L'Estrange no papist nor Jesuite discussed in a short discourse between Philo-L'Estrange and Pragmaticus. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1681 Approx. 22 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 10 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A70423 Wing L1328B ESTC R22051 12740328 ocm 12740328 93124 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A70423) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 93124) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 696:5 or 1725:14) L'Estrange no papist nor Jesuite discussed in a short discourse between Philo-L'Estrange and Pragmaticus. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 18 p. Printed for Henry Brome ..., London : 1681. A different work from the one entitled: L'Estrange no papist : in answer to a libel (L1267). Attributed to L'Estrange by Halkett and Laing and by G. Ketchin, Sir Roger L'Estrange, p. 415, though not by Wing (2nd ed.). This item appears at reel 696:5 as Wing L1267A (number cancelled in Wing 2nd ed.), and at reel 1725:14 as Wing L1328B. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng L'Estrange, Roger, -- Sir, 1616-1704. Popish Plot, 1678. Great Britain -- History -- Charles II, 1660-1685. 2007-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-05 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2007-05 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion L'ESTRANGE NO PAPIST NOR JESUITE . Discussed in a short Discourse BETWEEN PHILO-L'ESTRANGE AND PRAGMATICVS . Odi profanum vulgus & arceo . LONDON : Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West End of St Pauls 1681 L'ESTRANGE NO PAPIST NOR JESUITE , & C. PRag . Well and what is become of your L'Estrange now I trow , your great Goliah L'Estrange , and your so much Idolized Diana ? Philo. Very wel ; and is this all you can say ? no less than a Gyant and a Goddess both in a breath ? could not you have said your Gogmagog and your Penthesilea Queen of the Amazons ? it would have done every whit as well , and have made a more noble sound , but that such hard names might have chanced to have stuck in your Throat and choaked you . But pray tell me Mr. Pragmaticus , what makes you so inquisitive after L'Estrange ? I shall shrewdly suspect you are the man that sent out the Hue and Cry after him , unless you give me very good reasons to believe the contrary . Prag . No really not I : But I hear there is one gone out after him , but cannot overtake him , and I cannot imagine why it should not , unless you have sent him away Post upon Pegasus , or swept him into a corner with your Broom amongst your refuse stuffe . T is great pity a man of parts as he is should ly sculking about at this rate , and not dare to show his head . I fancy he looks very pleasantly upon it , and dare swear a Cut of him in the present posture he is in would sell rarely well . Philo. Come leave off your silly scoffs , and witless reproaches , and let us know what is the quarrel you have against L'Estrange . Prag . Quarrel quoth he ? Why he is a Papist , and is not that Quarrel enough in all Conscience ? and you deserve to be called in question , if you take his part , or maintain that he is not . Philo , So , very good still . Then I perceive it is become now as criminal to speak well of L'Estrange , as to drink the Dukes Health , and all because one is supposed to be a Papist , and the other is so . But pray tell me one thing , supposing , though not granting L'Estrange to be a Papist , may not a man for all that speak in his behalf , quatenus an honest man ? Prag . That is a good one : An honest Papist ? who ere heard of that before ? no let me tell you , it is an absurdity , nay an utter impossibility . An honest man perhaps may be a Papist , but a Papist can never be an honest man : and there is the short and the long of the business pithily delivered in few words . Philo. All pith I confess , and no sap . But under favour is this learned and nice distinction your own , or did you borrow it ? Prag . No matter for that . I say still the Papist L'Estrange is a Papist ; and whosoever speaks a good word of him is a Popeling , an Abettor of the Diabolical party , and an ill Common-wealths man. And if you say the Dukes Health may be drank ; I affirm that such an assertion destroys the Liberty of the Subject , as much as denying the Right of Petitioning , and therefore as a filthy , abominable and superstitious thing ought to be laid aside . Philo. Acutely argued . I perceive by this you are a man of parts and perhaps can give me the reason ( which I confess I never heard yet ) why you think L'Estrange is a Papist . Prag . What need of any Reason , when all the Town and Country say so ? sure their words may be taken without any farther Reason . Philo. And therefore you believe him to be a Papist , because he is generally reported