A fuller answer to Elimas the sorcerer or to the most material part (of a feign'd memoriall) toward the discovery of the Popish Plot, with modest reflections upon a pretended declaration (of the late Dutchess) for charging her religion : prelates ... in a letter addressed to Mr. Thomas Jones by Richard Watson ... / published by Monsieur Maimburg ... Watson, Richard, 1612-1685. 1683 Approx. 164 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 16 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65264 Wing W1090 ESTC R34094 13764098 ocm 13764098 101706 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Popish Plot, 1678. 2003-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-02 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-03 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-03 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A FULLER ANSVVER TO ELIMAS THE SORCERER : OR TO The most Material PART ( of a Feign'd Memoriall ) toward the Discovery OF THE POPISH PLOT , WITH Modest Reflections upon a Pretended Declaration ( of the late DUTCHESS ) for changing her RELIGION . Published by Mounsieur Maimburg , and the Learned Resolutions of divers our ORTHODOX PRELATES . CONCERNING 1. The Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar and Communicating in one kind , or both . 2. Infallibility of the Universal Church . 3. Auricular and a Particular Confession . 4. Prayer for the Dead . In a Letter Addressed to Mr. Thomas Iones . by Dr. Richard Watson , Chaplain to His R. Highness . LONDON , Printed by H. Brugis , for N. Wolf at the seven Stars in New-Gate street . MDCLXXXIII . A Fuller ANSVVER TO ELIMAS the Sorcerer , &c. SIR , IN the last Letter I had from you , ( and the last may it be for ever ) of Iuly 7. 1682. You first acquainted me with Mounsieur Maimburgs History of Calvinisme ; published in several Editions , not long before : I made speedy enquiry after it , the rather , because you told me the Nation and you ( two Aequipollents , doubtless ) had been more beholding , under God , to that Ex-Iesuit ( so you term him ) than to me and my Partners : What Partners you mean , I know not , nor what share I am to have among them , nor of what ; untill you make more plain and publick , what you so kindly have assigned me , Ecce hic sto , vindicandus mea sorti , in Tertullian's Phrase . The Book I have obtain'd from London , and found annexed to it , what you pointed at ; Declaration de Madame la Princesse D'Iork ; by the publication whereof ( for all the other History I am sure you thank him not ) how much you , and your Party , are beholding to that French Gentleman , will very manifestly be made appear , if but in the Second and Third Paragraphs . Ie proteste en la presence de Dieutout puissant , &c. Where her Royal Highness makes most solemn protestation , in the presence of Almighty God , That , since her return into England , not any person in the world , either directly , or indirectly , carried her from our Church , to imbrace the Catholick Religion ; that the grace of her reconcilement ( as they use to call it ) she owed solely to God's mercy ; that she her self durst not believe it any Sequell of her daily Prayers ( in the course of her Devotion ) ever since she had been in France and Flanders , adding . It is very true , That having view'd the Fervour and Devotion among the Catholicks of those Countries , and being sensible of none at all , or very little in her self , from that time , she never ceased to ask of God the grace , that if she were not in the true Religion , she might be before she died . Give me leave , Sir , to be of opinion , till you make it otherwise appear , That this Pious and Prudent Lady , after her own conviction , and choice made , ( if chuse she did ) had so much Charity for her Directors , ( who e're they were ) yea , and for her Chaplaines too , as , when ready to turn her back upon them and their Offices , she would not spit in their faces , as in defiance , with whom and by whom , so many hundred times she had pay'd her Orisons , and made addresses to the Throne of Grace , ( with as much well-tempered Zeal , we thought , though not alike cloud of Incense , and other pompous Ceremonies , as I had observed any where , either in France , or Flanders , ) but rather intercept , as she hoped , with the extended Palmes of both her hands , all false aspersions , and calumnies , that might for her sake be cast upon us , by such opprobrious persons as your self , ( if your very self were not the He , she meant to anticipate ) whose measures are wholly broken , and whose maine design is utterly disappointed , by taking upon her self , what with the danger threatned , you would fain have imputed to us ; but this Passage , Sir , you had no mind to regard , and I cannot blame you for it , being so directly cross to your purpose . The two concealed Bishops , we may be sure , shall not escape the fiercest effects of your rage , if you and your Blood-hounds can trace them out , whom you precondemn unheard , and deftine as the worst of Criminals , to a most severe , a fatal Execution , though , for kind Mounsieur Maimburg's sake , the very Iesuites that lately suffer'd , should conditionally be recall'd to life . Now , Sir , to leave them ( the Bishops I mean ) behind , to answer for themselves , when you can bring 'em to your High Court of Justice , who , you say , Pag. 4 , are condemned persons in Law , though what Law you name not , nor does any of ours , I presume , so deeply Sentence the most Bigot-Papist for his Religion , ( as I think was declared from the Bench , more then once , in the late Tryals ) much less any in our Communion , for private Sentiments , before publick scandal given , and a fair Conviction . I must peremptorily demand of you , ( and I can do no less ) having been so publickly traduced by you , and thereby exposed to the obloquie ( if no worse ) of all true and false Protestants in the three Kingdomes , as publick a retractation of , and plenary satisfaction for the foul injury you have done me ; else , although I may not deny you the indeleble Character of a Priest , I shall impress upon your Name another , of a like aviternall durance , of a Profligate Person , and a most malicious Calumniator . But , Sir , what more yet will be laid to your charge , if that Noble Lady her self be more grosly and impudently defamed then her Chaplaines ? if , notwithstanding those uncertain fluctuations of opinion , agitations of Spirit , cross collision of thoughts , and perhaps , alternate in consistent resolutions , she departed either indeterminate in her Religion , or not altogether so adverse from that her Highness had before Professed , from the first Maturity of her reason and fit capacity to make her choice ? That you may know me to be in earnest , ( with a civil respect praemised to Mounsieur Maimburg's Historicall Narration , and a little suspense made of that credulity you would have us yield to your Prophetick Inspiration , who pretend a foresight of her change , so many years antecedent to it ) I offer two particulars to the serious consideration of the present Age , the feares and jealousies of which flie , too often , swifter then Fame it self with such stories ; and to the judgment of Posterity , that may be diversly mis-informed by the praejudice , or in observance of many that transmit their reports to 'em , which can meet with little opposition , or good Evidence against them , at that distance . The first tender I make , is this , which you will , I hope , allow me to adventure upon my own Reputation , if I add , in verbo Sacerdotis , which I safely can ; That toward the end of my last Quarters waiting in course at White-Hall , her R. H. having been long decumbent in her sickness , and many times in great extremity of torture , ( perhaps , as much of mind , in that distraction , or convulsion of thoughts , as of body ) from the violent assaults and paroxysmes of her Fever , both yielding alike sad accents , if not articulate complaints , and much astonishing us , whose attendance in our stations drew us within notice of it , there being , as it were , an absolute desertion of her little Oratory ; which before , whether her H. were there , or not , us'd to be well frequented by a comfortable Audience , that assisted at our Mattins and Even-Song , which , beside that it pleased God , gave countenance to the Chaplain , in the performance of his Offices , at the houres appointed , I calling to mind the strictness of her Commands formerly , and the steadiness of her personall example , in time of Health , found it necessary for her R. H. to have knowledge of it , in some seasonable intervall of her griefs , assuring my self her Goodness would not take amiss such a dutifull and devout expression of a religious desire she should be daily prayed for by us , when , in that weak condition , she could not present her self before the little Altar she had erected to pray there with us . This I did with that caution as became me in the present circumstances , and committed the care of it to a discreet Lady of her Chamber , who was seldome absent from her Bed-side , desiring her , in the summe of all , to say plainly , That the Chaplain was in this streight , without her H. suddenly found some expedient , either to set open the doores of her Oratory , and read Common-prayer to the painted Wain-Scot ; or keep 'em shut , and read none at all , whereof what sence the Court and City would have , must be left at adventure ; The very next day , when I went into the Privy-Chamber , at the wonted hour , I saw no cause at all either of complaint , or enquiry after her H. pleasure , and new Order , it being appointed before my coming , that the Reading-Desk and Books should be made ready , and when the Bed-Chamber door should be opened , our Common-Prayer should be read at the very entrance thereinto , whither assembled not only a considerable number without the door , and within , such Ladies as were either in immediate attendance , or others priviledged to be there , but her H. personally , as she lay in bed , found , I hope , some comfort and benefit by our Prayers , read in her hearing , wherein , I doubt not but at that time , she joyned in Communion with us , or else would have ordered it otherwise , This course , for ought I remember , continued while her infirme condition could comply with it , throughout my time ; After my dismission , what Method therein was observed , my Reverend Successor in that employment can best report ; But this , on all hands , I believe will easily be yielded ; That her Highnesses Sickness more and more every day prevailing , and consequently the strength of Nature as much decaying , little abatement , in that anxiety , she had , of mind , and little better satisfaction of doubts and scruples , or settlement in Religion , considering her sad condition , can reasonably be supposed ; Whether , in this deplorable state , she might send for her Spirituall Physician , the Ecclesiastick Person mentioned by her , or some other , I can , with assurance , neither affirm , nor deny ; nor will I doubt more , if he came , of her Highnesses patient attention , and submission , to all he said , ( at a time when she wanted somewhat to allay or charm the tumult of her Spirits ) then I do of what a Learned , and well Practised Civilian has sometime told me , That many Testaments are brought in Court , truly Signed by the Testators , in a dying condition , but upon no other account of will , or consent , then to be rid of their importunate Kindred , Allies , or Friends , that they may be free to dispose their Soules to a calm and serene departure out of this unquiet World ; And whether the good Father were sent for or no , very well known it is , how the Ecclesiastikes of that Communion use not to be over-modest , as opportunity may serve , in offering their Assistance to exspiring persons , of what Church , or of what Quality soever , where they may have admission . Which puts me in mind of what happened many years since , at Bruges in Flanders , about the Decease of my Noble Patron , the Lord Hopton , who , on his last fatal day , being taken speechless somewhat early in the morning , and so continuing , to the great grief , and disappointment , of his few Domestiques then about him ; In the afternoon the Reverend Mother , or Lady Prioress , of the English Nunnery , sent a Message , in great haste , to me , that I must needs attend her immediately , at the Grate , as if she had praepared some speciall Cordiall for our good Lord , ( whom she and all her Votaries respected highly ) that would not only recover his Lordships Speech , but renew his Age , or protract his life some years longer ; when I went to know her pleasure , the good Lady told me somewhat to this purpose . That , understanding my Lords condition , she could not be at rest , untill she had finished the great Devotion her whole Monastery had for his Lordship , by recommending two grave Franciscan Fryars to do their last religious Office for him in their way , [ i. e. according to the Rituall of the Roman Church ] ; Whereat I was so much surprized , that I had almost forgot the sedate temper I came to her in , being more prone , upon that her motion , either to smile , or be angry , then to lament the loss , I every hour apprehended , might befall me and my fellow-servants in a Forreign Countrey , by our Lord's Decease ; At length , being somewhat recomposed , I minded her Reverence of what she knew very well , the free converse my Lord had often , in time of Health , with their Fathers and Fryars of any Order , declining no discourse on any points in controversy they could mention to him , in a Calm and Christian way ; how acceptable it had been , on both sides , though neither Party could convince the other ; and how incongruous it would be , after all the aforesaid frankness and plain-dealing , now to give his Lordship the trouble of a faint dispute , if he could have us'd his Tongue , but now he could not , how false I must needs prove to him and to my trust , in permitting such religious Offices to be practised upon him at the point of Death , which he approved not of toward any other person , when in perfect health , and vigour of understanding ; Whereupon the over-courteous Lady , whether satisfied , or no , acquiesced , and retired , as I returned to my languishing good Lord , to perform my last duty at his Bed-side , as his Chaplain , according to the Form or Permission of our Britannike Church . Whereas , had I taken other measures , it , most certainly , would have been reported , That the Lord Hopton , if but by reason of that very ancient Ceremony , their extream Unction , without a word spoken , had died so good a Roman Catholique as the best ; and his surviving Chaplain , ( or Director in Mr. Iones's sense ) had been no other than a Papist in Masquerade , and for his treachery to so noble and so good a Protestant , had deserved no less then present death by his Martial Sentence . But I proceed , To make good my word , and produce my second particular , upon better credit then my own , ( as having it from a person twenty times more interessed in the Court then my self , and far better acquainted with private passages of moment there ; ) When , not only the reports were warm of her R. Highnesses defection from the Religion professed by the Church of England , but that her Father , the Earle of Clarendon , had taken notice of it by Letter , ( the written Copy whereof passed from hand to hand ) in discharge of his paternal duty , I being not over-credulous of such a suddain change , upon popular Rumour , in a Personage so judicious , and deliberate in all her actions , to obtain a certainty of the Truth , for my private satisfaction , ( if no more ) writ a Letter upon that Subject , to a very sage and grave Person , my most worthy friend at Court , from whom I receiv'd this in Answer , or to this effect . That her R. H. ( when this fierce conflict of Soul and Body was almost finished ) when she must needs be sensible of the few houres or minutes she had to live , and fewer hopes , but by some extraordinary divine assistance , to hold the encounter unto the end , like a good Christian Lady , desired to have her last viaticum praepared for her , and like a persevering Member of our Church , appointed it to be administred , expresly by the hand of the Bishop of Oxford , that then was , who , by what impediment , or unhappy accident , was not expresly writ me , came too late , when , if the doors were not shut , the Keepers of the house were trembling , the Grinders ceasing , and those that had been looking out of the windows were darkened ; And this Daughter of Musick being brought low , her desire failed , because she was going to her long home , where I hope her divine Manna hath never failed , and her coelestiall , instead of her sacramentall , Cup hath overflowed , beyond the satisfaction of her thirsty Soul , to her eternal joy and ineffable delight in the God of her Salvation . The Testimony of my courteous Correspondent would be unquaestionable , were his Name known , which I will not publish , having not askt his leave , but take any censure , to be made of what he writes , upon my self . The truth of all , or high probability ( without the credit and veracity of which witness ) will , I doubt not , be rationally argued from what here I mean shall follow . Now , Mr. Iones , after two such unexceptionable Evidences , in your own expression , let you and I consider , laying aside all praejudice against Directors , or Confessors , what is reasonable for us to believe of our Deceased Dutchess ; Was all this , think you , a piece of Pageantry her R. H. acted , or exposed to the view of the world , in the very last Scene of her life ? But Mounsieur Maimburg Prints it , as is supposed , from her own hand ; I will believe it so far , when I see , and know the Originall ; but I will not then believe her R. H. persisted in the sense of it to her last hour , inferring rather from what I have here related , That she retracted the said writing in fact , which perhaps , f●r reasons best known to her self , if not because of her infirmity , her H. neither declared it by word of mouth , nor signed any such Retractation with her hand ; So that Mounsieur Maimburg may boast , as you say , of a Proselyte in guilded Paper , and you charge me , with the Party you mean , to little purpose , if no such finall change were resolv'd on , as you surmise ; Toward the discovery of which Truth , if what I have already writ , be not enough demonstrative , let us , with all due regard to the Pious memory of that excellent Princess , take a summary review of the Declaration it self , and see what we can make probable of its tendency to either term . Her protestation is plain and positive , as before I minded you , That neither Papist , nor Protestant , in Masquerade as you suspect , had suggested any thing to withdraw her from that Religion , wherein by Birth , and so many years education , observation , converse , hearing , and reading , what Doctrine was soundly Preached , and learnedly written , she had been well-grounded and settled to her hearts content , as was evident by many instances to all in attendance on her , especially the Chaplaines , who best know , by the strict duty they were kept to , how sollicitous her H. was , upon all incident occasions that detained , or diverted her from the ordinary hour , between three and four in the Afternoon , to have another order'd , though at seven or eight of Clock in the Evening , as she could Personally be present in her Oratory at our Prayers . Which exemplary Devotion for the service of our Church had such an influence , likewise , upon all , or most of her young Ladies , that , when they had obtained leave to make a visit , or otherwise to employ the hour , they would frequently get a little Congregation assembled in their Mothers Chamber , and have the benefit of our Evening Prayer before they would take Coach. As for the more publike Offices in the Chappell , how praecise her H. was in her Orders , and how