Rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis, apologeticis quatuor The rustick's alarm to the rabbies, or, The country correcting the university and clergy, and ... contesting for the truth ... : in four apologeticall and expostulatory exercitations : wherein is contained, as well a general account to all enquirers, as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike and most truly Christ-like Chistians [sic] called Quakers, and of the true divinity of their doctrine : by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes, viz, John Owen ... Tho. Danson ... John Tombes ... Rich. Baxter ... by Samuel Fisher ... Fisher, Samuel, 1605-1665. 1660 Approx. 3534 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 458 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A39574 Wing F1056 Wing F1050_PARTIAL Wing F1046_PARTIAL ESTC R16970 12599552 ocm 12599552 64129 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A39574) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64129) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 316:20) Rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis, apologeticis quatuor The rustick's alarm to the rabbies, or, The country correcting the university and clergy, and ... contesting for the truth ... : in four apologeticall and expostulatory exercitations : wherein is contained, as well a general account to all enquirers, as a general answer to all opposers of the most truly catholike and most truly Christ-like Chistians [sic] called Quakers, and of the true divinity of their doctrine : by way of entire entercourse held in special with four of the clergies chieftanes, viz, John Owen ... Tho. Danson ... John Tombes ... Rich. Baxter ... by Samuel Fisher ... Fisher, Samuel, 1605-1665. Owen, John, 1616-1683. Danson, Thomas, d. 1694. Tombes, John, 1603?-1676. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. [60], 160, 200, 192, 228 [i.e. 244], 48, 16 p. Printed for Robert Wilson ..., London : 1660. "An additional appendix to the book entituled Rusticus ad academicos ..." (48 p., 5th count) has special t.p. and was also issued separately; "Christ's light springing" (16 p. at end) has English and Latin in columns, and was also issued separately. Part 1, page 64 has print missing in the filmed copy. Pages 60-87 photographed from Newberry Library copy and inserted at the end. Reproduction of original in Yale University Library. Marginal notes. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2003-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-09 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-09 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion RVSTICVS Ad ACADEMICOS IN Exercitationibus Expostulatoriis , Apologeticis Quatuor . The Rustick's ALARM to the Rabbies : OR , The Country Correcting the Vniversity , and Clergy , And ( not without good cause ) Contesting for the Truth , Against the Nursing-Mothers , and their Children . In four Apologeticall , and Expostulatory Exercitations . Wherein is Contained , as well A General Account to All Enquirers , As A General Answer to All Opposers Of the most truly Catholike , and most truly Christ-like Christians , called QVAKERS , and of the true Divinity of their Doctrine . By way of Entire Entercourse held in special with Four of the Clergies Chieftanes , viz. John Owen D D. late Dean of Christ's Church Coll. Oxon. Tho. Danson M.A. once Fellow of Magd. Coll. Oxon : since one of the Seers for the Town of Sandwich in Kent . Iohn Tombes B.D. once of Bewdly , since of Lemster . Rich. Baxter , Minister at Kederminster . Another Eminent Master in this English-Israel : Which Four Fore-men hold forth the sense and senseless Faith of the whole Fry , and write out the Sum of what is , or is to be said by the whole Fraternity of Fiery Fighters against the True Light of Christ , and its True Children . Alias , An Universal Vindication , or General . Iustification of the Sincere Practices , and sound Principles of That faithfull People , in such Points as the Priests oppose them in ( hinted in the Epistle , and handled in the Book ensuing ) against the Collegian Calumnies , and Clerical Cavils of All , who Causelesly Quarrel with them . By Samuel Fisher , Who sometimes went astray , as a lost Sheep among the many Shepheards , but is now returned to the Great Shepheard , and Overseer of the Soul. I Kings 18.27 . And Elijah Mocked them , and said , Cry aloud , for he is a God , &c. Numb . 25.17 , 18. Vex the Midianites , and smite them , for they vex you with their Wiles , &c. Isa. 57.3 , 4. Against whom do you sport your selves ? Against whom do you make a wide Mouth ? &c. Ethnici , non Credendo , Credunt , Christiani , Credendo , non Credunt . Error Minimus in Principio fit Major in Medio , Maximus in Fine . LONDON , Printed for Robert Wilson in Martins , near Aldersgate , 1660 TO THE READER . TO premise nothing at all to such a Bulk , as seems to promise by its Great Quantity to have something of weight , worth , or Good Quality in it , were to erect a spatious City with no Gate into it , an extream on the other hand ) well-nigh as absurd , as that of his , who , building the little City Mindus , is said to have made it's Gates bigger then the City . To praefix a prolix Epistle to a large Book may prove as Cumbersome to a Conscientious , as 't is Ridiculous to a Rationall Reader to make many long Proaemiums to a short one . As therefore I shall forbear lashing out into any long or loud Proclamations of what profit may accrue to an unprejudic'd Peruser of the following Fabrick ( Vino vendibili non opus est Haederâ ) So shall I ( yet not for custom , but convenience ) not altogether omit , in way of Initiation , or Introduction , to premise First , some words more generally to All sorts of Readers . 2 dly , more particularly some to All plain Country People . 3 dly , 2. or 3. words to All proud-Spirited Priests , and Scholastick Rabbies . 4 thly , some few to the presen● Powers of these poor Priest-ridden Brittish Nations . If● Then , as for the Book it self in the 4. parts thereof , which this relates to , Know All people that herein ye have the tall Academicall Sons of Anak , to whom the Seed of Jacob seem but as Grashoppers , uncapable to grapple with their greatnesse , taken down , or that Great Goliah's head cut off with his own Sword , by the Power of God in the heart and hand of a despised Country Stripling , who coming from following the Ewes great with young , and perceiving him in pride to disdain , and defy Gods Armies , in the name of the living God went forth to meet him in answer to his Arrogant challenge & with a Stone & Sling in his hand , brought down the uncircumcised Philistine to the ground . For herein , By way of plain Reply to sundry Books of those four men aforesaid , viz. I. I. O's . Two English Treatises , which Treat ( pretendedly ) For , but ( in very deed ) Against the Scriptures , as to That very Authority , and Integrity of their Hebrew and Greek Texts , he pretends to plead for ; together with his third Tractacle of Latine Theses Pro Scripturis , Contra Fanaticos ; in which not without a Legend of as loud Lyes of the Quakers , as Lewd Laughings , at the Lords Spirit and Light within , in opposition unto both he as vainly adventures to evince it , that the Scripture ( Alias the outward Letter ) is the True●t Light , the only most firm Foundation and perfect Rule of all saving belief , and holy Life , that it is in Esse both Reali and Cognoscibili , yea properly , as to Name and Thing , no lesse than the very Living word of the Living God. II. T. D's . Two Trifting Tractacles , Term'd 1. The Quakers Folly manifested , &c. 2. The Quakers Wisdom not from Above , &c. occasioned Originally by 2. or 3. Publick Disputes at Sandwich , held with him and his Adherents , by three of them , viz. R. H. G. W. S. F. III. I. T 's Nine Sermons . Tru●t into one Treatise ( untruly ) Term'd , True Old Light Exalted , &c. and not only Back't , but Thrust out also by R. Baxter , in his Blind Zeal against that same unblinded People . To which said Reply is Annexed an Appendicular Postscript , Abridging into a closer compasse many of those Absurdities , Self-Contradictions , Confusions , Riddles and Rounds the Rabbies run into unawares , in their unwary wrestlings against the Quakers . And a Positive true Testimony , according to the Externall Letter , to the Internal and Eternal Light , both in Latine , wherein it was first written , and also in English , whereunto it is ( for further service ) Translated . Herein I say is the Dimn●s of the Divines , and meer Humanity of the Doctrines of the Academicall Doctors discovered : Also the Q●a . with the Innocency of their cause cleared against the Insolency of the choicest Champions that contemn them , and the Divinity of their Doctrines vindicated from their clamours , in the points hereunder specified , viz. Anti-Papism ; Liberty of Conscience ; Having the faith of God without respect to the persons of men ; Iustification by the righteousness of Christ alone ; The Scripture , and what it is ? as to Name and Thing ; The Word of God , and what ? as to Name and Thing ; The Light of Christ in the conscience , as to its universality , and sufficiency , and bow It , and not the External Text , or Letter , is the only firm Foundation of the Churches Faith , the only true , Touch-stone of all Doctrines , the only Right Rule of all saving Beliefe and holy Life ; The Infallible Spirits Infallible guidance of all that follow him , as their Guide at this very day ; The generall Grace and Love of God in Christ to the whole World , & every Individual in it , and how it is Great , Universall , True and Unfained , notwithstanding ( through each perishings-man , own fault ) very few in it are saved ; Election and Reprobation , how it is of two Seeds only , absolutely , and of Persons , only conditionally , as born of , and growing up ( respectively ) into the Image of those severall Seeds ; Perfection , as to freedom from sinning in this life ; And such other , for which We are as unjustly , as uncessantly Assaulted . About which points , it 's hard to say whether the Quakers Opponents do more Oppose them , or Abuse them ( by misreporting them , as holding far otherwise then , they do , in those and other of their Tenets ) to the World. For when we declare against Persecution , and cruell forcing of all men to uniformity in meer outward formes of Religion ( by which men , for fear , conforming to do , and to say they believe what they believe not to be truth , are more made hatefull Hypocrites , then faithfull Christians ) and for Liberty of Conscience , as that without which Now no Government , in either Church or State , can ever stand long unshaken ( those Powers being ever more feared ( if not abhorred ) then either lov'd , obey'd , or honour'd by the tenderest of their own people who touch , and under penalties impose upon them , in that part ( i.e. the conscience ) which is 〈◊〉 tender , and in which being trod upon all people , when they can help themselves , will turn again , but those Iu●t ones , whose way it is , when they are kill'd , to make no resistance , Jam. 5.5 . Then they tell people we are against all good Government , and Authority , settled Ministry and good . Orders in the Church , and such like . Whereas and all good Government in States to Suppresse unrighteousness we own , and good Orders in the Church too , denying that only , which they call Order , who , meerly under that Name and Notion of Decency and Order , have fill'd the Nations ( call'd Christian ) with a numberless multitude of Ceremonies and Customes , which are Vain , and create nothing but Confusion : Also they tell people we do but barely insinuate that of non-persecution to be our principle , that we may be let alone till we grow numerous , and get outward Power into our own hands , that then we may rise , and cut throats , and by force and cruelty subject all people to our wayes . T. D. ( deducing it , as is seen in the book ensuing Thus from a certain Quakers drawing of his Sword , who had no Sword at all about him ) The truth is ( quoth he ) the Qua. now declare their intentions to propagate their perswasions by the Sword. Whereas we live in that Light which leads to that Love , which abhores all cruelty , and 't is the dark places of the earth , in which themselves dwell , that are full of the habitations of cruelty : and ( could we once be by others as candidly consirved and credited , as t is by us conscientiously and clearely declared ) so far are we from that pernitious principle of persecuting ( for conscience sake , though blinded ) any men called Christians in any Nations , that ( were it as 〈◊〉 in our hands to effect , as it is in our very hearts to wish the contrary ) nor Jew , nor Turk , nor Pagan , much lesse Christian ( so c●●●d ) whether Papist , Prela●icall , Presbyterian , Independent , Baptist or any other ( behaving themselves , as peaceably & subjectively , as we do , to all civil Laws in civil things ) should ever be in the least mole●ted ( more then by words of love , whether smooth or sharp , to win them to the truth , th●● their souls may be saved ) in any meerly Spirituall , or Religious matter , but in all Ecclesiasticalls ( so far as 〈◊〉 consistent with , and not destructive to any other mens ) have in their consciences ( where Christ alone is King ) truly , and fully , as much Liberty as our selves ; even All people to walk every one in the Name of his God , as we in the Name , and Light of the Lord our God , from henceforth , even for ever . And because we say some Truths , and teach some Doctrines , which ( to their misunderstanding minds only , wherein they wrest everything the wrong , and even the worst way they can , and as they sound it out in words of their own , which are none of ours ) seem only to Savour of Popery , viz. Because we assert the Good Works of Christ in his Saints to be necessary to their justification , who cannot be justified by any , of their own ; They not only charge us as joyning with Jesuits , and Papists , but oft-times also ( as far as they dare in such a thing as they have no proof of ) they down rightly pronounce us to be such . Whereas how neere of Kin they are in their Own , and how none are more contrary then Our Tenets to the Pope , and how well T. D. proves the Author of this Epistle in probability to be a Jesuit ( as he falsly affirms ) is to be seen in Sundry pages together of the following Work viz. from p. 47. of the 1 Exer. to the end . And because we make mention of Christ in us , and the Righteousness of the Law , as necessary , in order to Salvation , to be perform'd and fulfill'd in our own persons ( as Paul does Rom. 8.4 . ) though we mean no other Righteousness then the same that is in Christ , and is wrought in us by no other power , then that of Christ , and that same Christ too , of whom the Scripture speaks , that To him give all the Prophets witness , Act. 10. That in his Name , and through faith in his Name alone , who ere believeth shall receive remission of sins ; then which Christ , and his Name , there is no other under heaven given among men , whereby they must besaved ; They 〈◊〉 us both to God & men , as denyers of Christ and of his Righteousness , & of Justification by Christ , alone : Witness one Ackworth of Rochester , who was once heard , by the writer hereof , deprecating & declaring against the Qua. in these words to God himself , in his publike Prayer viz. Above all things Lord ( quoth he ) deliver this poor city from the Qua. they are a peole Lord , that deny God , deny C●rift , deny the Righteousness of Christ , deny Justification by Christ alone . Whereas , As it was at that time by this Author prefered ( though not permitted ) to be presently and publikely proved to his face , on behalf of that people , whom he told lyes on to the Lord himself , that they own God , own Christ , own Christs Righteousness , and own justification by Christ alone : So against all the Priests , who in their several Parishes misrepresent us , as going about to Establish our own Righteousness only , & not Christs to our Justification ( among whom T.D. is in that point the most gross false accuser of us ) as it was ( clearly enough , to men not minded to be blind ) by word of mouth at the disputes at Sandwich , and hath been since by George Whiteheads printed Replyes ' to T. D ' s. printed misrelations of us in that matter ; so is it abundantly proved more at larg in the first Exercitation from p. 80. to the end thereof , that ther 's no people do more fully , or so truly disclaim their Own , as dung and filthy rags , and stablish Christs Righteousnesse alone ( which , as wrought by Christ in his Saints , T. D. makes no better then dung , loss and filthy rags ) to both the Justification , Sanctification and Salvation of sinful men , from All their sins , then the Quakers do , who are by the Parish peoples Blind Leaders most abominably belye● to them , as denyers of it . And because we do not with the misty Ministers ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the meer Letter ( which the Apostles were not Ministers of , but of the Mystery , of the New Testament or the Spirit , 2 Cor. 3 . ) own the bare External Text of Scripture ( which themselves confesse to be corrupted , vitiated , altered and adulterated in all Translations ) to be ( at lea●t in their Heb. and Greek Transcripts of it ) entire in every Tittle , Letter , Vowel , Syllable and Jota , & the self same without any losse , as it was at the first giving out ; but say it hath suffer'd much losse of more then Vowells , single letters , and single lines also ; yea even of whole Epistles and Prophecies of inspired men , the Copies of which are not by the Clergy Canoniz'd , nor by the Bible-sellers bound up in the Bulk , and compasse of their modern Bibles ; and specially because we own not the said alterable and much altered outward Text and Letter , or Scripture , but the Holy Truth and inward Light and Spirit , which the Scripture it self testifyes to , which at times that Text and Letter came from , to be , as to Name and Thing , and that properly , the Word of God , which is Living , the only firm , infallible Foundation of all Saving Faith , and invariable Right Rule of holy Life , the most sure , sound Balis , stable Standard , True Touchstone , for the due Tryal , determination and discerning of all true Doctrines of Christ , from mens Tradition , and cunningly devised Fables ; Therefore they cry out against us , as Siders with Jews , Papists , Athiests , and All Scripture haters , as decrying the due Authority of the Scri●tures , as such , by whom Satan assaults the sacred Truth of the Word of God , in its Authority , Purity , Integrity and Perfection ; and as Opposers of the Scripture , and the Word of God , as to both Name and Thing ; witnesse J. O's . Epi●t Dedicatory of his doings again●t the Quakers , to all young Divinity Students , p. 28.30 . and elsewhere , as is seen hereafter . Whereas how ( though Christ , and his living Word in the heart , which the Scri●ture exalts also , is Exalted onely on the Throne ) yet the Scriptures are owned by us in their due place , and how ( though Christs Light and Spirit alone in the Conscience is , according to the Scripture , asserted to be the only most perfect Rule , Foundation , &c. and not the ●etter ( as they darkly Divine ) yet the Letter is acknowledged by us , full as much as it is by it self , to have been written by men moved of Gods Spirit , and to be useful , profitable , servicable , &c. to be read and heeded , and how all-J . O's . lying Calumnies against the Quakers , as concerning their carriage to the Scriptures , and the Word of God , and the Foundation and Rule , &c. are clearly wiped away and cashiered ( as well as T. D's foul & false Aspersions of them in his Narratives , as to matters of Fact , are in the 1st . part of my 1st . Exer from p. 18. to p. 38. ) is to be read at large throwout the 2 d. and 3 d. Exercitations , which consist well nigh wholly in vindication of the Truth , against their cloudy conceits about the Scriptures . And Moreover because we ( as the Spirit also in the Scripture bids us , Jam. 2.1 . &c. ) have not the Faith of God with respect of persons , as they are high in this world in the Church where Christ is the one Master , and all the rest are Brethren ; Therefore they misrender us , as proud , obstinate , uncivil , churlish , discourteous , disrespecting , contemning all mens persons . Whereas we truly honour all men in the Lord , and what we do in denying those vain Complemental Customs of the Nations , as vailing the Bonnet , or putting off the Hat , which is part of the outward habit , and bowing & cringing to the ground , when we come before men , and in our keeping to that plain , yet not True , Antient and proper English Language of Thee and Thou ( which is used to God himself ) to each single person , great or small , when we haue to do with them ( who have no law of man neither whereupon to imprison and punish any for doing herein as we do ) we do it ( God is witness , and will once Iudg between us and them ) not in a Spirit of Pride , Arrogance , Disrespect , Disdain , or Contempt towards any man , but in Conscience to the Lord , that we may stand clear before him , who forbids us to bow to the likene●●e of any thing in Heaven , Earth , or under the Earth ; and in humility onely , and that fear of the Lord , whereby we are bound to depart from all conformity to all such fond foolish fashioning of our selves according to our former Lusts in our ignorance , and to This World , which we are chosen out of : A more clear discovery of the unsuitablenesse of which Ceremonious services of men to the Saints of God , is made ( as in the Scripture it self ) so in the 1st . of the ensuing Exercitations , from page 40. to page . 47. And because Christs Headship , Kingship and Supremacy alone we ( together with the True Church , which is in God the Father , and in Christ Iesus the Light ) can own in the Court of Conscience , and in matters purely Spiritual , and of meer Religious and Soul concernment , and not any meer mans ( much lesse the Popes or any Priests in such Sacred Secrets ) therefore are we mistaken , and misranked among such as are utter enemies to the present Kings Supremacy in these Dominions . Whereas we do , according to what the Spirit requires of us , in all civil causes and cases between Man and man , submit our selves to every Ordinance of man himself ( I say in such cases ) even for the Lords sake , whether unto the King , as Supream , or to such as are sent of him to be a Terrour to evil doers , and a Praise to them that do well . And if those , who have the Sword in hand , shall turn it against us for well doing , and so act against the good will of God , or impose , by Gods permission , upon us contrary to our Conscience , even there , where we cannot obey actively , we are willing to bear patiently , without violent Resistance , what God will leave us to suffer from the hands of such , as should protect us , not reviling , nor threatning , nor cursing , but committing our case in quietness to him that Judgeth Righteously , and our Souls to him in well doing : And that Passive deportment must be and is judged by All to be Aequivolent to that Active obedience , which others yeild , for fear , to what lawes soever are made among men . And because we are no Strikers , or Fighters , as some men ( called Christs Minister's , alias Servants ) are , though no such should be , 1 Tim. 3.3 . 1 Tit. 7. with Carnal Weapons , the Weapons of our War-fare , being not Carnall , but Spirituall , nor such as theirs , among whom are found Warrs and Fightings , which come from the lusts that War in their Members , Iam. 4.1 . and cannot with good Conscience to God ( as to Military matters ) appear in Arms again●t any ; Therefore are we prejudged , as not submitting to , nor owning Magistracy , as we say we do . Whereas we do truly own , and are subject thereunto : Witnesse the Tenour of a Paper given out from among us , under many hands , some while since in that particular , A true Copy whereof is here Printed in the Margent . * And because we cannot Swear at all , but forbear it in obedience to Christ's and his Apostles words , who ( intimating Math. 5. a permission under the Law to Swear ( so be men did not forswear , but perform to the Lord their ( then lawful ) Oaths , for to Swear by any but God , or to Swear by God in ordinary Communications was as unlawful then as now ) * sayes unto us , Swear not at all ( i.e. in such cases wherein men might Swear in old time , who then might not in common Communication ) and above all things Swear not , no not by any Oath , but let your Communication , i. e the whole of it ( before Rulers as well as others ) be Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay , least ye fall into Condemnation , for whatsoever is more than that commeth of evil , Mat. 5.33 , 34 , 35 , 36. Iam. 5.12 . Therefore are we , in some places by well-nigh Scores at once put in prison , as persons suspitious of Treachery and unfaithfulness to the present Powers . Whereas , howbeit we decline all Oaths for the Reasons aforesaid ; yet , as it hath been own'd by the King himself as satisfactory to him , as if we did Swear , if we can say we are , or promise to be Innocent , as towards him ; so we both do , and can declare our Present , and Promise Future Integrity to Him , and the present Government ( reserving our Consciences to the Lord alone in Spiritualls ) in all cases of civil Concernment ; And As our Promise binds us , more than their Oaths do them , who●make as little Conscience to keep the Oaths they take , as they do to take whatever is imposed , and for Fear , Swear themselves To and Fro into the Favour of every Form of Government , as it stands its time upon the Stage : So our Practice will Preach out our Performance of what we Promi●e , and that performance prove our words , once passed , to be of as much worth and weight to us before the Lord , as their Swearings by his Name are , who are found utterly out of his Nature . And because we talk of an universal Redemption by Christ's coming intentionally to save All men , though ( through their own default ) All are not , but few only actually saved ; They pittyfu●●y propound us as denying Gods Eternall , unchangeable Decree , and his Praedestination , Election , Reprobation , and such like . Whereas how the universality of his grace appearing , and bringing Salvation truly and intentionally to All , but that most put it from themselves , as the Iews did , Act. 13. is no way inconsistent with , but rather stablishing Gods everlasting , immutable Councell concerning men , as to Salvation and Condemnation , it 's most clearly demonstrated in the Fourth Exercitation from p. 87. to p. 152. And because we call All men to look to the Light within their own consciences , and to take heed to that , as ever they intend to enter into Life , assuring them , that by the leadings of that Light , if they will , they may come to God , and work out their Salvation , and escape the Condemnation that is to come : They make people believe , as if we held that all men in the Fall had of themselves a Free will , and a Power of their own ( without God ) to save themselves , and without any speciall , spirituall or supernaturall grace or gift of God , even by their own Naturall Light , which flowes from the Principles of meer Nature , to help , deliver , and Redeem themselves , and as if we did destroy all that free grace , great goodness , and rich mercy of God , of whose mercy and grace only it is , and not of themselves , that they can be saved . Whereas we ascribe all the glory of our own , and every mans Salvation to God alone and his meer mercy and free , grace , which is , and alone is sufficient thereunto , and not to any man , nor any thing at all in man , that is of man , and not rather the free gift of God to him , saying that 't is not in man , without the gift and grace of God , either to guide , or to bring himselfe to Salvation , nor in him that wills , nor in him that runs , but in God only , that shewes the mercy : And That Light of his in every mans conscience , even in the heathens , which these men , in the cloudiness of their own consciences , which come not to the Light that 's in themselves , call naturall , we say is that speciall gift of Gods own grace , every degree of which is sufficient to help , heal and save him , that takes good heed to it , and to lead him forth that follows it ( as it increases on him that does so ) to the Light of Life : Yea 't is a measure of that Spirit of his , a manifestation of which is given to every man to profit withall ; of that Spirit that strives with all men ( but that most resist it in their stiff necks , and uncircumcised hearts ) that convinces the whole world of Sin , Righteousness and Judgment , though all are not thereupon converted by it , same measure ( at least one Talent ) of which is given to the most unprofitable Servant , till , ●for not trading therewith , it be taken from him ; 't is somthing of that goodness of God , which ( though men will not know it , and few are led by or follow it , while it drawes them , yet does lead them , and though they refuse to return , and so fare the worse for it , does its own part , so far as to draw them to Repentance : Yea 't is , though in men , yet of God , and no less then his own Law in their own hearts , of which Law the Letter sayes ( though men , till spiritualized by it , are carnall , and sold under sin , yet ) is spiritual , holy , just and good , whereby every man is a Law to himself before God , who wit Judge him , and either accuse , or excuse , acquit , absolve , clear , justify , or condemn him , in the day when he judges the secrets of men by Christ out of the book of their own consciences ( once to be opened , in which thereby both Jus and Factum , Right and Fact is manife●t ) according to the Gospel , that 's preached in it , and by it in every creature under heaven , as well as to somely mans ministry , & to all by some outward ministry or other also , and is not any meer Naturall Faculty ( as our Naturalists call it ) that is as Naturall to men , as his mind it self is ( as J.O. mindlessely asserts it to be , ) for then it must be de Es●e homini , so Essentiall to a man , that he neither is , nor can be truly call'd A man without it ; whereas ( though Man in the Fall is in indeed so short of the man made at first after Gods Image , or of Man restored back again thereunto , that he is ( comparatively to such ● one ) but as the ●east of the field , that perisheth , yet ) in the Fall he hath all that is Essential to him , as a man , and flowing ex principirs naturae ; But ( and this may be an Addition to the other Arguments in the Book , if it be not touch't upon therein already ) Gods Law or Light in the consciences of all men , which we call them to , though given of God in some ( not the same ) measure at first to All , so that universally every Individual or hath , or hath had somthing of it , yet , through mans not using it well , may ( he yet remaining Essentially a man be totally taken from him ) as the Talent from the s●othfull ) and darkness come upon him , and be left to walk in utter darkness , and to stumble in that dismall night , of which its said then , and of that time , he that walketh in it , knows not whether he goes ; and to stumble , not only because he hates the Light ( as he did before , while yet he had it ) but because now he hath it 〈◊〉 , and because now there is no light left in him : Of which Light and of its universality and sufficiency to save such as seek God in it , and how it 's a supernatural , spirituall gift , and grace of God to all men , where it is , and not the naturall faculty of mans understanding only ( as our Opponents pittiful●y pra●●e to prove it is ) is most plain●y proved in the 4th Exe●citation from p. 49 to p. 194. and made more apparent in the Appendix also . And when we assert the Ministry of Christ to be an infallible Ministry , and the Spirit of God , by which his Ministers are ever guided in the work of his Ministry ( for they are out of his Ministry or Service , and in the Devils at that time , who ever are at any time guided by any other ) is an infallible Spirit ( for God hath no fallible Spirit that we know of ) and that all the directions , leadings and guidances of that Spirit are infallible ( which Spirit hath no fallible guidance ( as J. O. little lesse then seems to intimate he has ) that we know of ) and consequently that All , who are led by that Light or Spirit are ( so far ) infallibly led , and that all , and only they are the Sons of God , that are led by that Spirit of God , and that God hath Children at this day in the world , and so consequently that at this day , his Ministers and Children , who are all ●aught of God , are infallibly taught as they attend , to that Anointing , that 's given to be their Teacher , that leads into all truth , which Spirit of Christ also whoever hath not ( as his teacher ) is none of Christ's : Then they bely us as saying of our selves that we , as of our selves , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as J.O. flouts ) are infallible . Whereas we say no such thing at all of our selves , nor of any men , but that All men , as in themselves , and in the Fall , are no more then fallible : But because men in the Fall are fallible , liable of themselves to erre still ( as they are erred already ) to their own ruine ; Therefore God in his love hath sent his Son a Light into the Nations , So to be his Salvation to the ends of the earth , to lighten them that sit in darkness , and to guide their feet in the way of peace , out of the crooked paths they are in , in which who walks can never know peace , and that the Light and Spirit of him , who is the Light of the world , the Lord , that Spirit , which is Truth it self , and no Lye , is lent ( as the Letter speaks of it ) to every man , & even that True Light that enlightneth every man that comes into the world , given to lead him back infallibly unto God , from whom it comes , who can be known out of that , no more then the Sun can be seen by any other Light , then what shines from it self , in which Light , wherein he looks after the Lost , whoever look after him are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and shall find that Salvation of which he says , Look ye unto me and be ye saved All ye ends of the earth : Of the Infallibility of which Light and Spirit , and of its guidance of all Christ's Ministers , and Children , and of all men also , so far only , and no further , then as they are led by it ( as of old , so at this day ) there is much said in answer to those Ignes fatuos , that fain the contrary , in the 4 Exercitation from p. 1. to p. 47. And because we call on men ( as the Scripture does ) to perfect holiness in Gods fear , and to cleanse themselves from all uncleannesse of Flesh and Spirit ( then which there is no more ) as a thing attainable by Christs grace and Power only improved ; as a thing not only Possible to be done here , as God requires ( who calls not for Impossibilities from his People on pain of Eternall Punishment , if they Perform it not ) but also needfull and necessary to be done here , if they mean to do it at all , sith ( as Themselves say with Vs against the Pope ) there 's no Purgatory in the World to come ; They commonly accuse Vs of saying , in A Self-Vaunting , Proud , Disdainfull , Vain-glorious Boasting Way over all other men , of our selves , that we are perfect , and ( as J. O. impudently intimates ) that we impudently Glory in it , that we are free from not only Hypocrisyes , Fraud , Wickedness , Lyes ( which it seems he can't Glory yet that by the Grace of God , he is yet free from ) but even from all other , even the very least evils , and so would have us have Punitiones , Incarrationes , Punishments , Prisons , &c. for so saying . Whereas we use not to bear Testimony to our selves , but to the Truth of Carist , and though by the Grace of God only We are what We are . and His Grace ( to whom alone therefore We give the Glory , and not to our selves , who have nothing but what we have received , and Glory not ( as some do in Sin and Shame ) nor boast ( as they do in evill doing ) of anything that 's Good , As if we had not received it ) is not in vain , so , but that our walking is such that they can't accuse some of us Justly of the least Evills , yet we Testify the Truth rather as a Doctrine to all , Teaching not what our selves are ( what ere we are ) so much as what both We and All men should be , and also may be by the Grace of God , who is not wanting to us , if we be not wanting to our selves ; and must be also , ( viz. ) Deniers of all Ungodliness and worldly Lusts , and Godly , Righteous , & Sober Livers in this present world ) or else it had been better men had never been born , seeing for them that loose their day for it here , it 's too late to begin that life in the world to come , where there is no Purgatory , nor place for Repentance , though it shall be then sought carefully with Teares , Pro. 1. Math. 25. Luke 13. In this Doctrine , as in many more , if they do not Maliciously mis-represent us , yet at best they most Miserably mis-understand us , not well heeding these things that hereunder follow . 1st . That the Qua. themselves hold not out , as attainable such a Perfection of Holynesse , Grace or Glory ( as to degree ) here , as admits of no addition of a greater degree of it hereafter , for of the increase of Christs Image , Glory and Kingdom there is no end ; but such a Perfection only , as is without unholiness , or committing any Sin , or Transgression , as whereby there is a perfect Defacing and Destroying in them , the Works , & the Old Contracted , Ugly Image of the Devil ; Anger , Hatred , Envy , Wrath , Blood , Cruelty , Uncleanness , Drunkenness , and all such like Lustings to Evil ; which whoever arē not purged from before , can never enter into the Kingdom of God , and Christ , which is that Incorruption , that Corruption cannot Inherit : Full Deliverance from the doing of which Evills , is a true perfection of Holiness ( according to the measure of it ) though not so great a measure of it , but that hereafter there may be more ; as Adam in Innocency had no Sin , yet not so much of God , Good and Glory , but that it might possibly be Augmented : The Elect Peter writes to received the end of their Faith , the Salvation of the Soul , which is from Sin , or nothing , by him , who was manifested a Light into the world , to this end , even here , to Destroy the Works of the Devil . 2dly . That we hold not out a Condition of full Freedom from Temptation , which if any be without , he is wise enough to keep it to himself , and not to prattle of it to the Priest , who ( for all his Preaching against it ) can't with patience hear of turning yet from all Transgression ( And lest any should think of me , as more then I yet am , I am not yet that man ( who ere he is ) that 's free from Temptation . ) but in our several measures , what we witness in our selves , by the Power of God , and Gospel of his Light and Grace , viz. a Liberty ( not to Sin , which is that some long for , but ) from Sin , and a freedom from following any Lust , and an Ability ( such as we found not while we were where Priests & their people are ) to walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , and to be saved from Sinning , though not from sins Objecting it self to us , and from Transgression , though not from Temptation : So it is a True State of Perfection , and a State of True Perfection , or else Christ himself , who was often Tempted , Matth. 4. yet never sinned , was not Perfect . 3dly . That we hold not ( as there are some that sillily suppose of us , saying the Qua. say they are so perfect they cannot Sin ) an Impossibility of those mens sinning , who , while they sin not , are Saints [ for the Denominations of Sinners , and Saints do tollere se invicem , so as he who is a sinner , while such , while sinning , is no Saint , as T. D. dotes , and he who is a Saint , or Holy One , clean from sinning is no Sinner ( specially not as David was , while in his Guilt , and Filth of Murder and Adultery , as T. D. dreams also ) for no Sinner is a Saint while sinning , nor is any Saint a Sinner , while a Saint , or Holy One ] but a Possibility only not to sin , as men take heed to themselves by the Word , and Light : Non posse peccare is one thing , and Posse non peccare is another , and the Divines can see it so sometimes , when they please , though they will not own their own Distinctions when the Qua. make them : They say men must needs sin while in this world , ( measuring others by themselves , who are yet sold under sin , and so under a necessity of committing it , and falling under the Law of it ) and because we own them not in their Extream , which of the two is farthe●t off from the Truth , they dream we are in the other , so as to say men after they once one the Light , cannot sin : Thus the Vile Person & Churl , whose Instruments are Evil , destroyes the poor with lying words , when the needy speaketh right things ; for we say that men , though they ought not to sin , yet may or may not sin , according as they heed the Light , or heed not the Light , which is the Power of God against it , by which , Psal. 119.9 . a young man , heeding it , May cleanse his way , not Must necessarily , whether he heed it or no : Let him that standeth take heed left he fall : To say men must sin is one thing , can't sin is another , may or may not , as the Light is kept to , is the Truth . 4thly . That we Doctrinally hold not out such a full Freedom , and Attainment of Po●er over Sin ( per Saltum ) at once , or at the first Step of a Person from the Darkness , wherein he dwelt , toward the Light , so that after once Converted to the Light only , and to wait in it , there 's a full Deliverance witnessed without any more ado ( as our National Ministry , who are oft more willing to mistake us , then rightly to understand us , make it out in their muddy medlings against the Qua. before their people ) but that those that turn to the Light in their Consciences , which Reproves and Condemns even the most Secret Sins in the flesh , and obey it , and abide by it , waiting patiently on the Lord ; in the Way of his Judgments , while the Spirit thereof , and of burning passeth to the purging away the Filth , Dross and Tinn , to those only ( as well as to all those at last ) Judgement shall be brought forth into Victory over the Sin that 's Judged , & the Righteousness of the Law fulfilled , by the Power of Christ in them , bringing it near to such as Thirst after it , and Revealing it in the Light , from Faith to Faith , Rom. 1. And the Salvation of God from sin , which shall once come , and not tarry , to such as thus quietly hope and wait for it , Isa. 42.12 . 13. Lam. 3.26.27 . We say not it's the work of meer man , nor of a day , but the Work of Christ , which in due time , he will , without failing and being discouraged in it , perform and bring to passe ( for the Battle is not ours but the Lords ) in such as stand still , beholding and following him in the leadings of his Light ; to the Rooting out of all Iniquity , and Establishing of Equity in the Earth ; to the accomplishing of the work of Regeneration , or begetting men back from the Image , and Nature of the Devil , and life of sin , through the Death and Blood of Christs Cross , which being but begun in the first Act of Conversion to God ( which our Prie●ts , to the deceiving themselves , and people , think is Regeneration enough for them , and to serve their turn , though their turning to God ( as they call it ) be not yet from Darknesse , Sin , and the Power of Satan to God in his Light neither , but from some one empty dead literal Form of Profession or other , to another ) they look for the fulness of ▪ as to freedom from sin no sooner ( though ( for shame ) they say not so much in words , because they would seem at least to be at odds with the Pope about that Point ) then in some certain Purgatory in the world to come ; not mattering to be Holy here , as God is Holy , Merciful , as he is Merciful , to walk as Christ walked , to be as he is in this world , in whom there is no Sin , to be pure as he is pure , as men are required to be , and till they are 't is Condemnation because of sin , and as such as sing with him on Mount Sion , Rev. 14.1 , 2 , 3. are , and must be ; but contenting themselves to be , as ever learning and teaching , never learned nor taught , so ever purifying , though never purifyed : And if the work were as truly doing too ( as 't is pretended to ) there were then ( according to 1 John 3.3 . ) some true hope , because a hope that it would once be done ( therefore we own the lea●t weakling that is waiting on in his measure of the Light of Christ in his own Conscience , as one that is in a truly hopeful way , in which keeping he will once come to something , though a little child , who if he do sin [ as he knows he should not ] knows he suffers for it , yet is not without an Advocate , 1 Iohn 2.1 , 2. ) But Alas , what hope that the work of purging from sin shall ever be done , where its never rightly doing ? as it is not among the Priests , and their people , who are not only out of the Light , in which alone life comes , but also out of the love of it , and so at odds , and falling out with it , as to Blaspheme it , by the Names of Figment , Fancy , Fanaticism , &c. [ as J.O. does ] and out of the faith of the thing also : The work is not so far as in Fier● yet , while men , in their Fiery Spirits , are fiercely Fighting against the Light , which only can do it , and believe not it is Possibly to be done ; What hope then is there that ever it should come forth in Facto esse ? Having 1st . given this Generall Account , to All Sorts , of the Work hereafter following , and of what Points are therein Principally propounded to Publick View , and how We hold them ; a Word or Two more Particularly to Some sorts of Readers . Know then , 2dly . All ye Honest Minded , Well-meaning Persons , who possibly may conceive your selves not much concern'd in Viewing over such a Volumn , as Relates so Directly and Immediately ( as this mostly seems to do ) to the Learned Linguists , and Academical Scholastick Rabbies , who get as much Skill , as their Skulls can Scrape together , in Scrawling , and Scribling against each other , about their Hebrew , and Greek Texts , and Transcripts of the Scripture , the very Literal Sense of which ye ( who may know the Truth nigher hand ) can Ken no otherwise , then by their ( confessedly ) untrue Translations ; Know ( I say ) that howbeit this is intended mainly as an Alarm to All Sleepy Shepheards , that lye down to Sleep , loving to Slumber ; and so consists of Various matter , much of which may Run beyond their Reach , who are neither by Nature , nor their Nursing Mothers meer Natural Nurture , Skil'd any further then their Mother Tongue , nor yet by the Spirit , in the things of the Spirit neither , yet here is some matter ( and that not a little ) of such a Nature , as is no lesse plain to be understood , then Profitable ( not to say necessary ) to be Learn't by the Lost Sheep , that have long Slept with their Drowsy Shepheards , & in the Dream of their Night Visions , in the Dark and Cloudy day of their dimm Divinations have bin Scattered from their own Border , and driven to and fro , from Mountain to Hill , from Form to Form , Profession to Profession , Tradition to Tradition , and from one outward Observation to another , and caused to Erre after them , and wander together with them up and down , in dry and parched places , in the Thick Wood of their own Thoughts , in the Wilderness of their own Wretched Wisdom , where they have found no Sound Health , nor Reall Rest , or Refreshment , but rather more Wounds and Weariness to their Restlesly Wounded , and Wearied Souls . Be not therefore bolted out by the fight of sundry passages of it , that are pend on purp●se to the Pecular Purpose of others , from beholding that in it , which , if Perused by you in as much purity , as it was pen'd in pitty to you , may be of pretious use to your selves : For herein also is an hand lent ( in love to the lost ) to lead you in ( O poor Perishing Parish people ) by the dore , above which you and your Clergy have been long Climbing up ( as high as Heaven with Capernaum ) in your self-conceived , Luke-warm , Laodiceau Literature , but are so far from obtaining entrance into that Pure Pasture , which Christs Sheep partake of , who hear his voice , that in stead thereof ( except ye yet Repent from your Powerless Profession , of what ye are out of the true way to the true Possession of ) ye shall all ( as assuredly as Shee was of old ) be brought down to Hell. Yea , herein all along throughout the whole work , lyes as it were a little line before all , save such as love to look beside it , laid for any that will lay hold on it , to lead them , not from , but to , and by , and together with the Letter of the Scripture , to the Light of him in the heart , which the Letter came from , who is the only Light that leads throughly to the Life ; even his Own Life , and to Himself , who is the Truth , Way , Door , Light , and Life it self of the Sheep , and looks after them that have gone astray from Him , to gather them back to look after himself alone for Salvation in his own ; and to learn of him alone , who alone hath the Words of the Eternal Life , which all the foresaid Word-stealers and Truth-sellers , while refusing to stand in his COUNCEL , and to receive the Word from his own mouth , are ( so living , so dying ) Vniversally shut out from for ever . Moreover , if any , either through Mis-understanding of my honest meaning , or Male Construction of my good Intention therein , shall be offended at my medling so much as I have done , [ specially toward the latter part of the second Excercitation ] in matters , that seem to any , who are more seriously addicted then most Schollars are [ whose life is wholly lost in looking after littles ] so Immomentary to the Life of God , as the meer External Text of that Eternal Truth , that 's therein talk't on , and those Hebrew Points , Tittles , Vowels , Accents , Letters , and Syllables of it are , which I am , in not a few pages together , well-nigh totally taken up in , and for a time taken off by from Points of more Immediate Pertinency , and truer tendency to Salvation ; Their unjust Offence at me shall not so far Offend me , but that , for their sakes , I can and shall here stoop so low , to take that Stumbling Block out of their way , as to tell them and the whole world the Naked Truth how it was with me in that particular , and the Real Reason why I went so far in a talk ( comparatively to the Truth ) of Toyes and Trifles , and was so taedious to my self , and such as look't long since for an end of this labour , and wasted so much paper in a work so worthless ( as it may seem to some ) as is fitter for J. O's Iuniors to be busyed in at their Schooles ( where Pueri tam Puerilia tractant ) then for men cal'd Ministers , to medle too much with , whose wisdom lies more ( if not in forgetting ) yet at least in forgoing frivolosities , that are so Remote to the Souls Redemption , then to fight so fiercely and foolishly for them , as J. Owen does , whom ( neither For , nor Against , but About them only ) I have much to do with , so that bear with me in it ( if it must be deem'd my Folly ) the Ground of which piece of Folly is as followes . In His Threefold Thing I found J. O. 1st . in the Theses of his Latine Thoughts , Glorying not a little in being ( on behalf of the Collegians , among whom he was then a Chieftane ) intru●ted , as he talks , with the Task of contending for the Text of Scripture ( not so much against the Foes , as , under that name , against the Truest Friends of both the Text and Truth ) as the Word of God properly , as to Name and Thing , and not only consequently , but most expresly also both there and in the 1st . of his two English Treatises , the only most perfect Rule of all Belief and Holy Life , Stable Standard , True Touch-stone for Triall of all Truth , Doctrines , Spirits , Speeches , yea it s own also , and the Sole sure Foundation for all True Faith to stand on , and be discerned by , from Falsehood , Fable , and meer Fancy ; and not only so but also Tiring himself , in his Taedious second Treatise , to evince the Entireness and Integrity of the said Text , to every Apex and Tittle , as at first it was given out , without Addition , Ablation , or Alteration in the least ●ota or Syllable , p. 153. in the Trans-scripts of it in the Original Languages ( how ever confessed by him to be Corrupted , and Egregiously Adulterated in all Translations ) and insisting so uncessantly , eagerly and earnestly in proof of the said Integrity of the outward Text , as for hast to outrun all his own Reason , and to Reject also the Uncontrolable Reasons of All others to the contrary , putting also so great a stresse upon that poor Punctilio of the Hebrew Punctation , as , from a self-conceived Imagination , and dangerlesse Affrightment , to stickle for its Antiquity , again●t those that on better grounds Iudg it to be Novelty , and not Coaevous with the Consonants , with such stric●ness as to deem all Divine , Saving Truth lyes at stake , and is Eternally Liable and likely to be lost , if it be not , as he conceives in these particulars : for ( as is seen at larg in the book ensuing ) he Trembles to think what will be the Is●ue , how desperate will be the con●equences of such a conclusion , that the Text-mens Hebrew and Greek Transcripts , are by mistake Mis-transcrbed in a Tittle , and that the Points , Vowells , and Accènts were added to the Hebrew Text by the Tyberian Mastorites ; A Firebrand is brought into the Churches Bread Corn ( quoth he ) All 's utterly undon for ever as to any true Distinct , Sound , Certain , Saving Knowledge of God , or understanding of his Mind & Will , without either Remedy or hope of Recovery , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ther 's No firm footing nor Foundation to stand on , No abiding Bottom at all to build on , No Right Rule for the Faith and Obedience of the Church to be Regulated by , No Word of God remaining uncorrupted , No more means to be seen of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all Sacred Truth , Epi●t . p. 25. Nay though it be yeilded by his Antagonists , that howbeit the Copies are Corrupted , Altered , and found Various in their Lections , as to the meer Letter , nevertheless the saving Doctrine , as to the Substance of it , Remains Sound and Entire , in the Copies of the Original , and the Translations that remain , yet this is no Satisfaction to him , he deems that the Saving Doctrine can't continue entire and uncorrupt , and that their is no Relief against the Absolute Perishing of All Truth one of the World , without any Rule or Measure of Iudging and Determining any more of it , or Principle of Discovery ; or Medium of its Rectification or Recovery , if every Tittle , and Iota be not Preserved Entire , or on supposition of any Corruption to have befallen the outward Writing , p. 17. 18 , 19. Yea upon such Supposition , that we have not every Letter , Tittle , Point , Iota , Syllable , Accent , &c. as 't was in the Beginning of its Writing , without Alteration by Ablation of any Apex , or Addition of the Hebrew Punctation , Gods Promise , Isa. 59.21 . Mat ▪ 5.18 . Fails , his Care of his Word and Church Fails , he leaves it in uncertainties about the things that are the Foundation of all that Faith and Obedience he requires at our Hands , so that we know not where to lay ● Sure Foundation of Believing , yea 't is impossible we should come to any certainty almost of any Individual Word or Expression , whether it be of God or no , p. 55. Yea p. 212. out of Jo. Isaac , He that Reads the Scripture without Points ( and so must they Read it , ●oho did Read it before Points were ( say I ) as they did before Ezraes dayes , if the Points were not from Moses ) is like a man that Rides a Horse without a Bridle , and p. 214. 215. on this Hypothesis that the Points are added I know not ( saith J. O. ) how Bellarmines Inference can be avoided , then which I know nothing in all his opposition to the Truth , more Pernitiously spoken , that partly by their Addition , and partly by the Negligence and Ignorance of the Transcribers , the Hebrew Scriptures , which are not Uuniversally Corrupted by the Malitious Work of the Jewes , are not yet so Wholly Pure , and Entire , but that Errours are Crept into them ; Yea they that are otherwise minded then those are , who Maintain the Antiquity of the Vowels , and Accents , and with Radulph Cevallerius ( whose Opinion he sayes is his own ) that the Hebrew Language was written with them from the Beginning , do not only make doubtfull the Authority of the Scriptures , but even pluck it up by the Roots , for without the Vowells , and Notes of Distinction it hath nothing firm and certain , p. 213. Yea so dangerous in the Consequence● of contending for Various Readings ( though not false nor pernitious ) that there 's nothing remaīning upon that account firm and unshaken , p. 219. Without the owning of these Points to be of Divine Original , we shall be left unto great uncertainty in all Translations and Expositions of the Scripture , p. 292. Yea the distemper that there are cor●uptions befallen , the Text , & Varieties from the first Copies is dreadfull , and such as may well prove mortall to the Sacred Truth of the Scripture . These Cuen multis aliis , &c. are the Extremities J. O. Asserts his Position in , insomuch that , if is hold not in this light , he confesses himself , and all such as side 〈◊〉 him to be Co●founded , and at a losse as to all their Faith , and unquestionable knowledge of any Saving Truth to this day . For asmuch then as I saw the S●●rs so Blind as not onely not to distinguish o●èr ( which yet sometimes J. O. does , but that 's to the further discovery of his own Confusion , and Self-contradiction , when at other times he does not ) between the Word or Truth it self ( which was in mens hearts before the Text , which Truth is by the Quakers not denyed to be properly Gods Word , The Foundation , & what ever else J. O. falsly affirms the Text to be , and the Text it self which in time came from it , and does but te●l of the Word and Truth to be nigh in the heart ; but also Extolling those Externalls with such Extream Rigidity as aforesaid Sith also the fight is about no lesse then the very Fundamentalls of the very Clergy , and University mens Faith it self , which is the most Immediate Foundation of the Faith of most other man , who Pin their Faith on their Sleeves and believe Implicitly at a venture as their Ghostly Fathers and Holy Mothers believe and so miscarry and drop into the ditch with them , if those their Blind Guides happen to be out ; I was much Prest in Spirit , in words at length and not in Figures , As to she●● both the Faultiness of the One , a●d the Falseness of the Other , that I might ●●mind them of the onely True Foundation of All Truth , which in the 3d. Exerei●●tion is proved to be , not the Text or Letter ( which yet is owned as useful in its place ) but that Inward Light , Word , and Spirit , I. O. jeers at , and does all the despight to , that almost is possible to be done to it , by any that do n●t ( as be sayes Falsly the Quakers do , Ex. I. S. I. ) delight in doing the Devils Work of Defiance to the Word of God ; So not to leave him wholly Unanswered , nor yet Answered only by the halves ( though in Answering him , I should make my self more like him therein then I am ) in his Flood of Folly , and Absur'd Assertion of the necessity of every Tittle of the Greek and Hebrew Text , to the being and abiding among men of all Sacred , Saving Truth : This is the Respect in which ( though else my Life and Delight , lyes not at all in Penning and Printing , ought about such Impertinencies as these ) I had not only a Liberty lent me , but also a certain Load laid on me from the Lord , which Led me into so large an Examination of J. O's . Lost Labour about the Letter , and to become a Fool among Fools at this time , so far , as to Busy my self with them in their Bawbles , if by any means I might gain some of them to a Sight of their Vanity , Madness , and Folly , and to a Sober , Solid Seeking after the more Sure and Serious Things of the True Wisdom it self , viz. The Fear of the Lord ; Which is to depart from all that his Light in their Own Hearts makes manife●t to be evil , and to dwell not so much in the Seeing , Knowing , and Talking of Trivial , Temporall Tittles , as in Walking in the Eternal Truth ; Which is the beginning of that Wisdo● , which is Folly to the Fools , that yet walk in Darkness , but doth in Truth Excel their University Wisdom , or Science ( falsly so called ) as far as Light , Excelleth Darkness . And as to the Bigness of the Book , which calls for so much the more Cost from him that Buyes it , and so much the more Pains from him that 's willing to Busie himself in it ; If that trouble any one , it shall not trouble me , who have now gone through the Toyl of that Attendance to it , which ( were it not freely for Truths sake alone ) I should in no wise take again upon me , though to gain much more then the whole Impression of it amounts hitherto to the Charge of such as have carried it throw the Presse : The Truth is , I once intended no more , then to have set out some single Sheets to J. O's Anti-Quakerism onely , but it so falling out , that before I was well warm in that Work , after two or three Publike Disputes at Sandwich , held by Three of us call'd Quakers ( viz. R. H. G. W. My self ) with Tho. Danson , and sundry of his Associates , there crept out two Quarrels of T.D. against Quakerism ( as he calls it ) much what to the same Truthlesse Tune , as J. O's was ; and by and by another peice Patcht up t● the same purpose , from Those Two Brethren , J. T. and R. Baxter , that were once beating each other for some Years together about Infant Baptism , but are now both as One Man Biting the Quakers as ' t●ere ) with their Teeth , which are as Spears , and their Tongue , which is as a sharp Sword , and Baiting at that Truth that 's Testified by them , and finding that these Four ( however oft contradicting each other ) were All carried about in the same Cloudy Circuit , and Whirl-wind of Doctrine , and did all Center in the same Sinck , of Absurdities in their own Sayings , and of Abominable Abuses of the Quakers , and among them all so fuly , in one Synod , Sounding out the whole Sense , and Leven of the whole Lump , That ( Nil● fere dicendum est , quod non dictum prius ) there can s●arcely any Thing henceforth be said against Vs and Truth , which is not said before by them : Instead of setting my self to enter the Lists with J. O. in a Single Conflict , I saw it more serviceable to single out these Four , as Four of their Choi●est Champions from among their Fel●owes , and under the Form of a Reply , directed , by Name , more Particularly to These Four , to give This ou● as a General Account of our Own Principles , and Con●u●ative Answer to the Contrary Principles of a● Mens : And this occasioned what was ( in my Intent ) set ou● at First , and smaller Systeme , to swell out at last into so large a Size . Besides , As 't is the very Life of Collegians , and Clergy-men , to busie themselves most in their Musing Places , where they may have most Book-room , being apt to think al● Lesser Pa●●ers Pedling , and unfit for Them to find ought in , that may be Answerable to the Vast Voluminousness of their Invention●● So J.O. Iudges the Quakers to be ( as it were ) but in Jest , and to Trifle with Him , when they take him in Hand , and Talk of his Long Tales , in two or three Words ●nely , and would not have his Matters medled with , unlesse more fully : Witnesse Epist. p. 28. 29. Where ( quoth he ) One of ●ate ; not understanding Me , nor the Thing he Writes about , his mind for Opposition was to be satisfied : I wish I could Prevail with those , whose Interest compells them to choose rather to be Ignorant , than to be Ta●gin by me , to let my Books a one . Another in Answer to a Book of an● 140 Sheets of Paper , Returns a Reply , ( quoth he ) to ●o much of it as was written in a quarter of an Hour . This is the manner of not a Few in their Writings ; I am therefore minded ( quoth ●he ) to Abstain from such Engagements . Upon such Considerations was I enticed on the Enter , ● and Trace further and farther After Him ; so that This may satisfie such as would haue had it shorter : But ( to be short with such ) If the Authors Pains and Pay , in Fenning and Printing , be not worth the Readers Patience , in Perusing and Purchasing , who will may let it wholly alone for me ▪ He that lik●s not the length of it hath enough of the same to make it shorter to himself however , and may look upon as little of it as he lists . Thirdly , Now , O ye Priests , and Universally Erring University Leaders of All other People in Things of the Soul , and its Salvation , I shall say the lesse to you here , by how much the whole following Fabrick Relates to you more Particularly then to any ; Though it har● no● only a General Respect to you All , in Regard of your Brotherly Relation to those more Specially spoken to , but a General Respect in some sort also unto All men : Whether I am in more Opposition to your Principles , or Pitty to your Persons , I ●an scarcely say , since I seek the Destruction of Nothing but what Destroyes you , whose Souls I am sure I Love , as much as I Loath those Light-lesse Laborinths of your Learning ( falsly so called ) in which you Loose you selves and Perish : Marvel not that My Self , and other man , of more mean as count then your selves , Meddle so much with the Ma●ty Matters of your Ministry , who have so long Excluded all Mechanicks , and Plain Country Creatures , from the Close Conclave of your Clerical and Collegian Counsells ; But know assuredly that the Day of God is Dawned upon the Earth , Wherein , from his Own Light , which ye Labour against in the Fir● of your Furious Minds , Wearying your selves for very Vanity to Blow it Out , It shall be Fill'd with the Knowledge of his Own Image and Glory , as the Waters Cover the Sea , Wherein , as ye have Fought his Fear after your Own Precepts & Traditions , whereby ye have Turned his ●●uth upside down , so he is ( as he Threatned in that kind , Isa. 29. ) bringing the Wisdom of you Wise Men , and the Understanding of you Prudent Ones to nought , so that your Turning of Things upside down shall be Esteemed , as the Potters Clay . Wherein , as ye have Divided Jacob from his God , and Scattered Gods Israel from their Dwelling , which is the Light itself in the hearts of men , in which God is , and Dwells with Those , who there Dwell with him ; which Light Christ and his Ministers seek to Draw All to , and by it unto God , and which it 's the Devils Work from the beginning to Seperate men from , in your Anger , which is Fierce , and in your Wrath , which is Cruel , like that of Levi , after whom you are called ; So he will ●i●i●e you in Jacob , and scatter you in Israel : Wherein , as ye are become Bruitish Pastor's , and have not Sought the Lord , so ye shall not Prosper , but All your Flocks shall be Scattered from you ; Wherein the Lord of Hosts is coming Down to Fight for Mount Sion , to fetch his Flock fro● between your 〈◊〉 , and like as a Lyon Pe●●ring on his Prey , when a Multitude of Shepheards is called forth against him , he will not be affraid of your Voice , nor Abase himself in the ●ost of his Holy Ones , wherein he appears against you , for the Noyses ye make against his Holy Truth ; But as ye have Provoked him to Wrath , by your own Inventions and False Worships ; so he will Provoke you to Iealousy by a Foolish Nation , and Weary you by such as are no People in your eyes , and , by 〈◊〉 , Mean , Weak , Foolish Nothings , Confound your Mighty Things that Are ; So that it shall be 〈◊〉 of the Learned Linguists and Greeks that see● after Wisdom , where● the Scribe , where 's the Disputer of this World● 〈◊〉 not God made Foolish the Wisdom of this World , who by ●s Wisdom knew not God , & this by that Foolishnesse of Preaching , whereby he Saves th●● that believe● How are the hidden things of Esau searched 〈…〉 no more in Tema● , & 〈…〉 is 〈◊〉 up Thy son● O Sion , against Thy Sons O Gr●●●d , and ●aking them against thee ( O Greece ) as the Sword of a Mighty Man in his Hand , and 〈◊〉 the Foundations of thy Fa●ed Faith , and Shaking all thy Supertitious 〈◊〉 i● the Ground . And as to the E●postulations , that are hold hereafter with you ( O Scholasticks ) Bo●be i● i●● in pave about the Body , yet it s Principally about the pre●ended Bottom of all your Babyloni●● Buildings , in which if your Basis were not so Brittle as it is , and must be ( being , by your own Confession , but the outward Te●● of that ●●ward Truth , which you Te●● me● , while you talk of it , 〈◊〉 To●●ly out of ) must needs be by so much an Unstable Standard , by how much by your selves , by the Pens of your University Doctors , in their Choicest Divinity Disputes , undertakings and fencing for the Fum●ess of it , it 's yielded to be as Alterable in the very Greek , and Hebrew Copies of it , as the Letters , Vowells , Accents , and lotaes of it , are Lyable to be Chang'd in Sound or Shape , at the wills of Criticks : Witnesse the Acknowledgements of J.O. that Lately Choice Oxo●ian Champion , and Latine Labourer Pro Scripturis against the Quakers , whose Scribling so much on behalf of the Scriptures , and the Integrity of the outward Text , and the Word of God , against us , who are Truer Friends to Both then himself , which was the first Occasion of this Rescription , and is very largly Replyed to , in the 2d . and 3d. of these 4. Ensuing Exercitations . Concerning whose Work tos● many of you Rabbies , whom he Reasons for , and Represents , I shall here Subject onely these Three things , which ( Consideratis Considerandis ) will shew , that by your own Concessions to Vs , about the Outward Transcripts , or Texts of the Scripture , if they ( ●● they are P●ofess'd to be ) be●t ●e Onely Rule and Roo● of All that ye call your Religion ) ye grant your Rule to be not Infallibly Right , and your Root , which is but a Mouldring , and Mouldred Writing to be but Rottenesse , and so Consesequently , that at last your Blossom must go up as the Dust. 1. Let it be ●eeded how J. O. ( as is aforesaid , and hereafter 〈◊〉 at large ) Pleads the Absolute Necessity of the Integrity of the present Text to be in the Hebrew and Greek Transcriptions ( though Translations , which are the Peoples Scriptural Rule , himself proves to be most exceedingly Corrupted ) Entire to every Tittle , as at 〈◊〉 giving out , without any losse , so Strictly , that if it be not so , but it appear to have been Altered by Ablation , or Addition , of the Points by the Tiberians , 〈◊〉 Cessarum ●eft , he utterly gives up for Gone All Gospel-Godliness , Cryes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? Where shall we Stand. And sees no way to be Delivered from utter Uncertainty in and about all Sacred Truth . 2. Let it be Considered , that Ye , who Plead such a Necess●y of such Integrity of your Foundation of Faith , had need be sure of your hand , yea , Infallibly certain in your selves , and in your Proof of it to others , or else ye make your own Graves with your own Hands , and pluck up your own Religion by the very Roots : Ye stand Eminently concern'd , upon the Concession of your Faiths Foundation not to be firm , in case one Tittle of the Text , ye frame all upon , be found wanting , or Points added since its giving out , to make it not probably onely ( as incertum aut ignotum , per incertius aut ignotius ) but Unquestionably clear , that the Text hath every Tittle , and that no Points are superadded since its first Penning , or else to begin again with the Qakers , at your A.B.C. in the things of God , and lay a better Bottom for your Building , and surer Ground for your Faith , then ere ye have done ; for ( as J. O. sayes in another case ) it s but meet that men should be call'd to Account upon their own Principles ; and such as suppose Salvation to sinke , if every Syllable be not seen , and Repose so Eternal a Trust upon a Temporal , External Text , as to assert All Saving Truth to Fail for Ever , if its Transcripts be not as Entire Now , as they were some Thousands of Years ago , and ●in the Everlasting Gospel of God on so Ticklish a Point , as Mens Mistaking , or Not Mistaking , in Writing out the Bare Letter of it , had need to be Not so Suppositive , ( as J. O. is ) but Positive in Their Proof , and Uncontrolably Demonstrative of Their Principall Proposition , and Not Impositive of Their Own Thoughts , Imaginations , Apprehensions , Uncertain Conjectures , and Pretended Probabilities onely , Sith the Stresse of a Case of such Dangerous Consequence Stands upon it , that All Souls ( as J. O. sayes at least ) so Depend on it , as to have No Means of Their Salvation , if Their Proposition prove False , and They happen to be Out , or Miscarry in it : Or else in Case Ye can't so Clear it , then Confesse ( as J. O. seemes to do sometimes , but that He is loath to stand Long to the Honour of such a Confession ) that Ye well Know Not Where Ye are , nor What to Say about the Various Lections Ye finde to be Crept into Your Text ; nor What may be the Cause of its Being so ; and that Ye have Nothing to Blame , but Your Own Ignorance of the Scriptures , and other Cases ; And of the True Foundation , which is the WORD it self , and Not the Scripture , or Writing of it ; And that Ye have Never with Your Shallow Comprehensions and Understandings , Ye have Hitherto lean't to , reached yet the Vtmo●t Depth of Truth , and so think it Meet , since Ye can make No Demonstration of Your Position , to lay it Down Altogether , and , of Learned Men become meer Wormes , not Captivating Others to Your Own Thoughts , but Captivating Your Own Thoughts to the Truth , and to the Authority of God in his Word nigh in the Heart , and Not leaning Alone to the Lesbian Rule of a Naked Letter Without You ( See J. O. p. 303. 347. ) For as Error Minimus in Principio fit Major in Medio , Maximus in Fine ; So , there being but some Errours in Your Bottom ( O Ye Builders ! ) Your Building must needs stand Awry , and be most crooked at the Top. Yea , this is a most Vndeniable Truth , That the Faith about that , which is Beleeved to Be the Foundation of All Saving , and Divine Faith in other Things , must be Built upon an Undoubtedly Divine Basis , and stand in a Ground that Can't be Shaken , and on an Infallibly Sure , and Unquestionable Foundation , and Not on such A Flexible Thing as Mans Conjectures , Thoughts , Apprehensions , Opinions . This Way , or That , Nor on Meer Humane Fallible Perswasions , Reports , Writings , Testimonies , Traditions of Authors , either on One side or Other : Or else ( as J. O. sayes ) So say I , We shall Quickly see ( and because of This , See it We do Already ) what Wofull Estate and Condition the Truth , that the Scripture Talks of , will be brought Vnto , And how Brittle the Belief is : If the Foundation , that any Fabrick Stands on , should be Stone , and the Ground , that Foundation stands in , should be but Sand , That Building will not Abide ; when the Stormes and Waves come : If the Foundation of Your Faith in other Things be the Integrity of the Text to a Tittle , as at first Given Out ( for so it is with J. O. or else He gives All up for Gone ) and Your Faith about that Entireness to a Tittle of the Text be Founded no where but in Fancy , Conceits , Thoughts , or in the Opinions of Your Selves , and other Men Ye Side with , Opposing as Learned as Your selves that Side Against You ; I here Affirm in Sober Sadness , and in the Fear of God , not Derisorily , that All Your Faith is of No more Force , then a Fiddle-●tick is of to Fight withall , as to the Effecting of that full Freedom from Sin and Salvation , which Comes by Christ , which is the End of his Coming , to All those that Unfainedly Believe in his Name . 3dly . Let it be We●l and Wisely Weighed , how Wonderfully farre Short of Scientificall Syllogismes , and Clear Demonstrations , or of so much as True Topical Evidences either , Your Arguments are , in Proof of That Entirenesse and Integrity of Your Text in Every Tittle , if there be No Better to be Vrged by You ( as in Truth there are Not ) then what are Vrged by J. O. in that Case , on Behalf of the University and Clergy . For after J. O. had stood out as long as He well could with Sticks and Straws against the Novelty of the Points , and the Variety of Lections in the Texts of your Transcripts , He plainly Yields and Confesses both , as is shew'd hereafter . 1st . Vrging His false Conceits about Gods Promise , and Providence , and Loving , and carefull Aspect over the Transcribers and such like Fancies of His own , yea all along His own and others Thoughts against them , and concluding thence thus , Shall We think this and that ? Is it not very Improbable ? Shall We imagine so or so ? And then at last clearly confessing the same He before contended against . Which Grants , though , when they are gone from him , He would gather in again , fearing He hath lost a●● , if He do not a little qualify them ; Yet in what a poor way He puts on to Reduce and Recover what He had given by His Yieldings and Acknowledgments , and how they are of as little force , and to as little purpose , as Pharoahs endeavour was to bring Israel back , when he had once let them go from him , A very Fool may feel , by the following Examination of what He uttereth toward the Regaining of His Ground again . His Maxime or Main Proposition , He fights for all along , from first to last , being that the Now Copies of the Originall Text are Entire to a Tittle , without any losse , by the Mistakes of the Transcribers , or change , by Addition of the Points . His Main Medium of proof is the Promise , Providence and Care of God concerning the entire Preservation of your Originall Texts to a Tittle : the Foolishness , Falseness , Weakness and Absurdity of which , together with many other Mediums used by Him , not one of which is Ta●tamount to so much as a Topicall Argument , I have sufficiently hereunder discovered . One of his Main Subordinate Mediums is ( not the Infallible Guidance , Direction or Assistance of God , for that 's denyed by Him , to all the Transcribers , the first , as well as the last , p. 197. ) But only the Religious Care , Diligence and Consideration of their Work in Hand , and with whom they had to do in it , and Gods Loving Aspect over them in it , and this is all He does , or dares Ascribe to the best of them , from whence He inferres no more ( which yet is not half enough to His purpose ) then a Probability that they might not be Mistaken at all in a Tittle , or at least not so much , as the Transcribers of Heathen Authors : Concluding in such like Terms as Shall we think ? Can we Imagine ? Surely it s very Improbable : It seems to border on Atheism to Imagine they were mistaken so , as that the same fate attended them , and the Text in their Transcribing it , as hath done other Books , and much more such like Trifling Stuff . After this His Arguing to which Probability that they were not so mistaken , lea●t He should seem to have over-shot Himself in going but so far , He begins to fall again by Degrees , and Confesse , 1 st . That , though it were very Improbable , yet 't was not Impossible for them in any thing to mistake ; and then 2 dly . a little farther yet , He falls a Confessing and Granting , à Potentiâ ad Actum , that they did mistake , and that failings have fell out and been found among them , and that from thence Various Lections are risen , sundry of which He also instances in : Notwithstanding all which Concessions and Grants , whereby He layes himself and his Arch-Assertion Level with the Ground , He yet seeks to Scramble it up again , and to save Himself from sinking quite down , by catching hold on many weak Twigs , and to Lick Himself whole with a Legion of little Worths , which ( as is shew'd hereafter ) do not heal him of the Wounds , which Himself gives to His Own Arch-Assertion . Thus , while Wisdom builds Her own House , The Foolish Woman pulls Hers down with her Own Hands : Moreover how Ye Ministers Unminister your selves Every Way , who can't but see ? Ye deny the onely True Foundation the Letter layes , which is the Light , and lay the Letter in its stead , yet what a slender kind of honour , ye give to the Letter too ( for all your so Loud Laudings of it in Words ) is shew'd Exer. 2. p. 51 , 52 , 53. Ye deny any Infallible Guidance of your selves , as well as others at this Day , by the Infallible Spirit , which Holy Men of God ever spake by ( as they now do ) in dayes of old ; Ye deny the only Way of Justification by Christ , and his Righteousness Revealed in your selves ; Ye deny the Light that leads to Life , as very Darkness it self ; Ye deny Perfection here , the very End of all Ministry ; Ye Preach for Hire , and Divine for Money , and have beguil'd People into a Love to have it so , what will become of you , and what will ye do when the End of all this comes upon you ? Ye are such Turners to and fro with the Times , Turning and Tempering your Tenets thereunto , that there 's no Generation of men ( unless That of Those , who , with their Traditions , and Empty Formalities , make void the End and Equity of the Law , as ye , with Yours , make void the very Power and Perfection of the Gospell ) can so Generally , or so Truly say , as ye may of your selves , Tempora Mutantur , & nos Mutamur in illis : Witness All Vicissitudes of the Times , from Henry the 8 th . to this Day , wherein ( Exceptis Excipiendis , some Few only , in each Turn , to be Excepted , who rather then Turn would Burn , & bear the spoil of both Persons and Possessions ) the Two Nurseries of this Nation , and their Respective Nationall Nephewes and Children ( viz. That Noun-Adjective Priesthood , which could never stand yet alone by the Sword of the Spirit , without the Sword of Secular Powers , to Secure and Support them in their Spirituall Maintenances and Ministrations ) have for the most part , as to their Formes of Religion , like Reeds shaken with the Wind , and Yielding with the Tide , Lean'd all along ( for Livings sake ) which Way so ●re the Powers in Present being ( per force ) would Form or Frame them to and fro , viz. from Popery to Prelacy , from that to Popery back again , from thence to Prelacy again , from thence onward to the Scotch Presbitery , from thence on to a more moderate , mixt kind of Presbiterian-Independency , and ( after so many Oaths , or Vowes , and Covenants to Endeavour the Extirpation , Root and Branch , of that , which may ( as well as any of the other for ought I know ) serve the Turns of such Turncoat-Teachers , as make an External-Temporall Trade of Talking on , more then of Walking in the Eternall , Spiritual Truth ) how many are now minded ( if the Word should be , As you were ) to face about again to the O●ning of that late Episcopall Hierarchy , I cannot determine ; yet I can Divine , by the doings of some Divines , that not a few of those who were not long since so devoted against it , that ( had not the Tide Turn'd upon them , contrary to the Common Course of Presbiterian Expectation ) one may safely say they would never have said so much for it , as they now begin to do , will ere long ( if not comply with it Simpliciter ) yet , by some Simple Secundum Quid or other , distinguish themselves into an Union and Compliance with it , and dispute themselves into some Share and Division with its Children in their Spirituall Dignities , and Preferments , Alias , Confound themselves into some Common Communion with them therein , rather then ( for non Conformity to their Form and Government ) be wholly Excommunicated ( Ipso facto ) from All Communication with them in those their Carnall Clericalities : If their Episcopall Brethren ( as they have of late began to call them ) be but as free to entertain them thereinto , in this Day of their Dominion , as some of the Presbyterian Brethren ( who Dein'd the other no leave , nor liberty to live in their dead Form under them , in the day of their ( as undue ) Domination , seem forward to intrude themselves into a dwelling with them in their Tents , it seems to me at least that they may yet Cott'n well enough together with them for their own Ends : Witness not only some Words of R.Bs. Book about the Visibility of the Church very newly extant , which intimate his owning , in some sort , a Superintendency of Bps over Presbiters , but also in his Preface to that very Book of ● . T. I have here to do with , which are these , viz. I have already told the Episcopall-Brethren that Bishop V●her and I did fully agree in half an hour , and therefore it 's not long of us , that Our Wound is yet unhealed ; ( And though I never treated with Mr. Tombs about such a matter ) I am confident he and I should agree in one dayes Treaty upon Terms of Communion , &c. Thus we see how ready these men are to Creep into a Correspondency with the Metrapolitans themselves of that lately Exploded Hierarchy : And whether an Exaltation to that Honour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Lords over the Clergy , 1 Pet. 5. And such a Benefice as a Bishoprick may not be so Swallowed without straining , as to stop the once open Mouths of SMECTYMNUUS his own Sides-men , is shrewdly suspected by many , whose Eyes are strictly set to see what some will do , who seem to sit next dore to it : What Edm. Calamy , and such , as with him seemed to be Pillars ( like Jachin and Boaz ) before the now Tottering Temple of the late Presbitery , will do in such a Time , if ever Temptation by such a Tender shall happen to attend them , will be not a little Observed by their old Brethren , who were once not a little Observant towards them : A little Time to such as Doubt them may now Discover it . Ye Clash against each other , as Eagerly as ye are able in your Blind Zeal , about many meer Accessaries , yet Close as Cordially as Men of one Heart , and one Soul ( under pretence of Love to it ) in Enmity against Christs true Light in all Men , which is that Main , and one Thing Necessary ; witness both Tomb's and Baxer's Epistles to that very Book of theirs against the Q●a . herein reckon'd with , wherein all their former fightings * for and against Infant Baptism seem to be swallowed up in the Gulf of their Ghostly Agreement against us , and Vnanimous Gainsayings of that saving Grace of God ( i.e. His Light ) which Tit. 2. 11.12 . Appeares inwardly to All Men , from appearing ( if it might be ) in its outward Ministry unto Any at all . The Lord open your Eyes , that some of you at least may yet see , in this Day , wherein ye are much Benighted , what makes for your Peace , before it be hid Eternally from your Eyes , that Hell , which is Enlarging her self to receive all your Pomp and present Glory , may not open Her Mouth and Gape so wide upon you ere ye are aware , that ye sink All down , as uncircumcised ones into the sides of that infernall Lake , and so the Pit shut her Mouth upon you All for ever . 4ly . And Finally , O Ye the Present Rulers in this English Nation , and the rest hereto pertaining , whether Supream , or but Subordinate , Though I neither do , nor may put what herein is put forth under Yours , or any meer Mens Patronage whatever , but under Christs alone , by whose Power only , in a Weak Earthen Vessel , this Work was thus far Performed , to whom only , as it came through Me from Him , so I Dedicate it back in Service to his Own Truth , together with all the Honour , Praise , and Glory thereof , which is due alone to his Own Name , yet I both may and do hereby Present it unto You also , as of no small Concernment to Your selves ; And more Peculiarly unto Thee ( O King ) Sith As Thy Personal Interest , as to Outwards , is now under God , and Christ the Highest ; So Thy Personal Influence into all Temporall , and Civill Affairs , wherein Thou art Concerned to see to the Common Wealth of all People , in This Thy Native Nation , that own Thy Supremacy therein , and in All , but Truly Spirituals , and meer Conscience Cases , Relating Immediately to the Soul between which and God , in matters of Faith , Worship , and Religion , Christ himself by his Light , and no Man , much less the Pope , is the only Judg ) is seen at present to be the Greatest upon Peoples Affections ; That Thou with Them , maist have the more Perfect Understanding of the Principles of those People , against whom ye are oft much Mis-Informed . T is a Ticklish Time with Thee ( O King ) and Thy Government , in the Nick of which , Thou maist saon do That , which may be the Making , or the Marring of both thy Self , and It for Ever : It lyes on me from the Lord , herein to clear my Conscience towards Thee , and those under Thee , in Bowells of Compassion to Your Pretious , and Immortall Souls , In His Name , whom I serve in Humility of Mind , to Warn you to take Good Heed what ye do , le●t by Tampering beyond the Line the Lord hath ●ent you in the Matters of Religion , and so by Leaning to some one Form thereof , that may seem the Truest to some men , whose minds , meerly for their own Ends , are Moulded into the Image of it , ye Lead all the Rest away Captive after that , and so not only Over-load the Seed of God in all his Saints , but Over-charge your selves also so far , as to Lay Wast , not only that Religion , which , among all the Rest ye Ruinate , is the Truest , but your Own also , which ye would Set up to Stand alone in the Ruines of the Rest ; Which said True Religion God hath Decreed so to Stand , that all those that are peaceable toward it , and let it alone shall stand the more Prosperously by it , and all that rise up against it , in their Vain hopes to Ruine it , shall assuredly fall before it for its sake : Caution is not Condemnation : What ever cause there is for it at this time , yet my Call is not in this Place to Complain of what Abuses Honest Men passe under , both in City and Country , as Contrary to what hath been Declared by the KING , as they are without his Personal Cognizance thereof : My Hearts Desire and Prayer to God yet for this , though Divided , English Israel is that its People may not Perish , but yet be Saved ; for I Bear them Record , they have a Zeal of God , but not according to knowledg , if it were , they would all come down to that One Light of God in every of their Own Hearts , in which God is , in which alone ( as the Letter it came from Speaks , 1 John 1.5 , 6 , 7. ) All True Union and Firm Fellowship , both between God and Men , and betwen men one with another stands ; Yet this I say , as one that hath Obtain'd the Mercy from God in his Light to see it ( to my present Grief for them , if they see not timely to it ) that there can be no Long Lasting Peace in these Latter Dayes , to this , or any Nation in the World of Christendom , nor Beating back again of those Swords into Plowshares , and Spears into Pruning Hooks , which from Plowshares , and Pruning Hooks have been of late beaten into Swords and Spears , Till Secular Princes become so Prudent , as by Blind Guides in Spiritualls , to be no more beguiled into a Building up of some Babel or other , with the Blood of all other Christians , that cannot Blesse it , and so Pollitick for themselves at least ( if not so Pittiful to others , and Patiently Pious toward the Lord ) as , according to Gods Will therein , to let Tares and Wheat stand still together ( though not in the one Floor i. e. the Church ) yet at least in one Field i. e. the World , or Civil States thereof , untill the Harvest ; and to let Religion alone ( which is that alone that Crushes them to Pieces , while they Meddle much to Make it , and Cumber themselves more with it then God Requires ) to Stand or Fall ( as True or False ) by its own Power and Evidence , which is that of the Spirit , without the Interposition of any External Arm of Flesh s●retcht out in Persecution of any to Establish it ( For not by Might nor Power , but by My Spirit saith the Lord ) and leave All People ( who if his Word Alone may not Winn them , have leave so to do from God Himself , so they 'l take from Him what comes on 't at last ) to Walk Every One in the Name of his God , and Leave Gods Own People ( who have no leave from Him to do otherwise ) to walk in the Name of the Lord their God , from henceforth and for ever . If ye go about to make Religion a mee● Engine , whereby in Pollicy to Establish your selves , and make it not rather your own Main Design to Establish It ( and that ye can never do Positively , by making Lawes for the bringing of All to such , or such a Particular Form of it , but Permissively only , by suffering all People to be of what Faith toward God they find Evidence for in the Light of God within themselves , while they Live in Peace and Faithfulnesse in their Civil Dealings and Demeanour one by another , which is the Pleasure of the Lord , concerning You in that Particular , your Work of Settlement shall never Prosper long , as theirs hath not done , who have lately gone before You , for the Mouth of the Lord hath spoken it . O my Bowells , my Bowells ! How have I been Pained at my Heart to see each of those Three Several Churches of Christians , that Sit still under the Shadow of their Selfish Shepheards , under the Cloudy Conceits of their Several Clergies ( so called ) viz. Papal , Prelatick , Presbyterial , each of which will be National , or Not at All , Wearying themselves , and their Poor Christ'n Creatures , with no other then the Greatnesse of their own Way , and each , as it were , no lesse then Mo●e Ruentem Sua , Suis ut Ipsa Roma Viribus Ruit : That they All , and All others also , walking in Love and Peace , might stand so long as they are able by Arguments , without Armes to uphold them , or any Armour to Shield them , but only the Armour of Light , by the Evidence of their Own Words , without the Edge of either the Civil Shepheards , or the Souldiers Swords Swaying to any side , any more then to see that the Civil Peace be Preserved by them all , is my Desire ; It would then in Coolnesse soon be seen clearly , whose God it is that is the Lord , and by each Single Searcher , that the Lord alone is God , and such as are for him , would also follow him , and such as ( seeing no other God then Baal ) are for him , would also follow him , and each man be well Contented to Live and Dye in the Service of , and Receive his Reward from his Own God : And they whose Dagon cannot Stand , but Fall before the Ark of the Living God , would be seen to be but of that Wretched Race ; And if yet any are so Devoted to their Own False God ( though they see He cannot stand in the Presence of the True God ) that they 'l Set Him up Again , rather then they 'l Own the True One ; let the Philistines Erect their Dagons , after they are down , as oft as they will , even till they fall again and Break to Pieces , they shall have Liberty , withall my heart , to Set them up for themselves to Worship , but shall never Set them Up again any more for me ; who know that what ever is pure Religion in the Sight of that Generation , who are Pure in their Own Eyes , and yet are neither Washed from their Filthinesse , nor have Faith they shall be , while they Live in this World , whether they Own or Own not a Purgatory in that to Come , Yet that pure Religion , that is Undefiled before God , is to Visit the Fatherless , and Widow in their Aflictions , and to keep a Mans Self Unspotted of the World : Those Men who abide Stedfast , Unmovable , abounding in such works of God , as the Light Leads to , Find their Labour not in Vain in the Lord ; But whoever seem to be Religious , and are Unbridled , and not Ruled , and Ordered by Gods Own Spirit , in their Spirits , Speeches , and Conversations ( and much of that sort of Religion there is among Christians , as was once among Jewes , and is in all men , whom God made Upright , but that they seek out many Inventions , which the Scripture calls Vain Oblation , Isa. 1.13 . Vain Conversation , 1 Pet. 1.18 . Vain Customes , Jer. 10.3 . Vain Worship , Matth. 15. Vain Faith , 1 Cor. 15. Jam. 2. Vain Shew , Psal. 39.4 . Vain Thoughts , Jer. 4.14 . ) These mens Religion is all but Vain ; As it 's all but Novel , and Narrow to the Oldest , which is most True , and most Catholike , or Universal . As true as is that there are many Religions in the World , so 't is that each Religion Pleads it Self to be the Truest , and from no lesse then it 's own greater Antiquity and Universality then all the Rest ; and I as truly know both That Church and it's Religion , to be both the Eldest and the Largest , which is by blind Men judged to be the Least , Last , and Newest , as I willingly yeild the Eldest , and Largest , to be the Truest : And if that of the Quakers so called , which is counted to be the most Small and Upstart , be not the most Catholike and Antient that is in the World ( however now Disguised by the Serpents Subtilty , under the Newest of those Nicknames , which the World never wanted in any Age , wherewith to Render the Right Religion Odious ) I here professe my Readiness to Renounce it ; But if it be [ And there needs not much to do to prove it so to be , Sith to Tremble at Gods Word , and Walk in his Light , and in an Innocent , Honest , Humble , Harmless , Holy Life ( the very End of all Outward Observations ( in which Gods Kingdom nor Stands , nor comes , but in Power , and a more Hidden , and Inward Righteousness , Peace , and Joy ) Required once by God , and now by men practiced pretendedly to the self same End ) and to do as we would have others to do to us , which ( saith Christ ) is the Law , and the Prophets , the Sum and Substance of all their Doctrine , the Hight of which is that Love , that Loves Enemies , does Good against Evil , and Works no Ill to the Neighbour , and so Fulfills the Royal Law ( which is the whole of the Quakers work , as to God , and of their Message from him to the World ) is no other then the same that was Universal ( as to time ) from the beginning , even from Abel , Enoch , Noah , who walk't with God in this Life by the Light , which only leads to it , long before any at all of that Letter , which came from the Light , and leads to it , ever was to Walk by , and not so Particular ( as to place ) as any of those are , which Falsly call themselves Catholike , and yet are not only Thousands of Years Younger then this , but also Contained ( as even all Christendom it self is ) in some Narrow Corner of the World , into the Whole of which the Light hath gone out , and brought forth Fruit , to the begetting of that General or Catholike Assembly , and Church of the First Born , whose Names are Written in Heaven , to which , as the Hebrews then Heb. 10. so the Quakers now are come ] Then let all those Religions , who now Renounce it , as meerly New and Nothing , beware lest they Reject Gods Councel , which is his Light in their own Consciences , against themselves to their own Perdition . This is that True Religion , which where it is not , all Outward Observation of what God Himself Requires , is now , as under the Law it was , but Irreligion , and Iniquity in the Account of God : This is the Good Way , Jer. 6. The Antient Paths , which Israel , ever busied in many lesser matters of Tith , Mint , Annis & Cummin , neglecting the Weighty , & the Main , would never be perswaded by Her Prophets to walk therein ; Which way , and who so walk in it are the True Way , and Holy Seed , which , as the Substance of the Oak , or Flourishing Tree of Religion , when the Leaf of all Outward Form shall Fall off , and Perish , shall Stand and abide for ever . This Way is He , who is the Way , Truth , and Life , and This is the Church , and People of God , who Walk in him , of both whom ( though they seem to the Blind Seers , to come after all other wayes and people ) it may be said in Reference to them all , as John said of the same , This is he who cometh from Above , and is Above All , who cometh after me , yet is prefered before me , for he was before me , whose Seed or Church , which is One ( As He said before Abraham was , I Am ) may say of all outward Priesthoods and their Churches , before any of these were , I am : Be ye therefore ( O All ye Powers of the Earth ) Tender of Touching the Tender Lambs of Him , who is the Antient of dayes , by whom the Judgement is now Set , and the Books are Opening : I know while Satan that Old Serpent is Alive , his Antient wonted Work will not be Dead , of moving you by his Ministers , whom be Transforms , as the Ministers of Christ , and Righteousness , to make Havock of both that Despised Ministry , and that Little Flook of Christ , that hear his Voice ; But be ye Advised , if not by us , yet at least by Gamaliels good Councell , Acts 5.38 . in your Councells , who said to them then , as I to you , whom I wish not to Afflict any for the Quakers sakes , but to take heed of Afflicting them at the wills of others , whom they Torment and Trouble , with nothing , but ( as they think at least ) with too much Truth : Refrain from these Men and let them alone , for if this their Councell and their Work be of Men , it will come to nought , but if it be of God , ye cannot overthrow it , lest happily ye be found to fight against God ; And its hard for you to kick against the Pricks : No Powers nor people did ever Harden themselves against God and Prosper : Subtile Sanballats , Tale-bearing Tobiah's , and Haughty Hamans ( who never had that Honour , from the Honest Mordecaies or Seed of the Jewes , they Hungred after , being themselves that Seed of Evil doers , which are never to be Renowned ) were ever Insinuating to Kings and Rulers against the Saints in all Ages , as a certain odde People Dispersed about the Provinces and Kingdoms , whose Lawes are Diverse from all People , neither keep they the Kings Lawes , but intend to Rebel , Est. 3.8 , 9. Neb. 4.2 , 6.6 . So that it cannot be for the Kings profit to suffer them , and so Sugge●ting ( as those Ministers , who though they Swear to the Kings Supremacy in all Ecclesiastical , as well as Civil Cases , yet in Effect take themselves to be Supream Directivè , in point of appointing what 's the Faith , what is Heresy , who Hereticks , owning the Magistrates as Supream , only Correctivè in point of punishing Hereticks , when they have Censured & Sentenced them as such , do at this day ) * That if it please the King they may be Destroyed : Yet I say to Thee ( O King ) and to All thy Councells , and Subordinate Powers , as Ye Tender your Internal , External , and Eternal Welfare , proceed not upon Account of their Proposition of it to you , to Persecution of that Seed , which it 's so much for the Kings Profit to Suffer to Live quietly under Him , that ye cannot Prosper to any purpose , but must rather Perish in all your other Purposes for their sakes , while your hands are Stretched out against them , and till ye come to let them stand Peaceably by you ( at least ) while you have your own , if yet ye will not stand as one with them in their Right Religion : And if ye mean more lastingly to enjoy your Own Formes of it ( which are not Everlasting , as the other is ) be not found Fighters against the Power of Godlinesse where it appears , for that hastens the Fall of the Formes before it , which else would be longer Liv'd , then so they will be : But if you build anything at all that shall stand much longer then while ye are Building it , return to him , who not long since Smote you , or else his Hand will be Stretched out against you still , and begin upon the Right Basis , the Light , and Spirit , which leads only into that Life , and Divine Nature , the Letter talks on : What ever Forms of Government , Civil or Ecclesiastical , Grow not up from the Ground of that True Righteousnes , Peace and Joy in a Holy Spirit , in which , and not in words , shewes , Forms , nor Observations , Christs Kingdom Stands , which is now at hand , must give way to it , as that comes on , no Building of man being able to stand , where the Lord begins to shew his Building , Esdr. 2.10.54 . And though the Builders think they make as sure work as Those , Isa. 8.8 , 9 , 10 , &c. That say in the Pride and Stoutness of their Heart , the Bricks are fallen down , but we will build with Hewen Stone , the Sicamores are cut down , but we will change them into Cedars ; Yet they shall Build , but I will Throw down ( saith the Lord ) Yea every House that is not so Built , is not on the Real Rock , but the Slippery Sands , and when the Rain Descends , the Floods Arise , the Storms and Winds begin to Blow , and Beat upon the house , it will Fall , and Great will be the Fall thereof . According to the Liberty by you yet lent us ( who are in their desires sold not only for Bondmen , and Bondwomen , for then we should the better Bear it , but even as very Sheep for the Slaughter ) It 's no Treason to you , for us to Reason with them , and with You about them , by Reason of whom , so many Souls are made to Perish ; and 't is no lesse then to betray your own Souls to Slaughter , and Eternal Slavery , for you not to Try their Talk. First , Who tell it you for Truth , that there is now no Guidance of Christs Own Ministers by Christs Own Infallible Spirit : They that Teach , that their own Teaching is but Falible , may easily draw all their Implicit Followers together with themselves into the Ditch . Secondly , Talk for Liberty of Conscience , while they are under the Lash of others , and for Persecution , as soon as they can Climb to be Lords over all . Thirdly , That Affirm Christ's Righteousness , Wrought in his Saints Persons , by his Power and Spirit ( Serving to Sanctifie them too , & to fit them for Heaven ) to be of no other worth , and worth no better Name ( and worse they cannot give it ) then that of unclean Dung , Losse , and Filthy Rags , which Doctrine is Necessarily Deducible from T. D's . Writing against the Quakers , who yet sayes , David , even while Guilty of Adultery and Murder , was not in a Condemned , but in a Justified Estate , Fourthly , That where and while God Tenders Salvation Openly and Universally to All Men , He Secretly Intends it , but Particularly only , to a Few . Fifthly , That that Light the Quakers Testify to , which in Truth is no other then the True Light , which the Life is , which their own Rule of Scripture sayes , John 1.9 . Enlightens every man that cometh into the World , Enlightens not every one , but very few , And is an Horrible Figment of the Quakers , an Imaginary Christ , as to Salvation in all Divine Matters , Darkness , Blindness it self , and many more sayings of that sort , under which they Scorn it ( as J. O. does * ) and other Divines , viz. R. B. and J. T. little lesse . Sixthly , 1. That the Letter of the Scripture , is the only Sure Foundation , and Rule of all Faith. 2. That the said Letter is Variable and Varied , and yet . 3. That A thing that is Variable can be no Rule neither , which is one of the many Rounds the Rabbies Run in . Seventhly , That Preaching of Perfect Purging , and full Freedom from Sin in this world , is a Doctrine of Devills ( so T. D. ) and Punishable With Prisons , and other Paines ( so I. O. ) & that there 's no Purgatory , for purging away the Remnants of it ( as the Pope Falsly sayes there is ) in the world to come neither ; which Perfection of Holiness ( so far as to deny of all Unholiness ) and Salvation of Souls from Sinning , is the meer End of Christs coming , Matth. 1.21 . the end of all Ministry that 's of his giving , Eph. 4.11 , 12 , 13. the end of all the Apostles Writing , & willings of men to walk in the Light , 2 Cor. 7 , 1. 1 Iohn 1.6 , 7 , 8. 1 Iohn 2.1 . and of all true Faith or Beleiving , 1 Pet. 1.5 . And , as it 's no Treachery in us to you nor others , nor yet in you , and us , and all men to our selves , to Try what 's Truth , before we Trust , Take , and Talk for it , much more Obtrude it , as that Truth , which must Subpaena ( as so ) be believed by Ali : So it 's no lesse then time for us to Ask , and put it to the Question among you ( Sith both cannot be so , who are so Contradictory , and if they be Right , wee l own our selves to be wrong , when once they prove it ) whether those , who in Christs Name Minister the abovesaid Messes for Truth , or the Qua. who in their Ministry Minister the very contrary , and no less then the Infallible Truth it self , be Christs Ministers : So having in my time , Born my Testimony , as a Friend to the Truth , against such as Tread , and Trample it under Feet , and A●k'● an Answer from that of God in All Consciences ( to which I Appeal , to Judg between the Clergy , and the Quakers , who are in Truth ) I Sit down Satisfied in my Own Conscience in the Sight of God , holding Love to All Mens Persons , and Warr with nothing , but Mens Wicked Works , not knowing whether this may be the Last Time of Asking ; After which ( as to this way of Appearing in Print against the Pervertures of the Parish Priesthood ) I may , for ought I know , for Ever possibly hold my Peace . Sam. Fisher. A Lamentation over Lost-Souls : With a Word of Warning to All Kings , Princes , Parliaments , Powers , And People to Beware of Such Priests , a● Uphold the Devils Kingdome , by Pleading ( Contrary to the Scriptures of Truth ) A Continuance of Iniquity for Term of this Life , & A Necessity of Mens Transgressing of Gods Law while they Li●e in the World , Or have any Abode in the Body . IN th' Snare You Are ( Dear Souls ) I truly Know it , And , Wot I't Not , yet there is . That doth Shew it ; For First , that 's Worst , You are Beset with Sin ; Next Those are Foes without , ( for That 's With - in ) Who Preach , yea Teach , Yee cannot Live with - out it ; Who Hint , Live In 't , yet shall Yee Live , ne'r Doubt it ▪ Such Watchmen Catch men in Sins Snares , not Out , By Such , how Much to take Sin lies at Scout Y●u In its Gin , You 'l know when th' Light is Heeded : Know'● Now , and How Christ Iesus is not Needed , To Win from Sin , if in it Souls can Thrive , To Save from th' Grave , if there Souls are Alive . I Trow , You 'l Know , You Cannot Live in Sin , When All Dy Shall , who Live , and Dy there - in : Wherefore , before you Live You ought t' Eschew it ; Then Must ( I Trust ) even whilst you Live , or Rue it . Read This ( for 't is a Ridd●e else ) in th' Light ; Heart Read , for th' Head herein obtains no Sight : It s Wis-dom Is too Dim this Depth to Enter , Vn - lesse you Guesse by th' Spirit , which Dives to th' Center . Give Ore , no More your selves with Vain Hopes Cherish , For Lie , and Die in Sin who doth doth Perish . But Lay Away all Weights , Sins , which be - set you Abandon , And shake off such Priests , as Let you , And Shun , that Run you may , with Saints , that Race , Which Brings with Wings from Sin , to th' Holy Place . To th' Place , where Grace is Perfect , Holy Sion ; The Mount , where ( Count upon 't ) there comes no Lyon , Nor Man that Can work Evil , where the Pure In Heart leave Part Alone , and their Right 's Sure : For While You Stile those Saints , who plead for Evil , And Them Christ's Members , who still Serve the Devil , Nor Leave , but Cleave to Them , the Light ye Flee , And Sure , ye Pure ( as Christ is ) cannot Be. For Hire They Tire You out with Talk , ●ut Know Their Words are Swords , which will Souls Over - throw . Their Eyes toward Lyes are set , Truth They Be - spatter ; Time - Serving , Swerving still from God They Scatter . They Sooth , speak Smooth , Charm , Dawb , Sow Pillowes , Flatter , Cry Peace , where Peace is Not ; So ends this Matter . Sam Fisher. A List of some of the Typographicall Mistakes . THough ( in I. O's . blind judgement ) it seems to Border on Atheism to say the same Fate ( as to Mistakes ) hath attended the Hebrew and Greek Text of Scripture in it's Transcribing , as hath done other Books , yet it seems to me , upon that but Running Review I have yet taken thereof , that the same Fate , in that kind , hath attended this of mine ; which hath ever yet attended both the Scripture , and His , & I. T 's . and all other Books too ( of any Bulk ) in their passage through the Press . As for the Faults that have befallen this , as they are not very many ( considering the greatness of the Impression , and the smalness of the Print ) so they are too many to passe altogether Unmended , Unminded & Unmentioned also : Whereupon ( excepting such as ( being more gross ) are with a Pen already rectified to the Readers hand ) of such as are not mended , I shall mention some , wishing Him to mend the rest in his own mind : Yet some of these hereunder noted were espied , and amended before they were wrought off wholly at the Press . In the 1. Exercitation page 24. line 13. read Kings p. 28. l. 18. r. stout standing p. 70. in the Margent r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 80. l. 10. r. there , p. 90. l. 3. r. life p. 116. l. 31. r. if all p. 144. l. 15. 16. r. more then good ones evill once for more the good ones evil , which is set twice ore . In Exerc. 2. p. 12. l. 30. r. thou shootest , p. 66. l. 11. 12. r. live in sin p. 137. l. 21. r. Rounds p. 164. l. 33. r. and l. 35. r. such silly . In Ex. 3. p. 5. M. for emul●ate ●enucl●ate p. 35. l. 7. r. stirs & strifes M. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 64. M. for ut r. at p. 37. mar . r. divinus p. 312. mar . r. Scripturae Author p. 132. l. 19. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 136. l. 12. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 13. r. upholder p. 141. l. 5. r. for the Scriptures l. 14. r. malicious p. 154. mar . r. Synonimous p. 174. l. 8. r. more then th●se p. 187. l. 17. r. streining . In Exerc. 4. p. 3. 1. 12. blot out we p. 9. 1. 20. blot out of p. 13. 1. 17. r. no indirect l. 39. r. but by p. 133. l. r4 . r. [ Apage ] p. 16. l. 18. r. and in p. 205. l. 9. r. denomination p. 221. mar . r. Israél , Midian , Ahaz . In the Appendix p. 24. l. 13. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the two sheets at the end p. 1. l. 18. for have have r. have . Sundry more Typ●graphical Errors prob●bly there are uncorrected , then I can on a sudden cast my eyes on , by some of which possibly the sense is interrupted , but of all that are , I may safely Say [ with I. O. in his Vindication of the Entireness to a Tittle of the Originall Texts ] bate all such as are Evident mista●es , consisting only in superfluity and redundancy of unnecessary ● deficiency of words necessary to the sense of the place , that is to say A● of what sort soever , and then there will be few or none at all . In a word , Let Every Reader do the Printers that [ wonted ] Right of Winking at their [ wonted ] doing Wrong : And as I , by their Failing , have fallen under the Common Fate , so I ask no more but that Common Favour , of Non-Imputation of their Faults to Me , ● as Mine . Typographi ●e Reputentur Amici . S. F. THE PREFACE . John Owen , who hast been stiled Doctor in Divinity , and Dean of Christ-Church Coll. Oxon. and Thomas Danson , stiled M. A. Minister of the Gospel , at Sandwich in Kent , and late Fellow of Magdalen Coll. Oxon. I Have taken a view of three books of you two lately extant , against the People commonly called Quakers ; namely , of thy threefold Thing , I. O. or double-tongu'd piece of Divinity doings about the Letter and the Light , lyingly relating in other parts of it ( partly ) and in its Latine part ( principally ) to the Quakers . Also T. D. of thy two little fard●es of much falshood , generally superscribed with these two untrue Titles , viz. 1 The Qua. folly made manifest to all men , in Auswer to R. Hub. 2 The Qua. Wisdome descends not from above , in Answer to G. Whit. replying to the other . For the Truths sake , which now lies at stake openly between you two , and them , I am minded , as moved in way of Reply , to say something to both your Books , and to your selves , and the world also about them . I intend not a total Translation of that forraign Language , wherein that foresaid Latine part of thine I. O. in which thou fight st most fiercely with thy fore-nam'd Friends , was written ( so much of that shall serve , as will serve the turn of such Truths as I h●ve plead against thee in the service of ) nor a total transcription of either of your books ( they are not worth it ) not yet an Answer to every falsity that is found therein ( Hoc opus , luc labor est , they are more then my measure of Arithmetick can easily reach to reckon up ) But a due Expostulation with you both , on the Quakers and the Truths behalf ; an Animadversion of some at least of those many absolute absurdities , follies , confusions , false doctrines , flat contradictions to yourselves , which are eve● and anon therein uttered by you ; a Subversion of your Topsie-Turvies , who set the chief things ye have to do , withall A●chi-podialiter ( as it were ) with the heels upwards ; a Blowing away of those blasphemies , lies , calumnies , opprobrious titles , disdainful subsannations , unjust accusations , spiteful aspersions , abominable abuses breat●d out by you against the people abovesaid , whom , all that curse , shall once see and say , are a Seed , whom God hath blessed ; and ( to be short ) an Examination of many such matters in every part of both your Books , how scamblingly soever they lye , here some , and there some in them , as I find bear any reference to the Qua. or to those Doctrines , viz. 1 Of Iustification by the Righteousness of Christ in us : 2 Of the Letters not being the only Foundation and Rule of Faith and holy life : 3 Of the Infallible Spirits Inspiration , and Infallible direction of his Ministry at this day : 4 Of the Vniversal love and grace of God to all men : 5 Of the True saving Light of Christ , enlightning every man in the world : 6 Of the Attainableness of perfect purity , or freedome from sin in this life , in each of which ye differ from them , and which against you both , and your Adherents , are held forth by them . Sundry false and grosly absurd businesses against the Light , and its Children , may not improbably be briefly noted , as they lye most notably obvious to every common capacity , in the nine Sermons of Iohn Tombs , B.D. which came piping hot from the Press , while this of mine to you two , is coming to it , put out by R. Baxter ; which pair of blind Brethren , as much enmity , threatning , and Thunder without Lightning , as hath been between them hitherto against each other , are it seems , like Herod and Pilate , now made friends together against Christs Light , so as to make one Head , though two Horns , wherewith to thrust it down if they could , for which a Rod , a Rod in the Lords hand , is already ready for the back of Baxter , who , and his once Heretical and Heterodox , but now Reverend and Orthodox Brother Tombs , as two Twins that tumbled both out of one Belly , even one and the same Womb of that Babylonish Bawd , are both to be tumbled into one and the same Tomb , or Grave , that ( as your two I. O. T. D. ) so their pair of pratings may go together into the earth , whence they came , as like to like , earth to earth , ashes to ashes , for dust , which is the Serpents meat , all your Divinity doings are , and unto dust must they all return . Now as little method as thy Book I. O. hath in it , yet is it as capable to be divided into parts , as it is in each part , in one thing or another , most palpably divided against it self . 1 As to the subject matter thereof , it is in general twofold , ( viz. ) The Outward Letter , and the Inward Light ; that External writing , or legible form of words , commonly called the Scripture , the Holy Scriptures , which are ( ad extra , but ab intra ) only and meerly without , though from within ; together with that Internal Law , Spirit , Power , or Word , which is ( ad intra ) by all that know the Truth , as it is in Iesus , both seen , felt , heard , understood , and witnessed to be within , not more cryed up by the men call'd Quakers , who live both according to it , and the Scripture , then decryed by the men that are but supposed to be Christs Ministers , who are utterly erring besides them both , knowing truly neither the one , nor yet the other . Sund●y touches there are given by thee , as thou goest along , at other things ; ( viz. ) Vniversal Grace , Perfection , Persecution , Modern Inspiration by the Spirit of God , Revelation , and such like , about which thine and the Quakers Doctrine differs , by which ( as ex pede Herculem ) thy Pulse is felt , and it 's spied out how thy Spirit blows against Christs ; thy truthless talk , of which may ( the Lord leading to it ) not unlikely be talked with by the way , before I have done : But those two abovesaid , being well nigh the Totum in Toto , & the Totum in qualibet parte , the matters thou mainly medlest with , and most miserably mudlest thy self about , thoroughout the whole Body of thy Book , and every part thereof , making little less then a very God of the one , i. e. Of the Letter , which is the last and the least , and the lowest of the two ; and little better then a very Devil of the other , i. e. the Light , which is the first , and the highest , and the greatest ; so that all others are but toucht upon , as in subserviency either to the Deifying , or defying ( respectively ) of one of these , to clear away that fog and smoak which thou raisest about them , both to the thickning and darkning of the Sun and Ayr , so that none can see either of them clearly , through thy cloudy collation thereupon , is the chief intent , and likely to be the chief and utmost extent of this present Answer . 2 As to the Tongue wherein it treats , ( excepting here and there a little Hebrew , and ( for shew sometimes more then service ) a penful or two of Greek interlin'd in both parts , and now and then two or three licks of Latine among the English ) thy Book stands divided into two parts , ( viz. ) Latine , and English ( a Cloven Tongue of another nature then those that sate upon the Apostles ) and these are as the two Horns of that second double-fac'd Beast , that is as the Lamb , and yet speaks like the Dragon , wherewith thou pushest at thy Opposers on the right hand , as well as on the left , even not only at thy own Brethren , the Protestant Divines , when they please thee not by Divining the contrary to thy peremptory peculiar Positions , and preheminent pratings , together with that blind Brood of the first ten-horn'd Beast of Rome , to whom both thou and all thy Brethren ( though in many things ye justly band against them ) are Brothers in nature still , and of neerer Kin then ye well ken or wot of , but also against the true People of God. These two general parts ( each of which is prefaced with an Epistle also in language like it self ) stand divided and subdivided more particularly within themselves , ( viz. ) the English into two Treatises , which subdivide themselves , the one into six Chapters , the other ( though falsly figured ) into eight , the Latine into four Apologetical Exercitations ( as thou call'st them ) for the Holy Scriptures , against ( as thou call'st the Quakers ) the Fanatical Ones of these Times . Which fore-named divisions and subdivisions , that are scarcely more divided from then against each other , do all split themselves yet fu●ther into a new needless number of smaller Sections and Th●ses . The two English Treatises which arise mostly from one and the same Spring or Head , together with the other ( not God , nor his Spirit , nor yet the Scriptures , but the Head of the Serpent which is to be bruised , thy own brain , vain invention , and imagination ) run along treating to and fro in two distinct streams , or Torrents awhile , and at last , having ( as thou sayst ) Arctissimum materiae & doctrine consortium , a neer coincidence of their matter with it , and affinity in their subject , by which the whole Trinity of them is drawn into that Unity to compleat thy double Doctrine ( far ) from the Scriptures , for the Scriptures , fall into one with the Latine Sourse , or Lake of Lyes , that burns more hotly then the rest in wrath against the Quakers . And having there lodg'd and center'd thy two English Discourses , and drawn them into one with this , ( verifying herein that old true saying , Vis unita fortior ) thou ventest that venome in stronger streams , and spittest out that spite more fluently , and in fuller floods against the Qua. which was in some few places only sprinkled out upon them before , and filling up what was behind of thy flattering false Applauses of the naked Letter , which with some of the same that were used before , and some new super-eminent undue Titles thou● here also magnifiest , beyond the bounds and measure of all modesty and truth , hoping belike to appear approved of Christ , as one of note in his service , ( what disservice soever thou do him otherwise ) so long as thou art found saying something ( though Hoc aliquid nihil est , as good thou hadst said just nothing as no more to the purpose ) and raking , and skimming , and scraping out of thy own thoughts some ample Apologies for the Scriptures , thou fillest up thy measure of mad mirth against that true inward Light of God , and its Children , that testifie unto it , as that which is to be preferred before the Letter , and was before it , as that which the Letter was given forth from , despising these , as in thy English Epistle , p. 28. p. 30. under the ( as false as foul ) terms of poor deluded Fanatical Qua. pretending to be guided by an Infallible Spirit , that oppose the whole truth about the Word of God , so there under the abusive clamours against , and charges of them ( even by whole-sale ) as Fanatical ones , that are notoriously known by their errours and foolishness , who are driven by the power of an Evil Spirit , & depressing the Light ( which is the Name of Christ exalted above all Names ) without any colour of light , or tolerable evidence of Scripture , or Reason , that it is by ten thousand degrees so bad a business as thou makest of it , into so low a condition , as wherein to stand in need ( so far as a thing that needs no such thing , but infallibly evidenceth its own Innocency and Excellency , may be said to need it ) of such Apology , as at the end of this work thou wilt find me making for it , and so as to put it under every name that is named , not only of things in Heaven , or pertaining any way to the Kingdome thereof , but of things in earth too ; and ( if ens be better then non ens , as ye count it , and a being , though a bad one , be better then none at all ) under things that are under the earth also , setting it at naught , so as to render it worse then naught , till ( what in thee is ) thou quite annihilatest , and mak'st just ●ought or nothing of it at all : Having made unto thy self a Graven Image , and Golden God , of that meer Image thou hast by thee , of the old Original Copies of the Scriptures , in thy frothy , vain , light , and yet dark and lightless mind , thou dost , Hos omnes naso suspendere adunco , ironically fall a scoffing at the Qua. and the true Light of the true God , and consequently at the true God from whom it comes , puffing at it , as if thou wouldst puff it out at a blast , making thy self merry over it among thy Academical Admirers , laughing both it , and all that own it , and so him that gives it out , even to very scorn , terming it , ( as if thou knewst not what to call it that is bad enough for it ) I know not what Light , that hath no community or correspondency with the Scriptures , and ( jeeringly ) the Infa●lible D●ct●r , that counterfeited Light , or Word within , the feigned Imaginary Christ , I know not what God , or plen●iful Horn of the Heavenly Goat , better then any God , ● h●rrible figment , a certain Imaginary Christ they lyingly devise , which is a Light within common to all , I know not what spiritual every thing , that is truly nothing , the meer imaginary and fancied Christ of a s●rt of Fanatical men , I know not what Divine Quality , or Soul of the World , mingled into all things , which may be every thing , and in very need is just nothing . Thus when thou hast made thy self sport enough with vilifying the Light of Christ , and Christ , who is the Light , thou art pleased to end thy Play with a nullifying of it , and so de nihilo nihilum , nihil in nil , &c. out of this nothing there can come nothing ; and thou having done thy do with it , hopest to hear no more of it , away it must without more ado , having nothing to do , in rerum natura , but to make I. O. merry a while , and at his will to become nothing again . But I. O. — Hoc ego opertum , Hoc Ridere meum ( tam nil ) nulla tibi vendo Scriptura vel inane tua quacunque vel ipsa . As very nothing as this Light of Christ , and Word within is with thee and thine , whose thin somethings , and empty every things , in which you yet bless your selves , are wearing out ; and mouldring to nothing , yet such as know the true worth thereof , will not so undervalue it , as to sell it for any of thy vain Scripture for the Scripture , nor for the best of that best Scripture , which thy vain Scripture for it prefers before it , which Scripture yet , as to its own proper place and use , they are far before thy self in preferring . And howbeit , thou deemest that the Light thou so damn'st down to nothing , hath done with thee , thou having thus done with it , and done it away as far from thee , as a man of thy Cloth can likely fling it ; yet there is an hour thou art not ware of , wherein thy self and it must meet again , in which it will find thee out for all thy floutings of it , and come nigh to thee to Judgement , as a swift Witness against thee , for more things then that , which thou hast forgotten , and set all that thou hast done in thy vile body in remembrance , and in order before thee ; and unless thou repent thee in the time , wherein in the goodness of God its given men to lead them to repentance , damn thee for ever , far further from any sight ( as to enjoyment ) of it self and God , then ever thou by all thy Judgement past against it , canst condemn it from thy self , or possibly judge it out of thy sight . As for thy pair of Pamphlets , T.D. they consist more particularly as follows ; viz. The first ( which , besides its piece of Preface , is a meer five-fold fiction ) of a treble Tale , untrue Relation , or cursory , crooked , crude , and decrepid Account of the Three Disputations , that were held at Sandwich , on the twelf , thirteenth , nineteenth daies of the second Moneth , 1659. between thy self , and three of us called Quakers , viz. R. Hubberthorn , G. Whitehead , and my self ; together with a short Answer , as ( to the saving me that labour , who should else have so entitled it ) thy self most truly superscribedst it , p. 34. ( for indeed thy Devils Bow shoots too short , either to hit the mark thou shootest at , or hurt that innocent Lamb-like Spirit , that speaks in that , or any other , of R. H. his writings ) to a trifling Pamphlet put forth by R. H. as thou triflingly termst it : And lastly , A brief Narrative ( so thou nam'st that last and most Remarkable part thereof ) of some Remarkable Passages . The second , which , besides thy Epistle and Preface , is but as it were a lesser Chump of the same old Wooden Block with the other , subdividing and cleaving it self out also into five smaller chips , fit for little else but fewel for the same fire , by which ( as by the day that now declares the Workman , and his Work , of what sort it is ) they are all to be both revealed , consumed , and burnt up , among the rest of those bryars and thorns that are setting themselves to battel against the Lord , and of those buildings of wood , hay and stubble , which the Scornets of the Corner-stone are erecting to their own ruine ; viz. a kind of Epitomical repetition of what was shufflingly said by thy self in thy first Tritie , concerning the four Heads , or rather and indeed against these four points of Doctrine , viz. 1 The Light of Christ. 2 Perfection . 3 Iustification . 4 The Scriptures ; with frequent references to thy ( so call'd ) Qua. folly , for the rest of thy Replyes to us , who had replied to them all ore and ore again before . And lastly , another Narrative ; ( not so call'd by thee ) yet for the lies and naughtiness thereof , and nothing else , much more Remarkable then the former , as will be seen in my Animadversion of it . Having said this little to you both , I.O. and T. D. about your Books , by way of Preface , or Dedication , of what hereafter follows , to your selves , and all your Followers and Fellow-Labourers in the like lame cause , who belabouring your selves in talk about the Letter against the Light , live and walk more by the false fire , and twinkling flash of your own thred-bare thoughts and infatuated imaginations , then either by the Letter , or the Light. I come now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without much Preamble , or more ado , ad rem substratam , to the businesse and work it self , as it lies before me . And howbeit , I shall not regard any External form , order , or methodical manner of proceeding with you , so much as words and matter of profit and truth it self , yet as there is a Quaternity of you , or rather a Fraternity of four angry Fighters or Quarrellers with the Quakers , and the truths told by them , viz. I. O. T. D. I. T. R. Baxter , all whom , first or last , one where or other , more or lesse , I shall have to do with : So ( though not therefore ) I shall divide my ensuing undertakings against you , in the Name and Power of God on their behalf , in such wise , as thou I. O. dost thy Doctor-like Divinity Disputations , or Latine-labours against them , viz. into four Apologetical Exercitations , or Earnest Expostulations with you . The first whereof is to be more down-rightly directed to thee T.D. ( the rest , who are of the same misty mind with thee , not excluded ) in way of Examination of that Legend of Lyes , which thou , like some great Benefactor to it , bestowest on the Clergies Cause , against the Truth , and its Children ; and as concerning the point of Iustification in special , which thou makest thy self a main Mannager of against us for all the rest , who say little of it , and in which thou , by thy lies about it , in both Doctrine and matter of fact , most basely abusest both thy self , and the Truth , and my self in particular , and all the Qua. in general also . The second is to be most peculiarly directed to thee I. O. in Examination of sundry of thy base belyings and misreportings of the Qua. as to their mis-behaviour toward the Scripture ; about which T. D. who sides with three therein , doth but give us a short snap and away ; and as concerning the very formal being , nature , Text , or Letter or the Scripture it self , ye call your Canon , the B●unds or measure of that your supposed Canon , the Hebrew Puncta●ion , Integrity of the Text to a Tittle without Various ●ection , and such like passages , which thou more preheminently pratest on , then all thy Fellows . The third is to relate ( though partly to T. D. and partly to I. T. and R. B. al●o , as being all three in some sort tampering together with thee in the same muddy manner , about ( at least ) some of the same mistaken matters , yet ) principally to thee I. O. who , in the dark dream of thy night Vision , drivest on more down rightly , as the Prime Promoter of these Principles , viz. that the Scripture , and every syl●●●le and Iota thereof , is the Word of the Great God , the most efficacious , powerful , all-sufficient , all-perfecting , heart-searching , soul-saving , living , life-giving Word of the living God ; that it , even that outward writing , Letter , External Text , and not any such thing as an Internal Word of God , Spirit , or Light within , is the only Infallible Guide , Incorruptible Canon , perfect Rule of all Faith , holy life , saving Spiritual Knowledge , or Worship ; the most certain Sanctuary for the preservation of all Sacred Truth , the most sure Touch-stone , stable standard , firm Foundation , true Witness of God , the most invariable , inviolable way of safety and security to all Divine Verity , the most absolutely necessary means of Spiritual and Eternal life , cum multis aliis quae nunc praescribere longum est , with much more ( id genus ) of the same soure leven too long to be reckon'd up here , sith they are all to be elsewhere reckon'd with in due time and place . The fourth will be promiscuously and interchangeably carried on by way of entercourse with you both , ( I. O. and T. D. ) which two only were intended to be by me so much as medled with , when I first was throughly resolv'd on some Reply to your rude reproachings of the Truth , As concerning your denial of the universality and sufficiency to save such as heed it , of the Light and Grace of God in all mens hearts , of modern , immediate , Divine Inspiration of Perfection , as to the purging away of sin in this life , and as concerning your Dream of a peremptory Election and Reprobation of persons unborn , viz. of very few to life , and of many to one as unchangeably to damnation , without respect to their doing good or evil in their life ; about all which , as occasion is , I must have , in a few words , a round reckoning with you both , ( I. T. R. B. and all the rest of that self-reverencing black-mouth'd Brotherhood , as blindly banding in one body in the self-same mist of darkness , not excluded ) for the Rounds ye run in , as to those particulars at the latter end , i. e. in the said fourth and last part of these foresaid Presents , in which , as occasion is , ye four aforesaid Fellow-Fighters for your own follies against Gods Wisdome , are likely , little or more , to be all bespoken , in one or other of the Chapters , into which also I shall subdivide the fore named four divisions . If ye four Foxes , that spoil the Vine and her tender Grapes , whereof ( inter-scribendum ) one successively still started out afresh upon me , as I was pursuing the sent , and chasing the other , had like those of Sampsons ▪ turned tail to tail in all points , ( as in some ye do ) and took several wayes , ye could not so well have been caught altogether , as now ye may , notwithstanding all your Majestical craft ; but sith ye face all one way , and joyntly steer your course in general to one Cave running parallel into the same Wood of your own wisdome , there housing your selves in the same holē , dreaming altogether of no danger neer you , in one Den of Darkness , there needs no more , but to set something to the Mouth of that bottomless Pit ye all belong to , out of which the Fox-like strong sent , and stinking savour of your erroneous Tenets vents it self , to the poysoning of poor peoples Souls throughout the whole Countryes where your respective beings are , and so digging you out of your foresaid Dens , put you altogether into a Bag. S.F. The First Apologetical , and Expostulatory Exercitation . CHAP. I. FIrst then , though they came out last , and began to fly abroad some while after I. Owens , yet I shall begin with thy two Butterflyes , T.D. which have flown up and down the World , not only upon the wind of their own wings , but also , as fast and far as they could carry them , upon the light chaffy leaves of the whiffling News-books , for some few moneths together , to the frightning of all such folk as are befool'd into an Implicit Faith of thy folly to be wisdome , out of that little wisdome they have , by that fearful flutter they have made thorowout as well the Cities , as Vniversities and Countryes , with that fal●e , flashy and fair-flourishing Title of the Quakers Folly , under a meer empty seeming shew of manifesting whereof to all men , thou hast more truly in the eyes of wise men , and more fully manifested thy own , and that so egregiously , that Petulanti splene Cachinno , some man of a light spirit , and ticklish spleen , so much concern'd in the all manner of ridiculosities thereof , as I and my two Friends of Truth , Rich. Hubberthorn , and Geo. Whitehead , who together with me , who am very much , are not a little belyed therein , would have sent them home to their Author long since with no other Rod at their backs , then some loud laughter thereat before the world , they being worthy of little better Reply : Howbeit , I have answered them hitherto with no other then sober silence , partly because the first is captivated already from doing so much mischief as it was designed to , and both before and behind too well besieged to do any great Execution against the Truth , being , a Priori , beset by a Book of R. Hubberthorns , which it gives ( as it faith it self , p. 34. ) a short Answer to , & a Posteriori , by a Book of G. Whiteheads , in which it is as soberly and ●ufficiently replayed to , and partly ( if not principally ) because , as I.Os. three Treatises have one with another , as he saith , Arctissimum materiae seu Doctrinae consortium , so thy two books have with his , as to the Doctrinal parts , such an affinity in subject , and co-incidence of matter ( being both di putatory , more or less , against the self-same truths the Qua. tell ) that in answering the one , the other remains not unanswered ; and as to the Narrative parts of both , which are full of false Narrations ( if two false tongues of two lying Linguists be like one another ) haud Linguae dissidium , scarce more difference in Language then thus , that as I.Os. book tells tales in some , so both thine do in some other particulars against the Qua. , insomuch that I saw I might , as also I accordingly do , though the bulk hereof thereby become bigger , and the time of its coming out to publike view a little later then was once intended , in replying to I.O. in many places , wherein he and thou T. Danson ( who , eodem horrendo ●ercussi scotomate , dance the R●unds often together in the dark ) do meet in one , easily interpose such a general Answer , and render such a round Reply to thee and thine , together with him and his , as by which the Truth , I singly seek to vindicate , may be truly served , though what I do is scarce so smarting a Rod , as by thy two abusive businesses is truly deserved ; and that what is fit to be said , by way of Answer to thee , that is so over-p'us , that it can conveniently come in neither directe , nor collateraliter , as miscellaneous among the matter that mainly relates to I.O. might ( as it is here , and as it is but meet ) be clapped on as additional at the beginning . I shall begin with the Wings of thy two Pamphlets , each of which hath two waxen ones a piece , viz. an Epistle , and a Narrative , which by the help of those lyes , and false tales , they are , as with so many Peacocks tails , behung with , they fly so high at the face of the Sun itself , even the Light and Truth of the living God , that they melt of themselves before the heat thereof , and must , at last , lye as low ( though they sore aloft for a while ) as the very Pit of Perdition , the smoak of which , together with their Fellow - Locusts , they first came out from . These their two respective wings , whereof I know not which to call the left , and which the right ( so sinister are they all , and so little dexterity is therein any of them ) being a little cropt , or closely clipt , the barebodies of both T.Ds. Divinity books , as they will never soundly recover of those wounds that each of them hath had already from the hands of of G.W. and L.H. respectively replying to them , so of the further bruises which they , together with I.Os. Academical Ousets , and hasty Assaults of the same Generation of Just ones , are like to meet with in this ensuing encounter , they will be disinabled from flying abroad so fast , as to do any mischief where the night spends , and the day dawns , though they may possibly live so , as to crawl and creep about a while in some Collegian Cells , and other such like dark corners of the earth . My Entrance shall be at thy Epistles , in the first of which thou T.D. sayest , Perhaps the Reader will wonder that thou shouldst meddle with such a Generation as the Quakers , and think thy time hangs on the lug , and will not off at any considerable rate . Rep. I confe●s I am one of those Readers , that more then think thou mightst have spent thy time far more considerably , and to better purpose , to have fully fell on with the Qua. in that good work , then to fall upon them for it so fouly as thou dost , of calling thy rude people to repentance from all sin , into perfect purity and holiness , the very thing thou pretendest to have thy wages for . But when I consider the old Proverb , that all Trades must live , and that thine , as well as that of the Lawyers , is no longer liv'd , then while people live and die in trespasses and sins , I wonder no more then at Demetrius , and his fellow Silver-Smiths , of like occupation , who , by that cast of keeping men in sinful blindness , having their wealth , throw dust into the ayr against the Light , that would lead them out , that thou and thy muddy Generation meddle so much as ye do , to muddle mens minds against such an Enlightening and Purifying a Generation as the Qua. are ; and besides , Prov. 20.3 . Every fool will be medling , as Iannes and Iambres were , as thou and I.O. * are , to manifest the Qua. notorious folly in these daies , till they most notoriously manifest their own . T. D. Thou tellest , 'T was never thy ambitīon to appear so publikely as in print . Rep. It had not need , unless thou hadst better ware then thou hast , the darkness , which vents it in thee , is the likeliest place to put it off in , it being not vendible in the light . T. D. That hadst thou consider'd the likelihood of the Qua. printing , which would necessitate thine , thou shouldst likely have waved any discourse with them . Rep. Insipient is est dicere non pura●om : It s as much Innocencies ambition to appear openly in the service of Truth , as 't is the guise of Guilt to hide its head : Thou mayst well think the Qua. who are in the truth it self , which thou art not yet so much as ( truly ) in the words of , will not be out-weigh'd by the wind of one that ( as thou sayst thou didst ) chuses rather to out-word them ; and whether thou appear any more publikely for thy lyes and doctrines of vanities yea or nay , yet the truth , which may be a while opprest , never sapprest , * will now lye no more hidden under the black dawb of darkning School-distinctions , but will appear , and shine forth more and more , as the morning light to the perfect day , so that ye may to as much purpose forbid the Sun from rising in its time , as busie your selves as ye do , to blind honest-minded men as ye have done . T. D. That Repentance is now too late , and perhaps unmeet , for God can serve himself by the meanest Instruments , among which thou rankest thy self . Rep. Not too late yet , much less unmeet , so be thou come back by a true Repentance , as is most meet thou shouldst , not only for , but from thy inconsiderate opposition ; for the Lord will receive thee , through Judgement done upon thy lyes , to mercy , for all that 's past , in and by the same Light thou art yet an hater of , if yet thou wilt unfeignedly look back to it , and follow on to know him in it , while he strives with thee by it in thy own conscience , and convinces thee of all thy evil deeds thou hast done , and that he requires thee to depart from , who can and doth serve himself by meaner Instruments then thou mayst be made ( as meanly as thou , truly enough , confessest thou hast serv'd him hitherto ) in case thou quit thy old Master the Devil , whose now falling Kingdome thou art helping hard to uphold , while thou Pleadst so strictly , as thou dost to little purpose , the necessity of all mens sinning while they live , and serve the Lord as strictly , and sincerely against sin and Satan in thy self first , and then in others , otherwise Repentance it self may prove too late indeed , and will too , if thou turn not at the reproof of Wisdome , that , as far as thou art from it , is nigh thee in thy heart , till it scorneth the scorners of it : In love therefore to thy Soul , the sin whereof I hate , as it is the Enemy of it , as late as it is , be advi●ed in time ; qui non ante cavet post dolebit , better late then never . T. D. Thou sayest , Thou hopest thy Reader will see the Qua. out of their disguise . Rep. I hope so too , out of that wherewith T.D. and I.O. have both disguis'd and disfigur'd them , by then he hath read what R.H.G.W. L.H. have written to thee before , and what hereafter follows , or el●e he is one of those Readers of us , I.O. complains of , P. 29. of his Epistle , whose interest compels him to chuse rather to be ignorant of Truth and us , then to be taught truth by us ; and if any will either let our books alone , or rejectingly read them , and will needs be ignorant , let him be ignorant ; as we cannot make such a one better , so , what ere he does , we are never the worse . T. D. That he will find cause to speak of the Qua. with pitty and compassion . Rep. So I hope too , when he shall see how miserably the men , call'd Ministers , do misrepresent them , and by their lyes abuse and wrong them to the world . T. D. And of their Opinions with hatred and detestation . Rep. With hatred and detestation of those Opinionists , who , being but in their meer thoughts of the things of God themselves , deem the Qua. ( who are past Opinions , and know him that is true , and are in him that is true , and the Truth it self , knowing also themselves to be of God , and that the whole world lyes in wickedness , 1 Ioh. 5.19 , 20. ) to be but where themselves are , namely , in their own vain Imaginations and Opinions , and damn down also to hell it self those our Opinions ( as they call them ) which are the only plain , pure , infallible way to Eternal life , as that deformed Monster ( so he calls it too ) which T.D. in the next page of this Epistle , and in his first Narrative , sprinkles into the name of Quakerisme ; and I.O. ore , and ore , and ore again , in his Contra Fanaticos , into those of Enthusiasme Fanaticisme , nescio quid , and as many more as come at last to vere nihil , or truly nothing . T. D. Next thou promisest thy Reader ( and no more then thou sayst also shall be performed ) viz. A true Account of the Discourses ( so much of them as was Argumentative , and pertinent to the Questions under Debate ) or , as 't is in thy Title page , A true Relation of what passed in three Disputations , Apr. 12. 13. 19. 1659. between thy self and three Qua. G.W.R.H. S.F. Rep. Hadst thou entitled thy True Account , True Relation , thus , viz. A false Account , A false Relation , thou hadst sav'd thy self the labour of one lye at least , for then thy Title had been as true an Account of thy Book , as thy Book is not a True , but a meer counterfeit Account of the Disputations ; but as 't is , thou hast told a lye more then ordinary , which hath its being ( as a lye ) from no other clause so much , as from that term of ( True ) thy work being ( as will appear ) not only a very broken and decrepid , but also a very untrue and false Relation of those affairs it pretends to relate to ; so that by saying ( True ) here , thou hast spoken falsly ; whereas , hadst thou in stead of ( True ) said ( False ) thou hadst in so doing said no other then the very truth . In which true Relation of those Discourses ( as thou falsly callest it ) how well thou hast quitted thy self , as to such an honest and true Account , as is here so faithfully promis'd , any honest man that was then present may see : When as 1. Set aside thy own large and lax * Answers . 2. Set aside thy own confessed Enlargements of the said Lax , and still as mouldy , though new-mouled Answers , with thy often long ( let me Add's ) p. 5. 14. 17. 19. 23. 27. the whole of what passed from all us three , in all three of the Discourses , which lasted about seven or eight houres apiece , is Anatomiz'd well nigh all away , or at least Epitomiz'd into so small a pittance , as may be read over , if set close together , in less space then the seventh or eighth part of one . And howbeit , thou wast dealt with , and measured back to from us , more by weight then by multitude of words , wherewith , for the ignorance sake of common people ( as thou sayst , whereby thou mayst see what a people thou hast , whose life lies more in thy words , then in Christs works ) thou chosest to out-word us , as seeing thou must say somewhat ( as thou sayst , and no matter what say I ) or let us have all the talk , to the prejudice of the cause thou defendest ; yet were we not so far behind thee ; as to number , as thou seemest to set us in thy curtail'd Account ( or else the more shame still to thy self and thine , who cried out so often to us , that we had all the talk , and took up all the time ) nevertheless , thou therein takest about nine parts of talk to thy self , and allowest us the Tythe , then which thou knowst the Qua. had rather have just nothing ; insomuch , that such as are more ready to believe thee , then Truth , may well think by thy crowding us all up into such a corner of thy Account , thy other Tales to be true thou so often tellest for thy Credits sake , concerning our mouths being stopt , our being silenced , our having nothing to say , our sitting down as astonish'd , and p. 8. 13. 18. as if it had been with T.D. as 't was with Christ , when the Scribes were silenced by him ; So that from that time forward none durst ask him any more Questions , being so astonisht at his Vnderstanding and Answers , Matth. 22.46 . Whereas I , who was as likely to have seen it as T.D. discern'd no such thing among any of us , as being silenced , and having our mouths stopt from having any thing to say , save only that we were often silenced , and stopt from uttering that we ever had to say , by the wicked ragings of thy turbulent spirited people , who were ever foaming out their own shame , and casting up mire and dirt in a restle's manner till we were silent , when uttering any thing whereby they perceived thee likely to be hampered . * Nor know I any of us that were astonished at any thing that was seen in T.Ds. Disputes , more then ordinary , save the bruitish stupidity of some of his D●ctrinal Assertion● , which though , he sayes , he blushes not at himself , in his Epistle to the second Pamphlet , but is so far from being asham'd of that , as he two or three times own'd them audaciously before , so he there professes , if all the World could hear his voice , he would confess as his Faith to this day ; Yet I know some asham'd and astonisht at his un-Saint-like sottishness therein , more especially those two or three , which I shall name only here , being el●ewhere to examine them ; viz. his holding it with T.R. that 't is a Doctrine of Devils , to preach a possibility of mens freedome from sin in this life , p. 47. 2 His saying , that David , when he was guilty of Adultery and Murder , was not in a condemned state , but in a justified estate : 3 That Pauls own righteousness , and so all the Saints righteousnesses inherent , are Christs , and no other then what they receive from him , and he works in them , and serve , though not for Iustification , and right to the Inheritance , yet for Sanctification , and to make meet for possession of it , and yet are no other then dung and filthy rags , p. 15.22 . As for any Astonishment , unless it were at the grossness of these & other of thy absurd Doctrines , and thy own impudent persistance in them , I know none in any of us . But 't is like T.D. thou wast concern'd on the account of thy prayer , thus to relate our mouths to be stopped : Thou tellst the world , p. 1. That after a brief * Account of the occasion of the Dispute , and after a short prayer thou mad'st for a blessing on the Meeting ( which , as short as it was , will be long enough ere it be heard , considering first , that God hears not sinners ; and secondly , that the things askt were not according to the Will of God ; for as one of the two grand Petitions of it was , That we poor wretches might be made to acknowledge the Light in us to be darkness , which we never have done , nor shall do , I trust , any more then its utterly unfit we should , for we know its the Eternal Light of the Lord Iesus Christ , and the only true Light that leads to Eternal Life ; so the other was , that our mouths might be so stopt , that we might not say any thing : Which two Petitions , as we did not joyn with thee in thy putting up , so since thou sawst thou purst up in vain , there being no answer to them from God , 't was as vain for thee , in the Account of thy Prayer , to set them down ; whereupon , or else upon some other occasion , thou forbearst it ) which that it might not seem altogether unanswered ( as I hear say it was ) we have now and then such a showre as this sprinkled up and down , here and there , in thy Account of the Dispute , that we were silent , had nothing to say , sate down astonisht , and had our mouths stopt . And as I said above , if there were all we said , that thou sent down , ( though , as it stands in that cursory way thou renderst it in , it stands strong enough against thy pitteous Pot-gun Pellets , and poor Replyes it might also seem true , that as thou prayedst , and mad'st intercession against us , so it fell out indeed , viz. that we were sometimes silent , having well nigh nothing to say ; for of about twenty houres conference that was held between us three , and T.D. in those three daies , nine or ten whereof may well be supposed to be ours , thou 〈◊〉 down to us as much as may be spoken over in about half one half hour , or in half a quarter ; and yet entitlest this thy diminutive doings , A true Account of those Discourses , A true Relation of what passed ; and yet in all this , thou art so far from blushing , or being asham'd , that though G.W. truly and justly charg'd it on thee in his book , how thou wrongedst us , by laying down things in our names , which we never spake , and diminishing from our words , and making false ●o●structions : In the Epistle of this Second part to the same tune , thou impudently declarest , that howbeit thou art come upon the Stage once more , not without a blush , yet 't is not as one ashamed * of thy Doctrines , nor yet as one conscious to thy self of wronging the Qua. in thy Relation of the Disputes between thee and them , either by laying down things in their Names , they never sp●ke , ●r diminishing from their words , or making false constructions of them , which is enough well nigh , to make a modest man blush to hear thee say , in Answer to G.Ws. Charge , and yet not blush at it , since its most notoriously evident to all that will see , when they may , thou hast both added to , and altered , by false construction , and diminisht from our words , to the absolute abusing of us to the World. 1 Altered thou hast , and faultred fonly in that very thing , wherein G.W. instances , as concerning Justification by the Righteousness of Christ , and his Spirits working in us , which the Spirit calls Ours , which thou const●uest , and so represent'st it to the world , as if I had said , we are justified by such Works of Ours , as are filthy rags , as we confess all Our Righteousnesses wrought one of Christ are , but not any of those of the Church , which Christ works in them , as he did in Paul after his Conversion , which thou mayst blush at thy blasphemy , in calling filthy rags , as if Christ vvrought a righteousness in his people , which is no better then an unclean thing ▪ ●ung , and filthy rags ( of vvhich more anon ) Whereas I said only , by those good vvorks vvhich are vvrought by him in us , and vve vvork in his Povver and Spirit : Did I say T.D. vve stand just before God by any unclean thing , by dung , and filthy rags ? 〈…〉 indeed the Righteousness of Christ , vvhich is imparted to the Saints , and Inherent in them , by vvhich they stand pure in Gods sight , truly , and not suppositively only , dung , an unclean thing , and filthy rags ; but that is thy Blasphemy who so rendredst it , but we know no such rotten , stinking , filthy righteousness that Christ hath , either in himself , or in his Saints . Also thou falsly construest and misrepresentest , both G.W. and all of us , as if we asserted all men to have the knowledge of the Mysteries of the Kingdome of God , for we say not that all know them ( and we know that thou know'st them not ) but that the Kingdome , or Light , that only shews them , is in all men , so that thereby they may know the mysteries of it , though they do not . Also thou most miserably misrepresentest my saying there are degrees among Believer ▪ p. 18. as if I had meant by it ( according to thy own muddy , misty manner of meaning , and supposing in that , and many other matters ) that Believers have a mixture of sin with their grace , and so ex falso suppositis , proceedest to make another meaning of thine own , which is none of mine , that some persons be justified , which never did fulfill the Law personally , and rakest up an absurdity , and fatherest it on me , when 't is thine own , for I deny thy imagined mixture of sin with the Saints Graces , as a meer non-sensical saying of thy own , for Grace and Sin can no more mix together , then iron and miry clay , then light and darkness , then Christs true righteousness , and the dung and filthy rags ( which thou supposest to be his also ) which can have no communion together , 2 Cor. 6. And I deny any men to be justified , or any of thy uncessantly ever-sinning Saints , in whose persons the Law is not fulfill'd by the Power of Christ. Also , how guilty , or not guilty thou art found of laying down things in our names which were never spoken by us , in such wise as thou ventest them , and so of wronging us , by adding to our words ( to be-speak thee in thy own words of thy Epist. to the second Pamphlet ) let any understanding man peruse thy first , which occasioned G.Ws. Reply , and he will find , viz. that thou art charged not in falshood , but truly and justly by G.W. charged of falshood , in such passages as have many and credible Witnesses ( if thou count thy own Witnesses credible ) attesting them ; for I shall bring them against thee , even as thou thy self hast ranked them in thy own book , and stand to that very testimony they therein give , as to the tryal of this matter between thy self and me , which if it may be heeded more then thy own single testimony , against both thy self , and all them also , I shall do well enough , as to one of the Archest Accusations thou makest against me . To this purpose , consider all people , that T.D. on his bare head accuses me S.F. p. 14. 15. of his first Pamp. of affirming and disputing it against him , that OVR good works , viz. OVR own righteousnesses , of which it was of old said , and we say the same now ( not intending by that term OVRS , any that Christ works in us ( as T.D. does ) but those we have wrought out of him ) that they are filthy rags , are the meritorious cause of our Iustification : And in the same place asserts the third Question to be stated , affirmed , and prosecuted by me in tho●e very terms , viz. that OVR good works are the meritorious cause , &c. nevertheless the self-fame T.D. ( if it be one and the same T.D. who wrote the Trifle call'd , A True Relation of the Disputes , and that Remarkable Narrative at the end thereof ) in p. 58. of the same foresaid Pamphlet , to the Confutation of himself , and in Proof of his falsification of things in that other place , not only affirms it himself , but also proves it by his many credible Witnesses ( of whom he sayes in his Epistle to his second Toy , they attest the truth , and in the Epistle to his first thus , viz. The Gentlemen Ministers , and others in the Margin , are a few ( of very many ) Witnesses of the terms of the Questions agreed to by the Qua. and of other remarkable passages and matters of fact , who will free me from the suspition of a partial Relator ) that the terms of the third Question were these , viz. Whether good works be the meritorious cause of our Iustification , which ( quoth T.D. ) was expresly affirmed by them , witness in the Margin , Hen. Oxenden , Iob. Boys , Esq Nath. Barry , Tho. Seyliard , Ch. Nichols , Ministers , which terms , say I , are quite diffeferent from the other : Good works , which are only Christs , without that term of ( OVR ) added to them , being one thing , and OVR good works clearly another especially OVRS that are filthy Raggs : So what need further witness to prove T.D. to have added to , and altered our termes , and wronged us by misconstructions ? for the world has it under his own hand , which evinces him to have done so , yet he sayes to his Reader . T. D. As to false construction of their words : If thou thinkest it worth while to compare my false and this mans ( G.W. ) true construction , either thou seest not with mine eyes , or thou wilt see they have no occasion to complaine . Rep. To which say I , If he see with thy eyes indeed , then its like he may see no cause we have to complain of thee , for thy eyes are set the wrong way to see any evill in thy self , while they are not Zach. 9 as all Israells , as one man , are towards the Lord in his light , which only shews to the evill doer his evil Deeds , but are set rather to watch against the Children of it for evill , thy eyes are in tuts talpae , in alienis linces , blind at home , and quicksighted ( the contrary way ) abroad : if they were not , thou could'st never spie so many spots among them that walk in the Spirit , and so few of those foul faults , that are found among thy fellow walkers after the Flesh ; but if any Readers be minded to see with their own eyes , and not thine , they 'l quickly see thee to be what thou art , with whose weak , sore , and sorry eyes , some of Sandwich , whose Seer thou art , do see more then with their own , so that if thou once say'st thou seest what thou but surmisest , and supposest , they ( as I.Os. Juniors are respectively to himward ) are Extempore stupified into a Satisfaction , that they ●ee the same , whether they see it yea or nay , so as to become Iurats into thy Rasn Iudgment , and to sit down with no more then nil ultra quaero plebejus , our Minister , Teacher , or Doctor sayes so , or so . But indeed as the Papists have been long accustomed to drink all the Wine they drink in their Sacrament with their Priests mouths , who impropriate that Element wholly to themselves , so that when Christ said drink ye all of this , they drink it all off , giving the poor people none , so our Protestants have been so long accustomed to see with their Priests eyes , that they have well nigh utterly lost their own , or at least the true fight and right use of their own ; and T. D. I perceive takes it for granted ( or else why saies he thou seest not with my eyes ) that his people should see with his eyes , understand with his understanding , take things in his sence , be of his mind , be moulded in their meanings after the Image of his vain Imagination ; but I say to you all ( O ye people of Sandwich ) you must see with your own eyes , as the Just must live by his own Faith , or else ye will fall with your blind Guide into the Ditch , and if yee come to see with your own , you 'l see we have cause to Complain of T. D.'s . both altering our words and adding to them : & though it be , as to quantity , but little thou hast added , yet as to quality it is so much as egregiously wrongs us ; howbest I must needs say so much for thee T. D. ( and that 's the best I can say to help thee with ) thy Additions to our words are not by far so Voluminous as thy Ablations from them are ; thy Rendition of our Argaments is Rude , Ragged , & wrong enough in all Reason , yet 't is not so much by way of Additanent as Ablation and detraction , ( as I shewed above ) our discourses to thee , whilst thy . own to us are repeated generally by the Dative , are Rendered mostly by the Abla●iu● Case , being rehearsed well nigh totally all away . I know thou say'st thou hast not diminish●d from our words , but that thy dimination of thy deceitfull doings , is but an Addition to thy falshood , and no little Aggravation of thy lies , for which thy unfaithfull dealings with us , and misrepresentation of those matters , as well as for many more misreports , into which the lying spirit hath spawn'd itself forth over ●undry pages of thy whole trifling Pamphlet , and especially throughout thy Narratives Annexed at the ends of both thy Babbles , so farr will thy pretended fence of a few Gentlemen , and ( false ) Ministers be from freeing thee from the suspition thereof , that all faithfull hearers of those discourses , and Impartiall Readers of thy Ragged Relation of them , will lay thee under the Condemnation of not only a partiall Relator , but of a very Lya● also against the truth , as to matters of Account , and not a few matters of fact , about which thou abusest and be●yest the Quakers , both in thy cart Accountative , and in thy much more notorious Narrative pieces of business , which for severall Remarkable follies of thy own therein expressed , are as much as any that I know ( ej●●dem farraginis ) meritoriously to be marked for a pair of white ones ( nigro carbone ) while they have a being under the Sun , which after a few more breif Animadversions on thy Epistles , I am yet in hand with , I shall address to take some Remarkable notice of . T. D. Thou say'st thou hast followed thy Antagonisi G. W. step by step , and omitted nothing that hath the least colour or shew of Reason ( unless where thou makest a reference to thy former Book to avoid Repetition ) lest he should say that like a Child , thou skippest what thou canst not Read. Only thou confessest thou art not able to match him at his Belinsgate Rhetorick , nor would'st thou with Jonah ●e as hot as the Sun that Scalds thee . Rep. Thou may'st well say indeed in one or two senses thou followest him , for I with all the hast thou mak'st , and the best Leggs of Reason thy Ridiculously short Reply to him stands and runs on ; thou neither reachest nor overtakest G. W. much less 〈◊〉 get before or go beyond him , but art found as far behind him , in the understanding of the misteries of the Gospell , the Spirit and the world ●o come , as the wild bruit Beast of the Forrest is behind the naturall m●n , in the knowledge of the things of nature and this world ▪ Poor vain man , thou wouldst be wise , and taking upon thee to teach those at whose feet'●would be thy wisdome much more to sit down and learn ; and so thou sayst to G. W. ● . 3 . seeing you do not understand I le teach you ● in a matter wherein any , but the blind , may see by thy Raw delivery of thy self in it , thou hast not half learnt thy lesson thy self , and wherein , as thou hast not a little need of it , so thou maist thy self possibly be taught a little otherwise by and by , in its proper place ; and thou are yet but as the wild Asses Colt Ranging in the Wilderness , snuffing up the Wind of thy own Wisdom ; yet there is a time werein thou must be taken , tamed and brought to beare , and made to see thy self to be as far short of G. W. as one in the fall is of him , that is risen again into the innocency . Thou followest G. W. & the Quakers , as the Egyptians did Israel , and as the Dragon doth the Woman Cloathed with the Sun , that beares the manchild Christ Iesus , breathing our malice , flinging out a stood of falshood , wherewith to cause her to be carryed away ; but thy Charriot Wheels drive on so heavily , that though thou persuest at the heels , yet thou wil● never reach further then the heel , which is all that the Serpents Head , which is to be bruised by her , avails to hurt , yea the very earth it self shall be made to help the woman , & to swallow up thy flood of Lies and Blasphemies , rather then they shall ere be of force for the fut●re , as they have been formerly , to overwhelm her . As for thy step by step , alas poor man G. W. makes such steps to his feet as are much too strict & streit for thine to tread and stand in ; where he is thou , in that nature and Wisdome thou yet abidest in , canst not come ; there 's a Gulf between ; whether he goes thou canst not follow him , unless thou loose thy life , as thou art loath to do , and dye with him , and Christ , and all Saints that death of the Cross to thy own Carnall will , which while in little better then that Woodden way , wherein the Papists prate of the Cross of Christ , thou in thy vain mind art prating about , thou knowest the power of not so much perhaps , as many , or at best little more as yet then the most of them ; so farr art thou from following G. W. who ( as Paul did ) followeth Christ , not in an outward , empty , Apish way of imitation , or setting himself to do what he reads or heares Christ did ( in which yet thou art farr short of following Christ too ) but acting , speaking , moving , living , worshipping , walking in , by , and from the same Light and Spirit as Christ did , which thou art ●o farr from walking by , that with I. O. and others , thou , for the letters sake , which yet thou errest from , rejectest it as no Rule for thee to walk by . And as for that very kind of following him step by step thou meanest , who talk'st , as if thou had'st traced thy Antagonist to a tittle , & left nothing of his book unanswered , thou hast rather an●wered little or nothing of it at all ; for as in thy second part to the same tune , there is fere nil dictum , quod non dictum prius , scarce ought said of that , which is set down , that is not in thy f●rst , and that is not already answered by G. W. so that T●y of a Sheet and half , under which thou seekest to shroud thy self from the force of his Reply , consists so much of References to thy Q● . folly ( the folly of which foolish peice is by it self , as well as by us manifested to all well meaning men ) that thou mightest as well have spared thy paines of putting out any thing under that name of a Book at all , and have said no more but so , viz. for a Reply to G. W. I referr the wo●ld to the book of mine which G. W. 's● Book is a Reply to ; insomuch that , for all thy pretended care to prevent it , every one that is truly a man will judge that like a Child , thou hast skipped what thou could'st not Read , so as to make any Reasonable Reply to . As for Billingsgate Rhetorick its more found among the Scribes that are Scolding , Scuffling , and Scrambling for such petty Businesses as Muscles and Cockels-shells , meer mouldring writings , Externall Texts , tritling Transcrips , Letters , pedl●ng points , Syllables , Triviall Tittles and Iota's , then●to the Qua. qui nucibus faciunt quaecunque relictis , who if they do earnestly contend , it is for more substantiall matters , the faith , that was once delivered to the Saints , the Light , Truth and Spirit it self , ye Priests despise , which were long before your letter , Text and Scripture ye , so scrabble for , was at all in being . And whereas thou sayest , , thou wouldest not ; I say , that whether thou wouldest or no , thou canst not be so hot as that light of the Sun which now scalds thee , and thy fellow - scolders about the Scriptures ; for the more ye foam , fret , fume , fight and labour in the fire of your own fury against it , the more the Sun of Righteousness arises daily , and shines out to the tormenting of you Inhabitants of the earth , that have , in the dark night of your Apostacy from the truth , slain , made merry over the witnesses of God , both within and without you : and the earth is filling more and more with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord , as the waters cover the Sea , and the Angels who have the Vials full of the wrath of God , are pouring forth of the same ; not onely upon the Earth , Sea , Fountains , and seat of the beast , and the River Euphrates , which hath been hitherto the chief fence of the great Whore● of Babylon , but also on the Sun it self ; so that men , and ye men called Ministers above all others , are to be scorched as with fire , by the great heat thereof , till ye rather kn●w your tongues for pain , and blaspheme the Name of God ( as ye now daily do ) who hath power over these plagues , then repent from your deeds to give him glory : and though all ye , impenitent brood of the Babylonish Harlot , band your selves together as it were with one mouth to blow out the light , yet is it to as little purpose as if ye should go about to forbid the morning light from appearing , when it begins to spread it self upon the mountains . T. D. thou sayest , That which Iob speaks of the Thief , Iob 24.17 . Is true of the Qua. If one know them they are in the terrours of the shadow of death . Rep. That 's false of us , but true of your selves ; there is one knows both you and us , before whom your faces will wax pale , and gather blackness ere long , while we stand with boldness in his presence , our hearts not condemning us of such wicked designs and deceits , as are found among your selves . T. D. That we endeavour to hide our meaning by doubtful words . Rep. I. O. Ex. 3. S. 17. Layes the same falsly to our charge ; but no wonder that thou T. D. accusest us of that , when as Christ himself cannot scape thy censure in that kind , for as thou blamest and belyest us here , as endeavouring to hide our meaning in doubtful words ; so pag. 7.1 . Pamp. thou sayest , It was an usual thing with Christ to speak words of a doubtful fense , and that his meaning may be mistaken , when his words a●e taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be if by ( every man ) we should understand him meaning , as he sayes , of every individual man indeed : how can we look thou shouldst clear us , who accusest him ? But if thou acquit him , cease from thy accusing us as guilty for that , which if 't were as surely , as 't is sure it is neither Christs nor ours at all , but your own common course , and evil guise , must needs ( as thou T. D. handlest the matter ) conclude Christ himself under the same guilt together with us ; but in truth , so far as * to peddle about the things of God , with words of an uncertain and doubtful signification , and when mens opinion is shameful and dishonest to dawb it over with deceitful covers and colours , not to speak it out ●penly & plainly , to mangonize it in speeches , sewed and patcht together on purpose , to darken their Councel by words without knowledge , to beware of nothing more then , least they should understand and be understood , so far as to hide their Councel by doubtful words , so far as to speak one thing and mean another , to make a shew in words , and intend no such matter as they make a shew of , so far as not to mean as men say , is a matter justly lyable to the censure of hypocrisie and dissimulation , we not onely clear God and Christ , and the Spirit , whom thou chargest as so doing ; while thou saist , p. 6. 1. Pamph. the the meaning of their words cannot be as the Letter doth report , it was usual with Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , p. 7. Salvation is offered or tendered by God to such as he never intends it to , &c. p. 40. 1. Pamph. But also are ourselves as clear from the guilt of it in the sight of God , as capable to make it good out of your own handy-works that your selves are the men , who are most deeply faulty in that particular . T. D. Thou sayest , Thou hopest the Reader will not be byassed by our seeming humility , sith pride may be the root that bears that branch ; voluntary humility is the effect of being puft up by a fleshly mind . Rep. True enough that pride bears the branch of meer seeming humility ; but among no men more then such as are used in Rime , as the Priest or Clark reads a line at once to them , to sing to the Tune of , O Lord I am not puft in mind , I have no scornful eye ; when yet , for all that profession of humility , they are puft up , more proud and haughty scorners , and dealing in more proud wrath against the Righteous , then such as never heard of such a thing as humility from a Letter without ( as many Heathens have not ) save what they have seen from the light of God and Christ within themselves ; and among them that , under the lowly titles of Ministers or Servants ; mount up into the Lordly titles of Masters , Reverend Sirs , &c. under the disguise of Servi Servorum-Dei , are indeed no less then Masters of all mis-rule , and Domini Dominorum Terrae . T. D. Thou tellest us ( alluding to a saying of the Bishop of Al●f , concerning the Protestants ) that if the Qua. have Orthodoxos mores , an Orthodox conversation , yet they have Haereticam fidem , an Heretrodox or Heretical belief . Rep. Herein thou shewest thy self to be as well as in other things one of the blind Grand Children of that blind Papistical Bishop , who can'st not discern how impossible it is that an Orthodox true , right or good Gospel conversation should proceed from an Heretical or false faith : Silly man , Does not true Faith purifie the heart , and life , work by that love which works no evil , give victory over the world with the lust thereof , & c ? And does any perfect purity of heart or life , any true love that works no ill , any victory over the world , any truly good manners , righteous works , holy actions , honest or godly conversation flow from an Heterodox , unsound , untrue , dead , Heretical , false faith ? Is not that a dead and unprofitable faith ( and such is yours , who deny any perfect purging from sin in this life ) which doth not avail to the purging of the heart and life ? Which overcomes not the world ? And is not all purity , and love , and victory over the worldly lust , &c. the necessary effect of a true Faith , and of that only and no other ? and can there possibly be a bad , false faith , where there are truly good works , and an holy life ? In thy yielding here that the Qua. have a right conversation , thou not onely givest thy self the lye in other places , where thou accusest them as wanting , not having so much as moral honesty ( as p. 11.2 . Pamp. and p. 5. of the Narrative ) but also ( to the proving thy own faith consequently to be false ) evincest the Qua. Faith to be true and not Heretical , for good manners and a righteous wel-ordered conversation cannot flow from a false , or from any but a true , living , justifying , Soul-saving Faith or Belief within ; aud if the Heretical faith ( for so ye will needs call the true one ) bring forth the right life , and the Orthodox ( for so ye will call your own fruitless one ) be seconded with , and shewed by a prophane conversation , then give me our Heretical , and take you your Orthodox belief unto your selves ; give me the Faith that purifies , works no ill , gives victory over sin , and is both proved and perfected by good works ; shew me T. D. thy faith without thy good works , I will shew thee my Faith by my works ; for where the life is right , the Faith cannot be amiss , and while the life is crooked , corrupt and rotten , the Faith is not pure , right nor sound : yet I know the Clergy will needs count the Qua. Faith Heretical , let their life be never so innocent , being themselves most in love with that Faith in Christ , if they could find it our once , that can allow and assure them of not onely Salvation from wrath , when they dye , but while they live also a vain conversation , and no little liberty to sin . T. D. Thou say'st G. W. layes the most innocent truths under the odious Imputation of Antichrists deceits . Rep. If those 20 of thy Antichristian deceitfull Doctrines with G. W. sees down , as thine , at the end of his Reply to thee , * are the most innocent truths with thee , that we may be delivered for ever from embracing those as Truths , shall be my earnest desire , and Prayer to God , for myself and all men , to whom I wish deliverance from darkness and deceit it self , and from del●●sion and damnation : for sure I am the contrary to those ( however own●● by thee , because of the blindness of thy heart ) are the most innocent soul-●●ving Truths of Christ. T. D. Thou tel'st thy Reader thou trustest he will be confirmed in his bad opinion of the Quakers . Rep. Here thou confessest thy opinion of the Qua which thou seekest in thy first book to beget men to , and in thy second to confirme them in , is a bad opinion : out of thy own mouth , from thy own pen art thou judged as no Minister of Christ but an evill doer ( oh thou improfitable Servant ) art thou sent of God ? are not all that are indeed sent of him ( as thou in word pretendest only to be ) sent to turn men from bad to good , and to confirm them in those good opinions ? yet behold T. D. Trusts that the people to whom he Ministers will being by his writings converted thereunto , be confirmed in their bad opinions of the Qua. Can more be done by any man in discovery of his own folly & nakedness ( not to say iniquity and wickedness ) to all men then is here by T. D. ? Was there ever the like seen ( save among such Ministers as are like to T. D. himself ) that a Minister should confess to all the world the end of his endeavours to be the converting of his Hearers and Readers to Bad , and the confirming them in their Bad opinions ? yet T. D. thus writes to his Reader ; I trust thou wilt be confirmed in thy bad opinion of the Qua. Herein T. D. thou justifiest the Qua. as no such Bad people as thou would'st Render them to be at other times , for if they were so indeed it were not a Bad but a Good , because not a false but a true , and iust opinion to think so Badly as thou speakest of them : but since thy own self stilest it a Bad opinion of the Qua. which thy care is to confirm men in , to think ill of them , it evinces them not to be such evil ones : for if men be bad indeed , it s a good opinion to deem them to be Bad , and to think of them as they are ; yea because the Devill is Bad , A Lyar , A deceiver , he gives the Devill but his due , and does well , speaks and thinks well , who has that good and true opinion , that he is a wicked Lyar and Deceiver , and who speaks and thinks no better of him then he is : But if it be a Bad opinion to think ill of a man , and to be of opinion that he is Bad and Naught , it must needs be that that man is Good , else 't were not Bad but Good and just to judge him Bad : the Goodness and Badness of every opinion , consisting in no other thing then in the truth and falshood of it respectively , and the Badness of a mans opinion about another man arising ever from the goodness or innocency of that other man lie thinks Badly of . Indeed were the Qua. such Bad men as thou belyest them to be , and had'st thou said I tr●st thou wilt be confirmed in thy opinion of the badness of the Qua. thou had'st then spoken according to what thou now evilly and falsly thinkest of them , and also the opinion , thou seekest to confirm men in about their Badness , would be as Good , and thy endeavours to confirm them in it as Good as ours are , who , because the Priests are generally vile and naught , do endeavour to bring people , who are beg●iled into the false and bad opinion of them , that they are good , and men of God , Ministers of Christ , and such like , when it s nothing less , to that good true and right opinion of them , that they are but Ministers of mens making , and men of Sin , and not of God. But ●●th the Qua. are ( excepting such as are so named for comming among them , who are no more of them , nor owned by them , then all they are Israel , that are called Israel ) an Innocent , Honest , True● , Iust , Righteous , Pure , Peaceable people , and thou say'st its a Bad Opinion of them to think of them as ill as thou would'st have men , in that ( as Caiphas the Priest of old , not of himself , but as he was ordered unawars to speak more truth of Christ then he himself was aware of ) thou hast said truly , and judg'd thy self as an unjust , and evill doer , in begetting in peoples minds Bad Opinions of Good men , and justified the Qua. as a generation of Iust Ones against thy will. T. D. Thou say'st thou shalt blow away the dust the Qua. raise with their Feet . Rep. Throwing Dust in the Aire , casting mists ▪ and thereby blinding men from seeing the Light and Gospell , that 's the work of Demetrius the Silver Smith , and his Companions , who by the craft of holding up false Worships had their wealth , and not of Paul , & the Qua. who are men of like occupation with him , these make no Trade of Preaching , much less of hiding the Gospell , as ye do , but seek to publish it freely , and what in them lyes to make it without charge . T. D. Thou shuttest up thy Epistles to thy Reader , with thy short Prayers to this purpose , that th●se men ( the Qua. ) may proceed no further , but that their folly may be manifested to all men , 2 Tim. 3.9 . And that we henceforth be no more Children , tossed too and fro with every wind of Doctrine , by the sleight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive , but speaking the Truth in love , may grow up into him in all things , which is the Head , even Christ , is the earnest Prayer of , Thy Servant for Iesus sake , T. D. That thou maist not know the depths of Satan as they speak , Rev. 2.24 . But maist hold fast that Doctrine which thou hast already , v. 25. is the Prayer of Thy Servant in the work of the Gospel , T. D. Rep. Thou art very full of these ejaculatory supplications , but thy ejaculations against the Qua. be ever too short to enter into the Eares of the Lord of Hosts , to obtain ought of that thou desirest : thou maist save thy breath , and keep thy Darts to thy self , they do but reflect back upon thee , dream what thou wilt in the darke , as to thy audience and acceptance , we know , as well as he who e eyes Christ opened heretofore , Ioh. 9.24 to 32. that God heares not sinners , much less such as thou art , who not only beleivest thou maist , but even must sin also while thou livest , and so regard'st iniquity as to plead against those as broaching of the Devils Doctrine , who plead a perfect purging and freedom from it in this world . Wert thou a Worshipper of God , and doer of his will ( which none doth while he sins , though thou dreamest men may be in a justified Estate while Committing of Adultery and Murder ) he would heare thee , for his spirit would then guide thee to aske according to his will , and such things only as are well pleasing in his sight , and to make intercession for his Saints , and not against them , as thou often dost ; and thou should'st know also as they do , that thou hast the things thou desirest of him , 1 Ioh. 5.14 , 15. but poore wretched man that thou art , it s now quite otherwise , thy sins lye at the doore , and shut out thy Cains Sacrifices from comming up as incense in the sight of God , so that thou fallest and loosest daily more and more for all thy Prayers : the Qua. both have and will proceed yet further , and by the Wisdome of God in them will both the Lyars & the Ly●ns mouths be stop't at la●● , and thine and thy fellows folly be manifested to all men , as that of old Iannes and Iamb●s was , who in their corrupt minds withstood and resisted M●ses and the Truth , 2 Tim. 3.9 . and while thy self , and all that heed the wind of thy Doctrine , unless ye take more heed to the light within , shall be henceforth , as ye have been hitherto , as Children tossed too and fro , and driven , like the Weathercock , which way so ere the wind blowes , and turned about ( as the Priest and his Parish ever hath been ) into what posture , mould , or mouldy Religion soever the times happen to settle in , the Qua. who are stated on that Corner Stone ye builders refuse , on the su●● 〈◊〉 , the R●●●●f ag●s , Christ the Light of the world , and Life of all that hear his Voyce , will stand upright , and not fall , nor be wi●d●d about any more by the ●light of the Shepheards , that have driven them from Mountain to Hill in the dark and gloomy day , nor catcht by the cunning Craftiness , whereby the Clergy lye in wait to deceive , but know ( not so as to own or approv● , yet so as to ● Sc●●n and disprove ) the depths of Satan ( as they speak ) and when thou and thine shall be forced to let go what ye have and hold● and hold forth for the Doctrine of God by tradition from men , the Qua. shall hold fast what Doctrine they have already learnt from God himself , and shall , not in that thy Complementall form of words , who ( as the old Servus Servorum D●i doth , when that he may be D●m●rus D●mi●orum is that he more desires ) subscribest thy self thy Servaut in the work of the Gospel for I●sus sake , while thou art indeed one of those Master Ministers that serve for filthy Lucres sake against both I●sus and his Gospel , but , denying your usurped Mastership , be made able Ministers of the Gospel or New Testament , not of your dead Letter , but of the Life and Spirit , and speaking the truth in Love , ( and not lies in Envy and Hypocrisie as ye do ) grow up into him in all things , even into his likeness , and the Image , measure , and Stature of the fullness of him , who is the Head , even Christ ; into whose likeness , though ye live like the Devill here , ye look to grow in the world to come only , and not before . Thus far as to thy petty pair of painted Prologues , and as ( really ) pite●s , as ( seemingly ) pious Apologies , or Epistolary Prefaces to thy two Paultry Pieces . CHAP. II. Now as to thy two more Notorious Narratives , whereby , as by the Epistles on the one , so thy two Butterflies are on the other side , as with so many wings born up and furnished to fly apace through the world , that is in love with lyes . I shall need to say the less to them , by how much some of the many lves that are laid down the●ein are already laid open to the view of all in his Reply thereunto , stiled the Devil ; 〈◊〉 i g●d by L.H. who together with my self and others by name , as well as all the people called Qua. are most Egregiously abused and belied therein . Nevertheless since thou art so impudently obstinate in that course of prating , printing out of lyes , as to this day rather to justifie thy self , then ( which would farr more become thee ) to judge thy self as an evill doer in so doing , that all such as have not devo●ed themselves to be deluded by thy deceitfull doings , rather then to know the truth concerning the Qua. in such matters , wherein thou as falsly as f●wly accusest them , may beware of beleiving thee any more , as many do , by implicit Faith ; I shall give the world a further tast of that Light , Treacherous and lying Spirit which speaks in thee , as it did in the false Prophets of old , who blinded the peoples eyes with their many mis-reports from receiving the truth the true Prophets told them , which lying Spirit proves them sufficiently in whom it is ( how ere they may stile themselves so , as thou T. D. dost ) to be no true Ministers of the Gospell . Report ( said the old lyars of Ieremie ) and we will Report it , raise but a lye , and wee 'l send it abroad farr and neer ; So T. D. fee p. 1. of his second Narrative , appeares to have certain Emissaries , and Earewigs , that go out and gather what unsavoury materiall's they can rake out of the Excrements of the Qua. and such dunghilly stuff , and lyes , and bad Constructions of good actions , &c : as are either made by himself , or made ready to his hand by his Agents , he layes by him , and trussing his tales together into two Tractacles or nasty Narratives , as Antickly Annexes them as Appendicular at the fagg-end of his other fancies ; Bagg and Baggage fit for nothing more indeed then to sollow in the Reare of such pittifull Polemicalls , as the two pieces are they are annexed to . T. D. Thou stil'st the materialls of thy two Narratives Remarkable passages and matters of undoubted Credit . Rep. Remarkable they are indeed , and so much the more by how much they are for the most part either apparently foolish , or flatly false , and where true ( as some few of them are ) either miserably mis-represented , wrested and perverted to wicked ends , or untruly used as premises , from whence to inferr thy most abominably false Conclusions , and to confirm other men in bad opinions of the Qua , whereupon for the truths sake , which thouseekest thereby to bring into contempt , I shall here Remarke the most Remarkable of them : and the rather first because in thy second title page thou so malepertly Challengest any to disprove thee in the words of Iob , saying if it be not so now , who will make me a Lyar , and make my speech nothing worth . 2. Because even in this very 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or nick of time , wherein my Enervation , or discovery of the Nakedness of thy two Narratives is but now newly come under my hand and pen , in order to its passage through the press , whereat I write this , I am presented with a third printed Toy of thine T.D. to the same Tone , stiled the Lye Returned to Luke H●ward , or a Vindication of Thomas Danson Minister of Sand●i●h , from the Imputation of belying the Quakers , wherein thou sayst L. H. in his , called the Devils Bow unstringed , is impudent in denying severall matters of fact charg'd upon himself , and others of his perswasion , in thy two Naratives , and in representing thee the Publisher thereof as a Forger of Lyes : in which shuffling Trifle , or sorry shift of halfe a sheet ( for 't is nor more , nor better ) of ( meer wast ) paper , as closely as thou conceivest thou hast lapt and laid thy self up as in a bed of Lavender , and in thy Vipe●ous hissings , and Lyings against the Light Lyest hid ( velut Anguis in herba ) among such silly Seers as See with thy eyes , yet thy new Bed of Lyes is too short for thee to Lye long at ease upon , and that half sheet of thine is a covering too narrow for thee to wrap thy self in from the wrath of God , as well as too ragged , and tottered , and torn , and thin ( if 't were a whole one ) to shelter thy shame from the sight of such as see by the Light of Christ , who view thee in all thy venomous ventings of thy malice through the thickest Vail thou seekest to shrowd thy self under : nor will thy certificates obtained , & procured by thy self & published under the hands of thy pair of ( Iohns ) viz. Io. Laigneile , and Io. Davis of Dover , one of which I love so well as to tell him that if ( as the Proverb is ) he play not Iack on both sides 't will be the better for him ; nor of thy pair of Unminister like , Mr. Williams , Russel● and Wingfield , who will never Win the Field with lyes against the Children of the Truth ; nor oft' other Thomas , viz. thy part-Taker T●omas Morris , who is as very an Infidell toward Christ Disciples , till he see and feel our Testimonies to be undeniably true , as thy self , and all the three other Thomasses , that are so ready to sweare , what ere thou sayst ; nor the self contradicting Testimony of thy Trustee Mr. Vinter Minister of Couewold ; nor any other of thy despicable disproofs so moderate the matter , but that thou wilt appear to be a Foster-Father to those Forgers of Lyes , who have brought thee into the praemunire of publishing , to thy own shame , what their heads have hatched , and their pates prepared for thy pen , and put upon thee to p●int and publsh in thy folly to all the world , as will by and by appear in the examination of each of thy Lyes , as thy Lye laid down in thy last Narrative . T. D. As to thy Tale of L. Hs. Sending his Horse and Man for me to be a● a d●scou●se appointed between him and W. Russell a Priest , and that his man was seen to come out of Dover on his Horse overnight , and myself s●●n to Ride into the Town the next morning upon the same Horse ; which story thou tellest for truth , with such Confidence too , that besides that forementioned common Epethite thou givest to all thy lyes , viz : they are of undoubted Credit , thou here addest that it was manifest I was se●t for on purpose , and that in denying it we Ly● and have not so much morall honesty as to speak Truth in matters of Fact , and such like . Rep. I here as L. H. hath also done , declare against that manifold piece of Na●ra●ive so P●mpu●ly predicated , as a most A●rand manifest Lye in every inch of it , as having no truth in it from the Head to the T●yl , that I can find , f●om one end thereof even to the other ; for neither did L. H. send his Horse or Man at all for me o're night ; nor did I ●ide into D●ver on L. Hs. Horse next morning , but on a Black H●●se , plain enough ( if these Lya●s had not been blind ) to be di●cerned from L. Hs. White one , and that in the afternoon too ; neither was the discourse between , or appointed between L. H. and W. R. but E. B. and W. R. nor did E.B. send for me , but a letter to me only , not knowing of my comming , but desiring my answer only ; neither did I know at all that any discour●e at all was to be till I came into the Town ; nor was there such a word spoken by L. H. ( in my hea●ing ) that he would now leave the discourse to me ; nor did L. H. so much as by desire engage me in that di●course ( though some few things I said in it ) any more then he engaged me to come to those disputes at Sandwich , which ( saving thy lyes in that particular ore and ore againe repeated ) was just no way at all , though hearing of a dispute to be there , I was there with other friends : By all which Remarkable Passages , whether thou hast not marked out thy self , and thy Tal●-bearers more then the Qua. to be men that have not somuch morall honesty or to speak truth in matters of fact , let all true men Iudge ; nor is all that in thy last half sheet of any Validity to disprove this , which I say and averr to be the truth as in the sight of God , who will Judge between you Lya●● and us , who as little Con●cience as thou sayst we make of Lying , have herein said the very Truth , and shall be beleived against thy Tattle , notwithstanding the sleeveless Testimonyes of W●lliam Russell and Th●mas Morris , whose Certificate , which thou ●ettest to put an end to the contest , conclude nothing to the contradicting of what 's here said by me . And thus into the pit of thy own digging for us art thou fallen thy self , and in the same Labo i●uh of lyes , wherein he lay turking for the Innocent , hath the Lyar lost , and left him elf not a little in the Lurch . T. D. Thou tellest a Tale that a dying Qua. at Dover , said , He exp●cted Salvation onely by his good works , and not from Christ : in witness of which thou bringest Io. Davis Minister of Dover . Rep. Thou hadst abused Io. Davis , as grosly as thou dost thy self ( but that I see by his Vnderhand Testimony inserted in thy half sheet , and his non-complaining of thee , he is willing enough to be so abused by thee , and so I am the less willing to vindicate him , sith volenti non fi● i●i●●ia ) by offering in thy Narrative to Summon him in Print , as a witness of that , which he himself had no otherwise than by hear-say from another ; for hereby thou expo●est I. Da. together with thy self , to the iust censure of Ignoramus , whilst it s well known to all ( save such as either are , or else , in enmity to the Truth , are free to be counted Idiots ) that as in f●o Dei & verae Ecclesiae , he is no true Minister , or Witness of the Word of God , who stealing his Testimony , and the words he speaks out of the writings of the true Prophets , declares what himself never saw , felt , nor handled of the word of life , so vel in foro hominum , even before men in their earthly Courts of Iudicature , that man would be deservedly cast forth with shame , as no lawfull Witness against a living man there p●esent , much less against a dead man not capable to speak for himself , who should testifie it as an undoubted truth that he spake Treason , and from thence accuse all that mans Kindred also to be Traytors , and yet confess he was no Ea●ewitness of his words , but only heard a Third man say somewhat to such a purpose : And how Iohn Davis can be such a competent witness to the world of the words spoken by the dying Quaker , as thou set'st him down for , or any more then a presumptuous Intruder into , or Talker of what he hath not heard , but only heard of , my eyes , which are not so dim , but that I can Divine the Divines to be in the dark , & to Divine lyes to each other , do not fee ; howbeit let every one see not with my eyes , but with his own , as to the case in hand . But I. D , when he was backbiting the Qua. to thee in that Tale , and tickling , and scratching thy Itching ears , which ( as false tongues do ) love lying words , and feed on meer Fables more then truth , thought ( perhaps ) as little as thou did'st of the likeliness of the Quakers Printing , to be brought so openly on the Stage about it , as now he is , and that with so much the more shame , by how much he seemes to have play'd B●-peep between both partyes , and by that his second hand Testimony to have ●erved two contrary turns at once , viz. L. Hs. and thine too ; or else its like he would have kept his hea● say to himself ; but now he is justly left of the Lord to manifest himself to be one , that would fain seem to hold with the Hare , though he runs with the H●und open mouth at her to devoure her , having ( since he seemed to side with L. H. against thee ) in his last testimony obtained by thee , and obtruded upon the world , made himself obvious to the view , of all to be a Sidesman with thee in thy viperous spirit against us , and one who would ( Balaam-like ) Divine us into the denomination of Papists , if he could tell how ; but as such Concurr●rs as shew their teeth much ; Seldome bite very deep , so 't is now ; the curst Cow's have short Hornes , and your uncertain Certificate can stand but for a Cypher at most , that signifies nothing , but that ye would ●ay something in disparagement of the Qua. if ye could tell what . Something it seems was affirmed by some body , yea by the Qua. Brother , who ( as their own-Brethren usually do , Isa. 66. for Christs name sake ) . hated tho●e that hear Gods word , and tremble at it , and are therefore in scorn called Qua. to such an effect , as if the dying Qua. had said he look'd for Sa●vation by his own works , and not by Christ ; wherein , if he doth not ( as many in D●ve● and Sandwich have done as bad ) pu●posely bely his Decreased Brother for the sake of his own malice to the Qua. yet I know he did ( at best ) as much mistake him , as T. D. mistakes , & either blindly or maliciously mis epr●sents me to the world as a looker for Iustification without Christ by my own works , which I have long since denyed as dung for those that Christ works in me ; for howbeit I shall not here meddle point blank to prove a Negative ; yet thus much I can say in disproof of your hasty Affirma●ve ; I my self , who know his principles to have been no other then to expect Salvation by Christs works in him only , and not his own , was with that said dying Qua. in the time of that sickness , whereof he died , and in as deep d●scourse with him ( I believe ) as that his meer fleshly Brother was , who hath so abused him ; yet I heard him utter as nothing at all to that effect , so not a little to the contrary : and so I leave this your Tale of a Tub ( as I found it ) with the Bottom out , to take place in such hearts as are given ore to strong delusion to beleive your lyes that they may be damned , for no entertainment will it find among such as receive the ●●ve of the Truth that they may be saved : yea , as thou sayst , in p. 3. of thy half shee● , of that figment of your own , viz. that I was sent for t● Dover by L.H. to the dispute with W. Russell , That I came on other business will hardly be beleived on the word of a Qua. & : so say I in thy own words of both this , and that non entity of your own Creating , and of William Wingfields m●srep●●sentation of L. Hs. words also , viz. that those words were spoken by L.H. as W.W. sayes ( confdering the three Testimonies that his words were otherwise ) and those also by the dying Qua. as thou ●et'st them down , upon the best evidence thou giv'st of it , from either the Qua. fleshly Brother , or thy Spirituall Brother I. D. will hardly be beleived upon the word of such an envious Quareller with the Qua. as thou art , by them that know how little Conscience that sort of men ( among whom thou art not the least ) make of lying against them , and against the truth . T. D. Another story thou tellest of a Qua. that came into the Savoy Church and made such a dreadfull noyse , as seemed to be of the Devill in him , and so sadly afrighted the people , that some ran one way , some another to secure themselves from the danger they apprehended was near them , and necessitated the Minister then Preaching , whom thou callest Mr. Hook to hold his peace as Witnesses , of which the said Mr. and Mrs. Hook are cited . Rep. A palpable evidence ( if the Devill had been in him as truly as ye suppose it ) how little of God is in your Christian Congregations , and in your Churches and Ministers , that the Devils bellowing out of the mouth of one unarmed man could make the Minister hold his peace , and affright and put to flight his whole Church before his face : Who so hearkens unto Christ dwells safely , and is quiet from feare of evill ; he is not afraid of evil tidings , his heart is fixed trusting in the Lord ; he is kept in perfect peace , his mind is sta●d on the Lord ; he keepeth himself that the wicked one toucheth him not ; he resisteth the Devil , and makes him flee , and gives not place to the evill one : but a token rather it is that the Power of God was of a truth , in the man , who ere he was , in that the D●vils trembled in the wicked , whom he possesses , & were so astonished at his presence , for hic murus Abaeneus — nil conscire sibi nullapallescere culpa ; as this is the Brazen Bulwark , and impregnable fort that true Saints have such Rejoycing in , as all the Devills in Hell cannot impeach , the Testimony of their Conscience , that in simplicity and Godly sincerity they have their Conversation toward God and all men , so the Sinners in Sion are afraid , and fearfulnes● surprises the Hypocrites , and being conscious to themselves , that no good belongs to them , they wax pale at the sence of their own iniquities , as if the Devill were comming to fetch his own ; the name of the Lord is a Terrour to them , a dreadfull sound of danger is alwayes in their ea●es , and they are Magor-Misabib fear round about , and a terrour eternally to themselves , so that they are in great fear where no feare is , as to any outward appearance , or occasion of it , much more when the Lord himself begins to roare out against them , and thunder upon them out of Sion , who●e ●o●ce is as terrible among the Sinners , as the Devills is contemptible among the Saints , yea their own evills per●uing the wicked , they flee some●imes when no man persues , but God being in the midst of the Congregation of the R●ghteous , they are ever as bold as a Lyn. T. D. Thou tellest of a woman , one Mary Todde a Qua. that at the Bull and Mouth , while her friends were speaking , pulled up all her cloaths above her middle exposing her Nakedness to the view of all in the Room . Rep. I see if thou canst not get it by Hook , thou wilt get it by Crook , if thou canst , but thou gettest nothing against us by either ; for as the Tale that is testified by thy Master and Mistriss 〈◊〉 makes as little against us to thy purpose , were it as perfectly true , as it s probably false in some part of it at least ( for I cannot learn that there is at Lord. such a one as Wil● : 〈◊〉 ▪ that is owned as a friend among the Qua. ) So this 〈…〉 thou 〈◊〉 the Qua. in above , was done by one that was a Rom●● ( and not a Qua. ) whose R●nting abominable practi●es the Qua. whom thou callest her friends , are more at e●mity with then thy self ; nor will thy 〈◊〉 in the Margin thy Eye-witness T. Cresset ( C●●rurgion ) Cure and S●●v● thee from the ●ust censure of a false Accuser of the Qua. to whose score thou w●●nes● down all the Rudeness , that by the Rabble of their and the Truths enemies is , in absolute hatred of both them and it , acted ever and 〈◊〉 in their Assemblies . And albeit thou ●●innest over this thy 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 business in thy last 〈◊〉 piece of work of half a 〈◊〉 , by the Certificate of Iohn 〈◊〉 , as thou didst bolster it up before by Th. Cressets Testimony in thy Narrative , which I. Lag● ( as far as his envious assertion will assure ) assures thee , who very con●●dently ●akest on thee to assure the world thereupon , that the Quak. at Lond. acknowledge the said M. 〈◊〉 to be one owned and 〈◊〉 by them , I here contrariwise affirm ( whatsoever some certain Qua. that under that name shrowding themselves to do mischief to the truth , as the false brethren did of old , by whom Paul was in peril , might say to I. L. ) that the Qua. in London do disown and deny both M. T. and her ill carriage in that particular : so that instead of mending thy ill matter , thou hast but made it worse , and redoubled the lye , thou wouldst have lickt the lyars whole of . T. D. Thou tellest of a Qua. that at Alderman-Bury , on a Lords day , while the Psalm was singing , gat up into the Pulpit with his Hat on his head , and serting his breech upon the Cushion , fell to sewing . Rep. A great piece of business , for a man to be so sharply censured for as he was who did that . Our Princes and Priests in these dayes have forgot that the Lords Prophets of old were moved to do as strange matters as that , or any other thing that is done in the Spirits motion in these dayes by the Qua. as a sign to a wicked and adulterous generation , when the Lord , being wearied with the multitude of their sins , began once to loath their most solemn sacrifices , and to defile all the coverings of their Idols , and to slain the pride of all their fleshly performances , and to 〈◊〉 no pleasure on their best observations and oblation●s , and to snuff at their sacred services as at a stinking smeak coming up into his nose , and to turn the songs of their Temples into howlings , and to cause children to oppress them , and very women to rule over them , and to stir up the babes and the base ones , to behave thems●lves boldly against the honourable and antient , and to cut off both the head and the tail of a people , even the antient and honourable Rulers , which are the head , and the Prophet that teacheth lies , which is the tail , and to spread●dung upon their faces ( and that 's more than a mans breech upon a Pulpit Pillow ) even the dung of their s●lemn meetings , and to sweep both one and t'other away together , and ( in short ) to throw no less then shameful spuing upon all their glory . Doth this offend you , that the servants of the Lord are now made signs so far as to sit covered in your Mass-houses , in reproof of your singing Davids Psalm with S●uls spirit , in such Meeter as I. H.T.S. Q. Elizabeths Fidlers have moulded them into , and in ●uch manner as some Priest , Clark or Sexton sayes them lineatim , by a line at a time before you , O Lord I am not puft in mind , I have no scornful●ye , all ●he night lo●g wash I my Bed , and much more to the same Tune ; wherein most of your people mock God , and sing more lyes to him than t●uths , whilest they are as hough●y and sc●r●ful as ere they can look , and o far from making their Beds swim , and their eyes gush out with tears for sin , that they rather are both full of daily Adulteries , and defiled with nocturnal uncessant uncleannesses and pollutions ? Does this offend you , that a man should sit and few upon a Cushion , in rebuke of you● sottish igno●ance , who limit the Lords day ( which is an everlasting holy Sabbath or ce●ation from all mans own words , works , thoughts and pleasures , typi●ed by the seventh day , which ye now confe●s is no more holy than another ) within the narrow lists of one day of the seven , and not the seventh neither , which God instituted for a time , but the first onely , as if ye were then onely , and on the fasts of your own appointment for a day bound to serve God in some certain outward shewes , and then at liberty to serve lust , self , flesh , sin and the Devil all the week beside ? Doth this offend you , that as an Ecce signum , any true Prophets Tayl should come neer the s●ft Cushion , over which the Prophets that teach lyes who are the Tail , lean and lye , talk for money , and do their business in order to the getting in of their gain from their quarters , and follow their calling twice o● thrice a week , and work upon their T●ade , which ( unless they would come freely to give what freely they have received , and speak more truth than they do ) is not half so honest as that of a Taylour sewing of a garment ? Do these small matters ( which yet as despicable as they are in your own eyes , are of more moment to you than ye are aware of ) offend and occasion you to stumble ? ( O ye Priests ) what if ye should ●ee men made to go naked , and sit naked upon your Plush-Pulpit-Cushion ? and annoy them with very Dung before you , for a Sign to a seemingly Saint-like seed of Serpents , whose own righteou●ne●s , which they count gain , is as very dung in the sight of God ? such a one would be a greater stumbling-stone in thy eyes T.D. and of thy offended fellows ; yea , behold ye despisers , and wonder , and perish , such works and strange acts as these is the Lord working in your dayes , the mystery of which ye can in ●●wise believe , though ever and anon done in the sight of 100ds ; yea , how have many been pressed in Spirit to pass naked into your Mass-houses , and streets in Cities and Towns , and to do what ye deem defilement , as signs from the Lord , to shew the nakedness and stark-stinking shamelesness of this most impiously impudent and impenitent generation of professing Priests and People , who are apparently as rich● , Landic●a her●self in letter , and increased with goods , and needing nothing of Christs own councel & light in their own consciences , not knowing th●mselves to be poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind and naked : And yet all this and much more no more than was done at the Lords command of old by the Prophet , which was a fool , and the spiritual man , that was mad , in the eyes of the blind Priesthood of that age , wherein he lived ; witness Isaiah , who went naked and bare-foot three years , for a sign and wonder to Egypt and Aethiopia , Isa. 20. And Ieremy , who brake a Bottle in Tophet , in token that the Lord would make Iudah as Tophet , Jer. 19. 1 , 10 , 12. and put bands and yoaks on his own neck , and sent yoaks to several Kings , as a sign of the slavery they should come into , Jer. 27. And Ezekiel , who was dumb , and bid to eat and drink with quaking and trembling , to mingle his Bread with Mans Dung , and made to mingle it with Cow Dung in the sight of Israel , as a sign of that defiled polluted bread they should eat among the Gentiles , and to burn a third part of his Hair , and smite a third part of it with a Knife , and scatter a third part of it with the Wind , and bind a small part of it in his skirts , to shew the famine , sword and dispersion of Israel , and salvation onely of a few , Ezek. 3 , c. 4. c. 5. and dig a hole in his house , and remove his stuff in their sight , Eze. 12. And Hosea , that was bid to love an Adulteress , and a Harlot . T. D. Another example ( as thou callest it ) as Remarkable as this , Thou sayest was in Christ-Church , Octob. 6. 1659. where on a Day of publique Thanks-giving the Parliament , L. Major , Aldermen , Common Councel , and Officers of the Army being met together to hear Dr. Homes & Mr. Caryl , appointed by the Parliament to preach before them ; two Qua. made a great disturbance in the very presence of Authority . Rep. By the humane Autho●ity ( it seems ) of the Parliament themselves two Ministers , of mans making , were appointed to preach before them , and by the Divine Authority and Power of God himself , two of his sending were appointed and pressed in Spirit , to bespeak them in his Name to another purpose then that of those of their own chusing ; for whereas they had chosen to themselves such as should Prophecy to them not Truth , nor right things , but deceits , and such smooth things , as were pleasing and suitable to their dainty Dreams , thanksgiving-thoughts , sweet sacred solemnities , fained festivities , vainly hoped , self-promised unities of that joyful day , the Lord had chosen Seers , who saw beyond all this , and divined a storm through all the●e their Idol-coverings draw near upon them : but to these Seers and Prophets they said ( as the same Seed did to the same sort of Seers , whom God sent of old to a Rebellious people , lying children that would not hearken to the Law of the Lord ) See not , Prophecy not ; Soft and Gentle , and not Right and Rough things are agreeable to to the duty of this day : the Qua. speech , the words whereof I have set down in the Margin , * referring both thee T.D. and the Sandwich doters on thy dowby-doings , to a Printed sheet ●old by Tho. Simmons , at the Bull and Mouth , stiled , the Prophet approved by the words of his Prophecy coming to ●ass , where ye may read the residue of the Message from the Lord , in that place of the Popish Priests consecrating , falsly called Christ-Church in London on that day , was deemed such a disturbance as was punisht with an orderless New-Gate imprisonment by the multitude at the present , & ratified by the Rulers order , when they were more at leasure from their voluptuous feasting ; which iniquity of appointing men to preach to them in their own wills and time , whether God appoint them , yea or nay , of despising the true Prophets true Words , and trusting in the fraud of the fulse ones , and in their own perversness and staying thereon , Isa. 30.9 , 10 , 15. was then unto them , as it ever was to the same generation , as a breach swelling out in a high wall , whose breaking came suddenly as at an instant ; for by the 13th of the same month they , who were so hand in hand against Righteousness , were turned tail to tail against each other for their wickedness ; yea , the Lord spared them not , but brake them as the breaking of a Potters vessel that is broken in pieces ; so that in the bursting of those brittle Potsheards of the earth , there is scarce found a sheard of so much u●e as to take fire from the hearth , ' or water withal from the pit . Now as to the very great distu●bance thou sayest they made , this is but the old Tone of the Tithe-taking , Tide-turning , Tune-serving , Truth-belying Teachers , and the wonted out-cry of that Noun-Adjective Ministry thou belongest to , that cannot stand , nor subsist of themselves , without leaning for encouragement , defence , assistance and maintenance to mee● humane Laws , to prop them up in the propagating of their meer humane Gospel ; who , like the loud-lying women , that having no better shift than to cry whore first , are ever hideously bellowing out against the Qua. to the tune of Heresie , Heresie , disturbance of the Ministers , to the Magistrates ; so that if any Qua. come quietly in , and speak , or do but ask that Reason , which every Christian is bound to be ready to give of his hope to every one that asketh him in meekness and feare , they strait call out to have them Punisht , as the Iews neither did , Act. 13. nor do at this day ; which said Ministers being in propriis Talpae , in alien is linces , are more sharp-fighted towards the good behaviour of one Qua. quietly questioning with them , or saying any thing to them soberly that is of God , then the misdemeanour and tumultuousness of twenty of their own unquiet Spirits , stirred up by the Devill to call us R●gues-Faces , Quaking Doggs , to break Windows , and bring in D●ggs to fight , and such like beastly and Bear-like behaviour in our solemn Assemblies , till they are wearied with their own Pains towards us , and our Patience towards them under it , as well while we are speaking , as we are moved of the Lord , in our own allowed meetings , as in theirs : witness their leading a Bear through the place , where the Qua. were Preaching publickly at Hith : and also the rudeness of some of those that are under thy own Tuition T.D. at Sandwich , and belonging to the Flock thou there feedest , or rather feedest on ; who when G. F. E. B. my self and many others were publickly met in quiet in a place of our friends procuring , shrew Stones and Gunpowder squibs that fired among us , not so as to move us to cry out to the Rulers of Disturbance , yet so as to give good occasion to the Lord to permit ( though ye forget it ) a sad fire to fall out within the Town , no longer after , then the next morning . Thus ye men of Sin make men of God offenders for a word , and hate them , as of old they did , that reprove sin within the Gate ; so that when any such stirrs arise upon occasion of the Gospels preaching , as did in the Prophets and Apostles days , which the Lords Messengers now are no more accessary to , as causes , then they then were , it s still laid to the doore , and put on the score of Truth , and the Tellers of it , which , because none else will own it , must hear it , till against the foul mouth'd Beast the Lambs innocency be cleared as the light , which till then may truly say of all mischief that falls out , where he utters his voyce , Cum nemini obtrudi potest itur ad me : The Lambs cau●e is better then the Wolfs , when charg'd by him for troubling the water with only drinking at the Fountain , but the Wolfs Teeth are sharper then his , and therefore the Innocent must be devoured . And whereas to such like tales as thou hast told , as abovesaid , thou prefixest the conclusion thou inferrest in these words , viz. T. D. What affronts these wretches offer to the Worship of God is notoriously known . Rep. I ●ay your Parish Worship is not so truly the Worship of God , as 't is true that ye so call it ; but that of the Qua. who Worship him in Spirit and Truth in the inner parts , which ye are out of , which those poor Wretches your Parish people are , by your lyes , instigated to offer such abominable affronts to , as Bea●ings , Buffetings of men in , and draggings of them o● their own meetings ( as are notoriously known all the Land over ) is the true Worship of God indeed , which ( except ye repent in time O ye Priests and Parish-people , and own the truth ) 't were better for you and them that ye had never been born , then offer such affronts to , as ye do : but full well may ye offer affronts to our Worship when ye stick not to do the like to your own Rule of all worship , even to that ye call the Word of God , for if the Scripture , which is a true writing of it , were as truly the Word of God , as ye say it is , ye bawlk not , as occasion is , to do despite to that , witness the ungodly guise of those Giddy Heads about Westminster , who when by G. F. holding out the Bible to them , they were askt in the mid'st of their mad hurlings of Mud and Kennell dirt ( as they mostly do upon the Qua. in their meeting there ) to this purpo●e , whether they would do such despite unto the Scripture , which they say is their Rule and the Word of God ? ceased not to be dirt that their Word of God , any more then they did from dirting him , who held it out to thorn . T.D. Another of thy Remarkable passages , in the first Narrative , is of one of our friends , who by a meer mistake , charged one of your Ministers , Peter Domsell , who was cleare , instead of another , who was guilty of it , as slandering me falsely with taking pay from the Pope . Rep. Which mistake of one man for another , though confessed freely and publickly by our friend ( which is more then for your many flat lyes against us , we can expect ever to extract from you ) and thereupon ( with much ado ) professed by you all fit to be never more mentioned to him , yet is not only reckon'd up by thee in print , p. 56.57 . to the shaming of him , if thou could'st , but also to thy own shame of a single slip ●gregiously multiylyed by thy lies about it , into severall unsingle ●ordid shifts , and double dealings which thou falsly fatherest , and fainedly fast'nest on him and me too . T.D. First thou say'st he pretended to say that he said ( from the Lord ) as one immediately sent of him so to speak , and yet was mistaken as to the right man : whereupon thou concludest the Qua. as far from infallability in Doctrine , as in matter of fact . Rep. Which is but a silly conclusion of thine , if it had so been , and contrary to thy own principles ; for if Christ knew not Iudas to be a Devil , and so cho●e him for his Minister upon that mistake , as thou ( little less then Bla●phemously ( intimatest p. 36. for in truth Iudas was no Devil when Christ chose him , and yet Christ was infallible in Doctrine , though ( Secundum te , who ignorantly so fanciest ) ignorant in that fact , why may not a mistake in a matter of fact stand now with infallibility in Doctrine ? T.D. Thou sayst I holp him with a ly● , saying he said not ( from the Lord ) but ( in the feare of the Lord ) so that the people then Houted at me . Rep. For all the then 〈◊〉 , and the still stout standing of thy Rout of rude ones to the contrary , I still say the same ( viz ) that he ●aid not in thy pretended phrases of ( from the Lord ) or ( as imm●d●ately sent of him ) but ( in the feare of the Lord ) which may be consistent with the mistake of one Person for another , or else tell me T.D. ( for ad hominem I now urge ) how Isaac mistook Iacob for Esau , and Paul wot not that was the High Priest , when he term'd him a whited Wall ? Yet what a stirr , what a ditty , what a deale of Do mak'st thou in aggravating that diminitive business , till , by the rash Rendition of it , thou Render thy self as Ridiculous , as P. D●msell himself , whom it most concern'd , then did , who ( like one that to kill a Gnat , which makes his Nose Itch , strikes so hard as to make it bleed ) was so over obstreperous and frivolously fervent in his own defence from the offence of that Fly ( and more would have been , if for sham● ye had not stopt him ) that he offended himself more otherwise , by stirring up thy light-spirited people to Laugh more at that folly , which then fell from himself , then to Lament the innocent injury , which befell him as from us . T.D. Thou sayst , that the Reader may see how great a stress we lay upon small matters , thou wilt tell him a true story ( which perhaps may move his Laughter ) that a Kinsman of D G. offering to salute her , she went two or three steps back with these words . I have renounced the Devill and the flesh long since , prethee , forbear that custome of the world : and that these things thou thought'st good to add ( at the desire of some worthy persons ) that the world may take notice not only of the wickedness , but of the absu●dity of these peoples ( the Qua. ) principles . Rep. This last part of thy first Narrative is not a more true , then strange story , & as Ridiculously Related , as it is a Ridiculous Relation : What if thy Kinswoman D. G. refused thy offer to salute her at thy hou●e , because she could not conscientiously close with thee * in the Carnall course of that Customary Complement , which in the world it self weares out now too , and begins to Savour ( ●o far is it from the Christian ) plus Coloni , quam Aulici , more of the Clown , then of the Courtier ? must thou needs be so obstreperous in Print against her for it ? Thou dost it to shew how great a stress we lay on small matters , but thou shew'st indeed how great a stress thou lay'st upon the small matters , and how bad a Construction thou puttest upon the good intentions of thy own Kinsfolks , when they are ( as thou Ironically Term'st it p. 56. ) of that perswasion of Quakerisme : Thou dost it to move thy Reader to Laughter at her and our Wickedness and Absurdity , but if he be one whose heart is not among the Wise in the House of Mourning , but among the Fools in the House of Mirth , he will , with Laughter thereat , take much more notice of thy own . Thou thoughtest good ( though thy thoughts in it were not good ) at the desire of some worthy friends to do it ; A worthy peice of business indeed , like thy self , and tho●e worthy persons , who desired thee so to do , to add at the end of thy Renowned Narrative of Remarkables , as it were to Pin the Basket to bring up the Reare , and , as some weighty substantiall matter , to adde weight to the rest of that Windy , Frothy , Husky , Chaffy stuff , and matter of Story , with which thy Book is abundantly Stored . Had'st thou been wise , thou might'st have learnt of thy Kinswoman to do the same that was undertaken for thee long since ( viz. ) to forsake the Devill and all his Works , the Vain Pomp ; and Glories of the world , so as no more to follow , nor be led by them ; but now in this thy Printed Publication , and so Iack-Pudding-like a Passage at the very Tayl of all thy merry matters and lying Tales of the Qua. to move thy lewd , more Risible , then R●asonable Animals to Laughter at them , thou hast rather vented thy own vanity to the advantage of the truth , thou treatest against , then disparag'd it , having acted herein much below that Gentility , Civility , Courtesie , Common humanity and ingenuity , that becomes one that calls himself a Kinsman , and would be counted more then a common Christian , by not so much finding a great fault where there is none at all , as a wrong rendring of that to the Reader , as some gross v●ll in D. G. which he , to whom Christs Cross is not yet a Riddle , will Read to be as great a good , as thou mak'st a gross evill of it . Of so slender Credit is Truth among its foes , that if the least fault be among its freinds , it shall be sooner found , then find forgiveness on Confession ; if it be but a weakness , or mistake of one man for another by night , it s magnified into some impardonable wickedness , or mighty mischief ; if it be but a Mole hill , that every wise man would step over , and none but blind Guides , and their Giddy guided ones , who strein at the Saints Gnats , and swallow their own Camells , can well stumble at , it s made a Mountain , which they cant see over ; if but a Mot it s sooner seen in a Brothers ey , then a Beame by them in their own ; if it be but some pittifull passage not fit to be Printed , a Narrative must be made of it , as of some Remarkable Passage , that can't be omitted ; if but as Ridiculous a thing to Relate as Serious in it self , it must be related to move Fools to Laugh at it ; but Wise men will Laugh most at its Relator . T.D. As to thy Conclusion of thy second Narrative , which is a desire of thy Reader to peruse the Qua. Answer to the Questions thereto annexed , which were proposed to , and Answered by Ioseph Fuce , whereto thou settest both his name , and answers to them . Rep. I say thus much to thee , that howbeit thou hast set down so much of I. Fs. return , as neither thy silly self nor Io. Corbet the Priest ( who put forth the Queries , and was accordingly answered above two years ago by Io. F. ) will ever be able to render any Reasonable Reply to , ( for if ye could have refuted them , the Press was as open for your Reply to them , as your bare Narration of them ) and so much as will stand over your heads for ever , as a Testimony of the Duncicall Darkness , and Groa●able Blindness of you both in the Misteries of the Gospell , of which , for silthy lucres sake , ye do but fancy your selves to be the Ministers ; yet either one , or both of you two V pers have done the best , or rather the worst ye could to abuse both Io. F. and the Qua. and the truth by that Cut-short , Counterfeit Account , thou T.D. givest the world of those Queries and Answers , that passed between Priest Corbet and Ioseph Fuce . For there were 17 Queries put by ( thy Couzen ) Corbet , every one of which were at large , and ( as to any likelihood of their being answered by you ) unanswerably Replyed to by Io. F. of which 17 thou bring'st out but eight . 2. As thou bringest out not one half of Corbets Queries , so , I judge I may safely say , not so much as the 20th part of I.F. his Answers , but only here and there some such broken bits and pieces of them , as ye thought would represent them , as weak and naked , to mens aspect , though indeed as piece-meal as ye have rendred them , they may well be left to stand against all your Priestly Prate , and pedling pelting ▪ at them . Why did ye not , seeing ye had a Quarrell at them , publish every inch of all I. F. his Answers to the 8 Queries ye have set down ? yea why not all the 17 Queries , and the whole of his returns to each of them , together with your own Replyes to those his Returns , that men might be undeceived by you that call your selves their Ministers , and take on you to be their Masters , so as to teach them truth , since ye deem them to be deceived by I.F. his Doctrines ? and then ye had saved your selves from the guilt and censure of that guile and deceit , that now ye are found in , while ye are found shuffling and cutting , picking and culling out here and there a ●aying , leaving out such adjoyning sentences , yea somtimes that half of the same sentence , which , being set down , would have shew'd his true sence of the whole , which ye scrue and wrest , as far as ye can tell how , into another then that intended by him : Expertus loquor , I speak what I know , having ( whether I shall Print it or no , I yet know not ) the whole entire Copy by me of those Queries and Answers amounting in all to two sheets , thy Cutted Account whereof comes not neer to the 8th part of one . Surely either one or both of you two Brethren in iniquity T.D. I. Corb . saw ye could not Reply to them , and so had made a swinging Rod for your Tayls , and slasht your selves as foundly therewith also , had ye put forth the whole truth , which ye have not told the Tithe of , whereupon ye have thrust out only some meer fragments of it , with as much manglement of them too , as ye well durst make , and with no other then this dribling answer of thine T.D. p. 6 , of thy second Narrative , viz , Surely by these Principles , in Conjunction with the rest in the Book , to which this Narrative is annexed ( though the said Principles remain as unrefuted , as impossible to be refuted by T.D. ) the Qua. have for ever forfeited the name of Christians , and are to be reputed Heathens . T.D. Thou tel'st and that twice over , viz. in thy Narrative , and in thy Witness W. W's reinforcing Reply to L. H. a Tale of L. H s saying , The Priests shall be destroyed by the people called Qua. Rep. But L. H. hath already so sufficiently disproved that in his Reply to thy 〈◊〉 , styled , the Devils how unstringed , by three persons , who , as I laid above , testifie his words to have been otherwise , and so prov'd thy Witness Will , Win●field Minister of Word , to be no Minister of the Word of truth , nor such a Godly Minister as thou printest him out for , who can joyn so cordially with thee in printing lyes , that I need say nothing : yet that the Preists shall be destroyed by the Qua. though L. H's words were not so , is true enough , I here affirm it , yet not by outward Gan , Sword , or carnal Weapon , but by the Sword of the Spirit , or Word of God in their mouths : Not by might , nor by power , but by my Spirit saith the Lord , Zach. 3. T. D. Thou sayst in the second page of E. B's Book , or word of Advice to the Souldiers , he bids them give the Ministers , or Priests blood to drink , for they are worthy . Rep. True enough , that the Priests will have as much blood as they are worthy of from the Lord , though the Qua. desire the salvation of their souls and bodies too , if yet it may be , and the destruction of nothing , but that sin , blindness and darkness , which destroyeth them in both : Howbeit in the second page of E Bill's . book ( unless there be another of his , or of E. Bur's . so stiled ) I find no such words as thou artes est to be there on thy own personal knowledge : and so all thy proofs of thy Grand Lye , for ought I see , fail thee , and Lie in the Lake together with it . Many more absurd and foolish frivolous tales thou tellest , that ● omit ; but two more of thy lying accusations of the Qua. more Remarkable , then all the rest of those Remarkable passages of thy two ( for nothing more then the many lies thereof ) most Renowned Narratives , remain yet to be Remarked , that all may see how thou and thy heard of hearers , and drove of ear-wigs have not so much me al honesty as to speak truth in matters of fact , which is the very fault thou chargest us with , and the worse in thee , sith Turpe est Doctori , cum culpa red arguit ipsum . And then I shall be at liberty to take a view of the many Lyes of thy Doctrine . Tho●e two , one whereof is prosecuted in thy last Narrative only , and the other more wickedly then wisely made , and drove on very devoutly in both , but especially in thy first , without either care or good counc●l , consideration or conscience , Truth or Righteousness , sense or reason , fear or wit , are these . T. D. That the Qua. intend to prosecute the promotion of their Principles by that bloody way of persecution with the outward sword . 2. That the Qua. are doubtlesly acted by the Antichristian , or Romish faction , and do drive on the Popish work and Papistical design , and of Qua. become Papists : and further ( for this Lye splits it self into two parts , one concerning the Qua. in generall , the other concerning my self in particular ) that I.S.F. am probably , and appear to be not only a Rank Papist , but also 〈◊〉 Iesuit holding complyance with the Pope , serving the Sea of Rome , & such like , of which more at large by and by . Rep. As to the first of these thy two Lyes of the Qua. it lies thus palpably ayerred in thy own words . T. D. The truth is , the Qua. now declare their intentions to propagate their perswasions by the sword , whereas they were want to pretend to so much meekness , or peaceableness , that they would hold neither spea● , nor sword . Rep. Here 's the charge ; An Arrand Lye , yet a Truth , if four or five more Lyes will Serve to prove it ; if not , men must take it for truth on no other Acconu● , then this , because T.D. who tels so many Lyes , that he deserves not to be believed , when he speaks the truth , doth falsly Say so : for thy pieces of proof , which are too piteous to prove thy main false Charge , were they all true , are , as to the truest information that I can get thereof , every of them false Charges , and a pack of Ly●s , like to that they are brought in proof of . The first Proof is this slender Story . At a Late Meeting of the Qua. in Hurst Pierpoint in Suffex , He that undertook to be Speaker , called out to the Priest , who accidentally pasled by , saying , we will have you all down ; for now our day is come . The second , this Tale. And a o●her Qua. in the Parish ●f Nuthurst , in the same Coun●y , did say to a Godly person of good quality in that Parish , that he no more cared to kill one of the Priests , as he styled the Ministers , then he would to kill a Dog. The Third , This Wicked Lye. And another Qua. Way-laid the Minister of Covehould ( a very worthy Reverend man at his return from a Fast ) and justled him upon the high way , ( as he kept it havi●g his Wife behind him ) and drew out his Sword , which he had by his side , about half way , which was a shrewd presumption that he intended the Minister mischi●f , but that some neighbours that came from the Fast , Coming up to them , prevented it ; and they do usually give o●t threatning speeches against the Ministry , a●d their Friends . Rep. In answer to these three , I here subscribe such information , as came from the mouths , or hands of sundry S●ssex men , living in and about these Parishes or Places ; T.D. Relates these matters of a truth to have been done , and spoken in , three or four of which are it seems , members of those two Parishes of Nuthurst , and Covewold , in such wi●e as follows . These three Charges or slanderous Accusations ( as they appear to us ) Coming to our hands , we , who are Inhabitants in the County of Sussex , near adjoyning to these places , where the Author saith these things were done , one of us dwelling in one of these Parishes , which he makes mention of , have a good and perfect knowledge of these men , who are called Quakers , and that They are men of better Qualifications , then to offer such violence , or to give out such terms as is here Charged upon them . Therefore for better satisfaction to ourselves , as also for the sake of others , who may be deceived in believing such things , by giving Credit unto them , without a surer ground , then because they are come forth in Print to a publike view , also from such A hand , whom they might think would not be so dishonest , as to be the Author of things that are not true . Upon these Considerations and others , which might be mentioned , we undertook to search out the matter with some diligence , that all who desire may be truly informed , and who have prejudice in themselves , neither against one sort of people nor another , because of names or differing in judgment ( as we have not our selves ) who are now about to satisfie of this matter that truth may appear , and that every action may be tryed by it in and among all sorts of people . Bryan Wilkinson . Humphery Killingbeck . So for the first accusation , which the Author makes mention to be spoken at Hurst , he hath caused a lie to be printed , as also the other two , for there were no such words spoke , nonly the friend , that did speak some words , from whence this report might arise , might ask the Priest of Hurst what they would do if the powers of the earth should for sake them , these words its like were spoken . And as for the second accusation and slanderous lie , which he saith was spoken by a Quake●s in the Parish of Nuthurst , we whose names are here under written , did go unto the man whom the Author calls godly and of good qualitie ( unto whom he said these words were spoken ) to know the truth of this thing : And his answer to us was , as he and some others were drinking together , there was one amongst them did say , that it was no more sin for to kill a wicked man , then a Swine . Thomas Wyly . Nicolas Manard . Though there was one , who went under the name of a Quaker , who did dwell in Nuthurst Parish , whom the man , which the Author calls godly and of good qualitie , did say was the man , that spoke these words above mentioned ; which are otherwi●e then what is Printed : Yet this man he ca●ls Quaker , that should say these words , hath not dwelt in the Parish of Nuthurst , neither in the County of Sussex this two year and half and above , neither hath he been in these parts of so long time , as can be sufficiently proved , and the cause of this might arise above a year before he went a way . And as for the third slanderous accusation : the Minister of Cavehold , which the Author of this scandalous Book calls a very reverend man , we whose names are here under mentioned , did go unto this Minister of Cavehold in Sussex the 16th day of this eleventh month . 59. For to have him to set his hand against this Scandal ; Because we knew that there was no such thing offered by them , from which this slander might arise : And his Answer to us was , that there was three Caveholds in Engla●d , and that it might be at some of them : But he said that he knew the man ( T.D. ) that set forth the Book , and that he had one of them himself , and he said he would send to the man to enquire of him , and if he meant Cavehold in Sussex he would give it under his hand that he was mis-informed , for there was no such thing done there : Neither to him . Humphery Killingbeck . Robert Thornden . But we have great Cause to beleive , that this slanderous Accusation did arise at the first from the Priest of Cavehod in Sussex , or by his meanes , as you shall hear ; for upon the 29 day of the 4th moneth , this present year 1659. at Horsam in Sussex this Priest of Cavehold in Sussex , with some other Priests besides of Sussex , did meet at the Steeple-House in H●●sam aforesaid in Sussex , where many of their Members , and other people besides were gathered together , as they said , to keep it as a day of Humiliation on Fasting day : Among which Robert Adams and some other Friends , who are called Quakers had freedome to go into the Steeple-House among them , and when the Priest of Caveh●ld of Sussex had done , and come out of the Pulpit , one friend did speak somthing in way of desire to the Priests to give the people called Qua. a publick dispute concerning Tythes , and other things , that people might come to understand who were most in the truth , whether Priests , or we called Qua. So upon our return homewards , after that we had Rid about a Mile , one William Field ove●took us , one of the Priests Members , which Rid along with us on the Rode , about a Mile and a half , in which time Priest Vinter , the Priest of Cavehold in Sussex , ( for so his name is , George Vinter , and he had his Wife behind him ) did overtake us as we Rid together , being in some discourse , and this Priest did bid Robert Adams call'd Qua. Ride out of the way , and R.A. said , the way might be as free for me as for thee , yet nevertheless in regard thou hast one behind thee , I will : and so he did Ride by the way : upon which the Priest did answer , if I had not one behind me , I would have the way of thee , or one of us should lye in the dust , and other threatning terms was given to R.A. by one who was in the same Company of the 〈◊〉 , who Rid up to us , and this man did justle R.A. on the way , and did lay his hand , or hands upon him , justling him as he Rid along . But after this we Rid together in discourse about his laying violent hands upon R.A. and other things , till we came within about half a Mile of their dwellings , where we parted . But as for a Sword R.A. had none , neither did he offer any abuse , nor give occasion of any such thing as they have Printed . This is the substance of the ri●e of this scandall , as I had it from Humphery Killinbeck , who was the friend , that was with Robert Adams at that time . Bryan Wilkinson . Something of one of the Priests Cheifest Members taken by us B. W. Humphery Killinbeck from his own hand writing . A true Coppy . Comming from a fast kept at Horsam , I overtook two men that had been at Horsam called Qua. about a Mile from the Town , and Rid about a Mile with them , and then the Minister of Caveh●ld and his Wife , and other Neighbours overtook them also ; But I saw no Sword any of them had , nor I think none of them , nor the Minister , neither will he say that he offered him any vio●ence , I did not see they did , and t is easie to know whether they did or not . William Field . Another Coppy from under the hand of another of the Priests Members . These are to certifie whom it may Concerne that I did heare the Minister of Cavehold say that Robert Adams a Qua. did Ride from Horsam , and that he did overtake him as he went from a Fast , and that Robert Adams did fall upon him in Railing terms , and did justle him with his Wife behind him ; But he did not draw a Sword , neither had he any with him ; Given under my hand , Cavehould 17th of Ianuary , 1660. By me Thomas Ward . Another of Priest Vinters Members , a Coppy subscribed with his own hand . I Thomas Parsons one of the Parish of Cav●hould in Sussex , not being above five miles from Horsam did not hear of it , neither by Mr. Vinter , nor by any other Neighbour , and do think it very strange that any such things were , but I should have known it . By me Thomas Parson . See T.D. how your own Parish people , the very Earth , helps the Church , the Woman that beares the manchild against your slanderons Tongues and Pens , and opens her mouth , & swallows up the flood of lyes and falshood , which that great R●d D●agon , that Old Serpent , called the D●vill , and Satan casts out of his own mouth , and the mouths of you his Angels , who fight under him against Michaell and his Angels against her , that he might cau●e her ( if he could ) to be carried away with that flood of wrath , which ye are ever warring against her withall . Thou tellest of Way-laying , when thy very Worthy and Reverend man , or Way-laid Minister overtook the Qua. and swell'd in high and Lordly words against him , in his Lordly return from his L●●ly Fast , wherein ( hower'e he might hang down his head like a Bul-rush for a few hours yet ) the bands of his wick●dness were not loos●d , nor his haughty heart so well humbled as it should have been : thou talk'st of justling & threatning speeches the Qua gave , when that was the gesture used by others towards him ; thou tell'st of a Qua. drawing his Sword , and intending mischief , if Neighbours comming from the Fast had not prevented it by comming up to them , whereas the man hims●lf sayes there was no such thing done there , nor to him , and the very Neigbours that came from the Fast , witness against thee that the Qua. had no sword at all . Blush therefore ( as well thou may'st ) thou that sayst thou are upon the Stage not without a blush ( but at what thou sayst not ) and be ashamed of thy abominable abuses , as one that must once be Conscious to thy self , if any light be yet left in thy Con●cience , of wronging thy Qua. not only in thy Relation of the disputes between thee and them , but also in thy naughty , nasty Narratives of so many lyes and false matters of fact concerning them ; left the Lord give thee over at last to stronger and stronger delusion yet , both to beleive lyes thy self , that thou mayst be damned , and to bely the only true Beleivers of the truth . Now whereas in thy half sheet in answer to L. Hw . thou T.D. saist thus : it may suffice to let the world know thou hast the 〈◊〉 under the hand of Mr. Vinter ( as thou call'st him ) Minister of Cavehould in Sussex , a very worthy and Reverend man , who asserts the Assaults made upon himself by the Qua. and canst produce witnesses Credible of that Action , and of the words therein reported , and that they that know him can inform those , who are ignorant , that his word may be take● for matters of greater moment . Rep. Much more might be said , but ( as thou sayst ) the Press being likely to make the business more publick then the Market place , what is above Printed may ( for more I have by me ) suffice to let the world know ( if yet thou have such Relations under the Ministers hand ) what kind of Creatures thy Credible Witnesses are , and how unworthy thy very worthy and Reverend men are to be call'd Ministers of the Gospel , and to have their words taken in matters of Doctrine , and Soul conce●nment , who are found saying lyes to thee in secret of the Qua. and unsaying them to their faces , and not having so much morall honesty as to speak truth in matters of Fact , nor yet so much trustiness neither to their own Father of lyes , as to keep his and their own Councill , without be wraying it , when they have done , as this Cavehold Reverend Clergy man seems to have done by that Testimony of his I have here inserted , and that contrary one to himself , which thou say'st thou hast under his own hand ; and this may suffice also to let all men see , who are not wilfully blinded , what fruits follow the most solemn Fasts of this Generation of Blind guides , when they gather together after their devouring of Widows Houses , and sp●yling of poor P●oples Goods for Tyths , for a pretence to make long Prayers ; So that I shall do no more , as to that last piece of Patch of T. D's . putting forth ( having returned the ●ye upon him again , which he thinks he has returned to L. H ) then , having pluckt its wings , turn the Sting , that stands at the tayl of that Bawbling Butterfly , back upon himself , and in short shut up this my return ( as to that ) in the very last words ( mutatis mutandis , additis addendis ) wherein thou T.D. concludest that thy , as Impudent , as Impotent Rejoynder to L.H. viz. So that upon the Whole , the Publisher hereof ( S.F. ) doubts not but that the Wise will be able to discern between truth and falshood , and will in their own thoughts be as farr from acquitting T.D. and his Companions , whom L.H. Charges with Lying , as they would a Thief at the Bar , meerly because he pleads not guilty to his Indictment , which is an usual thing , let the evidence be what it will. And he doubts not but if they should revile in Print again , he may be excused , if he make no other return , then Inhonestum est honestam matronam cum me●etrice litigare , i.e. It is unseemly for an honest Matron to stand brawling with a Whore. London , 2. d. 2. m. 1660. Sam. Fisher. And whether the Qua. or the Parish Priests are ( respectively ) the Loyall Spouse , the Lambs Wife , Rev. 21. or that great Whore , which makes the Earth Drunk with the Wine of the Wrath of her Fornications , Rev. 17. if the Night is not yet spent farr enough for all to see ; yet Dies Declarabit ( though this is your hour and the power of Darkness ) the day is at hand , that will declar● it to all that yet know it not . And now as to thy Generall false charge of the Qua. as complying with the Papists and Antichristian Faction , which is not thine alone , but that of Will. Prinn , I. O. I. Tomb's , R. Baxte● also , and of the Priest of Kendall , W. Brownsword answered in that particular by E. Bur. I. Story , and in a manner of the whole Covent of co-contenders against the Quakers . Rep. I should blush and be Ashamed were I in thy case , to make such a confident Narrative of it , and such an undoubted Profession of my faith thereof , as thou dost of thine , and produce no more then two such pitiful proofs for it as thou dost ; and to send it abroad in Print on two such lame legs , as can help it are the stile . Little more then a bare Repetition of thy Reasons after thee , is enough to a Right Reader to Render the urger of them Reasonless and Ridiculous enough in all Reason . T. D. I am out of doubt , ( sayst thou ) they are Acted by the Antichristian Faction . Rep. Why so ? T. D. A Gentleman of good credit assured me that be met with an English Iesuit in London , the first Lords day in June last ; one who was bred in Cambridge , and had been formerly of his acquaintance , who after some shyness to be known , at length confessed that he came over to propagate the Romish Faith , and told him that there was a good honest people called Quakers , whom we jeer'd at , that did their work at the second hand ; and he boasted much of the numbers that turned Catholicks immediatly , or mediatly , by becoming Quakers . Rep. Both thou and thy men of credit will come to be out of credit ere long , if thou crack thy own and their credit but a little longer , so much as thou hast done hitherto . But 1. Suppose it true , that he assured thee so . 2. Suppose that true he assur'd thee of : what then ? The Papists dote , as our Priests often do in other cases , that that will make for them , which to any , but such as discern not the signs of this season , doth undoubtedly work toward their utter ruin , therefore doubtlesly the Qua. either are or will turn Papists . Object . But many by becoming Qua. turn Catholicks . Rep. The Qua. are of the Catholick Church , if thou wilt know , as thou dost , what Catholick is , but so are not the Papists , that are of no Church , but that of Rome : the Church of Rome is but a Particular Church as that of England , or another National one may be : but the Catholick Church is general and universal ; a Church that was before Rome was a Church or a City either , as some Qua. have oft asserted to Friars and Iesuits , to the stopping of their mouths : a Church that had its Being ( though the world sees it not , nor knows it ) from Abel to this day : to which General Assembly and Church of the first-born , whose names are written in heaven , and to the spirits of Iust men made perfect , the Qua. are come , as the Saints were of old , Heb. 12. and so ( while Romanists are but , as ye are , a Bastard brood ) the Qua. are the truest Catholick Church , that is in the world . T. D. Anothe● Gentleman , that came this Spring from St. Omars , did avouth that he saw the Iesuits there , about four a Clock every evening throw off their Gowns , and put on aprons , and betake themselves to the exercise of Handy-craft callings ; some plaid the Shoomakers , others sa●e at the Loom , others kill'd and dress'd sheep , and they did not stick to boast , that under the disguise of such callings ( working as Iou●nymen , and changing place as they listed ) they served the Romish Church . And the Head of the Colledge told him , that England never was in so fair a way of return to the Romish Sea , since it broke off , as now . And what hopes the Papists can have , unless from the encrease of Qua. I leave Reader to thy determination . Rep. What news is this to any but Nevices , that Iesuits in craft use handicraft callings , that under that disguise they may serve Rome ? but what follows hence ? T. D. Nempe similium similis ratio : the Qua. are mostly handicrafts men , and in that the Iesuits and Qua. are alike : the one can outwardly work with their hands , ( a thing that our Priests will never do till they must needs ) so can the other ; the one can make sh●os , so can the other ; the one can handle the Loom , kill and dress sheep , so can the other ; therefore the Qua. and Iesuits are all one . Rep. And so are All things as they have a being ; but as nullum simile est Idem , so nullum simile currit quatuor , was a lesson that I once learn't , and T.D. too ; but he can forget it for his own ends , and so argue as accurately a comparatis , to prove the Qua. to be as like the Iesuits , as ever they can look , as the Franciscan Friar in his Sermon a simili & comparatis comparandis , prov'd his beloved St. Francis to be as exactly like to Christ , as could be , in this manner ; Christ was born , and so was St. Francis ; Christ liv'd , and so did St. Francis ; Christ was on earth , and so was St. Francis ; Christ died , and so did St. Francis ; Christ went to hell , and so did St. Fr. in all which the man was very right ; but when he stretcht his simile so far in love to St. Francis , as to say Christ came back again , and so did St. Fr. nay now thou lyest ( quoth one of his hearers ) for though Christ descended into hell , as did also Saint Fr. yet he came out again , and so did not St. Fr. but he is there still , and ever will be . In like manner I l'e yield to T. D's comparison of the Qua. and Iesuits as far as is fit ; the Iesuits are men , and so are the Qua. Iesuits are in Christendom , and so are the Qua. Iesuits are Preachers , and so are the Qua. Iesuits can work with their hands and preach too , and so can the Qua. ( the more shame for our lazy Lord Beggars that are ashamed to dig , but to beg are nor ashamed ) but if T.D. strein his stuff so far upon the Tenters , as ( whereas the Iesuits do also this to serve the Rom●sh Church ) and in the heighth of his servent hatred to the Qua. to say the Qua. do so too , I shall leave him Lying there , as the fellow did the foresaid Fryar , saying no more but thus ; that what work with their own hands preaching Qua do , they do it as Paul did , who ( otherwise ) had a power to cease from working , that they may make the Gospel ( which our Parish Priests have long made such a gainful Trade of , to the cost of these Nations ) without charge to the Nations that yet own it not : as those did of old , 1 Ioh. 3. Ep. who went forth freely for his names sake , taking nothing of the Nations , CHAP. III. AND now as to thy second Part to the same tune , wherein thou Cantest i● out aloud concerning my self , who am not only more pers●nally and immediately concerned in it , but concerned also for the Go●pels sake I hold forth to clear my self . Thou green-headedly goest about to insinuate it into all people , that his not groundlesly to be su'pected , that I Comply , as one with them , with the Pope or Cardinals at Rome , as from some others , more simple , then it self , so chiefly from that ( sa●is superque ) simple Antecedent , viz. my 〈◊〉 some Doctrines which are theirs . Now since I am one against whom there is such prejudice among all manner of people , through the subtle , sinister , and sinful suggestions of the Priests , both Prating , and Preaching and Printing me to be in likelihood a Papist , a Iesuit , &c. So that I can go no where among those of my own Nation , in any service to the Gospel , , where I am not so hit i' th Teeth with Rome , and kissing the Popes 〈◊〉 , and such like Toys , that Equity itself from my mouth , cannot enter into many minds , by Reason of the Iniquity of Levi's lies , which are in love with lyes : bear with me yet a little longer in that folly of An●we●ing a few Fools according to their Folly , though in so doing , I make my self for a while more like them , then ( through mercy ) I Really am , left being ( as else I myself had much rather be in this case ) wholly silent , they grow so wise in their own conceits , as to take my total silence ( as T.D. is very hasty to do in other cases , p. 2. ) for con●ent , that all the lyes they broach , and for the truths sake load me with , are Truths indeed . The Capital Crime , then which I am by many Priests charged with , and which my holding some Truths , they hold at Rome , is by T.D. made the Cardinal Proof of , is that of Popery , of Receiving a Pension from the Pope , of Complying with the Antichristian faction , with the Pope and Cardinals at Rome : The whole Parcel of Proof , which that aforesaid is a Prime Part of , is made up of many more particular Ingredients , & Compounded of several other Simples , whereof some are urg'd not only in proof of the main Point , or Accusation , but as Accusations themselves , of which some are true , some false , others urgd only as proofs of that grand crime I am accus'd of . I would willingly ( much Printing being as burdensom to mens purses , as much Writing is to their persons ) to save the Charge of Printing that o're again , which was never worth the thousandth part of its first Impression , have breifly hin●ed only at the heads of that fardell of falshood , and cut them off as fast as I had named them , but that I may be free from all suspition of doing him wrong , and be sure to do him no more then Right , who so grosly wrongs me , it lies the more on me to se● them down in his own words , wherein they Lye altogether in one lake , p. 56 , 57 , 58. of T. D's . Paper , Only he shall give me , or ( if not ) I shall take leave ( as of● as I see occasion ) to leave out M● . wherever it stands before my name , and set S. only in its stead , or any other mans name , whether in this , or any other part of his book , when I have occasion to mention any of those , to whose names he sets it ( as he doth to some , and not to some , to shew his partiality and respect of persons , which stands not with the faith of God ) and being on good grounds free neither to stand Mastering up of them , into whose service I have never hired my self , nor ( if they please to forbear it to me wards ) to own that Title of Mr. to my self , which some use so much to each other , till it stinks , & T. D's book so much to me , that I am asham'd on 't , from any of them that were never any of my hired Servants : And howbeit I once ( Iure Academico ) by as much Right , as such men , as chuse to have it still done so to themselves , in token of their Mastership of Arts , had that Half penny piece of Honour of M.A. Printed to my name , as T.D. now hath , in Title-pages , ( and that that past in times of ignorance , let it pass without more mention , or finding fault with it , from my self and others ) yet if my self , or any shall henceforth write , or cause himself by Pen or Press , to be inscribed either M.A. or D.D. or B.D. and any Reader in his ignorance , not knowing well how to Cypher or cast Account , shall happen to Read Mr. Ass , or Dr. Dunce , or Blind Divine , the Affecter of those Trifling Titles of Mr. of Arts , Doctor in Divinity , & Batchelour in Divinity , who is not more Baccalaureus , then Laurus sine baccis , shall in no wise be Laughed at , and as little Lamented at all by me . And since I am thus casually fallen upon this Theam , about Respect to mens Persons , and using Titles of Honour to them ; It s not much amiss ( I minding Gods matters more then Mens manners , and plain-ness more then that our Masters of Art call Method ) before I proceed in Examination of T. D's false charge of me , as to matter of Popery , left I find no fitter Place for it in the after part of this Book , to take notice here of another inordinate Charge of T.D. in which ( it concerning all the Qua. ) my self also am not a little concern'd , which , in p. 47. of his first Pamph. upon occasion of R.H. his calling Thomas Rumsey by his own name : is on this wise . T. D. You Qua. are an unmannerly Generation , you might have given a Magistrate the Title of Master . Rep. How Contrary are these Teachers , Ministers , alias Servants of our times , who ( with the rest of their fellow Rabbies , painted Sepulchres , whited Walls , out-side cleansers , Scribes , Pharisees , Hypocrites , blind Guides , strainers at Gnats and swallowers of Camels ) Love uppermost Rooms at Feasts , Chief Seats in Synagogues , greetings in Markets , and affect to have men called , and to be called of men Rabbi , Rabbi , Master , Master , Reverend Sir , and such like , to the only One Master Christ , who condemns all this , and cryes Wo against those , that are found in it , Mat. 23. ●r●t otum ? How contrary are they to his Apostles , who forbade this respect to mens Persons , which these Master Ministers are ever and anon pleading for against the Qua. as a clownish , unmannerly Generation for not giving it : Iames sayes , Iames 2.1 . to 10. My Brethren , have not the faith of our Lord Iesus with respect of Persons : telling the Saints that if they have respect to Rich men that wear gold Rings and goodly Apparrell , and set them up on high , and despise the Poor in vile Rayment , setting them at their heels , and putting them under feet , as the footstool ; they are Partial within themselves , Commit sin , and are Convinced of the Law as Transgressors : Elihu , when he was to speak for God to Iob , and his great Friends , sayd Job 32.21 , 22. Let me not accept any mans Person , neither let me give fla●tering T●tl●s unto man ; for I know not to give fla●tering Titles : in so doing , my Maker would soon take me away : and so goes on , using no other Titles to him beside his Name , and that plain ( but now disdained ) Thee and 〈◊〉 , as his words are most truly and properly Translated out of the O●ig●●al into Right English : thus did the Saints and Ministers of God of old , even like to Christ himself , of whom t was said by the Pharisees , Mat. 22.16 , 17. that took notice of it ( and perhaps disgusted it as much as our Modern Ministers now do , some of which though they say little , yet think the more ) Master , we know thou art true , and Teachest the way of God in truth , neither carest thou for any man , for thou rega●d●st not the Person of men , even Caesars meer Person more then anothers , yet he gave Caesar his due too and ( though he was free ) gave him Tribute , Mat. 17.24 , 25 , 26 , 27. and so did his Saints then , and we now , give Tribute to whom Tribute , custom to whom custom , honour to whom honour , fear to whom fear , obedience to wh●m obedience is due ; and with that honour of yielding Tribute and Subjection to , as we have the due Benefit of Protection by their Laws while Just , and Enacted according to the Law and Light of Christ in Every Conscience , which is holy , just and good , and while as justly executed by Rulers , do we honour them : yet then only are their Laws justly Enacted and Executed ( nevertheless ) when these outward Sword-bearers and their Laws are a Terror to Evil Works , and a Praise & Encouragement to the good , and to them that do well ; for else they act more Might then Right , and ( as the Devil does , who is the Prince of the Power of the air , the God of this world and Ruler of the darkness of it ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according to meer will and lust , not according to Law itself , by permission for a time , but not by any true Commission from God himself , by whom the Law , which we own in its place , was added because of transgression , and is not for the righteous , but for the unrighteous , for murderers , theeves , and whatever is contrary to sound Doctrine and Godliness . And this truly divine Honour of subjection and obedience to Magistrates just Laws , as justly Executed as Enacted , is it , and not the meer Humane H●mage of high flattering Titles , as You and Sir , and complements , and cringings , and outward worships , and genu-flexions , and bodily Bowings to mens persons , which in the second Commandment ( by whom ever used , as in the Typical shado●y time , they were by Iacob to Esau himself , by ● David and others , whose practice is not our Rule , but Gods praecept ) are prohibited to be given to the Image or likeness of any thing in heaven , earth , or under the earth , is that God cals for , and we give for conscience sake . And thus we honour all men , owing nothing to any but love , which works no ill to the neighbour , and fulfils the Law , and so children are bid by Paul to obey their , Parents as 't is fit in the Lord , in which obedience , though they make not Idols of them , kneel not down , and ask them blessing , as in Popish days they foolishly did to their Godfathers and Godmothers , when they meet them , they are said according to that Commandment to Honour the Father and the Mother , Ehh. 6.1 , 2. And so Servants in their Relation honour their own Masters , when , not with eye-service as men-pleasers , but in singleness of heart , as fearing God the great Master in heaven , they are faithful in the business they are entrusted with by them , though they never stand cap in hand to them , and should never call them by that name of Master , which yet we allow as the Scripture it self does , as well that of Father , Mother , King , Ruler , Magistrate , when used , not as a flattering Title , but as a Note , or Term of distinction between the Relatum and the Correlatum in that Relation , that is between Princes and Subjects , Parents and Children , Masters and the Servants , that have hired themselves to them : and thus only ought things to-be among the Saints . Howbeit such a Generation of Parasites are all sorts of Professors now become , that ( without exception of any but the Qua. who come to that beginning , which is also the end of all things , and is now at hand ) they all more or less have Mens Persons in Admiration , because of Advantage , and are found sluttering and falling down at the feet of the great Lords of the earth , little less then adoring the Earthly Tabernacles of those that can climb highest in Authority , and painting and trimming them out ( as the rest of the Birds , did the naked Iack-daw in the fable , with every one a new fine feather ) till every one plucking away his own again , as anon they do , they leave their Lords , who knew not their old friends , nor themselves neither , while their honour lasted , which is ( plus in honorante ever , then in honorato ) and stands more in his fickle will , that gives , then his , that hath the honour , as naked laughing stocks in the midst of their fellow-creatures , and in more fulness of shame and confusion of face , then could have befell them possibly , had they never been so preheminently exalted . Yea so odious are the cronchings of Christians to each other , according as they are higher or lower in their Gentile Preferments , and Gentile-like Lordliness that they ( contrary to Christ , who said to his Disciples , Mat. 20.25 , 26 , 27. it shall not be so among you ) exercise or'e one another , and that not only in Italy , France , and Spain , but even in these , so ever and anon besworn ( not to say forsworn ) Nations , that are ever reforming , and yet deformed , that it loads and loaths the life of God in his Saints , while in the light it looks upon those Antick Adorations , that pass between man and man , Christian and Christian , Brother and Brother in the same Church , when one clambers but a little higher then another in places of earthly command , not only in such words , as may it please your Highness , your Excellency , my Lord , &c. but also such Gestures and Postures of standing ●●re , and putting off , and bending to the very soles of one anothers feet in token of respect , and that sometimes when in heart they could with each other hang'd , and holding up one anothers Traines , cum multis aliis quae nauc , &c. as if they would do honour to the shadow of one anothers shoo-strings , and tie themselves eternally to attend upon the very Tayles one of another , for the lease of such perishing pieces of outward honour , as are entail'd ( as they dream ) on such and such places ( as persons can procure them ) for no less then from henceforth world without end Amen . Besides oh the shamefully mis-attributed Titles that are now entaild as Badges of Honour by men one to another , from Generation to Generation , as may it please your Holiness , which is that Flattering Title Blasphemously and Prophanely attributed to his Wickedness the Pope , your Majesty , your Highness , your Grace , your Eminency , your Excellency , your Honour , your Worship , &c : Honoured Sir , Reverend Sir , Worthy Sir , Segnior , Mounsieur , Master , &c : which are ( Respectively ) attributed to Emperors , Kings , Princes , Dukes , Generalls , Marquesses , Earls , Vizcounts , Barons , Baronets , Knights , Esq. Iudges , Serjeants , Doctors at Law , Councellers , Governours and Commanders , Civil and Millitary , Cardinalls , Mountseniors , Arch-Bishops , Bishops , Abbots , Arch Deacons , Deanes , and their Officialls , Doctors , Batchelors in Divinity , and other Sciences , Masters and Batchelors of Arts , and such Academicall Admirers of mens persons for Advantage , Rectors , Parsons , Vicars , Curates , and other such Spirituall Persons , and Clericall , Classicall , and Conventionall Creatures , and all these little less abominaably , and prophanely , then that of Holiness to the Pope , forasmuch as the men ( call'd Christians ) who now give and take all these , do , to their own further Confusion make Confession to God himself through their Priests Lips , and Ministers mouths in their daily Prayers , that all Honour , Glory , Praise , Power , Blessing , Dignity , Dominion , Worship , Worth , Reverence , Thanksgiving and Obedience belongs to God alone ; and do to him only ( but that they mock him while they Pray ) seem to ascribe it all ; and if all belong to him only , then none to Man , whose breath is in his Nostrills , who is to be ceased from , and not at all to be accounted on , at least while he beares ( as in the fall he does ) no other then the Dishonourable Image of Satan , and till he come back by the Light into that Image , and Glory of God , which now by sin ( saving the few that are Regenerated from that Degeneracy ) Mankind universally comes short of ; which Image , Power , and Glory of God alone in man , which Image is Christ Jesus , the Righteousness and Wisdom of God , the express Image of the Father , we Respect , Reverence and Honour , where even it appears , let the person in which be elsewise never so mean among mistaken men ; so daily honouring all men ( in the Lord ) as enjoyned by him , 1 Pet. 2. and as he does that dwells in Gods Holy Hill , in whose eyes as it s said , Psal. 15. a Vile person is contemned ( not estimated , or counted on the more for his outward greatness ) but he Honours them that fear the Lord , whom men in the fall , that regard wordly Goods and earthly Greatness , more then Reall and Heavenly Goodness , for the most part are found despising . And further yet , so gros is the greediness after this destruction , of the Faith of God by the fore●aid Respect to mens Persons in this English Nation , that for the sake thereof they are , as few or no Nations besides them are , become more ignorant in one thing , then the poor unlearn'd Qua. ( as they call them ) are in their own mother Tongue : for as little as the Qua. do ultra linguam vernaculam sapers , and as little La ine as they understand , as I. O. sayes in his Latine Labours against them , yet they both ken and keep to the proper Idiom of the English Language , in using that of Thee and Thou , when they speak to what ever single Person without respect , but our M●ngrill Seed , or Canaanitish Ashdodites , speak half one way , and half another , often Thee-ing and Thou-ing their inferiors , but so ●are of offending great Mecenasses , and men of place and Power ( ●ho in eodem cum illis harent lut● ) they ●peak by the Plurall ( You ) as if they were talking to more , while they are bespeaking no more then one : an absurd abuse of their Native Nationall Tongue . In Hebrew , Greek and Latine there is not such a gross perverting of the pronoune of the 2d . person Plurall , as Slavish feare and flattery , and fawning , and pride , and men pleasing , and Ambition ; and affectation of the Honour from beneath , & respect to the persons of men , and having them in admiration because of advantage & such like dirt & filth as is tit for nought , but the Dunghil , from whence it came , hath brought into our English Nation , where the filth aforesaid hath blinded , and besotted the Foolish folk thereof , so far that it hath in a manner forced them universally to forget and forsake that forme of speech that is most proper to the English tongue , and utterly to loose their own Native Language & the right use of the aforesaid Pronoune , so as to wrest it besides its own due , true , speciall , prime , and genuine signification into a sense that is ( in truth ) no less then false , silly , & non sensicall . For in Hebrew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Attah ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if it be the Faeminine ) not only signifies Thou or Thee , as likewise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Attem and Atten in the Plurall You and Yee , but also the Iewish Nation in their writings and talkings one to another ( as they ever did ) so do at this day usually keep thereunto , saying continually , when they speak to a single per on only , though never so great , as well as when to the meanest , Attah ( or At , if to a woman ) that is ( being Englished ) Thou or Thee , but never Attem or Atten , that is ( being Englished ) You or Yee , but when they speak to more then one ; the truth whereof , as some of them call'd Qua. have been Eare Witnesses , who have been in discourse with many of those thousands of the Iews they have been amongst , so all that know ought of the Hebrew Tongue , may be eye Witness thereof , if they will but peruse the Scriptures , or any other writings in that Language . Also in Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , su , sou , soi , se , which are the same pronoune of the 2d Person Singular , varied only as to the Case , signifying Thou or Thee , are universally used among the Gracians , both in Orall discourses , and Writings , when a single person only is spoken to , and the words in the Plurall , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , humeu , humon , humin , humas , which in English are you or yee us'd only when more then one are spoken to . Also in Latine every one that is learn'd no farther then the Accidence hath learnt so much that Tu , tui , tibi , te , which are Thou or Thee , in the singular number only , a●e us'd , and never vos , vestrium , vobis , which in sence and signification are You and Yee , when a single person only is written or spoken to , and it would be counted false Latine and Ridiculous , and such a thing as deserves hissing at among very School-Boyes , to use the Terms vos or vobis to express one single person by . And yet such is the Folly and Apishness of our English Nation , that when they speak to one person only , specially if it be a Superiour ( for when they speak to Inferiours , they often times keep to Thee and Thou , and Thy or Thine , which is the pronoune possessive , derived from its primitive Thou : E. G. Thou shalt have this or that , I will give this or that to Thee , get Thee hence , go Thy why , this book is Thine and such like ) but when a Superiour ( I say ) is spoken to as a Matter , a Father , a Land-Lord , a Knight , a Gentleman , as they call them , a Magistrate , a Governour , or some great ●ne , then out of that Reverentiall respect they have to mens Persons , ( which cannot stand with the true faith of God , and without transgression of the Law Iam. 2. ) they use the words You & Yee , and Your and Yours &c : which in the propriety of the English speech , are only for the Plurall number , and to be used only when more persons then one are spoken to : which gross digression and degeneration from the truth of their own mother Tongue in saying You Sir , may it please you , your Worship , your Excellency or the like , is as abominably absurd , as it would be , if in any of the three Languages abovesaid , men should use words of the Plurall number to a particular person , and the absolute absurdity of that every A B C-darian only in any of those Tongues is able to discover , and would Abandon : yea to say in English , you Sir , to one man , be he never so Eminent , is as false English , as its false Latine to say to one in Latine , vos domine , & that 's as false , as to expre●s these words ( Thou lovest ) by the Latine words vos amas , which is no better then nos am● , or ego aman●●us , or tu ama●is , or ●ille amant , and all this the very Accidence doth cry shame on : Finally , as the Hebrew , Greek and Latine Testaments , as well as all other writings in those several Languages , do so clearly witness it ( besides what evidence comes into this matter from other Tongues ( viz ) Italian , Dutch , Spanish , &c ) that as we may safely summon all men to shew us so much as one instance , where any of the words of the Plurall number are ever used to a verbe of the second person singular , or us'd to express one single individuall person , so as to say in Hebrew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Abavia Attem , or in Greek , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or in Latine vos amas , which are all , being Englished , Thou Levest , so ( excepting the writings of modern men only ; or their modern Translations of other Ancient , Humane writings , which all makes nothing against us in this case ) so rightly , properly , and truly , both have and still daily do our very Adversaries fall in with us , and favour us , whether they will or no , in this point in the Translation of all our English Bible , which for shame they will not say , but they have Translated into the most proper , and not improper English , that we can challenge all English men in the world to shew us any one Translation , or any place in any one Translation of the Bible , out of Hebrew , Greek , or Latine , into the English Tongue , wherein the word You ( which is now so used in their Common discourses one to another , but especially when proud personages are bespoken ) or any other terme then that of Thou or Thee is used to speak to a single person by , as well when God himself , or the greatest King or proudest Prince , as when the poorest Peasant , or simplest Servant is spoken to , and we will yeeld further to them that stomack it to be Thee'd and Thou'd by us , then yet we can , or if they will help themselves by such a helpless shift , as to say the Bibles are not Translated so properly and truly as they should be , as to those words of Thou or Thee , let such as snuff at Thou and Thee from us , put out the words Thou and Thee , and instead thereof , put in the words you or yee , when God and great men are spoken to , so as where it s said to God , Thou O Lord madest the Heavens , and they are the work of Thine Hands , all Thy workes praise Thee , and Thy Saints bless Thee , to read thus , ( viz ) You O God made the Heavens , they are the works of Your Hands , all Your works praise You , and Your Saints bless You , &c : and in that place where Paul saith to Agrippa , dost Thou beleive O King Agrippa ? yea I know Thou beleivest , to Read , dost Ye beleive O King Agrippa , yea I know You beleivest , and they will see what a palpable piece of nonsence it would amount to , like to which yet they utter and sound forth in their ordinary locution , but feel it not ; And last of all , if Thou and Thee be not to be used to a single person only , it hath no place , nor use at all in the English-Tongue , for it can't possibly be properly used when we speak to more , it being ( saving when we speak to them as a Collective body , and as one , and so somtimes the Prophets spake to whole Nations under the Term of Thou and Thee ) no less unsound and unsavory to say Thou or Thee to 20 men , as You or Ye to one , and alike foolish to say to two severall men , Thou shale both dye , I le kill Thee both , as to say to one of them only , You alone shall dye , I will kill You ; which are two Bulls that deserve both to be soundly baited . To conclude this then , we see how our Chief Priests , Scribes , Pharisees and Hypocrites of these dayes , as they did of old Love the Praise of men , more then the Praise of God ; have that Faith , they have in God , with respect to the Persons of men , which who so has is a Sinner , and Transgressor of the Law , and though their mouths speak great swelling words of Faith , Religion , Reformation , God , Christ , Church , Ministry , Maintenanc● , yet they are but walkers after their own Lusts and , Sensuall , or meer Animall as Iude sayes , verse 16.19 . not having the Spirit , while they have mens persons in admiration , because of advantage ; and beleive not , though they deem themselves ( every one in his own form ) to be the true beleivers , so long as they are thus busied in begging and buying , giving and taking this honour that is from beneath only : for not seeking the honour that is only from aboue , which all the Saints have Psal. 149.9 . l●t them say what they will , yee sayes Christ , Ioh. 5.44 . How can ye beleive , which receive honour one of another , and seek not the Honour that commeth from God only ? As unmannerly a Generation then as T.D. faith the Qua. are , in not using that flattering Title of Mr. to T. Rumsey the Magistrate , I say if T. Rs. carriage were more like a Magistrates , then 't is , according to the Proverb , 't is better of the two , if that were unmannerliness , to be a little unmannerly , then so much troublesome as men in the fall are one to another with their Tedious Attendances , Antick Adoratious of each other , and supersluous Complements , bu● indeed 〈◊〉 good manners to use it by none , but that people , whose evill Communications corrupt good manners , the Heathen whose Customes are vain : and as for us , if any man list to be contentious about our manners in such matters , he must know that , as there 's no Law of God or man that hinds us from Keeping on our hats , from thee or thou , to Cap and Congee , and you Sir , and Master , and such like flatteries , not to say meer fooleries , which are all in the fall ; so we have no such manner of manners , nor customes among us , nor any of the true Churches of God. And hereby we appeare to any , save such as will needs mistake us , to be neither Papists , nor Popish Priests ; for they have as much of that kind of ill manners of honouring each others persons , as is to be found among your selves , nevertheless , who so blind as he that will not see , thou T. D. wilt needs so befool thy self as to make it pro●abl● that I am one of them , whose words ( excepting as in the proviso abovesaid , ●re now Verbatim to be Rehearsed ; who having hinted it in p. 55. how Rob. Wilkinson Minister of Staple had accused me to have been at Rome , and received a Pension from the Pope goest on as followes . T. D. As to the matter whereof Samuel Fisher was accused , part of it he denied not , namely , that he hath been at Rome , but that he received a Pension from the Pope , he utterly denied , which yet that is probably as true , for I have it from very good hands , that in his late travail to Constantinople , and thence to Rome , he had as good Bills of Exchange , as most Gentlemen that travaile , and yet 't is well known that he hath no visible Estate . And the Qua. who came to hear the dispute ( who I suppose would not bely him ) did report , that he did bear his witness against the Pope and Cardinals at Rome , and yet suffer'd them not to meddle with him , which how unprobable it is , let all men judge , but how much more probable , that the true cause of his safety was his compliance with them , the Doctrines which he broaches among us , and ( as he saies ) in all other places , being theirs , and a fair inlet to their Bag and Baggage . And to assure the Reader of the likelihood of his compliance with the Antichristian Faction , thou maist please to know , that the 12th instant ( English account ) two honest , and credible men of Sandwich had some discourse with S. Fisher at Dunkirk , and he told them that he looked upon the Jesuits and Friars there , to be founder in Doctrine , then those we call the Reformed Churches . This they are ready to testifie at any time upon call . Another passage I have to acquaint thee with , viz. that the aforesaid S. Fisher , in Conference with the above-named Sandwich men at Dunkirk , May 12. English stile , did affirm that he himself is above Ordinances , and that there is no more use of them in this life , to many portions , then there is of a Candle-light , when the Sun shines , and he gave instance in the uselessness of Baptism , and the Lords Supper . And the same witnesses were credibly informed at Dunkirk , that S. Fisher hath great Bills of Exchange from a Quaking London Merchant , and may take up four hundred pound if he will. And hundreds of people can testifie how light he made of the charge of Pope●● , on the first day of the Dispute , when I pluck'd Amesus 4th Tome against Bellarmine , and offer'd to read part of it out of the Latine into English ; and with a gesture of derision he replied , that Bellarmine held many Truths , which must not be rejected because he held them , and he gave for instance , that Christ is the Son of God. Moreover in p. 14. Thou writest thus ( viz ) the third Question debated on was ( though with much ado ) at length stated in these Termes ; wheth●● OUR good works are the meritorious cause of our justification ? and S. F. held it in the affirmative . S. F. T●us I prove it : to these words T. D. now you shew your self a Rank Papist indeed . Rep. Monstrum , Hor●endum , Informe , Ingens , cui lumen ademptum ! what a Horrible bundle of blindness is here ? what a hidden heap of Hocus p●cus ? this nasty piece of Na●●ative is , of itself , a little Lake of Lyes , and the whole is little better : under this Hedg are many Hedg-Hogs hidden , many Cockatrices hatched up , whose fruit is as a fiery 〈◊〉 Serpent , many false Tongues fed with fuell fit for them , many Fools fenced in their folly , as with a Thicket of Thornes , many Sons of Beli●● bolstred up in their Blasphemies , and emboldened to throw about in their madness Firebrands , Arrows & Death : Among these Nettles of thy planting T.D. do the Seed of the Serpent , the Generation of Vipers breed , make their nests , nourish up one another , and so securely shelter themselves under the shadow thereof , that like Adders and Scorpions they sting ( cum privilegio ) with their Tongues , and with their Tayles , not only shooting out misreports from their mouths , but leaving behind them , where ere they come , the fiery Darts of their Lying Tales , the deadly Poyson of which sets on fire the course of nature in virulent Spirits , and whole housholds on fire of Hell against the truth ; in which work , but that Truth is strong enough to stop , as well the Lyars , as the Lyons mouths , these Creatures of thy Creating could not quickly be controul'd , having now the Authority of thy Printed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to shew for their Abomination , and to back them in it , which , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like some Benefactor to their lying lips , thou hast , as a certaine Legend of Lyes , bestow'd upon them . It s but meet therefore , and more then time that some Reply be from me Return'd to these and other particulars of thy Legend for Truths sake , though else ( so far as my person alone , and abstract from that , is interessed therein ) I should ( God knows ) in whom I am hid as in a-Pavillion from the strife of tongues , please my self much more to sit down in silence ( as I have hitherto done under many other mens misreports of another nature ) under the Tumultuousness of the wicked , who are like troubled Raging Waves of the Sea , never at rest , but ever casting up Mire and Dirt , and foaming out against me their own shame , and thine also , whilst stirred up therto by the Stormy Wind of that malevolent Spirit , which from this and severall other Quarters of thy Book breaths out , and blowes upon them : ● yea did I not see the Truth , though vindicated against thee to the full by my foresaid friends R. H. G. W. suffering among some , where their writings have not come , for want of somewhat from my self , I should assuredly sit still , drinking in contentedly every dram of thy drassy discourse , under this thy Tempestuous showre , whilst it shatters it self down from thy black Inky Pen in such dirty droppings upon my head , or at most saying , as one dribling disputant used to say , no more then Quid tum ? to all that 's True , and Negatur id , to all that 's false , which ( though it be but a Ridiculous Reply ) yet would Rout it all , & were an Answer answerable enough to thy Ridiculous Reports , for that of thine , that 's True hath nothing in it so much as probably to prove what thou inferr'st from it , & that which is false in itself , as to the thing asserted , is fit for nothing but to be denyed , for from it much less can there either probably or possibly be inferred any truth ; For wheras they say of Propositions and premises , according as they regularly & legitimately , or Irregularly are disposed as to the outward forme thereof , thus ( viz ) Ex falsis falsum verum ●aliquando sequetur , Ex veris possit ●il nisi vera sequi ; So inverting the order say I of prepositions or premises according as they are true or false in their subject matter . Ex , veris verum falsum q●aliquando Sequetur , Exfalsis possi● nil nisi falsa sequi . Now therefore that Honest well meaning men and simple hearted people may be no more Guld and misguided by thy guilded Glosses in these particulars , as many have been , as well in these particulars concerning my single self , as in those aforesaid concerning both me & the Qua. in generall , and that the mouth of the Horse and Mule , ( ●cupiunt placere Magistro , utuntur diligentia , nec sunt tanti cessatores ut calcaribus indigeant ) which are forward enough and to fall on , and open in lyes , do not need thy Spur , may be held in from any more harming , as with Bit and Bridle ; in the Name of the Lord , though he that removeth the Stones , and breaketh the Hedg wh●re Serpents lodg , may look not only to be Hissed at for his paines , but also to be hurt , and bitten therewith , I shall bring down this Slight Wall , which thou hast built , and other diviners of Lyes dawb with their untempered Morter , Glorying therein as in some strong Tower , though it is but Rudis indigestaque moles , a Rock of meer Rubbish , and no more then a refuge of Lyes , that the foundation thereof may be discovered ; & , not bawlking for the bawlings , barkings and brabbles of any owners thereof , I shall break in upon this bushy brake of briars and Brambles , and lay the Axe to the Root of it , which is no better than Rottenesse it self , that its blossom may go up as the dust ; but I confesse were I not guided by a manifestation of that Spirit of God , of which thou lyingly sayest ver . 53. R. H. and G. W. had little of ( for t was by a plentiful measure of that Spirit of God , which Blasphemously thou callest a Spirit of Errour and Contradiction , by which they so hampered thee , that thou wast able with all thy R●ason to Resist it no otherwise their those , who resisted the same in Steven , Acts 6.9.10.11 . and not by that mother wit , to which thou a cribest it ) I should have been much to seek how to behave my self in the handling of these thy unhearn businesses , I mean thy two Narratives ( of which this parcel about the Qua. being probably Papists , and my self probably A Iesuit is a most remarka●le passage ) yea so over grown are they with lying words , and all manner of evill weeds , that as the bungling Barber for want of skill never left handling the deformed , over-grown Beard of a new Customer , of which he should have left some standing , till he had handled it all away ; so I should hardly have found any thing at all in them that 's worth sparing , the very truths that are therein , being told to as bad an end as the very Lyes : but wisdom is profitable to direct ; in that measure of which , that I , who am else ●a very fool , have received from above , and from him alone , out of whose mouth it cometh to all them , and them only , who wait for it thereat , I reject no more then that which is Refuse , and deal with these thy two Excrementitious matters , as men do with the most unprofitable and useless hair of Hogs and Swine , when they have to do with it ; viz. make use of so many of the best Bristles as will fit their own use , and singe the rest in the fire , or else sweep it all away into the Sink ; for that little of thy superfluous stories , which must be granted for true and serviceable , serves not thee , who re . latest it so well against me , as it serves me , against whom thou relatest it , against thy self . In disproof then of the Truth of thy A●ch-Assertion , or Accusation of me to be a Rank Papist , a Complyer with the Pope and Cardinals , and one that receive a Pension from him , which is the Top-stone of thy brittle building that I am to take down , and the Conclusion in proof of the probability whereof at least all the rest is alledged , I shall not ( as much Countryfied as I am ) be so Dunsical as to begin with the denial of the Conclusion , nor would my nay prevail against thy yea among thy Creditors , if I should ; but discover first the falseness , weakness , nakedness and inconsequences of the Premises , that every indifferent Reader may conclude the utter improbability of the truth of thy confident conclusion within himself , and remove the under stones , which thou lay'st for thy foundation , and among the rest , that of my holding some Doctrines held at Rome , which thou makest the very head of the Corner , that so the fore●aid Topstone may tumble down of it self . What is true among thy Premises , I shall own the Truth of , but deny the consequence thereof , as to that which by thee is from thence deduced : and what is false not only deny , but also deny the consequence of it if it were true . 1. That I have been at Rome , and there born my Testimony against the Pope and Cardinals ( in such wise ●as was required of me by the Lord who sent me ) who only ( and not I my self , as thou ( quippingly ) recitest that passage ) suffer'd them not to meddle with me , that I made light of thy charging me with Popery , and that I was at Dunkirk , and in discourse with the two men of Sandwich , T. Foxton and T. Barber at the time thou speakest of ; and that somewhat by me was spoken about Friars and Iesuits , holding some sound Doctrines , which some Protestant Priests deny , and somewhat about the non-necessity , or indifferency of the use of the things ye call Ordinances , where the substance , of which they were shadows , and to which as figures they pointed , was come in place , like as of a Candle where the Sun shines : and that I said , good Works ( intending Christs ) are the meritorious cause of our Iustification , and argued a contrariis to this effect , ( viz. ) Evil works are the meritorious cause of our condemnation , therefore good Works are the meritorious cause of our non-condemnation or Iustification ; all these Premises are own'd and thy elf also , Asserting thus far only of me , artown'd as standering me of no more then Truth : but quid hoc ad Rh●mbum ? all this yet is of no consequence as to thy deduction . And 2. As to all the Rest , ( viz. ) my having Bils of Exchange to and from Constantinople to Rome , and my Broaching Doctrines that are not only theirs , but a fair inlet to their Bag and Baggage , and my saying to T. F. and T. B. at Dunkirk , in those very Terms thou settest down ( v●z . ) that I looked upon the Iesuits and Friars there , to be sounder in Doctrine , then those ye call the Reformed Churches , and that I my self am above Ordinances , and that I have great Bils of Exchange , from a Quaking London-Merchant ( as thou quippest it out again ) and that the Terms of the third Question , which I held in the Affirmative , were whether OUR good Works ( viz. ) done by us only , and not by Christ in us ) are the meritorious cause of our Iustification , and that I undertook to prove it under tho●e Terms of OUR Good Works ( in thy sense ) its all as false to the full , as the other is tru● , but if it were every whit as true , as it is utterly false , yet would not thy Conclusion ( viz. that I have a Pension , or am in pay from the Pope ) follow from it so much as probably , as thou dotest , much less so necessarily , as throw their dotage upon thy Do-little Disputings , many Ignorant ones , of thy instructing , do as ordinarily , as ignorantly infer it ; the falsehood of that which is false , and the inconsequence of both that which is true , and that which is false , and the utter invalidity of what is false , in case it were never so true , to prove thy Charge against me of complying with , or having pay from the Pope , I shall yet a little more particularly explain . 1. Then that I have been at Rome , and that in a double sense , is true enough : first spiritually , and mystically , when I was but a Protestant at large , and so born and bred , as English people for the most part still are , I then dwelt together with them and you National Ministers and Parishpay-Preachers , in the Suburbs and out-works of that Great City Rome , or Mystery Babylon the Great , the Papacy , the Arch-Whore , and Mother of her Daughters , the two younger Harlots , Prelacy and Presbyterie , that are both separated from her bowels , and as like her in many matters ( viz. ) persecution for conscience , sucking Saints blood , greediness of gain , Lording it , by a Lordly Clergy , over the true Clergy or Heritage of God , Parish-pay of the Popes first Imposing , Parish-Church Posture of his Constituting , Traditional Infant-Sprinkling , and sundry other Romish Remnants , and Relicks of Romes Religion yet abiding unabandoned , and al●o pleaded for ) as one kind of Christ'n Creatures , that are unlike to Christ himself , can be to each other ; and as a Pair of young smooth-faced Sisters , — Qu●bus facies non omnibus una est , nec diversa tamen , can well look like so old and wither-fac'd a Mother ; in the said Suburbs and out-works of which said Great City , which once was in one Room , but before its Ruin stands divided into three P.P. Parts , canina utentes facundia , barking and concar●ing together by the ears with one another , and like some old Bawd and her two B●ats B●awling and breaking each other to pieces about their Bastardy , ye dwell to this day , not only being in the same inward , but in somethings also in the same outward form and Image , while ye hold your Pontifical Orders , by vertue of which you so Pope it in your Parishes , from such Presbyters , as had theirs from the Prelate , who had theirs from the Arch-Prelates , who had theirs from the Pope by lineal succession , who had his , as the great Whore hath , Rev. 17. from the Beast that bears her , who Rev. 13. had his from the Devil or Dragon , who whether he had his Power , Seat , and great Authority from Peter or no , Credat Apella . 2. That I have been bodily in Rome literally , so cal'd , * as I did not , so I do not deny , and that ( as its evident , by what of mine is extant against the C.C. Clergy , I have done here ) so I bore my witness against the Pope and Cardinals there , in such wi●e as I was cal'd to do , I might make manifest here , were I so minded , but need not fo●asmuch as ( though We●●hercock-like , thou pre●ently upon it go'st about to deny , and disprove it again , as unprobable ) yet thou seemest first both to believe and prove it to be probable thy self , for thou saist , the Qua , did Report it of me , and thou supposest they would not bely me ; and that I am since in safety from their hands , thy self hast seen , i● thou canst believe thine own eyes ; but what of all this ? doth all or any of this Minister to you Ministers , who make so much of it that way , any Just matter of crime , whereupon to accuse me at all , or any matter of probable proof of so high a crime , as ye and your self-like people are ever charging me with , of complying with , and of being in orders and pay from the Pope ? Among many hundreds of Iews , the Truth hath been Testified to openly in their Synagogues and streets of their Cities , in Rome , and el●ewhere , and yet being in safety from them hath been witnessed ; the Truth hath been Testified in Turkie , yea by the Power of God to some great Bashaws , and to the very Grand Seg●ior himself , and his Councell , by some of the Servants and Hand-maids of the Lord , on whom , in these dayes he pours out of his Spirit , who by the same Power of God have with such re●pectful usage , as will shame England Old and New especially , if it look not to it in time , been dismissed peaceably from their presence ; doth this prove the Qua. complyance in their several Superstitions with either the Iews or Turks Respectively ? I trow not : yet Heu quam facile est invenire baculum ad caedendum canem ? when men have once an ill name ( as the Proverb is ) they are half hang'd , so that evil shall be ever charged upon them for doing good ; when for being Christ friends , they become enemies to the world , who hates him , and for his sake are hated as a dog , how easie is it for the worlds own children , not only to find a quarrel against them , but a cudgel also to beat them at their pleasure ? For mark how matter of Accusation it self is made by our Priests of our having been at Rome , and declaring there against Popery , and under that Protection , we went out in , returning safe again into England , which is now laid to me as a Crime , witness thy words , ( viz. ) T.D. As to the matter of which S.F. was accused , part of it he denied not , namely tha he had been at Rome . Rep. Had I been executed there , as I might have been , if the Lord had not kept me , it had satisfied some Parish Preachers and others here very well , who though they seemed to congratulate my well coming home , yet were more merry when they heard I was hang'd or hew'd to pieces ; but now I am as well , as some smooth tongues seem to wish me , t is hardly well with them , while it s well with me ; so that if they had advantage would not be slack to make use thereof to have execution against me here : so that I may safely say , Lord , where should the Witnesses of thy Truth be safe , or have a quiet Being if not in thee ; who when they go into other Nations , are in danger to lose their lives as Hereticks and Church-wasters , and when they return , if the malice of their own Counmen might be permitted to prevail , are in perils of being hang'd nearer home , as I●suits or such as are in pay and orders from the Pope ; while 't was both heard and hoped , I were never likely to come safe back again from out of the paw of that Romish Ro●r●ng Lyon , 't was counted no crime by the Clergy , even at Rome it self , to bear Testimony against it , but sith it s seen I had no harm there , it must be thence granted that I did some , and that a mans being there only , is Crime enough to be accus●d on , and not only so , but some eminent evidence of such another high crime as by the Law , as it yet stands , were it made good against me , cals for no less then handling with an English halter : so ( in Summe ) say some of our English Seminaries , whose voice is smooth as Iacobs , but their hands ever rough as the hands of Esau. 2. But be it as high a Crime as it will for such as here protest against the Pope to visit Rome , I can do so much good at least against their Evil , as to excuse my cheif accusers , and as candidly to clear our Clergy of it , as several of them continually are charging me therewith ; yea I am perswaded , that our English Clergy are as Clear in their consciences from the guilt of that Crime , and as fearful of that fault , and as free from the thoughts of Committing such a thing as travelling to Rome to tell the Truth , as they are far from it in their Persons , while they are preaching against it in their Parishes : and as they are far from consenting to it , and calling for it that the Iews may come into England , in order to their coming to the Truth , for whose coming to it , they are always calling upon God. There is little posting to preach abroad by these fixed Stars , the stand stiff like Posts in their own places : let those wandring Stars say they ( not considering that the Vagabonds and wandring Stars to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever , are such as wander with Cain from the light of God , and not to and fro to preach the Gospel ) let the Qua. gad about and gang to Rome , or where they will , wee 'l be none of their gang ; and as for money there 's little need for them to Run so far as Rome for pay , to receive his pensions from the Pope himself , having it nearer home . It is enough for our Parochial Priesthood to Receive the Romish pay of Parsonages , Vicaradges , Curateships , Glebe-lands , Tithes , add other of Romes Bonifaces Benefices , and Benedictus's Blessings in their native Nation , and have the Popes Pensions and their part of Peters Patrimony for preaching against the Pope , and Peter too in the Popes old mouldy Mass-houses to his own Parochially moulded Churches . It s enough for them to abide here , praying down Antichrist , and praying home the Iews , and preaching against the Qua. while they go out against him , as siders with , and upholders of him as much as against Antichrist himself , and cry out against those that go out ( as the Lord moves ) to cry in the Iews , as one with the I●ws ( for so I. O. saith the Qua. are ) in enmity to the Scripture , and as wor●e then the very Iews themselves . O Lord God forgive , cease this I bessech thee , by whom shall Iacob arise , for he is yet small , by whom shall the Romane Antichrist fall , for he is yet great ; when such as call themselves , thy Messengers , will neither go on thy errand or message themselves , nor quietly suffer tho●e Messengers of thine , that are made willing to it by thy power , but are still-crying out to thee to bring down Antichrist , and bring in the Iews , and yet crying out against those , that go out , as from thee , to bring in the one , and bring down the other ? But by this time I suppose , that as the true Israel and Clergy that is of God , do little less then abhorre to see it , so some of their own folds do smile more then they 'l seem to do , to hear their Clergy calling and sounding out to God in their sundry Synagogues , Lord discover the Skirts of that Scarlet Whore of Rome , and yet not renouncing , but reverencing the Reliks , and doing homage to the very hem of it to this day , and hating those as her friends , and their enemies , that seek to Rent it all along as far as from Rome it self to the very scarlet Rags and Remnants thereof , that are yet remaining in their own Nation and Universities . Gather in thy ancient people the Iews , and yet neither going out to gather the Iews ; nor giving way to the Iews , when they would , to gather so much as into England , that they might be gathered to the Lord ; Let thy Gospel run and be glorified , when yet it may run far enough , before these lovers to sleep in a whole skin are free to follow in the service of it , any further then they can serve their own interest by it , and make more gain of it to themselves . Though then such as viam vel invenient , vel facient , & Flectere fi nequeunt superos , Acheronta movebunt . If they cannot fairly find it , as from God , will rather Rake H●ll and Skim the Devil ( as the Proverb is ) then want wherewith to accuse the Servants of the Lord , do make it a matter of Accusation for them to have been at Rome , and matter of Argumentation to that greater evil of complying with , and receiving Pension from the Pope , to bear any witness safely against him there , yet is there no Just ground whereon to make either a matter of fault of the one , or a matter of faith of the other : and howbeit that faithless generation of men cal'd Ministers , who fear to follow Christ any further then he feeds them aforehand with full assurance of life , and outward livelihood , believe it well nigh impossi●le , at least improbable to come safe from Rome , without complying with the Antichristian Faction , and I my self , who know more then they of this , will yield thus much to them , that to such as consult with flesh and blood in themselves , or in fleshly friends ( whose councel had we heeded , when we were more then half way towards Rome , we had certainly either not gone thither , or not Return'd without that complyance ) it s not a little unlikely ; whereupon we were all the way deliver'd up unto death within ourselves , and by our selves Counted as sheep for the slaughter , that were marching into the very month of the Lyon , yet so far is this from being of force to infer what thou in thy fleshly fancy fetcheft from it , ( viz. ) a probability of our Complyance with that Popish faction , that to a true spiritual understanding an evident Argument it is rather of a more then ordinary hand of providence held over us , and of another kind of presence , protection and powers being with and upon us in our obedience to God , who sent us in that service ( to whose Name only , and not at all to us , for ever be the glory of it ) then that which you witness in your self-saving , self-serving , and easie exercise , sith in his Name , Spirit , light Power , dread and fear , we not only undertook , but were kept safe'in the undertaking of that , which your selves neither dare , nor can believe , ye can likely do without your own ruin and destruction ; and some of this I declared openly at the dispute to thee , T. D. and all the rest , and much more would I have declared in satisfaction to that Auditory , when the foresaid Accusation was under consideration , but that , to the shame of your small Patience in a thing that so neerly concern'd thy self and them , ye utterly refus'd to hear me clear my self , and the truth to the full in that particular ; which had ye heard me out in , ye had hindered that your hasty stumbling at me , whereby ye also are fallen into your printed folly , which is now making manifest to all men ; but now ye have judg'd neither Rightly , because rashly without hearing all that was to be heard on either side , nor yet the right thing , but a very lye ; for I am no Sidesman with the Papists , and if I were , yet you judging me , after you had refused to to hear me , are unjust nevertheless in so doing : for Qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera , Aequum licet statuerit , ●aud ●quus fuerit . But alas as thou T. D. sayst p. 53. not more proverbially , then improperly of R. H. I must say properly of thee and thine , who so bold as blind Byard ? in a land of uprightness , ye will judge and deal unjustly , and will not behold the Majesty of the Lord ; when the hand of the Lord is lifted up , ye will not see , but ye shall see and be ashamed of your envy at his people , the fire of your own envy shall devour you : But thou O Lord wilt ordain peace for us , for thou also hast wrought all our works in us , Isa. 26.10 , 10 , 11 , 12. Glory , Glory be to thy holy Name therefore for Ever . Thus far as to the inconsequence of one of T. D's . Arguments , to prove me to be a Pensioner to the Pope , and a Complyer with him , and his Cardinalls at Rome , the Antecedent of which ( viz. ) that first , I was at Rome , secondly bare my witnesse against them there , thirdly came away safe , is not onely true , but trebble , yet not strong enough to draw on his heavy lead'n conclusion . But T. D. being loath to venture the whole stresse of his cause upon so slender a Trebble string as that , hath many more strings yet to his bow , with all which notwithstanding he shoots too short to hit the mark ; though , if that will do him any advantage , I shall strengthen his weak and brittle Fidling strings , as well as I can by twisting two or three more of them together . Next then I shall try what can be made of these concurrences , ( viz. ) first , my having no vissible estate . secondly my having as good Bills of Exchange as most Gentlemen ( as he calls them , though I call all men so that are so Gentle as not to backbite , and no more so save such as will not ) that travail , in my late travail to Constantinople , and from thence to Rome . Thirdly , My now having great Bills of Exchange from a Quaking London Merchant , so that I may take up 400 l. if I will. That this Triune Antecedent may be of the more Credible uncontroleaable and unconquerable force to draw men into a beleef of the conclusion , there is not T. D.'s bare ipse D●xit only for it , b●t each thread of it is backt ore again from breaking by the Credibility of the Testimony that attends it ; the first ( quote he ) is well known , as if it needed no proof , being of it self obvious to all men ; the second he hath from very good hands ; the third , the two Credible men of Sandwich ( who yet have crackt their Credit so with me , that I shall hardly heed them again in hast ) were Credibly informed of it as Dunki●k ; this looks like some threefold Cord that is not easie to be broken ; yet for all this , all this will be found but as Toe towards T. D.'s business for to say the Truth , it s but a meer Trinity of Tales , and not of Truths . 1. ( whether it be better or worse the more honour , or the more shame for me that I so have , it best concerns my self to examine ; for , as it was best of all with him , who while the Foxes had holes , and fowls of the Aire nests , had not where to lay his head ; so t' was well enough with them that had , and may be with such as now have ( if they find their call is so , to leave all and follow Christ ) neither scrip nor sh●s , nor mony in their purses , and no more then the Cloaths to their backs , for they lacked nothing , yet so it is and well known to my selfe , and some ( as well known as 't is to T.D. and his Earewigs that I have none ) that , though my estate lyes much more in invisibles , then in visibles , I have some visible estate ; and that to the full as much for my self and mine , as I either need or much desire ; and how beit I have not perhaps so much as T.D. nor as I.O. who besides that rich possession he counts upon in his Hebrew Punctation ( of which more anon ) had lately ( but now I hear he is turned out of it ) a Deanry of many hundreds , per annum , yet est mihi far modicum purum et sine labe Salinum : humilique loco sed certa cedet sordida parvae fortunae domus . And that I have no more then I have , it is ( under God ) at my own choice , having long since , for a good Conscience sake , laid down twice more then that which comes in to thee T.D. by preaching , and refufed the profer of much more since , both of that and of another nature , and , if I had none at all , I need not run to Rome , having , were I so mindfull of such outward estate as I came out of , an opportunity still to return , and being , if I could make shipwrack of the Faith for it , as many do , & were as much given to Climbing & Clambering , as most of you are , as capable to receive in England , either that Popish pay , and preferment ye still stand in , and I freely fell from , as ye yet are , or as my self ever have been in dayes of old , or that of another sort , that is in no wise of the Pope , which yet I trust I shall chuse pulse and water rather then forgo the truth , as some self-seekers do , to partake in Secondly , How Credible ●oever it is here asserted by thee for truth , as a thing received from ve●y go●d H●rds , yet 't is not true that is here related , for I had no Bill of Exchange at all with me when I went out of England , neither had I ever any Bill of Exchange from any place at all to Constantinople , nor any at all from Constantinople to Rome , and this I leave to tho●e very good hands , from whence thou had it this false report , to make it good I partly guess what ground this guilty goodly geere grew up from , but I am not minded at this time to help Lyars in their Lyes , while ●●ee they love them , let them help one another , and wrestle themselves out from the mists of their own misreporting , & from the f●gge of this piece of f●lshood , if they can ; I f●nd no more to do at pre●ent , then to deny it to be truth , as it s told by them . Thirdly , How credibly soever the same witnesses , T. F. T. B. whom thou callest Honest and Credible men , were Credibly inf●rmed at Dunkirk , that I have , yet I neither had at D●nkirk , nor have had since , nor yet have ( what I may have , lawfully enough , if need be , is another case , but nothing to thee nor thy ill cause , nor to any man el●e but those , that , as little Estate as I have , being con●●dent of my faithfullness , dare trust me so farr ) any bill of Exchange at all , by which to ●ake up 400 ● or 400 pence either at my will : which faltering of thy so G●●d , Honest , and Credible Witness●s in each Tittle of their Testimony , that is exhibited to the world in this Tripple piece of Tittle Tartle , from which yet thou concludest the things they testifie to be ipso facto ) well known , I notifie to the world so much the rather , as I have done here ( or else I should for my own part have pay'd it with thinking only , and let it pass ) that men may know the better how to beleive thee and them in other things , when ye shall happen with lyes to wrong the truth another time . But since I have taken on me to take ●o much notice of it , let 's examine what to the utmost can be made thereof ; which is just nothing at all towards T. Ds. purpose in propounding it ; in omuch that I may truly say of this his Treble conference , of which his confidence is , that it s so credible , that it gives neither le●s nor more , then almost an incredible and inconceiveable influence towards the inference of his most confident , and almost as incredible conclusion , so that no wise men can , yea the most wise men are , the le●s they can from T. Ds. premi●es give credit to it , or conceive it , or not conceive rather the contrary to be true ; for as from such matters as are false ( as I said above ) no thing that is true can be concluded , in which respect alone these lyes and lying Fables can be of no possible force to inferr my living upon the P●pes P●ns●on to be a Truth , so if they were all as undoubted and certaine Truths , as 't is most certain they are all but sigm●nts , or at the best but , m●s● eports , they could none of them at all inferr that , but some of them would inferr the very contrary to that , which T.D. with so much confidence concludeth from them , to the deluding of all people , that are given over to delusion to beleive lyes , to beleive that lye of me , that I am , in pay from the Pope , as the Iews by the like unlikely and silly inference of the Souldiers , whom the Priests so to Argue against it , were deluded from believing that Truth concerning Christ ( viz ) that he arose from the dead . Oh how Wonderfully Michievous are misreports unto the Truth , when men , who receive not the love of it , that they may be ●aved , are given over of God to give heed to them , that they may be damned , because they take pleasure in unrighteousness , and have no pleasure in the Truth ? His Di●ciples say they came and stole him away while we slept , here is the fictitious and forcible Antecedent , therefore he arose not from the dead , here is the crooked conclusion , which that other was so cogent to make the people close with in their Consciences , and take for Truth . Piteous Premis●● , plain enough to be ●een by men , whose eyes were not out , to be meerly forged and of little force ; For if they were awake , and on their watch , as 't was fit for a Court of Guard to be , they might have rescued him from his Disciple , that were unarmed men , but if they were asleep , as they say they were , is the Testimony of those men fit to be entertaind for Truth , or of force among any but such infatuated fancies , as every ignis fatuus befooles into a following of it self , wheresoever it goes before them , that stand up to beare witness of what was done while they were asleep ? yet how strongly and strangely did this filly shift work upon the misbeleiving faculty of that foolish Nation , to the finall falsifying of their Faith , in so high an Article of it ? insomuch that as that Saying is commonly Reported , so that Article of Christs Resurrection is thereupon not beleived to this day , said the Evangelists 16 hundred years ago , and say I , who have been an Eare Witness of the same , to this very day , wherein we live . The like effectual operation upon the prejudicate opinions and Imaginations of such people , to whom there is deceptio visus , and in whose visible faculty there 's a deep defect through their living in the Night , and not loving the Light , hath T. D's . mis-reports , and mis-representations of the Qua. going to Rome , which as little or no truth as they are of , yet ( if less then none can be ) are of less consequence to prove that he intends by them to be Truth , sith of force to prove the very contrary . S. F. Quoth he , hath no visible Estate , hath Bills of Exchange to take up 400 l. if he will , had to and from Constantinople to Rome Bills of Exchange to take up money there . Therefore 't is probably as true that he there receiv'd a Pension from the Pope . His Tripartite Antecedent is as false , as the Popes Tripple Crown is foolish , but suppose it were all as True , as 't is false , I know no hurt in it , if it were , for such as Travail , whether to Rome , or elsewhere , to have Bills to take up money if they need it ; and what I had , or where , or from whence , or from whom , let him that lyes go look , yet ●ile tell the truth to him so farr at least , as will tell his Tale to be a Lye ; I had none to Constantinople , nor from thence to Rome , neither Received I any money by any Bill at Rome , much less any Pension from the Pope , which is that he makes the consequent of the other ; so that T. D.'s . Consequence is utterly inconsequent , and a most non-sensicall non sequitur . Some wise man , that had been willing to know the Truth , would have argued thus ad Contrarium ( viz. ) He went with coals from New-Castle to London , therefore 't is very probable he went not to London to fetch or to get any there . He carried great Bills with him to Rome , to take up mony there , therefore 't is utterly unlikely that he had any Pension of his own to Receive there from the Pope , for then he might have sav'd his labour in the other . For verily it had been as silly and superfluous for me to have Merchants Bills to take up mony by at Rome , had I had a Pension to Receive there from the Pope as 't is ( as the Proverb is ) to carry coals to New-Castle , which what fool doth , may carry them home again , when he hath done . So then this Text of T. D's Triviall Talk , as threefold a Cord , as it may seem to him , that is not quickly broken , is indeed , though strong enough to conclude the clean contrary way , yet , as to his purpose , but a threefold thread of Toe so ill spun , that it fails like flax , when it feels the fire . Nevertheless Note one Point of Doctrine more , before I quit it , that arises from it more against , then for T. D. and his fellow forgers , and foul falsifiers of the truth , i.e. that whereas the National Ministry dare trust to the benevolence of their own people for outward means and maintenance , no further then they have the Magistrates Mittimusses to take it from their people , and raise it for them , for we may have little enough , and do full ill ( cry they ) if we stand to the good will and affections of our Parishes , being it seems ( for all the shallow shews , and Love-tokens , and fair words that pass between them , which buy no lands ) as little affected by their people , as their people are trusted by them , for each of them love money , much more then they love each other ; yet such love , credit , and confidence in each others faithfulness , there is among the Ministers of Truth , and the children of it ; that they , that for the Gospels sake , chuse to have little of their own in their Ministry to it , need not lack , but serving it for its own sake , and not for hire , nor by constraint , but willingly , not for filthy lucre , but of a ready mind , may , not by force of Arms , but freely , not by the greedy distraint of Tythe-mongers and Bumbayliffs , but willingly , have what is needed ( which is not so many 100's by the year as the Priests , that , stirring not far from their own fires , need it not , are ever needing ) in the service of the truth ; and rather then it shall want promoting for lack of so much , no less then 400 li at once , if they please . T. D. Another of T. D's Antick Autecedents from whence he endeavours ( as by the rest he doth tooth and nail ) to evidence me to be of the Popish faction , is , that I affirmed my self to be above Ordinances , saying , there 's no more use of them in this life to some , then of a Candle , when the Sun shines , instancing in Baptism and the Lords Supper . Rep. In which Antecedent , this is utterly false at least , ( though affirmed by T. D. and his Sides-men ) ( viz. ) that I said of my self , that I am above Ordinances : I use not to bear Testimony to my self , but to the Truth , unless where the Truth is so much concern'd ( as it is in my clearing of my self from the clouds , that not only I , but that also comes under through your Lyes that are told , and attend me in the service of it , in the case in hand ) neither in the point of perfection ( which if I be but moved to speak the Truth in , presently cry the blind leaders , and the blind whom they lead , he faith he is perfect ) did I ever say of my self , that I am perfect , but of myself and alme● , that so we should be , even in this life , and may be too , if we be not wanting to our selves , and must be also , or else shall never be , as our heavenly Father is perfect ; and as for my self by the grace of God , I am what I am , and what ere I am , where I am , you are not , though what , and where you are , both as to this wo●ld , and that to come , I have been now long ago : Neither as to Ordinances , did I ever say I was above them , I should not a little bely my self in so ●aying , and that I have little need at all to do , being bely●d mo●e then enough already both by your selves , and others ; for to meet and wait with his Saints on the Lord , to stand in his Councel , and receive his word from his mouth , to learn of Christ in silence with all subjection , to hear his voice , which his sheep only hear , though swinish Scribes may search the Scriptures , to enter by him , who is the Door , to bear hi● Cu●●● , and follow him , to pray , preach , write , dispute , and do all , that I am cal'd to , in the l●ght , in the movings of his Spirit , the●e all , and an hund●ed more , that might be nam'd , are Ordinances of God , which I am under , and yourselves above , who are clambering up another way in your own thoughts , counc●ls , wisd●m , and understanding above his light in the conscience , that is the Door , which till Ye lofty over-lookers of it , the flying fowls of the air , the h●gh-flown Climbers above , vouchsafe to stoop , and come down to , ye shall never enter into the Sheepfold ; finally a holy life , and that pare Religion , that is undefiled before God ( while all the Religion of imture unbridled Lya●s , Wantons , Wordlings , &c stinks before him , and is defiled ) which is to keep a mans self unspotted of the world , also to do Good works , to be zealous of Good Works , to be rich in good works , to be w●ll reported of for good works , to shew our selves Paterns of good works , to learn to maintain , be careful to maintain good works , as necessary , which ●ome ( because O V R works , none of which are good , the best of which are all evil , further then wrought in Christ the light , and by Christ in us , are of none ) would make of none effect , as to our acceptance with God , and to walk in the good works , which in Christ Iesus , who●e workma●sh●p we are , we are created unto , which God hath before Ordained , that we should walk in them , Eph. 2. 10. the●e are Ordinance of God , which 't were well for you all , if you were as much under the observance of , as ye are under the obliui●n of , which I neither did , nor do , nor dare say I am above , though as I desire I never may , so by the grace and power of Christ to me ward , I do not live so far below them , as Thousands do , who are both above , and below them also , too proud of their fine forms to be brought down to the plain power , and too much sunk down over head and ears in earth , lust , luxury , love of money , pleasure , wordly-mindedness , and buried in blindness , brutishness , and sensuality to be brought up , and rais'd into any heavenliness of conversation , yet all crying out of them as denyers of Gods Ordinances , that live in the very life and substance of those lifeless Images and shadowy parts thereof , which they only call so . I affirm therefore here before God , and all men , that I never affirmd of my self in these Terms , in which its here Testifi●d ( viz. ) that I was above Ordinances ; and for thy self T.D. and thy two witnesses to it , T.F. and T.B. who are three Thomas'es , very fa●thl●●● , and hard to believe the truth , and for your faithlesness , as hardly to be believed , whether you will believe me , yea or nay , as its false that you here witne●s , so the witness of all three of you against me in this , will be of no more force to fright any friends of Truth into the faith or belief of what you say , then so many leaps of a louse , since ye are found deceiving , or at best deceived in your other so credible information . And as for the things ( viz. ) Baptism and the Supper , which yourselves call Ordinances , and keep such a quarter for , as if they were the main matters which God hath O●dained , which only can lay true claim to the foresaid Title , I might possibly say then , as I shall plainly now , not in any way of 〈◊〉 whate●er is of God , though but as a Type and shadow in its time and season , that to such as are grown throw those Elementary institutions , into the Life of God , which is the end , and substances they Relate to , they may be usele●s , as to their own particulars , as the light of a Candle , is where the Sun shines ; yet I deny not the use of them to such , as are not satisfied as to the Lord , unless they use them : But most people either I abu●e them and themselves in the use of them , who neither knowing their right end , nor use , nor manner of administration , do either chan●e and alter them into Images of their own making , both in their Subject and their form ; and thus all Rantizers of Infants do , and all feeders of Dogs and Swine with that bread and wine , which they call the Supper , for these things are not that outwa●d washing and supping , which were used of old , as meer figures and Images of the true , but sigments and fooleries , and Images of their own Imagining , not ●o much as the Bodily Baptism , which I●hn baptizeth with , but a trashy T●adition of man , which who so teach for a Doctrine or Ordinance of God , do worship God but in vain , not the true outside or shadow of the Supper ( for that is not a coming together into one place ) which is to decrease and vanish before the internal and ●ternal , which increa●eth , and is to stand ; nor the external sign of the True Cup and Table of the Lord , but in Truth the very Cup and Table of Devils , where drunkards and Swerers , Lustfulness , and all sorts of sinners , and walkers beside the light , who say they have fellowship with God , but lye . and have none , sit in fellowship with their Father the Devil . Or else secondly , dote upon and Idolize those graven Images of their own , which if they were as truly the things in use of old , as 't is true , they are but new inventions of their own , yet , as the brazen Serpent , they must be but Nehush●an , when once mens hearts go a whoring after them , from that , which is the end of them all , and come not to Christ Iesus the Image , and rigteousness of God , and to witnesse that wrought , and even him , who is that Image , brought forth and formed in them ; but continue poring upon those Rudiments , or , like one that falls in love with his own Image in the water , and for love thereof goes down under it , and drownes himselfe therein , run down so deep into them , as to lose themselves from the other , and draw such a thick vaile over their hearts ( as the Iewes ) so as not to look , much lesse enter into the end of the law of , which is to be abolished , that is of carnall Commandments , contained in Ordinances , which are not of the new , but of the old Covenant which is long since ready to vanish , which stood in earings and drinkings , and divers Baptismes , carnall Ordinances , bodily exercises , outward Observations , in which the Kingdome of God stands not , which is in righteousnesse , peace , and joy in the holy Spirit , so that he who in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men . For those meer Rites and Rudiments of washing , eating , drinking had their first being , beginning , rise , and institution ( as Circumcision , Passeover , sacrifices and such like had ) before Christ was crucified , though in regard of inability to beare the sudden abol●tion thereof by permission more then commission practised after , as circumcision , and vowes , and shavings , and some other Rite ; and Ceremonies were , in which case if any now will needs u●e them , I meddle not to forbid , * though he that is in the spirit and substance and not the letter of them is not out of them , but in them more truly , then he that is in them outwardly according to the letter , and not in the spirit : for they are the Iewes , the circumcision , the Christians , the baptiz'd ones , the Suppers with the Lord , the partakers of his Table , who open when Christ knocks , and let him in , that he may Sup with them , and they with him , who rejoyce in Christ Iesus , and have no confidence in the flesh and worship God in the spirit , and are Jewes in heart and spirit , not letter onely , when they of the letter are but the Concision , that say they are Iewes , Christians , Baptists , Communicants with God , children of God , but lye and are not , but are the Synagogue of Satan : the end of which foresaid outward Commandments is love out of a pure heart , a good conscience , faith unfained , which who serve in are the servants of God , and who swerve from , and turn aside into ●angling about the other , and are zealous in teaching up the Law , understand neither themselves , nor what they say , nor doe , nor whereof they affirme , and are but of the Gentiles , that dwell in the outward Court , which is given to them , who tread down the holy Citty ; nor in the inward Temple , nor of them that worship therein , not to be counted thereunto , but left out , and not measured , when the measuring line goeth out upon it to build , and rear it up again in the latter dayes . So then though I deny all the Ordinances , Traditions , and Doctrines , Wayes , and Worships of men , innovated , and impos'd at their wills , as praecepts of God , yet I deny not the due use of any thing , that ever was in meer outside service required and appointed of God himself , when performed in its proper place , and season , from a right Principle of inward power , to the right end , which they lead , and tend to ( viz. ) Christ Iesus the head , the body of those shadows , the Image of God , begotten and born , not after the Law of a Carnal Commandment , but after the Power of an endless life ; after which Image when men witness themselves to be truly created in righteousness , and holiness of truth , they will see how these pass away , as to the use thereof , as the Moon in a morning waxes pale , and dies out , as to its shining any more before the Sun ; as the lesser which must give way to the greater glory , which lesser things , while men busie themselves in , and boast of , crying the Temple of the Lord , are these , the Tythes , Offerings , New-moons , the Sabbaths , the solemn Assemblies , the Sacrifices , the Circumcision , the Passeover the Baptism , the Supper , the Services , the Ordinances of the Lord are these , neglecting the weightier matters , the washing , and circumcising their hearts to the Lord , the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , putting away the evil of their doings from before Gods eyes ; not minding , but forgetting , breaking the everlasting , visible life , way , righteousness , kingdom , House , Temple , Gospel , Glory , Covenant , which the Letter lays down , as that which all these Ceremonies ( so call'd of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from their standing but for a time ) and all these meer Temporals do but tend to , the Lord loaths all that , which was even of his own requiring , the more men load him with it , that love not-the other , and says he required it not , he spake not of it , he would have none of it , he could not away with it , his delight is not so much in it , as in obeying , his saul hates it , he is weary to bear it , 't is the offering of Swines blood , 't is the cutting off a Dogs neck 't is as acceptable to him , as if one slew a man , 't is the blessing of an Idol , 't is but a trusting in lying words , when trusted in , 't is an apron of fig-leaves , 't is a covering of Idols , 't is a righteousness that shall not profit him , 't is a refuge of lyes , which the hail shall sweep away , 't is a hiding place which the storm shall overflow , by which shall be trodden down even all you that are hidden in it , 't is a Covenant and agreement with death and hell , the Drunkards of Ephraim make , which must be disannul'd , and not stand , 't is a bed shorter then that a man can stretch himself on it , 't is a covering too narrow for a man to wrap himself in it , 't is a House on the sand , and not on the Rock of Ages , the fall of which on the head of the builders will be great , when the wind of the Lords Spirit comes to blow upon it , 't is flesh that must wither then as the grass and the flower of it , 't is Ashur and Jareb that can't cure Israels wounds , 't is Pharoah the broken reed that runs into the hand of the leaners thereon , 't is the Egyptians and their horses , which are men and flesh , not God nor Spirit ; 't is the many mountains in which salvation is hoped for in vain , 't is not the right Rest to the soul , 't is the polluted rest , which , who ever is in , and first or last ariseth not above , and departs not out of , it will destroy him with a sore destruction ; 't is iniquity , 't is dung , which God will spread upon mens faces , who live like Swine , yet will wallow in it , even the dung and iniquity of their solemn meetings . How untrue then thy Testimony is , of my saying I was above Ordinances , who am one that am under Water-Baptism , being once baptized , as the Sprinklers of Infants never were , if there were any ground of glorying in , or any stress to be put upon that , and have also used Bread and wine , ( till Christ , who now cometh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in myriads of his Saints , came in me ) as few Parish Preachers do , that prattle for that Supper , though Christ be not yet come in them , as he will ere long come nigh to judgement ; I suppose all ( save such Simplerous as either will see , or at least seem to see nothing save what their Seers see ) may more easily discern then be ignorant : But suppose it were all as true that 's here told by you three Thomasses , would it follow at all from hence that I probably comply with the Pope , and his faction , or would it not rather free me among all ( save such as if they cannot by Hooke , will needs have it so by Crooke ) from all suspition of such complyance , more then such as cry out for Ordinances with the Pope ? yea more for meere mans Ordinances too , then for Gods ( viz. ) that of sprinkling , and Ordinances for Tribes , and maintenance , as his Priests do ? Is 't not a far clearer consequence to urge thus ( viz. ) the Parish Priestshood of England pleads for Ordinances , yea for the Parliments Ordinances , the Popes Ordinances for Tribes , and other things pertaining to their divine service , and their worldly Sanctuary , as the Pope and his Priesthood doth , therefore they smell so much of Popery still , that its suspitious they side too much with them still . As for me and the Quakers , if any but meere partiall and unreasonable minded men , who had thought we had utterly denyed Ordinances ( as yee judge we doe ) would have argued any thing at all from those thoughts of his concerning us , he would ( however minded to bely us in other matters ) have clear'd us from that censure of Popery at least , by concluding from T. D's . premises the very contrary to what he infers : and instead of urging with him , he ●aith he is above Ordinances , and denies the use of them , therefore I can assure the Reader of the likelyhood of his complyance with the Antichristian saection , * would have urged thus ( viz. ) he saith he is above Ordinances ; denyeth the use of them , ( viz. ) Baptisme and the Supper ; therefore I may assure the Reader , that there 's little or no likelihood at all of his Complyance with the Pope , and his Antichristian faction , for they are not above those Ordinances , but under the use of them . Yea ( I adde ) they are so far under indeed , that is below and beneath , the true use of Gods Ordinances , that they are not yet ( as neither are yee ) got above the traditionary Ordinances of man , but are all groping together in the dark for the wall , like them that have no eyes , and tumbling to and fro in that fogg of forefathers figments , walking and wandring to wearinesse in that , as supersti●ous , as superfluous and meere unprofitable usefulnesse of your owne . And as to that other piece of thy s●anty Scripture , which , as thou saist p. 12 , of my urging a proof that was to purpose out of the Scriptures of truth , o I of that , methinks T.D. thou usherest and bringest it in with Pomp and Ceremony , attended with the Testimony of hundreds of people , as if it would be irresistable and would not onely hit the naile , but knock it up in the head ; Io. Boys Ch Nicol ; T. Focton ( an Esq a Minister , a Magistrate , one of a sort set down with an , &c. As representatives of the rest ) may wave their witnesse , if , they will in this , for I freely subscribe to every whit of it , as a truth , sith it s told , yet will it not doe at all , as to T. D's . designe , which he there drives on against me , but will doe not a little as to my defence . T is true when at the dispute thou offeredst to read something out of Amesius against Bellarmine , I replyed , as sleighting such a contemptible peice of businesse , and since thou wilt so set it down ( for thy reasoning is ridiculous enough in all reason , and conscience ) with a gesture of derision ( such as that of him who sits in heaven , and smiles to see the silly shifts , and vain imaginations of those that plot , and set them●elves against him , and his anointed , or that of him that said , Cry aloud for he is God , perhaps he is asleep , and must be awakened ; or that of Sion , who shook her head , at hers and 〈…〉 preachers ) that 〈◊〉 held many truths , which must not be rejected 〈…〉 of God ; at which thou wast ( ut Bellarminus enervatus , as one that had no more to say ( as to that matter ) for thy mouth was stopt from reading what thou intendedst , as well it might , for it would have been of as little effect to convict me of Popery , with which thou confessest I was then charged , as t is for me to say No , when lyers and unbeleivers charge me with it , which avails no more ( as the Proverb is ) then for one to ●ay Bo to a Goose. And now thou hast after thy silence , by which it was then taken for granted that thou hadst quitted me thereupon from thy rash charging me with Popery , here raked it up again among thy rest of thy remarkable folly , what meanst thou by thy new mention thereof ? Hast thou any more then before thou hadst ? Did not Cardinall Bellarmine hold some truths which thou holdest , as well as some that I hold against thee , and that Christ is the Son God , which we both hold ? where lyes the consequence of thy Argument to mine , more then to thy own complyance with that Popish Cardinall ? Thou ownst some false Apostaticall Tenets that he own'd , namely that of Tithes , when I own no other then his Apostolicall truths ; is he not , so far , thy Brother Bellarmine , more then mine ? Moreover as light , and little as I made of thy charge of Popery , I shall make so much of my making little of it then , as now to make a weighty argument against thee from it , and conclude contrarily to thy conclusion of me from thence to bein pay from the Pope , for that is not so light a matter , as the case stands here in England , that any man that 's well in his wits , and knowes himselfe to be guilty thereof , had need make light , and little of , seeing his neck lyes at stake , and his life is not a little concern'd in 't , if it can be proved . Whereas therefore T. D. concludes thus of me , ( viz. ) S.F. before hundreds of people made light of the charge of Popery ; Therefore in all likelihood he is guilty of what he is charg'd with ( viz. ) complying with and receiving a Pension from the Pope . I conclude thus ( viz. ) S. F. Before hundreds of people made light of his being charg'd of complying with and taking pay from the Pope , which were a matter of very dangerous consequence , if he were conse●ous to himselfe of it , that any one of those hundreds , who wanted no will to it , could possibly prove it ; therefore in all likelihood there is no such matter . And as to two others of the mean Mediums which T. D. makes what use he can of , to make men mistake me , to be such a complyer with the Roman Antichrist , ( viz. ) that I said at Dunkirk , I looked upon the Iesuits and Friars there to be sounder in Doctrine then those , he and his call the reformed Churchen : ● . that the doctrines which I broach are theirs and a fair In-let to their Bag and Baggage ; for this last of which ( as I here expresse it ) T.D. affords the world no more proof then his own single say so ; but for the other , to advance the faith of his saint hearted Reader into a full assurance of the truth thereof , that thick and threefold Testimony ( viz. ) that of his single folded self , and his old pair of Double 〈◊〉 ' d Trustees . T. Fox's ton , T. Bur●●●● , who ( saving T. D's . commendation of their honesty and credibility , which that single hearted friend of truth E. Burrough , with whom I went and was at Dunkirk , hath seen as little of as my selfe ) have dealt more Fox-like and Barbarian like , then like honest and credible men , or conscientious Christians with ●e , whom yet as I look for no more satisfaction from , then their subm●ssion to God , nor amends , then their amendment ; so I wish no worse to the worst of them , for the worst evill they have done to me , and the truth , then that God would grant them both true repentance to the acknowledgement thereof , that the lake of judgement , and condemnation , which must come upon all lyes and all deceit , may not , throw their continuance in impenitency therein , be the portion of their persons for ever : I say as to the two Assertions above , whence he infers the foresaid charge , I deny them both as false , for I did not tell it in those termes , that the Iesuits and Friars are ●ounder in Doctrine in grosse and in the lump , as is here falsely witnessed and related , then the reformed Churches ( as yee call them ) but to this effect ( viz. ) that ( setting aside their ●ordid and ●ottish superstitions in matters of their outward worship and service , in which I acknowledged them ( though T.F. and T.B. or else thy selfe being minded to wrong me , would not vouchsafe the world an acknowledgment of all my words ) to be far more full of manifest foolery and manifold Idolatry then the other ) the Jesuits & Friars were sounder in some doctrines , then some of the men cal'd Ministers in the said reformed , but in many things still too much d●formed Churches , and now with the nominations of thy self , T.D. whom I then named not , as one of those Ministers , then whom ( excepting ever their gross superstition ) some Iesuits and Fryars , in some points of doctrine , are more Reformed , I here give thee the advantage of my saying the same ore ' again , and make the best use of it thou canst , to draw from hence an assurance to thy self , and others of my probable complyance with the Popish Faction : I am sure thou canst draw no more then this with the best piece of twist that the best of thy Brain-pan affords , that in some points I agree with them , wherein thou dissentest from them , though in most things I differ from them , and to their faces appear more against them , then thy self , * and if thou wilt have no nay , but that this must be compliance , then shake ye hands with them , and be friends , who in Tithes , and twenty things more pertaining to the Parish Churches , wherein we contradict you both , do comply with them ; and if they that renounce them in twenty things to one , shall be counted one with them , if they agree in any thing at all , then according to the Rule of Quae conveniunt in aliquo Tertio , &c. by my consent , Qui conveniunt in aliquo uno erunt Idem ; such as are disjoyned in a thousand things , and yet happen to jump together in some one , shall not only in that one respect be counted one , but in all respects whatsoever be joyned and jumbled together as all one . As to the other saying , if by Broaching thou mean no other than Preaching ; some doctrines I so B●oach are owned by them ; though if by Broaching , thou mean bringing any new Doctrine , that was not held or heard of hitherto , or in these days till I declared it de novo , I deny thy talke of my Broaching , it is untrue ; for as I declare no other message or doctrine , then what was from the beginning , before the Letter was , about the Light and some other things , which the Letter tells of , even the good old way , wherein the Saints walked with God from Abell , Enoch , Noah , and so downwards unto this day ; which way hath been much Ecclipsed by the dark divinity of Divines in ages past ; so the first and new venting of that old way of the Light , which is new , as , by the passing of the darknesse , it begins anew to shine , was not from this Earthen vessel of mine , but other vessels of Honour Sanctified , and fitted for the masters use , and chosen to bear his Name , from whom I received it , through Gods mercy in their Ministry , which thou de pisest : the new wine of Gods wisdom , which now vents it self , and flowes forth of the new bottles , into which God puts it , which only are capable of it ( for yee old bottles cannot contain , nor comprehend it in the blindnesse of your hearts , as the darknesse comprehendeth not the true light , that shineth in it , nor bear the infusion of any of it into your souls without bursting to pieces at the very lent thereof ) was both broach't and tapr , and tasted of by others , who came into the Vinyard before me : 't is enough for me , who am lesse , then the least among the lovers of it , and was once not the least of the Drunkards of Ephraim , that are over-charged , intoxicated , and infatuated with that strong drink , and old wine of their own w●sdome , till they know neither where they are , nor what they say , that I have tasted it from the first hands , that in these dayes have fill'd it forth , much more , that to me this grace should be given to follow , in the free filling it forth to others , and to preach out among the Gentiles in such measure , as I am enrich't therewith by the free gift of God , the unsearchable riches of Christ Iesus ; And if this be to Breach , I Breach not onely many true Doctrines , but some true ones , which peradventure the Papists do not deny , yet I deny my Broaching of any any where , that are a fair In-let to their Bag and Baggage , or any part of their dark and dead Devotions , Trumpical Traditions , and Total Transformations of themselves and all things ( as to the outward form of Religion ) from the truth it self into ( at best ) a mear empty Apish imitation of it . But the doctrines ye teach in contradiction to what the Qua. preach in most things , are not only a fair In let to it , but also so fairly and fully bearing the very likenesse of it , that howbeit they that are of the night see it not , yet the Children of the Light , and of the day see them to be no other then some broken bits , and parts of that Popery , that stood here more perfectly , and in gross once , which our Priests , being loath to part with more of then they are forced to , have since parcelled for their own ends among themselves ; some Chips that flew off that Old Block , which fled beyond Sea , when 't was hewed away hence , some Stumps of the old Tree , under the shadow of which all England fate , as other people yet do , out of the sight of the Sun of Righteousnesse ; some Fragments of the Fryars faith , some shreds , odde ends , old Remnants , Rotten Rags and Re ikes of the old Whores Skirts , which Rome left behind her for hast , when she ran a way hence , which our English Princes , Priests and People so ran a whoring after , that they could never find in their hearts to send them away after her to this very day ; and in a word no other then the very Fag end of her Bag and Baggage . First , our Doctrine of perfect purging from Sin in this life , is no In-let to it , for the Papists are far enough ( as ye are ) from the belief of that , upon the non-belief of which in this life they build that piece of Baggage viz. a Purgatory in the life to come ; which though ye cry out of as Popish , yet while you hold with them , against us , no perfect purging from sin , in this world , and say worse then they do in defiance of that holy truth , which we stand in defence of ( for so ye do while ye call it a doctrine of Devils ) yee unavoidably usher in that of Purgatory in the world to come ; unless ye will fain another world wherein the perfect Purgation must be , which is neither this world nor that to come , which were a Chimera as bad as Purgatory , or say there 's no perfect purging at all , which were worse , you must by your denyal of the perfection of it here , establish a Basis for that Baggage to abide firm upon , and open a door so wide , for its entrance and entertainment as to let in the Popes Purgatory whether ye will or no. 2. Our Doctrine of Freely yee have received Freely give , and of Preaching the Gospel without mony and without price , and going forth for Christs names sake taking nothing of the Nations , our crying out as the true Pastors and Prophets did against the Hireling Shepheards , that like greedy dumb dogs , that cannot bark , unless it be against the truth , but bite shrewdly , when they are not fed , and yet never have enough , but are ever seeking every one his gain from his quarter , and our talking against Tithes , and the pay of Parish Priests , which is originally of the Pope and not after Christ and such like , this is no fair In-let to the Popish Priesthoods Bag , nor yet any of his Baggage , but much rather a shutting out of them both , for sure enough no more wages , no more work for a Masse Priest here , nor any where else ; no means , none of the Popes Ministries ; nor Ministrations ; no money no men , that will preach without it ; no Popish Parish pay , no more Popish : Parish Pasture , nor Parish Formal Prayer ; no reaping the clear Tenth of Corn , without a farthing charge , more then it costs to carry in ( which is the sixth of the Nations grain at that rate ) and the Cream and Quintessence of all other Carnal things , no Seminary seeds men , of that Sort , to sow such Earthen Heavenly things , such meer fleshly Spirituallities , as the Spirits of that Spiritually are fully fraught with : No Room for the rest of Romes Religion , where taking of Tithes , and Raking in the Revennue may not be a prime part thereof ; keep out the wide mouth'd Bag of all the lord Beggers , and they 'l never Burden England , so much as these have done , with their far fetcht dear bought Baggage : But the English Priesthood Preaching for hire , and Divining for money , and taking of Tithes as aforesaid ; and talking for them , and gaping after the gain thereof , and Augmenting their Arguments , and hideous outcryes for Augmentations out of the Antichristian Treasury of Deans and Chapters Lands , and powerfull pleadings for the Popish Pensions of Parsonages , Vicaradges and Curat-ships , &c. and seeking , and suing for such Superstitious emoluments , and uncessant , and unfatiable callings out more maintenance , more maintenance , this is not onely a fair In-let to the Popes Bag , but also no small part of his Baggage , whereby his Bag is upheld , which receiprocally upholds his Baggage ; for these two are the mutual [ In-lets and upholders of each other , and as 't was said of old , two good livings , which some mongril Presbyterian-Independants can digest yet , are a good step toward a Lord Bishop , which is not far from an Arch-Prelate , so how an Arch-Bishop at Canterbury is next to the Arch Bishop at Rome , may be seen by such as have read how that Heavenly Pope Calestine set Anselm , Arch Bishop of Canterbury , at his right foot in a General Councel , saying Includamus hunc in orbe nostro tanquam alter us Orbis Papam , we must in our world count upon him , as a certain Pope of another world . 3 Our Doctrine against Infant Sprinkling is no fair In-let thereto , for that is another part of his Baggage , that supports several other parts of it , which together with it support his Bag ; which take away , and his National and Parochial Churches fall , in the fall of which much more Rubbish and Baggage of his fals with it , which wont to fill the Bag ; yea and much mony fails , and goes beside the mouth of it , which was paid for mortuaries , dirgis deprofundis , &c. in the dismal dayes of his darkest Dominion here , besides the refuse of the Cross , and the Gossips , with whom at their Gossippings the Priests had many good Sippings , their wonted Fees for Christnings , Churchings , &c. in the late time of the font and Canonicall Coat & the white Surplice ; and not a little might be better spared , then so ill spent , as it hath been , since the Bason began and the white Surplices are left off , among the men that are yet too much for their black Superfluities , whose Vniversity Superstitious Snapsacks bear a great portion of , and not a little proportion to the forenamed Baggage : But such a practice as pleading for sprinkling of Babes , which is a tradition little better than their Sprinkling of Bells ( in their works ) gives a fair In-let , or at least forbids the Out-let of not a little of the Antichristian Bag and Baggage ; though ( in their words ) they would fain seem wholly to Renounce it . 4. Our doctrine against persecution is no In-let thereto ; for the Bloody Tenets of Inquisitions , Burnings , Headings , Hangings , Quarterings , &c. In that case of Conscience , are ( as Iachin and Boaz were before the True Temple of God , ( that is by interpretation ) establishment and strength the most proper props of the Popes Temple , and all its Trumpery , the' most Principal Pillars that all his stuff stands on ; the Bottome of his Babilonish building , by which poor people are so frightned into a blind obedience , and conformity thereunto , that whatever appears of truth to them within , they dare not appear to obey , nor so much as peep forth into any prosession thereof , without , but before there is any thing born up to suffer for it , they are quickly cut off , and , as Hernicks , soon handled to dust and ashes , which most Beastly part of it all the rest of his Babilonish Baggage , when ever it shall happen to be removed , all the rest runs immediately to Ruine . But the doctrine and practice of hating and hunting the Saints to and fro as Harmless Hares , hauking after them ( as Saul after David ) as Partridges about the mountains , from Court to Court , from Commitee to Commitee , for their flesh and their egges , that the Tithe , or else the price of the Tith of their egges , and geese , and hens , and piggs , and lambs , and calves , and their other commodities also ( viz. ) corn , and hemp , and hey , and hops , and pears , and plums , and apples , and other fruits of their lands , in which their Ministers labour not , may take a trebble turne through their Teeth , and that of laughing , mocking , scoffing , scorning , ●●uring , houting , holding , haling , beating , kicking , di●ring , stocking , stoning , pumping , prisoning , Bocardo●ng , Fining , banishing , bridling , bridewelling , branding , boring , pilloring , ga●ging , eare marking , nose flitting , scourging , cutting , slashing , hanging , and such like , which have been used of late , yet I must needs say not altogether so much conniv'd at , and countenanced by the Magistracy , that is supream corrective , as caused and encouraged to by the Ministry , which takes upon it still in such matters to be supream directive in these , which ye call the Reformed Churches , I say the doctrine and practice of such inhumanity as this , which some Teachers and Doctors in Divinity , the dark places of whose earthly hearts are too full of the habitations of Cruelty , as well in Old , and specially New-England , as in Italy , France , and Spain , both have and yet do plead , and in some part practice against the truly tender conscientious Lambs of Christ , whereby we may ( as ex pede Herculem , ex ungue leonem * ) ee what kind of wild Beasts of the Forrest they yet are , that love Christs little Flock , ( not to feed , but to feed on ) with all their hearts , are a fair inlet to the Marian Baggage of Fire and Faggot , for not owning the Roman Faith , if the Magistrates do not save their longing , and forbid the Marching of it in , more then the Ministers , that are ever and anon facing about and Marching the old way ; being indeed but the Dragons Tayle , the S●ing whereof reaches still as far as England , though his head he as far off as Rome ; a little of Levia●han , that crooked Serpent , which he left when he went away to let in himself by into these Nations at his return again ; and the Tayle , or some gentle shatterings of that sharp shour , and sturdy storm , which fell down in greater drops of blood , and Flakes of Fi●e in the days of her dominion here , and not only so , but a fair pretence for Papists to bolster themselves up by , in their persecutings of such as go now to tell the Truth to them in their own Countryes : for to my knowledge it s none of the least Pleas , they now have in other Nations , both Protestant and Popish , for the groslest abuses they can do to the Qua. in whom else they see no harm , but as from hence they are made to suspect it , to say , Thus and Thus they do to you in your own Country of England , where you are well known , therefore no marveil if we do thus unto you here . And that the Divines old and young , not only have been in the darker , but are even in these brighter times of Protestanism it self , so deeply accessary to , and guilty of the aforesaid sufferings , witnesse the Barbarous , Basenesse Acted and Inflicted on the witnesses to the Lords Truth , not onely in all other quarters of this Nation ( to say nothing of New-England , Scotland , Ireland ) but also at the two Eyes , and Well heads of divinity , and Nurseries of learning and true Religion , ( as they are call'd ) as well Oxford , as Cambridge , as they stand extant to the view of all the world , ( as most of that of other places and Cities do ) in sundry printed Relations , and Testimonies thereof , the reading whereof may well take hold on all tender hearts , and draw Tears from their eyes , to see the lamentable injuries , and abominable iniquities done to the Saints , by those painted Sepulchers , in a land of such godlinesse as this pretends to . Witnesse also that Divine Doctrine of that Divine Doctor Owen , with whom I have here to doe , in the dayes of whose Vice Chancellorship , what influence was given by him toward the Oxford persecutions , he knows as well as others ; and what influence his doctrine might have upon the Powers , to whom he often preached , to the stirring them up to more persecution then they were free for , if God had not made them wiser then their Teachers , all may see , that can read it from his hand in his Latine Divine d●sputation , which I am to talk with , where p. 89. ( his own words in the margin above truly Englished ) he Teacheth thus though no men could ever yet Tax them with stirring against the State. ( viz ) that the Qua. are not perfect , nor come to Christ in Glory , their lyes , deceits , wickednesses , hypocrisy , are evident Testimony unto us ; But indeed those punishments , and imprisonments , which they voluntarily pull upon themselves by their tumultuousnesse , of which they ●●manishly complain , ought of right to be inflicted upon them , who impudently glory that they are free from all these , and other sins , even the least - So far forth as this peice containes I. O's . false accusation of the Qua. and pertaines to the point of perfection it may possibly come to account again in other places , more proper for it then this : it s here related , as to that relation that it bears onely to the point of persecution : in which capacity , who so is capable to see it , may perceive by the Paw he here puts forth , what prey I. Owen lack and how ( like them of old who cloathd Christians with wilde Beasts skins , that they might seem to the dogs to be such , and so expos'd-them to dogs to be baited ; or covered them all ore with draff and swillings , and then threw them to the Swine to be devoured ) so he first ( fortiter accuset ) loads the Quakers with calumny , and layes ( lyingly ) heavy things to their charge , and then ( Magistraliter satis , Ministerialiter magis ) as Authoritatively as that whole Tribe which must ever be in such Supremacy , as to direct , till they come to correction themselves , gives out what ought to be done with them , by such as were onely us'd to correct Hereticks at their appointment . The Doctrine then of persecution as taught and learnt , too much , to this day by our English Reformadoes from Ramish Rubbish , is not onely a retaining of much of , but an open dore for the rest of the Popes Baggage to return by as the times turn ; but our innocent tender Tenet of liberty of conscience * is so averse to , and inconsistent with it , as that it turns it all up by the very Roots . And whereas it may be objected , that a pleading the universality of liberty may seem to be an In-let to Popery very much , for if you would have Toleration for all , then how will you keep out the Papists Bag and Baggage ? Rep. I answer not with the carnall weapons of your warfare , but with a sharper Sword then that , whereby you and they seek to keep out the truth , even that with 2 edges , the light , and spirit of the living God , which goeth out of his mouth , who is call'd the Word of God , who will go on conquering and to conquer all the vain imaginations in the hearts and consciences of men , to cast down the strong hold of the Prince of darknesse , in the might and power of God , and captivate every high thing that exalts in selfe against the knowledge of God , and every thought to the obedience of himselfe , and avenge all that disobedience of his Adversaries , whose Ministry further then by his own permission it s born down by that extrinsecall force of the beasts putting forth , and interposing for a time , will make its own way , and cleare the truth , as the light , both amongst and against all false ones , without either maintenance or defence , or so much as good countenance ( if that may not be had ) from the higher powers of the earth ; being such a Substantive , as is well able , if let alone , and in the midst of not a little interruption , to stand by it self in reason before any , and not such a Noun-Adjective , as the national● C Clergy is , which cannot stand by itself to shew one glasse full of its own sense , and meaning on the Scripture , without some Constable or Officer joyning with it to take that honest man or woman to the Stocks or Cage , that by two or three good words shall disturb them ; nor stand by it self to shew its reason or signification to such as soberly reason with it , but must require another force then that of words to resist , and sometimes the rude ones to run with stones , and stop the mouths of its opponents . Not by might nor power of this sort , but by my spirit , saith the Lord. That Dagon , that cannot stand unless its worshippers hold it up in this manner before the Ark , undoutedly will fall , and let it fall if it will , and never rise any more for me . And if Papists , Iews , and Turks , being obedient to the civill power in civill matters between man and man , shall come in and u●e their blind consciences , in their respective blind Religions , they shall deceive not one of the Elect , and none but such as are disobedient to what they know ●for which to stumbling they are appointed : That Protestanism that can't stand if Popery , Indaism , and Turcism have liberty , till it fall by the pure power of God , and not meer man , to stand peaceably by it in one Nation , for fear it should dye out before them , let it dye out with them all , when the Lord will , for me , that truth , which is to out-shine , and out-live them all , may stand up alone in its proper power and native lustre when they are gone ; as for such Protestants as would run to hell with them , if Papists , Turks and Iewes should come among them , they are onely such as would never come neer to heaven , if these should never come neer them at all . 5 . Our Doctrine of the true lights enlightning every man , ( the truth of which is to be prov'd against I. O. and T. D. in its proper place ) and our calling every man to attend to the shining of it in his own conscience , can be no fair In-let to the Popish Bag and Baggage , for all that arises and springs from the cloudinesse of their consciences , the blindnesse of their hearts , the darknesse that is in their understandings , in which darknesse , or dark places , which are in the heart , the true light shines , though the darknesse comprehends it not , and the da●k minds of men consider it not , which if they would once doe so well as to take heed to , the day would dawn , the day Star arise at last in their hearts , the light shine forth , the shadowes fly away , the clouds scatter , the vaile that overspreads them vanish , the face of the covering be removed , the da●knesse of this world , in which the devill , who is the Prince and Ruler of it , dwells , diggs , deceives , devoures , destroyes , udoes , does all he has to doe , who hath nothing in Christ the light , nor ought to doe in them , that dwell out of his reach under Christs Protection in the l●ght , would be dispeld , and the b●●ghtness● of a better Religion , Worship , Gospell , Faith , Knowledge , Righteousn●sse , Holynesse , Salvation , Redemption , Kingdome , then any power and glory they yet are aware off , or your selves either , would break forth upon them . But such as your Tenet is , who rebell against the light , not knowing the pa●hs the●e●f Job . 24.6 . and band yourselves together against the blowers of it up in men , to blow it out what yee can , denying it to be , in any measure at all , in any but very few , quarrelling with the Quakers for calling any , much more all to take heed to it , that they might walk up in singlenesse , to to what of God by it is made known in them , doth both River England into a resolution to retain so much of Romes Bag and Baggage as is yet remaining , and into their and the Priests wonted readinesse to receive more or all of it again , if it shall so return , as in Ma●yes day●s , and be handed out to them by the threatning helping hand of those , that have the highest handling of the Helm . 6 . Our Doctrine of the infallibility of the true Ministry of Christ , which we say is that , which is among them call'd Quakers in these dayes , as in those of old , can be no fair In-let to the Antichristian Bag and Baggage or to those Ministries or Ministrations ; for to teach ( which is not more taught by me , then shall be proved against I. O. and T. D. who both deny it , more at large in its proper place ) ( viz. ) that the infa●●ible spirit continues his infallible direction , guidance and divi●e inspirations to the true minist●y and Church , which waits upon him now in such wise as heretofore , is so far from leting in , that it shuts out for ever , their M●nist●y , & all its A coutrements , as false & fictitious , and yours also , who , as to your confessed fallibility , are Bi●ds of the same feather with them , who as in that ye flock , so must flee and fall , and fail all together ; seeing ( saving onely that they ascribe infalibility to their Vice-God the Pope , as yee doe not , and Ch●ists spirits inspirations to his single sacred soul ) they count it Egregi●us blasph●my for any Minister or other to say they have the holy spirit , so onely as to assure them of Gods love and acceptance , much more to make them infallible in their ministry ; and though you hold men may have it to assure them of salvation , yet as to it s assumed and infallible guidance of your selves in yours , or any men at all in their ministrings now , you count it little lesse then the same , and differing so as to the matter of the Ministry , no further from them , then thus ( viz. ) that whereas they hold infallibility ●omewhere ( but falsely enough fixing it to that false subject , the breast of their Arch-Bish●p , Vicar● of Christ and supream Master-Minister ) here on earth , yee deny it to be in an● Ministers at all now , to the utter u●m●nistring of your selves , and evincing it yee are none of Christs , any more then they . But so to teach that all Ministries , that pretend to Christ , are fallible in these dayes , and not one Christian Ministry infallible throw-out the earth , Nor any one of all them , that are in England at this day , no nor yet so much as that of your own , is a Doctrine and a peice of news , which , if it were not a little more strange then true ( for one here is , though it be not yours is a very fair In-let to , and by my con●ent might , without much scruple , usher in that old Antichristian Ministry , and its pertenances here again , as that which may stand welny with as much safety to peoples souls , and give as good security and infallible assurance of its guiding and conducting them infallibly to salvation , as your own can doe ; since that , at the worst , is little worse then fallible , and your own by your own consent , at the best , is little better : for it s much at one to me and other poor people of it what Mnistry stands here in England , if , in a case of such main moment and eternall concernment , there stands none that by the Spirit of God are made in their ministrations infallible : if there be no guides to be had , save such as are fain to confesse they are but fallibly guided themselves , or if in this case there be no other ( as the Proverb is ) then Hobsons Choice to be made , which is chuse whether you will have this or none , One blind guide being to me little better then another , if others would be rul'd by me , I would chuse none of that sort at all ; but cleave to the light and Spirit it selfe , which is infallible , and leads all that follow it into all truth ; for if the blinde lead the blind , whether Papists or Protestants , they must all at last into the ditch : and if England must have an outward ministry , and by no meanes will be made to own that ministry of the Qua. now among them , which is of God , seeing it is so that none of all those other she takes hold on in this day of her breaches , saying thou hast cloathing , be thou our Ruler in things of God , Let this ruine be made up under thy hand , that answer her any other then so , as Isa. 2.6.7 . I will not be an healer , for in my house is neither bread nor cloathing ; I am not guided infallibly my selfe , I am a deceivable erring man , I dare not say my ministry is unerring , make me not a Ruler of the people ; seeing I say there 's none to guide her assuredly among all her own Sons she ha●h brought forth , Isa. 15.18 . Neither any that taketh her by the hand infallibly to direct her among all the Sons she hath brought up with great care , cost and charge at her own Universities here at home ; but they are all at a losse within themselves , m●ping up , and down in a mist , their Divinest Doctors confessing and declaring that to be justly come upon them , which God aid should , Isa. 29.9 . to 15. ( viz. ) that its night to them , they can't infallibly divine , the vision of all is become as a book sealed to them , they can't read , &c. ( Though I advise her not to give way to any of those guides yet ) she could have neither more nor lesse said to her , if she should send for some of her own native Sons to come home , and guide her , that are brought up in the English Colledge at the Popes own charge at Rome it selfe ▪ But if she be resolved no more to be foold with a fallible ministry , but will have one that is infallible ( as I would or none at all ) then if she mean never to bear the Popes Bag and Baggage in truth , as she talks she will not , let her take the infallible Spirit within for her guide and no man without but such as are guided infallibly by it , which guides none fallibly , that unfainedly follow it , as thousands of Quakers do ; and if any seem to do it and do not , they in so doing undo themselves ; but I know no other men call'd Ministers in all the world beside the Qua. that so much as pretend to infallibility , but he that s●ts in the infallible chaire . 7 . Neither is our Doctrine of the light and spirits being the rule of the true faith and good life , and not the externall Text or letter of the Scripture onely , any fair In-let for the P●pish Bag and Baggage ; for howbeit they take not the Text thereof to be their onely truest Touchstone , most certain Standard and measure of Truth and Doctrines , as we doe not , yet that they take for their sure and certain Rule ( which we say with you , is a manifold more fallible matter , yea by an hundred degrees more fallible then the most falsified Coppy of the Scripture , that ever yet came forth ) is something that stands more at Staves end , and at a far wider distance from that aforesaid Rule of ours , then from yours , who for your Rule and Standa●d doe own no other then the Scripture ; by how much , two things , whereof the one is fallible , the other infallible , are further off each other by far , then two things are , both which are at most no more then fallible : for the Light and Spirit of Christ , which we onely do , and all Christians ought to own , for their standing Rule and trusty Teacher , are i●fallible , and will hereafter in the proper place for that , be proud to be to ; But your professed Standard , which is no other then that outward Text , and the Papists , which is no other then Tradition taken from that dark , and worse then dubious Oracle ( viz. ) the erring mi●d and mouth of their great Grand Ghostly Father ( excepting ever that this is far more fallible then the former ( i.e. ) then the letter ) are both but fallible . Your Doctrine , then who teach the meer Text , which is but fallible ( as must anon be shew'd ) to be the most true Touchstone , comes neerer to the Papists Doctrine , who teach another thing to be the most true Touchstone , which ( what ere you say of the infallibility of yours , and they of the infallibility of theirs ) is at best but fallible , and at worst but more fallible , then yours is , then ours possibly can do , which is on all hands own'd to be infallible . And howbeit the Scripture ( which lyes in the midway between us , and Papists , so that till they March so far towards us , as to own it better then they do , they and we are never likely to meet in one , unlesse they can come , ab extrem● ad extremum from their ill extream to our true extream , and misse the m●dium as they cannot , ) howbeit , I ●a● the Scripture and its honest owners are really neerer and dearer to us then they , and their most trusty traditions are , which they take from their sore aid O●●cle ; yet is there not so vast a disproportion and di●agreement betwen ●uch owners as ye are of the Scripture for the only Rule , and such as own that Treasury of Traditions , that lyes lockt up in the Pope ; Breast , as the only Rule , as is between these Tradition-Truster● and us , who own as our only Rule , the true light of Christ and the holy Spirit ; the inconsistency being not so much between your meer fallible l●tter and their more fallible chaire , as it is between the most assuredly infall●ble holy spirit , and their most assuredly fallible , though supposed infallible holy chair . 