An end of one controversie: being an answer or letter to Master Ley's large last book, called Light for smoke. One of the Assembly at Westminster. Which he writ lately against me. In which the sum of his last book, which relates to the most material passages in it, is gathered up and replied to. / By John Saltmarsh, not revolted (as Master Ley saith) from a pastoral calling; but departed from the Antichristian ministery by bishops, and now a preacher of the Gospel. Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A93589 of text R200756 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E333_17). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 27 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 7 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A93589 Wing S479 Thomason E333_17 ESTC R200756 99861415 99861415 113549 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A93589) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 113549) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 54:E333[17]) An end of one controversie: being an answer or letter to Master Ley's large last book, called Light for smoke. One of the Assembly at Westminster. Which he writ lately against me. In which the sum of his last book, which relates to the most material passages in it, is gathered up and replied to. / By John Saltmarsh, not revolted (as Master Ley saith) from a pastoral calling; but departed from the Antichristian ministery by bishops, and now a preacher of the Gospel. Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. 12 p. Printed by Ruth Raworth for G. Calvert, at the signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the west-end of Paul., London, : 1646. A reply to: Ley, John. Light for smoke (Wing L1883). Annotation on Thomason copy: "Aprill 17th". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Ley, John, 1583-1662. -- Light for smoke. Church of England -- Government -- Early works to 1800. Freedom of religion -- England -- Early works to 1800. Freedom of the press -- England -- Early works to 1800. A93589 R200756 (Thomason E333_17). civilwar no An end of one controversie:: being an answer or letter to Master Ley's large last book, called Light for smoke. One of the Assembly at West Saltmarsh, John 1646 4622 11 0 0 0 0 0 24 C The rate of 24 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2009-01 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2009-01 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion An end of One Controversie : Being an ANSWER OR LETTER To Master LEY's large last Book , called Light for Smoke . One of the ASSEMBLY at Westminster . Which he writ lately against me . In which the Sum of his last Book , which relates to the most material Passages in it , is gathered up and replied to . By JOHN SALTMARSH , not revolted ( as Master LEY saith ) from a Pastoral Calling ; but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops , and now a Preacher of the Gospel . Isai. 5. 20. Wo be to them that put darknesse for light . Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing , and some another : for the Assembly was confused , and the most part knew not wherefore they were come together . Vers . 41. And when he had spoken this , he dismissed the Assembly . London , Printed by Ruth Raworth for G. Calvert , at the signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-end of Paul . 1646. Aprill 17●● The Law of Nature giving a man leave to speak fairly in his owne just defence , and the Law of Grace requiring him to speak zealously in the defence of Truth , I think it equal that this answer to Mr. Ley should be printed . April , 15. 1646. John Bachiler . THE LETTER . SIR , FOr the Controversie in substance betwixt us , I can not think the Truth I defended so weak as to need a new Treatise to bear it up . I see it is otherwise with you , who dare not let your former Books stand by themselves , without another to support them . It is indeed the way of the Popish Schools to fill the world with Volumes and Tomes , and rather to astonish then convince : and this is one thing hath made the world wonder after the Beast . There is no end in making many Books . How hath Truth been carried out of sight from the Reader in the Labyrinth of Replies and Rejoynders . Your self gives us an Experiment in this Book : for , how are you puzled to let the Reader know what was yours , and what was mine at first , and what is yours again , and what was mine afterwards , and what is yours again in answer to mine , and what Truth is after all this . I finde it to be the wisedom of the Spirit of God , to leave the world a sufficiency of Scripture and Truth ; but not to write all , lest the world should not contain it . And Pilate was not amisse in that : What I have written , ( says he ) I have written , when they desired him to write more . So as things being thus , I hope I shall write you as much , if not more , in One Sheet and an half , as you have writ me in Seventeen : for he that writes any thing of Truth , more properly writes much , then he that writes against it , though in more Paper . The Summe of your Book is this . 