advertent to see them executed , you best know , Mr. Iones , whose charge it was on the week-dayes , and we all can testifie for the Sundays in our courses , which if we supplied not our selves , were obliged to be accountable , unto whom we resign'd the Pulpit for the day , a considerable time before , which yet sometimes , you know , would not serve our turn ; for so select were the persons , of whom her R. H. would approve , to Preach before her , that our opinion , or character , of ▪ em would not pass currant , if not conform with that she had made of e'm to her self ; insomuch as , among others , this singular instance , I very well remember ; That a Learned Person , in great eminency of place , and of no less popular , yea , Courtly reputation for the elegancy of his Sermons , having with intendment to pay respect unto , and please her H. taken that dayes duty of mine upon himself , when notice thereof was sent into her , a convenient time before , her answer was a plain Refusall , and a command given , that I should perform my Course my self , ( as I did ) or see it otherwise supplied to her Highnesses better satisfaction ; which unexpected disappointment , as it gave me an uneasy task , to revoke my grant in as smooth and gentle language as , with necessary caution , I could Penn ; so it coloured my modesty with such a blush , as I never had the confidence to visit that Reverend Person afterward . Her Highnesses particular care of the Family , with its dependants , at St. Iames's , to keep them steady in our Religion , you have Published in her Orders , delivered to you by the Reverend Bishop of Winchester , but with no order , Sir , I presume , to make such unhandsome and uncharitable observations on them , as That the first tended to bring you and the Liturgy into contempt ; as if the Dutchess and his Lordship had conspired in that scandalous design ; whereas the true intendment seemes rather for the honour , and preference of the Morning Liturgy to a Morning Sermon , if you mean it separate from the Service ; and denotes the errour in their choice , who went to it at Whitchall , where their presence was not required , nor assistance wanted , when their duty was , to repair unto the Chappell at St. Iames's , their oeconomicall , though not parochiall place of publick worship ; whose forenoon defect of a Sermon was supplied , you know , in the afternoon , by us the Chaplaines in our courses , not to mention St. Peters Westminster , St. Margarets , St. Martins , all in our vicinage , where they could not miss , nor you , in likelihood , of a Congregation , notwithstanding the diversion of many to Whitchall ; or , if you had been thereby absolutely deserted , the like remedy might have been found , as I told you before , I succeeded in upon like occasion , and the deviating , or ambulatory , part of their H. Highnesses Family thereby reclaimed to their duty , without all jealousie of the Dutchess , or contempt drawn upon you by his Lordship . The fourth Order , you say , tended to enrage several of the Family against you . I answer , That they might be more , or less , enraged , according to the method you took for discovery , which was not directed by urgent interrogatives . Are you Protestant , or Papist ? so as they might be under constraint to tell an untruth , or betray themselves ; but rather by enquiry of others , Whether they made profession of any distinct Religion ? what ? and where they frequented any assembly in the practice of it ? This and other such gentle , or concealed , methods used ; what apprehensions could you , Sir , have had from their rage in the Court , and under the protection of both their H. Highnesses ? Lastly , You say , you did begin to Catechise , but was discouraged by the Arts of the said Bishop . Mr. Iones , Do not deceive your self by a prejudice against my Lord ; for you did not only begin , but went on confidently several dayes , I may say weeks , without that discouragement , untill you became so ridiculous to the very Gentlemen you would pretend to instruct , and so much the discourse of others , to my knowledge , about the Court , who in some concealed place were your Auditours , though unseen ; who reported afterwards what they heard , but could by no means understand ( of which curiosity I was not guilty ) that I am of opinion , my Lord of W. could not but be informed of it , and might silence you by his power , if you suppressed not your self by your after-prudence , when some good friend had dealt freely and plainly with you in that particular . So that certainly you forgot your Order , which was , To Catechise and Instruct the Pages and others who want instruction , very constantly , according to the Orders of the Church of England , N. 9. Whereas , I fear in your Zeal for their speedy and over-full instruction , you ran out to such an excessive length , and so dilated in a confused Paraphrase , as the Church of England has neither ordered , nor will allow . Somewhat like to this Order , not of Catechise , but enquiry , I had received from her H. long before this of yours , upon notice whereof given , all those young Gentlemen , that were then Pages , met me at Major Eyres's house , to sustain the Scrutinie , which , with all alacrity , they did singly , every one in turn , out of the others hearing ; My business was , 1. To sound their inclinations , or praepossessions , in matters of Religion , as to what was practised in either Chappell at St. Iames's . 2. To search , whether their Tutour or under-Governour , Mr. Collins , a discreet and sober person , had not been tampering with them , at any time , and endeavouring to seduce them toward the other Chappell , as you oddly call it , ( according to the style , meseemeth of the other House , you , formerly , may have been accustom'd to ) some suggestion , of like sort with that you now own , having been made , ( by whom I know not ) to her R. H. and Mr. Collins render'd a dangerous person to have the guidance of those young Gentlemen . The account hereof I gave her H. did so well satisfie her , as the said Mr. Collins was better confirmed in his place , and her Highnesses good opinion , then before , who had been otherwise supplanted , and certainly discharged . This passage I recollect , and here recite ( still more in conjunction with you ) to strengthen the argument I am about , That her H. from time to time , was very firm in the Religion of our Reformed Church . I return now to Mounsieur Maimburg's Printed Declaration . [ Il est bien vray qu' ayant veu la ferveur et la devotion des Catholiques de ces Pais la , &c. ] Whereas her H. so much magnifies the fervour , and devotion , she had beheld in France , and Flanders , in comparison with which her own was nothing , or very little , as she judg'd ; that modest opinion justifies more the method of her humility , then Christian charity , which in this case , if in any , ought surely to have begun at home ; I mean not with a better opinion of her own person , which yet from others might have deserved it ; for that Soul , though of the greatest Princess , cannot be layed too low , which the more it is by its self depressed , the higher will it be by God exalted , but of others in the same Communion , especially being , as we account , reformed , and well refined from many errours , our Divines discover , so well in their Breviary , as Missal ; And if the eye , or ear , may carry it , I wish the tunsio pectoris , and other ceremonies retain'd , I hope , with very warm devotion , by your pious Britaines , Mr. Iones , had occur'd to her memory , when she beheld the dropping Beads , and turning leaves of divers Offices , by the nimblest fingers of either of the French or Flemish Ladies ; yet far be it from you , or me , Sir , to derogate from the zeal intended by those good women , ( with or without comparison ) whom I have many times beheld , with a very sensible reflexion , in whole and full Congregations , on their bended knees at their Vespers , I am sorry to say , and our own , many more , in very undue postures , and gestures , unbecoming our common , or publick Prayer , which her R. H. knew very well to be the negligence of our incurious people , not the Prophaness of our Church , which prescribed much better , and more beseeming , demeanour in her Canon . The more retired fervour , and Devotion , of those Foreign Females may be such as among other Writers , Dr. Vane , our relapsed Countrey-man , so highly commends them for , after he had done the like courtesie for their Clergy , in a glorious harangue , Pag. 266. Thus And even the weak Sex of woman , whose natural delicacy , tenderness , and infirmities , may seem to carry with them a Patent of exemption from extraordinary severities and mortifications of themselves , yet such is the omnipotency ( a bold word ) of Catholique Religion , that even these do equal , if not excel the men , in the tough exercise of denying themselves , of taking up their Cross , and imitating of Christ ; invited hereunto , more by pure love of God , and gratitude for his doing , and suffering for them , than for the expectation of reward . But little of this came , I presume , within the verge of her R. Highnessesview , or observation beyond what she had seen at some solemn Anniversary , Omgang or Procession , if their Canvas Frock or Covering had a woman under it , wherein the fervour , or excessive Calenture , of their devotion , has now and then , cost a life , until restrained , or absolutely inhibited by the Bishop of the place . Their Morning Devotions were more moderate , their early Masses , indeed , well frequented , though the Host , to few , or none , of them delivered , some private Office , perhaps that of the H. Virgin , or other Saint seperately acted , or passed over with a silent motion of the lip ; their habit loose , and not over decent , I will not say over - modest for a Church-Assembly ; some slight Veil , or Huyck● , as they call it , rendred Calyptra , or Palla , as toga a tegendo , soon put on , and as soon off , much after the rate of our morning Lecturers by Candel-light heretofore ; At their solemn Vespers , on great Festivals , I have known their Churches well warmed by the zeal of that sex alone , or in the company of few men , beside their Priests ; And a person of Honour once told me , after he came home soundly crowded , for his curiosity to see their Ceremonies , at such a time , that having darted himself sodainly behind some Pillar of a Church for concealment , when he more deliberately looked about him , and discovered none but women in full Congregation from the Altar to the very door , apprehending he might be known or suspected to be upon espial , as indeed h was , he soon Retreated , with some difficulty , being well pleased he had so made a seasonable escape . But for all this her Highnesses credulity of their fervour , and devotion , in one sex , or other , or in both , [ Ie n' avois pas neantmoin le moindre doute que la creance d' Eglise Anglicane ne fust la veritable ; &c. ] she had not the least doubt , as yet of the Faith , and truth , professed by the Church of England , nor any scruple , or trouble of conscience , upon that subject , until the November before she declared , when she began to read the History of our Reformation , composed by Dr. Heylin , so much esteemed by persons the best able to judge of it in the whole Realm , who praepossessed Her with good assurance that the said book would clear all doubt , and scruple of conscience , that could be made concerning the said Reformation . Before I proceed further in my Reflexions upon this Paragraph , I wish , I could be well satisfied in somewhat I understand not , which seemeth little to authentize the Declaration of a so prudent , and wary , Princess as you and I , Mr. Iones , had known her H. to be in all that passed from her , within our notice ; was it not just before , that she declared her self free from all doubt and scruple ? &c. What Reason then had those able & judicious persons to put her H. upon the task of reading Dr. Heylin's History , as the only book stored with sufficiency , to deliver Consciences out of all such perplexities , when she had acquainted them , that none she had ? was it ever her custome , think we , in her garden pleasures , to quit a smooth or Carpet - walk , on set purpose to entangle , and embroyl , her self in a thicket of Thorns and Bryars , to sting her thoughts with the sense of an overgrown Prince's lewdnes in another Century , which if it were so ominous , as to dash a blot , at so great a distance upon our Escuchion , or Entail a curse on Posterity to or beyond the third and fourth Generation , her Highnesses personal share could be apprehended but as of one among the many , having no lineal descent from his Loines , nor collateral Relation to him . But let the air of this madvertance , or what else it is , expire and vanish ; And take we into consideration the unexpected disappointment her H. met with , in reading the Doctor 's Book , so highly commended to her , so great as great could be , clear contrary to what was promised [ I' ay trouve au contraire , &c. ] so much it seems , in the generall , as , besides her own dissatisfaction , she thinkes it of no force , or efficacy , to becalme any troubled Spirit among the mean and ordinary sort of people ; and I think so too , it being writ in another style then what is levell'd to such low capacities , and in the matter having a mixture of such variety , as at every turne allmost the thread is broken , and they lose their way . But you , and I , Mr. Iones , can very well remember , that our eminent Princess was none of the les esprits mediocres , being more mercuriall then most of the first , or second rank in her Sex ; and I believe , it may be our joint - opinion , that her R. H. was not , at that time of day , to seek satisfaction about the principles of our Reformation , nor a stranger to other faithfull Writers upon that Subject ; who speak no less truth , and as plain English alltogether , in the case , as the worthy , and never enough magnified , Dr. Heylyn ; beside , that , on this occasion , comes into my mind an expression to our purpose , uttered , many years since , by a learned and judicious person , who was far better acquainted with her R. H. religious searches in that kind , then you and I can pretend to be , viz. That he was enough assured , she understood the state of the question , better then her noble Father , who at the same time was the great Minister of State , and , however otherwise unfortunate , the most memorable Restorer , and establisher of our ruin'd Church . Before I come to the three particulars that entangled this pious Lady , I can not but take notice of two other , wherewith she antecedently chargeth our Reformation ; 1. Changing the face of the ancient Church ; and , 2. Renouncing the Catholique Religion ; both which are most certainly disclaimed by our most learned and most impartiall Controvertists ; and the former of the two disowned by that brisk French Gentleman , Mounsieur de la Militiere , in his address to our King , which , very probably , her R. H. had read , long before her return into England , being Printed with the Lord Bishop of Derry's Answer , at the Hague , 1654. where the French Counsellor condescends to say , That the Protestants of this Kingdome , by Episcopacy , Liturgy , and Ceremonies , [ which were retained ] had preserved the face , or image , of the Catholique Church ; And I remember , when I was in Flanders , an old Benedictine of our nation asking me , how I liked the decency of their Churches , and solemnity of their Service , or publique Worship , I answered , to this purpose , That I observed little more in substance , then what he might have formerly seen , if he had pleased , in our King's Chappell , St. Pauls London , and St. Peter's Westminster , with the other Cathedrals we had in England ; whereto he somewhat sarcastically replied , That in Archbishop Laud's time , indeed ( which he needed not to have specified in absolute derogation to all the former from the first Reformation ) your Church washed , and beautified her face a little , but , for all that , more intrinsecally she was a very slut ; Let them look to that , if cause be still , who , after some intimations given by Bishop Andrewes , Mountague , and others , should see supplied what may be found wanting , and applied by practice , to render her through-reformed , and preserve her from all such reproach . As for the good old Monke , if I had been in another Countrey , I should have wiped his mouth with my Handkercheif , and opened the eyes of his understanding for a better prospect of truth among us . As to the second , I know none but our rigid Calvinists , that became absolute Renegadoes , and desertors of the Roman Church , much less of the Catholique , though taken in their own sense , which all good men and moderate among them will allow us to call what they would have it to be Roman Catholique Reformed ; Reforme we did , when they would not , by degrees , what was first found to be amiss by themselves , before , and at , their little Synod of Trent , ( for no other then so was it , compared to a truly Generall , or universall Councill , Italy alone being but a spot , or parsell of the Universe ; ) And retain we did so much as the circumstances of those times would permit , of the Doctrine and Discipline transmitted to us from the more ancient , because being , as called , the Primitive Church , as it extendeth to the first five Centuries at least , if no more ; which her H. might have found averred by all the Orthodox Fathers , and other Learned Writers , then , and since then , of our English Nation ; whose works , if they had not come to her sight before , all Libraries , at her desire , would have been searched for her satisfaction , and why somewhat to that purpose was not seasonably order'd , I am not to be accountable ; And if Mr. Iones had said no more but that either her R. H. departed from us , or her Directors , who e're they were , left her solitary in her choice , upon too easie termes , I could have little contradicted . That somewhat more of what they opin'd , and practis'd , might have been taken in by our first Reformers , or may be yet by a Nationall Synod , or Convocation , if commissioned to consider of it , I freely grant , and suppose it to be the sense of our best Divines ; for King Iames's Apophthegm takes not with all , nor may be taken in a strict restraint to what is already done , I like not riding so near ; For better Authority then my own , I will cite no other , ( and am sure I can cite no better ) then Bishop Andrews , nor any more authentick part of his workes , then his private Prayers ; who , in his Manuall of Meditations , and private Devotions , for Monday every week , beggs of the Lord , for the Church Catholic Confirmation , and Enlargement ; Eastern deliverance and unity ; Western ( wherein ours is included ) perfection and peace ; but more expresly for the British ( which is our own ) supply of what is wanting , establishment of what remaines ; ( may the good Prelate's Prayer be answered to perpetuity in the last , whatsoever becomes of the first ) For why we should quit what we have , because we have not all we would , and go over we well know not , why , or whither , is a Riddle I yet understand not ; nor , if I may enjoy my share in what we have , though I never have it of what we want , ( it being no part of my province to gain enlargement , ) I hope my conscience will never be much perplexed about our present , wherein soever defective , State. But the three remarkes her R. H. made in reading Dr. Heylyn's History seemed so hainous , or odious , as ought not , she thought , to be digested toward a Reformation . 1. Henry the eight's Luxery , the Popes restraint of which made him struggle , and at last get loose . 