Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1670 Approx. 505 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 183 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47928 Wing L1316 ESTC R1454 12306009 ocm 12306009 59253 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online text creation partnership. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A47928) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 59253) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 921:15) Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. [8], 350 p. Printed by E.C. and A.C. for Henry Brome ..., London : 1670. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, NewYork. Table of contents: p. [3]-[8] Attributed to Roger L'Estrange. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Dissenters, Religious -- England. Toleration. Freedom of religion -- Great Britain. 2003-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-01 Rina Kor Sampled and proofread 2004-01 Rina Kor Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Toleration DISCUSS'D ; IN TWO DIALOGUES . I. Betwixt a Conformist , and a Non-Conformist ; Laying open the Impiety , and Danger of a General Liberty . II. Betwixt a Presbyterian , and an Independent ; Concluding , upon an Impartial Examination of their Respective Practises , and Opinions , in Favour of the Independent . Vaevobis , Hypocritae ! LONDON , Printed by E. C. and A. C. for Henry Brome at the Gun in Ludgate-street , at the West End of St. Paul's . 1670. TO THE READER . The CONTENTS . SECTION I. UNIVERSAL TOLERATION too Wide , and Unlawful . Page 3 SECT . II. LIMITED TOLERATION too Narrow , and Disobliging to the Excluded Party . 15 SECT . III. No Toleration to be admitted , but with the Allowance of the Chief Magistrate . 18 SECT . IV. The BOUNDS of Toleration . And the Error of making Fundamentals and Non Fundamentals to be the Measure of it . 23 SECT . V. The Common Arguments for TOLERATION , Examined . 29 SECT . VI. TOLERATION undermines the Law , and causes Confusion both in Church , and State. Page 36 SECT . VII . The Non-Conformist's Plea for Toleration , upon REASON OF STATE . 43 SECT . VIII . The Non-Conformist's Plea for Toleration , from the MERITS of the Party . 52 SECT . IX . The Non-Conformist's Plea for Toleration , from the Innocence , and Modesty of their OPINIONS and PRACTISES . 56 SECT . X. The Non-Conformists demand a Toleration , which is neither INTELLIGIBLE in the Whole , nor PRACTICABLE so far as it may be Understood . 78 SECT . XI . The Non-Conformists demand a Toleration , for No Body knows WHOM , or WHAT . 84 SECT . XII . The Conjunct Importunity of the Non-Conformists for a Toleration , is not grounded upon Matter of CONSCIENCE . 87 SECT . XIII . The Conjunct Importunity of the Non-Conformists for a Toleration , is a Manifest CONFEDERACY . 96 SECT . XIV . The Non-Conformists Joynt-Pretenses FOR A Toleration , overthrown , by the Evidence of their Joynt-Arguments , Professions , and Practises AGAINST it . 114 SECT . XV. The Non-Conformists JOYNT COMPLAINTS of Hard Measure , and Persecution , confronted with their own JOYNT-PROCEEDINGS . 120 SECT . XVI . The Non-Conformists tell us , That Liberty of Conscience is the Common Interest of This Kingdom ; but REASON and EXPERIENCE tell us the CONTRARY . 128 SECT . XVII . This Kingdom has been still the Worse for Indulging the Non-Conformists , and the Party never the Better . Which evinces , that UNIFORMITY is the True Interest of This Government , and Not Toleration . 148 SECT . XVIII . The Party of Scrupulous , and Conscientious Non-Conformists , is neither NUMEROUS , nor DANGEROUS . Pag. 167 SECT . XIX . The Non-Conformists Appeal , from the Government , and Discipline of the Church of England , to the Judgment , and Practise of the Reformed Churches BEYOND THE SEAS ; Examined , and Submitted to Censure . 172 SECT . XX. The Non-Confotmists Exceptions to Our Publique Way of Worship , found Guilty of Great IMPIETY , and ERROR . 194 SECT . XXI . Whatsoever God hath left INDIFFERENT , is the Subject of HUMANE POWER . 217 SECT . XXII . No End of Controversie , without a FINAL and UNACCOMPTABLE JUDGE , from whose Sentence there shall be no Appeal . 226 SECT . XXIII . The Three Great Judges of Mankind , are GOD , MAGISTRATES , and CONSCIENCE . 238 SECT . XXIV . The Church of England charges the Non-Conformists with SCHISM , and the Non-Conformists charge those of the Church with SCANDAL . The Matter is taken into Debate . Page 256 Toleration Discuss'd , betwixt a Presbyterian , and an Independent . SECT . XXV . An Enquiry , upon a Short , and Impartial Survey of the Rise , Progress , and Issue of the War , raised by the Two Houses in 1641. Whether were more Criminal , The PRESBYTERIANS , or the INDEPENDENTS . 271 SECT . XXVI . What Party soever DEMANDS a Toleration , and yet Mainteins , that it is Destructive both of Church , and State , to GRANT one , Is an ENEMY to BOTH . 292 SECT . XXVII . In Case of a Toleration , or Indulgence to be Granted , Whether has the fairer Preten se to it ; The CLASSICAL Way of the PRESBYTERIANS , or the CONGREGATIONAL Way of the INDEPENDENTS ; in Respect of their Form of Government ? Page 298 SECT . XXVIII . Whether may be better Tolerated in This Kingdom , The Presbyterians , or the Independents ; in Respect of their PRINCIPLES , and Ordinary PROCEEDINGS ? Debated , First , With Relation to his Majesties PERSON , and AUTHORITY . 306 SECT . XXIX . The Question of Toleration , betwixt Presbytery , and Independency ; Debated , with regard to the Foundation , and Execution of the LAW . 318 SECT . XXX . The Question of Toleration , betwixt Presbytery , and Independency , Debated , with a Regard to the Rights , Liberties , and Advantages of the PEOPLE . 327 Toleration Discuss'd , By way of Dialogue betwixt a CONFORMIST , AND A NON-CONFORMIST . Conformist . LIberty of Conscience , or , No Liberty of Conscience , is the Question . What is Conscience ? Non-conformist . Conscience is a Iudicium Hominis de Semetipso , prout subjicitur Iudicio Dei. b The Judgment that a Man makes of Himself and his Actions , with reference to the future Judgment of God. Or otherwise , c It is An Ability in the Understanding of Man , by a Reflex Act to Judge of Himself in all he does , as to his Acceptance , or Rejection with God. Rutherford makes it to be d A Power of the Practical Understanding , according to which the Man is obliged and directed to give Judgment of Himself ; that is , Of His State and Condition , and of all his Actions , Inclinations , Thoughts , and Words . C. If this be Conscience , Then Liberty of Conscience is A Liberty of a Man's Iudging of Himself , and his Actions , with reference to the future Iudgment of God. N. C. Right : But then he is bound likewise to Practise according to that Judgment , and To Worship God according to the Light and Understanding which he hath , of What is that Worship which is Acceptable with him , in Matter and Manner , and not otherwise . C. So that your Liberty of Conscience is now come to Liberty of Practise . Indeed I could wish that the Advocates for Liberty would be a little more Candid in this business . They take wonderful Pains ( many of Them ) to prove , That Conscience cannot be forc'd ; It is out of the Reach of Humane Power ; God never appointed any Iudge of it ; Shall any Man pretend to make me believe , That which I cannot believe ? ( And the like ) Pressing the Argument , as if That were the very Pinch of the Case , which is just Nothing at all to the Point in Controversie . It is obvious to Common Reason , that This Suggestion cannot but create very dangerous and unquiet Thoughts in the People : For if they be denied Liberty of Conscience ( in the plain and honest English of it ) They suffer under the most Barbarous , and Ridiculous Persecution , that ever yet appear'd upon the face of the Earth . But on the other side , If their claim be stretch't to Liberty of Practise , It seems not only unreasonable , but utterly Inconsistent , both with Christianity it self , and the Publique Peace . SECTION I. UNIVERSAL TOLERATION too Wide , and Unlawful . C. LIberty of Conscience ( as you have stated it ) is An Universal Toleration for People to say and do what they please , under the Warrant and Pretext of Conscience . N. C. That is to say , In Matters properly the Subject of Conscience , with Reference to the future Judgment of God. C. By This Rule , Pagans are to be tolerated as well as Christians : For They have Consciences as well as We : They are convinc'd , that there is a God ; and that That God ought to be Worship't ; and may plead for the same Freedom , in the way and manner of their Proceeding . N. C. But Paganism is not within the Pale of the Question . C. Why then , no more is Conscience . If you say , They are in the Wrong , and so debar them the Exercise of their Opinion , because of the Error of it , your Exception lies to the Error , n●…t to the Conscience ; and may be turn'd upon your selves : For They say as much of You ; and have as much right to condemn You , as You Them : Neither have you any more Right to be Judges in your own Case , then they in theirs . N. C. Well , but we have a Law to Iudge our selves by . C. And so have They too : For , They without a Law , do by Nature the things contained in the Law , and are a Law unto Themselves . N. C. But how can that Law-have any Regard to the future Judgment of God , when they deny the Immortality of the Soul : C. There is a future Iudgment of God in This Life , as well as in the next : And the Conscience that hath no Light at all of another World , is not yet without Apprehensions of Divine Vengeance in This. Raro Antecedentem Scelestum deseruit pede poena claudo . You 'l be as much to seek now , if you restrain your Argument to Christianity ; for you must either prove , That there are no Erroneous Consciences among Christinas ; or , That Error of Conscience is no Sin ; or else , That Sin may be Tolerated . N. C. There is no doubt but there are Erroneous Consciences ; and it is as clear that Sin is not to be Tolerated : But I do not take every Error of Conscience to be a Sin ( understand me of Consciences labouring under an Invincible Ignorance . ) C. It is very true , That as to the Formality of Sin , which is the Obliquity of the Will , An Error of Conscience under an Invincible Ignorance is no Sin : But Sin Materially considered , is the Transgression of the Divine Law ; and Conscience it self becomes Sinful , when it dictates against That Law. N. C. Can there be any Sin without Assent ; or any Assent without Knowledge ; or any Knowledge in a Case of Invincible Ignorance ? The Transgression of the Law implies the Knowledg of it , or at least the Possibility of Knowing it ; without which , it has not the Nature of a Law , as to me . [ The Conditions requisite to a Rule are These : It must be Certain ; and it must be Known . If it be not Certain , it is no Rule ; If it be not Known , it is no Rule to Us. ] I had not known Sin , but by the Law ( says the Text ) And in another Place , Where there is no Law , There is no Transgression . From whence the Deduction is clear , That Sin is not barely the Transgression of a Law , but the Transgression of a Known Law ; the Inconformity of the Will to the Understanding . C. The Perversness of the Will being a Sin , does not hinder the Enormity of the Iudgment to be so too . [ Until the Law , Sin was in the World ; but Sin is not imputed , when there is no Law. ] In few words , The Word of God is the Rule of Truth , and all Disproportion to that Rule is Error : God's Revealed Will is the Measure of Righteousness ; and all Disproportion to that Measure is Sin. Now the Question is not , Whether imputed , or no ; but , Whether a Sin , or No : And you cannot make Error of Conscience to be No Sin , without making the Word of God to be No Rule . N. C. I do not deny , but it is a Sin as to the Law ; but it is none as to the Person ; It is none Constructively , with him that accepts the Will for the Deed. C. Can you imagine that any Condition in the Delinquent can operate upon the Force and Equity of the Law ? Because God spares the Offender , shall Man therefore tolerate the Offence ? David was pronounced a Man after God's own Heart ; shall Authority therefore grant a License to Murder and Adultery ? N. C. What is David's Case to ours ? You instance in Sins of Presumpt●…on , and the Question is touching Sins of Ignorance . C. I was a Blasphemer , a Persecutor , and Injurious ( says St. Paul ) but I obtain'd Mercy ( he does not say APPROBATION ) because I did it in Ignorance and Unbeleif . Again , The Magistrate has a Conscience , as well as the Subject . It may be Ignorance in him that Commits the Sin , and yet Presumption in him that Suffers it . Briefly , in pleading for all Opinions , you plead for all Heresies , and for the Establishment of Wickedness by a Law. What Swarms of Anabaptists , Brownists , Familists , Antinomians , Anti-Scripturists , Anti-Trinitarians , Enthusiasts ( and what Not ? ) have started up even in our days , under the Protection of Liberty of Conscience ? What Blasphemous and Desperate Opinions , to the Subversion both of Faith and Government ! Where 's the Authority of the Scriptures , and the Reverence of Religion , when every Man shall make a Bible of his Conscience , divide the Holy Ghost against it self , and dash one Text upon another ? He that has a mind to rake further in this Puddle , let him read Edwards his Gangraena , Bayly's Disswasive , Paget's Haeresiography , &c. To pass now from Opinions , to Practices . The Liberty you challenge , opens a door to all sorts of Villany and Outrage imaginable ; to Rapine , Murder , Rebellion , King-killing . N. C. As if any Man that has a Conscience of his own , or knows what Conscience is , could give Entertainment to so fond an Imagination , as to suppose , that God at the last day will approve of Murders , Seditions , and the like Evils : Since what is Evil in it self , and against the Light of Nature , there is no direction unto it , no approbation of it from Conscience in the least . C. But what will this amount to ? when , first , Every Man's Word shall be taken for his own Conscience : And secondly , That Conscience pleaded in defence of his Actions . That which you stile Murther , and Sedition , He 'll tell you is only a Gospel-Reformation , The Destroying of the Hittites and the Amorites , &c. So that you are never the better for tying a Man up to the Light of Nature in his Actions , if you leave him at Liberty in his Creed : For there is not that Impiety in the World , but he 'll give you a Text for it . The Adversaries of God , that refuse to enter into a holy Covenant with the Lord , and submit themselves to Christ's Scepter , may be Sequestred and Plundered , without the Imputation of Rapine ; for it is written , The Meek shall inherit the Earth : And it is no more then God's People the Israelites did to the Egyptians . Nay , if they be Refractary , they may be put to Death too , without Murder , [ Those mine Enemies , which would not that I should Reign over them , bring hither , and slay them before me . ] If any Man has a spight at the Church , it is but calling it Antichristian , and Mr. Case shall give him a Commission to take this Agag , and Hew it in pieces before the Lord. Taking up Arms against the Government , is helping the Lord against the Mighty . And King-killing it self , is justified by the Example of Ehud to Eglon. N. C. But do you believe any Man so mad , as to take these Extravagances for Impulses of Conscience ? C. Or rather , Is not he madder that doubts it ? Considering the Evidences we have both from Story and Experience , and the very Authority of Scripture it self , in favour of believing it . Does not our Saviour foretell us of False Christs , and False Prophets , that shall arise and deceive many ; yea , if it were possible , the very Elect ? Parties are engag'd in all sorts of Abomination , under the Masque of Conscience . Those of the League in Flanders , 1503. under Maximilian , bound themselves by Oath , to cast off the Yoke of Government , and to kill and slay all Opposers ; but with such regard to Religion ( I warrant ye ) that every Member of that Confederacy was to say five Ave Maryes and Pater Nosters daily , For a Blessing upon the Undertaking . The Holy League at Peronne , under Henry the Third of France , was for the Glory of God too , and the Preservation of the King : What Horrible Effects it produced , I need not tell you . Sleydan reckons upon Fifty Thousand slain in one Summer , in the Boores Rebellion in Germany , 1525. And charges the Tumult upon Seditious Preachers , whereof Muncer was chief . I shall not need to mind you of the Damned Villanies that were acted by Muncer , Phifer , ( Beold , or ) Iohn of Leyden , Rottman , Knipperdolling , Kippenbroke , Iohn Matthias , and the rest of that Gang , under the Imposture of Inspiration , and Conscience : Their Sacking and Burning of Towns , Rapes , and Massacres : And all this under the pretense of God's Command , and the Direction of his Holy Spirit . Nay , so strongly was the deluded Multitude possest with the Doctrine and Ways of their False Prophets , that the Muncerians , upon the Charge of the Landtzgrave of Hesse , stood stone still , without striking a Blow ; calling upon the Holy Ghost to their Succour ( as Muncer had promised them ) till they were all Routed and Cut off . Was it not a Holy Father , and the Prior of the Convent ( one of the Heads of the League ) that confirm'd Clement in his purpose of Murthering Harry the Third of France ? For his Encouragement , they assur'd him , That if he out-liv'd the Fact , he should be a Cardinal ; If he dy'd , a Saint . What was it again that originally disposed this Monster to that cursed Act ? Stimolato dalle Predicationi , che giournallmente sentiva fare contra Henrico di Valois , nominato il persecutore della Fede , & il Tyranno . Seditious Sermons against the King , as a Persecutor of the Faith , and a Tyrant . See in the same Author , the Confession of Iohn Castle , concerning his Attempt upon Harry the Great . He had been brought up in the Jesuites School , and Instructed , That it was not only Lawful , but Meritorious , to destroy Harry of Bourbon , That Revolted Heretique , and Persecutor of the Holy Church . [ Esaminato con le solite Forme , confesso liberamente , &c. ] What was it that Animated Ravillac to his Hellish Practise upon that Brave Prince ? but ( by his own Confession ) A Discourse of Mariana's , De Rege , & Regis Institutione . It was a Divine Instinct too , that mov'd Balthasar Gerard to Murther the Prince of Aurange . [ Divino tantùm Instinctu , id à se patratum constanter affirmabat , diu Tortus . ] To conclude now with That fresh and execrable Instance here at Home , upon the Person of the Late King : It was the Pulpit that started the Quarrel ; The Pulpit that Enflam'd it ; The Pulpit that Christen'd it God's Cause ; The Pulpit that conjur'd the People into a Covenant to defend it ; The Pulpit that blasted the King , that pursu'd him , that prest the putting of Him to Death ; and the Pulpit that applauded it when it was done . And how was all this effected ? ( I beseech ye ) but by Imposing upon the weak and inconsiderate Multitude , Errors for Truths ; by perverting of Scriptures ; and by These Arts , moulding the Passions and the Consciences of the People to the Interest of a Tumultuary Design . These are the Fruits of the Toleration you demand . Reflect soberly upon what has been said ; and Tell me , Do you think such a Toleration either fit for You to Ask , or for Authority to Grant ? N. C. The Truth is , In this Latitude there may be great Inconveniences : And yet methinks , 't is Pitty ( in Cases of some Honest Mistakes ) that a Good Man should be punished for not being a Wise Man. C. And were it not a greater Pitty , do ye think , for a State to keep no Check upon Crafty Knaves , for fear of disobliging some Well-meaning Fools ? As to the Sparing of the Man , I wish it could be done , even where it were Impious to give Quarter to the Opinion : But how shall we separate the Errour from the Person , so as to make a General Law take notice of it ? It were Irreligious to Tolerate Both , and it seems to me Impossible to sever them . If you your self now can either prove the former to be Lawful ( that is , to do Evil , that Good may come of it ) or the latter to be Practicable , I 'le agree with you for a General Toleration : If not , I hope you 'l joyn with me against it . N. C. I am not for a Toleration ( as I told you ) against the Light of Nature ; nor would I have any Pretense of Conscience admitted , that leads to the Destruction of the Magistrate , and the Disturbance of the Government . C. That is to say , You will content Your self with a Limited Toleration : which , I fear , upon the Debate , will prove as much too narrow for you , as the Other was too wide . SECT . II. LIMITED TOLERATION too Narrow , and Disobliging to the Excluded Party . C. BY a Limited Toleration we may understand A Legal Grant of Freedom and Immunity , in Matters of Religion , to Persons of such and such Perswasions , and to no Others . N. C. Or , if you please , An Exemption from the Lash of the Act of Uniformity . C. You say something , if This would do the Work. But to dissolve a Solemn Law , for the Satisfaction of Some Particulars , and at last leave the People worse then we found them , were certainly a gross Oversight . However , what 's your Quarrel to it ? N. C. I think it a great Cruelty to confine a multitude of differing Judgments to the same Rule , and to punish a Consciencious People for those Disagreements , which they can neither avoid , nor relinquish . C. Why will you Practise that Cruelty your selves then , which you condemn in others ? For Limited Toleration , is an Act of Uniformity to those that are excluded . They that are within the Comprehension , will be well enough : But what will become of them that are left out ? who have Consciences as well as their Fellows , and as good a Title to an Indulgence , as those that are taken in . Upon a fair View of the Matter , you can neither admit All , without Offence to your Conscience ; nor leave out Any , without a Cheque to your Argument . N. C. And yet I am perswaded a Limited Toleration would give Abundant Satisfaction . C. Suppose you had it , and your self One of the Rejected Party : Are not you as well now , without any Toleration at all , as you would be then , without receiving any Benefit by it ? N. C. To deal freely , I would not willingly be excluded . C. And is not That every Man's Case , as well as yours ? A Limited Toleration must Exclude Some , and why not You , as well as Another ? Or indeed , Why should not All be Tolerated , as well as Any ? They can no more abandon their Opinions , then you Yours : And Your Ways are just the same Grievances to Them , which ( if You may be credited ) Ours are to You. So that most undeniably , the Plea of the Nonconformists upon the Point of Conscience , is all alike : And since None of them have more Right to an Indulgence , One then Another , Why should any Party of them expect more Favour ; to the Exclusion and Disobligation of the Rest ? N. C. But are not Some Opinions more tolerable then Others ? Do you put no Difference betwixt Truth and Errour ? Betwixt Points Fundamental and Non-Fundamental ? Betwixt the very Basis of Christianity , and the Superstructure ? In fine , Betwixt such Principles as affect Order and Publique Agreement , and others that flow Naturally into Loosness and Confusion ? C. Without Dispute , Some Opinions and Principles are more allowable then Others : But where lieth the Right of Allowing , or Rejrcting ? Let This be first examined , and then we 'l advise upon the Opinions , and Principles themselves , what may be allow'd , and what Not. SECT . III. No Toleration to be admitted but with the Allowance of the Chief Magistrate . C. WE are agreed , first , That an Universal Toleration ( implying a License to all sorts of Wickedness ) is not upon any terms to be admitted . Secondly , That a Limited Toleration ( being a Grant of Favour to Some , and Exclusive of Others ) must needs lay a Disobligation upon the Excluded Party . The next Point will be , Where to place the Power of Permitting , or Refusing ; and from thence we shall pass to an Inquiry into the Bounds and Limits of such a Toleration as may be warrantable : Which being once settled , we are to see how far the Pretenses and Qualifications of the Parties concern'd will suit with those Measures . N. C. Grant us but an Indulgence to Dissenters of Sound Faith , and Good Life ; We ask no more . Let Nothing be imposed upon us that is grievous to our Consciences on the One Hand , and We shall never desire a Toleration of any thing that is justly Offensive to Church or State on the Other . C. But What if the Dissenters shall call that Sound Doctrine , which the Church defines Heresie ? What if the Subject shall account That Imposition grievous , which the Magistrate thinks N●…cessary ? Or , That Liberty Consciencious , which the Governour esteems Unlawful ? Who shall over-rule ? If the Subject , it follows then , That the Magistrate is obliged to Toler●…te whatsoever the Subject shall judge Himself obliged to do : And this carries us back into a General Toleration . If the Magistrate over-rule , your Plea of Conscience is out of Doors : And it is at his Choice , What sorts of Dissenters to Indulge ; and , Whether Any , or None , at his Pleasure . N. C. The World , you know , is as much divided about the Power of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion , as about any other part ( perchance ) of our Debate . C. We shall discourse That more at large elsewhere . But however , as to this Particular , let us come to a present Settlement , that we may clear our way as we go . If you make the People Judges of what is fit to be Tolerated , First , ( as I said before ) You are upon the Old Rock of Universal Toleration ; for ( right or wrong ) every Man will stick to the freedom of his own way . Secondly , You lay the Foundation of a Quarrel never to be reconciled . You shall have as many Factions , as Men ; As many Religions , as Fancies ; and every Dissenter shall be both a Party , and a Iudge . To imagine an Agreement betwixt the Magistrate and the Multitude , by the Common Consent of Both ; were to suppose an Accommodation betwixt Heaven and Hell , betwixt Light and Darkness ; which are every jot as Capable of it , as several of the Differences now before us . And for an Umpire in the Case , you can pretend to None . N. C. Pardon me : We have the Word of God to repair to , in what concerns Sound Faith ; and the Light of Nature for our Guide , in the Duties of Good Life . C. This is to ●…e that which was the Ground of the first Controversie , the Umpire of the Second . For what is the Original of all our Grand Disagreements , but ( as St. Augustine has it ) ●…onae Scripturae male-intellectae ; Good Scriptures ill understood ? And we are never the nearer an Accord for the Reading of Them , without another Moderator to set us right in the meaning of Them. Neither is the Light of Nature any more Exempt from false Glosses and Misconstructions , then the Bible . Upon the whole matter , you see the Absurdities and Inconveniences that follow upon placing the Judgment and Direction of Ordering these Matters of Difference , any where else then in the Magistrate : Whose Duty and Interest it is , both as a Christian and as a Ruler , to put an end to these Impious Contentions , by such Rules and Establishments as may secure the Foundations both of Religion and Government . N C. This would do well , if Men were agreed upon those Rules : But Several Men , we see , have Uarious Apprehensions of the self same thing ; And That which One Man takes for a Rule , another counts an Error . C. You are at your ●…niversal Toleration again : But pray mark the Consequences of this way of Reasoning : Be●…ause the Multitude cannot agree upon a Rule , there shall be None at all . Pursue this Argument , and there shall be no Lair , No Religion , No Scripture , No Truth , left in the World. Because Men differ , Which is the true Religion . They disagree about the Doctrine of the Bible . That which is Truth to One Man , is Heresie to another . And never was there any Law that pleased all People . Authority says , Worship Thus , or So : The Libertine cries , No , 'T is a Confinement of the Spirit ; An Invention of Man ; A making of That Necessary which God left Free ; A Scandal to Tender Consciences , &c. And here is Authority concluded as to the Manner of Worship . So for the Time. How do they know when Christ was Born , Crucified , or Raised from the Dead . The Churches Fasting-days They make their Iubile's . Videas hodie Quosdam ( says Calvin ) quibus sua Libertas non videtur Consistere , nisi per Esum Carnium die Veneris in ejus Possessionem venerint . We have many Now adays , that would look upon their Liberty as good as forfeited , if they should not maintain their Title to it , by Eating Flesh on Fasting-days . 'T is the same thing as to the Place . Command them to Church , They will tell you , There is no Inherent Holiness in the Walls : The Hearts of the Saints are the Temples of the Lord : Is not God to be found in a Parlour , as well as in a Steeple-house ? Finally , What have they to say for all This , But that This is One Man's Judgment , That Another's ? This or That may be indifferent to you , but not to me . To conclude , What One Man urges , All may ; and in All Cases , as well as in Any : Which has brought us once again to an indeterminable Liberty ; The last Resort of all the Champions of your Cause , if they be followed home . Now if you can assign any other Arbitrator of this Matter then the Civil Power , do it : If you cannot , let us proceed . N. C. Go forward then . SECT . IV. Th●… BOUNDS of Toleration . And the Error of making Fundamentals and Non-Fundamentals to be the Measure of it . C. IN the Question of Toleration ( says a Learned Prelate ) the Foundation of Faith , Good Life , and Government is to be secured : Wherein is comprised a Provision and Care , that we may live as Christians toward God , As Members of a Community toward one another , and as Loyal Subjects toward our Sovereign . If you 'l take This for the Standard of your Toleration , we have no more to do , but to apply Matters in Controversie to the Rules of Christianity , Good Manners , and Government ; and to entertein or reject all Pretensions , thereafter as we find them Agreeable , or Repugnant , to Religion , Morality , and Society . N. C. Uery well stated truly , I think . C. All the Danger is , the falling to pieces again , when we come to bring This and That to the Test. For if we differ at last upon the Application of Particular Points , and Actions , to the General Heads of Faith , and Government already laid down and agreed upon , We shall yet lose our selves in Uncertainty , and Confusion . N. C. There will be no fear of That , if we tye up our selves to Fundamentals . C. What do you mean by Fundamentals ? N. C. There are Fundamentals of Faith , that bind Us as we are Christians ; And there are Fundamentals of Practice , that oblige us as we are Members of a Community . From These Fundamentals there lies no Appeal to Conscience . In other Matters ( which we look upon as Non-Fundamental ) we think it reasonable to Desire a Toleration . C. This Distinction has a fair Appearance ; but there is no trusting to it . First , it proposes a thing neither Practicable , nor Reasonable ; which is , The Uniting of all People under one Common Bond of Fundamentals . What possibility is there of attaining such an Agreement , among so many Insuperable Diversities of Judgment , as reign in Mankind ? Insomuch , that what is a Fundamental Truth to One , is a Fundamental Error to Another ; and Every Man is ready to abide the Faggot for his own Opinion . It is also very unreasonable to exact it . God Almighty does not require the same Fundamentals from all Men alike ; But Much from Him to whom Much is given , and Little from Him , to whom Little : And from All , according to their differing Degrees , and Measures , of Grace , and Knowledg . You will likewise find your self under great Uncertainty about the Stating of your Fundamentals : For divers Circumstances , of Little , or No value in Themselves , become Fundamental in respect of their Consequences . As for Instance ; That Christ died for Sinners , I presume shall be one Article of your Faith : But whether upon Mount Calvary , or some other part of the Neighbourhood , seems of no great Moment , as to the Main of Our Salvation . And yet he that denies , that Our Saviour suffer'd upon Mount Calvary , puts as great an Affront upon the Veracity of the Holy Ghost in the Gospel , as He which denies that he suffer'd upon the Cross. N. C. I give it for Granted , that from some , more is required ; from others , less : In proportion to their Differing Gifts and Graces . But then there are some Principles , so Essential to Christianity , and so clear in Themselves , as to admit of no Dispute . C. Saving That Grand Foundation of Our Faith , that Iesus Christ is come in the Flesh ; and that Whosoever confesses , that Iesus Christ is the Son of God , God dwelleth in Him , and He in God. ( Saving ( I say ) That Radical Principle , which if we disbelieve , we are no longer Christians ) There is scarce One Point that has not been subjected to a Controversie . If you reduce your Fundamentals to This Scantling , Your Creed will lie in a very Narrow Compass : But your Toleration will be Large Enough , if you are at Liberty for the rest . Touching the Clearness of them , I do not comprehend it : For Supernatural Truths hold no Proportion at all with the Ordinary Motions of Humane Reason . If They be so clear , Tell us , What they are ; Where we shall look for them ; and How we shall know them when we have found them . N C. Where should we look for the Foundation of our Faith , but in the New-Testament of Jesus Christ ? C. But still we do not all read the Bible with the same Spectacles . To draw to an Issue ; Generals conclude nothing , so long as we are left at Freedom to wrangle about Particulars ; and you will find much surer footing upon the Foundations of Establish'd Law , then upon the Whimseys of Popular Speculation . To my thinking , the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England , as it is settled by Acts of Parliament , with other Legal Constitutions , for the Peace , and Order of the Government , are every whit as competent a Provision for the Good of the Publique , as your new Fundamentals . N. C. The Point is not ( as you seem to understand it ) a Competition between Our Fundamentals of Notion , and Yours of Law : But an Inquiry concerning the Limits of a Iustistable Toleration . C. Very Good : And you refer us to your Distinction of Fundamentals and Non-Fundamentals , as to a Rule , how far we are at Liberty , and wherein we are Bounded . But This will not do the work ; and I have spent the more words about it , because I find This Distinction the Ordinary Retreat of Your Party . The Truth of it is , there 's not One of a Hundred of you , but takes This Question by the wrong Handle . You make it a Question of Conscience , and Religion , What may be Tolerated , and what not : Whereas the thing falls properly under a Consideration of State. In Matters not to be Tolerated ( as in Articles of Religion ) The Magistrate is positively bound up ; In other Cases , He may chuse , whether he will Tolerate , or Restrain ; That is to say , with a perpetual Regard to the Q●…iet , and Security of the Publique . Where Particulars may be relieved , without Inconvenience to Communities , it is well : But otherwise , Private Consciences weigh little in the Scale against Political Societies : And Toleration is only so far allowable , as it complies with the Necessities , and Ends of Government . N. C. That is to say ( according to your first Resolution ) The Foundation of Faith , Good Life , and Government is to be secured : Whe●…ein I am content to close with you ; though there are some , that believe the Right of Toleration may be defended without any Restrictions . C. For Discourse sake , pray try , what you can make on 't , either with , or without . SECT . V. The Common Arguments for TOLERATION , Examined . N. C. NO