An answer to Mr. Dodwell and Dr. Sherlocke, confuting an universal humane church-supremacy aristocratical and monarchical, as church-tyranny and popery : and defending Dr. Isaac Barrow's treatise against it by Richard Baxter ; preparatory to a fuller treatise against such an universal soveraignty as contrary to reason, Christianity, the Protestant profession, and the Church of England, though the corrupters usurp that title. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1682 Approx. 401 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 88 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26860 Wing B1184 ESTC R16768 11733763 ocm 11733763 48440 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Papacy. 2004-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-04 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-05 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-05 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN ANSWER TO Mr. Dodwell and Dr. Sherlocke ; Confuting an Universal Humane Church-Supremacy , Aristocratical and Monarchical ; as Church-Tyranny and Popery : And defending Dr. Isaac Barrow's Treatise against it . By Richard Baxter . Preparatory to a fuller Treatise against such an Universal Soveraignty , as contrary to Reason , Christianity , the Protestant Profession , and the Church of England ; though the Corrupters usurp that Title . LONDON : Printed for Thomas Parkhurst , at the Bible and Three Crowns , at the lower end of Cheapside , near Mercers Chappel , 1682. READER , THough the difference between Mr. Dodwell ( and Mr. Thorndike , and such others ) , and those condemned by them , be very great , I would not have it seem greater than it is . The sum of it is as followeth : 1. Mr. Dodwell thinketh that there is no true Ministry , Church-Sacraments , nor Covenant-right to pardon and salvation , but where there is a Ministry delivering the Sacraments , who were ordained by Bishops ( in his sense of Bishops ) , who had their Ordination from other Bishops , and they from others , by an uninterrupted chain of succession from the Apostles . We know , that by this Doctrine he condemneth , or unchurcheth , not only the Reformed Churches , the Greeks and other Easterns , but the Church of Rome it self , and leaveth no certainty of the very being of any one Church on earth . And we maintain , that the sacred Scripture is the universal Law of Christ , in which he hath described and instituted the office and work of the sacred Ministry , and appointed the way of their continuance in the world , by necessary Qualification , Election , Consent , and ordinarily regular Ordination . That as Presbyters now lay on hands with the Bishop , so senior Pastors are the Ordainers , as the Colledg of Physicians license Physicians , and the Convocation of Doctors make Doctors ( and man generateth man ) . But to avoid contention and division , the Churches have used to make one of these Presbyters or Pastors a President , and partly a Ruler in each Colledg and Church , and given him a Negative voice in Ordinations ; against which we strive not , but maintain , 1. That his consent is not so necessary , as that no one can be a true Presbyter that hath it not . As the Clergy at Rome in Cyprian's days long governed when they had no Bishop ; so if the Bishop be dead , or refuse to ordain , or would ordain none but Here●icks , or uncapable men , or would tyrannize and impose men not consented to , the Ordination is valid that is made without him . And 2. That the true chief Pastor of every particular formed Church , is a true Bishop , though Diocesans should deny it . 3. And that even Ordination it self is necessary but for Order where it may be had , and not to the Being of the Ministry where it cannot be had on lawful terms , no more than Coronation to the King , or publick solemnization to Marriage . 4. And we are assured , that if Regular Ordination were interrupted by death , heresie , refusal , neglect , e. g. at Antioch , Alexandria , Constantinople , Jerusalem , &c. Christs Charter , or Scripture-Law would presently restore it to persons duly qualified , chosen and ordained by the fittest there that can be had . 5. If this were not so ( as multitudes of schismatical and unlawful Popes Ordinations at Rome would be invalid , e. g. John 13. and 21. and 23. and Eugenius 4th deposed as a Heretick by a General Council , &c. ) so every usurping Bishop that pretendeth falsly , that he was himself lawfully ordained , would nullifie Churches , Ministry and Sacraments of all ordained by him . And many have falsly pretended to Orders . 6. And that if men must refuse the Government and Sacraments of all Bishops and Presbyters that do not prove to them a Regular Ordination uninterrupted for 1600. years , all the Ministry on earth may be refused : and none for so doing should be called Schismaticks . I never yet heard or saw a Bishop prove such a succession , nor ever knew one that would take his Oath on it , that he was a true Bishop on such terms . II. Mr. Dodwell thinks that the Presbyters , yea and Bishops , were not given by God. Pag. 60. saith he , But where do they find , that God ever gave Bishops , Presbyters and Deacons ? Where note , that it is of the Office in specie that we speake . But we think that God hath made or instituted the Office and its work . And if he did not , 1. Who did ? If men , was it Clerg-ymen or Lay-men ? If Lay-men , was it Christians or Infidels ? And by what Authority ? Do the children beget the fathers , and yet may not Presbyters propagate their species ? If Clergy-men , who were they ? If not Apostles , or Prophets , or Evangelists , they were none . If these , then it seems the Apostles did it not as Bishops ; for it is the making of the first Bishops that we question . And what the Apostles did ( not as Bishops , but ) as commissioned Apostles , Christ did by his Spirit . And they that will do the like , must have the like Office , Authority and Spirit . If God gave not Bishops , because the Apostles made them , then God gave us not the Scripture , because the Apostles and Evangelists wrote it . And is not this the same or worse Doctrine than that which the Italian Iesuits would have had pass at Trent , against Gods making Bishops or their Office ? And if God gave not Bishops or Presbyters , they that reject them , reject no gift or institution of God. And if men made them , how come they to be essential to the Church ? Did not Christ and his Spirit in the Apostles , institute so much as the Church-essentials ? And if men made Bishops and Presbyters in specie , may not man unmake them ? III. Mr. Dodwell maintaineth , that the power of Presbyters is to be measured by the intention of the Ordainers who give it them , and not by any Scripture-institution , charter or description . We maintain the contrary , that God having instituted and described the Office of Bishops , Pastors , Presbyters , Gods Law in Scripture is the Rule by which the office-power , and obligation , and work in the essentials , must be known . Otherwise , 1. It would be supposed , that God made not the office of Bishops or Presbyters ; which is false . 2. That Ordainers may make new Churches , Bishops or Presbyters in specie ; yea , as many species of them as they shall intend . 3. That they may abrogate or change the ancient species . They may make one office only for preaching , another only for praying , another only for Baptism , another only for the Lords Supper , and others for new work of their own . The Papists themselves abhor this Doctrine . 4. Then no man can know the measure of his Authority , not knowing the intentions of the Ordainers . Perhaps three or ten ordainihg Bishops may have three or ten several intents . 5. Then the Bishop may put down Gods Worship or Sacraments , by limiting the Priests power . 6. It 's contrary to all Ministerial Investitures . The Investing Minister is not the Owner or the Donor , but delivereth possession of what the Owner and Donor contracted for , or gave . If the Archbishop , Crowning the King , would infringe his Prerogative , it 's a Nullity , because he is not the Giver of it ; nor is his intention , but the Kingdoms constitution , the measure of it . If the Priest would make the man whom he marrieth to a woman , no governour of her , it 's a Nullity : for it is not his intent that makes the power . 7. If this were otherwise , I call and call again ( but in vain ) to Mr. Dodwell , and all his party , to tell me , how the Bishops and Priests of the Church of England in the days of Henry the 8th , and Edward the 6th , and Queen Elizabeth came to have power to put down the Mass , to set up the Liturgie , to take down Images , and to reform as they did , when it was certainly contrary to the intention of their Ordainers ? 8. And setting this point together with the other , ( that Ordination of Presbyters is null ) I ask them , ( and ask again , but all in vain ; ) 1. Do not Bishops generate their Species , and make Bishops their equals ? 2. Who then can give his Office to the Archhishop , if he have no Superior in England , unless his Inferiors give it , or you fly to a Forreign Iurisdiction ? 3. Whose Intention is it that giveth power to the Pope , if he be greatest ? Or to the General Council , if it be greatest ? If there be none above them , either God or Inferiours give them their power ? 4. And what if these Inferiours that make Popes , Primates , or Councils , by Intention would take down half their power ? Is it then done ? What self-contradiction and confusion would some men rather run into , than grant Christ to be Christ ? that is , the only Vniversal Head and Legislator to the Church on Earth . IV. Accordingly Mr. D. holdeth , that there is a supreme Authority in man over the Universal Church , from whose intention and sense it is not lawful for us to appeal so much as to the Sacred Scripture , no nor to the Day of Iudgment , for any practice different from them . See his Reply , p. 80 , 81 , 82 , 83 , 84 , 85. Though we hold that no unjust Appeal should suspend the authorised Acts of a Governour , this Doctrine seems to me to be worse than Antichristian , and to put down God. If God indeed be the Vniversal Soveraign Lawgiver , and the final Iudge ; if God be God , and man be man and not above him , to say that we must not obey him before man , and disobey man that commands what he forbids , or that we must not appeal from mans subordinate Law to his supreme Law , nor from mans judgment to his final judgment ; and to say , ( as he and Thorndike do ) that to do so , and practise accordingly , is inconsistent with all Government , are things that I had hoped my ears or eyes should never have seen or heard delivered by a sober Christian. Papists most commo●ly abhor it , save some few Flatterers of the Pope . If ●his be so , a man must not only worship Images , swear to the Pope , and do all that Councils command ; but also curse Christ if the Turkish Rulers bid him , blaspheme God if Heathen Rulers bid him , and condemn all the Martyrs as Rebels that did subvert all Government , by practising contrary to it and appealing to God. And then man must be every where of the Rulers Religion , and do whatever wickedness he commandeth , Dan. 1. and 3.6 . and the Church for three hundred years and more tell us of other kind of Examples . V. Mr. D. holdeth this Absolute Destructive Power to be essentially necessary to the Vnity of the Catholick Church : which is the sum of Thorndike's Book . I would not go further from them or the French , in the point of Vnity , than I needs must . I shall therefore tell you what is our judgment of it . 1. We grant them , that Christ's Church on earth is one , and its Vnity is part of its very essence ( as the Vnity of the parts of a House , Ship , &c. ) 2. We hold that this essential Vnity consisteth in the Vnion of all Christians with Christ , the only unifying Vniversal Head ; and that the Vnity described Ephes. 4.4 , 5 , 6. sufficeth to it , viz. One Body ( of Christ ) one Spirit , one Hope ( of Grace and Glory ) one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one God and Father , &c. And that all this is prescribed in the Gospel , and every true Christian hath all this . 3. That all must endeavour to keep this Vnity in the bond of peace , and to be in every lesser matter of one mind , as far as they can : And the Pastors of the Churches to beautifie and strengthen the Church , by as much concord as they can well obtain . 4. But that perfect concord being the fruit of personal perfection , will never be had on earth : And the differences of the infirm that cannot be cured , must be tolerated in tender Brotherly Love. And to persecute or destroy Christians , who unite in Christ and the Essentials of Christianity , because they are not of one size of knowledg , and differ in lesser things , is the work of Satan the Enemy of Love , and the great Destroyer . 5. We believe that Synods or Councils are so far good and useful , as they are needful to the foresaid strength and concord of the Churches : But that they are for Agreement , and not for direct Regiment , as Archbishop Usher was wont to say , Councils are not for Government of the several Bishops by the Majority , but for Consultation and Concord : And they that cannot in all things consent to them in Accidentals , or lesser matters , are not therefore cut off from Christ's Vniversal Church : But it is a fault peevishly and causelesly to dissent and be singular , a breach of Christ's general Law , of doing our work as much as we can in Love and Concord . Plainly , Reader , do you know the difference between the Senate of Rome or Venice , and the Assembly at Nimmegen , Ratisbone , or Frankford ? The said Senate is una persona Politica , though plures naturales , and hath the Supreme Government by Vote in Legislation and Iudgment ; and it is Rebellion there to disown their Power , and a Crime not to obey it . At Nimmegen , Ratisbone , &c. many Princes or their Agents meet for Peace and Christian Concord . It is a sin for any of them to be causelesly against any Vote that is useful to those ends . But no one of them , nor the major Vote , is Governour of the rest ; nor is any one to be dispossest of his Dominion , that seeth reason to dissent . This is plain truth ; Though Dr. Sherlock find fault with the Learned and Iudicious Dr. Barrow , for asserting it in his Treatise against the Papacy . And it being not Regiment but Concord that is the end of Synods ( as over Bishops ) there is no more use than possibility of an Vniversal Council , or one Vniversal Colledge ; But the necessity and aptitude of Councils for strengthning concord , must measure their extent . What Mr. D's opinion is of the degree of corporal punishment , which he would have used to his ends , I know not : Mr. Thorndike is against Death and Banishment . For my part , the two greatest things that have alienated me from Popery are ; 1. That it cherisheth Ignorance , and I am sure that is the soil of all wickedness ; God , Christ , the Spirit and Scripture , are Light ; and Satan is the Prince of Darkness . 2. That it liveth like the Leech on blood , hating and destroying the most holy persons who differ from them : To these my Soul is unreconcilable . I hate cruelty to Papists or Infidels , much more to godly faithful persons , that do hurt to none . And I think I have convinced Mr. Dodwell himself that I am not inclined for the avoiding of Popery , to run into any contrary Extreme ; nor to imitate them tha● ignorantly call Truth , or harmless things , Antichristian or Popish . The name of Popery doth not affright me from any truth of God : What I have written in many Books , especially in the last part of my Catholick Theology , and what censures I have suffered for it , ( which never moved me to comply with the Censurers ) I think prove it . I again and again profess , That if the Papists , or such as I now deal with , would but prove , that God ever made or allowed such a Church as they plead for in the world , that is an Vniversal Church , constituted or unified by any one Head or Supreme Governing p●r● ( Monarchical or Aristocratical ) under Christ , the Dispute whether it be Pope , or Council , or Cardinals , or Colledge of Bishops in all the world , shall not hinder me from a chearful and joyful declaring my self a Papist without partiality , fear or shame , in the sense that the word Papist hath still signified with such as I converse with . These things I have taken the boldness to ask some of the greatest , that on the fore mentioned terms appropriate the name of the Church of England to their Sect or Party , and I could get no answer from them , viz. Whether they took the Councils of Constance and Basil for Papists ? And whether they now take the Bishops and Church of France for Papists ? And whether they took Gerson , Cusanus , Cassander , Erasmus , for Papists , or not ? 2. If yea , What is the difference between the said Papists Church-Form and Government , and that which these call the Church Catholick , and Dispute for ? 3. If not , Then is not the Controversie de nomine , Whether the French Bishops and Church , and the said Councils being of the same Form and Religion with the Church of England , ( as called by these men ) ought to be called Papists , or not ? And for that I shall strive with none : Let every man call them as he seeth cause ; or if he will , as they will call themselves . Let them be Papists in France , and Protestants in England ; I contend not for names . But I wonder not at these Church-men , if they unchurch the French Protestants , and condemn their Ministry and Sacraments as none ; How else could their Persecution be justified ? And , O that they would tell us , what Churches they be that they live in communion with ? Whether the French , Spanish , Italian , Greeks , Nestorians , Jacobites , Copties , Abassines , be in their Communion , or not ? If yea , Whether the Reformed Churches be not as worthy of their communion ? If not , whether the Church of England be all the Catholick Church in their account ? O that we could long more for God's righteous final Iudgment , ( to which we appeal , though Mr. Dodwell be against it ) and for the world of perfect Light , and Love , and Union ! Dated Septemb. 2. 1681. ( appointed a Publick Fast for the burning of London . ) I have not time to gather the Errata of the Press ; I cast my eye on these , Pag. 9. l. 19. for natures , r. names . p. 10. l. antep . dele and. p. 11. l. antep . r. is in . p. 17. l. 1. for or , r. over . p. 5. l. 29. after excommunicating , r. Christ's servants for not forsaking their faithful Pastors . p. 10. l. ult . for of , r. by . p. 16. l. 32. for our r. one . p. 90. l. 12 r. temerity . p. 139. l. 17. for by , r. to . pag. 151. l. 4. for by , r. my , &c. THE CONTENTS . A Late Letter of Mr. Dodwell's , with the Answer , written since the rest was printed . Chap. 1. Of Mr. Dodwell's displeasure against me , as if I accused him to be a Papist , and wronged the Councils of Bishops . p. 1. Chap. 2. His schismatical Church-destroying Scheme , the sum of his great schismatical book confuted . p. 7 Chap. 3. The consequents of Mr. Dodwell's foresaid Doctrine . p. 21 Chap. 4. My words of Gods Collation of Ministerial Authority vindicated from the forgeries and fallacies of Mr. Dodwell . p. 27 What my assertion is of the cause of Church power . p. 29. The contrary , p. 32. The truth proved , p 33 , &c. His objections answered , p. 36. &c. Bishops are of God , p. 46. &c. His sad qualification of Ministers , p. 48. Preferring God is no wrong to Government , p. 54. What succession we have , p. 54. Of Aidan and Finans Episcopacy , p. 57. His assertion of supreme Church-power , from whom there is no appeal to Scripture , to God , or the life to come , and whose intention is the measure of the power of all ordained by them , examined , p. 57 , &c. Whether the Church on earth be one visible society under one visible humane Government , p. 59. Whether Divine Authority may not be pretended for practising contrary to some superiors , p. 60 Chap. 5. Wherein Mr Dodwell's deceits , and their danger lie . p. 63. Whether there be but one sense of all terms , which causes obliging men to mean , all that have skill in causes are to understand , p. 63. Twelve great doctrinal Articles in which we differ from Mr. Dodwell , p. 65. Some questions put to him , p. 68 His second Letter to me from Ireland , p. 70. My Answer to it , p. 75. proving the impossibtlity of just Discipline in the Diocesan way , which I dissent from . The short Answer to Mr. Dodwell's long Letter ( which Dr ▪ Sherlocke and Mr. Morrice extol ) , which is fully answered in my Treatise of Episcopacy , p. 90. A Letter sent to Mr. Dodwell Mar. 12 1681. A Letter to Mr. Dodwell Nov. 15. 1680. Anoth●r to him of July 9. 1677. opening many of our chief differences . p. 100. Another after a personal conference sent to him , but returned , because he was gone into the Country ; debating with him eleven of our great differences : in which Mr. Dodwell may be known . p. 118. An Account of my dissent from Dr. Sherlocke his Doctrine , Accusations and Argumentation ; specially about the essence of the Universal , a National and Single Church , and the nature of Schism , &c. CHap. 1. The Historical Proem . Chap. 2. My ●etter and Couns●l to Mr. Sherlocke many years ago , advising him to expound or retract his words , which seem to deny the three Articles of our Baptismal covenant , our belief in God the Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost , p. 162 His Answer , p. 173 Chap. 3. Of the ill manner of these mens Confutations . p. 174 Chap. 4. The main part of our difference , viz. what is the essential form of the Catholick , National and single Churches , p. 182 Chap. 5. What is the Catholick Church , as described by Arch-Bishop Bramhall , Bishop Gunning , Dr. Saywell , Mr. Thorndike , Mr. Dodwell , Mr. Sherlocke and the French Papists , p. 193. Some notes on Dr. Saywell's Communion , p. 198. More on Dr. Sherlocke's . p. 203 Chap. 6. What is the Vnion and necessary Communion of the Catholick Church , according to this accusing Defender ? p. 207. His unsatisfactory solutions manifested , and Dr. Isaac Barrow's excellent Treatise of Church-Vnity , published by Dr. Tillotson , defended against his vain exceptions . Chap. 7. Of the rest of his book . p. 228. A late Letter from Mr. Dodwell , calling for more Answer , with the Answer to it , written since the rest was Printed , though it be here placed . Reverend Sir , I Am now in the Country , and as yet in so unsetled a condition , as obliges me to be a Stranger to new Works . However , by the short view I have when I come into Shops , I find you put me off for a Reply to Mr. Clarksons little Pamphlet concerning Diocesan Jurisdiction : I have got it and perused it , and the design of my writing at present is , to acquaint you with the reason why I think my self unconcerned in it , if that be all I must expect from you in Answer to my yet unanswered Letters . You must excuse me , if I cannot think that Book an Answer , which as it was written before them by your own confession , so neither doth it foresee the accounts given in those Letters , nor provide against them : Whether it do so , let the Reader judge . But to return to the account intended , why I cannot think my self concerned in this new Pamphlet of Mr. Clarkson's , be pleased to understand , that the excellent Dean of St. Pauls being engaged against you on the same Argument of my Letters , was pleased to put himself to the trouble of perusing my Papers , as they came from the Press , purposely that he might avoid repeating what had been said by me . This being so , you may easily understand how far I am concerned in what is said to him , when it was indeed wholly distinct from mine . Not that I should have been unwilling to serve that great Person , but that I know he is in much better hands already . Mr. Clarkson in this Pamphlet , as he has only mentioned Dr. Stillingfleets name , so he hath confined himself to his Arguments , and hath taken notice of nothing in my Letters not considered by the Doctor . If he will be pleased to engage further , I confess I like his temper better than any I have seen of your late Brethren , except Dr. Owen . Such an Adversary I should desire , as would confine himself to the Cause , without digressing to personal Slanders . There is one mistake in him , which you may be pleased to acquaint him with , and that is his translating 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thousands more than once , and sometimes where his Argument is grounded on it , that it may appear to be his mistake rather than the Printers . The mistake is small and separable from the main Cause , but withal is very evident . But according to his candour in acknowledging it , so I shall see what candour I may expect from him in the main Cause , if he think fit to engage with me in it . As to your Answers to my Objections against your Ministry in our Oral Debates , had they been unproved Assertions , I should then have thought them sufficiently answered with Denials . But you know the Assertions are proved in the body of my Book ; and till I see my Principles unravelled , and Answers more distinctly applied to the junctures , where the proof may seem to fail , I am not likely to see any reason to change my minde . Till you attempt this , I am content the Reader judg , whether what you have done , or shall hereafter do in the like way , deserve the name of a Confutation . If I must never expect any further satisfaction from you for the Slanders you have raised against me , all the return I intend , is my hearty Prayer to God , to qualifie you for your forgiveness , not only of that sin , but of the many others of your late writings , by your re-union to the Church from which you are fallen , on which account alone I have proved that you can expect forgiveness . I am obliged not only on my own account , but to the Publick , to which you have shewn your self an Enemy on this occasion , to reflect on you ; but I desire to leave no monuments against you to Posterity . God may yet have mercy on you , and let you see the mischief you are doing , before it be too late . That he will do so , is the most unfeigned request of him , who , notwithstanding your many and great provocations , will still endeavour to approve himself Shrewsbury , Sept. 19 , 1681. Yours , as far as is consistent with his Duty to the Publick , Henry Dodwell . When you have occasion to write to me , send your Lettrs to be left with Mr. Took Sir , I Received not yours of Septemb. 19 , 1681. till Octob. 21. through the miscarriage of one that should have delivered it . What you have to say to Mr. Clarkson , write to himself and not to me : As to your call for more Answer to your Books , you shall have more . I had wrote one long ago , and cast it by : Men are weary of our Controversies , and had rather all of us gave over . But if I should shew the errour and impertinency of every such word in your great Book , it might be a years work ; when I look not to live so long ; and it might make so great a Volume in Folio , that few I think would buy or read ! And what great good will it do the world , to tell them how grossly you abuse the Chuch , and how confidently and voluminously you err ? As to your charge of Slandering you , and wronging the Church , and being unqualified for forgiveness , I have the same Accusations from Quakers , Anabaptists , Antinomians and Papists , almost in the same words : Within these two hours an ancient Doctor sent me as hard words [ As being a self condemned person , to be forsaken , as opposing the Commands of God , and the Faith of Iesus , ] for not yielding to his [ asserting of the Seventh-day-Sabbath , and condemning the Lords-days observation . ] I have these thirty six years lived under such Accusations : It is no new thing for Seducers to use affrighting words instead of proof , and to say , [ Except ye be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses , you cannot be saved . It 's the cry of most Sects , [ You cannot be saved but in our way ] Sir , No man living hath more cause to be loath to err , and to be willing to know the Truth . I am as sure , as I can be , if I know any thing of my own minde , that I am not only willing to know the Truth , but to know it at a far dearer rate than it was ever like to cost me in this world . I am sure that I have not been slothful in seeking it : I am sure that I would joyfully recant any Errour that you or any man can convince me of , with hearty thanks for so great a benefit . I have considered your Books ; you are confident of my erring and wronging the Church ; and I am as confident of yours : that you are a Misleader of an extraordinary size , that would set up an Vniversal humane Supreme Government , which Protestants have taken for Popery and Treason against Christ ; and who falsly unchurch the Reformed Churches , and deny them all Covenant-right to Salvation , while you tol● me your self , that It is not for the Christian Interest to hold , th●● the Roman Bishops Ordination ( as you require it ) hath had an intercision . Is it a crime to speak truth of you or a slander to say , That the Doctrine of an Humane , Absolute , Vniversal Soveraignty , is the most Fundamental part of Popery ? And is it no Sin or Slander for you to condemn so many Millions falsly , even the purest and holiest of the Churches on Earth ? if not the whole ( by self-contradiction ? ) is it a damning sin not to feed , cloath , and visit in Prison one of Christ's little ones ? And is it a meritorious virtue in Mr. Dodwell to unchurch , or unchristen , or degrade , if not condemn to Hell all the Reformed Churches , ( nominally but not really excepting England ? ) Yea , and to go about with a persecuting Spirit and Diligence , to provoke Magistrates to lay them in Jayls with Rogues , because they dare not give over Preaching the Gospel , to which they were devoted in their Ordition ? Reproach●ng those Magistrates as Contemners of Religion , who will not punish us as Deceivers , as if it were not you that is the Deceiver ? Should I presume to judge , that so many and such men through Christendom , as you condemn , were all so ignorant and so bad , as not to know the common Verities necessary to the essence of the Ministry , and to Salvation , and that 't is I that can teach it them , by such media as Mr Dodwell useth , ( while he knoweth that Voetius hath answered a far abler Defender of his Cause ) I should sure be reputed a man so extremely proud , as that no complemental humble deportment would excuse . As for the Question , Whether you are a Papist , what obligation lieth on me to decide it ? Why should you expect that I should say you are none ? Do you not better know your self ? And is not your own word fitter to tell your minde ? I do but tell what your Doctrine is . And I will speak so much plainer than I did , as to say , That 1. to hold a humane Universal Church-Supremacy , Aristocratical or Monarchical . 2. And that this Power is so absolute , that there is no Appeal from it to Scripture , or Gods Judgment . 3. And that this Power doth make universal Laws for all the Church by General Councils . 4. And that the Pope hath the Primacy or Presidentship in those Councils ordinarily . 5. And that he is the Principium Vnitatis . 6. And that it belongs to the President antecedently to call Councils , and to him alone ; so that they are but unlawful Routs , or rebellious , if they assemble without his Call. And that they are Schismaticks , who dissent and disobey this Supremacy . 8. And that the Reformed Churches , for want of your Episcopal Ordination uninterrupted from the Apostles times ▪ are no true Churches , have no true Ministry , or Sacraments , or Covenant-right to Salvation ; but by pretending them , do sin against the Holy Ghost . 9 But that the Church of Rome , by vertue of an uninterrupted Episcopal Succession , is a true Church , hath a true Ministry , and Sacraments , and Covenant right to Salvation . 10. And that the French-Church ( which we call Papists ) are safer than the Protestants there . 11. And imply , that the said French Clergy , and the Councils of Constance and Basil were no Papists . 12. And that the said Protestants being Schismaticks , and sinning against the Holy Ghost , the Magistrates that will not be Contemners of Religion , are bound to punish them . ( As if in England and France your bellows were needful to blow the fire . ) These things asserted among you by Bishop Bramhall , Heylin , Mr. Thorndike , and you and such others , the Protestants have been hitherto used to call Popery : But I will not dispute with you a mere question of the fitness of the name . If you had rather , call it Church Tyranny , Cruelty , or Diabolism . And is all this a Virtue in you ? And is it a sin in me to defend Christ's flock , and the true Unity of his Church , and to detect such Deceivers , and bear my testimony for Truth , Love and Concord against such Dividers and Destroyers ? It 's a hard case then , that such as ● are in , that the more unfeignedly we desire to know God's Will , and the more diligently and impartially we study it , and the more it costeth us , the greater sinners we are : And no sins have been so loudly charged on me , as Praying , and Preaching the Gospel , and laborious vindicating God's Truth and Servants . It doth not follow , if you hate them , or would have them ruined , that every man sinneth that doth not as you do ▪ And whereas you would get some countenance to your Writings ▪ by the name of Dr. Stillingfleet , as having perused them , &c. Either he is , or is not of your mind ? If not , this doth but adde to your deceit . If he be , your Cause will do more against the Conscience and Reputation of Dr. Stillingfleet , than far greater Parts and Reputation than his can do for your Cause . And Sir , what should I get , should I give a Voluminous Answer to all your books ? When I have confuted you as far as I have done , I have but lost my labour . The Church-men that I hear from , despise it , and say , What is Mr. Dodwell to us ? He is an unordained man ( he knoweth why ) , and his book was rejected by the Bishop of London . His opinions are odd , and the Church of England is not of his mind : Yea , Mr. Cheny would perswade us , that you are a singular contemned fellow . But it 's a useful way , to set such an one as you to do mens business , and to boast , as Dr Sherlocke and Mr. Morrice do , of your performance , and yet to disown you when their cause requireth it . But it is an abuse of us that dissent from you , to connive only at your published Books , and then to boast of them as unanswerable . And when we have lost our precious time in shewing their deceit and schismatical Love-destroying tendency , then to say to us , You have done nothing : VVhat is this to us ? Mr. Dodwell is an odd disowned man , and none of the English Clergy . If God and Conscience would give me leave , I could presently be a good man , and a pardoned sinner with you : It is but honouring you , and saying as you say ; I could so be extoll'd by almost any Sect , Papist , Quaker , &c. But it must be but by one : for all the rest would nevertheless revile , accuse me and condemn me , as you do the Protestant Churches . And the Quakers , like you , say , we sin against the Holy Ghost . The old Sabbatarian Dr. before-named , in his first Letter accused me as aforesaid ; and when I profest my self willing to learn of him , as his Disciple , I was in his next , The unwearied Labourer in Christs harvest , and his marvellous joy , &c. And in the rest , when I could not receive his reasonings , I became worse and more m●serable than ever . It 's a wonderful meritoriou● excellency with such men , to become their Proselytes and admirers . As true Charity and Piety would fain propagate Tru●h , Goodness and happiness ; so Pride , Self-conceit , and a Sectarian Spirit , are like the inordinate lust of fornicators , impatient longer than they are propagating their spurious kind . And indeed the inordinate height of your self-conceitedness and confidence in gross confounding error , will make chast souls afraid of your procacious sollicitations . Had you sought my corporal destruction , and not the Churches ruin , for which you profess a zeal , I might silently have let you take your course . But the sober world so well knoweth , that Satan and Papists are so much against the plain and serious preaching of the Gospel , and so much for blood or cruelty towards Dissenters , how faithful and truly religious soever , that if you go on to be like them , 1. In la●bouring us to cease preaching . And 2. To call for punishment ( we know what ) to those that will not cease , you will cherish men in the opinion that you are a Papist , more than all your friends and talk can make them believe that you are not . Sir , when sin groweth crying and common , I am one that dare not preach impenitency by hiding it , and saying , it is a doubtful or a little thing , though I expect that guilt should be impatient , and some Doctors should go on to say behind my back , that less than this is unchristian and intemperate passion or abuse . Methinks you who judg millions of true believers , and lovers of God and holiness , to damnation ; and by Printing this , go about to have all men think them such , and consequently to love them no better than the damnable should be loved , should never be so partially tender , as not to endure to be but told what you say and do . And will you be angry with sober Christians for startling at such a Doctrine , that All our other qualifications , though we believe and love God , &c. will not save us , unless we have the Sacrament from a Minister ordained by a Bishop of your described species , and he from such another , &c. to the beginning ? Can Christian ears relish the description of such a Hell as containeth the believing Christian lovers of God and Holiness , who call'd upon his name , and sought first his Kingdom and Righteousness , and forsook all for Christ , but were damned for want of an uninterrupted Diocesan Ordination of the Priest that gave them the Sacrament , and all his predecessors ? Sure Christians hitherto han't believed that Diocesans Sacraments will make a Heaven of wicked ungodly men , nor the want of them make a Hell of Saints . And will you be angry with me , for not believing that God is such a one , as will for ever hate and damn in Hell the souls that loved him above all ? Will he take that love from them when they die ? Or do they continue in Hell to love him , while he hateth and tormenteth them ? Were not that to call him worse than the Devil , whom they do not love ? You only tell us , that they cannot be saved for want of your species of Sacramenters . But if you meant not by this their Damnation , but a Purgatory or Annihilation , it 's meet you should deal plainly , and tell us what it is . They are Articles of our Faith and Religion , That whoever believeth ( sincerely ) in Christ , shall not perish , but have everlasting life : And that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth : And that eye hath not seen , &c. what God hath prepared for them that love him . When Dr. VVilkins once preached in Pauls Church an excellent Sermon for peace and concord , on mutual forbearance , on Rom. 14.17 . The kingdom of God is not meat and drink . but righteousness , and peace , and joy in the Holy Ghost ; For he that in these things serveth Christ , is accepted of God and approved of men , he accosted me at the Pulpit foot with these true words , I am sure this Sermon pleased you . If Dr. Tillotson will publish that Sermon , as he hath done Dr. Isaac Barrow's , those two books will more shame your love-killing , schismatical doctrine , than all that I have said against you . And if the fore-mentioned moderating Doctors , go on to publish me to be a man of unpeaceable provoking language , for saying , that such doctrines and practices are great sins , they will seem to me , to take the preaching of Repentance for reviling , and that he is the sinner that tells men of sin ; and that the Laity are far happier men , who may be called to Repentance for their vices , than the Clergy , or Church-corrupters , who are heinously wronged if their sins be named , and they be but intreated to consider and repent ; yea , if we but tell the reason , why we dare not do as they , in a time when we have cause to study such Texts as Ezek. 9.4 . Perhaps God may permit your principles to get the upper hand . But if he do , I shall love them never the better , but the worse , and shall better love the world which forsake not God , nor is forsaken by him . Mr. DODWEL's LEVIATHAN , or Absolute Destructive Prelacy , the Son of ABADDON APOLLYON , and not of IESVS CHRIST , &c. CHAP. I. Of Mr. Dodwel's displeasure against me , as if I accused him to be a Papist ; and accused unjustly the Councils of Bishops . § . 1. WHEN Mr. Dodwell , in a tedious Volume , did null the Reformed Churches , their Ministry , Sacraments , and Covenant-title to salvation , meerly for want of uninterrupted succession down from the Apostles , of Ordination , by such as he appropriateth the name of Bishops to , I aggravated his fault , as being one that professeth himself a Protestant . He took this to be an accusation of Popery : I Published , to satisfie him , that I meant no such thing ; but de nomine will call him what he calls himself , and de re will be no judg of any thing but his books and words , to which I leave the Reader to know him : This satisfieth him not , but he continueth so much concerned , that I doubt he will make men think there is some tender place that is so impatient of a mis-supposed touch . I have nothing to do with him , or his Religion , as his , further than he assaulteth us by his Writings : And he is the Accuser , and the Accusation is of no less moment than aforesaid , and sinning against the Holy Ghost , and of Schism , and subverting all Government , if we do but practice differently from the Prelates will , and alledg Scripture and Gods Authority for it , and appeal to Christ. I am but on the Defence against all this . § . 2. I profess it is not meer education , prejudices , custom , or worldly interest which keep me from Popery , or his way of absolute obedience to Prelates . I have studied what may be said for it as well as against it ; and I never met but with Two Objections , which seemed to me worthy of much further search : One was , that seeing de facto Popery and high Prelacy have so far and long ruled in the Church , whether it be credible that Christ would so permit it , if he hated it , and give his Church , de facto , no better government ? 2. Whether mens great proneness to discord , make not Popery ( Italian , or French ) a prudent course . And to these , 1. I am sure that Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil , and save his people from their sins , and make them holy , a peculiar people , zealous of good works , and gather a Church of such out of the world , and rule them in a Communion of Saints , till he bring them to perfection . Therefore I have great reason to suspect those men , and that order and course of government , which cherisheth ignorance and sin in Ministers and People , and hunteth , and silenceth faithful Ministers , and suppresseth , persecuteth , tormenteth , burneth the most conscionable Christians , that for fear of offending God , disobey them , that turn serious Religion and spiriritual Worship of God , into bodily exercises , and meer Conformity to their wills , and outward taking Sacraments , and using commanded Ceremonies and words ; under the shadow whereof , for 1000. years , piety hath withered , and impiety prospered . Christ promised to be with his servants to the end of the world , Mat 28.30 . And I cannot but think that he is most with those that are most acquainted with his Gospel , and most love him and obey him , and are most holy and heavenly , and walk not after the flesh , but the spirit , rather than with the ignorant , fleshly , worldly malignant Persecutors , that set them against serious godliness and godly men . § . 3. And I take not any notices of the time present from any thing but certain experience ; nor of the Ages past , from enemies , or suspected , but of the eldest times from all our common Church-history , and of the last 1000 , or 1200 ▪ years , as to the worst part of their actions , from their own greatest friends and flatterers , such as Baronius , Binnius , Platina , Petavius , and others . § 4. And the matter of fact , I confess , hath had much power on my judgment : Had the Popes , and Lording sort of Diocesans been promoters of love and holiness in the Church , and not the woful scandal of it , and the enemies of good men , and serious piety , I should have been stronglier tempted to own their form of government to be of God ; though I am assured that Nature maketh one man , or one Council uncapable of proper government over all the earth ; I should never have opposed that which doth good . But destruction , silencing , persecuting , cruelties , rebellions , worldliness , ignorance , malignity , and cherishing sin , and suppressing piety , and the very word of God , I am sure are all the work of the Devil , what name or titles soever are pretended for them . § . 5. And the fact being to me past dispute , I quietly submit to the dreadful providence of God that permitteth it , considering , 1. The Church on Earth is no better than the Angels ; of Heaven were ; and if so many of the Angels kept not their first estate , but fell by Pride , what wonder if many Bishops do so ? 2. If Adam and Eve both fell from Innocency , and that so soon , it is not incredible that the Serpent should beguile some Bishops to depart from the simplicity that is in Christ. 3. And if the first born man , Cain , murdered his righteous brother by malignant envy for his true Religion , it 's no wonder if some Clergy-men are such . 4. And if the whole world so soon was drowned in wickedness , that only Noah and his house were meet to be saved from the flood , what wonder if the Church had too great a deluge of iniquity ? 