2. The covetousness and sacriledge of the Lord Protector to Edward the sixth ; And 3. The nullity of Queen Elizabeth's Title to the Crown . The last of which I do not find asserted , but rather the contrary , by Dr. Heylyn , who makes the Estate of Sir Thomas Bollen's Family to have become fortunate by the production of that Princess , to the Realm of England , Pag. 86. Who reports the illegitimation of the Lady Mary , and entailing of the Crown , for the default of issue male , upon the Princess Elizabeth ; somewhat he has of Henry the eight's apprehension , when he became as much offended at his second Marriage , as he had been at the first , That the legitimation of his Daughter Elizabeth might be as likely to be called in question , in the time succeeding , as that of Mary in the former , Pag. 91. yet afterward , That if her Mother had only lost her head , though with the loss of her honour , it would have been no bar to her Daughter Elizabeth from succeeding her Father in the Throne , pag. 93. And what ground was found out , on which to dissolve the Marriage , he cannot tell , it not appearing upon record ; but that it was dissolved , does , by a solemn instrument under the Seale of Archbishop Cranmer &c. pag. 94. And if it were done errante clave , ( as , for ought we know , it might ) our doubting Dutchess was not obliged to demurr upon that , unless with intent to suspend her censure , and her change too , ( upon that account ) untill better assurance , which neither the Doctor 's History , nor any other , I have heard of , could give her . Finally , whatsoever difficulties might be made , That the Crown did of right belong to her , when the point was brought to issue , both the Doctor ownes , upon the death of Queen Mary , and the Parliament then sitting could not deny it her . Pag. 101. Her Highnesses scruple rested then , it seemes , upon K. Henry's Lust after change of Wives , and her abomination of Sacriledge lay'd to the charge of him and others , which I know none of our faithfull Historians have much endeavoured to excuse , or palliate ; It being the sense of them all , which my Lord Bishop of Derry thus declared in his Schisme garded , pag. 58. Posterity is not guilty of their Ancestours transgression further then they do imitate them , or maintain them . And as for acts of Sacriledge and the like impieties ( as certainly Henry the eighth , and some others cannot be freed from such ) they are by us as freely charged upon the actors , as by any Romanist they can be , sayeth the sound and learned Dr. Hammond , ch . 7. of Schisme , adding , But yet Sacriledge is no more Schisme then Adultery , and the Church , on which one sin hath been committed , cannot be from thence proved to be guilty of every other . These , and a hundred more authorities to intercept such objections , if the Dutchess knew not , her H. cannot be well excused ; and if she did , which may more reasonably be supposed , how can you and I Mr. Iones , afford credit to Mounsieur Maimburg , that she would use so weak an argument , to justifie her Secess . So that her Highnesses imagination , was unnecessarily troubled about the concurrence of God's Spirit with such hainous acts , and manifest impieties , as the libertinage of K. H. 8. The Lord Protectour Seymour's Sacriledge , and Q. Elizabeth's Usurpation , ( if it may be supposed . ) But the H. Spirit might go along with a finall renunciation of the Pope's usurpt Supremacy , and tyranny over our King and Nation , after 400 years dispute about the point , with intervalls , and variety of success on either side ; And an Oath may be tender'd to maintain the Kings Independent Praerogative in Church affairs , quoad extra , without any offence , or resistance of the said H. Spirit ; Of which Praerogative yet if a King ( which I put at large , because all Christian Kings are alike concern'd in the case ) will at any time remit , and deliver freely , or with some reserve , his Ecclesiastike Power into the hands of the Church , or into his whom he will constitute , for the time , Caput unitatis , the Head of unity in his Realm ( as many have done , and do at this present ) I know no reason , why the Subject should not submit to that derivative power , which being held of the King , is ordained of God ; For to say , That , before the Reformation made , any Subject might have withdrawn his obedience to the King , because the King had vested that part of his power in the Pope , I fear had been little less than resisting , or at least declining the ordinance of God ; to go on no further in that Text. But I return to our most unhappily perplexed Princess , who takes offence at the Bishops , that were of the first Reformers , for pretending their sole design to have been re-establishing the Doctrine and Discipline of the Primitive Church , after Henry 8. had enterpriz'd a separation from Rome upon no other account but his own satisfaction in criminall pleasures : What K. Henry 8's principall , or less principall intents were , I know none but the ghost of his Confessour , if raised again , could assure her ; The most Reverend Archbishop Cranmer , no doubt , knew most of his mind , from beginning to end , in the matter of divorce , and what annexes it had of his criminall pleasures , &c. but , in what I have seen of his Grace's writing , I met with nothing at all which in that particular could have gratified her Highness : yet be K. Henry's meaning alltogether so bad as suspected , I understand not why the Reverend Bishops , who were better inclined , should be involved with him in the sin , being instruments , under God , of bringing good out of evil , and who , by such degrees as K. Henry's other policies would permit , made good that pretence , both the rest of his , and in the few years of Edward 6. his Reign , howsoever managed by that covetous Lord Protectour in his minority , as in a great part , beside other instances , our Historians have mentioned , does undeniably appear in that little Code of Reformation , as I may call it , entituled , The institution of a Christian Man , composed and published by , and with the consent of many pious and prudent persons , Anno 1537. viz , the two Archbishops at that time , nineteen of the Bishops , eight Archdeacons , and seventeen Professours of Divinity , Ecclesiasticall and Civill Lawes ; which book and some other like , beside many Dedicatory and Praefatory Epistles praefixed to them , if her H. had neither in possession , nor seen , she was strangely destitute of due assistance , and not well praepared for so severe a censure in a praecipitate Declaration . Nor yet much better , I fear , for the application , she next made , to instruct her self in the controversiall points between us and the Roman-Catholiques , having not read , as may be presumed , the Primitive Fathers , and Councels , but relying upon sole Scripture , without the Conciliators of Texts , ( if not opposite , inconsistent in shew ) nor other authentike Interpreters , but her own private spirit , perhaps forearmed with prayers and teares , but not praeassured by promise of Divine assistance , and all desired success in the revelation of truth , ( the solemn objection thrust upon us , successively by the Papists ) and a too forward adventure , which most commonly imports more haste then good speed , as is here manifested by the sequel , in her own Confession , That the Scripture she believed not her self , by her self , capable to understand ; Yet on her H. went , and , notwithstanding the distrust she had of self and solitary abilities , to her astonishment , in the most difficult points of all , drew with her own Bucket more truth , as she was mis-perswaded , from the bottom of the Well , then the woman of Samaria could do with hers , who went her way , and left her water-pot behind her , having her thirst quencht indeed , yet not with the water she her self had drawn , but with that of the Spirit , infused from the mouth of the Messias , the infallible Prophet , the Christ , as the Samaritan so good as confessed to the Citizens she earnestly called upon to come and see , not to suddainly believe , until better attested to 'em ; Venite & videte , not venite & credite , as Aquinas has it from St. Chrysostom ; And proijciat hydriam qui vult Evangelizare . He , or she , that will evangelize , or interpret the Gospell rightly , must leave his Bucket behind him , or break his Water-pot in pieces . [ I' ay tronve neantmoins , &c. ] Yet notwithstanding her distrust , her H. found what she could not promise her self so soon to discover , severall things , which now appeared so plain , and , according to her judgment , so easie to comprehend , that she wondred a thousand times , how so long time had passed without reflecting on 'em ; The particulars , whereof she now was strongly convinced , [ fortement convaincue ] were , 1. The reall presence of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar ; 2. The infallibility of the Church . 3. Confession , Auricular she meanes ; And 4. Prayers for the Dead ; Of all which could I be convinced by the strongest argument I have heard , or read , in their Controversiall Writers , I would soon be so far converted too . Of the first so many volumes have been written on both sides , that I am perswaded , there can be little argument invented new on either , to avoid transcript , or the Author's disrepute of being plagiary , but what is futile in so serious a quaestion , or what makes the Schisme and Distance between us unnecessarily , if not affectedly , greater ; for , setting aside the History of opinions in the severall ages of the Church , the quotations of Fathers , and other modern Authors , the variety of expressions , every man desiring to utter his own mind in his own words , I really believe , the substance of what we mean , as relating to the whole controversie , might be as well , and as intelligibly , contracted into one single sheet , as spread upon so many thousand quires of Paper which fly about the world . But to the point . The reall presence [ la presence reelle ] in the Sacrament of the Altar was the first thing her R. H. missed in the Church of England ; I hope the Reverend D. Sutclive did not , whose book she ever had in her hand , when we approached to administer the body and blood of our Saviour to her , upon her knees ; If he did , I am sure his equalls , and his superiours , our Church Dignitaries and others , have not declined the term Real , from the beginning of our Reformation to this day , nor to declare what is meant by the same , according to the sense and acception of the Primitive Fathers , whom they cite in multitudes to authorize the Doctrine of our Church therein ; Of some the most eminent I shall render their own words , and afterward apply my self to what follows . Let the most Reverend Archbishop Cranmer be the first , who in the Preface of his Answer unto D. Stephen Gardiner p. 1. sayeth Where I use to speak sometimes ( as the old Authors do ) that Christ is in the Sacraments , I mean the same as they did understand the matter , that is to say , not of Christ's carnall presence in the outward Sacrament , but sometimes of his Sacramentall presence — — — That Christ and his holy Spirit be truely , and indeed , present by their mighty and sanctifying power , vertue , and grace , in all them that worthily receive the same . Again , pag. 8. of his first Book of the Sacrament . As he giveth the Bread , so giveth he his very body to be eaten with our Faith. And therefore I say , that Christ giveth himself truely to be eaten , chawed , and digested , but all is Spiritually with Faith , not with mouth . The Reader is to take notice , That when his Grace useth the termes verily and indeed , which are the same in our Church-Catechisme , I understand his sense aequivalent to theirs after him , who say , really , upon the like occasion , neither he nor they meaning more , or less , then our Church does , nor all otherwise then did the Primitive Fathers ; for when really is extended to denote transubstantially , his Grace afterward utterly disclaimes it . As does likewise the Right Reverend Bishop Iewell of Sarum , our Church Apologist against the Papists . pag. 319. of his Reply to Mr. Harding's Answer ; We teach the people , not that a naked Sign , or Token , but that Christ's Body , and Blood , indeed and verily is given unto us ; that we verily eat it : that we verily drink it ; that we verily be relieved , and live by it . — Yet we say not , either that the substance of the Bread or Wine is done away : or that Christ's Body is let down from Heaven , or made Really , or Fleashly Present in the Sacrament . The most Reverend Archbishop Laud declines not at all the word , but commends it for the best that can be used in the matter of the H. Sacrament , pag. 188. of the Relat. of his Conf. speaking of C. Bellarmine , thus ; Now if he had left out Conversion , and affirmed only Christ's reall presence there , after a mysterious ; and indeed an ineffable manner , no man could have spoke better . Again pag. 192. And for the Church of England , nothing is more plain , than that it believes and teaches the True and Reall presence of Christ in the Eucharist . And this his Grace declares ; not only for himself , but urgeth , that Archbishop Cranmer comes more plainly , and more home to it than Frith , [ a Martyr for it that had said enough before ] For if you understand ( saith he ) by this word really , Reipsa , that is in very deed and effectually ; so Christ by the grace and efficacy of his Passion , is indeed and truly present , &c. but if by this word Really , you understand Corporaliter Corporally , in his natural and Organical Body , under the Forms of Bread and Wine , 't is contrary to the Holy Word of God. And so likewise Bishop Ridley . Nay , Bishop Ridley addes yet farther , and speaks so fully to this Point , as I think no man can add to his Expression . Both you and I ( saith he ) agree in this : That in the Sacrament is the very true and natural Body and Blood of Christ , even that which was born of the Virgin Mary ; which ascended into Heaven , which sits on the right hand of God the Father ; which shall come thence to judge the quick and the dead . Only we differ in modo , &c. With the aforesaid Prelates the learned Bishop Mountagu thus accords pag. 250. of his Answer to the Gagger , He gave substance , and really subsisting essence , who said , This is my body : this is my Blood : It. pag. 251. Poor Woodcock or Catholique Cockscomb , that sendest a Protestant to seek a figure , who is as reall and substantiall as any Papist . Id. afterward in his Appeale pag. 289. speaking to the Informers . Which Reall presence , in your Divinity , is flat Popery ; but not in the Divinity of the Church of England ; for this he cites Bishop Bilson , Andrews , Morton ; and for the easie accommoding the difference between them and us , were it not for the Jesuites faction on their side , and the Puritans on ours , the incomparable Hooker , that Puritanomastix , as he calls him . To this effect is the late Bishop of Durham's first Chapter in his accurate History of Papal Transubstantiation , where the Reall , that is , the true , and not imaginary Presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist , is asserted out of the Sacred Scriptures , according to the very words praefixed in the Title of it . And the most acute , no less solid , Bishop Ier. Taylor in his larger Tractate , entituled , The Reall presence and Spirituall of Christ in the blessed Sacrament , Proved against the Doctrine of Transubstantiation . Which Doctrine is , that no question her H. meanes , though couched in the word Reall , not considering , perhapps , that Real-Spiritual may alltogether as well be in conjunction as Real-Carnal , or Corporeal ; otherwise her complaisance in the discovery had not been such as to deserve her astonishment , or wonder , when of so many learned Writers we have upon that Subject , she could scarce have taken a book in hand which would not have set the terme , or true sense and meaning of it in her view , with the concession of our Church , if she had read , or heard other of it , the Authours were not well studyed in the point , but took on trust the expressions of our early Writers after the Reformation , whereas the true state of the Controversy was not so clearly understood at first on either side as it is now . Sayed the Bishop of Derry , Sch. Gard. p. 378. And being so , in the opinion of those I mention'd , and many more may the difference , so formidable as it looks , be much more easily reconciled then heretofore , both sides contributing their symbol to a happy peace , and not struggling for that which never will be made good and evident on either ; For had her H. known or consided , what the Authour of Fiat lux saies , there have been fifty , or threescore several interpretations of these few words , Hoc est corpus meum , This is my body , which , it may be , upon further search he might have multiplied to a hundred by variety of paraphrase in every man's peculiar distinct way of expression , and did all those vanish , or return to their first origen , the literal sense at last , by fixing a more steady eye , or serious thought then formerly upon the Text ? Bishop Mountagu who had many Bibles , and Interpreters of all sorts about him , after a thorough search , could not so determine it , but much otherwise , viz. Transubstantiation , or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine in the Supper of the Lord , cannot be proved by Holy Writt : but it is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture , overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament , and hath given occasion unto many superstitions . Appeal pag. 297. Yet allthough we deny the change so called to be reasonable , or intelligible ; I remember not that we deny it to be possible ; by God's omnipotence , which is not limited by rules of reason , and naturall Philosophy , in extraordinary transmutations ; But to say , God does it , because he can do it , is no logicall argument ; nor holds it any more in this , then in a thousand other things , within the infinitude of his power , which we be sure , are not , nor do we believe shall be ever actually accomplished . And why her H. should be troubled in conscience about that she knew , or might have known , many learned , honest , and industrious men on both sides ( for that is truth , had her H. taken time to look about her ) could never attain to , beyond the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ! or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ! I confess is my wonder ; yea , and so much the more , because she had in her own power , which was enough to quiet her own Conscience , what she alledg'd she wanted ; for I positively demand , who hindred her from believing Transubstantiation , if by Revelation or self-perswasion , or submission to the opinion of some admired , or endeared person , she was prevailed with to believe it true , or intrinsecally to adhaere to it , as if it were ? Who from paying divine worship , after such mis-perswasion or submission , to the body and blood of our Saviour , when tender'd to her upon her knees ? The Church directed her R. H. among others , what she would have her do , according to the Doctrine published in the Confession of it , but the Church enquired not after what she thought , or with what intention she acted her part in that holy duty , and , I hope her Conscience was not troubled , because others did not , upon like principles , or in kind compliance , what she would have them , and tell her H. so at their hazard . Our Bishop Iewell quotes D. Tonstall , ( and seemes not to dislike it ) saying thus ; Of the manner and meane how this might be ( whether by Transubstantiation , or otherwise ) perhaps it had been better to leave every man that would be Curious , to his own Conjecture : as before the Councel of Laterane , it was left at liberty , Pef. of Apol. pag. 237. And in generall upon like occasion ( wherein this may be suppos'd included ) sayes that H. Martyr Archbishop Laud , — how far that Belief or any other , sinkes into a man's heart , is for none to judge but God. Conf. p. 213. Further yet , Her ghostly Father of the Roman Church , if none of ours were to be trusted , might