plausible Orations , but askt him , Where was the Demonstration of the Spirit in Power and Sign ? 1 Cor. 2.4 , 5. 2. Now at this I find George is put to a great loss , saying p. 14. What if God will not bestow such Gifts and Signs now ? Being afraid to say , God will , and yet not daring to say , God will not , what George , art thou in a Maze ? Is not this Scripture-Phrase ? Is not this according to Scripture-Language , 1 Cor. 4.19 , 20. I will know , not the Speech of them that are puffed up , but the Power ; For the Kingdom of God is not in Word but in Power ; see also Revel . 2.2 . And is not this according to your own Language , G. Foxes Epistle before thy Book Divin . of Christ , have you the same Power and Spirit , that gave forth the Scriptures ? And such miraculous Gifts are no more than what we find testifyed to have been and remained in the Christian-Church about two hundred or three hundred years after Christ . Irenaeus who lived one hundred and eighty years after Christ , affirmeth that in his time the working of Miracles , the Raising of the Dead , the casting out of Devils , healing of the sick by laying on of hands , and Prophesying , were in being ; and that some that were so raised from the dead , remained among them alive long after , Niceph. Eccles. Hist . Tom. 1. lib. 4. cap. 13. Tertullian and Cyprian ( which last lived till above 250 years after Christ ) do both make mention of the ordinary casting out of Devils , and challenged the Heathen to come and see it . 3. But says he p. 31. this is very strange , But what then George ? It is not more strange than true ? And I say , Is it not very strange , that you will pretend to the Power and the Spirit , and talk of being sent immediately by God , as Paul was , and have a D●vine Commission to Prophesie , and yet cannot bring any Evidence to prove it more than Others ? And instead of Producing one such Apostle , Prophet or Minister in thy Church , the best thing ( which yet alas is bad enough ) thou canst say for thy self , Oh! our opposers do argue as just like the Papists and Jesuites , as if they had served seven years at Rome . Reply . Ah Quibbler ! this will not serve thy turn above all Persons , for who Argues more like a Papist or Jesuite than your selves about proving the Scriptures not to be the Rule of your Faith ? Who uses the Jesuites Arguments to prove good works the meritorious cause of our Justification more than you ? Was it not one of the most eminent and learnedst Men that ever you had amongst you , that positively asserts THE SCRIPTURE TO BE A NOSE OF WAX , yea , and says it is CAPABLE of being NO OTHER ? Sam. Fisher Additional Appendix , p. 21. And is not this the Jesuites Phrase in terminis ? And none but Papists ( except your selves ) use it , Andrad . Orth. Explic. lib. 2. p. 104. What had S. Fisher served seven years at Rome ? Nay , I can shew you and others may see if they mind it , that almost all the Arguments that Mr. Fisher uses to prove the Scripture is not the Rule of Faith , are the very same that the Papists and Jesuites have used these hundred years ; and so G.F. in the Epistle before thy said Book , says , where doth the Scripture say that it self is the Word of God ? Just so do the Papists Argue . What now George ? Is the Argument the better or the worse , because the Jesuites have used it ? Dost thou think in thy Conscience this is a good Answer ? You can sometimes tell us that the Papists may use good Arguments , and so the Jesuites make use of the Scriptures , yet never the worse for that ; nay do but see how thou hast Answered this matter thy self , in thy own Book , Divin . of Christ , p. 38. It is but a mean way of Arguing to accuse or miscal any for owning any Truth , that any sort ( if they do err in some things ) do hold ; for by that way , I may as well be reckoned a Papist , a Jew , or a Turk , &c. ] How now George , and yet dost thou use this mean way of Arguing against me ? For shame do not forget thy self and shuffle backwards and forwards thus , but use some Conscienc● in thy Scribling ! if thou hast any tenderness and plainness in thee , lay thy hand upon thy Mouth . 4. But further I 'le tell thee , that I have oft used this Argument against the Papists , and to chuse , would use it before any other ; and the first and best thing ( as I verily think ) that I could use , if I was to Dispute with a Iesuite , should be to put him to the Proof of his Church , and its Infallibility ; That 's their first Principle and their Foundation , and without doubt any person that will make Tryal , shall find it best there to begin with them ; and it is but equitable , just , and reasonable , that if they say or propose their Church to be infallible and the only true Church , that they should first prove it to be so ; and there would I begin with a Quaker , it being both necessary and reasonable . Wherefore this is so far from being only a Jesuite's Argument , that I am of the Opinion , there can be no better way of Arguing against them : I need no better Authority , than the Example of worthy Mr. Chillingw●rth , and I would advise all people to go that way to work with the Quakers , their main Principles being easily reduced in effect to those of the Church of Rome , and those Arguments that prove effectual against one , may as effectually serve against the other . Take but THEIR LIGHT WITHIN for the POPE , and their INFALLIBILITY ( which now of late is run out of particular persons into that ) OF THE BODY , for the CHURCH , and the business is done . For as the Papists calls it the CHURCH , so the Quakers now call their CHURCH the BODY , the BODY of Friends . So here 's only the difference of words , and who-ever discreetly considers this , and makes use of it , will doubtless find the ease and Benefit of it , in Disputing with a Papist or a Quaker : I have already shew'd it to be both necessary and equitable . Now Reader , canst thou think this was a good or sufficient Answer from G.W. alas it is a sign he was hard put to it , that he could find no better Evasion ! 5. Then he says p. 31 , and 32. the Baptists produce no such signs , and I so told him before ; that I found them both a like poor and low in this respect , ( so far as I knew with certainty , ) and hereby then he grants , that he stands upon no better ground than the Baptist-Churches , why then will be condemn them , since they have , if not better , yet as good , demonstrations as the Quakers for ought yet appears ? But besides , the Baptists here have this to say for themselves , they do not pretend to immediate Divine Revelations , and such inspirations , nor to a Gift of Infallibility , nor yet to any such immediate Commission from Heaven , as the Quakers do , and therefore no wonder if they hold , there 's no need of Miracles or Signs , to Evidence or prove that which they do not pretend to : Wherefore George is at a loss and beside the b●siness here by thinking to Answer me , by Quotations out of the Baptists Books : for what 's all this to the Quakers , who do pretend to immediate Divine Revelations , and Inspirations as the Apostles had , to a gift of infallibility , and to an immediate Commission from Heaven , to go forth as Prophets , Apostles , &c , What , because the Baptists that pretend not to this , need bring no Miracles to prove that which they lay no Claim to , must therefore the Quakers who do lay Claim to all this , be believed that ●hey have it without giving us any visible Evidence , Sign , or Demonstration that they so have it indeed ? only their bare word , a very good one ! as If I should lay Claim to an Estate , and yet need bring no more Evidence to prove my Title , than all other Persons that lay no Claim , nor pretend to it at all . But yet this is not all ; For I find there are three sorts of Persons now in the World , that do in a more eminent manner pretend a Title , and lay all Claim to infallibility , a Divine Commission , and a power or Gift of the Right Interpretation of Scripture ; viz. The Papists ( or the Church of Rome ) The Quakers ( or their Friends of the Ministry , or Body ) The Muggletonians , ( or their Prophet ) Here the Quakers have two grand Competitors which lay Claim to what they pretend to , How will they do here , TO EVINCE THAT THEY HAVE IT MORE THAN THE OTHER , the least of which viz. Muggleton seems to stand upon even ground with the Quakers ; but the Papists seem to have a grand advantage above them , for they produce a claim of above a thousand years standing , whereas the Quaker's is but an Up-start : Besides , they pretend to be in possession of it , and how the Quakers will dispossess them I cannot tell , since they have now left going to Rome , and I hear no more of Divine Comm●ssions they receive to convert the Pope of late years . Now George , Thou hadst dealt honestly and plainly , if thou hadst told me this , and this is it which is both Rational and necessary if thou expectest or claimest credence before them ; and this I expect of thee . For it is not enough to say , Thou art in the Truth , and they are in Error and Blasphemy ; for they say that of thee , and this I told W.P. that he knew in his Conscience was but a shameful begging of the Question : For why shouldst thou be believed on THY BARE SAY-SO , more than they ? And this is so honest G. that it is according to thy own arguing with me : p. 41. sayest thou , as if they were all bound to believe his Accusations on his bare word ; so say I , are we all ( or any ) bound to believe thy Pretensions , and thy Commission from Heaven upon thy bare word , or if not upon thy bare word , upon what then ? Answer this George plainly . 6. Pag. 32. G. would mince the matter if he could , saying , Now as we have not this way imposed our Faith upon our Opposers , so we shall not thus impose upon this Man or the Baptists . But desire he and they may seek and try further . Reply . Thanks to thee for nothing George ; Thou and thy Friends have been UNCHRISTIANING of of us these twenty years , and UNCHURCHING all the Churches in England and Europe , calling the Priests and Professors of all sorts , all the abominable names that you could invent ; and now truly when you are questioned your selves , and find that notwithstanding all your boasting pretences and Braggadocio's , you can produce NO MORE than others , whom you have condemned and unchristianed , oh truely then thou sayest , we shall not thus impose our Faith upon the Baptists , or this Man : Pray tell us which way thou wilt impose it ; or what way dost thou propose for a Discrimination , and a Rule to try you by , since you have disowned the SCRIPTURES fit for that ? see S. Fisher , Addit . Append. p. 21. which Transcriptions and Translations WERE THEY NEVER SO CERTAIN and intire by Answering to the first Original Copies , yet are not CAPABLE ( to be to all Men ) any other than a Lesbian Rule , or Nose of Wax , &c. If you say the SPIRIT shall be the Rule to try you , The Papists and Muggleton say you have it not , but each of them are as certain as you they have it , therefore it will be absolutely requisite for you to Evince and give some such Demonstration that you have the Spirit , which neither they nor others can give , before you can be tryed by that ; because that is the question , whether you have the SPIRIT and the POWER OF GOD or no , MORE than others . 7. And then let me tell George : That if he could Demonstrate it this way , it would not be , nay it could not be any Imposing upon me ; if G.W. did visibly Evidence and demonstrate to me , by Power and mighty Deeds , that he had indeed that Power and Spirit that he says he hath : Therefore thou talkest deceitfully as if that would be an Imposing ; But now yours is imposing , when you condemn Men for not-believing that you have immediate Revelations , or in that you assert and would have us believe , you are MORE inspired than other Men , or other Societies and Bodies of Christians . And you tell us you have the Spirit and are in the Truth MORE than others whom you Condemn as false , and yet you produce NOTHING except YOUR BARE SAY-SO , MORE than others , who SAY SO of themselves as you do of your selves . Now here 's the IMPOSING ; you pretend you are Infallible , and yet produce no more or other effects of your Infallibility , than other Men can or do : Nay on the contrary the same effects of Fallibility are evident among you , as among others ; and yet if any deny it in you , you Censure and Curse them for not believing you , and this is your way of Imposing . And you Quakers say you are immediately sent of God , and commissioned from God to deliver such or such a Message or Curse , and that this , and that is given forth by the Holy Ghost in you , or from the Spirit : and yet you shew no more certainty to prove to us , and for us infallibly to build our Faith on , that you are so sent , and SO Commissioned from God , than Muggleton does or other Churches , which yet your selves say , ARE NOT SENT OF GOD nor Commissioned by him . Now here 's imposing upon Mens beliefs , and this I say you are guilty of , yea , and most eminently guilty of , next to Muggleton or the Pope , of any Person or People I know ; and this is the thing George , thou shouldst have Answered , if thou hadst Answered me to the purpose and main bent of my Epistle to W.P. ; But this thou pittifully evadest and sl●ly wouldst slide from . But now , since you pretend to such high things , if you had the visible Spiritual Gifts that were amongst the true Primitive Churches and Apostles to evidence and demonstrate the Truth of what now you ONLY SAY and pretend , I should never ( nor I suppose any Man in his wits ) call or esteem it any imposing on my Faith : But the other is so indeed as I have shew'd you , and therefore G. I would take thee by the hand , and lead thee back again , praying thee not to shuff●e and Cut also , but Answer this , and not that which I never desired of thee , nor W.P. That 's the very thing I found fault with you before , viz. That you would Answer to that which was not askt you , instead of returning Answer to that which was ; and yet still thus thou servest me , but it will not do . For my design is , that I may know you better , what Real Power , Evidence and Authority you have BEYOND others , that so I may have a good Foundation for my Faith , and give Credit to it and you : Or that for want of it , you may be brought to a better fight of your selves , and see your nakedness and Poverty , ( though you say ( as the Church of Laodic●a ) that you are rich ) and so may learn to be humble , and not Censure others , except you can better evidence your own . 9. And yet why wilt thou say , you have not imposed thus your Faith on others ? Was not , and hath not your Language been such as this ? viz. It 's true , that Timothy , Titus , and others , WHO HAD GIFTS IN THEM for the Ministry , were approved by Paul and others of the Primitive Elders for the work , but this is no Proof that these opposers , Ministers , are either so gifted or approved , G.W. Enthusiasm above Atheism , p. 5. ] And so say I , neither is it any Proof that the QUAKERS MINISTERS are SO GIFTED or APPROVED ; and the Words before-cited of G.F. before thy own Book : Have you the SAME POWER and SPIRIT that gav● forth the Scriptures ? G.W. Wilt thou believe thy own words ? Then see thy Answer to Mr. Richard Baxters two sheets for the Ministry , p. 16. We never understood that they that set up these Priest● , were called as Peter , or Paul , or the Elders , who had Power to lay on the hands , that the HOLY GHOST FELL ON THE PARTY ON WHOM THEY LAID ON THE●R HANDS ] and shew me any ONE of thy MINISTERS CALLED SO George . G. F. To all People in all C●ristendom says thus , p. 2. All Sects — have the words of the Apostles , but out of the Power and Life . A Paper sent forth into the World from the Quakers , p. 5. [ We are against — the Pastors that NOW STEAL the words of the Prophets , of Christ and his Apostles ] W.P. Reason against Railing , p. 115. Many may run into the Practice of several outward things , mentioned in the Scriptures to have been the practice of Saints in former Ages , and yet not be led into the Truth , for all that is but will-worship , Imitation , and unwarrantable . ] And all this I may say against you , which you have said against others , and if they were good then , why not still ? For you have but the Names and Images of things , you have got the words used in Scripture , [ the Power ] and the [ Spirit ] [ the Gifts of the Spirit , ] the Demonstration of the Spirit and Power ] But alas where is the thing it self , viz. the visible Power and Gifts of the Spirit , the Demonstration of the Spirit that the true Apostles had , and the Scripture speaks of ? To this George can poorly say , what if God will not bestow such Gifts now ? why then , George , I say thou hast them not , only hast stolen the words out of the Scriptures , thou hast got the Name , the Image and words , as thou sayest the Baptists and others have done : but alas , art as barren of the Gifts themselves as they are , only art got into a Form , but denyest the True power of God and Demonstration of the Spirit in Signs and mighty Deeds . 10. Pa. 33. G.W. hath this further to say , That he doubts not but where the Spirit of God lives and Rules , it will manifest it self by its Fruits , for it is self-evidencing , and that they have a record in Heaven , and also in many Consciences of the blessed Power of God with them and in them . ] Reply . And cannot the Baptists say all this , nay , and do not they many times ? They can say th●y have a Record in Heaven , and in many Consciences also , who believe them ; and pray tell me G. how thou wilt get up to Heaven to search the Record there and disprove them ? Did one ever hear such silly stuff as this man writes ? did he indeed think to shufflle it off with such ridiculous words as these . I could tell the Quakers that some of them have a Record somewhere else , be-besides the Court of Heaven , viz. in the Court of Chancery for Swearing or Oaths . I told W.P. That if his Church be the True , and the Baptists Church false , ( rightly to convince others thereof upon good and infallible grounds ) he must pretend to , and produce some such discriminating Evidence or Sign for Proof thereof , which the Baptists nor no false Church could in like manner produce , as he doth . I pray'd W.P. to shew wherein the POWER of GOD or the SPIRIT DEMONSTRATED it self MORE in the Quakers than the Baptists , or a false Church ? And that he must do , & say something for his Church ( if he would say any thing to purpose ) which they could not do and say for theirs as an Evidence or Demonstration thereof ; and that this was NO MORE than what the true Primitive Church had , and could , and did on all necessary occasions visibly produce and Demonstrate . Now what does the Quibbler Answer to all this , he says nothing but what the Baptists can or do say , that they have a Record in Heaven , and in many Consciences also , and that they doubt not but where the Spirit of God Lives and Rules it will manifest it self , for it is self-Evidencing : Then by that Rule the Quakers should not have the Spirit of God , at best , no more than others have ; because it does not manifest it self in them more than in others . 11. P. 33. says G.W. This seems to be a hard task , ] and I believe so indeed , and too hard for all the Quakers , though I was so reasonable as to demand but one such Testimony or Gift in all their Churches , and they never read of any Christian-Church in Holy Scripture , that had not some and many such Gifts . Yet G. undertakes to say , that it is no difficult matter for W.P. and many more to produce or demonstrate some such effects of that living Testimony , presence and power of God among us , as no false Church CAN PRODUCE : although herein neither W.P. nor any of us will ADMIT OF PREJUDICED and ENVIOUS SPIRITS to be our JUDGES or WITNESSES in th●se matters . ] Reply . Bravely said George , if it were as well done ; but for all thy boasting , that not only W.P. but many more among you could ; yet the poor Man , does not dare produce , or so much as name one of them : is not this excellent ? What must all Men believe it , because thou saiest it ? Is IPSE DIXIT come to Town , and the Quakers bare word all the Evidence they have or can produce ? Now it would have been a great piece of this Quakers-plainness , if he had produced one or two of those effects , only , which he boasts he 〈◊〉 , ( and no Church which he Condemns for false ) can produce . I charge him to do it , if he will not prove himself a MEER PRETENDER and VAIN-BOASTER speaking high swelling words , like them in Jude . But this Man is very timerous I I perceive he would do it with Caution enough , though so silly , that he makes himself Ridiculous by it . 1. Where did the Apostles or the Churches ever make such a Proviso in their producing the Testimony and Power of God ? Did they not do it before all , and in the presence of Envious and malicious Spirits as well as others , and left them to judg as it had operation upon them ? And 2. May not the Baptists say so , and make this Proviso as well as you , that they will not admit of prejudiced and envious Spirits to be their Judges or Witnesses in these matters ? and then no doubt , they will be able to produce as many such effects as the Quakers : Oh silly and absurd ! But 3. well G. produce those effects , and that Power thou talkest of in W.P. however , and I am contented with thee for this time , that you shall not admit of Envious , or Prejudiced Spirits to Judg of it ; but produce it , that others may behold it , though not Judg of it : or wilt thou say , that there 's not one person in all England ( except Quakers ) but what are Envious and Prejudiced Spirits ? Poor Evasion ! 12. As for them which thou sayst in whose Consciences there is a Record , many of which were gathered out from Baptists and other Churches . They say such are but Apostates from their Church , and some such you have had in your Church ( which you call Apostates ) when they leave you , and go to other Churches , so that all this is nothing for proof of the thing ; nay several of your grand Prophets ( so once esteemed among some of you for true Prophets of the Lord ) did and have left you , Witness CHARLES BAYLY , JOHN PARROT , &c. and the Baptists have gathered amongst them several out of other Churches as well as you : and what then ? The Baptists may tell you , that if the Quakers see no such thing amongst them , as the Blessed Operation and effect of the Power and Ministry of Christ Jesus , That is because the Quakers have not honestly made Tryal , b●t stood in Prejudice and gainsaying , as many did against Christ , the Apostles and Primitive Church of old , and what can the Quakers say to it , ONLY DENY IT and so may the Baptists . Besides , the Baptist . Churches have this to say for themselves , which you have not , ( being you have denied and disowned it ) viz. They own the Holy Scriptures for the Rule of their Faith and Practice ; and pretend to no such extraordinary immediate Inspirations and Revelations as you do . 13. But above all , you ought not , you cannot , in good Conscience , complain against others for Questioning whether you are Christians , you having first not only Questioned others , but pronounced them all , both Ministers and People , and Professors also , unchristian . See G.F. Professors Catechism , his very first words , are , come you UNCHRISTIANS , let us talk with you , &c. Therefore look at home and rebuke your selves first for this . 14. And whereas G.W. p. 34. says , That a foolish and Adulterous Generation seek a Sign : 'T is true , our Saviour did so upbraid the Jews and might very well , they having had Sign upon Sign , & Miracle upon Miracle wrought by our SAVIOUR amongst them , and such mighty Deeds almost innumerable , wrought before them ; and yet to cry out for more , when they saw so many from him , was foolish : but what is this to the Quakers , who have not wrought one true Miracle , nor produced so much as ONE such Sign ( notwithstanding all their Pretences ) among us , that ever I heard of ? must we therefore be a foolish Generation that ask a Sign of them to prove such their pretences ? No surely , it follows not , I am certain , from that Text : and yet notwithstanding that the Jews were such an Adulterous Generation , and had had so many Miracles wrought among them : yet Jesus Christ said , they should have one Sign more , and that was doubtless the greatest Miracle and Sign of all : By this Text then , if the Quakers will stick close to it , they may lawfully give this Adulterous Generation one Sign , and that 's all I ask of them . 15. And thus G.W. says amiss , when he talks as if I did not acknowledg the sufficiency of the Spirits Evidence and Teaching : for I do fully acknowledg it ▪ where it APPEARS indeed to be ( and do more fully own it than yet the Quakers seem to do ( who are loath to own Real Miracles and the Gift of Tongues to be a certain EVIDENCE of the SPIRIT ) But must I therefore own that to be the Spirits Evidence which every one calls so ? or will G.W. himself acknowledg it so ? I dare say not , why ; then it remains that G.W. & others must Evidence to us , That that is indeed the Spirits-Evidence , which they call so , Before that either he or they can justly call us UNBELIEVERS , or accuse us for not owning the sufficiency of the Spirits-Evidence ; and this G.W. and all the Quakers in England must confess , or else I may as justly accuse them , for not acknowledging the sufficiency of the Spirits Evidence and Teaching in the Church of Rome , or in Muggleton , and let them clear themselves of it if they can . 16. Now since the Quakers will not produce any of their Miracles , I would not have them angry with me , if I should produce one or two ; that are the likeliest that I know of , if that which they say be true . I never found any upon Record in their own Writings , except this may be Recorded for one : viz. in G. F's Professors Catechism , p. 13. And is not the POPE the MOTHER of all your observing of Days , Saints days as you call them ? According to this it seems G.F. their Grand Prophet , Converted a MAN into a WOMAN , and that a POPE too ! which if true , must needs be a Miracle ; and that it was not the Printers fault , his next words assured me , [ And is not SHE your Example , and not the Scripture ? ] And again in another place in the same Page [ is not the POPE the MOTHER ? ] Then I considered what Pope this was , whether it might not be Pope-JOAN , that did first Institute Saints Days , and so G.F. the Prophet by a strange impulse speak more Truth than he thought of : But my Authors assure me , 't was not Pope-JOAN ; but that it was a MAN - Pope , and the name Pope signifieth as much as FATHER ; and yet for all this , G.F. hath turned the HE , into a SHE , and Converted the MAN into a WOMAN ; & yet this is the Man that hath helpt to set out a whole Book in Folio , shewing the sinfulness and impurity of saying you and not thou , to one in the singular . What a Prophet ? What a Scholar is this ? that cannot tell the MASCULINE Gender from the FEMININE ? was he ( can any one think ) skill'd in so many Languages as he hath set his Name to , that does not write true English ? 17. The other thing which I shall leave to your own Judgments , whether it be a Miracle or not , is what is Recorded of them in the Court of Chancery , THAT THE QUAKERS CAN TAKE AN OATH , AND YET NOT SWEAR AT ALL ; If this be so , some think it must be miraculous : That they cannot swear , that they swear not at all , is their Principle ; That several of them have taken Oaths and have been sworn in Chancery , is upon Record in that Court , as Jer. Ives hath satisfied the World by Certificates , in his Questions for the Quakers ; and yet the Quakers still say , they did not Swear nor take an Oath , which if true , must be won●erful at least . But these are not such Miracles and Evidence as lie necessarily incumbent on the Quakers , to produce for the better Evidence and Proof of what they say and pretend to , and therefore I shall say no more of it here , but refer them to produce such Evidence as will indeed prove them to be sent of God to go forth as Apostles , Prophets , &c. more than all others , and be satisfactory in Answer to the foregoing Particulars . SECT . IV. In Reply to his fourth Section , shewing the Comparison betwixt the QUAKERS and MUGGLETON to be both Just , Rational , Honest and Necessary . G.W. P. 35. TO compare Muggleton and them ( he says ) is both Idle , Quibbling and Envious Canting : What if W.P. does not pretend to more than Muggleton does , will it therefore follow , the Quakers are Impostors , or like him , who holds many Blasphemies ? The Baptists may be ashamed of such gross and abusive Insinuations as these . ] Reply . Stay George , be not so hot , run not so fast , give me leave to call thee back again , and tell thee , that if the Comparison in my Epistle was any abuse , that it was not the Baptists that did it , but I ; and therefore if so , I am to bear the blame of it : But neither they nor I need to be ashamed of doing it , that I see as I shall now shew you ; and if you had exercised a good Conscience you might have seen it your self and spared me the Labour . 1. Then I say , That if W.P. does not pretend to more than Muggleton , yet if he or the Quakers pretend to have received immediately a Commission from Heaven , and Divine Revelations , and inspired by the Spirit of God to go forth as Apostles , Prophets , &c. as Muggleton does , and yet he be an Impostor as he is , then if the Quakers can produce no more for theirs than Muggleton does for his , it will follow , that the Quakers are also Impostors : And do thou Answer it if thou canst , and so thou hast thy idle Quibbling and envious Canting return'd on thy self . 2. And for thy accusing Muggleton with Blasphemies , it is as certain that he accuses you with Blasphemies , and many others have condemned you also as holding apparent Blasphemies : then by this thou art as well condemned as Muggleton is condemned by thee , so that this will be no Proof ; and besides ; How wilt thou evidence to others , That all what thou sayest and callest Blasphemy , is such indeed ? or doest thou think thy bare word is sufficient for all others to give Credence to and build their Faith on ? so that here the doubt and Question will remain still . 3. I am verily perswaded in my heart , that many Quakers have censured several Doctrines for Blasphemy , ( which yet are not truly so ) as if they had the Romish Authority , and every one of them a Pope within him . Take an Instance out of G.W. himself , Ishmael , p. 9. For a Man's saying , That it is all one to say the Scripture saith , and God saith : ] G. calls him , thou Blasphemous Beast , dost thou make no difference between the Scripture and God ? — here let all that reads this , see thy Blasphemy : Now George , let me ask thee , if a Man should affirm , it is all one to say thy Book Ishmael saith , and the Spirit of God saith , whether this would be Blasphemy ? ( since , in thy Title Page thou asserts , it was given forth from the Spirit of the Lord in us , ) and was not that given forth by Scripture , Writing , or Speech ? If thou sayest no , then thou hast condemned the Man wrongfully , unless thou wilt say that that Book of yours was given forth more , by the Spirit of the Lord , than the Holy Scriptures are : If thou sayest yes , it is Blasphemy , then thou provest thy self a Blasphemer by Intitling that , as given forth by the Spirit of the Lord in you , which he did not say , and give forth . 