A discourse betwixt Lieutenant Colonel Iohn Lilburn close prisoner in the Tower of London, and Mr Hugh Peter: upon May 25. 1649. Published by a friend, for the publick benefit Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A88176 of text R9855 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing L2100). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 21 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A88176 Wing L2100 ESTC R9855 99896303 99896303 154041 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A88176) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 154041) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2394:15) A discourse betwixt Lieutenant Colonel Iohn Lilburn close prisoner in the Tower of London, and Mr Hugh Peter: upon May 25. 1649. Published by a friend, for the publick benefit Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. Peters, Hugh, 1598-1660. 8 p. [s.n.], London : printed in the year 1649. Reproduction of original in the Folger Shakespeare Library. eng Great Britain -- Politics and government -- 1642-1649 -- Early works to 1800. Great Britain -- History -- Civil War, 1642-1649 -- Early works to 1800. A88176 R9855 (Wing L2100). civilwar no A discourse betwixt Lieutenant Colonel Iohn Lilburn close prisoner in the Tower of London, and Mr Hugh Peter: upon May 25. 1649. Published b Lilburne, John 1649 4218 7 0 0 0 0 0 17 C The rate of 17 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DISCOVRSE Betwixt LIEUTENANT COLONEL IOHN LILBURN Close Prisoner in the Tower of London , AND Mr HUGH PETER : Upon May 25. 1649. Published by a friend , for the Publick benefit . MAT. 7. 15 , 16. Beware of false Prophets , which come to you in Sheeps clothing , but inwardly they are ravening Wolves . Ye shall know them by their fruits : Do men gather grapes of thorns , or figs of thistles ? LONDON , Printed in the Yeer 1649. A DISCOURSE betwixt Lieut. Col. JOHN LILBURN , close prisoner in the Tower of London , and Mr HUGH PETER ; upon Friday May 25 , 1649. THis present Friday Mr. Peters , with one Doctor Maysey of Kingston , and a Captain of M. Burton's Congregation that I have known formerly in Major General Craford's Regiment of Foot , with the Lieutenant of the Tower , and my Keeper , came into my Lodging , where they found my wife and my self at dinner ; and after salutes of each other , Mr. Peter told me to this effect , That he had at or neer the Custome house , received an affront , for which he came to the Lieutenant of the Tower for reparation , and so was resolved to see me , being here , and kill two birds with one stone ; and being newly come from sea , and hearing I was here , he meerly came to give me a visit , out of no other designe in the world , but meerly a bare visit . I replyed to this purpose ; Mr. Peter , I know you well enough , and you know that I know you to be one of the setting-dogs , or stalking-horses of the great men of the Army , with fair and plausible pretences to insinuate into men when they have done them wrong , and to work out their designes when they are in a strait , and cover over their blots that they have made , when they grow so visible , that they cannot well be hid , but will appear to their shame . He wondering that I entertain'd him with such a guage for his friendly visiting me ( as he call'd it ) I told him in effect , it was no halting before a creeple , for I knew him well enough , and those to whom he belonged . But he sate him down and ate and drunk with me , and fell a wondering at all the stirs here , and what should be the cause of the late bloud that was shed . I told him in effect , his great Masters could better inform him of that then I . Said he , They say , Your bustling hath occasioned it . Truly Sir , I say , their injustice , oppression and tyranny hath done it : and I am sure , I fetch'd not them out of White-hall , or any other of their Lodgings ; but they fetch'd me out of Winchester-house , out of my bed and habitation , from my wife and children , and carried me to their thing called a Councel of State , who ( like a company of righteous Judges , the clean contrary way ) committed me to prison in the nature of a Traytor , before ever they let me see accuser , accusation , prosecutor , or witnesse , or any due processe of Law : and yet time was , when the King impeached Kimbolton and the five Members , and preferred a Charge of seven Articles against them of high-treason in the highest nature , recorded 1. Part Book Decl. pag. 35. and onely failed in a single punctilio of due Process of Law , that they cryed out , it was such an invasion of the peoples Liberty , that four or five peccavies and recantations from him , recorded in their own Declarations , would never serve their turn : but yet forty times more illegalitie exercised by themselves upon me , must be legall , just , and right in your great , just and righteous Masters , that now have a prerogative and priviledge , they can neither say , do , nor act evill , although they commit me to prison without any crime pretended , or without ever letting me see accuser , or accusation , prosecutor or charge ; and yet into the bargain , deal worse with me then ever the Heathen and Pagan Romans dealt with Paul , who had nothing but the depraved light of Nature to guide them , and yet in all his imprisonment never forbad or hindered any