one . Prag . Yes marry do I : and every good Christian ought to do the like . Philo. I always thought that every mans own persuasion and practice had made him of this or that Religion , and not anothers saying so : But it seems you think otherwise , and L'Estrange must needs be a Papist , because the people vote him one : then I say , according to your way of arguing , if he be a Papist , they ought to be punished for being accessary to his being such , for it is evident he was none before they talked him into it , What have you to say to this ? Prag . Ay but it is sworn against him ( they say ) that he is one , and sure that will serve your turn . Philo. Indeed this has prevented me from asking you one question , which was , how the Town and Country , which you say generally believe him to be a Papist , should come to know so much , unless he had declared it to them himself , and given a Certificate under his own hand to put the matter out of dispute , for his publick Profession has all along spoken the quite contrary . But now I understand that the ground which you or they have to believe him a Papist , is only because such and such have sworn against him that he is one . Doth their swearing then make him a Papist , whether in his own Opinion he be so really or no ? Prag . I say if they swear he is a Papist , I am bound to believe it : and if they should do as much for you I would endeavor to have you prosecuted . Philo. I grant you that then in the Eye of the Law he is one , for that proceeds and judges according to the Testimony given upon Oath : but this is not the business in Dispute . I would fain know whether any impartial person ( these Oaths that you speak of notwithstanding ) may not , all circumstances well considered , still conclude that L'Estrange is all this while an honest man , and a true Son of the Church of England ? Prag . Not at all : for I tell you , as I said before , if it be given upon Oath that he is a Papist , I dare pawn my life that he is one , and I look upon the testimony to come from such well meaning persons , and true Lovers of the Church , that I dare safely swear the same my self . Philo. Very pretty : but what if two or three well meaning malicious fellows should swear that you was in the Plot , would you therefore be such a fool to belive it , and swear the same , and so e'ne be fairly trussed up for your pains . Prag . Why no , the case is altered then : And I would say , that they were a company of Rascals , that should swear I was in the Plot , when I know no more of it than the child that is unborn : besides , what need I care ? I am clear enough , so long as my Conscience plainly tells me that I have no hand in it : Philo. So , then the Kings Evidence it seems may be a company of Rascals , if they should chance to depose any thing against you , when in the mean time whatsoever is said or sworn against another man passeth with you for an Oracle . This is very fine is it not ? but may not another mans Conscience give these bold swearers the ly as well as yours can do ? and will you not allow poor L'Estrange the liberty to make use of the same Plea which you would your self ? This is very hard measure . Prag . How can that be , when his own Conscience tells him he is a Papist and uses to go to Mass ? if he would but have dealt ingenuously , he might have gone to the Council , and informed against himself , without putting any body else to the trouble of doing it . Philo. And have told them he had a great mind to be hanged , and therefore came to swear that he was up to the Ears in the Plot , though he never so much as dipped his little Finger in it . Pray friend have a care what you say , for if Dr. Oates and the rest should come to know that you should offer to advise any man , Papist or not Papist to do any such thing ; take my word for it , they would certainly fall foul on you for going about to take away their livelyhood . But you said that his Conscience tells him so and so : have his Conscience and you had any late Conference together ( I dare not say Consult , because it is grown a dangerous word ) about these matters , that you are so peremptory in asserting , that it will flatly declare him a Papist ? Prag . Nay , if you go on cavilling at your rate , there is no talking with you : pray tell me one thing , how can his Conscience chuse but tell him that he is a Papist , when it is so evident , that all the world knows it ? Philo. So evident , that all honest understanding men believe the quite contrary . For to say nothing of his constant and approved Loyalty all along to the King , when he had opportunity enough to be otherwise , of his good carriage and reputed honesty , and the notorious ill manners of his Accusers , though this might be a large Theme for Discourse : what rational sober man could ever think him so ill advised , or ( to use