4. Wouldst thou not think it very hard and unjust , if one should accuse the Quakers of Blasphemy , for saying , That the Church of Christ is his Body , and that there is but one Spirit and one Body , which is the Church , and so deny that Christ hath any other Body , than that whereof the Saints are Members and united to him , as thou talkest to this purpose ? p. 29. Now some look upon this as Blasphemous , wouldst thou not say it is very hard and uncharitable ? and why , because this is according to Scripture-Language sayest thou : And yet thou hast accused Muggleton , p. 37. as a Blasphemer and Impostor for holding this Blasphemous Doctrine ; That the Soul of Man dies or is Mortal . Now may not Muggleton tell thee , ●●at the Scripture saith in express words , The Soul that sinneth it shall die , Ezek. 18.20 . God shall deliver my Soul from the Power of the Grave , Psal . 49.15 . Thou hast delivered my Soul from Death , Psal . 56.13 . Thou hast delivered my Soul from the lowest Grave , Psal . 86.13 . Keep back his Soul from the Pit : his Soul draweth nigh to the Grave , Job . 33.18 , 22 , 28 , 30. Then saith he unto them , My Soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto Death , Matth. 26.38 . spake of the Resurrection of CHRIST , that his Soul was not left in Hell [ or the Grave , ] Acts 2.31 . Is not this Scripture ? Is not this according to Scripture-Language ? Thus then thou condemnest something as Blasphemy , which is according to Scripture-Language , and so it seems it is all one to thee , be it according to Scripture-Language or not ; thou joynest them all together as alike false and Blasphemous . Besides there is no Protestant Church in Europe that I know of , but what can approve the third Doctrine in thy 37. pag. ( which thou callest Blasphemous ) for True , in the indefinite Terms thou hast expressed it , viz. That the Soul of Man is Mortal , i. e. Subject to the second Death , if not Redeemed . And because G.W. hath a Multiplying-Glass when he writes against his opposers , he hath made here ( to lengthen them out ) eight several Doctrines , which indeed can be reckoned but one or two in effect or much the same : and as for those other Blasphemous Doctrines of Muggleton respecting the Godhead Life , and that the Godhead died ; thou G. according to thy Principles must hold so too , or else thou must run into another Blasphemy ; by holding that THE CHRIST INDEED did NOT DIE , only put off HIS GARMENT with which thou sayest he was Cloathed , but was not THE CHRIST nor no Real part of HIM . And therefore upon this account your Predecessors , ( who held much the same Doctrine with you concerning the TRINITY of PERSONS , ) found a necessity on them to hold that the FATHER Died , as Muggleton does , and therefore were called PATROPASSIANS ; for without that they found they could not Really believe , that THE CHRIST HIMSELF DIED , and this Dilemma ( if not Blasphemy ) the Quakers are got into ; and if the Quakers did not come very near this Blasphemous Doctrine of Muggleton , What is the meaning of Isaac Pennington's words , Quest . p. 20. But he [ CHRIST ] is of an Eternal Nature , and his Flesh and Blood and Bones are of his Nature , [ that is , then , his Flesh , Blood and Bones are Eternal ; and so must be GOD , for nothing is of an Eternal Nature , but GOD ] and now let the Reader Judg how far this falls short of Muggleton's Blasphemy ; and let them clear themselves of it if they can , so that it appears , this is only a Pitiful begging the Question still , betwixt the Impostor Muggleton and you , which cannot be granted you by Muggleton , nor yet by others , without your producing better evidence : for you see he can speak according to Scripture-Language as well as you , when he hath a mind to it . 5. Whereas thou sayest the comparison is unjust and wicked , Thou dost not so much as Instance any one particular of the ten , that is unjust or false : But thou wilfully mistakes me , when thou insinuates , as if I did basely design by the Comparison to make others believe , that the Quakers were Muggletonians or the Muggletonians Quakers : No , that was never my intent , but thy own perversion , on purpose to Evade and shuffle it off where thou foundst it lay too heavi● upon thy Shoulders ; neither canst thou find any such word in all my Epistle , but well to the contrary , as the tenth particular witnesseth , That the Quakers Condemn Muggleton , and Muggleton damn's the Quakers ; therefore any Man might see ( except G. who is wilfully blind ) that I never thought them all one or alike in all things , and G. might have spared all his needless labour to set down wherein the Quakers differ from Muggleton in other Doctrines , but that the poor Man could easier do that , than Answer what I demanded of W.P. But this is the old Shift that I have formerly told them of , they used in the Dispute , Answer that which was never askt them , to give the go-by and evade Answering what is askt , and thus he serves me here . The thing that I demanded of W.P. was this ; in my Epist . p. 32 , 33. Why shouldst thou or thy Friends be believed MORE than Muggleton or an Impostor ? Since Muggleton says he hath received a Commission from Heaven , that he had it by Divine Revelation to go forth as a Prophet , &c. That he is inspired by the Spirit of God , and is infallible , &c. and so say the Quakers that they have . And again , in my p. 35. Is it not highly necessary one should know which of these are the Impostors ? Or whether ( since they both are such confident Pretenders ) they may not both be Impostors ? What canst or dost thou produce or pretend to more than Muggleton does ? Surely it will be a strange piece of Confidence for you to claim Credence from People , if you cannot produce something considerable beyond such ( as your selves own to be ) a GRAND IMPOSTOR and a DECEIVER . But very deceitfully G. gives the go-by to all this , which was the only thing in Question , and yet calls his Treatise an Answer to my Epistle : Is it possible , that the Quakers that pr●tend so much , should be Men of no better Conscience ? How can any look upon such to be tender , and Men fearing God , and hating deceit and falshood ? Is this think you for the Credit or Commendation of your way ? will such unfair dealing , shifting and shuffling of Answers , convince the Baptists or me , or any other sober and discreet Men that you are immediately sent and Commissioned for to go forth as Apostles and Prophets from the most Holy God ? No surely . Dost thou call this the Quakers-plainness , detecting Fallacy ? It is the Quakers own Fallacy it then detects . Let thy own Conscience ( if thou hast any that is not hardned ) Judg , and let all intelligent Readers Judg. This is then the thing that I did , and do still demand of thee , Why shouldst thou or thy Friends be believed more than Muggleton or an Impostor , that thou speakest immediately from the spirit of God , and that thou hast a Commission from Heaven , and he not ? What canst or dost thou produce , say or pretend to more than Muggleton does , whom yet your selves say is AN Impostor and a Deceiver . 6. Instead of that G.W. p. 36. weakly tells me , that some of the Baptists have denied the Father and Son to be two distinct Persons , and then cites Hicks Dialogue , p. 9. What 's this in Answer to my Epistle ? And yet for ought I understand , he hath falsly accused Mr. Hicks therein ; for on the Contrary , he doth expresly own the Father and Son to be two distinct Persons ; and then G. would basely come off , by saying , wherein they Imply the Father and Son to be one Person without us ; whereas I do not find one such word in all T. H.'s Dialogues , and I dare say the thought never entred into his heart : but what falshood will not this Man use ? Not regarding either his own Honour or Reputation , nor that of his Religion ( which yet he pretends to ) whilst he defends it by such base means : To accuse a Man positively , and then when he comes to prove it , he doth but barely say it is implied , when indeed it is not implied ; and I know not why my Testimony should not be as good as G. W's . 7. G.W. p. 36. What if Quakers pretend to these viz. that they have received a Commission from Heaven , that they had it by Divine Revelation , that they are inspired by the Spirit of God , that they are infallible ? Says he , the Apostles and true Church did not only pretend to , but experience the same , does it therefore follow that they must be compared with the Muggletonians and be deemed Impostors ? Reply . That ever any Man in his wits should make himself so Ridiculous in Print , as G.W. here does ! For , 1. Because the Apostles and true Church did pretend to these things , and did EXPERIENCE the SAME , and could visibly demonstrate them , and so were no Impostors nor like Muggleton : Must th●refore the Quakers and Muggleton who pretend to these things , but do not experience the same , nor can visibly demonstrate them as the true Apostles did , be no Impostors ? on the contrary it directly follows , that the Quakers and Muggleton pretending to these things , and not experiencing the same , nor visibly Demonstrating them as the true Apostles did , are Impostors ; and get off of it , if you can . 2. Cannot Muggleton also say , what if he as led by the Spirit of Truth pretend to these things , the Apostles and true Church did not only pretend to , but experienced the same , does it therefore follow that he must be compared with , and deemed an Impostor ? What Answer wouldst thou make to Muggleton ? Take the same to thy self and thou wilt be Answered . 8. And thus hast thou made thy self Ridiculous , and thy deceit and Hypocrisie apparent to others ; and therefore George since thou hast undertaken for thy Brother Penn to Answer my Epistle , I will not let thee go free so , no no , I cannot be satisfied with thy shuffles and such poor Shifts . I intend now not to leave thee , till thou hast indeed Answered to the MATTER in Dispute , or made thy own Folly and vain-boasting , manifest to all Men of sound understanding ; still asserting , That it is a strange piece of Confidence for you to censure and condemn others , or to claim Credence from People , if you cannot produce something considerable BEYOND such ( as your selves own to be ) a GRAND IMPOSTOR and a DECEIVER . And I do still demand of you , What can or do you produce , say and pretend to , more than Muggleton does ? Or why shouldst thou in particular , G.W. be believed MORE than Muggleton or an Impostor , in thy Pretences of having Received an Immediate Commission and Ministry from Heaven , Infallibility and immediate Inspirations from the Spirit of God , to go forth as an Apostle , or a Prophet ? And this lies at thy door still , notwithstanding all thy pittiful Evasions and deceitful equivocations And this is sufficient for thy fourth Section . SECT . V. In Reply to his fifth Section , about SABELLIUS and the Agreement of the Quakers Doctrine with his touching the three Persons . G.W. P. 41. Tells me , that because I did not lay down particularly what those old exploded Fancies of Sabellius were , I am smiting at them in the dark . Reply . Is not this indeed Ingenious ? I writ my Epistle to W.P. who is generally known to be a Scholar , and a Man of Learning , and could not well be thought so Ignorant , or of so little Reading , as not to know who Sabellius was , and what his Opinions which were exploded ; therefore it was altogether needless for me to lay down what I concluded he knew as well as my self . But now a Man who is unlearned , or no good Scholar , comes in his Ignorance , and undertakes to Scribble me an Answer , and for want of so much Light and Learning in himself accuses me of smiting at them in the Dark . 2. To Inform this Man and enlighten his dark mind in this particular : I understand that Sabellius was one who denied there was a Trinity of Persons he denied there were three persons , saying all three were one , Epip . haer●s . 62. Aug. lib. haer . [ as the Quakers now do ] And so confound the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , and impiously imagined three Names in one thing and in one Person , therefore not without Cause we forbid them the Church , &c. Soc. Schol. lib. 2. These and the like were the Exploded Fancies that were long since revealed by SABELLIUS without , rather than by the Light within ; and such-like are now the Quakers Fancies which they pretend are revealed to them by the Light within , notwithstanding all their plausible Quibbles and equivocating pretences sometimes to the contrary , as is manifested in this foregoing Discourse . 3. G.W. p. 42 , 43. instead of answering my Epistle tells me , that some of the Baptists have denied the Divinity of Christ . Reply . Quid hoc ad rem ? I never requested that of him or W.P. I matter no more what some of the Baptists hold , than what some of the Quakers do hold : But it seems G. found it much easier for him to set down what Doctrines some of the Baptists have held , than to prove and make good such Doctrines as himself holds . If he hath any thing to say to the Baptists , it is likely enough they may be able to Answer for themselves , as well as he can for himself if not better , because they own the Holy Scriptures to be their Rule , and not their own Spirit or Fancy within . But if not , what 's all this to me ? I am no Baptists , and so I told W.P. before ; Therefore this is no better than a Quibbling Evasion in lieu of an Answer . 4. G. W , p. 44. seemeth to like the Close of my Epistle better than the rest . It 's well if any thing ( that 's not a Quakers ) can please him . I assure him I thought on it at the beginning of that and this also & do wish that he h●d been so ingenious as to have considered of it in his Answer , and that he would honestly confess with me humanum est Errare rather than only to commend it as some kind of Ingenuity in another ; and I believe the same humility and submissiveness may become him and all the Quakers as well , and better than high and empty pretences without greater proof . I have all along purposely avoided forming the Arguments into Syllogisms , and used this plain way of discourse , that so it might the better suit with the Capacities of the Vulgar and be the more beneficial to the understandings of such well-meaning persons , who yet notwithstanding , may not be well acquainted with a Syllogistical method , neither understand rightly what Mood and figure are no more than Hebrew or Arabick , and therefore can be no competent Judges thereof , when they read it in that Form. Now no Quaker ought to ( or can honestly upon his own Principles ) blame me for what I have Writ , because they say , every man hath the Light within him , and ought to Act according to that light within himself , which I have here done ; and I can seriously tell them , that the Light and Spirit within me beareth Witness to it : and then although the Quakers should think amiss of it , or say it is bad , yet how could I help it , according to their principle , teaching me , That that ought to be my grand Rule to square all my Actions by ? And would they have me disobey tha● ? Or have a better Light than I can have ? or would they have me attempt to Invalidate the Light within me , or Gods Immutable and absolute D●cree , within ? which would be a great Impiety but to think of , they they should either Change their Creed , in 〈…〉 cular , or seem less concerned at what I have be 〈…〉 now thus writ , it being confessedly a Duty : her 〈◊〉 hope will the Quakers blame me for arguing 〈◊〉 it being no worse way of arguing than what 〈◊〉 Pen hath thought good to use against twenty 〈◊〉 Learned Divines , p. 22. nor can the Quakers tell 〈◊〉 upon their own Principles without Blasphemy ( which yet some of them have been so weak as to do ) that the Light within me is Da●kness ; for they say that the Light within every Man is Christ , and Christ is God , and GOD and CHRIST , I am sure are not , nor can be Darkness . In short , I do truly profess that I have done nothing herein , but with a good Conscience , and an honest Design . 1. With a good Conscience , I not having either wilfully or knowingly wronged the Quakers in any one particular , and if unwillingly there should happen any mistake to be committed by me ( as possibly there may be , considering the weakness that all men are subject unto ( unless Quakers ) & Ber●ardus non videt omnia ) which yet I think there will none appear , I having used the greatest Care and Circ●mspection that my occasions and time would give me leave , to prevent all : however I have that freedom of mind , that I should not be ashamed honestly to acknowledg it in Print and beg their excuse for it . If they would be so Ingenious with me , and acknowledg the wrong that G.W. hath done me ( as well as himself ) in his pretended Answer . 2. With an honest Design , it being plainly to inform and Caution others to prevent their being deluded with such vain pretences , and high swelling words amongst the Quakers , when it doth not appear they have any thing in reality 〈…〉 g them , MORE than many other Chur●●●●e , but a great deal less in many things , and 〈◊〉 the Quakers ( if it may be ) into a better sense 〈◊〉 sight of themselves : that they may consider their 〈◊〉 Poverty , nakedness , weakness and formality , ●●●withstanding all their vain boasting , and high pre●ences of Revelations more than others ; and might be shamed out of their unm●asurable Confidence and quibbling equivocations . The Quakers say they have the Spirit with measure ; but ●t is certain many of their leaders have Confidence without measure . I shall conclude with this serious Expostulation ( of the Psalmist ) to them , Psal . 4.2 . Oh ye Sons of Men , how long will ye turn my Glory into shame ! how long will ye love vanity , and seek after Leasing ? Selah ! And my Prayer shall be that of t●e Apostles , 2 Thes . 3.2 . That we may be delivered from [ absurd ] UNREASONABLE and WICKED Men. Many more of their QUIBBLES I could ( and may if I think there is necessary occasion ) intimate to you and them ; but having herein exceeded the brevity I first intended I will now forbear , and if they please to return an Answer to this , in plainness INDEED , singleness of heart and honesty , without RAILING EQUIVOCATIONS , or MENTAL RESERVATIONS , to the particular and very MATTERS in question , ( without BEGGING the question ) I shall take it candidly and receive it kindly ; but if instead thereof , they shall revile , huff , or Hector , I shall the l●ss value and regard it . AN ADVERTISEMENT TO G. Whitehead , W. Penn , and the QUAKERS . 1. TO prevent any more of your needless Scribbling and that neither the World nor my self be pestered and troubled with such stuff so little to the purpose for the future , but that if we have any Answer , it may be AD REM , plain indeed and more satisfactory , I do here before hand give you , or any other that may undertake for you , NOTICE , That if any of you do , ( or pretend to ) make a Return to this my Reply , and instead of speaking directly to THE THING that I have objected against you ( and which G. W. hath undertaken to Answer , and so is ingaged thereby to do it , since it yet remains undone ) you make Answer to SOMEWHAT ELSE , that I never mentioned nor desired of you : Or if in lieu of Answering to THE MATTER in direct and plain Terms , either by affirmative or negative Procations , you shall propose NEW QUESTIONS before the former are decided already by you undertaken , which can be only designedly and deceitfully to draw us away from the MATTER in hand , ( Both which shifting evasions , G. W. hath all along used , as I have already often hinted to him , and acquainted the World , ) that then I shall look upon all SUCH WORK to be no SATISFACTORY or PLAIN ANSWER , but a MEER EVASION and SENSELESS SCRIBBLING ; yea , and I shall take it to be a manifest Sign of the DESPERATE weakness and baffling of your CAUSE , if you are still constrained to use such mean and base Artifices and pittiful Shifts to EVADE an Answer notwithstanding you are NOW forewarned to AVOID them : And so shall ▪ look upon my self not much ( if at all ) concerned in any such like pretended and Evasive Answer , as I have ( I hope ) sufficiently demonstrated this of G. W's to be hardly worth a Man's time to take notice of , ( it being in the Judgment of many understanding and Judicious Persons , no more a real Answer to me and the main intent of my Epistle , than if he had in effect said just nothing ) except to shew the VANITY and FOLLY of it to prevent ( if any thing will do it ) their TRIFLING so for the future . 2. As once again to instance ( because I would beat it into their heads , though not so , as they beat ( or pinch ) persons out of their meetings ) I told Mr. Penn , that he had the words of man's wisdom indeed , but did ask him where the Demonstration of the Spirit was with him in POWER and mighty Signs ; and told him that if he could shew but ONE in his Church that had such Spiritual Gifts upon his turning Quaker , as was immediately inspired into those Members of the true Church in the Apostles times , upon their becoming Christians , it would put a clear difference betwixt them and the Baptists , and herein then they would EXCEED the Baptists , but now they did not . Now what is G. W's . Answer to me in this , he does not say , It is true , nor dares affirm it is false ; nor does he produce ONE such in his Church , nor yet plainly and honestly say , he cannot : now any one of these had been a plain Answer , For that was it he pretended in his Title , viz. the Quakers plainness , &c. But instead thereof , ( alas nothing , but asks NEW QUESTIONS , viz. What if God will not bestow such Gifts and Signs now ? And who is it can tell G's meaning or Answer in these words ? does he mean God will , or God will not ? I challenge him to say if he dares , negatively , That God will not-now bestow such gifts on his Church , or if he had rather , Positively , That God will now , and yet surely one of them he must mean ; but how shall another Man know which , for if I should say he means affirmatively , he may say nay , I do not say , God will now ; and if I say negatively , he may say nay , I only queried it , but did not say , God will not now . Now then let all unbyassed Readers Judg , how this then can be either a C●rtain or Plain Answer : this is like indeed the Quakers Plainness ; for here 's Equivocation and the Quakers Quibble still , yea and another Question , What say you Baptists to this Proposal ? And yet another , must this conclude the Controversy ? nay , and one more , Who then shall escap● your Censure ? nay and another upon that , Have not the Jesuites in this wise Argued ? And two or three more such Questions , p. 13 , 14. I would fain know of any sober Man in his right Wits , whether this be a plain Answer , or any Answer at all to me ? he speaking to the Baptists and asking Questions of them , that 's nothing to me . 3. And so about Muggleton , when the thing I requested of Mr. Penn , was , Why he or his friends should be believed MORE than Muggleton or an Impostor ? and what he could say , pretend to , and produce more than Muggleton or an Impostor could say , pretend to , and produce as he did ? They both pretending an immediate Commission from Heaven and to be true Prophets , &c. G.W. does not once go about to shew me why , nor wherefore , nor does so much as SAY or produce ONE thing which Muggleton or an Impostor cannot : no , not a word , but instead of that tells me , Muggleton and the Quakers are not one , and that he hol●s many Blasphemous Doctrines which they do not , and that they had writ against him . Who ever doubted of this ? I did not , I knew it all very well before , and therefore did not ask Mr. Penn any such thing ; and I can as well tell G.W. that Muggleton hath writ against the Quakers , will that prove him to be no Impostor ? If not , why should their writing against him prove them no Impostors ? And if Muggleton holds Blasphemous Doctrines , will it therefore follow , that the Quakers may not hold Blasphemous Doctrines , and so m●y be Impostors also ? no surely : the Quakers may be Impostors , notwithstanding Muggleton's holding Blasphemous Doctrines . One would think the Quakers should be ashamed of their so silly Arguing , 't is a sign they stand but upon a Sandy Foundation when they have no other and better Arguments to produce for themselves . But I did not , nor do yet know what Demonstrative Evidence and Reason you can give , why you should be Believed MORE than the Baptists , or lookt upon by any , to be a truer Church than they , nay nor yet , why your pretended Commission from Heaven should be Credited MORE than Muggletons : and therefore I prayed W.P. to tell me that . Now can any man think this of G.W. to be a plain and satisfactory Answer to that : As if when I talk of REASONS , G.W. he presently thinks of PLUMBS , and much at that rate he Answers me : Oh strange Quakerism ! That it should sometimes bereave men both of their Consciences and Wits at once ! And yet make them so strangely confident as to appear wilfully blind ( if not impudent ) in such their palpable Evasions , and notorious Equivocations , in the face of the World . 4. My Epistle was but very short , and let it be remembred it was Expostulatory , and yet G. W , in his Plainness , gives the Plain go-by , to one whole Paragraph in it , viz. the third in p. 14 , and 15. where I expostulated and demanded of W.P. if he was faithful , and just to his Agreement , or if he was Reasonable in himself , to oppose with three men besides against one , &c. He takes not the least notice of it , and p. 16. I inquired of W.P. whe●her T. Hicks might not then say in W. P 's own Language , Thou art a Forger , and hast forged this Distinction for thy Friend , it not being set down in thy own Friends Book : and that it was such a silly Distinction as was impossible to hold good , if the Quakers Principle touching the Christ hold true : and many more such Expostulations that G.W. says not one word to , and yet this it seems I must take for an Answer and the Quakers-Plainness ▪ ( & it is very likely most of their poor Disciples take it as SUCH , and willingly believe it upon the Credit of their Leaders , or the bare Report of some of their Friends as if it was so indeed , without ever reading it judiciously and examining it throughly : Ah poor d●ceived and deluded Souls ! ) THEREFORE that you may not pretend Ignorance , nor unnecessarily imploy your selves to no purpose , except it be to EVADE AN ANSWER , whilst you hypocritically pretend to GIVE ONE : which will but Evince your Cause to be foul and desperate that needs such a Cloak to hide it , ( which yet you have worn now Thredbare by your so often using it in your Answers to other men's Books ) I have thought good here to give you NOTICE of it , and acquaint you what will be honest , plain , and satisfactory , but that such Shifts and Quibbles as you have already used , are not , will not , nor can be so . 5. After all I have already said , I freely declare , I stand almost astonied at the Prodigious CONFIDENCE of the Leading Quakers ( of the Foxonian Tribe ) audacious Attempts in such Evasive Replies to their Opponents , daubed over ( to beguile the simple-hearted or deceived Quakers ) with seeming Vindications , when their dreadful accusing Consciences ( if not absolutely seared ) at the same time cannot but tell them how greatly the sincerer sort of Quakers have been burthen●d , yea grievously afflicted these many years , ( under the sence of Guilt that rests on those called the BODY ) I may say even to the highest Degree of Perplexity , witness , J.P. W.M. J.O. W.G. T.M. M.S. T.F. J.F. M.P. A.M. with many more ; and although some of them may have tr●ckled under the TYRANNICAL power of this BODY ( so called ) i. e. their Church ( though it be indeed Principally , but of G. Foxes Building ) yet their Consciences cannot but bear Witness to what I have said in this Respect . Here 's all that can be said in favour of such wicked Practices , that it seems they must by Decree ( to uphold their Cause as long as they can ) set SOMETHING forth in Print as an Answer , or that bears the Title of an Answer , to all that comes out against them . 6. It must be a very strong and notorious Delusion , these Leading-Quakers are under , if they do not see themselves manifestly Guilty of Abominable Equivocations and Quibbling in the greatest matters of Faith and Religion controverted between them and others : Insomuch , that notwithstanding their now loud pretences of professing Christ , according to the Holy Scriptures ( so long as they do not nor will disclaim their For●er Professions to the Contrary , and their former abuses , put upon the Scriptures ) and notwithstanding their loud Clamors against the Socinians , as denying the Divinity of Christ ; yet themselves must know , that they deny CHRIST to be either God or Man in the sence that Christians acknowledg him to be so , see Contest for Christianity , p. 115 , 116 , 117. and Controv. ended , p. 44. to 54. And consequently they Introduce into the profession of Religion and the Scriptures such Equivocations and ambiguous Quibbling , as Renders the most Religious Confessions , Profound Deceits , and the Words of God Recorded in Scripture , no better than a Nose of Wax , most dangerous and false . 7. There are five or six little Books that do very ingeniously and fully set forth and give an accompt of the Deceit , Impostures , intolerable Pride , Hypocrisy , and Tyranny , with the Popish Principles and vile Practices of some of your Leaders and Ministers of the Foxonian party , chiefly in Matters of Fact , which are visible to the Eyes and subject to the Senses of Men , viz. The Spirit of the Quakers tryed , Controversy ended , The Spirit of the Hat , Tyranny and Hypocrisy detected , Questions for the Quakers , to which may be added The Quakers Spiritual-Court . The which , or some of them at least , I should advise all Persons Judiciously to peruse , that would be infor●ed concerning them : For notwithstanding that the Quakers have Printed something that bears the Name of Answers , I do seriously think and hereby advertise them , that those Books are IN EFFECT as much un-answered as if they had not writ twenty lines about it , for indeed what these Quakers have writ in Reply , is but ABOUT it , not TO it . They beat about the Bush and that 's all , they make the greatest noise like the Lapwing , when indeed they are farthest off . What shall I say to your poor pittiful , slight , shifting evasive and equivocating Replies to these Books ? What shall I say to that heavy Charge of TYRANNY and HYPOCRISY exhibited against you in the Book bearing that Title ? What shall I say to that equal , just , and fair Proffer made to you therein ? and your not-accepting of it ? p. 49. and Title-Page . 