A brief account of the most material passages between those called Quakers and Baptists at the Barbican-meeting, London, the 9th of the 8th moneth, 1674 / published for information by W. Mead ... [et.al.] citizens there present, from the best collection they could make by writing and memory ; also a copy of the charges against Thomas Hicks ; with a letter from a sober Baptist-preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the account of that meeting. 1674 Approx. 58 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A50496 Wing M1565 ESTC R29519 11164618 ocm 11164618 46470 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A50496) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 46470) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1426:10) A brief account of the most material passages between those called Quakers and Baptists at the Barbican-meeting, London, the 9th of the 8th moneth, 1674 / published for information by W. Mead ... [et.al.] citizens there present, from the best collection they could make by writing and memory ; also a copy of the charges against Thomas Hicks ; with a letter from a sober Baptist-preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the account of that meeting. Mead, William, 1628-1713. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 45 p. s.n. [London : 1674] Numerous errors in paging. Imprint suggested by NUC pre-1956 imprints. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Steele, Tommy. Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. Anabaptists -- Controversial literature. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-09 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-09 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Brief ACCOUNT Of the MOST Material Passages Between those called QUAKERS And BAPTISTS At the Barbican-Meeting , London , the 9th of the 8th Moneth , 1674. Published for Information , by W. Mead , J. Osgood , W. Shewen , E. Man , S. Newton , J. Claypool , W. Welch . Citizens there present , from the best Collection they could make by Writing and Memory . Also a Copy of the Charges against Thomas Hicks : With a Letter from a sober Baptist-Preacher to Jeremy Ives upon the Account of that Meeting . The Names of the Persons chiefly concerned being On the one side , George Whitehead , George Keith , William Penn , Stephen Crisp . On the other William Kiffin , Thomas Hicks , Thomas Plant , Jeremiah Ives . Robert Forguson a Presb. A Brief Account Of the most Material Things which passed at the last Barhican-Meeting , being the 9th of this Instant , between the People called Quakers , and Anabaptists . ALthough we could rather have chosen to suspend any Publication of that dayes Procedure , until we should have received a more compleat Account of the whole Matter depending ; yet since we find three false & imperfect Relations abroad , our Care to prevent the Peoples Mis-information hath prevailed with us to publish this Narrative . OUr Friends being conducted by one T. Plant , a Baptist-Preacher , to the Place by them designed for us ( which we must needs say , did greatly fr●strate our Expectation ( founded upon an accepted Article of Equal Place ) there being scarce Breathing-room allotted in all that great Assembly for much above Twenty of us : And there after some Difficulty setled , W. K. stood up in the Pulpit on the contrary side ▪ & by way of Introduction to the Matter , told the Auditory , That the Occasion of the Meeting was to Answer the Call of the Quakers upon them for Justice against T. H. his Proceedings in his late Dialogues ; and desired , that their Charge exhibited against T. H. might be publickly read for the Information of the People . Whereunto G. W. replyed , That there had been a great Report of his and W. P's knowing the Appointment of the former Barbican-Meeting , and designedly declining it , as being Fearful or Unable to make good their Charges against T. H. which was an absolute Wro●g done them , they being ignorant of any such Meeting , wherein they were concerned ; and that they were now come to make good what they had exhibited against T. H. W. K. If you were so refl●cted on , it came from non● of Vs that we know of . W. P. Where is that ( Vs ) limited ? W. K. To those concerned in that Meeting . W. P. If T. H. had been but as careful in not extending the Fault of any one call'd a Quaker against the whole People , as W. K. is in restraining the Word Vs , he had behaved himself more honestly , then he has done . But W. K. if those called Anabaptists belong to any part of that ( Vs ) we can prove several of them guilty in that Particular . W. K. If ye will produce them , we shall endeavour to do you Justice . W. P. That is fairly said . W. K. We think it convenient , that the Charge you sent us be read . W. P. It will not be so proper that the Paper we sent to you be read , being but a meer Index of the Matter charged , and therefore not readily to be apprehended by the Auditory ; but we have prepared another Paper , containing the same Matter at large , as in the Pages , referred to in the former , which Liberty we expresly provided for in the first Article by you accepted , as will appear by our Letter , which we desire may be read . W. K. & T. P. Then let our Letter be also read . W. P. That 's but Reasonable . [ And here both Letters were read , which are omitted for Brevity sake ; that done our Charge at length was produced and read up to the Auditory . ] W. K. I desire that T. H. may have Liberty to make his general Defence , without Interruption , to the Charge . W. P. We are contented . T. H. As to the first Particular , it contains two Parts ; The first , the Manner of Writing ; the second , the Matter . First , As to the Manner ; that is , by way of Dialogue ; which hath not only been used by Ancient and Modern Christian . -Writers , but also by some of the Quakers themselves ; witness W. Smith's Book , called , A Primmer betwixt a Father and a Child . 