have instructed her , That Suarez , among divers other , a learned man of great note with them , made plain confession , That , to believe Transubstantiation is not necessary to be taken in to the Doctrine of Fayth ; and why then should her H. be so much concerned for it ? And D. Fisher sometime Bishop of Rochester , That it cannot be proved by any Scripture . Bishop Iewell Repl. And if not thence to be proved , her perswasion was groundess , and her labour in the search fruitless , if not fallicious as to her self ; for most certain it is , those deep-learned Doctours could dive further into the sense of H. Writ , then a Lady that meant well , but had little skill in Metaphysicks to assist her , which Suarez himself sayes this point requires ; but against private illumination , or a self-conceit of it , whether so , or no , I can say nothing . In summe , the change that does so divide us , what e're it be , is a secret of God's own making , and a secret of God's own keeping , wherein her H. might have acquiesced , with the like moderation , as the Lady Elizabeth shewed , before she came to be Queen , which she might have read with the other passages in Dr. Heylyn's History , very substantially , and significantly , allthough rhythmically thus expressed , 'T was God the Word that spake it , He took the Bread and brake it , And what the Word did make it , That I believe and take it . I add but one word more ; The mysteries being so great , and the difficulties being so many ; I much doubt , whether the more intelligent sort of Roman-Catholiques do themselves believe Transubstantiation , though so earnest for it , to obtain the better Character among the more simple Devotes that do ; which when I was in those countreys , I adventur'd to tell some of them , who had patience enough to hear it , without making a very earnest , much less a reproachfull , answer ; and very glad I am , that , upon this occasion , I have met with countenance , and am confirmed in my suspicion by a most reverend and able Authour , Archbishop Laud Conf. pag. 192. where his Grace declares opinion in these few lines . As for the Learned of those zealous-men , that died in this Cause in Q. Maries dayes , they denied not the Reall presence , simply taken , but as their Opposites forced Transubstantiation upon them , as if that and the Reall presence had been all one ; Whereas all the Ancient Christians ever believed the one , and none but Modern and Superstitious Christians believe the other ; if they do believe it : for I , for my part doubt they do not . And as for the Un-learned in those times , and all times , their zeal ( they holding the Foundation ) may eat out their Ignorances , and leave them safe . Be contented with , That it is the Body of Christ , and do not seek , nor define ; how it is so , and we shall not contest , nor contend , sayes Bishop Mountagu in his Appeal , Ch. 31. In which happy medium may both parties meet , and be indissolubly or indivisibly for ever reconciled . Of Infallibility . Her Highnesses next discovery was an Infallibility of the Church , but points not to any one or more Texts of Scripture , by which she owned her self convinced ; nor yet teils us , what she means by the Church , nor in what points , or cases , she would have it infallible , unless she intends all ; And where is that , or those Texts of Scripture that did convince her ? What concerning Infallibility she might have learned from our most eminent Writers , I shall produce , for their sakes who may be under the same difficulty , and , perhaps , not so successfull , or sodain , in meeting with the like satisfaction as our Dutchess did . As for the most learned , and acute Dr. Ier. Taylour , I can not tell , whether I were best advise 'em to read , first , or last of all , his 1. Sect. of the second Part of the Disswalive from Popery , where he treateth of it at large ; because , if first , I am afraid they will meet with such Moeanders , uncertain windings , and short turnes of subtilty , I mean not Sophistry , but Scholastike double refined notices , which he makes unavoidable in the inquiry , as they will hardly have courage enough to consult any other Authour afterward , nor submission enough to arrest on him . And if they take him last in hand , whatsoever Rock of Authority , or Reason , they may have built on before , the sharpness of his Pen and Fancy will be such , as to eat or penetrate into every cleft of it , and not onely break it into shivers , but multiply them into heapes of Sand , which being washed away by the Spring-tyde of his ingenious approaches , and irresistible force of his argumentative assaults , their building must needs fall , and be carryed into an Abyss or Ocean , which they can never fathome , or sound the depth of . Archbishop Cranmer , in his Answer to Smith's Preface , speakes not home enough to their purpose , where he sayth ; Truth it is , indeed , that the Church doth never wholly erre , for ever in most darkness God shineth unto his elect , and in the midst of all iniquity he governeth them so with his holy word and spirit , that the gates of Hell prevaile not against them — — — — This Church is the piller of truth , because it resteth upon God's word , which is the true and sure foundation , and will not suffer it to erre and fall . Pag. 405. 406. It is the invisible Church his Grace meanes , for of the outward , and visible , he absolutely denies it ; and this proves , I confess , rather the perpetuity , then infallibility , of the Church . Bishop Field recollects several acceptions of the Church , Book 4. Ch. 2. First , as it comprehendeth the whole number of believers , that are , and have been , since Christ appeared in the flesh ; which Church , he sayes , is absolutely free from all errour and ignorance of Divine things , that are to be known by revelation . The second acception is , as it comprehendeth only all those believers , that are , and have been , since the Apostles time ; which , in things , that are , of necessity , to be expresly known by all that will be saved , that it should erre , is impossible ; And , further , thinkes it as impossible , that any errour , whatsoever , should be found in all the Pastours and Guides of the Church , thus generally taken . Touching the Church , as it comprehendeth onely the believers that now are in the world , he sayes , In things necessary to be known , and believed expresly , and distinctly , it never is ignorant , much less doth it erre ; yea , in things that are not absolutely necessary to be known and believed expresly , and distinctly , it never is ignorant , much less doth it erre ; yea , in things that are not absolutely necessary to be so known and believed , we constantly believe , that this Church can never erre , nor doubt , pertinaciously , &c. But , because I doubt , whether our Princess made reflexion upon the Church in such a diffusive sense , and supposing that she wanted such an Oracle of Infallibility , as to which there could be access for imediate resolve of scruples and doubts , upon all occasions , ( which , I fear , had her H. lived longer to make triall , would have been as much missing in the Roman Church , as in ours , ) I must lay aside many other excellent Writers upon this point , I have before me , or at hand , and take up one , so learned , and Orthodox as the best , and him the rather , because he useth not to be so nice in uttering his mind freely and learnedly , and yet making it consistent with the Article of our Church , though in appearance , point blanck contradictory to what he resolutely concludes , it is Bishop Mountagu I mean , who in his Appeal , where he justifies what he had said in his answer to the Gagger ; his Position is this , The Church Representative , true and lawfull , never yet erred in Fundamentals , and therefore I see no cause but to vouch , The Church Representative can not erre , The Church Representative is a Generall Councel not titularly so , as the Conventicle of Trent , but plenarily true , generall and lawfull . Points Fundamentall be such as are immediate unto faith — — — — — — — Let any man living shew me , sayes he , any historicall mistakings , misreportings , where , when , in what any Generall Councell , according to true acception , or Church Representative , hath so erred in the resolution and decission of that Councell ; for in the debating of doubts , questions , propositions , the case is otherwise , and not the same . I conceive and acknowledge but four Councells of this kind , that of Nice , of Constantinople , of Ephesus , of Chalcedon . The Church of England may seem to have been of a contrary mind in her determinations ; For Artic. 21. we read thus Generall Councels — — — — — when they be gathered together ( forasmuch as they be an assembly of men , whereof all be not governed with the spirit and word of God ) they may erre , and sometime have erred , even in things pertaining unto God. Which decision of the Article is not home to this purpose , as he particularly proves , and hath the approbation of the Reverend Dr. Francis White , afterward Bishop of Ely , that he found nothing therein [ in that and his whole Book ] but what is agreeable to the Publick Faith , Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England , of whose Doctrine the said 21 Article is a noted part . But because the Bishop leaves this Infallibility at above a thousand yeares distance , viz : the last Generall Councel of Chalcedon , attributing no such thing to any the pretended Generall Councels since ; it is necessary I go seek a supplement somewhere else , for the guidance of doubting persons , who may be at loss , what to think the state of the Church hath been in so long an intervall ; and , if they take Posterity into their care , what it may be in a much longer yet to come , before such another Generall Councel meet , now the Latine Church seemes to be finally settled upon the Lees of the Decisions in the Councel of Trent . Among those many I have turned over , I find not where to furnish my self better then from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that most glorious Martyr , now a resplendent starr of magnitude among the Saints above , in his famed Book , commended by that Royall Martyr not long before he drank of the same Cup , that bloudy Brook in the way to his celestiall Crown , Archbishop Laud's Conference with Mr. Fisher the Iesuite ; where his Grace sayes , Whether a Generall Councel may erre , or not , is a Question of great consequence in the Church of Christ , To say , It can not erre , leaves the Church not onely without remedy against an errour once determined ; but also without sense that it may need a remedy , and so without care to seek it — — To say , It can erre , seemes to expose the members of the Church to an uncertainty and wavering in the Faith , to make unquiet spirits , not onely to disrespect former Councels of the Church , but also to slight and contemn whatsoever it may now determine . — — — — I said , the Determination of a Generall Councel erring was to stand in force , and to have External Obedience at least yielded to it , till Evidence of Scripture , or a Demonstration to the Contrary , made the Errour appear ; and until thereupon another Councel of equal Authority did reverse it . Pag. 146. 147. In the following Considerations is added , with submission to our Mother the Church of England , and to the Mother of us all , the Universall Catholick Church of Christ ; That the Assistance of the H. Ghost is without errour , that 's no quaestion : and as little there is , That a Councel hath it . This , in the abstract , is as home as need to be in the point , but this , afterward , is somewhat moderated , by distinguishing the infallibility of the after-Councels from that of the Apostles themselves , Acts , 15. where they say of themselves , and the Councel held by them : It seemes good to the Holy Ghost and to us , ( who might indeed , well say it ) but he does not find , that any General Councel since , though they did implore , as they ought , the assistance of that Blessed Spirit , did ever take upon them to say , in-terminis , in express terms of their Definitions , Visum est Spiritui Sancto , & Nobis ; It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us , Acknowledging thereby ( as I conceive ) a great deal of difference in the Certainty of those things which a Generall Councel had after determined in the Church , and those which were settled by the Apostles , when they sate in Councel ; But then , again , though he did not find , That they used this speech punctually in terms , yet the Fathers , when they met in Councel , were Confident , and spake it out , That They had assistance from the Holy Ghost ; yet so , as that They neither took Themselves , nor the Councels They sate in , as Infallibly Guided by the Holy Ghost , as the Apostles were ; And he saies , Valentia is very right in concluding , That though the Councel say , they are gathered together in the Holy Ghost , yet the Fathers are neither arrogant , in using the speech , nor yet Infallible for all that . If other their Writers had used the like moderation , perhaps her R. H. had not been so much concerned about it . I expect nothing more will be obtained from other our Controvertists towards the satisfaction of any in like condition ; yet because Mr. Chillingworth had a more peircing eye of reason then most of the rest , I will summe up his method so short as I can , and see what we can make good out of it . This he layes as the groundwork of his Discourse with F. Knott ; That the distinction of Points Fundamental , and not Fundamental , is in this Controversie good and pertinent : And that the Catholique Church may erre in the latter kind of the said Points . 2. That it is not so prodigiously strange as his adversary thinkes : That we will never be induced to give in a particular Catalogue , what points be Fundamental . Pag. 119. 3. That may be Fundamental and necessary to one , which to another is not so ; Which variety of Circumstances makes it imposible to set down an exact Catalogue of Fundamentals — and therefore we must content our selves , by a general description to tell what is Fundamental . 4. It is sufficient for any mans salvation , to believe that the Scripture is true ; and containes all things necessary for salvation ; and to do his best endeavour to find and believe the true sense of it , without delivering any particular Catalogue of Fundamentals . Pag. 120. 5. Though the Church may erre in some points not Fundamental : yet may she have certainty enough in proposing others . 6. He that grants the Church infallible in Fundamentals , and ascribes to the Apostles the infallible guidance of the Spirit , in a more high and absolute manner , than to any since them , limits not the Apostles infallibility to Fundamentals . 7. The Apostles were led into all Truths by the Spirit efficaciter ; The Church is led into all Truths , by the Apostle writings sufficienter . Pag. 131. led so as that she may follow ; but not so , that she must . These assertions of his influence the most part of his long Discourse with the learned Iesuite ; If ought more there be to strengthen e'm , it may fall in with what I have yet to add , relating to the invaledity of her R. Highnesses motive for deserting our Church , upon account of any assurance she could have of being , more firmely , and finally , settled in this point , upon the grounds and principles thereof in the Church of Rome ; For yeilding , pro dato , not concesso what the greatest Doctors there would have , more particularly those of ours that went over to them before this good Lady ; I demand , what found they there beyond what they had here at home ? I will fix upon one or two of them , in whose conversion they so good as tell us , they are most triumphant . Let the first be Dr. Vane , Chaplain to his late Majesty , who , in the very entrance to his sixth Chapter of The Infallibility of the Church , begins thus ; Now that the Catholique Church , ( which Society of Christians soever it be ) is the onely , faithful , and true witness of the matter of God's word , to tell us what it is , and what is not it , the only true interpreter of the meaning of God's word , and the last and finall judge of all controversies , that may arise in matters of Religion , and that she is not onely true , but that she can not be otherwise , seeing she is infallible . Our Church , which is Catholique too , in concurrence with that he went to , is , he knew , extended to the first four Generall Councels to the Fathers of the first five or six hundred yeares , from whom we receive the Canon we have of the H. Bible , and to whose writings we go for the interpretation of any Texts that , any way , seem doubtfull , if necessary to be resolved ; In others not so considerable , for ought I know , we leave every man to his own diligence in comparing Text with Text , for mutuall illustration ; and to his own reason for inference of the best truth from the premises he makes himself ; or if so ignorant , he can make none , we send him to the lips of his Parochiall Priest , or some other , at his choyce , which certainly should preserve at least , so much knowledge , as to determine the little difficulties brought to him , according to the sense of our Nationall Church , if such as whereof she hath taken any notice . For Catholique Tradition we go to the Catholique Writers , so truely called ; For what is unwritten we have no infallible living Oracle to consult , no more have they , for ought I see , whereof any use can be made to present satisfaction ; and therein we may cry quitts , as afterward I shall briefly shew . The Conclusion herein lay'd down by D. Cressy , is as followeth ; That it belongs alone to the Catholique Church , which is the onely Depositary of Divine Revelations , authoritatively , and with obligation , to propose those Revelations to all Christians , &c. to interpret the Holy Scriptures , and to determine all emergent Controversies ; and this to the end of the world , in as much as the Church by vertue of Christ's promises , and assistance , is not onely indefectible , but continually preserved in all truth . Of what Divine Revelations the Catholique Church is Depositary , I have already owned , viz. of the H. Scriptures , and the Primitive Fathers , in their Writings , as being the best and surest Interpreters ; The difficulty yet sticks at the determining emergent Controversies , which may be multiplied in infinitum , by too dubious , and over-scrupulous persons , so well in smaller , as greater , matters , in whose behalf , for living Oracles or other certainty of infallible resolution , I am yet to seek I confess ; And therefore setting aside all nice disputes about indefectibility of their Church , and generality of Truth preserved by her , I must , and may , I hope , freely demand of Mounsieur Maimburg's Proxy if he have any in England . Whether the Controversies , or doubts raised in our Princess's breast , were not emergent , whereof since her R. H. could not be resolved with us , I may , modestly , ask whither they sent her for satisfaction ; or rather , what infallible Judge it was , whom they brought to her bedside in that infirm condition ; I would use no railery in these solemn discourses , but their matter of stating the case in quaestion does , as it were , obliege me to do somewhat like it , after which short apologie , I hope I may be allowed to proceed ; The Pope in person it could not be , who is resident at Rome , and has enough to do with the Controversies and emergences , that from all parts of Christendome are carryed to him ; The Catholique Church it could be less , in what notion soever taken , whether as Collective , Diffusive , Representative , &c. No Councel sitting , the dispersed Members of any impossibility not consulted ; and from the Conclave , I hope , came not the infallible spirit , I say , not in a Carriers budget , as my Lord of Derry hath been pleased , in a little ironie , to word it , with reference to that at Trent ; In fine , this infallible Judge might be Monsieur Maimburg himself , or some other Ghostly Father nearer hand , alwayes readily prepared , In nomine Domini , sanctaeque Matris Ecclesiae , to decide all Controversies , and clear all scruples in an instant , that could be suggested to him ; If so , then I come about again to my learned Controvertist Mr. Chillingworth , and borrow two or three questions from him , which I leave to be applyed to the present Case , as thought fit ; 1. Whether an ignorant man ( I insert , or a knowing , but doubting Lady ) be bound to believe any point to be decreed by the Church , when his Priest or Ghostly Father assures him , it is so . 