8 . Our Doctrine of the fallibility of the bare na●ed letter of the Scripture , and of its lyablenesse to corruption , and its being corrupted , and falsified by mistranscriptions , so as to have various Lections in the most Originall Copyes of it , that are extant in Greeke & Hebrew at this day ( which remains to be in its proper place proved against I. O. who pleads that kind of purity of it to every tittle , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad nauseam us●u● ) is no fair In-let to the Pop●sh Bag & Baggage , though I find I. O. So supposing , & giving us out his sole suppositions and thoughts , that 't is but a supposition , that it is corrupted , and such a one , as by which P●pe●y is supported , speaking in at least three places of his English peice to this same purpose , ( viz. ) p. 147. What use ha●h been made , and is as yet in the World ●f this supposition , that corruptions have befallen the O●iginals of the Scripture , which those various Lection ( meaning those that the Pr●l●gam●na to the Biblia polyglotta do declare ) at fi●st view seem to intimate , I need not d●clare . It is in briefe , th● foundation of M●humetisme th● chi●f●●t and principall prop of Popery , the onely pretence of Fanaticall Anti●cripturists , and the Root of much h●dden Atheisme in the World. also p. 196. Now if this cou●se be taken and every S●igma●ized c●ppy may be sea●ched for differences and these presently Pinted for various Lections , there is no doubt but we may have enough of them to f●ighten poor unstable souls into the A●mes of the pretended in●allible Judge ; also ( to say nothing here of the hideous affrightments , dangers , fears of I. O. Who is oft mo●e afraid then hurt , and other of the dreadfull and desperate consequences of this Imagination● ( as he calls it , though a reall truth ) that corruptions and various Lections are crept into his Originall Text of the Scripture , and that Protestants begin now to sent it , as well as Papists , and to be infected with the Leprosy of that Opinion , which he trembles , think of , as an i●convenience , which he knows no whither it will grow , and fears whether many will not be ready to question the foundati - of the letter , as dubious and uncertain , and not fit to be the Rule ( as sure enough they will when they begin to see , what some have felt , and cry out with him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seeing that their supposed firm foundation to be fallible and falsified as it is ) having no more yet to releive himselfe against this uncertainty of his standing , then that mi●erable comfort ( viz. ) that the generality of lea●ned men among Protestants are not yet ( but how soon they may be , he is not aware ) i●fected with this leven , which hurries and pittifull Puthers and dreadfull deale ado , that the Doct● makes in his D●eam about this up and down in the 13.14.15.20.25 . and other pages of his preface and throw out the 4th little Chapter of his 2d . Treatise , which is so falsly figured that the pages cannot easily be coted , are enough to make some wise men smile that never meant it ) I say to let passe all that at present , among other mischiefs , that he conceives will accrue , if men conceive the Scripture to have had , by mis-transcriptions , the fate of other books , and that in their Originall Copyes , this must needs be one , that they have no where else to betake themselves for a Rule , but to run back to Rome , witnesse his last words of that forecited Chap. which are these ( viz. ) and if this change of judgement which hath been long insinuating it selfe by the curiosity and boldnesse of Criticks should break in also upon the Protestant world and be avowed in publike works , it is easie to conjecture what the end will be . We went from Rome under the conduct of the Purity of the Originalls , I wish none have a mind to return thither under the pretence of their corruption . But stay a while , I. O. is there for such as are lost , no way out of the Wood , but that one of thy own fancying , or else that other of the Papists , which is worse then none ? Is there nought for men to doe , but either they must stare with thee , or else , for fear of they know not what , run stark mad with them ? either fall in with thy meer figments about the Scripture , or else if they find it not as infallible in every Apex of it , as thou foolishly fainest , be frightend strait into the more fallible fantasmes of that fantasticall holy Father ? Sure if that judgement , that the same fate ; as to the creeping of corrupttions into it , hath befallen that writing , as hath done other Scripture , be a Pr●p to Pope●y , where Popery at pre●ent stands , yet thou wilt find some , who are of the Papists mind about the Scripture ( as far as to the variety of Lections , which are found in the very Origina●l Text thereof ) who yet have betaken themselves to , and doe stand on such a sure foundation , as will s●and when Popery , and Common P●otestanism too shall faile for ever , with whom neither one nor th' other of these , wh● are i th' same nature still , though fighting for their different outward●faulty foundations , and foolish formes , so standing , can have any fellowship ; who , instead of returning to R●me , under a pretence of Corruption in your Originalls , under the conduct of your conceited purity of which ye came from thence , are running further , and faster , then ever from Rome and you too , that live within her lines of Communication still , and feed upon the Taile of her traditions , more then on the true word of God , for all your wording it so much against them and for the word , under the infallible conduct of the pure , Originall it self , even the pure light living , Word and Spirit of God , by which Abell , Enoch , Noah walked with God of o●d before your ( but pretended ) Rule was written , in respect of which the eldest of your Originalls are but upstarts , and from which the best of your Originalls had their being . Nevertheless , who hath believed our report ? to whom is this Arme of the Lord Revealed , &c. O nugas h●minvm ! O quantum est in R●bus inane ! quis legit haec ? vel duo vel neimo . I. O. cannot see this , and few or none of our skilful Scribs and Scripturists can read this , though the Scripture sends them from it self to that it came from ; nor yet how by raking so unreasonably to make men believe that of the Scripture , which 't is unposible for any that can truly read them to believe of them , or find from themselves , himself frightens honest souls , from any further giving of much heed to his own judgement , when by a serious search they shall find the falshood of it in so plain and palpable a case as that is , he so miserably miscarries in : but whether they will give most heed to Christ him●elf or no , and to his Light in the Conscience , and word in the heart , or to the bare Letter of the Scripture , which only Testifies of him , without ever coming to him that they may have the life , or to the Pope . I leave it ; A little time will now detect it , howbeit some may go one way , some another , and like to like , and each to what , and to whom he best loves and likes , but Christs Sheep , to whom he onely gives Eternal Life , they will assuredly heare his voice , which who doeth not , must be cut off from among his people . 9 . Our Doctrine of the Vniversal grace , and general love of God to all mankind , in giving Christ Intentionally to be a Saviour to all , that all that are lost in the fall of the first man , may be in possibility and true capability of Redemption and Salvation by him , without a bolt by any personal Reprobation of the most therefrom , with no reference to their acting any evill , and that unchangeably before they had a being , ( unless themselves p●nendo obicem debarr themselves from the benefit thereof , by Rejecting the council of God against themselves , by an obstinate resisting the strivings of his Spirit with them to bring them to it , and a wilful putting away of the word of eternal life , when by Christ its brought nigh even in their hearts and mouths , that they may hear and do it ) this is no fair In-let to their Bag and Baggage : This perhaps is assented to as truth by the Papists , the more shame for the most of our hypocritical Churles that gainsay it , who would be , but must be no more called liberal and bountiful , while they are bold to utter errour against the Lords large love , as if he were such a niggard as themselves , who care not how few men be saved , provided that their ever-sinning-selves be not damned , but elected to be saved in their sins , without being perfectly purg'd from them before they die , by Christ , of whom they must yet once know what yet they will not , that he came to save all people from all sin , who a●e willing to be saved , and not to give any such darlings of his , as they darkly deem themselves to be , an allowance in the least , or a dispensation to sin throw infirmity till they die , and then to save them from the desert thereof after death ; the Instruments of which vile Chu●l● a●so are evil to destroy the poor people of God with their lying words , when they speak no other then right things . But what if the Romish Clergy do hold such a general grace of God ? they are by so much the more of a noble spirit then your selves , who deny it , in the owning of that most pretious truth , if they were not far worse then yourselves in other mattters : And as for us called Qua. who preach it here for Truth ( as against I. O. and T. D. it must anon be prov'd to be in the proper place ) as we take neither it nor ought else to be truth by tradition from Papists , or e●e the more because they own it , but as our selves have received it from the muoth of God , so I hope you wise men will grow wiser by then I have done , then to judg we must either reject truth it self , if their Church once hold it , or else be judged to be of them while we hold it with them : and as in holding it out freely , ( as we do other Truths ) we neither fill nor feed , ( as you do your own , by holding In the Truth ) their as Hypocritical as Hydropical Bag , so it being no worse then that Golden Gospel Truth , which ye Divines darken so much by your dirty distinctions , and meer guilded glosses , could we make such ●a fair In-let for it , that it might shine forth in its brightness , as it once will do , from one end of England to another , we should in so doing usher in no part of their Baggage ; But indeed your selves in standing against it have not only stor'd your Bag more then is fit for men to do , that make a Trade of treading down the Truth , But have brought in a piece of Babylonish Baggage of your own , as bad , if not worse then all the Popes , for its all one to me what outward Religion men be of , true or false , Papism or Protestanism , or whether they have any at all among them yea , or nay if it be so as our personal Electionists ( absit blasphemia ) breath it forth verbatim , or at least , doctrinally and in effect , that the mercy of the Almighty , which is said to abound to and over all , and extend beyond all his other works , and his infinite large , and incomprehensible love to all men , is yet no larger then may be comprehended in that little corner , whereinto they croud it , so as to say that one of a thousand only are decreed to be saved , and a thousand to one of the Sons , and Daughters of men , without respect to any evil foreseen in their proper persons to be acted in time , are from all eternity decreed by God himself , and that unchangeably and everlastingly to be damned : For then that one of a thousand shall assuredly be saved , and a thousand to one as inalterably perish , and die eternally , and this or that outward Religion is no remedy against that , which was so ordered long before the poor Creatures had any being . And as one said once unto me , for whom t will be better then he deserves , if our God take him not at his word ( viz ) he would not own that God that would own a Qua. to be one of his Children ; so say I ( but not so desprately as he did the other ) I know , and own no other God but him , who will own all to be his Children , who will unfainedly own him to be their Father , and save all them , that are truly willing , in his way , to be saved from their sins by him , who never yet declared himself willing to save any in them , who sent his Son a light in the world not to condemn it , but to that intent that the world , which loving darknesse rather then light will needs be damned , through his Light notwithstanding might be saved , and will shew mercy upon all them , who will have pitty upon themselves , so far as not to despise the riches of his grace , and reject his unfained tenders , and honest offers thereof when they are made : neither do I own him to be my God ( for my God is a God of mercy and truth to all ) who without any respect to their personal rejectings thereof in time , wills never to have mercy upon th● most ; who would have any to perish , and not have all to come to Repentance ; who would not truly have all , as well as some to be Saved , and come to the knowledge of the Truth ; who hath any pleasure at all that the very wicked , much more that the innocent should die ; that delighteth in the death of him that dieth , and had not really rather , that he should turn from his wickednesse and live ; that means any otherwise then he sayes , or is quite contrary to what he seems to be in his speeches , to either good or bad ; that hath two wills within himself , whereof one is contradictory to the other ; that reveals his will to be this , that he 's no ●●specter of persons , but all men as they do shall have , that the soul that sins shall die , but that that turns and does righteousnesse shall live , that men die at their own wills , and choice not his ; and yet hath a secret will within himself ( which as secret as they call it , yet our Priests will be twatling of it openly ever and anon , as if they knew it as well as the other ) wherein he wills and chuses , that a few only shall live , and irresistably by them or ought they shall ever do , a thousand to one shall die ; that sends out his Son as a mocker of most men , by calling them all to believe every one that he is his , and is come to be his Saviour , when yet he died not for every individual , but contrary to his Revelation in the Scripture , gave himself a Ransom , not for all , but only for a few ; that makes an of●er of Salvation to all by Christ , but intends it only to some few ; that sends out his Ministers with a lye in their mouths , ( for a truth it is not say our M●nisters , yet they will preach it ) ( viz ) that G●ds love and good will is truly towards them all , and every one may lay claim to it as well as any one : when yet according to their doctrine at other times , there 's no such matter as this , but his love is only to some certain ones , which he secretly Selects , and yet he can't do it so secretly neither , but they must tell on 't to as many as they tell the other ; that sends his Ministers to make every man believe that Christ died for him in particular , which if every man should believe ( according to their other will of God , which , but that they are Tel-tales , should be called his secret will , which is that he gave not Christ to Tast of death for every man , but for very few ) most men must believe a very lye ; and yet if every man believe it not for himself , he must be damned too , for not believing of that , which ( according to themselves still ) is no Truth , but a very notoriously● ; that condemns the world of Sin , Iohn 16. because they believe not in Christ , as their Saviour , and yet leaves the world , which ( say our preachers ) Christ died not to save , for he died only for such as are not of it , without any Saviour , that is theirs , to believe in : that on pain and peril of his eternal displeasure , Requires men like Pharoah , whom he plagu'd for his cruelty in the self same case , to make such a Tal● of B●ick , and yet yeelds them no straw wherewithal to do it , but leaves them to go look it where they can . He that doth thus , and much more of the like nature , which the doctrine of such , as deny the Vniversal grace of God , doth in effect Represent their God as doing , may be own'd as a God by such as make him one , and by the Ministers of his own making , yet is not owned by me to be the true God of Gods , but a God of his own Ministers own making to themselves after the Image of their own vain Imaginations ; yet such a God as this are I. O. T. D. I. Tombs , R. Baxter , and the whole Diacony of D●vines , that deny the death of Christ for all men , devising , and Imagining to themselves , of whom till they come to know , and own the true God , which is mine , in his mercy truth and faithfulnesse , a little better then they do , or can by that dark lantern of their own understandings , in which they are poring after him in the Letter only , besides his own light and spirit , in which only he is seen as he is , I must say so much , and of my self together with them , that whosoever is the father of myself or of them , we are not yet one and the same Fathers Children . 10 . Our Doctrine about good works , and our Preaching , and Maintaining , and pleading for good works , as necessary for many good uses against T. D. or any other , this is no fair In-let to the P●pish Bag and Baggage , for all good works as are so indeed , and not only so suppo●ed by such as call good evil , and evil good , are of God and Christ Jesus , the truth and none of the Pope , nor of his Priests , nor any other meer man that I know of , neither are there any that can truly be so called ( for what thou or the Pope or any Papists or Protestants , falsly call good works is another case , not at all pertaining to our purpose ) to be found for ought I see in his whole Budget of Religious Implements , nor in the whole Masse or Magazine of his Massy matters , and 't is more then I shall see , while I see you but besides , much more against that light , in which only that is done , which goes for good in the account of God , if there be any good works ( truly good ) to be found yet among the best of your own ; I know you have a whole warehouse of Religious works ( such as they are ) which you are accustomd to call good , as they do theirs , but what your good works are in your own sight is one , and what they are in the sight of God is another Question ; there is a Generation ( wo to them ) that are wise in their own eyes , prudent in their own sight , yet very fools in the sight of God , there is a Generation ( wo to them also ) that call evil good , and good evil ; put darknesse for light , and light for darknesse , bitter for sweet , and sweet for bitter ; there is a Generation ( O how lof●y are their eyes , and their eye-lids lifted up , wo to them also , for they are a stink in his nostrills , and as smoak in his nose before the Lord ) that are pure in their own eyes , and yet are not , nor ever mean to be , while they live , fully washed from their filthynesse ; I have read of a Generation that had more good works ( as they count them ) to count upon then all the National Churches of either Protestants or Papists , and works more good , as to the matter of them ( if what matter God requires may be counted better , then what is required by meerly man ) all whose whole Treasury of Solemn Services , out of which they offer'd to him , was yet in the fight of God esteemed but Trash , so long as t was the sinner only that so served , and sacrificed , and no other then Cain the evil doer still , that did that good ; such were all the haughty Mincing Daughters of Zion , that walk't with stretcht out necks , and bosted in the Bravery of their Tinkling Ornaments , their New-moons , Sabbaths , burnt Offerings , Prayings , Prayses , Fasts , and Feasts , in which , when they drew near to God , they did no more then what he by Moses had appointed ( as ye do , for which you have your labour for your paines ) who worship not after his own praecepts , and doctrines in outwards , but after the Commandements , and Traditions of men , and of the Pope himself in many things still , and yet because they did not so much as he appointed them in matters of more moment , but were unclean , and wicked , refusing to walk in the good old way of the Light , which was the way before Moses , and the letter was , turning away their eare from hearing the Law in the heart , which is the light , were not only vain but abominable in the very best of their Oblations . In Preaching therefore in order to Gods acceptance of us , and our good works , which are not outward worships , where the heart and life are yet defiled , but where a new Creature , created after his own Image of God in Christ Iesus to good works , in his nature , and by his Power , though in it's own person , doth perform them , is as an utter exclusion of all your own , so no fair In-let to any of the Popish Rubbish , will worship , meer self service , and unprofitable devotion , for these being only done by man , are neither good , nor accepted of God. But to Teach and maintain , and plead for evil works , as necessary to be done , while we are in this life , and Teach down the doctrine of perfecting holinesse , and perfect purging our selves from all uncleannesse of flesh and Spirit , while we are here in the body ( which Paul taught up ) as a doctrine of devils , and to deny the possibility of performing this duty of not sinning , and make such a grosse state of sin as that was , which David stood in , when he was guilty of adultery and murder , consistent with Gods acceptance of men , and their justification before him , and that the Saints ( as some call them in such a pickle , while they are in sin up to the ears ) even in such a case are not in a condemned , but in a justified estate , and that if the Saints own heart condemn him , and his own conscience tell him that God doth not accept him , and that his estate is bad in such a bad sinful case , and not good , it 's defiled , and lyes , and testifies falsehood to him , and leads him into a wrong opinion of himself , and that the Saints may be blessed men , as David was , having no guile in his spirit , but sincere , upright after Gods own heart , though under , the guilt of so grosse and great sins , when the Scripture saith the contrary ( viz ) that David was upright before God , saving in that matter of Vriah , wherein indeed his very heart was false and rotten , and to affirm to the encouragement of men in their imperfections , and infirmityes , by which name they stile the Saints grossest iniquities , as T.D. does , contradictorily to himself in other places , that the gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience , all which and more , ejusdem Farraginis is done and utter'd by T.D. and such as own him therein , in the 11.19.45.47 . pages of his 1. Pamphlet as they were by word of mouth at the disputes : This is to strengthen the hands of the wicked , that they cannot return from their wickednesse , for how is it possible they should do it , when 't is preacht and believed as impossible to be done ? this is to sow soft pillows under their elbowes , that they may sleep on securely in sin and take their rest , for its all but infirmity , and no inpreachment to his justification , nor to his standing accepted , and in covenant with God that a Saint does , and their 's no condemnation to them that are Saints , and in Christ , no though they be in transgression , in which who is ( say I ) is out of Christ , and not a Saint , and though they walk not after the Spirit ( as all that are Saints and in Christ Jesus do ) but after the flesh : and in a word a very fair In-let to a very worse matter , then that whole mare mortuum of the Popes Beggerly observations , even no better a matter then the very whole bundle of the Devils own Bag , and Beastly Baggage . So then I see not hitherto , and am perswaded never shall , till I come to see , as T.D. does in his floting fancy , many things with his eyes shut , how any Doctrines of the Qua. even such as they and I hold with , any more then what we hold flatly against the Popish Priesthood , do either conclude my complyance with them , or make any way for the incoming and abiding , ( without its own speedier Ruine ) of their Romish Baggage ; or how our parochiall Priesthoods preaching , and practice too , doth any other then uphold the Butt end thereof , and preach their own c●mplyance with those their Brother Ravens in many matters . But T. D's . Biggest Bolt , and weightest Bullet ( as he counts at least ) lyes yet behind , and that is our doctrine of good works as needful to that use of our justification before God , here he iudges that Omne tulit punctum he hath fully hit the white , and that this will do , if all the rest die , and fallen the fault of favouring and fathering the Popish cause upon me as some I●suit , if all the other fail : Good works for necessary uses , ( viz ) to manifest faith to be true , to sanctify , to make meet for the possession , &c. T.D. and his Associates in words , and doctrinally ( more then practically ) maintain as much as any ; but to maintaine good works , not only to the use of our sanctification , but our justification and to justify , not only de●laratively in the sight of men , but also formally in the sight of God , not only to approve a beleiver , but absolve a sinner , p. 8. not only to fit for , but to give right to the inheritance p. 22. not as concurrent and concomitant only , but as cooperative , and constitutive together with faith , and coincident as a cause in the case of our iustification , to let good works be accounted , not only Via ad Regnum , but also carsa Regnandi ( as your Scools distinguish ) yea , and further yet , to dispute it not in these Terms barely of ( good works ) but in these Terms of ( OUR good works ) and lastly , higher yet , to rank them so high in order of causes , as not only Instrumental with faith but a deserving , or meritorious cause of justification ; This is notorious , yea so grosse , and Popish that we may well Rank you ( thinks he ) among the Papists , p. 58. as at least a bringer in of their Baggage , yea now ( quoth T.D. of me p. 14. ) you shew your self a rank Papist indeed . Rep. Ipse dixit T.D. hath said it , who of all those Seers with his eyes in Sandwich , or else where , who , giving heed to him from the least to the greatest , saying of him , This man is the great Power of God , have hi● hitherto bewitched , with his Simonical Sorceries , can do any other then believe it to a Tittle . This stroke enters with so deep a dint , into the thoughts , fancies , and faith of many , that 't is supposed by some , we Qua. shall never be able to lick our selves whole of the deadly wound it brings with it , both to the doctrines that we maintain as Truth , and to our selves also , whom we maintain to be no Rank Papists , nor Rankers of our ●elves with them against the Truth , in our maintaining of tho●e Doctrines : I must therefore ( since the Lord hath laid it upon me , if all the world would take me off it ) take leave here to enlarge so far as to enter the lists , in one short single duel with T.D. alone , about these matters , desiring I. O. to have patience , and stand by a while longer , till I can have while to handle him , and T.D. both at once , in those points wherein they two joyne , and issue out together , making ( as it were ) but one head ( as to the doctrines wherein they oppose ) against the Qua and the rather because I find not I. O. in his book , which elsewise is Brotherly enough with T.D. in bitternesse against the Truth and Qua. intermedling much there ( what ere he thinks ) in this so momentary a matter . As for T. D. I have sundry things , to reckon and reason with him in aboutit . 1 I am to have a talking with thee , T.D. in a few words for a certain abuse or injury done by thee in that passage of thine p. 14. wherein thou relatest that the 3d. Question debated on by us was stated in these Termes ( viz. ) whether OUR good works are the meritorious cause of our justification ? that I not onely held it in the affirmative , but also disputed it in those termes , of OUR good works , in such wise , as the Papists do , so as to shew my selfe a rank Papist ; which injury , in regard of the extent of it to the severall persons wronged , is not more manifest then manifold ; yea , verily seven-fold more then ordinary , for as much as no lesse then seven persons are thereby most grossely abused and belyed ; that is to say not only my selfe , whom onely thou intendedst should suffer by it , but also thy selfe and five of thy chiefe friends too , ( for want of thy forecast ) viz. 2 of them thou cal●t Gentlemen , * and three of thy Master Ministers * whose witnesse thou appealest to , who are all more moderate and gentle Men , then thy selfe it seemes , as to their Testimony in this matter ; for they all , and thy selfe too , who bring'st them to bear witnesse with thee , of the truth in this case , do , with one accord together with thee , testifie another thing , which is the very truth , and no more then the truth viz. ( see p. 58. Of thine own narrative ) that the termes of the 3 d. Question were , whether good . works be the meritorious cause of our justification ? which ( as 't is there said truly ) was expressely affirmed by us , without that figmentitious particle [ OVR ] in the sence thou usest it in , which is of thine own forging , and foisting in , and adding to that term good works ; the adding of which in the eye of any , save such as are not either Arrand fooles , or else ( as the Proverb is ) more Knaves then Fools , which yet is , in plain terms , the plain case of all that wink against the truth , and will not seem to see it , when they do , doth alter the State of the Question , so as to make it utterly another : for who but such as either cannot see , or , which is worse , may see , and will not , can chuse but understand , that whether OVR good works ( at least in that sottish and sordid sense , wherein the Papists hold it ) do justifie ? Is one Question ? And whether Good works do justifie ? Is another ? In which 1 st . sense of the Papist , when they say OVR good works , whose Good Works ( as they call them ) are no better than other mens own are , whose own meerly are all stark naught , I neither do , nor ever did affirm our Iustification to come ; but in the latter ( viz. ) that Good works ( meaning only those of Christs own working in and for us , by the same power and spirit by which he did good works in that person in which he liv'd and dyed at Ierusalem , then whom I know no other that can , without his power , work any Good , I confesse I both then did affirm and own , and as I then did in the power of Christ , so I ever shall both affirm , evince and maintain . And whether it was in this latter sense only , or in the former Popish s●nse in which thou T.D. art impudent enough to assert I held it , he that will in no wise beleive me , if I speak in my own case , nor any that side with me in the truth , but had rather give credit to T.D. let him beleive T.D. with all my heart , provided he do but take his Testiomy to be tru●st where its strongest , for then he cannot but beleive me to be belyed : for that T.D. who in p. 58. Sayes the Question was stated in these Termes [ Good Works ] ( which was the same , T.D. undoutedly that sayes the other ) doth flatly gainsay and clearly contradict that T.D. And prove him a lyar , that saves p. 14. It was stated in these Termes [ OVR good works ] and if any doubt which of these two selfe-overturning Testimonies of T.D. may most securely be taken for truth , seeing they are 2. contrary Testimonies of one and the same man , ( viz. ) that in p. 14. wherein he wrongs me , or that of his own in p. 58. which I appeale to for right , and am willing to be tryed by , as touching his false charge of me , as saying [ OUR good works justifie ] I say unlesse the Reader mean to wrong more , then himselfe or me either by his misbeleife , namely , not only such of my friends , as witness truth with me , but also ● . of T. D's . own most eminent , and credible witnesses , so as to Judge them also to be all Lyars , he must beleive what T.D. sayes p. 58. Namely that I affirm'd [ Good works justifie ] and beleive that to be a lye , which T.D. sayes , p. 14. Namely , that I affirm'd [ OUR good works justifie ] for , T.D. alone , on his own head only , sayes this last , but T.D. together with his 5. Witnesses assert the other . Thus then stands this case between me and thy selfe , T.D. thou arraignest me openly at the Bar before the world , p. 14. as a ra●k Papist , as saying in these Termes that [ OUR good works ] are the meritorious cause of our justification , to which Inditement , I pleading not guilty of saying [ OVR good works [ but [ good works ] are the cause , &c. How wilt thou be tryed ( quoth the impartiall Iudge the honest hearted Reader , that would ●ain find out the truth in the Court of his own conscience ) whether thou be guilty of affirming and disputing the said position expressely in those Termes , or not guilty ? I reply by God and the Country : What evidence bringst thou in ( quoth the righteous Reader to T.D. ) against S.F. whom thou so accusest ? What were the Termes in which he and the Qua. expressely affirm'd it ? The Termes of the Question were these ( quoth T.D. p. 58. ) whether Good Workes he the meritoricus cause of our justification , which was expressely affirmed by them . Thus am I cleared in the sight of God and all men from T. D's . Accusation by the true evidence of T.D. himselfe my accuser ; for we have not Accusatum , but Accusantem Reum confitentem , not the falsely accused , but the falsely accusing Malefactors own confession to his own confutation and confusion , that the position was asserted not in the same Termes , in which at first he related it to be asserted in : so that what need any further witnesse , for ye your selves of all sorts , that read T. D's book , may read the truth in his own Testimony ; but if any , finding T.D. so fickle as to say and unsay , judg him not fit to be heeded in what he sayes , whether against me or against himselfe , and will needs heare what others say in the matter , whether I affirm'd [ OUR good works ] or [ Good works ] only Meritorious . I need not trouble the world with the summoning in of more witnesses , since fas est vel ab hoste doceri such as T.D. hath appealed to himselfe shall stand for me ; for as T.D. sayes p. 58. ( to the proving of T.D. to be a lyar in what he sayes , p. 14. ) that 't was [ Good Works ] so H. Oxenden , I. Boys , N. Barry , T. Seyliard , C. Nicols agree in their witnesse with him , and for ought I find as he sayes p. 58. So they say all ; and he that will not beleive them , doth , what in him lyes , make them to be lyars like him , as well as T.D. in gain-saing p. 14. that truth . which himselfe and they with him do all assert p. 58. does not only make himselfe a lyar , but also , what in him lyes , abuse , not only me and himselfe , but all them also , so as to make them seem lyars also together with him . Now then T. D. Let me expostulate with thee a little on thine own and thy freinds behalf : couldst thou not b●ly me in some better way then that p. 14. whereby thou givest the lye ( if men were such fooles as to beleive thy single self before thy selfe and 5. witnesses ) both to thy selfe and them all in that truth ye all 6. testify together , p. 58 ? if thou wouldst in no wise spare me , who can expect no sparing , but rather a shooting out of your poysoned arrowes against me , even lying words , who also can and do forgive thy forgery so far as it reaches only to the ill reputation of my selfe ; yet thou mightest have been contented to have spared thy friends ; thy Gentlemen and Ministers , who , ( as thou saift of them in thy Epistle to the Reader ) are Witnesses of the Termes of the Questions agreed to by the Qua. to free thee from the suspition of a partiall Relato● so as not to have laid them lyable to suspition of lying , by thy lying , p. 14. against thy own and their true Testimony , p. 58. or if not them , yet at least have spared thy selfe so far as not to have stained thy self , and thine own reputation , and not have subjected thy selfe in the hearts of all , to not only a shrew'd suspition , but welny a certain censure of forgery , so much as thou hast done in handling thy ill matters no better , and making thy invented evill-intending Tale hang no more handsomly together then it does ; for which , how far soever I forgive thee and thou in favour to thy selfe mayst possibly give pardon to thy own selfe supposed Saintship , as freely as thou dost to David , and all Saints in theirs , in thy own foulest faults , and abominations , yet every Reader , that loves the truth , which thou hast wronged , will remember , and not so readily forget , how eminently the Lord hath left T.D. in his envious undertakings to manifest the Qua. folly to all men , instead thereof most palpably to manifest his own : neither when the Lord●ises up to visit , and to reckon , and to enter into judgment with him for it will the seeming Saint without confession and forsaking so easily , as he supposes , find from him the forgiveness of his falshood . Henceforth therefore T.D. take heed of lying at all to thy own hurt ; or if for want of love to it , thou must needs bely the Truth and its Children , for which wo , and no lesse then the Lake must be thy Portion , yet for thy credits sake a while have a care another time of lying so directly against thy self ; but remember that Opo●te● mendacem esse memorem , it behoves a lyar to have his wits better about him , then thou had'st in this busines , least by going about to wrong another a great deal , he do not only in foro Dei , but hominum also , before men wrong himself not a little ; as thou hast done , who at this time was●t not thy Crafts-Master , so much as thy Craft was thine , to catch thee in the Snare , which thou laid'st , and to pull thee into the pit , and draw thee down into the ditch , which thyself digg'dst for another ; for though thou travailedst with iniquity , and conceivedst mischief , and broughtest forth false-hood against thy fained-foe but unfained friend S.F. yet is it in such a foolish unsubtle manner , that the mischief of the Serpent , who was scarce like his cunning-self in the mannaging of this matter , returns ( and so it ever must till it be bruised , let him lye never so wisely ) upon his own head , and his violent dealing , and viola●ion of the truth comes unawares upon his own pate ; So Honi Soir , qui mal perse , evil still to him , that evil thinks , and howbeit fallere fallentim v●x est fraus ( as they speak ) for a man to deceive himself in that very thing , wherein he hoped to deceive another , is one of the most honest and harmlesse peices of deceit , that I know , and the least of all to befound fault with , yet so it hath happened to T.D. in this one peice of his Arche●y against me and the Truth , that he hath ( as he saith he intended to do p. 50. ) beat the Devil at his own weapon , and outshot him in his bow , yea , and overshot himself so exceedingly al●o , as that — Not aiming right , when he bent his Bow To shoot at a Pigeon , he kild a Crow . That then I affirmed good works to deserve Iustification , I own , and still affirm the same ; but I deny that , that I there affirmed , and here I affirm that I then did and still do deny the Papist best works , which are not good , what ere they call them , to deserve Iustification , or OUR own best works either , who know no good works , that we have , but what Christ , who works no evil works , by his power worketh in , and by us , which , as they are done by him in us , are not ours but distinctively from ours 2 Tim. 1.7 . Tit. 3.5 . called his , and as they are done by us , throw his power in us , are called our works , Isa. 26.12 . for as he doth them in us Mat. 10.20 . 2 Cor. 13.3 . 1 Cor. 14.25 . and worketh in us , both to will and do them , they are truly his , and as we work them in and by that power he gives , may ( yet not in such sense as what we do of our selves ) be called our own Phil. 2.12.13 . yea if we speak of what good works Christ did in that person only , in which he appeared at Ierusalem , while we witnesse not the same done by him in our selves , we cannot call those works OURS , to justification more truly then Papists can , who beleive as well as Protestants what he there did , though they never look to do the like : — Quae non fecimus ipsi , non ea nostra voco . What he did in that person , and not OVRS , is his only yet , and not OVRS , but if we speak of what we do not only in our own persons , but our own wills , power and wisdom , abstract from him , and the leadings of his Light and Spirit , I say Quae sic fecimus ipsi , haec ego nostra voco , these I call truly and only OVRS , and so doth the Scripture Rom. 10.3.4 . Phil. 3.9 . and as for what OVR persons do in his light according to his will , in the true movings of his Spirit , and by no other but his own Power , Quae nos fecimus ipsi sic , ea nostra voco , these , being partly ours , though principally his , I have a liberty from the Lord truly enough to denominate by that name of OVRS , yet as 't is fit he should have the perheminence , as to the name , who is not the cheif Actor , but the only Author of them , I rather chuse mostly to call them His , though done in and by us , and so again , Quae nos fecimus ipsi , vix ea nostra voco . So there are 1. good work ; which are only Christs , and not OVRS , and and by these he deservedly stood justified in the sight of God , in his own person , which if he had not done ( and had he sinned he could not have done ) he could never have bin a high Priest able to justify others , or sufficient to save to the uttermost , such as come to God by him ; for such a high Priest it became us to have , who is holy , harmless , undefiled , and seperate from sinners himself , or else he could never seperate sin from us , Heb. 7.26.27.28 . 2. Again their are good works ( so called ) which are only OVRS , and not Christs , and such are all the best that we work without him of our selves , even all our own Righteousnesse and Righteousnesses , which are as an unclean thing , as a menstru●us Rag , Isa. 64.6 . as dung and losse and not gain , nor any way profitable to save or deliver , Isa. 57.12.13 . Phil. 3.4.10.10 . And by these though done in mans willings , and runnings , in a way of outward conformity to the letter of the Law shall no flesh ever be justified any more then Paul was , for these are not Christs ( all whose works are meritorious , and acceptable to God , and deserving no Condemnation that I know of , and consequently deserving iustification before God ; but mans own Righteousnesse , as that of the Iewes was , Rom. 9 , 32.10.3.2.3 . and Pauls was , till he came to the Light ( though for want of coming to the Light , T.D. in his dark minde saith Paul had no righteousnesse that was not Christs p , 22. ) is meritorious of no more acceptance then Cains Sacrifice had , which was iustly and deservedly rejected , because its the evill doer still , that does that good , which God ( what ere the sinner calls it ) accounteth evill . 3. Again there are good works which in different respects are called ( truly enough ) both Christs , and OVRS ( viz. ) OVRS , as done in and by Our persons , Christs , as done only by his power in us , and by these last ( call them , as ye will ) Christs , as done by him in OVR persons , or OVRS , as done by us in his power , is the justification of all , that ever were or shall be justified , both deserved and effected , and not by what he did without them in that single person that once liv'd and dyed at Ierusalem , while the same righteousnesse was and is not by that same power of his fulfilled within themselves ; and so 1 st . detesting all that as Rotten Rags , that 's done by meer man without Christ , and disowning it utterly , as giving no influence to mans justification , both honouring and duly owning all that righteousnesse , that was wrought by Christ without man , as perfect , pretious , glorious , acceptable to God , unspeakably usefull to us , and truly meritorious at least to his own justification , that he might become ( as el●e he could not ) a meet Mediatour for man , this 3d. and last I own only as the meritorious , and perfectly effectual cause of mans justification ; and howbeit T.D. is so blind as to deny our satisfaction by that righteousnesse whereof Christ is the Author p. 23. and to beleive that he that holds justification by this righteousnesse of Christ , that 's wrought in the Saints by his Spirit cannot be saved , p. 38. For he owns this sentence there for truth ( viz. ) that any man that holds that principle of being justified by a righteousnesse within us , living and dying i● that principle cannot be saved . Yet I not only say , but see so much , and hope ( as great a Malefactor as T.D. p. 54. makes me for it ) to make any ( save such as seeing will not see ) to see the same , that he cannot be saved , who holds it not , but looks for Salvation in that Gospel , which T.D. Preaches , of a Iustification by a Christ onely without him ; and that he may fill up his floutings at it , and compleat his cursing of it , in the same Phrase he sc●●fingly renders my speaking this Truth in , at the Dispute p. 28. I say again to all People , That Gospel , which T.D. and his fellows Preach , of Salvation by Christ without them , without the Revelation of Christ and his Righteousness within them , will not bring men to Heaven . Indeed People it will not . And this is that I am to have the second Talking with T.D. about , before I come again to I.O. ( viz. ) this point of Iustification , whether it , which we say is by Christs Righteousness and Good Works alone , and not any thing that is done by us , simply as of our selves , be by the Righteousness of Christ without us onely ( as T.D. saith it is ) or by that , which he performs in us also by the sam● Power , as we affirm it . In the Prosecution of which matter , which way soever the cause should seem to go in the Consciences of such as are considerate , yet to the eye of every ordinary Observer of him T.Ds. weaknesses , and absurdities are so gross and obvious , that he that Runs may Re●d them , sundry of which I shall give the Reader a taste of as I go along , that he may know how to Relish him in the Rest. Hear then O ye deaf , look and see ye blind Believers and Admirers of T.D. and his applauded Pamphlet , how he ( to turn his own Terms to G. W. p. 24. upon himself ) interferes , and cuts one leg against another , and is not sensible of it ; and how he contradicts and confounds himself , and that so closely , cunningly and curiously , that neither himself , nor any of those who look , like himself , without their eyes , can see it , though to all others , I confess , 't is easie to be , or rather hard not to be discern'd . T. D. Tells the world , that the Terms of the Question were , whether Good Works ( Mark ) be the meritorious cause of Iustification p. 58. and that this was expresly affirmed bylus : and saith T.D. This being so gross & Popsh , L. Howard one of the Qua. present at the Dispute hath ( witness Nath. Barry ) since denied that they did so affirm . Rep. By the way let me tell thee Reader , as from L. Howard , that though he denied , that we affirm'd Iustification by our Good Works , which assertion the Priests falsly cha●ge us with , yet ( notwithstanding N. Bar●yes bearing false witness against him ) he did not deny that we affirm Iustification by Good Works , neither is he or any of us ashamed to a●firm at this present , that Iustification is by Goo● Works ; but ( Mark ) this ( quoth T.D. ) is gross and Popish . So then you have T.Ds. sence on one hand thus ( viz. ) it s not onely Rank Popery to affirm OVR Good Works ( though by OVRS , if ever the Qu. affirm it , they mean Christs Good Works in us cal'd OVRS , Isa. 26. and not meerly Our own ) but also gross and Pop●sh , to affirm Good Works to be deserving Iustification : I wot not well what works they are by which T.D. looks to be justified , seeing he denies it to be by Good Wo●ks ; for I cannot believe him ( as bad as he is ) to be so bad yet , as to believe any to be justified by bad , evil or wicked works , though he blushes not to say , that under the guilt of such bad works as Adultery and murder David was , and so other Saints , p. 38. ( but yet no wicked ones ) may be justified : And in another , p. 45. that the Gospel gives live upon imperfect obedience , which , though he do no wickedness , is at best but an evil work ; nor wor I well where a man shall scape T.Ds. censure of being Popish , unless he run away from Resting and Relying on Christ , as well as on himself for Iustification ; for even Christs best Works are no more than Good , as 't is true that all OVR best , that are not done by him in us , are worse then naught . But were it so in Truth ( but I trow it is not as T.D. sayes , that to affirm Good Works meritorious of Iustification , is so gross and Popish , that they have reason to be asham'd that own it ) Heu quam turpe est Doctori cum culpar edarguit ipsum ? How much more reason then any other hath T.D. to be ashamed of his shameful doings , Qui alterum incusat probri , de qu● ipsum se intueri oportet , who condemns others as gross and Popish for the self-same Doctrine , which he himself holds out in terminis , and yet creeps from under that condemnation , slides his own neck out of that collar , and , dum cod●m cum illis haret luto , condemns not himself as guilty of the same defilement , but rather to God and all men commends himself as clear and clean ? For whoever heard T.D. say of himself ( as he sayes of the Qua. they are ) I am gross and Popish in affirming that Good Works deserve Iustification ? Yet that he affirms the same as well as the Qua. whose affirmation of it ( to the contradicting of himself ) he denies ; I need do no more in proof thereof , then send the Reader to p. 14 , 15. of his own 1. Paper , out of which every Puny may fully prove it to himself , for there in Answer to my Argument a Con●a●iis , which was to this effect , without that Term of OVR in such a sense as the Papists use it , ( viz. ) Evilworks are the meritorious cause of our Condemnation , therefore Good Works are the meritori●●s cause of our Non-Condemnation or Iustification , among several frivolous conceits , upon which he denies the consequences of my Argument ; T.D. Replyes thus , granting the Rule of Contraries will allow so to Argue ( viz. ) Evil works , which are the violation of the Law , deserve danmation , Ergo Good Works , which are the fulfilling of the Law , deserve Salvation ; and we know no Good Works such but Christs : In all which he hath said no more than the self-same , which , in substance , is uttered and intended by our selves ; for we both speak of and mean no other Good Works , when we say , Good Works deserve Iustification , then , such as are Christs , and the fulfilling of the Law in himself , and in us by his Power , whose works onely are Good , and all whose Works are so Good , that the Law is fulfilled by them ; and so not Condemnation , but Iustification still deserved ; for where no Condemnation is deserved ( as it is not by any Good Works ) there Non-condemnation or Iustification is ; For by every work the Law is either fulfilled or broken , but by neither every , nor by any work that 's truly good ( as every one of Christs are , whether done in his own , or by him in our persons , or by us in him his Power and Spirit ) is the Law transgrest , violated or broken ; therefore by every Good Work obeyed , kept , fulfilled ; and by every work either Condemnation or Non-Condemnation is deserved , but Condemnation is not by any truly good work ; therefore Non-Condemnation is deserved by every good work ( Taliter ) and by all , and onely good works by which is fulfilled the Royal Law , Iam. 2.8 . which works no ill at all to another ( Totaliter ) Yet T.D. judges us ( unjustly ) as Popish , who hold no otherwise then thus , and himself Anti-Popistical in holding the same ; to whom therefore I say ( to say no more of his self-contradiction in saying of Good Works , that they do , and yet do not deserve Justification ) si in me iniqius es Iudex T.D. condemnabo e●dem ego ●e crimine , if T.D. were as just as 't is sure he is unjust in condemning us for Popery , he is so much the more unjust in that he condemns not himself for the same , since he that judges us so , for so holding , holds the same , & the more justly is he to be condemned by all , for not condemning himself as Popish together with us . And now whereas T.D. supposes he hath added much to the alteration of the state of the Question as we hold it , and to the enervating of the force of the Consequence of my Popish Argument ( as he calls it ) by that weak , short and imperfect Reply he gave to it at the Dispute , and that more long , then strong addition of many impertinent passages in his Accountative Repetition of it ; I shall here take them a little briefly under consideration : and likewise the rest of that refusely stuff , which is Replyed by T.D. up and down in his Book , to my self R.H. and G.W. about this point of Iustification , and such as were touch't on as pertaining to it , that being rid of the Rudeness and Reasonlessess of T.Ds. Religion , which I.O. in his piece of Anti-Quakerism interests not himself in , so far as I find any where , unless in p. 127. where his words seem to sent of such a Justification in sin , as T.D. dreams of , I may trouble I.O. no more with the Talk thereof , when I begin again to talk with him . To my n●ging Contrarioram contraria est Ratio T.D. thou Replyest thus , p. 14 , 15. there is not Par Ratio * for the merit of good and evil works , and that they are not abs●lute contraries , because our evil works are perfectly evil , but our Good works ( ●aist thou ) are but impe●fectly good ; yea , Isa. 64.6 . all our Righteousnesses ( not our unrighteousnesses onely ) are as filthy Rags . Rep. To this I retu●n as followes ( viz. ) If by that Te●m OVR Good Works thou intendest no other then those of your own , which ye call good , when thou sayest of them , that they are but imperfectly good , I yield to it as Truth indeed , that your good works and your evil works are not absolute contraries , one to another , but rather both alike of one and the same sort , stamp and general kind , that is to say , both of them evil works : for your evil works being by your own confession perf●ctly evil , your good works ( as ye stile them for good they , are not while done by the evil-doer , that hates the light ) being al●o by confession but imperfectly good ; and for , so far from being truly good , that ( what ever they are in your own ) in Gods Account they are no better then evil , they are really evil too , yea● as to the nature done in ( though not as to their mea●ure ●as realy evil as the other , and not your unrighteousnes ; onely , but also your own Righteousness being by the like true concession , but filthy Rags , they are not absolute Contra●ies , but Con-naturals , as your best good and worst evil is ; for as two evil spirits may be both Devils , though not Devils both of one Hair , but one a little b●n●ker , t'other respectively somewhat whiter then the other , so your two sorts of works , whereof ye call one good , the other evil , one your Righteousness , t'other unrighteousness , are both alike , evil and wickedness , though one carries a fairer face before it than the other . Neither did I ( as thou dost pag. 54 that the Gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience ) then affirm ( and so G.W. tells thee p. 20. of his Reply to thee , who either didst or would'st not it seems understand me so well as he & others ) that imperfect works and the Righteousness , which is as filthy Rags , do deserve Iustification ; neither did I ever , nor shall I now go about to prove by the Rule of Contraries , a contrary desert of your unrighteousness or evil works , and of such Righteousness and Good Works as yours are , which both you and I acknowledge are but imperfect , and so no better then evil , unrighteousness , and filthy Rags ; so as to conclude from thence that as your evil merits damnation , so your good merits Iustification : nay , in stead of Arguing about these from Contra●iorum C●ntra●ia est Rati● , of contra●ies there 's contra●y consequence . I must say rather , Pa●ium Par est Ra●i● , Similium Similis consequentia , things that are alike , are of a like desert ; therefore your evil and your good in name differing , yet in kind agreeing , being evil and filthy Rags , both alike , do both alike as truely deserve condemnation from him , as they are both alike ab●mina●ion before the Lord. But if by that Term OVR Good W●rks , of which thou ●ayest they are but imp●fectly good , thou intendest those of Christ● , own wo●king in and by us , and all his Saints , of which ( he be●ng the Authour , though we in and under him the Actours thereof ) I said before , Vix ea nostra voco , I deny any of these to be as thou callest them , but imperfectly good , and both affirm and shall prove them all to be really good , and ( as so ) truly contrary to both your confessed evil , and but conceited good works , which yet really are but evil ; and not onely so but perfectly good also , and in that respect more absolutely contrary to all your own both worst and best work● , the best of which though cal'd by you at least imperfectly g●od , are yet at best no better in kind then as perfectly evil , as the other , saving the baldness of that Phrase ( perfectly evil ) which yet being thy own thou maist the better , and must however bear it from me . In proof of which , though it seem but a mad mans mad Divinity to you more mad Divines , and possibly a meer Paradox to many more then meer Parish Priests , yet let it be considered . That every thing that can be truly ( according to God , & not after the manner of erring men onely ) said to be good , or Righteousness , though so but in part , yet is as perfectly so , as it is truly said so to be : for howbeit all that , which is but in part , is by our Academical Rabbies , who count all plain Countrey Russet-Coats but Rusticks in comparison of themselves , counted but imperfect , and commonly so called , as if in pa●t and imperfect were ever Synonomous , and all one , so that in their benighted minds , they oft render that place , 1 Cor. 13. as T. D. till he was corrected , did at the Dispute , thus ( viz. ) when that which is ( perfect ) is come , then that which is ( imperfect ) whereas that which is ( in part ) and but aliqualiter , not yet aequaliter or so perfect as the other is , is opposed to that which is more perfect to its degree only , yet as to its nature , which different degrees do never alter ( for that gradus non variant naturam Rei , is received for truth by all ) that which is truly good , Righteousness , Light , Uprightness , Holiness , Truth , though but some part of that fuller measure that once shall be , yet is not onely Really the same , but as perfectly the same in suo genere , as that which is perfect in degree also is in its kind ; that is to say , as perfectly Good , as perfectly Righteousn●●s , &c. as Good , Righteousness , Light , Grace , Uprightness , Holiness , Truth is in the highest measure . Every d●am of Grace is perfectly Grace , every degree of true Good perfectly Good , every grain of Holiness perfectly Holiness , as every spark of fire is perfectly fire and perfect fire , and every drop of water perfect water as well as the whole Ocean , as every Babe ( as to the nature ) is perfectly a man and a perfect man , as he is that is a man in stature : Holiness in the least measure of it , is the gift of God , and I know no imperfect gift that he giveth , who is the Giver of every good and pe●fect gift , and every one of whose gifts is perfect : all that is perfect is of God , and all that is perfect , which is of God , from whom no imperfect thing can come ; and all true Good and Holiness is of God , and all Sin , Unholiness , Unrighteousness & Imperfection is of the Devil , and all , that is imperfect , whic his of the Devil , from whom no thing that 's good or truly perfect can come ; and all sin is properly nothing but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , transgression , defect and imperfection it self , and whoever sinneth is born of the Devil , and he that is of the D●vil ( while so ) is not born of God , nor in a state of Salvation , nor in the Election , but in the Reprobation and Rejection , and what is born of God , in that state , sinneth not , and he that sinneth not is not in a state of Condemnation , for he doth Righteousness , and he that doth Righteousness is Righteous as God is Righteous , Ho●y as he is Holy , Pure at he is Pure and Perfect as he , whose Child he is , is perfect , and is ( as so ) not in the Alienation , Reprobation and Rejection , but in the Love , Acceptation or Iustification . And whereas our Divines talk , as if that only were perfect , to which nothing can be added , that 's a false ignorant , and blind assertion , for as there is a perfection ( such is that of God ) which admits of no addition , so there is a true perfection that is without any ●mperfection sin a●d corruption , which is capable of addition , & to which more maybe added , and such is that of man , who may be truly said to be perfect and not imperfect , & yet to grow on to a fuller measure and stature of that divine nature , grace , and holynesse , which was perfect and not imperfect before , though not so perfect , but that a greater degree in it may be attained ; as he that thrives in iniquity , which is defect and imperfection , becomes thereby more and more imperfect : Adam in innocency was perfect , and so perfect in righteousnesse that he had no unrighteousnesse or imperfection , and though not without tempta●ion ( as Christ was not , who never sinned ) yet clean from all transgression : Yet not so perfect as to be utterly uncapable of any addition to that glory he then stood in . And Christ Iesus him●elfe was a perfect child of God from the womb as to the divine nature he was born in , yet grew in stature , and was one who did no evill , in whom was no sin , nor was any guile found in him , nor was he in a damnable condition , and that gift of the grace and wisdome of God , that was in him , was perfect grace and wisdome ; and the least degree of grace that any Saint hath is perfect grace , a perfect and not an imperfect gift of God , according to the Rule and Measure of which as every one walketh , he is so far perfect , though but a Babe , and yet Saints may grow therein from Babes in nature to young men in Stature , which of young men , though it is not the highest stature in the Church here on earth yet obtains to so much strength as to overcome the wicked one , and from thence to be old men of full growth and age , more intimately acquainted with God the Father , and to the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God , the very measure of the Stature of the fulnesse of Christ himselfe : And therefore thy saying T.D. that Babes and young men are imperfect p. 18. as I do not , and that true grace is imperfect , and true obedience and good works are imperfectly good , and sin and evill perfectly evill and such like , is such a Whim-wham , as shewes thy selfe to be yet so imperfect ( as no Babe in Christ is ) in thy understanding of the things of God ; and such a saying as hath nothing in it ( if I may without absurdity Tune it back to thee in thy own imperfect Tone ) but perfect imperfection flat , falshood , deep darknesse , and meere confusion . So that all true good is perfectly good , and all that 's really evill is properly evill , all true light of what kind soever in the least degree is in its kind perfectly light , and all darknesse properly darknesse , and all that 's properly and truly term'd righteousnesse in the meanest measure is as perfectly righteousnesse , as all kind of unrighteousnesse , and as all sin is really the transgression of a Law , for there 's no transgression where is no Law , and the least transgression of the Law in the least part is really or properly sin , so every act of true obedience to the Light , or Law , is , though but in part , and not so perfect a conformity , yet truly and properly and perfectly a●co f●●mi●y to it , and not a violation of it ; and such a perfect Act of obedience as is not only not disobedience , but so absolutely contrary to an act of disobedience , as that it deserves not the reward of an of act disobedience , which is condemnation , but consequently the contrary , which is non-condemnation , which can amount to no less then acceptation , or , which is much at one , Iustification from all guilt ( for there 's none contracted ) and salvation from that wrath , which is to come and which comes upon none for any obedience , but on all the Children of disobedience , only . Thus every thing , but sin and imperfection , is perfectly , what it is truly , and tho●e works are not truly good ( however falsly so cal'd ) that are not perfectly good , and what work is truly good is perfectly good . And of this sore are all the works of Christs working by his Spirit in our persons ( viz. ) as truly and perfectly good in genere , if not gradu , as those he wrought in the same Spirit and Power in his own ▪ who never yet did any work that is evill , or but imperfectly good ; Yea as truly an perfectly good , as both the worst and the best that you do without him are really and properly evill : and consequenly being contrary to your evill works , which merit condemnation , meritorious of that contrary reward of acceptation , or justification . And no lesse then this last , dost thou T.D. to the contradicting thy selfe in thy other sayings confesse to us thy selfe in these words , evill works , which are the violation of the Law , deserve damnation , Ergo good works which are the fulfilling the Law deserve Salvation , and as thou saift , so say we , we know no good works such , but Christs ; and , say I , I know no works of Christ that ●re not such , and that deserve nor Salvation , Whether those that were wrought by him in that single person , which was crucified 〈◊〉 Ierusalem , or those that are wrought by him in his Saints ; though thou seem'st to thy self to be so wise ( whose folly therefore is the more manifest to all men ) as to know a Christ and as to know some operations and good works and righteousnesse of that Christ , wrought by him alone in his Saints , and by them received from him , and whereof Christ himselfe is the Author , which thou art so far from owning any justification by and from esteeming so highly of as they deserve , that ( as to any such gain as iustification deserved for us , or derived to us thereby ) thou disclaimst them utterly as meere dung , and losse , and filthy rags , and ( absit Blasphemia ) doom'st them down to hell as deserving no better then your wickednesses and your own ( miscal'd ) righteousnesses do , the merit of which is neither more nor lesse then condemnation ; and all this he that is minded to trace thee p. 15.21.22.23 . in thy Meandrous talkings to and fro , in and out , where thou dancest the Hay up and down in the Clouds of contradiction and confusion , cannot chuse but take notice of , unlesse he be so blind , as that his eyes can see no farther then his nose reaches . For ( mark ) p. 21. thou I fasly chargest us with the guilt of that sin of the Iewes Rom. 10.3.4 . ( viz. ) making our own righteousnesse our justification . 2. Thou relatest G.W. clearing us ofthat , saying that we do not make our own righteousnesse our justification , but the righteousness of God is that we testifie , being made manifest in us , according to the Scripture , Phil. 3.9 . Not our own righteousnesse wich is ●f the Law , ( that is ) any personal conformity to the Law in that outward letter , that we can make by any ability of ours without the power of Christ , such was that of the Iews and Pauls establishing to himself , as his gain , and righteousnesse before his conversion to that of Christs , for that and no other is it , which Paul calls his own , and the Iewes own , and not that which Christ wrought in him , & cloth'd him with and enabled him to perform ( as thou blasphemously bolt'st it out ) but that which is through the faith of Christ , the righteousnesse which is of God by faith : to which though thou seem'st to assent in these words ( viz. ) the Apostle by his own righteousnesse understands [ His ] personall conformity to the Law , and by Christ righteousnesse , that which is of Christ made his by faith , by which Terme ( His ) if thou intendest ( His ) as abstract from Christ , his weak strivings in his own strength to keep the Law , and not that personall conformity to it , he was at last enabled to by the Spirit and Power of Christ intimated , Rom. 8.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. Thou fallest in with us , who make that genuine distinction between all meere mans righteousnesse and all that righteousnesse that is of Christ. But now , as if thine eyes were grown too dimme to discern that distinction , thou blindly blendest these two together again into own , putting no difference at all between O V R good works , or meer mans righteousnesse , which in his own will , wisdom , strength , and vain Imagination he works beside the light , and out of Christ , and those Good Works , or that righteousnesse , which is of God alone , which by the pure Power and Spirit of Christ is wrought in and by them , and which they by him are enabled to perform , which is specifically one and the very same with that in Christ himselfe , from whom it is of God through the faith of Christ made theirs , or made over to them that is not meerly and imaginarily ( as the Priesthood prates ) accounted , and imputed , but really and truly derived and imparted to them , and revealed ( as it s said to be Rom. 1.17 . ) from faith to faith in the light of the Gospel to them that beleive therein , so that of the fulnesse of that righteousness of God that dwels in him , they all receive grace for grace to the true washing , Iustification , Sanctification , and Salvation of them from all that unrighteousnesse by which they became guilty before God , while they stood in no other righteousnesse but their own . Yea that righteousnesse of Christ in his Saints , which is in kind the selfe same with that in himselfe , thou both denyest to avail one iot to justification , and also confoundest into one and the self same with that of meer mans own working which from God is for ever to be confounded . Witnesse thy own words who saift thus T.D. I deny justification by Christ within us ; — we deny our justification by that righteousnesse in us whereof Christ is the Author — two things are indeed meant by the name of Christ his person and his operations in us , and I deny the latter , but assert the former for our righteousnesse to justification . Rep. Oh gro's , horrid , hideous and fordid ! Are not the Righteousness and the operations of Christ in his Saints the same that were in his own flesh ? are they not of the same with , validity , and desert , being his own still , whether done in himselfe , or in us , and as truly and perfectly good , being done by Christ , who can work nothing but that which is truly good and perfect , whether in his Saints or himselfe ? And suppose every Title of thy Tattle were true , that thou telst us p. 15. ( viz. ) that those works that merit must not be due , and his good works , who owes none ( though who that is that owes none to God and from whom to God none are due I know not , and whether it became not Christ to be holy , harmlesse , undefiled , separate from sinners , & whether he ought not in all things to be like his brethren I 'le not stand here to dispute , but lea●e to Heb. 2.17.26 . to determine ) and yet whether all that he doth in what person so ere he doth it in , doth not merit , I need not prove to a wi●e man , for he will not put me to it . But I say , suppose it to be all true , that his good works , who owes none and from whom none are due , and is an infinite person , do as truly deserve non condemnation , and his e●ill works , from whom only good works are due , as from a finite creature to an infinite Creator , do truly deserve damnation , the desert of the obedience of the one arising from the dignity of the Subject by which it s performed , as the desert of the others disobedience from the dignity of the Object against which it it is committed : yet what makes all this to the mending of thy muddy matter , who wouldst make Christ himselfe and his good works and operations of righteousnesse in his Saints of no such moment as to merit or effect their justification before God ; is not Christ the Subject by which , though the Saints ( who are his body flesh & bones ) are the Subject in which those works of his are perform'd in● them , as well as the Subject by which those were done , that were done in his naturall body in the dayes of his fleshly being here on earth ? yea is not he the subject in which also those in his Saints are performed , while what ere he doth by them he doth in them , & what they do by him they do in him , & the person & Subject being the same , is not the dignity of the doer as deserving when he does good , or obeys the will of God in one age , place & person , as well as when in another ? & does what righteousness he works in and by his , or destroy the merit thereof , body more then that which he wrought in and by that body which was the head ? and and is not Christ Iesus , who is known to be in all them that are not Reprobates , 2 Cor. 13.5 . and who is the same yesterday , to day , and forever , Heb. 13.8 . as infinite a Person now , and as infinite in all his operations as ever , and are not his operations as good , and his Righteousness ( which thou for want of his Wisdom , being ignorant that God calls it an Everlasting Righteousness ( i.e. ) that which is infinite or without end . Dan 9.24 . callest but finite , p. 39. and yet , in thy wonted way of self-contradiction , infinite also , saying , we cannot contain an infinite Righteousness in us , and the Righteousness which God works in us , is but finite , so making either two Righteousnesses of God , whose Righteousness is but one , or else distinguishing that one into two sorts , finite and infinite , which is but one in kind ( viz. ) infinite and everlasting , though dwelling in different degrees in God , Christ , and the Saints but well maist thou do this , whilest thou makest so many Christs as thou didst at the Dispute , and hast done since , in thy crooked Account thereof ] I say , is not that Everlasting Righteousness of his working in the Saints , and bringing near to them , Isa. 46.13 . as everlasting , as infinite as of old , and of as infinite value , every where as it is any where ? in that Body of his whereof he is the head , as in that Person which was the head of his body ? Yet T.D. denies it to be of any worth to justifie , and affirms it to be but mans own Righteousness , which is dung , loss and rags , procuring no more to him by desert then his wickedness , which merits no more then Condemnation ; and in further evidence of this , let thy own words p. 15. and p. 22. be well considered , and compared where thou sayest thus . T. D p 22. Do you think that the Righteousness which the Apostle calls his own , Phil. 3.9 . was not Christs ? Had he any Righteousness which he had not received ? And yet that Righteousness which was in the Apostl , never was in Christ as the subject , but was wrought in him by Christ as an efficient cause : and Christ had an inherent Righteousness , in respect of which he was said to know no sin , and to be a Lamb without spot or bl●mish ; Are not here then two Righteousnesses ? And they serve for two different ends , the one for our Justification , the other for our Sanctification , the one gives us a Right to the inheritance of the Saints in Light , the other makes us meet for Possession . And p. 15 , all Our Righteousnesses ( not our unrighteousnesses onely ) are as filthy Rags . Rep. Oh Rare and Base ! What Whirle-pools , and Whirle-gigg , and Whimseyes , and Gimcracks are here ? Compound all this deep D●vinity of T.Ds. together . some of which but not all ( for other some the blackest of his Brethren I believe will blush at ) is that which others store themselves with by stealth out of the Common standing-stock of Theology , which few Divines dare stir a foot from ; and here is such a manifest Mess of medly , such a heap of Hotch-potch , as scarce ever crept out so openly upon the Stage before since the world , which should be Christs School , was by its Disputers and Schollers made their Fencing-School against Christ and his Disciples . I shall Segregate the absurdities of this absolute parcel , in which else they may by unseen , being jumbled together among some undeniable Truths , and set them down in their own Colours , to the view of all . 1. Mark Reader , How T. D. divides the Righteousness of Christ inherent in himself , and imparted from him to his Saints ; which who is not so Blear-eyed that every single object seems double to him , cannot but say and see is one and the self same , into two Righteousnesses , one of which ( though he confesses they are both Christs and wrought , by him alone as the efficient ) was notwithstanding ( as he sayes ) never in Christ as the subject at all . 2. How these two points hang together , as well as things can do , that are all to pieces , ( viz. ) that Paul had no Righteousness , which was not Christs , and which he had not received from Christ , and yet that which he received from Christ , Christ never had in himself , nor was it ever inherent in him : which if it doth not contradict the School Ma●im● , which no well - skil'd Scholler disowns of , Nil dat id quod in se prius non habet vel formaliter vel virtualiter saltem & eminenter , nothing can give infuse or derive that to another , which it first hath not in it self , and which resides not in it self as the Subject , wherein the same one way or other is , or formally or vertually inherent ( which I 'le not spend time here so nicely or exactly to examine ) yet I am sure it expresly and egregiously disagrees with those undeniable Testimonies of the Scripture , which faith not onely Iohn 3.27 . A man can receive nothing ( that is of God , Grace , Righteousness , &c. ) except it be given him from above ; but also that in Christ are bid all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge , that in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily , Col. 2.3 , 9. That the Spirit of Grace , a manifestation of which is given to every man to profit withal , according to the measure of the gift of Christ , who taketh of his own Glory , Grace , &c. and giveth to his Saints , distributing to everyone severally as he will , is by the Father given first to him not by measure , that his Disciples may also , as they do , of that fulness which dwells first in him receive of the same in some measure Grace for Grace , John 7.16 . and 3.34 . And this stops that creep-hole whereby T. D. wots he winds himself out p. 37. where he saith , Christs Righteousness in the Saints was never formally existent in him as the spirits are in the brain : for as the spirits are in the brain , and communicated thence to other parts of the body , so the Graces of the Spirit are all in Christ the head , and communicated to all the Members of his body , as truly and formally as the Typical ointment that was poured on Aarons head , was communicated from thence to his beard ; and ran down to the skirts of his clothing . 3. Note well , how that very Righteousness which was wrought in the Apostle , after his Convertion , by Christ and received from Christ , and so by T. Ds. own confession , was Christs , is by T. D. first divided off from that Righteousness , which was inherent in Christ , though it be Christs as well as the other , and indeed as undivided from it as Christ , who is indivisible , is within himself ; and set apart and aloof from it as quite another , us if it were scarce any kin to that that dwelt in Christ the head ; and not onely so , but secondly pacht and packt up into one with Pauls own Righteousness , which he gloried in before his Convertion ( for what Paul calls his own , was that he had of old , and had left and lost too as dung and loss ( as much as he once thought it gain ) before ere he received any from Christ and disgraced and digraded so far below it self , and its own true worth and dignity , as to be Ranks with Pauls own , yea to be made and counted on as no other but his own , the self same as he and the wicked Iewes , as T.D. sayes p. 21. who were as ignorant as our Priests are of Gods Righteousness , went about to establish to their Iustification : he makes that Righteousness , those good works which by Christ we are enabled to perform , no other then Our own good works , Our own Righteousness , all which as well as our unrighteousness T.D. Beckons but as filthy Rags , nay no better , nor any other then that , which Paul calls his Own ; which Own of his , he having once counted it gain , he had now suffer'd the loss of , and counted but loss and dung that he might be clothed with Christs : which Doctrine of T.D. if it were true ( but God forbid that any should take it from him for Truth , for its most abominably false ) yet let 's see at least what use of Information were to be drawn from it , and in a word it s this : 1. That the Righteousness of Christs own working in his Saints , and that which the Saints received by Faith from Iesus Christ , and that fulness of it that dwells in him , is but meer mans Righteousness , which he must utterly suffer the loss of , and count on not as gain at any hand , but as loss and dung before he can know Christ , or receive or be clothed with the Righteousness , which is through the Faith of Christ , the Righteosness , which is of God by Faith in him : and 2. that the foresaid Righteousness of Christ which he works in us , and we by Fath receive from him is but our own , and is no better ( even all of it ) then our unrighteousnesses are , that is as filthy Rags before the Lord : he that readeth this , let him understand it if he can , annd receive it for truth if he dare ; but if he do not , let him know , that T.D. hath done his best ill will to the truth that he can , to reach it to all men for no less then Truth however , though such folly , falshood ( not to say blasphemy ) it is , that worse scarce ever fell from the Pen of a Professed Preacher . 4. One Observation more which is scarce fit to be noted to any other use or purpose , but to the noting of T.D. to be such a notable none-such as is ( deservedly ) Nigro carbone notandus , arises from T.Ds. discourse about the two Righteousnesses of Christ , one of which he calls mans own and filthy Rags , ( as if Paul , when a Pharisee , had no Righteousness of his own , that he stiled l●ss and dung , but that which was Christs , and which he had received from Christ , which what a loud Tale it is , he is not much versed in the Truth that cannot tell ) and that is in such wise as followeth ( viz. ) whereas T.D. tells ut of two different ends of the'e two Righteousnesses of Christ , as he doth also p. 39. the one whereof ( i.e. ) that which is inherent in Christ , serves ( quoth h ) eto justifie us and give us a Right as a cause of our Title of the inheritance of the Saints in Light , the other ( i.e. ) the Righteousness wrought in us by Christ , which Paul calls l●ss and dung , and T D. imperfect and filthy Rags , to sanctifie us , and to make us meet for the Possession of Heaven , without which Heaven would not be a place or state of blis● , nor we fit to enter into such a Glorious Holy Place and Inheritance among Saints in Light ; which of these two give us Right to enter as the cause of our Title I shall shew plainly by and by , saying onely at present against T.D. as 't is said . Rev. 22.14 . that us doing Gods Commandments by the Power of Christ , as they are given out to us in the Light , that gives us Right , as well as makes us fit to enter , as well Ius ad Regnum , as Aptitudinem Regnandi : but from T. Ds. Doctrine , who Teaches that the Righteousness wrought in us by Christ , which he also calls OVRS , and dung and filthy Rags , serves to sanctify us , and make us fit and meet to enter into Heaven , it s but meet here , least I meet not so fair an opportunity for it an on , to observe thus much to T. Ds. shame , that if his Doctrine were as true as it is false , that the Righteousness of Christ in us , which yet ( though wrought in us by him , and received by Faith from him ) is but meerly our own according to T. D. and no gain , but loss , dung and filthy Rags doth ( though not enright and entitle us to Heaven ) yet at least wash , purifie , sanctifie and make us meet and fit to enter into it , so that without being purged , cleansed , sanctified and fitted by , or covered and clothed with the foresaid dung and filthy Rags , we can in no wife be clean or fit enough to enter into that Pure and Holy place , into which no dung nor fi●h , nor unclean thing , nor ought that defileth can enter , nor ( say I ) whoever worketh such abomination , or maketh such a lye as T. D. doth , who danceth the Rounds in this Rotten Doctrine of his , till a man can easily find neither head nor tail in it , nor Truth nor Unity with it self , nor sense nor reason , if he look on it in gross as it lyes together in the whole corrupted mass and unleavened lump , scarcely from one end of it into the other : yet thus it is , know all ye Saints that are devoted to dance bud-winkt in the dark , to the Tune of T.Ds. loud Trumpetings against the Truth ( viz. ) that unless ye be clothed with the Royal Robes of that Righteousness which is inhaerent in Christ : Person only , which is ( as they also say ) as far off you as Heaven is from the earth , so that ye can't have it , but by that Romish Faith which is Crede quod habes & habes , believe onely that ye have it , and ye have it , sure enough ( though sure enough ye have it not ) you can have no Iustification , no Right nor true Title to enter into Heaven : and unless ye put on and be clothed with the dung and filthy Rags ( so T. D. partly expressly , partly implicitly calls it ) of that Righteousness of your Own ( as he Terms it ) which is received from Christ nevertheless , and wrought in you by him , if ye can believe T. D. ye are not meet in any wife to enter into Heaven , but albeit ye have a Real true Right to enter , being ( though still in your sins ) already justified by the former , yet ye may not enter for all that real Right ye have so to do , into so Holy an Habitation , for want of being cleansed , sanctified and made meet for it by this latter . So of the things that T. D. hath spoken ye have the summe . And so I come to some fuller Examination of the way , by which , as a meritorious cause , our Iustification comes , and our Right and Title to enter into the Heavenly Inheritance , and our meetness and fitness for the Possession of it also . And first I shall shew what these matters come not by . 1. None of all this comes by any or all those good works or Righteousnesses , which ( abstract from Christ as the Worker of them in and by man ) are most truly and properly mans own ; for howbeit T.D. charges us as crying up Our own works of Righteousness , not onely as our Sanctification , but as , de Iure , deserving Iustification also or acceptance in Gods fight , and entrance into his Kingdom , yet ( but that his eye is so busie abroad that its utterly blinded from the sight of how 't is at home ) he might see us perfectly clear , and himself onely deeply guilty in part , yea wholly of the self same Errour : for verily we say of all Our own good works done by us out of him , and not by him in us , which onely are usually by God , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also , properly Term'd Our own , they are , as man himself in the fall , who does them , is , altogether become unprofitable either to iustifie , sanctifie , save , entitle to , or fit us for Gods Kingdom : yea , what God himself doth Isa. 57. we do and will declare of Our own Righteousness , that it cannot profit us , of our Companies we are gone to , and Congregatings with them , &c. in our own wills and thoughts , these cannot deliver us , the wind will take all these away , and as it hath done some already , so will all those that truth therein : we say as Eph. 2. by Grace we are saved , justified ( not in as you look to be , but ) from our sins ( in which we were once dead together with you , in which we sometime walked with you , who cannot believe that ye can he perfectly purged from them while you live , but that ye must live in some , and some in you , till you die , after the course of this world , the Prince of the air , the spirit that still lives in you children of disobedience ) and in the rich mercy and great love of God , wherewith he hath loved us , made accepted in his beloved , quickn●d , raised up and made to sit together , not in fleshly lusts and eartly Pallaces with painted Professors of him , but in Heavenly places in Christ Iesus ; and all this through Faith , not of our selves , for its the gift of God , nor yet of ( self ) works so as that any of us can boast , for we are ( not our own , but ) his workmanship in all this created in Christ Iesus , whose new Creatures we are unto the good works we now do in the Light and Movings of his Spirit , in a cross to the will of our flesh , till it and the lust thereof be wholly crucified , and we to the wo●ld and the world to us , which God hath of old ordained in order to the Eternal Life he hath that way ordained us to , that we should walk in them ; yea , Tit. 3. we were formerly ( for all our forms of Religion , which yet were to the full as powerful as the best of your , or the most Reformed Formalists empty Profession , without the Possession of that Godliness ye prate of ) fool●sh , disobedient , serving diverse lusts and pleasures ( as ye still do , and yet vainly hope to do well enough ) living in every malice , hateful and hating ; But since the Goodness and Love of God our Saviour to mankind in Christ the Light appeared to us , we are from these sins justified and loved , for which judgment without mercy & wrath without remedy will come on you that judge your selves justified in them ; yet not by any works in the Righteousnes that we have wrought , but according to his own mercy he ha●h saved us [ which saves to the uttermost and not by the halves as ye dream he does , who Reckon without your Host , who will Reckon otherwise with you when he comes nigh to you to Judgement , and ye come to Account by the Light , that all the sins past , and to come of you Elect , and peculiarly priviledged , unsanctified Saints are Remitted , while they are [ as hourly they are ] yea , and long too before they are committed , and that you while as unjust and guilty as David in his very acts of Adultery and Murder , are yet acquitted , accounted just , and held guiltless by him who is of purer eyes then to behold iniquity , and not abhor it , and call that good that does evil , and who will by no means clear the guilty in his guilt , nor accept the filthy in his filth ] I say , according to his mercy he hath saved us by the washing ( Mark ) of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Holy Spirit ; which he hath shed on us abundantly by Iesus Christ our Saviour , to this end ( Mark ) that we being justified by his Grace , ( viz. ) shed on us freely by Christ , not inhaerent in him onely as the Subject , might be made Heirs according to the Hope of Eternal Life : This and not thine T.D. is the faithful Word ; and these are the Truths about our Iustification or Salvation , that they of old were enjoined stedfastly to Teach , that those that believed in God might be careful to maintain good works of this sort , as useful , good and profitable unto men , counting all their own ( which yet T.D. sayes are necessary to sanctifie and make meet ) as dung , loss , imperfect , impertinent , unprofitable and useless as filthy Rags ? Yea , Finally as Paul said of his own Worships , Works , Righteousness and Services , while he was a proud , puft up Pharisee , as most of our Formal Scribes and Modern Ministers are ( for he calls not that his own , as T.D. does , but Christs , which he was after clothed in , and by Faith had received from him , and by him was enabled to perform and abound in ) * so say the Qua. of theirs , and I of mine , If any man think he hath whereof to glory in the fl●sh of fl●sh●y wisdom , self-righteousness , outward performances , Well-worships , inward workings of the mind in earnest Imaginations , and of mans will in zealous hastings , willings , runnings , strivings after God and Righteousness and Good , in which yet the Kingdom comes not , nor the Righteousness of it ; I could say more then I am here minded to do ; but since I came in the Light to feel the Circumcision of the heart to the Lord by himself , not made by the hands of man , and to witness the worth of the true Worship of God in Spirit and Truth in the inner part , which his own witness within onely leads to , what good works of mine I once counted gain , I am now made by Christ to count loss for those of Christ : yea , for the excellency of the true knowledge of Christ to be my Lord , whom I once so called , but did not all that he said , for whom I have lost all that , and what more he hath yet called me to suffer the loss of , and do esteem all but as dung that I may win h●m and be found in him not clothed with the old Righteousness of my own , which was once Pauls , and called by me , and T.D. both but as filthy Rags ( so I know no Righteousness of Christ is called by any besides T.D. ) but with that Righteousness which is by Faith in his Light ( in which onely he is known ) Revealed and Received from him : and in the way of that Faith by which God purifies the heart , which overcomes the world in it , and works by that Love that fulfils the Law in working no ill to the Neighbour , wrought in me by him , even that Righteousness which through Faith in the Light is of God , not ( as our devising Diviners both Devise and Divine , to the making of the wicked ones seem just and good before God , when they are nothing less ) imputed , but to the true making of them Really just and good , who before were wicked , imparted without difference to every one that truly believeth in him . So that I do not ( as T.D. sayes we do ) with the Iews , that submitted not themselves to Gods righteousnesse by faith in the light , which if they had done , they would have left and lost their own , go about to establish our own righteousnesse to justification . 2. Neither do I cry up our own righteousnesse so high as T.D. does , who calls meerly mans own , Christs righteousnesse received from , and wrought in man by him . 3. Neither do cry down Christs righteousnesse in some measure to man infused from that fulnesse of the same , that beyond measure dwels in Christ ( as T.D. does ) so as with him to term these ( any otherwise then the spirit it selfe is pleased so to do to our encouragement in obeying Isa. 26. ) Our own , for vix ea nostra voco . 4. Much lesse ( having 1 st depressed and thrust them down far below themselves , under that diminitive denomination of OVR own , even those own of mans , which the Iews , ignorant of Gods went to establish , which were iniquity and abomination in Gods eyes , and which Paul calls dung and losse ) dare I be so blindly bold ( so T.D. is after he hath as undervaluingly , as untruly term'd them our own ) as with him blas●hemously to vilisy them yet further , under that Bull●sh Title of works but imperfectly good , but imperfect obedience and that more beastly and b●llish term ( which none that dwell in heaven can give , as in effect T.D. does to the works of Christ ) of filthy Rags . 5. Least of all , or at least last of all , dare I venture so far as T.D. does ( who yet thinks we make too much of our own good works , obedience , righteousnesse , and too little of Christs ) who having drawn these two righteousnesses and obediences ( viz. ) that of Christs and mans which are as far distant from each other as heaven and earth , so neere together as to make but one of them , which he calls mans own , and yet Christs , and Christs and yet but mans own , & yields , whether meer mans or Christs to be ( as Paul cald his ) but dung and losse , and as T.D. calls all ours , but imperfect and Rotten Rags , after all this concludes that such a meer Chimera and non entity as this mingle-mangle of his own making , which hath a being no where but in his own B●ain , and is not so much as Ens●rationis , but rather Ens irrational tatis , is available to sanctifie and make meet for heaven , for I deny , that any righteousnesse that is no better then dung and filthy Rag ; is available at all as a cause of either justification or sanctification , of Right to , or fitnesse for the Saints inheritance : and howbeit I eternally exalt every 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Christs obedience , every grain of that good he works , who works no evill , and every dram of his righteousness in him else or us to be eternall● and d●servedly accepted of God ; and entitling to and fitting for fellowship with God and the Saints in light ; yet as for that Bipartite Pipald Puppet , and meerly imagined Imp of T. D.'s . dressing out in ( what should I call it ? ) Christs righteous Robes , of Mans Rotten , Rags ; I deny either merit or meetnesse to come by that meer none knows what : For if it be Christs Own indeed , or ever came from him as good , righteousnesse , obedience done or perform'd by him , though in us , ● cannot be imperfect , dung and filthy Rags and immeritorious , but deserv●●g , and serving ( according to the measure of it in us ) both to justify and sanctifie , and as well to give right to , as to fit for the Kingdom , the desert of every degree of his obedience arising from the dignity of his person that performes it●● But if it be meer mans own ( as T.D. saves Pauls dung and losse was , though wrought by Christ and received from him ) then it s but dung and losse ( as Paul call'd his ) and , to speake in T. D.'s . bald Phrase , but imperfectly good , and imperfect obedience and as truly filthy Rags , as both truly and properly T.D. calls all Ours : But then neither meriting , nor so much as making meet for the heavenly inheritance , and yet whether T.D. doth not in effect say it doth ( though he unsay it again , for to gainsay himself is as ordinary as it is to say at all , wellnigh with him ) let it be considered by comparing his own sayings . T.D. Do you think ( quoth T.D. p. 22. that righteousnesse , which Paul calls his own was not Christs ? Had be any righteousnesse , which he had not receved ? That righteousness , which was in the Apostle , never was in Christ , as the Subject , but was wrought in him by Christ. Rep. I might Reply yea , that righteousnesse Paul calls his own , and calls dung and losse also , and had lost for Christ , was not Christs , nor received from , nor wrought in him by Christ , and he that makes Pauls own which was dung and losse , and Christs , which is all gainfull to man , and not dung , but most savoury to God , both one ( as T.D. does . ) will once rue it , that ever he wrote so over honourably and transcendently of Mans , and so dishonourably and disdainfully , without more distinction of it from mans , of the everlasting righteousnesse of Christ and the living God. But yet to do T.D. So much pleasure as to convince him of his confusion , and incomparable contradiction to himselfe ( though every one shall not have it so from me ) let it passe by way of false supposition , that Pauls own righteousnesse he reckons on as dung and losse , though once he thought it gain , and Christs now received by him , and since the losse of Pauls own wrought in him ( which yet was indeed that true godlynesse which Paul elsewhere calls great gain and profitable to all things ( mark ) having the promise of this life and that to come so entaild to it , that it can entitle all that live in it thereunto ) be all one , as T.D. will needs have it , what serves this imperfect drossy , dunghilly , worse then nothing righteousnesse , of Pharasaicall Paul to , alias by T.D. most Duncically , called Christs ) what advantage is to man by this meer loss ' oh much every way ( quoth T.D. ) for I though it serves not for our justification , nor to give us Right as a cause of our Title to the Saints inheritance ( for that righteousnesse that dwels in Christ alone , no neerer to us in readity , but imaginarily only , then heaven is , where he sits , serves only and only serves for that ) yet the Robes ( alias filthy Rags of it secundum te T.D. ) that reach down to cloath us here , that we may be adorn'd as like him , as filthy Rags can make us like to one in pure Robes , These serve to make us suitable to such a glorious presence , and meet for such an holy inheritance , p. 22. 39. Ipse dixit . But I dare not descend after T.D. so deeply into these ( shallow ) depths of Satan , so as to condescend to it as truth , but must needs condemn it as delusion and deceit , for none of Pauls meer own righteousnesse , no dung and losse , no imperfectly good works , nor imperfect obedience , nor such as that of the Iews establishing , nor any , nor all our righteousnesses which T.D. and I together with our unrighteousnesse dare denominate no otherwise then as filthy Rags , doth so much as fit for that pure possession : neithe can such as this entitle , as a Cause , thereunto ; yea if the righteousnesse of Christ within us , wrought by him and received from him were indeed no better then T.D. makes it , who makes it no better then mans own , I should then acknowledge the who'e sentence to be true , which T.D. once utterd and sinc● acknowledges the truth of p. 38. which ( seeing he intends it of that true righteousnesse of Christ in his Saints which we testifie to , that it s not that which Paul calls his own , and dung , but Christs own indeed , who is the only Author of it ) is somewhat more then a meer lye and little lesse then b●astly blasphemy as T.D. affirms it , ( viz. ) that any man that holds that principle of being justified by a righteousnesse within us , living and dying in that principle ca●n●t be saved . But indeed Christs righteousnesse within us only is that by which souls can be saved , as I shall shew anon , for that without , which is in kind the same , never iustifies , makes just , righteous , holy cleane , nor saves from the sin till some of the same be in us ; every measure of the gift of which , though but a part of the whole , is as perfect as the 1 st . fruit , and the meer earnest of the spirit is a perfect gift , and as perfectly good ( in its kind ) according to its mea●ure , as the whole lump and fulnesse out of which it is given , and is that , which is by T.D. though but a part , but improperly called imperfectly good and imperfect obedience , p. 45. For no obedience nor good that 's of Christ no● gift of the heavenly Father in him is any other in nature then they both are ( i. ) perfect as they are pe●fect , and as the fulnesse of good that , dwels in , and flows from them , is perfect without any imperfection : And 't is only perfect obedience , as only that of Christ whether in the head or in the m●mbers of his body , is , not any mans own upon or for which the Gospell gives life and justification : Yet ( Oh the Rounds that T.D. runs in , which there 's no way out of , but by the Dore , that is the Light , which all The●ves and Robbers are climbing above ) T.D. tells us another untrue tale p. 45. which overturns that untrue tale he told before for p. 38. He said no salvation is of any by a righteousnesse within , for any , that b●leive it must come that way , for what 's within us , though rec●ved from and wrought by Christ , is but imperf●ctly good , p. 14.15 . and Rags : But p. 54. he sayes the Gospell gives life ( mark ) upon imp●fect obedience . So according to T.D. who sometimes rejects all righteousnesse within us , as imperfect , as refuse , and as uselesse as filthy Rags , which are good for no●hing , sometimes again allowes that which Paul calls his own and dung to be called Christs and good for s●mthing ( viz. ) though not to justifie and entitle as a Cause , or that upon which ( which term upon though T D would in p. 21 of his 2 Pamphlet shuffle into a more moderate sense then its properly taken in , which is as much as to say for as the Cause of , he therein doth but more manifest his folly to all men ) the Gospell gives the inheritance of life , yet at least to sanctify , and make meet for , p. 14.15.22 . but then this righteousnesse within ( whether Christs or our own , which is dung , and Christs also by gift to him ) must take heed however of creeping too high , for if it aspire so as to assume to it selfe to be own'd us advantagious to justifie and entitle , as that upon which the life is given , it must be hu●l'd down again to ●ary Hell , for T.D. p. 28. Do 〈◊〉 all them to Damnation by whole ●ale below all possibility of Salvation , that dare so much as hold that principle of being saved by it ; but for fear his damnation should be damned again as too damnable a Doctrine , if he should not moderate it as to the legall rigidity thereof , seeing he sayes the Law gives life upon perfect obedience and not without it , and can't beleive any obedience that Christ can work in his Saints , in this life , can be perfect , but all that he here works within men , imperfect , and none perfect , but that he wrought without them , as far off as Ierusalem as long as 1600. years since , and hath now inherent in himself , no neerer to them then heaven is to the earth ; he bethinks himselfe or else forgets himself again , so far ( its not matter which ) as to cut off the entail of eternall life , which the Law gives upon no other then absolutely perfect obedience , and ●nta●l●s the promise of it under the Gospell ( whether Christs or ours or both I know not which , and I think he knows not well himselfe ) unto an imperfect obedience , as that upon which ( mark ) life is given under the Gospell : and contrary to Christ who tells us , Math. 5. That the Gospell righteousnesse which reaches to the thoughts must exceed and be more perfect , ( if more perfect can be , but more then perfect cannot be ) then that of the Pharisees , whereof Paul was one that as to the righteousnesse of the Law was blamelesse , yet came not neer that of the Gospel , there 's in no case any entrance into the Kingdome T.D. sayes p. 45. the Law gives not life without perfect obedience , the Gospell gives it upon imperfect obedience ; thus posito uno absurdo sequuntur mil● , & error minimus in principio fit major in m●di● , maximus in fine . When our men call'd Ministers erre by one absurdity , rather then return , they multiply it into a 1000. and rather loose themselves in the Laborinth of their own learned , thoughts , then learn of Christ and stoop to the simplicity and plainnesse of the truth as it is in Iesus , for but that they love that smoother and smoake of the pit Rev. 9. They came out of , in aperto et facili posita est salus : The grace of God which brings the salvation , appeares to all men , teaching such as are willing to learn at it to deny ungodlynesse and worldly lusts and to live godly , righteously and s●berly in this present world , which life they hope not to live till the world to come , where ( unlesse the Pope Purgato●y be a truth , and their own true doctrine , when they say as the Tree fa●ls , so it lyes , be a lye ) 't is too late to begin it . And in such a Wood and Wooden Wheele , as to and fro , in and out , up and down , round about here and there , no way out , doth T.D. wander about this matter of our justification by the righteousnes , good works and obedience of Christ within his Saints : one while saying one thing of it , anon another , sometimes that its Christs own wrought by him , received from him , sometimes their own , even that own of theirs , which is imperfect , dung , losse , and 〈◊〉 Rags , which was theirs long before ere they knew him : Sometimes in another sense , then that the spirit calls them both their own and his own also ; somtimes this , sometimes that , now that it serves for nothing being but imperfectly good ( unlesse filthy Rags be good for anything ) then that as very losse and dung , as Paul counted his own , that it serves him for something ( viz. ) to fit for heaven , but not to enright to it , as the same in himselfe d●th and so its tantum , but not quantum , now that its no lesse then losse of life , to expect life upon it , then that as imperfect as it is , the Gospell gives life upon ● : so it somtimes this , and sometimes that , sometimes himself well know ; not what : Thus that single double righteousnesse whereof man is the Actor , but whether himselfe , or Christ the Author is scarce distinctly determined by T.D. Heating about in the tossing Cock B●at of T. D.'s . brain , advanced one while up to the highest heaven , and by and by deba●ed again to the depths of Hell , like men in a Ship that are whiffled up and down in a troubled Sea , which the wicked , who are never well in their wits , nor soundly stablish in the truth are ever like to , of whom one may say with the P●● , Iamjam Tacturos Sydera Sumna putes , Iamjam Tacturos Ta ta a●igra putes . and with the Prophet Pal. 107.26.27 . They Mount up to the heavens , they go down again into the depths : They ●eel to and fro and stagger like a drunken man , and 〈◊〉 their wits end . Never did I read or see in so small a piece of work so many Ringles and Rounds as T.D. makes and runs in , except I. O's . who in many things makes , whether so many or more , I cannot yet say , but I am sure many as plain round O's , and Cris Crosses to himselfe , as most men can likely do it , that set not themselves to it , in so little a compass as his is contained in , since I began to dive into the Bottomlesse pit of that thing call'd Divinity , or ●o discern the shallow divinations of the ( so deemed ) deep Divines . CHAP. 4. HAving hewed my way to it throw those craggy contradictions of T.D. to himselfe about it , and dispersed and vanquisht some of the dark vapours , wherewith he had vailed that Question , that lyes between us , I shall now vent my verdit on it , in a more plain open view , and having negatively declared , whose righteousnesse , and good works , justification and life is not given upon and discarded all those of meer mans own , as D●ng , Losse , Rags , Imperfect , and ( what ever T.D. falsly charges on us , as affirming it , or affirms himselfe of life given upon imperfect obedience , and meetnesse to inherit it by Pauls own , which he renounced ) of no worth , to give any influence into these matters ; I shall shew whom and whose good works and righteousnesse , life comes by , and is given upon , yea I here positively affirm that by none but Christ alone Iustification unto life can come ; nor is there either title to the inheritance , or fitnesse to possesse it , by any other good works or righteousnesse save those of the Lord Iesus only , whose only , and all whose works , even in the very least degree thereof , when or whereever wrought , are perfectly good , when the best of meet mans are as T.D. sayes but imperfectly good , which is as much as to say imperfect-perfect things , every truly good thing being properly perfect , and every perfect thing properly good , and every imperfect thing properly evil , and every evil imperfect , or rather defect and imperfection it self ; and every perfect thing good for somthing , and every imperfect perfect thing ( without Gods wisdome , who orders sin to his own glory ; and is easily able to bring good out of evill ) being properly & per se good for nothing . Yea this stone of Israel Gen. 49.23 . Christ which was ever set at nought by you builders who seem to your selves so much to build upon him , but are seen more then any to build beside him , and stumble at him , is now again become the head in the Corner , Act. 4.11.12 . Neither is there salvation in any other , nor any other name under heaven given among men , whereby they must be saved then that of the Lord our righteousnesse who is , not here in this world simply so accounted ( as 't is , simplicer satis , accounted on by our Ac●demicks ) and then made to us of God , Wisdome , Righteousnesse Sanctification , Redemption , hereafter in the world to come , but so ready made to us here and that perfectly too ( so far as he is perfectly trusted to and h●ped in 1 Pet. 1.13 . for salvation ) Salvation from God , to such as expect not more the pardon and forgivenesse of what is past , then pu●ging from and power to forgo all sin , and all unrighteousness in due time to come , who have the witness within themselves of all iniquity to be ( as they waite on him ) so truly done away and remited , as ( though they meet with temptation ( as Christ did ) which is not transgression if withstood ) not to be done , nor at all committed any more : 1 Ioh. 1.7.9 . 2 Cor. 7.1.119 . Psal. 1.2.3 . And this peculiar priviledge , and high prerogative hath he , who is the head , and hath ( as he is well worthy ) in all things the preheminence over his body , which he is the Saviour of , purchased to himselfe by his free humiliation and b●eience to death even the death of the Grosse , to be in perfect power to save to the uttermost , all that shall ever come unto God by him . Now much if not most of this is in general granted and assented to by all ( viz. ) that Iustification to life and Salvation is by none but Christ , and by no other righteousnesse , but that , which is most peculia●ly and properly called his , and not mans ; but still the Question about which sub●judice lis est ( viz. ) what Christ it is ( for T.D. makes two at least if not more ( viz. ) a Christ within , and a Christ without ) and what righteousnesse of Christ it is ( for T.D. makes two righteousnesses of Christ also ( viz. ) one within us and another in him without us , ) by whom , and upon which the title to Iustification and the inheritance comes . And to this I answer that as I know no other person nor thing , that gives us title to salvation then Christ and his righteousnesse , so I know no other Christ then that one , which the Scripture speakes of , that dyed at Ierusalem , and was crucified in the great City , spiritually called Sodom and Egypt , and was an immaculate Lamb , slain by the beast from the foundation of the World , by whose blood his Saints ever were , and still are redeemed and cleansed from all their sins , and by the eating and drinking whose flesh and blood they have life in themselves , whom they also as Paul and others did , witnesse speaking , living , working , labouring in them , comming into them , ( as they open to him ) supping with them , manifesting himselfe to them , as they keep his Commandements ( when not to the world that break them ) making his abode with them , dwelling in them by faith , walking in them as they in him , formed in them , being in them that are in the faith , and not reprobate as concerning the faith , as some are , who dream they have it , the hope of glory , even Christ Iesus , the Son of God , the seed of Abraham according to the flesh , risen from the dead , and alive for ever , the second man , the Lord from heaven , the quickning spirit , that shewed himselfe to his disciples , comming in where they were , the dores being shut , appearing to them in what f●●m he would , vanishing out of their sight at what time he pleased ; Christ , the wisdome of God , the power of God , the word of God , the righteousnesse of God , the sanctification and salvation of God , the Image of God , the true vine of the Branches , the dore of the Sheep , the light of the World , and by his light in them , the judge and condemnation of all that hate it , and perfect Saviour of all that come to God by him , and to him in it , the same that ever he was yesterday to day and for ever , the selfe same and not another , no changling but numerically the same to them that see him , as the wo●ld does not , who are commenting on him , but cannot comprehend him , guessing at , but cannot k●n him , naming themselves after him , but are no kin to him , not divided but individually one not one without us , and a different thing in us , as T.D. dictates , ●aying two things are called Christ his person and his operations in us p. 23. but one without us , and that same one in us , seen to be but one , and the same without them , and one , and the same in them by the single eye of them that are ( being joyned to him , 1 Cor. 6. ) one and the same spirit in him , though ●eeming two Christs to the doubleey , that never yet saw clearly any true Christ , for he that imagines any more then one Christ knowes not aright that one that is , but ( what ere he thinks ) unlesse it be some false ones , in truth hath truly ●een just none at all . And as I own no other Christ but that one , by whom life comes to all that beleive in his light ; so I own the life to come by that one Christ not as withou● us , but as comming within us , and contrarily to T.D. at the dispute , who ( as he truly relates it , to his own fuller shame p. 22. ) being asked by G.W. whether we are not iustified by Christ with in us ? answered no but by Christ without us ; which Christ ( to make but one of him still , whom T.D. by his Metonymy Metamorphosyes into two things expressed by that one name , his person and operations ) as without or while without and not come into them , is no more to them , who when he comes in them are his Saints , then he is to all them who are without him in the World whose condemnation he is by his light , because they yet beleive not in it , that he , in whom is life , whose life is the light of men , by it might come into them , and make them partakers of the life Ioh. 12. But as he comes in ( and men behold he now cometh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in myriads of his holy ones . Jud. 14. to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds , and the hard speeches that ungodly sinners have spoken against him ) so is he made not only their Sanctification to cleanse , and make them meet for the pure Lord to look upon with delight , as vessels of honour sitted for him to take pleasure in , but also even so , and no otherwise then so , as within , and bringing forth his own Image , and righteousnesse within them , is he their righteousnesse to justification , so as to enright and entitle them , to the gracious acceptance in the sight of the Lord , which by his own holy presence , and holy spirit , and holy operations in them , he hath first● fitted them for . And as by him else not as without us , but us within us , ●o by that obedience , and those good works of Righteousness ; both active and passive of himselfe , not as without us only ( as is blindly beleived by our blind guides , and their beleivers ) but as within us wrought and performed , doth he really become our righteousnesse to the iustification of us in Gods sight and an Entitler of us , to the inheritance , and a Sanctifier and sitter of us for it , and also we the righteousnesse of God in him : for though whatever he did , and endured without in that body that liv'd and dyed at Ierusalem , was as truly meritorio●s of perfect obedience , as to the ends , in order to which it was yeilded , being the fulfilling of the Law , and of all the Types , Shadows and Sacrifices that went before him , and that , whereby he left us an example that should follow his steps , &c. Yet if the blood of that immaculate Lamb , and the suffering and the sacrifice of himselfe by which he purges away sin , and that righteousnesse , and those perfect good works , and holy spirituall operations of his be not witnessed neerer to us in time , and place then 1600. years since at Ierusalem ( viz. ) within us now as 1 Ioh. 1.7 . It avails us not to our salvation . And howbeit this true transposition of purifying before pardoning , of mens forgoing sin by Christs power in them before Gods forgiving and forgetting it , runs in a clear crosse line to your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Cart before the Horse , who set iustification from the guilt , before sanctification from the filth of sin , expecting and accounting among your selves ( without the Lord , while he is silent , and before the bill of your accounts be brought in by him ) ye are iust , and pure , and holy , and good in the sight of God , when it s nothing lesse upon the account of somewhat done by another , that never knew the workers of iniquity , so well as to entitle them to an entrance into Gods bosome in their iniquities , as if all scores were quitted between God and you , and your sins blotted out 1600 yeares at least , before they were by you done , and by his witnesse in you , as with a Pen of Iron , and point of a Diamond written down by Christ , and the works of his spirit within , yet I absolutely assert that ye can be no further justified then in such measure as ye are sanctified before God , nor yet any sooner in order of either time or nature as you speak . I am not ignorant of your ordinary School distinctions & positions namely that bona opera non praecedunt justificandum sed sequuntur justificatum & dant non us ad regnum , but only aptitudinem regnand● , &c. That good works go not before in the person that is to be iustified , but follow only in persons already justified , and give no right to the kingdom , but only a fitness for entrance into it , to such as have actuall right before ever they do any good by the power of Christ , and T.D. by implicit faith treads in the same common beat'n track , telling us p. 16. that surely the leading of the spirit or sanctification is a fruit and effect , and not a meritorious cause of not being obliged to the penalty of the Law : yet all this is but tittle ●attle of those whom Christ and righteousnesse serves to talk and make a trade on : Tell not me T.D. of Thomas , of Io. Duns the Scot , and other Scepticks , Schoolmen and Casuists , that make Religion a matter of dispute more then practice , for I say ( and yet no more then what the Scripture proves to any , but such as take more care by their innumerable distinctions , senses , and meanings upon it , to defend themselves in their sins , then to live the life of it , that the good works , that are the gift of Christ and the fruits of the spirit of Christ in us , and that righteousnesse which is of his working in us , who worketh in us , both to will and do what are we do , that is of worth before God , are those by which our Salvation is wrought out , 2 Phil. 13. and are not the fruit and effect of , but go before Iustification from guilt , and acquiting from the penalty and condemning power of the Law , which is the fruit and effect of the other , and the same that gives the aptitude and meetness for the Kingdom , the self same Righteousness of Christ within us , wrought and imparted to us , gives to us the Ius or Right to inherit it , and not another without us , onely imputed ; for as is commonly said , quae supra nos , and so may it be truly said in this matter , quae extra nos nihil ad nos , &c. what good works and Rigteousness of Christ are done by him without us , what ever they are intentionally , and conditionally , yet are actually and absolutely nothing to us , but as we come to see and feel the same , by that same power that wrought in him working mightily in us ; performed within our selves . Neither are the good works and Righteousness of Christ , which are the fruits of his Spirits leading us thereto subsequent as effects of his not being under the Lawes curse in a person before justified ( as T.D. and the Scholastick Doctors of whom he learns it , indoctrinates ) but are praecedent as causes of it in persons in order to their peace with God , and Iustification in both Gods sight , and in mens , and in their own , for as 't is said Isa. 31.15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. of the inhaerent Righteousness , that resides and remains in the hearts of Saints , which is the fruit and effect of the Spirit of God , making them of a Wilderness a fruitful Field , by the pourings out of the Spirit upon them from on high ; so it is in truth that the work of that Righteousness is the peace , and the effect or fruit of that Righteousnes is quietness and assurance for ever : yea , that people who of a barren Forrest become a fruitful Field to the Lord , bring forth fruits of Righteousness by Christ in them to the praise of God , are they onely that , when the Nail of Gods wrath , indignation and torment comes down by Right on the fruitless Forrest , have ( even eaten us , or thereupon ) a due Right and Title to the dwelling in the peaceable habitation and sure dwelling , and quiet Resting-places of the Fathers Love and Abrahams Bosom● , as well as a fitness for it ; which fitness and meetness is first , and ever goes before the Actual , A●solute and Immediate Right there to come ; for whatever Remote and Conditional Right all men have to the Iustification , Life and Peace of God in Christ , Mediante fide , Iustitia , Pie●ate , Sanctitare , &c. On Terms of that precedent Faith , Righteousness , Godliness and Holiness wrought in them by Christ , which makes them mee● for it ; yet a Positive and Immediate Right thereto , can no man have , till he be thus made mee● to enter it , any more then he , that was unmeet for the Marriage Supper , for want of his Wedding Garment , who had as true a Rem●●● Right as any that were there conditionally he had fitted ( i.e. ) clothed himself accordingly , had in his old Suit , the Rotten Rags of his own Righteousness , and not Christs , a Real and Immediate Right , to intrude himself into so Holy a presence , who was , with shame , thrust forth forth for his labour . And whereas our unjust Iusticiaries strike hard against us , as they think , with that True Story Rom. 9. of Iacob and Esau's being the one loved , th● other 〈…〉 yet , being 〈◊〉 , ●me neither good nor evil . Rep. 1. I say , and so would they too , if they could once sea that 〈◊〉 one thing to be denominated aforehand by God , who fore-seeing how it will be , oft calls those things that yet are not , as if they were , loved and ●ated Respectively before or good or evil be actually done , or the doors born , with Reference to the good and evil he fore-saw would be done in time , and another to be abs●lutely and actually l●ved and hated , not onely without any reference or respect to good and evil fore-seen , that it would be done , but also before the Subject ; and doers thereof are , in rerum natura , as yet in so much as any actual being . 2. That those two Persons were Types of the two Seeds , that ( and not Persons , but so as they are the Children of one or t'other ) are the only absolute unchangeable Everlasting Subjects of Gods peremptory in alterable and Eternal decrees of Election and Reprobation ( viz. ) the Seed of the Woman , and that of the Serpent , which the Seed of the Righteous , who are ever blessed , and the seed of evil-doers , who are never to be Renowned , are respectively born of , and adhaering to . 3. That though they will needs mis-understand it as spoken of those Pers●ns only , yet it is not poken of two Persons only , but it is spoken of the 2 Nations that strove in the womb of Rebecca , and the two manner of people that were to go forth of her bowels ( viz. ) Israel and Edom , which two Nations also , but that what is most Right , is mostly a Riddle to them , they might Read ( as born after the flesh ) were Types , yet of a more Mystical and spiritual Israel and Edom * , then they are yet well acquainted with , as neer of kin to Esau , that is Edom , as they are in G●ds Account , both in name and nature . 4. That Gods loving one and hating t'other of these , was ( as is most evident in the Letter , Mal. 1.2 , 4. ) not without , but with respect to evil , and not evil fore-seen to be done in time , for on the Account of Edoms Mountains being the border of wickedn●ss ( as Iacobs were not ) they became the objects of Gods hatred , and a people against wh●m the Lord hath indignation for ever . 5. That there was no such thing as Iacob have I loved , Esau have I hated , said of those two single Pe●sons , of which our intricate Expositors interpret that Text , before those two children and single pair of twins came out of Rebeccaes wombe , neither doth that Text Rom. 9.11 , 12 , 13. say so in : terminis as our Academical Arithmeticians usually wrong repeat it , for the Text , sayes , that before they had done either good or evil , or were bo●n either , it was said to her , the elder shall serve the younger , and that 's true enough , that he did both in the single Type and the foresaid double Anti-type , and it s witnest in the Saints , whom the world knows not , to be truth at this day , that the elder doth serve the younger , which was an underling to the elder a great while : but of the other it s said thus , not ( as it was said unto her ) but ( as it is written ) Jacob have I loved , Esau have I hated : and where , and when was this written ? before the two-single Persons of Iacob and Esau were born , or had done either good or evil ? I trow not ; but if our benighted Seers look again , they 'l see it was written by Malachi the last Prophet , who●e Prophecy was not before , but after they were born , and had done all the good or evil they ever did in the body ; yea , so long after all this was written , that the mens bodies both were 100ds of years before that , both dead and rotten . And to inculcate this a little further , let thus much t●e considered , that howbeit T. D. denyes Iustific●●ion and Life to be given ( ●s myself do somewhat more then himself , who falsly accuses me of it ) upon my obedience or good works , or Righteousness of Ours onely and properly so called , for as much as all Ours as well as Our selves , as in the fall without Christ and his in us , are as an unclean thing , and ●ung and liss , and as filthy Rags before the Lord , and as he speaks ( improperly ) imperfectly good , which is no other then evil ( as I said above ) or imperfect , or to use his own Phrase still imperfect obedience , which is but disobedience ; nevertheless the good works , righteousness and ●bedience of Christ in us , as well as his without us , being , when but in part or in the least degree , perfect , and the fulfilling of the Law ( tuliter , qualiter ) and not defective or transgressive of the Law , for as we have of our selves no other , so he hath none such , nor are any of his his operations or obediences imperfect , or a violation or breaking of the Law , and either a violating or fulfilling , breaking or keeping of it every deed is , that is done at all , even these are such by which Iustification may , doth , and must come , if at all , and upon which the Gospel gives life . And if any doubts it , as T. D. himself does , or rather denyes the Truth of it , I need go no further for an Argument , ad hominem , then to T.D. himself , who p. 45. sayes the Gospel gives life upon imperfect ob●dience , from whose own imperfect speech in that particular I may Argue , and perfectly conclude the Truth asserted of the worth , weight and vnloar of Christs obedience in his Saints , every part of which is perfect , a minori a● ma●us , if I may be candidly construed in my cauting back to him in his own Language of Imperfect Obedience . Thus , Arg. If the Gospel gives Life upon imperfect obedience , as evrs onely is , if any can properly be so called , then upon perfect obedience , such as at Christs within us and without us is , much more . But , Secundum re , T. D. the Gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience ; therefore upon Christs good works , Holy Operations , Righteousness and Obedience in us , which is perfect and not imperfect , much more . And if T. D. shall strive by the serpentine sublety , to save his head this way , by saying , he intends by that Term of imperfect obedience , not any obedience or righteousness of our own , wrought by us without Christ , but that wihch is ( as he sayes Pauls was , his own , that he received from Christ , which own of his Paul counted less and dung ) Our Own , received from and wrought in us by Christ ; yet let him remember at least , 1. that then he calls the gift of Righteousness , by Faith received from God and Christ , from whom comes every good and perfect gift ( but not any insufficient , defective or imperfect , that I or any ever read of ) imperfect . And whereas he may yet twine & say , that he intends not in such a sence as I take the word imperfect in for evil , defect , insufficiency to its end or so , but for 〈◊〉 onely , or a less measure or degree of that fulness , every part of which is also in a sense perfect ; let him 2. consider what I said above viz. of no good , heavenly , spiritual thing , or gift that comes down from above from Christ and the Father of lights , that which is but in part , is any where no not in , 1 Cor. 13. or truly can be , called imperfect ; for the earnest and first fruits of the Spirit and Grace is Spirit and Grace , and good , as the whole is , that its a part of , and not imperfect , but perfect as the other is perfect , and so all that 's born of God is truly Holy as God is Holy , and perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect , and sins not as he sins not , nor can , being of the incorruptible non-sinning Seed , for all that sins is of the Devil , and thereby are manifest the Children of God , and of the Devil ; that , that is of God overcometh the world , and that which overcometh the world is not overcome by the world , but keepeth himself that the evil one toucheth him not , and sinneth not , as he doth , and doth no other that is begotten to it by the Devil , and is of the D●vi● , and he that sinneth not doth Righteousness , and he that doth Righteousness is Righteous as God is Righteous , Pure as he is Pu●e , and so in some measure perfect , though not in the same measure perfect , as his heavenly Father is perfect , that is bearing his perfect Image in his mea●ure , and not part of Gods , and part of the Devils , as an Infant in nature , bears the perf●ct Image of a man in stature , and not Centaure-like , part of a mans Image , and part of a beasts : and not having a mixture of sin with his Grace , as thou ( whether more foo●ish●y or falsly it matters not , sith it s both in a great degree ) supposedst ( as thou saist p. 18 ) I meant , when in Answer to thy Question , ( viz. ) Whether th●r● be any true Believers who are not perfect ? At the Dispute I Replyed , There are degrees among Believers , little Children , young Men , Fathers ; and these things may serve , as my Answer to that piece of folly and falshood of thine , now I am up on 't , for whatever thou T. D. supposest I mean , I suppose , and mean no such matter , when I say perfect ; for every true Believer and Sanctified one by Christ , though but in part , is as truly , though not ●o totally perfect and perfected as he shall be by him who is said to perfect for ever all such as are , so far as they are , for ever Sanctified by him , nor yet ( but that thy senses are sodden so as to Take , or rather Rake or Scrape things for granted to thee before they are so given ) did or do I grant ( as thou there tatlest ) s●me persons to be justified , who never did fulfil the Law personally ; for though I told thee indeed , as thou truly tel'st it again to the world , there are but two Estates , Iustification and Condemdation ; and now I tell thee over again , that there is no medium between these , for every one stands either Iustified or Condemned , Guil●y or not Guilty before God , as his Law , which is the Light is broken or fulfil'd by him , and he that stands by the Light in his own Conscience , by which God Judges him , in any Particular Cleared or Iustified , stands before God so far uncondemned , how ever Judged by man ; therefore wherein David was clear in himself , though clouded with mens false accusations of him , he could and did with boldness appeal to God , to Iudge and Reward him in that case still , according to the integrity of his heart , and innocency of his hands in Gods sight ; and so Abimelech and others , see Psal. 25.21 . 26.1 . 6.11 . 18.26 . Gen. 20.5 . 1 Kings 9.4 . But he that by the same Light , which is no lye in the Conscience of ether , Godly or Wicked ( as T.D. little less then perswades men it often is in both , p 19. ) stands Condemned within himself , and so consequently before God , whose witness that in him is ( let him ▪ flatter himself as he will , & let T.D. and all men sing Lullaby and Prophecy as smooth things to him as they can ) so far as in any Case or Cases , he Rebels against the Light , is so far inexcusably , till he repents and returns to it , in such wise condemned by it in the sight of God , whereupon even David himself where his heart smote him , for iniquity regarded in it ( and he that does it , let him dote the contrary if he dare , does I say assuredly , so far regard it ) could stand in no more boldness and guiltlesness in his sight , then Adam could after he had fed on the forbidden fruit , for which he fled Gods face ; and where he fell short of that uprightness , he sometime stood Iustified in and by before , and fail'd so fowly as that flawes , fainirgs and falshood were found in him ( as if ever there were in all his dayes it was in that unjust matter of V●iah and his Wife , in which yet even while he was guilty thereby , T. D. most impudently affirms he stood with God not in a condemned , but in a justified estate ) there , let T. D. lye as he lifts , yet David declares when he had done that wickedness in his sight , God did not onely speak in wrath and judge him , but was worthy to be ( though himself was justly condemned by it ) to be justified and cleared in so doing , Psal. 51.4 . I ay , though I said there were but two states , in one of which every man is , as he does good , which since the fall he cannot do but by the Power of Christ , or evil at the suggestion of the D●vil , viz. Iustification , or Condemnation : yet I deny any person to be justified in whom the Law [ which can't be by the weakness of the flesh ] is not by the Power and Spirit of Christ fulfilled , neither do I Imagine ( as thou imaginest I did ) a mixture of sin with Believers Grace ; for though they , that drink of the Whores Cup of abomination and fornication , which is full of such kind of trashy doctrines and mixtures , and medleys , which they ministes and measure out to one another , supposing I see with such eyes as themselves , suppose such a mix●ure , and suppose I suppose it too , yet I neither suppose , nor own such mingled messes of doctrine , but know , that no more then Iron is truly mixed , or can cleave into one compositum with mi●y clay , and no more then God and Idols , light and darkness , Christ and Belial can be mingled into agreement , no more mixture is there of the sinners sin , which is of the Devil , with the Saint's Grace , which is of God ; and so whereas thou thoughtest thou hadst caught me ( as thou there sayest ) in a manifest contradiction , thou hast but according to thy common custom in that kind , caught thy self ; instead of winding my self out of which contradiction ( of thy meer coining ) though thou sayest I replyed not , but sa●e down on the Top of a Seat , like a man astonisht and under the Hereticks Iudgement ( i e. ) self-condemned ; yet thou feest I have here so well wound my self out of it , as to manifest it to all men that I were never in it , and to leave thee in the lurch under the Hereticks Iudgement of self-condemnation , for thy folly and fictions about it , which are hereby also manifest to all ; for verily , if I were at all astonished at any of the three dayes Disputes , thou miserably mistook'st the manner of it , it being not at all , as the Iewes were at the Wisdom of Christs , but as oft as it was , at the stupidity of thy understanding and answers . Thirdly and lastly , From thy foregoing Grant to us , which is more then we say , and would have thee say , That the Gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience , let it be well remembred by thee , sith it s agreed on all hands , that all the obedience that Christ yielded to the Law in that person called Christ without us , was perfect , and in no wise imperfect , that then that imperfect obedience ( as thou call'st it ) which the Gospel gives life upon ( as thou sayest ) can be no other then that which is inherent in us , in ourpersons onely and not his , in whom all that is inherent thou darest not on pain of Blaspemy deny but that it was perfect ; and if so , then see how with thy wining to and fro , and running up and down , round about , thou hast at last brought thy Hogs ( as they say ) to a fair M●rk●● : even till thou hast drawn the dirt of thy fal'd charge of Popery , as thou callest that Doctrine of Life upon our imperfect works , which thou threw'st at me , who never held it by an● , but Christs perfect obedience , upon thy Own indirectly-driving-self , so that if any man enquire who is it that holds that Popery of Life & Iustification upon Our imperfect obedience , T. D. tells it that himself is the man , in whose Book p. 45. it is written as legibly to all , as if it were branded upon his B●ow , as his own Doctrine , That the Gospel gives Life upon imperfect obedience ● and if he will take his Term of imperfect , and Translate it better by the Term of perfect obedience wrought by Christ in his Saints , I 'le give him his word again with all my heart ; and can afford it , for if so , he gives me no less then the Question it self , which is affirmed by us , and not denied ( if so ) by himself concerning lifes coming upon Christs Righteousness , received from him and wrought by him in us . So then the snare is broken and I am escaped , which yet is whole enough to hold T. D. fast enough , who set it , who while I for whom 't was set am set at liberty by himself , cannot with all his struggling strain his own neck out of the string , whereinto he hath slipt it unawares . Sic ves non vohis fertis Aratra B●ves . Further , yet much more is to be said in proof of it , that our being first led by the Spirit of Christ into the Righteousness of his working in us , is Antecedent to our Iustification , as a meritorious cause of it , though considering how slenderly T. D. slides away from what was at the Dispute urged to that purpose , even as he sets it down in his own Relation of it , p. 15 , 16. to his own best advantage , there were no great need of more , if all wereas wise as some are silly , to see the strength of what was urged ; but some are silly , and some are willing , rather then to own troublesome truths , to wink against it , and to seem more silly then they are ; whereupon when I have Examined the inefficacy of T. Ds. returns to it , and turned them home in their native nakedness , to the shame of him who sent them out , I may not unlikely urge somewhat more . 1. To this Argument from Gal. 5.18 . They who are led of the Spirit , are not under the Law ; therefore being led of the Spirit , is a meritorious cause of not being under the Law , and so consequently of Iustification or Non-Condemnation by it . Thou T.D. Rep'yest , That I am very silly myself , or take my hearers to be so , thinking this to be a proof of my former consequence , or that there is any consequence in this Argument ; whereas first this Argument is urged not so much in proof of my former consequence , as entail'd on that , but as entire and absolute within it self : for as to the proof of the former consequence , ( viz. ) Contrariorum contraria est Ratio ; therefore as evil deserve Condemnation , so good works Non-Condemnation ; in proof of which thou sillily sayeth , I should , have pro●● that there 's Par. Ratio , for had I prosecuted that , I should have proved that there 's Contraria Barro , for the merit of the ones , and of the other , as I have told thee above , I say as to that former consequence it had been sufficiently proved before by telling you ( but that in such a crowd of conference as ye were in among your selves , it could not be heeded ) ; that as Condemnation and Non-Condemnation , of Iustification were Contraries , so good works which I said were not those of our own working without Christ ( for I oft said , not by works of Righteousness we have wrong h●● but what Christs works in and by us , none of which are imperfect but all truly good ) and evil works are truly Contraries , and so of contrary desert , the one being all as truly good , as the other truly evils and as for thy saying , I am either silly , or take my h●●●ers s●to● , in that I think there 's any consequence in , the Argument from Gal. ● . 18 . I say I did not take my heedless , hearers so silly thus , but I now take some of them an ●thy self for one , to be much more silly then I did at the Dispute , not onely by reason of sundry other remarkably silly passages , that are in thy Printed Relation thereof , but also in that thou thinkest there is no consequence in that Argument ; for verily , wert thou but as solid as thou art silly in this matter , or couldst thou but look an inch or two beyond that 18th verse , whereon the Argument is grounded , thou might'st see of thy self that which is of force sufficient to prove the se●●et for shewing in the verses between the works of the flesh , which the Spirit leads out of , and the fruits and works of the Spirit , which the Spirit leads such into as follow it , the Apostle v. 23 adils this ( viz. ) against such there is no Law : ( i. e. ) such works of the Spirit , as Love , Ioy , Peace , Goodness , Meekness , Temperance , and such Persons as are by the Spirit led out of the work of the flesh , adultery , uncleanness , laferviousness , hatred , wrath , envyings , drunkenness , revellings , &c. and into the other : whence to the proving of the Sequel of that Argument , in which thou sillity sayest there 's no , no consequence , I argue . If such as are led by the Spirit out of evill into good works , are thereupon deservedly not under the Law , then their being led by the Spirit , who are led by it from under it , is the deserving or meritorius cause of their nor being under the Law , and so of Iustification . But verum prius ergo & posterius . The Minor which ( unless thou wilt deny thy Principles ) its like thou wilt deny , is thus proved ; Those against whom deservedly there is no Law , are thereupon deservedly from under the condemning power of it ; for such is the R●gour of the Law , that who ere deserves the Condemnation of it , till they come not to deserve it , first or last , shall assuredly feel it . But there is no Law deservedly against such as 〈◊〉 not after the flesh into evil , but after the Spirit into good works ; therefore according to that also Rom. 8.1 deservedly no Condemnation . For indeed those and no other ( what ere ye deem to the contrary , being deluded by the Devil , to the deceiving of your own Souls ) are truly in Christ Iesus , then those that are led by the Spirit , which who is led by , is led out of evil , for it leads into nothing but good , those onely are in the Spirit , and all the rest in the 〈◊〉 , which follow the flesh in its lustings against the Spirit , and so under the Law and c●●e , thought they name the Name of Christ , and after him call themselves Christians , while they are not departed from iniquity , much more while they plead for its continuance under the name of their infi●mi●ies of necessity , while they abide in the body : yea , those and none else are Christs , though millions more may conceit themselves his , so as to be interessed into the blessings of Peace , Life and Iustification by him and Abrahams Seed , and heirs according to the Promise , and sons of God , that are led by the Spirit of God into good works out of evil , to live and walk in the Spirit , out of the fl●sh and the f●uits thereof , out of vain glory , envy , hypocrisie , and all deceit : and if any think he is Christs , or any other men are Christs , so far as to stand justified before God in him , before he be sanctified , or while he is guilty of such gross evils , as David was defil'd with , while he was wallowing in the Mire of that matter of Vriah , as T. D. guesses David and all Saints are ( by which name he paints them out as well while they are in such a nasty pickle , as when they are wash ) of impure the Righteousness of Christ without him to himself , or count upon it that God impures it so as to compute him or any Righteous , Holy , Good , &c. upon that mere account of his own so counting en't and confident believing it so to be before he find and feel that by his Faith in Christs Light ( which such Fanciers as I.O. T. D. and most Divines and their Disciples are far from Faith in , while they fight against it as fiction ) it be revealed and ●rought in himself , and imported to him , to making of him Righteous as Christ is , and to the purifying of him ( in fiert● ) till he come ( in facto esse ) to be pure as Christ is pure , 1 Iohn 3. To walk as he walked , and as he is , in whom is no sin , and in whose mouth was found no guile , even so to be in this world , and so are his Sants that stand with him on Mount Sion redeemed from the earth , without fault before the Throne , Rev. 14.1 . and layes claim to the blessedness in Truth , Psal. 32.1 , 2. Psal. 119.1 , 2 , 3 , I say if any man thus believe Trust and Hope as aforesaid , his hope is but vain , and not that of theirs , 1 Iohn 3.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. nor the sure and stedfast Anchor of them , Heb. 6.18 , 19 , 20. that enters into that within the vail , whether the Fore-runner is entred , making the way for such onely as follow him in the daily Cross to the Carnal mind ; yea , his belief is but blind , his faith meer fancy ; he feeds but upon ash●s , a deceived heart hath turned him aside ; his trust is in lying words , he leans upon nought but lyes , a meer lye is in his right hand ; Christ is not his , nor his Righteousness his as yet , neither is he Christs , while he lives in his lusts and his lusts in him , while alive to the world and the world to him ; for as it is in the Verse next after that I last argued from , Gal. 5.23 , 24. They that are Christs , have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof , upon that Cross of the Lord Jesus , then which Paul glorified in nothing more , as true Saints now do , while the world is ashamed thereof , that is , the light by which Christ condemns all sin in their flesh , that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in them , as truly as in himself , and they walk no more after the flesh , but the Spirit ; by which also Paul was crucified to the world , and the world also unto him . And now whereas T.D. and those Divines from whom he must come to be divided , before ever he know his part in the undivided Christ , do ( uno ore ) confesse so far unto this truth as to tell it further , then they are aware , against their wills , while they tell us that the good works and fruits of the Spirit , and Christ righteousness within the Saints , and the obedience , which by him they are enabled to perform , are not onely that which makes men meet to enter , but are also all the righteous mens evidence for heaven both in faro ecclesia , & conscientie , for I know no man among them , that sayes any other then thus , that no men can know one another , nor any men themselves , to be Christs and heirs of heaven , and to have right to enter there , and that the faith in Christ which they professe , whereby they say they stand , entitled to the righteousnesse of Christ without them , is true , living , saving , justifying faith , and not fancy , dead unprofitable , and good for nothing , ' but as it is accompanyed with the other fruits of the Spirit and good works , which serve ( ●ay they ) to justifie every one that is justified ( without them ( say they ) in the sight of God ) in his own sight , and conscience , and in the sight of men : I shall take all our Doctors at their words , so far as they do yield , as Pharaoh did , to Is●ael by a little and little at once , in order to the winding of them in at last , whether they will or no , to yield us the whole Question in every inch of it , wherein they stick ( for we shall not ere we have done , leave them , so much as a hoof thereof behind , ) and while it is in and upon me , say something more to these two grants of good works , giving 1 st . meetn●sse for entrance 2 evidence of our T●Se to the in● heritance , and the truth of that faith , which though it never be alone ( say they ) yet along gives ( on our part ) true T●le to it : As then to the 1st , I mu●e what great difference there is [ but that they who where they should not , make two into one ( as T. D. does Pauls own righteousnesse and that of Christ in him , ) love as much , when they need not , to make one into two ] between the matter of merit , and the matter of meetness , that our Divines can digest it exceeding well , to have it said the fruits of the Spirit , and Christs good works and righteousnesse within his Saints onely makes them meet to inherit , but can't digest it at any hand , to have it said that these of Christ and his Spirit in them do meri● the inheritance or make worthy of it : Doth not the ●ame that makes meet and fit for , merit or make worthy of it , and enright to it in some ●ort , and in Scripture sense at least ? The whole course of which tells you not onely ( as you tell one another often , but that you often untell it again , when you tell that of necessity , men must sin while they live ) ●hat no sinners nor unri●hteous ones of any sort have in any wise any right to inheritance in the kingdome , or are either meet or worthy to be any where but without the holy City together , as fearfull , unbeleiving , dogs , and abominable in the lake of fire , but tells you also verbatim in many places , of all their and onely their right and worthynesse to enter , who by Christs power do the sam● will of God he did , and have and work the same righteousnesse that he did in himselfe , within themselves , 1 Thess. 1. They that suf●er'd for the kingdome were worthy of it , 21. Math. 8. Not onely they that came 〈◊〉 when bidden to the the marriage were unworthy , but such also as took them●elves to be entitled upon bare bidding , and so ( as you do ) ran in all the hast , and thrust themselves in , as those that had the onely right , and who but they the worthy guests , that thought there was no need , ( I speake after the manner of men ) of the ●l●ves and Ribbons , I mean the Wedding Robes of Christ righteousnesse to cloth their own persons , as if what he only wore 〈…〉 Theirs too , so far as to enright them ●hith●r , were ( for all their more bast then good speed ) thrust out at last , as u●worthy to be there , where had they been ●s well sui●ed , as they were willing to have the good 〈◊〉 might there upon , deservedly enough , since the invitation was free , and though a gift yet what more free the gift ? Have stayd there among the rest as worthy : And the few names in Sardis that had not defiled their Garment had right by promise , and so ex debito ( if promise ought to be kept , when made ) though gratis too , because the promise was freely made to walk with Christ in white , for they were worthy , Rev. 3.4 . I say worthy ex bene placito , for as much as nothing , but the free good will and pleasure of God , made him oblige himselfe to give a right to such ; and yet ( to confound that nice and needlesse distinction of Criticall Scholasticks , which hath confounded most Divines in Christendom into darknesse ) ex condigno , also , for as much as by Christs power and gift to will and do they both will and do what is required , as the Termes and condition , on which the thing is promised ; which consistency that I make between ex condigno & ex beneplacite , ex debito & ex dono , ex operibus & ex gratia , which T. D. and most Divines deeme to be 〈◊〉 or inconsistent together in the matter of mans iustification , being a 〈◊〉 , that few of them can get over , a meer gnat , at which they that in other things can swallow Camells , can't but strain , I am made free a little more here to uney. T. D. thinks he hath half knockt the Qua. for ever down into their dumps with his deep drawn argument from Rom. 11.6 . T.D. If by grace then it is no more of works , otherwise grace is no more grace ; but if it be of works , then it is no more of grace , otherwise work is no more work : whence ( quoth he p. 20. ) if justification be of works as you assert , then grace is excluded from having any hand in our justification , which is contra●y to the Scripture , which sayes we are justified by grace . Our justification cannot be a debt and a free gift . I mean not both in respect of us . And this he calls his irrefragabaScripture urged by him , that the hearers might be covninc't of the damnablenesse of our doctrine , who dare to talk of good works and perfecting holynesse bere , as ever we mean to see the face of God hereafter , which he and Th● . Rumsey el●ewhere call a Doctrine of Devils , and might ●●●th and detest us , as we deserve , and indeed finding his work fail in its force the day before , before the fire and the day , that declared of what sort it was , he prepared this against the 2d dayes dispute as his Corner-stone , setting it in the front of his second fight against us ▪ and the truth , and to this ( quoth he ) nothing was replyed . Rep. 1. A good cause why ( say I ) for there was no room for Reply , but like as Pilate , when he had askt Christ this Question what is truth ? As soon as he had so said , rose up and went his way , not staying to take his answer , so I well remember T.D. crouded in the next Argument , which I have answered already above concerning the works the Iews went about to establish ( which Argument is so neer a kin to this , that one answer may very well for both , in both places Paul by works , and own righteousnesse meaning no other then what are wrought without Christ by us , and not any that are wrought by Christ in us , ) I say T. D. crouded the one so hard on the back of the other , and past so soon from one to the other , that without interrupting of him , which he would ●●ve complained on as much on other hand , there could be no interposing of an answer , and so Pilate-like , not expecting it , he went his way to another matter , without it . 2. Yet now as to his Argument itself somewhat may be Replyed , and 1st if considered as in conjunction with its fellow that followes it so close at the heeles p. 21. from Rom. 10.34 . and beares such a broad shew of backing it , it is not so big , nor amounting to such a bulky Bulwark , but that one may easily put them both in a bag , if no more be said but this , that in both Scriptures as also Phil. 3. ( where as inconsistent he opposes his own , while a Pharisee to that of Christ within him when converted and a Saint , and Tit. 3. where he opposes the works ▪ of righteousnesse we have wrought to our being renewed by the holy Spirit , and makes grace and renewing by the Spirit all one , as well he might , for if we be not renewed by the Spirit and saved from the sin , then I say grace is no more grace for what use is it of to us , if we be left in , and unpurged from the sin , which Christ came to save his people from 1st , & so from the wrath of to come , which will come unavoidably on all that are disobedient , and unrighteous ) Paul opposes the gift of grace Gods righteousnesse to mans meer own works , which are not good though so thought by himselfe , and mans own literall righteousnesse of the Law wrought in mans will and Imagination onely , out of Christ the light and faith in him and the leadings and movings of his Spirit , and does not oppose grace to the righteousnesse of Christ in his Saints , or sanctification and holinesse , that is of God , by faith in the light , revealed in and received by every one that beleeves as inconsistent : for those are not onely concomitant but consistent and concurrent together to justification , as grace and Our works onely are ; not for these two do tollere se invicem , I confesse , so that if justification and life be of grace , it can't be of Our work● , et retro , if of our works , not of grace , but grace and Gods righteousesse , grace and those good works wrought in us by Christ , and for the doing of which we receive the grace , or gift of ability from Christ , these are indeed one and the same , and so Homogeneous or of one kind , that they may be Synonomous also , and bear both to be called mutually by the same name of either grace , or good works , and so are they throwout the Scripture , as one thing promiseuously denominated , sometimes by the Term of grace , somtimes the gift of God in Christ , the gift of righteousnesse , holinesse , &c. For all this is grace and free gift , and yet its inhaerent in us too , as the same that was in Christ , and being Christs as meritorious , ma●ing not onely meet but worthy also , in such measure as it s received in , as it was in a higher measure in himselfe , whether it be a gift to do , or a gift to beleeve , or a gift to suffer , as 2 Thess. 1.5 . Compared with Phil. 1.27 . To you given not onely to beleive , but also to suffer for his sake and they to whom this gr●●e was given were by God counted worthy of the Kingdome , for which they suffer'd ; and so Paul , who laboured abundantly in preaching the Gospell , sayes this work was the grace which was given him by Christ in him , by which grace also he was , what ere he was , that was worth any thing , having nothing but what he had received , that made him differ from another ; by which grace or gift all boasting and glorying in selfe was continually excluded , and the glory of all to be given still to God , and not flesh , man , and selfe : so that while Iudas could blame none but himselfe for being damned ; so Paul and the rest , though they wrought out their own Salvation , yet could blesse none but God , who wrought in them of his good pleasure 〈◊〉 to work , will , and d● , for their being saved by his grace , 1 Cor. 4.7 . 1 Cor. 15.10 . Eph. 2.8 . 3.8 . Phil. 2.12.13 . So that all along the gift of both faith and good works are both called grace ; yea , grace is no grace yet , to Salvation from sin , while men remain in their sins , and unsaved by it , and while the grace or gift of Gods righteousnesse , remaines onely in Christ without them , save onely that they are in a possibility to be saved , and while they yet witnesse not him , and it by him within themselves to the destroying of the works and Image of the Devill , which when they do , then , and not before ( let them pra●e of ●●ace as they will ) they know the grace of God in Christ Iesus , and then all 's grace , and by grace and not of works or themselves , or any righteousnesse of their own that they can thank for it , whatever they work in the light and leadings of it , in Preaching , Praying , Service , Worship , and what ere they have , are , enjoy , act , beleive , endure , or suffer for his name . And so grace and works , grace and the righteousnesse of Christ within us ( when mans own , which ye yet are onely in , and establishing your selves by , who hate the light and are out of it , is denyed as Rags , as it is by us ) do not destruere , but ponere se invicem , so well stand together in the matter of our justification , that indeed neither of them can stand in it , without the other . Neither is grace at all excluded , as T. D. injudiciously judges , from any hand in iustification by our asserting it to be of works of this nature , and establishing this inhaerent righteousnesse of Christ in us thereunto , but by this alone is grace perfectly ectablished : Neither are these in opposition each to other ( as T. D. sayes they are ) as immediate contraryes , as mens evill works and these good works of Christ in man were by me affirmed to be , but rather individually the same : and whereas T.D. saith our justification cannot be a debt and a free gift both , in respect of us ; to what was said above , which might serve to answer this , I adde my denyall of that position of his with my grounds thereof ; for howbeit in respect of the same time it cannot be a debt and a free gift too ; yet in respect of the same pers●ns with reference to d●fferent times and seasons it may ; for as it was nothing but meer mercy to lost man , and free grace , gift , and goodnesse to man on Gods part and not any debt or desert from God , on ma●s part , that 1 st . engag'd or mov'd God to give his Son , and to make promises in the Gospell to give his free gift of life eternall , and to make Christ the Author of it , to all them that obey him , and the meer grace of Christ to us , to come into the world a Light , and give himselfe a Ransom for all and to promise to give life to all that come unto him , and to God by him , that they might have Life and Salvation to the utmost ; yet seeing ( as I may say so ) God and Christ have by free grace , that moved them to make it , thus put themselves freely into mans debt , on Terms of their obedience , they are ( man performing the conditions on his part ) since then in justice bound to perform it : and so to the same Subject mankind , from whom God at 1 st . was altogether free , and to whom he was rich in mercy , and infinitely free in giving Christ , and making promises he is since on account of his truth engaged , if man be not wa●nting to him selfe , to make it good , and as it is in the like ca●es , among men , that promise which pitty , meer mercy moves to make , piety and equity require its making good , so 't is here , and it s no such newes ▪ but to such as are novices in the faith , to understand that which to the same persons was grace and free gift at 1 st . becomming a matter of desert , and due debt at last : So that though glory be to the grace and mercy of God , which onely moved him to say , when the wicked turnes from his wickednesse , and does what is lawfull and right he shall not dye , his iniquity shall not at all be mentioned to him , yet the wicked turning , Gods wayes are not so equall as he pleads they are , Ezek. 18. Against man whose wayes and thoughts are all crooked and unequall , if he do not now justify , and forgive the reforming evill doer : and having in his free favour said it that he that confesseth , and forsaketh his siSs shall find mercy , Iohn saith 1 Iob. 1.8 . If we now confesse our sins , not , God is gracious and mercyfull , though that be Originally the ground of all , and to be magnified over all his works , and is oft exprest to the wicked repenting , as the grand cause of Gods remitting 55. Isa. Let him forsake his way and thoughts , and turn to the Lord for he is gracious , but saith Iohn God is fa●thfull and just to forgive us our sins , and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness : So having refuted T. D's . irrefragable Argument , ( as he stiles it ) from that Scripture Rom. 11. Which I confesse is irrefragable in truth , but that T. D. wrests it ( being one of those unlearned and unstable ones in the truth , that Peter saith 2 Pet. 3. Wrest Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures to their own destruction ) I return to proceed in that , which I went away from by this profitable Parenthesis ( viz. ) to shew how the Scripture ascribes the inherita●ce as not onely meet for them that are meet for it , but their due de jure that do his Commandements , R●v . 22.14 . Blessed are they that do his Commandements that they may have right to eat of the tree of life and to enter throw the Gates into the Citty , but without are Dogs , &c. ( 1. ) without the Citty , and without Right to it , as well as without mee●nesse for it , who if they were other ( 1. ) doing the Commands they should have both mee●nesse , worthynesse and right and ( jure hereditario by right of heirship according to the promises made in that behalf ) should both duly , and ( keeping the condition ) no otherwise then deservedly inherit it ; as he that having a promise of the inheritance of a Citty in case he will adventure to storme , and overcome and win it , fighting and overcoming accordingly ( though the promise of it at 1 st . on such Termes was a gift ) may then claim it for his inheritance as of debt , and desert , which it is not onely fit and meet he should have , as on terms of promise on anothers part , & performance of the Terms required on his own , who ever helpt him in it , he is worthy as the right heir , one that hath due Title to it accordingly to enjoy and inherit : And indeed the very word inherit , which is so often-used both in the negative , where the wicked are excluded ; as no unrighteous one shall ever inherit and on the positive , and promissive hand , where the righteous are included , as he that overcometh shall inherit all things , doth ( if men were not praepossest with prejudice against the truth and with blind principles , which ( as its harder to knock an old peg out of its hole then to knock a new one in when that 's out ) there 's more ado to drive out of them , dispossesse them of , and draw them from , then would be to draw them to own the plain truth , if the darkness were once dispeld ) import no lesse then an entailing the Title of the Kingdome to the good works and fruits of the Spirit in us which are the Termes on which it is promised , on any name or thing abstract from these , which yet T. D. is so absurd , as his fellow A B C Da●ians in the School of Christ are , as to make in no wise a cause , but onely an effect of our justification and of our standing entitled to it on things without us , that are nothing to us , abstract from these : Whereas if that be true ( as it is in their own Schools ) that quo p●sito panitur , quo sublato t●llitur effectus , &c. That upon the being of which the effect ever is , upon the not being of which the effect can never b● , must needs be the cause of that effect , it s most uncontr●lably true that the good works and fruits of the Spirit in us , are not the f●uits and effects , but the causes , of some kind or other , of our just●fication ; and as the cause of every sort , if it be but causa sine qua non ( as they speak ) the cause that gives no influence , but only is a meer hangby yet , necessarily too , as a Cipher , is in order of nature evermore before the effect , so is our Sanctification , so antecedent to our justification even in the sight of G●d , that contrary to our Sch●●lmens Figments , who say justification is 1 st . of the two , so that God lookes on us as just , while unjust , before he makes us just , I say , till our Sanctification is , our being counted holy in Gods sight can never possibly be . Ob. And though it s said he justifieth the ungodly . Rep. I say , yea justification is ever of ungodly ones , yet never in , but from their ungodlinesse , as Sanctification and Salva●ion is of sinners , but not in , but ever from their iniquityes ; he clea●s the guilty , but by no meanes , no not Christs blood , so Exod. 34.7 . as to cleare the guilty while in their sins , or hold them guiltlesse as T. D. dreames he did David , while they are guilty of Adultery and murder , and while they are taking his name in vain , crying Lord , Lord , but not doing what he sayes , naming his name , but not d●parting from eniquity ; he makes Christ to such as believe in his Light Wisdom , Righteousnesse , Sanctification , and Redemption , but ( what ere some count ) he in no wise counts him so to any , any further then he doth so make him ; he sees no sin in Iacob nor tra●sgression in Israel , but it is because there it s done away , and remitted , not by pardon , without purging , but so as not to be committed any more , or if it be there 's new guilt contracted , and the sin imputed , till again remitted on returning ; but this Israel to whom he is so truly good are them that are of a clean heart Psal. 73. He will speak peace unto his people and his Saints , while they walk in wisdome , but let them not return any more to folly , for if they do they do , they must again hear more rough repro●f from him then ever , and find him speaking in wrath , and v●xing in his sore displeasure , there is a blessed man , to whom●he will not impute sin , whose iniquityes and transgressions are covered , but t is he in whose Spirit there 's no guile , Psal. 32.1 . So that I marvail what our Priests mean by Salvation , Iustification , Redemption and such like , when they say a Saint or a Sinner ( what should I call their mongrell seed ? ) may be in a State of Salvation , while they are in the guilt and filth of their sins , for I know but two things Christ saves his people from ( viz. ) from their sins and from the wrath , which is to come , and I know no Salvation at all from the wrath , which is the effect ; till there be a Salvation from the sin , which is the cause of it , for posita caus a p●nitur effectus as well as sublata tollitur , and I am sure none is there ( as yet ) from the sin , where men are not onely in it , and it in them , but singing loath to depart , and pleading for a necessary abode of b●th these ( themselves and sin ) together while themselves are abiding in the body . Yet T.D. so thinks , that to stand in sin , which is in the Reprobation , and yet to stand within the lists of Gods love and Election will stand so well both together , that David stood justified in Gods sight in that which if men had seen him in , he would not have been justified in their sight , who love sin more , and hate it lesse then God does , and yet all this altogether . But T.D. thou hast heard of God onely by the hearing of the ear as yet by hearsay from thy self and s●lf blinding Brethren , but when thine eye comes to see him , and he comes neer thee to judgment , wh●se comming , who in sin can abide ? and who in iniquity , can stand before him ? who is as Refiners fire to the drosse and Fullers Sope to the fil●h , thou shalt , for all thy seeming Saint-ship , Abhor thy selfe before him , and repent thy s●lf that ever thou talkedst of mens being in a state of justification before him , while under the guilt of sin ( as purer Saints then thy selfe have done , that have thought the same as thou dost ) in very dust and ashes ; and that walking in the fruits of the Spirit and holinesse of truth , must go before the sight of Gods face in peace , and that the sinner shall not see his face and live , thy selfe shalt see , whether e●er thou come to walk holily yea or nay . But alas to what purpose is it to tell our P●iests this , when they tell ( in effect ) the same one to another , yet believe not what they say themselves , but contradict it out of their own mouths as soon as t●e● have done , like L●●ards making good plain Prints with their feet in the Sandy ways they run in , yet dashing them all out , as the go with their long bushy tail●s ; they say no lesse then that Sanctification goes before justification in the sight of God , though they see it not , while they say fai●h , which they confesse is a fruit of the Spirit , the gift of God , a part of our Sanctification is that , that , as an instrumentall cause of it , goes before ●ustification , as that by which we are , and without and before which we cannot be accounted ●ust in the sight of God ; yet by and by again they tell us that justification , which is by faith , and so not before but after it , goes before Sanctification , whereof faith ( they say ) is a part , and that the leadings of the Spirit , and its fruits , among which justifying faith is reckoned up as one 5. Gal. A●ea f●uit and effect of our b●ing not under the Lawes penalty that is of our justification from the guilt of sin , so T.D. p. 16. Sometimes , to escape and slip away from the shame of this absurdi●● and contraction , they tell us , or at least some of them , that Iustification of Saints or sinners ( for I am to seek still what to call the Creatures they call Saints , for if I call them Saints , it loaths me to call such sinners Saints , as they Term so , yea , If they be Saints , which some so call , Then guilty sinners are Saints al , And if I call them that commit sin the Servants of sin ( as Christ did Iohn 8. ) and not Saints and Children of God , they will be ready to loath me ) I say then , they tell us that Iustification of sinning-Saints , painted and Saint-like sinners in the sight of God is without , and before Faith , or any thing else , even before sin was , or men either , from all Eternity , and from all sins ( pastnor present , I can't say here , because the sinning Subjects of this Iustification are not yet extant in the world ) but from all that ever is to come , and Faith by which the Iustification comes , is but an Instrument , whereby the Evidence of this long-since Iustification in Gods eye comes in to men , and manifests it to their eye , whereby the sinners themselves know it ; and as for other fruits of the Spirit , which are all the fruits of Faith too ( which I confess to be the first in being of all work ; truly good , so that without it 't is impossible to please God , and whatsoever is not of it and in it , but out of it , and out of the Light , in which it is , if true , is but sin ) these are onely as Evidences to us , and to others that the Faith we have is justifying and true , &c. and not dead and fained , and fit for nothing . So say they , In Gods sight we are justified , freely from of Old without Faith , or good works that follow and flow from it either ; this we know and are assured of , that Faith is opp●sed to it self as a work in the business of Iustification , and that Faith is imputed to us as being in stead of a perfect personal righteousnese , or that 't is the meritorious cause of our Iustification , I utterly deny ( quoth T. D. p. 24 , 25. ) but Faith without works is that by which we are formally justified , but the other , that is , good works , that by which we are declaratively justified ; in Pauls sense , who Rom. 3.28 . sayes , We are justified by Faith onely , without the works of the Law ; a sinner is absolved ( I wot he means in his own Conscience , for I know not when T.D. reckons , or whether at all God holds an Elected Saint guilty , if not David while he was guilty of Adultery and Murder ) In Iames's sense , Iam. 2.14 . who sayes By works a man is justified , and not by Faith onely ; a B●liever is approved ' ( quoth T.D. p. 8. out of Diodat . whose words he useth ) which approbation of a Believer in his Faith ( as true ) is both in himself and before men , so as they usually say by good works a mans Faith is evidenced to himself within and others without , to be a true living Faith , and so consequently his Iustification with God to be surely known , which was , but could not be seen or known to be before . Rep. Now therefore a word or two to the grant of our Antagonists , that Iustification is before ( in Gods sight ) but it can't be known to be by us or others , nor evidenced to us , so that we can stand as justified ones , or approved in our own sight and other mens , till we be sanctified and have both Faith , which is a fruit of the Spirit , and other fruits of the Spirit , which , if true , that Faith works by , as love , a pure heart , victory over the world , temperance , peaceableness , gentleness , and such like . Is it so Friends , that no man can appear to himself to be approved and justified in Gods sight , nor to himself or others be known that he is so , till he comes to believe , and do other good works of Righteousness , which first declare the thing so to be ? I wonder then how ye dare talk and affirm that to be , before good works , which before good works ye confess cannot be known so to be ; will ye ever be in your wills , thoughts , inventions and traditions , intruding your selves into that ye have not seen , and confess cannot be seen to be , as you say it is , vainly puft up in your fleshly minds , and entring into , and venturing to reveal and vent out Gods secrets , which ye say are secret and hidden to man , saying they are so and so , before the time you say they are first revealed to you in ? And telling men they are justified before God and loved , before they do any good , and bidding them believe this for true Doctrine from you , that 't is so , till they come to do good works , and that that 's the onely Evidence , whereby you can discern that thing so to be , which yet you say is so , before either by you or them it is discerned ? In his own secret thoughts ( say you ) and bosome Councels the thing stands so , that we are justified , but it s not revealed to us to be so , neither can we know it to be so , that we are justified , but from the time of our bringing forth fruits of Righteousness : Do not secret things belong to God onely , and things that he reveals , when he reveals them and not before , to you and your children to talk of ? Are ye not like natural bruit beasts in this , that you oft speak evil of that truth ye know not , and oft tell that for truth , which is not so , when ye know it not , and even confess it cannot be known to be , till evidenced by good works , and yet you will say 't is of a truth , before any of those good works by which onely the Evidence of it comes to you , be brought forth in you ? 'T is true , there be many things , in esse Rea●● , before they be in esse cogn●scibili , Real before they be visible ( though this Iustification of yours before Sanctification in Gods sight , which ye yield is before Sanctification , but Sanctification before it in your own sight , and in the sight of all men is not one of those invisible Realities , but ( if may so say ) an apparent , Real , visible non entity rather , and fancy of your own brain ; but what things soever are in truth , to us they are not so , as that we in truth , and of a truth can say , so or so they are , till the time that we come to see them , and that come forth , which is the onely Evidence , which we come to see them by ; and he that p●ates of that thing , as being so or so , which to him is not yet known so to be , is a buisie body , whose tongue runs afore his wit , his lips before the light that would lead him out of darkness , & his thoughts not a little out-run and out-reach his Reason . Tum demum , apud nos , res dicuntur fieri , cum incip unt patefieri , to us things are onely as they appear , so that whoever perks up and prates of what he knows not , and of matters that yet to him are not , which work ( which is that of the Priests in many things ) he that shall count him that 's in it a wise man , shall by my consent be canonized a fool for his labour . Iustification in Gods sight of a sinner is , say the Priests , before any Sanctification is at all in him , but neither the sinner can know that there is any such matter as pardon of his sin , or that he stands just in Gods sight appears not at all to himself , not yet is it evident to us , who tell him 't is so , neither can we know it any more then he , till Sanctification appear in him , from which as that which goes before it , ever in our eyes , we come to the sight ●f it : yet if he will believe us ( who speak of a thing we know not , and talk we know not what ) and if he will take our words for it , that his Iustification is before he be Sanctified ( who have no other Evidence of it our selves , or whereby to make it Evident to him but this of his Sanctification , which is evermore that which goes before the other , for ought we see or can discern , and if he will trust us implicitly at a venture he may ( but if he will not ( say I ) he may safely chu●e . And as to that speech of thine out of Dioda●us , I dare say it was not a Deo datus concerning good works justifying a man declaratively , and serving in Iames's sence to approve a Believe in the sight of men , for there 's not Truth in 't , if meant so onely and exclusively of their use to Iustifie formally , and absolve a sinner in the sight of God ( as it must be , if it serve that turn at all to which thou usest it ) yea , I contrarily affirm ( yet not denying , but that they do decla●e before men the Faith of him , that professes to believe in Christ to be true , and not hypocritical ) that they also tend as well as that t●ue Faith they flow from , to justifie formally , and absolve sinners in the sight of God. And though Paul Rom. 3.27 . concludes that a man is justified by Faith before God without the deeds of the Law ; yet he never concluded as you cloudy Expositors of him conclude of his words , which ye wrest , beside his Right , to your wrong meanings , any such ma●●er as that a man is justified before God without the good works of the Gospel , between which of Christs in his Saints , and those of the Law , which are mens own done without Christ of themselves , ye never distinguishing , run so far into confusion as ye do : which deeds of the Law done in mans own thoughts , willings and run●ings , and not in the Light and Spirit of Christ the Power of God , never reach the thing that is run after ( that is ) the fulfill●ng of it , without which there is no life , for the Law requires brick but affords ●o 〈◊〉 , good works but it gives no strength to weak man in the flesh , and fa● wherewith to perform ; ●o the Letter onely kills , and onely the Spirit giv●s the Life ; So both Paul and Iames , and we , as much as Diodate and T. D. do , for ever shut out them ; yea , and so much more , then any of you , do we deny the deeds of the Law ( so done ) as to the doing us any good toward our absolution before God , by how much we do both in our Life and Doctrine establish onely the deeds of the Gospel , while you , who doctrinally exclude the Laws deeds , do yet practically establish them to your Iustification ; for howbeit in words ye establish Faith , as that by which ye stand justified formally before God , yet that faith ye act , who believe God accepts your persons and perf●●mances without his Righteousness inherent in your selves , and while ye are yet impurged , and not so much as believing you can or must be here purged from your sins , is far from the true Faith of the Gospel , being no other then the false faith or true fancy of those , who were of Moses and the Law , that trusted in lying words , that could not profit them , Jer. 7. Isa. 1. Isa. 58.3 . who thought God did them wrong , if he justified and accepted them not in their fastings and services , though they never fasted from their iniquities , nor loosed the bands of wicdedness , as if when they had been at their formal humiliations for a day , they had procured some dispensation to let Hell loose again , and were then delivered to do abomination ; this kind of barren , leafy lean-faith of yours , who look for life in it , is one of those deeds of theirs , who were of the Letter and Law , and not that of them , who are of the Gospel Faith , which formally justifies before God , which who are of , are blessed with faithful Abraham . But now as to the Faith and other good works of the Gospel , which all are the works of God himself , and Christ Iesus working them in his Saints , among which Faith in the Light is the first , from whence others come , without which they cannot be , any more then it can be true without them , and by the Name of which Faith , for as much as all follow it , all the rest are denominated in gr●ss , John 6. This is The work of God , that ye believe on him whom he hath sent , these are the Righteousness of Christ and of his Saints , which is One , the being of which in them and in him , and not their being in him and not in them , is counted by God to them as their Righteousness , nor doth the Faith without them any more then they without it , both which concur as one cau●e thereunto , obtain formal Iustification in the sight of God. So that there is a doing some ; and sometimes the same ( material ) good , which deserves no good nor acceptation , but rather evil and reprobation from God , being not good formally , but evil before him , while the same , that does material evil also , does that good : and such was Cains sacrifice , which was else as good as Abels , yet had noacceptance by Right as the other had , because sin lay still at the door , and 't was not the Righteous one , but the evil-doer that did the good , and the sinner whom we know God heareth not , who had he done as bene as it was b●num that he did , and offered it as well as the thing of●ered was good , had been justified as well as his Brother ; If thou do well ( laith God ) shalt thou not be accepted ? Again there is a doing good , which deserves no Ill nor Cond●mnation , but onely Good and Iustification before God , being both bonum and b●ne factum also materially good and formally well done , and that , de jure promissi at least , entit●es to an entrance into the Kingdom : and such are all the good works done , on the Gospels account , in the Faith and Power of Christ the Light , and in the leading of the Holy Spirit , whether Faith it self , or Lov● , or any other that follow these , which are not of our selves , but by way of gift and grace from God , and strength from Christ received by us , who are weak in our selves , the fulfilling of the Righteousness of the Law , which is all fulfilled in this word , Thou shalt love thy Neighbour as thy self , for love worketh no ill to his Neighbour , therefore is Love the fulfilling of the Law , Gal. 5.14 . Rom. 13.8 , 9 , 10. and this is the Royal Law that gives Liberty from the lust to envy , or any other evil , that keeps from stealing , and killing , and adulte●y , and from falling in one point as well as in another , of which Iames sayes , if ye fulfil it , as by the Letter none are , but by the Light and Spi●it , which lead into the Love , the Saints are enabled to do , ye do well , Jam 8.2 . and what is well done , is twice done ; and so is every little that is done in faithfulness according to the measure of the gift received , as from and unto Christ , and lets in ( so far ) into the Lords acceptance , Matth. 25.23 . Well done good and faithful Servant ( was said on the improvement of two talents , as well as five ) thou hast been faithful in a few things , enter thou into the joy of thy Lord : This is that love which , when Cains wrath doth not , worketh the Righteousness of God , Jam. 1.26 . in the doing of which by Christs Power in our selves , and not by his doing it without us in himself , who not as without us , but as within us is the Iustification from the sin , and so the hope of glory , Col. 1.27 . he is made in us the Righteousness of God , and we the Righteousness of God in h●m . And his Light within , which leads all that in a cross to the lust follow him in it , to this Royal Life of love , is that Royal and perfect Law of Liberty , every degree of obedience to which is perfect , as it self is , and not imperfect as all that of those is , who are of the Law , and not of Faith ; and as thou T.D. imperfectly and weakly wottest this is , for though , as to the Law , Bonum non oritur nisi ex integris causis , yet I say of true Evangelial obedience , none of which is imperfect , for its Christs in us , Bonum oritur ex qu●libet actu , as well as Malum ex quolibet defectu : and howbeit any one or more good works ( as thou sayest p. 14 , 15. ) is not a fulfilling of the Law , done as Paul in his blind zeal did them before he knew Christ , while he served in the oldness of the Letter , and not in the newness of the Spirit : for then all the bonum he did , did but break the Law , being done not bene , and so what ere he did in any print , he was still guil●y of all , and in that na●●re he did it in , it was but Cains sacrifice , which was in the Reprobation , the Tree not yet being good : yet he that doth and teacheth the least of Christs Commandements given out in the Light , fulfils so far , that he so far enters by Right into , and shall be so far great in the Kingdom of Heaven ; in the observing and obeying of which Law onely Iustification , acceptation and approvement comes , as an effect of it , in the sight of God as well as in the sight of men ; and so Iames will be found affirming , though thy senseless self canst not ( looking in the Letter without the Light ) well see his sense ; which Law or Light who so looketh into , and continueth in the doing of what is there shewen , this man shall be blessed ( Mark ) in his deed , even with the blessedness described by David Psal. 32.1 , 2. and by Paul Rom. 4.4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. which is , forgiveness of iniquity , covering of sin , and non-imputation of it , which comes on all ( circumcision and uncircumcision ) tha●●elieve , without difference , Rom. 3.2 . as it came on faithful Abraham , whose Faith , with those works Iames speaks of Iam. 2.21 . which were the fruits of it , were not one without t'other , but altogether ( for they were Christ the Image of God , his operations in him , which thou also sayest p. 23. are called Christ ) accounted or reckoned to him as his Righteousness as well in foro Dei as hominum : for hereby ( saith God ) know I thou lovest me , because thou hast not witheld thy Son ; and again ( Mark ) because thou hast done this surely Blessing , I will bless thee , &c. as also it was said by Christ of Mary , Her many sins are forgiven her , for this cause , Because she loved much : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Cujus gratia propter quod , see Arias Mountanus : so Mark 19. If thou● wilt enter into Life , follow me , and we have forsaken all and followed thee ( saith Peter to Christ ) What shall we have therefore ? Ye shall sit on Thrones , saith Christ , and everyone , &c. so 2 Thes●● . 6 , 7 , 10. that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God , for which ye also suffer , seeing it is a Righteous thing ( Mark ) with God to recompence tribulation to them that trouble you , and to you who are troubled Rest with us , because our Testimony was believed among you : here Faith and sufferings are made the cause upon which by Right deservedly , and in Righteousness Rest is to be expected , as a debt by promise , though Phil. 1.29 . they are the gift of God to us , and not simply our Own works , to you it is given not onely to believe , but also to suffer for his sake . T.D. Does not the Apostle oppose Faith and Works ? Faith is opposed to it self as a work in the business of Iustification . p. 24. 1. Pamph. Rep. Faith is neither opposed ( as thou frivolouily supposest ) good works to the Gospel , nor yet to it self as a work in the business of Iustification , but both it self and all the good works , that are done onely in it , which together with it are the gift of God to us in Christ Iesus , who is ths Authour ; Worker and Finisher of them , in us , are altogether as the one good work or Righteousness of God and Christ in the Gospel , by which we stand justified before them , opposed to mans meer Righteousness and works of the Law , by which no flesh living can be justified ; and though Paul when he sayes to him that worketh is the ●eward not reckoned of grace , but of debt , but to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his Faith is counted to him for Righteousness , doth ●ppose Faith and our works , the Gospel and the Law , which is not of Faith ; yet when thou lookest with clearer eyes , who canst now see with no better then thou hast , thou wilt see that he no where opposes grace and Gospel good works , ●aith and the works of Christ in us , Faith and the fruits of the Spirit , of which Faith is one , much less ( as thou fai●est ) Faith , and it self as a work , but joy●s all these in One , as God and Christs single and singular gift of grace to us under the Gospel , as that one perfect and personal Righteousness by which , as a cause thereof , we are made meet or worthy to be justified in his fight , by which works & that of Faith together with them justifying us as a work , as well as an Instrument to receive Christ and his other operations wrought in us by it , all b●●sting ( as blind as thou art , not to see it ) is Eternally excluded , forasmuch as both it and the rest are a gift , as well as works given to us by him to perfo●m , For which the glory belongs onely to the giver and not to the receiver at any hand . T. D. thou sayest as p. 25. 1. Pamph. the Scriptures attribute our Iustification to the Righteousness of Christ in the same sense that they deny it in to works . Rep. That 's true , if by the Righteousness of Christ thou intend the Righteousness of his working in us , and by works those works of our working without him , but utterly false , if by his Righteousness thou mean what he works without us , and by works what works we work onely in him , for the Scripture attributes Our Iustification to this latter , as to the former it attributes his Own , of both which he beinh the onely Authour , not unto us ( O Lord ) not unto us at all , but to thy Name onely be the pra●se ; who dost not ( as thy supposed Ministers suppose meerly that thou dost , but far be it from thee so to do ; Shall not the Judge of all the earth do Right ? ) First count men just that are unjust , in this world , and not make them so till the World to come , but first justifie the ungodly from their ungodliness and make them Godly , and then countest them to be such as thou hast made them . But awake O ye divine Diviners , and see what a dream you are in , who deeming the Lord to be no other then like your selves , imagine your selves as pure in his , as you are in your own eyes , though ye are not yet washed from all your filthiness , nor yet believe you need be so in this present world ; whereas he that condemneth the Iust , and be that justifieth the wicked in his wickedness ( and I crow God is not an Abomination to himself ) both these are an Abomination to the Lord. And hence is one ground of your so miserable a mistake , in that ye take ( as ye confess your selves ) Iustification in its meer forraign , and not in its neer and proper signification ( viz. ) a counting , and not a making of them just , who are not so , whereas Iustifica●e and Iustificari is Iustum facere and Iustum fieri to make and to be made just , properly and p●imarily , and then consequently and secondarily to think and to be thought so ; but you fleeing afar off in this and many more points from proper names into forraign acceptations , that ye may be as far as may be from such Truths as most torment you , will needs ( in this world at least ) have the words to justifie and be justified , sanctifie and be sanctified , to import and found forth no more then injust●m & improbum justum , & Sanctum putare , & putari , & justificare , & sanctificare , & ri , in no wise to be Ex injusto , & improbo justum , & sanctum facere , & fieri ; as if in this life God having somewhat else to do , could not well have while to make people Iust and Holy ; and therefore ( they being also well contended so to be left ) did agree to leave them to the liberty of their lusts , under some certain toleration to live in them , and yet to think them Iust and Holy in the mean while , notwithstanding , and then hereafter , when men are more willing to it , and himself a little better and more at leasure to do it , to make them Iust and Holy by some P●pisb Purgatory in the life to come . But Friends , have a care however of what you do in this case , which is of no less then Eternal Consequence to your immortal Souls ; for assuredly let Paul and Iames himself , Iam. 2. determine it if you will ( whose sence T.D. thinks he hath 〈◊〉 on his hand ) yet you will find it so that ye can be no further justified then ye are sanctified in the sight of either God , or men that are after the heart of God : yea , if a man say he hath Faith , and have not works , can Faith save him ? Can it profit him ? Is it not dead ? Yea , knowest thou not O vain ma● , that as the body without the Spirit is dead , and can do nothing , so Faith without works is dead also , Is it not made perfect by works ? Was not Abraham and others justified by works ? See ye not then that by works a man is justified , and not by Faith onely ? Yea , quoth T.D. approved by men , but not absolved and accepted of God by works . Rep. then let Paul speak , Rom. 14.17,18 . The Kingdom of God is Righteousness , Peace and Ioy in the Holy Spirit , he that in these things seereth Christ , is acceptable to God ( thereupon surely ) as well as approved of men . Though therefore ye dream pleasantly while ye are awake and bless your selves , saying , Aha I am warm , I have seen the fire , becau●e in the Letter , where ye read by the halves , singling out of it what best suits with , and serves your sinful desires , and leaving out what serves to the crossing of your carnal lust , and corrupt affections , you have been flashily and more shalowly , then solidly , read of a Declaration of a Righteousness and good works of another , even Christ , whereby onely men can possibly come to be saved , never heeding at all that this Righteousness of that other is to be wrought in the Saints by him , who wrought it first in his own Person , before ever they can be justified by it , and their Salvation truely wrought out by it , which we confess is to be wrought out by it alone , and not by any that 's meerly mans own ; yet when ye come to see what a meer painted Paradice ye have been led into by that false flash of your justifying Faith , without works concurrent , which is but the fruit of your affectionate fancy , which would fain have it so , that you might be saved by Christ , and yet serve your selves , you 'l find that you and your whissling faith have in all this been but as Ig●is fa●●●●● going before , and Ignoramus fa●●●●● following after . And though ( to Ring back a little to you here to the Tune of F.Os. Talk , Mutaris murandis ) about this matter of Attonement with God by the blood of Christ , p. 125,126,127,128 . of his English Pamph. Ye King a Requiem to your Souls , saying with him Luke 12. Soul thou hast been disqu●eted , perplexed , and intangled about these considerations ( as all men are more or less ; without exception ) how thou mayest be Reconciled and at Peace with God , or have an attonment for that guilt , which ( Super ) naturally , thou art sensible of , and how thou maist attain to true blessedness , and come to the enjoyment of God ; and thou hast miserably groped up and down in the dark , not able to ●●me to any satisfaction what will become of thee in time to come , and no way able to stand against the uncontroleable convictions of thy own self-condemning Conscience : yet now Soul take thine ease , eat , drink and be merry , there 's merit enough in store laid up in the Righteousness that Christ wrought in that single body of his , that long since liv'd and died at Jerusalem for the sins of many years past , present and to come , so that there 's no need of any Righteousnesse to be wrought ( as in order to thy Justification and Peace with God ) in that sinful body of thine own , it must & may safely ( fith the Righteousness by which thou standst justified in thy sins ( as T.D. sayes David did in his murder and adultery ) resides without thee in another person ) ●●n as long as it lives : let the Pop●sh Merit-mongers run , when they have no good works of their own , to their Treasury of the Saints meritori●us g●●d works , the merit of which they buy of the Pope for money , and by which they have indulgence and pardon for all sin , for many years to come , and let the Qua. run to that Righteousness they talk of , which is to be wrought by Christ in the persons of men , before ere they can be justified with God , here 's that which shall administer to all and every one of us satisfaction as to all these things as Plenipotentiary to the quieting and calming of our spirits , and cut off any further enquiries , after such a thing as Goodness , Righteousness , Holiness , though that of Christs own working ( as the Qua. say ) in our selves in order to our peace with God ; here 's that that gives us wherein to acquiesce , and wherein we will be satiated ( viz , ) The Doctrine of the Scripture , which gives as glorious incontroleable a conviction of Peace with God by Christs Righteousness without us ( not within us , as the Qua. prate ) as that Light in our Consciences they tell us of , gives uncontroleable convictions of our sins : there it s revealed ( to those , say I , the eyes of who●e understanding are blinded by the God of this world ) that its Christ without , and not Christ in us ( or else the Devil and his Doctors are blind , say I ) which is the h●pe of glory , and upon which we are lookt on as no Repro●ates : So that O Soul , I would not have thee to cry out of wrath and wo , nor sing to thy self of Iudgement , but of mercy to the Lord , do thou sing : yea , I must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I have found an easie broad way to Life , by applying the good of another to my self as mine , as truely as if it were in me inherent , so that I need not turmoil myself as some do , and as the Qua. who cant beleeve that what Christ has is theirs till they see it conveyed and derived from him , by way of participation to themselves : We can beleive that all that Christ hath is ours , though all that we have is our own , and need not be forsaken for his sake : I have found that without me , which in vain , the Qua. seek elsewhere , as within them , waxing foolish in their Imaginations viz. the businesse of att●nement reconciliation and acceptance with God , which they are contriving to find by Christ within them , to the producing of such horrible effects and fruits , as tedious doing good and induring evill for their Tenets as we are loath to expose our selves to●● What have they not done ? What have they not suffered ? What miseries extitusque infelices , have not the Qua. puld upon themselves , ubivis gentium quo impelluntur Fanatici ; by their faith and doctrines of Devils , ( so I.O. of Qua. doctrines Ex. 3. S. 35.36 . and T.D. and T. Rumsey of perfect holynesse in this life ) let them meditate terrour and dream of dread and bring themselves into Bondage , we will cast these troublesome things far away from our thoughts , though we do sin , and he that commits sin is the servant of sin ( as they tell us ) yet whatever bondage we are in , to sin , we will not be under the spirit of bondage so far as to fear wrath , or dread any danger so long as with such a glorious soul appeasing light ( which say I , is the Devill transformed into an Angel of light in you ) the doctrine of satisfaction and attonement by the blood of Christ , the Son of God comes in upon us . This is , that that astonisheth us another way , so that we can't be astonish't nor afraid of any amazement about the matter of our our sins this conquereth all the Qua●●●s of conscience this ravisheth and satiateth our souls , that though we may , yea must sin while we li●e , yet they have been already reckond for with one that is Our Righteousnesse without us , though his Image is not formd , nor his righteousnesse wrought in our selves . This is the designed of the Apostles discourse to the Romans to prove justification by faith without works of ours by Christs righteousnesse imputed to us as ours to justification before it be infu●ed to our sanctification ( when the Devill is blind say I ) Oh with what glory and beauty ( to them that see so much , as we do in the worlds glory and the lust thereof ) with what full and ample satisfaction this Doctrine breaks out , this is that we looked for , this is that we were sick for want of the knowledge of ( being wounded by the light of God in our consciences for our sins and withall in such love to them , as to be loath to leave them or depart from them ) viz. to beare of a way or Saviour whereby to be sav'd in them , and that we have now found and though we once c●yed out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and were at our wits ends feeling our selves sinking to hell yet this Christ ( without us , without whom we also are feeling neither him us nor our selves in him ) this and not in the imaginary Christ of the Qua. within them is the stone , by which we will stay our minds in as perfect peace , as we can , by putting away the sense of sin , and the evill day far from us : Ex. 2. S. 28. Dicat quod quis que volet ex hac opinionem non dimovebimur . Though I say these things are in truth , the sum and substance of your sayings , the very Image , proportion , lively pourtraiture of your dead faith ; which ye count living , and saving , and justifying and what not ? Yet as the Lord lives you l find it dead , even thou I.O.T.D. and your fellowes , as well as we have done , who were as high in that supposed saving faith , but reall fancy , as your selves , and your selves utterly undone before the Lord for all that , when he comes to enter into judgement with you , as he hath with his own House , the Qua. where the Iudgement in these dayes hath begun : Therefor be ye warned , who seem to sit warm by this your fantastical faith and imaginary painted fire , for whatever ye think , and how ever ye blesse and flatter your selves , with hopes of true bliss● and blessednesse in this way , wherein ye erre , not knowing the Scriptures , which are true , but that ye understand them not , nor yet the power of the wrath of God ; Yet this is but your Own righteousnesse all this while ( 1 ) though reall , as in Christ , yet of your own faining to your selves , as yours , and yet not your own neither , so as that ye shall ever be saved by it , till ye come to put it on and be cloathed with it , in your own persons : It s but a fire of your own composing with wood and hey and stubble , and sticks , and straws ; that crackles in your conceits like that of thorns under a Pot , that will soon flap down , and not last longer then such flashy fuell as your fancies seed it with : it s not the joy of the righteous which the strangers , intermedle not with , which burns sure and sollidly and the more when cold water is thrown upon it . Yea from the Lord God , I say to you all , as t was said of old to such as trusted in the name of the Lord without his ●●ture , behold all you that kindle a fire , and compasse your selves about with sparks , walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks which ye have kindled , but this shall you have at last from the hand of the Lord , ye shall ly down in sorrow . And though in your pleasant trance , you sweetly sleep it our every one within your Tents , as in a Pavillion , and snort it our every one to another that your iniquityes are hid and your sins ( who declare your sin as Sodom , and hide it not ) are covered , and the Lord impares , them not , though ye are far from them , in whose hearts there is no guide , as if ye were those hidden ones of God , that he himselfe sees no sin in , because it s by Christs blood ( really and not imaginarily ) washt away : and though you Canonize your selves into the compellation of the Saints while in your sins , and then sooth up and comfort one another under that Title with smooth words , yet I●a . 29.7.8 . As a dream of a night vision , wherein an hungry , and thirsty man dreameth he eateth and drinketh , but behold he awaketh and is empty , and faint , and his soul hath apptite so shall all the maltitude of those meer ●imaginers and Image-makers be ●●yea , as in a dream , when one awaketh so when the Lord awakes to visit you ( 〈◊〉 do●ing dreamers ) he will assuredly despise your Image , Psal. 73. Yet T. D. sowes soft pillowes under the Arm-holes of his fellow Sainted-up-sinners , least they should 〈◊〉 under the unsupportable burden of their wounded Spirits , when the light begins to shew them to themselves , and judgement to take hold on them , and their own sins to slave them in the face ; Saying that a man once justified cannot become unjustified again in the sight of God , and what the Saints do , he heeds it not , so as to mention it to the Saints ; and would have the Saint by all meanes not be so senselesse , as not to hold the sense of his present interest in Gods favour and pure presence , though at present under the same sins , which God behold as Paule y iniquity in another , but as petty infir●●●●● onely in him , because he taketh pleasure 〈◊〉 in his ( sinning ) 〈◊〉 , witness David , who ( quoth T.D. p. 38 ) when he was guilty ( mark ) of Adultery and Murder was not in a condemmed state but in a justified estate , in proof of which I have said more , sayes T.D. to R.H. then this man or any of his brethren can answer ; in vindication whereof also when was urged and proved against him that David was then , and long after condemned in his own conscience Psal. ●● . 4. and therefore could not stand justified before God , who is greater then our hearts , and must ( if they do ) much more condemn us , ● Iohn 3.20 . T. D. Replyes ( most unanswerably indeed ; to what one might expect from one that sayes no Qua , can answer what he sayes ) all this , which is 〈◊〉 : ●● It does not appeare to me that David was at this time ( mark ) unjustified in his own conscience , but the contrary ; i.e. justified for he spoke those words , Psal. 5● . 4 . That thou might●st be justified when thou speakest and cleare when thou judgest after Nathan had come to him and told him that the Lord had put away his sin . Rep. Which coming of Nathan T.D. was then told ( but that he was so absurd as not to heare ) and hereby in told again , was after the Childe was born , and not while the adultery and murder was commited , which words of Nathan the Lord hath put away thy sin being spoken not till David had confest to him that he had sinned against the Lord , which was not till many Months after his vile sinning , do evidently evince it to any thats not wilfully blind , that for many Months his sin was not put away , but remained on the File , and that the Lord did not hold him guiltlesse , nor the light in his own conscience neither till he had truly repented from his sins . Yet least any poor Saint like sinfull soul should sink down , while he lyes in the sordid sink thereof , under sin & the sense of the losse of his interest in Gods love , since he is so deriled that he may easily suppose himselfe to stink in the in his sight . T.D. who hath not one in all his Apothecaries Shop ( for ought I find ) to save the soul of a Saint from sinning , hath another Antidote at hand , whereby to strengthen the hands , and save the soul of the sinning Saint from sinking so low , as to beleeve God loves or likes him , ere the lesse , when he has done : Yea , he is never without his Cordialls and Pills , to purg the head and heart from all sense of judgement , that that evill day may be put a far off and the Saints he past feeling of wrath , when they sin , and so be more secure in commission of it ; but Pills to purge from the sin it selfe ; he is so far from vending , that by his good will , he would have none of them licensed to be vented by the Qua. in the Country where he hath to do : Or if any course be taken to purge men throwly by calling them to perfect holynesse in this life , he takes to contrary a course to keep the men unpurg'd , as to mount against those , as against some cheating Mounte banks , as delivering no better then the doctrine of Devils , and to make men beleeve ( that are such infidells in Christ as to give credit to T.D. ) that 't is not possible to attain to such a purging as this in the body , no not by the very All-healing herb of grace it self . His Antidote to preserve the Saints from too deep a sense of their sins , is this , whereas the Qua , tell them , that if the light in their own consciences accuse , and condemn them from the face of God for sinning , there 's no God nor Christ that holds them guiltlesse , sith that of God within is his witnesse and vicegerent , that what it sayes and judges in them , is as the voice of God himselfe , and if that create trouble , man cannot create solid Peace . Tush ( quoth T. D for to the same purpose he talkes though not in totidem verbis p. 19. ) what tell you us of Conscience ; conscience is often erroneous , and not rightly guided in the very Saint . Talk of conscience to the wicked , its office is to be a witnesse against them for their sins , which if it do not check them , but tell them God loves , justifies and accepts them , when they sin , it s defiled , 1 Tit. 15. and leads them into a wrong opinion of their estates in that it testifies that their estate is good when it s nothing lesse , for to the impure is nothing pure ; but unto the pure all things are pure , and when the Saints sin and are defiled thereby , the office of conscience ( as a witnesse ) in them , if it do its office , is to cleare and comfort and speak peace , and if it offer to trouble them when they fall throw infirmity into fowl enormity , and dare be so bold as to darken their evidence of Gods love , and of their justification in his sight , when they are guilty ( as David was once of things not fit to be named among Saints ) yet I dare be so bold as to say it is defiled in the Saints , and testifies falshood to them also , in saying that their estate is bad when ( for all their sins ) it is good no lesse then it tells lyes to the wicked , that their estate is good when it s nothing lesse . Thus we have the unconquerable and that uncontrolable comfort which T. D. Administers to the Saints , when they become sinners , and fall into the same folly and filth with other wicked men , who is very a Boanerges or Son of thunder as he is in a few slight words , more th●n the same solid power with Peter and Iohn to the wicked ; yet to the Saints ( of his own coyning ) is he another Barrabas or Son of Consolation ; I mean not another of the same with him , who confirmed the Saints in their goodnesse and grace , but another of another kind , that comforts , confirmes and chears up his sinfull Saints in their sins , and dawbs them over , who are dirty enough already ( if such he Saints , as he sayes are ) with his own more dirty doings , who would have them live as justified in Gods sight , and as uncondemned in themselves as Saints , whilst ore head and eares in their sins . But will all this hold T.D. ? little did I once think ever to have seen such a dish of doctrine drawn by a divine from Tit. 1. 15. though unto the pure all things are pure , was wont the same way to be wrested by the Ranters ; and for my own part had I been minded to look for such a licenti●us piece of Libertinisme , as he would learn men from thence ( as I am far from it , knowing that in maxima libertate , there 's minima licentia ) yet I should sooner have lookt for a needle in a bottle of hey , as they say , then have lookt for the like from thence , or have scrap't in that Scripture to find it , if T.D. had not told me , it had been there ; where yet ( for all his telling me of a justification of a Saint in his sins ) I cannot yet find or see such a thing , nor any else I ( beleeve ) but such as are as blind as himselfe : for the light in the conscience of both good and bad , doth tell them infallibly what they are , and testifie to the face of the best man in the world , that God doth not justifie him while he sins ; which witnesse of God within their own hearts is greater then the witnesse of man , and will have audience at last , when it begins to speake out , when such a one as I , may easily be slighted , who witnesse onely for God from it , and therefore I shall say but little more to this matter ; neverthelesse when T.D. and his un●ust justified ones , come once to feel it stand upon its feet , which like an innocent , just , h●ly Lamb , hath been hitherto slain by the beast within them , because it torments them with telling too much truth , great fear will then fall on such as see it , and have made merry over it in its captivity , and at the same time , there will be a great Earthquake , and lightnings , and voices , and terrible thunderings , and great hail out of heaven , the Plague whereof shall be exceeding great , every stone perhaps about the weight of a Talent , Rev. II. Rev. 16. the storm of which shall overthrow their open hiding places and sweep away their refuge of lyes , and disanull the Covenant , which these D unkards of Ephraim have made with death and hell , and passe over them like an overflowing scourge , so that they shall be all troden down by it : Iudgement also shall be laid unto the line , and righteousnesse to the plummet , Isa. 28. To take a more exact account of them before God , then they are willing to give of themselves , who now not knowing the goodnesse and grace of God within them , which in his love , as a light , is given to teach , and to lead them unto Repentance , Tit. 3. 13. Rom. 2. 4. to 13. Are in the hardnesse and impenitency of their hearts treasuring up wrath to themselves against the day of wrath and the Revelation of the righteous Iudgment of God , wh● in the day when he shall judge the secrets of men , by Christ Iesus the Light according to the Gospell , that Paul himself preached , will ( mark ) in his righteous Iudgment Render to every man according to his deeds , ( viz. ) to them , who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory , honour and immortality , eternall life : Yea , glory , honour , and peace to every soul of man ( mark ) that worketh good : But unto them , that are contentious , and do not obey the truth , but obey unrighteousness , indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish upon every one that doth evill without respect of persons , yet the Iew first , who say they are Jewes , and are not , but do lye , and are the Synagogue of Satan , and also to the Gentile ; then shall they know that such as sin , whether without the law , or in the Law in the Letter , shall be judged respectively ; by that letter such as have it , and all by that light in the conscience , by which all are a Law to themselves , and that it is not the Hearers , and Preachers , and Praters against the Laws justifying , but the doers of the Law onely by the power of Christ , which onely does it , shall be justified . Three or four more of T. D.'s . ( in comparison of what we might expect from him in satisfaction ) most unanswerable answers to such Arguments , as were urged by us in proof of Iustification by the Spirit of life and grace of Christ in us , and by his fulfilling the Law in us , throw the condemnation of sin both in , and cleare out of our flesh , and by our walking not after the flesh , but after the Spirit , as a cause that gives Right and Title to it , I shall speak a little to , and then dismisse T.D. as to this point , till I meet him again in other matters , about which he joyns in with J. Owen , with whom I must come to joyn again too by and by , about the Scripture and the light , and some other things , least he thinks I am lost in this long bout with T.D. So as to be run quite away and never meane to come at him any more . The 4. Scriptures alledged and out of which it was argued in proof of the point above said were I Cor. 6. II. Rom. 8. 2. Rom. 8. 4. Tit. 3. 7. To the Ist. , And such were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are santified , but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Iesus , and BY the Spi●t of our God , whence 't is to be observed that the Corinthians are said to be justified BY the Spirit . T.D. Replyes I might say that perhaps that Clause should be referred to sanctification , which is in a more appropriate manner attribu●ed to the Spirits efficiency , as if the words had been , but ye are sanctified by the Spirit of our God ; and he gives his instance for the transposition from Math. 7. 6. give not that which is holy to dogs , neither cast your Pearls before Swine , least they trample them under their feet and turn again and rent you , where turn again and rent you , is to be joyned to the dogs ( quoth T.D. ) for as Swine do trample under their feet , so dogs do ●ly upon a man , or teare him down , or else justified by the Spirit , may be meant of the Spirits application , I mean ( quoth he ) the 3d. person is the Trinity , not of the work of grace whereof we are the Subject . Rep. To all which I Reply thus Ist. let the Reader observe how T.D. dances between two , and serves the turn of truth against I.O. who blames the Qua. and others for denying the Text of Scripture to be such a certain , immoveable , stable , 〈◊〉 , Standard , Touchstone , of all truth as he contends it to be , and for calling it a Nose of wax , not infassible , because flexible to every mans fancy , while the said TD . by his twining it , which way he finds will fit him best , proves it so to be , no lesse then practically , to our hands , yea , quid verbis opus est , cum facta loquuntur , doth not T.D. make a very Nose of wax , a Lesbian Rule a meer peice of lead of the letter , a Reeling Rule , in unstedfast standard , when he plucks it to peices as he pleases , and makes many meanings of it , and then out of them , still takes that that best takes with him , and makes most for his own penurious purpose , for sometimes he turns one Text into two senses , and when he hath twatled one Text into two senses , and is so betwatled in himself , as not to know which of the twain to betake himself certainly to as the Spirits , sayes it must be either t'one or t'other , or it may be either this or , that thrusting out the third , be it nere so plain and obvious , if it clear the Qua. cause when indeed ( exclusively of the Qua which is most right and true ) its neither this or that , nor t'one nor t'other ; witnesse the Text in hand ; sometimes again gives three senses to one Text , witnesse Ioh. I. 9. to which position of Christ , that true Lights enlightning every man that cometh into the world , he puts three ( viz. ) p. 6. 1. Every man that is enlightned ; 2. Some of every Nation , and 3. p. 36. Everyman who is ( spiritually ) enlightned to which three I.O. who joyns with T.D. in one of his three , saying everyman is not spoken absolutely of all , and every man , but with Relation onely to the Elect , whom he is gratiously pleased to enlighten , being not contented with that one single simple sense , doubles his Files , and adds a fourth sense more nonsensicall then all the rest , which as senselessely he serves from that Scripture phrase as 't is in the Greeke ( viz. ) not as the Qua. speake Christ enlightens every man coming into the World , but thus the true light coming into the World , enlightens every man , making the participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which ( but that , considering the order and placing of the words in the Greek , it s far more cleare that way wherein it s construed by the Qua. considering its Analogy ( as so ) with the whole scope of the Scripture also ) might with more colour , then now it is , be wrested the wrong way , as it is by I.O. and be construed as c●ookedly as 't is by him ; but as much as he hopes to overtop the truth with standing upon the double construction of a Greek Term ; yet he cannot , by all his taking so much thought about it , add one Cubit , nor yet an irch to the Stature of his 〈◊〉 talk from that Scripture , but rather pulls him self a pegg or two lower , if ( though yet we will not ) we should grant him his will in his own way , as to his double cause both about the letter , and against the light : For if the Originall Text may be so doubtfull as to be truly construed two ways in one phrase , or place ; How fit such a flexible thing is to be counted the onely stable and infailible guide , as he pleads it to be to meet fallible men , a more foolish wise man , and silly Scribe , then I.O. is , cannot but se● : And as to the true Lights enlightning every man , which he impleads thereby , what gets he , if we grant him his own improper exposition ? for whether we read the true Light enlightens every man coming in the to world , or the true Light coming into the world enlightens every man it amounts to one and same still , and both are Tanta mount to no lesse then what the Qua. stand for , and I.O. and T.D. against ( viz. ) that the true light , which is come into the World , Joh. 3. doth enlighten every man that comes into it . So here 's more then a good many ( viz. ) 3 by T.D. and 2 by I.O. whereof one is of the 3 , and t'other a fourth beast divers ( like the fourth in Daniel 7. 7. ) from all his fellows , that is to say between them both . 4 meanings in all , made of one Text , which 4 mean all together to exclude the Quakers fift , as an odd one , though the onely true one , that without mincing and pinching in the mind of the Spirit is there intended in the Text by the Spirit , in which it was written ; for though their senses are some of them true enough to serve out turn , yet ( as they mean ) not so fully as the Spirits true one ; in proof of the truth of which , when we , who are of the light , and of the day , and so needing no proof of it to our selves , it s so cleare , do tell them , who are of the night and darknesse , that our meaning is drawn from the import of the Phrases , and ours is the very meaning of the Word , as the Letter of them doth import , and ours is the most genuine interpretation of the Words , as they are taken in the most Ordinary and literall sense of them , and that their meanings are far fetch● , fOrraign and every way improper ; T.D. wipes away all this with a wet finger , and though himself I know not how o●ten argues ad libitum , which way he will , and none must controle him , yet me mutire nefas , we must be tyed to take such a sense as is imposed on us : As for him he argues sometimes from the figurative and me●onimicall as p. 22. Christ is said ( quoth he ) to be in us by a metonymy of the cause for the effect : so p. 44. holynesse of that state of the Resurrection is cal'd perfect by a metonymy of the Subject for the adjunct ; sometimes from the forraign and more unusuall , yea improper ; sometimes from the most ordinary , usua●l , genuine and proper signification of the words , sometimes from ( as he saith at least , but falsly ) the literal sense and import of the phrases as p. 4. As for the Phrase ( in your hearts ) it imports the same ( quoth he ) with that , &c. And p. 5. when the Kingdom of God is Luk. 17. 21. by Christ and his , said to be in the Pharisees that expression may import ( quoth he ) that the Kingdome which they upon a mistake did look for without them , was indeed a Kingdome within them , and that ( say I ) is very true , T.D. himselfe hath there imported the very truth for the expression ( in you ) imports the Kingdomes not being whi●hout them in the outward observation , wherein they lookt for it , but really within them , as he said , indeed : neverthelesse T.D. who is like his Father , that ab●de not in the truth , cannot abide ( when he happens to be in it ) to be long in it neither , and is never well till he is out of it again ; therefore when by hap hazard , he had utter'd the truth from the right imp●rt of the Phrase ( in you ) cannot rest till he has chang'd his mind , and to his first and true , hath added another 2d and false meaning ( so mightily is he enamoured with many meanings and senses ) and therefore addes another as false as his first was true from another import of the same expression , as wrong as his first was right : Thus , To which I shall add ( quoth he ) that upon 2d thoughts ( secondae cogitationes are mostly meliores , but are ( I must not say maliores , for that were false Latine , though true in English to him that can English it ) but longe pepres in this place ) I judge the most genuine interpretation to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among you , so the Preposition may be rendered in which last import of T.D. the case is so altered from what it was before , that is stead of that one truth ( could he have kept to it ) he uttered before , he hath now uttered more errours , and falsities , and absurdities then one , for if the Proposition i● may be rendred among , and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may possibly sometimes ( as , if ever , it seldom does ) import among you , yet first it is not usual nor ordinary , much less its primary , proper , literal , nor ( as T.D. calls it ) its most genuine , but a most unusual , forraign , secondary , illiteral , ingenuine and improper import ; and 2. in very deed , if T.D. will vouchsafe that Scripture , Luke 17.22 . a Review , he may come to return to his first judgement , which he past in truth ( viz. ) that the Kingdom was indeed within them , and upon his second looks to Judge as Right , as he went from , the Right to Iudge amisse upon his second thoughts , for what ever 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may improperly import , yet in the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which imports not among you , and can properly import no other sense then truly and properly within you : in in opere longe obrepsit somnus , as I.O. saith , and sith Non Divinum , but Humanum est errare , Aliquando bonus dortat Homerus : But however there 's two meanings to that one Scripture ( as T.D. sayes ) it may import so , or it may import so ; so that the Reader of T. D. may take his choice , and read his inalterably Reeling-Rule of the Scribes wrested Scripture which way he will , and not let it Rule him , but Rule over him as he listeth . Thus these two men T.D. and I.O. impose as many meanings , according to their own minds , which are not the same that was in Christ , as they see good on the Scriptures , and in stead of Reconciling them , and letting people ( to whom T.D. sayes , They seem to be at va●iance among themselves ) see how well th●y are agreed , and in stead of causing them like the Cherubims , to face one another , which T.D. sayes p. 4.36 . is his dury and part of their work , they set them at variance , by their several senses on them , and pervert them by their Perhaps's , per adventures and pratings against the Phrases most proper , and for and about their own improper imports , saying perhaps it s so , or else perhaps so , the Expression may import so , but upon the second thoughts I Iudge rather ( for it may be s●●rendred ) the most genuine interpretation is so , the meaning is not so as the Ph●ase imports , it must be either so , or else so , or else so , or else so ; as who should say , we 'l have it any way , rather then the Qua. shall have it theirs ; and cause it to face three or four wayes at once , if never a one of them be right , and altogether against within , where the onely true way is , which wayes the Cherubims alwayes lockt , with their faces onely inward : and they make to it not onely many meanings , but any meanings , though never so uncouth , and contrary to truth , sense and reason , so they may but wave off and wind away from the right true meaning and mind of Christ , Luke 17.22 . The Kingdom in you is not without , but indeed within you ; and yet upon second thoughts quoth T.D. it is not in you , but among you , p. 5. and Rom. 8.4 . The Righteousness of the Law said to be fulfilled in us , imports not in our persons , but in Christ ; p. 17 . and Omnes , everyman is not every man , but of every sort some , Omnes is not all , but here and there one ; p. 6 . so see I.O. Exer. 4 . Sect. 24. Hoc est Syncategorema istud Omnis , the world , whole world , John 3. 16. I John 2. 2,3 . not the whole world , nor the most of it , but the Elect onely , that are out of it , not of it but a few in it , as T.D. at the Dispute ; so that on this soore our Scribes scape Scot-free still by their shifts . To meet with Quakers Priests need never doubt , Nor need they when they meet them f●ar a Rout ; If ( All ) 's but ( Some ) ( Out ) 's ( In ) and ( In ) 's for ( Out ) Then they are Alwayes ( In ) and never ( Out ) Thus the seed of the Serpent saves it self alive in its enmity against the Holy Seed , not so much by plain down right dealing , nor any bold open facings of the truth , quae non quaerit argulos , but by cowa●dly creeping into corners , shameful sh●frings from sense to sense , mi●●rable marchings from meaning to meaning , ●o that one can hardly know well where to have them , nor how to find them , nor what they mean , any more then they , who know not which way to take , when they have two or three before them of their own devising , nor very well what to mean , nor very distinctly what they do mean them●elves . But as for us , Nos mutire nefas , we may not safely without their censures , so much as take the Scripture to be what themselves are neither afraid nor ashamed to make them ; ( viz. ) a Lesb●an Rule , a N●se of Wax , which may be made ( yet scarcely is by any more then themselves ) to shew it self in 7 , 8 , 9 , shapes at once . And though they dare Di●pute themselves and argue any way from figurative and f●●a●gn , and proper and improper , literal or mystical meanings and importments of words and Phrases , yet they can well digest or di●pense with none of all this in us , and least of all when we do ( as we mostly or ever do ) keep to the ●rue , hon●st , ordinary & plain purport of the words , as they lve open and clear to every ordinary and common capacity that is willing both to know , own and do the truth , but rather will take any , and if one will not serve , two mean●●gs at once , or one after another , whereof one overturns t'●ther , to cross the truest by , and leave the Reader to chuse , which best likes him of two or three , so be he will leave that single one of the Qua , witness T.D. who takes on him to domineer over all our truly Divine ones , with his different , dev●sed and divided ones ; who , when R.H. puts that one true one , even the same that is expressed in the words on 1 Iohn 9. Puts two meanings to oppose it , adding p. 35. I would have him to know that both the meanings are the Holy Ghosts , though but one is intended in that place , the Ph●ases will bear either senses ( that is ) those aforesaid , and either of them c●●ss his interpretation ; and p. 6. the meaning of those words Iohn 1.9 . cannot be as the l●●tter of them does import , but it must be either every man that is enlightned , or else some of every Nation : and p. 7. It was usual with Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , Christs meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be if by every man we should understand every individual man ; so that 't is your self ( quoth he to G.W. ) and not I that am such a giver of meanings , as the Iewes , who gave theirs contrary to Christs meaning : and p. II. when to prove perfect purging from sin , here I urged Psal. 119. 1,2,3 . Blessed are the undefiled in the way , &c. They do no iniquity , as for the Phrases ( quoth T.D. ) they are hyperbolical ; thus any T. Y is used to turn the Truth off with : and p. 9. when R.H. urged 1 Iohn 3.9 . Who so is born of God doth not commit sin ; T●at cannot be meant of freedom from sin , but either there is an Emphasis in the word sin , intending by it one sort of sin ; Or , if not on the Substantive , on the Verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which notes to make a Trade of sin : So p. 16 . to the Scripture under hand , 1 Cor. 6. 11. Ye are justified by the Spirit of our God , urged by us to prove Iustification by the Spirit in us . I might say ( quoth T.D. ) Perhaps that clause should be referred to Sanctification , or else justified by the Spirit , maybe meant of the Spirits Application , which is as much as to say , Perhaps it s this , perhaps it s that , but I well know not , whether this or that : so that the Reader may of two take either , But will ( say I ) is wise , take ●e●ber ; for though two strings to his Bow still T.D. hath , for fear one should snap , yet neither of the●e here will hold on T.Ds. side so much as Ours , nor if both could be twined so as to stand together in one ( as they cannot , they are so divers and destructive to each other ) would they prove strong enough to reach the Butt , so but that by his overshort shooting T.D. at this time will loose all he shoots for . For first to begin next with thy last clause , wherein thou dar'st , or at least dost Preach out thy meaning not positively , but possibly only , or by Perhaps , as in the first , that justified by the Spirit , may be mea●t of the Spirits Application , meaning the third Person in the Trinity ( as thou Term'st it ) which Phrase of justified by the Spirit , if it may imply such a thing as the Holy Spirits Applying Christs Righteousness to us , yet must it needs imply such a far-from , Antick Applying , as thou implyest , who falsly imaginest that to be truly Applyed to men , that stands at such a vast distance , as to be no nearer to them then Heaven is to Earth ? If the Spirit of God Apply Righteousness to any man for his Iustification , doth he do it by the halves , as thou vainly hopest , so as to impute it , where he doth not convey it ? Doth he not do it in a more perfect manner then so , as to give him his share , part or place in it , without its having its share , part or any place at all in him ? Is it false doctrine , as thy self p. 39. Rela●est R.H. Relating thou said'st it was , to say a man must fi●st partake of the Righteousness which justifies , before it can be imputed to him as his ? And that is that a mans Righteousness any otherwise then Imaginarily ? is it so truly , properly and perfectly , that he partakes no more , & hath no more partin , nor participation of then meerly by way of computation and supposition onely , so as to be counted to him to the steading of him , till it be some way or other also actually and really conveyed to him ? And grant we be justified by the Righteousness of another onely , and not our own ( yea cur●ed for ever be and will be that man ( say I ) that looks for Iust●fication by any Righteousness that is meerly his own ) Eccl. 7. 15. for the righteousest man , that is onely in his own , perisheth in his Righteousness , and I have seen such a one as well as Paul , he that ever comes to Gods Righteousness , Rest or Sabbath , hath left and lost his own Righteousness , hath ceased from his own works , as God did from his , Isa. 58. 13. Hab. 4. 10. yet is there not a Righteousness which man lives in the doing of , that is done in the assistance of another ? Did David not say , Let integrity and uprightness preserve me ? Is there not a Iust man that walketh in his integrity , and that lives in the doing of the Equity ? Ezek. 18. Can there be ( as thou falsly and lyingly , boldly and blindly sayest there cannot p. 40. ) no way of conveyance of that others Righteousness , so that thereby the benefit of it may redound unto us , as truly as if we were every way the Subjects of it , but by imputation ? Can it at no hand be conveyed from that other to us by impartition first , and then by imputation to us , as most truly , really Ours , and not fictitiously onely , afterwards ? Can we by no means be truly said to be the Subject inhesive of it , and yet it be said to be not Our own properly , but onely anothers Righteousness , working it in us ? Is there not a Subjectum in quo , which yet is not P●r qu●d , as well as a Subjectum cui ? A Subjectum Inhaesionis duplex ( viz. ) secundum formalem inhaerentiam Originaliter , & primario , & secundum formalem inherentiam derivative , & secundari● , as well as Secundum extrinsecam adhaerentiam & imputationem : a Subject in which the Righteousness of Christ is wrought ( viz. ) man , which is not ( save as an Instrument ) he by whom it is wrought , but a vessel ( as it were ) in which it is Revealed and Received , into which through Faith in the Light , which is the gift of God , and a part the●eof ( also ) it is in part conveyed before it is imputed , unto which said Subject , but as thereinto it is conveyed , it cannot possibly be imputed , from him that calls no evil ones good , more the good ones evil , more the good ones evil , and unrighteous ones Righteous , the pure onely pure , and all that 's impure impure , nor shews himself in any shape ( save as a Iudge ) to any , but the pure in heart , and the inhaerent Subjects of his own Holiness , without which none can see him approving ? Must not both he that justifieth , and they that are justified , as well as he that sanctifieth , and they that are sanctified , be all of one , Heb. 7. 11. be all as one , in one na●u , reimage , ga●b and cha●hing , that so he may not be ashamed to call them Brethren , who will b● ashamed of all that are ashamed of him and of his words , Mark. 8.38 . and is ashamed to call them Brethren , who are not ashamed to be Brethren in iniquity ? Can that be accounted and reputed by that Most Holy Head , a part or member of his unspotted Body , that is yet filthy and unholy , or before he hath in any measure at all purged it , and made it ho●y & fit for himself , that is yet full of spots , and wrinkles , and blemishes , as upon thy Principles T. D. must be supposed ? Will God esteem any just , clean and pure before , I say before so much as in order of nature he hath justified them by his Spirit ? will he before he hath washt and sanctified them ? Hath any unrighteous one , while he is yet unrighteous , and before he be made Righteous , a Right to the Kingdom of God ? Is it not more then is to be read in any Scripture , but the Scripture of the Scribes , that from the example of David would fain be found justified , and favoured of God , for the sake of anothers goodness , that they put far away from them , that they might be more free to , then from their sins ? Are there not yet treasures , treasuries of wickedness in the house in the heart of the wicked , and the measure of leannesse , which is abominable ? and shall I count them pure with their wicked Ballances ( faith God ) and with the bag of deceitful weights ? Mic. 6.10 , 11. T.D. Yes ( quoth T.D. ) Why not ? For the Purity and Righteousness of another that was made sin for us , though he knew no sin , that we who yet know no Righteousness of our own , nor of his neither within our selves , might be made the Righteousness of God in him : from that Scripture 2 Cor. 5. Rep. T.D. then be like accounts that we are but just so , and not a jot otherwise , then as he was made sin for us , made the Righteousness of God in him ; & so as he was made sin , that never committed any sin , & was accounted a sinner , that never was so by either nature or practice in his own perso● , had though the Realty of our sorrows , sufferings and miseries , but the meer imputation of our iniquities ; so we must in him be made Righteousness , but never perform any , and be accounted Righteous , but never be so by nature or practice in our own persons , and have the Reality of his Rest , Peace , I●●es and Eternal Blessedness , but the meer imputation onely of his Holiness and Obedience , and as God laid , lasht and punisht on that innocent immaculate Lamb without spot , that never owned nor delighted in any , but ever hated all iniquity , the iniquity of us all , seeing he was willing to become a curse for us all , to bear our cross and take our shame upon him , so he will put upon such Saints all , as T.D. calls himself and others , while in their sins , as never owned nor delighted in , but ever hatred the doing of Righteousness altogether in their own persons , the reward of all his personal Righteousness , seeing also they are as willing as as he was to be accu●sed for them , to be blessed in him , to bear his Crown , and take all his dignities and glory upon themselves ; for the words of T.D. are these ( p. 21. ) T.D. How he is our Righteousness , 2 Cor. 5. ult . tells us , as Christ was made sin for us , so we are made the Righteousness of God in him ; but the former was by imputation , not inhaerence , and therefore so the other . Rep. How now T.D. what is it so indeed , even so and not otherwise , that as Christ was made sin for us , which was , secundumte , by imputation onely , never inherence , so we are made Righteousness ( i.e. ) by imputation onely , never by inherence ? Art thou not a loud lyar in this ? If not , then farewell all hopes of ever having any Righteousness at all in themselves , to those blessed ones that hunger and thirst after it , not only in this world , where such are to be filled , but also i● that World wich is to come ; and as for such as hating Righteousness , are in hopes to be held Righteousness , and saved without it , and by that alone which is in Christ without them , they need not fear so much as they do its entrance so far into them , as to have Dominions over them , for if his word be worth taking T.D. warrants them , that as Christ never entred into t●a●sgressi●● , though he was tempted to it , nor transgression into him , but it was onely accounted to him , so as to be Rewarded with evil upon him ; so God will never let them come into his Righteousness , nor let it come into them to trouble them with that tedious transformation of them , from the fashions of this old world , by the renewing of their minds , into a new Creature , but onely adde or leave them to adde iniquity unto their iniquity , that when the iniquity of these sin●ul Saints is at the height , the Rewa●d of Christs Righteousness may be given them . But seeing there 's no such haste , nor much need to make mad folks run , who can find the way fast enough to Hell , whether ( facilis discersus A●●rn● ) the descent is easie , and the Devil eager and skilful enough to drive them without T. D.s doctrine to help him , I shall check the wilde A●lies Colt in his course , which lacks much more to be fetcht in with the Spirits Bridle , then forc't on with T.Ds. Anti-Scriptural Spurre : in order whereunto I deny the first Proposition of T. Ds. last Argument , as utterly untrue , for that Scripture 2 Cor. 5. ult . tells us not so ( as he faith it tells us ) it doth not say ( as ) Christ was made sin for us ( s● ) we Righteousness in him , as T.D. Repeats it to the perverting of it , as by his perverse Readings , Repetitions , Rendings , Renditions , sundry silly senses , and manifold foolish meaning he perverts many more : But it faith of God , that he made him sin for us who knew no sin , that we might be made the Righteousness of God in him ; and that 's another matter , then T.D. makes of it ; who first writes it down the wrong way , and then wrests it to a worse end ; for if it were truely so ( but that Text sayes not that it 's so as T.D. mis-rehearses it ) then to transpose his own words p. 38. as Christ is no sinner by inhaerent defilement but by imputation onely , so his Members must for ever be no Saints by any inherent holiness or purity , but imputation onely ; and as Christ never was the Subject ( inhasionis ) of what we were such Subjects of ( viz. ) sin , lust , filth , envy , hatred , and other works of the flesh , which the Light condemns , but was accursed for them onely , as things done by us and not him , so we m●st never be such Subjects , as he was of the contrary graces and fruits of the Spirit , Love , Ioy , Meekness Temperance , &c. but must onely be saved for them as things done by him , but never from them to all Eternity , but remain ( as he was in all points of misery , cursedness , affliction , infirmity , evil and sorrow , tribulation , temptation , like unto us , transgression and sin onely excepted , Heb. 4.15 . So ) in all points of Mercy , Blessedness , Ioy , Peace , Power , Glory , Rest , good Consolation and Happiness , like unto him , Inherent Grace , Righteeousness and Holiness onely excepted : and so the Body , that is united to that head , must abide absolutely for ever , as filthy as the head it self perfectly holy , which is a doctrine as false as falshood can make it , and a matter not onely Ridiculous and Monstruous to Imagine , but more monstruously Ridiculous , if that meer Imagination should be true . Humano capiti cervicom pictor Equinam Iungere si vellet Risum Teneatis Amici ? And if T. D. ( the summe of whole doctrine from the Scripture is this ; viz. as the Iust once suffered for the unjust , but was never made inhaerently unjust by his injustice , so the unjust are saved for the Iust ones sake , but must never be made inhaerently just by his justice ) shall yet insist upon it as at all inferred from that place , I desire him in order to his satisfaction to the contrary to eye it a little better , as it is in the Greek , and then instead of Arguing thus ( as he falsly does ) that As Christ was made sin , So we are made Righteousness by imputation , not inherence , he may ( as I do ) find good ground from thence to Argue thus ( viz. ) if Christ was made sin , but by imputation onely , not inherence , and we Righteousness , not by imputation onely , but inherence , then not so ●● he was made sin for us , are we made the Righteousness of God in him , but in another manner : But the former is true , therefore the latter . In proof of the former , let it be well weighed , how the Apostle when he sayes , God made him sin for us , uses the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is of a far more shallow and slender signification then that he uses , when he saith that we may be made Righteousness of God in him ( viz. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is a word of a deeper dye ; for howbeit , they both are rendred by this Term ( Made ) in the English Text , yet do found forth two different sorts of makings , whereof the one is not so Real and Substantial as the othe● : for the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though they do signifie a true making sometimes , and may truly be translated fac●o , efficio , and ( passive ) efficior , yet is at most but a making of a more ( as I may so say ) sleightby , external and accidental kind then the other , & sometimes such a one as amounts to no more then a meer accounting or reckoning a matter to be so or so , as it is thereby said to be made : wereupon they are sometimes rendred not onely in many other secondary sense , as by afficio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afficio te malis ) also by causo , pono , propono , Redulo , colloco , sometimes simul , & when one is said to be made a Child an Heir that is not so born , by adupt● but used also sometimes to express existrimo , and to signifie the making of a thing no otherwise then by meer ●ptimation and computa●ion , and so God is said here to make Christ sin for us , who knew and did no sin , in himself ; but the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies such a solid sort of making as gives the thing , not a meer notional and accountative , but a Real and no less then a true natural being so or so , as it is thereby denominated to be made ; for ( if more can be ) its more then sio , factus , sum I am made , even no less then Nascor , gignor , natus , genius , siam , I am so or so bern , so by birth , so by nature , not by some meer external fabrication or function , as a dead painted Picture that hath the shew , shadow and name , and not the life and being of what it represents , much less by meer fiction , imagination , or bare empty computation onely , but by a Real infusion , impartition and conveyance of the nature of the efficient itself into the effect , so that it is according to the measure thereof as ( truly inhaerent ) and Resident in the one as in the other ; as the nature of the Vine in the branches . 'T is to be observ'd that when ever we are said to be made anything truly Really that Christ was , so when ever Christ is said to be made anything , that he , Really was , it is exprest mostly , if not ever by that Verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when the Saints are said to be the Sons of God , though adopted , because they were once degenerated into another seed by Sin , into that favour freely by his gift of grace , yet to be by that same grace , begotten also back again to himself from beneath , and born from above of his spirit , renewing them by a washing of regeneration , John 3.3 . 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , T it 3. 5 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Iohn I. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when Christ is said to be made anything for us , or any thing to us , which he had the reality of for us , and we the Reality of from him respectively , and not the meer account and imputation of it onely , its express by the same Verb or Root , as Iohn I. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The word made flesh and dwells in us , Rom I. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Made of the seed of Abraham , born so , after the fl●●sh ; so Gal. 4. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Gal. 3. 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Made of a Woman , made under the Law , made a curse for us , for he had the Reality of our miseries wo and cursednesse , but the imputation onely of our iniquit●●s , so I Cor. 1. 30. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. He was made unto us of God , Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , Redemption , not accounted so onely , for when he is said to be made sin for us , it s spoken by another Verb , implying that his being made sin , is a kind of making singled off from all the rest , for where he is said be in all points like to us , sin still is expected , Heb. 7. 15. Heb. 2. 14. For as much as the Children were partakes of flesh and blood , he took part of the same and where they were partakers of sin , he took not part with them in that , but only took part of their sorrows , and took on him to be a curse to Redeem them from it , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And thus we are here said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be made ( i.e. ) by a new birth , and not a bare naked account by the Righteousness of God in Christ ; and this is not so ( as T.D. dreams it is ) but far otherwise then so as Christ is said to be made sin which is not ( as T.D. truly says ) by inhaerent defilement or real Participation of the Serpents seed , between which and him there is eternal enmity , nor of that sinful nature & Image , which man was not created in and after , but contracted to himself by the fall , neither took he upon him that of Angels , but he took on him the Seed of Abraham : but we who are of Abrahams Faith , and not of your meer Adamical fancy , are made not computatively onely , but inhaerently Righteous before God in him by a Real Participation of his own Divine nature , so as whilst bodily in the world , to escape the pollution and corruption that 's in the world through lust , whereby , so far as partaking thereof as naturally to seek the things of Gods Kingdom , as ye who as yet are by nature his Children , who hath b●gotten you to himself from God , who made you upright , do take care , by pleading for sins necessary continuance in you here , to uphold the fleshly glory of the Devils Kingdom . So that as to that Ridiculous Retort of T.D. to R.H. his Argument , whereby from the Vnion between Christ and the Saints , who sayes , I in them , and they in me , R.H. concludes that Christ and his Righteousness are in the Saints ; and which T.D. refels foolishly thus , p. 38. T.D. viz. If that Vnion makes us to be the Subjects of what Christ is the Subject , because he is in us , then I hope it will make Christ the Subject of whatever we are because we are in him , and then Christ is a sinner by inhaerent defilement . Rep. I say what ere thou hopest I hope no such matter , and thy self , all whose hopes are yet but vain , wilt hope another matter then thou dost , when thou once comest to hope truly in Christ Iesus : thou hopest it seems at pre●ent , being loath to part with thy sins , that thou hast sufficient Union with Christ to thy Iustification , while thou art the Subject of nothing but sin , and without being the Subject of him within thee or his Righteousness either , or else it must follow that he is a sinner , and the Subject of thy sin , because ( as thou hopest ) thou art in him ; but I tell thee thou hath neither part nor portion in this matter of I in them and they in me to thy Iustification before God , nor ever shalt , till thou witness thy self as really born into , and by a new birth made after his Righteous Image , as thou falsly hopest thou art with God counted Righteous for his sake before thou feel him , and his Righteous Image Revealed , wrought , brought forth and formed in thee : and as for thy inference of sins being in him , because his Saints be in him , drawn from our Asserting his Righteousness to be in his Saints , because he is in them , it s a weak , lam● and decrepid deduction , forasmuch as first his being in them and they in him , can neither of them possibly be any sooner nor any further , then in such time and measure as the Body of the sins of the ●eth is put off , by his circumcision of them to himself without hards , that they may be both ●it to dwell in him , in whom no sinner , while so , hath any inheritance or habitation , and fitted for him to dwell in , being made an holy habitation for him , by his Spirit ; for if any man be in Christ , he is a new creature old things are past away , all things become new ; though ye old creatures , as far as your thoughts can thrust you , and as far as your meer imagining of your selves to be in him , when ye a●e not , can let you in , who will , needs be intruding yourselves into him impudently before your time : And if any man be in Christ Iesus , in whom to them that are in him there is no condemnation , he must be out of the transgressions , to the least of which the condemnation is till it be condemned as well away from , as in his fl●sh , and must walk not after the flesh , but after the Spirit ; and again if Christ the Lord come into any man as his Temple , the sinner cannot abide the day of his comming , nor stand at his appearing , Mal. 3.1.2.3 . But the Refiners fire and the fullers sope passes before him , even the Spirit of judgement , and burning to purge away the drosse and tin throwly and wash away all the flesh and blood , Isa. 4.4 . Yea if ever Christ be in you , the Body is dead because of sin , the spirit is life , because of righteousness ; Rom. 8.1.10 . And assuredly both Christs being in his Saints . and they in him , were neither of them intended of God to that end , that in such wise as they of righteousnesse by him , so he should be the Subject of inherent sin , but both one and t'other to one and the same cleane contrary end , and purpose , ( viz. ) onely , and alone their deliverance in him from the sin in which they could never be just , or any better then abominable in his sight , but not in any that they should be saved from the sin , and he by being in them become the Subject of it in their stead ; that we might be made the righteousnesse of God in him , and not he the Image of Satan forever in our Room : so it s said , 1 Pet. 3.18 . that Christ once suffered for our sins the just for the unjust , not that he might bring us to God only and not bring God to us , nor so as to own and count us holy in our sins , but to bring us to be Gods children by Nature and Image and not to bring us to be so thought , and yet le● us like the Devill , much lesse to make himselfe by sin like the Devil ; and that this is the onely end , it s said , for what the Law could not do in regard it was weak● through our flesh , God sending his own Son in the likenesse of sinfull flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in our● fl●sh , that the righteousnesse of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh ( as all sinners and no Saints do ) but after the Spirit , Rom. 8.3.4 . which is one ( viz. ) the 3d of the 4 Scriptures above named , I am under the examination of T. D's . Admirable answers too , which that I may rid my hands on 't while t is in hand , and not need to take it in hand any more , and also , because his answer to it suits so well with what I am here saying , not mattering so much order , as to tarry till its turn comes , I shall take notice of his answer to it , and by a briefe Reply , take it out of the way ; as I go : Having ●aid no other of the 3d verse then I myself do , he grants that the 4 verse imports the end , for which God sent Christ ( viz. ) that the righteousnesse of the Law might be fulfilled ( in us ) so far he is right and runs with me , but then he speedily spoils all again , adding that by that Term ( in us ) is meant not in our own persons , but in Christ , his righteousnesse imputed to us , as if it had been inherent in our selves : which I told him then when he uttered it ( as he relates ) p. 17.18 . was his own meaning , but not Pauls , to which his yes started up against my no , and so it ended for that time . But a word or two with thee T.D. about it now : Is the sense and meaning of that Term ( in us ) ( not in us ) but ( in another ) not ( in our persons ) but ( in Christ ? ) . I never heard so much in all my dayes , that I know of , till I had it from thee , and if thou hadst not told me so , I should never have believed it , to have been so , any more then I can believe it now thou dost tell me it is so , and that is ( to say the truth ) not at all ; for if this be so , that when the spirit of God sayes ( in us ) we must understand him as intending ( not in us ) but ( in some other ) I can't tell where we shall have him , nor how to understand him distinctly more then one can understand thee , who oft speakst on thing and thinkst another , and hast so many meanings for one Scripture somtimes , that thou know it not which to take for true , nor which of them all to fix upon as the Spirits , but hangst thy people up in the aire , there to hover with thy self in the Clouds of darknesse , till neither thou nor they know well , either where ye are , or what ye say , nor whereof ye affirm . But surely T. D. though thou thinkst ( as all takers of Gods Covenant into their mouths , that hate to bereformed and cast his words behind them do ) that God is such a one as thy selfe , Psal. 50. and goest about to make thy more talkt on , then well known unity in Trinity , a Trinity of vain talkers , and meer mockers of men like thy self , saying one thing & meaning oft another ( viz. ) that God offers salvation to all men but intends it onely to a few , or at least ( by thy own confession ) offers it to more then he intends it , though I believe thy words were as R.H. rehearses p. 40. and that twast an usuall thing with Christ to speak words of a doubtfull sense : So that his meaning may be mistaken ( by none but illiterate Anti-Spiritists say I ) when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literall sense by ( every man ) not meaning ( every individuall ) but ( a very few ) and by ( all ) but ( some ) and that the meaning of the Spirits words Joh. 9. cannot be as the letter of them doth import [ ut prius ] p. 6.7 . and so here that by [ in us ] they all three mean not [ in our persons ] but [ in Christ ] and a deal more of such Hoberdipoise ; but let the Father , Word , and Spirit , which are one , be true in their witnesse in heaven and every man a lyar , that belyes them as thou doest , for there is no such matter , as thou intimately of them , but the wayes and words of wisdome are all plain to him that understandeth pro. 8. and dark to none but the Children of darknesse and parables to none , but such as seeing see not , therefore must not see the mysteries of the Gospell , which are revealed to Babes , nor his secrets which are hid to none but such as fear not him , whose secrets are with those that fear him ; Blind Priests and people hate the light , Therefore of truth can have no sight . Else how easily might they see that God , Christ and the Spirit , mean as they say , and do not mean by [ all ] [ but a few ] nor by [ in ] [ out ] nor here by [ in us ] [ in another ] or [ not in us ] and if this may passe for a current answer to say , God by [ yea ] means not [ yea ] but [ nay ] which he that hath his fingers in the fire , and will not pull them out at the hearing of , 't is almost pitty but he should be burnt . This is an easier way to put off truth by , then the common Creephole of all the Clergy , when they are cronded up into a Corner [ viz. ] in aliquo sensu ita est , in alie sensu non in one sense 't is so in another not , which may serve not T.D. onely , who hath more senses to one Scripture then every one hath , or he should have , though not enough to serve his turn , but also the veriest Duncicall Disputant in the World. Yea at this rates when Paul tells us that if Christ be not in us , we are Reprobates , and 't is Christ in us , onely who is the hope of glory ; if I were minded not to admit of such a troublesome guest in my heart ; as Christ is to all such sinner-like Saints , as T. D's . Saints are , I could easily turn him out into the Stable , as they did of old that could afford him no Room at all in the Iune and excuse my selfe in it well enough too , by telling him in T. D's . distinction , that by [ in us ] Paul means not ( in us ) but [ in Christ ] and so tell Christ he is ( in us ) enough to our justification ; if he be but in himself . And as this last sense or senselesse meaning of T.D. who sayes by ( in us ) is meant ( not in us ) but ( in another ) as also that the righteousnesse that is in another i.e. Christ , is in a sense too ( as good as ●on-sense ) i.e. by imputation , Ours and ( in us ) ( for that which is fulfilled not in our persons but in Christ is according to T.D. in that Scripture Rom. 8. Said to be fulfil'd ( in us ) as if it had been inherent in selves ) . I say as that distinction of T.D. concerning ( in us ) not meant ( in our persons ) but ( in Christ ) and by ( in Christ ) when fulfilling the righteousnesse of the Law is spoken of , Ministers Latitude and liberty enough to our Ministers , whereby to fence of and save themselves from truth , so it lends Liberty and license more then enough to their Priestlike people , to save themselves in their sins ; for what will many care what they do themselves , if the Law be not to be fulfil'd in themselves by Christ ; but 't is enough in themselves fulfil'd to their justification if in Christ for them , and as well as if it were inhaerent in them : So though the Priests oft preach thus viz. he that made us without our selves will not save us without our selves , yet fith they to the contradiction of themselves as oft unpreach it again , saying he that made us without our selves , will save us without our selves by anothers fulfilling the Law not in us but in himselfe for us , their people will quickly cry . hang sorrow and care and of their two selfe confusing doctrines cleave to that , that 's next to them , easiest and most fitting their turns , and fall a preaching presently in their works the pleasing things their Priests , who do docere faciendo faciendo , do preach both in words and deeds he that made us will save us , and shew us mercy without any goodnesse of our own . If ( in another ) ( in us ) be and ( in us ) ( in another ) Wee 'l ne'er be good , good deemd are we in this , in that , ith rather . So having wiped out by the way , that blot or blurr'd answer of T.D. to my Argument from Rom. 8.3.4 . Seeing his answer to what we urge from Rom. 8.2 . ( The 2d of the 4 Scriptures above said ) is as neer in kind to it for fillynesse , as that 2d verse from whence we argue is neer in truth to the 3d and 4. He here make as short a dispatch and round a Reply to that too , now I am about it : Arg. The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free f●om the Law of sin and death ( saith Paul ) and ( say we ) the Law of the Spirit that is in Christ and in the Saints whereby , the Saints are justified , is the same therefore the work of the Spirit of Christ in us is the cause of our justification . That place quoth T. D's p. 16. ( but I trow not ) is much against you for the Apostle asserts the holiness of mans nature as a work of the Spirit conforming it to the Law to be the meritorious case of our freedome from sin and death . Rep. Thus far is son , and not against us , I am well assured , for 't is no lesse then the very Cardinall truth we plead for against T.D. that the holynesse of our nature as a work of the Spirit conforming it to the Law , is the deserving cause of justification , for conformity to the Law cannot deserve condemnation but non-condemnation and so ( which is all one ) justification : and if this be not enough on our side , T.D. adds more ; let me add ( quoth he ) p. 17. that the Law of the Spirit of life here spoken of , is not onely the meritorious cause of our freedom from death , but from the Law of sin or obeying sin as a Law : In all this I own T.D. whose Answer to my Argument is thus far as answerable , that is , as yeilding to it as I do desire . But then T.D. whose manner it is often to give a thing , and take a thing ( which is the Devils gold Ring , as I have heard Children say when I was a Child ) doth not in all this give the cause to us so much , but he thinks he gets it and carryes it away from us again , as much in other parts and particulars of that his parti — coloured answer : But I hope we shall fetch it all again , and no thank to him for his gifts and grants , sith what he gives he would have it all again if he could tell how , and he thinks he plucks much from us again , 1st by saying thus ( viz. ) mark withall ( quoth he ) though I grant you the holynesse of mans nature as a work of the Spirit conforming it to the Law , is the meritorious cause of our freedom from sin and death yet 't is not that which is ( in us ) but ( in Christ ) the Law of the Spirit , and so the holynesse of mans nature I and Paul 〈◊〉 of , is that ( in Christ ) and not that ( in our persons . ) R. To which I Reply thus . 1. What if I should answer T.D. that by ( in Christ ) is not meant ( in Christs person ) but ( in us ) 〈◊〉 eb●tl●● ●●lionis to serve him in his own kind , for when we say with P●●●● 〈◊〉 , 4 that the righteousnesse of the Law is by Christ condemning sin in ou● 〈◊〉 to be fulfilled ( in us ) he answers us thus that by that Term ( in us ) is not meant ( in our persons ) but ( in Christ ) I might as well say retro that by ( in Christ ) is not meant ( in Christs person ) but ( in us ) adbomi●●m it holds well enough till T.D. recants his own odde distinction of the same kind : But as it s as unfound in itselfe as his is , so T.D. is not yet come to bear it to be done to by us , as he does to us , and therefore I must sit him to a better answer . 2. Then I Reply that thought the Law of the Spirit of life be in Christ , yet not onely in him , or exclusively of its being in the Saints , but so as that from him and from his being in them it consequently , and upon that account is in them also , for Christ is not in any , as their Righteousnesse , in whom his Righteousnesse and the Spirit of life , that is in him , is not together with him also ; yea though it will not follow as thou fainest from the Saints being in Christ , who were once sinners to their sins being in Christ together with them ( so the reasons above said , where I told thee that men must leave their sins behind them and be by Christ divested of them before they can come indeed to be in Christ , to whom no sinners ( while sinners ) are or can be united ( unlesse thou wilt contradict Paul who faith what Concord between Christ and Belial ) yet if Christ be in Saints , who leaves nothing of his own behind him where ere he comes , his righteousnesse , holynesse , and spirit of life , is in them also . But no more of this T. D. confesses it p. 17. ' t is true ( quoth he ) that the same Spirit is in Christ and in his Saints , but then he hath a double bolt for all this wherewith to shut us out from justification by that Spirit , in Christ as in us . 1. The Spirit in us doth not conform us to the Law fully ( quoth he ) notwitstanding your vain assertion of perfection . Rep. I never said that the Spirit of Christ in you did conform you fully to the Law , if when thou sayst ( conform us ) thou meanst your selves ; for ye are farenough from perfection , to whom it seemes A vain●assertion , A Doctrine of Devils , to talk of or reach it , and how should the Spirit conform you to the Law , who though you have it striving in you and reproving you of sin , yet do in the stiffnesse and uncircumcis'dnesse of your hearts and eares alwayes quench , grieve , resist it , refuse to be led by it and will not walk after it ; but after the flesh ? But the Saints ( and such onely are all those that walk after it , and not after the flesh ) it eitheir conforms them to the Law , and that fully too , or else what doth it conform them to ? Partly the Law and partly the Lust ? Partly to it selfe , and partly to the flesh ? Doth it lead any into any sin , which is transgression of the Law ? Or onely out of all sin all such as give up to be guided by it ? If any be at all deform'd , it is because they conform to the flesh , and follow it , and stop the Spirit ; but if any conform to the Spirit , and follow it , it will conform them fully to the Law , and not to the forms , fashions , foolish fellowships and lusts of the world , but transform them from all these by the renewing of their minds , and lead them to perfect holynesse in the fear of God , thy vain assertion to the contrary in any wise norwithstanding . Thus the 1 st . bolt is broken , but 2ly ( quoth he ) if the Spirit did conform us to the Law fully , yet were not that conformity the merit of justification . Rep. Oh strange ! that T.D. should deem there 's strength in this to stand out against us by , which is far weaker then the former : Doth the Spirit working holinesse in our natures and persons , not merit justification , which is non-condemnation ? are Christ and his Spirits works of lesse or worse merit in one time place and person then another ? I judg'd they had been every where , and alwayes alike , and of like good desert from the dignity of the person doing them ( or else T.D. lyes p. 15. of his 1. Pamp ) and especially that their good works , which are the fulfilling of the Law deserve non-condemnation ( 1 ) justification ( or else T.D. lyes again in that same page ) but sith the Spirit of life , and works of holinesse in our nature and persons conforming them fully to the Law do not ( as T.D. p. 15. said before they did from the dignity of Christs person ) deserve non-condemnation ( for their conformity to , it , or transgression of it merits one thing or other , good or evill ; and we use to say no truly good work deserves evill , more then an evill work merits good ) we will take it for granted that T.D. thinks the Spirits conforming us to the Law deserves condemnation , and so let it stand that all people may understand the Blasphemy and Folly of it . Thus T.D. pulls hard to have his own again , but what he can't win by force of false position , hee l see if he can beg it back from us in these following fawning Questions . I would fain know what or whether precedent holynesse in the Saints merits subsequent holynesse ; or whether the exercise of what they have , is the meritorious cause of what they have not or of perfection , especially , if the Law of sin intends the corruption of nature , as the Law of the spirit of the life does holynesse of nature , I would be instructed how a nature in part corrupted can deserve totall freedome , and I am sure the first work of the Spirit renewes our nature but in part . Rep. If I should grant T.D. in the negative all he asks , as he thinks I will my negative or denying or saying N● were such answer to his Questions as he desires ; but if I should say yea to all his Que●yes , it dashes him down , and denyes all he would have ; and yet I must say yea to most of them if I say the truth . Therefore T.D. I say yea to some and nay to some : To the 1st I answer yea , that precedent holynesse in the Saints , merits subsequent holynesse and to the ad I answer yea , the exercise of what the Saints have is a meritorious cause of what yet they have not : And sith thou askest what precedent holynesse the Saints exercising of when they have it , deserves subsequent holynesse , or what they have not ? I answer all that is the fruit of the Spirit in them , and the gift of God to them , whether Active or Passive , ( if to merit be to be worthy of a thing by right of promise at least . ) 'T was given to the Saints , both to believe and suffer Phil. 1. Yet they were worthy of the Kingdome for which they suffered by beleiving the Testimony of it , and suffering for it , 2 Thess. 2. 'T was the gift of God by promise to such as fight and ouercome to walk with Christ in white , and the gift of God to the Saints , that they could sight , and by his strength overcome , yet they shall walk with me in white faith Christ , for they are worthy . 'T was Gods gift to do his Commandements , yet for all that the doing thereof deserves that they yet have not , and without the doing of which they should not enter by Right , gives right to enter the Citty and eat of the Tree of life , Rev. 22.14 . Five Talents , and two , and one were Gods gift , yet as he that did not encrease and improve what he had merited at least the losse of it , so they that exercised the 2 and the 5 merited the doubling of theirs and by promise had Right , using what they had , and being faithfull in few littles , to many , and to more abundance and to the joy of the Lord : Much more I might say , but T.D. denyes in this the Doctrine of his fellow Divines , who tell that the improvement of 〈◊〉 grace ( as they call it ) deserves not the gift of speciall , but the improvement of special grace deserves more of that still : So that though they deny a meritorious transition a genere ad genus , from exercising of one kind of grace ( say they ) men deserve not another kind , as he that improves riches deserves not righteousnesse : Yet a desert ( say they ) there is , by the exercise of some grace of one kind , of more of the same kind , as he that is holy deserves more holynesse and he that sowes to the Spirit of life , shall have life everlasting , as he that sowes to the flesh reaps a crop ( as all persons are to do suitable to their seed ) of more corruption : And if purchase may be granted to be meritorious of what is purchased , he that useth a lower ministration ( 1 ) the Office of a Deacon well , purchaseth to himself ( saith Paul,1 Tim. 3 . ) A good degree and great boldness in the faith in Christ Iesus , and he that will entertain holynesse , and Christ when he knocks to come in , deserves to have the Devill and uncleannesse driven out by him , whose work it is to destroy the works of the Devill , and the very end of his comming into the World ; as till a man does , he deserves the Devill should dwell in him still , as he must do , and not Christ , because 〈◊〉 existens proh betalienum . And as to the last Query about which T.D. would be instructed ( as I see he had need ) I say no corrupt nature deserves totall freedom , but the holy nature , which is in bondage to the corrupt nature ( which is the enmity , and to be slain , and never reconciled , for it is the Devills ) that deserves to be freed from the other , that usurps over it , as Esau did over Iacob a while , the heir of all , and as the seed of the woman deserves to be delivered from the enslaving seed of the Serpent . And as for the Spirits renewing our nature but in part at 〈◊〉 that 's true but every part of that renewed nature is perfect and perfectly renewed in a measure , and not partly renewed and partly corrupted as I shewed T.D. above , every part of that , which in its nature is perfect , being truly perfect as the whole is . So having totally taken away two of T. D's . miserable mistaking answers to two of the 4 above named Scriptures , whence we disputed with him , the justification of Saints by the gracious works of Christ , and his Spirit in them , and not those in Christs Person onely , it matters not much , now I am gone abroad from following the first I began upon fully to an end , if I fall upon that in Tit. 3.7 . and make as quick a Riddance of his gracelesse answer to that , and th●n I shall have no more to do but go to an end with that in I Cor. 6.11 . which I am a little digres't from proceeding in for a while , and with that I shall make an end for altogether as to this time with T.D. about the way of our justification by the holynesse , righteouscesse , and grace of Christ as inhaerent in us . Our Argument is much what the same , yet somwhat stronger then T.D. relates it p. 24. ( viz. ) that the grace of eternall life , being that grace which ver . 5. ( though oppos'd to the works of righteousnesse , which we work of ourselves without the Spirit ) yet is the same that 's otherwise call'd washing of regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit , it follows that we are justified by the washing of Regeneration and Spirit of Christ within renewing us . To this T. D. saying ( in word ) I am much mistaken ( in deed ) mistakes himselfe much more in his semi-demi answering thus ( viz. ) that grace there is meant not of Sanctification , but of the savour of God , which is manifest in the donation of his Son to us , imputation of his Righteousnesse and acceptance of us , as Righteous in him . Rep. What a messe of gracelesse grace is here of T. D's making , here 's grace with a witnesse , almost all manner of grace mentioned as materiall , and of moment in the matter of justification , but one , which is of so much use that all the rest are in a manner uselesse till it come in , and which makes all the rest grace so that ( to say no more then then truth ) they are no grace to us before it or without it ; and that ( viz. ) Sanctification while others are included , is onely and alone excluded : Poor Sanctification , it s set aside , it s thrust out still from entring the lines of Communication among its fellows . T. D. stands against the dore so that , if he may Rule the Rost , men shall be in favour with God and ( contrary to what Divines commonly say , when they say , as they do all , that Sanctification manifests Iustification and the favour of God ) have it manifested too , in the donation of his Son to them , the imputation of his righteousnesse and acceptance of them as righteous in him , and so consequently , a Title to the inheritance , the Kingdome , Glory , and all the good that heaven affords to all eternity ; but washing Regeneration , Sanctification , Renovation by the Spirit , Sanctification and Sa●vation from the sins , which sins deserve the wrath , the curse and the condemnation , which Salvation from the sins ( alias ) Sanctification must be before any well grounded hope of escaping the codemnation , curse and wrath to come can be had , this latter sort of grace is shut out for a wrangler by the wrangling contenders against the truth , who had rather obey unrighteousnesse then it , and their lusts then him , they call their Lord and Saviour , and must be none of the ingredients among the company of causes of mens acceptance with God , and being accounted Righeous by him , but if they be not Righteous and Holy , must be counted to be so , without it , and , if they be so , must be counted so by that which resides in another person , by which till it come into themselves , they are not made so , and without it , by the being of which , as in themselves and not as in another , they can onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be truly made and really become Righteous and Holy : and so that grace , which mainly , if not onely ( as it is a gift ) gives the proper name and nature of grace to all the other grace , may say of it self , cum nemo extru di potest itur ad me , when none ought to be excluded as not meant , where every grace God is mentioned in the Gospell , I onely am left out alone , and they seek my life also . But Go too T.D. thou must not have thy wicked will in this wise against Gods , about this thy so bold a bolting out of this grace of Sanctificatin from concomitating and concurring together with faith ( which is but a part of it , the whole Series of the particular graces of which generall grace of Sanctification are all fruits of the Spirit ) in the matter of our being counted just in the sight of God : But as blindly buisy as thou art to tell us in a far other sense then Paul does , that if it be of grace then not of works and if of works , not of grace , yet I must tell thee that albeit it be of grace , and , as Paul sayes truly , Rom. 11. and in this 3. Tit. 5. not of works of Righteousnesse which we work in our own wills , wisdom , and strength in obedience to the Law , without Christ and the Spirit , who onely can conform us to it , and fulfill it in us , otherwise grace indeed is no more grace , but it being of grace , that kind of work is no more work . Yet it is not so of grace as that the fruits of the Spirit , Sanctification , Washing , Renewing , and the works of Christ in us are excluded , otherwise Christs own works ( absit blasphemia ) are no more works , and of no such force and worth ( as thou blushest not to blaspheme so as to say they are not p. 17. ) as to merit justification . Yea so necessarily is it of such good works as are wrought in us by Christ , that otherwise grace it selfe were no more grace ; for what grace is that of being so or so , so long as we are not in truth so as we are accounted ? to be accounted justified , accounted accepted with God , and accounted his Children , heirs of his Kingdom , Righteous , Holy , saved from our sins ( which whiles they abide the wrath of God abides , and condemnation , and cursing hangs over the head of the Subjects thereof ) and yet not really to be so , as none are , and as ( nemine contradicente ) without all contradiction none can know themselves to be , till Sanctification , which is the evidence for heaven , and that which to us and all men shewes our Title to all the foresaid Priviledges and Prerogatives , doth appeare upon us : I say , what grace is all this ? What Salvation from sin whiles sin remaines ? What Redemption from the and curse the effects of sin while sin the cause thereof rests on us unremoved ? all this faith of the favour of God is but fiction this hope of heaven , but vain , groundlesse , heartlesse , and frustraneous , this divination of T.D. a meer dream of a hungry thirsty man , that dreames he eats and drinks , but as it s said before , his soul is empty , and when he awakes , behold its another matter : Oh but ( quoth T.D. the Spirit of God the 3d person in the Trinity , he does apply the righteousnesse of Christ to us to our justification and so we are justified perhaps ( say you Qua. what you will ) and not upon account of Sanctification of us , by his work grace of in our hearts and so that phrase justified by the Spirit , which ye insist so much on , 1 Con. 6.11 . may be meant of the Spirits application . Rep. Mark Reader ( for having run throw the other 3. I return now to the 1st . of the 4. Scriptures that we urged from , and T.D. answers so lamely to ) T.D. sayes perhapse it s meant of the Spirits application to which I say , 't were better for T. D's . cause if it might be so meant , but for one reason I shall shew , it may not , must not , cannot , unlesse T.D. means a nigher kind of Application , then I am sure he does , for if by justified by the Spirit be there meant of the Spirits outward Application onely or imputation of Christs Righteousnesse without us to our justifying before God , then the work of the Spirits washing and sanctifying us also must be meant of the Spirits outwa●d Application only and meer imputation of the cleannesse and holinesse of Christ to us for our washing and Sanctification , for Paul sayes the same of them , they all hang on one string and must run the same way and be taken in the same sense relating all to that one Author thereof the Spir●● : Such ( viz. ) Drunkards , Effeminate , Adulterers , &c. Were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified by the Spirit of our God : so if one ( 1 ) justification be by externall application onely , then the other ( viz. ) our washing and sanctifying is but by such an empty application , and outward Imagina●y account and imputation onely and not by the inward Holy operations of the Spirit . And indeed all your grace is one part of it as well as another by such outward Application , and meer Computation onely , and not by any true Real internal Application of Christs Righteousness , sufferings , and blood to your Souls and Consciences , to the purging of them from dead works to the true serving of the living God , your Iustification is by imputation and outward Application , your Washings , Regenerations , Sanctifications , Holinesses , Renovations , and all ye have is by such a meer Imputation and Application of what is far off you in Christs person to your selves , so that what ever he is in whom is no sin , you will deem and dream that God deems you so to be , upon nothing but a meer blind confidence and conceit , that swimmes in your brain that 't is so , when 't is no such thing , God knows : and so as one , that being at the North of Scotland hungry and naked , should in his thoughts onely apply a garment or a mess of meat to himself , that 's as far off him as the South of England , must needs perish for want on 't , if it be brought and applyed no neerer to him , then so ; so you in all your Applications of Christ , and what ever is in him , who is as far off as Heaven , whil'st you are but on earth , far enough from thence , the Lord knows , must necessarily faint , famish , perish , pine and starve , till ye come to witness Christ and the Robes of his Righteousness and Holiness within your selves , and eat his flesh , and drink his blood , and put him on a little more effectually then ye do , by all your dead faith , and your eatings and drinkings of bread and wine , for all your imagined Spirits , applyings and imputings , by which , that the whole world , which d●th already , may and you together with it lye still in wickedness , ye are ever dispelling and disputing all true inherent h●liness out of door● : And so being but in a meer Aery talk , and vain thought of things , that ye are in them when ye are out of them , and not doers your selves of what ye hear Christ hath done for you before , as an ensample , that ye should by his Power in the leadings of his Light and Spirit do the same , ye do , but deceive your own Souls : and , as both Paul and Iames , who both agree and we with them against you in this , do truly tell you , as Righteous and Religi●us as ye seem to be to your selves and each to other , all your Religion is but va●n , and your hopes that ye are this and that in the account of God , that ye are Iust and Pure , when really ye are nothing so , will prove abortive , and as that of the hypocrite , when the Lord takes away his Soul , no other then the giving up the Ghost : for Gal. 6.3,4 . if any man think himself to be something , and that he is thought of God , for that holiness which is in another without him , to be something when he is nothing , and witnesseth neither that other , nor his holiness within himself , he deceiveth himself : but let every man prove his own work , and what he doth by the Spirit of Christ within himself of the Will of God , and then shall he have Rejoycing with in himself alone or at least als● , and not in another Person without him onely , and he that glorieth , will gl●●y in the Lord , Christ in him the hope of glory , in the Lord in himself , in whom the Seed of Israel finds Righteousnesse and strength , and Salvation from the sin , is Iustified and shall glory , I a. 45. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. or not every one that commendeth himself as Iustified by Christ , will appear approved at last , but he whom the Lord commendeth , which is no man of sin that I know of , which David himself stood condemed in , 2 Cor. 10 , 17 , 18. So having snaptasunder one of the two strings to his Bow by which T. D. strove to shoot back to us that Arrow and Shast , which was sharp in his , and in the heart of all the enemies to justification by the Spirit of grace and life within us , from 1 Cor. 6.11 . which pretended to no great strength it self , being a string made but of a meer may be , or perhaps for justified by the Spirit ( if not otherwise ) may be meant ( quoth he ) of the Spirits Application ; I come to try the strength of his other string , which is patcht up of no better then such a poor peice of Toe too , as peradventure or perhaps ; for when we say with Paul in the Text the Saints are washed , sanctified and justified all one and the same way ( viz. ) in the name of the Lord Iesus and by the Spirit of God and his grace and holy operations in us , T. D. who confesses he chose to out-word us ( see his Epistle ) and is never to seek for something or other to say , though his aliquid is ever nihil , sayes thus . I might say that perhaps the clause should be referr'd to Sanctification , which is in a more appropriate manner attributed to the Spirits efficiency , as if the Order of the words had been but ye are sanctifyed by the Spirit of our God. Rep. Then it seemes justification must go look its efficient somewhere else and must have no share with washing and sanctification in the Spirits holy workings in the Saints : it must be in the Name of God only , and the other onely by the Spirit , as if the Name and Spirit of God were such Heterogeneous matters , that what 's done by one cant be said to be done by the other , and as if Paul had mistooke himself in the placing of his words , and had been by the infallible Spirit misguided , misplacing of them so , that when he should have said ye are justified onely in the Name of the Lord , and onely wash't and sanctified by the Spirit of God , confusedly crouds these effects all under one cause , and sayes ye are not onely washt and sanctified but ye are justified also in the name of the Lord , and by the Spirit of our God. I do not wonder thou purst in this with perhaps only , for hadst thou absolutely affirmed it for a positive truth , thou hadst of a truth lyed thy self into a very laughing stock to the lowest capacity in the Country , by thy talk of so transcendently untrue a transposition . T. D. But such traspositions are not without instance in the Scripture ( quoth T.D. ) as Math. 7.6 . give not that which is holy to Dogs nor cast ye your Pearls before Swine least they trample them under their feet , and turn again and rent , where turn again and rent you is joyned to the Dogs ( quoth he ) for as Swine ds trample under their feet , so Dogs do fly upon a man and tear him down . Rep. We know well enough its the property of Dogs and I Swine to turn and tea● , and ●rample , when Pearls and holy things are held out to them , having paid pretty well for the experimentall learning of it we have , since we began to tell the pretious Truth , and hold out such a holy thing as inhaerent holynesse is , to such an unholy seed as your selves are ● but I am y●t to learn that these these ill qualities of turning , tearing , trampling , do not all 3. jointly agree to both or either of these Creatures , severally considered , yea all of them as much to one as to the other : For as Dogs turn and tear , so do Swine , and as Swine trample under their feet what th●y tear , so do Dogs , or else the Scripture , which is very unlike to T. D's . Scripture about it , is in this case utterly unlike it self ; for it tells us of the Gentiles , which in oppsition to the children are called the Dogs Math. 15.24 . which are without the holy Citty , or any Right to enter there Rev. 22.14.15 . ( Though in their anger & envy canina utentes facundia they grin like a Dog and go round about it , Psal. to whom yet the outward Court of the Temple externall forms , worships , observations , ordinances and name of Christians is given ) that they tread or trample the holy Citty under feet , Rev. 11.1.2 . No marveil therefore the Cat winkt when both her eyes were out , and that T.D. durst not speak his mind out positively , nor point blank neither one way nor another , in answer to our Argument from that Scripture , 1 Cor. 6.11 . but only by perha●●es ; Seeing he was so blinded by it that he saw nothing what to return directly and downrightly to it : and since he puts it off to us with no more force then perhaps it is so , or perhaps so , as he sayes 't is , though I have said much more for satisfactions sake to such as seek the truth , yet to such as seek nothing more then how they may cavill against it , and turn it off from taking hold on either their own hearts or the hearts of others , I need do no more then put it all back upon T. D. again with per-haps it is so or so ; as I say 't is against him , it being a generall generall received Maxime among all Schoolmen that an argument , that flyes in ones face with no more force then forte ita , requires to be no more forcibly refel'd then with forte non . Yea forte ita semper sat bene solvitur per forte non . Thus I have at last made a clear end with T. D. as to this matter of justification , having to the undeceiving of such as by his misty makings out of our meanings in it , have much mistaken me and the Qua. as Po●ish about it , shewed plainly which way we hold it , and how it is , according to the Scripture , of grace and not of works ( 1 ) our works properly and onely so call'd , and yet not of grace onely but of works also ( 1 ) such as Christ and his Spirit only works only in us : which the Spirit in a sense subordinate to himself , who is the master-workman , to whom onely and Gods grace in freely giving us such an alsufficicent Assistant to do his will the glory of all belongeth is pleas'd , also , but more sparingly , to entitle by the the Term of Ours Isa. 26. So that had it been as true , as [ if T.D. and his witnesses together with him , p. 58. be to be credited before himself alone ] 't is false that I disputed justification in those Terms of ( by our good works ) as he says p. 14. yet if by our works we speak of those that God , Christ and the Spirit work in us , it can in no wise follow from thence , any more , then it doth from all his other pite●●s Premises whereby he improves himself to prove me so , that I am a rank Papist , nor so much as it followes from the remaining of so many Relikes of the Romish Who●e among our English Clergy that they are still living in and loving the Skirts of that , great Whores Sco●tations . Indeed to say as T.D. doth of S.F. He hath been at Rome , * He had great Bills of Exchange from Constantinople thither [a] He witnest against the Pope and Cardinal there yet was not medled with , [b] He saith he is above Ordinances , [c] He saith Iesuits and Friars are [d] sounder in doctrine then those call'd the Reformed Churches , He made light on 't when he was charg'd with Popery before 100ds of pe●ple , [e] He affirm'd justification by our good works , [f] and such as doctrines are a fair inlet to the Papists Bag and Baggage ; [g] therefore probably he complyes with the Pope and Cardinals , hath a Pension from him , and is manifestly a rank Papist , These 7 or 8 piball'd Magpie premises and Humb●● Bee propositions , whereof some are true and some false , may like so many Roaring Megs , and Thundring Canons , make such a hideous Rumbling noyse in a Country Church ( as they use to say ) as to frighten poor Folck out of their senses , and force all Priest-bewitcht people whether they will or no into the faith of what followes at their heels , as the conclusion they serve to usher in ( viz ) that S.F. is a fer-vent Factor for the Sea of Rome . Neverthelesse * there is no more Consequence in them , though less Truth , then if a man should argue thus , where the Antecedent and Subsequent are both true , though the one very untruly deduced from the other viz. The Wheelbarrow runs Rumble to Rumble : Therefore the Clergy will never leave climbing up by lyes , till down they Tumble . The Second Apologetical , and Expostulatory Exercitation . CHAP. I. NOw I Return again to thee Iohn Owen , whom ( excepting here and there with a word or two as occasion was ) I have not visited of a long time , being by T. D. his interposings in this Question about Iustification , which is excentrick from all the points in which thou encountrest the Quakers , so totally taken off for many pages together from any steady discourse , or any but meer cursory conference with thee , that some men , who measure others by themselves and take an account of the Quakers conjunctions with them in contending for truth , by the cowardly spirits they carry in their own brests , may Term it little lesse then shameful or total Tergiversation in me to tarry so long from thee , and not so much as face thee all this while . And now I am come to deal with thee , I shall freely allow thee the advantage of the utmost assistance that T.Ds. Book against the Quakers , and that of I. T. or R. B. also affords thee to help thee ( if need be ) at any dead list , where thou art a stand in the Doctrines about which I have to do with thee , which though some are more eminently to be canvased between us two then the rest , which are but transiently toucht on by thee , yet are no less then the five aforesaid , viz. 1. The Letter . 2. The Light. 3. The Infallible Spirits present infallible guidance . 4. The Universality or particularity of the grace of God to the Sons of men . 5. Perfection of holinesse , and cleansing from sin in this life . In all which five ( whether in the selfe same order as they are here laid down in or no , I cannot say , nor is it much matter for that ) as I am first or last to speak on , or to joyne issue in against thee , So more or lesse T.D. falls in and joyns issue with thee in them against the Quakers , so directly that I see not how I can meddle with one and let the other wholly alone , but must unavoidably hold an entercourse briefly or largely ( as occasion happens ) either simul or successivè with you both , and with I. Tombes and R. Baxt. also , who whether they meddle in their last book with them all or not , so as to prosecute them , yet intimate themselves both in that and other of their labours to be of the same minde with you , as also most of the Divines , so called , are throughout this Nation . Now concerning these which are the grand Subjects , in reference to which all that is said of any of them by either of us , in our Disputation about them , is but the Praedicate ; so contrary are we ( as the Case yet stands between Thy self , and me ) to each other in our Assertions , that very much , if not most of that which is denominated of them respectively by either of us , is as absolutely gain-said by the other ; So as whatsoever is ( as most that thou sayest at all of it is ) falsly Affirmed by thee of the Scripture ( the Subject which , in a shallow sound of words , thou seem'st to stand for , but art seen in truth to stand against ) is utterly denyed by me ; and most of that which is most truly Asserted by me , and the Quakers of the Light , and all the rest of fore-named Doctrines , is as positively denyed by thy self , though in thy denying thereof , thou dost not more evidently contradict both the Truth and us , then thy silly self , who art yet so sensless as not to see it . What Testimony it is that we bear of the grace of God , the Spirits guidance , Perfection , and true Light ( the Subjects which we plead for , and thou impleadest ) will be seen when I come in all plainness to give it out , with the good grounds thereof , as at last I shall ( God willing ) howbeit not till toward the last , for as much as in the last place thy false witnesse comes out against it ; and in the mean while betake my self to the intended Tryal of those things which are ( as blindly , as boldly ) bolted out by thee about the Scriptures ; and to declare wherein we do , and wherein we do not , and also why it is ( where-ever we do not ) that we neither do , nor may , nor can accord at all with thee about the Scripture , for not Assenting to whose meer fancies about which , as infallible and undoubted Truths , ( having hung up thy Flag of Defiance against Atheists , Anti-scriptural Iewes , and Papists , and sought up thy foolish fight also with sundry of thy fellow Protestant Divines , for not dancing after thy unharmonious Pipe , nor singing to the same Truthlesse tune with thee about the Scriptures ) Thou beatest up the Quarters of the Quakers , and unjustly Quarrel●st against them , slandering them ( as fowlely , as falsly ) in a long Latine Piece of Scholastical scrible , as slanderers of the Scripture ; whom yet thou neither dost , nor canst evince to be such , unless that be to slander the Scripture to say no more of it then matter of truth . Now for as much as my Businesse with I. O. principally , and in part also , with T.D. ( as to the Scriptures ) will lie mainly these two wayes , viz. First to clear the Quakers from those clouds of ignominy , wherewith they ( as all their fellow Clergy-men commonly do ) seek to cover them by their lyes of them , as a people that deserve to be held accursed among all for their enmity to the Scripture . Secondly to recover both Priests and people ( as much as may be ) from under those dark , cloudy conceptions of the Scripture , which these two men being overcast with themselves , labour what they can to beget others into , as if all the worlds were for ever utterly undone , and under the losse of all saving truth , and utterly without any possible way , whereby to come to the knowledge of the will of God concerning them in order to their souls Salvation from sin and wrath to come , if the outward Letter or External text of the Scripture be not Talkt up into the Throne as the onely Lapis Lydius ex 3.5 . 33 sure Word of God , infallible guide , Trusty Teacher , Supream Iudge , perfect Rule , st●m foundation , stable Standard , fixt , unerring , unalterable measure , and such like ( as I.O. states it to be ) by which all Doctrines , Faiths , Words , Writings , Spirits true or false must be toucht , tried and determined , or else no man can be at any certainty , where to be , what to believe , how to walk with God , which to take for Truth , and which to turn from ; I shall first plainly shew what the Scriptures are , and what we mean when we talk of Scriptures . 2. Briefly take notice of some of the base , unworthy , absurd abuses and fowl aspersions and unjust accusations whereby thou I.O. ( what in thee lies ) labourest much more abundantly and abominably ( I must needs say ) then the other ( as to this point ) to render us odious to all men as despisers and deniers of them ; and then 3 dly . addressing to the controversie it self , leave all , who shall read such Animadversions as are to be made by me of thy unfound Assertions about it , to judge by that light of God in their own Consciences , whether themselves or we erre most beside the Scripture , or most duly deserve the Censure of Anti-scripturists . First then I shall here give all men to understand more distinctly yet then I have hitherto done what it is that I intend , and what I would be understood as speaking of by this term ( the Scripture ) which is to be so often agitated in this Discourse between me and I.O. in whose Book also it is so often agitated ; and what sort of those Holy Scriptures it is , which is the common Subject of which so much is prated and predicated by I.O. that is as utterly denyed by the Quakers . That we may not by hanging in universals only , which are in no wise or sense truly seen , but by considering the particulars wherein they exist , conclude of things in a tumultuous mist of Confusion , as thou dost , distinguishing where thou shouldst not , and jumbling things into a kind of Omnigatherum which should be more singly and severally spoken of , whose Trumpet gives such an uncertain sound , that its hard to know either how or where one must prepare to the battel . The word ( Scripture ) then though it be an Vnivocal , nor AEquivocal ( as us'd by us ) yet is it a General Term , and so Ambiguous and doubtful , unless it be explained by its particulars , signifying not only all other kinds of Scriptures , good and bad , that ever were in the world , but also more kinds , then one , of that kind of Scripture which Abstractively from , and more eminently then the rest in regard of its worth , we ordinarily call The Scripture , and have singled out from all the rest as our Present Subject . What thou meanst in thy heedlesse handiement of this more General Subject I can hardly find ; thou drivest it on when thou Praedicatest this and that of it in most parts of thy Dispute at Randome in general terms , and run'st away with the word ( Scripture ) at all adventure , scribling it over again and again , The Scripture is this , the Scripture is that , the Scripture is written by Inspiration of God , the Scripture is the Word of God , the Scripture is entire to a tittle & perfect . &c. scarcely shewing which of those Three several sorts of it , which thy self hast divided it into , thou wouldst have us to understand thee as speaking of , when thou denominarest these high things of it ( viz. ) Whether first thou mean the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou caliest them , pag. 13. ) ( I ) The individual and immediate Manuscripts of Moses , the Prophets , and Apostles , and such holy and honest men , as were the first Pen-men of the sundry Parcels of that holy Scripture , which was copied cut , the Copy whereof is bound up in the bulk now called the Bible . Or secondly , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( I ) the transcribed Copies thereof , whether first immediate , that were ( at first hand ) taken out of the first Copies : Or secondly , those mighty mediate and far remote ones , taken by thou knowst not whom , out of thou knowst not what Copies , that were handed downwards successively , not without some mixtures , mistakes , and ( for ought though knowest ) losse of much of what was at first , throw all the dark Ages since then , to this of ours , by men that were some faithful , and some unfaithful , but none of them infallible ( by thy own confession , p. 167. ) or divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for them in any thing to mistake ; which uncertain Copies ye have as your only Rule and Canon at this day ; in which Copies neverthelesse of the Originals yet remaining , that may ( secundum te I.O. according to thy Concession ) be more or lesse crooked , as it happens , and ( thy self granting there are varieties among them ) cannot be all true ; Thou dost not blush ( p. 173. ) to adde and say , That the whole Scripture entire , as given out from God , is preserved without any losse , and within them all is every Letter and Tittle , &c. Or Thirdly , Whether thou mean the several and various Copies of the Translations of those various and several Transcriptions into several Tongues and Languages . What thou meanest ( I say ) or which of all these Three sorts of Writings , whether the first Manuscripts only , or the Transcripts and Translations also ; or the Two first only , and not the last , or all the Three ; which are all Three commonly called ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) The Holy Scriptures , When thou Praedicatest these glorious things of the Scripture , thou dost not very distinctly declare , but goest on in generals , and that Dolus latet in universalibus , thou art not ignorant ; so that he had need to be wise that very easily discerns thy mind , and what thou meanest : yet this I know full well , and 't is the more shame for thee if thou be ignorant of it , that some things may be said ( tru'y ) of some one of these , that cannot ( without falshood ) be affirmed of the other Two , and some things of Two that cannot of the Third ; and he understands neither what he saith , nor whereof he affirmeth , whosoever he is , that without distinction denominates all the things , that thou dost of the Scriptures , of these Three sorts all alike , or of any Two of them either , most of which will , upon due examination , not be found duly applicable to the very best . But whether thou intend one or two only , or all these Three throughout thy Book , when thou contendest for the Scriptures to be now entire to a tittle , as at first giving forth , to be the Light , Word , Power of God , and such like , is not easie to learn. If ever we hear of thee again about the Scriptures , I desire thee to speak home as to these particulars , and to write thy mind more fully and plainly , and singly out , as in all places of thy Book thou hast not done , but as one that hates the Light ; and is not willing to come to close , pinchest in thy mind , and winkest , and twinklest , and triflest , and keepest back , as if thou wert afraid ( as no doubt thou art , though he that doth truth is not , Ioh. 3.20 , 21. ) to look the Light too fully in the face , or ( Ex. 4 S. 14. ) Subtilius Disputare , to dive too deep in thy Dispuration about the Light ; or , as the Elephant , to drink more then needs must in fair water for fear of seeing a foul face : but veritas non quaerit A●gulos . For my part I shall deal ingnuously with thee in this , There are some things thou affirmest of the Scriptures which I can grant to be true of some one of these Three ( viz. of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) that are not true of either the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Translations : And there be some things to be said truly of these two , that are not true of the first , and some things of the second , that are not true of the first , nor of the third , and somewhat of the third , that 's not true of either of the other . But when thou scarest so high as to affirm the Scriptures ( as thou dost ) in general , to be the same in every tittle , syllable and iota as at first , to be the Word of God , the Living Word , the Spiritual Light , the Power of God , and much more , as will appear when I come to Reck●n up , and rank the things thou Praedicatest of the Scriptures in Order , in order to my Answering of them , I ( who shall ever put a difference between the Writing of the Word , and the Word it self Written of ) do absolutely deny all these things of all the Three sorts above mentioned ; and if it stand so as that thou understandest all these Three ( as thou dost of one of them at least , and that of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Transcriptions , if but of one , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or first Manuscripts , being all lost and mouldred , and Translations all corrupted by thy own confession ) when thou affirmest all these things of the Scripture , then , so let it stand for me till I have tryed the truth of thy Positions , after which I hope all that stands not upon good ground , will of it self to the ground come tumbling down . And as by the Word ( Scripture ) I mean ( excepting where such things only are Praedicated as are peculiar only to either One , or Two of them , and not to all the Three ) no less then all these three sorts of Scripture in the main Controversie with thee , so no more then these three sorts , and these not one jot more , not yet any farther then ( quâ tales ) ( 1 ) So far only as they are Scriptures ( properly , truly , and formally so called and considered ) or * outward Writings , Expressions , or Declarations ad extra , by Letters legible to our bodily eyes , however extant upon what ever outward matter capable to receive their impression , Tables of Stone , Walls , Skin , Parchment , Paper , by the finger of God , or hands of men , whether Writing ( the issue of which is Propriissime stiled Scripture ) or Cutting , Graving , Stamping , Printing , in which way , since that Art came up , the Scriptures are now most extant , the effect of which though most properly it be called Print or Scu●pture , yet ( not to be too close and curious in Criticizing about Cockle-shells ) shall be allowed by me ( as to our purpose ) properly enough to passe under that name of Scripture . I say then 't is the Letter , and not the Matter ; the Writings , and not the Subjects , Things , Truths , Doctrins , or Word written of , that is the Subject to come under Consideration between us ; whatever those things are that are therein declared , though 't is like we shall not passe them by neither , without taking some useful notice of them ; yet that makes nothing to us in the State of our Question , as it stands before us , nor will all thy tumultuous hudling it over in haste hinder this , nor thy shuffles about it shuffle it off , it is the Declaration that thy Disputation with the Quakers is about , considered as abstract from what is thereby declared ; for by the Scripture I intend not the Law it self written , nor the Gospel , nor the Light , nor the Faith therein exhibited to us , and held forth to be read of in the Writing , for these are not the Scripture , nor is the Scripture any of these , but the Writing it self that holds these forth ; I call no other thing the Scripture then that which is truly the Scripture , and that is no other thing then the Scripture it self ; I call the Scripture , or the outward Declaration , no other things , and by no other Names then those it calls it self by , † or are truly answerable to its nature , and that is no other then the Scripture , a Declaration of those things that were believed , and of the Word , of the Faith that was preached , a Letter , a Writing , Holy Scriptures , Scriptures of Truth , Books of Writing that consist , Treat of , and Declare in forms of plain , true , suitable and sound words , various true things , sound Doctrines , by which many unsound Doctrines of Divels , of false Prophets , Priests , Scribes , and Pharisees , of false Brethren , ungodly Men that creep in , and turn the Grace of God into lasciviousness ; of false Apostles that brought in Doctrines contrary to that at first delivered , and served their own bellies and not Christ , Taught for Doctrines Traditions of men ; of Iannes and Iambes that resisted the Truth , of Baldam , the Nicolaitans , of Iezebel and Satan , ( which are all written of , and declared in the Scriptures of Truth , as well as those of God , Christ , the Spirit , the Light and Truth it self ) do stand not approved , but reproved and condemned ; useful Histories of what was done , and spoken in sundry times and ages past by God and Christ , and the Divel himself , and Men good and bad , and by Balaam and his Asse also ; Pretious Prophesies of things , viz. of good to the good , of bad to the bad ; Comfortable Promises to the seed that is the Heir of them ; Terrible Threatnings to the seed of Evil doers , and Woes to the Wicked ; Profitable Epistles to such as they were Wrote to ; Blessings , Curses , Prohibitions , Commands ; Copies of Psalms and Songs that were sung ; Proverbs that were spoken ; Letters that were written from men to men ; some by good men at the motion of the Spirit of God ; some by Evil men out of malice against Gods Servants , at the motion of the Devil ; Some not without the Spirit , by such as lived and walked in the Spirit , and were , in all they did , led by the Spirit , to some private Christians about some worldly Affairs , as that of Paul to Philemon ; Some by Chief Captains to their Presidents , and by Presidents to their Princes about Prisoners and Tumults ; and divers other sorts of passages ; So that ( as written in the Spirit ) the Holy Scriptures may be said to be Homogeneous Writings , all of one kind ; but in respect of the several businesses written of therein , they are at Heterogeneous ( I ) a body or bulk of as various Writings as any extant in the World-besides them . Now by the Scriptures I mean these Writings that contain the matters abovesaid , and many more , and not the matters themselves therein contained ; And if thou mean by the Scriptures any other things then the Scriptures themselves ( as like a Reed shaken with the wind , thou seemest sometimes to do , and again sometimes not to do ) and which things the Scriptures are not ; or by any other things which are not the Scriptures when thou speakest of them , ( viz. ) the Law , Word of God , the spiritual Light , &c. meanest the Scripture ( as sure enough thou dost well-nigh throughout thy confused discourses and disputations about it ) then thy meanings are too mean to be any otherwise at all , then meanly accounted on among any that mean honestly , and plainly , and know the Truth as it is in Jesus . By us when we talk of the Scriptures ( to use thy own words , onely vice versa , Ex. 1. Sect. 26. non sanctissima ista veritas , seu materia Scripturarium , sed scriptura formaliter considerata intenditur , honestly and plainly we intend that onely which is so , even the form of writing it self , and not the matter , or holy truths of the Scripture , the Scripturam , and not the Scriptum , or at most the Litteram Scriptam , not the rem scriptam , not the Verbum Scriptum , the Declaration , and not the Doctrine declared , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the letter in the oldnesse of which thou art yet serving , who knowest not the newness of the spirit , the Scripture or Writings of the Prophecy , and not the Prophesie of , or contained in the writing , nor the Prophetical VVord , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the writing , for so the word is there translated truly , 2 Chron. chapter 21. not the VVord Written , or word of Prophesie that came to Elijah , and was sent in a Writing to the King , which thou falsly sayest , p. 12. that Hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used for in that Text ; and every wise man that is truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( especially ) in a dispute , where the Question is , whether the writing of the Word of God be the Word of God Written of , or no , while sub judice lis est , will , till the thing in debate one way or other be clearly determined , remember still to keep these two things ( as two ) asunder . So thou dost thy self while thou art well in thy wits , witness thy words above cited by myself , Ex. 1. S. 28. where thou puttest a plain difference between the Scripture it self formally considered , and the most Holy Truth or matter therein delivered ; yea when ever thou keepest in any measure of sober-mindednesse , thou keep'st these two as distinct in thy discourse , as the two sticks of Iudah and Ioseph , Ezek. 37 19 , 17. that were superscribed with two several superscriptions , vouchsafing to each its own proper name , and not communicating the name of either unto the other , but clearly dividing between them , so as that any one may see thou thy self dost not believe one of them to be the other , nor yet darest affirm them to be Synonymous , witness , p. 12 , 13. where thou makest them two , and writest of one of them all along , as in contradistinction to the other , in these Terms , viz. not the Doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self , The Providence of God no lesse concerned in the preservation of the writings , then the Doctrine contained in them , the Writing it self being the product of his Counsel for the preservation of his Doctrine , Satan hath no lesse raged against the Book , then against the Truth contained in it , it was no lesse crime of old to be Traditor libri then to be Abnegator fidel ; which sour last Assertions of thine , though they are , all four , false tales , for Providence is not so much concerned to preserve the Writings as the Doctrine , neither is the Writing so necessary for the preserving of the Doctrine , that ( as thou there hintest it must ) it must needs perish if the Writings perish , for it was before them , and may be without them , and will be after them ; Neither thirdly is the malice of Satan so much against the Book called the Bible , as against the Doctrine of the truth , for he is willing to let hypocrites alone long enough to carry gaudy Bibles under their arms , so be they serve him , and abide not in Christs Doctrine , nor in the Truth , the Scripture tells of , neither 4ly . is it or ever was it so great a Crime to betray the Book called the Bible , as to deny the Faith , and the Word of Faith therein written of , for the Book is not worth a Pin , as to salvation , without the Faith , but the Faith is sufficient thereto without the Book , and was so before the Book was , ( witnesse the Worthies from Abel to Moses , whose sufficient faith is written of , Heb. 11. ) and would be if the Pope and the Devils rage should reach so far as to burn all the Bibles in the World ; so here 's four utter untruths asserted together , neverthelesse as they are Tru-lies , yet are they true enough to serve the truth , I here summon them in proof of , viz. that thou thy self ( who countest it as bad not to be as trusty to the Bible , as to the Truth that 's in it , as it is to betray the Truth , and deny the Faith ) dost deny the Book , or Scripture , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or the Writing to be one and the same with the Faith , Truth and Doctrine , or the Doctrine to be the Writing , or that these can truly be denominated each of other . I say then that here , being more sober minded , as to thy discerning between the writing and the written verity ( though drunk enough elsewise to lay so many lyes , or at least so many tales that are not true upon the top one of another in so small a space as one short Section ) thou art freely willing fairly to distinguish them into two . Yea further yet , that thou dost not judge these two to be one , it may appear plainly to thy self , or any that are free to peruse the places in the 16. and 17. Sections of the same first Chapter , for if thou didst , then in the enjoyment of the one , thou wouldest be satisfied , as judging thy self consequently enjoying the other , but that thou art not in any wise , for howbeit , by thy own confession there , Sect. 16. Capellus grants thee , that the full enjoyment of the saving Doctrine of the Scripture is yet to be had , or obtained by such as look chiefly after that , let the Letter be never so corrupted , yet thou art at no hand content with this , but piteously pinest after something else , which is not this saving Doctrine of the Scripture , nor the Doctrine in it , but another thing , from which this contained Doctrine is distinguished , and that is the Scripture it self , which thou judged thou hast not , notwithstanding thou hast its Doctrine , unless thou have the Letter or Writing also , and that so exactly and entire without alteration and ablation , that not a tittle of it nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be found lacking ; these are thy words . Sect. 17. Nor is it enough to satisfie us , that the Doctrines mentioned are preserved entire , every tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Scripture , in that Writing , see Sect. 13 , in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we have , must come under our care and consideration , and to say the truth , as thou putest a difference between the Scriptures of Truth , and the Truth written of in the Scriptures sometimes ( as I ever do ) so it is the Scriptures of the Truth more then the Truth it self , of which they are the Scriptures , that thou mostly scrawlest for in those thy Scriptures for them , which yet as is said above are not more for in shews and words , then in deed , and in truth they are against them ; nor is it the most substantial parts of that bare Letter that thou wranglest for so much , as for the more accidental parts thereof , viz. the points , trivial tittles and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So then it is concluded hitherto on both hands , First , by thy self , as well as ●ly . by me , that the Scripture and its Doctrine are not one , but two several businesses , whereof the , First viz. the Scriptures are the subject matter so contended about between thee and the Quakers ; As for T.D. he draws his neck out of the Coller here , and after he had engaged me to discourse it publickly with him , whether the Scripture were the Word of God or not ? and at the dispute desiring to know what I held about it , when he heard how I on the Quakers behalf declared what we meant by the Scriptures , viz. the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Writing , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. the Letter , and that we onely deny that Denomination of the Word of God to that , not to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Word , or Doctrine , or Truth of God written therein , he gave us the Question without more ado , saying thus , You cannot believe us , to be so simple ( surely ) as to affirm the Scriptures in that sense the Word of God , but we mean the matter contained in the writing , whether that be our Rule of Faith and Life ? P. 26. of his first Pamp. which subject matter or Doctrine and Truth contained in the Writing , and testified to in it , which was before ever the Writing was , and is ( as to the substance of it ) eternally and unchangeably the same , Christ the Word , the Wisdom , Righteousnesse of God , the War , Truth , Life , both yeaster-day to day and for ever , we never denyed to be the Word , and Rule , and Foundation , and what ever else I.O. and the whole School of our English Scribes do ignorantly and falsly say the Scripture is , though we are mistaken by most as denying the holy Matter it Treats of so to be ; but the matter is not the Writing , or the Scripture , but that which is onely written o● in it , but the outward written Letter or Scripture , much more the Book in which the writing is , which I.O. is so busy for , and for every point , written title and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this not onely we deny to be the Word of God , but all our rash reproachers of us as denying the Scripture to be the Word , when we come to their faces , are fain to fall in and deny the same with us also ; so Christopher Fowler after a long hot Publick Dispute at Reading with E.B. and my self upon this question , Whether the Scripture be the Word of God or no ? in which he contended a great while together it was , at last confessed openly and plainly before all the People and Magistrates there present , that the Scripture or Writing ( and I know not what else is properly and truly the Scripture but the Writing ) is not the Word of God ; after which concession of C.F. they would hear no longer dispute , but the Quakers were driven out of doors . But I.O. standeth stifly to it , that the Word of God is the Proper Name of the Scripture , and even of every tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , against the Quakers ; for that the Truth and Doctrine of it , or of Christ declared in it , is Spiritual , Powerful , saving , Perfect , so that Cursed will he be that adds to or detracts from it , no Quaker will deny , and to fight for the perfection and integrity of that with them , is but to fight without an Adversary . Howbeit I.O. when thy Brains ( as it were ) begin to crow ( as they often do ) like a man in a maze , thou fetchest another turn back again upon the wheel , and , as inconsiderately , as contradictorily to thy self thou blendest and confoundest these two sundry things , that were before so severed by thy very self , into one again , so that as the two sticks aforesaid became one in the Prophets hands , so these two , that were sometime put asunder , and with thy own hand inscribed with different Titles , are joyned , Indentically Intituled , denominated each of other , as Synonymous , & of two that stood divided , made one individual , of two sticks become one under thy own hand , which writes of the writing , and the thing written as of one , and in its handling of them handles and feels no such matter of distinction between the Scripturam , and the Scriptum , the Literam Scriptam , and the rem , or Doctrinam , or veritatem Scriptam , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Scriptiunculam Verbi , de Verbo , and the Verbum Scriptum , the Letter or VVriting , and the Doctrine or Truth written , the Scripture of , or concerning the Law , Light , Gospel , and VVord of God , and the Law , Light , Gospel , and VVord of God it self , of which the Scripture is but a true writing or Declration . Yea whereas in that one single Section lastly cited , Tr. 1. ch . 1. S. 13. thou makes distinction in thy sound , no lesse then four times between them , first the VVritings and the Doctrine ; secondly , the Writing and the Doctrine ; thirdly , the Book and the Truth ; fourthly , the Book and the Faith ; in the very Section immediately foregoing , viz Sect. 12. which is as small as this , thou ( all things well considered as they stand therein ) almost if not altogether as frequently dost confound them , and write as if with thee they were as one ; for besides thy stiling the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Writing or Scripture , which is well-nigh the total Subject Treated on in that Section , by these names , viz. the Prophecy of Scripture , the word of Prophesie , the written VVord , the Word of God , and thy loud lying , in saying , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is above fifty times , in the New Testament , put absolutely for the Word of God , not proving it to be so put so much as once , not being able ( sure I am ) to prove it to be half so often , if thou couldest ( as I shall shew elsewhere ) prove it so to be put an hundred & fifty times , all that would prove nothing to thy chief purpose , which utter untruth , must be more talk't with in another place , thou twice there makest one of them as explanatory onely of thy mind , and of what thou meanest by the other in these Terms , viz. the writing or written word , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self or ( which [ or ] is there more conjunctive then disjunctive ) the Doctrine ( as written ) also thou makest the one but explicatory of the other in many other places , ( viz. ) Ep. Ded. P. 20. Tr. 1. ch . 4. S. 2. S. 19. and Ex. 1. S. 24. where thou writest of them , not S●orsim as of two , but conjunctim as of one and the self same thing , thus Scripturam sacram seu verbum Dei scriptum , the Scripture or written Word of God , sacred Letters ( the written Word ) N● so incogiaant art thou , as not onely both to divide into two , and confound again into one these two distinct Subjects , viz. the Scripture , and the Word of God , the writing and Doctrine of Christ therein declared within so small a compass , as the space of two small Sections standing both together , but thou both dividest and confoundest them within the little corner of one single sentence , witnesse the last clause of the twelfth Section of the first chapter of thy Treatise above cited , where thou expressest thy self thus , viz. not onely the Doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it self , or the Doctrine ( as written ) is from God , ( 1 ) as his Word , for so thou meanest still by that term [ from God ] in the first part of which the Doctrine written in the Scripture , and the Scripture it self are made two , in the latter the Scripture & the Doctrine written ( as written ) in it are made one , which is the same Doctrine still , as well when considered ( as written ) as when considered ( as not Written ) and is neither more nor lesse of God , whether written or not written , and under both these notions , a distinct thing from the writing evermore : If the Serpent can hansomly and fairly twine himself out here from the just censure of a self confounder , let him scape scot-free this once and in this one thing for me , but if he cannot do it without dawbing and dribling , and shuffling , and shifting , and cutting , and lying against the Light within , then let him hang there for me in his Fetters of darknesse , till he learn to speak without confusion , for I know not how in a way of honesty to help him out , or take him down . CHAP. II. HAving shewed what truly and properly the Scripture is , and what we , the Quakers , intend , and I.O. also ( if we may take him as meaning , what he mostly sayes ) by that Term ( Scripture ) when we deny it to be what thou contend'st it to be , and pleadest against us for , as its Proper Name , viz. the Word of God , &c. I come next to those base abuses put upon us , and false matters charged against us ( partly ) by T.D. in his first Pamphlet , but ( principally ) by thee I.O. as concerning our carriage toward the Scriptures , Principally in thy Latine Legend , wherein thou lyest more at liberty , then in thy two English pieces of emptinesse , and the more securely by how much thou seemest ( to thy self at least ) to lye more hidden , or more obscurely , out of the reach of their rebuke , whom thou reproachest in that Latine Language , then in the other ; insomuch that by thy own speeches we may conclude , that thy whole work ( as relating to the Quakers ) which is fronted ( but fronti nulla fides ) with Pro Scripturis , Adversus Fanaticos , for the Scriptures against the Fanaticks ( with which new nick-name the Quakers by many more besides thy self , who ( Arbitrio Diabolico ) wast one of the first Imposers of it on that ( truly ) enlightned people , begin now to be abusively branded ) seems to be designed more to the sporting thy own and thy School-fellowes le●d spightful Spirits , by playing upon the Quakers in secret , in your dark Divinity cels among your selves , then either to convince them to their faces of such errors as thou erroneously accusest them of , or by thy crude Theological Disputations , Determinations ( tumultuarie sane fatis conscriptas ) as thou callest them ad lectorem , to confute the Quakers plainly and openly , before Plain-hearted people ; witnesse thy own saying to the like effect , which I shall first enter at , as it lies in thy little Latine Lecture Ad Lectorem . † J.O. The Fanaticks ( or with thee the Quak ) , who are in these dayes most notable in their errors and foolishnesse , we here Principally assault . But no man could be deemed to dote so much as my self , if I aimed at the convincing of them by what I here write sith they no more understand the speech we here use , then we at any time can perceive that indigested sound of words , void of all sound sense , whereby they , when they speak , seem to noise it out , to not onely one another , but all others also , Ex. 2. Sect. 23. They ( the Quakers ) are well nigh all unlearned , and skild no further then their mother Tongue . Rep The more shame for thee I.O. if the Quakers be all so unlearned , and utterly unintelligent in the Latine Tongue ( as thou sayest ) that thou talkest therein against them ( as thou dost ) and chargest them with much more error in Doctrine and evil in life , then will ever be made good against them by thy self or any of thine Abetrours or stand approved for Truth , while the world stands among spiritually understanding and honest minded men , when they come to be divested ( as hereby they are to be ) our of that disguise thou dressest them our in to thy Iunior Ieerers at Christs own Image , which is seen upon them . Was it not enough for thee to have belved them in English , as no lesse then twice ore thou hast done in thy Epistle Dedicatory of thy Dean-like doings to thy Reverend Friends the Prebends and Students in Divinity , in that Society ( so called ) of Ch. Church Col. in Oxford , where thou wast lately Dean ( but quo jure divino , I yet know not ) but thou must likewise needs lay at them , and lye in ambush , and talk , and take on against them in a Tongue , wherein ( if thy surmise of their Vniversal ignorance of thy Latine Lyes had been as sound as it seemed to be ) they had been left , not onely uncapable to do ought in their own defence , in the mid'st of thy many mischievous accusations , but also insensible of any hur● at all , or of who it was that hurt them , with the sharp A●rows , which , our of the same Devils Bow with T.D. in his , thou shootest at Randome at them , in that thy Divine piece of lying Divination . Art thou not in this one of those ( to whom the Wo is , Isa. 29.1516 . That seek deep to hide their Counsel from the Lord , whose works are in the dark , and they say who seeth us ? and who knoweth us ? whose turning of things upside down , shall be esteemed as the Potters clay ? Art thou not herein as like one of the old Bastardly Broods , viz. the Amm●nites and Ashdodites , Zach. 9.6 . that were adversaries to the True Israel of God ? yea as like Samballat and Tobia as ever thou canst look , who ( with the rest of their Co-conspiratours against the Lords work , that of the builders of Ierusalem , that removed the Babylonish Rubbish , in order to the Repairing of Breaches , the Restoring the Pure Primitive Truth , the building of the Old Wastes out of the Ruines and dejo●ations , and the laying the foundations of many Generations , Isa. 58 . ) said much what to the same tune , as thou dost of the Qua●ers , Neh 3. II. They shall not know neither see till we come in the midst among them , and slay them and cause the work to cease ? sure thou wast doubtful of being cal'd to acc●unt by the Quakers , and conscious to thy self of thy own uncapablenesse to clear thy self in thy false accusations of them , as denyers , despisers , sleighters of Gods Word and the Scriptures , &c. hadst thou floured them so sowlly , and charged them so falsly in English as thou dost in Latine , and therefore ( as the Laws made for English people to be Ordered , judged , and Tryed by , that the Lawers may prey the more perfectly upon their purses , are laid up out of poor peoples sight in obscure terms , long Scroles , and Latine screel scrawls so ) thou chosest to be a Barbarian to the Quakers , ( as they seem to be to thy self , who art lost so far in Hebrew , Greek and Latin , as not to know plain English ) and to talk to thy Barbarous Brotherhood against them in a Language they ( as thou thoughest ) understand not , rather then to talk to them in a known tongue , about that enmity to the Word of God and the Scripture , which thou inditest them ( at your High Commission ) as guilty of ; But very unjustly : for As blindly as thou Judgest we deny , and carelesly forget the Scriptures , because we , like Sheep , are silent in the light , and not whining for it among the Swine , that seed no higher then on the empty husk , yet we have not so foregone it , but that ( according to Christs promise to such as are in the Spirit , Iohn 14. ) upon new occasion , what ever we have read in it of the mind of Christ of old , is by that Spirit brought a new to our remembrance ; and we know so much by it , that even it ( now the word , it speaks of , is put into their mouths , as their chiefest strength ) shall be excellently useful , and used by both the Tongues , and Pens of very Babes and Sucklings , to still and stop the mouths of such Adversaries , to the Truth , and the Light , and the Letter also as thou yet art , who talkest utterly against the Scripture in thy talking for it , and pluckest it down while thou Placest it above the Light , and by all thy Proof less provings of the Letter to be ( as the light it pleads for , and thou against , onely is ) a self evidencing Light and Power , hast in Truth proved thy own undertakings in that behalf , to be a piteous plain , self evidencing piece of great weaknesse , and greater darknesse ; and many more uses are to be made of the Letter yet , as well as to beat the abusers of the Scripture , and the livers besides it with their own Weapon , of which more anon in its place ; and if we knew it not in the Light , as we do , yet from the very Letter we are well aware , that the burthen of base born Moab is near to come upon him , and the Night wherein A● of Moab must be cut off and brought to silence , and the Night wherein Ki● of Moab is to be cut off and brought to silence and that the time is near to come , wherein as the Saints are now silent in Light before him , who keepeth their feet that they do not slide , so the wicked , whose way is a slipery places in the dark , will be driven on till they fall therein , and shall at last be silent in darknesse for ever , and bowl within themselves , ( but no more so loudly against the Light ) for by strength shall no man Prevail , Isa. 51.1 . I Sam. 2. 21. Nevertheless we must give you loosers leave to talk up your talk ; for whether we will or no talk ye will yet a while , so long as your tongues are your own untamed and without the bridle , which while they are , though ye seem to be Religious ( as thou I.O. dost ) yet all your Religion is but vain ; and though in the Light we know what we know , yet from the Letter ye will be thinking your think , and thrusting out your idle thoughts too , till your hands be tied , against the true Light , and its Friends , of which ye make a mear mocking stock among your selves , and must mightily then when ye are got ( as ye suppose ) out of sight , divining Lyes together in your Lattine Divinity Disputations ; and out of the Cup of your own Imaginations sit tipling to each other in the dark , when ye are drunken as drun●erds with your own wisdom as with sweet wine , and folden together as thorns , thinking no hands can touch or take you to thrust you away , then ye lye in Lattin together at ease , as in a Bed , wherein ye take your fill of Lies , which ye love , till ye be utterly burnt with fire in your place , and be devoured as stubble fully drie , 2 Sam 23.6 , 7. Nah. 1.9.10 . Nor worse nor better then thus is the Case with thee I.O. and those Sons of Belial that wonder after thee ; nor is it any otherwise with thee and thy wondrous Work , which thy own heart , head , and hands have not only wrought , and wrote , but brought forth also into the world against the Quakers , wherein , but especially in that last Fourfold Latine Fardel , which ( thy Two former Flim-flams falling into one with it ) flows with them in one floud of folly and falshood , wherein [ hoping ( having lap 't thy self close up in the Fig leaves of that little learning and Logick that is used therein ) thou liest hid out of the sight of the Quakers , whose light thou deemest not large enough to lay hold on thee in that Syllogistical Siege thou there layest , and those Logical lurking holes in which thou lyest in a learned Leagure against them ] thou adventurest more securely , then thou durst well do in thy smooth English Sermons , to ease thy self of thy Adversaries , and Avenge thee on thine Enemies the Quakers , whom thou art afraid of , though they are Friends to thee , and to the best thats in thee , which is not of thee , more then thou art , or to it , or to thy self . And being in a tumultuous hurry , in hideous haste , in the heat of Iealousie ( which makes all look yellow ) in the height of Anguish , and such like mistiness together , thou runnest over hedge and ditch , not minding so much as the Path of common Reason , Equity , Honesty , or Truth , not regarding any guide or Rule to direct thy Course by , whether the Light , or the Letter , or ( as to thy Disputation ) the line of Logick it self ; which two last thou pretendest ( at least ) to be led by , but in reality art led in a certain muddiness of minde ( Reapse ) besides them all ; till ( as Canis Festinans caecos parit catulos ) thou hast brought forth not only a bundle of Lyes and Abuses of the Quakers , but also a business as full of learned blindness as most that ever I have read , of no bigger bulk : Howbeit thou grantest thy self a Dispensation to over come all thou Disputest with in thy Disputation , sith ( be it never so full of groapable darkness , even to thy friends , and fellows , who will see , and say nothing , yet ) it s laid up close , and safe from the sight of thy Antagonists the Quakers , within the linnen shrowd of a dark Language , so that the Quakers cannot know any of all this : for , poor , deluded , Fanatical , silly souls , they ( quoth I.O. ) no more understand that Language , which we here make use of , then we ( Naturalists ) can comprehend that hidden nonsensical [ alias Spiritual ] sound of words , in which they seem to gape it out not only to all others , but each to other 〈◊〉 in their Discourses : Thus like the Woodcock which having hid his head in a hole so that he seeth nobody , thereby gathers that nobody seeth him , thou judgest of such whose lives are hid from thee , with Christ in God , that thy life , and Lyes likewise are hid from them : yet there are some , and ( for ought thou knowest not a few ) among the Quakers , who have been where thou art , though where they now are thou canst never come , but thorow a true death to thy own will , and present foolish wisdom , even that shameful death of the Cross , by whom not only with that Eye , where with thou seest , thou are seen , but also in that Light , in which spiritual men discern both theirs , and them , by whom themselves are not discerned , thou art both seen and comprehended ; and though thou givest thy self leave to win all thou Playest for , while thou Playest alone by thy single self ; yet when the Game begins again ( as here it doth between thee and the Quakers , as it hath between thee and some of thy own Fellows , who have already entered the Lists and taken thee to do viz. Henry Stubbs of thy own society ) thou mayest possibly prove no such Gainer , as yet thou goest for , among such as side with thee [ hook or crook ] in thy crooked carriage of thy crooked Cause , by then both ends of thy Discourses for it be brought together ; by which time it may likely appear to any save such , whose interest compels them to chuse rather to be ignorant , and let the Quakers Books alone , then to be taught by them , how thou and thy Tracts and Tractatles , trace it to and fro out of the Track of all manner of Truth , in the clouds of confusion , up and down , in and out , and sometimes Round about , in not more illogical then Atheological shifts ; yet not more blindly , then boldly , sith unseen ( as is supposed ) by those who are most neerly concerned in the Cause and Controversy that 's carryed on by them . But as Crooked a Serpent as Leviathan is , yet his deceits are discryed , notwithstanding all his Twinings and Turnings , now this way , now that again to secure himself , yea the least of the little flock which he despiseth , is made , in the Light and Power of God , to Spie and draw him out with a hook , yea if it be but by a Sling-stone , Zach. 9. rather then his proud Reproaches shall go Unreproved , the Lord will subdue and bring down the Uncircumcised Philistine , that Devotes himself to defie both the Arme and Armies of the Living God. Thou tryest I.O. to loose thy self and thy malitious hissing at the light , from the observation of its Children , in thy Latine Laborinth , but herein thou hast lost thy self too too wofully , in another sense , in their open view , thy language is savoured to be unsavoury , and to be at best , but that of the mongril seed that speak half in that of Canaan and half in the Language of Ashdod ; thy Voice is sounded to be that of the Stranger , whom none of Christs Sheep will ever follow ; and as smooth as it is , like that of Iacob now and then , yet thy hands are felt to be the Rough hands of Cain and Esau , wherewith thou coursly handlest thy innocent , plain , honest-hearted Brother , whose Sacrifice is accepted with God , as thine can never be while thy sin lyeth at the door ; Thou lyest hunting abroad for Blessings and Benefices in the Earth , and yet what thou gainest , even that way , by thy greedy gaping after it at one time , justly enough ( as from the Lords Hands ) for thy fighting against his Israel , thou loosest at another ; but what ere thou gettest or loosest here on earth , that seed of Iacob , against which thou bandest , will carry away from thee both the Birth-right and the Blessing of Heaven , and if thou turn not to the light thou hast been hitherto , in the vanity of thy mind , a scoffer at , and lay not hold on the Eternal Inheritance , and life , it leads to , in a very little while [ as in love to thy soul I here advise thee to do ] thou shalt never inherit it , but Death , Darknesse and the Curse for ever in its stead , though thou seek it carefully with thy tears . Finally I.O. iu aurem tibi dicam , let me tell thee this one thing in thy Ear , which yet [ as the case stands ] can hardly be Whispered so secretly to thee here , but that , an hundred to one , one or other will happen to know it [ and it matters not much who doth , or if all the world know it ] besides our selves , for t is a Truth told in love to the Truth first , and then to thee . Tractatu'us hic Tuus aut illorum tractatuum pars , this thy third little treatise , or last Latine piece ( call thou it what thou wilt ) is a very Lake of Lyes , and both it self , and Thou , who art the Author of it ; and whatsoever , and and whosever holds union so as to run along , or fall into fellowship with it , in any more then that little Truth , that here , and there may happily be uttered in it , run all down together with it in the Four Channels , or Exercitations of it , as it were under ground ( that the Quakers may not see it , who yet do see both whence it comes , and whither it goes ) throw the hollow holes , and cavernes , throw the several Sections , or lesser Rivelets thereof , as throw so many dark Cells , till , driving downward still throw that least , and last Head-lesse and Tail-lesse piece of Envy against the inner Light , they issue out into the outer darknesse , and at last all empty themselves headlong into the bottomlesse pit , from whence those Exercitations ( for the most part ) were at first exerted , and so , downward still , into the most dismal Lake of all , even the Lake of fire that burns with brimstone , which is the second death , where the strong Warriour , who is as ●oe , and his work , which is as a spark , and every Lyar , and his Lyes must lye and burn both together for ever , and not be quenched . And as for thy boasting thy self , and glorying over the Quakers as learned no farther then their meer Mother tongue , and such as understand not so much as the Latine tongue wherein thou ( cowardly enough ) encounterest them , nor know how to speak sound sense to your understandings , in their seeming b●bble to each other , and to all others ; Alas poor man , this is no newes to the Quakers to see Sanballats and Tobias's High Priests , Scribes and Pharisees , Doctors and reverend Rabbies , superstitious Athenians , University Philosophers , Epicureans , and Stoicks , who worship an unknown God , ( A generation of Arteficial Fools , and Scholastick ignorant Ones that of old encountered Paul , a better Schollar [ in Christs School ] a wiser builder then themselves , Acts 17. ) count Gods Prophets , Christ and his Apostles bringers of strange Matters , and New Doctrines to their Ears , medlers beyond their line , measure , Rule and Call , doers and speakers of bald businesses ; no newes to hear the Opposers of Truth in their Science ( falsly so called ) say of the Quakers , What will these feeble folk do ? Will they fortifie themselves ? Will they Sacrifice ? Will they make an end in a day ? Will they revive the stones out of the heaps of the Rubbish that are burnt ? That which they build , if a Fox go up , he shall even break down their stone wall , Neh. 4.2 , 3. Oh thou Seer ( that confessest thou wast neither bred nor born a Prophet , but an Herdsman ) com'st thou to Prophesie at Bethel ? at the Kings Chappel ? away hence to thy own Countrey , eat Bread and Prophesie there ; if thou wilt Prophesie , but come not here dropping thy word , thou art not a fit man to minister here , the Land will not bear thy words , Amos 7. Whence hath this man these things he pretends too , this boldness to teach us , having never learn't at our Schooles , being never brought up at our Nurseries of Learning and Religion ? and such like . But miserably wretched , and deluded men that ye are , ye little consider ( though the old Priests and Scribes , as bad as they were , took knowledge of such a thing in Peter and Iohn , Acts 4. ) that as outwardly unlearned and ignorant men , as the Quakers seem to you to be , yet they have been with Iesus , from whom they have learned that , by looking to him in his own Light , which all your meer sublunary literature can never lead you into the knowledge of , even that hidden Wisdom of God in a Mystery , which the Princes of this world are not acquainted with , that Crosse of Christ , the Wisdom , Power , Righteousnesse , Image and Glory of God , which is foolishnesse to them that p●rish : Ye glory in your Fencer-like Faculties of Disputing in Form , and Mood , and Figure over the Quakers , as a sort of Rusticks and Russet-Coats , disorderly Disputers , unruly and vain Talkers , because they are not Regulated , as your own blinded People are in all things ( implicitly ) by the Rules and wordly Rudiments of you Renowned Rabbies , but ye forget that the Lord hath rejected the Scribe and Disputer of this World , and will confound , and make foolish , and bring to nought all his strong , and wise , and mighty Matters ( that Are ) by the weak , foolish , base , abject , Contemptible things ( that Are not ) and by stammerring lips , and another Tongue , then they wot of , and by Precept upon Precept , line upon line , here a little and there a little make the Drunkard of Ephraim stagger , and stumble , and go backward and fall , and be broken , and snared , and taken ; and weary these vain , wise wild-Asses out of their Academical Niceties and Punctilio's out of their Accute Astutenesse , and Astute Accutenesse out of their witty Wiles , and wicked wrestlings against the Truth by a foolish Nation , that are even as no People in their eyes . Ye tell the World that these People know not the Law , and are accursed ( as your Fore-fathers did , saying , Do you see any of the Rulers of the Pharisees believe as they do ? ) they are un'earned and unstable , a giddy headed People that wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction ; But ye heed not how Christ tells the Scribes , that were as well skilled in searching into the Scripture as your selves , that they Erred , and knew not the Scriptures , nor the power of God ; and how even ignorant and unlearned Peter himself ( as to that Science of yours ( falsely so called ) or Wisdome of the flesh , which is ever enmity against God , and is never subject to his Law , nor can be ) speaks of another kind of un'earn'd , and unstable Ones , then those ye count so ( who are a thousand fold more ( spiritually ) discerning then your selves ) that being out of the Light and spirit , in which Paul and holy men gave them forth , wrest both Pauls Epistles , that are hard to be understood by the learned'st of our Letter-lauders , and also other Scriptures to their own ruine . The Quakers Preach Christ his Light and Crosse , the Power of God , the Wisdom of God to the Iew ( outwardly ) a stumbling Block and foolishnesse to the Greek ; the Quakers know not the Originals , ( say they ) How can they Expound and Open Scriptures ? They know not the language we here use ( quoth I.O. ) whose Lyes are most in Latine against the Quakers , who busies himself about the back-side of the Book , and tangles and turmoyls himself in tedious Tattle about the External Text , about the integrity of the Hebrew & the Greek ; But ye ( say I ) know not what is talked of in that Text it self ye so much talk of , when it tells of a time , wherein the Eyes of all Israel , as of one man , shall be toward the Lord , who will bend Judah for himself , and fill the Bow with Ephraim , and raise up the sons of Sion against the sons of Greece , and make them as the sword of a Mighty man in his hand ; Yea , who so blind about the Scripture it self , as well as about the things therein written , as the great Scripture searching Scribes , and Scholastick Scriblers thereupon ? who come not at all to Christ himself , whom the Scriptures testifie of , that they might have Light and Life ; who never at any time hear either his , or the Fathers voice , or see his shape ; so far are they from coming forth into his likenesse or Image , which ( in their own imaginations ) these Spiritual men of God ( so called ) pretend to appear in more then any others . Now as to the many frivoulous flouting phrases , and new fangled nick-Names , wherewith thou , who bearest Christs Name , more then his Nature ( like the old Heathen Enemies to the Truth ) dost cover its true Christian Friends , as it were with wild Beasts-skins , that looking on them under that likenesse , Name , and Notion of Deceivers , Destroyers , Lyars , Hypocrites , horrid , cursed , Diabolical Blasphemers , the Dogs of your Flocks may be hereby encouraged and set on to run the more greedily on to tear and worry them : These will all Reflect upon thy self the envious Exerter of them , and lye with no little load , like a Talent of Lead , upon thy Conscience , and sink thee down , among the rest of the uncircumcised in lips , into sore Condemnation , when thou awakest to behold him , who now cometh in Myriads of his Saints , to Convince and Iudge all ungodly Sinners for all the hard speeches they have ungodly spoken against him in his Saints , and Servants , whose Righteousness is of the Lord , and whose Heritage it is to condemne every false , Blasphemous and unruly Tongue , that ( as thine doth ) riseth up in Judgement against them . And as for us , the Reproach of Christ , is greater Riches to us then the Treasures of England , which ye are glorying in , and gaping after ; Nevertheless I shall here have a few words with thee about some few of them , as well as about the Lyes , that under them thou rellest of us . Thou ventest thy venome against us under those Two ( now vulgar ) Names of Quakers and Fanaticks , on this wise ; * J. O. The second part of the Question concerning the proper Name of the Scripture , relates to our Fanaticks , who from that Trembling wherewith they fain themselves to be shaken in their holy Services , or rather the power of that evil spirit , by which in very deed they are shaken , are commonly called Quakers . Reply : As for that holy duty it self of Quaking and Trembling at the Word of God , which as blind a guide and bruit a Beast as thou art in speaking evil of what thou knowest , as also of what thou knowest not , thou both ownest and acknowledgest the holy men of God , were taken with of old , when moved to utter his Word as it came to them ( witness thy own words , pag. 8. viz. the coming of the Word to them , filled them with dread and reverence of God , Hab. 3.16 . and also greatly affected even their outward man , though we dare not be so desperate as to damne it all for Diabolical , as thou dost , in these dayes , in which God hath his Prophets , and his People , as well as then ; yet we own it ( as thou in word dost ) and ( indeed as they did , Isa. 66.5 . ) and are ( as they by their Brethren ) hated and cast out by you our Brother Christians ( in Name ) for so doing ; which meer fleshly Brotherhood , who hate us , and cast out our Name as evil for his Names sake , shall be ashamed for it before him that appears to our joy ; and when Ierusalem hath first drunk her part [ as she is now a doing ] ye shall drink the dregs of the Cup of Trembling with the Devils [ whose Portion Trembling is , for all ye believe the History as they also do ] and wring them out together with all the wicked of the Earth . And as we own the thing , so [ saving all your Ironical Tauntings of us therewith , which we deny , as that , which ye even of God must be denied for ] we own the Name , when used in his fear , as that , which is both Arbitrio & Iure Divine , imposed by God himself , as their proper right , on his own People , whom himself from that holy Qualification of Trembling at his Word , even thereby , as by a peculiar Character , denominates , Isa. 66.5 . and distinguishes from all other people , that are found Quaking and Trembling mostly at the Word of man , whom his Saints have ceased from , whose breath is in his nostrils ; so that if the Word of man , earthly powers , Princes , Parliaments go forth for such or such a kind of Christianity , Religion , Worship , Order , or Form of Ecclesiastical Doctrine , or Discipline , they all , Priests and People , and the Nations that fear not God by whole-sale strait stand stupified Quaking , and Trembling , and fall down Worshipping , for fear of the Furnace ( the Quakers at Gods Word only excepted ) whatever Golden Image the King of Babilon pleases to set up , and impose on them to how down to : As to Name and Thing then we own that of Quaking and Trembling , but dare not like thy self , who ownest , and yet defamest it , corrupt our selves in what we know ; Nec tutum est ludere cum sacris , neither is it a safe matter for such a high Professor , as thou I.O. goest for , to jeast and fleere so as thou dost , about such holy matters as Quaking and Trembling at the Word of God , which thou must come to know nearer home , then ever yet , when that Word nigh in the heart , thou so sowlely fallest on , comes once to be felt in thee as an Hammer breaking thy Rocky heart to pieces , and to flame forth in thee as a fire , and a spirit of burning under the Pot , whose filthy scum boyls in it against the Truth , and is not yet purged away ; When thou comest to know Moses , of whom thou pratest so much , a little better then yet thou dost , thou shalt say , I exceedingly Fear and Quake ( ass●re they self ) as well as he , with whom thou must Tremble on Mount Sinai , Heb. 12.18 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , &c. at that voice of the Trumpet , and that Terrour of the Lord , and that Blacknesse , and Darknesse , and Tempest , which attends it , before thou come near Mount Sion , and to rest in the Hill thereof , as much as in an empty sound of Words thou art mounting up thither afore thy time . I.O. But this Dread and Terrour ( which Satan strove to imitate in his filthy Tripodes and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) was peculiar to the Old Testament , and belonged to the Paedogogy thereof ; the Spirit in the Declaration of the New Testament gave out his mind and will in a way of more liberty and glory , the manner of it related more to that glorious liberty in fellowship and Communion with the Father , whereunto Believers had then an accesse provided them by Jesus Christ. Rep. That the Devil may , and doth strive to imitate the things of God , I deny not ; yea , there 's scarse any outward Appearance or Form that the power of God puts it self forth in , but the power of the evil One in man strives ( Apishly ) to imitate and make the meer likenesse and Image of it ; but these Images and Imitations are made among the Magicians and Wisemen of Egypt , who are gone out from Gods Counsel , the Light and Power of God in the Conscience , into the meer Imaginations of their own vain minds and foolish hearts , leaning to their own benighted understandings ; but not among these who leaving their own Wisdom learn only at the lips of Christ , who leads even fools that love him , into the Substance it self , and that wisdom which makes wise to Salvation . 'T is true that as Iannes and Iambres withstood Moses by imitating what he did by the finger of God , and acting outwardly so as he , as far as they could , till they were forced to confesse they could now ( fainedly ) follow no further , and in a seeming shew did the same by their Enchantments . So 't is now , the Saints pray , so do the Sinners ; the Saints fast , so do the Sinners ; the Saints ; preach of a Gospel , a Kingdom to come , so do the Serpents ; the Saints meet , so do the Hypocrites ; the Saints Worship , so do the Idolaters ; the Saints in the Power and Spirit of God professe to be Godly and Holy , so do the zealous Sorceters in words , who bewitch the people that they cannot believe and obey the Truth , and their several seduced Societies which have ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the Form of Godlinesse , denying the power thereof , &c. And as it is true , that as the Quakers Tremble at Gods Word , so that the power of Gods voice , which shaketh the Cedars of Lebanon ( when heard ) as well as the lower shrubs , of●●times greatly affecteth the outward man ; so the Devil may cause some of his deluded ones to seem only to do the like : But what of all this ? Scillicet , because there is something done in Deceit , therefore nothing now done in Truth ; some Quaking is of the Devil , therefore none of God himself . This is the sum of I. O's sayings of all the Quakers in grosse ; if not , learn henceforth I.O. to take forth the prelious from the vile ( as Gods Prophets do , who are as his mouth , Ier. ) and not to jumble these together in one as hitherto thou hast done ; till then , I tell thee from the Quakers , so called , that faining and being driven by the Devil , thou fatherest on us , we are far from , and deny it as one of the many Lyes the Devil drives thee to defame us with , who are in the Truth , which the Devil abode not in , whose Works , with himself and his Lyes , and that Deceit which is of him , and dwells in thee , we deny and defie also for ever . And now whereas thou talkest of only Liberty , and Glory , and Fellowship with the Father in these dayes of the New Testament , and such Quaking , Trembling , Terrour , Dread , &c. as greatly affects the outward man , as a matter belonging to them of old , only to the Iewish Paedagogy , &c. as if the Word must come to you now in a smoother manner , then to Gods Servants and Prophets heretofore . Herein thou talkest as if the time of all such Trouble , Terrour , Dread , and Trembling at hearing of the Word of God , as usually affected the outward man , and was in the Prophets , was all perfectly past , and men should see no more of that in the world among the Servants of the Lord from that time , and forward , wherein Christ after the flesh was outwardly incarnated , Crucified . and Risen again from the dead ; and all the Appearances of the Lord to his Apostles , Prophets , Messengers , Ministers and Servants , whom he sends forth on his Errand into the world now a dayes , are only in liberty & glory ; dreaming pleasantly in thy dark mind of ease , rest , peace and familiarity with the dreadful God before thy time , damning down the rough , severe , troublesome , terrible , trembling spirit , doctrine , and Ministry of the Quakers , to thee ward , and thy serpentine generation of Vipers , that would fain flee the wrong way , when ye are warned thereof , from the newes of a wrath yet to come , to your lifelesse Formes , and fig-leaves , and false biding-places , sandy sickle foundations , literal lurking-holes , fained pretences , bare Bible bulwarls , selfish Fastings , Prayers , Praisings , Preachings , misty , empty , pithlesse and poor Professions , as a Doctrine of Devils , as a ministration wherein either fictitiously , or rather really they are acted , & surpriz'd by the Devil with trembling in their holy services , Ex. 1 S.I. as they said of Iohn that came Fasting and Reproving . Iudging and Threatning , laying an Axe to the root of their fair leafy tree , and flourishing formal prosessings of the old Prophets Words , and Writings , and pretences to Abraham as his Children , and Moses as his Disciples , and the Scripture as the Scribes and Openers of it ; and telling of wrath to come upon them , and unquenchable fire to burn them up as Chass , & this man hath a Devil , away with him , give us a Ministry that will speak comfortably to Ierusalem , Seers that will see better things for Sion , that shall answer the Messengers of the Nations , that enquire of them , the Lord hath founded Sion , 't is Babylon that is to be confounded ; O ye Quakers , ye Seers flee ye far away hence to Rome , to Papists , Iesuites , Iewes , Turks , Heathens , ( among whom many Quakers have been , but few or none of our Chimney-corner Church-men that I know of ) but come not hence with your Plumb-line , thundring words of Iudgement laid to the line , and Righteousnesse to the Plummet , and laying waste the High Places of Israel , and the Sanctuaries of Israel with the Sword of the Lord ; this our Land of Israel ought not to bear these words : 't is disturbance , tumultuousnesse , and Conspiracy against the Pious Magistracy , and the Godly Ministry in the midst of it : Prophesie no more such rough things at Bethel , they are not right things here , Prophesie to us Placentia , Prophesie smooth things [ alias Deceits ] we are the Preists of Bethel , the house of God. Amos 7.7 , &c. we are the Ministry of the reformed Churches , we are the Well heads and feed at the Fountains , from whence Souls draw all their Refreshment ; we are the Doctors , Deans , Principals , Provosts , Presidents , Wardens , Masters of Magdalene , Christ-Church , Iesus , Trinity , Emmanuel , and such like Christian Colledges and Halls , the Religious Nursing Fathers to the Nursing Mothers themselves that are [ alias ought to be ] the very Nurseries of Learning and true Religion : If ye come to us with a Word from the Lord , come not in your wonted trembling postures , and obstreperous horrible vociferation , wherewith ye dreadfully found it out throw our Streets , Cities , and Temples , know the Lord , * as if we were without God in the World ; Prophesie no more ye Fanaticks to us in your pretended movings by the Spirit , if ye do , ye must bear and take the shame of the Stocks , or the Cage , or the Whipping-Post , and a Passe to the place from whence ye came , or the pulling off your Robe with the Garment , or the stopping of your Mouth with stones , and the Pumps , and Mire , and Dirt , or such like , Mic. 2.6 , 7 , 8. But vers . 11. if a man walk in a Spirit of Falshood , do Lye , & will Prophesie to us of wine & strong drink , Ease , Pleasure , Peace with God in our sins , impossibility of being purged from them till we die ; and of Salvation and Iustification of us ( by the Example of David ) while under the guilt of Murder and Adultery , and of Profits and Preferments , and more Maintenance for a Godly Ministry , that suppose Gain to be Godliness , let him come , he is a Gospel Minister , he shall even be the Prophet among our present Seers , & gain-getting Priests , false Prophets , and foolish People . But alas poor man , thou art far enough from the New Testament or Covenant yet , which is a Gospel , a Covenant of Light , which thou art so far from , that thou fightest against it ; thou thinkest thy Judgement is over past , and the Old Testament a thing that thou hast learned long ago ; but thou art not come so near to the sharp Paedagogy of it yet as thou must do , so far art thou from the glorious Liberties of the New ; Thy words are true enough , the Word under the New comes in a way of more Liberty and Glory , but it s no newes to hear High Priests speak Truths which themselves know not ; thou art at best but an Old Testament Talker of the New , and one that 's come truly yet under the Tuition of neither ; As for the New , the Word comes under it in Liberty and Glory , but not to Old Testament Spirits , Doctors , Scribes , and Pharisees , they see not clearly so much as Moses face , much lesse the Glory of God in the face of Iesus : Condemnation is yet to come from Christ himself first to such as these , as well as from Moses & Iohn , yea Christ hims●lf ( whose friendliness to Publicans and Sinners , as a Physitian , was found fault with by such Friday fasting Pharisees as this Age is filled with , as much as Iohns Austerenesse ) was found in Iohns rough Spirit , Camels hair Garment , and astonishing Appearance to them , that went about to Murder him in his inward Ministry and Testimony within themselves ; and then they said of him too , as of Iohn , Thou hast a Devil , Ioh 8. Ah poor Nursing Fathers and Mothers , Vniversally Erring , Vniversity Seducers , poor seducing Priests , and seduced People ! notwithstanding the Glorious Liberty and Gloriousnesse of the Gospel Times , that ye are glorying in ( in a Dream ) that ye live under , ye must most assuredly find a Condemning , Iudging , Terrifying fiery flaming Law laying hold on your Consciences , and finding you out , and the Sword of the Lord entering into your Souls , and the Wrath of the Lord rending your very heart-strings a sunder , and dread , terrour , and trembling surprizing you Hypocritical sinners in Sion , before ever ye shall come to know the true Liberty or Glory of the Gospel , which is the Image and Glory of God , brought forth among you ; yea , judgement is already laid to the line , and Rigeteousnesse to the Plummet , and the Hail is falling , that will sweep away your Refuges of Lyes , and the storm , that will overflow your hiding places , and break and disinable your supposed Covenant and Agreement with Death and Hell , as if your judgement were passed over by the Lord , and none of that could come near you ; and your Bed will be found too short for you to rest on , and your Covering too narrow to wrap your selves in from the Wrath of God , the power of whose wrathful displeasure shall make your Mount Sier shake like Sinai , before ever ye come near to the sight of that glorious Rest that the Saints ly down in on Mount Sion . Now as to that other new found Phrase of Fanaticks ; These Fanaticks , the Fanaticks of this time , our Fanaticks Fanatical Quakers , Fanatical Souls , Fanatical Enthusiasts , Fanatical Knaves , Fanatical Anti-scripturists ; and * under which ever and anon , yea so oft , that I may say , Ferè numquam non , thou soamest out ( as thy fellows do ) that froth , filth , and falshood , which floats about in thy foolish vain Spirit against the Quakers in gross , as against a furious , distracted , mad , crack-brain'd kind of men , that ( for so those Terms signifie , as used by thee ) pretend to Visions , Revelations , Illuminations , Inspirations , the Spirit of Prophesie , and such like ; but are ( Reapse ) stark besides themselves , and bereft of their very wits and senses . As new a nick-Name as 't is to this Age , this is no other , then what all the Prophets of God were entertained with in the several seasons , wherein God sent them out , by the many false Prophets that were Coaetaneous with them , and therefore nibil novi , no new business to such as are not blind ; He is but meanly skill'd in the Scriptures who hath not yet learn'd from thence , That the Prophets by whom God spake , and by whose Ministry be mu●tiplied Visions , and used Similitudes , as Hos. 12.10 ▪ were ever counted Deceivers , as the snare of a Fowler in all their wayes , that the true Prophet was a fool , and the spiritual man , or man of the spirit , Mad , Hos. 9.7 , 8. and hatred alwayes in the House of his God ; And that Gods People ( by meer profession ) rose up against them , as against an Enemy , and ( as now the same Generation of Holy Hypocrites do , both in Old England and in New ) pull'd off their Robes , and their Garments from them ( to whip and scourge them sometimes , as Seditious and Disturbers ) that passe by securely , as men most averse from War , and streitned the spirit of the Lord , saying , Prophesie not so such as Prophesied in his Name and Power , and putting them to shame if they did ; when if a man would walk in the wind of his own Invention , and Lye falsly , and Prophesie to them of ●elly Ohear , of Wine , and of strong Drink , even he should be own'd a Prophet by that People , Mic 2.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. And that Ioshua the true High Priest and his fellows , even Christ and the Children that God had given him , were as men wondred at , were set as signes to be spoken against , even to the house of Jacob , from whom he hid his face , and their peepers and mutterers out of their own familiar spirits , to the unbelieving Despisers , that wonder and perish , for signes and for wonders from the Lord of Host that dwelleth in Mount Sion , Isa. 8.17 , 18. Zach. 3.8 . Luke 2.34 . Act. 13.40 , 41. Yea , I. O. hath read his own Book ore but by the halves if he do not learn this Lesson out of it himself , pag. 58 , 59 , 61 , 62. that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divinely inspired men , whose Doctrine was to have been received as from God , who sent them , and in whose Name they spake , though but Herdsmen , and of mean Occupation , were yet generally rejected upon innumerable prejudices that attended the Truth they spake arising from the personal infirmities , and supposed Interests of them that delivered it ; as Amos 7. Ier. 43.2 , 3. Ioh 9.29 . Act. 24.5 . and that what with these things , and chiefly the Peoples being so eminently perplexed with false Prophets , both as to their number and subtilty , that they could not well discern aright between Gods Word and that which was only pretended so to be , and so became guilty of unbelief and rebellion against God , not submitting to what they spake in his Name , it alwayes so sell out that scarce any Prophet that spake in the Name of God , had any Approbation from the Church ( of dead stones ) in whose dayes he spake , Matth. 5.12.21.33 . to 38 ▪ Act. 7.52 . Thus much I.O. may learn from these words , which are mostly his own , that it was alwayes so heretofore , and how it should be otherwise in the latter dayes of this formal Christian Church called Christendom , then he sayes it was in the latter daves of that Iewish Church , both which National Churches say they are Iewes , Christians , and are not , but lye , and are the Synagogue of Satan , he cannot see , that will not purposely look besides the Scripture , which intimates to us a necessity of the innumerable multitude of false Prophets , by which People must be perplexed from submitting to the Testimony of Gods true Ones , that now go forth from him to witnesse against the other , since it sayes so long since as it was written , that many Antichrists and false Prophets were even then already gone forth into the world , which as , according to Christs praediction , Matth. 24. they then ( and not now , as our Seers say , who can't see themselves for their selves ) began to breed , so have ever since spawn'd themselves by a successive generation of the same seed of blind Seers , that suppose Gain to be Godliness , in such Myriads over the face of the whole Earth , that he must even go out of the Christian World at least , that will find any clean Corner where these croaking Frogs , and unclean Creatures , and costly Caterpillars are not crawling . So then by reason of the many subtilties and serpentine insinuations of the many false Prophets in these last dayes of the Gentile Christian Church ( in name , not nature ) 't is now as 't was ever of old , that the true Prophets of the Lord , whom he reproves the other by , are look'd on as Fanaticks , fools and mad bare brain'd fellows , 2 King 9.11 . Acts 26.24 . that do but pretend and seem to themselves to see that they do not , and make themselves Prophets , and are often punish'd , as a sort of giddy guides , with stocks , stones , prisons , and such kind of rough Reproofs , as the false Prophets , the Shemaiahs or Dreamers , which speak lying words in the Lords Name , which he commanded them not , suggest as most surable for the true Seers , to the Officers , whether Vice Chancellors , Chief Priests , or Earthly Powers , that are ( as the Beast that bears her is ) the Subordinate willing Executioners of the Clergy , or Whores wicked will , as in the letter , from the false Prophet , to the Chief Priest against Ieremiah of old , Ierem. 29.26 , 27. The Lord hath made thee Priest in the stead of Jehojadah the Priest , that ye should be Officers in the House of the Lord , for every one that is mad , and maketh himself a Prophet , that thou shouldest put him in Prison , and in the Stocks : Now therefore why hast thou not reproved Jeremiah of Anathoth , which maketh himself a Prophet unto you ? &c. As for thee I.O. I know not but that thou art the first that fastned that wonted foul Name of Fanaticks upon the People of God , called Quakers , in these dayes , by thy fighting against them , and falsly accusing them , as fit for their Frauds to be punished with Prisons , &c. under that Name so over-frequently used by thee ; for which it hath since ( justly enough as from God ) befallen Thee and thy fellow mongril Presbyter-Independents ( Haman-like , who hang'd high upon the Gallowes of his own preparing ) to be whipt smartingly by that more smoakie sort of Locusts , who are in the dark behind thee , with this Rod of thy own gathering ; for now by that Papal , Prelatical-Priesthood , that hope ( but their hopes are as-thine , and those of all Hypocrites are , as the giving up of the Ghost ) to over-top you all , even ye and all Sectaries that side not , or ride not with them back to Rome , are branded by that same Name Fanaticks of thy own faining , which is become the common Charesteristical of all , but either Romish or Canterburian Catholicks ; and thou thy self perhaps under that Notion of a Sectary , and account of a Fanatick , as well as on some others , art justly ( Iudas-like , who betrayed the Truth ) detruded down from that place of Preheminence , from whence thou prated'st out that Preheminent piece of Latine lack-Light against the Quakers , and according to Psal. 96.25 , 26 , 27 , 28. Psal. 109. 