Man under the Gospel ought to be compell'd to believe anything ; and if not to believe , then not to practise . C. Rutherford says well to this Point : That the Magistrate is not to force Men Positively to External Worship ; but Negatively , to punish Acts of False Worship , and Omissions of External Performances of Worship , as of Ill Example to Others : Not Commanding Outward Performances , as Service to God ; but forbidding Omissions of them , as Destructive to M●…n . N. C. It is a strange Absurdity to force Men , against their own Light , to be guided by Others , unless we are sure , we cannot mistake . C. But were it not a stranger Absurdity , to leave every Man at Liberty to set up a New Light of his own ; and then to subject the United Light of the Nation ( which is the Law ) to the Scatter'd Lights of Private Persons ? N. C. But does not One Man see that sometimes , which a Thousand may miss ? C. And because This is possible , is the Odds therefore upon One against a Thousand ? Or if so , Why may not the Church be in the Right against the People , as well as any Particular of the People , against the Church , and the Rest ? This is most Certain , that of a Thousand Differing Opinions , there can be but One Right : And a Toleration upon your supposal , is sure to set up Nine hundred ninety nine Errors : Which is the ready way to bring People to cutting of Throats for Opinions . N. C. If a Magistrate may punish all that his Conscience says are in the wrong , then All Persecutors are in the right . C. Men are not punish't for their Consciences , but for their Actions : And if a Magistrate may not restrain Liberty of Action , then All Rebellions are in the Right . N. C. The Magistrate is appointed to see That Executed which Christ hath appointed in Religion ; and Punctually ty'd up , neither to Add , nor to Diminish , either in the Matter , or in the Manner . The Manner Christ hath appointed , being as positively obliging as the Matter . C. If it be the Magistrate's Duty to see Christ's Appointments in Religion Executed , in Matter , and Manner , without Adding , or Diminishing : First , You must allow him to be a Competent Judge of What Christ hath appointed ; ( for otherwise his Commission directs him to do He knows no : What. ) Secondly , According to your Argument , there is but One Way of Worship , Warrantable ; which puts a Bar unto any sort of Toleration whatsoever . N. C. If the Magistrate has any Power over the Consciences of his People , How came he by it ? For he that hath no other , then the Light of Nature , hath as much Power , as if he were Christian ; and by becoming Christian hath no Addition of Power to what he had before . C. It is true , that Christianity ( as you put the Case ) does not confer upon the Magistrate any New Power ; but it lays upon him an Additional Obligation of Duty . While his Conscience was Pagan , He took his Measures only from Humane Prudence , and the Light of Nature . But upon his Conversion , He falls under the Dictate of a Conscience that is Further , and Otherwise Enlighten'd : And b●…comes Answerable , as well for the Establishing , Securing , and Promoting of Christianity , as for the Political Conservation of his People , and Government . N. C. Persecution may make Hypocrites , but not Converts . C. You may say the Same thing of the Law , in other Cases . That makes many Men Honest in appearance , for fear of Punishment ; that are yet rotten at Heart . Nay , I am further perswaded , that where Severity makes one Hypocrite , It cures a hundred . For so long as there is either Profit , or Credit to be got , by th●… Disguise of Religion , All Men of Corrupt Principles , and Designs will flow into the Party . But when That Temptation to Hypocrisie shall be removed ; and that they find nothing to be gotten by the Imposture , but Punishment , and Disgrace , They will soon betake themselves to a more regular Station in the Government . Many a Counterfeit Cripple has been cured with a Dog-whip . N. C. Are Heresies to be Extirpated , and Truth to be Propagated by the Sword , or by the Word ? C. If it be the Penalty you oppose ; Where the Word will not do , You your selves fly to Censures , and Excommunications , which are Punishments , as well as Corporal , and Pecuniary Inflictions ; and as little Instructive . But you are upon a Mistake : The Civil Power does not so much Pretend to the Recovery of those that are out of the Way , as to the Saving of the Rest : Nor does It properly Punish any Man , as an Heretic , but as a Seducer . Do you but let the King's Subjects alone , and He 'l never trouble Himself to Impose upon your Consciences . If it reaches not Wickedness in the Heart , It provides yet against the Infection of it , and the Scandal ; by keeping the Hands , and Tongues of Licentious People in Order . N. C. I do not deny , but that a Rigorous Law may have some Profitable Influence upon the Looser Sort : Yet still it falls heavy upon the Innocent , as well as upon the Guilty . To Know , Believe , or Profess are not in our Power : And shall a Man be punish't for want of Grace , or Understanding ? C. Though it is not in our Power to Know , and Believe , as we please ; yet to forbear publishing of our Thoughts , and Acting in Relation to Them , is unquestionably in our Power . Neither is any Man to be punish't for want of Grace , or Understanding : But yet it will be ill , if those Defects may pass for an Excuse . All manner of Impiety should then go Scot-free : for without Doubt , Let Fools be Priviledged , and all Knaves shall pretend Ignorance . N. C. No Man can call Iesus the Christ , but by the Holy Ghost : Will you punish any Man for not having the Holy Ghost ? C. No Man that hath the Holy Ghost , will deny Iesus to be the Christ : Will you punish any Man for denying Iesus to be Christ ; that is to say , for not having the Holy Ghost ? N. C. He that acts against his Conscience , Sins . C. And so does he that Acts by it , If in Error . N. C. Every Man is true to God , that is true to his Conscience , though it be Erroneous . C. Will it not then follow , that a Man may worship the Sun , or the Moon , and yet be true to God , if That Worship be according to his Conscience ? To clear This Point ; Some Consciences are Erroneous upon the score of Invincible Ignorance ; and That Insuperable Frailty is a fair Excuse : But Some Consciences again are Erroneous for want of due Care , Search , and Enquiry ; Others , out of Pertinacy : And there is no Plea to be admitted for These Consciences . N. C. How do you know , but you may persecute God , in the Conscience of a True Believer , as St. Paul did , before his Conversion ? C. If I may turn your own Reason against your self , I may do it , and yet be true to God ; if in so doing , I am true to my Conscience . But still you confound Conscience , and Practise ; whereas the Civil Magistrate pretends to no sort of Authority , or Dominion over the Conscience . And your Objection is of as little force any other way : For the Magistrate is no more Infallible in One Case , then in Another ; and may as well Dread the Persecuting of God , in the Conscience of a Murderer , or any other Criminal , as in That of an Heretick . N. C. I think we have enough : But it may be , This Toleration will please us better in the Exercise , then it does in the Speculation . C. What Hinders then , but we may try it that way too ? SECT . VI. TOLERATION undermines the Law , and causes Confusion both in Church and State. N. C. WHy may not a Toleration do as well here , as in France ? C. How do you mean ? Would you have his Majesty of Great-Britain , Tolerate Roman-Catholicks here , as his Most Christian Majesty does Protestants in France ? N. C. You speak as if None were to be Tolerated but Papists . C. Not I truly : But so it must be , if you 'l have your Toleration after the French Fashion . Can you shew me that any Non-Conforming Roman Catholicks are Tolerated There ? Nay ; Or that those of the Religion do Subdivide , or break Communion among Themselves ? Such an Instance might stand you in some stead . N. C. But is it not More , To Tolerate a Forreign R●…ligion , then to Indulge your own ? To permit Freedom of Worship to those you repute Hereticks , then to Relate a little towards your Orthodox Friends ? C. The Question is not , in Matter of Religion , whether to Favour Sound Faith , or Heresie ; but in Reason of State , whether is more Advisable , to Tolerate the Exercise of quite a Different Religion ; Or a Separation from the Church-Order Establish't . Alas ! In several Religions ( and especially where the Professors are divided by mutual Prejudice , and Principles of strong Opposition , ( as in this Case too much they are ) There 's no great fear of gathering , and engaging Parties , to the Disturbance of the Publick Peace . There is a great Gulf ( as he says ) betwixt them . And Men do not usually start from one Extreme to another , at a Leap ; But to Tolerate One Church within Another , is to Authorize a Dissolution of the Government both Ecclesiastical , and Civil . And the Defection is the more Dangerous , because it is almost Insensible . As many as will leave you , may ; and every Dissenter is double : One lost , to the Government ; Another gain'd , to the Schism : Which will quickly bring down Authority to the Mercy of the People . In fine , By Toleration , a Kingdom is divided against ie self , and c●…nnot stand . N. C. When you have taken Breath , Do me the Favour to make out what you say . C. The Demand of a Toleration , is in it self , the Condemnation of an Establish't Law ; and not without hard Reflexions neither , both upon the Equity , and Prudence of the Law makers . So that , at first Dash , here is the Law unhing'd : For If any One Law may le question'd by the Multitude , The Consequence reaches to All the Rest. N. C. We do not question , either the Prudence of the Law-Makers ; Or the General Equity of the Constitution . Only where God hath not given Us Consciences suitable to the Rule , We humbly desire such a Rule , as may Comply with Our Consciences . C. Would you have a Law that shall Comply with all Consciences ? God Almighty Himself never made a Law that pleased all People . N. C. It would be well then , that you should bring all Men to the same Mind , before you force them to the same Rule . C. But it would be ill , if there should be no Rule at all , till we had found out One that all People should say Amen to . N. C. We do not ask the Vacating of a Law , but the Widening of it . C. Why then you ask a worse thing ; for it were much better for the Publique , totally to Vacate a Good Law , then to suffer a Contempt , even upon a Bad One. If the Reason of such or such a Law be gone , Repeal the Law. But to let the Obligation fall , and the Law stand , seems to be a Soloecism in Government . You should consider , that Laws are not made for Particulars ; but framed with a Regard to the Community : And They ought to stand Firm , and Inexorable . If once they come to Hearken to Popular Expostulations , and to side with By-Interests , the Reverence of Government is shaken . N. C. But where 's the Danger of Receding from that Inexorable Strictness ? C. Here it lies . It implies an Assent , both to the Equity of the Complaint , and to the Reason of the Opinion in Question : ( If not also a Submission to Importunity , and Clamor . ) And among many Ill Consequences , It draws This after It , for One. If any One sort of People may be allow'd to challenge any One Law ; All other Sorts have an Equal Right of Complaining against All , or any of the Rest. So that a Toleration , thus Extorted , does not only unsettle the Law ; but ministers Argument to the Pretense of Popular Reformation . To say Nothing of the Credit it gives to the Disobedient , and Discouragement to those that keep their Stations : Beside what may be reflected upon the Magistrate , for Instability of Counsels . Another Exception may be This : How shall we distinguish betwixt Faction , and Conscience ? If it prove to be the former , A Toleration does the Business to their Hand . Nay , Suppose it the latter ; and that , hitherto , there is Nothing but pure Conscience in the Case ; What Security have We , that it shall not yet embroil us in Mutiny , and Sedition ? Will not the Tolerated Party become a Sanctuary for all the Turbulent Spirits in the Nation ? Shall they not have their Meetings , and Consultations , without Controul ? And when they shall see the Law Prostituted to the Lusts of the Multitude ; The Order of the Government dissolved ; and the Government it self left naked , and supportless ; What can We Expect shall be the End of these things , but Misery , and Confusion ? Nor is it all , that a Toleration is of manifest Hazard to us : But it is That too , without any sort of Benefit in Return . Shall we be the Quieter for it ? No. One Grant shall become a President for Another ; And so shall One Importunity for Another , Till we are brought in the End , either to a General License ; Or to a General Tumult . ( No matter Which ) The Rejected Party will be sure to mind you , that They are as good Subjects , and have as good Claims as Others , that are Tolerated ; upon which disobliging score , there falls an Odium , and Envy upon the Government . I think a Man shall not need the Spirit of Prophesie , to foretel these Events . For a Toleration does naturally Evirtuate the Law , and lead to a Total Dissolution of Ecclesiastical Order ; and Consequently , to a Confusion , both in Church , and State. N. C. I do not find my self much press'd by any thing now offer'd : If a Toleration unhinges the Law , 'T is but making the Law a little Wider , and then that Block is removed . And so is the Fear likewise of bringing present Importunities into President : For All Tolerable Liberties may be comprehended within that Latitude . And as to the matter of Imposing Faction for Conscience , such a Probiston secures You , as well , as the Act for Uniformity . C. I have spoken as much as Needs to this Point : If you think you have any Right to a Toleration , make it out ; and Approve your selves for a Generation of People , to Whom , the King may with Honour , and Safety , Extend a Bounty . SECT . VII . The Non-Conformist's Plea for Toleration , upon REASON OF STATE . C. THe Ordinary Motives to Indulgence , are These Three . 1. Reason of State. 2. The Merits of the Party . 3. The Innocence , and Modesty of their Practises , and Opinions . What have you to say now for a Toleration upon Reason of State ? N. C. The Non-Conformists are the King's Subjects ; and What 's a King without his People ? C. By Birth , and Obligation , they are the King's Subjects ; but if they be not so in Practise , and Obedience , They have no longer any Title to the Benefit of his Protection ; And such Subjects are the worst of Enemies . N. C. You will not deny them however to be a Numerous Party ; And a People of Conduct , and Unity : Which puts the Government under some kind of Prudential Necessity , to oblige so Considerable an Interest . C. If they be consequently Dangerous , because they are Numerous ; The Greater the Number is , the greater is the Hazard : And therefore because they are many already , and will encrease if they be suffer'd , They are not to be Tolerated . N. C. But Men will be much more Peaceable when they are Indulged , then when they are Persecuted . C. Now I am perswaded , that the Multitude will be much quieter without a Power to do Mischief , then with it . But what is your Opinion of the Honesty of the Party ? N. C. I do seriously believe the Non-Conformists to be an Honest , Consciencious sort of People . C. But they must be Knaves , to make Good Your Argument : for if they be Honest , They 'l be quiet without a Toleration : If they be Dishonest , They 'l be Dangerous with it . Consider again ; If there be any Hazard , it lies not in the Number , but in the Confederacy . A Million of Men without Agreement , are but as One Single Person . Now They must Consult , before they can Agree ; and They must Meet , before they can Consult . So that barely to hinder the Assembling of these Multitudes , frustrates the Danger of Them. Whereas , on the other side , To Tolerate Separate Meetings , is to Countenance a Combination . N. C. Mistake me not ; I do not say , 't is likely they will be troublesome , in Respect of their Temper , and Iudgments ; but that they are Considerable enough to be so , in Regard of their Quality and Number . C. Whether do you take to be the Greater Number ; Those that singly wish to be discharg'd from the Act of Uniformety ; Or Those that would have no Law at all ? Those that are troubled because they may not Worship according to their Fancy : Or Those that are displeased because they cannot Live , and Rule according to their Appetite ? The Truytor would have One Law discharg'd : The Schismatick , Another : The Idolater , a Third : The Sacrilegious Person , a Fourth : The Profane Swearer , a Fifth : The False Swearer , a Sixth : The Murderer , a Seventh : The Seducer , an Eighth : And in sine ; Not One of a Thousand , but had rather Command , then Obey . Shall the King therefore dissolve the Law , because there are so many Criminals ? That were to raise an Argument against Authority , from the very Reason of its Constitution . Shall the People be left to do what they list , because a World of them have a Mind to do what they should not ? Shall his Majesty give up his Government , for fear of some Millions ( perchance ) in his Dominions , that had rather be Kings , then Subjects ? Less forcible , beyond Question , is the Necessity of the King 's Granting a Toleration , ( if you reckon upon Numbers ) then That of Renouncing his Sovereignty . For doubtless , where there is One Man that is truly Scrupulous , there are hundreds of Avaricious , Ambitious , and otherwise Irreligious Persons . N. C. Tell me , I beseech you ; Do not you believe that there are more N●…n-Conformists now , then there were at the beginning of the Late War ? C. Yes , I do verily believe , Three to One. N. C. Why then 't is at least Three to One against You : For at That time , the Third Part of This Number was the Predominant Interest of the Nation . C. That does not follow ; for you may remember , that at the beginning of the late War , The Party were Masters of the Tower , The Navy , of all Considerable Forts , Towns , and Magazins : They had a great part of the Crown and Church Revenues under their Command , and London at their Beck : Beside the Plunder of Malignants , and the Bountiful Contributions of the Well-affected . Scotland was already Confederate with them in One Rebellion ; and they had made sure of Another in Ireland ( by Persecuting the Earl of Strafford , who was the only Person Capable of Keeping them Quiet . ) Which they further assisted , by a Gross Opposition of his Majesties Proposals , and Resolutions to suppress it . [ See the King's Speech of Decemb. 14. 1641. and the following Petition concerning the same . ] Finally , for the better Countenance of their Usurpations , the House of Commons was drawn down into a Close Committee , and the Votes of that Iunto were Impos'd upon the Nation as the Acts of a Regular , and Complete Authority . This was their Condition formerly ; but blessed be God , it is not so at present . The Three Kingdoms are now at Peace ; and we have a Parliament that is no Friend to the Faction . The King is Possest of a Considerable Guard , which his Royal Father wanted . The Militia is in safe Hands . His Majesty is likewise possest of his Regal Power , and Revenue : And his Capital City firm in its Obedience : To all which may be added , that although divers Particulars are as Wealthy as Pillage , and Pardon , can make them ; Yet They want a Common Stock to carry on a Common Cause . The Thimbles , and the Bedkins fail ; and the Comfortable In-comes of a Irish Adventures ; b Moneys and Plate upon the Propositions ; c Confiscated Estates ; d Twentieth Parts ; and e Weekly Assessments ; and a hundred other Pecuniary Stratagems are departed from them . If it be so , that these People have None of these Advantages now remaining , by virtue whereof , they did so much Mischief before ; What Necessity of Tolerating for fear of Disobliging Them ? N. C. However ; It is not for your credit , to say , these People want Conduct , by whom your selves have been worsted . C. The Men that worsted us , were a sort of People , that Voted down Bishops on the wrong side of the Parliament-house Door ; That cry'd , They would have no more Porter's Lodge at Whitehall ; and told his Sacred Majesty in a Publique Declaration [ August 8. 42. ] that The Pretence that his Person was there in Danger , was a Suggestion as false as the Father of Lies could invent . — That Seiz'd the Tower , The Navy , The King's Towns , Forts , Magazins , Friends , and Revenues : That Levy'd War against , and Imprison'd his Sacred Person ; Usurped his Sovereign Authority ; Imbrued their Hands in his Royal Blood ; and in the very Pulpit , animated , and avowed the Unexampled Murder . If These be the People which you plead for , under the Notion of Non-Conformists , never trouble your selves to go Nine Mile about , for a Toleration : But come roundly up to the Point , and desire his Majesty to deliver up his Crown . If it be Otherwise , You have overshot your self in your Challenge ; and it does not appear , that You are the Numerous , Politick , and United Party we took you for . If the Non-Conformists were the Principal Conducters in that Design , they are not honest enough to be trusted ; and I see no Reason of State , to Dispose the King to Gratifie the Murderers of his Father . If They were not so , it was none of Their Conduct that did the Work. N. C. If Societies , and Professions , shall be made answerable for the Failings of Particulars , All Communities , and Fellowships will be found blameable alike ; for there is no Order , or Way , without Corrupt Pretenders to 't : And it is not enough to say , there were Non-Conformists in the Party unless you probe , that what those Non-Conformists did , was acted upon a Principle , Common to Dissenters and that they did it , as Non-Conformists . ; ; C. This is a Defence , instead of an Answer ; as if I had now charg'd the Combination upon the Non-Conformists , when I only ask , if they were the Managers of it , or No ? This , you neither Confess , nor Deny ; And there let it rest : Since the Dilemma lies indifferently against you , whether they were , or not . ( as does already appear ) Touching the Unity you boast of , ( I must confess ) it is as eminent against your Superiours , as your Disagreements are among your selves . And take all together , I see Nothing made out as yet , to prove , that the Kingdom is likely to be either the Better for Granting a Toleration , or the Worse for Refusing it . Moreover , We are not unacquainted with your false Musters . Nine Presbyteries , of Fifty , made up One of your General Assemblies . And upon the Conference at Hampton-Court , in 1604. of above Nine Thousand Ministers , there were but Forty Nine upon the R●…ll , that stood out , and were deposed : Such a Noise ( says Spotswood ) will a few Disturbers cause , in any Society where they are Tolerated . But what if a Man should allow the Non-Conformists to be as valuable as you represent them ? It is but a kind of Pagan Argument , to urge the Worshipping of Them ( as the Indians do the Devil ) for fear they should hurt us . N. C. They that have a Power to do Hurt , have commonly a Power to do Good And no doubt of it , the Non-Conformists , under the Obligation of an Indulgence , would shew themselves as serviceable to the Common Good , as any sort of People whatsoever . ; C. What they will do , is uncertain ; What They have done , is upon Record , in Characters of Blood. Give me but One Instance , even since the Reformation , where England , or Scotland was ever the better for Them ( any otherwise , then by God's Extraordinary Working of Good out of Evil , and Take the Cause . N. C. I would it were put upon that Issue . SECT . VIII . The Non-Conformists Plea for Toleration , from the MERITS of the Party . C. WHat has your Party Merited from the Publique , that an Exception to a General Rule should be Granted in your Favour ? N. C. Many of Us ventur'd All , to save the Life of the late King. C. And yet ye ventur'd more to take it away : For ye did but Talk for the One ; and ye Fought for the Other . N. C. We ever abominated the Thought of Murdering him . C. You should have abominated the Money too , for Which ye sold Him. N. C. Who sold Him ? C. The Presbyterians sold Him ; and the Independents were the Purchasers . N. C. Did not the Presbyterians Uote His Majesties Concessions a Ground for a ●…reaty ? C. Yes ; but it was upon Conditions , worse then Death it self . They deliver'd Him up too , when they might have preserved him : And they stickled for Him , when they knew they could do Him no Good. N. C. What End could they have in That ? C. The very same End in — 48 , which they had in — 41 : To make a Party by it , and set up a Presbyterian Interest in the King's Name . N. C. All the World knows , that We were so much afflicted for his Sacred Majesties Distress , that We had many Solemn days of Humiliation for it . C. So ye had for his Successes ( when Time was ) for fear he should get the Better of Ye : And you had your days of Thanksgiving too , for his Disasters . N. C. Pray'e let me ask You One Question now : Who brought in this King ? C. They that would not suffer You to keep him out : That Party , which , by a Restless , and Incessant Loyalty , hindred your Establishment . N. C. And what do you think of the Secluded Members ? C. We 'l speak to that Point in another Place . But can you tell me What was the Ground of the Quarrel ? I suppose I need not tell you What was the Event of it . N. C. Religion , and Liberty . C. Of Which Side were the Tender Consciences ? For the King ; Or Against Him ? N. C. We were ever for the King ; Witness our Petitions , Declarations , and , in a most Signal manner , Our Solemn League and Covenant . C. Now I thought you had been against Him : because You took away his Revenue , Authority , and Life : Unless you mean that you were For Him in your Words , as you were Against Him in your Actions . N. C. There were many of Us , that lov'd the King as well as any of those about Him. C. According to the Covenant ( That is . ) And does not your Party love This King , as well as they did the Last ? I do not think but you love the Bishops too . N. C. Truly when they are out of their Fooleries , I have no Quarrel to the Men. But what makes you couple the Crown , and the Mitre still ? As if no Man could be a Good Subject , that is disaffected to Prelacy . C. Why truly , I think you can h●…rdly shew me any One Non-Conformist that ever struck Stroke for the King ; Or any true Son of the Episcopal Order of the Church , that ever bore Arms against Him. N. C. Are not you your self satisfied , that even Cromwel Himself , and divers of his Principal Officers , when the late King was at Hampton-Court , had Deliberations , and Intentions to Save Him ? and that there were Thousands in the Army , that had no Unkindness for his Majesty ? C. I do absolutely believe , both the One , and the Other ; and that the Folly , and Heedlesness of the Common-Souldier contributed , in a High Measure , to the General Fate : Nay , that his Late Majesty was oppress'd , even by those , that thought they fought for him , before they understood what they did . But yet let me Commend to your Observation , that these relenting Intervals in the Heads of the Army , did manifestly Vary , according to the Pulse of their Affairs . Which evinces , that it was a Deliberation , upon the matter of Convenience , rather then upon a Point of Conscience . But thus far however we are agreed ; That many of the Non-Conformists were engaged ; Whether upon Ignorance , Interest , or Faction , take your Choice . That is to say , upon Which of These Three you will found the Merits of your Party . We are next to Enquire , How far your Principles , and Actions , will comport with the Duties of Society , and the Ends of Government . SECT . IX . The Non-Conformists Plea for Toleration , from the Innocence , and Modesty of their OPINIONS and PRACTISES . C. IN the Question of Government , and Obedience , there are many Points , wherein the Non-Conformists agree : Many more , wherein they differ : and not a few , wherein they are altogether Fluctuant , and Uncertain . We have Nothing to do ( in this Place ) with their Disagreements , or Uncertainties ; save only in those Matters wherein they are United by Common Consent : And to Determine what Those are , will be a New Difficulty ; Unless you tell Us before-hand , What Authorities we may depend upon . Your Principles must be Known , or they cannot be Examined . Wherefore , Pray'e Direct us Where we may find them . N. C. Why truly in the History of the Reformation ; for This Controversie has been on foot from the very beginning of it , to this Day . C. If you speak of the Reformation beyond the Seas , I do not find any thing there , that comes neer our Purpose . Here is , first , Pretended , a Reformation of a Reformation ; Secondly , A Conjunction of Several Parties , and Perswasions , at utter Enmity One with Another , in a Confederacy against the Order of the Government : Whereas in the Great Turn of Affairs Abroad , I see little more then a Defection from the Church of Rome ; and People setling themselves in some other way , as well as they could . Muncer's Party in Germany , had ( I confess ) some Resemblance of the Tumults here in England , that usher'd in the late War ; both for the Medly , and for the Rabble . In Scotland indeed , there was a Contest , for the Reforming of a Reformation ; and it went high . But it was only a Struggle , for the Geneva-Discipline : Which Humour was brought over to us too , and driven on , for a while , under Q Elizabeth , with much Contumacy , and Bitterness . But our Case ( in short ) was never known in the Christian World , till the late Troubles ; and thither it is , that we must resort for satisfaction to our present Enquiry . Now whether you 'l be tried by the Declarations , Votes , Orders , and Ordinances of that Pretended Parliament that carry'd on the Quarrel ; Or by the Undeniable Doctrines , and Positions of your own Divines ; ( and those the very Idols of your Party ) is left at your Election . N. C. As for the Parliament , let them answer for themselves : We had no hand in their Proceedings . And for our Ministers , They were but Men , and may have their Failings as well as other People . If you would know our Principles ; We are for Worshipping according to the Light of Our Consciences , for Obeying God rather then Man ; and for yielding all due Obedience to the Civil Magistrate . C. All This comes to Nothing . For you may make that Light what you please ; and Qualifie that due Obedience as you list . What does all this Evasion , and Obscurity signifie ; but that there is somewhat in the bottom , more then you are willing to own ? There are a sort of People , that tell us , The War raised in — 41 , in the Name of King and Parliament , was Lawful . And That the Soveraignty was lodg'd in the Two Houses , ( Nay in the People ) in Case of Necessity . That Kings are but the Peoples Trustees ; Their Power , Fiduciary ; and the Duty of Subjects only Conditional . That Princes may be Depos'd ; Nay , and put to Death , in Case of Tyranny : And That their Persons may be Resisted , but not their Authority . That the King is Singulis Major , Universis Minor : And that the People may Enter into Covenant , for the Reformation of Religion , without the Consent of the Chief Magistrate ; nay , against his Authority ; and Propagate Religion by the Sword. They make their Appeals , from the Literal Construction of Law , to the Equitable ; from the Law Written , to the Law of Nature , and Necessity . A Man might ply You with fresh Instances upon this Subject , till to morrow morning ; But here we 'l stop : And pray'e speak your Opinion now , of Granting a Toleration , to a Party that Professes , and Teaches , These Principles ; and Acts accordingly . N. C. What is all This to the Non-Conformists ? Who are already come to an Agreement ; that , In the Question of Toleration , The Foundation of Faith , Good Life , and Government , is to be Secured . C. Very Good. So that what Party soever shall be found Guilty of the Positions aforesaid , and of Actions answerable thereunto , cannot reasonably pretend to a Toleration , from the Innocency of their Opinions and Practises . Now to Particulars . The POSITIONS of Divers Eminent Non-Conformists . I. The War raised by the TWO HOUSES in the Name of King and Parliament , 1641. was Lawful . [ I cannot see , that I was mistaken in the main Cause , Nor dare I repent of it , Nor forbear the same , if it were to do again , in the same State of Things . — And my Iudgment tells me , That if I should do otherwise , I should be guilty of Treason , Or Disloyalty , against the Soveraign Power of the Land. Pag. 486. A King , abusing his Power , to the Overthrow of Religion , Laws , and Liberties , may be Controuled , and Opposed . This may serve to justifie the Proceedings of this Kingdom against the Late King , who in a Hostile way set himself to overthrow Religion , Parliaments , Laws , and Liberties . P. 10. The Righteousness of the Parliament's Cause , is as clear , as the Sun at Noon-day . And , like the Law of God it self , in These Excellent Qualifications of it ; That It is Holy , Just , and Good. P. 6. II. The Lords , and Commons are the Supreme Power ; Nay the People , in Case of Necessity . Parliaments may judge of Publique Necessity , without the King ; ( If deserted by the King ) and are to be accompted , by Virtue of Representation , as the Whole Body of the State. P. 45. Whensoever a King , or other Superior Authority , creates an Inferior ; They Invest it with a Legitimacy of Magistratical Power to Punish Themselves also , in Case they prove Evil-doers . P. 7. England is a mixt Monarchy , and Governed by the Major Part of the Three Estates Assembled in Parliament . P. 111. The Houses are not only requisite to the Acting of the Power of making Laws ; but Co-ordinate with his Majesty , in the very Power of Acting . P. 42. When as a Part of the Legislative Power resides in the Two Houses ; as also a Power to redress Grievances , and to call into Question all Ministers of State , and Justice , and all Subjects , of whatsoever Degree , in Case of Delinquency ; It may be thought , that a Part of the Supreme Power doth reside in Them , though they have not the Honorary Title : And This Part of the Supreme Power , is indeed Capable of doing Wrong : Yet how it might be guilty of Rebellion , is more Difficult to conceive . P. 49. The Delegates of the People , in the House of Commons , and the Commissioners on the King's behalf , in the House of Peers , concurring ; do very far bind the King , if not wholly . P. 112. And when These cannot agree , but break , One from Another , the Commons in Parliament assembled , are Ex Officio , The Keepers of the Liberties of the Nation , and Righteous Possessors , and Defenders of it , against all Usurpers , and Usurpations Whatsoever . P. 130. III. KINGS are but the Peoples TRUSTEES ; Their Power , Fiduciary ; and the Duty of Subjects , Conditional . [ The King , is but the Servant of the People ; and his Royalty is only a Virtual Emanation from them ; and in Them , radically , as in the first Subject . ] So Rutherford , Parker , Goodwin , Bridges , Milton , &c. The People can give no other Power , then such as God has given Them : And God has never given a moral Power to do Evil. All Fiduciary Power , abused , may be repealed ; And Parliamentary Power is no Other : Which , if it be abused , The People may repeal it ; and resist them ; Annulling their Commissions ; Rescinding their Acts ; and Denuding Them of their Fiduciary Power : Even as the King Himself may be denuded of the same Power by the Three Estates . P. 152. Princes derive their Power , and Prerogative from the People ; and have their Investitures , meerly for the Peoples Benefit . P. 1. It is the King's Duty to pass all such Laws , as Both Houses shall judge Good for the Kingdom : Upon a Supposition , That They are Good , Which by them are judg'd Such . If the Prince fail in his Promise , the People are Exempt frm their Obedience ; The Contract is made Void , and the Right of Obligation is of no Force . — It is therefore permitted to the Officers of a Kingdom , either All , or some good Number of them , to Suppress a Tyrant . P. 120 , 121. IV. Princes may be DEPOSED , and put to DEATH , in Case of Tyranny . Every Worthy Man , in Parliament , may , for the Publique Good , be thought a fit Peer , and Judge of the King. P. 24. Where there is no Opportunity for the Interposure of Other Judges , the Law of Nature , and the Law of Nations allow Every Man to Judge in his own Gase . P. 34. If a Prince wants such Understanding , Goodness , or Power , as the People judge Necessary to the Ends of Government ; In the first place ; He is Capable of the Name , but not of the Government . In the Second ; He Deposes Himself . In the Third ; The want of Power , Deposes him . Theses 135 , 136 , 137. It is lawful for any , who have the Power , to call to Accompt , a Tyrant , or Wicked King ; And after due Conviction , to Depose , and put him to Death , if the Ordinary Magistrate have Neglected , or Deny'd to do it . It is not impossible , for a King , Regis Personam Exuere ; In a Natural , Or MORAL Madness or Frenzy to turn Tyrant , Yea Beast , Waiving his Royal Place , Violently , Extrajudicially , Extramagisterially to assault his Subjects , as Saul did David . In this Case , Men think Nature doth Dictate it ; and Scripture doth Justifie a Man , Se Defendendo Vim Vi repellere . P. 23. The Real Soveraignty among Us , was in King , Lords , and Commons ; and if the King raise War against such a Parliament : The King may not only be resisted , but Ceaseth to be a King. Thesis 358. The Lord rent the Kingdom from Saul , for sparing One Agag ; and for want of thorough Extirpation of all the accurs●…d Things , He lost both Thanks for What He had done , and Kingdom also . P. 27. Let no Law hinder Ye : If Law be to be broken , it is for a Crown ; and therefore , for Religion . — Ye are set over Kingdoms , to Root out , Pull down , Destroy , and Throw down : Do it quickly , Do it thorougly . By what Rule of Conscience , or God , is a State Bound to Sacrifice Religion , Laws , and Liberties , rather then endure , that the Princes Life should come into any Possibilities of Hazard , by Defending them , against those that in his Name are bent to su●…due them ? If he will needs thrust Himself upon the Hazard , when he needs not , Whose Fault is That ? There never was a Greater Harmony of the Laws of Nature , Reason , Prudence , and Necessity , to Warrant any Act , then may be found , and discern'd in that Act of Justice on the Late King. P. 18. Touching the Righteousness of the Sentence past upon the King ; Doubtless never was any Person under Heaven , Sentenc'd with Death , upon more Equitable , and Just Grounds . P. 90. Praised be God , Who hath delivered us from the Impositions of Prelatical Innovacions , Altar-Genu-flections , and Cringings , with Crossings , and All That Popish Trash and Trumpery . And truly ( I speak no more then what I have often thought , and said ) The Removal of those Insupportable Burdens , countervails for the Blood and Creasure shed and spent in these late Distractions ▪ Nor did I ever as yet hear of any Godly Men that desired , Were it Possible , to Purchase their Friends , or Money again , at so dear a Ra●…e , as with the Return of These : To have Those Soul-Burdening , Antichristian Yokes re-imposed upon Us. And if any such there be , I am sure , that D●…sire is no part of their Godliness ; and I profess my self , in That , to be None of the Number . P. 23. V. The PERSONS of Princes may be resisted , though not their AUTHORITY . The Man who is King , may be resisted , but not the Royal Office : The King in Concreto , but not the King in Abstracto . P. 265. [ He may be resisted in a Pitch't Battel , and with Swords , and Guns . 