An answer to the Amicable accommodation of the difference between the representer and the answerer Sherlock, William, 1641?-1707. 1686 Approx. 54 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A59789 Wing S3263 ESTC R37544 16970225 ocm 16970225 105556 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A59789) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 105556) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1159:2) An answer to the Amicable accommodation of the difference between the representer and the answerer Sherlock, William, 1641?-1707. 31 p. Printed for John Amery ... and William Rogers ..., London : MDCLXXXVI [1686] Attributed to Sherlock by Wing. "Imprimatur, July 22. 1686. Jo. Battely" An answer to "An amicable accomodation" by John Gother. Imperfect: stained, with loss of print. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Gother, John, d. 1704. -- An amicable accommodation. Jesus Christ. 2003-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-11 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-01 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2004-01 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Imprimatur , July 22. 1686. IO. BATTELY . AN ANSWER TO THE Amicable Accommodation OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE REPRESENTER AND THE ANSWERER . LONDON : Printed for Iohn Amery at the Peacock , and William Rogers at the Sun ; both against St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet . MDCLXXXVI . AN ANSWER TO THE Amicable ACCOMMODATION , Of the Difference between The Representer and the Answerer . IN Answer to the Reply to Papists protesting against Protestant Popery , our Author has amicably accommodated away the whole Book , excepting one word called Misrepresenting ; and therefore whereas he expects Ten sheets from me in return , I must be forced to compound with him for a much less number . We are likely at last to agree about the meaning of Misrepresenting , which is a very common word , and easily understood when men give their minds to it . Our Author Printed a double Character of a Papist Misrepresented and Represented ; the first being an accusation on Protestants for misrepresenting Papists ; I examined every part of his Character , and could not find why he called it Misrepresenting ; for it did not appear by his Characters , that we had charged them with any Doctrines or Practices ( excepting some few things ) but what they themselves owned . We charge indeed their Doctrines and Practices with such guilt as they do not own ; but this I told him did not properly belong to Representing but Disputing ; for while we agree about matters of fact , there is no Misrepresenting on either side , and then we are no otherwise Misrepresenters , than as all men are who condemn such Opinions and Practises , as others judge very true and innocent ; and thus Papists as much misrepresent Protestants , as Protestants misrepresent Papists ; that is , they equally differ from each other in their Opinions and judgments of the same things ; but who are truly the Misrepresenters , is not to be decided by Character-making , but by Reason and Argument . Well , our Accommodator is very willing out of civility and for the sake of peace , to yield this point , That the Title of a Papist Misrepresented , is not to be taken in its strict and proper sence , as Misrepresenting signifies downright Lying , or falsly charging of matter of fact ; but in its larger or less-proper sence , as it comprehends both Lying , Calumniating , Mis-interpreting , Reproaching , Mis-construing , Mis-judging , &c. which I confess is a very great piece of civility , that he will not charge us now with down right lying , but onely with Lying and Calumniating , and several other hard words into the bargain . There needs not many words about this matter , for the short of the case is this : In order to reconcile our people to the Church of Rome , he thought it necessary to perswade them , that Popery is quite another thing , than what they had been taught it is , which would at once remove their prejudices against Popery , and beget in them a great jealousie and suspicion of their former Teachers ; for men will not easily trust those who have once deceived them . In order to this , he gives us a double Character of a Papist ; one he calls the Character of a Papist Misrepresented , the other of a Papist Represented ; which any man would guess , should be two very different and contrary things ; the first what a Papist is not , the second what he is ; and yet , when we come to examine them , every thing almost , which can properly be called a Character , or Representing , is the same in both ; onely the Character of a Papist Misrepresented tells you , what opinion Protestants have of Popery , and the Character of a Papist Represented , tells us , what good thoughts Papists have of themselves , and their own Religion ; now whoever doubted , but that Papists and Protestants differ very much in their Opinions of Popery , as they do also in their Opinions of Protestancy . And this is the onely pretence for his charge of Misrepresenting , not that we charge them with believing or practising , what they do not believe or practice , but that we think worse of their Faith and Practice than he thinks they deserve . And if this be all that he means by Misrepresenting , we readily own the charge , that we have much worse thoughts of Popery than he has ; that we believe those Doctrines to be erroneous , and those Practises to be sinful , which he thinks very well of ; and because I am resolved , if possible , to be as civil as he is , in my Concessions , and not to dispute about words , I am contented he should call this misrepresenting , Lying , Calumniating , or what he pleases , if he can prove that we condemn their Faith or Worship unjustly ; onely he must remember , that this will engage him in a dispute , which he seems resolved not to engage in . For he must not think , that upon his bare word , we must be concluded guilty of that misrepresenting , which he calls Lying . He should have been very much afraid to accuse us of Lying , if he is resolved altogether to represent , and not to dispute : For certainly no wise man will give his Neighbour the lye , unless he be well prepared to prove it against him . Misrepresenting was a civil term , because honest men may through mistake misrepresent ; but Lying is the fault of Knaves , which as it deserves great punishment , so it ought not to be charged upon men without great proof , much less with none at all : And therefore he should not have taken up an obstinate humour against