7. to 21. Acts 1.20 . deprived of thy dainty Deanery , and that thy Bishoprick , or Episcopal Office hath another taken ; and like as he did Doeg ( the Edomite ) Psal. 52.1 , to ult . for the same Dog-like doings , viz. devising Mischiefs , being as a sharp Razor to the Saints , deceitful workings , loving evil , lying , devouring words more then good , and rather then to speak righteously , hath God pluck'd thee away from thy Prerogatives in that ( falsly called ) Christs-Church , thou was 't lately Head of ; and if yet thou shalt ( as perhaps thou mayest ) happen ever to recover to any such outward Lordlinesse again over Christs true Church , and Gods own Heritage , who ( come Summer heat , or Winter storms ) will still stand Green as an Olive in the House of God ; yet for all thy now flouting at them as Fanaticks , and their way as Madnesse , that day cometh on a pace spoken of , Wisd. 4. 15. & 5.1 . ad sinem , wherein those righteous Ones thou wrongest shall stand out in great boldnesse before the faces of all such as thee , who hast afflicted them , and made no account of their labours , and ye shall be amazed at the strangenesse of their Salvation , so far beyond all ye looked for , then repenting and groaning for anguish of Spirit shall ye say within your selves , This is he whom we had in derision , and as a Proverb of reproach ; We fools cou● his life madnesse , and his end without honour : How is he numbred among the Children of God , and his Lot is among the Saints ? Therefore have we erred from the way of Truth , and the Light of Righteousnesse hath not shinned to us , and the Sun of Righteousnesse rose upon us ; We wearied our selves in the way of wickednesse and destruction , gone throw Desarts where there lay no way , but as for the way of the Lord we have not known it : What hath Pride profited us ? and what hath Riches with all our vaunting brought us ? &c. Thus far as to those Two Archi-Pseudo-Prophetical Titles by thee I.O. tauntingly imposed upon the People , who at this day hear the Word of the Lord and Tremble at his Word , viz. That of Quaking Fanaticks , or in thy Sensu Composito , Fanatical Quakers . Now I come to those thy many other misprisions , and mis-representations of us under the Terms of poor , deluded , foolish , Knaves , Crowes , Vagrant Rogues , or Vagabonds , Enthusiasts , Locusts , and such like . J.O. The clamour of every Fanatical Knave , Ex. 3. S. 26. Epist. pag. 28. poor , deluded , Fanatical souls amongst us called Quakers , for the instruction of the younger sort , against whose abominations I have subjoyned the Theses in the close of the other Treatises . * To the Instruction of the younger Schollers , who , intending the accutenesse of their Wit to the study of the holy Letters or Scriptures , have neither list nor leasure to follow these Crows ( the Quakers ) up and down , pelting at them with Tiles and Dirt , this shew of new Fanaticism refuted , which swarms even every where , accompanied with strange Devils , is Dedicated , so Ex. 3. S. 2.4 . Fanatical Enthusiasts for their Enthusiams ; so Ex. 3. S. 19. Locustas hasce cum primum ex sumo purei prodierint , these Locusts ( the Quakers ) when they came first out of the smoak of the Pit ; so Ex. 3. S. 17. Errones , Vagrant Rogues , or Vagabonds . Reply 1. Thy Iudgement of us in general , which is mearly that of mans-Day , which is the night , and a very small matter to us , will prove a matter of moment , that will fall heavy on thy self at last , when the Judgement of God , which we know is according to Truth , and is against thee , comes upon thee , and all thy Iudgement before thy time , and evil speakings of whom , and what thou utterly know'st not ; And as for us , if we judge thee again for many of the same things of which we are judged by thee , yet our judgement is just and true , and not our of its due time and place , and will stand ore thy head for ever , being passed in the light , and day , and Spirit of God , in which the Saints are to Judge the World , and the spiritual man discerns the Animal man and his matters , but is not discerned by him : But as to this of Knave , it savouring much of that Billingsgate Rhetorick ( which T.D. hath so much of , who called L.H. at his own door in Douer — he knows what , and ye sayes he is not able to match G.W. at it ) to render Reviling for Reviling Terms I shall forbear , and be silent here , giving I O. my Goliah-like 〈◊〉 , ( who conflatis naribus inflans , sets the Saints so much at his heels , and ( to use his own words ) Gigantaeo quodam fastu E'atus , like some Son of Anak looks on them as Grashoppers , disgracing and disdaining the whole kind or Species of the Quakers , what he is able , sometimes as poor , deluded , foolish , and yet sometimes again as more Knave , then Fool ) leave to overcome me herein ; for though I can truly say ( having been at the Popes Palace which stands in Monte Caballino ) that fonte labra Prolui Caballino ; yet haud unquam me Prophetam somniasse tam altum memini , ut Repentè sic Rabula prodirem . Reply 2. Thou talkest much here , and at the front and sag-end also of thy English Epistle in Commendation of thy Iunior Students valuing and studying the Holy Scriptures more then any thou knowest , and of their bending the best of their wits that way ; how ye value the Scriptures wee 'l see by and by , but till ye study the light and spirit more then ye do , which the letter came from , as ye are yet at best , so at best ye will become but obtusè acuti homunciones , sharp-witted men after your own blunt fashion , who in truth are as sharp-sighted in the Mystery of the Holy Scriptures , as a very Mole is into a Milstone . Behold O thou Academical Student in Divinity , who callest the Quakers Anti-scripturists , thou art call'd the Scripturist , the Text-man , the Opener-of that Book called the Bible , which is a Book as much sealed to thy supposed learned self , as to the unlearnedst sort of men in the World , that can but barely read it , and thou art restlesse in wrestling against the Light , and restest in the dead Letter of that Law , which is Light and Life , and makest thy boast of God , as the man that knowest his will , and tryest out the things that are most excellent , being instructed no higher then so thy self , and taking on thee to instruct all out of that life-less Letter , which is all thy Law , ( and yet much more then thou livest by ) and art confident that thou thy self art a guide of the blind , a light of them , which are in darknesse , an instructer of the foolish , poor , deluded Quakers , a Teacher of Babes , which hast a form of formal Knowledge , and of external Truth , as it is in that meer Letter of the Law , but thou ( being enmity to the light the Quakers live in ) art rather a rash Reprover of the things that are most excellent , a blind Guide , a dark Lanthorne , an ignis fatuus , a fleshly , foolish , Instructer , an untaught Teacher , that must yet come to be taught out of the mouths of Babes and Sucklings , out of which the Lord is now ordaining strength that shall stop the Lyars mouth , and still the stout Enemy and Avenger ; and from the stammering lips that thou standest amazed and astonished at , as uttering non-sence ( in thy non-sensical Nodel ) shalt thou stoop to learn the Soul-saving Truth , or else be left to perish in thy envious enmity against it in thy damnable darknesse , in thy wilful blindnesse , obstinate unbelief , and unparallel'd ignorance of it for ever , as the Pharisaical Iew was , whose case this was before thee , Rom. 2.17 . to the end ; And though thou teachest others , yet till thou teach thy self , alias learn at thy own measure of Christs Light , that teaches thee in thy own Conscience to know thy self more , and live more like Christ's Teachers , then thou dost , thou shalt bring as few to God as thou hast done , who hast left all that have learnt of thee yet , where thou thy self yet art , viz. in sin , and not believing thou canst ever be out on 't ( as they and we tell thee ( truly ) thou mayst ) while thou livest , or till the World to come , where the Popes purgatory is which ( as truly ) thy self deniest , and shalt bring men as near to God , who is Light , as those who are left out of his Kingdom , which is Light , in the Darknesse , which is the Devils kingdom ; Thou teachest other 's should not commit Adultery , but thou art the Adulteresse , and Imperious Whorish Woman , with whom all the Kings and People in the Anti-Christian World have committed Folly and Fornication , and , bewitched with thy Sorceries , have run a Whoring after from the Lord. Thou teachest another should not Steal , and professest to abhorre Idols , but thou art that Sacred Thief , that committest that sacrum furtum , that fine sort of Sacriledge , and stealest the words , which thou sellest for Money when thou hast done , after 10 , 20 , 30 , or 40 shillings a Sermon , out of the true Prophets Writings , and Fathers , and old Authors ; and so what thou learnedst in thy Accidence , when a School-Boy in the Countrey , thou makest use , and witnessest the Truth of , now thou art become of an University Scholler , a Clerical Country-man again , viz. in legendis veteribus Authoribus proficies , in Reading of old Authors ( for so many Doctors do out of their Notes in the Pulpit ) thou shalt Profit ; for profit thou dost thy self in outward Goods , but not the People in inward Goodnesse , who are generally in all Parishes left as ignorant and prophane , as the Priest finds them , when he is called from them , either by death , or some Deanery , or higher Divine degree of spiritual dignity . Thou makest thy boast of the Letter , but throw breaking the Letter thou dishonourest God and his Ministry , while thou dost more docere facienda , then facere docenda ; and as Accute and Accurate a Curate as thou art of Souls , thou art not quite so useful as a Wherstone , * which serves to sharpen other things , though it self remain blunt and obtuse ; but thou that pretendst to keep the Key of Knowledge and the Kingdom , art neither quick to enter thy self , nor sufferest , much lesse servest to quicken , so much as thou slug'st them that would , by the best thou dost thou mak'st thy Converts no better then thy self , who art not yet so good as thou shouldst be ; and in thy fighting against the Quakers , who would have thee but so , as thou oughtest to be , art not one jot better then worse then nought it self . And if thou servest to sharpen at all , it is more to make men more keen , whose Teeth are enough on edg at them already , against the Saints and the Truth they dwell in , and by thy lying words , which are as Swords and sharp Arrows that way , to reach them , that attend to thy contemptuous Tattle , to use their Tongues , after the Example of thine , as sharp Razors , to speak proud things , proudly , disdainfully , and contemptously against the Righteous . Reply 3. As to thy term of Enthusiasts , or Expecters of Inspiration by their inward Speculation , I say that thou , who art gone forth of thy self to look for it without thy self in the outward observations , shalt wait long enough before thou there find the Kingdom , which is within thee , whether ever thou come into it yea or nay , for it comes not to any of our cryers Lo here , lo there . Reply 4 ▪ As to that of Locusts and Vagabonds , that day is now dawn'd upon the Earth in the late benighted Horizon of this Nation , in which we are seen , and see both who , and from whence the Locusts are , and when they came up out of the Pit , and how that these Locusts , and Caterpillars , and Canker-worms , even the slumbering Shepherds of the King of Assyria , as Nah. 3.15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. whose King is the Angel of the bottomless Pit , whose Name is Abaddon , and Apollyon , the destroyer of Souls , Rev. 9.1 , to 12. have crowned themselves , and made themselves many , and spread themselves over the whole earth as Grassehoppers for multirude , and camped about in all hedges in the cold day , and have spoiled and devoured , and had power to sting men as Scorpions , and have made their wickednesse to pass over all men continually , and must when the Sun of Righteousnesse ariseth , ( as now he doth , with healing in his wings on all that fear his Name ) flee away , and their place not be known where they are ; and thou shewest thy self to be yet darkened with that smoke they have for Ages and generations ascended out of , that deemest those Locusts to be the Quakers , who are rising up in the light and power of the truth of God , to the dispelling of that smoky fog of errours they have lyen hid in . Reply 5. We see also who are the Vagabonds in the sight of God , even such as with Cain are fled from his Light in their consciences , and gone out from his presence into the Land of Nod where they are busie in building Cities , and ●air outward dwellings for themselves , but have no habitation in God ; and not the Quakers , who for the Gospels sake chuse to have , with the Apostles of old , no certain dwelling place upon earth , 1 Cor. 4.11 . though else as capable to have many as your selves , who have oft many more earthly homes and houses , then men are capable to hold in a way of honesty . Reply 6. And though thou stilest us Crowes , yet such as are not in the blacknesse of darknesse may see we come not so near to that carrion Creature either in colour or conditions , as such do as so account us , who never yet put their spectacles on but when their eyes are abroad and gone from home ; But who ere are the Crowes , its easie enough to be seen who are the Magpies and Parrets , whose pratlings and pratings are , as from no higher principle then mens teachings , and imitation of words themselves know not the true meaning of , so for no higher an end but barely to get something for the body and the belly , as Rom. 17. v. 17 , 18. which usually is the chief Church-man and Grand Senior among the Greedy Clergy , and the oldest Master of Arts † in most Universities and Countreys . Reply 7. And whereas thou speakest as if 't is not worth the while for thy Junior Students to follow those Crowes ( the Quakers ) so as to stand pelting and flinging at them with dirt and Tile-shards ; In that sayest thou truly indeed ; Whereupon ( I say ) those Scripture studying Schollars to whose use thou devotest these thy Theological Disputations against the Quakers , in a strange Language by thy own confession , might be easily better but likely not worse busied , then they ordinarily are , whilest what with stones and Tobacco-pipes , dirt and mud and such like materials they are assaulting the Quakers in their ( elsewise ) quiet meetings in their two nurseries of Learning , ill manners and Irriligion , viz. both Oxford and Cambridge : And 't were more worth the while for both Vicechancellors and Mayors to Bocardo some of them for these and worse matters , for examples ●ake to other rude Rabbies , then to connive at , countenance and encourage them in it , as some have lately done ; but alas , that the Juniors throw stones , mud and dirt with their hands , no marvel , when such a Senior as I. O. is throwing mire and dirt against the Quakers with his inky crow quill , and pelting at them the best paper-pellets he has with his Parret-like pen ; and no wonder to a wise man , that from the greatest to the least ye are all bedirtying the Quakers , since the wicked are alway like a troubled Sea that never is at rest , but ever casting up mire and dirt in the face of Truth . Reply 8. As to thy pitiful Terms to us of Poor , deluded , foolish , unlearned ; 'T is true , as thou slightingly sayest , the Quakers are for the most part poor in this World , and , as T. D. flings it also in our faces , having no great visible estates , but rich in Invisibles , in that faith ye are out of , by which they stand Heirs of that Kingdom ye have no inheritance in till ye believe in the Light ye yet hate ; and they seem as Poor every way else , as having nothing in another World , to your Laodicean Lordships , who are boasting your selves in your Profession of that ye are out of the Possession of , as Rich and encreas'd with goods and in need of nothing , yet are they making many Rich by their Ministry , when your selves ( as unwilling as you are to know it ) are not onely poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind , and naked , but impoverishing all that have to do with , or that ever trade much with you , and maintaining all in the same ( inward ) beggarly condition with your selves ; so that their souls never thrive into the life ye sometimes talk of , into the thing , which is the end of all outward Ministry , or into any better then barenesse , and seannesse , and b'indnesse , and barrennesse it self , while they fit under the shadow of your Ministry , whilest thousands in this Nation that have been turned to the light , and the Truth within , by means of the Quakers Ministry , which a taking heed to within is the end of , are come to witnesse the Word of Christ , which your letter is but a witnesse of , dweling Richly in themselves , and with the Spouse , Cant. 3.2 , 3 , 4. that sought her Beloved in your broad wayes once , wherein she never found him , being passed away from you Watchmen , who beat and smite and wound them for so doing , Cant. 5.7 . have in the narrow way , which ye have no mind to walk in , found him whom their souls loved . Ye often tell such as Relinquish your Ministeries , that ye have been a means of opening their eyes , and think strange that they cannot abide under your Teachings , as well as heretofore ; but were it as true , as ye do but deem it so to be , that your pains had prov'd so profitable , as to open the eyes that now see , ye could not but see of your selves , that while they abode in blindnesse they abode quietly under you blind guides , but when once they came to see , they saw they were to abide there no longer . Ye call your Universities the eyes and the Wel springs , heads , fountains , mothers and nurseries of Learning and True Religion ; but the Lord is judging those filthy Fountains , and the Rivers that run out of them , and turning their waters into blood , and giving them blood to drink , of which also they are worthy , yea and righteous is the Lord in judging , for they have ever shed the blood of Saints and Prophets , and strove to root out the True Religion , that is Pure and undefiled from off the earth , and have nourisht up Illiteracy it self , if that onely be learning , as in Scripture sence it is , 2 Pet. 3.1 Cor. 2.1 , 2. to know Christ and the Scripture by the Spirit , and have headed all men in their hatred of the Truth , and been mothers of most of that mischief that is now befalling all Nations where they are , and the Wells from whence those Legions of learned unlearned ones , to whom the vision of all is as a Book sealed , have sprang , and to whom all people have leaned as their Leaders , till they have utterly lost the way to life , and the Right eyes of those Idol-shepherds , which the sword of the Lord now comes upon till it be night unto them , that they shall not divine , and till they sha'l be utterly darkned . And this I declare not as one that am utterly against that outward Inferiour furniture ▪ or lower sort of literature , whereon ye live and feed till ye surfet , and for having but a little of which ( for some , that pretend to very much , have not overmuch of that , and as much abuse , that little they have more in defiance , then in defence of Truth ) ye Reckon on your selves as exceedingly inriched ; nay , if most of you had more of it then you have , it were not much the worse , would you use it better then you do ; and were ye as Rich and learned ( as ye are in that ) in the best kind of learning , which the light within leads to , and ye fight against , and the measure of Gods gift of grace in your own hearts , that brings Salvation with it to all that submit to be taught by it , teaches ( viz. ) to deny ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , and to liue godly , righteously and soberly in this present world , as little of which learning and life is to be found among young Academical self . Admirers , as among any people upon earth , among whom there is , whether magna or parva cura linguarum , major or minor Artium , I will not say , nor is it much material , so long as what is of the Lord most expected lies most neglected , but I may safely say not maxima , but minima pietatis . But I speak it as one not a little lamenting over our Nurseries of learning and Religion , and not a little grieved to see how little of God and godlinesse in the power of it is either seen or sought after by those Seers and formal Seekers , but those of outward letters and writings , whereof some are as bad rotten , poysonsome , false and foolish , as othersome are good , wholsome , true , sound and solid ; in the best of which yet without the Light , which universally they hate , and look askew at , the life of God can never be found : and to see how little yet our Nations supposedly learned leaders have learn'd of that Mistery Christ Iesus within themselves , whereby to become any other then Ignes fatui , or false Leaders to the whole Land , which hath been wholly caused to erre by them , and hath been led of them to its own destruction . Yea , this lamentable , and shall be for a lamentation of lamentations , with which I must make a little out here to lament against you O ye nursing Mothers ( so called ) to the Church of God , both in this Nation and throughout Christendom , that there is none among all the sons , which to the vast expending and exhausting of her earthly treasure , and the very Quintessence of all her carnal things upon them , both in her Vniversities and in all her Parishes , when remov'd from thence , she hath nourished , and that is found able by the Spirit , which onely does it , to minister spiritual things truly to her , or in requital of her who hath so inriched them for it the other way , to enrich her with any true , lasting heavenly treasure , or to measure and tale back again to her , even as well in her Protestant and more reformed , as in her Popish and more deformed States , any other then such Trash , Wood , Hay and Stubble as is now falling before the fire . And that by all the most Learned labours of her most Learned Rabbies , Doctors and Students in Theology , and Clergy of what sort soever , the rest of her children call'd Christians have not learn'd so much as to know Christ and themselves , much lesse Christ in themselves , so far as make them honest , true , holy , just , sober , meek , pure , loving , gentle , merciful , pitiful peaceable , patient , temperate , and after his own Image , which is the end of all Learning , Ministries , Ministrations and doings that pertain ad intra , and ad extra too , to Christian Religion , which Christ or Image of God ad intra , and ad extra also who are not come to witnesse in and on themselves , know not yet Christ the Mystery , the hope of Glory , and cannot prove themselves upon due examination to be in the faith , or any other in the sight of God then Reprobates . And that by and from her Priests and her Prophets , whose own eyes are not yet annointed with eye-salve , that they may see , that have took upon them to be her Supream Guides into goodnesse , and took many millions of money for many Ages and generations upwards to make other men learned in the Truth , to direct them into Righteousnesse and Holinesse , the hands of evil d●ers have been strengthened , so that none hath returned perfectly from his wickednesse , but such evil fruits , as darknesse , Ignorance , blindnesse , bloodinesse , uncleanness , drunkennesse , and all sorts of ungodlinesse and profanenesse is gone forth into all her Lands : So that a little of that honest learning how to live Godly , righteously and honestly in this present World , that is now found in abundance among poor , plain Countrey Rusticks and Russet Rabbies ( as some University Doctors and Divines ( witnesse Doctor Featley ) have derisorily denominated the Mechanicks , that meddle with expounding Scripture ) amounts to more then all that great learning , little equity , lesse honestly , and least godlinesse , that is found among the nursing Fathers and nursing Mothers of them all . And this is Lamentable and a Lamentation with which I must here lament , not onely over all Christendom in general , but over these Protestant parts of it also , where Popery is so abjured , that men spend their money on their pretended Feeders for that which is not the bread of Life , but light heartlesse branne , that is measured out to them at a high rate too , the Lord knows , out of the barren brain of their bruitish Pastors , who have not sought the Lord in his own light , but at the most in that meer Letter that gives not the Life , of which Letter they are the Ministers ( for means too ) and not of the Spirit ; Whereupon ( as the Lord sayes , Ier. 10.21 , 22. ) They shall not prosper , but all their flocks must be scattered , in order to which , the noyse of the bruit is already come , and a great commotion out of the North to lay their Cities desolate as a den of Dragons . That ( howbeit their deluders cry out against the Quakers , who freely undelude men , as poor deluded , fanatical , &c. yet the poor people are most miserably couzened , cheated and deluded by their blind Guides , that see little themselves into the marrow and mystery of spiritual matters , and not standing in the Counsel of God given out by his light in their own consciences , never come to hear his Word coming to them within from his own mouth , and not hearkening to what God himself saith in them , as the true Prophets did , Hab. 3.1 . never come into the true vision of him , or his Will , but run and say he saith , because they find it written he said so , or so to others , when they never heard him speaking it in themselves , and so never profit the people at all , as God said of old such should not . They sit as the old Pharisaical Scribes did , who heard not at any time the voyce of God nor saw his shape , in the twi-light of their own imaginations searching the Scriptures , and looking in them for the eternal Life which onely testifie of it , but come not unto Christ , in whom onely they Testifie it is ( for in him is the life , ( say they ) and his Life is the light of men ) that they may have his life in themselves , and from it onely Minister unto others ; and so such food for their souls , and Rayment , and Riches , and Gold , and eye-salve as they have , which is none of that which Christ ( whose light within or inward Councel they reject against themselves ) Counsels all Laodicean like self-corceited Angels and Churches to buy of him , such lifelesse stuff they give ( I should say ) sell , in as good words and fair speeches as they can put it off withal to simple people for outward Food and Rayment , and Gold , and Silver , and Riches , as they have , pertaining to the Belly and the Body . So the Bodies of Shepherds are oft full and fat ; But the Souls of poor Sheep pine and starve , for all that . And that the Souls of poor people should ever come possibly to be made any Richer towards God then they are , while they stand under the droppings onely of the lips of such Linguists , as are no higher learned then their nursing Mothers teach them , I cannot expect , if nil dat quod in se non habet be true , sith the chief spirituals that those spiritual men have themselves , who learn to be Teachers of Religion to others , no where but at the Vniversities , are but carnal , natural , animal , literal ; such as without the light and spirit and living Word of God within ( for that in the name of his fellow-Students there I.O. to whom its vouchsafed of God ( sayes he ) but ( say I ) of the Devil so to do , fights against as fiercely as he can ) is obtained out of many Books and Writings , the best of which is the Bible , and the naked letter of it , by the improvement of a meer animal understanding , which the letter of the Bible it self also sayes perceives not the things of the spirit . Nor can I expect as the case is with them , that they themselves , who there are taught to be Gospel ▪ Teachers should attain to any more then such a shallow speculation and thin external Theory of those things as they have , or should ever enter into the depths of Gods Kingdom , whilest in the depth of the Serpents subtilty they are beguiled so far from a single hearted search after the Truth in the simplicity thereof , as it is from Jesus , the light of the World , by the beams thereof made manifest in their own hearts , that , taking it for granted aforehand that all that , and no other then that is Truth , which is held forth and told for Truth in the times of their Residence at those foresaid Fountains , which are not steadily running one way neither , but to and fro as the Tide turns , and running several wayes at several seasons , they stave off all that as Heresie at a distance , which is handed to them any other ways ; no more doubting , but that that must be error , which at the Well-heads of Divinity is pleaded against , then they do that that is Truth they there plead for ; so as Is qui nil dubirat nil capit inde boni , these confident , blind , bold , implicit-faith't Iuniors that visit the Academies for this end , that they may become for a livelihood Preachers of the Faith to others ; never doubting that to be the true Faith , and Truth , which they find professed in their times , set themselves on work to study how to defend it at a venture against all Hereticks , before they have either found or felt it to be Truth within themselves , and stand steadfastly Tempered still according to the present Temper of the Grand Seniors of their Respective Nurseries , who Temper themselves ever according to the Temper of the Times , and the Rulers that happen to be in them ; whence it comes to passe , for the most part , that as there 's like Prince like Priest , so like Priest like People in these Northern Islands , where after some certain time of standing and studying in the Vniversity , these hasty Hirelings run abroad before the word of command be given them from the mouth of the Lord , and settle themselves up and down , till the Countrey swarmes with them , like so many Locusts , successively supplying the waste places of such as either die in Parishes , or depart from one to another , where there 's a bigger Boon , ne detur vacuum , that there be no place void or empty at any hand , which is not more an abhoring to nature in general , in rerum natura , in the fabrick of the Universe , then 't is to these natural mindes , in bujusmodi Rerum naturâ , in the fabrick of their Vniversity affairs . And sometimes so do they hasten on their own heads , to be Prophets and Pastors for their own ends and livings sake , upou which account , being thereby capable of some Parsonage or Ecclesiastical emolument , much more then for service sake to the Gospel , many younger Brothers and poor mens Sons are sent there to be educated , that before their haughty heads are halt hatcht into any solid understanding of either themselves or the Truth of God , or their hearts so much as warmed into any way of wisdom from above , they run like a company of Green guls with shells on their heads , and sow themselves under the earth ( for heaven they see not ) in such seats and soils as best like them , and plant themselves ( for plants of the heavenly Fathers planting they are not ) in Parishes , Palaces and other places , as Chaplains and Curates , and then divide , and divine out that divinity they have stor'd their heads , and common-place Books withal by stealth of study , out of the common stock of spirit stinting stuff , which like a spring , that 's never drawn drier then 't was at first , remains the same still at the Well-head , for the furnishing of all new comers ; behaving themselves so honourably , or rather onerably in their respective bounds or circuits among the people of these Nations of England , Scotland and Ireland also , whether they sayl by whole sale , even by whole Tuns at once , that more like the Pope in his Peterdom , then like Peter , who commanded the contrary , they Lord it over their stocks , so as to live upon them whether they will of no , and often without their leave , if they can be licensed elsewhere , set up their shop of books , and go out and keep market in their Parish once a week , and sell one or two of their thoughts upon some Text of Scripture by a Glasse full at a time , at the Rates of about twenty shillings a piece , and which is most Tyrannical , force people too to buy their commoditie , be it good or bad , Truth or Errout , right or wrong , honest or counterfeit , and which is worse yet , without allowing any the liberty to try it in the publick market place , or old Masse-house , where they hold it forth , whereas all other Trades-men and Shop-keepers excepting these Mystical Merchants , give all their customers leave to try their Wares and Merchandize , and leave them to their own choise , whether they will buy it or no ; And which is worse yet , when they have sold their Sermons to them , or read or said them over to them out of their notes , they take them away along with them , and leave them not to the people , who are to pay for them per force when the time comes , and , which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 illorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the prime piece of delusivenesse , perhaps sell the self-same Sermons for as much more at another place , at a funeral or some such like occasion ; whereas if any shoomaker should take the shoos , or Book-seller the Sermons , which he hath sold , and sell them to another , I know what these men , who call the Quakers Fanatical Knaves , as well as others , would quickly be ready to account of them . And whereas a man may buy a whole Bible for five shillings , they sell some one verse of it , a little set out and flourisht , and amplified with no other Trimming , but their own fallible vain thoughts upon it , for Twenty shilllings , which Bible might serve a whole Town to read in ; one chapter of which is worth Twenty of their uncertain Sermons : or if men be minded to have Sermons , these Nations are now so full of them , that for groats a-piece one may buy Twenty Printed Sermons of men , whom they count more eminent then themselves , which may serve to hear and read at home , no lesse then Twenty weeks together , one of which Sermons have more truth in them , then either Priests or People upon their Principles of non perfection of holinesse and purging from sin in this life , are like to practise as long as they live ; and till they practise what they know already , it s but labour lost , pains taken , time spent and money expended in vain to preach and hear in order to their knowing more , sith whatsoever is known and remains undone , does but adde to their condemnation . And thus not the Quakers , whom I.O. calls poor and deluded , for they grow rich in good works , though spoil'd in goods , and will never be more so spoild and deluded as they have been , but seek to save others from being deluded by men made Ministers , with Academical accomplishments and Accoutrements , who are the evil ones and Seducers that way worse and worse , rather then better and better , for all the talk● on Reformation , deceiving and deceived ; I say , not the Quakers , but the Parish people are every way impoverishr and deluded , being fed and enriched for their mony , with nothing but mens fallible words , and worthlesse thoughts , in stead of the true Living Word , and precious things of the Living God. And yet neither will these Parish people suffer themselves to be alwayes so bejaded are they are by the Rabbies that ride them to Ruine , but rather , when their eyes are a little further opened to see how they are posted on by their Priests , that love the wages of unrighteousnesse , to defie the Israel of God against the drawn sword in the hand of the Lords Angel , Messengers or Ministers , with Balaams Asse refuse to passe with them any further , and open all their mouths as one man , to rebuke the madnesse of their Prophets . And as thou I.O. sayest truly enough , Ex. 2. S. 8. of the overthrow of that Ambitious and Arrogant Crew of the Papal Clergy , so sav I in ipsissimis verbis , of the downfal of that intollerable insolency of our Protestant Clergy , that have pusht them beside the saddle , and setled themselves there in their steads . * Neither verily is man-kind become so bruitish as that they will alwaves bear those spiritual Mountebanckly cheaters , who for filthy Lucres sake against the plain Praecepts of Christ , the examples of all the Saints , the common Principles of that very Reason whereby we are men , and of that common understanding that all men have by the light within indelebly implanted in their minds , casting behind their backs the care of eternal Salvation , do endeavour by carelesse negligence to hold all men intangled in their enticing snares of Idolatry , in blindnesse and Ignorance of the Will of God and of their own duty to him As then that of the Popish Priesthood ( which thou I.O. speakest of ) will not , so neither will the solly of this Kingdom of Priests , that have more lately Lorded it in their Dominions , proceed much further , but be manifested to all men , as the others was before them both ; yea , ( as thou savest ) of thy ( so called ) poor , deluded fanatical Quakers . Fanatici , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. So say I of these poor , deluding Fantastical Anti-quakers , Fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sunt erroribus & stultitia bisce diebus notissimi quos hic inprimis aggredimur ; These Fantastical , self-conceited Seers whom I here primarily Plead against , are in these dayes most notoriously known by their errours and foolishnesse already not to a few of their own former followers , and will be to ten times as many more in the dayes that are immediately hereafter following . Thy many Taunting Terms wherein thou both belyest , flingest and quippest at the Quakers , being thus ( not in the same Taunting or Twitting way , but ) in a way of true judgement turned upon thy self and thy own fellow-flouters at them . I shall more closely examine , what thou falsely accusest us of more particularly , as concerning our deportment toward the Scriptures , whom thou falsely declarest to be so grossely opposite thereunto , as duely and deservedly to be denominated by those Terms , by which thou also miscallest us , of Fanatical Anti-scripturists , p. 147. Ep. p. 28.30 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ex. 3. S. 26. i.e. Haters of the Scripture , and to be rankt among the rudest Reproachers of them in such words of thine as are hereunder Repeated , and Replied to . I.O. Thou sayest , Satan in these dayes assaults the Sacred Truth of the Word of God in its Authority , Purity , Integrity or Perfection , especially in the poor , deluded Fanatical Souls commonly called Quakers , &c. Ep. p. 28.30 . That to this sort of men ( the Quakers ) it was not enough to joyn in with those in Ages past , who cast Reproaches on the Scriptures , and approve of all the opprobrious speeches that have been cast out against them , but they also rejoyce that the care of this matter , viz. of spoiling the holy Scriptures of ( its proper name ) that glorious Title , of the Word of God , is by Satan confer'd upon them : That they ( the Quakers ) who would seem to bear away the Bell from all , as to the stout opposing of the perfection of the Scriptures , Thou principally encounterest ; and as 't is an honour to thee , that God hath pleased to confer on thy unworthy self this Task of fighting against those enemies of his Word ( the Quakers ) so what thou shalt perform in prosecution of this function , thou oughtest to ascribe to his grace , &c † Reply . Herein thou not onely shewest thy s●l to be of that sort of men , to whom it is not enough to joyn with those in Ages past , who cast Reproaches on the hearers of the Word of God , and Tremblers at his Word , Isa. 66. 5. ( now in scorn called Quakers , and cast out by their Brethren for his Name sake , as then they were ) and to be an Approver of all the opprobrious speeches that are cast out against them by this adulterous and sinful generation , who bend their Tongues like bowes for lyes against the Truth , which lyes thou shouldest be a valiant Reprover of , but also to rejoyce that the care of this matter of fighting against the truest friends in the World to God , and his Word ( the Quakers ) and of Raising such Reproaches , false Reports , scandals and opprobrious speeches , as the Rabble of Junior Rabbies Reproach them with , is confer'd upon thee by the Devil ; for thou egregiously belyest the Quakers in this particular , who deny not , but Purely and Perfectly own all that Authority , Purity , Integrity and Perfection of the Scriptures , which the Scriptures Ascribe unto themselves , and rob it not of any proper name , or any Title at all , which by it self is either Attributed or appropriated to it self , as that of the Word of God is not , as is seen hereafter ; much lesse are they such enemies to the Word of God , or that Sacred Truth written of in the Scriptures , as thou most abusively and blasphemously belyest them to be , that thou needest to stand up , as thou dost in thy meer demi-●●●gested demications against them , for the Scriptures , and the Word of Truth , between which and the Scriptures , in which it is declared , they divide aright , so as to give its own proper name to each of these , whilst ye Divinity Doctors in your deep dotage , making no due distinction betwixt them , for all your pretended friendship thereunto , are found very enemies to them both . So that whereas thou , who in other matters then this gloriest in thy own shame , seem'st to glory in this function of fighting against the Quakers , as in some great grace peculiarly given of God to thy unworthy self , more then any , as if Praemium strenuae contra Trepidantium Perfectionem ac ●anocentiam oppositioni debitum nemini mortalium tibi Praereptum velles , thou seemest to thy self to bear the Bell before all others , in thy stout opposing of that Innocent Seed of God , to which grace of his thou Ascribest what ever , Relying on his help and assistance thou performest in thy function aforesaid ; I conclude against thee to the contrary , thus in short , that 't is Satan himself , who set thee at work against the Quakers , and helpt thee as well as he could , and furnisht thee with many a lye both against the Quakers and the Truth , and led thee in a meer fools Paradise to prate with malicious words , and speak evil of thou knowest not whom nor what , and left thee to bewray such weaknesse , folly and false hood as falls not at all from such , as have help and assistance from God , but ever flows from the father of lyes and his children with whom thou wilt have thy reward . * J.O. Whatsoever the Jewes , whatsoever the Papists have been bold at any time to utter in disgrace of the Scriptures , every whit of that these impure men ( the Quakers ) stricken ( as 't were ) with some direful inordinate motion or rapture both say , and assert , so that its a shame to relate the horrid and most foolish Titles of Books ; the chief Vagrants and Ringleaders of this Flock , being urged , having spoken wickedly and blasphemously against the Scriptures . What their Common Opiniin , I have thought good to set down as taken and Collected from their own Books , and set Conferrences held with them , &c. Reply 1 : Here 's a most palpable Lye related of the Quakers , on whose behalf I here openly professe against thee before the World that we own all those Writings , not only of Moses and the Prophets of the Old , but those of the Apostles and Evangelists also , which are commonly called the Scriptures of the New Testament , to be Scriptures of Truth , written by holy men of God ( as those of the Old also were ) as they were moved by the Holy Spirit , whereas the Iewes ( who own , value , study , and stand for those of the Old to this day , as zealously as your selves in words do for both ) do malitiously and lyingly affirm them to be false , fictitious , and full of lyes . Reply 2. Whereas we say no such thing , nay , nothing at all in any disgraceful way of the Scriptures , but say only in words of truth and sobernesse , that they are not to be so exceedingly Adored and Idolized by men , as they●●re by you , who make them little lesse then All in all things to the Church ; the Papists speak much in disparagement of the Scriptures , in which we say they do but blasphemously babble against them , viz. That they are inferrior to the Humane Traditions of their Church , or at least to the unerring breast of their Ghostly holy Father , without whom opening and authorizing them , they are of no more use nor authority then Aesops Fables , and such like . Reply 3. Whereas thou art ashamed to Relate the horrid foolish Titles of the Quakers Books , in proof of their blasphemies , against the Scriptures ; I believe that 's true indeed , though all the rest are palpable Lyes ; for if thou shouldest Relate the Titles of the Quakers Books in proof of the Truth of this thy Charge of them , which is utterly false , then thy Lye which is plain enough already , would be seen more plainly then it is ; for in all the Titles of the Quakers Books that ever I read , who have read Ten times more of them ( I believe ) then thou hast done , as I have seen Christ only exalted on the Throne , and the Scripture owned in its place ; so I never saw , and am perswaded also thou never hast seen any thing Written by the Quakers , that borders on the foresaid Iewes and Papists blasphemings of the Holy Scriptures , and therefore as I cannot much marvel at it that thou art ashamed to do it ; so I do not much blame thee , that it doth so much shame thee ( as thou sayest ) to Relate the most foolish of them . If it were true , there was malice enough in thee I.O. to provoke thee to have instanced some Particulars in proof of this parcel of Scandal to the fuller shame of the Quakers , whom to scandalize what thou canst is thy chief design , and to have named those blasphemers and their Books ; but pudet referre ( sayest thou ) I am ashamed to Relate , &c. Thou art loath to be too punctual in thy Proof , lest it proving too short of thy Charge , the stain thou wouldest have stuck upon the Truths Friends should be stricken back upon thy self , and the Lye come to lye at thy own door , for if sounded out too loudly and distinctly , it might Eccho and rebound home again to thee the Author , and so redound to thy dishonour ; so thou fold'st thy self like the Serpent , whose seed thou art , in indefinite complexes , or at least lapest thy self up in Universals , and darest not lay thy self out at length , nor grow too far into Particulars ; for dolus later in universalibus quae nunquam bene sentiuntur , nisi ex particularibus suis , as Deceit lyes most securely , and keeps best hid in Universals , which are not clearly perceived but by the Particulars in which they exist ; so by being beheld in the said Particulars , both they and the Lyes , that lye often in them undiscerned , come more unavoidably to be discryed . Reply 4. Whereas thou saiest thou thinkest meet to set down our Opinion , as Collected out of our own Books and Speeches , and accordingly dost declare what we hold , as concerning the Scriptures , thou most plainly Confutest thy self as to the Lyes thou tellest of us , for thy self acknowledgest of us , that we own that the Scriptures do contain a true * Declaration of the Will and Mind of God , proceeding from the spirit of Christ , inspiring the Writers , that thus far we are right , and that we stand to this Confession without any renouncing it , only that we would have wholly rejected the Scriptures without doubt , but that things have not fell out according as we could wish , & do deny them to be the ordinary , inalterable , perfect , and standing Rule of Gods Worship , and our Obedience without the Revelations of the spirit , and such like ; And this ( sayest thou ) is the summe of these mens Iudgements , &c. Which if it be , where 's the wicked Blasphemy all this while wherewith thou Chargest us ? For there 's none ( as shall appear ) in the worst of this , which yet thou settest down as gathered out of the Quakers Books , and Speeches , which thou sayest bear blasphemous Titles against the Scriptures ; but pudet referre , I blush to set them down , must answer all . These things I O. do convict thee of telling many notorious Lyes against the Quakers , even too many for a man to tell , that calls himself a Minister of Christ , and D. D. though not all by very many , which thou tellest in thy Book ; some of which lyes yet ( left they should not be loud enough ' to come under every ordinary Readers Observation , if told but once , are either expresly , or implicitly two or three times over related . * J. O. The Jewes , Papists and Quakers differ among themselves ; it so falls out that they who in all other matters are most different in Opinion , conspire altogether in this blasphemy , viz. against the Scriptures . The Papists and Enthusiastical Fanaticks do perpetually War against each other , they mutually devote each other to destruction . They are not acted by the same Reasons , but those for their Traditions , these for their Enthusiasms and Revelations , Contending tooth and nail , and so like Sampsons Foxes with their Tayles turned to each other , bringing fire-brands on the Churches Bread-Corn , they all attempt together very friendly to thrust down the holy Scripture from its Place . The Papists do earnestly endeavour to detrude the Scripture out of its proper Place in the Church ; our Fanaticks tread in the same foot-steps with them , into which wickednesse those among the Papists that are called the Spiritually , have led them the way . And elsewhere thou Reckon'st us up among the rest , as Enemies of Gods Word , and haters of the Scriptures . Reply 1. Howbeit I. O. thou , who in thy Epistle pretendest it to be thy aim , and intention in thy Discourse , to discover the Reproach that is cast by many upon the Scripture to its disparagement , and to vindicate it therefrom , dost ( as in most things else wherein thou bend'st at us ) discharge thy Bow at a venture , so as at Random to rank us , as joynt Abettors with them in grosse , in that one grosse , and common Cause of Caluminating , Vilifying , Decrying , Denying the Scriptures , among Atheists , Pagans , New Testament Contemning Iewes , Papists , and the whole Rabble of Rude Reproachers thereof , whether in Whole , or Part , as if we were , if not the Ring leaders , yet at least the Rere-ward of the Ragged-Regiment of Anti-scripturists of what ever sort , yet in this thou hast most grosly abused us , and thy self also , by thy false Accusing and Belying of us to the world in that Particular , and must most assuredly come into Condemnation in ●he Judgement for Condemning the Generation of the Just ; for however thou mis-reportest of us to the causing of many to mistake us , yet of a truth we are no such manner of People , as thou wouldest make men believe we are ; but such as shall manifest our selves even in this present Contest with Thee ( for all thy perking up into a proud pretensive Prate against us ( Pro Scripturis ) as if we stood in some deep Defiance , and thou against us in some eminent and more then ordinary Defence of the Scriptures ) to be in no enmity , but in true unity with the Scriptures , and to be more real Friends thereunto , then either thy self , who wilt be found in as real enmity to them , as thou art in seeming friendship , or any of those aforesaid , with whom thou Rankest us , as if we were the Rankest Enemies thereof , that ever appeared in any Age since the Scripture had a being to this present day . Be it therefore fore-known unto thy self , and all men , who will believe , and can receive it for truth , and who so will not , let the mischief of his mis-belief in this matter be upon him , that though we own not thee I.O. and side not with , but mostly against thee in that very Book , wherein thou standest up so stiffly against Atheists and Papists , and all Anti-Scripturists , as well as against the men called Quakers , whom thou but supposest to be such ; And though we may possibly be found saying some things ( soberly ) which Atheists and Papists say ( scornfully ) of the Scriptures , which are gain-said by thee , and gain-saying at least twenty things , that are asserted by thee of the Scriptures , in thy zealous Pleadings for them , yet we are no Atheists ( as thou supposest ) neither are we Papists , or Iesuites , neither are we Anti-scripturists in any wise ; nor do we so much as take the part , or serve the Interest of , nor side , or comply with any of them , any more then we do with thy self , whose Antagonist and T. D's too , I am in this present Reply to thy Reproaches of the Quakers ; in Vindication of whose Interest alone , abstract from that of the Papists , as much as from thy own , and thy Party of Protestants ; and singly , and solely on behalf of the Truth professed by the Quakers , and opposed by thee , and all the other whom thou opposest ; And finally , for the Scriptures , which are truly owned , valued , used , known , and Practised only among the Quakers , I herein stand up more or lesse against you all , as against such , who ( none of you excepted , no not those among you Protestant Pretenders to it , who would sain seem to others ( as you do to your selves ) to be most fervent for it , any more then those Decryers and Denyers of it , with whom thou slanderously sayest the Quakers side ) will every one of you be found Foes to , denyers of , and fiery fighters against the Scripture . And this that we are no Atheists , nor yet Associates , or Assistants to any such , as are without God in the World , but that People who know God , and are known of him above all other People upon Earth , the best of which in words professe to know God , whom in Truth they know not , but in works , deny , being abominably , in their Lives , disobedient to his Light , and to every good Work void of Judgement , will as easily , as evidently appear to every Patient and Impartial Reader that can suspend his Censuring till he hath Read these present Animadversions of Thy mad Subversions of the things of God , unto the end . And that we are neither Papists , nor yet Assenting or Adhering to that Synagogue of Rome , in any of their abusive defamations , depravations , depressions , decryings , disparagements , or abominable attempts for the abolition of the Scriptures , which they , as thou sayest truly , would ( if they were able ) deprive all others of , or of their lives , I give the world here to understand , as far as they will understand it , or take it for truth form me , who for Truths sake meerly , am of lesse credit and repute in it , then else I should be , by a present Protesting in the Name and behalf of that People called Quakers , against the Papists sordid , sottish , sinful , shameful , seeking wholly to suppresse the Scriptures from being seen at all by the Vulgar , and scoring out of it , what makes most against their bruttish and worse then heathenish Idolatries , and wresting those Holy Writings , and turning them as they list to their own turns by their most false & far off Translations , and as utterly untrue Interpretations of them , besides both the plain sense of the Words in the Original Languages they were wrote in , and mind of the Spirit of God , which Originally moved Holy Men to write them , and many more such Juggles , some of which 't were better for it then it is , if the Clergy ( so called ) of the Protestant part of Christendom , who are too too full of the like , were cleare of , and fully free from , as they are not , for all their Protesting so much against the Popedom for its adulterating of the Scripture . Which Protestation of mine against the Romish Clergy , I the rather , and the more largely enter here again , not only because I am so generally misreported , that by many , even thereupon , I am also mis-believed to be too great a Favourite , and by some flatly a Iesuite , and so more then an ordinary Friend to that false Fraternity , but also because it may fall out that that slender and senslesse suspition of me ( if not timely supprest ) by reason of Three things may in time ( though groundlesse ) grow so great in more , as it does already in some , that , for the sake thereof , very Truth it self , when ●old by me , shall not tast well from me , nor take place in the hearts of men , with whom commonly , Damnati Lingua Vocem habet , Vim non habet . Those Three Things above briefly hinted , are more fully Replyed to as followeth ; 1. In regard that not only T. D. in his Two Toyes , puts us and the Popish Party together as Brethren , for jumping into one Judgement about the Scriptures , but also thou I O. who art a man more beleeved and beloved by the World , which heeds and loves its own , then I , who am not so much heeded as hated by it , because I am not of it , dost often in thy unquiet Quarrel with the Quakers ( so called ) which I , who am one of them , am now answering , so unequally yoak us , and the Pontifical Clergy together , as Co-conspirators against the Scriptures , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the younger sort , for whose instruction thou devotest those thy Latine Labours , and more then a good many of those Iunior Novices , both in University and Countrey as are ever ready as Rawly as Rashly , Iurare in Sententiam Seniorum , to drink down desperately all that , and digest it by implicit Faith , that is imposed , and handed out to them for Truth from the Tongues and Pens of their Grand Gamaliels , sith thou I. O. DD. sayest it , will unquestionably more then think it to be all Truth that thou sayest of our Co-Partnership with the Papists in their basenesse towards the Scriptures , in those false sayings of thine that are fore-cited , wherein thou injuriously avouchest us to be Approvers of all their Tauntings , and joynt Blasphemers with them of the Scriptures . 2. In regard that ( howbeit it is not at all in Vindication of the Popish Clergy in any of their Devilish doings , nor scornful , or spiteful speakings against the Scripture , but of another Interest , even that of the true Clergy , or Heritage of God , ( as remote from Theirs and Thine too , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , I am an Opposer of thee as to that same Book , wherein thou so vehemently Opposest the Papists ; hence many may , as some already do suppose I am in far firmer friendship and fellowship with that Fry of fighters against the Scripture , then with thee and thy fellows , who wouldest fain seem at least to fight against them for it ; but ( if any man will be ignorant of me and my honest meanings , let him be ignorant ) for my part as I am a well-wisher to all Souls , and am in friendship with all men , having and holding as truly Pacem cum Personis , as cum Peccatis Bellum ; so I am in no fellowship with that in all men , whether of the Romish Religion , or that which ( informe ) is more Reformed , that is not in fellowship with the Scriptures , ( for that which is not in union therewith , is not in fellowship with God ) fighting against neither smal nor great , save only against the sinful seed of the Serpent in them , which from the spirits of the spiritually throughout all Christendom , spawnes it self forth in spite , and spiritual wickednesse against the seed of the Woman , who must bruise his head at last , though he obtains for a while to bruise her heel , between whose seed , which is one , and his seed of every sort , whose name is Legion ( for they are many ) the most endlesse enmity is ; so that though I appear against those Paper-works of thine , wherein thou appearest upon the Stage , in part against that Synagogue of Satan ( but more palpably against the Synagogue of the Saints ) yet this is not all to gratifie the Romanists in their scurrilities against the Scriptures , more then thee and thine Abettors in your scarce Schollar-like , much lesse Scripture-like scoldings for them ; but as occasion is ( Pro Scripturis ) for the Scriptures , which , notwithstanding thy empty Apologetica's for them , ye , and the Papists also are both utterly against , I shall not spare to grate hard against you both , as such , who while you are scribling of the Scriptures , whether Pro or Con , are yet our of that precious Truth the Scripture tells of , and against that living Word , that eternal and internal Light it calls to , which leads to that Life of God that the Scripture calls for . 3. In regard that I am , and shall unavoidably be found in this present Controversie with thee , saying some things against thee and thy untrue Assertions for Truths sake ( yet with a due Respect thereunto ) which the very Papists say ( though truly enough , yet too disrespectfully ) about the Scriptures . In this respect though , I would not have them so ; yet I believe some are , and some will be ( if peradventure these Premises prevent it not ) so blind as to believe I own the Pope and his Apostolical Church , because I cannot own all that as true and Apostolical , which some Prime Protestants tell for Truth , but rather tell the Truth with him when he tells it about the Scripture , or any other thing , then Errour and Lyes with those , who pretendedly for the Truth and Pro Scripturis , Protest against him : For I must give the Devil his due , so as to acknowledge his Words to be true , when he speaks the Truth , though to a false end , rather then sooth up thee I.O. or any other men , so as to say the Crow is white , and that ye utter Truth , when ye tell utter untruth , though against the Devil himself , to please either thee , or them . Howbeit many men in these dayes , and not a few of those , who are called Christs Ministers , and counted well studied Schollars , or at least would not be well contented to be not so accounted , are yet so dim , as without any more ado to deem them to be Romish Priests , under Pay from the Pope , who own some Truths , which his Priesthood owns ( as if because at Rome they own Christ to be the Son of God , they must needs be of that Church , who deny him not so to be ) but more especially any Truths , which by these Divine Deemers are not Deemed to be Truths , and thereupon disowned by their non-discerning selves , upon whose crazy Concerts , and cloudy Accounts , and crooked Conjectures , some , that do more service to the Truth against Popish Fictions in a year , then themselves do in an Age , are thorow their shallow surmises by their implicit Faith't People , as sinisterly supposed to be Supporters of the Papal Hierarchy , because themselves , whose Idol the Letter is , are not digested in all their Extravagant Exaltings of it , though the Popes extream of Exalting his leaden Legends , and Holy Chaire above it , be more professedly distasted and detested . Thus such as believe , according to the Scripture , the general Grace , and Love of God in giving Christ to die for all men , for as much as that also is believed at Rome , seem to these senslesse ones to favour too much of Popery , because the empty understandings , narrow Nodels , and heedlesse Head-pieces of many Protestant Parish Priests are not as yet enlarged enough to comprehend it ; who notwithstanding being blear-eyed at home , whilest Eagle eyed abroad , Nunquam vident id manticae , quod in tergo est , never come to see , or sent that plain Popery of their Parish Posture and Parish pay by way of Tythes , which the Night is now too far spent for any but Owles , Bats and Night-birds not to see , that its of the Pope ; sith though its a piece of stark rank and Popery , not held without the guilt of Perjury , yet , as it s their own ( & suus cuique crepitus bene olet ) so it s that which serves their turn better at this time , then the Extirpation of it Root and Branch according to their Oathes ( which would savour lesse of Popery , and more of pure Pietv ) will ever do . Of this sort of Evil Surmisers is T. D. who , not only as thou I. O. dost , Accuses us ( me in particular ) as one big with , and spitting out venome against the Scriptures , for not owning those outward Writings as the only Rule of Faith and holy Life , but also accounts of us , as no other then broachers of Popish Doctrines , and bringers in of the Popes Baggage , for dissenting as in other points so from his blind Tenets about the Scriptures Yea , so earnestly doth T. D. drive on his Design of Insinuating it into mens minds concerning me , that I am Popishly affected , that he finds occasion of Accusation against me as so , as well where I more fully own the Scripture , then himself does , as where I may more easily seem ( to one that 's blind ) to deny it . Witnesse his words , Page 27. 1. Pamph where for owning the Epistle of Paul to LAODICEA , which he sputns at as Spurious , he flyes thus foolishly in my face : T.D. We know ( quoth he ) your Brethren of the Popish Party have laid many such Brats at the Apostles Doors , which they will not Father , and you shew what you are in Abbetting their Wickednesse . Reply 1. What a wicked and Adulterous Generation of men is this ? like that in which Christ lived , who would have something to say against the Gospel and the Truth , let it come handed to them which way soever ; they would neither lament at Christs mourning to them in Iohns Ministry , nor Dance at his Piping to them in his own , but reject and belye him when he came contrarily to them in Iohns Fastings ; and condescendingly to them in his own Eatings and Drinkings , as either having a Devil , or being a Drunkard , or a Gluttòn , or a Friend of Gods Enemies , and Sinners , or somewhat or other still that was nought , rather then own the Truth at any hand that in both Ministryes was held out unto them ; So is the Ear of our now Pharifaical generation of Scribes stop'd , like that of the deaf Adder at the Voice of the Charmer , let him Charm never so wisely ; among whom T.D. is a Chieftain , who Ranks us among the Popish party , as spitting out our venome , that we are big with against it , Page 28. 1 Pamph. and as denyers of the Scripture together with them , because we deny many false things that many such Ministers as himself do most absurdly affirm of it ; and yet Charges us as Brotherly owners and Abbetors of the Papists wickednesse also , for owning the holy Scripture in many parts of it , wherein our English Ministers do not blush to deny it , and so consequently for owning it much more truly and fully then themselves : Thus , — Heu stirpem invisam ! Hei mihi quod n●llis amor est Reparabilis Herbis ! If we should , as they falsly ▪ Accuse us , own the Scriptures lesse then our Accusers do , we must be Papists ; if we own them more , and more of them then themselves do , we must be no lesse then Papists . We must stand doom'd as Papists , who , be we nere so wary , Are Papists deem'd in this , and in the clean contrary . But that I am not so Popishly affected as I am , as well every way , as every where misrepresented to be by those , who to sit the more securely in their own Popishnesse , do in the Apishnesse of their Spirits sound it out with a dreadful noise to the stunning of their already Pope-serving people , Popery , Popery , against all that come neer to Storm them out of their Popified Parish postures , practises and preferments , to what I have said sufficiently above , I shall now adde what followes in evidence thereof , whether you will hear ( O all ye my unjust Accusers in that particular ) or whether ye will forbear , to the perfect ending of my Protestation which I have begun to enter against that Synagogue of Rome , viz. First , That ( whatever they may own of what I have above , or shall yet say ) I own not them as Apostolical , nor as any other then that Apostatical Harlot , which , together with her two Brats , that more lately are broken out from her bowels , viz. Prelacy and Presbytery , hath in Three parts ( as the great City is said to do before its fall , Rev. 16.19 . ) sate like a certain unity in Trinity , and Trinity in unity , or one great Tripartite Mystical Babylonish Whore , with her Tripple Crown upon the many waters , or Tongues , Nations , Kindreds and People , and reigned over the Kings of the Earth , Rev. 17.1.2.15.18 . And as to their behaviour toward the Scripture , which they wofully mistake themselves to be the only Trustees , to whose care and custody it was committed , I professe against them with I. O. that they have wofully misdemeaned themselves towards it , as by sowly betraying , and ( to their own eternal shame ) falsif●ing that their pretended Trust , corrupting , depraving , vitiaring , interpolating , adding , detracting , forging , foisting into the Scripture what never was of the spirit , so by abusing it every way , so that none of the Copies of it ( as it comes thorow their hands ) whether Original or Translated ( and if thou I O. canst shew any that come thorow other hands of which thou canst say infallibly they are not altered and corrupted ( as in thy Book thou hast not done ) Dic quibus in terris & eris mihi magnus Apollo ) are fit to be a fixed stable Rule , or infallible Guide to us thoroughout in the knowledge of the Will of God ; And lastly , ( for take it at the worst its worthy of a better carriage towards it then they afford it ) in a scurrilous scoffing way underva'uing , vilifying , defying , unworthily depressing it far below it self , as much as it is over-valued , Idolized , blindly worshipped , deisted , and enthroned far above it self by your selves , who , together with the Popish party , like the Frog and the Mouse , being very busie in busling against each other with your Bulrushes about the Scripture in your two opposite Imaginations , will find a Generation that waits upon the Lord , and mounts up with wings as quick-sighted as an Eagle , though no better then a blind Buzzard in your eyes , who will winne the field from both you stout Warriours , which are at it tooth and nail to your own ruine , and shall one have no more thank from God then the other , whilest , for all your zealous pratings pro and con in two different Erroneous extreams concerning the Letter , ye are both exceedingly , and both extreamly erred from the Light it came from , and the Life it calls for ; the one exalting the bare dry bones and dead body of the Letter above the Word of Life , which Letter too is magnified more in an empty sound of windy , plausible Commendations of it , then by any , so much as outward Conformity to it in Conversation ; the other establishing the dark lumpe of their own lying Legends and dead stinking Carcase of their Traditional Divinations , partly derived from faithlesse Forefathers , and partly divined forth from the deep pit of their Great Ghostly Fathers fathomlesse Fancy , as a Standard in stead of it . So that howbeit I.O. the detestable wickednesse of that Antichristian Conclave , who ( as thou sayest ) sell themselves to work all manner of Abominations against the Scripture , I abominate as much as thou canst do ( yea be not thou so blind as to believe , that I abet them in any of their beastlinesse of that nature ) yet withal do not thou believe that , that while I abandon their brutishnesse , I can own thee in thy blindnesse , and the many absolute Absurdities , whereby thou grossely abusest it , and the truth , and thy self well-nigh as much another way , who perhaps thinkest thou canst not easily ( if at all ) be transported into Errour , while thou art Extolling the outward Text of Scripture , and gain-saying at a venture all that those Debasers of it hold out about it ; for a● the time is coming ( as thou truly enough Prophesiest unto them ) wherein it shall repent them for ever that they have lifted up themselves against this sacred Grant of the wisdom , care , love and goodnesse of God , page 4. o● thy Epistle . So say I to thee , the time is at hand wherein it shall repent thee that ever thou liftedest up thy self ( as thou dost ) in so vain a way of lifting up , and advancing the Letter over all that , which is to be preferred before it , and was before it , as that it came out from , and points men to , even the living Word and inward Light and spirit , which ( as held out by the Quakers , not in any way of that Devilish disparagement of ( as thou intimatest , Ex. 1. S. 3. ) or spiteful disrespect to the Scripture ) thou settest at nought with all the Calumny thou canst likely cast on them ; yea as thou sayest of the Pope , Ex. 2. S. 8. Papae Tempus erit , &c. So say I to thee , Non Papae solum , sed tibi tempus erit cum magno optaveris emptam intactam Scripturam . And that I am no Iesuite , nor sider with them about the Scripture , so as to agree with them in upholding their seigned infallible Chaire , besides what many can witnesse , who have been Eye and Ear witnesses of my opposing them in other Nations , I adde this as my Final Defence of my self , as to that Aspersion of T. D. He that will give heed to it let him , if otherwise let him chuse , Non cum Jesu Itis , qui Itis cum Jesuitis . So then as to Evince it that I am none of those Idiots that Idolize any meer mens Writings , as many do the un kilful scriblings of their Scribes for the Scriptures , little lesse then Israel did the Golden Calves , after which they dotingly ran from God himself , saying of these Imuges in their own Imaginations , These are thy Gods , &c. Nor yet any meer Writings of those holy men that wrote the Holy Scripture it self , as most of our misty-Ministers and their people do , because they were written by Divine Inspiration , little lesse then Israel did the Brazen Serpent , because it was hung up by Divine Institution : I shall First take occasion to thrust down that enthroned Calf of thy Anti-scriptural Triobulary Treatises , Theses , and Atheological Thoughts upon the Scripture from that high place it hath in the Thoughts of such as fall down before it , as Moses threw down that Molten Image which the High Priest made , and ignorant people made a God of ) and stamped it to powder : And Secondly , As Hezekiah not without Gods own approbation , took down the Brazen Serpent which had its being ( as the Holy Scripture it self had ) not without Gods own appointment , when once men began to do Homage to it , and called it no more then Nehushtan , that is a piece of Brasse , that they might know it was no God ; So shall I take down the dead Corps and bare Carcase of the best Copy of the Scripture , since men begin to go a Whoring after it , from God , and Christ , and the Word of Life it self , out of that high and stately Throne , wherein thou I. O. statest it , and from those surpassing and lofty Titles of , the Living Word of God , the most glorious spiritual Light in the World , above the Sun , the most perfect Rule , and many more such like ; with which thou ( as hereafter appears ) dost invest and exalt it over all , even over the Light it came from , which is by thee unjustly put behind it , and dehased below it , though both in time and worth 't is far before it , and stile it by its own true Name of Writings of Truth , or Holy Scripture , that so men that seek to it more then to God himself for Salvation , and search it , and therein think to have eternal Life [ at the old Scribes did that never came to Christ , the Light , above whom they prefered it ] may recollect themselves and see that the Letter gives not the Life , but doth only testifie outwardly of another , whom being lost from him by looking to the Letter , which bids look to him , they never look to , nor never yet came to , that they might have Life . So withal to evince it that I am none of those Popish Ignoramus's , that deal so ignobly with the holy Scriptures , as to set them at nought , and pluck them down ( as they do ) not only below themselves , which have as Real and Great an Excellency as any such thing , as is no more then an External Writing of an External Truth can possibly have , but also below that , which is worse then naught ( viz. ) their leaden Legend of Lyes , their trashy Traditions , their mouldy Massora , their invented Oral Law , their vain verbum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & that meer imagined Moon calf , the unerring breast of their most erroneous holy Father , and such like ; I shall in this Work before all the world prefer the bare body and letter of the Scripture , which is legible to mens bodily Eyes , far before that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou truly callest it ) for all their Abominations , before that whole Body of Fools bawbles , that bottomlesse pit of Paultrinesse , that boundlesse bundle of Baby clouts that endlesse Ocean of Omnigatherums , that dirty puddle and deep dunghil of Devility , rather then Divinity , which the more it s dived and raked into , the more rotten it renders it self like some for did sink , that stinkes the more , the more 't is stirred in ; for such is the Traditionary Treasury of that saltlesse unsavoury Sea ( upon which therefore the plagues of the Vials ( which must be filled upon you also ) are fallen , falling , and to fall ) which Sea of Rome is , as the blood of a dead man , lifelesse , putrid and corrupt , so that every living Soul dies that lives therein . Yea , Consider the naked literal Aspect of the holy Scriptures , nor in its highest , not in its primitive , best , and purest , as at first given forth , but in its meer derivative , in its lowest , meanest , and most altered and adulterated capacity , wherein it stands at this day , wrested and torn , and like a Nose of Wax twisted and twined into more then twice , if not ten or twenty times twenty several shapes by mens untrue and tottered Transcripts , and Translations ( for Oh that vast variety of Lections , besides the Infinity of Senses , throw mens misrenderings , corrupt copyings , correctings of , and commentings on it , &c. that the World is now loaded with , and led out into ! ) yet as meer a graven Image as that is with Ink and Pen on Paper or skin of parchment ( for 't is so , though I reject their jeers , as improper and impious , by whom it is scoffed at as Chartacea , Membranae , &c. for 't is not so ) and as dead a Letter as it is ( bear with me in that Expression I. O. till I come to shew where thou so callest it as well as Papists and Quakers , whom thou quarrellest with for so calling it ) and as very a Nose of Wax and Lesbian Rule , and no certain stable standard as it is ( for I know not why what they wickedly ( because Tauntingly ) we may not honestly ( sith truly , seriously , and soberly ) so call , which may so easily , so endlesly be altered by the wills of men , as they self I.O. shewest us in the 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. pages of they Preface , the Scripture may , and made to stand which way any Critick pleases ) and as no Authority to us at all , as they ( in their basenesse and hatred of it , which I condemne ) do say it is of , as 't is my continual exercise in works to do it , so do I here in plain words exalt the Scripture , which they so debase , and state it over all that their Trash and aforesaid Trumpery , even on the very top of all their long Train of Traditions , and over the archest Tittle of the Tripple Crown ; the proudest pinacle of Peters ( now un - Peter-like ) painted Temple , the highest point of that pompous , pious , piteous Pillar and ground of Truth , the choicest Chapiter of that holy Church , and infallibly erring infallible Chair . Thus doing , I shall be own'd at last , if not by I. O. and such as have his dimme Doings , as t●ey have his person , in admiration , because of advantage , yet by all unbyassed beholders of both our undertakings for the Scripture to be no more a pander for the Papists ( as I am more belyed then believed to be the lying Tribe of Levi ) then for himself , but a just , plain , and impartial Pleader for the Scripture against them both , and a doer of Right to those holy Writings which are egregiously wronged by both Papists and Protestants , as between Two parties of partial Praters Pro and Con about them ; by one of which they are scarcely more sottishly and Satanically ( for Superstitions sake ) Abhorred , then unduly and Superstitiously Adored by the other . For howbeit thou deemest thy self , and those thy self Reverencing fellow Students of it , to whom thou Dedicatest thy Endeavours to Vindicate it , to be such as value the Scripture as much as any thou knowest ; yet there are many whom thou knowest not , but supposest to be sleighters and disowners of it , who , if to own , value and exalt it , be to ascribe all that to it , which it assumes to it self , to Preach and practise that holy Life , which is the end of it , and to give it its due and no more ( as indeed it is ) do own , value , honour and exalt the Holy Scripture much more , and much more truly , then any of your self-exalting selves , who , saving your fair Speeches for it , and your fawnings on it , ( Ore tenus ) your common aiëry and meer verbal Commendations thereof , and of your selves as valuers thereof , do yet in truth no more value , or honour it , then the Iewes ( whose grand Idol that is , as the whole is yours ) at this day do their own owned part thereof ; of whose dotage in that kind , I have in sundry Nations been an Eye-witnesse , in not a few of their Synagogues , who Adorn , and carry it about ( as ye do your Bibles , more beautified without , then your selves are within ) and lift it up with loud noises , especially when these words are read , ( viz. ) He shall magnifie the Law , and make it honourable ; when yet the Truth it makes mention of , hath no Mansion in their minds to the renewing of them ; yea , I may truly say you do more undervalue the Scripture by your advancing it above it self , and over-valuing and worshipping it so much as ye do in your words , whilst alienated from the Light it came from , and calls to , in your Works and Lives , then some of the Synagogue of very Rome it self , who in lips and lives too , do undervalue it ; by how much Deceit and Hypocrisie is far greater Iniquity , then 't is for men openly to disown what Cordially they do not own , and to pretend to be no better Friends to it then indeed they are ; and by how much as all is not Gold that glisters , so all that , which by its glistring would fain seem to be Gold , when it is but Drosse , is worse then that , which both is Drosse , and seems to be so . Yea , those that undervalue the Scripture so as to set Traditions above it , and they that overvalue it so as to set the Light below it , both these must come under Condemnation from me , as being both Abomination to the Lord , before whom ( witness the Brazen Serpent , and Christs Apostles , Acts 14.11 . to 19. whom the people did worse in Worshipping as Gods , then if they had not heeded , but hated them as of the Devil ) it may be worse to overvalue , then to undervalue many things , which may be of his own Appointment : So that ye have little need to decry against Papists as Decryers of the Scriptures , and lesse to link us ( the Quakers ) and Papists together , as Adversaries in Common to the Scriptures , as if your selves were the only Patrones thereof ; for as Anti-Papistical as ye seem to be about the Scriptures , yet ye will be found Acting , not more against them , then ( though in a different way from the Papists ) against the Scriptures . And howbeit thou taylest us and the Papists together , figuring us out by thy fine Tale of the aforesaid Foxes , as falling from , and fighting against each other , and yet both fellow-friends against the Scripture ; That is false as urged , and uttered with that referrence to the Papists and Quakers , as joynt Injurers of the Scriptures , wherewith thou ridiculously Relatest it , but true enough , yea too too true , If Related in that right Referrence , which it bears toward the Papists and your Selves ; yea , Quid Rides ? be not so merry I. O. about the Mouth ; for De te ( mutato nomine Quakers ) Fabula narratur ; thou thinkest thou hast shrewdly hurt thy meer fancied Fanatick Foes with a flap of a Fox-Tayle , but in that Tale thou hast but made a Rod for thy own Tayle ; for verily he that hath but half an Eye , and by thy mentioning thereof , is minded to search where , and to whom thy Simile best suits , will find how causelesly and incongrously thou crowdest the Papists and Quakers so closely together as Companions in thy abusive Comparison ; and how aptly it may rather be Applyed to that Romish Synagogue , and your Selves , to whom it comes as nigh as four feet ( if any Simile can truly be said to run on all four ) can well carry it ; and who , as much as ye dissent not only in diverse other matters , but also about the Scripture it self , the one for , and the other against the perfection , purity , integrity , authority , and excellency of the meer Text and bare Letter of it , do yet concur as closely , and come as nigh to one another in denyal of the Truth and Doctrine thereof , as four pence comes to a Groat . Yea , the Truth is your selves , and they are far more fitly figured by those fiery-Tayld Foxes which tended two several wayes , yet ended in one and the self same work of Destroying the Philistims Corn , whil'st turning tayl to tayl , and drawing into your two different Extreames , one sort crying up Unwritten Traditions to be the most perfect Rule above the Scripture ; the other crying up the Outward Letter , as the most perfect Rule , above the Internal Light , Word and Spirit , which gave it forth , ye not only fill the World , as with so many Fire brands with your fiery Contentions , so that like that Corn which failed when it felt the fire , it fell together by the Eares to its own ruine and destruction , but also between you draw and drive all people ( being erred from it your selves ) from that , which was before them , in the being of a Rule , and will be found to be a most perfect Rule without them both , ( viz. ) that Light which thou so laughest at . So that their Souls starve , famish , perish , and pine away for lack of the true Bread of Life , Christ Iesus , whom the Light only leads to , and for want of that Corn of Heaven which God feeds those with that truly fear him . And as to what is said about your valuing and exalting the Scripture , which ye say the Papists and Quakers do set light by and undervalue ; I say , If to be very busie about the dead bulk , the bare back-side of that Book , which contains the Scripture , called the Bible , If to blesse it , and adorn , and adore the naked Body of it , If to do by it little lesse , then all that the Papists do in way of honour and exaltation of it to the dead Body of their Great Goddesse the Virgin Mary , be to honour and value the Bible , then ye honour it indeed , but scarcely else ; If to overlay it with Gold and curious Colours , If to make Images and Pictures of it , to print it on Title pages of their own Books in the hands of Priests , If to hand it up in paint upon Sign posts , Ensignes , Colours , &c. If to attribute to it many high prerogative Titles which are not belonging to it , but to Christ the Light , and his light alone , as Via per quam nos ad Deum , Deus ad nos ; the Saints Re'uge , most perfect Rule , Living Word of God , and a score more of the same sort , which it no where takes to it self , which yet who so cannot give it , cannot have the common priviledges due to them with other men in their own Native Countries ; If to laud the Letter more then lead the Life which it requires ; If to be ever coming for Counsel to it , but never conforming to the Counsel of it when it calls you to the Light for Life ; If to place Holinesse , Righteousnesse and Religion more in a Round of Reading it , and preaching upon it , then in being and becoming so Holy , Righteous , Religious & unspotted of the World as it requires ; If to spare no cost in Printing , Re-printing , Binding , Beautifying , Buying Bibles of all sorts and sizes , storing all Studies , Libraries and Houses therewith ; If to carry them about under your Arms ; If to hold them up in your Hands out of the Pulpit ore a soft Cushion while ( till the Glasse be run ) you Collate thereon ; If to be more Critical in Coting , and punctual in Noting this proof and t'other about the Practice of Piety , then to practice the piety therein approved ; If to be loud and Clamorous for this or that more Corrected Copy of it , against these or those that are more Corrupted ; If to have it in so high esteem , and account , as to count it one of the most gainful Commodities that men can trade in , or get Money by Ministring out of ; If to cry it up , and make no small stir about it , as Demetrius the Silver-smith , who by making Shrines for her brought no small Gain to himself and his fellow Craftmen , who by that Craft had their Wealth , did about their Image Diana , which fell down from Iupiter , who with the Workmen of like Occupation , cried out , full of wrath , of the Greatnesse of their Goddesse , against such as they could not prove to be Blasphemers of her , for fear least there should be a Despising and D●stroying of that more then fit Magnificence they magnified her withal by promoting of the Truth , and so their Craft be in danger to be set at naught ; If to Vindicate it with as much v●hemency in long self-confounding . Scripture defending Discourses , crude indigested , self-confuting Divinity Disputations ( such as I. O's . ) from that real Right , which is done it by its Rightest Friends the Quakers , who vindicate it from that real Wrong that is done to it by its forenamed ( not so much nominal as real ) Fox-like Foes ; If to decry them , who decry those , that in workes deny it , as decryers of it , like such as use to cry Whore first against honest Matrons , left their own Whoredoms by them discryed , should be discovered ; If manually and verbally , more then mentally and vitally to advance and extol it ; If so to advance , extol and value it , as to detrude , deride , and vi●ifie that light it came from , which was before , and is above it for the sake of it ; If to make your boasts of the Letter , and yet thorow breaking the Law , that is laid down in it , to dishonour God , whose Name is blasphemed among Turks at this day by the lawlesse lives of some Letter tawding Christians ( which Turks if you bid them lesse for what they Sell , then at first they ask , will say , What belike you think I am a Christian that ask more then I mean to take ) If to wear out your wretched dayes , spend your precious hours , spinne out your whole lives in speaking of , and for it , and one to another about it , in scrambling and scraping , and scribling , for the meer skull of the Scripture ; If to be obstinately obstreperous in peevish prittleprattles for every little Letter , particle , point , trivial Title and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it ; If to tear and tire yourselves and others in toylesome Treatises about the Integrity of the External ( non-Original ) Original Text of it ; If to transgresse beyond the bounds of all Sense and Reason , and transcend the measure of all modesty and Truth in talk of the infallible Truth of fallible mens meer fallible Transcripts of it out of the Original Text of all , which ye confesse is not now in being , and that in every Apex and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , as thou I. O. dost ; If to be ( as thou in the first page of thy Preface sayest some of you are to good ( but I say to little purpose ) almost every day in Commendation of the Scripture , and Exhortation to the study of it ; If like Stoicks to stand studying in it with your own natural understandings without the Life and spirit which only opens it , till ye Commence Stocks , staves and stones , sottish Priests that forget the Law of their God , lost from it by looking for it in the Letter of it , and in the Wood of your own Wisdom together , yea ( Antitipically ) those very Stocks at which yet the People , who are likepeople-like-Priest , ask Counsel , their staff which declareth Error to them ye Teacher of Lyes , the stock and the dumb-stone to which ( wo to them ) the vain people say . Thou art my Father , thou hast begotten me , Awake , Arise thou shalt Teach , Jer. 2.27 . Hos. 4.6 , 9 , 12. Heb. 2.18 , 19. If to Comment at large upon it ; If to load the World , and lead it into a laborynth with your Infinite labourings and illiterate labours about the literal Sense of it , and endlesse endeavours to explain it , till ye make it more intricate by your opposite Expositions , and that in such very places , which to any ( save such light haters , as standing in their own light cannot see Wood for Trees ) are as plain as the Nose on a mans face ; If to claw it , and call it Lydium lapidem , a true undeceivable , fixt , sure , and inalterable standing Touchstone , and disown those as dishonourers of it , who ( in words ) compare it to a Nose of Wax , a Lesbyan Rule , and yet ( in your own Works ) so to make it , by bending and bowing it every one to his own blind Invention , so as to cause it to stand Nine wayes at once , and to propound not only how possibly , but also how facile it is to wrest it into as many various Lections by the advantage of the Hebrew Character as can be in the most flexible Writing in the World , or any Critick can invent ( as thou I.O. teachest in thy Epistle ) If to play Legerdemaine with it , so as in a presence of valuing It , to say great matters of it , and then to depresse it so as to unsay them again , and then to run the Rounds and say them again , as thou I.O. often dost ; If to boyse it up into that honourable Title of the Living Word of God , and again to hurle it down into that more temperate Term , which yet ye will not endure others to Term it by of a Dead Letter , and yet ( to go round again ) Horrendo percussis scotomate , after that to say its Living , and no where said to be Dead ; If to deal so worthily with it as to affirm it to be perfect as to its own end , and fall out with such as deny it so to be , as no Quakers do that I know of , and then from the same Hand-writing that before affirmed it , to deal so unworthily with it as to deny it so to be ( as if I.O. doth not my Eyes are out , but if he do , he will surely say his own were not well open when he did so ) If to say its profitable to its end , and that its end is to make men perfect , and yet to say no man is made perfect in this World , in which only the Scripture is confessed to be of use , nor till the world to come , where it s granted to be of no use , & cannot profit at all ; If thus to tosse it to and again like a Tennis Ball in a confused , self-contradictory kind of talk , sometimes telling the Truth about it , sometimes belying it , sometimes giving both it , and the Lyar himself the Lye , who so belyed it ; sometimes , yea often lying against and alwayes living beside the holy Truth , and Doctrine itself declared by it ; If to exceed in setting forth its self evidencing Excellency , in avouching its Divine Authority and Power to Command men in the Name of God as his Word , and yet never to come under the Power of its Commands , so as yield Obedience thereunto , If to call it your Rule , and yet never submit to be ruled by it ; If both to overvalue and to undervalue , to lift up and cast down , to honour and dishonour it , be truly indeed to value , exalt and honour the Scriptures ; If all the particulars above enumerated , and many more of the same sort that might be instanced in by Induction , be in heart , word and deed so to do , then I shall yield the Scripture to be as much so valued , honoured and exalted in this ever-Reforming , never-Reforming Nation of England as among Papists , or any other Nation whatsoever , and by our self separating , sensual , literal , Antiscriptural , Anti-spiritual , high Notional Professors , as well as by the best National Protestants that are therein , and by I.O. himself , and his Reverend Fellow Students ( if they study and value it at the same rates with himself ) as much as any I know : Finally , If this be very highly to value it , to be alwayes charging , challenging , and calling out for the Allowance of large and liberal Maintenance * & Augmentation of Means , by all means possible , out of all mens possibilities for the Ministers , not of the Spirit , but of the Letter only , as those of mens making are , who steal words enough from thence , cut of which , together with what of their own they patch them up with into one or two hours piece of work in a week to pick out a Living by , And if that be to value it , or esteem it , or prize it , or rate it high , or set much by it , or make much of it to sell every Sermon , so stole , and made but on some one verse of it ( and yet some make so much of one verse as to make many Sermons on it , stretching it out , for ease-sake , to hold out the running of many Glasses ) for 20 shillings a Sermon , and more Money , and to have and to hold some Hundreds , at least one Hundred of pounds , for at most one hundred of Sermons ; I say if this be to make much of the Scripture , there is more made of it in one year by our Divines , and Doctors of Divinity ( amongst whom I.O. was once none of the last nor least , as to valuing and making much of it ) then ever was by all the Quakers in the World since that Nick-Name began , who yet , if to make much of it be to live in the Light as the Letter itself exhorts to do , do make more of it that way in a year , then all those Priests and Prophets that preach it for Hire , and Divine out of it for Money or ever have done since the World began , or ever will do while it hath a being . So that howbeit thou I.O. in thy hostile mind representest the Quakers as hostes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , enemies and haters of the Scriptures , there 's no such matter ; for if they be haters of it that hate to be reproved by it , and cannot endure the sound Doctrine delivered in it , which is according to Godlinesse ; the Letter hath no such haters of it as the very Ministers of the Letter are , who are ever enmity against the Life , Light and Spirit it calls to walk in ; And if they may be said to love it , who are livers according to it , the very Letter itself hath no such true lovers of it , as the Quakers , who are in thy blind zeal hated by thee , as haters of it , for living that Life it calls for . As to thy Tale of our striving to thrust the Scripture from its own place in the Church of God , it s as true a Tale as its fellow false ones ; for though we set Christ and his inward Light , living Word , and Life-giving Spirit only on the Throne in the Church , yet we own and establish the Scripture , which is but the meer Letter in its proper place , wherein it is to stand ( since it had its being ( as so ) from the other ) as subservient , and subordinate to the other , which are its betters , and its elders , and not as such a Dominus fac Iotum as thou makest it , as if those that gave being to it , must now come under it so as to stand barely at the Bar before it to be tryed by it , while it sits in supream Authourity on the Bench , as the most perfect , infallible Touch stone , Lydius lapis , and standing Rule ( for no lesse , but much more thou wouldest have it , even Light , Rule of Trial , Iudge , Witnesse , and all ) to which all Spirits , even Gods own , that gave it out , as well as all false ones , must stand , or rather stoop , and submit to be judged by , and the foundation which the Church , or World in the World , or Wheel in a Wheel must stand , or else fall and fail for ever ; for as there was a time wherein the Church ( which is but one from Abel till now , & can have but one and the same Rule , bottom and foundation for ever , and one Rock on which its built , which is neither Peter , nor Paul , nor any of their Writings , nor of any Prophets that wrote afore them , but Christ the Light to the Nations , and the Rock of Ages and Generations ) was without it , and not placed upon it , so there was a time of thousands of years together wherein it had no place , nor use at all in the Church , nor so much as any being in the World ; and as for such high place as thou in thy own will now alowest it ( as it s own ) as wise and quick-sighted as thou art to know and see non Entities , and things that never were at all , I know no such Place that God ever set it in , nor time , when he so super-eminently exalted it ; and though I acknowledge , and am not ignorant ( as thou art ) that meer men and blind builders ( as seeing as thyself ) have Canonized it into the Head of the Corner , laying him aside , whom God hath made so , yet I am to learn , and so art thou ( for all thy hasty teaching it , as Truth , to others ) where ever the bare Letter or Scripture ( which is all one ) was created into such a Lord , as thou lookest on it to be , over his inward Light & Spirit in the heart , and authorized so infinitely , as thou imaginest , over all things by the Lord God of Heaven and Earth , the only Author and Creator of all things . * J.O. Not only to detrade the Scripture from its place , but also that by that one only device of denying to the Scripture that glorious Title of the Word of God , the Quakers aim and endeavour to divest Christ himself of his Personality and divine Being . Reply . Was ever man left of God to shew his own Folly by more palpable & apparent absurdities , then thou here utterest , who by that very thing , whereby we seek to invest Christ with the proper and peculiar Right both in Name and Nature , whereof your selves rob him , belyest us , so as to say we thereby seek to divest him of it ? Is not the Word of God not only the proper Name Ioh. 1. Rev. 19. but also the proper Nature and divine Being of Christ , which he had before he was made flesh , from the very beginning before the Scripture was , that declares of him , before World it self was , which was made by him , and all things in it , so that without him nothing was made that was made ? And because that we will not take this glorious Title of his , to whom only of Right it belongeth , viz. the Word of God , who hath no corruptible Word that I know but only one , that 's incorruptible and liveth and abideth for ever , and is both essentialiter and effective and enunciative too the Word of God , and invest such a corruptible thing herewith as the mouldring Letter , a Writing with mens hands , which Worms may eat , and mens Hands blot out , deface , and destroy ; and because we will not attribute that everlasting Name of his , to that which in Nature is not everlasting ( as ye do ) but decaying ; dost thou say we divest him of his divine Being ? Dost thou not beget this bastardly businesse of divesting Christ himself of his divine Name and Nature , Excellency and Existence in thy own brain , by ascribing these to the Scriptures , and giving the glory thereof to another under that high Prerogative Title of the Word of God , due only and alone to him , and not to any Letter , that man , as moved by him , writes of him , and then lay it at the door of the Quakers ? Art not thou the man that appropriatest that Name and Nature , which is proper to Christ alone , to the Scripture , by disputing as to Name and Thing in esse reasi cognoscibili , that it is the Word of God , & that glorious Title is its proper Name ? and is not this what in you lyes to dethrone Christ , who only is so , and place another ever him as the only most , perfect Light , Foundation , Touchstone , by which his Spirit must be tryed ) and yet accusest thou the Quakers of displacing him ? Doth not the Scripture say that Christ is the Light , which the Church Ministerially is to hold out & bear witness to ( Ioh. 1 ) in all her Preachings , Administrations and Walkings , and the Scripture is written out for the sake , and Instruction , and profit or use and service of the Church , 2 Tim 3.15 , 16. 1 Cor. 10. yet settest not thou the Letter above the Church and Christ too , saying , Page 76. The Scripture is Light , it is the duty of every Church to hold it up , almost the whole of its duty ; and this Duty it performs Ministerially , not Authoritatively . A Church may bear up that Light , it is not the Light ; it bears Witnesse to it , but kindles not one divine beam to further its discovery : All the Preaching that is in any Church , its Administration of Ordinances , all its walking in the Truth hold up this Light ? Thus magnifying the Letter above all , and making it the main businesse of the Church to magnifie and hold it up , much what as the Iewes do , whose Work in their Synagogues is to lift up the Letter , while they loath the Law and the Light it came from , and is but the meer Letter or Writing of ? J. O. The whole Truth of the Words of God is as to Name and Thing opposed by the poor Fanatical Quakers ; Satan in these dayes assaults the sacred Truth of the Word of God in the poor deluded Fanatical Souls among us commonly called Quakers . Reply . It was none but Satan himself that is a Lyar , & the Father of it who told thee so , and in thee tells it out for Truth to the whole World ; For , 1. The whole Word of God , which is but of one , & not of many kinds , that I know of , as thou wouldest make it , as if God had one Living , one Dead , one Fallible another Infallible , one Corruptible another Incorruptible , one Eternal , one Temporal Word ; one that 's only Letter , another that 's Spirit and Life ; one Written , and another Unwritten ; one within men , and another , that 's not the same in Nature , without men ; that one and the same Individual Word of God , I say , which is the same , whether within or without , Written or Unwritten , neither of which the bare Writing is , as to both Name and Thing we own and honour , as that which from everlasting to everlasting is unchangeably Authoritative over all , inviolably pure , every way entire and absolutely perfect as God is , whose Word it is , and so we assault it not in its Name , nor in the Thing , as thou sayest ; for we know and never did yet deny ( unlesse 't were before we knew it , and while we were the same with you , who yet know it not , nor never heard it from his own mouth ) the Word of God to be the Word of God ; And also though thou Scandalize us so grossely as to say Satan sets us on work to bereave the Scripture of the glorious Title of the Word of God , as its own Proper Name ; That 2. is also false , for at the Will of God , and in service and obedience to him , and not of Satan , we strip the meer Letter of that Glory , wherewith thou unduly dost invest it , and take it down from that high Throne and Authority , wherein Satan sets thee on work to set it up , ●that men may do homage to it , and so run a Whoring after it from the Word of Life it only points at , as Israel did after the Brazen Serpent , and dance about it in their Idolatrous hearts as the God that must save and deliver out of Egypt . But , 3. Were that true , yet howbeit we own the Word of God to be as truly and properly called the Word of God as in truth it is so , and give to that still its own due proper Name of the Word of God somewhat more then yourselves do , who call that by the Name of , and make that Title of the Word of God the very proper Name of another thing , which is not it , but as inferiour to it , as the Effect is to the Cause it came from , viz. the outward Letter * or Scripture , that came forth from it , and is but a Copy and Declaration or Images of it , as much in worth and dignity below it , as the painted Picture of a fire or a man on a Wall is to the true fire or Person which they do but outwardly represent . And 4. As for the Writing or Scripture , which thou sayest we deprive of its proper Name , because we call it not the Word of God , and by all those glorious Titles and Epithites thou stilest it by , which we confesse are due to the Word , ( viz. ) Light , Living , powerful , Quickning , Foundaiton , most Perfect Rule , and many more , as we shall see anon , thou sayest most falsly in that , for these are as truly due , so properly due to , and the Proper Names of the Word it self only , of which the Writing is but a Writing or meer Scriptural Declaration , and not the Proper Name , nor Properties of the Scriptures . I.O. Thou tellest , Ep. pag. 30. That the whole truth about the Word of God ( which thou falsly Slanderest us as confusedly opposing ) thou hast endeavoured to comprize in thy Theses . Reply . Thy Asserting that the Scripture ought to be called the Word of God as its proper Name , and that it is in esse reali & cognoscibili the Word of God , and known so to be , and consequently the Light , Foundation , Rule , and whatever else the Word is known to be , which is the main matter thou affirmest and puzlest thy self to prove against us , is so far from being the whole Truth about the Word of God , that it hath no Truth at all in it , but in plain Truth is wholly a Lye , in esse reali & cognoscibili also , to all , but such as know not ( as thy self dost not in this point ) either what they say , or whereof they affirm . J. O. Thou sayest thou compleatest in thy Theses the Doctrine of the Scripture , concerning the Scripture . Reply . Thy Doctrine concerning the Scripture , which is , that it is the Word of God , and known so to be , and is to be called , or else it s stript out of its own proper Name ; this is not the Doctrine of the Scripture concerning it self , but thy own Doctrine which though thou dignifie it with the Title of Pro Scripturis in thy Latine Title Page , is more Con & Anti , then either Cum or Pro ; yea , much more against , then either according to , or for the Scriptures . * I.O. Thou speakst of the Quakers as altogether rejecting the Word of God , i. e. ( with thee ) the Scripture as to its whole use , & of spoiling the holy Scriptures of All Vse , Authority & Perfection ; * And as those who if things had succeded according to their desires , would no doubt long since have have utterly rejected them . Yea , as those , who wish them quite blotted out , that all men might more attend to the Light within themselves . Reply . Though what Use , Authority and Perfection the Scripture is owned by us to be of , will appear more anon in its proper place , yet that we deny it not to have an Authority and Perfection and precious Use I here declare to the undeceiving of such as are deceived by thy Deceits and Lyes ; much lesse do we reject , as thou falsly objects against us , the Word of God it self , which is a greater matter , and of more moment then the Scripture , as to its whole Vse ; and in proof of it against thy self , that we own the very Bible and Letter to be of use , and do also much use it as occasion is , I shall here Cite I O. to give account to I.O. of this Lye , that against I.O. I O. himself hath forged . Yea , I shall go no further at present then to thy self , who ( as in at least Twenty things more in thy self-confounding Fardel thou dost ) confutest thy self as to this Lye , in those very parcels above quoted . For mark , Art not thou the man , who as brisk as thou art in bedirting us with this Slander of rejecting the Scripture ( which thou falsly callest the Word of God ) as to all its use , its whole use , and that altogether , could we have had our Wills , yet to the Contradicting of thy self which is as ordinary with thee as to eat and drink , confessest and Commendest us thus far before all ? as follows in thy Latine piece , where thy words Englished are to this purpose ; Ex. 1. S. 7. That the Quakers professe the Holy Scriptures to contain a certain Revelation of Gods Will , and so far to have come forth from God as it proceeded from that inward Light which was from Christ in those who wrote those Books which ye name the Scriptures . And Ex. 5. S. 18. That the Quakers acknowledge the Scriptures to contain a Manifestation of the Will and Mind of God , both in respect of those who wrote them , and of those also to whom they were delivered from the beginning ; and that this Declaration therein held , proceeded from the Spirit of Christ which was so with the Writers thereof , that they could declare the infallible Truth ; and that the things written therein are an undoubtedly true Declaration of the Mind of God ? And dost thou not add thus much , That thus far we are right , and that none that own them thus far , can altogether reject the Scriptures , unlesse he will declare himself to be self-condemned , and that we will not easily yield to a Renouncing of this Confession ? Is all this then that thy self Confessest of us the Quakers , whom thou Condemnest for utter rejecting the Scripture consistent with such an utter rejecting it as thou Chargest them with ? Dost not here clear the Quakers out of thy own mouth , out of which thou Condemnest them , for the same thou clearest them in , to the Condemning of thy self to be one out of whose one and the same mouth comes to the same men , Blessing and Cursing , Excusing and Accusing for the same thing ? Doth any good Fountain send forth sweet Water and bitter at the same time ? Is not thy Tongue an unruly Member , which thy self can'st tame no better then therewith to blesse God , and men too that are made after Gods Image , as owners of the Scriptures , and yet to Curse them with thy Lyes as denyers thereof when thou hast done ? Art thou not herein right Baalam like , who for the Preferments-sake from which God kept him , would sain have Cursed Israel with his Divinations as thou dost with thy Divinity Disputations , and yet was against his will forced to forbear , and to his own shame to blesse them altogether ? Object . Oh but ( quoth I.O. ) no matter what the Quakers confesse of the Scripture now ; no doubt had things fallen out accordinn to their desire , and if People could have born the denyal of it , who bore such respect to the Scripture , that they would have flown with fury on the Quakers Pates , if they should have seemed to deny it , the Quakers from whom the fear of that more then the force of Truth forces that Confession , Proculdubiò Jamdudum rejecissent , had doubtlesly Rejected them utterly long ago , Ex. 3. S. 19. Reply . This is not so true not well-grunded a Surmise as this , viz. No matter how the Priests fawn , own the Kings , Protectors , Parliaments or Powers still that are in present Being , to save their Standings in their present Places and Preferments ; No heed's to be given to their Crouchings Cringing and Humble Representations ; No doubt but as things fall out , and succeed to the serving of their Interest , they will turn still to what best serves their turns , and have , Exceptis excipiendis , been generally known to have done so now long ago , even from Henry the Eighths time to this very day . As for the Quakers , could they have dissembled so as ye do for fear of mans Fury , they might have escaped many , if not all those furious Fallings of your bloudy mad-brain'd Parish-Professors upon their Pares , and have saved Oxford and Cambridge that labour & pains , they more like Fiends , then Friends of Truth , have been at to persecute them long since also . Again . I.O. Dost not thou say 't is evident enough that some of us Read the Holy Scripture in Private , or at least Remember what we have Read or Heard out of it , and for the most part carry the Holy Bible about with us , and that in our Digladiations or Disputes we very often rehearse and urge the words of the Scriptures ; and that the reason why we own Translations is , because being not learn'd farther then our Mother Tongue , we shall then deprive our selves of all use of the Scriptures , which we are loath to do ? Which of these two I O's . must we believe ? Or if it be but one I.O. ( as no doubt it is ) divided against himself , and telling two contrary Tales , whereof but one can be true ; which of his two Testimonies must men give credit to ? That wherein he sayes we strive to bereave men of All Vse of the Scripture , and count it odious and abominable to have Heresies , Errour , false Doctors and Doctrines Convicted and Confuted out of it ; Or that clean Contrary one , wherein he tells all men that we use it so as to Read it in Private , Remember what we Read , or Hear of it ; Carry it about with us , use it , and urge out of it in our Disputes , and are shy of denying it to be Translated into English for our use , least we should be deprived of All that Vse of it our selves , which we are willing to make . For my part , let others do what they will , I have found I.O. telling so many Lyes , when in his malice , he talkes against the Quakers , that I shall rather take that for Truth now , which against his envious lying self he here talks for them ; for some Vse , and that not a little himself here affirms we make of the Scriptures ; and in other places quotes many Scriptures out of which we argue against our Opposers ; and if it be never so little use it s enough to stop his mouth out of his own mouth , who sayes we utterly reject the Scriptures as to All its Vse , for he that rejects it as to its Whole use , or All its use , must be one that makes no use of it at all . And if I. O's . Testimony had been only , that we deny many ill uses of it , that himself and other Scribes make , that spend and take up more time in scraping and scribling for it , then take care to live the life of it , and that wrest it to their own ruine , he had said the Truth ; Or had he said we deny many of those good lifes , that many make of it , he had much lessened his Lye and his Folly in it ; but because we own it not as useful to all those extraordinary , weighty and mighty lifes , which he sayes falsly are to be made of it , which indeed are to be made only of the Eternal , Internal Spirit , Word and Light it came from ; to say we deny all Vses of it , as if it were good , and profitable , and useful , and fit for nothing , this renders his Lye the more lyable to all mens view , and himself to be as blind as one that can see no difference between staring and stark mad . What I. O. is that which is not said to be good for all things , thereupon said to be good for nothing ? If I should say soft Wax is not useful to stop hot Ovens with , must it straitway be thrown away ? and must it be taken for Granted , that I say it s not good to Seal with , or that its useful for nothing ? That may be good to Cut and Kill ( as a Knife ) that when it hath so done , can't quicken , nor heal , nor save , nor cure ; The Letter kills , as an Executing Instrument , but the Spirit only gives the Life . And whereas thou sayest we wish it blotted out , that men may come to the Light within , in which is the life ; Nay stay I. O. no hast to hang true men , we would have all come to the Light and Life within indeed , no such hast yet of the Scriptures going hence though old it will wax once and wear away ; there 's many pretious Uses , though not all the Eminent ones thou talkest of to be made of it before it go hence ; One whereof is that very thing upon the account of which thou falsly sayest we wish it blotted out , viz. That men may come to the Light within , which the Scripture is so far from hindering any from coming to ( but only that the blind Porers in it with their natural Eyes , cannot see Wood for Trees ) that it sides with us in helping to call People to the Light in the Heart , which thing is as well the end of its being written , as it was the end of Paul , and Iohn's , and all the Prophets Ministry by word of mouth , Act 26.17 , 18. 1 Ioh. 1.1 , 5 , 6 , 7. And is the end of all our Ministring now , as we are moved of the Lord , by Voice or Writing ; the Letter bids look to the Light , as that which leads on to the Life , but both Letter and Light are a cloud to the Egyptians , that pursued them , which to Israel , that obeyed it , was a help . And as it serves with us to call to the Light , so before it passe away , it must be used against them , to send them packing first that have Abused it , as thou hast done , and to accuse as a Witnesse against them such as have owned it as their Rule and Foundation yet lived and built so much ( as ye have done ) beside it . And as Christ said to the old Scripture - searchingScribes , Joh. 5. that would never come to him the Life , whom they Testified of ; so say I to you of the same Seed , Do not think that Christ by his Light , within you only , whereby ye are made as all men are , who have not the Law in a Letter , a Law before God to your selves , will accuse you to the Father , ye have another that accuses you for your Vanities and Deceits , even Moses and the Apostles and Prophets Writings , in whom ye trust to get Life ; for if you had believed them , you would not have belyed , but beleeved in and obeyed the Light and Word in the Heart , which they call you to , for the Scriptures testifie of that ; but fith you believe not their Testimony to the Light , how can we look that by our Words ye should come to believe in the Light it self . So that ye stand Condemned , and must be Judged by the Law or Light within , as well as such as are without the Law in a Letter without ; and fining under and against the Law in the Letter , by the very Letter of the Law , throw boasting , and yet breaking of which , ye dishonour God much more then the Heathen do , Rom. 2. Ye must be condemned also . So that the Scripture is of much use yet , and we are free it should stand , and not be blotted out , that by the Testimony of it , which is one and the same with ours to the Light , ye might be ( if yet it may be ) brought to look to the Law of Christ , which ( and not the Letter ) is the Light and Life ; but if you will not come to Christ and his Light in you , that ye may have the Life ; it s all of a price to you , whether the Scripture stand or be blotted out , for your Names are not ( while ye are Enemies to the Light ) written there for Life , but as yet blotted out even by the Scripture , while it abides unblotted out , from under Heaven . I.O. Ex. 2. S. 26. Thou sayest , The Quakers little regard the understanding of the Scripture , and this is one of their Eminent Deceits so long as they have the Words they are well enough without the sense , as nothing appertaining to them . Reply . Saving I. O's . fine figment in this matter , which may be more manifested in its proper place , howbeit we are well satisfied without so many several silly Senses and mis-meanings of it , as are ministred cut by the unlearned Ministers , that know not the Mind of the Lord , nor ever shall , while they lean to their own meer Natural empty Understandings , and lye-poring in the Letter , as they do without the Spirit , which only Receives and Reveals the deep things of God , and opposing the Light that only opens it , yet we are not against the true sense and meaning of the Spirit , which expounds the Mysteries , and shews the Secrets thereof to those few Babes that fear the Lord , which are hidden from the worldly wise and prudent ; but whether the Renowned Rabbies Preach for prize , or hold their peace , we neverthelesse still have true meanings and mind of Christ. I.O. Ex. 2. S. 21 , 22. That they affirm it is not lawful for any to Interpret the Scriptures , or give the sense thereof . And , S. 22. That altogether with the Interpretation it self , they reject , damne , curse all Mediums of Opening Scriptures , the weighing the Words and Phrases , and daily Prayer ; and comparing of divers places together ; that the Opening of hard Places , the clearing and proving of the Truth , the Conviction and Confutation of Heresies , Errours , false Doctors and Doctrines , the Edifying any by Instructions and Exhortations , and all the other ends of lawful Interpretation of the Scriptures , are odious and abomination to them ; they not only prosecute with Enmity all Expositions of the Scripture by word of mouth in private Families , Meetings , Churches , Schools of Believers , to the Opening of the Sense of the Word , and the giving of Knowledge by the Scripture it self , but also as little esteem and most Childishly defame both Commentaries , and all other Books wherein part of the Scripture is Interpreted , or any Truth cleared or confirmed out of it ; or the Faithful perswaded by Exhortations to Holinesse , and Gospel Obedience , or men are Instructed in any other manner whatsoever in the Knowledge of God. Reply . Whether all these stories of I.O. which I have here put together , do more savour of the French Galimafrey , or wild-Irish bonni-clabber , I 'le not determine ; but I am sure they are an unsavoury Mess of Omnigatherums , made up of many sorts of lying Reproaches , that have no Consistency with the Truth , which would far better have become a Doctor of Divinity to have told of the Devil himself , had he been accusing of him , who is the false Accuser of the true Brethren , rather then such a legend of Lyes as lye here legenda , legible to all that know them , of the Quakers . I cannot say of this indeed , as of T.D. his doings in his way of sharp shooting out his false Tales against us , that it will sound much to our shame in a Countrey Church , because it s well nigh all laid out , not to say lyed out in the Latine Tongue ( though only Englished here ) but it will ring such a Peal in the University Colledges , among the Iunior sort of Haters of whom God loves , and among all ( save the lack-Latine-Country-Clergy men ) against the Quakers , as will make them prick up their Ears and listen ( that they may learn how to lye against them also ) more then ever they did to the Quakers themselves , that of them they might learn the Truth ; but the best on 't is , though here 's a Nest of them together , if that would do any good to I.O. or hurt to the Quakers , yet by Lyes and Deceits none ever did , or ever must prevail against the Truth . Yet to all this thou addest , That we turn the Church of God into a Hogsty ; And that we are great Reproachers of that Divine Goodnesse that gave it , in setting so slight by Interpretations of the Scripture in order to the understanding of it : To all which yet I shall answer no otherwise then thus briefly and soberly as followes . Viz. We acknowledge Gods goodnesse in giving it , and deny not all exposition of the matters in it , provided it be by them , as they are so moved , that live in the light and spirit of God that gave it forth by holy men , which onely opens it aright and knows its own , and searcheth the deep things of God , that are laid down in it , in the writings and meetings and Churches and Schools of the Saints and Believers ( which wot you well are not your Christ-Church Colledges nor Academical Covents , but the Quakers Publick Congregations , where I have sometimes had and heard more Scripture truly opened in an hour , than in some Steeple houses in a year , any more than we do any true Translations of it out of our Tongue into another , of which matter about Translation sith thou sayest we covertly conceal our counsel , thou mayest have it more fully perhaps anon , when I have first wiped away all thy lyes of us out of the way . But because we do indeed , though owning the spirit and spiritual mens expositions , yet deny the naturally wise mens cloudy conceptions , mysty meanings , shallow-brain'd senses , and excentrick Expositions , of the things of the spirit , which he knows not , as they lye in the letter which he knows as little , as useful or profitable , much more as so necessary as thou wouldest make this natural mans mighty doings about the Scripture , who is he indeed and not the Quakers that for want of such spiritual learning as naturally unlearned Peter had , wrests it into strange senses to his own ruine , and because we do not childishly ( as thou sayest we do ) but soberly and justly complain of those vast confused Bombasting Bumbles of blindnesse of the cloudy Clergies composing , viz. Comentaries and other Books thrust out upon pretence of clearing the Scripture , which is clearer then they are , but in truth to the thickening of the Ayr , that the Sun shines not clearly thorow it , thereupon to say that we reject , damn and curse all manner of opening Scripture , and that of daily prayers to God ; this is a businesse of thy own bruiting about , whereby to render us odious among thy Oxonian fellow students , that they may reject and damn and curse them thence whom God hath not cursed , and against whom none of Baalams inchantments can prevail : for we own the daily prayers of such as God owns , who pray in the spirit , though we know God hears not sinners , nor the prayers of the wicked , nor of such as turn their ear from hearing his Law , which is Light , in their own hearts , their prayers are abomination to him : and we own the openings of the Scripture by the spirit that gave it forth , when he opens the mouth or guides the pens of any that have the minde of Christ to utter any of it , as it lies in the letter hid from the natural mind , unto others ; and to say this is to turn the Church into a hogsty , as if there could possibly by no Religion nor good manners nor sheep like innocent demeanour , nor any thing but meer bruitishnesse , beastlinesse and swinishnesse any where in the World , but where men sit under the Ministry of the Preachings , Logical Expoundings , Writings , Ecclesiastical Rhetorick and other Reacks of those fleshly and earthly minded spiritual men , Doctors and Commentators , &c. that have long ago got the parent and ingrossed all that work of expounding Scripture for money to themselves ; this I utterly dény , and I also affirm that if that Crew and their Creatures be the Christians , and the Church of God ( as they call themselves , as if the Quakers were all Hereticks , that do not own them ) then the more ado men make to be Christians in name , the further off from the nature of Christ , and as the old Proverb is , the nearer the Church , the further from God , there being nor such fordid stinking sinks for wickednesse , filth , pride , lust , persecution , scoffing , hating God and good , ungodlinesse and all manner of uncleannesse to be seen in all the Christian World again , as are easie to be seen in Cathedrals , Colledges , Academies , &c. where men sit at the Fountains and Well-heads of Divinity and Nurseries of Learning and Religion ( as they call them ) and directly under the daily dispensations of their Doctors Oral and Scriptural Divinity Disputations and Expositions . And whereas I O. makes a challenge to have it tryed between them and the Quakers , saying in the next Section after that , wherein he saves the Quakers sleighting their Interpretations do no lesse than turn the Church into a Hogsty , thus * J. O. For if the Experience of all Ages of all Christians that ever were , if those things which themselves see , behold , or hear daily , were of any weight or moment , they , the Quakers , would blush to deny the use , necessity , and fruit of the solemne Preaching of the Word , Interpretation of the Scripture made whether by word of Mouth , or Writing : Let us take a view of each Flock , both that , which although they enjoy the Word , yet is destitute of its Interpretation and also that which , together with the Word of God , enjoyes also the other means of Gods worship , which consists very much in the Interpretation of the Word ; if now the Tree be so , & be known only by its fruits , then that will appear the good one , which hath brought forth those fruits which the legal Interpretation of the Scripture hath every where produced , or brought forth . Reply . Let it be well heeded , First , That by the Word of God here , I O. intends the Scripture ; And Secondly , That by Legal Interpretation he intends not such as is ( as I said before ) used and own'd by the Quakers , ( viz. ) That which is only in the Light , and in the Spirits movings , that moved to write the Scripture , but such as is made among the Naturalists and Schollars in their Academical Imaginations , and by the Priests in their Parishes , and then I am here ready to answer his Challenge , and I say a Match , let it be so . First , Let both Flocks be viewed , the Quakers , and the Parish People ; I will not say but that among them that are called Quakers , that frequent the Places of their Publick Speaking , there are many , not only by reason of whom , but also by whom the way of Truth that the Quakers walk in , is evil Spoken of ; but I O. either hath , or should have more wit , and sense , and reason , then to account the Routs , that are made by a rabble of rude ones that frequent the Quakers Meetings , to render them odious with their odious Carriages , to the Quakers themselves ; that he ought , Non Trepidantibus sed Tripudiantibus vitio vertere , qui vertunt seria ludo , & ludunt cum sacris , &c. to impute not to the Quakers , but to Schollars , and Apprentices , and Prateis , and Players , and ungodly Scoffers , and Children of the Devil , that make a Mock and a May game of Holy Matters , and would never band so bitterly against the Quakers and their Meetings , if there were not something of God in both : Secondly , In their Meetings there may be some Antick tricks done by some that have run out from the Truth and lost their Conditions , and being not stedfast in their Watch to the Light , have degenerated into Darknesse and Delusion ; by whom some things have been done , and many more then T.D. mentions , that are not owned by the Quakers , to whom , they are wise men the while , that blame the Quakers for it , who can't prevent it , as Vice-Chancellors and Proctors might young Schollars rudeness , and Magistrates the Peoples bruitishnesse in Parishes , but will not . And Thirdly , In the silent Meetings of the Quakers , there may be some that get no further then the outward Form of Godlinesse , and not grow out into the Power ; and here and there one that may be over-taken with a fault , which if they be , it shall be found with a witnesse by the Wicked , that Watch for their Halting , and will make more of one Malefactor that 's found among all the Quakers , then of 40 Drunkards , Swearers , Cursers , Scurrilous Scoffers and Scorners , Gamesters , Couzeners , Cheaters , Lyars , Laughers , Light-Talkers , and Lewd-Livers in a Parish ; and then many Scores of High-way-men , Theeves , Fellons , Murderers , and hainous Malefactors that are Hanged and Trussed-up every year , that live and die under the Ministry of the Church of England . But make the worst that can be made of the Quakers Crimes , if they were 40 fold worse then they are , or rather single out the very Excrements and Dreggs that depend that way , to say something against ; yet Hoc astquid nihitest , that something is nothing in comparison of that open prosessed Prophannesse and Iniquity that abounds beyond the bounds of Modesty , yea of ordinary Immodesty , and of Impudency it self among the Parish People , where there is such a constant Custom , and deal of Expounding of , and Preaching from the Scrirture by the Ministerss of their own meanings , upon it ; in which meer Anthropo Theological Labours of the Clergy , the extraordinary high Acceptance of which , by the Powers , and Parliaments , and Priests each from other is Expressed and Accosted ordinarily with the Common Complement of Great Thanks for their Great Pains ; and as eminently fruitful and Profitable as thou professest it to be , it is evidently more profitable to the Preachers Purses , then the Peoples Persons , whether we Consider the Bereavings of poor mens Bodies of their Right , or the Successelessnesse of thereof to their Souls , which from year to year , are little or nothing the better for the blasted Ministry of these Word-stealing Money-Mongers , and Self-Sending Prophets , which the Lord is against , as fast as they run in his Name , and Blesses not , but sayes they shall not profit People at all ; and as apparent it is they do not , as 't is that God sayes they shall not . For from Generation to Generation , what Fruit is found in the Parish Churches of the Popes Constituting ? and what successe to Sanctification and Salvation from Sin , by the Great pains of the Successive Sermonists of several sorts , that Simonically have got their Gifts at University , and as freely given them out , as they have freely received them ( if so to do be to Sell them for more Money then they cost them there ) is seen by the true Seers , who can see little l●sse Ungodlinesse , and Worldly Lusts , and Moral Wickednesse , since the Old Homilies were Read by the Non-Preaching Animatum Curates were Succeeded by the Powerlesse Preachers , that are more Reformed from the more grosse Idolatry and Superstitions of those dismal Seasons . Is there any Parish any better mannered then in Ages above ? Doth not every Priest that hath stood 10 , 20 years in his Parish , leave it for the most part as Blind , Ignorant , Dissolute , Lascivious , Rev●lling , Riotous , Luxurious as he found it ? whether he dies among them , or departs from them to a bigger booty ? A Coming together there is for Customes sake in their Best Cloathes , as finely as they can afford to do , when their ( supposed ) Sabbath comes about in its turn ; a sound comes from a Money-Merchants mouth , and enters in at one Ear of the People , as fast as it can get out at the Other ; and while it stayes , it Swims in the Head , but sinks not down to Renew the Heart ; and some Psalms may be Sung to the Praise of him , whom the Dead in Sin , that live Sin , cannot praise ; and so there 's an end of the businesse for that day , till it come again ; till when , Hell breaks loose , and the Devil is served for the most part all the Week after ; insomuch that it is but for the Kettle to upbraid the Pot with its black ugly Hue , for the Priest and his People to make Narratives of the worst of that Naughtinesse , that is found anong the very worst of those that are own'd as one in Fellowship by the Quakers , and their Ministry . Secondly , Let both Flocks he viewed ( viz. ) the Young and Old Schollars at Universities ( to begin near home at Oxford and Cambridge ) behold those that sit under your Grave Divine Doctorly Expositions , and at the Ocean of Books that are bound down ( beside what a number each hath in his private Musing place ) by your Library Benches , And the Quakers that sit in silence , and wait only on the Lord ; let both Flocks be tryed by their Fruits , and see which most resembles Christ ; and whether the Quakers carriage , or the Schollars , since the Quakers came among them , have been most Innocent , Vninjurious , and Harmlesse ; and which look most like the Swine , Wolves , Bears , Tygars , &c. and which most like the Fold and Lambs of Christ. And which of these Two ( viz. ) the Quakers that have the Word , and yet are Retired from you to wait upon God alone for their Teaching , and to learn of him at his own mouth and light in silence in all Subjection , not making such a noise as ye empty Casks do in your busie brains about Formal set times , set by the will of man , for Expositions and Interpretations , nor in Tumbling ore of Tomes , Bulkie Books , and Contentious Commentators ; or your Selves and your University Schollers , that make such an infinite ado in your Inventions about Interpreting things ( sometimes ) that would be ten fold plainner then they now are , if Natural Schoolmen had let them alone , who when in aperto & facili posita est salus , the way to Life lyes as plainly laid down and declared by the Letter in a thousand places , as it does in that one , Tit. 2.12 , 13 , so that there need be no such heaps of Books as there are , more bulky then all the Bible , to open some one small Book of it , do draw Cloudes over the clear Face of it by interposing and imposing on People the Thicket of your own Thoughts , and darken the open Counsel of it by your Writings without End , and by your Words without Knowledge . I say , which of these Two , the Quakers or your Schollers , bring forth Fruits most meet for God , and like those of the Spirit , Peace , Meeknesse , Patience , Temperance , &c. Gal. 5. Let them be the Good Trees , and so known and owned to be by their Fiuits ; and let them be the true Flock of Christ , and be by us , as I am sure such are by himself accounted as his Sheepfold . And which abounds most in those Fruits and Works of the Flesh there spoken of also , viz. uncleannesse , lasciviousnesse , wrath , hatred , Drunkennesse , Revellings , and such like ; and which wallows most in that kind of mire , let them be the Hogs and Swine , and not Christs Flock and Fold , but he held hence forward for a Hog-sty . Now for my part if I were to judge by what Fruits have come forth in and from our Two Nurseries of Religion of latter years , and as well in , and from Oxford it self , as Cambridge ; and how many of them in the time of I. O's . Vice-Chancellourship there , I. O. knows as well as I ( even such as are not sit to be named among Christians ) and what Fruits of Righteousnesse have been found among the Quakers both there and elsewhere , who have suffered innocently , and ( as to rendering evil for evil ) patiently under them and others , I could quickly determine the matter ; but sith its like I.O. will hardly let me be Judge in my own Case , lest I cleave too much to my own Cause and Company , let such Books as are Extant of the Schollers Misdemeanours against the Quakers in their own Meetings , who have been alwayes bound to their Good behaviour towards the other by that of God in their Consciences in the midst of all their abuses to the Quakers ; and then let all men Judge which Generation of men , the Quakers or University Schollers and their Respective Assemblies do most exactly resemble the deportment of Swine in their Hog-styes . Besides those sundry Relations that are Extant in Print of the Imprisonments , Whippings , and other Persecutions of the innocent Servants of the Lords sending among them to warn them of their Wickednesse at Cambridge ; there are Two at least ( viz. ) one stiled , A true Testimony of the Zeal of the Oxford Professors and University-men , put forth by R.H. And one much more lately under the Hands of 8 Witnesses , stiled , A true Relation of some of the Sufferings inflicted upon the Quakers , as the Fruits of the Evil doers ( viz. ) the Proctors and Schollars at Oxford , in which who reads may see the matters of Fact , to which I Refer such as are minded to be Judges between me and I.O. ( an Oxford man ) in this Case , who ( if they be not such as are loath to call their Brothers Theeves , and their Sisters Swine ) will assuredly from those Arch-Abominable and Antick-Actions conclude from thence with me , the Actors and Abbettors look much more ( then like the Sheep of Christ ) like Foxes , and Bears , and Wolves , and Dogs , and Wilde Boares , and Swine . However , whether it shall stand with I.O. or nay , it matters not ; I shall from thence infer my Conclusion . That if Innocency , Quietnesse , Patience under Sufferings , Temperance , Godlinesse , Reproving Wickednesse , and becoming fools for Christ , exposing themselves for Truths ' sake as Signs and laughing stocks to an Adulterous Generation , be the Characters of such men , as the Scripture calls Swine ; then that House and Family of the Quakers is become a Hog-stie ; But unless turning , and tearing , and renting , and trampling , under feet , when Pearls and holy things are held out to them ; and devouring , and hurting to death , and tying Maids Arm to Arm together , and tumbling them into Graves , and dirting them , and dragging them into Pools , and setting them on their Heads with their heels upwards , and Pumping & well-nigh stifling them , Mocking , Stoning , Scourging , putting poor innocent Strangers ( that came in love to Truth and them ) into Cages , and out of their Coasts ; and haling the Quakers out of their own quiet Meetings by the hair of their Heads , and breaking the Doors to pieces , and Windows where Quakers meet , and carrying away the Keys , and knocking tenters in the key-holes , pulling up part of the houses , squeezing them in their passing to and fro between the doors , turning up the forms and seats where they sit , and like wild Horses and Colts riding upon the backs of men and women , and smoaking their Roomes with Gun-powder & Squibs , and stamping rudely like Tavern-hunters in their Holy meetings , and crying out give us Beer and Tobacco , and Wenches , and Whores ; and bringing in strong Beer , and drinking to them , and for refusing to pledge , throwing it on their Cloaths , and Bands , and powring it down their Necks , and singing Bawdy Songs , and Cursing , and Sweating , and such things as would be counted as favouring more of Bedlams and Swine , then Saints , if Quakers should ever have done so in their Masse-Houses , and obscaene Carriage toward Women , puffing and blowing with Tobacco-pipes in their Mouths ; raising Doctrines and Uses , and Points about Coblers and Tinkers , and Tobit and his Dog , offering to put their hands under Womens Aprons , asking if the Spirit was not there ; and many more such filthy , stinking , sordid actions , as Hooting , Yelling , Laughing , any thing to hinder the Hearing of what was spoken of Truth ; drawing some into Colledges , and there most unseemly and inhumanly abusing them ; and this not only Tolerated and Connived at by Officers , that should have punish'd it ; but also Countenanced too much in part by some of them . I say , Unlesse these boarish , bruitish Gestures , Cum muliis aliis qua nunc praescribere longum est , be the behaviour of Christs Sheep , then , for all the uncessant pains of Interpreting of the Scripture at the Well-head of Religion , and for all I. O's . saying , That if what we see , and daily hear , would sway us , we would be ashamed to deny the fruit of Expoundings of the Scripture to be best , where they are most Expounded , as they are ( pro forma ) in the Universities , as fair and far from it as they seem to be to themselves , they look more like Hog-styes to the view of men after Gods heart , and the Children of these Mothers more like Herds of Swine , then the Places and Persons of the people called Quakers do , among whom there 's not such a busling , and such a businesse about mens Books in order to it , nor such Clamorous noises about Opening the Scriptures , as is among the Scribes , that are Strangers to them ; but the words of the wise , even of Wisdom it self , Christ Iesus , are heard in quiet by them that are Wise , more then the Cry of him that Ruleth among Fools . And as for what Fruits of saving Knowledge of God , and Righteousnesse and Holinesse of Truth are abounding in most Academies , Towns , Cities , and Places in all the Reformed parts of Christendom more or better then is to be seen among Turks and Heathens ( unlesse Couzening , Cheating , Lying , Drunkennesse , and some such like as abound more among Christians , then Turks that never talk out of the Scripture , be better ) hath been seen by some Quakers , and how the Name of Christian stinks more then it would do among the Gentiles for the sake of such as Preach , and Hear , and Read , and Expound , and boast of the Scripture , and yet break them , and name the Name of Christ without his Nature : But what doings there are in other Nations , and the Preaching places and Nurseries thereof , to which these of our Nation are not inferiour in silth ; I shall say no more here , but let them passe , as matters which being Extra nos , are parum , or nihil , or miaus ad nos , of lesse moment to us then our own ; Concluding my Return to this particular Challenge of I.O. with his own words ( mutatis mutandis , additis addendis ) a little amplified , and the Subjects or Persons , of whom they are Spoken , Altered , and Substituting our Modern Academies , and their Masters , Doctors , Divines , and other Students , and the whole Rabble of Rabbies there in the room of that University at Tiberias , which I O. talks against in the words of one Dr. Lightfoot , together with his own , and the Iewish Rabbies , Gemarists and Massorites pertaining thereunto ; as they are to be read in the 240 , 241 , 242 , 245 , 246 , 247 , pages of I. O's . English part ; the Censure he passes upon them , being no other then what exactly accrews to the Universities universally throughout Christendom , from whence come the whole Crew of Clergy-men , that count themselves , and are counted to be the Clearers of Christs Truth to all other Christian Creatures ; And what I. O. sayes of the Massorites of that Accademy , is a clear Character of these corrupted , and earth corrupting Coveats . I. O Chap. 4. S. 13. Whilst they keep the Scriptures we shall never want Weapons out of their own Armoury for their destruction ; like the Philistine , they carry the Weapon that will serve to cut off their own Heads . Let us then a little , without prejudice or passion , consider who , or what these men are , who are the supposed Authors of all Knowledge and Godlinesse . 1. Men they are who have not the Word of God committed to them in a pecullar manner , as their Forefathers , Prophets and Apostles had of old , and many have now , being no part of his Church or People , but are only outwardly Professors and Possessors of the Letter without just Right or Title to it ; utterly uninteressed in the Promise of the Communication of the Spirit while they so have it , which is the Great Charter of the Churches preservation of Truth , Isa. 59.21 . 2. Men so remote from a right understanding of the Word , or the Mind and Will of God therein , that they are desperately engaged to oppose his Truth in the Books which themselves enjoy in all matters of importance unto the Glory of God , or the good of their own Souls from the beginning to the ending , Scuffling for the Book itself , but persecuting the Life in them where it is ; The foundation of whose Religion is Infidelity ; and one of their chief Fundamentals , an Opposition to the Gospel in the Quakers , whom they glory to fight against , and think they serve God in opposing with what spite they can . 3. Men under the special Curse of God and his Vengeance , upon the account of the blood of his dear Son in his Saints . 4. Men all their dayes feeding themselves with vain Fables , and mischievous Devices against the Gospel , labouring to set up a New Religion under the Name of the Old ( when the Old they hate , as Ier. 6. ) in despight of God , so striving to wrestle it out with his Curse to the utmost . 5. Men of a profound Ignorance in all manner of Learning & Knowledge , but only what concerns their own dunghil Traditions ; as appears in their stories , filled with innumerable sopperies . 6. Men so addicted to such monstrous Figments , as appears in their Talmuds , as their Successors of after Ages will be ashamed of , yea for the most part Idolaters . Now I dare leave it to the Iudgement of any Godly prudent person , not addicted to Parties and Names , who is at all acquainted with the importance , not of the Hebrew Vowels and Accents ( but the Light and Spirit the Quakers call to ) unto the right understanding of the Scripture , with whatever influence their present Fixation hath into the literal sense , they ( not knowing the Spiritual ) embrace , whether we have not very clear Evidence and Testimony , yea undeniable and unquestionable , to cast the rise and spring of all the Irreligion in the Nations upon this sort of men ; so far are they from bettering : things by their Interpretations . S. 16. Recount I pray from the first Foundation of Universities ( throw CHRISTENDOM ) and what do you find , but a sort of Men being made Mad with ( or above ) the Pharisees , bewitching and bewitched with Traditions , blind , crafty , raging ; pardon me not ( for I shall ask none ) if I say Magical ( if Simon Magus was so in thinking the holy Ghost of God is to be bought with Money ) & Monstrous ? what Fools , what Sots as to such a divine Work as the Gospel ? Read and Consider how to every good Work voyd of Iudgement the great Doctors among them do behave themselves ? how seriously they do of nothing ? how childish they are in serious things ? how much deceitfulnesse , froth , venome , smoke , nothing is in their Disputations ? Insomuch that I may say truly of these , as I.O. sayes of all men , Pag. 104. Those whose Lips should keep Knowledge , that is University-men and Clergy-men as much as any , are by Nature so vain , foolish , malicious , such Lyars , adders , detracters , have spirits and minds so unsuited to spiritual things , so lyable to Alteration in themselves , and to Contradiction one to another , are so given to Impostures , and are so apt to be imposed upon , have been so shuffled and driven up and down the World in every Generation , have for the most part so utterly lost the Remembrance of what themselves are , whence they come , or whether they are to go , that I can give very little Credit to what I have nothing but their Authority to rely upon for , without any Evidence from the nature of the thing its self . CHAP. III. Having Cleared the Quakers from sundry of those Calumnies thou falsly castest upon-them as concerning their Carriage toward the Scriptures as if they were Enemies , Haters , and Reproachers of it , and such-like , who in Truth are its truest Friends , in the former Chapter ; I come on to Consider some of thy Cloudy Conjectures and Conceits concerning the Bounds of the Canon ( as ye call it ) thereof ; the Hebrew Punctation , and thy Asserted Integrity of both that and the Greek Texts of it , without any variation to a very Title : Concerning the Canon of which thou Writest as follows ; JOhn Owen . Pag. 3. God spake of Old , or formerly in the Prophets ; From the dayes of Moses and downwards , unto the Bounding and Consignation of the Canon delivered to the Judaical Church in the dayes of Ezra and his Companions , the men of the great Congregation . Reply . 1. Why sayest thou from Moses downward , &c. as if he had never done so before till then ? Did not God speak in his Prophets , and by them to the men of their several Ages from Moses upwards as well as from Moses downwards ? Did he not speak in Enooh the seventh from Adam , in Noah , in Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , Lot , and Iob , who lived before Moses ( if Catholick Tradition be to be Credited in one thing as well as another ) and whose Book , who ever Pen'd it , whether himself , or some other , for ought thou knowest was written before Mos●s , who thou thinkest wrote the first of the Scripture , either lived or wrote ? and by them , who were upright , righteous , just , and walked with God , to the wicked unrighteous Worldlings , and wantons who walked with the Devil in their Generations , who all were before Moses , as well as by Moses , and those that lived after him ? 2. Why sayest thou downwards to the Consignation and Bounding of the Canon in Ezra's days , as if between his dayes and the dayes of Christs flesh the Spirit of the Lord was straitned ( as it never is , Mic. 2. ) and God had limitted and bound up himself from manifesting his mind cut of his own mouth , to any men at all , for so many Hundred years together , because some Prophets had been moved by him to commit to Writing , or at least to permit to be Written by * others , some few of those things they saw and said concerning partly their own , and partly the after times , and other Nations ? Doth not Wisdom say of her self , That in all Ages entering into holy Souls she maketh them friends of God , and Prophets ? Wisd. 7.27 . And were there no Holy men of God in those dayes , wherein ye imagine all Gods speaking in and by any Prophets then was ceased , in and by whom he manifested his Mind as he moved them to speak and write , as immediately as he had done others before them ? And who told thee , That the Canon ( as thou call'st it ) or full standing Rule of Tryal , or infallible Touch-stone of the Old Testament Scripture , to which nothing must or might be added after it till the time of Christ in the flesh was Compleated , and , after its Consignation and Bounding , by them delivered to the Judaical Church in the dayes of Ezra ( alias Esdras ) and his Companions the men ( as of your own heads ye are pleased to term them ) of the great Congregation ? Whence hast thou these fancies of thine ? Or suppose they be not simply Suppositions , but real Truths ; whence dost thou fetch or take them to be so , but from the untrusty-Traditional-Tales of thy Forefathers , and such Iewes as are little lesse then unerring Oracles with thee , when saying ought that suits with thee ( yea , thou callest pag. 203. the Assertion of Iustin Martyr of the Iewes corrupting the Bible out of their hatred to Christians , An Incredible Figment ) yet little better , but much worse then ordinary Infidels , men feeding themselvns with vain fables , desperate cursed Opposers of Truth , mischievous in their devices against the Gospel , of a profound Ignorance in all manner of Learning and Knowledge but only what concerns their own Dunghil Traditions , addicted to monstrous Figments , bewitching , bewitched with Traditions , Idolaters , Magicians , blind , crafty , raging fools , sets , full of deceitfulness , froth , venome , smoke , nothing but faithlesnesse and infidelity it self ; what not that 's nought , where any thing issues from their most Catholick Testimony that makes against thee , Pag 241.242.244.303 ? Yea , whence knowest thou ( who art easily apt to Question , when it serves thee so to do , whether there ever were such men as the 70. and such men as the Tiberian Massorites in Rerum Natura ? pag. 243.336 . ) that ever there was such a thing in Rerum Naturâ as that Great Congregation thou art every where in thy Book so greatly taken with , and ever and anon betaking thy self to for Refuge , but only from thy putting more confidence in thy own uncertain Conjectures , together with the Catholick Tradition of the ( with thee ) creditlesse Iewes and Christians , then in the Conjectures of the Prolegomenâ , as Learned as thy self at least , who oppose thee in it ? For there 's not so much as any Scripture at all that mentions such a set Sanydrim of Ezra , Nehemia , Ioshua , Zacharia , Haggai , &c. as thou settest it down in the Book of thy own Brain , and the Counting-house of thy own conceit that there was ; pag. 302.303 . And let it be ( as it can be no more then ) imagined there was such a great Congregation , which ( it being , as not possible to know it , so nor here , nor there to mine or any mans Salvation ) I 'le not search into so far as to put my self into any Capacity of either saying or gain saying it that there was ; and to ground any as I. O. does many things upon its being so , as he but thinks , is ( as he sayes in another case , pag 293. ) to build Towns and Castles of Imaginations , which may be as easily cast down as they are erected : yet when all 's done , whence had that Sanydrim , such Authority as to confine and bound out that Canon , and Canonize some of the Writings of such Prophets as ye wot are Canonical , and Cashiere the rest of the Writings of the same Prophets , and all the Writings of some other Prophets , as of no such divine Authority , as to Command with their fellows in Gods Name as his Word , and to abrogate them as Apocryphal ( as ye speak ) and disband them from the bench of Iudicature , and to bind the sweet Influences of the holy Spirit , so as to say , O Spirit of God be silent now , blow no more , nor make any more Prophets now for these many hundred years to come , but become subject thy self to be tryed by the Touchstone of the Writings of such Prophets , as thou hast already moved to write Gods Mind , or so many at least , as it seems good to us now to Authorize and Establish into a standard for the Tryal of thy self , as well as all false Spirits ? And if I. O. say ( as he does , pag. 303. ) That was not called the Great Congregation from its Number , but Eminency of Persons ; yet I say are any Persons so Eminent ( if I.O. be not a Lyar , pag. 35. ) as to have Authority from God to Authorize and Canonize ( casting aside what they like not ) what seems good to them , into the Name ( to bespeak I. O in his own feigned phrase ) of the Word of God , that they themselves must be subject to the Authority of , and of the Rule that themselves must be Ruled by , and of the Foundation that themselves , and all others must be built on , and of the Basis of their own belief ? It is indeed ( quoth I.O. pag 35.36 . ) a Contradiction for men to say ( and if for other men then for I.O. [ say I ] who sayes the same yet sees it not ) They give Authority to the Scriptures , they Bound the Canon and deliver to the Church what it shall be , which it hath antecedently to their Charter and Concession . And again , Moreover ( to say the same of his supposed Sanydrim , that I O sayes to the digrading of the Septuagint from that high Conceit some have of them , and eminent Account some have them in , pag. 339. ) If the Ability of the men be granted , yet what security have we of their Principles and Honesty ? Oh much every way ( thinks I.O. for , though when he is pleased to speak diminitively of men , the Care and Fidelity and Pains of whom in Translating we have as good ground to believe was as great to the full , as any of that of those he Commends in Transcribing , he disparages it into Oscitancy , Inadvertency , Negligence , Ignorance , the Wisest not seeing all , and such like , pag 319. yet when he speaks of the Care , Pains and Fidelity of men in Transcribing , which is a Work as lyable to mistakes as the other , that he may keep up the honour however of his ( infallible ) Transcripts to this day , then he utters himself more Hyperbolically ; and as for Ezra and his conjectured Companions , he makes their labour to Reform the Church , and all the Corruptions crept into the Word ( as he speaks , though if the Letter were the Word it were not lyable to Corruption ) little lesse then Monstrous , and their care in restoring the Scripture to its purity ( mark ) extraordinary , pag. 171 308. Yea , of the Points , which yet he is to prove Coaevous with the Consonants , and as old as any Scripture . I doubt not ( quoth he ) but of that we shall yet manifest that they were compleated ( it should seem then that every Tittle is not now a● at first giving out of the Letter if the Vowels were incompleate till Esdros dayes ) by the men of the great Synagogue Ezra and his Companions guided by the infallible direction of the Spirit of God. I might ( as I. O. does often beg or take it ) crave leave to Answer this Conjecture with another , pag. 146. and fling back I. O's . as well as T. D's Fortè ita , with so much at least as Fortè non ; but ipse dixit , J.O. sayes , he doubts not their infallibility , so I , who had rather be silent then disparage Ezra , will add no more to I. Os Rex sum , then nil ultrae quaeio Plebeius . And now I am upon a Consideration of the Canon of the Scripture , let me here make an end with thee I.O. as concerning this Cogitation of thine about the Consignation of the Canon of both the Old , and that thou callest the New Testament ; of which New thou sayest , pag. 27. That what thou hadst spoken of the Scripture of the Old Testament , viz. as to its immediate emanation from God , and its being canonized together with it into a standard , the same must be also affirmed of the New , with this addition of advantage and preheminence above the Old , That it began to be spoken by the L O R D himself . And as for thy Canon of the outward Scriptures of both sorts , one of which thou callest the Old , the other the New Testament , after the Bounding . Compleating , and Consignation of which in their Respective Junctures and Seasons , and the delivery of it so Canonized to the Church or Churches Respectively as their Eternal , Infallible , Touchstone , Rule , Foundation , Testimony , Standard , no more must be owned on such a high Account , as it s Authorized into , as of divine Original , nor be added by either God or man , while the world stands , * I would sain find from thee ( if yet thou art able thy self to fathom to the bottom of thy own Faith , or rather Fancy in this point ) where thou findest , and whence thou foundest all thy confused Communications and crude Conceptions about this Canonization of such and such outward parcels of holy mens Writings into a Rule or Standard , and disfranchizing such and such of others , as holy as those from a standing within the Bounds of this Magna Charta , that certain Synods and supposed Sanydrims of thou knowest not whom have given , and do ( as thou deemest ) give and grant thereunto , together with them ? Where learnest thou all these Lessons but from the Lectures and lying Legends , and voluminous Lexicons of the illiterate Literatists of the world that are alwayes laying on , and loading one another with their endlesse , boundlesse , and bottomlesse Scribles about the outward Original Text and Transcriptions and Translations of the Scripture in their tedious Tomes , Talmuds , and Talmudical Traditions till they are lost from the very Letter , much more the Life it calls to , so that they have no leasure to live , or learn others to live thereafter , in the inextricable laborynth of their own Labours about it ? Who leads thee into the vain Imaginations of these things , but thy own and other mens ( well nigh innumerable , and invincible ) inventions ? What Tangles thee and others in such trifling Talkings and Treatings one to another of things that none of ye all can have any infallible Evidence , or yield to any infallible Assurance of , but a croud of Conceits , and Catholick Traditions ? with which the world , and ye in it , are so overcharged , that ye cannot contain them now without infinite , frothy and fruitlesse contendings about them , and obtruding your own Observances , imposing your own Supposings , and thrusting each upon other your own bare thred-bare Thoughts of things that ( ne flocci facit ) it amounts not to the value of a lock of Wooll ( as to Salvation ) whether they be known or not , till being throng'd and thrust into the thorny Thicket of your own Thoughts you there tear one another to pieces about the Scripture ; insomuch that I truly may , and plainly shall be so bold as flatly to Contradict what thou sayest falsly of thy Canon and Standard , since the closing and compleating of it , that t is a means to end all strife , it is rather throw the folly of its Ministers , the means of all strife and Confusion in the Christian World. Thou sayest indeed of the Writings of the Old Testament that the Canon thereof had its Consignation , Bounding , and Delivery to the Church , as its Rule , so that from thenceforth nothing Written either from Moses upward , or to Christs time downward must be admitted to be owned as Canonical , or inspired Scripture ; And thou sayest , pag. 27.28 . That God , who himself began the Writings of the Word with his own finger , after he had spoken it , appointing and approving the Writing of the rest that followed ( i.e. ) from Genesis to the Revelation , as they are ordinarily numerated in our Bibles , except the Books called Apocrypha ( for I reckon all those are reckoned by thee as the Books thou speakest of , Epist. Ded. pag. 3. Never indited by the Holy Spirit , as remote from being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) doth lastly command the close of the immediate Revelation of his Will to be written in a Book , Rev. 1.11 and so gives out the whole of his Mind and Counsel unto us in Writing , as a merciful and stedfast relief against all Confusion , darknesse and uncertainty ; but what a Relief it is against Confusion , I shall shew more hereafter . And as to thy Scriptures Canonization or the Consignation , compleating Bounding of the Canon of it , a few words here about the manner and means and true bounds thereof ( for as to the Question whether it be a Canon , that is , a Rule at all yea or not , I may defer it also to another place ) let me Expostulate with thee I O. yet more about it yet how , and by whom your Standard comes to be so Bounded ( as ye say it is ) and to be limited to those Demensions of Latitude , Longitude , and Profundity , that ( ad amussim ) exact Measure , Heighth , Depth , Length and Breadth , that is allotted to it , as ( without the Apocripha ) it stands bound up within your late bound Bibles ? I mean that such and such Parcels , Prophesies , Proverbs , Histories , Epistles , Holy Sentences , Sacred Sayings , shall stand Owned , Honoured , Signed and Authorized with the Sacred High and Holy Titles of Gods Word , Gods Witnesse , Foundation , Rule , inalterable Standard , and not one piece of Holy Writing more or lesse , then those already so Consecrated and Canonized ; so that such and such ( puta , those that ye now commonly call Canonical ) shall shand as the Standard ; and all others ; viz. those called Apocryphal , and whatever are mentioned in that Scripture ye so own , shall stand out of , and off from it , as no part of the Standard while the World stands ? Who was it ? Was it God or was it Man that set such distinct Bounds to the Scripture , so as to say such and such a set number of Books , viz. Those those that are sum'd up together before your Bibles , excepting the Apocrypha , which stands between them , shall be owned as Canonical , and the rest , though such as were of the same divine Inspiration , be rejected as humane , and no otherwise accounted on then other meer mens Writings , not to be received with such high respect as the other ? Whence hast thou this Conceit that God himself Commanded the Close of the Canon of the Old Testament to be Malachi , and the bounds of it to consist of such Books of the Prophets , as ye now have , exclusively of such Prophesies , therein mentioned , as ye have not ? and the Close of the Canon of the New to be the Revelation , and the bulk of it to be those few Histories , and Apostolical Epistles , as ye have exclusively , of such even therein mentioned , as ye have not ? Who was it that said to the Spirit of God , O Spirit , blow no more , inspire no more men , make no more Prophets from Ezra's dayes and downwards till Christ ; and from Iohns dayes downward for ever ? But cease , be silent and subject thy self as well as all Evil Spirits to be tryed by the Standard , that 's made up of some of the Writings of some of those men thou hast moved to write already , and let such and such of them as are bound up in the Bibles now used in England , be the only means of measuring all Truth for ever . Who was it God or Man , the Spirit in the Scripture it self , or the Scribes in their Synods , Councels , and Consistories that so Authorized or Canonized these , and expunged those ? Was it not meer Men in their Imaginations ? Doth the Scripture , do the Spirit and the Apostles therein give any order for , or make any such mention in the least of such a matter ? Is it not meer man in his Imaginations , that hath taken upon him according to the good , or ill Conceit , that he hath taken to him , of these or those respectively , to say ( which thou sayest is a Contradiction to say ) he will give Authority to the Scriptures ? Is it not man in his proud mind that comes in with his sic volo , sic Iubeo , so I 'le have it , thus it shall be ? Saying to the Books of Scripture as God sayes to the Waves of the outward Ocean , hitherto shall ye come and no further ; So many of the Prophets and Apostles Writings shall be in the Authority , Nature , Vse and Office of the Supream Determiner of all Truth for ever ; and all others , even such as are written by the same men , in the motion of the same Spirits shall be but as common mens Writings , and be look'd on afar off as Apocryphal , i.e. hidden or unknown Writings , that no such notice shall be ●aken of , as of the other ? And as for the Books which ye sprinkle with that Name of Apocryphal , and give leave to to have a standing with it , but not so as to make any part of your Standard ; What think ye of them upon second Thoughts ? Are they fit for nothing but to be Cashiered and cast out of your Canon by whole sale , by Tradition one from another , without trying them ? Is there nothing among them that may be judiciously Iudged to be of as divine an Original and Authority as some of those particular Letters to private men , as that of Paul to Philemon , about private personal , or Domestick matters , which ye own in such a transcendent manner as ye do ? Surely if some of hem be fictitious or fabulous or but humane , so that ye will say no better of them then Vox hominem sonat ; yet is there none , or nothing among them all that is to be noted or counted upon as of divine Authority and Original , and of as self-evidencing Efficacy as some of those ye own ? None that ye can see cause to sign meliore lapillo , with some better Name then ye vouchsafe them , and standing in the Church then ye allow them ? As if they were a certain mongrel seed between that of Canaan and Ashdod , that ye know not well what to make of , nor how to entreat so ill altogether , as not to afford them a middle place in some of your Bibles between the Old Testament Writings and those ye call the New , nor yet so well , as to entertain them into your Canon neither ? Surely there be some of them , which when ye look them over again not so cursorily as to over-look them , as ye ordinarily do , ye may find ground to receive as such , as have as fair a stamp of the beaming Majesty , Truth , Holinesse and Authority of God and his Spirit , as some at least ( not to say the most ) of those ye ascribe to God , as their main or only Author ; and that do favour as much of I. O's so much insisted on Theo-pneusty , as some other Historical , Doctrinal and Prophetical parts of your acknowledged divinely derived Scripture do , of which ( what Infidels soever ye are as concerning them ) yet I , together with many others , whereof some are as Booklearn'd as your selves , can say Credo Equidem nec vana Fides genus esse Deorum . 'T is indeed the Faith , or rather Infidelity of such as call themselves Reformed Churches , that all those Books called the Apocrypha , without exception , are in no wise of such divine Original , as them ye call Canonical ; but who first set the one upon the Bench , and the other at the Bar , I am yet to learn ; but this I know , that howbeit ye second their depression and digradation of the one so far below the other , yet as neither one nor t'other were ever Canonized by God himself ( if we speak of the Outward Text only , about which my businesse with I.O. lyes ) into that Name of his Word , and into the Authority of the Foundation of Faith , the infallible Rule of Interpretation of itself , of Tryal and Examination of Spirits , Doctrines , &c. of the Supream Iudge also , by which all Controversies of Religion are to be determined , the only pure Authentical Standard , unto which the Church is finally to Appeal , in whose Sentence it is to Rest , into which all Faith is finally to be Resolved ; so if such Synods of men , either Antient or Modern , as have shouldred out all those at once from sharing with the other Writings in what they can lay just claim to , had been as Spiritually discerning as they were Spiritually blind , shallow and undiscerning , they would have seen cause to have joyned some at least of those Apocryhal Scriptures to an Equal Participation of that Plea of divine Original and inspiration with the rest , as without Cause they justled them all out from it by their joynt Consent . And though it be the declared Faith of that Assembly of Divines that both Houses of Parliament advised with 1648. and of the Congregational Churches in England , whose Confession is put out this instant 1659. as to that Article about the Scriptures word for word in the same words with the other , That the Books commonly called Apocrypha not being of divine Inspiration are no part of the Canon of the Scriptures , and therefore are of no Authority in the Church of God , nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of then other humane Writings ; yet this I declare to the whole World as my Faith concerning them , that though I own neither them , nor the best bare Wriing , or outward Text or Letter of the other Scripture at so high a Rate as I.O. does , who makes the naked Letter in all things equivolent to the holy matter ; yet whatever is truly to be praedicated of the one , or can solidly be pleaded on the behalf of the one , which ye call your Canon as to the divinity of their Original , the same may be pleaded on the behalf of not a few of the other . And as they all , that in general are stilled Apocryphal , can plead their Authority from long before the Apostles dayes ; and also the special Care and Providence of God ( which is an Argument of such weight with I.O. and T.D. pag. 27. as swayes them not a little into their frivolous Faith about the rest ) in the preservation of them to this very day ; So that all of them have been kept by the Church , that kept the rest bound up and Translated into various Languages , and as publickly allowed to be publickly Read as the rest , and highly esteemed by Austin , and other Fathers , ye Divines cannot easily be ignorant . And as for sundry of them , ye are ignorant with a witnesse , if ye see them to be as ye say they are , not of divine Inspiration , or see them not to be of as divine an Original as some , or even any of the other , which ye own so to be . As for that Fourth Book of Esdras , which is but the Second as it stands in the Apocrypha , besides that it s acknowledged by Clem , Alexandrinus , Faber , and many more men of Renown among you , and by many Holy men in these latter times , as well learned as your selves , at least in the Wisdom of Gods Spirit , to be written by his immediate Inspiration ; so is it such a plain Prophecy consistent of many Particular Praedictions of things to be fulfilled in these last Ages , as the like to it , or a least clearer is hardly to be found in all the Scripture besides it ; insomuch that he who reads it in the 11 , 12 , 13 , 16 Chapters of it , and some other places , and sees not the beams of a divine Majesty in it , and sees not the Matters now managing upon the Stage in the World , that are there foretold in it , reads not in the Light of that Holy Spirit , that moved in the Writing both of that and all other Holy Scripture , and may come before he is well aware to feel ere long the dint of that divine displeasure that is denounced against the Sinners of the latter Ages , and thereby come to be convinced of the Divinity and Truth of that Scripture , which our Divines that usually see altogether by the lump , and are loath to see any Truth Sigillatim , till they are all made to see it whether they will or no , will hardly yield to , if they be their Old-wonted-selves , till very Necessity forces and frights them into the Faith of it . And the same may be said , as to the divine Original of Ieremiahs Epistle , which was written and sent to them that were to go Captive into Babylon , and of Ecclesiasticus , and the Wisdom of Solomon , which favours so much of the Wisdom of the Spirit , that he is yet in that Wisdom only , which is from beneath , which is Earthly , Animal , Deceitful , who doth not acknowledge the finger of God , writing those deep and precious Truths and Praedictions in the heart of him , whose hand was the Committer of them to outward Writing ( which whether it were not Solomon after whom it was so Entituled , Nil ultra quaero , he uttered 3000 Proverbs , whereof scarce 300 are extant in that Book of his Proverbs , some of which as standing inserted there in the Hebrew Text , are not the Original Copy , but a Transcript only at best out of that , or some Second hand Copies taken and Copied cut long after Solomons dayes by the men of Hezekiah 8 or 9 Generations from him , Prov. 25 1. The 30 Chapter of which Book also are the Words of one Agu● the son of Iaketh ) but sure I am that Book of Wisdom was inspired or breathed into the Penman , that expired or breathed it out , from no lesse then that Wisdom which is from above . The main Argument that ever I have seen against the divine Original of these Books , are , First , Their being not written in the Hebrew Tongue , which what a poor pedling piece of Disproof it is , he is no wiser then he should be , that does not see ; for what warrant is there that all that was not Pen'd in the Hebrew Tongue is no Scripture of divine Inspiration ? Or if there be , is it not as conclusive against much of the Scripture which I.O. counts Canonical , the whole of wch he reckons ( at random ) was wrote in the Hebrew Tongue , since its evident that much of that Book of Hester ( 9 Chapters and 3 Verses of which are set among the Canonical Scripture , and ( oh the Wisdom ) the other 6 Chapters and 10 Verses of the 10 Chapter by you self-will'd Choppers and Changers , because written in Greek are reckoned and rank'd with the Apocryphal ) was written not in the Hebrew , but in the Caldee , as much of Ezra , Nehemiah , and Daniel also were . And besides , if being written Originally in the Hebrew will avail toward the evincing of them to be Canonical , this will help some of your Apocrypha into your Canon , since that of Tobit or Tobias is not only ( as that of Ba●uch also is , the Holy man that wrote much for that Prophet , and of that Prophecy of Ieremiah ) most pretiously both Doctrinal and Prophetical , but also extant in the Hebrew as well as Greek and Latine ; and that of Ecclesiasticus was written Originally in Hebrew , witnesse Iesus the Son of Syrach , who himself confesseth in his Prologue , he Translated it out of the Hebrew Text ; and if ye say that 's but a Translation then at best , and so not Canonical Scripture , I Reply Two things thereto ; First , This argues ad hominem against I O. then Tittles and Iotaes of the Hebrew Text are lost since the giving out thereof at first . Secondly , That either Translation must be owned as Canonical with you , as well as the first Original Manuscripts and your Original Transcripts , or else it must be concluded what ever you Linguists have , yet the People that live upon your Lips , not being able to read Hebrew and Greek , have no Canonical Scripture at all to read . The Second Argument that is supposed to be of weight against the Divine Original of the Apocryphal Scriptures ( Broughton , in his Sinai Sights , touches upon them both ) is , because no Writers in the New Testament , Cite or Quote any of them any otherwise then they do Heathen Authors . But I marvel not , fith the wise men are to be befooled , that prudent Broughton should be so blind as not to see , how Paul , Heb. 1 3. quotes out of Wisd. 7.26 . And Heb. 11.5 . quotes Wisd. 4.10 . And 1 Cor. 6.2 . quotes Wisd. 3.8 . And Heb. 11.35 . quotes 2 Maccab. 7.7 . Yea , and Christ himself , Matth. 23.36 , 37 , 38. quotes 2 Esdras 1.30 . And Rev. 7.9 . answers to 2 Esdras 2.41 , 42 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 46. besides many other Passages in the Scriptures of the New Testament ; but especially in the Revelation relate to their Paralels in that Second Book of Esdras , which is the Fourth at least of that man Ezra or Esdras his Writing , whereof that some should be received as of divine Original , and some that have as truly spiritual a Tincture on them , as the other , or any in all the Scripture ( as that Fourth of Esdras hath , wherein also he declares his Visions and Revelations he had from God , in which he would not sain and Lye ( for then he were not fit to have his Two First Books owned as from God ) should be rejected as meerly humane , I see not any solid Ground for it ; Yet such is the divine The-anthropical Wisdom of our meer humane Divines , that Two of that same mans Books , who wrote all the Four , ( for the Identity of the Person , that Pen'd them all , every Believer may easily believe ) are Canonized as divine , and the other Two Condemned as but humane . Thus though I.O. prates so much for the whole Book of Gods being providentially preserved , so that we may have full assurance that we enjoy the whole Revelation of his Will ( that is , with him , all the Writings that ever were written by Inspiration from the Spirit fit , to stand among those that he makes the Standard ) in the Copies abiding amongst us ; and contends that the whole Scripture entire , as given out from God without any losse of so much as one Letter , Tittle , or Iota , remains and is preserved in the Copies yet extant among us to this day ; which is that Arch-Assertion in which having at first over shot himself in blindly bolting it out , rather then endure that honourable shame of owning his own Ignorance , he as blindly posts on to maintain , pag. 153.162.169.181.203 . Yet upon I know not what frivolous Conceits , and prejudicate Surmises possessing the minds of himself and his Brethren of both the Convocational and the Congregational way , among which blind Custome , more then clear sight , I believe to be none of the least , which are so far from enjoying the whole Book of Scripture , wherein the Mind and VVill of God lyes declared by his own Inspiration of the Penmen , that no small part of that Scripture that was written by men divinely inspired , and so providentially preserved , he refuses to enjoy or own as of such divine Descent from God , as other parts of the Scripture are , but Rejects and Contemnes it as Apocryphal , that is , so altogether hidden from him that he knows not very well what to make on 't . But suppose he should own and take all the Apocryphal Writings into his Standard and Canon ( as he calls it ) of the Scriptures , does that and all the rest both Old and New , that are bound up in old English Bibles with it , Constitute the utmost Bounds of his Canon ? Doth his Standard stand in so little room ? Is it Closed within so narrow a Corner ? Consists it of so few , so small a Company of Holy mens Writings , and Scriptures , as are Comprehended in no greater a Compasse then that Book called the Bible contains to ? Is that the whole Book of God , the whole outward Declaration of his Will by the Writings of Holy men at his own motion ? The whole Scripture entire that was ever so given out from God , without any losse of any of the Integral parts of it , so much as of one Letter , Tittle , or Iota ? Is all Extant ? All Remaining ? All Preserved to this day that was Written by Holy men , as moved by the holy Spirit ? And is that all of the Inspired Scripture , which we now have , and enjoy in our present Bibles ? Was there no more of the Old Testament Scripture , then the Apocrypha , and that which is commonly counted to the Canon ? And is the Revelation the Close of the immediate Revelation of his Will to Holy men , and of his moving them to write it out by his Holy Spirit ? Num tam — Pellibus exiguis arctatur Spiritus ingens . Two things I.O. at least I have to say to the Contrary . First , That is not all of the Old , nor all of the New Scriptures , that were by Inspiration Written before Christ , and after him to the same use , ends ; and purposes as the rest were Written , until Iohns Writing the Revelation . Secondly , That as there was much more then that ye wot of , which was Written as the Spirit moved from Moses to the Revelation , so there hath been more , since then , so Written , and more is , and will yet be in time to come , before ( as near as it is to it ) the World that now waxes Old towards it , be at an end . First , There 's not all in your Bibles by much , and by how much who knows ? That was given out upon Inspiration of God , when as ( to say nothing of the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs now extant ) there is not all the inspired Scripture by much , which that inspired Scripture ye have makes mention of ; Where 's the Book of Nathan the Prophet ? the Book of Ahijah ? the Book of Iddo ? 2 Chron. 9.29 . the Book of Shemaiah ? 2 Chron. 12.15 . the Book of Iehu the Prophet ? 2 Chron. 20.34 , 1 King 16.1 : the Book of Gad the Seer ? 2 Chron. 29.29 . the Book of Iasher ? 2 Sam. 1.18 . Of which it may well be supposed that he was a very Antient Writer , since those that wrote Ioshua , who ere they were ( for himself it was not that wrote it all at least ( as Moses not all Deuteronomie ) unlesse he wrote of his own Death and Burial before he died ; See Iosh. 24.29 . ) do quote him , Iosh. 3.10 . Where 's that part of Ieremiah the Prophet , wherein he spake that which Matthew cites , Matth. 27.9 , 10. about the giving the 30 pieces of Silver , the price that Christ was sold at , for the Potters field ; for howbeit Zachary the Prophet , Zach. 11.12 . speaks of the same thing ( who was in his work an Exalier of God in his time , which the Name Ieremiah seems to signifie , and so may be called Ieremiah , which is not likely to be Matthews meaning ) yet in all the Prophesies of Ieremie extant in your Bibles , there 's no such thing spoken ; And for you to say either that Matthew was mistaken , quoting throw forgetfulness one Prophet for another ; or that the Transcribers of the Copies of their Original out of Matthews Original Copy , failed so fowlly in their Transcribings ( for all your Copies that ever I saw so read ) as to write Ieremie for Zachary , will be for I.O. upon his Principles , who stands to plead every Letter , Tittle , and Iota that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be now in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as sorry a shift , and miserable remedy , as he makes for himself , and finds , who leaps out of the frying pan into the fire . Where 's the Prophecy of Enoch , spoken of Iude 14. out of whose Prophesie the Iewes can tell you more then ye wot of from that of Iude ? And as for Ezra or Esdras , and his true Companions , of whom thou sayest truly enough , if not truer then thou art aware of , that their care in restoring the Scripture to its Purity , when it had met with the greatest Tryal that it ever underwent in this world , considering the Paucity of the Copies then extant was great , and that the Consignation and Bounding of the Canon delivered to the Judaical Church , was in their dayes ; and that they did labour to reform all the Corruptions crept into the Word of God * And that they compleated the Punctation ( the compleatnesse of which then was not Coaevous with the Text , as at first Written in Hebrew , as thou contendest , to the Consuring of thy self here ) and that they were guided herein by the infallible direction of the Spirit of God , Pag. 177. 211. 302. 303. Did not they , in the Spirit and Power of God , Write many more Books , even 204. most of which are not in your Bibles ; Read 2 Esdras 14. throughout the Chapter ? Where are all these , and sundry more Scriptures ( some as , and some more Antient then Moses ) of which I will not now speak particularly ? And as to the New , Where is that First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians , mentioned in the first of those Two that we have ? 1 Cor. 5.9 . And that First Epistle of his to the Ephesians ( for its evident he wrote One to them before That ) mentioned in that One which ye have , Ephes. 33 ? And that Epistle of his to the Laodiceans , mentioned , Col. 4.16 ? Besides several to Seneca , Neros Tutor , and other of Pauls Writings , who was doubtlesse far more Voluminous in his Writings then that poor pittance of Epistles to Churches and Ministers , and the Letters to Philemona Tradesman , about a Domestick businesse of Receiving his Servant Onesimus , that had ben unserviceable to him , amounts to ; of whole Spiritual Scriptures , and Speeches that fell from him at his Martyrdom , that were taken by such as were present at it , some in these dayes have seen more , then that which was Written of him by Luke in the Acts , and Written by him in the Epistles ye count a part of your Canon . And whether that , which Iohn wrote to the Church , mentioned by him in the 9th vers . of his Letter to Gaius , were no other then the first of those Three Recorded ? And whether that of Iude , whereof Iude 3. he sayes in the Praeterimperfect Tense , When I gave all diligence to write unto you of the Common Salvation * it was needful for me to write unto you , &c. were not One he wrote before This , which was now but under his hands , is more then all you Sayers of what ye think only , are able groundedly to gain-say . And whether Clements Epistle , whose name was in the Book of Life , and that Church of Rome to Corinth , wrote 30 years after Pauls , may not Challenge to be ranck'd among the rest , is worth your enquiry ? And what think ye of that sweet , shorr , pretious Reply of Christ Iesus himself in his Letter to Agbarus King of Edessa , who wrote so loving'y and beleevingly to him about the Malady that lay upon him , as it stood Recorded in the Roles of that City , and may do still for ought ye know , which is to be read , and many other pretious passages about that businesse in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilius ? Is it not as Christian , as Divinum Spiritum , non hominem sapiens , and worthy ( as particular as it is ) to stand in your Standard , and claim a room in your Canon , as that particular Letter of Paul to Philemon ? What is become I say of all these , and more then may now be mentioned , none of which is within the Confines of your Congregationally Constituted , Synodically Composed , Ecclesiastically Authorized , Clerically Conceived Canon ? 1. Were they not divinely Inspired ? That were to Render doubtful your undoubted Divine Original of what you have ? Since some of them are quoted in these you have . 2. Are they all utterly lost ? That were to loose himself much more in his Cause ( who is lost too much already ) for I.O. to say so , sith more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one jot , or one Tittle is then passed away and perished from the Law ( if the Letter be it ) not one jot or one Tittle of which Letter , quoth I.O. ( wofully mis-interpreting that of Matth. 5.18 . for the lotaes and Tittles of the meer Text , and Letter , which Christ utters only of the Doctrine , Truth , and Holy Matter of the Law ) is to passe away , till Heaven and Earth ( which are yet standing ) are past away . * 3. Or did not God Himselfe intend to Dignifie these with the same honour , and Crown them with so high an Account as those , though as well descended , and as immediately derived from him as the rest ? or did he not design them to the same Spiritual Ends , and Renowned Uses with their fellows ? 4. Or were these Books out of the way and not present at the time and place of the first setting up of your Standard by such Synods and Sanydrims as took on them to stablish , Sign , Seal , and Authorize what Scriptures of the Prophets and Apostles should , and what should not stand under that honourable Title of the stedfast Standard , and so were Censured and Sentenced for ever for not appearing at that sacred Session and high Court of Iudicature , which was to Iudge what Books should be from thence-forth the Supream Iudge to which all should Appeal in all Cases , and in whose Sentence all should rest , and all Faith be finally Resolved ; and not coming in at the Compleating , Consignation , Bounding , and Final Closing of the Canon , should for ever Iure Ant-Ecclesiastico , or Apostatico , and in foro hominum , forfeit that ( Originally ) Equal Title , which in foro Dei , Iure Christico and Apostolico they else had to be Canonized with their fellows ? Ah poor men ! It pities me to see how ye Dream together in the dark , and mope up and down in your own misty Imaginations about your Original Texts and external Letter , leaving the Original Truth it self , which was before your Texts were ever talk'd on , or had a being in the World , turning your backs on that internal Light in the heart , which all the Tendency of of your Letter is to turn men to , and from which your Scripture Originally had its being . It irks me to see how for want of betaking your selves to the measure of the Light that shines in your own Consciences , that infallibly would lead you to that which is the end of all Scriptures , and words spoken or written as from God , ( viz. ) honesty and righteousnesse , truth and acceptation with God and Holy men , ye trace to and fro till ye tire your selves in the perplexing Cris-Cros Track , and endlesse Round of your own meer Thoughts about a thing , which the more ye try , the more ye Tangle your selves about it , and the more ye look after it , and in it , in the way ye look into your beloved Letter , the more ye loose your selves in it and about it , till at last you will eternally loose both it and your selves too , by not looking to the Light at all , even no lesse then altogether ; See Epist. Ded : Pag. 30. I. O's . Preaching on that Subject , the Scripture , and his publishing of it is said by him to be but his Thoughts , so pag. 146 , 147. what he delivers about the Prolegomena and Appendix to the Biblia Polyglotta was but what his own Thoughts had suggested unto him , sutable to other learned mens Apprehensions . So Pag. 149. He runs the Hazard of giving his Thoughts on them . Pag. 151. He discover , his Thoughts on the things proposed by them . So Pag. 163. What he gives out concerning the Purity of the present Copies of the Originals of the Scriptures he so Scribles for is but an account of his Apprehensions . So Pag. 225. He purposes to manifest his Thoughts on the Epistle to the Hebrews : So Pag. 278. He desired Dr. Ward to give his Thoughts on the difference of Apert Sounds and Vowels , which he did accordingly . And Pag. 177. He sayes , when he shall Communicate his Thoughts to the World about an Vniversal Character , it will doubtlesse yield much , if not Vniversal Satisfaction unto learned and prudent men . O ye Wise and Prudent Vain Thinkers , and Senslesse Surmisers , that sit down Universally Satisfied in the shadow of your own , and one anothers shallow Thoughts ! When will you come to busie your selves about that which is infallibly clear and certain , and let your deep infinite Disputings about dark and doubtful matters ( of small moment to you too ) altogether alone ? When will you wash your Hearts from that Dunghil of meer deemings , and divinity Dreamings , with the untempered Morter of which ye are all to be-dawbed , so that one can discern little or nothing that savours of more then dubiousuesse and disputablenesse it self , descending or flowing from your Well-heads and Fountains of Forgery and Fabulosity , & little or none from the Breasts of your Nursing Mothers of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , plain , purely reasonable sincere Milk of the Word , whereby the growth is into the Life of God ; but such as is mangled and mingled with the Mire and Mudde of your putrid and puddlely Opinions and Opinations ? Will you never cease from Teaching for Doctrines your own Conceptions , Apprehensions , and Conjectural Conclusions of things for Truth , taken from no surer Topick place , then that self same that ye Condemn in Papists , ( viz. ) the Traditions of men ? Will you never give over filling , and feeding the vain World for filthy Lucre with such perishing Food , as the thin froth and Foam of your own Fancies , instead of the Bread that comes down from Heaven , and that Meat which endures to Eternal Life ? Oh thou European Athens , or Academical Minx , thou manifold Mother with thy Children , for whom t is as easie for the Blackmore to change his Skin , and the Leopard his Spots , as for thee , who hast been accustomed to Apostarize from the Councel of God , and erre from the Mind of Christ , to with-hold thy foot from wandring after thy own Images and Imaginations , wilt thou not be made clean ? When shall it once be ? How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee ? Now as to the Four wayes by way of Query above propounded , which of them all I.O. means to Answer by , who talks so much about the Closure , Compleating , Consignation , and Bounding of the Standard and Scripture Canon ● I cant well say : But as for T.D. with whom I have somewhat to do , and to deal alittle here , he Replyes Affirmitively to the Third among them , saying , Pag. 26 , of the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians , mentioned in that First of Ours , and so consequently of all the several Scriptures that are not bound up in your Bibles , which I asserted to be as much a Rule as those ye have , that they were not intended as much for your Rule , as those in your Books . To whom when I Replyed at the Dispute with him ( as he there Relates ) Thus , viz. If that Epistle was wriiten to the same end with those we have ( as it was , viz. to Instruct the Corinthians how to carry themselves to grosse Sinners , I Cor. 5.9 . compared with vers . II. I wrote unto you not to Company , and now I have written unto you not to keep Company ; And the same was said of his First to the Ephesians , i.e. that it was to the self same End as that we have , Ephes. 3.3 . As I wrote before , that ye may understand my Knowledge in the Mistery of Christ so now ) then 't was intended as much for a Rule as the other ; But it was Written to the same End : Ergo , If one a Rule , then the other . T.D. Denies the Consequence ; Saying Sermons , private Religious Discourses have the same common End with the written Scriptures , yet the Later only are our standing Rule ; the former our Rule but so far as they agree with the Later in the Scripture . Reply . Which Reply of T. D's , is so unreasonably ridiculcus , that he is scarce Animal Rationale Risibile , that receives , and entertains it seriously as the Truth ; For First , it supposes as if Pauls First writing to the Corinthians , were not Written Scriptures , as well as the Rest we have , but an Orall Discourse . Secondly , It supposes Pau's First Epistle of all to that Church , which was cited by himself in his Second , as written to the same End , and was written in the same Spirit of God in which he lived , and walk'd , and out of whose movings he wrote no Epistles to the Churches , * was fit to stand in no other Account then the Sermons , and private Religious Discourses of our Clergy-men and their Common Christians , which must stand or fall as they square , or not square with the Standard of Scripture ; And as if the Seniour Epistles of Paul to Corinth and Ephesus , must like Prisoners at the Bar , receive their Sentence of Guilty , or not Guilty , worthy or not worthy to be owned as a part of the Rule or Canon , by their Iuniours , or such as were sent after them , to sit as Iudges of them at the Bench ; And so hereby his Reply is as it were an Affirmative Answer to the First of my Four Queries , viz. That Pauls Writings were not all alike of Divine Original and Inspiration , but some Epistles to the Churches of his , were uttered as he was moved by the Holy Spirit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of private Interpretation , or as private Mens Writings . Credat Apella . And when 't was urged by me , that there was no more evidence or Character of these Epistles being a Rule which are , then of those which are not in your Books ; Then T.D. seeing what he had Replyed that way would not hold , Replyes by way of Answer to the Second of my Four last Queries , affirming that Pauls first Writings to Corinth and Ephesus were lost when those we have are saved ; and so makes this distinction of the ones being perished , the other preserved by Gods Providence watching over them , when he did not over the other a signal Evidence that God intended the one for a standing Rule to us and not the other ; and herein he and I.O. Jump together and border pretty near one another , sith I.O. insists exceedingly ( as an Argument of their being a Rule in the Church ) on this businesse of Gods preservation of every Tittle and Iota of divinely Inspired Scripture to this day , whereby he implicitly denies all the afore-named , that are not in your Bibles , to be any of them of Divine Inspiration ; But with this Difference from T.D. that I.O. sayes not a Tittle of the Inspired Scripture is lost ; T.D. to the confuting of I.O. Confesses ( being I believe informed of some Holy Scripture at the Dispute , which he knew not of before ) that not only Tittles and Iotaes , but some whole Books of which he dares not say expresly ( though intimate it he doth in the Head next above spoken to ) that they were not Divinely Inspired , are lost and perished out of the World ; So that the Preservation of what is Preserved , is made a Signal Token that it s to be our Rule , and the losse of what 's lost , that that was not written for such an end . To which Signal Token of Gods intending the One and not the O. her for A Rule , when I Replyed ( as 't is transiently done above to I O. touching the Books called Apocrypha ) that there is more Antient Holy Writ remaining extant to this day , preserved for our use by Gods Providence , then ye own or honour with a standing in your Standard ( instancing in the Epistle of Paul to Laodicea ) then by and by T.D. who rides the Rounds not much lesse then I.O. and is never positive nor steady to any thing he Asserts , so as to stand long to it without shifting ( Proteus like ) into another shape , when he is ashamed to be seen longer in his old one , comes out in a clear contrary Gelour , and flatly contradicts himself , and unsayes what he said but just before ; And whereas he had made the preserving of what was written , and is preserved , an Argument of its being designed of God for a Rule , affirms , That all that was written by Holy Men ( meaning Paul among the rest , or else he speaks not at all to the purpose ) and preserved also for our use , is not therefore our standing Rule : Thus one while 't is so , and one while no ; then neither , yet both no , and so . Pauls Three Epistles , viz. the Two to Corinth , One to Ephesus that we have , appear therefore to be our standing Rule , because they are preserved to our use to this day ; but his first of all to Corinth and Ephesus , therefore not so , because not preserved ; there 's his first saying . His very next of all is this , Pauls Epistle to Laodicea , though preserved for our use , yet is not therefore to be our standing Rule to this day . So what ever Pauls Epistles are , yet I am sure Pauls Life and Example is no Rule that T. D's . walks by , nor I.O. neither , for his yea was yea , and his nay nay ; he did not use such lightnesse , as they both very often do , who say nay to that they said yea to just before ; neither did he speak so according to the Flesh ( as they ) with whom now there 's yea yea , and anon to the same thing nay nay ; but as God is true , and Christ is not yea and nay in his words , and enjoynes us to be steady in our yea and nay , so was Pauls word in what he spake . And yet the Reason T.D. renders of his saying No , to what he said not No but so just before , is as Reasonlesse as his self Confutation is ; for ( mark ) then ( quoth he ) If what ere was written by Holy men ( alluding to Paul ) be therefore our standing Rule because preserved , the Discourses of Holy Ministers in former and latter times should be our Rule , which they are not , but are to be brought to the written Word as our Rule and Test. In which if by Holy Ministers in former times , he means Paul among the rest , as he must , else he misses the matter , then some of Pauls Epistles are the Rule and Test , which his other Epistles must stand bare before to be tryed by , which is absurd ; If by latter Ministers he intend such as himself , who Confesses his Ministry to be fallible ; I would have him to know , and that he shall find more of anon , that Pauls Ministry , and every true Ministry that Ministers by word of Mouth or Writing , as moved by the Holy Spirit , which moves and leads none fallibly , but all infallibly , whom it leads , was no such fallible Ministry as his false one is , that it need be tryed by his other own holy Writings . But now as to the Epistle of Laodicea instanced in , T.D. was so hard of belief , and difficult to he perswaded that there was any such at all , that if one of Sandwich had not stood up and said he had the Book wherein we Asserted it to be Printed , we should hardly have gained so much Credit among the Clergy then present ( such pro and con they made about it , as to have been believed ) that there was such a thing in Being ; so ignorant are they of some present parts of that Scripture they call their Rule ; yet at last 't was yielded such a one was extant . But for all that , T.D. who has ever more wayes then one into the Wood where he loves to wander , when he is bedged out of it one way , will find or make himself a Gap into it by another , and as to this matter of PAVL to LAODICEA , he hath Three or Four shifts , for fear one fail , affirming after he had found it Translated into English , not to , but from Laodicea * First , That for ought we know , it might be that First of Paul to Timothy , the Post-script of which sayes it was Written from Laodicea ; of which Post-script ( which its notorious enough to every Novice , that neither it , nor the other Post-scripts were Pen'd by such as wrote the Epistles themselves ) when I Asked T.D. Whether he owned it and the Rest as Canonical , or no ? As Canonical ( quoth he ) for ought appears yet to me , as your Epistle to the Laodiceans , of which Epistle yet he had said but just before , It might be that of Pauls to Timothy , which yet that it was , is so unlikely , that t is little lesse then to be like a Child to Assert it ; A likely matter indeed that its Pauls to Timothy meant Col. 4.16 . That which Paul wrote to Timothy was to Timothy a particular Person , about particular Matters concerning him , as in that Capacity of a Church-Officer , I Tim. 3.14 , 15. What should he Charge the Colosians so much to look after that for ? Or if he had , Would he not have said , See that ye read the Epistle to Timothy ? Had not that been plainer ? Secondly , But seeing that Snap , T.D. fits another string to his Instrument , and then Fidles on in this fashion , denying it to be Pauls Epistle at all , either to Laodicea , or Timothy , or any one else ; branding it with the Name of one of the Brats laid by the Popish party at the Apostles doors , which they will not Father , and me as a Brother of the Popish party , and an Abbettor of them in their wickednesse , for Fathering it on Paul at all . And then Thirdly , That he might seem to say something , though no better then nothing to every thing , rather then own any thing for Truth before the World , be it never so plain , that the Quakers tell him , he bethinks himself , and upon Second , or rather Third Thoughts , adds ( having perused the Judgement of some Learned men about it ) that 't was neither Pauls to Timothy any more then to Laodicea , nor yet altogether such a Brat , or Bastard brood as a metr Chimaera hatcht , and bred , and sained in the Fancies only of the Popish party , but at least a Real Epistle , yet one that was so far from being Pauls to Laodicea , that it was rather one Written by the Laodiceans to Paul himself , a more incredible pigment then the first , for all t is his Reverend Dr. Davenports Opinion on the place . Thus Oh the twistings and turnings , and chop●ings and changings , and piecirgs and patchings , and shiftings and shufflings of T.D. to wind himself away from the Truth which is to him so Intollerable , that with I.O. hee●l bear the shame , and run the hazard of giving his incongruous self-overturning Thoughts thick and threefold against it , rather then truly turn to it when it s truly and uncontroulably told and laid before him ; As it is in this Case about the Epistle to Laodicea , about which he traces to and fro two or three false wayes , and yer can scarce tell well , which of the Three to fix upon , or steadily to stand to , or stand still in . Neverthelesse notwithstanding T.Ds. advance in Three Motions against the Truth of Pau's Writing to Laodicea , yet they help him not ; but for all his two strides and a Iump , yet he leaps too short to reach the matter of Truth he would resel by it , for Quid verbis opus est quum facta loquuntur ? there need no more words in proof on 't , the Epistle of Paul to Laodica is extant , and speaks out it self and its Author whose it is , as well by the stale and majesty of it as by the Superscription , being both Translated and Printed in English , as it was found , though not in your Testaments , yet in the Oldest Bible that was Printed at Worms ; And also in a certain Antient Manuscript of the New Testament Text , which I have seen and can produce , written in Old English 340 years since , or above , before the Art of Printing came up here ; by which its evident , that it was owned as Canonical in the Church of England in those dayes , and was ( however it came to be since left out ) bound upamong its fellowes . And howbeit it be filled in our English Translations of Col. 4.16 . the Epistle from Laodicea , besides the genuine sence of the Greek , which , as is shewed above , will much rather bear it to , then from Laodicea ; yet let it be read from , that nothing lessens the likelihood of its being Pauls ; for though he wrote it to Laodicea , yet if the Colossians would read it ( as Paul bids them do , as that the Laodiceans likewise should read what he wrote to the Colossians ) they must read it in a Copy from Laodicea whether it was sent , or else not at all ; as the Laodiceans it they read that he wrote to the Colossians , must have it first from Colosse , or at least a Copy of it ; For as for the Scriptures of the New Testament ( quoth I.O. who helps us in this , though he hinder himself another way by it , as to his Canons Constitution out of the first Original Copies , pag. 166. ) it doth not appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the several Writers of it were ever gathered into one Volumne , there being now no one Church to keep them for the rest , the Epistles , though immediately Transcribed for the use of other Churches , Col. 4.16 . ( Mark how he Quotes the very Place too we are upon , as if he owned Pauls to Laodicea , which if he do , he wounds himself to death in his Arch-Assertion , that not a Tittle or Iota of the inspired Scripture as given out at first , is lost , but remaining every Apex of it in the Copies w now enjoy , fith here 's a whole Epistle of Pauls lacking , as well as his first to Corinth and Ephesus , in which were many Tittles and lotaes ) were doubtless kept in the several Churches , to which they were directed ; From those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there were quickly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 given out to faithful men , whilst the infallible Spirit continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner . Here T.D. said no more , but was ad Altum srlentium , and at his Non ultra , as to opposing the being of such an Epistle of Paul to Laodicea legitimate , but rather fell under the weight of what Evidence was brought to prove it so ; yet when after long striving against this Antecedent , which was urged in proof of this Conclusion , viz. That there 's more Holy Scriptures extant to this day , which are as much a Rule as those ye have in your Bibles , and call your Rule exclusively of all others ; to shew himself to be one of those I.O. speaks of , who are as like I.O. too as ever they can look , that are ( to English J. O's . Latine ) * so unhappily stupid or self-will'd , that they will be indoctrinated by no reason nor experience ; but as if themselves aboue must over-top all , being puft up with a vain perswasion of their own Faith , they obstinately persist in the contempt of such things as they understand not , and so with the Comedian cry out , Let who will say what he will from this Opinion , we will not be removed : T.D. at last denyes the Consequence , saying , pag 28. Suppose we should grant you there were such an Epistle legitimate , yet it will not follow that it was intended for a Rule to us . And why so ? may any Rational Reader say ; For this Reason ( quoth T.D. ) which Reason is as silly as if he had said , because it will not ; for we have already as much as God thought sufficient , God did not give order for any more then them we have to be our Rule ( what Order he gave for any writing at all to be the Rule or Canon will be seen anon , or whether man did not give order for the Canonizing of that , that is Authorized , as the Rule ) but how appears it that God gave order for some Holy Scriptures , and not some ? some Holy mens Writings , some of Pauls Epistles , and not othersome ? hereby ( quoth T D. ) Read Iob. 20.30.31 . and many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his Discip'es , which are not written in this Book , but these are Written that ye might believe , &c. Reply . In which Scripture T. D's . Reason why Pauls other Epistles are Authentick and Canonical , but that of his to Laodicea though as legitimate as the rest must not be so , lyes so close hid up , that a man may sooner find the way of a Bird in the Air , or of a Serpent upon a Rock , or a Fish in the Sea , then find it , or any thing that hath the least Iota of a Reason of such a matter : Quis nist mentis inops , &c. Who but a man besides his wits , can see either Sense or Reason in this Reason ? Iohn sayes Christ did more things then he Wrote of in that Book , therefore Pauls Epistle to Laodicea i , not so Canonical as his other Epistles : But ( to take it as it comes ) consider first , Iohn speaks of that particular History that he was then in hand with ; Secondly , He speaks of Signes and not of Scriptures ; Thirdly , Though he affirms that more were done by Christ , then were written in his Book ; yet many might be , and were Written by Matthew , Mark , and Luke that were not by him ; so that every way that Scripture makes against T.D. For first , If Iohns Writing that Book were Exclusive of any of Pauls legitimate Epistles , it must be of them all , and of all legitimate Scripture that was wrote after this , and so of his own Three Epistles , and of his Revelation also from the Canon ; what mad work will T.D. make that way ? and what a fowl flaw will he make in his Canon , by medling to exclude one Book of the New Testament , excluding well nigh all ; Iohns Book was sufficient , therefore no more need be written ; this is the Inference according to T. D. and not Iohns was sufficient , therefore Pauls to Laodicea only so illegitimate that it must have no room in the Rule , nor standing in the Standard , though all other his Epistles now extant may . 2. Iohn speaking that all the Signs Christ did , were not written , is no Argument to prove that all that was Written by the Spirit , was not as equally useful as some of it , and all alike designed and ordered to the same Ends , so that if some were intended for a Rule , the rest must be ; yea , faith not the Scripture thus , Rom. 15.4 . 1 Cor. 18.11 . Whatever was Written aforetime was Written for our Instruction , that we by it might have Hope ; Saith it not , All Scripture ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is profitable for Doctrine , Exhortation , Instruction in Righteousnesse , &c. 2 Tim 3.16 . & 2 Pet. 1.20 . Saith it not that no Prophecy of Scripture ( which with I.O. is the Scripture of the Prophecy ) must be Interpreted as private Discourses , that all Holy men of God spake as moved of the Holy Spirit ; Was not all then that was Written before Christ , and since intended to one and the self same End , though all that was done was not Written ? I understand not therefore the force of this Argument of T. D. All that was done , was not Written : Therefore much of that which was Written is of no use , or not intended to the same use to the Church as the rest was . 3. It perfectly confirms against T. D. what we Assert against him , viz. That Pau's Writing to Laodicea , and whatever else of Holy mens Writings that were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and can be found have ( Caeteris Paribus ) One as much Authority as the Other , being all alike legitimate ; For Iohn sayes , of what ere is Written ( if T.D. will stretch Iohns saving beyond the bounds of that individual Book he was then writing ) it was written All to the same End , ( i.e. ) That men might believe , which with you ( not us ) is as much as to say to be a Rule of Faith. One thing more I must not let slip here , though T. D. did in his Account of the Dispute , viz. That when T.D. had no more to say against that Argument from Paul : Epistle to the Laodiceans , one of his Associated Assistants ; R. Wilkinson , asked , Whether we had more Scripture in the Greek Tongue now extant , then is in their Greek Testaments ? For that to Laodicea being here but Englished it would not down with them . Reply was made , Yea ; so naming a Verse between the 5 and 6 Verses of the 6 Chapter of Luke , which is in some Greek Copies , not theirs , ( and a Verse of the Original Text wanting , makes still against I. O.'s Arch-Assertion ; of the Scripture of both Testaments remaining in the Copies they now have entire to a Tittle , as it first given out without any losse , pag. 173. ) I repeated it in English thus out of the Greek ; in which Greek Tongue I have also read it ; Iesus seeing a certain man Working on the Sabbath day , said unto him , O man , If thou knewest indeed what thou dost , thou were happy ; but if thou knowest not , thou art accursed , and a Transgressor of the Law. And so I have proved against T. D. That there 's much Scripture of Holy men , which was as much designed in its first giving out to be the Rule , as 〈◊〉 which is in modern Bibles , wanting and lost , some whereof yet is Extant in some Bibles at this day , in which Confutation of T.D. I.O. is further Confuted as to all those many places of his Book , wherein he avers over and over again with exceeding earnestnesse his Arch-Assertion , viz. That not one iot nor Tittle of divinely inspired Scripture is lost , but every Apex , and Letter of it , as at first Writing is Transcribed downward to us , and preserved without any losse in the Copies we now have , pag. 13 19. 173. And so this might stand for a final Answer to I.O. and T. D. both as to that matter of the non entirenesse or perfection of the Letter , which was given out upon Inspiration , & of its Integrals to this day , and an Answer to I O's . Confident Positions and Challenge concerning the Uniformity of all Bibles without variety in the least , which to his own Confutation I here set down in his own words , of which yet more use that way may be made hereafter . I O. Pag : 319. Neither the Care of God over his Truth , nor the fidelity of the Judaical Church will permit us to entertain the least Suspition that there was ever in the World any Copy of the Bible differing in the least from that which we enjoy , or that those we have are corrupted , as is pretended ; the Authors of that Insinuation cannot produce the least Testimony to make it good . And pag. 317. Let the Authors of this Insinuation prove the Assertion ; Name'y , That there was ever in the World any other Copy of the Bible differing in any one Word from those we now enjoy : Let them produce one Testimony , one Author of Credit , Jew or Christian , that can or doth speak one Word to this purpose : Let them direct us to any Relick , any Monument , and kind of Remembrance of them , and not put us off with weak Conjectures , &c. and it shall be of weight with us : And Epist. pag. 27 , 28. We evidently find various Lections n the Greek Copies which we enjoy , and so grant that which Ocular Inspection evinces to be true ; yet none of them are able to shew out of any Copies yet Extant in the World , or that they can make appear ever to have been Extant , that ever there were any such various Lections in the Originals of the Old Testament . And so I come to take my leave of T.D. again for a while till I meet him again ( as I must do where he meets in one with I.O. in many other places ) and return to walk on a while with I. O. about the Inclosure and Bounds of his Synodically composed , and Humanely Constituted , and compleated Canon , which he takes it for granted by Tradition before it be given him by the true Anti-Traditionaries , that it was Closed and Bounded by Divine Authority . And as concerning this Consignation , Signing , Sealing , Setting out , or Authorizing of the Canon as to the Measure of it , or number of Books so Canonized ( the Nature of which as a Rule or Canon is anon more spoken to ) I say , as above , I am yet to learn that Lesson which I. O. who by road Repeats it for Truth , as if he had it at his fingers e●ds , never yet learn'd himself ( I believe ) by root of heart , nor can ever Teach me , that by divine Authority , or any otherwise then Iure Synodico , by meer mens Will , Wisdom , and Imag●n●tion as they sate in Councel together , not standing in Gods Councel , the Light in the heart , taking Counsel but not of him , nor at his mouth , but each from other ; and Covered with a Covering , but not of his Spirit , it came at first to passe , that some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Holy mens Writings by the Spirit must passe for Currant Coin , and stand as the Standard , and Reign as a Rule and Command in the high Authority of a Canon as the Word of God , as truly as that very Word that comes immediately from Gods own mouth to holy Pen-men , or that Word it self , which the Letter writes of , and other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Writings of Holy men , yea , some of the self same men that wrote some of the rest , and those as legitimate too ( according to T D's Hypothesis ) as the rest should be spurned out as spurious , so far at least . that they must not inherit with their fellowes , that conceited Immortal , Inmutable , and Everlasting Crown of that Solemn Canonization . I. O. I am sure , upon his Principles , must grant me thus far , that if the Bible of Scripture , which he confesses to be his Canon , Lydius lapis , and Touchstone to try all by , doth no where Testifie any such thing within it self of it self , that such Books , Prophesies , Stories , Epistles , Letters , Psalms , Proverbs , and other Writings as are Bound up in it , are of Gods ; and such as are not there Bound , though born Testimony to there , as of as divine Original as the rest , are not of Gods own Canonization , then it must be counted that that precise Consignation of the Canon ( as Consistent of such only , and not of such Books ) had its Original being from some Convocations or Sessions of meer men , that were neither Prophets nor Apostles , but some that doted ( as Doctors do now a dayes , being none themselves ) on the Prophets and Apostles Persons , and such Writings of theirs as best pleased them ; Out of the Scripture I know not where I. O. can pore for proof of any thing , who looks awry upon the Light and Spirit it came from , saving into that Thing , which he so often calls his own Thoughts , all which with me are not worth Three-half-pence as to the begetting of any infallible unfeigned Faith ; And if he will alledge 't is so , that this that 's in our Bibles and Copies only , is the Rule of Gods own Consignation , and none of the rest mentioned there , must come into it , he is Certain of it , he thinks so ( to which Tune he frequently Sings in his Second Treatise , or heap of uncertain Assurances , or most Assured Vncertainties about the Points ) he may keep his Think to himself if he will , and never thrust that forth as an Argument to evince any thing to us by ; its labour in vain , for we verily believe that in the most things at least that he gives us his Thoughts about , he does think it to be as he sayes he thinks ' t is . But what 's what he thinks to other men ? Is there any reason that we believing our own Eyes , should beleeve the Testimony of a man of no Credit with us , Asserting that for Truth , which we know to be utterly false ? I appeal to J O. Epist. Pag. 20. But if he will say the Scripture speaks any where of the Bounding and Consignation of its Canon by so many , or so few , or by such and such Books as are Extant only in your Bibles , and no other , I would fain know where it mentions any such , or where-ever the Apostles in any of their Synods or Sessions had any hand in any such matter ; and if not , I iudge I O. to be past such a Child , as to believe that what the Synods of succeeding Ages Constituted , Authorized , Canonized or Established , was done purely Per jus Divinum , or Apostolicum either . Yea , what I O sayes to the Quakers in the Case of Calling to the Light within , Ex. 3. S. 32. Proferant Fanatici vel unum sacrae Scripturae locum vel udum caelitus demissum Testimonium , quo ad eorum sidei & obedientiae Regulas seu directiones mittimur , &c. & causam non dicimas quin triumphant serio , &c. which Challenge of I. O. I am to Answer him in else-where . So say I to I.O. T. D. or any other Thinkers or Seemers to themselves to see . Proferant Fantastisi , &c. let these Pretenders to the Vision of this matter produce but one place of the Holy Scripture , or any Testimony from Heaven ( but such a one from above they can't , who deny Gods Spirit so speaking in these dayes as of old ) wherein God , Christ , or the Apostles set out the distinct bounds of their Canon , Directory , or Standard of the Old or New Testament , by such a precise parcel of Books as are in your Bibles , and exclusively of any other holy Writ , whether mentioned or not mentioned therein ; and wee l not say but they have Cause in this Case ( though if 't were as they say they must hang down their heads with shame in 20 more ) to triumph in earnest ▪ Si autem de suo tantum loquuntur mendaces sunt neque verum est eorum Testimonium ; if they talk of their own heads of things about the Scripture , which the Scripture Testifies not of it self they are Lyars , and their Testimony is not true . As to the Canon , as ye call it , or Standard of the Old Testament , there 's not the least Tittle of Tendency to any such thing hinted there , that it should consist of so many Books , and such shall stand in it , and such other , though as legitimate , and mentioned to be of God therein , as well as the rest , shall be shut out , and stand by : And in very Ezra alias Esdras his dayes when there was such a Paucity of Copies as thou well sayest I.O. Pag. 177. That in very deed the who'e Law was burnt ( as to the Originals its like at least ) 2 Esdras 14. 21 , 22 , &c. The Care of him , and his Companions , was great as thou sayest , as to the Restoring of the Scripture to its Purity when it had met with the greatest Tiyal that ever it under-went before , insomuch that what Books could be gotten together were copied cut , or else written de novo by the light of understanding kindled in Esdras his heart by the Lord , and many excellent thing done as to the Recovery of the Law into more purity in the very Letter of it out of the Babilonish rubbish , &c. but what 's all this as to the settling of this , and that , and t'other Prophecy into the distinct measure of a Standard by divine Appointment , and dis-Canonizing all others save such as are in your Bibles called Canonical , whether those of the Seers , Gad , Nathan , Iddo and the rest abovesaid that are specified in your Bibles , or those later which are allowed a room and standing in your Bibles , though not a room and standing in your Rule and Standard thereof , called Apocryphal , of which some were Esdras his own as well as some of the rest . Besides 't is evident , that Esdras and his Companions , if the Consigration and Bounding of the Canon were in their dayes , or by their Sanydrim set a work , and ordered by the insallible Spirit of God therein , wrote a number more of Books , 2 Esdras 14. 42. 44. then are now Extant in your Bibles , which if all lost , it makes against I.O. still , that sayes not an Apex of what was by divine inspiration , is lost ; and so his great Engine out of which he shoots short against the Truth , his Standard and Canon comes still lame , and short , and halting home . And also though Esdras and his Company Compiled many , yet the last Volume of the Psalmes is more credibly supposed , if I would enter into I. O's . Work of Answering Conjecture with Conjecture , to be truss'd up together in the dayes of the Maccabees , but all here is uncertain , and carried to and fro by Conjectures , and so there 's nothing sure on I. O's side . And as to the newer and later Scripture since Christ , where is the least touch of such a businesse of Constituting some few certain Books of those many more then we have , which were then written , into a Canon , and discarding othersome , whether such as we want , or such legitimate ones as we have , as that to Laodicea from within the Coasts and Quarters of your Canon ? Nay , rather the Scripture of the New sayes , as in the places above Cited , Rom. 15.4 . 1 Cor. 10.11 . 2 Tim. 3.16.17 . 2 Pet. 1.20.21 . That all Scriptures that are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , given , or written by Inspiration of old time , were to the same purpose that any at all were ; so that if any of it all , then all of it is to be listed into that Lydium Lapidem , and to be Confederate with the rest , and to come by right into the Confines of your Canon , all what ever was so written being alike written for our Instruction , alike profitable , alike publick , and none of it of a more private Interpretation then the rest ; Does that of T. D's . Citing , and I. O's . also , Ex. 3. 26. ( viz. ) Iob. 20.30.31 . prove any such thing ? If that be Exclusive of any Scripture at all , it must be of all that which was written after it ; forasmuch as , according to T. Ds. Exposition of it , it intimates a sufficiency in that which was already written ; and ( if wee l be befool'd with his sinister senses , and mindlesse meanings on the Scripture ) that when he had written that , there was as much as God himself thought sufficient to be written at all as a rule of Faith , or in order to mens beleeving , pag. 28. These are Written that ye might be'eeve , and have Life ; as if he should say , Here 's enough , what need more ? And as the Preacher said of old , Of making many Books , there 's no end ; by these be thou Admonished , they are words of Truth , therefore heed no more , Eccles. 12.10.12 . Will any of you say that in Iohn ( yet T. D twines it such a way ) will bear such a Construction as to be Conclusive of some Scriptures of Spiritually Inspired men into the use of a Canon or Standard , and exclusive of others as much of God as those ? On this account , as one might Interpret Solomon , as cutting off from the Canon all the Prophets Writings that succeeded his in the Old Testament Scripture ; so one must Interpret Iohn as Excluding out of the Standard of the New Testament all ensuing Writings of Holy men but his own , and his own Epistles and Revelation also , which were Posterior , or Successive to his History then in hand , as utterly uselesse and superfluous . Credat Apelia . Doth that Gal. 6. 16 As many as walk according to this Rule , or Canon , do it ? which blind Guides and People so hastily patter over , as if that mentioned the whole Bible and all that Writing , and not a Tittle more then what 's bound up in it , besides the Apocrypha ; when I shall shew in its proper place , it s spoken of no External Scripture of Writing at all ; I say , will that prove some to be Authorized of God for the Standard , and some even of the same Holy mens Writings though yet extant , not to be so ? Is there any such distinction in the sound of that Term [ This Rule ] whereby ( if it were meant of Scripture , as it s nothing lesse ) to give us to discern that Paul in that Expression includes his Two Epistles to Corinth , and that one to Ephesus and this to Galatia , and the rest of his own and other Apostles Writings , even the Revelation it self , that was not wrote in his dayes , that are Concincinated in your Copies as intended of God to be the Standard , and excludes his first to Corinth , his first to Ephesus , and that to Laodicea , as not intended of God to stand in the Standard , but to stand below it to be tryed , and judged by it ? Or by ( this Rule ) did he mean no more then what was already Written , which of you Wise men that render in your Interpretations that Term ( Rule ) there of an outward Letter , can Riddle me this ? If so as ye say , then he quite cuts off what should be Written after this , either by himself , for any other Inspired Writer , and so all Iohns Epistles , and his Revelation rom coming into that right it hath to Rule as the Standard among the rest ? Or if no , then that place ( and indeed it doth not ) makes not at all to I. O's . purpose ; who yet quotes it in proof of his Canon as carelesly as others do , for customs sake , among a vast Company of other Texts that he crowds on a heap one a top of another , not one of which proves the Point he there Propounds , viz. Scripturam post completum ejus Canonem esse Regulam , perfectissimam ita ut nullae Revelationes sint admittendae ; That the Scripture is so perfect a Rule or Canon , that after the Compleating of its Canon ( which was not when Paul wrote to Galatia , if Iohns Epistles , and the Revelation be a part of it ) [ mark that ] no more Revelations must be admitted , See Ex 3. S. 25 26. not one iot more then the Green Circle , that is seen about it in some misty Nights , proves the Moon to be made ( as they say ) of Green Cheese . And now I am upon that Term of thine I. O. Post completum ejus Canonem ; let me take it while it is in my mind , I much muse what ye mean by this so often Compleating and Bounding of your Canon ; and marvel what Epoche Iuncture and Period of time this perfecting of your Canon and Standard as to all its Integral parts must take its being and beginning ( as such ) and be counted from , so that before that time it can't be called a perfect Rule or Standard : If it be from that time which I. O. calls the Close of the immedia●e Revelation of Gods Will , Pag. 28. made when Iohn had written the Revelation , after which I.O. thinks nothing more was ever to be added by way of new Inspination ( which Thought of I. O's . I shall think to talk with hereafter ) it from that time I say , and not before , then t was not compleat it seems when Iohn wrote that Iob. 20.31 . nor yet when Paul wrote that Gal. 6.16 . And so neither of those Two places cited by both I.O. or T. D , do prove their Rule-perfect as to its Integrals , and compleat already , when Paul and Iohn wrote them : And yet for all that I can find by I.O. and T.D. both , they not only count their Canon compleat and perfect at the time of the Writing of those Two verses , but likewise produce those very Two verses , viz. I.O. both and T D. one of them , viz. Joh. 20.31 . and expresly and in effect the other , to prove their Rule to be a most perfect Rule and compleat Canon already long afore the supposed Close thereof in the Revelation ; yea , ( counting from the time of the Penning of that place , Ioh. 20.30 , 31. ) we have already ( quoth T.D. Pag. 28. ) as much as God thought sufficient ; as if that History of Iohn had pin'd the Basket , and brought up the Recto all the whole Standard of outward Scripture , and compleated it al●e●●y as sufficiently as God thought fit it ever should be ; yea , so sufficient , as that all that should be written after , should be held superfluous . No more then a most perfect Rule , it is now , a compleat Canon , sufficient Standard , adaequate to all Cases that come to be tryed by it , inalterable Touchstone , immutable Measure to measure all Spirits by , to which nothing may be added ( and I confesse , if the Writing be the Rule , Standard , Measure , true Word of God ; which its but a Writing of , it ought to remain from the first to the last , ad amussim , exactly the same , as to its Measure as well as to its Nature , and to have not one iot , not an inch , not a tittle added to it to make it larger , longer , or wider then at very first Canonizing and Authorizing into its Office , it ought to be steady and standing stedfast●y the same within it self , as well in its Quantity , as Quality , as a Substantive and not such an Adjective , as can't stand by it self without more , and more , and more Words and Writings still from time to time newly adjoyned to it , to shew its sense and signification about those things its to measure , determine , and to be the All in All , even both the Rule and the Iudge of , as ye make it ) I say it can be no more now it s thus compleated , as it is by successive Additaments from Moses himself to the Revelation , and not one jot lesse , it was ( according to you conceited Canonizers thereof ) before Iohn or Paul , or any of the New W●iters ever wrote ; no lesse then a perfect Standard , that had its Consignation and Canonical Bounding , and its borders , so set out , that what came not to hand , what appeared not at the Session of that Sanydrim , that sate in Ezraes dayes , to Try , and Iudge on , and Authorize what was fit to be the Iudge and Rule for themselves , and all after Ages to be Tryed by , must be Condemned as Apocryphal for ever ; and no lesse then so that little was , that was in the dayes of Isaiah , before himself , or any of the Prophets a●ter him had Written : To the Law , to the Testimony ( cry out Anti-Testimonists from Isa. 8. 20. like Rooks and Frogs , that gape and croak all alike for Compan●es sake , to the same Tune ) as if that were that little of the Letter only that then was , which I shall shew anon , was another matter ; and no lesse then a compleated Canon that little was that was in Davids dayes , which was little more then the meer Five Books of Moses ( if Ioshua , and Iudges , and Ruth were then written ) the Word was a Light to Davids feet , the Law , the Commandement of God David said was perfect , converting the Soul , enlightning the Eyes , rejoycing the Heart , giving wisdom to the Simple ( say the Simpletons of these times ) never heeding that that Commandement is the Lamp , Prov. 6.23 and the Law that Light in the Heart the Quakers speak of , Ma●th . 25.8 . Lu●e 12 35. and that Word , by which the young Man was to walk and cleanse his way , and that was a guide and a Light to Davids Paths , was not the outward Letter only of Moses Law ( for Moses Scriptures and Writings , and Davids too , did only Testifie of it , Deut 30. 14. 18. Rom. 10.8 Psal. 119. 9105 ) But the Word that was nigh in the Heart which David had , and hid also within him , that he might not sin against God , Psal. 119. 11. yea , no lesse then a Canon , that had its compleat Consignation and Bounding , for all Truth , which was the same then as it is now ( substan●ially ) to be Tryed by , when no more then Moses Five were extant , so long before it was enlarged into such a Volume as now the Bible is , by adding to the Old Word , were the Letter that Word of God , that 's the standing Measure ; I know not what to make of all these Additions to the Word , if the Letter be the Word , which have been made from Moses downward to this day , but matter of Plagues , Woes , and Reproofs to the Adders of their Writings to the First Writings ; but this I can say to the Excuse of such as call Moses Five only a compleat Canon , and in compleat Authority as a Standard , and a Rule , and the Word of God , and such like , full well may Five , or any one Book of Moses , or any one Chapter , or one Verse , never so small , in either his or any other Prophets Scripture be so , when if wee l believe I. O. when he Lyes , every Tittle and Iota of any of these outward Writings is not only Part of the Word , but The Word of the Great God , as Pag. 168.169 . Yea , every Apex of it equally , Divine , and as immediately from God , as the Voice wherewith , or whereby he spake to , or in the Prophets ; and is therefore accompanied with the same Authority ( i.e. ) as the whole is , both in it self , and unto us , Pag. 27. so then every Tittle is no lesse then a compleatly constituted Canon , and the whole is no more then so . And further , as to the New Testament ( as ye call the Letter of it ) as there is not the least Evidence , that any such thing as the specifying of what , and whose Scriptures or Writings the Canon should consist of , and what not ; so can any of you , that stand up so stifly for your ( fancied ) stable Standard , shew us where any Order is given out by Christ or his Apostles to such as should succeed them , to take Care to gather up their Writings , and Judge and try which of them they thought fit , and which not to own as their Rule , and Iudge , and accordingly digrading the rest , to Canonize such as liked them best , to submit themselves to the Tryal and Iurisdiction of , into the high Names and Authority of the Word of God , the Iudge , the Rule , the standing Canon both to them , and all the world , and all after Ages of it to the Worlds end ? Doth 2 Tim 3.13.14 . ( twice at least cited by I O. for fear of failing viz. Ex. 3. S 26.31 . ) prove it ? And doth 2 Tim. 2.2 . which is without either heed or wit urged , and by heedlesse I. O. as well as others , quoted ( though mis-quoted ) in the Margin of Pag. 166. to that purpose , prove in the least any such matter ? If it do , then say I am a Dunce ; if not , then see whether they are fit to be Doctors or Teachers in Divinity , that by reason of the beam in their eyes cannot behold , but divine so darkly besides a businesse that is as clearly contrary to what their brain conceives about it , as if it were written with a Sun beam : For the words of Paul to Timothy are these , viz. The things that thou hast heard of me among many Witnesses , the same commit thou to faithful men , who shall be Able to Teach others also : And in the other place these , But Evil men , and Seducers , shall wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived ( and so they do at this day , for all their scufling for the Scripture ) but continue thou in the things , which thou hast learned , and been assured of knowing of whom thou hast learned them . Whence it is by many , that would look upon themselves as wronged , if not looked upon as learned , as hastily concluded , as the places are hand-over head alledged . That Paul bids Timothy take the Scripture first committed to him by himself , and commit it downwards to faithful men , that must commit and continue it downwards still to others , and so successively to the worlds end as a Common , Continual Permanent , perpetually remaining Canon and only Standard for all Nations , and Spirits . Gods , and Mans , and Doctrines , true and false , to stand or fall by , from thenceforth even for ever . Which what a crooked Consequence it is , who , but Ignoramus , can be ignorant , whenas , if the Scripture had been the subject spoken of there by Paul , either it had extended no further then to his own Scripture to Timothy , which is but a petty Portion , and poor Pittance of Pauls Epistles , or if to all the rest of his Epistles , then it had been conclusive of that to Laodicea , and his first to Corinth and Ephesus , which have no being in your Bibles , which you say Contains all your Canon , and are by T. D. excluded from any Claim to it ; but in very deed there 's no such thing at all as the Scripture or outward Text there , either talkt on or intended ; but the things Timothy had learn't and heard from Paul by word of mouth , as well as writing , which though I own to be Truths and Doctrines , and things which are evermore according to the Scripture ( the Spirit , from which that was , never contradicting it self ) yet were another thing then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , the Writing or Scripture it self ; Paul sayes not those Scriptures , which thou hadst of me , &c. commit to faithful men to make a Standard of , but those Doctrines Truths , which thou hast heard of me , commit ; ( and those Truths were concerning the Light which Paul was sent to turn men to , and not the Letter , for he sayes God made him , and the rest , Ministers not of the Letter , but of the Spirit , Act. 26.18 . 2 Cor. 3.6 . And the Gift of God within Timothy , which he bids him stir up , 2 Tim. 1.5 ) Neither did Paul go up and down testifying to the Scriptures as a Standard , and telling men , which should be the Touchstone and which Scriptures not , but the things , which were Witnessed to there , testifying no other things , Quod Essentiam , to be believed or done then what were written in , and spoken by the Law and the Prophets , Acts 24. 14. & 26. 22. And those things Timothy heard , learned , and was assured of from Pauls both Words and Writings ; As also the things the Thessalonians , 2 Thess. 2.15 . had delivered to them partly by Pauls Preachings , and partly by his Epistles , and were accordingly to stand fast and continue in , but they were not the bare Bible it self , or Writings , or Scriptures themselves , which were not then by Paul or any bundled up and carried about in a Book to take a Text , and Talk out of for Money , as Ministers do now adayes . And if I. O. insist upon the next words , viz. 2 Tim. 3.15 . which place mentions the Holy Scriptures , and is mentioned I know not how many times over in I. O's . Book , in proof of that , which it in no wise evinces , and must be more plainly spoken to by me in due place . Rep. I Confess that next Verse doth mention the Scriptures , but more against , then to J. O's , purpose , and more disproves then proves what he draws from the other ; yea , it assures us , that it was not the Scriptures in any wise meant in the 14. Verse , for Paul saith to Timothy , That from a Child he had known the Holy Scriptures ( i.e. ) of the Old Testament , for those of the New were not as yet Canonized , nor All Written , if any of them were at all Written in Timothies Nonage ; but the Things he had heard and learned of Paul , and was bid to continue in , and commit to other faithful men to Teach , were such as he had come into the Knowledge and Assurance of after he was taken by Paul ( Acts 16.1 , 2 , 3. ) to Travel with him , which was not till he was grown past a Child ; If that Expression , Knowing of whom thou hast learned , Vers. 14. be granted to relate to Paul , which ( yet for ought you Literatists are able to gain say ) may rather relate to the Lord himself by the Gift of whose Grace ( i e ) the Light and Spirit in him , Timothy was ( and yet according to the Scriptures ) taught both more lately , 1 Tim. ● . 14 . and from a Child . So that neither of these two Texts teach any such matter as any of the outward Text of the New Testament Scriptures being either Canonized by the Apostles in their dayes , or ordered by them to be stated as a Standard in the Councels of succeeding Ages : And whatever men did ( de facto ) that way in the Second or Third Centuries , the Antiquity whereof ( as venerable as it is to some Anti-Scriptural , and Anti-Spiritual Antiquaries ) is with us but Novelty and Superstition , if it appear not to descend ( de Iure ) from the first ; yet we Quary still ( quo Iure ) by what Authority from God , Christ , or the Apostles , the Synods , and Men that so Authorized and Canonized what Scriptures seemed to them , as Challenging * so high a Title and Office , as the Word of God , Rule , Foundation , Canon , Standard , and such like , secluding other Writings , as Holy as these , were Authorized , or Commanded so to do themselves ? Neverthelesse , how weakly doth I O. ( Confessing first , That it doth not appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the several Writers of the Scriptures of the New Testament ( and the same say I of the first Manuscripts of the Old , which were burnt and lost , and scambled away before Ezraes S●nydrim , if the Consignation and Bounding of the Canon thereof was done by him and his Companions , as I.O. sayes ) were ever gathered into one Volume , there being now no one Church to keep them for the rest ; and that the Epistles , though immediately transcribed for the use of other Churches , Col. 4.16 . ( as I. O. thinks at least all were , because some were ) were doubtlesse kept in the several Churches whereto they were directed ; which Confession , if true , as sure enough it is , clears it that the Original Copies were never viewed together in one Bulk by any Councel or Synod , whereby to put it into a Capacity to Iudge and Determine of their fitnesse to make a Canon of , but only mens Copies of the Original , which but that every man will think his Think , and I.O. think as well as may be of it , * yet who can assuredly , insallibly , uncontroleably tell as I O. sometimes ( though sometimes again he will seem but to Think so ) undertakes to do in his grand Assertion , that they answer the first Original in every Tittle and Iota ? ) I say , before-hand Confessing all this , how weakly doth I.O. Assert with Confidence his Thoughts in this as a point of Faith , Pag. 166 , 167. that from those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there were quickly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Transcribed Copies given out to faithful men , whilst the infallible Spirit continued yet his guidance in an extraordinary manner , alluding to 2 Tim. 2.2 . as his only Proof thereof , out of which Original Copies , or rather Copies of the Originals so Transcribed ( for the Originals themselves never came together to be considered of by any Councel ) this supposed Canon was Composed by the Annexing of the Revelation to the rest by I O. said to be finally Compleated , Pa● . 28. God ( quoth he ) doth Command the close of the immediate Revelation of his Will to be Written in a Book , Rev. 1 ●● And so gives out the whole of his M●nd and Councel to us in Writing , as a stedfast Relief against all Confusion , Darknesse , Vncertainty , &c. Reply . As if , all Canonical certainty were no where but in a Written Letter , then which in regard of its liablenesse to be altered easily many wayes by lewd Criticks , whom I. O. Teaches to do it , Pag. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. As also by meer mis-Transcriptions ; mis-Translations , mis●Constructions , nothing is more uncertain to make a Standard of , unlesse it be the unutterably erring Breast or Head of that Harlot that Rides the Beast , and the unwritten Traditions that are Traduc●d , ad infinitum , from the same . 2. As if the Light and Spirit that shines and breaths in the Hearts of all , but most brightly and powerfully in the Hearts of such as heed it , were not more infallibly self evidencing , and certainly , and stedfastly demonstrative of the Mind and Will of God when looked on in its naked Native lustre , then when beheld thorow the vail of a Letter , which while Moses put over his face , the Children of Israel could never see certainly , nor distinctly discern , nor look stedfastly to the end of that which is abolished , but were blind in their minds , as our Ministers of the Letter are at this day , upon whose hearts the vail is untaken away , and ever will be , till , according to the Call of the Letter , they turn to the Light within , that comes from , and leads to the Lord himself , Christ Iesus , that Spirit , in whom only the vail is done away , 2 Cor. 3. Per totum . 3. As if the truest and most infallible Demonstration were Non ex veris , prioribus , certioribus , notioribus & causis internis Scripturae , but Ex fallibilibus , flexibilibus , posterioribus , obscurioribus & effectis , not by the internal Causes , the Truth and the Word it self the Scripture came from , which are before it , more certain and known then it , save to such as are willingly ignorant of them , but by the Scripture , which is but Effectus per emanationem , the Effect , that externally flowes from it , flexible , fallible , as alterable at Criticks Wi●ls , and unavoidably by mens weaknesse in Transcribing , Translating , Expounding , &c. at a Nose of Wax , a Lesbian Rule , more obscure , yea , obscurity i●le●f in the most plain Places to the Seers , that search it not in the Light and Spirit , but the dark Lanthorn of their own Imagination . Ah poor deluded Soul , I. O. whom I pitty more really and unfeignedly , then thou the Quakers , and for pitties sake dare not spare sharpnesse towards thy proud-fleshly Wisdom , that interposes and opposes it self against the Light and Power of God , in a shew of Science falsly so called , that thy Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus . Thou talkest of certainty of thy Rule , which is the Letter , and of stedfast Relief against all Vncertainty thereby ; Alas poor heart , whence come all those huge heaps ; and whole Chapters of Vncertainty it self , which thy T●o Treatises doth wholly stand in , but from that utter Vncertainty , that is in thy meerly literal Rule , which thou there Treatest upon , that is so far from stedfastnesse , that thou art forced to Confesse more variety in it at last , then at first entrance to Treat on its fixednesse , thou wast either witting or willing enough to do ; which Rule or Letter , as much as it hath been , and is capable to be wrested , is not by far at such uncertainty in it self , as ye that Profess to be Ruled by it , and stand upon it , as your Basis , are at endlesse odds and infinite uncertainty in your Conjectures and Guesses about it ; insomuch that it grieves me not a little for your sakes to see your Souls so sunk over Head and Ears in Confusion and confused Noises about it , in which the sweet still voice and silent whisperings of the Spirit of Christ within can have no Audience in that crowd of Pro and Cons , that ye are cumbred with about your very Foundation , which ye have not found yet , so as to this day to abide fixt and firm , or to be quiet concerning it in any Academies upon earth , but in vain Ianglings in all Corners thereof from one end of Christendom to another : Yea , I professe in the sight of God , that in such grief and bowels I write about it , that this Page and Passage passes not from under my Pen without being watered with many Tears for your sakes , whom I see perishing by your own Iuglings , unlesse happily ye will yet be pull'd as Brands out of the fire ; And in no wise think I.O. that I am so Angry at your Folly ( which the Deceit may suggest unto you ) as offended at the Enmity it self , that flyes up within you , and befools you . And seeing that thou I.O. seemeth to beg , wish , and hope for such a thing ( Crying out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in case of novelty of Points , and variety of Lections , as nor seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred Truth ) that those who have more Wisdom , and Learning , and are able to look throw all the Digladiations that are like to ensue on these Principles , would nather take the pains to instruct th●e and such as thou art , then be angry or offended with you , that ye are not so wise or learned as themselves ; And desiring such as are shaken in mind , to read the useful Miscellany Notes of ( as thou callst him ) the Learned Mr. Pocock . Reply : 1. Not as one Angry or Offended that ye are not so Wise or Learned as my self . Nor 2. As one pretending to much of that ye call Wisdom and Learning , which lyes more in outward Tongues , Arts , or Sciences ( falsly so called ) then in that of the Spirit , for want of which Peter calls men ( never so wise and well Learned otherwise ) both unlearned and unstable , and ( for all their buste buslings about it ) not Openers , but Wresters of the Scripture to their own ruine which shelly , shallow Theory into things of that nature , perhaps I have forgotten more of for the naked Gospels sake , then many of our Preachers of the Gospel for Pay ever learned , and yet have enough left , whereby to discern many Country Teachers or Doctors to be Dunces in it , yet what ever my measure is , more or lesse , further then as an Earthly Talent , foolish Instrument , or Wooden Tool for a long time laid aside , and here taken up again to serve the Truth with , against those that fight therewith against Truth , it s utterly lost and become dung and losse it self to me for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ my Lord that Spirit , in the Spirit and Truth in the inward parts : And of that aforesaid thin , foamy Speculation , I acknowledge that many of you have not only much more , then my long since Countrified self , but much more also then either does good , or does you good , unlesse ye had more of the true Wisdom from above , whereby to use it to a better end then ye do . * Yet , 3dly . As one who have obtained so much Mercy , and Ability frō God to see throw all the Digladations that are likely to ensue on the Principles that are now in agitation among your selves , as wel as between the Quakers and your selves , I herein take so much pains as is worth so much Patience as ye men of War are like to have with me for so doing , and tell you in the Name and Dread of the living God , whether ye bear or forbear ; that the shakings of mind that are among the learned Lievtenants of Antichrist at their Gates of Hell ( as honest Iohn Hus , and learned Luthur stiled the Vniversities ) about their own literal and fallible Foundation , will assuredly end in the final fall of it ( as a Foundation ) and all the Digladiations of those swattering Sword-men , who pretend to be fighting with the Sword of the Spirit about their supposed Sword of the Spirit ( i.e. ) the bare outward Letter , which they mistake for the Word of God , when in Reality they are at it with but the Scabbard about the Scabbard , will end in no lesse then the very sheathing of the true Sword of the spirit in the bowels of the Babel builders , that are so blindly busie about it in their divided speeches & confounded languages , and in the bringing down the Babel which ye all agree to build upon it , * whereby to over-top the light and Truth it self the Letter talks on , the fall and coming down of which Tripple Tower of the Tripple Tribe of Levi , the Clergy or lot ( as they call themselves ) of the Lords own Inheritance , hath already raised from their Thrones all the Kings of the Nations , and moved Hell from beneath to meet them , Isa. 14.9 . And what work more will attend this great Catastrophe of that Chaos , even the Old Heaven and Earth , the worldly Rudiments of which begin to melt , and the frail foundations thereof to shake , that they may remove , and the New come in place , that must remain , will ( as the Lord lives ) make the Eares to tingle in a little time to come , that now refuse to hear of it from the Tongues and Pens of the Lords Prophets , to whom it is revealed , and their minds amazed , and their Hearts shake and shiver that harden themselves against the troublesome Testimony of it . Wherefore , if thou art in earnest in thy Enquiry , I tell thee I.O. by way of Answer to thy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that if not only thy Rich Possession ( as thou stilest it ) of the Hebrew Punctation , and that non-variety , or unity , and indentity of Lection in thy Copies , but also all the Copies of the Original that are in the World , and Translations too , come utterly to moulder , perish , and passe away , as the Originals themselves have long since done ; yet Truth is the same that it was before any Letter or outward Text of it was , both Quoid Essentiam , and Quoad Explicationem also in the Hearts and Consciences of all men in a measure , and in such a measure in the minds of such as love it , and walk in what of it is therein by the Light and Spirit of God made manifest , that there 's no such need to them , as there is to thy self and others , who yet hatest the Light , of such piteous Out-cryes as thou makest upon the Hypothesis aforesaid , nor of such direful Affrightments and Amazements as over take and ●u●prize thee and all the Hypocrites and Sinners in Sio● , whose Manition it self is now nothing but Magor Misabib , fear round about ; while theirs , who walk up ightly by the Light , and live by i● , which leads into the substance of the Lite it self the Letter calls for , is the Manition of Rocks , and Salvation it self , which God appoints to them for Walls and B●●warks ; yea , these dwell with that devouring fire and everlasting burnings , which are now kindled by the Worlds wickednesse , and burning down to Hell , to the consuming the very Foundations of the Earth ; and with God himself , who is a consuming ●re to the stubble , and C●ass , and Bryars , and Thorns , that are now set against him to battel , and their daily bread is given them , and their Waters shall be sure , so that they shall not need with the Wicked , whose Trust is in man , upon whom the Curse of the Heat cometh , who inhabit the parched places of the Wildernesse , and must not know when the Good cometh , nor taste of the streams that flow in the Desert , nor of the Brooks , nor of the Floods of Honey and Butter , to send such hot and hasty Hae and Cryes , as thou dost , after a long since lost Letter to live upon , to see if any can tell Tydings of every Tittle , Apex , and Iota thereof , or else all Life of Truth is lost for ever , if all these dead Things be not found , restored , recouered and revived to that Life they never had , and Rendezvouz'd again out of the Romish Rubbish : What shall such as follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes , and have come throw great Tribulation with him , and washed their R●bes white in his Blood , and been thereby Redeemed from the Earth , and Tongues , and Kind eds thereof , and stand with him on Mount Sion , and hear his voice , as his sheep did of Old , become such Babes and Idiots again , as to think with thee , and thy fellow Thinkers , That all Truth 's lost , if one Tittle of the Text of your Transcripts have been s●●●t by fallible Scribes in their Transcribings of it ; and to wander over the World from Library to Library , Author to Author so their Thoughts , from Academy to Academy with you universally betwa●ed university Wonderers after 〈◊〉 , and Boyes Toyes , and Cou●ters , and Tags , and Pins , and Points , and Tittles , and Iotaes , and such Rich Possessions , infinite Inheritances , guilded Horn-book-geer , Primer Promises , Psalters , and Old Testaments , and Bibles , and Books , which they could read as perfectly as your selves long since , as to the literal sense thereof , which ye labour so about , that ye have no leasure to learn and look into the Mastery of the holy matter it self ; and many more such Gay Trimmings , and Trappings wherewith ( like Children that think themselves fine when they are bestangled and hung with Points ) our Academian Adorers of the dead Corps of their ( Conceited ) to a Tittle entirely true and exactly corrected Copies , deem themselves above all men to be Adorned ? Shall we ( because thou seest none ) see no means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in , and about all sacred Truth it self , if the Text , wherein it s but 〈◊〉 , be Translated totally away , or but mis-Transcribed , or misTranslated in some Tittles , or but taken away from the Points , that men at several Periods have put to it ? What silly suppositions are these to you ( supposed ) Seers , or ( deemed ) true Teachers ( for shall we think our Learned Divines do not certainly Divine the Truth ? say the young Students and stupid starers upon the 〈◊〉 and stones they take Councel at ) who when all is done are but meer de●●●s and supposers , and such as can Treat out no more but your thoughts about either that Sacred Antiquity of your present Punctation , p. 211. or your so absolutely Asserted Integrity and Identity of your naked literal Text , without any corruption of it by any mis-transcriptions , or variety of Lections in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag 13.317 . Yea verily , whether we consider either one or t'other of these two bottoms that thou thinkest all Sacred Truth and certainty of it is so founded upon , that if they fail all falls remedilesly for ever , p. 18. Thou I. O. makest no provision for so much as the probable proof of these , but leavest them both , notwithstanding al thy seruple about them ( on the certainty of which thou makest all Truth everlastingly to depend ) as uncertain at least as they were without thy talk for them , or , if there be any alteration at all in the case of their uncertainty , thou hast by thy hosty bandling of that matter made it more certain and out of doubt to me , then it was before , that the points are Novel , and not Coaevous with the Consonants , and that the letter is abundantly altered and corrupted in the very copies of the Original Text itself . Take but a Review I.O. of some few of thy Thoughts upon these two matters , and thou wilt discern , if thou be not blinded , that all the World may see thy overlashing Positions ( viz. That the points are coaevous with the first manuscripts , and that the Text remains intirely the same in your Transcripts as at first giving out , without any losse , alteration or corruption to a Tittle ) are supported with no more then solely thy suppositions . CHAP. IV. FIrst , for the Punctation , what positively thou affirmest of it in a Note above Ela , is to be seen in thy Epist. Pag. 19. 20. 25. and in thy Book Pag. 211. 216. 220. 225. 294. and throwout the whole Four and Five Chapters of thy Second Treatise : At present , wee 'l see how piteously thou underproppest thy Opinion about it with the putting in of thy meer Imaginations to other mens , and not to say Imposing , but Opposing thy Suppositions , taken from the meer suppositions of such Learned Authors as thou sidest with , against the ( more solidly ) grounded suppositions of such as were , are , and are confessed by thy self to be Learned , as well as they : and how thou confessest thou Answerst one Conjecture no otherwise then with another , and standst thrusting with thy weak , wonted Weapon of ( Shall we Think ) Pag. 168. against others strong Arguments to the contrary . First , It is urged , and that with no little shew of Truth , that the old Hebrew Letters being those the Samaritan Pentateuch is written with at this day , and that the Samaritan Letters having alwayes been , and still being without Points , it must follow that the Points are an Invention and Innovation of a later date then the change of the Letters , which was not till Ezraes dayes , and not Goaeuous with the first Scripture , Pag. 260. in which the Consequence being undeniable , thou makest bold to think the Antecedent may be false ; and among a deal more of doubtful stuffe to say , that 't is most uncertain when , and in what Character the Samaritans received the Pentateuch , P. 261. & that the Letters thereof were the Antient Hebrew Letters : As for what Eusebius , Hierom , and some of the Rabbins Report , it seems to thee on the best Enquiry thou art able to make a groundlesse Tradition and meer sable , because though Eusebius affirmed it was so affirmed , yet tells not on what ground ; And though Hierom himself be positive in it , yet he might be mistaken in this as well as he was in some other things like to it , as Pag. 234. he saw not all things ; and that the Talmud is of no weight with thee . Reply . What pedling Disproof is here of I.O. pushing against Two Antient Fathers Positions , and the Testimony of the whole Talmud of the Rabbins , with no more then the Bean-stalk of his own Suppositions and slender Sayings , It 's of no weight with me ; It seems to me a Tradition , pag 262. and , It doth not appear to me , whence this Change of Character should arise ; The Jewes are thought , and said in the Captivity to have forgot their own Character , and learn'd the Caldean , so as to adhere to it in their Return , but that the men of one Age should forget the use of their own Letters is incredible . Yet say I more then Credible ; yea , certain it is , that though the Antients alive at the burning of the First , and building of the Second Temple , did not likely forget their own , yet in and after the Captivity the Chaldean Character was used , witnesse the Books of Daniel , Ezra , Nehemiah , Ester , in which much is written in Chaldee ; I say then , what straw and stubble , and unsteady stuffe is all this , which our Doctoral Students in Divinity stand so upon as to stiffen themselves by it against each other in their sturdy Disputes about their stupidities ? yet so far are solid Saints from putting any stresse , much more so much as I.O. who states and trusts no lesse then whole sacred Truth thereon , upon such Ticklish Pinnacles and Points , or from strengthning themselves in their Faith towards God thereby , that it s even a stink to them to see any so senslesse , as so to do , on either hand , Pag. 263. 2. The Argument for the Novelty of the Points from the Antient Iudaical Coines found with Samaritan Characters upon them , is refel'd with the Rush of thy own ridiculous and reasonlesse Fancies ; which sith they are too frivolous to Rehearse , I refer the Reader , that is minded to be so foolish as to follow thee in that high Road ( as thy self there callst it , and so savest me the labour of sprinkling it into that Name ) of Forgeries and Fables , in which thy self , as well as those thy Opponents are altogether , to Pag. 264 , 265 , 266 , 267. where he may Read thee Rendring of simple Supposition against Supposition , or rather against Position , disproving Ignotum per magis ignotum , dubium per magis dubium , pelting back out of thy Pot-gun such brown Paper as this at the Probable Arguments of others , ( viz. ) May we not think , &c. It is not improbable that it was so old , nor is it improbable that 't was so , &c. I cannot think the Greeks of old used only the Vncial Letters , which yet we know some did , &c. I shall crave leave to Answer this Conjecture with another , and grant that such a Change was made , yet this prejudices not them in the least , who affirm Ezra , and the men of the Great Congregation , to have been the Authors of the Points ; Nay , it casts a probability on the other hand , namely , That Ezra laying aside the Old Letters , because of their difficulty , together with the other introduced the Points , to facilitate their use . And Lastly , To bring up the Reerward of thy manifold Fictions foisted out against the urgings of that probable Proof from the Characters upon the Coines , after thou hadst prosecuted them a while passim testaque lutoque , thou Concludest thus , viz. Now let any man Iudge from this heap of Vncertainties ( of which say I I. O's . there accumulated , are I know not how many , to one of the other ) any thing can arise with the face of a witnesse to be admitted to give Testimony ; on either hand , say I , much lesse on I. O's . whos 's own heap of confessed uncertain Conjectures is manifold more Massy , then that of his Antagonists , yea , as weighty as the very Wind it self . He that will part with his Possession on such easie Terms ( quoth I.O. there ) never found much benefit by it . And , say I , He that will part with much Labour and Pains to find out the Antiquity of this Possession of Hebrew Letters , Points and Tittles , and think to get much benefit by purchasing it to himself therewith , as R●ch and Ancient an Inheritance , as I. O. pretends it is , Pag. 252. 318. and as many Millions as he sayes Pag. 176. look'd on , and enjoyed it for many Ages as their chiefest Treasure , Pag. 163. he shall assuredly have his labour for his pains . And if I may crave leave to interpose so far as to Answer I. O's . many uncertain Ones , with one more certain Conjecture , I tell I O. that he hath himself Conjectured away the very thing he Conjectured for , and tost his own Cause so long to and fro among the multitude of his uncertain Thoughts , Conjectures , and Suppositions , till unawares to himself , in the Crowd thereof , he hath lost it altogether , and supposed it into the very bosom of his Opponents ; for if Ezra , and his Congregation were the Authors of the Points , and introduced them ( as he sayes the Argument from the Characters on the Coines renders it probable that they did , Pag. 266 , as is abovesaid ) then proculdubio , for certain and of a Truth it may both be Conjectured , and must be credibly and infallibly believed , that they are so far from being Coaevous with the first Manuscripts , that they were invented and introduced ( though before the Tiberian Massorites ) yet after all that he owns as the Canonical Scripture of the Old Testament was first written ; and so he gives it in for granted that they are a Novelty , and not a thing that was from the beginning of the Scripture , which is that he is to prove , or else it comes short of his purpose , so as to adde an inch to his Arch Assertion of a non Alteration of the Text , as at first given out in any Tittle , and so , as if he had not , in Pag. 211. to the contradicting of his own meer Conjecture and Conceit of their Coaevousnesse with the immediate Manuscripts , said thus , I no wayes doubt , but as we now enjoy the Points , we shall manifest that they were compleated by Ezra and his Companions , and so confounded himself enough ; he hath by this Reiteration of the same self-confuting . Conjecture about the Points , overthrown himself as to that Point altogether the first Writing of the Pentateuch , being by his own Confession , Pag. 5. a thousand years elder then Ezra , and according to himself all the rest both written and lost before Ezra the Scribe and his fellows dayes , who he makes but the Transcribers and Restorers of them ; So Pag. 27. out of Azarias he ascribes the Figure and Character of the Points to Ezra , and the restoration of their use to the Massorites ; Whether then the Points be from Ezra , or the Tiberian Massorites , is much at one to the Root and Bottom of thy businesse I. O. which is to evince , that the Text stands entirely the same in your Pointed Copies to a Tittle , without variation from what it was , when first Written , and that the Points are Coaevou with the Scripture it self : And thou talkst that according to the general belief of the Jewes they are ( if not from Moses , yet ) at least from Ezra , not denying the use and knowledge of them received a great reviving by the Massorites , when they had been much disused , Pag. 247. from which Massorites yet ( for ought thou clearly , or any more but Conjecturally , and very uncertainly makst appear to the contrary ) they might as well receive their first being , according to the Testimony of Elias Levita who ( as thy self sayest , Pag. 248. ) was the most learned Grammarian of the Iewes in his Age , and Assistant to Paulus Fagius in his noble promotion of the Hebrew Tongue ; and the Testimonies of Luther , the renownedst Reformer , in his time , as ever Europe had , and of Zainglius and others then that imbraced his Opinion , and of Capellus whom thou stilest a Learned Protestant Divine ; and of that Learned Professor , Dr. Iohn Prideaux in his Publick Lecture at the Vespers of your own Oxonian Counitia , on that Subject ; which Dr. I.P. it s no disparagement to Dr. I.O. to Confesse to have been in his time far before himself , as to Schoole Divinity , though we know that O. stands preferred a little before P. in the Horn-book , Pag. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 of thy Epist. And to Capellus his Argument that ' t was likely . Elias spake on Principles of Conviction of Truth , because against the common interest of all his People , which seems to have weight in it , how pedlingly thou Replyest and Pelletest out thy Putations to the contrary , Pag. 248 , 249 , 250. a very Boy may behold ; the most material of which is this , viz. That the Testimony of this one Elias should be able to out-weigh the constant Attestation of all the learned Jewes to the contrary , as Capellus pleads , and as is insinuated in that Prolegomena is fond to imagine ; To which I say , Why so ? Elias thou Confessest to Assert what he did in such honestly , as not in way of sleighting the Points , nor the Scripture , any more then if they had been the Work of Ezra , from whose dayes , and no higher , thou derivest their Pedigree ( but sith thou canst not do it from Moses , thy Antiquity is but Novelty with us ) So , why may not the Testimony of one learned and honest Elias now out-weigh the Testimony of many Iewes , now ( whose general Testimony thou sleightest , and them too , as wicked , when they speak against thee ) as well as the Testimony of one Elias of old out-weighed that of 950 of the Prophets of Boal , and the Groves , 1 King , 18 ? Thirdly , And as to the Argument from the Iewes keeping a Copy without Points , which they adore in their Synagogues , thereby little lesse then implying the Points to be of man , and not of Divine Original ; Which Argument is of weight , for , if the Letters were the Word , and the Points with them a part , of as Divine Original as the rest , they durst not diminish ought , much lesse so great a part as the Points , knowing the Curse denounced in it against all detracters from it , Deut. 4.2 . This thou resellest as falsly , and self-confutingly as the rest , saying , Pag. 267 , 268 , 269. 1. It s the constant Opinion and perswasion of them all ( Elias only excepted ) that they are of divine Extract . Reply . Which if it were as certain to thee , as it but seems so , on the Conjectures of such , as thou sidest and consultest with ; yet Elias ( ur prius ) might be right , and they all wrong , being all under the Curse , as well as some , so that their Testimony about Scripture , though they have it among them , is no more to be heeded with thee , where it makes against thee ( and why it should be more when it makes for thee , a reasonable man can't see ) then Aesops Fables , as to the use of the whole Talmud of the Robbins in Christian Religion , Pag. 236. 240. 2. To let passe the rest as pedling , thou tellest that and the Reason why the Jewes ( who have , for ought I find , more Books without then with Points ) have their Canon and Standard without them , is ( as they alledge ) the difficulty of Transcribing Copies without any failing , the least rendring the whole Book , as to its use , in their Synagogues , prophane . Reply . To which say I , If it be so difficult , then how darest thou date so deeply as thou dost on the unquestionablenesse of the Transcripts of the Bible with Points being as entire to a Tittle as the first ? This is ( ad hominem ) enough to confute thy own vain Confidences about the non-corruption of the Text throw all Ages to this day . And again , Because the least failing renders their Standard prophane , therefore they 'l make their Standard of such a Copie , as shall fail altogether , as to the Points , as divinely Essential a part with them ( secundum te ) as the very Consonants themselves : Credat Appella : he that believes not that Conjecture about the Scripture , shall never come into Condemnation ( as I.O. talks some shall for not owning the whole Letter and its Tittles as the Word of God ) for his damnable unbelief , I dare assure him . 3. That the Jewes end seems to be this in not Pointing their standing Copies , viz. That none be admitted to read or sing the Law in their Synagogues until he be so perfect in it , as to be able to observe all Points and Accents in a Book where there are none of them . Reply . Which is another Whimzy of thy own brain , for I have often seen and heard their Service Read and Sung in their Synagogues by young Boyes , as the mouth of the whole body of 7 or 8 years of Age or little more , however at utter incapacity to observe all Points so exactly as thou speakst of , where there are none . And to the rest of thy Answers throw that whole Chapter to the other Arguments against the Coavousnesse or Connaturalnesse of the Points , from Elias his Testimony , the Talmuds silence about the Points , the Keri and Ketib , from the number of Points and vowels , beyond that of differences of the sounds assigned to them , the Antients silence about their Vse among the Hebrews , which are cogent enough to any but such as thy self , who buildst all sacred Truth upon the uncertain bottom of these Apices and Points , and thereupon are foolishly afraid , that all the Word of God must go out of the World , if thy Fancies about them be not owned , * they are made up of such a dirty deal of Tittle Tattle and frivolous fabulosity , that as very a fool as I have become for thy sake & the Truths , to medle so much with these immaterialities , and rake so far as I have done into this Pudle of thy Pedantick Prate for thy so highly-prized Points , yet ( as thou , p. 32. ) I shall forbear , having better accounts to give of my time and hours , then to be mad in that manner , and shall insanire cum ratione ; and though I have turned my self a while with thee to behold , and take a view of some of thy madnesse and folly , yet I shall wade no farther after thee into any more particular Consideration of thy many vanities in that Chapter , but after a while return to things of more worth among wise men , telling thee this for Truth I. O. That the dark and dismal Dreamings of thy ( self-devised ) Dangers hanging over the head of all Sacred Truth , to the making Havock thereof , which have entered and centered themselves in thy Imaginatory mind , and of that mischief which thou conceivest will accrue to your carnal , Clerical C●n●e●nments and earthly Interests , Honours , Profits , and Preferments , in case the Scripture and its Transcripts and Tittles , which is the Commodity ye mainly Trade in , be not kept up in that over-high Account it hath been in , in times of Ignorance , and thereby poor People kept still in Dependance on your Vniversity Doctorships , under blind Conceits , that they cannot learn the Mind of God but by your Expositions , pag. 268. And that great Uncertainty which thou ( not seeing yet thy self , but jeering , as Doctorem infallibilem , the only true infallible Doctor or Teacher , the Light and Spirit of God within ) seest and confessest , pag 292. ye shall be left unto in all your Translations and Expositions of the Scripture , without the owning of these Points to be of divine Original ; and thy knowing that ye must , to the shame of your selves , and the shaking of your kingdom in the very Foundation thereof , confesse and grant , as ye are loath to do , which yet is no more then the Truth , viz. That if the Points be but Novel your ( professedly ) uncorrupt Copies are not a little corrupted and different from what the first Originals were , throw the failings of Transcribers , and so , failing in your ( falsly so called ) foundation , must be forced to begin again , and lay the true one with the Quakers , which is that of Christ himself , the Light , which rather then do , since you have so much persecuted and disowned them , ye will rake your brains to the bottom to find something to say against the Truth , which is so tedious ; This is the grand Cause and whole profound mystery of this Businesse of thy busie busling and brawling so much for the necessity of the Points being owned , as of so high an Original , which else there 's no necessity at all of owning either at all as of such importance as thou pleadest , or any otherwise then as the meer handi-work of Man. Having therefore given this taste of the fallibility of thy flashy shallow Shufflings off what is more warrantably and weightily urged against the pretended Antiquity of the Hebrew Punctation as Coavous with the Scripture and Connatural with that Language , I shall here Glean up some other scambling sayings of thine about the Points , from several Quarters of thy Book , worth heeding upon no other account then the crudity , absurdity , and Ridiculousnesse of them , and make some Miscellany Replies to , and Notes upon them , that I may rid my hands as fast as I can of that rusty stuffe and mouldy matter , now I am upon it , wholly , and not have occasion to handle it much more in other places . I. O. Thou sayest , pag. 252. That it is not thy design to give in Arguments for the Divine Original of the present Hebrew Punctation , neither dost thou judge it necessary so to do , while Buxtorf about that lyes unanswered . Reply . Then ( I say ) thou hast hung thy Reader up in the Air , and there left him among Gapes and Stares ; for pag. 153. thou pretendest to plead and undertake to vindicate the Letter to be as t was given out , and handed to us without alteration , which put me into an expectation of something of that nature , but parturiunt montes , &c. A long-Tays'd-Tale runs out of a great mountain of Talk for many pages together , to prove the wickednesse of the Massorites , on whom the points are fathered , which is all of it ( as thou Confessest of some part of it , nothing at all to thy purpose , pag. 235. ) but neither one Tittle of so much as a Topical Argument to clear the businesse , nor a nomination of one out of Buxtorf : But Nil dat quod in se non babet , hadst thou had any to produce , it had been more useful then all thy babling , to evidence the inalterablnesse of the Bible , which was thy businesse to prove , and is so necessary that none but fools will by thy floud of Words be flim-flam'd into thy Faith , without such Arguments to evince the Truth on 't in that point , which thou are never able to urge in proof of it : Howbeit Two Considerations thou addest at the end of that Chapter of thy Second Treatise , wherein thou treatest of this Point of the Hebrew Points , as of weight to thee [ to add weight to all that light , scanty-measured matter , that went before ] propounded in such an indigested , mangled , hampered , tediously tangled manner , that he must be wiser then I , that can well tell what to make of them , or find in them so much as Top or Bottom , or plain Premises , or clear Consequence , or any kind of Conclusion at all save that they are the Conclusion of that Chapter ; So that though there 's a talk in them of Grammar and Rules of Art , and the world of Points not coming together by chance , and of the Chaldee Peraphrast , and many more matters , yet they seem to me to be a couple of confused Chaosses , that came to passe more by chance then by any Rules of Art , and a world created by a casual concurrence of Antick Attomes , more then any wisdom of either God or Man Consisting of the Circumference of no lesse then wel-nigh 7 pages together ; I shall therefore , rather then puzzle my self in prying too much into such an orderlesse , boundlesse piece of Prate as that is , keep what I know of it within my own bowels , and not send out an Answer to I know not what , and to that which ends I know not where , and runs I know not whither , taking the Councel of the Poet , who said , Ne immittas pecus tuum in pratum ubi non est sepes : I. O. Thou sayest , Epist. pag. 19 , 20. That thou darest not mention the desperate Consequences of that Opinion concerning the Novelty of the Hebrew Punctation , being affrighted among other things , by a little Treatise lately sent thee , wherein the Author who-ever he is , from some Principles of this nature , and unwary Expressions of some learned men among you , labours to eject and cast out , as use'esse , the who e Scripture , or Word of God. Reply . Which Scripture , say I , had it never been , nor were it more to be ( as it must moulder once , though , as I told thee above , I am free it should stand its time , for such service , as to cast out such men , as useless , that have cast off the Light and Spirit ) yet is the Word of God as useful still as 't was before , and ever will be ; being that by which all is upheld for ever , when the Scripture , that yet testifies of it , shall moulder and come to nought , as thy scribling Scripture , that testifies to that more holy Scripture shall do ; And as for thy frights I cannot blame thee for crying out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when thou seest thy Foundation sink , and fail , and crack under thee , which is but a fallible Letter , a Sandy Seat , a brittle Bottom ; but such as stand on the Rock of Ages , which the Scripture witnesses to , will stand in the approaching storms , wherein thou and all thine will fall , Mat. 7. And some see the end of that , thou knowest not the Mystery of . I. O. That had that Leprosie or Opinion about corruption of Scripture , undermining the Authority of the Hebrew verity , kept it self within that House ( i.e. ) the Synagogue of Rome , which is throwly infected , it had been of lesse importance , it is but a farther preparation of it for the fire , but it is now by the subtilty of Satan crept in , and broke forth amongst Protestants also , with what design , to what end and purpose thou knowest not , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the day will declare it , Epist. pag. 13 , 14 , 27. Reply . Yea , and does declare it to many already , though ye that are of the Night and darknesse , where nothing but Errour and Terrour is , see no Truth , and are afraid of your own Shadows , and in the guilt of your guilful gailed Consciences and benighted minds , fear what it will grow to , and what mischiefs and inconveniencies will ensue on searching too critically , too neer into your own Rule of Scripture ; but though ye ●ommend ( as thou dost , Epist. pag. 20. ) the knowledge of the Tongues , and the use of that knowledge in Critical Observations , and that Study and Employmen● as unexpressibly , advantagious and helpful in Explanations of sundry difficulties , yet feeling your own and your fellows mind ( measuring others each by himself ) to be exceedingly vain-glorious curious uncertain after a door of Reputation and Renown is once opened , as ready quickly to spread over all bounds and limits of sobriety ; ye are afrighted to think what will now come on it to have learned men exercise their Critical Abilities about the Scripture , for fear they find your Foundation faulty and fallible , and full of flawes , and so had rather believe it to be sound at a venture , seeing ye know no better to stand on , then to have it sounded , and found to be so unsound as it is , Epist. pag. 20 , 21. J. O. That it is not imaginable , what prejudice the Sacred Truth of the Scripture . Reply . The Truth told in it , I tell thee , is the same for ever , and can't be changed let the Scripture become what it will , and suffer the losse of its whole self . J. O. Preserved by the infinite Care and Love of God , hath suffered already hereby . Reply . And ( as if not enough ) thou teachest Criticks and tellest wayes to make others Criticks that never meant it , whereby instead of thy helping hand ( such is thy Wisdom in the handling thy own businesse , like an ill Bird that bewrayes his own Nest ) to Recover it , its likely to suffer more . J. O. What it may further suffer for thy part , thou canst not but tremble to think . Reply . Yet to be sure it suffers nere the lesse , but rather much more for thee ; and though thou art not more afraid then hurt , yet some are not afraid , nor hurt , who dwell higher then thou dost , whose place is the munition of Rocks , who see the end of that which seems a terrible gulf and praecipice to thee , viz. That when Theeves fall out , true men will come by their Goode , and all things by their proper Names and Nature . I. O. Thou sayest , Epist. 25. That thou ca●●● not but tremble to think what would be the issue of such a Supposition , that the Points , Vowels and Accents are no better guides to us then may be expected from those who are pretended to be their Authors , pag. 220. Reply . Therefore the best way is , to suppose nothing at all about them , it matters not much whence they come , there they now are ; and thy carking will not prove them to be of these men , or those , Novel or Antient ; and then all thy often tremblings about that Toy will be taken away : Neverthelesse , whether thou leave , or cleave to them , it s much at one to thee , tremble thou must at the true Word of God when all is done first or last , what ere becomes of the Scripture of it . I. O. That lay but these Two Principles together , namely , That the Points are a late Invention of the Jewish Rabbins ( on which account it ; confest there 's no reason we should be bound to them ) and that its lawful to gather toge●her various Lections by the help of Translations , thou must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Where shall I stand ? as not seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all Sacred Truth , pag. 25. Reply As if the Light and Spirit were lost , and all Certainty lost if the Letter be ; and all I O's . rich Possession perish'd , if Points fail : And yet what uncertainty soever ye come to thereby , certain enough ' us , that there are various Lections , and of the two , for ought thou makest appear to the contrary , 't is more certain that the Points were an Innovation & Invention , and not from the beginning of the Writing , then otherwise ; and as certain 't is that I.O. himself , if he could see it , or would confesse what he confesses , doth little lesse then confesse it so to be , while he can say no more but that As he shall not oppose them who maintain them Coaevous with the Letters , which are not a few of the most learned Jewes and Christians ( against not a few learned Jewes and Christians by I. O's . Confession ( viz ) Elias Levita , of whom he testifies , pag. 284. That he was the most learned Grammarian of the Jewes in his Age , Assistant to Paulus Fagius in his noble Promotion of the Hebrew Tongue ; Capellus , whom he calls a learned man and a Protestant ; Io. Prideaux who is before I.O. Luther the renownedst Reformer in his time , as ever Europe had ; Zwinglius and others ) So he no way doubts but that as we enjoy them they were Compleated no higher upwards then Esdras his time , by the men of the Great Congregation , guided by the infallible direction of the Spirit of God , which was after all the Old Testament was written , & a thousand years after some of it ; and so , pag. 211. 220. See also pag. 247. 259. where he sayes , The Jewes generally believe the Points as Old as from Moses on Mount Sinai , or at least ( quoth he ) from Ezra ( so he is in doubts ) not denying but that they , as to their knowledge and use , received a great Reviving by the Massorites , and Gemarists . I. O. That the Word of God ( i.e. ) Scripture hath been hitherto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to its litteral sense , and reading , the acknowledged Touchstone of all Expositions ; render this now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and what have we remaining firm and unshaken ? pag. 219. See more pag. 217. 218. of Uncertainty . Reply . The Light , Spirit , Word it self , and the Kingdom and things thereof , which cannot be shaken , but must remain when the worldly kingdom of worldly Priests , and their Foundation , and their rich Possession of Letter and Hebrew Points , and all their Religion , Faith , Worship , House , Bottom , and whole Building and Fabrick that stands thereon , and the old Heaven and Earth and all the Works of man that are therein , and their Writings , and Tomes and Talmuds , &c. ut alibi , and such like ( in which I O. is exercised in his Second Tale of a Tub ) and Sea and Land , and all Nations , Formalists , and their Forms , Professors , and their Professions , Doctors in Divinity , and their false Dreames and Divinations , and not only Popes , Cardinals , Mount-Seniors , Monks , Friars , Iesuites , and all that Rabble of Rabbies , and Deans , and Chapters , Arch-Bishops , Deacons , Deans and their Officials , Parsons , Vicars , Curats , and all manner of spiritual Persons of that spawn ; but also all sorts of those narrow mouth'd Bottles , that have none of the new Wine in them , and are as long in letting out , as in getting in what they have of their old Wisdom , as well within Vniversity Liberties as without , and all Masters , and Prebends , and Deans of Colledges , and their Christs Churches , and all their beggarly Elements must be on fire about their ears , and melt away with fervent heat , and be burnt up and shaken down , as leaves from the Fig-tree , by the mighty Wind of the Lords Spirit , that now blowes upon all flesh , that it withers , and is as the Grasse and its Flower , and utterly like a Cottage , which after much reeling to and fro , must be removed for ever , and for ever . I.O. Thou sayest , pag. 221. That thou hadst rather all the Works like to the Biblia Polyglotta , which yet thou acknowledgest the great usefulnesse of , and art Thankful ( Owen ) for it , were out of the World , then that this one Opinion of the Novelty of the Hebrew Points , espoused to that great work , Epist. pag. 17 , 18 , 19. should be received with the Consequences that unavoidably attend it . Reply . The Consequences that unavoidably attend the receiving of Truth are dangerous to thee , but of no other then good concernment to such as dwell not in the Scriptural Skirts & meer literal Suburbs of it ( as thou dost , who being without the Salvation it self , which God appoints to his for Walls and Bulwarks , startest at the newes of every storm and the shaking of every Leaf ) but in the holy City , and in the substance of the Truth it self : The Cup of trembling must be taken out of their hands , and put into the hands of thee and thine , that have hated and afflicted them , and Rid over them , and said , Bow down thy back that we may go over , and they have laid their backs as the street for you , while in your wrath and fury you have passed over them . I. O. Thou sayest , pag. 216. That by this conceit of the Novelty of the Hebrew Punctation , the Adversaries Hope with Abimilecks Servants , to stop the the Wells , or Fountains , from whence ye should Draw your Souls Refreshments . Reply . Poor Souls , Poor Wells and Fountains , Poor Refreshments , if ye go down no deeper then the Letters to draw your Water ; for they are but the broken Cisterns which ye follow , & that with the totter'd Buckets of your own Brains , that hold not the water of Life : The Letter doth but declare of the fountain of living waters , which ye have forsaken , viz. God himself , Christ , and the Spirit , the fountain ( shut up and sealed to you yet indeed , Cant. 4. 12. but ) set open to the House of David , and the Inhabitants of Jerusalem , for sin and uncleannesse , Zach. 13. 1. The Well of Salvation , out of which they that inhabit Sion , in the midst of whom the holy One of Israel is now great , do with joy draw Water , out of whose bellyes flow Rivers of Living Waters , which 't is out of the Reach , and past the Strength of the Philistims to stop any longer , for there 's now Rehoboth , or room , yea , the Water thence given , whilst your Euphrates is drying up , is as a Well of Water springing up in them to eternal Life . I.O. That give this liberty to the audacious Curiosity of men priding themselves in their Critical Abilities , and we shall quickly find out what woful state and condition the Truth of the Scripture will be brought unto ; and if hundreds of words were ( as 't is said by Capellins ) the Critical Conjectures of the Jewes , what security have we of the Mind of God , as truly represented to us ? seeing that its supposed , that some of the Words in the Margent were sometimes in the Line ; and if it he supposed as 't is , that there are innumerabl● other Places of the like nature standing in need of amendments , what a door would be opened unto curious Pragratical Wits to overturn all the certainty of the Truth of the Scripture , every one may see , pag. 308. Reply . Every one may see therefore what Certainty and Security ye are in while ye stand on no bottom but a broken Letter : And how wilt thou help the case with all thy prate , or hinder Pragmatical Wits from using their Critical Abilities that way ? Who shall ponere obicem , put a stop to them , and impose upon all others his Thoughts , that things are so or so ? Shall I.O. who in so many places Confesses he gives men but his Thoughts ? nay , doth nos I.O. Confesse , pag. 217 , 218. that none must give a Rule to the rest ? the door is open'd man , and thou canst not shut it , even an effectual door for the Sheep to enter the fold by , even him , who is the Light as well as the Door , opened , whereby to see into the uncertainty of your torter'd Transcripts , much more , ten fold more totterred and untrue Translations , much more , twenty fold more to and fro Expositions , so that though Truth is where it was before the Letter was among them that love it , and security and certainty no where but there , where it is only , and ever was and will be ( viz. ) in the Light , and Spirit , and among the livers there , but not among the Talkers of it , that are Livers and Walkers after the fl●sh . I O. Thou sayest , pag. 294. That let the Points be taken out of the way , and let men lay aside that advantage they have from them , and it will quickly appear what devious wayes all sorts of such Persons will run , scarce a Chapter or a Verse it may be , or a Word , nor a Line would be left free from Perplexing contradicting Conjectures , the words being altogether innumerable whose significations may be varied by an Arbitrary supplying of the Points ( for who shall give a Rule to the rest ? ) what end of fruitlesse Contests , what various and pernicious Senses to contend about ? yea , to expect Agreement is fond and foolish , and this gives but an humane fallible perswasion that the Readings fixt on by each is according to the mind of God : Besides , who shall secure us against the Luxurant Spirits of these dayes , who are bold on all advantages , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to break in upon every thing that 's Holy and Sacred , that they will not by their Huckstering utterly corrupt the Word of God ? ( i.e. ) Scripture : how easie is it to see the dangerous Consequents of contending for various Lections ? Reply . Is your Word of God possible to be utterly corrupted ? ours is not ; Is your Foundation , Rule , &c. so rotten , such a Nose of Wax ? how easie is it then to sore-see that it must melt afore the fire of the Spirit ? And of what dangerous Consequence is it for you to stand on no surer ground , then that which is so easie to be changed ? for does thy Perplexing Prate make it the lesse alterable , or free it from mens Perplexing contradicting Conjectures , while thou objects but thy Conjectures to theirs , none of which must Rule the roast , or be a Rule to the rest ? and doth your Interpretation , which is variable both Rerum and Verborum , were your Transcripts never so steady , give any more then meer fallible perswasion that your Readings and Sense , which is all the People have , is right ? Ah poor men , who labour in the fire , and weary your selves for very vanity in screel-scrawls about your Scripture , while by the Spirit the Earth is filling with the knowledge of Gods Glory , without such absolute necessity of the Letter , as the Waters cover the Sea. I. O. Thou sayest , pag. 211. That the Points are of importance to the right understanding of the Word of God. Reply . Ah poor People , as well as poor Priests too , if it be so , not one among a thousand of the one , nor one among twenty of the other , being capable to read Hebrew either with Pricks or without ; I trow , which way must these come to the understanding of Gods Word ? from the Rabbies mouths , or Gods own ? For my part I am far from believing such necessity of Points to understand Scripture by ( seeing 'tis , as to the Substantials of saving Truth , rendered pretty well into plain English , that poor ●eople that with honest hearts read it , may see how to be honest ) much more to understand the Word of God it self , which is not the Scripture , which yet I. O. intends by that term of the Word : But on that which is uttered in every heart from his own mouth , out of which Wisdom it self sayes , Prov. 2. there comes Knowledge , Wisdom , and Vnderstanding , there shall I wait with thousands more that are there waiting , and no● upon the Dreaming Doctors , while they divine out their meer Dreams , Thoughts , and Opinions about their Po●nts and Puncta●ions ; Besides , Riddle me this I.O. if thou canst , Whether the Scripture were never rightly read , nor understood by Holy men , that did read it in the Spirit without Points before Ezraes dayes ? from which only thou traducest thine own Orignal of the Points , which thou makest of such importance to a right understanding of the Scriptures . I.O. Thou sayest , pag. 252. That to be driven out of such a Rich Possession as the Hebrew Punctation upon meer Conjectures and Surmises , thou canst not willingly give way nor Consent . Reply Poor man ! Is that thy rich Possession , that so much benefit comes by as thou sayest , pag. 267 ? the chiefest Treasure the Church of God hath for many years enjoyed ? as thou sayest , pag. 163. the Inheritance which ( even every Tittle and Letter of which , as thou sayest , pag. 176. ) many Millions have looked on , as Theirs , with such high account , that for the whole Wor●d ●ther would not be deprived of it ? Do the Riches , the Ornaments , the Excellencies , the Enjoyments , which thou art so extraordinarily afraid to be Kobbed , Spoyled , Plundered , Driven out , Deprived of , that your Consolation seems so much to consist in , that who so does , not so much as totally bereave you of , or nullifie , but only under-value , so as barely to Novellifie and deny the Antiquity and Necessity thereof , does no lesse then utterly stop the very Wells and Fountains from whence ye should draw all your Souls refreshment , as thou sayest , pag. 216. Do they , I say , stand in such Counters and Pins , & Pins heads , & Points , & Point Tags , & Childish Toyes and Trash as these ? Indeed , when I was a Chi●d . I did as a Child , thought as a Child , spake as a Child , understood as a Child ; but when I became a Man , I put away these Childish things ; which yet University Doctors are very deeply doting on to this day : Like Boyes , that ly brawling about Bawbles , which they prize above , and will not part with for far more serious & precious matters ; blessing themselves more in a Bag of Cherry-stones , and fearing more to lose , & caring to keep them , then wise men do theirs , whose Riches lyes in that which can't be lost ; So doth I.O. busie himself with fear and much trembling about these perishing Points , Vowels , Accents , about his Cametz's and Patack's , Tsere's and Segols , Chiricks and Cholems , Sheva's and Sciurech's , Athnach's , Kibbutz's and Cametz Catuph's , hoping he is rich and encreased with Goods , and hath need of nothing while he enjoyes them , thinking within himself , — Populus me sibilet at mihi plaudo , Ipse domi simulac numinos contemplor in arcâ ; Not knowing , that for all this , being out of , and against the true Light , he is poor , and wretched , and miserable , and blind , and naked ; whose Poverty I pitty more , then I prize such uncertain Riches , of which I may say as the Poet ; Formidare malos fures , incendia , servos , Ne se compilent fugientes , hoc Iuvat ? Horum Semper Ego optârim pauterrimus esse bonorum . Howbeit I.O. Possession being eleven points of the twelve , that thou wilt not part with it willingly I cannot much blame thee , considering how 't is with thee upon thy Principles ; 't is a rich Possession indeed in one sense , as poor as 't is in another ; for by that , and your ( as costly , as cloudy ) Interpretations of the Letter , which thou sayest fails , if that be not upheld in an Antiquity as Antient as the Letter , ye have your Wealth , making a Trade out of it ; yea , your whole Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth , and yo●r Dominion , Dignity , Glory and Authority , and all ye are worth stands upon these ticklish Points , so that take them away , and ( in thy conceit at least ) ye know not whither ye sink , down ye drop , and must be fain to go a begging to the Quakers , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? Tell me where I shall stand ; Give us of your Oyl , for our Lamps are gone ●ut ; let your Light and Sun shine on us , for our Candle is gone out in obscure darknesse , we have wearied our selves in the greatnesse of our way , in the multitude o● our Thoughts , in the infinitenesse of our Imaginations , to hold up our Forms , and Professions , and Faith , and Christian Religion , and Righteousnesse , and Life , and all by the Letter , counting your Lives madnesse , and your End without honour , that talk of A Light within , but now we see 't is we were the fools , and blind , and the mad-men , and the poor and deluded ones , and deluders of each other , and of other People as well as our selves , who have hung all their Faith upon our Fancies about the Letter , upon ou● high Conceits about our Copies and Transcripts , which we deemed infallibly to be the infallible Word of God , when all Translations ( which is all they have , that know not G●eek and Hebrew , to trust to , unlesse they take our words ) are untrusty and untrue , and a Nose of Wax , which men have made to stand which way they pleased , and no stable , stedfast , firm Foundation ; And the Light of the true Righteousnesse hath not risen upon us . I. O. Thou sayest , pag 220. That thou canst not but tremble to think what would be the issue of this Supposition , that the Points , Vowels , and Accents , are no better guides unto you , then may be expected from those , who are pre●ended to be their Authors . Reply . I t●ought ye had not been Quakers , but against Trembling and Quaking , because ye jeer at it so in the Quakers , who professe and pretend to Trembling at nothing but at the Word of God it self ; but I see ye are Trembling at smaller Matters out of the sense of the losse of Toyes and Trifles ; now the day of Iacobs trouble & trembling begins to passe over , and he to be saved out of it , Trembling it seems begins to take hold on the House of Esau , who must assuredly come into it in his stead ; and that with a witnesse , and to some purpose , when they who yet stop the ear shall hear the Word of God , who is the Strength and Salvation of his People , roaring out of Zion , and as a Lyon uttering his voice from Ierusa●em to the shaking of the Heavens and the Earth , and not be able to flee out of the reach or sound of the terrible roaring thereof . 2. Do you expect such eminent guidance as ye here seem to do from these pidling Pricks and Points into the Kingdom of God , and Salvation , so that the Terrours of Hell take hold on you at the very time and thought of the losse of no more , then that meer imagined Antiquity and pretended divine original of them from mount Sinai , that some fillily ascribe unto them ? Suppose ye could prove them to be derived from Mount Sinai ( which is that , where there were Quakings , and Tremblings , & Blackness , and Darkness , and Tempest ) will they lead , guide , and conduct you from Condemnation to the safety , rest , refreshment , and consolations of them that are come to dwell on Mount Sion ? Ah miserably bem●ped men , and benighted Ministers ! It grieves me to see how poor People wait upon you for guidance , who are groaping up and down for the Wall your selves , like such as have no eyes , after such small Apices and Scintillula's , indiscernable , and incomprehensible Attomes as these , which are of such infinite variety , vanity , and uncertainty , that 't is as profitable , Capere muscas , to catch Flyes , and sit and peel strawes , as to spend time to find out either their Authors , or Differences , or Services , or Vses . For so verily are the Hebrew Accents , as uselesse as numberlesse in their Offices ; insomuch that the Learned Christian Ravis of Berlin , Professor of the Oriental Languages , doth in his Grammar not only utterly deny them ( as others do ) to be Coaevou● with the Consonants , or to be written by Moses , but also not to be so ill handled by the Authors , who ere they were , as to cast so many unnecessary , idle , unreasonable , superfluous , useless Fancies upon them , as our Doters on them do now a dayes . I Confesse ( quoth he ) we cannot set down the Time , Place , Method , Authors , & Crooked knots , punctually , which were never set down ; but 't is as old to have Bibles without Points , as with them . They are not the same in Hebrew , Samaritan , Chaldee , Syriack , Arabi● Aethiopick . The Graecians at first were content with a , e , o , for vowels . Persians , Turks , Tartars , Mogul great and little , and Malay , could be content to this day without Pricks instead of vowels . What think you then ( quoth he ) was there a Curse of God upon the Jewes and all the Prophets , that they nor could nor would understand the Writings one of another , without so many superfluities ? And what a Malediction will you cast ( quoth he ) upon Gods Word , that when many Hundreds can understand ( and that without any Haesitation at all ) thousands of other Books without these P●icks , they should not be able to understand Gods Book , without such ado ? If that Infinity of Pricking and Stroking every Line and Letter , were in the Bible , were it not the greatest injury that could be done to it , to have it once Printed without them ? How would the JEWES dare to Offer such Sacriledge so Vnexpressible ? Must the JEWES find out an easier way then GOD himself , to leave out Pricks ? What an absurdity is in all the Accents , not one excepted ? Athnack stands in an hundred places as a Boy or Servant ? Truly I pitty ( quoth he ) all those Great Men that are become Boyes and Children , playing thus for the Vowels , Accents , and Diacritical Notes , that they Write whole Books about Fancies and Childish-stuff , given over to Reprobate minds , and without the B●essing of God. The Pricks added to the Consonants are various , according to the Fancies of the Inventors in various Countries of the Orient ; in Hebrew , Chaldee , Arabick and Aethiopick are there naturally none , because superfluous . The Strokes and Pricks are not of the Essence of this Tongue , therefore only in the Bible , and are set to the Bible without necessity . Only I wish'd that the Vowels and Sheva's ( quoth he ) had no greater Credit then the Accents have , which by the most learned in Europe for almost 150 years , were still left out , and not cared for , even by them that Translated the Hebrew Bible ; nor can I well blame them , as if they had mightily mistaken in the Translation , because of the ignorance of these Accents , as if only by their Order the true Connexion and Distinction of Senses could be had . Therefore let no English Man ( quoth he ) think he hath not learned the Hebrew Tongue * if he know not these Accents , and the infinity of work in them , but rather with me pitty the pains of those painful Germans and Scots upon such rotten Principles , and learn hereafter of them , to labour upon a sure ground , or to think that God hath laid a Curse upon his labour , Sysiphi Saxum , a stone that will give him an endlesse and unprofitable Work ; and I wish this painful man , and Buxtorf , and all those that are so busie about the Pricks ( and will not believe that excellently and exceedingly learned Author Capellus , French Professor at Lamar in his Arcanum Punctorum Revelatum , Printed in the Oriental Printing-house , his own at Leyden , 1625. ) that they may bestow their pains upon ●etter work then about these Trifl●s of the Points , and the Samaritick Letters , if they or those wherewith the Bible is now Printed be the true old Hebrew Character , when as both are of the same Essence , and one no more true then the other ; all that can be said for Accents , is that one Accent may do the businesse ▪ lifting up the syllable where it is : They are unreasonably , and without sense , called Grammatical and Rhetorical , for Rhetorick speaks not of Accents . And much more from pag. 172. to pag. 174. Alas poor Souls , have ye no better Guides then Points , Vowels , Accents , no marvel ye have been no better then blind Guides to the Blind , who are no better guided your selves into the whole sacred Truth , and secret Councel of God , then by such dimunitive twinckling sparks as these , that ye have kindled , and compast your selves about with , and walk by the Light of , which are so far from rendering other things discernable , that ye cannot yet distinctly discern either what or where they are your selves . Do ye expe& infallible direction from such a Will-with-a-wisp , or Walking Fire , that leads you into such Brakes of Contention , and Bogs of Vncertainty , that ye are fain to Confesse ye know not well where ye are , but in a Wood , in a way and businesse wherein all things are carried to and fro by utter uncerta●n Conjectures , pag. 330. while ●e are beating your selves about after it , and beating one another about it ? I tremble to think what will become of you indeed , and what will be the issue of this Supposition , that Letters , and Tittles , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that ye are tattling endlesly about , and Points , and Vowels , and Accents , and such Accidental Attomes , as are not Essential to the Text , much lesse pertaining de esse to the holy Truth , should be for Guides . But , in general , this I know , that till ye come to the infallible Spirit and Light within that leads ( if your Letter lye not ) into all Truth such as follow it , whether they be such as have skill in your Points Vowels , and Accents , yea or no ; ye may walk on in the Light of your own fire , and the sparks that ye have kindled ; but this you must expect at last from the Lords own hand to lye down in shaking , shame , and sorrow . One thing more I.O. and more remarkable then the rest of thy confused and pedling Work about these Points , is the flat Contradicton that thou givest to thy self herein , as well as often in many more Points , and that thy own sayings concerning them in some places give to what thou utterest of them in some other , which I shall here set before thee and the World , as it lyes in thy own words , that thou mayst see how rawly thou runnest forth in hast to render thy self ridiculous to all men by thy indigested doings , in which thou art justly left of the Lord , to run in rounds , for thy malitious medlings against his people . Pag 217. Speaking against the asserted Novelty of the Hebrew Points , Vowels , and Accents , thou writest thus , J. O. I shall manifest it is fit they should be all taken out of the way , if they have the Original assigned to them by the Prolegomena . Reply . Yet two Leaves after ( viz. ) pag. 221. ( to go round again ) thou writest thus , Grant the Points to have the Original pretended , yet they deserve all Regard and are of singular use for the understanding of the Scripture , so that it is not lawful to depart from them without urgent necessity . And yet ( to go round again ) pag 244 : thou writest Semi-diametrically Oppositive , thu●f I must crave liberty to professe , That if I could be throwly convinced that the present Punctation were the Figment and Invention of these men , I should labour to the utmost , to have it utterly taken away out of the Bible , n●r should I in its present station make use of it any more : To have it placed in the Bible , as so great a part of ( Secundum Te ) the Word of God , is not tolerable . Here 's a pretty Triangular piece of Work , two Corners of which , square a squint with the third , in which I.O. dances the Hay , up and down , in and out by himself alone , like Three Kites , in the Clouds of Confusion . CHAP. V. AS to the matter of the Scripture remaining entire to a Tittle in the outward Text of it as at first given out , what a fidling and pidling makest thou to prove and make it good ? what Figures dost thou cast in thy Fancy throw that part of thy Second Treatise , wherein thou treatest for it , for the defending of it , and to fence off that fault of falshood from falling upon that thy Arch-Assertion , having once over-shot thy self-so far , as in thy First Treatise , as false as frequently to affirm it ; and yet when all 's done , after thy tedious Tracings to and fro in thy wonted Wood of uncertain Talk , Conjectural Discourse , and in the toylsome Thicker of thy own untrusty Thinking ? , thou art fain to Confesse enough to the Confutation of thy self , and the Contradicting of That thy Position in the strictnesse thereof , wherein thou tooth and nail Contendest for it , as no lesse then a very Fundamental part of That Faith , which was once delivered to the Saints . But that I may not seem to wrong thee by Representing thy Arch-Assertion in a stricter way , or by stretching or extending it , in my Animadversions on it , beyond the exact measure of thy insert and meaning in it ( unless thou wil● have us to judge thee one that speakest one thing , and meanest another [ as T.D. sayes God do● ] which is as bad ) let the Reader , together with my returns therto , take it in thy own terms , as it lies spread and sprinkled up & down in sundry Expressions , sounding out ( in sum ) the same thing , as to thy purport in them , over many parts , and in many particular pages of thy Two English Tractacles . I.O. Pag. 14. The whole Word of God ( that is , Secundum Te still , the Scripture , Text , or Writing of it ) in every Letter and Tittle , as given from him by Inspiration , is preserved without Corruption ( i.e. ) variety from the first Original Manuscripts in the Copies we have . Pag. 137. The whole Script●re entire , as given out from God , without any losse , is preserved in the Copies of the Originals , in ●h●m all , we say , is every Letter and Tittle . Pag. 10. T●e Word ( i.e. ) Scripture with thee still ( for thou denyest the words coming any other-way to your selves , or any now ) is come forth unto us from God , without the least mixture , or intervenience of any medium . obnoxious to fallibility , as is the Wisdom , Truth , Integrity , Knowledge , and Memory of the best of all men . Pag. 13. We have not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Mo ? es , and the Prophets , the Apostles and Evangelists , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we have , or Co●i●s contain every Iota that was in them . Hebrae● Volumina nec in unica dictione , corrupta intenies . S. Pag. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Matth. 5. 18. To which Answers that , Pag. 316 , 317. Doth not our Saviour affirm of the Word that was among the Jewes ( i.e. ) Scripture ( Secundum te still ) That not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it should passe away or perish , where let the Consonants themselves , with their Apices , be intended , or alluded to in that expression , &c. And Epist pag. 27. None are able to shew out of any Copies yet extant in the World , and that they can make appear ever to have been extant , that ever there were any such various Lections in the Old Testament . And pag. 319. Neither the Care o● God over his Truth , nor the Fidelity of the Judaical Church , will permit us to entertain the least suspition , that there was ever in the world any Copy of the Bible differing , in t●e least , from that we enjoy , or that those we have are corrupted . And pag. 317. Let the Authors of this Insinuation , prove that there ever was in the World , any Copy of the Bible Differing in any one word from those that we now enjoy , let them produce one Testimony , ne Author of C ? ed● J●w or Christian , that can , or doth , or ever did , speak one word to this purp●se , let them direct us to any Relick , any Monument , any kind of Remembrance of them , and it shall b of we●ght to us , &c. Many more exceeding and extraordinary , high , strict streins thou deliverest thyself in , in other places about the non-corruption , non alteration of the Text of Scripture in one Letter , Tittle , Iota , or Syllable since the first giving it out , so , but that in the Copies extant to this day , there 's an exact Unity , and entire Identity with the first Originals ; a kind of Summary , Collection , and C●pitulation of which thou makest , pag. 153. speaking to this purpose thus , viz. I O. The Sum of what I am Pleading for , as to the particular Head to be vindicated , is , That as the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were immediately and entirely given out by God himself , his Mind being in them represented unto us without the least interveniency of such mediums , and wayes as were capable of giving Change or Alteration to the least Iota or Syllable ; So by his good and merciful Providential Dispensation in his love to his Word and Church , his whole Word ( alias , the Scripture with thee ) as at first given out by him , is preserved unto us entire in the Original Languages ; where shining in its own beauty and lustre ( as also in all Translations , as far as they faithfully represent the Originals ) it manifests and evidences unto the Consciences of men without other forreign help or Assistance , its divine Original , and Authority . Reply . This is the Capital , Cardinal , General Assertion , or Position , which branches it sel● into several Particulars , or petty Propositions , viz. The immediate coming forth of the Scripture from God to us ; its self evidencing power to evince it self , by it self alone , to be of God , and his Word ; it s descending to us at this day entire to a Tittle without corruption by alteration in the least Letter , Iota , Vowel , Point , or Syllable ; its uncapablenesse of such Change and Alteration in its coming to us ( so are thy words here and pag. 10. ) to the least Iota , or Syllable . Unto which General Head , and its branches , the Ramu●culi , lesser twigs , or little Sentences scattered here and there throwout thy Book , are Reducible , and each to its own suitable Branch respectively . That which I am here under Consideration of thy pi●tiful Plea for , is both its non-Alteration ( de facto ) as it s handed down by Transcribers from the fi●st Scribes of it to us in these dayes , and its Unalterablenesse , or Uncapablenesse of Alteration ( which ( if thou mean as thou sayest ) thou here Assertest ) to the least Iota or Syllable . These are to thee ( as thou sayest ) such important Truths , that thou shalt not be blamed in the least by thy own Spirit , nor , thou hopest , by any others , in contending for them , judging them Fundamental parts of the Faith once ( but ( say I ) thou knowest not when ) delivered to the Saints . Reply . Though I , who cannot hold thee , because I cannot find thee guiltlesse , in either thy hasty holding , or thy heedlesse , unhandy handling thy weak vindicatory piece of Probation of them at so high a rate , do advise thee to praise a fair day at night , assuring thee , that if ever thou come to learn the Truth in the plainnesse and power of it , as it is in Iesus the Light , of whom the Letter testifies , thou wilt find these no Fundamental parts of that One Faith , which Paul and Iude speak of , Eph. 4. Iude 3 ▪ which was One even of old from Abraham , Enoch , Noah , and downwards from the beginning , before the Letter was delivered to , and earnestly to be contended for by the Saints ; and wilt find thy own Spirit also , however it now seems not to blame thee in the least , blaming thee nor a little for thy ignorance in due time ; and howbeit ( being bolstered up for a while above it , by the Aery Academical Applauses , Gratulatory Euge's , J O's . Hic est's , and such like blessings of thy blind Brother literatists , that are ( as the rich mans wealth to him , Prov. 10.15 . ) thy strong City , thy Murus Abaeneus , a high Brazen Wall to thee in thy own conceit ) thou feel'st no Check , and seemest Nil Conscire tibi , nullâ Pallescere Cultâ . Yet let others , and thy own heart also Clear , Chear and Cheat thee as it will , thou wilt once know , that as to every work there is a time to do it in , and a Judgment after it ; so thy whole , lame , Anti-Scriptural work about the Scriptures , as well as thy other part of it against the Quakers , though fenced in the Frontispice with the fair formal pretence of , A Vindication of the Purity and Integrity of the Hebrew and Greek Texts ; and , Pro Scripturis , and such like , must come to another account then that I am here taking of it before the world , even to a Judgment from God within thy own now blinded Bosome , and closed Conscience , as the Book thereof comes to be opened by the shining out of that Light in it , that lyes yet smoothered ; and then thy misery will be so great upon thee , that ( as I told thee above ) what thou sayest of the Pope for his misuse of Scripture , will be verified not on him only , in so much the greater measure , by how much his Vilislations and Violations of it may be greater then thine , but in some measure also upon thy self ; so that as thou , together with me , sayst Papae , so say I , Et Tibi Tempus erit quo magno optaveris Emptam , Scripturam intactam . It will once repent thee not a little in thy own Spirit , that ever thou appearedst in publick in such a proud and peevish Prate against its purest Friends so pretensively only , but not properly for , and so piteously and unpolishedly about the Scriptures . Now as to thy Vindication or Plea it self , for the present Integrity , and Indentity of the Text of your Copies , with those Original Copies that were first given out , which thou positively hadst before Asserted , thou failest and fallest short , so in thy Confidence of what thou hadst so peremptorily propounded for Truth , in ipso limine , at the very threshold and entrance thereinto , as to stile it no other then an Account of thy Apprehensions , a delivery of thy Thoughts , and a runing the Hazard of giving out thy Thoughts , and of what thy own Thoughts suggested to thee , pag. 146 , 147 , 149. 163 and a discovery of thy Thoughts , 151. As also thy First Treatise , wherein thou talkst of the samenesse of the Letter in every Tittle and Iota to what it was at first so Authoritatively , so Positively , so Impositively , so seemingly Infallibly and Uncontroulably ; a publication of thy Thoughts ( Though I had thought a Minister of Christ , or Doctor in that thing cal'd Divinity , especially about the Foundation of all his Faith , and in that Chapter where he layes the Basis of his Businesse , and of h●s building , should have b● thought himself better before-hand and have sa●e down and counted his cost , and cast it in his mind before he Printed his Propositions out in such peremptory terms , as thou dost in this case of non-Alteration of one jot or Tittle of the first divinely inspired Scripture , pag. 13 , 14 , 28 whether it would hold it out in such a height for certain or no , without parching it up with [ So I think ] and such loose Conjectures , and Imagina●ions , as are attended with such great uncertainty , that himself confesses ( as thou dost , pag. 297. ) They ought not to be admitted to any Plea or Place , one way or other , in so w●ighty a cause ; and Propound things that are false , as boldly , as undoubted Truths , and then pu●s off such as expect hi● p●oof , with weak Conjectures , and his Conceits ; ●e●t men mock him saying , This man began to build , but was not able to finish . Yet now I bethink my self , thou pretendest to be no divinely Inspired Prophet , nor one that owns any such to be now a dayes , but one of those Other men thou speakest of . pag. 9. The Pigment and Imagination of whose hearts are the fountain of all that they speak , and so no better can be expected from them . 2. Thou grantest that ye have not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. 13 Nay . It is granted ( sayest thou , pag. 163. ) that the Individual 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Moses , the Prophets , and the Apostles are in all probability , and as to all that we know utterly perished and lost out of the world ; As also the Copies of Ezra , the Reports mentioned by some to the contrary are open fictions ; The individual Ink and Parchment , the Ro●es or Books that they wrote , could not without a Miracle have been preserved from mouldring into Dust before this time ; Nor doth it seem improbable that God was willing by their losse , to Reduce us to a neerer Consideration of his Care and Providence in the Preservation of every Tittle contained in them ; Had those individual Writings been preserved , men would have been ready to adore them , as the Jewes do their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in their Synagogues . Reply . How like a Child dost thou talk in that groundlesse guesse of thine that God was willing to let the losse of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be , for such an end , as in thy foolish vain mind thou imaginest and fondly fanciest ! What a bawbling and blerting dost thou make of thy boyish bolts out of the Cross bow of thy crooked Conceit , both here and else-where up and down thy Book ? Who told thee that trifling Tale , which thou tellest for probable Truth , that God let all the first Writings be lost for this end , to reduce men in the latter Ages to a neerer Consideration of his Care in Preserving every Tittle till now that was contained in them ? When yet we know ( as I told thee above ) and prove by and from that little of the first Scripture that hath happened to come to our hands ( which ten parts to one of the World never saw neither ) that not Tittles only , but many whole Books of the first divinely inspired Scripture , that belonged to the Bulk of Holy mens Writings by the Spirit , are not preserved , but perished , for ought thou knowest , both the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of them also : Did God himself tell thee this to tell for Tsruth , or did the Serpent suggest it to thy Thoughts , that suggests a legion more o● the like lying vanities ? Even he surely insinuated this into thy Imagination , that crowded those other crude Conceptions and Conjectures , which thou hast , and holdest out to such Tom of Bediams , as will take them for Truth from thee . So in pag. 12 , 14 , 34. where perking up into Gods privy Councel , as if thou wer't one that fate in his Bosom from which thou art yet as far ( being from the Light ) as the Rich G●utton was from Abrahams , where poor Lazarus sa●e , whom he dispised ( saving that the gulf was fix't against his passage , whereas there 's hope concerning thy coming thither , if yet in time thou tern and take hold on Truth ) and intruding thy se●f into what thou hast not seen , vainly puf● up in thy fleshly mind , thou proudly falst a Pratin● 〈◊〉 Propounding , for Truth , what swims and floats in the Cock-boat of thy Fancy , ( viz ) pag. ●2 . That the Writing was the product of Gods Eternal Councel for the preservation of the Doctrine after a sufficient discovery of the Insuffiency of all other means for that end and purpose . Reply . Into which piece of Gods Eternal Councel , I trow who , or what Spirit , or Scripture , or Key of any kind , did ever let in I. O. who Proposes it so peremptorily in his Preachings ; as if God had discovered something by experience , after a while , that he was not so well acquainted with before , namely , that manifesting his mind by Dreams , Visions , Voices , Word of Mouth , was , after his tryal thereof , sufficiently ●ound by the Lord to be an insufficient means to save his Word from loosing , which means he intended once to that end and purpose ( howbeit sometimes again I O tells us ( truly enough ) that what ever means God appoints to any end , it is sufficient thereunto , and thereupon not imperfect , but perfect * ) and so fearing , belike , to loose his Word and Doctrine , and not knowing any other way ( all others failing save that of Pen and Inke ) in his Providence , betook himself to that way of Writing , which Providence also saw it self concerned to this day , to preserve entire Copies to a Tittle of all that Writing ( much of which yet is lost ) both to reduce men to a Consideration of it self , in that one particular ; and also that his Word ( not a jot of which , I confesse , can ever fail , though all Writing in the World come to perish ) might be secured for ever from perishing , and altering , by that most alterable and perishing way of Writing ; which , if it should happen to be all lost , he had no way to save his Word , Doctrine , and sacred Truth from dying irrecoverably , by a very dreadful and mortal Distemper , pag. 314. So seems I.O. summarily to say out of the sacred Secret of Gods Councel , which was never with any , save such as fear him more then I. O. does , whose Position of it Credat Apella . So Pag. 14. God by his Providence , preserving the whole Text entire , suffers lesser variety to fall out in or among the Copies we have , for the quickning and exercising our diligence in our search into his Word . Reply . O nescio quo horrendo percusse Sentomate ! Whence came this whiffe and whimzy within the Circumference of thy Figmentitious Fancy ? Who told thee this Toy , which thou preachest out for positive Truth ? Dost thou teach this for a true Doctrine of Christ , if so , from what Text ? Or wilt thou own it to be but a meer Tale of thy own , a Tradition of I.O. which it thou wilt , then own it , that in vain thou worshippest God , while thou art Teaching for Doctrine thy own Thoughts , and the Traditions of thy self , or any other men ; Thou talkest sometime at such a rate as if thou wouldst make all the World believe the variety of our Copies were absolutely none at all , no not in the leaft , not in one Apex , Tittle , Iota , not in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which , how contradictory it is to , or consistent with that lesser variety here talk'd on , who is so silly ( save I. O. whos 's own silliness and self . Confoundings are never seen by himself ) as not to see ? But to let passe that ordinary matter of self-contradiction ( sifh it s as Common with thee almost as to Talk at all ) and to take it as it falls . Is this the end why God , who ( as thou sayest , who knowest not whether thou hast the half or no of what was by Inspiration written ) preserved the whole entire , suffered that variety that is in your Copies , to quicken your diligence in your Search into his Word ? If that be the end ( as indeed it may well enough be , of the total losse of so much of the Letter as there is , and non-Integrity , nor Indentity of your Transcript Texts that remain ) that ye should diligently search into his Word , it were happy for you that there 's so much variety and uncertainty as there is in your Copies , and nere the worse , had you none of them at all , so ye would betake your selves to the Hearing of the Word of God , and the receiving it more immediately and purely from his mouth , which the Letter of it tells you is nigh in your own hearts and mouths , ●o that ye need not go any where ad extra for it , that ye may both hear and do it : But alas poor men , by the Word ye mean the Letter still , the External Text , or Writing of it , and then so far is your so diligent searching and poring , and striving , and scribling one to another ( as the Scribes of old did , Iob. 5. that never heard the Voice and Word of God it self ) from being any end of God at all in giving it out at first , or in deriving that part of the Scripture , ye have , down to you , whether fully the same with , or falsified from the first Copies , that he loaths and detests your long Tales about its Tittles , and your idle Treating away your pretious time in such Trivial talk as this , That the whole Word of God , and all saving Doctrine , and sacred Truth is lost , and fails for ever without ▪ Relief , Remedy , or Recovery , if every Tittle of the Text without losse or variation be not upheld and preserved Entire to this day : which yet is some ( not to say the sum ) of that unsound Doctrine , the proof of which is driven on by thee I. O. As in pag. 18. 314. and many other Pages is to be seen throwout thy Book , as well as by other Doctors and Divines . So Pag 34. speaking of the Scriptures uncontroulably manifesting themselve so to be , that on pain of eternal Damnation , men are to receive them as the Word of God , thou sayst that they afford unto us all the divine Evidence of themselves ( and that 's none at all , as I shall shew anon of their being his Word ) which God is willing to grant us , or can be granted us , or is any way needful for us . Reply . Another odd Conceited saying this is , as like thy self ( who ur●erest thy self Doctor-like still , as to thy usurped Authoritativenesse , but seldom as to the truth of thy Assertions ) as if it were spit out of thy mouth : Who told thee this Vntruth that thou so uncontrollably utterest here for truth , that God is not willing to grant more divine evidence of the Scriptures being what thou falsly sayest they are , or where they are indeed , and that more neither can or need be granted then what the Scriptures themselves do afford ? sayest thou this of thy self , or did others tell it thee of the Scripture ? of thy own head surely , or very likely at least , and neither from God nor the Spirit , nor the Scriptures , no nor the Synods , nor the Congregational Churches of England to which thou belongest , nor the Doctrinal Catechismes of late Divines ; for these thy brethren ( though erring with thee , in stiling them the Word ) tell thee of another ( not humane onely ) but Divine Testimony or evidence , that may be and is needful to be granted , and that God is willing to and doth also grant of the Scriptures being what they call it , beside that which thou here so absolutely assertest as the onely one that must or can be afforded , viz. the Testimony of the Spirit of God in the heart , and not that of the Scripture alone concerning itself , or of the holy Spirit speaking without us ad extra onely in the Scripture , which is the dream wherein thou drawest aside not onely from the truth , but also ( if it were a truth that the Letter is G●ds Word ) from the joynt Testimony of thy fellow Testifiers to it , for they say the Testimony of the Spirit within us also , & not 〈◊〉 ●●stimony without u● , and onely in the Scripture , divinely evidences the Scripture to be what ye all falsly say it is , that is , the Word of God : Witnesse not only that so much esteemed Divine in his dayes , viz. Ball in his Catechisme , but also the Confession of Faith of the Assembly of Divines presented to the Parliament , and that of the Congregationals , which is verbatim the same also therewith , who all unanimously in that Article of the Scripture , wherein they falsely affirm it to be the Word of God , declare thus in the fifth head , viz. by the heavenlinesse of the matter , efficacy of Doctrine , majesty of the stile , excellency and perfection of the whole , it doth abudantly evidence it self to be the Word of God , yet notwithstanding our full perswasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof [ i.e. ] of the Scripture , is from the inward work of the holy Spirit , bearing witnesse by and with the word in our hearts . But thou in page 90. and thorowout thy fifth chapter of thy first Treatise excludest the witnesse of the Spirit immediately in the heart at all , or at least the usefulnesse , much more the necessity of any such Testimony making as here page 34. the Authority of God shining in it self alone , and exclusively of the spirits and words witnesse in our hearts , the sole medium of all that evidence which man can have of its being ( what ye call it ) viz. The Word of God ; but as for God and the Spirit , who within do give all the evidence that they give at all of the Scriptures , being what in truth is is , viz a true writing of the truth , what if they are willing to grant an evidence within , and to afford more then thou talkst of ? wilt thou bind , limit and forbid them so to so , who 〈◊〉 unlimitedly here declarest that God is willing to afford and grant no more ? must not the Spirit blow where it lifts without thy leave , or acquainting thee , first , who art no Prophet , with what he will do ? And this may serve as a sufficient Answer to thy vain Opinion in it ( it being worth no better ) to that whole Chapter of thine concerning the Testimony of the Spirit ; though whether it shall or no , so that I 'le say no more to thee about that Chapter , is more then I le tell thee here , that I may be at liberty to do as I see occasion : Only thus much is spoken to that saying of thine , above pag. 34. to shew how Majestically still for the eternal Truths of God , thou tellest thy own meer trashy , untrusty Traditions ; of which sort , I say , is that above , p. 163 which I am yet in hand with ( viz. ) that God probably suffered the losse of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to reduce us to a Consideration of his Care in preserving every Tittle , that was in them , to this day in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Copies we have . But I O. seems to take another Reason out of the bottomlesse pit of his own infinite Fancy and Imagination , why God was as willing to let the first Manuscripts perish , as careful to preserve every Apex thereof , in their adored Transcripts , and successively Crowned and Canonized Copies to this day ( viz. ) left if the immediate individual Writings had been preserved , men would have been ready to adore them , as the Jewes to adore their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in their Synagogues . Reply Which if it be Cogent or have any Reason at all in it to prove a willingnesse in God to let the first Writings be left , hath it not as much to the full to evince God ; Regardlesnesse of your so copiously regarded Copies , upon ( if there were no other ) the very self-same Account , as he was so carelesse of the other ? But I. O. is so totally Talpified , that ( as Eagle-eyed as he is abroad to spie a hole in the Iewes Coat ) he can't see that Iewish Idolatry neerer home ? For if God , to prevent Adoration of that Brazen Serpent , and Idolized 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Scripture , was so regardlesse of it , as to permit it to perish and be brought to nothing , is there not as much reason why he should be as Carelesse of your remote , tottered Transcripts , and false Translations ye are so carkingly careful of , as to let what will become of them , notwithstanding your uncessant pining and whining , and whoring after them , and solicitous scoldings and tearings one of another so much about them ? For as much as though ye Confesse ye have but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet so it is , that ye Adore , and even Idolize them as much as ye would , or likely could the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 themselves , had you them to bustle and busie your minds about , and as much as the Iewes ( though ye advance them the Right way no more then they do theirs , as I have told you at large above ) do their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their Synagogues . Suppose ye had here the very Hand writings of Moses , and the old Prophets , and the individual Letters , and Stories that the Evangelists and Apostles pen'd with their own hands ; yea the very Two Tables of Stone , superscribed with Gods own finger ( which was a Figure and Type of that Hand-writing of his Law in the fleshly Tables of your hearts by his living Spirit , the Truth , and Anti-type , of which ye as little heed , as ye heedlesly over-value the other ) What could you Ministers of the Letter , and not the Spirit , and your Literal and Formal , more then Powerful and truly Spiritual Professours say or do more ( unlesse you would down on your Knees to them so soon as ever ye see them ) in way of outward Honour and Adoration thereof , then ye do to your falsified Transcripts , and your People to the more unspeakably false Translations , which they take for Truth , but by Tradition and meer implicite Faith from your selves ? Le ts Reason and Reckon with you here a little while about your Transcripts and Translations , which are all that are extant and enjoyed at this day ; the first by you that have skill in Hebrew and Greek ; the second by your Independent [ on God ] but ( on their Priests lips ) dependent People ; As for the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Memorandum ( Oh all People , by whom these presents shall ever happen to be read ) I. O. hath quite quitted the World of them , Confessing they are all utterly perished , and long since past away and lost ; So that 't is opon Fiction , or miracu●ous with him for any one to affirm , that there 's any one individual Role , Writing , or Book that was Pen'd by the Holy men , that in their several successive Ages , wrote the Scripture now alive , and not mouldred into dust : So that the World hath done with them , and they with us , so as never to come within our Ocular Inspection more , whereby to try whether our Doctors and Divines Adored Transcripts do to a little agree ( as I. O. absolutely affirms they do ) with the Touchstone , yea or nay , so as to believe our own eyes , or any otherwise then as I O. ( who first positively Asserts it ) doth after as improbly conclude it from what is suggested to his own Thoughts from Hear-say , and other mens Talk to and fro , and Tradition , and ( as he Confesses all along ) ● heap of Vncertainties , and Conjectures ; so that all the tumblings and tossings , snapings and snarlings of even the Protestant Divines about their Scriptmre , is but about their remote [ Transcribed , I cannot say well neither , for most Transcribed Copies too are out of the way since Printing came up , but ] Printed Copies of the Text , which are all not more lyable in any thing to be , then in many things they are already falsified , which since the Primitive Copies are concluded to be gone , and the infallible guidance of the Spirit , by I. O. T. D. and all Divines excluded out of the World also , though they tell us Translations must be Rectified by their Transcriptions , yet if they happen to be ( as an hundred to one they are , and none knows in how many ) in any things crooked or various from the first , there 's no means of Rectifying or Reducing their supposed Rule to Conformity to the first literal Rule , nor of amending it , any otherwise then uncertainly , for ever . But suppose , I say , ye had the Primitive Copies , could you make more ado in Adoring them , then ye Doctors , and your People that dote on you , do about your various respective Transcripts , and more various Translations out of them into sundry Tongues and Languages , which Translations yet are all in somethings not more several in their sorts , then the Tongues into wch they are translated , and divided into as many Senses , as the many men that Translated them thereinto ; which said numerous untrue Translations also are , as to the Letter [ if they look not to the Light within , and live not by that ] all that the poor blindly guided , mis-led , Priest-befoolled People , who ken not Hebrew and Greek [ many of whom can't read English neither ] have to trust to , whose Faith about the Scripture it self , which thou callst , pag. 155. the Foundation of that Faith and Obedience God requireth at their hands , and whose belief of the Truth or untruth of this or that Translation , is as much pin'd upon the Priests sleeve here in England still , as it is at Rome it self , in this and some other matters ; for there they Believe as their Church [ alias ] Clergy believes , and take things on Trust being not suffered , if they were able [ as here , though suffered , they are not able ] to try the Truth hereof , and by meer Tradition from their illiterate Purblind Priesthood ; and no otherwise do they here , as to their Tratsl●tions , then upon Tra●i●ion , ●rusting to the fidelity and to that infalible certaines of their supposed learned leaders the Ser●●es , then whom no men are more humpered in a heap 〈◊〉 uncertainties about the Scriptures What would ye do more to the very writing , that was inscribed with Gods own finger , if you had it , in way of homage then ye are doing to your respective doted on , derived copies ? Do you not dance about them as Israel about their Calf , saying these are thy Gods O England , that brought thee out of bondage to thy sin , ( to which yet they committing it they remain servants to this day , Iob. 8 ) and must save thee and lead thee into life , and are perfectly sufficient without the light and spirit within , the Quakers talk of , as that which the letter came from , and alone can do it , to instruct thee in the knowledge and worship of God , and thy obtaining of everlasting Redemption ? Do you not Canonize and crown them with the Titles of the only Perfect Rule , Foundation , Light , Witnesse , Living Word of God , the Lydius Lapis , Unaltered , Unalterable Standard , Touchstone immediately come forth from God to us , without the least interueniency of Wayes , or Mediums obnoxious to fallibility , or capable to giue Change to the least ●ota or Syllable ? Are not these as high Titles as ye could give to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if they were here ? Do you not say , and do this , and much more to your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? And the People to no more then their meer Translation ? Yea , do the Iewes say or do more in way of Adoration to their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their Synagogues , then beautifie , adore , guild , lift up in their hands , ex●al them with high Applauses , Hugge and Kisse them , as ye do when ye Swear upon a Book , and such like outward magnifyings and makings honourable of them , which is the utmost that I have seen them do in their Synagogues throw many Nations , without living that substantial Holy Life the letter calls for ? And do you do any lesse , as to outward Adoration , or any more , as to inward and real Observation , towards your Bibles ? Yea , do ye not all , as well the People that have no better then their uncertain , yet certainly untrue Translations from you , as so many of you of the Clergy , as can read the Copies of the Originals ( for many cannot read the Hebrew Text at all , and some the Greek as ●etle as that , as necessary as these Tongues were made a while since to the very esse , or being of Christs Ministers ) who have no better ●hen your uncertain Transcriptions , cry up your several Transcribed and Translated Copies respectively that best like you , and every one hugge his own at least , as most insallible , however crying down others as corrupted ▪ And how beit if any one of them were so , as none of them at all are , yet all of them can't be right , as each one faith that is , that he takes to● Are ye not all noysing it out as the Iewes at ●e●usa●em , and the Gentiles at Ephesus , Jer. 7. Act. 19. of their Respective broken Reeds the Temple and Diana , to which they trusted , Great is Diana The Temple of the Lord , The Word of God , The Word of God Inspired , The insallible Word o● God are these , The perfect Living , Li●e giving Soul saving Word , the very Power of G●d unto Salvation ? Are the Iewes more mad upon their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the● People are upon their untruly Translated , and you Divines upon your untruly Transcribed , and both on the more Kreanously yet Trans-printed Sculptures ? Talking and Treating up your Respective Texts into the Throne , where Christ the Light , and Living Word alone should sit , making little lesse of your Copies , then some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( or Cornu-Còpia ) Deo forsan quapiam melius ? For what are all the Ephesian like Glamours , eager Out-cryes , loud Noises of the people here for against the Quakers ? Are they not for the bare Bulk of that Book called the Bible , the out-side of which they are at great Care and Cost to Paint , and Guild , and Bind , and Beautifie , and Adorn , and Adore , while the Truth exhibited in the Writing or Text thereof lyes trampled under their feet ? Saying , the Ru●e , the Foundation , the infallible Standard , the Word of God , of no more then their ( by the self Con●essed in many things ) corrupted Translations ; counting the Quakers not fit to live in the Land , any otherwise then Out-law'd , because they can't own , nor hold their I●o in that height of honour as they do , . nor fall down and worship that golden corruptible Image , that they set up , though they honour the Truth that 's told in the Scripture , and submit to it as the euerlasting powerful Word of God ? What are thy high English Transcendant Treatises about , and thy exceeding ample Apologetical Latine Exercitations , and thy many Execrations , Anathcmaes thundred out , and Subpoenaes , pag 31.34 . 56. 59.60 . 81. sent abroad in those and sundry other Pages of thy Paper , Summoning and Requiring all men , as from God to the Subjection and Submission of Soul to the Scriptures , which is due only and alone to the Word of God , on peril , pain , and penalty of inexcusablnesse , in damnable unbelief , damnation , eternal damnation , eternal displeasure of God , eternal Ruine , &c. in case it be not own'd as so ? What are all thy excessiue Commendations , and direful Comminations , and Condemnations denounced by thee against all that Commend it not , so ignorantly as thy self , and thy many needlesle Negotiations , and pitiful Proofs , and Pragmatical Pratings , and prehemine●t Pleas for its Reception in Comparison with , and Opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of God , and Attendance and Submission to its Supream uncontroleable Authority , pag 57.58 upon the account of its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divine inspiration , as being the most perfect Rule , firm Foundation , staple Standard , infallibly true Tou●hstone , entirely in every Tittle to the least 〈◊〉 , the Word of the Great God , the Writing that comes immediatly from God to us ( who live to many 〈◊〉 , after the mouldring of the first Manuscripts of it ) without the le●st interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , or capable to give Change to the least sota or Syllable of it , pag 113. The Book which God wrote , or at least immediately indited , and commends men ( it thou could tell where ) to receive , as his , under the penalty of his eternal displeasure , which Book makes a sufficient discovery of it self to be his , pag ●20 . reveals and ●clares and professes it self from the beginning to the ending ( that no where , 〈◊〉 I shall shew anon ) to be unquestionably the Word of God , pag. 140. And avers it self in euery place ( and that every place with 7 0. himself is 1.0 place at all , if Ex. 1. Self 28 be true , as will be seen anon ) to be the Word of God , pag 117 the most glorious Light in the World above t'e Sun dearer to God then all the World besides , and scores more of wonderful strict strains of Talk in which thou stretchest the Text and letter beyond its liue , and screwest the Scripture within Diana's Shrine , till thou crack'st thy own Credit with uttering ten times more then thou art ever able to stand under the tryal of , or any wise man is to understand . 〈◊〉 what is all this Adoratory ado , thou makest , about ? Is it not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pag. 57. the Writing ? And what Writing ? Is it not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only , confessing that all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is long since lost ? And if thou should spend so much time as to Talk to this Age of that , as the Rule , Foundation , Touchstone , Standard that is not now standing but fallen , and that , as the inalterable incorruptible Word of God ( and yet whether the Decalogue of Gods own Writing were not as incorruptible as thy cobled Copies of it , let who will judge ) that is already altered , yea , corrupted wholly out of the World , thy folly would more fully shew it self ; Is it not ( if not the totte●ed Translations , which the people at least magniste , and make a God of , as much as thou of the other ) thy meer Perigraphy , or rather Typography that passes from under , not the Pens of careful , faithful , infallible Transcribers , but the Presses of carelesse , fallible , falsifying , faithlesse Printers , whose hands few Pamphlets passe without need of an after Errata sic Corrigas ? Thy meer Typographically correctible corruptible Copies of the Text , are the Common Theame of all thy Laudatory labours , and truthlesse Treatises , and Theses that are thrust out about them . As for all Translations ( that I may not wrong thee , but give thee thy due ) thou givest them their due , I confesse , in some measure , so as to slate them a little lower then either the true Word of God , or the first true immediate Manuscripts of it either . Yea , I must needs say that ( though by some EXPRESSIONS and DENOMINATIONS thereof , as namely that of the Word of God ( partly at least ) thou settest them above themselves ) yet thou pullest them down so far below thy Idolized meer imperfect Images of the frost Writings , that , to say the Truth , within a little thou as much disparagest the very best of them ( as they are commonly counted ) as beyond measure thou manifiest thy own , insomuch that well-nigh the whole Scene of Sections in thy last Chapter of thy Second Treatise seems to be set to drive on no other Design then a louder decrying of all Translations , then that of theirs , whom thou cryest out on , for decrying thy Transcriptions , or then thy own crying up of them ; Yea , thou dost not more strictly and absolutely avouch that untruth concerning the absolute unity of your Copies of the Original both with the first Originals , and among themselues without any discrepancy in the least , then in that Chapter principally , and partly elsewhere ( viz. ) pag. 15. thou avowest and purtest thy self to prove that vast variety that is in all Translations among themselves , and that deep discrepancy that is in them also from both the first Original Text and your Transcripts of it ; which variety , discrepancy and corruption yet , that is in them , thou art so far from covering from the view of the Vulgar , whose Souls Interest lies mainly in Translations ( they being not able to read the Original Text ) as their Soul [ sayst thou ] and bodily Interests also [ say I ] are concerned in your Transcription , that thou openly proclaimest it , that all may see it , as it were upon the house top ; and lest any should be startled at so strange a sight , as thou presentest them with in that Chapter , as that vast variety of Translations of the Text from the Originals of it , and each from other , and begin to question whether that be the incorruptible Word of God or no , which so many Corruptions could creep , and are crept into , thou art so shamelesse as to help an Old lame Dog ore a stile ( as the Proverb is ) so as to render these so many mis-representations of the literal sense and meaning of the Original Words , which the Translators moped into , till they have torn and twined the Waxen Nose of your naked Letter [ whereby ●e may see what a sixt and firm Foundation , true Touchstone , stable Standard , inalterable Rule , infallible Guide , incorruptible Word of God , ye have among you while you trust and stand to no other Word then your outward Letter , defying that within , in the heart , which the Quakers point you to ] into more then twice , if not twenty times twenty several shapes , as an eminent help ( Oh horrid ) to the manifesting of the mind of God unto men , witnesse thy own words , pag. 310● at thy very entrance into that thy Talk against Translations , which are these ; TO . To have it Represented to us at one view , the several Apprehensions and Iudgements of so many worthy and learned men as were the Authors of these , and of the various Translations upon the Original words of the Scripture , is a signal help and aduantage vnto men enquiring into the mind and will of God in his word . Reply . Was the like odd conceit ever heard of , or digested with the receipt of it for Truth , any where but among onr Academical Conjecturers , and Adorers of one anothers silly thoughts ? that not unity but variety in the Translations of the letter , occasioned by the various thoughts and opinions of men that Translated one , about the spirit , sense of the same words , should be signally helpful towards any thing , but the confused fightings that the world is filled with about their many senses and meanings on the letter , and that our Ministers fill the World with , as well about their divers Transcriptions , as different Translations , is much more then folly , and little lesse then madnesse to imagine . Ah poor common people , you of the Tongues , Nations and Kindreds of the earth , that understand neither the Language of your Academical Canaanites , nor yet the true language of the Land of Canaan , It pities me for you still to see how all things are carried in the clouds out of your sight , for , not standing in the counsel of God , the light in your own heart , nor asking counsel of God , but at your Stoical Students , Stocks and Stones , you know not the mind of Christ that way ; And as for your untrusty Turn-Coats that Talk of Truth to you for Tyth , but turn Truth out of doors , and turn all things up-side down , whose doings in that kind must be esteemed ere long as the Potters Clay , Isa. 29. As for these I say they dig deep to hide their Councel , not only from the Lord , who yet in his People sees them well enough , but from you also their own People who own them , so that all their works to you-ward are done in the dark , so that ye behold not what strange Transpositions , Transcriptions , and Translations of things there are among them ; and such as tell you plainly how they wrest the Scripture like a Nose of Wax , which way it may best serve their Interests , they hate , so that of those that have tumbled in the same belly , and sprang from same ( University ) Mothers womb and bowels , with them , whose breasts the suck at , Vel Duo . vel Nemo , my self , and very few more are escaped thence alone to tell you ; They make you believe that that is the Word of God in your Bibles , which is seen with your bodily eyes even the very Letters , Syllables , and every Tittle of Writing , which ye there see , which Writing we confesse testifies of that Word of God which gives the Life ; but alas , is the Word of God so flexible , alterable , that it can be changed ( which is indeed eternally the same ) into as many shapes and senses as there are men , setting their senses on work to Transcribe , Translate , and Expound it ? Nay , Friends , Gods Word is stable and permanent , and not a Tittle of that can be turned besides it self , by the Tattling Tongues , and pidling Pens of men , that for Money make it their whole lives businesse to Transcribe , Translate , Interpret , and give you their Thoughts upon this , and that , and 'tother Text , till throw the throng of their Thoughts , and the mists of their Meanings , and mis-representations , and mis-interpretations , ye can see little of that they have Translated for you out of ●heir uncertain Transcripts , which yet they make you believe are in stedfast Vnity with the Originals , and each other , though they Confesse your Translations ( to good use and purpose too , if you will believe them ) are all unspeakably differing both from the first Copies of Scripture , and each other also . As to the State and Condition of Translations , which it is I. O's . drift , to discover the Corruption of in Order to the upholding the Credit ( as to non-Corruption ) of his Transcriptions , he takes and gives a view of the chief of them as they lye in the Biblia Polyglotta . Of the Arabick he tells us , pag. 325. That should be gather Instances of the failings of this Translation open and grosse , and so proceed with the rest , be thinkes he might make a Volumne neer as big as that of the various Lections afforded in the aforesaid Bible . Of the Syriach , he sayes Pag. 327 That it was made , hfe knows neither when nor by whom , and that in sundry places it evidently follows another corrupt Translation , passed throw the hands of men ignorant and suspitious , against whose frauds and follies , by reason of the Paucity of Copies , we have no Relief . Reply . Observe by the way , how I. O. when he speaks derogatively of Translations , he vilifies Translators as full of fraud , folly , ignorance , suspitious as if they were untrusty , and not fit to be heeded , as if they were full of Oscitancy and Negligence , occasioning miscarriages and mistakes in their Translatings , as if they were such as had nothing to do with God , but with Heathen Authors in Transcribings ; but when he speaks . Arrogatively of Transcriptions then pag. 168 , 169 , 171. the Transcribers , considering that what they Transcribed was , every Tittle and Iota of it , the Word of the great God , wherein the Eternal Concernment of their own , and others Souls did lye , and knowing they had to do with the Living God ( belike the Translators considered , and knew no such thing , that the Work under their Hands , was of the same concernment to souls ) shall we think that men in transcribing Tully , Homer , Aristotle , would be as careful as they ? we think it not tolerable in a Christian to argue so ; we scarce think the Roman Pontifices going solemnly to transcribe the Sybils verses , would do it either negligently or treacherously , or alter one Tittle from what they found written , and shall we entertain such thoughts of them , who knew they had to do with the living God , and that in and about that which is dearer to him then all the World besides ? why then dost thou entertain such course thoughts of Translations J.O. ? had not they to do with God in the same , that was ( as thou cloudily conceivest , for though the word is , yet the latter is not so ) dearer to him then the whole world ? yea and sometimes when thou talkest of corrupt novel Transcripts , thou hast the same ill thoughts of Transcribers , and accusest them , when their Copies are quoted against thee , to prove various lections , for malicious depraving , as much as thou excusest them at other times : yea thou canst not think the Romane Pontifices would mistranscribe Sybils Prophecies in one Tittle negligently or Treacherously ; yet dost entertain such thoughts of them about the Scripture , in which , who hath to do , hath to do with the living God , whether in Transcribing , Translating , or Interpreting , and inveighest against them , as betraying , falsifying , vitiating , interpolating , altering , adding , detracting , and what not ? to the corrupting of the Scripture . Ep. p. 13. Oh the pure ●rounds that I. O. runs ' in ! Of the Samaritane Pentateuch he sayes the places instanced in by Morinus do prove it corrupt , p. 329. of the Chaldee Paraphrase he sayes p. 334. That seeing it did not lye under any peculiar care , and merciful prouidence of God , whether innumerable faults and errours , as it happened with the Septuagint , may not be got into it , who can tell ( Saith I. O. himself ) and ( say I ) who can tell that this or that Transcription lay more under the peculiar care , and merciful providence of God , which I. O. so much insists on , then this or that Translation ? yet I. O. will be telling out his thoughts still for absolute truths . Of the vulgar Latine , that its of an uncertain Originall , its Corruptions , and Barbarisms , its abuse so much hath been spoken of , and by so many already , that it were to no purpose to repeat it , p. 33● . Of the 70. that all things about it are uncertain , and nothing almost manifest concerning it , but that it is wofully corrupt . p. 335 : and p. 15 : that Translation i. e. the 70. either from the mistakes of its first Authors , or the carelesnesse , or ignorance , or worse , of the Transcribes , ( mark how here I. O. shrewdly suspects Transcribers of carelesnesse , or Gods carelesnesse over them , whom at other times he says shall we think they were Oscitant or negligent , lying under a merciful aspect , and providence of God ) is corrupted , or gone off from the Original in a thousand places twice told , and that its a corrupt stream , a Lesbian Rule . On the account of which , and some others , no whit better , or scarce so good , are exhibited ; 1820. various lections , with insinuation of an infinite number more , and p. 339. if the ability of the Authors be urged . and granted , an unlikely to erre so much , what security ( quoth I. O. ) have we of their principles and honesty ? I say as much as we have of either the ability principles and honesty of thy ( so implicitly trusted to ) Transcribers ; what warrant more hast thou to hold all Transcribers more trusty then these , that were , for ought is kuown , the first , and the most emine●t Translators in the world , insomuch that whether translated or mistranslated , m●st Priests do●e more on it then on your Hebrew Copies : yet thou citest Cardinal Ximineus ( whereby we see Popish Authors , when siding with you , are cited by you as Authentick as others ) as●erring of this so much adored , and even Idolized Translation , that it is sometimes Supersluous , and sometimes Wanting , p. 340. and Cardinal Bel●armine † also whom thou citest , and creditest , that it is as a corrupt Translation out of the Text , so it felt corrupt and vitrated . and p. 341. eiting Hierom , as so saying , thou sayest it is corrupt , interpolated , mingled , and that there were so many copies of it , and they so varying , that no man knowes what to follow : and if a Translation may so be , why the Original it self may no so be by many various Copies , he must be a wiser man than I that knows , of the AE●biopian and Persian Translations , of the New Testament , he sayes p. 342. that he supposes it may sately be said , they are the worst , and most corrupt that are extant in the world ; and of the AE●biopian he saith , p. 243 it is no whit better , but a novell endeavour of an illiterate person , and of all in grosse , he sayes thus in the same page , that would be make it his businesse to give instances of the mistakes , ignorance , falsifications , errours , and corruption of these Translators , who ere they were , Iews or Christians , his discourse would swell into a Volume ; And lastly p 174. also thou , without exception of any , depr●ssett all Translations , which is all the people have so far below Transcriptions which ye Linguists have , as to say thus of them viz. Translations , con●ain the word of God , and are the wo●d of God , perfectly or imperfectly , according as they expresse the sense and meaning of those Originals , and of the Transcriptions ye Linguists have : to advance any , all Translations as concurring into an Equality with the Original , So to set them by it , as to set them up with it on even Terms , is to set up an Altar of our own by the Altar of God , and to make Equal the Wisdome , Skill , and Diligence of Men , with the Wisdom , Care , and Providence of God himself . So saith D. Featly p. 2. of his Dipters d●pt , the Bible translated is not the undoubted word of God But so far onely as it agreeth with the Original which ( as I am informed , ) none of you understand , quoth he to Wil. Kiffis , and the other Russet Rabbies he disputed with . Reply . First then observe , that by your own confession , all that poor people have , which is bare Translation is but an Altar of your own setting up , among them , & not Gods Altar , for thou callest Transcription the Altar of God , or the Issue of the Wisdom , Care , and Providence of God himself ; but Translation , an Altar of your own , the Issue of the Wisdom , Providence and Diligence of man onely , that must not be reckoned on as Gods Word , nor stand in equall esteem with the Scriptures ye Scribes enjoy . Alas poor people , you and yours must be thrust out still , ( as Christ was ) into the manger , for whom there was no room in the Inne , ye must be content with shame , to keep at your distance from your Doctors , and Lordly Scholars , and to take the lowest room ; they must have a dominion over you and your faith too , and you must never fare and feed so high as them , but in the stable as Rusticks , or but Russet Rabbies among the Bruits , and be glad to snap at a crust , and be fed at their dispose from their pens , and mouths with a bit , and a bite , if you put not into their mouths , and pay not you shot well too for that short Commons , and poor pasture ye have from them : those Scriptures they or some one of many among them can read in Greek and Hebrew , are ( quoth I. O. ) entirely to a Tittle preserved without losse ; ( though but remote Transcriptions by fallible men ) answerable to the first immediate manuscripts , that were written by inspiration from God , the Word of God perfectly , duly advanced into an Equality and even terms ( for I remember not where in all his Book he puts the Transcripts , though I know , and he acknowledgeth , that in some things there are varieties among them too , below the first manuscripts ) with that given out at first , every Apex of which † is equally divine , and ( if a man be to be beleeved when he speaks falsly , or foolishly , for want of fear or wit ) as immediately from God as the voice , wherewith or wherein be spake to or in the Prophets , but this is mear for your Masters , or little lesse then forbidden ( at least hidden ) fruit from you , who , what light soever ye have from God , yet have not learning enough to let you into an intermedling with the ( open ) secrets of their ( living ) dead letter ; as for your Scripture which is but Translation out of theirs , hear what they say of it ; who exalt it far above it self into a participation , ( thy the halves ) of the same high prerogatives with Theirs , and a taste of that glorious † Title , the Word of God , yet so as that it must know it self too , and not intrude further into it then they give leave , by their right or wrong renditions of it , ont of their for ever to be adored right-wrong Copies , who in the blinduesse of their busie brains , vanity , and follishnesse of their thoughts , and fleshly wisdom , that 's enmity against God , and enters no farther into the inside of the Scripture , than the Eye-sight of a Mole into a milstone , may render it as it seems best to themselves , and you Lack lingua's little the wiser : and if they give your Scripture an Inch , it must take heed of taking an Ell ; for as there 's a Bit , so there 's a Knock , if it presume too far ; it s admitted to be the Word of God with theirs , but not on even terms , theirs wholly and euery Apex of it , yours but by the halues , or so far onely as it corresponds with theirs , from which if it offer to vary , by theirs it must be corrected , castigated , in order to its amendment in time to come : theirs being perfectly the word of God , yea every Tittle of it the Living Word of the great God , though but transcribed ( as yours is but translated ) in the Wisedom , Skill , and Diligence of men : yours imperfectly and perfectly too , perfectly or imperfectly , according as yours expresse the words , sense and meaning of their Origina's , so that though it can be counted no Robbery for Theirs ( which is but the fruit of mans Wisdom , Skill , and Diligence ) . and ( as now transcribed ) was not ( as is confest ) received immediately from God , to be made Equall with that which was at first received more immediately from him , as the fruit of his Wisdom , Care , and Providence , yet its Robbery for yours , that comes but as theirs doth , through the Skill , Wisdom , and Diligence of Men ; and within a small matter as immediately from God as Theirs doth , to be equall with Theirs , and howbeit they may lawfully , without pride , set up Their meer Transcriptions , so as to make them sir cheek by chole with the first hand-writings , and set up their own Altar , or Altered Copies of Hebrew and Greek , with that higher Altar of God , even the Letter , or first Copy , and set up Mans posts by Gods posts , even both the first Manuscripts , and their own tottered Transcripts too , into an Equallity of Titles , Honour , Power , Perfection , Authority , Necessity , &c. with the True living Word of God , which the first and truest Scripture that ever was , was at best but a true Scripture , writing or declaration of , yet your Posts , and Altars , and Scriptures must keep aloof , and not come so nigh Theirs , as Theirs to Gods , without a check . By all wch , that 's here written in this Apostrophe to you , O poor deluded people , ye may see what a low condition ye are deprest into , till you betake your selves to the light of God within , which was before any letter to writing was without , which the Scriptures cry up & call you to , while your Scribes cry it down , cry out against it , and call you from it ; ye may see how ye are thrust out with a Pueri sacer est locus extra meijete , meddle not here ye Mechanicks , ye unlearned Laicks , from the lines of their communication , by your Fanatical , Fantastical , high flown , haughty Haebricians , and greedy Graecians , that for filthy lucre take the oversight of , or rather over you , and that take upon them by force , to be your guides , before whom you are fain to stand like some poor stupified Peasant before his Prince ; to whom if the one say but Rex sum , sic uolo , sic jubeo , So I mean to have it , the other hath no more to do , but ineak away , nor to say , but Amen , so be it , nil ultra quaero plebeius . It follows then , that none but Schollars have the undoubted word of God , for people understand not Original tongues , nor many Priests the Hebre● : and so though they say Hear the Word of God , they have no undoubted Word of God to preach out of it ; while they take their Texts out of English Bibles . So people and blind Priests , have no undoubted , infallible Rule , touchstone to try Truth by : for if this he so , how is the Scripture ( as they have it ) the most perfect Rule to them ? both people and illiterate Priests must either get Hebrew and Greek , or else confesse that they live as much by tradition in England , taking things on trust from the Priests , without tryall , as they do at Rome ; for what difference between having Scripture & no Scripture in the mother tongue , when ( notwithstanding that which is so had ) men cannot be sure which is the Word of God , which not but as the Priests tell them so : and if Priests be minded to deceive them , they may Translate it to their own turn as they please , and people ne're the wiser , & so make the Scripture , as a nose of wax , to stand to themselves , & lead the world by the nose as they have ever done , which way soever they will. So I confesse I. O. that I see the Scriptures , as taken for the Translations set somewhat lower by thee than the first Manuscripts , and then your Transcriptions in the place above quoted ( yet entitled too with the name of the Word of God in part ) but your Transcriptions , to an Apex , are equalized with the first Manuscripts , and both these elsewhere wholly with the light and living Word . It is then the meer Transcripts , and neither the first Manuscripts nor Translations , that thou talkest so exceeding strictly for the non alteration , or non-corruption of in a Title , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being lost out of the world , and Translations , excluded the lists o● thy Apologetical vindication of the Scripture in the externall Text thereof , in vindication of which Transcriptions of the Hebrew and Greek Texts , ( not appearing at all for the English , save quatenus agreeing with the other p. 153.174 . ) thou talkst on Argumentatively as follows . Arg. 1. To prove the whole Scripture ( memorandum of old and new Testament ) to remain entire to this day without ablation , or alteration of it in one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Tittle thou urgest p. 175. the providence of God in taking care of his word , which he hath magnified over all his name , as the most glorious product of his Wisdom and Goodnesse , his great concernment in this world , answering his promise to this purpose . Rep. This leads the Front of that Ragged Regiment of Arguments , which follow it at the heels , in p. 175. 176. 177. being no lesse than 12. in number , or a whole Iury impannel'd to Try this Case , of which this is the Foreman , that speaks more then they all , for it s insisted on , or hinted at or'e and o're and or'e , in I know not how many places of thy Book , as if thou laydst more stresse , and purrest more trust in this , than in all the rest , and indeed though it is a most piteous poor one , yet seeing I know no better , it may be called ( as its rank'r before the Rest ) the very best in all the pack . Let 's see then what force this consideration ( viz. ) the love , providence , care , and promise of God , to his Church and Word , Engaging for the preservation , and continuance of it to a Tittle , without losse , hath in it to evince the entirenesse of the Hebrew and Greek Text to a Tittle . That the Love. Care and Providence of God is to or ore his Church , and so ore his Word for his Churches sake I deny not in the least , and that his Word he speaks he magnifies ore all his Name , as the most glorious product of his Wisdom and Goodness , as his great concernment in this world , dearer to him than all the world besides , which his Promise is for the continuance of it so inalterably entire and uncorrupt , that Heaven and Earth it self shall pass away , as Christ saies , Matth. 