2. The Matter , which relates to my Opposing the Christian to the Quaker . I have Five Reasons to offer why I did so . First , They deny the Christ of God. [ The rest are omitted for brevity ●ake , and because they came not under any Consideration . ] By Quakers I mean such as G. F. E. B. G. W. W. P. G. K. S. C. &c. 1. They deny the Christ of God ; and this I prove out the Quakers own Writings . E. B. denies that Christ was ever visible to Men of thy Generation , meaning the Wicked : But the Christ of God was seen by wicked Men , &c. 2. From G. W 's Appendix to Reas . against Rail . Where he saith , That Jesus Christ , a distinct Person without us , is no Scripture-Language . W. P. Friendly Auditors , T. H. endeavours to justifie the Manner and Matter of his Writing against us : To the first , and what he saith in Defence of it , I must tell him , that he mistakes the Case ; for Will. Smith's Book was written Catechistically , in a familiar Way , to the Capacity of a Child ; but T. H 's Controversially , wherein he undertakes both to represent our Principles , and Way of defending them ; a●firming , that he had given nothing under the Name of a Quaker , but what was the Language and Practice of a real Quaker . And I shall prove that Discourse fictitious by several Instances , having never been , as we have Cause to believe , the Sayings or Practices of a real Quaker , which are as follow : Anab. May I not conclude , that the Reason why you so freely rail against , and reproach your Opposers , is only to secure your Credit with your Proselytes ? Quak. I cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it , Dial. 1. p. 72. A. Doth the Darkness obey this Light , or doth the Light obey it self ? Q. It obeyeth it self , Dial. 1. p. 66. A. But did Christ-without redeem Christ within ? Q. VVe say , it is the Seed to which the Promise of Redemption is , and which ONLY wants Redemption , Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is not this Seed within God ? Q. Yea , Ibid. A. But was not Christ without a meer Creature ? Q. Yea , Ibid. A. You said before , Christ is but one , and now ye speak as if there were two , the one God , and the other a Creature : How shall I understand thee ? Q. Indeed thou canst no●●nderstand , Dial. 1. p. 69. A. Is it not incredible th●● a Creature should redeem God ? Q. Indeed thou canst not believe , thy Mind being in the Darkness & Enmity . p. 70 , A. But canst thou give a rational Account hereof ? Q. Why demandest thou a rational Account ? I deny thy Reason ; we witness THIS Redemption , p. 70. A. Dost thou not give Ground to suspect ●ecei● ? Q. Nay , there is that in thee that would witness to me , it thou wouldst heed it , Ibid. A. I confess there is that in me that doth believe thou art full of Pride , Heresie and Hypocrisie : Is it this thou meanest bears witness to thee ? Q. I see thou art a Wicked Creature , and hast NOTHING of God in thee , p. 70. Again , A. Since you own not the Scriptures as A Rule ; of what Vse are they ? Q. They are a Declaration of the Saints Conditions , p. 79 , 80. A. Are they of no further Vse ? Q. Not to us , p. 68. Again , A. The Apostle saith , Let Woman be silent in the Church ; why suffer ye Women to declare ? Q. The Women to be silenced is the Flesh , p. 71. A. Hath the Flesh a Husband ? Q. Yea , Ibid. A. Who is it ? Q. The Devil , p. 71. A. The Text saith , Let a Woman ask h● Husband at home ; must the Flesh be instr●cted by the Devil in the Things of Religion . Q. Alas for thee , I comprehend thee , an● see thy Subtilty , p. 71. Again , A. Are you then as perfectly happ● as ever you expect to be ? Q. We witness Perfection , p. 72. A. What Proof is this to another Man ? Q. We say we witness it ; is not th● Proof sufficient ? A. But what if I believe otherwise ? Q. We shall not spare to stigmatize th● Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings , p. 72. A. Will this convince me or any other● your Perfection ? Q. Though it do not , yet thereby w● shall render you so odious to our Fiends , th● they will believe nothing that is spoken b● you against us , p. 72. A. Doth not this signifie a very dishone● and malicious Mind ? Q. We care not what you think , prov●ded our Friends think not so , p. 73. — We will give it out , that we have both an●swered and confuted our Adversaries , an● ●r Friends will believe us , which is enough us , Ibid. in fin . Again , A. But since it is not the Good of 〈◊〉 Promises that shall be fulfilled to Persons ●ter Death , it must be some other Thing ; ●ay what is it ? Q. We say , there is a Seed shall be sa●d Dial. 1. p. 74. Dial. 3. p. 37. A. But if this Seed only be God and Christ ; ●hat is that to you ? Q. Is not this sufficient ? p. 74 , 75. Again , A. What is the Soul ? Q. It is a Part of God , and of God's ●●eing , p. 65. A. Is not this as much as to say , the Soul● God ? Q. Yea , Ibid. A. If the Light be God , and the Soul be ●d ; how say you , God sets up a Light in the ●ul ? Doth he set up a Light in himself ? Q. We are dead to Distinctions , p. 65 , 66. Again , A. But dost thou indeed believe , ●at those Quotations set down in the former ●ialogues are Forgeries ? Q. I do so , Dial. 3. p. 2. [ These are some of his Fictions . ] T. H. I can prove it all ; I cannot bate them a Word ; some I will prove by their own Words , and others by Consequence . W. P. He hath shut out himself from all Consequences by affirming that they are no other then what the Quakers give both in VVords and Practice ; and if the Quakers Expressions , then not T. H 's Consequences ; but if Consequences of T. H 's Drawing , then not the Quakers Expressions : And though we might allow W. Kiffin , or any sobe● Man to draw