1. YOur Epistles , which are a competent treatise of themselves , and the very Cisterne of your reasoning , from whence you fill all the other Pages of your Book . 2. The Parts of my Treatise , with your answer , or rather much of your former reply , which in things of most weight is no refutation , but a reference to other Divines , who have writ of the like subject , &c. it seems you have a common stock of learning amongst you , or an Argumentative Treasurie , to which you referre us with much ease ; but I cannot take this for good payment , to be put over to another man , when you are bound to pay me your self : I could turn you over thus to as able Divines as you do me , to Mr. Tho. Goodwin , Mr. Burton , Mr. John Goodwin , Mr. Nye , Mr. Tombes , Mr , Pryun , Mr. Burrough , Mr. White , Mr. Eaton . Mr. Den , Mr. Knolls , &c. 3. The appendix to your book writ by a master of Arts , whether your friend , or your self , for I know not whom you make the two letters C. D. to stand for ; who brings in testimonials of your abilities , learning , piety , good carriage , worth , &c. who methinks speaking so much to your praise as he doth , stands a little too neer you ; we should not seek glory one of another , our praise should be of God , not of men . Thus I have contracted you , to save you some evil in the multitude of your words , now to your matter . ( 1 ) THat they should counsel me , not to cry down the Government . ( 2 ) That no Presbytery Parochial , &c. assumes such power as the Prelatical . ( 3 ) That if the Question were rightly stated , men would be convinced , Magistracie and Christian liberty would be preserved . ( 4 ) That I should restore such Tythes , if unlawful , as I formerly received , because the sin till then is not remitted ( 5 ) That I would have men believe as they list ( 6 ) That he was wished rather to a neglect of me , then a loud Conquest over me . ( 7 ) That he had rather confute Bellarmine , then my new-sprung Notions . ( 8 ) Because I am against Logick and forms of Art , I am no right Disputant . ( 9 ) That I am an Ubiquitary in my Belief , because of the Opinions set down in The Smoke , &c. ( 10 ) That I am an Antinomian , and deals with some late Divines as some with Luther . ( 11 ) That I am unstable . ( 12 ) That I glory in the quick dispatch of my work : To which Tertullian , and some old Poetry , and other Authors , with a Story of a Noble-man and a Brewer , is brought . ( 13 ) That my Interposition is like to be no delay to the Government . ( 14 ) That he may be better employed then in writing : and others shall undertake me . To the first . 1. ARe you in such fears of your Government , that you make friends to me to be silent ? Is it so weak , that it may be cried down ? To the 2. Is Presbytery , because Parochial , Classical , Provincial , lesse Tyrannical then Episcopal , because many rule in that , and in this but one ? or rather not more tyrannical , because one Tyrant is not so much as many together ? Evil in a Community , is stronger and more diffusive then in Vnity . To the 3. Is not the Question of the Presbytery yet stated ? Yea surely : What else hath your Assembly and othersibeen doing ? Is it not a power in your Eldership and Presbyterie , how little or large soever , over the Churches and Congregations ? independent upon the Magistrate , coercive to all that believe not as they believe , as to Heretiks and Schismaticks ? And yet men are not convinced , nor is Magistracy or Christian liberty so preserved as you say : let both the Magistrates and Christians judge , who in the mean time you would be Judges over . To the 4. For my restoring of Tythes , now unlawful to me ; I have done it ; I have returned to the State my property of a full yeers Arrearag : nor did I take Tythes since I was in Kent , but the peoples free composition from the first ; and being even convinced against that too , a yeer since , I forbore it . But take heed how you put forgivenesse of sin upon restitution ; for that is not onely Popery , but like the Pope you would sell pardons onely to the rich , and none to the poor ; and you would put more upon Sacrifice then upon Mercy . To the 5. Nor would I have men believe as they list , as you say of me : I would onely not have men forced to believe as others list , as you or your Brethren list : I would have Faith wrought by the Spirit of God , not by the spirits of men , who have no dominion over Faith . To the 6. And why do you speak so of a loud Conquest over me ? Truth is not conquer'd , when the man is trampled on . It is not your