5. And to be short , if Noah himself fall after such deliverance , and a Cham be cursed that had been saved , and their posterity proved so bad , that all the Canaanites , &c. must be destroyed ; if Sodom's flames too , better warned Lot , or his Wife and Children ; if Abraham have an Ismael , and Isaac an Esau , and Iacob envious Sons , and two Murderers , and two Adulterers ; If Israel sin , and die in the Wilderness ; if Aaron after that he had seen , make them an Idol ; if Nadab and Abihu die , as they did ; if Eli's and Samuel's Sons proved all so bad ; and in the days of the Judges there were so many revolts and ruins ; if the first King , Saul , so soon revolted ; if David so fell , and Absolom so sinned , and Solomon himself : If Ten Tribes so quickly broke off from David's house , and left him but Two ; if those Two proved as bad as the Prophets tell us , and went into Captivity : And if the Nation rebelled against Christ , and be cursed and scattered over the Earth , what wonder if the Pope and proudest Prelate did corrupt the Church of God ? If Christs chosen Twelve had a Iudas among them ; if the rest strove who should be greatest ; if Peter denied him , and they all forsook him and fled ; if Heresies swarmed in the Apostles days , and Iewish Teachers would have subjected the Gentiles to Moses's Law ; if all forsook Paul in his Tryal , and many accused him before , and such as Diotrephes cast out the Brethren , and prated maliciously against Iohn ; if Christ tell us of a little flock , and not many Noble and great are called ; if it be as hard for the Rich to be saved as Christ saith ; if for Three hundred years the Church was a persecuted people ; and if the Patriarchs and Bishops themselves , for many hundred years after accused one another in Councils , and accused such Councils themselves of Heresies , and other crimes , as much as is yet visible they did , why should I be scandalized at the badness of Bishops and Councils , and the woful corruptions of the Church ? Especially considering , 1. That it was chiefly but the worldly proud domineering sort that thus miscarried , as the very Angels did . 2. That God kept up still a great number of humble and holy Bishops and Presbyters , that joined not in usurpations and pride with the rest . 3. And that God blest their labours to the saving of so many Millions of souls , and propagating true serious Religion to this day . Yea , some of the great Patriarchs themselves have been holy humble men . 4. And when God preserved , by an humble Ministry , so many Christians , as the Albigenses , Waldenses , and many among the Papists themselves , from the liking and guilt of the Roman corruptions . 5. And when God hath raised so learned , humble , and holy a Ministry to reform the Churches , and blest their labours in Europe , and specially in England , as he hath done ; even those that Mr. Dodwell degradeth ; yea , many pious Diocesans here and elsewhere , who yet cannot prove their title by his pretended way of successive Canonical Ordinations ; nor durst have sworn that they had such a call . § . 6. I am sure that the work of Christ is the restoring of Gods Image , holy life , and light , and love ; and that the destroying of these , by hiding the Scriptures , unintelligible worships , Imagery , dead hypocrisie , silencing , and persecuting , and killing Gods servants , making dividing engines to tear , and Canons to batter the peace of the Church , and this by an ignorant , ungodly , worldly Ministry , seeking not the things of God , but of men ; all this is the Devils work ; and to do the Devils work against Christ , is not a sign of Christs servants ; he bids us judg of our selves and others by the fruits ; His servants we are whom we obey : If a Peter once give Christ such worldly fleshly counsel , he shall hear worse than I said of Church-Tyrants , get thee behind me Satan , thou art an offence unto me ; for thou savourest not the things that be of God , but those that be of men , Mat. 16.22 hating the good , silencing thousands of faithful Ministers , excommunicating , and sinning against God , in obedience to Prelates , and for using the needful means of their own salvation , and serving God but as Peter and Paul did ; this is the Devils work , if he have any in the world . And Mr. Dodwell must trust more to swords than words to keep it up ; for there is a spirit in true Christians that will never suffer them to believe that it is pleasing to God , what name soever is pretended for it . § . 7. I will reverence the Iews visible Church , to whom were committed the Oracles of God , but will not say , that they sinned not in persecuting Christ and his Apostles ; nor say , that they are not now under their own curse , and cut off from the Church , who once cast out Christians from their Synagogues . I will give due honour to Primogeniture , and yet not equal Cain and Abel , Ismael and Isaac , Esau and Iacob , &c. but expect , that as he that was born after the flesh did persecute him that was born after the spirit ; even so it will be now : And the world was the world still , when it was taken into the Church . The Heathen Romans were less Persecutors than the Iews , and so are the Turks than the Papists . § 8. I shall , in due place , take notice of Mr. D's confining the Essence of the Ministry to transacting between God and man , in covenanting , requiring essentially no more skill than any man is capable of , who is but capable of understanding the common dealings of the world , p. 73 , 74. And that Immoralities of such mens Lives excuse us not from Schism , for turning from such to better Teachers , p. 72. contrary to the Epistle of the Carthage Council , in the case of Martial and Basilides , and even of Popes and Councils , that forbid hearing Mass from a Fornicator . And his denying the ●cripture to be intended or designed to be a Charter to appeal to for all future generations , and for the extent of Offices , and preventing litigious dispute about government and subjection , p. 80 , 81. But that recourse ought now to be had to the intention of the Ordainers for these . And what he saith , p. 81. against appealing to Writings ( as he calls them ) , against the sense of all the visible authority of this life , as unreconcilable to the practice of any visible government on earth , p. 81. And that subjects cannot preserve their subordination to their superiors , if they practice differently , and defend their practices , and pretend Divine Authority for them , where he speaketh indefinitely , and excepteth no practices . And if we may not appeal from man to God and Scripture , we may appeal from Scripture to man. And if mans Law be above Gods , it is not from him ; for the inferior maketh not his superior . And the root of all this i● , p 82 ▪ That God hath made his Church ( and not only particular Churches that are parts of his Church ) a visible Society , and constituted a visible Government in it . Did I know what Mr. D. taketh this one visible Government to be , whether General Council , or Pope , or all the Bishops of the world by a major vote , or all the people of the Christian world , or what , I should know what to say to him . But for this I must not hope . § . 9. But I shall after speak to his securing subterfuge , p. 90. That there is but one sense of all terms , which causes oblige men to mean ; and that every one ought to know who pretends to skill in causes . Which I am so defective in , that I know not at all what his cause is till he tell me : Nor know I among many senses of most of his chief terms , which it is that he meaneth . I know not what he meaneth by a Papist ; and whether he take those for Papists that are , as the Councils of Constance , and Basil , and the French , for the supremacy of a Council , the Pope being President , or Principium Vnitatis , and Patriarch of us in the West . I know not who he meaneth by the Supreme Church-power in the visible Universal Church . I know not by what he essentiateth the very Episcopacy which he so much pleads for ; no , nor their Ordination . I know not what he taketh to be the Supreme Church-power over the Church of England . And how can I know by the bare general name , when Dr. Stillingfleet denieth any such thing ? CHAP. II. His Schiswatical Church destroying Scheme Confuted . § . 1. BEcause he dealeth so falsly with my Doctrine , by pretence of putting it into his words and order , I will deal better with him , and deal with his Scheme word by word as he hath laid it down . As for his exceptions , th●t I refel not his charge of the sin against the Holy Ghost , &c. I am not yet so idle , ( having formerly written a Treatise of that sin . ) His wilful refusal to answer Voetius de desperata Causa Papalus , when he knoweth that this Plea is the Papists chief strength , and Iansenius is so fully answered , is but a dishonourable tergiversation . And it 's like he knoweth how Melancthon in his Epistles copiously shameth Mr. Dodwell's cause as trusted to by the Papists ; when yet the Protestants here plead Melancthon's judgment for their Reformation . And though Mr. D. told me , that it is not for the Christian Interest to hold that the Roman successive Ordination hath been interrupted ; I think they that believe their own most flattering Historians , must believe that the intercision there hath been more notorious , than in those Reformed Churches which Mr. Dodwell nulleth , or than those German and Danish Bishops whom Bugenhagius a Presbyter ordained . But I will briefly examine the words of his destructive deceiving Frame . 1. That all are obliged to submit to all unsinful conditions of the Episcopal Communion where they live , if imposed by the Ecclesiasiastical Governours thereof . And , 2. That the nature of this obligation is such , as will make them who rather than they will submit to such conditions , either separate themselves , or suffer themselves to be excluded from communion by such Governours for such a refusal of submission , guilty of the sin of SCHISM . Here are two parts . a 1. That all are obliged to submit to all unsinful conditions of the Episcopal communion where they live , if imposed by the Ecclesiastical Government thereof . This proved by these two degrees . 1. That the supposition of their being less secure of salvation out of this Episcopal communion than in it , is sufficient to prove them obliged to submit to all terms not directly sinful , however unexpedient , rather than separate themselves , or suffer themselves to be excluded from this communion , chap. 1. § . 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. 2. That there is indeed less security of salvation to be had even on performance of the Moral conditions of salvation , out of this Episcopal communion , than in it . This proved from two things . 1. That they cannot be so well assured of their salvation in the use of extraordinary as of ordinary means ; nay that they being left to extraordinaries , is a condition either very hazardous , or at least very uncomfortable at present , whatever it may prove hereafter , Ch. II. 2. That these ordinary means of salvation are , in respect of every particular person , confined to the Episcopal communion of the place he lives in , as long as he lives in it . This proved from Two things . 1. That these ordinary means of salvation are confined to the external Communion of the visible Church . This proved from Four things . 1. We cannot be assured that God will do for us what is necessary for our salvation on his part , otherwise than by his express promises that he will do it , Chap. III. § . 1 , 2. 2. The ordinary means how we may assure our selves of our interest in his promises , is by our interest in his Covenant , by which they are conveyed to us , Chap. III. from § . 5. to the end . 3. The ordinary means by which we may assure our selves of our interest in this Covenant with him , is by our partaking in these external solemnities , by which this Covenant is transacted and maintained , Chap. IV , V , VI , VII . 4. The participation in these external solemnities , with any legal validity , is only to be had in the external Communion of the visible Church , Chap. VIII . B. ( II. ) That this visible Church , to whose external Communion these ordinary means of salvation are confined , is no other than the Episcopal Communion of the place where any one lives , whilest he lives there . This proved in Two parts . a ( 1. ) That the visible Church , to whose external Communion these ordinary means of salvation are consined , is the Episcopal Communion . This proved by these degrees . ( A. ) 1. That salvation is not ordinarily to be expected without an external participation of the Sacraments . 1. Negatively , Not by those other popular means , which ordinary persons are apt to trust in , to the neglect of the Sacraments ; that is , 1. Not by hearing the Word Preached , Chap. IX . 2. Not by private Prayer , nor indeed by any out of the Communion of the Church , Chap. X , XI , XII , XIII . XIV . 2. Positively , That salvation is ordinarily to be expected only by this external participation of the Sacraments . 1. Proved concerning Baptism , Chap. XV. 2. Concerning the Lords Supper , Chap. XVI , XVII . II. That the validity of the Sacraments depends on the Authority of the persons by whom they are administred , Chap. XVIII . III. No other Ministers have the Authority of Administring the Sacraments , but only they who receive their Orders in Episcopal Communion . This proved by Four degrees . 1. That the Authority of Administring the Sacraments must be derived from God , Chap. XIX . 2. That though it be derived from God , yet it is not so derived without the mediation of those men to whom it was at first committed , Chap. XX. 3. That it cannot be so derived from those men to whom it was first committed , without a continued succession of persons , orderly receiving Authority from those who had Authority to give it them from those first times of the Apostles to ours at present , Chap. XXI . 4. That this Authority is not now to be expected any where but in the Episcopal Communion , Chap. XXII , XXIII , XXIV , XXV . b. ( 2. ) That the Episcopal Communion , to which every particular person is obliged to joyn himself , as he would enjoy the ordinary means of his own particular salvation , is the Episcopal Communion of the place wherein he lives , whilest he lives in it , Chap. XXVI . b. II. That the nature of this obligation to unsinful conditions of their Episcopal Communion , is such as will make them guilty of the sin of SCHISM , who rather than they will submit to such Conditions , either separate themselves , or suffer themselves to be excluded from Communion by their respective Diocesan Ordinaries , Chap. XXVII . Here is Episcopal Communion talkt of , without telling what is the Episcopacy , or what the Communion which he means , and how both are known . Confusion 1. There are usurping Bishops not truly called or chosen . 2. There are Heretical Bishops . 3. There may be divers Bishops in one City or County ; which of these mean you ? 4. He may be one fit for others , and not for me , nor am I to take him for my Pastor . As the Greek Bishop in London , and many Latine Bishops , that spake not English heretofore ; or his faultiness may make it my duty to chuse a better . 5. What if the King and Law command the contrary ? 6. All this is nothing for submitting to sinful conditions . 2. As it is a duty to refuse sinful conditions , so of many particular Churches to chuse the fittest for our communion . The French , and Dutch , and Greeks in London , are not Schismaticks for not being subject to this Bishop , or locally communicating with him . 2. You tell us not how a man shall know he is of the Bishops communion among a thousand Parish-Churches that differ in many things , and own the Bishop in some things , and not in others . 3. Few of the Diocess ever locally communicate with our Bishops ; and mentally the Nonconformists communicate in Essentials at least . 4. Most Christians on earth are guilty of Schism , and yet are not prevalently Schismaticks , but still members of the Catholick Church . 5. The Bishops , e. g. in France , are more guilty of the Schism than the Protestants . See Dr. Stillingfleet's Defence of Laud. 1. This is false in the fore-excepted cases : 1. If he be a Bishop to others , and not to me ( unless communion include not subjection ; for so we communicate with many other Bishops ) . 2. If the condition imposed be a thing which a Superior Power forbiddeth , ( King , or in some cases Parents . ) The matter and consequences are so weighty , as tell us it is not well done to abuse dull Readers thus with the deceitful unexplained nature of Episcopacy , and Communion . The love of truth and souls forbid such deceit . 1. If some receive only Parish-bishops ( of the old sort ) and others also their Archbishops , and others such Diocesans as put down all Parish-bishops , which of these have Episcopal communion ? 2. When of old , many Ages , Voting , and Fighting , could not tell men which was the true Bishop among many competitors , and when at Rome there were oft two or three at once ; and when the worst oft carried the possession ; and Councils themselves were for divers ; whih was the Episcopal communion ? 3. Is communion and subjection all one with him , or divers ? If divers , I have communion with many Bishops that I am not subject to ▪ If the same , how many must each man be subject to ? and in what order and cases ? 4. Communion is 1. mental or local ; and the first , 1. In essentials . 2. Integrals . 3. Accidents of Christianity . I have communion with all Christians in Essentials , with the best in most integrals ; with none in all , nor in all accidents . 4. I am more secure in the mental communion of many Bishops , than of some one , and of All in Essentials , and certain things , than of some one in suspected things , especially in universal communion with Christ and his whole Church . 2. He that hath no communion with any true Bishops of Gods institution , in his judgment , will , and profession , hath no communion with Christs Church : But if they are , 1. of a false species , 2. incapable , 3. unordained , 4. obtruders not consented to by the Clergy and the Flock , it 's safest to disown them . 5. And ●f they turn wolves , thorns , and thistles , or hereticks . 2. It 's dangerous to refuse communion with the true Episcopi Gregis , but not with such as depose them . 3. And its doubtful as to the Episcopi Episcoporum . 1. It 's but deceit to distinguish only ordinary and extraordinary , in speaking of the necessity of means . The Gospel written or preached , is an ordinary means , which to want is hazardous indeed ; so is meditation , prayer , and sacraments , where they may well be had , and Pastors to administer them . But there are many lesser means that may be wanting or ignorantly refused , where salvation is safe . The Church of England thinks preaching to be such , which forbiddeth men to go for Preaching , and from a bare Reader in his own Parish . And the Indians converted by Frumentius and Edesius , might have certain salvation before they had any Pastor . And so may they that cannot know among contenders which is the true Pastor either as to the species or individual . But 2. Comunion in every lawful thing is no ordinary requisite means of salvation . Mark Reader that he said , that suffer themselves to be excluded from Communion by such Governours , for refusing submission to unsinful things . And Dr. Saywell , Bishop Gunnings Chaplain , and this man , make such refusal and schism damnable . Now mark here , how they make all indifferent imposed things consequently necessary to salvation , and make all such indifferences to be Articles of faith , or necessary to salvation to be believed . E.g. if Organs , the Cross in Baptism , Surplices , Church-images , Exorcisms , and five hundred such , be indifferent , and commanded by the Bishop , he that is excommunicated for not conforming to them , or withdraweth for it , is a damnable Schismatick : Ergo , it is necessary to salvation to conform to every one of them in that case : Ergo , it 's necessary to salvation to hold them to be lawful ( or else to use them while I verily take them to be sins ) . To what a mass now have these men brought the A●ticles or necessaries to salvation ! Doth any living man know all lawful things to be such ? 1. Then in Abassia , where there is but one Abuna Bishop , local Communion with him is impossible to most . 2. And how is the Patriarch of Alexandria , who ordaineth him of that Place that is another Kingdom . 2. Then in one Place-Communion with Papists , in another with Greeks , Moscovites , Abisines , Armenians , &c. is necessary in unsinful things . 3. Who will judg , but the Excommunicator , what is unsinful as to his act ? 4. What a case were men in at Rome , under Formosus Stephen , Sergius , Eugenius 4. Iohn 12. and 22. &c. and at Alexandria under Peter , Meletius , Paulinus , Flavianus , and so oft in other Schisms , and Nullities ? 5. The Novatians , and Ioannites had the ordinary means of salvation in Constantinople , under separate Pastors . But it 's true , that the ordinary means are confined to the visible Church , and its external Communion where it may be had . Of which more anon . 1. Some think that if God had only commanded men to love him , call upon him , hate sin , seek life eternal , without an express promise , one might be sure it should not be done in vain . 2 But God hath expresly promised salvation to all that truly love , trust , and obey him , and seek first Gods Kingdom , and are pure in heart , holy , and love all men , though they were excommunicate for not crossing , subscribing , or thinking Diocesans unlawful . Chap. 3. The Promises of God , and his Covenant on his part , are all one . Those that God promiseth to save , shall certainly be sav●d : who those are , the Gospel fully t●lls us , yea , and told men before the particular Churches were fixed under their proper Pastors , called Elders and Bishops in the Scripture . 3 Transaction is an ambiguous word . 1. It was transacted by making the promise by Christ on Earth . 2. It is transacted by giving the consenting penitent Believer a Right , before God , to Christ and salvation , when he first truly so consenteth . 3. It is transacted by a solemn M●nisterial Investiture , sealing and delivering that Right for the fuller comfort of the consenter , and in soro Ecclesiae , to give the Right of external Communion , as a Tessara , when the person is baptiz●d . 4. It is transacted by renewed confirmation , and for further grace , daily in the Eucharist . I love not to offend you ; but I must be true to truth and souls , and therefore tell men , that these Generals and Confusions are but Cheats . 3. Would you have men believe that external solemnities are necessary to the Right of Heart ▪ Covenanters before God , as to salvetion ? Or that all external solemnities are of the same necessity ? The Church of England takes Confirmation to de an external solemnity , for assuring men of Gods favour , by the sign of Imposition of a Diocesans hands ; and yet bind you to profess that it is not necessary to salvation , but the baptized Infants are certainly and undoubtedly saved without it . Litanies , Processions , and many external solemnities are not essential to external Communion with the visible Church . Chap. 8 O tremendous ! Is it no other ? Is not the universal visible Church , consisting of all professed Christians , Headed only by Christ , the only universal Church visible in the world ? Is there no Communion with this as such ? Had the baptized Eunuch ( by Philip the Evangelist ) no Communion with the visible Church , nor promise of salvation ; nor the Iberians , Indians , and many others that were baptized before they knew , or had a Bishop ? Do not baptizing Presbyters ( and Lay-men say , Turtullian and the Papists ) assure men of salvation , though they should not hear of a Bishop ? Why was not Diocesan Episcopacy in the Creed , if the belief and obedience be necessary to salvation ? a ( 1. ) 1. Apostles and Evangelists took men into the visible Communion of the universal Church , before they had particular Church-Bishops . 2. Fixed Church-Communion was exercised universally under Congregational , or Parochial Bishops or Pastors , without such as our Diocesans . It must be Pastoral , or true Episcopal regular Communion . 3. Many Individual Bishops , separating from one another , have been , and may be in one City . 4. If e. g. the Bishop of Lincoln , have many Counties , and one differing from him , were chosen by the Clergy at Leicester , Hartford , &c. as he was by the King , which of them is the Bishop on the place ? If Gloucester Clergy and People had chose another when Goodman , a Papist , was Bishop , which was the Bishop ? 1. 1. Salvation is pronounced by Conformists to be certain upon Baptism , without any other Sacrament . 2. Popes and Papists are as much as any for tying salvation to Sacraments ; and yet a Pope Victor and his Council , at Benevent , 1078. decree , that rather than Communicate with a Simonist , they should persist without visible Communion , and in mind joined to Christ , have his Communion . 3. What shall they do ordinarily in Italy , Spain , France , &c. that have none but Papist Bishops . 1. Wilful neglect of any known means , sheweth wilful disobedience against God. But many means may be ignorantly neglected without destroying assurance of salvation . Turtullian thought children should stay from Baptism , unless in danger of death : and Nazianzen was for some years delay . This ignorance damned not the practisers . Apocryphal books , divers Sacraments , Ceremonies , Church-Offices , Doctrines , have been controverted means among true Christians . 2. Faith comes by hearing , Rom. 10. Christ blesseth them that hear and do it : Thousands are mentioned as believing by hearing , and salvation is promised to Faith. 2. 1. Whoever shall call on the name of the Lord , shall be saved : Ask and ye shall have . True faith and conversion , wrought by hearing Gods word , and working by true love and prayer , hath many a promise of pardon and salvation . 2. Is a baptized praying believer out of the Communion of Christs Church , though he doubt of Diocesans , or Patriarchs ? He is not . 2. 1. Ordinarily faith comes by hearing , and hearing by preaching ; and he that truly believeth shall be saved , Iohn 13.16 . 2. I think many Score , or Hundreds of Protestant Divines have proved that Baptism giveth not the first Right to life , but only solemnly confirmeth , sealeth , and by Ministerial investiture publickly delivereth that which true Faith received before . See Gataker's two Tracts on Dr. Ward 's and Dr. Davenant's Theses . 3. What 's Baptism to Episcopacy ; till King Iames alter'd it , Women might Baptize in England , and Priests still may . And are men Baptized into the Name , or Belief of Diocesans ( as Bellarmine saith , Baptism binds them to the Pope ) . Prove this if you can . 2. If Baptism undoubtedly save , at what Age doth the effect cease ? 2. The Lords Supper is necessary for corroboration , and for expressing true obedience , and living by Faith on Christ , where it can lawfully be had , and the need and use of it is understood . ( B. ) This is false : If they be given by a Lay-man , falsly pretending Orders , or by one who hath no Authority through uncapacity , or usurpation ; yet the receiver loseth not his Right ; he taketh it as from God : and if his ignorance be not culpable , there is not so much as disobedience in it . 2. If I prove that Papists have no such Authority as you plead for , are all their Baptisms and Ordinations null ? III. Episcopal Communion is the Cothurnus , the Hose drawn over your ulcer and snare . 1. We have mental Communion , in Essentials , with all true Bishops in the world . 2. We have Subject Communion with true Parish-Bishops . 3. And with their Ruling Bishops , at least as Magistrates . 4. Novatians , Luciferians , Donatists , and others , in time of Schisms , had all Orders in Episcopal Communion , and so have Papists , Greeks , Moscovites , Armenians . 5. Parish-Bishops have more proof of Authority from Christ than the Diocesans , or many hundred Congregations that have no other Bishops . 6. Authority may be given by God , without any Ordination , where it cannot be had , or not without sinning . 1. No doubt but all true Authority must be derived from God. 2. Those to whom it was first given , were the Twelve Apostles . They are considered , 1. As the Inspired Prophetical Declarers and Recorders of the Laws , and Doctrine , and Promises of Christ. 2. As chief Pastors of the Church , to gather and rule it . All Gods gifts and graces that come to us by the mediation of the Gospel , come by the Apostles mediation in the first sense , as declaring Christs Will , how Ministers shall be made in all Ages . And as chief Pastors , gathering , and setling the first Churches , which , by Christs Charter , shall call their Pastors , and so others , to the end of the world ; they may be said to be Mediators herein . 3. But they mediate not as the Donors of the Pastoral power , as being Pastors themselves , but only as Ministerial investers . The Sacraments come not to us without the mediation of the Apostles , but they made them not , nor make them effectual , nor make new Apostles to deliver them . 3. This is deceitful confusion . 1. Authority to Administer Sacraments , and Authority to call others to administer them , are different things . 2. And so is succession of Apostolical power , and succession of common Ministry . 3. And so is giving power , as the Donor , and giving it as an investing servant . 4. And proper giving it , and improper , which is but qualifying the persons to receive it . 1. Apostolical Prophetical conveyance harh no such succession . 2. The Flock that have no Authority to Administer Sacraments , partake of the Authority to call others to do it . 3. Inferiors may have Authority to call Superiors ( else the highest could not be made ) 4. None of these people give the power , but their Election is part of the receivers qualifications , to whom God giveth it by his Law or Charter ; And then as ser●ants , they solemnize the Investiture . 5. The power of this Law or Charter is never interrupted : But if all Pastors were dead an Hundred years , it would renew Pastoral power in the Church , without uninterrupted Donors or Investers . 4. This conveying power is where-ever Gods Law , and capable receivers are : A capable receiver is , 1. One personally qualified with sufficiency and willingness . 2. And that hath the Churches and Ordainers necessary consent , when ordinary for order sake , the Ordainers then must invest him by declaring him authorized by God , &c. The regular Ordination ( like publick Matrimony after contract ) is to be by authorized Ordainers ; and most Bishops , Diocesan , Papists , Greeks , Moscovites , Armenian , &c. are of more doubtful Authority than Congregational , or Parish Bishops , though the former usurp the name , as appropriated to them . b. 2. 1. Then men in Rome , Italy , Spain , France , &c. must be of the Papists Prelates Churches and Communion . 2. Paulinus and Flavian , Donatists , Novatians , Arrians , &c. may have Bishops in the same place . And the Orthodox , two , or more at once : Grotius thought as many as there were Synagogues in a City . 3. Then if I prove the chief Pastor of a Parish , or City-Church , to be a true Bishop by vertue of Gods Law ; and if he have better Qualification , and Election , and Ordination , to be of surer Authority than the Diocesan , it 's his Communion that we must prefer . 4. But indeed Baptism and Salvation are ordinarily given before Episcopal Communion of any sort . 5. They that thought the Pope Antichrist ( as most Protestant Bishops long did ) , thought it a duty to reject the Communion of the Bishops of the places where they lived : And Denmark , and other Countries set up others against them that were ordained by Bugenhagius , and other Prsbyters . 6. Parochial and Diocesan bounds are humane mutable institutions . 7. If the Bishop of the place be a Schismatick , the Communion of a better near is better . b. II. 1. All causleless separation from any Christians , or causleless disobedience to any Pastor , or neglect of any Christian duty , needful to the Churches peace and concord , and every opinion and practice that is against them doth make a man guilty of sinful Division , or Schism in some degree . And while every Christian hath many errors and sins , which all tend to some sinful breach ( as the least sore is solutio continui ) , I cannot see but every man living hath some guilt of Schism ; nor that there is any Church on earth that hath not some such guilt : But every degree of guilt denominateth not the man , or Church a Schismatick , in a predominant or mortal sense . And in Charity , I hope that even some of those heinous Schismaticks may be saved , that divide the Churches by their usurpation , obtrusion , sinful impositions , and worldly domination ; yea , some that in blind zeal put down Parish-Bishops , and smite and silence the Pastors , and scatter the Flocks . And if I must have Communion with none that 's guilty of Schism , with what Church or Bishop should I joyn ? And if their Sacraments be invalid , what a case is Italy , Spain , France , yea and England in ? Must all be baptized again that they baptized ? 2. But it 's no schism but a duty for the people as far to forsake a sinful Bishop ( much more an usurper ) as Cyprian and that Council advised them to do in the case of Martial and Basilides . 3. And after all this deceitful confusion , note Reader , that he denieth not our disobedience to be lawful in case of sinful conditions imposed . And if we fully prove not this to be our case , let our accusers silence us , and let our guilt be our shame . 4. And if people that had Parish-Bishops on the place where they lived , lawfully called , shall forsake them to obey a Diocesan that is not on the place , but perhaps Forty , or Fifty , or Sixty Miles off , and never saw them , and was obtruded contrary to the ancient Canons , which nullifie such , and sets himself to silence faithful Pastors , and persecute them , and other godly Christians , for not sinning heinously upon deliberate choice and covenant , doth not even this man conclude such to be Schismaticks that are out of the ordinary way and hope of salvation . CHAP. III. The consequence of Mr. Dodwell's foresaid doctrine . 1. THOSE that live under the Popish Bishops in Italy , Spain , France , &c. must live in their communion , and under their command in all unsinful things . 2. The Protestant Churches that have not Episcopal Ordination , are no true Churches , and have no true Ministers or Sacraments , nor any Covenant-right to salvation . 3. The Protestant Churches are in the same unchurched damnable case that have Bishops , if they have not an uninterrupted succession of such from the Apostles canonically ordained . 4. Therefore the Churches of Denmark , Germany , &c. that have Superintendents ordained at the Reformation by Bugenhagius , Pomeranus a Presbyter , and all the rest whose succession was interrupted , are in the same case . 5. It is Schism , and rejecting Sacraments , and Covenant-right to salvation , in all the people that continue in such Protestant Churches , and communicate with them . 6. It is better for the Protestants in France to joyn with the Papists , than to live as they do without Sacraments or Church-communion . 7. Yet ( by self contradiction ) it will follow , that certainly the Church of Rome , and all that derive their ordination from that Church , have no true Bishops , Ministers , Sacraments , Churches , nor Covenant-right to salvation ; for it 's certain their true succession hath been oft interrupted , 1. By such utterly uncapable persons as all History describeth , and even Baronius calleth Apostaticos non Apostolicos ; and such as divers General Councils judged Hereticks , Infidels , Simoniaks , &c. e g. Eugenius 4. who yet kept in . 2. By such whose false ordination the Canons expresly null . 3. By many Schisms , two or three Popes at once , of whom none can tell who had the right , or whether any . 4 By the Popes taking on him to be Christs Universal Vicar , an Office in specie usurpt , which he maketh his Episcopacy , and as such giveth his orders . And all his Presbyters have turned the true Ministry into the false one of Mass-Priests ; and being no true Ministers , can give no true Sacraments by his rule . 8. Yea it is certain , that few , if any Churches on earth , can prove such an uninterrupted succession as he and the Papists describe , and most it s known have no such thing . 9. Therefore if any have such a succession , they cannot know it , it being a thing that cannot be proved ; and so cannot be sure that they are true Churches , &c. 10. For the certainty of any true Ministry , Church , Sacraments and Salvation , dependeth on such knowledg of History as is not in the world : viz. To know that this Bishop and his Ordainer , and his Ordainer , and his Ordainer , and so up to the Apostles , were every one true Bishops , and truly Ordained ; which no mortal man can know . 11. Men that by a Prince , against even the Nullifying Canons , can but get possession of Patriarchal and Diocesan Churches , without the Clergy or peoples choice , have thereby the power of damning men that fear God , at their pleasure . For , 1. they must pass for the Bishops of the place . 2. They may command any unsinful thing , and excommunicate him that doth not obey . 3. He is a Schismatick that suffers himself so to be Excommunicate , and so is in a damnable state . 4. He cannot hinder it , not knowing the thing to be unsinful . 12. For by this whoever will escape damnable schism , must be one that knoweth the unsinfulness ( as he speaks ) of all things in the world that are such , which a Prelate may command ; or else he must do any thing which he judgeth sin , if a Prelate command it . But that is wicked Idolizing man. 13. And therefore by this rule , no man living can be saved that a Prelate hath a mind to damn ; or from his damning impositions . For no man living knoweth the lawfulness of all lawful things , and therefore may take a commanded thing for sin that is not : and then if he wilfully do that which he judgeth sin , he rebelleth against God ; if he do it not , the Prelate may excommunicate him , and unresistibly make him a damnable schismatick . 14. And hereby there are as many hundred new Articles of Faith made , as there are things lawful which a Prelate will command . For though all is not to be done that is to be believed , yet all must be believed to be lawful and duty which must be done as such : e. g. We cannot love God , worship him , hear and read his Word , &c. as by Divine obedience , unless we believe it to be our duty by a Divine command . Therefore when as Mr. Dodwell , Dr. Saywell , and such others tell us what damning schism it is to disobey such commands of the Bishops , or to suffer our selves to be Excommunicate , it plainly includeth that it is as damning a sin to take any lawful thing to be a sin , and not to believe it to be lawful whatever the Bishop shall command . And so to how many hundred indifferent things may the Articles of our Faith be extended , while it is made ordinarily necessary to Salvation to do them , and therefore to believe them to be lawful ? 15 ▪ By this he confoundeth Communion and Obedience : I may have communion with many Bishops whom I am not bound to obey : But I cannot hinder them from Excommunicating me without obeying them . 16. Yea , he maketh Communion and Salvation to lye not only on such obedience , but on such perfection of obedience as reacheth to every lawful indifferent thing . Whereas God himself under the Gospel accepteth of sincerity , instead of perfection which the Law required of perfect man. 17. This is the way to make Bishops absolute Lords of Kings and States , and all the world , if they can make them believe that on pain of damnation for schism , all must obey them even in every indifferent thing . 18. If you would ferret him out of his Burrough , ask Mr. Dodwell , what if the Bishop of the place where I live contradict the Archbishop , or the Synod , or most of the Bishops in the land , which must I obey to escape damning schism ? Doubtless he will allow me to disobey my Bishop . But what if the National Synod gainsay the Provincial ? He will say , I may disobey the Provincial ? But what if a Council of many Nations , called General , gainsay the National ? and it be known that our National Church is gainsayed by the far greatest part of the Bishops in the world ? which must I obey ? If the National , why not a Provincial against them ? And why are not they Schismaticks for disobeying a General Council ? If it be the greater Council that I must obey , 1. What 's become then of his doctrine of obeying the Episcopacy of the place where we live ? 2. And then we are brought under a foreign Jurisdiction . 3. And who but the Pope must call that General Council , preside , approve , & c. ? 4. And among all the erroneous and contradicting Councils called General , how shall all Christians know which of them to obey ? We see whither all will come at last . But saith Bishop Bilson , To such Councils called General , we owe respect for concord , if they abuse us not by error or usurpation ; but subjection and obedience we owe them none . 19. How hardly will these men ever resolve one's conscience which is to be taken for the Episcopacy of the place , when there are in the same place both different species of Bishops , and also divers Bishops of the same species , and all pretending to be right . In Ireland both the Papist and Protestant Bishops pretend to just succession ; and so they did in Bohemia , Poland , Transylvania , Hungary , &c. And doth salvation lye on mens knowledg who hath right ? 20. And how contrary is it to the way of Christ , and the ancient Church ( that made the Baptismal covenant the terms of salvation ) for men to make it necessary for every poor man and woman that will have Covenant-right to salvation , and escape damning schism , to be able to decide the controversies between all such pretenders , and to know whether their Bishops be of a true species , and have true Ordination , and to be such rare Historians as to know that all the line of Ordainers down from the Apostles to their Bishops , were truly ordained ? O difficult terms ! 21. Doth he not condemn all those Ancient and Modern Christians as Fautors o● damning Doctrine , who thought that when there were none of the Clergy to do it , lay-men might baptize and give the Lords Supper ? Grotius told us his judgment for it in Dissertat . de Caenae administrat . ubi Pastores non sunt : And he hath vindicated Tertullian's judgment for it , confessed by Rigaltius . Anton. Govea tells us it was the case of the Christians of Malabar , &c. called of St. Thomas , whose Bishops being all destroyed , they caused a Deacon to administer the Eucharist , as the Bishops and Presbyters had done ( which Grotius also repeateth ) . Ionan . Antiochenus magnified by Socrates , lib. 6. cap. 3. when at Antioch there were two Churches , with two Bishops , Meletius and Paulinus , stuck to Meletius till he died , and after , for three years , would communicate with neither . Did he by this become a damned Schismatick , or lose his Covenant-right to salvation ? 22. Many of old were chosen for Bishops before they were baptized ( the cases of Ambrose , Nectarius , Synesius , &c. are known ) : If the Church thought them all to be in a state of damnation , for want of the Sacrament , it 's strange that they would choose them to be their Bishops ( though it was irregular ) . Indeed it 's true that Grotius saith ( ibid. in fine ) , that Chrysostomes , Nazianzenes , and others cases tell us , that it was ordinary in the Greek-Church to delay baptizing even the children of the faithful , till at full years ( about Twenty ) . Were they all that while without any promise of salvation , or ordinary hope ? 23. What a task will it be for Mr. Dodwell to tell us what state the baptized are in till they receive the Lords Supper ? Baptism saveth them once ; but yet till they receive the Lords Supper by a Minister , in successive Episcopal Orders , they have no Covenant-title to salvation , by his way . But some Communicate not till Thirty years old , some not till One and Twenty , and in England scarce any before Sixteen . Are they all this while the children of God , or of the Devil ? And when is it that their Christianity ceaseth for want of the other Sacrament ? I believe that if they truly believe , they are Gods children before they come to the second Sacrament ( or the third , as some call it . ) Was Constantine Mag. in a state of damnation , who was not baptized till near his death ? Or the good Emperour , Valentinian , who died unbaptiz●d , but taken by Ambrose for a blessed man ? What absurdities are men fain to use , to get the Mastery of the Christian world , by making men believe that they can save or damn them by the power of Sacraments ? 24. And how is this man for Conformity , by which they subscribe assent to the certain salvation of Infants , so dying without Confirmation ; and ordain that the Lords Supper be not Administred to any till they are ready to be Confirmed , by learning the Catechism , and recognizing the Covenant ? &c. 25. Doth he not make the chief Bishops and Reformers of the Church of England , to be the promoters of the Doctrine which he accounteth so damnable , when Dr. Stillingfleet in his Irenicon recites the words of Cranmer , and others of them , at a Consultation , down-right against not only the necessity of his uninterrupted succ●ssion , but also even of Episcopal Ordination it self ? And I have elsewhere cited about Fourteen of them , for the validity of Ordination without Bishops : And Dr. Stillingfleet , Bishop Edw. Reignnolds , and many more , held that no Form of Government was of Divine determination . Did all these plead for damning Schism , against all title to salvation ? 26. And what could more directly contradict the main tenor of the Gospel , which tells us of the saving power of the Word Preached , how it converteth souls , and promiseth salvation to all that truly believe and repent ? Insomuch that Paul thanks God that he baptiz●d few of the Corinthians , because God sent him not to baptize , but to Preach the Gospel ? 27. But his Doctrine feigneth , that God will damn them that truly believe , repent , love God , forsake sin , for want of the Sacrament : or else that the Word converteth none , but only Sacraments convert men . 28. And then it will follow , that none but unbelievers , impenitent wicked men should be first admitted to the Sacrament ; for if that only converteth , then it is only the unconverted that must first be received to it . 29 When all 's done , he doth but contradict his end ; for it 's hard to find a National Episcopacy on earth , which imposeth no unlawful thing on Ministers or people : And with all such he speaketh not for our Communion . 30. Either Ordination , and Collation of Church-power , must be given by Superiors , or by Equals : if by Equals , why may not Presbyters make Presbyters ? If by Superiors , then who shall give the Pope his Power ? Or if you think any other be the highest , who makes them such ? Who giveth the Archbishop of Canterbury his Power ? 