'T is offered over and over again to the Quakers : To refer the Judgment of matters of Fact to the verdict of twelve impartial and honest men , EQUALLY to be chosen , and that in case the Quakers & the others should not agree in the choice of the Persons ; it was proposed , that the Vmpirage should be referred to the LORD-MAJOR of London or any Alderman on the Bench , or to any one of twenty Common Council-men , and if the Quakers would put it to this just honest and fair Issue , that they should signifie it in writing , and leave it with Francis Smith Bookseller ( dwelling in Cornhil ) and they should find their Accusers ready to comply therewith . Now , why dare and do you not thus adventure the Tryal of it ? And why will W.P. notwithstanding Cry out for Proof , and exclaim that you are horribly belied and slandered ; and that they are all Lies , Slanders and Forgeries , ( and this is the chiefest part of your Answers : ) If they are so indeed , or ye Quakers so innocent therein as you would pretend , nothing could possibly more honour and advantage the Quakers and their Cause here , as clearly to Evince it and have this Judged for them by honest and impartial Men on both sides ; and it being only matter of Fact , such men are capable to judg of it : for shame then W.P. and ye Quakers do not any more cry out Gross Lies , Slanders and Forgeries , till you have agreed to this fair propose , and have had the matters indifferently heard , as so long profferred you , and it be proved so : what will ye thus decline the Proof and Tryal , and yet exclaim as wronged ? oh unreasonable ! 8. What shall I say ? What can be said to such Men ? What can be expected from them ? Or who ( that is not infatuated ) can believe them or approve of their Confidence , whereby they make themselves ridiculous , and manifest to the world , that some of them have neither tender Consciences nor shame in them , to stand in things with such perverseness of Spirit ( not to say Impudence ) against not only Common Sense and REASON , But OCULAR DEMONSTRATION , saying any thing Backwards or Forwards as they please , and that without Blushing : I will name but three Instances now . 1. Witness those many Texts of Scripture perverted , ●ltered , changed , and corrupted by G. Fox , when he charges others with falshood , corrupting and perverting the Scriptures , for doing the like or less as is set forth in several particulars in the Spirit of the Quakers tryed , where in some places G. Fox puts THEM for HIM , Col. 3.10 . Conscience for Thoughts , Rom. 2.15 . he puts Christ's Belly for the Believers Belly , John 7.38 . puts another person into the Text , John 10.29 . Leaves out the SPIRIT , in 1 Cor. 2.10 . puts IT for WE , in 2 Cor. 2.16 . IS for WAS , in 2 Cor. 5.19 . Leaves out the word WILFULLY , in Heb. 10.26 . puts speaking for Prophecying , 1 Cor. 14.31 . &c. Now as that Author says well , any one that can but Read and understand English , and knows that A is not B , or HIM is not THEM , or that IT is not , nor can be WE , may know that G. Fox hath committed Falshoods , altered , changed and corrupted several Scriptures , and yet Mr. Penn hath undertaken to vindicate him in these matters , though against his own & other Mens Eyes , and yet if you will credit W. Penn , this is the Spirit of Truth , or the Truth that he vindicates . 2. Nay , let G. Fox their grand Prophet not only speak the greatest NONSENCE , but Write it and publish it also , to the World in Print ; yet Mr. Penn will vindicate it and Justifie him also ; G. Foxe's words are these , [ And so to the word Christ Jesus , him by whom the World was made before it was made ] and this G. Fox says SEVEN times over in his Book ; and another time thus , [ By which the World was made before it was made ] Now if any Man that understands English and Sence except a Quaker ) will not say this is absolute NONSENCE that G. F. here ascribes to CHRIST , and not fit for any Man of Ingenuity , and that is a Schollar or regards his Credit , to vindicate , then I am wonderfully deceived and know not my Mother-Tongue ; and yet if you will believe W. Penn , this is the Truth or Spirit of Truth still which he vindicates , oh horrid ! 3. Nay more , Write and Print BLASPHEMY , and then stand in it and Justifie it when they have done : Witness , Solomon Eccles ( one of these Quaking Ministers ) in his Book , called the Quakers Challenge ; he says of GEORGE FOX , whose name thou art not worthy to take into thy mouth , who is a Prophet indeed , and hath been faithful in the Lords business from the beginning . It was said of CHRIST , That he was in the world , and the world was made by him , and the world knew him not ; SO IT MAY BE SAID OF THIS TRUE PROPHET , whom Iohn said , HE WAS NOT ; But thou wilt feel this Prophet one day , as heavy as a Mill-stone upon thee , &c. And yet G. Whitehead undertakes to vindicate this BLASPHEMOUS SPEECH , and says , it is a LITTLE FAILURE in Syntax , ( for so his Conscience will serve him to call BLASPHEMY , when it is utterred and published by a QUAKER , though against the Lord CHRIST ) ah George ! canst thou call it but a LITTLE FAILURE , is that a Truth ? At the best , surely it is no less than a GREAT FAILURE . 9. And as for George's DIRECTION of Sol. Eccles INTENTION in G. W's . serious search p. 58. I pray my Reader and you Quakers , but to peruse the MYSTERY of JESUITISM , ( particularly Letter ninth , Letter seventh , and Letter sixth , beginning at p. 122. ) and see whether it may not be concluded George is almost as good an Artist at it as they , or at least , if he be not fit ( and a towardly Youth ) for their School , to teach people how to equivocate ( not to say ●ly ) neatly , by DIRECTING the INTENTION : and if George or Solomon Eccles may direct the Intention in THIS , why not in OTHER things : And if George , why not the Jesuites ? Or if the Jesuites , Why not George ? And this being once set thus on foot , who hath power to stop it , or who can tell where it may center , except GEORGE FOX , or the POPE ? For if George or SOL. may in DOCTRINALS ; or Cases of BLASPHEMY , why may not the Jesuites in MORALS and in Cases of THEFT , LYING and ADULTERY ? I desire you Friends seriously to weigh and consider this , and what can certainly satisfy you and others herein . When the Quakers shall speak or write one thing , and tell you themselves they mean another , or do not intend all they speak or write . But here 's the misery on 't ; If Mr. Hicks or any of your Opponents do but write , A for THE , or do but say a DIALOGUE , and not BY WAY OF DIALOGUE , or do but say YOU for THOU , or the like , Oh then it is Forgery , Lies , Blasphemous Slanders , Sinful , impure , and Corrupt : then it is not a little Failure in Syntax only , which the Law of Charity would not take notice of . But let a Quaker say or write that which is a hundred times worse , nay though it be in it self Blasphemy against Christ ; Yet then it is only a little Failure in Syntax , and against the Law of Charity to reflect on a Man , &c. 10. Upon this occasion I could not but lament ( 't is not unlikely another would have smiled ) to see that G.W. in his serious search , p. 24. hath such a rare Invention ( I will not say Black-Art ) that if Jer. Ives does but say , if you dare appoint time and place [ to discourse about the Quakers Religion and Ministers ] George can and hath transform'd , ( I will not say Conjur'd ) it , into an Insolent frothy Challenge , and like the common Hectors and Sword-men of the times . But three or four Challenges that three grand Quakers viz. G. Fox . E. Burroughs , and Sol. Eccles made , wherein the very same words are , and abundantly more audacious , as a Challenge at two Weapons , Name , Persons , Time and Place , a Duel , and if you DARE , ( as is worth your seeing more at large in J. Ives Quest . for the Quakers ) yet George's Holiness hath Pope-like sanctified them , and they are serious Challenges , on a serious Religious Account . Oh excellent Religion ! But the other he Condemns , ( as if it were Curst with Bell , Book , and Candle ) in p. 19 , 20 , and 23. Oh wonderful George ! that hath such a POWER to Sanctify and unsanctify words with a small dash of his Pen as he pleases . Here I say is the Misery , and this is the most gross abominable Hypocrisy , unreasonableness , Partiality , and uncharitableness that can be heard of , against the Light of Nature , the Light of Conscience and the Light of Scripture : That the same things or ten times worse should be no faults or but little trivial ones in Quakers , and yet gross falshoods , horrible lies and Forgeries in other men . The Lord open your eyes , that you may first learn to Judg your selves , and Cast the Beam out of your own eye , before you go to cast the M●●e out of anothers . 11. Now for your saying & unsaying , Backwards and forwards , I have particularly manifested it in this my Reply , G.F. condemning what G.W. uses , and G.W. condemning what G.K. used , and W.P. condemning what G.W. Teaches , and sometimes G.W. condemning and confuting G.W. himself , and so round and round again : But now notwithstanding all this ( considering what their Practices above related have been , and that they are generally such ) I do expect and must not doubt in the least , but that they will have that stupendious Confidence , as to deny all this , ( or not confess it , ) yea , and will say , it is false and horrid Slanders , though we read it , we see it with our eyes , and hear it with our ears , yet our sences must be all deceived ; and the Quakers only in the Truth : and if any will , they may , believe them not only before ( but against ) their own Eyes , I cannot help it , neither shall I concern my self much at it , But only to express my real sorrow for to see any one so strangely deluded . What else may I ? What must I ? nay what can I expect from such Men , that have in this manner so often declared themselves in Print already , who can undertake to vindicate falshoods and nonsence , and their grand false Prophet G.F. and call this a vindication of the Truth , or Spirit of Truth . ( Is G. Fox the Truth , or Spirit of Truth ? no certainly , much less then , are his Falsehoods and nonsence , the Truth or Spirit of Truth ) and who will vindicate such words as are in themselves no less than Blasphemy , asserting , it may be said yea , and SO said of George Fox , as it was said of CHRIST , That he was in the World , and the World was made by him and the World knew him not , whom John said he was not : nay , and this is not only set down without exception ; but on the contrary , a parity or likeness affirmed that SO it may be said of this true Prophet [ G. Fox : ] now we believe it was truly said of CHRIST . 12. I doubt not but that I may with safety say , That Mr. Penn , and G. Whitehead ( if either of them please ) may with as much Truth , Honour and Sence , and with as little BLASPHEMY undertake to vindicate and Justify POOR ROBINS Position and Allegorical Proof , That the Moon is made of Green Cheese . And though this at first may seem strange to some Persons that may read it , yet I speak it considerately and not rashly , and do really think that if any Judicious Person does but duly weigh the one and the other , he will find it so ; and yet these are the Pretending Divinely-Commissioned and Inspired Prophets and Ministers , and the Infallible Doctors of the only True Church ; which undervalue and Condemn all the World besides . Surely , had they instead of this Arrogance and Pride , but a little Humility and Charity , it would make them quite of another mind ; and thus all that will , may see how they RESPECT Persons among the Quakers , and what DIVINE HONOUR , some of them give , and DIVINE POWER they ascribe , to their grand Prophet George Fox . God in his Infinite mercy , open the eyes of all sincere-hearted ( though not so discerning , yet ) well-meaning Christians , That they may understand and see that it is absolute FOLLY ( if not MADness ) for any one to turn from another Church to the Quakers , since they do produce no real or certain Discriminating Testimony and Evidence ( but only their bare say-so ) nor do SAY any MORE than others can , no nor yet so much as many other Churches in some things do . And this I leave with you and all , seriously to consider and judiciously to weigh in the Ballance of true Judgment . T. T THE Quakers Character OF THE QUAKERS QUIBBLES . 1. IN the first place , I was given to understand that Mr. Ed. Billing ( having been at the Quakers Cabal ) was first pleased to bestow this Character on 't , viz. That it was the Quibblers Quibbles , and that was Answer enough to it . Reply . — Honest Ned hath hit the Nail o' th head : For the Quibbles I am certain were the Quakers ; and thus then ( by their old Friends confession ) the Quakers are still the Quibblers . But I suppose he did not there find any of these Quibbles . Oh if thou couldst but see my heart within , as plainly as thou seest my Face without , Thou wouldst not deny — as I am a man , as I am an English man , as I am a Christian I will — However , if this little Epistle be any , yet certainly , not such a Quibble , as modest Ned B's little Paper , Printed for satisfaction of — There was a Quibble indeed , a grand Quibble with a witness , so loud that it was heard through the Kingdom ; thus he might have been silent , or better Answered himself : And 't is no small Quibble of the Quakers , to own any Persons privately , whil'st they pretend to disown them publickly . 2. Thomas Taunton a Quaker , Characterized it on this wise , That that Pamphlet was made by a Cabal of Anabaptists , and was a meer Forgery , &c. Reply . This Man I declare to be a false Prophet , and that his Revelation herein was a meer Forgery , ( to speak in his own Language ) for there was not one Baptist or Anabaptist did see it or know any thing of it , till after it was written & delivered to the Bookseller ; as I have before declared as in the presence of God , and therefore this Quaker was herein led by a False Light , or a False Spirit , and hath abused and wronged the Baptists with a matter absolutely UNTRUE . 3. Lastly , it past it seems the Censure of one Tho. Rudyard , which I heare was on this wise : He being ask● , if he did not think it was an ingenious piece , answered No , and that he Believed a Boy of ten years old might write as Rational a thing , and that the Author designed to make a piece of Drollery , but not having Wit enough , brought it forth an Hermophrodite . Reply . If T.R. thinks good , to call ( his Brethren ) the Quakers Quibbles , Drollery , I cannot help it , let them call him to an account for that ; but I am much of T. R's mind , that their Quibbles want wit enough ( though not Confidence ) to make a piece of Drollery , and so come forth but an Hermophrodite : Witness T. R's own Quibbling Answer , to Jer. Ives sober Request , who therein Quibbled so finely and Drolled so long with Jeremy about Oaths , and being that Jeremy , &c. till at last he brought that Jeremy in good earnest upon all their Backs , who hath given some of the●r Grand ones their Bellies-full of Swearing and Oaths too , in his Questions for the Quakers . Now this of T. R's might be such a rational and ingenious piece indeed , as it may be a Boy of ten years old might not , and yet a Boy of about thirty might Write : And I have heard that some of T. R's own Brethren have lookt upon it , as a very Ridiculous and silly thing for him to write so about Swearing as he did , but that he deals so much in it ; and a Quaker may be Fool-hardy , as well as others , why not ? Had I been John Osgood , or Gerard Roberts , I would rather have given T.R. fifty pounds , than to have had my Name brought upon the Stage in so gross a matter , as here T.R. by his over-self-conceited-Ingenuity hath wondrous well occasioned , to no small shame of the Quakers . Let Thomas Rudyard compare his Practice of SUEING people with James Naylors Doctrine [ Possession of the Living Faith , p. 7. ] It was never the Faith of Christ to SUE , Contend , &c. and and T.R. may see , what an Hermophrodite-Quaker himself will appear . Besides , one might take notice here of a Quakers Belief ; but let that pass , as not being worth taking notice ; For they manifest sufficiently , they regard not much what they say or write , so it may but undervalue others and arrogantly lift up themselves . FINIS . Mr. Smith , YOU having so well and carefully published the former , I have thought fit to send you by this Porter , & do Recommend this second Part of the Quakers-Quibbles to your like Care ; and desire you to ask no Questions . Only I must request this favour of you ( if without too much trouble to you it may be done ) That if any sober Person , or Civil Quaker , shall suspect or doubt whether I have truely cited the Quakers words out of their own Books ; That if they come to you , and desire it , you would procure such of the Quakers Books as they shall make question of ( if you can find , or have them ) and shew them at your shop , for their better satisfaction , that so they may believe their OWN EYES at least . And that you send one of this second Part to Mr. Whitehead , and another to Mr. Penn. So farewell , Thy friend though unknown , T.T. Jan. 1. 74 / 5. THE THIRD PART OF THE QUAKERS QUIBBLES . BEING A Continuation of their Quibbles , Equivocations , Riddles , Contradictions , Rounds , and Confusions , set forth in ten several Particulars . Whereunto is Added Remarks on G. W ' s. Slight Sheet , given forth by him as a Reprehension ( for want of an Answer ) to the Second Part of the QVAKERS QVIBBLES . With some further Account of their Grand Mystery of DIRECTING the INTENTION . By the same Indifferent Pen. If [ ye ] Build again , the things which [ ye ] Destroyed [ ye ] make [ your selves ] Transgress●rs , Gal , 2.18 . Diruit , Aedificat , Mutat Quadrata Rotundis . Erroris Mater fuit Aequivocatio semper . LONDON , Printed for F. Smith at the Elephant and Castle in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1675. TO THE Free Spirited Impartial READER . AS it is left us upon Record in Holy Writ , that GOD at sundry times , and in divers manners hath spoken unto his Prophets and People for the Salvation of Men ; so we are thereby likewise assured , that SATHAN at sundry times , and in divers Forms hath spoken to , and deceived many Souls , by pretending great Light , great Knowledge , high things in words and semblance , Imitating ( as near as might be ) the works and ways of GOD , but still without that true Divine Power which enabled those immediate Men of God VISIBLY to out-do all the deceiving Pretences , and Ape-like Imitations of the Devil's Instruments , in the sight of all Men present ; as Moses's Serpent swallowed up all the Egyptian Sorcerers Serpents ; and Paul being filled with the Holy Ghost , was able to over-come , and strike Elymas the Sorcerer with outward Blindness . Now , this was IN DEED , and not in TALK only , to be in the Power , and filled with the Holy Ghost ; and the Text says , Then the Deputy , when he saw what was done , believed . And no sooner had our Glorious Lord JESVS CHRIST Visibly Ascended to Heaven without us , and fulfilled his great Promise of sending his Holy Spirit upon his Apostles and Disciples , which was in a visible manner , enduing them with Power ( not onely the Name , but the Thing ) to speak with Tongues , to Prophecy indeed , and to work visible Miracles , for the Confirmation of that Word and Doctrine they Preach'd to the World , Heb. 2.4 . ( and this is in Scripture-Language true Spirit Baptism , or the Bapti●● of the Spirit ( and this is it which was for Persons to be Baptized indeed with the Holy Spirit , as it is expresly called , Acts 1.5 ) and of Fire , There appeared unto them Cloven Tongues , like as of Fire , and it sat upon each of them , and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost . ) But Sathan ( that Old Serpent , not willing to be long idle ) did quickly raise up , even in those true Apostles days , many Pretenders , false Prophets , and false Apostles , some of the first whereof . Ancient Records tell us , were called Nicolaitans and Gnosticks , who pretended high and strange Light , Knowledge , and Illumination beyond others . And it is Observable of all the Forms into which Sathan Transformed himself , it seems none is , nor was more taking , than what he used in the true Apostles days , viz. Transforming himself into an Angel of LIGHT ; and therefore no marvel if such as are false Apostles , are found Transforming themselves into the Apostles of Christ . Nor is it any great thing ( as the true Apostle Intimates to us ) if such as are indeed Sathans Ministers also be Transformed as the Ministers of Righteousness . If the wicked one could play such pranks and be so bold then , how much more may we expect and suspect it now ; and it is no strange thing , if some of his Ministers and Instruments now be Transformed into Angels , or Messengers of Light : Pretend the Light , Talk of the Light , Preach up the Light , Own the Light , Witness the Light , and Cry out , the Light , the Light. And whereas a certain sort of People lately sprung up among us , did pretend to high Illuminations , and talkt much of the Light they walkt in above others ; and of the Power , immediate Calling , and Gifts of the Spirit that they had , as in the Apostles time : And as they pretended to higher things than others , so I did set my self more especially and seriously to hear , consider , weigh , and try them , their Doctrines and Principles , for about these Twenty Years . But alas , in lieu of finding any such thing amongst them , as the same Light , Power , and immediate Commission and Gifts of the Spirit that the Apostles , and Apostolical Churches had ( and which they then did pretend to , & blame others for want of ) I could see nor hear nothing among them , but the meer Words , and bare Pretences , and taking up some such things by Imitation , as they fan●ied in themselves , and as they found the Apostles wrote , or the Scriptures spoke of , as many others do ( whom yet they did once Condemn for that very thing , ) yea , and in●tead thereof I have Observed the greatest Inconstancy , Vncertainty , Turn , and Change amongst them , that I think ever was to be found among any People that pretended to so refined Sublime a Religion , in the space of Twenty Years , and yet all this while to talk of , or pretend to INFALLIBILITY , which hath Occasioned them ( to defend themselves from those who have taken more notice of their Inconstancy , Vncertainty , and Changes than they were willing should be ) to use the greatest Quibbling , and grossest Equivocations that have been used in Religious matters , ever since the Jesuites new modell'd the Art , the better to hide it , and themselves . Some of their most Considerable Quibbles in their Doctrine touching that Grand Principle of our true Lord and Saviour JESVS CHRIST , I had Occasion given me by them , to set forth more particularly in my Second Treatise , beginning at p. 29. But my intended Brevity not permitting , and not knowing but that these Persons might learn to be somewhat more humble , meek , moderate , and civil , when they should rightly reflect on it and themselves , then prevented me of proceeding any further therein : Yet since I understand it is very much desired by others , and the Quakers as much to want it , they being as Confidently outragious as before ( for in the midst of all their Inconstancies in their Practice and Doctrines I find them chiefly constant in these two things in their Practice , viz. their egregious Confidence , and their Railing , Reviling Language to others ; and in that it may be truly said of them , Can the Ethiophian change his skin , or the Leopard his spots ? ) wherefore here is set forth more of their Quibbles in several particulars , and that in some most weighty and important Points ; as those of the Church , the Annointing , the Holy Spirit , and the Holy Scriptures ; and in other Matters which by the Quakers were at first made very weighty also , however now they are Declined from what they once Pretended . And if that be admitted , neither themselves nor others can have any Certainty in them , or of them , for they may pretend the Spirit leads them to this to Day , and that to Morrow , and to a third thing quite different the next Day ; and they may say ( as some of them have done ) that they had not a clear Discerning of the Lord's Voyce in this thing then , nor in that thing now ; and so they may as well pretend seven and seventeen Years hence , for it depends onely upon their bare Word to others ; and thus they make their Religion as unconstant as the Moon , and as wavering as the Wind. But how all this should be , and yet the Quakers all this while pretend to INFALLIBILITY , and That such their Writings and Doctrines were given forth by the Spirit of the Lord in them , though thus Contradictory , is such a Quibble and Riddle , as would puzzle Oedipus himself ( were he here ) to un-riddle . I should not delight in this threatning day to be uncovering their Nakedness , did I not judge it a Duty to warn you ( and endeavour to lead them out ) of all False Coverings , which in vain they would hide themselves under in their Defiled State , rendring themselves by so doing but the more Naked in the sight of God and good men , and giving the Enemy greater Occasion against them . I have mentioned but some of those many that might be Collected by any that does but seriously Observe them , and their Writings ; I had a large Field to walk in : For who is it that knew them formerly , and doth not see their palpable and grand Alteration now , in their Gestures , their Words , their Salutations , ( for now they 'l greet one in the Market-place , ( which they use to tell us the Pharisees did ) asking in the Market , How doest thou do ? ) In their Freedom in Eating and Drinking ; the Furniture of their Houses , their Cloaths , both for Fashion and Fineness of the Stuff ; minding the World , and the things of the World ; their heaping up Riches , and particularly in their now going to Law , and having one or more Lawyers , or Attorneys of them , besides their Swearing in our Courts , or if not , doing therein something that is worse ; and almost in their whole Practice and Conversation , as well as in many of their Doctrines and Principles ? Which if some abler Pen should undertake to set forth , it might be the better , and not unnecessary , as it is possible hereafter some one may be moved to do . Neither I think should I have done thus much , but that I find they are grown of late Years so excessive High , Proud , Imperious , Scornful , and Hardened in a strange kind of Confidence and Quibbling Equivocations , beyond the bounds of Modesty and Reason , that they have need of something to make them sensible , if it may be , and better to know themselves , that they may not thus proudly Despise , Curse , and Condemn everlastingly others that are not of their Body , Church , and Way . Certainly the Old Serpent was the first Equivocator , Evasive Quibbler , and so the grandest Hypocrite that ever was , when he deceived our great Grand-Mother Eve , and it is as certain by what we see with our Eyes , and hear with our Ears , that he hath not yet forgot that Old Trade ; no small instances whereof , the Quakers late Practices , and many of their Pamphlets ( which you will find here cited ) most evidently appear to be . I beseech you therefore give me leave in the Bowels of Love and Compassion seriously to warn and admonish you ( and such of them as will hear ) to look well to your goings , and consider upon what it is you stand ; whether it be not very much upon Mens bare words , or your own Fancies , or at best , in Naked likenesses , and meer Imitations , after you have been so long crying out against all Humane Traditions , Literal Imitations , making of Likenesses and Figures to your selves , of what you find was once the Condition of others , and beware of such uncertain , variable , changeable Lights and Doctrines , as have no certainer basis than Geo. Foxes Light , or Mr. Penn's Sandy Foundation . Be not High-minded , but Fear , and let the Royal Law of CHARITY continue above all , amongst all , and I shall subscribe my self An Vnfeigned desirer of thy Souls Welfare . THOMAS THOMPSON . THE CONTENTS . SECT . I. THE Quakers Quibbles about their Quaking and Trembling , and discerning the Lords voice . SECT . II. Their Quibbles about Set-days , and Set places . SECT . III. Their Quibbles about their Body ( alias the Church ) and Forms , as the Hat and Hand . SECT . IV. Their Quibbles about Flesh being Silent . SECT . V. Their Quibbles about the Annointing . SECT . VI. Their Quibbles about the Spirit . SECT . VII . Their Quibbles and Hypocrisie about Scholarship and Languages . SECT . VIII . Their Quibbles and Hypocrisie about punching People , and thrusting and haling them out of Meetings . SECT . IX . Their Quibbles and Hypocrisie in their former Practice of Disturbing of Ministers , in Parish Assemblies , with Reference to their Practice now . SECT . X. Their Grand Quibbles about , and gross abuse of the Holy Scriptures , Collected out of their Own Books . The Conclusion . Sam. Fisher Transpos'd on the Precedent Occasion . Remarks on G. W's . slight Sheet , containing SECT . I. Of G. W's . Title , and his false Suggestion . 2. Of the Authors Name and Letter . 3. Of Socinianism , and the Divinity of Christ , which the Quakers own . 4. Of Scornful Reflections . 5. Of the Miraculous Gifts of the Spirit and Prophesie . 6. Of the Manifestation of the Spirit . 7. Of the Discerning of Spirits . 