being great , can make you a Conquerer , no more then your calling by the Bishops a true Presbyter . To the 7. And for your desire rather to deal with Bellarmine then me : I did not think I had been so formidable an enemy ; but I will not presume . Indeed Bellarmine is a more easie adversary , because he opposes the Truth ; and I , though a weak one , may be more considerable , because Truth defends me , rather then I the Truth : for I will rather make it my champion , then my self a champion for it . And for my new-sprung Notions ( as you say : ) call Truth Notion , or new , or what you will ; you can never call it out of its own nature or essence : And Truth is Gods own notion ; neither mine nor yours : and new onely to the old man , not to him who after God is created in righteousnesse and true holinesse . To the 8. Nor am I lesse a Disputant in Divinity , because against forms of Art and Logick ( as you say . ) I may dispute in Christs School , though refused in the School of Tyrannus . And if you will chalenge me in any point of Philosophie , I shall not refuse you there in Logick or Forms of Art. They are forms onely for the wisedom of men , not the wisedom of God . Nor dare I take my discoveries of Christ from Reason , nor seek the glory of him in forms so much belowe him , and fashion the Creator like to the Creature , who is God blessed for ever . You and I must die more to vain Philosophie , to the wisedom of the Greek , to the rudiments of the world . I allow Learning its place anywhere in the kingdoms of the world , but not in the Kingdom of God . To the 9. For my being a Vbiquitary ( as you say ) in belief , and your proof of this from the several Opinions stated in my book : Can you be so unfaithful to that Book I Can you , who would be counted an Orthodox , and a Divine , thus force and compel those Opiniont upon me , or not rather upon the Paper onely where they are printed ? Because I stated the Opinions of men , Am I therefore a man of all those Opinions ? The best is , the world may convince you of this , and of my purpose in that : And now you are thus unfaithful in a little , I may suspect you for more . Are you one of those who pretend to be in the mount with God , and to give Laws for Religion ? Can we trust you in the more excellent mysteries of the Father , while you trifle thus and deceive the Brethren ? To the 10. For my being an Antinomian , If to say we serve not in the oldnesse of the Letter , but in the newnesse of the Spirit : If to say , The Law was given by Moses , but grace and truth by Jesus Christ : If to say , We are not under the Law , but under Grace : If to say , We are delivered from our enemies , that we might 〈◊〉 him without fear , in holines and righteousnes : If to say , The Commandment is holy , just , and good : If to say , Shall we sin that grace may abound ? God forbid : If this be Antinomianisme , I am one of that sort of Antinomians I know no other for my part , though you have filled the world with a noise , if this be heresie , so worship we the God of our Fathers ; nor have I misquoted any , but onely singled out that truth from many , in one leaf , before they spoiled it in the next , and like Pilate , who asking onely what truth was , would not tarry by it , but departed . To the 11. And for my unstablenesse : If to be sometimes darknesse , and now light in the Lord : If to put off the old man with the former lusts , and to put on the new : If to come out of Babylon when the Spirit calls : If to adde to faith , vertue ; to vertue , patience ; to patience , godlinesse &c. If to grow in the encreasings of God , to a fulnesse of stature in Christ : If leaving things that are behinde , and pressing to things that are before , be unstablenesse , let me be always thus changing , till he who can onely change our vile bodies , fashion me like unto his own glorious body . To the 12. Nor do I glory I hope in the quick dispatch of what I do : but do not you as well over deliberate , as I over dispatch , and glory in that ? but are you no better acquainted with the Spirit , in the things of God ? Are we to be ever consulting with flesh and blood ? did the disciples and Brethren when they spake the Word of God , tugge first amongst so many School-men ? so many Fathers ? so many moderne Divines ? so many Commentators ? so many old Poets as you do ? Or rather , onely with the Word and Spirit , and power of Christ : and for that of your Poetrie , and your Brewer , I desire not to shew so much of the oldman , or former corruption , as to sparkle so lightly with you . To the 13. For my Interposing , being no delay to the Government ( as you say ) Why do you say then in other places , I presented you wish a former Book , against Mr. Saltmarsh his Remora : And again , Mr. Saltmarsh Quare , to retard the establishment ? I pray now , be friends