2. Whether his ghostly Father may not err in telling him so : and whether any man can be obliged , under pain of damnation , to believe an errour . 3. Whether he be bound to believe such a thing defined , when a number of Priests , perhaps ten , or twenty , tell him , it is so ; And what assurance he can have , that they neither err , nor deceive him in this matter . 4. I add another upon my own account , though others may have done it before me ; whether it be not the same Church , which now averrs her self to be infallible , that made the first decision of it ; and if so , how she can be sure , she erred not , in making the said decision ; which may carry on the question in infinitum ? where I leave it ; concluding with my Lord Bishop of Derry's question in the case ; What availeth it to say , they have the Church for an infallible Iudge , whilst they are not certain , or do not know , what the Church is ; or who this infallible Iudge is , Sch. Gard. Pag. 406. Or what satisfaction had her R. H. in deserting our Church , because she found no infallibility pretended by it ; and going over to the Church of Rome , which , though it pretends all that may be to it , yet in reality can have as little , as appears by what is said above . CONFESSION . The next point , wherein her R. H. declares she was convinced , is that of Confession ; The use whereof our Church neither denies , nor discourageth , in any case , as I know ; but , in some , adviseth ; and , in other , wisheth , it might be reduced into practice , no exception being by her made against any frequency , whereunto poor penitents may be inclined , for quiet of Conscience , and internal acquiessence ; The necessity of it she rejects , yet layes no censure on them that hold it , so they keep their opinion within their breasts , and neither impose it on any dissenting brethren , nor publish it to the disturbance of her members , who may be well enough satisfied , if , when they see cause , they can open their grief , and , by the ministery of God's holy Word , receive the benefit , and comfort of absolution . That I may not be thought , herein , to go beyond my line , or the rule by which I am to draw it , Mr. Iones , I will consult two or three of our very Orthodox Fathers , whom , I am sure , you and your party are not able to confute . Let the Learned Bishop Mountague be the first , in his books afore cited , who sayes in brief so much as needs , in the case against his Informers , who alledged for the opinion of our Church , this , That we must not confess our sins but only unto God. 1. Shew me any such inhibition . 2. The most that hath been said is , That private Confession is free , not tyed , and therefore Juris positivi , not divini . 3. Therefore happily of conveniency , not of absolute necessity . 4. That in a private Confession unto a Priest , a peculiar enumeration of all sinns , both commission and omission , with all circumstances , and accidents , is never necessary necessarily ; most an end not expedient , nor yet , all things considered , required . 5. It is confessed , that private Confession unto a Priest , is of very ancient practise in the Church , of excellent use and practice , being discreetly handled . 6. We refuse it to none , if men require it , if need be to have it : We urge it and perswade it in extremis . We require it in case of perplexity , for the quieting of men disturbed , and their consciences . 7. It hath been so acknowledged by those of the Church of Rome ; in the Visitation of the sick , Before the receiving of the Lord's Supper , According to which doctrine , and injunction , our Bishops do , and should , enquire in their Visitations , touching the use , and neglect of this so good an order , as did that pious , learned , and reverend Bishop of Norwich , Dr. Overal in the 21 Article , enquired of in his Visitation 1619. concerning Ministers . And as perhaps would do ( as who of our worthy Prelacy , would not do ? ) his learned Successor in that See at Presentments , were it not for the trouble of vindicating himself from Popery in the point , against such as you , and your party , Mr. Jones ; which I the rather presume , without his Lordships leave , because of the excellent Sermon on this subject , many years since Printed , which I heard Preached by him at St. Mary's in Cambridge , and although question'd by the Puritanical pragmatick party , yet cleared by all other the more sound Doctors in that Consistory , and applauded by all intelligent and right-principled Members in that our famous and flourishing University . The more modern and most excellent Bishop , Ier. Taylor , although very censorious and invective , in some circumstances , enjoyn'd , and practis'd in the Church of Rome , is near so indulgent as his Predecessors , in what hath been alledged as allowed by our Church ; for in Part 2. Sect. 11. of Disuas : from Pop : thus he writes ; Whether to confess to a Priest be an adviseable discipline , and a good instance , instrument , and Ministery of Repentance , and may serve many good ends in the Church , and to the souls of needing persons , it is no part of the Quaestion ..... The Church of England is no way engag'd against it , but advises it and practises it ..... Ibid. P. 483 Indeed in order to Counsel or Comfort , it may be very useful to tell all that grieves the penitent ; all that for which he hath no rest , and cannot get satisfaction . Were it necessary to search more among our Prelates and other Dignitaries of our Church , that have freely delivered , and published their mind in this point or to annex those I have already searched , I could easily comply with it ; but ex copia satietas ; & ne quid nimium , a so good caution for moderation , puts a restraint upon me ; Wherefore I much wonder her R. H. should pretend to leave us for want of Confessors , more then of Preachers ; for if she had lookt back to some of our ancient Controvertists ( that novellissime may not be charged on the modern I have produced ) she would have met with Bishop Iewel , our great Apologist , rendring his opinion to like purpose , thus , The Abuses and Errors set apart , we do no more mislike a Private Confession , then a Private Sermon . Def. of his Apol. Part 2 , Pag. 133. But if to others of his time or since , Calvinistically addicted , so tender-conscienced are they in yielding any thing ( though our Church have done it ) toward a charitable and Christian accommodation with the Church of Rome , as what they have written would in likelihood have little relieved her R. H. in the trouble she had about it . The said Church of Rome , indeed , is very strict in this Article , imposing upon her Penitents a particular enumeration of all mortall sinnes , with all their severall aggravating circumstances , which our Royall Martyr in his Confer . pag. 172. sayes , is either not possible , or , at least , not necessary ; and hath a colourable argument for that his opinion ; which alone , then applied to the Marquiss , if it fully answer not the summe of all the learned Portuguise Doctors , And radius , ( of whom Bishop Mountagu , gives this singular Elogy above others , qui ad Concilium Tridentinum attulit & profundissimi Theologimentem , & linguam Oratoris discrtissimi , that he carried with him to the Councel of Trent the understanding of a most profound Divine , and the tongue of a most eloquent Oratour . Apparat. 1. ss . 75. ) I say , if it answer's not the summe of all that eminent person hath , of all our Opposites most pertinently , amassed for particular and perfect confession , I wish it were strengthened by our most famed Controvertists of this time , toward the true stating the difference between us , and then commending the practice of what they approve to the best advantage , and reforming the frequency , and audacity , of sinn in this licentious age ; Which the Romanists in France , and Flanders , do not alltogether with that fervent zeale , and diligent circumspection , as is pretended , at least on their most solemn Festivals , when , usually , the greatest number address themselves to their Confessors , publikely in their Churches , who make such a slight scrutinie , and so indulgently dismiss their penitents , to save time , and to give all that come the satisfaction to take their turn , that I have often censur'd the practice of it there as a meere formall business , without enquiry into many circumstances of aggravation ; Nor do I remember that I ever saw one single person arise from the knee with a penitentiall tear of sorrow upon the cheek . Yet , that some of their Fathers do , with integrity and discretion , mesnage that great concern , I will conclude with a report of what an honest Franciscan Friar , at St. Malo , told me and some other of our Nation ; That his course was this ; When any penitent came to him for absolution , he would , the first time , treat him gently , and impose no hard penance , in consideration of humane frailty ; That the second time he confessed a relapse to the same sin ; he would deale more severely with him ; But if the third time he came to be eased of a like burthen , he would not trifle away his time , in discoursing with him , but bid him go seek another Confessour , for himself would have no more , at all , to do with him . PRAYER for the DEAD . The last conviction our Princess mention's , is of Prayer for the Dead ; whereof she might have been resolved by the same , or other , alike learned Writers , on our side , so far as can be justified from the Precedent of the ancient Church ; and , I know no new discovery hath been of that uncertain state , I mean of the Dead , as should move us to more charity toward our deceased friends , then they had for theirs , and so far as they we may adventure without controll . The Right Reverend Bishop of Derry gives us in short , what some others more enlarge upon ; Schism gard . pag. 231. We condemn not all praying for the dead ; not for their Resurrection , and the consummation of their happiness ; but their [ the Papists ] prayers for their deliverance out of Purgatory ; for it is a great mistake , to think Purgatory must needs be yeilded , when we make such prayers ; For which errour , Bishop Mountagu sharply reproves the Gagger , thus ; You are a poor Ignaro , that think , Soules must needs be in Purgatory , that receive assistance from the Church ; It may be your poor understanding will wonder at it ; but know , Sir , I can admit Prayer for the Dead , and deny your Purgatory . Pag. 292. Which , I think , he repeats again to the Informers somewhere in his Appeale . Bishop Field , Book 3. Ch. 17. explaineth the manner of it among the Ancients , viz. The custome of remembring the departed , naming their names at the Holy Table , in the time of the holy mysteries , and offering the Eucharist , ( that is the sacrifice of praise ) for there was a most ancient and godly custome , neither is it any way disliked by us . — — In this sort they did most religiously observe and keep , at the Lord's Table , the commemoration of all the Patriarches , Prophets , Apostles , Evangelists , Martyrs , and Confessours — — — : but if they wished any thing , it was the deliverance from the power of death , which , as yet , tyranniseth over one part of them , the speedy destroying of the last enemy , which is Death ; the hastning of their resurrection , and joyfull publique acquitall of them in that great day , wherein they shall stand to be judged before the Judge of the quick and the dead . This was the practise of the whole Church , and this the meaning of their commemorations and prayers , which was good , and no way to be disliked . — — — It was the opinion of many of the Fathers , that there is no judgment to pass upon men till the last day ; that all men are holden either in some place under the earth , or else in some other place appointed for that purpose , so that they come not into Heaven , nor receive the reward of their labours , till the generall judgment . Seven Greek and Latine Fathers he nameth , whose opinion is such , and refers to more , in the forecited Chapter . But Bishop Taylor , ( whose diligence in his researches was indefatigable , and his discoveries , commonly , more successfull then any others ) hath , beyond the forementioned , some peculiar observations about this point , which afford great allowances of Prayer for the Dead , yet no nearer approaches to Purgatory , held by the Church of Rome . See , Part 2. of his Dissuasive from Popery , Book 2. Sect. 2. where you will find what followes ; 1. All the Fathers did pray for the Dead , yet they never prayed for their deliverance out of Purgatory , nor ever meant it . 2. Though the Fathers prayed for the Soules departed , that God would shew them mercy ; yet it was , that God would show them mercy in the day of Iudgment ; In that formidable and dreadfull day , then there is need of much mercy unto us , saith St. Chrysostom ; so , generally , Interpreters , Ancient and Modern , do understand it of Onesiphorus . 3. The faithfull departed are in the hands of Christ as soon as they die , and they are very well ; And the Soules of the wicked are where it pleases God to appoint them to be tormented by a fearfull expectation of the day of Iudgment ; but Heaven and Hell are reserved till the day of Iudgment ; and the Devils themselves are reserved in Chaines of darkness unto the judgment of the great day , saith St. Jude , and in that day they shall be sentenc'd , and so shall all the wicked , to everlasting fire , which , as yet , is but prepar'd for the Devil and his Angels for ever . 4. Some of the Ancients speak of visitation of Angels to be imparted to the Soules departed , which is a mercy ; And the hastening of the day of Iudgment is a mercy ; And the avenging of the Martyrs upon their Adversaries is a mercy ; for which the soules under the Altar pray , saith St. John in the Revelation : And the Greek Fathers speak of a fiery trial at the day of judgment , through which every one must pass ; and there will be great need of mercy . 5. After all this ; there is a remission of sinnes proper to this world , &c. But at the day of judgment there shall be a pardon of sinnes , that will crown this pardon , when God shall pronounce us pardon'd before all the world ; and when Christ shall actually and presentially rescue us from all the paines which our sinnes have deserved ; even from everlasting pain : And that 's the finall pardon , for which , till it be accomplished , all the faithfull do , night and day , pray incessantly , allthough to many , for whom they do pray , they friendly believe , that it is now certain , that they shall then be glorified . 6. St. Austin though , he had reason to pray for pardon and remission for his Mother , for the reason 's allready expressed , though he never thought his mother was in Purgatory . It was upon consideration of the dangers of every Soul that dies in Adam ; and yet he affirms , she was , even before his death , alive unto Christ. 7. In the next page he reproves that initial errour of them that affirm , Communicantes & offerentes pro Sanctis , imports not a Prayer ; And afterward makes it clear , That the Greek Fathers did really pray for mercy , for pardon , for a place of rest , for eternal glory , for them who never were in Purgatory ; for it is a great ignorance , he sayes , to suppose , that when it is said , the sacrifice or oblation is offered , it must mean only thanksgiving , being called in St. Dionys , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an Eucharisticall Prayer , and the Lord's Supper is a Sacrifice in genere orationis . And what more then this , Mr. Iones , did the two most able Bishops that we have in England confess , as touching Prayer for the Dead , &c. to her R. H. in the Conference she had with ' em ? and less then this how could they own , without a fallacy put on her , and defrauding the Church of England of what she indulgeth to her Children , in all that Reason , and Primitive practice will justifie ? And if , as to themselves , they made use thereof in private , without making publique profession thereof , what thence has such a puny Presbyter as Mr. Iones to charge them with , who lets his sling slip at randome , being not furnish'd with the least pebble that can strike either of them in the forehead ? For what is pretended that one of them confessed more , or answered her H. freely , when she pressed him upon the other points of Controversy , and principally on the Reall presence of Iesus Chrst in the Holy Sacrament of the Altar . That were he a Catholick , he would not change Religion ; but that having been educated in a Church , in which he believed there was all that was necessary to Salvation , and there having received his Baptisme , he thought he could not quit it without great scandall ; is no more then what I presume , a great number in the communion of either Church would say after him ; and they that say it not , do ordinarily , we find , change sides , when they have once prevailed with themselves to step over that consideration ; And what one Noble person , worth many hundreds of Mr. Iones's inspired party , has seriously owned to me , in his exile , after much earnest discourse upon that and other points , then whom there was , while he lived , no more intelligent and impartiall , free and familiar , Antipapist in the Peerage of our Kings dominions , the Lord Hopton , my quondam Patron , of pious memory , is the Peer I mean. And if her R. H. had been presented , seasonably , with such a choice Collection , as I have here made , from the highly learned , and very Orthodox Grandees of our Church , ( which will be further authorized , as occasion may require , by thrice the number , alike qualified , yea , and dignified too , ) I see no reason , but she might have understood her self Catholick enough where she was , as in these , so in all other points controverted between the Church of Rome and us ; and no such ardent desire of change , no such inward paines and horrible disquiets upon account of her discourse with the two most able Bishops , need have urged her to the least complaint . What other method her H. took in so important an affair , for her entire satisfaction , since she has not thought fit more particularly to declare , it will be no discretion , nor good manners , in me to make conjecture . Certain it is , she could not do better , then in praying to God from her whole heart , ( as , she sayes , she did ) to calme the inquietude , and agitation of her troubled spirit , and to give her knowledge of the truth ; But did her H. expect the answer to her prayers should be by immediate divine Revelation ? Those Reverend Bishops could , and would have acquainted her with other precedents , beside that of prayer , from devout noble Ladies in St. Hierome and other Fathers ; And had she but opened a little book of my Lady Faulklands Letters , she might have seen the remedy applied to a spirit no less disconsolate and diffident , upon one account , then her own upon another ; But in this unsteady state of doubts and fears , and an unsettled faith , being Christmas day , her H. goes to the King's Chappell , to participate of the Holy Sacrament , which , contrary to her hopes , brought new troubles upon her soul , and I wonder not a whitt at it , want of the Reall presence , or Corporeall in the Roman sense , being that which did most afflict her , whereof she might be well assured , little supply , or comfort , was to be had from the King's