Disputing , just before he thought fit to charge us with Lying , but have remembred what M. de Meaux says in his Pastoral Letter , p. 29. Those who bear false and scandalous witness against an innocent person , are condemned to the same punishment which the Crime of which they bear witness did deserve had it been found true . But to clear my self as well as I can ; besides this , that I am not conscious to my self of any misrepresenting , I must tell him once more , that in a strict and proper sence , to misrepresent relates only to matter of fact , when we charge men with saying and doing what they never said or did , as our Accommodater confesses ; and in this sence I have already proved , that we are no Misrepresenters , and at last , if I understand him , he confesses that we are not ; but then he tells us , that to misrepresent , in a larger and less-proper sence , signifies also to put a false construction on things : As for instance , to say that to Worship Saints and Angels , and the Virgin Mary , as practised by the Church of Rome , is to give the Worship of God to Creatures ; and that their Image-Worship is what God has forbid in the second Commandment ; that their denying the Cup to the Laity is contrary to the institution of our Saviour , and their Latine Service is a very unreasonable Worship , and destructive of the edification of the Church , &c. Now though we do not charge them falsly in these cases as to matter of fact , for they do Worship Saints and Images , and deny the Cup to the Laity , and keep the Service of the Church in a Language unknown to the people , yet if through prejudice and neglect of due consideration , we should condemn these Practices as contrary to the Laws of God , and injurious to mens Souls , though they were not so . I grant even this may be called Misrepresenting , for 't is to call good evil , and evil good , light darkness , and darkness light ; and whoever is guilty of this kind of Misrepresentation , is guilty of a very great Sin , and does great mischief in the World , not by falsifying matters of Fact , but as much as in him lies , by changing the nature of things . And upon these terms the dispute of Misrepresenting may be easily accommodated : Let him plainly confess , that we are not Misrepresenters in the first sense ; that we do not falsly charge any Doctrines or Practices on the Church of Rome , which she disowns ; that we do not teach our People , that the Church of Rome believes or practices , otherwise than she does , and we will give him leave to call us Misrepresenters still , if he can shew that we charge their Doctrines or Practices with such guilt as they do not deserve . But it is by no means a sufficient answer to this Charge to call us Lyars , which for ought I can see , is all we are like to get in Answer from this man. Of all the several projects for ending Controversie , the most effectual that I ever yet heard of , is that which our Author hath set on foot : for he would now insinuate , that he has vindicated the Church of Rome from our Misrepresenting , not onely matter of Fact , but the guilt we charge them with upon those matters that are confessed by themselves . Now I have shewn him as well as I could , that some of their confessed Doctrines are false , and some of their confessed Practices are unlawful , and that their best Apologies for them are insufficient . What says the Accomodator to all this ? He answers , that all this is Misrepresenting , as that signifies Lying . But how the dispute should be carried on upon these Terms , otherwise then by giving him the Lye back again , I do not comprehend ? And therefore because neither true Religion , or good Breeding , will suffer me to carry on a Dispute at that rate , the Controversie should seem even upon this account to be at end ; and I give him joy of the honour that he is like to get by it . And yet I think an indifferent Reader may observe that his fastning the Lye upon us , for Misrepresenting them in the less-proper sense , as he pretends we do , is but an after-game to which he is reduced by the extremity of a bad Cause . The design of our Author in his Twofold Character of a Papist , was to perswade our People , that we were Misrepresenters in the first and most proper Sense ; that we had belyed the Church of Rome , with imputing such Doctrines to her , as she did not own ; and this all men , that ever I met with , understood to be the design of it : But since he cannot make good his Charge against us , he will now make good his Title of Misrepresenting in a less-proper Sense , not that we misreport the Doctrines and Practices of their Church , but that we unjustly condemn them ; and though we will rather allow him to call this Misrepresenting , than dispute about a word , yet if this be all he intended to acquaint the World , that Protestants think worse of Popery , than Papists do , it was a wonderful discovery ; and he took as notable a way to rectifie such mis-apprehensions . He disclaims all disputing , and thinks to confute Protestant Misrepresentations , by giving onely a true Character of a Papist , with reference to his Faith and Practice , out of the most authentick Records of their Church : Now if the Misrepresentation does not concern matter of Fact , but only mens judgments and opinions about such matters , how can a meer Character rectify such Misrepresentations ? When we know , what the Doctrine and Practice of the Church of Rome is , and yet think very ill of it ; Can the meer relating what the Doctrine and Practice of the Church of Rome is , cure our ill opinion of it ? And yet this is all the business of a Character to tell us , what a Papist is , which might indeed reconcile us to Popery , had we disliked Popery onely because we did not understand it , or took it to be something more formidable than it is , but cannot cure such dislikes as arise from a true understanding of Popery . He appeals to the Definitions of the Councils of Trent , and the Bishop of Condom's Exposition , &c. to vindicate Popery from the Misrepresentations of Protestants ; that is , to show us what the genuine Doctrines of Popery are : And how can this confute our Misrepresentations , unless by Misrepresenting he understood Misrepresenting matter of Fact , charging such Doctrines on their Church as were never decreed by their Councils , nor owned by their most authentick Expositors ? For the Authority of the Council of Trent is nothing to us , any otherwise than as we own it to be the Rule and Standard of the Romish Faith ; and therefore he can prove nothing against us out of the Council of Trent , but onely that those are not the