8. Of Vnbelievers and Muggleton , &c. 9. Of the Quakers Jesuitical Art of Directing the Intention . G. W's . Letter to the Author , and the Author's Answer . The Third Part OF THE QUAKERS QUIBBLES . Being a Continuation of their Quibbles , Equivocations , Contradictions , Riddles , Rounds , and Confusions , in several particulars . THAT Flood of Follies and Absurdities , that Cloud of Confusions , and Self - contradictions , which shatters it self up and down by Plats in sundry Showres throughout the sundry Pages of those Mens Books , every Eye that Reads them ( as they there lye at a distance ) 't is possible may not so easily set sight on them . Therefore I shall cull some few of them only out ( for the whole Number passes my skill to cast Account of ) and clap them a little closer together , not so much to shame them , as to honour the Truth which they would shame . That they may be the more Ready to be Read , and apparent to the view of every Ordinary Reader , ( That any , save such , as seeing , will not see ) may see the Sword of the Lord already laid on the Arm and Right-eye of the Idol-Prophets , to the drying up of the one , and the darkening of the other , for perverting the right way of the Lord ; so that they see not the Sun of Righteousness , nor yet the Moon of so much as Common sense and Reason ; but grope about in the mist of their own muddy minds , so as to need some to Lead them by the Hand , and shew them whereabouts they are , and what a shaking Sandy Foundation they stand on . Sam. Fisher's Addit . Appendix , [ Transpros'd ] p. 2. SECT . I. The Quakers Quibbles concerning Quaking and Trembling , and Discerning the Lord's Voyce . Sect. 1. ABout sixteen Years ago , this was their Doctrine ; A Paper sent forth into the World from them that are scornfully called Quakers , p. 5. Moses , who was Judge over all Israel , feared , Quaked , and Trembled exceedingly : And the Son of Man was to eat his Bread , with Quaking : And Daniel the Man of God trembled , and was astonish'd . And Jeremiah , the Prophet of the Lord , all his Bones did Shake : And David , who was King , Trembled and Quaked : And Habakkuk , who was a Prophet , Trembled ; his Belly shook , his Lips quivered . And Isaac , in whom the Seed was called , Trembled exceedingly : And Paul , a Minister of Christ , Trembled : But they [ viz. The Priests and Teachers ] make a scorn of Trembling and Quaking , and shew themselves ignorant , and strangers to the Life and Power of God , as their Generation ever was — But the Seed of God and the Prophets , and the Servants of the Lord we own , and their Conditions we witness ; and therefore all the Priests we utterly deny . Sam. Fisher , in his Rusticus ad Academicos , second Exercitation , p. 18. As for that Holy Duty it self of Quaking and Trembling at the Word of God , which as blind a Guide , and brute a Beast as thou [ viz. Dr. Owen ] art in speaking evil of what thou knowest , as also of what thou knowest not ; thou both ownest and acknowledgest the Holy Men of God were taken with of Old , when moved to utter his Word , as it came to them , ( witness thy own words , the coming of the Word to them filled them with dread and Reverence of God , Hab. 3.16 . And also greatly affected even their outward Man ) — yet we own it ( as thou in word doest ) &c. And accordingly then was their Practice ; it was a very frequent thing among them , almost in every Meeting , one might see One or More of them , Quaking , Shaking , and Trembling . Sect. 2. But now to wheel about again ; about Ten Years afterwards , Observe how the Quaker would Quibble and mince the Matter , in Patrick Livingstone's plain and down right dealing with them that were with us , and are gone out from us , p. 10. I will here give you his own words , he being ( as I understand ) one of the Quakers Ministry . Now , those that were with us , and are gone from us , they pretend to own the first coming forth , and they cry , where is the Power that was at first ? — But here we see the subtilty of the Enemy , because the mighty motions of the Bodies of Friends are ceased , and Friends are still , cool , and quiet ; therefore these Persons are made to think that the same Power is not in Meetings ; but Oh ye Foolish Ones , and beguiled by the Enemy ! Can ye not discern the Times ; That time , and this time ? When Physick is given to the Body , is it not to work terribly , that it may purge the Body ? And when all is purged out the Physick leaves working , and the Body is still ? Were not all the breakings and meltings , and terrible Shakings and Quakings of Friends Bodies , to purge ●ut sin , and to bring to stilness , coolness , and calmness of mind ? — Now , when these terrible Shakings , Breakin gs , and Meltings were , they were but for a little time , and so were quickly gone again ; and the Voyce of the Lord was not distinctly discerned there ; but these were that thereby Sin might be purged out ; and then the Cause of Terrible Potions was taken away , and the stilness being come , that 's a durable thing , a Solid Condition ; and here the Mind is brought into a CAPACITY to discern the Voyce of the LORD ; whereas in the time of the violent Motions , the Mind was so hurried , and tossed with the Rage of the Enemy , so that there was not a clear discerning what might be done , or left undone in many things . So far he : And what Concords here ? Does not this sound like Harp and Harrow ? Let any one Observe how the Quakers are changed , both in their Doctrine and Practice , and yet I am almost of the Opinion , that the Quakers will have the Face and Confidence to deny it , though it be thus palpable to our very eyes and Senses . Sect. 3. P. Livingstone , one of their Ministers , would here Quibble indeed , mince and extenuate the Business , and yet alas , all to no purpose , except to render themselves both more Ridiculous , and Hypocritical ; For , When the Quakers opposed the Ministers , then Quaking and Trembling was to continue for Thousands of Years , even from Isaac , Moses , &c. to our time , and the Ministers not witnessing in themselves that Condition of the Holy men of God , was then by the Quakers urged as ground enough for the Ministers utterly to be denyed . But to turn round again , when now within this seven Years the Foxonian Quakers are Questioned by other Quakers for their Quaking being CEASED among them ; Oh then ! [ it is the subtilty of the ENEMY , and they cannot discern times , and Quaking was but for a little time , and was to purge out sin : ] And that you may yet further see the Vanity of all this Quibbling , do but consider , or let P. Livingstone tell you if he pleases . 1. Whether the Son of Man's Trembling and Quaking was to purge out Sin ? 2. What , had the Son of Man Sin to purge out , and the Quakers now none ? Had Isaac , Moses , Daniel , Jeremiah , and those Holy Men of God , Sin then to purge out more than the Quakers have now ? 3. But how do those that have within these seven Years been Converted to Quakerism without such terrible motions of Body and Quakings as was at first among them ? What , had they no Sin at all to purge out ? Or , are they still among the Quakers with their Sins unpurged ? 4. Now , when these Terrible shakings were ( says the Quaker ) [ The VOICE of the LORD was not distinctly DISCERNED there ] Oh Excellent ! what , did not the Son of Man , Isaac , Moses , Daniel , and Habakkuk , &c. before , and when they Trembled , and Quaked , distinctly discern the Voice of the Lord ? Surely they dare not say so : and if they say they did , but the Quakers did not , then the Quakers Trembling was not like the Trembling of those Prophets and Holy Men of God of Old. 5. Besides , whereas this Quaker tells us , That when these Terrible Shakings were , the Voice of the Lord was not distinctly discerned . He thereby confesses that the Quakers THEN ( notwithstanding all their talk and high pretences ) did not distinctly discern the Voice of the Lord ; which I think may be a great Truth , though he hath given himself and Party a desperate blow by it , which he can be never able to recover , ( and I Challenge W.P. to do it , without shameful begging the QVESTION , or having others to believe it on his bare word , if he can . ) For , if when they pretended so high , and to such strange Power among them , and had such mighty motions , they themselves now confess , that notwithstanding all that , ( and all their Preaching up , and confidence of the Light , Spirit , and Voice of the Lord WITHIN them , ) they yet had not a distinct discerning of the Lord's Voyce , not their minds brought into so much as a CAPACITY to discern it , how can they be MORE confident , and Infallibly evidence they are MORE certain of it now ? Or , why may they not be mistaken , and mistake the Lords Voyce now , as well as fifteen or sixteen Years ago , or not well discern which , or what is the Lords Voyce ? And why may they not change again and again , fifteen or sixteen Years hence , and say then they had not before a distinct discerning of the Lords Voyce ? If the Quakers say , but they know now they have it , so the Quakers formerly said , they knew it , they felt it , they handled it , they witnessed it IN themselves , and yet the Quakers now say , they were so far out then , as not to have a distinct discerning of the Lords Voyce . And so then may the Quakers now , for all their pretences and confident talk . Let my Reader take Notice , and they Consider , what 's become of their Quaking and Shaking , their mighty Motions , and pretended Voyce of the Lord within . And I think this may be enough for Quaking , to shew that the present Quakers I deal withall have little more than the Name now , in this particular . Sic mutantur . SECT . II. The Quakers Quibbles about Set-days and Set-places . Sect. 1. PRinciples of Truth , p. 42. per E. Burroughs , We believe his True Worship required and accepted of him , is not by the Tradition of Men , in outward Observances , or Set-days , or Places , but he is Worshipped onely in Spirit and Truth without respect of Times , Places , or Things . And this was ( one while ) the Quak●rs general Doctrine , that they should not run , nor be enjoyned by others to come to Meetings , but as they ●re moved of the Lord thereto , and that without that , it was but Will-Worship : See Principles of Truth , p. 24. & 51. Every Man ought to be left FREE as the Lord shall perswade his own mind in doing , or leaving undone this or th' other practice in Religion . Sect. 2. But to whirle about , and run round again , at other times , P. Livingstone can tell you , Idem , p. 5. It is a dark Spirit , clearness and FREEDOM is not in it , but it hath , and doth lead into Bondage . — And here Satan by Transforming himself hath obtained his End and purpose in such , for which cause he first Transformed himself in the matter of the Hat and the Hand , and not coming to Meetings , until they should be moved of the Lord , untill at last he obtained his end to get them not to come at all , and not to let them rest therewith , but also made , and makes them believe lyes ; as namely , that they be moved of the Lord to cry against Meetings , &c. And we are certain enough what that Spirit leads to in the end ( for all its fair appearance ) if it be followed to the end , &c. And who now Observes more their set-days and hours too , their first , and fourth days meeting , and set places Built on purpose ( a● the Bull and Mouth , and Grace-Church-street , &c. ) than the Quakers ? And thus are they run into Forms as those whom they once condemned , and now deny that FREEDOM they once allowed and cry'd for ; which is all but a Quibble . SECT . III. The Quakers Quibbles about Forms and the Church . Sect. 1. THat the Quakers at first did cry out against Forms and several external Ordinances , and all Formality in Divine Worship and the Church of God , is so generally known , that I think I need not trouble the Reader with Instances ; yet if any should doubt it , see G. Fox Mystery , p. 65. Paul brought the Saints off from things that a●● seen , and water is seen , and it's Baptism : Here is a few words will serve for all . Sect. 2. But then to go round again , when others of the Quakers Object against them , That taking off the Hat in prayer , and taking by the Hand are but Formal , and that by setting up this , Friends were setters up of Forms ; now , hear the Quakers Quibble , P. Livingstone , Idem , p. 12. in Answer to that Objection . The Form of Truth we own ; that which Truth appears in , that is the Form of Truth : Friends do not chuse a Form for the Truth , but Truth chuseth its own Form , and moveth in it at its pleasure . Oh Excellent ! then it seems taking off the Hat , or taking by the Hand is the Form among the Quakers that Truth appears in , and this is the Form that the Truth chuseth for its own ; Oh rare Formalists ! Sect. 3. Then P. Livingstone goes on , p. 13. And we know those that do the contrary , pretend what they will , it is by and in that Spirit which is opposite , and opposes the Truth of God , and its Children , and we know if they were lead by the Spirit of the Body [ id est , the Church ] they would be led to the same things it leads the Body , and acts the Body in , for the Body is one , though many Members , it being guided by one Life , and they agree in these things , and one stands not with the Hat on , and another with it off ; nor one doth not give the Hand , and another refuseth , which is a contradiction ; but we see further into the thing than the Hat and Hand . We see and know the Spirit of Enmity in the ground — and it is truly testified against , to be that Spirit of ANTI-CHRIST , against CHRIST : and the Spirit of Truth in the Body [ i.e. the Church ] beareth this Testimony against that Spirit and them Acted by it : Oh , what Rents and Divisions this evil Spirit hath made ! How many poor simple Hearts have been drawn aside by it ! So far he . Now , is not this exactly like the Doctrine and Practice of the Church of Rome ? Nay , the Quakers are got so far , as to say , Friends that stand in the Life , and are the Body , know that there is not , NOR CANNOT BE preservation out of the Body [ meaning the Body of Quakers ] For they that are out of the Body , are out of the Faith , ●●d are not of the Body , Pat. Livingstone , p. 20. Just as the Papists say there 's no Salvation out of the Church : Yea , and more ; that they must believe as the True Church ( meaning the Quakers Church ) Believes , or else positively they cannot be saved : For these are his express words , viz. I bear my testimony for that People , in scorn called Quakers , that the Lord hath chosen them a peculiar People , above all People upon the Earth , and we are to turn to no other People , &c. And they that believe not as the true Church-Believes CANNOT BE SAVED — But this we know of an INFALLIBLE certainty , that WE being faithful in the Truth , those that are gone from us are of another Spirit , and not of the Faith of the True Church . P. Livingstone , p. 22 , & 23. ( this is like the very top-stone of Popery ) and that in such low and external things too , as in giving the Hand , pulling off the Hat , and coming to Quakers Meetings . Sect. 4. Is not the Hat and the Hand SEEN ? Is it not a strange thing , that giving the Hand , and pulling off the Hat should be Ordinances to CONTINVE in the True Church , but not Water-Baptism , and Material Bread and Wine in the Lords Supper ? Note , Readers , I pray you ; Weigh this seriously , and what their Reasons can be , Remembring G. Fox's words at the beginning of this Section . Consider well whither it is these Quakers are a Running , laying such a Necessity on such a Ceremonial and external thing , as giving the Hand ; do they not in this of the Hand exceed the Church of Rome ▪ in her impositions ? I have Transcribed the more of this , that you may see how far the Quakers themselves are now come to own Forms , and disown the Spirit in particular Persons , and are already got to the Spirit IN the Body , yea , and OF the Body of Friends : that is ▪ the Spirit in and of their Church : Like as the Pope and Church of Rome ; and thus you may understand how the Quakers are , and have been Divided amongst themselves , one pretending the Spirit , and others pretending the Spirit , one against another , and that which one calls the Spirit of Christ , the other Quaker calls the Spirit of Antichrist , and that which one calls Light , the other says is Darkness , and if they will continue running round , and groping up and down in that Darkness , notwithstanding this Faithful Admonition , so let them . SECT . IV. The Quakers Quibbles about Flesh being Silent . Sect. 1. IT is as generally known that this was at first the Quakers Doctrine , and they used to cry out to others , Cease from Man , let all Flesh be silent , and so would stop the Mouths of other Men and Teachers , and draw People away from hearing of others . Sect. 2. But now , when other Quakers tell them so , then hear how they wheel about again , P. Livingstone , Idem p. 14.15 . You that cry , let all Flesh be silent , and yet not silent in your selves , you but mock God , and belie him , he hath not bid you cry so , — For it is seen in the eternal Light , that such would have the Truth silenc'd and its Children . And the Prophet said , Cease from Man , but HE taught , or the LIFE in and by him taught , but all teaching that comes not from the LIFE , are M●n's teachings , that is , the Flesh to be silenced : But such as be taught of the Lord , and sent of him to Publish his Truth , this is not to be denyed , nor is denyed by them that know its teachings in themselves , &c. Oh Excellent Quibbling , but pitiful begging of the Question , for they still take that for granted , which never was , nor can be granted them , That that onely in them is the Life and the Lords teaching which they call so , MORE than that in others , who oppose them . Sest . 3. Thus you see , one while they would have us cease from Man , another while ( to go round ) we must not cease from Man , nor the Light and Life in the Man ; another while to face about again and meet in the middle , we must cease from the Man , but not from the Light in the Man ; and one while the pretended Light in the Man is Light , and at other times 't is Darkness , and all this as they ( the Men , or the Life in them ) fancy and please , when they please , how they please , or what they please . One while all Flesh and Man is to be silent , but another time ( to dance the Rounds ) the Prophet ( who was a Man , and Flesh ) Taught , or the Life in and by him Taught , one or the other , or both ; or he knows not whether : Oh! the profound Riddles and Quibbles of these Quakers ! Sect. 4. For that 's a great Mystery and a Riddle , that deserves unriddling upon all Occasions , that when a Quaker says , I say this , or , I write this , or , I Act this , or , I thought good , or , I thought meet , as G.W. said ( to write an Answer to the Quakers Quibbles , ) whether he means the Man George , or the Light within , or both , or neither ? And pray George be so favourable to thy Countrey-men and me , as to let us know when it is the Light in thee or the Flesh , that speaks or writes , when thou ( or any for thee ) writes again . SECT . V. The Quakers Quibbles about the Anoyntting . Sect. 1. THat the Quakers one while did most frequently cry out , the Anoynting which they had Received , abideth in them , and they need not that any Man teach them , but as the same Anoynting teaches them all things , &c. I think themselves should not have Confidence ( though they have abundantly too much ) to deny ; and that their Doctrine was at first : This is the New Covenant , I will put my Laws into their Minds , and Write them in their Hearts , and they shall not teach every Man his Neighbour , and every Man his Brother , &c. G. Fox Testimony of the True Light , p. 37. Sect. 2. But now when others among themselves have Objected this very thing against them , then hear the Quibble , P. Livingstone , p. 15. Here indeed is a subtle Bait of the Enemy to stop Truths Testimony through them that are called to bear it , and to Publish it to the Nations : And ye need that no Man Teach you , but as the same Anoynting Teacheth you ●● all things , say they ; But why did HE Teach both by writing and speaking , who spake or wr●t these words ? Or rather , was it not the Anoynting in him that wrote unto them , That they needed not the Teaching of Man , who was meerly Man , and was not come to the Anoynting in themselves , but this forbids not the Anoynting to Edifie the Church — as it doth move through either Son or Daughter , and this is not Man's Teaching , but this is the Anoynting which is Truth . Sect. 3. Excellent still , the Old begging of the Question , and Quibbling ; it is when they please , not the Man , but the Anoynting in the Man , that writes and Teaches , and when they ( Pope-like ) please ; it is not the Anoynting in the Man , but the Man that Teaches or Writes : But how came this Foxonian Quaker to have this Popedome and Infallibility of Judgment MORE than these other Quakers ? Who gave it him ? hath he not arrogantly assumed it to himself ? most certainly . No Quaker can justly blame me , if I require satisfaction of them in this particular , or for asking them ( to shew them how they run round in a Circle ) about the Voyce of God , the Word , or Anoynting , and Light within them ; one of their own Teachers and Learned Men having not thought it uncivil , nor abusive to ask and publish the like concerning the SACRED SCRIPTVRES ( except they will be so hardy as to say now , what , or to the like purpose , some of them heretofore have not much stuck at , That the Voyce of God and the Light IN THEMSELVES is better , higher , and more certain and infallible than the Voyce of God , and Light in the HOLY SCRIPTVRES , and is not to be Questioned by others , though the Holy Scriptures may be Questioned by the Quakers or Papists ; ) you will find it in Sam. Fishers Addit . Appendix , p. 21. an Eminent approved Quaker , whence I take it , mutatis mutandis , viz. Tell us then , how may it be known assuredly , uncontroulably , infallibly ( that the Scriptures , says Fisher , but say I ) that that which the Quakers call the Word , Anointing Voyce of the Lord WITHIN THEM , is at all of GOD , and not a cunning devised FABLE , or their own Invention and Phantasie ? If they tell us by the Testimony of the Spirit WITHIN which ( say they ) is onely All-sufficient to that purpose , and they have the Witness in themselves , the Spirit bearing Witness with their Spirits ; Then we ask them , But by what shall we Try , and find assuredly , and infallibly , that that Testimony and Spirit is of GOD , and not a false one , that tells us ( that the Scripture is of God , boldly , says Fisher , but say I , ) that that Light , Word anoynting , or Voyce WITHIN , is of GOD ? Sect. 4. I request and desire Geo. Whitehead , W● Pen , either , or both , or any Quaker in England to give a Visible manifestation , or a Direct and demonstrative Answer to this , without going round in a Circle , or basely begging the Question : If not , for shame let them be silent , and Learn to be humble , and not arrogantly Contradict and Condemn OTHERS , if they cannot say , and evidently produce MORE for themselves in their Pretensions ▪ and Motions , than OTHERS do or can , that make no such pretensions ; For it is not enough to say , that John Witnessed the Anoynting , or the Church then enjoyed it , or the Apostles had it , for that John and the Apostles and Churches then had such an Vnction as impowered them with many and several Excellent SPIRITVAL Gifts ; as the Gifts of Healing , the Gift of Tongues , the Gift of Prophecy by Imposition of Hands of the Presbytery , &c. which they have not now , for all their High pretences , nor never had , that I have heard ; and besides , to say , that John and the Saints , and Churches of Old witnessed it , does no more prove that the Quakers now have it , than that the Baptists , or some other Churches ( which they disown ) now have it . This then is so far from a Proof , that it is but a silly Quibble . Sect. 5. But the Anoynting that the Lord JESVS and the True Apostles had , was with ●he Holy Ghost indeed , and with Power ( and not the Word or Name onely of it , which is all that yet appears the Quakers have ) enabling them to go about doing good , and HEALING ALL that were oppressed of the Devil , and curing their BODILY Distempers , Acts 10.38 . How God Annoynted JESVS of NAZARETH with the Holy Ghost , and with Power , who went ●●out doing good , HEALING all that were Oppressed of the Devil , for God was with him , and WE are Winesses , &c. But the Quakers , and the Christ within them , doe onely ( for ought yet appears to others ) go about with words and talking , but demonstrate no more Power , than the Papists when they Convince , and bring over some Persons to them by their Words and Doctrine , as sometimes the Jesuites , and sometimes the Quakers , both do , according to the Ignorance , or weak Brains , or the private Ends and Interest that the Persons they meet withal , may happen to have . Simplicibus facilè Imponitur . SECT . VI. The Quakers Quibbles about the Spirit . Sect. 1. THat no Persons in England have talked more of the Spirit , and pretended more to the Spirit , nor cryed out the Spirit , the Spirit , so much as the Quakers did at first : I suppose none that knew them , will , or can deny ; and that they blamed others for calling it a private Spirit , or whining Spirit , and for saying that it lead them into private places , and to creep into Houses . Sect. 2. And yet behold the very same Accusation have some of the Quakers took up now against others of them . See P. Livingstone , Idem p. 19. Now , you that are led by that private Spirit , though you pretend it to be Vniversal , you draw into secret places , — for you absent the Meetings of Gods People ; Mark ( says he ) here is a deceitful whining Spirit , that would be counted a Sufferer , and would be counted Innocent and meek , but this is truly seen not to be the Spirit of Sion's Children . ] And what was all this for , think you ? but because one that was of the Quakers , writ thus , Tell the Daughter of Zion , behold thy King cometh unto thee , meek , and sitting upon an Ass , though it be smitten on all hands , yet it bears it all , and suffers it , although it be smitten in the House of its Friends yet grudgeth not , nor repineth . ] And this is the Language , that P. Livingstone crys out , mark , here is a deceitful-whining-Spirit . Sect. 3. So that it appears they have Learnt of their Adversaries ; the word Whyning , and Whin●ing-Spirit , and thus now the Quakers cry out ( as their Adversaries did formerly against them ) a-private-whyning-Spirit , instead of the pure-living-powerful-Spirit of the Lord. Here you may Observe , That if others ( though Quakers , that own the same Principle with themselves , of the Light within ) pretend to the Spirit , or talk of the Spirit , Oh , then it is a dark-Spirit , a whining-Spirit , private-Spirit , the Spirit of Antichrist : and the Spirit of the Body onely is the Spirit of Christ : See more of this in the third and fifth particular before , and thus still , stat pro ratione voluntas , & ipse dixit is all , and must be sufficient to others , or nothing , for ought yet appears . SECT . VII . The Quakers Quibbles and Hypocrisie in their Doctrine about Scholar-ship and Languages , with reference to their own Practices . Sect. 1. ONE while this is the Quakers Doctrine , that is , when they Cry out against Learning in others , ( because they would have all People come to be so silly and Ignorant as to believe them , or not to have Learning enough to Confute them ) then thus ; The Word , which is the Original , which the Apostles Preached amongst the Hebrews , and Greeks , which was before Tongues were , and your Original ; which will break all your Tongues and Original to pieces ; Pilate had your Original of Hebrew , Greek , and Latine , who Crucified Christ : He that draws back into many Languages , as into Hebrew and Greek● , draws back into the Naturals , and so draws into Confusion . But the Ministers of God , who Preach the Everlasting Gospel , which endures for ever , draw up into one Language , and so the Priests and all that Trade into Natural Languages , we VTTERLY deny . A Paper sent forth into the World , p. 3. ] and much to this effect we had formerly from them , That the Light within is able ALONE to reveal to them the Truth , and maintain it against all others , and that they receive their Doctrine by Inward Revelations , and not by any outward means , &c. Sect. 2. Another while ( that is , when the Quakers are either to maintain their own Principles , or confute others ) then to go round again , It is Lawful and good to draw back into many Natural Languages , as into Hebrew and Greek , yea , and Latine too , as G. W's Practice evinces in his Introduction to his Divinity of Christ , ( though it is probable He understands as little Hebrew as G. Fox doth Greek ; ) and many more Natural Languages you have ( and more abundantly ) in W. P's . Vindication of G. Foxes Falsities , and Nonsence . See here according to their own Verdict , they are drawing back into the NATVRALS , and so draw into CONFVSION , and are not the Ministers of God , who draw up into ONE Language , for they now draw down into MANY Languages , and therefore are utterly to be denyed , if Quakers themselves may be Credited . Sect. 3. And not onely so , but also in their Practice it is to be further Observed , that when any Publique Dispute is with them appointed , notwithstanding all their Talk and Pretences to others of Immediate Revelation , and Divine Inspiration , and the sufficiency ALONE of the Light within , yet they dare not trust to that , but commonly they will have one , if not two that are Scholars , and that have been bred Scholars at our Schools ; as Sam. Fisher formerly , and G. Keith , or W. Pen , of late Years , and the like ; the Discourse or Dispute is for the most part managed by them , and most commonly lyes wholly upon such , whereas if their Light within every one was ALONE sufficient , and they had it Divinely Inspired into them by the Spirit at that very Instant , then any other of the Quakers might be as able to manage such Disputes as them that have been brought up Scholars at our Schools . But alas , when some such come to the business , we have seen what pitiful work they have made on 't , and how quickly they have been Non-plust for want of some of those School-distinctions , that G.K. and W.P. can furnish them withal , better than all the Light G.F. their great Prophet appears as yet to have . Sect. 4. Yet to turn half round back again , see G. Foxes words , Testimony of the True Light , at the beginning of p. 42. It 's too long and too full of Tautologies here to Transcribe . But to dance the rounds , and face quite about , once more ; at last G. Keith can tell us , and reprove Jer. Ives for Transgressing the Just Laws of Dispute , by an Error called in the Schools 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a Transition from one kind of Matter to another . Did G. Keith speak and know this Just Law by immediate Inspiration at that instant , since he assured us all along in that dispute he found the Presence of God assisting him ? Or had not he before learnt it at the Schools ? I Challenge them to nominate but ONE Quaker ( amongst them all ) that could have made that Answer to detect Jeremy , by the ALONE sufficiency and Revelation of the Light within at that very Instant , that had not first heard of it from some others , or learnt it at School ; I press and urge any Quaker in England to Answer , and Witness this in plainness , if he can : But alas , poor Men ! if they would be ingenuously honest , they must grant they cannot , and that G. Keith did not there ( and therein ) speak ANY MORE by immediate Revelation than others , and so was not Infallible in all he said . Sect. 6. However now it seems ou● ●chools have the Just Laws of Dispute amongst them , by a Present Quakers Confession ; thank thee , George , thanks kindly . It is hoped W. Pen , and thee Geo. may come to bring the silly Quakers ( off from some of their Old Fancies ) to own more of ours , and amongst us e're long , though to give you your due , you are come a pretty way already , and fall in softly by degrees , even whilst you pretend the Contrary , that so the People might not take too much notice of it . Sect. 7. And some do Observe , that notwithstanding all the Quakers former hideous Out-crys against Schools of Learning , Vniversities , against Hamane Learning , Philosophy , Logick , Scholastical Divinity and Doctrines ; yet now notable Mr. Pen is framing and setting up , both a Formal , Scholastical , and Philosophical Divinity amongst the Quakers ( whether they mind it , understand it , or can see through it or no ) in his writings and Vindications of Resolves , Decrees , Rules , or Aphorisms , Bodies , or Systems of Principles and Doctrines , with Genus , Species , Proprium , accidens , & differentia in Communem , propriam , maximè propriam , formalitèr , simplicitèr , Relativè , Secundùm se & secùndum quid , or the like ; as Substance , Accidents , Essential , and Descriptive , Simply ▪ and Relatively , most proper , proper , and less proper , abstract and Concrete , and much more of the same Nature , that Great Geo. Fox so long since Challenged the Scholars and Doctors of Europe about , inquiring what was their Root , Ground , and Derivation , and if they were not all begot in the Fall , or sprang up out of Babel . See G. Foxes Primmer for the Scholars and Doctors of Europe ; 't is a pretty piece indeed ! 