324. That is ; His Private Will may be resisted , not his Legal Will. 269. Neither is He in the Field , as a King , but as ●…n unjust Invader , and Grassator . 334. If He chance to be Slain , 'T is but an Accident ; and who can help it ? 324. He is guilty of his own Death ; Or let Them answer for 't that brought Him thither , The Contrary Party is Innocent . 273. ] The King's Authority is with the Two Houses , though the Person of Charles Stuart be not there . His Capacity was at Westminster , when his Body was upon the Scaffold at Whitehall , &c. P. 18. VI. The King is SINGULIS MAJOR , UNIVERSIS MINOR . The King is in Dignity Inferior to the People . P. 140. The Soveraign Power is Eminently ; Fontaliter ; Originally , and Radically in the People . 156. Detrahere Indigno Magistratum etsi Privati non Debeant , Populus tamen Universus quin possit , Nemo , Opinor , dubitabit . It is not for Private Persons to Depose a Wicked Governour : But that the Universality of the People may Lawfully do it , I think no Body questions . Fixum Ratúmque habeatur , Populi semper esse debere Supremam Majestatem . P. 9. VII . The People may enter into a Covenant for Reformation , without the Consent of the Chief Magistrate . There is much Sin in making a Covenant on Sinful Grounds , and there is more Sin in Keeping it ; But when the Preservation of true Religion , and the Vindication of Just Liberties meet in the Ground , Ye may Swear , and not Repent ; Yea , if Ye Swear , Ye must not Repent . P. 18. Not only is That Covenant which God hath made with Us , founded in the Blood of Christ ; but That also , which We make with God. P. 33. The Breach of the National Covenant is a Greater Sin , then a Sin against a Commandment , or against an Ordinance . 158. — A Sin of so high a Nature , that God cannot in Honour but be avenged upon 't . 159. VIII . RELIGION may be Propagated by the SWORD . The Question in England is , Whether Christ , or Anti-Christ , shall be Lord , or King ? Go on therefore Couragiously : Never can ye lay out your Blood in such a Quarrel . Christ shed all his Blood to save You from Hell. Venture All Yours , to set Him upon his Throne P. 23. Cursed be he that withholdeth his Sword from Blood ; that spares , when God saith Strike ; that suffers those to escape , whom God has appointed to Destruction . P. 24. In the 10 of Numbers , you shall read that there were Two Silver Trumpets ; and as there were Priests appointed for the Convocation of their Assemblies , so there were Priests to sound the Silver Trumpets to Proclaim the War. And likewise in the 20 of Deuteronomy , you shall find there , that when the Children of Israel would go out to War , the Sons of Levi ( one of the Priests ) was to make a Speech to Encourage them . And certainly , if this were the Way of God in the Old Testament ; certainly , much more in such a Cause as This , in which Cause , Religion is so entwin'd , and indeed so enterlac'd , that Religion , and This Cause , are like Hippocrates his Twins , they must live , and dye together . You have vowed in This Covenant to Assist the Forces raised by the Parliament , according to your Power , and Vocation ; and not to Assist the Forces raised by the King , neither Directly , nor Indirectly . P. 45. Now let me exhort you , not only to chuse to serve God , and to serve his Church , and his Cause , in this most Iust Defensive War , &c. 46. In vain shall you in your Fasts , with Josua , ly on your Faces , unless you lay your Achans on their Backs ; In vain are the High Praises of God in your Mouthes , without a Two-edged Sword in your Hands . P. 31. The Execution of Iudgment is the Lords Work , and they shall be Cursed that do it Negligently ; and Cursed shall they be that keep back their Sword from Blood in this Cause . You know the Story of Gods Message unto Ahab , for letting Benhadad go upon Composition . P. 26. Whensoever you shall behold the hand of God , in the Fall of Babylon , say ; ●…rue ; Here is a Babylonish Priest crying out , Alas ! Alas ! My Living ; I have Wife and Children to Maintein . I : but all this is to perform the Iudgment of the Lord. P. 30. Though as Little Ones , they call for Pitty , yet as Babylonish , they call for Iustice , even to Blood. IX . There lies an Appeal from the Letter of the Law , to the EQUITY of it : And from the Law Written , to the Law of NATURE . The Commander going against the EQUITY of the Law , gives Liberty to the Commanded , to refuse Obedience to the Letter of it . There is a Court of Necessity , no less then a Court of Justice ; and the Fundamental Laws must then speak : and it is with a People , in this Extremity , as if they had no Ruler . P. 113. The People have given the Politique Power to the King ; and the NATURAL Power they Reserve to Themselves . 151. All Humane Laws and Constitutions are made with Knees , to bend to the Law of NATURE and NECESSITY . P. 85. Here is more then enough said already ; and to go on as far as the Matter would carry us , there would be no End on 't . You are now at ●…berty , either to deny These to be the Positions of the Non-Con●… ; or to justifie the Positions themselves ; or to lay down your Plea for Toleration , upon the Innocency of their Principles . N. C. I am no Friend to These Positions : Neither can I yet quit my Clai●… , unless you make it out , that These are the Principles of the Party , which I take to be only the Errours of Individuals . C. Shew me the Party , and let me alone to prove These to be Their Principles . But if you will not acknowledge a Party , they are ( as you say ) but the Errours of Individuals ; though all the Non-Conformists in the Three Kingdoms should own them under their Hands . You call your selves Non-Confermists , and so were they , that both began , and carried on the Late War. Great Apprehensions they had of the Designs of the Popish Party . [ So have you . ] Mightily offended they were at the Immoderate Power of the Bishops . [ You again . ] Petitioners for the taking away such Oppressions in Religion , Church Government , and Discipline , as had been brought in , and Fomented by them . [ Your very Picture still . ] And for Uniting all such together , as joyn in the same Fundamental Truths against the Papists : ●…hy removing some Oppressions , and Unnecessary Ceremonies , by which , Divers weak Consciences have been scrupled , and seem to be divided from the rest . [ The very Platform of your Comprehension . ] Thus far You march Hand in Hand : I need not tell you what followed upon 't ; but Your Parts are so much alike , that it looks as if We were now again upon the first Seene of the same Tragedy . For a Conclusion , Conformity , or In-Conformity , seem'd at first to be the Sum of the Question ; and the Discipline of the Church was made the Ground of the Quarrel . The Ru●…ing Party in the Pretended Parliament , were Non-Conformists ; The Army , Non-Conformists ; The Pre●…ended Assembly of Divines were Non Conformists ; The City-Ministers , and Lecturers , Non-Conformists ; And by the Sol●…mn League and Covenant , every Man that took it , was to be a Non-Conformist , upon pain of Damnation . Now take Your Choice , ( since Non-Conformists you are ) Whether you 'l Range your selves under the Parliament ; Your Army ; Your Assembly ; Your City-Ministers ; Or Your Solemn League and Covenant : And let me bear the Blame , if I make it not as clear as the Day , That the Principles charg'd upon You , are the Principles of Your Party . As to your PRACTISES , They haue been suitable to your POSITIONS ; and All those Violences have been Exercised upon the Government , that were first Dictated in the Pulpit . The Lawfulness of Popular Insurrections ; Of Deposing , and Putting Kings to Death , under the Cloak of Reformation , has been vented as the Doctrine of Iesus Christ , even by the Oracles of your Cause : Nay ; and several of Them ( at present ) Eager Asserters of the Equity of a Toleration . And what has been the Fruit of These Unchristian-Lectures ; but the Subversion both of Church , and State : And the Murder of a Pio●… , and Gracious Prince , under Pretence of Doing God and the Kingdom Good Service ? N. C. These are Actions ( I confess ) not to be warranted . But yet my Charity perswades me , that a great part of the Mischief they did , proceeded rather from Necessity , then Inclination . C. Will ye see then what they did afterward , when they were at Liberty to do what they listed ? They had no sooner Murdered the Father , but immediately a They made it Death to Proclaim the Son. b They abolish't Kingly Government . c Sold the Crown-Lands . d Declared it Treason to deny the Supremacy of the Commons . e Nulled all Honours and Titles granted by the King since — 41. f Made Scotland One Commonwealth with England , &c. Have They now kept any better Touch with the Liberty and Property of the Subjects ? Let their Proceedings Witness for Them ; a As their Tax upon the Fifth and Twentieth Part. b Excise upon Flesh , Victuals , and Salt. c A new Excise upon Allom , Copperas , Monmouth-Caps , Hops , Saffron , Starch , &c. d A Loan of 66666 l. 13 s. 4 d. for Supply of the Scots . e An Assessment for the Maint●…nance of the Army . f The House of Peers Abolish't ; and a Monethly Tax of 90000 l. for the Army . g A Monthly Tax of 120000 l. h An Imposition upon Coal . i A Monthly Assessment of 60000 l. Not to Clog the Discourse with over many Particulars : We 'l see next , What They have Done , toward the Moderating of the Power of Bishops , and the Removal of Unnecessary Ceremoni●…s . k The Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Suspend●…d , and his T●…mporalties Sequestred . l Monuments of Superstition Demolish't ; ( That is , in short , an Ordinance for Sacriledge ) m The Book of Common-Prayer laid aside , and the Directory Commanded instead of it . n Arch-Bishops and Bishops Abolish't , and their Lands settled in Trustees . o Their Lands Exposed to Sale. p Festivals Abolish't . q Deans and Chapters , &c. Abolish't : And their Lands to be Sold. This is Your Way , Of MODERATING the Power of Bishops , and of REMOVING UNNECESSARY CEREMONIES . And This is the History ( in Little ) of the Opinions , and Practises of your Party : Drawn from matter of Fact ; Provable to a Syllable ; and Deliver'd without any Amplification of the Matter . N C. Ill things have been done , there 's no Question on 't ; But they have been done by Ill Men : And 't is not a Toleration of Faction that We pretend to , but a Toleration of Conscience . C , Which Toleration ( upon farther search ) will be found to be a meer Utopian Project , or W●…rse . SECT . X. The Non-Conformists demand a Toleration , which is neither INTELLIGIBLE in the Whole , nor PRACTICABLE , so far as it may be Understood . C. IT makes a great Noise in the World , The Out-cry of the Non-Conformists , for Toleration , Indalgence , Liberty of Conscience , Comprehension , &c. Let them but set it down in a Clear , Practicable , and Intelligible Proposition , and I dare say , They shall have it for the Asking . N. C. We do Propound , That Reformed Christianity may be settled in its DUE LATITUDE . C. By Reformed Christianity , I suppose you intend the Protestant Religion : But your DUE LATITUDE is of a Suspicious Intimation . Do not you remember a Declaration of the Two Houses ( April 9. 1642. ) for a DUE , and Necessary Reformation of the Government , and Liturgy of the Church : And Nothing to be taken away , either in the One , or in the Other , but What should be found Evil , and justly Offensive ; Or , at the least , Unnecessary , and Burdensom ? This Due Reformation ended ( as you may remember ) in a Total Extirpation of Both Liturgy and Government : And We see Nothing to the Contrary , but Your DUE LATITUDE may signifie the very same thing with Their DUE REFORMATION . Pray be a little Clearer . N. C. Then to put all out of doubt ; I would , in the first place , have An Establish't Order : Secondly ; A Limited Toleration : Thirdly , A Discreet Connivence . The Parties Comprehended in the Establishment , to be of Importance in the Publique Interest ; and of Principles Congruous to such Stated Order in the Church , as the Stability of the Commonwealth requires . I Would have the Toleration , to Extend to Those that are of Sound Belief , and Go●…d Life ; Yet have taken in some Principles of Church-Government less Congruous to National Settlem●…nt . And for Connivence ; It is to be remitted to Discretion . C. What is all This now , but an Universal Toleration , in a Disguise ? Some to be Comprehended within the Establishment ; Others to be Tolerated ; And the Rest to be Connived at . Again ; Your Establishment is to be of a Latitude , to take in several sorts of Dissenters , under such and such Qualifications . They must be of Importance in the Publique Interest ; and of Principles Congruous to such Stated Order in the Church , as the Stability of the Commonwealth requires . Ask the Dissenters Themselves concerning their own Qualifications , and They 'l tell you . that they are all of them , of Important Interests , and of Congruou●… Principles : So that this way , you are still upon an Universal Toleration . But on the Other Side , if You Consult Authority about Your Comprehension , The Preface to the Act for Uniformity will tell You , that the Establishment is as wide already as the Peace of the Nation will well bear . If you 'l Acquiesce in This Iudgment , the Case is determined to Our Hand : If you Appeal from it , You cast your selves out of the Pale of your own Project , because of your Principles Incongruous to the Reason of Government . N. C. But it appears to us , that the Stated Order of the Church may be widen'd , without any Check to the Stability of Government . C. And what will This avail You , if it appears otherwise to the Governours Themselves ? If They may be Iudges , the Strife is at an End ; but if you think to help your selves by Translating the Iudgment to the People ; After that Day , let us never expect any other Law , then the Dictate of the Rabble . It removes the very Foundations of the Government , and Carries Us headlong into Anarchy , and Confusion , without Redemption . If a Man should ask You now , about Your Importance in Publique Interest ; First ; as to the Interest it self , Whether you mean an Interest of Raising Men , and Moneys ; Or What Other ? Next ; as to the Degree , and Measure of your Importance ; How Many Regiments of the One , and How many Millions of the Other , makes up that Importance ? Would you not take Time for an Answer ? And then , We are as much at a Loss about Your [ Such Stated Order in the Church as the Stability of the Common-wealth requires ] You give Us No Satisfaction at all , Wherein the Stability of the Commonwealth consists ; Or What Stated Order in the Church that Stability requires : But here is a kind of a Moot-Point cast in , betwixt Authority , and the People , Which of the Two shall Determine , upon That Congruity , and Convenience . Your Limited Toleration too stands or falls upon the Same Bottem , with Your Comprehension : That is to say , Who shall Iudge of the Sound Belief , and Good Life , of the Pretendents to That Indulgence . As to your Connivence , You say Nothing of it your self ; and I shall Reflect as little upon it . Let me only Observe Upon the Whole ; that if you had really a Mind to set Us right , Methinks , You should not Trifle Us with these Ambiguities , and Amusements : But rather endeavour by some Pertinent , Intelligible , and Practicable Proposition , to bring Us to a better Understanding . Say , What Injunctions You would have abated ; Name the Parties You would Recommend for their Importance of Interests , Congruity of Principles , Sound Faith , and Good Life . Teach us how to know these Qualities , Where to look for Them , and Who shall Iudge of Them. Let it be made out , That the Present Sollicitors for Tender Consciences , are duly Authorized , and Commission'd to Act as the Trustees of the Respective Parties . Do This ; and Matters may be brought yet to a Comfortable Issue : But so long as You place the Conditions of your Indulgence out of the Reach of Ordinary Proof , and indeed , of Humane Knowledg , Every Man that is Excluded , shall dispute his Title to the Comprehension , without any Possibility of being Confuted ; To the Scandal of Religion , and to the Perpetual Trouble , Both of King , and People . N. C. To set forth the Propounded Latitude , in the Particular Limits thereof , were Presumptuous , both in Reference to Superiors , and to the Party Concerned in it . C. As if it were not a greater Presumption , to Alienate the Affections of the People from their Superiors , by Reflectings upon the Iniquity of the Government , then by the Tender of some Rational Medium of Accord , to Dispose the Hearts of Superiors to a Compliance with the Prayers , and Necessities of the People . But there is more in these Generalities , and R●…serves then the Multitude are well aware of ; and I am afraid , it will be as hard a matter , to bring you to an Agreement about the P●…rticular Parties to be Tol●…rated , as about the Model it self . SECT . XI . The Non-Conformists demand a Toleration , for No Body knows WHOM , or WHAT . C. THe Non-Conformists are the Party that desire a Toleration ; Pray let me ask ye , What are their Opinions ? What are their Names ? For , I presume , you will not expect a Toleration , for No Body knows What , or Whom . Are they all of a Mind ? If They were Tolerated Themselves , Would They Tolerate One Another ? Are They come to any Resolution upon Articles ? Are They agreed upon any Model of Accommodation ? Do They know What They would be At ? Or is it in the Wit of Man , to Contrive a Common Expedient to Oblige them ? N. C. There 's no Body says , that they are All of a Mind ; Or that it is p●…ssible to please them all ; Or Reasonable to End●…avour it . There are Divers among them , whose Principles will never endure any Order either in Church , or State. But what is the Sober Part the Worse for these Extravagants ? Those , I mean , who are ready to Iustifie themselves ; even according to the Strictness of your own Measures . C. If You are for such a Toleration , as shall Exclude the Wild , and Ungovernable Sects of Dissenters ; How comes it , that , in Your Writings , and Argumentations , You still plead the General Cause of Non-Conformists , without any Exception , or Distinction ? N. C. You are not to fasten a Charge of this Quality upon us ; that have already submitted Our selves , Not only to the Moderation of a Limited Indulgence , but to your own Conditions also , under that very Limitation . C. This You have done , I must confess , in General Terms ; But still I say , as to Particulars , Your Discourses are of such a Frame and Biass , as to give Credit , and Encouragement , to Every Sect of the Whole Party . N. C. I am of a Perswasion , but not of a Party : and whatsoever my Perswasion be , it is Moderate , Catholick , and Pacifick . C. And so is every Man's , if his own Word may be taken for his own Perswasion . But why a●…e ye so Nic●… , and Cautious , in the owning of a Particular Way , and Profession ; and yet so Frank , and Open , in a Clamor for the Whole Party ? You Complain that you are persecuted , and yet Obstruct the Means of your own Relief . Some , Ye say , are to be Indulged ; Others , Not. How shall Authority Distinguish of Which Number You your selves are ; so long as You remain under this Concealment ? Are You for the Presbyterians ? N. C. I am not ashamed of their Company , that are Commonly called by That Name : Yet I have no Ple●…sure in such N●…mes of Distinction . Neither my Design , nor my Principles , engage me to maintein the Presbyterial Government . C. Are You In●…endent then ? N. C. Neither . But yet I am ( as I told you ) for Tolerating Th●…se of Sound Faith , and Good Life , That have taken up s●…me Principles of Church-Government l●…ss Congruous to National Settlement . C. What Do you think of the Anabaptists , Brownists , Quakers , & c ? N C. Why truly , So it is , That Prudent , and Pious Men may be of Exceeding Narrow Principles , about Church-Order , and Fellowship : Toward Whom , Christian Charity pleadeth for Indulgence ; and , We hope , Political Prudence doth not gainsay it . C. So that you are FOR All Parties , but not OF Any . Which Gen●…rality gives to Understand , that your Business , is rather a Confederacy , then a Scruple . N. C. Make That Good if you can . SECT . XII . The Conjunct Importunity of the Non-Conformists for a Toleration , is not grounded Upon Matter of CONSCIENCE . N. C. YOu are the first Person certainly that ever undertook to make Proof of a Conscience . C. And yet Our Saviour tells Us , ( in This very Case of Hypocrisie ) that the Tree may be known by its Fruits : But however ; the best way of Proving a Thing Feasible , is the Doing of it . The Non-Conformists refuse Communion with the Church : What is it They boggle at ? N. C. a They do esteem the Ceremonies an Excess in the Worship of God. Pag. 31. b [ And Dissent from the Present Establishment of Religion , only in things relating to Outward Order , and Worship . Pa. 12 c About the Choice of some Peculiar Ways of Worship . Pa. 12. d But as to the English Reformation , Established by Law , They heartily Embrace it , and Assent to the Doctrine of Faith conteined in the Articles of the Church of England . Pa. 22. e They have no New Faith to Declare : No New Doctrine to Teach ; No Private Opinions to Divulge ; No Point , or Truth to Profess , which hath not been Declared , Taught , Divulged , and Esteem●…d , as the Common Doctrine of the Church of England , ever since the Reformation . Pa. 11. f They come up to a Full Agreement , in all Material Things , with Them , from Whom they Dissent . Pa. 30. C. If They Agree in all Material Things , it follows , that they Divide about Matters Inconsiderable ; and Break the Order , Peace , and Unity of the Church for Trifles . ( Things Indifferent , and relating to Outward Order , and Worship . ) N. C. In Prescribed Forms , and Rites of Religion , The Conscience will interpose , and concern it self ; and Cannot resign it self to the Dictates of Men , in the Points of Divine Worship . And Those Injunctions , which to the Imposers , are Indifferent ; in the Consciences of the Dissenters , are Unlawful . And What Humane Authority can warrant any One to put in Practice , an Unlawful , Or Suspected Action ? Pa. 26. C. If This be , really , Conscience ; You will be found as Cautious in venturing , deliberately , upon a Suspected Action , in all other Cases , as you are in This. But what if it shall appear , that This Fit of Tenderness only takes you , when you are to pay an Obedience to the Law ; and that you are as Bold as Lions , when you come to oppose it ? Will you not allow us to think it possible , that there may be somewhat more , in the Importunities , and Pretences of the Non-Conformists , then Matter of CONSCIENCE ? 'T is a Suspected Action to Kneel at the Sacrament ; but None , to hold up your Hands at the Covenant . You make a Conscience of disclaiming the Obligation of That Covenant , in Order to the Security of the Government : But None at all , of Leaguing your selves in a Conspiracy , for the Subversion of it . Where was your Tenderness , in Suspected Cases , when , to Encourage Rapine , Sacriledge , and Rebellion , was the Common Business of your Counsels , and Pulpits ? When it was safer to Deny the Trinity , then to Refuse the Covenant . When the same Persons , that started at a Ceremony , made no Scruple at all , of Engaging the Kingdom in Blood ; and laying Violent Hands upon their Sovereign . Is not This , Streining at a Gnat , and swallowing a Camel ? N. C. The Non-Conformists , I know , are charged with Principles , that detract from Kingly Power ; and Tend to advance Popular Faction . It is true , They have been Eager Asserters of Legal Liberties . Pag. 40. But These are Things gone and Past , and Nothing to our Present Purpose . The Wise Man says , He that repeateth a Matter , separateth very Friends . A looking back to former Discords , mars the most hopeful Redi●…egration . Acts of Indemnity , are Acts of Oblivion also , and must be so observed . Pa. 41. C. The Non-Conformists ( The Sole Actors in the late War ) were only Eager Asserters ( it seems ) of Legal Liberties : You do not deal so Gingerly with the Bishops , in the Point of Ceremonies , as to let them come off , with the Character of Eager Assertors of Legal Authorities . So that herein also , Your Consciences stumble at Straws , and leap over Blocks . Now , Whereas You will have it , that a Reflection upon former Discords , is a Violation of the Act of Indemnity ; And Impertinent to Our Purpose : My Answer is ; First , That I do not revive the Memory of former Discords as a Reproach ; But I make use of some Instances out of former Passages , to make Good my Assertion : That Your Conjunct Imp●…rtunity for a Toleration , is not grounded upon Conscience . And to shew you , that your Practises , and Professions grin One upon Another . For Conscience is all of a Pi●…ce ; Not Tender , and Delicate on the One side , and Callous , and Unfeeling , on the Other . Secondly , Suppose We should make a little Bold with the Act of Oblivion : I think We have as much right to do it , as You have to fall foul upon the Act of Uniformity . Unless you conceive , that the Mercy you have received by One Law , gives You a Privilege of Invading all the rest . As to Authority ; it is One and the Same in Both ; and if there were any place for Complaint against the Equity of a Legal Establishment , it would lie much Fairer against the Act of Indemnity . on the behalf of the Royallists , ( that have ruined their Estates and Families in the Defence of the Law ; and yet after all , are thereby condemned to sit down in Silence , and Despair ) Then against the Act of Uniformity , on the Behalf of the Non-Conformists ; Who by the One Law , are secured in the Profits of their late Disobedience ; And by the Other , are taken into the Arms of the Church , according to the Ancient , and Common Rule , with the Rest of His Majesties Protestant Subjects : The Same Rule , I say ; saying where it is Moderated with Abatements , and Allowances , in Favour of Pretended Scruples . N. C. Whereas you make the Non-Conformists the Sole Actors in Our late Confusions , You run your self upon a great Mistake : For — It hath been manifested to the World , by such as Undertook to Iustifie it , when Authority should require , [ That the Year before the King's Death , A Select Number of Iesui●…s being sent from their whole Party in England , Consulted both the Faculty of Sorbonne , and the Pope's Council at Rome , touching the Lawfulness and Expediency , of Promoting the Change of Government , by making away the King , Whom They Despaired to turn from his Hereste : It was Debated , and Concluded , in Both Places , That for the Advancement of the Catholick Cause , It was Lawful , and Expedient to Carry on that Alteration of State. This Determination was effectually pursued by many Iesuits , that came over , and Acted their Parts in several Disguises . Pag. 15. C. If This be True , and Proveable ; ( as You affirm it is ) You cannot do the Protestant Cause a more Important Service , then to make it out to the Parliament : Who ( You know ) have judg'd the Mat●…er Worthy of their Search , and have appointed a Committee to receive Informations . Pa. 2. Nay , which is more , You are a Betrayer of the Cause if you do it not . The WHOLE PARTY in England , do you say ? Prove out This , and you kill the whole Popish Party at a Blow . This was the Year before the King's Death , it seems : Whas not That within the Retrospect of the Act of Indemnity ? If so , tell me I beseech you , Why may not We take the same Freedom with the Non-Conformists , that You do with the Papists ? N. C. We shall never have done , if you lash out thus upon Digressions . Pray keep to the Question . C. As close as you please . What if a Man should shew You a Considerable Number , of the Eminent , and Active Instruments in the late War , to be now in the Head of the present Outcry for Toleration ? ( Take This into your Supposition too , that These very Persons promoted Our Troubles , This very Way ; and Proceeded from the Reformation of Discipline , to the Dissolution of Government ) Are We bound in Charity to take all their Pretensions of Scruple for real Tenderness of Conscience ? N. C. Beyond all Question ; unless you can either Evidence their Errour to be Unpardonable , or the Men Themselves , Impenitent . C. Why then let Amesius determine betwixt Us. [ Peccata illa , quae publicè fuerunt nota , debent etiam Confessione Publicâ damnari ; quià ad quos malum ipsum Exempli Contagione pervenerat , ad eos etiam Poenitentiae , ac Emendationis Documentum , si fieri possit , delet transmitti . ] PUBLIQUE SINS require PUBLIQUE CONFESSION ; To the End , that as many as were mis●…ed by the Example , may be set right again by the Retraction , and Repentance . This Conclusion pronounces All Those of the old stamp , that abused the People formerly , under Colour of Conscience ; and are now at Work again , upon the same Pretext , without a Publique Recantation , to be in a State of Impenitency : and gives Us reasonably to presume , that if their Consciences can Swallow , and Digest a Rebellion , There is no great Danger of their being Choak'd with a Ceremony . Another Thing is This ; You do not plead for Particular Iudgments ; ( In which Case , a Plea of Conscience may be allowed ) But every Man urges the Equity ( in Effect ) of a Toleration for all the Rest. In which Number , You your selves do , severally , and jointly , acknowledge , that there are a great many People of Insociable and Intolerable Principles ; such as in Conscience are not to be admitted . And yet herein also , You profess to be guided by Impulses of Tenderness , and Piety ; although in Opposition to the whole Course of your former Declarations , and Proceedings , that rise up in Judgment against You. N. C. If you grant , that there may be a Plea for Particulars , I shall not much trouble my self about Generals . C. That Point shall come on in due time . But let us look a little further yet , into the General Cause ; for if it be not Conscience , it is Confederacy . SECT . XIII . The Conjunct Importunity of the Non-Conformists for a Toleration , is a Manifest CONFEDERACY . C. THis appears , First , from the Method of their Proceedings ; Secondly , from the Natural Prospect , and Tendency of that Method ; Thirdly , from the Nature , and Quality of their Demands , and Arguments ; Fourthly ; from the Way , and Manner of their Addresses , and Applications ; Lastly ; from their Agreement in Matters of Dangero●…s Consequence upon the Peace of the Government . As to their Method ; The Non-Conformists of This Age ●…read in the very steps of their Predecessors : and This you may observe throughout the whole History of Them ; even from the first time that ever the Pretence of Popular Reformation set foot in his Majesties Dominions unto This Instant . This is not a Place for a Deduction of Particulars at length ; But a Touch from Point to Point , will not be much amiss . Wherefore , if you please , Give me a Brief Accompt of the Non-Conformists . First , What kind of People they are ; Secondly , What It is They would have ; Thirdly , What will the Kingdom be the better for Granting their Desires ? Fourthly , What are their Grievances , as the Case stands with them at present ? Fifthly , What are they for Number , and Resolution ? N. C. They are a People Zealous of Religion , Pa. 43. An Intelligent , Sober sort of M●…n , and Numerous among all Ranks , P. 25. * Peaceable , and Useful in the Commonwealth ; Sound in the Faith ; Men of Conscience ; Evident Opposers of all Errors Pernicious to the Souls of Men , and of an Evil Aspect upon the Publique Peace . C. Very Good : And were not the Conspirators that Seiz'd King Iames , at Ruthnen , ( 1582. ) as much as all This amounts to ? If You will believe either Themselves , or the Assembly at Edinburgh in their behalf . The Reforming Non-Conformists under Queen Elizabeth were Unreprovable before all Men ; Her Majesties most Loyal Subjects , and God's Faithful Servants : [ Most Worthy , Faithful , and Peinful Ministers ; Modest , Watchful , Knowing in the Scriptures , and of Honest Conversation ; ( Learned , and Godly ; says the Admonitioner , Pa. 25. And Martin Senior calls them , The Strength of Our Land , and the Sinew of her Majesties Government . The Scotch Covenanters , in 1638. out-did All This , for Zeal to his Majesties Person , and Authority : The True Religion , Liberties , and Laws of the Kingdom . And the Two Houses at Westminster , In 1642. come not behind . Them , in their Professions , for the Defence , and Maintenance of the True Religion ; The King's Person , Honour , and Estate , and the Iust Rights , and Li●…erties of the Subject . Here 's Your Character : Now to Your D●…mands , What is it You would have ? N. C. a A Reformation of Church-Government , Liturgy , and Ceremonies . b A Bearing with weak Consciences : c and A Relaxation of the Prescribed Uniformity . C. And This you will find to have been the Constant Pretence of the Non-Conformists , if you Consult their Story , from One End to the Other . [ Not to let loose the Golden Reins of Discipline , and Government in the Church ; But to Unburthen the Consciences of Men , of Needless , and Superstitious Ceremonies , Suppress Innovations , and Settle a Preaching Ministry , &c. Put the Case now , that you had your Asking ; What would the Kingdom be the better for it ? N. C. It will be the better for the King , Church , Nobility , and Gentry . [ And there is No Nation under Heaven , wherein such an Indulgence , or Toleration as is desired , would be more Welcome , Us●…ful , Acceptable ; Or more Subservient to Tranquillity , Trade , Wealth , and Peace . C. Reformation no Enemy to Her Maj●…sty and the State , is the very Title of a Desperate Libel , Printed 1590. against Both. And the Humble Motioner tells You , that it is for the Advantage of the Queen , Clergy , Nobility , and Commonalty ; That the Wealth and Honour of the Realm will be Encreased by it , &c. This was the Stile too of Our Reformers , in 1642. The Securing of the Publique Peace , Safety and Happiness of the Realm ; And the Laying the Foundation , of more Honour , and Happiness , to his Majesty , then ever was Enjoy'd by any of his Royal Predecessors . — Now speak your Grievances . N. C. We are Excommunicated , Outlawed , Imprison'd . Our Families Starved , and Begg●…r'd . P. 8. Proceeded against with Outward Punishments , Pecuniary , and Corporal , Nay Death it self . P. 9. [ And all this while Trade languishes , Rents fall , Money scarce . P. 26. Never a greater Separation ; Never a more General Dissatisfaction . P. 27. C. Pray'e say : Was it ever better , since Non-Conformists came into the World ? Was not King Iames , a Favourer of the Enemies of God's Truth , and of Dissolute Persons ? A Discountenancer of Godly Ministers ? A Promise-Breaker to the Church ; and a Perverter of the Laws ; Insomuch that No man could be assured of his Lands , and Life ? Was it any better even under the Celebrated Government of Queen Elizabeth ? a There were Citations , Degradings , and Deprivations . b Some in the Marshalsey ; Some in the White-Lion ; Some in the Gate●…house at Westminster ; Others in the Counter , Or in the Clinke , Or in Bride-well , Or in Newgate . [ How many Good Mens Deaths have the Bishops been the Cause of ? How many have they driven to leave the Ministry , and live by Physique ? Or to leave their Countrey ? [ Poor Men have been miserably handled , with Revilings , Deprivations , Imprisonments , Banishments : and Out of This Realm , they have all the best Reformed Churches through Christendom against them . [ If This Persecution be not provided for , great Trouble will come of it . How your Party demean'd Themselves toward the Late King , of Blessed Memory , in the matter of Calumny , and Reproach , You may read at large in that Grand , and Infamous Libel ; The Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom , Decemb. 