Doctrines of the Church of Rome , which we say are , and this cannot confute Protestant Misrepresentations of Popery , unless our Misrepresentations consist in charging them with such Doctrines as their Church and Councils do not own . And therefore , though he is now willing to grant , that we are not Misrepresenters , as that signifies , down-right Lyers , who charge the Church of Rome with Believing and Practising what she does not , yet it is apparent , that this was what he intended in his Title of a Papist Misrepresented , to accuse Protestants of charging Papists with such Doctrines and Practices as they do not own ; and if this be not the intent and design of his Book , there is a great deal less Sense in it , then I thought there had been . For if by Misrepresenting he only meant , that we reproach and calumniate the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome , and charge them with such guilt as they do not deserve , not that we charge them falsly with such Doctrines and Practices as they do not own , ( as he now would have it ; ) though I grant this may be called Misrepresenting , if the charge be false , yet it is not such a Misrepresenting as is confuted only by a Character , or by true Representing ; it is wholly matter of Dispute , as I have often told him ; for he must not think that we Protestants shall believe ever the better of Popery , because he professes to believe very well of it , in his Character of a Papist Represented . If he will vindicate the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome from that guilt , which Protestants charge on it ; if he will justifie the Worship of Saints and Angels and Images , Transubstantiation , the Adoration of the Host , half Communion , Prayers in an Unknown Tongue , &c. and prove us to be Misrepresenters , he must quit his retreat of Character-making , and fairly dispute the points in question , which is the way the generous Advocates of the Church of Rome have always taken , to defend her , by the Authority of Scriptures , Fathers , Councils , and here we are ready to joyn issue with them . And thus , for ought I see , this Controversie is at an end , though he had not charged us with Lying ; for whatever he at first pretended , he grants now , that we are not in a strict and proper sence Misrepresenters ; and thus farewel to Character-making , since Papists and Protestants , who understand these matters are in the main agreed , what the Character of a Papist is , though they differ in their opinions about him , which can never be decided by Characters , but by Reason and Argument . And yet our Author , after all his pretences to an Amicable Accommodation , is unwilling the matter should end thus , at least unless we will acknowledge our selves very much beholden to his good nature for it : Why , what is the matter now ? Have I not plainly proved , that we are not Misrepresenters in the strict and proper notion of Misrepresenting ? That we do not charge the Church of Rome with any matter of Fact , with any Doctrines or Practices which she does not own ? And can we Misrepresent them , when we charge them with nothing that is false ; Yes , he says , my principle , that there can be no Misrepresenting , where there is an agreement in matter of fact , has more of the counterfeit in it than true standard ; is supposed to be certain , but without the support of Authority or Reason : That is , though we charge the Church of Rome with nothing but what she her self owns ; though we represent a Papist just as a Papist represents himself , as to his Faith and Practice , yet we may be Misrepresenters ; and then we may indeed be Misrepresenters for ought I know , if we may Misrepresent , when we say nothing but what is true . If he can make good this , I must acknowledge him to be a man of Art ; and therefore shall briefly examine how he proves it . He says , Misrepresenting seems to stand in opposition to Representing , and proper Representing being nothing more , than the describing or shewing a thing , as it is in its self , as many ways , as a thing can be shewn otherwise than it is in its self , so many ways may it be properly Misrepresented . This I agree to , and therefore let us proceed : Now ( says he ) it is certain , that for the description to bear on exact resemblance with the thing , it must not only agree with it in matter of fact , but likewise in every other respect , which it pretends to declare , as in motive , circumstance , intention , end , &c. The agreement in any one of these being enough to quite change the nature of the thing , notwithstanding the matter of fact being still the same . And this also I agree in , that motives , circumstances , intention , end , are all to be considered in representing ; but I want a reason , why he distinguishes these from the matter of fact : for by matter of fact , I understand an action cloathed with all its circumstances , without which , it is impossible truly to represent any action : For circumstances alter the nature of actions ; As suppose a man be killed , this may be done by accident , or with design , in heat of blood , or of premeditated malice , which makes it , either Chance-medley , Man-slaughter , or Murder ; and therefore the consideration of these things falls under the matter of fact , and are the proper matters for a Jury to inquire into , who yet are judges onely of Fact. And thus I understood matter of Fact , when I asserted , that we did not Misrepresent the Church of Rome in any matter of Fact ; that we did not onely charge them with nothing but what they did , but that we truly Represented all the circumstances of what they did , as far as the moral nature of the action is concerned in it , and indeed I know not , how we can either Represent or Misrepresent any action without its circumstances ; we may tell what is done , but the matter of the action is the least thing considerable in Representing , because it may be either good or bad in most cases , according to its different circumstances : and we cannot say , which it is , without considering all circumstances . As for instance , We do not onely charge the Church of Rome with Praying to Saints , and Worshipping Images , but we consider what is the Doctrine of their Church about these matters , in what manner they do it , and with what circumstances ; we admit of all the excuses and apologies , and fair representations that they can make of it , and then consider what the nature of the action is , and what the Scriptures and Primitive Fathers declare it to be . This , he knows , I did in the Book , which he now pretends to answer . To put an end to this