Natural and Genuine Consequences upon us , from our Principles ; yet we cannot give that Liberty to T. H. he having already excluded himself . [ Note Reader , that upon the great Crack that was in the Meeting ( which caus'd a Consternation at that Time upon many of the People ) they descended the Pulpit to a more secure Place ; at what Time J. I. thus spake to W. P. ] J. I. Mr. Penn , Inasmuch as you see the House hath shown it self so infirm , and that the People are so tumultuous , and that it may be dangerous not to break up the Meeting , we desire that you would consent to the Dissolving of it . W. P. Ah Jeremy ! had T. Hicks Heen but half so careful of not giving Occasion for all this Bussle , there had been no Need of thy Desire or our Grant : But the People begin to be setled ( crying out , there is no Danger ) and there are Places secure enough for you ( pointing to another Gallery ) and we are so deeply concerned in Defence of our Religion , that we are not willing to give away this Opportunity : Therefore Friends and People , I do beseech you to be still ; doubtless you are come to hear , and you are the present Obstructors of your own Hearing : We are denyed to be Christians , and are rendred unfit to live amongst Men ; to some of you we may be Relations ; to others Neighbours or Acquaintance ; howbeit , we are your Country Men : Give us a Hearing for our Religion ; Our Souls , Bodies , and all what is near and dear to us , is concerned in this Matter : Therefore once more I intreat your Silence , that we may proceed . R. F. a Scottish Priest undertook to speak on the behalf of T. H. excusing him for writing Dialogue-wise . G. K. It is one Thing to write Dialogue-wise , and another Thing to write a Dialogue ; for many in England did take it for a real Dialogue . [ Of which several present bore Witness . ] R. F. George , You know that Minutius Felix and several Ancients , Learned Men , have writ Dialogue-wise , as Lucian and Cicero . W. P. Dost thou mention Lucian and Cicero , Heathens ? R. F. Cicero was a wiser Man , Mr. Penn , then you or I ; he proved one God admirably well . W. P. It seems then our Light is good for somewhat , seeing a Heathen by that Light , could so admirably prove a God. Besides , their Manner of Dialogueing was not like T. H's , who so unfairly and unjustly misrepresented our Expressions , Principles and Religion . R. F. The Matter we charge upon you , is , that the Quaker is no Christian . W. P. We , what We ? who art thou ? R. F. I am a Christian . W. P. So say we ; that is but a begging of the Question . [ Here some answered , He is a Presbyterian Minister . ] VV. P. A Presbyterian ? what ! a confederacy ? [ Then Jeremy Ives , call'd an Arminian-Baptist , stood up . ] J. I. You say right , Mr. Penn ; I must acknowledge , the writing Controversie in Dialogue is a very unfair Way , unless the greatest Care be taken in expressing the Principles of the Adversary in his own words , and according to the best sense they will carry : But let us come to the Matter of his Dialogues , wherein he opposeth the Christian to the Quaker . — Well , J. I. it seems thou dost grant the first . W. P. I am willing to come to the Matter , if you would but hear , and not thus frequently interrupt me one after another . The second thing we object , as he tells us , is the Opposing the Christian to the Quaker : His first Reason for so doing , is Our Denying the Christ of God. His Proof , as he calls it , was out of my Book , call'd Reas . ag . Rail . pag. 54. The words are these : Let it suffice to the sober Reader , that we do believe That Christ , who is God over all , blessed forever , did come of Abraham's Seed according to the Flesh ; that the Body prepared of that Line was his Body ; that what Sufferings befell it , were the Sufferings of Christ ; just as the Body is call'd the Body of Christ . This makes very well for us ; for we are so far from denying him , that we acknowledge him to be God over all , blessed forever . R. F. But you deny him to be a distinct Being without you . W. P. No such matter ; for we acknowledge him to be a distinct Being without us , yet not divided from his People . [ Here T. H. whispered , R. F. saying , A distinct Person without them , or to that purpose . ] R. F. But you deny him to be a distinct Person without you . W. P. Thou didst just now charge us with denying Christ to be a distinct Being without us : This alters the Case ; acknowledge thy Mistake , and I shall answer . [ About this time they returned to the Pulpit again . ] T. H. I will prove the Quakers deny the Christ of God , from G. W. his Appendix to Reas . ag . Rail . pag. 27. And must conclude that it is a Design of Satan , to keep some Men in Carnal Imaginations , and Dark Thoughts of an Human , Personal Christ G. W. Here T. H. hath dealt unfairly , as they have done in their Barbican Relation , by leaving out the last part of the Sentence , which is explanatory of the first part , where I further explain it in these words , viz. consisting either of Flesh , Blood and Bones like theirs ; or of Flesh and Bones without Blood , and so of God's right hand , as limited to that Remoteness , that they neglect to wait for Christ's Inward and Spiritual Appearance , and the Knowledge of God's Right Hand near them , to save and preserve them from Sin and Death . Are not those carnal Imaginations , causing this Neglect , Sinful ? J. I. T. Hicks will prove his Charges . T. H. I w●ll prove them All , at least Most of them . [ Here the People hooted them , as if he cryed Guilty to some of them . ] W. P. T. H. had Liberty to make his general Answer without Interruption ; and will ye not give me leave to make my general Reply ? Let me proceed to end this second Head , and I shall hear ●illingly T. H. of the whole Matter : But it cannot be fairly done to