15. 1642. But after all This ; What are these People , for Number , and Resolution , that make such a Clutter ? N. C. Thousands of the Upright of the Land. Petition for Peace , Pag. 21. ] Multitudes ▪ Dissent , and Resolve to Continue so doing ; Whatever they suffer for it . Pa. 20. And to forego the U●…most of their Earthly Concernments , rather then to Live and Die in an Open Rebellion to the Commanding Light of God in their Consciences . — To Ruine Men in their Substantials of BODY , and LIFE , for Ceremonies ; is a Severity , which ENGLISHMEN will not , long time , by any means , give Countenance unto . Pa. 23. [ To Execute Extremity upon an Intelligent , Sober , and Peaceable Sort of Men , so Numerous among all Ranks , may prove Exceeding Difficult , unless it be Executed by such Instruments as may strik ●…errour into the whole Nation . P. 25. C. Was not Queen Elizabeth told of Thousands , and Hundreds of Thousands , that sighed for the Holy Discipline ? And that since neither Parliament , nor Convocation-house would take it into Consideration , They might blame Themselves , if it came in by such Means , as would make all their Hearts Ake ? The Truth will prevail ( says the Demonstrator ) in spight of your Teeth , and all the Adversaries of it . The most Unnatural , Ca●…eless , and Horrible Rebellion , that This , or ( perhaps ) any other Age in the World hath been Acqu●…nted with ( To borrow the Words of his Late Majesty ) was Profaced with a Petition in the Name of all the Men , Women , Children , and Servants , of Edinburgh , against the Service-Book : And Another , in the Name of the Noblemen , Gentry , Ministers , and Burgesses , against the Service-Book , and Book of Canons ; ●…rotesting afterwards , that if any Inconvenience should fall out , by reason of Pressing those-Innovations , it was not to be imputed to Them , that sought all Things to be Reformed by Order . This Commotion in Scotland , led the Way to Our succeeding Broils in England ; Which were promoted by the like Artifices . Great Numbers of his Majesties Subjects , Opprest by Fines , Imprisonments , Stig●…atizings ; and Many Thousands of Tradesmen , and Artificers , Empoverish't by a Generality , and Multiplicity of Vexations . [ Great Numbers of Learned , and Pious Ministers Suspended , Deprived , and Degraded . In fine , from Pamphlets , they advanced to Petitions ; from Petitions , to Tumults ; and from thence , into a Formal State of War. N. C. So that from This Agreement in Method , You will pretend to Infer a Conformity of Design . C. From This Agreement in Method ; and from the Natural Tendency of This Method , I think a Man may honestly Conclude , it can be Nothing else : and I doubt not , but upon a Sober Examination of the Matter , I shall find You of the same Opinion . The most Sacred of all Bonds is That of Government , next to That of Religion ; and the Reverence which we owe to Humane Authority , is Only Inferior to That which we owe to God Himself . This being duly Weighed , and that the Lesser Obligation must give place to the Greater . ( As for Instance ) Reason of State , to Matter of Religion , and Humane Laws to the Law Divine : What has any Man more to do , for the Embroyling of a Nation , but first to Puzzle the Peoples Heads with Doubts , and Scruples , about their Respective Duties to God , and Man ; and then , to Possess them , that This , or That Political Constitution , has no Foundation in the Holy Scriptures ? To bid Them stand fast in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made them Free , Galat. 5. 1. And Finally , to Engage the Name of God , and the Credit of Religion in the Quarrel ? N. C. And do not you your self believe it better to Obey God , then Man ? C. Yes ; but I think it best of all to Obey Both : To Obey God , for Himself , in Spirituals ; and Man , for God's sake , in Temporals , as He is God's Commissioner . But tell me ; Are you not Convinced , that the most likely way in the World to stir up Subjects against their Prince , is To Proclaim the Iniquity of his Laws , and then to Preach Damnation upon Obedience ? N. C. What if it be ? Does it follow , because Religion may be made a Cloak for a Rebellion , That , therefore , It is never to be Pleaded for a Reformation ? C. Truly I have seldom known a Conscientio●… Reformation , accompanied with the Circumstances of Our Case . Here is , first , a Character of the Non-Conformists , drawn by their own Hand ; and set off with such Flourishes of Purity , and Perfection , as if the Scribes and Pharisees Themselves had sit for their Picture . In the Second Place , You demand , partly , a Reformation ; partly , a Toleration : And in the Third , You assure Us , that all England shall be the better for 't . ( Of These Two Points hereafter . ) In the Fourth , You enlarge upon your Grievances ; and instead of applying to the Government , on the behalf of the People , You are clearly upon the Strein of Appeal to the People from the Rigour of the Government . Your Text is Liberty of Conscience ; But the Stress of your Discourse lies upon the Liberty of the Subject : The Decay of Trade , Scarcity of Money , Fall of Rents , The Substantials of BODY , and LIFE , Imprisonment , &c. Upon the Whole ; Your Writings want nothing but Form , of a Direct Indictment of King and Parliament for Persecution , and Tyranny ; And would very well bear the Translation of their being led on by the Instigation of the Devil , Not having the Fear of the Lord before their Eyes . If You can defend this manner of Proceeding , pray do it . N. C. What can be of greater Concernment to Governours ; then to Discern , and Consider the State of their People , as it is indeed ? And Why may it not be Minded of Subjects , and spoken of , without any Hint , or Thought of ●…ebellion ? Pag. 27. C. But What can be of greater Mischief to Governours , then under Colour of Remonstrating to Them , the State of their People , at the Same time , to disaffect the People , by an Odious Accompt of the Errors , Misfortunes , and Calamities of the Government ? Governours are not to be told their Faults in the Market-Place ; Neither are Ministers of the Gospel , by your own Rules , to be admitted for Privy-Counsellors . This is spoken as to the Good Office of your Information . As to the Intention of it , I am not so bold , as to Judge your Thoughts : But if You had any Drift at all in it , and Consider'd what You did , I do not see , how You can acquit your self of Evil Meaning . Suppose the Whole Invective True ; And that you suffer for Righteousness . ( to make the Fairest of it ) What Effect do you expect these Discourses may have upon the People ? and Waat upon the Magistrate ? Will not every Man conclude , that the English are the Wretched'st Slaves upon the Face of the Earth ? Neither Liberty of Religion , nor of Person , for any Man that makes a Conscience of his Ways : The Whole Nation , Groaning under Beggery , and Bondage . Now see What Effects these Impressions may reasonably produce ; and Those Effects are a●… reasonably to be taken for the Scope of your Intention . Turn now to the Magistrate , and say ; What Proportion do you find betwixt these Rude Disobligations upon the Government , and the Returns of Grace , and Favour You desire so Earnestly from it ? On the Other Side ; if your Report be False , Your Design appears still to be the same ; Only with the Aggravations , of more Animosity , and Malice in Pursuance of it . But True , or False , it is Nothing at all to the Business of Toleration , but a Palpable Transition from matter of Conscience , to matter of State. This is the Course , in General , of Our Advocates for Toleration ; and by the Desperate Sallies , they make , from Religion , to Government , in their Pamphlets , A Man may guess what it is they would be at in their Pulpits . N. C. Oppression makes a Wiseman mad ; and 't is not Generous to Descant upon every thing , that is bolted in Heat , and Passion , as if it were a formed Discourse , upon Deliberation , and Counsel . C. But is it not a strange thing ( my Good Friend ) for so many Men to be Mad at a Time ; and to be Mad the Same Way too ? If you will have it , that they mean just Nothing at all , I am content ; But if they mean any thing , and all agree in the same Meaning ; It can be nothing else but a Confederacy . The next Point makes it yet more Evident ; that is to say , The Marshalling of their Numbers , and their Thousands ; The Boast of their Interest , in all Parties , and of the Difficulty to Suppress them : The Proclamation of their Resolution to Live and Die in defence of their Opinions , with an Innu●…ndo of the Magistrates Meddling with them at their Peril . What can be the End of this Rhodomontade ; but to startle the Government , on the One Side , and to animate the Multitude , on the Other ? It is no Argument at all for an Indulgence , that they are Many , Powerful , and Resolute ; But point blank against it : Unless they can approve themselves to be Regular , Governable , and Honest . To Sum up all ; Here are Faults found in the Government ; and the People Tamper'd into a Dislike of it ; So that here 's a Disposition to a Change , wrought already . No sooner is the Multitude perswaded of the Necessity of a Reformation ; but behold the Manner of it ; It must be either by a Thorough-Alteration , a Comprehension , a Toleration , or a Connivence . And for the Principal Undertakers , You may put your Lives in their Hands ; for ( if they do not slander Themselves ) They are as Godly , an Intelligent Sort of People , as a Man shall see in a Summers Day . Now , for the Introducing of This Reformation , there is no way , but to set up the Word of God , against the Law of the Land : By the Un-Bishopping of Timothy , and Titus ; and giving the People a Sight of the Iewish Sanhed●…m , and Gamaliel's Dilemma , through a Pair of Reforming Spectacles ; By which , they discover the Divine Right of Presbytery , with One Eye ; and That of Universal Toleration with the Other ; and so become One in the Common Cause of Maintaining Gospel Worship , against Humane Inventions . The next Care is , to Gratifie the Common People ; for there 's nothing to be done , till they come ; and there is no Reason in the World , that the poor Wretches should Venture Soul , Life , and Estate , Gratis ! This is Effected , by the Doctrine of Liberty of Conscience . For Grant but every Man a Right , of Acting , according to the Dictate of his Conscience , and he has Consequently , a Liberty of Doing Whatsoever he shall pretend to be according to That Dictate ; And of Refusing to do , whatsoever he shall say is against it : By which Invention , the Laws of the Kingdom are subjected to the Pretended Consciences of the People ; and the Multitude are made the Iudges of the Controversie . Now comes in the Ioynt-Struggle of the Non-Conformists for a Toleration . This , if it may be obtain'd , puts them in a Capacity of doing the Rest , Themselves . But in Case of Opposition , Their last Resort is to a Muster of their Forces ; A Computation of their Strength , and Interests ; Which is the Very same Thing , as if they should say , in so many Syllables ; Gentlemen ; You see the Parliament does not Regard Us : We have a Good Cause , and Hands enow to do the Work , in spight of their Hearts : ●…P AND BE DOING . After This ; There wants Nothing , but the Word , The Sword of the Lord , and of Gideon , To Crown the Enterprize . If This be not a Conspiracy , tell me What Is. N. C. You say , It is ; and We deny it . C. There are strong Presumptions also of a Confederacy , to be gathered from the Nature , and Quality of your Demands . You desire a Comprehension , a Toleration ; But then you place the Conditions of it , out of the Reach of Ordinary Proof , and indeed , of Humane Cognizance . ( as is shew'd already ) So that No Body knows , who are to be Comprehended , and who left out . This looks , as if your Business were rather to enflame the Difference , then to compose it . And then , when you are prest to Name , and Specifie the Parties you plead for ; ( since by your own Confession , several are to be Excluded ) You fly still to the Generalities , of Important Interests , and Congruous Principles , and so leave the Matter utterly uncapable of any Clear , and Logical Result ; Unless you will allow Governours the Inspection of their Subjects Hearts : Or Teach us how to Reduce Wild , and Uncertain Notions , under the Prospect of a Steady Law. But the Reason of your Dealing thus in the dark , I suppose may be This : Your Design is to be carry'd on under the Countenance of the Common Cause , wherein , all those Persons are United against the Government , that would otherwise spend their Animosities , One upon Another , and break into a thousand Pieces among Themselves . Now for you to declare for any One Party , were Virtually , to declare against all the Rest , and Dissolve the Combination . Touching the Manner of their Addresses , I shall only add , ( to what is past ) that they are Invectives , against those that cannot relieve them , without any Formal Application to those that can : And tend Naturally to the Tumultuating of the People , without any Colour of Contributing to their Ben●…fit . Of their Agreement in Matters of Dangerous Consequence , enough is spoken already , to put it past all Contradiction , That Their Conjunct Importunity for a Toleration , is a Manifest CONFEDERACY . Wherefore let us now proceed from the Drift , and Design of their Pretensions , to the Morality , and Reason of Them. SECT . XIV . The Non-Conformists Joynt Pretences FOR A Toleration , overthrown , by the Evidence of their Joynt-Arguments , Professions , and Practises AGAINST it . C. DO as you would be done by , is the Precept , both of Gospel , and Nature . With what face then , can you ask a Toleration from That Government , which of all Others , your selves refused to Tolerate ? From That Prince , to whose Blessed Father ( in the Depth of his Agonies ) you cruelly deny'd the Use , and Service of his own Chaplains ? [ A greater ●…igour , and Barbarity , then is ever used by Christians to the Me●…nest Prisoners , and Greatest Malefactors . But They that Envy my being a King , are loth I should be a h●…istian While they seek to deprive me of all things else , they are afraid I should save my Soul. ; These are the Words or that Pious Prince in his last Extremity . N. C. That Rigour was the Barbarism of a Faction , Not the Principles of the Party . C. Hear your Party speak then . [ It is much , that our Brethren should separate from the Church ; but that they should endeavour to get a Warrant , to Authorize their Separation from it , and to have Liberty ( by drawing Members out of it ) to Weaken , and Diminish it , till , ( so far as lies in them ) they have brought it to Nothing ; This we think to be plainly Unlawfuf . Toleration would be the Putting the Sword in a Madman's hand ; A Proclaiming Liberty to the Wolves , to come into Christ's Flock to Prey upon his Lambs . Extirpate all Achans , with Babylonish Garments , Orders , Ceremonies , Gestures ; Let them be rooted out from among Us. You of the Honourable House , Up ; for the Matter belongs to You. We , even All the Godly Ministers of the Countrey , will be with You. Toleration makes the Scripture a Nose of Wax : A Rule of Faith to all Religions . Liberty of Conscience , and Toleration of all , or any Religion , is so Prodigious an Impiety , that this Religious Parli●…ment cannot but abhor the very Naming of it . Such a Toleration is utterly repugnant to , and Inconsistent with the Solemn League and Covenant for Reformation . It is unreasonable ( says the Defender of the London Ministers Letter to the Assembly ) that Independents should desire That Toleration of Presbyters , which they would not give to Presbyters . For With what face can I destre a Courtesse from Him , to whom I do onenly prosess , 〈◊〉 would deny the same Courtesse ? Does not this hold as well for Us , as it did for You ? N. C. You must not Impose the Iudgments of Particular Persons upon Us , as Instances of Publique Authority . C. What do ye think then of your National Covenant ? Was That an Act of Authority ? Wherein you bind Your selves by an Oath , to settle an Uniform Presbytery , to the Exclusion of all other Forms of Church-Order , or Government what soever ; ( under the Notion of Schism ) and of Prel●…cy by Name ? Are your Consciences FOR Toleration Now , that were so much AGAINST it Then ? Nay ; there are many among you , that ●…eckon your selves under an Obligation , to pursue the Ends of that Covenant , even to this very Day : And do you think it Reasonable , for a Government to grant Privileges , and Advantages of Power , and Credit , to a Party , that owns it self under an Oath of Confederacy to endeavour the Extirpation of it ? N. C. You mean I suppose of Church-Government . C. I mean of Both Church , and State. Was it not the Test of the King's Enemies , as well as of the Bishops ? Was it not made Death without Mercy , for any Man , having taken the Solemn League and Covenant , to adhere to his Majesty ? The League and Covenant ( says Rutherford ) was the first Foundation of the Ruine of the Malignant Party in England . And whoever refuses to Disclaim it , must be rationally understood , still to Drive on the Intent of it . So that to Tolerate the Non-Conformists , is to Tolerate the Sworn Adversaries , both of Royal , and Episcopal Authority : Nay , to Tolerate Those that have Sworn to persist in that Opposition , all the Days of their Lives ; Over and above the Tolerating of those upon Pretence of Conscience FOR a Toleration , that deny to Tolerate all other People , upon as strong a Pretence of Conscience AGAINST it . Where was This Spirit of Moderation toward the weak Brethren , in the Total Suppression of the Book of Common Prayer ; and the Imposing of the Directory , to be O●…served in all the Churches within This Kingdom ? [ No Ruling Elders , but such as have taken the National Covenant . No Electors of Elders neither , ( by the Ordinance of March 14. 1645. ) but such as have taken the National Covenant . [ No Ordination , without a Testimonial of having taken the Covenant of the Three Kingdoms . None to be Admitted , or Entertained in the Universities , without taking the Solemn League and Covenant , and the Negative Oath ; and Upon Conditions of Submission , and Conformity to the Discipline , and Directory . Nay further : You will find in the Four Bills , and Propositions sent to his Majesty in the Isle of Wight , ( March 1647. ) when the Two Parties , Presbyterian , and Independent were upon so hard a Tugg ; That the Presbyterian Government , and Directory seem'd to be resolv'd upon in one Line , and unsettled again , in the very next . By a Provision : That no Persons whatsoever should be liable to any Question , or Penalty , for Non Conformity to the Form of Government , and Divine Service appointed in the Ordinances ; ( then in Force ) but be at Liberty to Meet for the Worship of God ; so as nothing might be done to the disturbance of the Peace of the Kingdom . Yet in This Crisis of Affairs ; they could clap in another stabbing Proviso against Us , upon the neck of That : i. e. That This Indulgence shall not extend to Tolerate the Use of the Book of Common-Prayer , in any Place whatsoever . And at this rate , you treated the Episcopal Party , throughout the whole Course of your Power . N. C. And good Cause for it . Were not they the most likely of all others to disappoint our Settlement ? C. Agreed . But as to the matter of Conscience ; Did you Well , or Ill in 't ? Or rather , Was there any thing of Conscience in the Case ? N. C. Certainly it was very fit for the Civil Power to look to it self : And the Power Ecclesiastical was no less concern'd to exact a Consormity to the Laws , and Ordinances of Christ. C. How can you say This , and consider what you say , without blushing ? If you did well , in Refusing to Tolerate the Episcopal Way , because you thought it not Right ; the Reason is as strong for Our Way , that have the same Opinion of Yours . If you did Well on the Other side , out of a Political Regard to the Publique Peace , so do We now , upon That very sc●…re . So that you must either confess , that You did Ill , Then , in Refusing a Toleration to Us ; or otherwise allow , that Authority does Well , Now , in not permitting it to You. N. C. There might be some Plea for a little Strictness more then ordinary , in the Heat of an Eager , and Publique Contention : But methinks a Persecution in Cold Blood , does not savour of the Spirit of our Profession . SECT . XV. The Non-Conformists JOYNTCOMPLAINTS of Hard Measure , and Persecution , confronted with their own JOYNT-PROCEEDINGS . C. WHat is it that you call Hard Measure , and Persecution ? N. C. Your Unmerciful Impositions , upon Tender Consciences , by Subscriptions , Declarations , &c. There are few Nations under the Heavens of God ( as far as I can learn ) that have more Able , Holy , Faithful , Laborious , and Truly Peaceable Preachers of the Gospel , ( Proportionably ) then Those that are now cast out in England , and are like in England , Scotland , and Ireland to be cast out , if the Old Conformity be still urged . Ours is not a Wicked , Prophane , Drunken Ministry . C. That is , by Interpretation : God We thank Thee , that We are not as other Men are . — Nor even as these Publicans . But to the Matter . These People that you speak of , are set aside for not Obeying the Law : But What do you think of those , that were turn'd out of their Livings , because they would not Oppose it ? And they were dispossest too , by some of the present Complainants themselves : Who first came in at the Window , and now are turn'd out at the Door . No less then a Hundred and fifteen were Ejected here in London , within the Bills of Mortality ( besides Paul's and Westminster ) And the rest of the Kingdom throughout , was purged after that Proportion . Nor was it thought enough to Sequester , unless they starv'd them too ; for they were not allow'd to take the Employment , either of School-Masters , or Chaplains , but under Heavy Penalties . In South Wales , the Gospel was as well Persecuted , as the Ministry : The Churches shut up , and the People let loose to the Lusts and Corruptions of Unbridled Nature . The Only Pretence of Iustification that the Reformers had , was That Unchristian , and Unmanly Libel , WHITE' 's CENTURIES of Scandalous Ministers ; wherein , without any Respect , either to Truth , or Modesty , They have Exposed so many Reverend Names , to Infamy , and Dishonour , for the better Colour of their own Sacrilegious Usurpations . But take This along with you , that Loyalty in those Days past for a Punishable , and Notorious Scandal . N. C. These were Acts of Policy , and let Statesmen answer for them . But to have Men cast out of the Church , because they will not Subscribe , and Declare , contrary to their Consciences , is doubtless a most Unconscionable Severity . C. And What is it in the Subsciption ( I beseech you ) that you stumble at ? As to the Acknowledgment of his Majesties Supremacy , I suppose , you would not be thought to stick at That . And in Matters of Doctrine , you make Profession to joyn with us : So that about the Lawfulness of using the Book of Common-Prayer , and your own Submission to the Use of it , is the Only Question . Your Exceptions likewise to the Declarations seem to be very weakly grounded , unless you make a Scruple of Declaring your selves for the Uniformity of the Church , Or for the Peace of the Civil Government : In which Cases you cannot fairly pretend to be trusted in Either . But not to Extravagate . You are against the Imposing of Subscriptions , and Declarations , you say . N. C. I am against the very Imposition it self , upon any Terms ; But when They are prest upon Grievous Penalties ; They are utterly Intolerable . C. And yet when the Common-Prayer was abolish't , There was a PENALTY , of Five Pound , for the first Offence ; Ten for the Second ; And a Years Imprisonment , without Bail or Mainprize , for the Third Offence , upon any Man that should use it . So that Here was an Interdiction of Our Way of Worship upon a PENALTY ; and No notice taken of Invading the Liberty of Our Consciences . By the same Ordinance , of August 23. 1645. was also commanded the Exercise and Order of the Directory ; and That upon a FORFEITURE too : With a PENALTY , from Five Pound to Fifty , upon any Man , that should Preach , Write , or Print any thing to the Derogation of it . Now Here was Rigor , you see , on Both Sides : But no Clamor , upon the Matter of Conscience in This Case neither . How many of Our Ministers were Poyson'd in Peter-House , And Other Prisons , either for Worshipping according to their Consciences , or refusing to Act against Them ! No Man was admitted to his Composition without SWEARING ; No Man to live in the Parliaments Quarters without SWEARING . Neither were We only debarr'd the Common Rights of Subjects , and the Benefits of Society : But the Comforts of Religion were denied Us ; And an Anathema pronounced upon Us for Our Fidelity . The General Assembly in Scotland Ordain'd , That known Compliers with the Rebells , and such as Procured Protections from the Enemy ; or kept Correspondence , or Intelligence with Him , should be Suspended from the Lo●…d's Supper , till they manifested their Repentance before the Congregation . [ ●…illespy's Useful Cases of Conscience , Pag. 19 , 20. ] His late Majesty , in his Large Declaration of the Affairs of Scotland , Pag. 199. tells you , That Men were beaten , turn'd out of their Livings , Reviled , Excommunicated , Process'd , for NOT SUBSCRIBING the Covenant . And again , Pa. 202. That there was an OATH given at a Communion at F●…fe , Not to take the King's Covenant , Nor any other , but their own . Now , hear the Commissioners of the General Assembly , Iuly 25. 1648. His Majestie 's Concessions , and Offers , from the Isle of Wight , are to be by the Parliament Declared Unsatisfactory ; Unless his Majesty give Assurance by SOLEMN OATH , under his Hand , and Seal , for Settling Religion according to the Covenant ; before his R●…stitution to his Royal Power , But that I am loth to overcharge you , I could give you the History of the Spiritting several Persons of Honour for Slaves ; The Sale of Three or Four Score Gentlemen to the Barbadoes ; beside Plunders , Decimations , and infinite other Outrages , both Publique , and Private . Give me leave to mind you now a little●… of some few of Your General Provisions for the Destruction of the King's Party , and the Extirpation of that Family , and Government to which Providence has once again Subjected you . a An Ordinance for Sequestration of Delinquents Estates . b Delinquents Disabled to bear any Office , or have any Vote in Election of any Major , &c. Here 's Estate , and Legal Freedom gone already : Now follows Banishment from One Place , and Confinement to Another . c Delinquents must be removed from London and Westminster , and Confined within five M●…es of their own Dwelling . d Correspondency with Charles Stuart , or his Par●…y , prohibited , under Pain of High Treason ; and e Death to any Man , that shall attempt the Revival of his Glaim , or that shall be Aiding , Assisting , Comforting , or Abetting , unto any Person endeavouring to set up the Title of Any of the Issue●… of the Late King. Where were the ABLE , HOLY , FAITHFUL , LABORIOUS , and TRULY PEACEABLE Preachers of the Gospel , with the Tender Consciences you talk of , when These Things were a Doing ? Truly , Neither Better nor Worse , then up to the very Ears , a great many of them , in the Main Action . Some , Preaching up the Conscience of the War ; Others , Wheedling the City out of their Money to Maintain it ; and Calling for more Blood in Prosecution of it . Till in the Conclusion , The King , and the Government , fell in the Quarrel : And the Pulpits all this while at hand , to Patronize the Reformation . N. C. This Ripping up of Old Stories , does but widen the Breach , without doing any Good at all . C. If you would not hear of these things again , you should not do them again . N. C. Then it seems the Whole must suffer for some Particulars . C. No , not so . But neither must the Whole go Scot-free for some Particulars . Would you have me open my Door to a Troop of Thieves , because there are four or five Honest Men in the Company ? That there are divers Conscientious , and well-minded Men among the Non-Conformists , I make no Question . But I am yet Positive in This , that the Non-Conformists ; in Conjunction , are in a Direct Conspiracy ; and that when they come once to agree in a Publique Complaint , It is no longer Conscience , but Faction . This by the By. — Now to the Matter before Us ; I have given you a Breviate of your own Proceedings , in the very Case of your Present Complaints . Lay your Hand upon your Heart , and bethink your self , who are the Persecutors . N. C. Let the Persecution rest where it will ; I am fully perswaded , that there is no Settling of this Kingdom in a State of Security , Peace , and Plenty , without an Indulgence , or Toleration . SECT . XVI . The Non-Conformists tell us , That Liberty of Conscience is the Common Interest of This Kingdom : but REASON , and EXPERIENCE tell us the CONTRARY . C. THat We may not spend our selves in Repetition , Cavil , or Confusion ; Take Notice , that 't is the General Cause of the Non Conformists , which is coming under D●…bate . For That Toleration which the Whole Party desires , must needs be a Toleration of the Whole Party : And That I Oppose ; in Confidence , that I have Reason , and Experience on my side . We have spoken already , as to the Unlawfulness ; and somewhat likewise ; to the Dangerous Consequences of it : Together with the Unruly Opinions , and Practices of several of the Pretenders to it . We are now to look a little further into it , with a more Immediate regard to the Common Interest of the Kingdom , which we may place in the Concernments of Religion , Government , Peace , and Plenty . To begin with Religion : I do not Understand , how That which delights in Unity , shall be advantaged by Division , and Fraction . N. C. As if there could be no Unity of Doctrine , without Uniformity of Discipline . The Precept is ; One Lord , One Faith , One Baptism : And not One Way , One Form of Worship . C. I might tell you , that it is of Ancient , and Unreprovable Practice ; for every National Church to appoint its own Platform of Service , and Ceremonies ; And to require Obedience , and Conformity to That Model , and to Those Rites respectively , from all its Members . But This I shall not insist upon . There is no Precept ( you say ) for any One Way , or Form. But can you shew me , that an Uniformity of Service , and Rituals is any where forbidden ? N. C. Not in Particular : But in the General Prohibition of all Uncommanded Worship , Pag. 26. C. The Matter in short is This. Either We have a Rule in the Gospel for the Manner of Our Worship ; Or we have None . If there be No way of Commanded Worship , left us , by Christ , and his Apostles ; And all Uncommanded Worship be ( as you say ) forbidden , There must be No appointed Worship at all ; and Then , every Man is at Liberty , Not only to Worship after what Manner he pleases , but ( effectually ) to Chuse , Whether he 'l Worship , or No : Which brings in all sorts of Heresies , and Blasphemies ; and Countenances even Atheism it self . Now , on the other Hand ; If there be any Particular Manner of Worship Prescribed in the Word of God ; from That Particular Manner , we must not presume to Vary , by a Toleration of any other Way then That ; or of More , then One. Besides , that it undermines the Foundation of all Communities , to deny the Civil Authority a Right of Interposing in such Cases , as are Neither Commanded , nor Forbidden , by God. Let us next Consider the Probable Effects of a Toleration , in respect of the Parties pretending to it . Which are , either Presbyterian ; Or ( in a Sense of Contradistinction ) Independent . The Former are for a Subordination in Churches . The Other for an Independency : ( according to their Denomination ) These are for Gather'd Congregations ; The Other , for Parochial . I will not trouble you with the Argumentative Part of the Differences betwixt them ; About the Subordination , or Co-ordination of Churches ; The Redundance , or Defect of Church-Officers ; The Receptacle of the Power of the Keys , and the like : But Nakedly , and Briefly , shew you the Kindness they have for One Another ; The Regards they have for Christian Charity , in the Menage of the Quarrel ; and Then leave you your self to Judge , what may be the Event of such a Toleration , as to RELIGION . The Sectaries ( says Edwards in his Gangraena ) agree