Dispute about Misrepresenting , I told him , we did not like Popery , as he and the Bishop of Condom had Represented it , and shewed him our Reasons why we did not like it , as to the Object of Religious Worship , the Invocation of Saints , and the Worship of Images : And had he thought fit to have considered these , we might have obliged him so far , as to have confined the Dispute to his own Characters , and the Bishops Exposition , in the other points of Popery ; but he says not one word about this , but advances a new Paradox , that men may be Misrepresenters , though they do not Misrepresent any matter of Fact , because they may Misrepresent the Motives , Circumstances , Intention and End , as if this were not to Misrepresent matter of Fact ? Or as if we had Misrepresented them in this manner , when he had not , and cannot give any one instance wherein we have done so ? This short account shews , how impertinent all his examples of Misrepresenters are , who , as he says , did Misrepresent without belying men in matter of Fact ; for though this is nothing to us , unless he could prove us to be such Misrepresenters , which he has not once attempted to do ; yet the Examples he produces do not prove what he brings them for , for all their Misrepresentations are in matters of fact . Thus the ten Tribes suspected , that the Children of Reuben and Gad , and the half Tribe of Manasseh , had built an Altar for Sacrifice in the borders of Iordan , over-against the Land of Canaan , whereas the true matter of Fact was , that they had built an Altar not for Sacrifice , but as a witness and memorial of their right to Gods Altar , to offer their Sacrifices and burnt Offerings in the place which God should choose . When Eli thought Hannah had been drunken , because she prayed in her heart , only her lips moving , this was Misrepresenting matter of fact , for she was not drunk . And surely he will grant , that the two wanton Elders did foully bely Susannah , though she was alone and naked in the Garden , and that they represented the fact , quite otherwise than it was . And methinks our Author should grant , that the Jews did misrepresent matter of fact , when they charged our Saviour with being a Sabbath-breaker , a Glutton , a Friend of Publicans and Sinners , unless he will say that our Saviour was all this ; for if he were not , then they did belye him in matter of fact ; and so they did the Apostles and Primitive Christians , when they accused them as Troublers of the City , and Movers of Sedition , that they murdered Infants , and eat their Flesh ; that they Worshipped the Sun , and adored an Asses head for God ; for I suppose he will grant , that the matter of fact was false . But still , says the Accommodater , they had some matter of fact , whereon their Accusations were grounded , and which gave some colour and pretence to them . Sometimes they had , and sometimes they had not : But is not this a pleasant inference , that because those who tell onely a piece of a story may misrepresent , therefore those who faithfully relate the whole matter of fact , with all the particular circumstances of it , may be Misrepresenters also ? If he can give any one example of this nature , I will onely desire him to tell me the difference between Misrepresenting and true Representing . Men who have wit and malice enough , may put very spiteful constructions upon the most innocent and virtuous Actions , by altering or concealing some circumstances , or the end and intention of doing them ; but this is to misrepresent the fact , to represent a thing done otherwise , or for another end , than really it was ; but if a man who tells the whole truth , not onely what was done , but the end why , and the manner how it was done , can be a Misrepresenter , the honestest man in the world may be a Misrepresenter . When an action is truly and fairly Represented , men may still pass a false judgment upon that action ; may think that evil and forbidden by God , which God has not forbid , or that allowed and approved by God , which God abhors ; but this is not properly Misrepresenting , but judging falsly , which differ just as matter of Fact and matter of Law do in Civil Affairs . In all Causes Criminal and Civil , there are two distinct questions ; what the Fact , and what the Law is , what is done , and what judgment the Law passes on such Actions : To falsifie in matters of fact , is to Misrepresent the person and the action ; to give a wrong judgment , is to Misrepresent the Law : and thus it is in our case : We are first to enquire , what the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome are , and then of what nature they are , whether true or false , good or evil : If we affix such Doctrines or Practices on them , as they do not teach , or alter any material circumstance relating to them , then we are Misrepresenters in a proper sence , as misreporting matter of fact ; and this we utterly deny , and they can never prove that we do thus misrepresent them , that as our Author misrepresents us , we usher in , with they teach this , they believe that , they say this , they affirm that , and under these preambles charge the Papists for asserting and believing such Blasphemies , which they would sooner loose their lives than assent to : Which he has boldly affirmed without giving one instance of it ; but as for judging of their Doctrines and Practices , we do indeed pass such a judgment on them , as I doubt not but they will call Misrepresenting ; but whether it be so or no , is matter of Dispute , and must be decided by appealing to Scripture and Reason ; and we are not ashamed of being called Misrepresenters by them , when that signifies no more , than censuring and condemning their Faith and Practise . But he has one example more of this Misrepresenting , and that as he thinks a very nicking one , and that is the Fanatical Misrepresentations of the Church of England : To this end he brings in a Dissenter charging the Church of England with Popery , and several other ill things , which is intended to serve more purposes than one . Had he first proved us to be Misrepresenters , it had been a very proper way to make us sensible of the evil of it , to appeal to our own resentments of such usage . But what if Dissenters Misrepresent the Church of England , does this prove that the Church of England Misrepresents the Church of Rome ? If we indeed Misrepresent the Church of Rome , we have less reason to complain that the Dissenters Misrepresent us ; but if we are no Misrepresenters , we have reason doubly to complain , both for being charged with Misrepresenting , and for being