over-look my Answer to the first Part , and thus unhandsomly interrupt in the second ; This is not to act the Christian : If you will be but patient to hear my Reply , I do engage to hear T. H's ; and if this day will not serve , he shall have to morrow ; and if that will not do , he shall have the day called Munday , and so on , till the Matter be throughly debated . [ Here Reader , a great Number of indifferent People cryed , Go on , go on : But J , Ives , &c. refused to hear any thing further , unless our Friends would give way to them to insist upon the Proof of our denying the Lord's Christ ; which was only therefore withsto●d by us , because it was out of that Order and Method T. H. himself had laid down to proceed upon . ] W. P. If you will not hear my general Reply , and thus unhandsomly over-run the first Part of the Charge , promise us that after we have discuss'd this particular Head , that you will go upon the Charges by us exhibited , and we shall condescend to answer you . J. I. T. H. and several promised , Yes , yes , yes . W. P. Then go on ; and let T. H. make good his Charge if he can . [ Here J. I. put forward to speak for T. H. upon which W. P. called out . ] W. P. Tho. Hicks speak out for thy self : thou art the Man I have to do withal . T. P. Mr. Penn , you promised to hear another speak for T. H. because of the Impediment of his Voice . W. P. What aileth him ! His Voice is loud enough to Charge , but it feems it is not loud enough to Prove ; But if T. H. pleads that Infirmity , I am content another should go on . [ The People cryed , Hicks , Hicks , Hicks ; whereupon T. Hicks advanced . T. H. They that deny the Lord 's Christ are no Christians ; But the Quakers deny the Lord 's Christ , &c. W. P. I deny the Minor , viz. That the Quakers deny the Lord 's Christ . T. H. They that deny Christ to be a distinct Person without them , deny the Lord 's Christ ; But the Quakers deny Christ to be a distinct Person without them , &c. J. I. W. P. answer directly . W. P. I desire that T. H. may explain what he meaneth by the term Person . T. H. I mean , the Man Christ Jesus W. P. Then I deny the Minor , viz. That we deny the Man Christ Jesus . T. H. I prove ye deny the Man Christ Jesus H. W. saith ; That Christ was never seen with Carnal Eyes , nor heard with Carnal Ears , &c. J. I. He that denyes that Christ was ever ●en with Carnal Eyes , &c. denyes the Man Christ ; But the Quakers deny that Christ ●as ever seen with Carnal Eyes , &c. — G. K. I answer by Distinguishing : Christ ● God , was never seen with Carnal Eyes ; ●ut as Man he was seen with Carnal Eyes . J. I. But he was Christ as he was Man How then was not Christ seen with Carn● Eyes ? G. K. We are to consider , that the Term or Names Jesus Christ are sometimes applyed to him as God , and sometimes to him ● Man ; yea , sometimes to the very Body ● Jesus : But the Question is , Whether ● those Names more properly , immediate and originally belong to him as God , or ● he was before he took that Manhood upon him , or to the Manhood ? We affirm , Tho●● Names are given to him most properly a●● eminently as God , and less properly , y●● truly , as Man ; and least properly to his B●●dy , yet to his Dead Body . J. I. Where do ye read , that the Care● was called the Christ ? [ VVhereupon several grieved at such reverent Expressions , cryed out , Where d●● thou ever read that Christ's Dead Body ● called a Carcass ? ] W. P. I beseech you for the Lord's sa● that we may treat of these things as becom● Christians , with an holy Fear & Reveren● G. K. I prove that the Dead Body of ●●sus was called Christ from the Words of M●●ry , Where have ye laid him ? [ With this J. I. broak forth into a Laugh●er , with the Confederates . ] C. H. Are you not ashamed to laugh at ●lain Scripture-Words . G. K. But I prove that he was Jesus Christ before he took Flesh , Ephes . 3. 9. who cre●ted all things by Jesus Christ . J. I. George Keith , Is this to be a Respondent ? Are you a Schollar , and do not know better the Rules of a Respondent ? G. K. Yes , I will justifie is , that it is lawful for me to give the Reason of my Distinction . T. H. I will prove the Quakers to be no Christians . C. H. There are two VVayes of proving a Man no Christian ; the one by Principle , the other by PRACTICE Jeremy . J. I. They that say , That Christ cannot be seen with Carnal Eyes , and was never visible to wicked Men , do deny the Lord 's Christ ; for he was seen with Carnal Eyes , and by wicked Men. W. P. I distinguish upon the word Seen : VVicked Men might see him in that Bodily Appearance , and yet not see him to be the Christ of God ; they saw his Manhood , but did not see his Christsh●p . [ Here Reader , J. I. T. Hicks , &c. fell a laughing , and set many of their own Party into an indecent Noise ; at which W. P. thus reflected : ] W. P. Are you not ashamed ? VVill you pretend to prove us no Christians , and yet behave your selves so like Vnchristian Men , to laugh about matters of the greatest Moment . I will prove to you , that not all who saw his Manhood did see him as Christ . First , From Christ's VVords to Peter , when Peter confessed , that he was Christ , the Son of the Living God , viz. Flesh and Blood hath not revealed this unto thee , but my Father which is in Heaven ; Therefore Peter with a Carnal Eye could not have seen the Lord's Christ , much less VVicked Men. My second Proof is from the Apostles VVords , 1 Cor. 2. Whom none of the Princes of this World knew ; for had they known him , they would not have crucified him . Now Seeing and Knowing in Scripture are sometimes equivalent ; consequently , Christ as to his outward Appearance might be seen by Wicked Men , yet not seen or known to be the Christ . And that was the seeing plainly intended by E. B's VVords . G. K. Christ said , He that hath seen me , hath seen