5.18 . before , one jot and Tittle thereof shall fail or pass away ; and that not one Apex , Tittle , or Point of that hath yet failed , or been altered , or is liable for capable to be altered or corrupted : All this I grant , for his Word is the incorruptible Seed that lives and abides for ever . But what 's all this to thy purpose I. O. whose talk is only about the outward Writings , Image , Copy , Letter , Text , which talks of that Word , and who producest all this to prove every Tittle of that Text to be entire ? Wilt thou never learn to put , or at least to keep that difference , which somtimes , when thou art deliberate , thy self pu●test between the Word that is written of , and the Text , which is the meer Writing of it ? Dost not thou p. 12.13 . ( though I know thou blindly blendest them together both there and throughout thy Book ) make the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Writing , the Book , the Letter one thing ; and the Faith , Word , Doctrine declared in it , another ? Dost thou not distinguish now and then ( as every wise man does ever ) between the Text it self that talks of the Truth , and the Truth it self which the Text talks on ? We know the Truth , and Faith , and Doctrine , and Word of God , which is but One and the same in its Nature , Essence , Being , and Substance , whether written or not written of , whether cloathed or not cloathed in this or that outward , accidental forme , whether displaying it self through the vail of the Letter , or shewing it self more immediately in its naked Native lustre , is to a Tittle the same now that it ever was , in Substance though all the shadowy Discoveries of it wax old . and vanish , and as a vesture are folded up and changed , and Pass away as a Scrole that 's Roled up , and grows out of Date , when all Letters and Literal Appearances of it shall be mouldered away . The Word was before the Letter was , aud is neither more nor less what it was , now the Letter is , and will be no less than it was of old , or what now it is , as to its preservation in every point , when the Letter shall be no more . So that what are all thy Propositions about Gods Promise , and Providence , and Love , and Care of his Church and Word to evince or prove the entire preservation of every Iot and Tittle of an outward Text , or an old uncertain Transcript of what was by the Holy men of God some thousands of Years since written ? between which Word and the Writing , or Light and the Letter which leads only to it , there 's no more proportion ( as I may shew thee more anon ) than is between the Lanthorn and the Light , the Glass Window and the Sun that shines through it ; or then ( as thy self intimatest ) there is between the Ark and the Testament or Covenant , that for a while was used to be kept in it . Dost not thou count the Letter the Ark , p. 236. saying , the Iews have now the Letter , as somtimes they had the A●k among the Philistims to their further ruine , and p. 315. For my own part I am sollicitous for the Ark or the sacred Truth of the Original . Yea such proportion say I as the Ark , that kept it , bore to the Letter of the old Testament that was laid up in it , the same doth the Old Testament it self , the whole 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or bare Letter , or Shadowy Dispensation bear unto the Light , Word of God , or New Testament , which is not a Literal , but a Spiritual Administration Now as it would be f●lly and absurdity in the abstract for a man to Argue the Light to be the proper name of the Lanthorn which exhibits it , the Sun the proper Name of the Glass it shines through , and the Writing or Letter of the old Testament the proper name of the Ark , in which it was laid up , and then to affirm all the Properties that appertain peculiarly to the Light , Sun , Letter , belong to the Lanthorn , Glass , Ark respectively , and to plead from the unchangeableness of the Light , the permanency of the Sun , the long duration of the Letter . ( Some of which in some uncertain Copies abides to this day ) that the Lanthorn is unalterable , the Window inviolable , the Ark abiding the self same , and not one jor or inch of it is lost or altered to this day ; but in all points in the same that it was when Moset made it , because some Copies , Imagess and Pictures of it are found painted on Walls , aud Printed in Books , or so , to this day , Semblably as Ridiculous it is to the full to Argue the Letter is immediately come to us from God without interveniency of any Medium obnoxious to fallibility , the Text is not capable to be altered , not is altered in one Tittle so , but that its intirely the same that it was at first in every Point , Syllable and Iota , because the Light , Faith , Doctrine , Truth , and Word , which is as the Sun , the same still and preserved in the Providence of God , full , firm , and sure , as all the Ordinances of Heaven are , whether it shews it self through a Glass only or without it . Now then howbeit we own all that which I. O. tells of the Providential care and Promise of God as to the preserving of his Word to his Church to be true , as told of his Word , yet as spoken of the Letter , as Gods great Concernment in this World dearer to him than all the World , the most glorious Product of his Wisdom and Goodness , and such like , and as urg'd in proof of the Text , and each Tittle of that to be Entire and Eternal as the Heavens ; I say ( as so ) every Tittle of it is false . And I would fain know of I O. what Text of Scripture God ever made such a Promise in concerning the Text or the Scripture , that he would in his Care and Providence preserve every Titt'e of that outward Writing , for his Church and his Words sake , which was written at the motion of his Spirit , so that it never should be so mis-transcribed in any Tittle of it , but that in the Greek and Hebrew Copies ( not English ( mark that ) nor any Translated , but only Transcribed Copies ) he would keep it from being so adulterated , vitiated , altered , depraved , and interpolated as not to be every jot the same verbatim as at first : I say I. O. where is that Promise so made to this purpose , which his Providence is so engaged to answer ? Is it in Isa. 59.22 . the place thou quorest together with a whole nest of others to the same end . p. 155. ( viz. ) Matth 5.18 . 1 Pet 1.25 . 1 Cor. 11. Matth. 28.20 . not one of which make one jot of mention of the Letter , Text , or any Tittle thereof at all ? That in Isaiah there cited is hinted at , and harp : upon to the same Tune in 7 , or 8 pages in thy 2d Treatise , viz. 155 , 167 , 168 , 169 , 273 , 317 , 319. In all which more or less , in whole or part thou talkest much of the Transcribers lying under a loving and careful aspect from the Promise and Providence of God in beir transcribing , alluding all along to I● 59.12 . as if God had there engaged himself by Promise , as it were , to guide their hands that they should not erre in a Tittle for his Word and Churches sake : but is there the least Tittle of such a Promise there made ? and look it ●ore again , and see if there be such a thing touche upon in the least , either expressly or implicity , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as thou speakst ) or by consequence either immediate or far fetcht : the words are these to the Church , under the new Covenant or Gospel : My words which I have put into thy mouth , shall not depart out of the Mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever : Here I confesse is a promise to keep his words in the mouths of his Servants under the Gospel in the latter dayes especially , so that they shall by word of mouth , and writing , bear Testimony against the world to his Truth and Name , even the whole seed of the Righteous successively for ever , without fail , as now they begin to do , even ●abes and Sucklings , out of whose mouths and stammering lips the Lord is speaking , to reprove the world , and the proud Doctors , Pharisaical , self-seeking Teachers , and to convince all ungodly ones of their ungodly deeds and hard Speeches they speak against him in his Saints , in whom he comes to Judgement : but what 's this to the preservation of I. O's . Greek and Hebrew Texts to a Tittle , without alteration ? This is not spoken of the continuance of any outward Scripture , but of that word of Faith , in the heart and mouth , which the Apostles Rom. 10. preacht to turn men to , telling them 't was nigh , and they need not look without for it : was ever man so bemoped , as to draw such a Conclusion as thou dost from that Scripture , ( viz. ) that every Tittle of the Text of Scripture given out of old , should be secured without one jot of losse , to the worlds end ; and if that were the promise there made , it was never made good since ( as is shewed above ) the Scriptures of sundry whole prophecies and Epistles , written by inspiration , are lost since then : nay rather , and indeed , that Text produces a Truth , which thou deniest , that in the last dayes his word and Spirit shall be ( de novo ) so poured out , shed abroad , and planted in the heares of his handmaids and servants , Sons and Daughters , that they shall Prophesie , and reach as of old , by word of Mouth his word , as put into them by God himself ; Yet I. O. I know not how often betakes himself to that Text , to make good his talk of the eternal Entirenesse , to a Tittle , of his outward Text , in the Greek and Hebrew Transcripts thereof , without which the word is as true entire , and secure , ( as it is when the Text is entire ) when the Text is torn to pieces , and every Tittle of it mouldred away . Beside , if that were a promise of preserving the Text , it must evince the Text , is to endure for ever , world without end , as the word it self doth , for its never to depart for ever , from the seed that it 's there promised to , but I. O. confesses , the Scripture is not to abide for ever , in its use ; which is onely faith he , Ex. 3. S. 39. presenti statui , &c. suited to our present state , and ( say I ) as it shall cease , as to it's use , so once to its esse or very being . Obj. And if I. O. urge , as he does in effect , that it 's true , the Word , and Doctrine , and Truth , is the thing promised to be continued for ever primarily , but consequentially the Letter and it's Tittles , for as much as without it be preserved in that , and that be preserved entire to a Tittle , the word it self cannot be preserved from corruption . Rep. He had as good have told me , ( & as soon I should have believed him in it ) that because Moses by Gods appointment made an Ark , to lay the Book , Tables and Letter in , the two Tables and Letter written on it could not last any longer then the Ark , or be kept from being lost any where be not kept so entire , that not one bit or scrap of it be broken or lost , there is no hopes that ever the light should shine out or be kept alive , or be beheld , yea if one inch of horn , or a nail , or the least Pin about the Ark had happened to be shattered , or got any knock , or any odd corner of it be broken off with being carried , jumbled , or tossed to and sro between Israel and the Philistines , there had been no means of preserving the Letter from being lost ; or as if one should say , the glasse window is set up that the Sun may shine through it , therefore suppose that to be crackt , or to have any flawes in it , or to suffer the losse of but one little piece of a pane , there 's no likelihood of enjoying the clear bright Beams of the Sun , more distinctly , or at any certainty , nor can I be satisfied unquestionably , that the Sun it self remains inviolate , unlesse ye can assure me that there is every barley-corns bredth of the glasse-window , without any losse , as it was at first setting up , though yet we see now the Sun both is the same , and is better seen , when beheld without a glasse then thorough it , and is most clear when the glasse window is taken down , and it beheld more immediately in the light that shines from it self , he were fit to be Canonized for a fool , that would count him a very wife man , at least ; as to that affair , that should so affirm ; so let who will esteem of I. O's wisedom in this point , yet I am not such a fool yet , or not so wise , or something , as to believe him : howbeit , who e're believes , or believes him not , in such wise as this aforesaid , he talks in effect ; while p. 12.13 . he sayes thus , without proof ( as he does most things ) according to his own vain thoughts , as followes , viz. I. O. The Providence of God hath manifested it self , no lesse concerned in the preservation of the writings , then the doctrine contained in them . Rep. Which is a loud one , for many Holy Prophets writings are lost , but not a Doit of the Doctrine . I. O. The writing it self being the product of his own eternall Councel , for the preservation of the Doctrine , after a sufficient discovery of the insufficiency of all other means , for that end and purpose . Rep. Which is another , for the Doctrine can never perish , if every Tittle of the Text should . I. O. The malice of Satan hath raged no lesse against the Book , than the Truth certained in it . Rep. Which is a third . For Satan will allow people Bibles and Texts enough to talk of Truth out of , so they walk not in Truth . I. O. It was no lesse Crime to be Traditor libri , then Abnegator fidei . Rep. Which is a fourth false Tale , for the burning the Book can't murder the faith as having the light does , which with it's fellows , I have disproved , and given Reasons against , above ; and while p. 17.18.19 . in answer to Capellus his honest Grants , that the Saving Doctrine of the Scripture , as to the matter and substance of it in all things of moment , is preserved in the Copies of the Original , and Translations that do remain , J.O. assenting first to it as Truth , to the overthrowing of himself ( as he often does ) that notwithstanding all the errours and mistakes in the most corrupt Translations , yet every necessary , saving , fundamentall truth is found , sufficiently Testified to therein ( or if he deny that of Translations , let him do it , and see what a pickle he puts poor people into , who upon the account of that denyal , will be found not to have all saving Truth in their Bibles ) he asserts . I. O. That 't is not enough to satisfie him , that ( in his doted on Transcribed Copies of the Original ) the doctrines mentioned are preserved entire , every Tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must come under Care and consideration , or else injury is done to the Providence of God towards his Church , and care of his word , and that it will not be found an easie matter , upon a supposition of such corruptions of the Originals , ( in Tittles and points &c. as is pleaded for against him ) to evince unquestionably , that the whole saving Doctrine it se●f , at first given out from God ▪ continues entire and uncorrupt . Rep. Oh grosse , as if the entirenesse of the eternall Truth , that was before all external Text was , was now so subjected , as to depend on the entirenesse of a tottering Text for its security , or else is lost for ever ; and yet yielded to be preserved entire in Translations , that are corrupt in more then Tittles , but not possib●e to be kept entire in Transcriptions , if any Tittle be mis-transcribed therein . I O That the nature of the doctrine is such , that there is no other principle , and means of its discovery , no other Rule , or measure of Iudging and determining any thing about or concerning it , but onely the writing out of which it is taken . Rep. As if the Doctrine comes from the writing , when as the writing came from the Truth and Doctrine . I. O. It being wholly of divine Revelation , and that revelation being exprest onely in that writing . Rep. Absit absurdum , de quo vere dicitur quod posito uno sequuntur millia . As if Revelation were not made more truely , clearly , distinctly , and immediately by the light and Spirit , then ( mediante litera ) by the mediation of the letter , that comes from it , in which thou sayst Revelation only is made , before which yet the doctrine was revealed . I. O. That upon any corruption supposed in the Transcript Copies of the Originall , ( but not the Translations ) there 's no means of rectifying the Doctrine . Rep. No , by no means its like , as if the Spirit and Light could not now possibly reveal it , as easily as at first , and as if Truth were not as equally by the Spirit exposed to the understanding of men in all ages , as in some : and as if pure Revelation were not made now by the light , and Spirit of Truth , which depends solely on Revelation , as it ever did , and not on a letter that came from it . Thus much to the first of those Scriptures urged by thee I. O. to prove the promise of God to preserve the Scripture , even ! every Tittle of the external Texts in Transcripts , ( not Translations ) , for Ever , and the second is like unto it , ( viz ) Math. 5.18 . where though Christ talks of not one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Tittle failing , he that shall understand him speaking there , of the outward writing , and outward Tittles of the Law of it , many Tittles and Books , of which were lost before that , and not of the light it self , which is that Law , the Letter is but a Copy of , and of the word it self that Christ speaks , which is that that is heard by his sheep onely , in the heart , and that comes immediately from his own mouth , understands neither what he says , nor whereof he affirmes ; yet in three places I. O. quotes it to evince the Integrity , and Identity of every Tittle of the Text , as 't was at first , ( viz. ) p. 13.155.317 . The Third is as little , alias not one jot not Tittle to I. O's purpose , ( viz. ) 1 Pet. 1.25 . where Peter speaks no more of any outward Texts or Transcripts , then if he had said nothing at all : nor of such a corrupting thing as Manuscripts , Texts , and Transcripts , Titles , and dead Letters are , but of the incorruptible seed , the Word of God , that liveth , and endureth for ever , ver . 23. Even the word of the Gospel , which was that word of faith Paul also writes of , Rom. 10.8 . which was preached by the Apostles , and Testified to by them , and their Scripture , and Moses Scripture , Deut. 30.14 . and all outward Scripture , that its nigh within , in the heart and mouth . The Fourth , viz. 1 Cor. 11. no verse of which is quoted , is so far from adding a cubit to I. O's cause about the Scripture , that there 's no mention made of any Scripture at all , thoroughout the whole Chapter ; so that what verse he should infer or scrue any thing from , to evince the Scripture to be entire to a Tittle , I can't imagine . Paul tells of things he had delivered to them before , which-whether it were by word of Mouth , or Epistle , he intimates not there ; but whether it were by Orall preaching , or writing is much at one to I. O. for if by writing , which serves I , O. most , yet he means not the writing it self , or Epistle , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the things he delivered , as he did to the Thessalonians , 2. Thes 2. by word , or Epistle , and if I. O. will have it so , that t was by a former Epistle , then he serves me against T. D. and himself , more than himself against me , acknowledging the first Epistle of Paul to Corinth ( which he wrote before the first of the two we have , and mentions 1. Cor. 5. ) to be Authentick and Canonical and so that a whole Canonical Epistle of that holy Apostle ( and that 's more than a Tittle , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is utterly lost . The Fifth , viz. Math. 28.20 . Teaching them to observe whatever I command you , and so I am with you alway , even to the end of the world : which way I. O. can from thence conclude a promise for every Tittle of inspired Scripture to be preserved for ever entire without losse , or alteration , I see not ; but I see one thing , that if I. O. hobble but upon a Text of Scripture , he thinks at a venture it must serve his Turn , about the entirenesse and integrity of the Text , and its Tittles , though there be no mention of Scripture made at all in it ▪ for here 's none in this , in which Christ bids them , Teach the Nations to observe what he commanded them , and that they did , & he promised then to be with them alway , to the end of the world , as he was , and is ever with his people , by his light , word , they being turned to it themselves : but what 's all this to the Tittles of Hebrew and Greek Texts ? unlesse I. O. say they are the Christ that he meant , when he laid I will be with you ; never did I see men in two Books so miserably wrest , and mis-interpret Scripture , on pretence of vindicating Scripture , as T. D. and I. O. do . Yea I. O. there is scarce any , or but very few , of all the Scriptures thou quotest in all thy Books , but thou pervertest them more or lesse , as T. D. does the most , if not all he meddles with : whether about the Scripture , or the word , or foundation , or Rule , or what ever else . And as for these five last examined , if thou hadst not sent me to them to that end , I should as soon of my self have gone to seek a Dolphin in the woods , as lookt into any one of them to find God promising in his love to his Church , and Word , and in order to the preserving of them both , to be carefull to set his providence so on work , as to lay the Transcribers of the Scriptures in the Hebrew and Greek Tongues ( but not the Transla●ors of them into other tongues , in which yet his care , and Love to his Church , though not to the Clergy , that trade out of their Original Texts , would as much appear , and his Truth , and most mens souls are as much concerned , and more too , then in Hebrew and Greek Texts , if the Scripture were the onely way to life ) under his loving aspect , so as to see they should not misse , nor falsifie in a Tittle ; though he would leave Translators out of the lists of that loving aspect , to erre and corrupt as much as they would : for howbeit I ken not the mystery of I. O's mind , in this , nor any Reason why ( if God love his Church and Word ) he should not in his care to preserve both , oversee , with a loving Aspect , that Translators should not mis-translate , as well as Transcribers not mis-transcribe , yet I. O. allowes the loving Aspect of God to Transcribers , but ( whether God himself do so or no , I dare not say ) denying that great favour as in which his Church is much concerned , as in the other , to Translators . for p. 334. speaking of the Chaldee Paraphrase , he sayes thus , viz. Seeing it hath not lain under any peculiar care , and mercifull providence of God , whether innumerable other faults be not get into it , and errours , not to be discovered by any varieties of Copies , as it is happened with the Sepmagint , who can tell ? No promise , nor providence , nor mercy , nor loving aspect , to the poor peoples Scripture still , which is that of Translation onely , for they cannot read Hebrew and Greek , their part may go whither it will , God looks not after it : but such darlings do our Doctors and Clergy men deem themselves to be with God , that his love , care , oversight , promise , providence and all , is towards every Tittle of their Transcripts , that they may trade with their Text , and mete out what they will to men for money from it ; should any Qua. make such mad conclusions , their Books would be good enough to be burned ; and thou I. O wouldst Iudge them no better . Egregiam vero laudem & spolia ampla refertis Tuque liberque tuus , magnum & memorabile nomen . Having foild the Front-Guard of that Ragged Rout , the Rest that have far lesse Reason in them , ( if lesse can be ) are soon Routed . Arg. the Second , is the Religious care of the Church ( not of the Romish Synagogue sayst thou ) to whom these Oracles of God were committed . Rep. What Church then ( if not the Remish Synagogue ) hath had that Commission of the Scriptures to her , and that Religious care thou here talkst on , to keep every Tittle of the Text entire , without losse or change ? I do not say that the now Romane Harlot hath now or ever had in her Apostatical slate , such a Commission of the Scripture to her , as she pretends to , as if they were the onely Trustees , to whose care and custody the Text was committed of God , for as to their proud prate , and peculiar claim , to such a preheminent power , to be keepers and preservers of the Scripture , I deny it , nay with thy self in the 2.3.4.5 . pages of thy Epistle . I disown and damn their deceitfull pretence , to such a trust reposed in them : and if they had enjoy'd any such , they have ( as thou sayest truly ) manifested a treacherous mind , and falsified their Trust egregiously , and so cannot stand in Judgement , if called to account upon their own principles , having indeed so far as they have had to do with the Scriptures , altered , added , detracted , depraved , vitiated , interpolated , and done what not ? to corrupt them , during the long time of their Dominus fac-totum-ship , in whole Christendom , about Scripture , and every thing else ad extra , that had any pretence toward the Truth ; and while the Scripture of the Old , but the New Testament , more specially ( seeing the Iewes reject it ) lay lockt up from all the Laity , within the lines of her conclavical , clerical Conemunication ; for though de jure they ought not so to have impropriated it , but were Arrogant usurpers in so doing , yet that de facto they had the grand Custody of that ye call your Canon , and changed it as they pleased , I should judge thee more silly then I am willing to do , if thou shouldst deny it , there being no visibly constituted Christian Church , as to outward Order , in all Europe , that was other then a member of that blind , Babylonish Body , for at least a thousand years together . But if that Church had not ( as I say they had not ) canst thou tell me what Church had the exact Tale of so many Books of the Scripture , as ye talk on , and call your Canon , committed to her of God , any more then they ? or if thou say the whole True Apostolical Church of Christ , under the Gospel , had that Scripture we count the Canon , and no more , committed to it , where was there ever such a thing done ? by whom ? or when ? canst thou tell us any of this thou talkst on ? or give us any Testimony of Scripture for this , or trusty Tradition , or any ground whereupon to act divine faith in this ( with thee ) so fundamental a matter , save ●he fiction of thy own fancy , and thy own meer untrusty thoughts , and blindly confident Conjectures ? thou thinkst that in 2. Tim. 2.2 . will serve thy turn in this case , but I have overturned that already : and if ever there were such a divine Commission of so many writings , as a Canon by Christ or his Apostles to the Gospel-Church ( though I abhor that paultry , novelly pretended Primacy of Rome , over other particulars ) yet while it remained in its Primitive Apostolical Purity , it had as deep a share , as any other , in that Commission of the Canon to her ; and so thy two Questions , Ep. p. 3. what Scripture was this they say was committed to them , and when was this deed of Trust made unto them , have full as much in them ( but that plane nibilest ) to answer thee withall , as thou hast to answer me , who of the Church to whose care and custody thou sayest the Scripture was committed since Christ , and by him , or his Apostles ; do here ask thee , what Church is that ( for thou amazest thy own , and seek'st ( as Priests do ) to stun other mens minds with the name of the Church , the Church ) but what Church is that , whose care is said by thee to be so great , whilst Rome's was so little , to keep every Tittle of the Text entire , and to whose care and custody it was to that end committed , and intrusted ? and ( in thy own words to Rome , so ) I to thee , propound , what Scripture was this , or where was this deed of Trust made unto them ? And since it was not the Church of Rome ( as I freely agree with thee it was not ) what Church was it ? or where liv'd it , or by what name or Title , beside that generall blind people-confounding name of Church , dost thou call it ? was it some one universal , Catholick , visibly constituted , true Christian Church , that had such a constant , clearly visible continuance , and successive outward orderly being in a Body , as that Romane Harlot hath ever seemed to have from Christ , downward to this day ? was it your ( what should I call it ? ) mingle-mangled Episcopall-Presbyter-Independant Church , that 's run out from the Womb of that Babylonish Bawd , through the loines of your late Fathers , the Prelates , and Scottish Presbyters , into that Ragged , Patcht Posture , wherein it now stands , like a Participle , that 's neither this nor that , nor Noun Substantive , that can stand by it self , without the Magistrates help , nor Verb that betokens either doing or suffering , any great matters for the Truth , but most like an Adjective that leans upon Parliaments , and earthly Powers to uphold it , partaking with all sides , as occasion is , and of all formes something , yet is just nothing , but some Participle , or PapalPrelatical-Presbyterian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i.e. ) vere nihil but a mongrel ? Was it this Church , that is one , not individually , but specifically the same , with what yours is , at this present , derived downward , and carefully receiving the Scripture downward entirely , in all its Hebrew and Greek Letters , Accents , Points , Tittles , and Iota's , without change , or losse in the least ? is so shew us but some few footsteps of such a thing through the time of the Catholike Apostacy , as a visible constituted Church , which might have been known by the distinction of Elders , Bishops , Deacons , &c. in the dark dayes of Romes dominion , ( except that of Rome it self ) that had the Canon constituted of no more nor l●sse , but just so many Scriptures , Letters , Stories , Tittles , Iota's ( as thou trislingly tatlest ) by the Apostles , and so committed to their care , and as carefully handed down to you Linguists , in every Letter of the Original Languages , without alteration , addition or diminution ? But I more than suppose thou shalt as soon find , and follow to a hairs breadth , the very way of a bird flying , or an Arrow shot through the air , as decypher such a matter : and if the Papists should put the Question , de novo , to thee , as they did long since , to the Protestants , where was your Church before Luther ? if thou couldst prove the Pedegree of thine so high as Luther ( though witnesses to the Truth more or lesse , in all times , suffering in sackcloth , in the most dismall dayes I own , ) yet thou wouldst be as much puzled to prove any other constituted Church , that kept so entire ( as thou talkst ) thy constituted Canon , in all Christendom , beside that of the Romish Synagogue , that corrupted it , as that namelesse Author was , who wrote an answer to it , 1624 , entituled Luthers Predecessors , who though he quits himself well in proving downward from Iohn Wicklisse , who was well nigh 200. years afore Luther , but 1370. after Christ , a company of particular successive sufferers , for some truth that began to shine out again from under the Romish smother ; yet can instance no higher then Io. Wicklisse for at least a 1000. years upward , any thing at all , but an universal dominion of the Church of Rome , confessing that if the Papists will tye him to prove any visible constituted Church beside theirs , before Luther , the Task is unequall because the records are wanting , and also because the Church was not in the long time of Apostacy , nor yet was to be alwaies in such a manner visible ; which is the very Truth , for the true Church was to be , and was according to the word of Prophesie : Rev. 12. in a waste , suffering , afflicted , desolate , forlorn , widernesse , condition , trodden under feet by the Gentiles , coming into the out Court , the outward name and profession of Christianity , Rev. 11. And as when in her primitive glory she was cloathed with the Sun , and a crown of twelve stars on her head , i.e. the doctrine , truth , word of faith , the 12 Apostles Preached ( and not simply those few of their naked writings , and Letters , and Texts , and their Tittles , and thou simply contendest ) on her head , and the Moon , i.e. all changeable things , such as all Texts , and Transcripts , and Tittles , and Iota's are , under her feet , so when she came into her forlorn solitary state , in the time ( which was while the Whore , or Clergy began to Ride the Beast , and fit upon the Waters , Tongues , Nations , Kings , and Kindreds of the Earth , and to cry Ecce duo gladii hic , to claim both swords and to become supreamly ( as she made her sub-sub , or Magistratical Power , that bore her up subordinately to her ) not onely Custos utriusque Tabulae , Vice-preserver of both Tables , but pretendedly , Custos utriusque Testamenti , chief Commissioners , Trustees , and keepers of both Testaments ) when she was driven to and fro , and chased like a Roe , or Sheep , and kept under , and domineered over , by the said mystical Whore , and hunted , as well as by the Heathen Emperors , in the first three hundred years , or ten first persecutions , she was in her several witnesses massacred , murderd , hang'd , burnt , headed , fryed , flead , tortured in all the wayes that Tyrants could invent ; though you that have no changes , and therefore fear not God , and sit at ease in your Ce●ls , and are not shifted from vessel to vessel , and so like Moab , have an ill sent settled in you , can have time to talk to each other with your Tongues , and in your Treatises about your Texts , in severall Tongues , and your Letter in this Language , that and t'other ; yet the True Church , which , but that the care , and Providence , and Presence of God was with her according to his promise , full hardly kept , and had much ado to keep the Truth in the inward parts , and her self from the outrages committed on her ) had other weightier matters to mind , and look after , and meddle with , then the seeking out , and looking up , and keeping , and preserving of such toyes , as ye are now taken , and wholly taken up with ; that is to say , the integrity of the Hebrew and Greek Texts , the Points , Vowels , Accents , triviall Tittles , and Iota's : and where thou find'st the Spouses care , according to a Commission given her from God , to be so extream , as thou intimarest about these matters ( excepting in thy own nfinitely forging fancy ) no wise seeker shall ever find . Arg. Thy third is the care of the first Writers in giving out Authentique Copies , of what they had received from God unto many , which might be Rules to the first Transcribers . Reply . O' cur as hominum , &c. from whence didst thou fetch this false and foolish piece of faith , save from the old fathomlesse fountain of thy own fancy ? which , if something as good as nothing may serve ( as easily it may to fasten falsity upon fools ) will find something to say for every thing that it finds occasion to fain ; where readest thou that the first writers of every corner of thy ( so called ) Canon , ( which thou must Adaequate thy proof to , as well as to the whole , or else thou Syllogizest short of what thou aimest at ) took such care to give out Authentick Copies of what they wrote , as from God , unto many , to ●●is end , that they might be Rules to the first Transcribers ? Alas poor imagining man , they that were Ministers not of the Letter , but the Spirit , were not so full of Care , as ye are , and as ye ( measuring the enlargednesse , and copiousnesse of others , by your straitned , narrow , sca●ty selves ) conceive they were , about such emptinesse , as Copies of what they wrote , Transcripts , Texts , Tittles , Points , I●ta's , V●wels , Accents , and such accidental stuffe , as is not de esse to the Kingdom and Gospel of it , which they published : if any of them did as once Paul did , will that the Colossians should let Laodicea read what he wrote to them , and read from Laodicea what he wrote thither , whether in●a Transcript , or the Original Copy , which might passe between two near Sister-Churches , who knows ? yet how many Copies , and to how many did he give out Copies , of what he wrote to particulars , to be transcribed , and kept , and committed to the whole Church of God , as a Rule for future Transcribers , and a Rule of Faith and Obedience , and such like , to all ages of the world for ever ? his first to the Corinthians , and to Ephesus , and to Laodicea , for all his desire it should be read by the Colossians , happened to misse your Bibles , to be bound and bundled into which I know it was no more intended , then sundry others that are there , which he wrote to particular , and some private persons , about private , particular , and personal affairs ; some wrote more generall Epistles to all Saints , then in being as Peter , Iude , Iames , Iohn , and they might be ( but between might be , and necessarily must be , there 's great difference ) as generally read as they could be , where e're they came , as being of more direct and general concernment to all , as in that capacity of Saints ; and some wrote more particularly , as occasion was , and they were moved by the Spirit , ( in which they did all that they did at all , and not in the movings of the flesh ) letters to private persons about private matters , as Iohns short letter to Gaius , and Pauls to Philemon , and Timothy about the bringing of his cloak he left at Troas , with Carpus : but did either one or t'other of these give out Authentick Copies of these two private letters to many , to be a Rule to the first Transcribers , and Rules to all Saints , to the worlds end : 't is true , they are in your Bibles among others , that were got together , and it pleases me well that they are there , and should , if you had all that ever the Apostles and Prophets wrote , whereof if you have the 20th . or 100th . part , it s more then either you or I , or any man now knows , and much it matters not for the certain knowledge of such an uncertain , unprofitable thing , but what of that , will it follow , that these about Onestmus his being received into his Master Philemons service again , and Iohn's telling Gaius , he would not write more to him now with Pen and Ink , but hoped to see him shortly , were ever intended by them to be the Canon to the Church of God in all ages , which must be committed to the Care of Transcribers , to be successively Copied out to a Tittle , so that on supposition of any corruption , or change of a Letter , in the writing them over , the eternall faith of God would Cernally fall to the ground , and the word of God not be preserved fr●m being lost , ( as thou dotest ) much more , if those whole Letters or Epistles themselves should be lost , then actum est , &c. no other means of discovery , nor recovery of the whole substantial Truth , but that would fail together with them ? must those be also submitted to so strictly , that he that should not beleeve every external Tittle of the Text , there Transcribed , to be the word of God ( as thou tellest us ) should be left inexcusable in his damnable unbelief , and be in peril of Eternal damnation , and such danger as I. O. dreams , and would draw all men into the dream of , together with him ? Scilicet is superis labor est , ea cura quietos Sollicitat : As if the Saints of old , and they now that live at rest in God , 〈◊〉 witness God dwelling in them of a Truth , had nothing to do but belabour ●hemselves , and cumber one anothers minds , as our wife Clergy does , who are wearied in the greatnesse of their way , and are Mole Ruentes sua , as Suis & ipsa a Roma viribus Ruit , with continuall wrestlesness , and as endless , as easelesse Care and thought of a e i o u Tittle , and such Nugacyties as these , that are ●atcht in I. O's head piece : whom I here give to understand , that while they , like the Tiberian Massorites , at their do-little Academies , are so seriously doing of nothing , and as childish in serious things , yet nos nucibus facimus quaecunque relictis . Arg. thy Fourth is the multiplying Copies to such a number , that 't was impossible any should corrupt them All wilfully , or by negligence . Rep. Nugae ! why Impossible to corrupt them All ? if not by wilfulnesse , yet by negligence , was it impossible that there should be variation in Tittles and Iota's , ( which is corruption with thee ) in them all ? hast thou any more infallible security against the mis-transcription of them All , then thou hast against the mis-transcription of some onely ? surely a man well in his wits would have Argued thus : It was possible to every individual of the Copies to be mis-transcribed through negligence , or wilfulnesse , or weaknesse , and against the will , or something of the Transcribers ( none of them being any more then fallible ( as thou sayest p. 167. though never so honest ) therefore it was possible at least , and not impossible , but that they might be all mis-transcribed ▪ and so corrupted . ●●●●●ver might be spoken of every individual Copy , as to its lyableness to ●●●●●ation ( caeteris paribus , ) supposing All the remote Transcribers to be but f●●lible as well as some ) may be said of All the Copies , as well as of any one of them : and if the ability of some Transcribers , might be greater then that of other some , yet ( as thou sayest of the 70 Translators ▪ p 339. ) thou having no security of the principles , or honesty of the Ablest●●●s them , for what thou knowest , what ere thou thinkest , they might be A'l mis-transcribed , as well as any one , and however seeing thou veildest , som● might be , if All could not , it would puzle thee not a little to d●clare to him that Asks thee , which is right and which wrong , and in which possibly the Transcribers might be mistaken , and in which it was in ●●ssible they should ●e so , and which do , and which do not agree with the Autograph● , none of which are left to correct it by ; there being no more then the Apographa now remaining . But assuredly what mistake wa● possible to befall my one of the Copies , was not impossible so befall every of them , and so far art thou from denying it to be possible , that some mistakes and v●●iations might befall some Copies , for all thy peremptory pronouncing it impossible , that variations should befall them All , in regard of the number of Copies that p. 191. upon that self same account of the multitude of Transcriptions , thou pronouncest it utterly impossible , that All the Transcriptions should be made without some variations and mistakes ; thy words there being these , ( viz. ) that so many . Transcriptions , most of them by private persons , for private use , having a standard of correction in the publike Asse●●lyes ready to relieve their mistakes , should be made without some variation , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or impossible ; O ye Ridiculous Ringles & Round Os that I. O. makes and runs in ! he complains of Capellus , p. 15. for Asserting variations in All the p●esent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Transcriptions of the old Testament , upon meerly uncertain Conjectures , yet upon as meerly uncertain Conjectures himself asserts , that they are not All corrupted ; yea he sayes ( a he thinks ) that its impossible there should be mistakes and variations in All the Transcriptions , and yet that it is impossible but that mistakes and variations should be in many of them . Quis legat haec ? min tu istud ais ? quis non ni i nemo . Arg. thy Fifth , is the preservation of the Authentick Copies , frist in the Iewish Synagogues , then in Christian Assemblies with reverence and diligence . Rep , What 's all that in proof , that there 's no variation in Copies of the Hebrew and Greek Text , in so ●uch as in Tittles and Iota's ? if thou couldst prove , as thou dost b●t onely propound it , as thy opinion , that Authentick Copies were kept with such Reverence and Diligence downward to this day in Christian Assemblies , which Christian Assemblyes ( unlesse thou count upon those of the Romish Synagogue as such , which onely remained in an outward way of Assembling ) were not kept in the posture of constituted Christian Assemblyes themselves , much lesse then Authentick Copies of the Original Text entire in them , for a thousand years , and upward ; But when they were in Assemblies they rather look● each at their translated Copies their severall Mother Tongues , then at the Hebrew and Greek Tittles , and Iota's , that thou so openly Tatlest for with such earnestnesse , as if all divine Truth , as to our knowledge thereof , did entirely and eternally depend upon them ; what dribling doings are here for a Doctor ? Arg. thy Sixth , is the daily Reading and Studying of the world by all sorts of persons ever since its first writing , rendring every alteration lyable to immediate observation and discovery , and that all over the world . Rep. What 's this to the purpose ? when was there more Reading , and Studying the Scripture by All sorts , all the world over , and Tumbling to and fro to wearisomnesse by the Scripture-searching Scribes , that never hear Gods voice , nor come to Christ the Light , that they may have Life , and more close and curious prying , and Critical observing of the Points , and Vowe●s , & Accents ; by Syllabical and Punctual Schoolmen as at this very day , in their Academical entercourses , and interchangeable pro and con prate , about punctations , from one nation to another ? yet when more variety then now in the Copies of their Texts , which the more they dive into the more discovery they make of the diversity of their Transcripts ? but the matter is not mended for all that , nor the multiplication of errours and various lections and mistakes of more then Tittles , in writings , or printings , and reprintings , and why much reading & study should be a means to prevent mistakes of old , that 's none now , though more forcible then formerly , if any efficacy were in it at all that way , either I have not reason enough to render the Reason of it , or rather there is no Reason for it at all , and that indeed is the very Truth . Arg. thy Seventh is the consideration of the many millions that looked on every Tittle and Letter in this Book , as their inberitance , which for the whole world they would not be deprived of . Rep. What people be those that lookt on every Tittle and Letter in the Bible as their inheritance , which for the whole world they would not part with one Tittle of ? for my part , I look upon them as ne'r the wiser for that , if they were as many millions of millions , as thou sayest there are millions of them ; for my part I love the Bible as much as I do any book in the world , and upon a true and just account , and in a right way honour it as much as any man does , I. O. himself not excepted , for all his high unjust Adorations of it ; and as for the holy Truth that 's declared in it , I have bought and paid so dear for that , that no lesse then All that I had in the world , of what sort soever , lust , pleasure , honour , riches , or righteousnesse of mine , is gone for the sake of it , and to have all that ever I lost for it I would not sell it again , yet All the Tittles and Letters , Accents , Iota's and Points ( which I. O. counts his such a rich possession , p. 252. ) that are in All the Hebrew Bibles and Greek Testaments I have , and I have more than one of each sort ; any one shall have of me for five pound , and lesse money ( and the Books themselves to boot ) and that is lesse then the whole world , and yet I shall hope to enjoy not a Tittle the lesse of the word of Truth , that is therein told , if I sincerely attend to the light the Letter calls to , though I should never neither buy nor so much as look into any outward Copy of the Original Text more while I live . And whereas I. O. sayes , p. 163. somewhat sutably to what he sayes here , that the Church of God , doth now , and hath for many ages enjoyed the Copies of the Original Languages , as her chiefest Treasure . I say that is one of the chiefest untruths that have been told yet , among those many that he hath Treated out of that whole Treasury of Tales , and vāin thoughts that are in his heart , out of the abundance of which evil Treasury his mouth speaketh , and pen bringeth forth evil things : for though the Churches of mans constituting , of which I. O. is yet a member , and the Ministers of mens making at the Vniversities , do now rejoyce in Transcripts , Copies of the Hebrew and Greek Texts , and Iota's and Points , and Tittles , and such like Toyes and Trappings , and fruitlesse furniture , as their chiefest Treasure , rich possession , and inheritance , which they glory and blesse themselves in , & for the whole world will not he deprived of , knowing that they must be deprived of all their worldly excellencies , if they come once to part with them ; and do cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that all Truth tumbles to the ground , if any jot and Tittle of their Original Texts , and Hebrew punctation fail , and they see no way to be delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred Truth , Ep. p. 25. ( in such wise as the Antichristian Churches did in darker times behind us , and do still in the dark places of their several habitations , count old mouldy Latine masse books , and new moulded Eng●ish Liturgies , Letanies , and Scottish Directories ) meliori ●ute , of a little better mould yet then the other two , a thousand fold before the best of which yet I prefer the Scripture Directory , whether in its Original Transcripts , or but Translations ) their chief spiritual treasure , crying out , that all true faith , worship , Church , Word of God , Religion , and all is like to be utterly lost , if these be taken away till the Remove of which Religion was never rightly found . Yet the Church of God , which is now the some that it was in substance , before any Scripture at all was , in rerum natura , both ever did , and doth still count Christ the Light and Life , of whom the Letter onely Testifies , her chiefest Ioy and Treasure , Luk. 1.57 . Joh. 8 : 56 and not the outward Text that doth but talk of him , much lesse the meer Accidental Adventitious parts thereof , quae possunt vel adesse vel abesse sine Scripturae interitu , which as the whole Scripture it self may be either present or absent from without the corruption of the substantial Truth or word . But whose Treasure the Scripture is , or is not , it 's little , yea nothing to I. O's purpose , to prove a non-mis transcription of the Scripture : we see I. O. and many millions more , make much of , and more ado , about every Tittle and lota of the Text , then they need do at this day , and yet , with a non obstante to all that , the variety of Lections are a thousand times twice told in Transcripts and Translations , and if we will believe I. O. p. 16. frequent insinuations of an infinite number more are yet to be collected . Arg. the Eighth , as to the old Testament in particular , is the care of Ezra and his companions , in restoring the Scripture to its purity , when it had met with the greatest tryal that ever it underwent in this world , considering the paucity of Copies then extant . Rep. Ezra and his companions care was as great no doubt , as mans could well be in that case , but ultra posse non est esse , they could do no more then they could do , as to the restoring the purity of the Scripture when corrupted ( and that 's Questionable , whether they restored it so perfectly , as not to leave out some Tittles or Iota's , yea and whole Books too , because they could not find them , witnesse all those forenamed whole Prophecies that are wanting ) but what if their endeavours had succeeded so , as to set all to rights as perfectly and exactly to a Tittle , as 't was at first giving our ▪ might it not as likely , and much more be corrupted , vitiated , altered , in points , Tittles , and Iota's , between Ezraes dayes , and now through the many Tumbles , Catastrophes , Revolutions , and greater changes of times and things , then that of the Babylonish Captivity that have happened , then in the dayes of its so long steady standing , while it was reserved within the bounds and confines of the Iewish Church onely , and yet here thou intimatest it to have been then exceedingly charged , depraved , and defective , or else how could Ezra and his fellows be said to restore it to its purity ? thou art very hard put to it for a proof of the present integrity , and purity of the Hebrew Text to a Tittle , that goest two thousand years backward , asserting that it was restored to its purity then , and thence concluding , that it stands as entire to a Tittle now , as then it did ; thou mightst as well have gone a little higher , and argued thus from before Ezra , ( viz. ) the Hebrew Text was at first written by the Holy Penmen , Moses , David , Isaiah , and the other Prophets truly , and according to the mind of the Spirit , therefore it stands so entihe 〈◊〉 this day ; but thou seeing ( for all the Iewes great care to keep it , thou makest such an Argument of ) it was much corrupted before Ezra , therefore beginnest thy account of its integrity to a Tittle no higher then him , in whose dayes thou deemest it was , de novo , most perfectly rectified , ad amussim , reckoning rashly ( as thou mostly dost ) and in no wise considering that thou hast no more , but much lesse security against its alteration from Ezra downward , to this day ( not knowing what heedlesse hands of carelesse Scribes it hath since come under ) then there was from Ezra ●●●ards , from the time of its most pure giying out , in which juncture yet it so fell out , that as that which they found of it in Ezras dayes , was by thy own confession much corrupted , so not a little of i● was lost altogether : But ( to knock this Argument more fully on the head ) thy self confessest that ( as great as the care of Ezra was , to restore the Text of the old Testament to its purity , and to compleat the Points ) it hath since then slipt so far out of order , that as to the Points according to the Iewes general faith , it received a great reviving , and restoration to their Right , and knowledge by the Massorites , when they had been much dis used , quoting R. Azarias in proof of it . p. 247.271 . and so hast routed thy own Argument with thy own hands . Arg. thy Ninth , is this the care of the Massorites from Ezras dayes , and downwards , to keep perfect and give an account of every syllable in the Scripture , citing Buxtorfius . Rep. Here thou supposest thou puttest in sufficient security for its non-alteration in a Tittle to this day , but of the Massorites care if I doubt , thy Word and Buxtorfs are not a ground to beget a divine faith in me , or another about it , who are bold in imposing your own Conjectures ; but if I own them to have been as carefull as thou conceivest them to be , yet in the dayes of those before Ezra who were as careful as these could be , it came not-off without losse , much lesse is it likely it did to this day , if those Massorites before Christ had been ten times more careful then they were , forasmuch as thou rendrest both Iewes and Papists , between which two sorts of men the Hebrew Text hath been reserved to this day , both of them generations of men so hardned in hatred against the truth , as not to be worthy to be counted faithful Trustees about the Scriptures , besides as I said to the Argument last above , thy self grantest the points so have been dis used , so as to have been rectified by the Tiberian Massorite , 600 years since Christ. Arg. thy Tenth , is the constant consent of all Copies in the world , so that on sundry learned men have observed there is not in the whole Mishna , Gemara , or either Talihud , any one place of Scripture found otherwise read , then it is now in our Copies . Reply 1. What a piece of Idem per Idem is this , wherein the self same thing that is to be proved , is Argumentatively urged in proof of it self ? the thing to be proved is , that there is a constant consent in all the Copies of the Hebrew Text in the world , so that there is no Copies read otherwise in any one place then ours , or that do vary from ours in one Letter , Apex , Tittle , or Iota ; to prove this the medium , I. O. uses is this , ( viz. ) the constant consent of all Copies in the world , without any variation in any one place ; I say here is not so good as ignotum per aeque ignotum , but Idem per Idem , the same proved by the same ; the thing affirmed evinced by affirming it ore again : Siccine di putant Academici nostrates ? many an acute Academian would answer no otherwise to this bald businesse , then by telling , the Doctor he is out , and forgets what he hath in hand , bidding him begin again , but such a Co●ntrified Russet-Rabby , as Dr. Featly sayes the Apron-Levites are , and such a Rustick Respondent as I am must submit , and take it as it comes , without much talk , lest I be talkt with for it , therefore I shall do it so much honour as to put it up , and to Reply to it , and so passe it by and passe on . 2. If there be and have been such an universal , constant consent of all copies in the world , and not so much as one Hebrew Copy read otherwise then in ours , in any one place of the Bible ( for so large are thy words , that thou art often fain to pinch them in again ) how is it that so many Copies are with Points , and so many wholly without any punctation at all ? or if thou say all pointed Copies are alike among themselves , and all unpointed ones are alike among themselves , how is it that thou , to the contradicting thy self in this place , confessest various readings in many other ? yet the very three next pages , ( viz. ) 178. 179. 183. are well nigh wholly spent in nothing but concessions , confessions , and acknowledgements , that there are and have been various lections in the very old Testament as well as the New , and there thou grantest , that some of those that are thou knowest no more of , ( viz. ) the various readings of the Eastern and Western Iewes , save that they first appeared ( it appears then there are some ) in Bombergius his Bible , professing thy present ignorance of them , and unwillingnesse for hasts sake , to enquire after them , yet wishing any that know ought of them to inform thee further ( but thou shouldst have informed thy self before thy rash and blind bold Assertion , and not say a thing positively , and then say , had I wist , and enquire when thou hast done whether it be so or no ; and moreover thou denyest not , but that more various lections then yet thou knowest , may be gathered out of ancient Copies of credit and esteem ; And thou instances in particular , in those called the Keri and Ketib , which thou makest such a puzling of thy self about , up and down in thy Book , that thou vainly spendest one whole Chapter ( viz ) the last save one of thy second Treatise , to prove them to be of no moment , which yet when all 's done , are varieties from the first Manuscripts , at least ( nemine contradicente ) though how they fell out at first none knows , and thou guessest they were gathered by Ezra , p. 302. and grantest that they are the face and appearance of various lections , p. 304 and that they are no lesse in number then 840. in the Bible p. 296. and that thou art not able to satisfie thy self about the Original , and spring of all that variety that is in the Bible by reason of them , p. 301. and th●t unlesse ye should suppose ; ( which yet thou seemest not to dare to do ) that the word was so received fo●m God , as to make both necessary not knowing the true cause of this variety , or difference , between the Scription , which is in the Love and the Lection which is in the margin ye have nothing to blame but your own ignorance , 〈◊〉 being not the onely case , ( and I confess thou speakest the Truth in that ) wherein ye have reason so to do ; p. 30● . all which , notwithstanding 1-st the consideration of this To Keri , and To Ketib , or vast and numerous variety of different Scriptions , and Lections which are welny in thousands of words , whereof some of them in the margin are supposed to have stood sometimes in the line , being most groundedly conjectured to be no other then meer Critical amendment , of the Iewes , should , together with the supposition and suspicion that is now begotten in the minds of many learned ones , impeach that security which thou supposest at least thou hast of the mind of God truly represented to thee in thy crooked Copyes , and so a door be opened ( as it is already not more to curious pragmatical wits , then plain , honest , Truth telling , downright dealing , upright - hearted , light loving souls , to overturn this ticklish foundation , and all that thy simply supposed certainty of a true entire , and to a Tittle exact conformity of this Hebrew Text of Scripture , with that which was pen'd by immediate motion , p. 308. and so seem to der●gate from the universality of this rash hasty Assertion , concerning the preservation of the Original Copies thereof to this hour , in every Point , Tittle , and Iota , 296. thou bestirrest thy self what thou canst thorough the whole Chapter aforesaid , in vindication of the said universality and verity of thy Arch Assertion by diminishing this vast variation that is in the Keri and Ketib , from the first manuscripts , into a very little matter , too vain to be at all counted upon , as a various lection they are of so small weight and importance ; though I must here tell thee . I. O. that of as small moment and importance as thou makest both these of Keri and Ketib , as well as all the other varieties that thy self are sain to confesse to , ( viz. ) those of Ben Asher , and Ben Nepthali , those of the Oriental and Occidental Iewes , those called correctio Scribarum , or the amendment in 18 places of some sma●l Apiculi ( as thou diminutively stilest them to salve the credit of thy exquisitely crude expression of thy self often by the Term of Apices , and every Apex &c. p. 27.317 . ) and those called Ablatio Scribarum , or a note of the Redundancy of Vau in five places , O thou that art tossed to and fro , and yet thou seemest with the superstitious Iewes to hold a Copy to ' e corrupted , or prophaned , if but one letter be but wanting or redundant sometimes , ( viz. ) p. 170. ) yet the least of all these are of weight and importance enough ( for all thy summary saying of them all together , p. 13.14 . they are varieties in things of lesse , indeed of no importance ) to knock thy principal position on the head , and ( howbeit thou sayest , not in the least p. 181. ) in the least , at least , to Impair the Truth o thy Arch Assertion that every Tittle and Letter of the outward Text ( which thou till stilest the word of God ) remaines in the Copies preserved by the merciful providence of God for the use of his Church to this day ; and I must tell thee moreover , that the more thou stirrest in defence of the universal verity of that thy unwarrantable and utterly untrue Assertion , the more it stinks and that rankly too , not onely of unreasonable rashnesse , and Real falshood , but also of a meer Diotrephetically impudent and impositively prating Spirit in thy self , that rather then recant one rashly assented absurdity , will run into a thousand , to offer so peremptorily to persist in t , unlesse thou couldst speak more to the purpose then thou yet hast done , or ever art like to do in proof thereof , in that universality , rigidity , and strictnesse wherein thou statest it . And as to those of the Keri and Ketib in particular the utmost thou sayest in all that Chapter wherein thou art wholly taken up about them whereby to refell the force of what falls heavily on thy Arch Assertion thence from by such as urge it , to the evincing of variety of Lections from , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or primitive Text , is as strong as stubble it self to stand against it , with ; and of no more force then foam and fro●b to resell it . For fi●st p. 297. thou sayest all the difference in these words , that is the 840. words of the Keri and Ketib , is in the Consonants , not at all in the vowels . Rep. In which saying thou givest thy whole cause , for if there be little lesse then a thousand words now in the Hebrew Text , differing in the Transcripts , in their Consonants from what they were , as written in the first Manuscripts , what need any more to prove against thee , that there are various Lections , and that in more then in Tittles , Iota's , Vowels , Accents , Points , and Apices ( in the least of which yet if variation be proved , it disproves the universality and verity of thy great Assertion of Identity to a Tittle ) and what need the Authors of that insinuation ( over whom thou crowest upon thy own dunghill , and triumphest before thy time , p. 319. ) produce the least Testimony ( as thou falsly affirmest they cannot ) that there hath been in the world some Copy of the Bible differing ( mark thy words ) in the least from those we now enjoy , or that those ye have are corrupted ? thou I. O. provest it against thy self to their hands ; yea that the Consonants themselves are greater matters then Points and Apices , and of more importance with thy self is intimated by thee , p. 317. in the eye of any ordinary Reader a yet thou thy self assertest , p. 297. that 840. words are found different from what they were at first writing , in no lesse then the very Consonants , what need we then any further witnesse , since we our selves have so much confessed out of thy own mouth , or rather extant under thy own hand ? And what need the Authors of this insinuation prove their Assertion in answer to thy confident universal Challenge of them so to do , p. 317. saying , let them prove that there was ever in the world any other Copy of the Bible differing in any one word from those that we now enjoy Tu dicis , thy self I. O. sayest it , that there are differences from the fi●st Copies , that were writ●by the inspi el Authors , and that of many sorts , what needst-thou say let them produce one Testimony , one Author of credit , Iew or Christian , that can or doth , 〈◊〉 did speak one word to this purpose , let them direct us to any relike , any monument , any kind of remembrance of them , and not put us off with weak conjectures , upon the signification of one or two words , and it shall be of weight with us , is it meet that a matter of so huge importance , called into Question by none but themselves , should be cast and determined by their conjectures ? doth they think men will part with the possession of Truth upon so easie Terms , that they will be cast from their inheritance by divination ? Bona verba quaeso , Possession of any thing that 's counted an inheritance , I confesse is eleven points of twelve , and they that are in it commonly count that Truth and Right is on their side right or wrong , and the more ado and harder task they have , who have to do with them to storm them out , but as the case here stands , it 's no great matter , sith I. O. the possessour fights for us against himself . Art thou an Author of credit thy self I. O. whose Testimony may be taken for Truth ? wilt thou believe thy self if not others ? I confesse as thou sayest p. 102. of the Romane Harlot , the common fate of lyars hath so befallen her , for lying mostly in many things she professeth , that she deserves not to be believed when she talks the Truth , p. 225. So I may say of thee , though I believe thee when thou speakest truth , yet thou utterest so many untruths , that thou scarcely deservest to be believed when thou tellest the Truth : but yet if thou be of any credit with thy self , and thou wilt but take thy own word , then we are well enough , and have wherewith to answer thy challenge , having thy self in the self same Book we have here to do with , speaking more then one word at least , and that 's enough ( ad bominem ) to this purpose , viz. that there was in the world a Copy of the Bible different from what we now enjoy in one word at least ( and that 's in more then Tittles , which thou , who art Callidus , more then Callidus in thy Re frigida contendest for ) sith the Keri and Ketib , those 840. words which are confest by thee to vary in their Consonants , from what they should be written with , if what is in the margin were in the line , are confest by thee not to have been so from the beginning , which if not , then , there was once a Copy different from what we now enjoy , but of this thou wilt hear more from us by and by . Secondly , p. 300. thou sayest , the difference in the sense taken in the whole context , is upon the matter very little , or none at all ; at least each word both that in the margin , & that in the line yield a sense agreeable to the Analogy of faith . Rep. Here thou mendest thy bad cause as well as one can well do , that makes it two-fold worse then 't was before ; for if there be welnigh a thousand words , not onely different in Consonants ( which is greater then that of Tittles ) but also such as makes the least difference in the sense of the Spirit , which ( how many so e're the Text may bear ) is acknowledged by all ( but your selves that make many ) to be but one alone ever to one word or place , then thou thy self overturnest that certainty and Identity of not onely the Text it self thou so loudly contendest for , but also , in some measure , of the Truth it self contained therein , which we say is eternally entire , let the Text run which way it will ; but thou here art forced to confesse , that in the Keri and Ketib , there 's not onely a variation in words , but also thereby in the very sense it self . And though thou wouldst fain mend it when thou hast done , by mincing the matter , making as if the Context considered , the difference in the sense is upon the matter very little , and agreeable , either way to the Analogy of faith ( as ye often speak , whereby if not blinded ye might see , how , for all ye call the Scripture your Rule of Faith , yet ye more serne the Scripture into the sense of a suitablenesse to your modern devised model of faith still , then suit and model your faith according to the true sense of the Spirit and mind of Christ in the Scripture ) yet that 's a meer false seeth and ●●gment of thy own , for in some places there arises from the Keri and Ketib a very vast variety , not to say clear contrariety in the sense ; such as , if the Context be consulted with , is consistent with the faith but one way onely , and not the other ; and sith thou puttest it to the tryall , by the variety of those two words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are the same in sound , yet most distinct in their significations , and so , of all the varieties that are of this kind , seeming to thee of the greatest importance ; of which it is observable that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whose signification is [ not ] is fourteen or fifteen times put in the Text or line instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whose signification is [ to him or it ] which is set in the margin : I am willing to be tryed by that very variety that is of thy own naming the better to satisfie thee . And whereas thou sayest , that though these seem contrary one to the other , yet wherever this falls out , a sense agreeable to the Analogy of faith ariseth fairly from either word , instancing in some places picke out by thee for thy own purpose : I say if it do hold , it s not worth a pin , or point , to the proof of what thou sayest , if in any one of those fourteen or fifteen places it appear to the contrary ; and that it does , let me be so bold ( fith thou instancest in two that are fittest for thee ) to instance but one that , makes against thee , and then , I shall trouble my self no more with thy Keri and Ketib , which would make one , if not sick , yet at least sorry , for thee to see how sorrily thou shifts by it : Isa. 9.3 . thou hast multiplyed the Nation , not encreased the joy , say the Ketib , or word in the Text , but the Keri or word in the Margin is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to it ] which marginal Reading ( though Translators following the mistake of the mis-transcribers keep to the Ketib ) is undoubtedly the true and onely sense of the Spirit , for the reading in the line , as it is in both Transcripts and Translation , is ( considered with the Context ) a piece of meer non-sensicall contradiction ; thou hast encreased the Nation , not encreased the Ioy , they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest , as men rejoyce when they divide the spoil ; what a jarre does the word [ not encreased the Ioy ] make in the sense of that verse ; yea it makes it meet confusion and contradiction , to say the joy is not enlarged , and yet it is enlarged like to that of men that rejoyce in harvest , and at the dividing of the spoil ; but read it by the Keri 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to it ] thus , ( viz ) thou hast multiplyed the Nation , thou hast encreased joy to it , or its joy , they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest , as men rejoyce when they divide the spoil ; and then there 's no discord in the sound , but it s all sweetly sutable and harmonious , and agreeable to the Analogy of the true faith also . Arg. thy Eleventh is , The security we have that no mistakes were voluntarily or negligently brought into the Text , before the coming of our Saviour , who was to declare all things , in that he not once reproves the Iewes ●n that Account , when yet for their false glosses on the word be spares them not . And this Argument is urged o're again p. 316 interrogatively thus , ( viz. ) can it be once imagined , that there should be at that time such notorious varieties in the Copies of the Scripture through the negligence of that Church , and yet afterword neither our Saviour nor his Apostles take the least notice of it , yea doth not our Saviour himself affirm of the word that was then among them ( Scripture with thee ) that not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , should passe away or perish ? Rep. 1. Leave calling Christ thy Saviour , ( as thou often dost ) till thou witnesse thy self saved by his grace from thy being a servant to sin , as thou art so long as thou committest it , or dost either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or which is all one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and commit it thou dost and must while thou livest , while thou believest no perfect remission , or full freedom from the commission of it in this life ; and must in the life to come too , while thou believest no purging there neither ; for thy calling him thy Saviour while thou art thus in thy sin , is no more accepted of him , then when thou callest him Lord , Lord , yet dost not the things that he sayes , and that is as little as if thou saidst nothing . 2. Varieties and mistakes might befall the Scriptures , thy self elsewhere confessest , p. 167 , 168 , 169. through the invincible infirmity of mens failings and fallibility in such a work as transcribing the best things , and through meer weaknesse , when through neither wilfulnesse , nor negligence , nor unfaithfulnesse , and so passe as unreproved , as they are in that case unreprovable . 3. There might be mistakes of that nature through the Scribes wilfulness and negligence , perverting Scripture , and those reproved by Christ too , and his Apostles also , and thou ne'r the wiser , there being many things truely , that Iesus did and spake , that were never written in those Histories of him ye have , and that his Apostles did , and spake , that are not written by Luke in the Acts , nor in their Epistles , the which if they should be written every one , the world it self would not be able to contain them , among which , that such a reproof was not one , is more then thou knowest ; though thou wilt vent thy verdict very vainly ond positively still at a venture . 4. If there were not one mistake or corruption through mis-translation in the Scripture before Christs time , hath there not been time enough for some sailing to fall out in it , since that time which is 1600 , years since , in some one Point , Apex , Accent , Tittle , or Iota ? what security hast thou against such a thing , not knowing , but as thou wilt be guessing , and thinking , what wicked , careless , and unskilful hands it hath since past under ; or rather knowing , that by Iewes and Papists it hath been much vitiated . 5. Christ and his Apostles , in their often quoting Scripture out of the Old Testament , kept to the substance and sense of the words , not alwayes to the Text , in totidem verbis , verbatim , or to a Tittle , Isa. 42.1 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. Rom. 11. Rom. 15.16 . which shews that they minded the substance of the matter , and not as ye do the empty figure of the outward Letter in every trivial Tittle , Point , and Iota of it . 6. However , I do not understand this Argument any more then thou that thou speakest on , p. 269. Christ reproved no such mistakes as mis-transcribing the Scriptures , through wilfulnesse or negligence 1600 years since , therefore it is not mis-transcribed in one Point , Apex , Iot , or Tittle , to this very day . Arg. thy Twelfth is this , ( viz. ) after Christ the watchfulnesse which the two Nations of Iewes and Christians had alwaies upon one another , with sundry things of like importance to this purpose , which might he insisted upon . Rep. Here 's the Rereward of the whole foregoing Regiment , and Rout of Red coat reasons , that make a mighty shew a great way off , as they lye all together in Leagure against the Truth ; so that one would take them as first glance to be of some great worth or weight to the matter in hand , but when one beholds them nigher hand , behold they are a parcell of Ragged , Torn , Thred bare Tatterdimallions , that are scarce able well to stand on their legs they are so weak and wanting . And as for this last poor , wretched , miserable blind and naked Argument , that marches in the Rear , it is so lame , and tired , and decrepid , and halts so pitifully after his fellows , that it 's in a manner pity to meddle with it , for what importance soever I. O. judges it to be of , I see it's importance to be so little to his purpose , as to evince every Tittle of his transcribed Text to be as true as at first writing , that it can scarce well carry it self clear away , much lesse import any great matter of danger , or do any considerable execution toward the offending of the Truth here defended , or in defence and vindication of I. O's famously false Assertion of the entirenesse of the outward Text of the Scripture to this day , in every Word , Letter , Consonant , Vowel , Point , Apex , Tittle , and Iota , as 't was at first given out by the hands of the inspired penmen of it ; that though more then need might soon be replyed against it , yet I shall say nothing to it at all , but make it a passe , and let it even go quietly again from whence it comes . CHAP. VI. THus far as to I O's twelve Arguments , the rest of his proof of the entirenesse of his Text is made up of sundry sorts of considerations , Weak Wottings , and Pidling Putations : all which kind of miscellaneous munition , I shall here give the Reader an Account of , together with some such observations and animadversions , as it 's meet should be made thereof ; and then come to expostulate with I. O. about the whole case in hand , and to set some of our surer grounded [ Shall we thinks ] against silly shallow [ Shall we thinks ] as he infers , & winds up his crazy conclusion withall , and leave all that read them to their liberty to think of them what they please . Such brittle businesses , such starch , straw , and slubbly stuffe as I. O. stiffens and strengthens his strict Assertion with a parte ante , and his above named Body of Arguments , for the certainty and infallibility of the right writing of every Tittle and Iota of the Text of this day , according to the first immediate writing thereof from God , in both the Old Testament and the New , is as followes . I. O. For the first Transcribers of the Original Copies , and those who in succeeding Ages have done the like work from them , whereby they have been propagated and continued down to us , in a subserviency to the Providence and Promise of God , we say not ; as is vainly charged by Morinus , and Capell●s , that they were all or any of them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , infallible and divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for 〈◊〉 in any thing to mistake . Rep. If ye can't say that , that they were infallible and divinely inspired in their work , ye can say nothing at all , that at all reaches your purpose , or pretended proof of your so absolutely Asserted certainty and infallibility of the entirenesse of your Transcribed Text , and answerablenesse of it 〈◊〉 every Tittle and Iota to the Original Text of the Penmen , which answerablenesse if ye prove not , and that infallibly too , and by more then your own meer guesses and conjectures , your universal positive Assertion can ap●●ar to be no more then a supposition , and then , vobis ipsis cons●●entibus ; your own selves acknowledging no lesse , you have no sound assurance what ground ye stand on ; for the stresse of all sacred Truth is by I. O. put upon the true Transcription or mis-transcription of the Greek and Hebrew Text , which if not entire to a Tittle and Iota , p. 17.18 , 19. upon any corruption supposed in the writing ( and that may very well ( not to say must be supposed ) if all the Transcribers , even the first as well as the latter , cannot be supposed to be as infallibly guided in Transcribing , as the holy men were in the first writing ) there is no means of rectifying , or recovering , or of discovering , or determining , or judging of Truth any other way : And so thou givest upon a matter thy whole cause , in granting the whole Series of Transcribers , and Race of writers to this day , to be but fallibly guided ; and thy most perfect , infallible , stable ; and to a Tittle true Touch-stone , Rule , Standard , Foundation falls all to the ground , as a mere falible , uncertain , questionable Basis to build so mighty a bulk upon , as thou dost ; according to not others knowledge onely , but also thy own acknowledgements and confessions . I. O. Religious care and diligence in their work , with a due Reverence of him , with whom they had to do , is all we ascribe unto them . Not to acknowledge these freely in them , without clear and unquestionable Evidence to the contrary , is high uncharitablenesse , impiety , and ingratitude . This care and diligence we say , in a subserviency to the Promise and Providence of God , hath produced the effect contended for . Nor is any thing further necessary thereunto . On this account to argue ( as some do ) from the miscarriages and mistakes of men , their Oscitancy and negligence in transcribing the old Heathen Authors , Homer , Aristotle , Tully , we think it not tollerable in a Christian , or any one that hath the least sense of the nature and importance of the Word , or care of God towards his Church , Shall we think that men who wrote out Books , wherein themselves and others were no more concerned , then it is possible for men to be in the writings of the Persons mentioned , and others like them , had as much reason to be careful and diligent in that they did , as those who knew and considered that every Letter and Tittle that they were Transcribing , was part of the Word of the great God , wherein the eternal concerament of their own souls , and the Souls of others did lye . Certainly whatever may be looked for from the Religious care and diligence of men , lying under a loving and careful Aspect from the Promise and Providence of God , may be justly expected from them who undertook that work . Rep. Of the loving and careful Aspect , and Promise and Providence of God , and how little he stands by any promise engaged , to preserve outward Tittles ( as thou ●atlest ) I have spoken not a little before : but if that were as true as thou sayest it is , and as it is indeed most false that God were so engaged in order to the safe guarding his word and Church , to save every Tittle of your Priests Transcribed Texts , does not his love and care of his word and Church as strictly call for his careful Aspect over the peoples translated Texts , and bind him in his providence ( according to the supposed promise ) to watch over and direct the Translators in Translating for the use of his Church , but few of which can Read your Original Texts , as well as the Transcribers in Transcribing ? which Translators if they happen to be one the Church , ( sa●ing that she must take some of her Clergies words for infallible Truth , and as the sole foundation of her divine forth about the integrity of the Text ) is out also , and hath nothing but uncertainty it self , even the uncertain fallible conjectures of ( spiritually ) unskilful Scholars to trust to , about the foundation of her salvation . Neverthelesse thou wilt by no means allow that the Translators lay under the same loving Aspect , who had as much to do with God , and as religious a care and diligence in their work , as Transcribers had in theirs , with a due Reverence of him with whom they had to do ; yea not to acknowledge these freely in them ( which is the utmost thou darest ascribe to the others ) without clear and unquestionable Evidence to the contrary , is as high uncharitablenesse and ingratitude ( by how much their pains was the greater of the two ) as not to acknowledge the same in the Transcribers : the care and diligence of which said Translators yet , who must be supposed to be as much in a subserviency to that thy supposed promise and providence of God ( I say ) hath no more produced the effect thou contendest for , ( i. e ) the entire agreement of their Copies to a Tittle with the first Originals , thou that of the Transcribers hath done , which hath not produced the said effect so exactly as thou dreamest . It is enough to make a wise man wonder ( but that Sapiens miratur ●ibil , because he expects no other then solly to proceed from the foolish wisemen of this world ) to see how thou settest thy Transcribers up on high , yet grantest them not to be infallibly guided of God neither who , if he had no higher way to expresse his love to his word and Church , then by saving every Tittle of thy Transcripts from alteration or corruption , could as easily have guided the Transcribers infallibly as fallibly , and more easily too , since his Spirit guides none fallibly so far as I know ) and statest thy Transcribers under the loving and careful Aspect , promise and providence of God , in all they did in their work about thy Greek and Hebrew Copies , from whom yet no more may be expected justly then from Translators in the undertaking of their work ; for Translators did consider what every Letter and Tittle that they were Translating was , as well as Transcribers did , what every Letter and Tittle and Iota was , they were Transcribing , and to argue them to be as Oscitant , Neglective , and mis-carrying , and mistaking , as those that translated Heathen Authors is as intolerable ( ad ●ominem ) I speak this , for else I own it , tolerable enough so to argue , of both Transcribers and Translato●s of Scripture , for such as Transcribed and Translated Heathen Authors and their work as well as they could , and such as Transcribed and Translated Scripture could do no more , and were , thy self confessing , no more infallible nor infallibly guided then they , onely a kind of care in them , and in God over them , which amounts not to his special spiritual guidance thou tellest ● ) I say as intollerable as thou sillyly sayest it would be to argue from the ●citancy , and Negligence , miscarriages and mistakes of Transcribers of Heathen Authors , to the like in the Scripture Transcribers . But as for Translators thou pullest them down , and depressest them into a condition of as great carelesness and negligence , and under as carelesse neglect of God , toward , them in their work , as thou statedst the other in great care and diligence and under a careful Aspect and providence of God towards them in theirs ; saying on this wise , p. 319. of Translators ( viz. ) the Translators own indivertency , negligence , ignorance ( for the wisest seenetial ) is one among i●merable other Reasons to be assigned of their variations from the Original ; as if there were neither inadvertency , negligence , nor ignorance in Transcribers , but they , without being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were so wise as to see all , and had nothing but all 〈◊〉 diligence , and no such weaknesses Translators had . And again , p. 347. of the Syriak Translation on this wise ; It was made 〈◊〉 get I know neither when , nor by whom , in sundry places following another corrupt Translation , having passed through the hands of men ignorant ( thou knowest who they were , yet callest them ignorant ) and suspicious against whose , frauds and folly ye have no relief , and thou questionest whether it may be esteemed of any great use or importance , as to the end enquired after : As if the self same might not be said of thy Transcription as if thou knewest exactly when , and by whom they were made , and that they followed 〈◊〉 corrupt Copies in any places but all pure ones , and were known to thee to have past thorough the hands of men neither ignorant nor suspicious , as ●if thou hadst all the relief and 〈◊〉 in the world of all thy Transcribers integrity and honesty from Ezra and from Christ to this very day , and that they were men that had neither Fraud nor Holly , whereas most if not all 〈…〉 of the Hebrew Copies have been made by the Iewes , against whom when 〈…〉 thy turn in any point so to do , thou talkest as if there were nothing in the world but 〈◊〉 , iniquity , and , as to the scriptures , fraud and jolly felt in the very 〈◊〉 of them and as if it were not to be questioned , but that al the Copier that thou are pleased to esteem 〈◊〉 ( and no other ) were 〈…〉 to be esteemed of so great 〈…〉 as to be canonized , as the 〈…〉 to the whole world , which is the end of the Transcribed Copies of the Originals now enquired after . And again , p. 234 of the Chaldee Paraphrase this , ( viz. ) seeing it hath 〈◊〉 under any peculiar care , and merciful providence of God , whether innumerable faults and 〈◊〉 as it happened , with the 〈◊〉 , may not be got into it , who can tell as if thou couldst tell what and which Transcriptions and Translations have lain under that thy so 〈◊〉 on loving , Aspect , peculiar care , and merciful providence of God , so as to be exempted from faults and errou●s , besides the primitive Copies , and which have not ; who told thee , but thy own Rambling , Roving , and Conjectural fancy that these have and those have not ? yet beu quam praecoci ingenie , how hastily dost thou both take and give it out for granted here , that such , namely the Chaldee Paraphrase , and the Septuagint Translations God had no regard to help the Translators in , and as for some and those sundry Transcriptions too of Original Copies when they like thee not , and are such as are not Concordane with thy favour'd darlings ; how dost thou set them at thy heels , p. 199. 201. as corrupt novell Transcripts , though of two or three hundred years , or elder , and as Consonant , for ought thou knowest by any thing , but Tradition , to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are not now in the world , for thee or any to correct or try by , as some thou so much settest by ? but the Vulgar Copy ye use thou callest ( by Tradition onely received from thy Forefathers , and so upon no truely divine but humane account , if it be the Truth ) the publike possession of many generations , and that which upon the Invention of the Art of Printing was in actual Authority throughout the world , with them that used and understood that language ( an implicitly confident , broad , blind , bold speech , yet like thy self ) as far as any thing appears to the contrary ( that was well put in however , if thou hadst added ( to I. O. ) at the end of it ) yea this thou very imperiously and impositively givest the word of Command for the Canonizing and Authorizing of , saying let that passe then for the Standard which is confessedly ( in foro privatae tuae phantasiae saltum ) its right and due . Thus King of Babylon-like among men , so I. O. majestically behaves himself among the many Transcribed and Translated Copies of the Scripture ; Authorizing and Dis - Franchising which he pleases , and as the other with persons , so I. O. with patterns of the Text , patronizes as he lifts , Dan 5.19 . which he will he slayes , which he will he keeps alive , which he will he sets up , and which he will he puts down ; and if he be askt why this and not that is under Gods careful Aspect ? Stat pro ratione voluntas . 3. And whereas thou sayest that the Transcribers care and diligence in subserviency to Gods promise and providence hath produced that effect thou contendest for , ( viz. ) the entirenesse of the Text to a Tittle at 't was at first , dost thou not say this as thou dost twenty things more , meerly on thy own head ? and if that have produced that effect , why doth not the same cause produce the same effect in all Transcribers , as well as such onely whose work thou settest the Crown on ? and in Translators as well as Transcribers ? seeing thou hast no more security of the ability , faithfulnesse , honesty , care , and diligence , of such whose Transcriptions thou talkest up , then of such whose Transcribed and Translated Copies thou talkest down , as altered , varying from the first Originals , and apparently corrupt ; neither canst thou charge the one more then I can the other justly ( though unjustly thou wilt be doing so ) with inadvertency , carelesness , and negligence , they being all alike unknown to each of us ; yet thou ownest the Transcriptions of some such as spurious by superfluity , and redundancy of unnecessary , and deficiency of necessary words , as corrupt , p. 200.201 . and such like ; All which proves against thee variety in Copies too ( but that thou wilt not see it ) in Points , Tittles , and Iota's at least which variety ( if any at all ) cannot be in lesse matters then these . 4. And though thou sayest not any thing further then the said Religions care and diligence of Scribes is necessary to the said effect of Identity with the first Copy to every Iota and Tittle , without infallible guidance from Gods Spirit , dost thou say that in earnest ? If thou dost , I say in earnest , thou well knowest not what thou sayest ; for let there be never so much honesty fidelity , care , and diligence used , yet unlesse there be an infallible guidance , or writing by that immediate inspiration , which thou ascribest to the holy penmen but denyest and darest nor ascribe to thy first Transcribers , the mind and , will of God ( if I. O. be to be believed when he speaks against himself ) is not represented to thee ( as thou sayest it is , p. 153. ) without the least interveniency of such mediums and waies as were capable to give change or alteration to the least Iota or Syllable , without the least mixture or interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibility , ( as thou sayest it is : p. 10. ) for in the very next words p. 10.11 . thou utterest enough to the confutation of thy self in this , while , ( according to thy wonted manner of running round as one borrendo percussus Scotomate ) thou sayest the wisdom , truth , integrity , knowledge , and memory of the best of all men , is obnoxious to fallibility , and consequently ( say I ) capable to give change in the most careful Transcription that can be made by mans hands , that is uninspired , in much more then the least Iota or Syllable ; thus art thou contrary to thy self still . 5. But I say for all thy reasonlesse rounds , and self contradictory conceits , more then Transcribers care and diligence is necessary thereunto , ( i.e. ) to the producing of Copies infallibly conformable in every Tittle , Iota , and Point to those of the first Penmen , and to the begetting of the divine faith ( which is more then meer humane fallible perswasion ) that thou oughst to have about the soundnesse , universal incorruption , certainty , integrity , invariablenesse and infallibility of that thou callest thy foundation , even that immediate manutenentia Dei , or undeceivable direction and divine inspiration of God , which if it be wanting ( as thou confessest it was from the first to the last of thy Transcribers ) such is the weaknesse of men , where never so much carefulnesse is in Transcribing of Books , that there may be miscarriages and mistakes , which if , there be in the least Iota or Syllable , it 's great enough to lay thy universal grand Assertion to the ground , and all thy proof of it from the foresaid care and diligence will prove not worth a pin to thy purpose . But alas what do I talk of weaknesse , where either the leading of the Spirit of God is wanting , or a willingnesse in men to be led by the holy Spirit , as it is in all that assert ( as thou dost ) his infallible guidance to be gone out of the world in these dayes ; there 's not onely much weaknesse to such a weighty work as thou makest the Transcribing the Scripture to be , but ( as thou sayest , p. 104. so I in this case about the Scriptures ) so much vanity , foolishnesse , falsenesse , unfaithfulnesse , negligence , ignorance , and sloth , love of money ( for which many write at others appointment , being well paid for their plains ) more then of the matters they are writing , as well in Scribes as Printers of the very Scripture it self , carelesnesse , adding , detracting , unsuitablenesse of their Spirits , and minds to spiritual things , losse of all remembrance of what they are , and what they do , &c. that I can give very little credit to what I have nothing but the Authority , Ability , Integrity , Wisdom , Knowledge , Truth , Memory , Care and Diligence of such to rely upon for , without evidence of their being divinely and infallibly guided , which guidance thou denyest to thy Scribes ; nor can any wise man groundedly believe any other , but that the Books of Scripture passing through the hands of many such Transcribers , have upon them the marks of their neglects , ignorance , and sloth , and have had ( as hard of belief as thou seemest to be of this ; p. 206. ) the fate of other books . Yea I. O. let me but ask thee this , Is that faith thou hast that thy Greek and Hebrew Copies are to a Tittle so uncorrupted ( as thou contendest ) a divine faith or a fallible perswasion onely ? if the Latter it 's not worth , a figge , if thou have no bettr faith then so , and art not more infallibly assured then so of the infallibility of that which thou callest thy most perfect Rule , and infallible foundation : If the former what is it must beget this divine faith in this thing , that there 's not a Point nor Tittle varying in thy now Canon standard or adored Copy from the first Copy of the Text that ever was ? will thy vain confidence , hopes , conjectures , good conceits of thou knowest not what Scribes , that wrote thou knowest not when , give thee such a faith or the Traditions and Authority and Testimony of honest men , saying so and so , downward for many generations ? or some infallible ground of certainty , that they were guided to write every word by divine inspiration ? Not the first , for thou utterly disclaimest that , as no ground of divine faith about the Scriptures , by saying thus , p. 105. if numbers of men may be allowed to speak , we may have a Traditional Testimony given to the blasphemous figments of the Alcoran . But the constant Tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober , from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of hell for the Mahometans , and thus , p. 114.115 . though I should grant , that the Apostles and penmen of the Scripture , were persons of the greatest industry , honesty , integrity , faithfulnesse , holinesse , that ever lived in the world ( as they were ) and that they wrote nothing but what themselves had assurance of , as what men by their senses of seeing and hearing , are able to attain ; yet such a knowledge and assurance is not a sufficient foundation for the faith of the Church of God , if they received not every word by inspiration , and that evidencing it self unto us otherwise then by the Authority of their integrity , it can be no foundation for us to build our faith upon . Not the latter , for thou disclaimest that , and darest not ascribe any such thing as infallible guidance , or divine inspiration to thy Trustee Transcribers : so where the divine faith about the firmnesse of thy foundation it self stands founded , and bottom'd unlesse it be in the bottomlesse pit it self of thy own fancy , he must have more Rope to fathom with then I have , that will ever find . Wilt thou not then I. O. say of the first Transcribers of the Scriptures , that the were infallible and divinely inspired ? ( I do not say thou dost ill in refusing so to say , nay rather thou dost very well , and somewhat honestly and ingenuously in that , for indeed we cannot tell , nor say safely that they were so ) but art thou then freely willing in very deed to yeild it to us that they were fallible , and that 't was not impossible for them to mistake ? This grant of thine , we are as free to accept of as thou art to give it , and make good use of it too , not so much against as for thy self ( viz. ) to shew and instruct thee from thence , that there 's rottennesse at the very root of all your Religion , and a fearful flaw of fallibility that is in the very foundation of your faith and believing , in which thou sayest ye are built on the writings of the Prophets and Apostles , T. 1. c. 2 S. 4 , that so ye may ( which is the worst that we wish you ) come to be better built on a firmer foundation , and both you and your foundation and faith and all may stand fast , and never ( as now ye must do ) fall any more from thenceforth for ever ; even the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets it self , which was not their writings , for these were not their foundation , nor were given to be ours ; for if they were , then they had been built upon themselves , and we are to be upon them , which is absurd to say , for neither their own preachings nor writings were their own foundation which they were built on , nor are we to build onely upon them , but both they and we upon that which all holy men , were built on from the beginning , before any writing was at all , ( viz. ) Christ Iesus the light , the corner stone which the blind builders refuse , on whom whoever builds and believes , if he never come to read one Tittle of any outward writing , shall assuredly never be ashamed . In this one grant then thou hast given both the Qua. and all others thou contendest with no lesse then the very cause thou contendest for ( viz. ) that the Scripture or Letter is infallibly the infallible word of God , and every Letter , Tittle , and Iota of it also ; one Iot or Tittle of which can no sooner fail , then Heaven and Earth can passe away , and that every Iota and Tittle that was in the outward Letter as at first given forth from God by inspiration , is preserved to this very day without corruption , and remains in the Copies preserved till now for the use of his Church : that the whole Scripture entire as given out from God without any losse is preserved in the Original Copies yet remaining , yea in them all is every Letter and Tittle : For this is the cause thou hast taken in hand , in which thou wilt find , when once thou awakest , that thou hast hold on the wrong end of the staffe , and these , and much more of the like sort are thy own words and absolute assertions about it , up and down in thy Book , T. 1. c. 1. S. 14. T. 12. e. 2. S. 7. 9. which if they cannot be made good ( so high thou runnest ) but that there be any corruption to be supposed in your present Original Copies and various Lections ( though it be granted by Capellus and others , that the saving Doctrine remaines sound as to matters of moment ) yet this shall not satisfie nor afford thee relief enough , but thou wilt needs give up all thy cause , as lost ( even further then thy own opponents would have thee ) confessing and professing that all your Doctrine is corrupt , not continuing entire , no means of its discovery , nor of its recovery from a lost condition , no means of rectifying it , or determining any thing about it , see T. 1. c. 1. S. 16.17 . yea so as to yeild your selves to be at such a losse as not to know what ground ye stand on : yea in thy Dedicatory Epistle , pag. 25. lay but these two together , first that the Points are the invention of the Tiberian Massorites , which by all thy proofs to the contrary thou leavest as uncertain as thou foundst it , and little lesse then yeild'st that it 's but uncertain 2 That its lawful to gather various Lections , &c. and then ( sayest thou ) for my part I must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tell me where I must stand , as not seeing any means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred Truth , and so thou goest on , desuing to be instructed by such as see through the de●adiations that are likely to ensue on these principles , as one that tremblest to think what will be the desperate consequences of imagining alterations in the Points , Tittles , and Iotaes of your Originals , Ep. ded . p. 19. now what the issue will be we leave to God , though some know it , yet thou are too weak to bear the sense of it without amazement , being bottomed no better then upon a quavering bogge , if it should be told thee , yet know it thou wilt when it comes to passe , or if thou canst bear it take it now . Fiat justuis aut pereat mundus , the issue ( as dreadfull as it seems to thee who a●t in fearlesse dangers of greater mischiefs , and but dangerless fears of this present object thou so startlest at ) will assuredly be no worse then this as I said above , ( viz. ) that while Theeves will fall out True men will come by their good again , & if all the Divines in the world be in such digladiations as to draw their daggers against each other about it yet the light , from which your whole Letter came , will be turned to , when the Letter is found to be but a fallible uncertain Rule , as falsified by mens mis-transcriptions and mis-translations , which light is certo certius , vera verius , if ought can be so , even no lesse then infallibility and certainty it self , and that very Equity and Truth it self , which the Letter teaches , and doth but tend to ; and for my part sink thou , and thy fearful fellows , boreling Priests and wrangling Lawyers , that live altogether on mens lusts , trespasses and sins , of which , when the world comes to the light , and by it to be led into love , honesty , and peace , as there will be no need , so it will be wiser then to be fooled into a feeding of you for feeding them in their fightings , I say sink ye whether ye will , and your Quick sandy foundadations together with you , till both your selves and them be swallowed up by that greater glory of the light it self , now arising again upon the world , though they will nor see it ; I know some that stand so fast in this juncture , wherein the old heaven and earth shakes in order to its removing , as to see thousands fall besides them , and thousands at their right hand , yet be out of fear of the fearful fall of the Hypocrites coming nigh them : And as it hath never repented me hitherto to see that people that were Priestbewildred , and hampered in Latine Letanies , English Liturgies , divine Scottish Directoryes , falling off from their Priests and Scribes to the search of Scriptures , so it will never repent either my self or many thousands more , that are turned to a true attendance to the light of Christ , having witnessed that weaknesse of the Letter it self to save the soules of men which the Letter it self also bears witnesse to , Rom. 8 2. to see men fall , according to the councel of the Scripture in that behalf , Gal. 5.16 . ( such a tall is in truth not from , but to the Scriptures ) from the Scripture it self to the holy Spirit . Neverthelesse , were I one that did close never so cordially with thee in thy cause about the Scripture , yet could I not commend , but most condemne the Course in which thou commend'st it to us , for , as if it were not forward enough te fall of it self , thou hastenest to handle it down with thy own hand writing , while thou grantest the very first Transcribers of the Scripture to be fallible , and also to have erred and failed , though it were but in Points , Tittles , and Iotaes , and in no lesse they could fail , if they fail'd at all ; for is they were fallible , and what they wrote were falsified in the least , then at least thy Foundation , which is no other then such Transcriptions , is so far false and fallible as they failed ; and so ( contrary to what thou sayest ) in the least at least it impairs the Truth of thy Arch-Assertion , that the whole Scripture , and every Tittle , and Letter , as given out from God , without any losse , is preserved , and remains entire and without Corruption in the Copies of the Originals yet remaining , for sure one Tittle , Letter , or Iota , a thousand to one , may ( if they mistook at all ) be either wanting or redundant ; and if they fail'd , who wrote immediately out of that which was first written by Inspiration , then those that Transcribed downwards , from that day to this , having none but imperfect Copies to write by , might likely fail , so as to make them more , rather then lesse imperfect , for Error minimus in principio , is ever major in medio maximus in fine , if the first or second stone stand never so little awry in any building , following that , it will swerve into more and more crookednesse towards the Top ; and so what Corruptions , Crookednesse , Alteration , Ablations , Additions , Variations from each other , in more then Tittles and Iotaes , there may be now in the Copies ye have , there being now no Autographaes to amend them by , but a bottomlesse pit and endlesse heap of uncertain Conjectures , Contradictions , Scoldings and Scottlings among the Scribes about it , Pro and Con , some saying one thing , some another , and the most part they know not what themselves , but as they think and hear from others , who knows save confident I. O. who seldom looks before he leaps , and so knocks the Nail on the head , as to hush all the hurries that are about it , and end the Controversie , and put it out of all doubt , so far as his helplesse Hammer will do it , by First saying positively there is no Variation at all ; and Secondly , proving it so to be , as infallibly as his fallible Conceits can prove so ambiguous a businesse by saying , from more uncertain grounds then his Seniors and Superiors , viz. Doctor Iohn Prideaux ( as he was called ) Luther , Capellus , and others say the contrary , that he cannot but Conjecture it so to be ; which proof hath as much strength in it as a straw , while thou Confessest ( as thou dost ) That Religious Care and Diligence in their Work , with a due Reverence of him with whom they had to do , is all ye ascribe to the first Transcribers , which not to acknowledge in them , is high Vncharitablenesse , which Care they lying under a loving careful Aspect from God , together with the Promise of God ( where he promiseth no such matter as thou talkest on ( viz. ) to preserve the Letter in all its Transcriptions from any Alteration , but to put his Word into his peoples mouths ) and his Providence and Care of his Church ( to which yet , or to the Transcribers of that which was to be her only Rule ( as thou sayest ) thou deniest that he yielded his infallible Spirit to continue with them ever as their guide ) produces the Copies yet extant , and then inferrest thy Conclusion to this purpose , ( viz. ) Shall we think that men that knew that every Letter and Tittle they were Transcribing , was part of the Word of the great God , &c. should should not be more careful and diligent in their Work then such as Transcribed Heathen Authors , Homer , Aristotle , Tully , thus to Argue we think is not Tollerable in a Christian ; and to imagine that the same Fate hath attended the Scripture in its Transcription , as hath done other Books , which yet I find some learned men too free in granting , seems to me to border on Atheism ; I say , while thou sayest but thus , thou sayest no more then what deserves no other Answer then this ( viz. ) That to say , confesse , and grant , that the first Transcribers of the Scripture were not infallible , nor divinely Inspired , but fallible , and to ascribe no more to them then a Religious care and diligence in their Work , and due Reverence of God with whom they had to do , and their lying under a loving and careful Aspect , from a Promise of God ( which was never made infallibly to guide them ) and his Providence ( without his divine Inspiration and direction ) and yet to Conclude that their Transcriptions were not attended with the same fate as other Books ( viz. ) Aristotle , Tully ( whose Transcribers , out of the Reverence they had of those Authors , or whoever else engaged them in that Work , would be as careful and diligent as they could without doubt , and no men uninspired can be more ) and much more that in their Transcriptions , it must not be supposed there was any Corruption or Variation from the first Copies so much as in one Letter or Tittle in the Copies extant at this day ( as I. O. sayes ) seems to me ( and I appeal to all men that are well in their wits to judge of what I say ) such an odde kind of self-Confutation , such a parcht up parcel of Confusion , such an inconsequent Conclusion , as is no lesse , but somewhat more , then Atheistical , having not only nothing in it of either God , Christ , or the Christian , but even not the common Reason of a man , and so is intollerable both among Christian men , and others , and bordering upon Atheism , as all unreasonablenesse doth : Yea , I. O. I doubt not as full of Oscitancy and Negligence as thou wast in the framing of the Fabrick of thy Book it self , yet the Reverence , and respect to thy Doctorship , and such like , would oblige the Printers of it to as much Care and Diligence in the doing of it , as they can use at this day who Print the Bible it self , neverthelesse what miscarriages and mistakes , and what a multitude of Errataes ( as there are many Printers faults in this of mine ) are at each end of thy Two English and Latine Tractates ? And is Transcription by the Pen more exempted from Errataes then the Presse ? which sometimes produces such abominable Errours in the Bible it self , as would amaze some people that know not the Mystery of that Art to be liable to mistakes , about the Scripturess as well as in other Writings , to read the flat falsities , that have been the issue of their failings : Yea , the same fate hath attended the Scripture at the Presse as hath other Authors , and why it cannot at the Pen I cannot Conjecture ; To instance in one that is more grosse then others ordinarily are , Rom. 15. ●9 . in one Edition & Impression that I have seen , these words of Paul , viz. from Ierusalem to Illyricum I have fully Preached the Gospel , are misprinted thus , from Ierusalem and round about to Illyricum I have falsly Preached the Gospel of Christ ; So that for thee to say the fate in Transcriptions and Impressions , in which way the Scriptures now altogether come forth since Printing came up ( for there 's now little or no Writing thereof at all ) hath not attended the Scriptures , as hath other Books , Vox sonat haecce Deum ? Ne hominem sonat hac tua ceri ? As for the rest of those yielding Strawes , and weak Weapons , wherewith thou standest out Pushing and Warring on , in vindication of thy Assertion , which looses ground more and more , at the tayl of which thou again usherest in thy Conclusion , viz. The Iewes silly superstitious sayings and doings , which thou minglest with thy own , shall we thinks ; as if thou didst not only justifie and side with them in their Absurdities , but also build much , as to the Evincing of thy Position thereupon , there lacks little to be Replyed as to the Routing of them , every one that hath any little solidity in him , being easily capable to see and feel the foppicalnesse thereof , yet at least I shall do thee so much Right , who perhaps placest more in them then many a wise man would do , as to nominate them . The Iewes ( sayest thou , pag. 169 , 170 , 171 , 173. ) have a Common saying , That to alter one Letter of the Law , is no lesse sin then to set the whole World on fire ; The truth is , they are prodigious things that are Related of the Exact Diligence , and Reverential Care of the Antient Jewes in this Work ; Ben Asher spent many years in the Careful Exact Writing out of the Bible ; Let any consider the things which they affirm to Prophane a Book or Copy , One is , if but one Letter be wanting ; and Another , if but one Letter be Redundant ; and shall we think that is Writing it they took no more Care then a man would do in Writing out Aristotle or Plato ? Considering that the Word to be Transcribed was every Tittle and Iota of it , The Word of the great God , &c. that if any failings were made , innumerable Eyes of men owning their Eternal Concernment to lye in that Word , were open upon it to discover it , &c. It is no hard work to prove their Care and Diligence to have out-gone that of Common Scribes of Heathen Authors ; Even among the Heathen we will scarce think that the Roman Pontifices going solemnly to Transcribe Sybills Verses , would do it either negligently , or Treacherously , or alter one Tittle from what they found written ; And shall we entertain such Thoughts of them , that knew they had to do with the living God , in and about that which is dearer to him then all the World besides ? Let men then Clamour as they please , and cry out of all as ignorant and stupid , which will not grant the Corruptions of the Old Testament , they plead , let them propose their Conjectures of Mistakes crept into the Original Copies with their Remedies , as Capellus , We shall acknowledge nothing of this nature , but what they can prove by undeniable and irrefragable instances , which as to any thing done by them , appears upon the matter to be nothing at all . It can then with no colour of Probability be Asserted ( which yet I find some Learned men too free in granting ) namely , that there hath the same Face attended the Scripture in its Transcription as hath done other Books : Let me say without offence , this Imagination seems to the to border on Atheism : Surely the Promise of God for the Preservation of his Word with his Love and Care of his Church , of whose Faith and Obedience the Word is the only Rule require other Thoughts at our hands . We adde , that the whole Scripture entire , as given out from God without any losse , is preserved in the Copies of the Originals yet remaining : What varieties there are among the Copies themselves , shall be afterwards declared ; in them all we say is every Letter and Tittle of the Word . Reply . Because the Children of the Letter , of the Old Testament , nor of the Gospel , the Spirit , and the New , are so sortish and senslesse , as to surmise that the bare Copies of the Letters , and Points and Tittles , and lo●aes , are dearer to God then all the World besides , so that its a greater sin to mis-transcribe one Letter , by either Alteration , Ablation , or Addition , which change by Deficiency , or Redundancy , may befal the most Critical , Curious , Careful Scribe that ever was , does prophan a Copy so that it s not the Holy Scripture ( for Prophane and Holy , are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and is as great a sin , and a matter of as much moment as the fi●ing the whole World , and upon such uncircumcised Conceits , are men Excrementi●ously exact and diligent to very do●age , and careful of Pins , Points , Vowels , Accents , Tittles , Iotaes , Apices , and Letters of the Text , ad Extra ( not Tantamount to the least of the Truths therein contained , no not to so ●uch as Tyth , while the Law for it stood , of Mint , An●is , and Commin ) to utter Carelesnesse of the grand Truths and reverentially respectful to their Book , as they were of old to their Brazen Serpent ( of as divine Original , and to as divine an end as the Letter is ) to very idolatry , and spending their time in tedious transcribings of every Apex , to the very total loss of many years from the more weighty matters of Judgement , Mercy , Righteousnesse , Faith , and Truth , which the Text doth but testifie of , and prodigious to very Superstition ; I say , because that blinded Generation of men ( viz. ) the Iewes , whom sometimes thou seemest to tax for their undue Veneration of the Letter , and over-weenings of it , pag. 236. and to set them at nought , as men feeding themselves all their dayes with vain Fables , addicted to figments , profoundly Ignorant , Idolatrous full of foolish Contradictious Triflings , bewitched with their Dunghilly Traditions , doing how seriously of nothing , how Childishly in serious things , fools , sots , froth , smoke , nothing , whose sayings and doings are no more to be heeded then that of wick'd , blind , mad-men , &c. pag. 236 , 239 , 242 , 243 , 246 , 247. do so adore the letter , and dote on the Tittles of it , must thou needs be foolish , and doting , and sottish , and superstitious , and Idolatrous , and so Childishly serious in taking up thy Time and Thoughts so totally and piningly after Toyes , and Trifles , and Iots , and Tittles together with them ? Vin tu Curtis Judaeis oppedere , &c. Wilt thou sometimes flert at the Iewes Fancies , and Fopperies , and odde Conceits , and over-curious Carriages of themselves in Boyes Toyes , and at that which is the fruit of their fidling minds , as not fit to be any other then forgotten , and yet forget thy self so other whiles as to entertain their vain Thoughts so as to own them as thine own , and own them as thy grounds and foundations to frame thy Arguments upon , so as both ●o think the same with them , and from thence to impose upon the thoughts and faith of others ? for if thou judg them ridiculous , why dost thou alledge them in so serious a Case as thou dost ? and if thou justifie them , art thou not one with them ? and because thou think'st , as they so superstitiously think , and from thence thrusts out thy confident Conclusions , in that thy wonted Interrogative way of shall we think this and that , shall we entertain such Thoughts , can it be imagined ? &c. or ( if positively ) then thus , it is not unprobable , it can with no colour of probability be Asserted , this or that Imagination seems to me to border on Atheism , Gods Promise , &c. require other thoughts at our hands , and such like ; must therefore the Children and Ministers of the New Testament , not of the Letter , but of the Spirit run a Whoring with the dead Literatists , back again from the Spirit to the Letter , from the Son to the Servant , from the Substantial Word to the Image and Copy of it , from the Living to the dead , from the eternal , inalterable , incorruptible Truth , to the varying , vanishing , perishing Tittles of Greek and Hebrew External Texts ; Must they that are of the Light , and of the Day Think , and Dote , and Dream with the light-defying Doctors of the Night , and of the Darknesse ? And because I.O. those Point-prizing Rabbies , and Tittle-trying Textmen , and thou with them think so , yet shall we think that every Tittle and Iota is the Word of the great God , and that our eternal Concernment lyes in every outward Apex of thy Canonized Copy , and that such an Accidental Attome is dearer to God then the who●e World besides ? and that every Copy of the holy Scripture is prophane , if redundant or deficient from what at first Writing it was , in one Letter , and that 't is more to mistake so as to alter a Letter in Transcribing a Copy of the Law , then to burn the whole World ? Shall we think that the writers of Aristotle & Plato , would not for Money , or for their Credits sake , or something , as most Scriveners do in what they undertake , Transcribe as exactly as they could ? and shall we think that men uninspired , as thou confessest the Scripture Transcribers were , could possibly do any more then they could do ? Yet ( to entertain the best Thoughts of them that may be ) grant their Care and Diligence to be more then that of Common Scribes of Heathen Authors ( to save thee the pains of proving it ) and that à minori ad majus , as the Romans would not Treacherously mis-transcribe Sybills Verses , so much lesse would Iewes the Scriptures , having therein to do with God ; yet shall we think all that Transcribed Scripture , & Translated it too , knew not whom they had to do with as well as some ? Yet varieties thou here Confessest are in the Copies among themselves , and that cannot be but that some of them must differ from the first Original , and ( if at all ) in Tittles at least , and ( if but so ) its enough to over-turn the universality of thy Assertion ; and so what was possible to some ( as mistakes were ) was possible to All , and not impossible to any Transcribers ; Shall we think then , because thou so thinkest , that there are no Mistakes crept into the Original Copies upon they groundlesse Conjecture , that if it be so that any be , all Truth it self , fails , as to its certainty , and that without remedy , or relief ? though sufficiently propounded by Capellus , and others , to the satisfaction of any , save wild I.O. that 's resolved to hold the Conclusion , and is loath to abate of his ( once uttered ) rash Assertion , but as it is forced from him by degrees , professing that he will acknowledge nothing of this nature , but what is proved by undeniable and irrefragable Instances , which Instances also himself gives ; and though he would have others give heed to his own improbable Probabilities , yet is Adeo infeliciter stupidus ut nulla ratione neque experentia erudiri possit , quasi tamen ipse solus superer vana perswasione sideratus , in contemptu omnium audaciter persistit , cum Comico illo clamans , dicat quod quisque volet ex hâ● opinione non dimovebimur . Etenim , si seniorum suorum , Cap. J.P. Testimonium , seu Experientia ipsa ullius apud eum ponde●is effe● aut momenti , Scripturae lectiones & Transcriptiones esse vari●s negare verecundaretur , Ex. 2. Sect. 28. i. e. so unhappily , irrefragably stupid himself , as not by any Reason or Experience to be instructed , but ( as if he alone must impose ) possest it with a vain perswasion pertinaciously proceeds in contempt of all men ; Crying out with the Comedian , Let every one say what he will , we will never be removed from this Opinion ; for if the Testimony of his Seniors , Capellus , I.P. or Experience it self , were of any weight , or moment , he would blush to deny that there are various Lections and Transcriptions of the Scripture . Shall we think , because I.O. so speakes ( a● he thinks ) that it can with no colour of Probability be Asserted , though learned men ( as is confest ) do confesse it , that the same fate hath attended the Scripture in its Transcription as hath done other Books ? Shall we think ( because I.O. saith it so seems to him ) that so to imagine , and so on deliberation to Assert , borders on Atheism ? Shall we think , and Conclude ( because I.O. Concludes so in his Thoughts ) that the whole Scripture entire , as given out from God , even every Letter and Tittle , without any losse , is preserved in the Copies of the Originals yet remaining ? Shall we think ( because I.O. without the least colour of Sense , Reason , Certainty , or Probability , thinks so ) that the Promise of God , for the preservation of his Word , and his Love and Care of his Church fails utterly , if one Iot or one Tittle of the outward Text fails , so as to be mistaken in the Transcribing ? Surely if so , it fails as much through the failings that are in Translations ( not without his permission ) for his Word and Church , as to her knowledge of it ( if the Letter were the only way to know it now ) are as much concern'd in the right Translation , as Transcription , yet I.O. denies , that God vouchsafes his infallible guidance in either ; but surely the Promise of God for the Preservation of his Word , with his care of his Church , of whose Faith and Obedience , not the Letter or Writing of it , but the Word it self declared of therein is the Rule , and was so before the Letter was , the Preservation of which , is neither more nor lesse by the Letters being , or not being , requires other Thoughts at our hands . CHAP. VII . NOw as for what follows that above named Crue or Brigade of Arguments , that were crowded so close together ( for as to what I have spoken to last , it was but a kind of carelesse Forlorn Hope that past afore them ) its mostly made up of a stragling Number of Grants , Concessions , Confessions , Allowances , Acknowledgments , and yieldings up of the Case in hand , or the Cause it self by I.O. so much before contended for ; howbeit so , as that I.O. gives the World to know ( such is [ as he sayes truly , pag. 191. of others , and himself too ] the vanity , curiosity , pride , and naughtinesse of the heart of man , and his readinesse to please himself with his own thoughts of things having once published them as Evidences of his Learning and diligence , and so exceedingly vain-glorious , curious , uncertain is the mind of man ( as I.O. also , De quo fabula narratur , sayes Epist. pag. 20. ) after a door to Reputation , and Renown by Learning is opened in the World , that having once spread himself in his Expressions over all bounds and limits of sobriety , rather then deny himself downrighthly , so as to expose himself Obvious to all , as one that hath been ignorant , and that he may render the ridiculousnesse of his lost Labours , as remote as may be from the observation of the many , let the fruit and Issue be what it will , he will seem to own , and stand to them to the utmost Apex as long as possible he can ) that he doth not Resign up the Truth of his Arch Assertion , but upon Honourable Terms and with certain Limitations , Restrictions , Distinctions , Reserves to himself , and upon Articles and Grants back again to him from his Antagonists , as ( though they help not much to heal and cure his Cause from sinking , yet ) shall serve at least ( as Drums beating , Trumpets sounding , Colours flying , Bullet i' th Mouth , Bag and Baggage use to do to keep up the half-crack'd Credit of Conquered Fort-Keepers ) to salve the Credit and Reputation of the wrestling Rabbi . The said Grants are on this wife ( viz. ) Though the Point at first propounded positively , and treated and insisted on very earnestly to be proved , was that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Copies which we have , do contain every Iota that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or first Writing , both of Moses and the Prophets , and also of the Apostles and Evangelists , pag. 13. Yea , every Letter and Tittle of the Old Testament , without Corruption , and entire , without various Lections , pag. 14 , 16 , 18 , 19. ( and what is spoken thus of the Old Testament , must be affirmed also ( quoth I.O. ) of the New , p. 27. ) And pag 153. The Scripture of the Old and New Testament are preserved unto us entire to the least Iota or Syllable in the Original Languages ; And pag. 173. That the whole Scripture entire , as given out , without any losse , is preserved in the Copies yet remaining ; Yet pag. 167. he sayes , It is known , it is granted that failings have been among Transcribers , and that various Lections are from thence risen , and we are ready to own all their failings that can be proved , p. 169. so notwithstanding what hath been spoken we grant ( quoth I.O. p. 178 ) that there are and have been various Lections in the Old Testament and the New. As for the Old , among the many other he instances in , which I have also spoken a little to above , he sayes of these of Ben Asher , and Ben Nepthali thus pag. 179. ( viz ) in their exact Consideration of every Letter , Point and Accent of the Bible , wherein they spent their lives , it seems they found out some varieties . Reply 1. An unprofitable improvement of mens whole Lives , that live no more according to the Scripture , then I.O. sayes the IEWES do , as honourably as he seems to speak here of it , for his own ends . 2. There are some Varities then it seems , though thou canst find none , or else they could not have found them . I.O. sayes , Of those Various Readings of the East and Western Jewes , that he is Ignorant of them , and can't a while to look much after them to inform himse●f of their Original , and all that he knowes of them is , that such there are , and appear in Bombergius his Bible , pag. 180. Reply . Whereby I.O. Confesses himself to be no competent Person to make any Creditable Censure of them , so that ( save that he Credits Capellus , whom he credits little , when he speaks Truths , that make against I.O. ) that they are not so , they may be very momentary for ought I.O. knowes . As to the New Testament , besides what I.O. sayes , Epist. pag. 27. viz. That he evidently finds various Lections in the Greek Copies which we enjoy , and so Grants that which Ocular Inspection evinces to be true ; His whole Third Chapter of his Second Treatise , is Totally taken up with Treating of them , in which he grants ore and ore again , That there are various Lections ; yea he is sain to Confesse , pag. 188 , 189 That of the various Lections in the Copies of the New Testament , Protestants for the most part have been the chiefest Collectors of them , and that though at first very few were observed , yet now they are swell'd into such a Bulk , that the very Collection of them makes up a Book bigger then the New Testament it self ; And pag. 190. That there are in some Copies of the New Testament , and those , some of them , of some good Antiquity , diverse Readings in things and words of lesse Importance , is acknowled●ed ; And pag. 191. That so many Transcriptions as there are of the New Testament , should be made without some variations , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. impossible . Rep●y . All which , if it be not a point blank giving of the Point and Position at first Propounded , to be proved , viz. That there is no Change or Alteration in the least Iota or Syllable , from what they were at first in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament ; pag. 153. The proof whereof also was for a while more frivously and fiercely , then forcibly followed and prosecuted ; and if [ contrary to the said Assertion ] it be not an yielding that there is much Change , Alteration , and various Lection , then I know not what a Resignation or Rendring up of a Cause is , or else understand not well what I.O. means , but mistake him to be one that means as he sayes , while he sayes one thing , and means another matter : Notwithstanding by one means or other ( but fair or fowl , hook or crook , right or wrong , effectual or weak , concurring or self-contradicting , is much at one with I.O. ) he lifts up himself again [ but alittle too late , having perforce once yielded so far ] to look after his lost Assertion again , to recover it , and ( if possible ) to try one touch more to see if he can make it stand up in its former strictnesse , wherein at first he laid it down : And so in one of his wonted fits of dangerlesse fear , least his giving way so much should create a Temptation to his Reader , that nothing is left sound and entire in the Letter , which he falsly calls the Word of God , and his only perfect Rule , stable Bottom , true and sure Foundation , pag. 193. He Summons his Sentence back into its first Rigidity , saying ( and that not out of Hopes but that some may be so foolish as to believe him ) that with them that rightly ponder things ( all his own Confessions and other Protestants professions notwithstanding ) there ariseth nothing at all to the prejudice of his Assertion : Yea , all that yet appears , impairs not in the least the Truth of our Assertion , That every Tittle and Letter ( quoth he ) remaines in the Copies preserved , pag. 181. The Grounds which he judges his Assertion ( viz. ) That there 's no Alterations or various Lections in Tittles and Letters , to stand firm upo● , notwithstanding all his Grants , that there are many various Lections in the present Copies of the O●iginal , are the small Number , the small Time of standing in the World , and the small importance of those various Lections and Alterations that are : On these small and slender Accounts he hopes to slide clear away , and salve the Censure of Absurdity and Falshood from befalling his so strictly insisted on Assertion . Yea , he never leaves mincing the matter , and pinching it in again , and prosecuting what passes from him by way of Grant , to get it home again , that upon the matter his giving of the Cause to his Opponents , aftermuch stiff , strict , & sturdy standing out in it , is but like that of Egypt , who being forced to let the House of Israel go after long struggling and reluctancy , and after , being afraid what would come on 't , ran out a ter them in much hast , but as little heed , as no good speed , to bring them back again ; Let it go then for Granted ( when he saw he could hold it no longer quoth I.O. ) There are some various Lections and Mistakes , but those if rightly considered , are so few , of so late , and novel , and upstart a standing ; and of so little moment , that they are not , upon a serious Survey of them , deservedly to be counted upon , so far as to come under the Consideration or Notion of various Lections . To this purpose are sundry of his Speeches spawn'd up and down the face of sundry pages ; pag. 179. Those of Ben Asher and Nepthali , let any one run them throw ( quoth he ) he will find them to be so small , consisting for the most part in unnecessary Accents , of no importance to the sense of any Word , that they deserve not to be taken notice of : Those of the East and Western Jewes , all I know of them ( quoth he pag 180. ) I wish such as know more of them , would inform me better , is , That they first appeared in the Edition of the Bible by Bombergius , under the Care of Fe. Pratensis ; they give us no Account of their Original ; Nor ( to professe my Ignorance ) do I know any that do , it may be some do , but in my present hast I cannot enquire after them ; but the thing it self proclaimes their no Importance , they are all Trivia ' , and not in matters of any moment . Besides these ( quoth he ) and the Keri and Ketib , there are no other various Lections of the Old Testament ; If any other can be gathered , or shall be hereafter out of Antient Copies of Credit and Esteem , where no mistake can be discovered as their Cause , they deserve to be considered . As to the Tikun● Sopherim , or Correctio Scribarum , by which means Eighteen places are Corrected ; all things here ( quoth he ) are uncertain ; uncertain that ever any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by their Sopherim ( Ezra and his Companions most probably , pag. 181. ) as to the Ablario Scribarum , these are only about the use of the letter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 four or five times , pag. 185 as to the Corruption of Psal. 22.17 . where instead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Iudicial Copies , and Antwerp Bibles also read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Simeon de Mues ( quoth he . p 185 , 186 , 187. ) pleads the Substitution of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be a late Corruption of the Jewes , a● least that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was the Keri , and was left out by them . Jo. ●saac professes , he saw 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in a Book of his Grandfathers . Boxtorsuis affirms one to have been the Keri , the other the Ketib , and proves it from the Massor● , and blames the Antwerp Bibles for Printing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Line , with him many agree , others contend that Cari ought to be retained . Rep. 1. See , what a heavy Rout here is among the Divines about one Iod or Iota ? what tumbling and tangling themselves , & tearing & pulling here is among the Text-men , about their outward Tittles and Transcripts , that they may hide the flawes , that are in their Foundation , from being found , because they have Asserted , that if one Tittle fail , their strong Tower goes all down ? which yet the more they tamper about it , the more they tell the World of the Ticklishnesse of it ; so the foolish Woman pulls down her own House , and , by her own brawling , blames the bottom of her Babel building as brittle , yet sees not how by her loudnesse and clamorousnesse , she shewes what she seeks to cover ; He that hideth her , hideth the wind , and the Ointment of his right hand , which bewra●eth it self , Prov. 27.16 . But I.O. interposes , imposes , and hushes all , and contrary to Buxtorf himself ( his honoured great Master of all Jewish learning , who is an Oracle with him , when he can make any use of him to his own Iejune purpose ) gives his shorter Determination ( so he stiles it ) and , flatly contradicting Buxtorf , and all that side with him , in saying Cari ought not to stand in the Line ( though yet he confesses Buxtorf proves what he sayes too , from the Massora ) in effect affirms with his so much praised Mr. Pocock , that it ought to be from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the Epenthesis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the change , which is often used of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Line . Ridiculum caput ! 't were enough to make an Animal Risibile , of one that 's scarce Rationale , to see how I.O. does wel-nigh Iurare in Sententiam Buxtorfii , so pin his Faith on his for ever honoured Buxtorfs sleeve sometimes , and cleaves so to his Opinion , as if there had been some Transmigration of Old Buxtorfs Soul into I. O's . Body ; and yet here , where I.O. Confesses Buxtorf proves what he sayes too , and is backt in it also by five or six other renowned Authors more , I O. cleaves asunder from him , and all that cleave to him , and goes by himself , gleaning after the Vintage of his Master Pocock , saying straitway ( sith 't is better for his turn at this time , and more pertinent to his present purpose , for all he had been so much in love with the Old wine of his Master Buxtorfs Wisdom ) that his Master Pococks Miscellanean New Wine is better . 2. How wilt thou scape the just Censure of Contradiction to thy self I.O. in that thou having mentioned these Two sorts of various Readings of Ben Asher and Nepthali , and of the East and Western Iewes , thou addeft , pag. 180. that , besides these , there are no various Lections of the Old Testament , very positively and exclusively , not only of whatever shall happen to be gathered hereafter , but also of the Keri and Ketib , the Correctio Scribarum , or Amendment of Eighteen places , and the Ablatio Scribarum , or Note of the Redundancy of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 five times , as no various Lections ; and yet pag. 13. thou thy self reckonest up , and instancest in all these three sorts , as such , among the rest , and concludest the self same thou excludest from it in the other place under that very Term and Title of diverse Readings , or various Lections ? But this is a Common thing with I.O. to forget himself so , as what he sayes in one place , to unsay it again in another : Nor am I without Apprehensions , that ( as he sayes of the learned Collectors of various Lections , pag. 196 , 197 : ) in O●ere longo obrepsit somnus , and that while he had his hands and mind busied about many Things , sundry mistakes did fall into his Work of Disproving various Lections . 3. What intendest thou I.O. by that Clause , if any various Readings shall be gathered , where no mistake can be discovered as their Cause , they deserve to be considered ? Is there any various Lection , that mistake in Transcribing is not the cause of ? Where there various Readings of one Text to be found in the Writing , as given out from God at first ? Was there not Identity and perfect exact likenesse to it self in every Text , Term , and Tittle of Scripture when 't was written ? And if there be any varieties now ( as there are not a few ) are not those very varieties ( so many as they are ) so many mistakes ? and is it not the Position it self to be vindicated by thee against all those , whom in the wildnesse of thy heart thy hand is against , that there are no mistakes befallen the Scripture , nor such miscariages as befel the Transcribers of Heathen Authors , p. 168 ? See also 167. and pag. 171. Let men ( sayest thou ) propose their Conjectures about the Mistakes they pretend are crept into the Original Copies , we will acknowledge nothing , &c. And pag. 177. We have security that no Mistakes were in the Text before the coming in of our Saviour . So 191. To relieve their Mistakes , &c. So 343 , 345. So pag. 18. in all which places , he whose eyes are in his head , may see how thou makest Mistakes and Corruptions , Mistakes and Errours , Mistakes and Falsifications , Synonomaes , and yet here , p. 180. thou makest as if there were various Lections where there 's no Mistake as their Cause ; And also pag. 192. Thou quarrellest with the Appendix to the late many Tongu'd Bible , in that therein whatever varying Word , Syllable , or Tittle , wherein any Book varieth from the common received Copy , though manifestly a Mistake , superfluous or deficient , inconsistent with the sense of the place , yea Barbarous , is presently imposed as a various Lection ; And pag. 199. it is ( sayest thou ) against all pretence of Reason , that every Mistake should be admitted as a various Lection ; in which self-same page thou renderest Copies corrupted or mistaken as all one . And pag. 200. speaking of different places , To what end ( sayest thou ) should the minds of men be troubled with them , or about them , being evident mistakes of the Scribes ; as if mistakes of the Scribes were one thing , and Corruption or various Readings from the first Copy were another : Was there ever the like piece of Confusion and meer Mangonization of Matters made before by any Master in Israel , as this , which is here made by thee I.O. who one while makest Mistakes and various Lections one and the same , and otherwhiles makes them Two Things , so that though they do ever ponere se invicem , yet often it s so with thee , that posito uno non ponitur alterum ? Surely , whether various Lections and Mistakes be in that Text of Scripture or no , and whether various Lections and Mistakes be all one or no ; here 's both various Lections , Corruptions , Confusions , self Contradictions , and abominable grosse Mistakes also in thy talk about the varieties and mistakes of the Letters Transcribing ; and such an uncouth , unhewen , indigested , disjointed , incongruous , unharmonious , tottered kind of Round-about discourse , as no reasonable man ever ran in , and no reasonable man can find either head or raylin , insomuch that should any Quakes have uttered the Tyth of that Confusion , that thy Speech in this matter abounds with , thou wouldest have said ( and justly too ) what thou unjustly chargest them with in thy Latine Letter , ad Lectorem ( viz. ) that their Speech is so Crude and nonsensical , that thou canst not well perceive their meaning ; I shall therefore here again , as before I have done , and might do of Twenty more places of thy Book , not without good Cause bespeak thee much-what in thy own words of the Quakers ; Qui● Sermonem illum , quo hic uteri● bene intelligat ? Quis inconditum illum verborum sonum omni sano sensu vacuum , quo non tantum omnibus aliis qui veritatem asserunt , sed & ipse tibi in dicendo contradic●●e videris , mente percipere possit ? Epist. ad Lectorem , & Ex. 3. S. 17. Quaenam sit Tua de diversis Scripturae Lectionibus haud facile quis declarabit , praea●erquam enim quod Sermones tui inter se non Conveniant , ita ineptè atque odiose in explicando animi tui sensu garris , dubiae & incertae significationis vocibus ludis , nihil sani sensus aut quod ab ullis sanae mentis intelligi possit continentibus , ut multo facilius sit argumenta tua profligare quam mentem percipere ; imo cum Turpis & inhonesta est , vel ipsam non Palam Eloqueris , vel verbis itae consutis & consarcinatis , ut nibil paene omnino significent , eam mang●nizas , atque ita inscite consilium Sermonibus obtenebrans , nibil magis cavere videris quam ne intelligaris . Who is able to make any thing of that raw , self Contradicting kind of Talk thou tracest to and fro in devoid of all sound Sense , uncertain , doubtful , undistinct , patcht together , cloudy , foolish , Childish , unsavoury , as if thou tookest care more to hide thy meaning , then to speak it out plainly , or make it manifest ; as if , b● Foring and Poking so long into Pococks Miscellanyes , thou hadst left thy eyes behind thee there , and contracted to thy self some certain Miscellaneous Spirit , that cannot tell how to distinguish any thing , but mingles all things together into a disorderly Masse , and immethodically Messe of impertinent Confusion But to let it passe , and proced to an Observation of the rest of thy poor put offs in this kind , whereby , though-thou grantest various Lections , yet , thou little lesse then denyest it again , that there are any , that can properly be so denominated . How deservedly is this to be Noted to the shame of thy Confusion , and of thy self Con●ounding self in it , that thou struglest and yie●dest , and struglest and yieldest , and then struglest again like a drunken minded man , that reeleth and staggereth to and fro in his vomit , in most places of thy Book , wherein thou handlest the Point of various lections . For as pag. 13 , 14. thou first sayest , That your Copies contain every jot that was in the f●●st , without alteration of one Tittle , then that it s no doubt , but there are some diverse Readings , or various Lections in the Copies ye enjoy ; Then again , That the whole is preserved without Corruption in every Letter and Tittle ; Then again , That there is variety in the Copies ye have ; But then again , ( and that 's the final Resolution of the whole matter , which stands to salve all from sinking ) That where there are any varieties fallen out by Gods permission thereof , it s alwayes in things of lesse , indeed of no importance . So pag. 198 , 199 , 200 , 201 after many Grants , that there are many diverse Readings , both in the Old Testament , and the New , as one afraid thou hast yielded too far to the prejudice of thy Assertion , thou pullest in again what thou canst by speaking so diminutively of the various Lections that are , as if they were upon the matter just nothing at all . I am not ( sayest thou ) upon the whole matter out of hopes , but that upon a diligent review of all these various Lections , they may be reduced to a lesse offensive , and lesse formidable number : in which Review thou reckonest as followes . I.O. 1. Let then the vulgar Copy we use passe for the Standard as it 's right and due . Rep , Whether this [ let ] be Optative , i.e. a begging , that it may by all be granted so to passe , or Imperative , i.e. a commanding all so to let it passe , is much at one to me : but as from him 't is as much as to say , let that Copy which I I O. imagine to be most meritorious of that honour , be the Standard for all Copies and things besides it self , and it self also to be tryed by , as which agrees to every Tittle with the fi●st immediate Manuscripts , and let all that agree not with it , stand but for so many Cyphers , and be no more accounted on then if they were just nothing at all , grant me this , and there will no such varieties appear , as we are surprized with , and my Assertion will stand good ; so far at least that we have a Copy of the Scripture , that is to a Syllable exactly agreeing with the first Manuscripts , in which there is no errour nor deviation therefrom , and that the same fate of mis-transcribing hath not befallen the Greek and Hebrew Texts of Scripture , as hath done other Books ; to this effect I.O. sayes , to whom in short say I ( as the Proverb is ) if wishes were Horses , then ( Lord ) Beggars would Ride : but that must not be , left they grow so proud as to know themselves lesse then yet they do , who are so haughty and wise in their own con●eits , as to know themselves in all reason too little already ; we may not grant thee I.O. for all thy Question-begging demand of it , that your vulgar Copy can claim such a high thing , as it 's right and due , to stand down as an unalterable Standard for all truth and doctrines , and all other Texts of Transcript Copies to be tried by , till thou hast prov'd it to be , to a Tittle , entirely agreeing with the first Manuscripts , which since thou confessest they are all long since perished , there remains nothing but thy thoughts to try it by , whether it square in every Iota with them , much lesse can it be prov'd to be it's due to be canonized , as the standing Rule , whereby to prove or disprove the exactnesse of all the rest : nor is the reason thou rendrest for it's right , in that kind , as here under followeth , worth a rush . I.O. Let it be remembred it was the publike possession of many generations , and in actual Authority throughout the world . Rep. 1. Not thorowout the whole world of Christendom it self , which is but a corner in comparison of the world , nor yet thorowout the whole Protestant world , which is but a corner of Christendom so called , and hath not been many generations yet in actuall being it self , much lesse hath had your vulgar Copy so long in actuall Authority thorowout it ; yea ( as I have shew●ed above ) there have been and are Bibles written and printed , that have in them Books of Scripture ( viz. that of Paul to Laodicea ) which your vulgar Copy wants . 2. But were it so yet ( if thou mayest be believed when thou speakest as oft thou dost , in contradiction to thy self ) thy reason that the vulgar Copy ought to stand ( de jure ) as the Standard , because ( de facto ) it hath stood in actual Authority so long in the Christian world , is rendred by thy self a very reasonlesse reason , who in another place and case sayest thus , p. 105. If numbers of men may be allowed to speak , we may h●ve a Traditional Testimony given to the Blasphemous figments of the Alcoran ; but the constant tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober , from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of Hell for the Mahometans . As therefore I own not the Alcoran as a Standard , upon the account of I. O's . Reason for his vulgar Copy , viz. the Catholike , owning , receiving , and possessing it in time and place : so , though I prize the Scripture above the Alcoran , as much as I can do writing by divine inspiration above that which is but mans invention , yet I cannot own the vulgar Copy of it as the Standard , upon such an account as it's universall reception ; for what he gives for the vulgar Copy , the same can I give ( if it were a sound one ) as a Reason for the Alcoran , viz. memorandum , or let it be remembred , that the Alcoran hath been the publike possession of many Generations , and in actual Authority among men , as a Standard thorowout the whole world of Mahometanism , yet is not therefore to passe upon any ones intreaty or command , saying ( as I.O. of the other ) let it passe for the Standard as its right and due . I.O. Let those places be separated from the name of various Lections , which are not sufficiently attested to , so as to pretend to be various Lections , it being against all pretence of Reason , that every mistake of every , obscure , private Copy , perhaps not above two or three hundred years ( or if elder ) should be admitted as a various Lection ; men may if they please inform the world wherein such Copies are corrupted , or mistaken , but to impose their known failings on us as a various Lections , is a course not to be approved . Rep. How I.O. what against all pretence of Reason , that every mistake in every obscure Copy , though of two or three hundred years , or more , should be accounted a various Lection ? is it not rather most unreasonable in thy self , to account it otherwise ? does the obscurity , privacy , or novelty of a Copy , though more then three hundred years old , make the various Readings , that are in it from the first Original Copy , not various Readings ? are not various Lections various Lections , where ever they are found whether in a more ancient , or in a later Copy ? are they ever the lesse various Readings , because in Copies , which thou callest novell , private , and obscure ? Nothing it seems must be notable in the world , but what comes within the narrow ken of I Os. cognizance and comprehension , its private , obscure , novell , though known to never so many , till it obtain some Patent from I.O. ( who , when he knows any thing , thinks that he is the first that knows what then he first knows ) to passe for publike and ancient among other folk , though no lesse then two or three hundred years elder then himself : on which account how Apishly angry is he with the Authors of the Appendix to the late Biblia Polyglotta , for counting the differences that are in later Transcripts as various Lections , p. 192. whatever varying word ( quoth he ) Syllable or Tittle could by any be obse●ved , wherein any Book , though of yesterday , varieth from the common received Copy , though manifestly a mistake superfluous , or deficient , inconsistent with the sense of the place ; yea barbarous , is presently imposed on us as various Lection ; so p. 194. How peevishly complains he that all differences that could be found in any Copies printed , or written , are equally given out as various Lections ; many differences that have been formerly rejected by learned men , for open corruptions , are here tendred us again ( quoth he ) adding , it is not every variety or difference in a Copy that should presently be cryed up for a various Reading . A man might with as good colour take all the printed Copies he could get , of various Editions , and gathering out the Errata Typographica , print them for various Lections . I answer why not ? do not all Errata , whether Apographica or Typographica , make various Lections from the first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some degree at least , whether they be fewer and lesser , or more and grosser ● whence come those few errours that thou thy self ownest for various Lections , but from the failings and mistakes of the Scribes in Transcribing , or the Compositors at the Presse , from whence all the rest come , which by no means thou wilt admit to be called by that name ? yet those that others call corruptions and various Lections on the self same account as thou callest those few , which thy ownest as such , thou turnest them off with , To what end should mens minds be troubled with them , being evident mistakes of the Scribes ; dost thou grant then , that in many places of your Original Apographical Copies , there be evident mistakes of the Scribes ? in so doing dost not thou grant all that is contended for against thee , which is , that in your Transcriptions of the Original Text , thou so much talkest for the entirenesse and integrity of , to every Letter , Point , Syllable , Tittle , and Iota , the Scribes were evidently mistaken , so as to mis-transcribe , and the Printers , through whose hands the Bible comes mostly or altogether now , were evidently mistaken , so as to mis-print many words , Syllables , Letters , Tittles , Points , Iotaes , to the manifest corrupting of the Scripture in the Greek and Hebrew Text thereof , as well as of the Text in other Tongues , whereby it is undeniably evident to any but obstinate I.O. that the same fate both hath ever , and still doth , and therefore may ( sith quod fieri potuit potest ) attend the Scripture in its Editions by Transcribing , as hath done , doth , or may do any other Books , and may well be asserted so to do , without thy sottish , senselesse , unreasonable , Atheistical supposition and censure of its bordering on Atheism so to imagine , and for all thy foolish and false affirmation , p. 173 , that the promise of God for the preservation of the Scripture to a Tittle , require other thoughts at our hands . I say why should not one various Lection by a mistake in the Transcribers or Printers , be counted and called a various Lection , corruption , mis-transcription , alteration of the Text , as well as another ? a lesser as well as a greater , a later as well as one more ancient ? 2. I wonder whose Reason but Reasonlesse I. Os. it is against the corruptions in Copies of so great Antiquity , as two or three hundred years , should not be numbred among others that are much elder ? And sith many mistakes and corruptions are confest to have crept into Copies of later times , by the Oscitancy , Negligence , Ignorance , Wilfulnesse , or something of the Scribes , who knew as much of late as they did of old , what they were about , and with whom they had to do therein , and were under as much promise , aspect , and care of God , whose providence and love to his Church and Word , is as great for the preservation of both in these last ages as ever ( if his un-erring guidance of Scribes and Printers that Transcribe and Print the Scripture be such a non such expression thereof , as I.O. would make it ) I wonder what warrant and security I.O. who denyes inspiration and infallible direction to all Transcribers from the first to the last , can give us , of the honesty , fidelity , integrity , ability , and against the erroneousnesse , carelesnesse , unskilfulnesse , and aptnesse to mis-transcribe of the more ancient , more then I can of and against that of the later Transcribers , whether Jewes or Christians ; since they who know not the Spirit , are all as zealous now of the letter as ever , and more Tender , and Talkative , and T●tling , for every Tittle of their Text , then ever they were since the world stood ( witnesse I.O. himself ) yea when was there more care and curiosity , and critical consideration about the exact writings , printings and reprintings of the Bible then is now adayes ? yet no Editions ever come out so carefully corrected and copied out , but that a man may fill a page with its Errataes in more then either Tittles or Iotaes ; and if now , and two or three hundred years ago , why not in dayes of old I know not , nor any one else I believe , but that I.O. sayes otherwise , and is more ready to beleeve his own Say●soes , and suppositions , then the naked Truth , and to be believed by such as dote on his Doctorship , then to be disproved , or proved a Lyar. But finally , that I may at once remove this sleevelesse pretence of I. O. out of the way ( at his command and our own leasure ) let those obscure , private , novel Copies ( as he counts them ) and their corruptions be separated and removed out of his way , since they trouble him so much ; we can abate him them , and afford and spare him the setting apart of them , and more too , and yet carry the cause against him too out of his own mouth ; nor will his plea and pretence of the privacy , obscurity , and novelty of these , if we allow it him , prosper to the proving that there is no various Lections in his Original Texts , since we have it professed , publikely passed ( and consequently proved against himself ) under his own hand , which ever and anon pulls down what it builds up , and soon after builds again what it once destroyed ) thus viz. p. 190. I.O. That there are in some Copies of the New Testament , and those some of them of some good Antiquity , divers Readings in things or words of lesse importance is acknowledged ; the proof of it lyes within the reach of most , in the Copies that we have , and I shall not sollicite the reputation of those who have afforded us others out of their own private furniture . Rep. These being I.Os. own words , whereby he hath overturned his t'other Talk , I need talk no more on it , for I cannot set his Babel more perpendicularly with its Bottom upwards , then it stands already , as himself hath set it . Yet for all this I. O. may think he hath qualified and salved this saying of his , from the censure of a contradiction to the other , by the inserting of this clause into it ( viz. ) [ of no importance ] and indeed that is the second of the generall heads , whereby he seeks to heave his high Assertion up into its health again , after he had half knockt it on the head , and laid it a bleeding by his own many grants against the Truth of it . I.O. 2. ly quoth he let the same judgement ( i.e. ) of no various Lections passe upon all those different places , which are altogether inconsiderable , consisting in Accents , or the change of a Letter , not in the least intrenching on the sense of the place● to what end should mens minds be troubled with them ? they are but evident mistakes of the Scribes , and of no importance at all . Rep. 1. Observe how this by I.O. is spoken to clear it up that there 's no considerable corruptions nor various Lections crept into the Copies of their Text and Transcripts , by the mistakes of the Scribes , and in every reasonable mans understanding , 't is just as if he should have thus said ( viz. ) There is no Reason that men should surprize us with the sense of so many varieties of Readings as they do , through the evident mistakes of the Scribes , for though I confesse there are many , yet what should they be counted on , as considerable , as Corruptions , or mistakes of the Scribes ? being they are no more then evident mistakes of the Scribes , and so of no importance at all ; whereas the very Question it self that is pleaded by us against I. O. and pleaded for against us by himself , is whether the Scribes have been mistaken or no in their writing over the Scripture , so as that various Lections are from thence crept into the Copies of the Originals ? Bare us but all those different places ( quoth I.O. ) which are but evident mistakes of the Scribes , which are of no importance , and then let 's see how many various Readings you 'l find in the Scripture , to the prejudice and impeachment of our Assertion , viz. that the Text of our Original Transcripts are written entirely , to every Apex , Tittle , and Iota , agreeably to the first hand-writing of the holy men that were moved to write it ? Here 's petitio principii , again , such a base begging of the Question as is utterly unbecomming any Iunior in his Humanity much more a Senior Doctor , in his Divinity disputations , yet a course as fowly as foolishly made use of by I.O. in his Scribe-like disputings for the Scriptures ; grant us the Scripture to be the word of God , ( quoth he ) under that very formality let us consider it , and then I 'le prove it so to be , or else my proofs will be left naked , and utterly divested of that Authority and Efficacy that I plead i● in them , p. 71. grant me that the evident mistakes of the Scribes are not evident mistakes of the Scribes in their transcribing of the Scripture , and then I 'le prove evidently enough that the Scribes were not so much mistaken as ye say they were in Transcribing it . But 2 ly . as to the diminutives , upon which I.O. perhaps will plead he puts the prime stresse in the case in hand , somewhat must be said , lest I.O. judge himself sleighted , if they be answered with , nothing but silence ( for as little importance as they are of to his cause , and as little importance as he would by them make our Assaults to be of against his Arch Assertion , yet 't is like he sets so much store by them , as to suppose them to be strong supporters for his small matters , and pidling propositions , which to him ( as he sayes p 153. ) are important Truths , to stand stedfast upon ) away with all those different places ( quoth he ) which are altogether inconsiderable , consisting in Accents or the Change of a Letter or so , not in the least intrenching on the sense , of no Importance at all , lest these passe as no alterations , or various Lections , and ye shall see anon what a little corner your corruptions ye charge upon our Copies will be crouded into . Rep. 1. Observe how diminutively I.O. delivers himself concerning the many mistakes , errours , and corruptions , faults and falsities that are sound to have befallen his Transcriptions ; when he talks of Translations , in which the Word and Churches interest lyes , and in which the souls of poor people that are not Book-learned , any further then to read the Letter in Lingua vernacula , is much more concerned , then in the Greek and Hebrew Texts and Transcripts ( which the Linguist onely Labours so much about , as if all mens soules , and all Truth lay at stake , and were eternally to live or dye at the Priests mercy , shutting out or letting people into the light of life by their lips , as laborinthically , as laboriously unlocking of that humane secret ) then I.O. magnifies , multiplyes the mistakes , errors , and corruptions thereof , as is shewed above , rendring all Translations ( for his own ends ) as much mistaken , & mis-rendring the Literal sense as may be ; yea p. 325. to 343. and so all along in his last Chapter of his second Treatise , & from thence to the very end of it , speaking of the Arabick and other Translations , he expresses himself Hyperbolically , on this wise , ( viz. ) would I make it my businesse to give instances of the mistakes , ignorance , falsifications , errours and corruptions of these Translators , my discourse would swell into a volume ; and of the Chaldee Paraphrase , p. 334. thus , Seeing it hath not lain under any peculiar Care , and merciful providence of God , whether innumerable other faults and errours ( as it happened with the Septuagint ) be not begot into it , who can tell ? and of the Septuagint it self ( which some Clergy men cry up as high as he can do his Transcript Copies ) p. 335. 336. thus All things here are exceedingly uncertain , it 's rise is uncertain , some call the whole story of that Translation into question , as though there had never been any such persons in Rerum natura , &c. nothing almost is manifest concerning it , but that it is wofully corrupt , and p. 15. This Translation either from the mistakes of it's first Authors , or the carelesnesse , or ignorance , or worse ( mark † of it's Transcribers , is corrupted or gone off from the Original , in a 1000. places twice told , it 's a corrupt stream , a Lebian Rule p , 15.16 . But when I.O. talks about the mistakes , errours , corruptions , falsifications , failings of the Scribes of his curious courted Copies , having once so critically commended them in his hast , as to deny any corruptions in Tittles and Iota's to be crept into them , so as to occasion various Readings , then he Minifies , then he Nullifies , as far as his little or nothing to the purpose can do it , either there 's none at all , or if any but novell , or if Antient but in small matters , or if in any matter of moment , but very few , or if never so many , but euident mistakes of the Scribes , or in spurious Copies , or meer superfluities and redundancies of unnecessary and deficiencies of necessary words , or risen out of some apparently corrupted Copies or other , or Copies corrupted by the old Heretick , to which heads most that are ( quoth he ) and ( say I ) all that can be in any Scripture , are reducible , what should men mind such little things for at all ? Vau ( quoth he ) is a Letter redundant but five times , Cari is for Caru once , ● for ● by a late corruption of the Jewes , who left out the Keri , that is Caru , and instead thereof wrote Cari , which is the Ketib , as Isaac sayes , who in his Grandfathers Bible saw Caru in the line . As to that of the East and Western Jewes , I know nothing of them ( quoth he ) but that such various Lections there do appear ; but I am in too much hast to look after them ( as if because he professes his own ignorance about them , he seemed to desire that such as know them would wink and not note them , or see but say nothing of them as various Lections , but let them passe for none among all the rest , because I. O. sees them not . A little trifling notice I. O. seems to take also , as if there might be such a thing ( but as much as he can in a mist he carries it ) as the correctio Scribarum , or 18. places , confessed by Elias to be corrected by the Scribes , but ( quoth he ) p. 181. all things here are uncertain that ever any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by their Sopherim , thus he white-limes it over , and washes it off as well as he can , in that sleighty way , which is so thin that they are sore and sorry eyes indeed , which do not see his sore through it and his sorry shifts , for if it be uncertain whether there be 18. places first corrupted and then corrected by un-inspired Scribes in his Text , he so talks for the integrity of to a Tittle , yea or nay ; then it 's not certain to I O. that there are not , yet so it must be , or else his foundation of all ( as he calls it ) is found flawy and faultry in not so few places , but that ( by his own confession ) that his Anti-fanatick , Fantastick Fabrick falls all into confusion , and is founded on a sandy , uncertain bottom , for what is utrobique incertum non est vel hinc vel illinc certum , quod tibi bâc incertum est non tibi certum est illac , that variety which is uncertain , whether it be so or no , I know certainly is not certainly known not to be so : But put case it be so , the old Miosis must make up the matter , if there be 18. places of the divine Text by men amended , it 's but the amendment of some small Apiculi ( quoth he p. 13. by which saying in order to the amendment of his own bad matter , he hath fell into a worse unawares , but alas he sees it not , as he might easily do , if he were not exceedingly blinded , or more then half asleep , for if it be , uncertain to him whether there be any such amendments or no , as he sayes tis , and that the particular places enumerated , discover no such correction , how can I.O. tell what they were , and that they were but of certain Apiculi , or smaller Tittles ? yet he will be Tittle-Tatling still of what he confesses he knows not , and that it 's uncertain to him . Ob. If he say , as he does , they are all in particular considered by Glassius , and the matter is determined by Buxtorf , his renowned Masier of Jewish learning . Rep. I say if the Testimony of Buxtorf which I.O. himself sets down as written to Glassius in that matter be to be credited , it overturns I. O's● saying that 't was but of Apiculi onely , for Buxtorf mentions them as things , which did Textum sacrum in literis et sensu corrigere : see I.O. thy own quotation out of him in thy 183. page ; Thus when men think to scrue their wits to shew themselves wise in their way against Truth , they oft are lest of God to bewray themselves ( as I O. and I. D. R. B. and I. T. too in other cases do ) to be very fools ; for this of I O. is much what like that Testimony which the wise high-Priests of old hired the Souldiers to bear against Christs resurrection , who came to testifie , as Eye-witnesses , of what was done while they were asleep , saying , his Disciples came and stole him away while we slept , in which sleep it seems they could see his Disciples come , but not awake out of it , though a Court of Guard to rescue him from them . So sayest I.O. contrary to Buxtorf whom he quotes , The amendment of the 18. places was but of Apiculi , and yet confessing 't is uncertain whether there were any amendment of 18. places at all , yea or no : if he knowes what was corrected , then the 〈◊〉 is certain that there was a correction ; but if he know not whether there were any such correction made or no , then ' ti● not certain to him , ●hat 't was but of such diminutive Tittles , as he would make it . But this is the strain he strikes up in now , and the string he hangs all on . True ( quoth he ) mistakes , mis-transcriptions , various Lections there are but none considerable , or of importance , but consisting in Accents , or some Letter not altering the sense , where there is any variety it is alwayes in things of lesse , indeed of no importance p. 14. and there quoting Buxtorf again , he sayes thus , Hebraei V. T. codices ubique sibi sunt similes , si forte exiguas quasdam Apiculorum quorundam differentias excipias quae ipsa tamen nullam varieta●em efficiunt , the Hebrew Bibles are every where agreeing , except some small differences in some small Tittles wch yet make no variety . Thus the Translations ( being though more for the Peoples and Truths , but lesse for the Priests and Tythes turn ) I. O. is no great friend to them , but leaves them to shift for themselves , and inhaunces all the Errors in them to the height , and represents them through a magnifying and multiplying glasse ; But Transcriptions ( being the Linguists Letter , whereby he lives more to himself and the world then God and Christ ) I. O. patronizes them , and pleads and pinches all their impurities into Parvulas and Pauc●las ; Translations are none of the Doctors darlings , therefore he Defies rather then Deif●es or Dignifies them , so much as he does the other . At Pater ut gnati , sic nos debemus amici , Si quod sit vitium non fastidire , &c. As fathers call the deepest defects of speech in their children lisping , and their blear-ey'd Children blinkers and pinkan-eyes , so I. O. makes the best and the least of his Letters legible corruptions ; Transcriptions of the two being his best friend , that most helps and holds men up in Academical advantages , as T. D. uses to epitomize all the hol● Hypocrites iniquities into the diminutive denomination of the Saints infirmities , so I.O. diminishes all the grosse open faults of his Transcript Copies into frivolous failings of no force . Therefore let all these abovesaid be removed from that pretence , let not every , nor any varying word , Syllable , or Tittle in any Book that varieth from the common received Copy , though manifestly a mistake , superfluous , deficient , consistent , or inconsistent with the sense of the place , yea Barbarous , be imposed on us as such , it being not every variety or difference in a Copy that should presently be cryed up for a various Reading , p. 19● . 194. ( for that were to create a Temptation , that nothing is left sound and entire in the word of God , and so overthrow our Assertion which we stand so strictly to maintain ) and so to them tha rightly ponder things there will arise nothing at all to the prejudice of our Assertion , p. 193. yea then 't will quickly appear , p. 181. 201. 202. how small the number is of those varieties which may pretend unto any consideration under the state and Title of various Lections , and of how very little Importance they are to weaken in any measure , or impaire in the least the Truth of my former Assertion ( quoth he ) concerning the Care and Providence of God in the preservation of his Word , that is the Scripture with I. O. and every Tittle and Letter thereof . In all which sayings collectively considered , I.O. had as good have said in short , do but yield it , that all the varieties , mistakes , corruptions , barbarisms , of what sort or notion soever , fewer or more , greater or lesser , hurting or not hurting the sense of the place , old or new , by superfluity or defect of words , crept in from Heriticks , or however , are not varieties &c. and then our Assertion holds good and true ( viz , ) that there is none at all ; or thus , count not such as are of more and lesse importance , prejudicing or not prejudicing the sense , for corruptions , and then there will be found few or no corruptions in our Copies at all ; or thus forasmuch as they onely deserve to be considered as various Lections , where no mistake can be discovered as their cause , and these not to be admitted ( as such ) which are occasioned but by mistakes take away all that were but mistakes from that Title of various Lections , and all such too as were not mistakes , but evidently intended , as Expository of difficulties , or supplyed purposely to make out the sense of the places , p. 180. 181. 206. and then there will appear to be few or no various Lections ; or in a word , excepting all those that are , there 's none at all : As if a man that owes but twenty shillings , should say to his Creditor , bate me but twenty shillings and I 'le pay you all . But we must not let it go so I.O. by whole sale , though ( as Lot pleaded for little Zoar to be spared that his soul might live ) so thou for sparing the imposition and imputation of little impurities to thy Copies , that thy grand Assertion ( which else must dye ) may live , which is that in the least Syllable , Tittle , Letter , and Iota , thy Transcripts are true and entire , as the first Manuscripts , yet we must not separate from our Anti-Assertion the mentioning of the mistakes in Iods and Vau's , and Tittles , and Iota's , and Syllables , and Vowels , and single Letters , and such like , unlesse thou wilt remove from they Arch-Assertion , thy strict positive affirmings , that your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Copies contain every Iota and Tittle that was in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that Haebraea volumina nec in u●â dictione corrupta in●enienda sunt , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. not one Iot or Tittle of the Text passed from what ever was written by inspiration under the Law , and that ye have all , every Tittle without any losse , or any change , or alteration to the least Iota , or Syllable , and much more id genus , p. 13. 153. 173. 317. and if thou recede from , and recant that Reasonlesse Rigidity of thy Position about the truth of thy Text in Tittles , we shall supersede from our reasonable Reply to thee concerning the corruption and mistranscription of thy Text in sundry Tittles , in which it seems thou art forced to confesse to us that some Tittles are amisse ; for while thou standest so strictly upon the entirenesse of each Tittle , as thou sayest of the Jewes , p ▪ 240. so I of thee while thou keepest the Scripture we shall never want weapons out of thy own Armory for the destruction of thy haughty Assertion , like the Philistine thou carryest the weapon that will serve to cut off thy own head ; for while I.O. asserts the Text to be entire to every Tittle , wee 'l tell I.O. out of his own Book , that I.O. tells an untruth in that , for if I. O. be to be believed by himself , he o're and o're confesses mistakes in Tittles , Iots , Vowels , Syllables and single Letters But if I. O will agree to a cessation of Armes , and Arguments about Tittles , then we shall Restipulate with him there , and because he doth little lesse then cry Peccavi in that , and keeps such an imperious Begging and beseeching , that all varieties in Tittles , that are of no importance at all , may not be reckoned on as various Lections , I here 〈◊〉 him to wit , that we can here also afford well enough to abate him all different places in meer Tittles and Accents , that intrench not on the sense , and yet have enough left to lay sure siege with against his Assertion , if hee 'l hold it about matters of importance onely , and such as are inconsistent with , and intrench on the sense of the place , and that no further off then I.Os. , own Book , which ever furnishes us wherewith to answer him out of his own Armory , for in that p. 193 he writes thus of variety ( viz. ) those which are of importance have been already considered by others , especially Glassius ; and thus , p. 200. Let those be removed and not counted on that are deficient in words evidently necessary to the sense of their places , it evidently imports no lesse then this , that I.O. owns some varieties to be of importance , and such as do intrench on the sense in their stations , and so if we seclude all that are of lesse , or no importance with him , he stands still where he did , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , condemned and confounded every way where ever he flyes , or followes in the service of his Arch Assertion , if he had no man to fight against him besides himself : And if he say those of importance , and that intrench on the sense are but few : I say if any at all they are many enough ( upon his predicted principles ) to pluck up all the fabrick of his form of Religion , faith about Truth , and the very foundation it 's all framed upon by the roots , as to any certainty that he hath of his standing , while he stands leaning to no more but his naked Letter , and can plead their Original no higher then from the ticklish Transcripts of his pretended Original Text. And that this may appear , let what followes be serious considered by any , who have not utterly lost their understanding . 1. That the main Assertion I O. makes so much ado about the maintaining of is this ( viz. ) that though the first and immediate Manuscripts , and individual writings of Moses and the Prophets , the Apostles , and Evangelists are all utterly lost , and perished out of the world , p. 13. 163. 164. yet the Hebrew and Greek Copies of them that remain ex●ant at this day , do contain every Letter , Apex , Syllable , Accent , Iota , Tittle , Point , that was in them , without any addition of the Points , ablation , alteration , variation , change or corruption , by mistake or mis-transcription in the least , notwithstanding the hands of so many Transcribers as they have passed thorow ; and that the Text in the Original Languages hath been both promised to be and accordingly hath bin providentially preserved in Gods Love and care to his Word and Church , so that the same fate hath not attended the Scripture , as to mis-transcription or alteration any way in the Original Copies of it , through any miscarriages , mistakes , oscitancy , negligence , ignorance , sloth , carelesnesse , unfaithfulnesse , much lesse treacherousnesse in Transcribing thereof , as hath attended other Books in their Editions and Transcribings . p. 13. 14. 153. 155. 156. 164. 168. 170. 171. 173. 177. 203. 206. 213. 317. 319. in all these pages , and many more where the particularities of it are sprinkled up and down this general grand Position is to be apprehended as affirmed by him , and undertaken to be vindicated to a Tittle . 2. That this position is not onely thus punctually propounded by I.O. for Truth , but also avouched with that extremity , rigidity , and strictnesse , that it s made the very Basis of all true Belief , and of all that whole businesse that he calls divine , saving , sacred Truth , Religion , Worship , Knowledge , Service of God , duty of man towards him , &c. so that in case these his Thoughts , Apprehensions , Position and Assertion ( as he often calls it , p. 146. 149. 163. 181. 193. 202. 203. ) proves not true , firm , sound , but false , faulty and faultring , and if it ever appear that there are corruptions crept into the Text of Scripture by either the addition of the Hebrew points , Accents , or punctation since the beginning of the first writing thereof immediately from God , as a late novell invention of some Iudaical Rabbins , viz. the Tiberian Massorites by whom they are judged to have been added , or else by the oscitancy , carelesnesse , negligence , ignorance , treachery , weaknesse , or wilfulnesse of the Transcribers , mistaking , mis-transcribing , and thereby occasioning variations in the Copies of the Original , so that the Text of Scripture is not wholly pure and entire , or that we may if we please reject the Points and read otherwise , Actum est , Imus , Imus praecipites , what pernitious , what devious wayes must men run , scarce a Chapter , a Verse , a word , left free from perplexing contradicting conjectures , nothing but Fruitlesse Contests , nothing but humane fallible perswasion to be fixed on for the sense ; A firebrand is brought into the Churches bread-corn , the consequences are so desperate that he dares not mention them , he cannot but tremble to think what is the issue of this imagination of such a supposition , that the Points , Vowels , Accents , are no better guides then so ; it renders questionable the foundation of all , ejects as uselesse the whole Scripture , it 's a pestilent poysonsome undervaluing the Originals , crept in now among Protestants themselves ( though this comfort is left , yet that the generality of learned Protestants are not yet infected with this Leven ) but if it should by a change of Iudgement break in so on the Protestant world , as to be avowed in publike works , the end will be a frightning poor unstable souls , into the hands of the pretended infallible guide , a return to Rome under the pretence of the Scriptures corruption in the Original Text , as there was a passing from thence under the purity thereof , yea 't is not known whether this inconvenience will grow ; yea once suppose corruptions crept into the Original Text , and the pretended novelty of the Hebrew punctuation , and then the wells and fountains from whence ye should draw all your soules refreshment are utterly stopt , Ep : p. 19. 20. so p. 196. 206. 207. 208. 209. 212. 213. 214. 215. 216. 218. 219. 220. 221. better all the works like to the Biblia Polyglotta were out of the world , then this opinion of the ●Texs non-integrity to a Tittle , or the novelty in Points should be embraced with its consequences that unavoidably attend it , that if those seeming difficulties of Scripture to reconcile , wch some look on as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or irreconcileable , though some learned Iewes and Christians have been well exercised , to reconcile and give fair account of them , may by a liberty given be looked on as corruptions , how ye shall be able to stay till ye come to the bottom of questioning the whole Scripture , he knows not , p. 347. 3. Let it be considered how eminently he stands concerned upon the confession that his foundation is not firm , in case a Tittle of the Text be wanting , or the Points added to it since its first giving out , to make it out , not probably onely , but unquestionably clear and certain , that the Text hath every Tittle and Iota , and that the Points are no novelty , but of equall Antiquity with the Text it self , or else begin again with the Qua. at his A.B.C. in the things of God , and lay a surer bottom for his building and foundation for his Faith , then ever he hath laid to this day . 4. Whether I. Os proof be infallible ; or but fallible , of Divine certainty or meer humane conjecture , self-conceit , thought , apprehension , and imagination onely , and whether the Text be so firm and entire to a Tittle , as he affirms it to be , yea rather that it is not , let it be considered by all , who read my examination of it , in this now welnigh ended exercitation , wherein the contrary is both apparently and abundantly evidenced ; his whole Regiment of Reasons by him rendred in proof thereof disproved , and all that defensive stragling straw that hangs about them dispelled as chaffe , as not onely falling short of infallible scientifical demonstration , but also as not amounting to so much as a probable evidence that either the Points are coaevous w●●h the Consonants ( which is sometimes no lesse then asserted ) or so high as Ezra ( which is undertaken to be manifested ) and are not rather a novelty , no elder then the Massorites ) which with such affrightments at the consequences of such a Clergy-confounding conclusion is denyed , and yet ( as to that reviving thereof , whereby we now enjoy them ) acknowledged also by I O. ) or that the Text is in its most Original Copies wherein we now have it , is the same as at first it was , without any various Lections , or unchanged . Thus I have traced after I.O. in his Treatings and twinings too and fro , in vindication of the integrity of his Greek and Hebrew Text , and have evidently proved that there are not onely many whole Books of that Scripture , which holy men were moved to write both before and since Christ , wanting to his compleated Canon ( as he calls it ) but also that there are many mistakes in those Books that are , out of his own hand writing , which is no better then snares and bands , a certain piece of contradictory net-work of his own composing , to the catching and binding down himself , wherein he hangs hampered , intangled , and tumbled up and down in his own fruitlesse contests , fallible perswasions , and perplexing self-contradicting conjectures , so that there 's scarce a Chapter , or so much as a Lection in it , fully free from , or rather not fully fraught with some or other of his uncertain conceits , and certain confusions about the defending of his Assassinated Assertion , one while Asserting and striving stiffly to maintain it in the very rigidity , universality , and utmost strictnesse of it , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. not the Iot or Tittle of the Original Text is added , altered , lost , mis-transcribed ; sometimes Assenting to the contrary , onely begging that all various Lections ( of what sort soever , one or other without exception ) may be excepted from the account of various Lections , and then Asserting that his Assertion ( on that condition ) will stand entire , concerning the entirenesse and integrity of his Text to a very Tittle . Now then since it is so 〈◊〉 at the outward Letter of the Scripture not only in its Translations , which I.O. himself Asserts to be so universally altered and corrupted from the Originals , but a little also in its Copies of the Original is by I.Os. own confession both so abundantly altered by the addition of the Points since the first writing , and the Variations of so many severall kinds as himself enumerates , and at best so easily so infinitly alterable , as that at the wills of men exercising their critical faculties about the Text , it may by Transposition and Transcription of one Letter for another , or supposition , and subscription of one Vowel for another , be turned divers contrary wayes , and subverted in its sense so exceedingly , that some one word ( instancing in that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ep. p. 24. ) may ( as it may be pointed or printed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afford no lesse then eight severall senses as distant from one another as life and death ; seeing also , that there is no relief against all that huge heap of uncertainty , that is found among the founders that are continually confounded within themselves , about their sickle foundation ( unlesse they will be perswaded to come to that firm in●allible sure foundation , and inalterable Rule of all Truth , the light , word , and spirit of God in the heart ) but their own vain , empty groundlesse , confused thoughts , imaginations , conceits , fancies , fallible perswasions and opinions , taken up by Tradition from each others Tomes , Treatises , Targums , and Talmudical twatlings , as if there were neither Light , nor Spirit , nor word of God throughout the whole world , whereby any soul saving Truth can possibly come to be known , or entertained at any certainty , further then the Text-t●ining Text-men tell and teach it forth , either by their Oral● Talkings for Tythe , or manifold Translatings of it out of their ( falsely supposed ) entirely Transcribed Copies . Shall we then think because I O. to the contradiction of himself so thinks , and imposes his own thoughts on us as uncontroulable proofs , that there is no variation in the Copies we have from the first Manuscripts of the Scripture , but that they are come to us without the least interveniency of any such mediums or wayes as are capable of giving change or a●teration , or obnoxious to fallibility in the least Syllable or Iota , p. 10. 153. or that the some varieties that I. O confesses R. Aaron and R. Moses found in their exact consideration of the Bible , were small and of no importance to the sense of any word , p. 179 ▪ especially since with I.O. ( if a body might take his Tattle for Truth ) every Letter , Tittle , Iota there Transcribed was a part of the word , yea no lesse then the Word of the great God , wherein the eternall concernment of all soules doth●l●e . p 168. 169 ? Shall we think because I.O. thinks so p. 17. that there is not any colour or , pretence , nor any tollerable evidence from all the discrepancies in the Copies themselves that are extant , that there ever were any other in the least differing from these extant in the world ? Shall we think , because I. O ▪ so thinks , p. 181. 193. that all that yet appears impairs not in the least the Truth of his Assertion , that every Tittle and Letter that was in the Original Copies remaines in the Copies of the Original to this day without any losse , or any alteration , or passing away of one iot thereof , and that with them that rightly ponder things abovesaid , there thence ariseth nothing at all to the prejudice of that his so often o're and o●re again affirm'd Assertion ? And if men must deal by instances in this case ( as he sayes ) and not by conjectures ( though himself gives us no instance of any one Copy , of which he can say , unlesse he had the Autographa by him , that it agrees every Accent and Syllable therewith , upon any better ground then his own bare conjectures ) yet if I had not given him instance enough of whole words , verses , books , prophesies , &c. lost of inspired mens Scriptures , doth not I.O. himself give us instan●es enough of variety of Lection , to the assuring us of the falsenesse of his first Assertion ? which instances of his own insisting on are obvious to all Readers of his Book , and believed by us to be true , rather then his idle talk to the contrary , of his Texts integrity to a Tittle : And is there any reason ( as he sayes of himself and his adherents , Ep. p. 28 ) that we should be esteemed Ridiculous , because believing our own eyes we will not believe the Testimony of I.O. imagining otherwise then the case is according to his own instances , dealing by conjectures against his own instances , a man deservedly of no credit with us , running in ridiculous rounds , and asserting that to be Truth , which we know from his own Book to be utterly false ? Shall we think that the literal Text in the very Transcripts he so talk● for , is any other then he cals it , as to its most ancient Translation , a corrupt stream , a Lesbian ●ule p. 15. 16 or any other then some call it a nose of wax , no certain stable 〈◊〉 , or standard to try all Truth by , & guide throughout in the knowledge of the will of God ? Shall we think , because I.O. thinks so strangely , that so corruptible and corrupted a stream as the meer Letter now is , since vitiated and interpolated , can be judged a fit means to judge the fountain by ( i. e ) the Light Word and Spirit it came from ? and a fit measure to correct , and authoritatively to examine and determine those Originals by ? Shall we think , because I.O. hath and uttereth such high and hyperbolical thoughts apprehensions and affirmations of his Transcripts , and Greek and Hebrew Copies , and the absolute integrity thereof to a Tittle , that the sole and final dissolution , determination and discovery of all saving doctrine , and distinct discerning , and knowledge of all sacred Truth from cunningly devised fables , does d●●●rd ●holly and alone upon the outward Greek and Hebrew writing , and Scripture of it , and that so necessarily and eternally , that upon any corruption supposed therein , that Truth & Doctrine can't unquestionably be supposed to c●●●●ue entire and uncorrupt , but must be consequently supposed to be without any other principle , means , rule , or measure of judging , recovering , rectifying it , and to be for ever ; ●medil●sly brought to nought , p. 18. 68. Shall we think , because I O. so thinks , and s●lli●y supposes so , that to suppose corruptions to have befallen his undoubtedly , yea confessedly corrupted Copies , and the same fate to have befallen the Hebrew and Greek Bible in its Transcribing , that hath befallen other Books in theirs , is a Plea unreasonable in it self , devoid of all reall ground of Truth , injurious to the Love and Care of God over his Word and Church , in a high degree , and an imagination bordering on Atheism , asserted on deliberation , p 18. 173 ? Surely the improvidence , oscitancy , negligence , ignorance , unskilfulnesse , and carelesnesse that may as groundedly be supposed to have been ( if there was never so much care and diligence in others of them ) in some of the Scribes that have copied out the Scriptures , as well as in some Printers that have printed them , and in some Transcribers of Heathen Authors , and the non-evidence of any promise of God to take any of the Scripture Transcribers under such a loving Care and Aspect as I.O. ascribes to them ; and I O's own concession of them , being not any of them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , infallible , but under possibilities of mistakings , and I O's confessions , and grants , and acknowledgements , that known failings have been amongst them , and that various Lections are from thence risen , 167 169. and that some of those are of importance , consisting of superfluity , and redundancy of unnecessary ; and deficiency of necessary words , which is destructive to the sense , and arising out of Copies apparently corrupted , and notoriously corrupted by old Hereticks , and many more matters then are fit to repeat o're again , do require other thoughts at our hands . Shall we think because I.O. so thinks , & very cogitantly ( but little cogently to us ) conjectures that if the Points be mans invention , and the Text under alteration ( as undoubtedly it is , and therefore all the Priests Religion , who live on the naked Texts , and their own Traditions , and not the Truth it self is at a losse however ) that then all is likely immediately , utterly and remedilesly to perish for ever , viz. Church , Word of God , Doctrine , Truth , certainty of the Gospel , Gods promise , Providence , and care of his eternal incorruptible , good and acceptab●e mind , will and pleasure , Life , Spirit , Light , Law ? yea that all this and much more is little lesse then eternally undone , ( as to our knowledge of them ) so that God himself can find no other sufficient means ( having tryed already , quoth I.O. the insufficiency of all other before ) to save all these thing from corrupting , but that of a perishing , uncertain flexible , at mans will fallible , changeable , meer dead , to the light novell , corruptible , mou●d●ing , and in its first Manuscripts already long since mou'dred , moth eaten and corrupted Letter ? p. 12. surely the promise of God for the preservation of his word ( which was before the Letter , and will be after it induring for ever , so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one jot or Tittle of it shall never fail , what ever become of all the jots and Tittles of the Letter ) and his Providence , Love , and Care of his Church , of whose faith and obedience that word of his in the heart and not the Letter , both was , now is , and ever will be , the onely Rule , require other thoughts at our hands , p. 173. Shall we think ( because I.O. fa●sly so thinks ) that such a fallible , flexible , alterable , and corruptible thing , as the Letter is , by I. O's own confession not in its Translations onely , but in the very Original Transcripts , which is the onely businesse he is so busie about , and so bestirs himself to bustle for , is that which can justly claim and supreamly challenge to it self those preheminent Titles , excellent properties , extraordinary effects , peculiar prerogatives , marvellous successes &c. which I. O attributes thereuunto throwout his first English Treatise , and Latine ●hes● also ? wherein , under that glorious name of the Word of God , by which yet ( as by that which he undertakes to prove to be it's proper name , he as , if not more ordinarily denominates it , then by its own and one●y proper name of Scripture ) he magnifies the Text , as to those Hebrew and Greek Copies of it he is pleased to crown as the Canon , and set his stamp upon as the Standard ( while he stigmatizes not onely all Translations as mens own Altars , and altered things , that must not stand as the Standard by the Posts , and high Altar of his said unalterable Copies , but other Copies also , as novel , spurious , and no●●●iously corrupted ; ) above all that hath any being under God , insomuch that he cannot likely utter more concerning it in way of exaltation , unlesse he should extoll it so far , as to stile it God himself . So I have done at present with I. O's unprofitable prate , about the preciousnesse , profitablenesse , and divine Original of his high prized possession of the Hebrew punctation ; and with his peremptory Post●●n , and absolutely absurd Assertion , of the non-corruption of his Canonized Copies of the Original Text to a Tittle , which howbeit I have scarce gone above half so far as I might , in discovering the deep dotage and folly , that is to be found in his mingled management , and miserable mang●nization of those matters , yet I have gone farther by the hall then I should have done , considering how far off all such husky , chaffy accomplishments , as those Pedantick parts of the Letter , are from that wherein the Life of God chiefly lyes , viz. the Spirit , Light , and Word that 's nigh in the heart , and how little concernment the more substantial parts of the meer outward Text are of thereto , in comparison of them , much more such Accidentals , as the meer figure of the Accents and Vowels , But onely that I found I.O. manifesting his foppery so far , as to render these Ticklish things of such eminent Tendency to the saving knowledge of all sacred Truth , as to give them out to be the most reall Rule , stable standard , Gospel guides , grand ground , chief infallible foundation of all ; in which respect , though otherwise it is little lesse then loathsome to me to leave the life I live in the en●oyment of my self with God , to meddle so much in such muddy matters ; yet , in service to the Truth , and in love to the soules of the Schoolmen and Scribes , that they may see the sandy fickle f●undation they build and found all their faith upon in the business of eternal consequence , which is no better then the uncertain thoughts , conceits and conjectures of men , about shapes of Letters , Points & Iota's . I was ( contrary to my own first intentions , carried forth to such prolixity in this matter , wch I conclude in this manner . Where the foundation of the faith is utter uncertainty , there the faith can be ( according to I.O. ) no more then meer fancy and uncertainty . But so are the Points , as to their Original , and so are the Transcript Copies of the Original Text , as to its entirenesse and integrity ( I appeal to I. O's own Book , and all rationall Readers of it and mine ) which Points and Text are by I.O. and his School fellows made the Canon , Rule , Guide , Touchstone , Standard and sure foundation , p. 154. 155. of all that faith and obedience , which God requireth at their hands . Therefore their faith toward God , as yet , is no more then meer fancy and uncertainty . The Third Apologetical , and Expostulatory Exercitation . CHAP. I. THough much more might be said I.O. to many of thy matters behind mentioned , yet having sufficiently swept away sundry of thy Figments and false Aspersions of the Qua. in vindication of them , and turned thy lyes in plain English upon thy self , which thou laidst in Latine upon them , about their rejecting of the Scriptures , and taken some useful notice of the bounds and first constitution and consignation of that ye call your Canon , and of what thou foolishly and falsly affirmes● of the Hebrew punctation of the Bible , and the entireness of the Text to a tittle , as at first : I shall come to some consideration of many more of thy cloudy , crooked conceptions of it , and of those many false tales ( whether not as much to the dishonoring of it in truth , as to the honoring of it in pretence , sith thou placest it unduely in the Throne of Christ , let the Reader judge ) thou very confidently tellest for Truth of the Scripture it self ; which seeing thou art first appearing in the field against the Qu who are its true friends , my business , who appear also for it as well as thee , and to state it in as high Authority as ( Salvá Christi ipsius eminentiâ ) it may honestly stand in , without High Treason to the Supremacy , Crown and Dignity of Christ , and his Light and Spirit , will lye mostly in reducing it from that Throne and supream Seat of Judicature on which thou set'st it utterly against the will of Christ revealed in it , into its due place of a subordinate servant in the Church , where , as a Writing , it summons all to come to him , the Light , the onely Iudge , Lord and Law-giver , that 's able to save and destroy , who by his Light sits in the conscience of all , to try all for life or death , searching the heart and reins , to give to every one according to their wayes , works , and fruit of their doings , and t●en what thou displacest will stand all in its due rank and proper order . Thy Grand Assertion then of the Scripture , unto which all almost of the other that thou predicatest of it is , as it were , but subordinate , and some of it subservient to the proof of ; as also it is subservient to the proofe of some of that , whereof yet some is so promiscuously , in such a confused way of mingle mangle , treated out , that one can't tell well whether it be proprounded in proof of the Scriptures being the Word of God , or the Scriptures being the Word of God , is made demonstrative of that ; yea the same things are sometimes interchangeably praedicated in mutual proof of each other : For to prove the Scripture to be the Word of God , thou urgest its self evidencing efficacy and power , and to prove it to be living , efficacious , and powerful , thou urgest it s being so from places , that speak onely of the Word of God , not the Letter of it ; and many more such like ratelled pieces of proof there are in thy unhewn handy-work ; But I say , the Grand Assertion thou prosecutest the proof of thorowout thy first English Treatise , and much what in the first Exer●itation , is this , viz. that as to Name and thing the Scripture properly is THE WORD OF GOD : And having hous'd it under this high title , and in thy own crooked conceit of it , crouded it by fowl , more then fair means , and by force of Arms , [ as I may say ] more then force of honest Arguments , under the starely Canopy of that super-eminent Compellation , thou afterwards callest it on that account , many things more , so much as one of which it is not ; yea consequently , any thing , every thing that the Word of God it self alone [ and not the Scripture ] truly is , and by right onely is to be called . First then , thou I.O. affirmest of the Scripture , the Letter of it , that it is the Word of God , in esse Reali , & in esse cognoscibili , i.e. not onely so , but known so to be , and that as to name and thing , [ i.e. ] That as in its nature it truly and properly is so , so that glorious title of the WORD of God is its own due Right , true proper Name , which the Qua. denying to it , and seeking to draw it [ in discrimen nominis ] into a difference in name from , do no less then divest and spoil the Scripture of its proper Name : And this thou sayest , Ex. L.S. 2 , 3 is the work which the Quakers rejoice at that it is committed to them by Satan , for which onely thou takest them to do , as if thou hadst no more to do with them , nor they with thee , then de Scripturae nomine proprio , as thou there speakest , and as if the Qua. did yeild the Scripture to be the Word of God , and had nothing against its being so , as to its proper nature , and yet would not endure to allow it to be called by its own proper Name , that is most answerable to its own Nature . Rep. Not too fast at first [ Friend ] least what thou writest in haste , thou come to repent by leisure : Thou mistakest thy self very much as to thy busie busling with the Qua. who may possibly find thee more work then thou art aware of , before they whom thou beginst to lash , and lash out against in thy Latine Cover-Cloath , have done with thee : They seeke not meerly to bring the Scripture , to which they ever allow its own proper name , ( in discrimen nominis ) back to its own Name , from those many new-found-names , not due to it , but to the Word , it s the Writing of , from which Word in the Night your Fore-fathers have stole them , to stile it by ; but also [ in discrimen Rei ] to manifest it to be what it really is , and no more then what it is , to you and others , who not onely call it , but count it to be what it truly is not . The Qua. are not such Idiots yet , as to rob any things ( as you do many ) of their own proper Names ; nor so foolishly Fanatical , and Fantastical , as to spend their time in inanibus logomachijs , or onomamachij● , so , but that if thou canst prove the Scripture to demonstrate it self infallibilite● , Ex. 1. S. 1. infallibly and uncontroulably , pag. 34. to be the Word of God , as thou undertakest to evince , but ad Graecas Calendas , to morrow come never [ as they say ] thou wilt do , and not before , they will then freely grant it to be call'd so , whose work with thee and all men , is to have all things first known to be what they are in their proper nature● , and then call'd by those proper Names that are agreeable to those natures . Though then we deny the Scripture to be called by that of The Word of God , as its proper Name , yet it is upon this account , because neither thou nor any man in the world is able to prove it to be so in its proper nature ; whereupon , howbeit we eternally own the Word of God properly so to be , and infallibly , and incontroulably evidencing it selfe so to be , and that it ought ( as by its own proper name ) to be called the Word of God , which ( if thy tottering ragged way of Argumentation , wherein thou ten , if not twenty times over , and more , inadvertently , and contrarily to all Rules of true Disputations , transposest thy t●rms , making the Word of God both thy subject and the praedicate also , which thou often praedicatest of it self , be well observed ) thou belabourest thy self to prove against I know not whom to be evidently , and to be called properly the Word of God ; and howbeit we also own the Word of God to be all those other things , viz Foundation , Rule , Light , Touchstone , Witnes● of God , onely means , of the saving knowledge of God , most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , quickening power , power of God to salvation , and many more by which thou denominatest it : Nevertheless that the Scripture , or outward Writing , or external text , of either your Copies of the Original , or the Original Copies , which you have not now in the world , much more that the text of any Translation thereof into other tongues , or the English tongue either , which is all that poor English people have , who are no higher learnt , as to Earthly Languages , then their Mother-tongue : much more that every tittle , Iota , and Apex of any of these , as thou Apishly contendest it is , in your Transcripts at least , pag. 168 , 169. is either the Word of God , or any ●ther of those things , or properly to be called by that of the VVord of God , by which yet thou streinest a point to call it , and dost o're and o're , either under that term , the VVord , or that of the Scripture , which is onely properly its own ; this is that which I am here entering the Lists with thee about , and am to the undeceiving of both Powers and People of this Nation , who by your sophistical sorceries are bewitcht into a blinde Opinion about both the truth , and the Qua. who hold it out in that particular , notwithstanding thy pretensive proofs to disprove against thee . Nevertheless , before I can yet come immediately to the examination of thy proofs in particular , in order to the disproof thereof , or to thy own holding out of any thing to the contrary ; so many , great , and gross are the absurdities and illegalities of thy manner of Disputation in proof of this business , viz. that the Scripture , both as to name and thing , is , and is infallibly and undeniably known to be the Word of God ; that I may not honestly pass on here without a discovery to all men of thy most illegitimate and downright dishonest dealing , in thy driving on of thy Argumentation in●order to the evincing thereof in sundry particulars , which I shall exhibit to the view of all men under this one general head , viz. thy unworthy Begging of the main question in hand , which thou takest upon thee to prove , as well in thy English Treatise upon that subject , which thou sayest thou hadst preached on , which [ as published ] is a Dispute too , for the Scriptures , as in thy Latine illogical , and Theological Disputations , or Apologeticals pro Scripturis , in both the one and the other of which , thou never keepest close to thy main terms , which ought never to be altered in any legal Disputation , but both changest and confoundest them together , even the Grand subject , that is , the Scripture and the Grand Praedicate of it , that is , the Word of God , almost as often as thou hast to do with them ; insomuch that thy Tr●ctations and Transactions for , and about the outward Letter , or Text of the Scriptures , which are the subject from whence thy Latine , and thy English works in their Title . Pages both bear their main denominations of Vindication of , and Apologies for the Texts of the Scripture , the proof of which , to be the known , pure , perfect , powerful , living , spiritual , saving , necessary , unalterable , unchanged , uncorrupted &c. Word of God , is thy main professed work , scope , drift , and intent thoroughout them , are such an indistinct , term-transposing Argumentation , such a ●●agonized mess of male proof , such an underboard piece of double-dealing , as proclaims its Author , as well to such as know him by neither , as to such as know him both by name and face , to be one that dur● not play above-board , but digged as deep as he well durst , for fear of being too much dis●ryed in his deceit on the other hand , to hide his counsel , that he might be the less noted in his turnings of things up-side-down , that having once put apart as two specifically different things , the Scripture or its Doctrine ; whereof one was to be his main subject , the other his main praedicate throughout his disputation , durst not keep them clearly asunder , as he should have done all along in his premises , till he came to his Conclusion in which onely if at all ) they were by right to be joined , nor speak of them constantly Sigillatim , as of two things formally , seperated in their nature , & to be seperated in their names , till the one he infallibly or plainly proved to be the other , ( viz. ) the Scripture to be the Word of God , and the Word of God to be the Scriptures ; But being jealous whether things might grow to the disadvanta●● or hazard of hi cause in question , and utter loss of his positive assertion of the Scriptures to be the Word of God if he should , was afraid to speak plain : & so I believe thou I.O. art to utter thy meaning too openly , or speak thy mind out too distinctly , and so chusest to prosecute thy proofs the more promiscuously , and to carry thy ill cause on the more confusedly , by the shifting and changing of thy terms ever and anon , and to beg the question in hand , or take it for granted before it be given thee , that the Scripture is the Word , & to supplant and forestall thy Reader with thy often , or ordinary crouding of these each under the other's Name , and indifferent denominatings of them each by the other , as Synonomae● , before thy time : ( i.e. ) Before thou hast proved the name of the one at all proper to the other , by the one 's true participation of the others essential properties or nature ; so that ● like the Fis● Caepia , that being pursued by its adversaries , flings a flood of black inky stuff behind it , to hide it self from being seen and taken ) by a blind blending , and cloudy confounding of things together , which being treated of formaliter , and discoursed of divisim each under its own peculiar form , and proper name and nature , both thy own folly , and the falseness of thy propositions , should be discovered , yea by pidling and pedling , and playing fast and loose , thou seem'st to puzzle the minds , and put out the eyes of such as shall ever prosecute thee for thy rotten principles : insomuch that I may truly say of thee , what thou untruly utterest concerning the Qua. pag. 69. of thy Latine Tract , viz. Quaenam sit horum hominum sententia haud facile quis declarabit , &c. And so mutatis mutandis turning all thy Verbs out of the 3 d. person , Plural , into the 2 d. person , singular ; ) I may safely sing back to thee in thy own words , as follows , viz. * What thy mind J.O. is in this Question , Whether the Scripture be the Word of God , or no , one can hardly declare ; for besides that thou agreest not with thy self , thou dost so foolishly and nauseously prate in the opening of thy mind and meanings , and playest about in words of an uncertain and dubious signification ; and usest for the most part certain forraign phrases , containing no s●und sence that can well be understood by any that are well in their wits , which are enough either to astonish or bewitch unskilful men ; so that it 's more easie to confute thy Arguments , then conceive thy meaning ; yea , when thy Opinion is so foul and dishonest , that if the fair pretences and covers be removed , and it distinctly unfolded , it sufficiently destroyes it self amongst all honest men , that are not openly dishonest ; endeavouring what thou canst so delude , either thou speakest is not out openly , or else manglest it to pieces in such a sticht and patcht up forme of speech , that can signifie well-nigh nothing at all ; and so darkening thy Counsel by words without knowledge , thou seemest to be afraid of nothing more , then least thou shouldst be understood . In such wise as this I.O. dost thou proceed in thy present Paper Works that are now under Examination , having in thy hast heedlesly uttered forth some faucied high-flown falsities about the bare Letter , and meer outside of the Scriptures , and every Tittle and transcribed Iota thereof , viz. That these are the true spiritual Light , and Authoritative , Powerful Word of God , and such like ; and after fearing the falshood of such forward expressions , from which ( as most of thy fellow wise men are in the like case , who though they are foolish and ignorant enough , yet of all things in the world are loath to seem , and even abhor to be accounted so to be ) thou art ashamed totally to recede and recant , so as altogether to go back , which rather then do , when ye are once over Shooes , thou and thy generation chuse to be over Boots also , thou staggerest and reelest now this way , now that ; and to mend and moderate the rigidity of thy Positions about the Scripture , for the saving of thy credits sake , as far ( Salva cel●itudinis ac celeberrimae sapientiae t●ae gloriâ as is consistent with thy credit another way , thou wheelest about , and frequently foisting in the Predicate into the place of the Subject , and that Term , the Word of God , in the room where this Term only , viz. the Scripture should stand , even while thou art but in thy proof of the Scripture to be the Word , thou darknest thy counsel by words utterly without knowledge , and rendrest thy self ambedextrously and ambiguously , that thy Reader may not well read thy meaning in what thou writest , nor whether when thou avowest the Scripture to be the Word of God , and powerful , &c. thou intend'st the Scripture it self , that one individual thing call'd the Letter , or Writing , which alone is the very formality of the Scripture , or the other individual thing , which is not at all the outward Scripture , though so called often by thee , viz. That Word of which the Scripture only speaketh ; for one while thou singlest out that grand subject of thy Dispute , i. e. the Scripture , and setting it apart from the Doctrine , Faith , Divine Truth , and VVord it writes of ; seemest as if all along thou wouldest discuss the things thou praedicatest of it , under that single notion of its being an external Writing , apart from the Doctrine , and Word of Faith written of therein , as Tr. 1 C. 1. S. 12 , 13. expressing thy self thus , viz. not onely the Doctrine in it , but the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the very writing , writings , book it self is so , and so ; thereby leading thy Reader up and down by the Nose , up into the air , into a high expectation of thy handling the Scripture formally , ( quatenus Scripta ) as a Writing , as written , which is the onely subject promised to be treated on , and for , in the Title pages , and of thy proving it as such● to be the Word , and mighty power of God ; from whence thou tumblest him down again , and frustrating those his former expectations , other while , conjangletim thou jumblest these two as Synonomaes into one , in many such , or the like expressions , viz. the writing , or w●rd written ; the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or the Doctrine as written : and Tr. 1. C. 4. S. 2. the Scripture , or written VVord of God : and S. 6. Now the Scripture , the VVord of God is light , the innate Arguments that the Word of God is furnisht withall for its own manifestation , contain the full or formal grounds of our answer to that question why we receive the Scripture , [ see how these terms are twisted one into another ] to be the word of God , Tr. 1. C. 4 . S. 1. Thus thou usest them so promiscuously , as if they being with thee entirely one , 't were indifferent , and no matter at all which of the two thou expressest thy self by , saying sometimes the Scripture is a light , a moral and spiritual , not a natural Light , as Tr. 1 C. 4. S. 8 , 9. The Scripture makes a proposition of it self as the VVord of God , Tr. 1. C. 4. S. 14. for the proof of the Divine Authority of the Scriptures , if the Booke be brought to him or them that acknowledge it not , &c. the VVord [ there thou goest off again ] left with them , it will evidence it self , S. 15. The Scripture it enroll'd among things that are able to evidence themselves , S. 16 , 17. I● ( i.e. the Scripture ) is absolutely called the Power of God , S. 18. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament do abundantly , and uncontroulably manifest themselves to be the Word of the living God ; so that meerly upon that account of their proposal of themselves to us in the Name and Majesty of God , as such , without contribution of help or assistance from any thing else without themselves , we are obliged upon the penalty of eternal damnation , as all are to whom by any means they came , or are brought to receive them with that submission of soul which is due to the Word of God , T. 1. C. 2. S. 5. The Scripture being brought unto us , it doth evidence it self infallibly to our Consciencet , to be the Word of the living God , T. 1. C. 4. S. 2. If the Question be , VVhether the Doctrines proposed to be believed , are truths of God , or fables , we are sent to the Scripture it self , and that alone to give the determination . T. 1. C. 3. S. 16. Surely men will not say the Scripture hath its power to command in the Name of God , from anything but it self , T 1. c 2. s. 6. Them that own the Booke whereof we speak , to be the Word of God , T. 1. c. 3. s. 12. How know we that the Scripture is the Word of God ? How may others come to be assured thereof ? the Scripture , say we , beares testimony to it self , that it is the Word of God , T. 1. c. 4. s. 31. And in thy two Treatises which treat all along of the Text , thou tellest it more loud-lye , that every letter and tittle that they were transcribing , and to be transcribed of the Old Testament by the Jews , was part of the Word , nay the Word of the great God , wherein the eternal concernment of souls doth lye . These , and much more , ejusdem furfuris , are the wayes wherein thy minde makes out it self sometimes ; sometimes again as if thou wert somewhat sensible of having not a little overshot thy self by thy too too eminent expressions , and lofty undertakings for the naked scriptures , which can never possibly be made good of them , to palliate all thy proud boastings , and broad shews , and too too ample settings out of a bare body , or bulk of Letters , and ●●ward Writings , thou drawest thy neck out of the Collar wherein it hung , slylie flink'st away , and shrinkest back , standing like Caesar at Rubicon , with one foot over he Dote-fel , and the other on this side , saying , Yet I may go on ; and by and by , Yet I may go back , not resolved which way to betake thy self , whether to go on in thy high and hasty undertakings for the Scripture upon that old single score of its being but barely Scripture , least thy proof should not hold at so high a rate ; or whether to double thy files by bringing them two both into one again , that were sometime sundred , viz. the Scripture , and the Doctrine or Word of truth it treats of ; the outward Writing , and the Word of Faith within that is written of , which could not be made appear , consider'd sigillatim , or apart , to be both of them the Word of God ; and at last , though that be bad enough , there being no better way in the sight of one that loving the praise of men more then the praise of God , is loath among men to be mock't at , as the builder that begins , and cannot carry it to an end , having another string to thy Bow , thou strengthenest thy weake business what thou art able , & furtively clapping a greater glory , light , power and honour in respect of titles , about that dark , dead , weak and naked body of the writings , then that which considered by it self , it can duely and lawfully challenge [ Notwithstanding thy unwary assertions not onely elsewhere , but also Ex. 1. S. 26 , 27. viz. That scriptura hoc verbi Dei nomen sibi vendica● : The scripture challengeth this Name of the Word of God , unto it self ] even that of the inward living Word of God it self , to which alone all that glory , and those glorious Names by right are due , and not to the Letter , and were due before the Letter was ; when thou hast laid the true , unchangeable , inward truth , and Word of God , instead of the Letter , the outward , and thy outwardly beloved Changeling , and subtilly shrowded it under that name and notion of the Word of God , which is the very thing in question , and the name to be disputed on , whether it be due to it or no , and is as much still denied by us , as it is by a piece of sophistical thievery taken by thee to be its undoubted right , before it be either proved by thee , or by us , or any but Ignoramus himself , granted to the●● Then O come let us sing a new song , thou marchest forward again 〈◊〉 , driving on thy self same Old Dispute , concerning a new stol'n different Subject , which is now prest to serve as both thy Subject , and thy praedicate , and to supply the proper place of both , which being denominated and praedicated all along of it self , all thou sayest of it is most undoubtedly true , and uncontroulably thou carryest all clear before thee , crying it up to this purpose , viz. that of a truth the Word of God is a light , the Word of God is living , the word of God is perfect , of Divine Authority , the Word is the most glorious light in the world , a shining , illuminating light preferr'd ab●u● that of the sun , &c. * the Word of God is furnisht with innate Arguments for its manifestation of it self , i e. to be the Word of God ; † There is in the dispensation of the Word , an evidence of truth commending it self ●● the consciences of men , some receive not this evidence , is it for want of Light in the Truth it self ? No , that is a glorious Light that shines into the hearts of men : * Where-ever the Word comes , by what means soever , it hath in it self a sufficiency of Light to evidence it self to all , that Authority of God its Author : ( Which Authority is with I.O. its power to command , as the Word of God. ) The Word makes a sufficient proposition of it self , where-e ver it is : He that hath the witness † of God , need not stay for the witness of man : * for the Witness of God is greater . Where-ever the Word is received indeed , as it requireth it self to be received , and is really assented to , at the Word of God , it hath its power of manifesting it self so to be , from its own innate Light ; thy VVord is Truth , &c. s. 14. Thou hast magnified over all th● Name , the Word thou hast spoken : the Name of God is all that whereby he makes himself known , yet over all this God magnifies ●his Word &c. T. 1. C. 4. sect . 15. Leave the Word with men , and is it evidence not it self unto their consciences , it is because they are blinded . In all which sentences , and many more that might be mentioned , there 's no mention of the scriptures by the old true Term of the scriptures , though that Name is interwoven too , in wel-nigh every page , to denote , that although the Discourse that is in proof of their being the Word of God , is driven on in their behalf under that new Name of the Word of God , yet by that word , the Word , we may know that by I.O. the Scriptures are still intended ; but as if the sole use of that single Name of Scriptures , might prove too weak a term to venture the stress of the whole Cause upon , and too empty an Engine to carry it by , it s carryed along also under that more trusty term of the Word of God , by which Name I.O. by a thing call'd Petitio Principij , granting himselfe leave to call the Let ter before it 's given undertakes to prove it to be the Word of God , and most uncontroulably proves it so to be , so far as the Letter he calls the Word of God , is really so , though ( for all his seeming to himself to have won all ) not one jot farther then it s so indeed , & that indeed is not at all ; having gotten such a noun substantive as the true Word of God is , which can stand by it self under its own Name of the VVord of God , without objection , in all propriety of speech and signification , and is every way able to evidence it self to be the VVord of God , and is seen , felt , heard , of them that heed it , and understood & not denyed so to be by the Qua. to stand by his noun adjective assertion of the scripture so to be , which cannot stand by it selfe under that Name , in any propriety of speech , or sound sence , reason , or signification , then he runs an end ( nemine c ontradicente ) none opposing or withstanding him in his progress , nor ( however reserving alwayes a liberty to themselves to dissent as they see occasion from his meaning ) so much as once gain-saying him in his terms with a hideous Hue and Cry for the Word of God , striving to restore it by his over-often repetitions of it to that title , which it never lost among the Qua. who being begotten and born again into the Image of God by it , are by whom onely it stands truly justified ● the children of it , and of the Truth ; scribling it over with all his might , the Word of God , the Word of God , the Word of God is a Light , and the Word of Life ; the Word of God is the powerful and living , and efficacious Word of God , the Word of God is the Word that dwells and dives within the heart , the word of God doth evidence it self to be , and therefore is without controle the Word of God : yea thus with a non obstante to all that deny the word to be the word , which are none at all , J.O. if it may be first granted him that the Scripture is the Word will undertake to prove it beyond & without all further question , to be the word . Thus JO. howbeit by that terme the Word of God he means the Scripture all along in his book , saving in one place , where he calls the Word essential and effective , yet as if he had utterly forgot that his business is to prove the Scripture to be the Word of God , & , as if he had remembred himself after he was entred , that his proof would not hold out , without a palpable appearance of piteous weakness , if he should have prosecuted it throughout under that terme of Scripture , takes his predicate and makes that his subject also , and in terminis goes all along asserting and assuring us the word of God is un doubtedly the word of God : yea Tr. 1. cap. 2. sect . 14. he goes on to prove that the word of God doth evidence it self to be of God , and is of as much , or more excellency and efficacy then his works and innate light to reveal God , and give the knowledge of his will , not so much as once mentioning the letter or Scripture at all , which is the subject he there takes on him to speak of , in all the following sections to the Chapters end , so be labouring him all along to prove another question then that he affirmed , viz. that the word is so and so , when his business was to have proved the Scripture to be the known word of God , for who denies that the word of God is assuredly his word ? but that the letter is that word is that which is denied , and by him undertaken to be proved , yet on he goes in his wonted blundring manner upon that term the word of God , the word is undoubtedly evident to be the word , making that both Suject and Predicate ; whereas he should have said all along , if the light and Gods outward works do so , much more doth the Scripture , or the letter evidence it self to be the Word of God , so giving his Reader no more to understand what his meaning is , but that we know it some way else , nor which is which by any distinction in his found , or shewing when he speaks of the Scripture which is the Copy of it , or the word it self , which is that in the heart , declared of in Scripture , which he was to prove the Scripture to be , then the Welch-man that being to give evidence before a Court between two that were fighting , who began , and was most in fault , answered no otherwise then in this confused manner , viz. If Him had struck Him , as Him did Him , either Him had killed Him , or Him Him , without any indignation of which of the two he meant , either this or that , by any , or by all of his many Hims . In this confused indistinct manner doest thou J.O. dispute for the Scriptures being and appearing to be the word of God , so that none , but folk , knows what thou pleadest for , viz. whether the Scripture it self singly and formally considered , about which the controversie is , whether it be the word of God or no , or the Word of God it self , about which no controversie i● at all with the Qu. ● who own Gods Word to be his Word ; yea draw up all thy Rambling matter into a closer form , and thy Arguments , which though thou call but some of them Inarteficial , and the rest Arteficial , yet are in truth the most inarteficial ones , that ever I saw fall from the hands of an Artist , or ever heard called truely by the name of Arguments , into a nearer compass , and set them in a true , fair syllogistical form and order , and they will appear either most false , or foul , or disorderly , or sophistical , or deformed . ( Reader ) for a taste take one or two of J. O.'s . mediums ( letting alone the examination of the strength and force of his Arguments , whether such as he calls Arteficial , or Inartificial ) and of their true consequence or inconsequence , as to the Scriptures appearing to be the word to its due place● and see what a mamock● kinde of matter they make , or amount to , as J.O. orders , or rather disorders his matters , by his impostural intruding of one subject in place of another , and thrusting in of that terme the Word of God , which is the main thing predicated of the Scriptures , to stand instead of that terme the Scriptures , of which it is by him predicated , and to be proved ( both in esse reali & cognoscibili , Ex. 1. sect . 1. ) that they are , and are assuredly known to be the VVord of God , and so properly to be called . Having first in T. 1. cap. 1. sect 25. laid the divine original of the Scripture , as the Basis of all his Babylonish building , and as he saith , T. 1. c. 2. s. 3. opened the manner of the Words * coming forth from God , to prove the Scriptures of the old and new Testament to be the VVord of God , much of which makes against himself , at large in a long Train of perplexive prittle prattle throughout his whole second , third , and fourth Chapters , from the self-evidencing property and efficacy of the Scriptures , which aforehand still he calls the VVord of God ; but to shut it all up together in short , to this purpose , viz. That which evidenceth it self to be the Word of God , that is , and is known assuredly to be the Word of God ; But the Word of God doth evidence it self unto us to be the Word of God , therefore the Word of God is , and is known assuredly to be the Word of God. The minor in this Syllogisme , none denieth , it being true in those termes it here stands in● yet it is false and sophistical , as falling from him , who by that term the Word of God in the sore part of the Proposition , means the Scriptures , the utter falshood of which minor , and so consequently of the conclusion ( which is now true , but aliud a negato ) would have too plainly appeared , if he had not sophistically placed that subject , i.e. the Word of God , as it stand formost in both , in the room of the right subject , i.e. the Scriptures , or if he had not changed his minor term , but exprest himself thus , viz. But the Scriptures do evidence themselves to be the Word of God , therefore the Scriptures are , and are known assuredly to be the Word of God : And to prove that minor , J.O. useth another medium , viz. Gods magnifying his Word above all his Name , by which à minore ad majus , i.e. from the self-evidencing power of smaller matters ( as he counts them ) i.e. the Works of God , and the Light in the conscience , the Law written in the heart , and the notions inlaid there with his own finger , which he calls the voice of God in nature ( for these are low ● darke , obscure principles , and means of revealing God and his will with J.O. in comparison of the writings and letters that are inlayed in parchment and paper , with the finger of meer man , which low principles yet are able to plead their own divine original , and evince them to be of God ) he argues at large that the Word of God ( Scripture again he should have said ) doth much more evidence it self to be his Word ; and ( to put his lax and loose words into a narrower room , and into a more Argumentative or Syllogistical posture ) thus , viz. If those inferiour Names of God , whereby he makes himself known , even his works without , and his Light , his Law written in the heart and conscience , * to which there need be no other Witness ; that when they testifie God's Righteousness , or Holynesse , and call for moral obedience , which is eternally and indispensably due to him , they speak from God , do evidence themselves to be what they are , and to be of him ; then much more his Word , [ the Scripture he should have said ] which God magnifies over all his Name , † must evidence it self to be his Word : But those inferionr Names do evidence themselves , and therefore much more doth the Word of God [ the Scriptures again he should have said ] evidence it self to be the Word of God. Rep. What a strange story is here , as if a man should tell a tale of two things , a Cock and a Bull , metamorphos'd into one , whereof the one having been as confidently , as untruly avowed to be assuredly known to be the other , viz. The Cock to be a Bull , is [ being denied ] as Ridiculously , as Reasonlesly profer'd to be proved in this illegal , and illogical way of Argumentation , viz. That which evidenceth it self to be a Bull , both is , and is assuredly known to be a Bull ; but the Bull [ alias , the Cock , for so he means , & should say ] evidenceth himself to be a Bull : Therefore the Bull [ or the Cock ] both is , and is assuredly known to be a Bull. In this shameful manner and sorry sort , doth I.O. having once audaciously avouch 't it , go about to prove the Scriptures to be , and to be assuredly known to be the VVord of God , by Anticipation , sophistically substituting that subject , the Word of God , in his disputation for it , in the room of the legal subject , i.e. the Scriptures , taking it , perforce , from such as give it not for granted , that it is so , while to them-ward it s yet no more but the thing in Question , and utterly unproved so to be ; which question I.O. not onely begs , but also begs so unworthily and basely , that I never saw the like to it , but once † before in all my life , and the like to it can't likely be seen again , unless a man should beg it on his knees , little less then plainly , confessing that unless it be aforehand granted him that the Scripture is the Word of God , he cannot possibly prove it so to be : What wise man , that is as willing to do the Truth Right , as thee I.O. no wrong , can make any better construction of thy own words , as they are to be read in the ● . sect . of the 4. chap. of thy first Treatise , where , professing that in the remainder of thy Discourse thorowout that Treatise ( which is all in proof of the Scriptures being assuredly the word of God ) thou shalt endeavour to clear and vindicate the self - evidencing efficacy of the Scripture , and the grounds thereof , by such common Mediums as shall as well reach the Reasons of such men , as acknowledge not the Scripture to be the Word of God , as of such as do , thou desirest in effect onely to have thus much first granted thee , that thou mayest have leave ( the Scripture being that out of which thy proofs for , and grounds of this self-evidencing efficacy of the Scripture to be the Word of God , are to be taken ) to consider the Scripture as 't is the written word of God , or else all thy proofs will be weak , and able to prove just nothing . This onely ( quoth I.O. to recite his own words ) I shall desire to promise , that whereas some grounds of this efficacy seem to be placed in the things themselves , contained in the Scripture , I shall not consider them abstractedly as such , but under their formality of being the Scripture , or written Word of God , without which consideration and resolution , the things mentioned would be left naked , and utterly divested of their Authority and Efficacy pleaded for , and be of no other nature and importance , then the same things found in other Books : Which is as much as to say , Being by the Scripture to prove the Scripture or writing both to be , and to evidence it self to be the Word written , or the written Word of God ; let such as deny it , deny that their denial of it , and but first own it with me , that the Scripture , or writing formaliter , is the written Word of God , and let us but under that name , nature , notion , and formality consider it , and then let me alone to prove it to them so to be , or else I must acknowledge that all I have to say , will be just nothing to the purpose , and of no validity at all to the proof thereof . Reply . But stay a while I.O. and take thy answer from us along with thee , though we love thee more then we are beloved by thee , and are loath to deny thee in any Reasonable Request : Yet for the Truth 's sake , which we love , and prefer before thee , and which is not ours to give away , we may not give way to thy Petition of the main Principle from us , though thou crouch down to the ground to petition for it , we must not give thee leave to run away with the Cause , so as to consider the Writing , the Scripture , under the false formality of its being the Word of God written , the Verbum Scriptum , while thou art but in the meer way of proving it , till thou hast as infallibly prov'd it so to be , as 't is infallible to us , that 't is impossible for thee to prove it : For this is the thing , sub judice , whether the Scripture be formally the VVord of God , or no : And since thou confessest thou canst not prove it , unless we , upon thy begging of it , yeild it to thee before-hand so to be , thou wert better grant it to us that it is not so : Nevertheless , ( not unlike to thy Fore-fathers the Bishops , and thy fellow-Clergy-men in other Cases ) so bold a Lord-Beggar thou art , that if we give it not , thou wilt take it by force , though thou crack thy credit for it , and get to thy self less of that earthly Honour thou so hastenest after , with thy having it by stealth , then thou wouldst gain of that heavenly Honour from above , by an honest confession of thy former ignorance , and a repentance to the future acknowledgement of the truth ; For upon that score thou resolvest so to go on in thy proof , and accordingly dost run rashly on , like him who as aforesaid proves a Cock to be a Bull , or like one who , because he thought so in the dark , having ignorantly asserted an Horse to be a Man , will ( rather then recant ) as impudently go on to prove it to all denyers of it , by begging of them first to grant it , and if they will not , by beating , what he can , the belief of it into them , by his often calling the Horse a Man , and bearing them down that he is a man , before he begins , and under that very Name and formality of his being so , begins and proves him to be evidently so in this following form , viz. That which doth evidence it self to be a man , is a man ; but a Man ( Horse he should say , but then the naked untruth of this minor would be too manifest ) doth evidence himself to be a Man : Therefore a man , ( alias , Horse ) doth evidence himself to be a man. Risum tenoatis A-cade - mici ? For my part if I were now , as sometime formerly I have been , Petulanti splene cachinno , I should hardly hold from laughing at the nugacity of I. O.'s Arguments ? But now nucibus faciens quaecunque relictis , being turn'd into that , which leads into more sobriety and seriousness then so , I shall dare to laugh no further then 't is allowed the saints to do at the proud Assyrian , that haughtily exalteth his voice , and lifteth his eyes on high against the holy one of Israel , and his holy ones , Isa. 37.22 , 23. But as for many of those juniors , [ what the Seniors may do , I know not ] or younger sort of Students and Gown-men in the Vniversity , to whose use and instruction thou dedicatest part of thy Booke , though [ thou being once a man of some Authority among them ] they may possibly not be so bold , nor so loud as to laugh out at thy hum-drum doings , and at thy Idem per Idems , yet they will scarce forbear laughing at them in their sleeves : Yet this is thy sophistry I.O. call'd among Schollars Petitio principij , or a Begging of the Question before one begins to prove it ; a taking of that to be a Ground , Principle , or Foundation to build on , which is not yet granted , but to be debated ; nor another thing from the thing debated , or inquired after , but the self-same thing , which is in controversie , and as unknown as that , that is disputed . For the Question between thee and the Qua. is whether the Scripture be ( in essereali & cognoscibili ) the Word of God or no ? we deny it , thou , being to prove it so to be , wouldest have it first granted , or at least takest it ungranted so to be , and then out of it self , it being granted thee so to be , thou wilt undertake to prove it so ; without which concession , consideration , and resolution , thou even grantest the things thou art to alledge , will be naked , and utterly inefficacious to that purpose ; out of which way of Sophistry it seems thou canst not prove it , and in which way though , de jure , thou oughtest not , yet de facto , thou doest prove it , as much , and no whit more , then ( as is said above ) the Cock is proved to be a Bull , and a Horse a Man , whilst thy Argumentation in many places is no better than this , viz. that which is the Word of God doth evidence it self to be the Word of God : But the Word of God ( Scripture or writing thou shouldest say , but dost not every where , lest thy nakedness too much appear ) is the Word of God ; Therefore the Word of God doth evidence it self to be the Word of God. In which Syllogism ( which is thine if the long loyns of thy loose dispute , and that stragling multitude of thy matter of proof be girded up close into its own mifigured form ) thy minor hath subjectum aliud à substrato , a different subject from that , which was of right to stand there , and to be proved to be the VVord of God , viz. the VVord of God , which is Idem cum predicato , the self-same with that , which is predicated of it ; and thy conclusion infers aliud à negato , quite another thing then that which is denied ; for that the VVord of God is by it self evidenced to be the VVord of God is as much undenied , as it is undeniable by us , but that the writing in which the VVord is but held forth and declared , is the VVord of God that is held out and declared by it , this I shall make as bold , and as warrantably against any one to deny , as I should against such a Sot , as following a Foolshead of his own should assert such a thing , that the Glass window thorough which the Sun shines , and the Lanthorn thorough which the light of the candle shews it self , are of a truth and in very deed ( respectively ) the very Sun it self , or Candle-light it self that display themselves thorow the said Glass or Horn , or that the Cup-glass by which the VVine gives its colour , and is handed out that men may drink it , is truly and properly the very wine itself , that is given out to be drunk of , and that sparkles and gives out his goodly colour in the Glass ; or that the picture of a Prince , or eminent person is in esse reali & cognoscibili , and in all propriety of speech so to be called , the very Prince or person him self it is but the Image of , or the Map of the City London , Rome , Jerusalem , is the very City it represents , so that he bereaves it of its proper name , that will not allow it to to be any otherwise but figuratively so called . Now as to the Scriptures being the Word of God , and evidently known to be so , or evidencing themselves to be so , and that of right , and properly they are to be so called ; all which thou J. O very absolutely averrest , I do here as absolutely deny , confessing , that if they be so , or can be evidenced so to be , they ought accordingly so to be called , or else not , for tum demum propriè dicuntur resfieri quoad nos , cum incipiunt patefieri , what is not so , is not known to be so , much less can challenge that as its proper name ; so that if , in essereali ; they can be made appear to be the Word of God , then I give the rest for granted , or if I make it appear that they are not so , then all wise men that ( not for want of ignorance of it ) yet do not , will once grant that they are not so infallibly known ( as J.O. avouches they are ) to be the Word of God , and that the Word of God is not the proper name of the Scriptures , so distinctly and abstractively understood as is above said . And seeing that thou J.O. art first out in the field appearing for them , it s but meet that I should first examine what thou urgest in way of evidence for their being the Word of God , and so subjoyn what I have to say truly of them against what falsely thou hast said . And seeing that which thou thy self layest , as the very basis and foundation of thy whole brittle building , and of all that divine Authority ascribed by thee to the Scripture of its being owned & sub paena to be submitted to as the Word of God , on peril of eternal damnation is its Divine original , and is best also to be first medled with , that , the bottome being shaken and shewed to be unsound , the body of sticks and straws thou buildest thereon , which is torn and shattered not a little within it self , as it stands untouched in the eye of any intelligent and observant Reader , may yet with the more ease , and less labour be shaken to the ground , I shall enter first at the front of thy Formidable forces , and begin to undo where thou beginnest to do thy Do , which yet will not be so much in one sense to undo , as truly to do Right to the Truth about the letter , which thou wrongest in uttering so many utter untruths concerning it as thou doest . J. O. The whole Authority of the Scripture in it self depends solely on its Divine original , pag. 2. This Original is the basis and foundation of all its Authority , pag. 28. Rep. As to the Divine original of the Scripture , which is the first and fundamental matter that in the very original or first Chapter of thy first Treatise thou pleadest on its behalf , as in proof of its Divine Authority or Right to be owned as the Word of God ; I deny not but that it is of Divine original , and so one way or other is every thing else , that hath a truly good and honest being , yea the very Devil himself , as a creature of God , though neither any of his deeds , which are sin , which is deceit and defect , nor himself , quà 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he is a Deceiver , and as immediate an original from God , as any meer writing or Scripture in the world hath , this Scripture hath , and some little of it such an immediate emanation from God , as neither the most of it self hath , or ever had , nor yet the best that ever any holy man of God was the Pen-man of , now hath or ever had , I acknowledge that Scripture which is the present subject , had at its first giving out to men ; for a few words of that outward writing the mee● writing or letter of which yet , though the matter still remains , and ever will when all writing fails , is lost and perished out of the world , as well as the original manuscripts of the holy men who wrote the rest ) was written more miraculously at first then with the hands of holy men , namely , some with such Fingers as came out from the wall by God● appointment in Belshazzars carousing Room , Dan. 5.24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. and some with no less than the Finger of God himself , Exod. 32.18 . 16.32 . 15 , 16. 34.1.28 . Deuter. 9 10. 10.12 . But what of all this ? that the meer Transcripts of that Text , which was so immediately ( though little or none of it so immediately from God , as J.O. contends neither , or at least none at all of it immediate unto us ) that our modern Transcripts I say thereof , which is all that is immediate to us , and which J.O. who confesses all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or first writings to be lost , busies himself to prove to be so , are at all immediately come forth from God to us , or that that letter , which was most immediately penned from Gods own hand is thereupon evinced to be truly , and in proper location the Word of God , or any more then externa mera , licet vera , Imag● , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a meer though true , outward copy , expression or express Image , as vox omnis is , and Scripture too ad intra , of the Word of God , which is that only that is written of , and not the writing of it . This I both dare and do deny again J.O. or any other that asserts it : yet what a deal of stress doth J.O. put upon his strict and strong Asseveration of this throughout his first Chapter , insomuch that he layes the whole load of his cause , and makes all his labours to lean upon this weak Reed , and broken Basis , the falseness , shallowness , and sandiness of which , as he manages this matter , viz. the manner of the Scriptures coming out from God , by then I shall have a little examined , it will shew it self unable to bear up the weighty Fabrick of the Scriptures being the Word of God , which is the Babel that he builds upon it , against a storm . I shall here take notice of some at least of J. O.'s foolish , false , fictitious , and self-contradicting talk about that prime Prop and Pillar , on which his grand Proposition , that the Scripture is assuredly and infallibly known to be the Word of God , and all his proofs thereof are grounded , viz. The Divine Original of the Scripture . CHAP. II. I Shall consider this matter of the Scriptures Original both Absolutely , taking notice of a few of thy false and foolish fancies about it ; and also Relatively , as it 's laid by thee as the Basis of the Scriptures Divine Authority , or being th● Word of God. J. O. The Laws , Doctrines , Instructions , stories , Promises , Prophesies given out by the Writers of the Scripture , were not their own , conceived in their minds , nor form'd by their Reasonings , nor retained in their memories from what they had heard ; nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them , 1 Pet. 1.10 , 11. But were all of them immediately from God , so as that there was onely a Passive concurrence of their Rational faculties in their reception , without any such Active obedience to , as by any Law they might be obliged , pag. 5 , 6. Rep. Many things in this Parcel are utterly false , being uttered [ as they are ] of the whole Scripture , and all its first Pen-men [ for what is said of the Old , as to the immediate manner of its giving forth , is said also [ saist thou , pag. 9.27 . ] of the New ] insomuch that it s not onely very fond , but savouring also of no small ignorance , both of , and in the Scripture , for any such Minister of no more then the meer Letter of it , as our Divine● are , much more below the Ministers of the Spirit to hold out for truth , or so much as to imagine within themselves ; and as they are utter untruths , so much lesse are they of force to evince that false Assertion to be Truth , which thou J.O. wouldst conclude from thence , viz That their Writings are uncontroulably known to be the Word of God. 1. What a crude conception of thy vain mind is this , that the Laws , Doctrines , Instructions , Stories , Promises , Prophesies written ( which I confess were not their own formed , as many , if not most of thy false Doctrines and strange stories about the Scriptures are thine own , formed by [ unreasonable ] Reasonings ) were not so much as conceived in the minds of the Pen-men ? Were they not conceived in them by the Holy Spirit ? And ●ly . by them , so as that ( for the most part at least ) they understood , knew , and believed them as Truths , before they committed them to Writing , as they were moved by the Spirit of God to do , for the use of others ? And though they wrote not but at the Will of God , and his spirit pressing them thereunto ; and under the burthen of the Word of the Lord that lay upon them , till they had discharged themselves of it ; * yet art thou so silly as to conceive they delivered things before they were conceived in them ? So far at least they were conceived in and by them too , as to prove thy saying little less then senselesse and absurd . 2. VVhereas thou sayest , they were not retained in their memories from what they had heard , nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them : Is not that as absolutely absurd and false as the rest ? Did they in writing declare things for truth , and teach Doctrines , and give out Instructions , and tel stories , & relate passages , before they had so much as heard of , or seen , or believed , or embraced what things they wrote & rehearsed , or entertained them as such , or by any means beforehand comprehended them ? Is not this directly contrary to what the Apostles say , who had , and wrote from the same spirit of Faith with them of old , who write thus , 2 Cor. 4.13 . As it is written Psal. 16. 10. I believed , and therefore have I spoken ; so we also believe , and therefore speak , &c. 1 Joh. 1.1.3 . That which we have heard , which we have seen with our eyes , look's on , and handled , declare we to you . And when Isaiah wrote things of Christ , did he not see his glory ? Isa. 6.1 . Iob. 12.40 , 41. & Lev. 1.2.11.19 . Is Iohn commanded to write anything in his Booke but what he had seen ? And did he write or bear record of the Word of God , or the Testimony of Iesus , that he did by no means before-hand comprehend , or of any things but those he saw ? And is not seeing one means of comprehending ? 3. Sith thou saist , The things they wrote were not retained in their memories from what they had heard ; Did they first heare , and see , and believe , and comprehend , and entertain them into their memories , and then not retain , but let them slip , and quite forget them before they wrote , and then began to write when they had , and not before they had remembred to forget them ? For of the things thou writest , this is the sum ; the whole sum of which , though 1 Pet. 1.10 , 11. is cited to add weight to it , which gives not the least dram of evidence to the truth of one tittle of it , is found by such as weigh it in the Ballance of right Reason , to be a lye , and lighter then vanity it self . Belike then according to thy fancy , Paul when he wrote to Timothy to bring his Books , and P●rchments , & Cloak left at Troas with Carpus , wrote that , not as a matter conceived in his mind , or retain'd in his memory , but as a thing forgotten , that he had no comprehension of afore-hand ? Did he not write that and a hundred more matters , as retain'd in his memory : And though he wrote them as mov'd by the spirit , in the wisdom of which he liv'd & walk't , and did all he did , as he saw service in it ; yet did he not write of his Revelations and Temptations after them , by the thorn in the flesh ? 2 Cor. 12.1 . &c. and of his many perils and hazards he had gone through , and his whippings , and stonings , and shipwracks , and other sufferings and services , 2 Cor. 11. as things retained in his memory , though some of them fourteen years behinde ? And when he wrote of the Fornication , 1 Cor. 5. and the Divisions 1 Cor. 11. that were among the Corinthians , did he not write of them as things he had by hear-say , and common Report ? And did he not retain in his memory what was told him by them of the House of Cloe , and thereupon wrote to them thereof , as of a matter heard , remembred , and afore-hand believed , ( For L partly believe it , quoth he ) and comprehended aforehand ? VVhat innumerable instances of the like fort of stories written , as retained in the memories of holy VVriters , might be given out of both the Old Testament and the New ! But this little is enough , if thou be not wilfully blind , to bring thee into a remembrance of thy babling about the Bible , of the writings whereof thou writest , as if thou hadst never read it all , but in a dream . And when Matthew the Publican wrote of his own being called from the Receit of Custom , and of his entertaining Christ in his house , Matth. 9.9 . Did he it not on the account of his retaining that passage in his memory ? And whereas thou saist they wrote all immediately from God , so as that there was onely a passive concurrence of their rational faculties in their reception , without any such active obedience as by any Law they might be obliged to . I say , thou renderest thy self as Ridiculous o● Reasonlesse in this thy Reasoning , as if thou wert one , that had never read any otherwise then at random : For hadst thou been as observans as thou art oscitant in thy Readings and Writings of the Scripture , thou wouldst have seen and remembred that several Stories , Proverbs , Doctrines , Prophesies , and other parcels and passages , as they stand recorded in thy Rule or Canon , were not written so immediately from God as thou imaginest , that in the first reception , as well as in the first Scription of some of them , there was an Active , and not onely a Passive concurrence of the Rational Faculties of the Writers , and also such an Active obedience as by some Law they might be obliged to . 1. How immediately from God dost thou deem , were the Writings of sundry of those Genealogies in the Letter of the Iewish Law , about which there are , among many such Ministers as thy self , such foolish questions and contentions , and endless strivings , which Paul bids those two Ministers , viz Timothy and Titus , not to give heed to , but avoid as unprofitable , and vain , and fables , and things that Minister matter of question , and vain jangling , rather then godly edifying ? 1 Tim. 1.4.6 . Tit. 3.9 . And also of those Chronologies , and Nomenclators , and ( to us impertinent ) Catalogues of Names of such as came out of Babylon , at first with Zorobabel , and then with Ezra , and of such as had married strange VVives , and of such as sealed the Covenant , and of the Levites in their several Offices and Orders of singing-men , and Porters , and Priests , that could not find their Pedigree ; and of the children of Solomons servants , and of the builders of the wall , and many more particular nominations and enumerations of that sort , that are in the Chronicles , Ezra , and Nehemiah ? which whatever use they were of under the Iewish Paedagogie , make little to us now , as to a punctual observation of them ; much less so much as thou I.O. of whose Foundation , Rule , Cannon , and Standard , they are no small part , supposest , insomuch that on any corruption supposed therein , as there well may be , and contradiction too , if the Books of Samuel , the Kings , and Chronicles , be critically , or but carefu●ly considered , 1 Sam. 16.9 , 10 , 11. 1 Sam. ●● . 12 14. compared with 1 Chron. 2.13 , 14 , 15. the certainty of all saving Doctrine is consequently supposed to be lost : I say , how immediately are these Writings and things written from God without any active concurrence of the rational faculties of the Writers in the w●iting of them ? May it not very well be supposed that some of these things were written at first ( if by such holy men , as all the Iews were not , that were very zealous of the Letter of the Law , and in writing the deeds done in their Nation ) yet at least in such wise onely , as holy men may , without immediate reception of every Tittle [ as thou twatlest they did ] from God , and by the active concurrence of their rational faculties , write a story of what is done in their sight , or of what they have by hear-say , or find in the Books of the Chronicles of things done in such or such Nations ? May it not be supposed that some of those Stories , and Genealogies , and Chronicles , and Catalogues , and Proverbs , and Prophesies , pertaining to the Old Testament , and some of the Stories of the New too , were written ( though not without the spirit moving the holy men to it that liv'd in the spirit , yet ) so as not without a retaining them in their memories , and an active concurrence of their rational faculties , and such an active obedience , as by some Law they might be obliged to ? Yea , how frivolously foolish art thou in the uttering of thy self ? Is not the very moving of the spirit it self , in which thou ownest they wrote , and the Law of the spirit obliging thereto ? 2. And what thinkest thou of the History of Iohn , Mark , which some have in that respect stiled Sacrum furt●m , a kind of holy Theft ; is it not possible but that it might be some Abbreviation of Matthew's story concerning Christ , there being little in it but what is well-nigh word for word in the other ? Though some Ancients have related it to be given forth by Peter , and by Mark onely written from his mouth , either of which if it was , then was it not so immediately from God , as thou I.O. guessest , as to the Writing of it , the Pen-man taking it either out of anothers Writing , or else from the mouth of another man , that had it more immediately then he , and yet neither of them so immediately from God , as that there was onely a passive concurrence of their Rational faculties in the reception of it ; for whether it were Mark writing out of Matthew , or from Peter's mouth , or of himself , as it seemed good to him to set down , 't was but a History of such things , as he was well acquainted with , either as an eye or ear-witness thereof , or as one that had it sufficiently attested to , for him to undertake to write it out as truth ; and so not without an active concurrence of his rational faculties in the reception of what he wrote , as well as not without a moving thereto by the holy spirit , in which he lived , and in the light of which he saw it might be serviceable . And on such an account as this , rationally reckoning within himself , it might be useful so to do , Luke the Physician wrote his two Histories of the Acts of Christ , and of his Apostles ; in which Book called the Acts , many , if not most of the matters mentioned by him , were about Paul , whose Companion he was in several of his Travels , excepting some passages about the beginning of it , concerning all the Apostles ; and some touches concerning Barnabas and Silas , and some others , upon occasion of their being here and there with Paul in some services ; but as for the Apostles after whom his Book is called the Acts of the Apostles , there 's scarce the one hundredth part of what they all did , nor of those travels and sufferings that they sustained , medled with at all by Luke , who took notice of little more then what he knew , as he was a fellow - traveller with Paul. And that his Writings were of no other nature then thus , appears plainly by his Preface to the first of them , which ye call , The Gospel of St. Luke , where Luke 1.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. he writes on this wife : Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things , which are most surely believed among us , even as they delivered them unto us , which from the beginning were eye-witnesses and Ministers of the Word , it seemed good to me also , having had a perfect understanding of things from the beginning , to write unto thee in order● most excellent Theophilus , that thou mightest know the certainty of those things wherein thou hast been instructed . Which words , [ many have taken in hand to declare what was delivered to them by the eye-witnesses , and it seemed good to me also to write to thee , &c. ] sound forth , That howbeit the spirit of God might move him so to do for service sake to the truth , yet as others had done before him ( of whom whether Mark were one yea or nay it matters not much to me ) so himself , as it seemed good to him , wrote a story of certain Truths not upon the account of such a meer passive immediate reception thereof from God by inspiration of every Tittle into him , as he wrote , as thou doest , without any conception of the things in his minde , or retaining them in his memory , or by any means before hand comprehending them , but rather , as it were , at second hand , as they were heard and beleeved , and unde●stood by him , as true matters of fact from the mouthes or writings of such as were eye witnesses thereof , and did first deliver them , and so to the confutation of thy vain figment , not without a concurrence of his rational faculties in the receiving of what he wrote . 3. What thinkest thou of those Proverbs of Solomon , whose Proverbs were 3000. in all , not 300. of which are contained in your Canon , and his Songs a hundred and not five of which are come to your cognizance , King. 4 3.2.5 . or those which stand in your Standard from the very first inserting of them there , stand but at second hand at best , as they were copied out of , whether the first manuscript , or some remote , and more uncertain Transcript , who can tell● by the men of Hezekiah some nine or ten Generations after him , see Prov. 25.1 . were these received by the Writers that affixed them to that ye call your Canon , so immediately from God , as thou dreamest , without any but a passive concurrence ; as things not by any means comprehended by these men of Hezekiah before they wrote them ? 4. What thinkest thou of such parts and parcels of thy so called Canon as are each of them written in two several places or books of thy Bible ? one of which places and the Respective parcels whether Histories or Prophesies , or Praises therein recited are at most but repetitions and meer transcriptions out of the other , with some such Additions , or Ablations , or ( Alterations of more than Titles and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) as is not unusually made among Transcribers , of which sort for instance in a few , I refer thee , and all such as scrape so unskilfully as thou doest about the Scriptures being in every Title as it now stands in your Copies immediately written from God by inspiration , and without meditation , or any means of comprehending the things they wrote beforehand by the Writers thereof , to consider and compare Psal. 14. with Psal. 53. and 2 Sam. 2.2 . with Psal. 18. also 2 King. 18.13 . c. 19. c. 20. with Isa. 36. Isa. 37. Isa. 38. Isa 39. also 2 King. 24 18. c. 25. throughout , with Ier. 39. Ier. 52. by which places perused , howbeit every word of this is asserted by J.O. to be written as immediately from Gods own mouth , as any of it , it is yet plain and evident that some of it was but copied and transcribed out of other some , and such a useless Repetition of the same over and over again , as neither need be , nor would be , if the Bible , as consistent of neither more nor less than what is ordinarily bound up in it , had be●n intended by either God , or the holy Pen-men of the sundry parcels thereof to be the inalterable constant Canon , and only steady Standard for all succeeding ages of men universally to the worlds end . 5. Moreover what thinkest thou of such Scripture Prophesies and Epistles , as were first written , and pend not by the holy men themselves , that were moved to give them forth by inspiration , but by such as wrote them , not mmediately from God , but from the mouthes of such only as indited them , as the spirit moved , of which there are not a few , but how many exactly who knows ? since evident it is that those men after whom they are denominated did not at first write all their own Prophesies and Epistles with their own hands , witness much at least of Ieremiahs Prophesie , that was written not by himself but Baruch his ordinary Scribe as Jeremiah dictated to him . See Ier. 36.4.6.17 , 18 , 32. Baruch 6.1 . &c. Witness also Pauls Epistle to the Romans , which though indited by him , yet Tertius was the Pen-man thereof , Rom. 16.22 . which verse Tertius himself it seems added as he wrote . Besides many , if not most of his Epistles were sent not from Paul alone sigillatim , but from himself , and such other of his fellow-labourers , as were with him at such times , and places , when and from whence they were sent , viz. some from him and Timothy , 2 Cor. 1.1 . Col. 1.1 . Philip. 1.1 . Philem. 1.1 . Some from him and Silas and Timothy , 1 Thess. 1.1 . 2 Thes. 1.1 . one from him and Sosthenes , 1 Cor. 1.1 . of which , which of the two or the three was the Scribe , though we beleeve Paul to be ( under God ) the chief Authour , who knows ? one from him and all the brethren that were with him at the writing thereof , Gal. 1.1 , 2. which is the only one to any whole Churches , that we have clear evidence of that he wrote with his own hands , of which he sayes , Gal. 6.11 . Yee see how large a letter I have written to you with mine ownhand , and verse 17. Henceforth let no man trouble me , which very expression of his , verse 11. intimates that it was not very usual with him to write his letters to the Churches with his own hand , but only signed them when others had wrote them for him , therefore he often intimate● his love to them under his own hand , and no more . See 1 Cor. 16.21 . Col. 4.18.1 . and 3.17 . The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand , which is the token in every Epistle , so I write ; now it being so , were all the writings and things written received so immediately from God , as thou imaginest , by the first Pen-men with out retaining any thing in their memories of what they had learned , or comprehending them by any means beforehand , or without any but a meer passive concurrence of their rational faculties in the reception thereof ? what ignorance is this ? Besides , whether with Pauls own hand or any others his Epistles were written , some things therein were therein spoken to the Churches by himself , as delivering his judgement by permission only , and not by Commandement from God , by him not the Lord , To the rest , quoth he , speak I , and not the Lord , 1 Cor 7.6 12.40 . which as it contradicts J. O's . talk in the parcel above cited , so also it overturns that talk and fabulous piece of praie as to some parts of it ) and shall here stand as an answer to it , which he as ignorantly utters , pag. 25 , 26 , 27. viz. They were carried out by the Holy Ghost to speake , deliver , write all that , and nothing but that to a very tittle , that was so brought unto them , they only received the words from God himself : Every aspect of the written word , i.e. writing with J.O. is equally Divine , and as immediately from God as the voice wherewith , or whereby he spake to , or in the Prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same Authority in it self , and unto us . What hath been spoken thus of the Scripture of the Old Testament , must be also affirmed of the New , with this addition of advantage and preheminen●● , that it received its beginning of being spoken by the Lord himself . 6. Seeing it is so , as is abovesaid , that all was not written by the hands of the inspired Authors themselves at the very first , but much by such Scribes only as wrote from them as dictated to by them to whom God gave out this minde , and so wrote , not so immediately from God as thou dreamest , but that they might mispell or mistake in more than Titles , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( most good men being but bad Schollers and Scribes as to inch more humane earthly skill as your Schollership lyes in ) how absolutely doth this overturn that other utter untruths , that thou tellest twice over to the manifesting of thine own folly more fully in uttering twice such falshood not so much as once observing it , viz. pag. 10 , 11. that the Word ( which with thee still is the Scripture ) is come forth unto us [ mark unto us ] from God without the least mixture or interveniency of any Medium obnoxious to fallibility , as is the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge and memory of the best of all men . But if what I have shewed above did not contradict , and give check to this saying of thine about the Scriptures coming out immediately from God unto us , who live so many ages from the last person , who received any part of it immediately from God ; thou whose great Masterpiece of business it is throughout thy whole book to say and unsay , and contradict thy self , and run in Rounds , overturnest and statly contradictest it thy self , saying , pag. 30. that we have not the Scripture from God immediately our selves ; in which self-confutation and contradiction of pag. 10. by pag. 30. thou canst not to continue long neither , but as one delighting to dance round , and shew how well skill'd thou art in tracing to and fro about the Scripture ; thou ( to go round again ) returnest , and reiteratest , pag. 153. that falsity uttered by thee , pag. 10. in this wise over again , viz. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were immediately and entirely given out by God himself ; mark , as if God himself had wrote it every tittle with his own finger ; whereas how little God himself wrote I have shewed above , and how such as were immediately inspired ( the mediation of whose hand writing in what they also wrote comes between God and us ) did not write it all immediately with their own hands , but men that took what they said from them in writing by the active improvement of their knowledge , wisdome , skill in writing , memory , and other rational faculties ; so far is the Text from coming immediately from God to the men of those Cities and places that lived where and when it was written ; but how much farther from being immediately and entirely , without any medium obnoxious to fallibility , from God to us , who live so many Ages off unto whom that Text J.O. talks of , is descended perhaps at the hundreth hand , through the hands of who knows what unskilful , careless , forgetful Scribes or Transcribers ? the very best of which J.O. at best confesses , to be but fallible , and that it was possible they might , and also did mistake , so as that failings fell out among them , p. 167. nevertheless on he goes thus concerning that Scripture or writings , viz. That Gods minde is in them represented unto us without the least interveniency of such mediums and wayes as were capable of giving change or alteration to the least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or syllable . 7. Whereas thou sayest there was onely a passive concurrence of the rational faculties of the Writers , without any such active obedience as by any Law they might be obliged to , though I have shewed thee that all the first Writers were not inspired , but some wrote from their lips that were so , and so were , though never so skilful , obnoxious to fallibility , yet as thou intendest it of such Prophets , Apostles , Evangelists , as wrote their own Prophesies , Epistles , Histories , Proverbs , Psalms , &c. with their own hands as they were moved by the Spirit , it s utterly untrue that thou affirmest , for the holy men of God who either wrote their Scripture with their own hands , or dictated to such as they required to pen it from their mouthes , as themselves spake from the mouth of God , out of which came all that wisdome , knowledge , and understanding , that is thereby uttered forth , were such as were not so meerly pasive as thou praiest , in the reception of what they wrote without any active concurrence of their rational faculties , but in order to their receiving the word , and manifestation of the minde and will of God to them which was written , had both then , and long before also an active concurrence thereof , and such an active obedience to God as all men are by the Law of God , i.e. the light in the conscience obliged to , whereby they were made , and became first holy men before they were used by God in such an holy work as preaching and wrriting out his minde to others , and were brought into the thing or life it self they spake and wrote of , and were purged from lusts and defilements , and iniquities , and foolish , and unlearned questions , and such prophane and vain bablings as ye are yet exercised in at your Vniversities about the Bible , as well as about other books of humane businesses , that in comparison of that holy truth , that is in the Bible handled , are but meer Baubles , which a man being purged from , 2 Tim. 2.16 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. he shall be a vessel of honour sanctified and meet for the Masters use , and prepared unto every good work . Yea their Prophets that spake out that holy Doctrine , and soul-saving truth that is declared in the Scriptures ( what ever some of them might be , that were exercised in the copying out of sundry of those ( to us ) more unnecessary , and unprofitable parts thereof , viz. the endless Legal , Genealogical , Chronological Catalogues of mens names , not so needful to us to know ) were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy men of God , 2 Pet. 1. ult . and such to whose souls knowledge and wisdome , and the fear of God was pleasant , who cried after it , and lifted up their voices to God for it , and were in such love with it as to wait on God for it , out of whose mouth it comes , and daily at the posts of wisdomes house ( which your Vniversities are not yet acquainted with ) and sought it as silver , and searched for it as for hid treasure , and though to Prophesie was a gift of God , and such as have it are so passive as to receive it from the giver , and none can receive any thing of it , except it be given him from above , Joh. 3. and though it is in no wise to be purchased by mens mony at Schools , and Colledges , as our Accademical Simon Magus's suppose , who to obtain and buy all the gifts , whereby they Prophesie to men , for mony , and sell them for mony again when they have done , yet was it a gift obtained in the way of such active obedience to God , as by the said Law , or light of God in the heart , men stand obliged to , and to be coveted , and desired , and was given in a certain way that ye are so far out of , that ye hate it , of holy waiting on God , and learning of him alone in silence in all subjection in order thereunto ; for which work there are now as there were of old ( but those are not Oxford and Cambridge Vniversities as it were Schools and Nurseries of young Prophets at Iericho and Bethel , [ alias , by interpretation ] the House of God , where Truth , and true Wisdom , and true Religion was , and is learnt , as truly and fully , as it is falsly taught , or rather fully and universally forgotten at our now Vniversities , or Nursing-mothers of that Wisdom and Religion from beneath , which is but earthly , sensual , or animal and deceitful : See 2 K. 2.7.15 . 2 King. 6.1 . 2 K. 9.1 . yea in order to Gods manifestation of himself to men in such wise as he will not to World , that lyes in wickedness , it 's required that men keep his commandments , so far as they are made known already in the light in the conscience , Ioh. 14 and seperate themselves from the sensual ones that have not the spirit , and not together with them from the truth , Prov. 18.1 , 2. and that they come out of all that defileth , and become holy ; for no defiled thing falls into Wisdom ; but in all ages ( this as well as any of old , though ye own none to be now in rerum natura ) entring into holy souls , she maketh them friends of God , and Prophets , Wisd. 7.23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , 30. But the reason why so few Priests are ever made true Prophets , is because for the most part they are more prophane then other people , from of old , and much more now ; insomuch that , as heretofore , I mind at present , but two of all that numerous Tribe , Race , and Party of Priests , that the Jewish Church was fill'd with , that became Prophets , viz. Ieremiah and Ezekiel , Ier. 1. 1. Ezek. 1.3 . So now velduo , vel nemo , of all sorts of persons , few or none of our Academical , Levitical Race of Rabbi●s arrive to so much honour and happiness as to become obedient to the Faith ; yet so far many of them came in the primitives times , notwithstanding I can't find that ever any of them commenced Prophets , Evangelists , or Apostles ; much less are many to be found so highly graduated , as to become such in the true Church or School of Christ at this day ; they are not upon the Tower , upon their Watch , toward the Light. They hearken not with Habbakkuk to what God saith in them . Hab. 2.1 . They stand not in the Lords counsel , nor receive the word from his own mouth , but as the false Prophets of old , Ier. 23. ( in which respect they were false Prophets , that profited not at all , and such as God was against , though speaking true words ) they steal the word they speak out of the true Prophets Writings , whom God sent , and spake to , when he neither sent , nor ever said the same unto them , and so run crying , Thus saith the Lord , as ours do , hear the Word of the Lord , as you shall find it in such a Text , such a Chapter , such a Verse ; when they never heard God's voice at any time themselves , nor saw his shape . They hate and fight against Gods own counsel , the Light in the Conscience , which would lead them to purity in their own persons ; and so never come to see , much less to shew his Secret , which is onely with them that fear him Psal. 25. whose sear , which is the beginning of Wisdom , is to depart from the evil , which the light discovers ; and so as none can bring a clean thing out of an unclean , so none can receive much of a clean thing into an unclean . But as Isaiah who was of unclean lips , had his lips first toucht , and his iniquity taken away , before he was sent of Gods errand , Isa. 6. And Ieremiah was sanctified to the work of Prophesie , Ier. 1. So there must be more Holiness of Truth found among their Holinesses , the Pope , and all the Priests and Praters for pay thorowout all Christendom , before they know how to prophesie themselves , or tell truly ( as much as they are found , from the Text of their Transcripts , tatling to the World of what they know not ) how and in what manner Gods Prophets prophesie . Thou addest I.O. pag. 6. That in writing they were not enabled by any habitual light , knowledge , or conviction of Truth , to declare Gods mind and will , but onely acted as they were immediately moved by him ; their hand in what they wrote , was no more at their own disposal , then the Pen in the hand of an expert Writer . And p. 23. That no rational Apprehensions had any place in their Writing . And p. 25. That this was the first spring of the Scripture , and beginning of its emanation from the Counsel of God , it was brought by the Power of the Holy Ghost into its Organs and Instruments us'd for the Declaration of it ; and that it was not left to their understandings , wisdoms , minds , memories , to order , dispose , and give it out . But that they were born , acted , moved to write all , and nothing but that , to every tittle , that was so brought to them . And that they invented not words themselves , but the words were immediately supplyed to them ; and that in writing they were but passive instruments for the reception and representation of words ; And that every Apex of the written Word , ( i.e. Writing , secundum te ) was as immediately from God to the writers , as his voice in the Prophets , p. 26 , 27. And p. 7. That they were but as an Instrument of Musick , giving a sound according to the hand onely of him that strikes it . Rep. These things are false , being written by thee of all the Writings , and first Writers of the Scripture universally , as they are without exception and distinction ; for so indistinct and confused art thou in thy delivery of thy mind about the Bible , that though it be a Bulk of Heterogeneous Writings , compiled together by men , taking what they could find of the several sorts of Writings , that are therein , and trussing them all up into one Touch-stone , crouding them into a Canon , or Standard for the trial of all Spirits , Doctrines , Truths , and by them alone : Yet thou speak'st so Homogeneously of it , as if whatever can be predicated of any , may be as properly predicated of it all ; yea whatever thou sayest ( falsly ) of the Writing , thou denominatest the self-same of it all , and every Apex and Tittle , yea every Tittle and Iota with thee is no less then the Word of the great God , wherein the ●ternal concernment of souls lyes . p. 168 , 169. And so every part of it a Rule , and the perfect Rule ; for so 't was with thee when there were none but Moses five Books , and 't is but so with thee now so much is added : So every Apex equally Divine , and as immediately from God as any of it , yea and as the voice , whereby he spake in the Prophets , pag. 27. But I say , as written by thee so universally of the Writers and meer Writing of the Scriptures ( as they are ) they are ( for the most part ) as false , as that foregoing ; and that I have said above concerning the Writing of much of the Scripture at first , as it stands in your Bibles , by Scribes that wrote either out of other Copies , or from the mouths of men more immediately inspired , or from what was commonly reported , and generally believed , and what they had heard , as delivered to them by more immediate eye and ear witnesses , and what they retain'd in their memories , and some way or other comprehended beforehand , may stand as a sufficient Answer to this parcel also , wherein according to thy wonted habitual darkness , ignorance , and contradiction to the Truth , thou deniest the Pors-men and holy Prophets in their Writings to be enabled to declare , and write what they wrote by any habitual light , knowledge , or conviction of the Truth ; As if they wrote what they neither saw , nor heard , nor knew , nor believed to be true ; but besides all sight and understanding , discerning , mental conception , meditation , Rational Apprehension , Faith , or any manner of Antecedent comprehension of the truths they told , as if they were all acted , and us'd in the Writing of every Tittle by the Lord , just no otherwise but as a Musical Instrument in a man's hand , or the Pen itself by an expert Writer , which can yeeld no more then a meer passive concurrence , having no principle of life within it self from whence to act any thing at all , or to move a hairs breadth in any business , but as it 's mov'd ; or as some stark dead Corps , which can neither stir , nor stand , but as extrinsecally born up , and carried forth , because deest aliquid intus : Whereas ( as I have shew'd above ) some of them wrote not by immediate inspiration , or bringing of the things into their minds so by the spirit ; but mediately , that is , from the mouths or writings of such as received the truths more immediately , as they were inspired , & wrote , as they also spake , no other , things then what by some means or other they beforehand comprehended , & no other then what they heard , and saw , and believed , and retained in their minds and memories , whereinto the spirit of truth , and the truths he guided them into ( which the world receives not ) were both received , conceived , and entertained ; yea , and I here add , no other then such as in the same light were more or less seen , known , understood , and believed before any Scripture , at all was , though 't was by the same way , then which I know no other that the Scripture speaks of , of knowing God or Christ , viz of internal , spiritual Revelation , Matth. 11.27 . Ioh. 6.47 . 1 Cor. 2.9 , 10 , 11 , 12. Gal. 1.16 . Did Paul believe , or witness , or write any other things when he wrote with his own hands what was immediately revealed & in spired into him by the same holy spirit , then what by the same spirit [ in which and no other way all the things of God are known , and ever were ] holy men of God believed , owned , witnessed , wrote , and both in their Writings and Speakings acknowledged to be the truth ? see Act 24.14 . 26.22 , 23. 2 Cor. 1 13. 4.13 . Did he write any other things then what they to whom he wrote might , and did read elsewhere , even in the light and spirit within themselves , and did thereby acknowledge to be the truth ? And did not he himself , before he wrote them in the movings of the spirit , acknowledge them to be the truth himself ? And did he in the light in which he liv'd and saw them , acknowledge them to be the truth , and yet was not enabled by any habitual Light , knowledge , or conviction of the truth , to declare them in writing , as he did , but wrote as one ignorant , in the dark , unbelieving , and unconvinced of the truths he wrote , and as senselesse , unintelligently , and passively , without any active obedience to the spirit pressing him , or yeelding any but a meer passive influence and concurrence of his rational faculties in the worker , as a meer dead thing that is utterly devoid of all kind of life , motion , or principle of Action within it self , and uncapable of any action at all , or motion , but as it is acted ab extra , by some forensical force or compulsion , as a Musical , Woodden instrument , or a pen by the hand of the writer ? what a weak , crooked , crazy piece of conception of Scripture in this of thine ? of which I may truly say there was not so much active concurrence of the rational faculties of the Scribes in their writing of the Scripture , but there is as little in this of thine , who writest as if all the Prophets of God that ever spake and wrote what of his minde they received from his own mouth by standing in his counsel , and hearkning to what he said in them , and waited on him to know and understand his will and word first , that they might do it in the particular in their own persons , and ( as moved or commanded ) in obedience to him declare it to others , were absolutely and meerly as passive as Balaams Ass was , whose mouth miraculously was opened , and his minde indued with rational faculties ( supernatural to him as he was a Beast ) to Reason out the case with his unrighteous Master , and to reprove the madness of that Prophet ; and as meerly passive in their work of Prophesie , as Caiphas the High Priest was , whose mouth was opened to speak truer than he was aware of , and to prophesie of a thing out of his irrational faculties , that was as high above the reach of the best rational faculties he had ( being a man degenerate from pure perfect reason and in the fall ) as fallen mans best reason is above the brute beasts of the field ; for as Herod and Pontius Pilate did with wicked hands the things that God before determined should come to pass , fulfilling the Prophets words in slaying Christ , little thinking they served the truth as they did in it ( as the Assyrian in the like case ) they meant not so , nor did their heart think otherwise than to destroy , Isa. 10.5 , 6 , 7. Act. 4.27 , 28. Act. 3.17 , 18. Act. 13.27 , 28 , 29. So that Priest with a wicked heart , intentionally to counsel them to murther Christ , had his mouth prepared to Prophesie a precious truth , which , as so , he spake not of himself , so as one that had the light , knowledge , or conviction of the truth , but besides himself as the Ass in the other case , Numb . 22.28 , 29 , 30. Joh. 11.29 . 50 , 51 , 52 , 53. Joh. 10.14 . Whereas most evident it is that the holy men of God , who wrote any part of the Scripture by immediate inspiration with their own hands ( to let pass that which some wrote for and from them as dictated to by their mouthes ) were in the light , sight , knowledge , prae-conviction , comprehension , beleef , and acknowledgement of the truth habitually , and were thereby inabled to declare it , and from thence did declare it accordingly , as in the wisdome of the Spirit they saw it serviceable , and as by it they were moved so to do . I am not ignorant that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ( as so ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divinely inspired , and ( as so ) infallible , and acted , born , carried by the holy Spirit in what they spake and wrote about which matters what a mighty marvelling , and hideous ditty , and wonderful deal of Do doth J.O. make in his muddy minde , of which ( since he is so amazed that any such matter should be so much as pretended to in those dayes I may likely speak more particularly in another place . But what of all this ? because they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , moved by the holy Spirit in what they did will it therefore follow they were meerly passive in their work , without any such active obedience as was in the light required of them , and without any exercise at all , save such as was passive , of their rational faculties therein , without being inabled by any habitual light , &c. or use of their own understanding , wisdome , memories , or the like in any writings of what they so wrote ? as if they actively entred no more than stocks and stones into the services they were set on work in ? surely though they were instruments and organs into which the Word was brought by the Spirit as they waited on the Lord , for the revelation and manifestation of it to them , yet they were living organs and instruments not only 〈◊〉 to the natural , but also to that supernatural or spiritual life of God , the things of which they wrote and declared , and so were as it were subordinate efficients and inferiour Agents , concurring by the use and exercise of their reason and rational faculties , which grace and the Spirit of God perfects , heightens , and delivers from the defects therein contracted by transgression , and doth not destroy . And howbeit I deny not still but that the Prophets that pend any Scripture were passive , as I said before , in the reception of the minde of God manifested to them in the light , so far as the receiver of a gift is to the giver , from whom he can command , nor have nothing unless it be given him , and were no otherwise active , than as beggars ( who are not to be chusers ) waiting at the door of wisdom , and on God in the light within to see what he will give , and in order to the obtaining it , yet when the light and word was given out , they were so far active ( so all are not whereupon many go without it ) as waiters are , when they receive what is given , and also far active as according to the measure of the gift of grace , or knowledge received , when the Spirit moved them so to do , to go forth , and minister either by preaching , or writing , or what way they found their call to serve in , some one way , some another , and every individual , sometimes one way , sometimer another , as Paul said , Rom. 12.6 , 7. Having gifts differing according to the grace given , whether prophesis , let us prophesie according to the proportion of faith , i.e. each his own proportion and measure ( not as you Divines , who have a common Analogy of faith , or stock of unsavoury Divinity among you , according to which ye Minister ) or Ministry let us wait on our Ministring , or he that teacheth on teaching , or exhorteth on exhortation , &c. which things , whether done by voice or writing is all one , they were not to do but as the Spirit moved or acted them , yet in both were they not only acted by the Spirit , but subordinately active with him in those several ministrations , as good stewards of the manifold grace of God , speaking , ministring , whether in speech or Scripture , as the Oracles of God in all faithfulness , which is required in stewards , 1 Cor. 4.1 , 2. 1 Pet. 4.10 , 11. who though it is their Master that doth all supremely by them , and acts by them , and speaks and writes , and manages all affairs by their Ministration , as the Spirit of the Father doth in his Saints and Children , yet by his power and the gift of his grace received [ in the juncture and very period of receiving of which they were passive ] they concurred actively in the work of writing , as the Saints do in the working out of their own salvation , when God hath once wrought in them to will and to do of his own good pleasure , Phil. 2.13 , 14. so that of the most immediate Writers of the Scriptures from the mouth of God , it might be said as it is of all Saints , Licetnec per se operantur , nec aequaliter co-operantur , yet aliqualiter saltèm , etiam & activè concurrunt cum causa operante , they wrought and wrote neither wholly of themselves , nor equally with the Spirit , yet even actually concurred with him in the act of writing , so as a pen or musical instrument doth not , which is not subjectum capax , a subject capable to act or move actively in the works of man , any more than a stone can concur actively to the throwing of it self . And being , though but organs or instruments , as thou sayest the Prophets were , into whom the words they wrote were brought , yet sith living organs or instruments alive to God by participation of his divine nature to the things of that life and nature , they were consequently active organs and instruments , and subordinate Agents and efficients , and as well willingly acting , as acted therein , in the day of Gods power , wherein his people are a willing people , as dead organs and instruments cannot be . For sith vita est Actus corporis organici quatenus organicum , life of every kinde is no less than an Act or operative power of every thing that hath it to act or work such actions as are agreeable to its nature , the life of God in such as by the light of Christ in whom is the life , and whose life is the light of men , Joh. 1.2 , 3. Joh. 12. are led and born thereunto , is an Act or spiritual operative power to do and perform such actions as are suitable to man , before he dyed by transgression , and according to the will of God revealed , as posita anima in corpore organico ( quâ tali ) sequitur vita , & posita vitâ sequitur operatio motio &c. naturalis , so posito spiritu in animâ recipiente sequitur & vita & actio spiritualis . So the holy men that wrote the Scripture as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. inspired and moved by the holy Spirit which brought the truth unto them , he pressed them to write , were not according to J. O's vain figment of them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acted and hurried like some stone thrown , or pen handled which is meerly and only passive in what is done , but acted , as all Saints are in their measures , to that of writing his truth or any other good work when called by him to it i.e. not without , but with such an active obedience , as by his Law or Light within they are obliged to , not without an active concurrence of rational faculties reduced to their primitive perfection , not without , but with ability thereto from an habitual light , knowledge and conviction of truth , and use of their wisdomes and understandings , memories , not without , but with an aforehand containing and comprehending of the truths they wrote , in their mindes as things they had heard , seen , beleeved , acknoledged , &c. God who who is the giver of every good gift , and the chief Author and Actor of all good works in his Saints , Isa. 26. using every instrument according to what he hath fitted it for , a Beast as a Beast , a Man as a Man , a Saint as a Saint , a Prophet as a Prophet , and not a Man a Saint , a Prophet , a spiritual man as a stock or stone , but being a reasonable creature , and prepared by him naturally with such a soul such faculties , and supernaturally and spiritually with such gifts and graces , as whereby he is capable to act , when by him commanded , and a body suitable as a fit instrument to move in such a work , as writing his will revealed , when it is revealed also to be his will that he should write it , he uses him so to write as that though himself be the principal or primum movens , not only in act● primo as he gives the pomer , faculties , gift , graces , &c. but in actu secundo also , he holds the hand of the Scrib● , so that he would else draw but mishapen characters , and guides , assists , and acts in and by him , yet he lets the action bear its denomination from its next and immediate Agent , which is not God himself , who gives the word for the writing of what he will have written in the penning of the Scripture ( except that little , i.e. the ten words as is abovesaid ) but men as being moved by him to write or to dictate to others whom they willed to write from their mouthes , so that the immediate spring and emanation of the Scripture was not from God , but men who were the agents in it under him , which overturns J. O's Apish opinion of every Apex of the writing being equally divine , and as to its original as immediately from God , and of the same Authority in itself , and to us , i e. of being received as his word , sub paena , &c. on pain of peril of eternal condemnation , as his voice in the Prophets which indeed was immediately from himself , and his own witness ; whereas the letter was mostly but the immediate work of man , witnessing for God as moved by him , as first given out , and as we now have it by so remote away of Transcription , welnigh as far from being immediately from God to us as J.O. imagines it is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And as it is with Saints indeed when they pray , beleeve preach , write , &c. as moved by the Lord , it is not denominated ever by the Author of it all , which is God , who speaks and works all in such , and is in such of a truth , 1 Cor. 14. but the Saints who are said to pray , beleeve , preach , write , so was it in the giving out of that Scripture or writing that was of old called the Bible , which J.O. calls his Canon , to which no Title more must ever be counted ; which was not , nor is not so immediate from God to us as his own voice is , that is at this day to be heard in the heart , but onely mediantibus manuscriptionibus , yea by the interveniency of mediums , and hands of Transcribers and Translators obnoxious to fallibility , and capable to give change and alteration in more then the least syllables and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 's , but at the first it was no more immediately from God than the writings of his moved and inspired Prophets are at this day , whom he stirs up to reprove the madness of the Priests and false Prophets , which is as that was , but the spiritual mans testimony for God , though specially assisted by him in it ; concerning all whom from the beginning of the world to this day , so many as have spoken or written , or done any thing for the truth in his name , I here say , and so conclude as to that above . Certum est no ● velle cum volumus dicere cum dicimus , praedicare cum praedicamus , scribere cum scribimus , facere cum facimus , sed Deus est , qui facit ut faciamus . J.O. Thou addest pag. 26. They invented not words themselves suitable to the things they had learned , but only expressed the words they received , their words were not their own but immediately supplied unto them from God himself , and so they gave out the writing of uprightness , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of truth . Rep. And yet it 's said , Eccles. 12.9 , 10 , 11 , 12. as concerning the Writings and Proverbs of Solomon the Wise , the Preacher which very place thou alludest to , though thou quotest it not , which if thou hadst , there 's few so unwise , but they might see thy folly therein , for that Scripture clearly confutes thy self who touchest at it , that in teaching the people knowledge ( as he did by those Writings and Books of Proverbs he gave forth ) he took good heed , and sought out , and set in order many Proverbs ( even thousands more , besides above a thousand Songs more then are systematiz'd into thy standing-Canon ) and that he sought to find out acceptable words , or words of delight , or rather ( as thy self expoundest it more clearly to the confounding of thy self , as if thou wert accustomed and wonted to that work and course of self-contradiction words of will or choice , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; all which if it be not Tantamount to this , He invented words suitable to what he himself had framed , whereby to utter and express the wisdom he received , to people in writing , [ and yet what was written , was upright too , and words of truth , not beside the spirit of truth ] and so I.O. consequently confuted by I.O. himself about the Scripture ; ( If the Scripture it self had not confuted him ) then self-confounding , which I.O. is so often found in , shall pass for me for current confirmation ; and confusion , which I.O. is a most eminent Author of , shall go from henceforth for good order ; and to dance the rounds , as I. O. often doth in his , shall be held the rightest way of sound Doctrine , and of all Divinity Disputation : For as if he had not been satisfied with his own gain-saying , what he uttered concerning their not inventing of words , and non-improving of their understandings , wisdoms , minds , memories , p. 25. to order , dispute , give out what truth they wrote , in such words as they saw best suited for the things they had learned of God , by saying to the contrary , thus : Viz. Their mind and understanding were used in the choice of words they did use , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of will or choice . I.O. [ to go round again ] gain-sayes this latter saying by which he had once gain-sayed the former , returning to his former again , Ex. 1. S. 29. where his Latine words Englisht are in this [ foolish ] wise , viz. to express the sence they conceived of the mind and will of God , the words in those tongues in which by the command and ordination of God the Scripture is written , were both conceived and disposed by the holy Spirit , and not permitted or left to the wisdom , and will , or arbitrement of the Writers themselves . * So of this sound piece of round Doctrine of I.O. this is the sum : They that wrote the Scripture , did not invent , chuse , or seeke words , nor was it left to their minds , understandings , will , wisdoms , &c. to express the truth ; yet ( to go round again ) they did use words of will or choice , their mind and understanding were used in the choice of words ; yet [ to go round again ] to express the will and mind of God , the words were not left to the will and wisdom of the writers . Let the Reader chuse which of the two contradictory conclusions of I.O. he will take as true ; yet as one of them is , and both cannot be true ; so true it is that I.O. runs the rounds , and contradicts himself here , as he doth in twenty places more of his self-consuting Fardel . I. O. Thou addest , p. 9 , 10. That in their writing they were not onely on a general account to utter the truth they were made acquainted with all , and to speak the things they had heard and seen , which was their common Preaching-work ; but also the very individual words they had received , were to be declared . And p. 9. quoting Mat. 10.10 . That the Apostles were not the Speakers of what they delivered , as other men are , the Figment , and Imagination of whose hearts are the Fountain of all that they speak , but the spirit of the Father in them . Rep. How hangs this true passage , viz. They were to utter the truth they were acquainted withall , and write the things they had heard and seen , together by the ears with that false passage , p. 5 , 6. Where thou sayest , The Stories , Laws , Doctrines , Instructions , Promises , Prophesies they gave out , were not retained in their memories from what they had heard , nor by any means before-hand comprehended by them , &c. What clouds of witnesses be here to the clearing of the Spirit , by which thou writest to be a Spirit of self-contradiction . 2. Was not their common Preaching-work , and their common Writing-work all one , as to the choice of Words wherein they declared ? Were they at liberty when they preached , to ramble into words of their own meere will , choice , and invention , and limited when they wrote , so that they might not express themselves in such words as in the will and wisdome of God , in which they dwelt and liv'd , they saw meet for the matter in hand ? but just tyed to the individual words brought to them as immediately by inspiration , as the matter , or Word of God it self they wrote of ? Who acquainted thee with this whimsical , non-sensical notion , that they in their work of Preaching disposed and ordered their words as in wisdom they saw them acceptable , or serviceable ; but in their work of Writing they might dispose , order , chuse , and in wisdom seek to find out acceptable words , but had every Tittle more immediately put into them , then when they spake the Truth by word of mouth ? Dost not thou thy self say , p. 9. Mat. 10.10 . That the Apostles were not the Speakers of what they delivered , but the Spirit in them ? Whereby the truer that is tthe more clearely thou contradictest thy self again , and intimatest no less then thus much ; that the Spirit as immediately and distinctly brought to them , gave , and put into their minds and mouths what words they should use when they were speaking , as what words they should use when they were Writing . So that what ever was their common Preaching-Work , and common Writing-Work , in both which it 's true enough that they were assisted specially , and in both equally by the holy spirit , in the wisdom , power , evidence , and demonstration of which speaking in them , and moving them , who were obedient to him , to an active improvement and exercise of their rational faculties , minds , understandings , wills , memories thereunto , they both preached and wrote , 1 Cor. 2.4 . 2 Cor. 3.12 . and so uttered no other truth then they were mostly made acquainted withall by the spirit within themselves , and heard and saw by the light within , as well as by hear-say , and the Writings of one another from without : Yet the common Preaching-work , and Writing-work of thy self and thy fellow - Ministers , not of the Light and Spirit , but of the Letter , out of which ye surtively fetch , filch , and steal all your stuff and furniture wherewith ye feed people till they starve , I say , Your Preaching and Writing is of things that ye are not acquainted with from the Spirit of the Father , nor from its manifestings the mind of God within you , and moving you to utter them in words of his own immediate suggesting and supplying ; but a certain uttering forth in your own wills and times , of what ye have no otherwise then by hearsay , or from the Scriptures of those who spake and wrote ( as mov'd ) no more then what they both saw , and heard , and handled of the Word of Life ; a certain rude handling what ye never felt your selves , nor your own hands ever yet handled of that Word of Life , ye read others writing of ; a heedless holding forth of what ye hear not , but onely hear of ; a talkative treating on what Truth ye do not truly taste of ; an impudent intruding of your selves into a self-ended shewing of what ye have not seen , but as at second-hand ye see it shew'd in the Scripture , by such as were in the true sight and substantial being of it , vainly puffed up in your fleshly minds ; in which respect ye are no true Ministers , nor true Witnesses for God , but false Witnesses , even when ye testifie the truth , which is not yours , as well as when ye tell lyes , and teach the untruths , which are your own , as the old Truth stealers , and Word-sellers were , who though they said , because they found it so said by such as felt it , The Lord lives , which is the truth , yet they spake falsely , forasmuch as they witnessed him nor risen and alive , but murdered , stew , kill'd , and crucified the holy and just one within themselves ; and spake not , as Christ and his did , what they knew , Ioh. 3.11 . and testified not what they had seen , but worshipped , and worded it about what they knew not , Iohn 4.22 . And so as a man can't be counted a Legal witness in foro hominum , in a civil Court of Judicature among men , that shall testifie of another's theft , murder , and scandal , at second hand , that is , not as an immediate eye , or ear-witnesse of it , but on his reading in a Letter , or hear-say from such as were so ; so , much less in foro Dei & Ecclesiae , can any be owned as a true Minister of the New-Testament , which is not of the Letter , but the Spirit , that Ministers and Testifies no more then what he hath meerly read in , and stole out of the Letter , and not what he hath seen , felt , heard and handled of the living Word inwardly , in the spirit ; and further by thy own confession , since thou saist the Apostles were not as other men are in their speakings and writings , the figment and imaginations of whose hearts are the fountain of all they speak , and ownest not thy self and thy fellows to be Apostles of Christ , ( for thou deemest there are none so in these dayes ) but other men , thou thereby ownest , ( but speak for thy self and thy fellows however , and not for all ; for we know some Apostles now as of old there were ) the figment and imagination of your own hearts , to be the Fountain of all ye speak ; What need we further witness to this , since we read it uttered from thy own mind and hand ? And lastly , since thou sayest the Pen-men of the Scripture were so tyed up to the very individual words received by them , and put into them by the holy Spirit , And p. 25 , 26. were to deliver and write as all , so nothing but that to every Tittle that was so brought unto them , not altering nor adding , &c. of their own in their wisdoms and understandings ; it should seem then , according to your own Principles , that God gave out by them what was sufficient to guide men ( if outward Writing or Scripture was by him intended to be their Rule ) and if they themselves might not amplifie , nor add , nor enlarge , nor comment upon the Word of God manifested by them in the Scripture , by the exercising of their rational faculties , but were to rest in so much as was revealed in them by the spirit , and to others in Writing by them ; What need then is there of those infinite and endless odd Additions that the Doctors and Divines have made from generation to generation to the Scipture , of their own voluminous inventions , interpretations , and as divided , as devised Divinations , extravagant Expositions , incomprehensible Commentaries , confus'd Contradictions , Cantings one to another , and to the world , to the confounding of it , with many more Humbles of their Senses , Meanings , Opinions , Thoughts about the Bible , then it can contain , amounting in Bulk perhaps to a thousand times more then the Bible comes to ? And who gave you Text-men such a Liberty and Authority to take the Text and talk on it in your Wisdoms , Wils , Words and Vnderstandings , opening , amplifying , paraphrasing , prating out the plain truth as it there lyes , so unprofitably to people in your own phrases , to your own outward profit , at your pleasure ? Did he that bounded and limited , and hedg'd in the Writers , saying [ according to thy sense ] hitherto , thus far shall ye manifest my mind in Writing , and no further , lend you such a boundless latitude to prate out your own opinions , and turn you loose and unmuzled in pratum vestrum , ubi non est sepes ? Was not the mind of God in that Scripture given out by God himself full enough , and plain enough , at least in matters necessary to salvation for the meanest capacity to understand when it 's read to them , in the words wherein it seemed good to the holy spirit , and the holy Penmen to write it out , without such a bottomless deal of adding , amplifying and expounding , as your excentrick Academical Exorcists make about it ? When Paul wrote to Timothy , Titus , Philemon , and the Churches , and Iohn to the Lady , and Gaius , and Luke his story of what Christ and the Apostles said and did , were there need , much more absolute necessity of a Priest to be sent for in all haste to open what they meant to such as they sent their Letters to , in a tongue that they well understood ? And now the Scripture is translated into our own Mother-Tongue in England , such as can read , may read and understand it ; and such as can't read , may have it read to them at their own Houses , there being one or other in every House almost , that can read now , even very children if old folks cannot ; which being read , is tenfold more plain in such places as pertain necessarily to salvation , to every honest , understanding , and plain-minded man that is willing to do the will of God there written of , then the costly Comments , and manifold hampered handlings , and more perplexize unfoldings of it , that are made by our Schoolmen , and Vniversity Theological Professors : So that what more need then of old when the Letter came newly forth , for a Priest to be placed in every Parish for pay , to darken the counsel of God in the Scripture , by his words without knowledge , under a pretence of opening it ; or if it were an opening , as it rather is a shutting of the Kingdom of Heaven against men , [ as our Scribes , Pharisees , and Hypocrites , like them of old , manage that matter , and use their Keys of Knowledge in another kind of manner then honest Peter ] What need of hundreds a year to be paid in Parishes for the opening of one or two Texts or Verses in a Week ? Or rather [ as some draw it out ] the talking on some one Text for a Month , or a quarter of a year together , against the Light and Spirit from whence it was written ? If those that wrote it , might not meddle to say a little more , as I.O. sayes , in their Wisdoms , though they were as spiritually fluent and learnt , as National Ministers are spiritually ignorant ; It would be more useful then now it is , through your miserable Mangonizations of it , by your se●ces on open places , if your Wisdoms would leave it as it is , without making out your misty meanings on it , to poormen for so much money . J. O. Thou addest , That the declaration of the New Testament gave out the minde and will of God in a way of morel's e●●y and glory without that dread and terrour which was peculiar to the Old , and to the Pedagogit thereof , in which the coming of the word had oftentimes such a greatness and expression of the Majesty of God upon it as filled them with dread and reverence of him , Hab. 3.16 . and also greatly affected even their outward man , Dan. 8.27 . Rep. Here thou talkest again like thy self , like a man ignorant ( as thou art for all thy high conceit of thy self ) of the Scriptures thou art scribling so for , and of the things therein declared , both before and since Christ , which two Termes thou countest the times of the Old Testament and the New , and so they figuratively are , howbeit as to the thing it self ( which is yet far above out of thy sight ) the Gospel had children from Adam to this day under Moses his out outward Pedagogie , and the Law , whose children are of the Bond-woman , and not Heirs according to the promise with the children of the Free , hath its children as well since that juncture of Christs Incarnation as before . And as for thy inconsiderate position concerning the peculiarity of dread and terrour in receiving of the word from God by the writers of the Scripture to the Pedagogie of the Old Testament and times before , Christ , such as greatly affected the outward man with trembling and astonishment , for which thou citest both Habakkuk and Daniel , as it the times since Christ knew no such matter , as true Trembling , or any such Quaking as may affect the outward man , but what is fained , and from Satan , and the force and power of the evil Spirit imitating in his filthy Tripodes and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that Dread and Terrour , which is by the Power of God upon his people , of which said fictitious sort thou falsely and foolishly fainest all that outward Trembling , that is found among the Qua. to be at this day , pag. 8. & Ex. 1. S. 1. I say hadst thou been as well read and skilled in Scripture , as by thy scribling pro Scripturis , thou wouldest fain seem to be , surely thou wouldest have found that Paul and John both were found in as great Tremblings and Astonishments , Dread and Terrour to the great affecting of the outward man , under the Appearances of the Lord to them in Visions and Revelations of his minde and will to them , which they wrote , as either Daniel , Habakkuk , or the rest of the Prophets before Christ that wrote them , insomuch that they scarce knew sometimes where they were , whether in , or out of the body , but were as dead with fear , Act. 9 6.26.14 . 1 Cor. 2.3 . 2 Cor. 12.2 , 3. Rev. 1.17 . But alas J.O. is so taken up and hurried in his thoughts in a hideous talking for the Scriptures , that he hath little time to give any very great good heed to the Scriptures themselves he so talks for . J.O. Thou addest pag. 6 , 7. That , as far as their own personal concernments as Saints and beleevers did lye in the things they wrote , they studied the writings and Prophesies of one another , Dan. 9.2 . and made a diligent enquiry thereby in order to the investigation of the things which the Spirit that spake in themselves did signifie , 1 Pet. 1.10.10 . without which though their Visions were express , yet they understood them not ; and that they attained a saving useful , habitual knowledge of the truths delivered by themselves and others by the illumination of the Holy Ghost , through the study of the Word , [ i.e. Scripture with thee still ] even as ye do , Psal. 119 104. but as to the receiving of the Word from God , as God Spoke in them , they obtained nothing by study or meditation , by enquiry or reading , Am. 7.15 . Rep. Here is such a parcel of uncouth prate about the Prophets and their Prophesie of Scriptures , and the Scriptures of their Prophesies , as favours of nothing but that illiterateness and ignorance of the true wayes of coming to the saving knowledge , and understanding of the minde and will of God , that abounds in Vniversities [ the supposed Nurseries as well of spiritual learning as any other ] well nigh as much as in any places of the ( so called ) Christian world besides . What dreaming , what darkness and confusion is here ? As if the Writers of the Scriptures , because they were moved by the holy Spirit to write what they did , therefore wrote they did not know what themselves , nor in any wise sawingly understood every one his own piece of writing , or Scripture , pag. 5. whether of Histories , or Prophesies , or Proverbs , or Psalms , or Instructions , or Doctrines , or Laws , or Promises , or what ever tru he recorded , delivered , made known , given out , revealed by themselves , revealed to them first from God , as to their own concernment therein , as Saints or beleevers , by the Revelation thereof to them from God ( which as I said above is the only way of coming to the saving knowledge of any truth , and not that of reading it , as truth , in anothers writings ) without running out to study and read the writings of some other men in order to their attaining any habitual , saving , useful intelligence of their own ; as if Isaiah , that Evangelical Prophet did not savingly understand the Gospel Doctrines and Promises , and Instructions , and his own Recorded History of Senacherib and Hezekiah , and other saving truths delivered and written by himself , as they were revealed to him by the Lord , nor by the voice , Spirit and light of God himself manifesting them within him , nor as he received the word so revealed and manifested ( in order to which receiving the word thou assertest also they obtained nothing by study , or meditation , enquiry or reading but onely as he made diligent enquiry , study and search after the things the Spirit signified by him in the writings and Scriptures of some other Prophets : I wonder what other parts of Scripture of the other Prophets he studied so , to get that saving knowledge by , since unless it were the Psalmes , the last book of which is judged to have been compiled together by the Maccabees long after his dayes , excepting also the three , i.e. Hos a , Amos , and Micah , that were co aetaneous with him , all other Prophets that are ranked after him in your Bibles ( though not in the same order of time wherein they wrote ) wrote long after him : and as if Ezekiel , Jeremiah , Daniel , or the rest knew not savingly what they wrote themselves no more then we do , as to themselves , or any personal interest they had in the truths of their own writings , but as they got an useful saving knowledges thereof out of each others writings ; in proof of which , if a man would wrest them , as thou doest to thine , by the head and shoulders , to such a purpose , he might almost as easily evince the Pope to be head of Christs Church , as draw any such matter , as this thou concludest from Scripture . That of 1 Pet. 1.10 , 11. Ministers no more matter of evidence to thy imagination in this particular , that the Prophets searched other Prophets writings to finde out each the meaning of his own , then Peters being at Rome , if ever he were there , doth to his being the Popes Predecessor there in the holy Chair . 'T is true the Prophets are there said to enquire and search diligently after the salvation and the grace that comes unto the Saints at the revelation of Christ ; but is there no searching and enquiring after the salvation , and the fulness of the grace of God , but i● the letter ? is not the most succesful searching after these matters made in the light it self , that teaches and shews it , and brings the salvation nigh to all that wait for it therein , which light or grace hath appeared to all men , Tit. 2.11 , 12. and is t●e●e any way whereby God gives the knowledge of his own glory but the light from himself , which the letter speaks of , wherewith God , who commands the light to shine out of darkness , shines into the hearts of the Saints in order thereunto ? 2 Cor. 4.5 , 6. And are not all things that are manifested , manifested in the light , and is there any thing that doth make manifest but the said light and Spirit , which the letter speaks of , and which was before the letter was ? Eph. 5.13 . and doth God reveal the hidden mysteries of the Gospel any way but by his Spirit to his Saints , which searcheth all things even the deep things of God ? and doth any know the things of God , but the Spirit of God , and the spiritual men , who in it , and not by the letter ( which letter the world hath , yet hath not the other ) have minde of Christ ? 1 Cor. 2.9 . to the end : And in that of Peter coted by thee , is there the least hint of the Scriptures , or of the Prophets searching the Scriptures , or of any signification of the things they ministred to others in their writings by the Scriptures , but only by the Spirit ? And as for Daniel , it is true he understood by the books of Jeremiah the cer●ain number of seventy years , how long the Captivity should last , but what of that , num ex puris particularibus aliquid sequit●● universale ? Wilt thou argue from one to all ? much more wilt thou infer from thence that neither Daniel , nor any other Prophets , understood their own writings , but by the Scriptures of the other Prophets , which is the absurdity thou assertest ? And as for Davids saying , Through thy Precepts I get understanding . Hast thou got no more understanding yet then to beleeve that the Precepts , Statutes , ●udgements , Laws , Commandments , Testimonies , Word , Ordinances , Wayes , Truth , Name one or other of which names is either in the singular , or in the plural number used in every individual verse ( excepting two ) throughout that long 119. Psalm consisting of an 176. verses , no other thing is meant but the outward letter , writing , or Scripture of Moses five books , very little more than which was extant in Davids dayes wherein the ten words which God wrote with his own hand , and a few more Ceremonious matters were recorded by the hand of Moses ? Is not the Commandement , or Word , or Law of God ( as the letter speaks ) the Lamp or Light that the letter only speaks of , Psal. 19.7 . &c. 119.105 . Prov 6.23 . And if all the other Prophets that succeeded Moses studied the writing● of Moses , and one another in order to the knowledge of their own Prophetical writings , without which they understood them not savingly , as thou sillily sayest , yet I wonder what other Prophets writing● Moses himself who was one of the Prophets , not excepted by thee , searched and studied , that he might get a saving understanding of that truth that was penn'd by himself , sith , as thou thinkest at least , there were no Scriptures extant before him , for Enochs Prophesies have no standing in your Standard . I wonder Quae colliquia cum Angelis vel ficta velfacta , quis enthusiasmus quis afflatus caelestis , aut ( reapse , vis mali spiritus did suggest these fantasms into thy fancy , Ex. 1. Ex. S. ●8 . thou hast little need to detest the Qua. as Enthusiasis that entertainest and utterest to the world as undoubted truths such Amick Enthusiasmes as these . Sundry other such shallow furmises and suppositions are very positively propounded and set down by thee in thy first Chapter of thy first Treatise , which I shall let pass here , some of which may possibly be touch't on elsewhere ! But this may suffice to give a taste of that untruth , which thy two Treatises are under-propt with , whereby from the falsenesse , faultinesse , foolishnesse , and unsoundness of thy ground-work and foundation , and from the brittleness of thy Basis ( so thou call'st , p. 1.28.30 . this Original part of thy Book , concerning the Divine Original , and immediate manner of the Scriptures coming forth from God to us ) the reasonable Reader may read aforehand what a Come-down Castle the rest of thy Babylonish Building is like to be , for howbeit I grant that the Word of God and the holy truth in its first coming forth from God to the holy Pen-men that heard his voice , and so wrote it as moved by him , was of an immediate Divine original , in which respect it is said no Prophesie of the Scripture is of private Interpretation , or to be counted no more upon than a private mans wri●ing , which writes of his own head ( as thou dost ) the figment and imagination of whose heart , fancies & thoughts are the fountain of all that is uttered , but as that which holy men of God were moved to write , and the outward Scripture it self may be said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i.e. penned by men as they were inspired by God , or the fruit and effect of no self-afflation , but according to the motion or inflation of the holy Spirit ; yet that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou makest such a deal of work about , as the Original of the Copies of the Original of the Scripture and their coming forth from God , was not so immediately from God to those that lived when they were first given out , much less to us now , as thou imaginest in thy vain mind , who dotest that every Apex of that Text is equally Divine and as immediately from God to us as the very voice of God in the Prophets was to them , without the least mixture or interveniency of any mediums or wayes obnoxious , to fallibility or capable of giving change or alteration to the least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or syllable thereof , pag. 10.30.153 . for that came from God at first ( excepting the Decalogue and that little to Belshazzar , which ye have now , but remote Copies of ) not without the interveniency , medium and way of mans hand-writing , which is it were ( as being infallibly guided by the Spirit ) obnoxious to no fallibility , yet as it comes to you , who own that and no other to be your inalterable Standard , it s far from coming immediately from God , sith it is not without the interveniency of the hands of welnigh innumerable unknown Transcribers , the very first and best of whom were so far from non-obnoxiousness to fallibility that thou thy self sayest , pag. 167. that neither all nor any of them were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infallible or divinely inspired , so that it was impossible for them to mistake , and that religious care and diligence in their works with a due reverence of him with whom they had to do is all thou ascribest to them , and p. 10. that the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge and memory of the best of all men is obnoxious 〈◊〉 fallibility , and also that it s known they did fail . Neither , if the Question were about the Autographae or first Manuscripts that were far more immediate then thy far fetcht Apographae or modern Copies are , ( howbeit thy main business is about the magnifying thy confestedly mistranscribed Transcripts and fallible Copies , and not the other , which being acknowledged by thee to be lost , perished , and mouldred out of the world , nemo post homines natos aequè ac tu delerasse censendus esset si pro scripturis ipsis scriptis hisce argumentare statueris , thy dotage would justly be deemed of a deeper die than any mans to argue for them , if he be a fool of al fool , that fight● for the non-corruptibility of what is long since corrupted ) but I say were thy vehement vindication and Apologetical appearances pro Scripturis for the individual manuscripts of the holy men that wrote the minde of God more immediately from his mouth , than any of thy Transcribers , that copy out things as carefully as they can as they find them copied out before them , and were they still extant in rerum natura , yet the immediacy even of those first Scriptures from God to us was not so absolute without any medium at all , as thou imaginest and intimatest from the Tex● used by thee , and ushered , in with such a deal of pomp and ceremony in proof thereof , p. 11. viz. 2 Pet. 1.20 , 21. Knowing this that no Prophesie of Scripture is of any private inter●pretation , for the Prophecy came not of old time by the will of man , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost . This thou writest all over in Greek first , then in English , and then descantest paraphrastically upon it in many pages as if thou wouldest beat thy beleef upon men , and cudgel them into thy conceit of the Scriptures being as immediately from God to us in every Apex , as his voice by which he spake in the holy men that wrote it , was in them , and that assuredly beyond all doubt or exception , because Peter sayes , No Prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretati●n , nor came by mans will , but Gods , and holymen spake us moved by his Spirit , yea pag. 23 , 24. thou runst away an end it with it , as an undoubted truth , and layest it down as it were supernaculum , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 knowing , judging , determining this in the first place , this is a principl● to be owned and acknowledged by every one that will beleeve any thing else . This then in our Religion is to be owned , acknowledged , submitted unto as a principle without further dispute , that this is so indeed as before asserted , and to give a reason , why this to be received as a principle , it is added vers . 21. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of Prophecy is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of private acceptation , for it came not , was brought into them not at any time by the will of men , but by the will of God : And further it is added by the Apostle , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they were acted , born , carried out to speak , deliver , write all that , and nothing but that to every Tittle that was so brought to them by the Holy Ghost . What a pompous piece of proof here is of the Scriptures coming from God to us , disht out with great store of circumstance , having no substance or purport at all in it to the purpose in hand ; for however J.O. cannot discern how to distinguish between these two Terms , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●●e Prophecy of the Scripture , and the Scripture of the Prophecy , the changeable Text ●● and unchangeable Truth , the meer let●er , and the holy matter , yet Peter speaks not there of the Scripture , which comes to us immediately from men writing , not in their own wills , but at the will of God , as moved by his Spirit , but of the Prophecy thereof , which we confess came immediately from God to the holy men of God , and to others mediately , not without the intervenieny of their hand-writing of it , V●rbum sat sapienti , insipiensi plura plus satis . Neither doth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou makest such work about elsewhere viz. p. 57. in a case somewhat consonant with this , urging out of 2 Tim. 2.16 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 necessarily intimate such an absolute immediacy of the outward Text from God as thou wotest , for as there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Writing or Scripture that is more ad intra , than the Writing ●d extra , legible by the external eye , which thy minde and eyes are altogether a gadding after , as if there were no other , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a Scripture written not with Inke , but with the Spirit of the living God , not in Tables of stone , but in fleshly Tables of the heart , 2 Cor 3.2 , 3. which whether Paul to Timothy doth not speak of , as that which he had known from his youth , and was able to make him wise to salvation , and as being by the inspiration of God , and profitable to the perfecting of them in of God to furnish him for Doctrine , Reproof , Instruction inrighteousness , and ev●ry go●d work , is well worth your serious enquiry , who search so shallowly into the Scripture that ye seldome meet with the marrow and true mystery of any Text yé talk ón , so if you will needs have that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to intend the external Text only , as being by inspiration of God , yet that phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or by inspiration from God , doth not denote necessarily the strictest degree of immediation , nor can it found out so much , as if the said outward letter came from him without any medium , but it came as t is ●aid in the other place , 2 Pet. 1.20 . according to the will of God from men moved by him to write it , so according to the motion of Gods Spirit , or his inflations or blowings upon the hearts of holy men , not without the interveniency of their hands in the penning of it or the hands of such as penned it from their mouthes as they spake the truths thereof , who received them from the mouth of God speaking in them . Thus though the first Manuscripts had as immediate a divine original and emanation from God as any outward Writings in the world , yet that they had so immediate an emanation as thou wouldest make them have , as if every Apex thereof is as immediate from God to you as his voyce was from him to the Prophets in whom he spake that ( excepting the little that is above excepted ) is utterly false ; and as for your Transcripts , which thy talk is so transcendent for , though they are immediate to you because they come to you as the first Manuscripts never did , yet they came not immediately from God at all , but from the hands of fallible men , so little guided in their writing from the infallible Spirit , that by thy own confession , they being without that , both might and did fail and mistake therein . And now how little all this first Chapter hath in it where with to make a sound bottom● or firm basis for the bearing up of so great a Babel , as thou buildest on it , viz. Such a Divine Authority of the Scripture , as whereby it claims and challenges the high and glorious Title of the Word of God to it self , and every Tittle of it , under pain and peril of all mens perishing for ever that ownit not , as such , and honor it not , as thou dost , whose grand Idol the meer outward Text is , with that Divine honour that is due to the inward , true , eternal , incorruptible , inalterable , powerful living , life-giving Word of God it self , which it only is but a bare , though true relation of , comes now to be considered . CHAP. III. HAving laid ( thy falsely supposed Divine original , and immediate emananation from God of the letter , as the sole foundation of all that Divine Authority , as the Word of God , thou ascribest to it ; and as thy Basis , as thou sayest , p. 2.24.30 . thou beginnest thy Building in thy second Chapter , and so onward throughout thy book in both Treatises and Theses , laying and thwacking Title upon Title , Land upon Land , Honor upon Honor , Exaltation , on Exaltation Crown upon Crown , on the head of the Copies of the original , or Hebrew and Greek Texts of the Bible , as they are at this day , come down to you from the Generations of old thorough the hands of the sundry successive Transcribers , extolling and magnifying it in such an exceeding high , unlimited , and boundless way of Benediction , till , like one that being busie in beautifying with Gold his carved Image , and blessing his more then ordinarily beloved Idol , forgets that it s but a perishing piece of Wood , or mouldring matter fashioned into that form and fabrick , wherein it appears outwardly and immediately to him , by the handywork of meer erring man , Thou carriest thy Castle into the clouds with aery applauses , till by thy lofty liftings up of the letter , and thy windy , whiffling , to and fro talkings for it , and Weathercockly commendations , and setting up of every Pinnacle , Tittle , Point , Syllable , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , thou hast trimm'd up thy Tower of Babel , with a Top welnigh as high as Heaven , and made no less of it even of the letter and Text of thy meer modern Greek and Hebrew Transcripts of the Scripture then appears by thy own words . J.O. The only and most perfect Rule of . All faith and good manners . The truest and most unerring touchstone for the trial of all truth . The most immoveable , inalterable , certain , stedfast , and stable Standard . The only firm and infallible foundation of all that beleef and obedience that God requires at mens hands . A stedfast Releef against all that confusion , darkness , and uncertainty , which the vanity , fossy , and loosness of the minds of men drawn out by the unspeakable alterations that fall out amongst them , would certainly have run out into , pag. 28. The most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , on which all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded . That which alone gives the determination of Doctrines proposed to be beleeved whether they are truths of God , or cunning●y devised fables . Tr. 1. Cap. 3. Sect. 16. That by which we are commanded to examine and prove , Tanquam ad lydium lapidem , all those things that are to be examined and proved . That which pleads its reception not only in comparison with , but in opposition unto all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of his minde and will founded thereon , p. 58. That which is necessary in such an high degree of necessity in its daily use , not only ad ingenerationem fidei to the begetting of faith , where it is not , b●● & in ea edificationem to the edification of the highest Saints in it while they draw breath here , that there is not more need to us of food and rayment to uphold our very natural life , than there is of the Scriptures that we may be daily instructed in the knowledge and faith of Christ. That which doth not only most exceedingly exceed all others , but as to the saving ends thereof , is the only and singular means that God uses in order to the revealing the knowledge of himself . * The light , the most glorious light in the world , above the Sun , &c. p. 43. The witness of God , the power of God to salvation , ipsa doctrina quam à Deo docemur , yea no lesse than ●he very powerful , living , quickning , soul-saving Word of God. That which challenges to it self that glorious Title of the Word of God , as its own proper name . That which is so tum in esse reali & cognoscibili , i.e. so , and so known evidently by its own light and power so to be . That which manifests and testifies of it self from the beginning to the end of it , p. 140. to be the Word of the living God , yea abundantly & uncontrolably to men . p. 3 That which is often , even welnigh a thousand times mentioned , indigitated , Ex. 1. Sect. 5.32 . by that name the Word of God. That which calls for attendance and submission to it ( as such ) with supream uncontroleable Authority , p. 58. That which is expected from us , and required of us by God himself on penalty of his eternal displeasure if we fail in our duty , 2 Thess. 1.8 , 9 , 10. That we receive it not as we do other books with a firm opinion only but with divine and supernatural faith , omitting all such inductions as serve only to ingenerate a perswasion that it is his Word , p. 31.32.34 . &c. And many more such transcendently glorious Epethites , and Compellations thou denominatest the Scripture by , as that , which , as to the integrity of the Text , is unaltered in every tittle , and also every tittle and iota of which is a part of the Word , yea the Word of the great God , wherein the eternal concernment of souls lyes ; for of the Scripture , or under that terme of Scripture or of the Word , thou restisiest all this , yea and very much more dost thou found out and sing of the Transcripts of the Greek and Hebrew Text to the same tune , which though they are all true of the true Word of God indeed , which is properly so called , and in the Scripture it self , which never , which no where calls it self so , is often and only so stiled , yet being by thee uttered all concerning the Scripture , which is intended by thee , when thou praedicarest any thing of it under that Name or Term of the Word of God , saying , the Word of God is a light , powerful , glorious , above the Sun , &c. as well as when thou speakest of it under its own true and only proper name of Scripture , saying the Scripture is the Rule , the foundation , &c. the Scripture is so or so , it is every whit of it utterly false , as thou utterest it , the falsehood whereof , I shall now come to make some Animadversions of more particularly . And for as much as I own all those high-flown glorious denominations thou runnest out into to be true to a Tittle , if spoken of Gode word indeed , but deny utterly the truth of any one of them , as they are spoken by thee of the Scripture , as the most commodious way that I can take for the disproof of thy untrue talke of the Scriptures , whereby thou ignorantly , not to say Idolatrously attributest such glorious Titles and Epechites thereunto as are the due and only peculiar properties of the true and living Word of God indeed , which is Christ Jesus himself , and also for the vindication of the Word of God from that Robbery and Spoil that is done to it by thee , who pullest it down from the Throne , and statest the meer Texs and Letter of it in its place , and also for the further vindication of the poor deluded , Fanatical Qua. as thou callest them in whom thou foolishly fanciest Satan assaults the Sacred truth of the Word of God in its Authority , purity , integrity , and perf●ction , against whose abominations ( as thou sayest in thy Epistles ) thou subjoyned thy Latine Theses in the close of the other Treatises for the instruction of the younger sort of students , to whom thou dedicatest thy dribling doings ; and for the clearing of the Qua. in their principles from thy shallow rash censure of them as being therein confused opposers of the truth , I shall endeavour to comprize the whole Truth not only about the Word of God , but also about the Scripture of it , as to Name and Thing , most miserably mistaken by thy poor deluded self , in this one general Argument , the minor Proposition whereof being plainly proved to be true in each particular of it ( for the major is not only undeniable , but also undenied , or rather absolutely affirmed by thy self ) the conclusion which is perfectly contradictory to the main matter , and principal Proposi●ion contended for throughout thy Book , viz. That the Scriptures known to be the Word of God and that is the proper name thereof , will necessarily follow ( as true ) to its full and final confutation and overturning . The Argument is on this wise . The Word of God is the most stedfast relief against uncertainty and confusion , the firm foundation , the most perfect Rule of all faith and obedience that God requires at m●ns hands , the most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , and which immediately it is to be grounded upon , the chiefest among all wayes of coming to the knowledge of Gods minde and will , the truest Touchstone , stable Standard , Lydius lapis , that gives determination of Doctrines , by which all is to be examined and proved necessary to beget and increase faith , perfect in its integrals , the most glorious spiritual light in the world , above the Sun , the Witness of God , the very Doctrine of God , the power of God to salvation , the powerful , living , quickning soul-saving Word of God that which challengeth that glorious title to its self as it own proper name , that which evidenceth , manifests and testifies of it self to be the Word of God , and is so stiled welnigh a thousand times in the Scripture , to be received as such on peril of eternal ruine , every tittle of which is the Word of God , the great God , in which the eternal concernment of souls doth lye , and such other things as J.O. denominates the Scripture by . But the Scripture is none of all this , therefore the Scripture is not the Word of God , much less known so to be , nor so properly to be called . That the Scripture is none of all that which thou testifiest above that it is , and which no Qua. do deny the Word of God to be , is the business which now lyes before me to make good , in order whereunto I shall take the several particulars into examination , and make some Animadversion of what thou sayest in proof of those particulars in the Affirmative , affirming , I that not the Scripture , but the light the letter came from is the only most stedfast relief against contentious , confusions , darkness and uncertainties . Thou sayest indeed the Scripture is the stedfast Relief against all that uncertainty , darkness , confusion , &c. That the mindes of men heightned by the unspeakable alterations that are found among them , run out into . But I say ( not blaming the Scripture as the cause of it , which is holy , just , and good , when wise men have the handling of it ) that throw the doting disputers of this world about it , who in their wrangling mindes and restless pens wrest the Writings of it to their own and the worlds ruine , the Scripture , canoniz'd by men as their rule of faith , is become ( as the Gospel of peace is of war to the lewd mindes ) the occasion , or causa sine qua non of all the confusion , darkness , uncertainty , which by the vanity , folly , and loosness of mens mindes , drawn out a whoring after the letttr without , from the light and spirit within , by divine dotages on it , and dim divinations out of it for means , and the unspeakable alterations of it , and endless enmities and hatreds , and envyings one of another about their own sottish senses , and mishapen meanings on it , hath too certainly been heightened , and is already long since run out into . So that as Aristotle and Ramus the two received and respective Standards for the junior Sophisters of our two Nurseries , Oxford , and Cambridge , to fight under in their Logical scoldings ; So the Scripture is made by our senior School-men in their Scholastical Theological S●nffles , a Standard more to squabble about , and fight under , than a Standard to try and determine Truth by ( as they call it ) and is nothing but an ample Armory from which they fetcht most of their furniture where with all in their mad malicious mindes to fence against each other concerning the Scriptures it self , and such plain truths as lye open to all honest capacities therein , and lye hid from none more than these wise and prudent Praters of it , who like the Horses and Riders , Zach. 12.4 . being of the Lord smitten with madness , blindness , and astonishment , run on to battel as Warriours , Isa. 9. with confused noise , till the Nations where they live lye languishing for their wicked wills sakes , with their Garments rolled in blood . Yea the Scripture , as canoniz'd into an Authentick common Standard to themselves , stands but as Truncus locorum , &c. a certain Topick or Common place from whence to scrue Arguments to the assaulting one of another , and from which to fetch fuell to feed the fire of their wrathful , and hellish life of disputing out their giddy guessings to each other , so nauseously , that some Saints have been weary of the world , and wisht to be out of it upon nothing more than a desire to be rid of the angry , direful doings and divisions of the men called Divines ; which Topick of theirs too they chop to pieces and criticize into such crums and bits , the better to beat one another out of , and about it , that as the Oxonians used to say of Ramus , In tot Ramos , Ramulos , & Ramusculos , locorum hunc Truncum , dividit , &c. So I may say of all our admired Erasmus's or ( supposedly ) learned Divines , that either hate or dote on each others Divinity doings ( of the best of whom when all is done as renouned as they seem to themselves , I can say no better yet ( such Dunces are they in the School of Christ ) than I can of Erasmus himself , of whom , as to the things of God , were he now living , it might be said , Mus , at Erasmus eras , Mus , at Erasmus eras ) In quot Puncta , Punctula , & Punctillula , &c. into how many points , punctualities , and punctilioes , do they spring out in their pratings , pratlings , and prittle prattles upon and concerning it , till as Heterogeneous as the Scripture is , in the sense above shewed , in respect of its various matters , they make the bare writing so Homogeneous a thing , that every point , tittle and iota of it must bear not only the true ( for so it may , every point and iota , line , and letter being Scripture , as well as a whole page ) but the very false fictitious name and nature of the whole ; for thus J.O. makes the whole Scripture no more , as well as no less than the Word of God , and no less then so , even then the Word of God ( for had he said each tittle is Scripture , I should have excused him ) doth he aver every tittle and iota of the Scripture to be pag. 168 , 169. pag. 27. Every Apex of the written word i.e. writing with him is equally divine and as immediately from God as the voice wherewith and whereby he spake to , or in the Prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same Authority ( which Authority with him is that of commanding the name of God as his word , pag 34 , 34 , 36. ) in its self , and unto us , who if he can tell me how much sense , or prove to me that there is any sound sense , true Doctrine , comprized , commanded or taught in one tittle or iota , much more that every transcribed tittle and iota of it is ( as he there affirms ) the Word of the great God though I yet say , as he sayes of what he cannot beleeve , credat Apella , yet he however , Erit mihi magus Apollo . Yet for every [ not to say Tittittle ] but Tittle and little 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in it is he so loud that he labours and looks to be heard and heeded as far off as beyond Sea by Capellus and other Divines , against whom he tiresomely talks about trivial matters , not contented with the Truths of Doctrine contained , without every Apex , tittle and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of what ever was in the Text be assured and secured unto him , any of which yet if happily they are lost , as all the individual immediate first Manuscripts are wholly by his own confession , I know no body will spare so much time , or trouble themselves to take so much pains as to look them up for him . Yea oh the infinity of I. O's fightings with his fellow Protestant , as well as Popish Divines , for the foresaid flim flams and forms of outward Scripture in that second Treatise of his , or manifold Tale of a Tub without any bottome , save the sandy ground and fickle foundation of forgeries , fables , humane fallible perswasions , uncertain conjectures , * and on his own side his own thoughts , conjecture , and apprehensions , as his own self therein abundantly confessnes into which , but for service-sake to the truth , and that I may shew the Seers how dim-sighted they are , and the World , what a Wood and Wildernesse of meer imaginations her Leaders are wandering and erring up and down in , it even loaths me to look into it ; and but that I know the end of it be no worse then this , as the Proverb is , That when Thieves fall out among themselves , true men are the likelier to come by their goods again ; it would more troub●e and terrifie me , then it does , to behold , as every one may that reads there , and does not [ to use J. O.'s own phrase in it , p. 275. ] dream pleasantly , while he is awake , how the Divines are divided about the ground they stand on ; like children , crying out , and tearing themselves to pieces about their shreds , and shels , and pins and Points , and counters , & for want of insight into better materials , and into the inside thereof , are twatling away their time to learn in , about the gawdy outside of their Horn-Books and Primers , and brawling about the back side of their Bibles , treating out their thoughts in tittle-tattles to each other about Titles of Books , and T●●●'●● and Iota's , Hebrew Points , Punctations , Accents , Vowels , Dipthongs , ●abbincal , unical , and other sorts of Letters , Pronounciations , Acute , Apert , double and simple sounds , * as Ai , Ay , Pay , Day , How , Now , Rout , Stout , Eat , Meat , Pull , Cut , Boy , Toy , All , Tale , Thy , My , Thine , Thin , Go , To , Vse , Vs Law , Draw , Title , Tittle , and such like tittle-tattles , and simple sounds , as So , No , [ J. O.'s and T. D's . simple sounds throughout their Books ] various Lections , to Kiries , and to Ketibs , Lexicons , Original Copies , Transcriptions , Translations , Oral Traditions , Tomes , Talmuds , Babylonish Targums , Paraphrases , Greek , Syriack , Arabick , Aethiopick , Complutensian Franciscus , Pratensis , and Bombergius his Bibles , Genealogies , Chronologies , Commentaries , Alcorans , Gemaraes , Mishnaes , Massereas , Hammasoreths , Euchiridions , Apologies , Appendices , Prolegomenaes , Biblia Poly Glottaes , Councils , Fathers , Doctors , and modern Authors , Rabbies , School-men , Casuits , Grammarians , Turkish , Iewish , and Heatbenish Writers , Massorites , Cabalists , and other Rabbins , and a huge heap more of such Massie-men , and their voluminous Handy-works , wherewith our men call'd Ministers are ever mudling and hampering themselves and each others minds , and out of which , more then out of the Scriptures themselves , they so scribble , scrabble , and scramble about , and much more then out of the Light and Spirit the Letter sprang from , the vast Body and big bundle of their Atheo-theology is composed ; about which yet , nor yet about the Standard of their own owning , and their fore-fathers authorizing , they can never accord , but are ever snarling and concurring , as dogs , together by the ears among themselves ; and though their thoughts are so various , that theres Quot homines , tot sententiae , as many minds as men ; yet every one is crouding his own erude and self-created , conjectural cogitations , as very Oracle on all the rest , and crying up his own incongruous Conclusions , as cogent and clear , as the clearest demonstrations in the world . And howbeit it befalls me in submission to God's will , who hath laid it on me against my own , to take so much notice of that notable non-such piece of uncertain Discourse of I. O.'s about the various Lections , and pedling Punctations of the Hebrew Text : ( in all which his clack is carried to and fro by perplexing , contradicting conjectures † in the high road of Forgeries and Fables , then which , in nothing [ quoth I.O. p. 264. ] hath the world been more cheated : And round about in the sphere of rational , humane , fallible perswasions , and the sandy-heap of uncertainties , and incertainty it self : p. 181.218.222.227 . ) as to make some Animadversions on some Contradictions and odd Expressions and Absurdities , apparently thick and threefold in it : Yet I take so much heed to my self , as not much to interest my self or any thing of mine , into that inconclusible Controversie , and endlesse Entercourse , which I see I.O. and others are there engaged in , in the looseness of which a man may ( as I. O. does ) sooner loose himself , then find the Truth . And seeing , as thou saist in another case , p. 343. it is to no purpose to go over all such observations as might be made of things that are false , foolish , frivolous , and absurd , that are therein , if any man hath ( as thou saist , and as it seems to me hast ) a mind to be led out of the way , he may do well to attend unto them , I shall no further then to lead men out from attending to the Toyishness of them : Nor shall I bring my self down from that sure Rock on which through mercy I stand , into that deep pit of doubtful disputations , into which such as are fell from God , are fallen , so as irreconcilably to fall out about things so little worth knowing , that they are fit for nothing but to be forgotten ; left passing by , and intermedling in a strife that directly concerns me not , I not onely take a dog by the ears , but raise also a Nest of Wasps , or whole Hive of Hornets about my own , who are striving to sting one another with what strength they can about stuff , which ( on which side foe're the truth lyes ) is no more worth such a stirre and strife as they make for it , then a very straw : And since I see all the Builders that reject the Corner-stone , are found in broiles and brabbles , not onely about their several Superstructions and Fabricks built thereon , but also their several Foundations ; and even the very Protestant Divines ( whose is the better of the two , so long as the Papists have but Traditions ) at oddes within themse'ves about their own , which being but the bare Letter , is but brittle ; some with I.O. stickling , to little purpose , to prove it firm and uncorrupted , whilst others with far more evidence to evince it to be decrepid : I am minded to stand off from that Battel about the Points , as to any earnest Interposition , and deeper engagement therein , then is above , and become a looker on , and leave the Clergy , that are loud and clamorous , and full of noiles , to claw one another with their wonted Clubs , and bang one another with their Branglings and vain janglings about Boy-Toy , & the Antiquity or Novelty of Hebrew Points : And seeing they are hard at work in the Night , and wrestling in Chaines of Darknesse like the foolish woman , to pull down their own house with their own hands , and to find out , and fling about , that all may see it , the sandiness , and crack's , falsities , and fallibilittes , and flaws that are in their own crazie Corner-stone , and faultring Foundation , and to crush down their own Chaos they have rear'd thereupon , with the curiosity of their own Criticisms , and burn up their Babels with the confus'd fire of their angry quarrellings and contentions ; I rejoice more to see the Truth go on , then sorrow to see their Trash come down thereby , hoping that when they have laboured long enough in the fire of their own fury , and find they have wearyed themselves for very vanity , and see the Earth fill'd from the Lord 's own teachings , without theirs , with the knowledge of his glory from one end to another , as the Waters cover the Sea ; and that when they begin to feele their old Heavens wax hot , and be on fire o're their heads , and their worldly Elements , and Earthly Rudiments to melt away with fervent heat , and the ragged Rocks they have carved out to themselves in their own conceits to rest upon , to r●ad in pieces , and their Root to shew it self to themselves ( as it 's seen by others ) to be rottenness , and their Blossom to go up as the dust , and their boggy Foundation to shake , and the ground they go upon , to open & crack , & cleave a sunder under their feet , and themselves to cry out [ as I. O begins to do already ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sh●w me where I shall stand : And that when they feel themseves sinking and going down alive with the uncircumcised into the pit , they will then learn that from themselves , which being wiser in their own eyes then the men , that can render a reason , they would never learn from others , ' viz. That were they as truly built on the Letter of Scripture ( as they deem themselves to be , and it 's most sure to some , and infallibly true they are all beside it ) yet being not on the Light , they are no better bottom'd then on the Sand ; trusting also , as I said above , that when the holy Thieves that steal the word they speake from one another , to make a trade on , and the Scribes have done Scolding and Scuffling together about the Scriptures , then there wil be a restitution to every thing , that hath been robb'd thereof , of its own proper Name , viz. Of the Rule , to the Rule , of the Foundation to the Foundation , of the Light to the Light , of the Witnesse of God , to the Witnesse of God , of the living Word , to the living Word of God : and of the bare Writing , Text , or Letter , to the Letter , and no more , which in truth is no more then plainly so . So then as positive as thou art in it I.O. that the outward Writing , the close of the Canon of which , as to any more immediate Revelation of his Will , was immediately given out from God to us as a continent of the whole of his mind and will , as a merciful and stedfast relief against all confusion , darkness , uncertainty , loosenesse of mens minds , &c. ( ut supra ) and ( as it were ) a certain Standard to hush all Controversies : Yet I who affirm the inward Light , VVord , and Spirit of God in the heart so to be , do deny that the whole Scripture , ( how immediately soever it had its being and beginning of God , and however some little of it was , Act. 15. ) was ever designed by him to such an end as the ending of strifes and contention , or determining of all doubts and questions , and disputings about his mind and will among men ; or that it ever prov'd succesful or effectual to such an end , or else ut frustrâ est ista potentia quae ne unquaem reducitur in actum , sic frustra istud medium quod nunquam obtinere potest suum finem . As that 's a vain Power which never produces its effect , so that 's a vain Means ( and therefore not so intended of God , who appoints no means utterly in vain ) which never can obtaine its own end . Nay verily , though miserable man for his own ends cryes it up into that supremacy , sets it up as the Ensign to the Nations , in which he would have them put their trust , that it will end and amend all matters that are out of tune in the world about truth , and is a stedfast relief against all that fighting Andabatarum mors , in their dark mindes , that is , among the Clergy of all kinds and colours , Papists , Prelates , Presbyters , who all three like Ammon , Moab , and Mount Seir , ( making one head against the people of God ) do yet destroy each other , and non secus as Sampsonis vulpeculae , &c. like Sampson's Fire-brand-tayl'd Foxes , burn up the Churches true Bread-Corn , as if such were the plenitudo Scripturarum , the sufficiency , power , and perfect efficacy of the Scripture , that if men will come all to a tryal of Doctrines , Faiths , Spirits , and all by that , tanquam ad Lydium lapidem Then all differences and dissentions in Religion , of whatsoever sorts , must cease ; and all the most detestable errors , which flying the Scripture , men are divided into , must extempore vanish upon their looking there ; * yet ( till men come to turn to the Light and Word within , which is the Power of God the Scriptures tells of , which who erres from , and are ignorant of , as the Schollars and Scribes are more then any , do erre , not knowing the Scripture they scribble on , any more then it ) the Letter is too weak an Engine to set to rights what 's what 's out of order ; and a Standard , which men that lean to it , as to that intent , find to be but a broken staff , that not onely fails their expectation of support from it , but also wounds them more , and runs into their hands ; Witnesse the wosul work that the Worlds Ministers make in it , for all their Scripture , who for and about the Scripture , and their sundry silly senses about it self , and meanings made of the holy matter that 's plainly made out in it , make more havock of whole Nations by stirring them up to war about the Scripture , in their wild wisdom , & wicked wils , then ever could have been in Christendom , if the Scripture had never been among them at all : What wasting , devastations , and calamity hath been in Germany , not onely betwixt Protestants and Papists , but also by Protestants , i.e. Lutherans and Calvinists within themselves , and wherefore , but for their divided thoughts upon some few Texts of Scripture ? And what Errors , Heresies , straglings from the Truth , which is but one , and from the true Light the Scripture calls to ? Did ever any sorts of erring men ( among whom the Clergy that commonly cryed Whore first , have been the chief ) run out into error in the Christian world , who have not pretended at least to own , and to be willing to be tryed also by the Scripture ? Yea the Papists for all their infallible Chair , will , and do ever , when they plead it against Protestants , professe pretensively to prove it by the Scripture , having a sense for every place to serve their own turns , as the Protestant Clergy to serve their turns have another . And howbeit it hath been thought in the Protestant part of Europe , that all would be unity it self among them , ( and so 't is as to make one against the Pope since men fell from that infinity of imagination and invention , which was , and was capable to be eternally fed with the endless fuel , which the unerring Breast , and boundless treasure of tradition could easily finde for it , and betook themselves more singly to the Scriptures , marching from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the Originals , ( as thou speakest p. 207 ) of the Scritures ; yet what multiplication of divisions ( for want of coming to the light , which is but one in all , and in which alone all true unity is had and held with God , and one another , 1 Ioh. 1.5 , 6 , 7 , 8. ) rather then any diminution thereof , hath fell out in your Reformed Churches , as ye call them , 〈◊〉 all the Scriptures being so all in all among them , so that like the Serpent Hydraus hundred Heads , whereof when Hercules cut off one , two grew up after it in the place , as soon as one controversie among the Reform'd Clergy was hoped to be ended , though I know none was ever truly ended , yet by all the Synodical designs that ever were on foot in this Nation , or any other , so that we may truly say of every Synod of Divines that hath yet fate , Quis Synodus ? Nodus , Patrum Chorus , Integer , Aeger , Conventus , Ventus , Sessio , Stramen , Amen ] Many new ones began , that like new fresh Hares starting upon tired Hounds , that have been hot in the old sent , have run them all out of breath ; or if any evil of division in one thing hath been put to an end , it hath been but a preparative to a greater breach among the Protestant Clergy , and all their creatures , and still Finis alterius Mali gradus est Futuri : Yea , I may say of thy Scriptures , as thou pleads for them J.O. to end all strife withall , as I may say of our English Oaths impos'd upon poor persons , to the impeaching themselves , when they come before our crooked Courts in Case of Tythes , viz. that the Oaths given on pretence of ending all strife , are in truth given by the Judges to begin all strife with ; For if an honest man will not swear how many Eggs , and Pigs , and Pears , and Plumbs , &c. he hath had for so many years past , they will not permit him to plead at all , or strive in his own defence against his Persecutor . In like manner it is with that which thou exhibit'st to men in order to the ending all Divisions and Disputes , viz. the meer looking [ beside the Light within ] into the Letter of the Scriptures , which is so far from finishing any strife , that it feeds vain , foolish , loose mindes , such as thine that hates the light , none else , with fuel , and furnishes their fancies with matter for many more strifes , then they would find cause for , if they kept to the Light within alone for their learning , or at least so as in that alone to look into the Letter , where such as learn at the Light , may read their own . Yea , dark minds diving into the Scripture , divine lyes enough out of it to set whole Countreys on fire , as the Divines have ever done . And as to the purity of the Originals , under the Conduct of which thou saist ye went from Rome , wishing none may return thither under pretence of their corruption . I say , the purity of them , which thou pleadest in that height thou dost , is but pretended , and that more or less corrupted they are , to the contradicting thy self , thy self art forced to confess , p. 167. as is shewed above , but be they as they are , or how they will be , pure or not pure to a tittle , as thou assertest them , they are so far from relieving you in your wearisom , wrathful strifes , that cum nemini obtrudi potest itur ad me , may your Original Text say , when the Divines can have leisure to cease a little from their strife about the holy matter and Doctrine of it , then rather then sit still , and be quiet or be idle from their common Calling , which is contention , they 'l role Sysiphus his stone , and be at wars , and tear one another about the very Letter , and their Original Transcripts of it , and try that out tooth and nail , whether they be true or no , in every Letter , Tittle , Point , and Iota , as they were written as the first . Yea , O curas hominum ! though for truth , and wisdom , and the Scriptures sake , which I own , and honour as holy , just , and good , and of precious use to such as know and obey the truth , I am become such a fool with them , by answering them according to their folly , as to make this one Ski●mish among them about the Scripture , that I may bring some of them to the truth and light of God in them , in which only the union is , that they may cease henceforth from their & stirs strifes , which light til they turn to , I testifie to them that their way is as slippery places in the dark , in which they will be driven on till they fall therein , that their feet are swift to shed blood , that wasting and misery are in their wayes , and the way to true peace they know not , yet this one thing I must say too , and of our Vniversity Scriblers , pro Scripturis , that as there are no men in the world more up to the ears in strife about the Scripture , and their own Fancies on it as to matter and letter , than the Scribes are , so there is no one thing that the Scribes are striving , scuffling and scolding at each other more about , than about their Scriptures . That light or word within , and not the letter is the Foundation . First , I shall take account of what thou falsely assertest concerning the Scriptures being a Foundation . Thou affirmest the Scriptures to be the Foundation of the Prophets and Apostles spoken of Eph. 2.20 . pag 33. saying of them that men may quietly repose their souls upon them in beleeving and obedience , and of your selves thus are we built , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. on the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , and calling them . Page 48. The Foundation of that world which he hath set up in this world as a Wheel * within a Wheel his Church . And page 154. The Foundation of faith , hope , and obedience . And page 155. The Foundation of all that faith , and obedience which he requires at our hands . And page 316. The great and blessed Foundation of Truth . All this I own to be very true of the Word of God of which the Scripture speaks , but it is utterly false as uttered by thee of the Scriptures . The falsehood of which appears plainly by this Argument . 1. Argument , That which is the great and blessed Foundation of all that truth , faith , hope and obedience that God requires at mens hands , and of the Church and of the Apostles and Prophets must be something , which was in being before any of these things were , for the Foundation on which these are built must have a being before they can be built thereupon , every Foundation being before the building can stand upon it . But ( though the Word of God be so , yet ) the Scripture is not before , but long after that truth , faith , hope and obedience , which God requires at mens hands , and long after the Church , and long after the Apostles and Prophets were , yea after those Apostles and Prophets were Respectively , who were the Respective pen-men thereof . Therefore the Scripture , the Writing , the Letter , the Greek and Hebrew Text is not the Foundation of any of these things . The first Proposition is so true that it were no less then disparagement to I. O's wisdom , & to suppose him to be mentis inops to go about to prove it to him , sith as he builds Castles in the air , as easily thrown down , as erected , upon no better Foundation , then his own fancy , thoughts , conjectures , and imaginations , yet he cannot be so senceless as to think , that that Foundation , be it what it will , firm or brittle , on which any thing is built , must be before the building can stand thereon . And as for the minor in every part thereof it 's as undeniably true to any , save such as having once turn'd their backs upon the Truth , are resolved to render themselves devoid of eithet Sense or Reason in their Reasonings against it , then to own it . For none else can deny but the Church , and the Truth , Faith , Hope , and Obedience of it , and the Messengers , Apostles , Prophets , Preachers of Righteousnesse , such as were Enoch , Noah , Abraham , Lot , and others , were in the Truth , Faith , Hope , Obedience of the Gospel , and also built upon Christ the Light , the Word of God , the Rock of Ages , before Moses dayes , who is unversally supposed , at our Vniversities , to have been the first Pen-man of the Scriptures . The grand Master-place of Scripture that is us'd in proof hereof , that the Scriptures are the Foundation , is Ephes. 