Misrepresented . And therefore the Answer to this long harangue , is very short and plain ; however the Church of England be Misrepresented , whether by Papists or Fanaticks , we justifie our selves either by denying matter of Fact when that is false , or by confuting the Charge : We are not afraid of Disputing with our Adversaries when that is needful , but justifie the Doctrines and Practices of our Church by Scripture and Reason , which is a more generous way , than meerely to complain of being Misrepresented , without daring to right our selves ; which is the case of our late Character-makers . If the World will be moved by their complaints , to believe that they are Misrepresented , all is well , and they have what they desired ; but if you will be so perverse as not to believe that they are Misrepresented , though they tell you they are , and will needs be a disputing the point with them , they have done with you ; for their business is not to Dispute , but to Represent . The difference between us in this matter , is no more but this : We are not afraid of Misrepresentations , because we know we can defend our selves ; whereas they find they cannot defend themselves , and therefore have no other remedy , but to complain of being Misrepresented . And yet I must confess , this is as artificial a way of saying nothing , as I have met with . Our Accommodator is very sick of this talk of Misrepresenting , and knew not how to get rid of it , but by diverting the Dispute ; and therefore though it be nothing to the purpose , instead of proving that we are Misrepresenters , he desires us to consider , how the Dissenters Misrepresent us : but we have considered that enough already , and when there is occasion for it , will do so again ; our business at present is not with Dissenters , but Papists , and we are not for pursuing every new Game , but will keep to our old scent . It would be a pleasant Scene , could he at this time of day , engage the Church of England and Dissenters in a new Quarrel ; but thanks be to God many of our Dissenters are grown wiser now , and I hope more will every day ; whatever they have formerly suspected of our inclinations to Popery , they find now that they were mistaken in us ; and whatever defects they may charge our Worship with , I believe they will call it Popish and Antichristian no longer ; to be sure they will never think us the more inclined to Popery , because a Papist says so . While these Gentlemen lay behind the Curtain , and acted the part of a Zealous Brother under several disguises , there was much more danger of them than now : They have laid aside their Vizards , and let them now paint the Church of England how they please , and the worse the better ; for how mean an opinion soever he seems to have of our Dissenters , they are too wise and cautious to take Characters from open and professed Enemies . The truth is , he has horribly abused our Dissenters , unless by Dissenters , he means only his dearly beloved Quakers , with whose Cant he is as well acquainted , as if he had been either their Master , or Scholar . For he has drawn up such a charge against the Church of England , in the name of a Dissenter , as no Dissenter ever made . It is a Popish Character Fathered upon a Dissenter , for which they are much beholden to him , that when he has a mind to say things so spiteful and silly , that he himself ( tho' none of the modestest men ) is ashamed to own , he can think of no person so fit to say them as a Dissenter . Did ever any Dissenter charge the Church of England with making gods of dead men , because we call our Churches still by the names of those Saints to whom they were dedicated in the times of Popery ? For did not the Dissenters themselves do so in the late times of Reformation ? And do they scruple to do so now ? If there were any difference , it was only in not giving the Title of Saint to them , and I suppose that does not alter the case ; for if it be Paul's , or Peters , or Mary's Church , it is much the fame : But they were not so silly as to think , that names which were used only for distinction , without paying any worship to Saints , or erecting any Altars to them , in those Churches which were called by their names , made Gods of dead men . The Bills of Mortality were the same formerly in the Dissenters time , that they are now , and yet they did not suspect themselves guilty of placing Mary above Christ , or making a Goddess of her . Did ever any Dissenter charge the Church of England with Image-Idolatry , for having Pictures in their Bibles , or Moses and Aaron painted with the Ten Commandments , without leaving out the Second against Image-worship ? especially when these are things wherein the Church of England is no otherwise concerned , than in not correcting the extravagancy of Painters and Printers . And I confess , I have always suspected , that these men , who now charge us with the Image-Idolatry , of having Pictures in our Common-prayer Books ( which is a very late invention ) did secretly lay the design to reconcile our people by degrees to the use of Pictures and Images . The Dissenters indeed were never any great Friends to Holy-days ; but they never charged us with worshipping Saints on those days , which they saw we did not ; nor do they now charge us with worshipping the Bread , when we kneel at receiving the Sacrament , ( which is contrary to the publick Declarations of our Church ) but reject it , because it was no Table-posture , and because it had been abused ( as they scruple not to say ) to an Idolatrous worship of the Host in the Church of Rome . They have indeed objected against our Liturgy , That it was taken out of the Mass-book , and have been sufficiently answered as to that point ; and we know who they were that first started that Objection , some Mass-Priests under the disguise of Puritans . But I never heard before , that they were scared with the very names of Epistles , and Gospels , and Colects , and Litanies , nor did they ever quarrel with retaining Popish Saints in our Calendar , when we give them to place in our Prayers , which is only an evidence what Reformation we have made . I never knew before , that our Dissenters thought the Mass-book as Ancient as St. Basil and St. Chrysostom , or that they liked our Common-Prayer-Book ever the worse , because it came in with the Reformation of Religion , and has been altered since several times for the better ; whereas their complaint is , that it is not yet altered enough . Much less are they scandalized at the Thanksgiving for discovery of the Plot , how great a Chimera soever it be . Nor is there any dispute , that