the Father ; but no VVicked Man hath seen the Father ; therefore no VVicked Man hath seen Christ , as such . [ Upon this J. I. according to his usual Practice flung up his Hand to the Company , bespeaking them for a Noise , expressing himself to this Purpose . ] J. I. This is a Distinction indeed ; just as if I should say when I see W. P ' s. Body , I do not see W. P. because I do not see his ●oul , or that which is more excellent in him . [ A meer Shuffle ! The Comparison being altogether unequal , as many replyed ; for it no way lessens the Distinction , nor the VVeight of those Scriptures above-mentioned ; As also , they that saw him as the Carpenter's Son , did not see him as the Christ of God. ] J. I. Is the Manhood a part of the Lord 's Christ ? W. P. Is this to prove the Charge of our denying the Lord's Christ ? It seems we must be here to be catechized , and ye will not answer us one Question . [ VVhereupon J. I. lifted up his Hands and Voice , as if he had sound out the Secret , crying to the People . ] J. I. Now ye see after what Manner they own the Lords Christ . [ Here some of their own Party gave him an Acclamation . ] W. P. Friends , I desire you to hear me : I shall answer J. I. his Question , if he will promise to answer mine . J. I. I will answer it . W. P. Then I here declare , that we do faithfully believe that Holy Manhood to be a Member of the Christ of God. [ Upon which the People cryed , Very well ; and W. P. directed his Question to J. Ives . ] W. P. VVas he the Christ of God before he was manifested in the Flesh ? J. I. He was the Son of God. W. P. But was he the Lord 's Christ ? I will prove him to have been the Lord's Christ , as well before as after . 1. From the Apostle Paul's VVords to the Corinthians : That Rock was Christ . Next , From Jude , where some Greek Copies have it thus , That Jesus brought the People of Israel out of Egypt . [ To which we receiv'd no Answer , though we often called upon him for it ] G. K. If they own him not to be the Christ , before he took Flesh , they take Part with the * Socinians . [ Here J. I. being manifestly at a loss , fell into a heavy Repetition of some former Passages , impertinent to the present Matter , with his so and so ; and what if I should say , &c. to the nauseating of the Minds of the People , which he perceiving , ●etook himself to this Question , as his last Stratagem . ] J. I. But do ye believe that Christ in his Human Nature is in Heaven . [ After the Discourse between VV. P. G. K. on the one part , and J. I. and T. H. ●n the other , about seeing the Lord 's Christ ; ● . VV. in this wise opened and referr'd the Matter to the Peoples serious Considerations . ] G. W. You have heard the Charge against ●s , and the Distinction that hath been made between Seeing and Seeing of Christ ; as na●ely , between the Spiritual , Saving Sight● the Lord's Christ ; and the Seeing of his ●tward Man , Person or Body : In this last ●ense , it could never be intended that it was ●t visible to the outward Eye ; But as he was ●e Spiritual Rock which all Israel drunk of , ●d as he was before Abraham was , and as ●●rified with the Father before the World be●n , and as Christ himself saith to Philip , He ●●t seeth me , seeth my Father also : And it ●ere only Saints or Children of Light , who could truly say , We have seen his Glory as the only begotten of the Father , full of Grace and Truth ; In all which Considerations or Sense of Seeing , the Lord 's Christ was only seen spiritually , and not with Carnal Eyes ; therefore we may leave this Matter with the People , seriously to consider of . [ To which J. Ives granted that it might be so left ; yet presently after , instead of proving us No Christians , he urged that Vnscriptural Question aforesaid upon us . ] J. I. Do ye believe or own that Christ is in Heaven with his Human Nature ? W. P. VVe do believe the Man. Christ Jesus to be glorified in Heaven . [ VVhich Answer J. I. refused to accept , because they were not the Terms of his Question . ] W. P. VVhat difference dost thou make between the Manhood and Human Nature of Christ ? J. I. None , if you mean candidly . W. P. Then I do mean and speak candidly ; we do believe that Holy Manhood to be in Heavenly Glory . J. I. Why did not you say so before ? [ The People said , It is enough . ] [ J. Ives immediately withdrew , and went his VVay . ] [ It being dark , we call'd for Candles to be ●●ght'd , in order to prosecure our Charges ; but some of them cryed out , Away , away , away ; no Candles to be lighted : At length we got some ; But Th. Plant appeared in the Pulpit , desiring to be heard a few Words , which were to this Purpose , directed to G. VV & VV. P. ] T. P. The Doors are broken , and several Things necessary to be repared , which , if the Meeting should not be broke up , the Carpenter cannot have Time to do it before our First-Day Meeting : And inasmuch as such great Meetings are attended with Inconveniences ; we desire that five of your Friends may meet five of our Friends , in order to consider about an other Meeting . W. P. It is your House ; we are not willing to be Trespassers , and must thus far acquiesce in your Requests , to withdraw at present ; only , inasmuch as we have been publickly wronged , it is but Reasonable we should be publickly righted . T. P. That is but reaso●able . VV. P. Then we accept the Offer of five of Side , to consider of a further Meeting . T. P. We take it kindly from you . W. P. Friendly Auditors ; Before ye de●art , I desire that you would be pleased to ●●ke notice , that whereas it hath been ob●●cted against us , we deny the Lord 's Christ , in order to make good T. H's Dialogue , in opposing the Christian to the Quaker , as if the Quaker were no Christian : We do here solemnly declare , that with Reverence we believe and confess to Christ , both