A reply to an answer lately published to a book long since written by W.P. entituled A brief examination and state of liberty spiritual &c. by Thomas Ellwood. Ellwood, Thomas, 1639-1713. 1691 Approx. 253 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 52 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-07 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A39306 Wing E624 ESTC R29061 10804892 ocm 10804892 45978 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A39306) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 45978) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1401:30) A reply to an answer lately published to a book long since written by W.P. entituled A brief examination and state of liberty spiritual &c. by Thomas Ellwood. Ellwood, Thomas, 1639-1713. Penn, William, 1644-1718. Brief examination and state of liberty spiritual. [5], 95 p. Printed and sold by T.Sowle, [London] : 1691. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Hogg, John, 17th cent. Society of Friends -- England -- Controversial literature. Freedom of religion -- England. 2003-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-04 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2003-04 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A REPLY TO AN ANSWER Lately Published to a BOOK Long since written by W. P. Entituled , A Brief Examination and State of Liberty Spiritual , &c. By Thomas Ellwood . 2 Tim. 3.13 . Evil men and Seducers shall wax worse and worse , deceiving , and being deceived . Rom. 16.17 . Now I beseech you , Brethren , mark them which cause Divisions and Offences , contrary to the Doctrine which ye have learned , and avoid them . Printed , and Sold by T. Sowle , at the Crooked-Billet in Holloway-Lane , in Shoreditch , 1691. THE PREFACE . IN the Year 1681. there was a small Treatise published by a Friend , under the Title of A Brief Examination of Liberty Spiritual , &c. The occasion of writing that Treatise was , a sense the Author thereof had , and an Observation he had made , how much the Nature of that true Spiritual Liberty was misunderstood by some , and the Name thereof abused by others in the Profession of the Truth ; who , under pretence of being left to that Liberty in themselves , and to their own Freedom therein , both took liberty to do such things as were inconsistent with that true Liberty , and with the Principle of Truth which they professed ; and , despising those useful , good and necessary Helps and Means which the Lord hath provided , and furnished his Church or People with , for the preventing and keeping out such Disorders , Evils and Scandals , as the unruly Nature of man , through such a mistake of true Liberty , might and would bring in , did reject the Counsel ; Admonition or Reproof of their Brethren , with a What hast thou to do with me ? Leave me to my own Freedom . To reclaim ( if it might be ) those that were thus deceived , and prevent others from being so , the Author being pressed in Spirit for Zion's sake , and for the Peace of Jerusalem , and having a deep Sense ( as himself expresses ) of the working of the Enemy of Zion's Peace to rend and divide the Heritage of God , did write the fore-mentioned Treatise for the Establishment of the Faithful , Information of the Simple-hearted , and Reproof of the Arrogant and High-minded ; as his Title Page sets forth . As that Treatise had its Service and Acceptance with the Faithful and Simple-hearted : So it has passed hitherto ( for between nine and ten Years ) free from the Cavils ( at least Publick ) of the Arrogant and High-minded , till now that of late some of them , who are of a restless Spirit ( and to whom it is uneasie to be , or to let others be quiet ) have singled out that Book for a fresh Butt to shoot at , make that a new Occasion to renew Contention , and revive the old Controversie . In order to this they have very lately published a Book , in Answer ( as is pretended ) to several material Passages in that Book . That Answer hath in the Title Page the Letters J. H. as standing for the Author's Name . But since I have no certain knowledge who is meant by those two Letters , and I find the general stile of the Answer , both in the Preface and Book it self , to run in the first Person Plural [ We ] which , by the Advertisement at the End of the Preface , I am told may be understood in respect of those of the same mind with the Author of that Book , I chose in my Reply , to entitle the Adverse Party to it , without regard to any particular Person . They labour much , throughout their Book , to fasten an ugly Imputation or Charge upon the Author of that Treatise they pretend to Answer , of endeavouring to bring in a blind Obedience , an implicit Faith , Conformity before and without Conviction , a Dependence on Men instead of a Dependence on God , endeavouring to obtrude or set up Opinion , or the likeness of Truth , instead of Truth , &c. How far from Truth this Charge is , the following Reply is intended to manifest . How far from true Christianity a man must be that could be guilty of all this , is manifest of it self . The Adversaries therefore , that they might not hereby too much disgust such of their Favourers , as have not wholly cast off all good thoughts of him they thus traduce , make as if they would in Charity excuse the Author from doing those things knowingly ; pretending to believe him both a better Man , and more a Christian. But how unlike Christians they have dealt with him , in Answering his Book , the following Reply will in part discover . Here in their Preface , for the reason of his doing the things they slanderously tax him with , they assign his being deceived through the mysterious working of the Enemy ; which that it may not seem strange , they wish their Reader to consider how many have been deceived thereby , both great and small , and some at times hurried into things grosly Evil , as killing their fellow-Creatures , and yet at the same time think they did God service . But as no good Christian ever did so : So , by the Comparison they have made , they sufficiently shew what a sort of Christian they in reality esteem him to be . Their Preface is so much , both for matter and manner , of the same Piece with their Book , that much of what is in the Preface , will be taken notice of in the Reply to the Book ; to which therefore , for avoiding needless Repetitions , I refer . Yet because they have loosely scattered through their Preface many unsound Expressions , which perhaps may not so fitly be handled in the Reply , I will briefly touch a few of them here ; As Their calling the likeness of Truth a Third thing , besides what is Evil and Good , and saying that it stands betwixt Evil and Good ( though they bring it in with as [ As we may say ] will not hold weight , but unsound . For that which is only like Truth , but is not Truth , doth not stand betwixt Evil and Good , but ( whatever it seems to be ) is really and directly Evil , and stands in and with the Evil. So their making the Covering of the Soul , where the likeness of Truth is received for Truth , &c. to be as the Linnen and Wollen-Garment , forbid to be worm under the Law , is an unfit and unsound Comparison : For neither the Linnen nor the Wollen was Evil , though ( as a Type of Sincerity and Singleness of Heart ) they were then forbidden to be worn in one Garment together ; but either the Linnen might lawfully be worn by it self , or the Wollen by it self . But the likeness of Truth , that which is only like Truth , but is not Truth , may neither be received together with any thing that is Truth , nor alone by it self without Truth . So when they speak of Outward Rules , they say , Every adding of outward Rules , shews a want of Christ's Government by his holy Spirit ; They mistake . If it shews a want of any thing , it shews a want of Subjection to his Government by his holy Spirit , not a want of that Government . Neither is Christ's Government by his holy Spirit incompatible with outward Rules : but whatever outward Rules Christ by his Spirit gives , are consistent with , and agreeable to his Government by his Spirit . So again , when they say , It is certain that no outward Rule , as it concerns a holy Conversation or the worship of God , is of any Service , but until he come : They err . There are many outward Rules in the Scriptures of Truth , that were given by the Spirit of God , which have been , and are of Service to many , after Christ hath been witnessed come . Again , when they say , Every latter Appearance of God is as death to the former ; The Expression is unsavoury , and not sound . For the Appearance of God or Christ do not kill one another , but agree one with another , and Co-operate to the work he intends thereby . But when to this they add , And this is our Case , as well as any that did go before us , &c. They err egregiously : For the Appearance of God in us , did not bring Death to the former Appearance of God in others ( though to the false Appearances and Likenesses thereof it did ) Neither will any further Appearance of God hereafter , bring Death , or be Death , or be as Death to this Appearance of God , whereby God hath made known himself in and to his People in this Age. Again , they say , When the Appearance or Conversation must be measured by certain Rules , it follows what is terms of Communion , or is accepted with God , may not be accepted with men This is a loose Expression , and tends to let up Looseness . Are not Sobriety , Temperance , Chastity , Modesty , Honesty , &c. certain Rules whereby Conversation ought to be measured ? If there must be no certain Rules for measuring Conversation , how shall the most unruly Conversation be blamed , reproved , judged , condemned , and either reformed or rejected ? By these few Instances it may appear , how much they are declined from Truth . The God of Truth knows , I have no other End in this Reply than to defend Truth , and the Children of it , against the slanderous Suggestions , false Charges , and wicked Insinuations of the Adversaries ; to lay Open their deceitful Dealing ; and to remove ( as the Lord shall enable me ) the stumbling-Blocks which they have laid in the way of the Week , whereby they have caused some to fall into Misapprehensions and hard Thoughts of Friends , without cause . And I beseech the God of Mercy to open the Vnderstandings and clear the Sight of all those , whose Simplicity has been betrayed by the Others Subtilty , that they may see and escape the Enemies Snares , and return to the true Fold , from which they have been led astray . A Reply to an Answer , lately published to a Book long since written , entituled , A brief Examination and State of Liberty Spiritual , &c. THe Author of that Book , called , A brief Examination , &c. hath therein truly and soundly defined Spiritual Liberty ; declaring it to be two-fold , True & False , according to the true and false Spirit , which respectively leads into each . The true Spiritual Liberty he defines to be Deliverance from Sin by the perfect Law in the Heart , the perfect Law of Liberty , Iames 2. otherwise called , The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus , that makes free from the Law of Sin and Death ; elsewhere stiled The Law of Truth writ in the Heart , which makes free indeed ▪ as saith Christ , If the Truth make you free , than are you free indeed . So that the Liberty of God's People stands in the Truth , and their Communion in it , and in the Perfect Spiritual Law of Christ Jesus , which delivers and preserves them from every Evil Thing that doth or would embondage . In this blessed Liberty it is not the will or wisdom of man , neither the vain Affections and Lusts that rule , or give Law to the Soul ; for the minds of all such as are made free by the Truth , are by the Truth conducted in doing and suffering through their earthly Pilgrimage . The false Liberty he defines to be A departing from this blessed Spirit of Truth , and a Rebelling against this Perfect Law of Liberty in the Heart , and being at Liberty to do our own Wills ; upon which cometh Reproof and Judgment . This , being the Basis of the work , I thought fit to transcribe at large , that the Reader may plainly see and understand what that Liberty is , both true and false , which was the subject of that Book , and is now of this Controversie . Against this Definition of Spiritual Liberty , I do not find the Answerers of that Book ( for the Answer runs in the plural Number ) take any Exception . For , in the entrance of their Answer , they say , As to the Definition of Liberty Spiritually explained , page the first , We agree upon the matter . But , passing by some Questions and Answers in that Book , tending to shew , in some general Instances , wherein and how far the Members of the Church of Christ may be left to their freedom ; They take-hold of a Question and Answer in the second and third pages , which are thus exprest . Quest. But doth not Freedom extend further than this ; for since God hath given me a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and that I have the Gift of God in my self , should I not be left to act according as I am free and perswaded in my own mind , in the things that relate to God , lest looking upon my self as obliged by what is revealed unto another , though it be not revealed unto me , I should be led out of my own measure , and act upon another's Motion , and so offer a blind Sacrifice to God ? Answ. This is true in a sense , that is , if thou art such a one that canst do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth , then mayst thou safely be left to thy freedom in the things of God , and the Reason is plain ; Because thy freedom stands in the perfect Law of Liberty , in the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus , and in the Truth , which is Christ Jesus , which makes thee free indeed , that is , perfectly free from all that is Bad , and perfectly free to all that is Holy , Just , Lovely , Honest , Comely and of good Report ; But if thou pleadest thy Freedom against such things , yea , obstructest and slightest such good , wholsome and requisit things , Thy Freedom is naught , dark , perverse , out of the Truth , and against the perfect Law of Love and Liberty . The Question , as stated above , the Adversaries find no fault with , but approve and applaud , often calling it a Weighty Question . But for all that , they either mistake , or wilfully pervert it . For whereas the plain and express Terms of the Question are these , [ Since God hath given me a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and that I have the Gift of God in my self , should I not be left , &c. ] They , in their Sophistical Glosses upon it , vary the Terms , and instead of [ God 's having given , &c. ] They render it [ where the Gift of God is received to profit withal : ] And instead of [ I have the Gift of God in my self ] They put [ such as do adhere to it ] As if there were no difference ( or They knew , or regarded none ) betwen God's having given a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and man's having received this Gift of God to profit withal : Betwixt man's having the Gift of God in himself , and his Adhering ( that is , joyning and cleaving close ) unto this heavenly Gift . Whereas the Spiritually-minded know , not only that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal , according to 1 Cor. 12.7 . ( though too many receive it not , but reject and rebel against it ▪ ) but that , even of those that have professed to have received it , all have not received it to that good end & benefit for which it was given , namely , to profit thereby . Neither have all who have had the Gift of God in themselves , adhered thereto : But many have wholly kickt against it ; and some who have pretended to adhere to it , have , instead thereof , adhered to its and their own Enemy , not to their profit , but to their Loss and Ruin , and to the Trouble and disquiet of the Church , of which they held themselves to be Members . Now that the Adversaries have thus wrested the Question , shall appear in their own words ; for after they have ( without much variation ) recited the Question and Answer , they in their own Answer thereto , pag. 2. say , That this Question above is weighty , is clear , for the whole Controversie seems included in it ; For where the Gift of God is Received to profit withal , they have liberty and freedom to chuse or refuse things , according as they are perswaded , or they have not ; and all this ( say they ) is included in the Question . Here , they have put in the word [ received ] thereby turning the ground of the Question from God's having given , to man's having received the Gift of God to profit withal . Again , say they , The Question is , whether freedom and Liberty do not extend further than outward things , that is , Whether it doth not reach to the things of God , where the Gift of Gods is Received according to the Question ; Whenas the word [ Received ] is not in the Question . Again , taking upon them in a conceited humour , to turn the Question into a Position or Assertion , they say , It will follow thus , or to this effect , that true Liberty and freedom reacheth to the things of God , to all that have received the Gift of God to profit withal ; for such , as they do adhere to it , have liberty and freedom in the fear of God to chuse , &c. Now having thus wrested the Question , by varying the Terms in which the Author had laid it down , Their next work is to Cavil at his Answer ; which , though it answered his Question , does not answer theirs , at least not to their minds . And first I take notice , as if they had a mind to play the Criticks , and shew some little skill in Pedantry , they fall a Word-pecking , and Carp at his manner of expressing himself . It seems as if they thought him deficient in Grammer , and that he understood not Congruity of Speech . The beginning of his Answer was , This is true in a sense . For this they take him up . It seems rather ( say they , pag. 2. ) to take the Question to be an Assertion , than a Question in our Iudgment ; for ( say they ) it follows thus , That this Question is true in a sense , which to us is neither clear nor very proper , a Question in some sort being a matter undetermined till affirmed or denyed . Surely , one would think , they might have spared their Censure on another , unless they had learn'd to speak with more clearness and better sense themselves . How would they be understood , that a Question in some sort is a matter undetermined till affirmed and denyed ? Is it undetermined in some sort , and determined in some other sort , before it be either affirmed or denyed ? Or is a Question , with them , a matter determined so soon as it is affirmed or denyed ? They have found out , sure , an easie way of determining Questions , if either affirming or denying will determin the matter . But to make this pretended Solaecisme upon the Author of the Book they pretend to Answer , They abuse his words : for they say , It follows thus ( meaning , in his Book ) that this Question is true in a sense . But without Question , They put in the word Question in that place : for it doth not follow so in his Book . His Book doth not say , This Question is true in a sense : But , This is true in a sense . This ; the Matter , Substance , Subject of the Question : not the Question ( which is but a form of Speech ) but the thing questioned ; which if They know not how to distinguish , They are the less fit to take upon them to correct Others , him especially . Next , I observe they except against the Answer as insufficient . They say , pag. 2. The Answer , if worthy of that Name , is slight and evasive , no way deserving to be reputed or accepted as a true Answer to this weighty Question . Again , We find no direct Answer , neither directly affirming or denying the Question . Again , We see the Question is rather avoided than answered . All this in one page . And with such abusive Slights their Book abounds . But in this They do but beat the Air with empty Noise and Clamour , roving in Uncertainties and Self-inconsistencies . One while they say , The Answer is no way deserving to be reputed a true Answer , as in pag. 2. Another while they confess , It is true in the sense he grants , pag. 4. Now 't is not a full Answer , pag. 4. Anon , 't is Nothing to the purpose , p. 6. This befalls them , because They go from the plain and simple Truth , from the true Light , to grope in the dark , with their own Guessings , Conjectures , Conceivings and Suppositions , built upon this [ If ] and to'ther [ If ; ] from which They as confidently force Conclusions , as if their Suppositions were the plainest Positions ; their Conjectures , the clearest Demonstrations . Of this , Instances may be seen in their 3. and 4. pages , where attempting to find out by their [ If 's ] whether the Author's Answer be full or nay to the Question , They say , Either this Question , if affirmed , is true in a larger sense , then he has granted , or it 's but true in this sense . If true in a larger sense , it follows ( say They , but not without another [ If ] though ) If his aim and design , as he says , was to assert the Truth , he has missed his mark . This were to suppose it impossible to hit the mark , if a Question be true in a larger sense than it is answered . Which Supposition no man of sense , I suppose , will allow of . So again , a little lower , If ( say they ) I must not act as I am perswaded , then I must act as others are perswaded . What necessity is there for that ? Where lies the [ must ] in this case ? Is there no medium between my not acting as I am perswaded , and acting as others are perswaded ? What if , in such a Case , I should for a while forbear acting , not act at all , but humbly wait upon God , to receive from him the like Perswasion that my Brethren have , that so I also may act with them upon my own perswasion ? Were there any hurt in this ? nay , were not this a good sign of a right Christian Mind and Spirit ? Again , they say , pag. 3. Either he believes his Answer is full to the Question , or he believes and knows it is not : If he believes and knows it is not full , then must he not only not have asserted the Truth as above , but also be conscious wherefore he did it not ; and we conceive ( there 's another of their Conceptions ? ) that must either be because he wanted ability , or because he wanted Truth in his way . Here are a pair of inconclusive Conclusions together , pieced out with a shallow Conceit of their own ; which I should not have thought worth taking notice of , but to shew the well-meaning Reader , what false ways of Reasoning they work by , to beguile the simple . Amongst whom though such sort of Reasoning may pass for currant , and perhaps be thought of some force by such as , through yeilding to the Enemies suggestions against the Truth , are become vailed and clouded in their understandings : yet to the opened Eye , the single Eye , the inlightned mind , it appears , as indeed it is , empty , shallow , trivial , weak and false . Now as to the Answer it self , after all their vilifying of it , it will appear to the honest-minded to be pertinent , proper and full enough to the Question to which it was given . The Adversaries , I perceive , expected an Answer to consist only in a Yea , or Nay : and they account the Answer not direct , because ( as they think ) it does not directly affirm or deny . But it is their want of skill ( if without offence they may be told so ) that makes them think an Answer not direct , unless it be exprest by Yea or Nay . As the Answer relates to the Question , so the Question related to ( as being grounded on ) the Definition of spiritual Liberty , which the Author had given before . That therefore the Answer they except so much against may appear to be both proper , full and direct enough to the Question , I desire both the Question it self , and the Definition of that Liberty propounded in it , ( and on which it is grounded ) may be seriously and impartially weighed together . The true spiritual Liberty , on which the Question was grounded , was defined to be Deliverance from Sin by the Perfect Law in the Heart , the perfect Law of Liberty , &c. ( as is before set down at large . ) And this Definition the Adversaries have subscribed to . The Question that follows , and is grounded upon , this Definition of spiritual Liberty or freedom , is this ; Since God hath given me a Manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and that I have the Gift of God in my self , should I not be left to act according as I am free and perswaded in my own mind , in the things that relate to God , &c. Now consider ; since it is certain , that this Gift of God is universal , that the Manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal : and yet no less certain , that All who have this Gift in themselves , are not subject to it ; that All to whom the Manifestation of the Spirit is given to profit withal , have not received the Gift ; nay , that of them who do profess to have received it , All have not so received it , as to profit therewithal , to be redeemed thereby into the true Spiritual Liberty : These things , I say , considered , such a positive , absolute , undistinguishing Answer , as the Adversaries expected and call for , of a simple granting or denying the Question , by a positive Yea or Nay , without distinction or explanation , could not in Truth have been given . For that had been to say , that none ought to be left to their freedom , no , not They , who by receiving the divine Gift in themselves , subjecting to it , and growing up in it , are truly thereby brought to the true Freedom indeed , the Freedom that stands in Truth , the true Spiritual Liberty : Or that All ought to be left to their freedom in the things relating to Go●● even they who through their alienation from God , know nothing of either this true Libety , or the Gift that leads to it ; or They that , professing to know it , and to have received it , live not in subjection to it , and so are not brought to the true Spiritual Liberty by it ; but have a freedom out of the Truth , a freedom to do such things as the Truth condemns . The Author therefore , rightly distinguishing these different states , answered aptly to the Terms of his Question ; granting the Question in a right sense , but not in a wrong sense . For the Question not opening the particular state of the Party demanding this freedom , but being grounded only upon the Gift or Manifestation given ( which is applicable not only to all in the Profession of Truth , how disorderly and scandalous so ever , but even to all mankind ) and not mentioning the Parties having received the Gift in the love of it , closed with it to an improvement of it to a profiting therewith , and dwelt in a subjection thereunto ( which alone brings into the true Spiritual Liberty ) therefore the Author , that he might divide his Answer aright , said , If thou art such an one that canst do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth ( as much as to say , If thou art indeed come by thy subjection to the Heavenly Gift given thee , into the true Spiritual Liberty , and thy freedom stand in that ) then mayst thou safely be left to thy freedom in the things of God , and the Reason ( said He ) is plain : Because thy freedom ( the freedom thou wouldst be left to ) stands in the perfect Law of Liberty , &c. As much as to say , thy freedom , if this be thy state , is the true spiritual Liberty before defined ; and therefore thou mayst safely be left to that , both with respect to thy self , and to the Church of Christ , which thou art a Member of , since that freedom will not lead thee to do any thing against the Truth , but all for the Truth . ( And herein , it is evident , the Author had direct Relation to that Definition of true Spiritual Liberty which he had given before , and which the Adversary now agree to ) But on the other hand , If thou who demandest to be left to thy freedom in the things of God , art not come to this true spiritual Liberty ; but notwithstanding God hath given thee a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and that thou professest in words to have received this Gift , yet thou hast not so closed with , and subjected to this divine Gift , as to have profited therewithal , and so art not come into this true Spiritual Liberty ; but by rebelling against the perfect Law of Liberty in thy Heart , thou art gotten into a false Liberty , a false freedom , a freedom to do such things as are out of Truth ; then it is not safe , either for thy self , or for the Church of Christ ( which thou seemest to joyn with ) for thee to be left to this freedom of thine , since that will lead thee to act not for the Truth , but against the Truth , to bring dishonour to the Truth , disturbance to the Church , and destruction to thy self . The Author therefore , having granted that such as are come to the true Spiritual Liberty in and by the Truth , should be left to their Freedom in that ; added , But if thou pleadest thy freedom against such things as are Holy , Iust , Lovely , Honest , Comely , and of good Report , yea , obstructest and slightest such good , wholsome and requisit things , thy freedom is naught , dark , perverse , out of the Truth , and against the perfect Law of Love and Liberty . And thus , to the Spiritually-minded , who consider the Definition above given of Spiritual Liberty , & take the Question , as it was stated by the Author himself , I make no doubt but it will appear , that the Answer given by him thereto , was plain , proper , direct and full enough . But the Adversaries shew what they would be at : for they say , p. 4. The Question affirmed as above , is certainly not only true in a part , or in a sense , as he is pleased to say , but it is true in every part , true in the whole and every sense that a Position can be true in ; Nay , it is so far true , that if it can be wrong at all , 't is only in a sense , and that is only when misapplied . Reply . These few Lines yield much matter to be considered ; 1 st . When they say the Question affirmed as above , they must mean the Question , as it lies in the Author 's own Terms and Book , or as they have new modelled it , formed , transformed and deformed it , perverted and wrested it to their own sense in their Book . If they mean the latter , they prevaricate foully . If they intend the former , viz. That the Question , as stated and laid down ( or , to answer their conceit affirmed ) in the Author 's own Terms , is true ( that is , is to be granted , or held in the affirmative ) in every part , in the whole , and in every sense that a Position can be true in : then , since the Question assigns no other Qualification to the Party demanding to be left to act according to his freedom , but that which is common to