31. In short , as far as I can understand , these men deny all Covenant-right to salvation to all men living , and all true Sacraments and Church-Communion , or at least , all knowledg of any such thing ; seeing , as it is certain , that in most Churches such Ordination as they describe , hath not had an uninterrupted succession , so no man is sure that any one Church or man hath had such . And they that silence us for not subscribing , declaring and swearing obedience to our Diocesans , and other Ordinaries , are bold men , if they dare swear themselves , that they are true Bishops , and have any Authority to rule and command us , by an uninterrupted succession of a Canonical Episcopal Ordination down from the Apostles . But I have already in my Book of Concord , Part 3. Chap. 9. opened so many palpable , and pernicious absurdities , and ill consequents of Mr. Dodwell's Doctrine , which he dare not undertake to answer , but s●ly passeth by , that I must expect the Reader will there peruse them , who will judg uprightly between him and me ; and therefore will hear what both have said . And those that will judg falsly upon partial trust , to save themselves the labour of tryal , are out of the reach of ordinary means to be saved from deceivers . CHAP. IV. My words of Gods Collation of Ministerial Authority , Vindicated from the forgeries and fallacies of Mr. Dodwell . § . 1. CHRIST hath taught me to judg of Prophets , or Teachers , by their fruits more than by their cloathing , Mat. 7. And the fruits which are of God , are those which express the Divine Nature and Image , viz. holy Light and Truth , holy Love , and holy Life and Practice , and the promoting of these in the world . And Christ hath taught me , that the Devil is , 1. Against holy Light and Truth , the Prince of Darkness , and a Lyar , and the Father of Lyes . 2. Against holy Love , accusing , slandring , and rendring as odious the servants and ways of Christ. 3. Against holy , righteous , and sober living ; and an opposer of it , and a persecutor and murderer of the Saints . And those that are likest Satan in these three parts of his Image , and whose works are more certainly the works of these three Diabolical Principles , I am taught by Christ to judg of by their fruits ▪ So much as there is in Mr. Dodwell's labours , of holy Truth , holy Love , and helps to holy living , so much sure is of God. But so much as there is in his , or any of his Parties cause , of deceit and falshood , and defence of ignorance , so much as there is of Malignity , Calumny , or making odious the servants of Christ ; so much as there is of cruelty and destruction , and silencing faithful Ministers , and promoting ungodliness , by upholding its defences , I am obliged to resist , as being from him , against whom in my baptismal Covenant I was engaged . § . 2. He giveth his Reader the sum of my doctrine in this point , p. 29 , &c. a chain of forgeries , or putid falshoods . Either he knew that he wrote falsly , or he did not ; if yea , then it seems he thinks that God or his Church needed his lyes : if not , how unfit is he to write against what he understandeth not ? But what made him devise a frame of his own words of above six pages , to express my words by , if he meant not to deceive those that would believe his writing without reading mine ? § . 3. And whether it be from the Lord of love , or the enemy of love , that he goeth so far to the unchurching and damning of so many of the Reformed Churches , besides the Churches of the Southern and Eastern parts of the world ( if not of all Churches on earth ) let the sons of Love consider . § . 4. And whether his endeavours to persuade all the Nonconformists to give over preaching Christs Gospel , and all publick Worship of God , till they can conscionably conform , and his reasonings for that frame that hath long excluded true discipline , and sheltered ignorance and ungodliness , be of God , and all his copious discourses to that end , are to save souls , or to starve and murder them , I leave to mens impartial trial . § . 5. I so often and fully repeated my judgment of the Calling of the Ministry , as leaveth his Forgeries inexcusable . The sum is this . 1. There is no power but of God. 2. Gods universal Laws are the prime Laws , and the only universal Laws of the Church or world . 3. In his Laws God hath established or instituted the work and the species of that Ecclesiastical Ministry which he will have to teach and guide his Church to the end of the world . And therein signified his owning of them as sent by him , and promised them his help and blessing . 4. In that Law he hath told us what men they are that he will thus own and bless , and described the Essentials and the Integrals of their Receptive disposition or qualifications . 5. He hath in that Law told us who shall be the tryers and judgers of the personal qualifications ; and that ordinis gratia , ordinarily their approbation , choice , or consent , shall be a relative part of their Receptive qualification . 6. God himself giveth all the personal qualifications . 7 He is ready to help the approvers and chusers to discern all these , and to judg aright of them . 8. The person being thus made a capable Recipient by personal qualifications and relative ( due Approbation , Election and Consent ) God's Donation or Law doth give him Right , and oblige him to the office-work . And the Electors , Approvers , and Consenters , are none of the proper efficient Donors or causes of this right and obligation , but only efficient causes of his relative receptive capacity . 9. That therefore the right and obligation is immediately from Gods Law by resultancy , as the established medium of Gods conveyance ; but not immediately without any means of his receptively , to make him materiam dispositam . 10. That all this is true both of Soveraign Civil Power , and of Church-power in Bishops and Pastors . 11. That yet besides Approbation and Election , God hath for the publick notice and order of the Church , appointed a Regular Ministerial Investiture , by which the Approved shall be solemnly put into possession ( as Kings are crowned , and Ministers instituted ) : and Ordination usually containeth both the approbation , part of the election , and the investiture . 12 But this Investiture being but a Ministerial delivery of possession , proveth not the Investor to be any Donor of the Power to the King , or to the Bishop or Pastor . 13. Nor is it necessary save ordinis gratia , and in foro ecclesiae , to avoid intrusion and confusion ▪ but not when it is set against the end , or the end may and must be sought without it . 14. Who it is that hath the power of this Ordination ( Approbation and Investiture ) is much of the controversie of these times : some say it is the Magistrate : but those that say it is the bishops , are not agreed what species of bishops it is ; whether the chief Pastors of each particular Parish true Church , or only a Diocesan that is the sole bishop of many parishes that are no true Churches ; or only Diocesans that are Archbishops over many true Parish-churches and bishops . 15. But the Fundamentum juris being Christs Statute-Law or Grant , and all that is left to man being but qualitatively or relatively to make the person an immediately capable Recipient , and ministerially invest him ; therefore it follows , that if at Alexandria , Antioch , Ierusalem , Cesarea , Constantinople , London , all the old bishops were dead or hereticks , a just title may be restored without the ordination of one that had successive canonical ordination ; because there needeth no efficient donor but Christ and his Law , and the receptive capacity may be without such ordination where it is not to be had ( as among Papists that will not ordain one on lawful terms , &c. ) for Order it self is but for the thing ordered , and not against it : And I will have mercy and not sacrifice ●morals before rituals ) ; and all power is to edification , &c. are certain rules . And God never made men judges in partem utram libet , whether there shall be Churches , and Pastors , and Worship , or none ; or whether there shall be Civil Government or none ; no , nor of what the species the Church-Offices shall be . 16. I use to explain this by many expository , similitudes . 1. If the Laws of God authorize Soveraignty , and the Constitution of the Kingdom say it shall be Monarchy ; were it Elective , the Electors are not Efficients of power , but determiners of the Recipient : And if it be Hereditary or Elective , the Investers by coronation , are no efficients of the power ; but Ministerial deliverers of possession , and that but necessary ad ordinem , and not ad esse potestatis . 2. If the King by a Charter to the University , state the power of the Chancellor , Vicechancellor , Proctors , and all the Masters of Colledges , and then tell them who shall be capable , and how chosen , and how inve●ted ; here his power is immediately from the Kings Charter , as the efficient Instrument ; and all that others do is but to determine of the Recipient , and invest him . 3. So it is as to the power of the Lord Mayor of London , and the Mayors and Bailiffs of all Corporations . 4. So it is in the essential power of the Husband over the Wife ; the woman chuseth who shall have it ; and the Parson that marrieth them , investeth him in it ; but God only is the efficient donor of his Law. 17. Therefore it is not in the power of the Electors , Approvers , or Investors , to alter any of the Power established by God. If both the woman and the Priest say , that the man shall be her Husband , but shall have no government of her , it is a nullity ; Gods Law shall stand . If the City and the Recorder say , You shall be Lord Mayor , but not have all the power given by the Kings Charter , its vain , and he shall have all that the Charter giveth him . If the A Bp crown the King , and say , You shall be King , but not have all the power stated by the Constitution on the King , this depriveth not the King of his power , ( unless he give away that which God hath not stated on him , but men ) so if an Ordaining Prelate , Patron , or Parish say , This is a true Parish Church , and we choose , and Ordain you the true Pastor of it , but you shall have but part of the true Pastoral Power stablished on the office by God , it 's null : Gods Institution shall be the measure of his power . 18. But I confess , that if God had left Church-Officers as much to the will of men as he hath done the Civil , the case had been otherwise ; for Monarchy , Aristocracy , and Democracy , are all lawful : And the King , or other supreme power may make new Species of Judges , and Magistrates , and Officers , and alter them as they see cause . And it would have been so in the Church , if as the Italians at Trent would have carried it , Christ had immediately Instituted only the Papacy , and left it to the Pope to make Bishops , and to Bishops to make Priests : And yet I would not wrong the worst . I cannot say , that they would have empowered the Pope to change the Species of Priests or Bishops . But God hath fixed the Species , by making a setled Law for all the work , and all the Authority to do it , though Accidentals may be altered in work and Office. § . 6. This is the clear state of my assertions , which how grosly Mr. Dodwell hath falsified in his forged description , I will not stay to open . But it is a great stress and fabrick that he layeth on the contrary supposition , that his Species of Bishops are the givers of the Powers , and so we can have no other , or more than they are willing to give us : And let him that thinks he spoke a sentence of truth and sense , to prove it , enjoy his error . I would quickly prove the contrary to him , if I knew what he denieth . § . 7. I. If he deny that God hath Instituted the Office of the sacred Ministry , and Pastorship in his Law , 1. The Scripture will shame him to all that believe , and understand it . 2. And if it be not divinely established , men may alter it ; and what is all this stir about , to keep up their Domination ? § . 8. II. If he think that God hath only Instituted Teachers , or Rectors , in genere , but not in Specie , then I give him the same answer as before . Scripture will shame him , and men may make new Species of Church-Pastors , and unmake , or alter them ; and how many , or how oft , who knows ? And who be the men that have this Office-changing-power , that we may know whether , and how far , and how long we are bound to obey them ? § . 9. III. If he think that Gods Law hath not described the Essential Qualifications of the Recipient , then Prelates may make Pastors of Infidels , Mahometans , Bedlams , or Blasphemers , if not of Horses or Dogs . § . 10. IV. If he think that Gods Law hath determined of no way of Election , Approbation , or judging who is capable , then every man may make himself a Bishop or Priest , and the Turk may make Bishops for Christians , or a company of Lay-enemies and persecutors may do it ; and then the Bishops Judgment and Ordination will have no Divine Authority . § . 11. V. If when the Recipient is duly qualified , and chosen , and capable , he does not think that Gods Law , or Grant , is a sufficient signification of his Donative will , and a fundamentum juris , and an obliging instrument , 1. He must deny the very nature and force of Gods Law , and Grant. And 2. He maketh it less effective than the Laws , Charters , and Donations of men are ; For which he cannot have the least shew of true reason . § . 12. VI. Can he devise any other sort of power in the Ordainers , than I have named ? What is it ? If he say , that they give the Office-power ; I ask , Is the controversie about the word [ Give ] or the Act ? If that which I have named be called giving , let him use his liberty , and call it how he will. 1. But as to the Thing , what is it more than I have described ? It is God , and not man that made the Office in genere & specie . Did our Bishops make the universal Law , which stablisheth the Office in the world ? 2. And the Bishop never had that power , and therefore cannot give that which he had not : It 's Dr. Hammond's reason against Presbyters ordaining , N●mo dat quod non habet . The word Office or Power and Duty , signifieth an Accident , which cannot transire a subjecto in subjectum . The Orda●ners have their own power , but they have not another mans . 3. Do they give it as Masters and Owners , or only as the Donors Ministers ? No doubt they will say as his Ministers And do I need to prove to Mr. Dodwell , that servants are not the Donors , and give not their own , but deliver their Masters ? Stewards themselves are but entrusted with the performance of their Masters will , in delivering his Goods as he requireth them . § . 13. And this is so evident a truth , that the Papists themselves , who would fain have all power flow from the Pope , are yet forced to plead for it , ( as you may see in W Iohnson's , alias Terret's answer to my first ) because else they cannot defend the Papal Power . For the Pope hath been sometimes chosen by the Roman people , sometime by the Roman Presbyters , sometimes by people and Presbyters , sometime by the Italian Bishops , sometimes by Emperors , and now by Cardinals ; and none of all these were Popes , nor had Papal power ; and if they were the givers , must give what they never had : Whereupon the Papists are fo●c't to grant that the Electors do but determine who shall be the Recipient , but that the power floweth to him ●m●edi●tely from Gods Law or Institution . § . 14. And the Prelatists must needs say the same , or else grant , that Inferiors , that never had Superior power , may yet give it others ; for how else shall the supreme Ecclesiastical power , in every National Church , be given ? If it be in a Primate , or a Synod , those that have not the supreme power must give it ; for there is none above them , or equal to do it : And so Archbishops are chosen , and Councils called . § . 15. And thus almost all Societies , by contract , are formed . e. g. The King giveth Commission to several men to List voluntary Souldiers , and be their Captains , and command them : Every Souldier chooseth his own Captain , and thereby subjecteth himself to him ; but it is not by giving him his power , for that floweth immediately from the Kings Commission ; but by making himself a subject to it , and so ma●ing the Captain Relatively , a Recipient of power from God , and the King , over this particular man ; for the Soldiers have no governing-power to give , nor are superiors to their Captain ▪ § . 16. And thus Servants imprope●ly only make men their Masters , not by giving them a Domestick Ruling-power ( which they never had themselves ) , but by making themselves the Correlate Subjects , and so putting their Masters into the Relation , to which Gods L●w immediately giveth the Ruling-power . All the power is from God : and God doth not first give it the Servant , Souldier , &c. to give the Master , or Captain , but the Servants , or Souldiers consent is , a Causa sine quae non , dispos●tiva Recipientis , to make the Receiver capable of it from God. § . 17. And indeed all Kings and Soveraigns thus hold their Soveraignty from God. Though God hath not made the form , in Specie , necessary ; all power is of God , and the Soveraignty from him , by no mediate Efficient below his Law : It 's a falshood in politicks to say ▪ that the people , as such , efficiently give the Soveraign his power , and that he is universis minor in Authority , though he is not universis melior ; and therefore their common good is more than his , the finis regiminis ▪ Nor is it true , that Richard Hooker saith , that in defect of Heirs it escheateth to the people ; but only that it belongeth to the people to choose a new Recipient , to whom the power shall flow from Gods Law , and not from them . I do not think that the King of France , Spain , or England , will believe that their power is given ●fficiently by , and floweth from their People , Parliaments , or the Prelate that Crowneth them . And the case is evidently the ●am as to the Ministry . § . 18. And the French Papists ( by some called Protestants ) , who are for the Ecclesiastical Soveraignty of General Councils above the Pope , do not believe that the Pope giveth them their power , though he may call them : But whoever calleth them , or chooseth them , they suppose that God only giveth them their power . § . 19. And in all these cases , it is notorious , that an interr●ption of due Election and Investiture , hindereth not the restoration of interrupted power . If the Law say , whoever is thus and thus chosen to be Lord Chancellor , Lord Chief Iustice , Lord Admiral , &c. shall have such , and such power , and be thus , and thus invested in the place , if there were an intercision of an hundred y●ars , the next person , so chosen , will from the Law immediately receive his power . And the Investiture is but for publick Order , and the Investers regular succession ( no nor the act it self ) , never necessary , ad esse , where it cannot be had , as I proved against Mr. D. in my Book of Concord . The Archbishops succession that Crowneth him , is not necessary to the power of the King. § . 20. And obligation to the Office-work , is as essential to the Officer , as is the power to do it : And it is only the Governours that lay on another an obligation to duty ( except what by contract a man layeth on himself ) : and none are the obliging Governours of the highest Powers , Civil or Ecclesiastical , but God ; therefore theirs must flow only from God. Therefore the thing is not unusual . And if Bishops were as much superior to Parish-Pastors , as the Lord Chancellor is to a Constable , yet they were but Governours of them , in tantum quoad exercitum , and not Donors of their power : The Constables power is immediately from the Soveraigns Law , and so is the Ministers from Christ ; for he is the only universal Soveraign . § . 21. Mr. Dodwell saith , These are bare similies . Ans. These are plain explications of the conveyance of power from the Soveraign of all . He saith , That the power is not properly given by the Ordainer , is but begged by me . Ans. A begging affirmer may easily write Books at that rate . But saith ●e , They connot give an instance from humane Charters , where the acts of men , not invested , are valid in Law. Ans. 1. Will you tell the King so to his saace , that before his Coronation no act is valid that he doth ? 2. No doubt but ( as publick Matrimony after secret Marriage is necessary , in foro civili ordinis gratiâ , where it may be had , and yet when it was done by a Justice , without a Priest , yea , or by the persons publick contract only , it was no nullity , no , nor coram Deo before , so ) to regular order , the most orderly Investiture is needful , but not ad esse , much less that all the Investers circumstances also , and all his predecessors , have been regular . 3. Investing here , is the act of a servant only , solemnizing the entrance , or delivery of possession : But such a servant is not the Owner , and Don●● of th● power . 4. The Papists and Protestants confess that the power of Inv●sting is so humane and mutable , that it cannot be necessary , ad esse potestatis . I told you how oft the power of choosing ●nd investing Popes hath beeen changed . And the old Canons make the Act of three Bishops necessary to Invest , or consecrate one . But did God determin● of three ? Or can you prove on● Bishops Ordination a Nullity ? 5. In the Civil State some Officers are made without any Investiture ( as Constables , Headboroughs , Church Wardens and others ) , and some the Charter imposeth Investiture on : But whether if Recorders , Stewards , Town Clerks , that by Charter are to Invest , be dead , or refuse their Act , the Mayor , Bayliff , or other Officers be therefore none , and the Government be dead , let Lawyers tell you . 6. Sure I am that Hen. 4. and the rest of the Germane Emperors , who fought , and strove so long against Hildebrand , and his Adherents , for the Investing-power , were no Bishops ; and all the Councils of Bishops , who stood for the Emperors , never took them for B●shops ; and therefore thought not that Ivesting was an Act proper to Episcopal-power . 7. I have before proved , that ancient Writers , and Papists , and many Protestants agree , that Baptism is valid administred by Lay-men , that I say not women . 8. Mr. Dodwell , self-condemningly saith , that a presumptuous Ordination of the Priest serves to the validity of Sacraments , though indeed he were not Ordained ; and that God is bound to make such Acts to the people good . 9. Mr. D. must beg belief instead of proving it , if he tell us , that the stated teaching of Gods Word to a Church , is not as truly the work of the Pastor , as is the Admistring the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper . It is one of the principal of the Jesuits jugglings , to make the people think , that till they can prove their Teachers the rightly Ordained Ministers of Christ , they are not bound to hear them , or believe them . Our Parents ( mostly ) were never Ordained Bishops , or Priests : Must not Children therefore hear them , and believe them ( fide humanâ ) ? And hath not that God , who appointed Parents to teach his Law to their children , lying down , and rising up , and to educate them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord , thereby signified , that Parents instruction is the first ordinary means appointed by God for the conveying of saving knowledg , and faith ? And if the help of Parents , though unordained , be Gods ordinary means of the first saving faith , shall We say with such men as Mr. Dodwell , that we have no Covenant right to salvation , till we have the Sacrament from the hand of a Minister that had a regular Ordination , uninterruptedly down from the Apostles ? 10. Did the Three hundred , Act. 2. and the Eunuch , Act. 8. refuse Baptism till they were satisfied by proof , that the Baptizers were rightly called Ministers ? Paul tells those that questioned his Apostolick power , that he was an Apostle to them whatever he was to others ; and that they should know first , whether Christ were in them , and so whether he were not a true Minister , and not begin at the trying of the Ministry , 2 Cor. 13.4 , 5 , 6 , 7. Gal. 3.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. &c. 11. The Acts of the Parliament , called irregularly by General Monk , were they that restored King Charles the 2 d and were confirmed by him as valid , through the defect of a Regular Summons , and by necessity . 12. I have fully proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy , that the Species of Bishops , which Mr. Dodwell pleaded for , is not the same which the Churches had for 200. or 300. years . And then where is his regular succession from the Apostles ? § 22. He saith also , p. 37. They cannot give an Instance ( of any power setled by Charter ) , whereupon the Acts of any persons , lawfully Invested , though confessedly less qualified , are not thought valid : A plain sign that their Investiture doth properly confer such power . Ans. Words fitted to deceive . 1. He that is unqualified is not lawfully Invested , and yet the Act of the Invester may be right , had the Recipient been lawful . 2. He saith , Less qualified ; when he knew that our question is of the unqualified . 3. Investiture giveth it , as the Act of the Power and Donor , by a servant delivering orderly possession , but doth not make , or prove the Investing Minister the Owner , or Donor , no more than he was that from the Emperor Henry delivered the Bishops the Staff and Ring ; or the Priest that Marrieth the persons 4. Burroughs and Cities choose , and return Burgesses for Parliament by Charter ; yet if they are unqualified when they come thither , the choice is judged null . If a City choose , and Invest a proclaimed Rebel for Mayor , I will believe it null , or invalid , though Mr. D. will not : And if he write Forty Books with such streams of confident words , to prove , that the Election , and Investiture of the d●●lared Heretick Bishops at Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople , and most of the Empire in many Ages ( Arrians , Eutichians , &c. ) were yet judged valid by the Councils of the Orthodox , no man that ever read the Councils will believe him . 5. Nor will I believe him , that any Bishops Ordination can make a true Bishop , or Priest , of a Woman , an Infant , or a professed Heathen , Infidel , or proper Heretick , or any uncapable person , any more than he can make a Woman to be a Husband , or a dumb man the University Orator . § . 23. He saith , They cannot give an Instance of any Power setled by Charter , whereupon a failure of all who are by the Charter empowred to dispose of Offices , the power must devolve to those who are not by the Charter empowred to dispose of them and where such a Charter is not thought in Law to fail , by becoming unpracticable , till the supreme power interpose , &c. Ans. Still the same fraud : If all empowred to dispose of Offices , is an ambiguous word . The Prince disposeth of them , by giving the Power , and the Electors by choosing the Receivers , and the Minister by delivering the Insignia : If Electors , and all die indeed , there are none to determine of the Receiver : And yet if the Plague kill most of the Electors at Age , and leave not a due number , when the rest left come to Age , and choose , the Charter will renew the Office-power . 2. But if it be only the Ministerial Invester that faileth , the sense of the Lawgiver must be judged of by the words , and by other notices , and the light of common Reason . e. g. Whether it be the meaning of the Charter which saith , that the Recorder shall give the Oath , or the former Mayor shall deliver the Insignia , that if the Recorder , or Mayor be dead , or sick , or mad , or wilfully refuse , the City shall have no Mayor ; or if no Priest will Marry folks , all England must live unmarried ; or if the Archbishops and Bishops will Ordain none but Hereticks , all the Churches must have no other Ministers . And here Nature and Christ teach us , that the Means is only for the End , and Order for the thing ordered ; and God will have us understand his own Laws so , as that Rituals give place to Morals : I will have mercy , and not sacrifice . And sure if the King of Spains Charter , for the making of Governours at the West Indies , should not express , or reasonably imply a Remedy , in case of the failure of circumstances of meer Order , his Countrey might be lost before they could send to Spain for a new Charter or new power . And Mr. D. saith , Which is the very case impugned by me of the Nonconformists : And so judg whether he must not turn a Seeker , and say , that all Ministry , Churches , and Sacraments cease , till a new Commission comes from Heaven , upon the failure of every such circumstance ; yea , when almost all the Churches charge each other with failures and intercisions , and the very species of the Ordainers is so much altered . If the King send his Army into the Indies ( or his Navies ) , and mention no power but the Generals , as chief , or no way of choosing a new General , but by the Field-Officers choice , and giving him an Oath by the Secretary , &c. yet no man doubteth but it was his meaning , that if the General die , or turn Rebel , yea , and the major part of the Field-Officers , or the Secretary , the Army should choose another General , rather than perish , and the Kings service miscarry . § . 24. He addeth , They cannot give an Instance of any humane Charter , that ever allows any person empowered , to extend his own power by a private exposition of the Charter , against the sense of all the visible supreme powers of the society . Ans. This opens the Core of the Aposthume . 1. We deny , as confidently as any French , or Italians affirm , that there is any such thing at a supreme visible power over the universal Church , under Jesus Christ ; and therefore none such is disobeyed , or contradicted . 2. And we maintain , That by Divine appointment there is no visible National supreme Church-power , but that of the Civil Christian Soveraign ; and therefore none such disobeyed . 3. And we hold , that no man can extend his own power further than Christs own Law extendeth it . False expositions give no power . 4. And therefore we prove by your own Rule , that ( Christ being the only supreme universal Ruler , and having described and specified the Office of a Pastor , and order of a Church ) no Bishops can by their private exposition ▪ turn a single Church into a Diocesan , or a Presbyter of Christs description into an half Presbyter of their own making : But if they make a man a Pastor , his power and work shall be what Christ saith , and not what the Orda●ner will. Investing-Ministers Acts are null , if they contradict the Order of the Donor : If the King give you a Parsonage of 300. l. a year , and the Instituter say , you shall have but 100. l. out of it , it 's vain ; he instituteth you but as the Donors instrument in the same Benefice , and power given by him . § 25. He addeth , p. 38. Where can they find such a Charter for the power of Presbyters in Scripture as they speak of ? Ans. Nay , then we are far from agreeing , if you think that the very Species of a Pastors Office is not found in Scripture , as of Christs institution . Th●n it seems , the Bishops make the very Species : The Italian Bishops at Trent scarce gave so much to the Pope . Then why may not the Bishops put down Presbyters , if they make the Species , or make as many Species as they please ? Indeed Dr. Hammond thought that there was no evidence of the Order of Subject Presbyters in Scripture-times . And if God instituted none , let us have none . But I have told you before , and often , where in Scripture the true Pastors Office is described . § . 26. He adds , They may find some actual practices ; but will they call that a Charter ? Ans. This is indeed to strike at our foundation . If we prove not Christ to be King , and Lawgiver , and that his Laws , or Governing-precepts , were partly given by himself , and partly by his Spirit , in his Commissioned Apostles , and these Recorded , Sealed , and Delivered in Scripture : If we prove not , that these , as the authorized Agents of Christ , delivered his Will by words and practice , in setling , and describing the Pastors of his Churches , then take the Ministry , and spare not for mans invention . I cited you before , the Texts that are our proof . But if the Office , which you call Priestly , be of mans making in specie , I doubt the Diocesans will prove so much more ; for many Papists doubt of the Divine right of Prelacy , that doubt not of the Divine unalterable right of the Priestly , or Presbyter-power and work . And will this cure men of Schism , to tell them , that God hath not so much as made , and specified the Parish-Pastors Office , and it is but a humane invention which you forsake ? § . 27. And I would crave of this confident man to consider , whether he reach not high , and horrid Sacriledg , if he make the Invester to be first the Owner , and then the Donor ? Did we devote our selves to Patrons in our Ministry , or to Diocesans , or immediately to God ? If we covenanted only to be Gods Ministers , for the Churches good , then let them take heed that claim propriety in us as Priests . And if Tythes and Glebes were devoted to God , and not to Princes , or Patrons , I doubt he that maketh Patrons the Proprietaries , and proper Donors , will prove Sacrilegious , and be convinced at last , that he should only have taken Princes and Pastors for such Trustees as determine of the Receiver , but give not the things . § . 28. If it be otherwise , Princes , Patrons , and Prelates , are greater and richer than I ever thought them 1. Then , all the Bishopricks in England are the King 's , till he give them . 2. Then all the Tythes , Glebes , and Temples in England , are the Patrons , till they give them ; or else the Bishops , or Chancellors , who investeth men in them by institution and induction . And the Patron and Bishop may have a hard suit to determine which is the Proprietor . 3. And then a Bishop that Ordaineth a thousand Priests , was the Owner of all their Relations before ; and so as they that are for the pre-existence of souls , dispute , whether they pre-existed individually , or only in animâ universali ; so these that are for the pre existence of Priesthoods in the Diocesans , must dispute , whether they were in the Prelate a thousand individual Priesthoods before , or but one common Priesthood , that fell into individuals by Ordination . If they say , that they were but virtually in the Prelate , that kills their Cause ; for then they did not pre-exist ( for existere est esse extra causas ) . And this only saith , that the Prelate had an effective vertue that could make them . But the species was made before ; and so was the obliging , and Donative Law ; therefore the Prelate had not power to do what God had done before . § . 29. I take it for granted ( because I know him ) , that all this is nothing to Mr. Dodwell ; but to me it is moreover something , 1. That the highest esteemers of Diocesans Ordination , make it but a Sacrament . 2 And that the Investing Minister is not the Owner and Donor of the Relation and Gift in any of their Seven Sacraments . 1. In Baptism God only giveth the Right and Relation , which the Minister by Investiture solemnizeth , but giveth it not as his own : Else every Lay-man and woman by their judgment , should have multitudes of Christendoms of their own to bestow . 2. In Confirmation the Priest never pretendeth to be the giver of the Spirit , but by his act to fit the person to receive it : The Holy Ghost is said to fall on them that heard the word ( before Baptism ) , Act. 10.44 , 45 and they were after baptized : He fell on them , Act. 11.15 . And Peter and Iohn prayed for the Samaritans , that they might receive the Holy Ghost , Act. 8.15 . and they laid hands on them , and they received the Holy Ghost , v. 17. but not that they gave the Holy Ghost , though by the laying on of their hands , and their prayers , he was given , as he was on them without , Act. 2. 3. And in Matrimony it 's confessed , that the Priest is not the Owner and Donor of the Husbands power , but a Ministerial Invester . 4. And in the Eucharist , even they that think the bread is made God , take not the Priest as the efficient cause , but a disposing instrument ; nor that he giveth God to the Receiver , as the Owner , or Donor , but delivereth him as a Minister . 5. The same is true of Penance , Extreme Unction , and therefore must be so also in Ordination . If the King send a thousand Commissions to Captains , Judges , Justices , &c. the Messenger is not the Owner , or Donor of them all ; nor may make any alteration of them : yea , if he intrust the Chancellor to name all the Justices , he doth thereby but determine of the person that shall receive the Commission , but altereth nothing of the Office , nor is the Donor of it . All this is plain to us , but not to Mr. Dodwell . § . 30. Saith he , p. 39. Are not many actual practices grounded on circumstances ? Are not many of those circumstances obnoxious to great mutability ? Are not ordinary Governours the competent Iudges of their actual change ? Ans. 1. And did not Christ promise , his Spirit to his Apostles , for the performance of their Commissions ? And were not those Commissions to gather , and settle his Churches , and teach them all that he commanded them ? And did not Christ by that Spirit make Pastors and Teachers , as is before proved ? And did not the Apostles faithfully perform their trust ? 2. And doth he not see , that by this he also subverteth his foundation of Prelatical power also , as having no better institution than the Priesthood ? And then who are those Governours of the Church that he talks of , that must judg ? And how prove they their jugding-power ? 3. And it were a kindness , if he would tell us what change it is that th● Diocesans may make in the Priestly Office and work , and tell us the bounds of their power , if it have any ? And whether they may put down the Preaching part , the Praying part , the Sacraments , or which of them ? And whether this be the power that hath put out the Sacramental Cup , and made all the changes that are made in the Church . To tell us of these ordinary Governours changing-power , is a hard word to us , that took Christs Laws , delivered by his Spirit , to be perfect , and unchangeable ; However , some circumstances are changed , which were noted to be but occasional . § . 31. To return his Consequence , p. 40. Since it is certain , that the power of O●daining others , was not given to , nor for some hundred years exercised by that species of Diocesans , who were neither the Bishops of single Churches , associated for personal present Communion , nor were the Overseers of such Bishops , but the Bishops of Diocesses , that have many score , or hundred unbishoped stated worshipping Assemblies , it will follow by his arguing , that these never had their Office from the Apostles , and much less a continued succession of it . § . 32. He next pleadeth the Nullity of the Presbyterians Ordination . 1. Because if they had Ordaining power , it is only in Assemblies where Bishops are Presidents , and Edict them . 2. And because they carry it not by Plurality of Voices . But I am a weary with answering such trifling things , and the later part is a known mistake . I never heard of one contradicting Voice against the Ordination of any that was Ordained in our Synods . § . 33. And he hath half disabled me to answer him from p. 50. forwards , where he feigneth me to maintain , that Authority must necessarily result from true qualifications : For it is taken for uncivil to give his words their proper name . But if the Reader will pardon the Repetition , I may remind him , how probable it is , that Mr. Dodwell trusted that his Reader would believe his words without perusing what I wrote ; where he might have seen , 1. That I say , that the Authority resulteth not from the qualifications , but from Christs Law , Grant , or Charter . 2. That personal qualifications ( of gifts , or grace ) are but part of the necessary Dispasitio Recipientis ; but that moreover there is needful , 1. Opportunity . 2. And need of his Office. 3. And to a Bishop the flocks consent , if not election . And ordinis gratia , ( where moral necessi●y dispenseth not with order ) the Ordainers approbation and consent . 5. And to regular possession , where it may be had , a due Investiture ; so that there is a Relative part as well as a Qualitative of the Receptive disposition necessary . And all the following leaves in which he disputeth against me , as maintaining a power resulting from meer qualities , are so unbeseeming a Divine , and a C●ristian , that I will not soul my paper with their due confutation . But they are suitable to that man who thinks himself wise , good and fit enough to Unchurch and condemn so much as he doth of the Christian world , on pretence of pleading for obedience to the Diocesans . § . 34. And where he adds , p. 50. [ Or that it so depends on them ( qualifications ) as that where the persons ordained may want any of them , there the whol : Ordination must be null , because of the incapacity of the matter . ] This also he denieth . Ans. 1. I still distinguish between the Qualifications necessary ad esse , and those only ad bene esse , or integral . If he would perswade the Reader that I null Ordination for want of the latter , his weakness , or designed ill intent is such as warneth his Readers to take heed of believing him . If he mean it only of the former , as I speak , I have before confuted him that dare say that no qualification is necessary ad esse . Then a Pope Ioan , or woman-Priest or Prelate , or a professed enemy of God or Christ may be a Priest. And he may be a Pastor of a Church to feed them by the Word , who never heard or know what was the Word or Church . Cannot the best believer go to Heaven , if all your Priests will but deny him the Sacrament ? and yet may a man be validly a Bishop , and the Key keeper of Heaven that believeth not that there is a God , a Christ or Heaven , and so professeth ? This maketh me remember the old Roman Canons , how no Bishop must be deposed for lying with his own Sister , unless a great multitude of Witnesses testifie it ; and the Councils that decreed no Layman shall witness against a Clergy-man , &c. But Election , consent , the Ordainers approbation ( ordinarily ) are part of my Qualifications . And if these be unnecessary , what doth the man plead for ? And is a false approbation of a man that wanteth Essentials , more necessary than having them ? How contrary is this to the Doctrine of the Council of Carthage in the Epistle in Cyprian , of Martial and Basilides ; and to many honest Councils ? § 35. P. 90. At the end of this insinuated false accusation , he asketh , [ Where do we find that God ever gave Bishops , Presbyters and Deacons , ( though he gave Apostles , Pastors and Teachers ) ? those extraordinary Offices indeed seem to have been made neither of man , nor by man , but by God immediately , &c. Ans. 1. Hath he said a word to prove that Pastors and Teachers are not ordinary Officers , contrary to the common judgment of the Church in all ages ? 2. Whether he mean [ Bishops ] in the Dative Case , or the Accusative , I know not . If the later , let him speak out and say , God gave not Bishops . But how proveth he that Presbyters ( and Bishops ) are not Pastors or Teachers ? 3. The Text tells you , Ephes. 4.14 , 15 , 16. that these offices were given for the continued stated use of the Church : For the perfecting of the Saints , the work of the Ministry , for the edifying the body of Christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith , and the knowledg of the Son of God , to a perfect man , &c. Was this temporary ? 4. It seems he disclaimeth Bishops being made , in making Apostles . 5. Christ by his Spirit in the Apostles ordered the Churches . § . 36. P. 65. he saith [ They never find any of those Officers to whom succession is at present pretended , made immediately by God , but by the intervention of men , &c. ] Ans. Still deceiving confusion : 1. Intervention is a word of fraud , and may signifie only that act which determineth of , and qualifieth the receiver ; and it may signifie the Donation , or making of the office . It is this that we speak of . 2. The Intervention of infallibly inspired men , commissioned to deliver and record Christs own will , hath an efficiency instrumental in making the office , in that the Spirit in them doth it , and they do make instrumentally the Charter or Law which giveth the power ; and Christ doth what they did by his Commission and Spirit . If you can prove that our Diocesans have this Commission , spirit and power , if they write new Sacred Scriptures , or make new Sacraments , and Church-forms , and offices , we will obey them . But prove it well . 3. Did any man but Christ send forth the Seventy ? Yet most Prelatists hold , that those were the predecessors of the Presbyters . 4. By this it seems he again denieth , that Christ himself instituted the Order of Bishops , by making Apostles . And if so , he will sorely shake his standing ; for then they must prove all their power from the Apostles ( or following persons ) institutions , and not make them successors of the Apostles own Office ( for they made not their own Office ) . And Dr. Stillingfleet thinks there were no Bishops , or few made in the Apostles times , as Dr. Hammond thinks of subject-Presbyters . And if Christs Spirit in the Apostles made not these Offices ( who made the Scripture , which is Gods Law ) , I despair of seeing it proved , that any since them were authorized to make them . And if men only made the Episcopal and Presbyters Office , men may unmake them . § . 37. A case put to me within this hour , remindeth me , how much these men prefer Ordination , not only in it self , but in this circumstance of Prelatical uninterrupted succession , before Baptism , which is our Christning . There are some godly young men that have Communicated in the Lords Supper , that were the children of Quakers and Anabaptists ; some were never baptized , and some know not whether they were , or not ; and being born near Two hundred Miles hence , cannot learn or come to any certainty . The question is , Whether these that have Communicated , should yet be baptized ? which is to make Christians of Christians ? Or whether the higher Sacrament do not eminently contain the lower , as making a man a Bishop , containeth making him a Presbyter , and that containeth eminently his Deaconship ( as some say ) ? If they must be baptized , yet , it implieth the Nullity of their Sacramental Communion before : And if so , Mr. Dodwell must confess , that Priestly exhibition , or investiture is null to an uncapable Subject . But I think most will say , that he should not be baptized , it being done interpretatively . And if so , is his Prelatical mode of Ordination more necessary than actual Baptism ? Besides , that ( as is said ) they make Lay-mens or womens baptizing sufficient ad esse . And yet the Church of England professeth , that only the Two Sacramens , Baptism and the Lords Supper , are generally necessary to salvation . § . 