as he is the Man Jesus , and God over all , blessed forever . And this further I would leave with you , that though we are jealous of expressing our Faith in unscriptural Terms , as , God-Man , a distinct Person without us ( which limits and confines him to a Remoteness ) Human Nature of Christ in Heaven , &c. yet you see we have declared that to be our Belief , which they acknowledge to be the true Sense and Meaning , signified by that Explanation they put upon their own Termes . Now do but weigh , how unreasonable it is , that for rejecting certain Terms , and those Vnscriptural too , we should so publickly , and with such Severity be Vnchristian'd to the World by T. H. &c. G. W. I also desire to be heard a little . Here hath been a great deal of words about Christianity ; But while the Name of Christ hath been often mentioned , there is not that Reverence to him shown among you , that ought to be in Discoursing about Christ and Christianity : It doth ill become Professors thereof to shew themselves in this Rudeness , Clamours and Confusion , as many here have done ; But since Christianity is so much talkt of , it is necessary to know , What Christianity is . It is not a Profession or meer Notion of Christ ( how true soever ) but it is a being like Christ ; He was Patient , Meek , Humble , Low in Heart , &c. in all which true-Christians are Conformable unto him , and Bear his Image . — We have been by these Interruptions diverted from pursuing our Charge againt T. H. who hath most grosly abused Vs , our Religion and Sufferings ; insinuating that they were for Carnal Interest , and Satisfaction of our Wills and Lusts , as if on this account our Friends offered up their Lives , and all that was Near and Dear to them in this World ; ( many Dying in Prison in New-Gate in the time of the Infection , and at other times , for bearing an open Testimony in their publick Meetings in this City of London ) Let All who are Serious & Impartial , judge concerning this manner , and how this man hath abused Us and our Sufferings , &c. And , seeing that a Dismission of the Meeting is desir'd by them , the Place being theirs , that they may have no occasion against us , I intreat that all our Friends may peaceably withdraw : And T. Plant , desire the same of them that belong to them . T. P. I desire that all may quietly depart . G. W. I desire also that those in the Galleries take time to go down gently that none be harmed . Further , That since we have mutually agreed to dismiss the Meeting , T. Plant , I desire that none of you , the Baptists , would stay after us , to render us Odious ; but depart with us . T. P. We will. [ And accordingly the Multitude peaceably withdrew , and dispers'd themselves . ] A Catalogue of some of those Things charg'd against T. H. either Wholely Omitted or ●●airly Examined in your ●●te Relation of the Barbican Meeting ; pointing you to the Particulars in the Books . General Charges . 1. A Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker [ yet made by T. H. ] viz. wherein , saith he , is faithfully represented some of the chief and most Concerning Opinions of the Quakers ; Together with their Method and Manner of Reasoning in the Defence thereof ; published for Common Benefit , Dial. 1. Title Page . 2. His Abuse of our Sufferings . His Discourse runs thus , viz. Q. Why will you not be free , and plainly tell me , what it is that doth influence and prevail with you to do and suffer as you do ? A. What dost thou think it should be ? Dial. 1. p. 75 . Q. May not the Satisfaction of your WILLS and LUSTS , the promoting your Carnal Interest , be your chief Motive and Inducement ? A. VVe deny the Flesh , and the Lusts : This is thy own dark Imagination . Q. May not you live in , and fulfil the Lusts of the Flesh , whilst you deny it in words ? I am serious with you , since your Opinion denyes any Eternal Advantage to be reaped by Persons after Death , in denying the Resurrection of this Body ; Must you not then have respect Only to somthing to be enjoyed here , as your Encouragement ? A. We are above the World and all its Encouragement . Q. This is no other to me then a Vai● Boast , because I am assured no sort of Peo●ple whatever , do more eagerly grasp af●ter the World then you do , insomuch tha● ( I believe ) your Carnal Advantages is o● great thing in your ●ye in your sedulou● Endeavours to augment your Numbers ; ● I mistake you , inform me what it is that do● animate you ? A. Thou seest we suffer in our worldly concerns for our Principles ; How then can this be our Encouragement ? Q. Though you may sustain some outward Losses ; yet , whether ye have not a way to augment your outward Gains by Loosing ? 3. Are you then as perfectly happy as ever you expect to be ? A. We witness Perfection , 1 Dial. p. 72 , 73. Q. What Proof is this to another Man ? A. VVe say we witness it : Is not this Proof sufficient ? Q. But what if I believe otherwise ? A. VVe shall not spare to stigmatize and condemn that Person that questions the Truth of our Sayings . Q Will this convince me or any other of your Perfection ? A. Though it doth not , yet thereby we shall render you so odious to our Friends , that they will believe nothing that is spoken by you against us . Q. Then may I not conclude , that the Reason why you so freely rail against , & reproach your Opposers is only to secure your Credit with your own Proselytes ? A. I cannot deny but that there may be something of that in it . Q. VVill you be so liberal of your Revilings , whether your Adversaries give Occasion or no ? A. It concerns us to render them as ridiculous as we can , and to make our Friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves ; And if this fail , we will insinuate by way of Question something that may be reproachful to them , &c. Q. But doth not this signifie a very dishonest and malicious Mind in you ? A. VVe care not what you think , provided our Friends think not so . Q. One of your Friends meeting with a Person that had writ against you , tells him , That if he did write any more against them , that they would print any thing against him that any Person would report , be it what it would . Is such a Practice a Proof of your Perfection ? A. Now thou slanderest us . Q. Do you believe the Scriptures to be the true Sayings of God ? A. Yea , so far as they agree to the Light in me , Dial. 1. p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 29. 