A trve copie of the disputation held betweene Master Walker and a Iesuite in the house of one Thomas Bates in Bishops Court in the Old Baily concerning the ecclesiasticall function Walker, Henry, Ironmonger. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A67245 of text R17974 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W391). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 9 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A67245 Wing W391 ESTC R17974 12868157 ocm 12868157 94763 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A67245) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 94763) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 255:E172, no 9) A trve copie of the disputation held betweene Master Walker and a Iesuite in the house of one Thomas Bates in Bishops Court in the Old Baily concerning the ecclesiasticall function Walker, Henry, Ironmonger. [8] p. s.n.] [London? : 1641. Attributed to Henry Walker by Wing and BM. Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Church polity -- Early works to 1800. Great Britain -- Religion -- 17th century. A67245 R17974 (Wing W391). civilwar no A true copie of the disputation held betweene Master Walker and a Iesuite, in the house of one Thomas Bates in Bishops Court in the Old Bail Walker, Henry, Ironmonger 1641 1539 1 0 0 0 0 0 6 B The rate of 6 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-07 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TRVE COPIE OF The Disputation held betweene Master Walker and a Iesuite , in the house of one Thomas Bates in Bishops Court in the Old Baily , Concerning The Ecclesiasticall Function . Printed in the yeare , 1641. A true Copy of a Disputation held between Mr. Walker and a Iesuit . Iesuit . I Pray you what is the reason that the people in England would have no Bishops ? Mr. Walker . Were our Bishops one and the same with Presbyters , we should not seeke to have them removed . It is those lordly Hierarchicall Prelates , which are instituted after the Popish order , those lofty tyrants that rule like the Gentiles over the people of God , these be the Bishops that the people of God are offended with . Ies. If the Bishops should not governe the church , then the people would fall into many errors , and the Church would be full of Schismes . Wal. Doe you thinke that they keepe errours out of the Church ? no they ( as it is very apparent ) have beene the sole cause of the Popery , errours , schismes , and innovations , wherwith our Churches have beene lately pestered . Ies. You are mistaken , for they have received the power of the Holy Ghost , by which they are led and guided that they cannot erre . Wal. Upon what grounds doe you conceive that they should have a greater measure of the Spirit of God then other Pastours and Ministers ? Ies. They receive the Holy Ghost from succession , to which succession Christ hath promised to be with them to the end of the world , so that they cannot erre . Wal. How can you prove such a succession to belong to them , as brings the Holy Ghost with it to all without exception , to lead them that they cannot erre ? Ies. Because they are successors to Christ and his Apostles , and you know that his Apostles could not erre . Wal. Did not Peter erre when hee was reproved by Christ to speak foolishly ? did he not erre when Christ said to him , Get thee behind me Satan , thou savourest not ? Did hee not erre when hee denyed Christ ? yea and forswore him too ? Did not Thomas erre when he thought it was not Christ that appeared to them ? Ies. They erred onely in some particulars of frailty , which was incident to them as men , but these were but veniall errors : they erred not in the discipline of the Church as they were Apostles . Wal. Did not Iudas erre in discipline , when for thirty peeces of silver hee betrayed Christ into the hands of the High Priests to be crucified ? Ies. I speake not of Iudas , for his Bishopricke was taken from h●m , and given to another , I speake of the rest of the Apostles . Wal. If part of the Apostolicall function bee secluded from the rest , whence then doe you prove the government of Bishops to bee thus endued by succession from the Apostles ? Ies. Because as the Apostles taught nothing dissonant from the truth of Gods word , being directed thereunto by the Holy Ghost : so the Bishops their successors doe the like . Wal. That doth not follow : for the Apostles and our Prelates are not all one and the same office : for the Apostles were the disciples of Christ , but the Prelates are the limbs of Antichrist . Ies. Peter the Apostle was Bishop of Rome , whose See hath beene held by succeeding Bishops unto this day . Wal. Peter was no more tyed to Rome then to other Churches , for that was contrary to Christs command , who commanded both him and the rest to preach to all Nations . Ies. The Bishop of Rome is in every respect a true successor unto Peter . The power of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , in censuring , in Constitutions , Decrees , &c. is derived from the Apostle S. Peter , to the Bishop of Rome , and from him to all other Bishops . Wal Christ gave not the jurisdiction to one particular Apostle alone , that the rest should have it by succession from him , but they all received it from Christ : neither hath the Bishop of Rome any succeeding authority from them above others . Ies. This succession is of such consequence , that should it cease , and there should be no Bishops , there could be no lawfull admittance of any into the Ecclesiasticall function , for ordination cannot be without the Bishops . Wal. Can you deny that that meanes whereby men are kept , and maintained , and upheld in their Ecclesiasticall offices , is the beginning and authour thereof : But by the Spirit of God are Ecclesiasticall Officers prescribed in their office and Ministery . Ergo , The Pastors and Elders which were ordained even by the Apostles themselves , receive not their power and jurisdiction from the Apostles by succession , but from the Lord : much lesse hath the Pope right to doe it , or any Bishop in the world from himselfe ; for onely Christ hath authority to prefer to the government of the Church . Ies. In the institution by Bishops the power of the Holy Ghost is received , that God directeth them that they shall be able to preserve the Church from error , which is the chiefe end of the ministery . Wal. Is the Church preserved from error by those that teach the people to be trecherous to their Kings and Princes , and to slay the Lords anointed : the Lord deliver our Church from such errors . Ies. The Bishop of Rome doth not allow of it . Wal. Did not Pope Innocentius the fourth hyre his bastard sonne Manfredus to poyson the Emperour Fredericke ; and Sixtus the 5. made an oration in praise and commendation of the Fryers faith which murdered Henry 3. King of France . Ies. These are scandalous aspersions , such I doe not beleeve to be true . Wal. What say you then to the fightings of the Papists in Ireland against the Queen , the Spanish Invasion , the Gunpowder treason , that of Iames Clement against the King of France , &c. Ies. The Bishop of Rome never allowed of any of these , they had neither counsell nor consent from him . Wal. It is wel enough knowne to the contrary ; but to come neerer to you , doe you thinke it is not an error for the Pope to take upon him to curse and excommunicate Kings and Princes at his pleasure ? Ies. Such who have vowed to him allegeance he hath power to excommunicate : as for such who have not , they are of another Church . Wal. Therefore the Emperour Frederick was so wise to make a Law , that if a Bishop were found to attempt any thing against the publick quiet , that he should live an hundred miles off from that City or place which he had disturbed . And it were to bee wished that all such disturbers of the peace and quiet of this our Nation , were sent not onely an hundred , but a thousand miles off . Ies. Why doe you abuse those Bishops that are of so noble and honourable a function ? Christ the head of the Church hath placed Bishops in his own stead , giving them that power which himselfe received of his Father , insomuch that there is no office or degree which Christ received from his Father , but he doth communicate the same to them . Wal. Christ is our Mediator , will you say that the Prelates are our mediators ? Ies. As Christ is our Mediatour , paying to his Father the ransome , so are they Priests and mediatours by prayer . Wal. I deny your tenent , it is no better then blasphemy ; for there is onely one Mediatour between God and man , the man Christ Iesus , as Paul saith , 1 Tim. 2. 5. Ies. They are our mediatours , I doe not say as authors themselves of any benefit to us , but obtaining through Christ and his merits whatsoever by them is obtained for us . Wal. If Christ hath not purchased what is obtained for us without their mediation , then were Christ an imperfect mediatour : but Christ is a perfect Mediatour , even hee that hath trod the wine-presse alone , and what is obtained is only from him , and by him alone . FINIS .