A Welsh narrative, corrected, and taught to speak true English, and some Latine. Or, Animadversions on an imperfect relation in the perfect diurnall, Numb. 138. Aug.2. 1652. Containing a narration of the disputation between Dr Griffith and Mr Vavasor Powell, neer New-Chappell in Mountgomery-shire, July 23. 1652. Griffith, George, 1601-1666. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A85699 of text R206748 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E675_10). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 66 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 15 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A85699 Wing G1999 Thomason E675_10 ESTC R206748 99865854 99865854 118105 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A85699) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 118105) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 104:E675[10]) A Welsh narrative, corrected, and taught to speak true English, and some Latine. Or, Animadversions on an imperfect relation in the perfect diurnall, Numb. 138. Aug.2. 1652. Containing a narration of the disputation between Dr Griffith and Mr Vavasor Powell, neer New-Chappell in Mountgomery-shire, July 23. 1652. Griffith, George, 1601-1666. [2], 26 p. Printed by A.M. for John Browne at the guilded Acorn in S. Pauls Church-yard, London : 1653 [i.e. 1652] Thomason recieved his copy Sept. 20, 1652. Annotation on Thomason copy: "Sept. 20". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Powell, Vavasor, 1617-1670. -- Perfect diurnall. Griffith, George, 1601-1666. -- Bold challange of and itinerant preacher. Dissenters, Religious -- England -- Early works to 1800. A85699 R206748 (Thomason E675_10). civilwar no A Welsh narrative, corrected, and taught to speak true English, and some Latine. Or, Animadversions on an imperfect relation in the perfect Griffith, George 1652 11717 5 0 0 0 0 0 4 B The rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-03 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2008-03 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Welsh Narrative , Corrected , And taught to speak true English , and some Latine . OR , ANIMADVERSIONS On an Imperfect Relation in the Perfect Diurnall , Numb. 138. Aug. 2. 1652. Containing a NARRATION Of the DISPUTATION Between Dr Griffith and Mr Vavasor Powell , neer New-Chappell in Mountgomery-shire , July 23. 1652. Pruritus Disputandi fit Scabies Ecclesiae . Henr. Wotton Mil. LONDON : Printed by A.M. for John Browne at the guilded Acorn in S. Pauls Church-yard . 1653. Reader , be plesed before thou readest to correct these faults , and other mistakes which are through the Printers negligence . Page 3. l. 3. reade praesertim . l. 38. r. Art. 23. p. 6. 1. 14. r. Propagation . p. 11. l. 11. r 1652. and l. 27. r. ingenuous , p. 12. l. 22. r. assistants . p. 15. l. 16. r. Congregation p. 16. l. 8. r. Asaph . p. 16. l. 25. for or r. of p. 18. l. 17. del. comma . l. ult r. Merioneth . p. 19. l. 2. 3. r. Dirge's . p. 20. l. 7. r. ashamed . p. 21. l. 19. r. severall p. 23. l. ult. r. Scripture . ANIMADVERSIONS on an Imperfect Relation IN THE Perfect Diurnal , Numb. 138. Aug. 2. 1652. I Presume it is the Printer that saith it , [ I have given you a short and exact Narrative of that meeting , and the Disputes then held for your satisfaction . ] But I must tell him , That it is neither exact , nor satisfactory : As he is abused himself , so he is made an instrument to abuse others . It is short indeed , that is , of Truth and Ingenuity , and consequently short also of exactnesse . Montgomery 27. July 1652. Nar. The news that filleth all mouths at present in these parts , is the late Dispute between Dr Griffith , and M. Vavasor Powel at New-Chappel in Montgomery : That day appointed was July 23. The Doctor promised a Sermon , but performed not . Anim. It is an ill sign , a bad omen when you begin to faulter from truth , and fail in your exactness so soon in the very beginning , specially in a circumstance impertinent to your undertaking , only to shew your rancour and itch to cast aspersions on the Doctor . To whom was it that he promised a Sermon , Can you tell ? If you cannot tell to whom , you must be forced to acknowledge , to no body as you know : and so you can alledge no promise ; and where no promise was , no performance on that behalf was to be expected . I was present my self when the Gentleman that built the Chappell , moved the Doctor in it , when there was some speech of the Dispute intended , saying , I hope you will bestow a Sermon on us : The Doctour replied , that he could not promise ; for his indisposition of health , and weakness of body was such , that if any thing else was done , he could not hope to be able to hold out to preach , and this in the hearing of divers Gentlemen of note and credit . Nar. The place appointed could not contain the people , therefore they were fain to have the Disputation without doors : When they were setled on both sides , the Doctor would go on with the Disputation in Latine — Animad . In giving an exact Narrative , it was necessary you should have told , what the Doctor said and did , and for what reasons then expressed ; and not involved all in one generall phrase , The Dr. would have Latin . And therefore seeing you have omitted so prolix a passage , the ground and foundation of all that which you call a Dispute ; give me leave truly to inform the Reader . The Doctor first turned himself unto the company , and spake to this effect : This unusuall concourse of people met together bodeth some extraordinary expectation , and speaketh the occasion to be unusuall . A strange thing , a wonder scarce heard of in an age , to hold a solemn Academicall Disputation in the Country , a sphere not proper for it . He observed , that the company met together , consisted of three sorts of men ; Many professed Scholars that expected satisfaction in the way of Learning : Divers Gentlemen of rank and quality , who though not professed Artists , yet no strangers to the Sciences and wayes of Disputation ; and their expectation also he conceived might be the same : The third sort unlearned women and illiterate men , that knew not how to judge of such matters : His desire therefore was unto this meaner sort , that they would have a little patience , while they should dispute , as was agreed , more Academico , promising that whatsoever passed , it should faithfully be declared unto them in the way and language they were capable of . Hereupon M. Powel and his company began to cry out , English ; but the better sort , if not the greater number , Latin : In this time of noise , M. Powell said somewhat of Prayer ; the Doctor replied , That was not unthought of , nor should be forgotten : Then in prosecution of his desire to give satisfaction to the principall part of the Assembly , he went on thus ; Age igitur , accingamur ad opus : Seduti solent in Scholis disputaturi , nihil aggredi , presertim in re Theologicâ , insalutato numine , brevi saltens Precatiunculâ Ordiamur . Suscipe causam mean , in quantum etiam tua est , O Domine susceptor meus , adversus omnes eos , quicontra te tuosque , & veritatem tuam insurgunt . Tu qui via es , & veritas & vita , deduc nos in viam tuam in quâ ambulemus ; ut spiritus tuus deducat nos in omnem veritatem , & veritas tua ostendat nobis vitam & salutare tuum . Illumina intellectus nostros , ut in lumine tue videamus lumen , ut in lumine gratiae thae perducamur ad lumen gloria thae , & in lumine verbi tui videamus & despiciamus lumen illud scientiaesaecularis & naturae . Da Sedium tuarum assistricem sapientiam , ut divinam voluntatem tuam rectè intelligamus , & fideliser & studiosè excquamur , per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum . Amen . The Prayer ended , ( wherein M. Powel twice indeavoured to interrupt the Doctor , in loud English , ) the Doctor began to repeat and state the Questions in Latin : but M. Powel and his company began to clamour , and others on the other side to require the contrary to what they cried out for . The Doctor to prevent all occasion of tumult , M. Powell withall yeelding unto him in point of learning , condescended to repeat the Questions as they were proposed to him by M. Powell in English . Quest . 