the most scandalous Professor , to the vilest Apostate , yea , to all mankind , namely , that God hath given him a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , and that he hath the Gift of God in himself ( which many that have it , rebel against , and are so far from profiting with it , that they do despight unto it , it will follow , according to the Adversaries sense , that All such as God hath given a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , All such as have the Gift of God in themselves , how disobedien● soever they are to it , how Heady and High-minded soever , how unruly and turbulent soever , how factious and quarrelsom soever in the Church , must notwithstanding be left to act as they are free ( though they are free to act what is out of Truth ) and the Church be obliged to own and receive them as Brethren and fellow-Members in their so acting . But though this be the Consequence of the Adversaries Arguing , yet it is directly contrary to the Apostle's counsel , Rom. 16.17 . & 2 Tim. 3.5 . Secondly , when They say , The Question is true in every part , true in the whole , and every sense that a Position can be true in ; And then add , It is so far true , that If it can be wrong at all , 't is only in a sense ; They seem to me to run at once into an Uncertainty and a Contradiction . A contradiction , in admitting it capable of being wrong in any sense , after they have so positively affirmed it to be true in every sense . An Uncertainty , in saying , If it can be wrong at all ; which shews They haesitate , They doubt , They are not well assured , They are but in the Uncertainty : And themselves say in the same page , but a few lines lower , An Vncertainty admitted for the Truth in this case , stands in the nature of a Lye. To this they add another Paradox ; for having said , If the Question be wrong at all , 't is only in a sense , and that is only when misapplied ; They add , But the misapplication of this weighty Question when affirmed , doth neither destroy it in its self , nor in the least take away the true use . This , in a Parenthesis , They bid us Observe . And truly they must be observant Readers indeed , that can observe any Congruity of Sense or Reason in this Passage ; or understand how that can be misapplied to any one , which ( according to their sense ) is applicable to every one . But it is very probable , that what They here say of this weighty Question , as they so often call it , is intended rather of the Question , or Position they have made ( for they have turn'd it from one to to'ther ) than of the Question propounded by that Author : for they here immediately subjoyn their Creed , as if they deduced it from the Question ; but in such Terms as are only in their own Question , not in his . Thus they word it . Therefore we believe , where the Gift of God is received to profit withal , and truly adhered to , there must be a Liberty to chuse and refuse things , according as such are perswaded , even from the Babe in Christ , to the Strong Man , and so to all states : ( in Christ I suppose they mean. ) This shews how little they understand the Question , and the ground of it . For the Babe in Christ , he that is truly in Christ , though but in a Babish state , abiding in him , can do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth ; though he may not be able to do so much for the Truth , as a Strong Man , or Father in Christ can do . He that hath so received the Gift of God , as to profit therewithal , and doth truly adhere thereunto , be his measure of growth or stature therein what it will , yet , abiding and growing up therein , That will lead him to chuse , and with freedom to embrace , whatsoever is Holy , Just , Lovely , Honest , Comely , and of good Report . So that such as one in that Capacity , wherein ( according to the Author's Answer to the Question , concerning being left to act as he is free , &c. ) he may safely be left to his freedom in the things of God. Thus , after all their Clamour against the Answer to the Question , as no way deserving to be reputed a true Answer , not worthy of that name , of no use or service with respect to the Controversie , worth nothing , nothing to the purpose &c. because not large enough , not comprehensive enough ( as they think ) to take in All ; They , with all their stretching and wresting , have brought it but to the same pass , to them only that are in Christ. And they tell us , pag. 7. That Man must be made a New Creature , and must travel through the whole Mystery of Iniquity , before ▪ he can come into Christ ; and that , though the Enemy , that fallen Angel , can go with Man into every Remove , while man is fitting and preparing , yet into Christ he cannot come . So that , with them , a man being come to be in Christ , is out of the Enemies reach . Thus , ( though , exercising themselves in things too high for them , They utter what they understand not , ) yet they bring the matter to the same Issue and result , that the Author 's own Answer left it in . For they that are thus come through the Travel , beyond the fitting and preparing , beyond the whole Mystery of Iniquity , into Christ , and out of the Enemy's reach , being entred where he cannot come : These are sure in as high an Estate as those can be , who the Author said may safely be left to their freedom in the things of God. The difference then lies not between such as are in different growths in Christ ; but between Those that are really in him , and Those that are not in him , though they may profess to believe in him . The danger is not of the Babe , muchless of the strong Man , in Christ : But of the strong Man out of Christ ; him that is strong in his own Will , in his own Conceit , being heady , high-minded , Contentious , Quarrelsom , Impatient ; who , if he cannot in all things be humoured , and have his own way , flies out into open Opposition , to work Division and Separation , as these Adversaries have done . For however ; They now palliate , and in words smooth over the Liberty and freedom They pretend to , as if it were only a Liberty to chuse or refuse things according as they are perswaded : yet their Practice ( which in this case is the best Discoverer of Intentions ) hath sufficiently manifested what freedom , what Liberty They seek ; A Liberty to Oppose Friends in such Things as Friends are satisfied in ; A Liberty to reproach , revile , despise , scoff and Jeer at those Things that are conscientiously received and practised by Friends , and which Themselves neither have shewed , nor can shew any Evil to be in , but only pretend They are not Convinced of the Needfulness or Usefulness of them ; A Liberty to revile and vilifie Friends in Print , under the names of Apostates , Innovators , Introducers of Popery , and but one step from it , Idolaters , Setters up of Images , Idol-Prophets , a treacherous Company , possest with the Spirit of Belial , Mercinary Judges , Self-seeking slavish Drudges , led by Satan , &c. A Liberty to rend off , divide and separate from Friends , and set up separate-Meetings , in divers parts and places , out of the Unity of Friends , and in direct Opposition to them ; And yet after all this , and in the midst of all this , and maintaining all this , to come when and where They please , to Friends Meetings , as pretending to joyn with Friends in Worship , and impose upon Friends their Preaching and Praying , and expect that They ( who have given the highest Demonstrations of Their being our greatest Enemies , and persist therein ) should notwithstanding be owned and received as Friends , as Brethren , as Preachers , as Ministers of Christ amongst us . This is the Liberty They have taken , this the freedom they plead and press for . And this is such a piece of Hypocrisie , and gross Deceit as , I verily believe , cannot be paralleled among all the Pretenders to Christian Religion . This to be sure is a Mystery of Iniquity ; And therefore , seeing They pretend not to extend the Liberty , of chusing and refusing things , according as They are perswaded , to any but such as are in Christ , p. 4. And that They must travel through the whole Mystery of Iniquity , before they can come into Christ , p. 7. They must needs travel out of these things before mentioned , before they can pretend to be within the compass of their own Plea. In their 4th page , They say , Forasmuch as he neither hath , nor we believe , can give us any certain undoubted Rule , how to know who these are that are so to be left , all that he hath said by way of affirming this great Question , is worth nothing ; for as it is altogether unintelligible , 't is every way impracticable . Again , If any certain Rule can be given to know who may be left to their Liberty as above , let us have it ( say they ) and by the contrary Rule we shall know who may not be so left . Reply ; By this They shew themselves to be out of the Truth , in the Uncertainty . If they were in the Truth , they would not be to seek of a certain Rule in this case , the Spirit of Truth giving Certainty and Assurance to them that are guided by it , though not to them that resist it . Now though they have not explain'd what they mean by Who these are , or how they expect a Description of them , whether by Qualifications , or by Personal Marks ; yet each way they are wrong . For if they would have a Rule to know them by Qualifications , they themselves ( with sufficient Contradiction to themselves , while they make as if they believed no such Rule can be given ) have adventured to give it , assigning them to be such as are in Christ , even from the Babe in Christ to the strong Man , and so to all states ( but still in Christ. ) Now that this cannot take in ( even in their own sense ) the whole promiscuous Number of those that go to Friends Meetings , that hear Truth preached , or that by Tongue , or outward Profession only , confess to the Truth of the Principle , their own Description or Explanation of what it is to be in Christ , pag. 7. will manifest : For there they tell us , that Man must be made a new Creature before he can come into Christ , he must travel through the whole Mystery of Iniquity ; that the Rest is only by being in Christ , the Travel is while he appears in us to fit us for himself , for 't is ( say they ) the New Creature that only finds room in him . ( So then the Travel must be over before they come to be in Christ ) For , say they , the Enemy , that fallen Angel , can go with Man into every Remove , whilst man is fitting and preparing , but into Christ he cannot come . These are some of the Qualifications by which they describe who should be left to their freedom , &c. But if this may pass for a Rule with them , why may not that as well , which the Author of that Book they pretend to answer , laid down therein , viz. that they may safely be left to their freedom in the things of God , who are such as can do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth ; such whose freedom stands in the perfect Law of Liberty ? If they ask , But by what certain or undoubted Rule shall we know who are such ? I Reply ; When they have told me , by what certain or undoubted Rule they know who are in Christ , according to the Explanation they have given of being in Christ , that is , who they are that are certainly and undoubtedly made New Creatures ; who they are that have certainly and undoubtedly travelled through the whole Mystery of Iniquity ; who they are that have certainly and undoubtedly gone beyond , where the Enemy can go , into Christ where he cannat come ; I will then tell them , who they are whose freedom stands in the perfect Law of Liberty , &c. They add , But if no such Rule ( that is , no certain or undoubted Rule ) can be given , it must follow , All must be left free , or None must be left . Reply ; They are very quick at their Consequences . But it concerns them to see that their Consequence contains no more than their Premises . When they say , All must be left free ; what All do they mean ? All that are called Quakers ? or only All that are in Christ , from the Babe in Christ upward ? If they say only All that are in Christ , ( according to the Description they have given of being in Christ ) what more or other is that , than the Author they carp at had said before ? If they mean All that are called Quakers , that 's more ( by their leave ) than is in their Premises . For there they say , Therefore we believe , where the Gift of God is received to profit withal , and truly adhered to , there must be a Liberty to chuse and refuse things according as such are perswaded , even from the Babe in Christ , to the strong Man , &c. And sure they will hardly say , that All that are called Quakers have so received the Gift , have so adhered to it , have so profited with it , as to be really in Christ ( and that according to their forecited Description of being in Christ ) though but in a Babish state or degree . They were therefore too hasty in their Conclusion that All must be left free , or None . They should have remembred , that the Definition of true Spiritual Liberty ( to which they say they agree ) was , Deliverance from Sin by the perfect Law of Liberty in the Heart , a being made free indeed by Christ the Truth . All have not this freedom . They cannot be left to it , who neither have it , nor know it . Must therefore None be left to it , although they know it , and have it ? They should have considered , that Spiritual Liberty was declared to be two-fold ; True , and False : So that there is a false Liberty , a false freedom , as well as a True ; a Liberty to do our own Wills , upon which comes Reproof and Judgment . Examinat . of Lib. Spir. p. 1. Would they have All , nay , would they have any left to this freedom , to this Liberty , to do their own Wills , in Opposition to God's Will ? That would bring Reproof and Judgment indeed . Now because it is a pleasing and desirable thing to man's Nature to be left to its Freedom , to be at Liberty to do , or not do , what it pleases , and how it pleases , in Religious , as well as in Civil matters ; whereupon it may sound harsh in the Ears of some , that any should not be absolutely and unquestionably left to their own Freedom , to do what they think fit , without being accountable to others : Therefore that I may remove all grounds of Offence and Stumbling on this occasion , out of the way of such as are honest-minded , I am willing here , as briefly as with plainness I can , to open the matter further . First therefore , a little to explain the Terms , and shew what is meant by those words [ Not to be left to ones Liberty to act as one is free , &c. ] I take the meaning thereof to be , that no Person , who doth profess to be a Member of a true Christian Society , ought , or hath right to plead any Exemption , upon the account of his Liberty or Freedom , from being called to an Account by that Society which he professes to be a Member of , in case such Person shall do any thing repugnant to the Principles of that Society , or tending to the Defamation or hurt thereof . But that every such Society hath power to call any such professed Member to an Account , in order to inform him , and open his understanding , if he be weak and dark ; to Reprove , Rebuke , and Exhort him to Repentance , if he prove heady , wilful , contentious and Unruly ; And if he obstinatly persist therein , to refuse any further Fellowship with him , until he manifest true Repentance . This is the Power , the utmost Power , that the Church of Christ claims , namely to Inform , Instruct , Reprove , Admonish , Exhort to Repentance such of her professed Members as go astray , and ( if nothing less will serve ) to refuse Communion with the Impenitent , and those that reject her , and declare them not to be of her . Now that it may appear how reasonable as well as needful it is , that there should be such Power in the Church of Christ , I desire the Reader , in the next place , to consider , that in the best Religious Societies of men , there have always been ( as to outward Profession ) Good and Bad , True and False , Right and Wrong . With Israel of old there came up , out of Egypt , a mixt Multitude , or a great mixture , Exod. 12.38 . Besides which , many of the Israelites themselves , when they came to be tryed in the Wilderness , proved to be Murmurers , Complainers , Gain sayers and Rebellious : So that the Apostle rightly observed , they are not all Israel , which are of Israel , Rom. 9.6 . In the Christian Church , at the first gathering thereof , many that walked a while with Christ , so far as to be reputed his Disciples , wont back ▪ and walked no more with him , Iohn 6.66 . How ▪ it was afterward , in the Apostles times , the Epistles of the Apostles sufficiently show . There were in the Church at Corinth , some that were carnal , and walked as men , 1 Cor. 3.3 . There were many , the Apostle tells the Philippians , that so walked , that they were the Enemies of the Cross of Christ , Phil. 3.18 . There were some in the Church at Thessalonica , that walked disorderly , 2 Thes. 3.11 . There were some in the Church in Fergamos , that held the Doctrine of Balaam , who taught Balack to cast a stumbling-Block before the Children of Israel , to eat things sacrificed to Idols , and to commit Fornication ( for by that name doth the Holy Ghost call those unlawful Marriages , of Believers with Unbelievers , which Balaam taught Balack to draw the Children of Israel into with the Midianitish Women . ) Rev. 2.14 . There were some also in that Church , as well as in the Church in Ephesus , that held the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans ver . 6. & 15. Which by Ecclesiastical Writers is delivered to have been Community of Wives , as well as of other things . And sure enough it was some great Evil , which Christ exprest his Hatred of . There was in the Church in Thyatira the Woman Iezabel , seducing ( like Balaam ) to Fornication , &c. Not to fetch instances out of every Church , there were some that walked after the Flesh , in the Lust of Uncleanness , 2. Pet. 2.10 . These were presumptuous , self-willed , despised Government , and spake Evil , not only of Dignities , but of things they understood not , ver . 12. Yet these were great sticklers for Liberty : for They promised Liberty to such as they allured , being themselves mean while the Servants of Corruption , ver . 19. Of whom a more full description may be seen in the rest of that Chapter , and in the Epistle of Iude. Thus it was in those times . How it hath been in our time , since the Lord first gathered us to be a peculiar People to himself , they must have had but little Experience , or made but little Observation , that need to be informed . How many that have walked for a while ( some for some years ) with Friends in the Profession of Truth , have turned their backs thereon , and gone off , some into the Sea again , some into Nets ! What has been the general pretence of these , but want of Liberty ? the way of Truth was too strait for them ? they wanted a broader way . How many , even of them that retained the Profession of Truth , have slept aside , some into one odd thing , some into another , under pretence that they had Freedom so to do ? Did not they that ran out in I. Perot's business , plead being left to their Freedom , to their Liberty ? They did so : and by that Plea were some , to my knowledge , betrayed into that snare . Now since it is evident , by the Instances given , that in the true Church in all times , there have been ( as to outward Profession ) Bad as well as Good , wrong as well as right , what can be more reasonable , than that there should be in the true Church such a Power , as may enable those that are right to acquit themselves , their Principle and Profession from the Disorders , of whatsoever kind , committed by them that are wrong ; which they can never do , if those that are wrong may exempt themselves from being called to account , and reproved for their Disorders , by alleadging that what they have done , they had Liberty and Freedom in themselves to do . Now this hath happened , in a great part , through a misunderstanding and misapplication of true Spiritual Liberty . For though all that have received , and are indeed guided by the Grace of God and Spirit of Truth , are to be left to it , to act for God in the Liberty and Freedom that it gives . Yet for any to infer from thence , that every one that pretends to the Grace of God and Spirit of Truth , ( though it be too apparent that they are not subject thereunto ) must be left to that Freedom , which they call ( and in one sense rightly enough ) their own , to that Liberty which they have set up in and for themselves , though it leads such to thwart , oppose , gain-say and disturb the rest of the same Society ; this is not right , but ( whatever else may be pretended ) is both wrong it self , and an Inlet for that which is wrong . For the meaning of that Plea , that every one ought to be left to his Freedom , &c. Is this , that none should be accountable , or answerable to the Church , or Congregation they are reputed to be of , for what they do , ( that is not simply Evil , or Evil in it self , as the Adversaries in their Book distinguish ) so that , although what they do be disorderly , and that which either directly , or by Consequence , tends to bring scandal , and trouble upon the whole Society ; it is enough to stop the Churches Mouth , for such an one to say , I have Liberty and Freedom in my self to do so or so . And thereupon the Church may not judge , may not reprove , may not blame such an One ; but must be obliged to own and receive such an one as a Friend , a Brother in the Truth ( though walking out of Truth ) as a member of the Body ( though acting against the Body . ) This were to set up a false Liberty , to overthrow the true Liberty ; to give Liberty to Particulars , and take it from the General : which to do , were contrary to Truth , and to true Reason . For surely , how much Liberty soever a Part may claim , the whole may claim as much . And therefore , if each Particular hath Liberty to choose , or refuse things , according as they are perswaded the things are right or wrong ( which it is fit they should : ) Why should not the whole have like Liberty to receive , or refuse such Persons , with respect to Membership , according as they are perswaded that such Persons , so acting , are in , or out of , that Spirit in which the true Membership stands ? But this Liberty the Church should be deprived and debarred of , if she were bound ( as the Adversaries would bind her ) to own and receive for members all such as make any Profession of Truth , though walking and acting contrary to Her , and ( as she believes ) to Truth , under pretence that they walk and act according to their own Liberty and Freedom . He that would shun the Cross of Christ in any Testimony that Truth leads to , hath scope enough under this Plea to do it . He that , for advantage or fear , will break Christ's Command , and Swear , can say he hath freedom so to do , and is not perswaded in his own mind of the unlawfulness thereof . He that , to shun Sufferings , will pay Tythes to the Hireling-Priest ; He that will Marry by the Priest , or take in Marriage one that is not in the Profession of Truth , hath the same Plea for his Shelter ; and so in other Cases of Evil. This the Adversaries saw , but saw not how to Answer : And therefore in their 5th page , having said , There 's but one Objection , and that is , that this ( leaving all to act according as they are free , &c. ) is to give Liberty to Evil ; they add , Which we may speak to in another place . And so they shift it off in this place . And having thus given it the Go-by here , never give any direct Answer to it ( that I observe ) throughout their whole Book . In their 19th page they touch it , but presently start back , and slide off of it again . There they say , What can hinder the putting this in practice , but the Devil in the likeness of Truth , perswading this was to give Liberty to Evil ? Then add , 'T is a mistake to think , this is to give Liberty to Evil , while our End , we are sure , bears witness to the contrary . Rep. They are sure ! What Assurance doth their saying , they are sure give to others ? Their witness-bearing , as it is of themselves , and for themselves , may perhaps reach no further than to themselves . But suppose Charity should extend it further , and on that foot it should be granted , that their End , or Intention , is not to give Liberty to Evil. Doth it therefore follow that that unlimitted Plea , for leaving every one so to act , according as they are free and perswaded in their own minds , as not to be accountable for their actings , may not give Liberty to Evil ? May not People have a wrong freedom , a freedom to do Evil , and a false Perswasion in their own minds , that that wrong freedom is a right one , notwithstanding that God hath given them a manifestation of his Spirit to profit withal , if they do not ( and it is too plain that too many do not ) obey and follow the leadings of that good Spirit , that they may profit thereby ? But what Answer do the Adversaries now give to that One Objection , which they took notice of in their 5th page , and then made a shew as if they would speak of it in another place ? Truly none at all . But instead of answering it ( which was reasonably to be expected from them ) they excuse themselves , but very poorly , from Answering : for after they have told us , They are sure their End is not to give Liberty to Evil , they add ▪ But to Answer All the Objections that may be made , as it would take up too much time , so perhaps we may not know all that may be advanced ; so we shall Omit that , till we are better informed of them , as also , till more fitting Opportunity do occur . Rep. A dull Come-off ! Who , that were shameless , might not , at this rate , avoid Answering any Objection that lies hard upon them , by pretending it would take up too much time to answer all Objections , and that perhaps they may not know all that may be advanced ? They told us in their 5th page , There is but one Objection ; and that is , That this is to give Liberty to Evil ; and they made a kind of Promise to speak to that in another place . ( Why did they not answer this One Objection , which themselves had advanced ? ) Now , because they know not what to say to it , nor how to Answer that One Objection ; they pretend it would take up too much time to Answer all the Objections that may be made , and that perhaps they may not know all that may be advanced . Is not this pittiful Shuffling ? Is not this mean Trifling for men ! for such men ! for men so cryed up , as some of them are ? Perhaps , say they , we may not know all that may be advanced . What then ? should that hinder them from taking notice of what they did , or might know , of what was advanced ? Did not the Book they pretend to Answer enumerate several Particular Evils , which the Enemy by that Plea ( of leaving every one to act as he is free , &c. ) is introducing a Liberty to , as Paying Tythes to Hireling-Priests ; Marrying by the Priest , Declining a publick Testimony in suffering times , or hiding in times of Persecution , Worshipping and respecting the Persons of men ; and Observing the World's Holy-days and Mass-days ( as they call them ? ) Why did they not Answer these that were advanced , as there phrase is ? Did they want to be better inform'd , whether These are Evils or no ? They could not but know , that most of these Evils have been closely charged , as the Fruits of that Spirit they are now joyned to . And their so slightly slipping over them now , is no good sign that they are wholly clear and free from them . They boast indeed of Life and Conversation ; but distinguish not ( that I observe ) betwixt Conversation Civil and Religious , betwixt that which relates to the World , and that which more especially respects the Church of God. 