with Iulian the Apostate , P. 54. ] They are Libertines , and Atheists , P. 185. ] Unclean , Incestuous , P. 187. ] Drunkards , P. 190. ] Sabbath-Breakers , Deceivers , P. 191. ] Guilty of Gross Lying , Slandering , Iuggling , Falsifying their Words and Promises : Excessive Pride , and Boasting , P. 192. ] Insufferable Insolences , Horrible Affronts to Authority , P. 194. ] There never was a more Hypocritical , False , Dissembling , Cunning Generation in England , then many of the Grandees of those Sectaries . — They Encourage , Protect , and Cry up for Saints , Sons of Belial , and the Vilest of Men , P. 240. Gangraena's Second Part , 1646. — See Now the Other Party doe as much for the Presbyterians . The Presbyterian Government is Anti-Christian , Tyrannical , Lordly , Cruel , a worse Bondage then under the Prel●…tes ; A Bondage under Task-Masters , as the Israelites in Aegypt : A Presumptu●…us , Irregular Consistory , which hath no Ground in the Word of God. Barrow , P. 79. ] A Vexatious , Briery , Thorny , Persecuting Pre●…ytery . [ Pulpit Incendiary , P. 26. ] F●…rmidable to States , and Free Kingdoms . [ Mr. Nye . ] The Assembly is Antichristian , Romis●… , 〈◊〉 , the Plague ▪ s , and P●…sts of the Kingdom ; Baal's Priests . [ Gangraena's Second Part , 230. ] The Seed of God in This Nation has had Two Capital Enemies , The Romish Papacy , and the Scotch Presbytery . [ Sterry's England's Deliverance , P. 7. ] An Anabaptist said , that He hoped to see Heaven and Earth on fire , before Presbytery should be settled ; [ Edwards his Gangraena . ] Barrow calls the Consistorians , Dangerous , and Pestilent Seducers ; Ravening Wolves , which come to Us in Sheeps Cloathing . ] This is enough to shew you the Mutual , and Implacable Enmity , and Opposition of the Two Grand Parties , which , you are now perswading your self , might be gratified , by a Common Indulgence . Let me further Mind you , that the Strife ended not there Neither , but proceeded to Blood : And that , so soon , as they had Master'd the Government , in a Combination , under the Masque of Reformation , and Conscience ; They parted Interests , and Upon the Very same Pretext , Engaged in a Second War ; and fell foul , One upon the Other . Wherein they sufficiently Manifested to the World , that they fought , not for Forms , and Ceremonies ; but for Booty , and Dominion . No less to the Scandal of the Religion of England , then to the Ruine of the Monarchy . N. C. You are not to stop my Mouth with Instances of Tumults , and Factions , in a Peaceable Plea for Religion , and Conscience . C. Do not you know , that Toleration is as good , as an Issue in a Government ? All the Vicious Humours in the whole Body flow that way . But Suppose it Conscience ; Are the Dissenters ever to be Reconciled ? Shall we not have Nem , and Monstrous Opinions Propagated daily ? And will it not be every Man's business , to Advance the Credit , and Authority of his own Party ? Where is the Bond of Peace , in this Exercise , and Latitude of Dissention ? The Unity of the Church , in this Multiplicity of Professions ? Which is the True Religion , among so many divided , and contradictory Pretenses to it ? Or rather ; Is there any Religion at all , where there is neither Christian Charity , Stability of Principles , Reverence , or Agreement , in God's Worship ? N. C. I hope you will not deny the Protestant Interest to be the Interest of the True Religion : And undoubtedly , the bringing of the Protestants into an Union among Themselves , is the Advantage of every Protestant State , ] and of Protestancy it self . C. Past all Dispute ; and an Uniformity of Worship brings them into that Union ; Which is never to be attained , while the World endures , by a Liberty of Conscience . How was the Protestant Interest ( I beseech you ) United in the late Dissolution of Government ; When Every Man did that which was Right in his own Eyes ? Examine the Story well , and you will find Reason to believe , that the Church of Rome has gain'd more upon Us , since That Unsettlement of Ecclesiastical Order , then perchance from the first hour of the Reformation , even unto That very Day . For Liberty of Conscience , did no less bring a Civil War upon the Protestant Religion , then the Pretended Liberty of the Subject did upon the State. It turned every Man's Hand against his Brother . Every Man had a Religi●…n to Himself , and every Man's Conscience ( as I told you ) was his Bible ; and We are still to presume , that like Causes will produce like Effects . It is also remarquable , that the lowdest , and boldest Declamers against the Orders of the Church , proved likewise , the most Pragmatical , and Audacious Invaders of the Civil Peace ; The Antecedent Schism serving only for a Prologue to the Ensuing Sedition . N. C. This Arraignment of their supposed Principles , about Government , may haply proceed upon Mistake . There is Reason to think , that the many late Disputes , about Prerogative , and Liberty , are Controversiae ortae , non primae ; that they had their Rise from something else , which lies at the Bottom . C. This is but Peradventure I , Peradventure No. For if a Man may haply be in a Mistake , he may haply too be in the Right . I will grant ye likewise , that the Disputes about Prerogative , and Liberty , had their Rise from somewhat else , which lay at the Bottom . That is to say ; It was not Purity of Religion , Reformation of the Liturgie , Retrenching the Exorbitant Power of Bishops , or Scruple of Conscience , ( as pretended ) that wrought the Subversion of Church , and State ; but it was the Design , which lay at the Bottom , of Carrying on the Great Work of Overturning the Government , under Countenance of that Plausible Imposture , and Disguise . N. C. Inclinations , and Interests , more then Speculative Opinions , will be found to have born the Sway , and Caused those Active Motions , on the One Hand , and the Other . These Dogmata , or Problems about Obedience , and Government , do but little , where Mens Affections , and Concernments do not give them Spirit , and Uigor . C. It is most Certain , that Problems draw no Blood ; and We do not read , that ever any Man's Throat was cut , with a Speculation , or a Syllogism ; But yet , Inclinations , and Interests ( you allow ) may do much , towards Mischief : So that , I have what I desire , if I am but able to make it out , that Liberty of Conscience will , most indubitably , beget strong Inclinations in the People , to shake off the Yoke of Government ; and that they will not want specious Appearances of Interest so to Do. First ; The Servants of Iesus Christ ( as the Non-Conformists peculiarly stile themselves ) have This Advantage of the Subjects of Temporal Princes ; that They serve the Better Master : and the Dignity of their Spiritual Profession supersedes the Duty of their Political Allegeance . ( So often , as they shall think Good , to stand upon That Privilege ) By Virtue of which Prerogative , they do not only Claim an Exemption from the Obligation , and Reach of Humane Laws ; But a Commission also , and Authority , to Reform those Laws , ( in Case of Error , and Corruption ) according to the Standard of the Gospel . Now to this Principle , and Doctrine , do but add Liberty of Conscience ; and the People have Law , and Magistracy at their Mercy already . For First ; they reckon themselves no further answerable either to the One , or to the Other , then as they find them Warranted in , and Grounded upon the Word of God. And Secondly ; they may chuse whether or no , they will find any Law , or Magistrate , whatsoever , to be so Warranted , or Grounded ; And consequently , Whether there shall be any Government , or No. One Man's Conscience cannot allow This , or That Injunction to be according to God's Word : It may be Lawful to Another , but it is not so to Him ; and Hee calls for Indulgence , and Moderation . Another Man's Conscience swears by the most High God , that it is point-blank Against it ; and nothing will serve Him , but utter Extirpation . And whatsoever they call Conscience , must pass for Current . Every Man is to govern himself by his own Opinion ; not by Another bodies . It is no longer Liberty of Conscience , if a Man shall be run down , and concluded , by Prescription , Authority , Consent of Fathers , Scripture , Reason , and the like , without being CONVINC'D . N. C. I thought you would have shewed me in what manner , or by what means Liberty of Conscience comes to turn the Hearts , and Interests of Subjects against their Superiors , as you said you would . C. A little Patience , and I 'le be as good as my Word . It has brought us to this pass , already , you see , that it has cast the Government upon the good Nature of the Multitude , and made it purely dependent upon the Breath of the People , whether it shall Stand , or Fall. So that ( in short ) the Matter in Question , falls under these Two Considerations . First ; Whether a People , left to Themselves , either to be under the Restrient of Laws , or not , will not rather agree to cast off a Government , then to defend it . Secondly ; Whether they will not , likewise , find a very fair appearance of Interest , and Advantage , in so doing . The Former , I think , will easily be Granted , by any Man that does but advise either with the Common Practises of the World , or with Humane Frailty : Taking the World , either in Individuals , or in Parties . What says the Artificer , the Tradesman , the Farmer ? Why should We be put upon Extremities of Hard Labour , Course Fare , Rising early , and Going to Bed late ? ( and all little enough to keep our Families from starving ) any more then such , and such ; that lie wallowing in Ease , Abundance , Luxury , and Riot ? But This we may thank the Law for ; that has Appropriated those Possessions to Particulars , which God Almighty gave us in Common . Why should We be the Drudges of the Kingdom ? ( says the Day-Labourer ) The Law is Their Enemy too , because it keeps them in Awe , that they dare not Steal . It is the same Case , with Traytors , Felons , Vagabonds , and all Criminals . And so it is with Factions , and Associated Parties ; We might set up This Government , or This Church ; and We , T'other , ( say they ) if it were not for Those Accursed Laws , that make it Death to Endeavour such an Alteration . This is a True , and Naked Accompt of the Peoples Thoughts , and Reasonings , in the Point of Liberty , and Obedience : and a sufficient Proof of their INCLINATION ( not against This , or That ; but ) against any Establishment : It being the main End of Government , to secure the Community against the Encroachments , and Attempts of Particulars : Though to the very great Damage , and Ruine , ( many times ) of Private Persons , and Parties . If you be satisfied now , that the People do not Naturally love Government , you need not doubt but they will judge it their INTEREST to Remove it : Every Male-Content , enterteining himself with hopes of mending his Condition upon the Change. But Alas ! This is not an Undertaking for Single Persons , Small Parties , or Petty Factions , by Themselves apart ; but some Common Medium must be found out , for the Uniting of them All ; which , indeed , is amply provided for , in the Project of Liberty of Conscience : and does not only facilitate the Work , by drawing the Disaffected into a Body ; but it does also Countenance , and Encourage it , by Authorising the Separation . N. C. But to Me , it seems , on the Contrary , that an Indulgence would set the Peoples Minds at Liberty from Fears and Contrivances , for the avoidance of Impendent Dangers ; and encourage them to engage the Utmost of their Endeavours and Abilities , in the Businesses of Peace , and Security . ] C. As to the Security , and Peace of the Publique , if enough be not already said , you may repair to the History of our late Broils , for the rest : Where you will also find the Condition of Particulars , to have been every jote as Distracted , and Unquiet ( in proportion ) as That of the Government . You are to expect Schisms in Corporations , Companies , Families ; as well as in Religious Congregations : Divisions , as well betwixt Parents , and Children ; Masters , and Servants ; as betwixt Rulers , and Subjects : Feuds betwixt Man , and Wife ; betwixt Brethren , Kinred , Friends ; and all these Differences , variously Influenced , according to the Benignity , or Malignity of their Divided Opinions . Nor will it be any wonder , ( upon admittance of This Liberty ) to have as many Religions in a House , as Persons : where the Husband draws one way , the Wife , another ; and the Rest of the Family have Their ways by Themselves , too . And This goes on , ( to the utter Extermination of Order , Duty , and Quiet ) till they have throughly wearied themselves , with Tossing , and Tumbling from one Sect , or Profession , to another . And then , when they are at their Wits End , they commonly take up in the Church of Rome , with an Implicite Faith , in the Conclusion . Now if what I have said , may be of force sufficient to prove , that Liberty of Conscience , is destructive , both of Religion , and Government ; and of the Peace of the Kingdom , as well Private , as Publique . I cannot see how it should advance us , ( as is earnestly suggested ) in the Business of Trade , and Plenty . N. C. We shall never have a Flourishing Trade without it : Because the Pressure in these things falls generally more upon the Trading sort of Men , then any in the Nation . We may see it in the Great City , and in all Corporations : It makes many give over Trading , and Retire ; It makes others remove into Holland , and other Forreign Parts ; as it did heretofore from Norwich , to the Irrecoverable Prejudice of our Cloathing Trade , upon the like Occasion ; And it certainly prevents all Protestant Strangers to come to Live , and Trade among us . C. The Pressure ( you say ) falls most upon TRADERS : I answer , that you begin with a Non Constat ; for the Thing it self does not appear . And then , you make Traders more Scrupulous then the rest of the Nation , who are not Generally understood to be more Conscientious ; as having divers Temptations in the way of their Employments , to strein a Point of Conscience now and then ; and they are but Men , as well as their Neighbours . If your Observation be Right ; We may thank the Nonconforming Ministers , who have had the handling of them . Your urging , that want of Liberty makes many give over Trading , and Retire , does not agree with their Observation , that place their Wonder on the other side , that so many Hold ; considering the Circumstances of a long , and Expensive War with the French , and Dutch. ( The most Expensive that ever this Kingdom undertook ) And Two of the most dreadful , and destroying Iudgments that ever Almighty God laid upon this Nation , i. e. Pestilence , and Fire , one upon the neck of another . You object , the Removal of others into Holland , as formerly . Indeed it is not for the Credit of your Cause to mind us of those that formerly left us . Take the Peins to read Bayly's Disswasive , Pa. 75. and there you shall see what Work they made in Holland : Even such , that Peters himself was scandalized at it ; quitted his Congregation , and went to New-England . Bridg , Sympson , and Ward , renounc'd their English Ordination , and took Ordination again from the People . The People , after this , deposed Mr. Ward ; and the Schism betwixt Sympson's Church , and Bridg his , was so fierce , that their Ministers were fain to quit their Stations ; and the Dutch Magistrate forc'd to interpose the Civil Authority to quiet them . In New England , their Humour , and Behaviour not much Better ( according to the Report of the same Author , Pag. 60 , 61. ) Of Forty Thousand Souls , not a Third Part would be of any Church ; and such Heresies started , as a Man would tremble to Recite . If only such as These forsake us , the Land has a good Riddance . Further ; If it was to the Prejudice of our Cloathing Trade , ( This Separation ) Who can help it ? It was Their Fault to betray the Interest of their Country , by teaching the Mystery to Forreigners ; but no blame at all can be reflected upon the Government , for Refusing Toleration to such Lawless , and Unruly Libertines . Now , as to the hindring of Protestant Strangers from coming over to us , and Trading with us , It is a clear Mistake , to imagine the Church of England to be such a Bugbear to those of the Reformation abroad , as is pretended . ( Which shall hereafter be made appear ) It is not the Act of Uniformity that hinders Strangers , but the want of an Act of Endenisation ; which , perchance , the Wisdom of future Times will find convenient , for the Supply , and Repair of that Depopulation which is brought upon us by our Colonies . But to come to an Issue . How was it with Trade , when Conscience took the full Swinge ? It brought on a War ; and so it must again , or a Standing Army to prevent it . How many Families were ruin'd , on the one side , with pure Benevolence to the Cause , in Contributions , and Enterteinments to the Devourers of Widows Houses , and the Captivaters of silly Women ? And on the other side , as many were undone with Taxes , and Plunder . How went Trading on , when all Business was neglected , but Gallopping up and down to Lectures , to hear News , and Sedition ? When Prentices robb'd their Masters , and took Sanctuary in the Service ? When Publique Faith was a Tradesmans best Security ; and the whole Nation held Life , and Estate , at the good Pleasure of a Close Committee ? N. C. Let Liberty of Conscience be once FITLY given , and the Root of all Mens Hopes , and Pretensions , that desire Publique Mischief , is pull'd up . C. FITLY , will be well indeed ; But ( with your Favour ) what is the meaning of FITLY ? How shall we agree upon the Dos ? Unless you intend , that the Magistrate is to continue Giving , till the Subject shall leave Asking . And That must be : For , If ever he thinks of holding his hand sooner , he had better have done nothing . N. C. But what Colour will there be for any further Exception ? C. The very same they have now . New Scruples will bolt New Demands : And Beside ; I should be glad if you would furnish me with any one Instance , where the Non-Conformists were ever the better for Indulgence . SECT . XVII . This Kingdom has been still the Worse for Indulging the Non-Conformists , and the Party never the Better . Which evinces , that UNIFORMITY is the True Interest of This Government , and Not Toleration . C. UPon Queen Elizabeth's coming to the Crown , Those Non-Conformists , that fled , in Queen Mary's Days , and Separating from the English Congregation at Francfort , went off to Geneva , came back again for England : and with their Libels , Clamours , Private Consultations , and Meetings , gave Trouble enough to the Government for the Ten first Years of her Majesties Reign ; who was , at that time , so beset , with the Roman Catholiques , on the One Hand ; and the Puritans , on the Other , that she thought it well , upon that Pinch , to save her self , without Exercising Rigor , and Severity upon either Party . This Impunity gave them the Confidence , a while after , to declare themselves for the Geneva Discipline , and ( in the Fourteenth of Her Reign ) by an Audacious Pamphlet ( under the Title of An Admonition ) to press the Parliament to a Reformation . The Principal Abetters of This Libel were Discover'd , and Clapt up ; And soon after , out comes a Second Admonition ; telling the Parliament , in Plain English , that , if Authority would not , they must set it up Themselves . And it was not long , ere they were as good as their Words , by Erecting several Formal Presbyteries up and down the Kingdom . ( As appeared , upon Undeniable Proof , and Confession of Parties to the Combination ) They had their Synods ; their Classical , and Provincial Conferences ; Pronounc'd their Decrees : Concurring in the main against Bishops , Ceremonies , and Common Prayer . They had their Agents throughout the Kingdom , upon a strict Survey of the Value of every Benefice ; the Number of Parishioners ; Their Quality , manner of Life , and Conversation . Their Book of Discipline was long upon the Anvile ; but at length , ( about 1586. ) it was Finished , Communicated , and Subscribed : with a Promise , to observe it Themselves , and to use all Lawful , and CONVENIENT Means to further , and advance it . In Conclusion ; the whole Matter came to be Detected ; Cartwright , Snape , and several of the Ringleaders , were Examin'd , and Committed : Whereupon , Coppinger , Arthington , Hacket , Wigginton , &c. Entred into a Conspiracy for their Deliverance ; and to have the Blood of every Man that should dare to give his Vote against them , in the Star-Chamber ; nay , to Depose the Queen her self , in Case of her Refusal to promote the Reformation . And all this , not without the Privity , and Tacit Approbation of the most considerable Ministers of the Party . This was the blessed Fruit of Lenity , and Forbearance under Queen Elizabeth ; The Law Iustled out by a Faction ; A Plot upon the Life of the Queen , and Counsel , carried on , under Colour of Religion , and Reformation . N. C. Still I perceive , you pick out the foulest Cases , and Instances you can lay hold on , to Match with Ours . C. Is it not rather your Misfortune , to write after the foulest Copies ? But to the Business : What would you say , if his Majesty now in being , had Queen Elizabeth's Game to Play ? Apprehensions of his Life , from Iesuits , Both Protestant , and Papist ? The whole Generation of the Non-Conformists United against his Person , and Government , as well in Iudgment , as in Faction ? ( which are here divided into a Thousand Disagreements ) You would ( beyond all peradventure ) give the Government for lost , without an immediate Recourse to an Act of Indulgence , and Accommodation , to preserve it . But the Policy of Those Times made Choice rather of another Course ; Some were Imprison'd ; Others , put to Death ; according to the Demerit of the Offence . N. C. Are you for Punishing Inconformity with Death then ? C. No , by no means ; Hacket , you know , was not put to Death for Inconformity , but for Treason . And pray let me give You a Brief of his Story , as Cambden delivers it . He was born at Oundle in Northamptonshire ; a Poor , Insolent , Ill-natured , and Illiterate Fellow . He married a Widow , spent her Fortune in Riot ; and when he had Nothing else to Trust to , betook himself to the Imposture of Religion , and an Affectation of the Geneva Discipline : So far Ingratiating himself with several of the Prime Zealots of That Profession , that they did him the Honour to make Him of their Council , in their Grand Design , ( to the Execution whereof , He also pretended an Extraordinary Call , and Commission from Above ) He was ( in Conclusion ) Apprehended , Charged with Treason , found Guilty , Condemn'd , and Executed . Now to shew you the Devil himself , in the shape of an Angel of Light , This Hacket , as He was upon the Hurdle , in the way to his Execution , never left Calling upon Almighty God , with Hideous Outcries : And Now behold ( says he ) the Heavens are Open , and the Son of the most High coming down to Deliver me . When he was come to the Place of Execution , He prosecuted his Blaspemies , with more Horrid , and Furious Exclamations : [ Heavenly , and Almighty God ; Thou that art the Alpha , and Omega ; Lord of Lords , and King of Kings ; Thou Eternal God ; That knowest ME to be the True JEHOVAH , that thou hast sent ; Shew some Miracle from Heaven , for the Conversion of These Infidels ; and save me from my Enemies ; Or if thou dost not , I 'le set the Heavens on Fire , and with these very Hands cast Thee out of Thy Throne . I should have scrupled the bare Recital of these Blasphemies , were it not for the Desire I have , to Possess you with a Due Consideration of those Execrable Abuses , that are frequently Imposed upon the World , under the Visor of Religion . The Condition of the Kingdom was doubtless very sad , that had such Turbulent Spirits to deal withal ; and yet we find , that by One Severe Law ( of the 35th of the Queen's Reign ) Her Majesty gave her Self , and her People , Quiet , as to That Particular , for the whole Remainder of her Life . The Penalties ( as I remember ) were These ▪ Imprisonment without Bail or Main-prize , for being Present at Unla●…ul Conve●…ricles ; The Offender to be discharged , if within Three Months He made his Open Submission , and Acknowledgment , in the Form by the said Statute appointed . But in Case of Recusancy to Conform within That time , He was required to Abjure the Realm . And in Case of Refusing to Abjure ; Or of not Departing within a limited Lime ; Or of Returning without Licence , to be proceeded against as a Felon , without Benefit of Clergy . N. C. And yet you see , for all your New-modelling of Corporations ; Prohibiting of Conventicles , Removing Non-Conformists five Miles from the Place of their Usual Supports , and Influences : Nevertheless , the State Ecclesiastical hath advanced little in the Esteem , Acceptance , or Acquiescence of the People . C. This is very True ; and if Other Laws for the Prevention of Capital Crimes , were no better Executed , then That for Uniformity , Your Argument would lie as fair every jot , for the Toleration of Murder , as it does now for Schism . But however , it succeeded well with Queen Elizabeth ; and not worse with King Iames , as appears by the Story . His Majesty ( under Twelve Years Old ) took the Government of Scotland into his Hand . The Year following , the Ministers presented a Form of Church-Policy , to the Parliament then Sitting ; and upon the Debate , matters were agreed , as far as Possible , without Prejudice to the King's Authority , and the Liberty of the Subject : And These Points were either referr'd to further Consideration , or pass'd over in Silence . The Assembly took snuff at this D●…latory way of Proceeding , and , without more adoe , pass'd a Vote , for doing their own Business , without asking the Parliament leave . They began with the Arch-Bishop of Glasgow : and presently fell upon the whole Order , requiring Them to renounce their Temporal Titles , Their Civil Iurisdiction ; To decline their Votes in Parliament , and to submit themselves to a Retrenchment of their Episcopal Revenues . Their next step , was the Demolishing of the Cathedral at Glasgow : But when the Quarriers were just entring upon the Work , the Tradesmen of the Town , in an Uproar , threaten'd the Undertake●…s , and so they quitted it : But not without a Complaint to the Council , of the Insolence of the Mutineers ; Which came to This Issue , his Majesty justifi'd the Tradesmen , and forbad the Ministers any further meddling in the Destroying of Churches . And This was all the Cheque they had for so lewd an Outrage . In 1579 , The King wrote to the Ministers , not to prejudge the Decisions of the Parliament , then approaching , by the Conclusions of their Assembly ; and to Forbear the Practice of any Innovations , till their Meeting . Whereupon , instead of Complying , they proceeded to a Positive Resolution of Adhering to their Former Conclusions ; Question'd the Arch-Bishop of St. Andrews , for giving his Voice in Parliament ; and soon after , by an Act of Assembly , They commanded the Bishops , under Pain of Excommunication , not to Exercise the Office of Pastors , in any sort whatsoever , without Licence from the General Assembly ; and further directing , the Patrimony of the Church to be so disposed of , as they should judg Reasonable at their next Convention : Thus , by Degrees , growing Bolder and Bolder , upon Forbearance . The Particulars of their Usurpations would be too tedious ; I could otherwise tell you of their Iustification of the Treasonous Seizure of the King at Ruthuen ; Their Propositions , and Compleints in 1583 , with the King 's Gentle Return ; Their Covenants , and Seditious Practices , even to the Encouraging ; and Avowing of Open Rebellion . And still the more Plyant , and Easie his Majesty was , The more Contumacious , and Untractable were these People . In the End ; What with the Tumult at Edinburgh , in 1596 ; and the Ministers Band of Confederacy , immediately upon it ; The King was forced upon a Resolution of Rigor , and Severity ; and ( as Spotswood observes ) he received little or no Opposition thereafter . At his Majesties Entry upon the Government of England , the Ceremonies of his first Reception , and Inauguration were scarce over , but He was assaulted with Petitions , and Importunities about the Reformation of the Government , and Liturgie of the Church : in the Name of Thousands of Godly , Learned , and Conscientious Men , that could not Conform : Whereupon , a Proclamation was Issued for a Conference to be held at Hampton-Court , in Ianuary , 1604. So many Bishops , and Deans appointed for the Church ; and for the Petitioners , there appeared , Dr. Reynolds , Dr. Sparkes , Mr. Knewstubb , and Mr. Chadderton . The Points in Controversie , were Particularly , and Solemnly Debated ; and in the End , such Satisfaction given even to the Plaintiffs Themselves , that they all promis'd Obedience ; and Dr. Sparkes became , afterward , an Advocate for the Orders of the Church , and wrote a Treatise for Conformity . Knewstubb indeed boggled a little , and desired to know , How far an Ordinance of the Church was Binding , without Offence to CHRISTIAN LIBERTY ? Upon which General Question , The King turn'd short , and Answer'd him ; Le Roy●…s ' avisera : Let us have no more of Those Questions , How far you are bound to Obey , what the Church has once Ordeined : But Conform at your Peril . While the Business was fresh , they made a faint Pretense of Appealing to another Conference : but upon second Thoughts , they let it totally fall , and never gave the King any further Trouble upon That Subject . Thus far , you see , the Government has been preserv'd by strictness of Order , and Uniformity . We come now to those Fatalities of Tenderness , and Relaxation that destroy'd us . N. C. You never consider , that the Non-Conformists are more Numerous , and Powerful now then formerly they were , by many Degrees : and that the Dissenters Cause has got Ground upon the Church-Interest , ever since . But follow your Discourse . C. In the First of the late King ; was exhibited , in Parliament , A Petition , ( among other Matters ) for the Propagation of the Gospel , and the Restoring of Silenc'd Ministers ; to which , his Majesty , return'd a Gracious , and Yielding Answer , which produc'd a Remonstrance of Miscarriages in Government ; Insomuch , that his Majesty was forced to Dissolve That Parliament . In the Second Year of his Reign ; He call'd another Parliament , which pursu'd the same Method , and went a little Higher then the Former : So that the King was fain to Dissolve That too . In the Year following ; the King call'd Another ; and upon their Meeting , went somewhat a quicker way to work with them : Minding them , in a short , and pertinent Speech , of their Past Failings ; advising them to steer a more Peaceable Course for the Future , and not to put him upon Extremities , to provide for the Safety of his People . This change of Stile , and Resolution , in his Majesty , drew Immediately from the Commons , a Grant of Five Subsidies . The King was too Generous , and Candid to take That Present for a Bait ; and Relapsing into his former Temper of Charity , and Softness , was presently accosted with The Petition of Right ; which , after some Difficulty , and Demur , His Majesty passes : And after This , followed a Petition , Remonstrance , and Protestation , which put an End also to That Convention . Look now a little into the Scotch Affairs , and observe the Growth of the Non-Conformists Demands , from one thing to another ; till in the End , by virtue of what the King Granted them , they possest themselves of all the Rest. In their Tumults ( says his Majesty ) they complein'd only of the Service Book . In their Petition exhibited to the Counsel ; they complein'd of the Service-Book , and Canons . In their Covenant they complein of , and Abjure the Five Articles of Perth . ( although Establish't , first by a General Assembly , and Then by Parliament ) After This , they complein of the High Commission ; And Then , of Prelates Sitting in Civil Judicatories . Hereupon , His Majesty Commissions Marquis Hamilton , with full Power , and Authority , to Conclude , and Determine all such Things as should be found for the Good , Quietness , and Peace of that Kingdom : Directing him also to take the mildest Course that might be , for the Calming of those Commotions . And what Effect had this Peaceable Inclination of His Majesty , upon the Covenanters , but to blow them up into more Seditious , and bolder Practises , against the King's Authority , and the Publique Peace ? They pursue their Demands , and Clamour for a Free General Assembly , and a Parliament . His Majesty gives them all their Askings : Indicts a Free General Assembly , and a Parliament ; Disch●…rges the Service-Book , the Canons ; High-Commission ; The ur●…ing of the Five Articles of Perth : Commands the Subscribing of the Confession of Faith , and the Band thereto annexed ; in the very Form which they pretended to Impose ; And offers them an Act of Indemnity for what was past . In all which Condescentions , the King's Patience , and Mercy only served to heighten , and confirm those Men in their Undertaking , and to expose his Royal Dignity , to Contempt . In the conclusion , the King had so far gratified their Importunities , that they had nothing left to Quarrel upon , but His Majesties refusal to Abolish Episcopacy , and to admit the Authority of their Lay-Elders . From hence , they brake out into open Rebellion ; and ( when the King had them directly at his Mercy ) upon the Interview of the two Armies near Berwick , such was his Tenderness , that upon their Supplication for a Treaty , he Trusted them again , and Concluded a Pacification ; whereof the Covenanters observ'd not so much as One Article . Upon his Return to London , His Majesty ( as is elswhere observed ) passes the Triennial Bill ; Abolishes the Star-Chamber , and High Commission Court : Passes an Act for the Continuance of the Parliament . Not to insist upon the several other Concessions , concerning Ship-money , Forests , and Stannary Courts ; Tunnage and Poundage , Knighthood , &c. Now in Requital of these Benefits , the Faction Claps up , and Prosecutes his Majesties Friends ; Prefers , and Enlarges his Enemies ; Rewards the Scots ; Entertains their Commissioners ; Votes Them their Dear Brethren , for Invading Us ; Calls in all Books , and Proclamations against them . They take away the Bishops Votes ; Impose a Protestation upon the People ; Take away the Earl of Strafford's Life ; Charge Twelve of the Bishops with Treason ; Declare the King's Proclamations to be False , Scandalous , and Illegal ; Keep his Majesty out of his own Towns ; and Seize his Arms , and Ammunition . They present Him with Nineteen Propositions for the Resignation of his Royal Authority . They Vote a General , and Raise an Army against him . They Usurp the Power of the Militia , and give the King Battel ; Levy Moneys ; and Declare the Queen Guilty of Treason . After all These Usurpations upon the Civil Power , They are put to 't to bring the Cause of Religion once again upon the Stage : They enter into a Covenant ; and call in the Scots again ; They Abolish the Common-Prayer ; secure the Person of the King ; Share the Revenues of the Church , and Crown . They Sequester , Banish , and Imprison his Majesties Adherents ; and in the Conclusion , Sell , Depose , and Murder their Soveraign . This was the Fruit of that Pious , and Unfortunate Prince his Clemency , and Indulgence . Now to bring the Instance home to the present Times : What could be more Pious , Gracious , or Obliging , then His Majesties Declaration concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs , in Favour of the Non-Conformists ? All that was possible for the King to do , in Consistence with Conscience , Honour , and the Peace of his Dominions , His Majesty has therein given them a frank Assurance of . ( with their Lives , and Estates , over and above , in the Act of Oblivion ) And are they one jote the Quieter for all This ? No , but the Worse : for no sooner was the King's Tenderness , in That Particular , made Publique , but the Generality ( even of those that had lately Entred into a Regular , and Dutiful Compliance with the Orders of the Church ) started into a new Revolt : which proves sufficiently , the Benefit , and Necessity of a strict Rule , and the hazzard of a Toleration : For rather then abide the Penalty of the Act , they could Conform ; but upon the least Glimpse of a Dispensation , they Rel●…pse into a Schism . Neither do I find , that they were less Troublesom , before the Act of Uniformity , when they Preach'd at Randome , then they have been since ; Nor , to say the Truth , that they have much more Cause of Compleint , Now , then they had Then. For what are they the worse , for a Penalty , that is never Executed ? But if you will have a True Measure of their Moderation , and Good Nature : I pray'e take notice of their Proceedings upon His Majesties Commission , for the Review of the Book of Common-Prayer . We will appoint ( says His Majesty , in his Declaration concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs ) an Equal Number of Learned Divines of Both Perswasions , to Review the * same , and to make such ALTERATIONS as shall be thought most NECESSARY . So that the Alterations were to be agreed upon by BOTH PARTIES , and found likewise to be NECESSARY . Now instead of Alterations , joyntly agreed upon , They Publish a Complete Liturgy of their own ; indeed a New Directory ; but under the Title of The REFORMATION of the Liturgie . ( which in all their Books , signifies ABOLITION ) Give me the favour , next , to observe upon some of their NECESSARY Alterations . They have turn'd WEDDED Wife , into MARRIED . DOEST THOU Believe ? into DO YOU Believe ? All this I STEDFASTLY Believe , into All this I UNFEIGNEDLY Believe . These are some of the Important Scruples , that are cast into the Balance , against the Unity of the Church , and the Peace of the Kingdom . What is This , but to make Sport with Authority , and Conscience ? Laws must be Suspended ; Princes , Vilified and Importun'd ; because , forsooth , the Godly Party may not be Govern'd by Laws of their own making : Nay , by Words of their own chusing too ; So that we are like to have a Schism , for Syllables , as well as for Ceremonies . For what is the Difference betwixt WEDDED , and MARRIED , but that the One wears the Stamp of the Law-Makers , and the Other , of the Law-Menders ? Is it not now evident , that they are the worse for good usage ? And that they have ever been so ? You see the Effects of keeping to a Rule , in Queen Elizabeth , and King Iames : And we have since felt , to our Cost , the Effects of a Relaxation : which abundantly satisfies me , That UNIFORMITY is the true Interest of This Government , and not TOLERATION . N. C. Uniformity is the Interest of This Kingdom , as it is of any other , where there is any fair Possibility of Procuring it . But the Principles of Dissent have taken such Root in this Land , that you may as well think of Depopulating the Nation , as of Uniting it , upon the Points in Question . C. But I am otherwise perswaded ; and that the Party of Non-Conformists is not so considerable , as you make it . SECT . XVIII . The Party of Scrupulous , and Conscientious Non-Conformists , is neither NUMEROUS , nor DANGEROUS . C. I Am apt to believe that Party is not so Numerous as you represent it , for many Reasons , First ; I take English Mens Consciences , and their Neighbours , to be much of a Make : And I do not find the Subject of Our Controversie , to be made Matter of Conscience , by any other sort of Christians whatsoever , out of his Majesties Dominions . N. C. 