Chappell , and so her labour , she thought , was lost . Her next essay was by address to a Catholique , for counsell , and if possible , for cure , which now at last , was , as her H. fancied , in some sort , effected by a good Priest he sent for [ me fit venir un bon Prestre , ] with whom conferring about her interiour condition , and souls salvation , the more she parlied , the more she felt her self intrinsecally carried off , and fortified by grace of the holy Spirit toward the change of Religion ; A Gentleman of quick dispatch was this good Priest ; but I hear nothing yet of his infallibility her H. lately lookt for , unless the other Catholick , who e're he was , that call'd him to her , passed his word for it in private , which security taken , all could not but be oracular that came from his mouth . Of the H. EUCHARIST in one or both kindes . As I find in the very first place , was his decision of receiving the H. Sacrament in one kind , in which one element if were not administred both the flesh and bloud of our Saviour , Christ would never have suffered the other to be substracted , and his Church deprived of half himself , who promised to abide with her ( whole and entire , no doubt ) to the end of the world ; Nor could her H. think her self free to believe otherwise , or that Christ's own words could be frustrate . Before I can well apply my self to reflect on this Article of half-communion , ( as our Writers often call it ) I think it not alltogether impertinent , to declare my dissatisfaction at the sodain change I observe of a disconsolate dejected Spirit , to an argumentative and active Soul , in search so superficiall , and so definitive , before full discovery ; as if intent upon contradiction of her own practice so many yeares , and not startled at so quick a transition , from the unquestionable security of both elements in the H. Eucharist to the hazard of enjoying the intire end and effect of neither , when reduced to one . I am very prone to suspect something like a chasme , or hiatus here , a defect in transcript of the Declaration published in her Highnesses name , which Mounsieur Maimburg best knowes wherewith it should be , and , in fidelity to the trust reposed in him , ought , if so , to be made compleat ; Howsoever , to let it pass from hand to hand , as delivered to us , and to wait upon her R. H. so immediately as she leads the way from her Closet to the publike Schooles , I can not but much commend the early exercise of her skill and prudence , in selecting that part of the question which best will bear discussion , and arresting her upon assurance of his word , who never did , nor , being Truth it self , can ever break his promise ; For no notice at all is taken , how many yeares the Church persisted in submission to the express words of our Saviours institution , without substracting or altering ought in the celebration of this H. Sacrament ; Whence Bishop Iewell sayes , the Question that standeth between us is moved thus , Whether the Holy Communion at any time , within the space of six hundred years after Christ , were ever Ministred openly in the Church unto the People under one kind . Repl. to Mr. Hard. Ans. pag. 96. Which extent of time he might have drawn out much further , by the concession ( among others ) of Cassander , a man professing himself a Roman Catholique , though of wonderfull modesty , moderation , and learning , sayes Bishop Mountagu , whose words are these , as by his Lordship cited ; It is manifest , that , in administration of the sacred Sacrament of the Eucharist , the Universall Church of Christ untill this day , and the Western or Roman Church , for more then 1000 yeares after Christ , especially in their solemn and ordinary dispensation of this Sacrament , did exhibit and give unto all faithfull Christians not one only , but both the kinds of Bread and Wine , as it is most clear and evident out of innumerable testimonies of the old Writers , both Greek and Latine , which I can make good , &c. This he did in part , and the rest we may safely take upon his honest word , and credit ; and 300 yeares more then he voucheth upon Bishop Mountagu's , who saith after him too , This is every where the custome in all the World unto this day , but in the Roman exhorbitant Church ; and was not quite abolished in that Church , till about 1300 yeares after Christ ; and by much art , colluding , and fine forgery , was retained from being cast out of that Church , in the late Conventicle of Trent , onely kept in for a faction , but mightily oppos'd by learned , honest , and conscionable Catholiques ; Whereupon this resolute and worthy Prelate joynes issue with all Papists living , That it never was otherwise used in all the Church of God , for above 1000 yeares after Christ ; And , that if all the Papists living prove the contrary , he will subscribe to all Popery , Ans. to the Gagger , ch . 36. which is fair enough . So that I shall need call in no more help upon this account , except I may that observation of Bishop Taylor and others , That the Primitive Church did excommunicate them that did not receive the holy Sacrament in both kinds . Pref. to Diss. Pag. 5. I return , therefore to her Highnessess argument drawn from the promise , and veracity , or fidelity of Christ to make it good ; Which promise being not particular , not restrained to his Sacramental presence , upon which we differ ; much less limitted to the Patriarchate of Rome , and that under the name or notion of his Universal Church , exclusive of all other Christians not taken into her communion ; he left her free , at her own hazard , to commit sacriledge in this kind as in divers other , and to withdraw her self from him before ever he withdrew from her ; and to afford his fuller presence by both representatives elsewhere , among a greater number of Christians , by computation , then those within her pale or Communion , in both kinds of this H. Sacrament united , altho' in some other doctrines , ceremonies , and customes , or national , or Provincial , civical , or rural , or in other dissonancy whatsoever , more , or less , divided ; But her H. had already changed her measures with her Religion , and was already principled a new by her good Priest , and not permitted to look back upon us unto whom for ever she had bid adieu . By this time , no doubt , she was taught to say , That Christ assured us , The Holy Sacrament , ( though but a Wafer ) containeth his flesh and blood , because the Church hath at length declared , he , or it , shall be so understood ; Else we know not where to find any words of Christ that import the real subsistence of both elements in one , wine in bread , or bread in wine ; eating his blood , or drinking his flesh ; His Institution was otherwise , and so was , accordingly , the practice of the Church for 1300 years together ; And Dr. Cressey confesseth Exom . Pag. 602. This is not a matter of Doctrine , but meer practise ; The Church sayes not , it is unlawful to take it in both kindes ; Nor do we know , where Christ ever sayd , It is lawful , or allowable , to take it but in one ; Extraordinary Cases come not under consideration here , and therefore he might have refrained to mention either the sick , or antipathetick people . As the Councel of Basil ought to have granted the poor Bohemians their dispensation , without so hard I say not onely , but most impious condition , if in their Consciences they were otherwise perswaded , as is believed , they were ; I shall transcribe it from Archbishop Laud , Conf. pag. 198. — That it may be lawfull for them to receive the Sacrament as Christ commanded them , but not unless they will acknowledge ( most opposite to Truth ) that they are not bound by Divine Law to receive it in both kindes . At this rate our departed Dutchess might very well undertake for Christ's both promising and performing , when her good Preist , ( whom now she must say after ) has the like effrontery as others to make him say what they will ; Like the Heretick Severus in Anastasius Sinatia , who maintained it lawfull , and even necessary , according to occasions , and emergent heresies , to alter and change the Doctrines of Christ : and the Cardinal of Cusa affirmed it lawfull diversly to expound the Scriptures according to the times . See Bishop Taylor , Reall Pres. Sect. 3. Where his Lordship very pertinently observes , That in the sixth Chapter of St. John's Gospell is earnestly pretended , that our Saviour taught the mystery of Transubstantiation ; but with some different opinions ; — — And yet very many of the Romanists affirm , That in this Chapter Christ does not speak of sacramental or oral manducation , or of the Sacrament at all ; And Bellarmine going to excuse it , sayes in effect , That they did not do it very honestly , for he affirms , that they did it , that they might confute the Hussites , and the Lutherans , about the Communion under both kinds : And if it be so , and not be so , as it may serve a turn , It is so for Transubstantiation , and it is not so for half-Communion ; we have but little reason to rely upon their Judgment , or Candor , in any exposition of Scripture . And here sayes Archbishop Laud , their building with untempered mortar appears most manifestly , For they have no shew to maintain this , but the fiction of Thomas of Aquin , That he which receives the Body of Christ , receives also his Blood per concomitantiam , by concomitancy ; because the Blood goes alwaies with the Body ; of which Term Thomas was the first Author I can find , Conf. p. 198. Who was born , says Bellarmine , Anno 1224. and died Anno 1274. And as he was the first that invented it , so the Councel of Constance was the first that decreed it , after the year 1400. sayes my Lord of Derry , in his Answer to Mounsieur de la Militiere . But be the invention whose it will , Bishop Taylor sayes , it is a new whimsie of theirs , which will not serve their turn ; for which he gives four reasons , which are to be found in the forecited Section . And the Bishop of Derry speakes slightly of it , and good reason why , because we need it not , being secure without it . Let what will become of Concomitance , sayes he , whilest we keep our selves to the Institution of Christ , and the Universall practice of the Primitive Church . p. 92. But I know , his Lordships Christian charity was ever such , as , not to condemn so many millions of devout Souls , as , after the Councell of Constance , if not after the more early invention of Thomas Aquinas , neither had , nor could have , participated the H. Sacrament of the Altar otherwise then under one kind , ( as at that time was , and ever since has been the standing Decree , or Practice , of the Latine Church ) to all the ill effects and unhappy consequences of a perpetuall profanation and sacriledge in a half-Communion ; the fruition and benefit but of a meer Skeleton , a bloodless carkass , nor vivified , nor vivifying body of Christ ; which carrieth horrour in the very conception , and , where beleeved , utter affrightment from all future so imperfect , so insignificant , if not altogether a null-participation ; I am well - assured , neither of their Lordships were unacquainted with that special Treatise upon this subject written by the pious Cassander , Dignissimus lectu , A book most worthy the reading , sayes Grotious , to whose judgement our moderate Divines are prompt enough favourably to attend ; beside what Modrevius hath in his on the same Argument , Vid. H. Gr. Annot. ad Consult . Cassand : Artic. 21. where he shews , how easily this difference might be accorded , were it not for the sin of Sacriledge so fiercely laid to the charge of the Roman Church , in denying the Cup to the Laiety , Which Luther , Melanchthon , and Bucer , three leading men in the Reformation , thought need not discourage well prepared Communicants from receivng the Sacrament in one kind , which might be done , they thought , without sin . What may be replyed to this , sure enough , that great Doctor , and amphibious Calvinist , Andr. Rivet ( on whom I affix that Epithet , because of his living so long in France and Holland , whence he contracted a perfect knowledge of all that Sect in either Nation had to urge in any point of Controversie against all others in Communion with the Church of Rome ) had in readiness what apologies could be made for those three too indulgent Patrons of the Reformation , which he seperately , and singly , thus allegeth . 1. That Luther , when he came fresh from the Papacy , confessed , se fuisse Monachum & Papistam insanissimum ; That he had been a Monk , and a most mad Papist , ( I think it was but by dilucid intervalls , when he and his rigid followers became the soberest party of the Protestants , ) and requested therefore , that his writings might be read with commiseration ; no wonder then that he saw not alltogether at one prospect or intuition . Certainly , if he thought it Sacriledge in good earnest , and properly so called , he could not but know it , at first sight , to be a sin ; and the good Doctors apology in his behalf is but weak , and accordingly the learned Grotius , in his turn , takes no notice of it . What more for Luther Dr. Rivet addes , Gr. Disc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 375. That he had brought in excuse his infirmity , and , as it were , infancy , and that , when his mind was more illuminated , he learned to be wise , mends not the matter much ; it takes not off what Grotius affirmes , at first he said . 2. Let us therefore see what more he can say for Melanchthon ; To shew his better opinion in the Case , he remits us to some select particles of his Writings , where he expostulates about Christs Institution , which being in generall for the whole Church , he demands , why one of the species , or kindes , is taken from part of the Church , whereof the Romanists gave many reasons , such as they were , in likelihood the same then , as since , which how well they will hold , is still the question whereof anon , This he confesseth , Melanchthon added afterward , se Ecclesiam excusare , quae hanc injuriam pertulit ; that he excus'd the Church which suffer'd the injurie ; and that 's well enough , for we are on the suffering side ; Rivet brings up the reer , and passeth his word , That yet Melanchthon did not excuse those , that forbad not onely , but excommunicated , such as us'd the Cup ; who said he did ? not Grotius any where ; as I remember ; Who liked well enough where it could be had , and no order of the Church wherein he was matriculated , interposed to the contrary that the H. Sacrament should be administred in both kindes , whereof as himself participated , when among them whose use it was ; so , it may be supposed , he advised his Family to do the like by choice , in a Countrey , where both were practised , and a third profession preferr'd to both , as in France ; For when at Paris , I officiated at the honorable Residents , Sir Richard Brownes , his widow , & daughter , with a third Lady of quality , who understood little of our language , after admission asked , communicated in both with us , according to the forme , and ceremonie of the knee prescribed by our Church . Concerning M. Bucer , Rivet answers directly , nothing to what by Grotius was alledged , but diverts his Reader another way , to the 74 th . Chapter of his Defense of the Colonian Reformation : which is a usuall shift of his , though imputed by him in this very question , to his more plain-dealing Antagonist ; But what find we there , whither he sends us ? why , much after the rate as in Melanchthon ; we find that Bucer sayes ; Quod alteram speciem Sacramenti in genere auferre , grave Sacrilegium est . That to take away from all Christians in generall , either species of the Sacrament , is grievous Sacriledge ; whereas Grotius denies frequently , that they do it , but in severall cases , both of persons , Nations , and Countries , grant it for the asking ; and they that will not ask it , may go without it , whose fault is it if they do ? And what have we to do with the conditions any foreign Church puts upon the Members of it ? which I believe was my Lord of Derry's meaning , who , perhapps , on very good reserved reason , had as little mind to answer positively , were the quaestion thus put , as Dr. Rivet . Do you beleive , or not , that whole Christ is present , where by order of any Church , which beleives not our Saviours Institution , or Precept , to be so peremptory as we do , either element or species , is separated from the other ? My opinion is , Mr. Bucer so well as others would have been silent in the case , who , in all his Writings I have met with , that relate to the H. Eucharist , useth and adviseth speciall caution against humane thoughts , sensible imaginations , logicall or philosophicall arguments and deductions , flying up above all such on the wings of Fayth , after an humble resignation of his Reason , which he confesseth alltogether uncapable to comprehend in the least , this inscrutable , inaccessible mystery in the veil . To some part of this purpose , peradventure , may be reducible those two Axioms in his Exomolog . N. 10. and 14. which I shall transcribe for the consideration of the learned , without interpreting to the meer English Reader . Num. 10. Omnes igitur sensibiles mundi imaginationes , omnis cogitatio loci aut continui aut contigui , aut commixtionis , ab hac communione & unitate removendae sunt , admirandaque est in verbo Dei apprehensa , & ex effectis ejus , operibus novi hominis , suspicienda , pensitanda & fruenda . Num. 14. Cavendum est , ne praeceptum Domini dilucidum ubique illuminator habentibus oculos fide , ullis superstitionis grandiloquentijs obscuremus . Rursus autem cavendum est , ne pondus , majestatem mysteriorum Christi , quae spiritus sanctus credenda magis , quam scrutanda ( nostra quidem ratione ) proposuit , iminuamus interpretationibus , quae magis ex nostris proficisuntur cogitationibus , quam ex ipsis Dei verbis , & natura mysteriorum ejus : Which in sense seems to accord with that of St. Augustine , cited by Bishop Iewel , Def. Apol. p. 220. Rerum Absentium Praesens est Fides , & rerum quae foris sunt , intus est Fides : & rerum , quae non videntur , videtur Fides . And now I have mentioned Bishop Iewel , ( both Grotius and Rivet being foreigners ) I judge it very pertinent and seasonable here to transcribe what the said learned and Orthodox Bishop hath left us of his judgement impartial concerning those three great Patrons and Promoters of the Reformation in this point . It being alleged by Mr. Harding , That Luther writeth to them of Bohemia these very words Quoniam pulchrum quidem esset , utraque specie Eucharistiae uti , & Christus hac in re nihil tanquam necessarium praecepit : praestaret pacem & unitatem , quam Christi ubique praecepit , sectari , quam despecietus sacramenti contendere . Where as it were a fair thing to use both kinds of the Sacrament , yet for that Christ herein hath commanded nothing , as necessary , it were better to keep peace and unity , which Christ hath every where charged us withal , then to strive for the outward kindes of the Sacrament . To this our Bishop maketh answer ; The words that Luther wrote to them of Bohemia , were written by him before God had appointed him to publish the Gospel . And when Mr. Harding ( according to the Bishops supposition ) urgeth his saying opposite to the former , thus , Si quo casu Consilium statueret , &c. If in any case the Councel would so ordain , we would in no wise have both the kinds , but even then , in despite of the Councel , we would have one kind , or neither of them , and in no wise both ; and hold them for accursed , whosoever by authority of such a Councel would have both . The Bishop makes this fair apology for him . There was nothing further off from Luther's mind then upon any determination of any Councel , to minister the Sacrament under one kind , and so to break Christ's Institution into halfes . But he thought it not meet , that God's truth immortal should hang of th'autority of a mortal man , and stand for true no