'T is true , they say in general words , p. 43. with respect to Lives and Conversations , Place your Iudgment upon what is Evil , and spare not , for there it will stand ; for we plead not for Evil in any . And again , We grant that any may reporve Evil , and what is Immoral , &c. p. 46. But their explaining Evil by the terms Immoral , and simply Evil ( as in pag. 39. where they say , If Nothing that is simply Evil or Immoral , can be charged upon your Brethren , &c. And in p. 44. Though nothing that is Immoral , or Evil in it self can be proved against them ) shews they mean by Immoral , such open Prophaneness and Debaucheries as Human Laws correct . And so , notwithstanding their pretending Not to plead for Evil in any , their Plea may indulge and countenance those Evils before mentioned , of paying Tythes to the hireling Priest , of being married by the Priest , &c. and of marrying such as are out of Truth , yea , out of the Profession of it ; yea , and of all the Disorders that heady and unruly Persons are capable of committing against Church-Society , by raising and fomenting Strife and Contention amongst Brethren , by drawing and gathering into Parties , Sides and Factions , by making Schisms , Rents and Breaches , by running into down-right Division , and open Separation . All which are Evils , and such Evils as the Judgment of Truth always was , is and ought to be placed upon . But seeing the Adversaries hide themselves under the Terms [ Simply Evil , or Immoral ] let me ask them more particularly , Whether it be not an Immoral Act for any one to deprive Another , by force or fraud , of his just Right and Property ? They know what of this kind has been done by some of their own Party at Reading , and other Places , where they have forcibly kept Friends out of their publick Meeting-Houses , and deprived Friends of their just and lawful Right and Property in those Meeting-Houses , contrary to all Right and Justice . Now though Truth 's Judgment hath been placed , and doth stand and abide , upon this Evil , and upon the Authors and Abettors thereof ; And though , being so undeniable in fact , and so gross in nature , some of the Adversaries are ashamed , or afraid to plead for it : Yet which of them all has joyned with Friends in placing the Judgment of Truth upon it , and upon them that are more immediatly guilty of it ? Nay , do they not rather own and joyn with such as have been and are most guilty in this case , and receive such of them as are Preachers , to preach and pray amongst them ? In their 5th page , they take a slight notice of the latter part of the Author's Answer , where he said , But if thou pleadest thy Freedom against such things , yea , Obstructest and Slightest such Good , Wholsom and Requisit Things ( namely such things as are Holy , Just , Lovely , Honest , Comely and of good Report , as he had mentioned just before ) thy freedom is naught , dark , perverse , out of the Truth , and against the perfect Law of Love and Liberty . In the reciting of which , I observe , they slip over these words [ obstructest and slightest ] as being Conscious perhaps that they have done so , and have no colourable defence to make for their so doing . Their Answer to the rest is this , This is still to the same Tune ; here is a Iudge implied , but not set forth ; 't is not ( say they ) the Spirit of Truth , but some outward thing , whatever it is ; and they add , We know not where he will fix , &c. Rep. To the same Tune ! They were in a jolly Humour sure , when they borrowed this Phrase from the Ballad-mongers . So pag. 17. they say , Shall we Pipe to the same Tune for Company . Truth would have taught them more Gravity : and it is to be hoped their beguiled Proselites will observe and take notice what a frothy Spirit they are guided by . But though they say , The Judge is not set forth , but only implied ; and by the●● saying [ Whatever it is ] they imply they know not what it is ; nay , they confess in plain Terms ; they know not where he will fix : yet , in this tuning strain they as boldly as blindly ( that is confessedly not seeing , or knowing what it is ) adventure to affirm , 'T is not the Spirit of Truth . By which the Children of Truth know , that the Adversaries , in this Judgment , are out of Truth . In the same airy Vein they go on thus , But since we know not where he will fix , to say no more , 't is dark to be sure ; Then ( as if , on a sudden , they would grow very kind ) to help it all we can , say they , we shall thus far grant , there are some Outward things so far Essential to true Religion , as those that do contrary to them may be detected of Error . Rep. If it was dark before , how much clearer is it now ? For they mention not a Syllable what these outward Essentials are . They complain of want of Certainty in the Book they pretend to answer : yet themselves leave it wholly uncertain what they mean by these outward Essentials . They suggest here , that in that Book things are laid down in a general way , in which ( they say ) Deceit or Cunning often lurks . Yet sure , nothing could be laid down in more general terms , than they have here mentioned their outward Essentials ; for what to lurk under , let themselves Consider , others judge . But they say , The things suggested as the Ground of Difference , are neither such Principles nor Practices as have been from our beginning , nor yet such things as can be truly said to be Essential to true Religion . Rep. I will not here Descant on their beginning , though the conceitedness of the Expression would even invite to it . But I would know what things those are , that they say are suggested , as the Ground of Difference , and by whom they are so suggested . Are not these Generals designed for a shelter for something to lurk under ? But suppose for the present , that the things they suggest , are suggested as the Ground of Difference , are neither such Principles nor Practices as have been from their beginning ; what then ? Is their Beginning the Boundary ? the Nil ultra ? Was there a Bar then set , a limitation to the illimitable Holy One , that Nothing , not then in Practice , should thereafter be ever brought into Practice , for the Service of the Church of Christ ? But say the Adversaries ( and they bid us Observe it ) If the things suggested as the Ground of Difference , are not Essential things ▪ nor yet such things as have been from our beginning , then they can at best be but Circumstantial , or if you will , Ceremonial or Shadowy Things , and such things at best are but accidentaly good , that is ( say they ) as Persons are perswaded of them , and what is but accidentally good , may on the contrary be accidentally not good , and that is ( say they ) as Persons are dissatisfied with them . Rep. 'T is fit we should ( as they desire ) observe this : For I think there are many things observable in it . First , when they say , If the things suggested , &c. are not Essential things , not yet such things as have been from our beginning , they can at best be but Circumstantial ; They plainly imply , that if those things had been from their beginning , they might have been more than Circumstantial , although they had not been Essential things . An Absurdity that , at best , must needs spring from conceited Ignorance . Secondly , By making the terms Circumstantial , or Ceremonial and Shadowy , Synonomous , or of the same signification , They render all outward Performances of Gospel-worship , contrary to the nature of it , Shadowy ; since no outward Act of Worship ever was , or ever can be performed without Circumstance . If the other Passage shewed their Ignorance , this , I think , will not commend their knowledge , at least , in divine matters . Thirdly , their saying such things are at best but accidentally good , savours of no good understanding or sense . But Fourthly , In making such things accidentally Good , or not Good , according as Persons are perswaded of them , or dissatisfied with them , they have exceeded common Weakness ; and to speak favourably , draw too near to the borders of Ranterism . For it was the grand Notion of the Ranters , and the source of their immodest and unclean Practices , that things were no otherwise Good or Evil , than as Persons apprehended or thought them to be so : Only they extended it more generally : These seem to restrain it to such things as they call Circumstantial or Ceremonial , which yet they confound with Shadowy . But let me ask these Adversaries , Do ye think or hold , that this was always so ; or only so now of late , since your Beginning ( as ye speak ) that is , were all Circumstantial things , or ( according to your notion ) Shadowy things , always , in all times , and places , good , or not good , according as Persons were perswaded of them , or dissatisfied with them ? Or are they so now of late only : There were many Circumstantial Things attendant on the Service of God under the Legal Dispensation and Shadowy Things , not a few . Were those things then good , or not good , according as Persons were perswaded of them , or dissatisfied with them ? Or would a Persons being dissatisfied with any of those things then , have freed him from the Obligation of them ? That had been a ready way indeed to have made void the Commandments of God. But even the Rebellious Iews , as bad as they were , never ( that I remember ) made such a Plea. Will ye rather chuse to say that , though it was not so then under the Law ; yet it is so now , under the Gospel ? But since ye have resolved Circumstantials into Shadowy things ; what will ye do with them under the Gospel ? Will ye assert shadowy things to be Good now , under the Gospel , if Persons are perswaded they are so ? Be perswaded to consider better of it first . At this rate , the same Act of Religious Worship may , at the same time , and in the same Assembly , be good to one , not good to another of the same Society , according as they differently esteem it . It will , on this ground , be as good for men to offer up publick Prayers to God with their Hats on , if they are so perswaded and satisfied , as to Pray with their Heads uncovered . For ye shall find , if ye look rightly into it , that this Notion of yours is but a fresh Sprout from the old Root of the Hat-Controversie in Iohn Perot's time . I have some cause , more perhaps than every one of you , to understand this Wile of the Enemy , having been in some degree beguiled by it then . In humble reverence of Soul , and with thankfulness of Mind , I pay this Acknowledgement to the God of my Deliverance , who was graciously pleased to shew me this Snare , and deliver me out of it . And in tender pity , I warn you of it . Another strange Notion the Adversaries have immediatly after these , in their 5th and 6th pages , where speaking of things which they say , They believe concern only the outward Court ; They add , Which God hath left unmeasured , on purpose that Christians might never differ about them . This they repeat in their 9th page , saying , We are sure that he hath left such things on purpose unmeasured , that men might agree . As if what God had measured , he had therefore measured that Christians might differ , that men might not agree . For their affirming that God hath left some things unmeasured , on purpose that Christians might never differ about them , implies ( by that way of contrary arguing which they so much use ) that God hath measured some things on purpose that Christian might differ about them . But as that were wicked to imagin : So I wish the discovery of so many absurd and false Notions as have here ( in a few Lines ) dropt from them , may awaken them and others , to consider what Spirit it is they are guided by . When they say , they believe , nay , are sure , God hath left such things ( as they except against ) unmeasured , on purpose that Men might agree , that Christians might never differ about them ; I take their meaning to be , that God hath therefore left such things free , that some may practice them , others not practice them , according as either sort like or dislike them , without taking offence at each other therefore . Now if this be their meaning , this is of force against themselves , to clear the things they except against from having Evil or harm in them : for if there were any Evil or harm in them , God would not leave any of his People at liberty to use them . And then all the Clamour and Out-cry , Division and Mischief the Adversaries have made , is against things which they cannot in Truth say have any Evil or harm in them . In their 10th page , the Adversaries take up another Question out of the forementioned Book , which in that was thus laid down . But must I conform to things whether I can receive them or no ? Ought I not to be left to the Grace and Spirit of God in my own Heart ? The Answer was , to the first part of the Question , Nay : to the last , Yea. This Answer they seem to like : for they say of it , This is fairly said we must confess . But as fairly as it was said , they unfairly alter it , in taking upon them to explain it ; for reciting the Author's Answer , viz. to the first part of the Question , Nay ; that is , say they , Thou ought not to receive things against Truth . Whereas the first part , nor any part of the Question was not , Ought I to receive things against Truth ? But it was , Must I conform to things whether I can receive them or no ? Betwixt which Answer , and their explanatory Gloss , there is no small difference , both in words and matter . For it is one thing , Not to conform to things , because I cannot receive them ( which may be , and yet the things be agreeable to Truth , and the fault in me only , that I am not in that which would lead me to receive them . ) And it is another thing , Not to receive things against Truth , which none ought to receive , and which it would be Evil in me to receive and conform to , if I could . But though in this they deal not fairly by the Author ; yet by his Answer it is evident , that none is put upon Conforming to any thing that they cannot receive : But all are left to the Grace and Spirit of God in their own hearts ( which is that that leads into the true Spiritual Liberty before defined ) though not to the freedom of their own unruly Wills , to oppose , obstruct , revile and vilifie those things , which they say They cannot receive , and them that have received and do practice them : muchless to rend , divide , separate from them , and yet break in upon them , and force upon them their Preaching and Praying , as if they were still of them , though apparent Enemies to them . But though they seem to approve his Answer at the first , yet they soon find fault with it again ; because they think there is not sufficient Provision made by him for withstanding the things , if the fault be in them . Repl. How may we suppose he could admit the fault to be in the things , which he prae-suppos'd to be good , wholsom , and requisit ? Or how can the fault be in the things , if God has left them , as the Adversaries say , unmeasured ; that is ( if I reach their meaning ) free for his People to practice , or not practice . He would not leave any thing for some of his People to practice , which others of his People could not practice from a fault in the thing it self . And although from the Author 's asking , Is the fault in the thing themselves ? They would gladly catch an advantage to infer , that It is fairly implied , if not granted , that the fault may lie on the side of the things brought in ; yet they fall short in that also : for Interrogatvies have sometimes the force of Negatives . The Apostle , when he said , Is there Vnrighteousness with God ? Rom. 9.14 . did not imply , muchless grant , that there might be Unrighteousness with God. But they add , that The fault doth lie in the things , for any thing he hath said to prove the contrary . Repl. It seems they expected a proof of Negatives . That were needless . 'T is enough that they have not proved a Fault in the things they reject and despise . When they attempt that a disproof thereof , I believe , will not be wanting . They say , We may conclude such as bring them in ( viz. the things they say are suggested as the ground of Difference ) are reputed Leaders . Repl. I say such as raised the Opposition at first , and made the Division thereby , and led into the Separation thereupon , were reputed , and were , Leaders among them . They add , p. 11. The Leaders may do more harm in bringing in things that are wrong , than others can do in Opposing some things that may in some sort be right . Repl. If this be true to any purpose , yet it is nothing to this purpose . The things they complain of for being brought in , they have never proved to be wrong , nor ever can ; therefore there has been no harm done , by bringing those things in , as their Phrase is . But the harm has been done by the heady and unruly Opposition they have made against those things that are right . They say , The Leaders have caused the People to err , and the effect was , that the People led by them was devoured . Repl. This is rightly applicable to themselves : The Children of Light ▪ in the Light , see it , and lament over them . Their Leaders have caused them to err , and by following them , they have been led into that Separation , which , unless by Repentance they quickly return from , will certainly destroy them . Again , they say , The way to prevent the danger is , by allowing freely Conviction and Perswasion to precede Conformity . Repl. This is an evil Suggestion , by which they would insinuate , that Friends did press Conformity before Conviction and Perswasion : which is utterly false , contrary to our Principle , and contrary to our Practice . That it is contrary to our Principle , the Book and place they here pretend to Answer , evinces : For there the Author , having put the Question , Must I conform to things whether I can receive them or no ? Answers directly and positively , Nay ; And even so they cite his words . In the same place also he says , Thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly ; yet thou art to consider , why thou art ignorant , and what the cause of such Ignorance may be . What can be plainer ! That it is contrary to our Practice also , is matter of Fact. Let the Adversaries therefore prove if they can , that Friends press Conformity before or without Conviction . They go on in their 11th page to quarrel with another expression of his , which is this , It is a dangerous Principle , and pernitious to true Religion , and which is worse , it is the Root of Ranterism to assert , that nothing is a Duty incumbent upon thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty . Against this they make a great noise . This , they cry out , is as removing a Bounder or Land-mark . 'T is , they say ; of the same nature with Conviction or Perswasion ; for if ( say they ) Conviction and Perswasion is to go before Conformity in our duty to God and true Religion , then nothing can be a duty incumbent upon us , but what we are perswaded on : But if duty to God and true Religion must be performed before convinced or perswaded to it , then something may be a duty incumbent upon us , that we know not , or are not perswaded on . Rep. Here they confound Duty with performance of Duty or Conformity to Duty ; which are different things , and ought to be distinguished : and their not distinguishing them has puzzled their heads . Performance follows Duty ; not Duty , Performance . Duty , in order of time , as well as in the nature of things , is before Performance , as the Cause is before the Effect . Now the Assertion here taxed for a dangerous Principle is not , that nothing can be performed as thy Duty , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty : But , that nothing is a Duty incumbent on thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty . Though it be true , that a man cannot rightly perform a thing as his Duty , which he is not perswaded is his Duty : yet it doth not thence follow , that it is not his Duty , because he is not perswaded it is his Duty . It is not simply want of perswasion or conviction , but want of sufficient means for perswasion or conviction , that can exempt any man from the obligation of Duty . The Iews , though they had sufficient means for conviction , or perswasion that it was their Duty to own and receive Christ for the promised Messiah , yet were not perswaded that that was their Duty ; was that therefore not a Duty incumbent upon them ? If I had not come , and spoken unto them , saith Christ , they had not had sin : But now they have no Cloak for their sin , Joh. 15.22 . Why so ? They were never the more perswaded of their Duty for his speaking to them . Well , but they had sufficient means to have been perswaded , had they not resisted it . We read of some of old , that of some things were willingly ignorant , 2 Pet. 3.5 . Of others , before them , that said unto God , Depart from us , for we desire not the knowledge of thy Ways , Job 21.14 . Unlikely were these to be perswaded of Duty . Was therefore no Duty incumbent on them ? This were a ready way indeed for men to discharge themselves of all Duty , if through negligent Carelesness , or wilful resisting , they harden themselves against Conviction . But as that is a dangerous state ; so this is a dangerous Doctrine : And the endeavours the Adversaries use to justifie and establish it , render their Bottom the more justly to be suspected . Now let us see what Mediums they use to maintain this Doctrine or Principle , that nothing is a Duty incumbent upon one , but what he is perswaded is his Duty ; If , say they , to assert or believe that nothing is a Duty incumbent upon us , but what we are perswaded on , be in its self a dangerous Principle , pernitious to true Religion , and what is still worse the Root of Ranterism , then the Saying that stands against this must be as Good as that is Evil ; that is , it must be a Safe Principle , propitious to true Religion ; and which is still better , it should be as the Root of all Good to men : for we conceive , the Root of Ranterism is as the root of all Evil. Repl. Here they run a Ground again , by tampering unskilfully with Logical Conclusions . To shew them their mistake , I refer them to 1 Tim. 6.10 . The Apostle there says expresly , The Love of Money is the Root of all Evil. Doth it therefore follow , or will they thence infer , that the Hatred of Money is the Root of all Good ? They say , The saying that stands against this , must be as Good as that is Evil. Now the Apostle having said , The Love of Money is the Root of all Evil ; the saying that ( according to their sense ) stands against this saying of the Apostle , is , that the Hatred of Money is the Root of all Good. But I think they are not so much out of love with Money , as to assert that . They run on , pag. 12. in the same false way of Reasoning , thus , If to assert that Nothing is a Duty incumbent on us , but what we are perswaded on , be the Root of Ranterism , &c. Then , to avoid this Shoal , we must believe that something is a Duty incumbent upon us , that we are not perswaded on ; and if we can thus believe , we must of necessity depend on him or others , to let us know what our Duty is . Rep. This is the thing the Adversaries drive at , to make their Proselites believe , that Friends endeavour to draw People from a dependence on the Gift and Manifestation of God in themselves , to depend on them for direction to , or information in their respective Duties . But this is utterly false , a wicked Slander and an evil Design to beget in such a Prejudice against Friends , that they may the more easily gain , the more strongly bind such to their Party . Nor is their way of Reasoning here fair or forcible . For supposing something is , or may be a Duty incumbent upon a Man , which he is not perswaded to be his Duty ; it doth not thence follow , that he must of necessity depend on some other Man , to let him know his Duty . This is no true Consequence . Though the Adversaries say , If we can thus believe , we must of necessity depend on him or some other , to let us know what our Duty is ; yet there is no such necessity ▪ The necessity such an one is under , is , to depend more truly on the Gift of God in himself , to attend more diligently and duly thereon , that so by and from that Manifestation of the Spirit , which God hath given unto him to profit withal , he may come to receive a right Sense , a true Understanding , a clear Discovery of the Mind and Will of God to him , with respect to that Duty or Thing , which hitherto , for want of such a due and diligent Attendance upon the heavenly Gift in himself , he has not had a clean sight of , a full satisfaction in , but has been in the dark and doubting concerning it . So that the supposing a Possibility for something to be a Duty incumbent upon a man , which he is not perswaded is his Duty , hath no tendency to draw him from a dependence upon the Gift of God in himself ▪ for a discovery thereof ▪ but rather to drive him some to it , to excite him to a more close and diligent attendance thereunto , that he may thereby come to see and know what yet he doth not . For , if the Adversaries do , yet none else , I think , will think that every man doth , at all times , so watchfully attend upon the Gift of God in himself , that he doth not at any time miss , or fall short of knowing the mind of God thereby . He , to be sure , thought otherwise , who said , God speaketh once , yea , twice , yet man perceiveth it not , Job 33.14 . Now this Slanderous Suggestion of the Adversaries , is the more vile and wicked in them , in as much as they know it to be a Slander ; and that very Book , which they pretend to Answer , doth plainly prove it so ▪ For in the 10th page of that Book ( called , A brief Examination and State of Liberty Spiritual ) to the Question , But if I do not presently see that Service in a thing , that the rest of my Brethren agree in , in this case what is my Duty ? The Answer is , It is thy Duty to wait upon God in silence and patience , out of all fleshly Consultations ; and as thou abidest in the Simplicity of the Truth , thou wilt receive an Vnderstanding with the rest of thy Brethren , about the thing doubted . Is this to draw from the Gift of God in ones self , to depend upon others for Guidance ? Yet the Adversaries say , pag. 12. This ( to wit , that something may be a Duty incumbent upon one , though he be not perswaded it is his Duty ) is to impeach the Grace of God , and Spirit of Truth , to whose sufficiency so many Testimonies have been born , as not now sufficient to lead all into all Truth . Rep. No such matter . They had no cause to suggest this ; no ground for it . The Book they pretend to Answer denys it positively ; for asking where the fault is , it says , pag. 3. Is it thy weakness , or thy Carelesness or If thy weakness , it is to be born with , and to be informed ▪ If thy carelesness , thou oughtest to be admonished . And a little lower in the same page it follows thus , So that though thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly , yet thou art seriously to consider , why thou art ignorant , and what the Cause of such Ignorance may be ; Certainly it can't be in God , nor in his Gift to thee [ mark that ] it must then needs be in thy self ▪ &c. This is plain enough ; and this they could not choose but see , picking up matter just before and after it ; which shews they had a design to abuse Friends , and that makes their guilt the greater . Yet thus they go on , adding Falshood to Falshood . For in their same page they say , The Consequence of his arguing is to make us believe , that somthing is a Duty incumbent upon us that we do not know , and yet at the same time doth not let us know on whom we may depend . Whereas ( as I have cited before ) he said expresly , pag. 10. It is , thy Duty to wait upon God , in silence and patience , &c. So that he did let them know on whom they were to depend , namely upon God. Again , they insinuate as if their not understanding their Duty , were placed upon their Inability . Whenas they know , it is laid upon Carelesness , Disobedience , Prejudice , &c. But this they do , on purpose to render Friends odious to their separate Party , as if we held that somthing may be a Duty incumbent upon one , which he cannot know , which he is in no capacity of being perswaded of ; whereas indeed we hold no such thing . For what is impossible for a man to know , to understand , or be perswaded of , cannot be said to be a Duty incumbent on him . But what he may know , what he hath sufficient means to understand , what he is put into a Capacity to be convinced and perswaded of , by the Gift and Manifestation of the Spirit , which God hath given him for that end , may be a Duty incumbent on him , although he , through his Carelesness , Negligence , Non-attendance on the Gift , or prejudice against the thing , hath not received a certain Knowledge , Understanding , Conviction or Perswasion that it is his Duty . Had the Adversaries taken the matter plainly and fairly , as it was laid down in the Book they pretend to Answer . They had not thus run beside the line . But their manner is ( as is obvious to an observing Reader ) when they have pickt out a Sentence which they intend to oppose , to turn it this way and that way , to shift it to and fro , to alter the form of it , till they have varied it from the Author's Terms and Sense , and fitted it to their own turn and service , and then triumph over it . Thus ( besides other Instances ) they have done in this particular case . The sentence , as they first quarrelled with it , was this ; It is a dangerous Principle , and pernitious to true Religion , and which is worse , it is the Root of Ranterism to assert , That nothing is a Duty incumbent upon thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty . No sooner had they drawn this forth , but in their first modelling of it , they slip in the words Conformity and Performance ; whereas Duty is one thing , Performance of it another , as I have noted before . Then in the next place , they frame up another Sentence , in terms ( as they apprehend ) directly opposit to this , and argue from one to t'other , till at length they have slipt it quite beside its first and right bottom , and set it upon a bottom of their own , an Inability to understand ; Whereas the sentence is not , that it is a dangerous Principle to assert that nothing is a Duty incumbent on thee , but what thou art in a Capacity , or hast means to understand or be perswaded of ( for there were no danger in asserting that ) But , it s a dangerous Principle , &c. to assert , that nothing is a Duty incumbent on thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty . There is some odds , sure , betwixt thou art perswaded , and thou mayst be perswaded , or thou art in a Capacity , or thou hast means of being perswaded . Yet the Adversaries , confounding these Terms , run on to the same effect . For , taking offence at the mentioning of seared , dark , dead Consciences , in the Book they pretend to answer ( which the Author there mentioned , to set forth the dangerousness of asserting as a Principle , that nothing is a Duty incumbent on thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty : for , said he , The seared Conscience pleads his Liberty against all Duty , the dark Conscience is here unconcerned , the dead Conscience is here uncondemned , &c. ) They say , p. 13. There is a vast difference betwixt denying all Duty to God , and believing nothing a Duty but what we are perswaded on . The first , say they , deny all duty ; the latter owns all Duty that can be known . Repl. This is a high and bold , but not a safe expression . To own all Duty that can be known , is not an ordinary state . But let us see who this first is , that denys all Duty , and who the latter . The first , that which pleads Liberty against all Duty , is expresly term'd the seared Conscience , in the Book & place the Adversaries pretend to Answer . The dark Conscience , and the dead Conscience , are not there charg'd with that , with pleading Liberty against all Duty , or denying all Duty . How then know the Adversaries but the dark Conscience may find a place among the Latter , among those that believe nothing a Duty , but what they are perswaded of ? And how then will it hold that the Latter , they that believe nothing a Duty but what they are perswaded of , do indeed own all Duty , that can be known ? Will the Adversaries , upon second thoughts , advisedly and consideratly assert , that All they who believe nothing a Duty but what they are perswaded of , do really own all Duty that can be known ? I don't think they will. Nay I find they begin already to flag from it , within two lines : for they immediatly subjoyn thus , The first denying all Duty is Evil ; but the Latter , as they own all Duty that they know , so , &c. Here it is not ( as above ) all Duty that can be known ; but all Duty that they know . If they own all Duty that they know ; 't is well : But there is some odds sure , betwixt owning all Duty that they know , and owning all Duty that can be known . But so little constant to themselves , so little consistent with thenselves , are the Adversaries , so loose and regardless of the terms they write in , that Do know , and Can know ; Are known , and Can be known , seems to be alike with them . They add , As the Latter own all Duty that they know , so may they wait truly to know what God is pleased further to shew . Rep. I grant they may so ; I wish they would so ; and it is that which All are exhorted to . But if they do not so , what then ? What may be , may not be . And I suppose the Adversaries will grant , that as they may , so it is not impossible but that they may not wait so truly , as to