1. Whether your Calling or Ours be most Warrantable , and nearest the Word of God ? Quest . 2. Whether your mixt Wayes or our Wayes of Separation , be nearest the Word of God ? The Doctor told him , that in regard they were comparatively propounded , they could not be clearly and well disputed of in that way ; and therefore either of them was to be reduced to distinct and positive Conclusions . In the first Question two Propositions , the one Affirmative , the other Negative , 1. The Calling of the Ministers of the Gospel in the Church of England is warrantable and according to the Word of God . This he said was in terminis the Confession of our Church , Acts 23. and attested unto by all the Reformed Churches in their Confessions . 2. Your Calling ( if opposite to and distinct from this ) is not warrantable nor according to the Word of God . Then added , That he came not there to alledge any thing against their Calling , untill they gave him fuller account of it , what it was ; when M. Powel declared himself , what his opinion is , whether Erastian , Socinian , Brownist , Anabaptist or Enthusiast , he would consider what to say unto it : In the mean time he stood only to defend the Doctrine of that Church whereof he is a Minister and member . In the second Question are two Conclusions also : 1. The first Affirmative . Our Parochiall , which you call mixt Congregations , are according to the Word of God . This concerns the Discipline of the Church , setled and establised by Laws both of Church and State , avowed in the practice of all Christian Churches . The second Negative , 2. Your wayes of Separation are not according to the Word of God . M. Powell approved well of the Doctor's cleerness in thus opening the Questions . When it was expected M. Powell should begin the Dispute , he desired he might have the liberty to propose some Rules , as he called them , and they were three : 1. That nothing which should passe in that Dispute , should be made publike ( he meant I beleeve , set out in Print , ) without knowledge and consent of both parties . The Dr. assented readily , and hath exactly observed the Rule : whether they have done so or no , this Narrative is a sufficient testimony . 2. That the Dispute might be held in the spirit of love and meekness . Which the Dr. assented unto also , and performed accordingly . He leaveth them to answer for themselves , and all true lovers of truth and peace to judge between them . 3. The third proved to be no Rule , but a tempting Question : In what capacity do you stand there , as an Episcopall man or a Presbyterian ? The Dr. replied , that that was nothing to the Question , but if he had any thing to say against either , he would answer for either . But M. Powell still pressed , Whether are you ? The Dr. answered , I am both ; if you will needs know , I am an Episcopall Presbyterian . Then M. Powell repeated his words : So there was an end of the Rules . Then he went on ( as you might expect , being past his Rules ) irregularly , using all means and artifices he could devise to evade and desert his Question , which in fine he did wholly ; professing , that he had nothing to say against the Church of England , or the Calling of her Ministers : but he was only against such as abused their Calling . And thereupon he proposed another Question , Do you undertake to defend the corrupt part of the Ministry ? The Doctor answered , No : he was accountable for no man's errors , neither would he defend his own , when they were made to appear unto him to be errors . And to evidence that personall miscarriages did not abate the Calling , he instanced in Judas , who was an Apostle , though he were withall a Devil . Whereunto M. Powell very wisely replied , Will you be Judas then ? What return was given him by a stander by , you may remember if you please : but the Doctor made no answer , demeaning himself as became him in Christian meekness , despising such obloquies . Narrat . But because that would give no satisfaction to the people , for whose sake chiefly the Disputation was intended , is was concluded it should be in English . Animad . How it was concluded , and upon what ground , is told you before . But you irrationally conclude , before you had delivered the premises : Such is your exactness . By the People surely you mean here the ignorant only ( for all the knowing part of the Company were of the contrary minde ) and to intend satisfaction by way of disputation , to such as do not know what belongeth to disputation , is a senseless device . The Doctor sure had some interest in the intention , as challenged to be a party and an actor in the Dispute , and he should best know his own intentions in it : And I heard him say , he had no mean regard to M. Powel's satisfaction , who expresseth so much doubt in his Letter , if the Latine of it will bear any construction . As for M. Powel's intentions , they are also best known unto himself . But it should seem by you , that all he aims at is , to be well thought of by the Ignorant , and applauded by the multitude : And much good may it do him with his popularity . Narrat . The Doctor being desired to pray , prayed in Latin : the greatest part of the people accounted what he said little better then a latin mass . An. It is not true that any request was made unto him ; there was indeed an intimation only of the fittingnesse of praying upon such an occasion , which the Doctor presently apprehended and conformed unto : Your glosse and censure on his prayer is both arrogant and uncharitable . Arrogant in assuming to your self to know the hearts of the greater part of the company , what they privately thought of it : then uncharitable in endeavouring to cast the aspersion of Popery upon it . It is well known the Doctor was ever of another strain , and hath withstood Popery both by writing and preaching for above these twenty years , as much as any Minister in Wales . Your preachers are in the consequence good agents for the Papists : it is too evident Popery is more improved amongst us since the indiscreet execution of the late Act of Propogation , then it was in above twenty years before . The prayer it self , because there are copies of it given by some that took notes there , you have here given you to prevent mistakes . It will vindicate it self to all undepraved judgements from all kind of reference either to Mass or Popery . Narrat . The Doctor being asked whether be stood there in the capacity of an Epispocall man , or a Presbyter , &c. answered . &c. — An. Of this passage you have a fuller account then here is given before in its proper place : wherein M. Powel's drift was easily discerned , hoping to finde by this means an occasion to discover some diversity or opinions in the Moderator and the Doctor : but the design failed . Narrat . The Doctor brought along with him M. Hildersham , a Presbyterian , to be Moderator , who was altogether on the Doctors side . An. True it is that M. Hildersham came along to the place with the Doctor , as did many others , whom he did not bring , but they rather did bring him to the place , as it is usual with friends . Neither did M. Hildersham come as a Moderator , for there was another able and well known Orthodox Divine of the neighbourhood desired to do that office for the disputants , who had also in part promised to be there upon the day , and the Doctor did rely upon it . But as he was taking horse that morning , a gentleman delivered him a letter from his intended Moderator , excusing himself in regard some urgent occasion had intervened , which necessarily called him another way . Upon this occasion M. Hildersham being their in place , and known to be fit for such an employment , both for his integrity and learning , was desired by the Doctor to take the place upon him ; and so you have the truth , which you failed in the delivering . What M. Hildersham is , is well known throughout the land , a grave , learned , Orthodox Divine : what his opinion is in point of Church-government ( for that is all shou'd rationally be understood by your stile of Presbyterian , though happily you may seem uncharitably to extend it further ) he is able to give you a full and just account when he shall be lawfully required to do it . True it is , he esteemeth of the Doctor as of his brother and friend , but not so as to side with him in any error : Amicus Plato , sed magis amica veritas : and if you be remembred , M. Hildersham did voluntarily . when he was desired to moderate , professe that he would do it to the best of his understanding impartially : So that your saying the Moderator was altogether on the Doctors side , inferreth that the truth also was altogether on his side , inferreth that the truth also was altogether on his side , at leastwise in the Moderators judgement ; for otherwise he professed to become his adversarie , if he said or maitained any thing against the Truth . Narrat . M. Powel would have justified the communion of Saints in gathered Churches , which is called Separation : but the Doctor would be respondent for his own Calling and parish . An. Both parts here are misreported ; although for substance it be not much material , yet men should speak but truth in mean matters : I do not remember that the Communion of Saints was so much as spoken of in this instant : Neither did the Doctor assume any undertaking for his Parish ? But when M. Powell would have waved the first Proposition , and go to the next , or haply to that of Separation , which it should seem he had most mind unto ; the Doctor bid him keep to the Question , and either take the Propositions in order , or let them all alone . Narrat . That the people might not be disappointed , Mr. Powell was content , signifying to the Doctor that his Arguments would have reflexion upon his person , which he had endeavoured to shun . Animad . What M. Powell endeavoured to shun appeareth plainly by the story , that is , disputing of the Question which he himself propounded , and therein the people were altogether disappointed of their expectation : For they expected the Ministry of the Church of England should have been disabled by him , and then the way had been open to the new Discipline . But M. Powel's reflecting upon the Doctor's person was a manifest design . And the Arguments shew it , that it did not only reflect upon him by a secondary diverted motion , but directly aimed to reproach him out of a depraved intention . That party looketh on the Doctor , as a man standing in the gap before them . Nar. The Doctor became Respondent , and M. Powell urged a Syllogisme against his Ministry , which wast his ; They that are not qualified , elected and ordained according to the Word of God , they have not their call from God . But you are not qualified , elected and ordained according to the Word of God , Therefore you have not your Calling from God . Animad . Became ! How ? by some new change of the Scene ? was he not Respondent from the beginning ? He undertook not at all to oppose , but only to answer , as he was challenged . As for the Syllogisme , the Conclusion is inverted , and it is not against his Ministry , but intended only against his interest in the Ministry . But let it pass . Nar. The Doctor said it was a false Syllogisme , because it consisted of Negatives . The Moderator , Priests , Scholars on their side triumphed , because the Syllogisme was false respect of the form : The Hearers approved of the matter ; but the Doctor , Moderator and Scholars on that side , would by no means allow of the Syllogisme — . Animad . The Doctor excepted against the Syllogisme , as false , consisting of all Negatives ; and he stil persisteth in it against all the new Artists , affirming that no such Syllogisme was ever allowed of in Disputation . As for the triumphing as ye ignorantly call it , ( it was not a triumph , but a deservedly caused laughter ) it did not follow immediately upon the Doctors excepting against the Syllogisme ( for then all was husht , and all expected that M. Powell should either alter or 〈◊〉 it : ) but on another passage which intervened , and you have very wittinglly and for shame left it out . Give me leave for setting of things right to call it to your remembrance , if you have forgotten it . M. Powell persisting in his error or opinion of the Syllogisme , was desired by the Doctor , to tell him in what Mood and Figure it was ; and he after some pause and consideration answered , that it was in Barbara : and thereupon was raised that generall laughter , which you are pleased to call triumphing : an absurdity so gross , that it deserved hissing . Narrat . So through this cavilling Ignorance M. Powell was much obstructed in arguing . Animad . You say very right , M. Powell was much obstructed in arguing , so that he knew not what to say , nor which way to turn himself , being so extremely laughed at : all he could say in this passage was cavilling , and that occasioned by his Ignorance , Ignorance of the first Elements of Art and Logick ; every Freshman can say , Ass●rit A , Negat E , sed universaliter Ambae , and Syllogizari non est ex particulari . Neve Negativis rectè concludere si vis . And Ignorance of the grounds of Art : Shall I give you a reason why a negative Syllogisme concludeth nothing ? because the inference dependeth wholly upon the relation and dependance between the Termes , and that dependance cannot appear , except it be affirmed in one of the premises . But let me say what I will , you still plead Art , and Authority for your Ignorance . For shame ! Is it not enough for you to bely the living , and abandon reason , but ye must abuse the Arts and defame the dead ? They were not , I mean Keckerman and Burgersdicius , sush silly Artists , as you make your selves and them too . I have neither of the Authors by me ; therefore I pray you lock on them again , and examin them . It may possibly be , the Printer hath deceived you ; or it may be , you do not better ( that is , not well enough ) understand theirs , then other mens Latine . I shall tell you anon my conjecture , who in probability might be the contrivers of this doughtie Narrative , but will first indeavour to shew you the grosseness of this Ignorance that obstructed M. Powell , by some examples . What say you to this Syllogisme , No unreasonable Creature is to be taken to be in Capacity to Dispute : But A M , or V.P. is not an unreasonable Creature . Ergo , A.M. or V.P. is