38. Pag. 67 , 68. He would persuade us that the Imposition of hands in Ordination signifieth what he asserteth . But he giveth us not one word of proof of it . Was it the Holy Ghost which was in the imposing Apostle or Prelate that was given by him , and out of him into the Ordained ? No , he was never in Scripture said to be the Ownor , Donor , or efficient conveyer of the Holy Ghost . But Gods will made the Imposition of the Apostles hand , a conditional act to qualifie the recipient to receive the Holy Ghost immediately from God , as the Texts before cited , and many more prove . What if it be once said that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ] when many other Texts expound it ? It 's well known that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth many other causes , mediums , conditions , as well as efficient conveying causes . Is it like to signifie more here than in the Doctrine of Justification , when it is so oft said that we are justified by faith ? And yet faith there , is no efficient instrument conveying or giving us pardon and relative Justification , but only a necessary qualification of the Recipient ( called by Dr. Twisse , Causa dispositiva , which is part of the Materialis ) upon which Gods Covenant immediately pardoneth and justifieth the believer ; so both there and here it is by or through the Act of man , as a moral qualification of the Recipient , made a condition by God. § . 39. After all this , the man cometh himself pag. 72. to distinguish of Qualifications necessary to the being of the office , and to the well-being ; yea , and hath the face to say , that I should have distinguished them ; as if I had not ever done it . Is it not an unprofitable toil to dispute with such men that will pretend that a case by me constantly stated was not stated , and then will long dispute himself for the unqualified without distinction , and after all distinguish in the fag end ? This beseemeth not any man that will pretend to plead for truth . But yet he will not be over-liberal to us ▪ he saith p. 13. All the skill that is requisite essentially , is only in general to know the benefits to be pe●formed on Gods part , and the duties to be promised on mans , and the nature and obligation of Covenants in general ; and the particular solemnities of Ecclesiastical Covenanting . And of this how can any one be uncapable , that is but capable of understanding the common dealings of the world ? Ans. 1. And yet must we have Universities ? and must the Holy Ghost be given by the Bishops for this ? And is there any need to open the Bible to know it ? and must so much riches and honour maintain this much ? and all be damned Schismaticks that turn to better ? 2. Set this qualified Ministry and his great zeal to perswade the Nonconformists to cease Preaching , and his Unchurching the Reformed Churches altogether ; and it 's easie to see what this humble diligent man is labouring for . 3. Do not many millions understand the common dealings of the world that understand not the Gospel ? The natural man receiveth not the things that be of God , for they are spiritually discerned . 4 Is not this a plain design to set up a carnal Kingdom of ignorant , vicious Clergy-men , such as St. Paul saith , Rom. 8 neither are nor can be subject to Gods Law , instead of a holy Catholick Church and Communion of Saints ? and to make Mahometans think that they are Saints in comparison of us , and that Christians are an unholy sort of men ? 5. Either he includeth all that is necessary to the things named by him , or not . If not , then his Priest must know the benefits of Gods Covenant , without knowing what God is , or that Christ is the Purchaser , Covenanter , &c. If yea , ( which I doubt not he will say ) then , O what an excellent body of Theology is included in these few general words ! Then he must know all those Attributes of God and his Relations to man , by which he is said to be our God. He must know all the necessary articles of faith , about the Person of Christ , as God and man in two Natures and one Person , his Incarnation , Birth , Life , Sufferings , Death , Burial ! his Doctrine , his Merits , his Resurrection , Ascension , Glory , Intercession , Kingly and Prophetical office , and last Judgment , and Glorious Kingdom . He must know what Covenant God formerly made , and man broke ; and what sin , original and actual , and what curse and condemnation followed on mankind . And Oh how many great and mysterious things are contained in Gods Covenant-benefits ! On Union with Christ , Reconciliation , Justification , Adoption , Sanctification ; The Doctrine of the Holy Ghost as the Third person in the Trinity , and as the Inspirer of Prophets and Apostles , and Inditer and confirmer of the Scriptures , and the Witness of Christ , and the Sanctifier and Comforter of the Elect , besides Resurrection , Glorification , &c. And what a deal is contained in mans necessary qualification ( Faith , Repentance ) , and promised duty ? And the true nature and use of the Sacraments themselves ? And is all this such a small or easie matter as he seems to intimate ? 6. But hath he yet proved that a true Minister of Christ hath no necessary work but thus to administer Sacraments ? I will yet believe , 2 Tim. 4.1 , 2. that he must preach the Word in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , partly to convert the unconverted , partly to confirm and guide believers ; and that the people should ask the Law at his mouth as being the messenger of the Lord of Hosts . And that the very essence of his office is to be a Minister under the Teaching , Priestly and Ruling office of Christ. 7. And if he had proved that a sorry Priest hath all that is essential to his office , that proveth not that I must take him for my Pastor , no not though the Diocesan command me . Souls are more worth than to be wilfully made the Priests and Prelates merchandize . If a man have all essential to a Physician , and no more , I will not trust my life to his skill , which is less than my soul , though the Bishop bid me . If a woman have all that 's essential to a woman , he is a fool that will take her for his wife , because the Bishop bids him , if she have no more . The Priests that the Pope sent from Italy into England ●hat could speak no English , knew what you mention perhaps . But it 's necessary also that the Pastor teach all this knowledg to all the flock , which is not done with saying few words . This man minds me of the saying of an Atheistical Ph●sician , What needs there all this Preaching and stir ? I can tell them all in three words , it is but think well , and say well , and do well . Dr. Saywell , and Mr Dodwell that are so much for our silence , seem to be too near to this mans mind . But saith St. Paul , Who is sufficient for these things ! 8. Yet this sort of men that can accept of so little of God in the Priests , so be it they will but be ruled by the Prelate ( who I suppose need ad esse be no wiser or better himself in their opinion ) are the rigidest silencers and excommunicators of others the wisest and holiest Pastors and Christians , as Schismaticks , or Hereticks , if they obey not the Diocesan in every indifferent thing , or be not of their mind in what they decree ; such odds is in their demands for God , and for the Prelates . He that doth but understand the common dealings of the world , is capable of saying over the Liturgy of the Sacrament ; and a little knowledg , and no honesty or piety , may serve ad esse . But if the Councils of Prelates , yea or his single Diocesan command him never so many things as indifferent , which the poor Priest feareth are perjury , lying , false worship , or other heinous sins , he is to be Excommunicated from Christian society , and cast out of the Ministry , and as a Schismatick not only to be silenced , but to be damned , if such as Mr. Saywell and Mr. Dodwell , and their Masters be to be believed . § . 40. But saith he , P. 74. How can they prove that Preaching is at all any essential part of the Office ? &c. Ans. 1. From Christs own practice , and his command to those whom he called and sent , and from their practice , and the Holy Ghosts determination by them , Mat. 4.17 . & 10.7 . & 11.1 . Mar. 1.4 , 38. & 3.14 . Luk. 4.18 , 19 , 43. & 9.2 , 60. Act. 5.42 . & 10.42 . Rom. 10.8 , 10 , 14 , 15. Mat. 28.19 Mar. 16.16 , 20. Act. 30.20 . & 8 5 , 2● , 40 & 9.20 . & 13.5 , 42. & 20.7 , 20 , to the end . Phil. 1.17 , 18. 1 Tim. 3.16 . 2 Tim. 3.16 . 2 Tim. 4.1 , 2. 1 Cor 1.21 . 2 Tim. 2.2 , 24. Tit. 2.3 . Where do you find that ever any one in the New Testament was ordained a Mass Priest , or Sacrament Priest , and not a Teacher ? 2. When did you prove that actual giving the Sacrament was essential to a Bishop or Presbyter ? not only ; Paul baptized few , but many Parish Priests leave that work to their Curates , and some Bishop● leave both the Sacraments to their Chaplains or Priests . I suppose you know that in the ancient Churches one Assembly had usually a Bishop with many Presbyters and Deacons ; and usually the Bishop did both preach and celebrate the Eucharist ? Can you prove that the rest did any 〈◊〉 celebrate than preach ? 3. But if you are willing , you may easily know that we take Preaching to ●ave more modes than making a set Sermon in the Pulpit . The Presbyters of old were all Preachers ; Sometimes in the Pulpit when the Bishop or chief speaker was absent , sick or required it ; Sometimes to smaller parties in Houses or Chappels , or lesser meetings ; sometime by conference , as Christ preached to the Woman , Iob. 4. And if you think otherwise , yet I am confident by experience , that it is an easier thing , and requireth less skill to make a Pulpit studied Sermon , than to deal convincingly in conference with particular persons that need our teaching . And a man may learn to say Mass or Liturgies , that hath no tolerable fitness to teach . 4. But if Preaching and Teaching be all one with you as they are with me , is it not a strange question to ask , How we prove that Preaching , that is , Teaching , is at all essential to their Office ? As if you should ask , How we prove that Teaching is essential to a Schoolmaster or Tutor ? or that to Rule is essential to a Ruler ; or to give Physick essential to a Physician ? What can you take the Office to be that includeth not Teaching ? Neither Christs Apostles , nor the ancient Church ever ordained any to give Sacraments without Teaching , ( however Papists make the essence of the Priesthood to be in the power of making the body and blood of God. ) Nay , how can they celebrate the Sacraments without Preaching or Teaching ? Can they justly baptize the adult , and not teach them the great Articles of the Creed which they must profess ? and the great and many duties to be done ? and the great and many benefits to be received ? And doth he think it such a small and easie matter to teach men all the Articles of the Creed , the sense of the Lords prayer , the Ten Commandments , and the nature of the Sacrament of Baptism , and the Lords-supper ? It may be h● will say , that it is some other Preaching that he meaneth . But he speaketh to me , who ( in the hearing of D● Warmstrie , and of Mr. Th. Baldwin , who is yet living ) did offer Bishop Morley when he ●orbad me to preach in his Diocess , to promise him to preach only the Catechism-Doctrine , on Baptism , the Creed , the Lords prayer , the Ten C●mmandments , and the Lords supper . Archbishop Vsher in his ●ermon before King Iames , on Eph●s 4 3. boldly affi●●●th , That l●t the learneds● of them all try it when they will , they shall find that it requireth greater skill to open to the ●gnora●t intelligi●ly these Cat●chism common truths , than to handle points of controverted School-Divinity . § . 41. It may be objected , 1 Cor. 12. Are all Teachers ? and Rom. 12. He that teacheth on teaching . Ans. It 's evident that Teachers or Doctors are there put for some eminently gifted above others in opening and defending sound Doctrine , and not for all Teachers in general . For Exhortation is distinguished from it , which yet is the greatest p●rt of most Sermons . Paul was the chief Speaker , yet Barnabas was a Teacher . We are more than he is , for many Ministers in each Church , where the chief Speaker shall usually preach ; but the other as assistants in their time and place , and not to be meer Sacramenters . § . 42. His next recollections run all upon such intimated or expressed untruths meerly forged by him contrary to my copious Explications , and against the rules of common honesty , that I will not lose my own and the Readers time in particular answers to them . He would perswade the Readers that I affirm that power immediately results from gifts , who never had such a thought , but say it neither resulteth from them , mediately nor immediately . This dealing is so grosly false , that it is neither credit to his cause nor him . Would he make men think that I take him to have most authority or power , that hath the best gifts ? As if the wisest and best man had right to the Crown or Church-power ? If copious discourses to the contrary will not hinder such busie disputers from such inhumane slanders , are they meet to be disputed with ? I have over and over said that , 1. Gifts , or the best abilities . 2. And due election or approbation of the Ordainers . 3. And the peoples election and consent , all set together , do but make up the Qualification or Receptive disposition of the Recipient . 4. Yea , and his consent conjoined ; and that where all these in the necessary degree concur , the power resulteth to that cap●ble person from none of them all , but immediately from God Law , which is his instrument giving power to persons so qualified . And that besides all these , Ministerial Investiture for Orders sake , when it may be had , should introduce him into possession ; yea , and the Magistrate must be judg whom he will countenance , protect or tolerate . But the case of Ordination and Investiture are necessary only where they may be had lawfully , and without crossing their end ; as sacrifice was compared with mercy , and the Rest of the Sabbath compared to works of charity and necessity . § . 43. And as it is the trick of such dealers , p. 81. he must have Governours to do his work ; and therefore must not leave out that which may make us odious to them ; but tells men , that our Hypothesis is unreconcilable with government in this life , in that it permits persons to assume Authority , and to extend it as far as they think fit , by appealing to Writings against the sense of all the visible authority of this life . Ans. 1. But ●f this Hypothesis be none of his Adversaries , but come out of the Meal-Tub , or forge of Inventers , what shall such men be called ? 2. We permit no person to assume Authority . But Writings are not so contemptible to us in comparison of that which you take to be all the visible Authority of the Church . It is your Richard Hooker that saith , that the Law maketh the King , and giveth and measureth his power , and that it's usurpation which obligeth no mans Conscience , when power is taken , and us●d which the Law never gave . What I think of this , I have elsewhere shewed . The Statutes are not so contemptible in this case , but the great Lawyers think they may be appealed to from visible Rulers in several cases . And you must talk at other rates than you have done in your tedious fallacious Vagaries , before wise Christians will believe that we may not appeal from Prelates to the written Word of God , when the power used by them is justly questioned . If not , how ca●e the Reformed Churches to justifie their Reformation ? Was it not by appealing to Scripture against the visible Church Rulers , that were commonly against them ? Were not P●pes , Council , Prelates , and Priests against them , for the far greatest part ? Did it overthrow all Government of the world to appeal from these to the ●cripture ? I hereby undertake to prove , that neither Popes , Prelates , or Priests , have any Church-Authority , b●t what God hat● given them by his Word ▪ And is it not th●● necessary to try it by that Word ? Must we take th●●r own words for all that Popes , or Prelates c●●im ? And it will put the Pope and Council hard to it , to prove any Authority from God , if the Scripture do not give it them : And if it give it them , it may give it others . § 44. And wh●n 〈◊〉 , done , we are far from granting , that we have les● to sh●● for our succession from the Apostle● , than Popes or 〈…〉 have . 1 We are 〈◊〉 that we have the same ●aptism , Eucharist , Creed , L●●ds Pra●●r , D●calogue , and Script●re , delivered down from the A●ostles . 2. We are sure that we have a Ministry of the same species which Christ and his ●pirit in the Apostles instituted . 3. We know that our Churches , and Worship , and Doctrine , are the ●ame that are described , and setled by the Apostles . 4. We know that our present Ministers are qualified as the Apost●●● requi●ed . 5. And that they are Elected , or 〈◊〉 to by the 〈◊〉 , is the Apostles required . 6. And that they have as good an Ordination , and Investiture , as the Apostles ever made necessary to the Ministry : That is , 1. They have the Approbation of senior Pastors , and many of them of Diocesans . All that were put into any places by the Parliament , when the Bishops were down , were to have the Westminster Assemblies Approbation under their hands . And that Assembly , as called , consisted of many Diocesans , with many score grave Eminent Divines , though the Diocesans were not actually present . And a signed Approbation , and Allowance , hath the Essence of all that is of absolute necessity in Ordination . 2. They were Ordained by true Bishops . 1. All true Presbyters are Episcopi gregis , and joyn in Ordination here in Enggland . 2 The chief Pastors of City-Churches , having Curates under them , are Episcopi Eminentes vel Praesides , such as Ordained for above Two hundred years after the Apostles . And 3. The chosen Presidents of Synods were such Bishops . But all these concurred in the Nonconformists Ordinations when the Diocesans were down . They were Ordained at , and by a Synod of Presbyters in some great Town , or City , where the Moderator , and the chief City-Pastors were part . 3. Many of them were Ordained by Diocesans . 4. Many Ordained , as aforesaid , were after approved by Diocesans , some by Imposition of Hands , and all by Word , or Writing ▪ for Archbishop Vsher did in my hearing by Word and in Writing more publickly declare his opinion of such Presbyters Ordination as valid ●though he excused not such as deposed the Diocesans from the guilt of Schism ) ; and so did the many other Bishops , whom I formerly cited ; yea , even Bancroft himself . And surely all this hath all that is essential to Ordination . 5. And we know that such a Ministry hath continued to propagate the Church and Gospel in the world since the Apostles days . But we confess , 1. That we cannot prove , that such Ministers have still succe●ded in the same Towns. 2. Nor that no one , from whom their Ordination came down from the Apostles , did pretend to have Orders , or Authority when he had none . 3. Or that no one of them in 1660. years was an Heretick , or a Schismatick , or a Papist . 4. Or that no one Ordained in wrong words . 5. Or that no one Ordained contrary to the Canons , out of his own limits , or without three Bishops , or without the Presbyters . 6. Or that no Competitors were Ordained by several Bishops . Mr. Dodwell is a great Historian ; when he hath proved all this of all , or any of his Clergy-friends , he hath done something more than multiply words . § . 45. But on the other side , we can easily prove , and have proved , 1. That our Diocesans are not of the same species with those of old . 2 That the Apostles did not make them . I think Mr. Dodwell will say , that the Presbyters first made them by consent ( the Children begot the Fathers ) . 3 And Dr. Hammond will defend it , that there is no certainty , that any Subject Presbyters were made by the Apostles in Scripture times . So that the very species of their Clergy hath no such succession , as distinct from ours . 4. And he that will read the Church-History , and Councils , declaring the multitude of doleful intercisions in East and West by Heresies , the Patriarchs of Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople , Ierusalem and Rome , and most of the chief Seats of Bishops , having been judged Hereticks , Simoniacks , or no Bishops by General Councils ; yea , Roman Bishops judged some of them Infidels , and Diabolical by the Councils of Constance Bas●l , &c. I say , he that knoweth this History , must know , that the Diocesans that from these derive their succession , have certainly had frequent and notorious intercisions . § . 46. And this leads me to another part of Mr. Dodwell's work : viz. his proof that Aidan and Finan were Bishops . As if this had been a great part of his Cause . Such diverting noise is a great part of the art of deceiving . Because I had said , that Aiden and Finan were not Bishops , but Presbyters , that is , when they came out of Scotland into Northumberland , I apprehended that some men of his g●●ius and design , would be willing to mistake me , and therefore Printed an Explication of the Words in the end of my first Answer to Dr. Stillingfleet . But Mr. D would have men think that I said , that they were never made and called Bishops at all ; and that I read not Beda , from whom alone ( near Five and Thirty years ago ) I took almost all that I assert concerning them . Let the Reader see my foresaid Explication . If Mr. Dodwell will give us more than noise and mist about this matter : 1. Let him prove that it was Diocesan Bishops that Ordained these Scots before they came into England , when Beda saith they were sent from those Monasteries that were ruled by Presbyters , and which would not so much as eat or communicate with the Roman Bishops . 2. Let him prove that any Bishops in England Consecrated hem , or made them Bishops here , when Beda tells us that they were the first in the North , and therefore had none here to Ordain them . 3. Let him prove that they were here made true Diocesan Bishops of our species : When , 1. they had no Presbyters at first under them , and therefore ruled none , and had but one Congregation ; for one man can be but in one place at once . 2. Their Church in Lindisfarne was not made of stone , but of wood , covered or thatcht with reeds , and they are not said to have any other Church under them . 3. They went indeed to preach all over the Country , but not as to a Church , but as to Heathens to convert them . 4. Let him prove that ever they took themselves to be of a distinct order from Presbyters . 5. At a Synod ( Bed. c. 25. ) we find no more but the King and his Son , and Hilda a woman-Abbess , and three or four of this sort of Bishops , ( far below our Ordaining City-Presbyters and their Synods . ) But unlearned men that value Books by interest and preconceived opinions , may think that by such talk Mr. Dodwell hath done some great matter . § . 47. But ( saith he , p. 81 , 82. ) Our Hypothesis obliging inferiour Governours to prove their title to their office , and the extent of it , from the intention of their supream Governours , does oblige all to a strict dependance on the supreme visible power , so as to leave no place for appeal concerning the practice of such Government ( which as it lasts only for this life , so it ought not to admit of disputes more lasting than its practice ) , &c. Ans. Alas for the poor world and Church that will be cheated at so gross a rate ! 1. Did you not know that the grand error that Protestants charge Papists with , is the asserting of any such thing as a supreme visible power over the Church universal besides Christ. And did you think that your roteing over the name to them that deny the thing , would make a wise man change his Religion ? 2. By your Hypothesis then no man can prove his title to his Office , who either believeth not that there is any such universal Supreme , or that knoweth not who it is ( I know no Competitors but the Pope , and General Councils , unless the Patriarch of Constantinople be one . ) 3. And he that knoweth not the intention of this Supreme power , is still unable to prove his office . 4. And he that knoweth the intention of the Ordaining Diocesan , is never the better if he know not the intention of the Supreme . And what if the intention of the Supreme , and of the Diocesan are contrary ? 5. But by your Hypothesis the Governours may alter the very species of the Priesthood as they please ; and what ever God saith of it in his Institution or Law , it must be to us no other in kind or extent , than the Governours intend . If they say , I ordain thee to baptize , but not to teach ; or to do both , but not to celebrate the Lords-Supper ; or to do that , but not to pray or praise God ; or not to use the Keys of the Church , our power is limited accordingly ; Then if the Prelates make Mass-Priests , their intention is the measure of their power . Answer the Papists then that ask , Was it ever the intention of the Pope and his Prelates , that the English Bishops should disclaim the Pope , or the Mass , or reform without them as they did ? 6. Seeing the English Bishops , by you , derive their succession from Willfred , and Augustine , and Rome , is not the Church of Rome the ●ittest Judg of the extent of their power , as knowing their own intentions ? Nay , if they were so blind as to intend them power to pull down themselves , may they not recall it ? 7. Did ever Protestant preach this Doctrine , That there is no appeal from the supreme Prelates , to God ? O dreadful ! what may men come to ? and what error so great that a former may not introduce ? Disgrace not the Church of England so much as thus to intimate , that they set up themselves so as that there is no appeal to Scripture , or God himself from them ? God hath commanded Preaching , Praying , Praises , Baptism , the Lords-Supper , holy assemblies , &c. if the supreme Prelates interdict and forbid all these , is there no appeal to God ? I have told you how much Robert Grosthead abhor'd this Doctrine , and so told Pope Innocent the 4 th . What absolute blind obedience to Prelates is this ! 8. And what a reason brings he , That the practice lasteth only for this life , and therefore , & c ? Doth any of our actions here last longer than while they are doing ? Praying , Praise , Sacraments , obeying the King , doing good to the poor , &c. and so swearing , cursing , adultery , rebellion , atheism , blasphemy here , last only for this life . Must we therefore obey men without appeal to God , if they forbid us all duty , and command all sin ? 9. And what did the man mean when he said , That it ought not to admit of disputes more lasting than its practice . Is this the rate of these mens wise disputations ? 1. A murderers practice may be disputed at the Assizes when his act is past . 2. Shall not all the actions of men in this world be examined and judged of by Christ hereafter ? What ? no men judged according to their works , or for any thing done in the body ? 3. Or did he mean that God will justifie us for any Villany that we shall do in obedience to the Supreme Clergy ? 4. Or did he think that by appealing to Gods judgment , we challenge them there to dispute with us ? What to make of this mans demonstrations , little do I know . § . 48. He adds , P. 82. For how fallible soever they may be conceived to be in expounding Scripture , yet none can deny them to be the most certain , as well as the most competent Iudges of their own intentions . Ans. 1. That 's true . And if their intentions may make Doctrine , Worship , and Priesthood , what they please , it much concerneth us that they conceal not their intentions ! But I would I knew whose intention this must be ; whether the supreme Clergies , or the Ordainers ; and what to do if divers mens intentions differ ; and what bounds are set to their intentions ; and how many hundred sorts of Priests Doctrine or worship they may make . 2. You touch their fallibility tenderly , as a thing that some may conceive . But it seems let them never so falsely expound Scripture , their own intentions still shall prevail against all the word of God ? I would you would answer Dr. Stillingfleet's Rational Account , which confuteth you . § . 49. He proceeds , As certainly therefore as God hath made his Church a visible society , and constituted a visible Government in it , so certainly it is to be presumed that their Hypothesis must be false , &c. Ans. 1. Trifle not at this deceiving rate with plain men that love the light . If by a visible Society with a visible Government , you mean ( as we have great reason to think ) , With a visible Government over it besides Christ , do not thus as Mr. Thorndike and others of you do , go on to beg it , and build vast structures on it , but prove it to us and we will yield ; prove to me that the Vniversal Church is a Society that must have one vis●ble supreme Government under Christ , and I here declare to you , that I will turn Papist presently , and will not wrangle against any man for calling me a Papist ( though I may not own all that Popes say and do , as those do that Grotius called Papists . ) I will not talk with Bishop Gunning of a Collegium Pastorum , governing all the Christian world per literas formatas ; nor be so moderate as those French Papists that make an Vniversal Council ( which never was , nor ever must be ) the supreme Church-power . I will presently be for the Pope , though not as absolute . But why answer you not what we have said against it ? particularly my Sermon in the Morning-Lectures against Popery . 2. But if by a visible power in the Church , you mean not one over the Church , the Independents deny it not ; while every City hath its proper Mayor , ( and so every Church its Pastor ) it is a visible power in the Kingdom , but not over it as a Kingdom . All the Justices of Peace are visible powers in the Kingdom , but not Supreme , nor as one Aristocracy over the whole . Seeing all my dissent from Popery , and from you , is founded in my judgment against any one universal Supreme besides Christ , ( Monarch , Aristocracy , or Democracy , I seriously intreat you to write your strongest arguments on that subject to convince me , and answer what I have said to Mr. Iohnson , and you may spare all the rest of your labour as to me . This will do all . § . 50. P. 83. He adds , How can subjects preserve their due Subordination to their Superiors if they practice differently ? and while they defend their practices , and pretend Divine authority for them ? Ans. 1. As the three Confessors did , Dan. 3. and as Daniel did , Dan. 6. and as the Apostles did , Act. 2. & 3. & 4. And as all the Bishops and Churches did for three hundred years . And as the Orthodox did under Valens , Constantine , Theodosius junior , Anastasius , Philippicus , &c. 2. They may defend it by proving , that there is a God , who is supreme , and that there is no power but of him , and none against him ; and that man is not God , and therefore hath no power but limited ; and that to disobey usurpation , is not to disobey power ; and that God must be obeyed before man. 3. This is high language , and harsh to Protestant and Christian ears , What! are you serious ? Must none in Rome , Italy , Spain , France , &c. practise contrary to their Governours ? nor in Turky neither ? Nor in China , Iapan , & c ? Is it unlawful to read the Scripture , to pray , to worship God , to be baptized , to profess our selves Christians , to speak a good word , or do a good deed , to feed our Children , or relieve our Parents , &c. if Governours forbid us ? This is far worse than to forbid the Scripture in a known tongue , if when we know it , we must not obey it if Governours forbid us , nor so much as plead Divine Authority for doing what Gods word commandeth us ? Is Gods authority so contemptible in comparison of Prelates . Or doth it so little concern us , as that we may not so much as plead it for any practice forbidden us by superiours ? This Doctrine must needs startle a Christians heart . It 's far unlike Bishop Bilsons of subjection , and such others . If you really mean so , that whatever God commandeth us in Scripture , we must do none of it if the Governours forbid us , or else we overthrow all Governments , speak it out , and prove it ; but Christians will abhor it . And yet this same man calleth the Martyrs Saints , when his argument makes them rebels . W. Iohnson would not have talkt at this rate . § . 51. And I would fain know , whether he that first saith , that it subverteth all Government , and after nameth [ supreme Church-Government ] do really mean it of all , or of Church-Government only ? 1. If of all , the man is no Papist , I will gratifie him to proclaim it ; for he is no Christian. He that thinks that men must not plead Gods Authority for doing any thing different from the wills of Turkish , Iewish , or Heathen Governours , surely is no Christian : No , nor if he had confined this power to Christian Governours . 2. But if he mean it only of Church-Governours , how come they to have so absolute a power more than Civil Magistrates ? May we plead Gods Authority against a King , and not against the Prelates ? What proof was ever given of this ? Then the Prelates is far above the Kings : Then the Prelate is an absolute Governour of the King himself . Let Kings and Parliaments but understand these men , and we fear not their deceits . Are they willing to give over all worship of God , and confessing Christ , and all duties of Religion , Justice , or Charity , if the Supreme Clergy will but forbid them ? See I beseech you , worthy Country-men , what sort of men and Doctrine you have to do with . § . 52. And why doth the man talk only against different practice ? Doth he not know , that Government commandeth duty , as well as forbiddeth the contrary ? Is not Omission against Government as well as Commission ? If the King command Taxes , Military service , &c. may we disobey , and call it Passive obedience ? What if the Bishops only forbid us to confess Christ , to come to Church , to Pray , to give Alms , to do any good ? May we forbear , sobeit we do not the contrary ? Doubtless if Gods Word and Authority may not be pleaded for any duty which God commandeth , and the Prelates forbid , neither may it be pleaded for the Omission of any Villany commanded by Prelates ( no , not Inquisition , Torments , or Massacres ) , which God forbids . But this man hath the Gramatical skill to call Omissive obedience by the name of Passive . § . 53. It 's like he will next say , that I make odious suppositions , That the supreme Church-power may command any Villanies , and forbid Christian duties . Ans. 1. I despair of getting any of these designers to tell me , which is the Supreme Universal Church-power , so as to be well understood . I never heard of any pretenders but Pope , and General Councils , and as Bishop Guning holds , the Colledg of all the Bishops in the world . And certainly Pope and Councils have set up Heresies , and decreed even the exterminating of all that will not dis-believe all their senses , and deny Bread to be Bread , and Wine to be Wine . They have decreed deposing Kings , absolving Subjects from their Allegiance , adoring Images , &c. And what is it that yet they may not do ? If they say with Peter , If all men deny thee , I will not ; how shall I know that they say true ? Doth not the Church of England tell us , that Councils have erred , & c ? § . 54. And be not these very honest Sons of the Church of England , that affirm it irreconcilable to Government , to alledg Divine Authority of any different practices , without exception , and at the same time to Subscribe to Art. 21.19.6.18 . of the sufficiency of Scripture . That the Churches of Jerusalem , Alexandria , Antioch , Rome , have erred in matters of Faith ; That the Church may not Ordain any thing contrary to Gods Written Word : That General Councils may err , and have erred ; and that things Ordained by them , as necessary to salvation , have neither strength , nor Authority , unless it may be declared , that they are taken out of the holy Scripture : And those are accursed that presume to say , that every man may be saved by the Law , or Sect which he professeth . And why not , if he must do all that the Governours require , or nothing divers to them ? § . 55. My Reason forbids me to trace such a Writer as this any further . To tell men of every vain Harangue , and confident discourse , that 's full of gross error , or false report , is work unworthy of time and labour ; but I will a little more open the Coar of his deceit . CHAP. V. Wherein Mr. Dodwell's deceits , and the danger of them do consist . § . 1. AS to his Method of disputing , that you may detect his fallacies , he hath got this absurd ptetence , p. 90. That there is but one sense of all Terms , which Causes oblige men to mean ; and that every one ought to know , who pretends to have skill in Causes . Ans. Would you have thought that ever a man should publickly use such a Cothurnus among the Learned ? What a man is obliged to mean , is one thing , and what he doth mean is another . And is there any one that knoweth what humane Language is , that knoweth not that almost all words have various significations ? Doth he not know by how good reason the Schools oblige Disputants , first to explain their Terms ? And what need there is of Definition to explain them ? He instanceth in the words Bishops , and the Church of England ; And might have added , the Catholick Church . And doth he not know that it is the species of Bishops that we differ about ? and will the general name here explain each parties sense ? When we are for one sort of Bishops , and against another ? And is it not such fraud as souls should not be abused by , to refuse wilfully to define the Episcopacy that he meaneth , and then plead that all should understand him ? And why is it not as much ignorance in him not to understand me , as in me not to understand him , when I use distinct explication , which he obstinately refuseth ? And doth not Dr. Stillingfleet's case shame what he saith of the Church of England , who was hardly brought to explain it , and at last denieth the very being of the Church in Mr. Dodwell's sense ? which of you was to blame to meddle with the Word till you had skill in Causes , to understand it without a Definition ? And doth not Dr. Stillingfleet take it as the Introduction of Popery , to hold a Constitutive Regent Church-Government , National , or Catholick ? and so he , and Mr. Dodwell mean not the same thing by the Church Catholick ( nor Bishop Guning , Mr. Thorndike , or the Church of Rome , who are all for an Universal humane Supreme power ) . And who is he that hath read Dr. Challoners Credo Eccles. Cathol . Chillingworth , Bishop Mortons Grand Imposture , Bishop Bilson , Dr. White , Dr. Whitaker , Dr. Sutliffe , Bishop Andrews , Bishop Carlton , &c. Chamier , Sadeel , Melancthon , Bucer , &c. who knoweth not that the Papists and Prorestants , by the name of the Catholick Church , do mean several things , and that we deny the very being of any such Church as they call the Catholick ? And is this the bold and happy Disputant , that will save the Schools and World the labour of explaining Terms , and foreagreeing of the sense , and put men on disputing , where the Subj●ct is denied , and fill a Book with tedious confident Harangues , and then hide all the fraud by saying , that there is but one sense of all Terms , which Causes oblige m●n to mean ; and that every one ought to know , who pretend to have skill in Causes ? When the Cause disputed is only managed by words , as they signifie the minds of the Speakers about the real matters ▪ § 2. And as to the material fundamental difference between Mr. Dodwell's party and us , it lyeth in these following things : I. We totally differ about the nature of Gods Government of man. II. And about the use of the Holy Scripture , and Gods Laws . III. About the nature and extent of all humane Government . IV. About the form of moral good and evil . V. About the essential form of the Catholick Church . VI. About Gods ordinary means of saving Grace . VII . About the use of Preaching . VIII . About the duty of worshipping God in Sacred Assemblies , or the Communion of Saints . IX . About the difference of Apostles , and the office of the Bishops . X. About the office of a Presbyter or Parish-Pastor . XI . About the Necessaries to Ministry , Churches , Christianity , and ordinary title to Salvation . XII . And about the final Judgment . If all these be little tollerable differences , why may not we be tollerated ? If not , judg Reader who they be that are intollerable , when you hear them plead against tolleration . § . 3. I. For the first , we judg that there is a God , who is the Governour of the World by an universal Law , which is above all humane Laws or will , and that he is the fountain of all power , and there is none but what he giveth and limiteth , and that no man is above him , nor hath true authority against his Laws . But Mr. Dodwell saith , That it is irreconcileable to Government in this life , or to due subordination of subjects to superiours , to practice differently , and defend it by pretending Divine authority , and appealing to writings , ( Scriptures is our word by excellency so called ) . And so God shall be God , and be obeyed , if the Clergy please . § . 4. II. As to the second , we suppose that the Holy Scriptures are Gods Laws , indited and recorded by the Holy Ghost to be the first obliging Rule of Faith , and holy living , which all men are to be obedient to , before and against all contrary Laws of men . But Mr. Dodwell as aforesaid , alloweth no such prime obligation as will warrant an appeal to the Word of God , from the visible Church-Governours that contradict it . § . 5. III. And for the third , we suppose that all humane Powers are derived from God , and have no authority but what he giveth them , and are more under him and his Laws , than the Justices are under the King and his Laws , and can oblige no man against the Laws of God. But how far Mr. Dodwell thinks otherwise , you have heard . He saith not indeed that we must break Gods Laws , but we must not pretend them , or appeal to them against our Governours . In charity I hope he meaneth no worse , but that we must take our Rulers word or exposition , and judg nothing to be in the Scripture , contrary to their commands . And whether he give them the same dominion also over the Law of Nature , let him tell you . Paul disclaimed dominion over mens saith , and the written Law of God. § . 6. IV. And for the fourth , We take moral good to be a conformity to Gods Law ▪ and moral evil or sin to be a breach of it . But Mr. Dodwell is for measuring them by the Clergies or Governours will , though Gods Law be against theirs . § . 7. V. And for the fifth , we take the Catholick Church to have no Supreme Government but God , and our Glorified Redeemer God and man ; and that there is no such thing as a Catholick-Church of Gods making under any other Supreme Rulers . But that as God is the invisible King of this visible world , and Kings are subordinate Supremes in their Kingdom , but neither one of them , or many conjunct in an Aristocracy , Supreme over all the earth ; so Christ is the partly visible , and partly invisible supreme Ruler of the visible Church of Christians , and each Pastor is under him over his proper flock ( bound to keep concord and peace ) ; but none under him Supreme over all , whether Monarch ( as the Pope ) or Aristocracy , as Councils , Cardinals , or ' others . But Mr. Dodwell is for a visible Society , with a visible humane Supreme . But who the Supreme is , I despair of getting him to acquaint us . § . 8. VI. And for the sixth , we suppose that God sent forth Preachers to convert the world , and turn them from darkness to light , and the power of Satan to God , and that faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word preached , and that whoever believeth shall be saved ; and the word of God is powerful to this end , and sufficient to make us wise to salvation . But Mr. Dodwell thinks that it is not Preaching , but the delivering men the Sacraments , that giveth them the first true saving grace and title to Salvation . And that none in the world have this Sacrament or Covenant-title to life , but those that receive it from a hand that had an Ordination by Bishops in his sense , of uninterrupted succession from the Apostles by the like Ordination . § . 8. VII . Accordingly we hold that Preaching is for the converting of souls , and the means of saving faith and holiness . But what he thinks it is good for , I know not well ; nor whether he would send the Indians the Sacraments instead of Preachers . § . 10. VIII . We take it to be our duty , though men forbid us , to confess Christ , and assemble for Gods worship , to read and hear the Scripture , and to praise God : But he thinks we must not practice differently from the ruling Clergies will , if they forbid us , nor alledg Divine authority for it . § . 11. IX . We suppose that the office of a Prophetical Ministry bringing new Doctrines or Laws from God , and the office of the Teachers and Rulers by these Laws , are greatly different , and must necessarily be distinguished . Moses was a Prophetical Mediator in Legislation , and he confirm●d his Mediation by uncontrouled Miracles . The Prophets afterward came but on particular applicatory messages . But the Priests and Levites as such were no Prophets , nor had power to make any new additions or alterations of the Law , but only to teach it the people , and as guides apply it to their several cases ; so Christ and his Apostles commissioned to deliver and record all his Doctrines and Commands to the following ages , did by the Holy Ghost Prophetically deliver to the world that body of Doctrine and Law , which must rule them to the end , and judg them ; and thus sealed and confirmed all by a multitude of uncontrouled Miracles ; but all following Bishops and Pastors are not to do the like , nor add or alter , nor are such Legislators , being not Prophets nor workers of Miracles , but only to teach and apply the Laws already recorded in Scripture , and guide their Congregations in variable circumstances ( time , place , translations , &c. ) according to the general rules of Gods Law. This is the truth . But how much Mr. Dodwell equals the Bishops and Apostles , and sets their words above the Scripture as to obligation , you have seen before . § . 12. X. And as he giveth Bishops power to silence Presbyters , and forbid the Preaching of the Gospel , and Gods worship , so how little knowledg or godliness , or common sobriety or honesty , he requireth to a saving Sacramenting Priest , who must not be separated from , you heard before , contrary to Cyprian , and many a Councils Canons . But we know that Paul had no power to destruction , but only to edification . And they have no more . § . 