'T is well we have Good Authority to the Contrary . The Preface to the Directory assures us , that The Liturgy used in the Church of England , hath proved an Offence , not only to the Godly at Home ; but also to the Reformed Churches Abroad . And Smectymnuus tells the Parliament , ( Pag. 10. ) that there is such a vast difference between It , and the Liturgies of all other Reformed Churches as that it keeps them at a Distance from us . C. We 'l talk of That anon ; and in the mean time ( with your good leave ) pursue what we have now before us . Another thing that peswades me the Conscientious number of Dissenters cannot be very great , is This. The Law has made an Ample Provision for their Relief : Leaving every Houshold , with Four more , at Liberty to Worship according to their own way . So that the Laity has no Pretense of Compleint ; Especially , those that plead for the Ordination of their own Ministers , and maintein , that Seven Persons make a Full , Ministerial , and Completely Organiz'd Church . A Man might make an Exception to your Accompt too , upon the score of Old Reckonings ; for you have ever had the faculty of Multiplication . Your Thousands at Hampton-Court , came to a matter of Nine and Forty : And we remember very well , your old way of Personating Petitions , from Multitudes of the Godly , and Well-affected , in both City , and Country ; when , effectually , the poor Innocent Papers never Travell'd farther , then from the Close Committee , to the Lobby . N. C. If you will not Credit Report , believe your Eyes . Do you not find our Meetings Thronged , and many of your Churches Empty ? C. Somewhat , of Both , I must Confess : but yet I am likewise inform'd , that you shew divers of these Meetings , as Peters did his Rings , and Bodkins , at several Places , several times over and over , to make a Noise , ond increase the Reputation of your Party . To contract the Discourse . There is a loud Clamour , and the Ministers make it . And These too , that stickle in the Cause , none of the most Conscientious neither , unless they have a Gospel we never heard of ; to Iustifie Disobedience in Themselves ; the Provoking of it in Others ; The Disturbing of the Publique Peace , and the Sowing of Dissention betwixt Prince , and People : Which is manifestly the Scope of their Writings , and Designs . N. C. That Undertaking goes somewhat too far , to pronounce upon their Designs . Do you pretend to know their Hearts then ? C. Yes ; and with very good Authority , If a Man may be allow'd to judge what Reasonable Men aim at , from deliberate Words , and Actions , that lead naturally , to such and such Certain Ends. And this Humour ( I tell ye ) of Aspersing the Government , and Teizing the Multitude , runs through all their Papers . I durst appeal to your own Soul , Whether you your self can Imagine , that a Twentieth Part of the present Plaintiffs in Matter of Conscience , are truly acted , and possest with that Scrupulosity they pretend to . Alas ! Alas ! You talk of Conscience : 'T is not what every Man Thinks , or Says , that is presently Conscience . We are impos'd upon , by Phansie , Artifice , or Delusion . Some Deceive Themselves , and Others Cousen Us. In one Word ; Whatsoever is not of Conscience , in this Medly , is Faction : And undoubtedly , the Conscientious Party has but a slender share in the Mixture . As That Party is not Numerous , so neither is it Dangerous : upon a Principle of Honesty , and Religion . No Man of Conscience , can either desire to Embroyl the Kingdom , or expect to be the Better for 't . But still have a care how ye take every thing for Gold , that Glisters . Conscience was the Subject of the last Quarrel ; Religion , the Pretext ; Popery the Bug-bear ; And the Issue of it was Dreadful . Consider with your selves ; You have many of the same Persons to lead you on ; And They have the very same Matter too , to work upon . You meant no hurt to the last King , you say ; And yet you ruin'd him : You may perchance Intend as little Harm to This , and yet do him as much . And what amends is it , when the Government is laid again in Dust , and Desolation , to cry , You were Overseen ? If you had thought it should ever have come to This , you would have cut off your Hands , or Tongues ; and I know not what . Look Back ; and Tremble at the Course you are now upon ; for you are , Questionless , in the very Track of the late Rebellion . And one may , without Breach of Charity , conclude , that No Man that was an Active Instrument in the last War , can acquit himself of a most Prodigious Impiety , and Ingratitude , in reviving , and prosecuting the same Interest , and Method now against the SON , by which , he notoriously contributed toward the Death of the FATHER . SECT . XIX . The Non-Conformists Appeal , from the Government , and Discipline of the Church of England , to the Judgment , and Practise of the Reformed Churches BEYOND THE SEAS ; Examined , and Submitted to Censure . C. IT is observable , that throughout the whole Quarrel against the Orders , and Government of the Church of England , the Non-Conformists still fly for Countenance to the Iudgment of the Reformed Churches , Abroad : And so likewise in the Question of Toleration , they Insist much upon the Practise , and Tenderness of Other Churches : As if the Ecclesiastical State of This Kingdom , were as Singular , for Tyranny , and Corruption , as , in Truth , the Litigants Themselves are for Contumacy , and Disobedience . In the Answer of the Two Houses to the Scots Declaration , 164●… . This Government , by Arch-Bishops , Bishops , &c. is Declared to be Evil , justly Offensive , and Burdensom to the Kingdom ; a great Impediment to the Reformation , and Growth of Religion : and Resolved it is , that it shall be taken away : With a Regard to the Introducing of another Government , more apt to procure an Union , with the Church of Scotland , and OTHER REFORMED CHURCHES ABROAD . And the Ministers , in the Petition for Peace , sing the same Note too : If Men ( say they ) must be cast out of the Church , and Ministry , because they are not wiser then the Pastors of most of the REFORMED CHURCHES , &c. As who should say ; The Church of England is the only Protestant Church in the Christian World , that pretends to This Way of Proceeding ; and the Protestants Abroad , are all of the Non-Conformists side . Let this Matter be fairly Examin'd , I beseech you , and we shall quickly see where the Fault lies . In the first Place ; What is the Judgment of the Reformed Churches abroad , touching the English Episcopacy ? N. C. You may read their , Iudgments in their Practises ; Or 't is but looking into the Reformation , in France , Holland , and the Neighbourhood , and you may resolve your self , in that Point . C. Truly I find nothing at all to your Advantage , which way soever I look ; Luther himself distinguishes betwixt Popish Tyrants , and True Bishops , and professes to Condemn them as Popish , not as Bishops . The Authors of the Augustane Confession profess ; that they would willingly preserve the Ecclesiastical , and Canonical Politie , if the Bishops would cease to Tyrannize over their Churches . Bucer declares himself wholly , for Bishops , and Metropolitans : And Melancthon to Luther ; You would not Imagine ( says he ) how some People are Nettled , to see Church-Polity restor'd : as if it were the Romish Sovereignty again . Ita de Regno suo , non de Evangelio , dimicant Socii nostri . As if the Quarrel were Dominion , not Religion . Calvin acknowledges , that the Ancient Government , by Arch-Bishops , and Bishops ; and the Nicene Constitution of Patriarchs , was for Orders sake , and Good Government . And delivers himself to Cardinal Sadolet , with an Anathema upon the Opposers of that Hierarchy , which submits it self to Jesus Christ. Zanchie ( the Compiler of the Gallican Confession ) observes a Change of Name , rather then of Office , throughout most of the German Churches : As Super-Intendents , and General-Super Intendents , in the place of Bishops , and Arch-Bishops : Acknowledging that by the Consent of Histories , Counsels , and the Ancient Fathers , Those Orders have been Generally allowed by all Christian Societies . Where they are in Exercise , let them continue ; and where , by the Iniquity of the Times , they have been abolish'd , they ought to be restor'd . Beza ( the rigid Successor of Calvin ) in excuse to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury , for meddling beyond his Sphere : — We do not charge ( says he ) all Arch-Bishops , and Bishops , with Tyranny . — The Church of England hath offorded many Learned Men , and many Glorious Martyrs of That Function . If That Authority be there still , may a perpetual Blessing go along with it . This , in the Name of the whole Church of Geneva , and Addressed , To the Primate of all England . Totius Angliae Primati . Saravia , arguing for the Hierarchy out of the Apostles Canons , Beza returns him This Answer . This is no more , then what we wish might be restor'd to all Churches . [ Quid aliud hic statuitur , quam quod in omnibus locis , Ecclesiis restitutum cupimus ? The Three Kingdoms of Swede , Denmark , and Norway ( as Mr. Durell observes ) retein the Order still , of Bishops , and Arch-Bishops . In the Protestant Cantons of Switzerland , there is also a Subordination of Ministers . And so in the Palatinate ; in Hessen ; the Duke of Brandenburgh's Territories ; Anhalt , Bremen , Poland , Lithuania , &c. Come we now into France , Holland , and Geneva . And first hear Mr. du Bosc of the Reformed Church of Caen. Well-ordered Episcopacy hath most Important , and Considerable Utilities , which cannot be found in the Presbyterian Discipline . Mr. Gaches , one of the Ministers of Charenton . The best Men in our Churches ( says he ) have honour'd the Prelates of England . — The Name of Schism may do more harm to the Church in one Year ; then the Exc●…ss of Episcopal Authority can do in an Age. And again : Sin hath brought in the Necessity of Government ; and the Failings of Ministers make the Order of Bishops Necessary . Mr. le Moyn , of Rouen , pronounces it to be want of Prudence , and Charity , if any seek the Ruine of Bishops . [ I trust that his Majesty will be sure to re-establish the Authority of the English Church , and use his Power for a perfect Re-union of all the Reformed Churches ; which that be may Effect , His Majesty must preserve his Bishops . I hold it impossible ( says Mr. Gayon of Bourdeaux ) that England can ever be quiet , and flourish , but under the Episcopal Government . In Holland , Bogermannus , ( the President of the Synod at Dort ) upon a Suggestion from the Bishop of Landaff , how fit a Remedy Episcopacy would be for the Suppression of Heresies , and Schism , made this Reply ; Domine , non sumus adeò foelices ] We are not so happy , My Lord. And for Geneva , we have the Voices of the Principals of that Church also , for the Authority , and Advantage of Episcopal Government . So that if you be no better Seconded against our Ceremonies , then you are against our Bishops , you have the whole Stream of Protestant Divines against you . This is according to what I have formerly had occasion to deliver , upon This Subject . N. C. We do dissent , upon just Reasons , from the Ecclessastical Hierarchy , 〈◊〉 Prelacy , ( DISCLAIMED IN COVENANT ) as it was Stated , and Exercised in These Kingdoms ; yet do 〈◊〉 , nor ever did renounce the True , Ancient , Primitive Episcopacy , as it was Balanced , or Menaged by a Due Commixtion of Presbyters therewith . C. We are not here to Debate the Qualifications , and Limits of the Episcopacy you pretend to : but to proceed , having made it appear , that the Hierarchy , which , ( under Colour of Reduction , or Commixtion ) you formerly rooted out , and are now again undermining ; is That very Hierarchy , which you have now heard Reverenced , and Recommended by so many Venerable Testimonies . Or , if after all This , you can but produce one Publick Act of any Protestant Church , beyond the Seas , in favour of your Claim , do it ; and save your Party the Credit , of not being Single , and Particular in your Schism . What have you next to say against our Ceremonies ? N. C. All the best Reformed Churches of Christ , ( who only are Competent Iudges in this Case , and to whose Iudgment , and Example , we ought rather to Conform our selves , in Ceremonies , then to the Synagague of Anti-Christ ) do esteem those Ceremonies , Needless , Inexpedient , and Fit to be Abolished : How the Churches of other Countries approve of them , may appear sufficiently by this , that they have banished the use of them out of their Assemblies . C. Are they only NEEDLESS , INEXPEDIENT , and FIT to be Abolish'd then ? I thought you would have found them absolutely UNLAWFUL , IDOLATROUS , and upon pein of DAMNATION , not to be RETEINED . According to This Measure , What will become of the whole Frame of our Government , if it shall take you in the head , to say the same thing of every Law , and Constitution of the Land ? Ceremonies will not down with you , because they are Needless , Inexpedient , &c. I beseech you , shew me the Needfulness of Killing , and Plundring , or the Expedience of Dissolving Publique Laws , and Depopulating Kingdoms : And yet These are Matters you can Swallow , even without Chewing . Needless ? And Inexpedient ? So●…ly , I beseech you ; you are for teaching your Governours more WIT , as well as more Religion , and Conscience . N. C. ●…eep to your Text I pray'e ; for we are not now upon the Lawfulness of the English Ceremonies ; but upon an Enquiry , What Enterteinment they receive in the judgment , and Practise of other Reformed Churches : without engaging our selves in any other Consideration of their Reason , and Convenience . I say , they are banish'd out of their Assemblies , and you are at Liberty ( if you can ) to prove the Contrary . C. Let us first see how far we agree upon the Allowance of any Ceremonies at all , and where to place the Right , and Authority of Imposing them . The Church of England thinks it convenient , that every Country should use such Ceremonies as they shall think best , to the setting forth of God's Honour , and Glory , &c. Which is according to the sense of Other Reformed Churches , as appears by their several Confessions . With Us agrees , first , the Church of Helvetia . [ Churches have always used their Liberty in Rites , as being things Indifferent . which we also do at this Day . That of Bohemia likewise : [ Humane Traditions . and Ceremonies , brought in by a Good Custom , are with an Uniform Consent to be reteined in the Ecclesiastical Assemblies of Christian People , at the Common Service of God. The Gallican ; [ Every Place may have their Peculiar Constitutions , as it shall seem meet for them . The Belgique ; [ We receive those Laws that are fit , either to cherish or maintein Concord , or to keep us in the Obedience of God. That of Auspurgh ; [ Ecclesiastical Rites , which are Ordein'd by Man's Authority , and tend to Quietness , and Good Order in the Church , are to be Observed . That of Saxony ; [ For Order sake , there must be some Decent , and Seemly Ceremonies . That of Swethland ; Sueh Traditions of Men , as agree with the Scriptures , and were Ordeined for Good Manners . and the Profit of Men , are worthily to be accounted rather of God then of Man. N. C. The Question is not , about an Agreement in Ceremonies that may be Exercised without Offence , either to God , or Man ; ( according to your Instances ) but about their Liking , or Dislike , of Those in Practise among Us : As the Surplice ; Kneeling at the Communion ; The Cross in Baptism , and the like . C. As to the SURPLICE ; Mr. Durell tells you , that the Churches that Conform to the Confession of Augsburgh , have the very same Ceremonies with the Church of England : And Surplices in many Places . And further ; that a National Assembly at Charenton , Anno 1631. hath declared , that there is neither Idolatry , nor Superstition in That Worship . The Protestant Ministers also in Bohemia , Lithuania , Prussia , make no Scruple at all of Preaching in Surplices , whensoever they are called upon to Preach where Surplices are used . Nay , Calvin himself , does not approve of Hooper ' s violent Inconformity in that Point . [ De Pileo , & Veste Linea , maluissem ( ut illa etiam non probem ) non usque adeo ipsum pugnare : Idque nuper suadebam . And let Mr. Baxter pin the Basket. Some Decent Garment is necessary ; either the Magistrate , or Minister himself , or the Associated Pastors must determine what . If the Magistrate or Synod tie all to one Habit , ( Suppose it Indeoent ) yet this is but an Imprudent use of Power , and the thing it self being Lawful , I would Obey , and use that Garment . N. C. You only make mention , where it has been used , and permitted ; but you take no Notice where it has been Rejected . And then the Personal Authorities you cite , in favour of it , declare their Iudgments to be still against it . C. But only so against it , as not to Allow of a Separation , upon That Scruple . Now whereas you object the Refusal , or Rejection of it , elsewhere : It does not follow , that every Church disallows , what it does not Practise : And it shall content me , to find the Practise of so many Churches for us , and None , against us . As to KNEELING at the Communion ; the Bohemian Churches use that Posture , and so do the Churches of Poland . With whom , the French , and Dutch do so far agree , as In hoc Ritu , suam cuique Ecclesiae Libertatatem salvam relinquere . To leave every Church at its own Freedom , in that Particular . ] Mr. Baxter in his Five Disputations , does also profess , that rather then disturb the Peace of the Church , he would Kneel too ; How hardly soever he may think of the Imposition . So that in the Case of Kneeling , likewise , we have several of the Reformed Churches that joyn with us in the Practise of it , and not so much as any one of them , that appears in our Condemnation . Touching the Use of the CROSS in Baptism ; ( beside the undeniable Antiquity of the Custom ) you may hear from Mr. Durell , that The Reformed Churches of the Confession of Augsburgh , do for the most part , use it ; and that at Paris , many Children of the Church of Charenton , have been Baptized in the Chappels of the English Embassadours there , according to the Rites of the Church of England . And moreover , that only the Nonconforming English , and Scotch oppose it . I could enlarge my self , upon very good Authority , to the justification of our way of Worship , throughout , in every Particular of your Exceptions ; but I will rather chuse to encounter all your Objections at once ; by proving , that the Protestant Churches , Abroad , have as great a Reverence for the Authority , Rites , and Ceremonies of the Church of England , in the whole Frame of the Constitution , as they have a Kindness for the several Parts of it , which they do severally Exercise among Themselves . I must still be beholden to the Industry of the Reverend Durell , who has much obliged us with a clear , and Methodical Manifestation of the Agreement of the Church of England , ( as it is now Established by the Act of Uniformity ) with other Reformed Churches beyond the Seas . Sir Iohn Colladon ( one of his Majesties Physicians in Ordinary ) had the Honour to Congratulate his Majesties Restauration , from the City and Church of Geneva , and from the Protestant Cantons in Switzerland . Upon his Departure , he put this Quaere to the Rulers of the said Church ; Whether he might Lawfully Joyn with the Church of England , in Publique Worship , and receive the Holy Sacrament according to the usual Rites thereof ? It was Answer'd , That he might ; and that it was not to be Question'd . Here is also , A whole French Reformed Congregation , that hath Conformed to the Rites , and Ceremonies of the Church of England , to the great Satisfaction of the Divines of Rouen , Paris , Geneva , Bourdeaux , &c. And since the Establishment of This Church , divers Ministers have come over , from Geneva , France , Germany , Poland , Lithuania , Piemont ; Students , Elders , Private Persons : And none of them ever yet refused , either to Assist , or to Conform . Mr. de Laune , Minister of the Wallons Church at Norwich ; and Mr. Calendrin , one of the Ministers of the Dutch Church in London , have divers times Officiated in English Congregations , according to the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England ] Without any Scandal , either Given or Taken . Nay , so far are they from disowning us , that the French Divines hold them for Schismatiques , and Punishable , that refuse Communion with us . * Bucer thanks God with all his Soul , to see the English Ceremonies so pure . N. C. And have they , I beseech you , their Set Forms ? Their Peremptory Impositions ? Their Declarations , and Subscriptions ? C. Yes , yes : All This , and more . For Set Forms , methinks you should rather tell me any one Reformed Church that wants a Set Form , then put me to the Trouble of Naming all that have . Calvin , and Beza are Positive for them . Geneva , much more severe for the Observance of them , then we are here ; Inconformity There , is cause of Banishment for a Year : And the Gallican Church makes it a matter of Excommunication . In Geneva ; Calvin Establish'd his Discipline by an OATH , both upon People , and Pastors , to observe That Form for ever after . The Ministers take an Oath of Canonical Obedience , in Hungary ; And the French Divines are not admitted , without Subscription . There 's no Imposing upon Publique Laws , with Private Scruples : No Bandying allow'd , betwixt Conscience , and Authority : He that will not submit to the Orders of a Community , Away with him . ( says Calvin ) It is not enough to take cheque at the Constitutions of the Church , under colour of a weak Conscience ( or so pretended ) but you must be fully satisfied , that the Constitution is Wicked IN IT SELF . Nay , Calvin carries it further . Suppose it really ministers Matter of Offence ; ( says he ) That will not serve to vacate the Obligation , unless it be also found to be Simply , and IN IT SELF Repugnant to the Word of God. [ Quia tamen Verbo Dei PERSE non Repugnat , Concedi potest . To provide against Evil Consequences , is the Magistrates Duty , not the Subjects . N. C. The Worship of God , is in it self Pure , and Perfect , and Decent , without having any such Ceremonies affixed thereunto ; [ And many Faithful Servants of the Lord , knowing his Word to be a Perfect Rule of Faith , and Worship , have ever been exceeding fearful of Uarying from his Will , and of the Danger of Displeasing him , by Additions , or Detractions , in such Duties . C. You will hardly find any honest President for this Nicety . ( Calvin would have given it a worse Name ) Testatum Velim ( says he ) me non de Ceremoniis Litigare , quae Decoro tantum , & Ordini Serviant : vel etiam Symbola sunt , & Incitamenta ejus quam Deo deferimus Reverentiae . He Declares himself , you see , not only for Ceremonies , of Order , and Decency ; but for Ceremonies of Significancy , and Incitement to Reverence and Devotion . And in another place , Ergone ( Inquies ) nihil Ceremoniarum rudioribus dabitur , ad juvandam Eorum Imperitiam ? Id ego non dico ; omnino enim utile illis esse sentio , hoc Genus Adminiculi . ] Will you allow of no Ceremonies then at all , ( you 'l say ) for the Instruction of the Vulgar ? You do not hear me say so ; for I am clearly of opinion ; that they are of very great use , and service to the People . Upon the Main ; The English Non-Conformists , ( as Mr. Durell well observes ) are a sort of People by themselves : and Non-Conformists , at Geneva , and Francfort , as well as at Canterbury , or London . N. C. But still , methinks , whatever our Consciences are as to the way of Publick Worship , we might yet be Indulged with an Allowance of ●…erving God among our selves . Why should a Toleration do worse Here , then in Holland ? C. I might Answer you with another Question . Why should a Commonwealth do worse Here , then in Holland ? Or Why should a Standing Army do worse Here , then in Holland ? Beside ; If you look narrowly into it , you will find the Dissenters from the Settlement There , to be rather Strangers , then Natives . English , French , High-Dutch , that flowed in to them upon the General Revolt from the Church of Rome : Lutherans , and Anabaptists , out of Germany ; Calvinists out of France ; Separatists , and Semiseparatists out of England , in the Days of Queen Mary , and Independents , since ; all which were entertein'd , more out of Regard to Policy , then Conscience ; their Business being at that time to shake off the Yoke of Spain , and Change the Government : To which End , these several Parties contributed effectually , by preparing the People for the Alteration Intended ; and inuring them to New Principles , both of Religion , and State. And yet you are not to understand Theirs to be a Perfect Toleration neither . For you see , they would not , upon any terms , allow That Freedom to the Arminians , which they did to Others ; but Conven'd a Synod , and Exterminated the Sect. The reason was , they had a Jealousie of the Arminians , for Barnevelt's sake , the Head of that Party . You are to take notice also of the great difference betwixt the Interest , and Condition , of Our Ministers , and Theirs . Our Clergy have a Freehold in their Benefices for Term of Life ; and if they be Factiously disposed , they may Evade the Law , and do a Mischief , without making a Forfeiture . Whereas Theirs Preach upon Good Behaviour ; Live upon the States Pay ; and upon the least Colour of Offence , may be turn'd off at pleasure . I need not tell you what Havock , Peters , Bridges , Sympson , Ward , made in Holland : But what they did Abroad , the same thing they would have done at Home , if they had been Tolerated . N. C. What do ye think of Poland then ? C. I think , That Story speaks little to your Advantage : take it either in Respect of their frequent Seditions , or in Regard of their Prodigious , and Heretical Opinions : And yet they live under the strongest Obligation in Nature to keep them quiet ; The Tartar , and other Powerful Neighbours , lying hard upon them ; which makes their Case to be rather an Agreement against a Common Enemy , then among Themselves . N. C. Now take all at the worst ; It is but Athanasius against the World , and The World against Athanasius . Number and Truth , are not always of a Side . C. And yet Your Multitudes make up a great part of your Argument . This however let me speak for you ; There has no Industry been wanting to Propagate your Profession . In the Year 1619. The Scotch Discipline was presented to the Synod at Dort , for their Approbation : But they would not meddle with it . Anno 1654. Upon the Reprinting ( at Geneva ) of A Collection of the several Confessions of Faith , received in all the Reformed Churches of Europe ; under the Title of , Corpus , & Syntag●…a Confessionum Fidei , &c. It was moved that the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England , might be left out , and the Assembly Mens Confession , put in the place : But the Motion was totally rejected ; The Thirty nine Articles Inserted , and not a Word of the Directory . They had no better luck with their Covenant neither , then with their Discipline . [ The Ministers , and others of the Consistory at Charenton , and of other Reformed Churches in France ; as also the Professours , Ministers , and Consistory of Geneva , and of other Neighbouring Reformed Churches in those Parts , were so scandalized with this Prodigious Covenant , as that they were afraid of nothing more , then this , that it would bring an indeleble Scandal upon the Reformed Churches , and alienate the Minds of all the Princes of Christendom , from ever enterteining a good Thought of their Religion . The Venerable Assembly of English Divines , and Scotch Commissioners ( as they stiled Themselves ) sent the Copy of their Covenant , and a Solemn Invitation to Seventeen Reformed Churches beyond the Seas to Ioyn with them . Their Letter should have been Latin ; But so it was , that they left it a Measuring Cast , whether they were the better Christians , Casuists , Subjects , or Grammarians . Their skill was most employ'd , in Exhorting the French Protestants to follow Their Example , and cast off the Yoke of Antichrist ; ( that is to say , of Obedience ) And in Calumniating their Sovereign , as a Confederate with the Popish Interest , to destroy the Protestancy . Which Design , was only to be obviated , by a Holy League . This was the Drift of the Address ; But we never heard Syllable of the Answer . There needs no more be said to prove the Judgment of the Reformed Churches strong , and unanimous against you ; and you had best make a Trial , if you can supply by Reason , and Argument , what you want in Countenance , and Authority . SECT . XX. The Non-Conformists Exceptions to O●… Publique Way of Worship , found Guilty of Great IMPIETY , and ERROUR . C. WHat are your Exceptions to Our Way of Worship ? Are they General ; or Particular ? Is it th●… Imposition it self , or the Thing Imposed , that displeases you ? N. C. Why truly Both. The One takes away my Christian Liberty ; and the Other , the Liberty of my Conscience . The greatest part of my Trouble , i●… the Act of Uniformity . C. Is it the Model , or the Uniformity you stick at ? N. C. Both alike ; for neither is the Particular Act fram'd to my Satisfaction ; nor is it possible that any One Form of Worship should suit All Iudgments . C. Will Toleration suite All Iudgments , any better then Uniformity ? But , I perceive , you do not accompt the Sanction of any One Form whatsoever to be Lawful . N. C. Indeed I do not think it Lawful for a Magistrate to enjoyn any thing upon a Penalty , which a Private Person may not Conscienciously Obey him in ; Nor do I think it Warrantable , for a Man to Obey any Humane Command , against the Dictate of his Conscience . C. Put This together now . First , It is not Possible that any One Form of Worship should suit All Judgments : And then , It is not Lawful to enjoyn any thing upon a Penalty , which does Not suit All Judgments . What is This , but a meer Trifling of Government ; to suppose a Law , without an Obligation ? Again ; If the Magistrate cannot Impose , neither can he Tolerate ; unless you 'l suppose him a more Competent Judge of Four Conscience , then of his Own : for you allow him to Understand what he may Tolerate , and deny him the Knowledge of what he may Impose . So that either he has no Power , or no Reason to favour you : No Power , as you state his Capacity ; And no Reason , as you disclaim his Authority . But you were saying , that the Imposition , takes away your Christian Liberty . As how , I beseech ye ? N. C. In making Those things Necessary , which Christ left Free. For wherein does Christian Liberty more concern it self , then in the Free use 〈◊〉 Indifferent , or the Forbear●…nce of Doubtful things , which we are bound entirely 〈◊〉 preserve ; And whereof , by your Ecclesiastical Injunctions , we stand Depriv'd ? C. If the King be Ty'd up , in Matte●… that are either Commanded , or Forbidden ; and the People left at Liberty , in things Indifferent : I would fain know what Authority has to work upon . But thi●… Point will fall in of it self by and by : Though enough be said already , to prove your Position utterly destructive of Order , and Society . For there is but Good , Bad , and Indifferent , in Nature : What we are BOUND to do ; What we are Bound NOT to do ; and What we may either DO , or LET ALONE . ( That is to say , without the Interposal of some Incidental Obligation to determi●… that Indifference ) The Asserters of this Doctrine , fetch their Warrant for it , out of St. Paul 〈◊〉 the Galatians 5. 1. Stand fast in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made us Free. Upon This Text they ground their Exemption . But here they prudently st●… too ; for the Context would have spoil'd all : And they might as well have Argu'd against the Efficacy of Christ's Death , from the latter part of the second Verse , as for Christian Immunity , ( in the Latitude they understand it ) from the former part of the first . The Apostle goes on in These Words ; And be not entangled AGAIN with the Yoke of Bondage . 〈◊〉 Behold ; I Paul say unto you , that if ye be CIRCUMCISED , Christ shall profit you nothing . 