not to be taken to be in Capacity to dispute ? Fort the Major I refer my self to the Mr Replicants in the last Act at Oxford , whose first Thesis in Comitiis was ; Bruta non possunt ratiocinari . The Minor I refer unto themselves . So what remaineth but that they either except against the Syllogisme , and so I have my desire : or deny the Conclusion ; and that would make them more ridiculous , and that I would not wish my greatest enemy . Or what say you to another ? Suppose the Dr. had urged thus against your Separation , That which is according to the Word of God , is not to be spoken against . Your way of Separation is not to be spoken against . Ergo Your way of Separation is not according to the Word of God . I doubt not but M. Powell may as well finde a Barbara for this in the second Figure , as for the other in the first , which consisted all of Negatives ; and I will expect his answer when he hath studied the Question a little better . One more yet , because it may concern or come into the hands of some Divines , Nulla Creatura est Deus . Nulla , i.e. ne una quidem Personarum in Trinitate . neque Pater , neque Filius , neque Spiritus Sanctus est Creatura . Ergo Nulla , sive ne una Personarum in Trinitate , neque Pater , neque Filius , neque Spiritus Sanctus est Deus . Is not this fine work for an Atheist , an Arrian , or Macedonian heretick ? And can ye be stall in love with your new Logick ? If this will not convince them of their Ignorance , I think I may well enough be excused for saying any more . Only one humble request I have to make unto the Parliament , that when Red Castle is made an University ( as there was some talk of it not long since ) Mr. A.M. or V.P. may be the Logick Professors , upon condition , that he teach the young Sophisters this secret not yet revealed unto the world , of making good Negative Syllogismes in Barbara ; I confesse , it is a hard task , but they may be rewarded out of my Tythes , and others ejected Dunces and antiquated Logicians . Narrat . Though the form of the Syllogismo be very true according to the Rules of Art and the Authority of the best Logicians , as Keck . Burgers . Animad . This is answered , I beleeve , sufficiently already , And I shall adde no more ; but only acquaint you by the way , that it is on this passage I ground my conjecture I spake of , concerning the Author of this exact Narrative , Suo ipsius indicio periit Sorex . Teren. For this piece agreeth exactly , as face answereth face , with a Note which was shewed me taken out of M. Mosiyn's exposition at Poole , 1 Cor. 1. July 25. 1552 Some of you were at the Dispute . To that which was informed upon , we have since consulted with the best Logicians in these later dayes : They say it was true according to Logick , and Arts in Universities , and Scholars , and form , &c. I trouble you with no more of his silly nonsense vented the next week again at Oswestrie , Aug. 1 , 1652. The Narrative , ye see , is grounded on the same consultation with Logicians , and so sent up , contrary to their own rule , without consulting the Doctor . The matter is fully cleered before ; I leave the Arts , Universities and Scholars to speak for themselves , who can soon vindicate themselves from the reproach and scandal such Ignorance can cast upon them . In the mean time , they must take this notice from me , that the Separatists are upon disclaiming all interests in Arts , and Universities , and Scholars : For what said M. Mostyn in his preachment July 25. We did not stand upon Logick , but by the Truth ; what is to sway us but Scriptures ? An ingenious confession , We did not : And ye do not yet , it seems . If ye stand not upon Logick , we are to expect but small account of any other Art or Science from you . For Logick is Ars Artium , the Key and Gate or Entrance into all the rest ; and if ye care not for the Arts , ye are not for Universities : and take away Universities , and then farewell Scholar . You stand not upon Logick ! you Animal , you stand not upon reasoning then , and yet you take upon you to dispute forsooth , that is , to prate without reason . For what else is Logick , but a method , form and rule of reasoning orderly for the perfecting of a mans natural discourse ? but that you stand not upon . What then ? But by the Truth . What ? do you swear ? Or it may be , you mean , you●… and by the Truth . You do indeed , as Contraries , juxt a se posta : And your falshood maketh it to appear brighter and more glorious ; your daily prating instead of Preaching , hath made God's word very precious amongst us : And one Orthodox true Sermon is more set by now , then an hundred heretofore ; such is the famine of the Word , which you have caused by your propagating the Gospel . What is to sway us but Scripture ? My friend ! Is Logick no help to the interpreting , and applying of Scripture ? Let me tell you , that what the Lawyer faith of his profession , is very true of yours and mine , Scire Leges non hoc est , earum verba tenere , sed vim & potestatem . It is not your potting of text , wherein by the help of a Concordance the word Separate may be found , that proveth your Tenents ; but you should demonstrate , that the scope and meaning of the Text is pertinent to your purpose . And that you can never do without reason and Logick . But enough of this unreasonable ●●uff and folly of yours . Narrat . The Doctor formed the Syllogisme in a way which himself liked , and so the Disputation went on . Animad . The Doctor formed the Syllogisme , that 's true indeed ; but you misreport the occasion , not his own humour or liking , but because M. Powell and his assistance could not do it , and that the disputation might be no longer obstructed through their ignorance . For you may remember , if you please , that when they were at a stand , the Doctor sid , I partly know what you would have , and if you cannot form your Argument into a good Syllogisme , I will help you , which accordingly he did , and thus he is requited for his pains . May he be so serv'd again for me , when he doth them any such curtesie against himself . Narrat . M. Powell took the first particular in the Syllogisme and proved , That the Doctor was not qualified , because he was not qualified with the gift of Prayer , in regard be used the same set form of Prayer for many years together before and after Sermon , which he alwayes read . Forms of Prayers are to supply the want of the Gifts , so the Doctor wanted the Gift , and was not qualified . The Dr. denied that a form of Prayer did exclude the gift of Prayer . Animad . Here are some things of your own putting in to shreds of the Dispute . You put in 1. For many years together ; It was not said then , and your saying it now is an untruth . The Dr. hath used many forms of Prayer , and all he useth , he alrereth on occasions : And he doth it upon a grounded perswasion , that it is the most edifying way , and most usefull and convenient for the people . 2. You put in , which he alwayes read : An untruth too , and intended for a calumny , the Lord forgive you . 