2.20 . where it 's said by Paul to the Ephesians , Ye are built on the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Iesus Christ himself being the chief Corner-Stone . Hence it is strenuously stickled for , and as confidently , as cloudily concluded by our doting Doctors , and dreaming Divines , that the Church of God , as to all her Faith , Hope , Obedience , Knowledge of the Truth , is built upon the Apostles and Prophets Writings as that which is there called the Foundaeion ; whereas were they but at leisure from that lesser and lower literature , wherein they are lost from the Lord , and the Light and Life of God , and the Letter also , which issued forth from thence , to look into the Light , and by it into the Letter it self , they more blindly labour for , then truly learn by , they would soon see that the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets there spoken of , is not the Apostles and Prophets themselves , much less uncertain transcribed Copies of those few Fragments of their Letters , and some other honest mens true stories of what was done in their times , good instructions , memorandums , and litteral recommendations of wholsome Laws and Statutes , most of which as laid down in the Letter , [ saving that they remain in the truth and substance , whereof they were the types , figures and shadows ] are above 1600-years since cancelled and abolished , Promises , Prophesies , Psalms , Proverbs , Parables , occasional Letters , Epistles , and other Writings , which such as fell into a foolish following , and falling down before outward Images , and from the infallible Spirit it self , that their Scriptures were written to keepe men to , found and fardelled together , and fram'd in their own fancies into a Foundation of the Faith , and of all the whole Fabrick of Religion to be for ever framed and founded upon ; But Christ Iesus himself , who is there also called the chief Corner-stone , and 1 Pet. 2.4 . that living Stone , disallowed indeed of men , but chosen of God , and precious , on whom the Saints , even all together with the Apostles and Prophets , and the whole Houshold of God , as Fellow-Citizens , and lively Stones , are built up a spiritual House , to offer spiritual sacrifices yea all into one holy Temple or Habitation of God through the spirit : This is the true and sole Foundation of all the matters before mentioned , Christ Iesus the Rock of Ages , on whom whoever believes , shall not be ashamed : Christ the living Word of God , that also quickneth , whose words are spirit and life to the hearers of his voice , whose words , uttered in the heart , do good to those that walk uprightly ; this is the Stone that you Babel-builders refuse , which God hath made the very head stone in the Corner , Psal. 118.22 . Matt 21.42 . This verbum lumen internum , Christ the eternal , internal Word in the heart , and Light of the World , given a Light to the Nations , and [ as such ] Gods salvation to the ends of the earth , and the precious sanctuary to such as believe in his light , is that stone of stumbling , and Rock of offence to such as thee I.O. that stumble at the Word in their wrestlings for the Letter , being disobedient unto both , whereunto also they are appointed , and a Gin and a Snare to the Inhabitants of that earthly Jerusalem which is from beneath , the fleshly Church of Jews and Christians , according to the meer Letter , which is in bondage with her children , Isa. 8.14 . 28.16 . 1 Pet. 2. And that it is Christ Iesus alone , and not the Scriptures that is there call'd the Foundation , is most evident , not onely from the Text it self , wherein Jesus Christ himself is instanced in , as such [ for the same that is call'd the Foundation , is there also call'd the Corner-stone ] but also from other Scriptures , whereby the truth hereof is yet more illustrated , viz. Isa. 28.18 . where speaking both in the foregoing and following Verses , of the false Foundations , short beds , narrow coverings , and lying refuges , that the Drunkards of Ephraim , that erred from the simple plain truth , thorow the Wine of their own Wisdom , and were out of the way , and stumbled in Wisdom and Iudgement , thorow the strong Drink of their own devised Doctrines , so that they could not discern nor learn the Lords Doctrine that was divined to them thorow the stammering lips of such as ministred Precept upon Precept , Line upon Line , here a little , and there a little , among them ; he summons all to fix their Faith on the one onely true and firm Foundation , saying , Behold ! I lay in Sion for a Foundation , a Stone , a tryed Stone , a precious Corner-stone , a sure Foundation , he that believeth shall not make haste : Where it 's very observable , as it is in Eph. 2.20 . That the self-same that is called the Corner-stone , is also ca'led the sure Foundation . Likewise 1 Cor 11. where it's expresly said , That other Foundation can no man lay then that is laid , which is JESUS CHRIST . Now if no man can lay any other Foundation of the Church , which is God's Building , then Christ , whom the Apostle sayes , ver . 10. He himself laid , as a wise Master-Builder , according to the Grace of God given unto him , Then all things else besides Christ the Word of God , the Light of the World , and that measure of Light that shines from him , which is not divided from him , any more then that of the Sun from it , but one with him ; whatsoever men go about to lay as the Foundation of the Church , and her Faith , Hope , and Obedience , are not truly , really , and properly so , but imaginarily , supposively fictitiously so , and but falsly so called , meerly seigned , found out , and founded onely in the Fancies of foolish , blind Babel-builders , which Founders and their fictitious Foundations , must be confounded : For the layers of a false Foundation ( and such are all they , that with I.O. lay the Letter , or Traditions with the Papists and Iesuits he justles with , or any other then Christ the Light ) must come to confusion , as wel as the meer Formalists & their Wood , Hey , Stubble , Trash , Imitations , empty forms , and such like Superstitions , and all sorts of Superstructions of the Babilonish Builders upon the true : Whereupon , as much as J.O. blesses himself in his holding the Foundation , and feeds himself with hopes of salvation , so long as he is found holding that , though he build Hay and Stubble upon it , and his Works come to be consumed , saying , p. 160. It will be well for us if we be found holding the Foundation , if we build hay and stubble upon it , though our Work perish , we shall be saved . Yet alas , poor deluded man , J.O. thou mistakest thy self exceedingly ; it would be well for thee indeed if thou held'st the Foundation , Christ , the Head , the Light of men , thy person might then be saved , though thy Work of wood , hay , stubble , will assuredly perish in the fire : But thou art far from being found holding that Foundation , then which there is no other ; and found laying another , even thy uncertain Transcripts of the Greek and Hebrew Texts , and an outward fallible Letter , and its Points , and Syllables , and Tittles , and Iota's , one jot or tittle of which if it fail , thou confessest all thy Faith , and Fabrick of Religion , falls to the ground ; confessing also that 't was not impossible for the chiefest Transcribers thereof to mistake in any thing ; yea , that they did fail in their Work ; so rasing thy false , feigned , and fallible Foundation to the ground , and pulling down thy House with thy own hands , like the foolish woman : And as for the true Foundation , Christ the Light and Spirit , which are infallible , stable , firm , fixt , sure and certain , as every true laid Foundation ought to be , and is , though thy flexible Letter is not so , which is of it self an Argument of its not being the Churches Foundation of Faith and Obedience , This true one , I say , is by thee trampled on , and flouted at , under the Names of , Nescio quod Lumen , quem Deum , seu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deo quopiam melius , merae Tenebrae , aecitas , fines salutares quod attines , non sufficiens ad salutem , Christus Fanaticorum imaginarius & fictitius , qualitas nescio quae divina seu anima Mundi , omnibus misia quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sit i.e. vere nihil , Ex. 4. S. 15.17.21 . Doctorem infallibilem nihil habens commune , cum Scripturis , Ex. 3. S. 22. I know not what Light , what God , or cornucopia , better then any God , infallible Doctor , inconsonant utterly with the Scripture , imaginary Christ of the Qua. I know not what Divine Quality or Soul of the World , made up of all things , that is all things , and truly nothing . Moreover , if none can lay other Foundation then Christ , then Paul himself by these words , Ephes. 2.20 . Ye are built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , cannot rationally be concluded ( as he is both senselesly and reasonlesly conceived by I.O. ) to intend any other Foundation , then Christ himself ; neither can he be understood by any that have common understanding , to intend himself and other Prophets and Apostles , or his own , and their meer outward Writings , for then there are two , whereof they must have one Foundation of Faith and Obedience , and we another ; they Christ the Light , and we them and their Letter ; which is an absurdity utterly unbecoming men call'd Christs Ministers to imagine , seeing the Foundation ( quicquid id est ) of the Church , and her faith , hope and obedience from the beginning of the world to this day , is but one and not many ; yea , as the Faith is one , and the Baptism one , and the Temple and building one , and the Body one , and the Spirit one , and the Lord , and God , and Father of all saints is one , so the Foundation is but one , what ever it is , Eph. 4 , 5 , 6. Or else secondly , if there be but one foundation for us and them to stand upon , and that be the Apostles and Prophets themselves , or thei Writings , then Incidit in Scyllam , &c. the Apostles and Prophets must be supposed to be built not upon Christ , but upon themselves , & their own Writings as to their faith , and saving knowledge of the truth , or at least on the Writings one of another , which is an Imagination as ( if not more ) absolutely absurd than the former , yet of the two , I.O. having his liberty to make his choice , ex dieabus malis , of those two evils seems to chuse the latter , saying , pag. 7. that as far as their personal concernments as Saints and beleevers lay in the Scriptures , and in order to their saving knowledge of the truth , they studied the Writings and Prophesies of one another . I conclude then against I.O. that by that clause , the Foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , is not intended their Writings , as if they laid their own Scriptures for the Foundation of the Church , and her faith , hope , obedience , but that which the Apostles themselves were built upon together with the whole Church or houshold of God , which could not be , nor was their own Writings but Christ the Light The Letter indeed is the foundation laid by I.O. and men of his mould of old , for his Wheel in a Wheel , as he speaks , or his false Church , whose works like his own run round on , and are found to have in them Wheel within Wheel ; but as for the true Church of the living God , which is the Wheel , that will turn the worlds Wheels upside down , it never did , doth , nor ever will acknowledge any fallible letter , or meer transcribed Text , or any other thing to be the true , great and blessed foundation of Truth , Faith , Hope , or Obedience , then Christ Iesus , the same yesterday , and to day , and for ever ; who was before it , now is , and ever will be , when the letter shall be no more at all . 2. Argument whatsoever the Scripture it self layes down and testifies to be the only true Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , and of the whole Church of God , and of her Faith , Hope , and Obedience , and of all Truth , that is the only true foundation of all these things . But the Scripture it self layes down and testifies Christ alone the Light , the living Word , and not it self to be the only true Foundation of the things aforesaid ; therefore Christ alone the Light , Spirit , and inward living Word , that is nigh in the heart , and not the Scripture it self is the only true Foundation of them . The first and affirmative part of the minor is not denied by thee [ as the major cannot be ] and if thou deny the second part of the minor which is negative , and denies the Scripture to testifie of it self in any place that its the Foundation , then assign where the Scripture calls it self the Foundation , or else own that it doth not , and so that it is not the Foundation at all , much less the truest , or the only one , as thou often intimatest , either expresly , or in terms equivalent , it is [ Ep. p. 25 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not any means of standing out of utter uncertainty about all sacred truth if the Heb punctation be invention ; also , p. 64 , 65. not a truer Foundation for for faith to repose it self upon . ] 3. Argument , if the Scripture be the foundation for the Church , and all her Faith and Repentance to be founded and grounded upon , then either there was no Foundation for it before the Scripture , or else they who lived before the Scripture had one Foundation for their faith , and we another , and so consequently there hath been two Foundations for the one faith , or the one Church or body of Christ , but there was a Foundation before the Scripture , and there are not two Foundations of faith , one to that part of the body of Christ , and of Gods building , that was before the Scripture , and another for that part that is built since the Scripture , therefore the Scripture is not the Foundation . Argument 4. The Foundation of the faith must be something that is infallible , firm , fixt , certain , stable , sure , and inalterable , as the light Spirit and Word within onely is , and Gods Foundation , 2 Tim. 2 19. the Foundation of God sure to a Tittle for Error minimus in principio , for major in medio maximus in fine , the least fault or errour , and deviation in the principle , or Foundation of any building grows greater toward the middle , and is greatest at the top , as it is seen in a very Tower if the bottome or basis stands never so little awry as is discernable , it is discerned more in the middle and much more still as it ascends higher . But the Scripture , letter , Hebrew , and Greek Texts ( how ever I.O. pleads their integrity in every Apex , point , tittle and iota ) yet are [ as I have shewed above more at large in answer to his long Tattle about the Tittles and points and indentity of Lections of the letter ] by his own confession mistaken and mistranscribed in small things , yea and in some matters of more moment and importance in the best transcribed Copies of the Original Text , therefore the Text or letter of the Scripture cannot be a fit Foundation for the Churches faith , but the spirit and Word within is onely so . Psal. 75.3 . The earth , and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved faith Christ , the Word of God , I bear up the Pillars of it , and that is the reason why the earth is so shaken as it is , and reels to and fro , that it is removed as a cottage , and all helpers and healers avail nothing , because they reject the corner stone , Christ the Word , for if the Foundations be destroyed , what can the righteous do ? Psal. 11.3 . Isa. 24. 18 , 19. Each of which Arguments hold good against the letters being the Rule , the light , the witness of God , the Gospel , the power of God to salvation , the only means or way of coming to the saving knowledge of God , Word of God , and what ever other high Titles I. O. intitles it by , as appears in their order . That the Light or Word within , and not the Scriptures , are the Rule or Canon . Another thing thou assertest of the Scripture is , that it is the only Rule of the faith and obedience of Gods Church , p. 173. that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that more sure word of Prophesie to be attended to , 2 Pet. 1.18 , 19 , 20. not in its self ( for so it was as sure as sure could be ) but in its giving out its evidence to us then that great miracle of miracles , greater than which the Apostles of Christ never did behold or hear , viz. That voice which came from the most excellent glory , This is my beloved Son , which we have greater security from , and by ( according to Peter ) then they had in , and by that miraculous voice . That Moses and the Prophets , which who so will not hear , will not be perswaded to repent , though one arise to them from the dead , Luke 16.31 . That Word , Law , and Testimony mentioned , Isa. 8.20 . according to which who speaks not are said to be in the dark so that there is no light in them , by which what every one sayes , be it what or whom it will , Church , or person , if it be in , and about the things of God , concerning his will or worship , or our obedience to him is to be tried . That which we are sent to that which is , and is asserted to be the Rule and standard , the touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , that that must speak alone for its self , which must try the speaking of all , but its self , yea it s own also . See Tr. 1. c. 3 pertotum . That which is the ordinary , unmoveable , perfect and siable infallible Rule of Gods worship , and our obedience so that ther 's no further need we should be instructed with any other new , daily Revelations in the knowledge of God , and our duties . Yea the most perfect Rule that is given us of God , whereby to attain to eternal salvation , so that after the compleating of that which is called the Canon of the Scripure ye beleeve and profess no new Revelations about the common faith of the Saints , or the worship of God are either to be expected or admitted as well such as are made * by the Spirit or light within , or inward speculation , or heavenly inspiration or speech of Angèls to our instruction in the knowledge of God , and our duty in order to our obtaining eternal salvation , which all are a vain , unprofitable , false , uncertain , hazardous , and utterly , unnecessary means which the Fanaticks fain toward the knowledge of God and his will. Yea that by which we are commanded to try and examine and prove all Revelations , Visi●ns , Spirits , ( God's no more excepted then the Devil's ) Dreams , inward appearances , or speaking , or prophesyings , within , or from within , whether true or false , without difference or distinction , 1 Cor. 14.21 . 1 Thes. 5.21 . 1 Joh. 4.1 . Ex. 3. S 33. The onely Rule of the faith and obedience of Gods Church . Page 173. so Ex. 4. sect . 22. Rep. In the handling of this head concerning the Scriptures being in the nature of the Canon , Rule , or Standard to the Church of God , I say , in the nature , use and office of a Canon ( for as to the measure or bounds of your Canon , I have elsewhere spoken to it I shall have to do with thee I. O. and thee T. D. also , who both are as like one another in your ignorant invectives against the Qua. as enemies to the Scripture , for not owning it to be what your fore-fathers , and your selves have also ignorantly Canonized it into the name of viz. The standing Rule of faith and life , as if one of you had been spit out of the others mouth . As for thy self I.O. having Ex. 3 sect . 25 , 26. professed thy faith , or rather fancy and opinion , that the Scripture is the only most perfect Rule of the faith , and worship of God , thou stilest thy Teeological subsequent foolish defence thereof , a proving of it against 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the haters of the Scriptures , as if all they that side not with thy false , weak , supportless suppositions about the Scriptures , were presently to be condemned as enemies to them without any more ado . And as for thee T.D. thou stilest it a spitting out of vemome , and bringing in of another Gospel , to deny the Scripture to be the Rule : Thou engagest me in a publick discourse about this Question , Whether the Scriptures are the Word of God or no ? and then when I owning the Word of God to be the Word of God , publickly denied the Scripture that is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Writing ( not mentioning the paper or inke , that is the foolish phrase of thy own inserting , to be the Word of God , in a shameful way of Tergiversation , thou ran'st away from the Termes of thy Question , and never camest near them any more , but leftest quite another Question in its room , viz. Whether the matter contained in the Writings , be the Rule of faith and life ( as the Reader may see in the 25 , and 26. pages of thy first Pamphlet ) Sir , You cannot beleeve us so simple , surely , as to affirm the Scriptures in that sense the Word of God , but we mean the matter contained in the Writing , whether that be the Rule of faith and life ? Which matter written of , and the Writing or Scripture are two different matters ( say I still ) as the Lanthorn and the Candle , or the light contained therein , so that thy doings T.D. that day was altogether as silly a peece of business , as if one that had challenged another to dispute it openly with him , that the Lanthorn is the Candle or the Light being come as T.D. did , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with much pompous shew or fancy upon the publick place of hearing before hundreds to that purpose , should say to his Antagonist on this wise , Sir , You cannot beleeve me to be so simple , surely , as to affirm the Lanthorn to be the candle or light , but I mean the candle or light contained in the Lanthorn , whether that be a Rule for men to walk by in a dark night or no ? a Question which was never denied by his Antagonist at all ; for neither I , nor any Qua. that I know , deny the Word of God to be the Word of God , which is contained in the Scripture , or that the Scripture or Writing declares thereof , any more then we deny the Candle and Light to be a Candle and a Light , which is contained in the Lanthorn ; but that the Writing it self is that Word of God written of in it , or that the Lanthorn is the ' candle or the light , ' that is in the Lanthorn , at least that the Word of God is the proper name of the Scripture ( as to his shame , I. O. hath undertaken to prove in Latine against the Qua. of whom he saith they understand him not in that tongue ) this I , and the Qua. do deny against him and thee , and all men , for our denial of which dream of our benighted Doctors and Divinet , we have been yet damned down through the false suggestions , and silly insinuations of their busie ear-wigs the Priests by all Parliaments and Powers that have yet appeared at the Helm in this Nation , and deemed unmeet to be let into the lists of that liberty of conscience allowed to other men , and doomed out as deniers of the fundamentals of Religion . Thus T.D. [ As the King of Spain and forty thousand men , Went up a hill , and then came down agen . ] Gathered his Forces and Fellow-souldiers together , pitching his own day of battel ; betokening to obtain some eminent victory over the Qua. and as soon as he came into the field laid down his Arms , and confessed he had no quarrel against the Qua. as to the Question he was to dispute about , as stated and held by them ; so like some Bettle he flyes aloft with a humming noise into the ayr , and at last flaps suddenly down into a peece of Cow-dung . Nevertheless T.D. that thou mightest for very shame seem to do something for the Scripture , even for the Book it self , and Letter of it , as well as for the good matter therein contained , sith thou wast come upon the stage on that account , after some parley that was held a while between my self and thee about the Latitude and Limits of your supposed Rule in which thy pitiful poor put offs of the proofs by me urged against thee , are elsewhere discovered ; thou rouzest up thy self into a new proposal of thy Question in these Terms , p. 28. viz. Whether the Hooks commonly called the Old and New Testament , were appointed by God for a standing Rule of faith and life , which I denying the Books to be , thou repliest on this wise , viz Now you have spit out your venome , which I knew you were big with , and I will say to you ( as the Apostle ) if any man bring any other Gospel then what we have received , let him be accursed : To which when I replied , I am sure the Gospel you preach will never bring men to heaven . Thou relatest thy self replying thus , viz. Then friends you hear his acknowledgement , and how well he deserves the curse denounced against him . By all which passages the Reade may observe these things , 1. That thou judgest the Scriptures to be not only the standing Rule of faith and life , but also to be the Gospel . 2. That there is no other Gospel designed by God as the standing Rules , then the Scriptures . 3. That he that owns any thing else besides the Scriptures to be the Rule or the Gospel , and he that denies the Gospel , the Ministers of the letter preach , which is but the Letter , and the Scripture , to be unable to bring men to heaven [ though I intended by those words , viz. the Gospel you preach , the false Doctrine , and unholy matter ye hold forth when ye deny the Light , and plead a necessity of sinning in this life , and hold men to be justified and guiltless , while under the guilt of Murder and Adultery , and damn it as a Doctrine of Devils , to affirm any perfect purging from sin in this world , and such like , and not the Scriptures , which ye are far enough from preaching truly the very letter of ] is big with , and spits out venome against the Scriptures , and brings another Gospel , then that ye have received , and to be held accursed , and well deserves the curse denounced against him by the Apostle , Gal. 1.8 . And in all these matters thou art coincident with I.O. who [ in substance ] asserts with thee the very same , alluding to the self-same place , Gal. 1. in proof of the Scriptures to be the Gospel , and the only perfect rule of faith and worship , Ex. 3. s. 26. Rep. But alas poor , simple , silly , unlearned and ignorant men , ye may curse them that bring another Gospel , then that ye have received indeed , who never at all yet received the true Gospel , which the Galatians received from Paul , who was not a Minister of the Letter , to shew which is all your Gospel , but of the spirit , and of the light which only , while the dead letter , cannot do it , saves , and brings to heaven , and gives the Life , which Light and spirit is the old Gospel which we bring and minister to men , while you , for your meer Letters sake , alter and despise it ; I say ye may curse in Pauls words , but Pauls Curse will come upon you , which being causelesly denounced against us by you , cannot come on us . Now before I come to urge any new Arguments against the Scripture or Letters being in the Authority of the only standing Rule , as both T.D. p. 16. of his second Toy , and I.O. p. 18. assert it to be , concluding that there is no other Rule or measure of judging and determining any thing about the saving Doctrine of the Gospel but the Writing , the Scriptures I shall take some account of some of T. D's . and I. O's . weak rushy kinde of reasonings , by way of Answer to such Arguments as are urged by us against their reasonless suppositions in that behalf . Beginning first with T. D's Jejune Replies to what Reasons were rendred by us to him against his Dream , that there is no other standing Rule of faith and life but the Scriptures , and so proceeding to an Examination of his , and I. O's . excentrick exhibitions of the Scriptures being the only Rule thereof interchangeably as I see occasion . The first Argument urged against thee T.D. at the third Publick Dispute ( as thy self relatest it in p. 28 , 29. of thy first Pamphlet ) to prove the Scripture not the only Rule of faith and life was this . Arg. 1. If there be another standing Rule then the Scripture is not it . But there is another standing Rule , therefore the Scripture is not it . The minor thou deniest , and sayest expresly that there is no other standing Rule , but the Scripture , which minor my proof of which thou rendrest as weakly as well as thou canst , I proved in these very terms , viz. If the Scripture it self sends us to another , viz. the spirit as our Rule , then it self is not the onely Rule : But it self doth so ; therefore it self is not it . The minor of this being denied by thee was proved thus , That which the Scripture bids us walk in , by , after , or according to , that it sends to , but the Scripture it self bids us walk in , by , a fur , or according to the spirit , therefore the Scripture sends us to another besides it self as our Rule , and consequently is not ( it self , the only standing Rule of faith and life ; in proof of this minor , Gal. 5.16 . was cited , and some other Scriptures which thou leavest out ( whether as one loath to tell too much of that truth that makes against thee or no , I will leave to thy conscience , and not say , but some may likely think so for all that ( as namely Gal. 6.16 . besides I know not whether I instanced in any other , which I shall here take that leave which in that confused crowd of conference thou strovest ( as thou sayest thy self ) to out-word us by , for fear of being confuted , thou wouldest not then grant me , to urge by way of addition at this present , viz. Rom. 8.1 , 4 , 5 , 13. Phil. 3.15 and to open as I see occasion , in order to the service of that Truth I am now pleading against thee . Nevertheless it were not for the Truths sake that it may more fully appear , there is little need to say any thing more to thee than thou thy self hast set down , in thy Reply to that Text , viz. This I say , walk in , or rather to , or according to the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh ( for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ‑ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the dative case , which without the preposition's is elsewhere Engli●ht by , or according to viz. Gal. 6.16 . Phil. 3.15 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as many as walk according to this Rule , let us walk by the same Rule ) is so jejune and wretched , and poor , and miserably blinde and naked , being no other then this , viz. that phrase doth denote the priniple , not the rule of our obedience in that place , where if by principle thou intendest the Foundation , which the word principles is sometimes used as synonomous unto , * then thou quite overthrowest I.O. and helpest me against him however , but that is no news , for beside that each of you often contradicts himself , ye are , for all your siding to vindicate , the same Points of false Doctrine against the Qua. so frequently sound contradicting each other , that in order to the consutation of you both , a man may finde contradiction enough either in each of your Writings within themselves , or in the Writing of one of you unto the other ; and so 't is in this case , for I.O. owns no other Principle or Foundation of discovery of Divine Truth , then the Scriptures , for the Faith to stand on , p. 18. But thou ownest the Spirit to be the Principle of obedience : 2. If the phrase denotes the Principle only , and not the Rule as it does not , for it denotes both ) yet the other places mentioned do denote more expresly the Light and Spirit , [ and not the Letter ] to be the Rule ; which said Light and Spirit , that is the Power of God , to say the truth , is both the Principle upon which all true Faith is founded , and is to stand , 1 Cor 2.5 . in the movings of which , obedience is to be acted ; and also the Rule according to which as it moves , leads , guides , directs , impowers ( and no otherwise ) all things that are at all , are to be both done and believed . And no less do all those phrases however denote , viz Rom. 8. 1.4.5.13 . Who walk not after the flesh , but after the Spirit ; , then a being taught , led , guided , ruled , directed by , as well as moved , acted , and enabled from the Spirit so or so to believe or do ; for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which Praeposition though join'd with the Genitive , signifies contra , against , as Gal. 5. The flesh lusteth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against the Spirit ; yet with the accusative is secundum after & according to ; so that the Light and Spirit of Christ within , is not onely the Foundation upon which , the Principle from which , but also that in which the Standard , Measure , Guide , and Rule of direction , by , after , or according to which the Saints are to walk , believe , and do whatever they do in order to their pleasing of God , and standing uncondemned in his sight . And no less then so , doth Phil. 3.16 . import , where Paul to the Saints at Philippi , with the Bishop and Deacons , according to their several statures and degrees of growth in the Light and Spirit of Christ , wishes all that were perfect ( as every one is that is faithful to his own measure ) to be so minded as himself ; yet leaving every one to believe , and judge by his own measure of Light , not binding any one to his , till God himself should reveal things as he knew them , to those that were yet otherwise minded : Neverthelesse ( quoth he ) whereunto we have already attained , let us walk , or steere our course by the same Rule , let us mind the same thing : Which same Rule , or same thing that he wills all , though their measures of Light may be different , to mind and walk by , He that shall dream it to be the Letter of the Scripture without , and not the inward Light , Grace , and Spirit of Christ , a measure and manifestation of which is according to the measure of the gift of Christ distributing to every one severally , as he will , ( to some more , some less , some one , some two , yet to every one , one talent , at least ) given to every man to profit withall , to improve , trade with , and thrive by : Matth. 25.15 . Rom. 12.3.6 . 1 Cor. 12. 7.11 . Eph. 4.7 , 8. compared with Psal. 68.18 . Gifts to the Rebellious also , 1 Pet. 4.10 , 11. I shall deem him to be more deservedly denominated a Doter , then a Doctor in Divinity , or a true Teacher of the things of God , and the Gospel , seeing the so-call'd Scripture-Rule or Canon , so much counted on , as that no other , neither inward light , nor Word , nor Revelations of the Spirit , Post completum , ejus Canonem , as J.O. sayes , are at all to be admitted to the Name , Title , Honour and Authority of a Rule to the Church , according to J. O's . and T. D's . Principles , was not yet bounded , nor compleated , nor come to its full Coronation , Canonization , Consecration , and Consignation , by any Clerical Convocation of Divines ( as it did afterwards ) while Paul wrote thus to the Philippians , there being more of his own and other holy men's Writings penned after this , besides the Revelation of John , which J.O. on his own head , p. 18. calls the Close of the immediate Revelation of Gods will in that way of Writing . And whether the Philippians had seen any Scripture at all , much lesse any of the Books ye call the New-Testament , more then this that Paul now wrote , when he wrote this to them , ( unless it may be conjectured from Ph. 3.1 . that he himself wrote to them before , to the same purpose as now , and therefore sayes , to write the same things to you , is safe for you ) is questionable , and more then J.O. and T.D. with both their heads laid together , are able to prove ; therefore the same Rule he bids them all walk by , according to their respective measures , and the same thing he bids them mind , was not the Scripture , but the Light and Spirit , which , having reveal'd something to them , would , as they walked perfectly by the Rule thereof , reveal all things to them in due time , that he knew , and they were ignorant of : For though the Rule appointed , design'd , and authoriz'd by God for all men to mind as one man , and to walk by from the beginning of the World to this day , is but one , i. e. the Light , Word , and Spirit in the heart and conscience ; yet the Degrees in which it is dispenced are different ; and every one that is found faithful in the improvement of what is committed to him , be it little or more , is crowned with the just account of Faithfulness , V prightnesse , and Perfection , and title to the joy , and right to have more committed to him : Yea , as if any man walk up to what he hath already attained , to the understanding of , the same shall have more abundance , If any will do his will [ saith Christ ] i.e. so far as he knows , the same shall know of the Doctrines that are taught , whether they are of God , or whether the Teachers thereof speak of themselve , , Joh. 7.15.16 . Such shall discern , and distinguish , and see , and grow into the Spirit of Iudgement and of a sound mind , and into a cleare sight of the mind of God , who manifests himself to such , as he does not to the world , who receive not the Spirit of Truth , which he gives to all in some measure , to convince them of sin , righteousnesse and judgement , and so to guide them out of sin , but that some resist him ; but to such as own truth , as receive him , and love and come to the Light , which ●evil ones hate , loving flesh and darknesse more then it , because it reproves their ill deeds , that their deeds may be manifested more and more , and come to be wrought in God , he leads into all truth ; while such proud Pharisaical Praters , as Vniversity-bred Schollars , stubborn Students , and rebellious Rabbies , Scripture-searching Scribes , that keep scribling , and preaching , and disputing all their dayes , as if they did delight to know Gods wayes , enquiring after the Ordinances of Iustice in order [ as they pretend ] to the knowledge of what is to be done ; and yet in what they know naturally , as brute beasts , by a habit of reading Chapter and Verse , as as a Horse that is versed in a way to the Pasture he is used to run in , in those very things they corrupt themselves , saying to God , when he tells them any troublesome truth , Depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes ; ●●taining the truth in unrighteousness that is told them within by the Light of God himself in their own hearts , not receiving the love of it that they may be saved ; having pleasure in unrighteousness , and no pleasure in the Truth ; such shall have at last that they have taken away from them , and in the just Iudgement of God be blasted and blinded , and given over to strong delusion to believe lyes , that they may be damned : Nevertheless , not as a Principle onely , but as a Rule of obedience , to such as truly love her , the Light within , the Spirit of God , the Word nigh in the heart , and Wisdom not onely with , but without the Letter , ever was , is and will be profitable to direct , Eccl. 10 10. And no less then this that the Spirit is the standing Rule of Faith and Life to the Church , as well as the Principle thereof , doth that Gal. 6.8.16 . evince , where the Apostle having spoken so much before in ch . 5. and the ● . verse of this 6. of the lustings of the spirit against the flesh , or evil spirit in us that lusteth to envy , of walking according to the Spirit , living according to the Spirit , being led by the Spirit , of sowing to the Spirit , the crop of which is the fruit of the Spirit , the everlasting life , the new Creature , while the Crop reaped from the fulfilling the lustings of the flesh is more and more Works of the flesh , and corruption to death and condemnation , at least adds by way of encouragement , that the walkers by the Spirit might not not be weary of well doing , thus much , viz. that so many as walk according to this Rule ; which Rule is not the Scripture , as the Divines and Doctors citing that place , as J. O. does twice over at least , viz. Ex. 3. S. 26. Ex. 4 S. 22. to that purpose , do ignorantly divine , but the Spirit , the walking in , and after which , is so often hinted at above , and the Light within , which , and not the Letter without , makes manifest both the Works of the flesh , and darknesse , and the Fruits of the Spirit , and the light : For the Letter indeed doth declare , that the works of the Flesh , and the fruits of the Spirit , are manifest ; but it declares also , that that which doth manifest them both , is the Light , by which also they were manifested before the Letter was : Which Letter likewise doth de jure declare what is to be done , and not done ; but onely the Light , de facto , what is done , and what is not done , of the Mind and Will of God , thereby inwardly , nigh , & more immediately revealed and declared , as 't is ad extra onely , and more mediately and afar off by the Letter : For all things that are reproved or approved , are [ as so ] made manifest by the Light the Letter came from : And whatsoever doth primarily and principally make manifest good and evil , right and wrong , crooked and straight , truth and falshood , simplicity and deceit it self , and darkness it self , and all false spirits , sound Doctrine and seducing , is that Light and Spirit which comes from God , and shines more or lesse in all mens hearts : This as it is the Principle , as J.O. foolishly affirms the Letter only is , p. 18. or means of discovery ; so it , and not the Writing only , as he there blindly writes , is also the Rule , or measure of judging and determining about the saving Doctrine of the Gospel ; this is , as the Light of the outward world is in it , the discovery of it self , and of all things else in their proper appearances : This is certum , Rectum , Regula , quae est mensura sui & obliqui : Hitherto are we sent ; this , and not the Letter ( as I.O. childishly asserts , p. 57. ) is asserted to be the Rule and Standard , the Touchstone of all speaking whatsoever , that must speak alone for it selfe , and try the speaking of all but it selfe , yea it s own also . By all which it is evident how the Light and Spirit is designed by God to be the unchangeable standing-Rule of Faith and Life , and the Churches Directory in all Divine Doctrines , to be believed and practised , and not the Letter of the Scripture , at least not the Letter onely , which is the matter very stifly affirmed , and stickled for by J.O. and T.D. the latter of which stands up to vindicate it in these terms , see T. D ' . second Pamphlet , p. 16. that the Scriptures are the Word of God , and the Rule of Faith and Life , and that there is no other standing-Rule but the Scriptures : The former in these , If every man's private Light , ( so he floutingly calls that particular measure of that publike Light of Christ , which is one , and the same in all ) be the Rule of yeilding obedience unto God , then so many men , so many Rules ; but the Divine Canon is but onely one ; and that the holy Scripture is that only Rule , is abundantly shewn , quoth J.O. before o In proof of which saying the Rule is but one , J.O. quotes that Gal. 6.16 . which speakes not of the Scripture at all : And Eph. 3.16 . which speaks expresly of the Spirit of God , as the next verse does of Christ the Word , which we confess is the Rule , but neither the one nor the other of the Scripture , Isa. S. 20. which speaks of the Law and Testimony , which are the Light and Spirit , as I shall shew anon : For this place is three times at least alluded to by J.O. to the like little purpose , and not the Letter of the Scripture . Obj. And if any say , But is not the Sripture profitable to direct , yea for Doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousnesse , able to make wise to salvacion , to make a man of God perfect , thorowly furnished , or as the word is , perfected into all good works , according to 2 Tim. 3.15 , 16 , 17. and so to be the onely Rule , Canon , Standard , Touch-stone in all cases ? Rep. This place is insisted upon , or quoted three or four times by I. O. To whom I say , howbeit there are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 holy Scriptures , as I have said elsewhere , that are not written with Ink and Pen , nor ingraven in stones ; but with the Finger and Spirit of the living God upon the fleshly Tables of mens hearts ; which make such as Timothy was , who knew that spirit in himself , spoke of Iob 32.8 . and that inward Writing and inspiration of the Almighty that onely giveth the understanding , which are most profitable for Doctrine , Correction , Reproof , Instruction in Righteousness ; and , without any outward Scripture , to perfect the man of God , fit and furnish him ( as no outward Scriptures can possibly do ( without these ) for any , much less for every ) good work , which inward Scripture , in which holy men read the Gospel before 't was ever written outwardly with Ink and Pen , foreseeing that God would justifie the Gentiles through Faith in Christ the Light , preached the Gospel four hundred years before your Scripture , Canon , or Rule ad extra , was ever written . Howbeit I say , There is a Scripture ad intra , that ye read little in , testified to , and talk't of by your external Text , ye onely talk for 2 Cor. 3. Yet to J. O. I grant the outward Scripture , and that in its integrity , so far as free from corruption by mis-transcription , and mis-translation , to be holy , just , good , useful and profitable for all the things specified in the Text of Paul to Timothy , when read and understood in that Light , Wisdom and Spirit that gave it out by those holy men , which onely knows the Mystery of its own minde and meaning therein , and reveals it ' also to Babes and simple honest hearts , that come at ' fools to it , looking to the Lord alone for wisdome , out of whose mouth comes that knowledge and understanding , whereby the Scripture is seen as to the spirituality and substance of it when the plain things of it are hid from the wise and prudent that furfeit with their own conceited science , and lean to their own Animal understanding , and in that give their several senses and sentences on it , for the natural ; or as the word is , 1 Cor. 2.14 , 15 , 16. * the Animal man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God , not the hidden wisdome of God , which none of the Princes of this world know , 1 Cor. 2.6 , 7 , 8. &c. which in a mystry , or meer Riddle to their degenerate reason , is uttered in the very outward Scripture , neither can the animal man by his wisdome from beneath ( for all his bitter envying and strife within himself against all that oppose him , wherein he glories and lyes against the truth , the fruit of which envy is confusion and every evil work , which wisdome is but earthly , sensual , * Animal , * devillisbly deceitful , Jam. 3.14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. ) know the things of God , for they are spiritually discerned , and by the spiritual man only , that discerns and judges all , and is falsely judged by all , though truly discerned by none that are beneath him . The outward Scripture I say is profitable to such as Timothy was , to men of God to make them , who are wise in the Spirit , wiser and wiser through their faith in the light to their own and others salvation , and to furnish such a Minister as Timothy was , who knows when , and ( being in the Spirit ) how , and how far forth to use it for every good work in his Ministry : And such as are full of might and power first by the Spirit of the Lord upon them , as Micah was , Mic. 3. and as Apollo was , are mighty also in the Scripture , and furnished mightily to confound the Scripture-searching Scribes , and all gain-sayers of the Light , as they were in their times . So that we deny not the Scriptures ad extra to be many wayes useful , profitable in their place and time , where they are to be read , as they are not , in so much as the tenth part of the world , and where they are read in the light , & by them , who live in that Light , that gave them forth , which are not the hundreth part of those , that usually read and search them ; but will all this prove them to be what I.O. and T.D. contend so stiffly to have them be . viz. in that high Authority of the Rule , nay the only most perfect standing Rule of all true belief and holy life , before the very light and spirit of God they had their very original supreme being from , thorow the hands of holy men , as but subordinate instruments in their first purity as writings , except that little that was pend by God himself , which we now have not ? which Scriptures yet as to the being they now have , are handed to us from no higher principle then the transcription of meer fallible , and as I.O. sayes , un-inspired men ? Ab sit imaginatio , let the thoughts hereof be far from us that the Scripture is the only Rule , for if we should grant it to be ( so far as truly transcribed in the Copies of the Original ) a Rule at all , or a secondary Rule , which name of Rule is more than it any where calls it self by , yet the prime , most perfect Rule it is not , much less is it the only Rule to the Church or any men ; and though we are as forward as any , on a due account , to own the profitablenss of the very letter , as it declares of the words of truth and uprightness , and the Doctrine that is according unto godliness , and to own its great usefulness , as to the purposes premised , and so affirm that the dead letter , so far as not depraved from its primitive purity , doth as truly answer and hold proportion with the light , and living word , as the shadow doth with the substance , the life-less picture with the living person it represents , and as the voice , which is Imago verbi the Image of the Word , with the Word it is the Image of , or the Eccho , which is the Image of the voice , doth with the voice it answers to , insomuch that as Quae conveniunt in aliquo tertio santidem , what holds measure or weight , and keeps correspondency or proportion with a third thing , that agrees with the standard or sealed Canon , agrees also with the standard it self ; so whose life squares truly and substantially with the letter convenes with the light and spirit it imediately issued out from ; and he that lives and speaks perfectly and adaequately according to the Scripture , so far speaks and lives according to , and not besides the light and spirit , which the letter requires man to live , beleeve , and walk in and by , as neither doth or can he erre from the letter if he had never heard , read , or seen it , who answers the measure of the light and spirit that is lent him to live by ; yet for all this , as T.D. gives this reason for his untrue imagination why this part of the inspired Scripture you have only is the only Rule , and not any Sermons or private religious discourses , which have , the same common ends with the Scriptures , no nor yet any other writings but those ye have , if we could prove and produce ( as assuredly we shall anon ) any legitimate ones of Divine inspiration , though otherwise as useful and profitable as those ye have , and agreeing therewith , viz. because God did not give order , quoth he , for the one , as he did , thinks he , for the other ; and there is no other Scripture appointed of God to be a Rule of faith and manners , but what is bound up in the Bible ( and where he appointed that we must take account of you by and by ) for besides such inspiration to make a Rule is necessary Gods appointment of a writing to that end , saith he , God thought that sufficient which we have , therefore we can look upon no more with such regard at we do upon that . See T. D's first Pamphlet , p. 26 , 27.43,44 . and of his second Pamphlet p. 17 , 18. The difference , quoth he , is in Gods arbitrary dispensation ; so do I give this reason of our true assertion , that howbeit the Scripture is profitable , and may be useful and called [ as by it self yet it no where is ] a Rule as it agree's with the light and spirit , where it is not adulterated by mans mistransciptions , mistranslations , misconstructions . Yet the Canon or most perfect and only standing Rule it is not because God did never Authorize or appoint it so to be , but [ to retort back to T.D. in his own vain phrase ] thought the measure of his light and spirit every one hath from himself sufficient to make a standard of , besides whose inspiration of the said Scripture to make a Rule is necessary Gods appointment of a Writing to such an end , the difference lyes in God arbitrary dispensation , as well as in the excellent preheminence of the Spirit and Light above the Letter , who would have that to be the Rule , Canon , Standard , Touchstone , which was so from the beginning of the world , two thousand years afore the letter was , even to this day , even the Spirit , then which there can be no other designed by him to , that end , if I. O's words be true , Ex. 4. s. 22. who saith Vnicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinus , the Divine Canon or Rule , is but one , not more , then which also there is no other mentioned in the Scripture by that name of the Rule , but the Light and Spirit ( as I have shewed above ) out of those places where the Rule is spoken of , and if there be , let I.O. or T.D. assign where , and hereupon , as he saith in the other case , so conclude I here in this , we can look upon none but the Light and Spirit , upon no letter with such regard as the only Rule , as we do upon that . So then notwithstanding T. D's impertinent , unimportant , utterly untrue Reply to this Argument , That we are to walk by is our Rule , but the Spirit is that the Scripture sayes we are to walk by , Gal. 5.16 . therefore the Spirit is the Rule , which Reply runs , viz. that phrase denotes the principle not the Rule of our obedience in that place , the Argument stands firm over the head of it ; for though it betoken the principle also , yet not only , nor exclusively of the Rule , but rather the Rule more evidently , and much more eminently than the other , yea that the Spirit is the principle of all true obedience is professed positively by us , who own nothing to be truly done in way of true obedience unto God , nor the letter , but what is done from the principle , power , motion , assistance , and ability of the Spirit of God , or that is done without the Spirits in-dwelling ; yet in that place considered together with the rest above cited , it is most clear that the Apostle speaks of the Spirit principally as of the Rule by which we are to walk [ and the word walk imports no less than the act of proceeding or going on ] and not the principle , original , or primum mobile , as I may say , from which we are to begin to act and move in way of obedience unto God. But as unanswerable as T. D's . answer is to our Argument , yet it serves us very well to prove him a self-contradicter , as he and I.O. also are in multitudes of more matters besides , and in that it is as answerable as may to his wonted self ; for let but any reasonable Reader observe , as it follows p. 29. of his first Pamphlet what T.D. sayes next of all to this passage of the Spirits being the principle , that is , the original or beginning of our obedience from which as being the primum movens and Auxilians , beforehand moving and assisting , we are after to obey , and he shall see how he overthrows it himself in his own most immediately ensuing speech ; for howbeit he sayes the Spirit is the principle of our obedience , which is as much as to say , that in which we first walk whose assistance must be antecedent to our true walking according to the letter , which is not denied by us , yet when we say the same with him he unsayes his own saying again , rather then he will side with us , for whereas I said , as his own self there relates , that the Spirit is antecedent to the letter , so that none tan walk in the letter , till they walk in the spirit : he replies thus , viz. The spirit is subsequent to the letter , in respect of the assistance and ability which he gives to obedience ; and whereas you affirm , quoth he , That none can walk in the letter till they walk in the spirit , if walking in the spirit be meant of special assistance , which is as much as to say , if by that phrase of walking in the Spirit , you mean the Spirits being the prinriple of our obedience , t is false , for many walk in many things according to the letter without the spirits in dwelling ▪ as Paul while a Pharisee , was touching the righteousness of the Law blameless , Psa. 3.6 . in which , beside the rounds he runs in , and the contradiction to himself above , T.D. sayes false , for though none walk according to the letter in truth , and as to the spiritual obedience it calls for , without the Spirits in-being and assistance , and power ; as the Principle from which they must so walk , for howbeit Paul walked according to the righteousness of the Law , interpreted in sensu Pharisaico , according to the Pharisees outside glosses on it , who saw not into the marrow , mystery and spirituality of it , and was zealous of God , as to the literal observation of many things , yet till the Law which is the light , and spiritual came to him who was in his carnal condition , and shewed him sin in the lust , of which Christ expounds the Law , Matth. 5 , he kept not the Tetter as to the spiritual import and true intent and utmost meaning of the spirit and minde Christ exprest therein to the spiritual understanding , though not to the natural , but abstained only from outward grosse acts of sin , and in his blind zeal persecuted the Church , as ye in your wild-braind zial do at this day . The Spirit is the principle from which we are to walke , and with ut which we cannot walke according to the letter , yet , to go round again , many walk according to the letter without the Spirits in-dwelling ▪ So pervenire ad summum nisi ex principiis nemo potest ; Pervenire ad summm sine principiis aliquis potest . This is the summe of T.Ds. Doctrine . Besides if the Spirit be the principle only that men begin to beleeve and obey from , and not the Rule according to which they go on in beleeving and obeying , then it seems with thee faith is to be begun and begotten , and born by the Spirit , but kept , preserved , and nourished up to perfection by the letter , which is a Doctrine of deep dotage and deceit , for it is the Spirit of Christ , and the light that is both the Creator and Preserver , the Author and finisher of the faith , insomuch that I may truly , and do here justly cry out against you blind , bewitching broachers , and your blind bewitched beleevers of it , as Paul on the Galatians , I marvel that ye should be so sottishly departed and degenerated from the simplicity of the primitive Gospel so plainly declared in the very letter it self , which asserts the Light , Spirit and Word within to be both the principle and the Rule . O ye foolish Prophets and foolish People who hath bewitched you that ye should be so reprobate as to the knowledge of the truth ? Are ye so foolish as to fancy that when men have once begun in the Spirit , they must be preserved in their faith , and regulated and made perfect by their fleshly attendences to the Letter ? that the Vniversi●ies and Ministers meerly of it , and not of the Spirit , are so lost about , and wrangling about , that to this day they are not agreed about the integrity of its Text ? They that ministed the spirit among men at first , and were even by the very letter they wrote , Ministers by whom men beleeved in the light , did they call them so much to the heeding or hearing of the letter themselves wrote , as to the hearing of the Word of faith they preached and testified to both in their Writings , and by Word of mouth ? even that which before they wrote to them at all was nigh in their heart , and in their mouth that they might do it ? Tell me ye that desire to be under the teachings of the letter only , not the light , do you not hear the letter telling of another Rule besides it self , which it self doth only point to ? doth not the letter teach you the Spirit and light is both the principle , and principal means also of discovery of right and wrong , as is shewed above ? doth the letter part the business of our obedience , as your party coloured discourses thereof would seem to make it do , between it self , and the Spirit ? or say any where that the Spirit is the principle , but the letter it self the Rule of our obedience ? that the spirit creates , and the letter preserves faith , as T.D. dreamingly divines ? saith it not that the Spirit is both ? And yet , O the muddin●ss ( not to say madness ) of our now Ministers ! Another while again even within the space of one page , behold O ye wandring wonderers , and wondering w●nderers after these vain men , and their whisling Butterfly-businesses that would seem wise though they are but as wilde Asses col●s , and ye shall see T.D. who affirms the spirit to be the Principle , and that which creates faith , and the letter the Rule that prese●ves it , affirming the letter to be both , i.e. not only the only Rule of it but the Principle of it also , and ascribing ( in these words p. 28. of his fi●st , as also in the 17. page of his second , God did not intend , nor give order for them , i.e. for more writings than we have in our Bibles to be the Rule , but hath assured us as much as is sufficient to create and preserve faith in the Gospel we have ) both the first being , begetting and beginning of faith to the Scripture ; as also I.O. ( who jumps with him in one , as they do together in most things ) in these words , Ex. 3. s. 39. Not only the begetting of faith , but also the building up in it while we live here is the end of the Scripture * . What more is uttered by T.D. as to this head of the Scriptures being the only rule , is in answer to this Argument was urged against him as himself relates it , but to disadvantage p. 29.30 . of his first Pamph. ) at the dispute on this wise : If the Rule of faith and life was before the Scripture was , then the Scripture is not the Rule &c. but the Rule was before the Scripture , therefore , &c. To which said Answer of T. D's is no other than a giving of the whole cause in question between us , viz. whether the Scripture , i.e. the Writing or Letter is the Rule or no ? sor quoth T.D. ) Your Argument concludes nothing against us , for we assert the matier contained in the Scripture is a standing Rule , y●ur Argument proves but that there was a Rule before this Writing ; we grant that God revealed himself by Visions , Dreams : Since the Gospel preached to Adam there hath not been any increase of Truths , Quoad essentiam , sed tantum quoad explicationem ( as the Learned speak of the Articles of our faith ) the manner of conveyance is different then and now , but the matter or doctrines conveyed , still the same . Rep. If this conclude nothing against you for as much as ye own doctrine or matter only contained in , and declared by the Scripture , and not the letter to be the Rule , how conclusive you outcries are against the Qua. as that they are denyers of the Scripture , a Fool may feel , since they own the holy doctrine and matter in the Scripture , which is the Light , Spirit , and Word in the heart to be the Rule as your selves do , and so to have been also before the Scripture was , though they deny the meer Writing to be the Rule , which with your selves is not the matter conveyed , but meerly the manner of conveyance , not the essential truth it self , but only the form of its explication , which manner of conveyance or form of explication , your selves it seems do deny here to be the Rule as well as we , with us asserting only the matter , truth , or doctrine contained and conveyed in the Writing so to be . If ye assert no more than the truth , doctrine , or matters contained in the Scriptures to be the Rule , which matters thou thy self , T.D. p. 30 , 31. of thy first Pamph. sayest , is that Word of faith the Apostles preached , which was the Word , we assert to be the Rule , that is nigh in the heart , Rom. 10 and dare not assert your selves the meer letter or Scripture so to be , I trow , wherein differ you from the Quae. whom you quarrel with as deniers of the Scriptures ? Will you never be at quiet with the Qua. but quarrelling against them , when they affirm the truths , wherein your selves assent to them , as much as when they deny the untruths , wherein ye dissent from them ? Will you allow them neither to say the sound doctrines which your selves are forced to confess to , nor to gainsay the errors and false doctrines , which ye would fain force you false faith of upon them ? ye assert no more , but that the matter or doctrine conveyed , and truth explicated therein , which is the light , spirit , or living Word , it self , is the Rule , as thou sayest here , so denying the letter , writing , or meer Text to be it ; we affirm nor more , nor less , yet ye own and justifie your selves as owners , and deny , and judge us as deniers as of of the Scriptures : Ye challenge us to dispute it against us that the Scripture is the Word of God , the only Rule , &c. when we meet you before hundreds to that end , you confess with us , as Christopher Fowler did at Reading , T.D. at Sandwich , and I.O. doth in his Declartion , or Latine Divinity Disputations , * that you mean not the Scripture formally considered , the Letter , or Text it self ye talk for , not the Writing , but the holy matter and doctrine contained , held forth testified to therein the Word in the heart , of which we say its a Light , a Rule , denying the letter only so to be ; yet the same truth , when ye tell it , is the truth , when we tell it as a lye : Ye venture upon the open stage against us a vile persons in our Tenets about the Scriptures , when ye are there ye verefie the very self-same truth we vindicate against you , and say with us the Scripture or Writing which is the formality of the Scripture , quae dat esse Rei ) sormally considered is not the Word , nor the Rule nor any thing but a dead letter , only the matter and truth of the Text testified to is the Word , Rule , Light , &c. as we say it is only : Yet when ye go away , though from the first to the last ye give us the cause , yet we must give you leave , or else you will steal it , to carry , away the colours , and boast and brag , and vapour as the men that had the victory , till , by venting your lyes so fast to manifest the Qua. folly , ye fling out your own folly to the view of all men . T.D. But ( quoth T.D. p. 30.1 . Pamph. All this while you go about to delude the simple , as if you denied only this way of writing to have alwayes been the only way of conveyance , and you magnifie the Spirit , that with more security ye may throw down the letter of the Scripture , and if you would speak out plainly , that ye call the Spirit , will be found to be the dictates of your consciences blinde and corrupt as they are the Lord knows , and you are no further bound to obey the letter of the Scripture then you are willing to obey it . Rep. As for thy lyes of the friends of truth , that light stuff like the chaffe the winde will drive away : The Lord knows , whose consciences are blind and corrupt , yours or ours , and as to thy slighting the dictates of conscience , which work I.O. is not behinde thee in , flouting at what is dictated by the Light of God in it , and by the light therein from it to men , as Figment , Fannaticism , Enthusiasm , and such like dirty denominations , I need refer no further then too I.O. whose magnifications of the dictates of conscience otherwhiles may well serve to the contradiction and confutation of himself , and thee too , and stop both thy mouth and his own too , who ●ayes pag. 42. ●3 , 44,45 . of the conscience , and the voice of God therein , and the instinct of good and evil , and self-judgement God hath placed , and indeleably planted therein , it declares it self to be from God by its own light and Authority , there is no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses , that what his conscience speaks it speaks from God , whether it bear testimony to the righteousness of God , or that obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him ; it shews the work of the Law written in the heart , and discovers its Author in whole name it speaks , and much more to the like purpose ; so that he , and thou too , may with shame enough reflect upon your ignorant vilifications of it . As for our obedience to the Letter , we are by the Spirit so bound to that , not so far only as we are willing , as thou belie●t us , but in a cross to our own wills , that while we walk in the Spirit , which is our Rule , we cannot disobey the Letter , but fulfill it , while your selves , who prate of your being bound to obey it , walk at large after your own wills and lusts in the liberty of your flesh and through your boundless boasting of that , ye as boundlesly break , do dishonour both God and your selves . As for our going about to deceive the simple , we deny all Deceivers and Deceit , teaching no other Doctrine nor Gospel then what Paul delivered , then which whoever it is that brings or broaches another , whether it be we , who are hated as Devils , or you , who are honoured as Angels of light from heaven by such as dwell in the depths and darkness of hell ; I say with Paul , let him be accursed ; but those are now marked and manifested plainly enough who cause the Divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrine the Saints learned of old , & by the children of the day are avoided also ; for they that are such serve not the Lord Iesus Christ but their own bellies and yet by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , Rom. 16.17 , 18. What T.D. sayes in his second Pamph. as to this question of the Scriptures being a Rule , is no new thing , but a Reference of men for an answer to G. Whiteheads Queries ( which he was shye of saying much to , seeing he had not much to say ) to his old trite , trivial Toy entituled the Qua. Folly , the very book that G. Whitehead had Routed before ; and so dry is T.D. pumped that most of his two Butter-flyes excepting the wings it flyes with i. e. His Epistle and his Narrative , consists of Repetitions of what he had uttered in the other , that was Routed , and new References of his Reader to that old one , notwithstanding so much is added to to this head in p. 16. of his second Pamph. as more fully gives us the cause we contend for against him , viz. That the Truth , Doctrine , Matter , and not the Scripture , Text , or Letter is the Rule to men ; I must [ quoth he ] again refer the Reader for an answer to these Queries ( meaning G.Ws. ) to Qua. Folly ( in which yet none of them are answered ) and I adde , the matter contained in the Scriptures is a Rule to all men [ so far as t is revealed to them ] and was so before it was put into writing ; and so much of it as is written upon the hearts of Heathens is a Rule to them . Rep. Minde Reader how T.D. yeelds the Question to the Qua. again in his late last Lazy labours , which Question between the Qua and the Priests is not about the holy Doctrine , Truth and matter ( for the Qua. still own that to be as to the substantials , before which the shadowy figurative part thereof flyes away , everlastingly the same , an inalterable , fixt , firm , inward , spiritual , Word and Light , which neither doth , not can ever perish , corrupt , or pass away ) but about the outward Scripture , Writing , Text , or Letter , which uno ore with one voice all our Priests and people vote to be the Rule , Touchstone , Word , &c. which we deny , which matter notwithstanding when it comes to the point of proof before people , they dare denominate only to be the only Rule and Word , denying those high Titles to the naked Letter as well as we ; crying out with a dreadful ditty against the Qua. in their Pulpits , as deniers of the Scriptures , the Bible to be the Word of God , the Rule , &c. and when we enter the lifts with them , then finding themselves unable to carry it against us , falling down before us in confessions to us that it is the Divine truth and matter only contained in the Scripture which is the Rule to all men so far as it , that is , that Truth and matter is revealed to them ( as it is here confessed also by T.D. to be to the very Heathen in their hearts that have no Scripture ) and was so before it was put into writing , that is , before the Scripture was , which seeing it is so confest , in the same way as I argued above about the Foundation against I.O. so may I here against T.D. and him both about the Rule , viz. Arg. 1. The Rule must be something that is in being before the faith and life that is to be Regulated by it . 2. Must be that the Scripture testifies to be the Rule . 3. Something that is firm , fixt , sure , stable , inflexible , infallible , inalterable , else all the work wrought by a Lesbian Rule , a soft waxen measure , may be , ad infinitum , crooked , scanty , erroneous , disorderly in all Dimensions at mens pleasure , who may [ as our Priests mostly do transcribe , translate , expound , rectifie the Scripture according to their crooked conceits , and their ( Antichristian ) Analogy of faith ( as they use to speak ) and not their crooked conceits , and false faith according to the true Theology , that is plain to godly honest hearted men in the S●ripture ] wrest their Rule to their own wills , self-ends , interests , and where it likes not their unruly selves to be Ruled by it , Run from it , or rather Rule over ir as they list . But the Light and Spirit , and Truth , and living Word , and holy Doctrine , was in being before the faith and life of any man. 2. Is testified by the Scripture [ at is above shewed ] to be the Rule . 3 Is inalserable , firm , &c. and the Scripture it self is already proved , and is yet more to be proved not to be so , therefore the Light , Truth , &c. not the Scripture , Text &c. is the Rule . Be sides what Ioh. Tombs and Rich. ●axter , who must here be wrapt with their own weapon , argue falsely against the Lights being the Rule , I may truly argue against the Letters being it . For page 51. of their Book , entituled , The true old Light. Thus they dispute , viz. That which is variable and alterable cannot be a persons Rule , for its the property of a Rule to be invariable and the same at all times . The Rules , Measures and Weights and Dialls and Squares , and what other things are made if they be varied they cease to be Rules , for Rules should be fixed and certain . But there is nothing more variable then mens light in them ( say they falsely ) but [ say I truly ] then a Letter or Writing without ; That which is to day , say they , taken for light , is to morrow judged to be darkness , and that light which is this day in a person , may be lessened to morrow ; a person may become Fanatick and dote , who yesterday was heard with applause , therefore each persons light cannot be his Rule , so us that at all times he should be bid to look to it , as a safe guide , as the Qua. do . And , say I , that which is to day Transcribed , Translated , Interpreted so , and in such a sense by some , may be through Mis-transcription , Mis-translation , Mis-interpretation , be wrested as a Nose of wax to morrow by others into a clear contrary sense , by Transposition of Hebrew letters , which in shape and sound are alike , either in way of mistake among the most careful Scribes in the world , or at the m●er will and pleasure of Criticks , who ad libitum may turn the Text into twenty senses one after another , as seems good to them , witness I.O. himself , who [ as is elswhere shewed ] in many pages together of his Epistle Dedicatory tells how easie it is so to do , yea to turn that one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the different pointing of it into 8 sundry senses , some whereof are clear contrary to ; each other ; yea it is but doing so , or so saith he , and as many various lections arise in the very original Text as a man pleases to make . It being so then with the Letter , that it is so variable and flexible , and contrariwise the Light being fixt , firm , stable without variation , as it is ( for all their lying of it ) it 's eternally and unchangeably the same even yesterday , to day , and for ever , as Christ is from whom it comes , one and the same in all ; the Foundation and witness of God which stands sure , and keeps its place in the consciences of men let them go whether they will , testifying the same truth , as Gods witness , in all men , that it doth in any m●n both de jure & defacto also , never consenting to any evil , but condemning it all in all men more or less . Therefore , say I , in consutation of I O. T. D. I.To. and Rich. Baxter out of their own Books , the Light , Word , and Spirit of God within every one may and ought to be every mans Rule , so as that at all times he should be bid to look to it , and follow it as a guide as the Qua. do . But the Text , or Letter without ( however owned as it is by me above , to be useful and profitable for men of God that know how to use it ) cannot be the most perfect , stable Standard , much less the only infallible Rule and guide of mens faith and life as the blind guides say ( in words it is though ( in works ) they themseves live and walk besides it as much as any . Again , if the Scriptures be the Rule , and not the Light and Spirit , then either there was no Rule before the Scripture , or else they who lived before the Scripture had one Rule , we another , and so consequently there are two Rules for the one faith of the one holy Church . But all these whimsies are most absurd , for then the one Church hath tot regulus quot novas explicationes ejusdem veritaetis , as many Rules as particular wayes of Revelation of the truth . And T.D. said the Truth was one , and that the matter was the Rule before the writing was , and I.O. sayes , Ex. 4. s. 22. Vnicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinus , the Divine Rule is but one , and so say I of the one general Catholick Church , or Assembly of the first born from Abel to this day , therefore the Light , Spirit , and not the Scripture is the Rule . As for I. Os shallow shuffling off the Lights being the Rule , and sleight slinging at it , Testaque , lutoque , with his muddy pellet in that Section , * If every mans private light be the Rule of obedience , then we have as many Rules as men , but the Divine Rule is onely one and that only one , ( quoth he falsely elsewhere * is the Scripture . Rep. His minor , as is said above , serves our turn , and as for his major , its consequence is most false , if by the Word private light he means every ones particular measure of light that shines from God into his conscience , for that doth not make tot Regulas &c. so many men , so many Rules ; for the Light and Spirit , which is the only Rule , is one , and the self-same thing in all , distributed to every one ( as to degrees which never vary the nature of any thing ) severally as seems good to him : And this is but a piece of his own peevish private piece of prate , so often as he doth in his Disputes , to term the light of God we testifie to , as one in all , though in different measures , lumen privatum , the private light , for its lumen publicum & commune , that one publick light , that comes and is communicated from God , and reproves sin in all men , and never did , nor doth consent to any iniquity , but condemns it in all men , and all men as found in sin , and were I.O. as well skilled in the Scripture , as he is in the way of unskilful scribling for it , and would once learn of Paul whom he often prates on , he would have learnt ere this time with him to stile the light in all the different measures of it attained to by men , to be but one Rule , one thing still , and not to say that if every man minde the light in himself then so many men so many Rules , which Apostle , Phil. 3 15 , 16. saith , Whereunto we have already attained , let us walk by the same Rule , let us minde the same thing . And as to T.Ds. saying , That so much of the matter contained in the Scripture as is written upon the hearts of the Heatbens is a Rule to them , I very readily grant that to be the very truth ; but what will T.D. get by it , but 1. The glory of his granting to the Qua. that other Grand Question , about which he quarrels with them , viz ▪ the being of a measure of the same matter , and not na●●ral , as man is in statu corrupto , but supernatural and spiritual light of truth , which is contained and testified in the Scripture to be in all men in the world , even in the Heathen that have not the Scripture . 2. The fuller just censure of a contradicter of himself , who by telling the truth herein , gainsayes that false Doctrine which he teaches for Truth in another place . For here he owns some of the same truth or holy Doctrine declared in the Scripture which himself , and I.O. stickle to prove it against such as deny it not ( for the truth is so though the Text is not ) that every Tittle and Apex thereof is as equally divine , or supernatural , and entirely given by God himself , and as immediately as the very voice wherewith he spake to , and in the Prophets . See I.O. p. 27.153 . and properly the Word of God , 24. and the Gospel and a supernatural and spiritual light , and such like . See I.O. p. 77. and T.D. p. 1 , 2. of 1. Pamph. and p. 23. of his 2. Pamph. ) I say here T.D. owns some of that same Matter , Light , Truth , Law or Gospel , the letter declares to be written upon the hearts of the Heathens , that never had the letter , and to be the Rule from God to them . But when we affirm as the Scripture doth , and T.D. too , that every man in the world is enlightned by Christ the true light , 1 Joh. 9. with some measure of that Light the Letter speaks of , and hath some of that holy , divine , supernatural , spiritual truth , doctrine , and Evangelical matter , which the whole Scripture either more obscurely , or more clearly declares , then he denies it , asserting the Gentiles or Heathens to have none of those Judgements that God gave to Israel ; and as T.D. to the contradiction of himself ; so I O : Christus nullâ sub consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & stngulis hominibus du sit , Ex. 4. s. 17. Christ hath in no kind vouchsafed saving Light to all and every man. One ignorant untrue Assertion more of T.D. while my eye is on it I may not here let pass without notifying it to the Reader , and then for ought I see , I may leave T.D. as to his talk of the Scriptures being in the nature , or office , or authority of a Rule , and see what I.O. sayes as to this . T.D. sayes p. 17. of his 2. Pamph. Suppose we had the signs recorded that are not written , yet were they not our Rule , yet confesses that were they written they might be useful being done for the very same end with those lest us . G. W. telling him he contradicts himself in so saying , T.D. answers , he is not sensible of any contradiction herein , but of subordination only between the efficient and instrumental cause ; That the second creation doth not exclude , though the first did , instruments or second causes , instancing Iam. 1.18 . Of his own will begat he us by the Word of truth : And Rom. 10.17 . Faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God. Rep. To which say I T.D. is not so little sensible of the contradiction G.W. charges him with , as every understanding Reader may be greatly sensible of the flat falshood , that is told for truth in this latter clause , wherein he asserts the first creation did exclude second causes or instruments , though the second doth not , whereas if T.D. had not been in a Dream , he would have seen that the first Creation is so far from excluding instruments or second causes , if that be an instrument or second cause , which himself instances to be one in the second Creation , viz. The Word of God ; for as the Scripture sayes that the Saints are begotten to God and faith by the Word of God , so it sayes but that our Scriblers for the Scriptures are little skill'd in it , and so study it in their dark minds till they cannot see what , who is not blinde cannot easily over-look ) Heb. 11.3 . 2 Pet. 3.5.7 . By faith we understand , in plurali , the worlds were framed by the Word of God , and that by the Word of God , the heavens and earth were of old , and the heavens and earth that now are by the same Word are kept in store and reserved to fire against the day of Judgement and perdition of ungodly men . You had need be ashamed to pretend to be such appearers in publick pro Scripturis that appear so much in your testimony so flatly against them as ye do . Now as to J. Os. prosecution of the proof of this matter , which he so often over and over again avouches as a truth with divine faith to be imbraced on pain and peril of eternal ruine and damnation , viz That the Scriptures are in the Authority of , the only and perfect Rule and Canon since the compleating of which no inward Light or Spirit , or new Revelations about the faith and Divine worship of the Saints are either to be expected or admitted , it lyes more in the negative , then the positive , or affirmative , consisting for more largely of disproofs ( such as they are ) of any inward Light , Spirit , or spiritual Revelation to be at all , then of proofs of the Letter or Scripture ( yet some pedling ones are puzled out to such a purpose ) to be altogether and alone the Rule of faith , holy life , and divine worship . He professes to prove the inward Spirit or Light , the Qua. plead for not to be the Rule , and that the Scripture or Letter is so , two wayes , first , Authoritative , or by the Scripture it self . 2. Rationative , or by a Rational way of Argumentation : But though I own the Authority and veracity of the Scripture , so far that if I.O. could produce any place of the Bible , as he pretends to do many , wherein the Scriptures do ascribe to themselves the Honor , Authority and Title of the onely perfect Rule either in terminis , or by any such due deduction , as is not more duely deniable , then so much as probale to a prudent man indeed , I should truly submit to one such testimony , being perswaded that the Scriptures are writings of truth , where not altered , and not adulterated by mens mistakings , and mistranscribings , yet the Scriptures being wrested besides all sense and reason by J.O. and the Theologians he adhears to , to that end , I deny his proofs to be either Athoratative or Rational . The testimonies he urges the Authority of , to prove the Text to be in the Authority of the only Rule he casts into four Classes ; the first sort of which consist of such places as expresse ( as he sayes ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vel per immediatam cousequentiam perfectionem hanc Scripturis ascribunt , do expresly & verbatim , or else by immediate consequence ascribe such a perfection as of the only Rule to the Scriptures . The second such as expresly reject all Additions to the Text and Word of God whatever . The third such as contain the examples of Christ and the Apostles trying and commanding to try all things by the Scriptures . The fourth such as commend the holy Scriptures to all Religious uses . Of the first sort he impannels eleven in all ▪ not being able it seems to pick out a whole Jury to serve his turn , howbeit I acknowledge these , if they would as freely , as he forcibly would have them , pass their verdict for him , to be enough , being all of them good and true witnesses in another case then he calls them for , they stand all together in Ex. 3. s. 26. viz. Joh. 2. ult . 2 Tim. 3 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. Psal. 19.18 . Luke 1.3 , 4. Luke 16.29 . Act. 1.1 . Rom. 10 , 17. Eph. 2.19 , 20. 2 Pet. 1.19 . 2 Cor. 3.24 Gal. 6 16. Of the second seven , viz. Deut. 4.2.12.32 . Rev. 22 18. Gal. 1.8 . Mat. 15.6 . 1 Cor. 4.6 . Isa. S. 20. Of the third four , viz. Luke 16.28 , 29 , 30 Act 17.11.21 . Act. 18.24.28 . Act. 26.22 . with intimation of very many more commonly cited as he saith to that purpose . Of the fourth , seven , viz. Joh. 1.7 . Deut 28.58 . Luke 24 27. Joh. 5.39 . Rom. 15.4 . Phil. 3.1 . 1 Joh. 1.4 . It may do well to take some notice of them at least and hear their evidence . I shall draw them up into the form of an Argument , and then we shall see what expressnes in them , or immediate consequence there is from them to the Scriptures being the only Rule . Arg. John sayes Jesus did more signs then are written in his Book or History of him , but what he wrote was that men might beleeve that Jesus is the Son of God , and beleeving might have life through his Name . David , that the Law of God is perfect , converting the soul , the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple , the Statutes of the Lord pure , enlightning the eyes . Luke , that it seemed good to him also , seeing some others had taken in hand such a worke , having had perfect understanding from the first of the things Iesus did and taught , to write an orderly Declaration thereof to Theopilus ( whether a particular person so called , or any lover of God who can tell ? for so is the name by interpretation ) that he might know the certainty of the things wherein he [ by which it seems rather to have been some eminent man ] had been before in part informed ; and Christ said , Men must hear Moses and the Prophets , or else will not be perswaded to repent , if one rise to them from the dead . Peter , that the Saints have a more sure word of Prophesie to which they do well that they take heed , as to a light that shineth in a dark place till the day dawn , and the day star arise in their hearts . Paul to the Romans , That faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God To the Corinthians , that the minds of the Jews were blinded , for until this day the vail remaineth on their hearts untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament , which vail is taken away in Christ. To the Galathians , that as many as walk according to this Rule , * peace shall be on them , and Gods Israel . To Timothy , that evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived , willing him to continue in the things he had learned and been assured of knowing of whom he had learnt them , and that from a childe he had known the holy Scriptures , which were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesut , that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God , and is profitable for Doctrine , Reproof , Correction , Iastruction in Righteousness , that the man of God might be perfect throughly furnished to all good works . To the Ephesians , that they were no more strangers and forrainer● , but fellow-citizens with the Saints , and of the houshold of God , and built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone . God forbids to adde to his Word , he commandeth and threatens to adde Plagues to them that so do . Paul sayes , Let him be accu●sed who ever brings another Gospel then that he had preached to the Galathians , though the Apostles themselves , or an Angel from heaven . Christ asked the Pharisees , Why they made Gods Commands void by their Traditions . Paul sayes , He in a figure transferred to himself , and to Apollo the things that he had wrote to Corinth , that none of them might think of either of them above that which he wrote of them as meerly Ministers , by whom they beleeved , and not be as they were very apt to be pu●t up for one of them against the other , and glorying in man. God bids seek not to Wizzards that peep and mutier but to himself , his Law and Testimony . The Berean searched the Scriptures daily whether the things were so or no the Apostles preached . Apollos was mighty in the Scriptures , and as mightily confounded the Jews , proving thereby that Jesus was Christ. Paul said no other things then what Moses and the Prophets said should come . John Baptist came for a witness to bear witness of the light , that all through him might beleeve . God sayes , If the Israelites observe not all the words of the Law written in that Book of Deuteronomy , he would make their Plagues wonderful . Christ expounds to his Disciples all the Scriptures in Moses and the Prophets concerning himself , bids , Search the Scriptures as testifying of him . Paul sayes , Whatsoever was written afore time was for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope . He says , To write the same things to the Church is safe . John sayes he writes his Epistles to the Saints that their joy might be full . Therefore the outward Letter of the Scripture is the onely Rule of all faith , and Divine worship , and not the Light and Spirit of Christ ye only call to , nor any internal Revelation whatsoever , ficta vel facta . In which of all these Scriptures the Title and Authority of the only most perfect standing Rule of Faith , Life , and Worship , is either expresly , or by any true , mediate , much more any immediate consequence ascribed to the Scriptures who can finde but he 's that not blinde ? There is but one of all the places , viz. Gal. 6.16 . where that term Rule is at all expressed , by which as I have said and shewed above , is not at all intended the Scriptures , but Christ the Light , and his Spirit ; and some of them mention expresly neither the term Scripture , nor Rule , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and such as have in them terms equivalent to that of the Rule , neither express nor imply at all the Letter of the Scripture , as that of Psal. 19.7 , 8. and that of Isa. 8.19 , 20. and that of Rom. 10 , 17. and that of Eph. 2.19 , 20. where by the Law , and Commandment , and Testimony , and Statutes of the Lord , rejoicing the heart , converting the soul , enlightening the eyes , making wise the simple , is expressed the Lamp and the Light , Prov. 6.23 . and by the Word , in the hearing of which Faith comes , the Word hid in the heart , nigh in the heart and mouth to hear and do , Psal. 119.105 . Deut. 30.12.14 . Rom. 10.8 . The Law in the heart , Isa. 5 1.7 . Psal. 37.31 . The Law in the mind , which the Law of sin and death in the members wars against , Rom. 7.23 . The Law of the spirit of life which is in Christ the life and light , whose life is the light of men , that made Paul free from the other , Rom. 8.2 . Which light shines in the darknesse that is in our very Doctors hearts , but the darkness comprehends it not . The Statutes of God , and Judgements to be put into the minds of men , according to the tenour of the New Covenant , typified by the Old , where the Statutes were with Pen and Ink written , and engraven on Tables of stone ; and by the Foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , Eph. 2. Christ the Light ( as is above declared ) and not the Writing , and Letter , and Text , in which the internal truth is but ad extra declared ; and by that sure Word of Prophesie ' , 2 Pet. 1. not the Scripture , but somewhat within , as I shall shew more abundantly by and by ; and by Moses and the Prophets , Luke 16. Writings within , as I shall shew anon : All which were , and were the onely perfect , pure , right , inalterable , standing Rule , long before any external Text or Letter was , and have not ceased so to be by the coming in of the outward writing , with which they are since clothed upon , nor yet have surrendered their ancient Authority of being the onely Rule by which all speakings , and writings , and doctrines are to be tryed ; nor resigned up that their Right to the Writing , that testifies to their suprrmacy , veracity , and dignity above it self to this very day . Nor have they submitted themselves , that were once the chief Judge and Rule for the tryal of Truth , to be now tryed , ruled over , judged , sentenced , and ultimately determined , authoritatively to be received or rejected as true or false , of God , or the Devil , Divine or diabolical Delusion , Enthusiasme , Figment , Fanaticism , and what nick-name men lift to stile them by in their learned lusts , by the fallible Transcriptions , Translations , and Expositions of miserably mistaking men , in which ways only and meerly , some of that Scripture that was of old written by holy men , as the spirit moved them , is transmitted downward to these modern ages . And as for those Texts that do make express mention of the Scriptures and outward Writings of the Apostles , and of Moses and the Prophets , and the Old Testament , as Iohn 20. ult . Luke 1.3 , 4. 16.29 . Acts 1.1 . 2 Cor. 3.24 . 2 Tim. 3.14 , 15 , 16. do , there is not the least considerable , much less any cogent , necessary , or immediate consequence in any of them , to conclude the outward Letter of the Scriptures to be the onely , most perfect standing Rule , Touchstone for all Truth to be tryed by , so exclusively ( as I.O. states them ) Spiritus verbi Luminis cujuscunque tandem generis interni , Revelatienis , &c. Of all inward Spirit , Light , Word , or Revelation of what sort soever ; For what 's the vail's being over the Iews hearts in the reading of the Old Testament , which Vail is done away in turning to Christ the Light , to evince any such matter ? Doth it not rather evidence the very contrary ? For if the Old Testament , which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Letter written with Ink or Pen , or engraven on stones , is as a Vail over the hearts of such as read it as the Iews do , of whom I.O. sayes , pag. 236. They read it without the administration of the Spirit , so that its a dead Letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls . Which ▪ Vail is to be , and is done away no otherwise then in Christ the Light , and by turning to the Lord that Spirit , ( as Paul sayes it is ) then doth it not rather appear that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Letter written and engraven outwardly is not the onely most proper standing Rule ; but Christ's Light , the Spirit , and the measure , and manifestation thereof within , given to every man to profit withal ? And what though Paul to Timothy doth commend the inspired Scripture , ( if yet we shall take that for the outward Writing ) as profitable to make the man of God , who onely knows how to use it wisely , more and more wise , and to furnish him perfectly to exhort , &c. and every good work , against the gainsayers ? as I have shewed above that I deny not the outward Scripture so to be to such a one : And what though Christ saies in order to escaping the place of torment , Let men hear Moses and the Prophets , if yet we shall take Moses and the Prophets for their outward Writings ? And what though John sayes Christ did more then he wrote of him , ( as well he might ; For Matthew , Mark , and Luke wrote many things that he did not , and others wrote other matters , that were written by none of these ) What though he doth write that his writings were that the Saints might believe that Christ was the Son of God , and believing might live through his Name , and that their joy might be full ; i.e. That encrease might be to them of Faith and Joy : see 1 Joh. 5.13 . does their being useful and profitable , and penn'd for the same common end , as the Light is given for in the conscience , conclude them by such an immediate consequence as J.O. conceives , to be design'd and appointed by God to be canoniz'd and established into the onely Canon , into the sole standing Rule and Standard for all things of Faith , Manners and Worship to be tryed by : so that nothing can or may safely be believed , done or practised in obedience to God , or acceptable to him , without particular and expresse recourse first had unto the Scriptures ? If this be good and immediate consequence of J.O. viz. the Scriptures and Letter hath the same common end with the Spirit and Light ; and is useful and profitable , comfortable and serviceable , as the other is , though not so much . Therefore the Scripture or Letter , is the onely most perfect , standing-Rule universally for all truth to be tryed by , the onely Canon for men to come to , whereby to be rectified in Faith , Life , Worship , and all Obedience . Then at least must T.D. J. O's . joint Antagonist against the Qua. and the Truth be judg'd a meer jugling Disputant , and shufling Sophister , if he own it as any other then a non sequittar , [ unless he will rather chuse to join with me here against J. O. in denying of this consequence , and against himself too , as to his asserting the Scripture to be the Rule ] for as much as when 't was urged against him in the same kind , at the Dispute ( but in a way of much more necessary consequence , then J. O's . crooked Conclusion comes in by ) to the defect of Scripture-Canon , as they call it , in its integrals , on this wise : If there were other inspired Scriptures that are not bound up in your Bibles , as useful and profitable , and written to the same end with those you have , then they were as much a Rule as those ye have . But there were , &c. in proof of which minor instance was given in the first Epistle to the Corinthians , mentioned in the first we have , 1 Cor. 5.9.11 . Where Paul sayes , I wrote unto you in an Epistle , not to keep company with Fornicators , &c. and now have I written to you not to keep company , &c. By which it seems both Epistles , one of which is not in the now Bible , were written by the same Apostle , to one and the same end . T.D. Replyes to this effect , see p. 26 , 27. of his first Pamph. I deny your Consequence . Sermons , Religious Discourses have the same common end with the written Scriptures , yet the Letter onely are our standing Rule . And p. 27. All that was written by holy men , and preserved for our use , is not therefore our standing Rule . And two bald Reasons is rendred in the same page , viz. Because God intended these that are bound up in our Bibles , but not the rest , neither such as are lost ; for had he intended those so lost , Poovidence would have watcht over them as over the rest ; nor such as are by his providence preserved neither , if not in our Bibles . And pag. 17. of T. D's . second Pamph. Suppose ( quoth he ) we had the signs faithfully recorded , ( i. e. in our Bible where they are wanting ) yet were they not our Rule because God did not give order for them ? He hath assured us as much as is sufficient to create and encrease Faith. And pag. 18. If you say ( as you seem to do ) if they all were done to the same end , then being written , they must reach the same end . I deny your consequence , [ quoth he ] the difference lyes in God's Arbitrary Dispensation . Now if T.D. deny the consequence of the Qua. which is two fold clearer , and more cogent then I. O's . when they say all Scriptures written by inspiration , and preserved for our use to this day , are a Rule to us as much as any of them are , whether bound up , or not bound up by Stationers in our Bibles . Then how much more must he side with me in denying J. O's far fetch 't consequence , though J.O. calls it immediate , [ unlesse he will be denied justly for a daubing deceiver ) when J.O. argues thus , viz. The Scriptures are useful , profitable , and written to the same good ends and purposes , as the Light , Spirit , and Word of God ; Therefore the Scriptures , the Letter , and not the inward Light , Spirit , Word , or any internal Revelation at all , are the only most perfect , standing Rule of all things , in matter of Faith , Life , Doctrine , Worship , &c. But I have reason to suspect and fear , that Night-Birds of a Feather , however they clash and thwart one another , and fall out among themselves in the dark , yet will fall in , flock , and flye all together in the face of the Light , rather then seem to side therewith against each other , and that by some sillycome-senceless secundum quid or other , they 'l seem to qualifie their more then seeming confusions if they can . Nevertheless , let them agree as they please , I may safely make bold before all , but partial , prejudiced persons , to deny J. O's . consequence , and put my self under T. D's Patronage in so doing , who denyes the same , ( save onely that its much more sound and cogent when used to him ward by the Qua. and indeed so it fares and falls out with my two Antagonists , I.O. and T.D. that though they join to carry on the same Cause against the Qu. improving their Wits to-patch up what proofs they can in the points wherein they oppose them ; yet their witnesses agree so little with each other , and within themselves , that what either of them asserts , is for the most part overturned , if not by the individual party so asserting , as it often is , yet at least by the other of them , one where or other , in such wise , that had some wiser man then my self had the management of this matter and work against them , that is now under my hands , I see so much [ though minding matter more then method , I am carryed to the confutation of them into sundry other wayes of partly positive , and partly polemical Discourse intermingled among my Animadversio●s , Examinations , and comparings of their sayings ] that he need go no further then T.D. and I.O. to fetch matter wherewith to con●ute I.O. and no further then J.O. and T.D. to confute T.D. I conclude then my Reply to the routing of the first Rank , and cashiering the first Classe ▪ of J. O's . Scriptures , urged in proof of the Scriptures being the only , most perfect , standing Rule , and it may serve for an answer to T.D. himself too , in T. D's . words to me ( mutatis muta●dis ) p. 20. 1 Pamph. To make the business short , suppose we grant the Scripture to be divinely inspired , to be very useful and profitable , as we do , and to be written for the ends above specified in the Scriptures mentioned ; yet will it not follow that it was intended for the Rule to the Church , much less the only perfect Rule , or Standard of Faith and Life , because God did not give order for ●s so to be , but assured her , before the Scripture was at all , as much as God thought sufficient to create and preserve faith in the Gospel she had , before she had it written in an outward Letter , viz. the inward Light , Word , and Spirit , that was in the beginning , from which the Letter came . And p. 43. to make a Rule [ much more then , the only s●anding Rule exclusively of all other , of all internal Light , Word , Spirit , Revelation , as JO. and T.D. both hold the Scripture to be ] is necessary Gods appointment of a Writing to that end ; to which he did ( and even in the Scripture it appears ) appoint the Spirit , and inward Light and Word , as I shew'd above , but never at all appointed the Scripture it self . And p. 17 , 18. of T. D's . 2 d. Pam. the difference lyes in God's Arbitrary dispensation , who from of old disposed the Light , Word and Spirit alone , to be the Rule , without , and before the Letter , as being far more excellent , and fully sufficient without it , as to the nature and being of a Rule ; but never ordered , intended , designed , appointed , or established the Writing alone as the Rule , as my two Vniversity Antagonists dispute , without , and c●●lusively of the other . And as for the third and fourth Classis of J. O's Scriptures , which seeing they are so near a kin to these of the first , therefore I shall consider them here before those of the second they are of the same kind , so that the same general Answer might satisfie sapienti , cui verbum sat ; but seeing such stress is put on them by J.O. to the stablishing of a wrong Standard , which i● of so great concernment to be stated right , or else all the Building faulters ; I am free to insist a little more particularly on them then else I need to do . They contain ( as thou sayest J.O. ) commendations of the Scriptures , as to all uses of Religion , both by the practises and precepts of Christ and the Apostles , searching and expounding , proving and trying all things by them themselves , and also commending , and commanding the searching of them , and the trying of all things by them , in and among all others . Rep. That all the places enumerated by thee , do contain any such matter at all , I utterly deny ; for some of those thou citest , as well as sundry of those afore spoken to , neither expresly , nor intentionally relate to the Writing or Scripture , but onely to the Word of God , and the Things , and Truth , and Commands of God written of onely in the Letter ; which things in what Text soever thou find'st them talkt of , thou present'y run'st blundering on in thy wonted blindness , which discerns no difference between the Writing and things written , interpreting them without more ado of the Scripture , as namely , Deut. 28.58 . whereby the words written in that Book , is not meant the Writings , but the Commandmen● therein rehearsed , the Ceremonials and Morals of which they were to observe before that Booke of Deuteronomy was penn'd ; which is a story of Moses his repetition by word of mouth , a little before his death , of such things as he had from the Lord enjoined them to observe ; and some of them God also from his own mouth well-nigh forty years at least before that was penned . Also that in Acts. 26.22 . where Paul sayes he witness●d no other things or truths ( as to the substance and matter of them though the manner was different , the one testifying , de Christo exhibendo , the other exhibito ; one saying they should come , t'other they were come ) then what the Prophets and Moses said should come : Which things Paul could now witness were come , if he had not seen their witness that they should : And what mention is there of the Scripture at all in that Scripture ? Also John 1.7 . where it s said of John Baptist , he was not that Light , but came to bear witness of that light which John Baptist wrote no Scripture at all that I know of , which Light he testified to , was not the Letter or Scripture , but the same the Qua. bear witness to even that measure of its light within , wherewith he inlightneth every man that comes into the world ; so that there is no Scripture mentioned , or so much as meant in that Scripture . Wherever thou seest in thy Concordance the word Scripture written of in the Scripture , thou art ready to think straightway it Concu●r'● , and hath no ●m●l Concordance with thy cause , and where thou findest the Words Rule , Foundation , Law , and Prophets of God , Light , Word , Commands , Statutes , Testimony , Prophesie , and such like , thou as rashly and rawly imaginest the Scripture or meer outward Writing meant and mentioned by them in what ever is predicated of them , and that it makes something for thy b●inde business of the Scriptures being the only standing Rule and Foundation . But alas hoc aliquid verè nihil est , this something is plainly nothing at all to that purpose , for as it makes not a mice toward the proof thereof ( as appears above ) because the Scriptures were written for good ends , and are prefi●●bl● to such and such good uses , unless God had Canonized them as a Rule , so neither doth it that Christ expounded the Scriptures , and that some did search them , and were mightily read in them ( as some are at this day who are supposed to deny them ) to the confounding the Scribes that searched them daily , and therein lookt for life as their only Rule , but never came to him that they might have life , who was the Life and Light they came from but never heard him whom they testified of , that his voice was now to be heard , in whom God who under the Law before his coming spake in his servants the Prophets , speaks under the Gospel , as by his only Son. 'T is true , Abraham , who lived long after Moses , and those Prophets , whose Writings ye have , were born , in that Parable which illustrates a precious truth , that as to the mystery of it lyes yet hid from thee , is brought in by Christ , as saying of the Rich mans brethren by way of prevention of their coming into torment , They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them , if not they 'l not be perswaded by a miraculous message of one to them from the dead : but what i● this to prove what thou here alledgest it for , and more largely inferrest from it , p. 63 , 64 , 65 , 66 , 67. where thou preachest on that Text a Sermon as long as little to thy purpose , improving it and that of 2 Pet. 1.19 . to the utmost , to prove Moses and the Prophets Writings to be the best and most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , on which that , and all faith is immediately to be grounded , and to prove the Scriptures to be that alone , which we are sent to , to be more effectual and sure then either the greatest miracle that ever was , or immediate voice that ever God himself spake by from heaven , and to be the sole Rule and determiner of all Doctrines whether they be Truths , or but cunningly devised fables , which two Texts , together with Isa. 8.20 . how little they evince any such matter , and what is meant in them by Moses and the Prophets , and by that sure World of Prophesie , which thou and thy fellows foolishly affirm to be the Scriptures I shall , God willing , take occasion to examine anon . Three of thy main inartificial Arguments ( as thou truly callest them , p. 50 , 51 , 52 , 56. ) or Testimonies to thy untruth , being by the head and shoulders without either sense or reason wrested from them . Again it is true the Bereans did search the Scriptures whether the things were so as the Apostles spake , who spake nothing but summarily & substantially the same which Moses and the Prophets did say should come ; but what though they did so of their own accord , and their searching was succesful and useful also to the fortifying of the faith they had in the World of Truth , which they received readily not as the word of man , but of God , not as fables , but as truth , it coming to them as to the Thessalonians , not in word only , but in power , and the holy Spirit , and in much assurance , 1 Thes. 1.5 . must it needs follow therefore that the Scriptures were their only Rule of determining the Doctrines whether they were truths or fables , the Word of God , or the word of man , and that their faith and owning that truth was à priori , first , originally and immediately founded ( as thou preachest all faith and repentance must be , page 58.64 . on the Scriptures ; so that if they had not first searched the Scriptures , and there found a congruity of the things with the old Writing , they neither would nor could have beleeved or received the truth ? thus thou and most of thy faternity , foolishly fancy , but look again and ye will finde it far otherwise , for howbeit they searched the Scriptures , and did commendably and nobly therein , and were commended as more noble in that then they of Thessalonica ( who yet are commended as noble , excellent , and exemplary as the other in receiving the Word in much affliction , with joy , as Gods , and not mans word , though , it seems , not so serious in searching the Scriptures as these , 1 Thess. 1.5 , 6 , 7 , 8. ) and were not a little confirmed in their faith begotten before , yet they first received the Word with all readiness of minde as hundreds do at ths day , as preacht to them by word of mouth , from the Apostles , the witness of God being reached , and answering to the truth of it in their hearts , in which they were noble as Thessalonica was , yet more noble by how much they were unwearied and uncessans in seeking to be more and more gradually , and groundedly growing in fuller assurance of the truth , as many are at this day , who first beleeving and receiving the Word with joy and readiness , do not sleight ( as ye suppose ) but à posteriori being in the faith Timothy more seriously and singly then your selves see into the Scriptures , that being already brought into the things the Scriptures write of , through patience and comfort thereof have hope , according to that other Scripture of thy coating , Rom. 15.4 . as yourselves cannot have any more then the Scribes , who stand studying and sraping with your own Animal understandings before ye are ceme to walk in the Light and Spirit they witness too , and came from . But what 's all this more then just nothing at all to prove the Scripture to be the only standing Rule of Faith and Life , which is asserted of it to the evincing it to be the Word ? Nay if your eyes were in your head , ye might see of your selves [ O ye Studentall , more than truly Prudential searchers of the Scriptures ] that the Word the Apostles preached , and the Scripture , which we confess truly testifies thereof , are two distinct things , and in no wise one and same individual as ye would make them , if ye look no farther then the present Text in hand ; for in that he sayes they received THE WORD with all readiness of minde , and searched the SCRIPTVRE whether the things were so ; it imports to any but the blind searchers of the Scripture that the word they received was one thing and the Scripture they searched about the truth of it was another . Again it is true , and not to be denied , but Apollo an eloquent Iew was from his being well versed therein before he came to own the Light , mighty in the Scripture , and learned in the Letter so as mightily to confound the Gospel gain saying Iews thereby , when once he came to obey it himself , though yet there was a tradesman and his wife further grounded in the Gospel , and learned in the light , than himself , who was beyond them in the Letter , of whom he was not ashamed [ as our Vniversities Literatists are at this day , to learn of women , that know more of Gospel mysteries than they do ] to stoop to be instructed in the way of God more perfectly , but how little this proves the Scripture to be the only standing Rule , for which end , I.O. cites it , he that is blinde cannot see , but others cannot chuse , when as he that was so well skilled in the Scripture [ had that been the only Rule ] that he could have instructed Aquila and Priscilla about the Letter , with which suo sejugulaus gladio , he slew the Letter-learned Iews , as it were with their own sword , was not so clear in his understanding of the Truth , Way , Gospel , Spirit , Word , and Light of God [ which is indeed the only standing inalterable Rule for ever as it ever was ] but that he had need to be Regulated and Rectified therein by such as in meer Scripture all knowledge were as inferiour , as they were superior to him in spiritual understanding . Moreover what makes it to the proof of the Scripture to be the only standing Rule exclusively of the Light and Spirit , that Paul sayes to write the same things to the Philippians , by which its questionable whether he 〈…〉 something to them before , which is lost , and not bound up in your Bibles , nor canoniz'd into your Canon ) was safe for them ? As much as if he had said nothing at all ; for nothing at all is that to I. O's . purpose , nor yet that of Iohn saying , These things I write unto you , that your joy may be full , which J O. cites to the same end . And true it is , Christ expounded the Scriptures to his Disciples , as he did also his own Parables that he uttered by word of mouth amongst them and the mixt multitude toge●her , and opened their understandings also ( as he does theirs that walk in his light that they might understand them ; but where is the immediate cogent consequence from hence , to the conscience of any , that the Letter or Scripture is the onely most perfect standing Rule of all Faith , Truth , holy life , Doctrine , Divine Worship , &c. as I.O. states it to be , and T.D. also exclusively of the internal Light , Word , Spirit , &c. And what though we should grant you , that Christ sayes to the Scribes , Search the Scriptures ? Well , he might , for they testifie of him as the life , whom they never came to for it , who if they had known either the Scriptures aright they so search't in , and scribled about , or the Power of God , they could not have erred from the knowledge of him in his Light , as they did , Matth. 22.29 . We say the same to you Schollars , that think you study and know the Scriptures more then any men , as Christ to them , and as I.O. to all by way of command ( whereas some can't read it ) in his Title-page , to flourish his Frontispiece and vent his vindication , pro Scripturis , more then ought else , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Search the Scriptures , for they testifie of Christ the Light , the Word , that Spirit , Way , Life , Truth we talk of , they send ye to the same Light , and inward Word in the heart , as the Rule to walk by , as the Qua. do , and as Christ said of them , Ioh. 5.46 , 47. having told them they needed no other to accuse them , then Moses in whom they trusted ; Had ye believed Moses , ye would have believed me , for he wrote of me ; but if ye believe not his Writings , how should ye believe my word ? So say I of you , Ye need no other witness against you , though ye have another ( even the Light within , which ye despise ) then the Letter in which ye trust ; for did you believe the Letter , ye would believe in the Light , for it writes of the Light the Qua. call ye to , and write of ; but if ye believe not the Writing ye so write for , how shall ye believe in the light ? Howbeit when all 's done , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being both the Indicative and Imperative Mood will as well bear it , so the Context doth much more clear it , that the Verb is rather indicative of their doting doings ; then imperasive of their duty ; and is rather to be rendred , ye search , then search ye the Scripture and contains rather matter of condemnation of them for that profitable deal of Do they made in their busie minds about the outward Scriptures , while in the mean time they heeded not Gods own voice , nor regarded the inward words abiding in them , then either commendation of their great , fruitless pains that way , or commendation of the Scripture to them to search , or commandment of them ( who were too mad already for the Scripture , as their grand Idol , receiving it as thou faist , p. 236. with the honour and veneration due to God , and his living word alone ) to search therein . Yea verily , both that verse and those about it , do all consist of matter of sad complaint against them for their ever-reverencing the Scripture , and negecting to receive , or rather refusing and rejecting the Word of Life it self to any single eye ; ye have , saith Christ to them of the Father , neither hear his voice at any time , nor seen his shepe , Joh. 47. and 38. Ye have not his word abiding in you , vers . 39. Ye search the Scriptures [ ye look there often ] for in them ye think ( but mistake your selves ) to have eternal life , and ( true enough ) they are they which testifie of me , as the way to life ; and ( yet ) ye will not come to me that ye might have the life . On this wise doth Christ rather expostulate with them , for their ignorance and negligence of the Word , then either command or commend any searchings of the Scriptures . And as to the second Classis of Texts cited by the J.O. in proof of the Scriptures , being the only standing Rule , in which Texts all additions whatsoever to the written Word of God are expresly rejected : I answer , what though God doth reprove , condemn , threaten to plague and curse such as adde to his Word , bring any other Gospel then what Paul preached , make void his Commands by their Traditions , enjoyn men to seek not to such as peep and mutter , but to the Lord himself , & Paul would not have the Corinthians think of him and Apollo above what he writes of himself and him , as men only by whom as means they beleeved , which is the summe of the seven Scriptures by thee produced to that purpose ? what proof at all is there in all this such a way ? it is true enough there must be no adding to the Word , Gospel , Commandement , Testimony of God , or alterings , or varyings , or detractings therefrom in a tittle ; but is any of this intended of the outward Writing , Letter , or Scripture which are not that Word , Gospel , Commandement , but only declare this and other things concerning it ? Is the Scripture , that only set , firm , fixt , standing Rule that may neither be augmented nor diminished on pain of Plagues and cursing as ye say it is ? then tell me , 1. How much Scripture or Writing hath been added to the five Books of Moses since Deut. 4.2.12.32 . was written , wherein it is said , Ye shall not adde to the word I command you , neither shall you diminish from it ? and since that of Prov. 30.6 was written , where it is said , Adde thou not unto his Word lest he reprove thee , and thou be found a liar : And since , Isa. 8.20 . where it is said , To the Law , and Testimony : And since that Gal. 1.8 , where it is said , Let him be accursed that brings other then we have preacht , though we or an Angel from heaven ? 2. Whether were the Prophets and Apostles , that have added so many books since those prohibitions , justly reproveable and accursed as Lyars ? 3. If ye say nay they were not lyars , nor to be reproved , nor accursed , then tell me as to the measure and bounds , and close of your Canon , which ye suppose to be the Revelation , why he that by the same Spirit moving shall in writing reveal the same truths now , is accursed , reproved , plagued for adding to the Word and Gospel upon the account of Johns saying , Rev. 22.18 . If any man shall adde unto these things , God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this booke , any more then Iohn himself who added his Scripture and Revelation after Pauls Epistle to the Galathians , or Paul who added his Scriptures after Isaiahs , or Isaiah and the other Prophets , who added theirs after Solomon , or Solomon that added his Writings after ●●s●s hi● inhibition in Deuteronomy ? 2. Beleeve it that the Scripture is not that thing , nor standing Rule , to which no more must be added , and from which no new Scripture may be diminished on pain of cursing and plagues , but the Word , Doctrine , Gospel , Commandement , Law , Truth told in it , to which cursed be he that addes another , or any new Word , Gospel , Doctrines , &c. or detracts a Tittle from that : And so John sayes , If any adde to these things , and take away from the words of this Book , God shall adde plagues , and take away his part out of the book of life , and from the things written in this book , meaning that particular Writing he was now in hand with , not if any man shall write any more Scripture with so high a pretence as by Revelation from the Spirit , or loose , or shut out any of the Scriptures , that are already written by inspiration , from the Canon ; for if he had meant so , then as brisk as ye are to breath out Threatnings and Plagues , and Curses to such as pretend to write any thing by inspiration , revelation , or motion from the holy Spirit , since the dayes of the complearing and closing of your Canon ( as you call it ) which you count from Iohns writing his Revelation ; though ye are far from adding any inspired Scripture to the Bible , but only such Scripture as is the fruit , figment , and imagination of your own hearts , which thou confessest to be the Fountain of all that other men that are not Apostles ( as ye say ye are not do deliver p. 9. not daring to pretend to the infallible guidance of the infallible Spirit in your Ministry , yet yee 'l not scape the taking your names out of the Book of Life , and from the good things written in the Revelation for your fault of taking away , detracting and diminishing from the Scriptures , for ye exclude from your Canon very much of that inspired Scripture that was written , some of which is extant at this day too , or hath been shewed before . But considering the nature and true being of your guilt , I confess in this case of varying from the Rule ( if that were the onely standing Rule ) of the outward Scripture , should be found to be much more in the Ablative , than in the Dative Case . But of this more hereafter . These are J.Os. inartificial Arguments or Testimonies of Scripture used by him as mediums of artificial ones that may be drawn from thence , of which Scriptures he affirms that they are as commonly cited , so already vindicated à nos●●i , Theologis by our Divines from exceptions of Papists , and others , that hee need not insist any more on them to name them , of which say I , as he , Communiter citantur , nonproprie , they are commonly , but not properly cited , but not yet vindicated from the exceptions of all . I shall now come to consider his more Artificial Arguments drawn ●rom some of these , and some other Scriptures by the Cart Ropes of J.Os. Carnal Reasonings in proof that the inward Light , Word , Spirit , and its Revelations are not at all , but the outward Letter , Text , Writings , Scriptures are only and altogether the standing Rule to the Church , and all men of all Truthss , Doctrines , and things , that are to be done , beleeved , tried , or determined in point of Gods worship , and our obedience . J. O s. Arg. 1. The first is on this wise , Ex. 3. s. 28. Si Revelatio , &c. If the Revelation of the will of God in the Scripture be so perfect , compleat , and every way absolute that there is no need of any other Revelation by the Spirit and Light within , Enthusiasm , Heavenly breathing * discsurses with Angels fained , or true to instruct us in the knowledge of God , 〈…〉 in order ●o the attaining eternal life , then its plain that all those wayes and means of knowing God and his will , which the Fanaticks fain to be the means thereof , are uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , and in no wise necessary thereunto , and therefore to be rejected and detested . But it s so , &c. Therefore , &c. Rep. Oh full of all fallacy , as well as falsity , folly , and blindness , in the things of God , of whom I may truly say ( Et si non cas●etamen cause thou art not so little honest in it , but thou art well-nigh as much crafty to hide , what thou canst , the dishonesty of what thou holdest , not only from the Qua. as thou thinkest in the Latine language , but also from all that would handle thee for thy ill handy-work by thy dark discoursing in words of a double and doubtful reference and signification , that thou mayest the more privily pervert the right wayes of the Lord , and prepagate thy perverse Propositions the more securely to the prejudice of them , * what means else thy foisting in of that foolish phrase quae simulant fanatici , by the inserting whereof thou mayest either intend thus , viz. that all wayes that are fained by the Qua. are unprofitable , unnecessary , and to be rejected and detested , and so creep thy neck out of the collar , and shelter thy self from that censure of falshood thou fore-sawest would else befall the minor ; for meer fained mediums of knowing God , and his will wherever found are to be rejected as useless , unnecessary , and no less then detestable indeed that is true enough , who doubts it ? but then withall how Serpent-like wouldest thou hereby subtilly insinuate it into the younger sort , to whose use thou devotest this thy peece of dotage , under that Vnive s●y vendible Title of Theological determinations , Theses , or Apologetical exercitations , pro S●ripturis , as if the Qua. professed means were but a fained Light and Spirit , as if thou foughtest against nought but the Qua. fictions , and not any true internal Light , or Spirit of God , or heavenly Revelations , or inspirations , but only such meer imaginary , spiritual Divine motions and notions as the Qua. fain or falsely fancy so to be . Whereas no figmentitions matters are found , formented , or sought for by the Qua. to be the Rule , but only the true Revelations , Light , and Spirit of God himself within the heart . Or else thou mayest intend thus as thy words express [ that forenamed clouding clause being excluded ] viz. That the Scriptures alone make such an absolutely perfect Revelation of Gods will , that there is no need at all of any other Revelation by the Spirit and Light of God within , which the Qua. affirm to be useful and needful to instruct in the knowledge of God and his will to the attainment of life eternal , but those are uncertain , perillous , unnecessary means of knowing our duty , and so to be rejected and detested ; in which way understanding thy minde , there is so much the less fallacy indeed , but the more falsely , even so much as amounts to little less then great blasohemy and so thy minor is to be denied with a witness , ex duobus malis & absurdis hisie unum saltem est elegondum , utrum horum mavis accipe ; if the first which is fallacy and foolery , it s the least and the best , yet too bad , if the last which is falshood and blasphemy , it s so bad that its worse then nought , yet judging by thy undertaking to prove thy minor , which else were true and needing no proof , thou intendest the Letter , which is the greater of the evils , I enter the lists with thee about that , and deny utterly thy minor , which thou proceedst in proof of by man , particular confiderations , viz. 1. Of the Author of the Scriptures , namely , God from whom ( sayest thou ) Nothing can come that is imperfect any way , much less in respect of that end to which he decrees any work - J.O. from a perfect voluntary cause , nothing but what is perfect is to be expected , for nothing could hinder God , being willing to reveal his will , from revealing it perfectly , but either because he could not , which is not consistent with his infinite Wisdome and Omnipotency , or because he would not , which in no wise agrees with his goodness and grace , therefore he hath given out a perfect Revelation of his will. Reply . This is the first medium whereby thou seem'st to thy self Artificially to have proved the minor of thy first Ar●eficial Argument for the Scriptures being such an onely , absolutely perfect Rule and Revelation of God and his Will , that there 's now no need of any other way of Revelation either of him or it ; but all else , whatsoever by his Spirit and Light within , as in order to the knowing of God , his Will , and our duty to him , and our obtaining eternal life , beside the Scriptures , are superfluous , uselesse , needlesse , unprofitable , fictitious , and to be rejected as such , with abhorrency and detestation . And this minor of thy Prosyllogism , should haue been thy expresse Conclusion in thy last Argument ; instead whereof ( being likely ashamed to infer it in its proper terms , they are so fordid , fottish , false , foolish , blinde , brutish , beastly , blasphemous , grosly detestable , and abominable ) thou entailest a conclusion at the tail of it , which is not contradicted by any but aliud a negato , quite another thing then that which is denyed , yea even the same that we and all other men own , viz. That God hath given out a perfect Revelation of his Will : Which who doubts of ? Who denies but that God gives out his will certainly , sufficiently to all men ? But whether that Revelation of his will be made to all men by a meer Letter without , so certainly , perfectly , at this day , that in order to knowing and doing it by every man savingly , his Light and Spirit within is superfluous , needlesse , unnecessary , uncertain , and no less then fictitious and odious to assert needful , which is the lye thou labourest to defend ; or by his Light , Word , and Spirit within , certainly and perfectly , sufficiently to every individual , in order to his doing his own duty , without an outward Letter or Writing ( as it was before any Writing was , and is still where no such Writing is , and no less so , where such Writing is also , which is the truth the Qua. maintain against thee ) this is the Question between thee I.O. and the Qua. which thou rovest and ramblest from , making Premises , which pretend to have Promises in them of proving thy absurd Opinion , and then concluding at Random that which i● nihil ad Rhombum , just nothing at all to thy purpose , insomuch that as an old Cardinal that had been long absent from Rome , going once to the Election of a Pope , and seeing such shuffling , and patching , and and shifting , and canv●sing ' , and daubing doings in a business of such moment , as the choice of the infallible Chair-man for the whole Church , said no more but Siccine eliguntur Pontifices Romani ? and so took his horse and rode away turning his back upon Rome , resolving never to see it more ; So seeing how little Logical the Theological Disputations of our Vniversity Doctors in Divinity are , and what pinching and cutting , and curtailing , and serpentine twining and turning things upside down , and shifting and shuffling to shut out the plain truth , as held out to them by honest Country Qua. and to escape the force of the two edged sword of the Spirit or Word of God from wounding their hairy Scalp , what moping and mincing and mangonizing there is among them , who having left off to walk by Gods right Rules cannot walk well , nor keep close to their own wrong Rules neither , is it enough to make any well-meaning , honest-hearted , Countrified Schollars , that have long discontinued from the Vniversities , ashamed and sorry , and sick to see such sorry doings at the Nursing Mothers , and to say Siccine disputant Academici nostrates ? Do our Modern Doctors dispute thus at the Vniversities ? surely wee 'l never look after them more , nor send our Sons thither to learn Logick or train them up there to know honestly and uprightly , and rightly how to reason , much less to make them Ministers of the Gospel . But to let the illegitimacy of the conclusion pass , and suppose it to have been expressed in its own due Terms , let 's see how it will follow from those premises he infers it from that the Letter without the Light and Spirit within ( Memorandum still that he stiles those ( most blasphemously ) uncertain , perillous , unprofitable , and in no wise necessary means of knowing Gods will , and our duty and of coming to life , and such as are to be rejected and detested as fictitious and counterfeit ) is the onely perfect Rule of Revelation of Gods will any more then from the self same premises , it will follow contrarily to him that the Light and Spirit within , are the only perfect , certain , sufficient Rule of Revealing Gods will without the Letter or Scripture without . Surely had I.O. been Magister Avtis , his Arts-master in this his Arteficial Argument , he would have left it out altogether , and not have urged it , as he doth to the prejudice of his cause , for it doth him ten times more detriment then advantage . For whereas it is generally concluded among you all , and by you two I.O. and T.D. my present Antagonists in particular as much by any * ( thoug● yet you both vilifie the the said inward Light what ye are able under the names of natural , obscure , darks , dim , low , and to salvation insufficient principles , and means of the Revelation of his will * imagination , figment , Nescio quid , nihil , meer dictates of our own conscience , blinde , and corrupt ) that God declares , and reveals himself , his Soveraign Power , Authority , Righteousness , Holiness , good and evil , many sins and duties , and several divine Attributes , and that indispensible moral obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his Law , by some Light from himself and principles of conscience , and his own voyce therein , and those motions that are inlaid by his own hand in mens mindes , and that they make a Revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , and shew the work of his own Law written in mens hearts , and are able to plead their own divine original , and discover their Author from whom they are , and in whose name they speak , even Gods , without any other witnesses , further evidence , or reasoning without the advantage of any considerations , but what are by themselves supplied without the least contribution , or assistance from without . Whereas I say all this is granted by you of the inward Light we plead for to be a ●er●ain , profitable , perfect , sufficient Rule of knowing God , and means of revealing of his will to us , and our duty to him in order to life without a Letter , against you who plead the Scripture and Letter only to be so without the inner Spirit and Light ( to say nothing how in effect the cause is little less than wholly , or rather is wholly given us by T.D. and thy self too , in those many magnifications of the Light within , as effectual without any thing but it self [ and therefore without the Scripture without ] to reveal God and his will , and sins , and duties , and good and evil , and that moral obedience due from us to his moral Law ) is not thy own Argument for the propounded perfection of the Scriptures as the only all-sufficient Rule , ab earum Authore , Deo scilicet , à quo nihil imperfectum u●o modo , multò minus respectu finis cui opus quodcunque destinat procedere potest , as , yea far more cogent and conclusive to the inward Light and Spirits being the said Only All-sufficent perfect Rule , then to the outward letters being so ? And ●iththou settest thy self so preposterously to prove the said perfection of the only Rule , as proper and peculiar to the Letter , may I not much more properly take thy own words , and therewith ( ad hominem ) argue that the name of the only Rule is the peculiar Right and Priviledge of the inward Light and Spirit ! As thou then sayest , Jam vero perfectionem dictam Scripturarum , &c. so tuo te jugulans gladio , say I , Jam vero perfectionem , dictam lucis & Spiritus interni probamus ab ●orum Authore , Deo scilicet , &c. the said perfection of the only Rule , and way of Revelation of his will , and our duty , as to life , as proper and peculiar to the inward Light and Spirit , and not the Scripture , I prove from their Author , viz. God from whom nothing imperfect in any way can come , much less in respect of that end , to which he hath designed any work . And if thou say , as thou doest , and I deny it not in a more remote sense , God is the Author of the Scripture , let me ask thee , is he not much more immediately the Author of his Light and Spirit in the hearts of holy men , and of that measure thereof that is , and strives and shines in the hearts of all men from the greater degree of which in the Prophets and Apostles hearts all the other Scripture ( except that little , Exod. 20. and Dan. 5.25 , 26 , 27. ) came through their hands as subordinate Authors , then he is of the Letter which issued from him ( non nisi mediantibus manuscripteribus ) more mediately and no otherwise at first , but by means of men writing as moved , and at this day no more immediately then by the pens and presses of fallible men Transcribing and Printing , Re-printing , Translating , and copying them out of they know not what corrupted Copies , not so near as at second or third , but perhaps at the hundreth hand from the first Penman ? And seeing God is the sole immediate Author of the Light and Spirit within , which is not alterable , flexible , &c. at the wills of Criticks , as thou confessest the Hebrew Text is , and as he is not of the Letter , which is both Copied , Canonized and Authorized ( as ye have it ) by men only as the Rule , i● it follow ( as secundum Ye it doth , not Me ) ab Authore remoto from the remote Author of it God , from whom nothing imperfect can come , that the Letter is the only perfect Rule and Revelation of Gods will , will it not much more forcibly follow from Gods being the only and immediate Author of the inner Light and Spirit , that they are the Only sufficient Rule , and make a perfect Revelation of his will to the end and purposes aforesaid ? Ob. And if thou say , True ; but those ends and purposes , for which the Light and Spirit within , the Qua. talk of , though useful otherwise , are designed of God , and given to men , are not that they may be the Rule and guide of our way in order unto life , but only that thereby we may the more savingly understand the Letter , which is of God designed , decreed , and authorized to be the only Rule , for so thou expresly saist of the Spirit or Light within , Ex. 4. s. 17. which Topsey-Turvy ●or expediencies sake , I shall here take into consideration , that I may have no more to do with it again , where thy Latine words , Englished , are these , * J.O. Of no inward light whatsoever , although it be saving , is this the use or end , that we should attend to it as the Guide and Rule of our way , but for this end alone is that vouchsafed of God , that by the help thereof , we may the more savingly understand that Rule [ meaning the Scripture ] and the minde of God revealed in it . Reply . I answer , Cujus contrarium verum est , this is as quite contrary a Cob-castle with the heels upwards , and upside downwards , as t is well possible for a man to build , whereby thou makest as thou elsewhere doest in I know not how many places more the Light and Spirit but an instrumental means to bring men to the Letter , that by the Letter they may have Life and be saved ; yea and sometimes the servile instrument of the Letter it self , by which , as by some certain Ministerial Attorny , the Letter Authoritatively , as the cause , doth all the mighty and powerful things that are effected towards mans salvation ; as namely , p. 81. J. O. This light in the Scripture for which wee contend . Reply . But stay there yet a while too J.O. for the Light in the Scripture is that the Quá . contend for against thee , who contendest for the Letter [ if thou well understandest thy self ] against that Light which is declared of in the Letter as shining in the heart ; for the Light in the Scripture is one thing , of which what thou sayest is true , but the Scripture , in which that light is declared and written of is another , as the beaming majesty , brightness , and glorious light of the Sun , that shines through it , is one thing , and the Glass window , in and through which it shines , is another , the Light in the Lanthorn one thing , and the Lanthorn , in which it shines , is another , which Light , that i● in the Letter declared , is that we plead for , and J.O. against , & this J.O. wil see , when he looks over the second time with his eyes open , what with his eyes shut at first he overlookt : Secundae cogitationes saepe meliores . J.O. This light in the Scripture , is nothing but the beaming of the Majesty , Truth , Holiness , and Authority of God , by this it dives , i.e. the Letter by the Light dives into the consciences of men into all the recesses of their hearts , guides , teaches , directs , determines in themin the Name , Majesty and Authority of God. Rep. See how the Light is made the Letters Messenger ; & subordinate Agent ; for By here is not such a By , as is used when the Inferior is said to act by the Authority of the Superior , but the Superior by the subse●viency of the Inferior . Whereas indeed the Letter is but the instrument of the Light and Spirit , whereby the Light & Spirit do supreamly and authoritatively , what ever they do by it at all , & can do without it even what sometimes they do with i● , since it is in being , and where it hath a being ; for the Light , tries , searches , shines shews , reveals , judges , determines , as well without the Letter as with it , and did dive into the heart , where the Letter never was , and direct there before the external literal directory was all ; and yet uses a● its pleasure , the Letter as its instrument , and as a knife to kill , which knife yet as an instrument cannot quicken , but the Letter doth not enter quâ talis ) into the heart at all , and what ere it doth , it doth in subserviency to the Light which is its Author , whose instrument it is to use , but not the Light its instrument at all . Moreover the end of the Letter is but to turn men from the darkness and power of Satan , wherein they dwel , to the Light within them , that shines in the darknes that is also within them , which Light is the power of God , this Act. 26. is said to be the end of Pauls Ministration , which was performed partly by writing , and partly by word of mouth , that so by beleeving in the light and living in it they might not abide in the darkness but have the light of life ; but the end of the Light and Spirit within is not to bring to the Letter , by the Letter we may have the life , for the searchers into the Letter and lookers thereinto for the eternal life , which is Christ , whom the Letter testifies of , never found the life they lookt for there , because they heard not Gods voice , nor cared for his word abiding in them , nor came to Christ the Light and Spirit , that they might have the life , for the letter killeth , but the Light and Spirit gives the life , 2 Cor. 3. And howbeit I deny not the Scripture to be perfect praesertim respectu finis , especially in relation to that end , as J O. sayes , for which it was decreed of God , yet that that end was to be the only guide and rule of men in their way to life I deny , asserting the Light and Spirit still as that which is designed and ordered of God as to that end , and was so from the beginning before any Letter without was at all : And though I own the Scripture still as useful , profitable , effectual , sufficient , and perfectly successful , where used by the man of God in the wisdome of God for the many excellent ends and uses formerly spoken to from , 2 Tim. 2.15 . as being written by inspiration of God , yet I still deny that to be , thereupon , the standing Rule as the Light and Spirit is , because no where so denominated nor designed to be by God , in all the Scripture as I have shewed suffi●iently above in answer to all the Texts whence thou mistakest it so to be ; and because Damnati lingua vocem habet , vim non habet , a Hereticks words are never heeded . I must here make use again of T.D. to defeat I.O. who sayes , p. 27 , 28.43 . of his first Pamph. p. 17 , 18. of his second . That all that was written by holy men and preserved for our use is not therefore our standing Rule , because God did not intend them , nor give order for them to be so , and beside such inspiration and usefulness , to make a Rule is necessary Gods appointment of a writing to that end which appointment the Letter never had from God what ever it had from men ) the difference lyes in Gods arbi●rary dispensation , who assured his Church what was sufficient as to her standing Rule before the Letter was , viz. his his Light and Spirit in which regard though we highly respect the Letter yet we can look upon it , as p. 44. first Pamph. T.D. sayes of some useful things of God with reference to othersome , no more with such regard as the only standing Rule , as we do upon the other . And though with thee I.O. we assert and deny not , but that by the efficacy of the Light and Spirit the Letter is more savingly understood , for the Spirit well knows its own , yea by the Light and Spirit only is the Letter understood and read to profit , and not by that twinckling twilight of thy fidling fancy , for that Ignis fatuus finds little , as to the inside of the letter , but fuell to feed thee in fierce and fiery twittle twattles about the outside sense of it , and the truth of Transcripts and Translations , pidling points , Tittles , & Iota's ; yea who hath known the minde of the Lord , or the things of the Spirit declared in the Letter but the Spirit , and they that live after the Light thereof , and no more after the flesh , to whom only the Spirit only doth reveal them ? yet Monstrum horrendum , cui lumen ademptum , what Scriptureless , lightless , spiritless speeches are these of J.O. who depresses all inward light whatsoever , even that within , the living Word of God within , so much below the meer Letter formally considered as an outward writing , and abstract from these , as to assert them from which the Letter had all the being it hath , and that thousands of years after all these antient Rules and Lights , that are to day , and yesterday , and for ever the same , without the least shadow of alteration , had been famous in the world among all the Worthies from Abel to Moses , to have all their being from God to us ward meerly for the sake of the Letter which was but of yesterday , and as well every day as every way mutable , and that so easily that 't is done in a time in but the turning of a hand , yea by the Transposing of Letters Heb. Points ( and like * as himself asserteth ) as many various lections may be in its several copies , welnigh as lines , and to represent all these , which gave the Letter the being of a certain sub sub unto themselves , as subservient , unto it as if they were of , and for no other use nor end in the world , but to teach men to come ( not to God himself for life ) but to the Letter and to read the Book call'd the Bible , which doth but imminde men , that forget them , to minde the Light and Spirit . I shall therefore only take this Tale of J.O. & , mutatis mutandis , transform it by a transposition of the two subjects thereof , viz. the Light and Letter which I.O. hath mis used and mis-placed each into its proper place , use , and order and so quite quit it here , Nullius literae externae cujuscunque tandem , &c. in plain English thus , Of no external letter whatsoever although the holy Scripture it self which J.O. calls saving is this the use and end that we should attend to it as to the guide of our way and Rule , but to this end only is it graciously granted of God that by means thereof we may perceive to our salvation , that Rule , i.e. the Spirit , Light , and Word of God ad intra , and the minde of God revealed therein . In this Translation is no truth hid that shall not be revealed , nor covered that shall not be known : So having turned J.Os. Babel with the bottome upwards , I shall let it stand and pass on about my business , concluding against thee I.O. in thy own words for the Light and Spirit to be that Rule , thou sayest the Letter is , from its perfection , ab Authore . A causa perfecta , &c. From a perfect voluntary cause nothing but what is perfect can be expected , for nothing can hinder God , being willing to reveal his will , from revealing it perfectly as before the Letter was , so now where the Letter is not , among heathens , by his Light and Spirit , by which thou confessest he reveals it very far in the words forecited , but either because he cannot , which denies his infinite Wisdome and Omnipotency , or because he will not , which agrees not with his goodness and grace . * Therefore God hath and doth give out by his Light and Spirit within a perfect Revelation of his will , so that they consequently must be secundum te by thy own Argument J.O. the only perfect standing Rule ( for there are not two ) so far is the Letter that came from them , from being so , as thy fancy fancies it to be , alone and exclusively of them , as uncertain , useless , needless , perillous and detestable . The second medium by which thou goest about to prove the foresaid conclusion , viz. That the Letter or Scriptures are the only perfect Rule & Revelation of God , his will , and our duty that gives to know him to eternal life , and not the Spirit and light , which as Enthusiasm , dubious , useless figment , &c. are with thee to be detested , is , A naturâ librorum sacrae Scripturae , &c. from the nature of the books of the holy Scripture , which are sayest thou ) those of the Old and New Testament : so ( sayest thou ) the Apostle clearly dilates of the Old Testament ( 2 Cor. 3.14 . in the reading of the Old Testament ) of the New there 's the same reason , vers 6. Now every Testament ( sayest thou ) alluding to , but not quoting , Gal. 3.15 . ) though but a mans , is perfect , and being once confirmed , no man disanulleth , or superaddeth thereunto . Reply . Never did I discern such absolute self-overturnings proceed from a professed Doctor , as do from J.O. thick and threefold in the very cause he prosecutes , whose proofs of his own producing do as frequently confound him , and as fully foil him [ as to the matter he would prove thereby ] as any that can likely be produced against him by those he opposes ; and yet I verily beleeve he speaks the sense wellnigh of the whole Vniversity it self , in which he hath in the late clawing , cringing , corresponding , and climing times , atchieved to become a Chieftane . And that it may appear , le ts reason J.O. hereabout a little with thee , let me ask thee , Is the Gospel , is the New Testament , Letter , Scripture , external Text , and outward Writing , as the Old Testament is ? Is it such a passing , perishing , dark , low , obscure thing , as writing , or graving of Points , Tittles , and Iotaes in Tables of stone ( though with the singer of God himself ) much more it such a mouldring matter ( for so thy self callest the most Original Copies of the external Text of the holy Scripture that ever was in the world , p. 167.164 . and therefore well may I so call thy best bare transcribed copies of it ) as Writings with inke , and stamping with Lamb-black in Roles , and Books , and Papers , and Parchments with press hands and tools , which cannot be preserved so long as from Ezra till now from mouldring without a Miracle ? Is the Gospel , the New Testament no more than such as thou talkest of ? Is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Typography which meer men can take , and turn , and translate , and tumble to and fro , and transcribe , and tear , and dash out , and do what they will with ? Is it outward writings of Epistles , and Recommendations , and Histories , and Letters ( as that of Paul to Philemon ) about private , personal , and domestick affairs , and such like ? Is it not an Epistle of Christ in the table of the heart ? though ministred sometimes by man at the motion of his Spirit ? or if a Writing , yet not with Inke , but with the Spirit of the living God in fleshly Tables of the heart , 2 Cor. 3. Is is as the Old Testament , as all meer writing ad extra only is , whether of old or since Christ , and all outward 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Letter only , that cannot quicken , nor cure , but killeth such as serve , as thou yet doest , in the oldness of it ? Is it not Spirit , Light , and Life ? Is it not the Words of Christ spoken by the Lord himself alone , which are Spirit and Life ? in newness of which the true children of the New Covenant , that are more then Bastards that pretend to it , do serve , and not in the oldness of a letter , or that old way of the old Scribes that came no nearer to Christ the Life , then the outside of the outward Scripture , which was wrote of him ? Is it any of these things ? are not these the best Instruments of the Old Testament foolish Shepherds , wherewith for a time they were suffered to feed , who made the poor of the flock the flock of the slaughter , taken up again since Christ , directly beside the intent of Christ , and such as wrote the later Scriptures , by our Idol Shepherds that leave the flock to starve , so they can be better fed themselves , who are not behinde those of old in feeding , with Gall and Wormwood , the flock of the slaughter , in not pitying but slaying them , and yet holding themselves not guilty ? for which the sword of the Lord is now upon their arm , and upon their right eye , so that their Arm or Power is now to be clean dryed up , and their right eye utterly darkned . Ah poor be-wildred , be-nighted blind-guides of your blindly-guided people , that by custome and tradition from your mouths , who take it so to be by tradition from your Fore-fathers , are now naturallized into a naming the naked dead letter by the name of the living Word of the living God , and the four mis-transcribed and mis-translated Copies of Matthew , Mark , Luke , and Iohns Manuscript of what Christ did in that body wherein he was born at Bethlehem , and dyed at Ierusalem , by the name of the Gospel , and those four bare Books , with the rest of those few that follow fardelled together with them in what fashion men most fancy , and bound up as the Bible sellers please , by the name of the New Testament . So thou talkest I.O. telling the world of the nature of the Books of the Scripture , as ye now have it is this , they are the Old Testament and the New , so thou intendest in thy saying , Sunt autem veteris & novi Testamenti . 1. Citing Paul , who calls the Books of Moses the Old Testament , 2 Cor. 3.14 . as ●●ll well he might , for the Old Testament was indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Letter or Writing writen with Inke and Pen or ingraven outwardly on Tables of stone , and not Spirit or writing with the Spirit of the living God in the fleshly Tables of the heart , as the New is , which the Saints are under , who are therefore said to serve , Rom 7.6 . not in the oldness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the letter , but in the newness , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Spirit . And then secondly , asserting that Novi Testamenti ●adem est rati● , the case is the same between the Old Testament and the New ( which is most false as to the thing in hand and 3. Citing 2 Cor. 3.6 . in proof of it : By which thou shewest thy folly , for thou couldest not have well found out a fitter Text for its disproof , & whether thou , who citest it , for borest to set it down yea or nay for fear its should be seen how far it contradicts what thou citest it for , I will not say , but I am sure a man that is but minded to miss the meaning of it may run and read how that verse subverts the busines thou bringest it in for : yea verily so far is that Apostle , who truly calls the Old Testament by the names of Book , Heb 9.19 . and Letter written & engraven in stones , and such like , from affirming with thee that the case is the same with the new Testament , as to the name and nature thereof , that both in that verse and in the third ve●se also he more then intimates , yea plainly expresses that of the Old and New Testament in that particular more than any divers● est ra●io the case is diverse , yea so far different that he flatly opposes the one to the other , as things that , however agreeing otherwise , viz. in their being both glorious in som degree , though the New in a far greater degree then the other ( as a beautiful picture may agree in respect of beauty , glory , comeliness , and compleat resemblance in some degree with the substantial person , that is it pa●t●rn of ) yet dis●agree in this that the one is Letter , Outward writing , printing , and ingraving , &c. visible and legible by the outward eye ; the other not so , but internal , invisible , spiritual , written with the Spirit in the heart , yea Spirit it self , which while the Letter is dead and killing , is only living , quickning , and giving life . Yea two varying Ministration doth the Apostle make them , not on●y as one is that of death and condemnation to the children of it , of whom on pain of perishing it requires the living of a life , which it gives no ability to , and which the other , i e. the Spirit only gives and inables to live , the other that of Spirit , Life , Liberty , Righteousness , Glory , but also as the one , that is , the Old is a writing ad extra only , the other , that is , the New , a writing , a Scripture , only ad intra ( though written of by that without that he absolutely asserts a present inconsistency since the doing away of the Old , between a mans being a Minister now of both as once , and that posita novo tollitur vetus , the new being now come in full force , and confirmed by the Testators death , the Old Testament , and its Ministry is disanulled in regard of its weakness and unprofitableness ( however profitable as a Type in its time for many uses ) to bring immediately to the life , so that he who is the Minister of the one , i.e. of the Old Testament , i.e. of the Letter , Outward writing , Text , or Scripture , is not a Minister of the other , i.e. of the New , i.e. of the Gospel , Righteousness , Glory , liberty life and Spirit ; and Retro , he who is a true Minister of the Gospel or New Testament [ as now standing in the force and substance it self out of the figure and shadows wherewith it was vailed of old ] is not ( though he may utter things , as moved of the Spirit , that are written in the Letter , as Christ himself and the Apostles did ) a Minister of the Old , as the Old Word-stealers , Jer. 23. were , and our Modern Text-takers , and Scripture-sellers are . Paul taketh away the one from him on whom he stablisheth the other , denies the one , of whom he affirms the other , and opposes the New Testament , which he stiles the Spirit , to the Letter , by which name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he denominates only the Old : God , saith he , hath made us able Ministers of the New Testament , not of the Letter , but of the Spirit , for the Letter killeth , but the Spirit giveth life . 2. Here is not all , nor yet not half of that absurdity and falshood that I.O. in his folly flings abroad in that small parcel above , which I am yet under the animadversion of , for whereas he sayes , I am vero omne Testamentum est perfectum , every Testament is perfect , intending it both of the Old Testament , and the New , and not only so , but of such a perfection as avails in hunc finens ut assequamur vitam aeternam , to this very end , viz The obtaining the life eternal it self ( for so is his assertion of the Books of the Scriptures , which he describes as to their nature , and concludes under that name of the Old , and New Testament ) his Positi●n is so wofully false , that himself is as wonderfully foolish , who sees it not flatly contradictory to the Scripture ; for howbeit the very Old Testament , or outward letter is duly owned by us to be a Ministration of God ( from whom nothing can come , as is abovesaid , but what is perfect , praesertim respectu finis cui opus quodcunque deflinat , in reference to that end for which he appoints it ) absolutely perfect to that end for which it is given forth of God , which is to be an A , B , C , or elementary help , or outward worldly Rudiment to indoctrinate younglings in their ●●nage concerning the inward Light and Spirit , as the only way that leads to Christ the Life from whom the Light comes , and is lent as a line or clew of thread , that followed conducts through the valley , and shadow of death to the Life it self , in which respect the Letter of the Law is called a School-master , Tutor , Governour , under whose Tuition the under aged imbondaged ignorant ones may be trained up into a true understanding of the Truth , as it is in J●sus , as by a Shadow , Type , Figure , Festraw , or Finger that points the Primarian Professors more distinctly to that they are to eye and aim at more then it self , and by such as are in the faith and obedience to the light may be used too , to make them wiser toward salvation , and more perfectly furnish● 〈◊〉 every good work , as he that is past a novice , and is become a well-studied Scholar can and may ( but must is another matter ) read in the Horn-book as well and better than when he learned in it ; yet as to its being , so omnibus numeris absoluta & perfecta , as thou bablest , making it so perfect as to bring to the life , that is a meer Antiscriptural fiction of thy own fancy , for though a man may by the Horn-book learning become the more dispositively fitted to read in the Bible , and other books of Latine or Logick . and so by degrees come at last to the capacity and degree of a Doctor in the Vniversi●y , yet he that shall say the Horn-book is ( per saltum ) perfect to this end that without need of reading or learning any other books a person may by it alone become capable immediately of Commen●ing Dr. in Divinity , shall by my consent be counted as ridiculous , silly and senseless as such as side with J. O s. sayings are , who say of the Scripture or Letter alone , exclusively of the Spirit and Light within it calls to walk in , that by it men may have the Life , it gives the Life , it is the only most perfect standing Rule of faith and life ; yea is so perfect and absolu●● in all respects , that there is no need of any other Revelation by the Spirit or Light within to instruct us in the knowledge of God , and our duty , to this end that we may obtaine eternal life , yea all these means of knewing God , and his will are uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , in no wise necessary , and therefore to be rejected and detested as Fanatick figment . For the foresaid hon●urer of the Horn-book in his Hyperbolical adoration of it would be as contrary to common sense and reason as I.O. and T.D. in their absolute admirations of the Scripture , and abominations of the Spirit and Light within for its sake are both to sense and reason , and the common Testimony of the Scripture it self also , which testifies every where concerning the Old Testament or Letter ( which I confess to be profitable , perfect , and absolutely able to the ends and uses of Gods appointment as a Typical testimony of those things which were to be spoken after that is weake , imperfect and unprofitable as to that end for which I ▪ O. asserts it per salium , to be so absolutely able , powerful and perfect to , that is to say to salvation and eternal life ; for it faith that it is the Light and Spirit that give the life , and the liberty from the lust and sin , to which the mother that is under the Old Testament , or Letter of the Law is yet in bondage with her children , and that the Old Testament , or Letter lyes only in eatings and drinkings and diverse Baptisms and carnal Ordinance , imposed only till the time of Reformation , Heb. 9 10 in weakè and beggerly rudiments or elements of the world , unto which who , having once begun in the Spirit , are tu●ned aside to , are foolish and bewitched , and disobedient to the Truth , and do but think in vain ) to be made perfect by the flesh , and desire again to be in bondage , and know not yet Christ formed in them , but know him only outwardly , and after the flesh , Gal. 1.3.4.9 , 19. 2 Cor. 5.16 , 18. are Iews outwardly only , not truly , nor inwardly , nor circumcised with the Circumcision made without hands , which is that of the heart in the Spirit , not of letter , whose praise is not of men , but of God , but Concis'd and conform●d according to the outward bodily exercises found in the letter , loving the praise of men , more than the praise of God ; and according to the law of a carnal Commandement , not the inward worship of God in Spirit , nor after the power of that endless life the light leads to . That the law of the Letter , which had but the shadow of good things , and not the very image of the things themselves , could never make the corners thereunto perf●ct as pertaining to the conscience , Heb 9.9.10.11 . That the Old Testament was faulty and failing , and defective , whereupon G●d made a new one , that could bring to life , as it could not , for if there had been a Law which could have given life , verily righteousness should have come by it , Gal. 3.21 for if it had been faultless or perfect , or could have made perfect , or given life , there had been no occasion for the second , Heb. 8.7 , 8. That there is a disanulling of the Commandement going before which was attendance to an outward letter , because of the weakness and unprofitablness thereof , because it could make nothing perfect , but only was the ushering in of a better Hope , even of the Light and Spirit , by which we may draw nigh to God , who is Light , Heb. 7.16 , 18 , 19. and with whom no Letter lauder , that lives beside the light , & the mystery of the Letter also , can have any fellowship at al. And lastly , as to thy saying that every , Testament if it be but mans is perfect , so that when once confirmed none may disanul or add● to it . I answer , no perfect Testament is to be dianulled when confirmed , and in full force , as it is only by the death of the Testator ; but that shews thy assertion to be false , who saye● that every Testament is perfect , inasmuch as the Old Testament or Letter was disanulled [ which secundum te could not have been , if it had been perfect , and so omnibus numeris ) absolute as thou sayest ] in regard of the weakness & unprofitableness of it to bring to life ; and for the the faultiness and imperfection of the first , God himself whose Testament it was , dedicated with the blood of Bulls , Goats , Lambs , and Calves , for the time then being only ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as intended for a while only 't was called a Ceremony ) takes it away that he might establish the second , Heb. 7.18 , 19.8 , 7 , 8 , 9. that is perfect to the giving of the life , which is ignorantly asserted by thee of the Letter , for the Letter , that was perfect to its own end as a shadow , was altogether imperfect thereunto . And that nothing is to be added to any Testament once come in full force and vertue by the death of the Testator [ as all Testaments do then , and never till then , for Heb. 9.16 , 17. where a Testament is , there must of necessity also be the death of the Testator for a Testament is of force after men be dead , otherwise it is of no strength at all whilst the Testator liveth ] This I freely grant as a truth , but utterly overturns all thou contendest for which that is the Books of the Apostles and Evangelists , which were all written after Christ the Testators death , ' are the New Testament , which how they can possibly be if thy own Position be true , as it is , that to a Testament , if but mans when confirmed , as it only and alwayes is by the Testators death [ much more God's New Testament after once confirmed by the Death of Christ the Testator as it was before one letter of that Scripture thou callest the New Testament as written ] nothing must be added thereto , let all who are not void of judgement judge . For if the writings of the Apostles and Evangel●sts which were all added and penned after Christs death , the Testator of it , by whose death it came into full force and strength , be the New Testament , an outward literal Declaration of which New Testament , I know it is , as the Writings of Moses and the Prophets also are , both which are but the Letter , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Old Testament that in an external way declares the New , with this difference only that the writing before Christ declared Chrisiumexihibendum , those since Chrisium exhibitum , the first Christ to be offered , the later Christ already offered ; I say if these later be the New Testament then either one or both of these two absurdities must be owned , viz. that there hath been , where there should have been none , a superadding of very much to the New Testament , or rather secondly , that the whole New Testament was it self made since it was ratified and confirmed by the Testators death . Vtrum horum mavis accipe , own thou I.O. which thou wilt , or both of these if thou wilt , but I le never own that to be a mans Testament only , much les , Christs , but only fained so to be , that is added to , or rather wholly made after his death whose Testament it is . I.Os. other Mediums are all too frivolous to insist upon . The third is ab expresso Testimonio , the express , Testimony of Psal. 16.7 , 8. Reply . Where I have shewed before that by the Law , Testimony , Commandement of the Lord , is intended the Light wee talk of , not the Letter . The fourth , A materia Scripturarum , the matter , which saith he ; is all the Councel of God , and nothing but what the Prophets and Moses spake , alluding to Act. 20.27 . and citing Act. 26.22 . Reply . In neither of which places Paul doth either mention or mean any outward Scriptures or Writings of his own , much less other mens , but the things he ministred to the Church of Ephesus and her Elders by word of mouth , delivering to every of them according to their Stations and Relations , how they ought to walk , and to please God , and with-holding nothing that was profitable either to Elders or flock , Act. 20.20 . and to all men small and great , the summe and substance of things fore-spoken of old , viz. Repentance toward God , and faith toward Iesus , vers . 21. and how there was now as to the mystery of truth , Nil dictum quod non dictum prius , nothing said , which was not shewed before in the type and shadow . 5. A fine , from their end , which , quoth he , is 1. Faith , Joh. 20.21 . These are written that ye may beleeve , and Rom. 10.17 . Faith comes by hearing . Reply . Which first Text , if intending faith in the history of things , that the Letter may beget , men may have , and have from Rome to this place , and yet perish , which latter Text intends a saving faith : but that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God , which Word , saith Paul above in the same Chapter , is not the Letter without , but a Light within nigh in the heart and mouth of men , that they may hear and do it , even the Word of faith which they preached . 2. Wisdome to salvation , perfect , instruction to all good works , 2 Pet. 1.19 . 2 Tim. 3.15 . 16. Reply . Which Scriptures I have spoken to before , and shewed how little they make to I.Os. purpose , the first speaking not of the Scripture at all . The second , how throw saith in the light first , the letter may be profitable toward , but not , per saltum , to salvation and perfection . 3 Attainment of eternal life , 5. Joh. 39.30.31 . Reply . Which life comes , as is there said above through Christ , and beleeving in his light , which is his name , whom and which the Scriptures testifie of , as appears by the two Texts he cites , talked on enough by me already in way of answer to I.Os. Fancies and not by the Letter or Scriptures themselves , though searched after and lookt for there by the Scribes , that neither heard nor saw the Father , nor came to the Son for life , nor could abide , that his word should abide in them . So that howbeit he concludes the Scripture perfect in all respects , I say in respect to its own appointed end it is , as abiding incorrupted by mens wresting , as at first given out by holy men , yet not in all the respects , in which I.O. and T.D. assert it to be perfect , who makes it , as now altered and adulter●ted , the only most perfect Standing Rule of faith and life , and way and means of knowing his will , our duty , and of coming to eternal life , and that exclusively of all inward light and Spirit , and other Revelation , of which ( but where is the ' proof on'● ? ) his saies there is no need of them , but they are fictitious , uncertain , dangerous , abominable , and the like ; Whereas I trust to make it appear there is no knowing God but by other Revelation of him then the outward one that is made in the Scripture , even by the Revelation of himself within men . As for thy Enthusiasm and colloquia Angelica , vel ficta vel facta , thou mayest keep that to thy self , I pretend not to the defence of discourse with Angels fained or true , yet to thy shame I shall say thus much in vindication of truth against thee , viz. that thou shewest thy self but a silly man to con●emn Colloquia cum Angelis vel sicta vel facta , and by whole sale to throw away without making any difference all conference with Angels , whether made indeed , or but fained ? for what were all Daniels , Maries , Pauls , I●hns , Christs conferences with Angels truly made , fit for nothing but thy flours , and for thee to make thy self sport with ? Col. 2.18 . which thou cotest below will not save thee from the just censure of ignerant impudence , sith that condemns a worshipping of Angels only , as also the Angel himself condemns that , whom Iohn would have worshipt , Rev. 19.10 22.9 . and forbids it ; but conference with Angels , not counterfeit , and ficta , but facta : which thou makes no bones of to render detestable in thy dirty driblings , as well as fained , are of those good things thou speakest ill of , because thou knowest them not . Having Grubd up by the Roots the first of J. Os. Grand Artificial Arguments grounded inartificially upon Testimonies of Scriptures , which he calls inartificial ones , and disproved all his petty and subordinate proofs of the minor Proposition thereof on which the whole stress of his evidence stood ; I proceed to examination of the rest . Arg. 2. His second is , A perfecta operatione seu effe●tu Scripturarum , from the perfect operation and effect of the Scripture . In English thus , If the Scripture doth accomplish in its way of efficacy , which is moral , All things that can possibly be effected by any Revelation of Gods will whatsoever in order to our due and sincere worshipping of God , and coming at last to life eternal , Then vain are all those foresaid principles of the knowledge of God , viz. The Spirit and Light within , which the Fanaticks falsly boast of . But the former is true : Therefore , &c. The minor of this Argument which I deny , hath a whole Troop of Testimonies or Texts of Scripture pressed to attend the proof thereof , which I.O. takes to be such a Trusty Life-guard ( and most of them are so to the Qua. cause concerning the Light , Word , and Spirit within ) that there is no doing any thing in denial thereof , that can reach to the rendring of it untrue ; but unless it be some one or two of them that mention the Letter as profitable in a way that will prove little to his purpose , the rest will frustrate his expectation of assistance from them , sail him & fal in with us neither expressing nor implying any such matter as the Scripture as he supposes , but intending all the very truth we contend for against him , viz. The efficacy , profitable , and powerful operation of the inward light , Word and Spirit of God , which he Ironically glories over as inania , inutilia , incerta minime necessaria , fictitia , rejicienda , detestanda , and such like . Those Texts are Ps. 19.8 . 119.105 . Rom. 1.15 , 16. 2 King 3.15 . Iam. 1.21 . 1 Tim. 4.16 . Isa. 55.10 , 11. I●r . 23.29 . Ioh. 8.31.5 1. Ioh. 17.20 . Rom. 15. ● . Heb. 4.12 . Here 's a whole Jure impannelled again , of which he imagines that they will all give their verdict his way for the Scripture , that it doth efficere ea omnia praedicté , yea alia omnia perficere , &c. effect the things aforesaid , yea and perfect or accomplish all things necessary to Gods glory and our salvation alone , so that inania sunt falsa , &c. All Revelation , or means of Revelation by these things , viz. The spirit or Light within , the Qua. call to , are vain and false , &c. But ( setting aside two of them , viz. 2 Tim 3.15 . Rom. 15.4 . ( as I have shewed above ) which though they do speak of the outward Scriptures being useful , profitable and comfortable to the Saints , yet prove them not to be therefore the only perfect standing Rule of faith and life for the reason rendred by T.D. why all Scripture that is by inspiration is not so , because besi●es inspi●ation to make a Rule is necessary Gods appointment of Writings to that end , pag. 43. of his 2. Pamph. which said appointment to that end the Book called the Bible hath not , saving only that appointment of man ) not so much as one of all the rest of his Trusty Texts do either mention or mean ought of the outward Scripture , I.O. cites and summons them all together to pass their Vote for , but do all unanimously give their Verdict on the behalf of that holy Spirit , Word , and Light within which the Qua. stand to vindicate as the antient , most perfect , useful , certain , stedfast standing Rule of faith and life , and way of Gods revraling his will to us , and of our saving knowledge of himself , and it , and our duty to him in particular , against that venome , I.O. and T.D. spit out against them , with which they are big , I.O. specially , under the slanderous disgraceful and opdrobrious compellations of uncertain , dangerous , unuseful , in no wise necessary , counterfeit , abject , detestable : So that I might let them all pass & take no notice of them , unless he had brought such Scriptures in proof the Scriptures power and efficacy as make some mention thereof either expresly or implicitly at least ; yet since they make not little to I.Os. as they make much for the Qua. cause against him , who affirm the word in the heart , and light within , to be that which he falsely and ignorantly asserts the Letter to be , viz. the only standing Rule and way of knowing God savingly , and means of Revelation of himself and w●● , and our duty to us , of our obtaining life , and that very self-evidencing effectual light , and power of God to salvation ; I am minded to insist here a little longer upon them , and perhaps upon such other Texts as I.O. elsewhere wrests this way in proof of the self-evidencing efficacy , light and power of the Scriptures in his English Treatises , as well as in his Latine Theses . The first of I.Os. Twelve Texts ( Ten whereof nor talk of , nor intend , nor mention , nor mean the Sripture at all ) viz. Ps. 19. it hath been talkt with already above , where I have shewed that the Law of God , which is therefore said to be a restituens animam , restoring and converting the soul , is the Light the Letter speaks of , and not the Letter it self , which any but a blinde man may see ; for what Letter was written when David wrote this ? very little more then the Books of Moses , which I.O. himself , and all men con●ess to be but the Old Testament , which is but the letter that killeth , for is that outward Letter of the Apostles and Evangelists were the new Testament , as they call it , yet none of that was in being till above a thousand years after David , and the Old Testament that was in his dayes is now abolished , neither it nor the Letter nor outward Statutes and Judgements of it being given to any but Jacob or Israel after the flesh , as a type of the New Testament or Covenant that is now made good to Israel after the Spirit ; but that Text I say hath been unfolded enough before , so that though I meet with it again here , as I have done twice before ( and whether I may again or no it matters not , but sure I am that some Scriptures thou citest four , and some five or six times over at least in thy Book , how much more I know not in proof of the Scriptures being this and that , which testifie no one Tittle of any thing concerning the Scriptures at all , so dry are our Doctors and Divines drawn and nearly driven to finde out furniture in the Scripture in defence of their false faith , and meer figments about the Scripture I shall meddle no mo more with it here , nor with the second that are sufficiently forespoken to , though they both speak something ( as good as nothing to thy cause concerning the outward Scriptures , viz Rom. 15. 2 Tim. 3. As for the other nine they all with one consent , and more that elsewhere thou cotest , do declare the Authority , efficacy , self-evidencing light and power of the word of God within , which both the Qua. and the Scriptures bear one and the self-same testimony to , but predicate nothing at all of the Scriptures , which nine together with the rest that are coincident therewith and truly cogent to all mens consciences , as concerning the witness they give to the inward word , the outward Letter relates of , I shall here take under consideration , in what order is not very much material . As to that Ioh. 8 31.5 1. in which two verses Christ to the Jews speaks of one and the same thing , which run thus , If ye continue in my words , ye are my Disciples indeed , and ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free : If a m●n keep my saying , he shall never see death . I reply . Reply . Christs Word and his saying is efficacious and powerful to tree them that continue beleeving in it , and deliver from death ▪ and give life , yea that the Words he speaks are spirit and life , according as he sayes of them , Ioh. 6.63 . and vers . 68. the Words of eternal life ( which Text pag. 68. thou I.O. very falsely expoundest of Moses , the Prophets and Apostles Writings ) this who ●●●●ies ? Which word of his as it s heeded in the heart where it is spoken and laid up there till it dwell richly within sits men to teach and admonish others according to Col. 3.16 . which Text also thou understandest Ex. 2. s 13. and T.D. too p. 31. of his 1. Pamph. of the Scripture or Letter without , and that the Word that Christ speaks to every man in his own heart and conscience , whose voice and word , and Gods word also , his sheep hear , and such as are of God , when others do not , cannot , because they will not , Joh. 8.43.47.10.26 , 27. is that which leaves without cloak or excuse in their sins , Joh. 15 22. and that the Word that God by Christ the Light , and Christ by his Spirit and Light in the conscience speaks , is that which who so beleeves in , and hears , abides not in darkness or errour , but comes to know the truth that sets him free from the law of sin and death , and brings to life ; and who hears not , or hears and beleeves not , or receives not , but rejects , shall be judged by at the last day , according to Joh. 12.46 , 47 , 48 , 49 , 50. this I do not deny , for this is it ( and not the Letter here , as it is sometimes used as the Lights instrument , which was never in the heart , how much less the letter chiefly , only , authoritatively , exclusively of any other Revelation by the Sp●ri● and Light within , a● thou spitte● it out , to w●ich Letter , yet pag. 87.83 , 86 , 87. thou ●o 〈◊〉 all those powerful properties ) which dive , into the hearts , co●science● , and secret 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 of men whether they ever saw , read , heard , or heard of the Letter yea or nay , Judges , sentences them in themselves , convinces , tes●ifies , conquers , kills men , converts , builds up , makes wise , holy , obedient , ministers consolation in every condition , to whom it is due , and ( as thou sayest intending it of the Scripture , which is peculiar only to the Light within the heart the Scripture speaks of ) guides , teaches , directs , determines , judges in , and upon men in the Name , Majesty , and Authority of God ; also I deny not but the Word of Christ spoken by Christ himself in the conscience is that which is effectual to purge the conscience and cleanse the heart that it may bring forth fruit to God , and the way accordin to Ioh. 15.3 where he sayes , Now ye are clean through the Word that I have spoken unto you ; and according to that of Paul , Eph. 5.26 . who saith , Christ cleanseth and sanctifieth by the washing of water through the Word ; and that of David , Psal. 119 9. who saith that the means by which a young man may cleanse his way is by taking heed thereto according to Gods word , which Word of God also he sayes , vers . 11. he had hid in his heart that he might not sin against God , which inward Word of God , that is so abundantly spoken of [ as I elsewhere shewed ] in that 119. Psal. that there is not past two of three among those 176. verses of it , in which it is not mentioned , as to i●s efficacy , excellency , usefulness , profitableness , and power under one name or other of either Testimonies , Statutes , Judgements , Precepts , Law , Commandements , &c. all sounding out one and the same , is stiled ( for it was not an outward Writing with mens hands he there means ) vers . 72. The Law of Gods mouth , and 88. the Testimony of Gods mouth , intimating that which came more immediately from God to him in his heart , then the Writings of Moses could do , even out of his own mouth in him , whom he and Habakuk 3.1 . and all the Pr●ph●ts , excep● the Word-stealers , heard what he would say in them , Ps. 85.9 . Jer. 23.16 . receiving from his mouth & stood in his counsel the Light within . That that Scripture , Joh. 8. is true of Chri●ts words in what it speaks of them , and the rest that are suitable to it , I deny not , but that either it , or any of them by God , or Christs words , or sa●ing● intend the Scriptures without at all , much more altogether exclusively , as thou talkest of the Word , Spirit and Light within , and the Revelation of minde and will of God thereby immediately in the heart ; this I utterly deny , affirming that the internal Reveation of his minde to men by his own ●oice from his own mouth in their consciences is that which is mainly , yea only , and altogether intended in them , yea and in some , not to say all of them , exclusively rather of the Scriptures , as which indeed are not the Word or Words that are declared to effect those precious things , but are only outward Writings of spiritually inspired men , who witnessed its efficacy in themselves , that declare those precious things which the inward Word effecteth : And the like I respectively affirm and deny as concerning that other Text , Jer 25.29 . of thy own alledging , where God saith of his Word it s a fire , and a hammer that breaketh the Rocks in peeces , denying it utterly to be meant of the Writings of the true Prophets , out of which the false ones stole the words they preacht , and then ran and said , Thus saith ●he Lord , declaring in his name when he never spake to them , nor sent them , when like the Scribes for all their telling things as the Word of the Lord , as they read this or that in the Scriptures , they had never as any time heard his voyce , nor flood in his counsel , nor received , nor marked his words as coming out of his own mouth , and affirming it to be meant of the Word of God ministred immediately by his own voice in the conscience , which is said to be accompanied with the like mighty effects in the hearts of wicked , sturdy , proud , haughty minded men that are likened to Mountains and Rocks against which the Lord comes in a way of terrible storms and thunderings which prepare his way , 1 King. 19 , 11 , 12 and to lofty Cedars of Lebanon , and strong Oaks of Bashan , Isa. 2.12 . to the end , in Psal. 29.3 , 4 , 5 , 6. &c. where it is said , The voice of the Lord is upon the great waters , or peoples , Rev. 1● . 15 . The God of glory thundereth , the voice of the Lord is powerful , full of Majesty , breaketh the Cedars , divides the flames , shakes the wilderness , makes the ●lindes calve , discovers the Forrests ; and that its of this , and not the Letter which men steal nad call the Word , is evident by the verses about it , where the Lord declares himself to be against the Prophets that steal , and tell and sell what they read in the true Prophets writings which they wrest according to their own dreaming thoughts into sinister senses , and to tell lies and dreams , and divinations of their own brain for truth , which stoln ware , though they vent the same word which they read in others writings , not receiving and uttering as from Gods own mouth , God calls but the vision of their own mouth , and the Chaff which is nothing to the Wheat , and not the other , vers . 21. Moreover as to the other of thy Texts I am yet in hand with , viz. Jam. 1.2 . 1 Tim. 4.16 . Heb. 4.12 . Psal. 119.105 . Isa. 55.10 , 11. All which thou urgest in proof of one and the same spirit of falshood , viz. in vindication of the Scriptures to be powerful to salvation , to beget faith , to bee living , sharp , spirit searching , discerning thoughts , a Light and Lamp , and so cons●quently the only perfect standing Rule of faith and life exclusively of another Revelation by the Spirit , Word , or Light within , these are a●● true of the Word and Doctrine of Christ the Spirit and Light within , the Qua. call to , and the Letter points at in all these Texts of thy traducing , but m●thinks thou shouldest be ashamed to expound any one of those of the Letter and Scripture itself . As to that of Paul to Timothy , Take heed to thy self , and to the Doctrine , continue in them in so doing thou shalt save thy self and them that hear thee . What 's this in proof of the Scriptures being powerful to save the soul , which is the end of thy alledging it ? he bids him continue in the things he had learned ( as also 2 Tim. 3.14 . ) and had been assured of knowing of whom he learnt them , which if it were from Paul as a means under God , as it rather seems to be from Christ himself , whose Disciple he was ( as he could not be but as he laarnt of him ) before he became acquainted with Paul , Act. 16.1 , 2. the promise is entailed unto his continuance in the things , and not ascribed to any power or efficacy of the Scriptures to save , though yet we know Timothy was well skilled in the Scriptures also , as is owned above . And as to that of James with which thou joynest this in proof of the outward Letters power to save , to which also , p. 83 84 , 85. thou jumblest together a number more then are in this Catalogue underhand , and which I shall take in here , that speak of the Word with one consent to one and the same purpose ( but not to thine which is to prove the Scripture to be so ) as most effectual , powerful , and able to save souls , yea the very power of God to salvation . viz. Rom. 1.16 . 1 Cor. 1.18 . 1 Cor. 2.5 . 1 Thess. 1.5 . Psal. 110.2 . Act. 20.31 . Joh. 6.68 . Gal. 2.8 . Col. 1.6 . and more out of the Co●●nths misco●ed , from which Tex●s thou powerest out thy blinde opinion of the Bible , and concerning the Scripture thereof in this particular , in such wise , saying it is absolutely called the power of God , Vis , virtus Dei , the Power of God , the Gospel , the Power of God , and faith which is built on that Word without other helps or advantages is said to stand in the Power of God ; the Word that comes not as a naked word , but in power and in the holy Ghost , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , giving all manner of assurance , and full perswasion of it self , even by its power and efficacy : It is termed the Rod of power or strength , denoting its Authority and Efficacy ; that which is thus the Power and Authority of God , able to make it self known so to be : It is not only said to be , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Power , the power of God in it self , but also , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , able and powerful in respect of us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the sacred Letters , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are able to make wise to salvation , they are powerful and effectual to that purpose , it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , potens servare anima● nostras , the Word that hath power in it to save ; the able , powerful word that Paul commends the Ephesians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is living and effectual : By v●rtue of this power it brought forth fruit in all the world without sword , without for the most part miracles , without humane wisdome or Oratory without any inducements or motives , but what were meerly and solely taken from it self consi●ting in things that eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , nor could enter into the heart of man to conceive hath e●erted this power and efficacy so the conquest of the world , causing men of all sorts in all times and places so to fall down before its divine Authority , as immediately to renounce all that was dear to them in the world , and to undergo what ever was dreadful , terrible and destructive to nature in all its dearest concernments and such like . Reply . All this I know to be true of the Word , Light , and Spi●it of God in the hearts of men which the Letter points to , and the Apostles preached as that which men should beleeve in , it is absolutely the Gospel , the power of God to salvation , but the Letter not so , the faith that is built on that word without other helps or advantages from the Letter stands in the Power of God , as Abraham , Noahs , Enoch , Abels , and all the holy men did , that lived by faith in the Word , 't was Gods power , mighty , and effectual to save them before any outward Letter was written , and without the help and advantage thereof , but the outward Letter is profitable to nothing at all without the help and advantage of the Light and Spirit within , but is a dead letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls ; and this the same J.O. who sayes , the Scripture without other helps and advantages , is so absolute and perfect that we may obtain eternal life , that there 's no need of any other Revelation by the Spirit or Light within ; but those are all dangerous , uncertain , unprofitable , in no wise necessary , fanatick figment , desestable , &c. Ex. 17. s. 28. to the wonted contradiction , of himself in all t●at , and what is underhand confesses with us in totidem verbis of that Scripture , which he calls the Word , p. 236. saying , that without the adminis●ration of the Spirit accompanying mens possession of it , it is a dead letter of no efficacy to the good of souls . The word Light and Spirit of God and Christ within , nigh in the heart , but not the Letter without is the Gospel , which Paul bare testimony to , and was sent to turn men to by his Ministry , and was not ashamed of , saying its the power of God to salvation , to every on that beleeves in it , and comes in the outward Ministry of it by word of mouth and writing [ and is witnessed so to do at this day as of old it did ) to many not in word only , but power and the holy Spirit , giving all manner of assurance and full perswasion of it self to such as through prejudice put it not away from them , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of that eternal life , which it is the word of , that it is not the word of men , but [ as it is in truth ] the word of God , that is both light and living , and Spirit , and life it self , even the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ the Image of God , which is not Letter , 2 Cor. 3. thining unto them both in , and also out of the darkness that is mens hearts , where the God of this world blindes not the minds so that men will not beleeve it , to the giving them the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. This , and not the Letter is the Rod of power , which God promi●ed to send out of Sion , even the Rod and sharp Sword of his mou●h and breath of his lips , wherewith he will now smite the Nations , and slay the wicked , and reprove with equity on the behalf of the meek of the earth , whom the proud oppress , even the word of his mouth , which he will put into the mouths of his sucklings , and their seed and seeds seed , out of which he ordains strength to the perfecting his own praise against the persecutor . This , and not the weak dead letter , Bible or Scripture thou so labourest , bablest , and scriblest for , is that Power and Authority of God , Able [ as the outward Writing is not ] to make it self known so to be ; for the letter is as lifeless , helpless , powerless , as any other Book , Writing , or dumb Idols that men adore and receive ( a● ye with the Iews of whom thou speak'st p. 237. do the Bible at this day ) with the honour and veneration due to God that cannot stir from the place where it s set as neither can the Scripture from where it s laid no more than the Turkish Alcoran ; ye● , as Jeremiah in his Epistle sai●h of the weakness and vanity of all the Idols of the heathen , whom they make powerful Gods of , Th●se Gods , quoth he , cannot save themselves from rust and moths , though they be covered with purple , they wipe them because of the dust of the Temple , when there is much upon them , men put the Scepter in their hands , as if they were the Iudge of the Country , and Daggers and Axes , but they cannot deliver themselves from Theeves , nor of themselves put to death one that offends them , as a useless vessel worth nothing when broken so it is with their Gods , they are as the beams of their Temples , upon their bodies and heads Str●Bats , Swallows , Birds , and Cats , they are things in which is no breath , yet they set and sell , and buy them at a high price , they are carried , having no feet ●o walk with , if they fall to the ground , they cannot rise up again of themselves , the same , together with what follows ( caeteris paribus ) Baruch 6. may be said of the adored Best Copies of the Great Bibles that lye in the great old mouldy Popish Parish Mass-houses , now called the Protestant Churches where the Bells hang , the Ministers of the Letter not the Spirit , the elder sort of which are Priests by Ordinatio●● * fit in their Temples and roar and cry the Word of God , the Law , the Light , the way to life , the Gospel , the power of God to salvation , as the Iews do when their Copy is carried about , but these Gods of those Idol Shepherds that leave their poor flock at any time for another that hath a better fleece , can do nothing at all , cannot withstand any King or enemies , are not able to escape either from Theeves or Robbers , nor when fire falleth on the houses where they are , to help or save themselves , or flye away , how then shall we think they ( the Books called Bibles the Scriptures ) are so powerful and effectual not only in themselves , but also in respect of us , as without any other helps or advantages to shew themselves to be the great Authority and Power of God , vis , virtus Dei , to our salvation , as I.O. dreams ? If he say he means not the Text , but the Word it talks on , let him say so then when he writes again , and then we will take it for granted he gives the cause in question to the Qua. whom he quarrels with for denying the Bible , Letter , Scripture , outward Writing to be the living , effectual , able , powerful word of God , that gives life and saves and such like , and so we shall meddle no more with him as to that matter , but so long as he will needs damn down the Qua. as denyers of Scriptures , and the Word of God too , because they deny the Letter , or Text to be properly the truth , or Word of God , it doth but declare and talk on , we must thereby understand him to intend the Letter which he talks for . Moreover as to the Light of God and Word nigh in the heart which the Apostles preached to turn men to , and taught them , as the Scripture also doth in its Testimony there to , to attend to as the Rule of faith and life , this is that Word of the truth of the Gospel , which is V is , virtus Dei , the Power of God , by the vertue of which Power it brought forth fruit in the Collossians , and in all the World where it so came , when it came unto them in the Ministry thereof , which was the means by which they heard of it first , and then came themselves to hear it ▪ and to know the grace of God in truth even that grace that bringeth the salvation and appeareth to all men , effectually instructing ( as well without , as with the outward Letter of it ) all that le●rn at it to deny ungodliness , and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , righteously and godly in this present world , which is the Light of God in the conscience called the goodness of God , or grace given to lead them to repentance , who despising the riches of it , are not led by it to repent , and so treasure up wrath to themselves , &c. Tit. 2 11 , 12. Rom. 2.4 , 5. This is it which brought forth fruit in the world , without Sword , Miracles , humane wisdome , oratory , or any inducements , or motives , but what are meerly and solely taken from it self consisting in things which eye hath not seen , ear heard , nor the heart of the animal , natural man , or of any but the spiritual man that by the Spirit which only searcheth and revealeth them discerneth the deep things of God , can discern or conceive . This is that that hath exerted its power and efficacy to the conquest of the world ( so far as it hath been cap●ivated in the high proud thoughts of it ) to the true obedience of Christ , causing men of all sorts , times , and places so to fall down before its Divine Authority , as to renounce all that its dear , underg●● all that it dreadful and destructive to nature in its dearest concernment . As for the Letter , the Scripture , which thou speakest of in a sense abstract from all other helps and advantages , as that which without need of any other Revelation by the spirit and light within ( for these thou call'st superfluous mediums ) doth plead for reception not onely in comparison with , but also opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of God , his mind and will founded thereon , and calls for attendance and submission with supreme and uncontroulable Authority , 57 58. as that which hath brought forth so much fruit , and exerted so much power . What power hath it put forth to conquer the world into such submission to the truth as it is in Iesus , as Christ requires , or as the Letter it self either calls for ? what fruits of righteousnesse hath it brought forth in the world cal'd Christian , to the glory of God , for all its being conceived in thy brain to be the power of God both in it self , and in respect of you ? Look upon all litteral Profess●rs that run a whoring from God the Lord , the Spirit and the Light that shines in them , there shewing moral good and evil , and spiritual good , and spiritual wickedness also ( for the fruites of the spirit , and works of the flesh , and the lusts thereof , envy , hatred , lasciviousness , &c. are manifest , and what ever manifests them , and all things in the conscience , is the light within , which is the Armour against the one , and the enabler to the other , and not the Letter wihout which only sayes so of the Light and see what works most abound in the most Reformed Nations and Churches of it , that are turned aside from the truth it self to a meer talking of the Text that talks of it , are they not the same that are to be found among Papists that live by no other professed Rule but tradition and Popish putasion ? yea set aside that grosser sort of superstition and thicker cloud of superfluous Ceremonies in matter of outward observations in Religion , in which the Kingdome of God , which stands in inward Righteousn●●s of the heart , expressing it self outwardly in the life , comes not as to Moralities , Mercy , Iudgement , Equity , Honesty , Innocency , Love , Purity , Humility , Faith and Fear of God unfained , which are the end of carnal Commandements contained in Ordinances , and bodily exercises that else are profitable to little , which said Moralities , as little as thou makest of Moral obedience , Moral good is that which the light in all mens hearts may avail to lead them to , p. 42 , 43 , 45. as if these were some pedling trivial matters that God regards not , which yet indeed being done in the Light , out of which God , who is Light , accepts of nothing , nor hath pleasure or delight in any of your litteral performances , are n● less then Spiritualities fruits of the Spirit , and of the Spirics only , and not the Letter , bringing forth ( for the Letter never yet brought forth the Spirits fruits in its Ministers and children , who for all their searchings and lookings into , and labouring for the letter , sow to the flesh still , as the Scribes and Pharisees did of old , that trusted in Moses and the Prophets Writings , and of the flesh reap corruption whilest the Ministers not of the Letter , but the Spirit the children of the Light , sow to the Spirit , and of it , and the Light reap the life it self , and these are the weightier matters of the Law , I say , as to the foresaid Moral matters ( saving the grosser dimnest of their devotions are not the same that is to say , as good fruits found among poor Papists as amongst you , and as bad among you as with them , and as unsound ? yea V in tu c●rtis Iudaeis ●ppeder● , wilt thou judge and disdain the concised Letter-lauding ●ew , O thou meerly Rantized Scripture-profissing-Christian , when they , who make their boast of the antient Ceremonies and Letter of the Law , do not more through breaking the Law in the Morals and Spirituals of it , then ye , who boast of the later Letter and Ceremonies thereof , through breaking the weightier Moral and Spiritual matters of it do dishonour God ? Is not your Vine a● the vine of Sodome to the Lord notwihstanding your solemn meetings and Sabbaths , and Fasts and fained forms , and many things that God never required at all , as much as theirs , who were punctualin performance of the very things that God himself required ? and are not your goodly Grapes of Injustice , Cruelty , Whippings , imprisonings , Persecutings of tender conscences for tel●●ng truth , for not paying Tythes , &c. and all other iniquity , dissoluteness and propaneness that overflows in Vniversities , Cities , Countries , as the Grapes of Gommorrah , as theirs were , and as clusters of Gall and Wormwood ? yea shall not the Gentile , the Hea●hen , as ye call them , the uncircumcist●n , the unchristned people , as to the Letter , that by the remants of the pure nature ( for the cor●upt nature only breakes the Law * ) do the things contained in the Law and shewed them in the Light within them , by which they are a Law to themselves , and go accused or excused in their own conscences before God , judge as well thee , who by the Letter and Baptism transgressest it as the Iews who by the Letter and Circumcision do transgress the Law , and Rebel against the Light ? is not as much of the true Righteousness found among many Heathens , as among most litteral Christians , who ever name the Name of Christ , but never depart from iniquity ? What geat efficacy and power then hath the Letter alone of it self without any other helps , advantages , or any other Revelation by the Spirit and Light within put forth and exerted to the conquering of the world , and the bringing forth of fruit in all the world , when as it is evident that it never yet subjected any one , whether Minister or Professor of it to the perfect obedence of it self in the main matters of it , as the Light and Spirit hath done done the children of it : As for our Parochial and Academical livers by the Letter ( temporally I mean , for otherwise they live neither by the Letter , nor the Light ) but beside both , both they and their Bible-blessing Beleevers are far from answering the call of their very literal Rule , which is all they own under that name and notion : that they are not come by it into the faith that ever they shall conform to it , or be perfected in holiness , or cleansed from sin by it either in this world , or that to come ; for whereas much of it is written in way of warning not to sin , 2 Ioh. 2.1 . and is profitable and powerful [ as they say themselves from 2 Tim. 3.16 . which speaks of Timothy men of God only , and also not exclusively of all other helps and advantages from the Spirit and Light as I.O. but as in conjunction with faith , which is in the Light as is shewed above ] to make men wise to salvation and perfect in good works , they are so far from beleeving it possible in this world not to sin , and be perfected in holiness or good works , that they deny it as little better than plain Popery to affirm any works done , though by Christs own power in us to be truly or perfectly good , or any better than dung and filthy Rags witness T.D. who ( as above said , p. 13● . of his 1 Pamp. ) sayes the Righteousness wrought in Paul after his onversion was Christs and yet renounced by him as dung & damn it down ●● Doctrine of Devils to teach men that they may be fully free from sin here , witness T. Rumsey , whose blinde judgement therein T.D. justifi●r in p. 41. of his ● . Pamph. and that its most false to say the Scripture either doth , or can obtain its end fully towards us while we are in this world , and yet that it is of no use to us in the world to come also ; so denying again what other whiles they affirm of the power and perfection of the Scripture , the perfection of which [ say they ] stands in no other thing than in sufficiency to effect its proper end which is with them the most perfect instruction of men in the knowledg and wor●hip of God , so that they may obtain eternal salvation , witness I.O. whose K●unds and Contradictions to himself in that point I shal here see down in his own words Englished , which were written by him in Latine * J.O. God the Author of the Scripture being the most perfect Agent , must necessarily , act for some end , therefore in the Declarati●n of his wi●l in the Scripture , 't is sure he had some propounded end ; but ●her●as the end is t●of●ld . ● . V●tima●e and ●emo●e . 2. Next and immediate , we state the ultimate , supream and general end to be his own glory : The immediate or next end of his giving the Scripture● , and so of the Scriptures themselves we con●end to be our direction in the knowledge of God , and obedience to be yeelded to him , that at length we doing his will , may obtain eternal salvation , and the enjoyment of himself , for this is the end of the worker , and of the work . What God intends by the Scriptures that they , to wi● , morally , and in the way of operation proper to them d● effect . But when a● the perfection of every Discipline consists in relation to its end , and that is to be held perfect w●ich is sufficent to its next end , but that imperfect which cannot obtain it prop●sed end the perfection of the Scriptures can consist in no other thing then in its sufficiency in respect to its proper end , which is the instruction of men in the knowledge and worship of God that they may attain eternal salvation . In this sense therefore we assert the Scripture to be the most perfect Rule of the whole worship of God , and o●r obedience . Reply . Whether ●●ere be not a more perfect way of our instruct●on in the saving knowledge of God then the Scripture appears elsewhere , where I shew no saving knowledge of God comes any way but the inward Revelation of himself in us by his Light and Spirit . Here only obse●ve I O. confusi●ns and confutation of himself in this above , by that which follows , when the Quae. say the Scripture is perfect to its own proper end , and its end being obtained , it ceases : Then quoth he ) * It s most false that the Scripture obtains it whole end in respect of us while we are in the world , therefore till heaven and earth pass away , not one j●t or tittle of the Law , i.e. Letter with him shall fail , for not only the begetting of faith , but also the building up in it while we live here is the end of the Scripture : So then its end which is begetting to , and building up in the faith is not effected by it here ; is it then in the world to comes 〈◊〉 no neither ( quoth he in the self-same Section ) the use of the Scripture sh●●● cease then being accomodated only to our present state and faith also , as founded on it ●●●ll be done a●ay . Ex 3. s. 39. Here then is the round I.O. makes with a Cris-cross in the middle of it , viz. The perfection of the Scripture which we plead and affirm , and of every thing else , is its sufficiency and efficacy to accomplish its own proper immediate end , and what ever doth not so is imperfect ; The immediate end of the Scripture is its direction , instruction of men in the saving knowledge of God , his will , worship , their obedience and duty to him , the ingeneration of faith and edification up in it to salvation ; This whole end of the Scripture its most false to affirm that it accomplishes till the world to come ; it must do it in this world , or in the world to come ; in this world it cannot possibly do it for perfection in the faith in holiness & freedom from sin here is not attainable ; in the world to come it cannot possibly , for there both the Scripture it self , and also the faith it se●f , that is founded on it , will cease to be of any use at all , being of use only here , ●nd shall be both done away . Verbum sat sapients , insipienti plura plus satis . Never did I see such Rounds and crosses and confusions , and contradictions such self-confutations and Net-works , and Checker-work and Webs , and Snares , as I.O. makes , and hangs hampered in himself when he hath done , made and woven among any , but our wofully benighted Divines , all whose works are done in the darke , Isa. 29.15 . in all my dayes before . Is the Scripture then the Power of God to salvation , able , mighty , effectual , available to its end , that is to save the soul , as I.O. sayes it is ? ( no quoth I.O. ) it is not , it s most false to say it doth , or can avail to its end in this world , & in the world to come its of no force ; so if it be the power of God ( as I.O. affirms it over and over again it is ) it must be in some world that is past away , or some new found world or other , for he himself sayes its neither in this present world , nor that to come , neither now , nor hereafter , neither here nor there : But alas , as the world it self , wherein he fancies such a thing to be , is none knows where , but a meer Chimaera of his own coining , hatcht no where but in his own head , the Shop where and whence many more such like toyes are shapen , sold and uttered among such as having sold the truth , are willing rather to trade in utter untruths then in nothing at all , and not receiving the love of the truth that they might be saved , but taking pleasure in unrighteousness more then it , are given over to strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned . For seriously that the Letter or Scripture is the power of God to salvation , or that Word of God which brings forth any good fruit to perfection among either the Seedsmen the Ministers of the Letter , that sow nothing but their own senses and thoughts upon it , or in the stony , thorny , common high-way ground of Parish peoples hearts , in which they sow , the Letter mingled with their own chaffy cogitations saying , Hear the word of the Lord , when yet they confess themselves neve heard his voice . This however ye imagine , Oh ye power less , profitless Prophets , is a meer no such matter ; for that is the Word or Seed that is sown by the Supreme Sowes the Son of Man himself in the same Field or World of mens hearts , in which the World is , where the Devil in the dark night while men sleep and watch not to the light , sows Tares among the good Seed , which where it lights on honest hearts that hear and heed the Word patiently , continuing in the keeping of it , brings forth abundantly in some Thirty , some Sixty , some ●n Hundred fold . Indeed the Letter , the Text or Scripture , declares , and bears witness to the Word , which is absolutely necessary , effectual , perfect to the ends aforesaid , which is the power of God , the light of God , the wisdome , saving truth , immediate witness , clearest way of Revelation , soul-cleansing Law , sure foundation , most perfect Rule , immoveable stedfast Standard of Gods setting up , but it self is nos all , nor any of this , nor doth it at all any where avouch it self to be any of it at all . The Scripture points to that , which is the Power of God by the being of which , in and upon his people , who only own and joyn to it , they are made a willing people in the day thereof , when such as turn from , and against the light , which is the power , and labour in the weak naked Letter labour in vain , and are left unwilling to leave their lusts and lives for Christ , as his Maryrs or outward witnesses did in all Ages : But the Letter it self is not Power of God , that sustained them in the suffering , and inabled them to forgo what was dear to them , and to undergo what was dreadful and destructive to nature in its dearest concernments . The Letter tells us that the Saints did so , and tells us , and all Saints that we should do for Christ , but the Power by which this is done is another matter , then a Letter ad extra , even the inward light , Word and Spirit , that thou doest despite to , even that in the conscience , that made them indure as seeing him who is invisible , and discovered the dark●●ss , upon the discovery of which they rather chose death then to own it as Light and Truth , not only in ages as high as Moses , who by faith in the Light chose affliction rather then sin , and feared not the wrath of Pharaoh , but also from him downward as low as Maries dayes , in which some died for denying the darkn●ss of the Popes D●ctrines of Transubstantiation , &c. which the Light in their consciences told them were too gross to be of God , who yet by their confession could not dispute against it with Vniversity Sottish Sophisters , Doctor Dunces out of Letter , nor so much as read a letter therein , and also as low as these dayes wherein by the Power of God many are born up to bear the Trials of the cruel Academical mockings , scoffings , scourgings , in●lictings , stonings , bonds , imprisonments , abuses to death , witness one of the first of the Lords two Hand-maids that were sent to warn the Vniversity of their universal abomi●ations at Oxford in the time of I.Os. Vice chancellorship there ▪ who perhaps may not be so learned literally , though mystically and spiritually more in the Letter , as obtuse ācuti ●omun●ione● , many of those dull-beaded nimble disputers out of it are in their bald fashion of Syllogistical form . Neither did the Letter either of the Old Testament ( which is the Letter without , of what things soever written ) or the outward Letter of the New , ever conquer the world in which thou sayest it brought forth so much fruit , further then into a meer empty fruitless form of Godliness without the power thereof , insomuch that though as to the Primitive Christian Churches , while they kept in the Light , which the Apostles Ministry whether by word of mouth , or Writing , Letter , Scripture , was to turn them to walk by , and beleeve in * and in the Spirit in which they began , till foo●ishly being bewitched from obeying the truth it self they turned aside to the outward Text that tells it , and so thought to be made perfect by the flesh , and the fleshly bodily exercises they found in the Letter , which once used were as low , weak , begge●ly elements for a time ) the power of God , and godliness was much ●elt among them , and abode with , and upon them to the prevailing against the Powers of the earth , and the overcomming the world it self , and Satan the Prince of it by the blood of the Lamb , and the Word of his Testimony , not loving their lives to the death , and much fruit of the Spirit , and of righteousness was brought forth to the glory and praise of God. But when Synods and Councels , doting Doctors , infatuated Ghostly-Fathers , and such as admired their persons as they the persons of the Apostles and primitive Disciples , began to bundle together what they could get of the W●itings of such as were coaetaneous with Christ and the Apostles , and , without any such order from either Christ or the Apostles , to canonize what in their conceits might be useful to others , as they had found them , t is like , to be to themselves , into a Rule or Canon , and stated them into a common Standard for all to have their sole recourse to in soul-cases . and matters of Christian faith and holy life , and so to adore the dead letters of those holy living men , and to run a whoring after some remnants of Writings that dropt from them then , in the whole world now called Christendome instead of an Apostolical Spouse of Christ , as Christians were at first , presented a chaste Virgin to himself by them , there stands up an Apostatical Strumpet that had the Letter and good words written there , but neither the life of God , nor the Word of life therein testified to , that ( according to the nature of Error which is ever multiplying ) degenerated more and more into the dark , till at last being gone from the Word , Spirit , Light and Life within to the outward Letter that relates of it , they ran into the Wildernes of their own numberless senses upon it , so that they lost the Letter also , and fell from it into Tradition , and a thousand Old Wives Fables , and though it is good and acknowledged so to be ( so far as it is ) that the Protestants have marched from Rome under the conduct of the Le●ter , yet for all they are come back from the blinde screel scrawls of the Popish Scribes for their smoaky imaginations to a pretensive profession of , and prate pr● Scripturis for the Scriptures , unless they march on according to the conduct of the Scriptures till they come into the Light and Spirit , which they point to , and by a dotage upon the Scriptures ye would run from , they are not so much , as come yet to the Scriptures , nor to conform to that counsel of the Prophets and Apostles given in it , but are yet erring from the Scriptures , even in and by their very eager Scriblings for it as the only most perfect Rule , and from the only Rule of faith , and way to Life , the Letter is as loud for ( but that they are dull of hearing as they in their naked Writings are loud for the naked Letter it self . And so it comes to pass that as Israel was of old who was as laborious in the Letter , & busie about the Bible and strict for his Scripture-standard , as our Israel * for the self-same , which yet they confess too is abolished as to the Litteral observation of it , with the Appendix of a few of Stories and Letters , and Revelations of those holy men next to Christs time , who by the Spirit wrote much more then is there own'd as their Standard ; I say , as the old Israel proved as to God an empty vine , Hos. 10.1 bringing forth fruit only to himself , so is our National Gospel Israel an empty Vine , fruitful to themselves in temporals , and ( in su● gerere ) in such spiritual also as their Religion lyes in , viz. in empty forms of fastings , prayings , pra●sings , preachings , singings of Davids Psalms with Doegs Spirit . Text , applauding Treatises , talkings for Tithes , multiplyings of Ministers of the Old Testament not of the Spirit , but of the Letter , that may labour soundly to the blowing out if they cou●d tell how ) of the Qua. extolled light , magnifyings of the maintenance for such Ministers as maintain themselvs out of Augmentations by the Impropriations of Kings , Bishops , Deans & Chapters Lands , Tenths , first fruits , and such Levitically legal ●molumenis far better than they are able to maintain either the true internal eternal Gospel , which they are utterly ign●rant of , or their own external Gospel either against the Qu. who maintain the true : But utterly as fruitles to God , as full of leaves and broad Shews , wherein they flourish ; yea as barren as the figtree that God came three years together seeking fruit from , and finding none , for which the Word had long since gone forth effectually from the Lord ( but that intercession is yet made for it by the dresser of the Vineyard , who digs and dungs it in hopes of somewhat , but hath yet from it as small thanks for his great pains , as the unskilful dressers ( not to say devourers ) of it have great thanks for their small pains ) Cut it down , why cumbreth is the ground ? So what thou so pompously utterest I ▪ O. on behalf of the efficacy of the Letter in this particular as the All-sufficient , All-accomplishing power of God in its self , and to us ward to salvation , and such like , is nothing so ; nor doth any one of all Scriptures cited by thee in proof thereof evince any such thing , they all excepting that in 2 Tim. 3. which , as it may relate to an inward Scripture thou yet searchest not , if intended of the outward , yet not without the Light and Spirit within , which said Light and Spirit , thou still excludest and damnest down as detestable , and no way needful to be so much as concurrent with the Scripture toward salvation as is shewed above ) intend no other Word or Light then that which is uttered and shines within in the e●rt . Iam. 1.21 . expresly speaks of the wording rafted there which is able to save the soul , which 〈…〉 ●innate word ( for it s there put , planted , and sowed as his seed by the Lord himself ) some refuse and reject to walk by , whose condemnation it is , some receive it hear it , mix it with faith in it , beleeve in it to the salvation of the soul. In Joh. 17.20 . Christ speaks of the same , and not of any outward Scripture , for by that word ( their word , is intended the Word which they preached or held forth or testified to by their words in their preachings and writings as that which men were to come to hear and beleeve in , and do , till t●eir beleeving in which , though they sh●uld or do beleeve Historically the outward declaration , as the Papists do the litteral declaration at this day with their heart and confess it with their mouths , that the Lord Iesus was raised fr●m the dead , yet they perish and beleeve not on the Name of God savingly or to salvation : Which Word is not the Letter , nor their preachings , but that which the Letter , and their oral preachings testified to , that it was nigh men in their hearts and mouths that they might hear and do it even the word of faith which they preached . Compare Ioh 17.20 . with Rom 10.8 , 9. Which word that they preached , was not their Preachings or Writings , or Scriptures , but that which in their preachings and writings they called them to hear , which was not a word without , but the word nigh in the he●rt , between which Words and Writings of the Preachers and Writers of the Scriptures , and the Truth , Faith , Doctrine , Light , Gospel , Holy matter , which they preached and wrote of , if our Divines cou●d keep constant in distinguishing at all times , as they do sometime , they would come out of their conlusions , wherein they are found jumbling things on heaps without heed , into the clear understanding and comprehendings of the truth ( in their heads at least , whether it may have place in their hearts and lives or no ) that is , saving their being ashamed to own it from Babes , and chusing rather to be ignorant then submit to be taught by them , so often told them by the Qua. T ▪ D. sayes , It s evident the Word spoken of Rom. 10.8 . in the heart is the holy matters contained in the Scriptures , the things contained there , pag. 30 , 31. of his 1. Pamph. Rep. Who doubts of that ? But are not the holy matters one thing , and the outward Letters that write of those matters another ? the things written of , which the Scripture sayes are in the heart , one thing , and the Scriptures that write of those things another ? why then do you jumble these together as one in your blindly busie brains , which are so bewitcht that ye either cannot or will not own that from the Qua. without crying out of them as deniers of the Scriptures to be the Word of God , which your very selves are forced to confess to the Truth of ? For T.D. dances between within and without in the fore-named pages , as if he could not well tell where to be , nor what to say the Word of faith they preached is ; himself denies not from Col. 3.16 . which I urged , but that it was within the Colossians , but yet because we say its within , a light within , he will needs say , [ and so he had need , or else he could not out word us ] it s the Letter without also , the Word spoken of in the heart , is meant , quoth he , of the holy matters contained , 1. Declared of in the Scriptures , which are , say we , the living Word , Light , Gospel , &c. and yet in the same page the Word spoken of is without , or it is the Letter of the Scriptures , quoth he , also , though at the beginning of the dispute upon that subject , when I told him wee denied the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the outward writing or Letter written on paper with inke to be the Word of God himself , p 26.1 Pamp. he denied the same with me saying , You cannot beleeve us so simple surely as to affirm the Scriptures in that sense to be the Word of God , but we mean the matter contained in the Writing , &c. And p. 30. When I said the Scripture is not the Word of God , for that is within , but the Scripture is without , ●rging , Rom. 10. The word is nigh thee in thy heart . You read not all , quoth he , t is in thy mouth too , so that it is without as well as within . Rep. Oh gross , what an absurdity is here , as if that which is in the mouth of a man were not within , but without him ? if T.D. should tell mee of a man , that is no Monster that his teeth and tongue are in his mouth , and I should Reply t is a mistake , for that which is in the mouth of a man is not within , but without him T.D. would suppose me to be some Monstrous Simpleton and a doer of the said man no little wrong in making no less then a Monster of him , by saying his teeth , and his tongue are all ad extra without him , when they are no otherwise then other mens are , al orderly within his mouth ; but I must take this of his , who sayes the word is said to be without a man while it i● said to be in his mouth , for the voice of wisdome from him , or else the Qua. folly will not be manifested to all men by it , but much more of his own then all theirs amounts to : And so as wise as he is in his own generation byond the children of Light , I shall think my think of this to my self , and to let it pass with no more then this notice by the way to the Reader , 1. That as the word is in the heart shewing good and evil thoughts , there searching and separating between the precious and the vile , which is the work of the Word and Mouth of God there , Ier. 15.19 . so it is in the mouth distinguishing between the good and evil words there , in the particular persons in whose mouthes it s planted , and put for that purpose first according to the promise , Isa. 59. ult . My word which I have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever , from out of the mouth of which Seed of God the righteous Race , which are mostly babes and sucklings to the wise and Dispute●s of this world , Psal. 8.2 . Mat. 11.25 . It is secondarily to go forth , as the strength of the Lords ordaining against the enemy in the latter dayes , Jer. 1.9 . 2. That it is no news to me now that T.D. sayes in the mouth is without , which was somewhat strange to me at first , till I was acquainted with his quaint and coyn'd kinde of distinctions and sinister senses , and many unc●uth meanings , that he puts upon Scripture phrases wherewith to blinde people from being begotten into true wisdome by that which he calls the Qua. Folly , for t is his usual manner of expounding , and the ordinary meaning that he gives to these two terms ( In ) and ( Out ) to say by ( within ) is meant ( without ) and by [ without ] [ within ] for as he counts the righteousness of C●rists person without us to be in us to our justification whilst not inherent in us , but in him only . So the righteousness wrought and fulfilled in us by his power and Spirit not to be in us , but without in his Person only ; for Rom. 8.4 . in us [ quoth he ] imports not in out persons , but in Christ , p. 17. 1. Pamph. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which he thought had been 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Luke 17.22 . by in you , in among you without , p. 5.1 . Pamph. and so I.O. will have to be expounded in that place to avoid the dint of that Doctrine of the Qua who tell of a Kingdome and righteousness within men , that are not in it , which he confesses is used but in one more place in all the New Testament ( as he calls the new Letter of it ) viz. Matth. 23.26 . and there it s used for the inside of a Vessel , Cup , or Platter by Christ , saying to the blinde Pharisees , first cleanse the inside that the outsi●e may be clean also ; yet in Luke 17. it seems , quoth he , to be used in the same sense as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so making it thus the Kingdom of God , ad vos pervenis , is come to you , & a T.D. does ] within in effect to signifie without , Ex. 3.5.47 . and so in the place in hand in the mouth is without , quoth T. D. which fine new-fangled way of Respondency to an opponent urging otherwise an irresistible Truth , I should never have learnt , had I not met with these two Sophistical Shufflers , howbeit now I h●ve learnt their wonted way of winding away from plain truth , I shall t●e●eby learn at least to avoid it , turn from it , and pass away , but shall never learn how to walk in it , it is so crooked , unless I mean to leave the good way of uprightness to walk in the wayes of darkness . Now as to I.O. though often he puts a difference between the Writing and the Doctrine , and sayes the Scriptura formaliter , or litera scripta is one thing , and the materia or veritas scripta is another , yet rather then he will give the Question to the Qua. who care not whether he doth or no , which Question as is shewed above , he is not ashamed basely to beg , he will distemper and conjumble all that together again into one Chaos or lump of confusion , which he had once orderly set asunder , and therefore drives on in gross , without dividing between the Scripture , Writing , Letter , or Text , and the Word , Doctrine , Light , or Truth that 's written of , and earnestly endeavouring to blend all these into one . And though for haste jumbling and posting on he gets many a stumble by the way , whereby he layes himself on the ground , yet up again he gets , and on he goes , though haltingly , never heeding how he interfears , nor feels how he often hacks and cuts one leg against the other , hoping that so long as he stands not still , nor gives quite out , nor lyes flat , he rids ground as well while he stumbles on , as when he seems to slide away more smoothly ; but his blinde blundering● , in which he thinks he posts on unseen , are noted and seen by such as are not far behinde him , who finde him full of fl●ws , altering often where he himself supposes his work is most firm ; and what ever he thinks of it himself , yet to every understanding Reader he little les● then gives the cause in effect , not onely in other places ag●inst his will and unawares to himse●f , but also in p. 71. where is a passage that while it here presents it self to me , I must take notice of , lest I let it pass altogether , and finde not a fitter place hereafter to observe it in J ▪ O. It is the Writing ( quoth he it self it now supplies the roome and place of the persons , in , and by whom God originally spake to men : as were the persons speaking of old , so are the Writings now ; it was the Word sp●ken that was to be beleeved yet ( as spoken by them from God , and it s now the word written that is to bee beleeved yet ( as written ) by the command and appointment of God. Rep. all this I grant to be very true , but tending to the overturning of J.Os. own cause , and purpose in it , which is to prove the Scripture or writing to be the Word of God , and to the confirming of the Qua. cause , who against him deny that assertion ; for the Word spoken and written , even , as spoken and written , by Gods appointment is that which we say is still within the hearts of men , though witnessed to without in the Ministry of Prophets and Apostles preaching and writing of it , as that in which they were to beleeve , in which beleeving according to the Voyces and Scriptures of holy men calling them thereto and beleeved by them they thenceforth , and not before , were said to beleeve on the Name of God , through which beleeving in it they had life : but what 's this to evince the Writing to be that Word ●hus spoken , thus written of , which was another thing , which was as truly be●eeved in to life , before it was written of , as after ? Oh , quoth J.O. as were the persons speaking of old , so are the Writings now . True whence in his own words I argue back ( ad hominem ) on him thus , As were the persons speaking the Word of God old , so are the Writings now . Bu● not the persons preaching , no nor yet their preachings and speakings were the Wo●● of God they preached and spake of , but only means , by which men were brought to beleeve in the Word of God : What 's Paul , what 's Apollos , but Ministers by whom ye beleeved ? 1 Cor. 4.5 . Therefore the Writings now are not the Word of God written of , but only an outward means by which men are brought to beleeve in another thing then the ●ritings for life , even in the Word of faith nigh in their own hearts which the Prophets and Apostles preached and wrote of , that i● order to life men should beleeve in it . I.O. And now as to that Text , Heb. 4.12 . which thou citest also p. 85. reciting the words of it ; which are these , The Word of God is quick and powerful , or , as thou there , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , living and effectual , sharper than any two-edged sw●rd piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit , and of the joynts and marrow , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart . Rep. I cannot but stand almost astonished at thy stupidity in expounding that Text of Scripture of the Text of Scripture , and of that terme there the Word of God ) of the Book called the Bible , which the business of thy Book is mostly about , sith the efficacy and power of the Word here spoken of is far beyond that of the Letter or Scripture it self the inefficacy and weakness of which I have shewed above ( specially abstract from the Spirit and Light within , in which way thou asserts the sufficiency of it , witness thy own words above rehearsed ) as to any such mighty matters as are here mentioned . Is the Letter the Scripture sharper then any two-edged sword to divide asund●r soul and spirit &c. a diver into , a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart ? what thinkest thou by the two-edged sharp sword that goes out of his mouth , that rides the white horse with his vesture dipt in blood , and the Armies in heaven following ( not in Lawn Sleeves , Sarcenet Scarffs , Sattanical Go●ns , Canonical Coats , Scarlet Formalities , White Surplices , Velvet , Plush black Gippoes , and such like Scholastick Superfluities ) but in fine linnen white and clean , i.e. The righteousness of the Saints , Rev. 2.12.19 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 22. Is it the Letter , or is it the Sword of the Spirit a prime part of that Armour of God , Armour of Light intimated , Rom. 13.12 . Eph. 6.11.17 . which is the Word of God , and the sharp soul-searching , heart-piercing , living , life-giving Word that is here spoken of ? for it s the Spirit that quickneth , the Letter killeth and is dead ; the Sword of the Spirit , is the Spirit or words of Christs mouth , which he speaks , which are Spirit and life , not Le●ser , which Word of Christ , is the Word of God also , as Christ himself the Lord , that Spirit is , 2 Cor. 3. which was in the beginning before Letter was , and was with God , and was God , for the three that bear witness in heaven the Father , Word , and Spiri● are one , and all three Spirit and Light , and the Letter is none of them all , and these without the Letter are effectual , and wer● so before it , though T.D. sayes the Spirit was not wont to be effectual without the Letter , p. 42. of his 1. Pamph. but the Letter and its revelation is not sufficient and omnibus numeris absolute , &c. as J.O. darkly divines , to effect and perfect all things as to Gods glory and our salvation of it self , so that there 's no need at all of any other witness or revelation by the Spirit and Light within . T.D. indeed ( if any , save such as are bewitcht and befooled already , would be such fools as to follow his foolish fancy ) would ( and what Parish Preachers do not the like ? ) make men beleeve by his non-sensical blinde wayes of proving it , as if it were so at lea●t ( and that is a little more moderate , then I.Os. boundless elevation of the Letter , which hee makes little less than All in All that the Spirit was not wont to be effectual without the Letter , in proof of which his false Assertion ●e urges , Rom. 10.17 . the same Text that I.O. wrests the same way ; Faith , which is the Spirits work ( quoth he in the forenamed page ) comes by hearing , hearing by the word of God ; which terme the Word of God there . T.D. and I.O. and their Adjutants generally take to be the Scripture Text , though if any measure of right reason did Rule in them they might see in the same Chapter that the Word of faith , by which it comes , is that they preached to be brought nigh in mens hearts and mo●ths by God himself , that there they might both hear and do it , Deut. 30.13 . but so far is his Position from having any truth in it , as much as he stands up ag●inst R.H. who justly withstands him in it , that if his own eyes were but half open , he could not but see the flat falsehood of it , yea it is so palpable that before all the world I will here lay down the very contrary as the truth , viz ▪ The Spirit was wont to be effectual without the Letter : And why he should lose any of his Authority , power and efficacy by mens writings as they were moved by him , he is either wiser then I that can tell , or else very fond in asserting what he can tell no reason for : And that the Spirit , or Sword of the Spirit , which is the Word of God ( whether we understand it of Christ himself that Spirit , 2 Cor. 3. that quickning Spirit , 1 Cor. 15.45 . who is called the Word of God , Rev. 19.13 . or the Spirit of God and Christ , which is so called also , Eph. 6.17 . ) was wont to be effectual without the Letter of old , before there was any Letter for him to work by , is so clear , that t were to light a candle to see the Sun by to go about to prove it ; yea as I.O. sayes in a case that is clear ( I mean clear contrary to what he asserts in it ) Ex. 3. s. 31. so say I in this , ad Solem caecuti●● necesse est , &c. he must be so blinde as not to see the Sun when it shines upon him , that is ignorant of it , or assents not to it ; since as R.H. told him then it was so , so I tell him here over again in R.H. his words , with the addition of the long tract of time wherein t was wont to be so ; The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God , which was effectual [ two thousand years ] before the Letter was . And this I the rather assert against T.D. here in this place because he is so ignorant as to tax R.H. there for usual speaking non-sense , and for underst●nding non-sense as well or better then good sense , in that when T.D. said , The Spirit was not wont to be effectual without the Letter . R H. repeats him , saying thus , The Sword of the Spirit is ineffectual without the Letter which in effect is all one [ if T.Ds. eyes were well open to see clearly what the Spirit is , and what the Letter ] and then replies thus , The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God , which was effectual before the Letter was . Now I demand of thee T.D. 1. where is any non-sense R.H. spake , whose words I here speak after him , that I may clear them from thy unjust cen●●re of non-sense ; And if R.H. understood any non-sense , as thou sayest he did , then that must import that thy self with whom he was then in discourse hadst spoken some , for he could not understand that non-sense from thee which thou never speakest : Out of thy own mouth then at least thou art condemned for speaking some non-sense , if a man were minded to prosecute thee for it , for habemus Ret●● conficentem , we have it from thy self if it were so ; but though thou tacitly taxest thy self with non-sense , yet I shall do thee that Right this once as to clear and exuse thee from thy own false self-accusation , for in truth both what thou spakest , and what R.H. spake was all good sense , as to the intelligibleness of the phrases , unless thou account every sentence to be non-sense that is false as to the matter propounded in it , as in a sense thou mayest , there being no sense nor reason for it that any man should affirm and tell an untruth , and then I confess thou spakest non-sense , and R.H. good sense , Sith his saying was true , and thine was false . For the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God , and the Spirit it self , and not the Letter , as thou who art somewhat low and implicite , not very loud , me thinks , nor express as if thou durst not for shame speak out thy minde about it seemest to make it , was wont to be effectual without , and was effectual before the Letter was . But here 's indeed the very knot of the business , thou deemest R.H. to utter non-sense , in not being so non-sensical , as , with T.D. I.O. and their Chronies to interpret the Sword of the Spirit there called the Word of God of the outward Letter or Scripture , that is the thing will not down with T.D. without straining at it as a peece of non-sense to assert the Sword of the Spirit not to be the Letter , witness T.Ds. words of R ▪ H. T.D. As for what he says , that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God , if he meant like a man in his oppositions , he must mean Christ , who but once is called the Word of God , Rev. 19.13 . And Christ cannot be intended , Eph. 6.17 because he is not the Sword of the Spirit , but the Spirit his Sword rather ; for by the Spirit he works in the hearts of men , and therefore , Gen. 6.3 . he sayes , My Spirit shall not alwayes strive with man , which is meant of the Holy Ghost , as will appear by comparing it with Act. 7.51 . where Stephen tells the Jews , Ye do alwayes resist the Holy Ghost , Christ by the common operations of his Spirit strives with men , and by the special operations thereof pre●ails , with them . Rep. In this parcel is more truth granted to the Qua. then T.D. himself understands so to be , or will ever stand under the force of , when made use of by them against himself , for he sayes the Spirit is Christs Sword by which according to G●n . 6.3 . Act. 7.51 . he works operates [ in ] men [ mark his words ] and is said to strive with them that alwayes resist him , even ( in ) themselves . I could never yet get it granted from T.D. or any other contenders against the truth in this point , that Christ had a Spirit of his in men , by the operations of which he is said in those two Texts to strive with them [ n themselves ] for howbeit its the common Doctrine laid down positively by themselves unawares many times , yet when they meet with Qua. in verbal discourses , who urge these two self same Texts , and that in 1 Pet. 3.18 , 19 , 20. By the which Spirit Christ preached to Spirits in prison , which were disobedient in the dayes of Noah , &c. And that Ioh. 16.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. concerning the Spirits convincing the world of sin , &c. in themselves ; and that Ioh. 3.19 , 20 , 21. of Christ the light coming into the world , i.e. the word which is in mens hearts , there condemning the evil deeds , even in the dark cells of wicked mens own consciences , which Light is sent not to condemn , but ( unless men love the darkness more then it ) in order to their salvation , and that they might be saved by beleeving in it , vers . 17 , 18. And that Text also , Ioh. 1.9 . concerning the tru● Light , which is Christ , enlightning every man in the world ; all which places , and many more are parallel together in this point , among all the several sorts of shifts whereby to shuffle of the sound Doctrine of the Qua. this is most commonly made use of viz. that the strivings and shinings of Christ by his Light and Spirit with and unto the Sons of men [ which they dare not deny neither to be universal , and yet do own ten parts to one of the world too to be at this day without any true outward Gospel Ministry or Traditions by by men or Letter of Scripture ; O Rotas , where 's the beginning and end of these mens Rounds ? ] are not by any Light or Spirit of his that is in them , for that measure of his Light and Spirit within wee call men to , they name natural , imaginary , figment , Fanaticisme , Enthusiasme , and , ironically , that infallible Doctor , Qualitas nescio quae divina seu anima mundi omnibus mista 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , merae tenebrae , caecitas , nes●io quid , ni●il , nothing and much more as I.O. pleases , but by a Letter and Ministers of the Letter without them only ; he strives and shines by his Spirit , say they , and reproves and convi●ces the world that resist , but t was of old by the outward Ministry of Noah only a Preacher of Righteousness , t is since by the Scripture and Ministers of it that preach outwardly out of it ( though perhaps not one of an hundred in the world ever read it , or heard it preacht on ) but not by any measure of his Spirit , or immediate workings of any Light or Spirit of his within the hearts of the whole race of wicked ones ; these things are not common to all , Nequé enim spiritus Christi [ quoth I.O. Ex. 4. s. 21. ] Esse potest cum sit quid omnibus sommane , this Light the Qua. talk of cannot be Christs spirit , sith they make it a thing common to all . And T ▪ D. p. 2. 1 Pamph. you speak of a light that every man hath in all ages and generations . And p. 3.4 . G.W. saying , Christ was given a light to the Nations . T.D. denies that the Gentiles had been at all enlightned by Christ , unles you mean as God , quoth he , and say I , what should we mean else ? is not Christ God , and his light the light of God , and his Spirit and Word , the Spirit and Word of God before Christs coming ? But in the parcel above , we have it under T.Ds. own hand , what need we say more , or use more witness nnless , the false witnesses agreed better together then they do within themselves , and with each other , for vve can either turn each of them to himself , or one of them over to another vvellnigh at any time for an ansvver , That the Spirit is Christs sword , and by it hee works in the hearts of men , i.e. all men , in proof of vvhich , Gen. 6.3 . Act. 7.51 . are urged by T.D. himself , vvhich grant of his vve shall take and lay up against the time to come , that if he deny Christ henceforth to have a witness , a spirit , a light of his in the hearts of all men vve may wound him vvith his ovvn weapon , and slay him vvith his ovvn sword , vvho yet vvhether the Qua. meddle more vvith him yea or day , vvill , as to that life he novv live , vv●ich is partly in wickedness and partly in his ovvn foolish wisdome and unrighteous righteousnesse , be slain at last vvith that two-edged sword I am to return to talk of vvith himself and I.O. vvho are to dye to vvhat they novv are by the dint of it before they ever knovv the Lord , or that Gospel of his they both fight against , and then they shall learn that sword of Christs mouth , and sword of the Spirit to be the Light and Spirit within , aud not the Letter they are so loud for , vvhich Letter yet as an instrument or sword in our hands , vvho are acted against them by the Spirit , vvill furnish us sufficiently to slay them as to their silly senses on it , effectually enough in all Reason and Conscience . And novv vvhereas T.D. dreams that by R.H. his saying that the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God , if he mean like a man in his oppositions he must mean Christ himself , who cannot be intended , Eph. 6. sith he is not the Spirits Sword but the Spirit his ; and so thinks he hath it Cock-sure , that since t is not Christ himself it must be the Letter that is there called the Sword of the Spirit , and the Word of God , as if there vvere no third to be assigned as in opposition to the Letter : for this is his Argument in form , viz. the Sword of the Spirit , is either Christ or the Letter , not any third , but t is not Christ , therefore it must be the Letter . Reply . What if I tell him by the sword of the Spirit there called the Word of God , one may mean a third , as Paul doth in that place , that is neither Christ himself , whose Sword his Spirit is , nor yet the Letter which undoubtedly is not it , and yet mean like a man too ? yea verily be means not like a spiritual man , but smells lik a Minister of the Letter , and not of the Spirit that means it of the Letter , and not of the Spirit it self , for Spirit it is , as the Letter is not , and the Word of God , whether understood of the Lord himself , that Spirit , 1 Cor. 15.2 , 3. which is called the Word of God , Rev. 19. or of the Spirit of the Lord , 2 Cor. 3.16 , 17 , 18. which is also the Word of the Lord , and two-edged sword that goes out of Christs mouth , called elsewhere the Rod of his Power , the Rod of his mouth , the breath of his lips , the Spirit and life , Joh. 6.63 . the Spirit of his mouth , Isa. 11. and brightness of his coming , with which he smites Nations , rebukes for the meek , consumes and destroyes the wicked man of sin within , first in his Saints , and throw them as vessels that bear his name , without , in Myriads of whom hee is now beheld coming to that work , Iude 14. as blinde as ye are , neither to behold , nor beleeve it . And that the Sword of the Spirit is not the Scripture or Letter is evident , for it is something , even a Word and Sword , that was before the Letter , which only relates of it , and therefore the Letter is not it , unless a man will be so unmanly as to say the Scripture or Letter was before the Letter was , which were nonsense with a witness . Again if the Letter be the Sword of the Spirit , and Word of God , then there was two thousand years , wherein the●e was none of the Sword of the Spirit or VVord of God that Paul there speaks of , and a long time together , wherein Christ and the Spirit had no Sword which is most gross , absurd and sottish to assert , yet is not T.D. alone found in it , but I.O. also in the same [ for these two are seldome otherwise , if not contradicting , then concurring with each other in the same folly who p. 258. sayes thus of the Text ( unless he intend it of the Truth it self ] the Spirit of Truth , Joh. 16. and Gods word is Truth abstract from the Text , which only tells of it , which Spirit and which VVord of Truth was before the Text , and is where his Text is not , and then I acquit him , though by the Word of Truth he usually intends the Text and Scriptures of it ) as the T●xt stands now pointed and asserted , neither Jews nor Socinians shall be able to relieve themselves from the Sword of Truth therein : If by therein hee means the Truth declared only , I own it the Sword , for the VVord , which is Spirit is a Sword , but if the Text or Scripture , that is no other then the Scabbard . Besides the Letter , the Bible ye bawl for , is too blunt a business to cut so close , and search so the quick into the secrets of the heart , thoughts , soul , spirit of men as the two-edged Sword we are yet talking about doth , and too blinde a business to be denominated , as the VVord of God spoken of Eph. 6. Heb. 4.12 , 13. is , a discerner of the intents of the heart before which there is no creature that is not manifest unto the eyes of which , as that which we have mainly to do with , all things , are naked and bare : And howbeit I.O. as aforesaid is so dark , as p. 87. to tell us of its diving into the hearts , consciences , and secret recesses of mens mindes there judging and determining upon them , terrifying , sentencing them in themselves , &c. yet he wofully erres to ascribe that to the Scripture or Letter , which is peculiar only to the Light and Spirit that only searches the deep things of both God and men , and Satan ; and which reveals and manifests all things , and to which all is manifested and revealed : And howbeit he appropriates this all along to the Scripture and Letter , which he means all along by the VVord of God , yet if he did but well understand himself , he not far off ascribes the same to the Light , that both we and the Scriptures speak of , which yet he will advance no higher then to term it natural & the voice of God in nature , &c. for as p. 42 , 43 , 44 , 45. he tells how God by that hath placed a thing called self-judgement in us in reference to his own over us , and reveals himselfes the sons of men , and much to the like Tune ; and p. 81 : sayes it is by the light in the Scriptures ( which is , say I , that which the Scripture testifies of that t is in the heart ) by which the Scripture dives into the ●earts , and there determines , judges in the Majesty and Authority of God , yet the Crown still is stated on the head of the Scripture by him , and that Light it came from in holy men , which is the same , a small measure of which is in all mens hearts and consciences , whose external subordinate instrument sometimes the Letter is , is made by him , but the subordinate instrument of the Letter , by which , quoth he , the Letter 〈◊〉 and doth this and that , and effects and perfects ; all which yet to go round again ) contradicts his own excludings , in the other fore-cited places of his book , of the Spirit and Light within from bring needful , or any way concurrent with the Letter , but rather as fi●●icious and detestable . So th● Letter is the supream Judge only most perfect Rule , and Ruler of all , and transacter of all still as to mans salvation with I.O. who little heeds how the Revelation made by the light in the conscience is of an unexpresiably larger extent then the manifestation of things is that is , made by the Letter that came from it , for the naked Letter , or the light by it only manifests d● j●re the right of matters what is to be done , what not , what is good , what evill ; the Moral law shews the Moral good that is to be acted , the Moral evil that is to be declined , or else no life but cursing , but the naked ligh● without the Letter , that was within mens hearts , as it now is , before the Letter was , discov●rs not on●y as the Letter doth , de jure , the Moral good and evil , as I.O. himself confesses , and Moral or Evangelical obedience and righteousness that is the substance of that legal and ceremonies that stood in Typical Transactions and ou●side-observations ●or a time , but also over and above searches the heart , and shews to every man , de facto , what is , and is not done of the will of God de jure revealed , and accordingly accuseth or excuseth , justifieth or condemmeth in the Majesty and Authority of God , so that its particular sentencing of every man either to life or death , blessing or cursing , acceptation or rej●ction stands ratified , inalterably in the Court of Heaven ; yea hereby Christ shews every one , as hee did the woman of Samaria , all that ever she did , and what they do , and are , think or speak , and answerably either acquits or accuses , as 1 Ioh. 3. as our hearts condemn us or not by that of God in them , so are we justified or condemned , have boldness or bash●●●ness before the Tribunal of heaven , for whose sins the light remits are remitted , and whose sm●●s is retaines are retained , and the Ministers of the Light do by it judge the world that lyes in wickedness , and justifie the righteous , and we know their judgement is true , and their sentence sure , and shall stand in fore D●i as it doth in far● conscien●ia . But the Letter is too too weak an Engine to enter here , and too short a Sword to divide so distinctly within , as the Spirit and Law of the Spirit of life doth , which is the Light , the Sword of the Spirit , the Word of God. Which Titles I say still against T.D. and I.O. also are not to be all attributed , much less ( as they are by them often ) appropriated to the Letter of the Scripture , but are to be denominated only of Christ or his Spirit , either of which a man may mean as in opposition to the Letter , T.Ds. conceits to the contrary notwithstanding , and yet mean like a man and a Minister also ; for as Christ , whose Name is the Word of God , is that Spirit , & Sword of the Father , who is also a Spirit , with which he will wound and Rule the wicked unruly Nations ; to the Spirit of both the Father and the Son or Word , which is one Spirit with them ( for these three are one , 1 Joh. 5. ) is that Sword that goeth out of his mou●h to the consuming of that wicked enemy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that sits , as God , in his Temple both within and without , 2 Thess. 2. and both are the Armour of God , of Righteousness , of Light , which we are bid , and and said to put on , Rom. 13.2 Cor. 6. Eph. 6. And because it may seem such non-sense to T.D. to say the Sword of the Spirit is the Spirit it self , and not another outward instrument of a Letter , which yet we know the Spirit can use too when he pleases , though his operations are most effectual when he is heeded in his immediate workings within the heart ; for T.D. I wot judges the phrase improper to call the Spirit it self the Sword of the Spirit , and that that manner of speech must needs import another thing : let me ask thee , why so T.D. must it needs import another thing then the Spirit to say the sword of the Spirit ? why must it be improper so to say ? hadst thou had thy eyes in thy head , and thy wits well about thee when thou busiedst thy self about that Text , thou wouldest have seen the Spirit and Paul by it , whom thou wilt not dare to charge with speaking n●●-sense , though thou chargest R.H. for the same , speak in the same way of the who●e celestial Panoply , as ye use to ca●l it : Is not the brestplate of righteou●sness , shi●ld of faith , preparation of the Gospel of peace , faith , righte●usness , and the Gospel of peace it self in the verses next above , and the Armor of light , the light it self , Rom. 13 ? why then may not the Sword of the Spirit be meant of the Spirit it self , and yet a man mean like a man , and not mean non-sense , as thou wouldest seem to make R.H. to do in so meaning ? And now to I.O. again about the Text Heb. 4.12 . in which there remains one clause more , which , if he did not ad solem caecutire , shut his eyes against the Sun , me thinks hee could not possibly relate to the Letter , and that is this Epethite of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quick or living , and that so uncontroleablely , as he doth , even to blinde and obstinate persisting in it , for Ex. 3. s. 40. where hee infers the Qua. urging against his Letters being the only most perfect Rule on the behalf of the Spirit ▪ hee sayes thus : J Oj. Ob Scriptu●a est litera mortua spiritus vivificat , quis literae mortua nisi ips● fi● mortuus adhaerere velit ? the Scripture is a dead letter , it s the spirit that quickneth : who but he that 's dead himself will look for life from a dead letter ? Rep. Falsissima est ista assertio , scriptura est verbam Dei quod vivum est & efficax , neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur , occidit quidem , sed ido viva est . That is a most false Assertion ; the scripture is that Word of God which is living and powerful , Heb. 4.12 . Neither is the Letter any where at all said to bee dead . Reply . Verumne ? Itane ? Ocyus adsit huc aliquis ; is it so I.O. that the Letter is no where called dead ? what no where ? nec clam ? nec cum scrobe ? nusquam ? hic tamen infodiam : Some honest body come hither a little , and let us dig up and dive a little deeper into I.Os. own Divinity doings to see if wee cannot finde it so called there by his own self , if that be the same I.O. [ as no doubt it is ] that wrote the two English Treatises and the blinde Latine Theses about Scriptures ; in his own book for the Bible , which may be cogent to him however , in the 237. page thereof ( vici , vidi ipse libelle ) I finde I.O. himself saying thus of the Letter , yea and of the Word too , and that is more I dare say then any Qua. dare say , that they are both dead without the Spirit ; as living , perfect , in all respects efficacious to accomplish all as the Scripture was , Ex. 3. s. 28 , 29. so that there is no need of any other revelation by the Spirit and Light within , but those all are uncertain , vain , useless , detestable , &c. Now t is [ without the Spirit ] a dead letter , yea the Word is so too with I.O. as if the Word of God and Christ , which is Spirit and life , was sometimes dis-joyned from the Spirit : Take it in his own terms then Reader , lest thou think I wrong him all this while , The Jews enjoyed the Letter of the Scripture as they do at this day , yea they receive it with the honour and veneration due to God. Their possession of it is not accompanied * with the administration of the Spirit without which , as we see in the instance of themselves * , the Word * is a dead letter of no efficacy for the good of souls . They have the Letter amongst them , as sometimes they had the Ark in battel against the Philistines , * for their further ruine . Here needs no more illustration of this palpable contradiction ●h●t I.O. gives to himself , t were to suppose men that read his book to be Idiots to shew it more to their sight then it shews it self , so with his own ( in oper● lang● obrepsit somnus ) I shall quit it here , but not acquit it quite till he acquits the truth he quarrels with : Only as to his occidit quidem ideo viva est , the Letter kills [ for this he cannot deny being the Letters testimony of it self , only he concludes , as he is wont to do , the clean contrary way ] therefore its living ; I 1. deny his consequence , for many things are said to kill as dead instruments used by living Agents , as a Knife , a Dagger , a Sword , which when they have so done as in that subordinate way of an instrument , cannot quicken , though I own the Letter as healable and honourable an instrument as any is in the hands of men , when they are used and moved to use it as an instrument in the hands of God ; yet as dead a thing as applied by the stealers of it in these times , as it was in the mouthes of the old Theevish Prophets , of whom God said , They shall not profit people at all , Jer. 23. And as to I ▪ Os. labouring to lick himself whole of this with his litera occidit quatenus litera legis est ab Evangelio seperata , & quatenus à spiritu & ver● sensu voluntatis Dei destituuntur , qui literae adhaerent , quae judaeorum conditio fuit contra quo● eo loci disputat Apostolus : The Letter kills , as 't is the letter of the Law , and separate from the Gospel , and as they are destitute of the Spirit and true sense of Gods will who adhere to the Letter , which was the Jews condition against whom the Apostle there disputes . Rep. I say , Mutato nomine de te fabula , &c. the self-same is to be said of your selves against whom we dispute , since your condition is the same with that of the Iews , if once ye would savingly come to see it ; for li●era legis , the letter of the Law is but the Old Testament still , and not the Gospel , and the New , which is spirit and life , and a life-giving Light to them that according to the call thereof will take heed to the light for life ; and while you not taking heed to the light for life , adhere to the Letter , so as yee doe when receiving it with veneration due to God , yee fight against the light and spirit within for the sake of it , of the Spirit and true discerning of the minde and will of God declared in the Letter , and revealed in the light ye are ignorant taliter , if not totaliter , and as uttely destitute , as were the Iews . And now as to that Text which remains yet with one more to bee touched on , viz. Psal 119.105 . Thy Word is a light to my feet , and a lamp to my paths , which thou also appliest to the Letter , as the light and lamp there spoken of , and upon that account from that , and many more as little to thy purpose , and as much to ours as that is , lettest out thy minde into a long peece of dark prate about the Letters being the most glorious light in the world ( as if it were that in Ioh. 3 ▪ 19. which is not the Letter , but the measure of the light come from Christ into all mens consciences ) almost throughout the fourth Chapter of thy first Treatise . I must here have a little parley with thee about that , and the other places thou producest , which are all parallel with it against thy self , and so hasten on what I can towards an end , as one more grieved , sick and weary in my spirit to see thy confusions , then by the power of God upon me bearing me up under the ( else unsupportable ) burden of it I am in either body or spirit with confounding them . Those other Texts are , Iob 24. They are of those that rebel against the light , they know not the way , nor abide in the paths thereof , Psal. 19.8 , 9. The Commandement of the Lord is pure in lightning the eyes , Psal. 119.130 . The entrance of thy words giveth light , Prov. 6.23 . The Commandement is a lamp , and the law is light . Isa. 9.2 . The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light , they that dwell in the land and shadow of death upon them hath the light shined . Hos. 6.5 . I have slain them with the words of my mouth , thy judgements are the light that goeth forth . Matth. 4.16 . The people that sat in darkness saw great light , to them which sat in the Region and shadow of death light is sprung up . Matth. 5.14 . Ye are the light of the world , Job 3.20 , 21. For every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light lest his deeds be reproved , but he that doth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God. 2. Pet. 2.19 . a light shining in a dark place . Reply . Sure enough the man Catalogized all these together out of his Concordance the Series wherin he hath set them learns us no less , for else he would at least have joyned Isa. 9. and Matth. 4 together , one of which is but a citation of the other ; and it may evidently seem from his more Concordantial than Cordial consultations both here and elsewhere , that howbeit he set not all of them down ( hoc opus esset ) yet well-nigh by all places in his Concordance where he findes these Terms , Word , and Light , he incontinently concludes the Scripture and Letter to be meant , and so on that account as cloudily cotes as many of them , as he judges , as to number , may make a Iury , and so Hob-Nob , as they say , without mattering much what they are , so they Concord all in one in the bare naming of the words Word or Light , and mostly citing the Chapter and verse , but seldome the Truths that are told there ( as if he thought that most men would blindly and implicitly subscribe to his sentence from such a packet of Texts trussed together , and never be at so much pains as to search them all ) he Impannels them presently about his business , hoping they will all agree to give Verdict for him , when as how sweet an harmony soever they have among themselves that way , where their Verdict passes , yet they Concord all in one to contradict him , ( saving I.Os. strong confidence in them , such a joynt concurrence to the contrary have every one of these twelve Texts of his own taking ; for though he subscribe them all to that his sophistical Assertion , p. 74.75 . viz. The Scripture , the Word of God * is light , in proof that the Letter is the light against such as deny it ( for none deny the Word of God to be the light that I know of , but I ▪ O. himself , who jeers of the verbum insernum & lumen internum , as figmentum horrendum , Ex. 1. s. 5. Resomnino ficta , commentum erasse excogitatum , Ex 2. s. 25. merae senebrae , caecitas , &c. Ex. 4 s. 17. ) so that where ever the Reader findes him prosecuting the proof of it under that terme of , the Word , saying , the Word is the Light , Rule , Foundation , and such like , he must be taken as intending the Scripture , Letter , Text ) witness both Title pages Proscripturis , A vindication of the Scriptures against the Fanaticks to be the Word of God , and of the purity and integrity of the Hebrew and Greek Texts ) though I say they are all subscribed in vindication of the Letter to be the Light , yet there is not on them all that subscribes to I.Os. sentence or judgement on them , but they all give their verdict another way , even for that which is Light , and the light indeed ( as we deny it not , viz. the Word , Law , Commandement , Iudgements of God , and Christs mouth , but not at all for the external Text or Letter of the Scripture , which issue forth ad extra from the said Word , Law , Commandement , Iudgements , that are ad intra , a great deep , and known savingly to those only that wait on God in the light within . But to come to some examination of his Texts , and of what testimony they give for him , beginning however with the first , and ranking the rest as I shall see occasion . The Scripture is light , quoth he , those that reject it are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lights Rebels , men r●sisting the Authority that they cannot but bee convinced of . Reply . That such as reject the Scripture are to be rejected and det●sted , I freely grant , if by rejecting thou meanest such a rejection as is in detestation of them , in which wise thou rejectest the spirit and light within , and all the Revelation made thereby , when of those means of coming to the knowledge of God , and to salvation thou sayest , Ex. 3 f. 28 , 29. Inania sunt ista principia cognitionis Dei , inutilia , periculosa , à Faniticir simulata , ideoque rejicienda ae decestanda , those are vain , utterly unprofitable , perillous wayes toward the knowlege of God and salvation , Fanatick figments , and therefore to be rejected and abhorred ; and in which wise thou falsely accusest the Qua. among others , as rejecters of the Scriptures , when thou mis-callest them , Ex. 3. s. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , haters of the Scriptures , as if they bore some spleen , or such spite to the Letter as ye do to the Light and Spirit , or more than to other writings , which yet we , for holy truth and doctrines sake declared in them , love and prize above any books , and honour one Chapter of them as more worth than twenty of your printed Preachments upon them : I say , he that so rejects the Letter or Scripture , as is above said , let him be rejected , and even Anathema Maranatha for me ; for otherwise there is a kinde of rejecting ( which the light is not liable to ) of the meer Letter or Scripture , that is not at all to be found fault with , much less to be rejected and detested , as that of those , who make waste paper of old printed sheets or leaves of the Bibles , and use them as they do other Scriptures or Writings , as they please , about refusely occasions . But the Qua. are not to be Ranked among such Ranke rejecters of it as the first . 2. That such as spitefully reject the Scriptures are ( though they are not so called in that of Iob ) Rebellious against the Light also may well bee owned , howbeit upon this account only , as the Letter , truly Transcribed that came from the Light , and the Light it came from are , though two things , yet so agreeing together in one , as to the same testimony they both bear to the same truth , that he cannot really and truly , whatever hee may seem to do , receive , own , and obey the one , who is found fighting , denying , rejecting , and rebelling against the other , whereupon as obedient and reverential , respectful , even to superstition , as I.O. would be judged to bee to the Letter , which he and others receive as the Jews do with the honour and veneration due to God , yet ( saving all these shews ) they are still Rebels against the very Letter , whilst so rebellious against the Light as to reject it with that detestation that is due to nothing but sin it self , and the very Devil ; for he that owns the Letter aright , must own , come to , beleeve in , follow the Light , that shines from Christ , and shews the good , and the evil in his own , by the fall , darkned heart , defiled , blinded , and benighted conscience , sith the Letter testistes of , and calleth men to this Light : As he cannot be said to fulfill and live according to the Letter , that lives besides the Light it calls to , so cannot he be said not to fulfill , or to live beside the Letter , who lives according to the Light it came from . But not upon this account can he bee said to rebel against the Light who rejects the Letter , because the letter and light are one and the self-same thing , viz ▪ the Letter the light , and the Light the letter , as I.O. dreams , for howbeit that be his sense , yet assuredly neither is the Letter the light , nor the Light the letter , but they are two distinct things that are no more Synonamous , or one in name then they are in their essential properties and proper natures , and that ( however in some generals , they may be one , and so omnia ' quia entia , sunt quid unum ) is in reality not at all . And lastly , in what sense soever such as reject the Letter may be called Lights Rebels ( which is in no wise in respect of the letter and lights being individually the same yet ( as is said above ) they are in no wise so called in that of Job , and if the Light had been as much heeded by I.O. as the Letter is lookt in by him without the Light , which only leads into the true meaning of it ; yea if common reason had but ruled him , hee would have seen by the word Light the Letter is not intended ; for to let pass other considerations that might be as cogent in this case , when ever , or by whomsoever that History or Book of Job was written , whether in his dayes , or after , by himself , or any other , yet that Chapter being a part of Jobs speech to his friends , it must be spoken in his dayes , whom Jerom on Genesis , Augustine , Ambrose , Philo , Plato , and most antient Fathers and Writers , Luther on Gen. 36. observe to have lived long before Moses , whom ye judge the first Scripture-writer , carried Israel out of Egypt , and so consequently before any of your Scripture or Letter , which ye now call the Light was written ; and that Job should denominate the wicked of his dayes under the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lights Rebels , rebellious against the letter long before any letter was written ( unless his own book , which yet ( if in his days ) must be written after that was spoken ) is such a trim peece of Teachment , and credible conceit as I could say more to , had I to do with another man , but to him I shall say no more but that which is his usual saying of what is at no hand to be beleeved , p. 244. Credat Apella . Thus much of the first of I.Os. Texts . Now as to the next that follow , viz. Psal. 19.8 . Psal. 119.105.130 . Prov 6.23 . I have said so much to some of them already above as may stand as a sufficient answer to the rest , viz. that by Word , Words , Law , Commandements , Statutes , Iudgements , Testimonies , Precepts , &c. In all those Scriptu●es is intended not the Scriptures themselves in which these things are declared of ; but the Word , Law , Commandement written in the heart , and the Iudgements ministred by the light on the evil deeds in the conscience , decla●ed of only in the letter , which letter bears no other respect or proportion toward that Word or Law which is the light , then the lantborn doth to the light that is contained in it , and displayes it self somwhat diaily thorow it , or the Glas-window doth to the Sun that shines & shews it self throw it , yet more obscurely then when it s immediately lookt upon in its native lu●●re ; for there 's a time wherein we see the Sun through a glass darkly and Christ through the vail , that is to say his fle●h , and the light and things of the Spirit in the shadow of the Scripture or letter , wherewith it is overcast , where the Sun shines more immediately to the eye , and the vail of his flesh and letter , and carnal Ordinance is rent , a more new and living way is consecrated thereby into the Holy of holies it self , where more immediately , or face to face then before , whilst in a Glass , beholding the glory of God , there is a more perfect transformation into the image of his glory , which is fulness of grace and truth ( a glory that the world owns not , but the Saints saw in Christ , Joh. ● 14. ) even by the Spirit of the Lord , or the Lord that Spirit , 2 Cor. 3. ult . so I shall need to say no more to to those Texts in this place ; nor yet to that , Psal. 43.3 . which is of the same nature whereby the Light and Truth that David , if it were his Psalm , desires God to send out , could not be intended the Letter and Text , for so much of that as he made use of for his own condition was sent out before , which was but little more then the five books of Moses , perhaps Joshua , Judges , Ruth and Job ; and t is but folly to fancy that he prayed that more Letter might be given out to guide him , who had so much of the light and spirit that by it hee wrote much of the Letter himself ; or if he did pray for more letter to guide him then was , I know no more was granted him unless what Psalms hee wrote himself , which the Spirit mov'd him to write for the good of others , for that of Samuel the Seer is mostly of him , and those of Nathan and Gad , were so also . See 1 Chron. 29.29 . And if Nathan and Gad wrote any to bee Davids guide , they are none nor of yours , being not in you Bibles , and so that light and letter he prayed for , is not the letter yee have and talk for , nor doth the Letter and Text lead any to the holy hill of God , and his Tabernacle , but to the light and truth it came from , which is it only , and not the letter , as ye have it , that came immediately from God , so only leads immedlately unto him . As to Isa. 9 2. to which though thou writing them in the rank , wherein they stand in thy Concordance , severest them by the interposition of a text in Hosea between them , yet I must joyn Mat. 4.16 . sith they both in the self-same termes relate to the self-same thing and time : I marvel not a little ; but that God is now proceeding according to his promise , Isa. 2.9 . to do that marvellous thing , even that marvellous work & wonder , and turning the wisdom of the wise into foolishness , and bringing to naught the understanding of the prudent , I should much more marvel then I do to see a professed Doctor in Divinity residing at the well head of learning and Religion dwell so deeply in the darkness , and in the Region and shadow of death , as to interpret the term of ( Light ) in those two Texts of no other thing then the Letter of the Scripture . The words are these , the People , meaning the land of Zebulun and Nepthali , by the way of sea beyond Iordan , &c. which sate in darkness saw great light , and to them that dwelt in the Region and shadow death light is sprung up . Rep. The juncture of time , of which this is spoken concerning the land of Zebulun and Nepthali , seeing great light , was when Christ himself the light of the world came among them dwelling , at Capernaum a chief City of those two Tribes by the Sea-coast , and shone ronnd about them in his own immediate Ministry . The Scriptures or letter which by the word , Light , there is by our great Text-man I.O. said to be intended , must be either those of the Old Testament , as ye speak , or of the New ; those of Old could not be meant here , for if they had been that Light , they could not have been said to have sate till now in darkness and shadow of death , neither could the light have been said , as it is here to have sprung up now so newly to them , for the outward Scriptures of Moses and the Prophets was sprung up to that people of Israel long before this time ; and those of the New , it could not possibly be● , for John the Baptist and Christ having written nothing at all that is extant in your Bibles , though Christ after this wrote something that is not there , and the Apostles and Evangelists having written nothing yet , for not one o them was called till after this , as appears by the verses following , not one jot or tittle of that was sprung up to them as yet , therefore what ever Light it was ( and what it was is well enough known to the children of the light , though not to the children of darkness that despise , and wonder , and perish not beleeving the work that God is working in their own daye ) ●et this I can tell them , which is as much as is meet for them to know till they live up to what they know already , and as much as is needful to the case in hand that it was not the Letter of the Scriptures . And now I am so near that , Mat. 5.14 . it is not amiss to step thither be● before I go back to Hosea , where the words are , Ye are the light of the world , which place I. O brings to prove the Letter to be the Light. Rep. I should sooner by the half have urged , Gen. 1.2 . God said , let there be light , and there was light to prove the Letter to be the Light ( for that hath a typical mystical reference to the true Spiritual light , that inwardly inlighte●s every man that comes into the world , then that clause of Christ to his Disciples , Yee are the light of the world , for that hath not the least tittle of tendency to such a thing , unless I.O. who is blinde enough in blending the Writing and letter written of into one individium will now grow so gross in his confusions as to confound and thrust a third thing , viz. the men that wrote some of the Scriptures , into one and the same individium with them , and so make a new kinde of Trinity in unity and unity in Trinity , which if he shall then ( letting pass that long tale of the doctrine of the Trinity in seven or eight pages together , viz p. 132. to p. 139. in which he talks , as T.D. and most Divines do , of he knows not whom , nor what , while he hates the light ) if I say I.O. shall fain such a new fangled Trinity , as Writers , Writings , and Word written of , and jumble them all three into one , then t is time to tell these Trinitonians their Bell ha● not Mettle , Nor the Tune of a Bell , but the Tone of a Kettle . But I.O. hath a saying I toucht on above whereby perhaps hee may think this unfavoury sound is salved ; it is the writing it self ( quoth hee p. 71. ) that now supplies the place and room of the persons in , and by whom God originally spake to men ; as were the persons speaking of old , so are the Writings now . Rep. Therefore say I , as the outward persons of the men , which I.O. reckons on were not the Word of God , so neither were , nor are their Writhings the Word of God ( Ad hominem . ) Ob. But may he say the persons of the Discip●es are here called the Light of the world . Rep. As vessels that bore the Name , Word , Truth , or Light of God to the world by the figure or common metonymy , as I said above , whereby the thing containing is called by the name of that that is contained in it or held forth by it , which yet either as to name and thing it really and properly is not , I can allow I.O. his denomination of the Apostles by that name of a Light in such wise as commonly by the said figure , but not properly , the Lan●horn ( in sensu composi●o ) together with the Light shining in it is termed the Light , which Lanthorn of it self is so far from being ( abstractively from the Revelation made in it by the light within it ) a light of it self , that its a dark body that can neither shew any thing else , nor bee seen it self , without it bee manifested by something else that is truly Light. But all this will lend I.O. as little help as none at all in his lame cause , who hath entred the lists with Qua. before the world to vindicate the Word of God and the Light to be the proper name and nature of the Letter , to evince it against them as to name and thing so to be , p. 30. of his Epist. and p. 73 , 74. that the Scripture both is so , and is so called [ or else it properly could not ] as having the very nature and properties of light , and Ex. 1. s. 253. whos 's dealing with the Qua. is de Scripturae nomine proprio , viz. titulo illo glorioso verbo Deo , quod nomen sibi vendicat : about that proper name of the Scripture , to wit , the glorious Title the Word of God , which name it challengeth to it self , and Ex. 3. s. 28 , 29. who sayes that Revelation the Scripture , that is abstractively considered of it self , and from the Light and Spirit the Qua. say is necessary , is so omnibus numeris absoluta , perfecta , ut nihil opus sit , &c. so every way absolute and perfect , and accomplishing all things as a Rule or Guide , as who should say the Lanthorn is such a sure and sufficient guide of it self in the night , that there is not any need at all of any other light , the naked Lanthorn is a Revelation , and will do well enough alone , so that there is no need at all of any other direction to know God to salvation by nor of the Spirit , and light within , which is superfluous , vain , useless and d●●estable . I.O. is never the nearer as to his cause for all that which I can afford to allow him as abovesaid . Moreover if men made after Gods Image , and truly partaking of the Divine nature , and begotten by the light and living Word of Truth from death and darkness into a real union with it self by receiving with meekness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the innate ingrafted word , ●am . 1.21 . by which they become incorporated , and as it were transubstantiated into one seed with it self . having the Image and glory of God seen upon them , and shining in , and through them before the world men , & before whom let your light shine , faith Christ , Mat. 5.16 . Is. 60.1 , 2 , 3 , &c. 2 Cor. 2. ult I say , if such men may be stiled the Light of the world , as Iohn Baptist was stiled by Christ a burning and shining light , Joh. 35 , 36 then whom yet Christ had a greater witnes● ; Wil I.O. therefore prefer the dea● copies of the writings of those living men , who wrote from the life , light , and Spirit of God moving , before , or at least into an equality with the holy men , who under God were the Authors of those writings , as they were at first , which now are but the fallible ●andyworks of , by his own confession , but meer fallible Transcribers ? or if he will , will any wise men of God become so foolish with him ? I trow not , in as much as the work-man is more glorious than the work that issues either originally from , or but subordinately through his own hands , the Writer more honourable than his meer writing , as Heb. 3.3 , 4. Hee who hath builded the house , hath more honour than the house ; for as every outward Writing or Letter , yee now have the use of , was written by some man , as every such house is built by some man , but he of whom are all things , and he that originally built all things is God indeed : Yet me thinks I sent not only I.O. but T.D. also , who is so a k●n to him , ( that in most matters here hee prosecues the same point ) unless where he contradicts him ) and hobbles upon the same notions , enthroning the Scriptures or outward Letter very high above the Church , whose children it immediately was pend by the hands of , and whose meer outward Engine , the outward letter is , insomuch that I.O. makes it not only dearer to God then the whole world besides , p. 171. but also p. 76. the very Darling of God so that his Church , whose servant the Letter is , and for whose sake written , is made by him but some subservant to hold out the honour of the Letter that it may bee the more conspicuous , rather then to let her own light , image , grace , glory , which is that of God , Isa. 10.1 , 2. shine out before man the duty t is , quoth he , almost the whole of the Church to hold up that some , time ; and when wee say the Church is a Pillar and Ground of truth from 1 Tim. 3.15 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which words Pillar and Ground should not bee taken for the supporter or foundation , nor inholder of truth in sensu Architectonico , which T.D. denies , ●e not dispute . See p. 356. See p. 355. but grant him his sensum forensem , or foreign sense of it , in which I.O. also , who sayes absurdly however that these words Pillar and Ground may in good coherence of speech refer to the words following , viz. the mystery of godliness , as well as to the Church , will take it in , and let them have it , yet what follows that the Church is but the Ground and Pillar to set the Letter upon , which I.O. calls the light and truth there ? and to hold forth only the outward literal publication , as T.D. pleads , p. 18 , 19. of his 2. Pamph. or the seat or place of residence for the Scripture as upon the Exchange in London are pillars and places upon which hang Tables and Proclamations ? in no wise surely , for though the Pillars of the Exchange are for support as well as shew , and so T.Ds. Simile doth not quadrare , nor run on all four to bee sure , yet , to give them the sense of a pillar to hold up or hold out only , yet that which the Church is the Pillar to hold up , that is hold forth , is the Truth , whether by , or without the Scripture of it between which Truth and the book they both sometimes do distinguish , which truth or light is the Foundation or Pillar in sensu Architectonico on which the Church is built , and not it on the Church as the letter is , which under God the Church , that gives no being to the truth or light , nor kindles one beam thereof as I.O. sayes , but only bears witness to it , gives being to , and so is in sensu Architonico the Pillar or Foundation of , though in sensu forensi of the light and truth only for the Church is more honourable then the letter , as the Builder , or that which supports the house , is more honourable then the house that receives being under God , and preservation from it , and its Prophets ; but its less honourable then the light and truth it lives by , and hath its being from , as a Church , in respect of which light and truth t is confest it is not a pillar and ground in sensu Architectonico , as it is of the letter , but in sensu forensi only , that is the seat , place or pillar from whence it is held out and shines , or as the Church is called , Re● . 1.20 . Zach. 4.2 . a golden Candlestick , that serves to hold out in life and doctrine , voice and writing , the eternal Word of grace , light , truth , and word of life conveyed in measure to her from the two Olive trees , or anointed ones , or sons of Oyl , the living Word and Spirit , that empty themselves into the golden Candlesticks , feeding them therewith , and from thence shining as God witnesses to the world , which two witnesses shining and prophesying to the Church , or Candlesticks , and through them to the world in power and much patience and sufferings , stand before the God of the whole earth , Zach. 3. Rev. 11. And if the Saints born of the incorruptible seed , the Word of God , which liveth and abideth ever , may bee stiled the Seed of God ; Will I.O. thence conclude that a corruptible Letter copied out by corrupt mens hands [ as the Scripture is at this day ] may be so stiled also ? The Word of God took upon him the nature and seed of Abraham , but never took upon him [ however he is written of in it ] the proper nature of a dead Letter , that was written with ink and pen by mens hands . There was no time wherein the Word and Light by which all was made , was made , or born into the true nature of such a Letter , but there is a time of its being , made flesh , and dwelling , as their food , in the Saints , Joh. 1.14 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( natus est ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Word was born flesh , and dwelt in us , Ioh. 6.51 . to 64. the bread I give is my flesh , &c. howbeit all flesh is not the same flesh , there is a flesh of Christ , that , if eaten with a carnal mouth would , as so , have profited nothing , vers . 63. it s a Spirit that quickens , even the words he speaks , which are Spirit & Life , not an outward flesh , much less an outward Letter ; but this is a great mystery when we speak of Christ and his Church , that eats his flesh , and drinks his blood to cleansing from all sin , and to life , as the eaters and drinkers of bread and wine yet do not , and are flesh of his flesh , & bone of his bone ; this is childrens bread , a knowledge too wonderful for our Accademical Scribes , and Scripture-searchers for the life , while they hate the light , who are so lost in their laudings of the letter , and hampered in their heads about their senses of the History , and taken up with tattle for every tittle of the Text , that they have not time to turn in to the light whereby to see it , and so miss the mystery of the Gospel , which is revealed only to them that live and walk therein by the light and spirit in the heart . As to that Hos. 6.5 . hee must bee more then Moon-blinde that takes the word Light there to be intended of the Letter , since the place sufficiently explains it self in the next clause before that , and expresses it to bee the words of Gods own mouth , the same that I have said enough to above , even that Sword and Spirit and Rod of his mouth , and breath of his lips and brightness of his own coming , wherewith he Smites the Nations , Consumes the man of sin , Reproves for the meek and slayes the wicked : T is true , he sayes in the first clause of the verse hee hews them by his Prophets , for hee comes not to do any judgements on the wicked , which hee reveals not first to his servants the Prophets , who go forth and warn them of the the doom that from the Lord himself is drawing nigh upon them , but t is the words of his own mouth , the light from himself that condenms them in their own consciences for their evil deeds , by which he slayes and executes his wrath and judgement [ under which they are left inexcusable ] upon them , which judgements are as a light that goeth forth , purging away the sin , and preparing a way for the Lords coming in mercy to such as wait quietly on him in the way of his judgements while they pass , as at the house of God they do , whereat they begin , till her Righteousness at last go forth also as brightness , Isa. 62.1 , 2. and her glory and salvation as a lamp that burneth . As to that Ioh. ● . 20 , 21. One would not think it , that had not seen the Lord hiding the plain truth of the Gospel , as it lyes open in the Text , from the wise and prudent , which hee is revealing unto Babes , that one of the Renowned Scribes , and disputers of this world , should be so confounded , as to conceive that by light there is meant the letter , since t is as clear as the light it self from the verses themselves , and those that go immediately before them that that light alone , which the letter only points to , and not the letter it self can so much as possibly be there intended . Where 's th Scribe , where 's the Disputer of this world for the Scriptures , that he cannot see the Scriptures themselves he is so scraping for ? is hee not a miserably be-moped , mis-led Leader that would lead men to mis-beleeve the letter in its Testimony to the light , which letter hath no higher end then to bring men to beleeve in that true light of the world , which it self doth but testifie of , which light is no other then that which shines immediately ( whether the glass of the letter be beheld yea or nay ) from himself , who is the Sun of Righteousness , into the world that is in mens hearts , condemning the evil-doer and his deeds , laying open to them not [ de jure ] only what the lusts of it are , and in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they are to bee avoided , even those of the eye , flesh , pride , &c. but [ de facto ] how far forth they are , or are not avoided , and accordingly censuring them within themselves , where the Letter cannot come in the inmost cells of the consciences of such men of the world , as live where the Letter without was never so much as outwardly seen or heard of ? is not hee of whom , and whose light all that i● spoken , vers . 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 19 , 20 , 21. recorded by the same Evangelist , Joh. 12 35 , 36 , 46. &c. saying , I am come a light into the world , that whoever beleeveth in me may not abide in darkness , and Ioh. 8.12 . Hee that followeth me ●●ark ) me the true light , Joh. 1.9 . that enlighten every man that cometh in the world , shall not walk in darkness , but have the light of life ? is all this and much more in that book , Joh. 9.5 . and much more throughout the Epistles of the same holy man , who speaks of the word that was in , and was the light from the beginning before any letter was , and of the Son of God , and the holy unction , &c. intended , and to be interpreted of no other then the little letter , and of no more then that little of the letter that was written by motion of that Spirit , which is bound up , and bounded within the brief bounds of your now hide-bound Bibles ? Pellibus exiguis Arctatur Fili usingens ? Pellibus exiguis Arctatur Spirit usingens ? O thou that art named , Mic. 2.7 . The house of Jacob is the Spirit of the Lord so straitned ? are these his doings ? do not his words ( which are heard from his own mouth ) do good to him that walketh uprightly by them now as well as in former dayes ? Moreover the Letter is not come into all the world so universally de facto & actualiter ( for de jure & potentialiter it may by right and possibly enough be so transmitted , but that were too much cost for our covetous Clergy to bestow Bibles without coin upon poor heathenish Nations ) into all the dark corners of the earth as the light spoken of Ioh. 3. must necessarily bee supposed to do , or else it is not adequate to the case there handled ; for the Letter is actually seen and read but in a small part of the world ; but the world into all which the Word , that is the true light , is said to come both in Col. 1.6 . Joh. 1.9 . and in Joh. 3. which is parallel to them , is the whole world that lyes in wickedness , and every man in it tha● dwells in darkness , and shadow of death , yea where ever the spiritual darkness is , and that is in all mens hearts , where the Letter comes not among such as carry it under their arms , there is this true light said to shine , though the darkness doth not comprehend it , Joh. 1.5 . I know the narrow pinching conceits of such as would winde the wide World here spoken of within the short circuit of his Church , or the Elect , which they confess [ though as personally predestinated to life , as all the rest are peremptorily to damnation without any respect to foreknown faith or unbeleef to be scarce one of a thousand , telling us a new-found world of men ( in the Moon of their own fancies ) and making the Letter , which they call the Word , the Foundation of that World , which God hath set up in this World , so I.O. doth , p. 48. as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Wheel within a Wheel his Church , and asserting the term World , Ioh. 3 to denote the Elect , a few in it only , as T.D. at the second dayes Disptute at Sandwich , to which he had his answer much what to the Tun● as follows , that if by the World , the Church , or Elect only is meant , then those six verses , viz. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. must be read , and rendred thus , viz. For God so loved the world of the Elect. that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever in all that world of the Elect beleeveth in him might not perish , but have everlasting life ; For God sent not his Son into the world of the Elect to condemn the world of the Elect , but that the world of the Elect through him might be saved ; He [ in this world of the Elect ] that beleeveth on him , is not condemned , but he [ in this world of the Elect ] that beleeveth not is condemned already , because he hath not beleeved on the only begotten Son of God ( as if some of the Elect did beleeve , and yet others of their very peremptorily elected ones both to faith and life might not beleeve , and so be condemned and perish ) And this is the condemnation , of those elected ones that perish , that light is come into the world of the Elect , but men , elect men , love the darkness more then the light , because their deeds are evill . For every Elect one that doth evill hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , left his deeds should bee reproved ; but hee , among the Elect that doth truth commeth to the light that his deeds may bee manifested to bee wrought in God. Much more was replied to T.Ds. dream then , then , shall bee repeated in this page , because I am here in talk with I.O. to another purpose about the Letter , which is not a little served by the inserting of so much of it here ; as occasion is the universality of this true light , I.O. owns to bee the Letter , may be transiently touched upon again before the end ; only thus I say here to that absurdity of T.D. ( who is not alone in it , it being the doctrine of most of our Modern Protestant Divines , the odness of which , which I need not bid any one that is well in his wits to behold , I shall leave to all men , among whom if any will bee ignorant let him be ignorant , if any be honest he will see it in due time ) that the word World , which is sometimes used to express the whole fabrick of the Vniverse , Matth. 16.26 . and sometimes [ when predicated of persons ] all men good and bad , as here , Ioh. 3.1.16 , 17 , 19. and sometimes for the major part of men , which are the worst , lying in wickedness , and wondring after the beast , or at best in but a form of Christianity , 1 Ioh 5. Rev. 13. and sometimes for the whole Race of the wicked , abstract from the Righteous seed , which are the fewest , Ioh. 17. yet I here summon all men in the World , to shew so much as one Text wherin is used to express a minor part of men , unless by an Hyperbole , as Behold the World is gone out after him , or one at all wherein it s used to express the Saints , Church , or Elect in a sense abstract from , or exclusively of the wicked , and I shall yeeld they have shewed me more then ever I could yet finde at least , though t will be little to disprove the universality of Christs light in all men . Till then that that is done ( not tri●●ingly , nor seemingly for a shew , but solidly , seriously , conscientiously , cogently , irresistibly and substantially I must be excused if their mundus electorum ex mundo electus [ as they speak ] which is one of the many Chris-cross Round Os that I.O. and T.D. dance together in among other Divines in their Divinity Doctrines , do pass for me under that most proper name that I.O. himself gives it of a Wheel in a Wheel indeed . But lastly , that the universality and large extent of the light , Ioh. 3.20 , 21. said by I.O. to be the Letter , is such as the Letter is not adequate unto , and therefore cannot be meant by it , let the two verses answer it themselves , and let the first of them speak first on behalf of both . Every one that doth evill hatetht he light , neither cometh to the light , left his deeds should bee reproved , but he that doth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be manifested that they are wrought in God. Rep. 1. This light , whatever it is , is hated , avoided , a●d shunned by every one that doth evil , therefore it cannot be the Letter of the Scripture ; in various respects , 1 Because abstract from the Doctrine , teaching , and light of Christ , which is in the heart and conscience , the Letter i neither hated , nor shunned , nor feared by the evil doer nor need be , for fear his deeds should be reproved by it , for though de jure the Light by the Letter sometimes , and sometimes without it manifest , evill deeds [ for the works of the flesh , as well as the fruits of the Spirit are manifested , the Letter saith , and that all that is reproved is manifested by the light , not the letter it self , and what ever doth make manifest is the light , Gal. 5. Eph. 5. ] yet that by which ( de facto ) his deeds , i.e. every mans own deeds are reproved if evill , and manifested so himself to be good , is the light in his conscience without the Letter , which , as well without the Letter as with it , shews moral good and evill , and without the Letter ever shews every mans own deeds de facto to himself , and that from God , as I.O. confesses a man needs no witness without him to assure him that what his conscience speaks , it speaks from God , &c. p. 45. if he be in deceit it will tell him , yea in short by this light there Christ shews , as he did the woman of Samaria , all that ever they did , which thing the light as shining without in the Letter only , doth not , much less the Letter without it , for that tells only what men should have done , not what de facto they have done within themselves ; so that evill ones need not much more fear coming to that alone , then a Thief in the night need fear being discovered by a dark Lanthorn , that hangs up without a candle in it ; for the Letter alone is but as the Lanthorn , and t is as evident that thousands of evill doers , who hate the light , and dare not come to it , are not ash●med , nor afraid of comming near the Letter ; they couzen , cheat , are bloody , cruel , proud , and wicked , steal , lye , swear , commit adultery , &c. yet read , hear , love to look in the Letter , buy Bibles , applaud it , preach from it , plead for it , are proud of it , yea who more busie about the Bible , and in a more uncessant search of , & endless scraping for more the Scriptures then licentious luxurious , lascivious , ambitious , unrighteous , murderous , envious , maliciou , lying , persecuting Schollers , and Bible-binders , that hate light , which reproves their evill deeds , which those that love truth in the inward parts love and come to ; yea our professing Christians that say they are the Iews , and are not , but do lye , and are the Synagogue of Satan , are Iews in this p●i●t at least of searching Scripture , and looking into the Letter for life , which testifie of Christ as the life , to whom they will not come in his own light that they may have it and of talking from the Letter of Christ the Son of God , yet refusing to hear his voice , when hee speaks to them in their own hearts , and thereby leaves them without cloak for their sin , and seeing and hating both Christ and his Father in the light that shews them , as much as Christ and his children hate the Devil , and his deeds . Finally , as the Text sayes , every evill doer in the world hates the light , but there are millions of evill doers that neither love nor hate the Letter , nor the Bible , which they never so much as saw or heard of , therefore the Letter cannot be the light here spoken of , men cannot hate that they have no way heard of , as neither can they love or desire it , for there is no odium toward that at all , which is no way known at all , neither savingly , nor otherwise , as there is ignoti null a cupido . A word lastly to 2 Pet. 1.19 . and then I have done at present with I. Os. whole dozen of his own chusing which agree altogether as one to give their Iudgement or juridical verdit against him . As to this Text therefore which with the 20 , and 21. vers . is no less then nine , or ten times over rehearsed one where , or others in thy book , I have had it so often under my eye that I have hardly forbore so long from talking with thee about it , and there is yet a place behinde whereunto I thought I might have reserved the examination of it , it being there urged with two more , in the way thou callest Inartificial , ●in proof of the Scriptures being the Word of God , p. 65 , 66. But now I shall here consider it whilst , it s under my hand , where it s urged in vindication of the Letter to bee the Light , which Letter if it be the Light there spoken of , then I will yeeld it to be the Word of God there spoken of also , for I shall grant its both of these if either , and if it be not both , thou must needs grant its neither : the verse runs thus , But we have a more sure word of Propesie or Prophetical word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to which ye do well to give heed , as unto a light that shineth in a dark place , untill the day dawn , and the day star arise in your hearts . And the two that follow it thus , for no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation , for the Prophesie came not at any time by the will of man , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Spirit . Rep. Thy often repetition of this Scripture upon every occasion imports the great stress thou puttest upon it , and how great store thou settest by it , as to the proof of the Scriptures being the Word of Prophesie , and the light shining in the dark place of mens hearts here mentioned , which Text with the Context both which thou improvest to the uttermost will s●rve us rather to reprove thy ignorance of Gods Word by , and to prove thy heart to bee still a dark place , then serve thee from which to prove the Scripture to bee the Word of God , or to be the light here said to shine in the dark place there spoken of which is the heart , Exitus acta probat . From this Text considered , together with the Context , thou confidently concludest , assertest and insistest on five things . 1. That all the Scripture , Letter , or Writing , in the original Texts of it , which is now bound up in your Bibles , and commonly called the Scriptures , was written at fi●st by holy men as they were acted in it by the immediate inspiration of the Spirit of God , and this I shall neither deny , nor put thee to prove , though if I should , I see where thou wouldest falter , and be foundred in it ; but ( to let that pass here ) this I am sure enough of , that this place proves no such matter , as that ( as t is above laid down ) neither in Terminis , nor by Consequence , for though it sayes holy men of God spake of old , i.e. Prophesied as moved by the holy Spirit , yet it from thence follows not , that all that ever holy men of God wrote in point of History , Chronicle , &c nor Prophesie neither , was written by the same immmediate impulse of the Spirit on the spirits of the Penmen of all that is there , for some was written from the mouth of such as were inspired by the hands of others that were not the men inspired , nor moved to give forth the burden of the word of Prophesie that was on them , as Baruch wrote from Ieremies mouth , Tertius from Pauls , and so others ; what they spake , and was written by , and from them was one thing , and the Writing or Scripture of that true Word is another , which yet I own to bee of God , as far as ye can from it , or any other rationally assert the Text to be , even in matter of Chronicle or Story , wherein men may possibly write true Scriptures of things done in their times , and times before them from Records and other principles , without that immediate inspiration or dictation of every Iota or Tittle to them , as thou Tatlest somewhere , from the holy Spirit of God : And lest thou shouldest not take this for truth to me , who am here in contest with thee , being prejudiced against me , hear what thy fel●ow-fighter against the Qua. T.D. sayes ( for I can almost at any time , as Paul did the Pharisees and Sadduces , who when they were both upon the back of him threw a bone , that set them together by the ears between themselves , and so save himself add his testimony to the truth from them both , Act. 23.6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. ) set our Stribes , Pharsees and Seducers at oddes within themselves , and send them to learn the truth we tell , and they will not take from us , from the testimony of one another ; which T.D. saith it follows not that because Books are the Books of Prophets , therefore they are divinely inspired , for they might as well write from their own spirits , or upon human credit , as sometimes speak from their own spirits , p 43. of his 1. Pamph. 2. That none of all the Scripture , Letter or Writing aforesaid , is of private interpretation , that i● , neither to be interpreted as meer private mens Writings written as other mens are p. 9. the figment and imagination of whose hearts are the foundation of all they speak . And this I as readily grant they are not to be deemed as thine , T. Ds and some other mens are , who in your private , narrow conceptions and thoughts of things thrust out what yee tkinke , feign , and fancy still to be truth ( though nothing so ) about both the Scriptures , and many other matters , for they are true Scriptures of holy , publick spirited men , who wrote , or caused to be written what was known and surely beleveed , Luke 1.1 . at least among Saints , who were no liars , if not all at the immediate moti●n of the Spirit , they declared the things they had seen , heard , and witnessed within themselves to be the truth , even when they wro●e from others in matter of Doctrine , Prophesie , or so , and in Chronicle either immediately , or from more credible testimony then I.O. and T.D. when they write at all adventure upon leastly hear-sayes , from very go●d hands , when the matters are , in point of fact , many , if not most of them , very lyes . And in this sense thou strivest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be taken , which thou sayest some think is put for , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 19 , 20. and one Copy read● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by an evident error or mistake without ground , * and much more ado then needs thou there makest to have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denote the writing of the Scriptures to be by men that were moved by the publick Spirit of God and not by mans private Spirit , nor at his will , but Gods , which I grant , and a little more too ( whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifie so much or not ) viz. That it neither is to be interpreted ( now it is so given forth ) at the Will of man , or by mans private spirit , or by our own co●si●●ration of its sense and meaning , p. 21. which sense I see thou wouldest fain exclude 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from bearing , or having in any tollerable sense affixed to it ( and I cannot blame thee as thy principles are , for else thou who deniest the presence and guidance of the infallible Spirit to all men in these dayes must cut off thy self , and fellow Doctors , Divines and Expositors of the Scriptures from medling much by your own conceptions , thoughts , understandings , and wills to interpret , open , or give your senses and fancies on them , by which craft you have your wealth ) but only & alone by the publick Spirit of God , which gave them out , and only knows , his own minde and meaning , and reveals it to those that walk therein , and not after the flesh , as ye do , For we ( saith Paul of himself , and those Ministers ) have the minde of Christ , 1 Cor. 2. So I give thee thy sense , and more then thou wouldest willingly have as concerning the int●rpreting of the Scripture , which men in their private thoughts are not to expound , nor yet to deem it as meer private mens Writings . Howbeit none of all this comes out of this place so clearly as thou conceivest , for it speaks not of the Letter and Writing , so much as thou in thy private spirit interpretest it to do but of the Truth , or holy things written , for whereas thou , who doest not see that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one thing , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is another , takest the Prophesie of Scripture , it intends the Prophesie it self , that was , as to the summe of it , written , but not the Writing that is of it , which Prophesie whether written by the hands , or spoken by the mouthes of holy men of God , who live in the Spirit , was not to bee interpreted as the written or spoken Doctrines of private men , that speak and write from the conceivings of their own narrow private spirits , the figment , and imagination of whose hearts is the fountain of all they utter , write , or speake , but as the undoubted , infallible , eternal truth of the living God made manifest in them , which they wrote and spoke forth as moved by Gods publick holy Spirit . 3. That the Letter , Scripture , or Writing , ' or Copies of the original Texts , as ye have them at this day , are that Word of God , called there the Word of Prophesie , v. 19. 4. That they are a more sure Word in their evidence to us at least , though not in themselves , then any voice from heaven whatever , yea then Gods own , if hee should speak to us from heaven , or then that voice by which hee spake from Heaven , which Peter , James , and John heard , when they were with Christ on the holy Mount. 5. That the said Letter of the Scripture , is the light said there to shine in the dark place of mans hearts , with an eminent advantage to its own discovery , as well as unto the benefit of others . All which three last Assertions I not only deny to follow from this Text ( as I did the two first , which yet I deny not the Truth of ) but do as much deny them all three , or any one of them to bee Truth at all , as I do absolutely deny all , or either of them to bee possibly by any sound reason to bee deduced or inferred from this place ; and likewise affirm that measure of the Light and Spirit of God and Christ in the hearts and consciences of men , which we bear testimony unto , to be the more sure word of Prophesie and Light here testified to by Peter . And the grounds of my denial of the one of these , viz. That the Letter is it , and of my affirming the other , viz. that the Light is it , are clear from two or three clauses of the Text it self , which are proper , and the very import of the phrases , and truly and plainly agreeable to the Light or Spirit , or Word of God within , but not a tall true or proper , or in truth agreeable to the Letter without if predicated , thereof ; for First it is ( as much as I.O. jeers at the verbum seu lumen internum ) said to be the Word and Light within , and so the Letter without is not ( if it were either the Word or the Light ) therefore it cannot bee the Letter ad extra , which I O. labours for against the Light , and T.D. also who p. 45. of his 1 Pamph. cot●s this same Text , 2 Pet. 1 19. affirming the Scripture to be the sure word of Prophesie intended here , but the Light ad intra , wee stand up for against them both ; that which is said to be within , is not intended of a thing that is without only , as the formal Letter or the Scripture is , formally considered according to its proper name and nature ( as I.O. dreams ) or that proper essential form ( quae dat effeci , per quam Scriptura est id quod est ) which gives to it that very being , whereby it is what it is ; but of something that is really within , as the Light only is , which the Litera scripta , or Letter without declares of . And that not the Letter or Scripture formally considered , but that Word of God only and Divine Truth , Law , Doctrine , or Commandement , which is a Light and Lamp is within , as Rom. 10.8 . witnesses it for me , so my two Antagonists , I.O. and T.D. do both from the Testimony of that very Text testifie the same with it , and me against themselves , the one viz. T D. sying p. 30 , 31. of his 1. Pamph. 't is evident that the word spoken of in the heart , Rom. 10.8 is meant of the matters contained in the Scriptures , for the Apostle sayes expresly that is the Word of faith which wee preach , whereby it seems by your selves the Letter is neither the Word there said to be nigh in the heart and mouth , nor yet the Word of faith the Apostles preached , but some other thing , that was actually , properly , truly , and formally within the heart , even the holy Word , Law , Light , Truth , Spirit of Truth , and Doctrine , which wee together with the Scripture do testifie unto , and you ( contrary both to us and the Scripture ) are continually testifying against , and the other , viz. I.O. saying , Ex. 1. s 40. The Word in us is that Word of faith the Apostles preached , but they preached nothing but what was written by Moses and the Prophets , Rom. 16.26 . yea that that Word was a Word written the Apostle professedly testifies in that place , vers . 10. 2. The Scripture is nigh us in our hearts and mouth , not in respect of the Letter written , or the Scripture formally considered as written , but of the divine Truth , or as it contains and holds forth the divine truth it self . Reply . V. 11. Thou meanest sure , for there the Word , Scriptures , is named , but what of that ? and who doubts , or denies but that the Word in the heart was written , as well as preached and testified to by writing , as well as by word of mouth ? but wilt thou ever be so blinde I.O. as to make no difference ( but when it serves thy turn to do it ( as thou thinkest ) against the truth , for then thou makest a difference . See p. 12. 13. ) between the Word written , Doctrine declared , and Declaration , Book and Truth , Scripturam & rem scriptam , preaching , and thing preached , publication , and will of God published , proclamation of good things , and the tidings , or good things proclaimed and told of ? Suppose a man should stand at a Market-cross , or in Cheapside , and preach , publish or proclaim by Word of mouth , or set up a Bill or Writing that there is special good Wheat , Bread , Flesh , or the like , laid up under the custody of the Lieutenant of the Tower , enough for all the poor starvelings of the rich City of London where ( the more shame and wo to the rich Gluttons in it they ly perishing about the streets ) by him freely to be dispenced , who is sealed or authorised to that end , to give to all comers according to their wants , or in a time of distress or danger , that there is safety in the Tower for all that are willing to run in thither within so many dayes , or else the gates shall be shut ; for thus the Publishers of the glad Tidings of the Gospel of peace and salvation by Christ the Light alone , and his Spirit and Light , which reproves sin is the heart , do declare , both by Voyce and Letter , or Writing in their times , as he himself , Isa. 45.22 . Look to me , and be ye saved all the ends of the earth , viz. That in him who is the Light is the life of men to be had , and not in the Letter , which rather killeth , Hee is the strong Tower where safety alone is , Him hath God sealed to be the giver of the bread of life , and the meat that endureth to eternal life to all that come to him in that time wherein he shines in his Light. Now if people should run only to the Cryer , and hang alwayes on the hearing of his voice , or stand reading the good news in the writing he hath set up , doting on , and delighting only to read that day by day , because its comfortable , as it tells of good things , and never at all according to the counsel thereof betake themselves to the Tower where they only are , might they not stand there poring till they perish , pine , and starve , and would they not lose time , and perhaps totally withstand it ? and would yee judge them to bee well in their wits if they should run up and flock all together to the Proclamation or bare Writing , supposing to injoy the things themselves , though they never look after the said Lieutenant , spinning out the time limited in looking upon the writing , and so far dote , as our Dr doth that the coming to the Scriptures , is the only proper way of coming to Christ himself which he counsels us to , Rev. 3. as to think that their comming to that Paper every day is their next way to the Tower , their very only proper going to the Lieutenant that is required ? Mutati● mutandis de te fabula , the case is your own , O ye untaught , better fed then taught Teachers , it is yours , O ye more letter-lauding then letter-learning Preachers , and Priest-admiring people . Christ is come from God that men might have life , and have it abundantly , calls all to look and come to him for it ; yee like the old Scribes search the Scriptures , and therein look for the eternal life , because they are they that testifie of it , and of him who is the life , but yee will not come to him that yee may have the life , Ioh. 5.35 . &c. 2. What need I say more , but with T.D. and I.O. to heed and beleeve themselves , because they are so dull of hearing that they will neither heed nor beleeve the Qua. . for they give the cause in Question between the Qua , and them about the Scripture , or the Letters being the World of faith or light shining in the dark place of mens hearts , which Peter sayes men are to take heed to , which said dark place that is the heart and cons●ience , where ( by their own confession ) so gross a thing as a formal outward Letter cannot come , but only some more subtil thing then that is , even a spiritual light , as that is not , is as evident in the Text as the Word and Light it speaks of is to him that is not blinde ; for the dark place wherein the Word and Light here is said to thine , is the same wherein as the Light is taken heed to the day dawns and the day star , i.e. Christ him self arises first as that bright and morning star , Rev. 2.28 . whereby the day spring from on high visits such as sate in darkness , Luke 1.78 , 79. and at last as the Sun of righteousness it self , Mal. 4.2 . but that is said expresly to be the he●rt ; so far as from Ioh. 1.5 . we argue , Where the spiritual darkness is , which comprehends not the Light , within which darkness the light shines , There the true light shineth , but that is within in the conscience of all men , therefore there the true light in some measure is shining : As if the dark place within which the Sun shines be a room within the house , then some light from the Sun must be within the said Room also ; so wee argue Retro from hence , If the dark place where the day is to dawn , as the lesser light therein is observed , be the heart , then the place wherein the lesser light shines , which even therefore secundum v●s ( O ye b●nighted ) ones cannot be the Letter , must be the heart also ; but verum prius , &c. the first is true , therefore the latter . We have a more sure word of Prophesie , to which ye do well to give heed as to a light that shineth in a dark place , until the day dawn , and the day-star arise in your hearts . 2. The word of Prophesie , or Prophetical word is a phrase that of it self seems to any , but blinde Expositors , to intend another thing than the outward Letter , and to found forth no less then that more inward Word or immediate Testimony of Christ himself in the conscience elsewhere stiled the Words of Prophesie , or Word of God and Witness , or Testimony of Iesus , or Spirit of Prophesie from which , of which , and to which the holy men that were internally illuminated thereby , and made acquianted with Gods secrets , bare Record or Testiminy without by Voice or Writings , Rev. 1 , 2 , 3.19 , 10. the tr●e and faithful words of the Lord himself inlightning such as wrote the Letter , who , having no need so to do , the Lord and the Lamb being their light , wrote not by , though not against , the Directory of I.Os. outward Candle , Moon , or Sun , ad extra , i.e. the external Text of others Writings , Rev. 21.23 . 22.25.6 . the Words of the Prophesie of this booke , as Iohn calls it , Rev. 22 8. i.e. the inward Spirit of Prophesie or Testimony of Iesus , from which all Prophesie went forth , whether by voice or writing , which the Angels and Gods servants the Prophets had and kept . Rev. 22 9 compared with Rev. 19.10 . which book I.O. dreams ( 't is like ) was the outward Writing or Copy that Iohn gave forth , the uncertain Copies of which ( to say nothing of the doubts of the old dimn sighted Doctors , that were at oddes about the outward Book called the Revelation , and some others , even of those that are owned as Authentick , whether they are not spurious yea or nay ) only are extant at this day , little deeming that was an inward Book , which I.O. tells us of too , if he will own his own words , p. 9. 25. which Iohn took in at first , from which he gave out the the other , and prophesied in the way of manual wiriting , even the inner book of Gods secrets , which are only with such as fear him , revealed to Christ by the Father and by Christ to Iohn , and opened by Christ to his servants at this day who eat it and prophesie out of it again before many Peoples , Nations , Tongues and Kings , though sealed with 7 seals to the Scribes on the backside or outside of it , on which backside or outward letter , they are busily poring , but they cannot read it , neither learned nor unlearned , because it is a Book sealed , Rev. 5.3.10.2 . & 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. Isa , 29 9 , ao , 11 , 11. 3. That very Epethite , which to the Word of Prophesie here spoken of is annexed doth even infallibly evidence it to be intended of that inner Word Spirit and light in the conscience which the Qua. call too , and thou scoffest at , and not at all of that fallible external Text which thou art so talkative for , for it s called a sure , permanent , firm , or stable Word , which is more then can be , saving all thy blinde bable about it , asserted of the best , and most original Copies of that Letter thou contendest for that are extant in the world in these dayes : and not only so but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a more sure or stable word then that voice , which Peter , Iames , and Iohn heard immediately from heaven out of the Fathers own mouth concerning his beloved Son Christ the light of the world , given as a light to the Nations shining and shewing the will of God to them in every one 's own heart , & so Gods salvation to the ends of the earth , saying unto them , Hear ye him , v. 17. comp . with Mat. 27.5 . which voice coming from the excellent glory , which was infallibly sure to them , no cunningly devised fable they heard when they were with Christ in the holy Mount. Now the Word , Spirit , voice and light of Christ in the conscience is properly and truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a more stable , firm and permanent Word , or standing Rule , constant Canon , and lasting light , and so more sure to us ward then that voice to them , not surer in respect of its evidence to the hearers of it , or the security given by it that it was no fable nor fancy , in which sense thou most foolshly fanciest , p. 66. that the immediate voice above said ( absit absurdum ) was not so sure , i.e. not so certainly evident to be Gods voice as the Letter is certainly evident to be Gods Word ; for in that sense , the said voice was to them that heard it most infallibly sure or evident , so as nothing can bee surer to be God , and I.O. in saying [ as he dotingly doth p. 66. ] that comparatively we have greater security from , and by that written Word , meaning the Scriptures or Writing ( for that is the Word written with all along , such is his illiterate language ) then they had in and by that miraculous voice , as he calls it , and that the Scripture is more sure in respect of its giving out of its evidence to us , then that voice of God was , doth thereby ( absit blasphemia ) render the very voice of God himself whereby he spake in , and to the Prophets that wrote the Scriptures to us , less sure and certain , more doubtful and questionable whether it might not be a mistake or no , then the outward Writing or Text they wrote , as it is transferred to our hands at this day , through the hands of such a mighty multitude of fallible Transcribers , none at all of which no not the first were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infallible or divinely inspired so that they could not in any thing mistake by his own confession , p. 167. where I.O. confesses , and grants also that it s known that failings have been among them , from whence various lections , of which it cannot be ascertained to men now which is right , which wrong , are arisen , which so variously transcribed Scripture , it is shame enough for I.O. to assert ( as he doth , p. 10. under that term of Word by which he terms it , and p. 153 under its own name of Scripture ) that it is come forth to us from God without the least mixture ●r intervenience of medium obnoxious to fallibility ( as is the wisdome , truth , integrity knowledge and memory of the best of all men , or capable to give change or a●teration to the least Iota or syllable ; and more shame yet to say ( as hee doth p ▪ 27. ) that every Apex of it is equally Divine , and as immediately from God as the voice wherewith , or whereby bee spake to , or in the Prophets , and is therefore accompanied with the same Authority in it self , and unto us ; but most shame of all ( if he be not past shame so as not to see it ) in that he from this of Peter sets the Scripture , the alterable and much altered Copies of his Letter , his flexible Transcripts and Text , that are and may bee turned and winded , ( as himself confesses , p. 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. of his Epist. at the wills of Criticks ) into ●arious senses , not only in equality with , but into a state of certainty ab●ve the very immediate voice of God , that was heard from heaven , which true v●ice of God yet p. 66 , 67. hee sayes , to the contradicting of himself in what he asserts as to the minority of its evidence to us then that of the Scripture , hath t●at 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accompanying it , as evidences it self , and ascertains the soul beyond all possibility of mistake , and is that which we are at last to rest in as being discernable from , and obliging men to discern it from all delusions , though yet , O Rotas I to go Round again , the Scripture is that with him , that is ultimately to be rested in , and not the voice of God , which he sayes may counterfeited ; witness the same pages where hee bems in , and hedges up his speech concerning the infallible certainty of Gods voice beyond all possibility of mistake , and concerning our resting ultimately in that , a parte ante , with this saying , viz. Suppose God should speak to us from heaven , as he spake to Moses , or as he spake to Christ , or from some certain place , how should wee bee able to know it to bee the voice of God ? Cannot Satan cause a voice to be heard in the air , and so deceive us ? or may not there be some way found out whereby men might impose upon us their delusions . Pope Caelestine thought he heard a voice from heaven when it was but the cheat of his successour , must we not rest at last in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that accompanies the true voice of God evidencing it self , and ascertaining the soul beyond all possibility of mistake ? & a parte post , with this saying , viz. If the Question be whether the D●ctrines proposed to bee beleeved are Truths of God or cunningly devised fables we are sent to the Scripture it self , and that alone to give the determination . Thus ultimately we are to rest in Gods voice ; and yet ultimately we must rest in the Scripture , which is another thing ; for those that heard and searcht the Scripture , as I shewed above , never at any time heard Gods voice , though yet I beleeve I.O. to bee so sottish to suppose the Scripture or Writing to bee it , from which yet himself sometimes distinguisheth it . Now the Scripture , the Letter ( what ever thou sayest of it to the contrary I.O. specially as to the present corrupted Copies of it , which are your Canon are not Sure , much less a Surer matter then the immediate voice of God , neither 1 In that false sense in which I.O. interprets that Term more sure , viz. more unquestionable and undoubtedly evident to bee of God ; for if wee grant it to be of equal Divine certainty , as we need not , it being , as now , but the Remote issue and product , at the hundredth hand perhaps , of Gods voice in the Prophets , yea but Remote Transcripts of fallible men from the handywork or manuscripts of the first Penmen , yet to say its of greater divine certainty then Gods own voice is absurdity in the abstract : Nor yet secondly in that genuine sense , which the Term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most properly bears , viz. more firm , stable , stedfast , standing , permanent , or the like ; for the Letter is changeable , alterable , flexible , passing , perishing , corruptible at mans will , who may mistrans●ribe , turn , tear , change , alter , burn it , &c. and so flecting and transient ; but as for that Voice , surer then which I.O. sayes the Scripture is , which Scripture he calls the Light or the Word of Prophesie , and the Prophesie of Scripture , mistaking himself , when it is but the Scripture of the Prophesie , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . That Voice was as infallibly sure to its evidencing it self to them that heard it to be of God , as any thing can bee , though so permanent it was not as the Light within is , ●nd the Voice of God that is to be heard in the heart of those that take heed to , and turn not away from it ; for that particular Voice that came to them from God , saying of Christ , Hear ye him ; was passing and transient , not abiding , staying and standing , as to the actual ●udibility of it , but the Voice and Word of the Son in the heart , of whom the Father said , Hear ye him , this is permanent , lasting , standing , stable , sure , stedfast , alwayes nigh in the heart of men that they may both hear and do it , and this and not the o●tward Scripture , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which I.O. scrafles for is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the more sure word or Prophesie of Scripture , i.e. that that Scripture writes of , or the light shining in the dark place of the heart good to be taken heed to here spoken of , even the voice of Christ speaking from heaven , in the heart and conscience , of whom the Father sayes vers . 17. hear him , whose voice his sheep hear , and who ever hears not in whatever he sayes shall be cut off from among his people , whose voice which shakes the old earth and heaven , where it s heeded , it s more dangerous to turn from , then t is tō turn from Moses and the Prophets and holy mens outward Writings ; for these , whether old or latter , speak and write , though by motion from God , yet on earth only ▪ but hee commeth from heaven , and is above all , as Iohn Baptist said of himself and Christ , Ioh. 3.3.28 , 29 , 30 , 31. &c. I am not the Christ , I am but sent before him ; he hath the bride . I am but the Bridegrooms friend who stand and hear him , rejoycing at his voice , he must increase , I must decrease ; he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth , he that cometh from above is above all : See therfore saith Paul , He. 12.25 . That ye refuse not him that speaketh , for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth , much more shall not we escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from Heaven . Yea not the Letter , but this Voice , and light in the heart this inwardly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ingrafted innate Word or Spirit imparted , implanted , indelibly in mens consciences is as God and Christs Vicegerent there , both revealing what hee requires of every man ( as to his own particular ) and taking account of him also in the name , Majesty , and Authority of God de facto , how he answers it , which Voice or Light of God and Christ in the conscience is called by thee , p. 42 , 44 , 45 , 57. The innate or ingrafted light of nature , the voice of God in nature , and common n●tions , and general presumptions of God , and his Authority inlaid in the natures of rational creatures , and innate principles of reason and conscience , and such like , as if they were so de naturae , & de esse hominis , so flowing from the meer natural being of men , that they can be no more said to be supernaturally of God , then the very natural faculties of reason , understanding and conscience it self [ of which more an on both with thee , and T.D. also ] though it be indeed that very way of supernatural Revelation which thou sayest , p. 47. the Scripture is , that ( as now in the world ) is handed to thee by the meer improvement of men● natural faculties in the way of transcribing , printing , re-printing , as also studied by the meer improvement of your natural faculties of reading , remembring , understanding Hebrew , Greek , Latine , English , &c. to the begetting of a meer animal or natural knowledge whereby yee know things meerly naturally , speaking evil of what yee know not , and corrupting your selves in what ye do know naturally as bruit Beasts , for as a Horse or Bullock can finde the way to the Pasture where hee hath often been , so the Priests by use , course , custome , and concordance more than the work of the Spirit bringing all things to their remembrance , can turn readily to Chapter and verse . Which forsaid Voice or Light that God ( as thou sayest truly p. 43. ) hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men ( for the minde , heart , and conscience is as a dark place , as to all spiritual , moral and supernatural knowledge , without the Law or Light of God shining in it , and shewing good and evill ) is by thy own further Confession to thy own further confusion accompanied with a moral instinct of good and evil , seconded by that self-judgement which God hath placed in us in reference to his own over us , and that by which God reveals himself to the sons of men , and that indispensable moral obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his Law , and which is as effectual to reveal God , as his works are , to which there is need of nothing , as thou sayest , but that they be represented or objected to the consideration of rational crtatures , and bears Testimony to the being , righteousness , power , Omniscience , Holiness of God himself and calls for moral obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shews the work of the Law written in the heart , and is that by which the Gentiles , or Nations , that have not the Law in a letter , are a Law to themselves ; and more then all this by thy own absolute acknowledgement , whereby 't is evident that it ( even that thou callest the Voice of God and the Law written in the hearts of the very Gentiles , and not the Letter of the Law written without with ink and pen ) is that ingrafted word by every one to be received with meekness , Jam. 1.21 . which is able to save the soul , and that sure word ( as to it its evidencing it self to us ) or light shining in the dark place of the heart , and that more firm , stedfast , constant , standing , permanent Word or Light , or rule of life to us , then that infallibly sure and certain , though passing and transient Voyce , that in the audience of Peter , Iames and Iohn came from God himself , that is here spoken of : The said voice or light in the heart declares it self to be from God by its own light and Authority , so that there is no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses that what his conscience speaks it speaks from God what ever testimony it bears , or what ever it calls for from us in his name , and so speaks and declares it self ( not only more constantly , as it s ever with men but as to its certainty also ) that without further evidence or reasoning , without the advantage of any considerations but what are by it self supplied , it discovers its Author from whom it is , and in whose name is speaks , and is inlaid by the hand of God to this end to make a Revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , & is able to evince its own divine original without the least contribution of strength or assistance from without ; and therefore [ I adde ] without an outward Letter undoubtedly , though as undoubtedly an outward Letter cannot do all , nor any of all this without the Light or said Voice , Word , or Spirit of Christ within , which only doth , and can evidence it unto the conscience that the Letter , Scripture , and doctrines declared therein are of so divine an original as they are . Thus I have done with that Eminen● Text , which is so much talked on so little to their own purpose by the most eminent talkers for the Text of the Scripture , as that thing therein recommended to us to bee taken heed to , as the most sure word of Prohesie , the light shining in the dark place of mens hearts , the Prophesie of the Scripture , that is not of private interpretation , but spoken forth in writing in the movings of the holy Spirit , under which termes the holy Apostle intends not the outward Text , in which , as well as otherwhile by word of mouth the holy men testified to it , and held it forth , but that inward Word , Light , Spirit of Prophesie , Truth , witness and testimony of Iesus in the conscience , which their outward voice , words , witness , and writings were but a Testimony unto , and an external means to turn men to : upon the account of which Text in Peter , and the 11. other aforesaid which I.O. impannels as his Jury to judge the case in question , whether the Letter outward writing or Scripture is the spiritual Light or Word of God yea or nay ? I.O. makes such a full account to carry it his way , and to have their unanimous universal verdict for him , that the Letter is the Light , and consequently the most perfect Rule , and consequently the Word of God , that in his blind hasty confidence he cannot stay from stiling it so , till the trial about it be ended , and while the cause is sub-judice , and he but in his prosecution of the proof thereof , but by way of Anticipation , as it were , throughout his whole book , which is written mostly in ordine ad probationem as an enquiry after , and examination of the matter , he very often here and there , if not as frequently and commonly as by its own proper names of Letter , Writing , Text , or Scripture stiles and denominates it under the foresaid names of of the Light , Rule , Foundation , Witness , VVord of God , as its nomen pr●prium , which hee will never prove to bee Proper to it whilest hee breathes . And so hee runs on blindly in such over ample applaudings , and most mighty magnifications of the Scripture , that is the subject about which the Argument is driven on , by what termes soever , whether of the Truth , the Foundation , the power of God , the Rule , the VVitness of God , the VVord of God , &c. hee expresses it by , that if he were set to extoll and set forth Christ Jesus himself in all his Dignity , Authority , Dominion , Might , Majesty and Glory [ unless it be the express names of the only beloved and begotten Son of God , King of Kings , Lord of Lords , Mighty God , the Ever-Father , the Prince of Peace , and perhaps some few more ] I can scarcely suppose on a sudden that he could finde any other , or at least any more eminent Titles to dignifie him by , then those by which hee dignifies , not to say Deifies his adored dead Transcript , Text , and Corps of the Greek and Hebrew Copies of the Scriptures , which hee vermilions over with the honour and veneration ( as to sundry of the most excellent glorious Titles and properties hee attributes to it ) that is due either to God or Christ , or his living VVord , Light and Spirit alone : For howbeit every such particular expression of VVonderful , Councellor , Leader , and Commander to the people , Redeemer , Saviour , Salvation , &c. that Christ is stiled by , may possibly not bee used in I.Os. book to express the outer Scriptures by , yet I beleeve there is but little asserted in honour of Christ , the Spirit , the living Light and VVord througout the Scripture , which is not asserted , if not in the same , yet in Termes equivalent in honour of the Scripture it self . Witness all those most high flown phrases and eminent strains he flyes out and strikes up in in way of ascribing little less then all Authority , Dominion , Exaltation , Transaction , self-evidencing efficacy , Light , Power , Dignity and Glory , here on earth at least , unto the Scriptures , as if the Father had sealed it , and not his Son and Spirit to be the disposer and orderer of all things next and immediately under himself as supream Iudge , Rule , Ruler , Head and Governour over the sons of men , and the giver and dispenser of the meat that endureth to eternal life . CHAP. IV. ANd now I return to take more notice of what more is urged in his Latine Theses , as concerning the Scriptures being the only most perfect rule of faith , life , worship ▪ and knowledge of God as to salvation . The second Argument in proof whereof is its perfect operation and efficacy , Ex. 3. s. 29. omnia perficit necessaria , &c. it accomplishes all that is necessary to Gods glory , and our salvation , in vindication of which , a whole Dozen of Scriptures are urged , eleven of which are above answered , and one onely remains to be a little spoken to , viz. Isa. 55.10 , 11. And as to that of Isa. 55 10 , 11. I grant , That the Word of God , as the Rain and Snow comes down , and returns not without watering the earth , and causing it to bring forth and bud , and give seed and food , so it returns not void at any time without working that for which he sends it to any person or people , and prospering to the accompli●●ment of what he pleases ; but I am half amazed to see that thou I.O. shouldest bee so silly as to interpret that of the Scripture , since it so expresly speaks de verbo oris sui , of the Word of his mouth , which is asserted immediately from himself with his own voice [ so shall my Word be that goeth out of my mouth ] which Word expressed by his own voice speaking , who so upon second thoughts , and serious consideration , shall say the Scriptures are , & properly too , as I.O. excusing his ignorance , for as much as not for want of incogitancy , I my self sometimes so thought while I ran as our National Ministry now doth , making haste and saying he saith ] before himself had sent mee [ howbeit I wanted no sending of man ] or had spoke to me , or I heard his voice , I shall make bold to accuse him of arrant , Absurdity , miserable mistake , wretched blindness , and utter un●●rthiness to bee denominated a Doctor in that thing , which our Divines call Divinity . Nevertheless not having so well minded the matter , as upon occasion they may do in time to come , being carried in times past by custome to take things , and term and talk of them according to tradition , more then true discerning of them in their proper natures , the very preachers of this Nation , as well as the poor people that have lived on their lips , have been so habituated , by common Metonymies , to miscall the Scriptures by names not proper to their natures that they now stand up to depend them to be most properly denominated by those Metonymical and improper names ; so that howbeit we are never so willing to allow them to express themselves by such figurative phrases as are frequently found in the Scripture it self ( as Act. 13.27 . the voices i.e. Scriptures of the Prophets , are said to be read in the Iews Synagogues every Sabbath ) and that satisfies them not , but the Qua. are deniers both of the Scriptures , and of the Word of God , and spoylers of them of their proper names , if they yeeld not to their as absurd as arbitrary Appellations of them , by those glorious Titles of Gods Words , Gods Voice , as their proper names , yea in this dotish disquierness , and peevish perversnes of his prejudiced spirit doth I ▪ O. quarrel with the Quakers as bereavers of the Scripture of its proper name , because they own not his improperties , in ignorantly and impudently imposing the names of the Word of God , and the spiritual Light on the Letter as its Proper names , which it chal●engeth to it self from its preheminent participation of the nature and properties of the Word of God , and of Light , viz. Life , power , to quicken and save , and to shine to the evidencing of it self . J.O. I am now to deal against the Qua. about the proper name of the Scripture : for this sort of men are glad that the care of this business is committed to them by Satan that they may spoil the Scriptures of that glorious Title the Word of God : This name doth the Scripture challenge to it self . So p. 49.73 , 74 , 77. That the Scripture is light , we shall see that is so , or can be called so , unless it hath this nature , and properly to evidence it self , as well as to give light to others , cannot in any tolerable corespondency of speech be allowed : Whether spiritual , intellectual light , regarding the minde , or natural with respect to bodily sight be firstly or properly light , I need not inquire , both have the same properties ; it is spiritual , moral , intellectual light , with all its mediums that hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of light . Now the Scripture , the Word of God , * is Light , a Light ●hining in a dark place , 2 Pet. 1.19 . with an eminent advantage for its own discovery , &c. a glorious shining Light , an illuminating Light , compared and preferred ab●ve the light of the Sun , Psal. 19.5 , 6 ▪ 7. Rom. 10 18. The most glorious light in the world , the most eminent reflexion of increased Light and Excellencies : the Psalmist ascribeth light , power , stability , and permanency like that of the Heavens and Sun , in commutation of properties , to the word , i.e. Scripture with I.O. and an inexpressible exaltation of it above them , the light of one day of this Sun [ meaning the Scripture , which hee expresses by the terme the Word of God ] being unspeakably more then that of seven others , as to the manifesting the glory of God , nor doth it impaire this self-evidencing efficacy of the Scripture , that it is a moral , spiritual , not a natural Light. This , and much more utters I.O. concerning these Termes of the Word , the Light , as the proper names of the Right belonging to the Letter . Neither is I.O. alone in this , but some others I have met with that have stifly stood up to defend the Scripture or Letter to be the Light , the Word of God , yea verbum oris , the word of his mouth , and the Voice of God and Christ properly , and properly to be so called . Rep. Which sayings , O the contrariety that is in them to common sense and reason ! they may as well say they hear that mans voice properly , some of whose sayings they read in the letters of such as write what they heard him say , they may as properly say they are to own the voice of the Scribes and Pharisees for their Rule , as they are written down by the Apostles and Evangelists , sith Christ saith , They sit in Moses chair , all that they say do , and that they do now properly hear their voyces , sith what they said was recorded , as say that they now properly hear Christs Voice in reading some things he spake , as they are written by them that heard him speak them , and stablish , and canonize them , and other mens sentences , as the only standing Rule on this account , because God said , Hear him , and they now hear properly Moses voice , and must own his Law , that vanisht , as to the shadow of it , still to the Church a standing Rule , because Christ said , They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them . 2 O the contrarity of this to the Scriptures themselves , for if they be properly the Voice of God and Christ , then ( absit blaspemiae ) they make Christ charge the Scribes improperly and falsely , that they never at any time heard Gods voice , Joh. 5. for they heard the Scriptures read every Sabbath , neither could he say truly what he doth , exclusively of such as are not his sheep , My sheep hear my voice , if the Scriptures were his voice properly , for the Dogs and Swine hear , and hear the outward Scriptures read as well as his sheep , but his sheep hear another secret still voice of his , in all things that hee saith unto them in their own consciences , which the loud Brawlers for the bare Bible drown within themselves with their non-sensical notes and noyses about their Diana's , and si●ver shrines and Temple worship , and Church work , which voice and words of his are heard in secret with more profit among the wise , Luke 10.17 . then the cry of the Truth selling Spirit stinting-Scripture stealers among fools , which still voice of Christs ye● whoever hears not , and heeds not more then our heady high-minded Hypocrites of these dayes do , may preach themselves out a while longer , yet as the Ministers and Church of Christ , but shall ere long be cut off from among his people ; in the mean time however this is the improper tone they tune it out in when we bid them fear God , hearken to his voice , own that , as your only guide , his Word , his Voice , his Spirit , his Light , as the only infallible , sure standard , the witness of God himself , the Scripture witnesses of , and sends men to , which hee that heeds follows , beleeves in , obeyes , needs not be so restless by wrangling as the wrestless for , and wresters of the Scripture are about the Witness of man , though witnessing from and for God as moved by him , for the Witness of God himself and the Witness of Christ himself in the conscience is greater , needs not be so loud for a Letter , for the voyces and words of men , and the Writings and Revelations of holy men , for the inward immediate Voyce , the Word , the Spirit , the Light , Revelation of Christ himself in the heart is greater . True ( say they ) we must hear Christs voice in all things he sayes , abide in his Doctrine or Teaching , receive his Witness and Testimony , walk by his Word , live by his Light alone , bee guided and ordered in all things by his Spirit , which alone reveals the minde of God and Christ , without whose Revelation none knows the things of God and Christ ; but the Letter of the Scripture , the outward Writings of such as heard him [ as we do not ] the Hebrew and Greek Text at least , and Translation● , as they keep touch with them , these are that Word , that living , life-giving , powerful , heart-searching , soul-saving Word , those Words of his that are Spirit and Life , by which alone men must come to beleeve that Light to the feet , that Lamp to the path , that verbum oris , that very word of his mouth , that works and accomplishes all things to his glory , our salvation , that verbum oris that goeth forth of his own mouth , that hee put , according to his promise , Isa. 59. ult . ( as if that were the Scripture ; oh gross and shameful ! yet over and over , and over and over again , I.O. cites that Text to prove Gods promise to continue the Hebrew and Greek Texts entire without loss or change of iota or title of it to the worlds end ) into the mouth of the Churches Seed , and the mouth of her Seeds seed for ever , that must go out of the mouth of babes and sucklings , as the only strength against the persecutor to still the enemy and avenger , that sharp sword of his mouth , with which he will smite the wicked Nations , Rev. 19. That Rod of his mouth , or breath of his lips , with which he slayes the wicked , Isa. 11. That Rod of his strength and power sent out of Sion , by which he will rule f●reuer in the midst of his enemies , Psal. 110. That word that he hath spoken which God hath magnified ov●r all that is called his name , and so over the light it self it sprang from , which is his name , Joh. 1. and the s●fe strong Tower of the Righteous : That vis virtus Dei , power of God and word of the Cros● . That Doctrine or Teaching of Christ , which , continued in , saves the Preacher and hearers , ipsa doctrina , quam a Deo docemur . That witness of God , which who so hath needs not the witness of men , for the witness of God is greater . That voice of God , that 's more sure and certain , as to its giving out its evidence to us , then the very immediate voice which the Apostles heard God himself speak to them with from heaven , 2 Pet. 1. And all this , and much more exclusively and abstractively from that within , yea and properly too , so that the Word of God , Foundation , the Rule , Light , Lamp , and so consequently all the rest of the Ti●les are the very proper names of the Scriptures , no other then what are properly answerable to its nature . For in this wife I.O. drives on the business avouching that glorious Title of the Word of God , and the Light to be the Nomen proprium Scripturae , the proper name of the Scripture , and that I wrong him not herein see his own stating the Question between himself and the Qua. Ex. 2. s. 1 , 2 , 3. de Scripturae nomine proprio nimirum Titulo illo glorioso Verbo Dei , and p. 73. the Scripture is a light yet nei●her is , nor can be called so unless it hath the nature and property of light , p. 77. the Scripture a moral and spiritual , not a natural Light. p. 73 , 74. Light spiritual hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of Light ; firstly and properly Light from whence the other , i. e natural respecting bodily sight , is by allusion so denominated ; in these places either expresly or eventually , I.O. calls the Light and Word of God the proper names of Scripture or Letter , and so consequently en●tails all the other glorious Titles to it as its Right , due and proper names which they rob it of , and deny it to be what it naturally and properly and really is , who own it not properly both to be , and be called the Word of God , but it neither is actually testified so to be any whereby God , nor by its self ( as I.O. p. 87. most lyingly & falsely affirms it , in so much that he who owns it not as so ) doth what in him lyes to make God a lyar . And also p. 140. where he sayes , If the Scripture be what it reveals it self to be , it is then unquestionably the Word of the living God [ as p. 85. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the living Word of God ] Truth it self , for that it professeth of it self ( quoth he fr●m the beginning to the ending , neither can it possibly be so stiled properly , or unless it be by a figure [ as it no where is neither by it self that I know of● by which the Image is called by the name of the Person , which it properly is but a dead Picture , and lifeless representation of , the Lanthorn by the name of the Light , that displayes it self more brightly when beheld without it , which Lanthorn yet neither is the Light nor properly said so to be . I am not ignorant of that Common Metonymy Continentis pro re contenta , or figure whereby the thing contained is sometimes , but never properly where it is , exprest by the name of that which c●ntains it , and as well in that Scripture we talk of as in other Writings , Matth. 26.43 . and 1 Cor. 11.26 . If this Cup may not pass away except I drink it : As oft as ye d●ink of this Cup , meaning , properly , not the Cups , but the wine ther●in , viz. the one the bitter red wine of the wrath of the Almighty God , the mixture whereof is powred out into the Cup of his indignation , and of the fierceness of his Fathers fury , which Christ drank deep of in the dayes of his flesh and humiliation , to the drawing of supplications from him with strong crying and tears ; the other the wine of his blood shed for the remission of sins , which such as walk in the light come at last to be cleansed by from no less then all sin ; neither of which Cups or sorts of wine thou hast yet drunk of , or truly knowest what they are , by all the skill thou yet hast in the Scriptures thou so scriblest for , but shalt assuredly have thy part in the first , before thou savingly know the second , yea whether ever thou attain to witness the saving efficacy of the second yea , or nay . But what 's all this to the helping of I.O. in his crazy cause , whose fighting is not all for figures , or meer figurativ● denominations but for the formal and true proper names of the Scripture , which is the name of the Scripture , and not the Word of God , say we , but is , saith he , that of the Word of God ; had he fought for no more then figures against the Qua. that stand for the Truth , and said so too , though in so fighting he had been foolish , yet we could have born with him in that frivolous peece of ●olly , and have lent him such a latitude , as both by the Letter and Light may bee allowed , to speak Metonimically and Metaphorically of Methaphorical matters , and left him to his liberty without a check , and let him alone in his figures to figure out things by other names then their own , and to call them that , which yet properly they are not , to stile the Heus● they sit in by the name of the Parliament , which it is not , to stile the Picture by the name of the Person , it is the image of , the Voice by the name of the Word , it is but the image of , and the Scripture by that of the Word , it is but the remote expression of , and of the voice , it is the more immediate image or expression of , for vox est imago verbi Scriptura vocis immediata , verbi quaedam mediata imago seu expressio ; and to signifie the Wine and the Light respectively by the names of this Cup , this Glass , this Lanthorn , and the Word , and Law by the name of a Scripture , specially if by Scripture he mean that inward Writing of it by the Spirit of the living God in the fleshly tables of the heart , where the Law of God is written , though that writing and the Word written are not all one neither , and we could bate him the impropriety of that figurative expression also , though it be far further fetcht then the other , whereby he should decypher that outward Letter by the name of the Law , which it is but a bart Copy of , and the written Word by the name of the Writing , which yet in truth doth no more then declare of the Word & Retro , though I know not where in all the Scripture the Srripture is so much as by A figure denominated by that name the Word of God , if the Word be any where so called by the name of Scripture , as I.O. sayes ( at least fortyfold falsely ) that above fifty times in the New Testament the word Graphs or Scripture is put absolutely for the Word of God , but if it were a hundred and fifty times so called , it would not prove the high point in that height he takes on him to prove it in , viz. that the Scripture is properly the Word of God , and the Word of God its proper name , any more then the Wine is called by the name of this Cup , this Glass , or the Light by the name of the Lanthorn & Retro the Lanthorn by name of this Light , which is all figurative , not proper . But this is not I.Os. case , who runs up to the very highest peg , and sings of the Scriptures a note above the Ela , and quarrels with the Qua. as deniers of the Scripture , unless they swerve aside with him in his silly supp●sitions , and as well uns●holler-like as unsaint-like sensless sayings , that the outwar● Scripture the Writing , the Letter , and every Letter and Tittle , and Iota , though but transcribed , in it , is the Word of God , as T. 2. c 2 s. 5.6 . that tam in esse reali , as cognoscibili , Ex 1 s. 1. the Scripture both is , and doth infallibly evidence it self unto the consciences of men , that are not blinde to be assuredly the Word of God. See his first Title page , and T. 1. c. 4. s. 1. and that men that beleeve not ( as he implicitly beleeves in this ) being obliged so to beleeve upon the penalty of eternal damnation , at the peril of their own eternal ruine , and such like , are left unexcusable in their damnable unbeleef , T. 1. c s. 5. T. 1 c. 3. s 6. T. 1 c 4. s. 14. and who saith , That his chief business with the Qua. is de noveine Scripturae proprio , Ex. 1. s. 1 , 2 , 3. about the proper name of the Scripture , and to stablish it under that glorious Title the Word of God , as that proper name of it , which the chief business , committed by Satan to the Qua. that they rejoyce in , is to spoyl it of : yea how will all those figurative forms of speech list I.O. out of that Qu●gmire wherein he sticks , and into which he hath rash●y run himself by , his hasty quarrelling with the Qua. who is far from being satisfied , if the Truth and Doctrine of the Scriptures be confessed to be sufficiently declared in the Scripture , unless he be infallibly assured that every Tittle and Iota , as it was at first written , stands truly transcribed in his Copies of it , and so far from being satisfied , if by a figure it should be granted [ as it need not for it s no where called so ] that the Scripture is the Word of God that he professes , Ex. 1.34 . that if that Declaration , that Writing , which declares the minde and will of God , be not the Word of God , he knows not what is the Word of God , if he may not call the Scriptures by that name the Word of God , is so far Ignorant of any name else to call it by , as to call out to the Qua. to tell him what to call it if he may not call it by that name , Si hoc non sit verbum Dei ( quoth I. O ) ego nescio quid sit , aut deceant nos Fanatici quid illud dicendum sit , &c if the declaration of the will of God , i.e. the Scripture , be not the Word of God , I know not what it is , or let the Fanaticks teach us what we may call it ; these and many more to the like Tune are the eminent Titles , which I.O. not by a metonymy , but in truth as their proper priviledge , and real right , attributes in words at length , and not in figures to the outer Scriptures , these are the lofty terms , wherein in throughout all his Treatises he treats on their behalf , not with all others only , that are his Opposers in other matters , but with the Qua. also , who own the Scripture in its own proper name , use , and place , and own the Truth written of to be the Word much more , then he doth himself , but about the Scriptures oppose him only as to these his childish thoughts : Such are the high , rigid , unrighteous , strickt streins he stands upon , and stickles in , and that so stifly , that he is minded either to win all , or lose all , and if he be not owned as stiling of the Scripture truly and properly , when he stiles it by the names of other things , which truly and properly it is not , he will no more own it under its own true and proper names of writing , Letter , Scripture , but make himself altogether ignorant of these as if hee had quite forgotten , and could in no wise call to minde , that hee hath any other names at all whereby it can be called , save those undue ones of his own imposing . Now when a man begins to swell out with his wind of Doctrine into such a bubble as knows no bounds , its time to blow him out ; and when he grows into such a giddy , greedy , hydropical humour , as not to know what ground he stands on , nor how to stand still , and sit down satisfied when hee is well , nor well to understand when he hath enough , nor to slack his thirst with a just and lawful allowance , its good — Venienti occurre morbo : Danda est elleboritali pars maxima Avaro . As there is no reason that he should have all he desires , so it s but reason that his brain be purged from such excrements , as occasion such extraordinary extravagancies , that if he will never be otherwise then so fantastically Fanatical , yet hee may insanire cum ratione , be moderated at least as to his height of madness , be taken down a peg or two , and brought from his high Garret , into a lower Story about the Scriptures , that if , he will have no nay , but they must needs be call'd the Word it may be no otherwise then the Cup is called the Wine , which ( though , by a Metonymy the Wine is sometime called the Cup yet is never , or very seldome , if at all . For my part I am free , rather then he shall take on ad ravimusque , and cry himself hoarse , and wrong himself ( as he doth ) with so much wrangling , and restless wrestling for the Letter which he more loves to talk of , then lives the life of , and longs for , so that is not likely he will be at quiet , unless we still him by piping to the same tune with him at least a little , to please him so far to his profit , in order to the saving of his longing , as to allow him a little , i.e. so much leave as by the foresaid Figure to call the Glass window , or the Lanthorn the Light , which in truth and properly are not so ; but as that Taylor which having an inch of cloath granted him for his minds sake , about so much as will serve for a pattern , incroaches so as to steal an ell or enough to make a suit of , and from Top to Toe cloaths himself therewith accordingly , wou●d have no wrong to have his goodly garment torn off , or else beaten well upon his back with his own yard ; so if I.O. who begs the whole question , be not pleased with his poor pittance , which yet is the largest allowance that Truth it self allows us to allow him , but will be a chuser ( as Beggars must not be , and his own Carver , and carve out the Scriptures , which is more then ( salva veritate ) we can give him , or he can justly take on him to do , into no less then a patern , a lydium lapidem , a touch stone of all Truth , a standard for all Spirits ( even that of God , by which it , and all Spirits and Scriptures else are to be tried ; to be most truly t●ied by , a Rule , an immoveable , stable , perfect , the most perfect , the only Rule of Gods worship , and our obedience in matters of faith and manners , as Ex. 3. s. 20 , 24 , 25. Ex. 1. s. 5 , 6. Ex. 3. s. 32. Ex. 4. s. 17. so that since the Churches compleating of its Canon , no Revelations , internal Spirit [ and consequently not that Spirit of God ] Visions , inward Light , or Word are to be expected or admitted , as any Rule to walk by , the only guide and directory of all mens beleeving and living , so that who have not that have none at all of any sufficiency to lead them to life , though they should follow what light they have from God vouchsafed them to the utmost . So that there is no principle ( to speak in his own words , T. 1. c. 1. s. 16. ) or means of discovery of the saving Doctrine , or sacred Truth , no other rule or measure of judging or determining any thing about or concerning it , but only that writing from whence it is taken , the Revelation of it being expressed only in that writing , up●n supposs●ion of any corruption in which , the saving Doctrine , Truth , or Word of God , as at first given out from God , which say I , whatever becomes of the Scripture is ever entire , and for ever incorruptible , and unquestionably uncorrupt , 1 Pet. 1. cannot be evinced unquestionably to continue entire and incorrupt , hee must then bee fed , as himself and his fellow unlearned learned ones do feed their poor , blinde , p●r●-blinde , unlearned people , viz. with a bit and a knock , and bee kept close to so much as reason and Scripture can well spare him , be caned into a just compass with his own Canon , and Rapt into the right measure he runs out of with the Rule and measure of his making , and bounded within the due bounds of equity , which , beyond all measure , he breaks beyond for the bare Bibles and Letters sake , by that Letter and Book it self , which is called though by I.O. the Word of God , Tr. 1. ch . 