I know of , between the Dissenters and us about the Power of Absolution , or the Ministerial power of forgiving Sin. They and we agree , that Christ has left such a Power in the Church , of remitting and retaining Sins , of receiving in , and putting out of the Church , which is the state of Pardon and Forgiveness ; and we both deny , that this is absolute and judicial , or not only Ministerial . They know we oppose the pretence of a Judicial Power to forgive Sins in the Church of Rome , which we say is reserved for the great Judg of the World ; and it is very strange , they should peremptorily charge us with giving the Power of God to forgive Sins , to men , and yet at the same time accuse us of not agreeing what this power of Absolution is . Tho our Accommodator may make bold sometimes to contradict himself , yet I doubt the Dissenters will think themselves misrepresented by such contradictions . But did ever any Dissenter charge us with encouraging a Death-bed Repentance , for not obliging men to Confession and Penance ( which he calls to Confess and Repent ) in the time of their Health ? We teach men to confess their Sins to God , and to men too when there is occasion for it , either to reconcile themselves to their Brother , or to receive Ghostly comfort and advice ; and we teach them to Repent of their Sins , and reform them in time of Health , and show them what great danger there is in a Death-bed Repentance , and how very seldom it proves true ; which is no great encouragement to such delays . But how the Dissenters , who reject Confession to a Priest , and the Popish Sacrament of Penance , themselves , should quarrel with us for doing so , is somewhat strange . But we pretend to a power of giving Absolution , and never enjoyn it but in the last agony , which ( he says ) is argument enough to conclude , there 's no obligation of Repenting amongst us , till death looks us in the face . But he has not improved this Argument so well as he might ; for Absolution is never enjoined , not so much as in the hour of Death ; ( for we are only required to give Absolution , in case the Penitent earnestly desire it ) and therefore , according to his reasoning , it follows , that we think Repentance never necessary , not so much as in the hour of Death . But other men , who have common understanding , would hence conclude , that we make a great difference between the Sinners Repentance , and the Priests Absolution ; that the first is always necessary , the other only in case of Church Censures , or to give relief to afflicted Consciences , or to dismiss penitent sinners in the peace of the Church . Do not Dissenters themselves allow converted Priests , who are under the vow of Continency , to Marry , if they cannot preserve their Chastity without it ? And has not our Accomodator then , put a wise Objection into their Mouths against the Church of England ; which , if it be any Objection , returns upon themselves ? Neither they nor we pretend to dispence with Vows made to God ; but we think no Vow can oblige men to Sin ; and since all men have not the gift of Continency , as our Saviour says , If such Persons are ensnared in a rash Vow , ( it may be , while they were Children , or before they understood their own Temper and Complexion ) since we cannot think the Fornication of Priests a more holy State than Marriage , we think it more justifyable to repent of a rash Vow , than to live in a constant state of Temptation and Sin. It is likely enough , as he says , that Dissenters may complain of Persecution , tho they themselves have been declared Enemies to an unlimited Toleration ; and it will be hard to find a medium between a general Liberty of Conscience , and those restraints which are laid on Dissenters . But it must be considered , whether the Church or the State be chargeable with this . The several Laws which have been made against Dissenters , have been more for the security of the State , than of the Church ; have been occasioned by a restless humour which has threatned the publick Peace ; and have been rarely executed but at the instance of Civil Authority , to provide for the security of the State ; and I suppose he will not parallel this with some other Persecutions . But to make the Dissenters quarrel at the Assistance given to the Low-Countries , and proffered to the French in their Rebellion , and the hard usage of the Queen of Scots , and the late Murder of Charles I. argues , he matters not much what he says ; and to charge these Intrigues of State upon the Church of England , is to forget that he is in England ( and not at Rome ) where Kings make Peace and War , not the Pope with his Council of Cardinals . And yet our Accommodator has kept the sweetest bit for the last . For he brings in the Dissenter accusing the Church of England , for giving every man a liberty of Judging , and yet requiring Obedience to her own Constitutions , which the meanest Sectaries among them challenge and practice ; and it is not very modestly done of them , to blame that in us , which they do themselves . They all judg for themselves , and therefore form Churches and Communions of their own ; and they will not receive any into their Communion , without owning their Faith , and submitting to their Order and Discipline ; and this is all that the Church of England challenges , only with this difference , that being established by Law , her Communion and Government is enforced by Laws . And what a mighty Absurdity and Contradiction is this , that men should be taught to use their own Reason and Judgment in Religion , and yet required to submit and conform to a Church , whose Faith and Worship is consonant both to Scripture and Reason . Well , but after all this Liberty granted by the Church of England , Whosoever will follow her , must shut his Eyes , stifle his Reason , and be led only by the Nose . Why ! What 's the matter now ? The charge is no more but this , That in matters of Order and Decency ; and such things as are left to the Determination of Church Governours , as are neither forbid nor commanded by God , we must submit to the Determinations of Authority , whatever private Judgement or Opinion we may have of things . A great fault this , that tho every man must judge for himself in good and evil , yet every private mans Judgement must be over-ruled by the publick Judgment in matters of Order and external circumstances of Religion . Much of the same nature , is his concluding Charge , That we are a wavering and unsetled Church , subject to continual Variations , because some Rites and Ceremonies formerly used , are now laid aside ; And what then ? Does the