know what God is pleased further to shew . And then , if by reason of their not waiting , or not waiting so truly and rightly as to know what God is pleased further to shew , they fall short of , miss and deprive themselves of the knowledge of what God is pleased further to shew , or what God requires as a Duty of them ; will their falling short through their own default , and missing the knowledge thereof , make it not to be a Duty to them ? There were indeed times of Ignorance , the Apostle saith , at which God winked ; But now he hath commanded All men every where to Repent , Acts 17.30 . Why now ? Because now the Gospel Light , the discovering Light , the universal Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world , is arisen and broken forth ; by the inshinings whereof every one is put into a Capacity to know and understand what God requires of him . After all this , in pag. 14. They tell us , They believe where the Gift of God is received to profit withal , and truly adhered to , nothing is a Duty incumbent upon such , but what they are perswaded on . Rep. Here now they have given it another stretch . What was spoken with direct relation to a state of Carelesness , Disobedience , Prejudice , &c. or a seared , dark , or dead Conscience , they apply to such as have received the Gift of God to profit withal , and truly adhered thereto ; and make their Inference from that misapplication . What they speak , pag. 13. concerning Circumstantial things being called requisit things , on the score that we could not ( as they say ) know dead , dark and seared Consciences without them ; hath nothing in it but an unsavoury Scoff , fit to discover what frothy Spirit it came from . But when they ask , in the same flouting manner , if those Requisit things that keep out or make known those dead , dark and seared Consciences , &c. can keep out Hypocrites : I must tell them , that is in one sense a difficult matter . For truly , I think , there can hardly be a grosser sort of Hypocrites found , than those that having publickly printed Friends to the world to be Apostates , Innovators , Introducers of Popery , Idolaters , setters up of Idols , with much more of that kind , and having upon that score ( as they pretend ) separated from us , and set up separate Meetings of their own , will and no yet come , whether we will or no , into our Meetings , in shew and pretence of joyning with us in Worship , and impose upon us to hear them Preach and Pray among us , and require to be received and owned by us therein , after they have so publickly disowned us , and departed from us . But though such Hypocrites will not keep out , but will thrust in , yet they cannot keep themselves from being discovered , but are known to be what they are . In their 15th page , they carp at an Expression , taken out of the 9th page of that Book which they pretend to Answer . It is this , A Saying may be true or false , according to the Subject Matters it is spoken upon , or applied to . They say , We believe he has missed the Truth there . And repeating it , pag. 44. they say , That we believe is a mistake ; for we think Truth 's Testimonies are not false , because some may misapply them . Rep. The Author's words are not , that Truth 's Testimonies may be true or false , &c. But , that a Saying may be true or false , &c. Now we know every Saying is not Truth 's Testimony . And yet , even that which is a true Testimony when spoken of or applied to a right Subject , may not be a true Testimony , when spoken of or applied to a wrong Subject . When the Apostle said , I have fought a good Fight , I have kept the Faith , &c. Henceforth is laid up for me a Crown , &c. 2. Tim. 4.7 , 8. This was a true Testimony , as spoken of or applied to him . But this same saying , if applied to or spoken of Iudas , Demas , or any other Apostate or wicked Person , would not have been true , but false . But though they Cavil at this saying from him , yet they could be content the same fort of Expression should pass for Truth from them , when they thought to serve their own turn by it . For in their 4th pag. blaming his Answer to that Question , which he said was true in a sense , they say it is so far true , that if it can be wrong at all , 't is only in a sense , and that is only when misapplied . Misapplying then it seems , can make a Right saying Wrong , when they hope to get some advantage by it , else not . Doth not this shew both great Partiality , and a captious mind ? So also , they wrangle much about that Expression , The Root of Ranterism ; Whereas they might easily have seen it to be a Metaphorical or Figurative Speech , to shew that that Assertion was a Radical or Fundamental Principle or Doctrine of the Ranters , from which ( as Fibres from a Root ) other erroneous Tenets did sprout forth and grow up . But this shews their propensity to Contention and Quarrelling . Now that it may most evidently appear , that all this Out-cry against the Author , and Clamour against this Passage in his Book , as tending to bring in blind Obedience , and draw from a Dependance upon God , to a Dependance upon Man , for discovery of Duty , &c. is without ground , and that his Book hath not given them any colourable Occasion for it ; but that they have wickedly perverted , and wrested both his words and meaning in that Passage : I desire the Reader more particularly to observe that Passage , and consider the Occasion , scope and drift of it . For the Occasion , it is manifest it was written with direct relation to the Careless state , to those who , through Heedlesness and Inadvertency , neglect and disregard the divine Gift in themselves ; and so , for want of attending thereunto , are ignorant of its motions , and what the Lord by it requires of them . For having put this Question , But must I conform to things whether I can receive them or no ? and answered directly and flatly , Nay ( which positively excludes blind Obediences : ) the Author thereupon puts the Questionist to consider what the Reason is that he cannot receive them , that so he may find where the Fault lies , whether in himself , or elsewhere . Therefore he subjoyns , Is the fault in the things themselves ? Are they inconsistent with Truth , or will not the Truth own or assent unto them ? As much as to say , If thou canst make appear that thou canst not receive them , because the things themselves are faulty , as being inconsistent with Truth , then thou wilt appear clear in not receiving them . But if thou canst not rightly lay the fault upon the things themselves , then consider whether the fault is not in thee , that is to say , Is it thy Weakness , or thy Carelesness ? If thy weakness , it is to be born with , and to be informed ; if thy Carelesness , thou oughtest to be admonished : for though thou mightest have acquitted thy self , if thou couldest justly have laid the fault upon the things themselves , as inconsistent with Truth ; yet thou canst not clear or acquit thy self by laying the fault upon thy Ignorance , if thy Ignorance proceed from , or be occasioned by thy own Carelesness . And because some have entrench't themselves in their own Ignorance , and thought themselves secure from Obligation to Duty , under a Plea of want of sight ; therefore to excite such to a closer Inquiry , to a stricter Search , to a more diligent waiting upon the Lord , for a clear discovery and sight of his will , the Author there adds , that It is a dangerous Principle , and pernitious to true Religion , and which is worse , it is the Root of Ranterism to assert , that nothing is a Duty incumbent upon thee , but what thou art perswaded is thy Duty . And to evince the dangerousness of this Assertion , and shew in particulars the Perniciousness of this Principle , He adds , For the seared Conscience pleads his Liberty against all Duty , the dark Conscience is here unconcern'd , ( reckons its Darkness , its Ignorance , it was want of sight and Conviction , a sufficiet defence and excuse , and so concerns it self no further ) the dead Conscience is here uncondemned , unless this Distinction be allow'd of , that there may be an Ignorance or an Insensibility from Inability or Incapacity , or a dark Education ( which he comprehended before under the word Weakness ) and an Ignorance and Insensibility from Carelesness , Disobedience , Prejudice , &c. Hence it is most apparent that this Passage related to the careless , disobedient , dark Ones , who make darkness their refuge , want of sight there shelter . To such it is said , by way of Reproof and Admonition , It is a dangerous Principle , &c. to assert , that nothing is a Duty incumbent upon thee ( thou careless , disobedient , prejudiced , dark One ) but what thou ( who , by thy own Carelesness , Disobedience or Prejudice , hast brought Darkness upon thy self ) art perswaded is thy Duty . Now this being the plain and clear import of the place , it is not without violence and great Injustice that the Adversaries have strained , and applied this so such as have received the Gift of God to profit withal , and have truly adhered thereunto . Then , as to their Suggestion that the Author's drift , and the tendency of his Discourse , was to lead into blind Obedience , and from a dependence on God , it is utterly groundless . His own words prove the contrary , not only ( as I noted before ) in saying positively Nay to the Question , Must I conform to things whether I can receive them or no ? But also , when in the same page , and on the same subject , he says expresly afterwards , Thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly . This fully shuts out blind Obedience . And so far was he from drawing to a Dependence on Man , for sight or understanding in point of Duty , that he expresly says , pag. 9. The People of God ought to be left to the Guidings of the Spirit of God in themselves . And pag. 10. It is thy Duty to wait upon God in silence and patience , out of all fleshly Consultations , and as thou abidest in the simplicity of the Truth , thou wilt receive an understanding with the rest of thy Brethren about the things doubted . These are Evidences plain enough : Yet because the Testimony of an Enemy is accounted of great force , and unexceptionable , take here , for an over-plus , the Adversaries own Confession in the case , p. 16. where , of the Author of that Book they are so offended at ; they say , That he desires all should be guided by God's Spirit , we believe . Now , if they believe this of him , what , Reader , may we believe of them , who have raised all this Noise and Clamour against him , charging him that he would bring in blind Obedience , frighten into blind Obedience , and lead to a dependence on himself or some others ; and yet now , after all this , confess they believe , He desires all should be guided by God's Spirit ! But notwithstanding they say they believe thus of him , they presently blames him again , p. ●6 . for limiting it ( as they say ) to that one way , with respect ( as they apprehend ) to Shadowy or Circumstantial things , &c. Reply . Here again , and frequently in their following Discourse , they run into their former Error , confounding Shadowy with Ceremonial and Circumstantial things , as if they were all alike , and had all but one and the same signification ; thereby rendring ( in their sense ) all Circumstantial things Shadowy things : which to be a great mistake , and such an one as would make all outward Acts of Gospel-Worship , contrary to the Nature of the Gospel , shadowy , I have shewed before . Yet upon this Shadowy Notion of theirs , they take upon them with Confidence to pass Judgment upon him , that Though he may have received a measure of God's Spirit , yet in plain he is not truly born of it . And this , methinks , is pretty briskly done for such , whose common Theam and Cry was wont to be , Iudge not . Next whereas the Author of that Book they Cavil at in Answer to that part of the Question which was , Ought I not to be left to the Grace and Spirit of God in my own Heart ? had answered Yea ; That is of all things most desirable , since they are well left that are there left ; for there is no fear of want of Vnity , where all are left with the one Spirit of Truth ; They must be of one mind , they cannot be otherwise : To this the Adversaries say , That those that are truly left with the one Spirit of Truth , must and will agree , we grant ; and therefore , where difference is carried on to the breach of Charity , one side at least , must be wrong , but which , ought in God's fear to be inquired , the greater Number cannot determin it . Rep. Here they grant that those that are truly left with the one Spirit , must and will agree , and yet at the same time suppose they will differ ; and which is more , that they may differ , and yet neither side be wrong , if the difference be not carried on to the breach of Charity . How they will reconcile these their different Notions , I know not ▪ But since they yield that one side at least must be wrong , where difference is carried on to the breath of Charity ▪ Let the Difference between them and Friends be looked into , and inquiry made , in God's fear , on which side the Breach of Charity began , that it may thence appear ( according to their own Proposition ) which side is wrong . And in this Disquisition , we will not expect any advantage from being the greater Number ; though they may give us ▪ leave to put them in mind , that when and where an Argument from the greatest Number , with respect to particular Places , seemed to lie on their side , they have not failed to urge it . Now in order to a right understanding , how Charity came to be broken in the carrying on of this Difference , it should be remembred , that when some things were recommended to the Churches , relating to Christian Discipline , in order to prevent such disorderly and scandalous Practices , as under an abuse of our Principle of true Christian Liberty , a Spirit of Looseness and Libertinism was introducing , some shewed themselves dissatisfied therewith , and unwilling to admit the use thereof , pretending that they did not see the service of the things recommended . Though this Plea was seen to proceed from weakness in some , and want of a true watchfulness unto , and waiting upon the heavenly Gift in themselves , which would have given them a true sight and sense , as it did their Brethren , both of the want , and of the usefulness of the things recommended : yet while they kept quiet , out of Contention and open Opposition , Friends tenderly bore with them , and carried themselves Brotherly towards them , endeavouring in the love of God , as occasion offered , to open and inform their Minds in the things , concerning which they profest to doubt . But long it was not ere they , abusing the tenderness of Friends towards them , grew high and heady , contentions and quarrelsome ▪ endeavouring publickly , and labouring much in private to gather into a Faction , and make a Party . Which when they had in some measure effected ( having , by evil Surmises and false Reports , betrayed and misled many young Convinced Ones , and some that were but weak in Judgment , as well as picked up others that went discontented , whose 〈◊〉 Spirits and disorderly Conversations had ●●●●●red them of the esteem they coveted amongst Friends ) they then appeared more openly to oppose , revile and vilifie those things , which before they pretended to the doubtful of , and not to see a need of or service for , calling them in Contempt and Derision , Men's Orders , human Edict , Canons , Constitutions , Prescriptions , Papists Impositions , Innovations , Bulls , &c. not sparing any reproachful Term , which they thought might beget , or increase , in their Proselited Party , a dislike of the things recommended , and a dis-esteem of Friends . This their unruly and turbulent behaviour , gave occasion to Friends to reprove them , and exhort them to study to be quiet , and have regard to the Churches peace . And surely had they indeed had any regard to the love of their Brethren , to the peace of the Churches of Christ , to the Reputation of Truth in the world , or to the honour of that holy Name of the Lord , by which we are called , they would never have begun , much less have carried on a Difference , 〈◊〉 so high a Breach of Charity , as they have done and that about such things as some of themselves have declared to be ( in their esteem ) but trifles , small things , of little or no 〈◊〉 . But notwithstanding the Endeavours , the Labours and Travels that were used by Friends to have reduced them to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; they grew still higher and higher in their Opposition and 〈◊〉 Carriage , till at length they made not only a Breach of Charity , but of Meetings also , ●ending off from Friends , and setting up separate Meetings of their own , for themselves and their Party to meet apart in , in separation from , and opposition to the constant settled Meetings of Friends , not only with respect to the outward Affairs and Business of the Church , but even with respect to publick Worship too : And in several printed Books and Papers ( written by some , and industriously spread by others of them ) published the difference to the world , exposing Friends ( as much as in them lay ) to the Contempt and scorn of the Prophane , as Apostates , Innovators , Idolaters ; setters up of Images , Idol-Prophets , possessed with the Spirit of Belial , and the like ; and not only to the Government , but even to the Rabble also , as a treacherous Company , Introducers of Popery , and but one step from it , &c. and that in a juncture of time , when the then present discovery of the Popish Plot had exasperated the Nation against all that were but suspected to favour that Communion . That this is the true state of the Case ( though but briefly set forth ) I appeal to all Friends that understand it , and hereupon leave it to all such to judge , in the fear of God , whether the Adversaries be not they that have made this Difference , and carried it on to the Breach of Charity ; and are therefore , according to their own Conclusion , WRONG . The Adversaries having granted in their 16th page , that those that are truly left with the one Spirit of Truth , must and will agree ; they in the same page add , But that there must be an Identity of Opinion , as ( say they ) we think the School-men call it , that is a Sameness of Mind , and Oneness of Iudgment to Circumstantial , Ceremonial , or Shadowy things , is sooner said than proved , and savours more of Curiosity , than any real Necessity . Rep. It may perhaps be thought to savour more of Curiosity , or something else , as Vain-glory , Self-conceit , or a fond Affectation of being thought to have converst with School-men , than of any real necessity , or common Discretion , for them to tell us what the School-men call Sameness of mind , especially unless they could have done it upon better assurance than an [ as we think . ] They had better have kept in the School of Christ , where they might have learnt Sameness of mind , and Oneness of Iudgment with God's People in the things of God , than have puzzled their brains about Identity of Opinion , and made themselves ridiculous by Cracking of their Converse with School-men . But leaving them to their thoughts , and the School-men to themselves , they might have learnt from the Author of the Book they are so angry with , if it had pleased them to have taken notice of it , that there is a difference between Sameness of mind , and Contrariness of mind ; between Oneness of Judgment , and Opposition of Judgments . But if I may tell them so , without offending them too much , the word Opinion ( with respect to Religious matters ) is fitter for the School-men , th●n for any that would be taken for a Quaker . Nor is it aptly or properly expounded by the word Iudgment : For Iudgment implies Certainty , and should be Positive ; whereas Opinion is but Suppositive , importing uncertain or doubtful Thought . They complain , pag. 16. that the Author of the Book they would Answer , hath not made a difference between Circumstantial things , and such as are truly Essential . Yet they themselves have not yet told us what things they account truly Essential . They said indeed once , pag. 5 There are some Outward things so far Essential to true Religion , as those that do contrary to them may be detected of Error . But they have not particularlized what those outward things are , nor whether they intend them for absolute Essentials . But they are in the dark , and in Confusion , and no wonder , having kickt against the Light , and that wholsome Order which the Children of the Light have in the Light received . They say , Though all that fear God must and will agree in things truly Essential , yet there is no necessity that they must agree in Circumstantial things . Rep. This seems to me as if they should say , All must agree in things Essential ; but they may differ , disagree , wrangle , jangle , contend and fall to pieces as much as they will about Circumstantial things ; There is no necessity that they must agree in them . Strange ! But whence should this Liberty of disagreeing proceed ? Are not all to be led by the One Spirit of Truth into all Truth , into Circumstantials , as well as into Essentials ? Or will the Adversaries say , that in Essentials indeed the Spirits Guidance is to be expected ; but for Circumstantials , every one may choose for himself , and please his own humour ? If they will grant ( which methinks they should scarce care to deny ) that into Circumstantial things all ought to expect , and may receive the Spirits guidance and leading , as well as into those things which they call Essential , will they then find any room for the Disagreement they contend for ? Can any one of a sound mind think , that the one holy Spirit of Truth will lead his Followers to contradict one another in Practice , any more than to contradict one another in Words ? If all are led by the Holy Spirit , he will undoubtedly lead them to agree , not to disagree , in whatsoever he leads into . Of the Primitive Christians it is written , The Multitude of them that believed were of one Heart , and of one Soul , Acts 4.32 . Was it only in such things as are accounted Essential ? Or was it in all things then relating to Religion amongst them , even in those things that were rather Circumstantial than Essential ? It may seem to be spoken more immediatly of those things : for it follows in the Text , Neither said any of them , that ought of the things which he possessed was his own ; but they had all things Common . Yet none , I suppose , will affirm that the Community they had of Goods and outward Substance was Essential to Religion : for then they that hold not that Community of Goods , would want an Essential part of Religion . In their 17th page , having surmised before , that some Circumstantial things have been over-valued they say , On the other hand , some , seeing this as a certain wrong , the Enemy hath aggravated the matter to make both wrong , &c. Here they seem willing to own themselves faulty , provided they may fix some fault too upon those they design to asperss ; But they may be supposed to understand their own Guilt , better than anothers . If they are truly sensible that the Enemy hath made them wrong , let them return to that which can make them Right . They add , It is our danger , and will continue until the Spirit of the Son of God be more plentifully poured forth upon us that can say , Father forgive them , they know not what they do : This ( say they ) is that which we want , and should truly wait for , that the great Deceiver , the Occasion of all Strife and Trouble among such as fear God , might be cast out , &c. Rep. That saying , Father forgive them , they know not what they do , if it be spoken according to Truth , and in the Spirit of the Son , can be spoken only of such as know not what they do . The Iews , of whom the Son of God so spake , Luke 23.34 . knew not what they did in Crucifying him that came to save them . Paul bears them that witness , 1 Cor. 2.8 . Now it is one thing , not to be able to say of Opposers , Father forgive them , they know not what they do , from a belief or perswasion that they do know what they do : And another thing , not to be able to say of Opposers , Father forgive them , they know not what they do , from a want of the Spirit of the Son , which alone can inable in Truth to say so , though there be a perswasion that the Opposers do not know what they do . Now this , it seems , is the state of the Adversaries ; the want of the Spirit of the Son of God , plentifully poured forth upon them , that can say ( of such as oppose them ) Father forgive them , they know not what they do . This ( say they ) is that which we want , and should truly wait for , that the great Deceiver might be cast out , &c. That this relates to themselves , appears by the Advertisement which they give at the end of their Preface , where they say , the word [ We ] may be understood in respect to those of the same mind with the Author of their Book . Their want of this , shews their Condition to be bad ; their not truly waiting for it , shews it to be worse . And since they acknowledge , the great Deceiver , the Occasion of all Strife and Trouble among such as fear God , is not yet cast out , it is no wonder that he hath thus long deceived them , and yet doth deceive them , out of whom he is not yet cast , and through them occasions so much strife and trouble to those that truly fear God , But , as if they had already forgot what they have here acknowledged , they in the next page say , As we can truly say , Father forgive them , they know not what they do , we are not without hope . But they deceive themselves , if they think they can truly say that , while they want the pouring forth of the Spirit of the Son of God upon them , in and by which alone that can be truly said . But , blessed be God , Friends ( whom these Adversaries oppose ) have received the pourings forth of the Spirit of the Son of God so plentifully , as that they can therein say of many , whom the great Deceiver hath , through the Adversaries , deceived , and by Deceit drawn into the Separation with them , Father forgive them , they know not what they do . But though they here acknowledge the great Deceiver is not cast out , yet they say they hope his casting out is near : for ( say they ) there seems but one grand Remove to know the Mystery of Iniquity finished ; and that is ( say they ) to know our habitation in God , who we have professed hath appeared in us by his Light and Spirit . Rep. It seems then they do not know their Habitation to be in God now . But if they know not their Habitation in God , in what do they know their Habitation to be ? Or do they not know where , or in what their Habitation is ? Oh uncertain and sad estate ! Our Saviour Christ said , Ioh. 65.6 . He that eateth my Flesh and drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him . If the Adversaries object that this is an high state , let them know , that all short of this is too low , the same Mouth having expresly said , vers . 