't is conceived worthy of Mr. Penn's Study , and I cannot think of any Body that would be so fit for the purpose , as he , to satisfie his great Prophet , G. Fox , in most of those vain , silly , and Ridiculous Questions about Words and Terms in the Schools , the Ground , the Root , the Derivation , &c. of them : Why may it not be as good and profitable employ for W. Pen to Answer them , as for G. Fox to Ask them , Write , and Publish them ? I should think it the more profitable of the two ; For now the Questions being without Answers , G. Foxes Primmer is of little Value , and less Use , except onely to shew the grand Prophets Whimsies , and Wind-mill in his Brain , or to Teach his silly Disciples the Art of Tautologizing . Thus you may see Tempora mutantur , and the Quakers run the Rounds ; but yet have a care that you do not imagine but that these their Teachers and Leaders are immediately inspired , and Infallible still , I warrant you , as much as ever they were , but not one whit , MORE than before , or since they became Quakers . Sic Diruit , aedificat , mu● at Quadrata Rotundis . SECT . VIII . The Quakers Quibbles and Hypocrisie in their Doctrine about Punching People , and Haling them out of Assemblies , with reference to their own Practices now . Sect. 1. ONE while ( that was , when others thrust and punch'd , and pulled the Quakers out of their Assemblies , Meetings , or Synagogues , for coming in and disturbing them , then ) the Quakers Doctrine was such as this — They profess Moses , Christ , and the Apostles words , but see not the fulfilling of Moses , and the Prophets , nor Christ's words , and Apostles words , such as be out of the Light , that believes [ that 's G. Foxes English very frequent ] not in it , these are now Haling out of the Synagogues , Prisoning , and Beating , and Persecuting , that believe not in the Light that enlightens every Man that cometh into the World , as the Jews did out of their Temple , &c. G. Fox Testimony of the True Light , p. 46. Come , let us Reason , had not many the Scriptures , yet Haled out of the Synagogues , what think you of them ? — And your Teachers have got into the chiefest place in the Synagogues , in the PHARISEES steps , and cry , take them away that are moved to come into your Synagogues to speak , so many are knock'd down , haled out of the Synagogues , and before Magistrates , and cast into Prison ; what do you differ herein from the Jews which did not believe in the Light ? G.F. professors Catechism , p. 6. The Spirit of Christ doth not lead to hale out of the Synagogues , to buffet , to pluck off the Hair of the Head , to draw the blood of People in the Synagogues , &c. Idom p. 10. See more , p. 11. Did you ever Read of any of the Saints , the Christians , did use your Weapons , or go in your steps ? You have brought your Names upon Record , and make them to stink . ] But now if any Man come among them while they are speaking , or when they have done , and be moved to speak any thing ; them of their Church , the Rude Multitude fall upon him , with Staves , Fists , and Punches , &c. A Paper sent forth into the World , p. 6. Here they shew themselves to be no Ministers of Christ , and their Assemblies to be no Church , but in Confusion , Idem . Sect. 2. But now to run round again , ( That is , when some Persons come into the Quakers Synagogues or Assemblies , while they are speaking , or when they have done , and be moved to speak any thing , then ) they will not onely tell the People , and make their silly Disciples believe , That the Man is a Drunkard , but if they are questioned to prove it , Oh , they meant onely Spiritually Drunk , ( a pretty Quibble by the way ) nor onely basely insinuate , that he is a Distempered , and Distracted Person ▪ but a Cain , or a Devil ( as some said of John ) but that 's not all ; For to tack quite about : If one comes into their Assemblies , and be moved to speak any thing , though asserted , as in the Na●● of the Lord , yet if it does not please them , the Common Practice in their Meetings is now , to hunch and punch the poor Man ; nay , I have seen them Actually lay violent Hands on some , and thrust , and pull , and hale them out of their Meeting ; once at the Bull and Mouth , and once in their Meeting near Wheeler-street , insomuch that I was astonish'd at it , and could not have then believed that any such thing should be acted , or Suffered in a Quakers Meeting , had not my Eyes beheld it , ( they having so much cry'd out against it , and been pull'd out themselves in other Meetings ) and yet I did not hear so much as one Quaker speak against it , or oppose it , when they punch'd and thrust , and laid violent Hands on the Man , to hale him out of their Meeting in such a manner . Sect. 3. How they struck and abused another Man in their Meeting , you may take the Account in Quakerism i● Paganism , p. 67 , &c. Sect. 4. Nay , no longer ago than in the Moneth of December last , a Civil Person that came to London out of the Countrey , and moved as ( he said ) he hoped from the Lord to speak to them , and opposing G.VV. in their Meeting , as I am Informed , after G. had askt him two Questions , and he had Answered them directly , and by consent the Person was to ask G.VV. as many , which he did , but G. finding himself , as it seems , puzled by one of them , about Circumcision of the Heart , the Person was so far from getting a direct Answer , that he onely got his SHINS BROKEN directly there amongst them . I hope the Quakers will not have the Confidence to deny this , ( but I am not sure , considering that sometimes they have denyed things as plain ) The Person ( it seems ) p●lling down his stocking● and shewing his plaistered shins to them in another of the Quakers Meetings before many witnesses ; and 't is said he was hunch'd and punch'd so , that he was black and blew in several places on his Body ; and thus the poor honest Man was fain to return home with BROKEN SHINS : Oh , meek , mild Quakerism ! Your great Prophet hath Condemned you all , saying , That such things manifest ye are out of the Light and Life of Saints , & of true Christians and that you differ not from the Jews , and are none of the Ministers of CHRIST , nor the TRVE Church . Sect. 5. And 't is no wonder they do not whip , or Imprison People , because they have not power to do it , but you see that as far as they can and dare , and have power , they do , and suffer to be done in their Assemblies : And so it cannot be doubted , but that those which will do so much , would do more , if they had power enough ; but Blessed be the Lord they have it not . Besides , I must tell you in this very P●actice of theirs they use sometimes a kind of a Quibbling way : For many times they will not down right strike a Man , but hunch him , & punch him , and thrust him , and crowd him , till the Man is almost stisted amongst them ; and so in a secret way sometimes almost kill him , by forcing his Breath out , because it should not be taken Notice of by others ; though twice ( as I said before , ) I have seen violent Hands laid on persons in their Meetings ; Oh strange turning ! Oh Hypocritical and horrid Change ! Sect. 6. One Francis Chadwel , who I understand Lives in London , hath felt , and Experienced this in the Quakers Meetings , not onely once , or twice , but nearer Twenty times , and h●th , and will Witness it , as I am very well informed , but I would not have publisht it , but that I find Mr. Pen himself ( in his own book , truly styled Judas and the Jews , p. 38. ) cannot deny it , but says , He is a man of no Conscience nor Credit , in what Relates to them , and that he hath known him grosly Guilty , both of Lying and Tipling , his aim hath been to raise up an envious and scoffing Spirit against them , &c. and what then ? what of all that ? supposing all this w●s true , Must you Quakers lay violent Hands on him , and be your own Judges and Ju●y , and Hangman too , to Execute Justice on him ? Oh rare ! is it possible , that this is Quakerism , or these Quakers , that houted and bawled , and disturbed others in their Meetings ? and if some did but thrust and shove them out , though by Authority , and the Magistrates Order , Oh then , Persecution , Persecution , wicked Jews , &c. Do ye Quakers not demonstrate your selves now to be the same in the Ground ? Here then it is evident by Experience , that there is not onely a Persecuting Spirit , but a Persecuting Hand amongst the Quak●rs ; and as for a Persecuting Pen and Tongue , there 's none goes beyond them , if any to be compared with them for Billingsgate-Rhetorick , Reviling , Railing , and Damning their betters to the pit of Hell : Are these the men that once pretended to turn the other Cheek to the Smiter , and now do they smite others , because their Enemies , as they suppose ? Sect. 7. I cannot but Observe how SLILY Mr. Pen raises an evil Report of Mr. Chadwel , saying , He is a Man of no Conscience nor Credit in what Relates to them , i. e. the Quakers ; he did not dare say , he was a man of no Conscience nor Credit in what R●●●ted to others , because then he might have been dis●●●ved , but onely to the Quakers , they themselves being Judges also ; when as , you must note , if a man does but oppose the Quakers , that That is enough to make him a man of no Conscience or Credit with them ; Oh neat Quibble ! pray let the Quakers name you ONE man that does oppose and Contradict them , that they will say is a Man of Good Conscience and Credit in what Relates to them . Who is so silly , that cannot see the baseness of such slie and Quibbling Suggestions ? Pray before I leave this Section , hear another of them , about the same Person , p , 39 : Mr. Pen says , he had as good as confest , that he had been Hired by some Professors to disturb us , who sees not the Quibble in the words as good as confest ? That is , in plain English , he did not tell him so ; neither is it at all likely ; but well , on the contrary , I have heard , that some Years since a Quaker would have Hired him to have let them alone ; the Story runs thus : He owed a Quaker a certain sum of money , and the Quaker would have forgave it him , and writ , or would write him an Acquittance , as Received so much money of him , provided he would not disturb them any more ; Mr. Chadwel Answered him to this purpose , that if he writ he had Received so much money , when indeed he Received none , that would be a Lye , and he would not consent to it . So here it seems Fran. Chadwel had more Conscience than the Quaker . Sect. 8. And besides , the Truth of their abusing , punching , haling , thrusting and throwing the said F. Chadwel out of their meetings by main Force , depends not upon his Testimony alone , but there are some scores that have been Eye-witnesses of it , that can testifie it . And if the Quakers can Justifie doing thus to one , whom themselves shall alone Judge to be a man of no Conscience nor Credit , then they may do it to another and another , and to Twenty , on the same Ground , and at last , to whom they please , as far as they dare : And ▪ to be sure none shall want their Judgment and Censure of being Forgers , Lyars , or Tiplers , Men of no Credit nor Conscience , if they do but oppose them : And so at present I 'le leave them , with their Apostatized Persecuting Spirit , as to this particular ; wishing they may for the Future learn more Honesty , Humility , and the Royal Law of Charity , which never fails , and that they may put on Bowels of Compassion , and Lowlyness of mind to others ; for if they shew Love to their own Friends onely , what are they better than the Publicans ? Don't they do so ? SECT . IX . The Quakers Quibbles and Hypocrisie in their former Practice of Disturbing of Ministers in Parish-Churches , with reference to their Practice now . Sect. 1. THat it was the Common Practice of the Quakers for many Years , to pretend They were sent and moved by the Lord , and by the Spirit to come into the Parish-Assemblies to oppose the Ministers , and accordingly did commonly every Moneth , and sometimes oftner , come in and disturb the Ministers and Congregations , with their Messages , Visions , and Revelations from the Lord , as they said , is so generally known , that I need bring no Instances , and I think they will not deny it . Sect. 2. But now since His MAJESTIES Happy Restauration and Government , I do not find but those ORACLES are generally ceased , or at least , for the most part ; and now their Common Practice therein is altered , which shews either their great Hypocrisie now they think they cannot do it but with more danger , or that these motions were only pretences , and so very unreasonable , as most likely they were ; or if true motions from the Lord , then the Quakers have rarely , if any , of those true motions from the Lord now among them , nor do grow in MORE Experience of such Revelations , but are withered : Where 's G. Foxe's Lambs of CHRIST , which have been sent forth to reprove Sin in the Gates of Cities , Markets , High-ways , and Countries ? [ What , are they all asleep ? ] G. F's Professors Cat. p. 22. What , is there no Sin to be Reproved within the Gates now , as then ? What , no such Messages from the Lord now ? Oh Hypocrisie ! Sect. 3. By this it would appear , that Muggleton is the best Prophet of the two , and that his Sentence and Curse hath taken hold of the Quakers , viz. Because I [ saith Muggleton ] have passed Sentence upon the Quakers , they shall never grow to have more Experience in Vision and Revelation , but shall wither . See G. Fox his Answer to Muggleton's Book , The Quakers Neck broken , p. 11. SECT . X. The Quakers Quibbles about the Holy Scriptures . Sect. 1. THis is a very weighty Point , Dear Friends and Countrey-men , consider it well ; you shall first hear what G.W. himself , and three more Quakers say ( in Answer to one Sampson Townsend , a Minister in Norwich ) in their Book , Entituled , ISHMAEL , &c. The Ministers Propositions ( which he and they opposed ) were these two . 1. That the Scriptures , contained in the OLD and NEW Testament ( Commonly called the BIBLE ) is the Revealed Will and Word of God. 2. That the Scripture , which is the Word of God , is the onely Foundation of our Faith , and onely Rule for our Obedience . Now , in their Answer to thi● , I onely desire the Reader to Observe the several Epithetes G.W. gives to the SCRIPTVRE , viz. that commonly called the Bible , which ONELY the Minister affirmed to be the Foundation and Rule of our Faith and Obedience , as above ; THIS G.W. calls NATVRAL and CARNAL , p. 3. Obscure something without them , p. 3. Bids him prove that ever it was called by the Saints a Written Word of God , and that with these thy Lyes thou hast deceived the Blind , p. 4. That which is Written is the Letter , which is DEATH and KILLETH , p. 10. Thou that sayest , that the Scriptures Reveal God , thou art a Lyar , p. 10. Where did ever any of the Holy men of God , say , that the Scripture Converts the Soul , or makes Laws for mens thoughts , p. 11. He calls it a Lye , to say the Scripture is the means by which Faith is wrought , p. 11. Now , that which Matthew , Mark , Luke , and John wrote of Christ could not give Life , for that is called a Declaration of those things which was freely delivered among them , Luke 1.1 . And that thou callest the Word , which is DEATH and KILLETH , as thou mayst Read , 2 C. 3. p. 9. ] And that which the Minister then called the WORD ( as G.W. himself , and the Quakers tell you , just before in the same page ) was the sayings , and doings of our SAVIOVR , which are frequently Recorded in the NEW TESTAMENT , and hence IT [ the New Testament ] is called the word of CHRIST , says he ; and in the Quakers Answer to this , G.W. and they , tell the Minister [ and that thou callest the WORD , WHICH IS DEATH , and KILLETH ] Oh horrid ! abominable and wicked ! besides the falshood of it , how near to Blasphemy is it ? Not to say much to his words in p. 5. where he maketh himself a Judge , for others to be Judged by , viz. [ Let all that read these Scriptures Judge thee BY ME to be a Lyar. ] Nor to their words in the Title Page , where they say [ these their Words or Writings ] were GIVEN FORTH from the SPIRIT of the Lord IN VS . ] You may enough ghess at it , and the Impudence of it , your selves . Will not the Impartial Reader now think this Book ISHMAEL a Rare Piece for the bigness of it , for 't is but about three sheets ? I must needs think that many Sober Readers that shall see , and duly Consider these Words , will almost conclude it incredible , it being so abominably gross , but that they may see it with their own Eyes , in the Quakers own Book , if they dare give Credit to their Eye-sight , more than to the Quakers false Tongues ; and therefore I refer all such to the Book it self , for better Satisfaction . Sect. 2. Sam. Fisher , in his Addit . Appendix , p. 21. Speaking of the Holy Scriptures , says , Which Transcriptions and Translations , were they never so certain and entire by Answering to the first Original Copies , yet are NOT CAPABLE to be ( to all Men ) ANY OTHER than a Lesbian Rule , or NOSE OF WAX ; Forasmuch as even where Men have them ( as half the World has not ) they are lyable to be wrested and Actually twisted Twenty ways by Interpreters , whose Expositions , Sences , and meanings , ( which are as many ▪ and various , as the Thoughts , Conceits , and Inventions of men are , who Comment upon them ) must be the Rule to such as can Read them neither in Hebrew and Greek , nor in their own Mother-Tongues neither . And further , the said Sam. Fisher , in the same page tells us , that He and the Quakers have put it to the Question , How it may be known assuredly , uncontroulably , infallibly , that the Scripture is at ALL of God , and not a cunningly DEVISED FABLE and INVENTION of Men ? Do ye not think now , Impartial Readers , that the Quakers are High Honourers of Holy Scripture to use such Terms and Language , in Querying about it , as a cunningly devised FABLE and INVENTION of Men ? And in his very next words he gives us and the World to understand , that the Church and Clergy of England do but go-round ( or Dance in a Circle ) when they tell the Quakers and us , That the Scripture may be known to be of God by the Testimony of the Spirit , and that we may try , and find assuredly that Spirit to be of God by the Scripture . Sect. 3. Ed. Burrough● , p. 834. The ONELY perfect Rule of ●onscience , in the Exercise to God , is the SPIRIT of Christ , and not any other thing . G.W. Again ( the Question being put [ Do you esteem of your speakings to be of as great Authority as any Chapter in the Bible ? ) makes this Answer , in his Serious Apol. p. 49. viz. That which was spoken from the Spirit of Truth in ANY , ●s of AS GREAT Authority as the Scriptures and Chapters are , and GREATER , &c. Sect. 4. W. Pen also , ( that he for his Worthiness and sincerity may not Complain as left out ) shall give in his Verdict , in his Spirit of Truth Vindicated , p. 38. Thus , the Scripture is much like the shadow of the True Rule , &c. ] Now , all men know a shadow is an empty and vain thing , and the most uncertain thing in the World ; sometimes shorter , and sometimes much longer than the Substance it self . Sect. 5. But now to wheel about , and run round again , though one would think no man possibly ( that pretends to Honesty or common Reputation ) could either have the Face or Confidence to do it , having so rivetted and fixed the Contrary in Print , as above ; nay , some cannot believe that any Ordinary Romancer would Publish it in Print with such a Stupendious confidence as the Quakers have lately done ) viz. G.W. Quakers Plainness , p. 70 , 71. Nor did we EVER prefer our Books before the Bible , as unjustly we are charged , but do prefer the Bible BEFORE ALL other Books extant in the World. Our Intention and Principle NEVER was to bring our Books in Comparison to the Scriptures ] No , G ? Is this True ? Does not thy own Conscience smite thee , and fly in thy Face ? Nay , is this possible to be true ? When G.W. himself calls the Scri●ture ( which the Minister asserted was the Foundation of Faith ) as I have already told you , NATURAL and CARNAL , the LETTER , which is DEATH , and KILLETH : What can be worse than Natural , Carnal , that which is Death , and Killeth ? Are your Writings worse than that ? Then further , do but consider the Titles and Epithets this very G.VV. gives to some of his own Books , viz. The Glory of Christs Light within Expelling Darkness . Another , The Light and LIFE of Christ within ; well , go thy ways , GEORGE , not onely for a QUIBBLER , but an AUDACIOUS CONFIDENT : surely , Geo. thou hadst not forgot , that your Book , ISHMAEL , was given forth from the SPIRIT of the Lord in you : Or did you deal therein falsely with the World ? And with God too ? Was any of the Holy Scriptures any more than given forth from the spirit of the Lord ? And if that you say be true , I am sure your Books must be EQUAL at least with the Scriptures ; but what need I talk of that , when Geo. himself assures me , that some of their Writings , or speeches were GREATER ? if ever the spirit of Truth spoke in any of them , it is of AS GREAT Authority ( says he ) as the SCRIPTURES and CHAPTERS are , and GREATER . Sect. 6 And to face quite about again , G. Keith told us positively , That W.P. hath the Scripture as the Secondary Rule of his Faith and Practice , Narrative of the Second Dispute , published by the Quakers themselves , p. 57. Who doth not see now , that these men will say any thing ? Or care not what they say ? Mr. Pen himself at best does but say , The Scripture is much like the SHADOW of the true Rule ( so far is it from being any ( either Primary or Secundary ) true and Substantial Rule to him , but onely much like the shadow of it , and a shadow is sometimes three or four times longer or shorter than the Truth and Substance ) and in that Respect ( says VV.P. it may be a KIND of a Secondary Rule : Observe , Reader , how mincingly and Quibblingly VV.P. words it ; 1. In that Respect [ as it is much like the shadow . ] 2. a kind of Secondary Rule , [ a shadowy Kind , but neither the true , substantial or certain Rule , ] and it all comes in with it may be suppositively ; now , which of these two Quakers is the Quibbler ? Both May be , one Must be . But that is not all neither , for worse absurdities will still follow ; for if that be true which G.VV. said , then that which is DEATH , and KILLETH , is A RULE of VV. Pen's Faith and Practice , and that which is Natural and carnal is A RULE of the Quakers Faith and Practice ; then an obscure something without them , is A RVLE of the Quakers Faith , and that 's not all neither : But if what Sam. Fisher said , be true , then VV.P. hath a NOSE OF VVAX , for a Rule of his Faith and Practice , or one of the Quakers Rules for their Faith and Practice is no better than a Nose of VVax . Nay , ( if you will believe Sam. Fisher himself ) is not CAPABLE of being ANY OTHER to them that have the Scriptures , ( which the Quakers have ) and as to them that have them not , they can be surely nothing at all ; not so much as a Nose of VVax : And is not this an Excellent Rule ( according to the Quakers own Confession ) that they now say they have , for a Rule of their Faith and Practice ? Sect. 7. I am sorry that before I conclude , I should have Occasion given me to Tax Mr. Pen of INSINCERITY , and deceitful dealing about this matter of the Quakers Doctrine touching the Holy Scriptures , by Reading the late little Book he set out , Entituled , A just Rebuke ( but more properly , a huffing Rebuke ) p. 10. Those very words he tells his Opponents , reflect most justly , as a just Rebuke on himself ; I must tell him , he hath Acted with them herein far from a Man of Common Ingenuity ; For , whereas W.P. asserts , The Quakers deny the Scriptures to be the Word of God in that sence wherein they deny them , viz. The Word that was God , the Essential Word : Does not W.P. in his Conscience know , that none of these Presbyterians , Independents , nor any others ever asserted against the Quakers , that the Scriptures were in that sence the Word of God , and consequently , is no part of the matter in Dispute ? And not onely so , but doth not W. P's Conscience witness , that the Quakers have , and do deny the Scriptures to be the written Word of God ? In which sence those men do not deny the Scriptures to be the Word of God , and the Quakers do ; and therefore W.P. must Act against his Conscience , in taxing them of being herein , far from Men of Common Ingenuity , when it is onely his own dis-ingenuity , thus to Quibble and deceive People . And Secondly , The like Fallacy , double dealing , and Insincerity W.P. manifests in his words , about the Scripture being a Rule , as if the Quakers owned the Scripture to be a Rule in some things ; or some parts of the Scripture to be a Rule to them , whereas it is manifest , that the Quakers have over and over again denyed the Scriptures in general , and not some part of it onely , to be their Rule ; yea , in these express words , The Books of the Old and New Testament , called the BIBLE , See the beginning of this Section . Oh Quakers REPENT , REPENT of such wickedness , and for shame leave off such double hearted dealing , and most unparallel'd Confidence ! Do not think all your Countrey-men Fools besides your selves , as if they could not discern such petty slights and Quibbles , and take Notice of them and you also , as not single-hearted in them . Sect. 8. For my Part , I never thought any man blame-worthy , nor would be he that should blame any man for changing his Opinion or Judgment , if so be he did it upon better ground , and did not pretend to INFALLIBILITY , nor scorn , nor blame others for Confessing their Fallibility , but did Honestly and Ingenuously acknowledge that he was before mistaken , and in an Error . But for Men to change their Opinions , either really , and yet endeavour confidently to vindicate , and justifie their former Absurdities and Errors ; or pretendedly onely to fawn and flatter , or curry favour with their Adversaries , or any others of the World , and yet still to pretend to Infallibility ; is so low , abominably base and Hypocritical , or so Impudent , that it is not to be admitted by , or among any Sober and Honest Men. Now , whether this change , alteration , and difference in the Quakers words and Writings , Epithets , and Phrases , about the Holy Scriptures be real , or onely Hypocritical , and Temporizing , out of design to blind others , and to ingratiate themselves a little more into Peoples Affections , and good-will of the World , God and their own Consciences best know ; yet the last is much to be feared , for this Reason , because they are so far from dis-owning their former mistakes and mis-expressing themselves , that they stand to vindicate and justifie it : But be it either way , they thereby shew their uncertainty , inconstancy , and self-contradictions , Confusions , and the effects of their Fallibility . Sect. 9. And therefore I would onely desire G.W. to tell me honestly ( if there be any such thing left in him , or that he may return to ) without Quibbling or Equivocation , or if not me , that he would acquaint his Countrey-men , 1. Whether he doth NOW Believe , That the Holy Scriptures , both of the Old and New Testament , commonly called the Bible , be the Letter which is Death , and Killeth , or whether they be the Letter mentioned or meant by the Apostle Paul in 2 Cor. 3.6 . And 2. If he do●h NOW believe , That were the Scriptures never so certain and entire , yet that they are not capable to be ( to all men ) any other than a Nose of Wax ? 