settlement of the Church consist in external Ceremonies ? Is it any fault in a Church , which challenges to her self a Power to appoint , and constitute , and alter external Rites , to exercise this Power as She shall think most for the Edification of the Church , which is the only Rule of right and wrong in this Case , which may therefore change with the Change and Alteration of times and Persons , and other external circumstances of Affairs ? Now let every man judg , whether there were ever such a Speech made for a Dissenterbefore , which in every Point of it is directly contrary to his own Profession and Practice : It is time for our Author to have done with his Trade of Representing , for no man would know what it was he Represented , did he not take care with the unskilful Painter to write over his uncouth Figures , what they are ; This is an Horse , and this an Ass. And thus this hopeful design of Representing and Misrepresenting , ends only in ridiculing the Church of England ; a Liberty , which if we needed it , is not mannerly for us to use at this time ; but we are contented they should ridicule our Church , if they will permit us truly to Represent theirs . But to proceed , Our Accommodator grants that he is still in Arrears ; and certainly , never any Bankrupt paid less in the Pound than he offers ; and this is his Accommodating , which Merchants call Compounding . In my Answer to his Reflections , I proved , that what he calls the Character of a Papist Misrepresented , has nothing of Misrepresentation in it properly so called ; for there was no matter of Fact misreported ; in his Answer , which he calls , Papists protesting against Protestant Popery , instead of justifying his Character , he seeks out for new Misrepresentations ; this in my last Answer , I enquired the reason of , Why , instead of justifying his own Misrepresentations , which he had so unjustly fathered upon us , he should hunt about to pick up some new Misrepresentations for me to Answer . And the Reason he now assigns for it , is , Because I had little to say against the former , except that they were not to be called Misrepresentations in a strict Sense . Now , the less I had to say , it was the more easily answered , tho I know not what more need to be answered to the charge of Misrepresenting , than to prove that it is false . But he says , he fathered his Misrepresentations on no Body ; and so much the worse for that , for a general charge includes every Body . And yet he was as unfortunate in his new Misrepresentations , as in his old ones . He brings in the Arch-Bishop of York for a Misrepresenter , whereas the Misrepresentations he Transcribes out of the Arch-Bishop , the Arch-Bishop cites out of Popish Authors , and names the Authors where they are to be found ; but the Protester to make a Misrepresenter of him , conceals all these Authorities , and sets down the Words as the Bishops own ; and this he did only to consult the Credit of the Prelate : In what Sir ? That he might have the entire Glory of being a Misrepresenter , without being thought to steal out of Popish Authors . But he saies , The Bishop is still a Misrepresenter , in charging these sayings of private Doctors upon the Church ; But where does he do that ? Yes , He saies , He ( that is , the Papist ) must believe ; but does he say , The Church says thus , or only Stapleton ? Stapleton might be a Misrepresenter , in delivering this as the Faith of the Church , That we must simply believe the Church of Rome , whether it teach true or false ; but the Arch-Bishop does not Misrepresent the Church in saying , that Stapleton saies so . What is the Authority of private Doctors , is not the Dispute ; but , whether Protestants be Misrepresenters for saying , That such Doctrines are taught by such Doctors of the Church of Rome . The Case of Mr. Sutcliff ( another of his Misrepresenters ) is somewhat different . For , besides what he cites from their own Authors , which is set down by the Protester without taking notice that he quotes his Authors for it ; he many times charges them with the Concequences of their Doctrines and Practices ; not that he charges them with owning such Consequences , but proves such Doctrines on them , from what they do profess and own ; and such sayings as these the Protester sets down as charged on the Church of Rome in the first instance , as her avowed Doctrine : When Mr. Sutcliff only alledges them , as the just interpretations and Consequences of her Doctrine , which differ just as much as Misrepresenting and Disputing ; as saying what a Church professes to believe , and what the consequence of such a Faith is . As to show this by an instance or two : The Protester sets these Propositions down as Mr. Sutcliffs Misrepresentations . That Papists speak what they can in disgrace of the Holy Scriptures ; That they give the Office of Christs Mediation to the Virgin Mary , to Angels , and to Saints ; That by the Doctrine of Papists , the Devils in Hell may be saved . Now indeed , had he said , That the Papists teach this in express Words , he had been a Misrepresenter in a proper Sense , for they teach no such thing ; but Mr. Sutcliff never charges these Doctrines Directly upon them , but saies , That they say , the Scriptures are obscure and hard to be understood ; and this is , to speak in disgrace of the Holy Scriptures . That they teach , that by the merits of Saints , Christians obtain their desires , and are delivered out of Purgatory . And this is to give the Office of Christs Mediation to the Virgin Mary , and to Saints . That they teach , that the Devils in Hell may have true Faith ; and yet our Saviour saith , Whosoever believeth in him , shall not perish , but have everlasting life : So it follows by the Doctrines of Papists , That the Reprobrates and Devils in Hell may be saved . So that he expresly distinguishes between what the Papists teach , and what himself concludes from such Doctrines , and therefore he does not Misrepresent the Papists ; for he charges them with owning no Doctrines but what they do own ; but if he be guilty of any fault , it is in reasoning and Disputing ; and there is no way that I know of , to confute such Consequences , but by Reason and Dispute ; the very Name of which is very uneasie to the Representer , and there is good reason why it should be so . And this I suppose may satisfie the Accommodator Why I charged him with setting down these sayings of Mr. Sutcliff , seperated from the Reasons of them ; for how little soever he may think himself concerned in his Reasons , yet it is of great Consequence in the matter of Representing , to distinguish between