of his friends to visit or relieve him , although he were accused for a pestilent fellow , and a turner of the world up side down : but they lock me up in a close room , with centinels at my door , and will not so much as at a distance let me speak with my friends ; nay , and for severall days would not so much as let me see my wife : And yet , Mr. Peter , these are your religious , godly , consciencious Masters . And if this be the fruits of their saint-ship and religion , I do assure you , the Divel is as good , if not a better Saint : for he beleeves and trembles , which is more then I think they do : and if the Sun shining upon the dunghill , make it stink , whether is the fault in the Sun or the dunghill ? So , being at dinner with a Summers diet , the Lieut. of the Tower told me , I fared sutable to my allowance . What ? saith Mr. Peter , Do they give him allowance ? I , saith the Lieutenant , they would allow him twenty shillings a week , and he refuseth it . Sa●d I to this purpose , Sir , forty shillings a week ( as diet is now ) will not provide me such meat : and besides , Mr. Peter , do your great Masters think , that my captivitie shall make me value my self at the rate of such a scoundrell fellow ( having been a Lieutenant Colonel in their Service ) as to accept of twenty shillings a week , when the King ( whom they beheaded for a Tyrant ) allowed to the meanest ordinary man that ever he sent hither , three pound a week . I am sure , they have five times the Kings Revenue , and things are twice as dear as they used to be : And if they will imitate him in all his basenesse , nay , and far out strip him , I will hold them to it a little , to imitate him in some of his vertues ; and therefore , unlesse they will allow me the allowance that is the custome of the place , I will have none of it : and you may tell them from me , I scorn to be fed by them with a bit and a knock . A little after , Mr Peter casting his eye upon my Law-books , takes up one of Cook's Institutes , and professed , I was meerly gull'd in reading or trusting to these Books , for there was no Laws in England . I answered to this effect , That I did beleeve what he said ; for they ( meaning his great Masters , Cromwel , Fairfax , &c. ) had destroyed them all . Nay , saith he , I tell you , there never was any in England . No ( said I ) ? and taking up my Statute-book , I turned him to the Petition of Right , and asked him whether that be a Law or no ? No , saith he , it is none : and I would fain have you to define what Law is . Mr. Peter , said I , I will not take upon me to define what Law is in your sense , or in my own ; but I will turn you to a definition in the Parliaments sense in their own book of Declarations ; which I read to him , as followeth : The Law is that which puts a difference between good and evill , betwixt just and unjust : If you take away the Law , all things will fall into confusion , every man will become a law unto himself ; which in the depraved condition of humane nature , must needs produce many great enormities : Lust wil become a law , and Envie will become a law , covetousnesse and ambition will become laws ; and what dictates , what decisions such laws will produce , may easily be discerned . So , Mr Peter , here is a definition of Law by the Parliament in the days of their primitive puritie , before they had corrupted themselves with the Common-wealths money . And elsewhere it is their language , That the Law is the safeguard , the custodie of all private interests ; your Honours , your Lives , your Liberties and Estates are all in the keeping of the Law : without this every man hath a like right to any thing . And elsewhere the Law is called that right line that discovereth that which is tort crooked , or wrong ; the Law is that right line that measures it self and a croked line : the Law is the best birth-right the Subject hath ; for thereby his Goods , Lands , Wife , Children , his Bodie , Life , Honour , and Estimation are protected from injury and wrong , being the surest sanctuarie that a man can take , and the strongest fortresse to protect the weakest of all . To every one of us there comes a greater inheritance by right and the Law , then by our Parents . Yea , and it is further said by their Oracle , It is a miserable servitude or bondage where the Law is uncertain , or unknown . He answers to this effect , I tell you saith he , for all this , there is no Law in this Nation , but the sword , and what it gives ; neither was there any Law or Government in the World , but what the Sword gave and set up . Unto which I Replyed to this purpose , Mr Peter , I look upon you as one of the principall Guids of the Army , and a man that doth from time to time speak very much the sence of the Leaders of the Army , being you lie in their bosomes , and know their secrets , and is much used by them , to trumpet abroad their Principles and Tenents ; But Sir , let me tell you withall , if your reasoning be sound and good , then if six Theeves meet three , or four honest men , and because they are stronger then they , rob them , that act is righteous , sound and good , because their swords are stronger then the others ; and if any Power be a just Power that is uppermost because it is up , I wonder how you of the Army , and they of the Parliament can acquit your selves of being Rebels and