3. And whether he , or W. Pen and the Quakers do NOW Witness and Believe , that the Letter of the Scripture is CARNAL ? A proper direct Answer is desired and required to this , without any Quibbling or mental Reservations , if the Quakers are indeed , what they now would pretend to the World , they are , and will manifest themselves to be no Dissemblers . The Conclusion . To Sum up all in short , and to Conclude this Mess and Medly of their most irreconcileable Contradictions , and irrecoverable Gulph of Confusions , in which they have plunged themselves o're Head and Ears , take it thus . Sometimes they can call , yea , and positively assert , the Letter of the Scripture is CARNAL , and the Letter is DEATH , and KILLETH : But their own pityful Scriblings , or Books , they can call The LIGHT , and LIFE of Christ within , and yet ( to go round again ) at other times they tell us , that they prefer the Bible BEFORE all other Books extant in the World ; but then ( to go round again ) they tell us ( without excepting one ) that THEIR WRITINGS and BOOKS are given forth from the immediate ETERNAL SPIRIT of God. Yet ( to face about again ) That their Intention and Principle NEVER WAS to bring their Books in COMPARISON with the Scriptures ; but yet , to go round again , ( though to their own Confusion ) the same man hath given us to understand , that what the Quakers speak from the Spirit of Truth is not onely of AS GREAT Authority as the Scriptures and Chapters are , but GREATER : And the Quakers can sometimes tell us , that one might AS WELL condemn the SCRIPTURES to be BURNED , as Their WRITINGS . But come once more to turn about [ Robin Hood ] W. Pen now hath the Scripture ( positively , says Mr. Keith ) as a Secondary Rule of Faith and Practice ; and yet , to step half-way back again , and Janus-like , look two ways at once , it is but much like the SHADOW of the true Rule , and in that Respect ( as it is like a shadow ) it may be a kind of Secondary Rule , Mr. Pen himself thinks , but he seems not certain of that neither : But to turn quite back again , if Sam. Fisher may be believed , the Scriptures we have , Though they were never so certain and entire , by answering to the first Original Copies ▪ yet are not CAPABLE to be ( to all Men ) ANY OTHER than a Lesbian Rule , or Nose of wax , so far are they from being either a Primary or Secondary Rule , that he says they are not so much as CAPABLE of being ANY OTHER than a Lesbian Rule ; and if that be the Rule G. Keith meant his Brother Pen had for his Faith and Practice , it may be true enough , and so he may well agree with his late Brother Fisher . But yet to give one turn more , the quondam sincere-hearted , and Zealous man , W. Pen , ( whose Writings many times , like squint-eyes ( which as they say , look nine ways at once ) would make us believe , if we were no wiser , that notwithstanding all this the Quakers abuse of Scripture , that 't is the Quakers are abused , and ( if he does not Quibble , and deal disingenuously ) they do indeed own ( what-ever they say to the contrary ) the Scripture to be a Rule in some things ; or some parts of the Scripture to be a Rule to them . But yet , says Mr. Fisher , ( to confound the Quakers , and knock all ot'h ' Head at once , ) They say truly , which say , that A RULE and Guide should be CERTAIN , which will not deceive , and that which is VARIABLE and ALTERABLE cannot be A Persons Rule : For it is the property of A Rule to be INVARIABLE , and the SAME at ALL times . But that as to the Scriptures we and the Quakers now have , he tells us , This is one plain VNDENIABLE Truth , viz. That there are VARIOVS Lections in the Copies of the very ORIGINAL Texts of the Scripture ; this he asserts point blank : and not onely that they are alterable and variable , but varying and altered in abundance of places ; and some parts , portions , and whole Books thereof LOST , and so is not fit nor capable to be a Rule or Foundation , as he gives us to understand , to cut the Throat of all , and to make short work ; Thus. Sometimes 't is Carnal , without Breath , Sometimes the Letter , oh , 't is Death ! Sometimes 't is a Rule of Faith ; That 's impossible , Fisher saith : Sometimes a Nose of VVax , no Rule . ( They know as much , as th' Ass or Mule ) Sometimes one way , then another , Sometimes both ways , this and t'other ; Sometimes one o' th two , take either , Sometimes 'twixt both Rules , but neither . Some say it 's this some that , some ( O Riddle ) Nor this , nor that , but just a Quibble . And so they run the Rounds , trace to and fro , and dance up and down in their dark minds about the Holy Scriptures , and their Rule of Faith ; I cannot think of any thing that the Quakers Doctrine about this , better resembles , than what their own Fisher brings to my Hand , the ( so called ) Devils Neck verse , which may be read upwards or downwards , backwards or forwards , which way they please , to the scanning whereof I at present leave them , wishing they may in time become wiser and honester , and not run the round so , still to make their Brains Giddy . S A T O R A R E P O T E N E T O P E R A R O T A S Sam. Fisher Transpos'd . THus Quaker's work , who talk for self , Is tangling talk against it self ; ' Gainst Truth a prate , a piteous Preachment That can't make good its own Impeachment , As Doctor REYNARD'S Doctrine does , Who heeds not well which way he goes ; Whitehead's , Live'stone's , Pen's prances round And round again in th' self-same Ground ; It staggers to and fro , and reels , Skips up and down , and runs on wheels ; Starts aside like some broken Bow , C●osses Christ like Cris X Cross i' th Row : Who so can feel , in it may feel , As 't were a wheel within a wheel ; A Net , Ginn , Trap , a Snare's in It , A VVhirlpool , Gulph , Bottomless-Pit . Wind , Dust , Husk , Chaff , no Stable Steeple A Tale , that takes unstable People , A Toy , a Cloud , Mist , Smoak , a Fogg , Both Quak'rism , and some Quav'ring Bogg ; A Quick sand , a Quagmire that sucks , Who 's in 't his Feet out hardly plucks , Himself who 's in gets seldom Out , It self 's more seldom in , than Out : It flutters like some blind Night - Bat , Now here , now there ; this way , now That : Now it is one thing , then another , And now and then nor t' one , nor to'ther ; Sometimes it 's This , sometimes it 's That , Sometimes it 's This , and This , and That : Sometimes 't is either this or that , Sometimes 't is neither this nor that : Now this , not th' other , anon it 's Either , Then by and by , both Both , and Neither . One while it looks like So , not No , Another while like No , not So : One way it seems or So , or No , Another way , nor No , nor So : Some ways it shews both So , and No , So it 's a meer endless No , and So. Here Follows THE QUAKING , QUIBBLING ANSWERER Turned to A SLIGHT TIMEROUS REVILER : OR , Remarks on G. W's . Slight silly Sheet , styl'd , The Timerous Reviler Sleighted ; Given forth by the said G.W. as a Reprehension ( for want of an Answer ) to the Second Part of the Quakers Quibbles . COVRTEOVS READER , THE Man I have here to deal withal , having neither Honesty or Knowledge enough to give a Right Answer , nor Prudence enough to hold his Peace ; you may ( it is not unlikely ) admire why I should trouble my self to take any Notice of so slight and silly a sheet , the greatest part whereof is stuff'd ( according to the Quakers old Custom ) with nothing but bitter Railings , scornful Revilings , and false Suggestions , as if the Quakers were dreyn'd , and this the very dregs of their filthy Bottle ; wherefore I shall here acquaint you with the Considerations that moved and constrained me thereto . First , That Justice which I found lay upon me to clear an Innocent Gentleman ( and so far vindicate his Innocency and Reputation , ) of whom , this Man hath Published in Print a most gross false Suggestion . Secondly , To undeceive the World , that I might not be false to the Truth , nor unjust to my self , they having raised and published of me , not onely many false surmises , but palpable falsities . They first take me for another Person , with whom they have had formerly some Contests , and then New Baptizing me , and dressing me up as they please , they throw all the dirt at Me , that they in their wicked and Malicious minds wish to Him , though he be a Person ( by the faithfullest account I could have concerning him , I not being acquainted with him ) whose Candor , Judgment , Parts , and Deserts , are as far beyond G. W's . in Reality , as Geo. can Conceit himself beyond others , and so not deserving any such ill usage at their unmannerly Pens or Tongues ; but this confirms me in my Opinion , that it is much at one , and you may as soon expect an Ingenious , Sober , Rational Answer from a Scold at Billings-gate , as from a Quaker ; till they change their Morals , as well as their Religion ( as much as Mr. Pen could ( which seems to be onely out of a fawning design ) pretend to speak in the behalf of poor morality , when as , it is his pretended Light and Inspiration within , that indeed he so much adores . ) No small Evidence whereof this Quakers pitiful sheet demonstrates it self to be , notwithstanding the pretended Civility and Condescention in his private Letter to me , yet his sheet , which he since set forth publickly ( being made up chiefly with so many false suspicions , and Railings ) now manifests that that was onely Hypocritical , or out of Design by fair words to deceive the Author : But alas , the Quaker was mistaken , and Geo. was too Young ; the Author had a better discerning ( without the Quakers Gift ) and understanding of them , than so , by his many Years Observation and Experience . He told me in his Letter privately , He took it well from me , that I Ordered him one of my books ; and in his sheet he tells me and the World , that the same Book was made up much with Scoffs , Quibbles , gross perversions and abuses , short of all seriousness and sobriety , yea , manifest perversions , lyes , and slanders . VVhat then did he take it well from me , that I ordered him such a Book with so many perversions , lyes , and slanders , scoffs , Quibbles , and gross abuses ? But as the Perversions , Scoffs , Quibbles , and Abuses were the Quakers that my Book set forth , and so was made up much of , it may be true enough , for I know of no such Perversions , Quibbles , &c. there , but onely the Quaker's , and there was good store of Them. Truly , Reader , some think the like Letter was hardly ever before seen to come from a Quaker , & one of their Chieftains too ; He assured me therein , he was as willing to receive INFORMATION as to give it in any thing wherein any thing seemed doubtful , or any mistake is ( or may be ) suppos'd , about the Controversies depending between us . Hereby then he acknowledges , he thought the Author was able to give him Information ( at least ) in some of those matters in Controversie , otherwise it was silly for him to desire that he might Discourse with the Author to that purpose , viz. for mutual information , as he writ he did . And did not the Quaker herein finely vail his Bonnet , that had been talking of , or pretending to INFALLIBILITY nigh these Twenty Years ( if not above ) and yet now in 1674 / 5. assures the Author ( who yet had told him I pretended no such Infallibility ) he was as willing to Receive Information ( by discoursing with him ) as to Give it in any thing seeming doubtful about the Controversies depending between us : And therefore for his better Information in those very matters , I send him this Discourse and Remarks of mine , further to try him and his reality herein : and for your better satisfaction you shall have here ( verbatim as I think ) his said Letter , and my Reply to it . T.T. For the Author of the Book , Entituled , The Second Part of the Quakers Quibles . To be left with Francis Smith , the Book-seller , to be Conveyed , as above-said . Friend , I Lately Received thy Book , Entituled , The Second Part of the Quakers Quibles , and take it well from thee , that thou * Ordered me one of them , and this is to desire so much Civility from thee , as that I may have an hours Discourse with thee ( if thou Livest in , or near London ) which , perhaps , may save us several hours writing , and prevent others of some charge and trouble in such Books of Controversie , and possibly may afford so much mutual Information as may tend to Peace , or at least , to a more moderate and serious method in managing the Controversies between us than the tenour of thy said Book seems to bespeak , which for Truths sake , and not for any popularity or Mastery , I could ( and do ) desire . And if thou wilt be pleased to let me know where thou Dwellest ; or where I may conveniently meet with thee , I am willing with a Friend or two to come to thee and two or three of thy Friends , as I may have an Opportunity ; for I apprehend both my self , the Truth and Friends wrong'd in divers passages of the said Book , and not onely so , but many serious and unprejudiced Readers are much disgusted , and wearied , and their Patience too much grated upon , by such kind of Method as thou hast chosen against me : Yet I 'le assure thee , I am as willing to Receive Information as to Give it , in any thing wherein any thing seems doubtful , or any mistake is ( or may be ) suppos'd , about the Controversies depending between us . So desiring thy Answer if thou † please , and as soon as may be , to what is hereby desired , I Remain , A Friend to thee and all Men , as bearing no ill will towards any , George Whitehead . London , 13 th . 12 mo . 1674 / 5. To Mr. George Whitehead , These . To be left for him at Mr. Francis Smith's , Book-seller , at the Elephant and Castle , near the Exchange in Cornhil , London . Mr. Whitehead , THY Letter , Dated the 13 th . came well to my Hands , which I find to be so Civil and Moderate , that I Accept of it very kindly from thee , and should I not return thee the like Answer , I must ( to save thee the labour ) judge my self ungrateful , which is an Humour I Naturally abhor ; and as this Courteous temper best becomes a Christian Spirit , so I assure thee I have always found it more prevalent upon my Soul than any Arrogant self-conceited huffing , and censorious damning . As to thy desire , for thee and two or three of thy Friends to Meet and Discourse with me , 't is a thing that possibly I should willingly comply with ; if some Circumstances of my Occasions would conveniently admit ; and that by your late Practice , as I have heard , you had not already given others to see , and Experimentally know how FRUITLESS such Meetings with you have , and do commonly prove : For if my Information fail me not , ( which I have not as yet any ground to suspect , I receiving it from a very serious and Sober Person , ) When you had accused one Mr. Hedworth ( a Person I do hereby assure thee , who is no more acquainted with me , than thou art ) and not being able , or at least willing to prove it your selves , you would IMPOSE upon the Gentleman , to accuse himself , * or otherwise you would not Discourse the Matter with him , when yet you had appointed him a Meeting to that purpose ; which surely Friend , thou must know , is not onely against the good Law of our Nation , but against the Law of Nature , and is no less than for you to set up an HIGH COMMISSION COURT , which our Prudent Governors have long since abolished , seeing the unreasonableness thereof ; and how any of thy Friends can rationally IMPOSE such Terms and Conditions on others ( against their consents ) or else refuse to Discourse with them , I must confess I do not , nor can understand , and therefore should much call my own Senses and Judgment into Question , if I should but imagine to see any good Effect of such a PRIVATE Discourse with thee and thy Friends . WHEN I Consider besides , that some of you have not stuck PUBLICKLY in the Face of the World to assert ( without blushing ) such strange things sometimes ( as I apprehend to be ) beside the Truth , common Reason , yea , and contrary to our very Eye-sight , which if you did not afterwards stand in , and pretend to vindicate ( but did ingenuously own the mistake , and candidly retract the Error , ) I should not yet think so ill of . Therefore as I have Printed my Reply , that all who will , and can , may see and Judge of what I say ; so I think it cannot be better than for thee to do the like , that all may see how Civily and fairly thou hast , or shalt deal with me therein , and that was the Intent I at first signified to Mr. Pen , hoping that his Education would have been so prevalent with him ( at least as he was a Scholar ) as not to write Trivially , or impertinently , nor deal unfairly by me , when he was COOL ; as I apprehended he did by some when he was HOT in the Dispute , which really I was then so Charitable as to attribute chiefly to the Motion of his Passion , or Party . Whereas thou sayest , Thou apprehendest thy Self , Friends , and Truth wronged in divers passages of my said Book ; if it should prove so INDEED , I should be heartily sorry for it , but I protest seriously to thee in the dread and fear of the most HIGH , that I have not wronged you knowingly , and if it should be Ignorantly ( which yet I hope upon due Examination will not appear ) I presume thy Charity may the easier forgive me , as I believe my Heavenly Father will ; especially if it be occasioned through thy OWN FRIENDS ill expressing themselves , they then may be more blame-worthy than I. Further , thou sayest , many serious and unprejudiced Readers are much disgusted and wearied , * and their Patience too much grated upon by such kind of method as I have chosen against thee . As to this , be pleased but to consider that they and thou must thank thy self for that , occasioning me so to do by thy dealing so INSINCERELY with me , and giving no real nor pertinent Answer when thou hadst undertaken it , which if thou hadst pleased thou mightest have forborn ; I could not , nor did impose it on thee : ( But since thou wast pleased to propose to the World , and thoughtest meet to undertake it . Now , it cannot but be expected , both by them and me , thou shouldest perform it more directly and candidly than as yet thou hast done , or ingenuously say thou canst not any more than others . ) For what Sober Person , that pretends to tenderness of Conscience and Ingenuity , would ever endeavour to make any believe I had contradicted my self , by saying IF PERHAPS ; or that pretended to any thing of Scholar-ship , that would assert those words of mine to be a Contradiction according to ( your own ) Mr. Keith's just Laws of Dispute ? Or what Man would have accused me , as being in the Vnbelief , and not acknowledging the sufficiency of the Spirits Evidence , for my owning Miracles , Signs , and the Gifts of Tongues immediately Inspired by the Spirit , as sufficient Evidence of the Spirit , which thou thy self sayest ( p. 12. ) I did propose as Evidence ? But if thou hadst been pleased to have given me a sincere Answer to the very Matter indeed at first , much , if not most of this had been prevented . Yet pray Consider why mine should grate on the Patience of thy serious and unprejudiced Readers , more than thy own Book lately put forth , Entituled , A Serious Search , which is almost five sheets , in Answer to two , proportionably I think my Reply is not so much . Besides , I have Divided my Discourse into Sections , and set down the Contents at the beginning , that so if any Readers Patience shall not serve him to Read the whole , he may onely cast his Eye on that Section he hath most mind to , which he may do without any great Injury , the Matter of them not depending much one upon the other . And , Friend , for thy ease , if thou shalt think good but to give an honest , plain , and direct Answer to the twelve particulars mentioned in the ADVERTISEMENT , which is not one full sheet , I shall gratis , quit thee ( for the present ) of all the rest , upon this Condition , that thy Answer be plain and direct INDEED to the very Question , without Equivocation , Evasion , or begging of the Question . And in my next , if I think I have Occasion to Rejoyn , it is now my Intention to be briefer , but then I wish it may not be sharper , I generally Observing that Prolixity much abates the picquant Severity of ones style . Further , I pray thy Excuse if I do take the freedom to tell thee , that I had abundantly rather see a Real Answer to that little part of it , than a great many words to the whole , if as far from the purpose as the former was ; and bear with me if I intreat thee to Observe this particular thing . If by grating on their Patience , thou meanest , their waiting for it so long , I 'le assure thee my self was a chief Sufferer in that Respect , and the Printer or Book-Seller to be blamed for keeping it five or six weeks in hand before Finishing it . To Conclude this , I 'le promise thee , that if thou wilt forbear all Reflections , for the Future , I will also , and onely and meerly concern our selves with the Merits of the Cause ; and this will be the best way I can think of , both to shorten the work , ease thee and me , and accomplish all the Ends propounded in thy Letter , which shall be my chief aim , as it is my hearty desire , if thou , or some of thy Friends do not divert me , so I Rest , Thy Well-wisher , T.T. 17. Feb. 74 / 75. Remarks on G. W's . Sheet , &c. W. Pen's Account of the INFALLIBILITY of himself and the Quaker's Ministers , We ascribe not an Infallibility to Men , but to the Grace of God ; and to Men , SO FAR as they are led by it ; for that it certainly Teacheth , what it doth Teach , W. P's . Rebuke , p. 22. And are not the Ministers of the Church of England , and the Ministers of the Baptists Church , yea , and ALL the Men in the World SO FAR INFALLIBLE , as well as the Quakers ? Oh Excellent Rhetorician ! But poor Logician ! SECT . I. Of G. W's . Title , and his False Suggestion therein ; Which runs thus ; The Timerous Reviler Sleighted , being a brief Reprehension of a Scornful Pamphlet , Styled , The Second Part of the Quakers Quibbles , Subscribed by the Name of Thomas Thompson , but ( by some ) suspected to be the Author of the two Pamphlets , the one Entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed , the other , Controversie Ended , &c. Sect. 1. REviler ] and why so ? But because I told him and the Quakers of their Railing , and demonstrated their Ridiculous and deceitful Equivocations ; let him but name to me any one word that I have used ( that he Accounts Reviling ) that he himself hath not used , or worse , in his Writings , if he can ; and till then he may with more Justice keep his Title to himself : But when these Men cannot bite , yet they 'l bark . Sect. 2. Sleighted ] a true word ; ●or as he hath Published it , 't is to say , SHIFTED , or dealt deceitfully and Craftily with ; and in the Apostle Paul's Time , we find there were some such , Eph. 4.14 . Be no more — carryed about with every wind of Doctrine , by the sleight of Men , and cunning Craftiness , whereby they lye in wait to deceive . But G. art thou no wiser to play Hocus Pocus , and shift me , but that thou must tell me and the World of it in thy Title ? Sect. 3. But suppose his Intention is , slighted ] ( for it seems a Quaker can hardly speak , or Print much now , without the Art of Directing the Intention , or speaking by a Figure ) Then we have a slight Title , fit for such a slight silly sheet ; yet Proud and Arrogant , denoting rather the Pride of Quakers , than the Humility of Christians , alias , we have a new-coyn'd Quibble for Evading an Answer , or an Old term for running away , and timerously quitting the Contest . Sect. 4. Slighted , no wonder , they that have slighted the Protestant Churches beyond the Seas , slighted the Church of England , slighted 21 Learned Divines at a Clap , slighted all the Baptist's Churches , yea , and slighted all Teachers and Professors in Europe besides themselves ; how is it possible but that I must be slighted too , except I 'le Banish my self to the Indies ? They that have slighted the Writings , or Books of Holy SCRIPTURE , ( so far as I have shewed you out of their own Books , and more particularly , G.W. himself , in his own words , but in the last precedent Section ) can you reasonably expect , they should not slight other Mens Books , and mine too ? Are these the Despised People , or the Despisers by G. W's , own Testimony ? What they cannot so well Answer , they pretend to slight ; a poor shift : For thereby they manifest but their silly scorn , and disdainful Pride and Arrogance . Though it is not yet six Moneths since , that his Brother Pen could take Notice of a ridiculous sorry Mouse ( as he calls it ) and so turn Mouse-catcher ; and are the Quakers thus Elevated on a sudden ? Sect. 5. A Reprehension , what , for want of an Answer ? It is indeed well known you are free enough of the first , however timerous as to the latter . Their Confidence , though usually too great , yet at this time it seems did not serve them to say it was an Answer . Sect. 6. But ( by some ) suspected to be the Author of the two Pamphlets , the one Entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers tryed ; the other , Controversie ended . ] VVhat , Infallible , and yet suspect ? How now , what , suspitious , George ? Other Men's Fallibility then , is as good as the Quakers suspicious Infallibility : Is this your Gift of Discerning , and Prophecy ? But that 's not the worst of it , For the Suggestion is of a matter absolutely false , Satan owing them a shame ( as the Proverb goes ) hath suggested a false thing , which the Quaker hath here Published to the VVorld , as true , to their own dishonour and shame . Besides , this Quaker h●th hereby wronged me , and abused another Person ( whom Mr. Pen , in his winding sheet , says , is H●n . Hedworth by Name . ) Sect. 7. First , G.W. hath here grosly wronged me in Publishing a Suggestion , and that in Print , that I was the Author of the two Books , Entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed , and Controversie Ended ; when as , I was not , nay , did not so much as see or hear of either of them , till after they were in Print . But in these Books , Mr. Pen hath ( in the Quakers Name ) declared to the VVorld there are several falshoods , scandals , lyes , and Forgeries , and yet here G.W. hath endeavoured to fix and fasten them all ( if any such be there ) upon me , as suggesting , or representing me to the VVorld as the Author of them . Now , ye that are Quakers of G. W's . Church , and pretend to be the true Church of God , I will try your Truth , Honesty , Conscience , and Justice in this partic●lar , viz ▪ VVhether you will cause G.VV. to make me satisfaction for the Offence and wrong he hath done me ( in spreading abroad a suspition and suggestion of me , in a Matter that 's absolutely UNTRUE , and UNJUST , ) in the same manner as he hath done it , viz. in Print ; I hereby require it , and demand it of you and him as you profess yourselves to be a true Church . And that you may not say I am , or may be unreasonable , I hereby Declare , that his bare acknowledgment of the wrong in Print , I shall accept of , as satisfaction . And for your further and full assurance of the falshood of the Matter , I do hereby Declare , and solemnly Testifie , IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY GOD , That I , who did write , and was the Author of the late Books , Entituled , The Quakers Quibbles , was not the Author of the two Books , Entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed , and Controversie Ended : and if there be any need , I doubt not , but that Common Justice will Oblige Mr. Hedworth ( if called thereunto ) to witness the same thing in the presence of your Church , he being , it seems , better acquainted with you than I am , or desire to be with such unreasonable , dishonest , and dis-ingenuous People , as some of you thus demonstrate your selves to be . And that you may not make your being unacquainted with me , any Excuse , of not doing me Right , I shall here take that off before hand : For if your Minister , G.VV. can abuse , and wrong me in Print by a false suggestion , though unacquainted with me , he may , and can as well and easily give me in Print the satisfaction required , though unacquainted with me , viz. onely acknowledge it so , you having it evidenced by my own solemn Testimony , and if that be doubted ( though you can have no Reason to doubt thereof , it being the Highest Testimony that Men can give . ) And you des●re further Evidence , signifie it to the Book-seller , and I presume Mr. Hedworth will be so Just , as to clear me , he being the best Evidence that it is possible for you or any one to have to clear me in this Matter , if so be , he was ( as Mr. Pen says he was ) the Author of the two Books before mentioned , but is not the Author of the Quakers Quibbles . So that ye Quakers , can have no just Excuse , and therefore I do again complain to you as wronged , and demand that you see that just satisfaction given me , that I require from G.VV. If not , I 'le mark you , and declare you to the world to be Abettors and Publishers of false suggestions . Sect. 8. Secondly , By this , G.VV. hath wronged and abused the said Mr. Hedworth , in raising , or spreading abroad a false suggestion touching him , as if he was the Author of the Book , Entituled , The Second part of the Quakers Quibbles , in which Book G.VV. hath Asserted and published to the world there are gross perversions and abuses , p. 4. Yea , manifest perversions , lyes , and slanders , that he is chargeable with , and as yet he lyes under the Guilt of , p. 2. and so represents and suggests to the world Him to be the Author of all those abuses , lyes , and slanders , which in truth he is innocent of : Therefore it is hoped that Mr. Hedworth will be at least so just to himself and his own Name , as to require satisfaction for such wrong and injustice done him , when as it is another Person that ought to be charged with all those manifest abuses , lyes , and slanders , if any such there be . Sect. 9. VVas it the Light within that led thee G.VV. to the publishing this suspition , or not ? If thou sayest , not ; then G. where was the Light , or thy sincerity to it ? If yes , Then thy Light leads thee to publish suggestions of Persons and things that are false . It must come from a false Spirit , it being a false Suggestion . Sect. 10. I should not have said so much about this , but upon these two Considerations . 1. Because these are the Persons that pretend to Infallibility , and a Gift of Discerning MORE than others that are not of their way . If G.W. had indeed a Gift of Discerning by the Light within , how wicked or silly was he not to inquire of it , whether this suggestion was true or false , and the suspition , right or wrong , before he published it ? Or if he did inquire , and the Light within him could not tell him , what is false , and what is true , then how doth he and his Light exceed others , or make him MORE Infallible ? How evident here and plain is either this Man's wickedness , or vanity in his Pretensions to a Gift of Discerning ? 