5. Q. VVhen we make use of the Scriptures , 't is only to quiet and stop their Clamours that plead for it as their Rule , Dial. ● pag. 24 , 25. 6. That they ( viz. the Quakers ) render the holy-Scriptures to be of no more Authority then the Fables of Esop ; and esteem them inferiour to their own Pamphlets , 2 Dial. Epist . p. 5. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 29 7. That the Blood of Christ in their Esteem is worse then the Blood of a common Thief , Dial. 1. p. 9. & 38. Contin . p. 4. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 31. 8. That the Quakers have discovered themselves to be no other but the Spawn of that wicked Brood the Ranters , having licked up their Vomit , Dial. 3. p. 80. 9. That the Quakers owning Jesus Christ is indeed no other then a meer mystical Romance , 1 Dial. p. 10. Contin . p. 9. 10. That the Tendency of all the Quakers Reasoning about Instituted Religion is to debauch Mankind , Dial. 3. p. 65 11. That the Quakers appoint their Ministers afore-hand to speak in such a Place at such a Time : That their Meetings are only and principally to decoy , trapan and inveigle others , Contin . p. 66. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 27. 12. That our Principles improved , are destructive to all humane Society , Contin , p. 59 , 62 , 69. 13. His kind of treating us with reviling Language , viz. Cheats and Impostors , Lyars Malignant Errors , Hypocrisie , Deceit , Equivocations ; The VVay they arrived to that Degree of Perfection , was by Quaking , Foaming at the Mouth , with dreadful Roarings and Howlings ; and this , he sayes , the Devil influenced us into . Again , Delusions , impertinent Cantings , Non-sense , Blasphemy , the Devil's Slaves , Paganism , Satan's Snares , Pernicious and Perilous Errors ; they are inspired and influenced by that grand Impostor the Devil ; Blasphemous and Ridiculous Canting ; Enthusiastical ; they Decoy and Trapan ; your Idle , Non-sensical and Blasphemous Prating ; Inspired by Satan ; You are as Vile Impostors as ever were . Thus much of us and our VVay in general , besides his Knaves , Coxcomb , Impudent and Audacious Fellows , that he has called our Friends on Religious Conferences : Mad-men , Absolutely Infatuated , Distracted , Monsters in Religion , Dissemblers , Knave , Impudent Fellow , little Respect to Magistrates , VVilful Lying , the most implacable Enemies to the Christian-Religion , as vile Impostors as ever were , &c. to which is added Dial. 1. p. 76. Romish Emissaries : See Reas . against Rail . p. 170 , 171. Append. ibid. p. 7 , 8. C●u●t . Chr. p. 120. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 24 , 25. 14. He proclaims to the VVorld , that our Religion is a meer Cheat , calculated only to the service of the Devil , and their own Lusts , Dial. 1. pag. 62. 15. If a Merchant sell you his Goods , he must stay for his Money till you ( saith he ) be moved to pay it ; till which time you are under no Obligation in point of Duty . You say , 't is necessary to have things reveal'd to you , with respect to your Conversation in the VVorld , which are not to be found in the Scriptures , no not by Consequence : How then may your Creditors be assured it will be revealed to you , to pay what you ow them ? Scripture and Reason would , and do teach you herein , but these you must be dead unto ; who knows then what may , or may not be revealed to you ? 'T is not unknown that a Revelation hath been pretended to excuse the Payment of a just Debt . And why may not that which hath been ( even amongst you ) be again ? But is it reasonable that Men should be baffled out of their just Rights by such unjust and wicked Pretences ? Continuat . pag. 69 , 70. Charges against Particulars . 1. That Jesus Christ came to seek and save a lost God ; and that the Seed of God in Man only , and nothing else is taught , &c. Contin . p. 49 and 66. 2. That Nich. Lucas , a real Quaker , was moved to declare his mind thus , ( to one I know very well ) Thou mayst burn thy Bible , and when that is done thou mayst serve God as well without it ; And if thou hast a mind to have a Scripture , thou mayst write as good a one thy self , Cont. p. 5. & 60 , 71. Dial. 3. p. 3. & 86. 3. Chr. I have formerly detected you of several pernicious Opinions concerning the Scriptures , the Light within , the Person of Christ , and the Resurrection of the Dead , &c. which I presume by this time you have considered ; VVhat say , you thereunto ? Quak. I say , the Plagues and Judgments of God will follow thee , G. W. Contin . p. 1. Dial. 3. p. 85. Q. Ap. Ans . p. 30. 4. His false Reflections upon Stephen Crisp , Dial. 1. p. 44 , 45. 5. His several Abuses of W. Pen , cited in his Book , call'd , Reas . against Rail . Cont. p. 52. Dial. 3. p. 1 , 2 , 4 , 10 , 13 , 41 , 68 , 69 , 70 , 72 , 73 , 74 , 80 , & Epist . The Contradictions charg'd upon T. Hicks , Counterf . Christ . detect . p. 3. 