13. XI . We suppose that we must love , honour , and communicate with all such as true Ministers or Churches , who have true faith and repentance , and sincere obedience to Christs Laws , and are able , godly , willing Pastors , chosen or consented to by the flocks , approved and ordained by senior Pastors , ( especially in Synods where City-Pastors preside ) , and especially if also authorized by the Christian Magistrate . ) But he thinks if they have not also successiv● Ordination from the Apostles by Bishops of his species , they are no Ministers , or Churches , and have no Sacrament , and Covenant title to Salvation , but are Schismaticks , and by their Ministry sin against the Holy Ghost . And so destroyeth all certainty of title to Salvation , and of Church-communion , Ministry and Sacraments , to all the Christian World. § . 14 XII . Lastly , we think that men shall be judged by their keeping or breaking Gods Law , and according to what they did in the body . But he would have us obey the Supreme Clergy , and not plead Scripture or Divine authority for our different practice ; because the Government that lasteth but for this life , ought not to admit of disputes more lasting than its practice . § . 15. I conclude with a request to him to resolve me these doubts . 1. Whether Prophets having immediate messages from Heaven , were not differenced from the teaching Priests and Pastors . 2. Whether false Prophets were not grievously threatened among the Iews ; and whether Christ did not command us to beware of false Prophets ? 3. Whether he be not a false Prophet ( worse than a false teacher ) that falsely pretendeth to that which is proper to a Prophet ? 4. Whether it be not proper to a Prophet to deliver as immediately from God , new Laws to the universal Church , yea or to any Church , which are not in the Scripture , nor are revealed by it as Gods means , ( besides the determination of circumstances left to humane prudence variable pro re nata ) if Moses and the Apostles in Legislation acted as Prophets , do not they so that pretend to do the like ? 5. Whether the General Councils of Bishops and the Pope have not done the work proper to the Prophetical office , when they have made Laws for the unversal Church , and this as by Divine authority , and undertaken to give all the Church the sense of Scripture , which only shall be obligatory to them thereby ? For it is the maker of the sense that is the maker of the Law ; especially when they pretend to Infallibility , or to be secured from erring in faith , by Divine inspiration , how ignorant or bad soever they be singly . Is not this pretended authority and inspiration that of Prophets , as different from meer Teachers and Guides by Gods Law already made ? 6. If it be so , how many such Papal Councils , arrogating such power , have been false Prophets ? 7. But if they pretend not Inspiration , nor Prophetical authority from God , nor yet authority given them by the Scriptures , or Laws of God already made , ( or falsly pretend such ) then is not this to usurp Christs own authority , and so instead of being false Prophets , to be partly Vice-Christs , ( or Law-givers to his universal Church ) called commonly Antichrists ? I would willingly have things so cleared , that men may be freed from all such suspicions . But if you are still confident that the universal Church hath a visible supreme Government besides Christs , I should be glad , 1. To see it proved . 2. To know whose it is , and how we may know them . 3. And to know its true extent . If you intend no fraud , you cannot refuse me this , when I promise you , if performed , I will let fall the suit , and no more trouble you with lesser Controversies . I have no Copy of my first Letter to Mr. Dodwell upon a Book which he sent me . This is his Answer . Reverend and Worthy Sir , I Have received your very kind Letter , wherein I hardly know whether I should be more thankful for your approbation or your reproof , both of them being in their kind so useful , and both of them being by you performed with so great civility . I am confident that if our modern disputes had been moderated with that candor , men would certainly have been more peaceful , and very Orthodox , than now we find them . I could very heartily have wished that the opinions wherein we differ , had not been of that nature as to s●parate Communion , ( for this I look upon as the only circumstance that can make such differences grievous to a pious person ; for as for those others which exasperate many that Dissenters are not so wise to discern the truth , or so fortunate in avoiding prejudices , or lighting on faithful informations , in a time when they are cap●ble of receiving them ; or that they are not so submissive as themselves expect to that Pope which Luther has long since observed in every mans ●eart , &c. are reasons either sinful , or at least insufficient to excuse the sin of uncharitableness upon such an account ) but as they a●e , considering them as tempered with that piety and moderation which may expiate their other malignities , that they are rather alledged as Apologies for your selves , than as obligations on others , rather to excuse your deformity in assisting at our Altars , than erecting others in opposition to them ; that you are still i●quisitive and desirous of further information , and ready to lay down your mistakes where you are convinced that they are such ; that still you preserve a p●aceable mind , and embrace our Communion it s●lf in voto , though perhaps not actually ; these are so valuable considerations , even before God as well as man , for excusing from the guilt of error , as that whatever I may think of your op●nions , I hope it shall not hinder me from a cordial respect and veneration for your person . As I do very much esteem the good opinion of so great a lover of p●●ce and piety as your self , and should have been sorry to have given any ju●t occasion of offence to you ▪ so I am not a little glad that upon a review of the particulars mentioned in your Letter , I find my self so very innocent . For as for my Preface , the main parts of it wherein the disrepect of the Clergy is shewn to have been an Introductory to the Atheism of the age we live in ; and that the Conformable Clergy , that is , such as would answer the design of the Church not only as to their exterior demeanor in publick solemn Assemblies , but also as to the qualifications of their persons , and the conduct of their whole lives , could not prove either trifling in their Preaching or scandalous in their examples , and therefore that the Church is not responsible for their misdemeanors where they prove otherwise ; and that the Laity are in their proportion obliged to the same duties with the Clergy , and therefore may make use of the advices there prescribed ; or where the errors of our modern School-Divinity are touched , and some Proposals made for their reformation ; in these things , I say , I can see no occasion of offence , but rather some preservatives against it . The only thing I suppose you aim at , is my taxing some opinions of Nonconformists , and that with as little personal reflection as I was able , which I conceived prejudicial to Church-authority ; which because you seem to disown , I do not see why you should apprehend your self as particularly concerned , especially there being nothing in the discourse whereby you could conclude either your self or any of your moderate temper to have been intended . I will assure you I intended none but such as were guilty , and with being so , I charged none particularly . But that not only the old Puritans and Separatists of Queen Elizabeths times , &c. but also very many of ours now are guilty of them , is too notorious to suppose you ignorant of it . I could heartily wish that the number of better principled and more peaceable dissenters were greater than I fear it is . Nor do I see that what is there said can make it unuseful even to the persons truly concerned , that value truth more than any , however beloved party ; seeing it may either let them see the ill consequence of their Principles , and their influence on that Athei●m and Prophaneness which I am confident themselves do most cordially detest , which I conceive to be more likely to prevail with them than other arguments , as being more suited to their pious disp●sitions ; or supposing that my fears were indeed groundless of the introduction of prophaneness by the contempt of Government , or of contempt of Government by their disobedience to it , yet might it at least warn them from confining on such dangerous consequ●nces , or from coming to them unawares by an abuse of Principles generally true , but obnoxious to particular inconveniences when unwarily managed . I mean it may put them in mind of the greater momentousness of good Government and peace than many of their differences , and consequently of the great engagements incumbent on them for their preservation ; and that they would therefore so take care to oppose the particular abusive Constitutions of Government , as not to bring their Government into contempt , nor to sugg●st unanswerable Apologies to factious persons for the future , when they are unwilling to be obedient . These are abuses which I believe your self would wish redressed in the Causers of our Church-divisions . But if it could not be useful to them , yet could it not be prejudicial to them , nothing being urged , either invidiously , or imperiously , and therefore no harm being done if I should prove utterly mistaken . That you should marvel how Reviving Discipline could by me be expected from the constitution of our present Ecclesiastical Government , does seem no less marvellous to me , especially as to the exception you make against it ; for if it were impossible to maintain Discipline under a Government so far Monarchical , as to appropriate the Decretory power of the Government of many to a single person , though the execution be intrusted to many ; then it would follow , that the secular Discipline under a secular Monarch of any extent , were impossible also to be observed , seeing it is as impossible for any such Prince to have a particular cognizance of every particular Cause , much more of every particular person in his Dominions , as for a Bishop in his Diocess . As there it appears by experience ( I shall instance in a Scripture-example , because I know that will be liable to least exception ) , that David in an extent more vast , and a people more numerous th●n that of the largest Diocesses , 120. Miles in length , and 60 ▪ Miles in bre●dth , and rather better in David's days , where were accounted 1300000 men sit for War , besides Artificers , and such others , not coming under that account , was yet able to give a go●d account of his Government , without particular inspection into all Causes , or Communication of his pow●r to numerous co-ordinate Presbyteries ; so I do not see , why it may not as well hold for a possibility of Discipline , under an Ecclesiastical Monarch of a much narrower extent ; for the reason produced by you , seems to proceed from the nature of Government in general , and therefore must proceed with the same force in seculars as Ecclesiasticals , there being no ingredient peculiarly rela●ing to Religion , much less to Christianity ▪ which might alter the case , or argue a disparity ; for certainly Princes , as well as Bishops , are responsible for the miscarriage of their particular ●ubjects ; for they may be prevented by moral diligence , and yet you will not thence conclude that every particular must come under his immediate personal care and cognizance ; nor is it proved , that the Bishop is otherwise obliged to such a care upon pe●uliar respects Besides , that it is plainly against experience , even in Ecclesistasticals ; for as it has fallen out in some places , where there were many Cities , the Bishops were propor●ionally multiplied , as in Affrica and Ireland ; so that it was not upon account of the impossibility of managing the charge of much greater multitudes than the Inhabitants of those small Cities , appears , in that even in the very same places the greatness of no City was thought sufficient for multiplying the Bishops , though it was for the Inferior Clergy . I need not tell you how great Rome was ▪ and how full of Christians , even in Decius's time , under Cornelius , which required the united endeavours of above a Thousand Clergies , as appears from the said Cornelius's Epistle to Fabius , of Antioch , in Euseb. yet was one Bishop thought sufficient for all ; nay , the erecting another in the same See , was thought to be formal Schism , as appears from the controversies of those Ages , betwixt Cornelius , and Novatian , and St. Cyprian , and Felicissimus The same also might have been shewn in several other Cities , exceeding numerous , and abounding with Christians , as Antioch , and Alexandria , and Carthage ▪ &c. which even in those early Ages , when Discipline was at the greatest Rigour , were yet Governed by single Bishops : Nay ▪ whole Nations were sometimes Governed only by one , as the Got●s by Vlpilas , and the Indians by Aedesius , and the Arabians by Moses , which is an Argument insisted on by some Presbyterians , for shewing the probability of Ordinations by bare Presby●●rs . Y●t are there no complaints of dissolution of Discipline in such places , upon account of the greatness of their charge , which to me seem sufficient convictions , that the multitude of persons governed , is not the reason of our present neglects in that particular . When I said , that Ignatius's Epistles were questioned by the Presbyterians , I never said , nor intended it concerning all ( for I knew of Vedelius's Apology for them ) , much less did I lay it particularly to your charge : so that if you had here forborn assuming to your self what was spoken of others , many of whose Opinions I am confident you will not undertake to justifie , there had been no occasion of this exception . That other Presbyterians , and those by far the greatest number , have denied them , cannot be questioned . As for the Reasons for Nonconformity alledged by you , and your Brethren , of the Savoy Conference in 1660. if I might without offence , presume to interpose my own thoughts , they are as followeth : 1. For the approving , not only submitting to such things as you disliked , and that by an Oath , I am sure there are many Conformists themselves , that understand no more to have been intended by the Church , but only an Exterior submission , not an Internal Approbation of the Particulars . And particularly , I have been in●ormed by a Letter from a very worthy credible person , who pretends to have had it from the Bishop himself , that Bishop Sanderson , who was a Member of your Conference , interposed those words in the Act of Parliament , where it is required , that Ministers declare their unfeigned assent and consent to the use of all things in the Book of Common-Prayer , &c. designedly that this Objection might be prevented . The new Article of Faith , inserted in the Rubrick , I do not know , nor can I now get the Books that past betwixt you at the Conference , to find what you mean. That Lay-Chancellors were put down , and that the Bishops did more consult their Presbyteries , I could for my own part h●artily wish . But ● cannot think abuses momentous enough to warrant a Schism , and I know your self are for bearing with some things that are not so w●ll liked of , rather than that the Church of God should be divided for them . In brief , I do not understand any of the Six Particulars mentioned as the Reasons that keep you off , though indeed you disapprove them , both because you do not undertake to determine what they might be to others , but only what they are to persons of your mind ( though I confess , this may be understood as a modest declining to judg of others ) ; and because you conceive piety the most likely means to unite us , which could not be if we imposed any thing on you against your Consciences . So that the only one may be presumed to have been thought sufficient by you to this purpose , seems to have been another , which because you intimate somewhat obscurely , I do not know whether you would be willing that it should be taken notice of . But however I suppose that it self does I suppose only deprive us of your Clerical , not your Laical Communion . God give us all to discern the things that belong to peace . As for other Questions , we may patiently await our Lords leisure , who when he comes shall tell us all things ; and in the mean time preserve Charity , and be wise unto sobriety . I hope , Sir , you will excuse my freedom , and let me know whether I may in any thing be serviceable to you ; and above all things reserve a portion in your Prayers for Trin. Col. near Dublin , Decemb. 14. 1672. Your unfeigned Well-wisher , HENRY DODWELL . For the Worthy and much Honoured Mr. Henry Dodwell , at Trinity Colledg near Dublin in Ireland . Worthy Sir , I Heartily thank you for your patience with my free expressions , and for your grave and kind reply . As to the main cause of the Nonconformists , should I enter upon that which I cannot prosecute , I should greatly injure it , my self and you : I must again crave your patience with my freedom . The sins which they fear ( whether justly is the question ) are so heinous , that they dare not mention them , lest their condemners and afflicters cannot bear it ; and so many , that to open them justly , will require a great Volume , and therefore not by me to be done in a Letter . Only to what you have said , let me mind you in transitu . 1. That you mistake me if you think that I excepted against your Preface as medling with me , any otherwise than as I am one of those Nonconformists with whom I am acquainted , who are mostly of my mind . ( And I suppose you would take it for no honour to be thought to be better acquainted with the most of them in England , than I am . ) 2. That your intimations about the old Nonconformists are not to our business , seeing the name of Nonconformists maketh not , nor proveth all or many so named to be of the same mind . Nor is your mention of our Treaty or Papers of 1660 , more pertinent , it being the old Cause only that we had to do with , the new Laws of Conformity being not then existent , which have made it quite another thing . Only I assure you , if my superiours would not take it for a crime and inj●ry to do what Iustin , 〈…〉 for their mistaken Cause ) , 〈…〉 it , I would endeavour to shew another 〈…〉 , and Nonconformity , than is commonly taken 〈…〉 also to give you ( who so well understand Antiquity ) 〈…〉 evidence of our Conformity to the ancient 〈…〉 300 , and mostly for 600 years after Christ. 〈◊〉 ( ●hat I may not say nothing to you ) 〈…〉 only employ 〈◊〉 lines about your sug●●●tions concerning the possibility of tru● Disc●pline by D●●●esans as they are with us . And still you m●st pardon my 〈◊〉 of speech . I must say , that it is the c●●amity of Churches , when their Prelates and Pastors are men that never were acquainted with the flocks , but spend one half 〈◊〉 their days in Schools and Colle●ges , and the other in Noblen●●●● or Gentlemens houses , and then talk confidently of the p●or people whom they know not , and the Discipline which they ●●ver tryed . Even you whom I honour as a person of extraordinary worth , constrain me by this your Letter to think that I di●pute as about war with one that never stormed a Garison , nor fought a battel ; or as about Navigation with one that was never one month at ●ea . I. Our first question is , What the Pastoral Office is , and especially Discipline ? II Our next is , Whether it may be delegated to , or done by one that is not of Gods Institution for the doing of it . III. And then we shall soon see whether it be possible for our Diocesans to do it , or any considerable part of it ? I. If the Erastians be in the right , that none of our Discipline is necessary besides that by the Sword , ( and our Preaching ) then we may put up the Controversie on both sides . But if that be the work of Bishops now , which was so in Scripture-times , the matter will hold no long dispute . To shorten th●t work , I desire you to peruse ( its like you have done ) Dr. Hammonds Paraphrase on all the Texts that mention Bishops and Presbyters , with his Treatise of the Keys , where he will tell you , that it was the Bishops Office to be the ordinary Preacher , to Pray , to celebrate the Eucharist , to visit the Sick , to keep and distribute the alms and offerings of the Church , as Curators for the Poor , with much more work . And that every single Congregation had such a Bishop , that ever met to celebrate Gods publick Worship ; and that there was not a mee●ing of a Christian Church without such ( for the said Worship in Scripture-times ) for he saith that there is no proof that there were any other Presbyters in Scripture-times . And for Discipline , it is past doubt : 1. That as to the matter of 〈◊〉 , i● must consist of a personal watch over each member of ●he 〈◊〉 ; that every one in it that liveth in gross sin , or Infidel , or Heathenish , or Her●tical error and ignorance , be orderly admonished , first m●re privately , afterward more openly , and last●y most 〈◊〉 ; and that he be by convincing reasons and ●xhortations perswaded to repentance . That the penitent mu●t be 〈◊〉 and confirmed , the obstinately impenitent rejected , as u●meet for the Communion of the Church . And for the manner , it is agreed that it must be done with condescending tenderness , patience , plain evidence , earnest exhortations , no means left untried to reduce a sinful miserable soul. And all this with the time and patience which so great a work requireth . ( And sure if the Congregation must avoid the sinner , they should know why . ) One such person will hold the Pastor work from first to last many an hour and day . N●xt , let us think how many such as by Christs Law must be th●s dealt with , are in a Diocess . I had the most reformed people ( as to sins of commission and omission ) that ever I knew in England . Our custom being to have each family come by turns to us to be personally Catechised and instructed . I had full opportunity to know them all . Many score of them that came daily to Church , knew not the Essentials of Christianity and Baptism . When I came first to them , I suppose some thousands lived in gross ignorance , open impiety and prophaneness . And even at last some scores I fear lived in gross sin . Some were notorious drunkards , raging weekly twice or thrice in the open streets . Some quieter drunkards . Many profane Swearers . Too many railers , fighters , slanderers , &c. Three or four Apostate-Infidels . The Parishes about me were far worse . A great part of the people know not who Christ is , nor what he doth , as the Saviour of the world , nor understand one of many Articles of the Creed , or Petitions of the Lords Prayer ; much less do any thing like Christians for Children or Servants in their Families . The Diocess that I now live in , hath above 1100 Parishes , some have half as many ; some Parishes have 3000 , some 10000 People . in London some 20000 , 30000 , and the Country smaller Parishes usually about 400 , 500 , or 1000. I do warrantably conjecture that in the Diocess where I now live , there may be about 50000 souls that by Christs Law should be admonished and disciplined for gross sin . And about 80000 , or 100000 that are grosly ignorant of Christianity . It 's ten to one ( experience tells it me ) that five Conventions will scarce serve with each obstinate sinner , to bring the work to the issue of a due Excommunication or Absolution . Some parts of the Diocess that I am in , are about 120 miles from other parts . The Diocesan then that doth all this himself , ( but there is no such ) if he sit half the year , must either speak to 10000 , or 20000 persons at once , or in a few minutes , or else he must let all the rest lye and rot in their sins , till he hath done with the first . And indeed ( I have tried it ) a sober Pastoral course of conviction and discipline with each one , will take up so much time , that seven years are not enough for him to go over all this Diocess if he did as much in a month as ever I knew a Bishop do in his life , except against Godly Nonconformists , or Conscientious Dissenters . But if you consider how far every accusing Minister and Churchwarden , and every accused sinner , have to travel , some 20 , some 40 miles , &c. ) and that Witnesses also must travel as far ; and how long they must attend , and how few can bear the charge of this ; and that the old and weak sort of sinners are unable for the journey , and who shall do the Parish Ministers work the while ; and how likely it i● that of 10000 such sinners , 5000 may be dead , or the Witnesses at least , before the re●t are tried and well dispatched ; or t●e case grown old , and the same m●n drunken twent● times again , before he can be judged for the first . 〈◊〉 al●o how strange a course this is to humble , convince , and save a soul — wonderful ! — that it should with any man living be a controversie , Whether one Bishop be sufficient for all this ? And what need we more than common experience ? The work is every where undone . Lay the blame where you will , not one common gross sinner of a thousand is disciplin'd or judged as in question . That which can be done , and should be done , some one good Bishop will do But none that ever I knew did ever see the face , and speak to one of a thousand gross sinners of his Diocess , ( unless perhaps as he preached to one or few Congregations ) nor do I know any that take it for their work , ( if they could do it ) , but leave it to the Lay-Chancellor as his part . If you say that Excommunication must not be on many : I answer , 1. The Bishops trying and conviction of gross sinners is first for their Repentance , and not their Excommunication , except in case of the last obstinacy , which cannot be foreknown till tried . 2. If Christ would not have such Discipline at all , there needs no Bishop to do it . If he would , when twenty drunkards , fornicators , &c. are notoriously guilty , is it his will that one of these only be admonished , convinced , excommunicated , and all the rest let alone that are equally guilty ? Sure the Law of God doth not so distinguish , but say of all alike , If any called a brother be a fornicator , &c. And will such partiality either reform men , or honour Religion , or rather make it a scorn , and make him that is singled out , hate the partial Prosecutor . If you say it 's long of Churchwardens that accuse not men : I answer , 1. And it will be so , while the thing is unfeasable ; who will be hated to do no good ? 2. Some Churchwardens of late to some Articles have presented all the Parish without ▪ exception . And so no man heard of it any more . II. And whether the Bishop may delegate his Office , or do his work per alios , would be no controversie if Scripture were our Rule , or it were known what a Pastors office is . If he may delegate it , either to a Layman in sensu composito , or to a Clergy man : If to a Layman , than a Layman and a Clergy-man are all one . For there is nothing but the work to define the authority and obligation by , which constituteth the Office. A Bishop is one authorized and obliged to do the work of a Bishop , and so is a Layman too by this supposition . If to a Clergy-man , either to one of the same order and office with the Bishop , or of another . If of the same ( before or now made so ) datur quaesitum , then he is not the sole Bishop . If of another in sensu composito , then another Clergy man is not another ; For he that is Authorized to the same work , is of the same Office. If you say that he may not delegate the whole work , de specie , but a part ; I ask which part ? either the Essential part , or but an Integral common part . If the former ? 1 Either ●o such as God in Scripture by office authorizeth to that part , or not . If the former , then the Bishop cometh too late to that which God hath done already . And then that is no proper work of Bishops which God hath made common to another Office. If the later , than a man may make new Priestly O●fices and Orders , even to the same work that God hath ●ade Officers to do already . And then we need not say , ●that Orders are Iure Divino ] if the Bishop may make more at his pleasure ; but quo jure ; and what shall set his bounds and end ? This seemeth more ( in kind ) than the Italians at Trent would have given to the Pope over Bishops . An● if they do not themselves also that same Essential part of their Office which they give to others , they degrade themselves For the ceasing or alienation of an Essential part , changeth the specie● . But I suppose you will say 〈◊〉 is Pre●byters to whom they may delegate this work . And 〈◊〉 , either it is a wor● which God hath made part of the Presbyters Office , or not . If it be , then that Presbyter doth his ow● 〈◊〉 appointed him by God , and not another 〈…〉 not , 〈◊〉 he maketh a new Officer , who is ●either 〈…〉 . But the 〈…〉 the Office 〈◊〉 , that it may not be 〈◊〉 ( tho●gh Bishop may Ordain men to an Office of 〈…〉 the King or Church may make new Officers 〈…〉 , Clock keepers Ostiaries , &c. ) ; 〈…〉 , and obligation to personal duty , to be done 〈◊〉 person●l abi●●ty ] as is the Office of a Physician , a Judg , a School 〈…〉 , a Pilot , &c where he that Author●zeth and oblig●th another statedly to do his work , doth thereby make that other a Physician , Judg , School-Master , Pilot , &c. This is but Ordin●tio● . And if a Bishop be but one that may appoint others to do the Episcopal work , then 1. Why is not every King a Bishop , for he may appoint men to do a Bishops work ? And why is he not also a Physician , Musician , Pilot , &c. because he may do the like by them ? 2. And then the Bishop appointed by the King , is no more a Bishop indeed than one appointed by a Bishop is . But this delegation that I speak against , is a smaller sin than such men choose . To depute others to exercise Discipline , whom God appointed not de specie thereto , is but Sacriledg and Usurpation , ( by alienating it from the true office , and setting up a false one ) : But yet the thing might some how be done , if any were to do it . But the almost total deposition and destruction of the Discipline it self , and letting none do it , by pretending the sole authority of doing it , is another kind of sin . Now to your answer from the similitude of Civil Monarchs , I reply , It is no wonder if we never agree about Church-offices , if we no better agree of the general nature of them , and their work . Of which if you will please to read a sheet or two which I wrote the last year to Ludov. Molinaeus , of the difference of Magistracy , and Church-power , and also read the Lord Bacons Considerations , you will excuse me for here passing by what is there said . I. The standing of the Magistrates Office is by the Law of Nature , which therefore alloweth variety and mutations of inferior Orders , as there is cause . But the standing of the Clergy is by Supernatural Institution . Our Book of Ordination saith there are three Orders , &c. Therefore man may not alter them , or make more of that same kind . II. Kingly power requireth not ad dispositionem materiae , such Personal ability as the Pastoral-office doth . A child may be a King , and it may serve turn if he be but the head of power , and give others commission to do all the rest of the Governing work . But it is not so with a Judg , a Physician , an Orator , or a Bishop ; who is not subjectum capax of the essence of the office , without personal aptitude . III. God hath described the Bishops office in Scripture as consisting of three parts , viz. Teaching , Priestly , ( or about Worship and Sacraments ) and ruling ; as under Christs Prophetical , Priestly and Kingly Office. And he hath no where made one more proper to a Bishop than another ; nor said this is Essential , and that is but Integral . Therefore the Bishop may as well allow a Layman to administer the Sacraments , &c. as one not appointed to it by God , to Rule by the Keys . IV. The Bishops Pastoral Rule is only by Gods word upon the Conscience ( as Bishop Bilson of Obed. sheweth at large , and all Protestants agree ) , and not by any mulcts or corporal force . If he use the sword , or constraint , it is not as a Bishop , but as a Magistrate . But the Kings is by the sword . And will it follow that because the King may appoint another to apprehend men , and carry them to prison , &c. that therefore a Bishop appointed by God to Preach , Worship and Rule , and therein to draw the Impenitent to Repentance by patient exhortations , and reproofs , &c. may commit this to another , never appointed to it of God ? V. Either it is the Bishops work ( as was said ) that is delegated by him , or some other . If properly his own , than either he maketh more Bishops , ( and that 's all we plead for ) , or else a Presbyter or Layman may do a Bishops proper work . And then what need of a Bishop ( to pass by the contradiction . ) VI. But my chief answer to you is , the King as Supreme Magistrate doth appoint and rule by others that are truly Magistrates : They have every one a Judicial power in their several places under him , even every Justice of Peace . But you suppose the Bishop to set up no Bishops , nor no Church-Governours under him at all . A King can rule a Kingdom by Supremo Judgment , when he hath hundreds of Judges under him who do it by his authority . And if this had been all our dispute , whether a Patriarch or Archbishop can rule a thousand Churches by a thousand Inferior Bishops , or Church-rulers , you had said something ? But doth it follow that your Church Monarch can over-see them all himself without any sub-oversees , or rule them ( by Gods word on the Conscience ) without any sub-rulers ? You appropriate the Decretory Power to your Monarch ; and communicate only the executive . Hold to that . The whole Government is but Legislatio & Iudicium ; Legislation now we meddle not with , ( yet our Bishops allow it to the Presbyters in Convocation , for they take Canons to be Church-Laws . ) It is a lower power that is denied to them , that they grant the higher to . Bare execution is no Government . A Hangman is no Governour . A Governour may also be Executioner , but a meer Executioner is no Governour . The People are Executioners of Excommunications , while they withdraw from the Excommunicate , and with such do not eat , &c. as 1 Cor. 5. And the Parish-Priest is an Executioner , while he ( as a Cryer ) proclaimeth or readeth the Chancellors Excommunication in the Church , and when he denieth the Sacrament to those that he is bid deny it to . I grant you that this is Communicated . But it is the Judicial power it self which I have been proving the Bishop uncapable of . Exploration is part of the Judicial work . I know you include not that in execution ( which follows it ) If you did , it would be a sad office for a Bishop to sentence all men , upon other mens trial and word . As if the Bishop must Excommunicate all that some body else saith he must Excommunicate . This turneth Decreeing into a Hangman-like Execution . And the nature of the cause forbiddeth it . No man is to be Excommunicate for any other crime as such , but for Impenitence in some crime ; nor to be absolved after , but upon Repentance . Now if it were , but whether a man de facto have been drunk , or fornicated , or perjured , &c. it were hard judging sententially meerly on trust from others ; but yet perhaps that might sometimes be done : But when the case is , Whether the man be penitent , Personal trial is necessary to a Rational and Ecclesiastical administration of the sentence . I conclude therefore , that as a King can judg by many hundred Judges , and a General command an Army by many hundred Commanders , but not without any one by himself alone , having Executioners under him . So is it here . VII . And I pray you note one other difference : In the Kingdom it is not one subject of an hundred , or many hundreds , that hath Law suits with others once in a year , or seven years , or his life . Nor one of some hundreds ( where I have lived ) that findeth the Magistrate work as Criminal . And in this we differ even from the Physician , who in a City hath not one of many that is sick , but we are all of a sinning corrupt disposition , and the Pastor hath few of his flock that need not some personal applications in one degree or other . And even as to gross sins lived in , and ignorance or heresie against the very essence of Christianity , it is a good Parish where a considerable part of it are not guilty ; so that it is easier for one Justice of Peace to send two or three thieves in a year to a Gaol , and bind two or three to the good behaviour , than for one Bishop to admonish , exhort , convince and judg 10000 impenitent sinners in a little time , and hear all the Witnesses , &c. If you should have said , that the Parish Priest is to reprove , exhort , convince them first , till he prove them impenitent , and he is to instruct the ignorant , Infidels and Hereticks : I answer , 1. That is more than an executive power . 2. We desire no more at all from Bishop● or any , and know no other Episcopal power over the people , but thus personally to convince men , and declare to the Congregation upon proof , the fitness or unfitnss of men for their Communion , by penitence ▪ or impenitence . But this is it that the Ministers are hindred from , or denied . They have no power to speak with any one ignorant , Heretical , Infidel , or scandalous sinner in the Parish , but such as are willing . And few of the guilty are willing . They will neither come to the Minister , nor suffer him to come to them , but shut their doors on him if they know that he cometh on such a work , or else they will not be within . Or if they be , will tell him , that they will not answer him . When I came first to Kederminster , the rabble multitude curst me in the streets , and rose up against me , but for saying , That Infants Originally have that sin and misery which needs a Saviour ; yet such ( if they scorn to speak with us ) must be our Communicants for want of Pastoral power . There is no Law or penalty that I ever knew of , to constrain any to come to us , receive us , hear us , or answer us , if we had never so much cause to question them of , or fortifie them against infidelity , heresie , ignorance , or wicked lives . And if any other accuse them to us ( as few will ) we must not judg them without trial . It may be you will say . Would you have them constrained by force to speak with the Pastor , or give him any account of their faith , life , or knowledg , besides coming with others into the Church ? I answer , No , we would have no force , as we have none . But then we would not be forced our selves by the Church-Lords and Monarchs to take our selves for the Pastors of such as refuse our Pastoral office , and to give the Sacrament , and all priviledges of Church-Communion , to every one in the Parish , who upon just suspicion of gross scandal , heresie , infidelity or ignorance , obstinately refuseth to speak to us , and give us any account , or to be tried . I that have yearly tried my Parish by Personal Conference , know that thousands and thousands among us know not ( and therefore believe not ) whether Christ be God or man , or Angel , or what ; nor who the Holy Ghost is , or why Christ died , rose ; nor scarce any supernaturally revealed article of the Christian faith . And that many that understand them , believe them not . And I desire no Church-power , but not to take those , 1. For Christians ; 2. And for my especial Christian flock , 1. Who are no Christians ; 2. Who themselves refuse it . Without their consent the Minister is forced on them . They a●e forced by the sword to say that they are Christians , and to come to Church and Communicate . The old Christian Profession was , I will be a Christian , and hold Communion with the Church , though I go to prison or death for it . The Prelatical Christian Profession is , I will rather be a Christian and Communicate , than I will lye in Gaol , and have all my Estate confiscate . Seeing then that we have not the due power of a Pastor to deny our Office-administrations in Sacraments to those that refuse us in the other parts aforesaid , we are utterly disabled from so much as preparing men for the Bishops , or Chancellors Examination . 3. But if it were otherwise , that must not satisfie the Church-Monarch , who must judg himself , and therefore must hear by himself . But you tell me , It is plainly against experience in Ecclesiasticks . Ans. It 's hard then to know any thing . For I dispute all this while , as if the question were , Whether men in England speak English. And if I herein err , I am uncurable , and therefore I allow you to despair of me . You say , The greatness of no City was thought sufficient to multiply Bishops . Ans. 1. Gods Institution was , that every Church have a Bishop , Act. 14.23 , &c. 2. A particular Church then was , A Society of Neighbour-Christians , combined for Personal Communion in Gods Worship , and holy living , consisting of Pastor and flock . 3. For 250 years I think , you cannot prove that any one Bishop in the world , save at Alexandria and Romr , had more such Congregations and Altars than one ; nor these for a long time after the Apostles ; nor in many Churches of ome hundred years longer . 4. At Antioch ( the third Patriarchate ) Ignatius professeth that every Church had one Altar , and one Bishop with his Presbyters and Deacons , fellow-servants . And that in this one Church the Bishop must enquire of all by name , even Servant-men and Maids , and see that they absented not themselves from the Church . Why is not Ignatius confuted if he erred ? Vid. Mede on the Point . 5. Alexandria and Rome by not multiplying Bishops as Churches or Converts needed it , began the grand sin and calamity which hath undone us , and therefore are not to be our Pattern . Orbis major est urbe . 6. Were Bishops necessarily to be distributed by Cities , the Empires that have few , or no Cities , must have few , or no Bishops ; and an Emperor might , aliud ag●ndo , depose all the Bishops by dis franchizing the Cities . 7. But every Corporation , oppidum , like our Market-Towns , was then truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : And if you will but procure every such City with us , to have a Bishop , and the Office of such Bishops to be to drive men from sin , and not to it , and to silence Blasphemers , and not faithful Preachers of the Gospel , all our controversies of Prelacy are then at an end . 8. And you must remember , that great Cities had long but few Christians , in comparison of the Heathens ( till Constantine's time , and mostly long after ) . And when Patrick with his own hand Ordained Three Hundred and Fifty Bishops in your Ireland , they were but Ecclesiarum fundatores , and with them he founded but septingentas Ecclesias , and Ordained Five Thousand Clerks , if Ioceline be true , Vit. Patri● . cap. 185. and not rather the far more credible report of Antonin . in Chr●n . tit . 11. cap. 18. § 2. and Vincent . specul . histor . lib. 20. cap. 23. who say , that Ecclesias fun●avit 365. ●rdinavit Episcopos eodem numero 365. et eo amplius in quibus spiritus Dei crat . Presbyteros autem usque ad 3●00 ▪ ordinavit A● Vsher ●●ceth them , de primord . Eccl. Br. p 9●7 . which is Ninius number there . So that here is no more Church●s th●n ●ishops ▪ and about Nine Presbyters to a Bishop . You tell me of above One thousand Clergy-men at Rome , in Cor●elius's 〈◊〉 . Ans. 1. This was above Two hundred and Fifty years after Christs Birth . 2. I never took all the impotent persons , poor , and Widows in the Church , to be Clergy-men , and Clergy-women . Cornelius his account is , that there are Six and Forty Presbyters , Seven Deacons , Seven Sub-Deacons , Two and Forty Acolytes , Two and Fifty Exorcists , and Readers , with Porters , Widows , and impotent persons , above One thousand and Fifty souls , considering , 1. How their Meetings were then obscure , and small , in Houses ( as the tolerated Churches in London ) . And in so vast a City , in how many distant places . Besides the sub-urbicarian Assemblies ▪ 4 ▪ And how many Presbyters used still to be with the Bishop in the same Assembly ? 5. And that here are in all but Seven Deacons . 6. And that many then were Presbyters that used not to Preach , but for privater over-sight , and as the Bishops Assessors . 7. And that the poorer sort most commonly received the Gospel . 8. And that none of these , but the Six and Forty Presbyters , had any power in the Discipline . 9. And that by all this reckoning , the whole Church maintained not , besides the Officers , near a thousand poor ; we may probably conjecture , that the whole Church of that Bishop was not bigger than some one London-Parish ( Stepney , Giles , Cripplegate , Martins , &c. ) where are about Fifty thousand souls . 10. And when none were Christians but persecuted Volunteers , they were the holiest , and best of men ; and I have tryed , that Six hundred such make less work for Discipline , than Ten of the Rabble that are driven into our Churches , and choose them rather than the Goal . But when all 's done , Two Cities under the power of great temptation , are not to be our Rule against Gods Word , and the state of all other Churches in the world , and undeniable experience . It 's true that you say , that to erect another Altar was counted Schism ; that is , Altare contra altare ; because when the Phrase came up , no Church had more than one Altar . Your Instances intimated of Antioch and Carthage , I believe not ; and can give you ( had I liberty ) a Volume of proof from Antiquity , that for Two hundred and Fifty years , if not much longer , Ignatius's Rule was true , that every Church had one Altar , and one Bishop , at least , except the two aforesaid . Vlphilas was but an Arrian Bishop , of a few Goths newly turned Arrians , and the first that translated the Scriptures into the Gothick Tongue ; so that no Churches among them had the Scripture , till after his translating ; and these few were presently persecuted to rhe death by Athanarichus ( ut socrat . lib. 4 cap. 32. ) You may call these few , a Kingdom , if you please . How few of the Indians were converted when Frumentius ( not Aedesius , as you say ) was made their Bishop , it 's easie to gather by the History . Scythia and Persia used to have each a Bishop , and he lived in the Roman Empire , as near them as he durst , as not being tolerated usually in their Land. And as few , it 's like , Mos●s had among the Arabians ; there being no mention in the History of any thing to perswade us , that he had many Churches under him , that I remember . And the work of these B●shops was to ordain Presbyters , who had the power of the Keys , & exceptae Ordinatione , did all that Bishops did , as Hierome saith . So that then a Diocess had not one sole Church-Governour ; and therefore where you gather that yet Discipline was not dissolved : I answer : 1. In all this you leave out a matter of chief consideration : viz. That all the Presbyters then were assistants in Discipline , and had a true Church-Government over the people , which now they have not . 