2. Because of this Man 's base unworthiness , and unchristian carriage in publishing such a thing , when I had before in a Letter to him seriously assured him , that Mr. Hedworth was a Person no more acquainted with me than G. himself was ; but this Man being so guilty himself , of asserting and writing so many untruths and falshoods , he thinks others are like him , and no more to be Credited : But now let the unbyassed Reader ▪ Judge of it , do they think to Grace their Cause by such doings ? Where is thy Conscience and Religion , George ? Is this the Quakers Christianity ? Oh , silly Scorner , blush , and be ashamed ! SECT . II. About the Author 's NAME and LETTER . Sect. 1. THE Ingenious and Impartial Reader may easily Conclude how he hath managed the rest of the Work , by pu●●●g such a false suggestion even in his Front , and that so basely , and unchristianly : and at the same rate he goes on , with these words , Looking upon thee to be an unworthy , Cowardly , base Spirited Man , who shuffles about to hide thy self : How now , Friend ? What , such as M.Y. saw through the Key-hole , or so as one G.W. did in the Matter of Mrs. Bat — when accused at T. Y's . ? According to thy own way ( with Mr. Danson ) this is but a Query Mr. Sleights , thou better knowest the Mystery . Sect. 2. Thou art very cautious thy Name should be discovered . ] But alas , poor Men , that are put so hard to it , that they are now forc'd to make use of such slight shifts for Excuses . For the time was when the Quakers could tell you , that even the Blessed Name of JESVS and CHRIST it self , without ( that they call ) the Power , are but EMPTY WORDS , Princip . of Truth , p. 12. And yet behold what a considerable thing does this Quaker now pretend to make of my Name ? Oh the Folly and Hypocrisie of these Men ! can the Knowledge of an Empty word be of such weight to them ? which yet they cannot tell but that they do know ; to be sure they will not own that I am in the Power ; what , is this Man so base then , as to make my meer literal Name to be of more concern to them , than they have declared the meer literal Name of the Lord CHRIST to be , to them ? What , wouldst thou make thy being unacquainted with an EMPTY WORD , an Excuse ? Blush for shame ! Sect. 3. But to take that false Cover from him , and cut all short , I do hereby tell them for a certain Truth , That my real Name is in Print as a witness against them , and my Books as a Testimony against several of their Principles , and let them either Answer or Confute them if they can . Though this is more than 〈◊〉 ●as Obliged , either by their Civility , or any other Law , that I know of , to tell them : what if I should ask them whose Name is to the Epistle to the Hebrews , and the Acts of the Apostles ? whose Name is to the Books of Judges , Kings , and Chronicles ? Can the Quakers tell with all their Light uncontroulably what Men writ them ? And will it not thence appear , it may be both good and honest enough , though a Man's Name should be concealed ? And neither the Man the worse , nor his Book the worse ? ( what have they to say against Paul's changing his Name ? ) Besides the continual Custom of many good Men amongst us ; nay , and of the Quakers themselves sometimes , ( if they will admit themselves to be good . ) Pray , G. whose Name is put to that Printed Paper , Entituled , A Paper sent forth into the World , &c. accusing the Ministers of the Nation , and several Teachers of many gross things ? Pray , who writ The Principles of the Quakers Defendable by Scripture ? who is it , that cannot see now most strange Hypocrisie in these Men ? And what small twigs they would catch at , and hang upon : any thing rather than to deal honestly , and give an Answer in plainness . Oh Timerous Man , what sorrowful shuffling art thou fain to make use of ! Sect. 4. And whereas I said , suppose the Author be a private Person , what if he Dwells fifty or sixty miles from London , or what if the Author had subscribed M.A. could not W.P. have joyned N. ( according to Mr. L's . way of Addition ) and then have read it a MAN ; and that it was happy that their Light left them in so much darkness of the Author , that they could not tell whether it was the Author's real Name or no , when they read it ; to this G.W. says , Hast thou not bewrayed thy own Equivocation , and that the Author's Name is not Tho. Thompson ? I Answer , no : But I have bewrayed the Quakers Folly and Vanity , and that was one part of my aim , thereby to try Experimentally whether their high boasted Light would reveal any more to them than others , or stand them in stead when they had need of it ▪ whereby they might know and have a DISCERNING beyond others . But alas , Experience , ( which is one of the surest Masters ) now tells me , that the Quakers are as easily mistaken , and do as foully deceive themselves as other Persons in the World do : Their Light will not so much as help them to know really a Man's Name when they read it , except the Person himself , or some other Man Reveal it to them : And thus we see that I or a meer man may Reveal more to them , if we please , than their Light within . Sect. 5. Besides , to make this Man's Folly more manifest ; how silly is he to inquire about my Name , when he himself hath turned Baptist , and given me a Name , ( nay , two or three ) though I assure you false ones , which yet you may ( if you please ) take as one Evidence of the Quakers pretended Infa●libility , and I think as good as any they have . Notwithstanding this man is no wiser than to tell me , that he hath ground to think who I am , p. 5. and yet pretends the want of that very thing , as a main Reason why he does not Answer me , Doth he not herein , not onely Quibble egregiously , but ingeniously confute himself ? Sect. 6. As to his Letter and my Answer , the Reader hath them both set down before , to whose judicious Consideration I leave it , to be further Observed . First , how well the Style of G's . written Letter and his Printed sheet agrees , surely by the Letter , any one may well conclude , that the pretended Civility in the former , was no better than Real Hypocrisie : what Fountain is this within G.W. that sends forth both sweet water and bitter ? It seems G. put on a Sheeps Cloathing in his Letter , though he remained a VVolf inwardly , as appears by his Ravening sheet : A Cat will be a Cat still , George . Secondly , Thereby the Reader may also Observe , how falsely , and Quakerly G.W. represents it , where he says , That I shuffled him off with a Letter , pretending some Circumstances of my Occasions would not conveniently admit , with some other TRIVIAL Allegations , says he , whereas they were as weighty , if not more , than any other , and those Reasons that he calls TRIVIAL , were so weighty Arguments as I think it is possible for any to be , to a Person that would not offer violence to his own senses and understanding , for that was one of the Allegations I made , which he can call TRIVIAL ; and now his own virulent and abusive sheet may Experimentally satisfie others , what usage ( I writ him , I was well enough satisfied ) I must expect from Men of their Kidney , for if they would not spare to accuse and load a man falsely with Reproaches publickly in Print , how can I or any man expect , or promise our selves , but to be dealt withal as bad ( if not worse , if it may be ) in a private Meeting with them . Sect. 7. But as to what he says , of my having taken many hours to write against them : I Reply , VV.P. hath spent as many , and a great many more , in writing against Mr. Faldo , and yet in two Letters , one after another , he could pretend , some Circumstances of his Occasions would not permit him to meet Mr. Faldo : And one of them was such a Trivial one , viz. a Ceremony , that it was not at all becoming a Quaker : Shall I say then of VV.P. a strange put off ? ah poor timerous Man ! But I can with Truth tell thee , Geo. that my own House is above 44 Miles from London : Now then , poor Shuffler , does not thy catching at such Trivial things demonstrate that 't is onely thy own timerousness to Answer ? Silly Quibbler , is thy store of Evasions so exhausted , and VV. Pen's too , that ye have nothing left but the Dregs ? Sect. 8. But let the honest hearted Reader Judge , if I did not offer him fairly and Civily enough in my Letter , when I told him , that if he would give a Direct Answer but to one sheet of it , I should accept of it : or if that he would lay aside all Reflections , and enter solely on the MERITS of the Cause , I would do so too ; but no , the Gentleman did not think good , or dare adventure at that ; he had rather turn Mr. Sleights . SECT . III. Of Socianism ▪ and the Divinity of Christ , which the Quakers own . G.W. p. 5. Why hast thou appeared so much then ( lik● an Envious Socinian ) for the Angry Anabaptists , & c ? P. 7. What , is the Socinian , or Biddlean Prosylite Offended at our confessing the Divinity of Christ , & c ? Sect. 1. CAnst thou , G. for shame cry out against Socinians , and yet not Rebuke thy Brother Pen ? Thou shouldst first look at Home , and reprehend him : At best , all that thou sayest against them , is indeed against him , so long as his Sandy Foundation stands , without a Recantation , beyond his self contradictory weak Apology . Shew me such a word of my own , in either of my Books , if thou canst , as is in thy Brother Pen's , VNLESS the Father , Son , and Spirit are three distinct NOTHINGS , they MVST be three distinct SVBSTANCES , and consequently , three distinct GODS . Here 's a Socinian to the purpose , and this whilst he was a Disputer for , and amongst the Quakers : Besides , what is that whole Book of his but Socinianism ? Look no further than the very Title Page , and he tells you it is a Refutation of the Doctrine of Justification from , or by an Imputative Righteousness , and of Plenary satisfaction , &c. Shew any such Socinian-like assertions in my Book , if thou canst , Geo. Oh , the Folly of this Man ! That he should cry out against Socinians , and yet Cherish such an one among them ( and highly Commend him for a Sincere hearted Man too ) yea , and several of the once peculiar Socinian Doctrines amongst them : would not one think such a Fellow out of his Wits , to write thus foppishly ? But if the Quakers may hold three or four Socinian Doctrines , and not be Socinians , might not H.H. or another , hold one , and yet be no Socinian ? Sect. 2. But suppose one be a Socinian , can any judicious Person think it is a good Reply , or Answer enough to him to cry out , Oh ▪ he is a Socinian , a Socinian , a Biddlean ; why , truly then , at that rate , it will be Answer good enough to a Quaker , to cry out , he is a Quaker , a Quaker , a Quaker ; and so then they cannot justly expect any more from another , and thus they shew us a very easie way how quickly to Answer all the Quakers . Sect. 3. But I can tell this discerning Man more than yet his Light Reveals , as it seems , that he is most false and mistaken in these his Suggestions : Not that I will tell him here expresly whether I am one or no , because I will leave that for a further Tryal of his Gift of Discerning , and of his Revelation by the Light within : But I was never Baptized into that Name , till this Quaker turned Anabaptist : But if I were one , why should I think it any dishonour , more than W. Pen , when he wrote his Sandy Foundation ? Besides , I can freely tell G.W. I had rather a thousand times be one of them he calls Socinians , than such a Quaker as he is . Forasmuch as they own somewhat REAL in the Lord JESVS CHRIST , and own him to be a REAL PERSON WITHOVT VS . But this Quaker and others of them , make a meer PHANTASM ( or FANCY ) of him or his Body , as their former Preachments and Writings give me to understand : And accordingly some do not apprehend it any difficult thing to make out , that some of the grand Quakers , when they will speak more plainly ( whatever at other times they pretend ) do , or did own , no other CHRIST , than what is indeed and Truth either their own FANCY , SPIRIT , or MIND within , or at best , the dictates of their OWN CONSCIENCE , or what some Men commonly call the Dictates of Conscience , or others call Reason , Man's Spirit the Mind within , or the Life of Man , or cannot be well and truly differenced , distinguished , discriminated from them . And therefore they do but Quibble and Equivocate ( to blind the World ) when they talk of owning the DIVINITY OF CHRIST . For in Truth , They own no other Divinity of Christ , than what is properly , or essentially within their OWN BODIES : Neither do they in truth and plainness own any other DIVINITY of Christ , nor any other CHRIST than what 's born into the World with them , when they come forth of THEIR Mothers Wombs , or is manifest in THAT individual Flesh of theirs , as their words and writings inform me : And what a rare DIVINITY of Christ is this , ( think you ) that the Quakers own ? It is possible I may declare to you a MYSTERY of the Quakers Doctrine , which you have not yet heard of , or so well understood , which their sayings give me to understand , viz. That CHRIST and the Divine Nature ( or the Divinity of Christ ) is as truly , properly , or really in the BODY of GEO. FOX , or the BODY of G.W. as it was in THAT BODY born of the VIRGIN MARY ; and yet further , That the CHRIST manifest in GEO. FOX'S ( or some Quakers ) FLESH , is really , properly , and truly , CHRIST MANIFEST IN FLESH , as that CHRIST was , which was manifest in THAT Flesh at Jerusalem , Born of the VIRGIN MARY above 1600 Years ago . Let them directly and positively deny any one of these two if they will , and tell us , that what they say , is to be taken in the Grammatical sence to avoid Quibbling Equivocation , if they dare ; and 't is very probable , you may have a most full proof of it , and that from their own Mouths or Pens ; and therefore when they say , That Geo. Fox is not Christ , that 's but a Quibble , for they mean then by G. Fox , ONELY his Flesh , or Body ; and so they do likewise say , That the Body of JESVS , or the Body called JESVS , is not the CHRIST ; and thus no wonder then , if they say , that Geo. Fox's Body is not the Christ : But will they say , that the LIVING and BETTER Part in Geo. Fox's Body , or in and of GEO. FOX , is not THE CHRIST ? No , I never could hear them say that : So you may see what CHRIST it is they own , and what DIVINITY it is they talk of , to deceive ignorant People , and unwary Souls withal , a meer Quibble and most horrid Equivocation , no worse , nor better , notwithstanding ( at other times ) their feigned Pretensions to hide it . G.W. p. 6. says , I tell him of a pretty Medley of Hypocrisie , Quibbling , and Confusion , and deviating from Scripture-Language in their speaking of the Divine Nature or Word Cloathed with the most Holy Man-hood , being the Christ : But ( says G.W. ) is this a truth in it self yea or nay ? What is it ( or can it be ) now then with him a truth in it self , though it deviate from Scripture-Language ? or be a Medley of Hypocrisie , Quibbling , and Confusion ? Oh rare ! if this be thy Rhetorick , Geo. where 's thy Reason and Logick ? SECT . IV. Of Scornful Reflections . Sect. 1. G W. p. 5. With a multitude of Scornful Reflections upon G.W. W.P. and others , and not onely so , but upon the Quakers in general , with which thy Pamphlet is much stuffed , short of all seriousness and Sobriety . To which I Reply , that were it so , yet their playing the Fool , would be excuse enough : why do they Act , Write , or speak things , to render themselves so Ridiculous , if they would not have their Auditors and Spectators be moved at it ? I never heard of any Jack-Pudding , that wilfully made himself Ridiculous , but that it was with design to raise a pleasant Humour in others ; and if G.W. or the Quakers have not the like design , it is to be feared they have a worse : But if they would not have others be moved to Laugh at them , their best course would be , to learn to be no more Ridiculous , nor write and Print Non-sence . For if G. Fox will pretend to be wiser than ( and to Instruct ) all Europe , and yet is such an Ignoramus , as to call a Father , Mother ; a Man , Woman ; or a He , She ; or not know the Masculine Gender from the Femi●●●e , is any Man to be blamed for Laughing at ●im ? For my part , I do here say , I think not at all : But rather that it may be a Duty , at least very convenient , to Laugh at such vain boasting Pride , Ignorance , and Ridicu●●sity , to shame them out of it . Sect. 2. But still Mr. Sleights , thy Brother Pen , falls under thy lash , why dost thou not Reprehend him ? Thou oughtest to have done that in the first place : You shall , I think , hardly find any use more scurrilous scoffing ( in such matters ) than he hath done . To instance but in three or four ( because of brevity ) of his scornful Reflections , viz. W.P. Rejoynder to Mr. Faldo , p. 38. I cannot but Observe after what a SVSPECTED RATE the SCRIPTVRES have been first Collected , and then conveyed throu●h the several Ages , &c. P. 39. From hence we may Observe the VNCERTAINTY of JOHN FALDO'S WORD OF GOD. Pen's Rebuke , p. 31. It is the Presbyterians special Grace , THAT SAVETH ; and as for particular Persons , take this in his Winding sheet , p. 2. That Little Great Pragmatical T.F. a MONSTER , ALL Tongue and NO Ears Will ye say now , that it 's likely any Man should out-do this Pragmaticus ( your Brother Pen ) for Personal Reflections ? nay , he gives the Gentlemans Name at Length , though as I hear , one that is a good substantial Citizen , a Person of very good Repute and Estate ; besides the Personal Reflection , if one should inquire into the Truth of it strictly , one should find it to be a most notorious falshood , for I have inquired , and do understand that that Gent. hath TWO EARS , though W.P. say● NO EARS : ( and so might give Occasion to some silly suspitious Quakers , to think , as if the Gent. was indeed Born without Ears , or had lost them ) so base was his scurrility , and at best W.P. will have need of a Quakers Figure ( which must needs be the Devils drawn Figure ) for to help him out , and excuse this Scoffing Slander . If you would have a Scornful Reflection above all that ever I read , a silly and Prophane one too , See W. Pen's Winding sheet , p. 8. speaking of H. H's . Prayer to the Lord JESUS : But indeed , his Margin proves to us , he takes him for A MAN , and none of the BEST LINGVISTS neither ; for lest HE should not well understand the English word delivered , he refers HIM to Tradita in the Margin , though both Translations , and one as good as the other , for the Original word is Greek , which either H. Hedworth does not know , or he doubted the skill of him he prayed to , or else he did foolishly to Correct by a Translation , the Original word being ready . Any other Man of Sence ( except such a wilful scoffing Perverter as W.P. ) could not but take TRADITA , to be there put down for the Readers , ( and especially ye Quakers ) better Information , not for the Lord Christ●s ; and so I took it on my first Reading it , and could honestly take it no otherwise , H.H. fearing ( as I perceived ) you might , or would Quarrel , or discant upon the word TRADITION , just before used by him in his Prayer . But by this it appears the Quakers are so Prophane , and far from owning the Lord JESUS , the MAN that indeed dyed at Jerusalem , that they wilfully make a meer Scoff at one's serious Worship and Prayer to him . Where 's W. Pen's Religion and Conscience now ? Is it all devoured with Lightness , and turned into Scorn ? Nay , Mr. Pen is such a Pragmaticus , and a wit , that rather than he would lose breaking his Jest on Jeremy Ives , he would adventure the bestowing on himself the Title of Mouse-hunter , or Mouse-catcher ; and in time , if he continues , as he hath begun , it is hoped he may as well arrive to the Degree of a Rat-catcher amongst the Quakers . P. 4. He says , I term my self a scornful Fellow : which is a plain and evident falsity , for I did not term my self so , but these were my words , G.W. knows , IT SEEMS , it is a Scornful Fellow he hath to deal withal ; otherwise I thought he would not ( nor could ) have styl'd my Epistle a very scornful Pamphlet , as he did : Where 's this Man's Conscience now ? Or so much as common Honesty ? That cares so little what he says or writes , though never so false . Is this and the like the Quakers Religion ? Is this the Practice of one of the Vs Gods People ? Is this to pretend Christianity ? Or to talk for it at such a Rate ? Then many Civil Heathens may , or will go beyond them . SECT . V. Of the Miraculous Gifts of the Spirit , and of Prophecy . Sect. 1. IT appears G.W. met with two such stumbling-blocks ( though of his own framing ) at the very threshold ( the Epistle ) of my Book , that he dar'd hardly to enter into the Book it self , onely peeps in , and presently his Brother Fisher's Ghost presents it self to him , and thereupon he Runs away from the rest , as if he was scar'd out of his wits . Without any of the Quaker's Revelation I could fore-tell my Reader how I did expect they would winch and Kick , wynd and twine , to Wyer-draw , or draw back those two Sentences again , but all will not do . For as to the First , he can poorly and onely give us his bare word without any Proof , That those Spiritual Gifts were ONELY PECVLIAR to some in the Apostles days , p. 2. I have proved the contrary , by Testimonies and Records Cited in my Second Part of Qu●k . Quib. p. 53. And besides , if he could do that ( which I conceive he will never be able to do ) yet his business would remain still undone : For how will he be able to prove Infallibly , uncontroulably ( Sam. Fisher's word ) and certainly , that these Gifts of the SPIRIT , viz. the Gift of Infallibility ; Discerning of Spirits , Immediate Revelation , and Prophecy ( or an immediate Gift of Interpretation , and fore-telling things to come , certain●y and expresly , and not conjecturally onely ) were not PECULIAR ALSO ( without begging the Question ) to some Christians and Ministers in the Apostles times , as well as the Gifts of Healing , Tongues , &c. ( when besides , the Gift of Infallibility is one of the matters in Question . ) For the same Text that says , Tongues shall cease , and Knowledge vanish , first mentions , that PROPHECIES shall FAILE , 1 Cor. 13.8 . and that in the Plural Number . Sect. 2. And whereas G. says , If he could speak with the Tongues of Men and Angels , that were not a sufficient evidence ( OF IT SELF ) to convince Vnbelievers : I Answer , That is more than he knows ; because he never could make Tryal : It might be sufficient to convince Vnbelievers , though not to Save himself . But if that were any good Argument against the Gift of Tongues NOW , then it is also a good Argument against the Gift of Prophecy NOW , yea , and against FAITH ; since the Apostles very next words in 1 Cor. 13.2 . are of the same strain ; And though I have the Gift of Prophecy — and all Faith , and have not Charity , I am nothing — it profiteth ME nothing ; [ whatever it may do to others . ] But above all , G.W. shews his Folly , when he had said , That the Gift of Tongues , and working Miracles were PECULIAR to the Ap●stles times : Yet then to talk that he cannot give away the Quakers Cause , as to working Miracles in a Spiritual way . Oh Senseless Man , is this thy Rhetorick , or Logick , either ? Were not the Gift of Tongues , and all the Miracles that the Apostles & the Christians then wrought , Miracles in a Spiritual way ? Surely thou darest not say , but that they were . And thus you see he is as far off as before , he hath done just nothing at all to take away the dint of his own words as a strong Argument against himself . But he hath here made it worse in this sheet , by positively LIMITING THE HOLY ONE in those visible Gifts of his Spirit , saying , they were ONELY peculiar to them then . Who hath given this Quaker POWER to LIMIT what Gifts of the Holy Spirit are to be PECULIAR to the Primitive Time , and what are to CONTINUE ; and none but such and such as he says ? Oh Rare , is not this abundantly more Arrogant than for John Perrot , to Subscribe John onely ? Or to write Proverbs , like Solomon ? SECT . VI. Of the Manifestation of the Spirit . Sect. 1. G W. p. 2. Whereas a Manifestation of the Spirit was given to every Man to profit withal : Very good , this makes as much for the Gift of Tongues , and healing the Sick , as Prophecy , since they were all Manifestations of the Spirit ; and if the Gift of Tongues were not COMMON to all , no more was the Gift of Discerning , nor of Prophecy COMMON to all ( See 1 Cor. 12.29 . ) And therefore that makes as much against the Continuance of BOTH , as ONE : And so Geo. by his own Hand , is but still st●iking at , and Destroying his own Cause . Sect. 2. Besides , I could wish for no fuller and fitter Text for my purpose and his confutation , than this he hath Cited ; For if the Manifestation of the Spirit be given to every Man to Profit withal , then it is a strong Argument against the Quakers , that they have it not , or at best have it not any more than others , because there appears NO SUCH MANIFESTATION given to them MORE than others have , whom yet they Condemn , which will be easily further demonstrated , if you do but consider this , viz. That the Quakers must mean , that these words of the Apostle are to be taken either Vniversally , and that the manifestation of the Spirit was , and is given to every one , as well Women , as Men , to ALL Persons in the World. Or Restrictively , to the CHURCHES in the Primitive times ( and particularly that at Corinth ) to whom the Apostle was writing . And Secondly , Consider that these Manifestations of the Spirit , so given , must be either VISIBLE or INVISIBLE , ( though it is apparent enough by the enumeration of those Manifestations in the subsequent Verses , that the Apostle spoke of visible manifestations , such as were visibly APPARENT to others , and for the Profit of others , without as well as within the Church , and the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Apostle uses , signifies , plainly and clearly appearing ; open , bare , or easie to be seen , as a Face uncovered . ) Sect. 3. But let the Quakers take it which way they will , it destroys their Usurped Title , and vain Pretences above others , whom they Condemn . For if they say that the Apostle meant thereby , that the manifestation of the Spirit which he speaks of , is given to every one in the world . Then they at the same time grant , it is given to the Church of England , to the Baptist Churches , and to me also ; and if they I say , that the manifestation of the Spirit is VISIBLE to others , then thereby they grant they have it not more than others , nay , are without it ; because the Quakers have Censured and Condemned other Churches as being WITHOUT it , and yet themselves can produce visibly NO MORE manifestation of the Spirit , than those , whom they say are without it . And if they say , the manifestation of the Spirit is INVISIBLE to others , then at the same time , they grant , the Church of England , or the Baptist Churches may have it , though they may not know it , or cannot SEE it , for how should they , if it be INVISIBLE ? Sect. 4. But on the other hand , if they say , These words of the Apostle are to be taken Restrictively , that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every Man in the Churches onely , ( as most likely in truth it is , as the word IS in the Present Tense , and the whole scope of the Chapter intimates , the Gifts and manifestations of the Spirit he mentions being then peculiarly in the Church , and no where else that we find , such as the Gifts of Healing , Tongues , &c. mentioned in the very next Verses , as some of these manifestations spoken of , in v. 7. ) Then this of the Church at Corinths having the manifestation of the Spirit , is no more to the Quakers , than to the POPE OF ROME . For it will not follow , That because the Church at Corinth had the manifestation of the Spirit , that the Quakers Church must NOW have it , nor because THEY SAY they have it ; for at that rate , the Baptist Churches , and ALL the Churches in England might claim it , and who can hinder them ? And besides G.W. hath barred himself of that , and plainly told us , ( in his Glory of Christs Light within p. 33. ) That which was to one State , was not to every particular State and Condition among the Churches , neither do we read that the Church at Corinth , was to go and make the Epistle to the Church at Rome their Rule ; Nor that the Churches at Ephesus , Philippi , or Thessalonica were to go to the Corinthians for Pauls Epistles to them , to compare theirs with , and to be their Rule ; but that of the Spirit or Light within , to which they were all directed , and which was the Rule of the New Creature whereby the things of God were Revealed and made known unto the Saints . Now then what does the Apostle Paul's writing to the Church at Corinth [ that the Manifestation of the Spirit was then given to every Man , to profit withal ] signifie to G.W. or the Quakers here ? They are not the Church at Corinth , nor can they produce visibly such Manifestations of the Spirit , as they did ; Nay , G.W. himself gives you to understand , such visible manifestations were onely peculiar to the Apostles times . Thus then you may easily see how much this silly Quibbler is beside the business , and hath confuted himself SECT . VII . Of the Gift of Discerning of Spirits . Sect. 1. G W. p. 3. says , He cannot give away the Quakers Cause , as to the Gift of Discerning of Spirits , for they have sufficient evidence thereof , as a Gift given to divers . I suppose the two Germans , Young men , ( may be some of their most sufficient - evidences ) who pretending to be of great Families , and Convinced of the Truth of Quakerism , as I have heard , came ( or were Conducted by one S.C. a Quaking Minister ) into England , and were Entertained at London , at the common Charge of the Quaking Friends of Devonshire-House for a long time . The Quakers paid for their Board , and bought them Apparel , Glorying in their Converts : But in process of Time , it seems these Men in the Prosecution of their Debaucheries , fell at variance , and each of them fearing to be detected by the other , charged one another , in a Meeting of Quakers , with great and notorious Crimes ; did they not detect one another even of haunting of Bawdy-Houses , W — Pilfring , &c. even out of those Houses where they had been entertained ? Was not here in the mean while an Excellent Gift of Discerning , among the Quakers ? Sect. 2. Another Instance and pregnant proof I have heard of also : One W.W. being a Minister among the Quakers for many Years , and an Active man in their Cause , yea , and a Sufferer for the same , was not discern'd , nor Discovered by the Quakers , till being troubled in his own Conscience , he Confessed himself , to have Lived in uncleanness , &c. Who is it will not think now that they have a most Excellent Discerning of Spirits ? And that they are so very wise , and have such a Rare Gift , they can tell any thing that 's told them , and so can others . SECT . VIII . Of Vnbelievers , Muggleton , &c. Sect. 1. G W. p. 3. Hast not thou plainly implyed th● self to be an Vnbeliever , who wants such a Sign to be shewn thee , to evidence that WE are Divinely Inspired ? Observe , 1. How sillily does this Mr. Sleights scribble of my implying my self to be an UNBELIEVER of their Divine Inspiration , when I have often directly confest it , and now do it once more , That I do not believe that G.W. nor the Quakers are Divinely inspired , so as the true Apostles and Ministers of Christ were ; and I am well assured , I have very good Reason for it , viz. Because they cannot Evidence it , as the true Apostles did . This was one of the first things I writ them , that I did not , nor could possibly upon any good and certain grounds , believe the Quakers Pretences to a Commission from Heaven , Immediate Revelations and Inspirations , MORE than Muggletons's except they could produce somewhat considerable MORE than Muggleton could , and therefore I prayed them to shew me what they had , and to tell me but this , Why I might ( and ought undoubtedly ) believe them and their Commission , MORE than Muggleton's , or the Baptists ? Which I am sure is a very Reasonable and modest Request ; for otherwise , I should have no BETTER ground for my FAITH in Believing a Quaker , than a Baptist , or Muggleton . 2. But I do believe , and declare to all the World I am a BELIEVER , that the Apostles Peter and Paul , and the true Apostles and Ministers of CHRIST , had Divine Inspiration , and that they both could , and did Evidence it . Though I do NOT BELIEVE that the Apostle Geo. Fox , nor the Apostle G.W. nor the Minister W. Pen , nor other pretended Apostles , or false Ministers , have such Divine Inspirations ; because they do not , nor can , ●O Evidence it , as the true real ones did : And let any Quaker amongst them all , Answer this if he can . Muggleton and the Church of Rome say they have Divine Inspirations , as well as the Quakers , dost thou , G.W. ( or any of the Quakers ) BELIEVE it ? No doubt I may safely presume , you will say , No : Why then art not thou an UNBELIEVER , as well as I , for want of such a sign to be shewn thee by them to evidence indeed that they are Divinely Inspired ? For I 'le be so Charitable as to think , that if they could produce such Evidence , that they were Divinely Inspired , some of the Quakers at least would BELIEVE Muggleton , since it is very Certain , that some one ( or more ) that was of the Quakers for several Years , yet now is turn'd Muggletonian , and believes him without any such Evidence . 