53. Verily , verily , I say unto you , except ye eat the Flesh of the Son of man , and drink his Blood ; ye have no Life in you . The beloved Disciple said , God is Love , and he that dwelleth in Love , dwelleth in God , 1 John 4.16 . Again , He that keepeth his Commandments , dwelleth in him , chap. 3.24 . And hereby , says the same Apostle , know we that we dwell in him , and he in us , because he hath given us of his Spirit , chap. 4.13 . The Apostle Paul dedicated two Epistles to the Church of the Thessalonians , which is in God the Father , and in the Lord Iesus Christ. By all which it appears , that it is the proper state of God's People to have their Habitation in God , and that God's People then had , and did know their Habitation in him . And surely , I cannot but in Charity believe , that some of those that are in the Separation , have formerly known in some measure , an Habitation in God also . But not keeping in the true Love , but going out of that into the Enmity ; not keeping his Commandments , but rejecting , opposing , scorning , slighting , despising , reviling and vilifying them , and instead of Teaching others to keep them , discouraging and diswading others from keeping them , have ( like the Angels which kept not their first Estate , or Principality , Iude 6. ) left their Habitation in God ; and now , by their own Acknowledgement , do not know their Habitation in him , who they have professed hath appeared in them by his Light and Spirit ; but must have one grand Remove more , before they can come to know their Habitation in God again . O that all the Beguiled ones among them would weigh this well , and see and consider what their Separation hath brought them to , even to be destitute of an Habitation in God! Nay , if according to what they deliver in their 7th page , As man must be made a new Creature , before he can come into Christ , so must he travel through the whole Mystery of iniquity ; In the last step of which travel , they say , the Mystery is finished : then , since with them the Mystery of Iniquity is not yet finished , but there is one grand Remove yet behind to know the Mystery of Iniquity finished ) they are not , it seems , yet come in to Christ. In their 17th page they say , To make lesser things than Essential things Terms of Communion , we have observed to be a great Evil in others , and shall we cry it up as good in our selves ? And in pag. 18. They speak of making Nothing Terms of Communion but Essential things . And something to like purpose they toucht before , p. 6. Rep. This is , first , an evil Insinuation , to prejudice Peoples minds against Friends , as if Friends did set up this , that , or t'other thing , as Terms of Communion with us . Secondly , it is a plain Indication , that the Adversaries do not truly and rightly understand the Saints Communion , and the terms thereof . Amongst other Religious Societies , as the Communions are outward and visible , so the Terms of such Communions consist only in outward and visible things ; as an outward verbal acknowledgement of Creeds , Doctrines , &c. and an outward or actual Observance or Performance of such things as are reputed Ordinances , Duties , Rights , &c. the confessing the former , and doing the latter of which , intitles any one to those Communions . But the Communion or Fellowship of the Saints in Light is another thing . For as the Dispensation of the Gospel is Spiritual , so the Communion or Fellowship which stands in the Gospel , Phil. 1.5 . is Spiritual also . The Apostles declares the Terms thereof to be walking in the Light , when he says , if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have Fellowship one with another , &c. 1 Iohn 1.7 . As therefore the Communion of God's People is Spiritual , so the Terms of that Communion are , to receive the Holy Spirit , to be led by the Spirit , to walk in or after the Spirit , to obey the motions and requirings of the Spirit . So that it is not an acknowledgement of Doctrines , or an Observation of outward Practices , that can bring any one into the Fellowship or Communion of the People of God ( for the one may be in Words acknowledged , and the other in Act performed , by such as neither believe the one , nor regard the other . ) But it is a being truly subjected to , and led by the Spirit of God , both to believe and confess to the Doctrines of Truth , and to take up and appear in those Practices which the Spirit of Truth leads into , that are indeed the true Terms of the true Spiritual Communion . And as a coming under the Government and Guidance of the Spirit of Christ , brings into Communion or Fellowship with the Church of Christ : So the departing from the Government and Guidance of that Holy Spirit , the grieving , the quenching , or resisting of the holy Spirit in its requirings , shuts out of the Communion or Fellowship of Christ's Church . And as such a departure from the Guidance of the holy Spirit may be felt , and known by those that keep under the Spirit 's Guidance , by the holy Unction , and that Spiritual Sense ( so much at this day by the Adversaries set at naught ) which the People of God do from thence receive , as the Lord is pleased to dispense it : so may it also be certainly and safely concluded , from either an Abrenunciation and Denyal of any of the Doctrinal Principles of Truth , or from an opposing , rejecting , slighting , or reviling of any Practice which the Church of Christ is by the Spirit of Christ led into . So that , though no outward things ( whether Doctrines or Practices ) are , or can be the Terms of true Spiritual Communion : yet the rejecting , opposing , despising and slighting such outward things , as the Church of Christ is by the Spirit of Christ , led into the practice of , and finds acceptance with God in , is a certain discovering sign and token , that such Opposers are departed from under the leadings and Government of that holy Spirit , in which the Communion and true Christian Fellowship stands . In their 18th page , to suggest that Friends would use Violence as others have done , if they had more power , they say , Do not object , that was only as carried on to Violence ; for they that omit nothing of that Power they have , who can believe , if such had more , they would imploy it better . Rep. This shews their Envy , but doth no more affect us , than it would the Church of Christ in all times . The Apostles , we read , and Primitive Christians did not omit to exercise that Power they had in reproving , rebuking , denying and testifying against such , in their times , as by loose and disorderly walking , or unruly , contentious , turbulent Behaviour , disturbed the Peace of the Churches , and brought scandal upon the Profession . Such ( persisting in their disorders ) they declared not to be of them : Such ( so persisting ) we declare not to be of us . They desired no greater Power : Neither do we . They , if they had had more Power , could not have used it to outward Violence : neither could we , if it were in our power . But what might be expected from the Adversaries , if they had Power equal to their Wills , who have already given so plain a poof of their propensity to Acts of Violence , that , having no lawful Power , they have usurped a Power to keep Friends by Violence , out of their publick Meeting-Houses , wherein the Friends , so kept out , have a plain , undoubted , rightful , legal Property ! Was it not a great piece of Folly , as well as Injustice , in them , to suggest such a thing against Friends , which they knew they had no ground for ; when they could not but know with what an unavoidable force and stroke it would recoil upon themselves . In their 19th page they say , Do we think we have been the most true that have been since the Apostacy , which ( say they ) perhaps we have , as to Notion and Profession of the things of God ? Rep. They did well to say [ We ] that it may be known they speak this only of and for themselves , having , at the end of their Preface , directed us to understand the term [ We ] in respect to themselves . Friends have no need of such Advocates . The People of God , in scorn called Quakers , they who have received the Truth in the love of it , they who have obeyed the Truth in the manifestation of it , they who have kept their habitation in the Truth through the Power of it , can say beyond thinking , much more beyond thinking with a [ perhaps , ] that they have been ( and , through the preserving Power of God , are ) the most true that have been since the Apostacy , and that not only as to Profession of the things of God. but as to the true , living , experimental knowledge , injoyment and possession of the things of God. And before these Adversaries had turned their backs on Truth , and wandred from their Habitation in God , they too perhaps would , without a perhaps , have adventured to have asserted this beyond thinking , and further than Notion and Profession only . But now we see how low they are sunk , that they can content themselves to say , perhaps we have been the most true that have been since the Apostacy , as to Notion and Profession of the things of God. Notion is a term they often use in their Book , but not very properly , with respect to the things of God : for Notion imports rather an uncertain Speculation , than a solid , certain , scientifical Knowledge , such as is fit to be had of Religious matters . And therefore Persons of speculative Fancies are often called Notionists , or men of high Notions . But these men , it seems , dare pretend at highest but to Notion and Profession of the things of God , to think they have perhaps been the most true that have been since the Apostacy . It seems then they do not think they have been the most true that have been since the Apostacy , as to Life , Power , Virtue , Sincerity , divine Injoyments , experimental Knowledge in the things of God , Possession of the living Substance , &c. Nay , with them 't is but a perhaps , that as to Notion and Profession they have been the most true that have been since the Apostacy . But undoubtedly , were they not now Apostatized from what some of them once have known and been , they would not have written in such a loose and unsensible manner . In the same 19th page , they confound themselves again with another of their own Notions ; they say , We know 't is writ , they shall come from the West , North , East and South , to sit down with Abraham , Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom . ( I know there 's something written to this purpose ; but where this is thus written , I know not . ) Upon this they thus descant , Those certainly was not of one external Form or Order , as to Ceremonial and Shadowy things , yet we find they agree . ( That , say I , is more than we can find from these : for rather than these will agree , they 'l Oppose , Rail , Revile , Print against , Rend , Divide , Separate and Tear , if they could , all in pieces : ) But , say they , perhaps some will say this ( agreement of all these from the four Quarters ) is in Heaven . Well , add they , what then ? Must they not agree on Earth , that must agree in Heaven ? Rep. 'T is fit no doubt they should ; and 't were well they would , that expect to come there . But if they must agree on Earth that must agree in Heaven , then pray consider , whether such an Agreement as the Adversaries propose , p. 16 viz. that they must agree in some things , ( such as they account Essential ) but there is no necessity that they must agree in all things , will serve the purpose . Must the Agreement in Heaven be in some things only , and not in all ? What shattered work would these Men make with their idle Notions Besides , is it not too ridiculous in these men , speaking of them that shall come from the West ( for they may be allowed to begin where the Sun goes down , upon whom the Sun is already gone down ) North , East and South , to sit down with Abraham , &c. to say , those was not of one external form and order , as to Ceremonial and Shadowy things , and yet we find they agree , and apply this agreement to Heaven ? Do they think then that there are Ceremonial and Shadowy things in Heaven too , where many perhaps , if not most , of the things which they account Essential , will find no place ? However , if ( as they here , by a kind of affirmative Interrogatives , deliver ) they must agree on Earth , that must agree in Heaven : If God's will must be done on Earth , as it is done in Heaven ; then surely they must retract their Notion of a necessity of agreeing in some things ( Essentials ; ) but no necessity of agreeing in other things ( Circumstantials . ) Is the will of God , think they , done in Heaven by some , one way , by others , a clean contrary way in opposition to that ? Their Comparisons help them not , but helps Truth against them . They go on for a while in a strain of Interrogatives , pag. 20. Is not Christ , ask they , the Head of all that is good , from the least breathing to the fullest perfection ? Rep. All that is good proceeds from God and Christ. But since Head and Members are Correlatives , and all in whom some little ( not to say the least ) breathings may be , are not yet come to be joyned to the Body of which Christ is the Head , and brought into a Membership thereof , it seems not a clear and proper Expression to say Christ is the Head of all that is good , &c. There may be good desires , and true ( though weak ) Breathings after that that is good , in many in whom Christ is not Head , but the evil one is head , and Christ as in the Sepulcher ; the Seed , from which those Breathings spring , kept under , crushed down , pressed as a Cart is pressed with Sheaves , Amos 2.13 . But among all those of whom Christ is Head ought there not to be an Agreement ? Doth Christ , the Head , dispose or allow any of his Members to quarrel amongst themselves ? to oppose one another ? For some to slight , reject , deny and obstruct the work and service of the rest ? according to the Doctrine laid down by the Adversaries , pag. 16. That in Circumstantial things ( as they call them ) there is no necessity that they must agree . These consider not that Christ's Coat was without seam , Joh. 19.23 . a Tipe of Unity and Agreement even in Profession . They go on ; Doth not he own all that 's of his own beegtting , every where , according to the degree of knowledge received ? — And as Christ owns all that 's good , shall not we own it ? Rep. Yes ; He doth own all that 's of his own begetting , and so do his People . But he doth not own all those for his , and as Members of his Body , in whom he hath begot some Breathings , neither do his People . For too many , in whom such Breathings are begotten , answer not the love of him that begot them , but by joyning with the evil one , and doing that which is evil , stifle and quench those Breathings , and greive him that begot them . Therefore as Christ owns all that is good , so do his People : But neither he , nor they , own all those to be of him , and fellow Members with them , in whom there is some good thing . He has given of his good Spirit unto all , even to them that rebel against it . The Gift is good , and owned : the Rebellious bad , and disowned . They go on ; Doth not he gather all the Good together in one , even himself ? Rep. The Scripture no where saith so , that I remember . But it saith , Ephes. 1.9.10 . He hath made known unto us the Mystery of his will , according to his good pleasure , which he hath purposed in himself : That in the Dispensation of the fulness of times , he might gather together in one all things in Christ , both which are in Heaven and which are on Earth , even in him . This Universal gathering is not spoken in the present Tense , nor of the present Time ; but of the fulness of Times . Neither is it spoken simply of all the good , as they express it ; but of all in Christ : All these , both in Heaven and one Earth , hath he purposed , in the fulness of time , to gather together in one . They go on ; Doth he gather all Vniversally in every Nation that fears him , and work Righteousness , without respect to shadowy things , &c. wherein they may differ , for those he hath left unmeasured on purpose that they might not hinder , &c. And shall he not do it in one Nation ? Rep. The Scripture doth not say , He gathers all universally that fear him , and work Righteousness , without respect to shadowy things . But the Apostle Petet saith Acts 10.34.35 . Of a Truth , I perceive that God is no respecter of Persons : But in every Nation , he that feareth him , and worketh Righteousness , is accepted with him . This is without respect to Persons ; not without respect to shadowy things : For they whose Righteousness stands in shadowy things , are not therein accepted with him . But alsuch as he gathers , in this his day of Gospel substance , if they were working Righteousness in shadowy things before he gathered them , he gathers them out of the shadowy things to the substance . Here the Adversaries shew Error upon Error . First , They hereby suggest , that such as fear Christ , and are gathered by him , may continue in shadowy things ; which is contrary to the nature of the Gospel . This Error springs from another ( which it self springs from extream Ignorance ) that all Circumstantial things are shadowy . Secondly , they say , that they that fear Christ , and are gathered by him , may differ ( that is , as in pag. 16. they explain it , there is no necessity that they must agree ) in shadowy things , as if Christ gave Liberty to his to differ , disagree , contradict , oppose one another in any thing . Thirdly , that he hath left those things unmeasured on purpose that they might not hinder ( that is , not hinder their agreement . ) As if those things would have hindred their Agreement , if God had measured them ; and as if he did measure other things on purpose that they might hinder the Agreement of those about them , who were to practise them . Oh the darkness and blindness that is come over these men ! They add , The true Church is here indeed , but not yet referrable to any society , with respect to outward Rules , &c. Rep. This is the voice of the Enemy , that would detract from , and deny the work which God hath wrought , and brought forth by his Power , in this day of his Glorious Appearance ; wherein he hath reached unto many , and by the Cords of his Love hath drawn many unto himself , and hath gathered them into an heavenly Communion with himself , and into an holy Society and pure Fellowship one with another in him . Now as the true Church is here indeed , so it is indeed referrable to this Society , and that too with respect to such outward Rules , as Christ , who is the Head of this Society , hath given for the well-ordering of such outward things , as relate to the well-being and preservation of the Society . But if ( according to the Adversaries ) the true Church is not yet referrable to any Society , with respect to outward Rules ; what then will become of themselves ! Have they not hereby unchurched themselves ? Or disclaim'd Membership with the true Church ? For do not they pretend to be a Society , and that too with respect to outward Rules ? How then can they pretend to be of the true Church , which they will not allow to be yet referrable to any Society , with respect to outward Rules ? Another Passage which they Carp at in the Book they pretend to Answer , is by them thus worded ; To plead being left to the Grace of God against Vnity , is to abuse the very Plea , &c. To this they say , The Drift of this Argument is like the rest , to gaine a presumptive dependance upon men , &c. without true regard to Conviction or Perswasion . Rep. If the drift of this Argument ( as they call it ) be like the rest , then it cannot be to gain any dependence upon men , on any consideration whatsoever , without true regard to Conviction or Perswasion : For that has not been the drift of any of the rest of the Arguments or matter in that Book . But the drift of that Passage , and of the rest also , was to draw from a feigned pretence of being left to the Grace of God , ( as a Cloak of Evil , of any kind ) to a real acquaintance with , subjection to , and dependance on the Grace of God indeed . This appears ( not only from several other Passages in that Book , as , Thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly , page 3. And , It is thy Duty to wait upon God , in silence a●d patience , out of all fleshly Consultations , page 10. The People of God ought to be left to the Guidings of the Spirit of God in themselves , page 9. It is a great Truth , that all are to be left thereunto , Ibid , but ) very plainly from the words immediately foregoing those which the Adversaries Cavil at . For the Question being there put , Ought I not to be left to the Grace of God in my own Heart ? The Answer there is , That is of all things most desireable , since they are well left , that are there left ; for there is no fear of want of Vnity , where all are left with the one Spirit of Truth , page 4. This was far sure from a drift to gain a presumptive Dependence upon Men , without true regard to Conviction or Perswasion . And therefore it is evident , that the drift of the Adversaries , in suggesting this slander , is to prejudice unwary Readers against Friends , by misleading them into a wrong apprehension , that Friends endeavour to draw them from the Divine Grace , and holy Spirit in themselves , to a dependence on men , to act according as men shall direct them , without true regard to Conviction or Perswasion in themselves . But this is a foul slander upon Friends , and a gross abuse to the Readers : for indeed , the contrary hereof is most true . Friends as they have always done , so now , as much as ever , do direct all to the heavenly Gift , the saving-Grace that hath appeared , the manifestation of the Spirit in themselves , of it to learn , and on it to depend , for both Conviction and Conduct in their Religious Performances . But , as on the one hand , they labour to bring every one to an acquaintance with this heavenly Gift in themselves , and a true dependence on it for Guidence by it : So , on the other hand , they caution all to beware , that they be not beguiled by the Enemy in themselves , ( who forms Likenesses of heavenly things , on purpose to deceive and mislead thereby , and for the same end transforms himself into an Angel of Light , ) and take him for their Guide and Leader , as too many have done , instead of the Spirit of Truth ; and then demand to be left to the Grace of God in themselves , when indeed they are gone from the Grace of God in themselves , and oppose the manifestations , operations , and productions thereof in others . So that the Controversy ( rightly stated , and truly considered ) is not about being left , or not left , to the Grace of God ( for that all should be left to that , was never doubted , much less denyed , by Friends ) but about being left , or not left , to that which is pretended to be the Grace of God , but indeed and in truth is not it ; and by the fruits it brings forth sufficiently manifests , that it is not it . They say , 't is true , to plead this against our understanding is an abuse of the Plea , and is little better than Heresie , but none can be an Heretick that truly fears God ; therefore , to plead this against this or that thing , brought in by this or that Man , or by this or that Assembly , that we believe is wrong , is so far from abusing the Plea , that it may be a true using of it . Rep. This is a very loose and trifling way of arguing , having nothing cogent or conclusive in it . The Passage they oppose is this , To plead being left to the Grace of God against Vnity , is to abuse the very Plea. This was grounded upon , and drawn from an undenyed Proposition , that where all are left with the one Spirit of Truth , they must be of one mind , they can't be otherwise . Now from this Proposition , that All who are left with ( that is , led by ) the one Spirit of Truth , must be of one mind , it fairly and naturally follows , that for any to plead a being left to the Grace of God , and led by the Spirit of God in themselves , in order to countenance or defend a being of a contrary , opposite mind from the rest that are led by the Spirit of God , is to abuse the Plea ; and to commit ( as the Author of the Examination there says ) the greatest Contradiction to that very Doctrine of Scripture , viz. that all should be guided by the Grace and Spirit of God in themselves : for the End of that Doctrine is Certainty ; which the Author there confirms by several Scripture-Evidences , as Ier. 32.39 . Ezek. 11.19 . Acts 4.32 . &c. This the Adversaries do not attempt to answer : but turn the matter from pleading this against Unity , to pleading it against Understanding , which , they say , is little be●ter than Heresie , and grant that to do thus is an abuse of the Plea. But can nothing be an abuse of the Plea , but using it against Understanding ? What if any have so little understanding in the things of God , as to believe that God's People may be led by the one Spirit of Truth to disagree , act contrary to , and oppose one another in the things of God ( as the Adversaries say , in their 16th page , There is no necessity that they must agree in things Circumstantial : ) is not this to abuse the Plea , though it should not be done against Understanding , but for want of Vnderstanding ? For the Plea of being left to the Grace of God in ones self , is therefore said to be abused , because used to an End and purpose directly contrary to that , for which it was given . For the end for which it was given is to bring men into Unity , both with God ( from whom the Devil , by Transgression , divided them ) and with one another in the things of God , in whom is no variableness , nor shadow of turning . And therefore to plead being led by it , out of Unity , and against Unity , is to abuse the very Plea. And surely , if they go not against their Understandings , they go much without Vnderstanding , in concluding , that because it is an abuse of the Plea to plead this against Understanding , therefore ( for so they infer ) to plead this against this or that thing , brought in by this or that man , or by this or that Assembly , that we believe is wrong , is so far from abusing the Plea , that it may be a true using of it . For here is not only no Coherence between their Premises and Conclusion : but a plain departing from the terms of the Proposition ; which was a Pleading this ( of being left to the Grace of God in themselves ) against Vnity . Which word they wholly leave out , and instead thereof put in [ to plead this against this or that thing , b●ought in by this or that man , &c. ] This shews their shuffling , and idle way of arguing . However , we deny that any thing , believed or practised as a Religious Duty among us , was brought in by any man o● men , as men , but by the Spirit of the Lord , opening Counsel in the hearts of his Servants , and throu●h them recommending the use of such things to the Church of Christ ; and opening the hearts of such as waited singly in the same Spirit of Truth , to receive , close and joyn with the same , from an inward sense , Conviction and Perswasion that the things so recommended were of God : In which we have been , and are , abundantly confirmed , by the sweet and powerful presence of the Lord with and amongst us in the use thereof , evidencing to our Spirits his accepting us therein . And if the Adversaries believe those things to be wrong , that doth not prove they are wrong ; though it may prove their belief and themselves wrong . In their 21th page , They quote another passage out of the said Book , in these words ; " I must say unto thee , Friend , what if thou wilt not be left unto the Grace and Spirit of God in thy self ? ( Here they break off with an , &c. omitting the rest of the Sentence , which in the said Book follows thus , ) nor wait for its mind , nor be watchful to its Revelations , nor humble and quiet till thou hast received such necessary manifestations , but pleadest against the Counsel of the Spirit of the Lord in other faithful Persons , under the pretence of being left to his Spirit in thy self ; by which means thou opposest the Spirit to the Spirit , and pleadest for disunity under the name of Liberty . Their Answer is , Then such do the thing that is extreamly Evil. Rep. No doubt of that . But when they do so , what is to be done in the case ? Are they to be left to their Liberty and Freedom in doing the thing that is extreamly Evil ? Is the Church bound to own them , receive them , acknowledge and admit them , not only for Members , but Ministers and Preachers , while they are doing the thing that is so extreamly Evil ? Or in case they disturb her godly Care and Practice , and grow Contentious , and exalt their Judgment against her , ( as the Adversaries have done , ) hath she power from God to exhort , admonish and reprove them , and ( if they persevere therein ) in his Name to refuse any further fellowship with them , till they repent of their Evil , as , in the 10. pag. of the Book they pretend to Answer , is laid down , but not taken up , answered , or taken notice of by them , that I find . Having nimbly answered to the former Quotation , Then such do the thing that is extreamly evil ; they immediately add , but on the other hand , what if they are left with the Grace and Spirit of God , which they may , or at least some ; for any thing that he hath said . Rep. May they so ? That 's strange ! They that will not wait for the mind of God's Spirit , not be watchful to its Revelations , nor humble and quiet till they have received such necessary Manifestations , but plead against the Counsel of the Spirit of the Lord in other faithful Persons , under the pretence of being left to his Spirit in themselves , and so oppose the Spirit to the Spirit , and plead for Disunity under the name of Liberty ; may they for any thing that he hath said ( who hath said all this here , and more elsewhere ) be left with ( that is led by ) the Grace and Spirit of God in this ? But say they , What care has he taken ? What remedy has he provided , that true Liberty and Freedom of Speech may be maintained ? Rep. Let them shew , if they can , when or where true Liberty and Freedom of Speech hath been denied by Friends . That it hath been indeed by the Adversaries , may be proved , if need require . But it may well be supposed what sort of Liberty and Freedom of Speech they would maintain , by the Licencious Liberty they have taken , and used in speaking of , and against such Persons and things , as they dislike : a Liberty to rail at and revile those whom they call their Brethren , under the Names of Apostates , Innovators , Introducers of Popery , Setters up of Im●ges , Idolaters , Idol Prophets , a treacherous Company , &c. a Liberty to mock at scoff , jear and deride the order and discipline of the Church of Christ , under the contemptuous names of Canons , Constitutions , human-Prescriptions , Mens-Inventions , Edicts , Bulls , &c. This is the Liberty and Freedom they have hitherto used , both in speaking and writing ; how true , and fit to be maintained , let all , that live in Truth , judge . To the Author's Question , whether he may not exhort to the practice of what he is moved to press to the practice of ; they Answer , We graunt he may , &c. Adding , It 's not our Duty to obey him , because he says it , but because we know , or at least are perswaded , that what he says is true , page 22. Rep. Neither that Author , nor any Friend besides , ever exhorted or desired ( much less pressed as a Duty on any ) to obey him , or to do any thing of a Religious concern , because he said it ; but have alwayes directed to that which would give every one a certain knowledge , and Perswasion of the thing so exhorted to . There was therefore no need for the Adversaries to fence themselves against that which was never offered them . But they delight , by such suggestions , to insinuate evil surmises into the minds of their beguiled Proselites . In their 22. pag. They quibble upon the words [ Common , and Universal : ] for citing these words out of the Book they pretend to Answer , viz. But therefore are not the Members of one mind and Iudgement , in common and universal matters , relating to the Church of God ? They answer , There is not much doubt in this when truly understood ; but we are to mind , say they , that we be not deceived and imposed upon , as to what is , or ought to be accounted common and universal matters . Hereupon they give us their notion thereof , both affirmatively and negatively , thus ; By common and universal matters we understand ( and we hope , say they , according to Truth ) what has been commonly and universally received , and not new and novel things that have not been so received . Rep. This is not according to Truth , which is free and illimitable ; whereas this would lay a Limit and Restraint upon God , from opening the way of Truth and Righteousness further and further , and from adding such helps and means for the Propagation thereof , and preservation of his People therein , as he in his unsearchable Wisdom shall see need of : For every fresh Discovery may on this pretence be slighted , rejected as a Novelty , in the same Spirit wherein the World rejects the whole way of Truth as a Novelty . Common and Universal matters therefore , relating to the Church of God , are not to be restrained to such things as have been commonly and universally received . For the envious Seeds-Man was not backward to sow his evil Seed betimes ; and Captious Spirits have risen up early ( as well as now of late ) excepting against , some one , some an other thing , in Doctrine or Practice , yet pretending to own the Fundamental principle of Truth . So that the most approved practice amongst Friends may , perhaps , fall short of having been , in a strict Sense , Universally received : For Universal admits no Exception . But by Common and Universal matters , relating to the Church of God , are to be understood matters of Common and Universal Vse and Service in the Church of God ; things not peculiar to this , that , or to'ther Member only , but of common use or benefit to all the Members of the Body . And that the Author so meant it , his own words plainly shew , page 5. Where he says , Degree or Measure in the same Life can never contradict or obstruct that which is from the same Life , for the common benefit of the Family of God. Did Iude call the Salvation he writ of verse 3. Common , because it was commonly received ; or because it was offered , intended and tendred as a Common Benifit to all that would receive it ? And whereas the Adversaries say , This of Conviction and Perswasion preceding Conformity , hath been a Common and Vniversal matter or thing , because commonly and universally received among us as a great Truth . I Reply , It is indeed a great Truth , and hath been , and is , a common and universal Matter ; but not for the cause or reason they assign : For if it had not been commonly and universally received among us , as a great Truth ; yet it would have been a common and universal Matter , relating to the Church of God , because it is a Matter of common and universal Service and Benefit to all and every Member in the Church of God. But since they here acknowledge that this Doctrine , of Conviction and Perswasion preceding Conformity , hath been commonly and universally received among us as a great Truth ; they do ill to insinuate ( which too frequently they do , ) that Friends would draw any to a Conformity to any thing before , or without , Conviction or Perswasion . In their 23d page , They pick another piece of a Sentence out of the Book they pretend to Answer , which they set down thus , What comes from the Light , Life and Spirit in one , is the same in Truth and Vnity to the rest , as if it rise in themselves . This is seen in our Assemblies every day , &c. Now because they dare not directly gainsay this , and yet are disposed to wrangle , they pretend to know the Design of the Argument , and quarrel with that . The Design , they say , of this Argument is to gain a dependance upon the Teachings of God , by Instruments , equal at least to the Teaching of God , immediately by his Spirit , in our own hearts ; and this ( they say ) how plausible soever , is not according to the Truth , as 't is in Iesus . Rep. Their surmise in this Case is wrong and Evil , and therefore not according to Truth . That which they suggest to be the Design , was not the Design of that Argument ( as they call it . ) But the plain and true Design of it was to obviat an Objection , and cut off a false Plea for Disunion and Discord , grounded upon variety of Measures , and diversity of Gifts and Offices in the Body . For the Author . having put the Question , page 4. Are there not various Measures , diversities of Gifts , and several Offices in the Body ? And having granted that there are , proves that that variety and diversity of Measures , Gifts and Offices in the Body , administers no ground for Disunion , Discord or Contrariety amongst the members of the Body ; since it is a false way of Reasoning to conclude Discord from Diversity , Contrariety from Variety : which having illustrated by an Instance of the various Senses in a natural Body , without any Contrariety flowing from that variety , he shews , page 5. That Diversity of Gifts doth not infer Disagreement in Sense , nor variety of Offices contrariety in Judgment concerning those Offices . Then having , from the concurrent Testimonies of the holy Scriptures , set forth the Unity of God , he infers that the Light , Life and Spirit of God is at unity with it self in all ; and what comes from the Light , Life or Spirit in one , it is the same in Truth and Vnity to the rest , as if it rise in themselves . For this he appealed to the daily experience of Friends in our Meetings , where the Living and sensible ones know , that what comes from the Light , Life or Spirit of God in any Friend that Ministers , is felt , received , closed with and united to as Truth , by those that in the same Light , Life and Spirit wait , as well as if it had arose in themselves . this was the Design of the Author's words in that place , as is apparent to any that fairly reads them ; and the Design was good . But the Design of the Adversaries was Evil , in surmising another Design without ground , that they might make an occasion for Cavilling . For they are fain to confess , that there is no contrariety in the Spirit of God , no Contradiction in the Spirit 's Teaching , being all for one and the same end , the good of Man , by the Salvation of his Soul. Nay , they acknowledge , There is so much Truth in what the Author hath said , that when fairly stated , they are content it should be as a Rule to measure the whole difference by . And yet they spend about a couple of Pages in Carping at it . They say , betwixt God's Teaching by Instruments , and Teaching immediately by his Spirit in our own hearts , there is this Distinction or Difference , that the first is but to prepare , the latter to perfect . Whereas the Scripture saith expresly , When Christ ascended up on high , he gave gifts unto Men , some , Apostles ; and some , Prophets ; and some , Evangelists , and some , Pastors and Teachers ; for the perfecting of the Saints , &c. Eph. 4.8 , 11 , 12. So that hence it appears that the Teaching of God , through such Instruments as he gives his heavenly Gifts unto , for the work of the Ministry , hath a further tendency and Service , than but ( or only ) to prepare : for those Gifts were given for the Edifying ( that is , building up , or Establishing ) of the Body of Christ , and for the Perfecting of the Saints . This shews , the Adversaries , for all their high Notions and fluttering Pretences , are short of a right understanding , and to seek in the work of the Ministry , being ignorant of the true and full end of Divine Ministerial Gifts . So again they say , page 23. When the things of God do come from God's holy Spirit immediately , they are then as the Oracles of God. this shews they do not reckon them as the Oracles of God , if they come from the Light , Life ▪ or Spirit of God through Instruments . But the Apostle Peter ( who knew as much as they , and is fitter to be believed than they ) saith , If any Man speak , let him speak as the Oracles of God , &c. 1 Pet. 4.11 . So that the Apostle , it seems , understood no other , but that the things of God , when Ministred as of the ability which God giveth , were as the Oracles of God , though spoken by or through Man. To make way yet for more wrangling , they reason after this manner ; either say they , all that do speak in our Assemblies or Meetings , speak from the Light , Life and Spirit , or all do not , if all do so speak , prove it ; if all do not so speak , then you must give us a certain Rule to know who do so speak and who do not . Rep. At the end of their Preface , they give an Advertisement , that where the Term You is found in the following Discourse , ( namely in their Book ) they intend the Author ( viz. of the Book they pretend to Answer ) and those of his mind . And where the term We is also used ( in their Book ) it may be understood in respect to those of the same mind with the Author of that Book of theirs . So that You and We are there set for Characteristical Notes , or distinguishing Terms , between Friends and them ; Friends being intended and denoted by the word You , and themselves by the word We. Now since Your and Our are but Derivatives from You and We , each ought to follow its own Primitive . And since by the term We , they would have themselves to be understood , it is but reason that by the term Our Assemblies or Meetings , their own Assemblies or Meetings should be understood , not the Assemblies or Meetings of Friends : especially , seeing they have Meetings of their own , properly their own , set up themselves , in their own wills and choice , in a Spirit of separation from the Meetings of Friends , and in opposition to them . Now , if we take them in this Sense , when they say as before , Either all that do speak in Our Assemblies or Meetings , speak from the Light , Life and Spirit , or all do not ; I shall easily grant , what they say they take for granted , that all that speak in their Assemblies or Meetings , do not speak from the Light , Life and Spirit of God , if any do . But if they mistook themselves here , and by Our Assemblies or Meetings , intended the Assemblies or Meetings of Friends , and so put the Question , whether all that speak in the Meetings of Friends , do speak from the Light , Life and Spirit of God , or not . I Reply , No ▪ For many of the Adversaries themselves ( who are gone into a wicked separation from Friends , and instead of abideing in the Light , Life and Spirit of God , are got into an ungodly Spirit of Wrangling and Quarrelling , Rayling and Reviling , Envy , Bitterness and Restless Contention ) do notwithstanding thrust into Friends Meetings , and there take upon them to speak , though they ( or their Party ) have openly denyed Friends in Print . This is such a work of darkness and horrible Hypocrysie , as manifests that such speak not from the Light , Life or Spirit of God. But whereas they say , You must give us a certain Rule to know who do so speak , and who do not , or otherwise you must leave us to receive or refuse , according to the best of our understanding ; ( which they repeat over and over , biding us ) Observe , either you must give us a Rule as above , or you must leave us free , &c. I Reply , Friends have always directed and left them , and all others , to that which makes free indeed , the Truth , Iohn 8.32 . And their insinuating the contrary , is a foul Slander , and a wicked Design . I would to God they , who are run into Enmity to and separation from Friends , would leave us free , and not impose upon us their Preaching and Praying , which they have been often told Friends cannot receive or own . And whereas they say , both here in page 24. and elsewhere , We take it for granted , that you can give no such Rule . I Reply , They mistake , taking that for granted which they ought not . That Light , Life , Spirit , Grace or Truth , which Friends have always directed them and all unto , is a Rule . a certain Rule , to know who speak from it , and who do not . And they that abide in it , and are attentive to it , do know who speak from it , and who do not ; who are acted by it , and who are not : and know accordingly what , and whom , to receive , and what , and whom , to refuse . For the true Sheep know the true Shepherd's Voice , Iohn 10.4 . and 27. which is more than words . But there is a difference between being left to this Light , Grace or Spirit of God in our selves , to receive or refuse according to that ; and being left to our own understanding , to receive or refuse according to the best of that , as the Adversaries would be left . For Man's understanding , as it is a natural Faculty , must be illuminated by this heavenly Light and Spirit of God , before it can receive , or know , the things of God , because they are Spiritually discerned . 1 Cor. 2.14 . Well therefore did the Wise-man advise , Trust in the Lord with all thine heart , and lean not to thine own understanding , Prov. 3.5 . In the close of their 24 page , They say , We may safely conclude , where Conviction and Perswasion are disallowed , that Government ceaseth to be true . Rep. But where is that ? not amongst Friends , I am sure . This they have suggested over and over ; but without proof , without colour . The contrary has been asserted and proved over and over , again and again , and that by undenyable Evidences , from that very Book they pretend to Answer , As thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly , page 3. The People of God ought to be left to the Guidings of the Spirit of God in themselves , page 9. It is a great Truth that all are to be left thereunto , ibid. And again , If thou dost not presently see that Service in a thing , that the rest of thy Brethren agree in , it is thy Duty ( what to do ? not to Conform without or against Conviction or Perswasion , but ) to wait upon God in silence and patience , out of all fleshly Consultations , &c. page 10. These plain Testimonies , one would think , were enough to stop the clamorous mouth of slanderous Envy . They begin their 25th page with a Passage , which they single out of the 6th page of the Book they pretend to Answer ; And they word it thus , They that walk in the Light , have Fellowship one with another , 1 Iohn 1. Whence he saith , 't is easy to conclude . that those that go out of Fellowship , go out of the Light , &c. Upon this they spend about four pages in meer Cavilling . And to make the more way for their Cavilling , they miscite the Passage , leaving out a word of small sound , but of great force in the present Case , because a strong Emphasis lies upon it . For whereas the Author's words were , they that go out of [ the ] Fellowship , go out of the Light ; the Adversaries , omitting the word [ the ] report him to have said , They that go out of Fellowship , go out of the Light ; By that means , making themselves a liberty to extend this to any sort of Fellowship , that they have a mind to stretch it to , which was spoken Emphatically , and by way of Excellency , of that Divine and Spiritual Fellowship , which is attained only by walking in the Light. Nor was this a single slip , or oversight ; but seven or eight times over have they here repeated this Passage in the same Terms , and with the same Omission : and have made advantage of it accordingly , to prevent the Sense , abuse the Author , and beguil the Reader . For in their 26th page . They put themselves upon the Inquiry , What must be understood by the word Fellowship ; for , they say , it cannot stand of it self ( it seems they take it for a Noun Adjective ) and they have taken from it that , by which it might have both stood , and been understood . They pursue their Inquiry thus ; Therefore , say they , to make it intelligible in the best Sense , we must joyn to it what he calls the Church , and then ( add they ) that Church must relate to People , and at last ( say they ) we judge , it must relate to those Orders , Rules and Forms , that are set up by this Church , &c. Thus have they taken away what they pleased from the Author's words , and added to them of their own , that they might the more foully pervert the Sense and meaning of them . Whereas the Author's words , [ They that go out of the Fellowship , go out of the Light , ] had a direct and limitted relation to that Fellowship which stands in the Light , which they that walk in the Light have one with another , in and by walking in the Light. So that the true Fellowship here treated of , is a pure , holy , Spiritual Fellowship , which God's People have and enjoy one with another ; and their Fellowship one with another stands in that wherein their Fellowship stands with God ; not in any Ceremonial or shadowy thing , as the Adversaries , with an evil mind , suggest . They say , page 25 , We may see the cunning that is in Daubing , as well as something of that ground of the false Reasoning , that is among the Children of men . Their Daubing , and their Cunning is laid open in the foregoing . Their false Reasoning , and their Folly will appear in what follows . They tell us , page 25 , Every saying or Position hath only one other Saying or Position that stands against it ; if therefore ( say they ) what is brought as the Antithesis , differ from the direct opposite Sense , the work that follows , or what is builded upon it , cannot be true . Rep. This is so opposite to Sense , that it is hard to pick any Sense out of it . Antithesis is a Position directly contrary to another Position , which is the Thesis to it ; and it must differ from the Thesis , or direct opposite Sense , which it is brought against , else it is not truly Antithesis : Yet they would have it , that if it do differ from the direct opposite Sense , it cannot be true . They have got hold of a Cramp-word ( as the saying is ) and seem very fond of it ; but handle it with so little skill , a shews they do not rightly understand it : For they confound Thesis with Antithesis , making the same words some times one , some times to'ther ; not considering that themselves at the same time say , Opposites remain as fixt in their Sense , as the East doth from the West . Then sure they are not Convertible . Yet they make those words , [ They that go out of Fellowship , go out of the Light , ] one while a Thesis or Position ; another while an Antithesis , which is quite contrary . Again , they say , This Position , that they that go out of Fellowship , go out of the Light , he brings as the true Antithesis to this Position of Scripture , quoted 1 John 1. or he doth not so bring it ; if he doth not bring it as true , he deceives or abuses his Reader , but if he doth bring it as the true Antithesis , he is mistaken . Rep. What ground had they to dream that he brought it as an Antithesis at all ? He no where calls it so : Nay , he directly calls it a Conclusion , ( his words are , Whence it is easy to conclude , They that go out of the Fellowship , go out of the Light : ) And cannot they discern between a Conclusion and an Antithesis ? They had better then not have medled with either . Is every Conclusion an Antithesis , do they think ? They say , He brings it as the true Antithesis , or he doth not so bring it ; if he doth not bring it as true , he deceives or abuses his Reader . Here , to shew their Cunning in Daubing , they leave out the word Antithesis in the latter Clause of the Sentence , and only say ; if he doth not bring it as true , he deceives or abuses his Reader . But he doth bring it as true ( though not Antithesis , but ) Conclusion from the Premises ; so that they deceive themselves and their Readers , and abuse him . They grant , from the Text in Iohn , that The ground and cause of true Fellowship , is a walking in the Lig●t . And it is very evident , that it was this true Fellowship , which walking in the Light is the Ground and Cause of , that the Author spake of , whom he said , They that go out of the Fellowship , go out of the Light , because he inferr'd it from having Fellowship by walking in the Light , asserted by the Apostle , 1 Iohn 1. Now therefore , after all their wrangling , and idle Cavilling about it , I desire they will seriously consider , whether they that go out of this true Fellowship , which stands in the Light , which is attained only by walking in the Light , or which ( as their own phrase is ) walking in the Light is the ground and cause of , do not go out of the Light in which the Fellowship stands , when they go out of the Fellowship which stands in the Light. They say , The proof that the work is true , is the witness in a Man 's own mind by the cleansing from all Sin ; and they add , without this , Fellowship is ineffectual . Rep. I grant that Cleansing , being an effet of walking in the Light , is a good proof of such walking . But since Cleansing is a gradual work : ( for as , Nemo repentè fit Turpissimus ; So Nemo repente fir Purgatissimus : As no Man becomes most filthy all on a sudden ; so neither is it usual for any one to be made throughly Clean in a moment : ) Cleansing from all sin is the highest degree of Cleansing . Now though the further this work of Cleansing is carried on , the more sweet and precious the Fellowship is ; yet to assert ( as the Adversaries here do ) that without cleansing from all Sin , this Fellowship is ineffectual , is an Error . For while the work of Cleansing is but in part wrought , and is carrying on from one degree to an other , this holy Fellowship is of good effect to them , who by walking in the Light , are brought into , and preserved in it . I find the Author of the Book I am Replying to , doth not weigh his matter in the true Ballance before he brings it forth ; but runs on in a dark way of natural Reasoning ( wherein his greatest strength seems to ly ) which leads him to lay hold too suddenly of Crude and indigested Notions , which will not stand , when brought to the true Tryal . But to manifest more directly to him and his Party , their mistake in the present Instance , I recommend to their Consideration , whether they , among themselves , have , or pretend to have any Fellowship one with another , or no. If they have ; whether All in that Fellowship can in truth say , they are cleansed from All Sin. If they cannot ; then whether ( according to their own Position before laid down ) that Fellowship of theirs is not ineffectual . This concerns all them that value that Fellowship , or themselves for being in it , to consider . In their 27th and 28th pages , having spoken of the Church 's going into the Wilderness , and of her being led out of it again by Christ , they say , As we believe there is to be no end of the Increase of his Government now begun , we are to consider there is some alteration in the work ; it then decreased , it must now increase , and if it must increase , we may will consider , as God is infinite and eternal , he hath still more Wisdom , Power and Glory to reveal . Rep. There is no doubt but he hath : And in his Wisdom he hath revealed such things , as his Wisdom saw needful and useful to his Church and People , which by his glorious Power he hath confirmed them in ; And which the Adversaries , in their carnal Wisdom , judging too mean and low for them to receive , have despised , reproached , rejected and opposed . But while they here admit , that God hath still more Wisdom , Power and Glory to reveal , they seem to have forgotten how oft throughout their Book , they have scornfully rejected things as New and Novel , and bounded all to their beginning . Again they say , there must be a looking forward , and not backward for the mind of Christ. Rep. Why then would they limit us to their beginning , as in their 5th and 9th pages , as if nothing were to be received , but what is ( in their esteem ) Essential to true Religion , or which hath been from their beginning ? Is not that looking backward , instead of forward ? Besides , if there must be a looking forward , and not backward ( as they say ) for the mind of Christ ; why then do they twit us with unscriptural Orders , and peremptorily call for a plain Scripture Proof for this or that Practice ? Is not this looking backward , instead of forward ? For the Scriptures , they know , were written many hundred years ago . Thus their weakness and self Contradiction appears . But this is not all . Their Position is unsound in it self . They say , there must be a looking forward , and not backward for the mind of Christ. This Negative part of their Position is false and Erronious , excluding the Scriptures of Truth to be looked in for the mind of Christ. Herein they Err to one Extream , as the World 's People do to the other . They are for looking backward , not forward , for the mind of Christ ; backward to the Scriptures , which they call such a compleat Canon , as admits no Addition , or further discovery of the mind of God ; not forward , as believing God hath so bound himself up to what is revealed in the holy Scripture , that he will not reveal his mind any further . These , on the other hand , are for looking forward , not backward , for the mind of Christ. The Truth lies between these two Extreams . There ought to be a looking both forward , and backward , for the minde of Christ. not only forward , to every fresh and further manifestation , discovery or Revelation of his minde : but also backward , to those Revelations , discoveries or manifestations of the minde of Christ , which we have already received from him in our selves , and which the Church of Christ in Ages past received from him , through the holy Spirit , and are recorded in the holy Scriptures , which were written for our Instruction . Thus running on headily and in haste , the Adversaries have shut out the use and Service of the Scriptures of Truth , from being look'd into for the minde of Christ. They say , We should not think by what we know , to measure what is to come ; and they add , we hereby limit the holy One as much as is in our power , &c. Rep. They directed us before , at the end of their Preface , to understand the term [ We ] of those that are of the same minde with the Author of their Book . Now this which they here say ▪ of limitting the holy One , &c. They speak in the term [ We. ] So that this is applicable to themselves , by their own direction . I am sensible indeed , that what they here speak concerning themselves , is true ; and I am sorry for it : for hence has proceeded their hurt , and the loss that is come upon them . They have measured the Lord 's Appearances by the false Metwand of their own conceited Knowledge , and the things they so measured not answering their expectation by that measure , they have rejected , despised and vilified the things themselves , blasphemed the Power which led Friends into the practice of them , turn'd head against their Brethren , disquieted and disturbed the Church of Christ , proclaimed in Print open War , and set up their separate Meetings , as Ensigns and Standards thereof . Their 29th page contains a Quotation out of the Book they pretend to Answer . It is too long to transcribe ( being almost a page ) consisting of many particulars , pickt out of the 6th and 8th pages of that Book , but not fairly : for , besides other Variations , there is this material one , that whereas the Author 's own words are , If I will not comply with him that God hath made an Eye , &c. They have cited it , If I will not comply with him that is made an Eye , &c. leaving out God , that they might make room for an evil minde to furmise , that the Eye there spoken of might be of Man's making , not of God 's ; though the Author had expresly said , Him that GOD hath made an Eye This shews ( as they elsewhere reflect , page 25th ) more Cunning in Daubing , than honesty in Dealing . In their Answer they say , 't is plain the Author intended to gain a dependance upon what he calls the Church . Rep. 'T is plain they herein abuse the Author , and endeavour to mislead their Reader . 'T is plain the Author had no intention , nor doth his Discourse tend , to gain a dependence upon the Church , or upon any thing else than what the Church it self is built and depends upon , Christ Jesus , the Head thereof . That which they Carp at is a Scripture-Metaphor , borrowed from the Apostle Paul , 1 Cor. 12. And the Author 's intention in using it was no other , than to reprove , and refute the folly of those , who from the variety of Measures , diversity of Gifts and Offices in the Spiritual Body , would infer , and bring in a Liberty and allowance for the members of that Body to disagree among themselves , to contradict and oppose each other , in and about the self same matter and thing , relating to the Family or Church of God. That this was his Intention , appears most plainly in his 4th page . Now in order to convince such of the weakness , unreasonableness , and falseness of that Plea , he used the Comparison which the Apostle had made , drawn from a natural Body , wherein , notwithstanding there are divers Members , and various Offices to which they are adapted , yet is there no disagreement among them , no Contrariety , Contradiction , or Opposition . So that the Adversaries , in this Cavil , do but in effect carp at the Apostle , at the Holy Scripture , and at the Spirit of Truth by which it was written . But I come to particulars of their Answer . Having said , 't is plain his intention is to gain a Dependance upon what he calls the Church , they add , And that he makes infallible as she relates to Men. Rep. This is a notorious Falsehood , not to be fastned on any thing in his Book ; and that I suppose , they were sensible of : for they do not attempt to quote any passage of his in proof of it , but endeavour to prop up this , by setting another Falsehood to it , which is this ; That she must relate to Men is clear , the Difference ( say they ) being betwixt Men and Men. This is false as well as the former . The Difference is not betwixt Men and Men ; if it were , it would relate to the things of Men , such things as are common to Men as Men. But the Difference is between Spirit and Spirit , and relates to the things of the Church , not of the World ; of Christians , not of Men as Men. But the Adversaries , in their carnal minds , distinguish not between Men and Christians . Next they say , He makes no provision in all his Book to the contrary , by allowing Conviction to precede Conformity . Rep. Doubtless the Adversaries are come to an high degree of obstinate hardness , that without remorse they can so often repeat so foul a Falsehood as this . How many places have I already cited out of that Book ( in which , they say , he makes no provision at all for this ) which plainly convict them of Falsehood and Slander therein ! when he said , page 3. Thou art not to conform to a thing ignorantly ; was here no Provision at all made for Conviction to precede Conformity ! If they were not to conform ignorantly , then surely they were to know , be perswaded , convinced , before they conformed . So that here was a good provision made , that Conviction should precede Conformity . When , to the Question , [ Ought I not to be left to the Grace and Spirit of God in my own heart , ] He Answered , Yea , that is of all things most desireable , &c. page 3. and 4. when he said , page 9. The People of God ought to be left to the Guidings of the Spirit of God in themselves ; and again , It is a great Truth that all are to be thereunto left ; was here no Provision at all for Conviction to precede Conformity ! what better Provision could have been made for allowing Conviction to precede Conformity , than to declare that God 's People ought to be left to the Guidings of God 's Spirit in themselves ? Is it not from the Spirit of God in ones self , that Conviction or Perswasion of Duty is to be accepted and received ? will the Spirit of God lead them that ●e left to the Guidings of it , to Conformity before Conviction ? no sure . The leaving therefore of God 's People to the Guidings of God 's Spirit in themselves , was the best Provision could have been made for Conviction to precede Conformity . When , to the Question , [ If I do not presently see that Service in a thing , that the rest of my Brethren agree in , in this case what is my Duty ? ] He Answered , It is thy Duty to wait upon God in silence and Patience , out of all fleshly Consultation , and as thou abidest in the simplicity of Truth , thou wilt receive an understanding with the rest of thy Brethren about the thing doubted ; was there no Provision at all here , for allowing Conviction to precede Conformity ! Did he say , thou must Conform before or without Coviction ? whether thou seest the Service , or no ? Whether thou hast received an Understanding about it , or no ? Nay , did he not positively exclude that , and obviate this Cavil , by saying directly , It is thy Duty to waite upon God , &c. And what was such an one to wait upon God for ? to be lead into Conformity before Conviction ? no sure ; but to receive Conviction from God : therefore he there added , And as thou abidest in the simplicity of Truth , thou wilt receive an Vnderstanding , &c. Nay , so far was he from favouring ( much more from pressing ) Conformity before Conviction , that , having declared , as before , the Duty of such an unconvinced , doubting one ; he adds also , what is the Duty of the Brethren towards such an one , thus , And it is their Duty , whilst thou behavest thy self in meekness and humility , to bear with thee , and carry themselves tenderly and lovingly towards thee . Can any be so impudent as yet to say , that he makes no Provision in all his Book to the contrary , by allowing Conviction to precede Conformity ! Nay , the Adversaries themselves say of him , page 16. That they believe he desires all should be Guided by God's Spirit . Doth this look like leading into blind Obedience , like drawing to Conformity before Conviction , like drawing to a Dependence upon Men , as they often suggest against him ! how abominably wicked are they herein ! In their 30 page , they quarrel at some particular passages in the large Quotation they gave before , relating to the Metaphor of a natural Body . As first , they say , The Author seems to make the Church immediately joyned to Christ for her Head , as the natural Body 〈◊〉 joyned to the natural Head. Rep. Doth this offend them ? It is then because they do not know the true Church , nor her strict Conjunction with or to her Head. Do they indeed think the true Church is not immediately joyned to Christ for her Head ! were they of that Church , they would think otherwise . It concerns them to consider , whether they are not such as the Apostle complained of , Col. 2.19 . for not holding the Head , from which all the body , by joynts and bands having nourishment ministred , and knit together , increaseth with the increase of God. The same Apostle exhorting the Ephesians not to be tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , by the slight of Men , and cunning Craftiness , whereby they ly in wait to deceive , Ephes. 