the term which some slanderous tongues would fix upon him ) so mad , as by publick Writings , and a Practice corresponding to his private Sentiments , to derive a great and everlasting odium upon himself from two different Parties , seemingly as far distant and opposite as the two Poles , though both concentring in one fatal mischief , the ruin of this poor Church and State ; I say who can suppose that this man , out of his affectionate Love to his King and Country , and Filial Duty to his Mother the Church of England , should expose himself so undauntedly to all the Malice and Spleen that could be vomited out upon him from the mouths of those foul-mouthed Beasts , and yet be all this while a secret favourer of one of these Parties , whilst he pretends to be an open abhorrer of Both ? Prag . A very fine speech , neatly harangued , as if you had a pention for doing it : but I understand never a word on 't : what Parties , what Beasts are these you talk of , or do you but dream ? Philo. To be more plain with you , I mean the Papists on one hand , and the Fanatics on the other . Prag . Oh , now I understand you : and this is wonderful strange you say , that he should be a profest enemy to the Papists , and yet be one himself underhand : I pity your ignorance ; as if the Pope could not grant a Dispensation for all this : why it is ordinarily done in such cases , and I thought you had not been so shallow as not to apprehend it . Philo. You will make a mear changling of his Holiness by and by , if you could but prove that he would grant a Dispensation to have his own throat cut . When the Pope sends Emissaries into England to promote the Catholic Cause , perhaps he may allow them to make use of some Pious Frauds the better to carry on their designs , and when some of them have the honour to die Martyrs at Tyburn with a lye in their mouths , then goes the common cry , that they have the Popes Dispensations and Absolutions to lick all whole again : and granting this to be so , nay and more than that , that L'Estrange had a Dispensation too , what great harm would it do , so long as it is only to preserve his Allegiance and approve himself true and faithful to his Church , King and Country ? Prag . Ay but these confounded Dispensations are of a strange nature , for I have heard that by the strength of one of them a man may come to our Church , wear a Peruque and a Sword by his side , flatter and fawn upon the King , and cry God bless your Majesty , I wish you a long and prosperous Reign , and then Stab or Poison him at the first opportunity , and yet for all at last go to Heaven in a string . And I think on it a little better , might not L'Estrange be a Jesuite and be like enough to do some such like Prank at the long Run ? Philo. What and no Papist ? for I hope I have convinced you that he is not . Prag . Yes for ought I know he may . Philo. And a married man too ? Prag . That does not signifie a rush : for I tell you that plaguy Dispensation , ( would it was hanged ) has done more mischief to this Kingdom than all the French Kings Garlick Eaters would do if they should come over : For they say Priests and Jesuites cannot marry , but I 'le warrant they may upon a good account , and therefore I say still , for ought I know L'Estrange may be a Jesuite , though he is a married man , and no Papist neither as you say : And that is nothing but a blind , a mere blind . Philo. You might as well say a man may be Bred and Born in London , and yet be no English-man . I tell thee plainly , thou art one of those smatter-braind fellows , that catch at all they can hear , and understand things by halves , and get the names of Papist and Jesuite into their mouths , and make a great rumbling noise with them enough to sour all the Milk in the Kingdom , and do not know one syllable what their meaning is . Prag . Not know what their meaning is ? I thank you heartily for that : you might as well say I did not know my own name . No I 'le warrant , when they would have blown up the Parliament-House on the fifth of November , when they stirred up Rebels in Scotland and Ireland , and raised a Civil-War in England , and caused the King to be put to death , and when they Fired the City , and now in this present Plot endeavoured to kill our most Gracious Soveraign , we did not know what their meaning was ; what other meaning could they have but to kick good old Protestanism out of doors , and introduce Popery , and set up a company of Shavelings in the Church ? Uds my life , he that does not at this time of the day see plainly what their meaning is ; I affirm him to be a stark blind Ass , and I stand to it . Philo. These are bloody things you lay to their charge , and perhaps some of them may be true ; and for avoiding contention we will grant them all to be so for once , whether they be or no ; but don't you think the Papists were