3. But besides , how poor and pitiful would this Quaker hereby represent his Church to be , as if it had not , or could produce no sign as Evidence to Convince UNBELIEVERS , that they ( Quakers ) are Divinely Inspired , MORE than what a Papist , or a Muggleton ( an Impostor ) can do : Oh sad ! to be proud , and yet Beggerly ; proud in pretences and boastings , but Beggerly in the Actual Demostration of the Spirit , and of Power . Sect. 2. G.W. p. 7. Note , that this Man boggles at , and evades my eight plain Questions , [ in p. 22 , 23. of Qua. Plainness ] about the Son of God. And note , Reader , this man [ viz. G.W. ] Boggles at , and Evades five whole Sections , and an Advertisement of twelve particulars , that is , in short , my whole Book . Is not this an Honest Person think you , thus to cry — First ? Is it possible that this man could have Vnderstanding and Eyes enough to see this , and not the other , without SPECTACLES ? or without being taken by the Sleeve , ( though not so wrathfully or ruggedly as he pulled W. King ) to shew him his Face in a Glass ? But it seems the Case is altered , quoth Ployden . This man hath boggled at , and evaded a whole Section about the Son of God , the Lord Jesus Christ , his Person , his Nature , &c. He hath boggled at , and evaded another Discourse , about the Spirits Evidence and sufficiency , the Gifts of the Spirit , Miracles , &c. Jeremy Ives did but let a poor sorry Mouse ( so called ) run up and down the streets , and their Zealo●● man , and great Doctor , W. Pen , ran presently aft●●● ; but a Discourse about the Lord Jesus Christ ( though immediately Directed to W. Pen ) yet he hath declined , and G.W. hath slighted , contemned , and openly run away from . However I can inform him better , there was no occasion for me , either to boggle at , or evade those Questions , I finding they were demanded of the Baptists , but I was none ; and now G.W. himself says , neither did he take me for any then , ( but how palpable a falsity that is let any Pesron but consider his own words , in Qua. Plainness , p. 35. The Baptists may be ashamed of such gross and abusive Insinuations as this , comparing the Quakers and Muggletonians — AS WHERE IT IS SAID , Muggleton says , he is one of the two Witnesses , and the Quakers say , they are the true Witnesses , &c. Now , it was I that said so THERE , and I ONELY . Thus then he made me a Baptist , now no Baptist , but Socinianized , anon a Socinian , yea , a Biddlean Prosylite ; Oh Excellent Discerning Quaker ! I wonder what his huge Gift of Discerning , will TRANSFORM me into next ; ( may I not be afraid of Withcraft , or that he is one of the Heathenish gods ? I think not . ) But 2. G.VV. Had not plainly and directly Answered to mine , which he had already undertaken to Answer , but instead thereof he meerly Trifles , Quarrels , Contemns , Retorts Questions , &c. And therefore till that be done , no Answer could , or can be duly , or in Course expected to those new Questions : But if he pleases to give me an honest , plain , and direct Answer to what I have writ , without Evading , or Quibbling , I will promise him he shall have an Answer 〈◊〉 ●hose Questions , without Boggling or Evading , rather ●●an that shall be any Excuse to him . Sect. 3. G.VV. p. 8. Hast thou managed the Baptists Cause well , in saying , they do not pretend to such Immediate Revelations , Inspirations , Infallibility , &c. contrary to their former Testimonies ? Observa . It is not for me to boast of my self therein , neither desire I , but for ought yet appears , it is managed well enough , as I apprehend , and better than thou hast managed the Quakers Cause by Sleights , for , 1. Thou dost not set down the place , nor page , in their Books , nor so much as cite their own words , that one may know where to find those former Testimonies thou talkest of , and see how honest thou art therein , for to tell thee truly , I can give but little Credit to thee now , seeing what thou art , and hast manifested thy self in Print to be . 2. But if thou dost find any such Ancient Testimonies , I dare say , n●ither you nor I shall there find that they Testifie they pretended to them AS the Quakers do , for so I said . 3. But yet if that were to be found , why may it not be as Lawful for them to decline from what many of them pretended at first , as for the Quakers to decline from what many of them pretended at first , as I have Instanced abundantly in several particulars , in this Third Part of the Quak. Quib ? What , is it a vertue in You , and a vice in Them ? Surely they might better do it , ( a hundred times ) than ye Quakers , because you pretended to a Gift of INFALLIBILITY , but none of those men , whose Testimonies you make mention of , did so , that I understand . SECT . IX . Of the Quakers Art of DIRECTING the INTENTION , sometimes directly Contrary to their Express words , and sometimes quite beside their true , proper , common , and Ordinary import and Signification . I Having in my former Book onely hinted this , and Confined my self to one Instance , for fear of swelling it to too big a bulk , it hath been intimated to me , that some discreet Persons wished I had been larger therein , which I could desire some abler Person would undertake , it being a Theme whereon one may have Scope enough , if he does but consider what he Reads in the Quaker's Books . But the same Reason that prevented me then , will in a great measure do the same still , viz. The fear I have of exceeding the brevity that was design'd , therefore I must now give you but a few Instances more ( of many that I could produce ) and beg your Excuse , if it makes this longer , than otherwise it would , or should have been . Sect. 1. That which I Instanced , was a most eminent and remarkable one , in no less Case than that of BLASPHEMY in it self ; Solomon Eccles , one of their Ministers , did not onely write privately , but thought fit to Publish it in Print to the World , That it may be SAID , yea and SO said of GEORGE FOX , AS it was said of CHRIST , that he was in the World , and THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM , and the World knew him not , whom John said , HE WAS NOT , as you may see more largely in the Second Part Quak. Quib. p. 93 , 94. G.W. In his Serious Search , p. 58. In this matter undertakes ( according to the Jesuitical Art ) to DIRECT Solomon Eccles's INTENTION , and gives us to understand , that indeed Solomon Eccles did not INTEND as he writ and published , but though he said it of GEO. FOX , yet ( seeing People take notice of the Blasphemy of it , and of the Divine Honour that they give by such words to G. FOX , to the shame and dis-credit of their Cause ) he INTENDED it onely of CHRIST ; so he spake or writ one thing , and meant another , which yet , in sincere-hearted W. Pen's sence ( at another time , he can tell you ) is no better than to be one of the worst of KNAVES ; they are his own words , in his Rebuke , p. 8. And so let him share it amongst them , if they please . Sect. 2. You have another ingenious one in this sheet of G. VV's . p. 4. concerning FIGURES ; yea , even when they are speaking of Figures , and against Figures , they speak by a Figure : One while the Quakers tell us , ALL Figures were ended by Christ ; but now this Quaker is at the Old Jesuitical Art again , of DIRECTING THE INTENTION , and gives you to understand , that though the Quaker says , ALL Figures , yet he does not INTEND all , but onely SOME , viz. The Figures under the Law. I need not onely set his Quondam Master Fisher to whip him for this , Rusticus ad Acad. p. 142. So on this score our Scribes scape scot-free still by their SHIFTS . To meet with Quakers [ we ] need never doubt , Nor need [ we ] when we meet them fear a rout ; If all 's but some , Out 's In ; and In 's for out , Then they are always In , and never Out . Thus ( says Fisher ) the Seed of the Serpent saves it self alive in its Enmity against the Holy Seed , not so much by PLAIN DOWN-RIGHT DEALING — as by shameful SHIFTINGS FROM SENCE TO SENCE , miserable marchings from meaning to meaning , so that one can hardly know well where to have them , nor how to find them , nor what they mean. Then he complains , But as for us , we may not safely WITHOUT THEIR CENSURES , so much as take the Scriptures to be ( what themselves are neither afraid , nor ashamed to make them , viz. ) a LESBIAN RULE , and NOSE OF WAX , which may be made ( yet scarcely is by any more than themselves ) to shew it self in 7 , 8 , 9 shapes at once . [ Oh brave Fisher ! ] And though they dare Dispute themselves , and Argue any way from Figurative and Forreign , and proper and improper , Literal or Mystical meanings and Importments of words and Phrases , yet they can well digest , or dispense with none of all this in us . and LEAST OF ALL , when we do ( as we mostly , or EVER do ) keep to the true , honest , Ordinary , and plain purport of the words , as they lye OPEN AND CLEAR to every Ordinary and Common Capacity , that is willing both to know , own , and do the Truth . So far he ; and need any Man any more to Confute and Confound this Figurative Quaker ? Sect. 3. Nay , and they undertake , not onely to DIRECT their own Friends . INTENTIONS , but other Mens also , such Masters of it are they ; as hear G.VV. again , p. 4. If Quakers use Figures , either Metonymies , Metaphors , or Ironies , Oh then it is used , and INTENDED in a Serious Sence : But if T. Hicks , or another , use the same , or the like , in the Title or words of their Books ; Oh , then it is INTENDED as palpable Slander , or DESIGNED Forgery . Thus indeed Geo. is so far from clearing of himself , by his silly Answer , from the dint of his Second Sentence against himself , that all he says , can amount but to thus much , viz. That T. Hicks speaks , or writes words , which are Scoffing , sland●rous Lyes , used in a Scoffing or Ridiculous s●nce : And the Quakers speak , or write words , which are serious Lyes , used in a serious sence : Taking both their words equally and alike in their Natural , Proper , and Grammatical Sence , without Respect of Persons ( which once I am sure the Quakers pretended much to abhor , and nothing worse , or more unjust , than Respect of Persons . ) For if the first Accusation alone will so alter and vary the Intention , and make a Man Guilty , then the Quakers are as liable so to be made by T. Hicks , as T. Hicks by them , yea , and rather more , because the Quakers are Originally the first Persons Accused , and impeached by T. Hicks ; in his first Dialogue , and this Renders G. W's . Cause very lame , and sorely wounds it . And which is worst of all , Mr. Sleights is so willing to Sleight over this , that he slips by his own Prophet's words , which yet stood as fair to be seen as any there , on the very top of the last Page in the Epistle , which if he had said any thing to the purpose , he should have cleared ; for there G. Fox speaks Directly of Figurative Speeches , viz. VVe Charge thee shew us a Verse in Scripture that speaks such Language , and where ONE WORD may be put for ANOTHER by METALEPSIS ; and so leave People in Doubts and Questions . What sayest thou now , Geo ? What , couldst thou not see this ? If the next time thou writest , thou canst not , I will write to the Book-seller to buy a pair of SPECTACLES for thee to help thy Eye-sight . Now , for him thus slily to avoid this ( if he could ) by a Figure , surely cannot be much better than one of his Devils drawn Figures . Sect. 4. Another Excellent ( rather most grossly false ) one , he gives us in this thread-bare sheet of his sleight stuff , p. 7. where he DIRECTS his quondam Master , Sam. Fisher's INTENTION , though dead , and Directly contrary to his words , yea , the main Scope , Bent , and Intent of his Book . Well , now good Readers , I am fully satisfied G.VV. is a wicked Man , and of no good Conscience , but of an Audacious Confidence , for otherwise he could never have had the face to publish such a thing , that all Persons that can but Read English , and understand what they Read , may detect his falseness in ; as here , Sam. Fisher , in his Appendix , p. 21. speaking of the Scriptures , and the Scripture Text , says thus , in these very words , VVhich Transcriptions and Translations , were they never so certain and entire , by answering to the first Original Copies , yet are not CAPABLE to be ( to all Men ) any other than a LESBIAN RULE , or NOSE OF WAX , [ now , if so far be not a plain Assertion , I never saw , nor heard any in my Life : Then he goes on in his Proof , or Confirmation of it , as his word Forasmuch denotes , ] FORASMUCH as even WHERE MEN HAVE THEM ( as half the world has not ) they are lyable to be WRESTED and ▪ Actually twisted twenty ways , &c. Now comes G.VV. with the Art and Mystery of Jesuitism , and would DIRECT Fisher's INTENTION , By asking me thus , Hast thou dealt Honestly and Truly in this ? Was it S. F's . positive Assertion concerning the Scriptures THEMSELVES , & c. ? Judge , serious Reader ( says he ) whether it be S. Fishers own positive Assertion , that the Scriptures are a Nose of Wax ( IN THEMSELVES ) or whether that they are not RATHER made so ( or no better ) by such as wrest and twist them ? And then hath the wicked Confidence to call me Manifest Perverter , yea , and to take the LORDS Name in vain upon it too , saying , Surely the Lord will Rebuke him , and all perverse Opposers and Perverters . What a sad thing is it to have to do with Men thus hardned , false , and impudent , which I will shew to you as Clear , as I think it is possible , for any words to be Clear , in three Particulars . 1. This Man turns Perverter and Forger himself , and then he Charges me with it ; for First , to the word [ Scriptures ] he adds these words , [ THEMSELVES ] and [ in THEMSELVES : ] But if he , or any Man can find those words [ Scriptures themselves , and in themselves , ] as my words in that whole Book , I will never trust my own Eyes more : He first foystes in words of his own to serve his Design ( which yet they will not ) and then falls abusing me , as if I had abused Mr. Fisher : Oh horrible , add words of thy own , Geo ! and then Charge me with the Guilt of Perversion and abuse , if it were any such thing , as it would not be neither . 2. For though I did not say so much then , yet now I find I safely may , and will say it positively , That Sam. Fisher did speak or write it with Reflection upon the Scriptures THEMSELVES , as well as upon the Ministers ( who had the Scriptures ) going Round , &c. Yea , rather MORE ( if not only ) at that place in Respect of the Scriptures themselves , and do thou , G.W. bring him honestly off if thou canst . The Question then is , Whether Sam. Fisher's words ( which are his Assertion mentioned ) are of , or about the Scriptures THEMSELVES ? And 't is most certain , that no Man that is honest , and hath his Senses and Reason , and can Read English , that can doubt of that , when he says , WHICH Transcriptions and Translations , it can be nothing else but the Scriptures themselves ; Because neither we the Ministers , nor the Quakers have any other thing for the Scriptures themselves , But ONELY these Transcriptions or Translations ; If the Quakers have any other than Ours ( Commonly called the Bible ) which are all and every one of them , either Transcriptions or Translations ; let them tell us what , and which it is , if they can . And when S.F. says [ were THEY never so CERTAIN and entire by ANSWERING to the FIRST ORIGINAL Copies . ] Now , is it not most Manifest , that it is the Scriptures themselves he here speaks of ? Nay , is it possible to be any thing else , that can so certainly and entirely Answer the first Original Copies ? Oh wicked Man , blush at thy Impudence , that wouldst go about to make us believe that S.F. did not here speak of the Scriptures themselves ; Tell us what it was then ? To be sure thou wilt not say , that it was the Ministers Rounds , Confusions , nor yet their Interpretations , that either do , or might so Answer to the first Original Copies : for as to their Rounds and Interpretations , S.F. Rebukes and Scoffs at them . But were the Transcriptions , or Translations ( which are , and are onely the true Scriptures themselves , which we and the Quakers now have , that ever was heard of ) never so certain and entire ( says S.F. ) by Answering to the first Original Copies , yet are not Capable to be ( to all Men ) any other than a Lesbian Rule , or NOSE OF WAX ; Forasmuch , as even where Men have them , &c. Here he comes to bring his Proof ( as he thinks ) of this his Doctrine . 3. Besides the Absurdity that unavoidably follows such a Construction , as G.W. would put upon S. F's . words , not onely evinces it to be false , and not possible to be consistent with the rest of his words : But also shews G. W's . Construction to be so silly , that if it were right and true , yet would it not do the Quaker's a Pin's worth of Service : For , have not the Quakers the Scriptures as well as the Ministers ? And S.F. says , That even where men have them , ( even there , without excepting the Quakers themselves ) they are lyable to be wrested , and Actually twisted twenty ways by Interpreters . Have not the Quakers then got much by this , think you ? For their Brother Samuel hits them and all that have the Scriptures , without excepting One ; so that now the Quakers must of Necessity either deny themselves to be Men , or say , they have not the Scriptures : Or otherwise , if the Quakers are Men , and have the Scriptures , they are lyable to be wrested , and Actually twisted twenty ways by Interpreters , WHOSE Expositions , Sences , and meanings , ( which are as many and various as the Thoughts , Conceits , and Inventions of THE MEN are , who Comment upon them ) must be the Rule to such ( without excepting any one Quaker ) as can Read them neither in Hebrew and Greek , nor in their own Mother Tongues , If Sam. Fisher is to be Credited , either by us , or them ; and so still they must indeed own , what he Asserts , That the Scripture can be no Rule to THEM , but a LESBIAN RULE , nor is CAPABLE to be any other than a NOSE OF WAX. And if it can be no other to them that have the Scriptures , then certainly it cannot be so much ( or nothing at all ) to them that have it not , and never had it ; and S. Fisher himself tells us , that half the World has them not . Moreover , S.F. shews us in above Twenty several places , the impossibility , or unfitness of the Scriptures to be a RULE , by Reason of the variab●eness of them , the alteration and Change that hath been in them , even the Scriptures themselves . But that it is too long , you should have it here Transcribed ; do but look in the Second Paragraph of this Section , and in the Tenth Section fore-going : Now then , let the Serious Reader Judge , whether I have not most Reason to Cry out , What a Manifest Perverter is this Man ! The Lord Rebuke him , and all perverse Opposers and Perverters . What , cannot a Man of Skill ( as G.W. is ) in this Jesuitical Art of Directing the Intention , do ? Oh , Quakers ! REPENT , REPENT of such wicked doings ; lo●● upon it as you will , God and good Men will abhor such base , false , indirect , and impudent ways . I shall onely desire my Reader at his leisure to peruse a Book Printed some Years since , Entituled ; THE MYSTERY OF JESVITISM , Compare it with this Mystery of the Quakers , and consider how near they come . Good Wits ( you know ) use to jump ; the Jesuites and the Quakers ; we know the Jesuites are Wits , and you may be confident the Quakers will say themselves are no Fools : This I leave with them , and shall take my Leave of them for the present , till some fitter Occasion , and then it is not impossible they may have it in some other Mode , if they do not like of this . I did not study so much to please them as to deal Faithfully with them ; nor to flatter them , but to be plain with them : Be not over-Angry . Open Rebuke is better than secret Love. And sharp Maladies require sharp Remedies . Post-script . Kind Reader , THE Business betwixt the Quakers and Me is not so much Matter of Difficult or Intricate Dispute , as Matter of Fact , and of Ocular Demonstration , which is , or may be plain to the very Eyes or Ears of Persons of mean Capacities , as well as Learned : For my so oft reiterated Grand Objection against them all along my first two Treatises , is in effect no more but this , That they ( Quakers ) do not say , nor visibly produce ANY MORE , than the Baptist Churches , or the pretended Prophe● Muggleton does , or can do , whom yet they Condemn ; the one for FALSE , and the other as an IMPOSTOR . G.W. As in the Name of the Quakers , affirms , THEY CAN , AND DO , or to that purpose . Upon this , I require of him , his Proof , Evidence , or Instances : ( But as yet cannot obtain them , and some thin●● never shall . ) Now , this would be plain , and is not to trouble Peoples Heads or Minds with long and dubious Disputes , about nice School-distinctions , nor abstruse Matters ; WHEREFORE if the Quakers design to give any Real and Direct Answer to ME , they ought ( if they dare to go the plainest way , and deal honestly therein ) To set down on one side , what the Baptists and Muggleton say , and can visibly produce for themselves ; and on the other side set down what they ( the Quakers ) do say , and visibly produce for themselves . Thus the Work would be short , the Quakers need do no more at present than this , in Answer to the First and Second Part of the Quakers Quibbles ; neither do I desire any more at present of them , thereunto . And this I pray my Countrey-men and them to take NOTICE , how Reasonable my Request is , and how I desire to prevent ( that they may have no Colour nor Excuse for troubling the World and me with ) any more of their Impertinent , and silly scribling , not at all to the purpose . If they undertake to make any Answer to Me , NOTE , that this above is the main thing , and the very MATTER , they must Answer to , or else it is not an Answer to ME , nor to WHAT I have wrote , but an Answer to SOMEWHAT else , or onely an EVASION . And they cannot , now either honestly or justly refuse to do this , because G.W. hath already undertaken ( for them ) to give me a plain Answer to my first Treatise , ( which contains this , ) which he hath not yet done , as I have fully shew'd in my Second Part , where , and how he falls short . THEREFORE that they may not pretend Ignorance or forgetfulness , I do signifie it to them ONCE MORE , ( Because I would fain beat this into their Heads , finding they will not yet let it enter their Crowns , it constrains me to tell it them over and over again ) and do desire him or them that shall go about to write , to Read this , and take NOTICE of it in the first place . And then when they have honestly performed this ( that they may not pretend any Excuse ) Let them write what , and as much as they will about any other Matter in difference betwixt us , I hope it shall find no other than a kind Reception with me . THIS any plain Ordinary Man , that hath but the Common use of his Vnderstanding , Eyes , or Ears , may be able to see , or bear , and Judge of , viz. Whether , and what the Quakers do say , and visibly produce MORE than those others ( whom THEY CONDEMN ) do , or can say and produce . For otherwise no Man can certainly , and uncontroulably give and produce any BETTER ground for his Faith in Believing a QUAKER , than a BAPTIST , or MUGGLETON . But I doubt this is too honest and plain-hearted for the Quakers ever to do , and some think one may as soon expect the Great Turk to turn Quaker , as the Quaker to do this ; they knowing that this would touch them to the Quick , and lay them too open , however I lay it before them , and leave it with them , that all good and sober Men may see what Plainness , Honesty , Fidelity , or Christianity is in them . I would Advise all Persons , that are , or shall be concerned in Dispute with a Quaker , to bring them to this plain matter and Method , and hold them close to it : Or if any Quaker speaks to you , or would perswade you to come to them , or to turn to their Church or way , or does but Assert that their Church is true , and the Church of ENGLAND , or the Baptists Churches false , do but keep them close to THIS , and you shall , without doubt , quickly find them weary of you , and willing to leave that Discourse , sooner than by any other way or Arguments that ever I heard ; because these are plainer and easie to be discern'd : And this I here intimate to you , as my sincere and Cordial Advice . The Benefit of it you will be better able to Judge when you have Experienced it : Which that you may do , and over-come all Deceivers , Hypocritical Pretenders , and their Temptations , is my earnest Prayer . FINIS . THE Printer hath Omitted to put the Citations of the Quakers words , in an Italick , or different Letter ( as they ought to have been ) through the most part of this Treatise ; therefore the Reader is desired to take the more heed , which are their words , and how far the Citations out of their . Books go , that so he may not run into any mistake thereby : And that he would Correct these Errata's of the Press . PAge 4. Line 24. Read. of the. p. 6. l. 2. for was , r. were . p. 18. l. 13. for are , r. were . p. 9. l. 9. for as , r. at . l. 25. for ●s , r. are . p. 13. l. 12. add 15. l. 20. r. man's . p. 15. l. 24. dele in . l. 26. r. spoke or writ . l. 28. r. teachings . p. 17. l. 4. add or . l. 21. add of . l. 28. for , and motions , r. to the anoynting . p. 20. l. 3. r. whining-Spirit . p. 22. l. 24. r. they . p. 32. l. 12. where 's , r. where be . p. 40. l. 26. and , r. and the. p. 43. l. 32. r. To. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A62427-e560 * Acts 10.44 , &c. While Peter yet spake these words , the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word , and they of the Circumcision which believed were astonished , as many as came with Pe●●● , because ●●●t on the Gentiles also was poured out the Gift of the Holy Ghost ; For they heard them speak with Tongues , and magnifie God : Then answered Peter , Can any Man forbid Water , that these should not be Baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we ? And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of the Lord. And that this was common , see Acts 19.6 . When Paul h●d laid his hands upon them , the Holy Ghost came on them , and they spake with Tongues and prophesied , and all the Men were about twelve . 2 Cor. 12.12 , 13. Truly the Signs of an Apostle were wrought among you in all patience , in Signs and Wonders , and mighty Deeds . For what is it wherein ye were Inferior to other Churches ? * Isa , 29.11 , 12. And the Vision of all is become unto you as the words of a Book that is Sealed , which Men deliver to one that is Learned , saying , Read this I pray thee , and he saith , I cannot , for it is Sealed . A●● the Book is delivered to him that is not learned , saying , Read this I pray thee , and he saith I am not learned . Mica 3.6 , 7. Therefore night shall be unto you , that ye shall not have a Vision , and it shall be dark unto you , that ye shall not Divine , and the Sun shall go down over the Prophets , and the day shall b● dark over them ; Then shall the Seers be ashamed , and the Di●iners Confounded , yea they shall all cover their Lips , for there is no answer of God ; see Psal . 34.9 . Ezek. 13.6 , 7. * 1 Cor. 2 , 4 , 5. My Speech and my Preaching ( says the true Apostle ) was not with inticing Words of Mans Wisdom , But in demonstration of the Spirit , and of Power , &c. 2 Tim. 2.24 , 25 The Servant of the Lord must not strive , but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach , patient , in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves , if God peradventure will give them Repentance . See Gal. 6.1 . and Phil. 4.5 . See 1 Tim. 1.5 , 6. & 2 Tim. 2.16 , 17 , 18. Shun prophane and vain Bablings , for they will increase unto more ungodliness , and their Word wil eat as doth a Canker , of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus , who concerning the Truth have Erred , saying , That the Resurrection is past already , and overthrow the Faith of some . 1 Pet. 3.15 . But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts , and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a Reason of the hope that is in you , with meekness and fear [ reverence . ] 1 C●r . 14. ● . So likewise you , exc●pt ye utter by the tongue words significant , or eas●e to be und●●stood , how shall it be k●●wn wh●t is 〈◊〉 ? for ye shall speak into the Air. * And some of the Quakers quibble as much about the word Body , as thou dost about the word Christ , not being willing to own that Christ hath any other Body now then his Church , from Col. 1.24 . or sometimes , then the Bodies of the Saints , from Ephes . 5.30 . mistaken . Titus 3.2 , 3. To speak evil of no man , to be no Brawlers , but gentle , shewing all meekness unto all men ; For we our selves also were sometimes foolish , disobedient , deceived , &c. Notes for div A62427-e3280 * Rom. 12.5 . Notes for div A62427-e4050 John 5.31 , and 36. John 10.37 . 15.24 . Acts 2.22 . 36. Heb. 2.3 , 4. Prov. 27.5 . & 15.32 . Notes for div A62427-e8920 G.W. p. 18. Notes for div A62427-e73140 * Which is the most true and pure Language to a single Person , to write , that thou ORDERED me , or to say , that you Ordered me ? Are they not both alike as to the impureness of speech : Oh ye rare Linguists , that write by Inspiration ? † If you have bad English again , I cannot help that , you have it as such a School-Master and Dictator as G.W. sent it me : I would not take notice of this , but that the Quakers pretend to Infallibility , and have condemned o●hers for bad English , or not speaking it Grammatically . Notes for div A62427-e73420 * It seems G.W. says ( or to deny it ) was added : Whether it be so or no , and What G.W. meant he WAS to deny , or would IMPOSE upon him to deny , I know not ; but it is still the same as to the purpose I brought it , viz. their IMPOSING upon others , as if they had the Power of , or would new erect among them , A HIGH COMMISSION COVRT , for even there , their IMPOSITION was the same , that the Parties accused had the Liberty to confess or deny the Questions that were put to them . * Mr. Pen● Judas and the Jews is no more than a little above sixteen sheets in Answer to four and a h●lf , and this you must not doubt , but without disgusting their Sober Readers , it being a Quakers Method See also hi● Spirit of Truth Vindicated , it is but seventeen sheets in Answer to six .