4.14 . adds , But speaking the Truth in love , may grow up into him in all things , which is the Head , even Christ : from whom the whole Body fitly joyned together , and compacted by that which every joynt supplyeth , according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the Body unto the edifying of it self in love . And Baeza , on these words , thus noteth ; Thereof it followeth , saith he , that neither this Body can live without Christ , neither can any Man grow up Spiritually , that separateth himself from the other Members . A fit Note , and worthy to be noted by all those , who have separated themselves from that Church , which yet they acknowledge to be true . They Cavil yet further at the parts of the Metaphor taken from a natural Body , which shews they do not well understand the nature of a Metaphor , Comparison , or Sinicle , which ( as the saying is ) runs not on all four , nor agrees in every particular ; but it is enough if it square in these parts , wherein the Comparison lies . When Christ compared his Coming ) called by the Apostles , the coming of the day of the Lord , 1 Thes. 5.2 . and 2 Pet. 3.10 . ) to the coming of a Theif , Matth. 24.43 , 44. it was not with respect to the end or intention of the coming of each : ( for the Thief cometh not but to steal , kill and destroy , Iohn 10.10 . Whereas Christ came to give Life , and to Save . ) But it was with respect to the unexpected suddenness of the coming of each . The comparing the Members of Christ 's Body to the Members of a natural Body , was not to tie the Spiritual Members to a strict and exact proportion and agreement , in every respect , to the Members of a natural Body , in all and singular the Offices , Properties , Qualifications and Faculties of the Members of a natural Bedy : But to shew , that as all the Members of a natural Body , being influenced , animated and acted by one and the same vital Spirit , do harmoniously agree , and not thwart one another , in their various Offices and Actions : So the Members of the true Spiritual Body , being all influenced , animated , acted , moved , led and guided by the one Spirit of Life and Truth , do harmoniously agree , and sweetly consent together , in the performing of their several Offices , according to the divers Gifts , and various Measures that they have received thereof . Which cuts off , and wholly excludes that pernicious Plea , which the dividing Enemy hath furnished some with , for maintaining Disagreement , Discord , and opposite Senses , Judgments and Practices , amongst the Members of the same Body , in and about the same Religious Performances . Had the Adversaries rightly considered this , they would not perhaps have thought there had been any inconsistency between the Church of Christ seeing , hearing , speaking with the same Eye , Ear , Mouth ; and particular Members being made by God an Eye , Ear , or Mouth , at such seasons , or such occasions , and for such Services , as he sees meet to use them in : For there is no inconsistency in this at all ; though they labour to make one , by a carnal way of Reasoning , not suitable to the nature of Spiritual Senses . For though they say , In the first of these Cases , they all seem to hear for themselves ; in the latter , some hear immediately , and some secondarily ; and that the first hear not only for themselves , but for others also , the second only for themselves by others : They err , not knowing the Mystery of true Spiritual Hearing . For in the true Church All ( whose Ear the Lord hath truly opened , and who attentively listen to his Voice , hear for themselves , and that immediately , by the Spiritual Ear which God hath opened in them , at the same time that , with the outward Ear , they hear the Testimony of Truth sounded forth , by the Spirit of Truth , through any Instrument unto them . But , Oh! the darkness that comes over those , who give scope and liberty to their minds to rove , and range in the way of carnal Reasoning , about the things of God , which are , and only can be , Spiritually discerned , by them that wait in the Light. Let us know , say the Adversaries here , what Member is this Eye that we must see by , and what Member is this Ear that we must hear by , and what Member is this Mouth that we must speak by , in those things that relate to Christ and his Church , that so we may not be imposed upon by such as may pretend to be that Eye , that Ear and Mouth , and are not . Rep. This looks too like that impertinent Curiosity , which drew from the Apostle the Rebuke of [ thou Fool ] to him that asked , How are the Dead raised up ? and with what Bodies do they come ? 1 Cor. 15.35 , 36. The Adversaries here bewray an Imagination , that some particular Members are determinately appointed to the constant , and continual performance , and execution of those Offices of Eye , Ear , Mouth , &c. to and for the Body . And they seem to expect we should describe those Persons to them by name , or other outward Character . But how carnally minded must they be , that could conceive so strange an Imagination ! They bid us let them know that , which none but God knows . For as no Member can be rightly a Mouth to the rest , but that which God makes so , by speaking through it to the rest , and that only at such times as it is so made use of by God : So none but God knows what Member he will make use of , as a Mouth to speak his mind by . But as all the Members wait upon God , in their own respective measures of the heavenly Gift in themselves , all are in their proper places , ready to be ordered and disposed of by the Lord to whatsoever Office in , or Service for the Body , he shall see meet to use them in . And every one thus truly waiting , in that which gives a true discerning , none such can be imposed upon by any false Pretender . Hence it is , that when any of these Adversaries ( that are gone out of the Unity , into a separation inwardly in Spirit , and outwardly in Meetings also , from Friends ) thrust into our Meetings , and take upon them to be a Mouth , either from God to the Assembly , by Preaching , or from the Assembly to God , by Prayer ; they are savoured , felt , feen and known to be but false Pretenders ; and as such rejected and denied by Friends . But is it not strange blindness in them , to Cavil at the Expression of a Member being made a Mouth by God to the rest of the Members ; when it is plain matter of Fact , that divers of themselves pretend to that Office , of being a Mouth to or from the Assembly , and on that pretence obtrude and impose their Preaching and Praying on Friends ! Does not this shew they are devoted to Cavilling ? They say , in their 31 page , Will he leave us to depend , and not certainly tell us what on ? Rep. By this they would insinuate , that the Author of the Book they pretend to Answer , would have some of the Members depend upon others . Yet they immediately add , He doth not intend that sure . But if they really believe he doth not intend that , why would they suggest that he doth so intend , by saying , will he have us to depend , and not certainly tell us what on ? when it is certain he had certainly and expresly told , what all God's People ought to depend on , namely , the Guidings of the Spirit of God in themselves , page 9. And indeed , so far are Friends from having , or referring any to , a dependence on any Instrument , through which God at any time spake ; that they have always recommended all to the Grace , and Spirit of God in themselves , ( which says Amen to the Testimony that proceeds from the same Grace and Spirit in another ) that their dependence might be upon God in that ! And had the Adversaries look'd with an indifferent Eye , they might have observed what the Author , of the Book they are so angry at , hath written in the 8th and 9th pages thereof , viz. That the same lowly frame of mind that receives and answers the mind of the Spirit of the Lord in a Man's self , will receive and have Unity with the mind of the same Spirit through another , and the reason is plain ; because the same self evidencing Power and virtue that ariseth from the measure of the Spirit of Truth in one self , and that convinceth a Man in his own heart , doth also attend the discovery of the mind of the same Spirit , when delivered by another . They speak of the Church that is perfectly redeemed , &c. But this , say they , is that Church that is hid from the World. Rep. By this they would make as if Christ had two Churches , one hid from the World , and another known to the World. But is the Church ( or was it ever ) known to the World ? Was not his Church always hid from the World ? Can the Church of Christ be seen but by a Spiritual Eye ? And hath the World that Eye to see her with ? In their 32 page , they say , Why do you impose upon your Brethren ? Rep. The Insinuation is false and malicious . Friends impose not upon any . But what God hath manifested as his mind unto us , for the Service and good of his Church , that in his Fear we practice our selves , and that we have recommended to others . When some have said , they saw not the Service of it , such have been exhorted , and desired , to wait upon God in the measure of his Light , Grace and Spirit manifested in themselves , that thereby they might come to a Sight and ●ense thereof , and have Unity with their Brethren therein ; and in the mean time to be quiet , and not oppose those things , which their Brethren were conscientiously concerned in , and which they themselves confessed that they had not a sight , whether the things so recommended , were of God or not . But instead of taking this good Counsel , some Factious Spirits amongst them , set themselves to obstruct and hinder Friends from proceeding , in the way which the Lord had led them into ; working against Friends , at first , in a more hidden manner , by sly Insinuations and evil Surmises secretly conveyed from House to House , among such as were weak of Vnderstanding , or but young in the Convincement and knowledge of Truth , or under some discontent of mind , or such as wanted a broader way than Truth allows . These they smoothly and craftily insinuated themselves into , entertained them with Stories and false Reports against this , that and the other Friend , labouring to perswade them that such sought to set up a Lordly Dominion over them to make themselves Rulers of the Church , and bring others in subjection under them : Than which , nothing could be more false . But after that those wicked Agents had , by these and such like ungodly Courses , beguiled many , and formed to themselves ( as they thought ) a sufficient party in divers parts of the Nation ; they then brake forth into open Opposition , gain-saying , withstanding and disturbing Friends in the practice of those things , which friends were convinced of , and satisfied the Lord had led them into , and owned them in ; calling them ( in scorn and derision ) by the reproachful and despightful Terms of Canons , Constitutions , Decrees , Mens-Inventions , Human Traditions , Popish-Prescriptions , Edicts , Orders , Bulls , &c. And when Friends , seeing them thus run out from Truth , and bandying together against Truth , could no longer receive their Testimonies in our publick Meetings , as Preachers amongst us , but were necessitated to shew some open dislike thereof ; then did the Adversaries impose their Preaching and Praying upon Friends , requiring Friends to bow in Conformity to their Prayers , and that not only before and without , but even against and contrary to Conviction and Perswasion , ( for Friends gave them to understand that they were convinced and satisfied in their Judgments and Consciences , that they , being gone from the Spirit of Truth and Gospel of Peace , ought not to be owned as Ministers thereof . ) Nay , to that height did the Adversaries proceed , in obtruding their Ministry upon Friends , that ( in some places , where they had gotten strength , by Numbers , sufficient to carry on their evil Designs , ) they imposed Conformity to their own Ministry , under an outward Penalty , and that no less than a being excluded from , debarred and deprived of the use of their publick Meeting-places , in which the Friends , so deprived , had , and have , a true Right and legal Property . Nor did they only threaten this , but were as bad as their words , and did actually shut and keep the Friends out , and refuse them entrance into their own Meeting-places , unless they would first promise to conform . This was Imposition with a witness : And Reding is a witness of this . The Cavils they make in their 34. and 35. pages , on occasion of the Differences mentioned , Rom. 14. about Observation of Meats and Days , are very trivial . They do not prove that the Instances of abstaining from Meats , and observing Days , are Parallels to those parts of Church-Discipline , which they fight so much against . They confess indeed , that the instance of Meats , Rom. 14. is an Instance of Weakness ; but they urge , that the Apostle's Advice was , that those weak ones , notwithstanding their weakness , should be received . Rep. We agree with the Apostle's Advice , and have testified our Consent thereto by our Practice : For so long as the Adversaries kept within the bounds of weakness only , alleadging want of sight , their weakness was born with , and they were received by Friends , in hopes that , if they waited humbly and honestly upon the Lord , he would open their understandings , and give them a sight , and satisfaction concerning the things they then doubted about . But when , not content with this bearing and forbearing , they grew heady and quarrelsome , and sought , by running into jangling disputations , to stagger others , and spread the Leaven of their own doubts , that by making others as doubtful as themselves , they might raise a party , to carry on strife and contention by ; they then put themselves out of the Protection of the Apostle's Advise . For as he advised , to receive him that is weak in the Faith ; so he also cautioned not to receive him to doubtful Disputations . He was to be received , if he would be quiet , and his weakness to be born with ; but not if he would be alwayes wrangling , and raising Dissentions in the Church . So far as the cases will admit Comparison , the Adversaries Representative was that weak one , who could not eat what his Brethren could . He , through weakness , could not eat : They , through weakness ( of sight ) could not see what their Brethren saw , could not Act as their Brethren did ; at least pretended so . Now , as the Apostle gave a cautionary Let not , to him that was strong ; Let not him that eateth dispise him that eateth not , Rom. 14.3 . ( which Friends observed towards the Adversaries , not despising nor rejecting them for their apparent weakness , but bearing with them , and carrying themselves tenderly towards them : So he gave another cautionary Let not , to him that was weak ( by whom , as I noted , the Adversaries are here represented ) Let not him that eateth not , judge him that eateth . Had the Adversaries observed this Caution 〈◊〉 the Apostle , and not judged their Brethren in and for those things , which their Brethren saw to be their Duty , and were satisfied and conscientiously concerned in ( and which themselves acknowledged they had not a clear sight of ) the Difference in probability had not come to what it now is . But the Adversaries forgeting the Apostles Counsel , fell to judge their Brethren , and that in the most provoking and reflecting manner , under the names of Apostates , Innovators , Idolaters , Setters up of lordly Dominion , Vsurpers of Authority over Conscience , Introducers of Popery , &c. and that in Print ; And never gave over , till they run themselves by open war , into that open Separation , in which they now stand . In their 35th page , they fall again upon their old odd Notion of making Circumstantial and Shadowy to signifie the same thing . Rep. Herein they err , for want of considering the proper nature of each . Every Shadow is a Representation of some particular Substance , which it is a shadow of . But every Circumstance is not Representative . There are Circumstances of Time , Place , Gesture , &c. belonging to every Action : yet is not every such Circumstance a Representation of some particular Substance . Therefore every Circumstance is not a Shadow . In meeting together to worship God , there must be a time to meet at , a Place to meet in . These are Circumstantial to the worship for which the Meeting is , but they are not Shadows . If the Adversaries think they are , pray let them assign the particular Substances of which they are Shadows , and which , as Shadows , they represent . But for ought I see , they make all things to be Shadows , but the Spirit of God. For they say , they must be Substance or Shadow ; and they admit nothing to be Substance , but that which leads into all Truth ; and they add ▪ The Substance is God's holy Spirit , that only and alone guides into all Truth . So that , after their Shadowy way of Reasoning , the Gospel Dispensation should be as Shadowy as the Legal was , or else there must be no external Appearance of Worship under the Gospel . And yet they acknowledge , There should be no Shadows in Christ's Government . But , if there should be no Shadows in Christ's Government , and all External Acts of Worship ( according to their notion ) are but Shadowy ; then there must be no external Appearance , or Acts of Worship under Christ's Government . And what then would this shadowy , shady , dark Reasoning of theirs bring things to ! I wish the more single-hearted of their beguiled Proselites would well observe this , and consider what Shadows of Christians they have made , or would make them . In like manner , they blunder about the Circumstantial and Essential , puzzling themselves , and their Reader , to no purpose , for want of applying the words Circumstantial and Essential to their respective and proper Relatives for they must relate to something that which is but Circumstantial to one thing , may be Essential to another . Outward Motion , or motion of the outward Members , is Circumstantial to man ; not Essential to his being : for a man may be a man without outward motion . But this outward motion , though it be not Essential to man's Being , yet it is Essential to his Walking , Talking , Eating , &c. For walking , talking , eating , cannot be without some outward motion of the outward Members . As it is thus in Natural , so in Religious Matters . Outward Performances are but Circumstantial , not Essential to Religion , simply considered as in it self , and strictly taken in the abstract . But those very Performances , which are not Essential to Religion it self in that strict fense , may be Essential to the Outward Profession and external Exercise of Religion . And indeed , no outward Profession of Religion can be made , no external Exercise of Religion performed , without the Circumstance of some outward Act or Medium . Which shews that outward Performances , outward Acts or Mediums are Essential to the Being of outward Profession , or Exercise of Relion , though not to Religion it self , in that strict and abstractive sense before mentioned . I write this ( not with respect to any particular Medium , Act , or Performance , but ) in a general way , with respect to every Outward Performance , that relates to the right Exercise of true Religion ; And to check the too confident Conclusion , which the Adversaries over hastily draw th●● whatsoever is not Essential to Religion ( according to their undistinguished sense of Essentials ) is , without more ado , a meer-Shadow . The Author of the Book they pretend to Answer , in his 9th page thereof , having shew'd that the Plea which the Adversaries make , viz. [ I must mind the Spirit of God in my self ] though true in it self , yet ought not to be so applied , as to disregard the Preaching or Writings of Christ's enlightned Servants , because by them applied properly to the Preaching or Writing of false Prophets and Seducers , concluded thus , I say the Doctrine is true , but not exclusively of all external Counsel or direction ; therefore false in application , where men are allowed to have had the fear of God , and the mind of his Spirit , and are not proved to have acted in their own Wills and Wisdom , or without the Guidance of the Spirit of God , about the things of his Church and Kingdom . Here the Adversaries open wide , and a grevious Out cry they make , p. ●7 . &c. Two main Exceptions they take against this . One at the words [ have had the fear of God ] and the other at the words [ are not proved to have acted , &c. ] Against the first , they alledge that such as may have had the fear of God , may now be without it . And , to give a flurt at the Author , they add , As well as himself , who used to have good Arguments , but now wants them . Against the second , they urge , that since every fact must be committed before proved , they may have acted in their own will , and not yet fully proved . Now , that this is a meer empty Cavil , and carping at words only , will appear by the Author 's own words , in the place fore-cited , where he expresly calls the Persons he spake of , Faithful Brethren , and Christ's enlightned Servants . So that it is evident , he used that other way of Speech afterwards upon the Adversaries , Concession , and to bind them the faster , who , how meanly soever they thought of Friends then , allowed them to have had the fear of God , and the mind of his Spirit , &c. and had not proved them to have acted in their own wills , how much soever they slighted them . And it appears the Adversaries understood this to be so worded upon their Concession : for they say , p. 38. If we have allowed any to have had the fear of God , and mind of his Spirit in things offered to us , if that allowance was true ( observe ) it was because we had a divine sense , relish and taste of it in our own Hearts . Rep. If that allowance was true ! it seems then they cannot tell , they have no assurance , whether that allowance was true , or no. How know they then whether the sense , relish , and taste of it , which they say they had in their hearts , was Divine , or no ? For since they say that allowance was because they had a divine sense of it , &c. if the allowance was not true , the sense , which was the Cause of that allowance , will not appear to have been Divine . They add , And are we to go any further for a Proof , that such are wrong , than when the same Evidence comes not along with them ? Rep. Yes sure , they especially , who have so little certainty whether the allowance they gave before was true ; whether the sense in their own hearts , on which that allowance was grounded , was Divine , had need go further for a proof that others are wrong , than their own apprehension that the same Evidence comes not along with them . For how know they , but the same Evidence may come along with them , whom they judge wrong , though it cannot get entrance into their hearts , which are prepossessed with ill will , prejudice and Envy ? Was it not so with some of old , who received , owned , embraced and allowed the Apostle Paul as right , and yet afterward turned against him as wrong ? Where was the fault ? Did not the same Evidence come along with the Apostle , and attend his Ministry , as before ? Or was there no room in their prejudiced mind for the Evidence to enter ? Should not they have gone further then , for a proof that he was wrong , than their sense that the same Evidence came not along with him ? But they say , Can any indifferent man think that all this Smoke can be without Fire ? What , one part all right , and t'other all wrong ; let them think so that can , we cannot . Rep. No , no : All this Smoke is not without Fire ; and that they know full well : for they kindled the Fire . But much of this Smoke is the Smoke of their Torment , who have no rest day nor night ; but are fretting and fuming , making a Pother and Smother , and sending forth one Pamphlet after another , stuft with Falsehoods and Reproaches , to keep the Fire burning , and the Smoke ascending , that if possibly they may darken the sight of some or other , and by that means draw them to their party . Their uneasiness is apparent . Their Separation has not answered their Expectation . They thought to have drove all before them , and with one sweep of their Leader's Tail , to have drawn , at least , the third part of the Stars from Heaven . But the Lord hath disappointed them , blessed be his holy Name . So that though here and there a wandring Star hath fallen in with them ; yet the Stars of the Morning sing together , and the Sons of God shout for joy , feeling their Establishment in the heavenly Power , and their Root in him that lives for ever . From this disappointment of the Adversaries Expectations , and the unsuccesfulness of their Separation to the end they proposed , I take it to be , that they still hover at the Meetings of Friends , to tinck off ( if they can ) unsensible and unwary Ones , and gain some addition to their separate Party . When they say , We cannot think one part all right , and t'other all wrong , they seem to acknowledge that themselves are not right . But if they are really sensible that they are not right , why do they not own wherein they are wrong , and condemn themselves therein , that ( Repenting ) they may come to be right ? If they can't think the other Part all wrong ; why did they so revile and reproach them , and that publickly in Print , as Apostates , Innovators , Idolaters , setters up of Idols and Images , Introducers of Popery , and the like ? And why did they divide and separate from them . Their 38th page gives a Quotation , pickt out of the 11th and 12th pages of the Book they pretend to Answer , and serves them to Cavil at to the end of their Pamphlet , which is half a dozen Leaves , or more . But because their Answer thereto is not so much Argumentative as a Declamatory Harangue , and the matter thereof , for the most part , a Repetition of what they have said , and I replied to , before ; interlarded thick with the old Terms [ Imposition , Circumstantial , Ceremonial , Shadowy , bringing in New things , forcing new things , &c. ] I shall not think my self obliged to imitate their Prolixity , by following them step by step , over each particular again ; but touching on some Passages in the way , draw this Discourse towards a Conclusion . First , As to the Quotaion they give , they give it not fairly : for connecting many Particulars together , they take liberty to leave out what they please . They begin it thus ; He saith , The Enemy is at work to scatter the minds of Friends , by those loose Pleas , as leave me to my Freedom , and to the Grace of God in my self , &c. Rep. Here they leave out the first part of that Plea , which the Author there impleads , and which proves the loose mind of them that so make it . For the Author's words lie , thus , The Enemy is at work to scatter the minds of Friends , by that loose Plea , What hast thou to do with me ? Leave me , &c. This shews that that End of making this Plea , which the Author there taxes as loose , was to unbody , to disjoynt , dismember , dissociate , disunite Friends , so as that one should have nothing to do with another , even in those things wherein the Testimony of Truth , common to all that profess Truth lies , as will appear by the following Lines . They go on with their Quotation thus , The plain Consequence is to go from autient Principles and Practices , as there set down . This they say , He saith , and they set this down in manner and Character with the rest of the Quotation , just as if he had said it indeed ; whereas his own words are thus , — This Proposition and Expression ( namely , What hast thou to do with me , &c. ) as now understood and alleadged , is a Deviation from , and a Perversion of the antient Principle of Truth ; for this is the plain consequence of this Plea , if any one ( especially if they are but lately convinced ) shall say , I see no Evil in paying Tithes to the Hireling-Priest , &c. I see no Evil in Marrying by the Priest , &c. I see no Evil in declining a publick Testimony in suffering Times , or hiding in times of Persecution , &c. I see no Evil in worshipping and respecting the persons of Men , &c. I see no Evil in keeping my Shop shut upon the World's Holy-days and Mass-days , as they call them , &c. All this ( and more ) they omitted . When as these are instances of the looseness of the Plea ; and which the Adver , saries knew to be too true to be denied , and therefore chose rather to conceal , than revive by bringing them forth . Nay , the Author there shewed the Consequence of this Plea extended further , that he who should plead it in the Cases before instanced , might go on to say to Friends , Since your Testimony is against Imposition , and for leaving every one to the measure of the Grace which God hath given him , not only , no Man hath power to reprove or judge me , but I may be as good a Friend as any of you , according to my measure . This also they left out . And then , having pieced up the rest of the Quotation as they pleased , they give no direct Answer to it . They neither grant that the things there instanced are Evil , as paying Ththes , Marrying by the Priest , hiding in times of Persecution , &c. ( Lest perhaps they should stumble those of their Party who expect that Liberty . ) Nor do they deny that those , and such like , things have been , or may be , defended , by some under that Plea , What hast thou to do with me ? Leave me to my Freedom , &c. But instead of this , they begin their long Answer thus , The ground of this great Noise and Clamour , was not agoing from antient Principles or Practices , but your bringing in new things , &c. Rep. They say not right . The ground of this great Noise and Clamour was , their going from the antient Fundamental Principle of all true Principles and Practices , the Light. They went from the Light of Christ in themselves , and so became Darkned : Then complained they wanted sight , they could not see the Service proposed in the things recommended . But as little sight as they had , they could see to oppose and obstruct their Brethren , and not suffer them quietly to proceed in that , which they saw and were satisfied was their Duty . They could see to wrangle , jangle , cavil , contend and disturb their Brethren with ungodly Speeches , and very unruly and turbulent Behaviour , whereby they raised a great Noise and Clamour . They say , they ought to be left to the Grace of God in this matter . Rep. To the Grace of God they were left in this , and every matter . But their ungodly Speeches , and unchristian Carriage , shewed , though they were left to the Grace of God , they were not led by it . They say in page 39. If nothing that is simply Evil or immoral can be charged upon your Brethren , will you to make way for Lordship and Dominion over your Brethren , joyn with the Prophane and Professors against them and Truth . Rep. No : But the Adversaries , by their own practice , confirming the charge of Professors and Profane against the Light , have thereby joyned with both against Friends and Truth . And their saying here , If nothing that is simply Evil or Immorral can be charged upon your Brethren , &c. Shews how easy and willing they are to admit this Plea [ of being left to their Freedom , &c. ] For a defence or Cover for those , or the like Evils before instanced , as paying the Priest Tithes , Marrying by a Priest , &c. Which though not such things as in the Eye of the World are accounted simply Evil or Immoral , are in the Eye of Truth certainly Evil , and inconsistent with our principle . Again , they say , If you deny that you impose , why are not you quiet ? Rep. Friends are quiet . But the Adversaries are not , will not be quiet ; but in a restless , tossed , turbulent mind and Spirit , are continually devising deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the Land. They could not be quiet till they were separated ; they will not be quiet now they are separated : but ever and anon some or other of them come to Friends Meetings , to disquiet Friends there . And not satisfied with that neither , they scatter abroad their dirty Books , stuft with evil Surmises , sly Insinuations , envious Reflections , and foul Falsehoods ; like those of Old , whom the Prophet compared to the troubled Sea , when it cannot rest , whose Waters cast up Mire and Dirt , Isa. 27.20 . to whom there is no peace , ver . 