2. It 's strange that we that have eyes and ears must be sent to the Indians and ancient History , to know whether one Bishop can hear , and try , and admonish so many thousands at once , as we see by experience are those Objects of Discipline which the Scripture describeth , and when we see that it is not done . And after all this , we have talk't but of a ●hantasm ; for it is not one Bishop , but one Lay man , a Chancellor , that useth this Decretory power of the Keys , over all these fouls , so far as they are used , as to the ordinary Court-tryals and exerci●e ; and the Bishop rarely medleth with it . Again , Nonconformists doubt not to prove , that the Diocesan frame , whi●h they dare not swear to , 1. Doth depose the species of Churches of Gods Institution . 2 And the Discipline it self almost totally . 3. And the species of Presbyters . 4. And the old species of Bishops . And instead of each of these , setteth up a new species of man's invention , wholly different , and inconsistent . And that they are not willing to Swear , Subscribe , or deliberately and solemnly enter into a Church-Covenant , That in their Places and Callings they will never endeavour any alteration of this , no not by a request or word , you may less wonder than if some were then loath to Swear or Covenant never to endeavour to take down the Priests of Dan and Bethel , or reform the high places . It 's dangerous making a solemn Ministerial Covenant , Never to obey God in any one great matter , and never to repent of so doing . Again , our Reasons at the Savoy were , 1. About another ma●ter : 2. Few of them received , or ever published to the world . And all that I have said to you is very little of our Cause ; which I will not touch , unless I might prosecute it . Your information about Bishop Sanderson , and the word , Vse of all things , &c. is as the rest , to conquer our sense and experience . 1. The words in the Act are most plain , and Bishop Sanderson de Iuram , concludeth , That Oaths ( and Covenants ) must be taken in the plain and proper sense . 2. It is notorious , that after the Lords in a Proviso of another Act , would have so expounded the Act of Uniformity , ( that it is meant but of consent to use , &c ) and the Commons rejected it as intolerable , and upon a meeting of both Houses satisfied the Lords by their Reasons , who acquiesced in the rejection of that Exposition . And shall we still stretch our sense against the plain words , when the Parliament long after hath rejected such an Exposition ? Sir , it is much more ( especially about Separation ) which your lines invite me to say , and the cause requireth ; but I fear I have wronged you by prolixity already ; and much more by my freedom of speech , which is from my inclination to speak of things as they are , and is truly joined with a very great respect and honour of your self , commanded by your excellent Book , and judicious peaceable stile and temper . I rest , Jan. 5. 1672. Your unworthy Fellow-servant , ( worthy to be Silenced ) , RI. BAXTER . The short Answer to Mr. Dodwell's long Letter , fully answered in my Treatise of Episcopacy . For the Worthy and much Honoured Mr. Henry Dodwell , at Trinity Colledg near Dublin in Ireland . Worthy Sir , I Thankfully received yours of 28 Pages , from the hand of Mr. Teate . That I may not be again guilty of such hastiness in writing as you take notice of , I premise this to acquaint you , That your warning , with my backwardness to such work , and the multitude of Employments in which I am pre-engaged , shall keep me a while from that error , and you from the trouble . And if I take not your concluding counsel to avoid both timerity and partiality in this Cause , I shall notoriously contradict mine own interest . I have studied the point as diligently as I could , almost thirty years longer than you have lived in the world , ( if the bearer of yours give me a true account of your age . ) And yet I truly think it very possible that one of such admirable parts and diligence as your self , ( evident in your great reading and accurate stile ) may know much more in half that time . But if I can know my own thoughts , I have studied with a desire whatever it cost me , to know the truth . I dare not say , ( Impartially ) altogether . For I have flesh and blood , and who can choose but have a little partiality for that way which all his worldly interest pleadeth for ? Could I have proved Conformity lawful ( not to have contained a Covenant against the Church-form , Church-offices , and Church-discipline of Christs Institutions , and for upholding that Church Usurpation and Tyranny which began and still continueth the Divisions of the Christian World ; nor the deliberate Ministerial owning of the Perjury of many thousands , &c. ) I need not have undergone the common scorn and hatred that I have born , nor to have been deprived of all Ministerial maintenance , and silenced for eleven years of that part of my life , which should have been most serviceable ( to add no more ) ; my Reputation with those on the other extreme , I did voluntarily cast away , by opposing them ( when I could as easily have kept it as most I know ) lest it should be any snare or tempting interest to me . I assure you , That I have not wanted bread , is a thing that I owe to thanks to any party for , either Prelatists , Presbyterians or Independents , &c. I confess I have read what the Antiprelatists say , such as Beza , Gerson , Bucer , Didoclav . Parker , Bains , Iacob Blondel , Salmasius , &c. But I have more diligently studied , since I was twenty years of age , the chiefest on the other side , Saravia , Bilson , Downham , Hooker , Burges , Covel , Bridg , Bancroft , VVhitgift , Spalatensis , and since Petavius , Hammond , and multitudes more . And I have now , as you desired , read over all yours , that I might see the end , before I past my judgment on the beginning . But our apprehensions are various , as our preconceptions are ; I find that we are all forestalled , and readiest to learn of our selves , who are not always the happiest Teachers of our selves . What we have first laid in , is usually made the standard of all that followeth ; and all must be reduced into a due Conformity and subserviency to our former sentiments . You have shewed great learning , ingenuity and piety , and in a very fluent stile expressed what was in your mind ; and made me remember what one answereth him that said , Hooker was yet unanswered , viz. Reduce what you would have answered , to Argument , and it will soon be done . I find , that it had been much better to have said nothing , than to have begun in such a manner of dispute , in which the further we go , the less we understand one another , and make each other molestation , instead of edification : For plainly I find , that ( though much may be learned out of so rare a discourse as you have vouchsafed me , yet ) it doth very little at all to any dispatch of our pres●nt controversie , but might easily deceive me by avocation , if I would forget what it is that I dispute about : For I perceive , 1. That we agree not in our sense of the terms which we make use of : And from thence you infer some great and dangerous errors in my judgment . 2. We agree least of all in common and obvious matters of fact , which are before our eyes , and the things of which I have had almost an Ages experience . 3. I find , that a very great part , if not the far greatest of all your discourse , is written upon a mis-understanding of my Words and judgment . And if one were to publish such kind of Writings , how tiresome would it be to the Reader , should I set down a particular account of all your passages that are besides the question , and all that proceed from such misunderstanding ? I speak not by way of blaming you ; for we are not competent Judges of other mens actions , till we know the Reasons of them : that may be laudable , which crosseth our desires . Perhaps you had Reasons to pass by the chief part of my explications of my sense , and of the matter of fact , and say nothing to them : And perhaps you had Reasons when I had told you our Country-distribution of Acts of Government , into Legislative , and Judicial , and Executive , to make use still of the Equivocal word Decretory , and to understand by it ( as you saw cause ) only the Legislative power , and to leave out the Iudicial , which was all that I controverted : It may be you had Reason , when I talk of a single , or Parochial Church , to say , I supposed in it but a single Pastor : You are not accountable to me for such errors , be they never so causless in my opinion . It may be you had Reason to write against the old Nonconformists that are in another world ; and to think , that for the Names sake it concerned us : and to plead , that Conformity to all the present Covenants , and Oaths , and Subscriptions , is necessary , because you could wish the Discipline more Regular , as if we were to Subscribe to what is in your wishes . It may be you had Reason to suppose the Parish-Priests to have the Government of the People , even the power of the Church-Keys ( and yet sometimes to unsay it again ) , without answering my Proof to the contrary , when I take it for the chief supposition that causeth my Nonconformity : And to prove copiously , that a Bishop may govern a Diocess when he hath a Governor under him in every Parish , without answering my Proofs , that he hath no such under him , but hath , quantum in se , half degraded the Presbyters . And when I said , that Discipline is not possible under such Diocesans as are with us , you might have Reason that I know not of , to leave out , as are with us , and to prove it possible with other Diocesans that have governing Presbyters under them . Perhaps you had Reason to confound the Convincing , Perswasive , Declarative Power of a Iudg , with that of a private man , and thence to raise the supposition which you raise . Perhaps you know some Medium between corporal force , and Mulcts , proper to the Magistrate , and Authoritative perswasion , and prevailing on the Conscience by the Reverence of Gods Laws , though I know none : And you were not bound to teach me what you know . Perhaps you had Reason to think that I may Subscribe , That no man in Three Kingdoms that hath Vowed it , is bound to endeavour to alter our Church-Government by Lay-Chancellors , because you defend it not , but wish it altered : And it may be you have Reasons unknown to me , that none but Irregular endeavours are there disclaimed , and that our Lawgivers spake universally , and would be interpreted particularly , with many such like . But abscondita & quae supra nos , nihil ad nos — What I may not pretend to understand , I will not presume to censure , but only say , That I am uncapable of being informed by them . This I am satisfied of , that my Schismatical Principles take into Church-Communion such as you , and those that are in knowledg below , not only you , but me , even the weakest true Christians But upon your Catholick terms , no man of my measure of knowledg must be tolerated to be a Preacher , or a Christian in Church-Communion , nor live at least out of Goal , or some such penalty . And if one at Muscovy can get a Courtier to make him a Bishop , he and such other are the Church ( which why you still put it in the feminine Gender when it consisteth of Masculine Court-Bishops , I know not . ) And if he command us to do that which we account the most inhumane perjury , if he think it to be but the renunciation of an unlawful Oath , as I understand you , we are Schismaticks if we obey him not . Whether in cases of commanded blasphemy , and all other crimes , we must accordingly renounce our understandings , I know not . Though there be somewhat of Irony in all this , there is nothing but what is consistent with the high estimation of your extraordinary worth . And I must say , that our different Educations , I doubt not , is a great cause of our different sentiments . Had I never been a Pastor , nor lived out of a Colledg , ( and had met with such a taking Orator ) I might have thought as you do . And had you converst with as many Country-people as I have done , and such , I think you would have thought as I do . My great deceiver is Sense and Experience . I am inclined to look near me , in judging of present matters of fact : As if our Controversie were , Whether one Schoolmaster can govern a thousand Schools without any but Monitors under him , and Teachers that have no Government . And your way is from old Histories , to prove that some body did so 1400 years ago , or a thousand , in some places of the world , if stories deceive us not ; and therefore it may be so now . Though none of those excellent men do it , who are put into the places of the silenced Schismatical Ministers , nor none of the excellent Bishops that are over us , who are so good that one of them no doubt would do it , were it possible . But seriously I take it for a great mercy of God , that honest Christians of little learning have that experience in the Practicals of Religion , which the studied accurate plausible Orations of contradictors cannot overcome , though they are not so well skill'd at the same weapons as to answer them . Sir , pardon and accept this short and thankful acknowledgment , that I have received your Learned Tractate , till I take the leisure ( if I so long live ) to return you an answer suitable to your discourse and expectations . I rest , Aug. 5. 1673. Your Servant , RICH. BAXTER . Mr. Dodwell desiring me not to make haste in answering him , I sent him only this , intending more ; but want of time , and the quality of the task , ( being put but to answer a multitude of words ) delayed it till he came to London , and then I thought we might talk it out , which we oft tried to little purpose . His great proof of large Churches , of many Altars , from the only two that swelled first , Rome and Alexandria , are so fully answered in this annexed Letter which worthy Mr. Clerkson wrote to me , that I think he needs no other answer ; since published by me : As is a f●ll discourse on the Subject , by Mr. Clerkson himself , against Dr. St●llingfleet . A Copy of the Letter to Mr. Dodwell , March 12. 1681. SIR , SInce your Speech with me , I have thought again of what you insisted on , and find it consist of these four Points : 1. Whether I charge you with Popery , or at least , do not vindicate you when so accused . 2. Your reasons against answering Voetius and me . 3. Your desire to know my terms of concord . 4. Your perswading me to give over Preaching . Lest words be mis-understood , or forgotten , I send you my Answer to each of these . I. I take it to be none of my business , to tell what Religion other men are of , till I am called to it : And then I take my self bound to judg every man what he professeth to be , till I can disprove it . 2. I distinguish the Name ( e. g. of Protestant , or Papist ) from the Thing . Accordingly , 1. I am sure you deny your self to be a Papist , and I believe you . 2. What you mean by the word , I refer all men that talk of it to your Books , which are fitter to tell your mind than I am , that know no mans heart : Grotius took a Papist to be one that flattered Popes , taking all to be just which they said and did , and not one that consented to all the General Councils . 3. You shall chuse what Name I shall call you by : If it be Protestant , far be it from me to deny it you ; But as your Book publisheth your judgment to the world , you will give me leave to tell men what is in it : And to profess my self , that I am no such Protestant , as takes the Church of Rome to be a true Church of uninterrupted succession , which gave our Bishops their Office and Power ; and that all the Reformed that have not Diocesan Bishops , are no Churches , no Ministers , have no Sacraments , no pardon of sin , or hope of salvation , by promise , and known ordinary grounds , which the Roman Church hath . Yea , that they sin against the Holy Ghost : Yea , and that this is the case of the Episcopal Protestants , that have not had an uninterrupted succession of Episcopal Ordination ; and that the French Protestants were better turn Papists , than to continue such Protestants as they are . I take all this for your judgment : But I vindicate you so far as to say , that you oft contradict your self , and so possibly may yet come off . If you should say , that neither such Protestants , nor Papists , have Sacraments , and part in the Covenant of grace , pardon , and salvation , you would leave so few for Heaven , and so many for Hell , as I will not imagine you to be guilty o● . II. As to the Second , I must tell all , that I take it but for trifling , to call us to answer the same things again , which are answered so long ago , and have no reply from Papists , or any other . And I doubt not , but you know that it is the main charge which the Papists assault the Reformed Churches with , and put their chief trust in , which you also bring against them : And we still believe , that Iansenius did it much stronglier than you ; and much more than yours , is by Vo●tius against him fully answered ; and your denial moveth us not . III. To satisfie your Third demand , I remember a small Script , which I published 1659 , or 1660 , and therewith send it you ; by which ( with what I read to you ) you may conjecture at my terms , specially if you joyn my Preface to Cathol . Theologie , I take it for granted , that it will not satisfie you . But pardon my freedom for saying that , while I perceive your Confidence ordinarily to go quite beyond your Proofs ; and while my Principles call me to love more as brethren , than yours do , and engage me not to justifie persecution of men better than my self , I shall think never the worse of them for that . IV. As to your judgment for my ceasing to Preach , I dare not obey it : I think if I say , these men forbid me , God will not take it for an excuse , after such charges as Scripture layeth down , and such promises as in Ordination I made , and such necessity of souls as I am sure of , and such encouragements as God hath given me . I fear hearing , Thou slothful servant , &c. as much as the guilt of other heinous sins : I have not lived idly ; and if I silence my self , I invite God by death to silence me , and judg me , as obeying man against him . I am past doubt , that Satan and my flesh give me the same counsel as you do . I have abundant arguments for my Preaching , which I never heard a ●ational answer of , and which such a poor Objection as , Then there will be no Order , will not confute , especially when all the Ministers of England are bound to be Nonconformists , and consequently to ●ease Preaching , if I am so bound . And why not next , all Christians to cease hearing , and praying , if so forbidden ? If it be only Christs Gospel that I Preach , I cannot but suspect the voice that saith , Give over Preaching . Accept this account of the sense of Your Friend , Rich. Baxter . To Mr. Dodwell , Nov. 15th 1680. SIR , YOurs of Oct. 16 th I received , Nov. 11 th , which intimateth the Second Edition of your Letters , which I hear not of ; your last Letter to me , signifying your purpose to publish your long Letter from Ireland to me , caused me to Print an old Treatise of Episcopacy , which I had cast by , and now send you as an answer to that Letter . I thank you for your admonition , and desire of my repentance : It shall make me , if I can , search yet more diligently ; but I find no probability of being able ; the like lamentations of my sin , and wrong to the Church , I have long had from Papists , Antinomians , Anabaptists , and Separatists , and some Quakers , and Seekers ; and I despair of satisfying them ; nor can I be of all their minds : and I find here but one Argument to draw me to yours , ( viz ) my taking the Oath of Canonical obedience . And 1. You know not that I took it : Many Ordained men did not . To tell you the truth , I entered so rawly , that though I well remember my Subscription , I remember not that I took that Oath : I remember I took it not for my Ordination , but at the same time taking a License for a School , some Oath the Register suddenly thrust on me , and I remember not what it was ( which was , and is my sin ) . 2. If I took it , surely I never intended to bind my self to any but my true Ordinary . And when he is dead and the very Order for near Twenty years publickly ( though culpably ) put down , and none existent where I lived , I never saw it proved , that I am sworn to all that after are set up over others , by the King , without the Clergies , or Peoples choice , or consent , contrary to the Judgment of the Church for One thousand years , and that without , and against my own consent : And that he that sweareth obedience to his present Ordinary , is thereby sworn , though he never dream't of it to all that ever shall succeed him , what changes soever be made , and though judging them Usurpers , I renounce them . If it be said , that I virtually consent by the Convocation ; I deny it , nor did the City of London consent ; for they had not one chosen Clerk there . They chose Mr. Calamy and me , and we were both refused by the Bishop , and only the Dignitaries of the City admitted . What if I had sworn obedience in 1639. to the Presbytery in Scotland , or 1649. in England ; and after they are put down , and I find them to be an unlawful power , and they are restored again , doth my first Oath bind me to the latter stock against my consent ? 3. The English Ecclesiastical Law-Books , which I have read , do tell me , that the Chancellor , Official , Commissary , Archdeacons , and every Iudex Ordinarius is my Ordinary ( whatever you say against it ) : And some Bishops themselves have judged the Lay-Chancellors Judgment , by the use of the Keys , to be a great sin . Quest. Whether then an ignorant Oath to obey such Usurpers , repented of , do bind to obey them still ? What if in France I had sworn obedience to their Bishops , and after see that it was an unlawful Oath , quod materiam , am I bound by it till death ? 4. I swore to obey them but in licitis & honestis . And I do not know that ever I therein disobeyed those that I sware to ; no , nor the latter reduced stock : Either I have proved the degenerate sort , described in this Treatise , to be a heinously sinful depravation of the Church , and its Government , and an injury against Christ , by deposing his Church Form , Discipline , and Officers , or not : if not , evince it , and I will thank you ; if yea , to comply with such sin , or in any calling to forbear detecting it by writing , is an Omission which is not licitum vel honestum . An unlawful Oath against a thing indifferent , will not bind me , if the King do but command that indifferent thing ; much less will an ignorant Oath to obey Church-Usurpers , and corrupters , oblige me against Christs commands . Nor do I think it licitum vel honestum , to renounce my Ministry , sacrilegiously , and perfidiously break my Ordination-Vow to God , and forbear Preaching Christs Gospel to needy souls , because they forbid me . In a word , Sir , I unfeignedly thank you for your desire to save me from dying in sin . I have great reason to make it my greatest care . Constant pain and languor , call to me , neither to dissemble , nor delay : When I cannot know my own heart so well as you do , I may come to believe you , that it is unruly Pride . Till then I am past doubt , that could any abasement , any labour , any cost , help me to know that you are in the right , and I in the wrong , I would most joyfully undertake it : But such warnings as your's awaken my Conscience , so that I dare not die in the guilt of active , or omissive compliance with those men , 1. Whose degenerate state I confidently judg to be the dangerous Malady of the Church , and destructive to a right Church-state , Church-Officers and Government . 2. Whose Canons of Government are such as they are . 3. Who have since I had any understanding , done that against serious godliness in England which they did , and these ( near ) Twenty years , done what they have done , procuring the silencing , and outward ruin of about Two thousand such Ministers of Christ , as I know to have been the most pious , faithful , and successful in true Ministerial work , of any that ever I could know ; and such as I am fully perswaded no Nation under Heaven have Two thousand better . And yours , or other mens accusations , or contrary judgment , cannot make me ignorant of this , which experience , and great acquaintance have told me . 4. And Church-History , which tells me what such have done in former Ages , increase my fear of dying in the guilt of participating of their sin . I know of no other Motives that I have . The sum of my request to you is ; That instead of telling me what the Pope , or any Usurper may say , that I should be humble and obedient , you will but tell me what means I should use , which I have omitted , to get my judgment informed , if I err , and to become of your mind , and as wise as you . I again intreat you to tell me the way , and I shall give you most hearty thanks . Did I not know your judgment and mine to be so distant , as puts me out of hope of attaining my end , I would have sent you Nine or Ten Proposals , for the meer reducing of the Parish Churches to their necessary state , without altering any thing of the Diocesans power or grandure , save only their power of the Sword , which yet as they are Magistrates we submit to . That your former Letters brought me not to your judgment , you may see , by the book which I send you , cometh not to pass by hasty judging , nor without that which seemeth Reason to me after my long and best consideration . I am fully assured , not byassed hereto by worldly interest , which hath long lain on the other side . Accept this Account from Nov. 15. 1680. Your unfeigned , though dissenting Friend , Ri. Baxter . July 9. 1677 ▪ For my much honoured Friend Mr. Henry Dodwell . SIR , SINCE the writing of my last to you , your own words have acquainted me , 1. That you take my Principles to have some inconsistence or contradiction . 2. That you think I have not yet told you what Church-Government it is that I would have , or how it can attain its end . 3. That you suppose that denying men the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is a coercive power sufficient to force unwilling men to obey Church-Governours . 4. That you hold that all Religious Assemblies not allowed by the Bishops , are unlawful , and therefore that we must rather use none than such . I. As to the first , no reason obligeth me to believe you till you prove it ; which must be by citing the inconsistent words . How easie is it to tell you or any man , that you speak contradictions ? Is accusing , proving ? And you have told me by experience that mistaking Hearers and Readers understand not mens words so well as the Speakers or Writers do . When you so widely mistook a speech of mine , when I had told you that as far as I could learn by my own acquaintance , and the report of the Members themselves , there was but one known Presbyterian in the House of Commons when the Wars began , ( I named you a credible witness yet living ) , and you report that I said , there was but one Presbyterian in the Assembly of Divines ? May not my writing be as much mistaken by you ? Prove your Charge , and I will confe●s my contradictions , and give you thanks . II. As to the second I was afraid I had used more words than needs ; if all that I have said tell you not what I mean , you may excuse me from adding more , which are like to be no more significant ; you must name me the particulars that you are unsatisfied in , before I can know what is needful to be added . One particular you did name , viz. whether I hold a power in the Church to deny men the Sacrament that would have it ? I left you no reason to make a doubt of it . If this be it , pardon the repetitions which you make me guilty of , and I shall renew my account . 1. I believe that Christ hath instituted the office of the Sacred Ministry ( which the Ancients called Sacerdotium ) , as subordinate to his Teaching , Ruling , and Sacerdotal office ; and that being obliged to Disciple and baptize the Nations , and to teach them Christs commands , and to guide them in holy Doctrine , Worship and Discipline , they are authorized to all that they are obliged to ; and that it is their office-work to administer Baptism and the Lords Supper , and that they have the Church-Keys to judg whom to take in by Baptism , what food to feed the children of the Church with , and whom to cast out of its Communion . 2. I believe that this power is limited and regulated by Christs own universal Laws , and that they are not lawless or arbitrary ; but he hath bound them by a just description , whom to take in , what food to give them , and whom to cast out . And that he hath given them no power to cross or violate these his Laws . And if they do it notoriously , it is null and worse , and no act of authority but of sin . e. g. If Bishops baptize unconverted Infidels , or give the other Sacrament to such , or to notorious wicked impenitent persons . 3. I believe that if one or many Bishops or Priests do disobey these Laws of Christ , their sin doth not oblige all other persons to rebel or sin with them , or disoblige them from their duty . e. g. If some Bishops should refuse to receive penitent believers and their ●eed into the Church by Baptism , others are nevertheless bound to receive them , and not all the Bishops in the world to keep them out because some do it sinfully ? so if some Bishops would feed them with un●ound Doctrine , or corrupt Gods Worship , ( e. g. with Image-worship , or language unint●lligible , &c. ) others must not follow them , but do better . And if some Bishops turn Christs sheep out of his sold and pasture unjustly , denying them Communion , others must not do wickedly with them , but must receive such ; else one tyrant might oblige all the Churches to tyranny . 4. But while the power of the Keys is lawfully used , he that is justly cast out of the Communion of one Church , should not be received to Communion with any other that hath just notice of his Exclusion , till the cause be removed . 5. But the notice of it concerneth not those that living out of reach , are uncapable of Communion with that person . If a woman in this Parish be Excommunicated as a Scold , or a man as a Drunkard , &c. the Bishop is not bound to send notice of their names and case to Ethiopia or Armenia , nor to all the Christian World ; no nor to all England . Nor do they use to do it to all the Parishes in the Diocess , but only to that one where the person liveth . But I doubt not but all that Church should know of it , of which he was a Communicating member , ( by the way , why is not all the Diocess told of it , but that men are conscious that he hath not Personal communion with them ; and therefore need not be so Excommunicated ? ) 6. Therefore mens limited capacity allowing them Personal Communion but in a narrow compass , there needs no Confederacy of all the Christian World for the rejecting of those that one of them hath first rejected . 7. But in well-ordered agreeing Churches none should be received presently into the Communion of another Church , without due notice of his aptitude or capacity ; which regularly should be by the Certificates of the Church whence he came , called Communicatory Letters ; or if he was never before admitted to the Sacrament because not at age , his own Personal profession giveth him right ; and so it doth in the Countries where through neglect such Certificates or Testimonies are not in use , sobeit there come in no proof against him , that he stands Excommunicate , or deserveth it . A professing Christian hath right to Communion if he travel through all the Churches in the World , till his profession be disproved , or his claim disabled by just testimony . If a man be Excommunicate in , e. g. Lincoln-Diocess in one Parish-Church , above a thousand Parishes more of the same Church Diocesan , may receive him for want of notice , unless they are bound to receive no stranger of another Parish ; and that is a kind of Excommunicating of all Christians from the Communion of all the Christian World , except one Parish . 8. The Legal Excommunication , which is only a general pronunciation that such or such sinners in specie shall be actually excommunicate , is done already by God himself in his Universal Laws . And no man ought to make Laws to Excommunicate any that Gods Laws do not decree to be Excommunicate , save that when there is a difficulty in discerning whether this or that Doctrine or practice be indeed the sin so condemned in Gods Laws , mens Laws may expound it ▪ to remove that difficulty . If all were excommunicate that Gods own Laws do require to be excommunicate , alas ! how great would the number be ? So little need is there , that Voluminous Councils should excommunicate many more ; and that Councils should be added to Councils to the end of the world , to make new Laws for excommunicating men . 9. Where God hath commanded all Christians in his Laws , to avoid any sort of wicked men , and with such not to eat , the fact being once notorious , the person is so far , ipso jure , excommunicate , as that all are bound to avoid familiarity with that person , though no Bishop sentence him : But the Pastors having the Church Keys , we must not go out of the Church , because such a man is there ; for who shall be in the Church , is at his Judgment ; but who shall be at my Table , is at mine . 10. But if the Church it self be essentiated of such as God thus commandeth all to avoid , and this be notorious , every Christian must avoid that Church . The Essentials of a Church are the pars regens & pars subdita , the Pastors , and the Body of the flock . If either be so far corrupt , the Church is corupt : When any one essential part is wanting ▪ or depraved , then the Essence is wanting , or depraved : Therefore where many Pastors make up the pars regens of a particular Church , it is not the heresie , or wickedness of some one only that will warrant a separation ; because one is but an integral , and not an essential part : But where one Bishop only is the essential regent constitutive part , there that one mans heresie , or notorious wickedness ( such as we are commanded to have no Communion with ) will allow us to avoid that Church , as a Church , though not each Member of it , who are parts still of the Universal Church . If I knew what further explication of my thoughts it is that you desire , I should be ready to give it you . III. As to the coercive power which you talk of , it is strange if we can differ about the nature of it ; but we greatly differ , I suppose , about the extent of it . Pardon me , if to avoid confusion , I first speak of the Name , and then of the Thing . 1. Though our ordinary use of the words , coactive and coercive , be to signifie that which worketh either on the Body , and its provision only , or on the Mind by force upon the Body , or Estate ; yet if you will but tell me what you mean by it , so distinctly that we may not be entangled with Logomachy , take it in what sense you will. The words which you use are the signification of your mind : I desire but to understand , and to be understood : I follow Bishop Bilson ( of Christ. Obed. ) , and others commonly , that distinguish the power of Magistrates and Pastors , by the Names of the power of the Sword , and of the Word ▪ By the first , they mean all power of corporal mul●ts and penalties , directly such ( for he that griev●th the mind , consequently troubleth the body ) . By the latter , they mean all that Official power of Gods Word and Sacraments which worketh by the senses of hearing , seeing and tasting , upon the Conscience , that is , on the Understanding and Will , and by these reformeth practice . The word is thus de●ivered , either Generally , by common Doctrine , which is historical , assertive , precepts , prohibitions , promises or threatnings , or by personal application of these . 1. By meer words , as in personal instruction , precept , threatning , &c. and by declaration , that this person proved and judged guilty of impenitency , in such and such sin , is uncapable of Church-communion , therefore by au●hority from Christ I command him to forbear , and you to avoid him . And such a one being proved innocent or penitent , hath by Gods Law right to Communion with his Church , therefore I absolve him , invite him , receive him , and command you in Christs name to hold loving Communion with him . 2. Or it is the application of words and Sacramental signs toget●er , by solemn tradition and investiture ; or the denying of such Sacraments . Briefly , Magistrates by mulcts , prisons , exile , 〈◊〉 , &c. work on the body ; Pastors have no such power , b●t by General Doctrine and personal application by words and Sacraments ( given or denied ) work on the mind or conscience ; 〈◊〉 which some call a Perswasive power ; distinguishing ( as Camero 〈◊〉 ) between private perswasion of an equal , &c. and Doct●ral , Pastoral , Official , Perswasion , whose force is by the Divine authority of the perswader , used in Teaching , Disciplinary judging , and Sacraments . If you will call this last coercive , or by any other name , you have your liberty . I will do my part that you may understand me , if I may not understand you . 2. Now ad rem , can we disagree how far this constraineth the unwilling ? Not without some great neglect or culpable defect . I may suppose then that we are agreed of all these particulars : 1. That Gods Laws have told us who must or must not have Sacramental Communion , which we must obey , whatever be the effects . 2. That Excommunication is not only , nor alway chiefly , to bring the person Excommunicated to obedience ( no more than hanging ) but to keep the purity and reputation of the Church , and the safety of the members , and to warn others . 3. That the way by which it is to affect the offender , is , 1. By shaming him ; 2. By striking his Conscience with the sense of Gods displeasure declared thus by his Ministers . 4. So far as the Sacrament is a means of conveying grace , to deny it , is not to reform but to destroy . But when the person hath made himself uncapable of the benefit of the Sacrament , and apt to receive it abusively to his hurt , then it may possibly humble him to be denied it . 5. If the denial of the Sacrament work not on a mans Conscience morally ( as threatnings do ) it no way compelleth him to his duty , nor saveth him from sin . 6. De facto many hundred thousands of ignorant wicked members of Episcopal Churches are so far from being constrained to goodness by being without the Sacrament , that they are content to be without it , and loth to be forced to it . 7. The more sin and wickedness any man hath , the less true conscience ; and the less conscience , the less doth he regard a due Excommunication . 8. The Bishops themselves are conscious of the insufficiency of their Excommunications alone to compel any to obedience , while they confess that without the Secular power of the sword to back it , they would be but laught at , and despised by the most . Nor durst they ever try to govern by their Church Keys alone among us without the enforcement of the sword . And at the same time while they Excommunicate them from the Sacrament , they have a Law to lay them in Gaol , and utterly ruin them if they will not receive it . How loth are the Bishops to lose this compelling Law. 9. I think few of my acquaintance in England do believe that any great number are brought to holy reformation , no nor to Episcopal obedience , by the fear of being kept from the Sacrament , but that which they fear is the Corporal penalty that followeth ; lay by that , and you may try . 10. If you will trust to that spiritual power alone , & valeat quantum valere potest , without corporal force , few that I know of will resist you , ( but many thousands will despise you , as the Bishops well foresee ) bring as many to obedience by it as you can . But if you mean that you must needs have the Magistrate to second you , as your Lictor or Executioner , and to imprison , fine , banish , burn , &c. it would be too gross hypocrisie to call the effects of this coercive power , the effects of Excommunication , and to call it coercive power to deny a man the Sacrament , because he feareth the sword . 11. De facto , there are supposed to be in the Parish that you dwell in , above 60000 souls , suppose 10000 of these yearly receive the Sacrament ( though some say it is not 5000. ) Are the other 40000 compelled to obedience by not communicating . 12. All those forbear your Sacrament without any sense of coercion or loss , 1. Who believe ( as you do ) that Sacramental Communion is a sin , where it cannot lawfully be had ( that is , say you , where the Bishops forbid it ; say they , where Gods Laws forbid it , by reason of adherent sin . 2. And that , take the Bishops who forbid it them to be Usurpers , that have no true calling ( as all the Papists do of our Bishops , and many others . ) 3. Who take it to be more eligible , yea a necessary duty to hold Communion with purer societies . 4. Besides all those Sectaries that make light of Sacraments in general . What Papists , Quakers , Anabaptist , Separatists , &c. are compelled to any good by the Bishops denying them the Sacrament ? 13. Nothing but Ignorance or Impudence can deny that the difficulty of knowing whose Excommunication it is that is to be dreaded as owned by God , hath encouraged professed Christians so confusedly to Excommunicate one another , as that this Excommunication hath been so far from constraining most to repentance , that it hath made Christianity a horrid scandal to Infidels and Heathens , by setting the Christian World in the odious confusion of Excommunicating one another . To give some instances how far Excommunication is not coercive . 1. Who but the Devil was the gainer of Pope Victor's Excommunicating the Asians about Easter-day ? Did it compel them to obedience ? 2. When the Orthodox Excommunicated the Arrians , did it force them to obey ? When they got almost all the Bishops for them , and Excommunicated and destroyed their Excommunicators ? 3. When the Cecilians ( or Orthodox ) and the Donatists for so many ages Excommunicated one another , meerly upon the difference which party had the true Ordained Bishops , did Excommunications force them to obedience ? 4. ( To pass forty other Sects ) when Rome Excommunicated , yea and prosecuted the Novatians , did it compel them to obey ? And did not Atticus , Sisinnius and Proclus win more by allowing them their own Communion , and living with them in love and peace ? Chrysostome since threatned the Novatian Bishop that he would silence him ; but he quickly recalled his word before they parted , and durst not do it . 5. Did Cyril's Counsel against the Ioannites win them , or harden them ? Was it not Atticus and Proclus love and lenity that ended that division ? 6. Did the Excommunicating of the Nestorians by Cyril , compell them to obedience , when so much of the East are Nestorians to this day , and requite the Orthodox with their Excommunications ? 7. Did the Excommunicating of those that rejected the Council of Calcedon , ( the Eutychians , and Acephali ) compel them to obedience , when many Emperours took their part , and the greater number of Bishops joined with them , and they equally damned those that received the Council for many Princes reigns . And when so great a part of Christians as are the Iacobites , Abassines , &c. own Dioscorus , and condemn that Council to this day ? 8. Did the Excommunicating of the old Hereticks , Gnosticks , Basilidians , Valentinians , Paulinists , Apollinarians , Eunomians , Aetians , Photinians , Macedonians , Priscillians , &c. compel them to obedience at all ? or did they regard it ? 9. Did the Excommunicating of the parties that were for silence ( the Acacians as to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and those that were for Zeno's Henoticon ) compel them to obedience ? 10 D●d the mutual damnations of the Phantasticks , Iustinian's and G●mas party , and the Corrupticolae , force either to obedience ? 11. Did the Excommunications of the Monothelites compel them to obedience ? when in the days of Philippicus they had a Council , saith Binnius , of Innumerable Bishops ? And he saith , that the General Council at Trul called Quini●extum was of the same men that were in the approved sixth General Council , and that they were Monothelites . 12 Did the several Excommunications of the Constantinopolitan Bishop , by the Roman , and of the Roman again by them , and the Alexandrian , &c compel either party to obedience ? 13. Had the Pope Excommunicated the Africans in the long fraction in the days of Aurelius and Austin , would it have compeled them to obedience ? 14. When the Pope ( at last ) joined with Iu●tinians General Council against the Tria Capitula , and condemned the refusers of it , did it compel his own neighbour-Bishops to obedience , when they so generally forsook him , that there were not three Bishops to Consecrate the Pope , but he was fain to use a Presbyter ; and when they set up a Patriarch at Aquileia as their chief , and condemned or forsook the Pope for near an hundred years ? 15. Did the Popes Excommunicating of the Goths in Spain and and other parts , compel them to obey him ? 16. Did Augustines rejection of the Britains , and the Britains and Scots long refusing Communion with the Romanists , compel either party to obey ? 17. Did the Excommunicating of Leo Isaurus , Constantine , and the rest of the Iconoclasts , compel them to obey ? 18. Did the Excommunicating of the Albigenses and Waldenses , bring them to obedience ? Or was it not ( say some Historians ) the murder of about two Millions , that solitudinem fecit , quam vocarunt pacem ? 19. Did the Excommunications of the Emperours , Frederick , Henry , &c. and their adherents , as the Venetian Interdict , compel them to obedience ? 20. Did the Excommunicating of the German Protestants , and Queen Elizabeth , and the English Protestants , bring them to obedience ? How many such instances may I give you ? If you say , To what purpose is all this ? I shall say , No doubt so knowing a man can tell . It is to tell you why I expect no more coercive power from meer Excommunication than experience and reason will allow me to expect . And no such perfect obedience and universal concord by it , as your words import . And some questions I here crave your Answer of . Qu. 1. The same that you so much urge on me : Seeing this matter of fact is undeniable , and Excommunication hath done no more than it hath done , Is all Church-Government therefore vain ? Or what is your own way of remedy ? Qu. 2. Seeing it is Bishops themselves , that for so many hundred years excommunicated one another as Hereticks and Schismaticks , how shall they , or their flocks be certain which Bishops they be , whose excommunications they must take , as Gods act , and which not ? I pray answer it plainly . 