3. Forms of prayers are to supply the want of gifts . No such thing then spoken of ; and I need not trouble my self here impertinently to examine it . There are more uses then one of set prayers . Neither will I trouble the reader with all the passages in urging this Argument , which in effect do signifie as much as nothing . All was fully answered in that compendious Position of the Doctors : The use of forms of Prayer doth nor exclude the gift of Prayer . Against which Mr. Powell offered not any proof . And for the Doctors personall qualification in this particular , he hath given sufficient testimony , that he hath one gift more then his opponents have amongst them all , to wit , The gift of praying in True Latine . Narrat . M. Powell desired that he would answer the force of the Argument , and produce Scriptures for his deniall , that his words might satisfie the people . Animad . Grant this passage to be true in substance ( in expression it is not ) it maketh little or nothing for the Opponents credit . When the Doctor had denied the major proposition , which was this , He that useth a Form of Prair , hath not the gift of Prayer , It was a senselesse demand , or a miserable shift in him to call for an answer to the force of his Argument ; whereas the denying of the Proposition did plainly shew it to be of no force . For what force can there be in falsse premisses : And an unreasonable thing to require Scripture of a Respondent for every thing he denieth ! The truth is this , When M. Powell knew not how to prove the Proposition denied , he would have the Doctor to shew a reason why he denied it ; who replied , It was reason sufficient , that it was false ; and it was the Opponent's part to prove the contrary . Then came the Assistants in to help , Mostyn , Nevet , Edwards , confidently affirming , it was usuall in the School to require a reason for the denying of any Proposition ( M. Nevet indeed said he had heard it ; ) The Scholars on the Doctors part , being many of both Universities , decried it . The Moderator also telling them , they insisted on a thing unheard of , and in it self unreasonable . The Doctor himself put an end to this impertinent debate , who told them he had some reason to know the laws and use of disputation , as most there , and he never knew of any reason required for the denying of any simple Proposition , nor of the denying of any consequence , untill the Argument be grown to too great a bulk in proving consequence upon consequence . For when one argueth Enthymematically , and his consequence is denied , his way to prove it is per rationem Consequentiae , which being made the Antecedent layeth the ground of another Enthymeme , the whole former Argument making the Conclusion ; And so forward , Argument after Argument , and Enthymeme by Enthymeme , untill it come to eleven . By that time the Conclusion consisting of all that went before , will be grown so great and full , that a weak memory can scarce retain or well remember it . Therefore when it was come to that pitch , the use was to require a reason of the deniall of the last consequence . If a reason was given , the Opponent was to endeavour to shew it to be invalid ; If no reason given , it was free then for the disputant to return to his first Antecedent , and go on to prove it . Against this the Opponents had nothing to object , and so desisted . But M. Powell asked the Doctor , By what Scripture he could prove a Form of Praier ? For that 's altogether M. Powell's disputing , asking Questions : The Doctor answered , It was sufficiently authorized , Luk. 1. where our Saviour taught his Disciples a Form of Praier : M. Powell replied , Our Saviour wrought miracles , will you work miracles ? It was answered , No , it did not follow ; Our Saviours precepts and other imitable actions are different from his Miracles . Narrat . The Doctor , Moderator , and Scholars on their side , had not one word to speak . Animad . Sure , if they were silent , it was in expectation of some proof from M. Powell of his Proposition , but none came ; And so if you had meant to speak truth , you should have said , that neither M. Powell nor his Assistant Mostyn , nor M. Nevet that prompted both , had one word to say ; And so it would have followed more rationally in your Narrative Narrat . Then M. Powell went on to the second particular of his Syllogism , and proved that the Doctor was not rightly elected . Animad . Went on and proved ? Nay , stay there ; that is not yet done , your meaning is , He did his endeavour , as the man did that threshed in his Cloak . But I had almost forgotten to put in minde of another passage by the by , which you would have called triumphing , if you had conceived it fit to be mentioned . Was there not a generall laughter justly raised , when M. Powell thinking to approve himself sententious and learned , chanted it aloud , Debet mendacem esse memorem ? Sed transeat hoc cum cateris erroribus . Narrat . That he that is rightly elected , is elected by a Congregation of Saints . But you are not elected by a Congregation of Saints , Ergò . The Doctor denied the minor , saying , He was elected by Saints ( when as indeed he was placed there by the Bishop , and imposed upon them , rather then chosen by them . ) Animad . This last clause or Parenthesis was no part of the dispute . Sorry they were sure , that it was then omitted , and therefore they have here inserted it , after Consultation in the Narrative . Somewhat they must say to the dead Bishop , as well as to the living Doctor . But God be thanked , the Survivor is able to answer for both . You should have considered , that the Election here disputed against , was his Election to the function or Ministery , and that 's a different act from his Election to a place or charge wherein to exercise his Ministry . In regard these men are so forward to seek to deprave the Doctor on this behalf , he is ready to give the world an account if need be of either : For present satisfaction I have with importunity extorted from him out of publike instruments this brief account of his Elections . His Election to his Calling or Ministery was in Oxford , by the Society whereof he was a member , and continued so to be untill he was Bachelor in Divinity . Then for the exercise of his Calling he was elected by the University , and sent by expresse license or Commission under their publike Seal , Ad Praedicandum Evangelium per universam Angliam , i. e. to preach the Gospel throughout all England ; A grace not granted unto any , but after performance of the exercises required by Statute in that behalf , that is , Answering in the Divinity Schools , and preaching Quatuor laudabiles Conciones infra Praecinctum Universitatis . He was elected also by a Reverend Prelate the Late Bishop of Asap to be his Domestick Chaplain , and by him presented , by the right invested in him by the Law of the Land , first to the Rectory of New-Town , then of L'landrinio , and lastly to L'lanymynech , where he hath constantly resided these eighteen years , and was received by the respective Parishes with approbation and comfort . How and upon what grounds popular Elections of Bishops and Pastors were devolved to some one or more , eminent in every respective Diocese or Division , with the consent of the people , I will not trouble my self now to shew you . But granting , that a formal Election by vote were necessary in this case ( and the Doctors Academicall Elections are known to be such , all graces passing there by suffrage ) yet M. Powell hath too hard a task of it to unsaint so many ; and that he must do , before he can by this medium inferre any thing against the Doctors calling . Intreat M. Powell to have a charitable opinion or his own Progenitors among the rest . To my knowledge his grandfather and grandmother were of the Doctors charge or flock . Narrat . M. Powell proved the minor thus ; He that is chosen by ignorant and scandalous men is not chosen by Saints . But you are so chosen , Ergò . The Doctor said , his Parishioners were visible Saints . Animad . You heard before what Apology M. Powell made for himself , how sorry he was that his arguments must have reflexion upon the Doctor's person ; but here you see , that without scruple or preface , his zeal doubtlesse set him on against charity at once to scandalize and defame the whole Parish . They are beholding unto him for his unchristian opinion of them , whom he doth not know so much as by ●ace . When they are weary of the Doctor , they have small encouragement to choose him for their Minister , or lift themselves in his Congregation . But you say , the Doctor said , the Parishioners were visible Saints ; wherein you commit a double errour , 1. In not reporting his full answer . 