1. s. 12. yet by it se●f never so honourably at all , but only by such like Titles , as a Declaration , Letter , Scripture , Book or Bible . And if he shall go on undervaluing that antient covering of Christ the Light of the world , and the Armour of his light , which is unchangeable , and which the True Church , which hath the Moon , and all such moveable and changeable things , as the best outward Writings are , under her feet , stands ever cloathed with , Rom. 13.12 , 14. Eph. 4.23 , 24. Col. 3.8.12 . Rev. 12.1 . casting it away as some old menstruous cloath , cast clout , or rotten rag , as he doth while in his imparralleld both ignorance and impudence he flerts at it , as if 't were a meer Puppet patcht up of shreds , as a fictitious imaginary Christ fain'd in the fancies of Fanatick fools and mad men , Nescio quod lumen , quos , Enthusiasmos quem Deum , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vere nihil , Ex 3. s. 11. Ex. 4. s. 15.21 . Ex. 1. s. 5 , 6. and rejecting that covering of the Spirit of God , which Wo be to him that is not covered with , or is covered with any other , Isa. 30.1 . to cut out the outward Scripture , and grave out the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into a G●rment , into an Idol covering to himself , stealing Words from thence , and therewith cloathing himself which will once wax old as a garment that is moth eaten , and at last ( being old , yea oldness it self though younger the Spirit , and not the antient newness of the Spirit , wherein the true worship and service stands ) is to vanish as an Idel , that must go to the Moles & Bats , & as the brazen Serpent be taken down , and among other Idols of mens earthly Elements , wordly Rudiments , and carnal Ordinances that were good in their own times and places yet but imposed till the time of Reformation , be sent away with , Get ye hence , Isa. 2.20.30 , 22. Rom. 7.6 . Heb. 8.13.9 , 10. It s high time to strip I.O. naked , and discover his shame , which is seen by such as live in the light through his covering , which is a prate of words about the Scripture , and other things which yet he knows not , and to summon him to sit in silence before the Lord undressing himself out of his stollen Ornaments , which till he doth he shall not know what a work of spoyling the Lord hath to do unto him till it come irresistably upon him . And if hee shall flye out so far in his whifling words as to call the Letter [ which to the Light bears the same , and no better proportion then that of the Lanthorn to the Candlelight ] the Light , as the name that is proper to it ; and flye up higher yet till according to his flashy fancy thereof he affirms it in Print ( as hee doth ) before the world that not only the Word of God written of in the Writing , which none denies so to be , but the Writing it self also ( which he means well-nigh in every place by that terme the Word , or else hee strikes beside the Iron , and lies hammering on the Anvil , beating the Air , and meaning another matter then that hee meant when he began , and makes men beleeve that he means all along , which is no more to his purpose then if he meant nothing by it at all ) is an illuminating , shining , spiritual light ; and higher yet , preferred above the light of the Sun , T. 1. c. 4. s. 8 , 9. the most glorious light in the world ; and higher yet , the Sun one dayes light of which is unspeakably more then that of seven others as to the manifestation of the glory of God , T. 1 c. 2. s. 15. a Sun that more eminently then any inferiour fire discovers and evidences it self by such properties as it hath , viz. Light , and Heat , and Power , T. 1 c. 3. s. 10. and c. 4. s. 16.20 . and much more of such like high strains I.O. strikes up in , till he stretcheth the bare Letter so far upon the ●enters as to strain it into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and make it even every thing that the true Word , and Light within is , when as howbeit it hath its excellency above other Writings as an instrument , yet , as to these peculiarities and precious prerogatives of the living Word , is vere nihil ; then I must summon I.O. as warm as hee seems to himself to sit , and as much as he seems to see by the painted flame of his fained fire , and the sparks of his own kindling , that if he know no other way to salvation then the Scripture , and own not the light as the way , which the Scripture speaks of ; this he shall have at the Lords hand , Hee shall lye down in sorrow . Finally , [ to persue yet a little further , and prosecute our present matter under the Metaphor of the Parliament and the House ] If a man should arise and stand up , and contend that the House the Parliament meets in is the Parliament properly , and none shall perswade him to beleeve otherwise , but he will try it out with them that allow him to call the House by a figure , or metonymy of the thing containing for the thing contained , so as to say this House is the Parliament ; and will say the Parliament is the proper name of the House , and it may properly challenge that to it self , and they rob it of its true and due name , and are enemies to both the Parliament , and the House , and Traytors , that will not so own it to be ; and shall say , Die mihi , &c. tell me what it is to be called , if not so [ not heeding that himself calls it the House where the Parliament sits ] and that that is the most proper name of it : I should judge that man utterly unfit to be chosen a Parliament-man , or , if he should be chosen , as unmeet to meet there among the rest , as in regard of his Clergy-ship , I.O. himself once chosen to that honour ( as I hear ) was thought unmeet to meet among them . Or ( to prosecute the matter rather under that Metaphor of the Lanthorn and the Light that shines in it , with which the Letter and the Light , the Writing and the Word doth so exactly correspond and hold proportion ) if there should appear such a man as would not be contented by the fore-mentioned Metonymy only to call the Lanthorn the Light it self , which makes out it self thereby , and other things also to the view of others , but stand up to contend tooth and nayl , that the Lanthorn is the very Light in very deed , and ought so to be denominated , as that which really is so , yea and every inch of it from the Top to the very bottome , or else it is spoyled of its own glorious due and proper name , and denied to be what it is , and abused and depressed quite below it self , debased and disgraced at their peril of mens utter r●ine for their damnable , unbeleef , though they beleeve , own and acknowledge it to be a very special good , serviceable , profitable , clear , useful and perfect Lanthorn above all other Lanthorns , as to all ends and purposes for which it was at first made and framed , unless they see it with such eyes as his own , and beleeve it with himself to be veraciter , the real light and only rule and guide of the way , that mafests both it self and all things else that are needful to be seen to all such as are ne●r to , and within the sight of it ; and as concerning the Light it self , which reveals both it self and the Lanthorn , and the dark room also round about , wherein it shines and shews it self , and other things , as well , yea more brightly when it s beheld immediately , and is abstracted from the Lanthorn , which it reveals , and in which ( to say the truth ) it self is more properly vailed then revealed ( * for the Light or new Testament is vail'd in the Old , the Old Letter revealed in the new ) will not beleeve there is any such thing , nor without impatience hear the Testimony of those that testifie of it unto him , and tell him that he is mistaken , 't is not the Lanthorn that enlightens the room ( as he supposes ) for that is , though transparent , yet a dark body of it self , that can no more by and of it self without somewhat else , i.e. the light to manifest ) evidence either it self , or other things , then a stool or chair , or any such opacous body like it self , but it is another thing within it that shews it self in some measure through it , and ( as the whole room and all things therein are by it ) most evidently seen when it stands and shines in the room , and is severed from it , and that its that Light only , and not the Lanthorn , that can properly challenge to it self that name of Light , and that the Lanthorn under no consideration whatsoever , whether formally considered in its own proper nature as an instrument made into that form of of a Lanthorn , of such materials as Wood , Horn , Tin , Glass , or the like , nor yet quatenus containing the Light in it , * either i● , or can properly be said to be the Light at all , but the man will rather vilifie and utterly nullifie the Light for the Lanthorns sake , so that men become his enemies for telling him the truth about it , and his hand is up , and at work against every man , whose hand is against his crude conceptions , stigmatizing them in Print , as poor , erroneous , foolish , Fanatical , Knaves , Ex. 25.22 . deluded Dreamers , &c. and belying the Light , as a meer ●ained , imagined peece of business , a figment of Fanaticks , fanaticisme , Enthuss ●isme , dotage , Ex. 2. s. 32. Nelcio quid , vere nihil : And moreover if the said man will not only positively assert , but also not blush to profess in effect , that if the Lanthorn be not to be called the Light he knows not what to call it , and thereupon call out to such as deny it to tell and teach him what the Lanthorn is to be called , if it be not properly to be called the Light , saying you must either call it the Light , aut doceat nos aliquis quid dicendum id sit ; and lastly shall not blush to put himself upon the proof thereof against , all that shall gainsay the Lanthorn to be the Light , and that in no better then such a piteous , either flatly false , or foul and fallacious manner as here under followeth , viz. 1. The Lanthorn doth sufficiently evidence it self to be the Light ; therefore most assuredly , unquestionably , incontroleably , infallibly , the Lanthorn is the light , by which men must see , or not at all ; in which Enthememe the Antecedent is as most assuredly , unquestionably , uncontroleably , infallibly false , as I.Os. saying that the Letter doth so evidence it self to be the Light , and consequently the Conclusion , yet this is I.Os. way , p. 68 , 69. For thou triest it out in these Termes , which are the truest , though the more thou keepest to them , the more false thy Propositions , as to the matter asserted in them , both are and do appear , viz. the Letter , the Scriptures , the VVriting , with every Tittle and Iota that is therein , arguing ( as aforesaid ) thus The Scriptures do abudantly , infallibly , incontroleably , manifest themselves to be the VVord of God : Therefore we know the Scriptures assuredly to bee the Word of God , Tr. 1. c. 2. s. 5. &c. 4 s. 1 21. Which Argument is fair , and not fallacious , yet its frame , not more fair , then its Antecedent flatly false understood as it must be by thee ( if there be at all such thing as uniformity in thy two Enlish Treatises , and not so much noniformity as that we may not safely judge of thy meaning in that word Scriptures in one place , by thy own expression and explanation of it in another ) of the writing , or the written Letter , and the transcribed Tittles and Iotaes of it , the falsity of which Antecedent , as uttered in such open termes , being not unlikely seen by thy self to be too obvious to be seen by others , thou fetchest it about in a way of fallacy , acting , arguing minus caste , but magis cause from this foundation . 2. Or else thus , viz. The Light in the Lanthorn , Tr. 1. c. 4. s. 14. doth evidence it self infallib●y to him that is not blinde to be the Light. Therefore the Lanthorn is , and is assuredly known to be the Light ; in which the Antecedent is most true , but the consequence denied , as no less false and fouly fallacious , then the other is true , and as non-sensical a non sequitur as t is to say , the Light declared of in the Letter , is known to bee the Word or Light , which is fallacia consequentis , yet this is I.Os. way of arguing , Viz. By this Light in the Scripture for which we contend , doth the Scripture make such a proposition of it self as the Word of God , that whoever rejects it , doth it at the peril of his eternal ruine . Therefore wee know , and others may bee assured that the Scripture is the VVord of God. In which Argument , Mulier formosa superne Definit in piscem . The Antecedent is most fair and true , let him be Anathema that denies the Light in the Scripture to be the Word of God , but the consiquence is fouly false ( fallacia consequentis ) and consequently the conclusion , for it follows not , because the light in the Scripture or VVord of God declared in it is so , that therefore the Scripture it self is the Word of God. Or else 3. thus , viz. That which doth evidence it self to be the light is the light , but the Lanthorn , the light doth evidence it self to be the Light. Therefore wee may assuredly know that the Lanthorn , the Light is the Light. Which Argument were it urged interrogatively thus , viz. Doth not the Lanthorn the Light evidence it self to be the light ? Therefore is not the Lanthorn the Light ? were fallacia plurium interrogationum , the fallacy whereby one thing is askt of two things at once , which is true of one of them but false if affirmed of both ; but formed positively 't is fallacia , either divisionis , whereby the Sophister concludeth that to be true of two things joyned together as one , which is true of but one of them , i.e. of the Light , considered figillatim , or a part ; or else petitionis principii , or a disputation exfalso supposit is from a false supposition of that which is not , or of that to be granted which is not granted , but remains as the main matter yet to be proved , viz. that the Lanthorn and the Light are all one : which yet is the way of I Os. proving the Scriptures to be the Word and Light , Tr. 1. c. 4. s. 2. the Scripture or written Word of God , and s. 6. The Scripture , the Word of God is light , therefore we may assuredly know that the Scripture is the W●rd of God. Or else 4. Thus ( making no express mention of the Lanthorn at all , which is the main subject that is to be proved to be the Light ) viz. if the Light doth uncontrolably evidence it self to be the Light , then we do infallibly know that the Light is the Light , and properly so called . But the Light doth uncontroleably evidence it self to be the Light. Therefore we infallibly know that the Light is the Light , and properly so called , which is I.Os. manner of speech sometimes , Tr. 1. c. 4. s. 1. the Word of God is furnisht with innate Arguments for the manifestation of it self , i , e. to be the Word of God. So s. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Where ever the Word comes , there is a sufficiency of light in it to evidence to all the Authority of God , i. ● . That its the Word , and evidence of truth , commending it self to the conscience of men : No want of light in the truth it self . The Word makes a sufficient proposition of it self where it is ; leave the Word to men and if it evidence not it self to them , it is because they are blinded . So Tr 1. c. 2. s. 6. Thy Word is truth , S. 14. Over all his Name God magnifies his Word ( in all which places in an honest way of proof of the Scripture to be the Word of God , that term of Scripture should have stood in the stead of that terme the Word of God , but then the falseness had been obvious therefore we infallibly know the Word of God is the Word of God , and properly so called . In which Argument a man may take his choice of fallacies , and of two call it which he pleases , or both if he will , and do him no wrong whose it is , for as there is a begging of the grand question in the dispute , and a taking it aforehand for granted , which is not granted but denied , and to be proved , viz. That the Lanthorn is the light , the Writing the Word , which is called Petitio principii , so there is a concluding aliud a negato , another thing , which is owned , and not contradicted , nor gainsayed , viz. that the Light is the Light ; when the thing denyed , and to be proved , i.e. that the Lanthorn is the Light , the Writing the Word , is not affirmed in the conclusion at all , which is called ignoratio Elenchi , when that is inferred as contradictory to the thing denied , which doth in no wise contradict it . Or else 5. thus , viz. the Lanthornquatenus it contains the Light may be the light . Therefore the Lanthorn may be said to be the Light. Which Argument is fallacious , being a dicto secundum quid , ad dictum simplicitor ; for it follows not in any wise ( if we should yeeld as we need not ) that as it contains the light , the Lanthorn may be said to be the Light , that therefore it may properly be said so to bee , much less that the Light is the proper name of the Lanthorn ; which is that which is undertaken to be proved by I.O. for hee from secundum quid , argues , and sayes , the Letter , non respectu literae scriptae , as it is Scripture , but quatenns , &c. as it contains the divine truth , is , the Word of God , therefore the Letter is the Word of God simpliciter , and the VVord of God is its proper name and nature . I say if the said man shall not only flye up thus into the height of falshood in his assertion of the Lanthorn to be the Light , the Letter to bee the VVord , decrying that altogether which is so indeed , but also drive on his proof and evidence thereof in such a sorry way of either down-right falsity , or evident fallacy and deceit as this is , though I should not dare to deal any otherwise then fairly and openly with this man , if I should come to argue all the utter untruths utttered by him about the Lanthorn back again upon ( as by and by I am to syllogize back upon I.O. his false tales about the Scripture ) and though I desire not that any man should bee caught with any other then that godly guile whereby Paul caught many out of the deceit , yet whether he that deals thus treacherously doth not deserve when he hath done , ex lege Talionis , to be dealt treacherously withall , Isa. 33.1 . Let wise men judge , and according to their judgement let such fools act and execute , which I now am none of , among whom , Fallentem fallere non est fraus , to deceive the deceiver is no deceit . However thus much I shall make bold to say of the man aforesaid , that t is fit he should bee told barely of his bruitishnes , and fully forewarned of both his falsness and his folly , that he fall not into the like for the future , and if he be indeed so blinde as he makes himself , and so mean of memory as not to remember any name , whereby the Lanthorn or Letter can bee called , but that name of the light and VVord though himself calls it not the light or word only , but by the name of lanthorn , letter , or Scripture also save that Trapezantius-like , who in a long fit of sickness forgot his own name , I.O. forgets himself , and heeds not that himself often calls the letter , as others do , by its only due and proper name of letter or Scripture ) 't is fit he should be plainly told what to call it , and minded of it , as I here do tell and minde I.O. who calls to the Qua. to tel him what to call the letter , that the name of Lanthorn , by which ( though he forget that hee doth so ) himself doth call the lanthorn , and the name of Scripture , by which he [ though he● forgets it ] calls the Scripture , is a more proper name then those of light , and the Word of God , and the most proper names that can possibly bee given to them . And if for all this he will obstinately oppose the truth , and wilfully wa'k on without wisdome , then nescio quid indeed , the dotage being so deeply dyed into him , that its scare like to depart , if he be brayed in a Morter , I know not what more to say , but Nescioan Anticcyram ratio illidestinet omnem . Now I.O. ne Kideas be not so merry about the mouth , for such a man there is , and nigher to thee too then thou thinkest he is , so nigh that thou canst not step an inch from him -- nete quaesiveris extra , hee is a well known to thee as any man in thy cloaths , and thou canst not bee ignorant of him , if thou be not willingly ignorant of thyself , yea verily , Thou art the man that art found in that folly and falsehood that is aforesaid about the lanthorn and the light , as is shewed so abundantly above , that there needs little more to be said in proof thereof . Tu Dominus , Tu vir , aut Doceas nos , quid sibi vuls santa blateratio & mugitus , &c. what means such a bl●ating and bellowing out for the letter ? such a pleading it to be the true light , which it doth but plead for ? such a striving to have it stiled the light ? and the meer writing and every tittle of it to be called the Word of God ? which bears in truth , caeteris paribus , but such a reference to the true light and Word of God respectively , as the lanthorn doth to the light of the candle which is set up and held forth in it : Quid sibi vuls detesta●io , execratio tanta , &c. what means such direful detestation , extr●am execration , and thundring out of little less then Anathama Maranathaes against the light within , and word within , and all that confess to it , as I.O. himself doth too , but that hee forgets it , and so curses himself by craft , Ex. 1. s. 4. as Fantastical , foolish , deluded , Enthusiastical enemies to , denyers and reproachers of the Scripture , because they deny the letter to bee that light and Word of God , which as through a lanthorn , glass or vail , and not so brightly , but more dimly , then when viewed with open face as shining in the heart , are seen and shew themselves through it ? siccine se gerunt ministri lucis sicut vosmet vos geritis O ministri literae ? tantaene a nimis caelestibus irae ? Quid sibi vuls tanta terminorum transpositio ? verborum ista tua mutatio , mussitatio , mangonizatio , &c. supradicta ? If there bee not such a man , and I.O. be not he , teach us I.O. plainly what thou meanest by that peeping and muttering out of thy minde ? by that mumbling and fumbling in such foul fallacious wayes about things , wherein if thou wert not minded to mask over thy meaning that men may not minde too much where thy lame cause halteth , nor finde where its false and falters thou mightest have made it ( fairer in it self , I cannot say , for the fairer and fuller thy openings of it are , the falser and fouler it appears , but ) tenfold fairer to bee seen in its falsness and foulness then now it is : tell us what means that mess of medley , that Mangonization and mixture thou makest of both thy matter , and thy meaning ? that Tohu Vabohu ? that tangled and tangling kinde of talk that thy Treatises do consist of , wherein not only like him that talks up the lanthorn into the name of the light , and talks down the light as nothing , thou triest to turn the outside inwards , and that which should be uppermost downwards , i.e. the light within , which is the Truth it self out of doors , and the outward letter , which is but a Writing of it , in its room , place , power , use , and name , but also in the proof and prosecution of that most subsenseless subversion dost in one place or other ( one place well compared with another ) subvert thy self by thy own sayings and unsayings ( how much more I cannot say but ) little less I dare say then twenty times over , tumbling about like a Bull in a net , turning things to and fro , transposing thy termes , and introducing the prime praedicate in place of its own prime subject , one while using the terme Scripture , Letter , Writing , which ( witness thy ●itle pages ) is the sole subject expected by thy Reader according to thy intimation of no less , to be proved to be the Word of God , and treated on without varying from it under that terme of Scripture , Letter , Writing ; other while in thy very Argumentation for the Truth of thy untrue affirmation , which is that the Scripture in esse both reali & cognoscibili is the Word , and in answer to that queston how is it known that the Scripture is the Word of God ? promiscuously putting all these termes , viz Book , Faith , Bible , Truth , Writing , Doctrine , Letter , Light , Scripture , Word of God , Declaration , minde , will of God , and things declared together again , as if 't were already out of question , which is the matter in question , that these are all one thing and termes Synonymous , and compounding , and confounding them into one Chaos or lump of confusion , chopping and changing , popping out , and pulling in , mounting up , and then dropping down , as if thou wert sensible of being got too high , then hiding they head again , and there [ as those that are afraid out of their close places ] moving out of thy ho'e , as a worm of the earth , and twining every way , fair or soul to secure the main chance , and to make good thy bad cause , and carry what thou contendest for , which yet when all 's done , beside the getting to thy self among seeing men the blot of blindness , ignorance , weakness , folly falshood , fallacy , and confusion , thou wilt , which way soever thou orderest or disorderest thy Arguments for it , even by thy own Management of it bee on the losing hand , till at last thou hast lost it altogether : for though thou makest as much of it to the utmost as another can well do , that hath taken on him to make an ill business good , yet the utmost thou makest of it , if well examined , is as little as 't is nought toward the bettering of it , and very much of it at least , but very little better then what is urged above about the Lanthorn : And when thou hast turned every stone , and hast wrought a long time till thou hast tyred thy self with talking to have the Letter , and every jot and Tittle of it to be the Word of God , till thou canst scarcely go one jot further , or adde one Tittle more to the countenancing of thy cause , thou even givest out and lyest down , and as ( T.D. had the wit to do at first , and C.F. was forced to do at last ) in a manner givest it in , and layest it down so very fairly to thy opposers , that all thy after strugling for it again is to no purpose to prove thee any further a friend for all thy ample appearances pro Scripturis , then the Qu. are , with whom thou art fain to fall in one , and say as they say in thy Ex. 1. s. 28. s. 40. and , as thy fellow fighters with us about it do all confess , that the Scripture no otherwise●is , nor is to be called the Word of God , then Respectu subjectae materiae , or divinae veritatis in earevelatae seu contentae , non respectu literae scriptae , non formaliter quatenns scripta , in respect of the matter or Divine truth therein declared and contained only , not in respect of the Writing or written Letter , not formally , as 't is Scripture ; and that in innumerit paene locis ubi verbum Dei dicitur , &c. in those [ well-nigh innumerable ] places of it , where the Word of God is said to be preacht , publisht , multiplied , and received the holy truth , or matter of the Scriptures is intended , but not the Scripture it self formally considered ; and when the Word is said to be nigh us in our hearts , and in our mouths , Rom. 10.8 . and the Word of Christ to dwell in us , t is confest by thee that that Word of faith is not litera Scripta , is not the Writing , but the Truth written , which is another thing then the Scriptures ; neither do the Qua. say ( as thou there belyest them in thy lame laying down of their Argument ( which is of force to stop thy mouth however as thou rendrest it weakly , much more if urged in its full strength ) that the VVord within , is not Verbum Scriptum , for it is the same word that is written , but it is not the writing , not the Scriptura , not the litera scripta , between which , and the Verbum Scriptum thou art or wilt seem so silly , as to make no distinction : So then if the Scripture , formaliter , formally considered is not ( as secundum te it is not ) the VVord of God then however thou scruest it into that name and thing , by secundum quid , yet simpliciter , really , truly it s not so at all , nor so properly to be called , for forma dat esse rei , and is that per quod res est id quod est ; and if it have not the form of the VVord of God , then the Scripture hath not the being or true nature of the Word of God ; much less is the Word of God ( as thou improperly sayest it is ) its proper name . CHAP. V. NOw as to I.Os. third Argument whereby to evince the Scripture to be the only most perfect Rule , Standard , absolutely sole sufficient way of Revelation of Gods will , &c. and so consequently the Word of God , it s on this wise , Ex. 3. s. 30. * viz. J.O. The Spirit of God most heavily damns and rejects all additaments to the Word of the Scriptures , i.e. the Scriptures with him , of what sort soever , and specially all those wayes and means of knowing God and communion with him , boasted of by the Fanaticks , chiefly conference with Angels , Col. 2.18 . Heb. 1.2 , 4. 1 Cor. 4.6 . Luke 10 , 29. Revelations not only alienas , containing different doctrines , Gal. 1.8 . but alias also , 2 Pet. 1.19 . other new Revelations of the same Doctrine then those individual Revelations of it that were made to them that wrote the Scripture , Rev. 22.18 . Heb. 1.2 . 1 Cor. 4.6 . Col. 2.18 . And Col. 2.18 . And lastly , that inward Spirit the Fanaticks talk of , or internal light common to all , 1 Joh. 4.1 . Isa. 8.20.2 Pet. 2.18 . Rep. Surely I.O. thou wast in some deep Divine dream when thou wrotest these thy Divinity Disputations , or else thou wouldest never have divined out such a deal of darkness and falsehood at thou hast done , or have lent such , as thou wouldst have to own what thou writest for light and truth , a little more of that thou eallest light , even a little more of that Letter a of Scripture thou pleadest for , to discry it by , or something , or whether thou deemest I will not say that men seeing a number of Scriptures quoted by the Dozen ( for so 't is here as 't is in sundry places above spoken to , excepting that counting such as are twice over recited , here is thirteen to the Dozen ) of which it might be said , nos numeri sumus , would make account of them by whole-sale to be all on thy side , and take account of them , not by weight , but number , without so much as looking otherwise on them then to see how many they are , but not heed either what they say , or whereof they affirm ; but some odde blinde business or other is i th' wind , as the reason of it I know full well ; for there 's not any of all the Texts of thy own tumbling a top of one another that I meet with yet , either in this Dozen , or those before , that hath the least tendency toward such a thing as thou intendest them to in thy meer Nomenclateral citation of them . Thou intendest by all these to prove there is now no other way of knowing God , of communion with him , but the Scripture , that there is now not only no other kinde of Revelation of the Gospel , save such as was made of it to the Writers of the Scripture , but also none of that same kinde of Revelation of it , as was made to them to be expected , or on pain of damnation and cursing , pretended to by any person by any means , whether Angels internal spirit , that inward light the Qua. talk of , or other medium whatsoever ; but only that very individual Revelation of it , that is made in so much of the Letter as is now extant and bound in your Bibles , is , and must be the only Standard , Rule , and measure , to which no Scripture must be added , tho bounds of which no man for ever , nor Angel is for ever to inlarge , so as to write any more , though of the self-same Doctrine or Gospel [ mark ] on so high a pretence as from the self-same true , inward illumination , vision , in the same true light , or immediate motion , or inspiration of the same holy Spirit , on pain or peril of utter rejection and execration . Do the Texts set by thee in that Section , even all of them together , prove that general ignorant , audacious Assertion of thine ? Doth any one of them respectively prove the particulars thereof , that it is particularly alleadged to ? Doth Gal. 1.8 . because it is said , If we , or any man , or Angel from heaven bring any other Gospel then what we have preached to you , twice over , let him be accursed , prove him cursed that writes more Scriptures of the same Gospel by the same Spirit ? if so , was not Iohn hereupon accursed , that wrote more Scriptures of it after Paul was dead by a new Revelation , not the same ? and was not Paul , if he wrote any Epistle , after to Galatia cursed out of his own mouth by saying , though wee bring any other Gospel , let us be accursed , if that were his meaning , ' that no more Scripture must be written ? is every new Revelation , and new writing , by way of Revelation of the old Gospel , a new Gospel ? or doth Rev. 22.18 . prove there must be no more Scripture nor Revelation within , nor new outward Scripture and Revelation of the Gospel by motion from the Spirit after by Iohn , because he saith , If any shall adde to the words of this Booke , God will adde the plagues of it to him ? Said he therein any more then what was said long before , Deut. 4.2.12 . ulz. Prov. 30.6 . Adde thou not to his words lest he reprove thee , and thou be found a liar : were all those adders to Gods Word , or words , and reprobate , and liars ( as they must be if the Scriptures bee Gods Word , and the adding of more Scripture be additament to his Word ) that added all that Scripture which was written after Deuteronomy and the Proverbs ? and if the Scripture were the Word of God , is not taking away his name out of the Book of Life threatned to him that takes away from the words of that Book , as well as plagues to him that addes ? and so ye , in that ye discanonize most of what was writ there by the Prophets , are discarded from the comforts of the Scripture by the places of you own quotation ? Doth Col. 2.18 . twice over cited , and allowed two votes in this Section , vote either of those particulars it is cited for ? Doth the Spirit there condemn Angelorum alloquia , alias , called by thee Colloquia Angelica , s. 28. all conference with Angels ? or only that worshipping of Angels , forbid more expresly ( as I hinted to thee before ) in Rev. 19.10.22.9 . where I also told thee of the lawfulness of talking with Angels , or receiving of Revelation of the truth from Angels , unless thou wilt Tax such as received the Law , which was given by the disposition of Angels ; and Daniel , and Mary , and Zachary , Cornelius , and Paul and Iohn , that wrote the Revelation , and Christ himself , who all were spoke to , and ministred to by Angels ? were these all guilty of sin and condemnation ? Look again I.O. on the words in English , which thou Greekest out ( perhaps to the further hoodwinking of Idiots that ken not Greek , lest they should finde out thy folly , who settest it for a Cypher , if rendred in plain Latine which to give thee the reading as they stand in your Translations , run thus , Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility , or worshipping of Angels ? Is the talking of Angels to men here deeply damned by the Spirit of God as thou dreamest ? And 2. what 's that Text to prove there must be on pain of cursing no additament of more Scripture or Writing to that Scripture that is in your Bibles ? with pretence of immediate Revelation of the same Doctrine , Truth , or Gospel there taught , from the same inward Light , and holy Spirit , which is the second purpose ; for which it s cited a second time ? And again as to Heb. 1.2.4 . cited Heb. 1.1 , 3. ( for thus thou citest that twice to the 2. same purposes with Col. 2. ) what hath that in it to the evincing the Spirits damning of either all talk with Angels , or addition of more Scripture thereof from the Revelation , motion , or inspiration of the same holy Spirit , to that Scripture of the Truth that is now truss'd up , as the close of the whole Councel of God , that ever must be declared in writing , or counted upon as part of your Canon , according to the Clergies Councel , who first caused that consignation of it by Book-binders within the bounds of your Bibles ? thus run the words , God who at sundry times , and in diverse maners spake in times past the Fathers to the Prophets , hath in these last dayes spoken to us in his Son , who is better then the Angels , &c. Must not his eyes be out that sees any such things hinted at here as those above , the proof of which I.O. intends by this quotation ? Because Angels are here named inferiour unto Christ , therefore Anathematized is he that hears or heeds any thing that shall be spoken to him by an Angel , though he reveal the same Truth , and not another , seeing that truth is already written in the Scripture ; yea cursed be hee from henceforth even for ever ; there 's one of I.Os. Conc●usions , who consequently concludes Iohn accursed that wrote the Revelation from thenceforth , even after this of Paul to the Colossians , and the Hebrews , were written , from whence forward I.O. drives his execration downward to this day ; sith the said Iohn had his Revelation immediately from an Angel , by whom Christ , who had it from the Father , sent and signified it to his servant Iohn , Rev. ● . 1 . And because Christ is better then the Angels , and God in these last dayes speaks in and by him , his only begotten Son , the light of the world , the great Shepherd and Over-seer of the soul , whose own voice his Sheep hear , warning all to hear him , to hear his voice in all things what ever he sayes on pain of being cut off from among his people , therefore the Scripture must have no more writing , though of the same truth that is there , added to it on pain of damnation for ever : there 's the t'other of I.Os. Conclusions from Heb. 1. from which Conclusion I can much more clearly conclude that a cloud of darkness is drawn over I.Os. understanding , and that a beam is in his eye , then draw such an untruth , as that no more Scripture since Iohns time was to be written by the holy Spirits moving , and added to that , from that Text , which tells the truth if I.O. would once heed it , viz. that the hour now is wherein God speaks to the Sons of men , in , and by his own Son , whom he hath given to be a Light and Leader , to all people wherein the dead must hear his voice , before ever they live to God , who since God speaks by him , and hee by his own light , Spirit & Voice in I.Os. conscience , why doth not I.O. heed him then , but scoffe at him in his inward Light and Spirit the Qua. call to , as at Christum quendam Imaginarium , infallibilem Doctorem , nescio quod lumen , scu verbum internum nescio quem Deum seu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Deoforsan quopiam melius , &c. for woe unto him that ever he was born if he repent not of it , but run from him to the Letter , which doth but testifie of him , and call to him , in the reading and searching of which if he think he hears Christs voice , and Gods voice truly , then the Scribes , that read the Scripture as much as hee , could not be truly reprov'd Ioh. 5. as not hearing it as they are by Christ : And 2. I shall think hee is not only without his sense of spiritual hearing , but , as 't is shewed above of others in the like case , not so well as he ought to be in his natural wits and understanding . And as to that 2 Pet. 1.19 . which I insisted so lately , and so largely upon above , if there were the weight of one half grain in it towards the turning of the scales to his purpose , I would weigh it once again , but he that shall say these words , We have a more sure word of Prophesie , to which yee do well if yee take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place , till the day dawn , and day star arise in your hearts hath ought in it [ if the Letter of Scripture were there meant , as I have shewed it is not ] to prove there must bee no more Scripture written ( as from the Spirit ) after that verse was written on pain of damnation , [ as I.O. doth , for that 's his drift in quoting it ] doth no more condemne the Qua. by that Text of Peter , then he damn Iohn himself , whose Revelation was written [ as by the Spirit ] no little while after that . As to that 1 Cor. 4.5 . spoken to once before where I met with it , Ex. 3. s. 28. yet twice here cited by I.O. to the self-same purpose as before , from which because Paul there sayes hee would have none think of him , and Apollos above what he wrote of himself ; and him , as no more ( however Idolized by the Church ) then meer Ministers by whom they beleeved . I.O. concludes there must be no addition of more Scripture to his Canon . Rep. If any man be minded to look so long till hee finde a pin in a pack of wool [ which he may sooner do , if lost there , then finde I.Os. conclusion coming from the Text aforesaid ] let him look till he is weary for mee , who will meddle no more with that . And the same summarily , and in short , say I of 2 Pet. 2.18 . another Text of I.Os. urging , For when they speak great swelling words of vanity , they allure through the lusts of the flesh , through much wantonness , those that were clean escaped from them who live in errour . Rep. He that will spend so much time as to study on that Text till hee can duely draw either of these Doctrines from it , viz that the holy Spirit downrightly damns , 1. All addings whatsoever of more Scripture or writing , as from the Spirit , to that Scripture now in the Bible , which our Clergy calls their Canon . And 2. All the wayes and means of knowing God , and of communion with him , even that internal Spirit , and light in the conscience ( to use I Os. phrase ) boasted of by the Qua. as in some measure communicated to all men , shall most assuredly have his labour for his pains . The same may be said of 1 Ioh. 5.1 . Beloved beleeve not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they he of God or no , for many false Prophets are gone out into the world . Rep. What damnation is thundred out here at all to the Adding of any thing , or Revelation that is true , to the outward Writing or Scripture , where the Scripture is neither talked on , nor intended ? he talks of Spirits there , and not Letters ; much more what follows thence to the condemnation of the inward light and spirit , the Qua. talk of , call to live , and walk , and hold communion with God in now according to the counsel of the Scriptures , as Abel , Noah , and all holy men of God did from the beginning before the Scripture was ? Is this to adde to the Scripture , and to fall under condemnation from that Scripture , and from that Text too , as Adders to the Scripture , to hold forth , preach , publish , in the movings of the Spirit , and therein also to commit to writing the holy Truths revealed in the Light and Spirit of God they obey and walk in ? and to call men by Voice , Scripture or Writing , as they are moved , to live and beleeve in the Light , to walk not after flesh , but the holy Spirit of God in them which reproves them of sin , and lusts against their flesh , as they did of old , who wrote in the same Light and Spirit of God , that outward Scripture ye more scrible for , then walk by , so long as ye walk not by the Light and Spirit as it bids you ? doth not the Scripture call to beleeve and walk in the Light and Spirit , and not in the darkness , and in the flesh ? and where is that Spirit and Light ? is it not within in the heart where the flesh and darkness dwells which lust against it ? And for as much as thou sayest here the Spirit damns all wayes and means of knowing God , and communion with him beside the Scripture . O thou Elymas ! Wilt thou not cease to pervert the right wayes of the Lord ? Doth not the Scripture and Spirit of God by it rather down rightly damn all them out of al' communion with God , let them jactitare , joy and boast never so much of their having the Scriptures , that walk not in the said Light the Qua. testifie to , which thy self only , contrarily both to the Scriptures and sound reason , and Gods Spirit also , damnest down as Diabolical to the Pit of hell who yet sometimes again confessest it to be of God and Gods voice in nature , by which he reveals his minde to men , and that infallibly without the least contribution of strength , or assistance from without , and therefore surely without a Letter ad exera , p 42 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 46. ) yea and rejectest with abhorrency and detestation , Ex. 3. s. 28 ? Doth not the Spirit by the Scripture condemn them for Lyars ( and such are all the formal Professors of the Letter that have got the good words to talk on for hire , and make a trade of , whose portion is the Lake , while they are not under the power of the Light , but hate it , and the holders of it out ) that pretend to communion with God out of the Light ? and own 's it any other way or means of fellowship with God , but the light , saying , 1 Iob. 1 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. God is light , and in him is no darkness at all , if we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darkness we lye , and do not the truth ; but if we walk in the light , as he is in the light we have fellowship together , and the blood of his Son cleanseth us from all sin ? dost not thou then instead of light walk in obscurity , instead of brightness in darkness it self ? dost thou not grope for the wall yet like the blind , as if thou hadst no eyes and stumble at noon-day as in the night ? is not a mist upon thee already from the hand of the Lord , so that thou seest not the Sun , as it was on the false Prophet Act. 13.6.10 , 11 , 12. that sought to turn away the Deputy from the faith , and from beleeving in the Doctrine of the Lord , which yet he could not do by all his mischievous subtilty , and to pervert the right wayes of the Lord ? And now thou hast brought mee upon that Text , 1 Iob. 4.1 . 't is true , hee bids the Saints not beleeve every Spirit , but try the Spirits , for many false Spirits and Prophets were then abroad , and as Christ said , Matth. 24. there should in the last time come false Prophets , false Christs , Antichrists , even so ( witness Iohn here , and also 1 Iob. 2.18 . ) they did come , and were even then already in the world , and have multiplied since then into a number numberless , and spawned themselves over the face of the whole Europian earth , and more , so that all Cities , Countries , Vniversities , ( so called ) Parishes through Christendome are even overflowed therewith ( the more shame for them that cannot see Wood for Trees , and how Christ is now coming to consume the Antichristian locusts of all sorts where they swarm , with the Spirit of his mouth , and brightness of his coming in Myriads of his Saints , Iud. 14. but rather dream they are now newly rising out of the bottomless pit , so I.O. Ex. 3. s. 19. * and so mistake the true Prophets to be them , who rather are armed with the Light , and standing up in the might and power of the Lord against them ) But let me ask thee I.O. what were they to try the Spirits and the Prophets by ? was it the Letter or the Light , the Scripture or the Spirit of God it self ? which of these two is the Rule or touchstone of trial ? which is the Iudge that must give the resolution , in whose sentence there must ultimately be a resting and undoubted discerning what Spirit or Prophet is of God , and speaks truth , and what is false , and comes with cunningly devised fables ? I know thou sayest p. 67 , 68. the Scripture and that alone we are sent to in this case to give the determination ; but ( saving thy single say so ) there is no evidence of any such matter either in this Text , or any other , t is not denied by me , but the Scriptures may bee searcht , and that that which is of God contradicts not them ; So the Bere●●● did , who are commended for receiving the Word first as it was spoken 〈◊〉 readiness of minde , and recorded as searching the Scriptures also , but that on the account of which they beleeved the doctrine before they lookt into the Letter , was the Light in their own hearts , whereby then very conscience could witness it to be the truth , it answering to that of God in them , as face to face in a glass , and not the Letter without , for being lookt on without the Light and Spirit of God it came from that gives to see into the mystery of it ( to say nothing here how the Light and Spirit within , only gives to know the Letter to be more of God then the Iewish Talmud , or the Turkish Alcoran , the Scripture answering to the eternall , unchangeable , infallible light of God in the conscience then those Fables do ) the Letter would have further blinded them from all beleef of the truth , as it did the old Scribes , and doth the new that search it in the darkness of their own understandings , more then the Bereans did , the Letter being but such a History , Record , and Writing of certain outward things transacted in a ceremonial or temporary figure and Type of some spiritual , inward , substantial , invisible , and eternal truth , as lookt upon by them that are not in some measure in that Truth it self it in a figure calls to , and is the Type of , benights the dark minds , and prejudices them more against the truth then if they had no outward Letter at all , as the Pillar of fire to Israel that were on the inside thereof was a cloud and darkness to the Egyptians that were on the backside , which is the reason why all sorts of porers on the outside of the Letter , and backside of the Bible , and Professors , as well in separated Assemblies as Parochial , of the Letter in the carnal Commandements thereof are further hardned in hatred against the Qua. the children of light , who are let and lead by the Spirit and light of him , who only opens the seales to his Disciples , into the inside of it , and into the power of the endless life , yea more then very heathens that never heard of any Letter at all ; for to such as read the Letter any other way but in the Light and Spirit that gave it forth by holy men , as Animal men do , and therefore discern it not , it seems to contradict the things of the Spirit , whereupon the Apostles were counted blasphemers of the Truth because they called men into it out of the Types , and taught men to forsake Moses Testament that stood in outwards , viz. Heb. 9.10 . eatings , drinkings of flesh , bread and wine , and divers Baptisms , carnal Ordinances , outward , or in the flesh , &c. which all had their institution , and were in being before Christ crucified , who d● jure put an end to all these by the Sacrifice of himself , though de facto used after by permission for a time in regard of peoples weakness at first to bear the total leaving them off ; for indeed to the lookers for the Kingdome and coming of Christ in outward observations , hee that seeks to bring them off from these , which decrease , to Christ who increases , that they may witness him formed , and his image brought forth in them , seems to such ( as Paul did to the foolish bewitcht ones of the Galatians that hung in the Letter , and stuck short of the Spirit , thinking to be made perfect by the Letter , and fleshly performances ) to bee a very enemy both to them and truth , and then most when he tells them most of the truth . I say then , 't is the Spirit and Light and not the Letter by which Doctrines , Spirits , Prophets true or false are to be tryed , neither is the Spirit of God which was before it , so to stoop to the Letter as to stand at the Bar before the Letter that is infer●●● 〈◊〉 it , and came from it , but both the Letter and all false Spirits , and their speakings , and it self , and its own also to bee tried , judged , and determined by the Spirit of God , which judges all , and is not to be judged by any , which , as the Light , discovers , discerns , and comprehends the darkness but is not discovered , discerned , nor comprehended by it : nor is this absurd as it may seem to some blinde ones , to say the speakings , writings , doctrines , things of Gods Spirit , as well as all false Spirits and the things thereof are to bee tried by the Spirit of God it self , for as the Sun , outward , is that which shews both it self , and all things , and is not shewed by any thing but it self , and rectum is ever mensura sui & obliqui , that which is infallibly right is the Rule and measure of manifestation of it self , and of all the wrong , and not , retro , any wrong , darke , crooked , doubtful , or fallible thing the Rule of that , so the Spirit and Light of God , by , and from which , and that but remotely too through mens hands , the Letter had at first , and now through fallible mens hands hath all its being , is the Rule of trial for it self , and of the Letter , and of all false Spirits , Prophets , Doctrines , &c. yea it self , and all things are made manifest by the Light , whether approveable or reprovable , works of flesh , or fruits of the Spirit , as the Letter sayes of it , Gal. 5. Eph. 5. yea what ever doth make manifest ( as the Letter never doth , or can without the Light , and the Light doth often , and did thousands of years without the Letter , and before it was ) it is the Light : And if any other should , yet of all men I.O. cannot charge this on me as an Idem per Idem , to say by the Spirit of God and the Light alone , we must Try the true Light and Spirit , and the false Spirits and pretences to the names of Light also , for I say no more in it then the truth of the true light and spirit , which himself sayes most falsely of the Letter when p. 51. he asserts it to be the Rule and Standard , the Touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , that that must speak alone for itself , which must try the speaking of all , but it self , yea it s own also . I.Os. 6. Argument to prove the Scripture , and nothing else , the only most perfect Rule and Standard is this , viz. Ea omnia quae examinari & probari debent , &c. All those things which ought to be examined and tried , yea which we are commanded to try , tanquam ad lydium lapidem , as 't were by some infallible Touchstone by the Scripture , whether they are true and agreeable to divine verity , or not , with free liberty , yea abs●lute necessity of rejecting them if not consentaneous to Scriptures , those neither apart , nor joyntly considered , can be the Rules or Directories of Gods worship , our faith and obedience , nor are upon their own account at all to be credited . But all Revelations , Visions , Spirits , Dreams , Enthusiasms , we are commanded so to try , examine , and prove ; Therefore those are no Rules that are of themselves to be credited . Rep. That Argument , ( the minor of which is most false , and supposes that infallible Spirit of God , to bee now subjected as some underling to a fallible Letter now transcribed by weak men ) is founded on this Text , 1 Iob. 4.1 . and two more only , beside those above spoken to , viz. 1 Cor. 14.21 . and 1 Thess. 5.21 . The first of which I know nor why I.O. cites it , it proving nothing to his purpose , because Paul there quotes a Text out of the Law or Letter , saying , In the Law it s written with men of other tongues , and lips will I speak to this people , i.e. to the Drunkards of Ephraim , yet they will not hear , which first part hath not a tittle for him , but the latter part of it , much more against him then he is ware of , being not wise enough well to weigh it : And the second Text with the two verses before , viz. Quench not the Spirit , despise not Prophesyings , prove all things , rather against him , that the Spirit , which is there mentioned , and not the Letter at all , is that by which all things are to be proved . What is said above to that Text in Iohn shall ( as well it may stand as answer to the said sixth Argument , with this only addition , that if we must go to the Scripture for the trial of all spirits , even Gods as well as others , then le ts go no further at first however , then that in hand , which tells us , that the true Church , who is written to in that verse , wherein ( nor in any about it ) there 's not the least hint about the Letter , had a secret taken whereby to know the Spirit of truth , and the Spirit of errour , vers● 6. which the world , and its Priests and people have not , vers . 2● Every Spirit ( quoth he ) that confesseth Iesus Christ to be come in the flesh is of God and every Spirit that confesseth not this , is not of God ; and this is the Spirit of Antichrist , whereof ye have heard it should come , and even now is i● already in the world . Riddle me I. O. if it be within thy reach , and from thence tell me which are the true , which the false Spirits , which Christs and Gods , which Antichrists , they that confess Christ Jesus to be come in the flesh , as the ●uardo , or they that deny the Saviour , the Anointed to be come in the flesh , as from the Pope to the least outside , or nominal Christian , and meer literal beleiver and professor , among the most reformed Protestants ( save they who beleeve and live in the internal light and Spirit with one accord all do . Looking at , talking of , bel●eving the History of , expecting justification , sanctification , righteousness , salvation , all from Christ only as he was made a man of outwa●d flesh and blood without them . And if I. O. say in vindication of himself in this , that that is the confession of Jesus Christ to be come in flesh , which every spirit that makes is of God , to beleeve the story of the Incarnation , Life , Suffering , Death , Resurrection , &c , ( that is all truly related in the Letter without , as 't was done in a figure of what was to be further , and more spiritually and mystically transacted in his true body the Church whereof he is the head ) with a confident application of him , and of the benefit of all the righteousness he did in that person by every man to himself , as by way of computation and imputation , before he hath it indeed imparted or conveyed into himself ( for this is T.Ds. and the whole brood of the back side beleevers , and the Bastard Christians saith and confession of Christ to be come in the fle●h on the account of which they hope they are of God , and shall be saved , though they are far from witnessing or confessing the same Christ , who is the Wisdome , Righteousness , Light , Power , Salvation , and Image of God to be begotten , conceived , formed , born , brought serth , incarnated , risen from the dead , living , and dwelling within themselves , where he hath lyen slain as an innocent Lamb from the foundation of the world in their hearts , which therefore is to perish with the lust thereof , which inward witness of the Words incarnation and dwelling in themselves they that were of God of old had Iob. 1.14 . ( The Word was made flesh , and dwels in us , and we saw his glory ) and all now have who are of God , and have not the vain hope of the hypocrite only , which is as the giving up the Ghost when God comes to take a●●y his soul , Job but that hope , 1 Iob. 3.3 . which is an Anchor to the soul , s●re , and stedfast , entring into that within the vail Heb 6.18 , 19 , 20. which is Christ himself in us the hope of glory , Col 1.27 . known by them to be in all them who are not Reprobates , 2 Cor. 13 〈◊〉 and still in that transgression and in that condemnation , which hath past already upon them , and is not now to them that are in Christ , walking no more after the flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8.1 . ) I say if I.O. judge with T.D. and others that that faith and confession ad extra only , is the faith and confession of Christs Incarnation , Resurrection , &c. which proves them to be of God who have it , and them to be Antichristian spirits who have it not : Let him tell me whether there be any Antichrists in Christendome yea or nay ; I have hitherto taken it that our Divines say the Antichrists properly are no where else , and that there are many more Antichrists then true Christians ( naturâ , non nomine ) in the world called Christian ; but seriously I know not where to finde them , if I.Os. trial , judgement and discerning of Spirits by the very Scriptures themselves bee not very dark and undiscerning and confused , nor what Spirits or Prophets throughout all Christendome are not of God , since Papists and Protestants of all sorts , Prelatical , Presbyterian , Independent , Baptists , Seekers , Kanters , and all other that I know of , as well as Qua. [ who only of all the rest , witness that true , inward , saving , good confession of the Lord Iesus with the mouth , and beleeving in the heart , that God raised him from the dead [ as feeling him living there within themse●ves ] to which the promise of salvation is made , Rom. 10.9 . and which every Spirit that witnessesh , is of God , 1 Joh. 4.2 . ] do together with the Qua. who own and deny not that ( as there bee some that falsely lay of them ) all confess , and really beleeve the truth of the outward History of Christs coming in the flesh of that person that was born at Bethlem , that lived and dyed and rose again at Jerusalem , according to the true Relation of the outward Scriptures , and do also apply him and all his by that faith they have in the story of that person , and in the person at a distance from them , though never feeling the power of his Light Righteousness , and holy life within themselves : but I wot whether I.O. will own all these Spirits , Prophets and Professors to be cordial beleevers , or all such confessors of that outward Incarnation and Resurrection of Christ from the dead to be all of God or not , and in a present state of salvation thereupon , and not one of the outwardly beleeving , Christ-confessing Spirits , Prophets , Priests and Professors abovesaid ( whereof the most are very prophane , false , deceitful Liars , Swearers , Couzeners , Cheaters , Drunkards , Riotous , Glutt●ns , Belly-gods , Want●ns , Whoremongers , Idolaters Covetous , Proud persecutors of Christ , every way abominable , and unchristian in their lives , few or none of which beleeve so much as that they must necessarily , or can possibly be purged perfectly from their sins till they dy● ) to be at all Antichristian . If he say nay , these all shall not be saved , then the said outward faith in , and confession of Christ , as without them , is not saving : If hee say yea , then first where is his personal election ? 2 What need any personal sanctification of us as to our salvation ? what was personally in that man only that dyed and rose at Ierusalem is enough for us so that none needs reside in us , let us eat and drink when we dye we shal be saved and live for ever . Moreover what hath been said above may stand as a sufficient answer over the head of I Os. fourth Agument , which ( as most of them are one with another , in many matters in proof of which he cites over and over , again the same Texts , so that one cannot well make a full end with one Argument without some transition into another ) is very much coincident with this . The summe of which fourth is this , viz. If it be often commanded by God that we attend diligently to the Scriptures , left we be turned aside from the truth and right knowledge of himself by seducing spirits , vain Revelations , false teachers , &c. then the Scripture is the most perfect Rule , &c. but the first true , therefore the other , Ex. 3 . f.31 . The Texts that prove the minor of this Argument , quoth he , are so clear and plain that ad solem caecutiat necesse est , &c. he must needs be blinde toward the Sun it self , who Assents not to them in some of which also [ quoth he ] the certitude of the sacred Word [ that is the Scripture still with I.O. ] is preferred before the certitude ( as to the Churches use ) even of true Revelations and miraculous . Rep Yet two of them , viz 2 Tim. 3.13 , 14 , 15 , 16. & 2 Pet. 1.19 . many times a peece over repeated and supposed to supply almost every turn of I.O. how they serve not his turn at all is abundantly above discovered , whereupon I here quit them . Another is so much misquoted , viz. 2 Ioh. 11.5 , 6 , 10. that , as plain and clear as the Sun as it is , he must be better skill'd then I that knows where to finde it at all . Two more there are that make as much to I.Os. purpose , as any two well-nigh can do , that speak contrary to it , and those are Ioh. 5.47 . 2 Thess. 2.2 . The words of the first , which with those of 46. vers . are Christs to the Scribes , are these , Had ye beleeved Moses , yee would have beleeved me , for he wrote of me , but if ye beleeve not his writings , how shall ye beleeve my words . Christ by true Revelations of it from the Father to him truly revealed the Fathers will to the Scribes which they received not from him but hated him for , Ioh. 8.40 . 12.49 , 50.14.31 . saying of Christ , Wee are none of his , we are Moses Disciples , we know God spake to Moses , as for this fellow we know not whence he is , Joh. 5 : 45 , 46 , 47. Christ tells them in effect that for all their prate and pretence to Moses as their Tutor , he rather was their Accuser in whom they trusted , sith they in truth beleeved not Moses , for [ a minori ad majus ] did you indeed beleeve Moses , ye would much more beleeve me , quoth he , for he wrote of me , he sent , directed , and pointed you to me , for so he did , Deut. 18.15 . saying of Christ , A Prophet will God raise to you , &c. him shall ye hear in all he sayes , who hears him not shall be cut off from his people , Act. 3.22 , 23.7.47 . But if you beleeve not his writings , wherein ye are bid to hear me , as the greater of the two , as the Son in the house , where he was but the servant , then ye cannot beleeve my words . The summe in short is this , hee that heeds Moses writings , must hear me , for Moses bids them do so , he that beleeves what I say , doth what Moses sayes ; he that beleeves either , beleeves both , he that beleeves not both , beleeves neither . But what of that ? what follows hence ? this , quoth I O. for that is the very end hee infers this Text for , and the very conclusion he infers from it ; viz. that Moses writings of Christ are more sure , and of greater certainty , as to the Churches use , then Christs own words from his own mouth , or then Christs Revelations of Gods minds to men , as revealed to him from the mouth of God , from the very bosome of the Father : Siccine ? Itane ? is it so I O. indeed ? what the ou●●ard , remotely transcribed Copies of the writings of the Old servant , that put a vail over his face too , and spake so darkly in types and figures , and shews , and shadows , that 't was hard to behold stedfastly to what end he spake , more plain , and stedfast , and sure , and certain then the immediate Voice , Words , Revelations of the Son himself , whom Moses called to hear , as coming and speaking more distinctly out of the very bosome of the Father ? O the dotage of our Vniversity Doctors , the dimness of our Divines ! who profess to dive daily and deeply into the Scriptures , that make the dark Writings , and dead Letter and servant more clear and worthy , and useful to the Church , then the express Voice and Words of the Son , which are Spirit , and life it self . I shall set but one Scripture to face this fancy of I.O. and so leave , and let it stand to the shame of it self , and its Father , Heb. 3. vers . 1. to the 8. See and read it . Thus of the first : The words of the second are these , Be not soon shaken in minde , nor troubled neither by spirit , nor by word , nor by letter as from us , as that the day of the Lord is at hand . Rep. The business I.O. cites this in proof of is [ for this , and that next before are of those that are subscribed to that purpose ] that the certainty of the Scripture is preferred before the certainty of true Revelations and Miracles ; but which way so much can be drawn , unless it be as I.O. draws iniquity with cords of vanity , and sin as it were with Cart Ropes , from that Text is more then I can tell . Paul , Silas and Timothy had told them it seems of the coming of the day of God , both by Spirit , Word and Letter , they whose great hope lay in the comming of that day , like such as look and long for what they love , and are apt to thinke and hope it to be , as they would have it , did hope it to be nearer hand then it was , and fearing left , finding it further off then they thought , they might bee troubled , and shaken in minde , and failing in their faith of it , he gives them to understand the worst of it , that the best might the better help it self , that they should not mistake them in their Doctrine about that day , as if they had said it was immediately to shine out upon them , and so waver in their mindes , flag in their faith , and be troubled with doubts , as if it would never come to them , because not so soon as they wisht it might , for there was a long night to interpose it self first , he wills them withall to remember v. 5. that he told them no less in the Spirit by Word of his mouth ( as now he doth over again by Letter or Writing ) when was present with them , howbeit , as that 's never long that comes at last , so that day would come at last to their salvation , and destruction of the man of sin ( who caused the night ) with the brightness of it : Here 's the short and the long of the business of that verse , and those about it , from which I , who can see the Sun , can see no such Doctrine follow , as I.O. dreamingly draws from it , nor one dram of Reason , nor the least grain of Assent to his Asas●inated Assertion , that the Scripture is of more certitude as to the Churches use , then any true Revelations . Other Arguments I.O. urges why the Light and Spirit cannot bee the Rule , &c. Therefore the Scripture must be it . J.O. That to which we are never , no where sent of God that we might learn the knowledge of himself , and his will , and take direction in our duty , that cannot be the Rule , Canon , Principle or directory of our Faith , Learning , Knowledge and obedience . But we are never , no wheresent of God to any inward Light , or internal Private spirit , &c. Therefore , &c. Les the Fanaticks produce but one place of Scripture , wherein we , or any are sent to their Rules or directions of faith and obedience , and we will not say but they have cause to triumph in earnest , but if they speak of their own , they are Lyars , they bear witness to themselves , and their witness is not true . Reply . As for thy word , Private Spirit , we deny all leading by any Private Light and Spirit : It is the Common Light and Publick Spirit of God , which is one and the same in all , though not in the same measure , and not any thing of our own that we testifie to , and profess to follow , as our guide : It is the gift of Gods grace in us , that appears to all , bringing salvation , which teaches all , that are led by it , and learn at it , to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and live godly , righteously , and soberly here , that we intend ; nor do we so much as pretend to any other inwardlight , but that of God in the conscience , which , though thou foolishly stile it Natural , yet thy self be ●rest such an ample testimony to sometimes , that we need use no other then thy own words , to prove it to be infallibly of God , and from him an infallible guide : and that we are sent of God to this inward Light , Word , or Spirit , in answer to thy challenge to produce one Scripture , I say what need wee produce one ? Thy own pen , if thou l't beleeve it , points out almost i●numerable places , yea all in which the Word of God is said to be preacht , publisht , multiplied , received , where the Word nigh in the heart is meant , and the outward Scripture , that is the declaration of it , considered formaliter or ( as written ) not at all intended : yet for fear thou shouldest not beleeve thy own pen when such . Truths drop from it as make against thee ( and indeed it hath let fall so many untruths , pro and cons , and fellaries from it , that it little deserves to be beleeved by thy self , but rather suspected when it writes the truth ) I am free here to produce some out of many more that might bee produced , wherein men are sent in the Scripture , if that be of God , by whom thou s●yest they nunquam , nusquam , never , no where are so sent to the rules and directions we call to , which are not any mans own private spirit , or fained light , or Enthusiasms or dreams , as thou dreamest , and to the abusing of us to the world out of thy own narrow private light-loathing spirit divinest they are , but the Word , Light , and Spirit of God which is within , viz. Jam. 1.21 . Receive with meekness the ingrafted Word able to save souls , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , insitum v●rbum . That the Word is a light thou dost not deny , and that its within , sure thou wilt not , who sayest , Ex. 1 s. 40 thus , That Word within is the Word of faith the Apostles preached , and that we are here called to it thou canst not . So Gal. 5.16 , 17. Walk in the Spirit , &c. of which Spirit he saith it lusteth against the flesh , which lusting must be where the flesh that private , earthly , evil spirit , that man in the fall is possest with lusteth against it to envy and all evil ; but that is within , and the Scripture saith so , not only in Iam. 4.5 . but in some other place whence he a leadgeth it , whose words are , Think yee that the Scripture faith in vain the Spirit that dwelleth ( in ) us lusteth to envy ▪ So 1 Joh. 2.24 , 27. Let that abide in ) you , &c. If that ye have heard from the beginning remain ( in ) you , &c. and what 's that but the anointing the Spirit of God within ? which though ● . O. may call a whimsy and delusion , a lye , and such like , yet is Truth , and is n● Lye , yea t is nothing but that which is in the lye , which calls it a lye , and that which is already deceived , and hath nought but deceit it self to bee deceived of , that cryes out Deceit and Delusion of the Truth . To which I might adde all such places as call to the Light and mention the Light , as that which though evil ones hate , yet such as d● truth come to , and Christ both warned men himself to walk by , and beleeve in , and sent Paul and Iohn , and therest of hi● Ministers to turn men to * and Iohn the Baptist pointed at , and witness'd to , which Light was not the Letter , in which they wrote of this Light ( as thou silli●est supposest ) for they were not A●inisters of that , 2 Cor. 3. But the Light of Christ , and Christ the Light of the world who enlightened every man before the Letter was , and that is within , in the minde and conscience , where the darkness is , for the darkness is within , and not without , and therefore the Light must bee much more within , which shines within the darkness , though not comprehended by it ; for that Light which shines in the dark place till the day dawn , and the day-star arise there , which is the heart , must be also in the heart , and that Light which shineth within the darkness , which is within men , must needs be much more within them ; as the candle that shines within a dark Lanthern that is seated within a Room , must need be within the Room , as much , if not more inwardly then the Lanth●rn is . Another Argument against the Light and Spirits being the Rule , and so consequently that the Scripture onely is it , is the uncertainty of all sorts of Enthusiasms . J O. That which is every way uncertain , yea most uncertain , deceitful , whether , we consider th● principle of the Revelation , or the things revealed , that we ought not to attend to , as a Rule or guide in the way of life , and the worship of God , but that 's the nature of all Enthusiasmes . * Therefore , &c. Reply . Is thy Text then such a certain Rule with thee , which thy self confessest to bee so uncertain , that Criticks may alter it as they please ; and about which thou confessest ye are in such a heap of uncertainties ? 2. Wee talk not of Enthusiasms as the Rule , but of the Light within , and Spirit of God in the conscience and Word in the heart , manifesting good and evill , lusting against the flesh , which the Letter calls a Light to the feet a lamp to the paths , and this as is above shewed from 2 Pet. 1.13 . is a sure word of Prophes●● ; yea this is most certain , unchangeable , eternally the same , incorruptible living and abiding ever , what ever become of the dead Letter , that is so liable to be altered , corrupted , nullified , that there need no other Argument in the world be used to prove it not to be the Word of God , ( unless God have an uncertain and corruptible Word which i● blasphemous and contrary to the Scripture to imagine ) then the utter uncertainty and corruptibility of it , insomuch that we may safely Syllogize thy own Argument against the inward lights being a Rule from its uncertainty back again upon thee against the Letters being a Rule ab e●us omne genus incertitudine from its uncertainty and corruptibility thus , viz Quod omni modo est incertum incertissimum corruptibile , &c. That which is every way uncertain , most uncertain liable to be altered , falsified corrupted to be mis-transcribed , mis-translated , mis-interpreted , wrested this way and that , to moulder away to perish , be torn to peeces burned , and many wayes brought to nothing , is not the Word of God , nor the only Rule , &c. But the Letter or Scripture is so as abovesaid , witness the written Role of Ieremiahs Prophesie which Zedekiah cut with a pen-knife , and consumed in the fire , and thy own confessed mouldring away of the very first manuscripts , therefore , &c. Another Argumen of I.O. against the Light and Spirits being the onely Rule is this . J.O. It s of no small moment that leaning to these principles , following th●se guides , rejecting the Rule of the Word written , the Fanaticks are daily driven to pernicious manners , abominable Idolatries , Murders , Whoredomes , Blasphemies , and in all Nations to unhappy ends . Rep. Whether there be more abominable Idolatries , Murders , Whoredoms , Blasphemies and pernicious manners among Qua. or other men called Christians , and Christian Ministers , that suck at the breasts of the Vniversities or nursing Mothers is sufficiently shew'd above , as for unhappy ends , t is t●ue , by bloody persecution many Fanaticks , as thou callest the Qua. have come to untimely deaths , the more shame for New England , where two of them have been hanged for coming into their coasts , and Old England also , where for all the pretences to Reformation , many have perished in prisons , and by blows and bruises for their testimony to the truth ; the more shame for Oxford it self too , where one of the first that came thither dyed of the bruises and abuses there received from the Scholars ; but if by unhappy ends thou mean such as befall men , as his Judgements , from the hand of God immediately in some eminent notable way seizing on them , and cutting them off ; these are untimely ends that many not for following , but forsaking and fighting against the Light the Qua. testifie to , have brought on themselves in these latter years in these Nations , besides many sharp sufferings in their lives time , in which thy self I.O. hast had a just share for flinging at the Qua. as Fanaticks , who art now flouted at as a Fanatick thy self ; Beware therefore , and be warned in thy life-time , le●● thy latter end be as some of theirs : How scores ( at least ) of persons have been taken away for their hands being heavy on the Qua. by the hand of God heavy on themselves , is to be seen in a book of E.B. stiled a Word of Reproof , where hee mentions about fifty sad examples of Gods vengeance on the Qua enemies , where Dean Owen is also marked out for no great good but his excessive pride , to which I refer thee : And to this very day the Righteous God every morning brings his Righteous Iudgements to light , but the unjust knows no shame . Another Argument whereby I.O. would prove the Scripture to be the Word of God is on this wise . I. O. It will easily appear to any one that never so sleightly reads it that the holy Scripture is by the holy Spirit very often indigitated by that name . * So p. 117. in every place it avers it self to be the Word of God. So p 140. If the Scripture be what it reveals and declares it sef to be , it is then unquestionably the Word of the living God , for that is prosesseth of it self from the beginning to the ending . Reply . 1. In proof of thy Minor thou producest Mar. 7.13 . which is nothing at all to such a purpose , for its the Commandements written , which were Gods commands before they were written , and we confes● to be the Word of God , whether they be written , or not , that are there spoken of under that Term Word of God , and not the Writing or Scripture of the Commandements . 2. Exer. 1. s. 28 Thou overturnest thy self clear as to thy minor saying thus , * Where the Word of God is said to be preached , published , multiplied , received in innumerable places almost ) the Scripture formally considered is not meant nor intended : Which is so ( though I know thou contradictest this again blaming the Qua. because they allow not the Scripture to bee meant in those innumerable places of Scripture where the Word of God is said to bee preached , published and received , Ex. 〈…〉 then how canst thou say , the Spirit in the Scripture calls the Scripture from one end of it to the other , calls the Scripture the Word of God , and that the Scripture every where calls it self so ? Another Argument whereby thou wouldest evince the Scripture to bee the Word of life , and so the Rule , is a certain absolute necessity , vel ad esse , to the spiritual being of the Saints that thou fanciest to be in the Scripture , saying , Ex. 3. s. 39. Non p●usopu●est vict●● & vesti●●u● vitam hae●●animatem traducamus , quam Scrip●utis 〈◊〉 eju● cognitio●● ( Dei s●ili●et ) atque side in dies ●●udiamur . We have not more need of food 〈◊〉 to the natural life , then of the Scriptures to the knowledge of God and ●●●th , and that its evident that the Qua. have with Less danger and loss assayed to fast forty dayes , then they can lead a spiritual life free from deadly sins without the Word of God. Rep. Without the Word of God I grant it , but the Word still is in the heart , and is not the Scripture formally , or Lie●●er without , which thou ( with shame enough due if thou takest it to thy self ) sayest men cannot live spiritually without , nor free from sin without : As if there were no holy spiritual men that did no iniquity as the world doth , or that were free from deadly sins before the Letter was : What Letter had Abel , Enoch , Noah , righteous and upright men , that walked with God in crooked generations , to live by ? and if they lived without the Letter to God , is it as impossible to do so now , as to live bodily without food ? that which is necessary ad esse , and not bene esse only , must be necessary for them as well as us , and so the Word of God is , which was before the Letter , and which they then had who had not the Scripture , yea both outwardly & inwardly men live by the Word that proceeds out of Gods mouth , else outward bread doth not keep men alive bodily , Matth. 6. yea every creature that man lives by must be sanctified by that , else it s a curse , 1 Tim. 4. And for the Qua. fasting forty dayes without hazard : There 's a miracle told by I.O. himself concerning the Qua. if that may convince such as look for miracles , yet will not men beleeve . 2. More Texts there are used and quoted often over and over again in proof of many particulars respectively about the Text or Scripture , not one of which either of them truly serves one jot toward the proving of , as namely that it is the Word of God , and that so assuredly that who receive 〈◊〉 not ( as so ) are inexcusable in damnable unbeleef , that that is asserted to bee The Rule and Standard , The Touchstone of all speakings whatsoever , That which pleads its reception not onely in comparison with , but in opposition to all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of Gods minds and will , the best and most effectual means of bringing men to Repentance , That which all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded upon , Th●t by which God gives us greater security against all pre●ences and pleas of unbeleef to the excluding of them , and to the enforcing of beleef , as a sure foundation for faith to repose it self upon , and more moving then any evident miracle , That true voice of God which assertains the soul beyond all possibility of mistake , That which not only it self to be discerned from al delusions , but determines al Doctrines also propos'd to be beleeved whether they be truths of God , or cunningly devised fables , more then the most signal miracles imaginable , more then that greatest of Miracles , even Christs Resurrection , and othe● mans rising with him from the dead , more then any voice from heaven it self , not only then one counterfeited by men or Satan in the air , but then any True voice of God himself speaking to us from heaven , as he spake to Mose● , or as he spake to Christ ; yea as safely to be rested in , as such , a● any voice coming from heaven with such divine power as to evidence it self 〈◊〉 be of God , and to be rested in , as such ; yea giving greater certainty and security then that voice which came to them in the holy Mouns ; That Moses and the Prophets which who hears not wi● not be perswaded to repent though one arise to them from the dead ; That which as to its certitude is preferr'd before the certitude of even true and miraculous Revelations : That beside whi●h ( after the compleating its Canon ) no new Revelations about the same faith and worship are to be expected or admitted , no more 〈◊〉 it ( as from the Spirit ) to bee added , which is to stand alone as the only most perfe●● Rule , inalterable Standard , for the trial of all Doctrines , Visions , Revelation , Spirits , [ Gods own not excepted ] to which we must stand , come , and are sent alone to stick stedfast , and earnestly attend to without hearing or heeding Angel or Spirit , without listning to any new blowings or inspirations of the Spirit , which is now imited to the Letter ( though it was once at liberty , and had the licence as well since the Letter was written , as before , to blow where it listed , Ioh. 3. ) without looking at any light within without walking in any way , or using any other means of knowing God , of having or holding fellowship or communion with him [ which was wont , to be only in the light , 1 Ioh. 1. ] but that of the Scriptures , on pain of rejection and heavy damnation from God own Spirit in the Scripture : In a word , That Law and Testimony which alone is to be consulted with in all doubtful cases , to which God calls from our seeking and attending , Pythonibus aut Aryolis , qui pipiunt & qui mussitant , to Wizards and familiar spirits that peep , and that mutter , yea that very word there spoken of Isa. 8. which whoever speaks not according to these is no light to him . I say the two Texts abovesaid are not only frequently cited and recited in evidence of these various and sundry particulars , but also judged by J.O. to be such sure grounds , Hercules pillars , firm props and principles , as are not only satisfactory to mens consciences , but sufficient to stand that way he draws them against all mens objections , so that relying thereon men have a sure bottome and foundation for their receiving all the other Scriptures , so assuredly as the Word of God , and consequently all that that it abovesaid , that who , even from thence , even from these Text own them not in that manner ( as such ) are left inexcusable in their damm●ble 〈◊〉 , p. 56. That therefore the utter in ●onsequence of J.Os. deductions from them , which are meer non sequi●●●s may the more plainly appear , I shall ( letting fall J.Os. other trifling Arguments , and sidling Replies to what the Qua. urge on behalf of the light ) of inartificial Arguments , as himself calls them , draw them into the form of artificial ones , and express the manner of his illegal inferences from them , which is in such wi●e as here under follows . We are by that Text in Isa. 8.19 , 20. sent to the Law and to the Testimony , to try what ev●y Churches or persons speak about the things of God , his will , worship , or our obedience to him , who if they speak not according to that Word , there is no light in them . Therefore 't is evident that the Scriptures are the Word of God , and consequently all that , that is abovesaid . The second , viz. Christ , Luke 16.31 . bids men attend , not looking for Miracles , to Moses and the Prophets , the written Word , as the best and most effectual means to bring to repentance , and which all faith and repentance is immediately grounded upon . Therefore the Scriptures are evidently the Word of God , &c. Rep. In which two Arguments thou reasonest in Print well nigh as ridiculously , as he works in Paint , who doth Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam . For the head of the corner is strait , sound and sure , the body of the building upon it corrupt and crooked , weak and rotten . That we are sent to the Law and Testimony , to that Word there talkt of and intended , and to Moses and the Prophets , and that that Law , Testimony and Word , that Moses and the Prophets spake of in those two Texts is that Word that is the true touchstone of all truth , a greater ground for faith and repentance to be founded on then that of Miracles , and a more sure , stable , firm , fixt , stedfast , or standing Word , then the voice which came from heaven , all this I do not in the least deny , but that the bare outward Writing which thou falsely callest the Written word , and the external 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as at first written , much more the present transcribed Copies of that Letter , much more yet every Letter , Tittle and Iota of it , which thou keepest such a tatling for to be no less then the Word of the living God is that Law , Testimony , Moses and the Prophets , or written Word ( as thou callest it ) intended in those two Texts or that by these termes in those two places is meant the said outward Scriptures , and lastly , most of all that it follows by any good consequence from those two places by such sound deduction , as will stand against all objections , & gives such assurance thereof , that he is a damnable unbeleever that be●eeves not from thence , that the said Letter and Letters are infallibly known to bee the Word of God and the rest above said , which are the things by thee inferred from them ; all this I both do and dare deny . For the Law that in Isaiah is spoken of , is not the literal Copy , nor outward legible Letter that thou pleadest for , and divinest it is , but another Law , which I see by thee thou art not yet very much ver'st in , nor used to read , even that in the heart , not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Letter of a Law of carnal Commandements , not the formal Letter , or literal form of a writing without , but an inwardly written spiritual Law or Light within , which is the power of the endless life , that Law in mens mindes , which is warred against by that Law of sin and death that dwells in their members ; The Law in the Spirit lusting against that , and lusted against by that flesh , or evil spirit that is also in men lusting unto envy , and all evill , the Law of the Spirit of life which is by Christ Iesus , that is powerful to that , which the Letter , or Copy thereof , which is ( figuratively ) called the Law , is weak to , cannot do , viz. to deliver such as take heed thereunto from that Law of sin aforesaid that leads men captive unto death : The Commandement that is a Lamp , and not a dark Lanthorn , p. 6.23 . the Law that is the Light it self that leads to the life it self ( for so that of the Spirit doth ) and not the dead Letter , that is used instrumentally as a knife to kill , but in any wise cannot quicken . And that Testimony or Witness is that Testimony of Iesus , which they have & hear that keep the Commandements of God , even the Light in the conscience as aforesaid : This Testimony of Iesus , who is the true and faithful Witness of God , of whom also God himself testifieth and beareth witness , is Jesus his own Witness or testimony for God , born by his own voice and writing , by his own Spirit and light immediately in the heart , who there testifyeth what he hath seen and heard of the Father , though few such a thou art receive not his Testimony , whose light , voice , spirit , speakings , and counsel from heaven in their own hearts , who so turns away from , and hears not in all things is none of his sheep , but shall be condemned and cut off from among his people ; and not the testimony or witness of men in outward Writings or Letters testifying ( though as moved by him ) what they have seen and heard from him , not that Scripture thou so w●itest for , and callest the witness of God , for that of God is far greater : the Testimony of Iesus is a Letter indeed , a Writing , and an Epistle & Prophesie , yet not the outward Writings , Letter , and Copies of the Epistles , and Prophesies of Peter , Paul , and the holy men of old , wherein is written and transcribed their Witness or Testimony for Iesus , which they were moved by his holy Spirit to give out , and hold forth whether by word of mouth or writing ; but the Epistle of Christ , written not with inke , but with the Spirit of the living God , not in tables of stone , but in fleshly tables of the heart : yea the testimony of Jesus is no less than the Spirit of Prophesie it self , Rev. 19.10 . and not the writing thou so writest for , in which men do but write it , and write of it , as is shewed above . This verbum & lumen internum , the Word and Light within , is that which those that reject it are , in that place of Iob 24.13 . hinted at by thee , called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lights , Rebels , men resisting the Authority which they cannot but be convinced of , and not the present letter or letters of the Scripture ( as thou dotest p. 74. before the writing of one letter or tittle of which outward letter this inward light was , though he that lives not by the light , lives not by the letter neither , which came from it and ( excepting where men have sould it with the dirt of their mis-transcriptions and mis-translations agrees with it : I wonder how much of that Scripture thou so super-eminently adorest , and wouldest have the preheminence in prating for it , was written when that in Iob was w●i●ing , against which men could be said to Rebel ; tell me if thou canst , and in so doing thou perhaps m●yest tell thy self that that was a light within , and not a letter without , which they then were said to rebel against , which letter without [ as much as thou seemest to wonder at the Qua. for holding the light within in authority equal to it ] they are not ashamed to set the light above , and to say that it is non ejusdem Authoritatis cum Scriptura , sea majoris Authoritatis quam Scriptura , * not in as much but in more Authority then the Scripture , neither will all thy Scripture-admiring scrape adde so many cubits to the statute of it , as among any but such stocks as stick at nothing , but without streining swallow all down for truth that thou tellst them is so , to state it in any equality with the light it came from . And that the Word we are sent to in Isa. 8. is the living Word , and not the dead letter , nor mens dead senses thereon , interpreting it according to their own private familiar spirits , muttering out their own meanings , and imposing on people their own cloudy cogitations thereon , as Cogent Canons , is evident , for he calls them off from the dead , to the living , when they say unto you Seek to them that have familiar spirits and Wizards that peep and mutter , should not A people seek to their God ? for the living to the dead ? to the Law , to the Testimony , if they speak not according to this word , it is because the morning light is not to him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so it s more truly rendred then thus , there 's no lightin them , which mis-translation many [ not knowing the Hebrew , and many knowing it not heeding ] make no little ado against the lights being in all men , and to as little purpose , for it s no light to him , and not no light in him , and we know a light may be in a room under a bushel , and so not shine out unto it . And that by Moses and the Prophets to which Christ directs as the most effectual means of bringing men to repentance , and that all faith and repentance is immediately to be grounded on , is not meant their meer outward writing , it evident ; for all men that need repentance have not that , yea if the Scripture it se●f , and that alone be that men are sent to , by which the Doctrines to beleeved must be tried whether they be truths of God or fables , and upon which all faith and repentance must be grounded ; what must become of those twenties to one in the world , to whom God never vouchsafed so much as a sight of those their Writings ? if thy Divination from hence I.O. be as true as 't is sure enough to some its but a dream , one of these things must be true as concerning such , viz. either I. They need no faith nor repentance ( as they do ) or 2. They must be accepted with God , and saved without either faith or repentance ( as they cannot ) or 3. Both beleeve and repent without any ground at all for the doing of either , and so build a castle in the aire without any foundation or bottome , which how impossible it is , or how well it would stand , if it were possible so to build it , an Idiot may imagine ; or 4 perish and be damned for ever by , and from the living God for not doing that which they had never any ground at all given them from God , whereupon to do it , and so ( absit blasphemia ) be cursed for ever for not acting what they were never put into any capacity to act and ( absit tibi Domine , ne tale quippiam facias , exercendo Pharonis tyrannidem , absit tibi , an non Iudex totiusterrae exerceresjus ? ) be sorely beaten for not making as great a tale of brick without any straw at all , as would have been expected from them if they had had straw enough and be punisht for not effecting impossibilities . But thy faith about that Scripture being but the festisious fruit of thy own fancy , and thy Divination from it but the divinity of a divine that dreameth , we need not in the dark iun upon any of these ragged Rocks having a more sure way , then any of these , in the light made so plain before us , that unless we chuse so to do ( as some do ) we cannot split our selves upon them ; for as all men ( having sinned ) need faith and repentance ; so they have a more effectual means of bringing them to repentance , and a more immediate ground to build their faith and repentance on then the naked outward Writings of Moses and the Prophets , which thou here makest the ground of all faith and repentance ( not mentioning the Apostles , as if thou hadst forgot them , whose writings thou makest a joynt peece of the foundation in other places , p. 33 , 34. ) or then the meer outward writings of the Apostles either together with them , and that ground is no other but the self-same , which the writings of all these bear one joint Testimony unto , viz. the measure of Gods grace in every ones heart that teacheth to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , such as will learn of it , and io live soberly , justly , and godly in this present world , appearing to all men to that end , bringing salvation along with it to such as submit to be taught by it , 2 Tit. 1.17.14 . called the riches of Gods goodness , Rom. 2. which such as thou art despise to their own ruine , not knowing it s given to lead to repentance ; the Law , Light , Doctrine , Truth , Spirit , Word , Writing , and Testimony of God himself in the heart and conscience , given out of his own mouth , written with his own finger therein , not consenting to any , but condemning all evil , and calling to repentance & all other good , reaching men even thi● good lesson , Quod sibine vis fieri alteri ne feceris & è contra , Whatsoever ye would that others should do unto you , the same do you unto them , and this is that Law and the Prophets , that Moses and the Prophets , which Christ ever sends to , Matth. 5.12 . And they that heed , beleeve in , and walk according to this , whereby they are a Law to themselves ( though heathen ) shall come to the life of God it leads to sooner then the Letterlanding Jew or Christian that boasts of the Letter , yet through breaking it in the Morals of it dishonours God. Yea such are the true beleevers unto life as beleeve in that inward-light , and they unbeleevers , who beleeve the history of the Letter & despise this ; and thus it oft falls out , that even Ethnici non credendo credunt , when Christiani credendo non credunt ; and he that will not hear this Moses and the Prophets that i so nigh him , that is within him , will never be profited or perswaded by any mans Writings , nor any preachings that are further off him , and without him , though one do arise to him from the dead . And this , even this very thing , viz. your vilifying , undervaluing , hating , resisting , smoothering , turning from , not coming to that light of Christ in your consciences , but closing your eies against it , stopping your ears at the voice of Christ who from heaven speaks to you by it , hardening your hearts , striving ( like the old stiff-necked , and [ in heart and ears ] uncircumcised Jew against the strivings of the Spirit of God in you by it , which by it convinceth the whole world both of sin , and of righteousness , and of judgement ; your receiving the grace of God in vain , even the light that will not let you run to ruine , without check , reproof , and controle , which is that mercy that shews his long-suffering to men-ward , and that he is not willing any should perish , but that all should come to repentance , and be saved in the acknowledgement of the truth , and your turning it into wantonness ; also your despising the riches of this grace of God ( the Light ) in your taunting terms of ( I know not what imagined Christ or figment of the Qua. I know not what Word or Light within , an infallible Doctor , I know not what God , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cornu-copia , horn of plentiful salvation better then any God , Every thing , Nothing ) and the riches also of his long suffering and forbearnce towards you in your deep defiance and derisory Deifiance of his light and grace , not knowing that this goodness of God , who gives you and others this , is that grand ground that true Moses and the Prophets , and not thy differently transcribed Copies of their outward writings , which are long since worn out , and worm eaten , and could not by thy own confession continue to this day uncorrupted , and from mouldring without a miracle , that should least you to repentance , and is the most effectual means of bringing men thereunto , and the firmest foundation and practice for all faith [ but such as yours which is false and fallible ] to fasten it self upon : I say this very thing , and sin of yours in setting so light by the Light of God , is the great , if not the sole reason why faith and repentance , that are so much preached , are so little practised , so abundantly called for in a form and found of words , yet little or nothing but infidelity , impenitency , and iniquity , diminished into the name of infirmity to be found abounding as well among the most professing , as among the most prophane Preachers and their respective peoples , who all continue in the same sins that both the Scriptures , and themselves too , cry out against ad Ravim usque & sudorem , to very heat and hoarsness ; Sacerdotibus pluteum caedentibus , sedentibus in plureis fudantibus , laboring , and laying on till ye Preachers sweat in your Pulpits , and people in their Pews against pride , and fantasticalness in apparel , against foolish talking and jesting , and idle words in your speeches , against unsavoury laughter and merry tales , and such like frothiness in your communications , against vain thoughts , lust , luxury , rioting , drunkenness , chambering , wantonness , voluptuosness , covetousness , greediness of gain , couzening , chearing , defrauding , overreaething in bargaining , buying and selling , against all unrighteous dealing , headiness , high-mindedness , fierceness , frowa●dness , anger , passion , impatience , discontent , backbiting , whispering , slandering , hatred , malice , contention , suing at law , strife , envying quarrelling , rayling , reviling , self-avenging , against preaching for hire , divining for money , against biting and crying peace , and preparing war against such as put not into your mouths , against spoiling of mens goods , persecuting and imprisoning their persons for their conscience sakes , cum multis aliis , quae nunc , &c. and yet more or less from the least to the greatest Prophets , Priests , Princes , Preachers , Prayers , Professors , People of all forms living stil for all this ( because unturn'd to that light which would shew every one of you his shameful , sinful self ) without much condemnation for , or repentance from these evills some in one of them , some in another ; all in some one or other , and every one in his own that likes him best , and beleeving it will be spared , and be excused th●ugh it live in him , or he in it , even till hee dyes , so that the best of the Parish are yet but as the Beasts that perish , being all lovers of pleasures more then lovers of God , having all this while a form of godliness , but denying the power thereof , for which therefore having [ as eye witnesses ] born , and in this Nation , well nigh finisht their Testimony against you that ye may remember ye were warned in time , and be excuseless and speechless when God himself comes as a swise witness against you for your adulteries against him , and comes nigh unto you , even in your own consciences unto judgement ) Christ own Disciples , Gods own hidden ones , who suffer from you for it , are now utter'y and eternally turning from you . And as there is no thriving in any thing but an empty outside profession of Truth without the possession of it , and no profiting appears in ought , but the prophanenes , aforesaid among the vain Truth-hating Teachers , and vain Talkers of these times , i.e. the Doctors , and their Disciples , whose Religion runs all up into straw , and brings forth no fruit to perfection , because they are all out of that light , which is in them , preaching and hearing one another preach the good words they have stollen out of Moses , the Prophets , and Apostles Writings , but not heeding the Law , and the Prophets , and the light of the Gospel within them , God himself also according to what hee said of old , blasting their Ministry , so that they cannot profit people at all , and cursing all their blessings , though they seldome send their hearers away without their Blessed are all they that hear the Word of God and keep it . So also there is nothing but what is worth nothing comes forth ( as most effectual a means as I.O. faith the Scriptures of Moses and the Prophets are to bring men to Repentance ) by the hearing of Moses , and the Prophets Writings read ( one Chapter yet of which dead Letter of those living men , I grant is worth two of our dead Divines dead divinings ) for-as of old , Act. 13.27 . Act. 15.21 . so now among Iews and Christians , there are those that read these every first day ; but what 's the issue of all the reading of their outward Writings ? As all that comes up on the plowings and fowings of these Seeds-men , when they preach , is like that corn on the house top , whereof the Mower filleth not his arms , nor he that bindeth sheaves his bosome ; so all that comes out upon the Threshings and Treadings of these Oxen , whose mouthes must not be muzled from feeding where they please , if they do but read , much more if they be at so much pains as to expound the Scriptures , is but an itching ear to know , more then do ; yea a bare husk , an empty hull , an ear without grain , a whole Church full of chaff , which every wind of Doctrine drives up & down and whisles to and fro , which when winnowed , and fified in time of temptation falls all back to the ground , to the earth from whence it came , which he whose fan is in his hand , when he hath gathered his Wheat into his Garner , will throughly p●rge his floor of , blow upon by his Spirit , and burn up with unquenchable fire Thus Moses is read , and the Prophets read , and their Writings heard , which [ if I.O. doth not divine a lye ] are the best and most effectual means of bringing men to Repentance ; but where is the Repentance hoped for ? Are not the people ever in their sins ? Is not that a vain power , and meer fained efficacy , Quae nunquam reduditur in actum ? Is not that a most ineffectual most effectual means of Repentance which never effects the end , i.e. the Repentance it is the means of ? Yet where is there one among all these painted Penitents that so truly and fully repents from his sins , as not to ive in , and beleeve he must live in some dead works to his dying day ? or repents so far as to reach so much as hope that he shall live without sin till he dyes ? in which yet [ to go round again ] t is beleeved by the hearer , because taught by his Teacher , that if he dye without Repentance , he shall finde no place after death for repentance , though he seek it carefully with tears , and that there is no Purgatory in the world to come : So here is plowing in hope , and threshing in hope , performing in hope , and praying in hope , preaching in hope and hearing in hope , treading in hope , and reading in hope ( not so much of godlines somtimes too as of earthly gain ) but what is the hope of the Hypocrite , though he hath gained ? It is no better then the giving up of the Ghost when God taketh away his soul Job 27.18 . And what is the reason of all this vain hope , and ●on-proficiency , and impenitency under this best means [ as I.O. calls it i.e. Moses and the Prophets Writings ? Is it for want of having the Copies of their Writings among them ? No , ●here's Transcriptions of the Original of the Hebrew and Greek Texts of sorts enough , so many that they vary very much from each other , and cannot stand together in some greater matters , much less [ as I O. talks ] in every Tittle and Iota in unity among themselves : Is it for want of rendring of these Writings of Moses and the Prophets out of the Hebrew Copies into their own Mother-tongue ? No , the Transcripions are not so many and various , but the Translations are as many more , and more various , not only in respect of that variety of the Languages , into which , but also that more vast variety that is found in the Translations of them into but one , even our own English-tongue , whereinto they stand translated , so that he that is not in ' ove with such Translations as cross his carnal Interest , and serve not his will and earthly turn , may have his choice of any or many others that like him better : Is it for want of a competent number or quantity of Bibles printed to serve the numberless number of people named Christians in this Nation ? No , not so neither , almost every one that can read , and hath mony enough to buy one ( without which the Word of God , nor any other of his gifts are to be purchased , if the Simon Magusses may have their wills , who buy the Patent for the selling thereof , and yet sell but their own thoughts and words instead and under the name thereof ) will buy a Bible , what ever it cost , to carry with him to his Church ; and some will have two or three , and most houses some , and against the old Word is worn out , at the Sellers Shops there 's enough of the Word of God to be bought for money if the meer Letter were it and a number of new Bibles for all comers : Is it for want of hearing them read ? No! they are read too much , and heard read too often , unless they were more spiritually understood , and more carefully and practically observed : Is it for want of Interpreters , and Interpretations , Expositors and Expositions , Divines , and their Divinations what may be the minde of God in this , and that place of it , and what the drift and scope of the Penmen in such and such sayings , and their sense in such and such a sentence , and the meaning of such a Parable or Proverbial speech and the like ? Is it for want of men to give out their own judgements , opinions , and thoughts of things , and manifest their meer mindes about the matters therein contained ? No , there 's no need of this , it can do no good , for if it could , O the Ocean of Opinionists , Thinkers , and Thrusters out of their own thoughts of things , Doctors , Divines , Criticks , Scepticks , Schoolmen , Casuists , Commentators , and such like Diviners , Dreamers , and deep Divers after the marrow of that Divinity in the Scriptures , that lyes deeper yet then their shallow Head-pieces can ever reach too , who never yet got within the bones , nor entred farther then into the outside of the sealed Book , and the Letter , or meer literal sense of the Law and Testimony that is bound up from all , but Christs Disciples , yet they whiffle it to and fro , and weary the world out with the winds of their opinions , which , as they are as many more as the different Translations are , and more then the 32 winds or points upon the compass by 32 times twice told , so they blow and strive against each other upon the face of the earth to the disquieting thereof , as the Sea is disquieted , with their boysterous buslings , filling it with the froth of their own wisdome which is foolishness with God , foaming out their own folltes and fained senses upon the Scriptures , so fast and so flatly contrary one to another , that as the most must needs be false so 't is enough to confound and amaze mens minds [ they are so many ] to meddle to finde which is true among their meanings , and to set a man out of his own senses to set himself [ so several are they ] to seek out their several senses on the Scriptures , many bumbling Volumes , larger then the Bible it self being written , or some one Text of Sripture . Is it for want of power or efficacy in the Letter ? Yea that is one reason , for howbeit I.O. sayes , It is absolutely called the power of God , and effectual to salvation ; yet to his own confutation , I. O sayes ; the Letter is dead and ( without the Spirit ) of no efficacy for the good of souls : But another , and that not the least is because they live in Rebellion against the light , which while they turn not to , though Moses is read and the Prophets also , and all the Letter or Old Testament , yet the Vail remaineth over Moses and the Prophets faces , and ( as over the Iewes ) over the heart of these Christians also , which Vail is done away only in Christ , and in turning to his Light , and the Spirit within ; their minds are blinded being off from the Light , so that they know neither Christ , nor Moses , nor the Voyces of the Prophets that are so often read , which through ignorance they fulfill [ as the Iews did ] in condemning Christ , and putting him to open shame in his Light , Doctrine , and Disciples . Nevertheless if their heart shall yet turn to the Lord , that Spirit , and to his Light , which is within , that vail shall be taken away , and they shall see with open face , & behold the glory of God , and be changed into his Image , & be led indeed to that true Repentance , that is never to be repented of ; but if they continue in their unbeleef in the Light , and their hearturn not to the Lord , in and by the Light , in the time and space that is given them for that Repentance , yet at least the face of the covering , that is now cast over all people , and the vail that is yet spread over all Nations , shall be so far removed and destroyed at last , that there shall be repentance enough to no purpose , when it is too late , when the Gulph is once fixed and Abraham is seen by these rich worldlings , and Belly-gods afar or , and Lazarus in his bosome , when every eye that look's for him shall see him , who now cometh in the Clouds , and they also that have pierced him , and all Kindreds of the earth , that are no kin to him , shall wail because of him . Even so AMEN The Fourth Apologeticall , and Expostulatory Exercitation . CHAP. I. NOw to proceed in way of answer to I. O's . Arguments for the Scriptures , and Letter , and Book , and Bible , and Texts , and outward Writings of Moses and the Prophets , as the onely Rule , in alterable Standard , now compleated Canon , Touchstone of all Truth , to which , since its close , and consignation after Iohn had written , no new Revelations Writings , or Scriptures of the old Truth , as from the old Spirit of it , are to be added , no immediate manifestations , inspirations , motions , missions from God , as of old , to be expected , or , if pretended , to be admitted or owned , but to be damned down , as Delusion , Fanaticism , Enthusiasm , Quakerism , Diabolism , vain , uncertain , unprofitable , fancy , figment , detestable , meraae tenebrae & caecitas , fines salutares quod attinet , as to salvation meere darknesse , and blindnesse it self and what not that 's naught ? Seeing it is so , as abovesaid , that all these false Prophets and Divines can prevail no further then to tangle , and hamper , and hinder men , and to hide the truth , by that hideous heap of unharmoneous Heterogeneous , Heterodox , more then Orthodox volumes of Divinity , and to smoother , darken , confound and drive men away from the naked truth , and draw them off from the Scriptures themselves , that are plain and cleare to honest and plain-hearted men , by their Smoak , and Clouds , and Circumferences , and by that boundlesse , bottomlesse , incomprehensible , chafly Chaos of their contradictory and confused Commentaryes with which the world is now burdened , even beyond what it can well bear and contain ; sith I say there 's none to guide these poor erring , lost , perishing , and as yet more deformed , then reformed Nations , into the life of God , and power of godlinesse , from which they are alienated , because of the blindnesse of their hearts among all the Sons , whom they have brought forth , Isa. 51.18 . Neither any that can take them by the hand and lead them in the true way of eternall life , of all the Sons , whom they have brought up at their Vniversities , who sit together with them under the shaddow of death , notwithstanding all their Tumbling ore of so many Tames about the Scripture , is it then for want of true Prophets , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men divinely inspired , and sent of God to call people to Repentance , and to turn them to that light of God within , that leads to Repentance , by voice and writing to them , as them elves have had the true way thereof manifested in them by the light , as themselves , being taught of God , have learned and practiced it , and are moved of the holy Spirit to preach and presse the practice of it upon others , according to the scope of the Scriptures ? No! For there are many in England at this very day , speaking , reproving , writing , and prophecy●ng from the same light , and by the same Spirit , that the Scriptures came forth from , and as themselves have received and heard from the voice and mouth of God , and seen , felt , and handled of the word of life , as the Prophets , Amos 7. and the Messengers , and Ministers , of God and Christ of old Act. 26.16 , 17 , 18. 1 Ioh. 1.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , &c. The Spirit of the Lord , is not more straitned in these days from blowing where it lists , then it was in the dayes of old ; howbeit , because it lists not much ( as it never did ) to blow upon or inspire the learned Scribes , Hypocritical Pharisees , chief Priests , aspiring Rabbies , Divinity Doctors , Proud Diotrepheses , preheminence loving Praters , hireling Preachers . Fawning prudentiall Parasites , Politicall Polliticians and such like , but mostly upon a meaner sort of men as to outward account , these wise men are most hardly brought to beleive it to be so ; and so as said the Priests , Scribes , Pharisees , Rabbies , and Doctors of old of Moses and the Prophets , we own them , know them and their Scriptures ( which yet they knew not , nor the power of God ) We are their Disciples , wee 'l stick to their writings , that 's our compleat Canon , our stable Standard , our immutable measure , to which nothing must be added , and of Christ , and his in the dayes of his flesh , we know God spake to Moses , as for this fellow and his fellows , we know not whence he is , and whence they are , they are of the Devill , have a Devill and are mad , Why hear ye them ? they speak blasphemous words against Moses , and the Law , and this place , the holy Temple , and turn away much people saying God is not worshipped in Temples made with hands , but within onely in Spirit and Truth , talking as if they would teach us , as if they heard Gods voice , and not we , who search the Scriptures , and expound the Law , and have the Key of knowledge , have been train'd up in the Scriptures , in reading the holy letters , but these we take notice of them that they are ignorant unlearned men , yet they say we are unstable and unlearned and wrest Scriptures to own destruction , but whence hath this man letters having never learnt at Universities as we have done ? away with them and their Scripture , no more holy Scripture now , the Canon is compleated , the Standard sealed , no immediate motion now , no such mission as the Prophets had now , no speaking by divine inspiration now , no Divine authority in any mans writings now , though they write not others but the same Divine truths as of old , no extraordinary infallible ●uidance of men by the infallible Spirit of God now , and suchlike : Thus they said then , and thus our wise Ignorants at Athens say now of the same Spirit that then spake in Paul pressing others now to write , or speak to them of their wo●sh●pping an unknown God , seeing their Universities given wholly to Idolatry , and thus I.O. one of the sore men against the truth , What will these Bablets say , and in a manner so they say all : But slay friend Gods arm is not shortned ; neither is the mouth of God more made up now then formerly from making out and manifesting his own mind immediately from himselfe in the minds and consciences of men and women , so as that men may without manifest imprudence ( not to say impudence ) imagine so ignorantly as in effect I.O. doth that God spake his last to the Sons of men , and all that ever he meant from his own mouth to make known of his will to any man , when Iohn had , at the command of Christ , written that pretious Revelatio , ●which God , gave unto Christ , to shew to his servants , who was pleased to signifie it unto them by the hand of his servant Iohn , and when once in after ages a Syned of some honest men ( who we know not ) upon some some mistakes and sailings ( which we● I.O. confesses Tr. 2. c , 2. S. 4.5 . They were lyable to ) establish so much as they could get together ( which was but little , 't is like of that much that was written ) of the transcribed Copies of the holy mens Histories and Apostles Epistles , and letters to particular Churches and private persons , and canoniz'd , it together with the writings of Moses , and the Prophets , into such a standing Rule of faith and manners for all ages to come , that whatever should from thenceforth be found ( as not a little was , even of the Apostles own , and some of Christs own writings ) and whatever should be written after that with pretence ( as much hath been since then , not in pretence onely , but in truth ) of motion from the same holy spirit , should be shut out for ever from standing in their Canon , sith it came not in at that time to their hands , and be ever of so low esteem as not to be own'd among the rest , under so much as the name of holy Scriptures with them , but as to all ends , uses , and purposes , for which all holy Scripture is written , be utterly raced out of the Record , cancel'd , made void , and of none effect , while those few they Authoriz'd , because of their Stamp of the onely Standard upon them , must be had in as high , if not an higher Esteem , Honour , and Authority then the Light it selfe , from which directing holy men in the writing thereof , they had all the being they have at all , as holy Scriptures . Let not I.O. in any wise say so , for there are yet ( though himselfe is none of them ) 7000 of the people of Christ in England that bow not the knee to Baal , many of whom , as they are under the new Testament i.e. the Spirit , and not under the old i.e. the letter , where thou yet art , have ( even both men and women ) the promises * thereof made good unto them concerning the gift of the holy Spirit of the Lord , and power to prophecy , which of old also , the true had Mic. 2. and of judgment , and of might to declare unto the rebellious house of Iacob and Israel ( even the Heads and Princes thereof , if they abhor judgement and pervert all equity , and the Priests and Prophets thereof that Preach for hire and Divine for money and build Sion with blood and Ierusalem with iniquity , and yet leane on the Lord , and say is not the Lord among us ? none evill shall come upon us ) their sins and their transgression : And ( to use thy own words I.O. p. 331.332 . to thy self , who are much in the dark , as thou utterest them to such as are further in the dark behind thy self ) much more to the same purpose will same of them be found to say when men of ( outward ) wisdome and learning who are ( as they think ) able to instruct them , shall condescend personally so to do . Yea , of myself I will not speak , who by the grace of God am what I am , and if the least measure of that grace be imparted to me among other of his servants , that I should Preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ , it is to one , that , for ought I know , is of all the rest least worthy , or rather most unworthy of it : but I am bold to say so much , and no more then what will stand as truth against thine or any others gain sayings , that there are some , who do not more professe themselves to be , then they are indeed inspired by the holy Spirit , whose messages and ministrations , whether by voice or writing , are so immediate from the mouth of the Lord , that your not receiving , nor submitting to them on that account , but rejecting and denyall thereof with such rigour as ye do , doth justify your predecessors in all ages , who rejected and slew those that spake to them in the name of the Lord , and speakes out in plain terms , your imagination to be this , that you may with safety to your selves reject them whom God sends ; yea ( to go on yet for a while much what in thy own words , Tr. 1. C. 3. S. 9 , 10.11 . 12 ) There are some ( whether they work miracles yea or nay , as thou confessest most of the Prophets did not , that 's nothing to thee ) who pretend not to this inspiration falsely , but both can and do to youward insist upon this , that being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , divinely inspired , their doctrine is to be recieved by you as from God , and in their so doing it will be found in due time to be your sin , even unbeliefe and rebellion against God not to submit to what they speake in his name , as that of his word they receive from his mouth : and this is not onely pleaded and insisted on by some , but also ( whether their Testimony be received or not received by you preachers and the people whom you deceive ) it declares the foundation of its acceptance to be this ( viz ) its Divine Inspiration by the Spirit of God from whom it is , whence also it is ( though not so thought by you ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A message or word well worthy of all acceptance much more of much better entertainment then you afford it , who Mock , Scoff at , Whip , Scourg , Imprison , Revile , and evill Intreat the messengers thereof , and the earthen Vessels , in which God sends it as a Treasure to you , 2 Cor. 4.7 . that the Excellency of the Power may be of God , and not of man. So that it being rejected by you , and this untoward Generation , which by their blind leaders are guided in such crooked wayes , and caused to erre to their own destruction , Isa. 9.13.14.15.16 . you shall know it s not only with a refusal of its witnesse , and a high detestation of its pretence to be of God , but also with a high detestation of God himself , from whom it s not so much pretended to come , as t will once be found by you to come in Truth ; and what excuse , ground or plea , for such your refusal and detestation , you have against the time of Gods pleading with you for his people , Ioel 2.2 . &c. in the valley of Iehoshapat , or of the Lords Judgment , whether he is now bringing you down , the hour for which decision is neerer upon you , then you professing Persecutors , who yet awake not , are aware of , t is good for you now you have time , and not afterwards to consider , least to you cost you find the Truth of Qui non ante cover post delebit . the burden of Dumab , draws on and begins to lye hard upon his back , yet I know the seed of Esau , the fightlesse Seers , who see with their eyes shut , supposing themselves secure , being at repose yet on their high Mount Seir , and so looke askew upon the light and its children , and scornfully call to them out of Seir , watchman what of the night , &c. but for all this , that morning hasteth , which is their night , therefore , if ye will now enquire , enquire ye , return and come to the light , else wo and alas for ever , the Bare Book will not boot you , the Letter without the Light , ye look awry at , will little help you , the Scripture without the Spirit ye despise so cannot save you : But Si non ante diem libruin cum lumine poseas , vigil tor quebere . There be some them , and those not a few in those dayes , declining the word of God , while you , who have your dreams tell your dreams , faithfully as they have it , who , as they have received that mercy of the Ministry , saint not , but having renounced the hidden things of dishonesty , not handling the Word of God deceitfully , by manifestation of the Truth commend themselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor. 4.12 . who are not , as the many false Prophets are , hucksterizing , selling their own imitations of the true Prophets words , Counterfeit Wares for mony , and the back and bellies * sake , the master of their art of Preaching , instead of that which is currant , nor Shuffling off in the dark their words , for Gods Word , their own thoughts , conceits , and conjectures for God Councel , nor , as I.O. doth , calling light darknesse , and good evil , nor putting darknesse for light , and evil for good , as the light , and Treacherous Prophets and hirelings do , who will once have their hire , spoyle and pay from God , such as they look not for , as well as that they look for , at the law , from men , when they have made an end of spoyling , nor as our Carnal Spiritualty do , holding forth their hollow , Husky , holy Collations , and light Chaff for weighty wheat , but as in sincerity , as sent of God to turn men to it , holding forth the Light of God , and , as in the sight of God , speaking the true Word , and Gospel of God in Christ Iesus , which Gospel , if it be hid , is bid but to them that are lost , whose eyes the God of this world blinds , least the Light of the Gospel of Christ , should shine out in them , whose sin it is to refuse it , and duty it is to receive it , as that Word and Gospel of God , which is sufficiently manifested so to be , and easy enought by any but blinded blind ones to be discerned from that of yours , who defy the true light , and deify the naked letter , which is pretended so to be , yea as easy by such as are indeed desirous to see , as true ones are ( but not by such as fleeing the light , close their eyes , and seeing will not see least they see themselves to dwell in deceit , and by the light within , which manifests what 's within be reproved for it , Iohn 3.20.21 ) as the wheat is to be discerned from the Chaff , which may infallibly by being what it is be discerned from it : for the word hath such proper ties of weight , light , heat , power , profit , as whereby infallibly to discover , and distinguish it self from the Letter it self , much more from your light , dark , frozen , frail , and fruitles , fabrick of Theology , Who ( as Calidi , not to say Callidi , as you are in your Re Frigida ) by all your great pains , and great pains , and your great pay have hitherto sown little but the wind of your own words among the people , that love to have it so , for which and from which both you and they shall find neither corn nor meal , but at last reap the whirlwind , even the grievous whirlwind of the Lord that is gone forth in fury , and is to fall ere long with pain upon the head of the wicked . When it is come to pass ye shall consider it perfectly , Hos. 8.7 . Ierem. 23.18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , &c. Ier. 30.34 . Therefore it would be your wisdome to consider it now , whether the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or inspired ones of this age ( which are not yourselves , as your selves confesse , who nor do , nor dare , nor can , as the case is with you , Pretend to such intimate or Immediate acquaintance with the Father , Son , and Spirit ( which Trinity , notwithstanding , ye cannot but be tatling of , till you bewray your ignorance ) as to say that ye either feed or receive , or feed your flocks ( of Goats ) with what Word ye receive by inspiratiration from Gods own mouth ) are not , yea rather to know assuredly that they are those called Quakers , whose persons , together with their prophesyings , and preachings , ye reject and deride with detestation and envy , by the names of Euthusiasts and Enthusiasines . It is true ( as thou sayest ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There were false Prophets , that spake in the name of the Lord when he sent them not ; and may be now , and have been , and are , witness not onely the many millions of those Locusts , that stand now separated into three swarms , as was foreseen and foretold in the vision of the three unclean spirits , like Frogs , that have gone out to the deluding of Princes and people , even the great City , Woman or Whore , that hath reigned over the earth , and sate on the many waters , peoples , multitudes , nations and tongues , with whom both Kings and inhabiters of the earth ( being drunk & intoxicated with the wines of her wisdom ) have committed fornication , & run a whoring from the wisdom of God , divided and dividing the people that profess the name of Christ ( without his nature ) respectively into three PPParts , Rev. 16.14.19 . Rev. 2.20 , 21 , 22 , 23. Rev. 17.1.2.15.18 . ( viz. ) 1. Pope and his carnall crue of Cardinals , Mount Seniors , Priests , Iesuits , Monks , Friars of all sorts , and all the other sorts of his spirituall men and women , which are enough to weary one to read , much more to reckon them all up in writing . 2. Arch-Prelates , Prelates , Deanes , under which name I.O. was lately the onely man in England , till removed , that stood denominated , whose Popish Traditionall Title was Dean of Christ-church in Oxford , an Officer that Christ never instituted in any Church that he constituted ; Deans and Chapters , and all that hang on that Hirarchy , in the fall of whose Spirituall Courts Tithes went down too , as to the way of Recovery of them by any law , from any that are not free to pay them , if our wise Statesmen , who sate at the Stern , once had been made willing in their time , to see what they saw , before their fun was setting . 3. Presbyters , Parsons , Vicars , Curats , and all manner of spirituall persons , and their Officials , Clerks , Sextons , &c. depending still , together with some that were once Independents , as none of Christs , but nationall messengers for nationall stipends : Which said three swarms of Locusts , who love the dark smoak , they came out of more than the light , which dispels it , have covered over the whole European ●●●th ( and more too ) in all corners of it , and have what they could , withheld the wind of Gods spirit from blowing upon the earth , that themselves might eat up the good things thereof , and none of Christs spiritual ones appear to hinder them , Rev. 7.19.3 . But also , even among those that truly pretend to it , such as pretend falsely to the foresaid inspiration ; yet do not thou dream , that because among these , by Gods permission , as a snare rained down on , Ps. 11.6 . and a stumbling-block laid in the way of the wicked , that are disobedient , Ier. 6.21 . 1 Pet. 2.8 . there arise some false Prophets , therefore God himself hath no Time ones ; for if he hath , as so sure as thou hast clothes on thy back , he hath many more than thou art yet aware of , thou wilt get little by that fond conceit , fith ( as thy self truly sayest ) Those whom God 〈◊〉 send are to be received on the same 〈◊〉 , on which the other are to be refuse i.e. n paine of Damnation . Neither deceive thy selfe so far I.O. any more as to make and imagine it such an unwonted , wonderfull , impossible matter ( as in a manner thou dost ) that even in these dayes men and women too , should , as of old they were , be moved , and inspired , both to speake and write by the holy Spirit ; howbeit 't is true there are times of Gods going away and returning to his place withdrawing & hiding himself , & his face in a little wrath , for their forsakings of him , from his own seed , as it hath fell out for ages , and generations together , even 1260. years at least , wherein all the inward Temple , worship and worshippers therein , lay wast and trodden down by the Gentiles , or Nations , that have had it given them so to do , & to glory in that name of Christians without any true Christianity , and in literall formes and observations of externall Ordinances , according to the letter , which they have not kept to neither , but abominably corrupted themselves in the use thereof , and made void by their own tradition , without either of those two witnesses the Word and Spirit , which have been much more then the letter , abused and depressed into so low a condition , as to speak low out of the ground , and whisper out of the dust , and bear their Testimony fiting in Sackcloth , regarded and attended to but by a few , to which yet God is now giving power again to open their mouths , and to devour their enemies , and to burn up all that hurt them , and to smite the earth , and the dwellers in it , that rejoyce and make merry over them , with all Plagues , as often as they will , * yet thereis a time of his returning to his own again , and of being found of them that seek him , and of his appearing to all those that love , and wait for his appearing to their joy though the shame of their adversaries , and of bringing forth the blind that have eyes , and the deaf that have eares , and of opening the eye of the blind , and unstopping the eare of the deaf , and causing the waters to break out in the Wildernesse and streams in the desert , of pouring of floods upon the dry ground and making the thirsty Land springs of water : and of speaking himselfe not so sparingly as before , and of pouring out his Spirit on his Sons nad daughters , Servants and handmaids , that they shall prophesie , and of revealing himself in Visions , and of the heavens dropping down their dew , and of preparing himself as the morning to meet such as follow on to know him , that they may live in his sight . Though therefore I.O. as little believes this as one of the Lords of King Ioram did Elishas Prophesie of so great plenty in Samaria , after the wofull famine that came by the Syrians siege , when an Asses head was sold for 41. and the fourth part of a kab of Doves dung for 55. and may come to see it with his eyes , but not eat thereof , because he saith , as that Lord , if the Lord make windowes in heaven can this be , 2 Kings 7.1 , 2 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. yet such plenty of the Spirit of God shall be given out to them that believe in the light , that out of their bellies shall flow rivers of living water , and the spirit shall be a well of water springing up into eternall life , and there shall be a measure of fine flower for a shekell , and two measures of barly for a shekell , and preaching and prophesying by the Spirits motions , and writing by his inspirations , shall be as good cheap , as a measure of wheat for a penny , and three measures of barly for a penny , Rev. 6.6 , and abundance of oyle and wine , yea new wine , that is now in the cluster , which must no more be spoyled , nor hurt , nor destroyed by neither the great , nor : the little Foxes , but we will be to them that hurt , or hinder the tender grapes thereof , for a blessing assuredly is in it , Cant. 2.15 . Isa. 65.8 . Rev. 6.6 . then shall the Asses heads be priz'd no more so high , nor the Doves dung be sold so deare , nor the chaff that hath been sold for wheat be so costly as it hath been , nor any outward Excellencies , which are but excrement with the spirit and the spouse , who prize the Doves innocency above all that , nor fleshly wisdome , which is foolishnesse with God , be any more accounted on . And though this seem such a mervailous matter I.O. in thy eyes , and utterly beyond that diminitive belief , and that little faith thou hast , which if we may believe thy self , is for ought thou knowest , just none at * And what Testimony soever the spirit of God beaves of the Scripture , or of the Word of God , or of the Gospel , or of any anything else to us , so as on pain of Gods d spleasure to bind us to the belief thereof , it beares it in the hearts of men also , as well as in the Scripture ( though thou say falsly , that all it now testifies it testifies in the Scripture , and by that onely to the heart , and not in the heart immediately by it self ) or else it requires not the belief of it ) thou concludest thus ( viz. ) And if this be not a ●●●teme and foundation of faith ( and sure enough it is not so , if the spirit speak not the same within , that it doth without in the Letter ) then I publickly professe , that , for ought I know , I have no faith at all : He , that doth not know that he hath any faith , may thereby know assuredly that he hath not any . all , yet must it therefore be such a mervailous thing in the eyes of God , and of his people , who are not so incredulous of the Scripture as thou art , that God should speak with his own mouth to his own people , and vouchsase them so much mercy as to heare the joyfull sound of his his own voice , and reveale his mind and will to them by his own spirit ? indeed sometimes he is pleased to speak in one to another , as he did much in the Prophets to the Fathers , in Paul to the Churches , 2 Corin. 13.3 . in one Prophet in his Church , or two or three to all the rest , as he was pleased to move and inspire them by his spirit , 1 Cor. 14.24 , 25 , 29 , 30 , 31. and reveale any thing to them , and by his Spirit press them in their spirits , and give them utterance to utter it to others ; yet , if any spake as they ought , they were to speake as the Oracles of God , and to minister , not onely as of the ability that God gave , and not man bought at University , but also as of that , which came to them as the Word of God , uttered by his own voice in their hearts from his mouth out of the holy Oracle of God , 1 Pet. 4.11 . & when he so speaks his voice is known and owned by his own , who own not the voice of strangers , when their tongues run before their wits , & out of their time , to tell & talk in words of the self-fame truth , which , but by bare hearesay they know not , and at this day he speaks out in his servants to people , and to you Scribes that search the Scriptures , who call on you to heare what hee saith in you , though as your forefathers , John the fifth , you have not at any time in your selves heard his voice ( which if it were the Letter , you have often heard that read ) nor yet heeded such as spake to you from him , in whom he speaks : But doth all this exclude God from speaking , when and what he pleases , to any or every man immediately within his heart ? Was there ever any age wherein he debarred himself from this , unlesse in the case of aforesaid , wherein he was pleased to hold his peace , because men would not hear him , but stopt the eare like the deaf adder to what he said , because , being evil doers , they did not like it ? In which case , terras Astraea reliquit , is there not a time , wherein his very Adversaries , that will not hear his voice in order to their own peace , shall heare it whether they will or no to their own terrour ? will not he that fits in heaven ( as far off as you think that is ) utter his own voice as the roaring of a lion , so loud within their consciences , that they shall hear him speake to them in his wrath , vex them in his sore displeasure , who have vexed his spirit ? And do not the people of God ( though you do not ) hear what God the Lord himself will speak ? And will he not Psal. 85.8 , speak peace to his people , and to his Saints ? And are not such as have ears to hear bid to hear what the Spirit saith , not in the Scripture onely ( for that properly is not a voice , though figuratively it may be called so , no more than my Letter to a friend , in which he may read my minde , is truly and properly my voice , and our controversie with I. O. is much about proper names ) but in the heart , where to them that hear , he speaks the same that by his motion is written in the Scripture ? And do not Christs people hear his voice ? who , though they may read the Letter too , yet in that act can no more properly be said to heare his voice , than he properly to hear his Masters voice , that is an hundred mile off , while he is but reading something or other that was written , not by his Master neither , but by some other by his approbation , or appointment ? And are we not commanded to hear the welbeloved son of God ? And is it not dangerous to turn away the eare from him that speaks still from heaven , more then to turn away from Moses or the Prophets in whom he spake , and who spake , but from or by him here on earth ? And is not Christ ( the● Light of the world ) that great Prophet , who preacheth himself the Gospel in every Creature , whose voice whoever heareth not in all things whatever he saith must be cut off from his people * ? And is there not much more in the Scripture itself , which sends men not to itself so much , as to the hearing of God , Christ , and the Spirit , declared to the same purpose ? Why then should it be thought an incredible thing with thee I. O. or any else , that God should speak to men and manifest himself , and what is to be known of him , and of his mind to their salvation ( if they heed it ) to them now in their own hearts and consciences ? Doth not God himself speak are , yea twice , though man perceiveth it not , Iob 33.14 . Rom. 1 . 19● or that Christ should manifest himself in a more speciall manner and measure then to the world , who observe not when he speaks , nor ●what he commands , to his servants that love him and keep his commands , or that he should come into them , Rev. 3.20 . sup , abide , and be familiar with them , and ( not by the Scripture so much , for the world hath that declaration , that know him not , but ) by his Spirit of truth , which the world receives not , but resists , though it strives in them , and not without onely by the ministration of holy men conviaceth them , and preacheth to them , as in Noahs dayes , not by Noah onely , but in their consciences , should dwell in them , and , not in writings and proverbs onely , shew them plainly of the Father ? John 14.17 . to 26. John 16.25 . Or that any of his people that give eare to what he saith , and ●tar him , should have his secrets revealed in them , which God did then to his own people reveal to them within by his own Spirit in them , which knew and made them know all things that were hid from meer 〈◊〉 men ( though never so wise ) even the deep things of God ? or that any man now , that lives not in the flesh ( as ye do ) but in the Spirit , should say he is moved to speak , or prophesie , or reprove , or warn , or councel , or exhort and teach , or is inspired to write by the holy Spirit ? or that any who learns at the mouth of God ( as ye do not ) out of which cometh knowledge and understanding , and not any way else , and ministers , as he is moved , of what he hath learnt there , should say he ministers no more then what he hath heard immediately from God himself ? or that any that have the spirit of God for their guide ( as ye have not , who walk not after the Spirit , but after the Flesh in your conversations , and after your own conjectures about a Letter liable to be changed or corrupted in your Congregations ) should say they are guided by an infallible Spirit ? Is the Spirit of God , the light of Christ fallible , as the Letter is ? Are they not infallible , certain , unchangeable , incorruptible , so that such as are led thereby cannot erre , nor be deceived ? Do they lead into any iniquity , or uncertainty those that walk after them ? Is it not they that leave the paths these lead in , and walk after the flesh , and live by their own thoughts and opinions of the Letter , that is to be altered with ease at Criticks wills ( whom thou I.O. teachest too to alter it ) in their Religions , who run into by wayes ( for such the flesh leads to ) and into a wood of uncertainties , which the ba●e Letter ( as it is now ) leads them into that look to it onely , and besides the light that gave it forth ? And are any the Sons of God , save such as led by the Spirit of God ? And doth not that Spirit of God witness to the spirits of such within them , that they are his children ? Yet what a marvellous monstrous business , what a mighty dirty , what a deal of Do dost thou I.O. make in the 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. Sect. of the 3. ch . of Tr. 1. about this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or inspiration of God ? also elsewhere about the motion of the holy Spirit , T.I.C.I. S. 21.22 . and elsewhere ( viz. ) T. 2. C. 2. S. 4 , 5. T. 1. C. 5. S. 1. about both Infallibility and Divine Inspiration , and the infallible spirit , and the guidance and infallible direction of the spirit . Repl. Thou writest of these things as if they were ( as indeed they are ) not onely far off from thee , but also far above out of thy sight , and not only so , but ( measuring all by thy self , and others corn by thy own narrow bushell , and , as thou falsely sayest of the Qua. Ep. p. 29. Measuring other men by thy own ignorance , and what thou knowest not thy self , thinking its bid from others also ) thou removest them far away from all others also for many ages together , and from this very age wherein thy fallible erring self hast yet thy being , as if because thy motions and inspirations and spiritualities are fallible and carnall , and thy own spirit hypocriticall and imaginary , there were now none of that kind of spiritualnesse nor infallible inspiration , either in writings , or speakings , or walkings , or actings , any such direction and guidance of that true holy spirit of God , as was of old ; as if because thy self , and they that are after thy likenesse , neither hear at any time the voice of God , nor see his shape , nor have any such familiarity with his Spirit , as you have with that in you , which lusteth another way , nor such as his Ministers and Prophets had in former ages , therefore none in these days witnesse any nearer communion and communication therewith then your selves do , or at least none such as his messengers of old did , but all were left to gripe for the wall with you , add for the doore like the blind Sodomites ( your figure ) that ran in wrath upon Righteous Lot , as if they had no eyes ; as if the Spirit of the Lord were streitned from its immediate illumination of any , because it is so to you that strive against it ; And there were no such men ( because ye are not those men ) as perfectly learn ( without book ) what lessons by word of mouth God teacheth out of the sealed Book of ●his own councels to them that are willing to be taught by him , as all his children are , Isa. 54. 14. Ioh. 6.45 . Ier. 31.33 , 34. concerning the knowledge of himself and of his will. As if there were none at all now , nor ever to be any more while the world stands ( because your selves are not so ) any such , as were heretofor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men of God inspired by the Spirit of God , infallibly guided , moved , acted , or led in their preachings , writings , doings , by the infallible guidance and direction of that holy Spirit . As if to be thus were to be more then mer , and so indeed it is , then such men as you , who being in the fall , and out of that Wisdome and Image , wherein ye were created , must ( for all that wisdom , ye are since then entred far into ) know your selves to be but the beasts that perish , Ps. 49.20 . Eccl. 3.18 . but not a jot more then to be men indeed . What mean'st thou else by those & the like phrases in the places above p●●●ted at ? wherein with limitation and restrictively to the Primitive times , and exclusively of all after ages thou writest thus of these things ( viz. ) They were born , acted , carried out by the Holy Ghost * to speake , deliver , and write all that , and nothing but that to every tittle , that was brought to them , &c. Suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinely inspired , and should so professe himself in the name of the Lord , as did the Prophets of old , Amos 7. supposing I say he were so indeed , &c. Repl. As if thou didst suppose , that if any man in these dayes should professe himself to be sent of God , as Amos was , he must undoubtedly be a Deluder : As if because ye witnesse no stronger motions from people to people , place to place , in your ministrations , then the assurance of some bigger benefice , better booty , or sweeter subsistence ( which is the primum mobile in most nationall mens minds , in their movings and removings to and fro ) and no more immediate mission from God then what is mediante Magistratu , &c. by the Magistrates and Patrones of the place , or at the best the bare benevolence or good wil of the people ( whose ill will if ye have , ye will obtrude your selves up-them too , if the living like you , and you can but procure the patent ) it must needs be supposed and taken for granted thereupon , that such a sending as that Amos had , is but falsly pretended to . So speaking of the Hebrew points , They were , sayest thou , compleated by the men of the great Synagogue , Ezra & his Companions guided therein by the infallible direction of the Spirit of God. So speaking of the first transcribed Copies of the Scriptures of the New Testament , thou sayest , There were Copies quickly given out to faithfull men , whilst the infallible Spirit yet continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner : and of the first Transcribers thou saist in the next Section , that they were not all or any of them infallible and Divinely inspired . Repl. Now I say not that either all or any of these Transcribers were infallibly or Divinely inspired , nor canst thou say they were not ; for neither thee nor I know who they were , and they might or might not for ought either of us know , for the infallible spirit continued his guidance no doubt to such as took him , and not a fallibly transcribed Letter to be their guide , both then and long after that , and also doth now in that manner which thou callest extraordinary ( though it was but his ordinary guidance ) to such as give up to him , and to any but such as thee , who being not guided by him , thy selfe conceivest it some strange and extraordinary businesse for any now adayes to professe themselves so to be , but with I.O. the extraordinary guidance of the Spirit of God is his immediate and infallible guidance , his ordinary is his mediate fallible guidance : Oh prime Doctrine for a Doctor ! surely if the Spirit of God have any fallible guidance at all , and thou be led at all by him , he vouchsafed thee but his cheaper , ordinary , remote , and far off , and fallible guidance in this piece ; but it s his infallible guidance and direction , which thou callest extraordinary , he now guides by , for the Spirit hath by indirect and false directions , nor fallible guidances that I know of . I say I meddle not to affirme one thing or other of all these Transcribers , what they were it makes no matter , and is neither here nor there to me , whether they were infallibly guided or divinely inspired , yea , or nay ; but this I would fain know , what thou meanest by some of thy expressions , and wherefore thou talkest as thou dost , and what reason thou hast so reasonlesly to restrain and streighten the spirit of the Lord , which to do is none of the Lords doings , Mic. 26.7 , 8 , 9 , 100 , 11. and to pound him up into such a small point and pittance of time as the primitive ages ( as ye call it ) of the Gospel , and to lock him up into that little narrow nick , so that he must either then speak all he hath to say to the world , and his owne people in it , or else for ever after hold his peace , and must inspire all he means to inspire , and lead and guide all he means to lead and guide by his own immediate , extraordinary and infallible direction then , or not at all ; there being now another ordinary fallible Ruler , Rule , Guide , Leader and Commander of the people ( viz. ) some of the Stories , Letters , and Epistles , that were written lately by his motion and direction to be by fallible men transcribed , and ere long by a Synod of who knows whom ? to be authorized , as the onely and most perfect Rule , Directory , infallible Canon , chief Leader and Commander , that must be wholly substituted in his room , and take his place , to which himself ( if ever he speak more ) must , as well as all false spirits , submit himself to be tryed , and be accountable , so that if he offer to lead , guide , move , inspire any to write , and speak , or prophesie , extraordinarily , immediately , infallibly , or any otherwise then ordinarily and fallibly , or immediately , or infallibly speak to any from thenceforth , so as to send them ( who were mad indeed , as the world counts them , if they should go unsent on such rugged service , which false Prophets , Ministers of the Letter , and of mens making , who love their ease , and to sleep in a whole skin , will be sure to keep far enough from ) to reprove , as immediately from himself , and to warn the wicked world when it lies in wickednesse , or call men to repentance , or do as he has done by Gods permission in that age , or if he send any of his messengers , as he did Paul and others , to exhort , teach , reason , dispute , in Towns , Cities , Vniversities , Streets , Markets , or to enter , never so peaceably , into the Synagogues and Temples to talk and make disturbance among the Priests and their people there , after once the Old Testament Iewish Church is down , and the Old Testament Christian Church in many outward things after its likenesse is so well founded and established in its stead , that the Priests and Ministers thereof are warm , and begin to fit at ease in their functions of Tithes , outward benefits and blessings , earthly honours , Divine and Ghostly Titles of Rabbi , Doctour , Lord Arch-B●shop , Arch-Deacon , Reverent Clergy , Orthodox Divine and a mint more of such like Clericall Calleries , and spirituall Renowneries , Parochiall , Provinciall , Diocesian D●gnities , Arch-Advancements , and Advantages , then both the said Spirit of God and all his Emissaries , Messengers and Messages , then and from henceforth shall be both rejected and condemned under their severall respective names of Sch●sme , Schismaticall , Schismaticks , Hereticall , Heresie , Hereticks , lying Spirit , Delusion , Deluders , Fanaticall , Fanaticisme , Fanaticks , Enthusiasticall , Enthusiasme , Enthusiasts , Dreames , Dreamers , Fictions , Figments , Quakers , and whatever other ignominious termes any ungodly Scoffers can invent , and shall please themselves to reproach them by ▪ and moreover the said Messengers shall be had and held as Disturbers of the publick peace , and be proceeded against as Rogues , Vagrants , Vagabonds , that ( as the first Apostles had not for the Gospels sake , though else they had ▪ and were as sufficient in the outward as other men , 1 Cor. 4.9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. ) have no certain dwelling place , and be ( as they often are in the same cause ) sent away with a passe ) banisht , whipt , ston'd , set in the stocks , imprisoned , Boca●doed , and what way the Magistrates shall please , at the suggestion or direction of the Ministers , or the Mayo●s by the advice of the Vicechancelours ( who are supream directive , though the other corrective , as the Constable is over the B●sholder , which at his appointment is to correct the Beggars ) be defamed , shamefully abused , and intreated , and made a spectacle to the World , and to Angels , and to Men. Now I. O. what meanest thou ? or what ground hast thou thus to forbid the Spirit of the living God ? Hath God prohibited him ? hath he any where limited himself from speaking immediately , infallib●y to the Councel , Guidance , Comfort , Assistance of his people ( in these latter dayes especially ) without book , any more than in former ages , before the letter was , and in the first age , wherein the Gospel began to flourish , if men had not sneapt it , and the glorious light thereof to shine out as the Sun in its brightnesse , but that the Devil and his Imps besmoak'd the Sun and Aire , whom in his just judgement God suffered so to do , because men began to dote one upon another , and to set up Idols and Images in their minds of good writings ( that were written for another end by the Spirits motion ) Histories , Letters , Epistles , and instead of the Law of the Spirit of Life and Light , which is by Christ Iesus , to magnifie the outward Letter and make it Honourable ; which is but mens wi●nesse for God , and to run a whoring after it from Gods own Witnesse , even his Light and Spirit in the Conscience ? Must the Spirit be bound now by thee to read his minde to men in a book of mens writing at first by his own Guidance , and of fallible mens mistanscribing from the hands one of another through so many ages , or else he must be silent , & not manifest his mind at all ? He must read his old Sermons , it seems , but he must not preach new ones , he may read in the Letter what he did reveale , but must come forth in no new Revelations now of the old thing , nor preach immediately in mens minds any more , as he had done from the beginning of the world to that time , and inspired immediately whom he pleased : Is not this to muzle him up , as the B●shops were wont to doe the Parish Curates , lest too much Truth should come forth ; and as they do where the Pope hath most to do at this day , so that they may read ( not too much Scripture neither , for therein I confesse the case is a little altered for the better in England ) but old mouldy . Mass books , and Forms of Service in Latine of their own setting out , in which there is here a little and there a little sprinkling of some Scriptures , mostly out of the Psalms , which they most corrupt , and make certain Sing songs out of , or if there be any Homilies read , it s a mighty matter , but as those the Friars make are worth little , and some of them worse then naught , so , as bad as they be , there is few Sermons to be heard throughout the Popedome : and as they allow men to read Writings of their own setting out , but not preach nor speak in any other order , method , manner , or form of words , then as they find there , so thou wilt allow the Spirit to speak to men in and by that letter he caused once to be written ; he may read his mind in mens hearts by that , or have it read by mens mouths one to another if he will , but no preaching now by himself within or by his immediate inspiration by men without , nor writing neither ; but it must come to the touchstone of what he bade Paul , Peter , or others to write , before which , whoso shall presume to say it is of God , or from God immediatly at all , though it do agree never so much with that ( as all that is of God and from him doth , and cursed be he that speaks contrary to what was of old written , rightly understood ) or shall say 't is Truth before our time-serving Tryers have tryed it by that , who understand it not themselves , much lesse are fit to try Doctrines by it , let him be dealt with according to the foresaid provision against Delusion , made of old in the night time while men slept , in that behalf . But is God , and Christ , and the Spirit , so sparing towards his people , and so niggardly in dispensing Truth , in revealing his Righteousnesse ( which he is now bringing neere ) and in shewing his Salvation which now is not to tarry to them that long for it , and have long lookt for it according to his promise , as those narrow headed , niggardly hearted Nothings and Novices are , whose work is all along ( as dumb as they are from opening their mouths otherwise ) to bark and bite them back again , that having left off to linger any longer at their lips , and as well to feed from their mouthes , as to feed or put into them , make more hast then they would have them from the depths of Hell and Darknesse towards Heaven , Gods high and holy Hill ? Nay verily , he sayes to his servants , Open thy mouth wide and I will fill it , and stands ready to make good that blessing he hath pronounced to such as hunger and thirst after righteousnesse ( viz. ) that they shall be ( from himself , who only reveales it ) no lesse then filled with it : Thus liberal the Lord and his Spirit is . Yet these are the doings of the Churle , whose instruments are evil , and of the vile person , who ye● would fain be lookt upon as liberall too , as he hath been by such as saw him not in darker times , nor discerned how he fed himself , and not the flock , and minded his own matters , even to make meat for his own belly of them , more then to make meat enough for the sheep in that dark and cloudy day , Ezek. 24.8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , &c. But the hour cometh , and now is , wherein a Man , even a shepheard , whom he knows not , shall reign in righteousnesse , and be as Rivers of waters in a dry place , and as the shadow of a great rock in a wea●y land , wherein the deaf shall hear the words of the book , which are sealed from the back-side Admirer , the eyes of the blinde shall see out of obscurity , and out of darknesse , the eyes of such as seeing will see shall be no more so dimme as they have been , and the eares of such as hear must hearken unto him ; the heart also of the rash or hasty , that without heed have run they know not whether , shall understand knowledge , and the tongue of the stammerers be ready to speak plainly , they also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding , and they that murmured shall learne Doctrine . Then the vile person shall no more be called liberall , nor the Churle said to be bountiful , for the vile person will work villany , and his heart will work iniquity to practise hypocrisie , and to utter errour against the Lord , to make empty the soul of the hungry , and to cause the drink of the thirsty to faile , the instruments also of the Churl are evil , he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poore with lying words , even when the needy steaketh right things : but the liberall deviseth liberall things , and by liberall things shall he stand : In that day the burden of the insolent Antichristian Assyrian , that hath so straightly besieged the people of God , that dwell in Sion , and cut off from them ( so far as God would suffer him ) ▪ he stay & the staft , the whole stay of bread , and the whole stay of water , shall remove from off Sions shoulders , and his yoke from off her neck , yea that yoke shall be destroyed because of the anoynting , Isa. 10.27 . for the spirit shall be poured out upon them that wait for it from on high , and the liberall soul shall be made fa● , and he that watereth shall be watered also himself , and the wildernesse shall be a fruitfull field , in which judgement and righteousnesse shall remain , and the works of righteousnesse shall be peace , and the effect of righteousnesse quietnesse and assurance for ever , and they shall be blessed that sow beside all waters , and the soul of the diligent shall thrive and be fat , but the soul of the vile person and niggard , and of the sluggard shall desire , but have nothing , yea , their Vintage shall faile , and their gathering shall not come , and their fruitful field shall be turned into a forrest , they shall be stript and made bare , and sit with sackcloth on their loins , and lament for the tears , for the pleasant fields , and the fruitfull vine , and their pallaces shall be forsaken , their tents and towers shall be for d●ns , and that which now is the pasture of wild asses , Iob 11.12 . Isa. 29.18 , 24. shall be no more enjoyed by them for ever , Isa. 32. Wherefore then ●ayest thou I. O. with Restriction of the Spirits guidance to those first generations thus ( viz. ) While the infallible spirit continued his extraordinary guidance ; and thus ( viz. ) guided therein by the infallible direction of the spirit of God , and , by way of exclusion of after-ages , and more expresly of this age , thus ( viz. ) They were born , acted , carried out by the Holy Ghost , to speake , deliver and write , &c. and suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( 1. ) inspired of God , and should professe himself so , and were so indeed as the Prophes of old , Am. 7. Let me expostulate the case with thee a little about these expressions , whereby thou seemest to shut all the past primitive times from any participation of the movings and actings of the Spirit , as those that have neither part nor portion in that matter of his infallible guidance and direction . First then , not denying what Christ himself foretold , Iohn ●4 . 28 , 30. Iohn 16.16 . ( viz. ) That he would go away for a while , and his Disciples should not see him , and the Prince of this world which hath nothing in him should come , and interpose himself to the great interception of that primitive Communion the Saints then had with him and his Spirit , so that he would not have very much talk with them thereafter : let me ask thee this much , Did he say he would leave them for ever , and never have any talk or words with them more , then what they should find of his written in the Scriptures , of such as should write some few things , and a little of that much which they knew of his minde ? Did he say he should not speake at all , not so much as by his Spirt ? Nay rather , did he not say , that so soon as his fleshly pretence was withdrawn , he would send the holy Spirit himselfe the comforter to supply the room of that personall and bodily appearance , wherein he then stood among them , which they were so in love with , and so loath to part with , that they were ready well-nigh to dote so upon it , as to let sorrow fill their hearts to think they should be utterly without his tuition , as sheep without a shepherd , if that should vanish and be removed ? In the departure and absence of which , notwithstanding he told them it would be never the worse , but much the better , and more expedient for them ? For if I goe away ( saith he ) the Comforter cannot come , but if I go I will send him unto you : which Comforter was himselfe in Spirit ; the presence of which in the heart gives nearer acquaintance and fellowship with Christ and the Father , then his abode among them , & their sight of him in the flesh could possibly do : * for the sight of him in the flesh the world may have , and had , which is to little effect if the other be wanting ; but his presence in the Spirit is that which is of Power and Efficacy , though yet in two different wayes ( viz. ) of bare conviction or condemnation to the one , and refreshment and consolation to the other , both to the World and to the Saints , though there be no sight of him as in the flesh any more by either : I will send the Holy spirit the comforter to you ( saith he ) and he shall convince or reprove the world also : Doth Christ therefore say he will leave them comfortlesse ( i.e. ) Orphans , Iohn 14.17 , 18. deprived utterly of his presence , because he said he ( i.e. ) in flesh would go away ? Nay ( saith he ) I will come to you ( i.e. ) in Spirit , the Spirit of truth which dwelleth in you , and shall be in you , and though the world seeth me no more when I am gone , because though the Spirit of Truth be sent into them , and is nigh to men , even striving , preaching , reproving in them , yet they recieve him not , neither see him , nor know him ; yet ye see me , and because I live , ye shall live also : and doth he not say that this spirit of truth should lead and guide them into all truth , and bring all things to their remembrance whatever he spak● , while he was seen in the flesh ? Which the letter doth not , for there were many more things that Iesus spake and did , that are not written there , so many , that if they should be written every one , it might be supposed the world could not contain what should be written , John. 14.26 , 13 , 21 , 25. And howbeit he intimates a more sparing Communion in Spirit with his D●sciples and Church , which would be permitted to come to passe by the coming in of the Prince of this world , wherein there should not be so much talk as there should be before , and would be again after that gloomy day was once over , wherein the manifestations of him ( though as infallible in that small measure , wherein they should be made , for gradus non variant naturam rei , yet ) as to the measure , would not be so great as at other times ; of which going away , and withdrawing even in the spirit also he seemes to speak , when he saith , A little while and ye shall not see me : in which Eclipse the chidren of the night must have a revelling night of rejoycing over the Word , and Spirit , and Saints sitting in sackcloth , and an hour of laughter and merriment at the power of 〈◊〉 its prevailing , Iohn 16. to 22. yet doth he say that Eclipse should be ●o●a●l ? Was there not some few in every age , in whom the Spirit bare a testimony , and by whom to the blind world also of little truth ? And did he not say the Spirit should be in them , and abide with them ( i.e. ) in the same manner of infallibility in manifestation of whatever he makes known , though not in the same measure of manifestation of the truth , even for ever ? Iohn 14.16 . And did he not say that the Spirit of truth should testifie of him when he came , and so consequently his testimony must be with his Disciples and Church for ever ? Iohn 15.26 . Which testimony is not that of the letter which men wrote at his motion ( as thou falsely supposest ) for that is mans mediate testimony , and not immediately the Spirits , any more then the testimony that men bear by word of mouth , as they are moved ; of which in the very next verse ( i. e. ) Iohn 15.27 . Christ calls their testimony , and not the Spirits , and ye also shall beare witnesse ( saith he ) putting a difference between his Disciples testimony by the Spirit , and that of the Spirit by it self ; for that of the Spirit is the Word it self that is testified to by inspired men , whether in writing or speaking , and not the writing or the speaking it selfe . The Word ( I say ) put by the Spirit into mens mindes , and into their mouthes , which Word is promised to abide with his for ever : and so saith I. O. many times over in his Book , repeating that Scripture , and putting almost the whole stresse of his ill cause upon it , and bringing it in the folly and blindnesse of his minde to prove the letter by the promise of God himself , of necessity to remaine inviolated , inalterable and uncorrupted for ever , whereas the Spirit speaks it not of the letter at all , but of the Word , which should be put into his peoples mouth , Isa. 59.21 . The Word which I put into thy mouth shall not depart from thy mouth , nor the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth , and for ever , which strengthens what I have now in hand to prove ( i.e. ) the continuance of the Spirits immediate movings of God ; people under the Gospel more or lesse , even for ever : And doth not Christ also say , Mat. 28.20 . to his Disciples , and in them to his Church , which is a successive body , and not simultaneous , nor appearing wholly in this world , at , nor altogether at one time , Lo I am with you alwayes , even to the end of the world ; and if there have been a time of more darknesse then ordinary , even to his own , by reason of Christs absence , and the Devils presence in the world , yet more or lesse to his own , which are those that own him and heed his voice , he hath ever appeared ; but however , as his promise was to be with his more or lesse to the end , so at the end his promise is to be by his Spirit more with them then ever ; I will ( saith he ) speaking of his returne after the mournfull time of his absence who is the Bridegroom from the Bride ) see you againe , and your heart shall rejoyce as a woman when her houre of travel is over , having no more remembrance of her sorrow , because a man child is borne unto her and into the world , and your joy shall no man take away , so that in these dayes we may expect more then ever was enjoyed before , the glory of the second Temple being to be greater then that of the first , which was trodden down , & more pourings out of the Spirit then the primitive ages had , these being the dayes wherein refreshment is to break forth from the face of the Father , wherein he will send , Act. 3.19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , to his Church , Iesus his Son , who hath withdrawn and retired , and been retained in the heavens till these times ( who so readeth this let him understand ) which are the times of the restitution of all things that ever haue been out of order , and of his people , since they ran astray from God , which have been spoken of by the mouth of all his holy Prophets since the world began . Why then sayest thou , while the infallible spirit continued his guidance , as if after he should come he was to go suddenly quite away again , of whom Christ , while present in flesh , saith he was after his passing hence to come and to continue in and with his people , Mat. 28. throughout all ages , in all which ages he had people and a seed , as in Eliahs time , Rom. 9.27 , 29. and a remnant , though small and unseen , Rom. 11.4 . left trodden under foot by the outward Israel , that held the outward Court , which were as the sand of the Sea for multitude , even to the end , Iohn 14.25 , 26. What did the promise of Christ fail to his own because of the worlds unbelief ? and did he leave them to be guided by the Prince of this world that was to come , and by his blind guides to guide and govern the world , and have his kingdome in it a while ? and was his own seed , which never consents to any iniquity , but condemnes it , given up by God , because the seed of evil doers was to be guided by the spirit of the God of this world , that totally blinded some from looking at the light , and by the man of Sinne and Son of Perdition , to be strongly deluded to damnation by the mystery of his iniquity , who was Permitted indeed to withhold , and hinder , and let not a little , till he should be taken away ? but after That wicked should be revealed in his time , was not the Lord to be revealed again in his time , which is the principall , and most proper and seasonable opportunity for Christ to appeare in his Spirit , and shew himself in , 1 Tim. 16.15 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in its proper times : And was he not to conjure the other lying spirit with the spirit of his mouth , which is not the letter , that declares of the Word , but the living Word it self , which opens the Letter , also the sword of his mouth put then into the mouth of his seed as aforesaid , yea into the mouths of very Babes , to the stilling of the enemy and avenger , and to destroy it with the brightnesse of his coming ? What Spirit was to take the guidance of his people , if his own infallible spirit were not to continue with them for ever ? or would he deprive them of the presence of his infallible spirit in their hearts , and place it without in the fallible Letter , so that if ever they would see or speak with his spirit , they must look for him , and hear what he testifieth there onely ( so I. O. talkes , T. 1. c. 5. ) and must go forth and talk with him there onely ( i.e. ) without , but not within , he being gone forth from his dwelling in the hearts of his people , now to dwell in the Letter onely , and minded there and no where else to be spoken with . And why sayest thou while the infallible spirit of God continued his guidance in an extraordinary manner ; And again , T. 2. C. 5. S. 1. the infallible direction of the spirit of God ? Hath God any other then that infallible spirit ? and if he meant to direct his people at all by his spirit in the dismal times that were to come , must it it not be by that infallible spirit continuing his infallible ( which thou callest extraordinary ) guidance and direction , or else by none at all ? Or hath God two spirits to direct his own by at sundry times , one extraordinary and infallible , the other fallible and ordinary ? and hath that nfallible spirit of his two kinds of guidances and directions , one extraordinary and infallible , the other fallible and ordinary , which extraordinary and infallible spirit and his extraordinary and fallible guidance was to continue with them but a while , it being for high , and holy , and extraordinary dayes and times , the ordinary and fallible for more ordinary and lower dayes and times , as that the presence of which may as well serve the turn then , and his people must be contented with it ? so making them like the Popish Priests and people of the world , which have , as at Rome and elsewhere , ordinary Ornaments , Lessons , Anthems , Songs and Services , that must serve for every ordinary day , and extraordinary shewes , and sing-songs , and ornaments , and number of candles , and fine candlesticks , plush canopyes , and copes , Altar-clothes , white Surplices , Pictures , Pompes , and pipings , as on some great Saints holyday , or festivall times , or general proecessions ; or as our poor still bepoped people have here , one fine suit for Sundayes and holidayes , and a cheaper and lesse costly one for working dayes . Or when this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or divine guidance and inspiration is pleaded by thee as peculia● to those first times , I inquire of thee whether there be any middle way , T. 1. C. 3. S. 8. but either that the Saints in after-times ( if guided by the guidance of the spirit of God at all , and that thou darest not deny , though thou own his guidance by the letter onely ) be guided by it , as an infallible spirit , giving them that infallible guidance which thou callest extraordinary , or as a fallible spirit , allowing them not so much as the Saints of old , but affording them onely some kind of ordinary or fallible guidance and direction ? for it remaines ( according to thy principles ) that it must be one of these , or else there is some middle way , some midling spirit of God , and some middle sort of direction of that spirit , that is neither fallible nor infa●lible , but between both , partly fa●lible , partly infallible ; some participie , that i● neither one nor the other , but taking part of both fallibility and infallibility : And howbeit this is such a messe of mixture as may well make awise man ( and excuse him in it too ) believe him to be no wiser then he should be , and to have Hand plus cereb●i , quam cimex sanguinis , that makes it , yet I know not why thou mayst not as well make God to have two spirits , and his spirit two guidances ( viz. ) one infallible , one fallible , or one absolutely infallible , and another neither fallible nor infallible , as thou makest God to have two Words ( viz. ) on that infallible living Word , which the fallible dead Letter declares of , the other that fallible dead Letter , which declares of that infallible living Word ; for each of these thou makest the Word God ; yea , O the depths of the Doctors and Divines of our times ! thou art not onely so exceeding expert in cutting and cobling , dividing , and botching , and piecing , and patching for thy own turne , as , when thou wilt , to turn two into one and one into two , but also so well vers'd and exactly taught in the point of Trinitizing , as to turne that one Word of God at first into two , and at last , secundum quid , into three ; for whether we examine what thou sayest of either the Letter , or the Word it self , this testimony thy book beares to them both ; 1. as to the Word , thou sayest in one place ( truly ) it's Living , T. 1. C. 4. S. 19. in another place thou sayest ( horresco referens ) more then I dare say for the world , whatever I say of the Letter , that the Word is dead , T. 2. C. 5. ( but falsely figured our with the figure of 4. ) S. 12.2 . as to the Letter , thou sayest in one place ( viz. ) Ex 3. S. 4. It is living , and no where said to be dead , * yet in the forcited falsely figured chapter , S. 12. thou thy self ( as no where , as the Letter is said so to be ) sayest thy own self that the Letter is dead : Thus Gods one Word is cut out by thee into two ( viz. ) the Letter and that Word , it witnesses of , and then each of these are cut out into three , for , which ever of these two be that t●ue Word of God ; or if thou taking these conjunctively , wilt have them one , at least thy opinion , as exprest in those places put together , is tantamount to no lesse then this , ( viz. ) that God hath 1. a living Word , 2. a dead Word , 3. a Word that is both dead and living . And why sayest thou of the Prophets and Apostles , they were borne , acted , carried out by the Holy Ghost , to speake , deliver , write , &c. and suppose a man were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inspired by the Spirit indeed : As if it were a matter now not to be expected in this age , as if it were no lesse then a wonder ( but so the Saints and Prophets were in every generation to thy generation , therefore I wonder not that thou fo wonderest at it , that any should now professe so to be , though sapiens miratur nihil , and the things of God are no where wondered at or evil spoken of , but where ignorance of them is ) to see such a man as can truly say he is moved of the Lord , and inspired with his spirit , whereas when was it otherwise in any age wherein God had Saints ? And who is otherwise that is not in name onely but a Saint or a Christian indeed and truth ? Was ever any otherwise , or lesse then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , inspired of God , that was born , acted , carried out by the Spirit ? and was any otherwise or lesse then so , that is moved , guided , led by that Spirit , to act , speake , write , &c. and ought any now , any more then formerly , or do any now , that are truly Saints , act , write , speak , think any thing more then formerly out of the Spirit , ●or in the Flesh , that is of any savour , or hath any acceptance in the sight of God ? Is that accepted of God , that is done , written , spoken , thought , ministred out of the Spirit , or in the Flesh , not in and by the motions of the Spirit , but in and by the motions of the Flesh , and in the wisdome and will of the Flesh ? Is not all that Cains sacrifice , that is offered in that nature of his , or while men are yet but in the Flesh , not in the Spirit , which Sacrifice is ( as all wicked mens are , while their ear is turned from the Law in the Spirit , i.e. the light , and Spirit of God within ) abomination unto God ? And are not all I. O's . prayers , preachings , writings , who dare not pretend to have , live in , be moved , or guided by the infallible Spirit of God in ought that he does , acted and done in the Flesh , and the oldnesse of the Letter ? and is any thing that 's done in the fleshly minde , thoughts , imaginations , wisdome , worth a Rush , when the very wisdome of the flesh is enmity against God ? and ●all the enmity is to be slain , and not any of it accepted , or to be reconciled for ever ? Do not all the Israel of God ( that are Israel , not after the Flesh , or the Letter , but after the Spirit , the Iewes and the Circumcision , not outwardly in the Flesh and Letter , but inwardly in the Heart and Spirit ) Do not all these minde the same thing , that one and the self-same spirit , and as far , and in such a measure , as every one hath attained it , walk by the same rule thereof , Phil. 3. Galat. 6 ? Walk they not in the same spirit ? walk they not in the same steps , which that Spirit of God in them treads out for them ? Have they not that Spirit of Christ ? And if any man have it not for his Guide , Leader , Governour in all he doth , as well as his Comforter , is he Christs ? He that hath it not dwelling in him , infallibly directing , divinely inspiring him , is he Christs ? Do not all that are in Christ Iesus , to whom there is no condemnation , all save such as go condemned in themselves , to whom there is nothing but condemnation from God , walk , not after the flesh , but after the spirit ? Do they not live in the Spirit , walk in the Spirit , pray in the Spirit , sing in the Spirit , serve in the Spirit , and not in the Letter , minister every one as of the ability God giveth from the Spirit , not barely from the Letter ? And so though they may use the very words that are Letter , and be well read in the Letter , and quote the Letter ( as Christ did , and the Prophets , and Apostles did the outward writings one of another ) and by the Spirit be guided to utter the same words verbatim . See Isa. 2. Mic. 4. and be mightier in the Letter then those that are Ministers of no more then the Letter , yet are Ministers not of the Letter , but the Spirit . Are they ( as well as the Spirit is in them ) not in the Flesh , but in the Spirit ? Are not all that are not in the night , and in the darknesse , and the children thereof , but the children of the day , & of the light , ( which is the Lords day ) in in the Spirit , Rev. 1.10 . Do they not by the Spirit mortifie the deeds of the body ? Are they after the flesh ? Come they not by walking in the Spirit , not to fulfill the lusts of the Flesh , but to crucifie the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof ? Doth not the Spirit of God in them I ust against the flesh ? Doth not the law of the spirit of Life , which is by Christ Jesus , deliver them that follow it from the law of Sin and Death , that they were once captivated by ? Doth not the Spirit quicken and give them life ? Doth it not help their infirmities , pray in them with sighs and greanes , and because they know not how to aske any thing as they ought , doth it not make intercession for them according to God ? Are they not born of the Spirit , and after the Spirit ? Doth not the Spirit of God bear witnesse to their spirit , that are his children , that they are so ? Doth it not reveale the great things of God , and by that revelation make them know the things that are freely given them of God ? Is it not the unction from the holy one whereby they know all the things , the Anoynting , which was the Canon or Rule of the Saints from the beginning , before any Letter was , which is truth , and is no lye , which if they quench not , grieve not , let it not , but let it abide and remain in them , will teach them infallibly of all things , so that they shall not need that any man teach them , and which they abiding in the Doctrine or teaching of do not erre ( as the wicked world thinks they do ) but continue in the Son and in the Father ? Are they not led by it from under the Law , and out of the Letter up into the life , which the Letter speaks of , but it self onely giveth ? out of the works of the flesh , which in and by the light are manifest , into the fruits that it self brings forth ? Doth it not bring all things to the remembrance of such as are led by it , as all the Sons of God are , that ever Christ spake ? Doth it not guide all such into all truth , and onely into truth , and not into any falshood , delusion , or deceit ? Doth it not take of Christs and shew it unto them ? Doth God do all this first or last , more or less for all his people , and doth none of all this amount to so much as the motion of the Spirit , or divine inspiration ? Are there no spirituall men now in the world ? and is not every spiritual man a Prophet , or more then a Prophet ? for though all in the Church are not Prophets on such a score , and in so high a rank as thou reckonest on ( i.e. ) such as have witnessed a sending forth abroad on some service to others , the service of some lying yet nearer home , and in present reference onely to themselves , some like the Sons of the Prophets at Iericho and Bethel , 2 Kings 2.2 Kings 6. being yet under the Schoolmaster that leads to Christ , in their nonage , going , as it were , to schoole ( not at Athens , nor yet at Oxford , nor Cambridge , where the Schools are not like that of theirs , neither is the waiting in order to the Ministry like that of the Sons of the Prophets at Iericho , but rather like that of those , to whom it was said , tarry at Iericho till your beards be growne ; which injunction many of our Iunior Academicall Students do not keep neither , for howbeit , Barbá non facit Philosoph●m nec cucullus Monachum , much lesse do either of these make Ministrum Christi , yet severall of them , if a good Living can be had before , do not abide so long , as till they be Masters of either beard or hood , but are ready to run out with the shells on their heads , and to hasten into their humane work of Prophesie before that time ) But at Bethel ( i.e. ) the house of the Lord , waiting at the gates of wisdome it self , and watching daily at the posts of her house , taking councel at the mouth of God , out of which onely cometh knowledge and understanding , learning of him in silence with all subjection to his will , as in the light it is manifest concerning themselves first in the particular , purging their own persons first from youthfull and noysom lusts , that they may go forth , if the Lord please to send them , and say go , as Vessels of honour sanctified and fitted for the Masters use , and prepared to every good work , tarrying at Ierusalem till they he indued with power from on high , till of carnall Babes in Christ , as they are at first , walking as other men , having a remainder of strife and such divisions as are seen in children , they may proceed , Men indeed skilfull in the work of righteousnesse , having their senses exercised to discern both good and evil , and commence Masters , not of Arts , but over their own hearts , and spiritual , or Prophets : which are intimated to be all one by the Apostle in the same Epistle , wherein he saith , some are yet but babes , and in a measure carnal , and all are not yet spiritual , nor Prophets , 1 Corinth . 3.1 , 2,3 . 1 Corinth . 12.29 . 1 Cor. 4.37 . yet all to covet the gift of Prophecy , as the best of Spirituall Gifts , yet inferiour in excellency to that way of love . Though then I say all be not Prophets , yet all spiritual ones are prophets , or more then Prophets ; and there are some spiritual in these dayes : Are not all that are filled with the Spirit Prophets , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inspired by the Spirit , Mic. 2.8 . Acts 6. Acts 7. as Micah , Stephen , and the seven were ? And are not all Christians bidden to be filled with the Spirit ? and to let the word of Christ dwell richly in them , teaching , &c. Ephesians 5. Colossians 3.16 ? And what such difference is there between being led by the Spirit , and guided by the Spirit ? And is not he that is guided by it , guided infallibly , and every one that is led by it , led infallibly ? And doth not every one that walks after it walk surely and infallibly , and he that is enlightned by it enlightned infallibly ? And he that speaks , sees , writes , acts by it ( as all Saints should do , though fallible in themselves ) do all this infallibly ? And is not he that is moved by it , whether he obey its motions yea or no , moved infallibly into that which is assuredly the Truth and no Lie ? yet I.O. jeers at all pretence to any infallible guidance by the Spirit of God in these dayes , as fancy , delusion , far aricisme , &c , and at the Spirit of God it self , which the Qua : own , as their truest teacher Ironically under that term of the infallible Doctor : and T.D. makes it matter of hainous crime in the Qua : to talk of Infallibility in Christs Ministry now , saying p. 58. Pamp. thus , And as to the Question of the Infallibility of their Ministry , Three Iurates of Sandwich will testifie that they did affirme their Ministry to be infallible : as if it were matter of amazement to him , that men should mention such a matter as infallible guidance of Christs Ministry , by his own infallible Spirit in these dayes : As if he gave it for granted to us ( who take him at his word , for it is a truth ) that their own Ministry is but fallible , their guidance therein by no more then their own fallible Spirits , and may be utterly destitute of the Spirit of God , which is infallible , ( for no fallible Spirit hath God that I know of . ) No marvell therefore to me that T.D. so readily grants ( as himself sayes he does ) p. 35. of his 1. Pamph. That none of his people can set to their seal , that his Ministry hath brought them to a perfect man , &c. For I know not how it should if it be a fallible one , as he confesses 't is , while he denies any Ministry now to be infallible , and affirmes perfection itself too , but so far as to be made free from sin , to be not onely unattainable in this life , but also to be no lesse then a doctrine of Devils for any to preach it . See p. 47.1 Pamph. But whereas he sayes p. 35. The Ministry was not intended for that end , i.e. to bring to a perfect man , or to perfect men in this life , where they deny perfection attainable . Rep. I reply , that 's false , and expresly contradictory to Eph. 4.11 , 12 , 13. where its said , the Gospel Ministry ( which obtains its end in this life , or else is not perfect according to I.O. and ceases in that to come ) is given for that end , viz. for the perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministry , for the edifying of the Body of Christ : How long ? till we all come in the unity of the Faith , and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. And as for T.Ds. asserting the infallibility of the Spirit to be an Idiom , a property of the Spirit , as incommunicable to the Saints that partake of the spirit , as Omnisciency , which agreed not to Christ as man , or Omnipotency is p. 32.33 . 1 Pamph. Rep. I say that 's meer flim-flam , as to the point in hand , for we assert the Saints and Ministers of Christ no farther infallible , then they follow the leading of the spirit , which is infallible , out of which they are not in their Ministry , and so far as following that , which is given to be all mens guide , men and Ministers ( whom we confess to be all fallible in themselves , as abstract from that , and not only liable to erre , but erring actually as they leave off to be led by that , and lean to their own understandings ) are all ( so far I say ) infallible , and infallibly guided ; for as God hath no fallible spirit , so his infallible spirit hath no fallible guidance , nor leads any fallibly at all , but all infallibly , who are led by it into all truth , so as in all those things it teaches , and are needful for them to know , to make them , otherwise fallible and ignorant thereof in themselves , not only infallible , but ( as to all thoe things I say ) Omniscient , as himself is Omniscient in all things absolutely without exception . Neither are Omnisciency and Omnipotency themselves , as to all those things that are to be known and done by such , so altogether incommunicable to spiritual men as our Academical Animals imagine they are ; for though God , Christ , and the Spirit only know and can do all things absolutely , yet , through God , Christ , and the Spirit , teaching , leading , guiding , revealing , enabling , all things , i.e. all things that are truly good , fit , suitable , comfortable , profitable for such , are both infallibly to be known , and possible to be done by the Ministers of God in their respective services and seasons ; whereupon the Wisdome of God hath spoken thus of the Spirit , as in reference to the Saints that learn of him , receive and are led by him , he shall lead you into all truth , bring all things to your remembrance , whatever I have said , ye have an Unction little children , and ye know all things , and not only of the Spirit it self , that it searcheth all things , even the deep things of God ; but of the spiritual man also , to whom the Spirit reveals them , that he discerneth all things , when the animal man nor doth nor can perceive the things of the Spirit ; and that the spiritual men had the mind of Christ , Ioh. 14.26 . Ioh. 16.13 . 1 Ioh. 2.20.27 . 1 Cor. 2.9.15.16 . and not only so , but saith Paul , who had no sufficiency of himself to any thing , I can do all things thorough Christ that strengtheneth me , Phil. 3.13 . ●anta ischus and Col. 1.11 . of the Saints . enpase dunamei dunamumensi strengthened with all might , i.e. Omnipotency . Whereas therefore T.D. prates , as his fellow preachers do of the other incommunicables , of these things , I say 't is Parret-like , of he knows not what himself ; for as in such wise and measure as Saints are partakers of his holiness , purity , perfection , mercy , &c. they are holy as he is holy , pure as he is pure , merciful as he is merciful , perfect as he is perfect , though not so absolutely and infinitely pure , holy , meriful , and perfect , as he is , so , so far , and in such a measure , as they are led by his spirit , and indued with his power from on high , they are , and in the Scripture are said to be , not only infallibly assured of things , which is Tantamount to infallible , Luke 1.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. Act. 1.3 . and to have plerophorian full assurance ; but also Omniscient , Omnipotent , panta anakcinontes , eidontes , iscuontes , &c. And whereas T. D. sayes , p. 33. the Apostles themselves did not partake of that Divine property of infallibility , giving also this reasonless reason for it ; viz. for then they would have been infallible at all times , and in all things , which they were not ; as appears by the instance of Peter , Gal. 2.11 . Rep. In this as he contradicts the Scripture ; so I. O. himself serves us so far as to contradict him to our hands , for howbeit he denies any participation of infallibility to us , or any Ministers in these dayes , and also to the very immediate Transcribers of the Scriptures , saying , p. 167. we say , not they were all or any of them Anamartetoi , infallible , yet he denies it not to the first Writers , p. 60. And as for his proof , that if they were infallible at all , then they would have been so at all times , and in all things . That is as pedling a proof , as he would count it , if I should go to prove that David was not at al partaker of the property of holiness , because he was not holy , but wicked at that time , and in that thing wherein he was desil'd in the matter of Vriah , which T. D. would judge as silly an argument , as I judge T. Ds. assertion silly , who sayes that David was not i ● a condemned but in a justified estate ; alias , accounted just in the sight of God at that time , when he was under the guilt of adultery and murder , which a wise man need not be taught to see the folly and fowlness of . Thus then I. O. and T. D. do unminister themselves at least , by denying any to be Theopneustoi , infallibly guided by the infallible spirit in these dayes , both of whom I may truly bespeak thus : Say ye that Gods inspir'd ones are all gone ? Then ye of Gods inspired ones are none . And who that 's wise will mind I. O. much in what he saith about things of God , who cannot pretend so far as to say he is , but rather yeilds to the contrary , viz. that he is not mov'd , acted , carried forth , nor guided in what he does speak , write , minister , by the infallible direction of the infallible Spirit of God , but by the fallible guidance of his own and other mens fallible spirits , opinions , conjectures , thoughts , & c ? Who but - f●ols will take such a fallible guide as I. O. is fain to confess he is , while he denies any guided by the infallible guidance of Gods Spirit in this age ? Yea , doth he not utterly unminister himself and all his fellows , while he supposes none now to be Theopneustoi , moved and inspired by the spirit in their ministerial functions , nor to speak as the Spirit only gives utterance , and as they receive the word immediately out of the mouth of God , and while he can say no farther of himself and them , but only that they minister out of that furtive furniture , which in their fleshly minds they filch from the Letter , which , out of which , and from their fallible expositions of which , they minister , and of which they are Ministers , and not of the Spirit , as the Apostles and Prophets were , which gives the life ? And is not he an ill bird that bewrayes his own nest , an ill son that discovers his own , and his fellows , and his fore-fathers nakednesses so far , as to print it out as obvious to all , that the infallible guidance of the infallible Spirit is not continued with them , nor to be found in these dayes directing any otherwise then without , by an outward letter , which is fallible and lyable to be falsified at fallible mens pleasure and fancy , and to deny all inward pure Revelation , and immediate inspiration as Enthusiasm , and to say that there 's no means of doing and determining any thing about the matters of God , or Doctrine of Christ now , but the letter or writing , T. 1. C. 1. S. 16. and yet in the self-same Section , to the contradicting of himself , to say , that that Doctrine , and these things of God and Christ , are things of pure divine revelation , the knowledge whereof depends upon no such fallible thing , as all outward writing is now , by his own confession , but wholly , solely on their Revelation from God ? And what difference is there I.O. between such a one as is pheromenos upo tou pneumatos , and one ag●menos , or to whom the Spirit of the Lord is odegos , or egoumenos ? are not all these so neer kin , that he who is agomenos , is pheromenos ? Is not he who is led , guided , acted by the Spirit , moved and carried forth by the Spirit ? And are not all Saints led by it ? And what difference between one that speaks as moved by the Spirit , or as the Spirit gives utterance , and one that hath it given him by the Spirit what to speak , so that he need not premeditate what to say ? And have not all the Saints and Disciples of Christ a share and part in that promise of having it given them what to speak at the same houre when they are call'd before Rulers and Governours for Christs sake , Mat. 10.18 , 19 , 20. and what between one that is divinely inspired to speak , and one in whom the Spirit of the Father speaketh ? Is it not intended of all Gods children and Christs Disciples , in the case aforesaid , as well as of some , when it s said , It is not you that speak , but the Spirit of the Father , which speaketh in you ? And is it not said of all that Prophesie in the Church of God , as all are to covet to do , and are in capability to come to do , and may do one by one , as they grow in the Spirit , and have any thing revealed to them as they sit before the Lord , in which ca●e they are to give way to each other , that the unbelievers and unlearn'd ones in the mysteries and language of the Spirit ( and such are ye that surseiting with your inferiour literature , out of the Light and Spirit in which holy men wrote it , ly looking in the letter of the Scriptures , which ye know not , as the old Scribes did not . Mat. 22.29 . but wrest to your own ruine ( O insipidi sapientes , obtus ▪ Acuti Academici , quae supra vos nihit ad vos ) in the account of Christ , Paul and Peter , as unlearned as Christ himself was with some , and as very Babler as Paul was at Athens , as unlearned as Peter was counted by the chief Priests & Scribes when he and Iohn stood before them , Acts 4.13 . 2 Pet. 3.16 . ) being convinced and judged of them all , and having the secrets of their hearts manifested , shall be forced to their own shame to fall down , and report at last that God is in them of a truth ? 1 Cor. 14.23 , 24 , 25. And what difference is there , that can help thy cause , between pneumaticos and Theopneustos , a spiritual man , and one by the Spirit inspired , or a Prophet ? Doth not the difference that is serve us against thee , whilst it s no other then thus , that of the two , the spiritual man is the greater ? for if every Prophet is not a spiritual man , yet all spiritual men are Prophets , or more then Prophets : And that there are spiritual men in these dayes , thou wilt prove thy self to be ( what thou art ) but a meer animal , and fleshly man in denying ; for as there are millions , even many more then a good many spiritual men , in Title , so assuredly ( as few as they are ) there are a good many so in truth , and so many as are so , are more then Prophets or inspired ones , that are but barely mov'd to speak or act by the Spirit ; for all holy men of God spake and wrote of old , and speak and write now , as they are acted or moved of the holy Spirit ; but all that speak as the Spirit of God may move , act , and give them utterance , are not holy men of God , for Prophesie is but a gift that wicked men ( though seldome ) yet sometimes may have , who never come into that more excellent and spiritual way , which is to last when all Prophesie is ceased , of living in love , and other fruits of the Spirit , witness Balaam the Prophet , that lov'd the wages of unrighteousness , and taught Balaak King of Moab to cast a stumbling block before Israel , and to eat things sacrificed to Idols , and to commit fornication , whose way you follow , who neither live the life , nor will ( unless ye repent for all your hopes so to do ) die the death of the righteous , and that you will see when you fall into his Trance with your eyes open , as you will at last , so as to see him , even that Star of Iacob , as he did afar off , not nigh , but with a gulf betwixt , and Lazarus in his bosome ; though you are yet in a T●ance of your own , with your eyes shut , and not come so far into the bare sight of Truth as Balaam was , who for all his wickedness was moved of the Lord , and overpowred by the Word of God , put into his mouth , to speak many precious Truths , and full sore against his will , which would have been at work another way for hire , and have cursed and divin'd against them for money , to bless Israel altogether , Numb . 24. Witness also Caiphas the High-Priest , who gave the Iews wicked counsel against Iesus , and yet prophesied that Iesus should dye for that Nation , and gather into one all the children of God that were scattered abroad , which not knowing well the true meaning of his own words , he spake not of himself ( as ye do of your selves , not understanding well what you say , uttering in words many eminent truths out of the Prophets , and of the Prophets , which not knowing the Prophets voices , ye fulfill to your own ruine ) but by way of Prophesie , as the Spirit made use of his mouth to utter it , Iohn 11.47 . 51 , 52. And was not Saul also among the Prophets ? so that evil men may be moved and inspired by the Spirit , and obey also so as to Prophesie , as they are moved , led , or acted by the Spirit , who never obey the Spirits motions of them to better and greater matters , that spiritual men obey him in ; yea fleshly selfish men may be moved and made of the Lord ( which is more then ye yet are ) Prophets of True things ; but what holy and spiritual man is not a Prophet , or not inspired , or not truly moved of the Lord , or ( however fallible in himself , as other men ) is not anamartetos , or infallible , as led by the Spirit ? wherefore then makest thou this matter Theopneustian , or divine inspiration , or moving of the Spirit such a singular thing , as peculiar onely to the dayes of old : nay verily though all men are not so far inspired and moved of the Spirit as to be made Prophets , yet if by the Term Theopneustia , thou mean bare inspiration and motion of the Spirit , and speak of that thing it selfe , and not of such or such a degree or measure of it , canst thou tell me the man or woman vpon earth , ( letting onely Infants and meer Fanaticks aside ) who are not , or have not , at some time or other , been moved by and with good motions to better things then they follow , inspired by the Holy Spirit ? Who is there ( ●aving him who walks no more after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , and so is not excepted from , but more highly accepted into this Theopneusty , or inspiration ) in all the world , of either Heathens by name , or meer nominall Christians , that are as reall Heathens as the other , who cannot truly say Video meliora pr●b●que , deterior a sequor ? And what is that in them , who have no outward Scripture , that makes them say , and gives them to see that they behold and approve of better things while they practise worse ? Is it not the same light and Spirit within , by which Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison , when once the long suffering of God waited , while the Ark was preparing ? Is it not the spirit of Truth that guides the followers of it into all truth , and strives with men , though the stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart , and cares alwayes resist and strive against it , and lusts in them against the lustings of their flesh to filth and envy , & c ? Is it not that which convinceth and reproveth the world of sin , because they believe not in Christ , and of righteousnesse and judgement , so that they know righteousnesse , and the righteousnesse and truth of the judgement of God , that who do such things as they do are worthy of death ; though yet they enter not into the narrow path of righteousness and life , nor repent to the acknowledgement of the Truth ? And though the earth , by reason of the transgression , till God create the Heaven and Earth again anew , as he did in the beginning , be without form and void , and darknesse be upon the face of the deep ; yet in order to its coming into order again by the new Creation , Doth not the Spirit of God move upon the face of the waters , where the Whore sitteth , peoples , multitudes , tongues and nations ? And doth not God say , Let there be light , and there is light shining in the da●kness● , though the darknesse comprehends it not ? And doth he not separate these clearly in mens consciences , the inner world , from each other , calling the light day , and the darknesse night ? And do not many of you men called Ministers , use to teach your unconverted people to take the advantage of the Spirits moving upon their hearts , and not to quench them , but to step in while it moves , least , like those that lay diseased at the Pool of Bethesda , waiting for the moving of the waters by the Angel , that came down ( which in the Antitype is not the letter , but the Spirit ) not waiting for the movings , or neglecting to observe and obey , and close with the Spirits motions , before the motions of sin in the flesh step in and cool and quench them , they lie unhealed , and be left unsaved for ever , and at last no more moved by the Lord and his Spirit , because he often would have led , drawn , guided , and gathered them unto himself , but only that they would not ? Will you neither believe the Qua. nor your selves neither , that there are times and opportunities wherein evil men of the world , who never are led into higher things by the Spirit , because they refuse to follow it where it strives , are moved , theopneusto , breath'd and blown upon , and inspi●ed with good motions from the Spirit , and hear the sound of it , as of the wind , though not heeding it , never come to be born nor begotten by it unto God , nor to know either whence it cometh , or whether it goeth , or the hidden life of those that are not so full of Ta●tle about Regeneration , as ye are , who are born no higher then of flesh and blood , and the will of man to your fancied faith , but born from above of the Spirit , and of God in very deed ? Doth God then more or less move all men by his Spirit , and doth he not move his own people in these dayes by his Spirit ? Doth he inspire evil ones sometimes so far ( though we find few or none of that Gang now so far in sight as they were , unless they see and say they do not ) as to make Prophets of Balaams , Sauls , and Caiphasses ? and will he now have none in his own Church of the Seed of David himself ? And doth he do greater things for them , and draw them up into his own image , a state that must stand when all Prophesie shall have an end , and will he not do that lesser and lower thing for them by his Spirit , i.e. to use several of them as his Prophets ? and if he have Prophets whom he divinely inspires , will he do any thing of moment in these last most extraordinary times , and not reveal his secrets to his servants the Prophets ? And will he reveal his mind to his Prophets , as he did to Amos and others , and will not they go forth and prophesie ? When the Lord hath spoken , who can but prophesie ? When he gives the word himself ( as he doth in these dayes into the mouths of Babes ) how great must be the company of those that publish it ? yet such as I.O. who of the two are better acquainted with the Liberal Arts , then the Liberal Hearts , would shut these dayes , to which the promise of Prophesie , Inspiration , Revelation , Vision , Infallible manifestation ( as to the measure of it ) is mostly made , from sharing at all in these things with the Primitive times , which had but the earnest , first fruits , sprinklings and droppings of that , which in fulness was to fall down , and be poured forth in these last Generations ; and because these Seers see not , and these Prophets prophesie not themselves ( the Sun being set upon them , and they being benighted in that massy Chaos of their own self-devis'd divinity , that they cannot divine where they are , nor infallibly what they have to do ) they say to the Lords own Seers , see not , and to his Prophets , Prophesie not , unless you will prophesie smooth things and deceits , as we do , and cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us ; and because they cannot let their word be as the word of all the Prophets , who with one voice flattered Ahab to his own ruine , but must speak what God bids them , which is never good , but evil , of an evil Generation , therefore they hate them , care not for enquiring of them , but represent them to Princes and People , as odi●us as they are able , as Fanaticks and fools , so that as 't was of old , so 't is now , the Prophet is a fool , the spiritual man is mad , and become hatred in their houses of God , and as haughty Haman did , who lookt for more cap and congee then honest Mordecai could honestly give him , incensing the powers of the earth against them , Esth. 3.18 . As a certain people scattered abroad , and dispersed among the people in all the Provinces of the Realm , whose Laws are ( as Gods are from meer mans ) divers from all people who keep not the Laws ( which yet they keep better in case of Tythes , and some other things by far , then the Nations own Lawyers , Priests , and People ) so that it cannot be for the Kings profit to suffer them ( though they are , for all they carry neither sword , nor spear , the very Chariots of England , and the horsemen thereof ) and therefore as modestly as he , desiring , if it may please the Powers that the heads of them may hang high enough for examples sake , and the rest of the Race some way or other be destroyed , and if not , banisht ( at least ) for all their womanish complainings thereof , punish'd and imprison'd , which they by their tumultuousness pull voluntarily on themselves , as such whose lyes , deceits , wickednesses , hypocrisie , are testimony enough of their non-perfection to us , quoth I. O. who rakes in what reports the rude multitude raises on them , & prints them out , & makes such ill use to himself of the ill doings of some that fall from the light ( whose miscarriages are less own'd by them that stand in it , then by any ) as to saddle the wrong horse , and among many others , as unreasonable as himself in that , for the sakes of such as turn from it , to speak , write , and act no little evil against the Truth it self : And whether I. O. who keeps such a scraping of their Divine Inspiration , in honour of the old Prophets , who are long since in their Sepulchres and Tombs , which the old Scribes garnisht , and of the Apostles , Paul , Peter , &c. to whom the latter Scribes , together with their pictures upon them , have devoted high pillars at Rome , and beautiful Temples and Colledges , &c. call'd after their names throughout Christendome , who were ( as all persecutors still are ) the Seed and Children of such as flew them , and thinks if he had been in the dayes of those his Fathers , he would not have been a partaker with them in their blood ( who yet is now helping to fill up the measure of the Chief Priests , who were ever the chief persecutors of Gods People , that wrath may come upon them at last unto the uttermost ) would not indeed have done the same things to them , had he been coataneous with them , that he hath done to their Seed and Successors , in faith , life , light , doctrine , motion , mission , and conversation , in these daies ; I for my own part know so well , that I need none to tell me ; but as for I. O's part , who yet knows neither himself nor others , nor the Ancient , nor the modern Prophets and Apostles , nor the false in these dayes from the true , nor any thing yet as he ought to know it : I wish him singly to consult with that of God in his Conscience , to which I appeal , which will give him to know it as truly as I do . So then it s not for want of Prophets , that our great Professors are so unprofiting , nor of men divinely inspired to call them to repentance , and ( if need be ) to expound the Scripture unto them according to the true mind of Christ exprest therein , which these Theopneustoi only have , and not the most excellent and expert of their Expositors , who have it not by pure Revelation from the Spirit , 1 Cor. 2.10.15 , 16. for there are true Prophets abroad , that are truly moved in what they speak and write , by the Spirit of the Lord , though I. O. saith they are not , as well as false , who are not moved of the Spirit when they say they are : there are pneumaticoi and agioi Theou anthropoi upo tou agiou pneumatos pheromenci spiritual and holy men of God carried out by the holy Spirit , as of old , as Amos and other Prophets were , who are able to manifest more of the mind of God , and open the old Scripture , and give out more of the true meaning thereof , by writing and preaching in an houre , being in the Light and Wisdome of that Spirit of God , which gave it forth , then is opened truly by the worldly-wise and spiritually-dim-sighted-Divines , in all those vast Volumes , that they vent out of their own infinite inventions , and in all the Sermons , that such Simonists from the supposed spiritual gifts they have got with their own money , and give out again by way of sale to the people for their money , throughout the year ; yea , there 's more truth told , and more of the riches of Christ , and of the hidden mysteries of the Gospel , that have ( as of old ) been kept secret again since the dayes of Apostacy from the Apostolical ministration , brought to light in this iuncture , and much more will be , in the day that 's yet but dawning , * by some one Sheep of Christ , that went astray after the hollow voice of selfish Shepherds , who served and fed themselves , under a seeming shew of serving and feeding the Flock , but is now returned to hear the Voice of the great Shepherd , and Over-seer of Souls , then by ninety and nine of tho●eforesaid hireling Shepherds , that never yet went astray from themselves , or the serving of themselves , since they began to be other mens Masters , and their own servants to this day ; there are , I say , sundry such spiritually inspired ones , not a few of which are moved and sent of the Lord , as his Messengers and Scribes , both by writing and word of mouth , to warn a wicked seed of Serpents , and Generation of Vipers , to repent , and bring forth fruits worthy of amendment of life , and to flee from the wrath that is now neer to come upon them , as on children of disobedience to the Light of God in their own consciences , who lay the Lords Axe to every stout Oak of Bashan , and tall Cedar of Lebanon , and every tree that 's lofty and lifted up , to the root of every fruitless fig-tree that hath long cumbred the ground , since the Lord hath spared it in hopes of fruit , and is yet covered with no other covering , then Adam and Eve made to themselves when they had sinned , even the broad fig-leaves of fair forms , good words , sacred shews , ample appearances , Cains Sacrifices , Esau's tears , fleshly Israels formal fastings , proud Pharises misfigured faces , hypocrites holinesses , painted pretences , as little possession as much profession , as little walking in , as much talking of Truth , Bible beautifying , letter landing , Anti-Scriptural Scripture defending discourses , without that Life of Holiness , Power of Godliness , and fruits of Righteousness it calls for : There are several , who with Habakknk , Ch. 2.1 . are got upon their watch Tower , hearkning to what God saith in them , who have found nothing to answer when the Lord hath risen up to visit them , and when they have been reproved by him , Iob 31. but have sat speechle sand ashamed in silence before him , bearing his indignation , because they have sinned against him , and have had their filth purg'd away by the Spirit of Iudgement and burning , and felt woe within themselves , as men undone , of unclean lips , and dwelling among people of unclean lips , at the sight of the King the Lord of Hosts , whose iniquity hath been taken away , and their sin purged , by the touching of their lips with a live coal from the Altar , to whom as they have waited for it , the Vision hath come at the time appointed , and hath not tarried , who having tasted of the cup of trembling within themselves , Hab. 3. and known the terrour of the Lord ( as all the Prophets and true Apostles did before they were sent of the Lords Errand to perswade others , 2 Cor. 5. ) and having seen the Son of man coming in his Kingdome in righteousness to judge the world , and all the people with equity , have since been sent among such as hate them , that reprove in the gates , and make men offenders for a word from the Lord , to sound an Alarum , to cry aloud and not spare , but lift up their voice as a Trumpet , telling the people that seem to delight in approaching to God , and seek him daily , asking of him the Ordinances of Iustice , and not for saking the outward Ordinance of their God , but are frequent in fasting and afflicting their Souls , and hanging down their heads like a bull-rush for a day , and calling out , Lord give us light , for we are in the dark , direct us in thy truth , lead and guide us in right paths , and such like , as if they did delight to know Gods wayes , as a Nation that did righteousness , telling such , I say , that they may fast long enough , and yet God take no knowledge of it , and find no pleasure in their fasts , so long as in and after their fasts they find their own pleasure , and live in strife and debate , and sue Christs sheep at the Law for Tythes , and not only tear off the Fleece from their backs , but flea their very skins and flesh from their bones , and smite with the fist of wickedness , and that this is not at all to fast to the Lord , nor the way to have their voice to be heard on high , while their hands are full of blood , and their singers defiled with blood , and their lips speak lies , and their tongues mutter perversenesse , proudly , contemptuously , and disdainfully against the righteous , and they hatch Cockatrice Eggs , and weave the Spiders web , and make such Laws as intangle the innocent , which venemous creatures can crawl over and escape out of : That the Fast which God hath chosen is to loose the bands of wickedness , to let the oppressed Israel , or just Seed of God go Free from the house of Bondage , into which that spirit of Pharoah hath brought them , and to undo the heavy burden , and break every yoke within and without , &c. which doing , their light shall break forth as the morning , and their health shall spring forth speedily , and they shall call , and the Lord will answer , and say , Here am I when they cry , and he will guide them himself continually by his light from himself in their own hearts , and their light shall rise out of obscurity , and their darkness be as the noon-day ; otherwise , if they leave the plain paths of uprightness to walk in the wayes of darkness , and come not to the light that shines in their consciences , sciences , and the Law of God which is not far off , but nigh in their hearts , that they may know and do it , but hate and abhor it , and persecute the Ministers and children of it , and make to themselves crooked paths , whatsoever walketh therein shall not know peace ; yea , Iudgement shall be far from them ; and Iustice never overtake them , and they shall wait for light , but behold obscurity , and for brightness , but shall walk in darkness , and groap for the wall like the blind , as if they had no eyes , and stumble at noon-day as in the night , a●d be in desolate places as dead men , and roar like Bears , and mourn sore like Drues , and look for Salvation , but none shal come , because their transgressions are multiplied before the Lord , and their own sins testifie against them , and their transgressions are still with them , and as for their iniquities by the light within they know them , transgressing and lying against the Lord , and departing away from God , while they pretend to draw nigh unto him , speaking still oppression and revolt , conceiving and uttering from their heart words of falshood , turning Iudgement away backward , and causing Iustice to stand afar off , causing truth to fail in their streets , and shutting out of Equity that it cannot enter , making a prey of him that departeth from iniquity , and mocking the Lord , and making him believe ( as far as they can with their flattering words , and sained turnings unto him ) that they love his truth , his light , and his life , yet in truth saying in their hearts to God , depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes : There are such who blow the Trumpet , as of old the Prophets did to the same tune , and the like to this that is above , whose Trumpet gives as certain a sound as theirs did also , and not such an uncertain fallible one as that of the Priests : And these Theopneustoi , or divinely inspired persons , in their writings , speakings , call for attendance , reception , and submission , not with that Supreme Authority ( I confess ) which I. O. as falsly as foolishly both supposes and saves , T. 1. C : 3. S. 8. Antient divinely inspired Scripture calls for , which is , quoth he , not only in comparison with , but also in opposition unto all other wayes of coming to the knowledge of God , his Mind and W●ll , &c. For by his leave , or besides it either , the Light and infallible Spirit it came forth from , may not only well compare with its fallible and falsified self , as people now have it transcribed , translated , twisted and twined which way any unrighteous writers , either of it , or on it , any men-pleasing Praters , Tythe-taking Talkers , or time-serving Turn-coats are pleas'd to take it , and turn it , and wrest it to their own present ends and future ruine ; but al●o may well , and doe challenge attendance to themselves with far more supream and uncontroulable authority then it can , yea , as the s●●e and only meanes of coming to the knowledge of God , his Mind and Will , whom and which all the Scribes and Scripture-searchers in the world nor have , nor can know , without the light and Spirit , any more then the old ones did , Ioh. 5. Matth. 22. Or then anyone can see the outward Sun by any light , but that which shines from itself , Matth. 11.27 . 1 Cor. 2.10 , 11 , 16. And so in opposition to all outward Scripture it self , as that which may define God , and declare of him and of his mind and will , and yet gives not the knowledge of either , the knowledge of whose things ( if we believe I. O. T. 1. c. 1. s. 16 ; ) depends wholly and solely on his own pure divine revelation thereof by himself ; which revelation is so far exprest indeed in the Scripture ; as that there it is written of , but is expresly made onely in the heart , where it pleases the Son to reveal the Father , and the Father to reveal the Son in men , ( Gal. 1.15 , 16. Eph. 1. Col. 1.23 . ) I say then not with that Supream Authority , which is peculiar onely to the Light , Spirit , and Word within , ( though ignorantly attributed , yea and appropriated too by I , O. to the outward writing ) yet with the same uncontroulable Authority as the letter doth , they call for attendance even from their Theopneustia , or divine inspiration , which To Theion , or Power of God that accompanieth them in their ministration is enough to convict I. O. and all the Wolves of these times , that bark and howl against the Light , and mis-judg● the many messages that come to them from the Lord , as rejecters of such as God sends and justifiers of them who flew such of old as spake to them in the name of the Lord. Nevertheless as I. O. saith too truly , T. 1. c. 3. s. 9. It alwayes so fell out , that scarce any Prophet , that spake in the name of God , had any approbation from the Church , in whose dayes be spake : so it falls out now to the true Prophets , among all the false Churches of these latter dayes , from whom they find lesse Approbation , and the same Reprobation , as the former did from those evill Generations wherein they spake , Ier. 47.3 . Matth. 5.12 . 21.33 . to 38. 23.29 . Luke 17.25 , 26 , 27 , 28. Iohn 9.29 . Acts 7.52 . 24.5 . And this comes to passe by reason of the same innumerable prejudices that attend these their givings out of truth , either in speech or writing , as did the other , whose writings are not freed ( as I. O. fancies ) from the prejudices that at first attended them ; but attended with more then at the first writing thereof , thorough the infinite alterations , mis-transcriptions , mis-translations , mis-constructions , and mistakes of all sorts they have since been liable to , by the fallibility , and infinite variety of Scribes , thorough whose hands they have passed : Which said innumerable prejudices that now attend the modern Prophets , as did the first , arise from the same Root with those that attended them in their respective Ages . ( viz. ) 1. Partly the supposed interests of them that write and speak by way of Prophecy , or immediate motion . 2. Partly the personall inf●●mities , homely appearances , stemmering lips , uneloquent , rude , crude , indigested , unsound , non-sensicall sound of words ( as they seem to ( unintelligently understanding ) I. O. Ep. ad lectorem Ex. 3. s. 17. ) and formes of speech , which the Babes vf Christ seem to him to babble in , when they drop their doctrine as the dew , at the Command of God , to the Drunkards of Ephraim , not all as once , but as it were gutta●im , Precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little and there a little , Ezek. 21.2 . Amos 7.16 . Isai. 28.9 , 10 , 11 , 13.2 . Partly the mean out-side of most of these inwardly glorious sons and daughters of the King , Psal. 45.13 . whose cloathing , ad extra , is not ( as their own within , and the worlds without , and its Ministers often is ) of wrought gold , nor yet is it so much of Plush Jippoes & Hose behang'd before , & at knees with Rings or Ribbons , and Aprons of Points , and costly ( if not golden ) Buttons , and such like Garments gay and gorgeous attire ; neither is it so much of that fine linnen their ( Bishop-like ) Boot-t●ps and double Cuffs are cut out of , as of that , which is the Righteousness of the Saints : by reason of which these as internally golden , as externally earthen vessels , that bear Gods Name , and bring his heavenly Treasure , are ill treated , turned out , and trampled on by both themselves and the people of those guilded high super-celestial , earthly minded , empty Carks , that ever sound the loudest among their shallow waters , which make such a noise , together with them , that the still small voice , wherein God is , can come at no audience , 1 King. 19.12 , 13. Ecclus. 9.14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. These not bearing such a broad bulk as the other , nor bringing so much of that all sorts of externall excellencie and ornament as the other doe , which commends their persons ( though never the more to God , nor good men , yet ) to men that have not Christs mind , but being many of them ( as Christ was ) of low , outward birth and education , and , till he was sent to preach , a Carpenter by occupation , Mark 6.3 . Amos's , that by the Priests good will should never come so near the Kings Chappels , and Princes Courts , as of late some have been admitted to do , by such Rulers as will never repent of the admittance of them into their presence , if they repent from what wayes soever the light within them manifests to be evill , as they are advised to do by such of the Lights Children as the Lord at any time sends unto them , Amos 7.10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Aquila's and Priscilla's Phebe's , Prophecyers by the Spirit of both Sexer , Sons and Daughters , Servants and Handmaids ; as to the lower sort of literature unlearned Iames's , Peter's , Iohn's , few of the Priesthoods function , as Ieremie and Ezekiel once were ( for as many Priests as were obedient to the faith at first , I find few or none of them that came forth to be Prophets ) and few Lawyers , or Learned ones of any sort , unless in some handicraft employments , one able Paul well skill'd in the Law , brought up at the feet of Gamaliel , an indifferent honest Doctor at the Law , very dark and doubting , yet more moderate then his fellows , Acts 5.34 , 38 , 39. 22.3 . which Paul was a kind of Pursievant to the chief Priests , till he became a Preacher of what he ignorantly persecuted before , Acts 9.1 , 2 , &c. and then turned Tentmaker for his living , Acts 38.3 . Likewise Zenas another Lawyer ; at least a Disciple : And Luke an honest Physitian that wrote some of the Acts of Christ , and of some of the Apostles ( of Paul especially , whom he travelled much with ) one Ap●●●os eloquent and mighty in the Scriptures , Acts 18.24 . Col. 4.14 . Tit. 2.12 . One Mathew an Officer in the Custome-hense , and the rest , for the most part , of the inferiour sort , as they are at this day , few or no Rulers of the Pharisees ; some rich , wise , m●ghty , noble , not many , the rest mostly Tradesm●n , some such as I. O. speaks of in a place fore-cited , Ba●bers , Porters , perhaps some Alehouse-keepers ( why not ? the Calling being as honest in it self as that of Ga●us the Churches Host , or any other Inne-keeper , though often much abused , as what Trade is not when evill men manage it ? ) Carpenters , Shoemakers , * Taylors , Tentmakers , Tributegarberers , but no Tithmongers that I yet know of , Shop-keepers ( as Lydia an honest Purple-seller that lived at Philippi , and kept shop or market at Thia●y●a ) Shepherds , Heardsmen , Husbandmen , Farmers , Fishermen , out of all or most of which sorts Christ makes some Fishers of men in these dayes , while the Popish Parish Priests , and other flaunting unclean spirited spirituall men , fishall their dayes and get nothing but unclean croking Frogs like themselves , Rev. 16.13 , 14. Howbeit it is but few that receive the true Faith , because such as broach it bring little or nothing with it of that outward pomp that people look for at the Kingd●mes coming : And so Sinihil attuleris ibis Homere F●ras . 4. Partly both Priest● and Peoples i●c●gitancy , ●scitancy & non observation of it , that the Kingdome comes , not with so much outward observa●ion and sumptu●us shows as they seek after , and as the Kingdomes of this world come with , but with all its glory ( which the Saints see in Christ and the Spouse , when the world doth nor , Psal. 45.13 . Iohn 1. ) lyes more inward then men are ware of ( viz. ) in righteousness , peace with God , and joy in the holy Spirit , a little thing , a grain of Mustard-seed at first , though to be at last the greatest among the Hearbs ; and so they d●spise the day of small things , though it tend to the greatest good and truest glory . They consider not ( no not when they read the very writing which is their own Rule ( as the Iews did not when Moses was read , the vail being over his face and their hearts ) what the Scripture itself saith , but in their l●ftiness and lordly minds , which fly up above the Light , overlook the lowly mind of Christ in the very Scriptures they to themselves seem to be so much skilled in , they heed it not , when in it God declares , that out of the mouth of Babes he will perfect his own p●ais● , Psal. 8.2 . Matth. 21.16 . that 't is not by such a fierce people as are for five and faggot ( as Papists are ) and carnall weapons , Prisons and other punishments ( as I. O. is ) to defend Truth by ; nor by a people of a deeper speech then can well be understood by plain honest hearts ( as the Scribes and Disputers of this world ) but by stammering lips , and another tongue then that they think of , in which all are Riddles and Parables to them , he will speak to people , and especially to such as hearing will not hear , and seeing will not see , when things are plain , that hearing they may not hear , yea , that such may go and fall backward , and be broken , and snared , and taken , Isai. 28.9 . to 14. Isai. 33.18 , 19. 1 Cor. 14.21 . and that it is that foolishnesse of preaching ( as it is called by such as perish ) that God is pleased to save such by as will b●lieve ; that he will destroy the wisdome of the wise , and bring to nought the understanding of the prudent ; and turn wise men backward , and make their knowledge foolish , and frustrate the tokens of the Lyars , and lead Councellours away spoiled , and make the Iudges fools , and remove away the speech of the trusty , and take away the understanding of the aged , and take away the heart of the chief of the earth , and cause them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way , and make them greap without light , and stagger like a drunken man , and befool the Princes of Zoan , and ca●●● the counsel of the wise Councellors of Pharoah to become bruitish , and dec●ive the Princes of Noph that have seduced and been the stay of the Tribes thereof , and mingle a perverse spirit among them , and cause the Sun to be covered with a cloud , and the bright lights of heaven to be dark over Aegypt , at the putting of it out , and at the breaking of its yoke , and set darkness upon her Land , and search out the hidden things of Esau , and take away understanding from his Mount , and discover deep things of darkness , and bring out to light the shadow of death , Job 12. Isa. 19. Isa. 29. Isa. 44. Ezek. 30.18 . 22.7 . 8. Obad. 6. &c. And that he will do all this to a people that have provoked him to anger with their vanities , by a foolish Nation , and weary them out by such as are no people in their eyes , Deut. 32.21 . And choose the foolish , and b●se , and weak things , that Are no● , ●o confound and bring to nothing the things that Are , 1 Cor. 1.20 , 27.28 . That the great Mountain of Babel shall become a Plain before Zerubbabel , i , e. Such as are from Babel , as the Word is , and this not by might nor power of man , but by my Spirit , saith the Lord , Zach. 4.6.7 . That the excellency of the work may be of him , and not of man , and that he will do great things for his own Land of Canaan , whereat they shall rejoyce and be glad , Joel 2.21 . yet by such instruments as foolish Shepherds , such silly tools as shall make subtle Sanballets , and tale-bearing Tobyasses , and the rest of the scoffers of the same seed of Ammon flout ●t them at first as feeble , and say , What will these feeble folk do ? will they revive the stones out of the rubbish , and build and fortifie in a day ? Behold , if a Fox go upon their wall , will he not break it down ? Nehem. 4.1.2.3.4 . &c. Nehem. 6.6.7.16 . &c. and despise the day of God , as a day of small things , Zach. 4.10 . and yet be amaz'd , terrified , cast down in themselves , and made to confess it to be of God at the last ; and that he will begin to save , not so much by the heads , as by the tail of the people , and g●●upwards ( not that Prophet that teacheth lyes , which is the tail that would be the head , and is to be totally cut off , Isa. 9. but ) the lower . and most despised fort of people , to whom he will shew his Salvation , and by them to the Antient and the Honourable , and instruct Apollos by Aquila and Priscila in the way of God more perfectly , and make the Daughters of Philip to Prophesie , when scarce a Prophetess to be found among the Princesses of the earth , and Phabe , and other Sisters , Ministers in his Church , and Labourers with Paul , and fellow-helpers to the Gospel , Rom. 16.1 . 1 Phil. 4.3 . when he leaves Corvos Prophetas & Prophetissas picas , many unsavoury gaping Preachers , and proud women pratlers of Christ and Faith , &c. ever teaching and learning , but never coming to the knowledge of the Truth ; and that he will savē the Tents of Juda first , the plain plow-men and keepers in their own Tents , and Country cottages , that the glory of the cieled houses of David , and the Inhabitants of Jerusalem , Kings , Governours , great ones , fine rich Citizens , mighty Merchants , mincing Ladies , Renowned University Schollars , Scribes , Pastors , and such like , may no more magnifie themselves against Iuda , but stoop to take Truth from stammering lips , or be lest ignorant thereof forever ; and this is one of Gods works and strange Acts , which he is working in these dayes , whereat the wise despisers wonder , yet perish , because in no wise believing it , though it be declared unto them , Zach. 12.7 . 1 Hab. 1.5 . Act. 13.40.41 Isa. 28.21.22 . 5. The mighty multitude of false Prophets , of all shapes , seducing and gain saying the truth , which are at least four hundred and fifty of one sort , and four hundred of another , to one of the Lords Elijabs , 1 Kings 18. ver . 19. For as thou sayest I. O. T. 1. C. 3. S. 10. in the latter dayes of that Iewish Church , that poople were most emīnently perplexed with false Prophets , both as to their number and subtilty ; so , and much more is it now in these latter dayes of the ( out-side ) Christian Churches , that hold the outer Court , yet tread down the holy City , and of the old World also , wherein the old Serpent called the Devil and Satan , seeing himself cast out of heaven , where he held war as long as he could with Michael and his Angels , and is now to have no more place there , is come down to the Inhabiters of the earth , unto which he is cast in great wrath , knowing that he hath but a short time , and so bestirs himself more then ever before , and like a mad . Bull that hath received a fatal blow in the forehead , runs bellowing about , and tears and rends what he is able , and foams against the Man-child , the holy Seed of God , and Sheep of Christ , at his going forth , and being by permission more strongly then ever re-entred into the herd●of Swine , drives them down headlong so violently , that there is no saving of them , to their own everlasting Perdition ; to which purpose he musters up all manner of his Ministers , that from him ( as to their Ministerial capacities , both live , and move , and have their being ) Gog and Magags Ministry , and all the Magicians behind , all these together running on with open mouth to devoure the Israel of God and i●compass the Camp of the Saints , and the beloved City , till fire come down from God out of heaven and devoure them , Isa. 31. yea , of a truth it it so now , as was foretold 2 Esdras 13. Chap. thoroughout , that it should be in the latter dayes , when the most High begins to visit and deliver his Saints , and come in them , to the astonishment of many , and as a thief and a snare upon all that dwell upon the earth ( viz. ) that though all the false Prophets , and their several peoples , should be Aurium tenus , up to the ears in strife , one sort of Seers undertaking to fight against another one City , one Realm , one sort of their misguided people against another , one Troop of these mad Riders , and their blind horses , Zach. 4. against another , in their uncertain fallible minds , opinions , conjectures , thoughts , Andabatarum more , * justling together in the dark , at the Revelation of the Son of God , and his espoused Sion , and at the hearing of his uncouth voice , they every one in their own land leave the battel they have one against another , and as of old , the Ammonites , M●●ites , and they of Mount Seir , waging war against that typical people of God , the outward fleshly Israel ; so these that hate and ban one another , even to the very death , make one head together against that spiritual Israel , that is of a clean heart ; and all the false Prophets , both an●i●● and upstart , and all the subtil f●xes ( natura , non nomine ) joyn both little and great , old and young together , to spoil the Vine that hath clusters of tender grapes , and if it were possible to root it out , and ( under a pretence of preserving the Church , the true seed of Iacob and Israel ) to preserve it from taking root , and blossoming , and budding , and filling the face of the earth with fruit , as it must do at the last , Isa. 27.6 . and like Sampsons Foxes , tail to tail , they draw divers wayes ; lo●here , sayes one , lothere , sayes another ; some sounding it out for their Fathers traditions ; some summoning to the Scriptures , and the g●wdy glosses they put upon it ( who yet , if they could once come to see it , live by tradition , and teach G●ds fear afters mans Precepts , as well as the rest ) all to their own fanci●s , dreams , opinions , and imaginations of one kind or other , and all these fire-brands fencing to one end , and as friendly ( as Herod and Pilate , at odds against each other , yet at one against Christ ) attempting to dis-inthrone the light of Christ in the Con●cience , from its due Authority , and from sitting on the Throne in its proper place . * Some resisting the Truth by flat opposition ; so all the many sorts of those guilded cups the Parish Priests do , that yet hold forth all or any R●mish Relicks or measure of that old Whores trash ; which wooden Tops are always turning round with the times , as that lash ( viz. the losse of living if they so do not ) is made use of and exercised toward them , whose movings to and again , back and forth , from Henries Religion to Edwards , from his to Maries , from hers to Elizabeths , and so onward , and round ( as occasion is ) if the word of command be ( As ye were ) is all from the force of some externall Engine , or other , mostly , that of money ( for Qui pecunianon movetur hunc dignum specta●u Arbitramur ) not from any inward Principle or Power of the endless life ; no par , no preach , is their common Custom , so that the powerless formes they foam at each other about , would soon fall all to the earth , whence they are , and not from Truth , were it not for that Primum-movens that principale propugnaculum of Tith ; as a dead man that can stand not a jot longer , then propt up by something or other , ad extra , because Deest aliquid infus , there wants the main master wheel within . Others like those Inchanters that withstood Moses , resist the Truth too , men of corrupt minds , reprobate yet as concerning the Faith , leading● captive silly women after them , from the Faith of Gods Elect , by imitating the very Truth it self , as farre as they are able to come neer it , in their vain fleshly minds , having stole into a form of the same Doctrine , Words , and Works , without the life , which they hate and oppose in them that are in the life , preaching the same Truth and Light themselves in their airy spirits , since the conviction thereof fell upon them , for which they had very formally cast forth of their own separated Churches the Children of the Light , who withdrew from them , and so formally were none of them before , that their senseless confuse or ejection : * Like the●fore ●aid Sorcerers , to bewitch their people into an abode among them in Egypt ; where they yet are in bondage altogether , and into a non-believing of the true Messengers of God to be in anything beyond themelves , and to make them seem to be no more in the power of God then they , by striving to do all , and as farre as they are able to follow on in a form , till at last they be forc'd to confess , a finger of God doing all that by their weak arme of flesh , mans fleshly will and wisdome , which by the Saints is performed , both in and from no other Arme , then the Light , Power , Wisdome , and Life of God , dwelling in them : Of this sort are all the Prophets , that are in a fairer form of Godliness then those behind them , in dark●r and grosser for●m● , yet with them denying , and not witnessing the power thereof in their hearts and conversations , to the purging of them from pride and the other p●llutions and corruptions that are in world through lust ; which Magicians , when they see the Servants of the Lord do any thing , that is taking among their people , and which they are ashamed to di●own , then they will do so , and ( as the Wise men of Egypt set themselves to imitate Moses ) set themselves to do the like , and ●in a shew bring forth an Image of the same : By all which said severall sorts of subtill Sorcerers , who with the most cunning craftiness they have , lye in wait to deceive , the multitudes of people are deceived , and so seduced from the narrow way of truth , that among them very few ever find it , and are so eminently perplexed ( as to their discerning aright between Gods Wor● indeed , and that which is only pretended so to be , ( viz. ) the nak●d letter , that only declares what is his Word , and their own fallible , and sometimes senseless senses , and sermons , upon that letter , of all which they ay , in their common Preambles to their people , Hearken with fear and trembling to the Word of God , when oft no more then every mans own word , Ier. 23.36 . is spoken ) that though God hath given men a light and spirit within , which is me●sura ●sui & ● obl●qu● , that can most certainly determine of all spirits , and an ●ar ( but that its slopt in most ) which can as truly try words , as the mouth ●asteth meats , Iob 34.3 . 1 Ieh . 4.1 , 6. and also se●meria , infall bee tokens to enable them so to do , yet they can make no discrimination between right and wrong , faith and falshood , uprightness and errour , honesty and hypocrysie , holiness and heresie , the simplicity that ●s in Christ , and that schisme from it , into which they are already inchanted , 2 Cor. 11.3 . the light and truth , and that deceit and darkness , in which both Prophets and People dwell , through the busie battels , and confused noises , these Warriours make with their loud cryings out each against other , and all with one mouth against the Truth it self , and the tellers of it , as Deceivers , and all with one consent mis-representing them as such unto the Powers , mis-advis●●g and mis-admon●shing their respective peoples to this or the like tune , Beware and take heed of deceit , and of these deceivers the Qua. not heeding all this while , or at least not willing their people should heed how deeply they are all in the deceit already : so like the impudent Harlot , that hopes to outcry and bear down the modest Matron with a clamour of words , and by calling out Wh●re first , these foolish loud lewd Women , fearing their own filthy fornications should else be soon discovered , cry out first on that Sect of Saints , which was ever and every where so spoken against , Acts 24.14 . 28.22 . Heresie , schisme , errour , darkness , disturbance , madness , enthusiasme , fanaticisme , faction , and such like ; and though they and their flocks of Goats , and heards of Swine , live in the lust , in pride , covetousness , malice , luxury , and all wickedness , and have nothing of their own save unrighteousness to be rob'd of , and nothing to be led captive , but that which hath captivated the just , nor to be spoild of , but that which spoils them Souls and Bodies , and nought to be deceived of , but deceit and darkness it self , yet they are ever noysing it out , Deceit , Deceit ; by means of which unanimous out-cryes , and simultaneous sounds of these Heterogeneous , multaneous , multanimous false Prophets , drowning the still voice of W●sdome , which yet cryes aloud too , and uttereth her voice to these simple scorners in their streets , Pro. 1. It is not heard nor heeded ; though the Wisdome of God send them now ( as of old he did to the like Generation of evil doers ) Matth. 23.34 . Luke 11.49.50 . Prophets , and Apostles , and wise m●n , and Scribes , yet some of them they even kill , and some of them they imprison and persecute out of their Synagogues , and some they stone , dirt , and bemire , not only with their belying lips and pens , but also their merciless hands ( the dark places of the earth , Cathedrals , Monasteries , Abbeys , Academies , Colledges , being ever full of the habitations of cruelty , Ps. ) and some they sorely whip and scourge , supposing they do God service in all this , Iohn 16.2 . that the righteous blood of all the Prophets , which was shed from the foundation of the world , may come upon them , which verily is to be required both of this , and in this present evil Generation . For the Lord is now in earnest , bending Iudah for himself , and filling the bow with Ephraim , and raising up the ( Academically-unlearned ) sons of Sion , against those sons of Greek , and making them as the Sword of a mighty man in his own hand , to do vengeance on those heathenish nursing Mothers , and to punish not only all others , but more especially their Pope-like Priests and people , to bind their Kings in chains , and their Nobles with fetters of iron , to execute on them the Iudgement written in the Scripture itself they scribble about , far more then they are skill'd in it , to speak to those Drunkards with the wine of their own wisdome , with stammering lips , and another Tongue then any they can talk in , or understand , by precept upon precept , line upon line , here a little , and there a little , that they may go backward , and stumble , and fall , and be broken , and snared , and taken , and to reject those Greeks , that seek so much after mans wisdome , in the promulgation of the things of God , to whom the Cross of Christ is foolishness , and to reject those Scribes and Disputers of this world , and by that preaching , which to them is foolishness itself , to make their wisdome foolish , and to chuse out foolish , weak , base things , and persons , even Laicks , Mechanicks , Rusticks , Russet-Rabbies ( as they term them ) even Babes , Bablers , and such as Are not in their eyes , to confound and bring to naught these mighty wise and prudent ones that Are , and to draw the night and darkness over those dreaming Diviners , that they shall no more divine what things and strange acts are transacting in this time , and to cause the Sun to set upon their learned Seers , that scoffingly call to the Qua. out of their Mount Seir , Watchman , What of the night ? So that the Vision of all , both to them and their unlearned people , that live upon their lips , shall be as a book sea●ed , and to search out the hidden things of those Lord Esau's , that hunt abroad for their learning , and to supplant them by his plain honest-hearted Iacobs , that dwell and learn truth at home in their own Tents , and to cover Aegypt with a Cloud , and to mingle a perverse spirit among her Ministers , and to manifest the folly of these Iannes and Iambres , that resist the truth , men of corrupt minds , reprobate concerning the Faith , as he did theirs that withstood Moses of old ; and to leave the Princes of Zoan to become fools , and the counsel of these wise Councellors of Pharoah to become bruitish ; so that it shall be said of them , as of old , I●a . 19. Where are they ? Where are the wise men ? Let them tell now , let them know what the Lord of Hosts hath purposed upon AEgypt ( yea surely , these Princes of Zoan , are already become fools , the Princes of N●p● are deceived : They have also seduced AEgypt , even they , that Tribe , that is the stay of the Tribes thereof , and to divide in Iacob that Trip●L● Tribe of Levi , whose anger and wrath is cursed , for it hath been cruel , and as they have scattered the Israel of God , so to scatter them in his Israel , and to set these ●o●sheards of the earth to drive with each other about their own foundation , and to r●ze their own Babel to the ground , and to break themselves to pieces one against another , like a Potters Vessel● , so that in the bursting thereof , there shall not be left at last so much as a sheard fit to use to take fire from the hearth , or water withall from the pi● , and to render all the works and voluminous Tomes of these Turners of his things upside down , of no better esteem among men , then the Potters cla● , and to take all these subtil foxes in their own craftiness , both the great and the little one● , that Spoil his Vine which bath tender Grapes , and hurt the cluster , or gatherings of the Saints together , in which is the New Wine , and the Blessing , and to unho●se this Tripple-crown'd Harlot , that hath so long rode and at upon both Powers and their people , & her nursing Mothers of l●arning true Religion and piety ( in pretence ) but ( in truth ) of all ignorance , superstition , and abomination , and to call to account the whole Ct Clergy , upon which a Consumption is determined throughout the earth , and to summon both the Pope , and his Cardinals , Mount Seigniors , Iesuites , Monks , F●yers ; and also all Arch-bishops , Bishops , Arch-deacons , Deans , and their Officials ; also all Parsons , Vicars , Curates , and all Spiritual Persons whatsoever ; also all learned Linguists , Scribes , Text-men , Translators , Commentators , T●eaters , Tythe-Teachers , Talkers of Truth for their own turns , and Trad●r● out of the Scriptures , profit-seeking Prophets and Pastors , that for pay have made a prey of his people , and to plead with them for his flock , and to come down to fight for Mount Sion , and for the hill thereof , and to Roar through the mouths of his Prophets , against these many sorts of Shepherds , that are now so loud , and full of noyses and clamours , to keep their flocks from fleeing from them , crying out , Heresie , beresie , Schism , Quake●ism , Fanaticism , &c. and to scatter their people from them , and to gather his own sheep into his Fold , whom they have driven to and fro from mountain to hill , in the dark and gloomy day , and to take their prey from the midst of them , and like a Lion roaring on his prey , when a multitude of Shepherds is call'd forth against him , he will not be afraid of their ●ice , nor abase himself for the noyse of them : In a word , to stretch out his hand so strongly against them all , that those powers and people that helpe them shall fall ; and those Priests , Universities , Doctors , Schollars , and other Students there , that are holpen by the earthly powers , shall fall , and they all shall fail together , and not be able to uphold one another , but be cast , as Iezebell and her Lovers , into a bed of torments together , and into great tribulation , except they repent of their deeds : And as the espousall of the University , Priestly and Clericall Interest with that of the Common-wealths , hath ever yet obstructed the proceedings of all Parliaments and Powers in this Land of Resolved on Reformation , and prohibited their prospering in any of their undertakings , to perfect the propounded Priviledges of the people : So in way of warning to you , whether you will yet hear or forbear ; whether I live to see it , or die before it , I here assure you from the Lord , O ye the present Powers in this English Nation , the clea●ring of that mi●e and clay of the Clergies Councels to your Iron , will never hold , but the Stone cutout of the Mountain without hands will smite your Image , that stands on such a mixt , brittle bottom in the feet and toes of it , that it shall fall and become , before the Word and Spirit of the Lord , in the mouths and hearts of his people , as the chaffe of the Summer-floor , yea , as stubble before the wind , and the Angel of the Lord pursuing it . And albeit the business of rooting out all Romish Relicks yet remaining , remaines yet reeling to and fro , to and fro , in this Nation , so that no man knows which way the scales will turn , and the case be cast , by looking meerly to mens managing of matters without , in such a wavering , unstable manner do things stand , while they are under the hands of such double minded men , as are unstable in all their wayes , nothing but wavering like the waves of the Sea , driven to and fro , and tossed ; yet such as look inward , whose eyes and hearts are toward the Lord , rejoycing in his Highness , whose Excellency is in the Clouds , and hoping in his mercie , they are come within the ken and clear sight of RRRomes utter ruine , in all three of her Appearances in this Nation , which are about the tenth part of the old Roman Empire , and of the P●pedome also in its late largest Latitude , in which Nations , at the sound of the sixt Trumpet , the Tenth part of the Clergy or great City BBBabylon , the mystical Mother of Harlots and Abominations , falls fi●st , Rev. 11.13 . as an earnest of the fu●l , finall , and universall fall thereof , which comes after it , Rev. 16.19 . in the Plague of the seventh Viall . And notwithstanding all that loathness to part with her , and pittifull pining after her , and pleading for sparing her , and often uprising to uphold her in her Prelaticall , and Presbyterian Pontificalibus Paroch●a'l preferments , and excrementirious university Excellencies , and Collegian Exercises and Concerrments , that is among the Merchants that trade with her , and are made rich by the abundance of her delicacies : Yet the feet of all these petty Popelings must also slide in due time , and the things that come upon them and their Pontificals ( though seeming to them sometimes to stand still , or give back again ) make hast : and as sure as the old m●nasticall , massy Ministry and their maintenance and most foggy formes of ministration , Holy water , Latine Letanies , Ave Maria's , Misereremei's , Pater Nosters , Te Deums , Trigintals , Dirges , De Profundis , M●rtuaries , Peter-pence , and such like , were sent packing first , and after them the Protestant imitations , and English Images , of most of those Popish Latine Ch●●ts ( viz. ) D●ans and Chapters Lands , Easter-Reckonings , Offerings , Mid-Summer Dues , Christenings with Crosses , marrying with the Ring , Churchings of Child-bed Women , Bishoppings of Children , and the fees belonging thereunto , goings on Procession yearly to view the bounds of their Parishes , and reading the Epistles and Gospels at such and such Hedges , Bushes , Trees , Bowings at the Name of Iesus , Cringings before the Altar , Facings towards the East , High-Altar-Service , Rayls , costly Windows , Crucifixes , holy Vestments , Lawn Sleeves , Canonicall Coats , costly Copes , Sandals , Su●plices , Anthems , holy Sing-songs , Organ , and sundry other Popish Pipes and Pictures , Mattens , and Even-songs , Liturgies , Consecrations of Chappels , of Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , Ministers , Cathedrals , and a number more of such like Choristicall Church geer , and the Stipends thereto pertaining , which Protestant Services , saving the different Language therein administred , and some certain expurgations of some grosser Superstitions , in which the P●pish did exceed them , are now , as they once were under the Pope of Cante●buries patronage , growing back a pace into a lively , or rather deadly conformity to that of the Romish Synag●gue they were lately ●ent from , as chips of that old Block , and certain slips transplanted and set in the same soyl , where thè old body of that Oak , they were cut off from , once grew and flourished . So assuredly all that long train of P●pish Trash , and mans Tradition , used , whether in , or in order to the worship of God , in either Universities , Schools , Colledges , or Country Churches , and the respective Romish Rewards belonging to the men , whether already made , or to be made Ministers of this Traditional , Nationall Ministration that yet remains ( viz. ) Deaneries , Prebendaries , Presidemships , Masterships , Fellowships , Educations in Universities and Colleges , together with the Degrees there taken , of Doctorship , Batchellou●ship ( so farre as to the thing called Divinity , and as in order to the Ministry of Christs Gospel , and not only the great preferments and profits , but also the many fidling formalities and silly supersluities of Scarlet Gowns , with Velvet-plush , of Sattanically faced Sleeves , the long rich sa●snet Scarfes before , the silken Snap-sacks behind , and their many odd mysticall Mumblings , Kissings , Kneelings , Bowings , bare-headed Trottings to and fro , and gaddings hither and thither , about begging and granting Graces , and much more for did service of this sort , that was wont ( if not lately left off and ceased from ) to be stood upon in our nursing Mothers of naughtiness and heathernish canity . Likewise all those Countrey parish practises ( viz. ) Christening Infants , not in Fonts as before , with Gossips , but in Basons , yet not without sundry of the old festivall Customes , and plum-cake Ceremonies , ( to say nothing of the superstitious observations of the old Popishly consecrated sacred Seasons , of Christs-masse , Candle-masse , Micha●●masse , Lam-masse , &c. celebrated and sanctified with more unholiness then all the year beside , which steal in apace again among many Priests and people ) their Singings of Davids Psalmes with Doeg's spirit , by a line at a time , as the Priest or Clark reads afore them , in the ●ime and Meeter that Queen Elizabeths Musitia●s , Io● Hopkins and Tho. Sternhold , have moulded them into , which Songs of the Temples , wherein many People tell to God more lies of themselves then truth , ( While they say they are not pust in mind , nor scornfull , and they water their couch with their teares , when as they are as proud as they can look , and rejoyce to do evill , and scarce shed a tear in their lives for their sins ) must be turned into howlings , and the eatings and drinkings of gluttons and drunka●ls , and the communion of Swine at their Lords Supper , and much more such miserable old Mother-like manner of devotions and meetings together in the ancient Mass-bouses , at the t●●ling of the great Bell , or the tinkling of the Saints Bell ( as 't was commonly called ) more then at the found or true call of Christs Spirit in the conscience , who is now calling out of all such dead Devoutry●● , together with the large Popish pay of fat Parsonages , Vicaradge ; , Blebe-lands , Tyhes , Augmentations , &c. much of which for an hour or two's work in a week , is by persecution plucked from many poor folks families , that in conscience cannot contribute to the upholding and maintaining of such a mess of Merchandise , and Den of Thieves . I say all this P●pish and Priestly Bag and Baggage , must once march after that which is gone before , and be sent packing into the pitfrom whence it came , before ever this Nation come to know true peace ; yea , wrath is gone out against it from the Lord ; and those powers that piece , and patch , and dawb , and mend , and prop , and repair , and build up again , and plant , and maintain , and uphold , and help , and heal the fragments of that old Fabrick , and form of godliness , where the power is denied , which God hath a purpose to lay waste , and pluck up , and throw down , and bring to nought , and confound , though they say in the pride and sto●●ness of their hearts , the bricks are fallen down , but wee 'l build with he●●en stone , wee 'll reform , and square the materials , but keep up the same Parish Popish form : the Sickamores are cut down , but wee 'll change them into Cedars , shall find , that as they seek to plant , the Lord will pluck up , and what they build , the Lord will throw down , and mingle their enemies together in battel against them , some before , and some behind to devoure , till they wholly and throughly turn to him that smireth them , and that he himself will cut off branch and rush , head and tail , even the Antient and the Honou●ab●● , which is the head , and the Prophet that reacheth lyes , which is the Tail , 〈◊〉 d●y ; for where the Leaders of a people d● long cause them ●o erre , both themselves , and those that are led of them are destroyed , I●a . 9.9 to 17. Be wife now therefore , O ye Kings , b●inst u●● dy● Ru●ers of b●s● Nations , for they that by often reproofs are forced to ●eild to let Gods Israel go fully free to his own service , and then like P●a●●ah , are as f●●●ard●●d into refusals of it , when they are going , or into a pe●secution of them when they are gone , will undoubtedly know to their own utter over-wh●lming and destruction , that deliverance will arise some way or other to his people , that their Chariot Wheels shall be taken off , that their drivings on after them in the dark , will be but heavily and too sl●wly to ●ve●tak● or bring them back again ; and that the Lord himself , who hath placed between them the Pillar of Fire , to be a Light to the one , and a Cloud and darkness to the other , doth at this day ( as of old ) fight for Israel against the Egyptians , &c. sides with his redeemed and ransomed ones , against all whose hearts are turned against them , to grutch at the liberty once granted them to go , so as to seek to intangle , or to reduce them again into bondage : For men are now ( as God himself is ) in earnest , and not in jest● , about the matters of God and Truth ; and the Power of the Lord is with them that stand up , and are valiant for the Truth , and not for the empty shews of it only in this and t'other outward form ; and God himself is risen , and rising in the Saints , to be avenged on the flattering foes of his people , and really resolved to bear no longer , but to break the head , and wound the hairy scalp of every such a one as goeth on still in his trespasses , and every plant shall assuredly be plucked up , which the heavenly Father himself hath nor planted . Let us hear then the conclusion of this whole matter , into which , if I have deviated any thing largely , yet that business can plead its own excuse , sith it s not meer method so much as matter of profit that I mind , who know , that though the Prohhesie of smoother and sweeter things is more desirable to most , yet Omne tulit punctum qui miseuit utile Amdro . He hits the nail on the head more , that ministers bitter and rough reproof , where need is , then he qui miscet inutile dulci , who divines smooth , ngared bits , and sweet deceits ( as our Divines do ) to mens undoing ; and that he who faithfully holds forth the trouble some Truth , shall find more favour ( as with God for ever ) so with men at last , then he who feeds them with lyes , and continually flattereth them with his lips : And besides , by your difficulty to believe that God hath any true Prophets , or infallibly inspired messengers of his in these dayes , I have been drawn not aside , but directly to the proof of it for your sakes I.O.T.D. and such as are deluded by you ; to whom my love is so great , that as ye have by your denying any such Theopneustian , divine inspiration , revelation , motion , immediate mission as of old , compell'd me to go a mile with you out ( if it be Out ) of the way ; so I have gone along with you , or at least over against you , no less then Twain : And now I hasten to make an end with you altogether . Of what hath been spoken , then this is the sum , there are Prophets , and men mov'd , led and guided by Gods Infa'lible Spirit , that by it are fitted ( though ye deny it ) to open Scripture ; nor was it ever since it was a Scripture more open'd by that Infa'lible Spirit , then now it is , and is soon to be ; yet for all this , men that have no more then the outward Moses , and the Prophets , do not believe , nor repent , because they listen not to the Light within , that calls for doing to all as they would be done by , which is the Law and the Prophets , saith Christ , Matth. 7. for want of attending to which , they not only repent not at the call of their own dead Prophets dead preachings , who are yet living in their trespasses and sins , but for the most part also , not at the preachings of such as minister from the Life ( and not the dead letter only ) who are quickned and made alive again from their trespasses and sins , and so not heeding the light , here 's no repentance yet , though they be warn'd by such as are risen with Christ , and sent unto them from the dead . CHAP. II. NOw then to make a more full and final enquiry into the cause of that foresaid Grand and Imp●nit●ncy , Is it for want of that saving Light of God that is ( if heeded ) sufficient to guide all men , even to that repentance which is to Salvation , that is never to be repented of ? Nay verily , not so neither , for all men have from God and Ch●ist a light within them , ● measure of that true light ( saving I.Os. and T Ds. I. T●mbs , R. Bax. dark conceits to the contrary ) which is sufficient to bring them that follow it to Salvation , but only that it s not attended to : And this , together with that about the Letter above spoken to , which ye lay as your chief foundation , being the chief matters at first intended by me to be controverted with I.O. but that well nigh at my beginning in carnest to enter the Lists with him , T. Ds. two young Cub● : , one some while after another , coming out upon me , occasioned me to make many an extravagant vagary after them , into some other doctrinal , accountative , and narrative businesses , for the Truths sake more then my own , that people might no longer ( unless they will ) be led aside from it by his lyes , and gu●●'d with his guilded glosses and counterfeit colours , wherewith ●he ●awbs , and smooths , and sooths them up in sin and sinister su●mizes against the truth , and the tellers of it in the points abovesaid , and covers himself , and his false doctrines of Iustification , of Saints in Sin , personal Election of all but a very few , non-pu●gation from sin in this life , and sundry others , either more directly and largely ( as that of Iustification ) or more briefly , occasionally , or but interlinearily resured before , in which I.O. is as co-incident with him , as he with I.O. in the rest . I shall now betake my self to some more single ( though short ) Animadversion thereof , as it lies in difference between the Qua. who hold it out for truth , and I.O. T.D. I.T.R.B. and the owners of their books extant , in which they oppose the Qua. in print very much , if not more then in any other whatsoever ; and so I shall have done with them both at this time . And first , I shall begin with T.D. his two Do-littles , and take account of his mighty weak mannagement of his many meanings , as to that matter of the light against the Qu. of which in many things , he means much what as I.O. does , and is confused and contradictory to himself not a little about it ; yet I must needs say , not by ten-fold so much as I.O. is in his mad mang●nization of his mind in this matter ; howbeit , T.D. as to his Dispute , goes clear beside the Question , as it was stated about the Light , as he did about the Letter , and Iustification , and strikes much more upon the Anvil , then on the iron , and yet he gives us the Quest. too , at the very beginning to dispute it , as he did those two about Iustification , and the Scripture ; as may appear by what follows . The Question between the Qua. and T.D. was as he relates , p. 1. of his 1. Pamph. viz. Whether every man that cometh into the World be enlightned by Christ ? which when R , H. affirmed , T.D. ( as himself relates ) replyed thus , viz. But what Light is it you intend ? we grant that every man hath some Light , by which he discernes ( though dimly ) many sins and duties , and severall divine attributes ; but the mystery of Godliness , as it is summ'd up , 1. Tim. 3. ult . God manifested in the flesh , justified in the Spirit , &c. we deny that all men have the knowledge of . To which Question of T.D. What Light is it you intend ? When R.H. honestly and truly replyed thus , viz. The Light , i.e. the Light of Christ ( about which only the Question was ) is but one . T.D. replies thus , viz. The Lights mentioned , viz. ●aturall and supernaturall Light are two ; and though all have the one , yet few have the other . Rep. 1. Here let all reasonable men judge , whether thou T. D. dost not clearly yeild us our Question , which was not at all about the measure of the Light , whether all have the same measure of it or not ? for we affirm not that , but whether all have some measure of that same light that shines from Christ , the light of the world , yea or nay ? not whether all have so much , as whereby they actually see all the things of God , and the Gospel , which are to be seen , or arè seen by some , but whether every man hath some or no ? i.e. so much as whereby to discern some of the things of the Spirit of God and the Gospel , severall divine Attributes , and many duties , i.e. so many , or such as God requires of him in particular , who requires of every one according to the ability and degree of light he giveth , and accepteth every one according to what he hath from him , and not according to what he hath not ; which measure walking answerably to , they stand excused , uncondemned , alias , justified in the sight of God , but rebelling against stand accused or condemned : and this T.D. thon consentest to , and affirmest with us , so clearly , that all thy after dispute upon it does not fetch that again which thou grantest to us , it being about another Question of thy own starting , which we deny not , ( viz. ) Whether all have the actuall knowledge of the mystery of the Gospel in the light yea or no ? For mark , We grant ( sayest thou ) that every man hath some light , i.e. is in some sort enlightened by Christ ( for thy grant is to the Question above , whether by Christ or not , or else thy Answer is beside the purpose ) And besides p. 4. thou denyest not , but the Gentiles afore Christ were enlightned by Christ ( as God ) ( though yet to the contradiction of thy self again , as if the being enlightned to know , and a man knowing were all one , thou there sayest they were afarre off from the knowledge of that ) by whose light be discernes ( though dimly ) ( and how dimly or clearly is nothing to the purpose ) many sins , and duties , and several divine attributes . In which words thou sayest as much to our purpose as we would desire thee . It s ill stumbling at the threshold T. D. at the very entrance of thy work , and yet no lesse thou didst again in Limine at the very beginning of our Disputation with thee , , about the Scriptures being the Word of God , as is to be read in thy own Relation of the second dayes work , p. 25 , 26. of 1. Pamph. where thou sayest the Question I promised to discourse upon was , Whether the Scriptures were the word of God ( and that indeed was the Question ) to which , as soon as in answer to thy desires of knowing what I held about it , I denyed that the Graphe , the Gramma , the Scriptures ie●te , writing , or outward text is the Word of God , thou repliedst by way of compliance with me , saying , You cannot believe us so simple ( surely ) as to affirm the Scriptures in that sense to be the Word of God : And I say , if not in that sense , then in no sense are they so truly and properly , that I know of , but I.O. his foresaid non-se●s● , who , howbeit he is forced to confess Ex. 1. S. 28.40 . to the yielding the cause to the Qua. that the matter contained in it only is said to be so , but that the Scripture formally considered , or the littera Scripta , or letter written , is not within , and is not intended in those innumerable places of Scripture , where the word of God is said to be preached , published , multiplied , received , which , as is shewed more at large above , is as non-sensicall , as for a man to say , that the Lantern ( though formaliter it be not so , but only the light that is contained in it , is so ) doth yet challenge to it self that name of the light , as its proper name , yet engages himself against the Qua. in vindication of the Word of God to be the proper name of the Scriptures ; so truly , that those are injurious to it , and oppro●●ious reproachers of it , who will not allow it to be properly called by that glorious title . So thou engaging thy self in vindication of the Scriptures to be the Word of God. 1 Giving us the Question to have been debated , flinkest away into the proof of another matter , saying , that ye upon the matter contained in the writing ( which , say we , is another business , the holy truth that is there told , and the Light and Word of God , Law and Gospel there witnessed to , being a thing to distinct from the Scripture of it , that as it is now where the letter is not , and was two thousand years before the letter was , so it will be for ever , for its an euerlasting Gospell , when the letter of it shall be no more ) Whether that be your Rule of Faith and Life ? a matter in no wise denyed by the Qua. if not only by the Scripture ye mean ( as properly ye cannot do ) the holy Doctrine , Truth , Word , Light , Law , Gospell of Christ therein declared , to be in some measure at least in the heart of every man , preached in every Creature , that they may hear and do it ; but also by thy Term , Our Rule of Faith and Life , that which de jure ought to be your Rule ; otherwise if ye say even of that de facto , that it is your Rule , or in esse actuall that which ye do actually and indeed walk by ; I deny even that also , for howbeit ye should own that also , ( and not the letter and text only , as I.O. doth ) yet so farre are ye from so doing , that if thou do not , yet at least I.O. both doctrinally and practically denies , and damnes it down , as a meer nescio quid of the Qua. coyning . Moreover much what in the same manner dost thou in the Point of Iustification , give us no lesse then the Question , as to the Termes wherein it was stated , and then startest a new Question in thy Sophisticall s●● it of subtil●y , which is so familiar with thee , that it 's seen by any that are but ●● unculi only in the thing called Dispute , by staring and translating the old one under new termes . For witness thy own disagreeing , counterfeited Account thereof , p. 14. 1. Pamph. the new Termes , wherein ( that thou mighest the more easily wrong me by thy wrong Representation of me to the world , as a rank Papist , and render me suspitious , and the more securely write me out , as thou do●t in the second Page of the lying Narrative of thy second Pamp. under that traducing Title , of one suspected to be a Iesuite ) thou with much ado ( as thy phrase there is ) drewest and wrestedst the Quest. into , and ●ayest ( on thy own head ) they were slated in were , whether Our Good Wor●s are the meritorious cause of our Iustification ? which I hold in the affirmative no further , then as by Our good works are meant the good works of God , and Christs own working in us by his Spirit , which ( though most truly his ) are by the Spirit it self vouchsafed that name of Ours , witness Isa. 26.12 . not as by Ours , those only of our own working in our will , wisdome , and strength , are expressed and intended , for all such are Our righteousnesses , which I ( who own none of Christs working in us to be so , as thou T.D. blasphemously dest , if p. 15. and 22. of thy I. Pamp. be rightly , soan'd ) do own to be but durg , l●ss , and filthy rags , according to Isa. 64.6 . But the true terms of the Quest in which it was stated and debated ( if we may , as sure enough we may , believe the joynt testimony of both thy self , and those Gentlemen and Ministers in the Margent , as in thy Epistle thou stilest them , of whom there thou sayest also , they are witnesses of the terms of the Questions agreed to by the Qu. before the testimony of thy single ; double , lying , self-contradicting self ) were otherwise ; witness thy own Relation thereof in thy lying Narrative , which hath not any thing at all of that little truth that 's in it , more true then this , wherein p. 58.1 Pamp. setting all these witnesses ( viz. ) Hen. Oxenden , Io. Boys , Esqs ; N. Barry , T. Selyard , C. Nichols , Ministers , o're against it in the Margin , to testifie the truth thereof , together with thee , thou relatest thus ; The terms of the third Quest. were , Whether Good Works be the meritorious cause of our Iustification , which was expresly affirmed by them , i.e. by the Qu. * in which terms , staring the Question without that term Our , which is of thy own fois●ing in the other place , where , even thereby , on thy own head , thou alterest the stare thereof , and makest it clearly another Question : I affirm it to this very day , and ever shall to the faces of any of you ( as occasion is ) yet owning no works to be truly good , but what are done by the Believers in Christ , and his Light , and done by Christ , and his Power and Spirit , whether in their persons , or his own , who never did evil work in his , or ( without blasphemy ) in Paul , that can be call'd ( as thou call'st that he wrought in Paul , and works in us ) Pauls own , and ours , which is but dung , less , and filthy rags ; or deserve condemnation , or any less then Justification , both of himself and his Saints in the sight of God , by any good work that ever he wrought , either in himself , or them . And so my Argument , a Contrariis , ye so ball and squabble with me about , was both intended , and urged in effect , ( viz. ) If evil works deserve condemnation , then good works no Condemnation , alias , Iustification ; but this is true ; therefore the latter . Which question so stated , thou T.D. not only affirmest with me : For thou neither dost , nor da●est deny , but that we are justified by the good works of Christ , or that any of his worksare not good , or are a violation , and not a fulfilling of the Law , only thou foolishly flamst it off with his good works done , ad extra , and not ad intra , without only , and not within us , thy folly in which I have largely enough manifested before , but also urgest the same thy self , P. 15.1 . Pamp. thus ; viz. Evil works , which are the violation of the Law , d ▪ serve Condemnation ; Ergo , Good works , that are the fulfilling of the Law , deserve Salvation , and we know no good works such ( sayest thou ) but Christs ; and so say we too . Thus thou givest us that Question also . And this G.W. tells thee of , and turns upon thee in his Reply to thy first so plainly , that thou dost but add to thy shame in thy Reply to him again , p. 10. of thy 2. Pamp. which begins with a flat lye , which I 'le note here , now I have it in hand : I did not ( sayest thou ) directly affirm that good works , which are the fulfilling the Law , deserve Salvation , but that from the Rule of Contraries ( which S.F. urged ) we might so argue . Now if thou confess , that by that rule we may so argue , then the thing is so secundum te , or else thou canst not truly say we may so argue , and that is as directly to affirm it as one need be desired to do : So thou hast not much mended thy matter , nor by thy lye lick't thy self sound of what G.W. laid on thee ; but indeed thy words , as thy self repeatest them in thy first Pam. p. 15. are directly positive , and not suppositive ; for after many other positions , thou layest down that thus , viz. And again , thus the rule will allow to argue , which if it be not so , then the rule will not allow us so to argue : As to what follows in that Rep●y , as its excentrick , as to my purpose here to meddle with it , so it ( as well as well nigh all thy doctrinal doings in thy second Trifle ) is no more then what is by praeoccupation answer'd above in my occasional considerations of thy first , term'd the Qua. folly , to which thou referrest thy Reader so much , that thou mightst well nigh as well have said no more to the world in Reply to G.W. then thus ; viz. For an answer to G.W. I refer the Reader to my Qua. folly , which he hath already answered : Therefore I shall say no more to it here . So in those two Quest. as I have shewed , thou givest us the Quest. and then fallest in with us , in a seeming shew of fighting with us about other Quest. which we deny no more then thou , and thou thy self affirmest as much as our selves ; and so is it in this Quest. about the Light : Thou confessest with us , that all have seme light , but ( sayest thou ) the mystery of Godliness , as summed up , 1 Tim. 3. we deny all have the knowledge of : And p. 2. if your meaning be , that the knowledge of the Gospel is vouch safed by Christ to every man , either I expect your proof , or shall prove the contrary : And so upon a taking it for granted ( as thy own and I.Os. manner mostly is ) before it s given thee , for no such thing did we or R.H. consent to , by speech or silence , saving thy hasty prate ( and so G.W. tells thee in his Reply , to whom thou , having as little to plead in excuse of thy rash charge of us , replyest as little in proof of it ) as that the knowledge of the Gospel is vouch safed to every man ; for we own , as G.W. there sayes , that some are in the darkness and ignorance of the Gospel , though the Light is in them , that is able to bring them to know the Gospel , which they disobeying , and not liking to retain God in their knowledge , are blind unto . I say , taking , or rather rashly raking that for granted that was not , thou proceed'st upon that score plainly , belabouring thy self in evincing a business that none gain-sayes , viz. that all men do not actually and truly understand the Mystery of Godlinesse and the Gospell ; and as childishly arguing all along , a non actu ad non potentiam , a non esse ad non posse , from mens not knowing God and Christ , that they are in no capacity , by a measure of light shining from them into their Consciences to know them . The Mystery of Godlinesse ( sayest thou ) we deny , all men have the knowledge of ; and so p. 5.1 . Pamph , 't is spoken of as a distinguishing Mercy , to know the Mystery of the Kingdome of Heaven , it was given to the Disciples , not to others , Matth. 13.11 . Rep. To which I reply , Who doubts of this ? it was hid from some , and the knowledge of it given so some , not to others ; but who were these some to whom given , when not to others ? were they not the Disciples that learnt at the lips and light of Christ , what he taught them , and saw willingly what he shewed them ; when the rest ( who might else have come to know , and have had it given them to know as well as these ) were such as had it declared in them , with the righteousness thereof , but that they shut their eyes , stop their own ears , lest they should see and hear that , which was contrary to their evil deeds , they were ●●ath to leave , and reproved them ? But what of this , are they therefore without the Light that shewed it , and the meanes of the knowledge of it ? what idle arguing is here ? The Mystery of Godliness as summed up , 1 Tim. 3. ult . God manifest in the Flesh , justified in the Spirit , &c. We deny as well as thou , that all men have the knowledge of , for without controversie it is great , and so great , that ( saving all that knowledge thou thinkest thou hast , and wouldest be thought to have of it ) it remains yet a Mystery to thy self : But what then ? will it therefore follow , that all men , in case they come to his light , are not enlightened by Christ in some measure to know it ? Because all are not enlightened so much as some are by Christ , and all do not know what they might know , if they hearkened to Christ , and heeded that light they have , therefore some are not enlightened by Christ at all : Here is the sum of T. D's . Arguments ; and ( as I shall shew anon ) of I. O's I. T 's . R. B's . also against the saving light of Christ's being in some measure in all men . The consequence whereof is as inconsequent as his , who disputes from the Power to the Act , or rather from the non-being of a business , to the non-possibility of it to be , to which from the other no wise man , nor any who is not more Sophisticos then truly Sophos will once offer to argue . To be without knowledge is one thing , to be without the meanes of it is another ; to be ignorant of the mystery of Godliness , the Gospel , and Kingdome is one thing , and not to be ( in potentia , eriam proxima ) in an immediate possibility to know it , or to be utterly without any of that Light which leads to it , is another . Men may have light to see by , and the faculty or sence of sight too , who yet may shut their eyes and not see at all : Men may have the faculty of understanding given them from God , whereby to know him , as 1 Iohn 5. He hath given an understanding , i.e. th8 / 6 / 2003 6 : 51PMat faculty , that we may know him , that is true ; and this all men have , the inward visive faculty ( unlesse fools that are d●fective in their naturals , who yet have the faculty too , for defect in it doth not nullifie it ) though thou T. D. p. 4. f●●lishly and absurdly limits that as a speciall gift to ●ome only , as if the Nations of men were without the faculty of understanding , whereby to converse with spirituall objects , if revealed to them by the Light , and it be heeded ; and some are in the actual understanding of him that is , 〈◊〉 , and that is indeed the special gift of God to such as walk by that light , and in th●● light th●y have , as Iohn and Christs Disciples did and do . And over and above that faculty they may have a light to di●cover sp●rituall objects to that understanding , and ●o enlighten them ●o , that they may savingly 〈◊〉 , and yet may never come to kn●w for all ●his , in case they come not to this light , as evil ones do not , Iohn 3.19 , 20. but hate it , and chuse rather willingly to be ignorant , not delighting in , but saying to God , Depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes . From may be to must be is such a 〈◊〉 sort of Sillogirt a●●tion , as is not owned in foro Academico , in the Schools of meer Animall , naturall men , much lesse of Christ and Christians . And so that men know not , see not , Therefore they may not , cannot see if they will , have neither eyes , nor light , this is as meer a non-sequitur , as to say of such as , not being willing to behold it , shut their sore eyes against the sun-shine , that therefore they have no eyes , and the Sun shines not at all upon them . Yet this is the common Topick from whence our Divines T. D. I. O. I. T. R. B. as we shall see by and by , and in a manner all our be●ghted Doctors draw their Dreams and deeply dark Arguments against a measure of Christs saving light so shining in every one ; and the ( now empty ) Quiver out of which they have no● spared till they have spent all they have to shoot , too shoot their sharpest Shafts against the Quakers : Not having so much light left in them●elves , for want of walking in time by what they had , as to heed that men may know that , if they be not wanting to themselves , which , if they be by not trading with their Talent , they may also be as ignorant of , as they might have been knowing in . T. D. sayes , Every man hath a light , and that light is from Christ too , witness his own saying , wherein unawares he over-shoots himself again , to the contradicting of himself , yielding up the Question to us , p. 6. 1 Pamp. expounding Iohn 1.9 . viz. Christ enlightens every man that is enlightened ; from which ( ad hominem ) I argue back upon himself , out of his own words , viz. Christ enlighteneth every man that is enlightened ; this T. D. aserts from Iohn 1.9 . But every man is enlightened , hath some light , whereby he discernes many sins , and duties , and divine attributes ; this T. D. cannot deny , for this is his own , p. 1. Therefore T. D. ( though to the shame , contradicting and confounding of himself he does so , yet ) cannot rationally nor honestly deny what the Qua. affirm , That every man is enlightened by Christ the light of the World , and Mediator between God and man. Indeed T. D. sayes , 'T is but dimly , that all men discern some sins , duties , divine attributes . Repl. To that , as it s nothing to the Question , so I reply , Every man discerns them not so clearly as he might do , because he heeds not so heartily as he should do the Light that shewes them . It s nothing whether men see and understand or no , it s enough , that the Light shines into their hearts and understandings , to give the knowledge of ●●d , and so it doth in them , who are yet in darkness , and in a stare of it , for the true Light shines in the darkness , though the darkness comprehends it not , Joh. 1.5 . T. D. thinks he mends all in p. 2. of his 2. Pamp. by Eph. 5.8 . Ye were sometimes darkness , but now Light in the Lord. Rep : What then T. D. Did not the Light shine in them when they were darkn●ss , and did not comprehend it , because not turned to it , as now they were by Pauls Ministry , who was sent to turn men from the darkness to the Light that shines within them , by which they became Light in the Lord ? yet if your meaning be ( sayest thou there , and that is our meaning indeed ) that all men have the Light of the Gospel within them , only all m●n do not obey it , 't is contrary to the Scripture . Rep. Why so T. D ? He opposes the state of darkness ( sayest thou ) in which they were , to their present state of light . Rep. What then T. D ? because they were in a state of darkness , had they no light shining in them , by taking heed to which at last they came out of it into a state of Light ? How often shall I need to tell thee and I. O. that for the true Light , and Kingdome , and Gospel , and Righteousness to be in us ( in semine , in the Seed ) is one thing , and for us to be in that , is another ; the Kingdome of God , even the Seed of Righteousness , Peace , Spiritual joy ( as evident as the contrary seems to be to blind I. O. Ex. 3. S. 42. who there sayes , In omnibus non esse justitiam , pacem , gardrum in confesso est ; its evident , that Righteousness , Peace , and Joy , are not in all ) was sown in the Pharisees , as the Word of God is in four sorts of ground , whereof but one , that is the honest heart , that receives it with meekness , when there implanted , inlaid , ingrasted , brings forth the fruits thereof unto perfection , though the Pharisees never entered into it , witness T. D. himself , who howbeit he joyus with I. O. in saying from Luke 17.21 . The Kingdome was among the Pharisees , only in the ministry of it without ( mistaking it to be en umin , as if 't were 't were enough against him ) for entos umon , which I. O. confesses is us'd but once more in all the new Testament Text , Matth. 23.16 . where it signifies the very inside of a vessel , yet joyns with me also , both against I. O. and himself too in the same place , p. 5. 1. Pamp. saying , The expression may import , that the Kingd●me , which upon a mistake ( such a one ( say I ) as upon which our Pharisees look for it without them at this day ) they did look for without them , was indeed a Kingdome within them ; and yet he sayes , this Kingdome in them was threatned to be ( and was too ( say I ) at last , as it shall from you ) taken away from them . How often shall we need to tell you ( ye blind and deaf ) that to have light shining in one is one thing , and to be in it , in a state of Light , and the children of it , is another ? to have the Gospel preached in men is one thing , and for men to learn the mystery of it is another ; the Gospel is preached in every creature under heaven , Paul sayes , Col. 1.23 . en pase te Ktisi ; yea , have they not all heard , saith he , Rom. 10.18 ? yes verily ' ( alluding to Psal. 19. ) by which allusion thou thy self also expresly confesses , T.D. p. 30. 1 Pamp. the Apostle would intimate , that the knowledge of the Gospel should be of as large extent in the publication , as the knowledge of God by the ministry of the heavens and the firmament ( which is so to every individual man , that there 's neither speech , nor language , male , nor female , where their voice is not heard ) the found is gone out into all the world , and their words ( even Christs and the Spirits within , for the outward words and writings of men , preaching the Gospel thereby , have never yet extended nor reached so largely as to all men ) to the ends of the earth . Yet all have not obeyed the Gospel ( saith he ) no not Israel it self without , of whose having the outward Letter of the Statutes and Iudgements ( which thou as sillily callest ( against thy self too , as G.W. truly tells thee in another case ) callest in both thy Pamphlets the Supernatural Light , or knowledge of the Gospel ) thou keepest such a scraping , as if that fleshly natural seed of Abraham , and their natural fleshly wayes of knowing what they know , which was little of the mystery , 2 Cor. 3. by that natural reading and poring upon the Letter , as ye also do , were the most supernatural men and means , as to the saving knowledge of the Gospel , in all the world ; whereas the Iews were as meer Animal , and Naturall , as your selves , who savingly know nothing by the Letter : I say , that Israel it self obeyed not ; and why not ? because as husie as they were with you in their Bible , they regarded not , but rebelled against the strivings of the Lord himself with them , by his Light and Spirit within ; therefore ( saith Paul , ver . 21. as the reason render'd by God himself , Isa. 65.2 . ) All day long have I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and gain-saying people . Also , that they have the Light in them , who yet neither believe in it , nor are the children of it , but yet abiding in darkness , is as clear from Chrihs own words , Iob. 8.12.12.35.36 . I am the light of the world , he i.e. he of the world , that followeth me , shall not abide in darkness , but have the light of Life : Walk while ye have the Light ; while ye have the Light , believe in the Light , that ye may be ( it seems they yet were not so , yet had a Light in them to believe in ) the Children of the Light ; some of which Light was come , not unto them only , but into the world also , ver . 26. That who e're believes in it might come out of darkness ; and evil ones had it come to them , as well as such as did Truth , though they came not to it as the other did , else they could not be said to see and hate it ; and so Christ and the Father , whose will was revealed in it , as they are , Iohn 3.20.12.48 . and 15.22 . 23.24 . So Christ is come by his Light ( as the Sun by its beams , into some dark Dungeon ) into the dark world , the dark places of mens hearts , and of the earth that are full of the habitations of cruelty , Dens of Devils , Cages of unclean and hareful birds , holds of cruel , wicked , fowl , and filthy spirits , to give life , and that abundantly , Iohn 10.10 . yea , he came to the Scribes of old by his Light , not outward person only , to that end , yet they had not the Light of Life ; why so ? Ye hear not Gods Voice ( saith he ) and have not his Word ( which ye put from you ) abiding in you ; ye search the Scriptures , which testifie of me , who am the Life , and there ye look to have it , and come not unto me that ye might have life , Joh. 5.37.38.39.40 . Wisdome , Christ the Wisdome of God reproves , cryes to men in their own consciences by his own Voice , Light , and Spirit in their hearts , even to scorners , simple ones , fo●ls , that hate knowledge , and would poure out his Spirit on them , as on others ; but some hearken not , hate , turn away , so are slain , and perish , not for want of warning , counsel , Light from Christ to lead , who is given as the one Leader and Law-giver to all persons and people , but for want of taking heed to him who teaches , and looking to his Law in the heart which enlightens . Thou call'st , as I.O. does , falsly , the Letter Christs Light , and the only means that men can come to saving knowledge by , yet heed'st no more , then he to his , to thy own satisfaction , that all who have it , and look and read in it too , as the Scribes did , have not the knowledge of God and his Kingdome by it ; and yet if we should say of those men that come not to Life by the Letter , therefore they have not the Letter , would'st thou not say of us , that we are mad ? mutato nomine , the Argument is thine to us-ward , as concerning Christs Light in the Conscience ; yet , nunquam videns id manticae quod in tergo est , thou canst not see it . The Corinthians had the Light shining in their hearts to give the knowledge , yet all of them had not the true knowledge of God ; and that they had not , when he shone by his Light in them , 't was their fault , else Paul could not have spoken it as he does , 1 Cor. 15. to their own shame : And this may stand as an answer to thy pedling Reply to G.W. when he urg'd from 2 Cor. 4.6 . that the Light shone in the Corinthians hearts : in whose hearts ( sayest thou ) p. 4. 1. Pamp. not of all mankind , but of the Apostle , and some others , a small number , in comparison of the rest , who were not enlightned ; and to back that thy shameful blindness , in limiting the shinings of the true Light into such a little nook , as a small number , thou boltest out much more , saying , from ver . 3.4 . the Gospel is hid to them that are lost , and there are some to whom the Light shines not ; not heeding ( as I said before ) that that may be in men , which men may hate , smoother , and hide in their own hearts , and be lost for want of the sight of , when not for want of the Light it self ; that men may have the serse of sight , and the presence of light , and yet not see , but shut their eyes ; that that may shine in them , which , they giving way to the God of this World to blind their minds , may not shine out unto them ; as a Candle may shine in a Room , yet if put under a Bushel , not shine out to it , and a Talent to trade with may be given to him , who , hiding his Lords money , shall reap little profit by it , and at last have what light he had within , taken from him , and be cast forth without , into the outer darkness . Didst never read of those , that seeing and hearing , would neither see , nor hear , nor understand , nor perceive , as they might , therefore at last should not if they would ? and because thou askest in whose hearts ? I say , in the hearts of some , who did not see and know ; in the Corinthians hearts , so that they all had the light , and might have seen , but only that some would be ignorant , and of such sayes Paul , 1 Cor. 4. If any man will be ignorant , let him be ignorant . And sith thou sayest , not in the hearts of all mankind : I say , yea , of all mankind , if any be exempted , it must be the Heathen that know not God , the wicked ones , that like not to retain God in their knowledge , that have not the Law in the letter of it ( according to thy Principles ) but such are not exempted ; for Rom. 1.19 . That which is to be known of God is manifest in them , for God hath shewed it in them , even his eternal Power and Godhead , and the invisible things of God from the beginning , which ( in his own light within ) are clearly seen by the things which are made , for the Heavens declare his glory , the Firmament shews his handy-work without , and by his light within in the understandings of men ( taking occasion thereby to contemplate on his Greatness and goodness , as David did , Psalm 8. When I behold the Heavens , Moon , and Stars , the work of thy fingers , Lord , think I , what is man ( saith he ) that thou visitest him ? how excellent is thy Name ? and such like ) doth God reveal his Greatness and Goodness in regarding the sons of men . Object . That makes for us thou mayest perhaps say ; God by these Preachers without gives the knowledge of himself to the Heathen ; but what is this to your light within ? We confess ( quoth I. O. p. 40 , 41 , 42. that God reveals and declares himself to us by the Works of his hands without , Creation , Providence , &c. His Works teach , and what they teach they do it in his Name and Authority , p. 44. Repl. The Heavens , &c. declare the glory of God only passively , as Books , on which by the light within men may see and read it ( as also they may in the outward letter , which more verbally , though lesse visibly declares it ) but not so actively as Tutors , that make a verball discourse upon it , for that is done by the light within , by which that To●gnoston tou theou is said to be manifested more immediately by God himself in them ; for howbeit the Works of God hands , the outward Creation , have a more visible stamp or character of Gods Greatnesse and Goodnesse on them , then the meer outward letter hath , that is the works of mens hands and fingers , though writing ( as inspired ) what they see by the light within ; and the letter , and outward character thereof makes a more formall , wordy Narration of it , then the works do ; yet that which most powerfully , and effectually , and actually teaches daily what the other in their respective more obscure and inferiour wayes do declare , ad extra , must be something ad intra , which falls in with , and teaches men , even the Spirit of God in the faculty of mans understanding and Conscience , and the inspiration of the Almighty , Job 32.8 . that gives the wisd●m and knowledge of him , whether by , or without the other , which without the other ●an and often doth , to men born blind , give the knowledge of God , as those ad extra , can never do without this ; for whatever knowledge men have of God its by it , and whatever is to be known of God by men it is , as the Sun by its own light , manifested by this of God in them only , and not by the outward seeing of a of a w●k , or writing ad extra , which cannot be seen themselves ( any otherwise then as Bruits may behold them bodily ) without not only the faculty of the rationall wind , which is the Eye , but the Light from God also to manifest the object to the understanding which light is not Eyes ( quoth I. O. p. 77. ) 't is not the visive faculty or understanding it self , but ano●hing , a b●am of light communicated from the holy Spirit to the understanding , for the removall of the dark shades that are over the mind , whereby it is led to see and judge of Truth , as men see by the Suns light , or else they cannot , though they have Eyes ( Howbeit elsewhere , Ex. 4. S. 18. to the shamefull contradiction of himself again , I.O. sayes , this light is the Eye of the Mind ; Lumen hoc est oculus mentis ; and S. 3. Lux est facultas illa intelligendi , Opsis dianoias , omma tes psuches , ophthalmos dianoias ; making light and sense , or the visive faculty as one , whereas before he had said , one was not the other , O Rotas ! ) for where both these are not , viz. Eyes and Light suitable to the object , and the one exercised , and the other improved also , deest aliquid intus , still somewhat within is lacking , either Eyes or Light , ( or as 't is in such as have not forfeited those ) willingness to see when they may , and men can no more see God by the letter , nor his works without , then Beasts , that can with bodily eyes discern both the Skies and the Scriptures ; and in a word , unlesse the light within manifest this , and it be heed by men also , though there be both Skies and Scriptures without , obviated to men without , and that faculty of the understanding also within , yet can men in their minds come to no more true knowledge of God , then they can without the light of the Sun without , which manifests them and it self also , see the outward Sun , and materiall Heavens with the outward eye : not only the faculty of sight in the Eye , and also a light to shew the objects needful , ( else , as T.D. himself sayes , a blind man might see when there is light , and a seeing man when none ) but a third thing is needful too , i.e. an Eye opened to the light , and to the object , else he that hath Eyes and light too , may shut his eyes and not see it : And as whatever is to be known of God , is to be known by that light within , or not at all ; so by it are men capable to see and know , taliter qualiter , in such measure as they have of the light , not only some things , sins , duties , divine attributes , as T. D. dimly and diminitively delivers himself about this , but also , as they grow in it by degrees , everything , as well as any of the things of God ( To Gnoston ) that are knowable , or to be known of him by man to his own salvation ; I say , in such a degree ( which varies not the case ) as men have of it , they may come to know all things answerably , taking head to it , and doing the Will of God as revealed in it , and that not naturally , as by the help of a naturall light ( as our Naturalists or meer Animall Academians call it ) but spiritually , as by such or such a measure of the spirituall light , that flows , not as I.O. sains , and T.D. would fain seem to make it also , as the rationall faculty it self , a Principiis Naturae , but from God , Christ , and the Spirit into the minds of men ; and in such wise as they know any thing in that , they know it spiritually , by a supernatural , and spirituall , inward , immediate Revelation of it to them by God himself , whereupon ( contrary to that Vsteron proteron of our carnal , naturall , and litteral Preachers , who say that is supernaturall knowledge only , that is attained to by reading the letter , which letter with I. O. T.D. and the rest , is the spirituall light , and that but naturall which comes from Gods own Light into all mens Consciences , which Light they will by no meanes allow to be called spirituall , but 〈◊〉 naturall ) I affirm that to be but the naturall knowledge of the meer Annuall , naturall man , that is scrued out by the improvement of their naturall faculties of reading , remembring , &c. in their Academicall , Arteficiall Scrutinies into the Scripture ; which naturall knowledge ( though theirs , who wrote the Scriptures , to be by immediate spirituall Revelation I deny not ) abounded among the Iewish Doctors , Scribes , and meer naturall Rabbies , that stole the true Prophets words , yet knew not God spiritually by hearing his words , which are Spirit , nor by that spirituall Revelation , or inward immediate reception of ought from his own Councell , Light , and Mouth , from which only comes the true spirituall understanding , little lesse then it doth among our modern Ministers of the Letter , who , not coming to the Light , know as little of the Spirit , & of God , who is a Spirit ( though they read and preach he is a Spirits from the Letter ) and as little of the Mystery of the Gospell ( spiritually ) as they . Though then I. O. and T. D. both call the common Light in mens Consciences , whereby they know much of God , of his Will , as to marter of sin and duty , and of his divine Attributes , Iudgements , &c. and all the knowledge that comes thereby , but naturall , and call the Letter , and all the knowledge that comes now by reading of that , only spirituall ; see T.D. p. 1 , 2 , 3 , 5. of his 1. Pamph. p. 1. 3. of his second , by the Statutes and Iudgements given to Israel ( which with T. D. is the outward Letter of the Old Testament ) are meant the supernaturall light or knowledge of the Gospell ; but Rom. 2.15 . which speaks of the Light or Law in the Conscience , is spoken ( quoth he ) of naturall light opposed to the knowledge of the Iews . And I. O. p. 77. The Scripture is a morall and spirituall , not a naturall light : But that in all mens consciences he calls , p. 42. the light of Nature ; and p. 47. where he calls that from the light a naturall Knowledge arising from the innate Principles of Reas●n , and that which is from the reading of the Letter , a supernaturall Revelation ; Ex. 4. ( where how to the contradiction of himself he also calls it spirituall and not naturall may appear anon ) S. 15. speaking of the Qua. negant lumen hoc naturale esse aut itadici debere sed a Christo & Spiritu Christi esse , they deny this light to be naturall , on that it ought to be so called , saying , it s from Christ , and the Spirit of Christ , S. 17. Lumen internum omnibus commune naturale est , The Light within common to all is naturall ; and so proceeds , in suo genere , to prove it : Likewise I. T. and R. B. say the same , p. 33. it is yielded , that there is naturall light from Christ , given every man : Such light as Christ , as Mediator , conferrs not on every person , but all sorts of men , is termed supernaturall : So p. 40. and elsewhere they call it , light by nature , and humane light : Yet I say the quite contrary , the Letter , and the knowledge it gives , is the naturall , as I have shewed above , by which wicked men , that corrupt themselves also in those things , come to know naturally , and not spiritually , nor savingly the mind and will of God , ex principiis naturae , by custome , often use , and memory , &c. as brute beasts may by outward observance and custome know somewhat of the mind and will of man , Iude 10 but the light in the Conscience , some of which all have , and the knowledge that comes thereby is the spirituall , supernaturall , and not the naturall light and knowledge ; 〈◊〉 this in the Power of God I trust in brief to make good against you all ; though enough hath been said afore to any but such as you , that will look for more proof of it then wise men would do . One Argument , by which its evident to all that are not blind ( as ye are ) that the Law in the Heart , or Light in all mens Consciences , is not naturall , and so consequently is spirituall , is even this from whence T.B. concludes it naturall , viz. because opposed to the knowledge of the Iew● : of the Iews knowledge by the Letter was but naturall ; The light within , and knowledge by that being opposed to it , must be not naturall , and so consequently spirituall ; but that was but naturall , for they were mostly but naturall men , and worse , as they are at this day , persecuting and opposing ever the things of God , Christ , the Gospel , and the Spirit , and all that are born after it , and have the spirituall knowledge of the mystery by it , as the naturall knowers by the Letter do at this day ; and that the natur all man discernes not any otherwise then naturally , and not savingly , and so not spiritually the things of God and the Spirit , Paul tells us , 1 Cor. 2.14 . and T.D. also tells us , p. 3. of his 2. Pamph. from that very Text of Paul , where he gives this irresistat●e Reason for it also , Because they are spiritually discerned . Whence I take occasion to argue further thus ; viz. Argum. 2. That Light which gives to discern savingly ( as heeded ) the deep things of God and the Spirit , which none but the Spirit of God and Christ searches out , knows , and savingly reveals , and which , as to salvation , are not by the naturall man , but spiritually , and by the spirituall man only discerned , who hath the mind and Spirit of Christ , must be not a naturall , but a spiritual and supernaturall light , and the knowledge that comes by it is not natural , but supernatural and spirituall . But the light in the Consciences of all gives to discern the deep thing : of God , & the Spirit in some , i.e. in such a measure as it s heeded , which none but the Spirit of God searches , &c. Therefore it , and the knowledge that is by it , is not naturall , but supernatural and spiritual . The Mino , which our sore-named Divines do deny , is as evident to such as live in the light , as the light it self is , and not a little of it evidenced by their own handy-works who oppose it . Two Particulars there are in it to be proved ; 1. That the Light in all manifests or gives ( as heeded ) to discern in some measure the things of God and the Spirit . 2. That ( as heeded ) it manifests them savingly . As to the first , I need go no further then your selves for witness , we have it under your own hands ; T : D : p : 1 : Pamph. confesses of that light , of which all men have some , that thereby all discern , not may sins only , which are the works of the flesh , which the letter sayes are manifest ( not by it self , but ) by the light Christ gives , Gal : 5 : compared with Eph. 5● 13 , 14 : but also many duties , and severall divine Attributes . Now mens duties to God , in matter of declining sin , eschewing evill , and doing good , and Gods divine Attributes are things of God and the Spirit , or else neither I , nor those who wrote the Scripture neither , know what the things of God and the Spirit are ; for they tell us , that our duties of Love , Ioy , Peace , Meekness , Long suffering , Temperance , Patience , and such like , are the fruits of the Spirit , and that not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh in the sins of adultery , fornication , uncleanness , lasciviousness , hatred , wrath , strife , envy , drunkenness , revellings , and such like works of it , is the fruit , effect , and issue of walking in the Spirit ; and if these , Love , &c. be not things of the Spirit , excuse me if I say the Spirit which moved them to write that Gal. 5. knew not his own things himself ; and if ye say that Gods Divine Attributes , Mercy , Iustice , Iudgements , Truth , Holiness , are none of his things , excuse me also , if I favour not foolish fancies so far , as to spend time , pains , and paper to prove they are to them , which is so clear , that 't were as idle a thing to make clearer then it is , as 't were to light a candle to shew a blind man , qui ad s●lem caecutire vult , that the Sun shines : And that the light doth manifest not only sins and duties , but the said Divine Attributes also , as we have had T.Ds. witness against him , so let us take I. Os. testimony against himself too , and then we shall be pretty well as to that : Which I.O. preaches it out in print in two Tongues , lest one should not be loud enough , in English thus , p. 42.43.45.46.47 . by the innate light of Nature ( so he calls it ) and principles of the Consciences of men , that indispensible moral obedience which he requireth of us his creatures , subject to his Law , is made known ; by the Light that God hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men , accompanied with a moral instinct of good and evil , seconded by that self-judgement which he hath placed in us , in reference to his own over us , doth he reveal himself to the sons of men ; the Voice of God in Nature ( so he calls it ) declares it self to be from God by its own Light and Authority , there 's no need to convince a man by substantial witnesses that what his conscience speaks , it speaks from God , whether it bear testimony to the Being , Righteousness , Power , Omniscience , or Holiness of God himself , or whether it call for that moral obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shews forth the work of the Law in the heart , &c. Those common notions are in laid in the natures of men by the hand of God , to this end , that they may make a Revelation of him , as to the purposes mentioned , and are able to plead their own Divine Original ( Mark , of Divine Original here , in-laid by Gods hand , yet anon , flowing ex principis naturae ) without the least strength or assistance from without ; and in Latine , Ex. 4. S. 14. Non tantum multae Coinat Enn●iai , &c. — Englished thus , Not only many common notions and principles of Truth abide fixed in the understanding , by the efficacie of which , men may discern some divine things , and discern between good and evil , but also by the help of the Conscience take heed to themselves , as concerning many duties , with respect had to the Iudgement of God , which they know they are liable to : Moreover , this Light in all at years of understanding , by the consideration of the works of God , Creation , and Providence , manifesting his Eternal Power and Godhead , and in some by the Word preached , may be improved and confirmed ; but how far this Light can direct , stir up , and provoke mens minds to yield obedience to God , and they by it be left without excuse , it pertains not to this place more precisely to discuss . One of the main things pertaining to this point , about the Light to be discussed among the rest , yet I. O. I believe was afraid to thrust his fingers too far into the fire here , for fear lest pr●ying too narrowly how far the efficacy of this Light extends , he should , being forced to see somwhat that he is loath to see , both loo●e his cause , and open his conscience too wide , and therefore would wade no further there . I need not open it to him that is not defective in his naturals , how in all this as , if not more abundantly then T. D. in that above I. O. confesses , and witnesses to the truth of the first part of my minor Proposition ; viz. that the Light in the Conscience of all , as heeded , gives the knowledge of those things of God , and his Spirit , which the Spirit of God only knows , searches , and shews , and reveals to such as wait in his Light , to have the mind of Christ manifested in them therein , which the natural man , by a natural light , cannot so know and di●cern . Only Ob. If it be objected , those are the deep things of God there spoken of , 1 Cor. 2. which your Light in the Conscience of all is too shallow to search out ; yea , the glorious things of the Gospel it self , the mystery of which T.D. who knows it not yet himself , for want of turning to it , sayes by that Light within , All know not , and the natural man discerns not . Answ. That the natural man , which is he that leans to the Letter , and his own understanding , and looks not to the Lord in his own Light and Spirit in the heart , as spiritual men do , and in the doing of which , men of natural become more and more spiritual , de facto , discerns no otherwise then naturally , not savingly and spiritually , I still grant , but a non esse , ad non posse still nil valet : Our question is , how far that Light ( heeded ) avails that way ; which I affirm is so far , that according to the measure of it in men , and their attendance to it , it leads gradually ( as the Light and Spirit , and anointing of God is said to do , such as abide in it , as it in them ) into all truth , the knowledge of the very deep things of God and the Gospel , a dim shallow sight of which it gives to such as turn to the least beam of it in them : E. G. the Iudgements of God , are one of the deep things of God ; thy Iudgements are a great deep , Rom. 11.33 . His Judgements and the wayes of it , and Wisdome of God therein , are a depth : O the depth●hewr uns●archable his Iudgements , his wayes , past finding out ? No natural man , by the improvement of his natural understanding in reading the Letter can know them ; Israel did not , who had the Iudgements and the Statutes in the Letter , for want of looking to the Light and Spirit any more ( excepting the few spiritual ones , and children of the Light , that were ever hated among them ) nay , nor so much as many Heathens that had and heeded the Law , or Light in the Conscience , yet had no Law in the Letter , but were more sottish , stupid , fearless of God , ignorant and prophane , then the Heathen , among whom the Name of God was blasphemed for their sakes , insomuch that Paul saith , Rom. 2. the very uncircumcision , as to the Flesh and Letter , doing in the Light , by which they were made a Law to themselves , by nature ( not corrupt nature , as T. D. thinks , nor by the pure nature , in a measure restored , without , or abstract from the Light , the things of the Law ) were better to God , then the literal professing Iew , and more just and justified , to the very judging of them , who by boasting of the Letter , and Circumcision without , broke the Law in the heart , and less lyable to wrath then the other ; which shews how God counts more on obedience in Morals , Spirituals , Evangelicals , without the Letter , and literals , then on all Burnt-offering and Sacrifice , and lifeless conformity to the Letter . Yet the Heathen themselves , by the Light in the Conscience ( though videntes meliorae by it , they did mostly deteriwa sequi , see much , and do little ) at least came to know in a measure within themselves , the very righteous Iudgments of God , that th●se that did such things as they did , are worthy of death , Rm. 1.32 . And thou I.O. confessest the same in thy words above-recited , Iudicio Dei se subesse cogu scunt ; and the Light within , and moral instinct of good and evil by it , seconded by a self-iudgement placed in us : Yea , Ioh. 16. The Light and Spirit of Christ , the Saints Comforter , that walk in it , is in the Office of a Convincer to the world , of Sin , and Iudgement , & the Law , which is the Light in all , is spiritual , Rom. 7.14 . Ob. And if ye say we grant that , but what of the Gospel of the Righteousness of God , and the riches of his Grace in Christ , and what of Christ can be known in that Light ? Answ. If ye will needs count the Iudgement and wrath of God , which is a depth unsearchable by any that look only in the Letter , which only tells of his wrath , or by any , save such , as , living in the Light , have come to feel it within themselves ( for who knows the power of thy wrath ? saith the Psalmist ; none , say I , but such as waiting in the Light , have felt the weight of his hand , while Judgement and Condemnation passed on their evil deeds ) I say , if ye will reckon Wrath , Iudgement , and the Ministration of Condemnation , none of the things of God , none of his deep things , nor the things of his Spirit and Gospel , because your eyes are out ; but reckon it to the Law or Old Testament only , and not to the Gospel , to which yet it truly belongs , or New , which is the ministration of righteousnesse and mercy : Yet I answer further , that not only Iudgement and Wrath , but the Righteousness , Salvation , Mercy , and Grace of God in Christ , and Christ himself is preached and revealed in the same Light , in which the Iudgement and Wrath is revealed ; as it is the effectual work of the Law in the h●a●t , to accuse , reprove , and condemn him that doth evil ; so ( V●sinet Apello , I appeal to your selves , who assert it is ) is it not its work to excuse , acquit , justifie him within himself , who declines the evil , and does the contra●y Good ? Is there true righteous Iudgement done , where as well mercy , comfort , peace , and acceptation with God is not ministred to the innocent ( though Abimelech the Heathen ) when they are found in integrity of heart , to Gentile as well as Iew , as terrour , r●proof , rejection , and wrath to every soul that doth evil , Iew or Gentile ? Beside , say not the Texts afore-cited , that the Spirit convinces the world of Righteousness , as well as of sin and Iudgement ? and that in the same Light ( which is indeed the Gospel , and call'd by Paul so , and the Power of God unto Salvation ) in which the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness , and unrighteousness of men , that withhold the truth told them by God himself , and his Light in them , in unrighteousness ; the Righteousness of God also is even therein revealed , from faith to faith , among the Iust , that turn to , and own the Light , and live by faith in it , Rom. 1 ? I know and see how ( page 3. 1 Pamp. ) T : D : would make a difference , if he could tell how ( that he might maintain his natural , or rather su●te , natural di●course about the meer naturalness of that Light , that shews Sins , Duties , Divine Attributes ) between that one Light ( say I ) in which the wrath is revealed , and in which the righteousness is revealed , where in answer to that unanswerable saying of Paul about the To Gnoston Tou Theou , when G.W. used it against him thus ; Thou sayest 't is meant of a Natural Light , whereas 't is said to be the knowledge of whatsoever is to be known of God , Rom. 1.19 . T.D. replyes thns sillily . the Apostle intends , that what might be known of God without the preaching of the Gospel , was known to the Gentiles , verse 16.17 . 'T is by the Gospel that the righteousness of God is revealed . Rep. As if we must think the Apostle in that phrase , Whatever is to be known of God , is manifest in men , excluded and excepted the Light of the Gospel , and inward Word , of which he talks elswhere , Rom. 10. That it s nigh to men in their hearts : And Col. 1.23 . is preached ( viz. ) in every creature under heaven , and meant only some nescio quid , I know not what kind of manifestation that hath nihil commune cum Scripturis , holds no Analogy with the Scripture , because T.D. makes his shallow sensless say-so on the place , whose Reply ( but 't is his usual way , when he has nought else to say , to make what additions to , and alterations of a Text he pleases , and then to say , when there 's no such matter either expressed or implyed , it intends so and so , or it intends not so , though so said ; God indeed in many Texts makes offer of Salvation to all , but intends it only to a few ; by All , is meant Some , by in us , in Christ , and many of the like sort ) is not worth any other Reply , then to tell him , it 's not worth a Rush ; and G. Ws. saying to him out of Paul , stands o're T. Ds. head still , for To Gnoston , what is to be known of God , is any thing that tends to mans Salvation , without such an exception as T.D. adds , to the making of Paul there ( as he does God and the Penmen in many more Texts ) dissemble , like to T.D. himself , so as to speak one thing , and intend another , that destroyes the very sense of his own words . But saving T : Ds : mis-meaning of that matter assuredly enough , the same that reveals the wrath reveals the righteousness ( & retro ) and that that reveals the righteousness is a measure of the light of the Gospel of Gods rich Grace and Goodness , that is given to Impenitents , to lead them to repentance if they obey it , and so to forgiveness and life , or otherwise to leave them without excuse , when having trifled away the time of Gods long-suffering and forbearance , in rebellion against the light , God comes in his righteous Iudgement to take full and finall vengeance upon them : Whereupon it is called the riches of Gods Goodness ( which is never the lesse to them , though they perish in their wills ) even to them that yet despise it , by which they are not left without faithful reproof , and warning within themselves , but are put in fair capacity for Salvation from the wrath , for the despising of which Light , that will not let them sin themselves to ruine , without stopping them , till they be obstinate , they treasure up wrath to themselves against the day of it . Rom. 2.4.5 . Despisest thou the riches of his grace , &c. not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance , &c. Arg. That which is the riches of Gods goodness and grace to the very wicked that despise it , and perish , which would else lead them to repentance and Life , must needs be a part of the Gospel , and its Light ; but such is that which leaves , and is in all men , in the very wicked , leaving them inexcusable if they repent not by it ; therefore that Light in all men , Iew and Gentile , good and bad , is a measure of the Light of the Gospel , which ye puffers at it would fain shut up , from shining in common in al men , among a few such unhallowed Elect ones , and seeming Saints , as your selves ; for that the Grace of God that brings Salvation , where it is , to such as put it not far from them , should be said by us , as it was of Paul , Tit. 2.11 , 12. to appear to all men , is as damnable Heresie with you in us , as 't is undeniable truth with you , as told by Paul : Yea , this ye are impatient at , that Proclamation of Grace , and good will from God to all men , with true intent that all should have it , that are as willing to have it as God is they should , or otherwise then pretendedly , as you make it , should be made : And yet the Churl , that practises hypocrisie , and utters errour against the Lord , and ( howbeit he sayes , Eat , O friends , drink , yea drink abundantly every one that thirsteth , Life , as well as death is freely and truly set before you , chuse Life , that ye may live , and welcome , Christ is come , that ye may have life , and that abundantly ) yet makes empty the soul of the hungry , and causes the drink of the thirsty to sail , by telling them that God freely proffers this to all , but intends it only to a few , would be called bountiful and liberal for all this , but it must not be in the day that is coming , wherein the eyes of such as see shall not be dim , and the eye of the old Seer be darkened , the tongue of the stammerer tell the plain truth , and the mouth of the University Student be stopped , and the lips of the Lyar be shut up , Isai. 33.3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. This common Salvation , Iude 3. ye cannot digest , 't was wont to be said , Bonum quo c●mm●n us eo Melius : But if I should say ( instead of Pe●us ) Bonum quo communius eo Melius , it were not more false Latine then the tale of a tender of life from God to all men , intended only to a few , is the false Doctrine of our undoctor-like Divines , which false Doctrine they contradict and confute themselves in also , if once they could see wood for trees , as fast as another can well confound them , while themselves tell us of , not only a Special , but a Common Grace , which is the common distinction of the Schools ; for if it be Grace ( though Common Grace ) it must be a Light , a Gift , a part of the Gospel of Gods Grace , out of which Gospel no Grace is , and such a part and gift too , as must at least , by its sufficiency to save such as improve it , put all in a capacity for Salvation , and not sufficient only to leave them without excuse , and aggravate wrath and condemnation upon them , otherwise that Grace is no true Grace or favour , or if it be , give me none of that Grace , take you ( O ye Graceless Gravers of that Grace , whose Graven Image it is , that hath a being only in your imaginations ) that Grace wholly to your selves , that is given for no such gracious end or purpose , as to put men into possibility of Salvation ( as upon your principles of personal Repro 〈◊〉 , this common Grace does not ) but only to render them unavoidably lyable to sorer condemnation , and fuller wrath , then they should ever have known , had they never had it . But what e're ye carve to your selves in your own conceits , God had 〈…〉 to the whole world , as well as to you choice sinners , and in as fair a capacity ●●ally to partake of it are the very Heathen , who by you are rep●obated by the lump , as your Antichristian selves , except ye repe●● , ●u●● then I●●e by your books ye have ever , yet done , to a ●ound and sin●● acknowledgement of the truth : Nor did God send his Son a Light 〈◊〉 the w●●● , that mostly perish in their wills to any such intent , that the world it self should be condemned , but that the world through him might be saved . So then it s no less then a measure of the Light of the Gospel it self , a dram , at least , and degree of Gods Grace , and that not natural , but spiritual , supernatural , sufficient for men , and saving to such as submit to be taught by it , which from God is imparted , and by his hand ( as thou I.O. speakest ) indelibly implanted in the minds of all men , whereby his things , and the things of Christ , and his Spirit , come by such as wait on him in it , to be both spiritually and savingly discerned . And Ob. If ye object yet further ( as some do ) we yield that what is to be known of God , his invisible things , his Eternal Power and Godhead , Divine Attributes , and our moral duties to him , in declining moral evils , and doing much moral good , as to our Creator , eternally and indispensably due , are manifested in measure by that common light , but deny that any thing of Christ still , and of the mysteries of the Gospel is so , and so it s still but a natural , nor a spiritual light . Answ. Though what I said above from 1 Cor. 2. concerning the things that eye hath not seen , &c. and the deep things of God , which must be of the mysteries of the Gospel , might suffice ; yet I shall add thus much more , viz. That it savours of little less then a little of that gross darkness which is to cover the earth , and its people , when the Light of God arises upon his own , to say that God can be known in , or by any Light , in which Christ first is not known : I know this is a Riddle to you Rabbies , and may seem to all sottish Seers as a piece of a mad mans Divinity , but I dare aver it to be truth , though I can't believe many of our English Infidels will believe it , till they see it so clearly , that they cannot chuse ; for how many wayes of knowing God ye may coin to your selves , in your own conceits , I care not for knowing ( for more then a good many ye have ) but this I know , that if the Scriptures be true ( as I know they are ) which ye profess to be your Rule of Tryal for all things , there is noe true way of coming to the true knowledge of God , so much as a Iudge , much less as a Father , but one , and that is neither the Scripture itself , which tells of that way , nor any thing else , but Christ himself , and his Light , to whom God hath committed all Iudgement , which Iudgement he administers by his Light , before any see his face , as a Father , in righteousness and live : He hath given forth a Light to the world , whereby to know himself , but this Light is in his Son ; he that hath the Son , and believeth on the Son , in whom is the Life , and his Life is the Light of men , hath everlasting Life ; he that hath not , and believeth not in the Son , hath not life , though he is capable of it , but by the Light in which he stands condemned , the wrath of God yet abideth on him : So that whereas ye say there 's knowledge of God , but not of Christ , by that universal , internal light , there is in truth no knowledge of God at all , but in the Light of Christ , who bears his Image , who gives forth the Light of the knowledge of his own glory in the face of Iesus Christ : I am the way ( saith he , John 14.6 . ) the Truth , and Life , no man cometh to the Father but by me : The Father reveals the Son in men by his Light , before he reveals himself , Gal. 1.16 . So that as no man knows the Son , but he in whom the Father reveals him , so no man knoweth the Father , but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him ( as he will to all that wait and walk on in his Light ) let him search ne're so long after , or in the Letter , Mat. 11.27 . Ioh. 6.45.46 . till he feel after him in the Light within himself , in which only God , who is not far from every man , though most men are far from him , is to be found Act. 17. No man hath seen God at any time , the only begotten Son who is in the bosome of the Father , whose out-goings from thence have been from of old , Mic. 5.2 . as well in a way of manifestation of the Fathers mind to men , from the beginning of the world , as in way of Eternal Generation , before the world began , Prov. 8.20 . to 32. though T.D. not knowing the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , knows not how to say Amen to this . See page 4. of his 2. Pamp. he it is , that by his Spirit and Light within , which the Letter only relates of , doth reveal him , Ioh. 1.18 . Men must know Christ , i. e. in his Light which Cornelius was in , which is his day , that Abraham saw , whether they ever see his fleshly person , yea or nay , before they can know God , who is known in nothing but his own Light , the Son , who is known in nothing but his own Light , the Spirit , that comes from , and leads to him ; so that to say , as a Professor of note said in a publike Assembly in Ireland , of a Friend of Truth , call'd a Qua. whom I know , having heard him speak , This man knows much of God , but little of Christ , is little less then a Bull that favours , for all the natural , literal knowledge of both , of little less then a spiritual ignorance in the mystery of both God and Christ. And this gives me the hint to make mention of another Argument , That this Light is not natural which is in all , viz. because it comes from God and Christ into every creature , not by Creation , as the rational Soul , and its faculties of understanding , will , mind , memory , conscience it self do , and such properties as are , de esse hominis , whether constitutive , or consecutive , so that a man is no man at all , or hath not the essential form of a man , as distinct from the outward Brutum , or Beast of the Field * for a man may remain Phusicos , a natural man , or rather Psuchicos ( as the word is in many places , where rendred natural , as well as where sensual , 1 Cor. 2. 1 Cor. 15. Iam. 3. Iude 15. ) a true animal , soul-ly man , a man that hath a Soul rational and sensitive , though in its faculties defaced , clouded , darkned , benighted , and lost from the Lord , and his Light now withdrawn from him , even after the Light is kid from his eyes ( as it was ever at last from such ( as to any life by it ) who would not be led to life by it , while they had it ; witness the Pharisees , and Ierusalem ) and after he remains now irrecoverable for want of Light , to the primitive pure nature , which only loveth and obeyeth the Law , and delighteth truly in the Light. The Light , then I say , comes from God and Christ into the mind and Conscience , not as the Soul , and its essential faculties of understanding , will &c. do , which with the Organical body , make that one compositum call'd man , that may be either in unity and communion with God and Christ , or in onmity and separation from them , according as he walks , or walks not in the Light that shines from them , but by way of immediate infusion from them into the mind and conscience ( which of itself is a dark place , 2 Pet. 1.19 . and destitute , as to the knowledge of God , without a measure of it ) as a thing distinct and separable from the man in whom it is , and a witness against him , when he runs from the Will of God revealed to him in it , though eternally one with God and Christ , from whom it shines and flows ( and not ex principiiis natura , as I. O. sayes ) with whom it ever sides , let the man go whether he will , never consenting to any , but condemning all iniquity committed by him , and counselling continually ( whether heeded or no ) before hand against it : And lastly ; from whom it is as unchangeably inseparable , as the light beams and rayes of the Sun are from the Sun it self from whence they shine , with which they are in conjunction still , whether this or that part of the world be actually enlightned by it , or by the Moons interposing eclipsed from it , yea or no. So that upon these considerations it can't be natural as I.O.T.D. I.T. R.B. deems it , but do nothing at all to the purpose in proof of it so to be . So that in further proof of it to be spiritual , and supernatural , and disproof of their proof-lesse position , that its natural ; to save the pains and charge of laying them out at length , I lay down these following proofs , which wise men may argue out more at large , to their fuller satisfaction within themselves . Argum. The Light in all Consciences shines thereinto from God , Christ , and his Spirit ; therefore 't is not natural , but supernatural and spiritual ; for these two ; viz. natural and spiritual , natural and supernatural , do tollere se invicem are inconsistently denominated of one Light , and that it is spiritual , is shew'd after also : The consequence I. O. denies not , but confirms , while himself Ex. 4. S. 15. opposes all Light that can be call'd natural , to that which is from Christ and his Spirit , * and as for the Antecedent , that its from God , Christ , and his Spirit , is as evident from their own Confessions and Declarations ; I. O. calls it the Voice of God , page 44. indeed he adds in nature , by which 't is like he intends that which nature utters , or the voice of nature ; but there is no Voice of God , which is natural to man , that I know of ; he that finds out that Chimera , must have it in the nineth Chapter of no where at all , or else in the tenth of Go look it , for he will never meet with that monster in the Scripture , nor in any rule of right reason : Indeed Nature may be said to have a voice , as well that of man , who is fearfully and wonderfully made , as that of the natural , material Heavens , all which declare suo modo ( ut prius ) the glory of God the Maker ; nor is there speech or language where this voice of nature is not heard ; but that this voice of nature , is the Voice of God in the Conscience , or that Light within he speaks of ; or that the Light or Voice of God in the heart , is a Voice of God , de esse hominis , essential and natural to man , credat Apella . He calls it , page 43.45 . A Light God hath implanted in the minds of men , that which speaks to man from God , of a Divine Original , and such like terms as are exclusive of its being but natural ( for himself pleads the Divine Original of the Letter , as now , which yet is not of so immediate a Divine Original by far , as the Light by which God speaks nigh in the heart ; for at first it came to men from him through the hands of holy men , and now to us rem●tely through the hands of how many unholy men we know not , in proof of its being a true spiritual , and not a natural Light ) and also exclusive of its being the mind and conscience it self , as some call it , saying , it 's Conscience , it 's Conscience , when as it is as distinct a thing from the mind , understanding , and conscience it shines in , and as little essential to it , as the candle is ( respectively ) from and to the dark room wherein it shines : But this that God by his Light within shews something of himself to all , is not much denied by you , nor are ye easily perswaded by us , but that all that is but natural still ; but ye deny light in common to all , coming from Christ and his Spirit , which though I have shewed so plainly above , from Iohn 1.9.16 . 1 Pet. 3.19 , 20. Col. 1.23 . where Christ is said by his Spirit to have strove with , and preached to the Spirits in prison , in the world of old , to convince the world , and enlighten every man in it , and the Gospel to be preached in every creature ; yet a word more with you here as to this ; let us see how far your selves confess to it , and deny it . T. D. confesses , page 4.1 . Pamp. or at least denies not the Gentiles to have been enlightned by Christ ( as God ) before his coming in that Body at Ierusalem , but it seems denyes he did , or does enlighten all ( as Christ ) and I. O. sings much what to the same tune with him , Ex. 4. S. 25. saying , Nihilnon naturale , nihil spirituale , nihil specialiter a Christo mediatore emanans communicatum , &c no Light that 's spiritual , none but what is natural flowing , or no Light shining out from Christ ( as Mediator ) nothing but what men , yet destitute of all saving knowledge of him , may have without Christ , and apart from him , is mentioned Rom. 2.14.15 . and Ex. 4. S. 17. Christus sub nulla , &c. Christ in no case hath vouchsafed saving light to all and every man ; in all which sayings I. O. seems to confess with T. D. that God indeed , and perhaps Christ ( as God ) may vouchsafe to all Lucis cuasdam scintillulas , reliquias nonnullas Primitivae lucis ( as he diminutively speaks ) Some relikes of the first Light man was lost from , some small sparks of light , &c. to all men ; but these are but meerly natural , neither supernatural , spiritual , nor saving , or sufficient to bring men ( however heeding them ) to any saving knowledge of God ; but as for Christ ( as Christ ) the Mediator between God and Man ; there 's nothing , no Light at all that 's saving , or by the best improvement of which , that can be made , they can possibly come to Salvation by him , so much as vouchsafed by him to all , or to any , but some Elect ones . Yea , Ex. 4. S. 11.12.13 . Christian , &c. That Christ doth not indue ; and savingly enlighten all , and every man , but some only that is the Elect , with that Divine Light ( in respect of which we confess him to be the Light of the world , and consequently of al men ) is so ascertain'd from innumerable Testimonies of Scripture , and the experience of all Ages , that he must even be blind and destitute of all spiritual understanding , that shall once dream to the contrary : And S. 17. Lumen hoc , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare sed in ribus-emnibus divinis , finem ultimum quod attinet , meraetenebrae & caecitas ; This light howsoever attended to , is in no respect saving , but in all divine things as to the utmost end , meer darknesse and blindnesse it self : thus these men ; and the same in effect is asserted by R : B : and I : T : as will appear more by and by . I must therefore down rightly address my self , as the Lord shall lead me , not minding the method so much as the matter it self , to reply to all this stuffe , whereby T : D. and I : O : I : T : R : B : in speciall , who as Generals to other blind Guides of poor , blind people , against the Qua. strive to storm the plain Truth out of dores . And to evince it , that some measure of that true , spiritual , and ( if attended to and improved ) saving Light and Grace , in respect of which he is said to be , the Light and Saviour of the World , which is spiritual Light ) for in the same senses , men are said to be darkness , are they enlightened ( quoth I. O , ) but without controversie the men , the Spirit speaks of , Iohn 1.9 . were not naturally blind , but spiritually darkness ) is vouchsafed , and shines from Christ ( as Christ the Mediator between God and man ) even to all , and every man in it . First I shall follow on in the way I was going on in to clear it , that Christ ( as Christ ) the light of the world , by his light and Spirit , and not ( as God only ) enlightens every one , in the proof of which the rest is all concluded , though yet I may grow on to take notice of the rest in particular also . And first I shall minister the Truth to you from that Text , which you Ministers against the Truth do so mangonize among you , as to make neither more nor lesse then just as many meanings of , as ye are men ; for between you Four there are Four senses put upon it , whereof though some of them , in terminis , are true enough to serve Truths turn against you , yet as ye mince your matter in the minds , and as ye mean and wrest your own true words , as well as the Text it self , the wrong way , there is never a one of all four that falls fully upon the white . That Text is , Iohn 1.9 . That was the true light , which enlightens every man coming into the world . That the true Light here spoken of is Christ , and the light that comes from him , which Iohn Baptist , a shining light in his season , but inferiour to him , was not , but only bare Testimony to , in whom is Life , and whose Life is the light of men , that shineth in that darkness , which comprehends it not ; and so consequently not a naturall , stuens ex●●●piis naturae , much lesse as natural to man as his Intellect , Mind and Conscience it self , as I. O. sayes that Light which all have is , ( Ex. 4. S. 18. Lumen h●● est naturalis propria & niseparabilis mentis & conscientiae vis & efficazia ; eculus ( and yet , p. 77. light is not eyes ) & acies me●tis est . St lumen hoc non 〈◊〉 naturale , neque intellectus neque mens neque conscientia homin naturalis est ) and insufficient , but a spirituall , supernaturally and all sufficient Light to save all ●●ch in whom it is , in case they believe in it , is a truth , which as it is undeniable in it self , so I never yet met with any , Minister or other , that was so deeply darkened as to deny : Yea I. O. positively affirmeth it to my hands , Ex. 4. S. 24. Lucem & illuminationem quarum hic loci mentio facta est Spirituales esse a●que ad renovationem gratiae , non naturales atque ita ad creationem pertinere apparet , &c. It appears that the light and illumination , mentioned John 1.9 . are spirituall , and pertaining to the renewing of Grace , not natural , and pertaining to the Creation : So that were there as little as there is much to be said beside , all those particulars ( if the universality of it hold but as well from the latter part of the verse ) stand proved without any more ado : the Question then which alone we are concerned to enquire into , is , Whether this Light ( which , as I. O. sayes , Ex. 4. S. 19. non est salutare cum sit naturale , so I contrary , non est salutare cum sit salutare ) be so common to all , that every man that cometh into the world be enlightned with it in some measure , yea or no ? Now we have the expresse words of the Spirit on our side , and are sure enough ( as to our selves ) that we have the mind of Christ in them also , which is but one ; but on their side are their own senses , minds , and meanings , which are so many , even no lesse then four to that one of ours , which most properly answers to the words , so that if they can't carry it by weight , yet they hope to have it by number , and chuse to out-word us since they see they cannot out-weigh us , hoping that several senses may well stand and take place against one single one ; but as a dram of honesty , and naked simplicity , is to go further then a deal of subtilty , and hypocrisie in the dayes that are coming , so one of the Qua. proper constructions of Scripture will be preferred by honest people before a four-fold improper one of the Priests imposing : The Qua. are in possession of the plain Terms of the place , and of that meaning which most properly answers to them , saying , That by every man coming into the world , is intended , honestly and plainly , truly and properly , without dissimulation , every man indeed , as 't is there expressed , and that the Spirit meanes nakedly and truly what he sayes ; these stand proking , pelting , and stickling , with a company of stones , and sticks , and strawes to storm the Qua. out of the strong Hold they have in it . 1. As for T. D. he lets fly out of the Devils Bow ( in which he shoots , which L. H. hath unstringed and enervated not a little as to many false matters of fact he charges the Qua. with , by his discharging at them out of it ) no lesse then three severall senses , or senseless shafts , viz , two p. 6 and one p. 36. of his 1 Pamph. every of which has truth in it , as to the termes he utters himself in , but so false , as he pinchingly intends by by his own words , that all three of them , put together , do not reach far enough to make up the whole truth , that is there intended , and so by short shooting he loses all . His first sense is this ; viz. That Christ enlightens every man that is enlightened . Repl. So say I ; that makes for us , that is every man without exception ; for thus I argue ( shooting back T. Ds. Arrows against himself , who overshot himself in one sense as much , when he gives this sense to that place , in his words , by which he gives us the cause , as in his minde he under-shoots the Truth in another , for he meanes not by them ( though his phrase imports it ) that every individual man is inlightned . Christ enlightens every man that is enlightned . But every individual man is enlightned . Therefore Christ enlightens every individuall man. The first Proposition is T. Ds. own ; the Minor , viz. That every man is enlightned with some light , is his own grant also , p : 1 : where he sayes , We grant , that every man hath some light , by which he discernes many sins , and duties , and several divine attributes : So that let his meaning be what it will , if he meanes as he sayes , ( as it is fit he and and every honest man should , and as the Spirit does ) we have his own words , as well as those of the Text , on our side also against himself ; therefore T. D : if he own himself , must ( of all men ) own the Conclusion , viz , That Christ enlightens every individuall man. 2. Whether T. D. saw any advantage he had given us by this sense thus expressed , or no , it matters not ; but expressing his mind , as to the interpretation of this Text , p : 36 : there he adds a clause , by which he imagines he mends the matter , and so he does , as much as one that makes it never the better ; for there he shoots out his sense thus , That Christ enlightens every man , who is ( spiritually ) enlightned . Repl. Which is very true , yea so say I again ; but this Arrow does no execution against us , nor that universal sense in which we expound the words , according to the universality of their expression ; of which it is no way at all exclusive ; for what though Christ enlightneth every man that is spiritually inlightned , it doth not follow ( unless T. D. had said , as its like he meanes , but that his sayings and meanings so seldome agree together , that he measures the Spirit also by himself , as saying one thing , and meaning another , and so would set the Spirits words and the Spirits meanings at odds , and together by the eares against themselves ) Christ enlightens only such men as are spiritually inlightned . Nor secondly , if he had said so , would it have followed , that every individual man is not enlightned , for of a truth every individuall man is not only enlightned , but also spiritually enlightned ; for he that is enlightned to discern spiritual things , good or bad , spiritual wickednesses or spiritual righteousness , many sins , and duties , and divine attributes , which are all spirituall objects , and some of them some of those things of the Spirit , which the meer natural man , without the Spirits revealing , cannot know , because they are spiritually discerned , that man must be spiritually enlightned ; so out of a better Bow then the Devils , even that of Iosephs , which abides in strength , I shoot back T : Ds : second Arrow again , thus against himself , as that which hath done us no harm , howbeit he meant it otherwise , it being in his mind to have mischief'd the Truth : viz. Christ enlightens every man that is ( spiritually ) enlightned , witness T : D : p : 36 : but every individuall man is more or lesse even ( spiritually ) inlightned , i. e. to discern spiritual objects , which by the Spirits revealing them only , and not naturally , but spiritually only , or by the Spirit are to be discerned , witness T : D : again p : 1 : therefore Christ inlightens every individuall man. 3 T : D : who hath mostly two , hath here a third string to his Bow , left the two first should not hold , from which he shoots thus , viz. He enlightens some of every Nation , Kindred , Tongue , and People , as the phrase is Rev. 5.9 . Repl. And this , however he meanes pinchingly , yet is true too , in terminis , that Christ enlightens some every where , a number in all Nations , as he expresses it over again p. 36. for the termes ( all ) and ( every one ) are conclusive continually of ( some ) but that Arrow reaches not far enough to wound our universal construction , so long as the termes ( some ) ( a number ) ( many ) without a ( but ) put to them , whereby to bolt out othersome which is wanting here ( though elsewhere added and by and by to be talkt with ) is not exclusive of all men , of every man , nor of any man ; and so his bow and bolts shoots too short to hit the Butt still : Nor is the Phrase Rev. 5 : 9 : which T : D : in his fancy , fellows , and Identifies with this in Iohn 1 : 9 : like it in any wise , for one is ( enlightens every man in the world ) the other ( Redeemed us out of every Nation , &c. ) were it , Redeemed every man in every Nation ; and made every man in every Nation : and Kindred , &c. a King , a Priest to God , &c. then it had been somewhat nee● a Kin to it indeed . Thus T : D : by his single self , with all his sharpest shafts , or sorry shifts , can make nothing stick to the gaining of any ground against us , nor so much as to stirre us a hairs breadth from our interest in it , much lesse to storm us out of the strong Hold we have in that high place of Scripture , wherein the Qua. stand over the head of the Serpent , to the bruising of it : Let us see ( sith vis unita fortior ) what the joyned forces of him and I. O. together can do , for they two , who fight as under from that Text in some of their several senses against the Qua. fall in together in one of their four or five senses ( even that which hath the least sense and reason in it of all the rest ) and so of two make one most senselesse head against the Qua. and the Text , and the Truth , or true sense of the Spirit , no lesse plainly imported and implyed to any , but that darkness which comprehends not the true light when it shines in it , then it is plainly end evidently exprest therein . That sense I shall joyn issue in against them both at last , but there lies on single sense of I : O : wherein T. D. joyns not with him , wherewith I. O. shoots out of the same Bow , as hard as he can , against us ; though too short to hit or hurt us , the which must be shot back again upon himself first , in the service of the Qua. and the Truth , which it serves perfectly , while not at all themselves , nor their own false doctrine , and then I shall have the more Field-Room to fight them both in about the other . The sense of I. O. which is not only his own neither ( though T. D. appears not to own it with him ) for I have seen others besides as himself seeking to shuffle off the Truth with it , is this , viz. Christ coming into the world inlightens every man ; and this sense seems to be ushered in with a deal of p●mp and ceremony , as if I : O : was confident of carrying the cause by it , when it first Center'd within his conciet , and so intended to act his Triumph over the Qua. before his effecting of the victory : I shall set down some of his triumphant matter , wherein he marches on towards the Text , where he meets us , and make some occasionall notes on some crosse whets to himself , and halts , and inter-feeres he makes by the way . I. O : Videan●us porro quid contra garriunt Fanatici , ut que operam dent quacum ratione aliqua insanire videantur , &c. Ex. 4. S. 23 , 24. Le ts see ( quoth he ) what the Quakers prate to the contrary , and how they do their best to shew that they are not mad without some Reason ; but they bring no new thing , they are old worn out Arminian matters they bring , a thousand times confuted already : they have nothing more frequently in their mouth then those words concerning Christ , John I. 2 . They never make a more horrid out-cry , then when they come upon this place ; here they fain wonderfull triumphs to themselves , and not a little cast ignominy on their adversaries . Repl. No otherwise , I say still , do we reproach , then as the Virgin of Sion , Isai. 37.21 , 22. Despised , laughed to scorn , shook her head at the insolent filliness of the haughty Assyrian , that reproached , blasphemed , exalted his voice and lifted up his eyes on high against the Holy One of Israel , in his Truth and People , o're whom he looked so superciliously , as if he would pluck them out of Sion by the eare● , when he was not so much as to shoot an Arrow , that should reach to do any execution there : No otherwise then as plain Ephraim , the people , and the honest hearted Sons of Sion are at this day , in the Spirit and Power of the Lord ; to be raised against thy silly-seemingly-wise Sons , O Greece , and to be made against you Greekish Scribes and Disputers of this world , as the Sword of a mighty man , and a polished Shaft , and his Bow , and Arrows , and Battel-Axe in his hand , to beat down , aud break in pieces the Horse and his Rider , and , as the Potters Clay , the works of them that turn Gods things upside down , so that it shall be said , Where is the Scribe ? where the Disputer ● where is he that counteth the Towers , &c. Mich. 5. per totum , Zach. 9 , 10 : per totum : Isai. 33. 1 Cor. 1. And thanks be to God , who alwayes maketh us thus to triumph in Christ , and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place : which ye Doctors and Divines cloud and darken with your di● , dry Divinity , for we are unto God ( though a stink to your unsavory selves ) a sweet savour of Christ in them that are saved , and in them that perish through their hatred of the light that enlightens every of ●homs , without an illumination by which there were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to them for rejection of it : neither are we as the many 〈◊〉 that hu●ksterin●● and deal decei●fully about the Word of God , for their own self ends , but as of sincerity , as of God , in the sight of God speak we in Christ , 〈…〉 J. O. They say that Scripture Speaks of Christ , he therefore is the light , Christ is the light , and moreover be inlighteneth not this and that man only , but every man that comes into the world , that is , all men , and every individual of them , neither could anything be affirmed more clearly . Repl. Neither could it in truth , but that the selfish Seers are all blind , and its ni●ht unto them so that they cannot divine . I. O. That the Scriptures are to be interpreted ( extorsimus ) we have enforced it from own Adversaries . 〈…〉 w●ll do 〈◊〉 thou say , extorsimus , we have wrested it from them by force 〈◊〉 how 〈◊〉 own the interpretation of the Script . ( which is no way of any procure interpretation ) may be interpreted by the same publick Spirit of God that gave it forth , and by those that open it in the light of that Spirit ; yet we never yielded it to you yet , nor never shall , that the Scripture is to be opened by that dark , private , narrow , selfish , sottish spirit of Satan , that in you lusts to envy against the truth ; nor by that fallible Spirit that ye are searching the Scripture , and preaching out of it by , who your selves deny any man ( as is above shewed ) to be in these dayes guided by any infallible direction of the infallible Spirit of God : for that fallible Spirit of yours , which leads you into as many meanings on it well nigh as ye are men that meddle with it , ( and more too sometimes , one man putting two or three senses ( as T. D : doth ) and two men no lesse then four between them , as I.O. and T. D. on one Text ) does but make such a nose of wax of the Scripture , as may be and is too ( whereby ye may see what a steady Rule ye have of the Letter without the Light ) turned and twined by every of you into his own turn ; till ( as the Picture that every Passenger had liberty with a Pensil to mend , what he thought and fancied to be amisse in it as he passed by , at last became a mishapen Monster ) so the Scripture is scrued into such a multiformity of mens monstrous meanings , that he must be monstrously blinded indeed , within a while , who will not see a necessity of a more stable Standard to measure Truth by , then a transient , much mistranscribed , much more mistranslated , most infinitely misinterpreted Text , Letter , or outward writing can ever possibly be , which more stable Standard is that of the infallible Light and Spirit , not ( as I. O. judges it must needs be , if not the letter ) that pretended unerring Popes breast and bosome , and his infallible chair . J. O. The sense of this place comes now in question . 1. Christ is light , to wit , in the same sense in which we have shewed God is light ; he is light in respect of his essentiall Majesty , Holiness , and Glory ; also he is light quatenus , & ● as he is the Fountain , Author , and Cause of All light , that is essentially , and efficienter , as the efficient of it . 2. Christ is said to be the light of men , not that light which is in men ; he is the cause of all light , not all light , not that accidental and corrupt light , whereof we speak . Repl. O yes , hear all manner of people , who is so blind ( but I : O : himself , who is in suis Tal●● ) as not to see how I : O : gives up his Cause by the way , while he is but upon his triumphant march toward the Text , before he touches it , whereabout the pitcht Battel is to be . The grand Question , about which his Quarrell with the Quake●s is , is , Whether Christ as an Efficient doth enlighten all men , yea , or nay ? That all men have some light , are in some measure enlightaed within themselves , to discern sins , duties , divine attributes , moral good ; and evill , the things of God and themselves , this is not denied , but abundantly affirmed by T : D : and I : O : specially , who oft o're and o're tell us of a Voice of God by which he speaks so in all men , that there is no need of other witness to evince it , that its God that speaketh ; by which he reveals his Will , and that obedience which from us is eternally indispensably due to him , and abuudance more id genus , as abovesaid , then is fit or needfull here to be repeated● Only the case sticks here , whether this come from God only or from Christ also ( n●● as God alone , but ) as the true light of the World ? whether Christ be the Efficient , Fountain , Author , Cause of this universal light , that is confessed to be in common in all men , without exception of any ( unlesse Infants , and naturall fools . ) We say yea ; Christ the true light of the World is the Cause of all that M●ght , whereby anything of God is to be known by them , that is at all in any , or all men . T.D. & I.O. say no such matter ; they 'l fight with us before they 'l yield to that , that Christ as the Cause enlightens all men ; and we stand upon Iohn 1.9 . Out of that strong Hold I. O. draws nigh in a very audacious , daring way to storm us ; but behold , as T. D. in other cases , in ipso lumine , he stumbles at the threshold , before he euters the Garrison where our Guard is , he yields , falls down , and flatly consesses 't is so as we say , in the●e words which are his owns Christus lux est eodem sersu quo Deum lucem esse demonstravimus . &c. Christ is light in the same , sense as we have shewed God is light : * How is that ? Thou mayest read it , Reader abundantly in I. Os. 42 , 43 , 44 , 45 : p. where he shews how God enlightens , speaks in , shews himself and will , and their duty , even to all men in their own hearts and consciences . But what sayes he here ? Expresly thus , As God , so Christ is light , not only essentialiter in regard of his own Majesty , Holiness , Glory , but efficienter also , quatenus omnis lucis sons , &c. as he is the Fountain , Author , and Cause of All light , he is the light of men , that is the Cause of All light : So then I. O. before he comes to the fight upon the place , sides with us against I : O : and his fellow T : D : so farre , as in effect to argue thus , viz. Christ is the Cause of all light , there is none but what he is the Efficient , Author , and Fountain of , from whence it comes . But there is some light in every individuall man , therefore that light which is in , and where with every individual man is enlightned , is from Christ , as the Efficient , Cause , Fountain , and Author of it ; and this is like T. Ds. confession , that Christ enlightens every man that is enlightned at all : which is no lesse then to ●ay , all men without exception . Thus far hath I. O. confessed , and fail'd in his way to the attempt , and he had as good have lain still where he lay , as ri●e up again and fall ; yet up again he gets to the Text itself , and from that he assaults us , Andabata●um more , blindly , and in the dark , on this fashion . Non dicitur Christum , &c. J. O. It is not said that Christ enlightneth every man coming into the world , but that he coming into the world enlightens every man ; for which sense , besides the Latine Tongue , he all along assaults the Qua. in , he repeats it o're in Greek also . Rep. Itane ? Is it so I. O. indeed as thou sayest ? will it hold and carry itself clearly in thy own conscience , and singly , as in the fight of God , when thou readest the words in that order , wherein in the very Greek they stand in the Text , without shuffling and twinkling , that the Particle E●chomenon , coming , must relate to that word and Substantive that is furthest of all from it in the Text ; i.e. to To P●gs , and not to that which it immediately follows , and is joyned to , not only in order of place , but of construction ; i. e. to Panta Anthropo● ; that thou 〈◊〉 so positive and peremptory in putting that drossy guilded gloss upon that Scripture ? I do not deny but that Erchomenon Eis Ton Cesmon , if it stood as neer to To Phos , as it does to Panta Anthropon , might ( as to the Syntax ) as well agree with that , as its evident by the placing of it , it rather now agrees with the other ; were it En To Phos To A●ethinon Erchomenon Eis Ton C●smon O Photizei Pava Anthropon ; as it is Panta Anthropon E●chomenon , &c. I would say more then I will now , in way of yielding to thy meer will , which thou standst for , more then Truth in this matter ( howbeit , even then , as thou shalt see by and by , unless thou wilt still shut thy eyes , thou wouldst not have the strength of a straw more by it toward thy cause ) but as now it is , I summon thee from the Lord God , and in his Name and fear , to read it o're once more solemnly , as in his sight and fear , before thou have run thy full Career yet into condemnation , and see whether it sway not that way we say , and be not cogent in thy own conscience to the very contrary , as to the c●ooked construction thou makest of it ; being perswaded , that if prejudice have not already blinded thee well nigh perfectly to thy Perdition , that thou wilt rather consent to the sense wherein all Translators that ever I read of that Text into the English Tongue at least , and Expositors too ( unless some two or three , who with thy self in these dayes , have happened to find and insist upon that silly sense , and conceited crotchet against the Qua. ) do as one man agree to render it against thee , and with the Qua. viz. That was the t●ue Light which enlightneth every man coming , or every man that cometh into the world ; and if thou wilt be so blind and obstinate , as in thy malice against the Truth and Qua. to withstand the whole current of Translators and Commentators , whom thou canst not but commend above thy self ( as I veri●y believe not one of an hundred of those Schollars that are yet eminity to the Qua● will do with thee , for all that esteem thou would●t stand in for One among them ) yet what wilt thou get by the busness when all is done ? Wilt thou gain one grain of ground against us by it , if we should give and grant thee to read it thy own wrested way , as we will not ? Nay verily , though thou hast got nothing by thy naming of such a thing , but disadvantage to thy self many wayes ; yet we ( as thou shalt see ) who will loose as little as thou getrest , as to the cause in hand , shall improve it to our advantage against thee more wayes then one , or then thou who mostly makest more hast then good speed , a●nt well aware of ; and indeed , as men that meddle to mend old Kettles that are fit for nought , do oft , instead of stopping one hole , make two ; so hast thou by medling this way to mend thy bad matter against the Qua. made more work for thy patching self ; so that with all thy ●inking and thinking , thou wilt never fasten thy tackling ( which thou hast loosed by it ) so well , but that at last it will all drop to pieces . For first , Let it be noted down upon the score before all the world , how this I. O. rather then he will not maintain his malicious ends against the Qua. and the rich Gospel of Gods Grace , and true Doctrine of the universality of it , held out by them from God ( not in pretence , dissimulation , and mockage , as themselves do , saying , God offers life to all , but intends it only to a few , but in truth ) will maintain that the Translators most , if not every one of them that have translated the Scripture into English for the use of poor people , have done not only ignorantly and blindly , but abusively also , to the Text , and to this whole Nation to this day ; for if there be one English Bible throughout the Nation that reads it otherwise then thus , as the Qua. read that Text , viz. The true light which enlightens every man coming , or that comes into the world ; Let him that doubts go look it ; I here profess I never saw any of our Translations , which were done by as wise heads as I.O. that ever Englisht it his way . 2. He disparages the grave Doctors and Commentators that himself so much accounts on ; for Qui● legi● hae ? who reads and expounds as I. O. does ? vel duo , vel n●mo , some two , or none ; but none that ever I saw of any , either An●ient or modern Expositors , of any nore or credit among themselves . 3. And so still he preaches it out , how by the Doctors , Scribes , and Scriblers about the Scripture , the poor people ● and rich too of the Nation , that understand no● H●brew and Greek , are abused , nosed , gulled , and befooled , being fain to be of that Faith still about the Scripture , and sense of the Scripture it self , which is their Rule of Faith , as their Pha●isaical● Fathers are of , believing ( as they do at Rome ) as their Church , alias Clergy believes ; who , if they happen to be out ( as they are● seldome in , unless Out be In with them , as In is Out with T. D. ) the people , whose eyes all , as of one man , should be , as the true Israels are , Zach. 9.1 . toward the Lord , being towards their Spiritual Lordships the Clergy , do all as one man erre after them , and drop together in gross with their blind guides into the Ditch : And whereas all have hitherto ( following the old Interpreters , who say the truth with the Qua● . ) read that Text thus , The true Light enlightens every man that comes into the world ; they ( if I.O. may have his will against the Qua. ) must now read otherwise . 4. Suppose we should for Tryals sake ( and no otherwise will we ) grant thee that the Greek Text , in respect of the words , as they may be construed , may equally bear I. Os. construction , as well as that of the Qua. and of most or all Translators and Interpreters hitherto , does not this then overturn the whole business thou so much buslest for throughout thy book , viz. the Greek and Hebrew Texts , being such a sure , fixt , steady , stable , infallible , unchangeable , inalterable Rule , Canon , Measure , Touch-stone , Standard , for all Truth to be tryed by , and all Spirits , Lights , even that infallible one which gave it out , as well as any other , the infallible guidance of which thou deniest to be now in the world , or to be the stable Rule , Standard , or Direction about Doctrines , Duties , &c. for verily if it be so , as in some places it is confes● by me to be so far more clearly then in this ( viz. Iob. 5.39 . where Ereunate may be read either Indicatively , as a Complaint , Ye search the Scriptures , and look for life there ( which is Christs mind there ) or Imperatively , as a Command , Search ye ) that one and the same phrase in the Greek may bear ●ivers constructions , from which , being differently construed , according to mens meer different conceits upon them , may arise not only various 〈◊〉 ons and senses ( such as T. D. gives when he sayes , it is either 〈…〉 , of else perhaps it may be so , and the word or phrase may import so , and may imp●rt so , &c. up and down in his book ) but also such as are even contr● y , contradictory , and absolutely destructive one to another ; must not he then p●t out the eyes of men first , that makes them believe that which I. O. contends and spends himself throughout his whole Book about , that not the Light , Spirit , Word , and Truth of Christ in the Hearts and Consciences of men , nor any immediate Vision , or Revelation , of the old inalterable , infallible , eternal Will and Truth of God to man in his own heart , as he waits at Wisdomes gates , at Gods own Mouth for counsell , is to be the Rule , but such an uncertain , doubtful , fallible , flexible thing as an external Text and Letter , that may be , and is , turned twenty wayes , and made to stand even in one verse many wayes at once , according as men in their foolish , vain thoughts are minded to thrust it ? Art thou so benummed I. O. and hardened against this Truth , that the Light is the Rule , and not the Letter , that because the Quakers rell it thee , against whom thou art risen in wrath , therefore thou wilt not believe it , no not though preached to thee by thy own mouth , hand , and pen , as well as theirs ? Quid cum iis agamus qui cum revera sintadeo infeliciter stupidi ut nulla neque ratione neque experientia erudiri possint , quasi tamen ipsi soli superent , vanaperswasione siderati , in contemptu eorum quae non intelligunt audaciter persistunt , atque cum Comicoillo clamant , dicat quad quisque volet nos exhae opinione non dimo vebimur , Ex. 2 : S. 28. Read that to thy self I. O. if thou canst tell how , and see how thou loosest thy ground against us one way , while thou seekest to gain against us another way by thy extortion of the Text , and thy playing Legerdemane about the Letter . 5. Suppose we should ( as for tryals sake again we will , not otherwise ; for our Nay is stronger then thy Tea , as to this place ) give thee thy own reading of that Text wholly to thyself , Jet's see what thou canst make of it against the ●ue lights enlightning every man , which is the thing thou denyest , and wouldest disprove by it : Nempe To Pan , hoc est , vere nihil ; just as much , and not a jot mere then thou had ●● before : If thou wilt not read it the true way ; ●ake it then in thy own , and make thy best on'r : The true light coming into the world enlightens every man ; here is thy reading , which amounts not to one attome more against every mans being enlightned with the true light , then if thou quietly , without quarrelling with the Quakers , read'st it with them thus ; The true Light enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world : for it still proves , that every man in the world , since the true Lights coming into it , is enlightned by it : and all that thou thyself concludest and entailest at the end of thy tale about it , is no more then an exclusion of that part of the world that died before Christs fleshly coming into it , from being mentioned in this Text ; for so run the words of thy Conclusion ; ( Ex. 4. S. 24. Ad maximam ideo partem humani generis , quaescilicet ante adventum Christi in mundum fato functa fuerit , non pertinet haec assertio . ) Therefore to the greatest part of mankind , namely , such as died before Christs coming into the World , this Assertion appertains not . Repl. In which Assertion of thine , thou , according to the manner of Errour , which is a Quick-sand that , when men are once in it , sucks them in further , art sunk more over head and eares then before , considering thy meaning of thy own words : for how beit ( if rightly understood ) there are no men that ever lived or died in the World , who had a being in it before Christ and the true Light of the World , or Word , of which it is said , Iohn 1.1 , 2 , 3. It was in the beginning with God , and was God , and ( as God ) is not denyed by any of you to have enlightened all men from of old before that Juncture ye count from , and by which men and all things were made , so that without it not any thing was made that was made , in which was the life , which life was the light of men , which shineth in the darkness ( even the wicked , who are yet darkness ) though not comprehended thereby . Yea , to the Wisdome of God , 1 Cor. 1. That leads men in the way of righteousness , in the midst of the paths of Iudgement , that it may cause those that love it to inherit substance , and fill their treasures , was the very beginning of Gods way , was set up from everlasting , and in being when the heavens and earth were founded , and established , rejoycing in the habitable parts of the earth , and delighting in , and lightning the sons of men , ever since there were men , and blessing those that attended to him , Prov. 8.20 . to the end ; and in all ages entering into holy souls , made them friends of God and the Prophets , Wisd. 7.27 . And so thy Fancy and Falsity falls to the ground , who speakest as if Christ , as Christ , the Wisdom of God , and true Light of the World , did not enlighten any before that Ensa●co sun as thou speakest , or appearance of him in that flesh that died at Ierusalem , for he was in the being of a true light to the World , though slain as a Lamb in men from the very foundation thereof , and such as walk'd in the beames of that which came from him , came up to the sight of his day , and glory , with rejoycing , as Abraham and others did , Isai. 6. and was the Christ , or Anointed One of God , to the doing of his Work , and shewing of his Will in the World , before any Letter was written of him , and before he assumed to himself that outward appearance wherein he died ( or else how did Moses suffer the reproach of Christ in his dayes , who lived so long afore that body , ye only know him in , was born ? and how did Christ preach by his Spirit in Noahs dayes , if there was no Christ then come ? 