further , then it should please a man to allow of it . This was the thing that D. Luther misliked , and thought intollerable . And therefore he said , he would have God's word received , only because it is God's word , and spoken by him , not because it is authorized by a Councel : and if the Councel would allow the Ministration in one kind , then , he said , he would use Both , because Christ in his Institution appointed Both. But if the Bishops in the Councel would agree upon Both kinds , as a matter standing wholly in their pleasures , as though they had full power to controle , or to ratifie the will of God , then he said , he would have no regard unto the authority of such a Councel , that setteth it self above God , but rather would use one kind only , or none at all . This latter part I understand not how Luther could make good , nor how he could be free from arrogancy , wherewith Mr. Harding chargeth him , though for the credit of our first Reformer , the Bishop takes little notice of it ; for I perfectly understand not , how the parallels that follow , of St. Paul , the Emperour Tiberius , and the Prophet Esai run in an even line with Luthers Case . Mr. Harding next would prove Luthers from that opinion of Melanchthon , who had been Luther's Scholar , and his saying this ; Sicut edere suillam , aut abstinere a suilla , sic alterutra signi parte uti , medium esse . That as it is a thing indifferent to eate swines flesh , or to forbear swines flesh , so it is also to use which part of the ligne a man listeth Bucer also , saith he , is of the same opinion ; Ad controversiam , quae est de una aut utraque specie , tollendam , &c. That the controversie of for the one or both kindes , may be taken away , it shall be very well done ; that holy Church made it free to receive the Sacrament in one or both kinds ▪ yet under such condition , as hereby no occasion be given to any body , rashly to condemn the use , which the Church hath so long time kept , nor to judge one another . So that Melanchthon and Bucer , he sayes accompted it as a thing indifferent . To which the Right worthy Bishop makes a more ingenuous answer then did D. Rivet to Grotious , about the same point and persons , which is this . Indeed these godly learned men , when they saw that through the malice of their adversaries , they could not obtain that Christ's Institution might universally be received , yet they desired at the least it might be left free without restraint , for every Church to do therein , as they should think good , and that without murmure , or offence of others . And thus far forth their desire was , it might be judged free : not that they thought , Christ had not ordeined the Sacrament to be ministred unto the people in both kinds , or that in it selfe it is indifferent : but that the faithful of God might indifferently , and freely use it without controlement , and that it should not be judged Heresie , to do as Christ had commanded . If I may after all , be allowed to utter freely a word or two of my own opinion , it shall be this in general , without restraint , or particular regard to this difference , or indifference , about one , or both kinds in the administration of the B. Sacrament . If the Church of England had improved , as she might , her first Lutheran Reformation ( so far as Lutheran it was , or justifiably might have been ) without permitting Calvin , one of another spirit then the meeker and more wary Melachthon and Bucer to put in his foot , our controversies had been fewer , our people steadier , and our domestick peace , at least , by much more entire ; It is that Presbyterian Colloquintida that hath spoiled all , the weed that Geneva sent us , and thither we must remit it , there to take what root it will , or we shall never be at quiet but in our graves , if there , which may well be doubted . I proceed somewhat further to such cases , as on all sides are acknowledged of necessity , in abstemijs & aegrotis , in abstemious and sick persons , the former of which are dispensed with for the wine , and the latter for either species , as they are affected ; for some have such a drought in their jawes and pallate , as they can eat no Bread ; others so much offended at the fumes of Wine , as they nauseate the very smell . Here Grotius puts the question home , being resolved to extort an answer ; Interim negare non audet , &c. presuming , Dr. Rivet dares not deny , but , in the foresaid cases , especially , that of the sick the Sacrament was received entirely , though administred but in one kind ; which deny he does not ; nor indeed well can he the argument drawn from thence , where any Church hath published a prohibition of the Cup ; for without doubt it will be owned , that the words of consecration made it a Sacrament in the sick mans case ; and why the same words alike pronounced by a Priest , in the other , should not have the same effect , will be hard for Dr. Rivet to assign a satisfactory reason ; The little evasions he seemes to make are not such as his Adversary will permit himquietly to go away with , as the rarity of one instance , or frequency of the other , but few are sick , to the many , the innumerable multitudes of them , that from age to age have been denied the Cup by the Church of Rome ; But the sick have it , the other element , in voto & desiderio , in votive wish , and desire why the healthy should not have the like fervency of devotion for what they want , who can tell the cause , or not condemn 'em for their luke-warm indifferency ? or not pitty such of them , who , if not persuaded , they had the whole , would rest content with a half - communion ; though Bellarmine be so courteous as to afford 'em comfort , that its better for them to participate of an imperfect Sacrament then none at all . Esti enim Sacrificium sit imperfectum sine utraque specie , tamen praestat imperfectum habere , quam nullum . But after all this contest against Sacriledge , the violating Christs Institution and positive command , the separation of his blood from his body , the riffling and robbing so many Christian soules of their hereditary right , when of age , or ju●●ement , and otherwise prepared duly to take possession of it ; who would have thought that 〈◊〉 Rivet , of all men , should abate the value of that prize he had so much contended for , placing it in a lower rank of those motives , by which , separation was made from Rome , and Protestancy , atchieved with Fire and Sword ? Neque tamen haec unquam fuit potissima ratio , cur ab Ecclesia Romana secessionem fecerint Ecclesiae Reformatae ; one it was indeed of the number ; but many more there were of greater moment , plures alias fuisse , & majoris momenti ; which he well knew , sayes the Doctor , that made the objection , Apologet. ss . 87. but he well knew withall , as we have likewise known , to our future terrour , that for none of those momentaneous motives , ( nor , perhapps for alltogether of the rest ) was more blood shed , more lives lost , and devastation made every where , as one or other party prevailed , then for this alone ; which , the pious peace-maker thought , might much better have been saved , and so the unity of the Church , without that rupture , have been preserved , the contrary whereunto he , good man ! lamented sadly ; Illos vero miseror , qui propter symbolum sanguinis Christi , tantum sanguinis per illum sanguinem redemti amarunt effundere , let them interpret it , whom he pittieth , as most concerned in it . Vot . pro Pace . pag. 81. Now , it would be worth enquiry , were it not a business of more length then what I am about will well permit ; Why the Church of Rome is so obstinate in the case , if so she be , which some endeavour to qualifie , to the dissatisfaction of a greater number , in a greater part of Christendome , then are those in communion with her , and to the hazard among them of so many soules , who , meerly in compliance , or fear of censure , do they know not what , doubting , if not denying , within themselves , that to be a Sacrament which they receive , and consequently , if it be , or be not , going away , without the effect of it for want of fayth , or for having too much presumption upon a moiety of Divine Institution . Our great Apologist Bishop Iewell tells us , their own Doctors Alphonsus de Castro , and Iohn Gerson , have laid them out in this wise particularly , and at large ; The danger of sheadding : The carrying from place to place : The fouling of the Cupps : The trouble of men's Beards : The Reserving for the Sick : The turning of the Wine into Vinegar : The engendring of Flees : The Corruption , or Putrifaction : The Lothesomeness that may happen , for so many to Drink of one Cupp : The impossibility of providing one Cupp , that may be sufficient to serve all the People ; In some places Wine is dear , in some other places the Wine will be frome . These , Mr. Harding , be the fairest and greatest of your good causes . Def. of Apol. P. 318. And to these such as they are , that good Bishop replies nothing , but after enumeration leaves them to the Readers censure . Bishop Taylor takes notice but of one , which Bellarmine suggests about Lay-mens Beards , which he sayes , is as ridiculous , as the Doctrine it self is unreasonable ; and if they would shave Lay-mens Beards , as they do the Clergy , it would be less inconvenience then what they now feel ; and if there be no help for it , they had better lose their Beards , than lose their share of the Blood of Christ. Collect. p. 469. Alike answer , it is supposed , might be given to the rest , which having no more weight in them require no better . D. Rivet sayes , they are of no moment , futile all , quas Modrevius exacte refellit , and exactly refuted by Modrevius , whose word we will take for it , and trouble our selves no further . Only because Bishop Iewel in his review of Gerson , adds one particular in his Reply ; before overseen , or omitted in his Defence , Viz. the incidence of the Palsie , which , if beyond what the Physicians call a tremour , may have somewhat of moment in it , and more or less weight with us , who have a due veneration for the Elements , after Sacramental Consecration , We may so far consider it as to say , it endures not the test , because being incident so well to the Priest , as the people , an expedient should have been found that might equally have secured both , or no notice taken of either , but God's providence , for preventing , or mercy for pardoning be relyed on , who foresaw in every particular inconvenience what hath been found , or can possibly be apprehended , and yet Christ himself instituted the administration in both kinds . But to return once again to her R. H. by whom this difficulty was more easily digested , and determined according to the decree and practice of the Church of Rome ; she is pleased , it seems , to declare , that she would not permit her self , were she able , ( as she will not pretend to be ) to dispute the verities of more grandeur , nor ingage in any other point , beyond some few words for entertainment of discourse , and that without any contestation at all , but simply to express the motives and reasons of her conversion ; Which temper of moderation had she been pleas'd to use and observe when with us , toward which the upright open dealing of the two Bishops seemed to induce her , ( whose unbiassed judgement I am sorry to see outdone , or undervalued , by the witty artifice , or bolder practice , of a single Priest ) her H. might have lived longer , as the only one of her Mother ( on whose two breasts , from infancy , she had depended for her spiritual alimony , and thriv'd well by it ) the choice one of her that bare her ; the daughters , whensoe'r they saw her , would have blessed her ; As a wall might she have been , with a Palace of silver built upon her , as the wisest of Kings allegirizeth most elegantly in his Song of divine love . I draw now toward the Conclusion , the last Paragraph of her Declaration . P●atteste Dieu &c. Her H. solemn attestation of God , that she had never thought of changing her religion , could she have beleeved ( and why could she not ? ) that salvation might have been had here , where was her birth and education , is a very severe sentence on King and People , whom she left behind her , not so much as to allow a bare possibility , what soever in fine , and fact might have become of all ; God be praised , who hath given us more charity toward the worst of them that have least deserv'd it of us ; And God give her R. H. too , in her present state , all the mercy , that may be , by permission , wished her , before , and at , the great Day , and above all , that crowning pardon ( as Bishop Taylor calls it ) which surmounts so much the absolution of her good Priest , ( so joyfully pronounced over her , when she first did throw her self into the armes of his all-comprehensive Church ) as is the highest Arch of heaven from the very centre of the earth . What follows , at last , being left at her Highnesses judgement , will & pleasure , ought to have little contradiction from her quondam Chaplain , who , in good manners , will but lightly glance , or gloss upon it . 1. That she beleeved it not necessary for her to declare in publick , That it was neither interest , nor prospect of honours , nor of the fading and perishable goods she might have by it ; that carryed to their Church , since on the contrary , all the world , she sayes , needs must know , that , by the change of Religion , she exposed her self to the peril of losing both her friends and credit ; I am none of the world that know it , nor do I believe them to have been her Highnesses friends , who would be lost upon account of her passing from a state of sad perplexity and disquiet to one of certain assurance , satisfaction , and peace within , if so she found it , Other friendship in , or with the world , is enmity with God ; Religion is not to be chosen , or adhaer'd to , against perswasion of Conscience , be it right or wrong , by the deceitful weights or measures of worldly friendship ; The standard of it is more sublime , and credit ought not to be so considerable , as a good conscience , in the case , which I have charity to hope she had , and exercised , without prejudice , or partiality in her new choice . 2. [ Pay balance et examine plusteurs fois &c ] that her R. H. had balanced and examined often , Whether it were not more expedient for her , to conserve her friends , her rank , and credit in the Court , by continuing in the exercise of the Religion profess'd and practised by the English Church , then to abandon all those things , upon a view and hope of happiness in a future life . I am sorry , I confess , for that plusicurs fois ; that the ballance , if the beam were true , ( which her self was concern'd to look to ) should be taken in hand more then once , ( if once had not been too much ) and expedience put into the scale ; for , alas ! what are the light feathers of Fortune , and Fame , or Reputation , to the weight of Eternall Glory ? what 's a Pebble to the Pearle of price ? what the whole world to the worst soul in it , when true merchandize is to be made , but a cruell purchase of false felicity ? And therefore if , for the time , the eyes of her mind were darkened , her understanding clouded , great , indeed , was God's mercy , in that , so on a sodain , he became unto her as the light of the morning , when the Sun ariseth , a morning without clouds ; as the tender Grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after Rain . 2 Sam. 23. 4. after the many teares she had dropt , in the anxiety of her mind , and dejection of her spirit , so as she felt no pain , no difficulty to make that choice , that so decretory choice , and with what advantage , good Lady ! before this time she knowes to the full . 3. That the only trouble remaining upon her spirit was an apprehension she had of what dire influence her change might have upon the poor Catholiques of this Countrey ; what they might suffer upon account of her conversion ; praying that God would give her the grace to suffer patiently with them the disgraces and afflictions of this life , for the meriting of life eternall . Indeed the malice , or zeale ( if it be so ) of the Mobile , or common people , is seldome moderated by reason , or measured out by Conscience , how much soever pretended by them which might in this case , so well as others , have caused the floods to rise , and lift up their voyce , which , when they do so , by God's permission , we , who had made no such choice , or change , felt to our cost ; But ; God be praised , we since have found , and so might her R. H. too , if she had survived , that the Lord , who dwelleth in Heaven is mightier ; and under the sacred roof of the Kings Palace , in the midst of those feares she might have hoped for at least personall protection ; And all her Catholiques , who had taken the oathes , might have been secure of theirs , keeping within the limits and boundaries of the Law , while His Majesty shall keep power enough in his hands to curb and subdue all riotous and rebellious people ; which power may he never part with , nor want a greater at any time , for the safety and honour of his Royall Person , Crown , and Kingdome , according as the necessity , or expediency , of all , or any , his State-affairs may require . Here my Reflexions end , upon her Royall Highnesses solemn Declaration , dated at St. Iames's , the eighth of August , 1670. Mounsieur Maimburg's fine Rhetoricall Epiphonema , or grand Acclamation , yet remaines , which in civil complement , must not pass away without my notice and fit respect . [ Une declaration fi forte , si raisonnable , & si sensee , &c. ] A Declaration , sayes he , so strong , so reasonable , and so full of sense , by this admirable Princess , who instructeth us with so much sincerity , which have been the true motives of her conversion ; and who , in the sequel , is dead holily in the Catholique faith , The strength of it will best appear , when the arguments and stanch or stay'd opinions of those Worthies I have assembled in my Reflexions , the main pillars of the Church her Highnesses left are weakened , and laid in their ruines ; The reasonableness , when the vizard , her good Priest put upon it , is taken off ; And the sense , when the sandy supposition , upon which the pretence of all is ambiguously founded , shall be well-confirmed , and with full assurance settled . That she died holily , who lived religiously , I will not doubt ; but that she died , after due consideration , in the precincts of the Roman Church , I confess I do ; In the fayth of it that she could not , I am pretty well assured , if but because her weakness would not allow her sufficient opportunities , in the time of decumbency , to consult her judgment , her disturbance being so great , with little , or no , intermission ; less to hear , read , and discourse , with pauses requisite , what might be of strength sufficient ( if ought could be ) for an evincement , and prevaile for a free resignation of her soul to the sense , and conduct , of her good Priest ; But , to render the Declaration , as taken with the best advantage , so usefull , so powerfull , as by its precedent and greatest efficacy , to convert all sorts , and degrees , of Protestants , whatsoever , more then all disputes by tongue , or penn , in which every Heretick , when pressed with argument , takes no care but to find evasion , and get away so clear , as he may perswade others he was not vanquish'd , is , in my opinion , to magnifie it overmuch , and to undervalue many learned and plain-dealing Disputants , many judicious and impartiall Readers , whom he will needs have comprehended in that equivocall name of Protestant , as over-facilely to part with their Fayth , and Reason too , and pusillanimously to yeild their Christian liberty to his blind obedience ; wherein yet I leave the Gentleman to enjoy his fancy , and others to like submission and imitation as in what they shall find themselves by just authority or argument fairly and clearly convinced , at their own