Traytors before God and man , in resisting and fighting against a just Power in the King , who was a Power up , & fenced about with abundance of Laws so reputed in the common acceptation of English men , by the expresse Letter of which I am sure of it , all those who ever they be that shall rise in Armes against him , are ipso facto Traytors ; and I would faine know , if it were not for the preservation of the Laws , that holds out the peoples Liberties & Freedomes , that the Parliament and Army engaged in Theirs , against the King a just Power , because he was up upon your own grounds ; what can you or any other make rationally to be the ground of the the Wars ? But Sir , in short and in plain English , let me tell you , that if there be now no Law in England , nor never was , that then you and your great Masters , Cromwell , Fairfax , and the Parliament , are a pack of arrant bloody Rogues and Villaines , in setting the people together by the ears , to fight for the preservation of their Laws , in which their Libertie is contained ( which is the principall declared cause of the Warre from the beginning to the end of the War never ) if there were no such thing in being as Law in England : At which Mr Peter was much startled , and much condemned my harsh language , though it be farre short of what Christ himselfe used to his ( viz. Mr Peters ) brothers , the Scribes and Pharisees , upon the like occasion , Mat. 23. 14. where he saith , Wo unto you Scribes and Pharisees , Hypocrites ; for yee devoure widowes houses , and for a pretence make long prayer ; therefore yee shall receive the greater damnation : and in Verse , 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 31 , 32 , he saith , Wo unto you , Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites ; for ye pay tithe of mint , and anise , and cummin , and have omitted the weighty matters of the Law , judgment , mercy , and faith : these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone . Ye blind guids , which strain at a gnat , and swallow a camel . Wo unto you , Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites ; for ye make clean the outside of the cup , and of the platter , but within they are full of extortion and excesse . Thou blind Pharisee , cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter , that the out-side of them may be clean also . Wo unto you , Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites ; for ye are like unto whited sepulchers , which indeed appear beautifull outward , but are within full of dead mens bones , and of all uncleannesse . Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men , but within ye are full of hypocr●sie and iniquitie . Wo unto you , Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites ; because ye build the tombs of the Prophets , and garnish the Sepulchers of the righteous , and say . If we had been in the dayes of our Fathers we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the Prophets . Wherefore ye be witnesses unto your selves , that ye are the children of them which killed the Prophets . Fill ye up then the measure of your Fathers . And in the 8th of John , when the Jews in their works and actions denyed Abraham and God to be their Father , and yet in words owned them both for their Father , verse 39. 41. Christ in the 44 verse , tels them plainly , Ye are of your father the devill , and the lusts of your father ye will do : he was a murtherer from the beginning , and aboade not in the truth , because there is no truth in him . Wh●n h● speaketh a lie , he speaketh of his own : for he is a liar , and the father of it . And the Apostle Paul's Exhortation to his Followers , is to reprove such notorious hypocriticall workers of iniquitie sharply . But after he had sufficiently condemned my language in speaking plain English , which I say , is the whole current of the Scripture to incorrigible dissembling men as they are : he again and again protested and desired the Company to beare Witnesse , that he in saying , there was no Law in England , did not speak the sence of the Army , but his own proper opinion , and also protested , he had no design in comming to me , but a bare visit ; and wondered I would be so hot at him for his love ; and he was farre enough from any of their Designs : I Replyed to this purpose , Mr Peter , You know I know you well enough , and I tell you , in a Play , every Player hath his part , yea even the seeming Fool , and many times they Act with a seeming violence , and against one another ; but they all Center in this end to get the Spectators money from them ; I leave you to make Application : And I tell you moreover , the last year , when the stirs began , when Sir John Maynard , and the four Aldermen were prisoners here at the Tower , You came and took up your lodging at Col. Whits , under pretence of reposing your selfe , and being nigh your businesses , being bound in all haste to New-England as you said , although you never intended it , I am confident of it , in the least , but meerly came hither upon a Design finely coloured over , to work a complyance in Sir John Maynard , and the four Aldermen to your great Masters , that so seeing the City baffled of their Liberty , they might come off with as little losse of Reputation in their deliverance as might be ; and I believe some such thing if not worse in the