1. If any say , It must be the Majority , or greater number , then so were the Arrians too long , so were the Eutychians , so were the Monothelites , so were the Iconoclasts ; so the Papists say they are now . If you say , The Bishops in a General Council , that 's almost all one . What Wars were there between many General Councils ; and how long was it the Religion of one side , to be for one , and curse the other ; and of the other side , to curse all that did not receive that ? How shall we know which Council to obey ? If you say as Binnius , that all Councils have just so much power as the Pope giveth them , how shall we know that this is true ? But I suppose that will not be your answer . If you say , we must obey that which is Orthodox , who is the Judg ? If every man , then they that judg the excommunicating-Bishops , or Councils , not Orthodox , will not obey them . Truly I know not what answer to expect from you . Qu. 3. Can that man expect , that excommunicating should set all right , and bring men to obedience now in the end of the world , who is constrained ( against his will ) to be certain , that abused excommunications have been the great means of setting the Christian world into pernicious Sch●sms and Confusions ? Qu. 4. At this day , when the Papal Church unchurches all the Christian Churches that are not Subjects to the Pope ; and when the Greek Church excommunitcateth the Papal , and most continue damning one another , can you think , that even excommunicating is the remedy to cure these Schisms , and set all right ? Qu. 5. If denying men the Sacrament , will constrain men to obedience , why do not the Episcopal Churches through the world , cure the Peoples sins by keeping them from the Sacrament , when so great numbers are prophane , and sensual , and worldlings , and wicked , how easie a means of Conversion were it to forbid them all the Sacrament ? Qu. 6. Is it no contradiction to say , that the Sacrament is Gods means of giving Sanctification ? and yet that keeping men from it is the means ? Qu. 7. But if you mean not constraining to obey God , but only to obey the Bishop , and not God , what good will such obedience do the mans soul , that will not save him ? I confess the Magistrate that hath the Sword , may compel men to the use of the necessary suitable means of Conversion and Grace ; and those means may further Sanctification . IV. As to the Fourth Point , I have said enough of it to you heretofore . 1. If no Religious Assemblies for Preaching , Praying , and Sacraments , be lawful , but what the Bishops allow , then God hath put it into the Bishops power , whether he shall have any such publick worship , or any shall be obliged so to worship him , or not . But the Consequent is false ; Ergo , So is the Antecedent . True Pastors have but the power to promote , and order Gods worship , but not to exclude , or forbid it to any ( much less to all , or 1000. ) without necessary cause . 2. And then if Preaching , and Hearing , and Sacraments , be ordinarily necessary to mens salvation , then God hath left it to the will , or power of the Bishops , whether any of the people shall be ( ordinarily ) saved . But that is not so . 3. And then if the King should license , or command us to Preach , Pray , and Communicate , and the Bishop forbid it , it were sin . But that I will not believe , unless the Cause , more than the Authority , make the difference . To cooclude , I hold , that just use of the Keys is very necessary , and that it is the great sin of England to reject it : But that a false usurped use of excomunication hath been the incendiary of the Christian world , which hath broken it to pieces , caused horrid Schisms , Rebellions , Treasons , Murders , and bloody Wars . I. The just use is , 1. When a scandalous or great sinner is with convincing evidence told of his error , and with seriousness , yet with love and compassion , intreated to repent , and either prevailed with , and so absolved , or after due patience , Authoritatively pronounced uncapable of Church-Communion , and bound over to answer it at the Bar of Christ , in terror if he repent not , and this by the Pastor of that particular Church , which either statedly , or pro tempore , he belongeth to . 2. And when this is duly notified to such Neighbour-Pastors as he may seek Communion with , and they agree not to receive any justly cast out by others , but to receive and relieve the injured and falsly condemned . 3. And when the King and his Justices , permit not the ejected violently to intrude , and take the Sacrament , or joyn with the Church by force , but preserveth forcibly the Peace and Priviledges of the Churches . II. The excommunication that hath turned the Church into Factions , and undone almost East and West , is , 1. When a Bishop , because of his humane Superiory , as Patriark , Primate , or Pope , claimeth the power of excommunicating other Bishops , as his Subjects , whose Sentence must stand because of his Regent power . 2. Or at least , gathering a Council where he shall preside , and that Council shall take themselves to have a Governing power of the Keys over the particular Bishop , not only to renounce Communion with them themselves , but to oblige all others to stand to their judicial Sentence . 3. When Bishops shall meddle causelesly in other Bishops Churches , and make themseves Judges either of distant , unknown persons , and cases , or of such as they have nothing to do to try . Yea , judg men of other Countries , or so distant , as the Witnesses and Causes cannot without oppression be brought to their Bar. 4. When they disgrace Gods universal Laws of Communion , as ins●ffici●nt , and make a multitude of unnecessary , ensnaring , dividing Laws of their own , according to which they must be mens Judges . 5. When these Laws are not made only for their own flocks and selves , but for all the Christian world , or for absent , or dissenting persons . 6. When men excommunicate others for hard words , not understood , that deserve it not as to real matter . 7. Or do it to keep up an unlawful usurped power over those Churches that never consented to take them for their Pastors , and to rule where they have no true Authority but such as standeth on a forcing strength . 8. When Lay-Chancellors use the Keys of the Church . 9. When men excommunicate others wickedly , for doing their duty to God and man , or unjustly without sufficient Cause . 10. When unjust excommunicators force Ministers against their Consciences to publish their condemnations against those that they know to be not worthy of that Sentence , if not the best of their flocks . 11. And when they damn all as Hereticks , Schismaticks , &c. that communicate with any that they thus unjustly damn . 12. When they dishonour Kings , and higher Pwers , by disgracing excommunications ; much more when they depose them . 13. When they tell Princes , that it is their duty to banish , imprison ▪ or destroy men , because excommunicate , and not reconciled ; and make Kings their Executioners . And so of old , when a Bishop was excommunicate , he must presently be banished : And they say , the Scots horning is of the same nature . If all had been either banished , or imprisoned , that were excommunicate , a●d unreconciled in the pursuit of the General Councils of old , how great a diminution would it have made of the free Subjects of the Empire ? And if Princes must strike with the Sword , all that stand excommunicate , without trying , and judging the persons themselves , it is no wonder if such Prelates , as can first so debase them to be their Lictors , can next depose them . He is like to be a great Persecuter , that will imprison or banish all that a proud contentious Clergy will excommunicate . As corruptio optimi est pessima , I doubt not but a wise , humble , holy , spiritual , loving , heavenly , zealous , patient , exemplary sort of Pastors is the means of continuing Christs Kingdom in the World , and such are the Pillars and Basis of Truth in the House of God ( as it is said of Timothy , not of the Church as is commonly mistaken ) . So an ignorant , worldly , carnal , proud , usurping , domineering , hypocritical sort of Pastors , have been the great plagues , and causes of Schism , confusion , and common calamity : And that when Satan can be the chuser of Pastors for Christs Church , he will ( and too oft hath ) ever chuse such as shall most succesfully serve him in Christs Name . And I doubt not , but such holy Discipline , as shall keep clean the Church of Christ , and keep off the reproach of wickedness and uncleanness from the Christian Religion , and manifest duly to the flock the difference between the precious and the vile , is a great Ordinance of God ( which one man cannot exercise over many hundred Parishes , and unknown people ) . But an usurped domineering use of excommunication , to subdue Kings , Princes , Nobles , and people to the Jurisdiction , Opinions , and Canons of Popes , Patriarchs , Prelates , or their Councils , I think hath done not the least part of Satans work in the world . And I must tell you , that I have lived now near 62. ( now near 66. ) years , and I never saw one man or woman reformed or converted by excommunication ( and I hope I have known thousands converted from their sin by Preaching , even by some that are now forbidden to Preach ) . All that ever I knew excommunicate , were of two sorts . 1. Dissenters from the Opinions of the Bishops , or conscientious refusers of their commands : And these all rejoice in their sufferings , applying , Blessed are ye , when they cast out your names , &c. say all evil of you falsly , &c. or they take their censure for wicked persecution . The Papists laugh at their Excommunicators , and say , What an odd conditioned Church have you , that will cast us out that never came in , and because we will not come in ? 2. Ungodly impenitent sinners : And these hate the excommunicators for disgracing them , and are driven further off from godliness than before : But they will say , they repent at any time , rather than go to the Gaol . I never saw one person brought to publick confession in the Assembly , by the Bishops Discipline ; but I heard I was young , of one , or two , that for Adultery stood in a White Sheet in the Church , laughing at the sport , or hating the imposers . When there were no Bishops among us , about 1650. many Episcopal , Presbyterians , &c. agreed , where I lived , to exercise so much Discipline , as we were all agreed belonged to Presbyters . Hereupon I found good success , in bringing some to repentance by admonition , but never of any one that stood it out to an excommunication ( so far as we went , which was only to admonish , and pray for their repentance publickly , and after to declare them unmeet for Christian Communion , and to require the people to avoid them accordingly , till they repent ) . After this they hated us more than before ( and one of them laid hands on me in the Church-Yard , to have killed me ) . And I am sure that they reverenced those Ministers more than now Lay-Chancellors ( if not Bishops ) are by such reverenced : So that experience convinced me , that the penalty of excommunication is much more beneficial to others , than to the excommunicate . And how many thousands in your Parish do now voluntarily excommunicate themselves from the Sacrament , and Church-Assemblies , and find no Remorse , or Reformation by it ? And if all of both sorts ( conscientious Dissenters , and prophane despisers , and sinners ) were excommunicated now by the Church of England , without any corporal penalty adjoyned , what do you think it would do upon them ? Would they not laugh at you , or pity you ? Do not the Bishops believe this , and therefore will not trust to their excommunications at all without the Sword ? I cannot magnifie the Discipline of such men as count themselves the Power of the Keys to be but a Leaden Sword , a vain thing , without the annexed enforcement of corporal penalties : If it be but outward obedience to their commands , which they drive men to ▪ without the heart , 1. Men of no Conscience will soonest obey them , as forced against their Consciences . 2. And why do they abuse the name of the Keys , as if it were the cause of that which it is no cause of , but is done only by the Magistrates Sword ? It is the Writ De excom . cap. that doth it , and not the Keys . And they that think unwilling persons have right to the great benefit of Church Communion ; yea , all that had rather come ●o Church than lie in Gaol , shall never have my assent . If really your meaning be to set up the power of the Keys by themselves , to do their proper work , and not expect that Magistrates must joyn their forcing power , to punish a man meerly because he beareth the Bishops punishment patiently , without changing his mind ; Let it prevail as far as it can prevail ; who will fear it ( save for the Schism that it may cause ) ? But if it be your meaning all this while , that under the name of denying the Sacrament , it is Confiscation or the Gaol that must do the work , I should wish for more of the Spirit of Christianity , and less inclination to the Inquisition-way . Persecution never yet escaped its due odium , or penalty , by disowning its proper name . I am more of St. Martin's mind than of Ithacius's . V. One word more I add , That I like not your making so light as you seem to me to do , of the badness of some Ministers and People that are in the allowed Churches . I know that the Papists speak much of the holiness of a Pope , when perhaps a General Council saith , he is a Murderer , Adulterer , Heretick , &c. and so call their Church Relatively holy . I deny not that Relative holiness , which is founded in meer profession : But I believe , that Christ came to gather a people to another sort of Godliness , and by his Spirit to fill them with Divine and Heavenly Life , Light , and Love ( to God and man ) . And I believe , that all that have this ( though excommunicate ) shall be glorified : And that without this , all the obedience to Bishops that they give , will never keep them out of Hell. And I take it to be no great priviledg to march in an orderly Army to damnation , or to be at peace in Satans power . Hell will be Hell which way ever we come to it . I confess , were these Bishops in the right , that Sancta Clara citeth , that say , The ignorant people might merit by hating God , as an act of obedience , if their Pastors should tell them it is their duty ; then this external obedience to them were more considerable : But I had rather go in the Company that goeth to Heaven ( as all do that are true Lovers of God and man ) than in that which goeth to Hell ( as do the most Regular of the ungodly ) . And yet I account true obedience , and regularity , a great duty of the godly , and a great help to godliness . And therefore I value the Means for the End , Concord for Piety and salvation . And I cannot think , that there is not now in London , a very laudable degree of Concord among all those that , though in different Assemblies , and with difference of opinions about small matters , do hold one Body , one Spirit , one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one Celestial hope , and one God and Father of all , and live in Love , and Peace and Patience towards each other : This is far greater Concord than the thousands of people , that deserving excommunication for their wicked lives , do hold in the bosom of the Church , which receiveth them as children thereof . And O! were it not for that uncharitable impatience , which an ill selfish Spirit doth contain , why should it seem to us a matter of such odium , envy , or out-cry , for men to hear the same Gospel from another man , which for some differing opinion they will not hear from us ? Or for men to communicate , e. g. standing , or sitting in a Congregation of that mind , that ( weakly ) scruple to kneel at it with others ( the old Canons countenancing their gesture of standing , more than kneeling ) What harm will it do me , if ( under the strictest Laws of Peace ) men worshipped God by themselves , that scruple some word , or action in our worship ? E. g. a Nestorian that should think , that it is improper to say , that the Virgin Mary was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that the denomination should be a ratione formali , rather than a materiali : Would Liberty in such matters , with Love and Peace , do more hurt to the Churches than Schismatical excommunications have done ? And indeed it is hard to make people able to reconcile a Conjunct earn●stness , in driving the same men into the Church , and casting them out ; yea , of excommunicating them , ipso facto , by divers Canons ( sine sententia ) , and accusing them for not communicating . If it be for not repenting , 1. Can you bring all the sinners about us to repentance , by excommunications ? Why then are the openly wicked so numerous ? 2. Do you think men can change their judgment , meerly because they are commanded , or excommunicated ? If a man study , and pray , and endeavour to the utmost , to know the truth , and you say , that yet he erreth , will a censure cure his understanding ? E. g. a Nestorian , a Monothelite , an Anabaptist , &c. much less when a man knoweth that he is in the right , and the censurer fighteth againd truth and duty . Men in some diseases will rage at the sight of certain things , which would not much trouble them , if the disease were cured . Macedonius , and Nestorius , that were judged Hereticks themselves , could not bear the Bishops , and meetings of the Novatians ; But Atticus could , and they lived together in Christian Love. I know those places now in England , where a Conformable and Nonconformable Minister , live in so great love , and the latter go still to the Parish-Churches , and the former sometimes come to them , as that no considerable trouble ariseth by their difference : And I know other places , where the publick Ministers cannot bear any that hear not themselves , yea , or that constantly hearing them , hear any other that dissenteth . But they seek to win Dissenters , as Fowlers would bring Birds to the Net , by showting , and throwing stones at them ; and Anglers would catch Fish , by beating the Waters . VI. I will tell you also , that I much dissent from you , in that when I told you , that the Tyranny of Prelates hath done more hurt than the disobedience and discord of the People towards them , you said , you do not think so . Qu. Do you think that Thieves have killed as many men as Wars have done ? If it be true , that Iulius Caesar , and his Armies killed 1192000. persons , besides those that he slew in the Civil Wars . That Darius lost at once 200 000 , and abundance of such instances in lower degrees may be given ; sure poor Thieves and Murderers come far short of this account . And so it is in the present case . Gregory Nazian ▪ was a wise , and good man , who saith , the people were factious , and too unruly , but ( at Const. ) were honest , and meant well . But how sadly doth he describe the Bishops , as rage●ing even in their Councils , and as the far greater causes of all calamity ! Judg by the Twenty instances that I before gave you , about their excommunication : How few Heresies , or Schisms , were there of old , that the Bishops were not the notorious causes of ? The Samosatinians , Apollinarians , Macedonians , Nestorians , Acephali , the Monothelites , yea , the Donatists , Novatians , the Phantasiasticks , and almost all : The Arrians began by a Presbyter ; but if Petavius cites them truly ( as he doth ) too many Bishops led him the way , and most of the Bishops followed , and were the men that kept up , and increased the Heresie , far beyond the people , or the Presbyters . Eutychus , a Monk , began his Cause ; but he was quickly contemned by his followers , and did little in comparison of Dioscorus , Severus , and many hundred more Bishops . And is it the People , or the Bishops , that now keep East and West in mutual damnations ? Have the Peoples divisions done more harm than the Papal Schism , and Usurpations , and Cruelties , killing about 2000000. as is said of Albigenses and Waldenses , the Inquisitions , bloody Wars against the Germane Emperors , and many English Kings , the Rebellion against the Greek Emperor , Leo Isaurus , and destruction of the Eastern Empire , our Smithfield Bone-fires , and innumerable other Cruelties , Desolations , Heresies and Schisms ? Are all these less than the abuse of Liberty by Inferiors , in Praying , Preaching , or Disorders ? Judg Hale saith , That he had a friend that stored a very great Pond of Three or Four Acres , with a great number of Fish , and at Seven years end only put in Two very small Pikes , and at the draught of his Pond , there was not one Fish left , but the Two Pikes grown to an excessive bigness , and all the rest with their millions of fry devoured by the pair of Tyrants . Hale of the Orig. of Man , Sect. 2. cap. 9 pag. 208. The Block had been a better Ruler . The Lord forgive the Presbyterians their over-keenness against Sects , before the Pikes have made an end of them . Pardon truth to Your Servant , Ri. Baxter . For the Learned Mr. Henry Dowell ( after a personal Conference with him ) . SIR , COncord and Peace are so very desirable to the ends of Christianity , that I am glad to hear you speak for them in the general , though I take your way to be certainly destructive of them ; and because you think the like of mine , and so while we are agreed for the end , we greatly differ about the means , I shall here perform what I last offered you , viz. I. An explication of my own sense of the way of Church-concord ( because you said I am still upon the destructive part ) viz. 1. My fundamental Principles . 2. The way of concord , which I suppose to be sufficient , and only likely ( as appointed by God ) to attain that end . II. The reasons of my utter dissent from your way . III. A Proposal for our further debating of these differences . I. I hope if you are a man of charity or impartiality , it will be no hard matter to you to believe that I am willing to be acquainted with healing truth ( that I say not as willing as you ) ; and if I be unhappy in the success of my Enquiries , it is not for want of searching diligence . And your parts assure me , that it is so with you . But it is the usual effect of one received error , to let in many more ; and it is so either with me or you . And lest it should prove my unhappiness , I shall thankfully accept your remedying informations . 1. The Principles which I presuppose , are such as these . 1. As God as Creator , so Christ as Redeemer is the Universal King and Head over all things to the Church , which is his body , Ephes. 1.22 , 23. Ioh. 17.2 , &c. 2. He hath made Vniversal Laws to be means of this Universal Government . 3. His Universal Laws are in suo genere sufficient to their proper use . 4. There is no other Universal King or Ruler of the world , or of the Church , whether Personal or Collective . And therefore none that hath power of Universal Legislation , or Jurisdiction . 5. Much less any that hath a superiour power to alter Gods Universal Laws by abrogation , subrogation , suspension , or dispensation . Nor will God himself alter them , and substitute new ones . As Tertullian saith , We at first believe this , that no more is to be believed . 6. These Laws of our Universal Governour are partly of natural Revelation , and partly of Supernatural , viz. by himself , and by his Spirit in his Apostles given in an extraordinary measure to this end , to lead them into all truth , which is delivered to us in their Scripture-records . 7. Some local precepts , whose matter was narrow and temporary , even the mutable customs of that time and place were also narrow and temporary ; ( as the washing of feet , anointing , vailing women , the kiss of peace , &c ) which maketh nothing for the mutability of the Universal Laws . 8. No Pastors since the Apostles , are by office or power appointed to make any Universal Laws for the Church , nor any of the same kind and reason with Gods own Laws , whose reason or cause was existent in the Apostles times , but only to explain the word of God , and apply it to particular persons and cases , as Ministers under Christ in his Teaching , Priestly and Governing office ; nor have the Apostles any other kind of Successors . 9. Christ made not Peter or any one of his Apostles Governour of the rest : But when they strove who should be the chief , rebuked that expectation , and determined , That among them Preeminence should consist in excelling in humility and service . 10. When the Corinthians were sick of the like disease , Paul rebuked them for saying , I am of Cephas , and determineth that Apostles are but particular members of the body , of which Christ only is the Head ; and not the Lords , but Ministers and helpers of their faith . 11 ▪ No Pastors ( as such ) have forcing power , either to touch mens bodies , or estates , or inflict by the sword corporal penalties , or mulcts . But only by the word ( by which the power of the Keys is exercised ) to instruct men , and urge Gods precepts , promises and threats upon their Consciences . 12. The Apostles were Bishops eminenter , in that they called , gathered , and while they stayed with them , governed Churches . But not formaliter as taking any one particular Church for their proper charge : But setled such fixed Bishops over them . And though they distributed their labours about the world prudently , and as the Spirit of Christ guided them ; yet we find not any probability that ever they divided the world into twelve or thirteen Provinces , or ever setled twelve or thirteen chief Metropolitical seats in the world , which their proper Successors as such should govern in preeminence . Nor doth any History intimate such a thing ; nor yet that any Apostle took any City for his proper Diocess , where another Apostle might not come and exercise equal Power . 13. It seemeth that Christs sending out his seventy Disciples by two and two , and the Apostles staying together much at Ierusalem , and Paul and Barnabas's going forth together , and after Paul & Silas , and Barnabas and Mark , & Peter and Paul ( supposed ) to be together at Rome , &c. that the Spirit of God did purposely prevent the intentions of any afterward of being the Metropolitical Successors of single Apostles or Disciples of Christs immediate sending , in this or that City as their proper seat . 14. As Grotius thinks that the Churches were instituted after the likeness of the Synagogues , of which one City had many ; so Dr. Hammond endeavours to evince , not only that Peter and Paul were Bishops of two distinct Churches of Rome , one of the Iews , and the other of the Gentile Christians ; but also that it was so in other Cities . Dissertat . 15. The Patriarchs were not 12 or 13 , but three first , and five afterward ; and none of them pretended to any power as especial Successors of any one Apostle , but Antioch and Rome of Peter ; ( and that was not their first claim or title , but an honorary reason why men afterward advanced them . ) Alexandria claimed Succession but from St. Mark , and Ierusalem from Iames ( no Apostle , if Dr. Hammond and others be not much mistaken ) and Constantinople from none . 16. The 28 Canon of Calcedon tels us enough of the foundation , title and reason of Patriarchal power , and all Church-History that the Metropolitical Powers were granted by Emperours , either immediately , or empowering Councils thereto . 17. These Emperours having no power out of the Empire , neither by themselves , nor by Councils , gave not any power that extended further than the Empire , or that could by that title continue to any City which fell under the Government of another Prince . 18 A● the●e never was a Council truly Universal , so the name Vniversal or Oec●menical was not of old given them , in respect to the whole Christian world , but to the whole Empire ; as the power that called them , and the names of the Bishops subscribed , &c. fully prove . 19. Before Christian Princes did empower them , Councils were but for Counsel , concord and correspondency , and particular Pastors were bound by their Decrees only : 1. For the evidence of truth which they made known : 2. And by the General Law of God , to maintain unity and peace , and help each other . But afterward , by vertu● of the Princes Law , or Will , they exercised a direct Government over the particular Bishops , and those were oft banished that did not submit to them . 20. While Councils met but for Counsel and Concord , and also when afterwards they were but Provincial , or National under Kings , where none of the Patriarchal Spirit and Interest did corrupt them , they made excellent Orders , and were a great blessing to the Churches : Of the first sort , e. g. were divers African , and of the latter divers Spanish , and French , when neither Emperor , nor Pop● ▪ did over-rule them , but the Gothish , and French Kings moderately govern them . But though I deny not any good which the Councils , called General , did , especially the fir●● Nicene ; yet I must profess , that the History of the Patriarchal Seats , and the History of the General Councils , and the Church-Wars then , and after them managed by Four of the Patriarchs especially , and their Bishops ▪ the confusion caused in most of the Churches , the Anathematiz●ng of one another , the blood that hath been shed in the open streets , of Monks ▪ and common people ; yea , the fighting , and fury of Bishops at the Councils , to the death of some of them , their ●iring out the endeavours of such Emperors , and their Officers , that would have kept Peace and Concord among them , do all put me out of hope , that the Peace and Concord of the Christian world , should ever be setled by Popes , Patriarchs , or such kind of Councils , which all have so long filled the Christian world with most calamitous divisions , contentions , and blood-shed , and made the snares , which continue its divisions and distractions to this day . II. I conceive , that the means of Church-concord , appointed by God , is as follows ▪ But I premise , 1. It must be pre-supposed , That no perfect Concord will be had on earth ; yea ▪ that there will unavoidably be very many differences , which must be born . So great is the diversity of mens natural Capacity and Temper , their Education , Company , Teachers , Helps , Interests , Callings , Temptations , &c. that it is not probable that any Two men in all the world , are in every particular of the same mind : And every man that groweth in knowledg , will more and more differ from himself , and not be of the same mind as he was when he knew less . 2. Yet must our increase in knowledg , and Concord , be our continual endeavour ; and it is the use of teaching to bring these differences , caused by ignorance , to as small a number as we can . 3. There is scarce a more effectual means of Division , and Confusion , and Church-ruin , to be devised , than to suppose a more extensive Concord to be possible , and necessary , than indeed is ; and so to set up an impossible End , and Means , and to deny Concord and Peace to all that cannot have it on those terms . If all should be denied to be the Kings Subjects , who dare not profess Assent , Consent , and approbation of every law , and part , or word of the laws , or that agree not of the meaning of every law , or that differ in any matters of Religion , what a Schism , Confusion , and Ruine would it unavoidably make in the Kingdom ? and how few Subjects would it leave the King ? Even as if none but men of the same stature , visage , or wit , should be Subjects . 4 ▪ The necessary Union and Concord of Christians , is a matter of so great importance , that it cannot be supposed , that Christ is the sole Universal Lawgiver , and yet hath not ordained , or determined what shall be the terms of necessary Christian Unity and Concord : And indeed he hath determined it . Viz. I. He hath ordained Baptism himself , to be our Christning , or our visible Investiture in the Church Universal ; that is , our Relation to Christ , as the Head of his Universal Kingdom , or Body . And every rightfully baptized person ( till by violating that Covenant he forfeit his benefits ) , is to be taken by us as a Member of Christ , a Child of God , and an Heir of Heaven ; and we are bound to love him as a brother , and use him accordingly , in all due Offices of Love. And because the Church , into which Baptism entereth us , consists of Christian Pastors and People , Apostles and Prophets , having been as Foundations , infallibly delivering us , now recorded in Scripture the Word of Life ; and ordinary Pastors being appointed to teach , and guide the people in holy Doctrine , Worship , and Conversation ; therefore it is implied , that the baptized person at Age , understandeth this , and consenteth thereunto ; that is , to receive , as infallible , the recorded sacred Doctrine of the infallible persons , Apostles and Prophets , and the ordinary Ministry of such ordinary Pastors and Teachers , as he shall discern to be set over him by the Word and Spirit of Christ. Whether this consent to the Pastoral-Office , be necessary to the Being of a Christian , or only to the Well-being , is a controversie with which I need not stop , or length●n in this account . But Baptism , as such , doth not enter us into any particular Church . II. 1. Christ ( by himself , and his ●pirit in the Apostles ) hath ordained , that Christians shall be associated into particular Churches , consisting of the aforesaid Ordinary Pastors and their Flocks , for Personal Communion in holy D●ctrine , Worship , and Conversation ; in all which these Pastors are their Guides , according to the Laws , or Word of Christ , already delivered by the in●allible Ministry of the Apostles and Prophets ; against , or beyond which , Christ hath given them no power . Their Office is of his own making , and describing ; and their power to determine undetermined useful circumstances in Gods Worship , and Church-discipline , is but a power to obey Christs general commands ( to do all thing● in Love , Peace , Order , Decency , and to Edification ) , which they may not violate . 2. Every Christian that hath opportunity , should be a Member of some such particular Church ; Statedly , if it may be ; if not , yet transiently : But some may want such opportunity ( as single persons converted , or cast among Infidels ; Travellers , Embassadors , Factors , and other Merchants , ( among Infidels ) or where Christianity is so corrupted by the P●stors , as that they will not allow men Communion without sinful Oaths , Covenants , Professions , Words , or Practices . 3. No one at Age can be a Member of the Universal , or of any particular Church ( and so the Subj●ct of that Pastor ) against his will , or without his own consent ( however Antecedent Obligations may bind men to consent ) . 4. Every such Church should have its proper Bishop ; and in Ignatius's time , its Unity was describ●d by One Altar , and One Bishop , with his fellow Presbyters , and Deacons . 5. Such B●shops , or Pastors were to be ordained by Senior Bishops , or P●stors , and received by the E●ection , or Consent of the whole Church ; and for many hundred years no Churches received their Bishops on any other terms . The Ordainers , and the People or Church receiving him , having each a necessary consent , as a double Key for the security of the Church ; to which afterwards the Christian Magi●●rates consent was added according to Gods word , so far as protecting and countenancing of the Bishop did require , The senior Bishops must consent to his Ordination , the people must consent to him as formally related to themselves as their Pastor ; and the Magistrate as to one to be protected by him . 6 As without mutual consent the relation of Pastor and flock is not founded ; so Gods Providence must direct every man to know what particular Church he should be of , and whom by consent to take for the guide of his soul. In England men may freely chuse what Church and Pastor they will stand related to ; every man having liberty to dwell in what Parish or Diocess he please , without asking leave of the Bishop to remove . 7. The individuating or distingu●shing of particular Churches by peculiar Circuits , or proper spaces of ground , is no further of Gods institution , than it is the performance of the general commands of doing all in order to edification , &c. And as in prosperous times under godly peaceable Princes , it is greatly convenient and desirable ; so in several cases of Division , Church-corruption by Heresie , or Tyranny , Persecution , &c. it is inconvenient , and it becomes a necessary duty to gather Churches in the same space of ground where only some other Pastor had a Church before . The cases in which this is lawful , and the cases in which Separation is unlawful , having written largely in another paper , I shall offer it to you when you desire it . 8. It is not of absolute necessity that all the members of a particular Church , do always or usually meet in one place , ( though it be very convenient and desirable where it may be done ) ; for Persecution may prohibit it , or want of a large capacious place , or the great d●stance of some of the Inhabitants , or the age , or weakness of others ; and therefore in the ancient Churches , though at first they usually were all assembled in one place , yet after when they encreased , the Canons required all the people to assemble with the Bishop but at certain chief Festivals in the year , having Chappels or Oratories in the Villages where they m●t on other days . And with us many Parishes of great extent have many Chappels of ease . 9. But that the end of the Association be not only for distan● communion by Delegates or Letters , or meer relation to one common Ruler as all the Empire had to the Emperour , but for PERSONAL COMMVNION of Pastor and Flock , so that they may at least per vices meet together , or live within the reach of each others personal notice , and converse , and Communion in Doctrine , Worship and Discipline , this is essential to a partiicular Church , primi ordinis , of Divine Institution , of which I now treat . III. 1. As Christians must gather into particular Churches , under their proper Bishops ; so these Churches must hold a certain Communion among themselves , so much as is necessary to their mutual Edification and Preservation , of which Synods , and Communicatory Letters and Messengers , are the means . 2. An association of several Churches for Communion of Churches , doth tota specie differ from an association of individual Christians into one Church primae speciei . And it differeth in the matter , end , and kind of Communion . 3. If these several Churches agree in the same Baptismal Covenant , in the same ancient Creed or Articles of Faith , and in the same love and holy desires summed up by Christ in the Lords-prayer , and in taking the commands of Christ for the Rule of their conversation , and receiving Gods Revelations recorded in the holy Scriptures so far as they understand them , renouncing all contraries to any of this so soon as they perceive them so to be , this should suffice to their loving and comfortable communion , without any desires of Domination or Government over one another . And though I will not do any thing unpeaceably against Patriarchs , Metropolitans , Archbishops or Diocesans , if they govern according to the Laws of God ; yet I know no Divine right that any of them have to be the Rulers of the particular Bishops and Churches . Though a humane presidency for order we deny not , nor that junior Bishops do owe some respect and submission to the Seniors . 4. Though the General Laws of Christ ( for concord , edification , &c. ) do enable Magistrates by command , or Pastors by contract to chuse and make new Officers of their own ( which God never particularly instituted ) for the determining and executing such circumstantials as God hath left to humane prudence , ( as Presidents , Moderators , Churchwardens , Summoners , &c. ) yet I deny , 1. That any Officer of meer humane Institution hath a superior proper Ecclesiastical Power of the Keys , to be a Bishop of Bishops , and to govern the Governou●s of the particular Churches by Excommunications , Depositions , and Absolutions , seeing ex ratione rei , it belongeth to the same Legislator , who instituted the inferiour order , to have instituted the Superiour , if he would have had it . 2. And I peremptorily deny that any such pretended Superiour ( Patriarch , Primate , Metropolitan , Archbishop , &c. ) hath any power ( save Diabolical ) to deprive any particular Churches , Bishops , or Christians , of any of the Priviledges setled on them by Christs Vniversal Laws , or to disoblige them from any duties required by Christ. IV. It belongeth to the Office of Princes and Magistrates only to Rule all , both Clergy and Laity , by the sword or force ; even to drive Ministers to do their certain duty , and to punish them for sin . And they are to keep peace among the Churches ; and ( as bad as the Secular Powers have been ) had they not kept peace better than the Bishops have done , I am possest with horrour to think what a field of blood the Churches had been throughout the world , since the Exaltation of the Clergy . V. Christ only is ( as the Universal Legislator , so ) the Universal final judg , from whom there is no appeal . VI. Every Christian as a Rational Agent hath a Judgment of discerning , by which he must judg whether his Rulers commands be according to Christs commands or not . And if they be , must obey Christ in them . If not , must not obey them against Christ , but appeal to him . And if any do this erroneously , it is his sin ; if justly , it is his duty . These six Particulars I take to be the sufficient means which Christ hath appointed for the concord of the Church ; and that the seven points of Concord mentioned by the Apostle should satisfie us herein , viz. 1. One body . 2. One Spirit . 3. One hope of our calling . 4 One Lord. 5. One Faith. 6. One Baptism . 7. One God and Father of all . And they that agree in these , are bound to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace ; as knowing that the Kingdom of God consisteth not in meats and d●inks , but in Righteousness , peace and joy in the Holy Ghost . And he that in these serveth Christ , is acceptable to God , and ( should be ) approved of men , Rom. 14.17 , 18. Ephes. 4.6 , 7 , &c. Nor is it lawful for any to hate , persecute , silence , or Excommunicate their Brethren that agree in these ; or to divide , distract , or confound the Churches for the interest of their several Preeminences , or Provinces , which have no higher than humane authority , perhaps questionable , at least unquestionably below the authority of God , and null when it is against it . I am sure by the Church-History of all ages since Christ , the great divider of the Christian World hath been the Pride of a worldly ( too ignorant ) Clergy . 1. Striving who should be greatest . 2. Striving about ambiguous words . 3. Imposing unnecessary things by their Authority upon the Churches ; to be ignorant of this , is impossible to me when once I have read the History of the Church ; which warneth me what to suspect as the causes of our distractions ; for the things that had been , are . And how unexcusable these three evils are , and how contrary to Christ , these Texts do tell me : I. Luk 22.24 , 25 , 26 1 Pet. 5.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. 1 Cor. 3.5 , 6 , 7 , 22. 2 Cor. 1.24 . II. 2 Tim. 2.14 , 16 , 23 , 24 , 25. 1 Tim. 1.4 , 5 , 6. III. 2 Cor. 11.3 . Act. 15.28 . Revel . 2.24 , 25 , Mat. 15.8 , 9. Rom. 14 , & 15 , throughout . To tell you , that I am not only as you say , on the destructive part , I have thus told you briefly what I assert as the way to peace . And now I shall destructively tell you why I differ from your Principles as truly destructive of truth , unity and peace . Some of the Principles which I have heard from your mouth , which I dissent from , are these : I. That the Church must have some Ecclesiastical Governours that are absolute , from whom no man may appeal to an invisible Power . II. That Diocesan Churches are the first in order of Divine Institution ▪ III. That Diocesan-Bishops by consent may make other Church-forms , as National , Patriarchal , &c. And that such Churches are not made by Princes , but by the consent of Prelates . IV. That these Church-forms of mans making , stand in a Governing Superiority over those of Gods making . V. That where by such consent of Diocesans such superior Jurisdictions are once setled , it is a sin for any to gather Assemblies within the local bounds of their Jurisdiction without their consent . VI. That you cannot see how those that do so , can be saved . VII . That if I preach on the account of my Ministerial office , and the peoples necessity , to such as else would have no Preaching , nor any publick worship of God , ( e. g. in a Parish where there are 40000 more than can hear in the Parish-Church ) , though I must conclude that according to the ordinary way of Salvation such could not be brought to Faith , Holiness and Salvation , for want of teaching , it is yet my sin to preach to them , and my duty to let them rather be damned , if I have not the Bishops consent to teach them ; and that because it is the Bishop and not I that shall answer for their damnation . VIII . That it is disputable with you whether those to whom Church power is given ( viz. Diocesans ) may not change ( not only the local temporary circumstances , but ) the very Church-forms , and suspend Laws of Christ. IX . That Baptism entreth the Baptized into some particular Church , and consequently under this fore-described Church-Government . X. That in the case of Preaching the Gospel , Ministers may in many cases do it , though Emperours and Kings forbid them , ( as in the days of Constantius , Valens , yea and better men ) ; but not if the Bishop forbid them , or consent not . XI . That circa Sacra , if the King command the Churches for Uniformity , one Translation of the Bible , one Version or Meter of the Psalms , one Liturgy , one Time , or Place of Worship , &c. and the Bishop another , we ought to obey the Bishop against the command of the King. XII . That the required Subscriptions , Declarations , Rubricks and Canons , are primarily the Laws of the Church , which the King and Parliament do confirm by their Sanction ; and therefore the Church is the Expounder of them . These are some of your Assertions , which I cannot yet receive . I. My Reasons against the first are these : 1. Because this maketh Gods of men , and so is Idolatry , giving them Gods proper Power and Prerogative . 2. Yea , it taketh down God ( or his Laws ) , and setteth them above him : For there cannot be two Absolute Governors that have not one Will. If I must not appeal from them to God , then I must appeal from God to them ; that is , I must break his Law , if they bid me , or else they are not Absolute . 3. This maketh all Gods Laws at the will of ma● , as alterable , or dispensible : Man may forbid all that God commandeth , and I must obey . 