hazard . That , in effect , he sayes , There is no Protestant , but who may find a like origine of his heresie , in some passion of despite , jealousie , ambition , or libertinage , ( by which word , and somewhat more , I suspect Mounsieur Maimburg may have had a finger in forming this Declaration , ) toucheth not us in England , who understand the motives and method of our Reformation betters , and our selves too , then to be concerned in any errour or heresie , ( were it so ) at this distance , we being no Nominals , as the Mounsieur and his friends would have us , from Luther , Calvin , Zuinglius , or any other ; but Reformed Realls , in the first notion , that is , according to the original Doctrine , and Discipline of the Ancient Church , the Records whereof were laid open before Christians of better principles , by which to recover that purity , which the Church of Rome had lost , and to get clear from those errours they had introduced , of later date . Therefore , although , in compliance with Mounsieur's advice , such of our English as understand intirely the establishment of our Church , and true state of the controversy between them and us , should read this excellent Declaration in cold blood , et sans pre occupation , without any prejudice ( as in earnest I have done severall times , since I took this task in hand ) will not judge it a thing so monstrous , une chose monstrease , that what he calls the Catholique , but meanes the Roman fayth , which , in above 400 years before Queen Elizabeth , and but few less before that passive re-establishment by Queen Mary , had no such settlement as he pretends , by the generall consent of our Nation , but ( what our Histories will make appear , ) were offering many times , at a deliverance from Popish thraldome , besides , at an orderly Reformation of some doctrinall and practicall corruptions in the Religion of those times , should be abolished by that good Queen , upon better termes then her sole and single interest , ( for the interest of some deproedatours about her I will not excuse ) ; And that we take not her for the first foundress , but the Primitive Fathers and learned Doctours in the five or six first Centuries , for the Confounders of the ancient , and , consequently , of our English Church , as it stands at distance from the Roman . And so I bid a Dieu to Mounsieur Maimburg . I must now turn about to Mr. Iones , whom , if I should decline , and offer silently to slip away , or withdraw my hand from the table , I am sure , he would pull me by the sleeve , if not the tip of my ear , for not regarding his politicall , or morall , but most illogicall , inferences from the foresaid Declaration . There are but few , sayes he , to be found , so forsaken of God , and their own Reason , as are not able to discern and allow , that Secret Enemies are far more dangerous to all Men and Communities , than open and professed : and that Men hate to be betrayed worse then to be destroyed If you intend , Sir this , or what may be the extract of it , as a Major proposition , you had done well in laying an Assumption to it , ( since Dolus latet in generalibus ) and not run away with a Conclusion , one of the praemises to which is lost ; When you put your argument in better form , and dare deal in explicite syllogismes , ( for enthymems are little other then mental reservations , which you know in whom you hate ) you shall be fairly answered by an express denial , or distinction from what you argue , which will put you to further proof . Declining therefore such scholastick doings , I must Socratically ask , according to the several hypotheses in this Paragraph , 1. What secret enemies you suspect , and upon what ground , either as to seperate Individuals , or Communities in their conjunction ? unto whom ? or what ? If you cannot make out what you would , why leave you e'm not at their own hazard ? knowing that Qui fraudem injustam machinatur alteri , Suo ipse damno antecapit eventum mali . 2. What treachery , or destruction from her Hignesses conference or Declaration , we are to apprehend ? speak out , man , and by no means smother treason , in whom soever it lurkes ; If a new Plot be , give us freely what you have discovered , which may serve as a train to the rest , that none may escape . But you proceed thus , They therefore that countenance , or cover , the Masquerade Enemies of the Church , of the Church of England , prove themselves to be of the same pernicious conspiracy ; the greater they are in Place , and Power , the greater is the danger to the Publick from them , and their detection therefore the greater service and glory . Sententias loquitur — — It is somewhat ominous to be too sententious : The worst of men can speak good Proverbs so well as the wise , until themselves become the subjects of such as they best deserve . Catiline himself , no quaestion , while he was instructing others in the wayes and methods of his close Conspiracy , until it was mature for action , issued out good counsels for the publique peace , and prosperity , being expedite at disguise , and ingenious for Masquerade , from his very youth , subdolus & cujuslibet rei simulator ac dissimulator , the Historian tells us . Having no answer to my former quaestions , I must again to my interrogating , Who are they , Mr. Iones , that do either countenance , or cover ? Be you not brib'd with Sugar-plums to conceal their names , and the Conspiracy they are contriving ; The Mobile will not be raised else , and so you will lose the benefit of a common cry ; And tell , man , what , or of what , you would have detection made , for salus poulis's sake at least , that you fall not into condemnation for breaking the highest Law. Tell me further yet , what glory they are like to gain , proportionate to the service they may do you in the discovery , whether a pension , or a place in the fift or false-hearted Monarchie , or by what other spurious title you mean to distinguish that you are erecting , with such applycation . But her late Highness , it seems , is gone off , I hope you will not say with concealing treason , though you say little less then with reserve of the names of those whom you point at as the Traitors , having not expressed what Bishops those two were in Particular , whom all sober Protestants must look on as the Betrayers of her soul , and this Church . Was not her Ex-Iesuite , think you in the Plot of this concealment , whose principle is for Reserve ? for It seems duty , you say , and fidelity to our Church and Nation , to contribute Intelligence and Observations to detect them farther . I have heard , Sir , that some such Intelligences and Observations , of as high a nature , have been frequently bought and sold ; And so may these too , for ought I know ; but I never yet traffiqu'd in 'em ; you may have 'em about you , but I know of none in this Countrey . Yet , to make amends for my ignorance , or negligence of this sort ; I have more then compensated what her Highness failed in , having expressed , upon this occasion , more then twice two , which shall be twenty , when cause requires , that , by some parasangs , have out-gone those two mischievous Bishops , who e're they were ; And who , I pray are those sober Protestants that dare look upon those I named , as Betrayers of their souls , who made address to 'em for ghostly counsel , and advice about Religion ? much less were they treacherous to our Church , who were the principal supporters , and Protectours , of it ; whose names are well worth your notice , and their books , such as deserve your reading over , more then once ; which done , Mr. Iones , tell me seriously , what false steps they have taken , and wherein it is they have betrayed either Church , or Nation ; Till when lay your hand on your mouth , and speak not evil so unadvisedly , concerning the Ecclesiastical Rulers of the people . But you add , They are not in Reason Fathers who are condemned persons in Law To this calumny you have had my answer , from the very Sages of the Law , who pronounce no sentence of condemnation for speaking truth , and that according to the dictates of the ancient Church , which they appeal to , call you it Popery , or Treachery , or both , or what you will ; it is your ignorance , not their errour , which puts a false gloss upon what they say ; and your zeal for you know not what that inflames your passion and hurries you beyond the bounds of Christian charity and moderation ; so that they have not forfeited their paternal right , or priveledge , by cherishing their children and instructing them in the same paths they had trod themselves , the old paths , wherein is the good way , advising them to walk therein , that they might find rest for their souls P. Ier. 6. 16. As for those that are froward , who say , we will not walk therein , they leave them to their crooked wayes , the wayes of darkness , Prov. 2. since they will not follow the light they have set before them . Yet , you say , the danger and scandal of their ill example is the less , because they never shewed so much Learning and Integrity , as to justifie before the World , their new perswasions , by Pen , or open Practice , or Resignation . A Papist , or a Mahometan , that is sincere and Resolute &c. Since you know not who they are , Mr. Iones , methinks you might have forborne to judge of what they do , or do not , in publick ; and what revenge you bear in mind , you may call in your Party , to exercise upon them whose names are known , and whose Writings many where to be had ; whose opinions are published in Print , and their practises in our Cathedralls , and Royall Chappell 's , to be well attested at this day ; All which being not otherwise to be answered , nor their persons now to be punished , who lie silent in their Graves ; all you can do , when the second time , by the prosperity of the wicked , power shall be in their hands ( which God avert ) will be , to burn their books , wheresoever you meet with them , and , if you have the like malice , the like principles of sacrilegious impiety , as , not many yeares ago some had , do as they did , who scattered the bones of the dead , and threw the Dust of Kings , ( greater Potentates then Bishops ) out of their marble chests , or leaden coffins . And if any thing more can be done to those Popish Prelates , that escapt your judgment , and slipt slyly into their beds of rest , such as Overall , Andrewes , White , Mountagu , Taylor , Bramhall , and the rest of that Babylonish rabble , you being set on hanging in this very Page . Hang them up in Effigie , on the post - fact , as having been false to your Fayth , while they lived , and multiplying still by their books dayly proselytes to Antichrist , perverting , if it were possible , the very Saints themselves . Yet , in more good earnest , Mr. Iones , you see , their perswasions were not new ; They send you to such Antiquity , as , it seemes , you have not conversed with ; and appeale to better authority then their own , to be justified in what they have written ; which you ought to have enquired into , before you had so sharply censured the two Reverend Fathers of our Church , who were guided by the same rule , in what they said , and what they owned to be their private practice ; hoping , perhapps , by that latitude , and ingenious communication , to have induced her R. H. before it might become too late , to a better opinion of our Church , from which they found her wavering , ( if she disguis'd it not ) And for that their plain and sincere dealing , which was as much as any Casuist , or Director , ( even Campanella's Confessour himself ) could do , open the Closet of his breast , and expose the secrets of it to his , or her , best advantage , by whom he is consulted ; for this faithfull discharge of their trust , you are pleas'd to gratifie them no otherwise , then with the most odious , most detested , title of Iudas's amongst our Apostles ( it is well you allow us any such as Apostles in that sacred Order ) and put upon their account the scandal of our present misery , ( wherein you have but a little portion , Sir , beside what you wilfully draw upon your self ) the Redivision of these Kingdomes , the dissenting members of which , since the happy Restauration , never would be obliged by Acts of Oblivion , Pardon , and Indulgence ; nor ever will be united in any Conformity to the Government , Ecclesiasticall , or Temporall , the only bond of our peace , the submissive unity of an humble spirit ; nay , your fears , and fewds , which are made , and multiplied , by the infernal Ghosts , the reascended boutefeaus of Forty - One , must be charged upon these Bishops , and , that I may retrive a line or two , which I let pass in the last Paragraph , These good Bishops , because they will not be perswaded , nor terrified , to give spirituall counsell , contrary to their own Conscience ; because they will not practise openly what is inconsistent with the rule of common prudence , in our circumstances ; nor spontaneously resign their demesnes , and dignities ( for that 's the true intendment of it ) to a brood of insatiate Cormorants , and sacrilegious Seekers , to the still plus-ultra - designing Impropriators , they must cedere de viâ , give place not onely to professed Papists , but to most arrogant , blasphemous , Mahomitans , be termed two - faced Renegadoes , false to their Fayth , and Trust , and Countrey too , because , in reallity , they are true to all . For thus you say , let the Reader have it in your own words . A Papist , or a Mahometan , that is sincere and Resolute in the profession of his errour , shew's more Religion and vertue , than the most Reverend two - fac'd Renegado , that 's false to his Fayth , and Trust , and Countrey , for worldly Interest . And indeed , he that is so false to himself , will hardly be true to any other . Therefore Campanella advises to chuse for Confessor , non qui te diligit , sed qui diligit animam Suam , such who loves his own Soul , not thee . A little releif , at last , you are pleased to afford 'em , by a lifting courtesie , ( so I will call it ) of the burthen , too heavy for them to bear , Multorum manibus — if it should not here be rather Magnatum manibus — — laying part of the guilt upon the shoulders of the Great ones ; whose frailties if they be of eternall permanence , their condition is desperate , never to be repair'd in this World , nor that to come ; for so you write ; To these Iudas's amongst our Apostles is cheifly owing the present misery and Redivision of these flourishing Kingdomes , by new Fears , and Fewds : and not a little , perhapps , to the Eternal Frailties of great ones , that had rather be Pleas'd than Lov'd : How happy were it for the Nation , if such carnal Compliers for the sake of grandeur , were as hatefull to our Princes , as they are to God and the rest of Mankind ? I have no better account to give to God and the World , of the latter part of my life , than some zeal and adventures against such Betrayers , which I have preferred before all worldly Offers and Peace . Their fault , you say , is , because they had rather be pleas'd then lov'd . The truest love , Subjects have for their Princes , is best attested by their obedience , and peaceable disposition ; by whom when so beloved , certainly , they are best pleased , there being no inconsistence at all , but if your meaning be , they had rather be flatter'd , you were as good say , they had rather be destroyed ; which Princes affect so little as do their people , who pretend so much care of their Princes preservation , when , sometimes , they are underhand associating , and contriving their utter ruine . But these great ones , our Princes , you think have a destructive gift of clemency , the stream whereof runs in another chanel then you would have it , and , perhaps , of another colour ; They are out of their Politicks , in making favourites of such , as are undoubtedly hateful to God and mankind , your intelligence is great , if you write what you know ; and if what you do not , you do it like a man of no understanding , to pronounce you know not whom odious to God and mankind , because loved by their Princes , who themselves perhaps expect as little love from your party , as you profess you have from their favourites . So many years are not passed , but that many of us , still surviving , can very well remember , what printed professions of abundant Love and Honour , what Declarations of obedient and Loyal Subjects , with most humble and affectionate Addresses , were made to our late Soveraign , of blessed memory ; what specious promises of erecting his Royal Person , Crown and Dignity , to the very highest pinnacle of glory ; but , withal , we forget not , what hard and immajestick conditions , these fair but fraudulent , tenders were clogg'd with , how they wrested from him not only his favourites but his forts , and deprived him in vote , before they could accomplish it in fact , both of his private solace , and publick strength ; which , in effect , was , not only to unking , but unman , him , and so we all know , that in no better performance it ended , by these several steps of descent ( which I shall not enlarge on ) so incongruous prov'd their Acts to their words , ( when they would not trust him , their liege Lord , and Soveraign , but an upstart Russian , with their Protection ) by reviling , rifling , rebelling , chacing , devesting , restraining , dethroning , beheading , attempting to break the image of his soul , and posthume reputation , in peices , by a malicious , and yet a mercenary Iconoclast , as a Peer of his Realm and a loyal Gentleman can attest from his own mouth , a fellow that ruffled his father out of his estate , while alive , and cheated his Prince of the due reward to his piety , and incomparable Vertue , when , otherwise at rest in his grave . You now plainly see , Mr. Iones , what I reflect on , what a sad unprecedented instance we of these ( then unfortunate ) Islands have had in all the most impious particulars , and aggravations recited , with as much detestation as sorrow , to the perpetual infamy of that forty one , and forty eight , party , with whom I fear you are become over-and-above-familiar ; and so ill as you treat me , somewhat afflicted I am in your own behalf , that you have no better account to give unto God , and the World , of the latter part of your life , then what you spontaneously mention , and little better then boast of , some zeal and adventures , against such Betrayers , ( the character you injuriously give them ) your warm passion , and unnecessary hazard , had been , by much , more laudably exercis'd , and undertaken , against another party-rampant , who have better deserv'd the justice of your title ; And your preference of such fanciful enterprises , to worldly offers and Peace , will bear the empress but of Knight errantry , when led into the Lists where any true valour is to be shewed . Nor ( beleeve me ) will posterity give it any preference to ( if they afford it the like entertainment as our Predecessors have done of ) the Spanish Don in his encounter with the Mill : but Hermes omnia solus , & ter unus ; You alone are all , as you take the conceit , and may you so triumph in your thoughts , as the World may hear no more of your too adventurous exploits , untill you have clear'd your account of the former , which I fear you will not be able to do with that success as you promise your self ; And , if you will take my friendly advice , put your Candel under a Bushell , for alltogether hereafter , and leave not the world with an ill scent whensoever your faint light shall exspire . What I leave in arrear of this Chapter being but a short forme of transition , or preface , to your following impeachment , I pass it over , untill I send you my Finall Answer to your devised Calumnies of Schismaticall Protestanism , De Macedos dis-ingenuous treatment , with other our brabbles , ( so far as any such really were , not in Phantomes ) at Sea and St. Iames , till when I rest SIR , Yours on some better termes , then such usage deserves , RICH. WATSON . FINIS .