first with your self , before you bee too much an enemie to the truth , or to me ; and though I cannot stand in the way of the establishment ; I am the least in my Fathers house ; I am but as the flie upon the wheel ; yet truth is mighty , and of that power , as it can weigh heavie upon your Chariot-wheels , when you would be driving into the red Sea of persecution , and pursuing Israel . To the 14. Whereas you say you are wished to be better imployed then in writing , they are your friends indeed that wish so , you cannot be worse imployed I am su●● then in speaking ill of your brethren , in advancing your selves , in Lording it over the heritage , in tryumphing upon the vantage ground of your place , and power ; in applicating , and at the same time judging the Magistrate : or in a word intreating them that they may rule , not you , or your Presbyterie , but whom you allow them from your Prerayterie . And for others undertaking me , as many as please , for I fear not an host , nor a multidude of pen-me● ; I see more for us then against us , I know this present Presbyterie may have many pensioners ; there are such great livings of hundreds a year to spice the government ; the silver shrines had many that cried great was Diana of the Ephesians . Mr. Leys Treatise . 1. THe gradual subordination of Assemblies is made good by the learned book of Mr. Rutherford against the Congregationall Independency . 2. The subordinate Presbyteries are not Churches out of Churches , as yours are , not in such singularity , with free choice , more conveniencie in Parishes , more for preservation of Peace , more agreeable to the Apostles , Acts 15. more authorized by Parliament . That tythes are spoken against by those that scruple not at slander or sacriledge , that they usurpe upon God and his Ministers that alienate them from his Worship and Service . That Old men are more honourable then the Young , therefore called Senators , Elders , Sages ; that Dreams are more glorious then Visions , because of more Communion with God in the sleep , then waking , and because of many divine things revealed in dreams , and that John was old when he had his vision . That it is lawful to jest at misapplication of Scripture by Gods example in Gen. by Eliahs , by others , &c. That the other Church-Government comes not under such tryals of the Parliament as Presbyterie , but is set up without their authority . That Gospel patternes are as much in the letter , as the Legal , because written . That Mr. Prinn , Dr. Bastwick , Mr. Burton , Mr. Lilburne , were cruelly used by the Bishops , Mr. Lilburne whipped from Fleete-Bridge to Westminster , so cruelly , that the cords bruised his shoulders , and made them swel as bigg as a penny loafe ; and the Warden made him be gagged , as if he would tear his jawes . Answer . THat the gradual subordination is made good by Mr. Rutherford , &c. Is this reasoning or reference ? And this you have done all along , referred us either to your self , or some other to answer for you . That your Presbyteries are not so singular , more free , convenient , more peaceable , more Apostolical , more authorized then other Churches : These are good commendations ; but had half so much been proved by the Word , your government had passed before this . For that of sacriledge , and usurpation upon God in alienating tythes ; never did Prelate , no nor Bishop Mountague plead an higher title for tythes . What sacriledge and usurpation to deny tythes ! Where are you ? in the Covenant or no ? is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by ? and will you set up a divine right over that now ? surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for tythes , and leave you to your divine right , and see what the people will pay you . To that of your commending old men and age ; I reverence age , and old men , but not the old man in them . And for dreams being more excellent then visions ; It is a curious speculation , and enough may be said for both ; yet if you take Visions more spiritually , they are more glorious a way of Revelation then that of dreams : but what are these dreams to yours ? Surely reformation in blood , or by persecution , is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacy . Why are you so much in the defence of jeasting , and so serious in your Scripture proofes so it ? take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture ; God and Eliah saw errors more clearly then you or I , who may assoon laugh at the Scripture it self , as something beside it . And for other Church Governments not comming under the tryall of Parliament , nor comming out by their authority , I know not any that would not 〈…〉 lay down the●… Scripture order to that honourable Senate , and rejoyce that they would take it up to discusse , and for not coming out under their authority ; I