2. In imposing words on him which were not his . The Doctor told you , that the Scripture speaketh of two sorts of Saints , some by speciall Calling and Election of Grace , others by generall vocation to , and profession of the name of Christ . The former we are not to judge of ; The Doctor thought it sufficient to be elected by Saints of the later sort . And for the phrase , visible Saints , it came not from the Doctor , but M. Nevet ( I will not say as Sexeca did of Claudius , Eâ parte , quâ melius loquebatur ) although his back was to the Assembly all the while . Narrat . M. Powell asked , Where be your Saints ? A knowing Gentleman , a Lawyer , of the Doctors Parish , stood up , and M. Powell desired leave to ask him a Question , to know whether he were a Saint : the Question he asked , was , What was the Image of Christ in the soul ? Upon this there was much bustling , and prompting , and doing , yet no Answer came . Animad . The same way of captious arguing ye see still asking Questions ; where are they ? As if , if they were not there to be catechized by him , they must be no where . 'T is true , the Gentleman that stood up is a knowing man , too knowing to be of your ignorant opinions ; The greater your fault , that knowing him to be such , you should so misreport him . As if there were any knowing Gentleman , that knew not how to answer M. Powell . When M. Powell had uncivilly , unjustly branded all the Doctors Parishioners with scandall and ignorance , it was very seasonable and necessary , for so knowing a man to let the company know he was sensible of the obloquy , and to stand up in his own and his neighbours just vindication . M. Powell desired leave to ask him a Question . You say right ; but you should have told the Reader all in an exact Narrative : And therefore have added M. Powell desired of the Doctor leave to ask his Parishioner a Question . It should seem by this addresse , that M. Powell thought the Doctor assumed unto himself such peremptory command and power over his charge , as M. Powell himself doth over his separated Congregation , that no man is to ask them a question , nor they to answer without his leave : The Jesuites mode right , Nihil sine licentia Superiorum . But the Doctor pretends to no such Priviledge ; He is amongst them ( as you know who ) as one that serveth . And therefore replied ; He might do that without his leave . But the gentleman himself well knowing his own liberty , told M. Powell his own leave should be granted before it could be expected he should answer his Question ; but for that time he freely gave it . M. Powell there upon asked him , How is the Image of Christ wrought in the soul ? The Gentleman answered instantly without prompting , Inwardly by the Spirit , outwardly by the Word . M. Powell had nothing to say against the answer : And being out without asking any more leave , asketh another Question , and that you have hit upon ; What is the Image of Christ in the soul ? Whereunto the Gentleman beginning , an answer was immediatly interrupted by M. Powell , crying out scoffingly and without cause , Look how they prompt him : The Gentleman replied , he neither had nor needed any such help to answer M. Powell or any of his assistants : to which assertion divers Ministers and Scholars there present then gave their suffrage and publike testimony . And the Moderator in particular told M. Powell very truly , that the Gentleman had bestowed more time in the University and the waies of study , knowledge and learning , then he or any of his assistance . The Gentleman beleeving M. Powell by his uncivill scoffe , unwilling to receive an answer , offered none afterward directly to that Question : But conceiving himself to have a fair right to retaliate in the way of questioning , specially considering his first condescention to M. Powell , he asked him ( the fittest way to answer such a Questionist ) and that very pertinently to the argument in hand , Whether there were no scandalous persons amongst them ? M. Powell answered , none . The Gentleman again asked , What , no Adulterers ? M. Powell made no answer , nor any for him ; but a stander by , said , yea , adulterers and buggerers too . The company understood his meaning without saying any more . For all the Countrey ringeth of it . &c. the Goals and publike Records of the respective Counties of Denbigh , Montgomery , and Merrion are the ground and evidences of this passage : Whereof I need say no more , I would there were not so much of truth in thus much . But as for the Gentlemen , however these men value his knowledge , I am sure they are indebted to his charity . For I have heard him heartily wish , they could as easily wipe off from their Churches the foul blot of these horrible and monstrous waies of propagation of the Gospel , as he shall the imputation of ignorance in the particular wherewith this false Narrative endeavous to asperse him . Narrat . M. Powell went on to prove he was chosen by ignorant , superstitious and scandalous men . And he did it by instance in a number of his Parishioners , who sang Psalms before a dead corps buried that very morning the dispute was . Animad . It fell out , I mean , this instance , very opportunely , M. Powell had wanted an argument else . To such as it is the Doctor answered . 1. For matter of fact , he knew nothing of it : he was himself at the interring of the body , and he never heard nor knew of any singing either before or after . Neither did he ever give any countenance to such needlesse singing by the way . 2. For the charge it self , Singing of Psalms is neither scandalous nor superstitious , neither do the Papists use such singing ; There is a great deal of difference between Davids Psalms and Dirgo's Trentals , and the like : And a vast difference between the intention in Singing in the Reformed Churches , and the Popish Funerals . It is the opinion and intention or use that formally make the superstition , Singing of Psalms is a spirituall duty or exercise ; and the meer prefence of a dead Corps is no Supersede as unto it . 