1 Pet. 3.2 ) and was the same light that he now is to the world ; and so it is said in the Text thou so much talkest on , but that thou readest it at randome , as thou dost the rest ; for it s said , that was the true Light ( in praeterito ) which enlightneth ( in presents ) every man that cometh into the world , that which was the light before his coming in that flesh , that is the light which now enlighteneth ( as it did then ) every man , and that that it was it ever will be , O On , kai O En , kai O Erchomenos , Rev. 1.8 . he that before then was come , and then came , and is come , and comes , and is to come , from the beginning to the end , the first and last , the light of men , and life of such as will be lead by him to it , the only way for all that have life to walk in , whose light all they that hate , love death . Yet if it were so ( as God forbid , for then what became of not only the rebellious part of the world , but of Abell , Enoch , Noah , Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , &c. were it so ) as thou sayest , that to the greatest part of mankind , to wit , that whole part ( so thy words import ) that died before Christs coming into the World , which thou countest but from the period of some one thousand six hundred years upward , this saying , that the true light enlightens them , relates not : I wonder what light thou deemest then they were enlightened by , if not the true Light ? for God is the true Light , and the Spirit is the true Light , and if thy Letter were the true Light , which it rather only came from , yet those , who lived before that , had it not ; or were they enlightned with any accidental , false , corrupt light ? for such a One thou speakest of in the foregoing Section , saying , Christus est lux , non ill ● accidentalis & corrupta , de qua loquimur ; Christ is light , not that accidental , corrupt light , of which we speak ; where if by ( We ) thou meanest thyself and thy fellows , tell us what light that is ? but if thou mean thyself and the Quakers , what e're thou speakest of , I know no such Monster , as a corrupt light , that the Qua. either own or speak of , for they own and know no other light ( whatever may falsly pretend to that name of light ) then that which is pure , uncorruptible , and uncorrrupted . 2. However if no man till about one thousand six hundred years ago were enlightened by Christ the true Light , yet it 's enough for us that thou grantest every man to be enlightned by Christ the true Light since that time ; let them before stand or fall to their own Master , the Quakers call men to that Light they are now enlightened withall ; and that every man is enlightened by his coming into the world at that time , thou affirmest from the Text , taken thy own way , and dost not hitherto , in thy own interpretation of it , deny , though afterward thou denyest it with a witness , and T.D. too , who witnesse both to that same false sen●e upon the Text before hinted at , and now to come under consideration , and it is this : Ex. 4. S. 24. He horum verborum sersus est cum omnes homines essent merae tenebrae , &c. Tois ( quoth I.O. ) is the sense of these words , when all men were meer darkness , and blind to heavenly things , the Son of God , the eternal Word , the eternal Light coming into the world , sent the holy Spirit to enlighten Some of these men that were by nature darkness , and so was made the Light of them . Respondemus ideo ( quoth I.O. ) per omnem hominem non omnes & singulos intelligi debere s●d qu●s vis tantum , &c. hoc est Syncate gorema istud Omnis , non absolute , sed relate ad electos dicitur prout aliis locis innumeris usurpatur , &c. By every man , not All and every individual person must be understood , but Some only ; All is not spoken absolutely of All , but with relation to the Elect , as it is used in innumerable other places , Col. 1.6 , &c. And Ex. 4. S. 13. Christum non amnes & singulos sed quosvis tantum , hoc est electos , luce hac peyfundere atque salutariter illuminare ita certum est ex innumeris Scripturae Testimoniis , & emnium seculorum experientia , ut caecus sit opporret & omni spirituali intelligentia destitu●us qui contrarium vel unquam somniaverit : That Christ doth not with this divine light indue and enlighten All and every person , but some only , that is , the Elect , is so certain , from innumerable Testimonies of Scripture , and the experience of all Ages , that he must needs be blind and destitute of all spiritual understanding , that shall ever so much as once dream to the Contrary . And S. 17. Christus nulla sub consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & singulis ir dulsit . Christ under no consideration both vouchsafed Saeving light to A●l and every man. In these and the like expressions we have I.Os. both opinion in this point , and his sense on this place , and his meaning on this Clause ( every man ) and in all this T : D : joynes in one with him against the Qua. both as to the universality of the saving Light of Christ , whom God hath ( as the Qua. truly assert , according to Isai. 42.6 . 49.6 . ) given for a Covenant to the People , for a Light to the Nations , that he may be Gods Salvation to the ends of the earth : And the same strait-lacing , pinching , and particular sense he puts upon those most universal terms ( All ) and ( every man ) in that place , Iob. 1.9 . and many others , witness his Answer to R.H. who truly told him thus , the Scripture sayes , Everyman , and thou sayest , But some : Who shall be believed , Thou or the Apostle ? thou makest John a lyar : No such matter , quoth T.D. I make not the Apostle a Lyar , for the indefinite phrase hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere in the Scripture , Christ tasted death for every man , Heb. 2.9 . when as he died but for a certain number . And as for I. Tom and R. Baxt. ( which two heads that knock so hard against each other about Baptisme , make but one hasty head to push against the Qua. and the true Light , in that Book of I.T. publish't by R. Bax. ●●il'd . True Old Light Exalted , &c. many blind passages whereof are here animadverted , in which piece of work of theirs there is ( as there is in I.Os. ) not only Light , but more or less in one place or other all sorts of Light treated and tasted of , yet little or no Light at all found , but rather a meer mist of darkness ) these two ( I say ) are neither less bold , nor less blind , then the other two in their confused opposition of this eminent Truth , viz. the universality and sufficiency of Light or Grace from Christ in men to save them ( if they take heed to it ) from both transgression and condemnation , about which I shall ●et down so much of that their book , as whereby it may appear how far they are contradictory to the Qua. and then shew how all of them ( who yet speak out no other then the sense of the whole Brotherhood of the personal , particular Electionists , that deny the general love of God , and his gift of Saving Grace to all men ) are therein no less contradictory to the Truth : And for as much as R. Baxt. is found justifying of what ever is said by I.T. falsly in that foresaid book , I do R.B. no wrong in my judging them both for it in my Reply , if R.B. had not ( as he hath ) vented out his vehemency of blind zeal in his Epistle so ridiculously , as to excuse such as accuse him of ignorance and errour , in words enough of his own , for which I.T. not only mutually justifies him , but All-to-be-reverences him also , as R.B. does him , and most Divines do each other mutually , when they joyntly roar out their rude reasons against the Truth , though they rather tear and rend , then reciprocally reverence one another , when they open at each other about their own Opinions . To let pass then their unanimous impatient prittle-prattle against the Qua. as Popish , and promoting the Papists Interest , as savouring of Popery , Polagianism , Arminianism , Socinianism , page 36. and such like stuff and strange out-cryes , with which the Clergy ever fills poor peoples minds , to the rendring of them ill-affected to Friends of Truth , as Anti-Scripturisme , Enthusiasm , Fanaticism , &c. having dealt with I.O. and T.D. already about that trish-trash of our being Iesuits & Papists , * to which I refer them all , who , eodem cum idis herentes luto , found it out to the same tune against us in that and the rest ; Arminiana sunt omnia jamdudum profligata ; they are all Arminius his matters ( quoth I.O. ) Arminia● points ( quoth T.D. ) thus they stun mens minds , not knowing that Arminius ( though deem●d and doom'd an Heretick by that Divine and domineering denunciation of the Divines at D●rt ) was as no less learned , so full as holy and honest as themselves . Letting pass also abundance of other lyes and abuses of the Qua. * sundry of which call aloud for a Rod of as rough reproof as the rest have had , for the backs of both Tombs and Baxter , among which I shall here hint at no more then that of R. B. in his Epistle concerning Iame ; Nayler , which ( as he sayes ) is regardable , and so say I to R. Bs. shame , who so basely belyes Iames Nayler therein , representing those words at large , wherein I.N. renounces those unclean Spirits that are gone out , to the dishonour of God by many wild actions , from the unity of the Truth , and Light into which the Qua. are called , gathered , and in which they abide , as if therein I. N. had written a Recantation of all that ever he wrote against R. Baxter , and others , for the Truth held out by the Qua. and as if I. N. had for ever renounced the Qua. as unclean spirits , and Ranters , and such like ; when as its most evident to any but the blind , that as I. N. still iustifies the Truth and Light , and all the Qua. that abide in it , and to which by the Grace of God he now stands a true and faithful servant , so that his Recantation and Renunciation , is of no other then of that old Spirit of the Ranters , which makes head against the Light of Christ , condemning filthiness in every conscience , and Life of the Cross , which ( however many may turn away from , as they did of old ) yet many thousands of Qua. continue walking in to this day . But I say , passing by all I : T : and R : B : gross abusiveness of this sort against the Qua : of that Vniversal Light , and sufficient or saving Grace of God to all , which the Qua : testifie to , they assert thus ; Bax : Ep : p : 7 : Their great pretence , when they dishonour the Scripture , and the Ministry , is to lead men to a Light , or Word of God within them● and this is their cry in our Assemblies and our streets [ Hearken to the Light and Word within you ] and the sufficiency of this they clamorously defend , and accuse●us grievously for contradicting them , &c. So p : 34 : Out of the Principles of those men ( viz : Pelagians , Arminians , &c. ) these People ( meaning the Qua ) have drawn , their Tenet of an Vniversal Light in every man that cometh into the world , without Bibles , Preachers , Church-Communion , Christian Ordinances , to know his duty so as that he may be perfect , which is indeed the reviving of old Pelagianism , or worse , and tends to the making of Christian Religion , if not all Religion whatsoever unnecessary . Sol : 35 : 36 : by way of complaint against the Qua : they say , This is their conceit , that every man that cometh into the world , even the Gentiles that have not the Letter , yet have from Christ a Spiritual Light , &c. That every one hath a Light within him , or there is such Revelation imparted to every man in the world , that if he would use it , he might come to saving knowledge : This Vniversal Light is so magnified by G. Fox , that he tells us it shews all the ungodly wayes that ever a man hath acted in , with it a person will come to see Christ the Saviour of his Soul , from whence the Light comes to save him from his sin , it brings to Christ , to confess him , gives the knowledge of the God of the world that rules in them that are disobedient , this Light gives the knowledge of the Glory of God , the true knowledge of the Scriptures , its one in all , they that come to , and love it , come into fellowship one with another , out of this they are in jarrs and confusions , it lets see Sin that hath separated from God , and the Mediator , and the Kingdome of heaven , and lets men see they must be meek and humble , keeps from errour , guile , all distraction , distemper , drunken thoughts , imaginations , and a mans own reasonings ; it s the Gospel , the first Principle of pure Religion ; they that profess to believe the Scriptures , in God , in Christ , yet believe not in this Light , deny Christ ; and though they profess some of Christs and the Apostles words , yet none confess Christ , but who confess the Light ; that they who teach not this , are Teachers of the world , Antichrists , Deceivers , &c. the Letter , i.e. Scripture is not the Light , nor the Word : More to the same purpose is ( say they , and truly enough , say I ) delivered by G. F. Hubberthorn , and many more , insomuch that Fa●nworth saith , Loving the Light , it will guide you to God from all men , that ye need never look at man more . And page 37. They i.e. Qua. assert : 1 That there is a Light in every man : 2 That this is sufficient to guide them to God of it self : 3 That it is a Rule to shew duty and sin : 4 That there need no other teaching of man : 5 That this is one in all : 6 That it is the Gospel . This is the main prop of the new Antichristian Religion , or frenzy of the Qua. By all which its plain , that these Four do as one man withstand and resist this Truth the Qua. testifie , concerning the general love and Grace of God in Christ Iesus to all mankind , i.e. every individual man , in their above cited sayings , so far as to give them All any such measure of saving Light , as puts them but into a possibility for life , if they never so well improve it , and the universality of a Light in men , sufficient to save them ; or ( which is all one ) the sufficiency of that Light to save from sin , which is asserted by the Qua : to be in some measure given by Christ universally to all men . I shall therefore address my self to a little farther examination of what the Scriptures declare for , and our Four Divines , against the Truth of God in these particulars , whose oppositions of it are much what from the same grounds , and those no other then the same that are made use of by all personal Electionists , to push at that precious Doctrine of the general Love of God to the Whole World , in vouchsafing some measure , of no less then truly saving Grace universally to all , and every individual in it , or of Light , sufficient to lead to life such as follow it , to each particular person among mankind , so that not any perish for want of the Love of God and Christ to them , or of willingness in God and Christ to have them saved , or of true strivings of their Holy Spirit with them , to draw them from the way of death , or of Light sufficient to lead them out of that darkness that destroyes them , or of Power and Saving Grace given them from God to work out their own Salvation , or of Christ the Saviours dying for them , and offering himself a Ransome for every one , as well as any one , or of sufficiency in him to save such as come to God by him , or of true tender of life , peace , and Reconciliation with God to him , or of true purpose and intent in God and Christ to receive them to mercy , on condition of their repentance , or of space given them to repent in and return , or upon the account of any particular , personal P●●destination , or R●p●bation of them to condemnation per saltum , peremptorily , inalterably , before they were born , without reference had to impenitency in ungodliness foreseen , or upon any such like considerations , as our Divines hold forth , but meerly through their own slighting of that Love , resistings of the foresaid strivings , despising of the riches of that Grace , long-suffering , and forbearance , refusing to be led to Repentance by that Light , and by it to come to that Saviour from whom it comes , not turning at the reproofs of it , not improving the said Gift of the Power of God , and manifestation of the Spirit given to profit withall , not putting themselves forth according to the measure of it in them , but receiving it in vain , not trading with the Talent , but trifling away the acceptable time , the day of Gods Salvation , the day given to them , wherein the Lord would hear and succour them , not minding therein the things that make for their peace , till hid from their eyes : These , and such like , as fall out only on mans part , who remains in the Enmity , when God is in Christ reconciling , not imputing trespasses to the world , but as the world goes on obstinately therein , destroying themselves ( whilst in God still is or was their help , nevertheless , whether they hear or forbear , live or die , be saved or damned ) are the sole causes of mens destruction and perdition , who perish not at all according to the Will of God , desiring it should be so , if ( salva veritatis , voluntatis , immutabilitatis , & justitiae gloria , without violation to his Iustice , Truth , and purely good , and immutable will , which is , that the godly shall prosper , and the ungodly perish ) it may be otherwise , though yet permitting it so to be , when there is no remedy . CHAP , III. ANd this , that Christ died for all men , without exception , and God in him intends salvation to all , as truly willing they should have it , rather then not ( if in their own obstinate wills they withstand it not by refusing to return when he draws them ) as he truly tenders it to them , and hath of his own free Love and Grace impowered them , as well to receive it , if they will , as to reject it if they will , and vouchsafed them all some measure , though not the same measure of the true Light , which is sufficient to guide All that follow on to know him in it to that saving knowledge of himself , and Christ , which is Life eternal , is from the whole scope of Scripture as certain ( to him who is not blinded , with that Sorcerer that could not see the Sun ) as 't is that I : O : sayes ( falsly ) the contrary is certain from innumerable places of it ; out of which I argue , in proof of the foresaid Truths , as followeth . Argum. 1. If it were so certain ( as these men say 't is by their spokesman I : O : Ex. 4. S. 13 , 17. ) that God doth not savingly enlighten all and every man , but some only , i.e. the Elect ; that he must be blind , and void of all spiritual understanding , that dreames to the contrary , and that Christ in no wise vouchsafes saving Light to all and every man , nor any measure of that Grac● that is sufficient to save men , let them attend to it never to well , * then he could not say truly and honestly without a lye , * that this wayes are equall ; and as he lives he had rather the wicked should turn from his wickedness , and live , then die in and for it ; fith he might ( in a way of consistency with the unchangeableness of his unchangeable Decree . concerning the death of finall Impenitents ) put them , at least , into a capableness to chuse life , and possibility to come to it , if they would , as well as to chuse death , if they would , and thereby have shewed the equally of his wayes , in letting men have what they will , and as they do , yet would not do so much for them as that . But most certain 't is , that Gods wayes are all most equall , so as to let men have from him what they chuse ( viz. ) Life , and Good , and Blessing in Christ the Light , or Death , and Evil , and the Curse , in the deeds of darkness , when both are set before them , Deut. 11.26.30.19 : Isai. 66 : 3 , 4 : and as certain 't is that God so sayes as abovesaid , and truly wishes rather that the wicked , even those that do die , should turn and live , ( as else they cannot , ) but that they will not ; mark Ezek : 18 : throughout , and Ezek : 33 : v. 8 : to v : 21. Yea. O ( saith he ) that there were such an heart in them that they would fear me , &c. that it might be well with them , Deut : 5 : 29 : with a number more of the like wishes , Matth : 23 : 37 : Luke 13 : 44. Luke 19 : 41 , 42. And whatever God sayes or wishes , he doth it truly and honestly , meaning as he sayes , and is not such an Hypocrite , Lyar , and Dissembler , as T : Ds : Doctrine , of his tendring what he never intends . doth make him . Therefore he vouchsafeth to All and every man , even those that come to perish , but that they neglect it at some time or other , same measure of saving Grace , and a Light sufficient to lead them to Salvation . Arg. 2 : If God did not give at one time or other to all men such Grace , Liberty , Light , and Power , as is sufficient to bring them to life , if they will chuse the life , and well improve that Light and Power , to the working out of their Salvation , when he bids them , by it , then God could not to all men render life by his Ministers , nor say , Work out your own salvation , chuse life , that ye may live , else my soul shall chuse your greater destruction , without mocking of men in in their misery , before that time wherein he sayes , he will only , & may justly mock at their calamity ( which is only when they have filled up their measure of scorning at him , set at nought all his counsel , and utterly rejected his reproof , Prov : 1 : ) ( Si enim lumen seu gratiam salutarem suam dare omnibus Deus nolit , & tamen omnes ad salutem pervenire ( Sub poena ) requirit ; quid ni per talem gratiam millies mille miseros homunciones ludos facere ( absit blasphemia ) ●stimandus est ? ) Nay , nor yet without horrible cruelty , absurdity , and non-sense : For as much as it is no lesse then non-sensicalnesse , absurdity , meer mockage , and cruelty , for a Prince to say to a condemned helplesse Malefactor that is lock'd up in chains , ready to be led away to execution ( without affording him sufficient help so to do , and with much threatening of so much the worse torture and pain in his death , if he do it not , ) ● would not at all that thou shouldst dye , chuse rather to live , shake off thy chains , run from thy Guard that leads thee , save thy self , and here is a Pardon for thee ; but if thou dost not take this my counsel , thou shalt be tenfold more severely executed : Yea , it is against the very nature of choice , to lay two things before a man , saying , chuse which of these two thou wilt , and yet leave him under a necessity of taking the worst , and put him into no possibility of taking the other , but rather lay it utterly out of his reach , so that he must needs have the worst or neither : such choice ( as the Proverb is ) is no other then Hobson's choice , which is , chuse whether thou wilt have this or none . But it is certain , that God speaks in such wise , as aforesaid , by his Ministers to men , and it cannot be denyed by your selves ( unless you deny your own Doctrine ) for ye usually preach so in his Name to all men ; yea , could the whole World ( to use T. Ds : phrase in his Ep. 2 Pamph. ) be brought in the reach of your voices , ye would offer Salvation to them All , ( as much as ye seem to your selves to know , that God intends it only to a Few ) and would say , We ( as Ambassadours from God ) set life and death before you , Chuse life that ye may live , God would not have you die , Why will you die ? Work out your own salvation ( though ye ( falsly ) believe he hath wrought but in a few a sufficient Light , Grace , and Power , to will and de what ye calls them to ) turn your selves , and live , here is plenteous Redemption for you , else if ye do not , this call , warning , tender , fair proffer , shall be to you but the sorer condemnation : And yet God neither is non-sensicall , nor absurd , nor cruell , nor a mocker of men in their misery by his Ministers , till they have utterly set at nought all his councel , and finally rejected his reproof . Therefore God hath undoubtedly vouchsafed a measure of his saving Grace , and Power , and a light sufficient to lead them to life , if they use well , improve , they , follow , ●hat Eight , Power , and Grace , to all and every man. 3. If God have not sufficiently and savingly enlightned and impowred all and every man everywhere by such measure of that Grace of his , as may lead and enable them to act that Repentance which is to Life and Salvation , but some few only , i.e. the Elect ( which , according to your Principles too , are scarce one of a thousand in the world ) then he not only requires and commands utter impossibilities from most men , but also judges and punishes them most severely , yea eternally , for the not doing of that in their own persons , which he knows they neither can , nor in their own persons ever could do ; for asmuch as sub poena Iudicii , on pain of Iudgement and Condemnation at the great day of it by Christ , he , now at least , commandeth all men ( saith Paul , Acts 17● . 30 , 31. ) even everywhere to repent , and yet he knows , that without him and his Grace they can do nothing , all their sufficiency to will and to do good must come from him , and that his Grace , which in the least measure of it , is sufficient for them , and that he gath given but to very few ( though he requires of them , that have it not , to do what they only can do , that have it ) and to give it to the most he never intends it . But God does not command from most men ( though sinne●s ) utter impossibilities , and require of them with such rigour , as own pain of his doubling condemnation on them , the doing of that in their own persons , which he knows per se they neither can do , nor ever could ; for this were utterly inconsistent with that tender Mercy , exceeding great Love , Bowels of compassion , and true good Will , which the Spirit every where declares God heares to all Mankind , even in the Fall , to the World , even in its Enmity , who proclaims Peace , Reconciliation , Good will towards Men , ( An indefinite phrase aequivalent there to an universal ) incomparable Love to the World , though it perishes for hating that Light that is come into them , which he sends to save them : See and mark Luke 2 , 14. Iohn 3.16 , &c. Rom. 5 , 8. 2 Cor. 5.18 , 19 , 20. utterly inconsistent also with the truth of that professed willingness , that all should be saved , and come to the knowledge of the Truth , which only saves and makes free indeed , 1 Tim. 2.4 . and willingness that all should come to Repentance , and unwillingness that any should perish , 2 Pet. 3.9 . inconsistent ( as abovesaid ) with the equality of Gods wayes , and the integrity of those vehemently pretended wishes of his , that men would rather live then die , and with the sincerity of those sayings , that he would gather them into life , but they will not , Deut. 6.29 . Ezek. 18. Ezek. 33. Matth. 23.29 . Luke 13.34 . Since ( if our dim Divines Doctrine were true That he gives not to all Light and Grace sufficient to lead and save them , and Arbitrium ( vel lib●rum , vel liberatum ) a liberty , a power , to chuse , to will , to do , what he requires to work out their salvation , as he sayes he does , Phil. 2.13 , 14. of his own good will and pleasure , to which only belongs the glory therefore , and not unto us , of the salvation so wrought out by us ) the case is clearly otherwise then Go● sayes , for men might be put ( at least ) in possibility of living by such Grace , Light , and Power , if God had given it , but he would not . And lastly , This would make God like to , or worse then Pharoah himself , whom he plagued for the self-same cruelty and tyranny , even a rigorous Requirer of men with many and sore stripes , yea on pain of his eternal Wrath and Vengeance , to make Bricks without any allowance at all of any straw , fit for such a purpose , an austere man , a hard Master , a tyrannical Task-master ( as the idle , unprofitable Servant falsly represented him ) that looks to reap where he never sowed , and to gather where he hath not strawed ; that calls , on perill of perishing for ever , for a crop of Good works from those hearts , wherein he never sowed the Good Seed of his own Word ; Fruits of the Spirit from such Souls , into which he never sent his Spirit , from whence only they can grow up ; a walking in that Light of the Lord , ( which is said to be given , not to condemn them , but that through it they might be saved , under penalty of being condemned for not walking in it ) when yet not the least beam of that saving Light was at all vouchsafed them , but a Light of another sort ( as our Seers say ) which could never have served their ta●n so as to have saved them , had they attended never so strictly to it , but only Gods turn against them , so as to damn them further , and leave them without excuse , and excuse him in his condemning them : Finally , a growing in that saving Grace of God , on pain of condemnation , for turning it into wantonness , and receiving it in vain , which was never received at all by them , because not at all given them of God , from whom the most have nothing ( say our silly Sophisters ) but a certain common , high-way , insufficient G●ace , to know God , or do good by , that accommodates them that have it in their hearts , to serve God acceptably by it not at all , and therefore not half so well as the stubble did the Israelites to make brick withall , which they gathered instead of straw ; which Divinity of our Divines yet ( howtrue soever they deem it ) is but a turning of G●ds Gospel , Grace , and Truth , upside down , and is esteemed of him and his no better then dirt and Potters clay , and is utterly contrary to the Wisdome of God in Scripture , which justifies him still , as accepting every man according to what he hath , or hath had , and not expecting ( much lesse with rigour exacting ) of any man , according to what from him he neither hath , nor never had ; as requiring from men no otherwise then according to what is committed to them , which is one Talent , some true saving Light within at least , even to him that hath least , which , if he be faithful in it , though but a little , shall lead and let him ( de Iure ) into the Masters joy , if neglected , shuts him out into the outer darkness : Yea God calls for no more from any man , then improvement of his own money , that he commits to him to trade with , which money , if every one put into the bank , that the Lord at his coming may receive but his own , with the use thereof , and increase in the same kind of Grace that he freely gives , he will never enter into judgement with them to condemnation . Therefore undoubtedly God hath sufficiently and savingly enlightned and impowered all and every man every where , by such measure of that Grace of his , as may lead and inable them to act that Repentance , which is to Life and Salvation . Arg. 4. If God have not vouchsafed some measure of sufficient and saving Light to all men , then its either the Children of the Light that believe in it , who have it not , or else the Children of the darkness that believe not in it ; but both they who believe in it , and so are the Children of it , and they who believe not in it , and are not the Children of it , have it ; That the first have it , none do deny ; and that the second sort have it , is most evident to all ; but such Children of the night , as neither believe what the Letter sayes of , nor what the Light it self shews concerning it self within themselves , sith Iob. 12. Christ sayes to such as were not yet the children of it , but of the darkness , because though 't was in them , they were not believing in it , but walking besides it , in the deeds of darknesswhich it condemns : While ye have the Light , walk in the Light , believe in the Light , that ye may be the Children of it , which over-turns that profoundly , bottomlesly deep , and groapably dark imagination , which is I. Os. and T. Ds. who in their muddy minds make no difference between the Lights being in men , and mens being in it , the Kingdomes being in men , & mens being in it ; whereas it was in the Pharisees , who never came into it . Of I. Tombs , and R. Baxt. also , who page 44. in the fift of those thirty thredbare Argum. there urged by them against the true Lights enlightning all and every man ( which all must come to Iudgement by and by ) cloudily confound these two so distinct businesses into one ; viz. to have the Light , and to be the Children of it ; saying , ( with as great confidence , as small consideration ) That to be a Child of Light , is all one , as to be a person that hath Light in him , to guide him so as to please God ; when as all the children of the darkness ( in which the true Light is said to shine ) though the darkness ( viz. I. Os. T. Ds. I. Ts. R. Bs. and other dark hearts comprehends it not , Ioh. 1. ) have , if not a Letter without them , yet ( which is more ) light in them to guide them to please God ( de Iure ) and to tell them when they displease him ( de facto ) as the Letter does not , which shews men what they have done , should de , and be , but no men ( as the Light does ) what they have done , do , and are ; but the Children of the Light are not all that have the Light in them , for all men have it , though ill men hate it , and ( because it condemns the evil deeds they love , and are loath to leave ) condemn it , love the darkness more then it , whereupon it is , though , as from God , intentionally their Salvation , yet actually their condemnation , Iohn 3.16.17.18.19.20.21 . &c. but all and only those who are actually led and guided by it , who are , and walk in it , as it is in them , and as God is in it , guiding them into the way that 's well-pleasing in his sight , and into fellowship and acquaintance with himself , 1 Ioh. 1.7.8 . These I say are the Children of the Light , who are justified by it , by whom also it is justified , while the world condemn it , who are condemned by it , as Wisdome is justified of her own Children . Therefore God hath undoubtedly vouchsafed some measure of sufficient Light , or Saving Grace , to All men . Arg. 5. If any have not , some measure at least , of this saving Light , it must be either the Reprobates that are rebellious against it , or the Heathen ( as ye call them , who are in name Christian , in nature as Heathenish as they ) which have not any Letter without , nor knowledge of Christ Iesus after the flesh ; for yourselves , who name the Name of Christ , and so think ye are Christians , would deem your selves disparaged , if we should say , they have that Light ye have not , and ye cannot deny but true Christians that obey it , and depart from the iniquity it condemns , must much more have the gift of 〈◊〉 saving Light and Grace , if the Rebellious have it . But the very Rebellious ( though they improve it not , and so dwell in a dry land , and find not the green pastures the Sheep of Christ feed on , who hear his Voice , yet ) have this gift of saving Grace , by Christ the Mediator received for them , and vouchsafed to them , by the leadings of which , if they follow it , they may come to witness the Lord God dwelling in them , Psal. 68.18 . Yea Iob 24.13 . If the Rebels against the Light had it not shining in them in that time in which that was spoken , which ( as is generally judged , was before any of your Scripture was written ) they could not be said to rebell against it : And beside , to the rebellious and gainsaying people in Israel , God says , what should , or could I have done more for them , that I have not done ? which he could not have said in the iudgment of Reason it self ( as much as he had done for them , in giving them an outward Scripture ) if he had not vouchsafed them withall , some measure of that Light and Grace , which is only able to guide men that improve it to Salvation , for less then so much could not put them into so much as possibility of Salvation , for all their Letter , and in all Reason he should have put them at least into a possibility of it by a Grace sufficient ( if improved ) to bring them to it , or else all he did for them beside , was little worth , or worse then nothing to them , and he had not done enough on his own part toward their deliverance from damnation , let them have put forth themselves never so far , but rather that which ( according to your principles ) must unavoidably tend to their sorer condemnation , but doing that , and putting them by the gift of his own Light , Grace and Power , into a capacity to work out their own Salvation ( whether they would walk in that Light , or not walk in it , improve that Power , gift of Grace , or not improve it ) he would be clear of their blood , and their miscarriage on their own part , and they perish on the score of their own putting the Salvation of God far from them , when he brought it nigh them , and as he might truly say , what could I have done more then I have done for them ( unless I shall force them to live whether they will or no , and so change my Decree unchangeable , which is to put men again by my Grace , by my Son , whom I give to be my Light to the Nations , and my Salvation to the ends of the 〈◊〉 , into a posse peccare , and posse non , at least * a liberty and power to abuse life or death , when I set the way of both before them , and then leave them , ad libitum , to imbrace which they please ) so they in all reason could expect no more , it being pitty enough to provide meat and set it before poor perishing men , though one do not put it per force into their mouths , when they are capable to feed themselves ; and if any , when they are made videre meliora , will deteriora sequi , and needs take the wrong way , which they know to be the worst , and its end to be death , when not only the Right is shewed them , but they will'd , and wish't , and enabled to walk in it , that they may live thereby , as to be in Potentia ad actum , to have from Free-grace the power to chuse life or death , is grace enough to condemned men ; so to them that chuse to die , no wrong is done , fith Volenti non sit injuria . Besides , the Wisdome of God it self is said , Prov. 1.21 &c. to call very Scorners that delight in scorning , fools that hate knowledge , and love folly , to turn at her reproof , promising more and more to poure out her spirit on them , and make known her words to them , they hearkening to her reproofs , who talks with them in their beds when they awake , and by the way , &c. otherwise 't is the turning away of the simple from her teachings , not being without her teachings that slayes them . And as for the Heathen , how they have that which is to be known of God ( even enough as to their Salvation ) manifest by God himself within them , and not only the Wrath of God against all their ungodliness , but also the Righteousness of God revealed from heaven , even by him that speaks from heaven in their own hearts , so that they both know God in some measure ( though not liking to retain the knowledge of him in them , nor glorifying him as God , answerably to what they know of him , their foolish hearts are darkned , and they given over to vileness ) but also know the Iudgements of God , that the things they do are worthy of death ; as also , that Life and Peace from God , should be to them in the contrary , and so are condemned , accused , and without excuse , when they sin , as well as cleared , accepted , justified before God within themselves when they do well , by the work of the Law of God written in their hearts ; by which , though they have not the Law in Letter , or a literal Copy of it , as Professors have , whom they will Iudge , and be justified before , for all the Professors boasting , if they do the things contained in the Law , as it s written in their consciences , and much more to this purpose ; is so clear to them that in the Light with any solid understanding , and not in their own benighted minds , and prejudiced spirits against the true Light , which the Letter points to , read the first and second Chap. of Paul to the Romans thoroughout , that all the Objections , to the contradicting of this Truth we ( even thence ) plead against them , made by our hasty opposers , will appear to be but Obulaty sticks and straws , reeds and rushes , when ( as anon we must ) we come to examine them : Therefore the premises well considered , it will plainly appear , that some measure at least of that saving Light and Grace , which is sufficient to lead such as follow it unto Life , is vouchsafed to all and every man. Arg. 6. If Christ the Saviour , and the Salvation of God it self , be a Common Salvation , given in Common to All and every man without exception , so that All that will may have it , then that sufficient saving Light that leads to it , and the gift of that Grace of God that puts men into a power and possibility to work it out to themselves , brings it to them , and ( being not neglected , but improved ) brings them to it , must be given also in Common to All and every man , else it cannot be said properly , they are in posse to it , or so much as that they may have it : But the Salvation of God is freely given in common to All men , so that every man who will may have it : else God ( who means as he sayes , and mocks not most men in such cruelty , as to say to them whom he knows are lockt up , so that they cannot come at it ( unless loosed by him who yet never intends to loose them ) here 's Salvation , here 's plenteous Redemption for All you sinners , which I would you should All have without respect of persons ; Take it who will freely , as 't is freely tender'd , else far greater vengeance shall fall on you , then if I had never been gracious to you , for refusing my rich Grace and Goodness which I would have had you enjoyed , but you would not ) would not utter his mind with so many strong and serious Asseverations , Complaints , Commands , and seemingly compassionate C●mpellations , by which to take all scruples away , and put his great and true love to them out of doubt , as he does ; saying , Look ye unto me , and be ye saved , all ye ends of the earth . Behold my Servant , I g●ve h●m a Light to the Nations , to be my Salvation to the ends of the earth . Ho every one that thirsteth , come ye unto the waters , and he that hath no money come , yea come , and buy wine and milk without money and price . Hearken unto me , and let your souls delight in farness , hear and your souls shall live , Why will ye die ? turn and live ; Chuse life that ye may live . The Spirit a●d the Bride say come , and let him that is athirst come , and whoever will , let him c●me and take of the water ●f life freely . The Son of man is c●me to seekout a●d save that is lost : I am came , that they might have life abundantly : Ye will not come to me , that ye might have life . He hath laid help on One that is mighty , who is able to save to the utmost , all that come to God by him : Him that cometh unto me will I in no wise cast out : In the Lord is compassion , and with him is pl●nteous Redemption . Let the wicked forsake his way , the unrighteous his thoughts , and turn to the Lord , for he is gracious , and to our God , for he will abundantly pardon ; he is long suffering , not willing any should perish , but that All should come to repentance , wills that All should be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth : God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believeth in him may not perish , but have everlasting life ; for he sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved : He that believeth shall not be condemned , but he that believeth not is condemned already , because he believeth not on the only begotten Son of God. This is the gift that he hath given us , eternal Life , and this Life is in his Son ( the Light : ) He that believeth not makes God a lyar because he believeth not the testimony God gives of his Son ; In him is life , and his life is the light of men , and the light shineth in the darkness , but the darkness comprehends it not He came ( A Light ) into the world , and the world knew him not . This is the true Light , which enlighteneth every man that comes into the world . Glory be to G●d on high , on Earth peace , good will towards Men. Glad tydings of great joy , which shall be unto All People , to you is born a Saviour , which is Christ the Lord , the One Mediator between God and Men , Iesus , who gave himself a Ransome for All , who died for All , & by the Grace of God tasted death for every man. God commendeth his love to us , in that when we were sinners Christ dyed for us , dyed for the ungodly , justifieth the ungodly ( i.e. from , not in sin ) the Saviour of the world given as Gods witnesse to people , a Leader and Commander to people ; if any man sin , A Propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole World , in whom God was reconciling the world ( his enemies ) by his blood to himself ; not imputing trespasses to them , that will not persist in their enmity , giving out a Ministry of this reconciliation , by whom , as by Embassadors for God , men are besought in Christs stead to be reconciled to God , who made him sin who knew no sin , that we might be made the Righteousness of God in Him ; The Wisdome of God , that cryes out ; How long ye scorners will ye delight in scorning , simple ones love simplicity , fools hate knowledge ? Turn at my reproof ; I will pour out my Spirit upon you , make known my words unto you : Wherefore is a prize put into the hand , of a fool , seeing he hath not a heart to make use of it ? Because I call , and ye refuse , stretch out my hands to a rebellious and gain-saying people , and no man regardeth , but ye set at naught all my counsel , will none of my reproof ; I also will laugh at your ca●amity , and mock when your fear cometh , when your fear cometh as desolation , and your destruction as a whirle-wind ; when distresse and anguish cometh upon you , because ye hated knowledge , and did not chuse the fear of the Lord ; for the turning away only of the simple slayes him : And this is the condemation ( nothing else irrecoverably ) that light is come into the world , and men love darkness more than Light , which is come into them to save and lead them to l●fe , because their deeds are evil : But who so hearkneth to me shall dwell safely , and shall be quiet from the fear of evil . And a number more like to these , of solemn Compellations , Complaints , Counsels , Consolations , Compassions , Wishings , and wouldings ; Adju●ations , Corrections , Condemnations , Intreaties , Threatnings , Perswasions , poured out to All Men , the most , even a thousand to one , of which are personally , peremptorily predestinated , never to have none of all this Good , nor Life , nor Salvation , nor the least dram of any such Grace , Power , Light , as may be of any efficacy , or have any sufficiency in it , but a common Grace only , that hath nothing but insufficiency in it ( u●cunque et aetendatur , howsoever attended to ) to bring them to it . Is all this talked out to men bolted out from it all before ever they were born , by an absolute Decree , for the personal transgression of one individual man , and pre-ordained to have their portion in manifold more wrath and condemnation , for refusing to come to God when they were called , but never capacitated by any measure , of such Light and Grace , by which only they can possibly do ought that is required ? Is all this openly , as from the true , mercifull God , meerly tendred in hypocrisie to millions of miserable sinners , to whom it's never intended , that they must and shall come within the bounds of so much as a possibility of it ? nor have so much as Arbitrium Libertatum , a Liberty lent them to take or refuse , but he kept down under a certain necessity of perishing , contracted to them ( as is supposed ) from one single sin of one , whom they never chose to be their Proxy , and Representative of their persons to God , so as that they would live or die for ever , as he should stand or fall , from whose loīnes , it 's doted by our dreaming Divines , that there is drawn and derived such ( by them ) inevitable damnation upon all individuals , that for want of a sufficient Light and Grace vouchsafed them to lead them out of it , to escape it ( as the Four men aforesaid intimate to us ) the most must necessarily , unavoidably , unalterably ( as by Gods particular private Decree , without reference to their finall rejection of God first ) sin from the Womb to the Tomb , that they may , by filling up their measure , become vessels of wrath fit for destruction , and ( upon account of that personal Decree still concerning them ) not so much as possibly escape the condemnation of Hell ? Must the most on the account of no Saviours dying for them , but for a very few only , never see the Lords Salvation ? and yet be alwayes called upon to look to him for it , and told that Christ died for them , and have the Salvation tendred to them in the Name of God , and be injoyned to believe he died for them , for whom ( on their principle of Christs dying not for all , but the Elect only , which with these men are but very few , one of a thousand in the world ) its a thousand to one whether they be of that small number he died for , yea or no ; and yet for not b●lieving that viz. each person that he died for h●m , when he died but for some , all must be condemned , even because they believed not on him , for that 's the cause of All Iudgement and Condemnation to the world that perishes for sin , Iohn 3. I●hn 16. even because they believe not in me ( saith he ) who enlightens all that come into it : Must the glad tidings of great joy , that a Saviour is born , be proclaimed as glad tidings to All people , when he is intentionally sent to save but some few , and all the rest must hear the sad tiding● of a certain s●●er condemnation , then if he had never come into the world at all , because they believe not in him still , that he died for them , for whom yet he died not , if he died for none , but such a few as these men call the Elect ? What a strange uncouth representation of God and Christ in their great goodness , multitudinous mercy , inconceiveable kindn●ss , large love , rich grace , good will , tender bowels , incomparable compassion to the whole world , is this of these men ? what a most grievous kind of Glad tidings of great joy concerning a Saviour to All people is this , that he died to save one of a thousand , but a thousand to one are remedilesly , and more inexcusably , irrecoverably , unavoidably , incontroulably , and intolerably destroyed , by occasion of his dying for every man , then if he had never died for any man at all ? tell me , O ye narrow mouth'd old Bottles , that vent out so much of the old wine of your own wisdome , and Sent so sparingly of the new : Suppo●e a thousand of you were sentenced to die , were it a way to shew the mercy of the King to be matchlesly more then his severity ? And would you count him gracious to you all , and deem it Glad ridings of great joy , that is so truly to you All , to have a Pardon tendred to you all on terms imp●ssible by you to be performed , but intended really but to one of you ; so that the benefit of it shall effectually extend to but one , and that in such a way as shall occasion the more severe execution of all the rest , when 't is in the Kings Power , if he be minded , to shew the riches of his mercy to be beyond his severity , to save 999. and execute but one as an Example ? were the other a Common Salvation to them all ? But I say the Salvation of God is Common to all and everyman , what ever these men say , and even intended as truly , as it is tendred and proclaimed to All , or el●e God , who cannot lye , would never so proclaim it , nor his Spirit stile it a Common Salvation , as he does , Iude 2.3 . Therefore much more common is that saving Grace and Light , which brings it to All men , and All to it , who walk in the teachings and leadings of it , or else it could no more be Grace , Gospel , Good news , Glad tidings to All people , as it is , but Sad tidings truly to the most ; whereupon it is said of it by such Ministers as sought to magnifie it of old , as much as our churlists modern Ministry-seeks to minifie it , to be saving Grace to All men , though all are not actually saved by it , Tit. 2.11.12 . The Grace of God that bringeth Salvation to all men , hath appeared ; as it could not be said to do , if Christ under no consideration had vouchsafed it to All , but to some only , ( as I.O. ) and the salvation it brings in a true tender to All men were intended only to few ( as T.D. diminatively declares of it . ) Yea in a word , as Grace were no Grace to that man to whom it s given , if it were not saving or sufficient ( he using it ) to save him . So saving Grace is no saving Grace , and so no Grace nor glad Tydings of great Ioy at all to All people , as 't is call●d , though it bring Salvation where it is , if it appear to be given , and to appear only to a few : Besides , your selves tell vs of a Common Grace , which is vouchfased to All men . But Friends , a few words with you , and to all you Followers and Fainers of this Fantastical piece of meer falsity , not to say foolery , who in the night ( while men sleep ) dream out this dark and Grace-darkning Doctrine of Divinity , which , with the abundance of Absurdities and Confusions that are concatenated to it , make up such an incredible kind of Creed , such a Braky messe of Belief , such a Lab●rynth of lightlesse Literature , such a Wilderness of wondrous Wisdome , as no wise men , nor any ( but such drunkards of Ephraim , as lie ( like Briars and Thornes ) enfolded together in one false Faith , that at last they may be consumed as stubble fully d●y ) can find any other then a winding way into , nor when he is in , any other way easily out of , but that of the Spirit of God , which searcheth and traceth out all the twinings and turnings of the Serpent upon his Rock . Are you not yet ashamed ( the night being so far spent , as it is in England , and the day so nigh at hand to them that watch for it ) to appear upon the stage ( ye may well say , not without a Blush , as T.D. does ) before the world , with such a Gospel of glad Tidings to it , and all Mankind in it , as this , That God loves all mankind , wills not ( unless they will ) the death of any of them , nor of any sinners , but had much rather they should turn from their wickedness and live , and would have them all come to repentance and life , and not any to perish , but all to come to the acknowledgement of the Truth , that in it ( unless they hate and turn from it , and then his Justice and Wrath hath place to shew it self to so many persons ) they might be saved ; and hath sent Salvation among them in his Son , the Light of the World , and Word of Life ; not bolting or excluding any from it , but such as put it away from them , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of eternal Life , and Bath so loved the World , as to send his only Son into it , to such as were else lost , and likely else to perish , not to condemn them further , but to save them ; even ( qua sic ) as lost , so consequently all men ( quatenus ipsum , ever including de omni ) from condemnation , or that , alias , to that end , intent , or purpose , that ( unlesse , against his honest , true , sincere wishing and woulding otherwise , they needs will ) they might not perish , but have everlasting life : and so loved men also , as to send his Messengers among them to make universal Proclamations of his large love to all mankind , and in his name to publish glad Tidings of great Ioy , even to All people , and the good will of God toward men ( An indefinit phrase in a necessary matter equivalent to an universal ) and to call to every one that will , to take of the water of life freely , without exception of any positively , personally , or nominatim , who exclude not themselves by their own personal unbelief of his Love to them , and refusal to come , and without accounting any unworthy of his Supper , but such as come not when call'd , and put not on the wedding Garment , which renders them ( as taking away all their sins , guilt , and filth ) beloved , accepted , pure , and justified in his sight , as well as fit and meet to come into his holy presence , as by their own righteousnesse that they work , and not Christ in them , they are not any more then by unclean things dung , losse , and filthy rags ; and send out Hue and Cry also , to summon all in to himself , and blown a Trumpet too , even to All people to come and welcome , promising ( to the removing of all obstacles and and objects of discouragement , and giving good ground of hope to every man ) that there is mercy with God for him , whatever his sins have been , if he come in time , before the dore be shut , and while God calls , and woes , and knocks at the dore of his own heart within , by the motions of his Spirit , that he will receive all comers , and though they have r●n a whoring from him , after many other Lovers ( and few men will receive their wives again , that so do ) yet returning he will receive them , so that whoever comes to him he will in no wise cast out , but as he hath sent his Son a Propitization for the sins of the whole World , and provided plenteous Redemption , and purchased Salvation by his blood sufficient for them All , so that he is able to save to the uttermost , and will too , effectually , All that come to God by him ; and that it is his will they should All come also , and reveals and publishes it as his will too , expostulating very angrily with all men too , for despising the riches of his Grace , for not being led to repentance in the day of his long-suffering and salvation by his goodness , telling them he waits upon them , that he might be gracious to them ; saying , O that thou wouldst hearken to me that thy peace might be as a River , wilt thou not be made clean ? ( for thus cry out Clergy to All people where they preach ) when shall it once be ? Why will ye die people ? I have no pleasure in it that ye should , and if any do , I delight not in the death of him that doth , but that he will , and there is no remedy , unless I alter my unchangeable will ( as I will not for mans wills sake , fith I have done so much for him already , that he may be saved , unless he chuse to perish ) which will of mine is , that the soul that sins , and turns not from his wickedness , that he may live , shall die for ever , and the very wicked , turning from his wickedness , and doing right , shall not die , nor yet have his sins mentioned , unlesse he turn back from his righteousnesse into sin again , and then be must die ; and though I forgave him before , yet he taking his fellow servant by the throat after , I must lay him up for the whole debt : Wherefore why , why will ye die , turn , turn your selves and live , and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling , for I have done my part , a friends part , towards you , I have wrought in you both to will and to do , of my free grace , of my good pleasure , it wants but your putting that into act , which I of my free Grace have put into your power , and your willing and doing accordingly , and your getting up , and trading with your Talent and turning to the light that I have entrusted you with , and reprove your evil deeds by ; will ye alwayes resist my holy Spirit , when it moves in your hearts , and be stiffe-necked , and stubborn ? Turn yon at my reproof , though ye are fools , scorners , delighting in scorning , and I will pour out my Spirit upon you , and make known my words to you ; if not , as I call and ye refuse , so the time will be , ye shall cry , and I will not bear you , because ye did not chuse the fear of the Lord , would none of my counsel , set at naught all my reproof , which otherwise you should have found to have been the way of life : I am in Christ reconciling the world to my self , not imputing trespasses ; and I have sent out a Ministry to declare this my Reconciliation to the world , as concerning all that 's past , if they now do not 〈…〉 and abide in enmity , I am friends , unless they will needs fight on , and fight it out with me to the last , and then they will have the worst 〈◊〉 I have made him sin , that knew none , that they might be righteousness , who are yet in their sins ; I have given him a Ransome for All , and he hath offered himself , and died for All that were dead in their sins , and tasted death for every man : Now then hear my Embassadors that pray you without , as in my Sons stead , who also himself by his Spirit strives with you to the same end within , that ye would be reconciled to God ; and having those promises , and received so much Grace as brings Salvation with it to such as despise it not , receive not this precious Grace of God * in vain ; but ●korse your selves from all uncleanness of 〈◊〉 spirit , perfecting Holiness in the fear of God : I have dra●n you with the cords of my love , ye will perish if ye refuse to return . I say are ye not ashamed to go out , as from God ( in whose name yet I am sure ye never went with the Doctrines that here under follow ) to publish to all people , as Ambassadors from him , his so large love , and the great and wonderful things that he doth for the whole Creation of mankind , saying , What can he do more for you ( People ) the he doth , unless you will have him violate his own unchangeable will for your sakes , and save sinners in sin , which he hath decreed never to do , as irrevocably as he hath never to refuse such as come to him when he calls , and hath enabled them thereunto . And yet after all this good news , glad tidings to the whole world , offers of a Gospel of Salvation to all people , as far as ye are able to proclaim them , then to come in with such cold comfort again upon them as this , and put such a Bit into peoples Iaws , and bridle on their mouths , ●●nsing them to erre , so as to go Round , and tell them , that of a truth , and for truth they must take it from them and believe it as an Article of their Faith , as O●b●dox Doctrine , that they are Heretical if they deny it ; viz. that though ye thus largely tender and offer Salvation from God to them All , without exception , on condition they come , and so , that if they come they shall be accepted , and there 's Grace , Mercy a Saviour and Salvation for them in Christ , in whom they are All to believe , even every mothers child of them for himself , that it s there for him , that he died for him , and is his Saviour ( which is the only good news to individuals , and to the universal world of mankind also for it s no glad tidings to a thousand to one in the World to hear that Christ will save some one of a thousand among them , and damn All the rest , or All the rest he is preached to ( doubly ) by his coming into it , because they believe not in him , who yet was never given for them ) and this on pain of double condemnation . And though ye reveal this to them as the Will of God , yet there 's no such matter of Vniversal Love or Salvation intended to them All , as ye tender , extend , talk of , proclaim , and offer from God to them All ; but his Will in secret is otherwise then ye say , these proffers are to another purpose then to this intent , that they All , or half of them either , or any but a very few of them should have it , even but to leave men the more in sorer condemnation ; though ye bid All come and welcome , yet All can't come , nay , none without God , who calls , give his Saving Grace ( that 's true enough ) and most can never come for want of that Saving Grace , for want of a sufficient Light to lead them , which Grace and Light they want also , upon no other account , then because God never did , nor never intends to vouchsafe it them ; and that he hath a reserve in his mind , a certain secret will within himself , not known to man , which runs otherwise then his revealed wil does that ye declare , even a secret purpos ( which yet as secret as 't is , ye it seems pretend to know it , and must be babling about it , to the shaming and contradicting your selves i th' t'other ) even to give this Salvation but to a certain small number in comparison of the rest whom from Eternity he hath Reprobated , and purposed personally upon Adams score , shall go without it ; which sin of that single man shall so remain on the score with him for ever , that upon the account thereof , a thousand to one of mankind his posterity ( though yet he would ( in words ) shew himself more rich in mercy to them All , then severe to take advantage against any , ●o as to have it told thus in universal terms , that his Son died for them All , for every man , the whole world , &c. ) should be left without any interest or share in it , or potential title thereunto ; and howbeit he will have them all call'd to come and lay hold on it , and promises made of Life to them , on condition they come , and believe in his Son , and his love to them in him , yet he so hates them ( personally ) before ever born , or doing good or evil , that they shall never from him be sufficiently impowered to come or believe ( as he could impower them if he so pleased ) nor be put into any capacity by him to ch●se the Life , though set before them , as well as the death , with a chuse life that ye may live , but be left for want of a will , set at any liberty to chuse the good , under a necessity of having the evil , and to chuse either that or none , and yet if they do not chuse the good too , that advantage shall be taken the more against them to double vengeance on their heads , for that ( helpless ) unavoidable fault of refusing the good , and a quarrel pic●t against them ( upon the account of the old intended praeterition ) and so double execution be done upon them now as rebellious against the Gospel of Gods Grace , whereby he would ( in words , alias , seemingly , though secretly he never would , nor intended it ) have saved them , and for not believing in his Son as theirs , when yet he left them lockt up when he call'd on them to believe , so fast , that he knew they could not answer , and would not so much as un●o se them neither , to see if they would accept his love , believe , repent , and make use of the remedy , yea or nay , in whom also if they had All believed , most of them had ( as the case stood ) been deceived , and believed but a lye , a matter that was no such matter ; viz. That Christ died for every individual of them , if they would believe it ; & ● so his wrath shall abide on them the more heavily for ever , even because they believed not the testimony God gave by his Ministers , openly of his Son , that he died for them , whom yet he died not for , but only for a few Elect one : And so whereas God sayes , He that believes not the testimony that God gives of his Son , viz. that he gives Eternal Life by him to every man that believes in him , makes God a lyar ; If every man should believe in him , as they all are bid , and take the testimony of the Life by him to themselves to be true , either some must believe a lye ( since he died not for every man , but for some only , as they say ) or else their testimony is a lye , and they All lyars ( which is indeed the truth ) who testifie that God gave his Son intentionally , but for a very few , when Gods own testimony of him is , That he gave him a Ransome for All. And moreover , if they walk not in the Light they have to Salvation , they shall be condemned ; therefore , upon the account of the highest crime of All , which Light that each individual hath notwithstanding , never was Salutare , so much as sufficient to guide them to Salvation , but Naturale , a thing that was too weak to such a business , and ( fines salutares quod a●rinet ) mers tenebrae & Caeritas , as I.O. Are ye not ashamed thus to ingross the Grace of God , which is great to All , among your selves , and a few like your sinning selves , who think that ye shall scape , as Gods choice elected ones , upon your blind confidence of it , the wrath of God , though ye are found living and dying in the same evills , and not purged from sin , nor believing ye ever shall be , while ye live here , for the sake of which , wrath must come for ever on all others , as on children of no other disobedience , then that ye live , and look to die in some degree of your selves ? Seemeth it a small thing to you , O ye wofnlly blind , pitiful , or rather pitiless Shepherds of this English Israel ( as ye call it ) to eat up the good pastures your selves , and in your fancies feed your selves , and a few choice ones more ye count upon , that lie in wickedness , as the rest of the world , with all the fine things of the Gospel , freely , fully , fairly , and unfainedly offered to All , as well as you , as things truly intended to your personally from everlasting , but to the most only extended , without any true intent that ever they shall have them , so impropriating the benefit of Salvation to your sinful selves , as if ye were such whom God so indulges , as to wink at your infirmities , and justifie you in and under the guilt of them , if ye should happen ( with David ) to fail and slip aside into adulteries and murders , whilst other mens failings and infirmities of a less hideous nature , must be the faults and hainous crimes , which God will shew no Saving Mercy ( as not intending it to them what e're he talks ) to a thousand to one of those that commit them , & that unavoidably , upon the account of a certain Inherent necessity of sinning , drawn out of Adams Loyns , together with their very being as men , from under which necessity God never intends to help them so far , as to give them sufficient Grace or Light to guide and lead them out of it , or into so much as a liberty of doing better ? and all this , before they have ever actually in their own persons so much as forfeited their share in that special Grace or favour of his , that is in common offered to all men , by any Personal Rebellion and disobedience , and so interesting your disobedient selves still , as Gods Darlings in all the riches of his Grace , but detruding a thousand to one , for the Elect are very few with you , as little disobedient as your selves , irresistably into the depth of condemnation , preaching out that which is your mea● , as their poyson , and so designed to be from Eternity , without reference to any default in their own persons , but such as is derived on them only from Adams action ? Seemeth it nothing to you to eat up all the good pasture among a few of you , but ye must tread down as mud and dirt , and soul the residue with your feet , and make all other people , but your pretended Saints and Elect Ones , to eat and drink that Doctrine about Gods Grace and Gospel , which ye make no Grace or Glad tidings , but gall and wormwood , and Sad tidings , when ye have trodden and fowled in this filthy , pudly wise with your feet , Ezek. 34.18 , 19. By these , and the like sowrestuff , which is like Colloquintida in pottage , do you spoil all your dainties ye set before men , in your pretended Gospel Ministry of Gods large Love , rich Grace , and matchless mercy to mankind , & with your tenders of things to All men from God , that yet ye say God intends not to All , to whom you tender , and he by you extends them , make men Tantalize , and set them all a gaping and staring after that , which yet you tell them All may not , must not , cannot have , because God purposes to give them but to a few : Hereby ye make your selves , and God too , like your selves , a Lyar in one or other of his wills , and a meer mocker of men out of your mouths : Hereby you make your selves from God Ministers of impossibilities to men ; ye must go about , & be paid largely for your pains too , to call All men to do that , on peril of eternal ruine and condemnation , which yet , on pain of condemnation too , you charge them to believe ( as truth , the contrary to which is Herefie ) the most of them neither can do , nor ever could , nor shall ever be vouch●afed any ability by God sufficient to perfo●m it ; hereby do you not only coop up the infinite , saving , special Grace of God into a corner , as I have shewed , but make it utterly of none effect to a thousand to one of mankind , nor through any default or defect in the particular persons , that have no share in it , but in a certain Common Grace that can do them no good as to Salvation , only helps on their condemnation , and given to no other end , but to leave men more lyable to wrath without excuse ( as ye say ) & that on the account of Adams sin only , which particular act of his , hath l●ft all men for ever under sin , wrath , guilt , and incapacity to live , without Gods Grace , which he yet will not vouchsafe but to a few , which upon a personal appointment thereto , must necessarily be saved , and cannot chuse , while all the rest are as personally & peremptorily decreed to dumpation ; alias , never to be so helped , but that they must lye under the guilt of Adams old sin , and add new ones , to incur a thousandfold more wrath upon their heads , and condemnation , for not coming from under the old , which they were left lockt up from coming out of , and so hereby ye make God like some merciless mocking Tyrant , tha● calls to another tyed to a post , Come hither , with sooming pretences and promises of great matters , which he swears also he restly would have him have if he will come , and yet he will not loose him , when 't is in his power to loose him , and yet at last too , because he comes not at his ●all , pretending for no other thing then that , or else he desired not his death , but had rather he should have come , & enjoyed the good things he hold out to him , comes in wrath on the said lockt-up-man , and knocks him on the head for his refusing , before ever it was tryed by any liberty or ability given him , whether he would come , yea or nay . Hereby ye make God a Lyar again , on that ye draw down damnation on ●●ost of Adam Sons for their Fathers fault , while they yet are innocent in their own persons ( for all personal transgression , ye say , Is the punishment entail'd on it , and consecutive of the Original sin ) when yet God hath long since said , The son shall not bear the fathers sin , whiles not actually succeeding him in the same , and that Proverb be used no more in Israel , of the childs teeth edged by the fathers eating four grapes , but that soul that sins only , it shall die , Ier. 31.29 , 30 , 31. Ezek. 18.19 , 20. and every soul for his own iniquity only , and not anothers under the new Covenant , or Gospel , for that was of Old , and concerning temporal things , signifying , how the seed of the righteous , that succeed one another in righteousness , are all blessed , and the whole seed of the wicked cursed , that succeed one another , not in a way of fleshly generation , but spiritual sinful degeneration in wickedness and blood : And so the blood of righteous Abel , and his seed , to this day , shall be required at the hands of Cain and his seed , that hath shed it , in this very Generation . Ye use to say , the Qua. condemn all but themselves , who condemn only in order to mens being saved : But how do ye draw down to condemnation irresistably before they are born All but your selves , i.e. a few Elect and chosen Ones , and such Saints , as ye are your selves , that never mean to leave sinning ( for how can you , when ye believe ye cannot ) so long as ye live in this world ? Hereby ye shew your selves the Niggards and Churls , that would sain be called bountiful and liberal too , and yet make empty the souls ye would seem to fill , and cause the drink , ye call the thirsty to , to fail from their throats , and so bring Tantatalus his condemnation on them ( as I said above ) before their time . Hereby ye shew your selves to be the narrow-mouth'd , Old Bottles , that have none of the new Wine in them , but are pouring out for money to men such soure Vinegar and Wine of Sodom ( as ye have to fell ) to the setting of the teeth of God and good men on edge with your cut-throat Gospel , which to the whole World , to which Gods Grace and Gospel is to be preached , and to most of them ye preach your , so call'd , Gospel to also , hath a thousand fold more condemnation , judgement , and remediless wrath and misery in it , then it hath of Salvation , Grace , good News , glad Tidings to All , or tender Mercy to every man in it , to whom you tender it , in which Attribute of Mercy yet , ye say your selves , God desires more to be known by to the whole World of mankind ( if man himself hinder not himself from the Sight and fruition thereof , then by all his Attributes besides . When the wide-mouth'd Qua. as you call them ( truly ) in one sense , though ( scoffingly ) in your own , are those liberal Ones , that lay not the large Love of God up into a little nook , as ye do , but lay it forth in truth at large , as it is , and , while you Churls are evil toward them for it , working iniquity in your hearts , and practising hypocrisie , delight in , and devise the liberal things , by which liberal things they shall stand . I say , Are ye not ashamed thus to confound and contradict your selves , as ye do , upon your Principles , and to bely God , and mock men as from him , and make as if he meant not as he said , and make him , who was not so bad to Pharoah himself , as to burden and heighten him to destruction , till Pharaoh had hardened himself ( for though God did harden him , and said he would , yet it was on the account of his seeing how he would first rebell , or swell in pride against him , as he had done all his life before ) even worse then Pharoah himself , whom he destroyed for so doing , that punisht men for not making brick without straw , by how much Pharoah shewed himself but like himself from the first ; but God ( as ye represent God , as walking under a cloak among men ) makes men ( if your doctrine is to be believed ) believe he loves them , and truly wishes well to them All , and yet within himself ( though outwardly saying , he would not they should perish , conditionally they be willing to come to him for life ) wills absolutely , unavoidably the remedilesse destruction of a thousand to one of them . Are ye not ashamed to make God not only tyrannical , but hypocritical , and as dissembling as your selves ? And not meaning truly as he sayes , but meaning a few only when he sayes All ; to say that by every man he means some few , seeming Saints only , such as your selves ; and that his meaning cannot be as his words import , and that Christ may be mistaken , if his words be taken in the ordinary literal sense of them , as if there were no hold to what he sayes . And to say that Gods love is large to All , and yet that under no consideration he hath vouchsafed saving Light , saving Grace to All , but only such a common Grace as shall inevitably serve to damn them more , then if he had never given it , and then if Christ had never come into the world , and the Gospel had never been preached , and Salvation never tendred to them ; but in no wise be sufficient to help them ? Are ye not ashamed to force maintenance from men ( as ye do ) to maintain you in your mock ministry , and for running on such a sleeveless errand ( as this is to most men ) from God to all men , and to bear your charges , to the overcharging of a sinking Nation for your sakes , in your Message of contradictions , lies , and utter impossibilities , for so it is , on pain of condemnation to call All to come to Christ for Salvation , and to believe it , every man for himself , that Christ died for him , is tendered truly , sincerely from God to him ; and in particular , each is to believe him as his Lord and Saviour , or perish , and thae he is now freely proffered , and as truly , and unfeignedly offered from God to him , as he did once offer himself to God for him as his Ransome , as well as for any , and that there is this good ground for each particular man to believe it for himself ; because All , without exception of any sinner in the World , that does not exclude himself by his not coming , are freely , without respect of persons , invited to come ; and this ground also , that as he is truly , without m●ckage , held out to All , and All bid to come , so God is willing they should come and have the Salvation , and to that end hath sent his Son , not to condemn , but save them ; and his Son his Ministers , to intreat them to be willing as he is , and reconciled to him as he is to them ; and they declare from him , according to Gods words in the Scripture , that he died for a●l and every man , is a Propitiation for the sins of the whole World , and died for the ungodly , and came to save them , and heal the sick , and seek the lost , and such like ; and therefore every man may conclude its for him , one as well as another , that can say , he is a man lost , sick , sinful , ungodly , and of the World ; and that God hath also wrought in them , of his good Pleasure● to will and to do , and therefore now they must up and be doing , and work out their salvation , which if it be not wrought out , God hath done his part , and the fault is only in their own particular persons , and yet in Adam too , and God is no hard Master , but hath given to every one one talent at least , which if he hides , he will be cast into utter darkness , and weep , and gnash his teeth at the remembrance of it , that once he might have been happy , had he not been wanting to himself , and been an unprofitable servant with what he had , and had not in his own person still ( Mark ) put the Salvation from him , and hated the Light and instruction , and that God requires of men but the improvement of his own , and much more to this purpose , which all is sound , true , plain , wholesome , and saving Doctrine : And then to come with a new tale , whereby all the good grounds before laid for every man , that is called thereto , to come and believe upon , are utterly razed and removed , and to tell them , that though all are call'd , invited outwardly , yet an hundred to one are by a Decree in Gods secret Counsel so secluded by Adams sin , that they cannot come , nor have any right to Christ , he did not so much as die for them , but for some Elect ones , nor offer himself for the most , but a few , though God indeed sayes All , every man , sinners , ungodly , the lost , the whole world , and makes offers to all , where his Gospel is preached , yet by All , and such like universal terms , we must understand God and Christ , meaning another matter far otherwise then they say , for in innumerable places where God says , Omnis , All , it s the Elect only , one of a thousand he means ( so I.O. ) & 't is an usual thing for God and Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense . If we object ; But it s the most ordinary and literal sense of the words , and the very letter of the words so imports . Tush , Tush , ( quoth T.D. ) never talk of that , man , I tell thee , 't is usual with Christ to speak words of doubtful sense , so that his meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so 't would be here , if by every man we should understand every individual man , I know and confess the words import so , John 1.9 . but the indefinite phrase ( so T.D. calls it , though every man is an universal ) hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere in the Scripture , Christ tasted death for every man , when as he died but for a certain number , and the meaning of those words cannot be as the letter of them d●th import , for then the Scripture would contradict it self , but it must be , if not in the other way in which I said it might me , then in this way as I say , that every man is not every individual man ( so T.D. ) And besides , as God intends not the Salvation to all it s offered to , so all it s offered to on pain of sorer condemnation if they believe it , cannot believe it , nor accept it , and he offers it to All upon condition of acceptance : Indeed , could you suppose that all would take him at his word , and accept his offer , they should have the benefit thereof ; but that must not be supposed , on pain of being Heretical in the Faith , for 't is not Orthodox , that men can come to God when he calls them , nor accept of what he proffers , nor believe in him , whom he bids them believe in , that he died for them in particular , whom if they should believe in , that 't is so , then 't is so in deed , & in truth , that he died for them , else not ( as if he died not for sinners , qua sinners , and lost , but qua believers , which is absurd ) for men must have this first as a ground to believe upon , that he died for them , because for All , every one , sinners , ungodly , lost , Rom. 4. Rom. 5. while yet sinners , otherwise they have no ground on which to believe , nor can any man that does believe with any Faith , save that which is but meer fancy , believe that Christ died for him in particular , but as he died for All. For thus a man may safely conclude , Christ died for every man , for sinners , lost , ungodly , the whole world , therefore for me : But bid a man believe Christ died for him in particular , & tell him he died not for All , but for one of a thousand , the Elect only , and tell him also ( as T.D. does ) the Maisters know not the Elect , and ye cannot assure him , he is that one of a thousand , one of those few Elect ones , nor he himself neither know , or be assured of it , till after he believes it , and ye utterly take away the ground he is to believe upon , for he will argue thus rationally against you , or expostu●ate with you , to the shewing of your exhorting him to believe , to be a piece of frivolous foolery . Arg. Ye bid me believe Christ died for me , has Salvation for me , which God by you offers to me , and you call me to come to him for it , as that which , without hypocrisie or feignedness , God would have me to enjoy , being not willing I should perish : But what ground would ye have me to come upon , or of assurance I shall be welcome , or accepted in my acceptance , or of believing assuredly that God is really willing I should have it ? Ans. It s sufficient for all . Arg. That 's not the Question , I doubt not but there 's sufficiency enough in Christ to save All to the utmost that come to God by him , but what 's that to me ? that 's not a sufficient ground for me to believe upon ; many things are sufficient for many things , & to many more men then are ere the better for them ( as some greedy Grandees have many thousand pounds a year , which is sufficient for an 100 honest men to live honestly upon ; but he that shall go upon that account to feed and live at one of their Tables , may for all that be likely thrust out as an Intruder ) but can you tell me the glad tidings that that is for me , if so , I 'le believe it , and accept it , and come with all my heart , if you can lay a ground for me to be confident on , that I may , if I come , not be more bold then welcome . Ans. All are invited and call'd to come , and call'd freely , fully , without exception , to believe ; therefore why not thou ? Arg. But Friends , though all be called to come and welcome to God , by you who say ye are his Ministers , Is this in sincerity and truth , or in hypocrisie and ●●ackage ? is God as willing as ye seem to make him , that all shall come to life . Arg. Yea without hypocrisie , for God cannot dissemble , nor mean one thing and say another ( though we say so of him sometimes , as T.D. does ) he is freely willing , if thou art willing , he would not have thee die , but much rather live . Arg. But how shall I know that yet for my self ? does he intend the Salvation to all as really as ye pretend he does in the universal extent and proffer , or to s●me only ? for some of you say , he does offer it where he intends they , to whom ye say so sincerely offered , shall never have it , but are by a secret Decree of God bolted out from it for Adams sin before they were born , in the guilt of which ( though he will save a few , that he may shew his Mercy , Live , Grace to All ( as some sillily say ) to be of more extent then all his works , which few are only known to himself , and not ( as ye say ) to you and me ) he will praeterire , pass by , even a thousand to one , to perish unavoidably , notwithstanding Christs death , and so I may be one of those many , for ought either you or I know , yea a thousand to one but that I am proe-ordained to perish , and therefore still I have far more reason to believe , according to those principles , that I am one of those thousands to one that must perish , and to whom Christ is not intended by God , for all your fair proffers of him from God to me , then that one of a thousand Elected to life by him : There 's no small odds in these two , for if but an hundred men were sentenced to be hanged , and a pardon should be proclaimed to them all , and yet such an after-clap come , that it s not intended to the whole hundred , but to one of them only , and ninety nine must be hanged for all this , and he that is so free in proclaiming the Pardon , can't tell me neither that I am the only man that must be spared , I should think him a fool if he should stand pressing me to believe it , that I am he , and can shew me no evidence of it , and shall still rather believe ( do what I can ) that I am of the ninety nine , and should think him little less then mad too , if he should tell me , that if I do not believe it , that I ●●ithe man ( when yet he bids all the rest believe it too , each for himself , upon that same penalty , in case they do not ) I shall be hanged for this very thing , as he sayes every of them shall too , as the chief account on which they perish , even because we do not believe every man for himself , that he is the man , and for despising the mercy tender'd , and the large love of the Pardon-sender , and such like , and that in a more severe way of execution , even with quartering , &c. whereas nor I nor any of us all should perish , if we did believe it ; now does he intend it to all of them , if so , there I may safely believe he does to me , else I cannot . Ans. Not so in any wise . Arg. Does he intend it to the most ? Ans. Nay , but to very few . Arg. Do ye know I am one of those few that he intended it to , or of those many to whom not ? Ans. No not I , we are servants , we know not what the Master does , not which are the Elect , which not . Arg. On what ground then bid you me believe I am one of the few , it s more likely I am of the many that must perish , even by how much they are so many to one more then those are that must live ? Ans. All that come shall have it . Arg. How can that be , when yet ye say it s not intended to All , which if it be true , suppose all should accept it and come ( as ye say all cannot neither for want of power ) they cannot have it , because not intended for them ? Ans. Yea , it s offered on condition of acceptance , faith , and coming , so that could ye suppose All would take God at his word , and accept the proffer , they should have the benefit . Arg. But that must not be supposed , nor cannot rationally , according to your principles , who tell us All cannot come , cannot believe nor accept , for to accept , believe , the power at least must come from God , and he hath not , say you , given that , nor saving Light , under any consideration to All , but to those few only to whom he intends the Salvation , which I still demand a ground from you whereupon to believe I am one of , which till then I cannot believe any more then groundlesly , and groundless faith is no better then vain hope , which is fancy that will fail when men come to give up the Ghost ? Ans. Believe only in the Lord Jesus , and thou shalt be saved ; believe , and the Salvation is thine . Arg. But that 's Idem per Idem still , the thing ye are to give me a ground to do , but cannot ; I should believe it , if ye can shew me a ground whereupon ; you would have me first to believe it , and then my believing it will be a sufficient ground for me whereupon to believe it , whereas I must first have some ground wherein that faith ye call me to must stand , and whereon it must be founded , for Faith is not the ground of it self ; and your Crede quod habes & habes , s as foolish a conceit , as if ye should tell me that a man I never saw intends to give me an inheritance in particular , when yet ye never heard him say so , and would have me believe it , yet can give me no good ground whereon to believe it , but your single say so , who yet say ye know not that I am the particu●ar man he intends it to neither , only ye have heard say he proffers it to a thousand , not me by name ; and yet for all it is proffered to so many , it s intended only to one of them . Ans. If thou wilt believe it is so . Arg. But is it so that he intends it to me really and particularly ? Ans. Nay , I cannot tell that , it s hid from me ; but this is all we can say , that he intends it to some really , and he offers it to all conditionally they believe , so that if thou believe it it s thine . Arg. I cannot believe that though you bid me , nor ought neither , which you , who bid me believe it , can give me no ground for , nor evidence of , that it is so , and confess your selves you know not whether it is so or no ; that he died , I believe , as ye say , for some , and so they believe all o're Christendome , and in England , and also believe mostly every man for himself , that Christ died for him ; where yet for all your saying , he that believes so hath him , there 's not one of many h●th him , as your selves confess ; whose faith therefore , which ye beget many to , is mostly fancy , for they have not the Salvation yet , which is from the sin , but to believe it without more evidence for it , that it is a truth , he died for me , even for me in particular , then I see upon what principles ye are able to give me , were as fond as to believe a piece of news for truth , which the man who tells it , tells me , he knows it not , whether it be a truth or no , but much doubts it , or glad tidings of great joy to all people , which the News-m●nger himself can give me no evidence at all , that it belongs to me at a●l ; but after his most universal publication of it , that he has tidings to all and every one , and would have every one believe it so to himself , begins to fall back into such a diminutive prate , or pinching publik● privication , or private publication , as , when demanded about his news in this manner , Friend , a●t thou sure this thou extendest to all , is good news intended to all , is it so to me in particular , whom thou bidst believe it good news to me ? Replyes in this wise ; Nay , I cannot say that , I say it s to all and every one , but by those terms I mean but some , and those very few ; and I cannot say which nor whether in particular , thou art one of them or nay , yet thou must believe it , or else sad tidings will come after it , thou shalt be hanged up for not believing its glad tidings , which said News ; monger I should judge so little worth much heeding , crediting , or believing in what he sayes , that I should rather think him out of his wits , and to have suffered some shipwrack ( as our Priests have done of the true Faith ) of his very common sense and reason Shew me therefore what evidence ye have of the truth of the thing ye tell me , and bid me believe , or else it s but as Implicit Faith ( as at Rome ) if I should believe it , and not because I see it likely , but because ye say so , who yet tel ' me of what ye say , or bid me believe , viz. that Christ died for me , for he died for some , 〈◊〉 the Elect only ; that he cannot tell at all whether I am one of those Elect Ones for whom , yea or may . Answ. We say still it is offered to you as 't is to all , on condition of acceptance and of faith , so that who believes it shall have it , whoever he is , and 't is believing evidences it to be so . Arg. Still ye run but in a round ( as the Colliers faith does ) and say no more in effect then thus , first believe , and be confident , that Christ died for thee , and then this faith and belief of it , that he died for thee , is a sure good ground or evidence for thee , upon which thou mayest believe and be confident , that he did die for thee , and that thou art one of those few he died for , and not of those many to one , to all whom as freely as to thee he is offered , not one of whom yet he died for , or was by God ever intended to . Answ. But mind the Condition though ; he is offered to all on condition of acceptance , so that if thou perform the condition , as most do not , for few will come , thou must have the thing promised thereon , that is , the Salvation . Arg. The Condition ! I know Christ is not only offered to all on condition , but intended also to be the Saviour of All , on that condition they reject him not , but believe in his Name , come at his Call , and obey his Voice and Counsel , which God also by his Truth , Grace , and Love , puts men into capacity to do , or not to do , at their choice . But as for your Condition , I say , it 's more monstrous then all the rest , while for all your offers to All conditionally , they believe ye say it 's peremptorily intended but to few , and those few shall not chuse but perform it , and an hundred to one are as peremptorily intended by God , to be never interested in it , nor enabled to perform the Condition ou which only it s meant . Ye say indeed God offers and tenders Salvation by Christ to all conditionally , they believe in him , each man that he died for him , but what is this , so long as it 's not intended to all , and there is no such matter ( as ye say ) to b● believed , unlesse most men believe a lye , as that Christ died for All , and every man ? For a man to tell an hundred condemned men , there is life offered to them all , on condition they every man of them believe it is so as he sayes , and to bid them believe it as the Truth , for want of believing of which only they shall be executed more cruelly , in believing of which they shall be saved ; and then to tell them , the said Pardon is really , positively , and peremptorily intended but to one of them only , and not one of all the rest assuredly shall ever have it , it s absolutely , unalterably decreed , that the ninety and nine shall be hanged , is to destroy all the ground of the belief ye would beget them to , and to carry an hundred men up on high into a Steeple , in vain , aiery hopes of some glorious sight pretended to be shewed to them all , that from thence advantage may be taken , as the thing intended , for all the fair pretence , to throw ninety and nine of them down , go the breaking of their necks , and the mischieving of them more , then if they had never been so fairly premised , and so highly elevated , and but one of them be shewed the Light , which to all was promised ; for the absolute Decree and intent of God must ever inavoidably stand and take place against the conditional proffer of that which in the Decree is not intended ; so the proffer on condition still is not worth a straw , nor any thing , but a meer mockage of men , and such a one as is before that time wherein God sayes he will mock and laugh at men , which is only when they have finally rejected what once they truly might have had , and was indeed as truly intended as tendered on condition they by their wills refuse it not , Prov. 1. Psal. 2.4 . For what God absolutely wills and intends , ever is , & does come to passe , but what he intends ( much more what he does but offer us , and tender , and not intend at all ) but conditionally , of mens standing or falling , rejecting or receiving , when he has put them into an Equilibrio , for either , may be one way or another , this or that , so or so , and yet Gods absolute Decree stand inviolable , unalterable ( ●ut Alibi ) as namely , Adam when he was stated f●●m God upright ( as a stick may be set upright by a man , resolving which way it falls it shall lie , either in mire or on fair ground ) had posse peccare , posse non , God left him to his choice , intending , as to the man , conditionally , that if he fin'd , he should die , if not , live , and should have love or hatred from him , according as he did ; but as to the two states of sinning or standing , ●● is Decree was absolutely unalterably thus , viz. tthat the Life should be the reward of the standing , and the Curse the reward of the sinning , happiness and blessing he felt in the one way , ? oe , and wrath , and misery in the other : so is the Election and Reprobation of God not absolute , but conditional only ( as to persons ) but absolutely without condition , and inalterable ( as unto stares , things , wayes , actions good or bad , wickedness , or righteousnesse ) so that in the way of righteousness he hath absolutely intended Life shall be enjoyed , and in the path way thereof no death to any , as found therein , and as absolutely , that the way of the wicked , or of wickedness and ungodliness , shall perish , and they in it , that forsake it not ; that the seed of the Serpent shall be bruised , Satan and all that serves him ( as so ) and the seed of the woman only blessed . But now ( as to persons ) his Decree and intent is truly ●● his proffer i● ( i.e. ) universally and conditionally to all , that as they do they shall hav●● , as they sow reap , corruption or life ; the seed is they serve , and are one with , their portion shall be , as the way is they chuse finally to walk in , of good and evil , truth or deceit , light or darkness , life or death , which are both set before them , so their end shall be without change , because ( though he would have all persons chuse life , that they may live , yet so as leaving them to their choice ) yet to this way he hath everlastingly intailed the Blessing , to that the Curse , without alteration for ever ( ut alibi t ) Wayes are absolutely approved or reprobated , Men only conditionally , as chusing the wayes , either approved or reproved ; so that while ye say God proffers conditionally only to all , but intends absolutely , that one of a thousand shall not have the benefit of the Salvation , besides the mockage that is in that offer , he cuts the throat of all that comfort that is or can be conceived by it , and is also a flat contradiction to say , God offers Salvation to all , which is as much as to say , pretends himself willing that all truly should have it , and yet to say also ( as T.D. does ) that God does not pretend to intend the benefit offered to all to whom it is offered ; for however ye say ( falssy ) that he in himself really intends it not to all ; yet this is true , that so long as he proffers it to all , he pretends thereby to intend it to all to whom it is offered , or else ye run on a much more sleeveless errand then before , viz. pretending that to men , which yet ye say your selves , for all your offering it in his name , and pretending to offer it as from God , God neither intends , nor yet so much as pretends they all shall have it , to whom ye offer it ; which err and God never sent you on , but ye run on your own heads , with your heels upwards , to the work of preaching the Gospel , and so no marvell that ye turn it upside-down . That God intends not Salvation to all to whom it is offered , and yet though he offers it , saying , Look to me and he saved , my hand is not shortened that is cannot save , nor my eare heavy that it cannot hear , if your sins separate not good from you ; as I live , I would not have any of you perish , I would have all saved , and know the Truth , and come to Repentance and Life ; I have sent my Son that ( alias , to that intent ) ye should not be condemned , but saved ; And yet thereby to say he pretends not to intend it , as if all his fair proffers are not only without any intent to save , or do as he sayes he is willing to do , if we be not wanting , but as willing ; but also not so much as Tantamount to apnetence of such a thing , is such a mess of Propositions , as by which the Propounder thereof little lesse then pretends to intend to proclaim himself ●● self-confounder before the whole world : Yet this is T.D. prittle pra●le in his parcell I am yet in hand with , whose deep Divinity in it I shall take notice of yet a little more as follows . T. D. I do not affirm God offers it to all men , for many Ages and Generations never had one proffer , 1 Tim. 3. last . Rep. The mere shame for thee that thou deniest it , to the damning of All men in All Ages before the time of Christs appearance in that flesh that died at Ierusalem , as thy quoting that intimates : Was the Gospel of Salvation , because more clearly offered , as to the promulgation , then , not at all offered before ? was it , because now more revealed , then so hidden , as not at all revealed to any Ages above ? what abominable grossnesse is here ? had not All the Iews , and some Gentiles ( as Ninivee by Ionah ) the Gospel preached to them as well as to us , though to us more plainly , but that they believed it not ? That very Text also sayes , God was manifest in the Flesh , was justified in the Spirit , seen of Angels , preached in the Gentiles , En Ethnesin , believe on in the World , received up into Glory : Was the preaching of the Gospel , En Pase Te K●sei , En Ethnesin , in the Gentiles , in every Creature ( though a Mystery I confess , and so to you at this day ) never manifested in any man , or in any measure at all before ? T. D. But I do affirm it s offered to more then intended . Rep. Then , as R. H. said , the proffer is to little purpose . T. D. Yea , 't is to some purpose too as the Light is given ( i.e. ) to leave men without excuse . Rep. A cold piece of comfortless glad Tidings , a Gospelless-Gospel , a Merciless-Mercy to the s●nf●l World , that is given not to save , but to this purpose and intent , further to condemn most of them , to leave them without excuse ( as thou sayest , and thy three fellows also ) yet I shall shew by and by , does not , as ye hold it , leave them without excuse neither ; a Truth , that if it were so ( as thou sayest it only ) were a belying of God , as R.H. truly told thee . T. D. No , for he pretends not to intend it to all to whom its offered , the election obtains it , the rest are blinded ; and beside , he offers it on condition of acceptance to all ; and could ye suppose all would take him at his word , and accept his offer , they should have the benefit . Rep. But that must not be supposed from the Principles of thy personal Election of a few , and blinding all the rest from the very birth , nay cannot be supposed ; thou shouldst say could , suppose they could take God at his word , and accept ; for , by thy Principles and I. Os. of denying the saving ability so to do , the most , they to whom it 's not intended can no more accept or believe , then 't is possible , if they should believe , they should obtain that which they are personally and absolutely reprobated from so long before : for if God do not , will not give , hath not given , as ye say he hath not , some measure of the saving Grace , whereby to believe and accept it , to all whom he offers life to on that condition of acceptance , but calls , and requires them to believe and accept , what he knows they cannot without him , this makes him as much a Mocker of men still , as such a merciless Tyrant and Arrand Hypocrite , as shall stand aloof off from one hungry , that is lockt in the stocks , with a dish of meat in his left hand , and a Pole-Axe in his right , saying , why wilt thou starve thou self-murdering man ? come to me , and here is meat for thee , I am freely willing thou shouldest have it , and not perish ( never coming neer to unlock him all this while , nor bringing the meat within his reach ) but if thou wilt not come I will knock thy brains out ; and so because he comes not , when yet he knows he cannot , runs on him , pretending to do just Vengeance on him for his wilfull refusing his own help , when he might ( alias , never might ) have had it , and cuts him to pieces indeed : for he that on pain of punishment , death , and condemnation , if the Terms be not performed , tenders Life and Salvation on Termes and Conditions utterly impossible to be , or ever to have been performed by the person to whom the tender is , unless a Grace be given him , which yet never shall be , is an Hypocrite and a Tyrant , ( and such a one ye make God by your Doctrine , who yet is no such , but that ye belie him ) as such as he that shall say , he truly desires to make me his Heire , and so tenders me a good Estate , conditionally I will take a journey to the Man in the Moon first , to get it confirmed there , when I come back again , but if I refuse to go thither he will kill me , and so because I cannot climbe up to the Moon , falls on me , and puts me to death indeed . Arg. 7. Moreover , Gods offer of Salvation to many , to whom he intends it not , on conditions he knows they cannot perform without him , and yet not so much as enabling them all to perform them , when he might , but some few only to whom he intends it , makes God a Respecter of Persons , as R. H. truly said of it , when yet God is no Respecter of Persons , as the Scripture saith , but in every Nation , Men that fear him , and work righteousness , are accepted with him , and not otherwise . T. D. To that of making God a Respecter of Persons this answer will suffice , did God give Salvation to some , who accept not of it , out of particular fancy to them ; but exact of o●hers that acceptance , and for default thereof deny them Salvation ? then there might be some ground for the cavil , but now that its offered upon equal termes there is none . Rep. Does not God upon your blind Principles of personal Election , or loving of a few , out of a particular Fancy to them , and peremptory Reprobation , and hating the most of Mankind before they were born , without respect to foreseen good or evil to be done in time in their own persons ( excepting the respect to Adams sin , which the Sublapsarians prate of against the Supralapsarians , whose blind wranglings , whether Election be ex massa corrupta , or pura , are not more wearisome & toilsom , then they are both no●some and loathsome to look upon , by any that love and know the Truth , give Salvation to some out of fancy , who accept it no more then others ; but as he ( as you say ) makes them to do it by an irrestible power , which he denies to the other ) and exact of the other that obedience he enables them not to , and that for default thereof , not only deny them the Salvation , but also damn them down into double condemnation ? Does not God do so , I say , according to your Principles ? and if so , then is there not a ground by thy own confession , for that Assertion thou call'st a cavill , i.e. that God by your doctrine is ( doctrinally ) made a Respecter of persons ? And whereas thou sayest , Salvation is offered to men on equall termes , and therefore there is no ground to assert God a respecter of persons : I say , 't is the Truth we hold indeed , that 't is on equal termes tendered to men so far , at least , that till some put the word of life from them , and the salvation that is sent to them , so making themselves unworthy of it , when others receive it , it is so brought by Christ the Light , that the whole World might be saved as well as some of it , 1 Iohn 2.3 . Iohn 3.17 . and where it is offered , there are none to whom it is not as sincerely intended ; on condition of acceptance , as it is to some , and so God is in truth no respecter of persons . But darest thou say , and is it not a contradiction to thy self for thee T.D. as thy Principles are , to say Salvation is offered on equal Termes , who saidst above , that among those where the Gospel is preached , Salvation is offered to more then to whom it is intended ? if it be truly intended to any one , and not truly intended to every one to whom it is offered , but it is ( for all the fair offers ) absolutely decreed a few shall have it , and shall not chuse but perform the condition of it , which is acceptance ; and as absolutely decreed that the most shall never be enabled to perform the said condition of acceptance , which is exacted of them , and so shall unavoidably go without it , are these equal Termes ? Is not this offer upon as unequal termes , as if a man should tender to two condemned prisoners bound up in chains , that they shall both live , if they will come out of prison , but if not , they shall be more cruelly executed for refusal , intending to unlock one of them , that he may come forth , and to light , lead , and compel him irresistably to come forth also , that he may have the benefit of the Pardon , and live ; and as absolutely intending to leave the other lock'd under restraint in his chains , utterly devoid of any liberty to come forth , to the end that he may cut him off from any benefit of the promised Pardon , and take double vengeance on him for non-acceptance thereof ? and are these equal Termes ? are these wayes so equal as God sayes his wayes are ? Ezek. 18. who absolutely wills not the death of any that are as willing to live as he would have them , and that do not wilfully die for want of turning from those iniquities in which they cannot live , and from which he impowers them to turn , but that they refuse it , as well as leaves them to chuse death too , if they will neees have it ? Who sees not the foolish frivolousness , and self-contradiction of T.Ds. Divinations ? T. D. And for Christs being given for Salvation to the ends of the earth , that imports not so much as that the offer , much less the benefit should be of such extent in all Ages and Generations , as the fulfilling of that Prophesie bears date ; from the Apostolical Commission , Ma●th . 38.19 . and it intends that no Nation , how remote soever from Judea , should want the offer , nor some of it the benefit of Salvation . Rep. See how unsound Iudgements jump together , Christs coming a true Light into the world to enlighten every man in it , I.O. ( as is seen above ) dates but from about the time of his appearing in that Person , that 1600 years since died at Ierusalem , and his being a Light to the Nations , and Gods Salvation to the ends of the earth , is dated from much what about the same period , according to T.D. his Calender : But as for the extent of his Light and Salvation , which is said to be to every man that cometh into the world , and to the very ends of the earth ; This is extenuated by them both into an extreme little compass , in respect not only of time and seasons , but of places and persons also ▪ For first , as here is a cutting off of all Ages and Generations before the Apostolical times , by both I. O. and T. D. from any benefit from Christ and his Light , and from any interest in his Salvation , and of all Nations for 4000 years together , as it were by the lump and wh●le sale , unle●s happily they except the little nook of the Iewish Nation , which ( saving a few that walk't with God in the Light of Christ , as some in other Nations al●o did ) was , in moralities , well nigh as wicked generally as any people , yea , to the justifying of her Sister Sodom it self . And secondly , even of these last Ages , since the said appearance of Christ in flesh , the major part , by thousands to one , are , in the Doctrine of our Divines cut off , not by their own obstinacy and rebellion against Christs Light ( for so we say most are without the benefit justly enough , for hating and not coming to Christs Light in their hearts , which else would save them ) but by God himself , for want of his vouch●a●ing them such a Light , as , if improved , is sufficient to Salvation ; for if all Nations have the offer of it now ( as in an outward Ministry they have not had since Christ , nor yet have , there being not a few at this day to whom the outward news of Salvation is not come by any outward Ministry , and therein T.D. is also out in his accounts ; yet where the offer is , there 's not one of many ( according to these two men ) that have so much grace ever given them of God , whereby to be in capacity to lay hold on it because it s intended but to few , even of such , and so the offer is but a meer mockage still , all have not the offer , and of such as have that , but few the benefit of the Salvation , because not intended , though rendered to them , and they not put in possibility for it for want of Saving Light , or sufficient g●ace to accept it , or to perform the condition on which its rendered ; and so as universally as is talkt of in Scripture , in Terminis , as belonging to All , yet by the restrained senses they put on these universal terms , as some , a few , the Elect , & ● . it s not one of a 1000 that can have the thing , or are intended by God to have any share in it . But O ye Niggards and Churls , that are called by the name of Masters in Israel● Is the Spirit , and Saving Light , and Saving Grace , Saving Health and Salvation of the Lord thus straitned and limitted , as ye limit them ? Are these his doings ? Doth he mean as ye say he does , when he sayes All , every man , the whole world , and not rather as he sayes himself ? Are not the●e your doings , thus to pervert the right words and wayes of the Lord ? and with your narrow senses to distinguish the most infinitely immense Mercy , and incomprehensibly large love of God to all mankind , and every individual person thereof , that does not first personally slight and sin against it , and so pull more misery upon themselves , into such a diminutive matter , as amounts truly , seriously , and intentionally , to the redeeming of some one of a thou and from misery , to no more then a meer making of a thousand to one more miserable , then if he had never sent the news of that mercy in Christ , and a most cruel mocking of those individual persons in that ( as to them from the first ) remedilesly derived and decreed misery also ? Is this the glad ●●dings of joy to all people , and all mankind , that by their own neglect do not loose their share in it , to tell them by general Proclamation , that there 's Salvation and life for them All in Christ without exception ▪ and its offered on equal terms to them All without respect of persons , and then to tell them after , that this Salvation , which is so infinitely sufficient for all , is intended but to few among them , and those are ye know not which ; and these few shall assuredly partake of it , and many to one shall as assuredly never see it , nor be made capable to come to it by any Light sufficient to lead to it , though never so well attended to , because it was never intended to them , but from all Eternity the very contrary was intended , and irrevocably decreed , as conce●ning their particular individual persons , that they shall perish for , and not be one jot the better for that Salvation , do what they can by the improvement of that Light and Grace they have from God , which is only common , and not saving , nor able to help them , and God in no wise will help them to more , but leave them helpless , that the Salvation may pa●s by them to the few to whom its intended , and be ( as to the rest only ) as a means to make them liable to more wrath for their refusing it , and more without excuse in the midst of that misery too that 's encreased by it ? Is this your G●spel of Gods infinite Grace to All men in Christ , that very few shall be saved , but unavoidably , by any thing that God will ever enable them to do to the contrary , most men , perhaps a thousand to one of those to whom it s offered shall be according to Gods unchangeable and personal Decree concerning them in that kind , doubly damned by Christs coming into the World , of whom ye shameless ones do you not hear God say , he sent him not to condemn , but to save the world , which yet through the despising his true Grace , and hating his ( saving ) Light when it s come to them , are ( his love notwithstanding ) the more sorely condemned ? Is this good news to an hundred , to hear that one of them shall be highly preferred , and none shall hinder it , but as uncontroulably his rise shall be the ruine of all the rest , and and an occasion whereupon the ninety nine shall come all to be hanged ? Ye fools and blind , Is this your liberal , universal rich Gospel to the whole world ? O ye graceless , ungod-like , ungospel-like Gospel Ministry of England , and Vniversities of the same , about which there is such ado among the Powers , Parliaments , Armies , and their Generals Courts Committees , Cities , and their Common Councels of late , that ye may be so richly , liberally , and universally maintained in your private promulgations of it , not far from your own fire sides , much less so far as Christ gave Commissian to his Ministers to publish his Gospel going out into all the World , all Nations , every creature , the ends of the earth ; but like Gospel , like Minister of it , a private particular , publication of it for pay , and impiop●iations by each Preacher in his private particular Parish , or place of preferment , is most proper to such an impropriated , private , particular Gospel as yours is , whose care is more , according to the provision the Earthly Powers , that are bewitcht by you , make for you in that particular , to make augmen●●tion of your own means in the Earth , then an augmentation of Gods true Gospel so far , as to all ends of the earth , by exposing of your own persons to the pains , and weariness , and travels , and hazards , that many of Christs Servants have gone through , and some even in these dayes for the sake thereof , or for the sake of your non Gospel either , which yet sith 't is your own , and another then that which Paul and others then preached , it s no great matter ( for a private preaching of it is fittest for it ) whether it go so far , yea or nay , as to the ends of the earth ; and indeed much farther then it has gone it must not go , neither in respect of time nor place , and no great ma●vel , for Pauls Anathema is entail'd to it , and the folly of i● is beginning to be made manifest unto all men , as theirs also was , 2 T●m . 3. even Iannes and Iambres , who of old withstood Moses and the Truth : If any man judge me too long in this business , let him excuse me if he please , or if not , let him chuse , I matter it not , for I here honestly profess the Doctrines that are entail'd on each other ▪ in this matter of particular Election of a few , and personal Reprobation of most men by God , from both Salvation , and all possible sufficient means of it , either upon , or before Adams fall , without reference to personal good or evil first performed , or committed , do hang so together ; like some tangling bushy brake of b●yars and thorns , to the cumbring of the ground where the Truth it self should grow out , and are such a wild Wilderness of Contradiction and Confusion , that being , by the way whereinto I. O. and T. D. dark distinctions have driven me , once entred into it ▪ I cannot easily on a sudden find any way out of it again , and must walk yet a little further , before I can be so clearly quit of as I desire to be . I. O. sayes , that it s so certain , from innumerable places of Scripture , that Christ hath not savingly enlightned All , but some only ; that he hath no spiritual understanding who once dreams to the contrary ; whereas I say , he hath yet no more then a meer mysty ●nsight into the mystery of Gods love in Christ to the world , who limits it only to a few : I know the Scripture from one end to another , yet I know not so much as one place wherein there 's the least hint against the universality of his sufficient ( G●ace●to All , 't would have been more to my satisfaction , had I. O. named but one testimony of Scripture , and directed us to it , then to give us intimations of innumerable Texts , and testimonies to that purpose ▪ and set down not so much as one , which till he doth , I shall be so bold as to tell him ; there is not one at all of any true tendency that way , but very many more , besides those above-alluded to , which evince the universality of Christs death , the commonness of his Salvation , the generality of sufficient Light , Grace , and of the gift of his Righteousness unto All , and upon A●1 , as they believe , without difference or respect of persons , Rom. 2.10.11.3.22 . 1 Pet. 1.17 . The usual common silly shifts , and pedling put offs , that are made against those Texts which speak in universal terms , are that by All , All men , every man , every creature , the World , All the World , the whole World , not All and every one indeed is meant , but some , the Elect only , which T. D. calls few in comparison of the rest , All manner of people , not Jews only , but Gentiles also . So J. Tom. and R. Baxt. p. 60.62 . The senses in which Christ Mediator enlightens with spiritual Light every man that cometh into the world , 1 John 9. That Text may be understood of this Light two ways : 1. All who are enlightened with Spiritual Light : 2. All sorts and Nations of men , Gentiles as well as Jews , not singuli generum , but genera singulorum , some in All Nations , some Iews , some Gentiles , and among the Gentiles some Barbarians , some Scythians , some Englishmen , some French , some Turks , some Tartars , &c. not All in every Nation , not All of every sort , but some of All sorts , some Kings and men in Authority , some under Authority , some rich , some poor , some Masters , some Servants , &c. not the whole Globe , or Wheel of the World ; but I.Os. whimsie , or Wheel within a Wheel , that is his Church , or as others , Mundus Electorum ex mundo Electus : This and such like is the narrow strict , restrictive rattle of I.O.T.D.I.T.R.B. and the rest of that Fry , whose restrained senses of so universal terms , let us reason together about a little . Rep. 1. Is it so indeed Friends , that these so eminently comprehensive terms , All , everyone , &c. signifie no more then some , a few , &c. as aforesaid ? Is this Syncategorema istud Omnis , the Con-signification of that Adiective All ? Is it so as I.O. sayes , per omnem hominem , non omnes & singulos , sed quosvis tantum intelligi debere , that by All and every one , we ought to understand not All and every man , but some only ; All not absolutely , but respectively to the Elect ; which are but few ? This is more then ever I could yet understand since I left off to be ( as ye are , and will be more ere long , if ye go on to fight against the Light ) without understanding to this very day . To say that All may signifie many ( as many is sometimes expressive and truly conclusive of All , and not exclusive of any ; as Rom. 5.15.18 . ) is much better to be born with ; but that All , or at least that every man , which is more indigitative of every individual without exception , should be said to signifie , not so much as the major , but the minor part of men : This is one absurdity more then I ever learnt before from any , but the unlearned labours of your selves , and such as side with you in your silly-come-sensless senses upon the Scripture . 2. If it be no absurdity but usual and proper to intend , not All men , nor Ill men , which are the most ; but the Elect , a few good men only , by those terms All men , every man , All the World , &c. and not every individual ( prout innumer is aliis locis usurpatur● as it is used ( quoth I.O. ) in innumerable other places ) then I shall the more willingly excuse him , who shall interpret those Texts , viz. Rom. 3.9.10.11.12.22.23 . Rom. 5.12 . Gal. 3.22 . and many more Texts ( which must be some of I.Os. numberless number , there being not innumerable places besides them ) that speak of All mens being gone out of the way , &c. All mens having sinned , and falling short of Gods Glory , dying in Adam , &c. All the worlds becoming guilty before God , &c. All Believers being justified , All Saints honoured , &c. Also such places as speak of Gods being avenged on All that obey not the Gospel , 2 Thes. 2. and such like ( respectively ) not of All and every man , every Believer , every Saint , every Rebel , against the Gospel , but of some few , a few Believers , a few Saints , a few Rebels against the Gospel , which were an absurdity unsufferable , if not no less then madness in the abstract . But I.O. that he might at least insanire cum ratione , in proof that there are innumerable places besides , Iohn 1.9 . where these general terms are so restrained , makes a shift to produce one , which is as much to his purpose as one can be , that over-turns it , that is Col. 1.6 . where Paul sayes the Gospel is come into All the World , by which term All the World , I.O. understands not All men , but the Elect only , heeding as little , as he does other matters , that the same Apostle in the same Chapter , ver . 23. speaks of the same Gospel in the same way as here , that it is preached , En Pase Te K●isei , In every creature that is under Heaven . So that the 6th ver . which is I.Os. instance , doth by ( All the World ) intend the same Subject as he does , by the term ( every creature ) which is not such a pi●●a●●● , as the Elect only ; for then the absurdity would be no less in these two verses , then it would be so to interpret it in Mark 16.16.17 . where both these terms stand together ; and how gross would it be when Christ sayes to his Messengers , collectively considered , Go out into ( All the World ) and preach the Gospel to , or in ( for there 's no Preposition ) ( every creature ) He that believes shall be saved , &c. to read and render these general terms not absolute ( as I.O. sayes Omnis must not be ) but relate ad Electos , with reference only to the Elect ▪ a Fool may see : For as I shewed above from Iohn 3.16 . of the word World , so may I much more here shew from the word ( All the World ) the folly of them that will have it signifie no more then the Elect , it being then to be thus read ; viz. Go out unto the Elect , and preach the Gospel to every Elect one , whoever in all the world , that is among the Elect , believeth , and is baptized , shall be saved ; but whoever among those Elect ones , believeth not , shall be damned : Here 's I.Os. Syncategoremaistud ( Omnis ) yet surely , as far as both he and T.D. are from holding the Gospel to be intended by God to any , but those few they call the Elect , neither of them is such a niggardly Churl , but they are both rather so free as to have the Gospel ( excepting ever what large pay the Preachers must have for it ) very freely offered from God to no less then All ; whether this be any of those innumerable places I.O. means , when he sayes the word Omnis , All , is so used in them , or not , I know not ; but here 's the same terms , every creature , and All the world , as are used in that Col. 1.6.23 . which he alludes to ; and if this be not one , I doubt his number will come short of numberless ; for at present ( as I shall look no further ) so I mind no more then one place , where the same term of ( All the World ) is used ; viz. Rom. 3.22 . where it s said , All the World is become guilty before God , which if I.O. read non absolute , but relate ad qu svis tantum ; that is , ad Electos , excluding All the rest ( as he does the worst from the Grace of God ) so as to say a few of the world only , that is , the Elect , are become guilty before God ; then let 's eat and drink , that we may live and dye Reprobated from God , and so become guiltless , ●ith none but his Elect become guilty before him , who are of all men then indeed most mi●erable . And as I.O. so T.D. seems not to dote without at least some seeming shew of a Reason for his most impossibly proper sense of that term , Every man that cometh into the world , John 1.9 . by which R. H. truly told him he makes John a Ly●● , and so say I too , while he understands it of but some of every Nation , and those so few , that page 5.1 Pamp. he stiles them a small number in comparison of the rest who are not enlightned , T.D. No such matter ( quoth he ) I make not the Apostle a Lyar , for the indefinite phrase hath a restrained sense , as elsewhere , Heb. 2.9 . Christ tasted death for every man , when as he died but for a certain number . Rep. To which I need say no more among wise men , then to tell T.D. that if he over-shot himself unawares in saying ( every man ) is an indefinite phrase , let him only fetch back that Bolt of his which was so soon shot , and I shall freely give it him again , and there 's no harm done ; but if he shot it not in hast , but wittingly , 't was with so little due deliberation , that ( as brief as he is , page 3.2 . Pamp. to take on him to teach G.W. who in things of God may be his Teacher ) he had need to be taught again ( notwithstanding the flourishing his Title page with M.A. ) by such as hold it fitter to forget , then to teach others any of that Tyruncular kind of learning , That ( man ) and ( men ) are indefinite phrases in such necessary matters , are equivalent to an universal , though in some contingent business they are aedaquate only to a particular ; but as for Omnes homines , Omnem hominem , quoseunque unumquemque ( All men ) ( every man ) and such like ; These are so far from being but indefinite , as hominem , quosvis homines a●e , that they are the most express universal terms that can be spoken ; yea , nothing is more universal , according to the very litteral sense of the words , then Vper Panton Anthropon , Panta Anthropon Ercomenon Eis 〈◊〉 : for All men , every man that cometh into the world ; these , specially this last ( every man ) is so indigitative and absolutely conclusive of each individual , that it is not at all exclusive or exceptive of any at all ; and if every man ●n the wo●ld be an indefinite phrase ( as T.D. ayes ) I know none is universal , for All is not ( if it be so much ) more comprehensive , then that , of All without exception ; and if ( as he sayes ) every man that cometh into the world , be but some , a few of every Nation , Kindred , Tongue and People , then I 'le read and render ( by the same rule ) the word every , as affixed to Nation , Tongue , &c. so restrictively too ( for who shall forbid me ? T.D. of All men can't ) thus ; viz. Every man of every Nation , that is , only some , a few men , of a few Nations , ●f a few Families , Tongues and People , and then I 'le carry the boundl●ss Grace of God , and incomprehensible Light of Christ , into a small compass , and diminutive corner of the world indeed . But T.D. perhaps deems se imperatorem esse , and so may Leges dare , non accipere ; for when we use any term in a sense that troubles him , then the phrase imports otherwise ( quoth he ) the words intend so or so , it must bind and be cogent to us , saying when he sayes Rex sum , sic volo , sic Iubeo , Nil ultra quaero Plebeius ; but when we tell him , as we do in this , the words import otherwise , the very literal sense of them cannot be that , then he tramples that down : Tush ( quoth he ) the meaning of those word ; cannot be as the Letter of them does import , for then the Scripture must contradict it self ; it was an usual thing with Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , his meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary and literal sense , and so it would be , if , by every man , we should understand every individual man. Rep. Where note , first , that T.D. yields , that the most ordinary and literal sense of ( every man ) is every individual man , and that the letter of those words , every man , Iohn 1.9 . does indeed import no other then we say against T.D. and I.O. viz. That the true Light , which is that of Christ , enlighteneth every individual man that comes into the world . And so secondly , to the contradiction of himself , who so calls it , that every man is not an indefinite , but an universal phrase , and so cannot have such a restrained sense as in some cases , not all , an indefinite expression may , for mostly an indefinite it self is equivalent to an universal ; and if it be taken according to the proper import , ordinary , and literal sense of it , it is to be read every individual man. 3. That in those three places , Iohn 1.9 . Heb. 2 : 9. 2 Cor. 5.14 . Christ enlightneth , tasted death for every man ; died for all : The letter , and the true , proper , genuine , ordinary , and litteral sense , which the words All and every man import , is on the Qua. side , by T.Ds. own free , or rather forced , confession ; and ( whether they , who fighting and scoffing at the Light and Spirit within , which only reveals it , know it not , or will grant that or no ) we know that we have the true meaning and mind of Christ. 4. What hath T.D. and I.O. left then on their sides to help themselves with ? Nempe velle suum cuique est nec voto vivitur uno ; every man his own will , even what opinion he pleases : Quot homines , bis tot s●ntentiae ; as many more minds , as men , for they do not both in every thing fain the same , nor doth each of them fancy the thing at all times alike , but is at odds about it within himself : I.O. hath two shifts , as I have shewed , but never a good one , to slide away by , but one of which T.D. shuts in with : T.D. hath three , two of which ( as short as they are of truth in his own intent ) extend far enough , as is said above , to give the cause contended for to us ; and the third , which is I. Os. also , hath nothing to say for it self , but that it 's a wresting and restraining the phrases All and Every man , besides their ordinary literal signification and import ; it cannot be , as the words and letter of them doth import , therefore it must be in this or else that sense , which the letter of the words does not import ; Somewhat they would say , but they cannot tell what ; Somewhat it is , but no matter what , so it be not the right meaning , or true literal sense ; in a word , all they have to trust to is , their own muddy meanings , foolish figments , false 〈◊〉 , unccuth imports on plain phrases , which none ( but that some will ) need at all to mistake , which who is such a fool , as to be taken with the ●oy●shness of them , may take , and who will not , may safely let alone , and every wise man will feel to be foolish , and every reasonable man will refuse as so . 5. 'T is to be noted , that when the proper , ordinary , literal sense of any words do but seem to tend toward their own turns , our Divines insist much upon that intent and purport of them , though they will needs make them mean another matter then they intend , or truly import , when the true interpretation of them over turns and thwarts the tenure of their false Doctrines , and so Rule o'●e their Rul● as they list , according to their own unruly will , and lay out the Letter , like a piece of lead into what shape , sense , or form seems good to their own lewd , Lesbian , or petulant fancies ; and when it does not ●●and handsomely to their particular private purpose one way , they set it another , and sometimes two or three wayes at once , not determining which it is , but saying , It s either this , or that , or both : So Io. Tom. and R. Bax. page 60.62 . that Text , Iohn 1.9 . may be understood of this Light two wayes : 1. All who are enlightned . 2. The other sense is , All sorts and Nations , &c. but not that of the Qua. though the letter it self imports it : But page 35. 1 Pamp. both meanings are the Holy Ghosts , the phrases will bear either senses , and either of them cross the Qua. interpretation ; and when they deem they can make any use to help their crazy cause , by the literal sense and import of the words , then they will have that ; and so what a deceitful deal of-Do there is with T.D. about the import of the words , a very Boy may behold up and down in his two Trisles , page 5. 1 Pamp. That expression , Luke 17.21 . may import , that the Kingdome which the Pharisees did upon a mistake look for without them , was indeed ( Mark ) a Kingdome within them . Here it seems T.D. unawares , thought the import of the expression would have served his turn , and was mistaken , it serving the Qua. for truth , whereupon upon second thoughts ( as he sayes ) gives another , which he judges the most genuine interpretation En Vmin among you ; so the Preposition may be rendred ( quoth he ) when as there 's no such Preposition at all as En in that Text , it being Entos Vmon , as is shewed above . So page 14. the phrase doth not import the perfection of any on earth ; that likes him not it seems , but else the phrase imports it well enough , for he sayes , ye are come to the Spirits of just men made perfect ; as it s said , The Saints are all to come up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ , Heb. 12.23 . Eph. 4. So page 16. Perhaps the clause should b● referred to Sanctification , 1 Cor. 6.11 . or else it may be meant of the Spirits application , forte ita , forte non . So page 4. 2 Pamp. as the Apostles expression is ( there he is for the import of the expressions ) So page 47. 1 Pamp. The expressions of freedome from sin , do not note freedome from the being , but dominion of sin . Page 4. 1 Pamp. As for the phrase in your hearts , it imports but the same with that expression , the eyes of your understanding being enlightned . Page 9. Doth not commit sin , that cannot be meant of freedome from sin , but either there is an Emphasis in the word sin , intending under that general term one kind or sort of sin ; i.e. the sin unto death , or if not in the Substantive , then on the Verb Poiei , which notes to make a trade of sin , ( as the Priests do , who preach sin up , and down for money ) So somewhat it is , if they could tell what , and no matter what , nor where the Emphasis lyes ; whether we can distinctly tell , yea or nay , so we may keep that Doctrine of sufficient Grace against sin to All men , and that danmable Doctrine of Devils ( that is , of not sinning any more which the Qua. teach up among men , from taking too much root , and bringing forth fruit to perfection of holiness ; that spoils all their ●●ading as well as the Lawyers , which stands but upon mens trespasses and sins , if once men come to leave sinning , and hating , and envying , and stealing , &c. and come to live in love , innocency , honesty , and peace , that marres their Ministry ; therefore they 'l beware of that Leven however , which will sowre all the sweet success that they have from Generation to Generation , into the Popish preferments of their deceased Predecessors , if that way be shewed how to live without sin , it turns their rich trade of preaching down sin , and talking against sin , up by the roots ; and therefore , though their Trade is for money to declare against sin , yet they must preach it up , and talk for it a little too , and do their work not too hastily , all at once , left there be no more work for them ere long to do , but such as they were never bred up to live by . Thus not only T.D. I.O. R.B.I.T. but in a manner all our literal Preachers , when the Letter leans not that way themselves , for their lusts sake list to have it , make no more to wrest it besides its own ordinary , proper , and literal se●se and import , which when it smiles with them , they plead , as much as they implead it , when it makes against them , then a man need do to turn a Nose of Wax which way he will , and no less then twenty wayes one after another , if they please ; yea , it is but saying when they are minded so to do , upon mislike of the Spirits plain , naked , honest meaning , thus ; viz. The Spirit does not mean here as he sayes , but means another thing ; 't is usual with Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , his meaning may be mistaken , when his words taken in the most ordinary and literal sense ; and so it would be , if by every man , we should understand every individual man ; the meaning of th●se words cannot be as the Letter of them does import , then this and that absurdity would follow ( say our reconciling self-contradictors ) by which they import themselves to be very little insighted , either into the Letter it self , which they are Ministers meerly of , and much less into the mind of the Spirit which gave it forth , which never does , as these in●aners and Opinionists would make it , speak one thing , and mean another , but means truly what he sayes , though his very sayings are mysteries to the misty Ministers ; when he sayes All , and every man , he means not some only , a few , one of a thousand , as the personal Electionists do , who extend the large Love of God so far , as to say , it s intended but to few , and streighten the boundless Mercy of God into a Mi●e , which is stretched out matchlessly beyond measure over all his works , which universal terms ( All men ) ( every man ) if they were to be restrained , as they tell us , how much more legally may indefinite terms be taken in a restrained sense , and be made equivalent to particulars , and upon that account we may except the most sinners ( as they indeed do some of them personally and absolutely from all Iudgement and Condemnation , and the most , as absolutely from Mercy and Salvation ) from the fear of any evil befalling them for their sins ; so as to say , when God speaks indefinitely , he will rain snares , fire , brimstone , storm and temptest on the wicked ; that 's not All , and every wicked man , but a few only , therefore fear not ; Wh●remengers and Adulterers God will judge , Lyars , Murderers have their part in the Lake ; that 's but some few only , at least not All , nor the most , not the Saints , not his upright hearted Davids , when gone from their uprightness ( for so David was in that matter of Vriah , when guilty of Murder and Adultery ) therefore droop not ye murderous , adulterous Saints of this English unclean-hearted Israel : If God had said All , and every Adulterer , and every Murderer hee 'll judge , and divide him his portion in the Lake , his meaning had not been as those words import , 't is usual for Christ to speak words of a doubtful sense , ye mistake his meaning , if you understand him according to the ordinary and literal se●se of the universal terms All , and every man , as speaking of every individual man , but he speaks but indefinitely , Sinners , Whoremengers , Adulterers , Murderers , not expressing All and every such a one , which had he exprest , he had dot implyed , though the terms import so , for he offers one thing oft when he means another , offers that to all in words in his revealed Will , which in heart and his secret Will he intends but to a few , and if an universal cannot , without going aside from the literal sense it imports , yet the indefinite phrase hath a restrained se●se . Ob. Nay , this cannot be , though in the other case it may , because this is contrary to the Faith , the other is not , and we must keep to the Analogy of Faith in our interpretings of the Scriptures . Rep. Herein ye are more miserably bemoped and befool'd ( if ye could once see it ) then in all other your absurdities put together , for I ●row whence , or from what Church , Principle , Ground , Foundation , comes that Faith , according to the Analogy of which ye are to conform in your interpretations of the Scripture , it must be either the Infallible Chair , and bottomless pit of mens dunghilly Traditions , which is the Foundation of the Church of Rome , and her Faith , which Foundation , Church and Faith that 's built on it , ye would seem in words at least to deny , or else the Infallible Light and Spirit of God in the heart , which the Letter came from ; and the Qua. according to the Letter , and together with it , call men to , and are themselves , as to their Faith founded on , whom together with their Faith ( which stands not in mens words , writings , nor thoughts , but in that Light which is the Power of God ) and that Foundation of it also , with no less , but a little more detestation ye deny ; or else the Scripture it self , which ( as much as ye live by ( yea by Popish ) Tradition in many things , as the Papists do ) yet ( in words ) ye own . Now the two first being denyed , this last is the Rule of your Faith , according to the Tenor and Analogy of which , the Churches Faith , which ye must interpret Scripture by , is to be framed and conformed : See then your most abominable confusions and rounds ye run in : 1. You have the Scripture , before which the true Faith was delivered to the Saints a 1000 years , which Scripture is the Foundation of your Church & Faith ( whereby ye might see , were ye not blind , that your Church and Faith has not the same Foundation as the true had ) Next , you have a Faith which must be squared by the best interpretations ye can make of that Scripture , alias , a common stock of Divinity , that stinks as the blood of a dead man that hath no life in it : Then again , this Scripture , by the Analogy of which ( as the Church interprets it ) your Churches Faith is to be framed , must be bent to , and interpreted by the Analogy of that Faith which was thereby framed : So Riddle me , Riddle me , what 's this Round of our reasonless Rabbies ? 1. The Scripture is the Rule of our Faith ( say they according to our Churches interpretations of which her common Faith must ( as to the Articles of it ) be framed and conformed . 2. The common Faith is the Rule , according to the Analogy of which the Scripture must be interpreted , and all our Expositions of it framed and conformed : Oh the bruitish brainy notions of our of our Brittish Nation ! A false Faith about personal Election and Reprobation , about All 's signifying some men only , and every man only a few , being framed in Iohn Calvins fancy upon his miserable mistakes , and misinterpretations of the Scripture ( Scilicet ) ever since All Scripture must be interpreted according to the Analogy of that false Faith : ●●a ferunt & circum-feruntur , T. D. J. O. R. B. J. T. Ignoramus , Sm●ctimnuus , and others . The Blood of Christ cleanseth us , in presenti , from all sin , that 's the guilt ( say they ) not filth of it , though the very phra●e imports otherwise ; cleanse your selves from all uncleanness of flesh and spirit , that 's not as the Letter imports , All indeed , but All gross iniquities ; we must have our infirmities while we live here , and and if he meant them , he commanded impossibilities , which the Apostle did not : He that sinneth is of the Devil , he that 's of God , sins not ; that 's not as the word Amartanei ( nemine c●ntradicente ) imports , but it must be expounded by the other phrase Amartian Poiein , operam dare peccato , &c. ( which Amartian Poiein , but that they stretch it out upon the Tenters , is no more then Amartanein ; for he that sins does sin , and he that commits sin does no more , and does so much , as that while he does sin , he is ( as Christ said , Iohn 8. ) a servant of it , and not of Christ in that ; they do no iniquity , that is , not as the Letter imp●rts , but they do none as the wicked do it , that is , with all their might , but more moderately : Perfection , that 's only such an uprightness and sincerity , as respects all Gods Commandments , whether they be kept or broken ; saved from sin , is from the dominion , not being of it , while we have a being here , it hath not potestatem dominandi , nor damnandi , but operandi , bellandi , captivandi , only led Paul captive ; while he liv'd , to the Law of it ; so that with his flesh he served it , but it domineers not , damns not , because the mind approves it not , while the flesh commits it , if it chance to be murder and adultery , as that of David , whose heart was upright ( say they ) though the Scripture excepts him from uprightness in that case , and therefore iustified ( quoth T. D. ) alias , held guiltless ( O Criss-Cross ) while under the guilt of it , being weak , and temptation strong , and an hundred more such fetches do our formally holy Fathers find , wherewith to feed up them●elves and their failing Flocks from fainting under their ●●●lest faults , minifi●d into the name of Saints infirmities . Thus they swim up and down in their non-sensical senses and notions , so that nothing must be taken as the words import , but when a meaning serves their licenticus turns , and then they urge , the words import it so ; one while it must be as the phrase imports , other whiles it cannot be so , but otherwise then the Letner imports it , for then the Scripture ( so it seems indeed to the Owls and Batts , whose eyes dazle at the Light it came from , so that they see more by night then by day ) would contradict it self , and be at variance , and disagree within it self , and cannot approve it self to their own understandings , without the mediation of their ( own ) meanings and interpretations , and therefore they must reconcile it to it self , though they are at never so much odds among themselves , and each man within himself , about this matter of setting it to rights , even one saying this is the meaning , the other that , a third in my opinion it is so , a fourth , I think it must be either so , or so , but which he determines no more then T. D , till they have reconciled it into nothing , but an irreconcileable enmity with it self , and an occasion of irreconcilable enmity about it between themselves . And this I know not only as one of those that now see in the Lords light their dotage herein , and the wrong and crooked wayes wherein they are at work , to set that to rights , and strait , which is so already in itself , if they could let it alone , without wresting it into constructions as crooked , as they are in their conversations , but as one that was once as busie as the best of them in the same blind , fruitless , frothy work , of beating the brains about the meaning of this and that , which the Spirit only reveals to the poor in Spirit , and not to the proud , haughty Scorner , that dealeth in proud w●ath against the righteous , having been my self ( when I was where they yet are , who where I now am cannot come , but with the losse of that life they yet live , and through the death of a crosse thereunto ) looking , and skimming , and scraping among the learned Scribes , into the Scripture for the sense of it without the Spirit ; I can tell them by experience , as well as by the Light , in which it is seen , and told them by my self and many more , to what little purpose or profit , either to themselves or their people , who dea●ly pay for it , they are by the best improvment of their natural capacities Academical Parts , and such meer Animal Accomplishments , p●ying into the privities of the Scriptures , which according to I. Os. and specially T. Ds. his Principles and way of interpretation and giving meanings , is more made to patronize and partize with the transgressions of supposed Saints , then to promote the perfect purging from them in this world , which yet the Scriptures truly plead not only a possibility , but a necessity of before men die , unless they mean to die for ever , when T. D. and his abettors , implead it as a very doctrine of Devils , pleading rather ( because an impossibility of living without it ) a necessity of living in it , while in the body . Which said Doctrine of Perfectior , or full pardon from sin here , I shall have a few words about with T. D. by and by , after an Addition of some few Arguments more in proof of the universality of Gods Love in the dea●h of Christ for All , and of the gifts of his saving Grace , or Light sufficient to lead All that follow it to Life , vouchsafed to every man , and some brief Animadversion of what more our Four fore named Antagonists argue to the contrary . Arg. 8. If Christ died not for the whole world , and for All and every man in it , but for a few only : and God gave him not , A Light , to be his Salvation ( as it is said Isai. 49.6 . ) to All the ends of the Earth , All which also he calls to look to him and be saved , Isa. 45.22 . to hear him , that their souls may live to come to him , even whoever will , that they may find rest , and have of the water of life freely , Isai. 55.1 . Matth. 11.28 . Rev. 22. Then the world , and most men , who generally are damned for this very sin , even because they believe not in , hear not , look not , come not to Christ Iesus , Iohn 3.18 . Iohn 16.8 , 9. are damned for not looking to , coming to , nor believing in their Saviour , when yet they had no Saviour of theirs to look at , or come to , or believe in . But All men have a Saviour to believe in , and look to , and come to , which for not hearing , looking , nor coming to , nor believing in , they are damned ( yea this is the worlds condemnation , that light is come into it , yet the world comes not to the light ) otherwise as 't is sottish Absurdity , and lamentable mockage , to call All to look , and come to , and believe in him ; so such inconceivable cruelty , as ( Absit Blasphemia , far be it from us to think there is in God ) to damn them , upon the account of not coming , or non-believing in him : Therefore he is given a Light , a Ransome , a Saviour for All and every man. Arg. 9. If it be a lie , that Christ died for every man ( as we say he did ) and a truth , that he died but for a few only ( as they hold ) then , sith God requires A●l on pain of damnation so to believe , if every man should believe Christ died fo● him , God , on pain of damnation , requires most men to believe a lye , and damns them for believing the very truth , viz. that he died not for every of them , and for not believing that , which if they All had believed , the most of them had believed a lie . But ( Absit Blasphemia ) God damns no man for believing the Truth , or for not believing , that which if they did All believe , most of them must necessarily and unavoidab●y believe a lie . Therefore Christ did undoubtedly die for every man , and not for a few only . Arg. 10. If the Redemption and Salvation by the death and blood of Christ , which we confesse actually to extend to none , but such as actually believe , be not truly given from God to every man as his , as well as any man , so that at least every man may really have it , if he will , then either it is 1. Because Christ is not a Ransome sufficient to save All : Or 2. Because God wills and desires not that should save every man , which is sufficient so to do : Or else 3. because most men neglect that so great Salvation , and put it away from themselves , and will not have it when God would they should , and thereby judge themselves unworthy of it : Or 4. else for some other Reason . But 't is not the first , for your selves and All men confess a sufficiency of Redemption and Salvation in Christ for All men : Nor the second , for that were to make God , whose wayes are all exact and equal , so inequal in his doings , as no wise man is , to cut out a plaister as broad as a bushel to lay to a scare no broader then a shilling , or rather ( upon your Principles of unavoidble , sorer condemnation to the Reprobate part of the World , by Christs coming into it to save it , then if he had never come a Saviour into it at all ) to provide a plaister sufficient to heal the whole sore , with an intent effectually to heal some very small part of it only , but to render all the residue more outragious and farre sorer , or to pay a Ransome sufficient to redeem a thousand prisoners for debt , with intent actually to set some one at liberty , and for ever lay all the rest up closer prisoners in the Dungeon . Which absurdity , and mockage , and perfect hatred , under pretence of love too , far be it from any good man to father and fasten upon God , and from me to fasten on any good man , that in the least measure is merciful as God is merciful . Moreover Deus nil facit f●nstra . If ye say the third , ye say no otherwise then that Truth with us ( that yet ye fight against ) viz. That God , as he has provided life in his Son , so he is as truly willing All men should live , but that some will die , and would gather men unto life , save only that they themselves will not . If any other thing be the Reason , why every man may not as truly be saved by Christs death as any man , it lies in you to assign it , I know none . Therefore Christ died intentionally to save every man. Arg. 11. If All men are not put into possibility of life by Christs dying intentionally for every one of them , if themselves chuse not death ; then it could not be said , As by sin condemnation is come on All men , so justification of life is come on All men ; and that the gift of Gods Grace , and gift of God in Christ , and the benefit and blessing is every way , at least , as large , and some wayes larger and abounding , beyond the mischief and Curse that comes by the sin . But it is in effect so said , Rom. 5.15.18 : 23. Therefore All and every man is made as capable to be saved by Christ , as every man is liable to be damned by reason of the sin . Arg. 12. Christ could not be truly or properly said to be the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world , nor the Saviour of the whole world , to be given a Covenant to the People ; a Witnesse to the People ; a Leader and Commander to the People ; a Light to the Nations , Gods Salvation to the ends of the Earth , much lesse could All People in any consistency with mercy , or ( ut prius ) without foolery and mockery of most men in the midst of their remediless misery , be bid to behold him , or all the ends of the Earth be summoned with promise , yea assurance of Salvation if they do , and on pain of more cruel damnation if they do not , to look and come to him for it , and hearken to his voice ( or else be cut off ) in All things whatever he saith to them , and such like , unless he were truly , properly , and intentionally , at least , given to be All this to all Men , all the People , the whole World , and every man in it . But he is said so to be ( as abovesaid ) to All , and all People , even all ends of the Earth , &c. are on such Promises and Penalties , summoned to behold him , look , come , and hearken to him ( as aforesaid ) Isai. 42.16.45.22.49.6.55.1 , 4. Acts 3.22 , 23. Iohn 3.19 . 1 Iohn 2.12 . and in unspeakable more places . Therefore he is a Saviour , a Leader , a Light , &c. which ( in some measure at least ) savingly enlightens no lesse then every Individual . CHAP. IV. I. Os. T. Ds. I. Ts. R. Bs. and all other our common Adversaries common Exceptions are but frivolously foolish , boyish , toyish , shameful Tergiver sations , and as senseless as helpless Escapes , when they tell us the whole World , 1 Iohn 2. is meant of the Gentiles only , as in opposition to the Iews ; not only for our sins , that is , of us Iews ( say they ) but also for the sins of the whole World , that is , of the Gentiles , which division there savors of shallowne●s enough , for Iohn writes that Epistle not more peculiarly or specially to the Iewish then to the Gentile Believers ( as he must be understood to do , if their sense on that clause were true ) but promiscuously and generally to All the Saints among both , whereupon it is superscribed the Generall Epistle of Iohn : But the distinction there made relates to all Men in the World , B●lievers and Vnbelievers , of what Nation soever , for All whom , while they are yet sinners , enemies by wicked works , he died , and became a Ra●s●m● , a Sacrifice , a Light , that All Men in him might believe , and thorough faith in his Light might be saved ( quoad posse ) i. e. potentially , or if they will , whether actually or ( quoad esse ) they ever are saved , yea or nay ; Though he prayed not for the world , as it lies in enmity and wickedn●ss , but for such only as come out of the World , and the wickednesses thereof , and that in all Ages believe on his Name thorough the one Word , as Iohn 17.20 . Neither pray I for thes● alone , i. e. that do now believe , but for All that ever shall believe , &c. that they may be one in us . For ( as mysterious a Riddle as this is to our misty-minded Rabbies , who cannot see Wood for Trees ) yet Christ can be truly said to die for men in some cases and conditions ( qua talibus ) whom ( qua talibus ) as in the same cases and conditions considered , he cannot pray for , that ( in that state ) they may be one with him and God , who can have no unity with iniquity ; he stands , in esse actuali , actually offered up a Ransome , a Propitiation for the sins of the whole world , even in that state , while it lies in enmity and wickedness , as yet unreconciled to God , by whose giving himself that way , All men may be reconciled to God through faith in him , whether ever they will be reconciled , yea or nay : but ( howbeit he may wish so well to his Adversaries , as to die for them , that they , in that way of faith , might live through him , and may wish also that they would believe , that so in that way they might be forgiven , yet ) he stands not actually , nor immediately , an Advocate , making actual intercession for any , that they ( immediately , or in their present state ) may stand accepted with the Father , but for such only as already actually do believe ; Wherefore Iohn sayes ( with appropriation of i● to himself , and other Saints , as are found confessing and repenting fr●m their sins ) We have an Advocate with the Father , even Iesus Christ , &c. but of All Men ( without exception , without limitation of Christ to himself and other Saints ) the same is the Propitiatio● , not for our sins only , i. e. : ours who do already own , and have believed in him , but also for the sins of the whole W●●l● ; i. e. for All other mens sins , as well as ours , whether ever they own and believe in him so farre , as to have any actual benefit by him , yea or nay . Besides , if we grant them , whose sense on it is otherwise ( as we are free to do , it being a T●uth al●o , though not the di●ect distinction there intended ) their own distinction of that clause , not ours only , but also of the whole World , into the Iews and Gentiles , their own distinction is enough to ●●●f●●nd themselves , as to the Question in hand ; for the whole World being divided into Iews and Gentiles , Iews and Gentiles are Termes comprehen●● and conclusive of the whole World , and of no lesse then every individual 〈◊〉 therein as well as , any man. And as for their Some of all Nations , some of all Ports , some Iews , some Gentiles , and among Gentiles of every Country , Tongue , Kindred , and Condition some , not All of All Kindreds , Countrys , Conditions , &c. not each man between this and the utmost parts of the Earth ( as the literal sense of that phrase , All the ends of the Earth , imports ) but here and there some , the Elect , a few in comparison of the rest , that are left without any Saviour , or saving Grace , or sufficient Light to lead them to life , and so ( as personally decreed thereto ) left to perish doubly , for not believing ( Secundum te O Sacerdos ) in a Saviour , when they never had one ; The People , i. e. some ( a poor pittance among All People ) not All the People without exception , not the whole World , but that whole small part of Elect Ones , elected personally out of that whole , a thousand to one whereof are as personally from of old for eve● remedilesly Reprobated ; and such like sowre stuffe , and dark dribling , as is found in this case among the Divines ( As age ) away with it , it is unsavory , and stinks as a dunghill of doctrine , and becomes in the sight of All , but the blind , as the blood of a dead man that hath no life in it at all , and as little of that which is called common Sense and Reason , and unworthy to have so much time spilt upon it , as to be too particularly talk'd with , or of any other Return , then to be returned back , as deceit , together with its Father , by whole sale into the deep , from whence it came ; only there might be enough pickt out of it , whereby to shew the shallownesse of its Authors . We know well enough it is but few , and some of every Nation ; Tongue , Kindred , and People , that are actually redeemed unto God , but it is not because there is not Redemption as truly intended as tendred to them , as well as sufficiently purchased for them , but because they put it away from themselves , by not turning to the teachings of that Light , Word , and Grace of God that is nigh in their hearts , and brings it nigh unto them , else All , even Gentiles , as well as well as Iews , Heathens , and Indians , as well as English men and Christians ( so called ) and among each of these , All , as well as Any of them ▪ ha●e some measure of that Grace nigh them , which in the least measure * is enough and sufficient to help and heal them , were they as continually and earnestly within attendant on it , as they commonly and eagerly ever turn outwards from it ( whereby it becomes to them of no effect ) when God either without , or within , or both , calls upon All ends of the Earth ( which word cannot be exclusive of Any , but must be conclusive of every Individual ) to look in unto it , and in it to look unto himself , and to behold and hear him , whom he hath given as a Guide , a Light , to shew good and evil , a Law , a Witness for God against them , when they do evil , within themselves , a Leader and Commander to all people . Object . 'T is not to All People , but to the People , an indefinite phrase that hath a restrained sense . Rep. The indefinite phrase here hath an enlarged sense , and is Aequivalent to an universal , Isa. 55. the People , v. 4. answers to , H● every one , v. 1. and and if it were to be restrained , there ought to have been some restrictive , exceptive expression , but there is an expresse enlargement , and I may as well ●●mit it in other places ( as the Churles with the evil Instruments of their own inventions do in these places , so as when God sayes oft in the Psalm●s , and elsewhere , Beh●ld he cometh to judge the World in righteousness , and the People with equity , to say , God will not judge All People , nor the whole World , and every Individual , but some few People only in Righteousness and Truth , and so coop the wrath and judgement of God up into a corner , and prate it as perversly into a pinfold , as the Priests of those piteous Principles do his Mercy , who prate of a peremptory predestination ( without respect to sin , or at least any other then Adams personal Act ) of most persons , before they had any being , remeditesly and unchangeably to damnation . Object . What then do the Quakers deny Gods unchangeablenesse in his Decree ? Rep. Gods Decree I deny not to be unalterable , but blind Priests mistake that unchangeable Decree of his , which is to be toward men , as they toward him , merciful to the upright , wrathful to the froward and wicked ; to shew himself in his love as a Friend , Father , Forgiver for ever , even inalterably , unchangeably , world without end , to the penitent that turn to him , and come to him by Christ , in his Light , keeping his Commandements ; and as unalterably , unchangeably , without variation or shadow of turning that immutable Mind and Will of his , to shew himself in his wrath everlastingly , eternally to the finally impenitent sinners , who are found living and dying in that seed which is unchangeably reprobated from him : So whom he loves he loves to the end , and whom he hates he hates to the end , that is , for ever ; but those whom from eternity he hath thus immutably decreed to love , and own , and honour to eternity , are the righteous ones that honour him , the Godly in all Ages , whoe're they are , which are those only that he chuses to himself , Psalm 4. ( whether foreseen who they will be in time by him , or not , that is nothing to the purpose ) and whom he thus , as immutably from all eternity decrees to disregard , hate , and reject to eternity , are the seed of evil doers , that lightly despise him , who are never to be renowned ; so whatever changes fall out among men , who are sometimes better , sometimes worse , and among their states , which are some good , some bad , there is no change in the mind of God , what ever the thoughts of mens hearts are , his unchangeable Counsel stands the same , his Purpose and Decree the same , which is from eternity , to own the good , and refuse the bad , to justifie the walkers in his Light , Christ Jesus , and judge all that rebel against it ; so he doth not change his Will , but his unchangeable Will to persons is , to be unchangeably affected to them in either love or hatred , respectively , as they respectively are found at any time the Subjects of sin or not , and so consequently objects of either the one affection mutually , or the other ; as if a King Decrees after the manner of the Medes and Persians , inalterably , that his People shall have as they do , he that does well shall be beloved , and he that does ill and repents not from it , shall be hated , hanged , one and the same person may ( at different times ) be under the two different affections , viz. now under the favour , and now under the displeasure of the King , as he does well or ill , and by and by love and in his favour again , as he repents , or else as not repenting be so under his hatred as to be hanged , yet the Kings Mind , Will , and Decree , stands the same unchangeable as it ever did . So in the case in hand , there 's Muta●i● Rei non Dei , a change of the case of mans will and manners , and ( accordingly ) of his state , or standing the object of either Gods love or hatred , under either his favour or displeasure , but Gods Mind , Will , Decree , Counsel , Love and Hatred , stands unchangeably and everlastingly to the same Subjects that were the Objects thereof at first ; viz. whether sinners or Saints : And thus God did not at all change in his Decree , Mind , Will and Purpose , to perpetuate the Priesthood to Eli's house for ever , though he once said it should con●inue for ever , and after said , But now be it far from me , forasmuch as his purpose was at first to continue it , in case he honoured God in it , and his unchangeable Counsel is ever this , viz. That those who honour me , I will honour , but those that despise me shall be lightly regarded , 1 Sam. 2.30 . Ob. This gives the glory of Salvation not to God , but to mans will , which is All in All , then in the busine●s . Rep. It 's not for want of ignorance , that the narrow noddles think thus , for Originally and Supremely still , the glory is to the universal Grace of God , who in his love freely to all men sends his Son a Light into the world , and by him puts all , as well , as some into a capacity to live if they list , and if any die then , Gods Grace and Love is nere the less for all that ; and though secondarily and immediately the case be left by the Lord to depend on mans choice , as it was in the first Adam ( though yet I know such as are perfectly restored by the second , stand a little surer then he did , I say , when perfected in his life ) yet if man chuse life and live , when life and death are set before him ( as they are ) God is no more rob'd of the glory of his goodness , then he would have been by Adams standing , if he had stood , when God set him in aequi librio , to stand or fall , and made him upright , as he has done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not him only , but mankind , till they go out from him after their own inventions , Eccl. 7.29 . and that was not one jot at all ; for though the shame of Adams sinning fell justly on himself , yet the glory of his standing would have been to God , who made him able to stand , had he stood , neither would Adam ( had he stood ) have plaid the fool so as to fall a praising and thanking himself for the life and happiness he would have had , but God , who in his love and bounty originally stated him in it , though for his misery he may ( as all men also ) most justly thank none but himself , and the Devil : E.G. If I should see two men ready to starve for want of money to trade with , and out of true equal bowels of pity to them both , should freely bestow an equal stock of money on them , or if not equal , yet so much to each at least , that each ( using and improving well what he hath ) may come to live like a man ; one of them plays the good Husband with what he has , and thrives , whom shall he thank , when unavoidably else he had perisht ? for the money he had given him , and now hath ? Would you not think him a fool to fall a thanking himself , never thinking on the man that first set him up ? of whom ( unless besides his wits ) he would say , I am bound to thank not my self , that I now live , when my fellow starves , but that honest man that took pity on me and him too , if he he had but used what he had ● T'other spends all his portion in riotous living , and is as likely to starve as ere he was , for want of improving what I gave him , whom shall this man thank for his present poverty ? me that gave him whereon to live , or himself who lavish't it ? every wise man will see my love was nere the less , and though he perish , yet the thank that he might have liv'd , belongs to anothers bounty , and the thank , shame , sorrow of his own woe to himself alone ; O Israel thy destruction is of thy self , but in me is thy help , Hos. 13.9 . That Iudas is damn'd , he may thank himself , who sold his Master , as Esau his birth-right and blessing , that Peter and Iacob live for ever , the thank of this belongs only unto the Grace of God. Moreover , if Christ who is often , either expresly or implicitly so call'd , be not a Saving Light to the whole world , the Leader , and Commander , and Witness , for and from God to All people , without exception of any individuals among any people , or in any Nations , I would fain know of any one of these ; 1. How it can be truth , which themselves are fain to confess , That God will and doth in all Nations , out of every Tongue , Kindred , and People , effectually save some ? And 2. In what manner , or by what way , means , Light , or Leader , he leads them few of all Families of the Earth to Life , whom he doth save , if it be not by that Light , Law , and Spirit of Life that is from Christ , some of which is in every , as well as any conscience , sith its evident , that neither All nor half those Nations , in each of which some are saved , have not the Scripture or Letter which they call the only Saving Light , the Way , the Rule , Foundation , the most effectual means , &c. and in a manner every thing , which the Letter it self sayes Christ only is : Indeed I find I. O. telling us such a tale of the outward Text , as if in respect of the giving out of that only by the motion of his Spirit , through some Holy Penmen , Christ were the Saviour and Light of the world , and of All men in it , that are at all savingly enlightned , and saved . * We confess ( quoth he ) Christ is the Light of the World , and so of All men in it , because that Light shining in the holy Scripture , is sufficient savingly to enlighten All men , to whomsoever by the Providence of God it shall come : But ( to bespeak him in his own Language to us , more proper to himself and his Followers then to us ) Quod hoc ad Fanaticorum delirium ? 〈…〉 . What 's this to that piece of dotage of himself and his Fellow Doctors , who deny the vouchsafing of any saving Illumination to most men , yea , to very many to one in the world ? scilicet , a little deeper discovery of their dotage ; Scriptura nempe 〈…〉 omnia ; belike I. O. deems All the ends of the earth to be so fully filled with his adored Transcripts and Texts of Scripture , that by them Christ saves , and enlightens All he saves , which are ( say they ) in every Nation some ; whereas ( Ridiculum Caput ) who knows not that the Scripture or writing is so sa● from appearing in every dark corner of the earth ( where I affirm the true Light shines in every conscience , so that there 's nor Speech , nor Language where it shines not , and the Voice of Christ the Light may not 〈◊〉 heard ) that the Text hath scarce been heard or 〈◊〉 of , bu●in some few corners of this ( so call'd ) Christian world , which yet more idoli●ing 〈◊〉 only loving the Letter , and hating the Light , are , for all their Letter , as much as any , in the unfruitful deeds of darkness also , even until now . Oh the Inanity of these men ( call'd Divines ) in the matters of God and the Gospel ! as if the Letter only were that Voice of Christ which is every where heard by some ; that Light , which in every Nation savingly enlightens some ; that Rule , which All the World is required to walk by , in order to peace , and on pain of damnation , which Letter yet was never read or seen ( perhaps not so much as heard of ) in half the world , the only rule of the whole whereof it is to be ( say they ) and not the Light of Christ in the Conscience at any hand , the Expansion , Beams , and Rays of which ( but that few heed it , and the darkness comprehends it not ) reach into the darkest inmost corners of each 〈◊〉 Conscience , throughout each corner of the whole Creation . The Letter is not in , every Nation to save some out of each , or if it were , and be the Saving Light , whether men walk by it or not , 't would be a Light to every as well as any man in each Nation , and so saving Light ( though not used ) would ( contrary to I. Os. tale ) be vouchsafed by Christ to every man in every Nation ; but the Light is not only in every Nation , but in every heart , in each Nation ; and because it is so , though few are saved by it , because few heed it , yet every man may be saved by it as well as any man. Arg. 13. To conclude this then , I confess that 't is either the Letter that these Scribes talk for , or that Light we talk for , and they against , which is that one only universal , unchangeable , infallible standing Law , Light , Witness , Word , Guide , Rule , Touchstone , and saving way to Life ; in respect of which , Christ is said to be the Leader , Commander , and Witness from God to All people , the Light of the whole world , and consestuently of All men in it . But 't is not the Letter , therefore 't is the Light we speak of , in fuller proof of this last , and disproof of the former : Consider the Rule , Law , Light , &c. and means of Life and Salvation ( what ever it is ) must be adequate in its expansion and extent , to the men that ought to be ruled , guided led to life by it , on pain of further , perishing and cursing if they be not . But the Light of Christ in each Conscience is so , teaching there whatever , God requires of each person , as to his own peace , and what God in the doing thereof will accept him in , and the Letter not so ; therefore the said Light , and not the Letter , is that by which Christ is Gods Witness to the world , and All peoples Leader ( if they will follow him ) unto life . The Plaster should be adequate to the sore , and not short of it ( as the Light is not , but the Letter is in its extent , in respect to all ends of the earth ) else there 's as much folly in this extreme , as I said above , there would be in the other ( it being as little wisdome to be too short , as to over-reach ) for a man to make a Plaster no broader then a penny , for a wound as broad as a Crown piece , as 't is to cut a Plaster of the compass of a bushel , for a sore no broader , then a six pence . That Rule , Law , Light , and Word , by which All are to live , and be judged , and tryed , and for nor living by which to be condemned , must universally be extended to All and every man , those who have a Copy thereof without , and those who have no such Copy , but are without it ; for Lex & papulus cujustex est ; Verbum & hi● qum●um officium est illud ●●dire 〈◊〉 obedire , Lux &c illuminandi , mensura & Mersierandum , Regula & prebandum debent esse adaequata : The Law , and they to whom it s given , as that by which they must live or die for breaking it , the W●rd , and th●se that are bound is hear and obey it ; the Light , and such ●● are to see by it ; the Rule , and such men , as well as manners , as are to be measured , and 〈◊〉 by it , on peril of damnation , if not agreeing with it , must be so adequate , that the Rule , Law , Light , Word , must by the Providence of God be made to reach and extend to the u●most corner in all ages , wherein the men to whom it s given are abiding , that they may see it , whether that be the Letter without , or the Light within ; so that if that in the Conscience we assert so to be , be that saving Light , Law , Means , Rule , &c. then it must be by the Law-giver ordered to come within the cognizance of every man in the world , who is to live or dye , and ( as he keeps or breaks it ) to stand or fall by it for even ; if the Scripture be it , then that must be ordered to come as universally to All and every man ; otherwise , As that King or Parliament might be said to mock the Nation , and make it miserable , that should make a certain Law , which whoever keeps shall live , and who keeps not shall be hanged , and yet , keeps that Law within the little corner of that City of Westminster , and and never suffers or orders the Copy of it to come to the sight of others , neither in our known Mother-Tongue , nor yet so much as in an unknown Tongue , in one of which at least our English Laws , as much as they are lapt up , not a little from the cognizance of poor people among the Learned Lawyers only ( as J. O. laps his lying Labours , learned Leagu●es , and loud Challenges against the Quakers , from the Lai●ks ( as he thinks ) within the cloud of his Latine Language ) or as that man who should in a dark night hang out one single candle in a Lanthorn only for all London to see by , or he that should preach at Pauls-Cross , and command all ends of England , at their peril , to hear his voice from thence , might truly be call'd a Mocker . So ( to use I. Os. own words again , Ex. 2. S. 27. ) Si Scripturam vel ab omnibus percipī nolit , & tamen omnes qui doctrinam e●us non observant vel ideo condemnas ; Quid ni millies mille miseres homunciones Deus per tale Verbum , Medium , Regulam , Legem , Lucem , ludos facere ( absit blasphemia ) oestimandus sit ? If God give out a Law , Light , Rule , Word of Life to all , which he will condemn men f●r not obeying , and yet would not have it by All so much as to be seen ; why may not God be thought ( which were blasphemy to think ) to mock millions of men , and make them miserable without their personal default , by such a Word , Means , Rule , Light , or Law , &c. which instead of going forth of Sion and Ierusalem , to the whole earth , is confin'd within the little Hill of Sion itself ? But now the Light within the Letter calls all to , is in All men , the Letter without not so universal , but extending to very few ; therefore the Light within , not the bare Letter without , is that saving Means , Word , Rule , Law , &c. besides , if the Letter were the Law , Light , Word , and Rule ( which yet was never seen by most in most Nations , then that respect to Persons and Nations , which was ( once ) more to the Iews then any people upon earth , as to the giving out of a meer outward Letter of his Law to beep , which respect was ended in Christ , who brake down that Partition Wall between Iew and Gentile , Eph. 20 is hereby set up again which woe be to him that builds , when God hath destroyed ▪ bu● up again , that must not come , for though he once gave his Laws and Statutes to Israel in an outward Letter and Copy , which thing he did not do to any people else , nor other Nation ( if I. O. will believe the Scripture ) nor doth to any Nation at all to this day , at their sole rule and guide , yet of a truth I perceive , saith Peter , Act. 10. 34. 35. ( and he who is not blinded may perceive it also ) that God is now no respecter of Nations one above another , nor of persons in the Nations , so as to give his Statutes , Judgements , Laws , Rule , and saving means of Life ( if the Letter were so ) to one Nation or Person , and not in any measure to another , but in every Nation he that feareth God ( whose fear is to depart from what evil his Light in the conscience makes manifest ) and worketh righteousness ( which none do who live not by that , and all do who live by it , for sin is no other then the transgression of that Law ( which is the Light ) is accepted with him . Arg. 14. Again , let me argue with thee I. O. out of thy own words ; if others will not answer affirmatively , and assent to this as truth , yet thou I. O. must , who asserts it for truth thy self ; for this Argument , in ●o●idem verbis , is no other then thine own ; for with reference to Ioh. 1.9 . the very place that we argue the self-same from , thou thy self , though intentionally against us , yet unawares really arguest for us on this wife ; viz. The Light and Illumination mentioned in this place , Ioh. 1.9 . are Spiritual ; without all controversie , and pertaining to the Regeneration by Grace , not Natural , and so pertaining to the Creation , for in the same sense * in which men are said to be darkness , are they said to be enlightned , else the Apostles speech would be aequivocal ; but men are not said onely Spiritually , but universally also to be darkness ; therefore are they by Christ not spiritually only , but universally also enlightned . And as Contrariorum eadem est ratio , so Contrariorum contraria est ratio , not only in , the same sense in some respects , but also in other respects , in the very contrary sense to that , wherein men are darkned by the Devil , are they enlightned , by Christ ; but All mankind is not only spiritually and universally , but also damnably darkned by the Devil ; therefore mankind is not only spiritually and universally , but also savingly enlightned by Christ. From what hath been said and shewed above then I affirm , that the Grace and Light in the conscience , which in some measure or other is from God and Christ given in common to All men , is not only universal , but saving ; and though most are by it no more then accused , reproved , condemned , and left without excuse , and not ●astified nor saved , yet there wants not sufficiency in it to save , and that men are not saved , but mostly condemned by it , 't is only because they answer not the Mind of God revealed in it , but love the darkness more then it , which they hate to come to ( as Christ saves ) because their deeds are evill : whereas did they but glorifie him answerably to what he requires of them , who no● exacts nor expects from any the doing more of his Mind and Will , then what he one time or other manifesteth to them to be his Will concerning them in their own consciences , they should not be without excuse , nor stand condemned in Gods sight , but be accepted , justified , and saved from the wrath which comes only on the Children of disobedience , it being the Power of God as sufficient to the excuse and Salvation of those from sin and wrath that obey the measure of it in themselves , as to subject those to accusation , rejection , judgement , wrath and condemnation , that rebel against it . To all the abovesaid Arguments therefore I shall subject this one , after the prosecution of which , in proof of the sufficiency of that Light to save , which is given in common to All men , I shall take some notice of R. Bs. and I. Ts. arguings to the contrary . Arg. 15. That Light which ( rebel'd against ) 〈◊〉 sufficient to accuse and condemn , and render a man guilty , reprobate , or reproved , is ( if obeyed ) sufficient to excuse , clear , justifie , save from condemnation , and render approved . But the Light in all is sufficient to condemn all that rebell against it , therefore to save , as abovesaid , such as obey it . The Minor is your own ▪ the Major I shall proceed in proof of . And here since I am so neer it , I shall take occasion to refell that foolish conceit and dream of our Divines , in which both thou T. D. & I. O. I. T. R. B. are all Four found ( for in most of this main matter of the light ye run parallel , and are coincident , except now and then a crosse whet each to other ) concerning the non-sufficiency of the Light to save ( however improved ) though yielded to be sufficient to leave excuselesse and condemn , for here ye dance between these two Stages still in your stickles with the Qua. against the Light , cutting capers to and fro with your legs acrosse , and sliding out of one f●orry shift into another ; when they tell you the true Light of God ( which is but one , and that not natural , but supernatural , though in never so many different degrees in mens hearts ) is common to All , ye yield ( for ye cannot stand against it ) that it is so , but then it is not saving ; when they prove it saving , ye yield it is saving , but then not common , which that it is both , I have shewed above against you All ; some words only here as to that absurdity , it is sufficient to leave man inexcusable , if not obeyed , and to condemn him , but not to save , justifie , or render him accepted , if obeyed . That the whole body of the Gentiles are enlightened ( and that by Christ ) thou T. D. dost sometimes confess in Terminis ( as I have shewed above , though at other times thou denyest it ) but thou addest p. 3. 1 Pamp. not by Christ with the knowledge of salvation ( alias secundaunte ) with a light sufficient to save , Salvation is of the Iews ( i.e. ) among such as have the letter only , and by the law of the letter without ; I speak but thy sense p. 3. 1 Pamp. I. O. also denies this same light ( however attended to ) to be sufficient to bring to justification of life or salvation ; that still he ascribes to his only , all sufficient Greek and Hebrew Text ; , and outward Scriptures , Ex. 4. S. 17. Lumen hoc , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare , sed in rebus omnbius divinis finem ultimum quod attinet mera tenebra & cae●itas : So S. 20. Sufficientiam quidem habet ad Antapologesian , ad salutem non-item : This Light indeed is sufficient to accuse and condemn , but not so to save . So T. D. again p. 40.1 Pamp. natural light ( so ye call it still ) is to this purpose , to leave men without excuse , Rom. 1.20 . so that they cannot say , as we suppose the Heathens might , Had we known of a remedy for our misery , we would have used it ; But as for salvation , many Ages and Generations neuer had one offer of it ; and among those who hear the Gospel , it is offered to more then it is intended . R. B. and I. T. say the same , p. 40. The Gentiles light by Nature ( so he calls it ) though insufficient to direct for Iustification and Salvation , yet was useful for two ends . 1. To restrain from sin . 2. Besides this end God hath another , that they might be inexcusable who sinned against the light in them , and God might be justified in his Sentence and Iudgement upon them , Rom. 1.20 . that th●y might be without excuse , who held the Truth [ Mark how the light in all is called the Truth , which men withhold in unrighteousness , therefore it must be the Righteousness of God it self that is revealed from Heaven and justifies ] in unrighteousness , and when they knew God glorified him not as God , neither were thankful , but were filled with unrighteousness , though they knew the judgement of God , that they that commit such things are worthy of death , v. 29.30 . Whence it is , that Gods judgement is proved to be according to Truth , Rom. 2.2 . and God found to be true , though every man a lyar : Ignorance of the law [ Mark again how they call it the law , by which is the knowledge of sin , the transgression , of which is sin , which Paul calls , spiritual , holy , just , and good , these men all but natural , and sometimes no better then diabolical ] being not to be pleaded by them , that sin against the innate light of their own spirits ; forasmuch as that fact must needs be voluntary , which is done against the knowledge and judgement of a mans own conscience . Thus far these men of the Light within , it condemns ( say they ) but cannot save , accuses , cannot excuse . Rep. Monstrum Horendum , &c. cui lumen ademptum ! What are our Ministers become Monsters now adayes , that take on them the name of Seers for poor people , and yet have never an eye to see the Truth withall themselves ? Is there any Law in the World that ( being broken ) brings penalty , accusation , cursing , judgement , or condemnation upon the Transgressors , that does not as well hold guil●less , acquit , clear , justifie , and save from the said cursing and condemnation , its obeyers and observers ? 1. Consider its impossible that any light should leave without excuse , and condemn a man , when sinned against , and not excuse , justifie , and keep out of condemnation , when it 's answered : for what I wot can condemn that man who walks up in exact obedience to that law or measure of light ( be it never so little ) which is lent him in particular to live by ? Where there is no Law nor Light at all , there is no sin ( imputed , Rom. 5.12 . ) where no Law is broken there is no transgression to condemnation , for such sin is Anomia , no other then the transgression of the Law , and that in such particulars only , wherein it is made known , for to him that knows to do good , and doth it not , to him it is sin , Iam. 17. not to him that never did , nor could ; for if Abimelech had took to himself Abraham's Wife for his own ( not knowing but that she was his Sister only as she said ) he had been clear , and not guilty , nor had sin been impured to him , or laid to his charge to condemnation , though the fact had been sin in it self , yet not sin unto his d●amnation : Whereupon he pleads , when the Lord comes by the Light o the thing upon him , Wilt thou slay a righteous Nation ? In the integrity of my heart , and innocency of my ●ands have I done this ; and God answers , Yea I know thou didst it in the integrity of thy heart , Gen. 20.4 , 5 , 6. Can that possibly leave men without excuse or plea for themselves in their condemnation , when God comes to enter into judgement with them , that must be understood and believed by them , never to have put them by the best improvement thereof , and attendance to it ( as I. O. and T. D. say , the light of God in all does not , utcunque cui attendatur ) so much as in possibility of Salvation , nor was sufficient ( had they never rebelled against it ) to have excused and acquitted them in the sight of God ? cannot they that have no Light and Grace , more then what ( had they obeyed and answered it ) would not have rendred them accepted in his sight , they being also personally , particularly , peremptorily predestinated to be damned , and to be disobedient to the light , that they might be damned ( as our Divines say from 1 Pet. 2.8 . Iude 3.4 . ) when God comes to plead in no other but a righteous way against them , and to damn them for that sore appointed disobedience to it , and to reckon and reason with them thus , Why would you die , and not live ? A : I live , I had much rather ye should have lived then died , but that ye would your selves destroy your selves , when in me was help , and I would have helped you , and therefore sent my Son , a Light , to lead you to life , not to condemn , but to save you , had you walked in it , for hating and want of walking in which alone it is , that ye now must be condemned for ever ; had I not sent you light , and spoken to you by my self and Son , you had had no sin ; but now seeing ye knew my Will and did it not , in the doing of which ye should have entred my Kingdome , but stopt your ears , closed your eyes , despised my counsel , set at naught all my reproof ; to you this is sin , for which he have no cloak , plea , &c. nor excuse , or if you have let us hear it . I say , cannot such plead again , Lord it is true , thou art out Soveraign , and mayest do with thy own as a Potter with his clay , and dash us to pieces at thy pleasure , but thou art also a God of righteousness and Truth , who hast said , thou wilt do right , as the Judge of all the earth , and thou wilt not do that thy self which thou damnest others for doing , as thou didst Pharoah for requiring men to make such a tale of brick as they had not sufficiency of straw for ; and we hope thou wilt not damn us for not doing what thou know'st we never could , being never sufficiently impowered by thy self , & we trust thou wilt not condemn us ( at least not with the sorer condemnation ) as accessary to our own death , and for not coming to Christ that we might have life , and for want of coming to the saving knowledg of thy Self , Mind , and Will , and for not obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus , and for nor coming to him in his light , and not believing in him as our Saviour , and for want of improving our talents to the utmost to our salvation , for non-improvement of which alone , and for non-obedience to which Light and Gospel alone , and non-belief only in which Christ , thou now tellest us we must perish , which Gospel had we obeyed , which Christ had we believed in as our , which saving knowledge of thee if we had had , which talent or talents had we improved to the best , we should not have perisht , but have had everlasting life ; fora●much as it was told us for truth from thee by these that say they are thy Ministers ( if they did not lie ) and however they made us believe so , that we were never put into any capacity for life and salvation by all that best Grace that thou vouchsafedit to u● : they told us , not only that many Ages and Generations never had one offer of salvation from thee , but also , that in these very Nations where thy Gospel , rich Grace , and large Love ( as they call it at least ) is proclaimed and held forth , in words , proffers , preachings , and pretences to all , yet there is not one of an hundred ( that is , as they say , no more then the personally elected ones , which are very few also , as they say , in comparison of the rest , that were a certain determinate , but much more numberlesse number also , as unchangeably reprobated from everlasting , without reference to good or evil foreseen to be done by them in time ) that the salvation so universally offered in thy name , was ever so truly intended to by thee as it was tendred ; and that the Saviour of the World , of whom they say , He came to save not the righteous , but sinners and ungodly ones , to seek out that which is lost , and of whom they say , Thou in thy love sentest him , not to condemn , but save the World , was sent to save none but that foresaid few , set number of elect ones , of which number we could find little ground to hope we were ( sith an hundred to one were not ) any more then if an hundred were sentenced to die , and but one of them to be saved , and a Pardon should be proclaimed to them all conditionally , that every man believed for himself , that he were the man to whom the Pardon is intended , any one man could have ground of confidence , that himself was he ; and so we were quite discouraged by the Preachers of thy grace from believing the Salvation to be intended to us , since an hundred to one it was not ; and they told us , that the said Saviour did not die for all , but for a few , even the said choice ones , whereupon , though he was held forth to us all , to be believed in , as the common Salvation , in thy revealed Will ( as they call it ) on pain of eternal condemnation to every one of us , that should not believe in him , as our Lord , and our God , and Saviour , and with promises or eternall life to us all , conditionally we would all so believe ; yet we could not see how this could rationally hang together , or how we could all truly have believed such a thing , every man of us for himself ( without the most of us should have believed a lie , and we thought , whatever they said , that thou wouldst have us all believe no more then the Truth , and not have any of us believe , much lesse be damned for not believing a lie ) we could not see , though they bad us every one believe in Christ as ours , how the most of us had a Christ to believe in as ours , sith they told us al●o , he was not intended to all to whom he is offered , but to a very few even of them , & since we were by themselves , who bade us believe in him , every of us as our Salvation , bad to believe this doctrine also , on pain of being held Armenians , Socinians , and Hereticks in the Church , that he did not offer himself a ransome for all ( as the Scripture in plain terms sayes he did ) but as much as be is offered to us all , yet he offered himself not for all , but only for the foresaid few ; and that by A●l and every one in the Scripture , and the lost ones , and sinners , and ungodly , and the whole world , which he is said to die for , we must at no hand understand A●l indeed , nor think that thy meaning was as thy words imported , nor according to the literal sense of them , for then we might mistake thee ; but that by All and every one , the whole world , thou meanest but a very few only , and by sinners and ungodly , thy Elect ones only , neither could we see ( upon the account of their personal , particular principles ) as universal as thy tenders of Christ to us all were , or at least theirs in thy name , that we could possibly believe the truth , if we should all have believed in him as ours , or that we could all have a share in him ; and we saw , that it being so , that he was not intended to be a Saviour to every man to whom he is offered , some men had no Saviour to believe in , as their , and for ought we saw , 't was an hundred to one but we might be the men , and to believe it that he was ours , we had no ground from their doctrine for such a Faith , and so might if we had , yea must most of us , if we had believed it , have believed a lye ; and tho sayest , thou wilt damn men for not believing the truth , and wilt thou now damn all us for believing the truth ? for he was not intended by thee , if our Ministers did not belye thee to us , to be our Saviour who are Reprobates , and we did believe him not to be so , according as it proves , and so our Faith was of the truth , and if we all had believed it , that he died for every of us , it had been a lye ( if our learned Leaders did not lye ) and wilt thou now damn us for not believing that , which if we had believed , all of us , an hundred to one , but the most of us must have believed a lye , and that which was not so ? if we had believed it we had been deceived , for 't was not so , it their doctrine be true ; and now we did not believe it , we are to be condemned , because we believe not in thy Son , and apply him not every one to our selves , in particular , to whose Salvation he was never appointed , but in thy unalterable Decree before ever we were born ( though offered to us a ours upn equal terms ( as they say ) with the Elect , whose only in particular be●is ) designed altogether to another purpose , even to be the Salvation of some few , but the unavoidable further condemnation of us Reprobates , and only to leave us the more excuseless in our suffering of it . And howbeit its true , we did not obey the Gospel , nor do thy will , we must need confess , in order unto life , yet it was never savingly nor sufficiently manifested to us in all our lives ( as , they said ) nor was any measure of that true Light in which is the Life , nor one grain of that ( as our Divines told us ) which is sufficient for us to bring us to life vouchsaf'd , but a Natural Light , in attending to which , had we ever so well heeded or improved it , 't would not have helpt us , imparted to us only , a certain common Grace and Light ( as they told us ) which had we answered , it could have avail'd us nothing , as to Salvation ; and a Talent , which had we traded with ( as they tell us ) and doubled , it ●ad encreased into but more of the same kind , and common sort , not obtain'd any . Special , nor ( what ere the Scripture seems to say to the contrary , which we poor ignorants durst not presume to walk by our sense of , but to take , as interpreted by our Textmen and Churchmen ) have let us into thy joy . And whereas thou swearest thou wouldst not have had us died , but much rather lived if we would , had we but known indeed , as we never did ( sith we were told that was Free-will , a most fearful damnable doctrine ) that we had had but Arbitrium Liberatum , a freed will vouchsafed us from thee , whereby to chuse life , when life and death was set before us , or but a power wrought in us from thee to have will'd and done what thou requiredst , we might happily have chosen Life , and have come and to turn'd thee , then we had either turned to thee , or else been utterly inexcusable ( we confess ) and thy wayes had been as equal as thou sayest they are , and our blood had been altogether on our own heads , and our destruction of our selves alone ; had there been but any of that sufficient help that is in thee vouchsafed to us from thee , it would habe been tryed then whether we would have turned to thee or no : But alas , Lord , thou know'st we were told ( and we thought it our duty on pain of damnation to take all for truth that our Church-men , and School-men , and learned Doctors , and well read men in the Scriptures , and Unviersity-made Minister told us ) that all men had not , and that few have so much as sufficient Light or power at all to will or do , or think good communicated to them from thee ; we know indeed that without thee nothing can be done , and that all mans sufficiency to good must come from thee : But now thou queriest of us , why we did not do thy will , and wilt judge us for the neglect of it ; we beseech thee Lord consider and pity us , we never knew yee that we were under power and possibility , form the most , and best , and greatest measure of ability , Grance and Light given to us to know , or do that will , thou now art going to require with vengeance the violation of at our hands ; for if it were so , as some said indeed ( viz. the Qua. seeming also to bring Scripture for it ) that we and all men have , or had , though n●ne of our selves , yet some , and so much in our selves of it , as we should have stood justified , accepted , uncondemned in improving , and not have had that sin thou sayest we have now no cloak for ; had we known it , we hope we should have done according to it , but being out of hope of having strength to overcome , we sate still in di●couragement and despair , for our Ministers told us , the Qua. were lyar's and seducers , not to be believed , and their doctrine damuable ; ou● Ministers belyed thee to us , as a hard Master , reaping where thou hast not sowed , and gathering where thou hast not strawed , and requiring that of us , even that we should turn to thee and live , which thou ( as they say ) dost not enable by Light and Grace enough , or suitable thereto , scarce one of a thousand , and so we were disheartned from trading with the talent we had , and hid , and laid it not out , as believing we had as good do nothing at all , as nothing to the purpose ; and upon many more such like considerations as there , seeing we were but-mocked by our Ministers , telling us of Life , and tendring it to us , yet telling us as their faith , and as that which must be ours , that it belongs but to few , and that this was thy Secret Will , whatever thy Revealed Will was ( they profested also to be men acquainted with thy secrets ) we gave our selves over to security , to eat , and drink , and do no good , and satisfie our wills in evil , for let us do better or worse , or the best and most which the best and most of any of us Reprobates could do , we saw we could but die ; and if we happened not to be of the few Elected on es to life , that are ordain'd to be brought to it some time or other ( as a thousand to one we saw we were not ) we must unavoidably die , and perish without hope or remedy : From such evil communications of our Clergy , which corrupted good manners , concluding , that we could do no good without thee , and had no grace to do good given us from thee , we said , Let us eat , and drink , for tomorrow we di● ; therefore let us be excused Lord and held guiltless , the rather because we were in ignorance and unbelief of this truth , that we could do ought towards our own Salvation by any power or measure of sufficient grace imparted to us from thy self , or at least shew us mercy as thou didst to Paul , who obtained it of thee , that in him thou mightest shew forth an example of thy long-suffering goodness and patience to poor sinners in ●ime to come , even to a●l that ever should live ungodly , 1 Tim. 1. for as he , so we , seeing our Teachers traduced us so to think of the Qua. that now we find hold the truth , supp●sed innocently , or as least ignorantly , that they were Enemies to God , Christ , Scriptures , Word of God , Righteousness of Christ , Iustification by him alone , seduced and seducres , and the vilest persons on earth , and so thought verily that we did thee service in persecuting , killing , stoning , stocking , mocking , haling them out of Synagogues , and into prisons , little deeming what we now see , that men are not accepted and condemned the more for not knowing so much ( as our Professors tell us ) of this and that notion of doctrine , and point of Divinity in the head , as for not doing that ( be it little or more ) that is already made known with all the heart , and that had we done thy will but so far as ' ●is made known , we ( as Christ said indeed ) should have known more and more of the different doctrines that were , which were of God , and which men , for meer money and maintenance , flesh and livelihoods sake , taught only of themselves . I say , may not the Reprobates , even in these Nations so plead ? and can the Light and Grace of God given and tendred to them , leave them without excuse at all , if it be not at all sufficient , if never so well improved , to lead them to Life and Salvation ? Can the Law in their hearts accuse them doing ill , and not justifie them doing well ? Will it kill them if they break it , and kill them if they obey it also ? but how much more excuse the poor Ethnicks ( as ye call them ) that have nothing but that Light within of Nature ( as ye term it ) which ye your selves sometimes seem to confess , and say excused them ; as T. D. page 40. We may suppose the heathen might say , had we known of a remedy , we would have made use of it ; yea , thou deniest not T. D. nor do any of you , but that the work of the Law written in the hearts of All is accusing and excusing , and that the said Law within is sufficient to both these , I. O. page 43. owns the same , saying , that by the Light within , the Heathens thoughts excuse or accuse , according as the Cons●ience thereby enlightned bears inward witness both of the Ius , and the fact , and that the moral instinct of good and evil that is within , by that is seconded by a self-judgement , i. e. an inward justifying , clearing , and acquitting , as it s answered , or else a terrifying and condemning as it s transgrest : This therefore is another argument , of the common Lights sufficiency to save from condemnation such as walk by it , from which I may conclude it . Arg. 16. That which can and doth excuse its observers , does not only serve to restrain sin , and to leave he transgressors of it without excuse , but also save from condemnation ; but the Law in the heats of Heathens , excuses it observers , witness Rom. 2.15 . from which place ye are fain all to confess the same , where it s said , That by the work of the Law which the Heathen shewed written in their hearts , their inward thoughts not only accuse , but excuse ; yea , very Ethnicks are not left without Plea or excuse by it , if it be not sufficient to save ( as is shewed above ) asd as T. D. confesses , page 40. 1 Pamp. We may suppose ( quoth he ) the Heathen might say , had we known of a remedy , we would have made use of it ; therefore it not only leaves without excuse , when men violate it , but saves from condemnation such as obey it . That 's a strange unheard of kind of Law , that kills as well its keepers as its breakers , or that takes vengeance on the violaters of it , and cannot keep the keepers of it from the vengeance of it neither ; yet T. D. sayes , page 5. 2 Pamp. The Light condemns the Heathen when they dis●b●y it , but cannot save them though they do obey it ; indeed he adds without Christ ; and so say I too ; but that Light is in them from Christ , and so if it save them , as it does if they obey it , it saves them not without him , for it s he that saves them by it ; but our Diviners Divine enough to the contrary , to the utter confutation of themselves in this , when by their own confession , the common Light in the Conscience , they more commonly , then properly call Natural , doth not only accuse such as go from it , but also excuse such as keep to and walk by it within themselves ; for is not Iustification , non-condemnation , absolution , and consequently Salvation from guilt and wrath , where excusation is , as well as guilt , wrath , and condemnation , where accusation , and no excuse ? Is it possible there should be any condemnation , where no transgression , but an answering to the Law lent men to live by ? for sin ( as before ) is but the transgression of the Law or Light that every one hath , and as where no Law is , so where no breach is of the Law where it is , there 's no transgression , and where the Conscience gives a good answer , and the heart by the Light in it , that shews Ius and Factum , condemns not , doth God condemn ? is there not acceptance , boldness , and confidence toward him , as there is fear , terrour , wrath , and condemnation from God where it doth condemn ? yea , your selves confess it , yet the Law in the heart , the Light is sufficient to accuse , yea , and excuse well and ill doing respectively , but not to save , justifie , or give life , say our light treacherous Prophets , dark Divines , and lifeless Leaders . Ob. The Letter kills , cannot give life . Rep. True , but why is it ? but because it s desobeyed , and cannot give ability to any to do what it requires : The Law , or Light , and Gospel , and All , kills such as transgress it , I say , the Gospel it self condemns , but whom is it ? none but such as hate and take not heed to it , that thereby they may come from under the curse and death , into the life it calls for , else , it being the power of God to the Salvation of such as believe in it , Life should be by the Light , one way more then it could come by by the Letter ; for the Letter could keep them that keep it , from the Curse denounced in it to the breakers of it , yet cannot give any an ability to keep it : But the light is not only able to acquit , justifie , clear , absolve , secure , and save from wrath all such as believe in , and obey it , but al o to enable such as look to it , and impower them more and more to obey and walk by it ( and consequently by the letter , which cannot be transgressed by such as abide in the light ) all such as singly come to it , and continue waiting on the Lord in it . Object . The Law cannot give life , if it could , righteousness should be by the Law , Gal. 5.21 . Rep. True , the Law in the letter , the Old Testament , which he there speaks of , as in opposition to the New , which is the Gospel , the Light , and Spirit , cannot , in regard of the weakness of flesh to fulfil it , and its weakness to enable any to the fulfilling of it ; for the Righteousness declared and required therein must be performed , or else it utters nothing but accusation and cursing , and yet to perform that Righteousness , the letter can no wise impower . But the Law , which is the light in the Spirit , that is and comes from Christ into the Conscience , is the Law of Life , forasmuch as , howbeit it taketh vengeance en mens inventions , and ministers first judgement and condemnation to the transgressors for transgression , and wrath on the evil doer and his evil deeds , yet when it hath condemned sin in the flesh , wherein it is committed , so long , till it hath condemned it out of the flesh , and brought forth judgement , in th●se that wait on it , unto victory over the sin that is judged , it ministers the righteousness , and the peace , and the liberty from the sin , and the Life of God it self , it requires , calls for , and through the Judgement leads too , and then justifies those whom it hath this way enabled to perform it . In both which respects ( though the Law of the letter is not so ) yet the Law of the Spirit of Life , which is the Light in Christ , and in us from him , sith it both 1. enables the followers of it to fulfil it ; and 2. secures from wrath and condemnation the fulfillers of it , who e're they are ( Iew or Ge●tile , such as have the letter without , or have it not ) that obey it ; it is not sufficient only to accuse the rebels against it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and condemn them within themselves , but also ( as utterly insufficient to save and bring to life , utcunque ei attendentes , such as never so punctually observe and perform it , as our Preachers prate it is ) altogether , even every way sufficient to save to the utmost , all such as come to God by Christ , from whom it comes , and to Christ in it : According to Rom. 8.1,2,3,4 . There is now therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Iesus , who walk not after the flesh , but after the Spirit , For th● Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Iesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death . For what the Law could not do , in that it was weak through the flesh , God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in the flesh : That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh , but after the Spirit . Thus then it is evident , that the Law of God ( which is not the letter of it ) but the light , is powerfull and sufficient to save ( save only that men turn from , and transgresse it , and that it is universal , and in all men , is as evident out of Rom. 2.13 , 14. where it is said , that those ye call Heathen , who have not the outward literal copy of it , do shew the work of the Law written in their hearts , which w●rk of the Law T. D. ( who yet grants the Law it self to be spiritual ) in his meer natural understanding , calls natural , as if the work of the Law of God , which is Spiritual and perfect , were not spiritual as the Law it self is , which work or effect of the Law , Psalm 19.7 , 8 , 9. is said to be the conversion of the s●ul , rejoycing the heart , enlightning the eyes , cleansing , purifying , &c. and not only the shewing of sin and good , and censuring for the obedience o● disobedience ( as T. D. dotes ) who undertaking to teach G. W. what the work of the Law is , and how it differs from the Law it self , p. 3.2 Pamp. understands neither what he himself sayes , nor whereof he affirms , which works of the Law the Scripture there mentions , which di●covers T. Ds. ignorance of the works or effects of the Law , if they be natural I know not what ●s ▪ spiritual ; and yet to get out of that absurdity , in proof of it he runs into another , saying in the next clause thus ; viz. the Heathen do by nature the things contained in the Law ; as if that were corrupt nature in the Heathen that did conform them to the Law ; when as the nature there spoken of , by which they are said to do the things of the Law , is , that rature , after which God at first made man upright , and after his own Image , in righteousness and holiness of truth , before they sinned and run out into their own inventions , and so fell short thereof ▪ which nature and image is in it self , ●are , divine , perfect in reason and understanding , and doing th● Mind and Will of God , though men mostly become degenerated . from that into another swinish , brutish nature , even the nature and image of the Serpent , the subtillest of beasts , of the Devil and Satan himself , and so of men ( as they were made ) become beasts of the field , and of noble Vines of Gods planting in his Garden at first , and wholly a right seed , turning from the light into the darkness of their own vain thoughts and imaginations , became a seed of evil doers , and a degenerate plant of a strange Vine unto the Lord ; in which sta●u corrupto , and by which contrary nature ( not created by God , but contracted to themselves ) the other nature , image , and glory of God , which when man sinned crept inward , lies hid and covered in them , till by the Light of God , which is given to that end , they are , as by a line or clew , led down into themselves , and through the laborynth of their own learning and lusts , which lies a top of it , to find it out again , and till by the said light the house be swept , and the lost money seen , and that swinish nature destroyed , and the lost sheep sought out and saved , and till the works and image of the Serpent , who hath in the dark stampt his own likeness on them , be again defaced , and till the tares which he hath sowed in the night , while men slept , in the field or inner world of the heart , and that earth which hath overgrown the other , and brought forth bria●s and thornes , weeds , neetles , thistles , &c. which is accursed , be burnt up and consumed , from above that which brings forth herbs meet for the Masters use , to which the blessing is , by the spirit of judgement and of burning ; in which selfish nature , which is that of Cain , and Ishmael , and Esau ( the three Elder ) that have no acceptance , men will be sacrificing , serving , and glorying in Righteousnesses and Church-works of their own devising , which All are abomination with God , because done in that same nature still in which they are disobedient , sinning , and serving divers lusts , and so by that nature become as well in their very righteousness , as in their wickedness , children of Gods wrath , Ephes. 2.2 . Tit. 3.2 . incurring his displeasure by their doing of such things , as are not only besides , but against the Law or Light of God in the Conscience , and contrary to that pure primitive nature , by which only ( as men by the light come back to it , as many do , without the letter ) the things contained in the holy Law can be done : And this contradicts that grosly absurd , sottish , false , blind , and ignorant Assertion of T. D. which as A. Parker related to me , he uttered in a discourse with him at Sandwich , before many people , since those three more publick disputes held by R. H. G. W. and my self with him and his Confederates and Associates against us ( who yet are at odds amongst themselves , some Prclatick , some Presbyterian , some Independent ) viz. that it is the corrupt nature , by which the Nations are said , Rom. 2. to do the things contained in the Law : Which is , I say , the grossest absurdity , false doctrine , and contradiction to the Scripture that can well-nigh possibly be given ; for by that corrupt , sinning nature ( by the yet T. D. is not ashamed , and blushes not to say , men do the things c●ntained in Gods Law , alias , keep , obey , observe , conform to Gods Law , which is the pure light shining in the Conscience , that is , spiritual , holy , just , and good , that never did , nor can p●ssibly consent to the least sin , or do other then reprove and condemn it in the heart . ) I say by that corrupt nature ( which men have by the fall from God , who made them upright , contracted to themselves , which is the very enmity it self against God and all good ) men do , and can do no other , then sin against God , and do the things that are not contained or commanded in , but are contrary to the Law , and walk in the trespasses and sins , in which they lie dead , according to the common course and custome of the World while it lies in the wickedness , not minding the light , according to the Prince of the power of the Air , the Spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience , and have their conversation in the lusts of the flesh , fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind , drinking in iniquity as naturally as the beast drinks in water , without satisfaction , working uncleanness with greediness , 1 Iohn 2.1 , 2 , 3 , 14 , 18 , 19. and so are by that nature children of wrath : But in respect of which said pure primitive nature some Gentiles that have not the letter , but the Light of God , and Christ within , leading them back into it out of that corrupt one , by which Light they are a law to themselves before God , are said to perform by nature what things are required in the Law , which are ( as ye say ) moral duties indeed , yet such as ( saving your ignorance in that ) are truly righteous and acceptable with God , and evangelical , being done in Christ , though they know not his person , whilst done in his light ; for men may do much by the light that comes from the Sun , while they see not the body of the Sun it self , and be guided and strengthened to do much by the Light of God and Christ , that is his Will , and acceptable , and good , though yet they have not heard of , nor known him so much , as some that hear and read of such things by the letter , as to his appearance in that body of flesh or meer external incarnation ; Witness Cornelius , whose Prayers and Almes were heard and accepted , being done by one that feared God , and eschewed the evil , which by the light he had discovered , whilst as yet he had not heard of Christs personal Birth , Life , Death , or Resurrection , Acts 10.1.2 . &c. Yea , every moral duty that is done in some obedience to the light that is in the Conscience , and not for base ends and glory of men ( which ends have been and are found more among many Literarists , Iews , and Christians too , then among many that by them have been ( lighted as Heathens ) are Evangelical also , yea , whatever is done from an honest , and not selfish principle in the Light or Law in the heart , is of the same nature as that both Moral and Evangelical Law is , even spiritual , and holy , and iust , and good , and all transgression that is acted against the Law , is not only against the Light of God and Christ , whose Commandment that is , and against the Gospel or free Promise of life held forth also therein , but also against nature , not that corrupt na●u●e into which men are run ( for the sin is committed in that ) but that divine nature , or similitude of God , or right Reason , in which men stood at first , til they ran out into a reasonless kind of Reason of their own , which is not after God , a remnant of whose nature is in man still , and his light in the Conscience , which is right Reason it s●lf , leads to it● and therefore all sinners , who are in the deeds of darkness , and out of the true faith of Christ , which is in his light , are said to do things contrary to nature ( though pleasing and answerable to the viperous nature they are gone out into ) Rom. 1. 24 : 25 : 26 : 27 : 28 : 29 : 30 : 31 : 32. and to be without natural affection , or against nature , unnatural and unreasonable , 2 Tim. 3.3 . 2 Thes. 3.2 . and wicked , for all men that have the true Light in them , have not Faith in it . I say then , the Heathen who have not the letter , by the Light of God , which is saving , are a law unto themselves , and do shew the work of the Law written in their hearts , their Conscience also , by the Law inlightned , bearing witness within them , and their thoughts thereby accusing and excusing one another so that the Law is not only a light , and saving , but universal also and common , in some measure , to all men . To which may be added as an Argument ( Ad hominem at least to the stopping of their mouth ) in proof of the universality of Christs enlightning All men , another consideration out of R. B. and I. T. his own Book , and that is , the need that all men that come into the world have of Light from Christ , and the universal necessity of Christs enlightning them all , because of that universal corruption and blindness , which is asserted by them to be in all men at birth . P. 24 , 25. John 1.9 . Where it is said of man coming i●to the world , * must be meant ( say they ) of humane birth , and accordingly this point is thence ( say they ) deducible . That every one that comes into the world needs light from Christ , which Position ( say they ) is true , 1. Because every man is bo●n destitute of spiritual light in the things of God , concerning his duty , and the way of salvation . 2. Because every man is liable to death , and trouble , and wrath , and evil from God , as he is born into the world ; and Christ came into the world to remove both these sorts of darkness , and none else can do it . These are the express words of these two men , R. B. I. T. from which howbeit they most unreasonably conclude against our doctrine , saying , The former of these overthrows the main Position of the Qua. That every man hath a light within him sufficient to guide him , so as that following it , he may please God , and be saved without the light of Scriptures , or preaching of publick Teachers . Yet I do and may most truly argue and conclude , to the fuller establishing of the said Position from their own words on this wise . Arg. 17. If every man that comes into the world needs light from Christ , and there be a necessity of Christs enlightning , in regard that every man is irrecoverably lost else , and not some only , then Christ doth enlighten ( so far at least as to a possibility for salvation ) every man , and not few men only ; otherwise God were ( as is abovesaid ) a most apparent respecter of mens persons ( as he is not ) and his wayes were not equal ( as they are ) and his words were not true ( as they are ) when he sayes he would have all men to be saved ( unless they will die ) and to come to the knowledge of the truth , and such like ; nor were his clearing himself and charging of men that perish right ( as it is ) when he sayes , their destruction is of themselves , but in him is their help ; nor were his Iudgements iust and righteous ( as they are ) in condemning men for not believing in the light , while they had it , when they never had it , nor were his pretended great Love , rich Grace , matchless Mercy to All pe●ple in Christs birth , Luke 2. ● Iohn 3.16 : 17 : 18. so sincere ( as it is ) but ra●h●r feigned ; sith ( else ) he did not so much as put them all into a possibility of coming out of their m●sery , but rather left a thousand to one to perish in it unavoidably without remedy ; nor were his fairest offers of salvation and life to all , if they will walkin his light , so fair ( as they are ) but meer mockage , since else he had not given them any measure of any such light as could lead them to it ; nor were his saying , What could I have done more for them that I have not done ? any other then a lye ( as it is not ) since else he had not done so much as was needful , yea so absolutely necessary towards their living , that it was not possible they should live without it , when he both could , should , and ought in equity , by some measure of true light , to have made them capable to come to life , and see their way to it . But every man needs light from Christ , and there is necessity ( in respect that every man ( else ) is blinded by him to his destruction , as well as some men ) of Christs enlightning with his true and saving light , every man as well as some men only ; This we need not prove , sith R. B. and I. T. assert it so universally of every man that cometh into the world . Therefore undoubtedly , more or lesse , Christ hath with true saving light enlightned every man , and not some few men only . CHAP. V. I Shall now betake my self to take some brief view of R.Bs. and I.Ts. trivial talk , and to consider some of their inconsiderable arguings , and confused oppositions to the contrary , at least so many as whereby men may judge probably of what sort the rest are , who in disproof of the saving sufficiency of the Light in every man ( which they call sometimes the Light that comes from God , sometimes every mans own light ) to lead him unto God , have mustered up together no less then thirty or forty Arguments and Reasons , as they call them , not one of all which hath so much weight in it , as can truly render it worthy of the name of a Reason in that case its brought for : They lie all together in one Litter , between page 42. and 54. making up the whole sixth of those nine dark Sermons , and no small part of the seventh , not more seemingly for , then shamefully against the true Light there said to enlighten every man that comes into the world , prated out from Iohn 1.9 . by I. Tom. and back't by R. Baxter . Their thirty Arguments , to which they add ten Reasons of their own , they say , are out of Scripture , and so I confess they are in one sense , there being not one at all of them to be found either in , or so much as truly deduced from the Scripture . The Scriptures the first Argument is ( far ) fetch 't from , are Rom. 3. 11. None understands , none seeks after God , 1 Cor. 2.14 . The natural man discerns not the things of the Spirit , &c. Gen. 6.5 . and 8.21 . Every imagination of mans heart is only evil , &c. Jer. 10.14 . Every man is bruitish in his knowledge , Jer. 17.9 . The heart is deceitful above all things ; whence they argue thus , Their Light , of whom these things are said , is not a safe rule to guide them into the pleasing of God , but these things are said of All , or some men ; therefore every mans Light in him , is not a safe Guide to God. Rep. We confess these things are said not of some only , but of All men , as they are in the fall , who are All gone out of the way : But what of that ? Are All men therefore , because gone out without any measure of Light sufficient to guide into the way again ? in that Ali●nation none seeks God ; Are All then without any of that true Light , wherein God is to be found of such as will seek him in it ? All natural men ( such as All are , till they turn to be led by the Light and Spirit ) by their meer animal wisdome , see not spiritual things : Are All therefore without the least measure of that Spirit and spiritual Light ; that shews them , viz. the Law of God in their minds , which is spiritual , lusting in them against the flesh , though they are carnal ? every mans imagination and thoughts are evil , every man is b●●itish in his own knowledge , every mans heart , as he is gone out from the truth told by God within himself , after the Devil that abode not in it , is there therefore true Light in no man that manifests the deceits of his heart in some wise to him ? Is that truth in no man which he is to abide in , and which if he abide in it , it will teach him the Will of God ? I say , is no measure of this in no men ? For this Argument of these men , could it conclude any man to be without the said sufficient Light ( as it does not , there being no consequence in it ) would consequently conclude every man to be without it , as he is in the fall , and come out into the world , and then instead of reading that Text , viz. Iohn 1.9 . that I. Tombs talks from , and R. B. repeats his Sermons on thus ; That was the true Light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , as 't is in the Bible ; or thus , That was the true Light that enlighteneth the Elect , or some few men , or some of all sorts , &c. as I. O. T. D. R. B. I. T. interpret it besides the literal sense and proper import of the term every man , we must henceforth read thus ▪ viz. The true Light that enlighteneth no man that comes into the world , every man being bruitish , every mans heart ( till he comes to the Light that 's come to him ) being deceitful as well as any mans ; and so the saving , Grace and Light shall no more be coop't up in a corner among a few , but be allowed no place in the world of any mans heart at All ; but who will say thus ( as they say in effect ) but such as are become bruitish , and besotted with them ? And if they tell us they speak and mean not of Gods Light here , but of mans own Light , as no good guide to God , what do they band against the Q●akers for then , and bend the force of their frivolous Argument against them ? who look upon every mans own light , and thoughts , and imagination of his heart , wisdome , knowledge , and understanding , which he is gone out into , from Gods Light , to be natural , and weak , and foolishness , and darkness , as much and more then themselves ( who are yet found in no other ) for whatever they mean when they prate against the Light the Qua. testifie to , calling it natural , mans own , and blindne●s , and darkness , which Andabato um more , they confusedly fight against in their dark minds , under the terms sometimes of the true Light Christ bids men believe in , that they may be the children of it , which is no other then the Gospel Light of God and Christ himself , sometimes of every mans own Light , mans own thoughts , imaginations , * yet * the Qua. plead for nothing in man that is meerly of man , but for that Light alone which is of God , and by which what is to be known of God , God manifests in man , yea in All men , the very Heathen that have not the Scripture , which Light is that Law in the mind , which is not evil nor natural , but holy , just , good , and spiritual , by which alone , though these meer Humanists and Naturalists discern them not , the things of the Spirit of God are discerned , every man in the fall is become bruitish , and , like the bruit beast of the field , lives more by sense then reason , is not regulated by right reason in what he does , it may as well therefore be concluded , that All men have not the least measure of reason in them , while they live besides it , as these men conclude from mens living besides the Light , in the deeds of darkness , that therefore they have no Light in them ; but an Argument it is rather , that these Pastors are like those Ier. 10.14.21 . who are become bruitish , and have not sought the Lord in his Light , in that they argue so bruitishly , not only besides the Spiritual Light of the Lord , which would lead them to a right understanding of the truth , but also below that common sense and reason that naturally belongs to man , for which therefore woe unto them , they shall not prosper , and all their flocks shall be scattered , for which a great commotion is already come out of the North , to make their Cities , their Assemblies defolate , as a Den of Dragons . Thus far as to R.B. and I.Ts. first Argument , by which men may judge of the constitution of the rest , which are all of the same complexion . The second is drawn from Act. 17.22.23 . Rom. 1.21.22.23 . the sum of which in short is this ; The most improved Gentiles ( for all that Light which was in them ) were in all things too superstitious , were carried about to dumb Idols as they were led , had their foolish hearts darkned about their thoughts of God , worshipped him ignorantly , and such like ; therefore they , much less the most barbarous , and consequently none of the Gentiles , who had not the Scripture , nor such other teaching as Gods people were taught by , had not a Light in them that was sufficient without the Scripture to guide them to God , &c. Rep. That the Gentiles were generally superstitious , fool●sh , dark , blind , idolatrous , and ignorant in their worshippings of God , I deny not ; howbeit , I close not cordially with that clause ( the most improved ) in the Antecedent , for 't was through non-improvement of the Light they had ; and because at the best they were ill improved in it , that they became so , for had they heeded the Light , they had been led out of Idols , to the knowledge of God by it , for what is to be known of God , is by it manifest in them , Rom. 1.19 . But what if the best improved Gentiles were so as ye say , vain in their thoughts , &c. they might have better improved the Light then they did , and the Reason why they were so fortishly superstitious was , not because they had not sufficient Light to lead them in the true knowledge of God and his Worship , and direct them to discern the truth , but because they look't not to the Light , because they went out from the Light they had , by which they had some measure of the knowledge of God , into their own wisdome , leaning to their own understanding , and so became vain ; therefore is it said , They were without excuse , because when they knew God , they glorified him not as God , neither were thankful , but became vain in their imaginations , and their foolish heart was darkned , and professing themselves to be wise , they became fools , and changed the glory of God into an Image , and changed the truth of God into a lye , and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator , not liking to retain him ( and that true worship of him , which the Light would have led them to ) in their knowledge , and the Gentiles there were not so vain and foolish , ignorant of God , and superstitious for want of Light to guide them , as R. B. T. D. dote they were , to Gods true worship , but for want of being guided by the Light they had : So what 's this to their purpose ? Who sees not the blindness , weakness , folly , nakedness , and falsity of this argument ? one absurdity in which also more notable in it then the rest is this , viz. that in the conclusion , is inferred aliud a negaro , another thing then that which is denied by the Qua. and undertaken to be proved against them by themselves ; for therefore , say they , the Gentiles who had not the Scripture , nor such other teaching as Gods people are taught by , had not a Light sufficient , &c. the words in which conclusion are true , though nihil ad Rhombum , if there be any such Gentiles that have neither Scripture , nor such other teaching ( Mark that phrase foisted in by them , whereby they conclude another matter then is denied by us in the Question in hand ; for the Gentiles that have not the other teaching , i. e. that of the Light within , have not the Light within that 's true , who doubts it , but none such are to be found that have not that Light and Grace in some measure by which God teaches his and Al● people , though most Gentiles are found destitute of an outward Letter ) as God teaches his People by , which other teaching is that of the Light within , which is that other , yea , that chief teaching God teaches his and All people by , whether they learn by it yea or nay , I shall say more to them when I see them , but at present I know none such , nor ever have done . Before I pass to the third Argument of R. B. I. T. from this second , I shall consider their tenth and thirteenth Arguments , which are co-inciden , and in effect the same with this second , by which three Arguments ( which yet in substance are but one ) I. O. and T. D. both are found fencing in their fool●sh minds , together with them , against All mens having a sufficient Light to guide them into the true saving knowledge of God , his worship , and the mystery of his Kingdome , about which I have dealt with T. D. already in p. of my first Exercitation , who All urge peoples ignorance of the things of God , his Worship , and mystery of his Gospel and Kingdome , in proof of their want of a Light whereby they might know them , which is such an idotish , ignorant piece of arguing , as he makes who argues a non actu ad non potentiam , a non esse ad non posse , which is as silly as to conclude , that becau●e a man sits still , therefore he cannot go , or he hath no power to walk , because when he shuts his eyes , and neither will , nor does see the Sun , therefore he never could see it , for which a man would be hissed out of the Schools by very Boyes . As for R. B. and I. T. they are so enamoured with the Eminency and and strength of this their argument ( the childishness and weakness of which is evident to any , save such whose own it is so , that ( being blind at home ) they will not own the blindness and absurdness of it that they seem to put more stress upon it , then on all the rest beside . Hereupon it hath more then one , or two , or three places in their book , viz. not only in the 43 page forecited ; but also page 28. and page 29. where they conclude , that because men stumble , and their imaginations are evil , their hearts deceitful and wicked , therefore they want light to direct them , and to rectifie their thoughts ; if men stumble and fall , it s an Argument ( say they ) they want Light , of such corruption want of Light to guide us in the way to happiness ( oh gross ) is a chief part : Ieremies sayings , Every man is bruit●sh , &c. the heart is deceitful , &c. do express such a destitution of Light , Truth , &c. Also page 40. and 47. where their tenth and thirteenth Arguments ( which are one , and wrested from sundry Texts , viz. Rom. 16.25.26 . 1 Cor. 2.7.8 . Col. 1.25.26 . 2 Tim. 1.9 . Matth. 11.25.26 . Mat. 13.11 . from all which it follows , that all men have not some saving Light as fully , as the B●●re goes freely ●o the stake ) are on this wise : The Mystery of God was hid from the Gentiles , God hid the things concerning the knowledge of himself from some , when he revealed them to others , and 't was given to some ( as a special gift quoth T. D. who●e words and argument , this is , above spoken to at large by me ) to know the mysteries of the Kingdome , not to others ; therefore every man hath not a Light in him , as a sufficient guide to direct him to God. As for I. O. his way of Argumentation against the sufficiency of this light within to save , is in sum the same : Among his other things ; or rather nothings to the purpose , of which he sayes , Contrarium proba●t , they prove the contrary , to our assertion of the Lights sufficiency to save , he names the universal experience of all ages , from the beginning of the world to this day ▪ Quis enim lucis huius ductu ad ver●●● Dei cognitionem pervene●t ? Qui post homines natos ea op●ime usi surt , &c. Ex. 4. S●●o . For who ever came to the true knowledge of God by the guidance of this Light ? Those among all men who have best of all improved it , have every man of them become vain in their imaginaons , and their foolish heart hath been darkned ; in all which fore-cited argumentative matter , these four men reason unreas●nably , from mens not knowing and being saved by the ●●ne Light , to their wanting of the true Light to know and be saved by , when as it follows not at all , that becuse they know not , and are not saved , therefore they are destitute of Light , but the cause of their perishing in ignorance , is not walking in what they have , not because they have not sufficient Light to walk by , or are not put into possibility of k●owledge to Salvation by some measure of that Light which is saving : Their Syllogiring is as silly in this , as to say of a man that voluntarily hoodw●inks himself , he does not see , therefore he cannot , that man stumbles and falls , therefore he cannot do otherwise , when yet he may , but that he , blind-folds his own eyes ( or gives way to others to do it ) from seeing his way , as most men do to the God of this world , lest the Light of the Gospel , which they have , because it reproves them , should shine out in them , and as a potentia ad actum , so a non actu ad 〈…〉 non est confequentia 〈◊〉 Men can no more wisely nor 〈◊〉 infer from mens not knowing of God truly a non-ability or insufficiency in that Light they have ( if they seek him in it ) to reveal him , and make him truly known , then from the being of a Power , to a necessity of the Act , which is a non sequitur with a Witness : We know that most men know not the mysteries of the ●●ingdome , but 't is not because they may not , or 〈◊〉 , for w●●● of Light , but because they will not come to the Light by which they may : And therefore when as the Question is aske 〈◊〉 the Light which is in some measure in the con●cience of all men , be sufficient to make kno●● God savingly , why do not all come to be saved by the knowledge of him , whom to know is Life Eternal ? 〈◊〉 , because they give not up to be guided by it , and come not to it when its 〈◊〉 to them , in order to their Salvation ; for God sent it 〈◊〉 the world , 〈…〉 would , though the world is condemned by it , through their not coming to it , but that the world through it might be saved , for the Light which judges the sin , is saving to the Soul , and by it , that one Law giver , who is able both to save and destroy , doth both judge and destroy the works of the Devil in men ( for which end he is manifested in the world ) and men , as they will not be weaned nor saved from those works , and saves also from those destructive works , all such souls as give up to be guided by it . And firh● I. O. sayes , ● Who●ever came● to the true knowledge of God by the guidance of this Light ? I answer , All that ever did come to the true knowledge of God at all , and those ( as little as these men know them ) are not a few ( though few in comparison of those that are ignorant ) who by walking in tha● Līght , while they had it ; have come to experience that Life of God , which is yet hid from you wise and prudent ones , and ever will be more● and more , as ye are alienated from this Light within yourselves , much more while ●ye are such vnter Banders of your selves against both it , and the Children of it . And whereas thou I. O. sayest , Qui●ea optim●usi●sunt , &c. They who have best of all improved it , are become vain , &c. thou utterest thou know'st not what ; for Rom. 1.21 . which thou citest●in proof thereof , doth no less service to the Truth , then to disprove that thy false Assertion , for all who look not beside the Light ; may see it speaks not at all of as well improve it , but of such as Improved it not ●at all , but when they knew God by it , who ver . 19. by it manifested in them 〈◊〉 was in 〈◊〉 of himself , glorified him not as God , nor were thankful ● answerably , no● 〈◊〉 to retain him in their knowledge , but ran from his ●Light into their own thoughts , and so into the things which they knew the Iudgements of God and Death were due unto the doers of . And as for the Mysteries of the Gospel , 't is true , they are hid from the most , and 't is given to some to know them , not to others : Bat look ye blind , that ye may see , how came they to be hid from some ? Why was it given to some , and not to others to know them ? and who were those others that knew them not ? Were they such as could never see them , meerly for want of Light to shew them ? Doth the Text of your own alledging , viz. Matth. 13.11.12.13.14.15 . in proof of that your sigment say so ? doth i ̄t not plainly say , as we say , against you , that it was because first there was a time wherein they might have seem them but would not , had ears to hear , but stopt them , eyes to see , but closed them , beca●se they seeing s●w not , hearing heard not , ●or would understand , nor perceive , nor be converted , nor healed , when God would have converted and healed them , and such like ? So Qui● boc omne ad Doct●um delirium ● What 's all this to dreams of our Doctors , who from thence , and such like places as overthrow themselves , divine out Arguments against All mens having sufficient Light , speaking evil of the Light ; and iudging the Light as imperfect , which is the Law of God , which is perfect in each measure of it , of which they will not be D●ers , but Iudges ; for which judging and evill speaking of what they know not ( while in what they know naturally , and but Psuchicos , animally , as bruit beasts● in those very things corrupt themselves ) woe is to them from the Lord , all such Iudges and their Iudgement , must come to Iudgement , 〈…〉 . Moreover , might we lawfully so argue ( but first , we need not , there being enough besides to urge in di●proof thereof ; and secondly , we do not , there being little force in such arguments ) against the sufficiency of the Letter to save , as they think they may against the sufficiency of the Light , need we do any more then turn the edge of their own Weapon against themselves in that particular , who not only call the Letter a saving Light , but also argue for it as such , with a non obstante to the small number of such as are actually saved by it , even among those that both have it , and often read it , for ( say they , in way of Plea for the dead Letters being a saving Light where ere it comes ) no matter how few come to Salvation by it , because they refuse to walk by it , it s never the less saving and sufficient , though men that have it perish , because it s come to them , and is able on its own part to give Life , but that on their parts it s not made use of not obeyed , &c : It s no argument its notable to save , that most men where it is are not actually saved , but rather perish : The self-same say I ep●●ehal● of the Light , which they are so foolish as to argue so fillily against . A non esse●ad non prsse , non est arguendum ; there 's no arguing from its not being actually so or so , to the non-possibility of the thing to be : We cannot conclude that there 's a non-sufficiency in that to save all men , by which all men actually are not saved , for then not only the Letter which only kills , yet they plead this self-same way is saving , and brings to Life , but even God and Christ himself , as well as their Light in mens consciences , who call to all ends of the Earth to look to than for Salvation in it , Isa. 45.22 . 49 , ●6 , must ( absit blasphemia ) be judged also as insufficient to save , by whom , though supremely all are saved , that are saved at all , yet all men actually are not saved . I Suppose then there were fewer that come to life by the Light then do ( as there be none at all that ever came to it by the Letter , even of those Scripture-searching Scribes that therein look for the Eternal Life , Iohn 5. ) yet will is not follow , as they judge it will , that the Light within all is not sufficient to lead to life ; or if it will , and these men will needs have it so , then let them take what comes along with that their own consequence to themselves , for it payes them home in another kind , whil'st 't will much rather conclude against the Letters being a saving Light , which against us and the Truth they eagerly argue so to be , fith by their own confession , not one of many that have it come to Life or Salvation by it . And whereas they say , the defect and default of this is not therefore because the Scripture is not a saving Light , but because they walk not in it , the self-same say we of the Light within , which the Letter came from , in which there 's no defect , which as Paul sayes of it ( for its the Law of Life , Rom. 8.2.3 . ) is weak to save , no otherwise , but because it is not answered , else life should come by it ; so that their own pen is their own pay-master still , which ever and anon pulls down at one time what it builds up at another , and contradicts , thwarts , and razes out ( as false ) in one place , the same that it writes for truth in another ; yea , En & Ecce , behold the confusions of these self-confuting men , a non actu ad non potentiam , from the non-being of the effect , i.e. the Life , to the non-efficaciousness of the Light to lead to it such as ●earn of it , is no lawful argument ( say they ) when they plead against us the sufficiency of the Letter to save , yet from All mens not being ac̄tùal'y and effectually saved by it , we may strongly conclude there is not efficacy nor sufficiency in the Light within Al nan to save All men in whom it is , how strictly soever they attend to it ( say they ) when we plead against the sufficiency of the Light to save ; it being therefore but meet , that out of their own measure where with they mēasure to us , it should be meeted to them again . I shall conclude my answer to Al these four men , and to All men else whose it is , as to this their argument , a non esse ad non posse , against the Lights sufficiency , in the very words ( Mutatis mutandis , interpositis interponendis , & additis addendis ) wherein themselves only speak either by way of concession against themselves of this truth we plead against them , or by way of Answer to such as they suppose to use the same ( though I do not , for he is no wise man that uses it at all ) against the sufficiency of their dead Letter . 1. Those of R.B. are as follows , who in p. 7. of his Epistle to the Reader , prefixed to I. T. his Book , sayes thus of the Qua. Do they hold that common , supernatural Light , outward and inward , objective and inherent , is given to many ( at least ) of the unsanctified that live under the preaching of the Gospel ? who contradicteth them in this ? Answ. Those who deny any , but meet natural , any supernatural , saving , or spiritual light to be given in common to All , or to any but the sanctified ones , i. e. the Saints , and the Elect , as yourselves do , saying ( as I. O. ) Nihilnon naturale , nihil spirituale , nihil a Christo Mediatore , &c. lumen salutare , nulta sub consideratioue , &c. Christ doth not in any wise vouchsafe supernatural , spritual , saving light to any but the Elect , he is blind that once dreams the contrary , and such like , as are to be found up and down his book ; Ex. 4. S. 13 , 17 : 25. R.B. Do they hold , that as the Sun is appointed in nature to be the light of every man that cometh into the world , though some parts of the earth were never illuminated by it , and blind men partake not of its light , and the night , and shutting our eyes and windows may exclude it , so Christ is by Office the Sun in the world of Grace , giving men actually all the gracious light they have , and being sufficient in himself to enlighten all , and giving them an illuminating word , which is sufficient in its own kind to do its own part , though many are blind , and many for their sin are deprived of the communication of this light ? Why all this we maintain as well as they . Answ. The more shame for you to stand up against that ye maintain yourselves , when the same is maintained by us , as ye do , when ye argue from some mens not seeing , because they shut their eyes , therefore they have not light by which sufficiently to see their way to life : As for your Simile , from the Suns not enlightning all parts of the world outwardly , from which its like ye conceive Christ , the Sun of Righteousness , hath not inwardly enlightned all men , it is but a quibble , for as there is nothing hid from the heat thereof , nor from some participation of the natural light and heat of the Sun , at least , neither by night nor day , though some times , places , and seasons are darker then some ( semblably ) no hearts from some measure of the Light of Christ , Psal. 12. 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : 5 : 6 : 7. compared with Rom. 10.16 : 17 : 18. ) R.B. Do they say all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to and obeyed ? Why what man did they ever speak with , that is a Christian , that denieth it ? Answ. None but such Anti-christians as yourselves , who , for all your prate here and elsewhere , saying , p. 41. in way of warning to men , that they act not against this Light within ; That certainly it concerns every man so far to look to the Light within him , that he do not , as it is said of some , Iob 24 : 13 : Rebel against the Light , And p. 68. That no light which is truly such is to be rejected : Yet elsewhere , yea in the self-same pages , How ur safe it is to obey the Light within , it leading and guiding men well in somethings , in most into crooked and dangerous , unwarrantable and sinfulwayes , as some Ig●is Fat●us , in the beastly , blasphemous blindness of your benighted hearts , imputing mens murders , and Pauls persecutions of the Saints , to their following thereof , which things only arose from their following their own thoughts , and forsaking and leaving the Light of God within , which lead to better , even ever to good only , and never at all into any evil ; as I. O. also after his strict challenges of obedience from every man to the Light in his own conscience , as to that which infallibly speaks to him from God himself , &c. page 44.45 . of his English Treatises , in his blind , hasty hatred against them , whom he mainly encounters in his Latine Th●ses , cryes out against this same verbum , Spiritum & lumen internion , which the Qua. call all men into the obedience of , in mockage , as figmentum horrendum crasse excogitatum , D●etorem Infallibilem , nes●i● quid , quod lumen , quem Deum , Christum imaginarium , To Panz nihil , rejiciendum & detessandum ; Some horrible sigment of the Qua. Imaginary Christ , infallible DoEtor , I know not what God , some spiritual everything , just nothing , but meer darkness it self , to be rejected and detested . And as for I. Os. words concerning the sufficiency of the Letter ; I shall use them in answer to himself and yourselves , as concerning the sufficiency of the Light on its own part to save , though few are saved by it , only where he sets that term Scripture , and Word of God ( by which all along he means the outward Scripture ) I shall place the term Light within , by which I intend that inward Word that is nigh in mens hearts , adding and interposing in a different Character what clauses are not his or distinctions sake , and so carry on this my General Answer , to that their foresaid General Argument , to an end . No● doth it in the least impair this sufficiency of the Light within to lead to life , that its a moral , and spiritual , not a natural Light , because all men come not to life by it , it suffices that there is nothing wanting on its own part for the discovery and revelation of the way to life . To argue that the Sun is not the Sun , or the great means of communicating external light into the world , because blind men cannot see it , nor will believe so much of it as they are told , will scarce be admitted , nor doth it in the least impeach the efficacy and sufficiency of the light pleaded for , that men stupidly blind cannot comprehend it , Iohn 1.5 . I do not assert that where ever the Light within ( Scripture , quoth I. O. ) is brought by what means soever ( whether in a Ministry of it , without , calling men to turn to it , or a measure of it within , calling men to turn to God ) All to whom it s preached , and to whom it preacheth , must instantly of necessity assent unto it , and come to the saving knowledge of God by it , many men ( who are not yet stark blind ) may have so abused their eyes , that where Light is brought into a dark place , they may not be able to discern it ; men may be so propossest with innumerable prejudices , principles received by strong Traditions , corrupt affections , making them bate the Light ( as woful experience shews that I. O. and many others do ) that they may not behold the glory of the Light within ( word , quoth I. O. i.e. with him the Letter , with me the Light ) when it is brought unto them ( as it is nigh in the heart that they may do it ) but it s nothing to our present discou●s● , whether any man living ( in sin ) do discern this Light , whilst the defect may be justly cast on their own blindness , 2 Cor. 4.2.3.4 . by the manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every ones conscience in the Sight of God , but if our Gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are losts , in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not , lest the Light of the Gospel of Christ , who is the Image of God , should shine unto them : There is in the dispensation of the Light within ( word , quoth I. O. meaning the Letter ) an evidence of Truth , commending itself to the consciences of men , some receive not this evidence , is it for want of Light in the truth , or Light itself ? No , that is a glorious light that shines ( as the bare Letter doth not , for it was never there ) in the hearts of men ; is it for want of testimony to assert this Light ? No , for many daily testifie it , but meerly because the god of this world hath blinded the eyes of men that they should not behold it : Where ever the Light within ( word , quoth I. O. meaning the Letter ) comes , by what means soever , it hath in it self a sufficiency of Light to evidence to all ( and will do it eventually to all that are not blinded by the god of this world ) the knowledge of God its Author , and the true way of Salvation , and the only reason why All are not saved , is because all do not receive its Witness ; and the reason why it is not received by mary in the World to whom it is come , and in whom it is , is the advantage that Satan hath to keep them in ignorance and blindness , by the lusts , corruptions , prejudices , and hardness of their own hearts ; the Light within ( word , quoth I. O. meaning still the Letter ) makes a sufficient Proposition of itself , and is sufficient to save where ever it is , and he to whom it shall come ( As it is to all in their hearts ) who refuses it ( as Darkness , Errour , Delusion , Euthusiasone , Fanaticisme , &c. ' because it is testified against ( as so and worse ) by I. O. and his Followers , who calls it Nihil , and in a mockage , an Imagined Christ , &c. whether it be I. O. himself in whom Satan testifies all this against it , or any other that refuse it upon I. Os. false testimony against it from Satan in him ) will give an account of his Atheisme and Infidelity : He that hath the Witness of God , which is the Light within , for the Letter without is but mans witness for God , as moved by his Spirit to declare outwardly what he inwardly knows of him , need not stay for the witness of man , which is the Letter without , which Letter yet doth abundantly testifie to the Light , as greater then itself : Wheresoever the Light within ( word , quoth I. O. meaning the Letter still ) is received indeed , as it requireth itself to be received , and is really assented 〈◊〉 ●● the Word of God sufficient to save , it is so received upon the evidence of that Light and sufficiency , which it is found and felt by such as walkin it , to have , and hath in itself to such , manifestly declaring it self so to be : It s all one by what means , by what hand , whether of a Child or Babe of stammering lips , or of a Church of God , for both those wayes it s witnest to without , the intimation and knowledge of the Light within us , comes to us from God , and towards us , by being the Word of God it hath its power of manifesting to us the way to life , and of manifesting it self so to be from its own innate Light : Now this Light in the Scripture ; i. e. which the Scripture , which is not it , declares to be , in the heart for the sufficiency of which to lead to life without the Scripture , as it did before that was , we contend , hath an impress far more then the Letter hath of Gods Excellency upon it , distinguishing it by infallible Tekmeria , from the product of any creature , or of the meer principles of nature , as I. O. dreams ; for though it was in men from the Creation , yet it is not his natural faculty of understanding , or the mind , or the conscience , as he and his fellows foolishly fancy , Ex. 4. S. 18. but some thing that is of God , and from him , which is a witness to him in the conscience , and in the mind , it is that Spirit in man , and Inspiration of the Almighty , which giveth him understanding , Iob 32.8 . that he may know him , 1 Iohn 5.20 . though all that have it do not know him by it , for from may to must there is no arguing ; by this God dives into the consciences of men , into all the secret recesses of their hearts , into a which such a gross thing as a meer outward Manuscript cannot get ; guides , teaches , directs , determines , and judges in them , upon them , in the Name , Majesty , and Authority of God , if the men who are blinded by the god of this world will yet deny this light , and not come to it , that they may be saved by it , because they perceive it not to be sufficient to save them , it shall not prejudice them , nor hinder their Salvation who do : By this self-evidencing sufficiency , I say , doth the Light within ( Scripture , quoth I. O. ) make such a Proposition of itself , as the Light and Power ( word , quoth I. O. meaning the Letter . ) of God ; that who ever rejects it , doth it at the peril of his eternal ruine , and thereby a bottom and foundation is tendred for that faith which it requireth to repose it self upon . For the proof then of the sufficiency of the Light within ( Divine Authority of the Scripture , quoth I. O. ) to lead to life , unto him or them , who as yet on no account whatever do acknowledge it , I shall only suppose that by the Providence of God , he or they be brought to the Light ( Book , quoth I. O. ) so as that he or they be ingaged to the consideration of it , or do attend to the leadings of it , upon a supposal hereof , I leave them and the Light ( Word , quoth I. O. ) together ; and if it evidence not its own sufficiency unto their consciences , it is because they are blinded by the god of this world , which will be no Plea for the refusal of it at the last day ; and they who receive it not on this ground . All never receive it on any as they ought : The Light within ( Scripture , quoth I. O. ) is enrolled among things of that nature , as do manifest their own condition● : It is absolutely called the Power of God , and that unto its proper end ; i.e. Salvation , which way lyes the tendency of its efficacy in operation , Rom. 1.16 . the word concerning the Cross , that is , the Gospel , or the Light : ( for the Light is the cross to the carnal mind , will and wisdome ) is the Power of God , 1 Cor. 1.8 . and faith , which is built on that Light , ( word , quoth I. O. ) not the Letter , without other helps or advantages , is said to stand in the Power of God , 1. Cor. 2.5 . This , and not the naked Letter , is the Rod of his Power or Strength , Psa. 110.2 . giving all manner of assurance and full perswasion of its own Authority , Efficacy , and Sufficiency . By vertue of this power it hath ever brought forth fruit among such as came to it in all the world , in which it is , and into which it is come , without sword , without for the most part miracles , without humane wisdom or Oratory , without any inducements or motives but what were meerly and solely taken from it self , consisting in things that ●y hath not seen , nor ear heard , nor could enter into the heart of man to conceive hath it , doth it , and will it much more now then ever , exert this its power and efficacy to the conquest of the world , causing men of all sorts , in all times and places , where its Ministry comes , so to fall down before its Divine Authority , as immediately to renounce all that was dear to them in this world , and to undergo whatever as dreadful , terrible , and destructive to nature in all its dearest concernments ; it is now the work of many to insist on the particulars where in this power exerts it self , yea , it sel f doth more and more manifest its own sufficiency to condemn and save , so that I need not inlarge upon them , the workings thereof are spiritual , such as have their seat , dwelling , and abode in the hearts and consciences of men , whereby they are not liable to any exception , as though they were pretended ; men cannot hard in themselves in the rejection of the testimony the Light gives , by sending for Magicians to do the like , or by any pretence that it is a common thing that is b● fallen them on whom the Light ( Word , quoth I. O. meaning the Scripture ) puts forth its Power , as it will do when the Book of Conscience begins to open , the Seat and Residence of its effects is safe-guarded against all Power and Authority , but that of God ; it s diving into the hearts and consciences , and secret recesses of the minds of men , its judging and sentencing of them in themselves , its convictions , terrours , conquest , and killing of men , its converting , building up , making wise , holy , obedient , its administriag consolations in every condition , to which consolation belongs , and the like effects of its Power and sufficiency are usual'y spoken of , and appropriated to the Letter , by such as are ignorant of the Light , who speak what they read and hear of more then feel , as death and destruction , that hear the same of that , which is hid from them , I●b 28.22 . but are effectually felt , and experimentally known by the children of the Light , who love and live in it . These are the foundations of my Answer to I. Os. T. Ds. R. Bs. and I. Ts. grand Argument above mentioned against the sufficiency of the Light to guide men into the true knowledge and life of God , drawn from the non efficiency of that its end in all men : The Light , say we , the Law of God which is the Light in All , is not only testified to as saving by the Letter , and as powerful and sufficient in all those fore named respects ; in which I. O. sayes the Letter it self is , which the Letter faith not of it self , for all that I. O. faith in the thirteen last Sections of the fourth Cha. of his first Tr. in whose own words I have mostly spoken , by way of Answer to himself , is most true , if applyed to the Word of God indeed , which is nigh in the heart , and of the Light of Law of God in the Conscience , but every ●ot of it false , as applyed by him to a wrong subject ( viz. ) the outward Scripture , or bare Letter ; and ( as the Letter bears testimony to the Light , so the Light bears testimony enough to it self of its own sufficiency in the conscience , that testimony is the Witness of God himself , which who so doth not accept and believe , he doth what in him lies to make God a Lym ; to give us an infallible assurance , that in receiving this testimony , we are not imposed upon by cunningly devised fables , the Light ( the Scriptures ; quoth I. O. ) or Law in the heart , hath that glory of Light and Power of God accompanying of it , as wholly distinguisheth it by infallible signs and evidences from all words and writings nor divine , conveying its truth and Power into the Souls and Consciences of men , with such an infallible certainty , that it is believed , though men act contrary to it ; for when that within tells men what they should not do ( viz. ) not lye , steal , murder , cozen , nor do evil to others , that they would not have others do to them , though they do these evils , yet they cannot but believe through that Light in them , if they had never seen the Letter , that they should not do so , and that the Judgements of God are due to such as do so , and when by that they are told what they are , they by it believe truly what they are , and cannot , while they behold themselves in that glass , believe themselves to be otherwise , or better then they are , no more then a mans natural face that is beheld in a true outward glass can seem to him , or be believed by him to be fairer then it is . Thus having at large answered the main argument of these four men against the universality of a sufficient Light in All men , to lead to life such as follow it , drawn from All mens nor actually coming to life by it , which one R. B. and I. T. aiming at number more then weight , make three of their thirty , viz. the second , tenth , and thirteenth . I shall run thorough the residue more briefly , they being not worth any long insistance on them . Their third and fourth , which are but one and the same also , divided needlesly into two , they ground upon such Texts as directly prove the contrary against them ; viz. Iohn 1.5.9.10.11 . Eph. 5.8 . Matth. 14. where its said , The Light shines in darkness , and the darkness comprehends it not ; the true Light was in the world , and the world knew him not ; he came to his own , and his own received him not ; ye were sometimes darkness , &c. To them that fate in darkness , light is sprung up : . Whence they argue on this wise , many of the Iews and Gentiles sate in darkness , did nor reciive the Light , nor comprehend it , and were darkness , when the true Light came to and shined in them , therefore they had no Light in them , much less every man. Rep. Whence I argue in proof of the very contrary thus ; The true Light came to such as received at not , to such as knew it not , springs up ( as they heed it ) to such as sate in death and darkness , and shineth in the darkness , Joh. 1.9 . though the darness comprehendeth it not ; but All men , as well as some , at some time or other , are found not receiving the Light , not knowing it , sitting in darkness , and are darkness ●● therefore All men have in some measure the true Light shining in them : Besides , if this would prove that the true Light is not present with All men , because most neither know , nor receive it , but abide , dwell , sit still in darkness , and remain darkness it self , then at least it will conclude against these men another way ; viz. in disproof of the outward Letters being the true Light ; as they contend it is , since the Iews , and most Christians , so call'd , both do , and ever did dwell in darkness , and continue darkness , notwithstanding the Scriptures abode among them . Their fifth is as a very Fiddlestick as any of the former ( and all that follow it are no better ) fetch'd from Luke 16.8 . in such wise as more clearly concludes that R. B. and I. T. ( as wise Disputers of this world as they seem to be ( in suo genere ) in their be-nighted Generation ) are yet but fools as to the true Faith , and children of this world and darkness , then that All men have not some true Light in them , and it runs thus : If every man had a Light within him sufficient to guide him how to please God , then every man should be a Child of Light , but every man is not a Child of Light , therefore every man hath not a Light , &c. to guide him to God , &c. The Major of which is such a palpable inconsequence , as the least Child of Light , and of the day , cannot but both discern and be ashamed of ; for however in proof of it , 't is asserted by them , That to be a Child of Light , is all one as to be a person that hath Light in him to guide him to please God , yet if they would but consult with that Light of God which is yet in themselves ( if they have not by fighting against it cast themselves forth into the outer darkness ) and not meerly with their own dark animal understa●dings , they could not chuse but see that ( as I have shewed above ) the Light is in them that are not in it , nor as yet believing in it , and that they ●only that believe in it are the children of it , according to what Christ sayes , Iohn 12.35.36 . to such as had Light , and yet neither walked in , nor were children of it : while ye have the Light , believe in the Light , that ye may be the children of Light. Their sixth , in proof of which is cited Act. 26.18 . where Paul saith , Christ sent him to the Gentiles to open their eyes , and to turn them from darkness to light , from the power of Satan to God , is so silly , that it shews its Authors and owners shrewdly to be besorted ; whence they argue ; They who are to be turned from darkness to Light , had not a Light within sufficient to guide them to God ; But so it is said of both Jews and Gentiles ; Therefore sure they had not such a light within them as the Qua. say is in All , if they had such a Light , they should have been directed to follow it , not turned from it ; the Apostles should have call'd them , as the Qua. do , to follow the Light in them , and not have call'd them out of darkness , nor should we do , as the Apostles did , b●d men leave the darkness in them , but as the Qua. do , follow the Light in them . Rep. Flocci , Nauci , Nihili , Pili , Assis , Hujus , Teruncii ! Did ever the like toying and trisling piece of Dispotation drop from the hands of men before , as does here from the pens of these professed Disputers ? Where are the eyes of these men that they can't see ? or is it so , that they will not see how they turn that very Text upside down , they would seem to take their Tattle out of ? Was it not the business of the Apostles , to direct men to follow the Light , when they were sent to turn men to the Light ? Were they that were to be turned to the Light in that very Call they had from the Apostles to turn to it , turned from it ? Do not they who call men out of the darkness which is in them , even in that very thing call them to follow the light which shines in them also , 2 Pet. 1.19 ? Must not they who leave the darkness , of necessity look to the Light ? Can men leave the paths of uprightness , and not walk in the wayes of darkness , Prov. 2.13 . or leave the wayes of darkness , and not walk in the way of the Light ? Is there any medium between these two ? Are men to be bid to come from the power of Satan unto God , and yet have they no Light safe and sufficient lent them ( in case they be willing to come to him ) to lead and guide them unto God ? Ye blind Guides , did not Paul ( as he was sent to that end as that Text declares ) turn men from the darkness only ? Did he not turn men to the Light ? Did he turn them from it ; as in that clause ( m●n should have been directed to follow the Light , and not turned from it ) ye intimate he did ? And did not Iohn , whose Message and Ministry was the self-same as Peter's and Paul's , and that of all holy men of God , was even from the beginning , 1 Iohn 1.5.6.7 . as well that of Christ himself , Iohn 12.35.36 . declare to men , that in order to fellowship with God , is whom is no darkness at all , they should not only cease to walk in darkness , but also should walk in the light , as God is in the light ? Are ye not in this , as well as in many more matters , justly given over , and left of the Lord , for your enmity to his Light , to babble out such gross blindness and groapable darkness , as ye here do , in saying , that if men had such light , they should have been directed to follow it , and not turned from it , according to Act. 26.18 . as if Paul were there said to be sent , that by his Ministry men might be turned from the light , who is there expresly said to be sent to turn men to it ? For shame utter no more such wretched ignorance as this , left the shame of your nakedness appear at last to all men , as it does already to such as read your sapless Sermons , and have not fold themselves to see rather with your eyes , then with their own . Their seventh is on this wise wrested from Rom. 10.14.17 . Heb. 11.6 . where it s said , Without Faith it is impossible to please God : And how shall they believe in him , of whom they have not heard ? How bear without a Preacher ? So then Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God ; which ( say they ) were vain speeches , if there were another ordinary way by the Light within us to beget Faith ; therefore the Light within us is not of it self , without Preaching , a safe sufficient Guide in our way to God. Rep. True Faith is in the Light of Christ , and in the Word of God , which is that word of Faith which the Apostles preached , and testified of in their words and writings , that it was nigh to men , even in their hearts , that there they might both hear and do it , Rom. 10.1 . neither doth any man either hear or believe in Christ to Salvation , any further , then as he heeds , hears , and believes in that Light and ingrafted Word whereby Christ counsels him in his own conscience , although he should ( as the unbelieving Iews did ) hear him speaking to them with Audible Voice , or believe ( as all unbelieving Christians do ) the whole History of him according to the flesh : So then Faith unto life coming by hearing , and hearing unto life being of that Light and Word of God , which is nigh in the heart , which is the Word of both Faith and Life , the Apostles Speeches were in vain , if there were not such a Light and Word within to be believed in , to the hearing and believing in which the Apostles were sent to turn men , mens obeying of which Word within , was the end of their using those words they spake and wrote to them in from without . Moreover , we deny not Preaching without by such as are sent , as Paul was ( but Parish-Hirelings are not ) to turn men to the Light within ; but the Light within only , is that which guides and leads those , that are turned to it , and continue attending to it , sufficiently and safely unto God. Their eighth is to this purpose ; All that have access to God , must not be conformed to this world , but be transformed , renewed , put off the old man , Rom. 12.2 . Eph. 4.23 . Col. 3.10 . Therefore they have not a Light within them , as a safe sufficient guide to lead them to God Antecedent to this renewing , for if they had , what need ( say they ) such transforming , renewing , non-conformity to the world , putting off the old man. Rep. Therefore they need such renewing , transforming , putting off the old man , non-conforming to this world , because that is the good will of God concerning them , and also millions of men , who have the Light in them , that condemns and reproves them for their Rebellion against it , are not conformable thereunto ; and therefore they both have and need such a Light within them , Antecedent to that renewing ; and need also to be called upon to turn unto it , that they may thereby see how conformable they are to this evil world , and non-conformable to that Will of God , that they may thereby first know the good Will of God , which is manifested in that Light ; and secondly , by obeying that Light , be conformed to that Will , and no more unto the world , but transformed by the renewing of their minds : So that whereas they conclude all men ought to be renewed after Gods Image , &c. therefore All have it not ; I contrariwise conclude , All ought to be renewed according thereunto , &c. therefore All have a light sufficient to lead them , as théy follow it , into the Image of God. Their ninth is a sottish shameful Tergiversation , a Re substrats , from the Question , into another matter , as clear contrary to the subject in hand , as light and darkness are to each other ; yea , instead of persevering to prosecute the proof of their Proposition , concerning the non-sufficiency of the Light in All men , they fall a proving the insufficiency of the darkness in All men , to be a sufficient rule to life , and safe guide of men unto God ; at the end of which they entail a most abominable lye against the Quakers , saying , The Qua. prescribe that unto men as their Rule , which God counts their Curse ; and what 's that ? Scilicet , the thing that of All things the Quak. of all men , who call men to Gods Light within , do call men out of ; viz. the counsels , imaginations , and lusts of their own hearts , which men ( say the Qua. ) walking in , and b●ides the Light of God , and hearkening to , and not to the Voice of God ( which I. O. confesses , page 44. ( though in his folly he calls it Natural ) to be Gods Light in every conscience ) come under the Laws curse , and make their own misery great upon them : The A●gument is briefly thus : To leave a person to h●s own imagination , lust , to walk in his own counsel , in his own way , which is all one as to leave him to the Light within him , is reckoned as the greatest Curse and Iudgement to a man from God , for refusing to hearken to Gods Voice , as the Text shews , Psa. 81.11.12 . Therefore the Light within each person , is of it self no safe guide . Rep. That the Qua. call to the Light within , and to stand in the Councel of God which is the Light within , which condemns all the lusts of mens hearts , and their own vain counsels and imaginations , is most true : But , if ye be not past shame , be ye ashamed and blush , both at your own blaspheming the Light of God , and belying of the Qua. who in your blindness ( for which Wo is unto you except ye repent , Isa. 5. ) cal good evil , and light darkness , and cannot see to put a difference between Gods Light , and mans lust , the Councel , Law , and Way of God in every conscience , which leads to life , blessing , and peace , and the vain wayes and thoughts of man , and Law of sin , that lusts to envy and all evil , and leads to cursing and condemnation : And secondly , cannot understand the Qua any otherwise , then as calling men to their own hearts lusts , when they expresly , and in Terminis , ca'l Ad men to that Light of God in them , which makes manifest , and condemns every ones own lust in every heart : Generation of Vipers , where did ye ever hear , or hear of any Qua. or any one that 's owned by them in their Ministry , prescribe mans own counsel , imagination , or hearts lust , to him as their Rule ? Do they not as Iohn Baptist did , bear witness to that true Light which enlightaēth every man that cometh into the world ? Do they not as Christ did , call men to walk and believe in the Light while they have it , that they may be the children of it , least utter darness come ( as 't is already on your selves , so that ye know not whether ye go ) upon them ? Do they not with Paul , ( whom ye wot to have received some message to turn men from it ) speak to men to turn from the darkness to the light , from the power of Satan , the Ruler of the darkness of this world , unto God ? Do they not tell men with Peter , That there 's a sure word of Prophesie for them , to which they do well to take heed , as to a light that shines in the dark place of their hearts , till the day dawn , and the day-star arise there ? Do they not with Iohn tell men , That God is Light , and in the Light , and that in him is no darkness at all ; and that if men ( be their form never so fair ) say they have fellowship with God , and walk in darkness , and the lusts of the flesh ( as Papists , Pralaticks , Presbyterians , Independents , and other our-side Professors do ) they do but lye , and do not the truth ; but if they walk in the Light , as God is in it , then God and they have fellowship together , and there the Blood of his Son is felt clearsing from all sin ? which ye say men cannot be thoroughly cleansed from , while they live here , and so harden men in their own hearts lusts ; and is all this of the Qua. a prescribing to men their hearts lusts , as their rule ? Do you understand Christ , Paul , Peter , Iohn , and All the Prophets calling to the Light , Isa. 2. as Isaiah , Come ye , let us walk in the Light of the Lord , he will teach u : of his wayes , we will walk in his paths , so as ye do us , when we restifie the same truth often in their own words , as calling men to follow their own wayes , thoughts , counsels , imaginations , hearts lusts ? If ye take us as intending so , when we call to the Light , why not them ? If not them , why us , who say the same ? Is the word Light more offensive , more unsavoury , more difficult to be understood , more savouring of lust , more sounding like lust out of our mouths , whom ye superlatively abhor , then out of theirs , whom ye now superstitiously adore ? But so it alwayes fell out , as I.O. truly sayes , page 59.60 , 61. that scarce any Prophet that spake in the Name of God , had any approbation from the Church , in whose dayes he spake , people being so eminently perplexed with false Prophets ( in the latter dayes , of the Iewish Church especially ) both as to their number and subtilty , speaking lyes against the truth ; therefore no marvel it is so now in these last dayes of the Church of the outside Christians ; and as the next Age to that which flew them , began still to build Sepulchres in remembrance of them , so the time is neer to come , wherein ye , or your Successors , who cast out the name of Gods People called Qua. as evil now , shall ( what ere ye dream ) be forced to say there 's a Seed among them which sincerely serves the Lord , which shall be counted to him for a Generation , and to confess ( as much as they are now a curse among men ) that they are the Seed whom God hath blessed . Virtutem incolumem odimus Sublatam ex oculis Quaerimus invidi . Their eleventh argument from Jude 19. Having not the Spirit , John 14.17 . The Spirit of Truth , whom the world cannot receive , is this , Every man hath not the Spirit of God ; therefore every man hath not a light within sufficient to guide him to God. Rep. Every man that hath not so long resisted , grieved , quenched the motions of the Spirit of God striving in him , that it thereupon is taken from him , as it was from those sensual ones Iude speaks of , whom God had given over to their lusts , hath the Spirit striving within him , and that 's enough to our purpose , who own such a state , that some may be given over to , for not using what they had , while they had it , as wherein to have wisdome ( at whose reproof they would not turn ) withdraw and leave them to the way of folly , and the good Spirit depart from them ( as he did from Saul , Iudas , the Iews , and others ) and leave the house , even their hearts wholly desolate and destitute of his presence , for the evil spirit , that lusteth in men to envy , to enter and totally to possess them , and the talent , or measure of Gods Light within ( sith they would not trade with it ) taken away from them , that the outwa●d darkness might come upon them , and the grace of God that brought Salvation to them ( which at some time or other appears to all men , Tit. 2.11.12 . ) sith they would not learn of it to to deny ungodliness , but turned it into wantonness , and received it in vain , despising the riches of it when it would have led them to repentance , leave them to the impenitency and hardness of their hearts , that they might fill up their measure of sin , and so wrath come upon them to the utmost ; but all this proves not , but that once they had it , or else Christ would not have said to such as yet walk't not in it , Walk in the light while ye have it , least darkness come upon you , and ye know not whither ye go ; nor could your selves say rationally ( as ye do to wicked men often ) O people ! now while his good Spirit moves in your spirits , resist not , quench not his motions , left ( like them that lay at the Pool of Bethesda , not stepping in while the Angel moved on the waters ) you be left unhealed forever : Work whilst its day , left the night come on you , wherein none can work , his spirit will not strive alwayes , &c. As for the worlds not receiving the Spirit , so as to walk in it , it proves not that God gives it not any more , then that they have no grace given them of God , because they receive it in vain ; and ye may as well say unreasonable men have no principle of reason left in them , because they live not by it , as that they have not a sufficient light in them to lead them , because they do not walk in it : Besides , it is expressly said of Christ , that by the same Spirit by which himself was quickned , he went and preached to the spirits in prison , i. e. to their own lusts , which were disobedient in the old world , in the dayes of Noah , which was not by his Ministry without only , as the dream , but within also in their own hearts . Their twelfth runs thus ; The Son did not reveal the Father to every man , nor did every man come to Christ ; therefore every man had not a light within him sufficient to guide him to God. Rep. The consequence of this is utterly false , for though the world hates Christ the Light , and comes not to him , yet he is come a light into the world ; this he , that 's not willingly ignorant of it , can scarcely chuse but see , if he read Iohn 3.16.17.18.19.20.21 . it follows not because men come not into Christs Light , that therefore it is not come into them , it being ( as is shewed above ) one thing for the Light to be in men , another for them to be in it . I am come that they might have life ( faith Christ of the Jews ) John 10. yet ye search the Scriptures , and therein look for Eternal life , but will not come to me that ye may have life ( faith he to the Scribes , Iohn 5. ) both these comings of each to other are necessary to the life , else though the Light that is able to lead to it be in men , they , not being led by it , cannot have it . Moreover , Christ does by his Light reveal the Father to such as hate both him and his Father , though they like not to know him thereby , else he could not say truly ( as he does ) to such , Iob. 22.23.24 . If I had not come and spoken to them , they had not had sin , but now they have no cloak for their sin ; If I had not done in them the works which none other doth , they had not had sin , but now they have both seen and hated , both me and my Father : In what measure men see the mind and will of Christ and his Father manifested in them by the Light within , Rom. 1.19 . and hate that , they see and hate both Christ and his Father , whose Light , and Mind , and Will that is which appears to them . Their fourteenth is urged by them from Texts of Scripture , every of which most clearly prove , or rather positively asserts the very thing they contend against ; viz. that Christ is come a Light to them that sit in darkness , and so all men do , a Light to the Nations , a light into the world , that whosoever ( that is in the world he is come into ) believeth in him , should not perish , nor walk , nor abide in darkness , but have the light of life , Iohn 3.19.8.12 . 9.5.12.46 . for not coming to which , nor believing in which , not loving but hating of which , not living by which only , the world comes to be condemned : Were ever men so blinded ? But ( say they ) Christs coming a Light into the World would be needless , if every man had a light in him before Christs coming into the World , sufficient to guide him in the way to God : Therefore the Quakers Opinion about the light in each person is a manifest errour . Rep. Your apprehension of the Qua. Opinion , is either a manifest errour , or a wilful piece of ignorance , or a miserable mistake , or something , for they hold no such thing as a light in each man sufficient to guide him without , or besides that of Christ , or before Christs coming into the world , but that the whole world lying in wickedness , and sitting in darkness , Christ is sent a Light to enlighten them , who without him are lost , and that he who is that true Light doth more or less , by his coming into the world , enlighten every man that comes into it . The fifteenth concludes a lye against the Qua. as denying the use of , and dehorting from searching the Scriptures , which while Christ , Iohn 5.39 . bids search ; and Paul , 2 Tim. 3.15.16.17 . sayes are useful and profitable ; the Qua. say no ( say they ) but look to the light within you . Rep. I say , though the Qua. say , look to the light within ( as Christ and Paul did ) yet they no more deny the usefulness of the Scripture , then either of those Scriptures ye quote proves that absolute necessity of the Scripture as to Salvation , which ye seem to plead , though Christ and Paul never did so ; nor do we any more dehort from searching the Scripture , then Christ , Iohn 5.39 . exhorteth to search them , which is not at all in that Text ; for howbeit Ereunate , search , may be rendred either Indicatively , or Imperatively , as to its own signification ( as I elsewhere shew ) its most evident that he speaks there by way of complaint of the Scribes , for looking for life in the Scriptures , without coming to him who is the Light , ver . 40. and not by way of command to search them , ye search , not search ye . Their sixteenth is from Isa. 8.20 . Psa. 119.105 . To the Law , and to the Testimony ; if they speak not according to this Word , there is no light in them : Thy Word is a light to my feet , a lamp to my path ; whence they sillily argue , or rather blindly assert the Qua. Opinion and Speech concerning a sufficient light in All men , to be contrary to the Law , and Testimony , and Gods Word , Ordinances , Ministry , and many other things ; and therefore erroneous , and without light in it . Rep. The Antecedent here is most false ; for the Law , Testimony , and Word there spoken of , which is a Lamp and Light to the feet and path , and according which who speaks not , it is because the morning is not yet to him ( for the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , through the mistranslation of which phrase thus , there 's no light in him , many ( not knowing the Hebrew ) and many that know it ( not heeding it ) make no small ado against the Lights being in All men ( as Vavasor Powell did once at Eltham ) is no other then that Light within , even that word which David had , and hid within him , that he might not sin against God , by which young men taking heed thereunto , may come to cleanse their way , Psa. 119.9 . that Word of Faith that is nigh in the heart , which the Apostles preached or witnessed to , Rom. 10. that Law and Commandment , which is said to be a Lamp and Light , Prov. 6. that inward testimony of Iesus , or Spirit of Prophesie , which we , with all the Prophees of old , by words and Scriptures , bear our outward testimony unto , call'd by Peter , 2 Pet. 1.19 . the more sure word of Prophesie , to which men do well to give heed , as unto a light shining in the dark place of their heart , till the day dawn , and the day star arise therein . This I say , and not the external Text ( as ye all triflingly talk ) is that Law , and Testimony , and Word , there spoken of , even the Law and Testimony that comes , and is written , and is given and received immediately from and out of God and Christ's own Light , Voice , and mouth , in the hearts , minds , and consciences of all people , which his own people only give ear and hearken to , even the Rod , the Spirit , the Word and Sword of his mouth , which Priests and all people are summoned to seek to , to stand in as Gods own Counsel , and to take counsel at , and be cover'd with , and take heed to their way by , that they may not sin against the Lord , and which all the wicked that sin against , must once be slain by ( Psa. 37.31 . Isa. 51.7.30.1 . Ier. 31.33.32.40 . Ezek. 11.19.36.26 . Zach. 2.6.7.8.9 . Ier. 23.15.16.17.18.22.26.27 . &c. ) Hos. 4.6.12 . 2 Thes. 2.8.19 . Rev. 15.28 ) which the Priests above all others usually depart from , and forget , and are partial in , and cause people in stumble at , and forget , who therefore neither profit people , nor thrive in any thing but ignorance and deceit themselves , because they stand not in it , from whom , though their Schools are call'd Nurseries of learning , Well-heads of true Religion and Divinity , there goes forth no true Divination , but sottishness and profaneness into all lands . This is that Law and living Word , and true testimony , even the Light and Word of God in the heart , a testimony that 's said to be bound up from the outward Israel , which may have the outward Bible bound among them ; a Law that 's said to be sealed up among Christs Disciples from the sight of the be-nighted Seers , which such as seek to , seek to the Lord himself ; and such as forsake , go from the Fountain of the living water , to broken Cisteers ; and such as leave for an outward letter , leave the living for the dead , and seek for the living Lord among the dead : These are the Wells of Salvation , out of which Souls should draw the living Water , which the Philistines in envy to the Seed of Abraham , will strive alway to slop , till the Lord make room for them to flow out to the full . These are that Word , Law , and Testimony , and not the most Original Copies of the Letter , as I.O. and ye all with him do emptily imagine , page 216. which who so deprives of the Hebrew Punctation , by proving the novelty thereof , do with Abimelechs servants , no less then utterly stop the Wells or Fountains from whence ye should draw all your Souls refreshment . These ( as I have shewed so abundantly above , at the end of my third Exercitation , in answer to I.O. that I shall need say no more here in proof thereof ) are the matters meant by the said Law and Testimony , Isa. 8.20 . which are not contrary to the writing without neither , and the true outward Ministry and Ordinances , but consonant thereunto , which inward Law , Word , and Testimony your selves being contrary to , and opposing , are therein contrary to Gods Word , and the outward Scripture of it also ; therefore not the Qua. who own all these , but your own Opinion is erroneous , and your speech is without light . The seventeenth from Eph. 4.11 . runs thus : The Opinion and practise of the Qua. makes every man a Teacher , and Teachers set by God for the work of the Ministry needless , as if th●y were no gift , but a burden to the Church , cryes them down ; therefore it s contrary to Gods and Christs way , and so Antichristian . Rep. The Antecedent here is a false tale , and a meer slander of the Qua. for neither do they so much as doctrinally make every man , a Teacher , for they deny both your selves , and all that side with you , to be men fit to be Teachers of others , unless ye were better taught your selves , or had learn't the truth of God much better then as yet ye have done ; and howbeit they know your Ministry , who are set by men to minister for money , to be not only needless , but also useless , fruitless , unprofitable , burdensome , chargeable , and more destructive , then saving both to peoples Souls , and to the Nations ; yet we own All Teachers set by God for the work of the Ministry ( which are such only as are made Ministers by gifts of God from above , and not such as buy their gifts at University , that they may fell them again ) to be both needful , useful , and profitable , both to the turning people of the world to the Light & Word within , that thereby they may be begotten into Christs Nature , and also to the edifying of the Saints in their faith in that Light , till they come up into the measure of the fulness of Christs stature ( a state which ye deny to be so much as attainable in this life , so far are ye from building any up into it ) neither ( as much as we are call'd to cry out against you , as all the true Prophets ever did against the hireling Priests ) do we at all cry down such gifts , or gifted men , as God gives to his Church ; but wot you well , that your selves are the men who are found fighters against such , who making the Gospel a meer trade to live on , ingross that trade wholly to your selves , and make every man a Teacher that has been train'd up at University , and can handle his tongue well to talk for the Priests and Tythes , though never fitted for that holy calling by the gift of Gods Grace , or good life ( witness the general blindness and bruitishn●ss of the Brittish Priesthood ) but own no men as true Teachers , but Deluders and Fanatick , that in their Ministry do but pretend to be immediately gifted and guided by Gods Infallible Spirit : And whereas we say , that Christ Iesus receives gifts for all men , even for the rebellious also , and that no less then this gift , that the Lord God may dwell in them , if they look to him in his Light , in which he draws nigh unto every man , yet contrary both to us and that Text , out of which you talk , which , compar'd with that Paul alludes to , Ps 68 : 18. betokens such gifts for the rebellious , do you deny All men to have so much as the least measure of such light , as however attended to , can lead to God , oe to witness Gods dwelling in them . The eighteenth is from Eph. 1.17 . where Paul prayes , That God would give them the spirit of Wisdome , and Revelation of the knowledge of him , that the ●yes of their understandings might be enlightned : The Opinion of the Qua. ( say they ) of each mans light in him a sufficient safe rule and guide in his way to God , makes it unnecessary to pray for the Spirit to enlighten mens eyes in the knowledge of God ; therefore indeed it is impious . Rep. Who would think men should be so blind , unless they wilfully shut their own eyes ? having some grace , some measure of light , renders it needless , it seems , by these Seers , to pray for more , and praying for more and more of Gods Spirit , Light , and Grace , supposes ( it seems ) that there 's yet none at all ; and so upon this account , the Church of the Ephesians as yet had no illumination by the Spirit , any more then the rest of men , because there was prayer made , that they might be enlightned ; and David had none of Gods Spirit , because he prayes to be established more and more by it , and the humble have none of that Grace of God at all which is sufficient , because they may have , and God promiseth to give them more : What f●ivilosity is this for Divines to be found in ? The nineteenth is urged from Psa. 19.12 . Who can understand his errors ? In brief to this effect , No men understand their errors ; therefore each mans Light in him is not a sufficient and safe rule , and guide to him , in his way to God. Rep. If the falmists Interrogation affirmative concludes negatively , and exclusively of any mens having any sufficient Light , then it concludes universally also against All mens having any such light , and so upon this account the Saints themselves are excluded , as having no such Light , as well as other men , sith ( according to R. B. and I. Ts. sense on that place ) they understand not all the errours of their lives ; but R. B. and I. T. will not deny but the Saints have some measure of such Light ; and therefore why others have not ( though they use it not , that ignorance of all their errors notwithstanding ) is more then these two men can give any good reason for . The twentieth from Act. 17.30 . runs thus , God commands all men every where to repent of their ignorant worship of him ; therefore each mans sight in him is not a sufficient guide for him to go by in Gods worship . Rep. From which premises I contrariwise conclude thus ; viz. therefore all and each man every where ( though few heed it ) hath a sufficient Light in him from God ( as the Heathen had , though they glorified and worshipped him not according to that Light and knowledge of him they had , Rom. 1.19 . &c. ) to guide him aright in Gods Worship , who commands no impossibilities , nor injoyns any man to worship him , otherwise then answerably to what of himself and of his Will , is by his own light made manifest in him . The 21. is from Prov. 3.5.6.7 . Rom. 12.16 . on this wise ; The Quakers Opinion concerning each mans own light in him , makes men proud , and lifted up , and prudent in their own sight , to which wo is , Isa. 5.21 . and to lean to their own understanding ; and not to depend on God for teaching them in his wayes ; therefore , &c. Rep. Cuius contrarium verum est ; If by own Light , these men straggle so far from the Question in hand , as to intend , as they seem to do , mans own wisdome , churs●l , thoughts , conceits , imaginations , &c. no men in the world call men more out of these things so plainly , so earnestly , so constantly , as the Quakers do ; but if they be steady in their dispute ( as good Disputants ought to be ) ad Rem substratam , to the matter debated , which is some measure of the true Light of God and Christ●s the calling to this is so far from making men lean to their own understanding , and Independent , on Gods teachings ; that there 's no man in the world can be said truly to be low , emptied of self , mean in his own eyes , to trust in the Lord with all his heart , and in all his wayes , to acknowledge him , to leave leaning to his own understanding , to stand in Gods Counsel ( which woe to him who does not , Isa. 38.1 . ) to learn of God , and depend on him alone for teaching , to hear his voice , &c. ( though he scrape with the Scribes daily in the Scriptures themselves , Iob. 5.35 , 36. till he betake himself to attendance to that , which God sayes and shews in him by the measure of that Light wherewith God shines into his conscience : Wo therefore unto these men that call Gods counsel mans conceit , they are wise in their own eyes , and prudent in their own sight , though , in the sight of God and his Saints , not yet weaned from their foolishness , as they are also of that Generation that are pure in their own eyes , though not yet washed , nor believing that while they live here , they can perfectly be washed from their filthiness . The 22. is no other then the same with the 21. though alluding to two other Texts from which they fetch them ; viz. Iudg. 17.6 . Psal. 106.39 . In those dayes there was no King in Israel , but every man did that which was right in his own eyes , and they went a whoring with their own inventions , where they make doing after mens own thoughts , conceits , inventions , and looking to , or following the Light within us Synonimous , and this last a sign of wicked men , and going a whoring from God , and departing from God , unsafe , and such like ; concluding thus , viz. The truth is , God forbid ; the following of our own supposed light , as the greatest impiety , which the Quakers place all their godliness in . Rep. This is nought but another impudent lye against the Quakers , as well as a most evidently foolish extravagancy from the Question , which is not about our own supposed Light , but some measure of that undoubted Light of God , ( which ( though ignorantly by you stiled natural ) yet is not denied to be true Light , and that from God , and not our own , supposed only so to be . The Quak. place none of their godliness in such meer supposed light , as ye do , who suppose the ignis fatius of your dark and silly s●nses and suppositions on the Letter , as sufficient light for all people to live by , their faith stands not in mans wisdome , nor in that Science of you opposite Schoolmen , which is falsly so called and supposed , but in that real infallible Light within , which is the W●sdome and Power of God ; and as for Al departure , and going a whoring from God , and his Light within , after mans own inventions and thoughts in things of God , which is that impiety of the Priests , that God forbids and abominates , we deny and abhor it also . The 23. which is from the first of the two last Texts , and the 24th , which is from Pro. 14.12 . are both also besides the business , and urg'd in disproof of that sufficiency of supposed light , and the way that seems right only in mans eyes , and is not so ; this we have nothing to do with , but deny it against the Priests , who unawares to themselves , are walking therein , as the way to death ; but that we plead for is the true Light , Iohn 1.9 . which lightens every man , and is the only true way that leads to life . And whereas the consequence of their 23. seems to be to this effect ; If every man had a light in him sufficient to guide him in right and good wayes , then Kings and Rulers should not punish men for walking in the wrong and evil wayes that seem good and right in their own eyes . Rep. I contrariwise conclude , that if men had not such a light in them , as is sufficient to guide them in good wayes , then Kings and Rulers should not punish them for going into evil wayes ; for as 't were an unjust thing to require ( not of him , that seeing will not see , as those , Math. 13. ) of such a blind man as never could see , to see the right way which was never shewed him , and to punish him for not walking therein ; so were it in Rulers to punish men for following filthy wayes , and evil things , if they did not ( videre meliora ) i. e. see and know how to do better , for to him who knows good , and does it not , evil and declines it not , both which are known by the light that is in the world , i. e. in men ( though some for want of heed , say the light in the conscience shews the evil , but not the good ) to him only it is sin to condemnation . The 25. from Prov. 22.6.15 . concludes , That if each man have some such true light in him , then there 's no need of training up children , in whose hearts foolishness is bound up , in the way they should go , by the rod and teaching ; for what need of the rod ( say they ) then to drive fully out . Rep. I reply ; to drive it out , and bring them into the way of wisdom , which is in them , and seen by them ( but not much heeded till they smart far it ) as well as the way of Folly : This Argument holds as much against Gods correcting such whom ye confess to know his will , and do it not , as against our correcting children , whom we correct for not doing what we know they know they shold do ; for no father but he that 's foolish will whip his child for any thing as a fault , but that which his child knew to be so : So fools come to be plagued , sayes the Spirit , because of offences they fly out into , that ( if they be not incorrigible ) they with the wife may look well to , and ponder their goings . Our Doctrine concerning All mens knowing in some measure , by his Light within themselves , the good will of God , destroyes not , but establishes the whip for the Horse , the Bridle for the Afs , and the Rod for the back of such fools , as turn aside from the truth that 's told them into folly ; nor does this any more conclude against teaching children then m●t , with both which it is consistent , for the end of our teachings of both , are to turn them to attend to the Light and Truth it self within them , that doth teach them ; yea , even children , as they come to a few years of Discretion : I remember well that before I could read the Scripture ( which I could read when very young ) I knew by that of God in me , and not from my Parents only , whose witness without could not have been credited therein by me , had not the Witness of God , which is the greater , testified the same within my self , that I should not lye , and was judged with fears of wrath , if ever I made a lye , as children are apt to do , to escape a whipping for a lesser fault . If then it be ask't why we teach men and children : I answer , to bring and turn them ( as Paul was sent to do ) from the darkness , in which they walk beside it , into the Light , Which whether they walk in it or no , is yet in them ; and because they are not come to it ( as all true men do ) but hate and decline it with the evil ones , whose condemnation it therefore is , because though they come not into it , it is already come into them , Iohn 3.19.20.21 . And with this short self-same Answer , now it s brought into my spirit , I shall here wipe out of the way a whole parcel of pedling Queries of R. Baxter , about the the Light , as they lie together in his Epistle to the Reader , before I. Ts. book , into the pit of darkness , from whence they were exerted . R. B. Q. I. I would fain ( quoth he ) be resolved in these few Questions : How comes it to pass that all Nations that never beard the Gospel , are utterly void of Faith in Christ , when the Nations that have the Gospel do generally know him more or less ? Aus . To say nothing , how little true knowledge of God is in these Nations , that he grants have the Gospel , meaning in an outward Ministry , for else I know no Nation that hath not some of that Light which is Gods Gospel in them , any more then Paul did , who said , The Gospel is preached in every creature under Heaven , 1 Col. 23. and Rom. 10. Have they not all heard ? ( i. e. the Gospel ) yes verily , &c. The reason why all the Nations have so little as they all have , is , Because they come not to the Light which is come into them . R. B. Q. 2. Why did not the world believe in Christ even generally before his coming , if Reason was then a sufficient light ? Ans. How far forth right reason taken ( not for the bare natural faculty which a fool may have ) but for that supernatural gift of God whereby to guide men out of all bruitish wayes , and his light we restiffe to , which is not against , but according to right reason , are Synonimous , it matters not to be medled with in this place ; but to the Query I reply the same still , viz. B●cause men came not to that light of God which was in them . R. B. Q. 3. Why did Christ preach himself while he was on earth , if the people had sufficient light before ? Ans. Christ speaking then audibly to the outward ear , through that voice he then used , preach't himself indeed , that he was the Light of the World , the Wo●d ●f God , and the Life and Light of men from the beginning , and not from that time only of that his outward appearance unto a few , Iohn 1.1.2 . and to this end did he preach himself as a light in men ( for the Word was made flesh , and dwelt in us , sayes Iohn , Ioh. 1.12 . ) bidding them believe in the light , i.e. his light in them , and so in himself who is the light , that they might be the children of it , and walk in the light while they had it , and come to the light , and such like ; because the men to whom he preach't thus , were not come to that light of his , which was come into them . R. B. Q 4. Why did he send his Apostles to preach through the world , if the p●ople had sufficient light before ? Ans. To the same end for which he sent Iohn , 1 Ep. 1.1.4.5.6 . that they might walk with God in the light , and not in the darkness , as they did , though the light was in them ; and fo● which he sent Paul to the Na●ions , Act. 26. to turn them from the darkne●s to the light , from the power of Satan unto God ; and because men wanted to be instructed which way to look for the Life of God which they had lost ; and because they yee not yet come into that Light of God that only leads to it , which was come into them . R. B. Q. 5. Why did he set Pastors and Teachers in his Church , if all have a sufficient light within them ? Ans. That his Church , which is in God , being turned from the world , and the darkness of it to the light , might by their memorandums of the things they knew , 2 Pet. 1. be kept stedfast in their watch to the light , unmoveable and abundant , alwayes in that work of the Lord , believing in the light ( which work the world are not yet come to ) and to abide in Christ the Light ( as branches in the Vine ) and in the teachings of the Annointing , which is the truth , and no lye , that it might teach them by degrees all things , and lead them into all truth , as it had into some already , that the Saints might as branches grow up in all things into him , even the express Image and likeness of him , who is the one head over All to the body , and the express Image of the Fathers being , in whom is no guile , for the perfecting of the Saints ( a thing ye seeming Saints deny to be attainable in ●he body ) for the work of the Ministry , for the edifying of the body , till all that are begotten into the nature , may come into the unity of the faith , and knowledge of Gods Son , even unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ , Eph. 4. Joh. 15. 1 Joh. 2. Finally , because men come to the light ( if not exhorted to continue in their faith in it ) may again go out from that light of God , which ( unless it take occasion by their wilful departings from it , to depart at last from them ) is come unto them , and continually in them . R. B. Q. 6. Why do the Quakers go up and down teaching men their own doctrines , if all men have sufficient light already ? Ans. Not their own doctrines , but the doctrines of Christ , and to call men into it , and to counsel such as are come into it , as Ioh. Ep. 2. to abide in Christs own doctrine or teaching , that they ( as who doth not so hath neither ) may have both Son and the Father ; and because m●n generally are not come into that Light of God , which is already come into them . R. B. Q. 7. Why do they cry out against us , as being in darkness , when all men have sufficient light in them ? Ans. Were there no other thing but this one vain thought of yours , that there 's no difference between mens being in the light , and the light 's being in them , it s enough of it self , without any more ado , to proclaim you to be in darkness , for if ye were in the light of common reason that is in you , 't would tell you , as well as the Scripture , that the light shines in the darkness , though it comprehends not the light , that it shews the way to them that walk beside it , though they walk not in it , because they hate it , but in the darkness which they love more then it , being fallen in love with its evil deeds , Ioh. 1. Ioh. 3. and so to the Query , we say ye are in darkness , because ye among other men are not yet come into that sufficient light , which if ye would once but singly look to , ye should feel is already come into you . R. B. Q. 8. Will they pray for more Light and Grace , or not , if not , they are impiously proud ; if yea then it seems they have not yet light and grace sufficient ? Ans. We do pray for more Light and Grace , and God gives more and more to the bumble , as I have shewed above ; but if ye were not with all the climbers up another way , Iob. 10.1 . either too proud to stoop to come into the knowledge of the truth by the door , the light , or so blind as to groap f●r the wall , like them that have no eyes , ye could not but see that their praying for more , and Gods giving more grace unto the humble , is so far from evincing that they have none , as that it evidently evinces they have some already ; for if men had no grace , and should pray for it , they might be said to pray for some ; but no man can be properly said to pray for more light and grace , but such as ( at least ) have some already . R. B. Q. 9. Whereas they say the Light within is sufficient , if obeyed , our Question is , Whether it be sufficient to make men obey it ? &c. that 's the Grace we are speaking of , that causeth men to hearken , believe , and obey , for faith is not of your selves , but it is the gift of God , and mens hearts must be opened as Lydia's was , Act. 16. to hear abd receive the truth revealed . Now to say that the Light or Grace which is given to cause us to believe and obey , is sufficient if we will believe and obey , is ridiculous ; as if Christ should have said to Lazarus , I will raise thee , if thou will raise thyself . Ans. Here R. B. sits besides the cushion , as much as he that queries beside the Question , for that 's not the Grace we are speaking of , that is sufficient to cause men to obey , but that which is sufficient if obeyed , that 's the testimony the Qua. bear to the Light of God , it is saving to such as walk in it ; and if it be not sufficient Grace from God to R. Baxter , that he hath given him a Light that will lead him to life , if he will follow it , but he lacks more , even to be caused to walk in that light , or else he quarrels with it as not enough , and with that Grace of Gods as no Grace , because he is not compelled by force to accept of it , he may fret himself till he fry in the fire of his own peevish spirit , before he shall find such a Grace from God to his Salvation , while himself lives in the neglect of that he has , like the unprofitable servant , that charges God foolishly as a hard Master , though he hath given him a talent to trade with , unless ( while he sits still ) God force him to trade with it whether he will or no. As for us called Quakers , we judge God hath done well for us , in working in us to will and to do , i.e. the Power , and hath ( though not in R.Bs. , compulsive way caused us ) put us into a capacity to work it out , and left us ( as he looks all men should do when he has done the other , Phil. 2.12 . 13. ) to work out our own Salvation with fear and trembling , and that he doth by a Ministry without , and a measure of his spirit within counselling us , open our hearts , as he did Lydia's , to attend to what himself and his servants say , and if ever we believe in his Light to our life , that Faith is his gift , though our act , as 't is his gift that we may , or have power either to sit or stan● , and , of his Grace , our act , when we chu●e either to stand or sit ; nor we count it ridiculous ( as R. B. does ) to say , That Gods Light and Grace is sufficient to bring us to life , if we attend it , though God leave us to chuse , when he hath given it us , whether we will improve it , or turn f●om it ; nor was it ridiculous in Christ to say to Lazarus , I will raise thee , if thou will raise by self ; for Christ having done in his part in quickning , left Lazarus to his part in rising , and in effect said the same , which R. B. counts ridiculous , viz. Lazarus , come forth , which if Lazarus had not done , he might have perisht in that Sepulchre , for all Christ had quickned him so as to gi●e him the power to come forth , for Christ would not have pull●d him out by force , if he had refu●ed to come forth when he called him , nor any more then 't was in God to say , Hear ye deaf , and look ye blind , that ye may see . But as for this man R. B. and his fellows , 't is not grace enough , nor cou●t sie s●fficient ( it seems ) if a man invite poor folks to dinner , and prepares meat enough for all comers , and bids his Guests Welcome when they are come , and compels them by all earnest perswasion to sit down , and bids them , as God does , Eat , O friends , drink , yea , drink abudantly , O beloved , when they are ●ate , unless , when they refuse , he open their mouths in some forcible manner , and cause them to eat all that is set before them , such troublesome guests as these , of which sort are R. B. and the rest that look for such a compulsive causing , when the grace of a sufficient Feast is vouch fast unto them , are not fit to sit at great mens tables , much le●s at Gods , and by my consent he that ( unless he be forcibly fed ) refuses to feed when the meats before him ( whether it be at a feast of sat things of mans making , or of Gods ) shall ( while others hearken , and let their souls delight themselves in fatness ) have his choice to sit still , and ( as the Proverb is ) may fast and welcome . I conclude then as to Query , that God puts men into capacity to come to the Light , if they will not chuse darkness before it , that Light is sufficient to save , if obeyed , yet all men , who all have s●me of it , are not saved by it , and the reason is , because they will not come to that Light of G●d , which in Gods good will towards them , in come into them . R. B. Q. 10. But how can Light be sufficient ( were a man never so obedient ) to reveal that which was never manifested by it , or by any Rev●lation that doth accompany it ? No Light among the Heathens in America doth tell them , that Christ was Incarnate , died , rose , ascended , or intercedeth for us , or is the King , Priest , or Teacher of his Church , or will raise the dead , and judge the world ; how then can this light be sufficient to bring them to the belief of this ? Ans. Is the Light in America then any more insufficient to lead its followers to God , then the Light in Europe , Asia , Africa , the other three parts of the World ? I have ever lookt upon the Light in All men ( since I began to look to it in my self ) as one and the self-same light in all where it is , in sort and kind , though different in degree and measure , which varies not the nature of any thing , and that ( according to the measure of it , and in ●uch wi●e as it s attended to withall ) it shews the same things in all men , as to the myst●●y , substance , and spirituali●y of them , though the outward History of this in an outward Letter , some may be better skill'd the ein then some . I wot how Cornelius came to be accepted in his Prayers and Almes , as a man truly fearing God , before by an outward Ministry he ever heard of Christ Inca●nate dying , rising , ascending , interceding , &c. ( after all the●e things were outwardly and actually transfacted also ) since all you agree , and we with you , that out of the knowledge of Christ , the Light , there 's no acceptance at all with God , nor in any other name , either Iustification or Salvatio● : Was it not in his obedience to the Light he had , which came from Ch●ist , the Light , though as yet he knew him not after the fl●sh ? And by what light did they who wrote of Christs Incarnation , Death , Resurrection , Ascensi●n , &c. See them , before they wrote , as some did , viz. Ab●aham , who saw his day , before any History , or Letter of your Scripture at all was w●itt●n ? Was it not by that ( as they walk on with God in it , from Abel , Enoch , Noah , and downward ) some measure of which ( but that they minded it not , as some few did , but were ever alienated from it , walking in their own wayes ) was in all Nations as well as some , and not more ( save only in measure ) in the Prophets , then in other men ? And did not this light without and b●fore the Letter help some ( even such still as walk't after it ) to the belief of this , and that God would raise the dead , and judge the world , which they wrote in the Light and Spirit in which they saw it , and in that wisdome which in all Ages , Wisd. 7. entering into holy souls that heed it , makes them friends of God and Prophets ? Were these things then , as R. B. thinks in his Query , never manifested by the Light without the Letter , nor by any Revelation that doth accompany the Light , were men never so obedient to it ? What darkness is this of R. B. in his ten Queries , who yet to pin the basket at the end of this tenth Query , to add weight to the lightness , and light to the darkness of it , adds one more of his own thoughts and odd conceits , in these words : R. R. I think its past controversie , that no man hath sufficient Gr●ce to his Salvation , till his last breath : For if God add not more for his preservation , all will be lost . Ans. By which hasty speech the man proclaims his being in the darkness , and besides the light that is in him , so loud , and exalts its f●lly , and sets it so on high , that All may see it , save such as are with him in the dark where he is ; for besides the absurdity ( above spoken to ) of his arguing from Gods adding more , and mens not having so much yet as they may have , that therefore they have none at all of that Grace which is sufficient ; he turns from the true terms of his Question , taking the word suffien● here in quite another sense then it hath been taken in along , viz. for the highest d●g●●● only of that Grace of God , when as the question is about the sufficiency of it to save from that sin it shews , such as keep to it , in the very least degree ; and lastly , expresly contradicts the Scripture which speaks of the suffi●●ency of God Grace to keep men that keep to it , in such degrees of it as are attainable in this life , witness that of God to Paul , full fourteen years behind the time wherein he spake it , and many more before the time of his last breath , 2 Cor. 12. My grace is sufficient f●r thee . I conclude then ( all R. Bs. Queries notwithstanding ) that though all are not saved by it , yet all have some of that Light and Grace which is ●aving , and that all are not saved , as some are , it is becaus● they come not into that Light and Grace ●f God which is come int● , and unto them . And now I return to R.B. and I.Ts. Arguments against this , whose 26th f●om Iohn 6.44 . 45. 65. is thus , There 's need of a further drawing , or gift of the Fa●her , that a man may come to Christ , as there would not b● if his own light , without other help , would make known Christ to him ; therefore each mans own light is not sufficient , &c. Rep. Here R. B. layes on hard again upon the Anvil , beside the Iron , in di●proving the sufficiency of mans own light , by which he means mans thoughts , wisd●m● , &c. ( which we count da●kness and foolishness much more then himself does ) when the Question is about the Light of G●d in the heart , of which we say , that , though none can come to Christ without G●d draw him , yet by that G●d d●aws all me● , though a●l m●n c●me not after hi● : And so the rea●on why they perish still , is not because God does not d●aw th●m to life by a light sufficient to lead to it , but because they resist , hang back , and will nto follow it ; therefore sayes God , I drew them with the co●ds of my love , with the bands of a man , yet shall they go into captivity , because they refused to return . The 27. from 1 Iohn 4.1 . 1 Thes. 5.21 . Mat. 4.24 . Believe not every spirit , but try the spirits , &c. Prove all things take heed what ye hear , is thus ; If each persons light within him were a safe guide of it self to God , then no men need to try other mens spirits , nor to prove all things , left he be deceived , sith if he follow his own light he is fallible , &c. But these things are absurd , and contra●y to the warinest Christ prescribes ; therefore the light within each person is not a sufficient guide to God. I shall ( instead of ( his own light ) placing ( the Light of God ) about which only the Dispute is ) syllogize these mens silly Syll●gisme back upon them thus : If the Light of God within each person were not a sufficient and safe guid● to lead him to God , then no man need ( to trouble hims●lf s● much as ) to try other mens spirits , or prove all things , left he be deceived , for that is but labour in vain , sith if he have not a measure of Gods Infallible Light and Spirit in ●im whereby to judge of things , even of that Light of which the Letter sayes , That all thing● that are to be reproved , Eph. 5. are manif●st●d by it , and no truth is infa●liby manifested but by it , which only leads into all truth ; he is not infallib●y guided , nor undoubtedly sure of his hand , let him look , search , prove , and try as much as he will , any more then a man can infallibly di●cern , and distinguish of colours in a dismal dark night , or dark place , where not one beam of the Sun shines so as to discover them : But these things are absurd and contrary to the wariness that Christ prescribeth , who doth not bid men try all things by that Light and Spirit of God which only makes all truth , and all that is knowable of God ; and all things of God manifest in men , Rom. 1.19 . and yet not vouch●afe them one beam of that only sufficient Light to try any thing by ; yea , 't were no less then as meer mockage , as to bid a man read for his life in a dark Dungeon , without sufficient light either of Sun or candle , or take heed to him●elf by that Light that shines in a dark place , 2 Pet. 1.19 . when there 's no true light there at all , and contrary also to all common s●nse and reason ; therefore there is in every man some of that Light of God , which as its heede● , according to the measure of it , is able to guide him infallibly to judge of the matters , truths , wayes , d●ctrines , spirits , he is bid to try , on peril of being deceived to damnation , and a sufficient safe guide to lead him unto God. I wonder what Light , Spirit , Rule , and Tou●hstone all Truth and all Spirits are to be tryed by , if not by that measure of the Spirit of Truth it self , which convinces the world of Sin , Righteousness , and Iudgement , and leads its followers into all Truth . Ob. If any say it can't be that Spirit of God , nor his Light in men the Qua. call to , for that 's one of the things to be tryed , try the spirits whether of God or no , and that which is to be tryed , cannot be the rule of Tryal . Ans. I answer , why not ? Did you Schoolmen never learn that Lesson your selves , which ye teach to others , viz. that Regula , which is alwayes quid Rectum , is m●nsura sui & obliqui : The strait Rule must ever be the Rul● or measure of it self , as well as of that which is crooked and faulty ? Doth not the light manifest it self to be true light , as well as the darkness to be truly darkness ? and does not the Sun as well shews it self to a man to be the Sun , as it shews a dark Cloud or smoak not to be it ? and why may not the inward light , which is truly and inde●d is only it fallible , be truly said to be ( Autopiste ) believed for it self sake , and to be the Rule of Tryal that must try all spirits and sayings but its own , yea , it s own also , as I. O. falsly sayes , nor more nor less , but the self-same of the outward fallible , because ( flexible ) Letter , which flows forth from it ? I say 't is true , we are to try all spirits and things , but as what man knows the things of a man , but the spirit of a man within himself , even so the things of G●d knows no man but the Spirit of God , and that Spirit in which that Sp●rit of God reveals them , 1 Gor. 2 ? What shall we try Light and Da●kness by , but by the Light ? I know our Divines say try all spirits by the Scripture , all l●ghts ( so called , whether they be true or pretended ) by the Letter : But herein they discover their own dancings of the Rounds still in the night of their own thoughts , and in the midst of the mist of darkness , foramuch as ( no otherwise then as when we ask them , what 's the Rule they go by in their Analogical Faith ? they say the Scriptures ; and when we ask them what 's the Rule they go by in their interpreting ●f that Rule of their Faith , i.e. the Scriptures ? they tell us the Analogy of their Faith , even so ) when we ask them what are ye to try the Scriptures by , whether they are of God or no ? they say by the Spirit ; yea , though other things may be accessary , yet the testimony of the Spirit is necessa●y , and only all-sufficient to this pu●pose ; so sayes not only B●ll in his Ca●echize , but also all the Builders of Babel , and Worsh●ppers of Baal , in what form soever ( excepring Popish Priests , who are in a worse extreme , and deny ( as no Rule ) for their own Traditions sake , both Scriptures and Spirit altogether ) but when we ask them , but how shall we try that Spirit of God whether of God or no ? for we are not believe every spirit ( to go round again ) they tell us by the Scriptures ; and thus the poor Clergy are cozened ; and how those they Lord it over should scape d●lusion , and creep out of their Babylonish confusion , I know not , till they come to that ( and some such thing there is , or else there 's no infall●ble knowledge of any thing ) which is of a certainty past all demonst●ation ; s● , that as to a blind man it can't be proved , so to a seeling man in need not , and that is the Light of God in the Con●cience , which ( as heeded ) and according to the measure of it , shews both it se●f and darkness , truth and deceit , good and evil , what God would have each man do for his own particular , and what to decline ( de Iure ) what sins he lives in that he should forgo , what sins he does or does not forgo , de facto ; e.g. lying , cozening , cheating , drunkenness , adultery , murder , doing that ill to o●hers , be would not have done to himself , and such like ; final●y , what manner of man he is , upright or wicked , a t●ue man , or an hypocrite , &c. And all this ( though internally and spiritually , yet ) as truly and inf●llibly , as with his bodily eyes by the Light of the Sun , or but a candle he sees himself , and , with his natural animal understanding , he perceives himself to be a man , and not a Beast . Their 28. from Psal. 139.23 . Search me , O God , and know my heart , try me , and know my thoughts , and see if there be any wicked way in me , and lead me in the way everlasting ; is thus : If David had a Light within him of it self a sufficient and safe guide to God , he should no need G●d to search , know , and try him , he might have led himself ; but 't is otherwise with David , therefore he knew he had not a Light within him . And to this tune also I. O. belying the Qua. represents them as saying , they need not any teaching , having a Light within them , for a much as themselves are Autodidactoi , taught of themselves , Ex. 3. S. 20. Opus non habent vel Doctrina , &c. cum ipsi sunt Autodidactoi , si iis fidem adhibere 〈◊〉 sit . Rep. Oh most absurd and abominable ! how do evil men and seducers war worse and worse , dec●iving , and being deceived ? 'T was darkness , gross enough , to gain-say the being of a sufficient light to guide to God in All m●n ; but this is grosser , yea , no le●s then groapabl● to deny it to be in a●y men ; for if it be in any men , it is surely in the Saints , and if in them , then in Dav●d , whom they own as one , yet behold the M. As. and B. Ds. of our times tell us now , that David himself , who sayes , Thy word have I hid in me , that I might not sin against thee , P●a . 119. which word ●he calls a Lamp to his feet , and a Light to his paths , had not a Light within him , as a sufficient safe guide to lead in the way everlasting , and consequently the Saints , to whom ( nemine obstante ) Paul sayes according to M●ses , the word is nigh thee , in thy heart , the word ●f Faith , which we preach , had none of it in them as well as sinners . But that they may not , insanire sine ratio●e , they give a reason for it , such as 't is , viz. If David had a Light of God within him sufficient , &c. he need not G●d to search , know , try , and lead him , he might have led him●elf , not heeding that all the Saints that are taught by the Light , and in that learn in silence in all subjection , are not Autodidactoi , as these men suppose , but as Paul saith , all Saints are Theodidactoi , learning of Christ , and taught of God , 1 T●es . 41.9 . That the Qua. deny all Teaching but that of God , or men moved by the same Li●ht and Spirit by which God teaches ; yea , I acknowledge freely , that he that teaches himself , and learns not of God , but leans to his own understanding , as the Clergy does , hath but a fool to his Master ; yet so far as David needed God to know and try his heart and thoughts , so far he needed Gods Light within him , there being no way whereby God ( who searches the heart , and tryes the reins , to give to everyman according to his wayes ) both searches , sees , and al●o shews unto man his thoughts , and leads him in the way everlasting , but by his own Spirit , Light , and Word within man , which alone is to that end quick and powerful , sharper then any two edged sword , piercing and dividing asunder between the marrow and reins , soul and joynts , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart , so that not any thing is bid from the sight thereof , but all things are naked and bare before him , with whom we have to do so far , as with that Word and Light which is Gods own Witness within man , whereof the Letter , which is mans witness for God without man testifies , which leads to the Light , while that Light and Truth it points at , leads only to the life and way everlasting , of which sayes the Psalmist , O send out thy Light and Truth , that they may lead , and that they may guide and conduct me unto thy Holy Hill , and to thy Tabernacle . Their 29th from Deut. 4.8 . Psal. 147.19.20 . Rom. 3.1.2 . is thus : What advantage then hath the Ierk , and what pr●fit is there in Circumcision , if ( each Gentile had a Light within him , as a sufficient guide in the things of God , as the Qua. teach ) then they had known Gods Statutes and Iudgements Gods Oracles had been committed to them as well as to the Iews , they had had , as righteous Statutes , and been as wise a Nation as they : But these consequents are false , and contrary to the Texts . Rep. The advantage the Iew , or Circumcision outward , according to the flesh and Letter , not Spirit , over the Gentile or uncircumcision outward , in the flesh and Letter , was much every way , and yet not so much as is inconsistent with each Gentiles having some measure of Gods Light within ; and the profit that the Circumcision had ( which ye repeat your selves , yet are so blind that ye cannot see it ) was in that chiefly ( mark ) to them were committed the Oracles of God , which term ( chiefly ) be tokens , that in some man●er and measure the Oracles of God were committed to the uncircumcision also , which term could not be properly used , if the other had them not at all : If one should say the Angel , or Ecclesiastical Leaders of the La●dicean Church of England , are chiefly first or principally blinded , that would intimate that the people are in some measure blind , though not so much as their Clergy in things of God. So this advantage the Iew had in that , preaching the Covenants , and Prom●ses , and tenders of Gods Grace , was chiefly or first ( for the word is Proton , Rom. 3.2 . ) made unto them ; as Act. 3.46 . to you chiefly or first ( Proton ) God having raised up his Son Iesus , hath sent him to bless y●u , in turning away every one of you from his iniquities . So Act. 13. 'T was meet th● Word of this Salvation sh●uld ( Proton ) first or chiefly be preached to you ; so sayes Christ , Luke 24.47 . That Repentance and Remission of sins should b● preached among a●l Nations , beginning at Ierusalem . Again , they had the Tables of the Covenant , and the outward Letter , and the types and shadows of the good things , and the earthly Canaan , Kingdome , City Ierusalem , Dominion , Dignity and Glory , that were the figures of the true , besides a measure of the inner light that led to the substance , and that the Eternal Life lay in , which the Gentile had some of , together with them ; so the Iew still had the p●eheminence and p●●●rity ( had they had the consideration to have improved it ) but the chi●f price being put into their hands , and they ( like fools ) not using it , nor looking through all this to the end of the things now abolished , nor to the Light and Power of the endless life , but to the Letter and Law only of a carnal Commandment , which they boasted of , and yet brake it , they lost that preheminence , and let the Gentiles out-strip them , and be chief as to the Iustification , and they themselves became chiefly condemned , Rom. 2.26.27 . Shall not the uncircumcision , which is by nature , if it fulfill the Law , judge thee , who by the Letter a●d Circumcision dost transgress the Law ? And verse 8.9.10 . Indignation , wrath , tribulation , anguish , upon every soul of man that worketh ●vil to the Jew first , or chiefly ( Proton ) and also to the Gentile : So 2 Esd●as 1.37 . Though they have not seen me with bodily eyes , yet in spirit they believe that thing that I say ; but if we speak of the true Circumcision which is that of the heart and spirit , not of the Letter , and of the true Iew inwardly , his advantage over the Iew outward , and the outward Gentile , his advantage is indeed over all , for his praise is not of men , but of God himself : And this is that Israel of God , and that Iew ( and not the Synagogue of Satan , that say they are Iews , and are not , but do lye , Rev. 2. ) whose the Salvation and Kingdome , Glory and Covenants , and lively Oracles , and All is , for Salvtion is of the Iews , Luke 18. of Abrahams Seed , which are Christs , and Heirs according to the Gospel promise , heirs of the world , , and blessed with faithful Abraham , as they are of his Faith , and his children , doing his works , who did not kill Christ , as the Clergy does , Iohn 8. Rom. 4. Gal. 3. before the feet of which Iew , the Lord will make the pretended Iew , whether natural Iews , or meer nominal Christians , to fall down and worship , and to know that he hath loved them ; and these are those Iews , that Israel and Iacob ( but that the blind cannot look through the vail into the end of the Type which is abolished ) of whom it s said , Psal. 147.19.20 . He sheweth his Word unto Jacob , his Statutes and his Iudgements unto Israel , he hath not dealt s● with a●y Nation , and as for his Statutes and Iudg●ments they have not known them ; for howbeit it the natural Iew outward knows much that his Le●ter tells him , and by the outward hearing of the ear the outward Statutes and Iudg●ments of God , and also the outward Gentile ( though nominally Christian ) by his light within ( as well as that natural Iew by that and his Letter too ) knows the Iudgements of God , Rom. 1. that those that d● such things as th●y do , are worthy of death ; yet the Iew in spirit , or Christian by nature ( not name only ) having within himself , as Paul and they , 2 Co● . 5. known the terror of the Lord , and felt the weight of his hand for sin , and seen h●w fearful a thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God , and known the power of his wrath ( while his Judgements , which begin at his own house , past upon him in his own Conscience ) which who ( . e. but they ) knows , saith the Psalmist they can perswade others from what they have seen , felt , and handled of Gods Word , and his Iudgements , which are a g●eat deep , yet to the rest that live alienated from the Light , and by them have b●en purged from their filth , and warned from the wickedness of their way , and of simple been made wise , of which precious u●e Gods Iudgements are to all that thus witness and know them ; as Psa. 19. Yea , these are that Nation of Israel ( and not that which is now become a curse and perished ) out of what ever outwa●d Nation or People they are gathered into the one Light and Spirit , of whom it s said , Who is like unto thee , O Is●ael ● a people saved by the Lord , who rideth on the H●avens for thy help ? And in that of these mens quoting , Deuter. 4.8 . What Nation is there so great , that hath Statutes and Iudgements so righteous as all this Law , which is set before them ( in the light ) their keeping and doing of which shall be their wisdome and understanding in the sight ●f those Nations , which though now they count them fools , shall at last see themselves to have been infatuaated , and say of Gods now dispersed and desp●sed Seed of Israel after the Spirit , Surely this great Nation is a wise and understanding people . And as for others , though ( as R. B , I. T. T. D. and ye all say ) God hath not dealth so richly with any as he does with them that receive the riches of his Grace , and they have not known his Iudgements in such a measure as these know them , yet all , as they heed the Light , in that may know them , as in some degree the Heathen , heeding the Light , are said to do , Rom. 1. and degrees never vary the nature of a case , neither follows it , that because some know not so much as some , therefore many neither do nor ( for want of Light ) can know nothing of the Gospel , or Saving Truth of God at all . The 30th from Rom. 7.7 . is thus : The Light within neither did to Paul , nor doth , nor can discover sin , even the sin of Lust , without the Law ; therefore the Light within each person is not a sufficient guide of it self to lead to God , and to warrant mens actions , without the written Word , i. e. Scripture with them . Rep. Why not as well as before the Law was written in an outward Letter at all ? ( if by the Law ye will needs understand nothing but outward Scripture ) for some sure knew lust before Moses wrote the Law. But in very deed ( how deeply soever ye dream in this , as ye do in most things ) this Law , without which the Lust is not well known , is no other then the Light it self within ; for the Letter sayes lust is a sin , but 't is the Light that shews thy lust to filth , envy , or any evil , to be thy sin within thy self ; and that Law , by which the knowledge of sin comes , is that Law and Commandment which Prov. 6.23 , is said to be the Light and the Lamp , even the w●rd that David hid of him , that he might see the way of covetou●ness that was ( e●sewise ) hid in his heart , and so not sin against G●d , by which only the young man , in whom lust is strong , taking heed thereunto , shall come to cleanse his way , which is never clean , while he hangs only on the lips of Letter-stealers , and meer Letter-lauders , who lauding the holy life they li●e not in , are at best but lyars , when they preach the T●uth : But this being elsewhere handled , I shall need to say the less of it here . So having done with these two mens thirty Arguments , a few words more to their ten w●a● Reas●ns against the true Light in all men , and then I have done with them , as to that . Reason 1. Because what each man conceives according to his Light within him , cannot be right and ●rue , for one mans conceits do sometimes contradict anothers : Nor are th● Quak. all of one mind when they follow the Light within them . Rep. This is one of your own cro●ked odd conceits indeed , but far from truth and good consequence , that the Light or Rule it self cannot be true or right , or a safe rule , because mens conceits of things to be , or not be according to it , may be contradictory one to another , and so not both true : 'T is true , contradicto●y conceivings ab●ut one Rule , cann●t be both true ; but he contradicts a●l truth and common reas●n , who conceives the Rule or Light it self to be ere the worse , or ere the less a true Rule or Light , because of that : Two men may have contradict●ry th●ughts and conceits ( whereof one must needs be false ) about a piece of Cloths agreeing , or nor agreeing with the ya●d or measure ; but it follows nor therefore from any thing but these faithless mens false and foolish fancies , that the Ta●d is not a Yard , or no good rule or measure ; and if this were good consequence R. B. and I. T. ( but that they are blind still ) might see it conclude more strongly against their Letters being ( as they plead it to be ) the only true Light or Rul● , then against the Light , since there 's as many silly senses , misty meanings , and contradictory conceits in the minds of them that are Ministers of it , almost as they are Ministers of it : For whereas they tell us of two Qua. contradicting one another , I have told these four men I.O. T.D. R.B. I.T. of contradicting one another many times o're in their books against us , and shall do yet a little more before this book I here write be at an end ; yea , ●n truth ( as I have shewed already before , and shall do more behind ) there 's little else then confusion and contradiction to themselves by our men called Clergy , well nigh in all the Doctrines they have to do with ; besides , this rea●on rendred by them is not at all against the Light of God , but against mens meer conceits , which we are more against then any men whatever , calling men out of their own conceivings , into Gods own Counsel the Light ; So quid hoc ad rem ? Reas. 2. Because that which unvariable and alterable , cannot be a persons Rule , for its the property of a Rule to be invariable , and the same at all times : Rules , Measures , Weights , Dials , Squares , and what other things are made , if they be varied , c●ase be Rules ; Rules should be fixt and certain , but nothing more variable then mens light in them . Rep. Igrant that 's no rule which is variable and alterable , and therefore have above from hence concluded , and do here again , from your own premises , conclude the Letter ( the Rule ye talk for , more then walk by ) not to be that only Rule of Faith and Life , as ye would have it , but Gods Light in the heart , which the Letter came from ; sith as I. O. teaches us in his Epistle ( though he will not learn the same lesson himself , but teaches in his book as much against it as he does for it ) that the Letter in the very Original copies of it , which yet ye count an unalterable Rule , is variable , alterable , flexible , at Criticks wills , by the changing of some one point or Hebrew Letter ( alike in sound or shape ) no less then eight several wayes in that one very word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and some of those as countradictory each to other , as Life to Death ( as is shewed more at large above ) besides all various Lections that are risen ( by I. Os. confession ) from the actual mistakes of them it Transcribers . But the Light ( however men run out into various conceits and imaginations about this or that , which and what is or is not agreeable to it ) is inviolably the same for ever , the Councell and foundation of God , which is Christs Light in the heart , the Rock of ages , stands sure , let the drunkards of Ephraim rock and reel too and fro , or ramble about , and run out whether they will after their own councells and inventions . Reas. The 3 and 4 are both of one unlearned leven and coincident with what 's urg'd above , viz. if the light within men were a safe guide and ride , then 't were unnecessary , unsafe , and foolish , for men to seek councell of others , each might be guided by his light● ; also then the meetings of Quakers to consult about and 〈◊〉 in Commu●●on to Teach each other , or to Communicate , revelations is needless and vain , sith each may guide himself : That 's done in va●● by more which may be done by 〈◊〉 , &c. Rep. Frustra sit per p●ara quod porest fleri ( t●m bene ) per pauciora , that 's done in vain by more , that may be done ( as well ) by lesse . Is true , but what may be done better by more then fewer , is not in vain , and therefore as vis unita fortior is true among Schollars , so in the multitude of councellors there 's in many cases so much the more safety is as true among Christians ; yet it proves not but that there 's also security to assurance enough , wheee every one attends to that of God within himself : Therefore it 's neither unsafe nor foolish ( as ye fool●shly affirm ) but may be both safe and profitable ( for so the Apostles and Elders did of old , Act. 15. Who yet in all were guided by the Spirit ) to meet together in councell , but it s in no wise so absolutely necessary ( as ye make it ) to seek for other Teachings , then that of the Light and Spirit of God within , in order to each mans holy living , much lesse such as is given out in your Synods , where ye teach Gods worship , and fear after your own thoughts and traditions ; yea to such as are turn'd to the Spirits teaching , 't is said ye need not that any man teach you save as the same anointing teacheth you of all things , which is truth & no lye ; and if we do hear men speak that are moved by the Spirit , it s not in vain , it being all one whether that holy Spirit speak in me , or in another to me , we still own no other teaching but that of the anointing , and so the Apostles ( though met in councell , yet ) concluded no other things to be imposed on men , then what seemed good to them and the holy Spirit , which taught them , and impos'd ( not as ye do ) what seems good to your selves , who deny also the guidance of that infallible Spirit to be present in the world at this day . Reas. 5. Then it s in vain to desire and expect revelations and discoveries which they had not before , sith they have the light within of themselves : Therefore when they compose themselves to their quaking fits , that they may have some word of the Lord to speak to people , what 's this but an hypocriticall devise , blasphemous , false and unrighteous , or else needless : Sith they have a light within them sufficient to guide them without other revelation ? Rep. This is nothing but an addition to these mens many lyes ( for which they must know part in the la●● ) and blasphem●us reproach●s of the Qua. Who own no such thing as a light in men that is of themselves , but that only , which is ( though in them ) yet of God : As for composing of themselves to quaking fits , Hypocriticall devices , and pretences of new revelations , and much more such like Riff-raff , as is reckon'd to them in this 5th Reason , the Qua. deny them , who expect no other then true revelations of that old true Gospell in that way of waiting on God in that true old Light , R. B. and I. Ts. Title Page pretends to exalt , but their book ignorantly and impiously depresses , as new light and darknesse , in which true old light ●f God in the heart it was ever revealed from faith to faith to the Just , who lived by faith in that light before the letter was . Reas. 6. By asc●ibing so much to the light within them , Satan hath advantage to draw men to ho●●id acts , sith what ever he can imprint on them as their light , they must receive it without any examination , and obey it . Rep. What silly stuff is this ? As if because Satan may transform himselfe as an Angell of Light in mens hearts to decieve them , if they look not well to the true light of God that shines therein , and receive not the truth told by it in the love thereof : Therefore there 's no true light there shining : As if because there 's much errour and many lyes , that the Father of lyes and Ruler of the darkness seeks to beguile by , and does beguile unstable soules by : Therefore there 's no truth to be beguiled from , and to be s●aid upon : Scilicet , sic aiunt , praedic●nt , clamitant , non probant . Reas. 7. Then he that 's counted unlearned and foolish , if he follow his own light , doth as well as he that 's never so wise and learned , whereas Solomon tells , Eccl. 2.13 , 14. That wisdome excells folly as far as light excells darkness . Rep. Why not ? He that 's counted unlearn'd and foolish by the wise men of this world , who follow the foolishnesse of their own fleshly fancies , whose wisdom is foolishness with God , if he follow the light of God , doth not only as well , but a thousand-sold better then such wise and learned as abovesaid , and the wisdome of these that are fools with you , excelleth your seeming wisdome , in which ye are acting real folly , as far as light excelleth darkness ; by all which wisdome of your own ye cannot discern so much as your own Scipture , which tells you of a way which is called the way of holiness , in which the unclean cannot walk , though never so worldly wise , yet the way-faring man that walks in it , though a fool , shall not erre therein , Isa. 35.8 . Reas. 8. Then the Phylosophers Light was sufficient to guide them , for surely they had as much Light without the Scripture as any , and did improve it to the utmost ; and the Jewish Rabbins , besides the natural light in them , did by the study of the Law , and Traditions of Elders , endeavour to attain the knowledge of God , to whom yet Christ was foolishness ; and Paul useth this expr●bation , Where 's the wise ? where the Disputer of this world ? Rep. The Phylosophers , and the Iewish Rabbins , whereof the one had the Light within ( which ye call natural , but is indeed Gods Law , which is spiritual ) and not the Scripture without , and the other both that Light within , which is the Law , and the Letter without also , did neither of them improve it to the utmost ( as ye falsly assert ) nor follow that Light , but one their own thoughts , inventions , and imaginations only of things ( as ye do yours ) the other their own senses , meanings , and traditionary interpretations of the Letter , and so ran both out mostly into a Phylosophy and Science ( falsly so called ) and into meer v●in deceit , as your selves do , who are the same Generation of Disputers of this world , whose wisdome God is making foolish , and by that foolishness of preaching ( as ye count that of the Qua. ) saving such as believe in that Light they call to : If the Iewish Rabbins , who were as well skill'd in Scripture as your selves , did get so little saving knowledge of God by their study of the Law or Letter , and Tradition of Elders , because not looking to the Law or Light in the heart , which the Letter sends to , ye may ●ee the reason why ye are so succesless in your seeking God , as to know so little of him as ye do , who are yet seeking him in no other way then they , Ioh. 5.39 . And as much as ye despise the Heathen Phylosophers as Ethnicks , some even of them that did according to the Law or Light they had , wil as much judge many of you nominal Christians ( as they did the Iews ) who with the Iews make boast of the Letter of the Law , yet through breaking thereof dishonor God , and cause the name Christian to be a stink among the Gentiles . Reas. 9. If every mans Light within him were a safe guide to him in Religion and Morality , then do all Law-makers ill , &c. and judges ill , in passing sentence of condemnation on men , then a● m●●●ill to reprove , &c. Parents , Tutors , Schoolmasters , ill to teach men otherwise , then is all Government and Magistracy unprofitabl● , Rulers are not Ministers of God to us for good , but only to molest and oppress us ; then they that set their children to School do foolishly , Vniversities and Schools of Arts to breed up in liberature and good manners are vain , and all these are to be abolished , which were the way to lay all waste , &c. to level people in manners and knowledge , &c. to reduce to Barbarism , to make the Nation a Wilderness ; in fine , to drive Gods Spirit from us , and introduce unclean spirits to repossess our Land , to expel all that is excellent , and may better us , and to fill the Nation with a Generation of fools , in whom God hath no pleasure , Eccl. 5.4 . and by consequence to condemn all the man of worth in the world , since the C●●ation , of folly and blindness . Rep. The former part of this Rantipole Reason is refell'd before , in former parts of this book of mine , where the very contrary rather is abundantly shewed , viz. that 't were ill in Judges , Rulers , Magistrates , Parents ( whose correction of ill doers , for whom the Law only is , 1 Tim. 1.9 . we own ) to reprove , condemn , and punish any for doing contrary to the pu●e Religion , and undefiled before God ( which is morality or good manners , and to keep a mans self unspotted of the ill manners , and pollutions of the world ) if the persons so reproved , condemned , punisht and corrected , had not a Light in them sufficient to teach them that true Religion , for all just condemnation must arise from mans having Light , & not loving to live by it , and the Light only is the worlds condemnation , Ioh. 3.19 . And as for the last clauses about Tutors and Schoolmasters , Vniversities , and Schools of Arts , to breed up in literature and good manners , as they pretend to do , they had more need then any other places and people in this Nation to be taught them●elves what true Religion and good manners are ; yea , the very principles thereof , if that Light in every mans conscience that teaches them to live honestly , righteously , and soberly ( as in truth it is ) and to keep a mans self unspotted of the world , be that pure Religion ●hat's undefiled before God ( as the Scripture sayes it is ) and not that of those who are pure and religious in their own eyes , and yet never mean to be washed from their filthiness : I have spoken much above , how vain they are of all places throughout this Nation , and add thus in brief , that ( unless they come to be better reformed then ever they have been since I knew them ) they are at this day ( not for want of a Light within , but of attending to that Light that is in their hearts that teaches them better ) so full of va●ity , prid● , luxury , filth , enmity , hatred , malice against truth , insolent scoffing at good men , abusive carriages toward the Qua. in their Meetings , 〈…〉 , ●eastliness , rudeness , ignoranc● , violence ( as that of the Horse and Mule , whose mouths , lest they do mischief , must be held in with bit and bridle ( as the Schollars have not been of late so much as they should be , by either May●rs or ViceChanc●llors without in our two Vniversities , nor by the Light in themselves ) which ( how ere they bear the names of Nurseri●s of Religion , and have some seeming shews thereof ) shews all their Religion to be in vain , Iam. 1.26 . That the abode of them in the Nations in this deformed state wherein they stand , as Nurseries of naughtiness , more then honesty , is rather ( as it hitherto hath been ) a way to lay wast all common civility , and corrupt all good manners , and bring men to barbarism , and make the Nation a Wilde●●●ss , yea , an Acheldama , or field of blood , if people every where should be as bloody as the Schollars have been at Oxford and Camb●idge against the Saints ( witness what 's above declared , and the late pranks at Cambridge since that was written ) and in sine , to drive away the Spirit of God f●om among us , introduce unclean spirits to repossess us , and our Lord , to expel all that is , and all them also that are excellent , and may better us ( as the Qua. do , who seek to bring all men to innocency and honesty , a little of which shall 〈◊〉 - weigh all Scholastical sibtilis , and 〈◊〉 Piety , in the day that are coming on ) and in a word , to fill the Nation still ( which hath been too full of such for many Ages and Generations upwards ) with that Generation of Locusts and Caterpillars , that have eat up every green thing in it , and that whole FFFraternity of Fools , in whom God hath no pleasure , who are more ready to offer their ( Cains ) Sacrifices . then to hear and obey what God himself saith in them , Eccles. 5.4 . And lastly , to condemn all the sincere hearted Saints , and honest hearts since the Creation , which are men of such worth in the world , that ( what ere the worthless wise men thereof say falsly to the contrary ) the world is not worthy of them , of that fully and blindness , which is found more among the foresaid FFFraternity , then among any other whomsoever : So that I will not say ( according as they may be ordered ) how useful such Tutors and Vniversities may be , but as so disorderly as they have been , they may not only to every sober eye seem altogether vain and worthless , but worse then naught it self , and Cages of every unclean and hateful bird ; neither have the many frovolous chaffy formalities that Lawyers literature hath led out into , proved more destructive to the substance , equity , and very end of the Law , which at first was good , then that fleshly wisdome , and loose kind of literature that is learned at Universities , that hath led men out into fulness of all filthiness , open profaness , infinite fopperies , under a 〈◊〉 of Piety , or form of godliness , been destructive hitherto to the very Practice and Power of it , and to the purity of Religion , and the Gospel : And though iniquity abounds most openly among ●uch as are under their Tuition , yet 't were better then it mostly hath been , if Teachers and Tutors of all ●orts , whom ye so ta●k for , were not of those Ts. by whom Vniversiti●s are debaunched , and Truth turned upside , both there and in all Countr●es , as well as by Tyth●-monge●s and Turn-c●ats . Reas. 10. If every man have a Light within him sufficient to guide him , then ( quoth I. T. who ●s back 〈◊〉 by R. B. ) I suppose th●y will grant I have such a light within me ; and if every man is to follow this light , then I am to follow my light within me : Now my light within me shews me , that the Qua. Opinion about the light in them is an errour , that they pervert Souls , by bidding men follow it , &c. And this is not only my light , but the light of millions besides me , yea , I think all sober men have found their own darkness and ignorance , and groaned under it , bewailing it to God , and applying themselves to the use of such means as might bring light into their Souls . I conclude , that this Opinion of the Quakers , which I have refuted , is the most s●ttish Opinion that ever was hatched , instilled into them by the Prince of darkness , not by the Spirit of G●d , and tends to the dissolution both of Religio●s Discipline , and Civil Government ; yet they say , or rather brawl somewhat for their Opinion . Rep. I know well enough that thy own light I.T. and thine own R. B. ( which is da●kne●s ) doth dictate to you , that the Qua. testimony to the Light of God in men , is an errour , and a perverting of Souls , because it converts so many to God , and turns them aside from attending any more to them that teach for hire : But we say not , what ere ye ●uppo●e , that ye are at all to follow that : But what we also testifie to , and bid you follow , is the Light of God. Rep. The 〈◊〉 and thou R. B. either have , or have had ( if not now lost it ) such a Light within you from God , as is a sufficient safe guide to God , and that ( though its evident ye have not done it ) you should have followed , and if you had , you should have known us ( as now you do not ) it would have shewed you that the Qua. Doctrine of the Light within is no errour , and that they do not pervert , but convert souls to God , by bidding men follow it ; and if ye have found by experience your own darkness and ignorance ( as ye say all sober men have , among which you surely count your selves ) bewail that your darkness unto God , and yet apply your selves to the use of such means as may bring the Light to shine out into your souls , which is to come more soberly then ever yet to the Light within you , which shews you your own darkness , without terming it ( disparingly ) errour , delusion , conceit , and ( as I.O. does jeeringly ) figment , the Infallible Doctor , I know not what God , &c. the Imagined Christ of the Qua. some spiritual every thing , truly nothing , &c. lest at last indeed ( not walking in it while you have it ) your light go out in obscure da●kness , lest it be totally taken from you , and you cast into the utter darkness , never to see the Light of God ( in whose Light the Qua. see light ) any more ; the best light in you then being but merae tenebrae & caecitas , blindness and darkness it self : But if it be so that the best Light in all , or any of you four , I have mostly more or less had to do with throughout this book , in answer to your selves , and all men that are of your dark minds about the Light , be already become darkness : Oh how great is that darkness ! the Gospel is then hid indeed to them that are lost , though I wish you well , yet I cannot help it any more then you ; yet just it is upon you for your flying out in such fiery twittle twattles , and fierce fightings against his Light , and God is righteous in taking vengeance , yet I will hope better things of you , till I see the worst , and desire that ye may yet know the things that make for your peace , before they be hid for ever from your eyes : Howbeit , for the truths sake , as well as in love to your souls , I shall not spare the same sharpness towards you , as you are found in against the Light and it . I conclude ( against you in your own kind ) that this Opinion of yours , and m●st Divines , concerning Christs not enlightning all men in any wise with saving Light , in contradiction to that undeniable truth in this point the Qua. testifie to , is the most sottish Opinion that ever was hatched , instilled into you and others by the Prince of darkness , not by the Spirit of God , and tends to the dissolution both of all Religion ( for what Religion can all men be call'd to , if all men be not by Christ enlightned to do what he would have them ) and all civil Government also , yet the blind Guides of the blind , whom they draw with them into the ditch , who will say something against every thing , rather then own truth as it is in Iesus , do say , or rather brawl somewhat for that their Opinion , which is sufficiently already above refuted . CHAP. VI. HAving done with the Doctrine concerning the universality of the true Lights being in some measure in all men , which leads such as are led by it unto life , and with the rest , which the Priests generally oppose the Qua. in , as at first propounded . I shall now fall upon some brief Animadversion of their piteous Arguments against it , and poor Answers to our plain Arguments for it , wherewith the Priests resist and withstand the Truth , as it s testified to by the Qua. -so called , as to that point of perfection , as to the possibility of Purgation , and real Remission of sin , and full freedome from any more Commission of it , whether actually or assentatively in this life . As for R. B. and I. T. As after a long unquiet quarrel with the Qua. ( who call men to no other at all ) about the Light and Spirit of Christ , as such foolish fires as will lead men into nothing but Bogs and Praecipices , page 84. and much more of that sort , themselves fall a calling and commending all men to the same , in many good words of exhortation , specially in the last Sermon of their book , which consists of Exhortations to the Light , Doctrine or Teaching of Christ within ( excepting here and there ( as the manner of most Parish Ministers is ) a Perenthesis or interpositition of now and then some dirty dashes and filthy flerts against it , to sence men off from ever coming too neer it , lest it make them wiser then their Teachers and Leaders , and so lead and take them off from taking much more heed to the wind of their whiffling words and tangling talk of Truth for Tith ) So they are principled against the foresaid perfections atainbleness in this life , as is evident in other of Baxter's , and T s his works : Yet in this Book of theirs that I have at present to do with I mind not at present where they contradict it , but are found in sundry expressions much rather confirming and preaching it unawares , and ministring Mediums in proof of it E.G. p. 12. where they tell us thus : R.B. J.T. Christ leads alwayes in the right way , so that whosoever follows him . Rep. And some do surely , these men are not so ignorant sure as to deny that . R.B. J.T. Shall be directed aright in his way , be guided into the way of peace . Rep. That must needs be out of all sin , for every sin or transgression is the wrong way , the way of wickedness , and there 's no peace saith God unto the wicked . And p. 13. where they tell us thus : R.B. J.T. Christs words have such precepts and revelations as make a man Spirituall , Heavenly , Wise , like unto God. Rep. Which if any sinner be and be not rather Carnall , Earthly , Foolish unlike God , and lke the Devill , then I am yet to seek ( and if these sinners and pleaders for mens necessity of sinning while they live , and yet call themselves Saints , can tell me otherwise , let them tell me ) what a Saint , and what a sinner is and p. 1.4 . Where they tell us thus . R.B. I.T. All that Christ spake . Rep. Whose Speeches were and are successefull to accomplish their end among some at least assuredly , or else let these men speak it out , if they dare , that Christ never obtains his end in speaking to any at all to whom he speakes . R.B. I.T. It was to ease the burthen . Rep. And such the least in is , where ere it is , whether it be felt or no. R.B. I.T. to direct to God. Rep. Whom no sinner in his sins can come to . R.B. I.T. to reform the evils in Gods worship . Rep. Whom no evill doer or sinner in his sins can worship any more accceptably then Cain whose sacrifice was shut out while his sin lay at the door , or then David himself , whose prayer would not be heard , if he regarded iniquity in his heart , and every one does so more or lesse , while , in the least , he commits it , or else surely he would not commit it , no man doing that he hath no regard at all unto , but he who remaines yet under the Devills power taken captive by him at his will , having not yet attained to that liberty wherewith Christ ( euen here ) makes many free , and ( even here ) is by him attainable , if men with Paul , who throw the warfare at last attain'd it , be sincere in the same way of pressing after it . R. B. I.T. To take men off from Covetousness , Hypocrisie , and such evills as are Pernic●●us . Rep. And if the least motion to sin ( if assented to , not else ) be any otherwise then so , and not in some measure pernicious ( though some great ones may be more greatly pernicious then other some ) let that of God in the conscience of these men judge , when Paul sayes the motions of sins which warr'd in his members ( while he was yet under the Law , and not in the Liberty of Christ , and but in the Combate , and short of the Conquest ) brought forth fruit in him unto death : and Iames c. 1. That if lust , be but perrmitted to conceive ( as it does in such a degree as any one is led away after it ) it bringeth forth sin , and sin when it s finished , or brought forth . e. into its being ( as it is when lust is but assented to and the mind genders to gether with it ) it bringeth forth death . R.B. J.T. With what ever else might bring nigh to God. Rep. Whom all sin , even the least in some mea●ure , though ( some more then some ) separates the soul from . R.B. J.T. And Alienate men from this present evil world . Rep. Which every man is nigh to more or lesse till he be totally taken off and alienated utterly from the corruptions that are in it through lust . R.B. J.T. And accordingly so were and are the effects , regeneration or new birth ; Mortification of the deeds of the Body ; the Salvation of Man Rep. And if these were and are ( as ye say they were and are ) not only the ends , but also the effects of what Christ spake or speakes , then by such as continue to heare his voice and follow him , and not such strangers to him as ye are ( and so some did , and now do , yea ever all his own sh●●p ) all these things in time , even here , both were and are attainable and attained also , that ye speak which are ipsissima , the very things we plead against you ; for in the point of perfect freedom from sin wherein ye oppose us , viz. Mortification of the deeds of the body , which is never effected till every sin be destroyed or subdued , so as not to be so much as assented to , much lesse acted , the very least being a deed or member of the body of it , and mortification ( effected ) no lesse , but somewhat more , if more can be , then a common killing in our common English acceptation of it , even a mangling the dead body of it all to pieces : Regeneration , which however taken by our dimm Divines for the first act of conversion onely , or beginning to face about from sin towards God , is a real new birh , or being begotten back into that divine nature , which man in sin is degeneraled from , and not onely so , but also ( as taken in its right latitude and consummation , not initiation only , for the thing or end effected ( & so ye speak ) and not prosecuted onely , the growth up in that image of Christs divine nature , in whom was no sin , to the very measure of the fulness of his stature Eph. 4. and salvation of man , which is not in , but from the sin first , before ever there be any right rejoycing in God , or any true salvation from the sorrows that are entail'd to it , by him who came to save his people from their sins : Who in this sense mainly is sent forth as a light to enlighten us , and raised up as an horn of salvation in us his people , that we being delivered from all our Enemies ( among which sin , even in our selves is the chiefest ) and from the hands of all that hate us ( as all sinners do such as preach to them that unpleasing doctrine of perfect purging from the sins they love ) might serve him without fear in holinesse and righteousnesse all the dayes of our life . For as much therefore as in this book of R.B. and T.D. I find them ( at present ) uttering so much as that above and perhaps more ( but that I hasten ) that makes for it , and yield us Arguments out of that their own Armory in proof of that perfect freedom from sin here which we plead for , but nothing directly against it , though they are against it , I shall therefore ( having made use of that little of theirs above that is very much to our purpose against them ) quit these 2. R.B. and I.T. And addresse more directly to I.O. and T. D's . Deliveries of themselves , as against that Doctrine . And as for I.O. I have so much the lesse to say to him by how much 't is but little that he meddles in that matter throughout that whole book of his I have herein had to do with , but for as much as that little in bulk is as stark naught as it 's nothing to his purpose he must excuse me if , for truths sake , I be as blunt with him , as he is keen and bloody against the Teachers of it , and as plain in opening his contradiction to him , as 't is plain that he contradicts himselfe in what he sayes against it in the very sight and open view of all men . I confess he dilates not so largely against it , as T.D. does ; but barely and nakedly nibbles about the business : Yet he puts forth such a Paw as wherby we may guesse how rudely & unreasonably Rampant he would be in his repulses of us in that point , if we that hold it were not as much out of his reach , as 't is out of the reach of the best wisdome he hath to render one solid Reason at all against it . One thing that I.O. sayes , whereby we may clearly conclude him to be one who as cloudily concludes there 's no attainment to a perfect purging from sin in this Life , is this viz. Having in proof of its perfection from its efficacy to effect its own end spoken above of the immediate end of the Scripture to be * direction in our knowledge of God , and that obedience that is due to him , that doing his will ( as none when he sins does ) we may attain salvation ( which is from sin sure , or from nothing ) and the enjoyment of himselfe and told us that the perfection of all discipline consists in its efficacy to effect its own end , so that that onely is to be held perfect which is sufficient to effect its end , and that imperfect which is not of force to effect it , and how in this very respect the Scripture is a most perfect rule , as it accomplishes its foresaid end : and telling us also that the use of the Scripture by which this end is effected , is only in this present world , sith the Scripture ceases , as to all its uses ends and purposes , in that to come , and consequently must either effect that its end , even our perfect salvation from sin here , or not at all , & so prove it selfe to be contrary to what I.O. sayes of it , viz. no perfect Rule , he tells us withall to the utter contradiction of his assertion as to the Scridtures perfection ( being it semes principled against the Qua. as to the point of perfecting holyness so as to cleansing from all sin , and left hee run upon that dangerous rock of runing out of all lust while he lives here ) that its a most false thing to affirm that the holy Scripture doth or can , while we are in this world , obtain all its own end , in respect of us , which end he had said before is our obeying God , and doing his will ( which is not to sin , 1 Iohn 2.1 . ) and our salvation , which is from sin : Thus Incidit in Scyllam , &c. The man of sin to avoid one extream , which he is extreamly against , viz. being ruined against the rock of perfection , he runs down extreamly into another , viz. the gulf of self contradiction and confusion . Verbum sat sapienti , I need do no more to the opening of this round to wisemen , then to set it down before them thus ( for this is the sum of I. Os. sayings ) nothing is perfect , but what effects its end , the end of the scripture is making men perfect , this end the Scripture cannot effect in this Life , for here 's no perfection , nor can the scripture effect this end in the life to come , for there it ceases to work , and effects nothing at all ; yet the Scripture , the perfection of which can consist in no other thing then its effecting its end , which end it never effects , is for a●l that most perfect . What more I.O. sayes in short , is this , That the * Fanaticks ( so he is pleas'd still to stile the Qua. a seed among whom some at least are the most sincere Saints that are at this day upon the earth ) are not perfect , t●ei●lyes , deceits , bainour wickednesses , and hypocrisies , do testifie to us ; but in very deed , punishments and imprisonments ought to be inflicted upon them that impudently glory , that they are free from all these , and other sins , even the least . Rep. I.O. it seems , and the rest of his Gang of Ghostly Fathers , and godly Gameliels , are sentenced already by himself , as worthy to be persecuted in such wise ( as the Qua. have been at Oxford by his means ) and punisht , and imprisoned , as Impudent Boasters , if ever they shall pretend ( whilst here on earth ) to be free from lying , and fraud , and wickedness , and hypocrisie , and other sins ( specially if from the least , or from all uncleanness of flesh and spirit , all ungodliness and worldly lusts , which yet they 'l tell men sometimes ( in a sound of stoln words ) from those Texts of Paul , 2 Cor. 7.1 . 