know none of the rest so ambitious 〈…〉 to solicite them to compell their order upon all their Brethren , and all must be hereticks and schismaticks that will not , though they cannot beleeve so . For Gospel patternes being as much in the letter as the Legal , because written , are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament ? Know you not that the Temple or Legal worship before was said to be in the Oldnesse of the Letter ? Know you not that Gospel patternes are more seen by the Spirit now then before ? and though both be written , and in Letter , yet not both equally litterall , but the one more glorious in the ministration , the other l●sse . For that of the sufferers , Mr. Prynn , Mr. Burton , Mr. Lilburn , and Mr. Baestwick ; And Mr. Lilburne written in such capitall letters of blood , as you justly say ; and can you name these , and call for the power in your hands as you do ? Can you thus remember Prelates , and yet petition to be such Presbyters ? Can you see these yet bleeding , and desire to persecute by such a President of Blood ? FOr Salmasius his testimony , with the Baptisme in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ : and his testimony that the Presbyterie is but of humane and positive right , not of divine ; He is mine , and not yours , and all your pains and quarrelling , and after quotations , cannot make him more yours , or lesse mine ; and it is no little disadvantage to you , that one so great a Schollar , as your whole Assembly affords any , hath thus witnessed with the truth , which so many Schollars oppose . C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book , in Master Ley's Commendation : whether made by himself , or some other , he best knows . HIs Title is , One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster . And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren He was chosen Chair-man of the Committée of examination of Ministers , and of the Committée of Printing ; and one of the Triers , and one of the Ordainers of Ministers ; next after the two Doctors , Chair-man . [ I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles . You might have known him by his Patern of Pietie , his Book on the Sabbath ; by divers Sermons of his in Print , his Annotations on the Pentateuch : and he hath much more prepared for the Presse then is already printed : All which are approved by those most able to judge of judicious and learned Labours . [ Give them leave to speak themselves in this point . The Gréek Anagram made on his name when President of Sion Colledge ; THE SUN IN SION ; with Verses . [ If the Sun be there , why no more Light there then ? For his Name , you would think it too venerable &c. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace ; and Ley in Spanish , the Law . With some Letters in his Commendation , in pag. 19 , 20 &c. THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concerns you materially , and your friend printed on the backside of yours : And for other particulars more substantial , your Books and mine are both abroad ; let them speak for themselves : the Readers must now judge in the Spirit , what we both write in the letter ; for I intend not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversie . Some Truth may be seen : and what is more , is but you and I. SIR , I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world : but since you printed them once over in mistake , I thought I might print them over in a clearer letter , that you may see things for Errours , which before you took for Truths . Conclusion . THus I have replied to your Positions , not to your passions nor repreaches ; in which you are something larger than I had thought becomes an Orthodox Divine . And for the dirt you cast in my face , I have onely wiped it off , without casting it back on yours : I had rather let it fall in the Chanel , which best becomes it . For your Revilings , sleight●ngs and railings , if they trouble not your self to write , the Presse to ●●●int , and the Reader to reade , I promise you they trouble not me . And though I am much belowe many , yet I am in this above you , by how much he that can pardon , is greater then he that offends . I thank you for your ill ●sage you cannot do that against me which works not for my good ; for I am learning to blesse them that curse me , to pray for them that despitefully use me . And truely this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not , To tax my self of the many other faultes which I have indeed , which you and the world see not . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A93589e-430 Eccles. 12. 12. Joh. 21. 25. In Epistles to Sir William Strickland●●d M. Grimston , and in Epist. to my self . Eph. 4. 4. Epist. p. 1. p. 12. p. 13. p. 19. 20. p. 25. 26. p. 40. p. 62. p. 82. to 9. to 21. 3. 4. Act. 2. 5. 6. Pag. 4. ☜