3. For the consequence or force of the Argument , I shall desire the Reader to observe it . A few of the Doctor's Parishioners did sing Psalms coming to bury a dead corps , July 23 , 1652. Therefore they were superstitious and scandalous that elected him or approved of his election , Mar. 20 , 1633. Except M. Powell prove this wilde consequence , his new Argument brought him by good intelligence that morning fresh and fasting , will stand him in no stead at all for the invalidating of the Doctor's Election by those of whom the most or greater part are Saints in heaven . And he conceiveth himself bound in charity to think so of them . And M. Powel with all his Holinesse is able to produce no colour of evidence to the contrary . Narrat . Upon this they were ashamed : Then the Moderator stood up to help : He propounded this Question , Whether they might not be Saints , though they sung before a dead corps ? Unto which M. Powell answered , It was against the Directory . Animad . Shame in their faces that deserve it . If they were ashed I am sure it was of you , that have hardened your foreheads that ye cannot blush for your lying and impudence . Let the world judge by the whole story who had the cause to be ashamed . And though M. Powel thought himself facete in popping the Moderator in the mouth with the Directory , yet every one that hath any understanding may discern that it doth not reach at all unto the demand or question . The Parishioners were in ill case , if every thing they do against the Directory must presently unsaint them ; And the moderator , and the Doctor in as bad condition , if every thing that 's done in their Parishes unwitting to them , must presently make null their Election and Calling , because it is against the Directory . Narrat . So he past to the third particular in the Syllogism , That he was not rightly ordained . M. Powell urged a Syllogisme to try how they were instructed about Ordination , thus , They who are ordained according to the Word of God are ordained by Apostles or Evanglists : But you are not so ordained , Ergo . The Doctor did adde , or by their successors . Animad . If they had not been better instructed before they came there , they might have returned as wise as they came for any thing of Divinity or other sciences that was to be learned from the opponents ; for they want a great deal of instruction . The Doctor did adde , You are still too short of the exactnesse you professe . You should have said , If you be a scholar specially : The Doctor distinguished of the Apostles considered either in their Persons , or their Office , Commission , and Successor . If M. Powel meant it of the Apostles in their Persons , The Doctor denied the major Proposition , If of them in their office and successors , he denied the minor . As for Evangelists , as such never any writer said that they were intrusted with the Power of Ordination , And if you be remembred , there were proofs given of the necessity of succession , and continuance of a power to ordain . But M. Powell never offered to make any proof of either of the Premises . Narrat . There were many passages too and fro about the succession of the Apostles and Evangelists . Animad . Some there were about Succession of Apostles : But for succession of Evangelists , the Doctor and his friends , I beleeve , never heard of any to continue in the Church . What the passages were you do not tell us : Nor will I trouble my head with recollecting them . If any of them had been such , as might but seemingly be conserved for the advantage of your of your cause and glory of the day on your part , all men may presume , you would not have concealed them . And since you have passed them over in silence , let them lie dead for me . I am confident the Doctor never conceived he could any way improve his credit by disputing with such as you . And I know his Christian temper so well , that he destreth no mans disgrace . Narrat . The Moderator said , the Doctor was infirm in body , which he hinted sevirall times before , and desired an end of the daies disputation . Animad . This is not truly said neither . For about this period he first spake of it , and I do not well remember that he spake of the Doctors infirmity but twice in all . But be it as you will . The matter is not great . It was time to call for an end of the disputation , when after three hours wrangling it was scarce begun . For neither of the Questions proposed were hitherto disputed of , but wholly declined : Only the Doctor and his charge were brought upon the stage , or to a popular bar to be arraigned before an ignorant multitude , or at least made marks for their mighty and sharp arrows , even bitter words . But , God be thanked , you do not finde any enormous crimes laid to any of their charge : and for any thing yet appeareth , they may all be as good Saints , as the best of the New Congregations . For the worst God blesse me from comparing with them . Narrat . M. Powell said , He might choose any other in his stead . But they urged an end , Animad . This passage is not remembred neither by diverse who were present , and would gladly have embraced the opportunity to take up the Cudgels against M. Powell and his brethren : and I am told , that assoon as the Doctors back was turned , there went a young man to one of the bench , and challenged him to try his skill at the same weapon , but was refused . Nar. Nay , said M. Powell we have said nothing for our Ministers , Gifted men , Separation , we desire you to stay . As for the Ministers it was declared how they were gifted , elected , approved . Animad . Truly ye had said as much as comes to nothing all the while . And nothing can be remembred , that you say was declared for the Ministers . All I understood was what M. Powell declared for himself , viz. In the way of his Calling . He had somewhat from the Bishop ; afterward he received Imposition of hands with fasting and prayer by a Presbytery in London ( So M. Powel is an Episcopall Presbyter as well as the Doctor , and there is some hopes they may agree in time , when this youthfull heat is a little over ) By them he was sent to the Assembly of Divines for approbation ( By your favour , if it were so , the course was a little preposterous . For examination and approbation should regularly go before Ordination . ) And lastly allowed he was by the Parliament . The Doctor took his word for his own story . As for any other Ministers , how they were gifted , elected , approved , there was not a word spoken , as either I or any of my acquaintance that were present can remember . Whereby the reader may observe how M. Powell declined wholly both parts of his first comparative Question , alledging nothing against the Ministery he hath so so long traduced , and for amends making his own in nothing different from it : And in that case he might well expect to meet no opposition from sober men . Narrat . As for the gifted men , they were sent forth upon triall . Animad . It may be so ; The Doctor never troubled himself to enquire after them , neither who they were , nor yet how gifted . It may be , you mean , The Smith , Weaver , Capper , Souldier , &c. that are sent about , and well rewarded , to try what they can propagate . Of them there was no more said in effect but this . M. Powell asked , whether it might not be lawfull for a man unordained to preach for triall . It was answered that it was : And it was usual both in the Universities , and before other governours of the Church . Ye● , I have known a Bishop , and he is still living , that would not be induced to lay hands on any stranger , before he had heard him preach . But then the Doctor asked Mr. Powell , how long they were to be Probationers ; how many Sermons would be sufficient for triall , and who to judge ; or to that effect . To which he received no answer . The Tradesmen I now mentioned , have been these two or three years upon their triall , as it seemeth , and are likely to be longer yet for all I know . Narrat . Severall Scriptures were urged for Separation , and how they were necessitated to separate by reason of persecution and corruption in those times . Anim. It is not urging Scriptures that will serve the turn ( never any Heretick so desperate , but could make a shift to do so ) but proving by Scripture , that vindicateth truths , and makes them credible . You would have