4. Then all Villanies may be made Virtues , or Duties , at the will of man : If they command us to curse God , or Blaspheme , or be perjured , or commit Fornication , Murder , or Idolatry , it would become a Duty . 5. Then the Power , and Lives of Kings would be at the Clergies mercy ; For if their power be Absolute , they may make Treason and Rebellion a Duty . 6. And all Family-Societies , and Civil Converse , migbt be overthrown , while an Absolute Clergy may disoblige men from all duty to one another . 7. Then the Council at Lateran , which you have excellently proved in your Considerations , to be the Author of its Canons , doth , or did oblige Princes to exterminate their Reformed Subjects , and disoblige Subjects from their Allegiance to Princes that obey not the Pope herein , and are excommunicate . So of Greg. 7 th's Council . Rom. 8. Then did the Church , or Kingdom of England well , to disobey , or forsake the Roman Power , that was over them ? 9. Were not our Martyrs rather Rebels , that died for disobeying an Absolute Power ? 10. How should two contradicting Absolute Powers ( viz. General Councils ) be both obeyed ? E. g Nicen. 1. and Arimini ▪ Sirm. and Tyr. or Ephes. 2 and Calced ▪ 11. How will this stand with the Judgment and practice of the Apostles , that said , Whether it be meet that we obey God , or man , judg ye ? 12. How will it stand with Conformity to the Church of England , that in the Articles saith , that General Councils may err , and have erred in matter of Faith ? &c. 13. Is it not against the sense of all mankind , even the common Light of Nature , where utter Atheism hath not prevailed ? Say not , that I wrong you , by laying all this odium on your self . I lay it but on your words : And I doubt not , but ( though disputing Interest draw such words from you ) on consideration you will re-call them by some limitations . II. My Reasons against your second , must pre-suppose , that we understand one another as to the sense of the word , Diocesan Church , which being your ●erm , had I been with you , I must have desired you first to explain . The word , Diocess of old , you know , signified a part of the Empire , larger than a Province , and that had many Metropolitans in it . I suppose that is not your sense . Sometimes now it is taken for that space of ground which we call , a Diocess ; sometimes for all the people in that space . And with us , a Diocesan Church , is a Church of the lowest Order , containing in it , a multitude of fixed Parochial Congregations , which have every one their stated Presbyter , who is no Bishop , and Vnum altare , and are no Churches , but parts of a Church , and which is individuated by one Bishop , and the measuring-space of ground , whose inhabitants are its Members . Till you tell me the contrary , I must take this for your sense ; For you profess to me , that you speak of such Diocesan Churches as ours ( and they have some above a thousand , others many hundred Parishes ) , and you say our Parishes are not Churches , but Parts of a Church , and so Families are . 2. Either you mean , that a Diocesan Church is the first in order of Execution and Existence , or else in order of Intention , and so last in Existence and Execution . I know not your meaning , and therefore must speak to both . I. That a Diocesan Church is first in Intention , is denied by me , and disproved ( though it belong to you to prove it ) . 1. Intentions no where declared of God in mature or supernatural Revelations , are not to be asserted of him as Truths . But a prime intention of a Diocesan Church is no where declared of God : Ergo , not to be asserted of him as truth . 2. It is the end or ultimum rei complementum , which is first in intention ( where there is ordo intentionis . ) But a Diocesan Church is not the end or ultimum rei complementum : Ergo , not first intended . The Major is not deniable : The Minor hath the consent as far I as know , of all the world . For they are all either for the Hierarchy , or against it . They that are for it , say that a Metropolitan is above a Diocesan , and a Provincial above a Metropolitan , and a Patriarchal above a Provincial , and a National ( which hath Patriarchs , as the Empire had ) above that ; and ●ay the new Catholicks , an humane universal above a National Church , as the complement or perfection ; and therefore must be first intended . But those that are against the Hierarchy , think that all these are Church-corruptions , or humane policies set up by Usurpation , and therefore not of prime Divine Intention . 3. If you should go this way , I would first debate the question with you , how far there is such a thing as ordo intentionis to be ascribed to God. For though St. Thomas ( as you use to call him ) assert such intentions , it is with many limitations ; and others deny it , and all confess that it needeth much Explication to be understood . II. But if it be a priority of Existence in order of execution . that you mean , it disproveth it self . For , 1. It is contrary to the nature of production , that two , or twenty , or an hundred stated Congregations , should be before on t ; as it is that I should write a page before a line , and a line before a word , and a word before a letter . 2. It is contrary to the Scripture-History , which telleth us that Christ called his Disciples by degrees , a few first , and more after ; and that the Apostles accordingly converted men ; from the number of 120 , they rose to 3000 more ; and after to 5000 , &c. And that ordinarily the Churches in Scripture-times were such as could , and often did meet in one place , ( though that be n●t necessary as I said before ) hath so copious evidence , as that I will not here trouble you with it . 3. Either the Apostles Ordained Bishops before subject Presbyters , or such Presbyters before Bishops , or both at once . If both at once as two Orders , it 's strange that they called both Orders promiscuously by the same names , sometimes Bishops , sometimes Presbyters , and sometimes Pastors and Teachers , without any distinguishing Epithete or notice . And it 's strange that we never find any mention of the two sorts of Congregations , one the Bishops Cathedral , and the other the Parish Presbyters Congregation . If you say that they were the Bishops themselves , and first Ordained only subject-Presbyters under them , that cannot hold . For doubtless there were more than twelve or thirteen Churches ( the number of Apostles in their times ; nor were they fixed Bishops , but indefinite gatherers and edifiers of the Churches . And either those Elders first Ordained by the Apostles were Bishops , or else there were Churches without Bishops , for they Ordained Elders in every City , and in every Church . And either the Elders first Ordained by the Apostles had the power of Ordaining others , or not . If they had , then either they were Bishops , or else subject-Presbyters were Ordained to be Ordainers ; yea to Ordain Bishops ( if such were to be after ordained . ) And so indeed it would be suitable to your concei● , that the inferiour order of Diocesans do by consent make superior Metropolitans , Provincials , Nationals , and Patriarchs to rule them ; and with Hieromes report ad Evagr. that the Alexandrian Presbyters made the Bishops , as the Army doth a General . But this making of Children to beget Fathers , is so commonly denied , that I need not more dispute against it . 3 ▪ But I think most of the Hierarchical way will say , that the Apostles first Ordained Bishops , that those Bishops might Ordain subject-Presbyters . And if so , the Churches could be but single Congregation at the first till the subject-Presbyters were Ordained Yea , Dr. Hammond ( as aforesaid ) asserteth ( in Act. 11. and in Dissert . &c. ) that there is no proof there were any of the Order of subject-Presbyters in Scripture-times ; and he thinketh that most of his party were of his mind ; and that the name Bishop , Elder and Pastor in Scripture signifie only those that we now call Bishops . And in this he followeth Dion . Petavius , and Fr. a Sancta Clara de Episcop . who saith that it came from Scotus . And if this be so , then in all Scripture-times there was no Church of more than one worshipping Congregation . For we are agreed that Church-meetings were for the publick Worship of God , and celebration of Sacraments , and exercise of Discipline , which no meer Lay-man might lawfully guide the people in , and perform as such assemblies did require . And one Bishop could be but in one place at once . And if there were many Bishops , there were many Churches . So that according to Dr. Hammond and all of his mind , there was no Church in Scripture-times of more than one stated ordinary Worshipping Congregation , because there were no subject-Presbyters . If you say that yet this was a Diocesan Church , because it had a Diocesan Bishop ; I answer , why is he called a Diocesan Bishop if he had not a Diocesan Church ? If you mean that he was designed to turn his single Congregation into many by increase : 1. That must not be said only , but proved . 2. And that supposeth that his one congregation was first before the many . And I hope you ●ake not Infidels for parts of the Church , because they are to be converted hereafter . Those that are no members of the Church make not the Church , and so make it not to be Diocesan . One Congregation is not an hundred or a thousand , because so many will be hereafter . If you mean that such a space of ground was assigned to the Bishops to gather and govern Churches in . I answer , 1. Gathering Churches is a work antecedent to Episcopacy . 2. The Ground is no part of the Church . It is a Church of men , and not of soil and houses that we speak of . 3. Nor indeed will you ever prove that the Apostles measured out or distinguished Churches by the space of ground . So that the first Churches were not Diocesan . III. As to your Third Opinion , 1. Officers are denominated from the work which they are to do . There are works to be done , circa sacra , about the holy Ministerial works , as Accidental : as to 〈◊〉 to Church buildings , Utensils , and Lands , to Summon Synods , and Register their Acts ; to moderate in disputations , and to take votes , &c. These the Magistrate may appoint Officers to pe●●orm ; and if he do not , the Churches , by his permission , may do it by consent . And there are works proper to the Magistrate , viz. to force men to their duty by mulcts , or corporal penalties . I deny none of these . But the works of Ordination , Pastoral Guidance , Excommunication and Absolution , by the power of the Keys , are proper to the sacred Office , which Christ hath instituted . And I shall not believe , till I see it proved , that any men have power to make any new Order , or Office of this sort , which Christ never made by himseelf , or his Spirit in his Apostles ; much less that Inferiors may make Superior Offices : For 1. It belongeth to the same power to make one ( especially the Superior ) Church-Office , which made the other of the same General nature . If without Christs institution , no man could be Episcopus gregis , and have the power of the Keys over the people , then by parity of Reason , without his institution no man can be Episcopus Episcoporum , and have the power of the Keys over the Bishops . 2. Dr. Hammond's argument against Presbyters Ordination is , Nemo dat quod non habet ; which though it serve not his turn on several accounts ( both because 1. They have the Order which they confer . 2. Because Ordination is not giving , but Ministerial delivery by Investiture ) ; yet in this case it will hold ; For 1. This is supposed to be a new institution of an Office. 2. And that of an higher power than ever the Institutors had themselves : The King giveth all his Officers their power , but all of them cannot give the King his power . The Patriarch cannot make a Pope , nor the Metropolitans a Patriarch , that shall have a power over them , which they never had themselves . And what I say of Superior Orders , and Offices , I say of Synods ; For whether the power be Monarchica● , or Aristocratical , or Democratical , there is need of the same power in the Cause that maketh it : No man can give that which he hath not to give . If you should fly to such popular Principles , as the Episcopal Champion , Richard Hooker , doth , and the Jesuites in their Politicks , and many ; yea , most other Writers of Politicks , and say , That as the people are the givers of power to the Soveraign , though they are no Governours themselves , so the Bishops give power to the Episcopi Episcoporum ( personal , or Synodical ) , I answer , The Principle is false about Civil Policy , as I have proved against Mr. Hooker , in my Christian Directory , and as Dr. Hammond hath proved in the Kings Cause , against Iohn Goodwin . The power every man hath over himself , doth so specifically differ from the power of Governing-Societies , that the latter is not caused by all mens Contribution of the former ; and much more in Church-Government , which God hath left less the Will of man ( as Mr. Dan. Cawdr●y hath proved ) . To conclude , I grant the Superiority of Magistrates , and of their Officers , circa sacra , but not that Inferior Clergy-men may by consent , make a Superior Species of Rulers ( or Episcopos Episcoporum ) by the Keys , in eodem genere . But I confess , that how far Christ himself hath made Apostolick Successors , or Archbishops , as to the ordinary part of governing many Churches , is a question to me of much more difficulty , and moment . As for the Patriarchal , and other Superior Church-power in the Roman Empire , that it was made partly by the Emperors themselves ( as the instances of the two Iustiniana's , and many others shew ) , and partly by Councils , Authorized thereto by the Emperors , is past all doubt . IV. As to your fourth Opinion , I include the reason of my denial of it , in the description of it . Whether you confess particular worshipping Churches , that have each unum altare , to be of Divine Institution , I cannot tell : but that you take the Diocesan to be so Divine , you have told me ; and that you take the Superior Ruling-Churches , to be made by them . Now that Churches of mans making ( Universal , or National , or Patriarchal , &c ) should be the rightful Governors ( by the Keys ) over the Churches of Gods making , must be either jure Divino , or humano : not jure humano ; For 1. Man cannot give the power of the Keys without God. 2. And mans grant cannot over top Gods. Indeed there is no power but of God. 2. Not jure divino ; For if God give them the power , God maketh that Species that containeth that power . For God not to make the Office , and not to give the power , is all one . 3. At least , what satisfying proof you will give us , that indeed God giveth power to Church-Officers of his own making , themseves to make nobler superior Officers or Churches than themselves , I cannot foresee . And till it 's proved , it is not to be believed . 4. Yea it confoundeth the Inferiours and the Superiors . For the Diocesans are so far the Superiors to the Provincial , National , Patriarchal , &c. in that they make them ▪ or give them their power , and yet inferior in that they are to be subjects to them . More Nonconformists do deny the power of men to make new Species of Churches , and Church Rulers , than their power to make new Ceremonies . V. Your next mention'd Opinion , ( that it is a sin to preach and congregate people within the local bounds of Diocesan or Provincial , or other superior Jurisdictions without their consent ) falleth of it self , if those foregoing fall , which it is built upon . 1. If it prove true that they that made these superior Jurisdictions had no power to make them , but gave that which they had not to give , then your foundation faileth . 2. If it be proved that neither Christ nor his Apostles ever made a Law that Bishops Jurisdictions shall be limited , measured and distributed by space of ground , as our Parishes and Diocesses are , so that all in such a compass shall be proper to one Pastor , much less did ever divide our Diocesses or Parishes ; ( which me thinks none should deny ) then Preaching in that space of ground is no sin against such an Order of Christ. 3. If it be proved ( as I undertake to do ) that this distribution by spaces of ground , is a work that the King and his Officers are to do , ( or the Churches by his permission by way of contract , if he leave it to them ) , and this in obedience to Gods General Laws ( of Order , Peace , Concord and Edification ) , then these things will follow , 1. That if the King give us Licenses to Preach within such a space of ground , we have good Authority , and break not the restraining Law : And yet such as you accused us of schism as well when the King Licensed us , as since . 2. That this Law of local bounds doth bind us but as other humane Laws do ; which is , say many Casuists , not at all out of the case of scandal , when they make not for the bonum publicum . But say others more safely , not when they notoriously make against , 1. Either the bonum publicum , which is finis regiminis : 2. Or the general Law of God which must authorize them , ( being against edification , peace , &c. ) 3. When they are contrary to the great , certain and indi●pensible Laws of God himself . And that in such cases patient suffering the penalty which men inflict is instead of obedience to the prohibition , ( and as in Daniels case , Dan. 6 and ●he Apostles , &c. ) Therefore I am 〈…〉 to give you , 1. My Concessions in what cases it 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 the Magistrate in Preaching where he forbiddeth 〈◊〉 . 2. 〈◊〉 in what cases it is a great duty . But to say that it is a sin because that the Clergy forbiddeth it , must have better proof ●●an I have seen , even , 1. That such Clergy-men are truly called by God. 2. And that they have from him the assignation of this space of ground . And 3. are by him empowered to forbid all others to preach on their land . 4. And that even when Gods general Laws do make it our duty , that they can suspend the obligation of such Laws , even the greatest : I am ready upon any just occasion to prove to you , that I were a heinous sinner , if I should have ceased such Preaching as I have used upon all the reasons that you alledg against it . And wo to them that make our greatest and dearest duties to pass for sin , and our greatest sin , Isa. 5.20 . Were it but one of the least commands , I would be loth to break it , and teach men so to do , much less one of the greatest ; when men whose consciences tell them , that they are totally devoted to God ; as Christians and as Ordained Ministers , deny their worldly interest and preferments , and serve him in poverty , beholden for their daily bread , and to the ruin of their worldly Estates , and the hazard of their lives in the Common Goals , endeavour nothing but to Preach Christs Gospel to save mens souls from ignorance , unbelief , sensuality , worldliness , &c. in case of the peoples undeniable necessity ; I say , when such meet with men of the same profession , who think not the Common Goals among Rogues , and the forfeiture of Forty pound a Sermon , as Enacted by Law , to be enough to restrain them , but also as in the name of Christ they will charge us with heinous sin unless we will perfidiously break our obligations to Christ , and sacrilegiously alienate our selves from the work which we are devoted to ( many of us under the Bishops hands ) and unless we will be cruel to miserable souls , and shut up the bowels of our compassion from them , while we see them in need and in danger of damnation , what fortitude do we need against such kind of Tempters , and such Temptations ? If Drunkards and boys in the street only scorn'd me as a Puritan , or Precisian , it were less . If Turkish Rulers did persecute me for my Preaching Christ , it were less . If mistaken Christian Rulers made me the scorn of the Nation , and stript me of all my worldly maintenance , and laid me with Malefactors in Prisons , it were a less temptation , than for a man to come in the name of Christ , to tell me that I sin against him , unless I will forsake my Calling , break my Vows , cease Preaching his Gospel , betray thousands of souls to Satan and damnation , and encourage all that endeavour it by yielding to all their temptations , and giving them success . But as Christ must be accused of sin , as well as crucified , and not allowed the honour of suffering as innocent , so must his servants . I will venture upon one argument on the by that may be somewhat by others , though nothing to you for the invalidating of your accusation . I saw from the hands of a Noble Lord , an excellent truly Learned Manuscript said by him to be the Bishop of Lincolns , to satisfie you who are said to judg it unlawful to subscribe to Athanasius's Creed . What else you refuse I know not ; but by that much I perceive you are a strange kind of Nonconformist . Now if it be unlawful for you to subscribe and conform , or unlawful for me , ( which I here undertake to prove before any equal competent Judges ) then it is unlawful for all the Ministers of England ; for none of them may do evil that good may come by it . And then all the Ministers in England ought to cease Preaching , if I ought to cease , when they are forbidden . The consequence will be denied by others , though not by you . ( And by the way , How can you take the Bishops for Absolute , from whom there is no appeal to an invisible power , and yet disobey them , if they bid you subscribe Athanasius Creed . ) If it be a sin in me not to cease Preaching when I am silenced for Nonconformity , and yet Nonconformity be a duty , then it is a sin in all the Ministers of England not to be Nonformists , and so not to cease Preaching . But the latter part of the consequent is false : Ergo , so is the Antecedent . 2. Yea , directly your assertion puts it in the power of one superior to put down the Preaching of the Gospel , and all Gods publick Worship , in whole Countries or Kingdoms , ( if not in the world ) , and so Christ must be at their mercy whether he shall have any Church , and so whether he shall be Christ ; and God , whether he shall have any publick Worship In Ethiopia ( though Brierwood saith that yet after the decay of the Abassine Empire , it is as big as Italy , Germany , France and Spain ) they have but one Bishop , called their Abuna And if he forbad all Preaching or publick Worship in the Empire , it is a sin to obey him . And it is a great duty to gather Churches within his Church . It is a sin in the Empire of Muscovie , that all their Clergy obey their Patriarch and Prince in forbearing to Preach . If all the Bishops of England should agree to reduce the Kingdom to one only Bishoprick , and one Church , and turn all the rest into Parish-Chappels , it were a duty to disobey them , and gather Churches in that one Church . If the Patriarch of Alexandria , Antioch , or Constantinople , had forbidden all in their limits to Preach and worship God publickly , it had been a wickedness to obey them . When Severus Antioch , the Eutychian , forbad the Orthodox to Preach in his Patriarchate , it had been their sin to obey him , ( yea or if Theodosius or Anastasius the Emperours had done it ) : yea , though a General Council of Ephes. 2. ( if not Ephes. 1. ) was on his side . If the Pope ( whether as Pope or as Patriarch of the West ) , Interdict all the Preachers and Churches in Venice , or in Britain , it were a sin to obey him . The reasons are , because their power is derived and limited ( to pass by the no power of Usurpers ) the greatest have it for edification , and not for destruction . None of them have power to make void the least ( continued ) Law of God by their Doctrines , Precepts or Traditions . All men must take heed of the leven of their false Doctrine , and must beware of false Prophets , and must prove all things , and hold fast that which is good . There is no true power but of God , and therefore none against him . It is better to obey God than men . But of this you may in season have larger proof , if you desire it . VI. Your excluding us from Salvation , that will not cease Preaching the Gospel of Salvation , and worshipping God , remembreth us : 1. What a mercy it is that neither Pope , nor any such condemner is made our final Judg. 2. How most Sects agree ( Papists , Quakers , &c. ) in damning those that dance not after their Pipe. 3. What various wiles of temptations Satan useth to hinder Christs Gospel , and mens Salvation . At once I have , 1. A backward flesh , that is the worst of all , that saith , Favour thy self , and expose not thy self to all this labour , obloquie , hatred , suffering , loss and danger of death for nothing , but that work which thy superiours think needless , and forbid . 2. I feel Satan setting in with the flesh , and saying the same . 3. Carnal and worldly friends say the same ( as Peter to Christ , Mat. 16. ) 4. Displeased Sinners and Sectaries wish me silent . 5. What Superiors say and do , I need not mention . 6. And to perfect all , some Preachers in Press and Pulpit , and you in Discourse , declare us in danger of damnation , as Schismaticks , unless we will give over Preaching the Gospel . O how easie were it to me to avoid that damnation ! And if I incur it , how dearly do I purchase it ! It is a sad case that such poor souls as we are in , that would fain know Gods will whatever study or suffering it cost us , and after our most earnest search and prayers , believe that if we forsook our trust , and office , and the peoples souls , we should be judged as sacrilegious , perfidious hypocrites , and yet we are told by wiser and greater men , that our labours and sufferings do but damn us ; may not a man be damned at a cheaper rate than Forty pound a Sermon , or the loss of all his worldly Estate , and lying with malefactors , and perhaps dying in a Goal , under the published sacred infamy of being Schismaticks and enemies of the publick Government and peace , & c ? But this also we must be fortified against . For Satan is sometime utterly impudent , and will say , Damn your selves by perfidiousness , and let the people be damned quietly , or else you shall be damned for Schismaticks . But the long noise of damning Papists and Quakers have somewhat hardned or emboldened us . It was an early trick , Act. 15. Except ye be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses , ye cannot be saved . When lands and livings will not prevail ; when profit , pleasure and honour fail ; when poverty , reproach and prisons will not serve , then comes , You cannot else be saved . How many Sects say , Say as we say , and do as we do , and follow us , or you cannot be saved ? But saith St. Paul , It is a small thing with me to be judged of man , or at mans day : I have one that judgeth me , even the Lord , ( to whom we will appeal whatever you say against it . ) But you must give me leave to think , that to draw men from their great duty , and the saving souls , to heinous sin , as in the name of Christ , and to frighten men into Hell with the fear of damnation , and the abused Word of God , hath heinous aggravations , which enticing men by sensuality to drunkenness , whoredom or theft , hath not . VII . To the next , the matter of fact , and antecedent Suppositions cannot be denied , viz. 1. That it is probably supposed that there are inhabitants more than can hear the Preachers voice in the Parish-Churches , in Martins Parish about 40000 , in Stepney Parish near as many , in Giles Cripplegate 30000 , in Giles in the Fields near 20000 , in Sepulchres , Algate , White-chappel , Andrews Holborn , and many other Out-Parishes very many thousands . The last Bill of Mortality that I saw , saith there died in Stepney Parish as many wanting one , as in all the Ninety-seven Parishes of London , and in Martins as many within six , and in Giles Cripplegate as many within eight , or thereabout . 2. How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe if they hear not ? and how shall they hear without a Preacher ? If the Gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost : Where Vision faileth , the people perish , even for lack of knowledg . 3. Yet people by our Church Laws must be presented and prosecuted as Recusants if they come not to Church , and so 40000 or 30000 should be presented and punished for want of room ; but it is a greater punishment to be strangers unto the Gospel . 4. The Canon forbiddeth them going to , and communicating in other Parishes , and forbiddeth the Ministers to receive them . 5. The Children of Christians are born with no more knowledg than the children of Heathens ; and need teaching as well as theirs , to bring them to knowledg when they grow up . 6. God will not save any adult person that is an Infidel , impenitent , unsanctified , because he is bred up among Christians , and Churches , or born of Christians , and Baptized ; but it will go worse with such unholy persons in the day of Judgment , that have had the greatest means . 7. If you can cast the fault on the people , and say that they might remove their dwellings , or ( break the Law , and ) go to other Parishes , or read at home , &c. that excuseth us not . For the worse they are , the more need they have of help . If they were faultless , what need had they of us ? 8. As to my own case whom you condemn , I have told you , that I have the Ordination of a Bishop , and the License of the Bishop of this Diocess ( not nulled or recalled ) which by your principles one would think might serve if it had been against Gods own Laws . And yet Gods Law and the Bishops License will not serve . 9. Some other may say , What 's your case to many others ? I answer : To pass by a great deal not now to be said , Let it be understood that the case is this . Men are first silenced and excommunicated , and so forbidden the publick Churches , and all publick worship of God ; and then the Excommunicate are prosecuted and accused for not coming to Church . Divers Canons do ipso facto ( that is , sine sententiâ ) excommunicate all that do but say that any thing in the Liturgy or Discipline is unlawful , or may not be done with a good conscience ( which all Nonconformists hold ) . And it is not possible for us to repent of that as a wicked Error , which after all means that we can possibly use , appeareth unto us an undoubted truth , that so our Excommunication may be taken off . Now these silenced men are assured , that God disobligeth them not from the duty of Preaching ; and these excommunicate men are assured that God doth not disoblige them from the duty of publick worship and Church-communion . Therefore they must use it as they can , when they may not use it as they would . Men say the Papists should not call us Schismaticks , because they cast us out , and went from us ; and will you silence and excommunicate men , as they undertake to prove , for obeying God , and then call them Schismaticks for not communicating with you , or for worshipping God in such Church-communion as they can ? Indeed many of us communicate with you , because we think not our selves bound , tho' you excommunicate us ipso facto , to do execution on our selves , or to go further from you than necessity compelleth us ( tho' I must profess that Cyprians 68. Epistle , p. 200. and St. Martin's Separation from the Bishops , confirmed by Miracle , sometimes sticks in my stomack ) . But I cannot make so light as you do , 1. Of such Texts as 2 Tim. 4.1 , 2. I cha●g● thee before God , and the Lord Iesus Christ , who shall judg the quick and the dead at his appearing , and his kingdom , preach the word , be instant in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long-suffering and doctrine . 2. Nor of the murderous famishing of thousands of souls , when to murder one child by famine deserveth death and hell . 3. Nor of Christs Law of preferring Mercy before Sacrifice , necessary Morals before Rituals , Circumstantials or Ordinals , which are all but propter rem ordinatam . I remember you have told me , That if the Bishop forbad all Gods publick worship in the Assemblies , we must forbear . Such sayings , and this , That I must let so many souls be untaught though they be damned , because it is the Bishops fault and not mine , do make me ready to tremble to think of them . If Christs works be saving , whose work is it to make so light of mans damnation ? Is it any wonder if such Principles be called Antichristian ? I cannot but perceive from whom they come , when the damnation of poor people must be so easily submitted to , if the Bishop do but command the means . Methinks you wrong the Bishops by such odious Suppositions and Assertions , as if you would make men believe that they are the Grievous Wolves that spare not the flock , and the thorns and thistles that are made to prick and rend the people . But I believe that the Bishops faultiness in mens damnation would be no exeuse to me if I be accessory . 4. And I doubt not but if you unjustly ipso facto Excommunicate men , it neither depriveth them of the right , nor absolveth them from the duty of publick Worship , and Church-Communion . And I am ashamed to read and hear Preachers publickly reproaching them for not holding constant Communion with the Parish-Churches , when it 's notorious that the Canon hath thus Excommunicated them , yea though it were their duty sometime to intrude . And I beseech you judg as a Christian or a man , whether you can think such Arguments should draw the people themselves to be of your mind : Go to them and speak out , Neighbours , I confess that while you live in ignorance and sin for want of teaching and publick worship , you are in the way to damnation ; but it is the Bishop , and not the silenced Preacher that shall answer for it . Will they not reply , And shall not the Bishop then he damned instead of us , as well as instead of the silenced Preacher ? VIII . Your doubt about mens power to change Christs setled form of Church-government , is but a consequent of your first , of mens absolute power . But 1. if they change Gods Laws , or instituted Church-forms or Government , may they not change their own ? And if so , there is some hope of a Reformation . But why then did the Canons of 1640. in the Et caetera Oath , swear the Clergy never to consent to change ? And why are we now to swear in the Oxford Oath , That we will never endeavour any alteration of Church-Government ( tho' the keys be in the power of Lay-Chancellors , and tho' the King may command us to endeavour it ) must the Nation or Clergy swear never ( in their own places ) to endeavour any alteration of the Bishops Institutions ( as you take them ) , and yet may the Bishops alter the very Form of Government , and Churches made by our Universal King ? 2. What an uncertain mutable thing may Christs Laws or Church-Government prove , while mutable men may change it at their pleasure . 3. To what purpose is Antiquity and Tradition so much pleaded by Hierarchical Divines , as if that were the Test to know the right Government and Church , if the Bishops may alter it ? 4. If thus much of Christs Laws and Institutions may be altered by Prelates , how shall we be sure that all the rest is not also at their will and mercy ? or which is it that they may alter , and which not ? 5. Doth not this set man so far above God , or equal with him , as will still tempt men to think that more are Antichristian than the Pope ? If you say that it is by Gods own grant , I wait for your proof , that God granteth power to any man above his Laws : Those that he made but Local or Temporary himself , are not abrogated or changed by man where they bind not ; for they never bound any but their proper subjects , e. g. The Iewish Laws , as such , never bound the Gentile world ; and the command of washing feet , bound only th●se where the use of going bare-leg'd with Sandals in a hot Country , made it an office of kindness ; and so of other Temporary precepts . 6. How contrary is this to the common Christian Doctrine , that we must obey none that command us to sin against God ? For by the first assertion , and this , it seemeth that it cannot be a sin which the Bishops command . 7. I pray you put in an exception for the Power and Lives of Kings , and the Laws of the Land , and the Property and Liberty of the Subjects ; and one word for the Protestant Religion . For we English-men think God to be greater than the King , or St. Patrick ; and Gods Laws to be firmer than the Statutes of King and Parliament . And yet I doubt that the King and some Parliament will be angry if you do but say that the Bishops by consent may change their Statutes , or lawful Officers and Powers ; And Bishops , if you say that Episcopacy may be changed . IX . Baptism , as such , entereth not the Baptized into any particular Church , but only into the Vniversal , headed by Christ ; yet a man may at the same time ; be entered into the Vniversal , and into a particular Church , but that is by a double consent , and not by Baptism as such . In this I know none that agree with you but some few of the Independents in New-England , and some of the Papists . I confess Bellarmine saith , That by Baptism we are virtually obliged to the Pope , being baptized by a Ministry , and into a Church , of which he is the Head. But the contrary is proved , 1. From the express form of the Baptismal Covenant , which only tyeth us to Christ and his Universal Church , and maketh us Christians . But to be a Christian dedicated to the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , is one thing , and to be a part of the Pastoral Charge of A. B. or N. N. is another thing . 2. What particular Church was the Eunuch , Act. 8. baptized into ? Not that of Ierusalem , for he was going from it , never like to see it more . Not that in Ethiopia , for there was none till he began it . If you say , of Philips Church : 1. I pray you , where was that ? 2. And how prove you it ? 3. Specially if it was Philip the Deacon that had no Church , being no Bishop . 3. May not men be baptized in Turkey , or among other Infidels , or Indians , where there is no Church ? And is the first baptized man among them , a Church himself ? Paul thanketh God that he baptized no more of the Corinthians , lest they should think that he baptized into his own name . And doth every Baptizer baptize to himself , or to his Bishop ? A man may baptize out of all Diocesses , or in another's . X. As to your next Assertion , I grant , that when a Bishop or a beggar speaketh the Commands of God , and a King speaketh against it , we must follow that Bishop or beggar , rather than the King , because this is but obeying God before men . But supposing that it is a thing indifferent , and but circa sacra , and not a proper part of the Agent Pastors Office , I confess to you , I will obey the King before the Bishop . 1. Because it is a thing that is under the Power of the King to command ; and if so , the King is the Supreme , and not the Bishop . 2. Bishops themselves are Subjects of the King , and owe him obedience . Therefore rule not over or before him in matters belonging to his Office. 3. Bishops are chosen by the King , ( for I suppose no man takes the Dean and Chapters choice for more than a Ceremony , that knoweth it ) ; if the King command me to Preach at one hour , or one place , and the Bishop at another , or to use for Uniformity such a Translation , Metre , Liturgy , Utensils , Garments , &c and the Bishops others , I will obey the King before the Bishop . But if either or both command me to sin , I will obey neither so ; and if they would take me off from that which Christ hath made a real part of my own Office ( as commanding that I shall preach and pray in no words but such as they prescribe , &c. ) I think neither hath power to do this . But Bishop Bilson of Christian Obedience , and Bishop Andrews in his Tortura Toetis , and Buckeridg of Rochester , and Grotius de imprrio sum ▪ Potest . circa Sacra , have said so much of the Power of Kings about Religion , as that I think I need not add any more . And by the same Arguments that you will absolve me from obeying if the King forbid me to Preach , by the same you absolve , if the Bishop forbid me . If I may disobey Constantius and Valens , I may disobey Eusebius Nicomed . Theognis Maris . If I may disobey Theodosius junior , Anastasius , Zeno , Iustinian , I may disobey Petrus Moggus , Dioscorus , Severus , &c. But you will much cross your ●nds if you tell the Londoners that they may preach and worship God though the King forbid them , but not at all if the Bishop forbid them . For he that exalteth himself , or is sinfully exalted by others , shall be brought low . If the reverence of the King were not greater in England than of the Bishops , the consciences of many thousands would stick but little at disobedience . There are so many cases first to be resolved . As , 1. Whether such Diocesans deposing all Parochial Churches ( and Bishops ) and reducing them to Chappels or parts only of a Church , be not against Christs Law ? 2. Whether they destroy not the ancient order of particular Churches ( Bishops ) and Discipline ? 3. Who made their office , and by what power ? 4. Who chose and called them to it ? 5. Whether their Commands be not null , as contrary to Gods ? 6 ▪ How far Communion with them that silence hundreds of faithful Ministers , and set up in their stead — &c. is lawful ? Many such questions the people are not so easily satisfied in , as you are . XI . And the three last all set together , look with an ill design : The Preface to Dr. Rich. Cousins Tables , tells the King , That the Church-Government here is the Kings , or derived from him , and dependant on him ; and Grotius de Imperio sum ▪ potest . proveth at large the Power of Kings circa sacra , as doth Spalatensis , and many more ; and that Canons are but good counsel , till the King make them Laws . And we know no Law-makers but the King and Parliament . But if the Church be the Expounders of the Liturgy , Rubrick and Canons , Articles and Acts of Uniformity , and out of Convocation-time , the Bishops be the Church , and the Archbishops be the Rulers of the Bishops , ( that swear obedience to them ) this hath a dangerous aspect : For then it is in the power of the Bishops ( if not of the Archbishops only ) to put a sense upon our 39 Articles , Rubricks , &c. consistent with Popery or Heresie , and so to change the Religion of the Kingdom , without King or Parliament , or against them at their pleasure . And thus Officers of mans making , who become a Church of mans devising , may have advantage by this and the former Articles , to destroy Godliness , Christianity and Humanity . Indeed by the Preface to the Liturgy , the Bishop is made the Expounder of any thing doubtful in the Book ; and by the Index the Act of Uniformity is made part of the Book . But this affrighteth me the more from declaring : 1. Because I must consent to all the Penalties and Impositions of the Act it self . 2. And the Bishop , Exposition is limited , so that it must be contrary to nothing in the Book . Thus I have given you the reasons of my destructive Conference . If I had been with you , and we had been to enter upon any dispute that tendeth to satisfaction , I would have endeavoured to avoid the common frustraters of Disputes , 1. By ambiguous words : 2. And subjects that are no subjects : Therefore if you desire any such dispute : I. I intreat you to write me down your sense of some terms which we shall frequently use , ( and I will do the like of any at your desire ) : As what you mean , 1. By the word Bishop . 2. By a Church . 3. By a particular Church . 4. By a Diocess and Diocesan Church . 5. By a National Church . 6. By the Vniversal Church . 7. By Church Government and Iurisdiction . 8. By Schism . I shall dispute no terms unexplained , lest one take them in one sense , and the other in another , and so we dispute but about a sound of words . II. I desire that the denied Subject of the Question may not be taken for granted , instead of being proved . On these terms ( supposing the common Laws of Disputation , especially avoiding words that have no determinate sense ) I shall not refuse whenever you invite me ; and I am able to debate with you any of these points that I am concerned in ; especially , whether my Preaching Christs Gospel as I do , be my sin , or my duty ? And if our great distance in Principles put either of us upon r●●sons that seem dishonouring to the person opposed , we shall I hope 〈…〉 that it is the opinion only that is directly intended . But 〈…〉 opinion is the persons opinion , if it be bad , is a dish●n●●r , whi●● the owner only is guilty of , and the opponent ca●not 〈…〉 must not forbear to open the evil of the cause , for avoiding the dishonour of the owner ; but must the rather open it , in hope that the owner will disown it , when he understandeth truly what it is . For I suppose it is evidence of Truth that we desire . In Conclusion , remember I pray you , 1. That it is not the ancient Episcopacy ( which was in Cyprians days ; yea , which agreeth with Epiphanius's Intimations , and Petavius excellent Notes thereon , in Haeres . 69. ) which I deny . And I conjecture that at this day in England there are more Episcopal than Presbyterian silenced Non-conformists . 2. That what sort of Prelacy or higher Rulers I dare not subscribe to , yet I can live quietly and submissively under , though not obey them by sinning against God , or breaking my Vows of Baptism or Ordination , and perfidiously leaving souls to Satan . Nothing more threateneth the subversion of the Church-Government than swearing men to approve of all th●t's in it . Many can submit and live in peace , that dare not subscribe or swear Approbation . It was the & caet●ra Oath 1640 , that constrained me to th●se searches which 〈◊〉 me a Nonconformist . It is an easie ma●●er for Overdoers to add but a cla●se or two more to their Oaths and Subscriptions , which shall ma●e almost all the conscionable Ministers of the Kingdom Nonconformists . 3. Whenever notorious necessity ceaseth by the sufficient number and q●ality of Conforming Preachers , I will cease Preaching in England ( But death is liker first to silence me . ) Though I take my Conforming to be a Complex of heinous sins , should I be guilty of it ; yet till I am called , I perswade none to Nonformity for fear of casting them ( occasionally ) out of the Ministry , preferring their work before the change of their judgment till such endeavours are clearly made by duty . ) But all your endeavour , as far as ever I perceived , is not so much to draw us to Conformity , as to persuade us to give over Preaching Christs Gospel , so contrary are our designs . 1 Thes· 2.15 , 16. Methinks is a fearful Text. And so are the words of the Liturgy before the Sacrament , If any of you be a hinderer of Gods Word — repent — or take not this Sacrament , lest Satan enter into you , as he did into Judas , and fill you , &c. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A26860-e17060 This was written long ago . The Earl of Orery . ☜