the Contrivers , the Plotters , or the Authors ( call them which you will ) of the last great Plague among us too ? Prag . Nothing more likely in my judgment ; for what with their Mass mumbling , their Exorcisms , Conjurations , Incense and Holy-water ( God bless us ) they have raised such a pother and sent such a foule stink among us enough to cause an infection to spread not only over the City , but the whole Nation too . Philo. Ingeniously made out , if you had added their Squibs and Crackers too . But this is nothing to the business I was mentioning ; for when I spoke of Papists and Jesuites , I said you did know what the words meant , and if you do , pray do me the favour to tell me . Prag . That I will. Why look you now , if you could get a Painter to draw a company of ill looked fellows with Bags of Gun-power and Pistols in one hand , and Daggers and long Knives in the other , that would be the very Picture of Papists and Jesuites . Philo. But then I suppose it must be writ under them , these are Papists , and these are Jesuites , as they use to write a company of Verses underneath to explain the Frontispiece . Prag . No there would be no need of that ; for I tell you their very looks would betray them and speak what they are . Philo. This is the notion then I perceive you have of them : but you forget to describe their Religion : Do you think they are Christians or no ? Prag . No by my Faith , hang me if I do : for I look upon the Grand Signior or the Great Mogul to be a thousand degrees better Christians than they . Philo. But what if I should prove that they are Christians ? Prag . Do that , and I 'le say as you say . Philo. All proof would be needless to a man of understanding : But first , I 'le take it for granted that ours is but a Reformed Church ; and wherever there is a Reformation , there must be supposed some Errors and Abuses which were to be Reformed . Now the●e Errors and Abuses were and are still in the Church of Rome , which no more hinder it from being a Christian Church ( though grosly corrupted ) than a company of Boils and Sores should make you cease to be a man ( though an infirm one ) The case then is thus ; should some of these Boils and Botches , which I will suppose to be in your Body , be cured and done away , that part which had them may be said to be whole again : so our Church of England being but part of the Catholic Church was once infected with those abominable impurities and foul Diseases the Church of Rome now labours under , from which being cleansed , and purged , it became a pure Church , sound and healthful , whilst the Church of Rome remains tainted at this day . And so you your self being ( as you would make me believe you are ) a true Protestant , are neither better nor worse than ( be not started at the word ) a Reformed Papist by derivation from your Ancestours . This I hope will convince you that the Papists are neither Dogs nor Cats , Wolves , Dragons , nor fiery Serpents , but men like you and I , and Christians too , but not so good as they ought to be , nor as it is wished they were . Prag . This somthing gravels me if it be true : but what is all this to the proving L'Estrange no Papist ? so long as people write and talk against him and call him Papist , I cannot find in my heart but believe them . Philo. And so some impudent malicious Rascals call him Hang-Dog , and Towzer , &c. and do you therefore think in your Conscience , that he is either a Bull-Dog , Spaniel , Mongrel or the like ? I have not much time to talk with you about this matter , but will only tell you in few words , that L'Estrange is yet a true and sincere Protestant notwithstanding all the trifling Reasons that you or any one else could ever yet bring against him . We are not to make ill conclusions from the present misfortunes of the manner , frame , unreasonable and uncharitable conjectures and surmises , from his absconding for a time , which may be for Reasons best known to himself , and not so fit to be known to his Enemies : but I hope it will not be long ere he will return with a Whip and a Bell to lash these barking Curs , that durst hardly snarl or grin whilst he showed his Face . T is sure there was never a more impudent and brazen-faced Age , than this we live in , when the best men shall be aspersed with foulest Calumnies , and the best Protestants , the Bishops themselves not passing scot-free , be branded with the odious names of Papists for being zealous for their King and Countries good . It is to be wished that we could once see a Reformation in our manners instead of seeking one continually in our Religion . And then we should let Protestants be Protestants still , and L'Estrange might live quietly without having the imputation of Popery belched out upon him through every poisonous and malicious throat . And so farewel till we meet next time . FINIS .