bottom of your visiting of me at this time : But he Replyed very bitterly and earnestly , againe and againe , calling God to witnesse , he had no design the last year upon Sir John Maynard , and the Aldermen , in his comming to the Tower , nor upon me in his comming to visit me ; and told me , I need not be so passionate , there was no feare of the losse of my life : To which I Replyed , to this effect ; Sir , I know you , and your Masters so well , and that you have so couzoned and cheated all Parties and Interests that ever you dealt with , so visibly and evidently , never keeping either faith , promise , or engagements with any of them , longer then it served your present turns ; it being beyond a maxime long since amongst some of you so to do , that I doe protest unto you , both for you and them , I will not believe one word yee say , swear , or protest , but the more earnest you or they are in any of them , the more jealous I will be of you ; and therefore know this for hereafter , that where ever I meet your Masters , or any of their under depending tribe , I will be upon my Guard , as though I were amongst a company of the arrentest cheaters and deceivers in the world ; by whom I hope I shall never be cozoned any more with credulity and honesty ; for I will never hereafter believe you , though I should bee glad you would deceive me once againe in doing good to the poore Nation , for it is easily in you power ; but I believe you will never doe it ; and for my life , if I were to lay it down to morrow , I would scorn to beg or intreat for it , from any of your Masters ; and if it be in no danger , it is no thanks to them , for I am confidently perswaded in my very heart , it is not mine an hour longer , then they dare take it away , either by hook or crook , but it may prove a choak pear to them , when ever they goe about it . But Sir , said I , I thought I had been safe enough , when I squared my actions by the Rules of those Laws that they have often sworn , declared , and promised year after year , and month after month to maintain and defend ; and make as the standard or touchstone betwixt them and the people , as they have done with the Petition of Right , &c. I but saith he , I will shew you your great mistake in that particular , and that your safety ●●es not therein : so I longed to hear that . Well , saith he , their mindes may change , and then where are you ? I but Sir , said I , I cannot take notice of what is in their mindes to obey that ; but the constant Declaration of their mindes , ( without ever so much as in any one Declaration contradicting it ) as that they will maintain the Petition of RIGHT , and the Liberties therein contained , must bee the rule of my obedience : And the Petition of RIGHT , by reason of their constant Declarations to preserve it , I make the rule of my obedience and actings amongst men , and think I shall be safe thereby : but when they shall publiquely declare , They scorn the Petition of RIGHT , and will neither maintain that nor any other Laws or compacts amongst the men of this Nation , but what flows daily from their wils and pleasures ; I shall alter my minde , and expect no benefit by the Petition of RIGHT ; but when that is , let me tell you , I shall rather desire to live in Turkie under the great Turk , then in England under your Religious Masters at White-hall and Westminster , for there is no such Tyrant or persecuter in the world , as an Apostate , that one turns his back of Justice , Righteousness and truth : But Mr. Peter , as for things at present , tell your Masters from me , That if it were possible for me now to chuse , I had rather chuse to live seven years under old King Charls his government , ( nothwithstanding their beheading him as a Tyrant for it ) when it was at the worst before this Parliament , then live one year under their present Government that now rule : nay , let me tell you , If they go on with that tyranny they are in , they will make Prince Charl● have friends enow , not only to cry him up , but also really to fight for him to bring him into his Fathers Throne , that so they may have their just desires of perfidious cruel bloody Tyrants , and the people of the Land some ease and rest from their insupportable burthens and oppressions : Yea , and for my particular , I must aver unto you , I had rather by many degrees chuse to live under a regulated and wel-bounded King without tyrannie , then under any Government with Tyranny . Here is the substance of my discourse with Mr. PETER , saving I pinched him a little particularly upon his great Masters large fingering of the Common-wealths money , which was no better then Theft in them , and State-Robbery in the highest , ( as I told him . ) I but , saith he , ●reton hath got none : Then , said I , former Reports are false ; and besides , if he have not , what need he , when his Father-in-law gets so much for them both , as 3 or 4000 l. per annum at one clap ; with well-nigh twenty thousand pounds worth of wood upon it , if Parliament mens relations may be beleeved : besides , the People that know them , know the Father and Son piss both in one gullie ; though they seem somtime to go one against another , yet it is but that they may the more easily and throughly drive on the main design of them both : viz. To make the People slaves . And so farewell Mr. Peter . Finis .