the Doctrines of Papists , and what is charged on them , only , as the Consequence of their Doctrines . To charge them with teaching such Doctrines as they do not teach , is Misrepresenting ▪ and therefore , had these sayings , which he Transcribed out of Mr. Sutcliff , been charged upon the Papists as their sayings , it had been Misrepresenting ; and this was the design of the Protester in quoting these sayings , without giving an account upon what occasion they were said , to perswade his Readers , that Mr. Sutcliff had directly and immediately charged these Doctrines upon Papists as expresly taught by them , and then he had been a Misrepresenter indeed . But since it is otherwise , it is plain , Mr. Sutcliff was Misrepresented by the Protester , but he did not Misrepresent Papists , as that signifies charging them immediately with such Doctrines as they do not own . In the next place he charges me with translating dishonestly , for not rendring proper Deum , or for Gods sake , in English , in the form of consecrating the Cross. Now I confess , why this was not translated I cannot tell , and knew nothing of it , till I was informed by him ; had it been in a dispute about the nature and reason of that worship which they pay to the Cross , these words had been very considerable ; but it relating only to the manner of consecrating the Cross , they signified nothing , as any one will see , who consults the place . Especially considering , that the whole design of that Discourse about the Worship of Images ( against which he has not one word to object , but this Omission ) was to show the evil of Image-worship , tho they gave no Worship to the material Image , but only worshipped God or Christ , or the Saints by Images ; and therefore I had no occasion at all to conceal the English of propter Deum . In my Answer to Papists protesting against Protestant-Popery , I took occasion to examine the Bishop of Condom's Exposition in two very concerning Points , viz. The Invocation of Saints , and Worship of Images ; our Accomodator , it seems , could see no reason why he should engage in this Dispute , and therefore thinks it sufficient to show , that my Reasons for this Dispute are not cogent , and he names two , such as they are ; 1. That I know no reason for all this Dispute . But this saying related to the Dispute about the Bishop of Condom's Authority , not about his Exposition of the Catholick Faith. 2. His second Reason is like the first ; Because I said , He was not satisfied with my bare telling him , That I was not satisfied with his Religion ; and therefore now I would give him my Reasons for it ; which he huffs at , and says , he was never concerned with my not liking his Religion . What pretty Reasons will serve to excuse a Man from Answering a Discourse which he knows he cannot answer ! The plain case is this , The Representer made his Appeals , and put great confidence in the Bishop of Condom's Authority , whose business is to put the softest sense he can upon the Doctrines of the Council of Trent ; and such Interpretations of the Catholick Faith , as have been condemned by other very Catholick Doctors . In my Reply to the Reflections , I considered what this Bishops Authority is ; and in my last Answer I examined what the Protester had returned in the defence of it , which our Accommodator now says not one word to : But yet I told him , I knew no reason for this dispute , Whether the Bishop of Condom's Exposition were to be the standard of the Roman Catholick Faith ; for if we should allow this , yet Popery is a very corrupt Religion , tho the Bishop of Condom were the Authentick Expositor of it . And to show that it is so , I undertook to examine that Bishops Exposition in those two great Articles of the Romish Faith , the Invocation of Saints , and Worship of Images ; and how this should be a Reason for our Accommodator to take no notice of it , I cannot imagine : Had he any zeal for his Religion , and could have answered that Discourse , I believe all that I could have said would not have hindred him . To conclude this whole matter , He peremptorily adheres to his first Title of a Representer , and declines all manner of disputation , tho in vindication of the Bishop of Condom's Exposition , to which he so often Appeals . The only point he sticks to is , That to assent to the Catholick Faith , as expounded in his Character , and by the Bishop of Condom , is sufficient for any Man to be received into the Communion of the Church of Rome . But both he and the Bishop of Condom do not meerly Represent , but Reason and Argue also ; and I should have thought they had been a little concerned to justifie their own Representations and Reasonings . But whether this Reasoning and Disputing were agreeable to his design or not , it was very necessary to ours . For when they endeavour to soften the Doctrines of their Church , and to abate a great deal of Bellarmin's Popery , to reconcile our people to them ; it is necessary for us to warn them of the snare , and to show them what an ill thing Popery is in its best dress ; and therefore I as little desire that he should answer what I have said to this purpose , as he cares for doing it : I never writ a Book with a desire to have it answered ; but to inform those , who otherwise might be imposed on . And I suppose our people will think never the worse of any Book , because Papists decline the dispute , who were never known to avoid Disputing , when they thought they could get any thing by it . And thus I take a fair leave of the Representer ; for this matter , I think , is driven as far as it will go : We have by his own confession , cleared our selves from being Misrepresenters in the true and proper sense of the Word ; for we have not falsly charged them with any Doctrines and Practises disowned by their Church ; and as for their Character of a Papist Represented , tho' it falls very short of what some great Divines among them , of equal Authority with the Bishop of Condom , have thought to be the Doctrine of the Council of Trent ; yet we are willing to joyne issue with them upon their own terms , and to shew them our Reasons , why we cannot comply with this refined and new-modelled Popery . But this is to dispute , and that does not agree with a Representer , whose business is to make Characters without any concern to defend them : And I am not so fond of disputing , as to dispute with him whether he will or no. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A59789-e190 Amicable Accommodation , p. 6. P. 7. P. 8. 22 Josh. 1 Sam. 1. 13. P. 12. See Foxes and Firebrands . P. 25. P. 31. P. 35. P. 36. P. 37. P. 38.