8 Tit. 11.12 . 13. they must cleanse themselves from , deny , and have nothing to do with in this present world , because else there 's no purging in the world to come : So that we see what fruits we are to expect from that Fraternity of false Prophets , and what little likelihood of peoples being much profited by these stealers and sellers of the Apostles good words , when they believe it even impossible that the things they impose in the Name of God , themselves , or any people here , where they say it must be done if ever should be impowred to perform . 2. I query , Whether if Paul had come to Oxford in the time of I.Os. Vice-Chancellorship there , and made the same modest confession to the praise of God ( no other then which the best of the Qua. ever made ) which he made , that he was once ( in his own conceit ) alive without the Law ( or till he and the Law , i. e. the Light , came to face each other ) but when that came , then he saw sin was alive in him , and he dead , and that he was ( then while beginning to war with it ) sold under it , and captivated by it , and wretched by reason of it , Rom. 7. but that now ( when he wrote this ) the Law of the Spirit of Life ( or Light in his mind ) which was by Christ , had made him free from th●t Law of sin and dea●h ( which warr'd in his members , and oft enslav'd him ) I say , when Paul made this , and many other modest acknowledgements of Gods Grace and Power towards him , in delivering him , and how now he walkt not after the flesh , but the Spirit , and how holily , and justly , and unblameably he and other Apostles behaved themselves , 1 Thes. 2.1 . 2. 3. &c. and should have said ( as to the same effect he did ) that they were no lyars , nor deceivers , nor wicked ones , nor hypocrites , and 2 Cor. 13.8 . could do nothing against the truth ( as every sin is ) but for the truth , and such like ; Whether I.O. would have punisht him as an Impudent Boaster , yea or no , and have put him in B●cardo , where besides whippings , and other punishments and abu●es , some of the Qua. have been put ? if yea , see what kind of provision the poor Flock of Christ must expect from out of the silken Snapsacks of these University Shepherds and Overseers , if they had the over-sight of all Corrective , as much as they have it Directive over Magistrates and all : And what a Generation of Godly Ministers ( as they have been call'd ) have grown up under pretence of Reformation of late , even in old England , which has been so long renewing [ as well as in New-England , which is now growing old again , where they punish the same seed to death● where however they idolize Christs holy Apostles now they are dead , would no less then persecute them were they now alive ; if nay , I would know Quo Iure ? some Reason , if that these Rabbies can render a right one , why the Saints that walk and live in , and after the same holy Spirit now , that leads into all truth , and no transgression , and witness the same freedome from the Law of sin thereby , should for making the same confession to the glory of Gods Grace be so ill used ( as I.O. would have them ) as Impudent Boasters , any more then them of old ? What ever the Qua. do and are , who by the Grace of God being what they are , glory in nothing of their own , knowing they have nothing but what they have received . I shall here clear many Clergy men more then any men ( unless some Lawyers be as clear as them ) from that so punishable crime of glorying and boasting in being free from the least sin , or from those fore-named grosser evils either ; for as if they should be found glorying in freéd●me from either , they would be found lyars one way more then now they are , so in truth both those kinds of wicked , hypocritical , deceitful lyars , I mean in plain terms , many Priests , and some Lawyers , who can neither of them live on poor mens labours [ as many of them do in all lands , any longer then while men lye dead in their trespasses and sins , are [ for ought I find ] so far from glorying in their immunity from those and all other iniquities , that like those old Christian Enemies to the Cross of Christ , Phil. 3.18 . 19. whose end is destruction , whose God is their belly , who mind earthly things , and whose glory is in their shame , they glory yet in that immunity and freedome they can get from the powers that are intoxicated with the wine of the wrath of their fornications , to commit all evil , and so continue in those lyes , deceits , frauds , cheats , hypocrisies , bloody persecutions , spoilings of mens goods , devouring Widows houses for Tythes , and for a pretence making long prayers , and much more wickedness and prophaneness , which , from these Law and Gospel spoilers , is long since gone forth into all lands . By that little Cloud then which appears dropping from I.Os. pen , though no bigger then a mans hand , we can see his complexion , and what muddy stuff was working , what bloody storms of persecution were brewing in I.Os. mind against that more tender , and true Tenet of perfect purging from sin in this life , and the innocent Asserters of it ; and so I shall take him , till he either takes in again that terrible tale of his , or at least till he tells the world , that it repents him that ere he told it for a joynt Antagonist to the Qu● . together with T.D. in that point . Nevertheless T.D. being the only man that mannages that matter , more at large , on behalf of himself and many others , I shall without more ado let this short Return stand as to I.Os. brief opposition of us in this point of perfection , and the rather , sith I believe it will be long enough ere it return from him to us again with any solid or satisfactory answer , and address my self to deal more down-rightly , yet no otherwise then uprightly neither with T.Ds. writing , with whom I , together with R. H. G. W. and A.P. also once have had to do about it by word of mouth . The second Quest. between him and the Qua. as himself relates both it , and what little he thought fit , which is scarce one word to his ten , in such manner also as might best serve his turn , to set down of our Discourse with him about it , 1 Pamp. was this ; Whether in this life the Saints attain to a state of perfection , or freedome from sin ? Which we ( as to the possibility thereof , viz. that they may , and also as to the necessity that they must be purged from sin in this life , or no where , there being no Purgatory in the world to come ) holding in the affirmative , T.D. brings in himself , replying thus ; T.D. Your Doctrine of perfection is against the tenor of the Scripture , let us hear what you can say for the proof of it : And to R. H. urging 1 Ioh. 3.9 . Whosoever is born of God , doth not commit sin . T.D. replyes thus , viz. T.D. That cannot be meant of freedome from sin , but either there is an Emphasis in the word ( sin ) intending under that general ●e●m one kind or sort of sin , which is spoken of , 1 John 5.16 . There is a sin unto death : Or if not in the Substantive , on the Verb Poiei , which notes to make a trade of business of sin , as 't is explain'd , ver . 8. where he uses the same Verb , for the Devil sinneth from the beginning : He hath never ceased to sin since he began , thus indeed the Saints sin not , but a course of sin is broken off , and there is not such a free trade between the Soul and sin , as in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is given for one character , that cannot cease to sin , 2 Pet. 2.14 . Rep. 1. Here thou art in thy old wonted way of scruing the Scripture besides the proper import , and ordinary literal sense of the words , and true mind of the Spirit in them , into thy own perverse mind and meaning , why cannot that be meant of freedome from sin , but that men who are not fully willing to be freed from it , and are in love with it , and being loath to leave it , are loath to see it ? It s more hard not to see , then it is to see that it is meant of freedome from sin : What should , or can it be meant of else ? Are not freed me from sin , and not committing of sin , made synominous as committing sin , and not being freed from it , are made by Christ himself opposites to each other , Ioh. 8.32 . 33. 34. 35. 36. The Iews thought they had the fullest freedome that men could have in this world , because they were the visible Church , Abrahams Seed , and such like externals as they then trusted in , as ye now do , though not yet freed from that thing call'd sinning , to serve the Lord alone , whose service the very Common-Prayer-Book it self was wont to call perfect freedome : But Christ learns them another Lesson , viz. that they had none of that true Gospel freedome that the saving knowledge of the truth gives , and which he makes such as continue in his words , and so are his Disciples indeed , and not in word only , as ye are , free withall , which is a full freedome in deed and truth , and not half a one , or by the halves , such as that is ye talk of , who upon the account of some private Patent , alias particular personal Election thereto from everlasting , prattle to your selves of freedome from guilt , while ye remain in your filth , and of a general Iustification an● pardon for all sins past , present , and to come in this world , expecting your purging or Iustification , as to Sanctification from sin and ●ncle●●ness , not in this world , but that to come : But verily , verily , I say unto you ( quoth he ) he that committeth sin , is yet the servant of sin , and must know , for all his boasting , he has not long to abide in the House and Church of God , wherein Ishmael-like he scoffs at the right Heir Isaac , as if himself alone , who is but a Bastard , born of fornication , should inherit all , and will prove an out-cast himself at last before the Son , who is born of God , and free indeed , and the only true Heir of all things ; full freedome from sin , and committing of it , are oppos'd to each other by Christ ; therefore freedome from it , and not committing it , are the same . To wind out of this , T.D. would seem to say somewhat , but of two things he can't tell which , but one of the two must be it , rather then the Truth : Either there is ( quoth he ) an Emphasis in the word sin , intending under that general term one kind of sin , viz. sin unto death ; or if not in the Substantive , on the Verb Poiei , which notes to make a trade , or business of sin , as the Devil does , who sinneth from the beginning , and never ceased from sin since he began : Thus indeed the Saints sin not , &c. Rep. As to they Emphases , they are the foolish empty conceits of thy own , and other mens brains , there 's no such Emphasis either in the Substantive or Verb , as ye all prate , whereby the Spirit should be understood as speaking otherwise then he truly means , or meaning otherwise then he plainly sayes , whose words are plain to the honest heart , though not to Idol Shepherd , who by the Sword of the Lord hath his right eye utterly darkned , because he hath darkned the Lords Counsel by his own words without knowledge : And if the eyes of the Seers were not shut up from seeing the very Letter they prate about , as well the mysteries of the Spirit , which the animal man can never know by all his searchings ( they being revealed only by the Spirit ) they might see that the Text it self makes no difference between sinning , and committing sin , and that the one is no more Emphatical then the other : And if T.D. who in the same page 9. where he mentions the words , were not so busie in his mind about the meaning , and did not make such a warbling noyse ( as shallow waters ever do more then those that are deepest ) with harping at this , that , and t' other silly sense , he might in coolness have considered , that in the same ninth verse , as well as the eigth , and others about it , the Spirit makes no difference between Amartian Poiein , and Amortanein , to commit sin , and to sin , but uses them promiscuously . Ouk Amartanei , every one that abides in him sinneth not . So ver . 8. He that commits sin is of the Devil , for the Devil Amartanei sinneth from the beginning : And because T.D. seems to put an Emphasis upon the word [ sinneth ] as well as [ committeth sin ] making the word [ sinneth ] ( as here used ) to amount to somewhat more then an ordinary sort of sinning , as here it intends some high or desperate degree of sin , even that which 1 Ioh. 5.16 . is call'd Kat ' Exoken , a sin unto death without remedy , or forgiveness for ever , because never to be repented of , as in opposition to all other sins that men do commit , which ( when this alone , being ever joy●'d with impenitency , is impardonable ) are all , upon that true repentance they are yet in possibility of , who commit them , pard●nable , or possible to be forgiven ; for this is T. Ds. emphasis on the Substantive [ Sin ] ( for I shall not wrong him so much as to take him meaning , as the Papists do , who put such difference between peccatum veniale , and mortale ; as if some sins only without repentance were mortal , or to death , and some venial , or not to death , though not repented of at all , your Church of England opposing them in this , and holding every sin , yea , the least ( unrepented of ) unto death , though T. D. would have suspected me to be a Iesuite for a less matter ) This concludes him that is born of God to be ( even qua sic , as born of God ) as easily liable to , and excludes him no more then it does the very wicked themselves , from the committing of any sin , that the wickedest can commit ( except that ye call the sin against the Holy Ghost it self ) which is so gross an absurdity , that he can be no spiritually wise man that does not feel him to be spiritually infatuated that so imagines : For still though the Devil sinneth , and he that is of the Devil doth nothing else ( but Nicodemus , though a Master in Israel can't read this Birth of God ( which is Anothen , from above of water and the Spirit , John 1.12 John 3. which blows where it lists , and the Priests hear an outward sound thereof , but know not whence it comes , nor whether it goes , nor how he is that is born of the Spirit ) as plain as 't is in the Text , which they read more then that truth tells of ) yet , as he that sinneth is of the Devil , and he that is of the Devil sinneth altogether , so he that sinneth not , but doth righteousness only , is of God ; and he that is born of God , and the Spirit , which is Spirit , and not flesh , sinneth not at all , but overcometh the world , and keepeth himself , that the wicked one so much as toucheth him not , 1 John 5.18 . neither can he sin , even eatenus , because born of God , whose own Seed , or incorruptible word , 1 Pet. 1.23 . which condemns all , and consents to no sin , remaineth in him . Yet lest it hold not this way , T.D. puts another string to his Devils Bow , and shoots out another sense , as emphatically as he can , with all his might , by which notwithstanding ( as he did in the other three Questions above spoken to ) he hath utterly lost the Game , and given the whole Cause , and this Question contended for , so clearly ( if there should be no more shooting about it ) that by all his scrambling shifts , whereby he scrabbles and scraffies to gather it up again , he will , never recover of the wound that he hath unawares given to himself ; for mark how his own emphasis on the Verb Poiei undoes him : It notes ( quoth he ) to make a trade or business of sin as the Devil does , who never ceased to sin : Thus indeed the Saints sin not , but a course of sin is broken off , and there is not such a free trade between the Soul and sin , as in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is given for one Character that cannot cease from sin , 2 Pet. 2.18 . Rep. To say nothing here , how that Parish Priests do make a Trade and business of sin , of preaching for hire , persecuting for Tythe , promoting the Popes Pay , and Parish posture , since they were sworn to endeavour the extirpation of all Popery , looking every one for his gain from his quarter , which un-Saints themselves , and states them still in unregeueracy , if T.Ds. words be true ( as its sure enough they are ) when he sayes thus , Indeed the Saints do not sin , this is in the state of unregeneracy , whereof this is one character , they cannot cease from sin ; for howbeit , they have long since well nigh left off to do good , yet these and many more evils they abhor not , nor have so much as ceased from to this day . But to let pass that , observe Secondly , How T.D. distinguishes the Saints from the Devil , and the unregenerate ones that are yet born of him , by this Character ( which is the true one ) of ceasing , and not ceasing from sin : The Devil ( quoth he ) and the unregenerate , they make a free trade and business of sin , and never cease to sin ( true enough ) but thus the Saints sin not , but the course of sin , which the other keep , is broken off , so that there 's not this free trade between sin and their Souls , as is among others , who do hoc agere , sin , and cease not from it , but the Saints they cease from it . Rep. Caiphas-like , more truth then T.D. was well aware of when he told it , even so much , and no less ( and no more do we need from him ) then whereby he has as fully yielded us our Question , as I have shewed he hath done all the rest we had to do with him about , excepting that of the infallibility of the Gospel Ministry affirmed by us , which yet he hath also yielded so far to towards the truth of , as will force him to give us all that too at last , sith he hath confessed the meer fallibility of their own , the ignorance of which I do not much marvel that he confesses , since he charges Christ himself with such ignorance and fallibility , as whereby ( unawares to himself , and not knowing that he was such a one ) he ●●ose a Devil to be his Minister . See page 45. 1 Pamp. which Devil yet ( say we ) to wit Iudas , though he prov'd so at last by transgression , falling back from that true Apostleship he once obtain'd , Act. 1. was not known to be so , because ( saving T. Ds. groapable darkness ) he was not so from the beginning , nor when Christ chose him , but one of the Twelve that had the Spirit , as the other eleven had , Matth. 10.20 . and when he fell into the deceit , and so became Diabolos , alias , one that acts by deceit , and abode not in the Truth , before ever there was any appearance of it to the Disciples , Christ was not so ignorant of it , but that he knew it as well as Iudas did himself . But as to the Questiou again , which is , Whether in this life the Saints may attain to such a state of freedome from sin , as not to sin , but to cease from it , and live without it ? T.D. sayes nay , we say yea : Who shall be judge ? What Witness have we to our Assertion ? let that of God in all Consciences judge , and let T.Ds. Witness be taken for us against himself ; yea , what need we further Witness ? ye your selves , all people that can read , may read it under his own hand in his Answer to us ; viz. That whereas the Devil and his Children sin , and whilst his cease not from it any more then their Father who begets them to it ; the Saints do not sin thus ; but by this character are to be known from the sinners , who cease not from it , viz. in that the Saints cease from sin , which is indeed the very thing required to be ceased from , & therefore possible to be done by all them that have that sam● mind of Christ , 1 Cor. 2.16 . Phil. 2.5 . 1 Pet. 4.1 . even by the ●ame Power whereby it was done in himself , for as much as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh , a●m your selves likewise with the same mind , for he that hath suffered in the flesh , hath ceased from s●n . Thus T.D. suo se ingul●vit gla●●● , hath laid his cau●e a bleeding , and wounded it to death with his own wea Yet least T.D. should begin to pick up his crums and fight us again wit● such foolish fragments as these , viz. that though the Saints do sometimes cease from sin , are not always sinning yet they may sin , again and fall into soul enormities , ( which , what ere they are , our Sinner like Saints use to call but infirmities , when a Professor commits them ) as David did through weaknesse , &c. Rep. 1. This is not to the Question , which ( as T.D. undertakes it against us ) is not whether those men call'd Saints cannot sin any more , or not , after once they come upon a true account under that domination of Saints ; but whether such a state , as to cease from sinning be attainable in this life yea or nay ? as to the other , we know well enough what to say of it , as occasion is , but as for this about which sub judice lis est , T.D. hath consented to us in it , and we shall take him at his word . And for as much as T.D. here so plainly asserts it that the Saints do at least sometimes cease from sin , are not alwayes sinning , but have the course of it , which the wicked keep on in , broken off , this minds me of another contradiction and crosse whet which he gives to himselfe out hf his Crosse Bow ; for how is this consistent with his Reply to G. W. p. 6.7 . of his 2. Pamp. where to T. Ds. absur'd positions viz. that a believers person with his works are accepted with God , though his works be not perfect , G. W. Answering thus , viz. here he would have believers like the Priests , who sin in the best of their performances ( as they confesse ) but I say the believers workes are wrought in God , and these works of God are perfect , As for our confession ( quoth T. D. ) 't is agreeable to Scripture : There 's not a man on earth that doth good , and sinneth not , Eccles. 7.20 . i.e. That sinneth not in doing good , inquity of holy things is spoken of , Exod. 28.38 . Duties which are holy for the matter are iniqui●y , for the manner of performance . Rep. By which it seemes T.D. judges , there is such a continuall course of sinning in the Saints , as that they cannot cease from it at all , for if while they are doing good , and performing duty they are sinning and doing iniquity , then how much more while they are doing materiall evill and iniquity it self , and so consequently cease not from it at all ; : Which if they do not , then how do they cease as T.D. sayes they do ? here 's another stabb with his own Dagge● , which T.D. gives himself , whose words are such Swords to himself , and agree ●o well together by the eares among themselves that a man need but bring them out upon the open Stage , where such as are minded to behold the battell may see them , falling out , and fencing against each other , and killing both their Master and one another . And now I have that passage upon this occasion under hand , one word more to it a●o●e it passe ( for 't is not worth returning to it again ) if a believers works , which ( as G. W. truly said ) are wrought in God , and ( say I ) by God in them , & T. D. himselfe from Isa. 26.12 . dares not deny it , any more then I do deny that , all ma●s ●on righteousnesse wrought of himselfe , before and out of faith in the light are dung , unclean things and filthy rags from Isa. 64.6 . Phil. 3.8 . If I say a believers wo●k● be not perfect , and his doing good be sin , and his duties iniquity , let me ask thee T.D. doth God , who works the believers works in them , work works that are not perfect , but imperfect ? and if thou say , what he works at first in believers is but in part of what he will do , from 1 Cor. 13. Now we know in part , &c. Rep. Remember what I told thee above ; that in part is one thing , and imperfect is another , grace , holinesse , &c. in part is a perfect gift , ev●ry dram of it , as well as the highest degree of it , though 't is not so much in measure , as every spark of fire is perfect fire , though not so great a fire as the flame it comes from . But what do I talking of not p●rf●ct ? thou countest the best performances of the best Saints evill , sin , iniquity : does God then , who works all his Saints works in and for them ( absit blasphemia ) work evill , sin and ini quity ? 2 Thou sayst though a believers works are not perfect , but the best of them sin and iniquity , yet God accepts both believers and their works : hath iniquity then acceptance with God ? t is more then I can yet receive for truth , unlesse thou scratch and scrape out of the Scripture such texts as tell us he hath no pleasure in it : I know he taketh pleasure in his Saints , Psal 149. but that shewes that such as you , who take pleasure in pleading for ini●u●●y are none of the Saints ( what ere ye call your selves ) that he take , pleasure in . Ye use to say to God in your prayers . O Lord th●u art of purer eyes then to behold the least iniquity without abho●ring it , and the subiects of it , and such like , yet ( to go round again ) behold T.D. sayes believers works are sin iniquity , and yet God takes pleasure in , or accepts b●th the believer and his works . Finally I know so much of such Saints as your selves are Isa. 1.10 to 20. that 't is iniquity even your sol●mn meetings , and appointed fasts and feasts , but God takes no pleasure in them , yea his s●ul hates , loathes and detests them . But he hath a people and a sort of Saints ye know not , whose solemn meetings and sac●ifices are as incense before him , who are not sinners ( as ye confesse ye are ) in all they do , nor are their duties and doings of good , by his power , sin , evill , and iniquity : and these and their services ( while ye and all yours are a smoak , and stink in his nose ) are a sweet smelling savour to ●im , in all the good they do . 3. As to a mans falling into sin again , after he hath once ceased from it , I know no necessity of that ; which is the matter ye have to prove or else ye prove nothing at all to your own purpose , who hold that men must needs sin , while they are in the body and cannot possibly do otherwise ; but I know a necessity ( let men sin as often and as long as they will ) of ceasing to si● , and of leaving it off , before they leave the body , otherwise if they dy not to it , but but live in it till they dy , and dy in it ( as Christ threatned the Pharisees they should do ) 't were good for them had they never been born ; there being no place for repentance from or purgation from it after death and notwithstanding your pretended necessity of a●l mens sinning while they breath bodily here on earth , yet I know not only A necessity , as aforesaid , unless they mean ( the Tree lying as it falls ( as ye use to preach ) and the eternall Judgement finding all men as death leaves them ) to be remedilessly miserable for ever ; but a possibility also by the grace vouchsafed ( if themselves be not wanting in its improvement ) of ceasing finally from sinning , while in the body ; nor ( sith T. D. confesses the Saints do cease from sin , and its continued cou●se is broken off in them ) can any man tell me why the●e should be less possibility of ceasing from sin , or more necessity of sinning to morrow then to day , or next day then to morrow , and from that time of a mans first abstaining from what evil the Light in his conscience convinces him of , and condemns him for , and so successively onward to his lives end ? the same power that kept him to day , being as all-sufficiently able ( as he keeps to it ) though the Temptation daily comes , to keep him from the transgression to morrow , and the next day , and even for ever : And who can tell me , why he that withstood one temptation to any transgression by the Light and Power of God , may not as well ( if in his will he turn not from the same Power , which is alwayes nigh , and ready to keep him ) withstand another , and ●o another , and so all , so as to escape the transgression ? And why he that was not drunk , nor lewd , nor proud , nor injuri●us , nor w●cked , nor unrighteous , nor deceitful , nor abominable , nor disorderly to day , must needs be so another time ? his being subject to passions , pollutions , extravagancies , vanities , inordinancies of mind , is but an argument to evince how much the more need he hath at all times to stand upon his guard , and to put on the Armour of the Light , and keep the stricter watch to it , which who so does shall find the Power of it in him prevailing more and more in the warfare , to the perfect overcoming , and the bringing f●rth of Iudgement in him unto victory at the last , but who so does not , while he stands , take heed to his way by it ( as young men are bid , in order to the cleansing of their way , Psa. 119.9 ) There is not I confess more necessity nor possibility of the others standing , then there is of this mans falling into mischief . Howbeit , which way soever the man in medio is swayed , whether by the lustings of the flesh to covetousness , pride , envy , hatred , deceit , unrighteousness , lasciviousness , revenge , &c. to mind and walk after the flesh , or by the lustings of the Spirit , to love , peace , purity , meekness , temperance , patience , &c. or which way soever that man is born and begotten , whether by the Spirit of God from above , or the Spirit of the Devil from beneath , which in him lusteth unto evil , &c. I●m . 4.5 . and consequently whose child soever he is at any time of the twain , which is according to the prevalency , and predominancy , and perminency of this or that Seed in him , viz. the Seed or Word of God , or that lying Word or Seed of the Serpent , for his he is still to whom ●e obeyes , yet this is sure enough , as I said before , that he that abides in that which is of God sinneth not , 1 Ioh. 3.6 . and he that sinneth is gone from that , and born and begotten by the Devil another way , even after his Image , and he that is so , is of the Devil , and a man of sin , and sinneth uncessantly as his Father doth , who hath begot him into his likeness , and he that doth true righteousness is born of God to it , and he that 's born of God , and bears his Image , which longer then any man doth , he is not of God , sinneth not , overcome● the world , keepeth himself that the wicked one toucheth h●m not , neither can he sin , while so , because he is born of God , and the Seed of God remaineth , is head , permanent , prevalent , and preheminent in him ; and so which of these two sorts men are , matters not much to the point , sinners ( as such ) are sinners ever , and not Saints , and Saints are Saints ever ( as such ) and not Sinners , and each hath his reward from God as his work is , and he that 's holy is hely , and he that 's righteous is righteous , and he that 's unjust unjust still , and he that 's wicked is wicked still , and he that 's good is good , and not evil , and he that 's evil is evil , and not good , and the godly are they that are godly , and none else , and the ungodly are ungodly , and nothing else that 's opposite to it , for contraries cannot be denominated both of the same subject at the same time , and each of these as they are ( reapse ) in very deed , so are they in Gods account , who accounts all men and things truly what they are , and not as man ( who wearies the Lord with his words , saying , Every one that do h evil is good in the sight of the Lord , and God delighteth in him , and who is abuniration with the Lord for s●d●ing , Pr●v . 17.15 . Mal. 2.17 . ) calling good evil , evil good , nor justifying the wicked , or condemning the righteous , but in his righteous Judgement ( which evil men understand not , Pro. 28.5 . ) as it is revealed in the Light , which is the day thereof , rendring to all according to their deeds , secret as well as open , by Christ Iesus , according to the Gospel Paul preached , to the patient continues in well doing Eternal Life , to the contentious ones against the Truth , that obey not it , but unrighteousness , indignation and wrath , tribulation and anguish , and this to every soul of man that doth evil , Iew or Gentile , Rom. 2. And so ●he only that doth righteousness is righteous , and is of God , and accepted with him , and he that doth not righteousness , is not of God , nor he that hateth his Brother , & hath no Eternal life from God abiding in him , and be that sinneth is of the Devil , and hereby the Children of God are manifested , and the children of the Devil , and each hath his own Fathers portion , as he bears his image , nature , and proportion ; and as no righteous one is rejected or reprobated , so no unrighteous one is elected or accepted , but without respect of persons in every Nation , he that fears God , and works righteousness in Christ , the Light , is accepted with him . And howbeit , the righteous turning from his righteousness to iniquity , may die , as the wicked turning from his wickedness to that which is lawful and right , may live ; and the same person may turn , and return , and turn again , and be in possibilities of life or death , according as he chuses , when both are ●et a●ore him , yet the wayes of God are equal , and his Iudgements according to truth , and each man ha●h from him for ever as he doth ; and though the man that is now a Sinner , may become a Saint like David , and a sinner again , and by true repentance and purging with hysop a Saint again yet the Saint hath no part with the Sinner in his Lake , nor the Sinner any share in the inheritance of the Saints , which is in Light , but each hath his own peculiar and proper reward , and the heart of the one knows his own heaviness , and the stranger intermeddles not with the others joy . And howbeit men may of unbelievers become believers , and believers in the Light may by an evil heart of unbelief draw back to perdition , and depart from the living God , yet whether they believe or not , God abideth faithful , and cannot deny himself ; the believers portion that believes is the Life , and the unbelievers part is the Lake , : And though he that is now an unbeliever ( m●diante side ) may become a believer , and be saved , and he that now believes making shipwrack of his Faith and good Conscience ( as Iudas , and others did ) may come to be damned , yet no believer is ever damned , nor is any unbeliever ever saved ; but the Foundation of the Lord , who knows his own evermore , stands ever sure , let men go which way they will , who owns none that name the name of Christ , and depart not from iniquity , and owns all who ere they be that do , according to his everlasting and unchangeable Decree , that stands thus stedfast without variation for ever , viz. that he that believes only shall be saved , and he that believes not shall be damned , Mar. 16.16 . So then every Saint ceases from sin ( as T.D. also saves ) and he that ceases not from it is no Saint , or holy one , but a Sinner , and the sinner cannot but sin , and do as his Father the Devil who begets him does , and he that 's a Saint is born of God , and 〈◊〉 that 's ban of God doth not s●n , neither can , because so : And though there be among the Sons of God degrees of growth in Grace and Faith , as to the measure of it ( as I said ) degrees among believers , for which T. D. sillily suppos'd I meant , that some of these have a mixture of sin with their grace , page 18. 1 Pamp. Yet I deny any mixture of sin and grace together , which they are no more capable of then water and oyl ; but every Believer and Babe ( as so ) that is truly born of God , is perfect after Christs own Image , and in the Divine Nature , though not yet grown up into the measure and fulness of Christs stature , and stands justified and accepted in the sight of God , and out of the condemnation , while out of the transgression ; and every unbeliever in the Light is out of God and Christ , who are Light , & is in the darkness , and of the Devil the Prince of darkness , and is in the condemnation , because in the transgression , and one with that Seed which is in the Reprobation , and each Seed , and the Son that respectively is born of it , hath its own proper portion divided out unto it , and that which is of the Spirit hath life together with it , and who is of the Serpent and the fl●sh sows to it , and ( if not parted from it ) must perish together with it , and accordingly reap nothing but corruption . And as to all the rest of T. Ds. R●plyes to our Reasons , rendred as to this point at the Dispute at Sandwich , which Replyes of his having no more force of reason in them , then there is strength in a rush , as to their reaching to hurt the truth , though I need not take any notice of them , in order to the consuting of T.D. he having so fairly consured himself already , as is above shewed , yet for the sakes of such as are honest hearted , and willing to see the truth I may run over to the rest , in such wise as follows . Next then in answer to G. W. who told him truly how he wrested the Scriptures to his own destruction ( for so by his Emphases he does indeed ) T.D. sayes no● ●●r ( quoth he ) the New-birth agrees to all the Saints , and if it excludes the being of sin ( here he goes off from the terms , for he should have said the sinning , acting , or assenting to sin ) in some , it must in all , for the Seed remains in all as well as any . Rep. I say so too ; and therefore ( for the reason is sufficiently rendred above ) it is that no Saint that 's born of God ( as so ) doth sin or can ( while such ) if he do he is no Saint , 't is the sinner , and not the Saint that sins , which is begotten back by the Devil , from that of God , into his own Image , Likeness , and Nature , and by the Serpent beguiled again , as Paul was jealous the Corinthians would be , and as the Galatians were bewitched form the obedience of the truth . But now [ quoth T. D. ] least ye should be so mad as to assert all Saints to be free from sin [ from sinning still he should say for sin may be dead in a man who sins not , nor lives in it ] pray read , Joh : 1 : 1 : 8 : If we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves and this is spoken of such persons as of whom it is denyed that they commit sin , persons that had fellowship with the Father and his Son Iesus Christ , v : 3. Rep. Here he hath brought more fuel for that fire that is already burning his drossy divinations : The foolish Woman can do no other in the day that 's approaching ; but pull down her own House with her own hands : And so doth folly befool the divine doers against the truth in these dayes into an utter undoing of themselves . T●is is spoken of such ( quoth he ) of whom it s said they commit not sin , so say I and of such of whom it s said they sin not . Therefore T.D. may be sure he can fetch nothing hence in proof of it , that they do sin . It s said of such ( quoth he ) as had fellowship with the Father and Son , so say I , which proves them not now to be sinners , but must necessarily prove them ( and so indeed it does ) to be free from sin , and the deeds of darkness , not sinning , not walking in the darkess , or any deeds of it , but in the Light , now at least , what ere the had done , in which light who walkes ( as it leades him , ) cannot sin any more then he can , that walkes not after the fl●sh , but after the Spirit , and is led not by the flesh , but by the Spirit , which Light and Spirit never led any yet into sin : So the very Text and his own rea●on T. D. brings to conclude them Sinners , excludes them utterly from being Sinners now , for had they been so , they could not have had that fellowship with God , and Christ , which T. D. said they now had : For God is light , in him is no darknesse at all , if we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darknesse we ly and do not the truth ; but if we walk in the Light as he is in the light , then have we fellowship , and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from All Sin : If we say we have no sin , we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us ; But if we confesse our sins he faithfull and just , to forgive us our Sins , and cleanse us from All unrighteousness ; if we say we have not sinned we make him a lyar , &c. Who but such night Owls , as can see better by night then they can by day , can pick out such a thing as this from any one of these verses , viz. that Iohn and the Saints he here writes to , even of the least growth and lowest measure , however they had been so , did sin and were sinners at this pres●nt when he wrote it ? That they all had sin once and had sinned , its evident enough as I told T. D. then , for if we say we have not sinned ( saith he ) we make God a lyar : Yea , had they never sinned they had needed neither that pardon nor purging and perfect cleansing from all sin all unrighteousness he there affirms ( they confessing their sins ) God was faithfull to give them , as well as to forgive all what they had committed , and which they then witnessed ( in praesenti ) but that at this time they were sinning and sinners not one title in all that Text doth Testifie . T. D. But yea must not think to ●ut us off●s● , ( quoth T. D. v. 8. 'T is Amartian Ouk Echomen and the other is Ouk Emartekamen , suppose the latter verse to be understood of the sins which praeceded the new birth , yet the former is expressely ( de presenti ) that we have ( not have had ) no sin . Rep. Who doubts of this but that E●h m●n , is the present tense ? we know Iohn saves if we say that we have no Sin , we deceive our selves . But what then my friend ? because he sayes it ( in presenti ) will it follow that they were Sinners ( in presenti ? ) cu●us contrarium , &c. For as its most evident that the 10. v. is explanatory and expositive of the 8. to him that well heeds the 9. v. that comes between them ; So if he had not in one of them , given out his own mind and meaning ( not thine ) about the other ; yet , all that 's spoken [ in presenti ] is not [ as thou judgest ] spoken , [ de praesenti ] but not a little of the same nature with this is by the Pen-men utter'd [ in praesenti ] in the present Time and Ten●e , that relates not [ ad praesens ] but [ ad praete●itum ] to the time past onely , as uttered concerning that : Iam. 3.8 , 9. he sayes of the tongue it s an unruly evill , full of deadly poison , and [ in praesenti ] therewith blesse we God , therewith curse we men , made after Gods Image , alias Saints : will any man be so simple as to conclude from hence that Iames and the Saints were now , at this time c●●sers of men or of Saints that bare Gods Image , or that he wrote this of himself and them [ de praesenti ] as concerning this present time , wherein he writes it ? and not rather understand him as speaking of man as he is in the fall , unrenewed , in statu corrupto , immorigero , inconverso , of men yet unconverted to the truth ? which teacheth better fruits then such bitter f●i●s , as these , which yet [ for all your blessing God with the same mouth ] ye national Ministers are found bringing forth at this day ; does he not speake it of men as they ly dead in trespasses and sins , and so consequently of himself , and the Saints as [ de praeterito ] concerning the time past , who in times past had their conversation among such as Paul sayes , Eph : 2 : 2 : 3 : Tit : 3 : 2 ? So Rom : ● : 14 : Paul sayes [ in praesenti ] I am carnall , s●ld under sin , I find a Law in my members , carrying me captive into the Law of sin , and much more then that in the present tense through that Chapter : is any man but he , whose own wisdome is all foolishnesse for want of heeding the measure of the light , and Gods wisdom● in his own heart , so foolish at to interpret Paul as speaking of himself and his present state in those words , and so as to conclude that Paul while he in the Spirit of God wrote that Epistle to the Romans was carnall , s●ld under sin , enslaved to it , carried captive by it , led at the will of Sin and Satan , as he had once been before the Light or Law in the Spirit and he came together ? at which time began the war , before which war , as he was in his contracted corrupt nature [ howere he thought not so till the Light shew'd it him ] Sin was alive in him and he dead in it , and a servant to it ; under which war also [ if he kept not to his watch ] he might loose ground sometimes , and gain it again , [ as he recover'd to his watch to the light and stood arrayed with the Armour thereof ] in which continuing stedfast at last he obtained the victory , of which he speakes in the same place ch . 8.2 , 3 , 4. so that at praesent he witnessed the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ , the light , which warr'd in his mind against the Law of his members , had now made him free from that Law of Sin and Death which once he was so pester'd with that he cryed out of himselfe ' as wretched by reason of it , and witnessed also the Son of God condemning Sin so perfectly in his fl●sts by Christs power in him , that the righteousnesse of the Law was now fulfilled in himselfe , and other Saints , and himselfe walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit . I say can any think Paul such a one , but such as sell themselves to Folly ? not considering that Paul speaks of three states he had experienced , one before the Law or Light , when he lay dead in sin , a 2 under it while he warred against it , a 3 in Christ , wherein he stood freed from and in full dominion over it , ( but one of which 3 he could possibly be in at once and at this time , and that was the 3d , having passed the other two ( as is evident , ch . 8.2 . hath made me free ) can any but benighted ones , that being sold under sin themselves , measure others by themselves , Judge Paul to be ( the premises cosidered ) under the power of sin and unfreed from it at this present and that he wrote of himself as wretched de presenti , because he wrote it in praesenti , thus and thus I am ? had he not then subjected himselfe below the Saints he writes to , of whom he sayes chap. 6. that even they were made free from sin ? as well he , who were once the servants of it , and yielded their members up to obey it as he was and did ; of which persons yet T. D. in the name of T. Rumsey simply says p. 47.1 . Pamp. It cannot be meant simply that they were freed from sin , because Paul , c. 14.10 . sayes ( not so much by way of condemnation ( say I ) as by way of caution to them ) that they should not judge and set a● naught one another : for why dost thou , there may be by way of memorandum and warning as well Christs , how wilt thou ? and why beholdest thou , thou hypocrite ? to his own Disciples Math. 7.2 , 3. and as Pauls other why d●st thou ? 1 Cor. 4. ● . which was not by way of downright charge and censure , but by way of prevention of such things as should not be : and hint how it ought to be among them ; but undoubtedly Paul. Rom 7. speakes as concerning how it was with him in times past when he lay under sin , and while he passed throw his warfare against it : being at present in the state of victory over it , which state of victory the Scripture every where speaks of , as that the Saints come to here , even to the overcoming of the world and the lust of it while they live in it , 1 Ioh. 5.4 , 5. Rev. 2. Rev. 21.7 . which our Priests put far from themselvs and their people , as a state attainable onely in the world to come . Yea Oh the blindnesse that 7. of the Rom. for want of heeding the 8. together with it , is made the common place of our blind guides and night-nursing Fathers , from whence , upon the account of Pauls out-cry , O wretched man that I am ! to nourish up their sinning Saints from fainting under the burden of their necessary infirmityes , and from whence to conclude Paul to have liv'd and dyed also without full freedom and perfect purging from his sins , and themselves much more to be under a necessity of sinning and living casually while they live . Which yet follows no more then it did from that of Iames above , from both which it will follow , as fully , as from that of Iohn I am yet in hand with , and that is indeed not one jot at all : If we say we have no sin , &c. Who that hath sinned can say he hath no sin ? for the sin he hath once committed , he hath , and the sins by which Iohn and they had sinned of old , were theirs ( or else they needed no Saviour nor purging ) as cursing men possibly might be sins of which Iames , and them he writes to , could not say we have no such , for such and such were some of you , saith Paul to the Saints , 1 Cor. 6. But now ye are washed , sanctified , justified by the Spirit , &c. So that if we confesse he is faithfull and just to forgive , and that 's not all ( though the Priest stops there ) but to cleanse us from all unrighteousnesse , yea the blood of Iesus his Son doth ( in praesenti ) cleanse us from All sin : If then there be any filth remaining theres not a cleansing from all , but if ( as the Text sayes it was to some ) it be from all , then there 's none at all remaining so as to be committed or acted to defilement ; though the Saints may be said to have it in and about them so as to be tempted to it , while it is fully under them , yet temptation to it is not transgression : And the same may be said of 2 Cor. 7.1 . let us cleanse [ though Paul himself was cleansed ] from all uncleannesse of flesh and Spirit ( then which I know no more ) p●rfecting holinesse in the fear of God , who ( say I ) commands not impossibilities to the visible Churches , in which sundry were , who were not clean ( as Christs Saints and true Disciples are through the word he speakes to them ) nor cleansing but some waxing worse and worse , Ioh. 13.10 , 11 , 16 , 3. Phil. 3.18 , 19. much lesse doth Christ command , no to his true Ministers ( as fast as false ones hasten to that fruitlesse work , if there own doctrine were true ) in his Name to command what is impossible ; yet even to the little children in the Church does Iohn write that they sin not , 1 Ioh. 2.1 . as well as of the young men in commendation , that they are strong and have overcome the wicked one , and yet there are Fathers beyond all these . Next to G. W. mentioning Phil. 3.15 . as many as be perfect &c. in proof of perfection here , T. D. Replyes well-nigh a whole page full of worth nothing , which is scarce worth noting on any other account then to shew how 't is worse then nothing to his own purpose : 1. He tells us , that 's spoken of grown Christians that were perfect in comparison of Babes . Rep. That every Babe in Christ is perfect , as to the divine nature , which assents to no sin , much lesse acts it . I have shew'd above , but if all that are born of God were not perfect , yet that some are T. D. there confesses , and if but one it proves the possibility of it , which we plead against him and he pleads against . 2 He tells us that [ perfect ] in Scripture is put for [ upright ] and these are made Synonimous , and of the same import . Rep. True , Perfect and upright are one , and both import no lesse then a man that sins not , Eccles. 7.29 . Adam in innocency was perfect , it 's said God made man upright : For while any are upright they are answerable to the Law or Light lent them to live by , which sin is the transgression of , and so no transgressours , and while they transgresse that Law they are not perfect , nor upright but crooked and so accounted . Whether it be Iob himself , whom T. D. so much instances in and insists on , p. 10. 1. Pamp. and p. 6. 2. Pamp. or David himselfe , or any other : Therefore while David stood in integrity and uprightnesse ( as mostly he did ) it preserved him , and God so accounted him and justified him , as an upright man , as he did Iob. 1.1 . in the same case : but where he turn'd aside into the deceit & defilement , God held him not upright , but hypocriticall , false , filthy and sinfull : much lesse did he therein hold him guiltlesse and justifie , him ( as most ignorantly T. D. delivers it that he did p. 38. 1. Pamp. ) even when he was guilty of adultery and murder ; in which juncture nevertheless T.D. sayes he was not in a condemned state , but in a justified estate : The Scripture exempts him from justification , so far , that it vouchsafes him not that denomination of an upright man in that matter of Vriab , but brands him with the name of a pittylesse , blood guilty man , a secret evill doer in the sight of the Lord , a despiser of him , and his comandement , and a causer of Gods enemies to blaspheme his Name , Psal. 51. 2 Sam. 12.6 , 9 , 10 , 12 , 14. Howbeit this one thing by the way is worth noting concerning T. D. ( not for any good that is in it or in T. D. as touching his demeanour in it ) that when he speaks of the Saints good and duty that they do , he says that 's not perfect , but an unclean thing , dung and filthy rags : yea , that he calls sin and iniquity p. 7. 2. Pamp. They sin ( quoth he ) in doing good : duties holy for the matter are iniquity for the manner ●f performance : but when the Saints ( as in Davids ca●e ) commit Adultery and Murder , he pronounces them blessed , as having no guile nor guilt in their Spirit , but sincere ( which is the same with upright or perfect ) see p. 11. 1. Pamp. David ( quoth he ) Psal. 32.2 . Pronounces the man blessed , which hath no guile in his Spirit or sincere , which himselfe was at that time , though under the guilt of a great sin v. 5. which is by interpreters supposed to be the same sins for which psal . 51. was composed . Rep. Here 's Doctrine of Divinity with a witnesse ; when the Saints do the best good , they sin , their holy things are all as an unclean thing , their righteousness is dung , filthy rags ( though T. D. holds also that Paul had no righteousness which was not Christs p. 22. 1. Pamp. nor any righteousnesse , but what from Christ he received ) their performing duty at least is no lesse then iniquity , but when they are under the guilt of such great sins as Adultery and Murder , oh blessed men they at that time have no guile in their Spirits , are in sincerity or ( to speakin the diminutive Phrase by which sometimes he lessens the foul faults and great sins of the Saints ) at the worst but under infirmity : But be it this or be it that , greater or lesse , better or ●●●se , infirmity or iniquity , good or evill , duty or dung , righteousness or rags , holy or unclean , the upshot of all is this , the men are blessed men , what ere they do , they are never in a condemned , but ever in a justified estate ; and let their works be as they will , perfect or not perfect , good or duty , which they call unclean , dung , iniquity or filthy rags , their persons [ though thus sinning ] are ever Saints , and believers , which together with their works , are accepted with God , who yet ( say I ) never accepted any such works , as are iniquity and sin , nor any Persons , while they are the workers of them . And as to the remnant of T. D's , talk in answer to ● . ● . which is to this purpose , viz. that Paul Phil. 3.12 . Denyes any such perfection , as is exclusive of sin till that last and bodily resurrection from the dead , which he looks not for in this life , which answer he is so in love with , that he hath it in his 1st pamp . p. 10. and also ore again in his 2d Pamp. p. 6. Rep. I shall answer that no other wise then out of T. D's . own mouth , who ( as I am , as to my self , credibly enough inform'd by A. P. ) in a meeting among many at Sandwich , since those publike disputes we had since the edition of both his books , being 〈◊〉 the precise time wherein perfect purging is , answered when the Soul , being passed out of the body , is in its passage between here and heaven . ( or to that purpose ) which , is but so , and no somer , must then be before the resurrection he talks of : and if he will not be convinced by his own words , that sin is excluded before the resurrection , much lesse is it likely he should believe any of mine . Adding this however , viz. That if ye lye down in your graves with your bones full of sin , ye shall rise with them full of sorrow , was wont to be the Priests argument to the people , to perswade them to a purging from all sin before they dye , because no purging to be lookt after death , much lesse so long of after , as at the resurrection . Verbum sat sapienti . The next answer of T.D. is to the Argument urged from Psal. 119.1 , 2 , 3. which he , who renders all we said as weakly , lamely and decrepidly as he possi●ly can for his own ends , repeats not half so much as by the halves , for I wisht him him to heed all the 3. verses which were then peraphras'd to him , and argued f●●m in such wise as followeth , viz. they that are undefiled in the way , are not defiled in the way ; they that walk in the Law of the Lord , do not transgresse it ; they that keep his Testimonies , do not break them ; they that seek him with their whole heart , serve him not by the halves , not him and sin , but him alone and wholly ; they that done iniquity , do not sin ; they that walk in his way , do not walk besides it ; but there were some ( or else they could not be pronounced blessed , for the Spirit blesses not such men as are not ) and such now may be ( for quod fieri potuir potest , what was then , is possible to be now ) who are undefiled in the way , walk in the Law of the Lord , that keep his Testimonies , and seek him with their whole heart , who do no iniquity , and walk in his way : Therefore 't is possible that the Saints may be freed from sinning in this life : The summe of what T. D. Replyes to all this is that the Phrases are hyperbolicall : which is a little better at least , but how much I list not here to tell , then if T.D. had said , they are hypocriticall , or ( as his wonted replyes are , when he can find no better , as I have shewed above ) the meaning of the words cannot be as the letter of them doth import , the Spirit meanes not as he sayes , the Spirits meaning may be mistaken , when his words are taken in the most ordinary liter all sense , and so it would be , if undefiled and doing no iniquity , should be meant truely of being undefiled and doing none iniquity indeed p. 11. 1. Pamp. It s meant of having respect to all Gods Commandements in respect of design and endeavour though falling short in accomplishment , v. 6. being explanatory of the other . Rep. Oh the impudency of this man ? what have we ( for all this he sayes against the plain literall sense of the Spirits words ) whereby to assure us that the Spirit means not as his own words import , but onely in that shambling sense which T. D. shuffles them into ? whose words must be taken ? T. D's . or Davids , and the Spirits ? the very literall sense of which is exclusive of all sin and defilement , and strictly expressive of doing no iniquity at all ? who that is born of God doth not see T. D. to be a strict pleader for loosenesse , and endeavourer to uphold the D●vills Kingdom ? the Spirit pronounces them blessed , and no more , in whose whose Spirit there is no guilt , that do no iniquity , walk in in Gods way , and keep his Testimonies or Commandements , T. D. will bring in a bastard brood into this blessednesse , that fa●l short in the accomplishment of this , that must be supposed at least to be ever respecting , designing , and endeavouring to do that businesse , which yet , notwithstanding all their respects , designes and endeavours , they are to believe they must never do , it being not possible to be done : they must alwayes dwell at the sign of the Labour in Vain , and be striving to wash the Blak-More white and alwayes roling Sysiphus's Stone ; ever purifying never pure , ever mortifying their earthly members , fornication , uncleannesse , inordinate affection to the world , evill concupiscence , covetousnesse , Idolatry , Anger , Wrath , Lying , Filthy Communication , but never while they live obtain to witnesse these so mortifyed , as to be no more committed , least such an absurdity as this should follow , that the Scripture [ which I confesse is found contradicting these meaning-makers on it ] be found contradictory to it self : for [ quoth T. D. p. 59. 2 Pamp. all the Scriptures , which require repentance and mortification during this life , do deny the possibility of perfection : For they and it are incompatible . We are bid [ quoth he ] to mortify our earthly members , inordinate desires , motions and actions of corrupt * ●nature , that is , constantly endeavour to represse and subdue them . And there 's no reason but that Gods Commands should run in that old stile though we are not able to fulfill them : Rep. Of all the peices of proof against the possibility of perfection , that ever I heard , made by T. D. himself or any other , This is the most monstrously rediculous : draw this rude and crude matter into its own form and the force of it runs ihus . That , which God requires and commands us to be alwayes doing , and constantly endeavouring to do during this life , can never possibly be done or effected during this life : for if it be once fully done , effected and accomplished , then we can't be alwayes doing it , and so not obey what God requires . But God requires we should be alwayes mortifying , constantly endeavouring to represse and subdue the actions of corrupt nature during this life : Therefore its impossible [ unlesse we be left uncapable of doing what God requires ] that we should in this life perfectly mortify and subdue them . In short , that , which must be ever in fieri while we live , can't be in facto esse till we dy , but we are ( in fieri ) to be alwayes purifying our selves while we live : Therefore [ least there be no more work of that kind for us to do ] we may not lawfully or cannot possibly be pure till we ay , Rep. This is even as hand●ome a shift , as if a Debtor promising to owe & endeavour to pay his Creditor 20l. should never pay it him , upon the pretence of an impossibility to perform his promise , if he do once pay the mony , I must ever owe him the mon●y , and stand engaged to endeavour to pay it , therefore [ unlesse I make my selfe uncapable of performing my promise , which I am alwayes mindfull of performing ] I must never actually pay it . But now as to T. D's . place , who would it seems willingly be alwayes in Gods debt during his life , but never come out of it till after death , ever owing so much love as fulfills the Law , but never practising it , so as to fulfill the Law ▪ I must arrest him ( for all his shift ) and deny the minor of his Argument : We are not required to be alwayes doing or endeavoring to suppre is and mortify sin so as never to bring the work to accomplishment in th ss life ; but once to effect it before we dye ; for As they are blamed that are over learning and never able to come to the knowledg of the Truth ; So are they as little accepted , that are allwayes seeking to God dayly in pretence , as a Nation that had a mind to do Righteousness , asking of him the Ordinances of Iustice , seeming to take delight in approaching to God , that they might know his wayes , alwayes ( when the appointed time comes ) Fasting and Praying , humbling and afflicting their Souls for a day , and hanging down their heads as a Bullrush , thinking that to be a Fast of the Lords chusing , and the acceptable day of the Lord , yet never loosing the bands of wickednesse , nor undoing the heavy burden , nor breaking every yoak , nor letting the oppressed Seed of God in their own hearts , nor without neither , go free , ever and anon fasting for sin , never from it , ever reforming never reformed , ever running , never obtaining , alwayes making a shew of mortifying sin , never making any true effectuall mortification of it , ever warring , never overcoming , nor quenching the fiery darts of the wicked , nor dislodging the vain thoughts that are in them , nor coming to the end of the Commandement , which is love from a pure heart , good conscience , and faith unfamed , allwayes beating the aire but never keeping under the body , nor bringing it into subjection to the power of Truth , ever owing that love , which works no ill but fulfills the Law , never performing any thing but that hatred which breaks the law , debtors alwayes to the Spirit , but living after the flesh , and never by the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body that they may live to God , such sluggardly wishers and wouldens , and seekers and respecters , and pretenders , and striuers and runners , fighters , reformers , and mortifiers will be cast away at length for all their constant endeavours ; sith they do not so much as look to overtake what they run after , nor reach the high prize they professe to presse to in this life , which if they do not , themselves say also t is to late to effect and obtaine it after death . But Qui cupit optatam cursu contingere metam Multa , tulit , fecitque puer , sintavit & alsit . 'T is good for a man to bear Christs Yoak in his youth , sith the Soul of the sluggard desireth and hath nothing , but the Soul of the diligent shall be made far . As for the residue of T. Ds. reply to the argument above , as some of it has bin toucht on before , so what was not is scarce worth mentioning . He tells us v. 6. which talks of respect to all Gods Commands , explaines all the other . Rep. T. D. sayes so but wher 's his proof ? beside if it be so , a true , real respect ( though such a slender one as he rests in does not ) stands in a due and true observation of them ; is he worthy to be respected as a true respecter of Gods Commandements that breaks them ? T.D. David excludes himself from the blessed Estate , if undefiled and doing no iniquity be meant strictly here , sith his wish , v. 5. and other passages shew he was not free from sin , which surely David did not intend , because , Psal. 32.2.5 . he pronounces blessednesse to the man in whose Spirit is no guile , who is sincere , as himself was at that time , though then under the guilt ( as is supposed by interpreters ) of his great sin of murder and adultery , for which Psal. 51. was composed . Rep. 1st . some of this dirty stuff I spoke to but a little before , the falsehood of which is evident , for whereas the Scripture sayes , David was not upright in the matter of Uriah , T.D. sayes , yea he was sincere and had no guile in his Spirit when under the guilt of those great sins . 2d . as to the rest , what if David did exclude himself ? If he were under those great evills , he might well exclude himself from the blessednesse of sincere ones , till he came into the sense of Gods Love again & to repentance ; while he pronounced the undefiled ones blessed that did no such iniquity , he had reason to take the curse as his own portion to himself , and to cry out of himself , Talaiporos Anthroyos O wretched man that I am , more deservedly then Paul , who ( though ( in zeal of God ) shedding blood ) yet was , 't is like , never such a deep Adulterer , and deliberate Murderer as David was in Vriahs case : and as God said to Israel Hos : 9.1 : so might David say to himself , rejoyce not thou as other ( honest ) people , for thou a●t gone a who ●ing from thy God : and if that were his case ( as thou intimatest it was ) wherein he was so desperately defiled with filth and blind , he might well exclude himself from it , having no reason to take to himself the blessing of the undefiled : or whether he excluded himself or no from it , this I am sure ( for all thy foolish dreams about Davids good Condition , Iustification , Blessednesse and Vprightness , whilst under the guilt of those sordid Iniquities , that the Scripture excludes him in that case so far from blessednesse , that it concludes him neither upright ( as thou simply dost ) not so much as a respecter of Gods Commands , which at least thou dorest , he was , even when he called that all abomination ( whiles thou Judg him ( as Indeed thou doest ) to have respect to Gods commandments , that despises both God and him , for 2 Sam. 12. as much as thou smoothest over those abominable businesses the better to sooth thy self and some sinful Saints like thy self , in your lusts and iniquities , as no more then Saints infirmities , who have respect to all Gods Commandemets in respect of design and indeavour , though falling short in accomplishing : yet when Nathan came to him well-nigh a year after he had lyen , in that dirty pickle in impenitency under the guilt of those gross impieties , he is so far from sowing pillows and daubing with such untempered morter , as thou dost , and from including him in the lists of sincerity , and owning him as one that had respect to all Gods Commands , that he convinces him of his wicked hypocrisies and condemns him , as one that had despised both God himself and his Commandements . Next T. D. as he relates p. 11. 1 pamp . asking me whether I could produce one single example of a perfect Saint in our sense , I told him yea , instancing in Zachary and Elizabeth , Luke 1. 6. who were both Righteous before God ( not before man onely ) but before God , walking in all the Commandements of God ( not in some few or many , but all ) and Ordinances of God blameless . To this ( accounting for more then that he then said though 't is one to as little purpose as the other ) first ( quoth he ) how appeares it that righteous before God is meant of a perfect inherent Righteousnesse ? seeing a believers person with his works are accepted with God , though his works be not perfect : And in proof of this imperfect and crooked conceit of his own , he coats , Heb. 11. 4. By faith Abel offered a more excellent Sacrifice then Cain , by which he obtain'd witness that he was righteous , &c. and then adds that ( blameless ) is meant but comparatively , as Phil. 2.15 . that ye may be blameless and harmless , the Sons of God without rebuke , &c. in which same sense he sayes , Luke 4. understands the Phrase , to which he adds Phil. 3.6 . where Paul while a Pharisee sayes he was blameles as touching the righteousness of the Law , which he was onely externally conformable to and how Zachariah was at the same time blamed , and also punish't for his unbelief . Rep. in which piece of Reply of his , 1st . something is true but nothing to T. D's . turn , but rather such as serves the truths turn against his , but 2d . something most abominable confused , false and fained , viz. That a believers person with his works are accepted with God , though his works be not perfect . For how ere T. D's . calls and counts men ( as he does dain'd ) Saints and Believers , &c. while their works are not perfect , and not only not perfect but abominable also , wicked , sinful , filthy , hypocritical , deceitful , gross iniquity , Adultery , Murther , and despite to the Commands of God ( as Davids acting in Vriahs matter are called , Psal. 5.1 . 2 Sam. 13. ) guiltless , &c. yet , no such imperfect , evil workers ( while so ) are any more deem'd upright by God , then David was , who was not vouchsafed the name of upright in that case . 2d . much lesse are such as are not perfect but evil works , such as are at best but unclean , dung , iniquity and filthy rags ( yet such and no better does T. D. call the duties , and , as to the manner , the best performances of himself , and his sort of Saints ) of any acceptance at all ( as I have shewed well nigh newly above ) but rather an abhorrency in the sight of God , by what person soever acted : nor was Davids adultery with Bathsheba , and murder of Vriah , nor himself , as acting it , nor any service he did , or Sacrifice he offer'd while under the filth and blood-guiltnesse , and unrighteousnesse of it ( till he had throughly repented of it , was wasn't from it , and recovered out of it ) any more accepted as a sweet smelling savour with God , then the adultery of another man , then Cains murder of Righteous Abel , and the persons and performances of all such unrighteous livers , whose very Sacrifices , ( while they are such ) God hath no more respect to then he had to that of Cain , whose seed they are , whose Image and nature ( while they are doing so wickedly ) they all beare , and are found in ( David himself ( as so doing ) not excepted ) which Sacrifice of Cain , though else perhaps as costly as his brothers , had , together with his person , no such acceptance as Righteous Abel and his had , because at that time he was an evil doer , and then 't was the evil doer that did the good , Sin lay at the door , and kept the Sacrifice from acceptance , as it ever does where ere it lyes : for where and while there is a turning away , the care from the law ther 's the wicked one , there the person and the performance are both a stink before the Lord , yea the very prayers of the wicked are abominable . And in bringing Abel for an instance of a believers person and his works being accepted with God , though his works be not perfect , He quite cuts the throat of his own cause ; for both Abel and his works were true and perfect , and righteous before God ; and so they are both cal'd , Mat. 23. 35. Heb. 11. 4. 1 Iohn 3. 12. while Cain and his works are both call'd evil and of the Devil : and therefore had Abel and his works acceptance , when Cain and his had none , because he was righteous , not so esteemed of God while he was not so indeed ( as T. D. deems ) who because he so does , deems that God ( as himself ) deems those and theirs to be good and righteous , which in themselves ( inhaesive ) are nothing lesse , but ( saving that contrary account T. D. supposes God to have thereof ) really rather evill and unrighteous : For had Cain bin righteous and done well in other matters he had done well in offering , and bin accepted ; if thou do well shalt thou not be accepted ? but because he did Bonum and not Bene , being an evil doer and a sinner , when Abel being righteous did both , and was accepted , yet he was not accepted in his material doing that , which ( else ) was good : in which case Israels most solemn assemblies were Iniquity ( as those of Saints and believers are not , notwithstanding T. Ds. say so ) because their hands were defil'd with blood , and their fingers with moral iniquity : So by faith , which purified Abels heart and wrought by love and overcame the world in him , and the lust thereof , and which was both made and proved to be true and perfect by his works , did Abel , and so all true Saints and believers also do , come to offer a more excellent and acceptable Sacrifice then that of Cain , and his wicked Race , by which they obtain ( not mans but ) Gods own testimony that they are righteous , as Zachariah , and Elizabeth both did , in the place and case now in hand : which Testimony of God , who counts no things to be other wise then they really and truly are , is true , and will stand against all T. D's . tattl● to the contrary , and will be believed before his , by every true believer , though many such nominal believers as himself is , will believe no more of what God himself declares plainly , by such holy ones as wrote the Scripture , then what they list , and that 's little or nothing at all of that , that leaves them no license at all to please the lust : and therefore , the Righteousnes , blamelesness , Innocency , harmlesness of the Sons of God themselves , Phil. 2. 14. that are found in all good conscience towards both , and without rebuke before both God and men , whose blameless and righteous works , which are from God himself , and not of themselves , Isa. 26. 12. 54. 17. deeper dye then that of Pauls own Exact Pharisaical ; Traditional , External Conformity to the meer outward Letter , or Law of a Carnal Commandement in matter of external Ordinance ( which yet to the full was as good as any of that Religion or Righteousness of our morally unrighteous , Pharisaical Christians , now gloryed in by our literallists & legallists ) must be made no other then parralel'd with that of man , Phil. 3. 6. which had no more also then the Testimony of man , as to that denomination of blamlesness & Righteousnesse , yet was in truth ( because lying in outward observation of fleshly ceremony , more than inward Righteousness and morality ) no more worth than meer dung with God , and as to justification of any one in his sight that doted on it . As to that of Zachariah's being guilty of acting sin at that very time in which be as said to be Righteous , for which he was punished with dumnes , whereupon I told him then that in Elizabeth their was no fault found however , and so one instance might stop his mouth , who call'd for an instance of one single person only , but [ quoth he ] shee might be no more free from sin , then he , though there 's no mention of any sin of hers . Rep. I prov'd her to be blameless and righteous from the Text it self , it lyes in him to assign some sin of hers , if shee had any , but that he cannot do , but confesses there 's no mention of any : So that instance stands ore his head still : and whereas , at the Taile of his double Tale about his and her sins he tells another to make them three , viz. that my mouth was stopt , and I was silenced & had nothing to Reply , ( because I thought fit to be silent when enough was said ) T. D. doth but mistake himself , for 't was his own mouth that was then stopt , insomuch that I saw and heard some of those that stood about him take notice of him as meerly cavelling in that matter : but he that chuses to Outword them he cavills with , though to little purpose , must chuse to have the last word if he can . But whereas T. D. sayes thus , but in a word to put it out of doubt , Zachariah was at that time found guilty of the sin of unbelief , and was punisht for it , I say it s more then he will ever prove while he lives that he was so at all , much lesse in the very time of which its said that he was Righteous . For 1st . that time was before the time of his not-believing , of which its said , that in it he was Righteous . But 2d . in a word to put it out of doubt , and bring both instances clear ore his head again , ther 's no such thing mentioned in the least of Zachariahs sinning , much lesse of being punisht for his sin , for howbeit he did not so fully at first , as he did after , believe the Angells news of his having a Son ( it being very unlikely sith his wife and he both were very old ) and thereupon desired honestly a sign by which he might the more assuredly know and give credit to it , as others [ without sin ] desired in like cases the like before him , * yet is he neither blamed , nor threatned , nor lesse puisht ( as T. D. dreams ) with dumbnesse for not believing till he had a sign , as for a Sin : but his dumbnesse was given as an answer of his desire of a sign , and as a sign of the certainty of the thing , that he might the more undoubtedly believe it , Eccle. 1.18.19.20 . whereby shall I know this glad Tidings ( quoth Zachariah ) for we are old . Behold [ quoth the Angel ] thou shalt be dumb till the day that these things shall be performed since thou believest not my words , which shall be fulfilled in their season . There remains one Scripture more that T. D. urged against perfection , which he desired my answer to , at the propounding of which he sayes , I was silenced , and yet brings me in himself as answering to it in the very next words that I spake at all , whereby men may see how he makes a matter of nothing of it , to utter lies and to prove them to be lyes as soon as he has done . The Text is Eccles. 7.20 . there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not , the sum of my answer , which T. D. renders as raggedly as he can , so that men may not tell what to make of it , was this , viz. There are no dwellers upon earth that sin not , but there are some that have a bodily abode upon earth , whose dwelling is not on earth , but in Heaven , whose conversation or ( Politeuma ) or habitation , Mil. 3.20 . cheif businesse , being , abode and dwelling is in Heaven , whom all the inhabitants of the earth or earthly minded men , on all whom the day of the Lord comes as a snare , Luke 21. viz. the Beast and his worshippers , who are said to dwell on earth , Rev. 11.10 . do Blaspheme , Rev. 13 , 6. and these people of God in Heaven , who also are Heaven , where God himself dwells , Isa. 57. Isa 66. Rev. 18.20.19.1 . Sin not , as all they do ( wo to them therefore ) that are inhabitants of the earth , for the Devil is cast out of Heaven , and hath no place there , and is come down to the other in great wrath : But they that are in Heaven are on Mount-Sion , with the Lamb redeemed from the earth , and in their mouth is found no guile , for as the Lamb himself , who is their Saviour , is unspotted , doing no evill , so are they without fault before the Throne of God , Rev. 14.1.3.5 . which answer of mine which was also G.Ws. & is mine here again to T.D. so far was I then from using it as a meer evasion , as T. D. sayes he verily believes I then did in mine own Iudgment and intention : But T. D. not well knowing what to reply to it , replyes nothing at all to it in his Rejoinder ; but p. 7.2 . pamp . calls it absurd and not worth a further reply then what he gives , p : 13. 1 pamp . which is so jejune that I can find nothing in it but skin and bone : he tells us the Iust man being in Heaven in our sense , excludes not his local being here on earth . Rep. Nor do we say it does , though he there thinks we do think so ; but what of this ? we deny , not his bodily and local abode here on earth , & T.D. who can do no other then give us all our questions , cannot , and therefore doth nor deny but confesse it , that he hath a present being also in Heaven , and that 's as much as we need wish him to yeild to , as in order to the yeilding us our cause ; and if he should deny a true real being of the Sons of God in Heaven , while they are locally and bodily here on earth , we should force him to confesse it from Iohn 3.13 . where it s said of the Son of man ( mark ) in praesenti , that he is in Heaven , while yet he stood bodily on the earth : He tells us we run very low in this answer , but alas it is too high for him , who is on earth , with all his reason to reach any sound Reply to ; as ( in us ) seems to be ( without us ) and ( inward ) to be ( outward ) to him who lives not in Heaven within , but on earth without ; so , to him that stands ( as T.D. doth ) on his head , with his heals upwards , and his head down towards the Earth , where his feet and heels onely should be , as downward seems to be upward , so does upward to be downward : But so it seems to the great Whore that rides the Beast , or that Woman that 's cloathed in Scarlet , and for a time tramples the Holy City under feet , Rev. 17.4.11.2 . yet things seem no otherwise then they are to the Woman cloathed with the Sun , who hath her head Crowned with the Starrs , and all fading sublunary Glory , and the Moon it self under her feet , Rev. 12.1 . As to T. Ds. trifling reply to what R : H. urg'd from Heb , 12 : 23. where Paul sayes , the Saints were come to mount Sion the City of the living God , the New Ierusalem ( into which let T.D. esolve himself , whether any uncleannesse or defilement can enter , from Rev 21.7 . ) and to Myriards of Angels , and to the general Assembly and Church of the 1st being , whose Names are written in Heaven . And to God , and to Iesus , and to the Spirits of Just men perfected * ( with all whom let T. D. who sayes that place imparts not the perfection of any man on earth , Resolve himself whether one dram of darkness or uncleanness can enter into Communion , if 2. Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 . and 1 Iohn 1.3.4.5.6.7 . be true , much more so as to make one body with them , as T.D. Divines it doth ) as to , that I say , so far as it is fit to be replyed to , G.W. hath done it , whose reply stands unshaken by that feminine tempest or stood of impertinent words , wherewith T.D. who sayes much to as litle purpose , would seem to patch up a return , and what G : W : said in short the body of Christ is perfect , may be ventured among wise men to stand as it does , against T : D's little less then Blasphemous Counter-position , that the body of Christ is not perfect : for his particle ( yet ) whereby he mends that matter , saying , not ( yet ) perfect , because some that belong to it are yet unborn ; this helps him not a tittle , who holds with I : O. the Scripture to have bin of old from Moses a perfect Rule , and Canon ( I speak ad h●minem their own sense not mine ) whilst many books of it were yet not written , and so I shall vouchsafe it no more then so , and the rather because that reply of T : D : to G : W : was replyed to some months since , but that it was neglected to be printed by such as were intrusted to see it done , and whether it yet may or may not be printed before this of mine be out I cannot say . Unspeakably much more might be said both in disproof of such Toyes as our D●vines talk against it , by and in proof of that possibility of a perfect living without sin before death , then I shall here take notice of ; yet 3. or 4 , things that are upon me I am free to give some small bint of : T : D : tells us , God will have us excercis'd in that work of mortifying sin while we live , & therefore , lest we should have no more worke to do nor worlds to conquer , there must be no full conquest over the world , nor perfect mortification of the lust of it till we be dead , so some tell us , Gods Children would be proud , if he should not keep them down , corruption as well as affliction being a most effectual means to make ashamed , God will leave ( as he did once Caananites to excerise the Israelites , and he as Thorns in their sides ) some sins in his Saints unsubdued as long as they love , to humble and prove them and shew them what is in their hearts , and such like . Rep. But I trow where would pride it self be , which is none of the least sins if the Saints come by the Blood and Power of Christs Light and Grace , which only humbles , to be fully freed and cleansed from all sin and uncleannesse of flesh and spirit , and to perfect holiness in the fear of God ? will not pride it self then be brought down , as well as other sins , and Humility alone be Exalted ? Some tells us from 1 Kings 1 : 48. The man lives not that sins not . Rep : We say that ther 's no man that lives , who hath not sinned , and as Iohn sayes , he is a lyar that sayes otherwise of himself , but because men have sinned and have sin must they never be purg'd ? is there a necessity that they who now have it , and now sin must needs have it , and must needs sin till they dye ? and if they may cease from sinning ( as our Divines also , but that they forget themselves , tell us they may , yea must or dye for ever , every tree lying for ever as it falls , and there being no Purgatory after death ) I say if they may and must before they dye , is it then unpossible that they should ? and if they may ne'r so little before they dye , ( suppose a day , a week , a year ) leave sinning , may they not by the same power and light live without it , 2 : 3 : or many years before ? but that , as the plain truth is ) they are in love with it , and loath to part with it till it parts with them , and to take heed to that light and grace that is given of the Lord to lead them out of it , to repentance from it , and to learn them to deny it , and to live without it , Godly , Righteously , and soberly in this present world , in which neglect the hands of the evil doer are strengthned by our dirty dawbers , who tell them they must leave sin , all sin , little sins , and yet ( to go round again ) that they cannot possible leave all while they live ; So strengthening the hands of the wicked that he can't return from his wickedness , by such pleasing sing-songs and lullabies as these , not a just man uppon earth that does good and sins not , and the Saints have their infirmityes , and David himself was overtaken with Adultery and Murder , and yet stood accepted with God , and was , even when under the guilt of those gross sins , not in a condemned , but in a justified estate , and Prov : 29. who can say I have made my heart clean ? and such like : Not heeding that though none can ( nor do we assert any such thing that we have any sufficiency of our selves to good ) yet alsufficiency is in God and his grace is sufficient , so that God can , if men look to him in his light , make clean the heart , and man a young man in whom youthful lusts are strong , by the Power of God and , taking heed to his way by his word in his heart , may cleanse his way , and so some do , though they are but few , nor does ( Who can say I am clean from mine iniquity ? not one ) Exclude all from cleannesse , implying only ( as often such interogations do ) no otherwise then thus viz : that few can , for though an interogation affirmative of this sort ( for the most part ) concludes negatively , yet not alwayes universally so , but some are included in the affirmative both according to the Poets and the Prophets : Quis legit haec ? Per : so Isa. 53 : who believeth our Report ? vel duo vel neme , few or none : Adde to this these considerations in proof thereof : If sin be Christs Enemy in his Saints , which none denyes , then must it be , destroy'd in them before , not after death , for the last enemy that is to be destroyed is death . But the 1 st . is true , therefore this latter . Again the perfecting of the Saints is the very end of Christs Ministry to the Church-ward Eph. 4.11 , 12 , 13. which end it must accomplish in this life or not at all , for it ceases in that to come , as Scripture and prophecy and all such mediums do ( as I.O. confesses ) being accommodated presenti huic statui , to this present world onely Ex. 3. S. 39. and if it be not here attainable , and freedom from sin not possible to be accomplished , then ye make Christs Ministry as imperfect as your own ( absit blasphemia ) the perfection of every thing consisting in nulla alia re [ quoth I.O. Ex. 3. S. 24. ] no other thing then in its sufficiency to attain its end : And in every discipline that ( quoth he ) is to be counted imperfect , which sinem propositum suum assequi potis non est , is not of force to effect its propounded end . Yea not onely the 1 act of regeneration , which is all ye count as attainable here , but also the 2. Act or Consummation and perfection of it is attainable , and is the very end of the true spirituall Ministry of Christ , which is his gift and infallible , for the Text runs so concerning that Ministryes continuance here , which ceases after death , till we all come into the unity of the Faith and Knowledge of the Son of God i. e. to know him all alike , and to one perfect man , even to the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ : So that all that are truly born from above of water and the Spirit ( not Bastards , born of flesh into a talk of the new birth that yet know it not , ) into the divine nature of Christ , may come up into the measure of his stature , to be as he is , in whom is no sin , to walk as he walk'd in this world , 1 Ioh. 2. 6. 1 Ioh. 4.17 . or else the end of the Ministry is frustrated : And to say that God appoints a means to an end , no way attainable . I.O. Himself detests that ( as his principles are ) and so do all that hold that undenyable maxime , that Deus nil facit frustra . Again t is the end of the Scripture ( quoth I. O ) persicere omniae , to perfect All things pertaining to our salvation : Therefore perfect salvation from sin is here attainable , otherwise the Scripture is not perfect ( as I. O. sayes it is ) to its own end , sith it ceases in the world to come ( as he confesses also ) therefore though he contradict himselfe so as to say the Scripture obtains not its end here , yet if his saying that it does obtain its end , and its end is saving the soul , be true this ( ad hominem ) is an Argument out of his own mouth sufficient to evince , to the stoppoing of it , a possibility of being saved from sin in this life . Again , they , that walk not after the flesh , and fulfill not the lusts of it , sin not , for sin is the fruit and effect of the lust , which must conceive , be consented and yielded to , before sin can be brought forth Iam. 1.14.15 . a man must be led away of his own lust before he sins . But there be some that walk not after the flesh , that fulfil not the lust of it . Yea they that are in Christ Jesus to whom is no condemnation ( which condemnation by the Law is where ever sin is , which is the transgression of the Law : ) Rom. 8.1 . yea more expressely they that are in Christ , are new creatures , the old things , the old man and his deeds , 2 Cor. 5. Rom. 6. Eph. 4. Which is renewed after the Image of him , who created him in righteousness and holyness of truth , not a meer imputed one , a meer computed one , an imaginary one , a sound of words , a talk , not a shadowy one , not a shew of holinesse where it is not substantially , inherently indeed , and in truth , but a sinning under the name of Saints : Yea more expressely yet , from Rom. 8. If Christ be in in you the body is dead because of sin , and Rom. 6. how shall we that are dead to sin , live any longer therein , such there are in whom Christ is , and these are dead to sin , and those that are dead to it , live not in it , it is mortified in such in facto esse , not in fieri only i.e. mortifying ever as long as we live , yet never dead till they be dead , as our dead Divines deliver : Ye most expressely of all Gal. 5. they that are Christs ( and some are his though the pleaders for sin and the Devils dwelling in them till they dy are none of his ) have ( in praeterito ) crucified the flesh , not with the actions of it onely , but also with the affections and lusts thereof : And though there is a time of dayly dying ( I dyday●y saith Paul , 1 Cor. 15. ( in the light , which is the crosse of Christ to the ca●nailm●nd ) to the world and the lust of it , which passeth away before him that doth the will of God , and abideth eve● : Yet there is a time of being crucified to the world with Christ and the world unto such , which Paul , witnessed 2 Cor. 12. And howbeit 14. yeares before that , Paul hast a Thorn in the flesh , a Messenger of Satan to buffet him , least through many Revelations he should be exalted above measure , whence the Ministers of the night and darknesse argue ( a ma●●i ad m●nus ) that Paul sinned while he liv'd , much more must others , not heeding that his Thorn was but a Temptation to prevent his transgression and therefore no● a transgression of itself ( for Christ was tempted , yet never sinned ) and beside though it lay haunting and attempting him , and was not soon removed , yet on his prayer that grace was given , which was sufficient to support him under it . so that he fell not by it , yet if it had proved a transgression , 't would not have proved him that sine'd 14. yeares ago to have been a sinner now , much lesse to have sinned so long as he lived , and so to have been [ an as for example ] for all seeming Saints to argue from , that they may safely and must unavoidably continue sinning to their dying day . Therefore salvation from sin is attainable in this life : Yea this very conclusion here inferr'd , is in plain termes asserted by Peter of the Saints , 1 Pet. 1. of whom he sayes , that they received the end of their faith , the salvation of their souls , which salvation ( I say till ) is from the sin ( which slayes and separates it from God ) or else from nothing . Moreover such as walke after the Spirit , and in the light , and are led thereby , these sin not , nor do the deeds of darknesse , which are sin For the light and Spirit lead none into sin : But there be such as walk in the light , in the day , in which if a man walk , saith John , he stumbles not , 1 Ioh. Much lesse falls● : There be some that walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit , and are led by the Spirit , and those that are led by it are not under the Law [ the lash of which they would be under , as all sinners are , if they transgressed it ] but under grace . And these are the Sons of God , those that are born of God , whom the world knowes not 1 Ioh. 1 , 2 , 3. for they are his hidden ones , Psal. 83. against whom they take crafty councel , as against an impure generation , though they purify themselves even as Christ himselfe is pure , whilst such as know neither the Sons of God , nor whose Sons themselves are while they sin , are that generation that 's pure in their own eyes , though not yet washed from their filthiness , nor meaning to be so here . Who ever walkes after the Spirit , and no more after the flesh and lusts of it [ at it seems by that very Text Rom. 8. some do , to whom alone there 's no condemnation because no sin , for they are in Christ & so out of the transgression , in the light , out of the darknesse , in but one of which a man can be at one time ] such sin not , who ever they be , unless T.D. I.O. and the whole Gang of blind guides , who tell people that none but that person that Christ appeared in a Ierusalem , ever were , shall or can be fu●ly freed from sinning in this world , will [ being ●ore shooes , in that sink of sottishness ] run ore boots too , so as to say the Light and Spirit leads such , as follow and walk after it , into lust and sin Therefore there are some that live without sinning . And this is one infallible Argument from the very letter it self ( if it were not become now as a Book sealed to the learned lookers into it that freedom from sin was attainable by the power of Christs light , and the grace of God ( which alone even we say is sufficient to that end ) and was attained by Paul and others then , and therefore may be now , even in this life , in that Pan● declares concerning Law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Iesus ( the head from whence , as the holy ointment , it runs down to the Skirts of the Garment , and as the unction 1 Ioh. 2. abides in his body teaching all things , ) it had made him free from the law of sin and death , of which Law of sin and death he relates in that 7. Chapter that he was once wretched by reason of its carrying him captive to it self , of its motions of sin working in him , and bringing forth fruit in him unto death , of its warring in his members against the Light or Law of God in his mind , by which he had the knowledge of sin in the very lust of it , as that he should not covet nor lust to envy , anger , uncleanness , &c. Which the Scribes and Pharises Mat. 5. and Paul himself ( while a Pharisee ) looking into the l●tter without only [ as he did from a child ] knew not till he turn'd to the light within and came to the Law in the Spirit , till he and it came to look each other in the face ; from which time , and not from his looking into the letter he saw the Law in the spirituality , holinesse , righteousness and goodnesse 〈◊〉 , and [ for all his former formality and strict pretence to unrighteousness & profession of a letter ad extra ] his own meer naughtinesse and carnality , as that of one that was still sold under sin and a committer of it , in the sight of God from whose wrath that old drosty , dunghilly righteousnesse of his own Phil. 3. which was not Christs [ as T. D. blasphemously belyes it to be , p. 22. 1. Pamp. ] could not deliver him , till he witness'd himselfe cloth'd with another , even that righteousness which is of God by faith in Christ , not imputed onely , but imparted also to the true sanctification , as well as justification of every one that believeth , which passages nevertheless of that 7th chap. to the Romans and that 12. of his 2d . Ep. to the Corinthians : our senseless Seers have made , among others , one of their main common places from whence to prove the very contrary , even that there is no such freedom from sin , while in the body ; but that of necessity , it must be acted by the Saints themselves , while they breath upon this outward earth : For [ say they ] if Paul complained of a body of sin and death while he liv'd , and how he was sold under sin , and carryed captive to the Law of it , and of the Law of sin wa●ring in his members against the Law in his mind , so that he could not do the good he should , but when he would do good , evill was present with him , and also of a Thorne in his flesh , a Messenger of Satan to buffet him [ as he does 2 Cor. 1 , 2 , 3. &c. ] and all this after his conversion to his dying day : Then much lesse can any other Saints expect to be set so free from sin , by what power soever in this life , as to live and not sin , and such like ! But Paul did so , therefore what man can do otherwise ? Who can ever live and not sin ? Thus they argue against Qua. as a damnable sort of Hereticks , that deliver a doctrine of Devils , because they hold out , as attainable , that hellish thing , as they count it , call'd holiness , and such freedom from sin in this life , so as not to commit iniquity any more ; not considering all this while that Paul in those terms speakes what he once was , [ yea even after his conversion to the light ] till sin was wholly subdued , by the light condemning it in his flesh and bringing forth in him judgement over it into victory , and not of what he was at the writing thereof , in which time he sayes the Law of the Spirit had made him free from that Law of sin : Not yet heeding at all that the Thorn in the flesh was not a transgression , but a temptation , with which God exercised him , that he might shew the sufficiency of his own grace to support and keep him from transgression , even from that sin of being exalted above measure , and that no lesse then 14. years before he wrote this , and not just then when , or while he wrote it , much lesse a transgression that remain'd unmortified in him till his dying day . One argument more I shall urge from I : O's : own book thus viz : If perfect Salvation from sin be the proper end of the Scripture , and it be perfect to that its end , and does perfect it , and yet does what it does in this present world [ or nowhere ] to which it is accomodated only , and ceases to do ought into the world to come , then that perfect Salvation must be wrought out by it , or here , or no where at all : But all the former are asserted abundantly ore and ore again as truth , by I : O : himself , Ex : 3 : 5 : 28 : 22 : Therefore the conclusion is consequently true that its either here or no where : Again they all say in opposition to the Pope , ther 's no Purgatory in the world to come , therefore it must be here or no where , unlesse they know any other world between this present world & that which is to come , which middle world though I have heard some talk of a world in the Moon , I am not yet acquainted with . There be some therefore that sin not , in whom the Law is not transgrest , but sin condemn'd and judged in their flesh , so that the Righteousnes of the Law by Christs Power is fulfild in them , and they walk not after the the flesh but after the Spirit , which is the end of Gods sending his Son in the likenesse of sinful flesh , and of his sending out his light into mens hearts , even that Law of the Spirit of Life which is in himself , viz : to make men free from that law of sin and death , which sometimes they obeyed to condemnation , and to condemn sin in the flesh , and out of it also by his Iudgment brought forth into victory over it , that his Righteousness might be Revealed , and the Righteousness of the Law , which he fulfilled in himself , might be [ by him ] fulfilled [ in us ] also : Many more passages truly there are in T : D's : and I : O's : books [ besides these many that have bin spoken to ] some of which are worth no more [ being but confusion ] then confutation , and some of which also are not worth so much , and therefore I shall draw to an end [ making many books and much writing being wearisom ] but by these men maybe admonished what a meer Fallible kind of guidance they must expect from their University Admired leaders , while they hate the Light of God in their own hearts , and hang only on their lying lips for their learning the plainSoul-saving Truth of Christ , FINIS . AN ADDITIONALL APPENDIX To the Book Entituled Rusticus ad Academicos ; OR , The Country correcting the Clergy . WHEREIN In somewhat a smaller Compasse , and closer Circumference then that of the Volume it alludes to , some few of those Rabbinical Riddles , which yet are obvious enough in the other , to any observant Reader , are rendred more conspicuous to the observation of all ; To the end that all that have Eyes may see , and a Heart may understand , How the Scribes and School-men are unskild in the Scriptures , How the Sun is set upon the Seers , How it's night to the Diviners that they cannot divine ; How the Vision of all is become unto them as a Book sealed ; How blindnesse has befallen the Babel-Builders ; How the Race of the ( once Reverenced and Renowned ) Rabbies is wrap't up in Rounds , in their ( so much respected ) writings against the Light ; How the Doctors are doting on a Divinity of their own ; The Teachers and Text-men tangled in their own talkings about their Text , and the Priests pull'd down by themselves in their own Prate pretensively for i.e. Pro Scripturis but in very deed against both the very Text , and the very Truth it talks on ; How among the Gameliels in general , but more particularly among those four choice ones T. Danson , I. Owen , R. Baxter , I. Tombs , ( who , as Representatives of the rest , whose sense they speak , and in whose behalfe they reason , are reckoned with in the bigger Book abovesaid ) ( Ishmael-like Every mans hand is against every man , and each mans hand against himselfe , R.B.I.T. sometimes confuting I. O and T.D. and these foure sometimes confounding and contradicting each man himself ; and in a word dancing the Rounds together in the dark , tracing too and fro , crossing and capering up & down , in & out , and sometimes round about , in the Wood of their own wonted wisdom , in the clouds of their self-created confusion about sundry Doctrines , they concurre in together ( by the ears ) against the Quakers . Contradictionibus scatet Spiritus Enthusiasticus ; Vnusquisque asslatum habet , ita faedè et apertè inter se aspiritu immundo committuntur ut vix duo eorum in eadem doctrinâ conveniant ; sed mirè digladiantes adversas et contrarias sententias quotidie venditant , etiam in Nomine Dei se aliquotiès mutuò devovent et execrantur , Itaque ; Nihil Certi ab i● expectare licet . The Enthusiastical spirit flows with Contradictions ; So fowlly & apparently are they whifled by the evil spirit among themselves , that scarce two of them can agree in one Doctrine , but clashing wonderfully , they daily vent opposite and contrary opinions , & often they even curse one another in the name of God , therefore there 's nothing certain to be expected from them ; Quoth Iohn Owen , Exer : 3. Sect : 34. Quid rides ( O sacerdos ? de te fabula narratur . In Homine Domini , ac in Nomine Domini ( saith the Proverb ) Incipit Omne malum . By S. Fisher. London , Printed for Robert Wilson , 1660. AN ADDITIONALL APPENDIX , & c - THat flood of Follies and Absurdities , that ( loud of Confusions and self - Contradictions , which diffuses and shatters it self up and down by plats in sundry showers thorowout the sun dry Pages of these four mens Books , Every eye that reads them ( as they lye at a distance in theirs , and in mine , by which theirs is more largely answered ) may possibly not set sight on them easily : Therefore I shall cull some few of them only out ( for the whole number passes my skill to cast account of ) and clap them a little closer together ; Not so much to shame them as to honour the Truth , which they would shame ; That they may be the more ready to be read , and apparent to the view of every ordinary Reader ; That any ( save such as seeing will not see ) may see the Sword of the Lord already laid on the Arm and Right-eye of the Idol-Shepheard ; To the drying up of the one and the darkning of the other ; For perverting the right way of the Lord , so that he not only seeth not the Sun of Righteousnesse , which he loves not that it should shine ( as Elimas of old did not , for his seeking to turn away the Governor from hearing the Faith , Acts 13.10 , 11 , 13. ) nor yet the Moon of so much as common sense and reason , but groaps about with him in the mist of his own muddy mind , so as to need some to lead him by the hand , and to shew him ( in answer to his Question 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) whereabouts he is , and what a shaking , sandy ground he stands on . Self-Contradictions , Confusions , and Rounds about Iustification . 1. As to the Doctrine of Iustification by Christ and his Righteousnesse within us . 1. They tell us one while , that the 3. Question debated on at Sandwich , and held in the affirmative by the Quakers , was stated in these terms . Whether [ Our ] Good works are the meritorious cause of Our Iustification ? which is a Lye with a witness , witnesse T.D. who tells it , P. 14. of his first Pamphlet . Otherwhiles ( to go round again ) leaving out the Term [ Our ] which quite alters the state of the Question , and makes it altogether another , This Truth is told us ; viz : That the Terms of the 3. Question were , Whether Good works be the meritorious cause of our Iustification ? which was expressely affirmed by the Qua : Witnesse Hen : Oxenden Iohn Boys Esquires ; Mr. Nath : Barry , Mr. Thomas Seyliard , Mr. Char ; Nicolls Ministers , a few ( of very many ) Witnesses ( quoth T.D. in his Epist : to the Reader ) of the Terms of the Questions agreed to by the Qua : who will free me ( and how well they free him let all the world judge ) from the suspition of a partial Relator ; Witnesse also T.D. himself , who ( if it be the same T.D. ( as no doubt it is ) who wrote both that Book and the Epistle , and Narrative thereto annexed ) in p. 58. of the self-same Book to the Contradicting and Confounding of himselfe in the former Tale , together with those his own Witnesses , tells all that Truth that is last related . 2. They tell us one while ( that is , when we not only assert it , but evince it from the Rule of contraries ) that its rank Popery to say , Good works deserve Iustification . Otherwhiles ( that is , when to the contradiction of themselves , they assert and evince the same from the same Rule ) then ( to go round again ) it 's no Popery ; Witnesse T.D. who in p. 14. of his 1. Pamphlet , sayes S.F. shews himself a rank Papist indeed , in so arguing , yet p. 15. ( in proof of himselfe to be a good Protestant , & no Papist ) allows himself so to argue ; viz : Evill works , which are the violation of the Law , deserve damnation ; Ergo Good works which are the fulfilling of the Law , deserve salvation [ adding ] That he knows no good works such ▪ but Christs ; To which I answer , Nor do I know any good works such , but Christs ; [ and I adde ] I own all Good works such , that are Christs , and there T.D. dissents , in not owning all Christs own Good works such , but some only ( namely such as he did at Ierusalem ) and some , even of Christs own Good works ( as namely , all such as he works in his Saints , who works all their good works in them Isa ; 26.12 . ) as no better then dung , losse , and filthy rags ; Witnesse his blind blending of these two distinct businesses into one and the same ; viz : The righteousnesse wrought by men without Christ ; and the righteousnesse wrought in men by Christ ; or Our good works , alias Mans own righteousnesse , wrought only by men in their own wills , wisdome strength , according to their thoughts , imaginations , conceits , traditions , &c. without Christs Light and Spirit ( which is that only the Spirit calls Ours , that is as an unclean thing , as filthy rags , Isa : 64.4 . which God ( speaking to Israel , that being ignorant of Gods righteousnesse , went about to establish their own , Rom : 10.3 . ) calls Thy righteousnesse thy works , which cannot profit nor deliver ; Isa : 57.12 , 13. And which Paul , Phil. 3.9 . stiles his own righteousnesse which was of the Law , as in opposition to that of God and Christ ) And those good works of Christ in our persons , in performing whereof , the righteousnesse of the Law is said ( though by Christs Power only ) to be fulfilled in us , Rom : 8.4 . Or that righteousnesse which is , though in the Saints , yet of God alone through their faith in Christ Iesus the Light , Phil : 3.9 . For these two Righteousnesses , the one whereof who is not blind may see to be only mans own , which is worse then naught , and avails not , The other only Christs own , which must be of infinite worth , and desert to justifie ( as T.D. also to the further confounding of himselfe , truly confesses ; p. 15.1 . Pam : ) from the dignity of the person or subject ( i.e. Christ in us ) by whom it 's performed , T.D. confounds together , both into one and the self same , and consequently concludes himself unavoidably to be ( respectively ) both a Self Contradictor , and ( which is worse ) a most abominable Blasphemer ; For if the Righteousnesse and Obedience that is by Christs Power performed in his Saints Persons , be both Christs own , and yet mans own also . * Then ( being one and the same individual righteousnesse ) it must have a mutual participation of the same Properties and Denominations , respectively , so that if Christs own righteousnesse may be said to be of worth and desert to Salvation ( as it truly is by T. D. himselfe then ● mans , Pauls , the Saints own righteousnesse ( which T.D. sayes was Christs , received from Christ , wrought by Christ ) must be consequently meritorius also , and that 's a piece of rank Popery , and wretched Foppery of T.Ds. own broaching ( who yet would Father it upon the Qua : ) which the Qua : ( who own all mans own righteousnesse to be ( as the Scripture sayes of it ) unclean , dung , losse , and filthy rags , and utterly unprofitable ) do as utterly abhorre , and so T.D. makes himselfe a Merit Monger , with a witnesse , such as never yet was found among the Qua : That dying-Qua : at Dover himself , whom T.D. belyes in that particular , not excepted . And again , If Mans , Pauls , the Saints own righteousnesse , may be said ( as it truly is , Isa : 57.12 , 13. ( 64.4 . Phil. 3.8 . ) to be unprofitable , unclean , dung , losse and filthy rags , then the self same which Paul and other Saints ( their own righteousnesse being no other then Christs , then what they receive from him , and he works in them ( as T.D. sayes ) for their Sanctification some of Christs own righteousnesse , Yea even that too which serves for the Saints sanctification , and to make the Saints meet for that possession , where ●no unclean thing must enter , * must be unprofitable , unclean , dung , losse and filthy rags , which is no lesse then point blank blasphemy : yea in expresse terms , p. 23. I deny our justification by Christ in us quoth he ) by that righteousnesse in us whereof Christ is the Author ; as if that Christ in us , and that righteousnesse of his in us , which is the same with that without us , deserved nothing . 3. Moreover in saying there are two Righteousnesses of Christ , when as the Righteousness of Christ ( whether in himself , or in his Saints ) is but one , he crouds confusion upon confusion , in the eye of every clear considerer of his inconsiderable stuff ; which cannot but see that what God joyns together as one , this he separates and puts asunder ; what is truly one ; and undivided as Christ and his Righteousnesse is ) this he divides , and distinguishes into two righteousnesses ; 2 Things meant by that one name of Christ , his Person and his Operations in us ; The latter whereof he denys for righteousness to justification : But what things are truly and distinctly two , and ought accordingly to be , and by the Lord are divided , separated and put asunder as Mans , Pauls the Iewes own righteousnesse , and that righteousnesse which is of God by faith in Christ , received from , and wrought by Christ in his Saints , which the Scripture Rom : 10 Phil. 3. opposes and speaks of as in contradistinction each to other ) These two T.D. and his Brother Builders whose work it is to build Babel or confusion , as their reward is the division of their tongues confound and jumble both together into one . They tell us one while that truth Christ tells his Disciples , Matth. 5. That except our righteousnesse exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees , ( whose lives yet ( ad extra ) as to all outward appearance , were as exact , as they were strict in many Religious observations we shall in no case enter into the Kingdom . Whereby they intimate we must live , walk , and obey Gods Holy Truth and will , though by Christs assistance , yet personally & more spiritually then they ; Yea , they tell us what the Gospel requires from us ( though it is to be done by Christ in and for us ) is a more total abstinence from evil , and even lusting to it then the Law , and so the Gospel to call for more full self-denyall then the Law , if ere we live ; The one saying Thou shalt not commit adultery ; the other , Thou shalt not lust ; the one , Thou shalt not steak the other , Thou shalt not covet ; the one , Forswear not thy self , the other , swear not all ; the one , thou shalt not kill , the other , Thou shalt not be angry without cause . Otherwhiles ( to go round again ) They make the Law require more full and exact obedience to God , then the Gospel ; The Law gives not life without perfect obedience ( quoth T.D. ) The Gospel gives life upon imperfect obedience . 4. Again , They tell us one while ( that is , when they preach to their people and see no Quakers among them ) the same truths the Scriptures tell us concerning God , that He is of purer eyes then to behold the least iniquity , that God , John 9.31 . Accepts not , owns not , hears not sinners , says to such as work it , and depart not from iniquity ; Depart from me all ye workers of iniquity , I know not whence ye are , Matt : 7.22 . Luke 13.27 . And though forgiving iniquity to the penitent , when they confesse and forsake sin , yet by no means clearing the guilty , while they lye in impaenitency under sin , Exod 34.7 . That if the heart condemn , God in greater then it , and knows all , and what the Light in the conscience speaks in way of that self-judgment , that 's placed in us , and seconds it to justification or condemnation , accusation or execusation , there needs no witnesse to convince a man ( quoth I.O. p : 43.45 . that it speaks it from God , it discovers it's Author from whom it is , & in whose name it speaks ; So that if that ( as it does every sinner holds guilty , God , whose mind it speaks holds not guiltlesse ; Yea , That he who justifies the wicked , & condemns the just , even they both are abomination to the Lord , as Pro : 17.15 . and much more of that sort ; i : e : when the Qua : tell the same truths to turn men from all sin , which is transgression or iniquity [ for not the least sin is equity that I know of ] then , in opposition to the Qua : they wheel about , And Otherwhiles , As if God were another manner of God ; Who , because its impossible by the power of his own grace to be fully freed , and perfectly purged from all sin here , will give indulgency to his sinning Saints ( to go round again ) They tell us other tales of him , whereby ( if Pro : 17.15 . be true ) they represent him as doing that , in the doing of which , he must be an abomination to himselfe ; viz : 1. That he condemns the just , witnesse T.D. who tells us , that here the best works , and personal performances of Beleevers and Saints themselves are imperfect , sin , iniquity , dung , losse , unclean filthy rags ( though done by Christ in them ) And yet to go round again ) That God accepts , alias , is well-pleased , delights , and takes pleasure in both these Beleevers and their wicked works ; Witnesse the Supralapsarian . Predestination Preachers , who represent God as loving of few only as Iacob , hating most men personally with Esau qua sic ) as men , the creatures of his own Creation , to shew his wrath , power , soveraignty over them , as the Potter over the Clay of the same lump ( the Mistery of which matters of Iacob and Esau , their meer mans wisdom sees no more into , then a Moles eye into a Milstone ) not onely before they had done either , but without reference to either good or evil foreseen to be done in time by either Adam ( their supposed Representative ) or themselves ; and the Sublapsarians also , who represent God as ( by Praeterition at least ) rejecting most on the Account meerly of Adams single act , without a respect to any personall actions of their own ; The least and best of which two do ( doctrinally ) make God a Condemner for ever of Millions of just innocents ; yea , very infants ( as they blush not to infer ) for one fault of their Father Adam , for whose only eating the sowr Grapes , all the childrens teeth must be set on edge , contrary to what God sayes now , who will have that Proverb used no more , but sayes as the soul that sinneth shall dye for his own , so every man only for his own iniquity , and not the son for the fathers , any more then the father for the sons . 2. That he condemns not , but clears the very guilty & justifies the very wicked and ungodly , & that not from for the Qua : know that he justifies many ungodly Ones from their ungodlinesse , they repenting , not resisting his Spirit by which he would purg them , but giving up to become the Godly whom only he hath chosen Ps. 4. ) but even in the most wicked and ungodly Actions , and even whilest under the guilt of most abominable Transgressions , so wearying the Lord , whom they speak well of sometimes as a God of True-judgment , with their evill words of him at other times , when they say , with the wicked Priests of whom God by Malachi complains ch : 2.17 . of such as do evil that they are good in the sight of the Lord , and he delighteth in them , or where is the God of judgement ? as if he who changes not and said of old Shall I count them pure , &c. Mic : 6.11 . did change and become another kind of God at one time , then he is at another viz : to count men righteous , even while such treasures of wickednesse are in the house of their hearts , as render them no lesse then wicked , scanty , and abominable , and to count men as I know not that ever he did ) pure , with their wicked ballances , & with their bag of deceitful weights , while they are full of violence , and speak lyes , and their tongue is deceitful in their mouths ; Witnesse not only all other his fellow Pillow-sowers under their arms , and Soothers up of sinners in their sins , and Daubers of Evill-doers with the smooth untempered Morter of their Peace , peace , when there is no peace ( saith my God ) unto the wicked ; but T.D. himself above all the rest , who p. 38. Pam : 1. not only sayes , but still stands to it , and owns it or'e and or'e again , as grosse as it is , and Iustifies it for truth , in his Reply to R. H. who charges it on him [ Justly ] as a grosse absurdity , which I have above also more at large replyed to that David , even when he was guilty ( mark that ) of adultery and murder ( such sins as for which the Scripture , when he lay impenitent under them , denotes and excepts him as a man not upright , a despiser of God and his Commandemenes , A doer of evil in his sight , 2 Sam : 12. whom God also had not mercy on , but did both condemn and severely judge with no lesse then Hellish horrors for his filth & blood-guiltinesse , till he had repented for it , and was throwly purged from it , Psalm 51. ) was not in a condemned , but in a justified estate . So that the sum of T.D. and those Doctors Doctrine that side with him therein , is this ; viz : ( to begin the dance right ) David while he commited adultery and murder , not repenting , was guilty before God , and consequently not just , nor justified , but condemned , for whom God holds not guiltlesse , but guilty , they are not justified , accepted , acquitted , absolved , approved ; but , which is all one , accused , reproved , condemned in his sight ; Yet [ to go round again ] David while he committed adultery and murder , [ not yet repenting ] was not guilty before God , but held guiltlesse , not condemned , nor reprobated , or reproved , but cleared , acquitted , absolved , excused , approved ; For between the two slates of guilty and not guilty , non datur medium . Contradictions , Confusions , and Rounds about Liberty of Conscience . II. As to the Doctrine for Liberty of Conscience , and against persecution for cause of Conscience in matters of Religion . One while they tell the world the doctrine and practice of rigid imposing upon any sub penâ , or persecuting any tender Consciences for beleeving , and living according to their conviction , or denying to beleeve or live contrary thereunto , is a Bloody Tenet , a way to make more hypocrites , that for fear will conform to what they beleeve not to be truth , then true Christians , an evident note of a false Church , and Antichristian Ministry that is degenerate and apostatized from the true pure Primitive Church of Christ , which never did compel any by force and violence to be Christians , but rather suffered all sorts of sorrowes , and bare all manner of abuses from the whole world of false Worshippers , whether Heathens or Nominal Christians , barely for confessing to the truth of Christ , and testifying against the evil lives of all Christs enemies , whether such as hated the very outward name of Christ , or such as named his Name , and yet departed not from iniquity ; and were every where cursed , yet blessed the cursers of them , prayed for such as persecuted them , intreated those that desamed and ill-intreated them , and were patient & silent , when reviled and buffeted , beaten , banished as Vagabonds ( because for truths sake they often left their own Homes and had no certain dwelling place ) as seditious , tumultuous , disturbers of the peace because they peaceably went into Synagogues to reason and preach the Gospel of peace ) as turners of the world upside down , because they sought to change men from their evill manners , foolish customs , vain inventions , and wicked wayes , that were abominable to God , and to bring them to repentance from their dead works and worships , in which their souls could never live , to worship the living God , who is a Spirit , and not tyed to places , in Spirit and in truth in the inner parts , and to turn all men from the darknesse wherein they lived in the world without , to the Light of Christ within themselves , and from the power of Satan unto God. Sometimes I say ) our great Gamaliels not only grant these things , but also give them out for truth to the Civill Powers of the Earth , most especially then and that with no small greedinesse , when the Clergy of one kind feel themselves begin to be griped under the greedy clutches of the Clergy of another colour , when they are likely to be imposed upon by others , and to be clapped down under hatches by the Clerical cruelties of each other respectively ; As for example , where ever the Papal , or Roman , or else the Presbiterian Primacy keeps the Keys , & spreads their Black Eagles clams over all others , & hath the power of permitting or poenal imposing , there the Prelatick Pastoralty pleads his priviledge to have the liberty of his Liturgy ( he behaving himselfe no otherwise then peaceably ) among them . Where the Episcopal Priesthood holds his Hierarchy , and is Supream there , as the Papal would willingly have his liberty ( and I blame none , neither Iews , Turks , nor Heathens for desiring the like , to walk every one in the Name of his God , Mich ; 4. ) Soth that Right-rigid Scottish Presbiterian Race , and that Mongrill seed of loose IndependentPresbiters , are more loud for liberty then any other sort of Sectaries ( so called ) whatsoever , who do all no lesse rationally then they [ they demeaning themselves peaceably ( as the very Principle of the Quakers binds them to do to all men ) require each the peaceable enjoyment of his Religion , Church-Ministry , fellowship , faith and way of Worship under them ; When the Rabbies are ready to be Ridden one by another ( witnesse the Outcries once of New-England against Old , when under the heat of far lesse Persecution from the Bishops , then they have acted since themselves . Old England it self was too hot to hold them , also the present pleadings , not only for their Directorian Liberties , but ( Turpe et miserabile ) their very Livings , Tythes , Preferments , and their Places , now the Common Prayer Book Priesthood , whom they unhorsed , hath his foot in the Stirrup again , and may not unlikely push the Presbiter besides the Saddle ) then , Oh then , what Hue and Cry against the bloody Tenet of Persecution , and grievous groans for this desire of all Nations and People , Liberty of Conscience , Liberty of Conscience , do we dayly hear from Smectimnuus his own , as well as others mouthes . Otherwhiles again , yea ever when the Clergy of any one colour , hath by either craft or conquest catcht the Keyes of the Kingdome , and atchieved the Holy chaire , they straightway clap their cruell clawes upon them , to the keeping down by force of Armes more then Arguments all Liberty for any consciences but their own . Then ( to go round again ) come let us sing a new Song , Behold cry the Counsellers of Egypt , the People of the children of Israell are more &c. Exod. 1.9 , 10 , 11. As Pharoah said unto his people , Behold , the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier then we . Come on , let us deal wisely with them , lest they multiply , and it come to passe , that when there falls out any war , they joyn also unto our enemies , and fight against us , and so get them up out of the Land. Therefore they did set over them Taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens , and they built for Pharoah Treasure cities , Pithom and Raamses . Then they set Taskmasters . Then say the Sanballats and Tobiasses , the Ammonites and Ashdodite , as they Neh. 4.1 , 2 , 7 , 8 , 11. But it came to passe that when Sanballat heard that we builded the wall , he was wroth and took great indignation , and mocked the Iews . And he spake before his brethren , and the army of Samaria , and said , What do these feeble Iews ? will they fortifie themselves ? will they sacrifice ? will they make an end in a day ? will they revive the stones out of the heaps of rubbish which are burnt ? But it came to passe that when Sanballat , and Tobiah , and the Arabians , and the Ammonites , and the Ashdodites heard that the walls of Ierusalem were made up , and that the breaches began to be stopped , then they were very wroth , And conspired all of them together , to come , and to fight against Ierusalem , and to hinder it . And our adversaries said , they shall not know , neither see , till we come in the midst among them , and slay them , and cause the work to cease . Then call they out for the help of Prisons , and punishments , cruel mockings and scourgings , Pillorings , gaggings , draggings before Rulers , accusations to Magistrates , condemnings at Iudgement-seats , cutting off ears , slitting noses , fines , confiscations , stockings , & stonings , beatings , buffetings , brandings , Borings , Banishings , Hangings , Burnings , as men no more fit to live among men nor on the earth , of such as conforme not to their conceits , as fall not down before what ever Golden Image they set up ; then the Priests and Prophets like those Mic. 3. that cryed Peace , Peace , begin to bite with their Teeth , and to prepare War against all whose consciences cannot own them as their own and Christs Ministers , so as to put into their Mouths , then away with all such fellowes from their Families to Courts and Consistoryes , holes and dungeons , haile them from their houses , tear them and theirs to pieces for our Tithes , spoile and make havock of their Goods , let their Relations perish and beg their bread , let their children be fatherlesse and their wives widows ; This and the like Divinity is divined out from among the Divines , to the contradicting of themselves as to that doctrine of liberty of conscience , they were most devoted to , while they remain sufferers under one another ; Witnesse ( as I said ) the sad sufferings of several of Truths truest friends , not only to bloody whippings , beatings , banishments , and bonds , but also to the Death of their bodyes by hanging in New-England of late , who had , not long since , fled out of Old-England for their conscience sake , and for fear ( comparatively to their own fearful fleaings of Christs flock ) of but a few Flea-bitings by the Bishops , witnesse also what I. O. himself , an High-Priest who soon forgot that ere he was Clark , not only did in his Vicechancellorship , but also would have had done , had he had his own will , who when by his loudnesse for it , he had got not only a liberty for his conscience , to very loosenesse and licentiousnesse , but also a large livelihood for his own carkasse , not only many other wayes abused the Qua : who disturbed nothing but that in every one that will be destroyed ; but also in the place aforesaid , Exer : 3. S. 39. bespeaks the whole world on behalfe of that innocent people , for nothing but teaching that innocent doctrine of freedom from all sin , & perfecting holinesse in this life ( which T.D. and T. Rumsy also wish as well to , as to any doctrine of dev●ls . by which name they also call it ) to this tune , Fanaticos non esse perfectos testimonio sunt illorum menda●ia , fraudes , scelera , hypocrisis ; iis vero qui immunes se esse ab his omnibus aliisque pe●catis vel levissimis impudenter gloriantur , punitiones et incarcerationes , quas Akatastasia sua sibi ultro accersunt , esse debeant ; That the Qua : are not perfect their lyes , frauds , hainous crimes and hypocrisies do testifie to us , but to them who impudently glory ( so indeed the Qua : do not but assert that freedom attainable ) that they are free from all these and other sins , even the least the more purity it seemsmen come to the more to be punisht with him punishments and Prisons , which by their tumultuousnesse ( such as that of Paul and other Apostles , 2 Cor. 7. were proved to be Christs Ministers by ) they voluntarily pull on themselves ( as the Saints and Christ ever did by exposing themselves to their malice for mens souls sakes ought to be ; for which wickednesse of working & wishing that evil to others , which they would not , when they were under others willingly have done to theselves , hath the Lord who avengeth the cause of his poor people , who had rather suffer persecution ever , then either act it themselves , or wish that any for meer conscience ( though blinded ) should suffer by it ; yea God , who judgeth all truly according to their own false judgement of others , justly meteth out to that hypocriticall generation , that with Capernaum clim'b up to Heaven in Forms and fair words , and fine shews , but are now brought down to Hell , the same measure they meted to his people , and will I doubt not in due time ( except they yet repent ) do the like to those holy hypocrites of New-England : And let those Priests , who have now the preheminence , take heed of pushing too hard against the pricks , is my desire to them for their own souls , who are every way concerned to be wary of that wonted way of wearing out , wearying and worrying of Christs little flock for not feeding and cloathing , with their Fleeces , such Shepheards , as do not feed them : And that the King and all the Powers that subordinately act under Him , may so far know in this their day what makes for their externall , internall , and eternal peace , as not to be found fighters against God , nor to touch those anointed ones , for whose sakes God hath of old , and will again rebuke great Kings and Nations , whose true intent is not to use any carnal weapons against any , but to let his Prophets , Lambs , and Little ones alone to live a peaceable and quiet life under them in all godlinesse and honesty , As 't is the best good I can , so 't is the worst hurt I do wish to him and them : For of a truth the Lord himself is risen up for the help of his own seed , against all that slayes it , and if they hearken to the hasty hue and cry of such Priests , as cry out to them for help against his Saints , when the Lord ariseth once more against the house of the evil-doers , and against the help of them that work iniquity , and stretcheth out his hand again ( as undoubtedly he will do to deliver his ransomed ones that are found in innocency toward the King and all men , both he that helpeth shall fall , and he that is holpen shall fall , and they shall all fail together of their expected ends , and aim to root out the seed of Israel , for the mouth of the Lord of Hosts hath spoken it , Isa. 31.2 , 3. Be wise now therefore O King , be instructed O ye Iudges of this English Nation , serve the Lord with fear , and rejoyce before him ( in this day wherein he hath lifted up your heads ) with trembling ; Oppose him not by your interpositions and impositions in his own Court , which is the Conscience , for let Heathenish people rage and imagine what they will , let earthly Kings set themselves , & Rulers take counsel together as they will , it s in vain if against the Lord , and his anointed Christ Jesus his Son in his Saints , whom he will set as his King in the Conscience , and in his holy hill of Sion : But rather kisse the Son lest he be angry , and ye perish for ever from the way of your own peace , for if his wrath be kindled , yea but a little , blessed are all they only that trust and hope in him , Psal. 2. Contradictions and Rounds about the modern infallible teachings of Gods infallible Spirit . III. As to our doctrine of the present guidance of Christs Church and Ministry by his own infallible spirit ; They tell us sometimes , or at least yeeld to us when we tell them , that at this day they only , that are led by the Spirit of God , are the Sons of God , that if any have not Christs Spirit , and the guidance thereof , which is an infallible Spirit and guidance ( for we know no fallible Spirit that he hath , nor fallible guidance that that Spirit hath ) which leads undoubtedly all men and Ministers that follow it , and not the lustings of the flesh against it , into no sin , out of all errour , into all truth , being truth it selfe and no lye , and that some there are now , that are led of that Spirit , and walk after it , and not after the flesh , as then there were , Rom : 8. Gal : 5. By and by ( they finding themselves erring and contradicting one another , and no betier guided in things of God then by their own thoughts , uncertain conjectures , crooked conceits , whereby they crosse one another in their several senses & meanings , about the one mind of Christ , in that one writing , which they call their Rule ) because they follow their own flashy fancies , and not the Spirit , and measuring all others by themselves ( To go round again ) they tell us another thing , and make it no lesse then a matter of meer pretence and high presumption , not so much as safely to be supposed that a man should be now Theopnuestos , divinely inspired , or infallibly guided by Gods Spirit in these dayes , as it that Spirit did not continue his infallible , but afforded only some kind of fallible guidance to his Church & Ministry now , and led them , as R.B.I.T. also say the Light within did the Heathen p. 68. in somethings well , in most into crooked and dangerous wayes , and that makes these men sometimes bid men Attend and sake heed to it , sometimes again ( cane pejus et angue ) reject , detest , and take heed of it , as I shall shew more by and by ; Witnesse I.O. in the places above talkt with , where he talks down all Divine inspiration and guidance now a dayes by the infallible spirit , as matters but falsely pretended to , p. 5 , 6. 63. 167. &c. And T.D. who denys his own Ministry to be infallible and thereby proclaming those to be but fools who follow it , accuses the Qua : of falsehood with a witnesse , for once offering to affirm this truth that theirs ( which yet is truly Christs Ministry ) is infallible : As ( quoth he ) to the infallibillity of their Ministry , 3 Jurates of Sandwich will testifie that they did affirm their Ministry to be infallible : Which if it were not ( say I ) I would yeeld our selves to be as very fools who suffer for it , as those would be who also suffer for attending to it . Contradictions , Confusions & Rounds concerning the large love and rich mercy of God to all mankind . IV. As to the doctrine of Gods great grace , universal love , and rich mercy to all men , they extoll it in their Proclamations of it one while as an infinite , boundlesse , bottomlesse Bounty , matchlesse Mercy , endlesse Large love , exceeding rich grace , lifting up their voyces among all people to this , or the like tune ; O the rich , infinite , unexpressible , unconceiveable , incomprehensible love of God in Christ Iesus to all mankind , to the whole world , so hath he loved the world ( a sic without a sicut ) that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever beleeves in him might not perish , but have everlasting life : God sent not be Son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , he is not willing any one of you should perish , but that all should come to repentance , and be saved in the acknowledgement of his truth . Therefore Ho every one that thirsteth , come ye to the waters , come and buy Wine & Milke , but without mony , without price ; God is free of what he hath ( onely the Priests ( that have freely received , and should as freely give ) give them their Fees , let them have Money , and Price , and Pay , and Augmentations , and Maintenance enough ) God looks for nothing . Come unto Christ all ye that labour and are heavy laden , here 's rest for all your souls : The Spirit and the Bride say come , and who ever will , let him come and take of the water of life freely : Obje : Oh but we are sinners , will God own us ? Answ : Art thou a sinner ? then who ere thou art , thou art one of those Christ came to save become to save that which was lost , to take away the sins of the world . Obj : Oh but we are great sinners , wicked wretches , such as never were the like , multiplying sins , transgressions , is there any hope for us ? Answ : If we confesse our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them , pardoning iniquity , transgression and sin , Christ hath received gifts for the rebellious , he tasted death for every man , he is a propitiation not for some only , but also for the sins of the whole world ; He opens the door of salvation to all , His tender mercies are over all his works , he delights to magnifie his mercy above all ; it rejoyceth against judgement ; Come all and welcome , none shall be cast off in any wise that come to him , he would have all to come , he is not willing that any should perish : Behold I bring you glad tydings of great joy to all people , a Saviour is borne unto them , from God , there 's peace proclaimed , good 〈◊〉 towards men ; Though they are enemies to him by wicked works , yet God is in Christ reconciling the world to himselfe , not imputing trespasses to any that will be reconciled unto him : He swears that he hath no pleasure in the death of him that dyeth , but had much rather that the wicked should turn from his wickednesse and live , and therefore he hath sent his Son a Light to the Nations , and so to be his Salvation , even to the ends of the earth , and this he also declares to men as his good will to them all , and calling to all to look to him and be saved , universally , freely , truly ( without mockage ) tendering peace to all , offering salvation to all men , intending no otherwayes then he sayes , that every individual that turns to him shall have it , and hath wrought in them to will and to do , and now would have them will & do , hath given every one a Talent , in which Trading he shall enter into the joy , but being unfaithful with , and not improving , thereupon only they are shut out ; and abundance more of the like , which is all precious , and the plain truth of the Scripture , which they call the revealed will of God , according to which only we must judge of Gods mind to man-ward . Otherwhiles again , that is , when the Qua : come to question them before their people whether it be so in very deed or no , as they say , that God is so much more prone to mercy then severity , and is so truly loving to all mankind , to all sinner ( and so consequently to all men , for all are but sinners ) provided they accept his grace given , and improve it , & be not wanting to themselves , and come to him , & whether he would honestly & heartily ( as he says ) that all should come and would come , and would not have them , ponere obitem , hinder their Salvation , and put it away from them , and that God as truly intends their good , as they extend the newes of it , if men refuse not the offer and would indeed have them accept of the offer and not slight it ? Then O come let us sing a new song ( To go round again ) The divine doctrine of Gods universal love is drawn in again , as damnable heresie , and his grace niggarded up into a Corner , and his mighty mercy diminisht into a mite , and a Tale told us that this is but a generall outside profer , he intends not truly that all shall come to him by repentance , and have benefit by the death of his Son , he dyed not for all , but though it s said All , every man , by all he means but a few , and he hath not put all so much as into a capacity , or common possibility of life by his Son , nor into so much as an ability to come to him , the most can't chuse life that they may live , they may chuse death that they may dye , and must chuse that , being afore of old ordained to condemnation , and so though mercy and misery , blessing and cursing be set before them , and they bid to chuse , yet their wills must of necessity chuse the curse , having it not wrought in them ( as a few have ) so much as to will and to do any good , and so though they have good and evill to chuse , which they will of the two , yet when all 's done , as the case is , they must ( Hobsons choice ) cleave to the evil , and chuse whether they will have that or none , having not only no arbitrium liberum , but not so much as liberatum , they are yet lockt up to a Post by Adams fall 6000 years before they were born , and were never unloosed to this day , nor ever must be , so as to be at liberty to come when they are call'd , and yet must be condemned too for not coming . they have enough given them to leave them without excuse & damn them , but Christen sub nulla considerationem , quoth I.O. Exer : 4. Christ in no case hath given a saving light to all , nor God grace sufficient to save them , unto them all : Christ , Comfort , that 's the childrens bread , it belongs not to the dogs , Christ dyed and is given only for the world of the elect that beleeve , but the most not only do not , but cannot beleeve ; And besides there 's no Saviour for the most to beleeve in ( as theirs being sent in Gods love but to a few , so that if the most , if all should beleeve him to be theirs , the most must beleeve a lye , for 't is not so , yet ( To go round again ) this withall they must know that they must be condemned for not beleeving a lye for not beleeving that , which if they should all beleeve , the most must beleeve a lye ; For he that beleeves not is condemned , because he beleeves not in the only begotten Son of God , and this and no other thing is their condemnation , but because Christ is come a light into the world , and they come not to it , beleeve not in it , but love the darknesse more then it otherwise Christ came not into the world to condemn the very world ( which is condemned ) but to this intent that the world throw him might be saved . And ( to go round again ) though they are sent to make such fair proffers , promises , and large Proclamations of Gods love , yet this is but his revealed will , he does but do this to make men beleeve he is so loving to them , as to give his own Son for them , that if they beleeve it not as he knows they cannot , faith being his gift , and that which he will give but to few , and leave the most unable to beleeve ) he may come the more in wrath against a hundred to one of mankind , and take vengeance on them for their not beleeving that false Testimony , which in his revealed will he gives by us of his Son , but he hath a secret will , hidden from us , wherein he far otherwise peremptorily decrees , that b●● few only shall be saved , and this ( though hidden from us ) we declare to be of the twain the very truth indeed . Cum multis aliis ejusdem furfuris , quae nunc prae scribere longum est . Just as if , a thousand men fast fettered up in Prison , standing all condemned to be hanged , a messenger should be sent from a King , in whose power it is to save or slay them All on what Terms he pleases , to proclaim the good-Newes , and the Glad-Tidings of pardon and life to them All , and the wonderfull mercy of the King to them All , as one more prone by far to mercy then wrath , in such wise and to such a purpose as followes : O ye poor undon lost men , ye lye now at the mercy of the King , dead men All , but behold I am come from him to bring glad tidings of great joy to you All , lift up your heads , chear up your hearts , the King that he may shew he delights more in saving then destroying , in mercy then wrath , though for displeasing him , not personally , but paternally , in your fathers loins , he has advantage to cut you All off , yet he is resolved to save one of you and hang but 999 , and he would every man of , you beleeve it for himself that its he in particular he comes to , and not to the rest ; And yet to go round again ) Conditionally that every man of you beleeve it for himself , it is to every such individual indeed , & consequently both to one and all the rest , and if ye all unloose your selves out of the Chains and come away ( but that ye can't do , and 't is not his will ye should , and none must give you the keyes ) ye shall all be spared , and I know not which that elect one is for my part , nor which of you All it is he in tends absolutely to spare , that lyes in his secret will , but I am sent with his revealed will to tell you that he that can beleeve it , it s he that is to be favoured ; he is the man who ere it is , and though ( I am sure his love ) is to but one , and 999 are peremptorily , personally , possitively ordained to dye ; Yet ( to go round again ) If ye all beleeve his love to you , ye shall All live , if any dye 't is his own fault , because he beleeves not the Kings love to him , and comes not away out of his Fetters , and nothing else , and though he can't come out of his Fetters , yet let him know its but just that I should leave him there because his father offended the King before he was born , it s enough for them that he is so rich in mercy to the whole thousand , as to save one , and proclaim salvation to All , with no intent of pardon , that he may take the more advantage on the rest by their refusal to come , when they cannot , to do execution on them with ten fold more wrath , rigour and severity , then if the pardon never had been proclaimed to them at all . In much what such a rambling , confused , self-contradictory manner do our Nationall-Messengers and Ministers of Gods grace ( Consideratis consider●ndis ) hold out their Gospell to All men as Embassadours from God to them All. One while extolling , & extending it over all Gods works to All men , and otherwhiles , when they have carryed it about long in a vast circuit and circumference of Commendatory conference ( To go round again ) in their niggardly News-books they wind it about , and wrap it all up within the narrow corner of their conceited wheel , within a wheel , or little world of a few Elect ones only , extenuating it till they allmost quite extinguish it in their talk , & preach it welnigh into nothing : Witnesse I.O. ( as is shewed more at large in the book aforesaid ) and T.D. also telling us indeed that God offers Salvation to All men , but intends it only to a few . Contradictions , Confusions , and Rounds about the doctrine of perfect freedom from sin attainable in this life . V. As to Salvation from sin in this life , which Christ gives to all that follow him in his light . One while they teach it to us themselves as attainable here by the grace of God , as the Qua : do , in these or the like deliveryes of themselves in their preachings and writings according to the Scriptures ; People ye must deny all ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , and live Godly , righteously , and soberly ( mark ) in this present world ; The grace of God that bringeth salvatioe to such as take heed to it , and receive it not in vain , appears to All men , and teaches them so to live , but that they turn from it and turn it into wantonnesse , and if we walk in the Light as God is in the Light , we then have fellowship with him ( who hath none with sin and sinners ) and not only so , but also the blood of Iesus Christ his son cleanseth us from All sin , and though we cannot say we have no sin , since we and all men have sinned , yet if we confess our sins God is faithful not only to forgive us our sins past , but ( which is a further matter ) to cleanse us from All unrighteousnesle : Having therefore such promises let us cleanse our selves from ( mark ) All filthiness of flesh and spirit ( who knows any more then all ) perfecting holiness in Gods fear ; The blessed men , Psal. 119.3 . are the Saints or Holy Ones that do no iniquity but walk in Gods way and though ye think well of your selves because your sins are little , yet no sin is so little , but if liv'd & died in , its damning , therefore take heed of the least iniquityes , & while ye have time and space given you to repent from them in , leave , forsake , foregoe them , live according to the Scripture , which allows of no sin , which is written that men might not sin , which is able through faith to make a man of God perfect and wife to salvation from sin , which is perfect to its own end , which is Salvation , which end it attains not hereafter ▪ for its of no use then , and therefore must do it here , or no where , so that if you dye in the least of your sins ( unrepented from ) better ye had never been born , for there 's no Purgatory in the world to come as the Pope sains , but as the Tree falls it lyes , as death leaves you , judgement finds you , if ye lye down in your Graves in your sins , you will rise out of them full of sorrowes : Listen unto Christs Ministers , who are given for the work of the Ministry , for the perfecting of the Saints , the edifying of the body , till we all come to a Perfect man , to the measure of the stature of the fullnesse of Christ himselfe , so as to be as he is in this world , and whoever saith he abides in him ought so to walk as himselfe walked in whom was no sin : and who hath true hope in him purifieth himselfe as he also is pure ; and a multitude more sayings of like sort we may hear them utter . Otherwhiles ( that is when the Qua : call men to the same living without sin , telling them these things are possible to be done by Gods grace , who of his good pleasure hath wrought in men to will and to do , so that by the power and sufficiency of that they may now work out their own salvation , if they neglect not this day of Gods long suffering and salvation , wherein God would succour them if they will , and that God requires not by either his Ministers or their Scriptures , Impossibilities from his creatures under such paenalty as eternall damnation if not performed ) then ( to go round again ) they tell us other matters , which ( as contradictory as they are to those above-said ) we must notwithstanding ( or else be held for Hereticks ) believe from them to be the truth , viz. That t is most false to affirm that the Scripture ( the perfection whereof they plead to lye , in nullâ aliâ re , in no other thing then its sufficiency to its end , which it can't attain hereafter ( if not here ) sith there it ceases as to all its uses ) either doth or can obtain its end ( which end they say also is salvation from the sin that destroyes the soul ) dum in hoc mundo haremus ( so sayes I. O. Ex. 3. ) while we have a being in this World. Then they make as if the Ministry of them who wrote the Scriptures , were such as their own is , viz. a meer Antick mockage of men , a conclave of contradictions , confusions , absurdities and Rounds , a Ministry of flat falsities ( not to say fooleries ) a mad-message of impossibilities , wherein they stand all their dayes calling upon all men for money ( as Homines Domini ) in Nomine Domini in the name of God on pain of his eternall displeasure and their demnation , to do what they are to believe to as an Article of their Faith on pain of the Hereticks condemnation , All men can never possibly do , God empowering but very few by true grace to do ought at all of what he requires ; nay not empowering any one at all to do all that , viz. to cease from all sinning against him in the time of this life , wherein he requires it to be done by them ; as being never possible to be done in that to come if neglected here : Yea then the Doctrine of full freedome from sin here is contrary to the Tenour of the Scripture , ( quoth T. D. ) yea in short no better nor worse then a very doctrine of Devils ( quoth T. D. and T. Rumsey both in their Book , which is so largely answered already in mine above said . ) So then we have the Ministers mind in this poynt tripliciter or rather quadrupliciter at least about the time of the Saints perfect purgation from all sin . First , It is somewhere that they all confesse at first . Secondly , 'T is not here in this World , ( cry they ) that comes too near the Copyhold of the Qua : and we would not be ensnared with their beguiling Doctrine . Thirdly , 'T is not in that to come ( cry they ) this puts us poynt blank into the Purgatory of the Pope : We must beware of that , lest fleeing too farre from the Qua : snare we fall into the Papists pit . Fourthly , 't is not in any World between this and that to come , for there 's no such middle World that we know of ; therefore Fifthly , ( to goe quite round to where we were before we began , for Incidit in Seyllam qui vult vitare Charybdim ) It 's somewhere ( as we said at first ) but we know not where ; which ( to go round again ) is as much as to say ( for ought we know ) just no-where at all . Howbeit some are not so well aware yet of the Traps they talk themselves into thereby , but that they will be taking on them precisely to determine where it is when we closely urge them ; but their Testimony hangs as handsomely , and is as well tangled together as the links of a pair of Pothangers , where of every one draws a different way from another , for some if askt when the full purging is ; it is ( say they ) while the soul is passing between here and heaven after its departed from the body ; This as A. P. informes me was T. Ds. answer to L.H. when askt at Sandwich in an assembly of many the precise time and period of the perfect purging ; so making a purgatory after death notwithstanding , which it seems is in the aire , and therein only different from the Popes , which is seigned to be under the earth : Others that I have put the Question to , say t is a little before the soul departs out of the body , to whom when I have redoubled my Query thus ; if a little before the soul depart why not a little sooner , sith before is but before let it be a longer or a lesser while ? and if a minute , why not an how ? if an hour , why not a day ? and so ( caeteris paribus , the same means attended to ) why not a month , a year , and years , many as well as few ? I have received no answer and good reason why , because there 's none to give ; and so we take it for granted from them that it 's before death , however as we say ( if at all ) though these contradict T.D. who sayes , with the Pope , it 's after death : Others not knowing which to say , seeing according to our Argument , which is thus , viz. perfect purging , if at all , must be in this World as the Qua ; say , or in that to come as the Pope says , who seigns a Purgatory there for the remnant of sins that remain unpurged away here , or else in another World , betwixt this and that to come , which Chimara who ere heard of ? being now somewhat wary left if they say before the soul go out , which is in this World , they yield to the Qua : and if after it 's gone out which is the World to come , they appeare too near a kin to the Pope in his poynt of Purgatory , affirme it to be in the very 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or moment or instant of the souls departure , which is not in tempore it seems , not in any time at all , but in instanti , and so sith Instans non est Tempus , but as it were punctum temporis , the instant being but a poynt of time and not properly Time it self ; it seems that Accidit in puncto quod non speratur in aevo . That happens in a poynt of time , which could never be so much as hoped to he attained in all the life time before . Thus the Divines dance between this world and that to come , not knowing yet where Purgatory is , nor daring to say distinctly one thing nor other , whether here or hereafter , in this World or that , hovering like Caesar at Rubicon with one foot over the dore sell t' other on this side , one in , t'other out ▪ one in that World , t'other in this World , saying with him yet I may go on , and when afraid , yet I may go back ; So 't is Somtimes one way , then another , Somtimes both wayes , the and t'other ; Somtimes one , o' th' two , take either , Somtimes 'twixt both worlds , in neither ; Some say 't' si'th ' aire , some say 't's i' th' earth ; Of knowledge where 't is there 's a dearth . Some say 't's here , there some , some ( O Riddle ) Nor here , nor there , but just i' th' middle . Contradictions , and various self-confutations , absurdities , riddles and rounds about their Rule of Scriptures . V. As to their Doctrine about the Scripture or Letters , and not the spirit and lights being the Word of God , the fixt , firme foundation , stable standard , truest touchstone or tryall of all truth , only sure , inalterable , invariable , infallible Rule of holy life , They tell us one while not the light within , but the Hebrew and Greek Texts and Transcripts only . and those at least ( though no Translations , but as agreeing therewith ) are all those things abovesaid , that one only Lydius lapis , unchangeable measure for all doctrines , spirits , faiths , truths , and things of God , and sayings to be measured by , yea both it self , and its own sayings also ; the Word of God properly , the foundation , rule , inalterable and unaltered in so much as points , tittles , iota's , or losse of one letter or syllable , and what not ? Quarrelling with the Qua : as siders with Papists in denying it only to be all this , and for calling it a nose of wax that is flexible , and may be twined and wrested by mistakes and mistranscriptions ( as themselves confesse it may by many mistranslations and for calling it ( as I.O. himself calls that most ancient Translation of it , the Septuagint ( therefore see what an infallible rule and Word of God poor people have that know not Heb. and Greek ) a Lesbian Rule , &c. Witnesse I. O. whose businesse in all his Book above mentioned is to prosecute the proof of the Scripture in those and the like particulars , and T. D. in his Books , where he disputes the Scripture to be the Word of God , and only Rule of faith , and life , and that there 's no other standing Rule but the Scriptures , p. 25 , 26. 1 Pam. p. 16.2 . Pam. Otherwhiles , yea no further off then in the self same Books wherein they prosecute the proof thereof , yea and T.D. no further off then in one of the self same pages , wherein he begins his discourse with me about it ( to go round again ) they plainly enough confesse the Scripture to be neither the Word of God nor the Rule , witnesse T. Ds. words , who , when told what the Scripture is , viz. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the letter , writing that holy men wrote , replies you cannot think us so silly sure as to affirm the Scripture in that sence ( which yet is the only sense in which it can properly be called Scripture ) to be the Word of God , but we mean the matter contained in the Scripture ( which is another matter then the Scripture ) whether that be the Rule of faith or no : witnesse also I. O. who Ex. 15.50 . sayes Scriptura non verbum Dei vocatur formaliter quatenus scripta &c. The Scripture formally considered ( and if not so , not properly ( say I ) for forms dat esse , et est id per quam resest id quod est , is that by which every thing is what it is ) is not called the Word of God. And yet ( to go round again ) p. 140. If the Scripture be what it reveals and declares it self to be , it is then unquestionably the Word of the living God , for that it professeth of it self from the beginning to the ending , and Exer. 1 . S. 32. Scripturam saepius eo nomine a spiritu sancto indigitari cuivis eas vel leviter inspicienti fa●ile apparebit ; that the Scripture is very oft specially pointed out by that name is plain to him that but lightly looks into it . Exer. 1. S. 28. Scriptura verbum Dei est , locis poene innumeris verbum Dei dicitur . The Scripture in well nigh innumerable places is called the Word of God , Joh. 17.17 . ( a Text that vel leviter inspicienti touches on no such matter ) and yet ( to go round again ) in the self same Section , in the very next clause , for all those innumerable places ( if there were , as there are not , so many in the book as the Scotchman said ) ubi verbum Dei ennarratur promulgari , &c. where the word of God is said to be preached , publisht , multiplyed , received , that most holy truth it self , which is in mens hearts , and is the matter of it , is , but the Scripture ( formaliter ) formally considered in no wise is intended : And yet ( to go round again ) Exer. 1. S. 3. Fault is found with the Quakers by I. O. as meer seigners from them of that verbum internum or inward word they talke of because they do no more then I.O. does i.e. not own the Scriptures to be intended in those well nigh innumerable places , but that holy matter , truth or Word the Scripture speaks of as nigh in the heart ( of which I.O. himself Ex. 1. S 40. sayes also thus , verbum quod in nobis est , &c. The word in us is that word of faith the Apostles preach ) Which well nigh innumerable places also I. O. himself sayes cannot be intended of Christs person neither , quoniam autem millies fere mentio facta est verbi Dei , &c. because there is well nigh a thousand times mention made of the word of God , and its preaching publishing , receiving , in those places which can't possibly be meant of the person of Christ and the Qua ; will not acknowledge the Scripture as intended there neither , they carve from thence and wrest from thence I know not what Internall Word , of which they are possessors in chief & Haeredes ex Asse of such as held it shut up among themselves of old : So shewing himself to be none of those Disciples of Christ , among whom his Testimony is bound , and his Law sealed up , and hasting in his haughty mind to quarrell with the Qua : for that which is no fault ( unlesse it be his own also he proves himself to Haeves ex Asseitlorum quos tenebrae antea inclusos tenuerunt , who were justly shut up in groapable darknesse for despising the true light , so as to groap for the Wall like the blind , as if he had no eyes , to stumble at noon day as in the night , and , as one horrendo percussus scotomate , to run round with other blind guides in his giddy mind without sense or reason so as not to feel when he interferes and hacks one leg against another , yea somtimes he confesses that the very Greek and Heb. copies or Transcripts are not only ( as well as Translations ) by the fallibility of the Scribes , and the Criticall faculties of men , liable to be turned eight wayes in one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , some as contrary one to another as life to death , and what way any Critick will , and that the very immediate Transcribers of the Originall , both might and also did erre , faile , mistake , and that thereupon various lections ( when as I.O. at first said there was none at all , not in a Tittle ) are risen ( witnesse I. Os. own confession ) and so not fit to be a foundation or a rule which ( to goe round again ) they say ( witnesse R.B.I.T. ) must not be variable ; and those ( though nickt in at next word by I. O. into the lesse offensive and formidable number of a few ) yet at next word ( to go round again ) both clearly confest and plainly cleared by I. Os. own self , to be many , among which though I. O. at the next word nullifies them all under that diminutive name of Apicular , inconsiderable accents not at all intren●hing on the sense , or at all of any moment , of no importance ) yet some ( to go round again ) are confessed to be of some importance , and those of importance ( quoth he ) are considered by Glassius , and consisting not only in superfluity of words unnecessary , but in deficiency of words necessary to the sense of the places , and that some of them are of such moment as Textum sacrum et in literis et sensu corrigere , that they do alter the Text both in its letters and its sense : And though , to get from under that grievous gash which this grant of his own gives to his grand assertion of no variation of the Text in Tittles , I. O. glazes it over with this glosse , viz. That those that are inconsistent with the sense in their stations , of more or lesse weight or moment are but private obscure and novell not above two or three hundred years standing , in some late , but no antient copies , yet by and by ( to go round again ) I. O. denyes not but that some are not only of such publick and open observation as to be obvious to the view of all , but also of long standing witnesse his words , p. 190. There are ( quoth he ) in some Copies of the new Testament , and those some of them of good Antiquity , diverse readings in things or words of lesse importance ( and those which are of importance ( quoth he p. 193. ) have been already considered by others , specially Glassius , is acknowledged , the proof of it lyes within the reach of most in the Copies that we have , and I shall not sollicit the reputation of those who have afforded us others out of their own private furniture , and pag. 27. of his Epist. he grants that there are Corruptions ( mark ) and various lections in the Greek Copies of the Scripture , and our grant ( quoth I. O. ) is founded on this experience , that we evidently find various lections in the Greek Copies we enjoy , and so grant that which ocular inspection evinces to be true : And though I.O. having yielded the Greek Text to be corrupted which is enough to prove his foundation faulty and fallible , if the Hebrew Text were to a tittle entire ) fills up that gap again with this fiddle-fadling defence ( viz. ) Tet there are none able to shew out of any Copies yet extant in the World , or that they can make appear ever to have have been extent , that ever there were any such various lections in the Originalls of the Old Testament : Neverthelesse ( to go round again ) notwithstanding what hath been spoken ( quoth he , p. 178. ) We grant that there are and have been various lections in the Old Testament and the New ; and so falls a shewing in many pages together many varieties in the Old Testament himself , to save his Antagonists the labour of shewing what he tells them they are not able to shew , some of which are not obscure and private ( as I. O. sayes they are ; but publick and open ( as I.O. sayes ) not ( as I. O sayes they are ) of no importance , but of importance , and inconsistent with the sence ( as I. O. sayes to go round again ) not novell , and of late only ( as I. O. sayes they are ) but ( as I. O. sayes to go round again ) of longer standing , of some good Antiquity : Thus I. O. all this while gives and takes grants and begs back again , abates & exacts the whole again , allows and pulls in again , owns and denyes , le ts go and commands home again his Assertion , till by a little and a little he hath let it go , and granted it all away , and then ( to go round again ) fearing he hath let it go too far from serving his turn , does what in him lyes ( though hoe a liquid nihil est ) by a little and a little to fetch it all in again to his first pretended purpose ; he goes on granting from ore shooes to ore boots , till in the quagmire , wherein he quavers too and fro in his quarrel for his quick-sandy foundation , he sinks first up to the Ankles , then up to the Knees , anon up to the Loynes , by and by up to the neck : And Lastly , fearing lest he hath gone so far in granting to the weakening of his own Assertion of the Texts integrity to a little , that he shall hardly ever recover it to stand for truth in that ex sui site primitive posture , wherein he at first exerted and propounded it , unlesse he utter somwhat more like a man , & more to the purpose then all those childish pedling put offs , I.O. urges a knocking Argument from the multitude of the Copies to the impossibility of the Texts being corrupted ; thus viz. p. 175. There was a multiplying of Copies to such a number that it was impossible any should corrupt them all willfully , or by negligence , which hath as much reason in it as his other confident conclusions have , for ( Riddle me this , ye Rabbies ) why might not the same fate fall out to one Copy of Scripture in its transcribing as to another ? and if the fate and fault of falsity and mistake to some , why not to all ? Yet if it were never such a solid consequence we need not deny it ; I. O. ( who still saves us the labour of confuting I. O. ) knocks it down and confounds it himselfe , while elsewhere he argues from the multitude of Copies to the impossibility of their escaping corruptions ; For ( To go round again ) That so many Transcriptions ( quoth he ) should be made without some variation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is , impossible ; thus running out in hast to recover his lost Assertion , he runs himselfe or'e head and eares in the Gulf of most irrecon●ileable contradiction , and irrecoverable confusion ; yea , how many various Lections and various contradictions to himself , are to be found ( yet here 's not all ) in I. Os. opposing of that one plain undeniable truth ; viz. That there are various Lections in the Copies of the very originall Texts of the Scripture which they call their Rule , which though they say truly ( witnesse R. B. I. T : p. 43. & 51. ) That a Rule and grid should be certain , which will not deceive , and that which is variable and alterable cannot be a persons Rule , for it is the property of a Rule to be invariable , and the same at all times ; the Rules , Measures , Weights , Dialls , Squares , and what other things are made , if they be varyed they cease to be Rules , for Rules should be sized and certain , and confesse also with●us , that Error minimus in principio fit major in medio maximus in fine , the least errour in a foundation makes a thing not fit to be a foundation , and so if the Scripture be not intire to a little , so but vel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one jot or tittle fail , and every letter be not preserved by Gods providence from being lost they must needs cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they have no footing nor foundation for their faith , and see no means of being delivered from utter uncertainty in and about all sacred truth , ( Witnesse I.O. Ep : p. 25. and much more of that sort in his book , as its more at large talkt with , in the second of my four Exercitations ) and do confesse also the Scripture is not only flexible and lyable to be changed easily at every Criticks will , and the Transcribers might and did fail and mistake , so that various Sections are thence arisen , witnesse I. O. p. 167. and Epist. p. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. where he tells how many wayes its easie for a Critick to alter it ; Yet ( To go round again and face about half way at least ) they plead the said ( confessedly ) variable and much varied Text , to be the only fixt , firm , foundation , sure Basis , stable Standard , right Rule , true Touchstone , and such like ; Yea ( and to go the whole round , and face quite about as they were ) that it is neither so varied nor variable , by reason of the loving care and aspect of God over the Transcribers whom ( yet for all tha● , he would not guid ) infallibly , whose promise and providence which cannot fail , are engaged to preserve the Hebrew & Greek Texts in their integrity to a tittle , but that its most fit to be own'd as the most perfect and only steady Rule and foundation . Moreover how entirely true soever the Transcriptions are , the Translations , which is all the Rule the people have ( unlesse the Priests prattle must be their Rule ) are confessed to be most various , and abominably , and wofully corrupted ; Witnesse I. O. who is scarce more busie to evince the entirenesse of his Hebrew and Greek Text , then in evidencing the erroneousnesse of all Translations , some of which that are most a client and of most account among most Priests ( as the Septuagint are gone off ( quoth I. O. ) from the Original in a thousand places twice told . And yet ( To go round again ) the only infallible Rule and sure Word of God which they tell the poor people that they have , is the Scripture Text , as it is thus Translated , for they to them either the infallibility of their own Ministry , or of the Holy Chair , and any present guidance of any by the Infallible Spirit also . Thus they run the Rounds , trace to and fro , and dance up and down in their dark minds about the transcriptions and translations of their Text , which they take to be their Rule which transcriptions & translaions were they never so certain and entire by answering to the first originall copies , yet are not capable to be ( to all men ) any other then a lesbian Rule or Nose of Wax , for as much as even where men have them as halfe the world has not they are liable to be wrested , and actually twisted twenty wayes by interpretours , whose expositions , senses and meanings , which are as many and various , as the thoughts , and conceits , and inventions , of the men are who comment upon them , must be the Rule to such as can read them neither in Hebrew , and Greek , nor in their own Mother-Tongues neither : And whereas we ask them ( who tell us that Scripture rightly interpreted only is the right rule of the faith by what Rule shall we know whether the Text be rightly interpreted yea or nay , and not rather wrested , and what is the Rule according to which men are to interpret that Rule of their faith , i.e. that Scripture ( to go round again ) they tell us the Analogy of Faith : And when we query how it may be known that that Faith is right according to which the Scripture is ( if rightly ) to be interpreted ( To go round again ) they tell us the Scripture rightly interpreted ; And when we ask them how it may be known assuredly , uncontroleably , infallibly , that the Scripture is at all of God , and not a cunningly devised fable & invention of men ? they tell us by the Testimony of the Spirit , which ( say they is necessary & onely all-sufficient to that purpose , [ see the Articles of the Clergy of England about the Scripture , And when we ask them but by what shall we try and find assuredly ] infallibly that that Spirit is of God , and not a false one that tells us the Scripture is of God ; ( To go round again ) they tell us by the Scripture . Moreover as when others deny his asserted Authority , purity & integrity of the Text , I. O. pleads it to the least tittle , and yet ( to go round again ) falls flatly to affirm the N●n-integrity of it himself , so when he dreams those poor deluded Fanatical souls ( as he calls them call'd Qua : who yet own it as usefull , helpfull , profitable , perfect to its own end through faith in the Light to the man of God ) do deny the perfection of the Scripture to its proper end , then I.O. strikes up in such strict strains of proving the living power , efficacy , perfection of the said Scripture to its own proper end , which ( he sayes ) is the effecting and perfecting of mens eternall salvation without any help of the Spirit and Light within , stretching it out into such a singular absoluteness this way , as that which by it self alone is Regula perfectissima , Ex : 3. S. 26. ita perfecta , &c. omnibus numeru absoluta , ut nihil opus sit ulla alia revelatione per spiritum out lum●n internum , &c. as revelatio omni respectu perfecta , Ex : 3. S. 28. Potens servare animas , restituens onimam , potent a Dei ad salutem , so that inania mutilia sunt alia omnia principia , &c. S. 29. which all is more fully inculcated at large in Greek and English , p. 83 , 84 , 85 , 86 , 87. where he sayes its absolutely call'd the power of God , and that to its proper end , the Rod of his power without other helps and advantages , that hath efficacy and power in it to save souls , living , effectual , sharper then any two edged sword , &c. as Heb. 4.12 . and much more to that tune , adoring and extolling the external Text with the honour and veneration that 's due to God , Christ and his Spirit , Light , and living word in the heart alone . But when I.O. comes to quarrel with those poor deluded souls , the Iews , for the self same adoring and glorying in their enjoyment of the naked letter , and seeking for life and salvation in the Scriptures without the Light and Spirit within , which he and his Fellow-Scribes are found in , and condemned by the Qua : for at this day , as they were by Christ of old , and when he comes to quarrel with the Qua : for asserting that doctrine of Devills ( as they call it ) viz : attainablenesse of perfect freedom & salvation of the soul from sin in this life ; then I. O. runs and rambles round about and about again with as great an Ardency as he danced the other way before , saying Ex : 3. S. 39. Falsissimum est sacram Scripturam , dum in hoc mundo Haeremus , respectu nostri totum suum finem obtinere aut obtinere posse ; It 's most false to say the Scripture or doth , or can obtain its whole end in respect of us while we live here ; and if we ask where then does it do it in the world to come ? no neither , then cess●bit Scripturae usu , &c. its use will then cease , it s accimmodated to our present state only , and if we ask does it do it at all ? yes ( quoth he or else it cant't be perfect , as I assert it to be , for Ex : 3. S. 24. Disciplinae cujusvis perfectio , &c. In English thus The perfection of every discipline stands in it's relation to its end , so as that is to be held perfect which can , and that imperfect which potis non est , cannot effect its own end , and the perfection of the Scripture , can consist in no other thing then its sufficiency to its own proper end , which is the perfecting our eternall salvation , which salvation though the Scripture be perfect , and does accomplish it , yet ( To go round again ) it can accomplish it neither in this world , nor that to come , and so not at all ; and ( To go round again ) is imperfect ; and further yet , That it s not so absolutely perfect nor effectually powerfull to this end ( of saving souls so as to need no other revelation by the Spirit or Light within , as he says 't is , witnesse its inefficacy to the Iews , who are as busie in it to no urpose , as I. O. himself , of whom I. O. ( to go round again ) sayes ● . 236. thus The Iews enjoy the letter of the Scripture , yea they receive it sometimes with the honour and veneration due to God alone ; Their possession of it is not accompanied with the manifestation of the Spirit , will out which as we see in the instance of themselves , the Word is a dead letter , of no efficacy for the good of souls , they have it for their further ruine , yea while they keep the Scripture ( quoth I. O. of the Iews , and I of I.O. and such literal Christians as he is we shall never ment weapons out of their own Armory for their destruction , like the Philisti●e , they carry the weapon that will serve to cut off their own heads . Thus , Though I. O. who sayes elsewhere , the Scripture is without need of other helps or advantages , or revelation by the Spirit , or Light within ( per se sola sufficiens ) living , absolute , full of power and efficacy to save souls , and yet rides the Rounds so here , as to say that without the Spirit , the word ( and that 's more then the Qua : dare say , howbeit he means thereby but the Scripture ) is a dead latter , of no efficacy to the good of souls , yet ( horrendo percussus scotomate ) he stayes not here , but having said the letter is dead , rather then the Qua : he so hates , shall be owned by him in saying the self-same that himself sayes , hee 'l ride round back again to his first stage , that he may not seem to side with them , and therefore in Ex. 3. S. 40. where I.O. brings in the Qua : arguing strongly against the Letters being the only most perfect rule , thus , Scr●ptura est litera mortua , Spiritus vivisicat , quis litera mortua nis● ipse sit mortuus , idhaerere , ve●it ? The Scripture is a dead letter , the Spirit quickens , who but he that 's dead will adhere to a dead letter as his Rule ? I. O. brings in himself weakly answering thus , viz : ( To go round again , to the confounding of all his own former sayings that the letter is dead ) Falsissima est ista assertio , Scriptura est verbum Dei quod vivum est et efficax neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur ; i.e. That 's a most false assertion , the Scripture is that word of God which is living and efficacious , neither ( quoth he , Trapezuntius like who forgot his own name , forgetting its the name of I.Os. own imposing in the same book ) is the letter any where at all said to be dead . I. Os. Rounds , and Contradictions to himselfe about the Hebrew punctation . Moreover as to Hebrew Ponts I. O. capers about , quavers up and down , and runs round like a blind Horse in a Mill ; One while asserting them coavo'us with the Consonants , of such necessity that without the owning of these to be of Divine original men are left ( which is as much as to say all the Iewish Church were so left from Moses to Ezra , if the Points were added , but by Ezra and his companions , and not by Moses at the first writing ) unto great uncertainty in all Translations and Expositions of the Scripture , p. 202. That who owns them not as so , and are otherwise minded then those who maintain the Antiquity of the Vowels and Accents , so as that the Hebrew Language was written with them from the beginning , not only make doubtfull the Authority of the Scriptures , but even pluck it up by the Roots , sith without the Vowels and Notes of distinction , it hath nothing firm and certain , p. 2.13 . That he that reads it without Points ( as the Church did before Ezra , if Ezra was the first Author of them ) is as one that rides a Horse without a bridle , that may be carried he knows not wither , whereupon relating the opinion of Radulph Cevall , to be that the Hebrew Language was plainly written with them from the beginning ; This mans judgement ( quoth I. O. ) is also mine ; yea p. 205 , 207. He makes the foundation of all Questionable upon the supposition of the Novelty of the Hebrew Points , insinuating it as a just consequence which great and wise men suppose naturally , and necessarily flows from the opinion of the Novelty of the Vowels , and from the state of the Hebrew Language , and Bible unpointed . Otherwhiles notwithstanding , not knowing whether he had best assert them to be so ancient or no , he ( to go round again ) at first faces halse about , and leaves those , who held them up as high as Moses , to prove it , saying only , He shall not oppose them that maintain the Points Coaevous with the letters , and yet after a while does no less in effect then face quite Round about , and oppose them in the same sentence , by this confident assertion ; viz. I no wayes do●bt but , as we now enjoy them , we shall manifest that they were compleated by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The men of the great Synagogue , Ezra and his companions , p. 210 , 211. and p. 226. Pleading against such as hold them to be more Novel , and of no higher invention , then from the Tiberian Missorites , on his own , and their behalf , who affirm Ezra and his companions to have been the Authors of the Points , he sayes their sayings , whom he opposes , cast a probability that Ezra laying aside the old letters because of their difficulty , together with the new introduced the Points , to facilitate their use ; which , if so , then he leaves all ages of the Jewish ●hurch before Ezra , even the true Saints , meerly for want of the Hebrew Vowels and Accents , as men riding Horses without Bridles , who were carried they knew not whether , but so the Saints then were not , and though the generality of the Iews were , yet 't was not because they had no Vowels , Accents , and Points to attend to as their guides ( though I am of I. Os. mind , t is like they then , and till Ezra's days had none ) but because they refused to be led by the Light within , and guided by the Holy Spirit , which , for all their attendance to the letter , they ( as Stephen said Acts 7. ) had allwayes resisted . Thus I. O. to the contradiction of his first ▪ selfe , is run round down the hill from Moses as low as Esdras about his punctilio's and Hebrew Points , but there he reckons to stand and keep his ground against all that come against him , to bring him and his Ancient rich possession of Pins and Points any lower , or at least so low as the Tiberian Missorites : and here he fights like a man in a f●ight or frensie , left all tru●h be for ever lost , if he can't make it uncontroleably manifest that the Points are better guides then may be expected from such bad men , as the Tiberian Massorites ; And first to make that good , to the begetting of an infallible , and divine faith of the Points divine original , and not such a humane one as they must have , if from the Massorites , that these Charecters the Hebrew Points ( mark , as we have them ) are not to be ascribed to the Massorites as their Authors , he does not more make severall silly consequences , then he does himself confound them even as fast as he makes them . First ( Not to meddle here with those many paedantick proofs and put offs , which I have elsewhere ( viz : in the 2 Exer : of my Book call'd The Country correcting the University , sufficiently already disproved ) he treats it out throw a great part of his two Treatises with no other Tool then that Toy of Tradition , or a taedious , vain , uncertain talking of some Learned Humanists , Iews and Christians , in proof of the Points original before the Massorites , against other some , full as well-studied as the other , and in an extravagant way Argles against the Arguments urged by not only learned Iews , and Iesuites , Elias Levita , Bellarminus , &c. but also confessedly learned Protestants , Luther , Zwinglius , Prideaux , Capelli●s against his pretended antiquity of the Points from Ezra , vagarying abroad unreasonably in the high Road of forgeries and fables , then which as he sayes himself , p. 264. ) in nothing more hath the world been cheated , answering conjecture with no more then conjecture , laying about him like a Thatcher , thawcking Author upon Author story upon story , tittle upon tattle , fancy upon fancy , humane fallible persuasion against humane fallible perswasion , and yet in his conclusion not only shooting a thousand years short of Moses , from whom he would at first have drawn them , but also not adventuring to vent himself about their compleat being and beginning from Ezra at any certainty , or clearly , but thus cloudily only , viz : Let any man judge whether from such a heap of uncertainties any thing can arise that may be admitted to give testimony in the cause in hand , and so say I , either for or against , on one side or 'tother ; for quod utrobique incertum est , non est vel hinc vel illinc certum , what 's uncertain between two , concludes nothing either way for certain and so he falls as short of making it evident that they were first from Ezra , as they do who say they were at first from the Massorites or Iewish Rabbins : But suppose his argument from the tradition of some men , had been as 't is not ) from all men downwards ( Nemine contradicente , none to vye , with the rest ) if he go about thereby to manifest , as he does , the undoubtednesse of his consequence and conclusion , yet he hath confounded it himself , if no other man had ever stirred against the businesse , whilest ( to go romnd again ) he tells us p. 105. The constant Tradition of more then a thousand years , carried on by innumerable multitudes of men , great , wise , and sober from one generation to another , doth but set open the gates of Hell for Mahumetans as well , to prove the goodnesse of their Alcoran , and p. 107 , 108. Because this Tradition is pretended with great confidence , as a sure bottome & foundation for receiving of the Scriptures ( & in effect so 't is ( say I by I. O. for the receiving the Points from Ezra , not the Massorites , and that not without the Tradition of as learned to vye with the Reporters ) I shall ( quoth he ) a little further inquire into it . Tradition , which is report of men , from those who are gone before may be either of all men of the world , or only of some of them , if of all , either their suffrages must be taken in some convention , or gathered up from the individuals , as we are able and have opportunity , if the first way of receiving them were possible , which is the utmost improvement that imagination can give the authority inquired after , yet every individual of men being a lyar , the whole Convention must be of the same complexion , and so not be able to yield a sufficient Basis to build a faith upon , cui non potest subesse falsum , that is infallible , and cannot possibly be deceived , much lesse is there any foundation for it in such a report , as is the emergency of the Assertion of individuals . Thus I. O. with the whirlwind of his own round about doctrine , layes all his long Traditionary Tales for the Antiquity of his tittles on the ground again , with his own talk of the invalidity of Tradition to beget such a divine , infallible faith , and certainty , as men must have about the Scripture which he makes the Rule , Basis and Foundation of all faith and certainty , in other things ; so Diruit , aedificat , mutat quadrata Rotundis . Secondly I. O. treats out two more Arguments for the Antiquity and Divinity of his tittles , whereof if no man should intermeddle to confute them ) the one confounds and utterly overturns the other . The first , whereby ( Alas poor man he hampers himself ( and to as little effect ) most horribly to evince the Points to be as high as Ezra at least ( which salves not his Assertion of the Texts integrity however , were it granted him ) and not so novel an invention as of the Tiberian Massorites , is an extraordinary excentrick boundlesly bitter invective , as against the Iewes in general , in their rancor against Christ , wickedly attempting the restoration of their Religion under Barchochab and Rabbi Iuda , by the compiling of their Talmuds , and much other inpertinent stuffe , and story , of which I. O. himself very truly confesses , p. 234 in t●tidem verba , that its all nothing to his own purpose , so specially against the Tiberian Massorites in particular , the supposed Authors of the Hebrew Pun ation for half a hundred pages together ; not caring how he vilifies them , so he may but bring men to beleeve so badly of them , as not to own them as the Inventors of the Vowels and Accents , but Ezra or some holy men guided therein at least by the infallible direction of the Holy Spirit : His Argument , which he hath from Dr. Lightfoot , drawn close up out of p. 240 , 241 , 242 , 246 , 247. in form is on this wise , The pointing of the Bible savours of the work of the Holy Spirit , not of wicked , blind , mad●mon , but the Tiberian Massorites were wicked , blind , mad men , possessors of the Letter without the Spirit , desperately engaged to oppose the truth , under Gods curse , one of whose fundamentals was opposition to the Gospel , feeding themselves with vain fables , * and mischievaus devices against the Gospel , labouring to set up a new Religion under the name of the old , in despite of God , so striving to wrestle it out with his curse to the utmost , men of a profound ignorance in all learning and knowledge , but what concerns their own dunghill Traditions , and innumerable fopperies , addicted to such monstrous fopperies as their Successors in after ages are asham'd of , and seek to palliate what they are able , Idolaters , crafty , raging , serious in nothing , childish about serious things , how much deceitfulness , froth , venome , smoak , nothing in their disputations ; Therefore , considering the importance of the Hebrew Vowels and Accents to a Right understanding of the Scripture , we need clear , yea undeniable , unquestionable evidence and testimony [ and so ( say I ) there is as clear , and unquestionable given this way , as I O. who is concerned to give infallible proof his way , gives to the contrary ] to prove the Rise and Spring of the Points to be from these men , that is , the Tiberian Massorites . This is one of I. Os. Arguments , which how it lacks little confutation by any thing , but it s own apparent folly and evident weaknesse and blindnesse , a child may see : It intimates as if wicked men could not possibly find out and affix such a thing as the Figure of Accents , Vowels and Points , to facilitate to themselves the reading of any Character whatsoever , as if it must be some more then or●inary divine and Supernatural work to devise the shape of the Hebrew Vowels , more then 't is for the Greek , or English , or others to devise theirs ; whereas , if I. O. had not for hast run himself out of the Remembrance of things that are so obvious and ordinary that none but Ignoramus and Trapezuntius himself could easily forget them , what more common and frequent then for men that are ignorant and enmity against God to have the skill and faculty of inventing not only tittles , accents , points and vowels , but also Letters , Consonants , and Characters , Figures , and those of diverse sorts and shapes , long and short hand to expresse themselves by in writing and printing in their respective native Languages : I trow who invented 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and our a e i o u , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , at oi eu ou , and the several kinds of figures for different sounds , and what Nation hath not some of that wit that England hath so much of , as to find out many sorts of Chirography and Brachography for their own conveniences ? and who invented first that so great , so skilful , so useful and eminent work of Typography it selfe , & so many exact wayes of cutting and setting , and stamping so many different Characters of all Languages ? might it not be done by men who heeded not the inspirations of the Spirit ? by men moved meerly with love of mony , and hope of gain ? in which way the Bible comes out lyable to the common fate of all other Books , as to matter of falsification by misprinting ? How many differing Characters and sorts and sizes of Letters , of Greek , Hebrew , English are , and have our Bibles themselves been written and printed in ? and doth not I. O. himself p. 227. tell us of an universal Character attempted by diverse , and ready to be brought forth by his Dr. Wilkz Ward , whereby to expresse all his Apert , Simple , and Double sounds , Vowels and Dipthongs , which I. O. says , will doubtlesse give universal satisfaction to learned and prudent men , when he shall communicate his thoughts on it ? and yet I. O. denyes Wilkins Ward , or any man else in these dayes to be inspired or guided by the infallible Spirit . How worthlesse and frivolous then ? what childishnesse , lightnesse ? what froth , smoake , nothing are the thoughts of I. O. and his Co-Conjecturor Dr. Lightfoot , whom he there cites , p. 247. who can scarce beleeve it possible that the Points should hominem sapere , proceed from such a School as the Tiberian University , or savour of the work of any Humanists or wicked men , or of any other then the Spirit of God ? But if this Argument of I. O. had any such force in it as were worth reselling ( as indeed it hath not ) yet , if we should say nothing to it . I. O. backs it with another so strongly , that he breaks the very back of this , so that it can bear nothing of the burden he layes on it , nor be of the least import , whilest after all his talk of the wickednesse of these men , in proof of their unfitnesse and unlikelinesse to be the Authors of such a businesse as the Points , least this should fail ( To go round again still ) he adds this as another Argument thereof , viz : The likelinesse of it that there were never any such men as these Massorites in the world at all . So odde and Antick is I. Os. extream eagernesse in driving on his design against them that talk of the Tiberians , as the Authors of his Superlatively prized Points , that rather then any should imagine those men to have invented them , he streins and stretches his twatling strings so far , as not to deny , but own , ●nd tell us 1. that there was an University and School of such Tiberians , and so describes the men who and what they were , and when they liv'd ( viz : ) after the finishing of the last Talmud , p. 240 241 , 242. Only that they were men so , and so , and so ill mannered and qualified , Idolate●s , Magicians , &c. and what not that 's evill ? as not likely to be Inventers of so rare a businesse as Vowels and Accents . Secondly , Lest all this should not be of force enough , next by a denyall of it to fright souls into a faith and fancy that there were never any such men in the world at all ; to which purpose he uses such suppositive , doubtful & negative expressions concerning it , as whereby to cause it to become questionable and render it doubtfull whether there ever were any such , or nay , Men they were ( quoth he ) ( if any such were ) who were so and so , ● . 240. and 243. Of all the Fables that are in the Talmud , I know no●e more incredible than this story ( quoth he ) that men who cannot b●y any story [ Mark , he sayes , it appears not by any story there were such , and yet in the very line above sayes 't is a story in the Talmud ; Was there ever any man found so self - confounding in a Treatise as● I. O. and so ready in this work of running the Rounds ? ] or other record be made to appear that they ever were in rerum natura , not observed , not taken notice of by any learned man , Iew or Christian , should find out so great , so excellent a work . To which ( say I ) That though of all the Contradictions that I. O. gives to himself , this is not the first , nor greatest , nor clearest , to say as he does p. 246. & 247. that learned Dr. Lightfoot observes and takes notice of the University and School at Tiberias , and of the gre●t Doctors among the Tiberians by name out of the Talmud ( viz : ) R. Iuda , R. Chamina , R. Chsija Barba , R. Iochannan , R. Ionathan and the rest of the R●bbins , Gemarists , and M●ssorites , of whom I. O. sayes the Jewes generally beleeve not only that there were such men , but also that the Points had a reviving by them according to the observation and notice of R. Azarias , and yet p. 243. to say , as he does , that it cannot be made to appear by any story or other Record , that ever there were such , and that they are unobserved , and not taken notice of by any learned man , Iew or Christian ; yet of all the ridiculous passages that are in the Talmudical Treatise of I. O. this is not the least not to say the most incredible ) that men of whom it cannot by any story or other record be made to appear that they ever were in rerum natura , should according to , or by I. Os. strange story of them , be made to appear to any reasonable man to be Idolaters , Magicians , wicked , blind and mad men , &c. Surely they must first appear and be observed to be in rerum naturâ , before they can to or by any ( save such blind Seers as can see nothing at all better then they can see things as they are ) appear & be observed , much more described by name to be in natura hominum improborū , and if any man beleeve with I. O. that those men can appear to him to be wicked men , &c. In esse cognoscibili , who cannot be made to appear at all that they ever were at all in essereali ; I l'e give them leave to upraid me with [ O thou of little faith , wherefore dost thou doubt it ? ] for my beleevable faculty is indeed too narrow to entertain , or contain that self gainsaying story for a truth : Credat Apella : he that can beleeve it let him , I am an Infidel as to that foolish figment , and if these two contrary Tales can be both true , my reason can't reach the reason of these Rabbinical-riddles . But among the numerous odd passages that passe from I. O. in this Point about the proof of the Points antiquity , that which is yet more observable , as to my present purpose is , that I. O , when he hath roled Sysiphus his stone a great while , pervenire ad summum , to get up to the top , to prove the pedigree of his Punctation as high as Moses if it might be , if not , from Ezra at least , seeing he could not hold it up in the utmost hight , nor carry it clearly into a coaevousnesse with the Scripture , according to the strictnesse of his position , condescends to come down by the Rounds of his Ladder half way , first to the dayes of Ezra , and in the prosecution of his undertaking to manifest it ( as at first he makes no doubt to do ) that they were compleated by Ezra and his Companions , finding himself uncapable to carry the matter , against such as derive their descent from the Iudaical Rabbins , or Tiberian Maslorites , clearly up so high as Ezra , but only cloudily by foisting , flinging , and casting out at least but forgery against forgery , fable against fable , and a heap of uncertainties against the heap of uncertainties of others , for so he will needs call the most cogent and more then probable evidences of all his confessedly learned Antagonists , Elias , Capellus , Luther , Prideaux , &c. p. 218.264.267 . Though his own pleas , considerations , repulses and replyes , are in the eyes of all impartial ones ( suppose I should say ( but as ) 't were enough , ad hominem , to impeach his position of utter falshood , though I might say more ) uncertain , at last he sinks down by the Rounds as low as the Massorites dayes , and so per force by little and little yeilds up as far as is demanded from him , assenting with Azarias p. 247. That the Iews generally beleeve these Points to have been from Moses , at least from Ezra , not denying that the use and knowledge of them , received a great reviving by the Gemarists and Massorites , when they had been much dissused , and p. 271. with the same Azarias ascribing them as to their virtue and force , to Moses , or God on Mount-Sinai , as to their Figure and Character , to Ezra , as to the Restauration of their use , unto the Massorites , in which he hath come quite Round with much ado , and granted enough to prejudice his own position , to the utter overthrow of the truth thereof , for as to the virtue and force , none can deny them to be coaevous with the Hebrew Language it selfe , but 't is the Figure and Character only the question is about , and that is yeelded to be but from Ezra , and since Ezra to have been much dissused , but to have received their great Reviving and Restoration to the use they now stand in ( which is the thing pleaded for against I. O. from the Massorites , and so howbeit I. O. makes no doubt , p. 211. but to manifest it that they were ( as we now enjoy them ) compleated by Ezra and his companions , yet instead thereof he hath confessed in effect that ( as we now enjoy them , since last dissused ) they were revived , restored , and compleated by the Massorites , whom he disclaims as having any hand in them . There remain sundry more ●ontradictions and Rounds I. O. runs in about the Points , of which for a tast take one more here ( though touched on elsewhere ) and then ( sar aquod suffocat ) as more then enough from I. O. so enough from me , as to that point of the Hebrew Punctation , P. 217. I shall manifest ( quoth I. O. ) that its fit they , i.e. the Points , should be all taken out of the w●y , if they have the Original assigned to them by the Prolegomena , i.e. from the Massorites ; Yet p. 221. Grant ( quoth I. O. ) the Points to have the Original pretended ; yet ( to go round again ) they deserve all regard and are of singular use for the right understanding of the Scripture , so that it s not lawfull to depart from them without urgent necessity , &c. Yet p. 244. ( to go round again , and face quite about as ye were I professe ( quoth I. O. ) if I could be throwly convinced that the present Hebrew Punctation were the figment and invention of those men , i.e. the Massorites , I should labour to the utmost , to have it utterly taken away out of the Bible , nor should I in its present station make use of it any more , to have it placed in the Bible as so great a part of the Word of God is not tolerable . Contradictions and Rounds of I. O. about the manner of the first giving out of the Scripture . P. 10.153 . The Word , the Scriptures ( quoth I. O. ) come forth ( mark ) unto us from God , without the least mixture or interveniency of any medium obnoxious to fallibillity ( as is the wisdome , truth , integrity , knowledge , memory of the best of all men ( or capable of giving change , or alteration to the least Iota or Syllable : Yet . p. 30. ( to go round again ) We live ( quoth I. O. ) many yeares from the last person who received any part of the Scripture from God , & have not received it immediately from God. So p. 5 , speaking of the first Pen men of the Scripture , Their tongue ( quoth I.O. ) in what they spake , or their hand in what they wrote , was no more at their own disposall , then the pen is in the hand of an expert writer . Yet p. 6. ( to go round againe ) their mind ( quoth I. O. ) and understanding was used in the choyce of words , for they did use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 words of choyce . Yet Ex. 1. S. 29. Verba disposita sunt per spiritum sanctum , neqt , ad exprimendum sensum quem ipsi de mente et voluntate Den conceperunt ingenio ac arbitrio ipsorum scriptorum sunt permissa aut relicta ( To go round about as ye were ) The words were at the disposall of the holy Spirit , neither to expresse the sense they conceived of the mind and will of God , were they left to the dispose , arbitriment , will , or choyce of the Writers themselves : Finally , as I. O. so abundantly ( as is above shewed ) contradicts and confounds himself in many matters about the Scriptures , or outward Text , so about the sence and meaning of one Text of the Scripture , wherein they all 4 disagree with the Qua : I. O●hand , like Ishmaels , is against all his fellows hands & every of his 3 fellow fighters hands ( whom I have here to do with , who from the same Text sence against the Quakers ) is against him to the confounding of him : which Text is Ioh. 1.9 . Where the true light is said to enlighten every man coming into the World ; for howbeit I. O. cloudily concludes with all the other three , viz. T.D. R.B. I.T. in concluding and crouding that most universall Terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , every man , within the little compasse and narrow corner of his wheel in a wheel , i. e. The Elect men only , saying Synagogically with the rest , Hoc est Syncategorema istud omnis , non absolute sed relate ad Electos dicitur , This is the Consignification of that Term [ All ] it s meant not absolutely , but relatively to the Elect ; yet when he sayes Non dicitur Christum illuminare omnem hominent venientem in mundum , sed quod ipse veniens in mundum omnem hominem illuminat , Christ is not said to enlighten every man that comes into the World , but that becoming into the world lighteneth every man , and that this is the sence of those words ( the falsenesse & silliness of which sence , & the insufficiency & nothingness of it also to serve his turn against the Qua : ( if granted him ) I have shewed in the book it self , to which this is but an Appendix ) Here not only each of his three friends forsake him ( for T.D. himself among all his many meanings meddles not with this ) but two of them viz. I.T. and R.B. who backs I.Ts. Book , make bold to fight against him for it as well as the Qua. do ; Witnesse their words , p. 1 , 2. There is a doubt whether it should be read thus , that was the true light coming into the World , which inlightneth every man , by a trajection , or ( as ours read it as the words are placed ) That was the true light which inlightneth every men which cometh into the World. Grotius after Cyrill , and Austin and some others ( see how the Divines are divided , and the Founders confounded among themselves ) likes the former as best ; but first such trajection disordering the words , 2. The phrase being as fitly interpreted of birth as of appearing as a Teacher , I rather chuse the reading of our Translators , And p. 24. They tell us over again how , coming into the World here is related to every man coming , and not to Christs coming into it , and how they before gave reasons against I. Os. sence . So having been walking the Rounds with these men to give the World a Review of the Riddles they are wrapt in , and the manifold Contradictions they are by the network of their own hands snared , catcht and tangled in about their letter , till I am come with them to that main Text at which they leave me , because it talks so plainly of the true light which they love not , and I leave them to dance about still in the darknesse of their own divinations ; I proceed ( in the light in which I see them , though they , being out of it , see not themselves ) to open briefly to all people , who love not to live with them rather in their darknesse , then in Christs light , the mist of darknesss , wherein they mope about , and dance the Rounds in their discourses about the Light , in their fiery fluttering against which , the wicked now is as he ever was , snared in the work of his own hands , Psal. 9 : 16. Higgaion , Selah , consider and note it . Contradictions , Absurdities , and Rounds concerning the Light in the Conscience , which the Qua : testifie to . As concerning the True Light or gift of Gods grace in every man , the four men aforesaid do ( as all their fellowes do uno ore ) babble somwhat about it , and bear witnesse either for or against it , but each mans witness agrees no better together within it self , then that they give about the other matters abovesaid . Somtimes they call it Light , truly really , naturally and properly so , and not metaphorically , nor by way of allusion to what is so : Witnesse I. O. p. 74. It is spirituall , morall , intellectuall light that hath the preheminence as to a participation of the nature and properties of Light. Otherwhiles the same who excluded it from the name of Metaphoricall , by that of naturall and proper ( to go round again ) do conclude it to be metaphoricall , as in opposition & contradistinction to both naturall and proper ; Witnesse I. O. who confounds his own foresaid saying , p. 74. with another division Ex. 3. S. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , &c. Where under that same term of metaphoricall he distinguishes that Light he calls morall , spiritual , intellectuall ( as respecting and exercising mens minds whether in matters morall , civill or spirituall ) from that which respects bodily sight , which he call'd naturall and proper . Somtimes they call this very light , whereby duties and divine things are discerned , universall and common to all ( as the Qua ; do i. e. in some measure , though not to all in the same ) but when so , then no other but naturall , as in opposition to supernaturall and spirituall ; Witnesse T.D. p. 1.1 pamp . Naturall and supernaturall light are two , an I though all have the one , yet few the other , and I. O. Ex. 4 S. 17. Lumen internum omnibus commune naturale est , &c. The light within common to all is naturall , and to be called so , S. 18. If this light that is common be not naturall , the very Intellect is not naturall . So S. 25. Concessimus reliquias primavae lucis esse in omnibus , sed eas esse spirituales id pernegamus , some relicks of the primitive light we grant to be in all , but deny these to be spirituall : Nihil non naturale , nihil spirituale communicatum &c. Nothing but what 's naturall , nothing that 's spirituall is common or communicated to all : So also R. Bax. I. Tom. A naturall light from Christ is yielded to be in every man , &c. pag. 33. Otherwhiles this very universall light in all which before was said to be not supernaturall or spirituall , but meerly naturall ( to go round again ) is by these men yielded to be at least more then naturall , and so no lesse ( according to T. Ds. division of light into two ) then supernaturall and spirituall : Witnesse ( against themselves ) R.B. I.T. p. 37. It can hardly be avouched that that knowledge in morality and divinity which they ( i. e. People that never had the Law nor Gospell made known to them as the Jewes and Christians have had ) attained to , was by meer light of Nature , and in Baxters Epistle , p. 7. he tells us of a Common supernaturall light given to the unsanctified . I might also call in Iohn Horn , and the two Thomas Moores that push with him against the truth , as Witnesses of the same confusion that is among all the Priests in this matter , who in their book stiled , A fuller Discovery , &c. p. 61. affirm the light wherewith Christ lighteth every man is both naturall and spirituall ; but as my businesse lyes mainly with the other four men ; So George Whitehead hath sufficienly thrust down the vain thoughts already of those three , in his Book stil'd The Hee goats Horn broken : So I let them passe . Witnesse also T. D. who , though he ( together with I.O. p. 77. Nor doth it in the least impair this self evidencing efficacy of the Scripture that it is a morall and spirituall not a naturall light ) owns the Scripture , specially the light in the Scripture , or holy matter contained in the Scripture to be a morall , spirituall , supernaturall , and not a naturall Rule or Light , yet affirms it to be common or universall , i. e. in some measure in the hearts of all , even the very Heathen , p. 16.2 . pamp . The matter contained in the Scripture ( quoth he ) is a Rule to all men ( so far as t is revealed to them ) and was so before 't was put into writing , and so much of it as is written upon the hearts of the Heathens is a Rule to them , Rom. 2.12 . Thus T. D. who before made the one light to be Two , viz. Naturall and supernaturall , here ( to go round again ) makes that light which is in the Scriptures and in the Heathens hearts , Rom. 2.12 . truly One and the same , and no lesse then supernaturall and spirituall : Witnesse also I. O. who calls the light often naturall , yet ( to go round again ) Ex. 4. S. 9. Splits this one light , which they all somtimes falsly call no more then naturall , into a Light which is both naturall , civill , supernaturall and spirituall , as it were all at once : This Light ( quoth he ) or faculty of understanding ( so he foolishly calls it ) splits it self into meerly naturall , and civill , and supernaturall , i. e. spirituall which discerns spirituall matters , and all things in order to the last end , and this inward spirituall light ( quoth he ) or faculty of understanding spirituall things spiritually is various , &c. Where note how I. O. ( falsely ) calls the light no other then the faculty of understanding which he calls elsewhere ( truly enough ) but naturall and yet ( to go round again ) calls the very faculty of understanding which is common to all men , as men , by the Title of this inward spirituall light which discerns spirituell things and that spiritually , in order to the supernaturall and ultimate end , i. e. Salvation . And this inward spirituall light common to all that discerns spirituall things spiritually in order to that ultimate end , I. O. sayes is various too , and very well he may ( if it may be divided again into those two severall sorts into which I.O. sub-splits it ) for whereas here he calls this Light in the Conscience which the Qua. call to ) lumen internum spirituale &c. An inward spirituall light , which discerns spirituall things spiritually in order to the supernaturall , spirituall and ultimate end : yet a little lower , viz. S. 17. ( to go round again ) he calls it meer darknesse it self , by which no divine saving thing can be seen ; witnesse his words , * This Light within common to all , however attended to , is ( quoth he ) in no respect saving , but in all divine matters , so far as to the ultimate end , meer darknesse and blindnesse : One while again they deny this light to be the visive ( i.e. Intellective ) faculty or eye of the soul , or to be given for any such end , as so much as to remove the defect of the visive faculty : Witnesse I. O p. 77. Light will not remove the defect of the visive faculty : Light is not eyes . Otherwhiles ( to go round again ) It is the very visive faculty as Ex. 4. S. 9. This light or faculty of understanding , which is meerly naturall , &c. This inward spirituall light or faculty of understanding spirituall things spiritually , &c. So S. 8. 18. Lux quae proprie mentem respicit seu facultas illa intelligendi est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; oculus , acies mentis , The light which properly respects the mind , or the faculty of the understanding , is the sight , the visive force , the very eye of the mind . One while they tell us that its true among the Gentile Philosophers there was light that guided well , and that in the Law there was light , and that no light that is truly such ( though dimene and imperfect , as ( say they ) that of the Philosophers and the Law was ) is to be rejected , Witnesse R.B. I.T. p. 68. Otherwhiles some light , yea even the Philosophers light , which led them well ( as they say asore ) in some , did in most things lead men into crooked and dangerous wayes : therefore , unlesse men love , and it be best to be led into crooked and dangerous wayes ( to go round again to be rejected : Witnesse against themselves , R.B. & I. T in the self same page , the next line but one after the other , witnesse also I.O. against them both , who Ex 3. S. 28. sayes of the spirit and light within the Qua : calls to ( among other things that he calls incerta , periculosa , inutilia minime necessaria , rejicienda , atque detestanda ) that they are to be both rejected and detested . Thus when they begin of their own accord among their own supposed friends somtimes , these men commend and extoll , and call men to heed this light in the Conscience , which the Qua : call to , so eminently that the Qua : scarce need more words to recommend it to men in , as to its excellency , divinity , usefullnesse , profitablenesse , needfullnesse , and necessity to be heeded and obeyed , then the same which our Divines themselves , who hate it , do seem to set it out in . Otherwhiles , that is , when any Qua ; begin to call men to it , to commend and extoll it among their Parish people ( though in their own forms of speech about it ) and when the Qua : desire them , as they will prove themselves true Ministers of Christ , with Paul to labour to turn all men to the light within themselves ; then ( to go round again ) either they 'l be silent , or ( if they sing anything at all concerning it ) sing out no more so loudly as before to the praise and glory of it , but rathe ( what they are able , they sing their old new song , to the Turncoats Tune of Truth turned out of Doores ) in way of dispraise and disparagement and utter detestation of it to the utmost , as if t were the vilest kind of Canting in the whole world to utter one word in order to the begetting of any people into so much as any measure of any good opinion at all of a light within , so that I may truly say of these Seers as the Poet once of one of Caesars Singers : Omnibus hoc vitium est cantoribus inter amicos , Vt nunquam inducunt animum cantare rogati , Injussi nunquam desistunt , &c. To shew the World how Sepharically these Ministers sing out the high praises of the light of Christ , the light of the World , the light in the Conscience , when they please to begin of themselves ▪ and ( to go round again ) how symphonically they set it at their heels , in opposition to the Qua : rather then the Qua : shall prevail with them to say any thing of it that is any better then nought , I shall hereunder shew both their voluntary calls to , and commendations of , & their unjustly occasioned cautions about & condemnations of this light of Christ in the Conscience of men , when the Qua : commend and call to it , and set the one of these immediately under the other , only premising this , that whether they speak of the light which themselves call Christ , which the letter holds sorth and testifies to , or the light wherewith God shines and shews his will and mind in some measure in the hearts and minds of all men , even Heathen Philosophers or others , which we call Christs light , though they do not we mean ( however they divide these ) no other but that one Law of God which the Letter is the Copy of , which is spirituall , holy , just and good , which T. D. confesses to be the Heathens Rule so far as is written in their hearts . Christ the Light of the World , and his light in the heart , which the Scripture testifies of abundantly , & not any such thing as mans own thoughts , wisdome , imaginations , inventions , &c. Which the Heathen became vain in , Rom , 1. which the Qua : call all men out of , and the Divines , that lead men by no other are themselves yet led by more then any , steering by nothing but their own many minds and meanings on the Scripture , &c. Some few calls to , and Commendations of the light , with Cautions to take heed to it , collected out of many more that are in R. B. and I. T. his Book . P. 68. It concerns us , ( say they ) to take heed how we dote on our own reason , or the most exact writers of morality , and neglect the light which Christ hath brought into the World : Let us be wise so to use Candles as not to burn day-light , that we so make use of all the reason & humane wisdome and virtue we have our selves , or discern in others writings or examples that yet we chiefly eye and follow the grand light , the Sun of righteousness , the Lord Jesus , learning him by studying the great Counsell of God , which he revealed and denying our selves take up our Crosse and follow him as his Disciples ; Christ is to be chosen and followed as our Light : An Exhortation to use Christ as our Light , that was the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World ; be induced to imbrace and follow the Lord Christ as the great Light of the World , besides the evidence out of Scripture to prove him to be sent from God a light into the World &c. His sayings and doings do amply confirm it . And p. 88. 89 they go on thus ; Though the Jewes contradicted and blasphemed , the Romane Emperour raged , Lucian jeered , Libanism wrangled , Iulian calumniated , Papists , corrupt Gnosticks , Hereticks , Fanaticks , Quakers , [ here they abominably bely the truth , for the Quakers call all and only to the light of Christ ] adulterate and cloud the truth of Christ , they do but pisse against the Sun , the light of Christs Doctrine , the truth of the Gospell doth and will shine forth , nor can all the cavills ( say they ) of moderne Atheists , or the dust raised by new Phantasticks , take away the brightnesse of Christs light , or hinder its enlightning others then themselves , and shall we after all the Arguments given of Christs being the true light , follow after ignes fatuos , [ who these be but that fraternity , who would have men follow their fancies , and not Christs light in the Conscience , which is that the Quakers call to , I know not ] What reall comfort or spirituall help to holinesse or heavenly directions do they give to lead men to God , better then Christ hath done ? May you not discern a vain glorious spirit , a self-seeking , proud , carnall spirit in them , what do their censures of others shew , but a mind to extoll themselves ? their affected speech , looks , carriage , but a desire to hide their falshood ? what do all the devices of Iesuits , Popes , and their Agents tend to but either by force or subtlety to set up the monstrous powers of the man of sin , and their own domineerlng over mens consciences underhim ? [ ●aSenus recte quidem sed et etiam de te fabula O Parochialis Sacerdos ] What is in their conclave but pollicy ? in their counsell but deceit ? in their Iesuists and Casuists but jugglihg ? shall we go after such Masters and leave Christ ? Remember we that one is our Master , even Christ ; when any shall sollicit us not to adhere to Christ as our Teacher , reject them : Christ hath warned you , [ say they , and so say I too as concerning any that lead forth from his light within therefore , saith he , go not forth after them , nor follow them ] If any say low here is Christ or there [ and so do all Priests and Professors , and their Teachers in their sundry forms and outward observations , in which they look for the Kingdome which comes not in them ] believe it not . We will not venture our lives upon Mountebanks , and will we our souls upon deceivers ? Shall we follow our own conceits , which often prove foolish , and neglect Christs Doctrine [ which say we still is his teaching light and counsell in the Conscience ] which alwayes proves wise and safe ? no , no , let us answer as Peter , Lord , to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternall life . Alas , what can we expect but if we follow blind leaders , as all are that teach the things of God otherwise then Christ and his Apostles did [ who , say I , called all along to walk in the light within ] we should fall with them into the Ditch , into everlasting perdition ? On the otherside there is so much plain and clear light in Christs doctrine as will guide our feet in the way of peace ; Away then with all such obtruded insinuating Teachers as indeavour to hide from us the light of Christ shining in his Doctrine , recorded in Scripture ; Let 's say none but Christ , none but Christ , that Christ which preached , dyed at Ierusalem , that word of his which is written in my Bible [ of which the Bible testifies say I , that its near in the heart to heare and do it ] shall be my light : to the Testimony of Jesus [ which sayes tho Scripture is the spirit of prophecy , the sure word of prophecy , that as a light shineth in the dark place of the heart , and is to be taken heed to ] to his Everlasting Gospell I stick . So Bixt . Ep. p. 7. ( speaking of the Qua : ) Do they affirm that all men have the light of reason ? who denyeth it of any but Idiots and Infants ? Do they maintain that this light is from Iesus Christ , both as the Authour and restorer of nature ? and by whom among us is this denyed ? Do they say that repaired or reprived nature may be fitly called grace ? about this also we have no mind to quarrell with them , so they will not exclude supernaturall grace thereby ( as we do not , but hereby conclude it ) Do they hold that common supernaturall light is given to many ( at least ) of the unsanctified , &c. and who contradicteth them in this ? Do they hold that as the Sun is appointed in nature to be the light of every man that cometh into the World , though shutting our eyes may exclude it ; So Christ is by office the Sun in the world of grace , giving men actually all the gracious light they have , being sufficient himself to enlighten all , and giving them an illuminating word , which is sufficient in its own kind to do its own part , though many are blind , and for their sin are deprived of the communication of this light ? why all this we maintain as well as they : do they say that all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to and obeyed ? why what man did they ever speak with that 's a Christian ; [ no Christians indeed say I , but too many Antichristians ] that denyeth it ? [ See what a deal of the Quakers doctrine concerning learning only at Christs light is here uttered by these men R.B. I.T. who yet hate the self same doctrine at their hearts when the Quakers teach it ; also in many other places they teach much more to the same purpose ; putting men on to attendance to the light , yea even the light within every man , as p. 40 , 41. ] This light usefull for two ends ; First , To restrain men from excesse of sin , &c. As he gave a Law to the Iewes because of transgression , to restrain them or abate punishments ; so to other people he gave a law in themselves to prevent the extirpation of the Nations by bridling them in their lusts , thorow conscience of sin and fear of punishment . Secondly , Besides this God hath another end , that they might be inexcusable who sinned against the light in them , and God justified in his Sentence and judgment upon them . [ Observe how this light within is owned by them as the Law of God , which T.D. affirming the work of the Law only to be there , yet denyes to be in the heathens hearts , to the contradiction of these men and of himself also in that other plaee , p. 16.2 . pamp . Where ( to go round again ) he confesses much of the holy matter of the Scripture to be written upon the hearts of the heathens , and that to be their Rule ) I say as the Law of God which is spirituall , holy , just and good , and to be obeyed , for else transgression of it could not be sin deserving judgment , for sin is no other then the transgression of the Law. ] So p. 82.83 . they go on thus , If the light shine into thy soul from Christ so as any convictions or discoveryes of truth from Christ get into thee , [ and some convictions they confesse all hav● by the light within ] take heed thou hold it not in unrighteousnesse , nor seek to quench it , Rom. 1.18 . Wrath to all that hold truth in unrighteousnesse , when lust imprisons light , no entrance for the light of Christ into that soul , there must be a love of the light : It s the greatest sign of a man willfully evill , when he hates the light ; and it s a good sign of a man truly good , when he can delight in that light ( mork ) which discovers his own euills , [ What light is that which discovers a mans own evills but the light within ? the letter without doth de jure only , the light within doth de facto discover mens own evill ] Christ hath determined this to be the great condemnation , that men love darknesse rather then light [ or else the Heathen could not be condemned , say I , who have and yet hate the light within , for they have no letter without ] for that 's the sign they side with the Prince of darknesse , and men that do truth come to the light that their deeds may be manifest , &c. The more light is rejected , the more purely voluntary any sin is , when men are willingly ignorant , they are incurably evill , &c. Each person is to make their use of the light within him , so far as it is light and usefull . Certainly it concerns every man so far as to look to the light within him , ( mark ) that he do not , as t is said of some , Job 24.13 . Rebell against the Light , [ which Text in Iob I. O. interprets of the letter , but I. T. to the confutation of I. O. ( truly with us ) of the Common light within men ] A mens conscience is so far a law to him , that though it cannot of it self justifie [ which is contrary to Rom. 2. which sayes their inward thought as well excuses the Heathen when they do well , as accuses when they do ill , and excusation and justification , or to excuse , clear , justifie are all one ] yet it may condemn him : So p , 37. they go on thus , God hath imprinted in all , even the most Barbarous people , some relique of light , though in some it is so small [ that may be say we , for all have not the same , but all some measure of Gods light , which these men somtimes call darknesse , delusive and dangerous , and degrees vary not the nature of the case ] that it can hardly be perceived whether there be any sense of sin or wrath , of duty or reward , of God or Devill , Heaven or Hell. Secondly , Some people that never had the Gospell nor the Law made known to them as the Jewes and Christians have had , yet have attained to so much knowledge and practice of morall duties [ Mark , morall duties are the main things of the Law , and required in the morall Law , viz. To do as we would be done by , which faith Christ is the Law and Prophets , Math. 7. The sum , substance , and upshot of all , and more then all offering and sacrifice , so that the Iews failing in these weightiar matters , viz. Iudgment , mercy , faith , &c. all outward oblations and observations were abhorred ] that in some acts of righteousnesse , temperance , chastity , fidelity , and such vertues they have equallized at least in respect of their outward demeanour toward men , if not exceeded not only Iewes [ who had the Scripture , as our Scribes have , and search , as much in it ] but also [ the more shame for the most of you filthy , fruitlesse , faithlesse Christians the while , whom very heathens will therefore judge ] the most Christians , Thirdly , And in the knowledge of God , though therein they were most defective , yet they attained to so much knowledge and right apprehension of him , as enabled them to correct the Vulgar errours concerning God. [ See how far beyond our vulgar Christians , and very Christian Clergy men , that have the letter to boast , talk & trade on , the light within hath led the very Ethnicks that have heeded it , by these mens own confession ; But they go on yet further preaching up the light with the Qua : thus , p. 84. It will concern those who own Christ as their light , to judge themselves and their wayes by his light : [ This act of self judgment is within faith I.O. Seconding that morall instinct of good and evill , that is imprinted by God on the Conscience from the innate light therein ] It is the great benefit of the light that it doth make manifest , Eph. 5.13 . Thus by the light of Christ the evill of our wayes is reproved , the wayes of God approved : Now this is no small benefit to have the light to discern our errors , which without light from Christ we should never have understood , A wise Christian will be often judging himself by the light of the Law , discovering his Transgressions [ That m●st needs be the Law in the Conscience which , de facto , shewes every mans own sins to himselfe ] It will be needfull not only to use the light of Christ to judge our selves by , but also to order our actions by . I am the light of the World , saith Christ , he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness . There cannot be unsafe walking by Christs light , there is no danger when Christ our light goes before , walk in the light saith Christ , while ye have the light , lest darknesse come upon you : how many millions are there of souls perplexed and tortured all their life with fears and doubts for want of walking by the light of Christ in Scripture [ which , say I , is that in the conscience which the Scripture mainly calls to ] and chusing rather to walk by a light and sparks of their own kindling [ alias their own wisdome , conceits , sences and meanings on the Scripture , traditions in worship , and such like which they call light ] which in the end either goes quite out , or burns so dim as to leave them in darknesse of spirit and horror of conscience ; and no marveile since such as neglect the word preached [ which is that word of faith i.e. which men are to beleeve in unto life , which the Scripture testifies , and the Apostles preached to be nigh in mens hearts to heave and do it ] should follow the mares of humane reason , the examples , customes , and dictates of men , and in conclusion ly down in sorrow , Isa. 40.11 . Such foolish fires will lead to nothing but bogs and precipices , but Christ the true light when his Gospell is followed ( which is the light in the heart , 2 Cor ; 4.5 , 6. ) guides the feet of men into the way of peace : The light of Christ is to be used as our weapons or Tools to defend ourselves , or to work with , let us put off the works of darknesse , and put on the armour of light , the truth is light , is the chiefest instrument for safety and worke , if a man be without light he can neither defend himself nor offend an enemy ; he that would make use of Christs light must be armed with his doctrine ; he that would improve the light , must be a doing the businesse which the word of Christ directs him to , and to that end it ( mark ) must dwell richly in him . Make use of the light of Christ for thy comfort and rejoycing ; it is it which removes doubts , griefs , fears , despair in life or death . Oh how sweetly might men live , how comfortably might they dye , if they did make use of it : [ Thus highly do these two men R.B. I.T. speake of the light of Christ within , which the Qua : preach : yea that in the very Heathen , though they oft call it naturall , yet they recommend it as that which told the truth to the heathen , which they holding in unrighteousnesse were under wrath , and without excuse before God , because they glorified him not as God , but were fill'd with unrighteousnesse , and did the things which by that of God in them they knew judgment was due to , and that they were worthy of wrath . ] Ignorance of the Law being not to be pleaded by them , ( say they ) who sin against the innate light of their own spirits , for as much as that fact must needs be voluntary which is done against the knowledge and judgment of a mans own conscience ; And yet somtimes ( to go round again ) they tell us that when their Saints sin through infirmity only ( as T. D. judges David did when he was guilty of murder and adultery ) which when they doe they act against the knowledge and judgment of their own consciences , their facts are not voluntary , but altogether , yea utterly against their wills : Yea p. 41. They seem to judge themselves much belyed by the Qua. for denying the light within , and set themselves to vindicate themselves from that as a false aspersion , as if they were men that do truly own the light within as much as any , yea they there make a use of Application of their Doctrine about the Light that enlightneth every man that cometh into the World , to justifie themselves against the Qua : as owners and honourers of the light within , and to warn men that they act not against their Light within , to this purpose ] we may infer ( say they ) a plea for our selves against the unjust accusations of the Qua : who use to charge publick preachers with denying the light within each man , whereas such light is not at all denyed by them ; each person is to make use of the light within , that he do not rebell against the light , a mans own conscience is a Law to him , &c. [ This and much more do these men , when they are pleased to begin of themselves confesse to the excellent usefullnesse and sing out to the praise of the light of God within each man , but if the Qua : fall in with them in the same work , and commend the same light ( for t is no other but that of Christ the Qua : cry up ) in the same words with the Priests , then in enmity against the Qua , they set themselves to cry it down with as much indignation and detestation , as they cryed it up with approbation and high commendation before : Then ( to go round again ) they sing a new song in contempt of it , to the Time that hereunder followeth , inveighing most heavily and bitterly against the Quak : for this businesse of warning men to take heed to the Light within , to that of God in their consciences , calling both it and them no lesse then all to nought : witnesse their clamours against the Qua : for this very thing in Baxt. Epist. p. 7. ] Their i.e. the Qu● : great pretence , when they dishonour the Scripture and the Ministry , is to lead men to a light within them , and this is their cry in our Assemblies and our streets [ hearken to the light and word within you ] and the sufficiency of this they clamourously defend . So p. 6. They ( i.e. the Quakers ) assert that there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to God of it self , that it is a Rule to shew duty and sin , that there 's no need of other teaching of man , that this is one in all , that it is the Gospell , this is the main prop of the new Anti-christian Religion , or frenzy of the Quak : and leads them into pernitious courses . So p. 41. A mans own light [ cry they , speaking of that of God in the Conscience of all men , which somtimes themselves call no lesse then Gods Law in them , which is in them , but not of them , nor naturall , but spirituall , holy , just and good ] cannot warrant of it self without the Scripture a mans actions to be lawfull , which he doth according to that light [ And yet T. D. sayes much of the truth of the Scripture is written on the hearts of the Heathen , and that so much of it as is there written is their Rule , so by consequence mens Rule can't of it self warrant mens actions to be right that are regulated by it : ( Oh the Rounds of these men ) yea Tomb. and Baxter blush not in proof of that their lye as boldly as blindly , to assert in the same page that Paul in his bloody persecutions and sins followed the light within him , and counted it his great sin that he had so done , though they confesse ( as before ) that all light in all men is from God and Christ , and that the light , some of which all men have from God and Christ , though dim in regard of its small measure , gives them to discern sins , dutyes , and divine Attributes , and leads them to much of God and more morallity , fidellity , chastity , temperance , righteousness , which the Letter sayes are the fruits of the Spirit , then most Christians have attained to : Yea so blasphemously seeme they to speak in the same page of the light within which the Qua. follow and call to , which is no other then that of God in men that convinces them of sin as to intimate that men may , as the Quakers say they do , follow the light within them , and yet their practice be of the Devill [ The Prince and Ruler only of the darknesse in men ] and not from Gods Spirit , yea ( say they there ) if following the dictates of a mans own Conscience ( i.e. the leadings of the light in it ) could warrant his actions the most horrid acts of Idolaters , Papists , Pagans , Mahometans , Fanaticks , i. e. mad men should be free from censure and controul . Thus to their own shame confusion , and self contradiction who one while speak well of it , they speake abominably of the light within , as if all the wickednesse that is in the world came to passe by following the light within the conscience , the going away from which into mans own vain imaginations and vile inventions into the dark , for not taking heed to the ●ouncell of God , i. e. his light in the heart , is the only cause of all abomination , without which light shining , and mens loving the darknesse and evill deeds , which it condemns more then it , there could be neither sin , as ●hrist sayes , nor condemnation , Iohn 3.19 . Rom. 8 , 1. As ( to go round again ) to their own confutation themselves intimate in the very next words , p. 41 , 42. which are thus . If a man do that which he thinks to be evill , [ that is by the lights dictating it so to be in his own Conscience , as they hinted just before ] though it were good and lawfull in it selfe , it would be sin to him , yea that man that doth good against his conscience is hut an hypocrite in so doing , though the thing in if self be right and good : When a man doth evill , which his conscience tells him is so , he commits a sin of the highest degree , as to him that knowes to do good , and doth it not , to him it is sin , Iam. 4.7 . That is , sin in an high degree , hence great horrour of spirit hath attended them that have omitted good , which their conscience told them they should do , and much more horrour in them that have done evill against their conscience , as in the case of Iudas , Spira and other instances might be given [ Without which acting against conscience there 's neither sin nor horrour say we with John and Christ , Ioh. 15.24 . 1 Ioh. 3 20. but peace as themselves hereunder confesse , i.e. assurance of Gods acceptance , acquittance , non-condemnation , justification . ] And therefore ( say they ) if the Qua : intended no more then this , by bidding men look to the light within them [ And no more then that do we intend , God knows , though the blind Guides , who can't see Wood for Trees , hating us , are minded to make men mistake us , as miserably as themselves mistake us ] that men should take heed that they omitted not the good their own consciences told them they ought to do , and that they did not the evill their consciences judged to be so , we should accept of their warning . Surely it will concern you , as to look that your conscience be not erroneus [ As it ever is when , and never is , say I , but when it erres from the light of God within it , for the heart is a dark place of it self , but as the true light shines in it , 2 Pet. 1. 19. and heeds not that . ] So , when your conscience is rightly informed , to follow it , and when it goes wrong [ As it never does , say I , but when it goes from its guide the light ] yet to suspend the act which it condemns [ Till by the light it come to approve of what it ignorantly condemned ] if you desire peace [ It seemes then by these men , as well as the Qua : doctrine , that peace is no where to be had but in walking according to the light in the Conscience ] there will ( say they ) be no plea to acquit him before God , or to quiet his own spirit , who proceeds to act according to the light in his own conscience : And a sin against the light of nature [ So they stile that voyce of God in the conscience still ] is so much the more damnable in that it is against the most irrefragable evidence [ Mark how they somtimes yield the light in the conscience of all to be a far clearer evidence then that of the letter it self , and more dangerous to resist , in reference to which they somtimes ( to go round again call the light within , but obscure , meer darknesse and blindnesse , and not so dangerous nor damnable to resist , but rather dangerous , yea no lesse then damnable to follow ] He that doubteth ( say they with Paul ) is damned if he eat , because he eateth not of faith , for whatever is " not of faith is sin ( Mark how themselves affirme with Paul and us , that faith , without which nothing is pleasing to God , out of which all that 's done is damning , to be a faith in that light of Christ , which is in the conscience . Wo be to him ( cry they as we also do ) who condemns himself in what he allowes , and contrariwise , say we and Paul , and consequently themselves , happy is he ( and he only ) who is not condemned in himself ( that is by the light in his own conscience ) in what he allowes . Thus absolutely do these Light-haters somtimes themselves blesse , approve and applaud the light , which otherwhiles they brawl and bark against , when it s own children the Qua : appear to justifie it ; Somtimes ( to go round again ) as absurdly do they bolt out bitternesse and blasphemies against that light which ( forgetting how unawares they confesse the truth to the Qua : ) otherwhiles they so eminently applauded as good and of God , &c , making it somtimes pernitious , dangerous , yea in the highest degree damnable to neglect it ; at othertimes ( to go round again ) pernitious , dangerous , and in the highest degree damnable to attend to it : As p. 68. ] Among the Gentile Philosophers there was light , but dim , no light , truly such , is to be rejected ; Philosopphers light guided men well in some things ; yet ( to go round again ) in most did lead them into crooked and dangerous wayes [ Which position of these blind Guides is such an Ignis fatuus , such a Will with a wish or whimsicall piece of guidance , as they falsly render the light it self to be , which they call so ; as if one and the same light of God should be a safe and sure guide at one time , and such a misleading , unsafe guide and foolish fire at another , as p. 84. will lead into nothing but Bags & Praecipices , or as if the least measure of the light of God could lead any man into the least measure of iniquity ; Yea somtimes they call this light of God in the Conscience , which is Gods own voyce ( in Nature at least as I.O. sayes ) his Law and most immediate Counsell to a man , no other then mans own counsell , way , 〈◊〉 that leads to cursing , Witnesse p. 45 , 40. Where they say thus ] To leave a person to his own imagination , lust , to walk in his own counsell , his own way ( which is all one as to leave him to the light within him ) is the greatest curse and judgment to a man from God , for refusing to hearken to Gods voyce . Therefore the light within each person is of it self no safe guide , and the Qua ; prescribe that to men as their rule , which God counts their curse [ yet ( to go round again ) p. 55. ] the light within each person is by creation and inward work of the Spirit [ So to be left to the inward work of the Spirit is it seems with these men the greatest curse , yet ( to go round again ) as before , p. 41. ] The Qua : charge publick preachers with denying the light within each man , whereas such light is not at all denyed by them , but is acknowledged to be a great benefit to mankind , and p. 84. It concerns those who own Christ as their light , to judge themselves and their wayes by his light , [ And the light within is his light , witnesse Baxt. Epist. above cited , This light is from Christ both as the Authour and Restorer of nature , all this light ( within us and without us ) is to be hearkened to , and obeyed ] it s the greatest benefit of light that it doth make manifest , by the light of Christ the evill of our wayes is reproved , the wayes of God approved , we know the righteousness of God and our own unrighteousness , this is no small benefit to have light to discern our own errours , which without light from Christ [ and his light within say I , by which only every man knowes , de facto , what he is ] we should never have understood , a wise Christian therefore will be often judging himselfe ( And self judgment saith I. O. is from the light indelebly implanted by God within each mans conscience ) by the light of the Law [ Which law is light saith the letter , Prov. 6. 23. ] discovering his transgressions [ yet ( to go round again ) p. 85. Oh that all that talk of the light within them would follow the light about them ! Light within you whatever the Qua : tell you , will leave you in perplexity , when you shall have most need of comfort ; but ( to go round again ) if you believe in the Light of Christ , as it s held out to you in the Gospell [ That is the letter with them , which letter yet testifies the light of the Gospell of Christ to be shining from God within mens hearts , 2 Cor. 4. ] you shall see the light of life . Therefore ( to go round again ) be perswaded [ Cry they , and so they conclude their Book ] to disclaime the pretended new light within you , as your sufficient guide to God , and chuse the light of Christ from Heaven in his Gospel to walk by [ Which Christ say I , speaks and shines from heaven to men , now no where immediately , but in mens hearts and consciences , though men write and speak as from him here on earth , whom speaking there by his spirit from heaven , it 's more dangerous to turn away from , then from them that speak but on earth ] and it ( say they and so say I ) will guide and " comfort you surely and sweetly to eternall life . So I have shewed how these two children of the night and darknesse R B. an I. T. who were wont to bite and tear one another about the Tradition of Infant Baptisme do both concurr in their divinity doings against the Qua ; and the light within , to bawl out somthing , uno ore , against both , far better then their joynt dis-joynted talk concurres together within it self ; and so run the Rounds and dance the Hay , up and down , in and out , and somtimes round about , that the Reader of them can hardly discern or find whether they be fuller of concessions to the Qua : by their confessions to , and commendations of the light within , or of denyalls , contemnings and condemnations of it , for at severall times ( somtimes more Expressly , somtimes more implicitly ) they are found in both in a most egregious manner ; One while ( as if parturirent montes ) mightily magnifying the light within for a great way together , as if we might warrantably take them to be some trusty friends to it , Another while minifying , vilifying , nullifying it into nothing but some blind lump of darknesse ; like the Lizard making many good prints upon it with their fore-feet , in that sandy way wherein they passe , and then dashing them all out again with a long bushy Tail , or Tale of it to the contrary ; like the blind night B●t flying and fluttering up into the Air with a mighty humming noyse of Encomiums about it , and then dropping down into a piece of Cow dung : As the Devill serv'd him who is the Author of it , who , after he had set him upon the highest pinnacle of the Temple , he would fain have thrown down thence to destruction ; so deal these by the inward light or Word of Gods speaking in the heart , which , after in words they with I. O. have magnified over all Gods name , they thrust it down ( as he does ) below every name yea and every thing almost that hath any name at all ; and , as I. O. after in a sound of words , they have set it out as glorious , next to God , as the Sun in its brightnesse , render it under many reviling , opprobrious Titles , well nigh as odious , as Satan himself in his Princely , and their own Priestly blindnesse : So that which side soever of those two sides and sorts of sayings or double tongu'd talk of the light the Truth stands on , yet ( unlesse contradictories can ) it 's certain all cannot be true which they utter of it : And if the worst should be true , as ( absit blasphemia , far be it from any good man to beleeve their blasphemies of it are ) then the best is false , and that at best proves themselves no better then Self-confounders ; but if the best they say of it be true ( as most true it is ) then R. B. and I. T. till they both repent in dust and ashes before the Lord for their sin in belying his light , can expect no better from him , then what is due to all blind Truth Blasphemers . As for T. D. he sayes the least of all these four in contradiction to himself about the light ; howbeit , as is above shewed , not so little , but that it s seen , that eodem cum illis haeret luto , he sticks in the same Quagmire together with them : But as for I. O he is more over head and eares in it , as to this poynt , then all the rest . I shall only take two or three more turns upon that wheel of his , on which he is unwearied in running round , and so make an end with them altogether at this time . And first let us see what I. O , saith by way of Concession to us , against himself , about the light in all mens consciences . First , Tr , 1. c. 2. S. t1 . he writeth thus ( viz. ) God declares his Soveraign power and Authority , righteousness and holinesse by the innate or ingrafted light of nature , and principles of the Consciences of men . That indispensible morall obedience which he requireth of us as his creatures subject to his law , is in general thus made known unto us ; Then citing and writing out at large that Text , Rom. 2.14 , 15. For the Gentiles , &c. he goes on thus : By the light which God hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men accompanyed with a morall instinct of good and evill , seconded by that self judgment which he hath placed in us in reference to his own over us , he doth reveale himself unto the Sons of men [ And that we may know and be ascertained that this thing is no deceivable pretence , but that God doth so indeed reveale himself thereby , he adds S. 13. ] The voice of God in nature is effectuall ; it declares it self to be from God by its own light and Authority . There is no need to convince a man by substantiall witnesses that what his conscience speaks it speaks from God , whether it bear testimony to the Being , Righteousness , Power , Omniscience or Holiness of God himself , or whether it call for that morall obedience which is eternally and indispensably due to him , and so shewes forth the work of the Law in the heart , it so speaks & declares it self that without further evidence or reasoning , without the advantage of any considerations , but what are by it self supplyed , [ And then without an outward Ministry , letter , or writing surely , or if it did not , yet the letter without , that came from the light within , is of the lights own supplying ] it discovers its Author from whom it is , and in whose name it speaks : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those common notions and generall presumptions of him & his Authority , that are inlayed in the natures of rationall creatures by the hand of God to this end , that they might make a Revelation of him as to the purposes mentioned , are able to plead their Divine Original without the least contribution of strength or assistance from without [ Thus far I.O. writes the truth of the light within , saving here and there the interposition of that Epithite Naturall ] Thus far have I set down I. Os. words , that all may see how far he accords with them in these words , in the same things about which he Quarrells with the Qua●as not knowing what to make of their Inward word and Light they talke of : which is indeed wholly ( though himselfe fees it not ) excepting in his often undervaluing of the Light within by that name of naturall , as in opposition to the Qua : which otherwise , while he sees it serves his turn so to do against another sort of his Antagonists , he magnifies in words , and makes as honourable with all his might , as the Qua : do , and together with them : He grants that its the voyce of God , a means of the knowledge of God , and of his will , of Divine Originall and Authority , calls for that morall obedience ( A higher matter then he thinks for ) which is eternally and indispensably due to God , speaks in the name of God and from God so infallibly in the heart , that it needs no other evidence , assistance , advantage , &c. ( and then not the letter ) to witnesse that it speakes from God , is his law to which his creatures are to be subject , is ascertain'd to be no deceivable pretence , but that indeed by which God doth reveale himself to the soul of man , that light which God hath indelibly implanted in the minds of men , is accompanyed with a morall instinct of good and evill , seconded with a self-judgment in us in reference to Gods own over us , shewes the work of the Law in the heart , so as they are left wholly inexcusable , who will not learn and know God from thence : neverthelesse ( to go round again ) he pinches it back at first ( after he hath done magnifying it ) with the diminitive termes of the Light of nature , low , dark , obscure , ● winekling light , that scarcely peeps out of the most pernitious darknesse , enlightening mearly in morall matters , duties , morall good and evill , sufficient to leave men without excuse , not save , nor bring them to the true knowledg of God , only that which was given to man at first before he fell , the state of the first man , and at last a thing altogether faigned , a deceivable pretence , grossely imagined , every ones private light making as many Rules as men . That inward light , the Revelation that comes from which is uncertain , dangerous , unprofitable , no way necessary to the knowing of God and his will , therefore to be rejected and detested . A means of the knowledge of God , and of Communion with him , boasted of by the Fanaticks , an addition to the written word of God which is most heavily damned by the Spirit of God , among that of confabulation with Angells and others , id genus furfuris , of the like bran : that which we are sent to that we may get the knowledge of God , or any direction in our duty to him at no time and no where at all by God ; a principle of Revelation most uncertain , fallacious , both as to it self , and what things it reveals ; a meer faculty of the understanding ; I know not what light , of no correspondency with the Scripture and word ; I know not what divine soul of the world mingled in all things , which is Every thing , and truly Nothing ; a light which , however attended to , is in all divine things , as to the utmost end , meerly darknesse and blindnesse it self . These and many more id genus furfuris etfarraginis are the depressive , debasive denominations , whereby I. O. having first advanc'd the light within and law of God in th● heart into its proper place , prerogative , Titles , and Authority , as Gods Vicar on earth ( which Office the Pope and Clergy have long usurped ) as a faithfull witnesse , right reverend Recorder , and subordinate Iudge for God , and between God and man in the Conscience , doth after Thrust it out again from its Throne , Rob it of its Recordership , detrude it from its true Title , Divest it of all its Authority , Digrade it from its Vice-gerentship , turn it down from the Bench to the Bar , and there , like a Iustice of neither Peace nor Truth , pass his scornfull sentence on it , and damn it into utter darkness , among a crue of Counterfeits , fanatical fancies meer Figments , & imaginations , & the whole rabble of such like malefactors & deceivers , as any may see , who having so much skill will be at so much pains as to consult those pieces of his Latine piece , that are to that end here cited in the margent . * Wee see then that though these men agree all together to witnesse against the Truth , yet their witnesse agrees not together within it self , their Assertions assent not , but assault one the other about the self same subject , the light , some saying , as they said of Christ , he is a good man , others nay but he deceiveth the people : One while t is O divinae Originis lumen ! O vox Dei effectualis ! non Hominem sonat , est Dea , aut a Deo certe ; O Lux Dei seipsam declarans , et ●uthoritatem suara , per quam Deus infallibiliter revelat seipsum hominibus ! quid verbis opus est cum Ipsa loquitur ? quid testibus ad extra ad convincedum ? &c. O Lex Dei in corde 〈◊〉 mentibus hominum insita ! ibi loquens , judicans in Nomine Domini , N●men Dei , p●r quod seipsum exhibet cognoscendum , &c. Anon again , in hoc No●ine Domini incipit omne malum , Then t is , O pestis ! O Labes ! O nequitia ! ipsa nequitia nequior . So then Sua ipsorum contra seipsos Pugna de Luce sic se habet : Ex hac parte p●●● et pudicitiaest , illinc petulantia et stuprum : Hine fides est , illinc fraudati : hinc pietas , illinc scelus ; hinc constantia , illinc suror ; hinc certitudo , illinc fail●●lis pretextus ; hinc honestas , illinc turpitudo ; hinc justa , justitia ( adeoque si fieri possit ) justitia justior ; illinc ficta , fictitia , falsa , falsissima , fallaciâ ipsâ fallacior : hinc Dei quidam digitus , seu insculptio quaedam in cordibus , non nisi per Dei quidem ipsius manus , illinc ( Ironice ) Deus nescio quis ? seu forsan Deo quopiam quid melius , aut ipso Diabolo pejus ; hinc penè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , illinc verè nihil , hinc Lux ipsa luce clarior , illinc mera Tenebrae & caecita , adeoque obscuritate ipsa ferè obscurior . One more Iigge of I. O. about the Light of God we testifie to , as one and the same gift or grace of God in all , as to its nature , though different in measure , is this , which is in part toucht on above , and then I leave them all to Dance in the dark all together if they will , till they are as weary , as I am in tracing after them : He may well say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of it , yet verè nihil , for he first makes it every thing , and at last just nothing , as any one may find comparing his first Treatise with his last Tract of Theses : One while he calls it metaphoricall , not pròper ; Otherwhiles proper , not metaphoricall ; One while natural , as opposite to civill , and not morall , spirituall , nor supernaturall ; Otherwhiles and in other respects he makes it civill , morall , spirituall , and in effect supernaturall , as in opposition to naturall ; One while ( Ironically ) some certain divine soul of the world mixt with all things , yea all these things abovesaid , yea all things also , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Otherwhile verè nihil , truly nothing ; One while common to all and universall , but then not saving ; Otherwhile sufficient and saving , but then particular only and peculiar to few , not common nor universall : yea the Light is made little lesse then a Monster of all shapes , a nescio quid ? a certain naturall , supernaturall , civill , morall , spirituall , reall , metaphoricall , sufficient , insufficient , efficacious , ineffectuall , usefull , useless , safe , dangerous , peculiar , common , speciall , generall , particular , universail , Every thing , which when all comes to all is none knowes what , but a meer just Nothing , So here is a Unity , thus parting it self into a Plurality , divided first into a Duality , then turned into a Trinity , then quartered into a Quaternity , then extended into an Universality or certain Omniality , and then as some Nihil in Nil revertens , returning back into a Particularity , and narrowed up nearer into a Neutrality , till it resolve and annihilate it self at last into a very Nullity . Thus the Priest's work , who talk for Self , Is Tangling talk against it Self ; 'Gainst Truth a Prate , a piteous Preachment , That can't make good its own Impeachment . As Dr : Owens Doctrine Does , Who heeds not well which way he Goes , Baxter's , Tomb's , Dansons dances Round , And Round again in th' self same Ground ; It staggers to and fro , and Reels , Skips up and down , and runs on Wheels , Starts aside like some broken Bow , Crosses Christ like Cris X Crosse in th' Row , Whoso can feel in it may Feel As 't were a Wheel within a Wheel : A Net , Gin , Trap a Snare's in It , A Whirlpool , Gulf , Bottomlesse Pit , Wind , Dust , Husk , Chasse , no stable Steeple , A Tale , that takes unstable People , A Toy , a Cloud , Mist , Smoak , a Fogg , No Quakerisme , but some Quavering Bogg ; A Quick-sand , a Quagmire , that Sucks , Who 's in 't his feet out hardly Plucks , Himself who 's In , gets seldome Out , It self 's more seldome In then Out ; It flutters like some blind night Bat , Now here , now there , this way , now That , Now it is One thing , then Another , And now and then nor t' One nor t' Other . Somtimes it 's This , somtimes it 's That , Somtimes it s This , and This , and That , Somtimes 't is either This , or That , Somtimes 't is neither This , nor That , Now This , not th' Other , a non it s Either , Then by and by both Both , and Neither . One while it looks like So , not No , Another while like No , not So , One way it seems or So , or No , Another way , nor No , nor So , Some wayes it shewes both So and No , So 't's a meer endlesse No , and So. Sam : Fisher. SIc O sic Quantas , pate●asque Quotas , Quasque Tu , plenas Babilone Totas , Haud Tibi , at Sancto cuicung ; Notas , Bestia Potas ? Scripta Scriptorum modo multa Notas , Scripta Scripturae modo sacra Notas , Huic tamèn cae cos oculos , Remotas Reddis et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Puncta contendis , literaeque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Esse movendas neque , nec Remotas , Esse nec novas , sed babere Notas Biblia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Esse Scripturas benè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Aut per , aut propter licet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Esle sed mentemque , manusque Lotas Non benè Notas . Diruis nunc quae oedisicas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Esse , vocales , literasque Votas Normam , et has meras dein ' esse ( O Rotas ) Non ita Notas . Perfici per has aliquando Votas Posse vel cunctos , aliquando ( O Rotas ) Neminem hic purum fieri Revotas Posse : Ita Motas . Ebriaris sic , titub●sque ' grotas , Haud dubes nunc , nunc dubitas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( O Sacerdos ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Quî sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Quod scis hoc nescis , quast in Orbe Rotas , Vertis Hûc , Illûc , modo circa Rotas , Fluctuas , curris , modo retro Rotas , Undique Rotas : Usque dum rotas , rotulasque , Rotas , Nectis in Rotis . rotātimque Rotas , Tota dum TENET , tōtätimque Totas OPERA ROTAS . ROTAS OPERA TENET AREPO SATOR Dixi haud magis malus Piscator , ac Tu , ac Tui ( O Sacerdos ) estis p●ssimi Pisces , qui , ni Regeneremini , Rejiciemini in aeternum . In Vi , Via , Vita , Virtute ac Veritate Domini ( si Salvabimini ) Salvetot● . Sam : Fisher. FINIS . Christ's Light SPRINGING , Arising up , shining forth , and displaying it self thorow the whole World , from under that Priestly Darkness ; wherewith it hath been clouded and overcast , by the space of one Thousand two Hundred Sixty years , in this our Antichristian-Christian World. Sect. 1. OUr Testimony , and that Truth to which We bear Testimony , who by those to whom Wo is , forasmuch as they Tremble not at the Word of God , are scornfully stiled Quakers , is no different thing , nor another , but plainly One , and altogether the same , which all the Holy Men , and Prophets of God h●ve have held forth , as also Christ himself , and all his Apostles and Ministers , as many as have spoken ( as they were moved of God ) from the beginning of the world to this very day . 2. For even as They ( whose Testimony who ? even few or none , either believed or received ) so We , who are of her children , of all and only whom Wisdom is justified , give Testimony to Wisdom it self , not the wisdom of this world , nor of the Princes of this world who come to nought , but to that hidden Wisdom , which none of the Princes of this world knew ( for had they known ; they would not Crucifie the Lord of Glory ) the Wisdom of God is a Mystery , even the Light of the Lord God , and Jesus Christ who are Light , and in whom is no darkness at all , yea to that glorious Light that is now arising to enlighten that Holy City , New Ierusalem , where now there is to be no more night , into which nothing shall in any wise enter that defileth . 3. Concerning which Light , Christ himself said to Paul , being now truly converted to it , which he persecuted before , throw the blindness of his mind , I now send thee to the Nations to open their eyes , and to turn them from the darkness to the Light , from the Power of Satan unto God , that they may receive Remission of sins , & an inheritance among those that are sanctified by faith , that is in me (a) 4. Neither was this the business and Ministry , which Paul onely received of God , that he might fulfil it : but Iohn al●o testines that this was the Message , which he together with the rest of Christ Ministers , had received from Ch●ist himself to declare , which was also f●om the beginning , not any new thing , ( however it might seem new , as being clouded till the darkness was past , and the true Light shined again out of the darkness that sometime clouded it ) but the old thing which was from the beginning , namely that God is Light , and in him is no darkness at all , and that If we say we have fellowship with him , and walk in darkness , we lie & do not the truth , but if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have mutual fellowship with him , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin , (b) moreover that who saith he is in the light , and hateth his brother is in darkness even until now . 5. Concerning which Light of God , of which the Scripture every where speaketh , and from which inlightning the Penmen thereof the Scripture it self was given forth , which also was , which also shined in the heart of man long befere the Scriptures were , we together with the Scripture & the writers thereof do testify this self same thing , namely that a certain measure certain beams were of old , and now are given of God in the conscience of every of them to the sons of men , who although God made them after his own Image , upright & blameless , have yet sought out to themselves , both various and vain inventions , and corrupted their wayes and erred ; and , as to any help they can have from themselves , are in a manner wholly perished from the true God , & from the true knowledge of him , whom truly to know is Life Eternal , and from all Communion with him , to shine in their dark heart , as a Light in a dark place , & to bring them back through the cond●mnation of their evill deeds , word ; , and thoughts , and of that whole Chaos of confusion and corruption that came in by the fall , which condemnation this Light will bring on all that take good heed to it , and through the mortification of that old man , and body , as well as of death , as sin , with all its earthly members , and in a word of all whatever in man is contrary to the Image and Will of God , and turn them back unto God , unto that primitive state of purity , righteousness and innocency , from which they departed to worship Images in their own imaginations , to know , and to worship the true God , who is a Spirit , truly in Spirit & in Truth , with which worship onely the Lord is worshipped according to his will , and lastly to enjoy such Spiritual Peace & Communion with him , as none are by any means possible ( as is aforesaid ) capable of , while they are alienated from him , by the darkness of iniquity , & while they remain in their Transgression incorrigible , and unconverted . 6. (c) For both Iews and Gentiles , ( as it is written ) are concluded all under sin , there is not one Righteous , no not one , there is none that under standeth , there is none that seeketh after God , they are all gone out of the way , they are altogether become unprofitable , there is none that doth good , no not one ; their throat is an open Sepulchre , with their tongues they have used deceit , the poyson of Asps is under their lips , their mouth is full of cursing , and bitterness , their feet is swift to shed blood , wasting , and misery is in their wayes , and the way of peace they have not known , there is no fear of God before their eyes , so that every mouth is stopped , and the whole world become guilty before God , for al have sinned and f●ll short of the glory of God. 7. This is the state of all ma●k●nd seperated by the fall from the Light into the darkness , among whom even all of what oever Sex , Nation , Language Condition or Age ( at least that is capable to discern between good and evil ) I say all may say within themselves we are lost , we are gone down headlong into the utmost darkness ; into extream damnation from God : Neither is their any other way to life exhibited but by Iesus Christ the Light of the world , by some measure of Light at least shining from himself , enlightening ( as it 's said ) every man that comes into the world , shining in darkness , in the dark consciences of men , though the darkness comprehend it not holding by the hand also ; & as it were leading by the hand those , that being in nared in chains of darkness , & thrust down into the Pit , do not winke with their eyes , to the further blinding of them , but according to the councel of Christ himself , believe in the Light whilst they have it , that they may become children of the Light : for I am the Light of the world ( saith Christ ) He that followeth me shall not walk in darkness , but shall have the Light of Life ; also I am come a Light into the world that whosoever believeth in me , may not remain in darkness ; [e] I came not to damn the world , but to save the world . 8. In this manner therefore is Christ the Salvation of the world , as he is the Light of the world , destroying the works of the Devil , who hath wrought in the darkness to the setting up of a Principality , and a Kingdom to himself in the hearts of men , and redeeming men from the power of the Prince of the darkness of this world unto God , who is Light , and to see Light , even the Light of life in his Light. [f] 9. In like manner doth the Prophet Isaiah affirm Christ to be given of God for a Covenant to the people , for a light to the Nations to open the blind eyes , and to bring out of Prison them that sit in darkness even the blind which have eyes , and see not [g] and after him Paul testifieth that Christ was set as a Light to the Nations that he might be the Lords Salvation to the ends of the earth . Simeon also speaking by the holy Spirit of the child Iesus calls him that Salvation of his , which the Lord had prepared before the face of all people , to be a Light to lighten the Nations and the glory of his people Israel . [h] 10. In as much therefore as Christ is the light of the world , he is the Saviour of the world , and so far only are men saved by him as they believe in him , who is the Light , and in that Light wherewith he doth enlighten every man in his own conscience , and set themselves to walk after it , which leads no man into iniquity , and so far forth are all men liable to condemnation before God , as they walk not in this , which is in them , howbeit not consenting to any , but testifying against all iniquiry , even the least , and also reproving and condemning it , even in them , who are not in it , but walking contrary to it , in the darkness . 11. For although God in his great love gave his Son for a Light , not that he might damn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , and be that believeth in him is not condemned , yet he that believeth 〈◊〉 is condemned already , and this is the condemnation , that Light is come into the world , into the inmost consciences of men , there manifesting good and evill ; but men love the darkness rather then the Light , because their deeds are evill ; for he that doth evill harsth the Light , neither cometh to the Light , ●ast his deeds should be reproved , but who so doth truth he cometh to the Light , what his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in God. [i] 12. And al though all that obtain justification , are justified freely , by the grace of the Lord through the Redemption that is made in Iesus Christ alone ( Yea , cursed be he , and cursed will he be that seeks for justification any other way , for he who is the Light of the world , is also that Corner stone , which ( however it be set at nought by a thousand and thousand of the 〈◊〉 , is yet made the head of the corner ; neither is there salvation in any other , nor is there any other name save that of Christ , the Light , under heaven given among men whereby they must be saved ) [k] Nevertheless no further is any man accepted of God , or justified by Christ , or the grace of God in Christ , then as he is directed by Christ the Light , and is by the grace of God , by that , inward with 〈◊〉 of God by the light of God and Christ in his conscience , which is given of God for this very end , that it may teach and lead , taught and led unto repentance from the unfruitfull works of darkness . 13. For this Light shewes the riches of the goodness , and long suffering , and forbearance of him who is long suffering to-us-ward , not will that any should perish , but that all should come to us by repentance , & is that very grace of God bringing Salvation that hath appeared to all men , teaching all that will learn what it teacheth , that denying ungodlyness , and worldly lusts they should live soberlys righteously and godly in this 〈◊〉 world , which kind of life will otherwise be to late to begin to live in the world to come , which grace being received in vain , how much more being despised , by the hardness of the heart refusing to repent , wrath is treasured up against the day of wrath , and the revelation of the righteous judgement of God , who will render unto every one according to his works , to them , who by patient continuance in well doing , seek for glory and immortality , eternall life , but unto them that are contentious , and obey not the truth , but obey unrighteousnes , indignation and wrath : For [l] tribulation and anguish is to come upon every soul of man that worketh evill ; but glory honour and peace to every one that worketh good hath to the Jew and also to the Greek : for there is no respect of persons with God ; but in every Nation he that ●ea●eth him , and manketh righteousness , is accepted with him , but the wicked and him that loveth violence , his soul rateth . 14. And howsoever the world which is call'd Christian , together with the manifold Sects , Professors , and meerly nominal Christians and Ministers thereof , may dream that they have Christ their Redeemer , very often calling him , Lord , Iesus continuing in the mean time in all disobedience to his Light , yet the foundation of the Lord standeth sure having this Seal the Lord knoweth who are his , and let every one that nameth the of Christ depart from iniquity . 15. For the day of the Lord draweth nigh wherein both every man and his deeds shall be made manifest , for the day which is the Light shall declare them , for they shall be revealed by fire , and the fire shall try every mans works of what sort they are ; and in that day all those D●eamers shall be awakened , and shall know that as concerning the truth they have erred far from the mark , and that not every one that saith unto Christ , Lord , Lord , shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven , but he that doth what Christ saith , and what the will is of his Father wh●ch is in heaven , and though they have prophecyed in his name , and done great things , nevertheless for as much as they departed not from iniquity , they shall be doom'd from Christ with D●part from me , ye workers of iniquity , I know you not . 16. Then shall the whole multitude of Transgressors of the Law i. e. of the Light of God in the conscience by which all , even those that have not the Law written in an outward letter , are a Law to themselves , having the work of the Law written in their hearts , that the Lamb of God came not to tolerate , but to take away the sin of the world , and that Iesus was sent , not to give liberty to sin , but to set his people at liberty from their sins , and that in the greatest liberty , wherwith Christ freeth his people , there is the least licence , and that the Father having raised up his Son hath sent him to blesse men , they turning away every one of them from his iniquitie : , & that those blessed ones , to whom the the Lord imputeth not sin , wh●se iniquities a●e forgiven , & whose sin is covered , are such in whose Spirit there is no guile , and that there is in no wise any remission of sins unto those , who still accustome themselves to a dayly commission of them . [m] 17. Moreover the great and terrible day of the Lord now cometh , wherein the Light , which is risen in the con●ciences of men , shall dayly , more and more clearly shine forth , in which also the ●he book of conscience must be opened , that ●ut of it all men may be judged according to all things that are written therein , where , by the Light , which is Gods faithfull witness , all sin is written down in the sight of God , as with a Pen of Iron ; in which day , by the Light , God will come night to us to judgement ; and then the righteousness , grace and mercy of God shall be revealed towards all , who , standing still in his Light , wait for him to come as a Redeemer to them from their impieries , that they may be saved from the wrath , that is to come upon all the children of disobedience , by which light the wrath of God shall be manifested from Heaven in their own con●ciences against all ungodliness & unrighteousness of men , who retain the Truth in unrighteousness ; in which day God will reign down upon the wicked , Snares , Fire , Brunstone , and an horrible tempest , all which things shall be the portion of their Cup. 18. Moreover in the hand of God there is now a cup and the Wine thereof is Red , and it is full of mixture , and he poureth one of the same , and Iudgment is begun at the House of God , and God hath begun to bring evil upon the people , upon whom his Name is written , and his Nature & Image is imprinted ; & they , whose portion it is not , in such a measure as they have drunk of the Cup of abomination and fornication , have drunk also of the Cup of indignation and wrath , before they could take the Cup of Salvation , and prai●e the name of the Lord , in no wise therefore shall the wicked go unpunished , but the worshippers of the Beast , and those that receive his image must drink also of this wine , which is poured one of the mixture into the cup of his indignation , and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy Angells , and of the Lamb : yea , the very dregs hereof , the top whereof the Children of the Light and of the Day have tasted , the Children of the Night and of the Darkness , that is all the wicked ones of the earth shall drink and wring them out . 19. Wherefore whilst in the long suffering of God opportunity is not wanting unto you , whilst the day of your Visitation is neer unto you from God , let my councell be accepted of you All ; and turn your selves to the light of Christ in your own consciences , and take councell thereat for ever , which seriously and sincerely minding , you shall be taught by Christ himself , whose Testimony to you , from heaven , that is , to your both externall , internall and eternall Peace and Salvation , and shall be brought to Christ himself , and to see him , and his Father from both whom it comes , to the saving knowledg of whom there can be no coming any other way whatsoever ; for as the Sun of this outward world is not seen , but by that Light which flows from it self unto us , so neither is the Sun of righteousnesse , but by that measure of Light ( how little soever it be ) that shines from him in the heart . 20. For although the Scripture which speakes of the Light , and directs to the Light maketh mention of the Father and of the Son , so that there ye may read of them , and speak of them also , according to what ye there read ; yet this the Scripture it self witnesseth that none can know either the Father or the Son , but he to whom the Father and the Son do mutually reveal each the other , whose revelation also is made within (n) for that which may be known of God , sufficient to Salvation is manifest in men ( saith Paul ) for God doth manifest it in them and the Gospell is preached in every creature which is under heaven (o) by the Light of God in the conscience , so that they are left inexcusable before God ( who else would be excusable & blameless ) forasmuch as though they know God , yet they glorify him not as God , neither like to retain God in their knowledge , but knowing the judgement of God , that they which do such things , as they do , are worthy of death , yet not onely do the same , but have pleasure in those that do them . 21. In the mean while we do not affirm Christ himself to be in all men , who yet is known to be in all that are not Reprobates , as that hope of glory ; nevertheless all ( for there is no difference , but what is made by different degrees of light , which do not vary the nature of the thing ) have some measure or other of his Light at least one Talent committed to them , that they may trade therewith to profit withall , which using well , and doubling they have entrance into the joy of their Lord , but hiding of which and not gaining therewith , they shall be thrust out at last from the light they have , into the utter darkness , where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth : This Light therefore shines in all even the heathe● , in some measure , although not in all in the same measure . 22. To the measure of which Light of Christ , which in you is , you will do well to take heed while you have it , as unto a light shining in a dark place , to give you the knowledge of your Salvation , and guide your feet in the way of peace , and that you may find true rest to your burdened and wearied souls , and lest darkness come upon you , for he that walketh in darkness , knoweth not whether he goeth , nor at what he stumbles . 23. This Light is the Law of God ( for the law is light saith the wise man (p) ) written not with Luke , but with the Spirit of the living God , not in tables of stone ( as of old for a figure hereof , by the finger of God ) but in fleshly tables of the heart , in which may be read and understood not onely ( as in the Scripture and the Law without ) the right , that is , what you should do and should be , but the fact also , that is , what you do , and what you are : For to know Thy self , whom if thou knowst not , thou knowst not Christ , whom if thou knowst not , it s no profit to thee to know other things , this comes no other way then by an inward beholding of thy self in that more inward looking-glass , namely the light of Christ , by which , God shines in the conscience , which light leads those that follow it to hear that true and living word of God , of which the Scripture declares , (q) that its powerfull and mighty , and sharper then any two-edged Sword , piercing even to the dividing of the Soul and Spirit , and of the marrow and reines , discerning the thoughts and cogitations of the heart , before which , all things are naked & bare ; that it is as fire , and as an hammer , breaking the Rocks in pieces , and causing all things to tremble at the hearing thereof ; which was in the beginning , before the Scripture was , which testifies of it , concerning which , the Scripture both Old & New doth truly testify , it 's not far off , but nigh in the heart and mouth , that thou maist do it , even that very word of Faith the Apostles Preached . 24. This light is that good & old way , Older than the Eldest among the Sects of this age , whether of Iewes or Christians , who ( all in the mean time , namely , both Catholiks , and Lutherans , and Calvinists , & Baptists , &c. every one professing themselves to be the Antient est ) have divided the Grand Tree of the old Roman Church , into so many branches , lesser boughs , and little twigs , that the whole Body thereof , wil ere long be sick even unto death , & She who hath been so long the Mother of so many children , is almost now devoured of Her own children . This light ( I say ) is that Antient way , unto which , God by the Prophet Ieremiah called back the Israelites , when degenerated from God into their own traditions , saying , stand in the wayes and see , and ask for the Antient paths , where i that good way , walk therein , and you shall find rest unto your souls , but they said , We will not walk therein ; hearken to the voice of the Trumpet , but they said , We will not hearken . (r) 25. This Light is a Teacher that cannot deceive , for it is the Testimony of God , which is greater than the Testimony of man ; nor yet can it flatter , for it reproves every one justly , not justifying the wicked , and condemning the Innocent , but telling every one the Truth concerning himself directly as the case is , and no otherwise , accusing , and excusing then God himself , from whom it is , for if by that which is shining from God in thee thy own heart condemns thee , there is no God without that holds thee guiltless ; but when by that thy heart condemns thee not , then maist thou have boldness before God. (s) 26. Finally this Light is that perfect law of Liberty , of which whoso is a hearer , and not a doer , he is like a man that beholds his natural face in a glass , which so soon as ever he hath beheld , and is gone away , he straitway forgets what manner of man he was , but whoso looketh into it , and continueth therein , and is not a forgetful , and an idle bearer , but a doer of the work , this man shall be blessed in his deed . (t) Henceforth therefore , who ere thou art , who wouldst know thy self , do not seek thy self out of thy self , but behold thy self , within in that inward Light , which inwardly gives the di●cerning , not only of the good and perfect mind , and will of God concerning thee , but also of thy own mind , and of thy whole self , and that so perfectly , that concerning these , and even all things pertaining to the Salvation of the Soul , and the Kingdom of God , with the Righteousness thereof , and what Haereditary right thou hast therein , which is nigh wch is within ( saith Christ to the Pharisees , (v) who never entred into it ) there is no need that thou shouldst go forth of thy self , in order to a further evidence , and understanding of them : yea thou knowest more than enough already , if of the good will of God thou knowest more than thou livest up to , for what good is only known , and not done , tends only unto thy condemnation : In all openness and plainness , and not in knowing what is to be done , but in doing what is already known stands the Salvation of the Sons of men . 28. Moreover what hinders ( unless they be delighted in the blinding of their own eyes , the stopping of their eares , and the hardning of their hearts , & in rejecting the councell of God to their own perdition ) but that the wicked may come to the life of God , from which they stand estranged ? for the way to that life , howere it 's narrower and straiter by reason of the Cross of Christ , which is dayly to be taken up by those that follow him , then that wide and broad way that leads to destruction , for which cause it is that so many enter in by this , and so few by the other , yet is , together with that which tends unto death , so plainly made manifest by the Light that ( unless it be to such as are willingly ignorant ) it cannot easily be hidden : 29. For the fruits of the Spirit or works of the Light which are righteousness , love , goodnes , faith , gentlenes , sobriety , temperance , chastity , which who so brings forth to God lives with God , and sees God , are manifest to every one that doth not wink against the Light in his own conscience ; and the works of darkness or of the flesh , such as are adultery , fornication , uncleannes , lascivicusness , idolatry , witch-craft , hatred , variance , emulation , wrath , strife , seditions , heresies , envy , murders , drunkenness , revellings , and such like , which whoeever doth shall never enter into the Kingdom of God , are manifest ( saith the Scripture , [w] ) and that not so much by the Scripture , as by the Light to which the Scripture testifies , and by which they were manifest in the consciences of men , before the Scripture was and are made manifest at this day where the Scripture is not , by which also they would have been made manifest if the Scripture had never been : For all things that are reproved ( saith the Spirit , in the Scripture , are made manifest by the Light , for whatsoever doth make manifest is Light. 30. To this therefore all apply your minds , to this come , in this walk and continually abide , even in the Spirit of God , which reproveth the world , and comforteth the Saints called , redeemed , and chosen out of the world : Here stand continually , that ye may both know your selves , and comprehend false Spirits with the works and children of darkness , who are comprehended and discerned by the Spirit , by the Light , although these comprehend neither it , nor its children ; and that grace , mercy and peace , may be multiplyed to you from God the Father , and from Iesus Christ , whose councell in the conscience , whosoever hearkens to shall dwell safely , and shall be quiet from even the fear of evil : For this is a Brazen wall to a man to be inwardly conscious to himself of no evill , not to wax pale at the sense of any crime . 31. But who so turnes aside from the Light , leaving the pathes of righteousness to walk in the wayes of darkness , as he is inwardly condemned of himself , so both Errour & Terrour do meet him at every turn , so that howbeit he carryes outwardly a shew of laughter and mirth , yet he goes often grievously griped , and within waxes pale at the sense of that , which the Wife of his own bosome is ignorant of . 32. All these things abovesaid , which at first were written in Latine more privately , for the sake and use of a singular , eminent Friend in Germany , are now with no other alteration then the case requires , not without God himself also moving thereunto , given forth more publikely , as well in English as in Latine , in service to you ( O Academians ) and all others to whom we are ready ( according to Peters councell ) to render a reason of the faith , which is in us , with meekness and fear , having a good conscience ; and to this end that both ye , whose eares being turn'd away from the Truth are turned unto Fables , & ye , who itching , and attending to no other business then telling , and hearing some new thing , suppose we bring certain strange and new doctrines to your eares , may know that we bring no new things , but all the old things , even the self-fame , which by Gods Ministers were uttered from the very beginning ; which al o we know either to your Salvation , or greater Condemnation your selves shall once acknowledge even for ever . 33. Of which yet we are not slack to warn , & by admonition to awaken you , forasmuch as though to say the same things that were said before , it s not grievous to us , yet for you it 's safe , who , by over much incogitancy , & inadvertency ( I may truly say ) are ignorant of what ye know . 34. Which truly if in the same light , and with the same sincere Spirit , with which they were written , they may be throughly peru●ed by any , it shall repent neither me to have written , nor you to have read what is here written . 35. But if otherwise , and if this friendly wo●d of your salvation shall stir up in you the Spirit of enmity & malignity , and receive from you rather an ignominious repulse , then an healthfull hearkening thereunto , it shall please me enough that in this work I have pleased God , & am clear of the blood of your souls , and ye at last shall remember at least ( yet not without repentance , though too late ) that ye were warned from God. By an English man , who is a Friend , and lover of your Souls . Sam. Fisher. Lux Christi EMERGENS , Oriens , effulgens , ac seipsam expandens per universum Terrarum Orbem e Tenebris Sacerdotalibus ; quibuscum cooperra , nec non offusa suerit , per mille ducentos sexaginta annos , in hoc Orbe nostro Antichristi-Christiano . Sect. 1. TEstimonium nostrum , & Veritas cui Testamur Nos , qui ab iis , quibus Vae est quia non tremunt ad verbum Domini , nominamur Ironice Quakers , non est alierium quoddam , nec aliud , sed plane unum , ac omnino idem cum illo , quod exhibuerunt omnes Sancti viri , ac Prophetae Dei ; perinde ac Christus ipse , nec non omnes ejus Apostoli , ac Ministri , quotquot ( quemadmodum a Deo moti erant ) loquuti sunt a seculo in hunc usque diem . 2. Quemadmodum enim Ipsi ( quorum Testimonium quis ? Vel duo , vel nem● credidit , ●ut recepit ) ita & Nos , qui sumus ex filiis suis , a quibus omnibus , & solis justificata est Sapientia , Sapientiae ipsi Testimonium damus ; non seculi hujus , nec Principum seculi hujus , qui abolendi , sunt , sed occultae illi , quam nemo Principum seculi hu●us cognovit ( si enim cognoovissent , Dominum gloriae nequaquam Crucifigerent ) Sapientiae Dei in mysterio , etiam luci Domini Dei , ac Jesu Christi , qui Lux sunt & apud quos non dantur tenebrae , ●o luci illi gloriosae jam orienti ad illustrandam Civitatem illam Sanctam , Jerosolimam novam , ubi nunc non amplius erit nox , in quam nequaquam intrabit qui●quam quod inquinat . 3. De qua luce dicit Jesus ipse Paulo ad hanc , quam olim praementis caecitate persequebatur , jam vere converso ; ad gentes te nunc mitto , ut aperias oculos eorum , & convertas eos a tenebris ad lucem , & a potestare Satanae ad Deum , ut remissionem peccatorum accipiant , & sortem inter Sanctificatos per fidem , quae est in me . (a) 4. Nec hoc fuit Pauli solius negotium , & Ministerium a Deo receptum ut perageret , s●d & Johannes testatur hunc esse Nuncium ipsum , quem ipse cum reliquis ex . Christi Ministris ab ipso ad renunt'andum accepisser , quod etiam erat a Principio , non no vum quid ( quomodocunque novum videri po●uit , ut quod obnubilibatu● priusquam tenebrae preteriissent , & e tenebris vera lux luxisset ) verum vetus , quod erat a Principio , nempe Deum esse lucem , nec tenebras in eo esse ullas , & si dixerimus nos Communionem habere cum eo in tenebris ambulances , nos non sincere agere , sed mentiri ; sin in luce ambulantes , sicut ipse est in luce , Communionem nos habere cum eo mutuam , & sanguinem Iesu Christi filii ejus mundare nos ob omni peccato ; (b) quinetiam qui dicit se esse in luce , & fratrem suum odit , in tenebris esse usque adhuc . 5. De qua Luce Dei , de qua undequaque loquitur Scriptura , & a qua illuminante Manuscriptores e●us Scriptura etiam ipsa fuit edita , quaeque fuit , quaeque fulsit in corde hominis l●ge ante Scripturae errant , nos una cum Scriptura , & Scriptoribus ejus hoc idem , hoc ipsum Testamur , nempe mensuram quandam , radios quosdam hujus in uniuscujusque conscientia fuisse olim , & nuns esse a Deo datos filiis hominum , qui omnes , etiamsi ad imaginem suam hos rectos fecit Deus & inculpatos , quae siverunt sibi ipsis tam varias , quam vanas inventiones , & corruperunt vias suas , & a vero Deo , & a vera ipsius cognitone , quem vere cognoscere est vita eterna , & ab omni cum cum eo Communione erraverunt , ac ( quoad omne a seipsis auxilium ) penitus perierunt , ad lucendum in cordibus suis opacis , ut in obscuro loco lucerna & per condemnationem suorum operum , verborum , ac cogitationum maarim , ac tot us ipsius Chaos consusionis , & corruptionis per lapsum subreptae , quam condemnationem lux haec adferet in omnibus eam bene animadvertentibus , nec non per mortificationem veteris illius hominis , ac tam mortis , ●uam peccati corporis cum terrestribus ejus membris , ac revera omnis , quodcunque in hominibus Dei imagini , ac voluntati est contrarium , ad reducendum , & retrovertendum eos ad Deum , ad primitivum illum puritatis justitiae , ac innocentiae statum , a quo ad colendas imagines per imaginationes suas decesse●unt , ad cognoscendum , & colendum verum Deum , qui Spiritus est , vere in Spiritu , & veritate , cujusmodi Adoratione sola ad beneplacitum suum Adoratur Dominus , ac denique ad fruendum tali cum ipso tum Pace , tum Communione spirituali , qualis nullo moda p●ssibili ( ut praedictum est ) capaces sunt aliqui , dum al errantur ab●eo per tenebras iniquitatis , & dum sint in transgressione manentes immorige●i , ac inconversi . 6. Tam Iudaei enim quam gentes ( sicut Scriptum est ) (c) conclusi sunt omnes sub peccato , non est justus , ne quidem unus , non est qui intelligat , non est qui exquirat Deum ; omnes deflexerunt simul inutiles factisunt , non est qui faciat quod bonum est , non est usque ad unum : Sepulchrum apertum guttur eorum , linguis suis ad dolum usi 〈◊〉 , venenum Aspidum ●ub labiis eorum , os eorum diris & amarulentia plenum est , veloces sunt pedes eorum ad effundendum sanguinem , divastatio , & mileria in viis eorum , & viam pacis non cognoverunt , non est timor Dei coram oculis eorum , ita ut omne os obstruitur , et totus mundus coram Deo in reatum incidit , omnes enim peccaverunt , ac deficiuntur gloria Dei. 7. Hic est status totius Humani generis per deflectionem ex luce in tenebras a Deo seperati , aqud quos omnes cujuscunque Sexus , Gentis , Linguae , Conditionis , Aetatis ( saltem ad di●t inguendum inter bonum & malum capacis ) omnes ( inquam ) Imus , Imus precipites sibi dicant in tenebras extimas , in extremam a Deo Damnationen : 〈◊〉 daturalia aliqua via ad salutem , nisi per Jesum Christum , mundi Lucem , per mensuram aliqua●em lucis ab ipso effulgentem , illuminantem ( ut dic●ur ) [d] unumquemque hominem venientem in mundum , in tenebris lucentem , in tenebrosis hominum mentibus , licet tenebrae eam non comprehendunt , manu-tenentem etiam , & manu-ducentem eos , qui catenis caliginis illaqueati , & in Tartarum detrusi suis ips●rum oculis , ad ulteriorem eorum excaecationem , non connivent , sed secundum Christi ipsius concilium , dum lucem habent credunt in lucem , ut Filli lucis frant : Ego enim sum Lux illa mundi ( inquit christus ) qui sequitur me●non ambulavit in tenebris , sed habebit lucem vitae : Itidem ego Lux in mundum veni , ut quisquis credit in me in tenebris , non maneat , [e] non veni ut damnem mundum , sed ut servem mundum . 8. Hoc modo itaque Christus est Salus mundi , ut est lux muudi destruens opera Diaboli , qui in tenebris operatus est ad erigendum sibi regnum , & principatum in cordibus hominum , & redimens a potentia Principis Tenebrarum hujus seculi ad Deum , qui est Lux & ad videndum lucem , etiam lucem vitae in luce sua . [f] 9. Eodem plane modo dicit Esaias Propheta Christum fuisse a Deo traditum in faedus populi , in lucem gentium , ad aperiendum caecos oculos , ad extrahendum e carcere sedentes in tenebris , etiam caecos , qui oculos habent , sed non vident , [g] Et post illum testatur Paulus Christum constitutum fuisse lucem gentibus , ut sit saluti a Domino ad extremitates terrae , nec non Simeon , per Spiritum sanctum de Jesu puerulo 〈…〉 epum salurem-illam suam , quam 〈◊〉 . Dominus in oculis 〈◊〉 putorum , ●umen deregendum gentibus , & gloria●h populi sui Israelis . [h] 10. 〈…〉 Christus est Lux mundr est mundir Salvator , do eatenus solum per ipsum se●ventur homines , qua●enus in hunclipsum , ●qut● est Lux , & in ipsam Lucem , qua 〈◊〉 in 〈…〉 illustrat , credunt , 〈…〉 neminem in nequitium ducit ambulare seipfos sistunt ; ac eo usque corams Deo condemnationi obnox●i sunt omnes● 〈◊〉 usque in hac non ambulant , qua in illis est , non alacui consentiens 〈…〉 contra omnem , vel minimam , 〈◊〉 testans , eamque reda●guens , & condemnans , is in illis ipsis , qui non in illa suut , sed contra eam in tenebris ambulantes . 11. Quamvis 〈…〉 su● de dito Deus 〈…〉 Lucem non ut damnet mundum 〈◊〉 mundus per eum servetur , & qui credit in cum non condemnatur , qui tamem non credit vel jam condemnatus est● ; & haec est condemnatio , quod 〈◊〉 venit in mundum 〈◊〉 hominum conscientias , 〈◊〉 & malum manifestans , sed deligunt homines potius tenebras quam ●lucem , quia opera eorum sunt mala ; quisquis enim quae mala sunt agit , odit lucem , nec●venit ad ●lucem , me redarguantur opera ipsius , qui vero veritatem 〈…〉 Aut manifesta fiant opera ipsus quod sunt in Deo operata . [i] 12. Quamvis etiam 〈…〉 obtinent , 〈…〉 gratia Domini , 〈…〉 Jesu Christo 〈…〉 thema , sit , & Amathema●erit , qui●justificationem aliunde quaerit , hio●enim , qui est Lux mundi , est etium Lapisille Angularis , quantumvis pranibilo habitus a millies mille aedificantibus , qui factus est caput Anguli , nec est in alio quoquam alus , nec aliud nomen est , praeterquam Christi , Lucis , sub colodatum inter homines per quod oporteat eos fervati ) [k] verunt amen haud ultrevius quispiam a Deo accipitur , aut per Christum , seuper gratiam Dei in Christo justificatur , quam per Christum lucem dirigitur , & per gratiam Dei , per testem illum Dei internum pe●●● ducem Dei , & Christi in conscientia sua , vel imbancfinem a Deo dat●m , ut doceat , & ducat , docetur , & ducitur ad resipiscentiam ab operibus tebrarum infrugiferis . 13. Haec lux enim oftendit divitias benignitatis , ac tolerantiae , ac lenitatisejus , qui pat●enti est animo erga nos , non volens ullos perire , sed omnes ventre ad resipiscentiam , & est ipsa Dei gratia , quae illuxit quibusvis saluritera , & erudiens omnes , qui discent quod docet , ut , abnegata impietate , & mundanis cupiditatibus , temperanter , & juste , & pie vi 〈◊〉 in praesenti hoc seculo , cujusmodi vi●usera nimos cri●aliter in futuro ; qua gratia frustra recepta , quanto magis aspernata , per duritiem cordis recipi cere repudientis , thesaurus 〈◊〉 reconditu in diem irae , & revelationem justi judicii Dei , qui reddet uniduique secundum opera ipsius , 〈◊〉 , qui , per patientiam in bonis openibus , quaerunt gloriam & honorem & incorruptibilitatem , vitam eternam ; ixosis vero & veritatinon assen●ientibus , obsequentibus , autem in justir 〈…〉 : [l] 〈…〉 hominis perpetrantis malum ; gloria vero , honor , & pax cuivis bonum bene facienti 〈…〉 etiam Graeco ; non e 〈◊〉 est personarum acceptio apud Deum , fed on quavis igente , qui timet eum , & operam 〈◊〉 justitiae acceptus est ei , improbum vero , & amantem violentiam odit anima sua . 14. Et quantumcunque sommi at mundus , qui dicitur Christianus , cum multifariis ejus Sectis , professoribus , ac ( nomine tenus ) Christianis , ac Ministris , se Christum habere Redemptorem suum , non rare eum vocantibus . Dominum , Iesum , manentibus interim in omni luct suae in bedienta , fundamentum tamen Domini stat solidum , habens Sigillum hoc , novit Dominus qui sui sunt , & quis quis nominat nomen Christi abscedat ab iniquitate . 15. Dies enim Domini appropinquat in quo tum quisque , tum cujus que opera manifesta fient , Dies enim qui Lux est , declarabit , nam per ignem revelabuntur , & cujusque opera qualia sunt ignis probabit , & in Dio illo expergesacti suerint omnes isti somno Sopiti , & agnoscent se circa veritatem aberrasse a scopo , & quod non quisquis dicit Christo , Domine , Domine introibit regnum caelorum , sed qui sacit quod dicit Christus , quod vult Pater ejus , qui in caelis est ; & etiamsi in nomine ejus propheta runt , & magna egerunt , nihilominus siquidem non decesserunt ab iniquitate , expulsi erunt a Christo cum Di●cedite a me , non novi vos qui transgressionem operamini . 16. Tunc certo sciet tota cobor● transgressorum legis , i. e. lucis Dei in conscientia , per quam omnes , vel ipsi , qui non habent legem externe conscripram , fibi ipsis sunti lex , thabentes opus legis Scriptum in cordibus , venisse Agnum Dei , non ad tolerandum , sed ad tollendum peccatum mundi , & missum suisse I●sum , non ad libertatem dandum p●ccato , sed ad liberandum populum suum ex peccatis , & in maxima libertate , quacum Christus suos l●berat , esse minimam licentiam , & patrem misisse su ciratum filium suum ad benedicendum hominibus , unoquoque avertente a parvitatibus suis , & beatos illos , quibus Deus non imputat peccatum , quorum remissae sunt iniquitates , quorum obtecta sunt peccata , esse tales in quorum spiritu dolus non , est , & nequaquan esse remissionem pecca●orum illis , qui ad quoridianum eorum commissionem seipsos assuefaciunt . [m] 17. Qu●netiam Magnusille & tertibilis Dies Domini jam advenit , in quo lux , quae orta est in conscientiis hominum , magis ac magis quotidie elucescet , in quo liber etiam conscientiae aperiendus est , ut ex illo judicentur omnes secundum omnia , quae ibi Scripta sunt , ubi per lucem , quae est testis Dei fidelis , peccatum omne inscribitur in conspectu Dei tanquam cum penna ferrea , in quo per lucem prope nobis veniet Deus ad judicium , & revelabitur justilia , gratia , & miserecordia Dei in omnes , qu● , in luce sua sistentes , expectant eum venturum liberatorem eis ab impietatibus , ut salvi fiant ab ira illa ventura in omnes inobedientiae filios , per quam patebit ira Deie Caelo , in ipsorum conscientiis , adversus omnem impietatem , & injustitiam hominum , quiveritatem injuste detineant : In quo die pluet Deus in improbos laqueos , ignem , sulphur , & horribilem procellam , hujusmodi omnia erunt portio eorum poculi . 18. Quinimo , in manu Dei nunc est poculum , & vinum ejus est rubrum , & meri plenum est , & ex eodem effundit , & incepit judicium apud Domum Dei , & incepit Deus malum in●ligere in populum , cui inscribitur nomen suum , & imprimitur sua Natura , & Imago , & ipsi , quorum portio nequaquam est , in quantum biberunt ex poculo abominationis , & fornicationis , biberunt tantum ex poculo indignationis , & excandescentiae , prius quam accipere possent poculum salutis , & laudare nomen Dei ; nequaquam itaque impuniti abibunt improbi , verum Adorators Bestiae , & imaginem ejus Accipientes bibent quoque ex hoc vmo , ex mero insuso in poculum excandescentiae ipsius , & torquebuntur sulphure , & igne in conspectu Angelorum , Sanctorum & Agni ; Imo foeces hujus , de cujus summitatibus gustaverunt Filii Lucis & Diei , Filii Noctis & Tenebrarum , hoc est , omnes improbi terrae , & bibent , & extroquebunt . 19. Quamobrem dum in longanimitate Dei non deest vobis opportunitas , dum a Deo adest vobis dies Visitationis vestrae , concilium hoc nostrum capiatis Omnes , & dehinc convertatis vos-met ipsos ad Lucem Christi in vestris ipsorum conscientiis , & exinde consilium capiatis in eternum , quam se io & sincere animadvertentes a Christo ipso , cujus Testimonium vobis de Coelo haec est , ad pacem , & salutem vestram tum Externam , tum Internam , tum Eternam dedocibimini , & ad Christum ipsum , & ad videndum eum , & Patrem ejus , a quibus d●venit , deducemini , ad quorum cognitionem salutarem quocunque alio modo perveniri non potest : Sicut enim non cernitur Sol hujus mundi , nisi per Lumen quod ab ipso profluit ad nos ; ita nec Sol justitiae nisi per mensuram illam lucis ( quantumvis parvam ) quae ab eo fulget in corde . 20. Etiamsi enim Scriptura , quae de Luce loquitur , & ad Lucem dirigit , de Patre , ac de Filio verba facit , ita ut de his possitis legere , ac loqui quod ibi legitis , hoc tamen ipsa testatur Scriptura nemin●m pos●e cognoscere vel Patrem , vel Filium , nisi cui Pater & Filius seips●s invice●n revelabunt , quorum Revelatio etiam est introsum , (n) quod enim de Deo cognosci potest , sufficienter ad salutem , manifestatur in hominibus ( inquit Paulus ) (o) nam Deus in ipsis manifestum fecit , & praedicatum est Evange●ium in omni creatura , quae sub Caelo est , p●r Lucem Dei in conscientia , adeo ut inexcusabiles coram Deo relicti sunt ( qui aliter excusabiles essent , & inculpati ) siquidem cum Deum norint , non tamen ut Deum glorificant , nec visum est illis Deum in notitia retinere , sed Dei jure agnito , nempe eos , qui talia faciuut , qua●ia & ipsi , dignos esse morte , non solum ea faciunt , sed & facientibus ultro consentiunt . 21. Interea tamen non dicimus Christum ipsum esse in omnibus , qui in omnibus esse notus est qui non sunt Reprobi , ut Spes illa gloriae ; veruntamen omnes ( nam non est distinctio , nisi per varios gradus lucis , qui non variant Rei naturam ) mensuram lucis suae aliqualem , & unum saltem Talentum habent sibi commissum , ut negotiati sint cum eo ad utilitatem , quo bene utentes , & duplicantes ingressum habent in Gaudium Domini sui , quod vero occultantes , et non lucrantes cum eo detrusi sunt tandem a luce quam habuerunt , in tenebras illas exteriores , ubi est fletus , et stridor dentium : Aliqualiter itaque in omnibus ( etiam Ethnicis ) lux haec Lucet , licet non Aequaliter in omnibus . 22. Ad cu●us Christi Lucis mensuram , quae est in vobis est , benefacietis si attendatis , dum habeatis , velut ad lucernam splendentem in obscuro loco , ad dandum vobis cognitionem salutis vestrae , & ad dirigendum pedes vestros ad viam pacis , ut & animabus vestris oneratis , & fatigatis veram requiem inveniatis , ne vos tenebrae deprehendant , nam qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vadat , nec ad quod impingetur . 23. Haec Lux est Lex Dei ( nam lex est lux inquit sapiens (p) ) inscripta non atramento , sed Spiritu Dei Vivi , non in tabulis lapideis ( ut olim in figuram hujus per Dei digitum ) sed in carneis tabulis cordis ; in qua non solum legatur , & intelligatur , ut in Scriptura , & lege ad extra , de jure quid ageres , & quid esses , sed de facto etiam quid agis , & quid es : Nam Noscere Teipsum , quem si ignoraveris , Christum haudquaquam noveris , quem si nescis , nihil est si caetera noscis , hoc non aliunde venit , nisi per internum tui ipsius intuitum in intimiori hoc speculo , nempe Luce Christi , per quam splendet Deus in conscientia , quae lux ducit sequentes eam ad audiendum verbum illud verum , & vivum Dei , de qua Scriptura loquitur (q) quod est potens , & efficax , ac penetrantius quovis gladio aucipiti , pertingens usque ad divisionem animae simul ac spiritus , compagumque , & medullarum , dijudicans cogitationes , & conceptus cordis , cui omnia sunt manifesta , & nuda , quod ut ignis est , & malleus confringens rupes , & causans ut ad audiotionem ejus tremebunda redduntur omnia , quod in initio fuit priusquam Scriptura fuit , quae de eo testatur , de quo Scriptura tum vetus , tum nova veraciter testatur quod non procul , sed prope est in corde , & in ore ut faciatis , etiam hoc ipsum verbum fidei , quod Apostoli praedicabant . 24. Haec Lux est bona illa via , & Antiqua , Antiquior quam Antiquisima inter Sectas hujus seculi vel Jusdaeorum , vel Christianorum , qui ( omnibus interim , viz. tum Catholicis , tum Lutheranis , tum Calvinistis , tum Bapristis , se esse antiquissimos profitentibus ) in tot Ramos , Ramulos , & Ramusculos veteris Ecclesiae Romanae truncum diviserunt , ut totum corpus ejus ad mortem brevi aegrotabit , & quae tot tam diu fuerit filiorum Mater pene devorata jam est a filiis suis : Haec lux ( inquam ) est antiqua illa via , ad quam per Jeremiam revocavit Deus Israelitas in suas ipsorum traditiones a Deo degeneratos , dicens , sistire , & cernite , ac quaerite pro antiquis semitis , ubi est bona ilia via , & ambuletis in illa , & invenietis requiem animabus vestris , sed dixerunt non ambulabimus in illa , auscultate voci Tubae , sed dixerunt non auscultabimus . (r) 25. Haec Lux est Doctor , qui non potest decipere , nam est Testimonium Dei , quod Testimonio hominum majus est , nec potest adula●i , nam unumquemque redarguit juste , non justificans improbum , nec condemnans justum , sed unicuique verum dicens de seipso , prout res ipsa est , & non aliter accusans , aut defendens quam Deus ipse , a qu● est ; Si enim per hanc , quae est a Deo in te lucens , cor tuum te condemnat , non datur Deus ad extra te pro justo habens ; Vbi vero per hanc cor tuum te non condemnat , securitatem coram Deo habeas . (s) 26. Denique haec Lux est perfecta illa libertatis Lex , cujus qui est Auditor , & non Effector , is similis est viro consideranti faciem suam nativam in speculo , qui simulatque consideravit seipsum abit , & statim oblitus est qualis esset , in quam vero si quis introspexerit , & permanserit in illa , nec est Auditor obliviosus , nec otiosus , sed Actor operis , hic beatuserit in opere suo (t) 27. Dehinc itaque , quicunque teipsum nosceres , ne te quaesiveris extra , sed reipsum introrsum intuearis in luce illa interna , quae non modo mentem ac voluntatem Dei de te bonam , & perfectam , sed & tuam ipsius mentem , ac totaliter teipsum tibi discernendum intus tam perfecte exhibet , ut de hisce , aeque ac de omnibus ad animae falutem , ad Regnum Dei pertinentibus cum justitia ejus , & quale tibi jus est haereditarium in illo , quod prope est , quod intus est ( inquit Christus Pharisaeis , (v) qui tamen nunquam ingressi sunt in illud ) non opus est ut egrediavis foras in ordine ad ulteriorem evidentiam & intelligentiam ; imo-plus fatis jamjam intelligis , si de beneplacito Dei agnoveris plus quam agis : cedit enim tibi in condemnationem tantum , quodcunque bonum Agnitum est & non Actum : In aperto & facili , nec in Cognoscendo quid Agendum est , sed in Agendo quod Notum est salus filtorum hominum . 28. Quinimo quid impedit ( nisi in excacatione oculorum , obturatione aurium , & obduratione cordium suorum , & rejectione consilii Dei in perditionem suam delectentur ) quominus ad vitam Dei , a qua alieni sunt , perveniant improbi ? Via enim ad hanc quantumcunque angustior , & strictior est prae cruce Christi , quae indies tollenda est ab iis , qui eum sequuntur , quam lata & spatiosa illa , quae ducit in exitium , qua de re tam multi per hanc , tam pauci per illam introeunt , per Lucem tamen , una cum ea , quae ad mortem tendit , fit tam plane manifesta , us ( nisi sponte ignorantibus ) non potest facile occultari . 29. Fructus enim Spiritus , ceu o ▪ pera Lucis , qualia sunt justitia , charitas , bonitas , fides , lenitas , sobrietas ; temperantia , continentia , quos qui Deo profert cum Deo vivit , Deumque videt , cuiquam contra lumen in conscientia sua non conniventi sunt manifesta ; & opera Tenebrarum , ceu Carnis , cu●usmodi sunt adulterium , scortatio , impuritas , lascivia , Idololatria , veneficium , inimicitia , lites , a mulationes , excandescentia , rixae , dissidia , haereses , invidia , caedes , ebrietas , commessationes , & his similia , qualia quicunque agunt Regni Dei haeredes non erunt , manifesta sunt ( inquit Scriptura [w] ) idque non tam per Scripturam , quam per lucem cui testatur Scriptura , & per quam manifesta fuerint in conscientiis hominum antequam Scriptura fuit , & hodie manifesta fiunt ubi Scriptura non est , per quam etiam manifesta forent fi Scriptura nunquam fuisset . Omnia enim quae redarguantur ( inquit Spiritus in Scriptura ) [x] per lucem manifesta sunt , lux enim est illud , quod omnia manifesta facit . 30. Ad hanc itaque animos vestros adhibeatis omnes , ad hanc veniatis , in hac ambuletis , & perpetuo mane atis , etiam in Spiritu Dei , qui redarguit mundum , & consolatur sanctos ex mundo vocatos , redemptos , & electos : Hic horatim sistatis , ut & vosmet ipsos sciatis , & comprehendatis malos Spiritus , qui per lucem comprehenduntur , ac dijudicantur , licet hi nec eam , nec filios ejus comprehendunt ; ut & gratia , & miserecordia , & pax multiplicetur vobis a Deo Patre , & a Jesu Christo , cujus consilio in conscientia quicunque auscultaverit , habitaverit secure , & quietus erit etiam a metu mali : Hic enim est mutus Ahaenus homini interne . Nil conscire sibi , nulla pallesere culpata . 31. Qui vero a Luce deflexerit , relinquens semitas sinceritatis ambu lare in Tenebrarum viis , is ut suopic judicio fit introrsum condemnatus , ita hunc tum Error , tum Terror semper obviam habituri sunt , ita ut dum speciem risus , & laetitia praese ferat , saepe tamen valde torquetur , & in t us Pallet is infaelix , quod proxima nesciat uxor . 32. Haec omnia supradicta , quae primo privatim magis , in Amici singularis , & insignis cujusdam Germanici gratiam , & usum , Latine fuerunt conscripta , nunc , cum non ulteriori alteratione , quam hujusmodi rei ratio requirit , nec non Deo ipso ad opus hoc movente , publice magis , idque tam Anglice , quam Latine rescripta sunt , & exhibita in usum vestrum ( O Academici ) ac aliorum omnium , quibus petentibus a nobis parati sumus ( secundum Petri consilium , 1 Pet. 3.15 . ) ad reddendum rationem fidei , quae in nobis est , cum mansuetudine , & timore , conscientiam bonam habentes ; in hunc finem vero , ut tam Vos , qui aures a veritate avertentes ad fabulas divertitis , quam Vos , qui prurientes , & nulli alii rei vacantes , nisi ad dicendum , & audiendum aliquid novi , putatis nos peregrina , ac novella quaedam inferre auribus vestris , sciatis nos nequaquam Nova aliqua attulisse , sed , Antiqua omnia , etiam eadem ipsamet , quae per Dei Ministros ab initio fuerunt edita , quaeque scimus vel in Salvationem vestram , vel Damnationem graviorem , vos agnituros in eternum . 33. De quibus tamen non negligimus vos commonefacere , & per submonitionem expergefacere , siquidem nil dicere , quod non dictum prius , tiamsi nos haud piget , attamen tutum est vobis qui , prae nimia incogitatione , ac inanimadvertentia , vel id ipsum quod notitis ( vere dicam ) ignoratis . 34. Quae quidem si in eadem luce ac eod●m spiritu sinceritatis , quocum scripta fuerint , ab aliquibus pelegantur , vel me scripsisse , vel vos legisse nequaquam paenitebit . 35. Sin minus , ac si malignitatis & inimicitiae spiritum amicus hic Sermo salutis vestrae in vobis exstimularit , ita ut ignominiosam ( potius quam salutiferam auscultationem ) a vobis repulsam patietur , satis mihi placebit in hoc opere me Deo placuisse , ac purum esse sanguinis animarum vestrarum , ac vos tandem memineritis ( etiam si sera nimis , non absque poenitentia tamen . ) Vos fuisse a Deo monitos . Per Animarum vestrarum Amicum , Anglicanum , Sam. Fisher. Non amo ( Piscator ) nec possum dicere Quare ? Hoc tantum possum dicere non amo te . Si nescis cur non ? dicam tibi Quare ? ( Sacerdos ) In promptu causa e. t ; Et quia vere amo te . Exeo , cum multis aliis , ex . Orbe , ut in Orbe Piscator Ictus , Laesus , Amicusei , Piscilegens quoscunque bonos in vasa , at in ipsum Infernum abjiciens triste , malum que malos . Tupetis Exitium , Tibimet petis ipse Ruinam , Ventosus ventis verba , utivela , dedis : Interdico tibi , rapiens te exigne , ut Amicus , Sum tibi Veridicus , Tuque Inimicus eris . Piscator verus vere est nam Piscis Amator , Sed Piscatorem Piscis amare queat ? Per Samuelem Piscatorem , Per Pisc-amatorem Laesum . ( Fisher ) I love Thee not , yet know not Why ? Love Thee I can't , were I therefore to Dy : Know'st Thou not why ( O Priest ) Thou lov'st not Me ? The case is cleare , 't is because I love Thee : Out of the World into 't , with more , I 'm Sent , A Fisher ( wrong'd ) of men , to cry Repent ; Gath'ring in vessells all Good Fish , but Bad Casting forth into th' Pit , that Lake so Sad ; Thou seek'st thine own perdition puff't in Mind , Yield'st up thy whiffling words , like Sayl's to th' Wind , In love I seek to save Thee from that Fire , Tell Thee the Truth , for this Thou' rt fild with Ire ; Fishers that catch men Thus ( though Friends to th' Fish ) From them , they wish well , can't have one good Wish . SAM FISHER WELLWISHER to all men . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A39574-e860 * Magistracy we own , and , for Conscience sake , ●hereto are Subject , as an Ordinance of God , and for this cause have we at all times paid Tribute . Custom , Exc●se , and Assessements , and all o●her dues thereto belonging , that we may live a godly and quiet life under their Goverment , wheniever God calls thereto . For to peace are we called with all men , and that we seek , and can freely contribute to the Magistrates power , that bears the Sword for that end : But out of Warrs we are redeem'd , and may neither learn , nor teach warrs any more : So it is not for saving our many , nor in contempt of any Authority set over us , that we have hitherto refused to raise : Armes with , or against any Power , since we were a People ; for the mony we give to him wh●se Superscription it bears , but our Lives and Consciences we give up to God alone . And what ever we Suffer , a killing Instrument we may neither Form nor Bear against any of Gods Creation ; for he that is our Saviour from all our Enemies , Leads us to save mens Lives , and not to Destroy . * Which shewes , against that late Toy that John Tombs hath put forth in proof of some Swearing now ( which is scarely worth any further Answer , yet is Answered by Richard Hubberthorn ) that what Swearing was then allowed of ( as before a Ruler it then was , to end a Strife among men , who are yet in Strife ) is now unlawful among his Saints , who are Redeemed out of Strife , and the rest of those fleshly works , which it is one of , Gal. 5. Nor doth John Tombs's insisting on the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Thes. 5.27 . adde a jot to his proof ; for howbeit it is Ordinarily us'd to signifie to Adjure or bind one by Oath , yet ( being as some suppose , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to confine , or ( as some ) of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a bound or limit ) it Originally signifies to bind , limit , confine , oblige any way , by Word or Promise , as well as Oath : And J. T. confessing Pauls Charge in that place , and those , 1 Tim 6.13 . 2 Tim. 4.1 . to be alike , therein confuses himself however : For the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there used , are no more then to Engage before some Witness ( God or Man ) or solemnly to Command or Charge , and not to Swear one , and cannot be taken so strictly , as to Adjure , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be taken in the moderate sense , i.e. any way to oblige , as well as in that rigid way of Swearing . And as for his saying 〈◊〉 is a Particile of Swearing , I say it is not necessarily so , but oft of Affirming onely , as Quidem , Profecto , Truly , Verily , &c. And however , where Paul uses it , 1 Cor. 15.31 . he does not Swear , ( as J.T. divines he did ) for sith he , and all confesse none are to Swear by any but God alone ; Pauls swearing there ( had it been an Oath ) had been unlawfull , it being not by God , but by his , and the Corinthians rejoycing . * What Works , Wagings of War and Fallings out have formerly been between R. B. and J. T. may be seen no farther off then in that self same foresaid Book of R. B's . own putting forth ( to the slashing of his own Back soundly ( in that particular ) with that Rod of hi● own making ) wherein these Two Foes Fall into such Fraternall Fellowship , as to knit themselves into One Foe-ship against us , to the Contents of which Book ( after all those Denominations of Reverend Brother that passe between them in the Epistles of it ) is 〈◊〉 not only a Catalogue of J. T 's Books against that foresaid Tradition , which R. B. B●angles For , but among the rest , that of Felo de se , being J. T 's Collection of 20. Arguments Against Infant Baptism out of R. B's . own disputations For it . * Witnesse Blomes Book of Sundry Slanders and Calumnies against the Qua. ( Stoln out of T. D's . Story Books and some others ) Answered already by R. H. Dedicated by Blome to the King ; with as Strong Desires of our Suppression , as there are in it long False Tales of our Transgression . * Who is not Inferiour in Flouting as it , to that their Creature of the Clergyes Creating , into those Course Conceits , and Scur●ilous Scoffings at it , viz. Francis Duke , Master of that Ordinary or House , Ordinarily called Hell , Next to West-Minster Hall in the Pallace Yard , who in his very dately Extant Pl●ce of Prate against the Quakers , Stiles the Light within , An Antichrist in Villanies Surmounting All Antichrists , that have done Villanously , p. 40. A Lousie Christ , A Vermin Bread of an Addle Brain , p. 19. and the Quakers being Led by the Light into the Lords Rest , so as not so much as to think their own Thoughts , nor Speak their Own Words , A Stinking Idoll ( Forsooth ) p 62. and Store more of such Sordid Stuff , as Stinks among Sober Men , which I f●bear to Name , Geo. Whitehe●● having allready so Soberly Answered it . Notes for div A39574-e37270 * Fanatici sunt erroribus & stultitia hisce diebus notissimi , quos in primis hic aggredimur : J.O. ad lectorem . The Qua. are in th●se daies most notoriously known by their errours , and foolishness , whom we here ( that is in his Latine Labours ) do principa●ly encounter . * Non quaerit angulos , premi haud supprimi potest . * So thou stilest them thy self in this Epistle , and that as fitly as may be ; for howbeit thou barest as broad sails as thou couldst , yet thy Tackling was so lax and loosed , that thou couldst not well strengthen thy Mast , nor arrive at the Cape of thy vain hope , without shrewd shipwrack , as to that false Faith thou d●fendest , or else the Qua. would not have so encreas'd there ever since . * Witness one juncture , more notable then the rest , in the second daies work , wherein G.W. had the Serpents Head in such a string , as would have led him away captive , but that the whole Seed , and Generation of Vipers then present , with one joynt consent , would have violently broke up the Meeting , rather then G.W. should proceed to utter a word more , and so rescued T.D. at that time from his hands . * Which as brief as 't was , was t●o long by one loud lye that was told in it , viz. that I was engaged for by L.H. to be there , which was not so , for L.H. only did me word of it , and laid it before me , but laid nothing on me , so much as by way of desire of me to be there , nor did I ingage any way at all to him that I would . * The more 〈◊〉 for thee , that thou art no more ashamed at them , considering the whole score of dirty rank ones , ranked , and reckoned up , and laid at thy door , as Brats of thy own Patronizing , at the end of G.Ws. book . * Cum turpis & inhonesta sit hominum sententia dubiae ac incertae significationis vocibus ludere , strophis ac fucis imp●sturam facere , ipsam non palam verbis consutis , & consareloqui , eam mangonizare , ●●n●scicinatis silium sermonitus obtente connihil magis cavere , quamebrare , telligant , nec●intelligant ne inu● . * That God offers Salvation to those he intends it not . That David was not in a condemned but justified Esta●e when guilty of Adultery and Murder , &c. * Hear , hear , hear the Word of the Lord O ye mountains and inhabitants of the earth , The day , even the day of his Visitation is upon your heads , for ye have chosen the way which is not good ; Wherefore Assemble your selves together ( O ye strong Oakes ) that the Lord might pour upon your heads his indignation , for deceit and hypocrisie the Lords Soul abhors . As sure as the Lord overturned them that went before you , so sure will the Lord overturn you . * For de te fabu●a , thou art the said ( unkind ) Kinsman thou tel'st this Remarkable Tale on . Mr. Tho. Foxton Iurate , ● Tho. Barber , Cooper . Mr. Tho. Foxton , Iurate , Tho. Barber , Cooper . Iohn Boys Esq Mr. Ch. Nichols , Mr. Th. Foxton , &c. * Where also other Qu. have been in the service of Truth , as J. Lough who died in Prison there ; J. Parrot who is in Prison therestill ; and John Stubs with whom I went thither . * And so I said to T.F. and T.B. if any , who was writing by a Candle in the night , will needs have his Candle burning by him , when the Sun is risen on him , and write by that , though there were no need of it , I would not blow it out . * For thus T. D. argues of me , or else what makes this passage about Ordinances amongst and in the very midst of his Argument●tive matter , by which he would prove against me the charg of Popery ? * See Edward Burrowes Book . * Fanaticos non esse perfectos neque ad Christum in gloria adductos nobis Testimonio sunt illorum me●dacia , f●audes , selera , hypoctisis ; ijs vero qui immunes se●esse ab his omnibus alisque peccaris , vel levissunis , impudenter glorian●ur , punitiones et incarcerationes , quas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sua sibi ultro accersunt , de quibus muli britur quiritantux , esse debeant . I. O. Exer. 3. Sect. 29. * Which I have written more largely of some years since in the last part of my , book of Baby-Baptisme stild An i-Sacerdotisme . * Hen. Oxenden I. B●ys * Na●h . Barry . Tho. Seyliard . Charles Nicols * Contraria Ratio , thou shouldst have said , for par Ratio is not affirmed by me for the merit of true good and real evil . * See 1 Cor. 15.10 . I laboured more abundantly then they all , yet not I , but the Grace of Christ in me . So Gal. 2.19 , 20. I live unto God , I am dead to the Law , crucified with Christ , yet I live , yet not I , but Christ in me , and the life I now live is by Faith , &c. So 2 Cor. 13.3 . Christ speaking in me , is not weak , but mighty . * Or m●n of the earth ( f●r so Edom signifies of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) * I deny not that . [a] which I had not . [b] which is true . [c] which I never said [d] which was not so , but in some doctrines , then some Ministers of the ( so cal'd ) reformed Churches . [e] as wel I might , sith I knew it was false . [f] which is false if by ours thou mean ●●at men work out of Christ , but too true for T.D. to disprove , if by Our works he means , as he does , such as Christ works in men . [g] alias famish the Popes Bag and expell his Baggage . * Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt . Notes for div A39574-e153400 * For our Disputation is of things that are ( formaliter ) what they are , and are said to be , of what is really and truly what it s call'd , De Scripturae nomine proprio , Ex. 1. S. 1 , 2. Non fictitio & imaginario , nec figurativo ; Of the proper Name of the Scripture , formally so taken , and not of feigned , falsly imagined , and meer Metaphorical Denominations . † 2 Chro. 21.12 . Dan. 10.21 . Luke 1.1 . Rom. 7.6 . 2 Cor. 3.6 . † Fanatici sunt erroribus & stultitia hisce diebus notissimi , quos imprimis hic agg edinur . N●mo autem post homine natos , aeque ac ego desirasse censendus esset , si ipsos scriptis hisce redargucre statuerim , cum nibilo plus sermonem illum quo hic utimur intelligant , quám nos aliquories inconditum illum verborum sonum omni sano sensu vacuum , quo ipsi non tantum umnibus altis , sed & ipsi sibi in dicendo obitrepese videntur , mente pe●cipere possiinus . Sintsene omnes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , neque ultra linguam vernaculam lapiant . * Ex. 11 Sect. 1. Fanaticos nostrates qui à tremore quo se in sacris agitari ipsi fibi fingunt , aut reapse vi mali spiritûs agitantur , vulgò trepidantes seu Quakers vocantur , respicit Quaestionis pars posterior , quae est de Scripturae nomine proprio . * Condemnatur horrida illa vociferatio qua per vicos urbis , agros arque Templa quae vocant illum cognoscite Dominum Rob●ant Fanatici . I. O. Ex. 3. S. 42. That horrid tone wherein the Fanaticks sound it out throw the City Suburbs , Fields , and Temples , as they call them , that , know the Lord. * Epist. Ded. pag. 13. 28. 30. pag. 147. Second Title Page , Ad Lectorem , Ex. 2. S. 2. S. 16. S. 21. S 22. S. 25. S. 32. S. 39. Ex. 4. S. 21. S. 23. S ult Fanatici nostrates , Fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hisce Fanaticis , insano cujusvis Fanatici Nebulonis strepitu . * Iuniorum instructioni quibus in sacrarum literarum studium ingenii a cumen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intendentibus passim hosce corvos sequi , Testaque lutoque , nee animus ost , nec otium specimen hoc novi Fanaticismi refutati , qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comitatus nullubi non grassatur , dicatum est . Ad Lectorem . * Qui cotis usurpat Officium reddit saltem alios acutos , ipse licet interim planè Hebes est & obtusus . † Quis expedivit psittaco suum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? Picasque docuit verba nostra Conari ? Magister Artis ingeniique largitor Venter , docuit negatas Artifex sequi voces . Per. * Viz. Neque sane usque adeo obrutuit humanum genus , ut semper praestigiatores istos spirituales , qui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contra manifesta Christi Praecepta , Sanctorum omnium exempla communia rationis istius quâ homines sumus principia & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , posthabitâ aeternae salutis curâ in caecitate & ignorantia voluntatis divinae propriique officii , negligentiâ supiná mortalium ullos Idololatriae illecebi is illaqueatos detinere conantur ferre velit . † De Scripturae nomi●e proprie contra Fanaticos nostrates , &c. huic hominum generi non satis e●set iiscum congredi & sociari , qui praeteritis seculis convitia sacris Scripturis intentàrunt , atque omnia in illas injecta opprobria suo calculo approbare , &c. Ex. 1. S. 2 , 3. Praemium strenuae contra Scripturarum Perfectionem oppositioni Debitum nemini mortalium sibi praereptum vellent , &c. Quod Deus placuerit provinciam hanc adversus verbi sui hostes demicandi nobis indignis delegare , Ex. 3. S. 16. * Quicquid Judaei , quicquid Ponteficii in opprobrium Scripturarum dicere unquam sustinuerunt , id omne horrendo percussi scotomate & dicunt & asseverant impuri homunciones , Librorum Titulos horrendos pudet referre , Ex. 3. S. 12. Gregis hujus precipui Errones & Corryphaei hic , illic impie & blasphemé in sacras Scripturas provocati dixerunts Quae sit communis eorum Sententia ex libris ab ipsis editis , &c. S. 17. * Declarationem hanc voluntatis Divinae à Spiritu Christi , qui Scriptoribus ejus adfuit , proces●isse proftientur , &c. Pro verâ & indubitatâ mentis Divinae Declaratione agnoscant bactenus rectè Quidem , &c. Ex. 3. Sect. 18. Si Res eorum secundum vota successissent , eas ( Scripturas ) dudum penitus rejecissent , &c. S. 19. Negant ( Scripturas ) immotam , perfectam , stabilem cultus divini — Regulam esse , &c. Sect. 20. Abs eo Spiritu ( Christi ) ducti — opus non habent Authoritate Scripturarum , &c. Sect. 21. Haec summa horum hominum sententia , Sect. 22. * Inter se distant , Judaei , Pontifices & Fanatici , Ex. 3. S. 2. Qui in rebus aliis omnibus diversissimè sentiant in hanc blasphemiam conspirent omnes , S. 14. Perpetuo invicem digladiantur Pontificii atque Fanatici 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ex. 3. S. 2. Internecioni se mutuo devovent , S. 3. Caeterum non iisdem rationibus ducti , sed illi pro traditionibus , bi pro Enthusiasmis atque Revelationibus suis , tanquam pro aris & focis contendentes , atque ita non secus ac Sampsonis vulpeculae obversis Caudis ignitas faces in segetes Ecclesiae ferentes , cuncti amicissimè è loco suo sacram Scripturam deturbate aggrediuntur , S. 4. Eam a loco suo in Ecclesia depellere satagunt , iisdem vestigiis insistunt Panatici nostrates , quibus ad nequitiam hanc viam patefecerunt qui inter Pontificios spirituales dicuntur , Ex. 3. S. 10 , 11. Adversus verbi sui hostes , Ex. 3. S. 16. Contra quosvis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , S. 26. * As J.O. does in his late shuttling sheet of Answers to some Queries about Tythes . * Ex. 1. S. 4. Non tantum Scripturas omni suâ Authoritate spoliare easque è loco suo mouere , sed & ipsum Christum Personalitate suâ atque divinâ existentiâ exuere hoc unico stratagemate intendunt & conantur . * De nomine Scripturae proprio contra Fanaticos nostrates , &c. I am to encounter our Fanaticks at present about the proper Name of the Scripture ; the part of the Question which is about the proper Name of the Scripture respects the Quakers , Ex. 1. S. 12. * Ipsum Verbum Dei omnem ejus usum quod attinet , penitus respuere , &c. Ex. 2. S. 27. * Apparet eos omni usu , authoritate ac perfectione sacras Scripturas spoliare , Ex. 3. S. 22. Nullt dubium esse possit quin si res eorum secundum vota successissent , eas dudum penitùs rejectssent , Ex. 3 S. 19. Utinam deleantur inquiunt Fanaticorum nonnulli , ut omnes ad lumen illud quod in iis est attenderent magis , Ex. 3 S. 13. * Ex. 2. S. 28. Enimvero si omnium seculorum , omnium qui unquam extiterunt Christianorum experientia , si ea quae ipsi vident , spectant , audiunt quotidie , ullius apud eos ponderis essent aut momenti , usum , necessitatem , fructum interpretationis Scripturarum per solennem verbi praedicationem , expositionem viva voce , aut scriptis factam , negare verecundarentur : spectemus utique utrumque gregem , cùm illum qui verbo licet fruantur , interpretatione ejus destitutus est , tum illum qui una cum verbo Dei , aliis etiam mediis cultus divini , quae in verbi interpretatione plurimum consistant fruitur , si modo ex fructibus arbor dignoscenda fit , bona apparebit illa , quae istiusinodi fructus cientiae Dei tulit , quibus ubique progerminavit legitima Scripturae interpretatio . * For every Prophet did not write down either all he said in his dayes , nor all that which in writing is set down of his seeings , and sayings , doings & sufferings with his own hands ; witnesse Jeremiah for whom Baruch wrote : and who wrote the latter end of the 5 Books of Moses , which ye dream he wrote every little and Iota of himself , Deut. 34.5 to the end ? Did he write of his own Death and Burial , and of Israels Mourning for him , after he was dead ? * Pag. 3. So Ex. 3. S. 27. Post completum quem vacant ejus canonem nullae novae revelationes circa fidem cōmunem Sanctorum aut Dei cultum aut expectandae sint aut admittendae credimus & prositemur . * It seems then thy Word of God ( so called ) may be , and was corrupted ( i.e. ) the Scripture , secundum te , who sometimes sayest it can't be corrupted in its Original Text , and is not to this day : But were it the Word of God indeed , as that is , it speaks of , and as thou sayest it self is , it were incorruptible indeed . * Mark , The Salvation of God was Common to all men then , however it s now Impropriated by the Personal Electionists unto themselves . * See I. O's . words , pag. 13. Hebraea Volumina nec in Vnica dictione corrupta invenies ; Citing Pagn . and Matth. 5.18 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And Pag. 316. 317. Speaking of the bare Copies of the Scripture , Doth not our Saviour himself affirm ( quoth he ) of the Word that then was among the Jewes , that not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sof it should passe away or perish ? Where let not the Points but the Consonants themselves and their Apices be intended or alluded to in that Expression , yet of that Word , which was Translated by the 70. according to this Hypothesis , not only Letters and Tittles , but Words , and that many are concluded to be lost ; And say I , Speaking not of Translations ( all of which I.O. seeks to prove deficient , from Pag. 320. to Pag. 344. See it at large in above 24 Pages together ) but of the Original Text it self , which he Pleads the Entirenesse and Integrity of , without loss to a Tittle , that upon this Hypothesis , that all the fore-mentioned Books are lost , not only Points and Consonants , and Apices and Letters , and Tittles and Iotaes , but Words , & that many , yea Books , and that many , are contrary to his Arch-Assertion , concluded to be utterly lost . * Though this I consesse , which makes little for J.O. but much against him , where he talks , as one that meddles with what 's out of his reach , of Gods putting every word so into their mouths , and speaking by them in every Tittle they wrote , that somethings in Pauls Writings he ( as himself sayes ) spake ; and not the Lord , 1 Cor. 7.12 . * Though I affirm it is not from Laodicea , were it truly rendered , being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Col. 4.16 . which Arias Montanus renders more rightly , Quae est Laodicensium , or Quae est Laodiceae , the Epistle which belongs to the Laodiceans , or is of , or to Laodicea . * Quid vero cum iis agamus , qui adeo infeliciter stupidi sunt ut nulla ratione nec experientia , &c. Dicat quod quisque volet ex hâc Opinione non dimovebimur . Ex. 2. S. 28. * Hoc N●men ( viz. ) Verbum Dei Proprium ) sibi Vendi●at Scriptura ; I. O. Ex. ● . S. 1 , 2 , 3 , 26 , 27. * For shall we Think ( quoth he ) Pag. 168. and so on many pages , &c. * Pag. 240. Whilst they keep the Scripture , we shall never want Weapons out of their own Armory for their Destruction ; Like the Philistims , they carry the Weapon that will serve to cut off their own heads , quoth I O. of the Iewes , and I of himself , and his fellow Students . * Quamvis enim ex justo Dei Iudicio sermo eis non est unicus , imo ita sunt inter se confusi ut vix intelligant alter sermonem alterius , tamen aedificandae turri é cujus fastigio , fastu quodam Giǵanteo , signa inferant adversa lucis Perfectioni solio illi Dei ( literae scilicet ) in terris suis , summâ consentione unâ omnes incumbant ; See I.O. Ex. 3. S. 2. * See Pag. 314. The Distemper pretended that there are corruptions he allen the Text by varieties from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is dreadful , and such as it may well prove mortal to the sacred Truth of Scripture . * How contrary is this to J O. pa. 294. who saith , Nor let men please themselves with the pretended facility of Learning the Hebrew Language without Points and Accents , and not the Language only , but the true and proper Reading the distinction of it in the Bible . * Ex. 3. S. 24. Discipline cujusuis Perfectio consistit in relatione ad finem , eaque perfecta habenda sit quae sufficiens est respecta sinis sui proximi , ea vero imperfecta quae finem Propositum assequi potis non est . † Let T.D. consider this quotation of two Ca●dinals by I. O. who would argue me to be a Papist for saying a Truth which he said Bellarmine wrote , whom I never cited at all ; which T.D. will hardly conclude I. O. to be a Papist , though he quote two Popish Authors , whereof Bellarmine himsel● is one , and makes use of their Testimony against his fellow Protestants , whom he fights against : but me mutire ●efas , and if I mention but any truth that any Papists hold though I , cite them not , yet it s enough to subject me to suspicion of Popery , among our senselesse suspecters . truthl . fle thinkers , and groundlesly confident conjecturers ; but no marvail , fi●h ( as the Proverb is ) among such evil surmisers , Some men , whose Brothers will never say they are theeves . may more securely steal a ●orse , then some true men peep o're the hedge . † Tr. 1. chap. 1. S. 22. † Ex. 1. S. 3● † Tr. ● . ch.2 . S 1 † If Transcribers might go of 2000. times from the Original , in Transeribing a Translation , why not once or twice so as to corrupt it in more then Tittles in transcriptions ? No quoth I. O , credat Apella . Notes for div A39574-e290630 * Quae nam sit tua ipsius sententia de ha●Questione , an Scriptura 〈◊〉 verbum Dei ? Hand facile quis declarabit ; preterquam enim quod tocum non convenias , ita inepic ●rque odiose in explicandis animi , misensibus garris , dubiae & incertae significati●nis vocibus ludis , peregrinis quibu●dam phrasibus , quae imperitos homines , aut re●eant , aut illi●ia● , nihil sani sensus , aut quod ab ullis sa●e 〈◊〉 intelligi possit , continentibus , uteris , ui multo facili●o●r sit Argumenta ●ua pristigare quammente● percipere . Imo cum ●●pis , & inh●nesta sit tua sen●entia , quae emuleatè exposita remo●i● strophis atque sucis , ipsae sibi apud prebos omnes , etiam non palam improbos satis esset ad exiti●m datâ operâ qu● imposturam facia● vel ipsam non palam Eloqueris vel verbi : i. á consutis & consa●cinatis , ut nihil pene omnino significent , eam mangonizas atque ita consilium sermonibus obtenebrans nihil mâgis cavere videris , quam ne intelligaris . * T. 1. C. 4. S. 7. † T. 1. C. 4. S. 1. * T. 1. C. 4. S. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. † Which witness of God the Word is , ●● confess , & thou needst not prove it : But that word is not the Scripture , but that the Scripture writes of . * VVhich witness of men for God as mov'd , the Scripture i● , and no more , as will be seen an●n . * Mark how he intermingles these two terms in his discourses T. 1. c. 2. s. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. * Mark what J. O. here ascribes to the Light in the Conscience , the Law in the heart , concerning which he makes so strange sometimes , that he will not believe there 's any such thing at all : Nescio quod Lumen , &c. † Which Word , that God magnifies over all his Name , is Christ Jesus , whom God hath highly exalted , and given him a Name above every Name that is named , of things in Heaven , Earth , and under the Earth , that at his Name every knee should bow , Phil. 2. And not the Scriptures , unless J.O. will say the Scriptures are exalted above Christ , and so make God a lyar . † And that was by the Truths Opponents , at the Disputation at Ashford for Infants Baptism , on the 27. of the 5. Month , by the Heathen called July , 1649. who in the Preface to their own falsly called True Account thereof extant , with my Answer to it , confessing not onely their own defects , and their zeal of Infant-Baptism to be more then their abilities to maintain it ; but also the weakness of their Arguments on its behalf , fall a beseeching people in their charity to cover the weakness of them . * Whereupon some Prophesies were stil'd , The Burden of the Word of the Lord. * In Linguisistis quibus Scripta est , verba disposita sunt per Spiritum sanctum neque arbitrio Scriptorum relicta . * Ex. 2. S. 14. Inter media quibus ad sui cognitionem revelandam Deus utitur sacra Scriptura non tantum longissime omnibus aliis antecellit sed fines salutares quod attinet unicum est seu singulare . * Pag. 330. But we are in a way and business wherein all things are carried to and fro by conjectures , and p. 180. All things here are uncertain , uncertain whether any such things were done , uncertain who are intended by the Sopherim , Ezra , and his companions most probably . All that I know of the various Readings of the Oriental or Babylonian , Occidental & Palestine Jews is that they first appeared in Bombergius his Bible under the care of F. Pratensis . I wish those that know more would inform me better ; to professe my ignorance , I know no ne that do give account of their original , in my present haste , I cannot enquire after them , and such ike stuff , so canis festinans caecos parit catulos . * Here 's a deal of Divinity as deep as the dung-hill it self , where it s more fit to stand then in divine Labors of Drs. in Divini●y , that pretend to be the chiefe Labourers in the plain honest Gospel , and servants to that simplicity that is in Jesus , † As the feel thinketh , so the Clock clinketh . * For so saith I.O. Etenim si in sentent● am hanc , cujus patrocinium proviribus suscip● mus , de plenitudine Scripturarum lubenter dis● cederent , utque omnis cujuseunque tandem gener● in Religione Controversia verbo Dei ( i.e. Scriptura secundum te ) sistatur consentirent , erro● res isti Te●errimi , quorum causa lucem Scripturae fugientes , Andabatarum more in tenebri● demicant , atque uti olim Ammonitae , Moabitae , & habitatores Montis Seiris , Bellum adversus populum Dei suscipientes internecioni semutuo devovent , ad Lumen Solis hujus manifestim ovane scerent . Ex. 3. S. 3.4 . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Per spiritum aut lumen internum enthusiasmum afflatum caelastem , colloquia Angelica ficta vel facta , &c. Ex. 3. s. 20 , 21. 25 , 28 , 29. * Heb. 5.12 . with Heb. 6.1 . where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are in effect same . o Si oujusque lumen privatum sit Regula Deo obedientiam prae standi tum tot Regulas habe●nus , quot homines ut unicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divinus , Gal. 6.16 . Eph. 3.16 . Isa. 8.20 . Sacram Scripturam hanc Regulam esse abundèantea demonstratum est . Ex. 4. S. 22. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Non tantum ingeneratio fidei sed , et in eâ dum spiritum hunc ducimus aedifitio finis est Scripturae . * Vbi verbum Dei locis paene innumeris praedicari promulgari , multiplicari , recipi enarratur sanctissima ista veritas , seu materia scrip● : rarum , non scriptura forma●iter considirata tenditur Ex. 1. s. 28. In corde nostro est scriptura non formaliter quatenus scripta sed quatenus divinam veritatemcontinet atque exhibet non respectu literae scriptae sed veritatis divinae in eâ contentae . * Si cujusque lumen privatum sit regulatum tot Regulas habemus qust homines , at unicus est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinis . * Intermediae quibus ad sui cognitionem Revelandam Deus utitur sacra Scriptura non tantum longissime omnibus aliis antecellit sed fines salutares quod attinet unicum est & singulare . Ex. 2. s. 14. * Christ , the Light , and his Spirit . * Colloquia Angelica ficta vel facta . * So that it s but just and meet to re●or : thy own Tauntings of the Qu. Ex. 3. s. 17. upon thy self , lia inepic atque ediose in explicando animi u●i sensis garris dubie & incertae significationis vocibits indis , ut quaenum sit ●eusis atque perfectione Scriptururum sine uliâ Revelatione p●r Spiritum & lumen internum non facile quis declarabit , ut multo sacilius sit Argumentum tuum profligare quem monrem percipere &c. * See J.O. p. 42 , 43 , 45 , 46. T. D p. 1 of his 1. Pamph. * See J.O. p. 46. Ex. 4. s. 21. T.D. p. 1 , 2.3 , 4 , & 30. of his 1. Pamp. * Nullius luminis interni ●juscunque tandem quam vis fit salutare , is usus aut finis est , ut ei tanquam duci viae nostrae & Regulae attendere debeamus , fed , &c * See how J. O. even teaches men so ill minded to criticize on the Scriptures , and turn them easily as a nose of wax which way soever they are minded to make them stand in his Epistle Dedicatory p. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. It is , quoth he , if a man have a minde to criticize , and mend the Bible , but trying what the Word or Words he fixes on will make by the commutation of Letters , &c. it is but saying the Scribe was mistaken in the likeness of letters , or affinity of ●ound , &c. and then it s done , and various lections arise , and corruptions come into his originals in more then Tittles and Iota's , one Iota or Tittle , of which yet [ quoth he blindly , speaking of the bare bones of the Letter , T. 1. c. 1. s. 13. as written ] shall never change or pass away . * Remember this yemy two Antagonists , J.O. who sayst , Christus sub nulla consideratione lumen salutare omnibus & singulis indulsit , Christ under no consideration hath vouch safed saving light to all and every man , Ex. 4.5.17 . how ye limit God in his goodness and grace ; and T.D. who , p 4. of thy first Pamph. sayest , Salvation is by God offered to more then to whom t is intended . And J.O. Ex. 4. s. 20. The light is sufficient to leave excuseless not to save . * See the Book of Ordination of Priests and Deacons . * Though T.D. told A. P. before many people at Sandwich , that 't is corrupt nature by which the Heathen do the things contained in the Law at A.P. informed me . * Ex. 3. s. 24. Deus sacrae Scriptur Author , &c. Perfe●ti● Scrip●●r aruminn●lla aliâ re consi●●eré potest quam insufficientiâ suâ respectu finis , &c. * Fa●si●imum est S●ripturam ●um in hoc mundo haeremus respectis nostri ●ecum suum sinem obtinereaut obtinere posse ●on enim tantū ingeneratio sidei sed & in eâ dis-●spiritum hunc ducimus aedificatio , s●ni●est Scripturae , quando adducimur ad Christum in gloria cessabit Scripturaeusus praesentistatui accommodat us , quin●tiam ipsa fides quatenùss in verbo Dei 〈◊〉 to ni●ebatur , abulibitur . * For the Letter still is to send from it self to the Light , so was Moses Letter a School-master to direct to another for the life , Moses sent his Disciples to Christ , saying , A Prophet shall the Lord raise to you like to me , of whom I am but a shadow , who writes the Law of God in the fleshly tables of the heart , as ye have it handed , ministred to you from me in outward gravings in Tables of stone , and writings with pen and inke , &c. him shall you hear in all things whatever he sayes , whoever hear● not him , though he seem to hear me , and to be zealous of my outward Writings , must be cut off from among his people ; and he that truly hears me , will go to him , for I write of him , Iohn 5. John Baptist sent from himself to Christ the Lamb of God for the taking away the sin , and to the true light he bare witness of , that enlightneth every man that comes into the world , confessing himself , and his Ministry must decrease before the increasings of the other . So the Apostles Writings and Letters were not to state them as the Standard , to call men thereto as the only Canon , but to keep men a ! way looking to the Lord the Light it self , of which use our Ministry and Writings now are , that by the Light they may come to life , and not go from Christ the Light , whose words are Spirit and life , who hath the word of eternal life , to either letter or any thing else , to keep them to the hearing of his own voice , as his sheep do , to take heed to his word of Prophesie , which is the Testimony of Jesus in the heart as to a light shining in the dark place of the heart till the day dawn & day-star arise in the heart , to which purpose was the Letter written ; and that excellent voice sent , which said to them of the beloved Son hear him ; and all the Apostles drift was to drive the Jews from Moses ; Thou teachest all every where to forsake Moses saying , They must not circumcise children , nor walk after those customes , the letter required as a shadow for a time : And indeed their Epistles point all at that one Faith , Truth , Way , Life , Passover , Baptism , Circumcision , Supper , Body , Lord , Spirit , Rule , whereas if ●e steer as by the Foundation , Rule , Standard , &c ● by their Letter , which they never intended to sta●● ( as the Foundation , then there must be more R●les , Faiths , Forms , Baptisms , Suppers , viz. the outward Letter and literal observations , which mere once used and ordained as Types for a time , and the spiritual substantial ones , to which , sending us from the wri●ings of the carnal Ordinances they speak of , they advise and call to . * So they call themselves at this day thorow England , Scotland and Ireland , witness Hard●ess Wallers Proclamation , & Gener. Monks & John Lawsons , & t●e Cities late congratulations together about the mercy of God toward this their Israel in recalling the Parliment , called the Rump , which if they do right , may prosper , but if they persist yet in their professed Resolution to stablish the Popes pay on their Preachers , contrary to their Oaths to extirpate Popery Root and branch , which they have sworn the Nation to endeavour also the ex●irpation of , and to persecute such as cannot be perjured together with them , they have not long yet to subsist without a Whirlewind from the Lord ( as fast and safe as they seem to sit ) falling with pain upon their heads , for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it . * No more is is yours . * And we the same in the instance of your selves . * There we leave you , for we own Gods word to all , and alwayes living , but the Letter never was living , but alwayes a dead letter , though killing , but the Spirit only living and giving life . * And as ye have the Letter which is but as the Ark that keeps the Testament , but not it , to your further ruine . * Mark how I.O. crowds , as oft he doth elsewhere , these two terms together in one ●lause , viz. The Scripture the Word of God , as it were by App●si●ion , as if it were given him for granted that the Scripture , and the Word of God , were as to name and thing one and the same , while ●is the very Question denied by us , and to bee proved by him that the Scripture is the Word of God , and so here is a peece of petitio principii in it , or begging of the Question ; and were it an Interrogation , as t is a Position , and asks , Is not the Scripture , the Word of God Light ●it were fallacia plurium interrogationum , whereby the Sophister asks one question of two thing● at once , which is true of one , false if affirm●d of the other , for we deny not the Word of God to be the Word of God , nor the Word of God to be the light , but we deny the Scripture or letter ●o be either the Word of God , or the light . * Where take notice of at least Iotaes and Tittles to be altered in your perfect Copies from which , sayest thou , not one Apex nor Iota can fail . Verbum illud quod in nobis est est v●rbum fidei quod Apostoli praedicarunt , Rom 10.8 . Nihil autem praedicabant quod non scriptum suit per Mosen & Prophetas , imo verbum illudscriptum esse eo loci , v 10. asserit Apostolus . 2. Scripture est prope nos in ●re & corde nostro , no● respectu literae scriptae , non formaliter quatenus scripta , sed veritatis divinae s●● quatenus continet atque exhibet divinam veritatem . * Note how I.O. all along makes the Scripture and the Word of God so synomous , that from the participation of the same nature and properties he judges them to be all one , and that the names of the one , viz. the W●rld of God , & the Light , are the very proper names of the other , i.e. of the Letter , and where he expresses himself by these Termes the Word of God , the Light , the Power of God in his Treatises and Theses ( except in the place where he speaks of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) it must still bee understood of the Scripture . * For novum Testamentum , i e. Christi lux , spiritus , verbum fidei , est in ●etere velatum vetus i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , litera scripta , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Scriptura ad extra , vel Dei ipsius digito scripta in tabulis externis lapideis , quae fuit mera , licet vera figura , umbra , imago Scripturae ad intra , per Dei Spiritum in internis tabulis cordis carneis , est in novo Re● latum , 2 Cor. 3. * Which quatenur containing the Divine Truth is the utmost that I.O. is capable to say for the Scriptures being called by that name of the Word of God , as that nomen proprium , that proper name , he disputes for on its behalf , and for its being within in the heart , Ex. 1. s. 1 , 2 , 3 & s 28.40 . which is to say just nothing to his proper purpose , and indeed to unsay all that ever he sayes both before and after , in his proofs of the Word of God to be the proper name of the Scriptures ; for if it be not , nor is to be called the VVord of God formally considered , as a VVriting , but only as contaning , and declaring of the Truth , Lights and VVord , then it is not properly , nor is to be called the VVord of God properly at all . * Spiritus Dei gravissime damnat & rejicit omnia additamenta ad verbum Scripturarum , cujuscunque tandem generis sunt , ac speciatim omnes istas vias & modos cognitionis Dei , accum eo communionis , quos ja●titant Fanatici , &c. * Locust as hasce cum primum ex fumo put●iprodierunt &c. speaking of the Qua. saith I.O. Ex. 3. s. 32. Illud ad quod nunquam , nusqnam à De● mitti●ur , ut inde , seu ex ●o discamus sui cognitionem & voluntatis suae , vel ut inde directionem in officio nostro sumamus , illud non porest essefit●ei cognisionir , doctrinae aus obedientiae nostra Regula , Canon , Princip●●m , 〈◊〉 ; s●ita ●●qui 〈◊〉 , Directorium . At ver● ad lumen internum seu spiritum internum privatum , &c. nunquam , nu●quam à D●● ablegamur , ergo , &c. Proferant Fanatici velunum sacrae Scripturae locum , &c. Si antem de su● santum loquantur mendaces sunt , &c. * Joh. 1.5 , 8 , 9 3.12.9.3.12 . 35 , 36 46. Act. 13.47 , 26.18 . Isa. 42.6.49.6 1 Joh. 1. ● , 6 , ● 2 Cor. 4.6 . 2 Pet. 1.19 . Rom. 1.19 . * Ex. 3. s. 34. Enthusiasmorum omne genus incertitudo , &c. Quod om●i modo atque respectu est incertum imo incertissimum , Fallax five , &c. * Ex 1. s. 31. Sacram Scripturam saepius ●o nomine à sancto Spiritu indigitaricuivi●eam vel leviter inspicienti facile apparebit . * Ex. 1. s. 28. Locis paenè innumeris , &c. ubiverbum Dei praedicari promulgari recipienarratur non Scriptura formaliter considerata intenditur . Miilles ferè mentio fa●●● ve●●i D●i●●que prae●●●ationis , promulgationis , ac receptionis ejusdem , neque iism hocis Scriptura●● intendi●agnoscere 〈◊〉 . * Aiunt lumen hoc esse eejusdem Authoritatis cum Verbo Dei scripto , i.e. ( secundum te ) cum scriptura I.O. Ex. 4.15 . Notes for div A39574-e416450 * Ioel 2.28 , 29. Act. 2.17 , 18. Luke 24.49 . Act. 1.4 . Gal. 3.14 . * The Grand Senior , & Oldest Master of Arts in most Universities & Countries . * Isa. 29.4 , 43 , 4 , 8. 54 , 7 , 8. Isa. 8.17 . 66. 5. Hos. 5.15 , 16. Hos. 6.1 , 2 , 3. Zach. 8.2 , 3 , 6 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Rev. 11.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. &c. Isa. 44.3.35.7 . Ioh. 7.38 . Ioh. 4.14 . * T.I.C. 5. S. 12 , 13. For speaking there of the Testimony that the Spirit beares in the Scripture , of the Scripture , that it is the Word of God , which in all the Scripture is not to be found , for neither the spirit in the Scripture , nor out of it neither , or in the hearts of any , doth testifie that false thing , that the bare letter or Scripture is Gods Word , nor doth the Scripture say any such thing of its single self , but whatever spirit saith the Letter is the Word of God in any heart , is the lying spirit and not the spirit of God. * Col. 1.23 . Acts 3 32 , 33. * Why dost thou not write it Holy Sprit ? but then perhaps it would not sound so well to thy turn , for many Idiotish people are ready to think , as if the Holy Ghost were some more extraordinary matter , than the Spirit ( if thou dost not thy self , whereupon perhaps thou so often writest in this phrase the Holy Ghost ) Ghost is that terrible word which the Ghostly Fathers have used to fright poor simple people with in their Liturgies , Talkings , Treatises and Translations , it sounding somewhat more hideously then the word Spirit , or else I know no reason why they render not the Greek word by that English word Spirit in one place as well as another , for its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all along in your Originall Copies , as well where they did translate it Ghost and wind , as they do in one place , John 3.8 . as well as where they translate it Spirit ; but though it were an uncouth sound to say Ghost in most places where the word Spirit stands ; as it were strange to say , The Ghost of God witnesseth to our Ghosts , &c. the Ghost lusteth against the Flesh , and the Flesh against the Ghost , &c. Such as are led of the Ghost of God , are his Sons , &c. The Ghost helpeth our infirmities , &c Et sic de caeteris ) yet where the Epethite Holy is joyned to it , it is more dreadfull , and enought to frighten Priest-befool'dpeople , and some of our Ghostly men too , to say Holy Ghost and so mostly where Holy is with it , it so stands in your Translations . * The selfe same that in the flesh was an Advocate or Intercessour to God for his people in the Spirit , is their Advocate or Intercessour to Godward in them : Compare John 16. with 1 John 2.1 . where , though translated Comforter in one place , and Advocate in another , yet the Greek word is the same ( i.e. ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in both . So Rom. 8. The Spirit helps our infirmities , and prayeth for us , and maketh intercession . * Neque uspiam litera esse mortua dicitur ; occidit quidem , sed ideo viva est . Compare the Scriptures where all these are used promiscuously , as one in the Originals , and in the Translations also . Ex. 3. S. 39. Nobis Testimonio sunt illorum mendacia , fraudes scelera , hypocrisis Fanaticos non esse perfectos ; iis vero — punitiones & incarcerationes , quas akatastasia sua sibi ultro accersunt , de quibus muliebriter quiritantur , esse debeant . * Multa ferent Anni verientes commoda secum . * Though the Cobler and his Last oft troubles them more then all the rest , and makes the Doctors cry out , Ne sutor ultracrepidam , let the Taylor keep to his shop-board ( say they ) and the Shoomaker to his last . So D. Featly D. D. and some others . * Errorum causa Scripturam ( quia lucem Scripture ) fugientes Andabatarum more in tenebris d●micant , at● ; utiolim Hammouitae , Moabitae , & habita●ores montis Sei●is bellum adv . sus , pepulum Dei suscipientes intern●cioni se mutuo d●voven● ; & ad lumen solis hujus ( viz. ) lucis in corde & conscientia cui testatur Scriptura confestim evan●scent , I. O. Ex. 3. S. 3. * Non iisdem rationibus ducti sedilli pro traditinitus , bi pro Scripture tra●scrip●ionibus , translationibus , interpretationilus ac imaginationibus suis , tonquam pro aris f●cisque contendentes ; atque ita ●on secus ac Sampsonis vulpecular , obversis candis ignitas faces in segetes Ecclesiae ferentes , cuncti amicissime e loco suo sacram lucem , sanctum spiritum de qui●us Scriptura loquitur detu●bare aggrediuntur , Ex. 3. S. 4. * This is spoken of some Baptists , who now preach some Doctrines of the Qua. For which they once cast them out of their Assemblies . * Opportet mendacem esse memorem . * Though in the Antitypical sense 't is true enough , that some men not turning to it , being deprived of it at last , for not improving that measure of it , more or less , which as a Talent they were instrusted to trade withall at first , Mat. 25. become , as to the things of God , as blind and bruitish , and short of what those men are that arise out of the fall by it , and beastial Image of Satan , into the Image of God again , who at first created them upright , as the bruit beasts of the field , which are figures of man in the fall , as to the things of the animal , or natural man , a●● s●●rt of him . * Negant lumen hoc naturale esse aut ita dici debere , sed a Christo & Spiritu Christi esse . * Ex. 4. S : 24 : * See Baxt. Epist. The principal work of Papists and Quakers is to take off people from the holy Scripture , and from the reformed faithful Ministers . * Of like sort with those of Underhill , and Blome , in the Fanatick History , who with ground of shame enough ( if he were not past it ) having found a Legend of Lyes , collected out of T. Ds. and others books against the Qua. by he knows not whom , dedicates it , together with his own Haman-like desires , to have them forcibly supprest , unto the King. * Vt cunque ei attendatur I : O : Ex. 4 : S : 17. * Absit blasphemia , far be from us that blasphemy once to think that God lies . * Which is a state different from a non posse peccare . * Tins shews you that men may have a gift of Grace , and yet receive it in vain . * Gradus non variant naturam Rei . * Ex. 4. S. 11. Futetrur quidem Christum lucent esse Mundi , omniumque adeo hominum , quia lux illa Scriptura Sacra fulgens est sufficiens ad perfundendum omnes homines luce Salutari ad quos per Dei providentiam pervenerit . * Ex. 4. S. 24. Lumen & Illuminationem , quarum hie loot mentio facta est , Spirituales esse at que ad Renovationem Gratiae , non Naturales at que i● a●ad Creationem pertinere ; quo sensu enim h●mines tenebrae dicuntur , eo etiam Illuminarr , aliter Aequi'voca esset Apostoli Oratio at , homines Spiritualiter fuisse teneb●as extra controversiam est . * Observe here how these men contradict one another ; I. O. sayes that clause , Coming into the World , relates to the light , so as to say , the true Light coming into the world enlightens every man : I. T. sayes nay , coming into the world relates to man , so as to say , every man coming into the world , see how they concur together by the ears among themselves . * Merae tenebrae & cecitas , quoth I. O. of it . * Merae tenebrae & cecitas , quoth I. O. of it . For it is impossible but that what shows drunkenness to be evil , must needs shew sobriety to be good . * Ex. 3. S. 24. Directionem nostram in cognitione Dei , obedientia ei praestanda ita ut tandem voluntatem ejus facientes , salutem eternam ac ipsius fruitionem assequamur , hunc finem immediatum datioScripturarum atque . adeo ipsarum Scripturarum esse contendimus : Cum vero disciplinae cujusvis perfectio consistat in relatione ad finem , caque perfecta habenda sit qua sufficiens est respectu finis sui proximi , ea vero imperfecta quae finem propositum assequi potis non est , perfectio scripturarum in nulla alia re consistere potest quam in sufficientia sua respectu finis sui proprii , qui est instructio hominum &c. Vt salutem aeternam assequantur : hoc sensu eam perfectissimamasserimus : Ex. 3. S. 39. Cessabit scripturae usus praesenti stat ui accomodatus . Ex. 3. S. 39. Falsissimum est sacram scripturam , dum in hoc mundo haeremus respectu nostri totum sinem suum obtinere aut obtinere posse . * J.O. Ex. 3. S. 39. Fanaticos non esse perfectos nobis Testimonio sunt illorum mendacia , fraudes , scelera , hypocrisis ; iis vero , qui immunes se esse ab his omnibus aliisque peccatis vel levissimis impudenter gloriantur , punitiones & incarcerationes esse debeant . * Memorandum that to A. P. T.D. said 't is corrupt nature by which the heathen Rom. 2. are said to do the things contained in the Law : and here he takes the actions of corrupt natures for some of the things that are to be mortified : it should seem then the heathen [ if it be an action of corrupt nature to do the things of the Law must mortify their deeds done in obedience to the Law , thus it must be according to T. D's . principles . * Witness Gideon twice together before he could believe Isarel should be delivered from Median by his hand for which the Lord was not angry with Him , Judg. 8.6.36 . And Ahar also , with whom the Lord was angry because he would not ask a sign when God bad him , Isa. 7.10.11.12.13.14 . * Where the participle [ perfected ] is construed with the word [ Just men ] not [ Spirits ] Pneumasi Dikaion Teteleiomenon : Notes for div A39574-e552460 * Yet T.D. most strenuously stands to it , that so it is P. 22.1 Pam. saying the Apostle by his own Righteousnesse understands his personal conformity to the Law ; Do you think that the righteousness Paul calls his own was not Christs ? Had he any righteousness which he had not received ? That righteousness which was in the Apostle was wrought in him by Christ , as an efficient cause . * For are there not two righteousnesses [ of Christ ? ] quoth he p. 22. ) and they serve for two different ends ; The one for our justification ( meaning that which was inhaerent in that single person of old at Ierusalem ) This gives us a right to the inheritance of the Saints in Light ; The other for our sanctification ( meaning that he works in his Saints ) th●● though filthyrags ) [ mark ] makes us meet for the possession . * True Characters all along of our present Priesthood , and Schoolmen , & Universities , De quibus haec fabula were narrator . Lux autem haec seu intelligendi facultas , in eam quae maere naturalis est , earnque quae circa res civiles versatur , atque illam quae res spirituales omniaque alia in ordine ad sinem supernaturalem , spiritualem et ultimum discernit , disposcitur : lumen autem hoc intermum spirituale , seu facultas intelligendi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , varium &c. * Lumen hoc internum omnibus commune , utcunque ei attendatur , non est ullo respectu salutare , sed in rebus omnibus divinis , sinem ultimum quod attinet , merae tenebrae et caecitas . * Fx. 1. S. 5 , 6. Figmentum horrendum lumen internum omnibus commune , &c. De fictitio isto sive lumine sive verbo interno et Christo imaginario &c. Ex. 3. S. 11. Fanatici nostrales enthusiasmos nescio quos jactitantes lucē internā atque infallibilitatem inde emergentem , &c. Et S. 22. Lu●en nescio quod , cui nihil commune est cum scripturis , tanquā Doctorem infallibilem sequi , et in omnibus obedire . S. 25. Lumen illud internū Res est omnino ficta atque commentum crasse excogitatum . S. 28. Nihil opus est ullâ revelatione per Spiritum out lumen internum , Enthusiasmum , &c. incerta periculosa inutilia ea omnia media ad cognoscendum Deum atque voluntatem ejus , ideoque rejicienda atque detestanda esse quae simulant fanatici apparet . S. 30 Omnes istas vias et modos cognitionis Dei , ac cum co communionis , quos jactitant Fanatici , rejici ac damnari a spiritu sancto opparet , presertim Angelorum colloquia revelationes alienas a verbo scripto , deinde Spiritum Fanaticorū internū omnibus commune . S. 32. Ad lumen internum seu spiritum internum privatum nusquam nunquam a Deo ablegamur . S. 34. Enthusiasmorum omne genus fallax , incertum , incertissimum , &c. Ex. 4. S. 15. Lux nictans neque è tenebru perniciosissimis emergens : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deo quopiam melius . S. 21. Qualitas nescio quae divina , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , verè Nihil . Si quis seu Quaerit Quare ? seu Queritur Quod hîc loci non curātur vel verbōrum Qualitas , vel syllabōrum Quantitas . Sciat dehinc nos Rusticos nec magisnec minus cūraturos vel Variètatem Verbōrum , vel Quantītatē nostrōrum Syllābīrum , Quam videmus vos Acâdēmīros parum Cūrāre vel Verītātem Verbōrum , vel Qualītātem vostrōrum Syllog smōrum . Notes for div A39574-e582970 (a) Act. 26.17 , 18 (b) 1. Ioh. 1.5.6.7 . (c) Rom. 3.6 , 9. ad 19. [e] Ioh. 46.47.35.36 , 8.12.12 . [f] Psa. 18.28 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 9. ● [g] Esa. 42.6 , 7.43.8.45.3.49.6 . Acts 13.47 . [h] Luk. 2.30 , 31 , 32. [i] Ioh. 3.16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 12. [k] Acts 4.11 , 12. [l] Rom. 2. [m] Rom. 2.14 , 15. Ioh. 1.20 . Psal. 32.1 , 2. Act. 3.26 . Rom. 11.26 . (n) Mat. 11.27 . Gal. 1.16 . (o) Rom. 1.16 . Col. 1.23 . (p) Pro. 6.23 . (q) Heb. 4. (r) Jer. 6.16 . (s) 1 Ioh. 3.20 , 21. (t) Jam. 1.25 . (v) Luk. 17.20 , 21. [w] Gal. 5 19. ad 23. (a) Act. 26.17 , 18 (b) 1. Ioh. 1.5.6.7 . (c) Rom. 3.6 , 9. ad 19. [d] Iohn 1.9 . [e] Ioh. 46.47.35 , 36 , 8.12.12 . [f] Psa. 18.28 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 9. ● [g] Esa. 42.6 , 7.43.8.45.3.49.6 . Acts 13.47 . [h] Luk. 2.30 , 31 , 32. [i] Ioh. 3.16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 12. [k] Acts 4.11 , 12. [l] Rom. 2. [m] Rom. 2.14 , 15. Ioh. 1.20 . Psal. 32.1 , 2. Act. 3.26 . Rom. 11.26 . (n) Mat. 11.27 . Gal. 1.16 . (o) Rom. 1.16 . C●l . 1.23 . (p) Pro. 6.23 . (q) Heb. 4. (r) Jer. 6.16 . (s) 1 Ioh. 3.20 , 21. (t) Jam. 1.25 . (v) Luk. 17.20 , 21. [w] Gal. 5.19 . ad 23. [x] Eph. 5.13 .