21. Therefore 't is no wonder they are not quiet , but as raging Waves of the Sea , are ever and anon foaming out their own shame , like those whom Iude complained of , vers . 13. Nay , so averse are they to Quietness , that rather than want pretence for Strife , they have pickt up a Book that was written some Nine or Ten years ago , to make an occasion for a new Qarrel , or to revive the Old. They say , page 4 , You must bring those things in , about which the Difference is , either as Terms of Communion , or not . ( It seems , as often as they have charged us with bringing those things in as Terms of Communion , they do not yet know whether we have done so , or not . ) If , say they , you did not bring them in as Terms of Communion , then why do you criminate your Brethren as evil Doers , whilst you have nothing against them , but refusing Compliance with your Opinions . Rep. Not to enumerate all we have against them , ( who , in a subdolous way , still call themselves our Brethren , though they are gone from the true Brotherhood , that under that Name they might do us the greater mischief , ) we have more against them , than their refusing Compliance with what they scornfully call our Opinions ; namely , the Troubles and Disturbances they have raised in the Church , by their unruly , violent and turbulent Oppositions ; the Dissention and Divisions they have caused thereby ; the Rent and Breach they have made ; the open War they have begun , and carried on ; the Separation they have run into ; the wicked , envious Books they have Printed , to expose them they hipocritically call their Brethren , and , together with them ; the Truth they profess , to the Scorn Contempt and Rage of the wicked ; in all which they are Evil-Doers . And so they also are in suggesting , that Friends brought in those things , about which ( they say ) the Difference is , as Terms of Communion . For that is false . We brought not in any things as Terms of Communion . The holy God , who is the Author of our Communion with himself , and with one another , hath appointed and fixed the Terms of this Communion , viz. Walking in the Light , as he is in the Light , 1 Iohn 1.7 . But I would gladly see what the Adversaries will assign for the Terms of their Communion : for where I have had any opportunity of observing them , or understanding their ways , I could never yet find or learn , that they excluded any from Communion with them , who would go to their separate Meetings , and rail against Friends . Sure I am , whoever shall observe , with an indifferent Eye , what they lick up , and whom they give the hand of Fellowship to , will find no cause to suppose the Terms of their Communion to be , walking in the Light. They say , We are sure it is more according to Truth , for you to omit the doing of what you may believe is good in this Sense , than for others to receive what they believe is wrong . And this they speak , in order ( as they pretend ) to discontinue the Difference . Rep. They state not the Case fairly on either hand : for what they would have us omit , they call only what we may believe is good ; whereas they are not ignorant , that we have declared we believe those things to be , not only good , but required by God of us as our Duty . On the other hand , when they speak of others not receiving them , they call it what they believe is wrong ; whereas they have not adventured to charge those things with being positively wrong , but have alleadged , they did not see the Service of them ; or , as some of their Party have elsewhere stated it , they had great cause to be jealous , several things proposed were not from Heaven , but of Man : for in their Birth into the Church , they seemed not to bear the heavenly Image . There is some ods , surely , between Belief and Iealousy , between Believing a thing to be wrong , and having a jealousy that it was not from Heaven ; but of Man ; especially when that Jealousy hath no greater ground than a seeming not to bear the havenly Image . Thus they craftily extenuate on the one hand , and aggravate on the other . But when each comes to be rightly stated , and set on its true bottom , it will appear to be no more according to Truth , for Friends to omit , the doing of that which they believe to be ( not only good , but ) their required Duty , than for the Adversaries to receive what they did not see the Service of , but were jealous was of Man , because it seemed not to bear the heavenly Image . However , sure I am , it had been more according to Truth , for the Adversaries to have been Quiet , and not run headily against what ; through want of sight and true Sense , they were jealous of ; than either for them to have made the Opposition , Disturbance , Division and Separation they have made . Or for Friends to have omitted the doing that good , which they believed the Lord required of them , and felt him by his Spirit leading them into , and by his good presence owning them in . And indeed , a readier way could hardly be proposed , for obstructing all Duty in any Society , than to injoyn those , who believe it to be their Duty , to omit the doing of it , because others are jealous of it . However , their here proposing that Friends should omit the doing of what they believe is good , &c. as a way or means to discontinue the Difference , shews that ( notwithstanding their loud Clamours , and reiterated Outcries against Friends for Imposition , Imposition , Imposition : ) it was not Friends imposing upon them , that gave the occasion of the Difference : but it was Friends refusing to be imposed upon by them , to omit the doing of their believed Duty , and to be driven , by their impetuous Opposition , out of the practice of those things , which they believed were required of them . It was not enough to the Adversaries , not to be imposed on themselves : but they must have us omit the doing of what we believed to be good , and our Duty to do . Was not this Imposition on their parts , who so often cry out of being imposed upon ! What they say in their 41 page , with Allusion to the building of Babel of Old , and Confusion of Tongues that ensued therupon , needs no more , in this place , than their own Application there of to themselves : for they deliver it in the first Person Plural [ WE . ] Was not We of one Language ( say they ) whilst We truly travelled , &c. But when We found Shinar a Plain , and took up Our dwelling there in the likeness of Truth , then did not We , as others before Us , begin to build , &c. Now this they appropriate to themselves by the Advertisement they have given at the end of their Preface to the Reader , where , after they have said , Where the Term You is found in the following Discourse , we intend the Author and those of his mind ; they add , And as the Term We is also used , it may be understood in respect to those of the same mind with the Author of this ( that is their ) Book . Let them take it therefore to themselves , to whom ( if to any ) it of right belongs . For they have been long hunting for a Plain ( a place of more Room , Scope , and Liberty ; finding Truth 's way too strait and narrow for them ) and at length have found one , where they have taken up their Dwelling , in but the likeness of Truth , if in that . They have built up a Separation , which they designed for a lofty Tower , to preserve them from what they were in no danger of , In position from those they call their Brethren . How they have sped in their undertaking , may in some measure be gathered by this , that some of their Fellow-Builders in that work , have since submitted to the Ministry of the Parish-Priests ( to go no further . ) So that , as those Babel Builders of old met with that they shunn'd , viz. to be scattered abroad , &c. Gen. 11.4 , 8. So these , to avoid an imagined Danger , of Imposition from their Brethren , have betook themselves to the Parish Priests , where Imposition is avowed . How far they are divided in Language , while some are mumbling their Mattins in the old Mass-Houses , I leave themselves to consider . But that they do agree , and are one in Spirit ( as well such of them as are already gone off to the Priest , as such as are not yet , ) to write against the Innocent , to Reproach , Revile , Raile at , Slander , and wickedly bely Friends , a late scurrilous Book of Francis Bugg's , and another of Iohn Pennyman's , compared with others written by other of the Adversaries , plainly shew . Which Books came out so near in time with that I am now Replying to , as if there had been an Intelligence held , and Correspondence carried on , between the respective Authors . They say , page 41 , For you to call such Pleas as those , Leave me to the Grace of God , and to the Spirit of Truth , loose Pleas , &c. We look upon it as of dangerous Consequence ; what though some may abuse them , will you take them away , and with them freedom of Speech ? Rep. We do not call those Pleas loo●e , with respect to the Pleas themselves ( which we acknowledge are sound and good : ) but with respect to the Spirit by which , and the end to which , those Pleas have been pleaded by the Adversaries ; which was by a loose Spirit , in order to let up Looseness without controul . Therefore we take not away the Pleas ; but the abuse of them . Nor do we take away freedom of Speech , but in Truth 's Authority reprove that exorbitant Liberty of Rayling at , Reviling and Reproaching Friends , and exposing Truth to the Worlds contempt and scorn , under pretence of freedom of Speech . In page 42 , they ask , Why may not you be cautioned to beware of Formality ? Rep. We are often cautioned so ; as they that frequent our Meetings know . And when that Caution is given in the love of God , it is in the same love received . But when , under pretence of Cautioning against Formality , some ( not distinguishing between Formality and Form ) endeavour to overturn , subvert and take away all Form and Order from the Church of Christ , we cannot receive , but reject , such Cautions and Cautioners , as knowing that they come not from , nor serve . the God of Order ; but that Spirit which would bring all into disorder and Confusion . In page 43 , they say , Pray let us know why Truth 's Testimonies may not be allowed and pass current , where the Life and Conversation is suitable . Rep. Truths Testimonies are allowed , and do pass currant among Truth 's Followers . But the Adversaries should have explained what they mean by Truth 's Testimonies . For those Doctrinal Principles , delivered of old by Truth himself , and afterwards by his inspired Followers , and Recorded in the Scriptures of Truth , are Truth 's Testimonies , especially as they are taken up and used by the same Spirit that gave them forth . And the Testimonies that proceed from the Spirit of Truth , speaking through any of his Servants in our Meetings , or elsewhere , at this day , are the Testimonies of Truth also . And all these are allowed , and pass current amongst Friends . But if the Adversaries mean , by Truth 's Testimonies , their own Testimonies , those Testimonies that they bring , and thrust upon Friends in our Meetings , and ask why those Testimonies may not be allowed and pass currant ; the Answer is , because those Testimonies are not Truth 's Testimonies , ( how like soever they may seem to be , ) neither come they in Truth 's way . They proceed not from the Spirit of Truth , but from that Spirit that Fights against Truth ; a Spirit of Dissention , Division , Disunion and Separation from Friends in Truth . In page 45. they say , Might not a little Charity help all this , could you look upon such as trouble you to be Conscientious . Again , Certainly you cannot think that all is wrong that are dissatisfied , &c. We would perswade you better , by assuring , that some are right by being sincere . Rep. They who have known these Troubles throughly , and have seen and observed their manner of Troubling , and in what Spirit they have done it , had need have more than a little Charity , to make them look on such to be Conscientious . Was their publishing Friends in Print to be Apostates , Innovators , Setters up of Images , Introducers of Popery , Idolaters , &c. An Argument that they were Conscientious ? Was their exposing Truth and Friends , by their printed Pamphlets , to the Scorn , Contempt and Derision of the Wicked , and rendring them ( as much as in them lay ) obnoxious to the Government , a token of their being Conscientious ? Was their shutting Friends out of their Meting-Houses , wherein they had a rightful Interest and Propriety , exposing antient and tender Bodies , and some their nearest Relations , to all Extremities of Weather , and that for divers years together ( as at Reding , and elsewhere ) an Effect of their being Conscientious ? O barbaroas Consciences ! O conscientious Barbarism ! where shall a Parallel to this be found , unless in that which Christ foretold his Disciples , Iohn 16.2 . They shall put you out of the Synagogues : yea , the time cometh , that whosoever killeth you will think that he doth God Service . How far these conscientious Troublers have answered this Prophecy , let themselves and others consider . Nay , have they not been worse than those forespoken of by Christ ? For they were open Enemies ; these feigned Friends and false Brethren . Now whereas they say , Certainly you can not think that all is wrong that are dissatisfied with those new things brought in , at least , as made Terms of Communion . I Reply , We do not think all that are so dissatisfied equally wrong : for we are sensible those Troublers have , by slanderous Suggestions and false Insinuations , beguiled and betrayed some ; whose Recovery out of the Snare , in which those Troublers have taken them , we earnestly desire and travel for . But though we do not think all alike wrong ; yet we do think and know that all who think new things are brought in and made Terms of Cummunion with Friends , are wrong in thinking so , whatever they are otherwise . And whereas they say , They would perswade us better , by assuring that some are right by being sincere . I Reply ; If they are , they must not be any of those Troublers , who notwithstanding they have separate Meetings of their own , to which they have withdrawn , and chosen to meet apart ( as some of themselves have elsewhere exprest it ) do yet frequently thrust in at some of our Meetings , and impose themselves upon Friends for Preachers , as if they did it on purpose to disturb , and to make trouble in our Meetings . Can any thing be more contrary to Sincerity than this ! Is not this an extream degree of Hypocrisie ! Let the Troublers therefore give over their Hypocrisie , and make it appear that they themselves are sincere to what they themselves have chosen , and set up , before they take upon them to give assurance of the sincerity of others . They bid us Remember , They obtrude nothing upon you . Rep. That 's false . Those Troublers obtrude themselves , their Preaching , and their Praying , upon Friends ( which they know , ( having been often told ) Friends cannot receive : ) than which , what worse they could obtrude , I know not . And where they have had strength by numbers , they have obtruded these upon Friends , under the Penalty of being deprived of their Meeting House , if they would not conform to this Imposition . And because Friends could not conform thereunto , those Troublers have actually shut Friends out of their Meeting-Houses , and do yet continue to keep them out ; thereby depriving Friends of their just Right . Therefore when any of those Troublers shall again come to obtrude themselves upon Friends in our Meetings , Let them Remember this . Again , they say , The Lord often spared those that are wrong , for the sakes of those that are right . Rep. We know he hath done so , and we desire he may do so still : but we leave that to him ; who best knows to whom , and how long , to extend that forbearance . But let not the Adversaries abuse God's merciful forbearance , by continuing in the wrong , after that the Lord hath made them sensible that they are wrong . They add , And 't is our Doctrine , Tares should be suffered to grow , rather than destroy Wheat . Rep. And 't is Christ's Doctrine , and his own Exposition of his Parable of the Tares , that the Field , in which they should be suffered to grow , is the World , Mat. 13.38 . This is a good Argument against Persecution , or outward Violence , for Religion's sake . Men ought not to be killed , destroyed , pluckt up , and rooted out of the World , only because they are Tares , or a wrong Seed of the Enemies sowing . But I wish the Adversaries would speak plainly , whether it be their Doctrine that such Tares , called by Christ , The Children of the wicked One , should be suffered to grow in the Church , the Garden of God , after they are discovered , discerned , plainly perceived , and certainly known ( as the Tares in the Parable at the first sight were ) to be Tares . Ah , how would this loose Spirit , that is got up in some , turn Spiritual Zion , the inclosed Garden of God , into a Plowed-Field ! However , it is to be hoped , Their applying the Parable of Tares to themselves , may help to make some others understand them better , than hither to they have done . And their pleading for a Toleration for Tares to grow in the Church ( for of the Church , and its Members , they here treat ; not of the World : ) may give some a further sight of their Design for sheltring Evil , and what they aim at in this Plea , than ever they had before . After they have shewed the utmost of Immoderation in managing the Difference on their own part , they now at length begin to preach Moderation to Others . If , say they , this Difference cannot be ended , — manage it with more Moderation ( they might have added , than themselves have done ) and in that love of God , that it may be shewed the Lord is at hand , to gather different apprehensions into a better Temper . ( They might have added , than Themselves have hitherto been in . ) Rep. But why did they not think of this Moderation , before they published their many scandalous and malicious Books , to the defaming of Truth and Friends to the world , as much as in them lay ? Why did they not preach this Moderation to their own Party at Reding , and other Places , to have gathered them into a better temper ( for a worse they could hardly have been in ) than to keep Friends out of their Meeting-Houses , wherein they had a just and legal Property , and expose them , for divers Years together , to those hardships that Heat and Cold , Rain and Storms of Weather bring ? They , who have done the greatest mischief by their Immoderation that they can , begin now to recommend Moderation to others . And they , who have done their utmost to dishonour the God of Truth and Peace , before the People , by publishing their wicked Books , and setting up their separate Meetings , do now take upon them to exhort Others to Moderation ; Otherwise , say they , you will dishonour the God of Truth and Peace , before the People . Is not this Hyprocrisie in grain . They add , pag. 46. You must agree together quietly , or part friendly , or you are no Preachers of Righteousness , whatever your Principles of Truth may be . Rep. To what end do they propose this now , so long after they have actually parted from us ! They have had their separate Meetings these many years . And more than a year ago , some of them gave us to understand in Print , that they had chosen to meet apart , and had withdrawn . But since they did neither agree quietly with us while together , nor did part Friendly when they withdrew , does it not follow upon them , according to their own words , that They are no Preachers of Righteousness , whatever Principles of Truth they may hold ? They urge the Example of Abraham and Lot , for parting by agreement . But they do not take notice , that that was only a parting of outward Habitations , and that through Necessity , because the place was not large enough to hold them . So that this was not a Religious parting , muchless a parting through Opposition of their Spirits . Yet this was in the Vncircumcised state too : for Circumcision was not instituted till after this . But they would do well to consider , that Lot , who took his Choice , and parted from Abraham the Friend of God , came to great Loss , and suffered deeply thereby . For though , at first remove , he pitched his Tent but towards Sodom , Gen. 13.12 . yet quickly after we find him settled in Sodom , chap. 14.12 . And he had not long been there , before he was made a Captive , and was glad to be rescued by him he had parted from . O that all , that are in danger of being beguiled , betrayed and led away by this Dividing Spirit and its Agents , would consider these things in a Spiritual Application , and beware of Separating from God's Friends ; lest , by the pleasantness of the Plains ( where liberty , freedom , room and scope may be had , to walk at will ) they be allured to pitch their Tents towards mystical Sodom , and by degrees drawn into it ! It follows in their Book , But why cannot you agree together , whilst you own one and the same righteous Principle ? Rep. By this it seems as if owning a Principle , were Terms of their Communion . To own the Principle of Truth , is one thing : to hold it , keep to it and obey it , is another . Many do the one , that do not the other . Many own the Principle of Truth in words , that never came into Obedience to it : and some that have departed from obedience to the Principle , have yet retained a verbal Acknowledgement of it . And of them that have made Profession of the Truth , and afterwards turned their Backs upon it , how few are there that do not own the Principle ! They find fault with something or other in the Society , to make themselves an Out-let , that they may thereby slip out , and shake off the Yoke of Christ , which is as uneasie to the Wrong , as easie to the Right . But they commonly cry up the Principle still . Do not Pennyman , Crisp and Bugg own in words the same righteous Principle still ? Let me turn the Question then upon the Adversaries , and ask them , Why cannot you and those men agree together , whilst you and they own one and the same righteous Principle ? Nay , why cannot you and they agree in other things , as well as in contending against Truth , and writing Books against Friends ? They add , You came out together , have you not done the greater , and cannot you do the less ? That 's strange . Rep. That 's not so strange , as they would make it . Israel of old came out of Egypt together ( and with them a mixt multitude , Exod. 12.38 . or , as in the Margin , a great Mixture . ) But all they that came out together , did not agree to travel on together . No , some grumbled and murmured at the Hardships in the way . Some emulated and repined at the superior Gifts and Graces of their Brethren . Some let in , and cherished Evil Surmises , and false Iealousies concerning their Brethren , as if some of their Brethren took too much upon them , and lifted themselves up above the Congregation , and sought a Principality or Lordly Dominion over the rest , Numb . 16. Thus wrought the subtil Enemy after divers manners , to divide , scatter and turn aside , some after one manner , some after another . Some were swallowed up of the Earth , and perished in their Gain-saying . Some were for making themselves a Captain , ( in opposition to the Captain God had made , ) and for returning again into Egypt , the Land of Darkness out of which they came up together . Others were consumed by the Fire of the Lord , which in hot Indignation brake forth against them . And all the Murmurers fell in the Wilderness . Now all these things ( as the Apostle says ) hapned unto them for Examples : and they are written for our Admonition , 1 Cor. 10.11 . Therefore Murmur not ye , as some of them also Murmured , and were destroyed of the Destroyer , ver . 10. That which remains of the Adversaries Book is mostly a Recapitulation , or contracted Repetition of their foregoing Reasonings , grounded upon a false Hypothesis or Supposition , that Friends would impose new things , as matters of Faith and terms of Communion ; and would bring in blind Obedience , by pressing Conformity before Conviction , and the like : which , I hope , the Reader will find , to his Satisfaction , refuted before . That therefore I may not swell this Book with unnecessary Repetitions , I will only recommend to the Reader 's Observation , what , after all their Outcry against bringing in new things ( as they call them ) the Adversaries themselves grant , in page 48. in these words ; Any Particular , or any Assembly of the Community , may offer what is new , if they sincerely believe it good and Serviceable , without breach of Vnity , or at least of Communion ; but ( say they ) we cannot find to the bringing of new things in , as matters of Faith , or terms of Communion , that any Assembly have any more power than a particular Person . Rep , What Power an Assembly may have more than a particular Person , I list not here to dispute , because I would not ( like them ) pick occasion of Debate and Quarrelling . But since Friends have not offered any of the things , the Adversaries except against under the Notion of new things , as matters of Faith to others , or as terms of Communion ; but have only offered such things as they sincerely believe are good and Serviceable : let it suffice , that Friends have herein done no more , than the Adversaries here grant may be done , by any Particular , or any Assembly of the Community , without breach of Unity or Communion . The Breach therefore of Unity and Communion that now is betwixt them and Friends , must lie , and doth , at the Adversaries Door , who ( by the heady , willful , violent and turbulent Opposition they made , to obstruct and hinder Friends from proceeding on , in the use and practice of those things , which the Friends sincerely believed , and do yet believe , to be good and Serviceable ) have run themselves into open War , and that in Print , against Friends , and into open Division and Separation from Friends . So that it is They have broken themselves off from the Unity , Communion and Society of Friends , both inwardly in Spirit , and outwardly also in Religious Exercises . The Lord ( if it be his good pleasure ) give them yet a clear sight , and true sense of the great Evil , and Mischief they have done against God , his Truth and People ; that in the sense thereof they may be truly humbled , and bowed down before him , and brought to such an honest and sensible Acknowledgment thereof , as may evidence their sincere Repentance , that , through Judgment , they may find Mercy , and obtain Remission from him . THE END . Of the Mistakes committed in Printing , the most material that have been yet observed , are here noted to be Corrected . Others of less moment , as mis-spellings , mis-placing of Letters , or Stops , the Reader is desired to amend in reading . PAge 10. line 21. read is in . pag. 20. line 8. r. reprove . l. 13. for immoral , r. Evil p. 22. l. 33. for not yet , r. nor yet . p. 23. l. 25. after dispensation , make Comm● . p. 40. l. 13. f. present , r. recent . p. 44. l. 1. r. Iohn 6.56 . p. 50. l. 27. r. Peter . p. 52. l. 9. f. of Evil , r. for Evil. p. 63. l. 12. f. prevent , r. pervert .