3 For I testifie again to every Man that is CIRCUMCISED , that he is a Debtor to do the whole Law. The Case , briefly , was This. By the Coming of our Blessed Saviour , the Iewish Ceremonies were abolish'd : Some that had a mind to Continue them , and keep the People still under the Yoke of the Law , stood for the Doctrine of the Circumcision . ( which was here the very Matter in Q●…estion ) The Apostle cautions the Galatians against it ; and not to be entangled AGAIN with the Bondage of the Law. Which amounts only to a Discharge from the Bondage of That Law to which they were before Subjected ; without extending That Liberty , to the Prejudging of Authoritative Laws , and Impositions for the time to come . As if the Apostle had Preached one thing to the Galatians , and the contrary to the Romans , Obedience , at pleasure , in one place ; and Obedience under pein of Damnation , in another . In the Second , and Third Verses , St. Paul ( you see ) clears , and presses it further . As if he had said ; Be Circumcised at your Peril . For That single Point of the Law , makes you answerable for the Performance of every Title of it . We are not ( says Calvin ) ( Perperam ad Peliticum Ordinem ) perversly to apply the Doctrine of Spiritual Liberty , to Political Order , as if Christians were to be ever the less Subject to External Government by Humane Laws , because their Consciences are set at Liberty before God. Nay , says he , in another place ; Si Ecclesiae Incolumitati benè prospectum volumus ] The Church can never be safe , without St. Paul's Decency and Order . But in regard of the diversity of Customs ; and the variety of Mens Minds , and Opinions ; It is not possible to secure any Polity , without the Authority of certain Laws ; or to preserve any Order , without some stated Form. Now so far am I from condemning any Laws conducing to this End , [ Ut his ablatis , dissolvi suis Nervis Ecclesias , Totasque Deformari , & Dissipari contendamus ] that I look upon the Removal of them , as the Dissolution of the very Sinews of the Church , and expect nothing after it , but DEFORMITY , and DISSIPATION . Nor is it to be Imagin'd , that All things should be done Decently , and in Order , ( after the Apostles Precept ) but by the mediation of certain Rules , and Observations , which may serve as so many Bonds for the Regulation of that Decency , and Order . Always provided , That Those Ceremonies be not Imposed as Necessary to Salvation , or Essential to God's Worship . From your Plea for Christian Liberty , ( which is a Proposition , in it self , destructive of all Communities ) let us now move to your next Exception , in the Matter of Scruple : wich I am afraid will be found no less Intolerable in Religion , then the other was in Government ; and Dangerous enough in Both. It would take a Man an Age to run through all the Quirks , and Niceties of the Question ; and to trace every Particular , in dispute , from the Original of its Practice , or Institution . And beside ; It were but Actum Agere ; for the Lawfulness , and the Antiquity of Bishops , Liturgies , and Ceremonies , with all the Minutes , sion : I am perswaded , it would pose the ●…est Conveyancers in this Kingdom , to draw up a Deed of Trust , to That Purpose , without a Flaw in 't . That is to say : A Commission from the Diffusive Body of the People , must be Directed to such and such Ministers , as Commissioners for Tender Consciences . From HEAVEN it never came neither , I do verily believe . For most certainly Christ , and his Apostles , never Issued out any Commission , for the Distracting of Consciences , and Societies . We read indeed of CONFIRMING the Weak , but not a Syllable , of STAGGERING them . And for the Extraordinary Ways , of Vision , and Revelation , they are not so much as mention'd . N. C. If you would have given me leave , I should have told you , e'en now , that they are Warranted by a Sense , and Impression of Conscience , in the Discharge of their Pastoral Duty : Which obliges them , [ To watch over their Flock ; To preserve them from Errours , Heresies , Divisions ; To Defend the Truth , Confute Gainsayers , and Seducers , Instruct the Ignorant , Excite the Negligent , Encourage the Despondent , Comfort the Afflicted , Confirm the Weak , Rebuke , and Admonish the Disorderly , and Scandalous . C. Here 's much against you , and no●…●…ne Word in your Favour . Instead of PRESERVING their Flocks FROM Heresies , and Divisions , your Pastors demand a down-right TOLERATION of them . And instead of Encouraging the Despondent , Comforting the Afflicted , and Confirming the Weak ; They tell the Distressed , ( for their Comfort ) that if they do any thing with Doubting , they shall be Damn'd ; and never go further , to deliver them from those Doubts ; but there they very fairly leave them , Surrounded with in●…xtricable Scruples ; and their very Souls , Broken , and Confounded with Agony , and Horrour . Whether they do Well , or Ill , now be You your self the Iudge . My Opinion is , that they have as little to say for the Conscience of their Proceedings , as any way else . First , Their very Preaching , and Writing , ( by reason of their Legal Incapacity ) is a Transgression of the Law. Secondly , In the Matter it self , they are to blame ; for it is of very evil Consequence , both upon the Publique , and upon Particulars . To sa●… nothing of their Undertaking for other Mens Consciences , which is a Privilege belonging only to God himself . That they do Ill , in disobeying the Law , and in troubling the Government , I suppose you will not deny ; And yet am I perswaded , that the very Foundation of their Plea for Separation , and Dissent , is the greatest part of the Mischief . We have Laws Ecclesi●…l , for the Ordering of the Church ; and you refuse to Obey them ▪ For what Reason , I beseech you ? N. C. The best Guide in the Case of Impositions , and Obedience , I take to be the Word of God and our Doubtings sure are very Reasonable , concerning God's Worship ▪ where the Scripture gives no Direction . Shew us where they are Comma●…ded in the Gospel , and we are ready to Obey them . ; C. The Scripture is the Rule of our Faith , not of our Outward Actions , and Practise . 〈◊〉 Whatsoever , to make up the Doctrine of Man's SALVATION , is added , as in supply of the Scriptures Insufficiency , we reject it . But does it therefore follow , that ALL things Lawful to be done , are comprehended in the Scripture ? Admit . This , and God in delivering Scripture to his Church , should clear have abrogated amongst them , the Law of Nature , which is , An Infallible Knowledge Imprinted in the Minds of all the Children of Men , directing us in the Choice of Good and Evil , in the Daily Affairs of this Life . Admit This ; and what shall the Scripture be , but a Snare , and a Torment to Weak Consciences , filling them with Infinite Perplexities , Scrupulosities , Doubts Insoluble , and Extreme Despairs . Not●… that the Scripture it self doth cause any such thing , but the Necessities of this Life , urging Men to do that which the Light of Nature , Common Discretion , and Judgment of it self directeth Men unto : On the other side , This Doctrine teaching them that so to do , wire to sin against their Souls ; and that they put forth their Hands to Iniquity , whatsoever they go about , and have not first the Sacred Scripture of God for their Direction . How can it chuse but bring the Simple a Thousand Times to their Wit●… End ? How can it chuse but v●…x and amaze them ; to be obliged in every Action of Common Life , to find out some Sentence of Scripture , Clearly , and Infallibly setting forth , what we ought to do ? Admit This , and it shall not be with Masters , as it was with him in the Gospel ; but Servants being commanded to go , shall stand still , till they have their Errand Warranted unto them by Scriptures . Thus far the Learned Hooker : in Agreement with Mr. Calvin , ( the Oracle of the other Party ) in his Chapter of Christian Liberty , who writes to this Effect . Let every Man have a care not to make things Indifferent , Matters of Religion ; for nothing can be more necessary then the right understanding of That Liberty ; without which , we shall never have any Peace of Conscience , and there will be no End of Superstition . [ Quae si aberit , nulla Conscientiis nostris futura est Quies ; Nullus Superstitionum finis ] He that Scruples the Lawfulness of Eating , or Drinking Delicacies , will by degrees , let his Scruple fall to Meats and Drinks l●…ss Delicats , and so from one thing , to another , Lower , and Lower ; ( and all this while , in a perpetual Anxiety of Conscience ) till he comes at last to satisfie himself , that what he takes , both for Quantity , and Quality , is but just sufficient to entertein the absolute Necessities of Nature . He must have a Text for every thing he does ; and not step over a Straw , without consulting Scripture first : and every Common Action is made a Case of Conscience . From this miserable Perplexity of Mind , what can be expected , but Despair , and Confusion ? Hanging , Drowning , Cutting of Throats , and all the wretched Extremities of Violence , which those poor Creatures exercise upon themselves , as their last Retreat , to avoid the Fury of a Tormenting Conscience . This is the Fruit of the Doctrine of CHRISTIAN LIBERTY ; a Dangerous , and an Impious Position ; and can have no other Aim , ( In Truth , scarce any other Issue ) than the Vacating of Humane Laws ; and the Extermination of all Principles of Duty , and Subjection out of the Hearts of the People . But to be as short as may be , you see the Effects of your Scruples ; pray'e speak a little to the Grounds of them . What Exceptions have you to our COMMON PRAYER ? And see if you do not from one end to the other , fall foul upon your Arguments . N. C. It is devised by Men. C. So are your Ministers Prayers ; and ●…l Prayers whatsoever , Scripture-Forms Excepted . N. C. It is Imposed upon the Minister , and People , of Necessity . C. The Imposition of the Directory was yet more General , Strict , and Peremptory . There was no Dispensation for a Family , and Four more , which , as it might be improv'd , takes in well nigh the whole Kingdom . N. C. But your Common Prayer is stinted , both in Matter , and Words , to be used without Variation : and so was not the Directory . C. Why may not the Church impose a Stinted Form upon the Minister , as well as the Minister , ( if he so pleases ) upon the People ? For if the Minister be left at Liberty either to keep to one Form , or to vary , at his own Election , The Congregation is at his Mercy , whether they shall have a Stinted Form , or No. Smectymnuus is so gracious as to allow of a Stinted Form , Himself ; in Case the Minister shall be found insufficient to discharge the Duty of Prayer in a Conceived way : But then it is to be Imposed on him as a Punishment : To use Set Forms , and no other . So that it is not the Unlawfulness it seems , of a Set Form , nor the Imposition , but the Inexpedience you stumble at : And the World is at a fine pass sure , when the Parliament of England shall not presume to make Laws , without asking the Si●…c'd Ministers Opinions first , about the Expedience of them . The Directory , as to the Matter of it , is as well a Stinting of the Spirit , as the Common Prayer . For in the Sulstance , and Scope of the Prayer , the Minister is limited ; only for the WORDING of it , he is at his own Freedom : And if he may but Turn ALMIGHTY and most MERCIFUL Father , into OMNIPOTENT and most GRACIOUS Lord God , the Peace is concluded . Otherwise we are to look for nothing but Fire and Sword : Lives , Laws , and Liberties , must be hazzarded i●… the Quarrel . N. C. Do you make no difference between Imposing Set Forms , upon a few Insufficient Ministers , and upon a Multitude of Others , in Common , that have the Gift of Prayer ? C. No , none at all , as to the Exemption of Any Man from the General Rule . Beside ; What Security can any Man give , that he shall continue in the Right Exercise of his Reason ? Put case your Gifted Minister should be taken with some Distemper that seizes the Brain , and Disorders , ( or but Clouds ) his Understanding : Nay , let it be only some faint , drowsie Indisposition of Body , or heaviness of Mind ; What becomes of the Assembly , under so Languid , Spiritless , ( and perchance Extravagant ) a Dispensation ? Further : The Right , and the Reason too , of Imposing upon One Minister , extends to All. Again : If a Set Form may be admitted , where the Minister is not good at Extempore ; What becomes of your Argument , I beseech ye , for the Consciences of the CONGREGATION ? Unless you understand the Weakness of the Minister to be a Dispensation for the Scruples of the People ; In which case , it may be lawful for the King and Parliament to Impose a Service-Book . And yet again : Over and above the Vanity , and the Arrogance of the Undertaking ; do me but the favour to consider , what an Irreverence , what a Prophanation of Gods Holy Worship , and Ordinances , must needs ensue upon it . The Desk is turn'd into an Oratory , as well for the TRYAL of Gifts , and Faculties , as for the EXERCISE of them : and half the Business the Congregation has at Church , is to hear Men Talk to God Almighty , upon their Probation : which is done too , ( God knows it , even at the best ) not without great Imperfections , and Failings ; witness their [ Affectations , Emptiness , Impertinency , Rudeness , Con fusion , Flatness , Levity , O●…scurity , vain , and Ridiculous Repetitions , their Sensl●…ss , and oft-times Blasphemous Expressions : ] which are but Helps at a Plunge , either to gain time for the recovery of their lost Matter , or to stop Gaps , and fill up Broken Sentences . Now where 's the Life , and Power ( as you call it ) of Devotion , all this while ; when the Whole Man is taken up , ( and all little enough too ) about Words , and Periods ; And the Ministers chief Care diverted from the Saving of Souls , to the Saving of his own Credit ? Hence proceeds That Agreement of Tone , and Emphasis , in all their Exclamations , Acted Passions , and Vain Repetitions , with now and then a Groan drawn out to a most Doleful Length for a Parenthesis . For they are all sick of the same Disease , and these Interjections give them a little Breath , and Respit , for Recollection . Now in This loss of Sense , ●…nd Order , How is it possible for the Affections of the Congregation , to keep company with the Minister in all his Wandrings , Doubtings , and Circumlocutions ? The one half of their Intention is spent in Divining ( before-hand ) what he drives at ; and the other , in unriddling his Meaning , when he has Deliver'd it . Whereas in Set-Forms , both Minister and People are freed from These Distractions , and totally intent upon the Duty of the Worship : and there is a greater Harmony , and Union of Affections , when they Pray All at the same Time , in the same Words , and for the same Thing . I might insist upon the Inconvenience of leaving Ministers at Liberty , for fear of disturbing the Publique : and tell you over and over , that in our Stinted Forms we do but joyn in the Common Privilege of Other Churches : But more then enough is spoken Already . Let me hear now what you have to say against our Ceremonies . N. C. Whereas Kneeling is Imposed , in the Act of Receiving the Lord's Supper , We desire that none may be Troubled for Receiving it Standing , or Sitting . C. You have quitted your Hold , I perceive , of Scriptural Direction , and President . For neither Standing , nor Sitting was the Tricliniary Posture . But why not Kneeling , as well as either Sitting , or Standing ? N. C. Because it is a Novelty ; contrary to the Decrees , and Practise of the Church , for many Hundred Years after the Apostles . And it has been forbidden by General Councils . And it is not Good also to shew a needless Countenance of Adoring the Bread of God. C. Can you shew me that Kneeling at the Lord's Supper has been forbidden , where Kneeling at other parts of Publique Worship has been Allow'd ? Now you your selves allow of , and Practise Kneeling in other Cases , which is every jote as contrary to the Ancient Custom , as Our Kneeling at the Sacrament . But We must not Kneel , you say , for fear of Countenanceing the Adoration of the Breaden God. To which I Answer , that First , The Doctrine of our Church speaks directly to the Contrary . Secondly , The Rubrick directs Kneeling at the Confession ; and the People continue Kneeling , at the Receiving . N. C. But with your Favour , the Rubrick does afresh enjoyn Kneeling : and order the Communion to be delivered into the Peoples Hands KNEELING . C. Right . And now take your Choice , whether we shall rather run the hazzard of being suspected to adore the Breed , because we receive it after the English Gesture of Worshipping , which is Kneeling ; or incur the same Censure , by Changing Posture , and taking it after the Ancient way of Worshipping , which is Standing ? If you can make appear , that where the Custom was to Worship Standing , they Received , Kneeling ; you say something toward the perswading of us that Worship Kneeling , to Receive Stànding . Your Exceptions throughout , are much of a Quality ; Negatively Imposing upon Authority , because you will not be Positively bound up your selves . For , You shall NOT do This , or That , is an Imposition , as well as You SHALL . Another Humour you have gotten , of Scrupling at Ceremonies , because they are made as Necessary to Salvation , as the Word it self , and the Sacraments . ( This is the Suggestion of the Petition for Peace , Pa. 8. ) Whereas it has been , and still it is the Constant Care of the Imposers themselves , by an express Solemnity of Explanation , to satisfie the whole World to the Contrary . Give us leave only for one Word more , and that out of Calvin's Institutions , concerning Scandal ; ( Lib. 3. Cap. 19. ) which you make one part of your Compleint . There is ( says he ) a Scandal GIVEN , and TAKEN . The One is the Scandal of the Weak ; the Other , of the Pharisees ; who out of a p●…rverse Malignity of Spirit , turn every thing to the worse . There is no Yielding to this sort of Men ; No Enduring , no Hearing of them : [ Qui quum in mille Impietatis Formas Duces se praebent , sic sibi agendum fingunt , ne proximo sint Offendiculo . Who , under colour of Tenderness in the Matter of Scandal , make no Conscience at all of a thousand Gross Impieties . This is His Iudgment , and Our Case : And there is no Remedy , but by concluding upon a Final , and Unaccomptable Iudge . SECT . XXI . Whatsoever God hath left INDIFFERENT , is the Subject of HUMANE POWER . C. AS Reasonable Nature consists of Soul , and Body ; so is the Authority that Governs it , Divine , and Humane : God , Eminently over All , and Princes Ministerially , under Him , and as his Substitutes . The Dominion of our Souls , God reserves Peculiarly to Himself , committing That of our Bodies to the Care of the Magistrate . Now if Power be a Divine Ordinance , so consequently is Subjection ; for to Imagine the One , without the Other , were to destroy the Reason of Relatives . A Strict , and Accurate Disquisition of This Matter , would save us much Trouble that arises about the Bounds , and Limits of our Duty ; How far Religion binds us , and how far Allegeance . That they are severable , we are not to doubt , since Truth it self has said it . Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar ' s ; and unto God , the things that are God's . But that they are only so severable , as never to become Inconsistent , is founded upon the same Immovable Rock ; Let every Soul be subject , &c. A Precept , of a Perpetual , and Universal Operation , and Limited neither to Time , Place , not Persons . N. C. Your Deduction of Government , and Subjection , from Divine Institution , is well enough ; and that we are to Obey the Magistrate for God's sake , and in Subordination to God , is easily Prov'd , and Granted : But I hear nothing yet of the Particular Bounds , and Terms of Humane Iurisdiction ; What 't is belongs to God , and what to Caesar. C. And That , I confess , is the Pinch of the Question : For One Duty comes up so close to the Other , that 't is not for every Common Eye to pass between them . Effectually , they Touch ; but in what Point , is of a Nice Decision . The nearest way to the Knowledge of our Duty , is to apply it to the Laws , and Powers of the Authority : for a Man must first Know the Rule , before he can Observe it . We are then to consider , that the Almighty Wisdom has invested Kings with an Unlimimited Power of Commanding , or Forbidding , in all Matters , which God Himself has not either Commanded , or Forbidden : Which Proposition resolves it self into This Conclusion . Whatsoever God has left Indifferent , is the Subject of Humane Power . N. C. Does not that Opinion destroy Christian Liberty ? C. No : But the Denial of it destroys Magistracy . If Kings have not This Power , they have None at all : And it Implies a Contradiction , to suppose any Authority in Nature without it . N. C. But may not a Prince tye himself up , in a thing otherwise Indifferent ? C. I speak of Power according to the Institution , not of Power limited by P●…ction . N. C. May not the same thing be Indifferent to One , and not to Another ? C. Very Good : And will not every thing Imaginable . appear Non-Indifferent to some or other ; if nothing may be Commanded , but what upon such a Phansie may be Disobey'd ? N. C. Pardon me : I do not speak of Matters of Civil Concern , but of Matters of Religion . C. That 's all a Case ; for you cannot Instance in any One Civil Action , that may not be made Relative to Religion . But we are now upon the Extent of Humane Power . That there is such a Power , and That , Authoriz'd too by God Himself , you have already Granted . Let me but understand now , Upon what Subject shall that Power be Exercis'd ; If you exclude Things Indifferent ? One Man may have a Real Scruple , and All the Rest , pretend one . Who shall distinguish ? So that the Rule holding from One to All , the Sacred Authority of the Prince becomes dependent upon the Pleasure of the Subject ; and the Validity of a Divine , and Unchangeable Ordinance , is subjected to the mutable Iudgment , and Construction of the People . N. C. And you expect , the Magistrate should as well have the Authority of Iudging what 's Indifferent , as of Restreining it . C. You may be sure I do ; for I am but where I was , If I make You the Judge . Is it not all one , as to the Magistrate , whether you Refuse , upon Pretense that the Thing is not Indifferent , or upon Pretense , that He cannot Restrein a thing Indifferent ? The Crime indeed is differing in the Subject : for the One way , 't is an USURPATION of Authority ; and the Other way , 't is a DENIAL of it . N. C. Why then it seems , I am to believe every thing Indifferent , which the Magistrate tells me is so , be it never so Wicked . C. No ; There you are bound up , by a Superiour Law. N. C. Have you so soon forgot your self ? You would not allow me to be a Iudge , just now ; and here , you make me one . C. Right . To your self , you are one , but not to the Publique ; you are a Judge of your own Thought , but not of the Law. N. C. And does not This way of Arguing as much endanger Authority , as the Other ? For All may Iudge Thus , as well as One. C. 'T is possible they may . Nay we 'l suppose an Imposition foul enough to move them all to do so ; and yet there 's a large difference : For Diversity of Iudgment does not shake the Foundation of Authority ; and a Man may disobey a Sinful Command , with great Reverence to the Power that Imposes it . N C. You were saying e'en now , that my Duty to God , and to the King , could never be Inconsistent . How shall I behave my self , I pray'e , if the King command one thing , and God another ? I cannot observe the Law , without violence to my Conscience , nor discharge my Conscience , without Offence to the Law. What Course shall I take , to avoid Enterfering ? C. Demea●… your self as a Christian , toward the LAW of God , one the One hand , and as a Subject , toward the ORDINANCE of God , on the Other : As considering , that you are discharg'd of your Obedience in That Particular , but not of your Subjection in the General . N. C. Put Case the Supreme Magistrate , should by a Law , Establish a False Worship . C. He 's nevertheless your Prince , and even in This Complication , you may acquit your self both to God , and to Caesar. Though the Worship be amiss , The Magistrate is yet to be Reverenc'd ; and you are to divide the One from the Other ; in such manner , as still both to Fear God , and Honour the King. This Loyal , and Religious Separation of our Duties , will set us right in the Main Controversie . Where do ye find that Kings Reign , upon Condition of Ruling Righteously ? Or that we owe them Less , AFTER Misgovernment , then we did Before ? N. C. But do you say , we are bound to Honour an Idolatrous Prince ? This is not according to the Doctrine of many of our Grave Divines . C. They are never the Better Divines for That Doctrine . The Prince , I tell ye , you are bound to Honour , though not as an Idolater . Shall the Vice , or Errour of the Person , degrade the Order ? By That Rule , The World must continue without a Government , till we can find Men without Failings . N. C. So that , when it makes for your Turn , you can Allow ( I see ) of Distinguishing betwixt the PERSON , and the OFFICE . C. Betwixt the Frailty of the One , and the Sacredness of the Other , I do : for Kings Command , as Gods , though they Iudge , as Men. But I do no more approve of Dividing the Person of a Prince , from his Authority , then of Dividing his Soul from his Body . N. C. And I beseech you , What is That , which you call AUTHORITY ? C. It is the Will , and Power of a Multitude , deliver'd up by Common Consent , to some One Person , or More , for the Good , and Safety of the Whole : And This Representative Acts for All. Now on the other side , The Disposition of such , or such a Number of Persons , into an Order of Commanding , and Obeying , is That which we call a Society . N. C. What is the Duty of the Supreme Magistrate ? C. To procure the Welfare of the People ; Or , according to the Apostle , He is the Minister of God , for a Comfort to those that do Well , and for a Terrour to Evil doers . N. C. How far are his Laws Binding upon his Subjects ? C. So far , as They that Parted with their Power , had a Right over Themselves . N. C. Whence was the Original of Power ? And what Form of Government was First ; Regal , or Popular ? C. Power was Ordein'd of God , but Specifi'd by Man : And beyond doubt , the First Form of Government was Monarchique . N. C. But I should rather think the Popular Form was First : For how could there be a King , without a People ? C : So was the Son before the Father , you may say , for How could there be a Father without a Son ? But the Q●…estion is ; First : Was the World ever without a Government , since the Creation of M●…n ? Secondly ; Whether was there first in the World , One Man , or More ? But we are not here upon the Form of Government , but upon the Latitude of Humane Iurisdiction ; be the Sovereignty where it will. And my Assertion is , that It extends to whatsoever God has left Indifferent . If you deny This , you overthrow all Government . N. C , And what are you the better , If I should grant it ; unless we could All come to an Agreement , about what is Indifferent , and what not ? C. Which must be procured by the Allowance of some Iudicial Authority to dec●…de it . SECT . XXII . No End of Controversie , without a FINAL and UNACCOMPTABLE JUDGE , from whose Sentence there shall be no Appeal . C. WHen Subjects come once to Dispute Laws , The War is already Declar'd against the Government . For it is not the Equity or Iniquity of the MATTER of the Law , that is the Question ; but the AUTHORITY of the LAW-MAKER ; under the countenance indeed of somewhat that might be mended in the Law it self . And the Business comes Immediately to This Issue ; Whether the King , or the People , shall Determine , in what concerns the Good of the Community ? That is to say ; Whether the Government shall Stand , or Fall ? Whether or no we shall submit our selves quietly to be over-ruled in all Controversies , by a Definitive Sentence of Law ; ( according to the End , and Intention of Government , in its first Institution ) Or otherwise , by receding from that Common , Peaceable , and Impartial Arbitrator of all our Differences ; from our Faith given ; our Oaths , and Contracts : throw our selves back again into a State of Nature , and Dissolution ; and for want of a Moderator , leave all our Disagreements to be decided by the Sword ? ( The certain Event of all Popular Appeals , from Laws , to Multitudes ) This was tbe Ruine of us , in our Late Confusions . The Faction , you saw , could do nothing , upon the Suggestions of Right , or Wrong ; Convenience , or Inconvenience ; till they came to make Themselves the Iudges of it : And no sooner were they Possest of That Pretension , but all went presently head-long to Destruction . From Questioning the Legal Power of the King , they proceeded to the Exercise of an Arbitrary Power , Themselves : From Asserting the Subjects Liberties , to the Invading of them : And from the Reformation of Abuses , to the Extirpation of the Government . The Two Houses led the Dance , and outed the King ; The Commons did as much for the Lords ; and the People , as much for the Commons : Which comes to no more , then what was reasonably to be expected , upon turning the Course of Publick Affairs into a wrong Channel ; and subjecting the Indisputable Rights of Sovereign Authority , to the Censures , and Expostulations of the Rabble . N. C. What are those Indisputable Rights , I beseech ye ? C. I reckon ( among others ) The Power of Making Laws ; and likewise of Enforcing the Execution of them ; without admitting any sort of Demur , or Contradiction : for let the People break in once upon any One Law , and they will hardly quit their hold , till they have worm'd out , or unsettled all the Rest. In short ; I do esteem it a matter of Absolute Necessity , to the Peace , and the very Beeing of all Government , to have some Unaccomptable Iudge ; some Unquestionable Expedient of Law , or Authority , for the Ending of Controversies : The Determination to be Final , and Decisive : No Appealing from it , and no contending beyond it . N. C. What not in Case of Errour ? I could be well enough content with a Iudge ; and with Indispu●…able Laws , if you could but assure me of Infallible Law-Makers . But I should be sorry to see a Roman-Infallibility set up in England . C. So that rather then a Fallible Iudge , you will have None at all . You could be content with a Iudge , you say ; but then That Iudge must be Questionable , in Case of Errour ; so that Another Iudge is to Judge Him ; and the very Iudge of This Iudge , is Himself Questionable ; and so is his Iudge , and his Iudges Iudge ; ( in Infinitum ) in Case of Errour : Which Case of Errour may be Alledg'd , wheresoever there is no Infallibility ; and if there be no Infallibility in Nature , then by your Rule , there can be no Iudge in Nature . N. C. I do not say but a Man may Iudge Certainly in some Cases , though not Infallibly in All : and all I ask , is only a Free Exercise of my Iudgment at Discretion , without being ty'd up to an Implicit Resignation . There is but a Right , and a Wrong ; and the One I must Embrace , and Reject the Other . How shall I know This from That , without Enquiry ? And what am I the better for That Enquiry , if when I have Learn'd my Duty , I am debarr'd the Liberty to Practise it ? C. You turn the Question , from the Necessity of a Judg , to his Infallibility . 