48 , 49 , 50 , 51 , 52 , 53 , 54. Further we have several Exceptions against your Manner of Appointment , and Management of the Meeting at Barbican . VVe also Except against your late Book , called , The Quakers Appeal Answered , as not making good the Title thereof ; And because many Things are overlook'd , for which you say the Appeal was made , and several Things unfairly cited . Which are but some of those many things we have further to object against T. Hicks and his Abettors , when the●e are particularly and fully considered & determined in publick . And we having thus far condescended , we expect a publick Meeting without delay fairly to examine and discourse Matters ; which when done , we are willing to come to the Doctrinal Points ( which are chiefly in Controversie ) concerned in T. H's three Dialogues ; our very Aim and End being for Truth and Righteousness , and that things may be mannaged in Good Order . George Whitehead , George Keith , William Penn , Stephen Crisp , Brother IVES , I Was sorry to see Thee appear in the Pulpit ( I will not say Cock-pit ) as an Assistant to one that would prove the Quaker No Christian We saw him foyl'd in his first Attempt , to prove his Way of Writing ; For , as Mr. Penn truly said , There is a vast Difference betwixt a Dialogue composed for Information , and one for Disputation ; In the first I only write my own Judgment , in the other an Adversary's . But moreover , I wonder thou wouldst put that Ensnaring Question to them ( which was best answered with Silence ) viz. Whether the Humanity was a part of Christ : For what if they had turn'd another upon thee to the same Purpose , thus , Whether that which was crucified , and satisfied for Sin , was a Part of Christ , or whole Christ ? Would not the same or more Absurdities have fallen upon thee , if thou hadst directly answered ? Brother , let us leave dividing of Christ ; and put not such Queries , which bring Inconveniencies upon both Parties . Again , Thy Way to prove them will as easily prove us all No Christians ; for I suppose thou wast running to this , That he that denies a Part of Christ denyes the Whole ; but the Quakers deny a part , Ergo. Then why may not another reason thus ? He that loves not Christ , denys him ; he that keeps not his Commands , loves him not , and so forward to this , That Non-conformity to every Command of Christ is a Denying of Christ , then must the Presbyter . and Independents be No Christians for denying Baptism ; and some Baptized Churches must be Antichristian for denying Laying on of Hands on all , and others for not keeping Saturday-Sabbath ; But God forbid that we should thus proceed to Heat henize one another for Diversities of Apprehensions concerning the Nature , Offices or Ordinances of Christ . T H. has Dialogued so long , till he has fill'd the Quakers Meetings in these Parts : And for ought I see , the more We Strive , the more They Thrive . It s strange we cannot observe the Counsel of our own Bible , to let them alone ; for if they be not 〈◊〉 God , they shall not stand . Let us contend against all Faith that leads to● an Unholy Life , which doubtless the Apostle intended , when he bids us Contend for Gospel-Faith , and not Doubtful Disputation . One Thing more I noted , which was not fair , viz to set Women at the Door of the Disputation , to sell a Pamphlet to exasperate the People against the Quakers ; verely , he that did it , acted too much like a Poch●r , which if he can , will wound the Hare before he courses her : I was so troubled at it , that I desired the Woman to remove , or forbear shewing till the Dispute was past ; but she was so Zea●ous in her Business , that I fear , she was hired : Whatever the Design was I know not ; but truly the Substance of the Pamphlet was very Weak ; for by the very same Argument he may prove all our Pedigree from the Pope , as well as the Quakers ; but the Sheet it self smelt of the Spirit of Persecution , which is the very worst Part of Popery : But no more at present , only this , If thou hear of a Disputation again , do thy Endeavour to have it out of the City ; three or four Miles Distance had freed you from that Rabble , which I perceive will alwayes disturb and make utterly unprofitable all Meetings of that Nature . From Octob. 12. 74. Thy Loving Friend and Brother W. L. Postscript . FOrasmuch as the Baptists , &c. h●●● publickly ( though falsly ) accused a●● charged us with Denying the Christ of G 〈…〉 the Worth and Authority of the holy Scr●●tures , and other things of the like Natur● we do ( for the stopping of the Mouth 〈◊〉 Slander , and informing the Simple ) decl●●● in the Presence of God , That we do high Honour and truly Own the Lord Jes●● Christ , as he is born witness of in the ho●● Scriptures , both as he is God , and as he too● upon him Flesh , and fulfilled the Law in th● very Body prepared for him above Sixte●● Hundred Years ago , in which he resist●● and overcame the Divel , and became a compleat Sacrifice for Mankind in general . And further , In Simplicity and Plainne●● of Heart we own him in all his Offices reco●ded in the holy Scriptures . And concernin● the Scriptures , we Esteem them and Ow● them as the Words of God , spoken by the Spirit of God , moving in Holy Men , Prophets , Christ , his Apostles and Ministers and that they are profitable for Doctrine Reproof , Correction , &c. yea , we truly value them above all the Books extant in the VVorld , and do hold it our Duty to live that Holy Life they call for and exhort to ; and they were written for our learning , that we through Patience and Comfort of the Scriptures might have Hope : And we wish with all our Hearts , That whole Christendom , who Honour them with their Lips , might come to live that Holy Life which they exhort to ; For it is not the bare Profession of God , Christ and Scriptures , and other Heavenly Things in VVords , that availes any thing ; but a living a Godly Christ-like Life , is the Sum of Christian Religion . W. S. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A50496-e290 * And there is some Cause for Suspicion ; for a profest Socinian confederated with them , and sat very near the Pulpit .