the world beleeve you did so . But it appeareth partly by your own difference , that it was otherwise . For if it had been so , it would have bin well worth your labour , to have acquainted the Reader with the particular Texts , how applied to the matter in hand , and how answered ; which because you have wholly omitted ( such is your exactnesse ) give me leave briefly to supply . The first Scripture urged was , Num 16 v. 26. or 24. It is not much materiall whether . To which the Doctor answered immediately , That that Scripture was nothing at all to the purpose which Mr. Powell alleadged it for ; being a peculiar case , wherein the Lord in an extraordinary dispensation gave a speciall command to the innocent part of the Congregation to separate from the rest , to the end he might execute his Justice in an exemplary unusuall way upon the guilty , in that very instant . By opening the story , he shewed the hainousnesse of the sin , the greatnesse of Gods displeasure against it , and the extraordinary judgement thereupon : And that extraordinary occasionall commands of God to that people are not to be drawn into example by us . And for this particular the Jews case and Mr. Powel's were in no circumstance alike . Mr. Powell said nothing to the contrary , but went on to another Scripture ; and that was 1 Cor. 5 , 11. With such a one no not to eat . The Dr. being weary of standing in the heat of their impertinencies , staid not to presse him to apply the Text , or form his argument out of it ; but presently answered , That that Scripture was nothing to their purpose of Separation neither ; as might plainly appear by the scope and sense of the whole Chapter ; wherein the Apostle first proposeth the case of the incestuous person , then blameth the Corinthians for what they did in that behalf ; directeth them to proceed to Censure against him , to excommunicate him ; giveth the use and reasons of his Command , and extendeth the Discipline to other scandalous offendors also , Adulterers , Railers , Covetous , Extortioners , &c. Such also are to be excommunicated according to the expresse command , v. 13. Put away the wicked person from among you . This Scripture speaketh of the Censure of the Church , not of gathering Congregations ; of putting away corrupt members from the Church , not of gathering a Church of severall Congregations . This being said , Mr. Powell made no reply ; but went on to a third place of Scripture . 2. Tim. 3. 5. From such turn away . The Dr. presently told him , 1. That the relative such was to be referred to all the sorts of sinners , whereof the foregoing verses gave a catalogue ( and the Moderator said they were nineteen in number ) and desired to know whom Mr. Powell charged to be so guilty . 2. The charge there to Timothy , a Governour of the Church , is but turn away , which is a signe of dislike or displeasure ; a command to shew no countenance to such , but reprove them rather . Not to leave his station , and to go and gather a new Church , but ( if the force of the word must be extended further ) to turn such out of the Church , as he was invested with power , being a Bishop , so to do . Mr. Powell replied , the Doctor said rightly , That the word , such , was to be referred to all that went before . And then he went on to another place of Scripture . Acts 19. 9. The Dr. without looking on any book all the while , told him , that Text answered it self by the circumstances . The Apostles case and theirs was nothing alike : The Apostle had to do there with hardned , blaspheming Jews , and idolatrous Heathen , Infidels , that set themselves against the Name of Christ , and Profession of Christianity , to persecute it . It was time for him to separate and be gone , when it was not safe to stay any longer . Then Mr. Powell replied , This justifieth my Separation , for I was persecuted ( I do not well remember how long since ) . The Doctor answered , He was able to say nothing to things he knew nothing of heretofore . For the present , God be thanked they had no such cause to complain . Master Powell then took occasion to acquaint the company with an affront a gifted Brother met with lately at Dolgelly in Merionethshire , neer thirty miles off : He was violently plucked out of the Pulpit , and his blood drawne . This was news to the most part of the company . But since I hear , the man was an unordained Tradesman , sent forth it should seem for triall ; and this was part of it . And this is all that was alledged for necessity of separation in case of persecution . And this is all the commotion in Wales , as I beleeve , spoken of in the beginning of the Diurnall . They want some pretence to bring the Souldiery againe amongst us . Narrat . When the Dr and Moderator perceived how all things were , they had nothing to say against him , and were quite silent . Anim. You should have considered , that the Doctor and Moderator came not there to oppose , but answer ; and that they had done ; and expected either further opposition , or liberty to be gone . The Dr. might well be silent , being grown so hoarse , that his voice was hardly audible . The Dr. faith indeed , he had a purpose to have concluded with a short speech to the company , recollecting the passages ; but wanting voice to do it , he turned away in silence ; leaving the Reader now to do it for him . Narrat . There was nothing intended against the godly Ministers of England , nor their People , though of differing judgements . Animad . No , what say you to the Dr. and his people ? are they not godly ? or was there nothing here intended against them ? Speak the truth , or eat these words again , or give your selves the lye . The time was , when the Commissioners for the propagation of the Gospel gave the Doctor this testimony , tanquam à tripode ( I meane the Chaire man in the name of the rest ) that he was a man without exception , and somewhat more , which is not here so pertinent to relate . And for point of difference in judgement , Master Powell expressed himself more then ordinarily charitable , saying he was perswaded that many that dissented from him in opinion , of severall professions , some Papists also , might be saved . What was done by the other party after their departure , it cannot be expected that the Doctor or any of his company should give any accompt . I was told indeed , I cannot say how truly , that a young man of Master Powel's company drew some people after him to the side of the Common ; and there inveighed against Learning and all such as professe it , Doctors and others . It may be , it was not so : But if it were , it is no news amongst them . The Doctor was told beforehand by a knowing friend , what would be the issue of this businesse ; and he himself professed he expected no other , but such indeavours to blast his credit , as are here used in this Narrative : well knowing that what Luther applied unto himself , is indeed every good mans case . Hos scio pro certo , quod dum cum stercore certo , Vinco seu vincor , semper ego maculor . This for a truth I apprehend , Whil'st with a T — I do contend , Prevaile I , or prevaile I not , I am sure to take a spot . I am confident the Doctor will give me little thanks for my Poetry , who delighteth not in recriminations , although interpretative . And it is too apparently known whence all the dirt is taken up , which they have endeavoured to fling in his face , even from the sink of their own corruption . So farewell Master Narrative : and learn to be more faithfull and exact in your relation of the next Dispute . FINIS .