'T is all one to me , whether you make him Infallible , or Credible , or what you make him , or where you place him ; provided that he be Acknowledg'd Necessary , and Unac●…omptable . That He is Necessary , I presume you will easily afford me : for there can be no Peace without him , every Man being at Liberty to Wrangle , where no Man is Authoris'd to take up the Strife . But would you have him Unaccomptable , or no ? N. C. What greater Encouragement is there in the World , to Tyranny , then the Opinion of an Unaccomptable Sovereignty ? C. What is it rather ( you should have said ) that Excites Sedition , and Depopulates Kingdoms , so much as the Contrary ? And doubtless , the Fiercest Tyranny is much more supportable , then the Mildest Rebellion . N. C. Truly , as to the Convenience of a Definitive Sentence . I should be glad to see it ; without the Hazzard of a D●…finitive Injustice . C. You mistake your self , if you oppose a Possible Injury on the One side , to a Certain Wrangle ; and Confusion on the Other . If Infallibility you cannot find , why may not the fairest Probability content you ? N. C. But would you have that Probability govern by Unquestionable , and Authoritative Conclusions ? C. By any means ; you do nothing else : For where Controversies are Inevitable , and Concord ( if it may be had ) Necessary ; What can be more Reasonable , then to chuse the most Competent Iudge of the Matter in Controversie , for the Concluding Umpire of the Controversie it self ? N. C. But a Man may Iudge Probably in One Case , and Improbably in Another : Suppose the Determination to be manifest Errour , or Injustice ; would you have the same Submission paid to it , as if it were Equity , and Truth ? C. Yes : To the Determination , though not to the Errour : You are to stand to the Authority of the Sentence , without Contesting the Equity of it : for Right , or Wrong , 't is a Decision . The Principal Scope , and sure End of a Reference , is Peace : The Hopeful Event , and Issue of it , is Righteous Iudgment . Is it not well then , to be sure of the One , and in so fair a Likelihood of the Other ? Put it to the worst ; You are not bound to be of the Iudge his Opinion , but to be over-rul'd by his Authority : Neither do you undertake that he shall Judge Critically , as to the Subject of the Question ; but that he shall Judge Effectually , as to the purpose of the Reference . N. C. This Resignation may do well , in Cases of ●…ivil Interest : but it will hardly hold in Matters of Conscience . Who shall pretend to Iudge of my Conscience , beside God , and my Self ? C. The Scripture , which is the Rule of all Consciences , shall be the Iudge of Yours . But the Question is not , What the Conscience Is , but what it Ought to be : Not what your Private Iudgment says , but what the Scripture means ; and the Thing I strive for , is a Judge of That : A Iudge of the Rule of Faith ; which I take to be all out as necessary , as a Iudge of a Political Law. You cannot but allow , that there are Diversities of Opinions , as well in Religion , as concerning Secular Affairs : And such is our Corruption , that we draw Poyson , even from the Fountain of Life ; and the Word of God it self , is made the Warrant of all Crimes , and the Foundation of all Heresies . Look behind ye , and you may see a Prince Murther'd by his Subjects : Authority Beheaded by a Pretended Law , and all this Defended by a Text. The Church Devour'd by a Divided Ministry ; The Government overturn'd by a Solemn League and Covenant to support it : An Arbitrary Power Introduc'd by the Patrons of Liberty : The Lord's Prayer Cashier'd , to make way for the Motions of the Holy Ghost ; and Charity it self Extinguish'd for the Advancement of the Gospel . We have liv'd to see as many Heresies , as Congregations ; and a Consistorian Scrutiny , prest beyond the Rigour of a Spanish Inquisition . We have seen some that a abhor Idols , committing Sacrilege : Christ's Kingdom cry'd up , till his b Divinity is Deny'd . Strictness of Life Inculcated , till the very Rule of it c ( The Decalogue it self ) is Rejected : And Blasphemy hunted out of the Tavern , into the Pulpit . In fine ; What Sin , and Misery have we not known , and felt , since under the Form of Liberty of Conscience , This Freedom of a Private Spirit came in vogue ? Nor are we ever to expect better from it , till all Men shall conspire to do the same thing , where every Man is left to his Own Gust , to do what he pleases . And whence flows all this Mischief , and Confusion , but from a License of Wandring from the Rule ? Methinks These Practises should put you , and your Cause out of Countenance . N. C. I am no Advocate for Anarchy , though no Friend to Uniformity : And I know 't is with Non Conformists , as with other People there are Good and Bad of All sorts . But to go with the Moderate : Would you have all Mens Consciences Gobern'd by the same Rule ? ; C. Better Particulars suffer for Incompliance with the Publique , then the Publique suffer for Complying with Particulars . Uniformity is the Ciment of both Christian , and Civil Societies : Take That away , and the Parts drop from the Body ; One Piece falls from Another . The Magistrate ( for Orders sake ) requires Uniformity ; You , and your Associates oppose it , upon a Plea of Conscience . The Question is ; Whether He shall Over-rule your Opinions , or You Over-rule His Authority ? This Dispute begets a War , for want of a Iudge ; and to prevent that Consequence , I offer that a Iudge is Necessary . Or put it Thus : You , and I differ ; and possibly we are Both in the Wrong ; but most certainly we are not Both in the Right ; and yet neither of us but thinks well enough of his own Opinion . What 's to be done in This Case ? Shall we Wrangle Eternally ? N. C. No , We 'l rather put the Matter to Arbitration . C. Well ; but the Arbiter himself is Fallible ; and may mistake too : Or let him have the Wisdom of an Angel , he cannot please us Both : For That which seems Right to the One , will appear Wrong to the Other . Shall we stand to his Award whatever it be ? If not , take into your Thought these Consequences . You refuse to submit , because it is Wrong ; and I may refuse , by the same Reason , though it be Right : ( For , Every Man's Reason is of equal Force , where there is no Common , and Representative Reason to Bind All. ) So that by your Reckoning , Every Man is in the Right to Himself , and in the Wrong to all the World besides : ( for I perswade my self , that Nature never produc'd Two Persons , in all Points , of the same Judgment . ) Now , if you can neither deny Confusion to be the Natural Effect of this Liberty of Iudgment ; nor the want of a Regulating , and Decretory Sentence , to be the Cause of This Confusion , I hope you 'l grant me the Necessity of an Unaccomptable Iudge . N. C. Is not the Word of God a sufficient Iudge ? C. No : That 's no Iudge , but [ a Rule for Christians to Iudge BY ] and the great Danger lies upon the Meaning of That Rule . Witness those Swarms of Heresies , that have over-spread this Land , since the Bible has been deliver'd up to the Interpretation of Private Spirits . N. C. You say well , if you could direct me to a Iudge that we might all rely upon . C. And you say something too , if you could make appear , that None at all is better then the Best we have : Or that Popular Errours , Numberless , and Inevitable , ( with the Dissolution of Societies to boot ) are to be preferr'd to the Few , and only Possible Failings of Authority , attended however with Peace , and Agreement . The Question , Briefly , is This. Whether will you rather have ; One Fallible Iudge , or a Million of Damnable Heresies ? N. C. Truly , as you have reduc'd it , to a Certainty of Peace the One way , and to as great a Certainty of Discord , the Other ; to a Certainty of Many Errours , without a Iudg , and to a bare Possibility of some few , with One : I think a Final Iudge may be Convenient , if not Necessary . C. If you find it so in the Church , sure you will not Dispute it in the State ; especially against an Experience too , the most forcible of all Reasons . We were never troubled with Constructive Necessities ; with Cavils about the Receptacle of Power , and the Limits of Obedience : With Distinctions betwixt the Political , and the Natural Right of the People ; The Legal , and the Personal Will of the Prince ; and betwixt the Equity , and the Letter of the Law : till Judgment was forc'd from its proper Course , and the Decision of Political Controversies , committed to the Frivolous , and Tumultuary Arbitrations of the People . N. C. Nay , I am as much for a Iudge , as You ; but not for One Iudge to All Purposes : Nor indeed , for any Iudge so Absolute as you would have him . C. I tell ye again , A Iudge , and no Absolute Iudge , is No Judge : and you shall as soon find the End of a Circle , as of a Controversie , by such a Iudge . Nor is it yet my Intention , that One Iudge should serve for All Purposes . N. C. Divide your Matter then , and assign to every Iudicable Point its Proper Iudge . C. You have Reason ; for truly I do not take the Magistrate to be any more a Iudge of My Conscience , then I am of His. N. C. No doubt of it ; And it were an Encroachment upon the Prerogative of God Himself , for the Magistrate to Challenge it . C. How comes it now , that we , that accord so well in the End , should differ so much in the Way to 't ? But I hope the Clearing of the next Point will set all Right : for after the Acknowledgment of the General Necessity of a Iudge , we have nothing further to do , but to agree upon the Iudge , and so submit . SECT . XXIII . The Three Great Judges of Mankind , are GOD , MAGISTRATES , and CONSCIENCE . SOme Things we do as Men ; Other Things , as Men in Society ; and Some again , as Christians . In the first place , We are acted by the Law of Individuals ; Which Law , in the Second place , is Subjected to That of Government ; And Both these Laws are , in the Third place , Subordinate to That of Religion ; i. e. The Law of God's Revealed Will. So that the Three Great Iudges of Mankind are , GOD , MAGISTRATES , and CONSCIENCE . Man as Consisting of Soul , and Body , may be again Subdivided within Himself . Take Him in his Lower Capacity , and He is sway'd by the General Law of Animal Nature , But in his Divine part , you will find Him Govern'd by the Nobler Law of Refined Reason ; which Reason , in some Cases , we call Prudence , and in others , Conscience , according as it is Variously Exercised . The Things which we do purely as MEN , ( Abstracted from any Ingredients of Policy , or Regulated Religion ) are either Natural Actions , Prudential , or Moral . Of the first sort , are Those Actions to which we are prompted by a Natural Impulse , in order to the Conservation of Life , and Being . Of the third sort , are such Actions as we perform in Obedience to Moral Principles . ( Which are no other , then the Divine Will , as it is couched under the Dictate of Humane Reason ) And Betwixt These Two , lies the Region of Middle Actions : That is , of Such Actions , as although not of simple , and strict Necessity , either to Life , or Virtue , are notwithstanding Useful , and Commodious , for the Guidance , and Comfort of the One , and for the Practice of the Other . The accurate Disquisition of This Interest clears the Main Difficulty of the Question ; for Nothing has embroyl'd us more , then the Mistaken Rights , and Privileges of Individuals : Which Mistakes being once made manifest , by laying open the Subordination of several Claims , and Powers , every Man may take a distinct View of his own Province . N. C. If you will proceed Regularly , you are to State these Subordinations as you go . C. Agreed ; and we are now upon the Right of Individuals : In which naked Simplicity of Considering Man , without any Regard to the Ordinary Motions of Providence , in the Order , and Regiment of the World , We shall yet find a Natural Subordination within Himself , and the Law of Sense , under the Dominion of the Law of Reason , in the same Subj●…ct . These are the Laws which the Apostle calls the Law of his MEMBERS , and the Law of his WILL. The Former Law ( and the less Excellent ) is the Law Sensitive ; which is no other , then the Law of Self-Preservation . ( The Supreme Law of Animal Beings , as it is of Rationals the Lowest ) This Law Sensitive , is no other than the Manifestation of God in the Creature : for what Sense does , Nature does ; and what Nature does , God does . N. C. But what is That Power all this while , which you call NATURE ? C. It is the Ordinary Working of God in all his Creatures ; by Virtue of which Divine Impression , and Influence , Every thing is moved to seek the Utmost Perfection whereof it is Capable . As for the Purpose ; The Perfection of MAN is the Congruity of his Actions with his Reason ; which is Nothing else , but That which we call VIRTUE . The Perfection of BEASTS lies a degree lower : For they are only mov'd by a Sensual Impulse , towards what is Convenient for them ; and when they have it , They Rest. N. C. When People are gravell'd , they fly to their Impulses , and Occu●…t Qualities . Where lies the Difference ; I beseech you , between Their Impulse , and Our Choice ? C. Their Impulse carries them on through a Sensitive Search , not any D●…liberative Discourse ; And there is no E●…ection neither at last : But only the Simple Prosecution of a Determinate Appetite , without imagining any Proportion betwixt the Means , and the End. N. C. But still we find , that there is a Proportion : and the Motion appears to us according to the Method of Reason : And a very Orderly Proceeding from a Question , to a Resolution . C. Is it Reason , think ye , that makes a Dog follow his Nose , and Hunt for Meat , when he is Hungry ? Or will you call it Choice , if he leaves a Turfe for a Bone ? Now if you ask how This comes about : He is guided by Instinct toward the End ; and Sense carries him thorough the Means . N. C. But why should the same Process of Means , and the same Application of Causes , be ascribed only to Instinct , in Brutes , and to Reason , in Man ? C. You are to take notice , that all Natur●…l Operations are Regular , and Ordinate , by what Means soever performed : But it does not follow , because the Method is according to Reason , that therefore the Instrument must be Reasonable . But to mind what we are upon . The Law of Self-Preservation , is a Law common to Beasts with Men ; but not of Equal Force , and Obligation : for Their Sovereign Interest is Life ; Ours is Virtue : And therefore your late Argument for Defensive Arms , under Pretense of that Extremity , was but a Brutish Plea : For if the Consideration of Virtue be not above That of Life , Where lies the Advantage of Our Reason ? N. C. But when the Death is certain , and the Virtue doubtful , Who shall decide the Point ? C. In a Case abstracted from the Ties , and Duties of Religion , and Government , every Man's Reason sits as Iudge upon his own Life . As for Instance ; You are in the Hands of Thieves , and only This Choice offer'd you , either to take a False Oath , or to lose your Life . Your Conscience tells you , that you must rather Perish , then Forswear your self : But if you can preserve your self , without Violence to a Superiour Duty , you are your own Murderer if you do not . Thus far I think we are safe , and I suppose agreed , that every Individual is to Govern himself by his Natural Conscience . But when the several Particulars come to be bundled up in One Community , the Case is otherwise . N. C. I am sorry to hear you say That . Why should not every Man be Govern'd by his own Conscience , as well in Consort , as in Solitude , as well in Company , as by Himself ? Or will you have it , that our Duty to God ceases in the Act of becoming Subjects to a Civil Power ? C. As to your Conscience , you are as free now , as you were before : But your Body is no longer your Own , after you are once enrolled a Member of a Society . And here 's the Difference ; You were your own Servant before , and now you are the King 's . ( For what is Government , but the Wisedom , Resolve , and Force of every Particular , gather'd into One Under standing , Will , and Body ? ) And This comes up to what I have already Deliverd , that , Whatsoever God has left INDIFFERENT , is the Subject of HUMANE POWER . N. C. But who shall be Iudge of what 's Indifferent ? C. Let That be Examined the very next Thing we do . You are already satisfied , that an Auth●…rized Iudge is absolutely Necessary , in Order to the Pe●…ce of Church , and State , and to the Ending of all Publique Differences : But we are not yet resolv'd about Our Iudges ; Or if we were , yet in Regard they are but Men , and so may Erre , [ Infallibility being departed with Christ and his Apostles ; in lieu of which Living , and Infallible Guides , God has in Providence given us a Plain , and Infallible Rule ] We are now to make Enquiry , how far a Private Judge may be allow'd to Oppose , or Differ from a Publique , in Case of a Reluctant Conscience , and in some sort to Iudge his Iudge ? N. C. You say very well ; For place the Ultimate Decision where you will , It is ( as you said before ) an Infallible Determination as to the Strife ; but Not so , as to the Truth ; and comes at last to This , that every Man ( in some Degree ) re-judges his Iudge . If I be fully convinc't , either , that the Command is Sinful in it self , or the Opinion Wicked ; I am neither to Obey the One , nor to Embrace the Other ; as being tied up by a General Obligation of rather Obeying , and Believing God , then Man. Nay more ; If in Obedience to the Magistrate , I commit a Sin against God , and do it ignorantly too , That very Act in Ignorance is Crimin●…l : ( If I had the Means of being better inform'd : ) For No Humane Respect c●…n justifie an Offence against God. Now if I am bound to do Nothing that is Ill ; I am likewise bound , before I do any thing , to satisfie my self , whether it be Ill , or No : For otherwise , I may follow a False Religion for a True , and be Damned in the End , for not minding what I did . This do I take for Proof sufficient , that No Man is so Implicitely Obliged to rely upon other Mens Eyes , as totally to Abandon the Direction of his own ; Or so unconditionally to swear Obedience to other Mens Laws , and Perswasions , as to hold no Intelligence at all with that Sacred Law , and Faithful Counsell●…r which he carries in his own B●…som . C. I am so far from advising you to reneunce your Reason , that , on the contrary , I would have you absolutely guided , and concluded by it ; and only to Obey for Quiet sake , so far as you can possibly Obey in Conscience . N. C. What if a Single Person hit that Truth , which a General Council misses ? Which will you have him follow ; Truth , or Authority ? C. I would have him follow Truth with his Soul , and Authority with his Body . But it is not for so remote a Possibility as This is , to bring the Fansies and Imaginations of a Private Spirit into a Competition with Resolutions of Law , And yet for the Possibility sake , We 'l take the very Supposition likewise into Consideration , and Word the whole Matter as plainly as we can . The Church says , Ye may Do ; And the Law says , You must Do , That which your Conscience says , You ought not to Do. How will you reconcile your Duty , and your Conscience , in This Case ? N. C. Uery well : For I think it my Duty to Obey my Conscience , upon This Principle , That Conscience is God's Substitute over Individuals . C. Keep to That , and Answer me once again ; Is not the Civil Magistrate God's Substitute too ? If He be , How comes your Conscience to take place of his Authority ? They are Both Commission'd alike , and consequently , Both to be Obey'd alike : Which is Impossible , where their Commands are Inconsistent . N. C. The Magistrate is a Publique Minister , and his Commission does not reach to Particular Consciences . C. And on the Other side , You are a Private Person , and there is as little Reason for your Opinion to Operate upon a Publique Law. So that if I mistake you not , we are upon accord thus far ; That every Particular is to look to One , and the King to the Whole . Now if you would deal as Candidly with me , about the Ecclesiastical Power , as you have done in the Civil , we might make short work of This Question . I hope you will not deny that the Church is as well a Authorized to TEACH , and INSTRUCT in all the External Acts of Worship , as b the Magistrate is to COMPEL to Those External Acts. N. C. There is no Doubt , c The Church ( as the Church ) has a Ministerial Power ( Ex Officio ) to Define Controversies , according to the Word of God ; And that d A Syn●…d Lawfully Conven'd , is a Limited , Ministerial , and Bounded Visible Iudge , and to be believed in , so far as they fellow Christ , the Peremptory and Supreme Iudge , speaking in his own Word . C. This will not do our Business yet ; for to say , that a Synod is to be believed in , SO FAR as it follows Christ , seems to make Those the Iudges of That Act , that are to be Concluded by it ; and leaves the Credit of the Authority , dependent upon the Conscience , Fancy , or Humour of the Believer . For 't is but any Man's saying , that the Synod does not follow Christ , and that he trusts in it so far as it does follow Him. And this is enough to keep the Controversie afoot , without any hope of Decision . N. C. We are indeed to believe Truths determined by Synods , to be Infallible , and never again liable to Retraction , or Discussion ; Not because [ so says the Synod , ] but because [ so says the Lord. ] C. Still you are short ; for 't is not in Our Power to dis●…elieve what we acknowledge to be a Truth : But That which is Truth at the Fountain , may be Corrupted in the Passage ; Or at least appear so to Me , and What then ? N. C. It must be look't upon as an Errour of the Conscience ; which is no Discharge at all of your Obedience : From which Errour you are to be reclaimed , either by Instruction , or Censure . For the People are obliged to Obey Those that are OVER THEM IN THE LORD , who Watch for their Souls , as those who must give an Accompt ; ] And not oblig'd to stand to , and obey the Ministerial and Official Iudgment of THE PEOPLE . He that Heareth YOU ( MINISTERS of the GOSPEL , not the PEOPLE ) Heareth ME ; And He that Despiseth YOU , Despiseth ME. C. Why should not We Two shake Hands now , and Join in the Act for Uniformity ? You cannot say , that it wants any thing of the full Complement of a Binding Law ; Either in regard of the Civil , or of the Ecclesiastical Authority . Here is first , the Iudgment of the Church duely conven'd , touching the Meetness , and Conveniency of the Rites , and Forms therein Conteined . You have next , the Royal Sanction , Approving , and Authorizing Those Rites , and Forms ; and Requiring your Exact Obedience to them . Now so it is , that you can neither Decline the Authority of your Iudges , nor the Acknowledgment of your Duties ; What is it then that hinders your Obedience ? N. C. That which to Me is more then all the World , It goes against my Conscience . C. Only That Point then , and we have done with This Subject . We have already concluded , that God is the Iudge of the World ; That the Church is the Iudge of what properly concerns Religion ; That the Civil Magistrate is Iudge of what belongs to Publique Order , and Peace ; and That every Man's Conscience is the Iudge of what concerns his own Soul. The Remaining Difficulty is This ; How I am to behave my self in a Case , where the Law bids me do One Thing , and my Conscience , Another . To take a True Estimate of This Matter , We are first to Ballance the Two Interests , that meet in Competition ; The One , for the Law , and the Other , against it . There is , in Favour , and for the EXECUTION of the Law ( meaning That of Uniformity ) 1. The Personal Conscience , and 2. The Political Conscience of the King. There is moreover , for the EQUITY of it , the Solemn and Deliberate Iudgment of the Church ; which is , effectually , the Publique Conscience ; and lastly , for the OBSERVANCE of it , There is the Duty of the Subject , which , if it be withdrawn , does not only Invalidate This Particular Act , but it loosens the Sinews of Sovereign Authority ; and which is more , it destroys even a Divine Ordinance ; For take away Obedience , and Government lapses into Confusion . Now for the Counterpoise ; AGAINST This Law , and Thus Supported , appears your Naked Conscience . Nay , That 's the Fairest on 't ; It may be worse , and in Truth , any thing that 's Ill , under That Name . N. C. But what 's the World to Me , in the Scale against my Soul ? C. You have great Reason sure , and 't is no more then every Man may challenge : That is , to Stand , or Fall , to his own Conscience : Is that your Principle ? N. C. Yes , out of Doubt ; 't is Mine , and Yours , and any Man's that's Honest. C. Well ; Hold ye a little ▪ Your Conscience will not down with This Law ; and This Law will as little down with your Conscience . Weigh now the Good against the Bad ; What if it stands ? What if it yields ? Make the Case worse then it is ; as Bad as Bad may be , in your own Favour . You cannot comply with the Law ; And the Law will not stoop to You. What follows upon it ? N. C. The Ruine of many Godly People , that desire to Worship God , according to his Word . C. That Plea wrought little upon You from Us ; but let that pass . What sort of Ruine do you mean ? Ruine of Liberty , or Estate ? ( For this Law draws no Blood ) State your Misfortunes , I beseech ye . N. C. No Man must Hold a Benefice , or Teach a School , but upon Terms of such Subscription , or Acknowledgment , as many an honest Man would rather Die then Consent to : So that We are Distrest , not only for Our Selves , as being deprived of the Comfort of all Spiritual , and Heavenly Freedoms ; But Our poor Infants are exposed to be Undone , wanting the Means of a Religious Education . C. If This be All , never Trouble your selves ; for many an honest Man has out-liv'd more then this comes to . In short ; There 's a huge Clamour ; but ( God knows ) with little Reason . Some Particulars will possibly suffer for want of a Toleration : and who are They ; but the Profest Opposers of the Law ? And on the Other side , All the Friends of the Government will suffer by it . If you would see the Event of Granting what you ask , Turn but your Face toward — 41 , and then Blush , and Repent . Besides ; You 're not aware , that in Contesting with the Law , you Quarrel with your self : THERE' 's YOUR OWN VOTE AGAINST YOU ; and all this Muttering , is no other then your Factious Will , wrangling with your Political Consent . And yet I say , Stick to your Conscience : Let us now put the Case of a Real Distance , betwixt This Act , and your Conscience . How will you divide your Duty ? N. C. I 'le follow your Advice , and stick to my Conscience . C. Now change Hands , and make your self the Supreme Magistrate . He has a Double Conscience ; One that concerns Himself , the Other , his People . What his Majesties Personal Iudgment is , has been Declared Abundantly ; What his Prudential Iudgment may dispose Him to , lies in His Royal Brest . But be That as Heaven shall Order it . Here 's the Partition of your Rights : The King's Prerogative has nothing to do with your Conscience ; and your Conscience has as little to do with His Majesties Prerogative . The King is Accomptable to God for the Welfare of his People ; and You are only Accomptable to God for the Good of your little Particular . If You cannot Obey the Law , Do not : But abide the Penalty . If the Sovereign cannot Relax the Law , He 's as Free to Execute it . Your Conscience requires Liberty , and your Governour 's Conscience requires Order . Now why you should expect , that your Sovereign should bring down His Conscience to Yours , when you find upon Experiment , that you cannot perswade your Own to come up to His , is to me a Mystery . To Conclude , Keep your self , within your Sphere ; and where you cannot Consent , as a Christian , Submit , as a Subject ; that We may at last hope for some Respite from the Calamities of Sedition , and Schism . N. C. And why not Scandal , and Profaneness too ? For the Edge of your Severity might be directed to much better Purpose That way . SECT . XXIV . The Church of England charges the Non-Conformists with SCHISM , and the Non-Conformists charge those of the Church with SCANDAL . The Matter is taken into Debate . N. C. YOur Position is , That no Toleration is to be admitted , to the hazzard of Religion , Good Life , and Government . Keep to That Standard , and you will find that the Conformists have as little Pretense to a Toleration as their Neighbours : and that the Notorious Scandal on the one side , outweighs the Objected Schism on the other . C. This will scarce hold , if you come to be Try'd by your own Laws : which make it a Matter of Scandal , by Writing , Preaching , or otherwise , to publish a Disaffection to the Present Government . But Explain your self . N. C. By Scandal , I mean Habitual Prophaneness , Sensuality , Dissolution of Manners , &c. As by Schism , I suppose you intend our Incompliances with your Church-Discipline . Weigh These Two now , One against the Other , and do you your self hold the Balance . Set up your Tavern-Clubs against our Conventicles Oppose your Combinations against God Himself , to our Plots against the Government . For you must not take it Ill , if I tell ye , that Atheism is become the Sport , and Salt of your most Celebrated Enterteinments . And when you have dash'd the Bible out of Countenance , with the Story of the Three Grand Impostors , or some such Lashing Piece of Drollery , The Questioning of God's Over-ruling Wisdom , by Solemn Arguments , and the Placing of Fortune in the Throne of Providence , is that which commonly Crowns your Conversations . ; C. You should not charge Personal Crimes upon a Party , unless you can prove them to be rationally Consequent to the Tenets , and Actings of That Party . Now if you can shew me any Affinity betwixt our Principles , and These Impieties , you say something : But if you cannot , The Dust of your Argument puts out your own Eyes . I do not wonder , I must confess , to see a Nation Over-run with Atheism , that has been so many Years under your Tuition : or to find the Brat of a Conventicle laid at the Church-Door . N. C. May not We charge Personal Extravagancies upon your Party , as well as You do upon Ours ? C. Yes : If you can prove the same Agreement against Us , betwixt the Faults of the One , and the Principles of the Other , which we are able to justifie against You. The Episcopal Party , you know , stood for the King ; and it is undeniable , that the King , and Church had the same Cause , and Fate . It is as unquestionable on the other side , that the Non-Conformists destroy'd both the One , and the Other : Not by Accident neither , but by a Form'd , and Excogitated Design , wrap'd up , and couch'd in the very Mystery , and Foundation of the Schism : Your Separation from a Communion with the Church , resolving naturally into a Combination against the Entire Frame of the Government ; till in the End , by the help of a Peinful , and Well-effected Ministry , the Generality of the People were Preach'd into This Division , [ i. e. ] Those that could not reach the Cheat , were taught to Scruple at Every Thing ; and Those that went along with it , to make a Conscience of Nothing . And this is it , that has brought us to be so Pester'd with Enthusiasts , and Atheists . N. C. But let me tell ye again , the Atheists are of the Other Party . C. And let me enform you too , that your Proceedings have made Atheists , more ways then One. First : The meer Quality of your Cause has made Atheism the Interest of a great many of your Partakers ; who , to put off the Thought of a Divine Vengeance attending them , if there be a God , Endeavour ( for their own Quiet ) to perswade themselves that there is no God at all . Secondly : The Work has been carried on under the Masque of Holiness ; and the most Desperate Atheist is nothing else but a Crusted Hypocrite . I speak of your Religious Atheist , who has This Odds of the Profane , and Scoffing Wretch , that he abuses God to his Face , and in his own House . The Great Atheists , indeed , are Hypocrites ( says Sir Francis Bacon ) which are ever bandling Holy Things , but without Feeling ; so as they must needs be Cauteriz'd in the End. It is Remarquable ( as I have elsewhere recommended to your Observation ) that in the Holy Scripture there are not so many Woes pronounc'd , nor so many Cautions Inculcated , against any sort of People , as against Hypocrites . You shall there find , that God has given the Grace of Repentance to Persecutors , Idolaters , Murtherers , Adulterers , &c. But I am mistaken if the whole Bible yields any one Instance of a CONVERTED Hypocrite . Thirdly : You have done more in your Practises , toward the Vindication of Atheism , then all that ever went before ye : and he that overlooks our Story , from 1640 , to 1660 , will find matter , not only to stagger a Weak Christian , but to put a Wiseman to a Second Thought , and make him Exclaim with the Prophet ; [ Lo , These are the Ungodly , These Prosper in the World , and These have Riches in Possession . Then have I cleansed my Heart in vain , and washed my Hands in Innocency , To see the same Men , Swearing to day , with their Hands lifted up unto the Lord , in a Holy Covenant , to Defend , and Preserve His Majesties Person : And a while after , with the same Consecrated Lips , blessing that Cursed Vote , that manifestly led to his Destruction . ( The Vote of Non-Addresses ) To see Ministers , like so many Pulpit-Weather-cocks , shifting from Party to Party , till they have run through every Point of the Compass : Swearing , and Counter-Swearing : And when the City was split into more Factions , then Parishes , still to maintein , that the whole Schism was Acted by the Holy Ghost . To find the Pulpit Trading only in dark , and Oraculous Delusions , instead of plain , and saving Truths ; and the Pretended Messengers of Peace , turn'd Agents for Blood : To hear , and see all This , and More , and the Cause prosper too , What could the Invention of Man add more to this Temptation to Apostacy ? Lastly ; Your Necessitated Toleration , ( Necessitated , I say ; for you could never have Crush'd the Government without it ) started so many lewd Opinions , that it was some Degree of Modesty , for fear of a worse choice , e'en to be of No Religion at all : And without Dispute , many People finding it left to Indifferent , of what Religion they were , became Themselves as Indifferent , whether they were of Any , or No. So that the Scandal which you would spitefully fasten upon the Persons of some of our Party , is found to be Radical , and Constitutional , in the very Elements of yours . Neither is it All , that your Imputation is misplaced ; but I am afraid you 'l find your self in Another Mistake . Which of the Two , do you account the more Tolerable ; SCANDAL , or Schism ? N. C. If by SCHISM you mean A Refusal to joyn with That Church , where I cannot Communicate without Sin ; And if by SCANDAL , you intend such Actions as are of evil Example , and minister Occasion to our Neighbour , of Falling : I think 't is easily Determin'd , that the One is not to be suffer'd , and the Other not to be condemn'd . C. I do not speak of This or That sort , or degree of Schism , and Scandal ; but in the just Latitude , both of the One , and the Other . That is to say , ( without more Circumstance ) Which do you take for the more Tolerable Mischief of the Two ? N. C. Truly , betwixt a Perverse Separati●…n , and a Notori●…us Scandal , I think the Choice is hard ; but I rather incline against the Scandal . C. Now , if ye will believe Sir Francis Bacon , Schism is Both ; [ Heresies , and Schisms ( says he ) are of all others , the greatest Scandals ; yea more then Corruption of Manners . ] Consider it , as it stands in Opposition to Unity . ( which is the Bond both of Religion , and Society ) What can be more Scandalous , then that which renders Religion , Ridiculous ? And That 's the Effect of Schism . To see so many Sects , grinning one upon another , and yet All Pretending to the same One , and Infallible Spirit . Beside , that Schism seldome or never goes alone ; and in Truth , it is but Sedition , in a Disguise : For we find , that our Scrupulous Dissenters , can with much Ease , and Unity , Agree in a War , though not in a Ceremony . N. C. And may there not be Conspiracies in Scandal , as well as in Schism ? There , with an Evident Design to bring Contempt upon Religion : Whereas Here , we find at least a Colour , and Pretense to uphold it . Further ; the Sins which I accompt Scandalous , are many of them Lebell'd at the Prerogative of God Himself ; and in short , the Question is not , properly , and simply , betwixt Schism , and Scandal ; but betwixt Schism , and all other Sins whatsoever , that may be Propagated by Conversation , ( for That 's the Latitude of Scandal . ) Again , let me observe from your own Mouth , that Heresies are Scandals : and several Heresies you know , both by the Laws of God , and Man , are Punish'd with Death : He that Blasphemeth the Name of the Lord , shall be put to Death . From whence you may gather some Difference sure , betwixt the Heinousness of the On ; and of the Other . C. You will proceed by a very Uncertain Rule , to measure the Sin by the Punishment : for Political Laws regard rather Publique Conveniences , then Particular Cases of Conscience . A Man shall lose his Life for Picking a Pocket , and but hazzard his Ears for a False Oath . But if you 'l refer the Matter to the Iust , and Infallible Iudge of all the Wo●…ld , to God Himself ; look but into that Dreadful Judgment upon the Schism of Korah . Korah , Dathan , &c. rose against Moses , with Two hun●…red and Fifty Captains of the Assembly , famous in the Congregation , and said unto them , Ye take too much upon You , since all the Congregation is Holy , even every One of them , and the Lord is among them . Wherefore then lift ye your selves above the Congregation of the Lord ? [ And what follow'd ? ] The Earth open'd her Mouth , and swallow'd them up with their Families , and all the Men that were with Korah , &c. A Fire came out from the Lord , and Consumed the Two Hundred ●…nd Fifty Men that Offer'd the Incense . This set the Multitude a muttering against Moses , and Aaron ; saying , Ye have killed the People of the Lord. See now , what came of This Muttering too : Fourteen Thousand Seven Hundred of them were consumed by a Plague . You have here , not only a Dreadful Instance of God's Wrath against Schism ; but against a Schism also , carry'd on , in the Stile of Our present Non-Conformists : Two Hundred and Fifty Captains of the Assembly , Famous in the Congregation ; Which Our English Translation renders , An Intelligent , Sober sort of Men , Numerous among all Ranks , &c. These rose against Moses , and Aaron , and said unto Them , Ye take too much upon You. The Congregation is Holy , and the Lord is among Them. Wherefore do ye lift your selves above the Congregation of the Lord ? What is This , but the Language of Our Age , the common Objection against the Bishops , for Lording it over God's Heritage . The Consequences I leave before you . N. C. Give me leave now to pass an Observation upon your whole Discourse . You seem to have been very Punctual , and Methodical in the Distribution of the Parts of it . A Toleration , or No Toleration , was the Question . An Universal Toleration you found too Wide ; A Limited Toleration too Narrow ; and yet after all This , your Opinion was , that a Toleration under such and such Modifications , and Restrictions might be admitted : Upon which Terms , I was content to come to an Issue with You. Now , since This Lender of a Compliance , You have not proceeded , Methinks , with that Candour which I expected from You. But the Main Stress of your Argument lies against the Whole Party of the Non-Conformists ; And ( in effect ) against any Toleration at all : with little or no Regard to those Accommodable Points , that might have brought the Matter in Difference to some sort of Composure . C. It is very True , That I am utterly against Tolerating the Whole Party , as a Thing of Certain Inconvenience , to Religion , and Government ; and to the Ruine , no less of your selves , then of the Publique . Will Presbytery ever satisfie , the Independents Conscience ? Or will Liberty any better suit with the Presbyterians ? And yet you could both of you joyn with the Directory , against the Common Prayer ; with the Authority of the Pretended Assembly , against That of the Church ; wherein you have given Proof to the World , that you were not United upon any Consideration of Conscience , but with a Design upon a Common Booty . Ye overturn'd the Government , Divided the Spoil , Enrich't your selves , Embroiled every thing , and Settled Nothing . And yet in those Days there was no Act of Uniformity to hinder you . This is enough to make Evident , that the Non-Conformists are Intolerable , in Conjunction : But if you think fit to make a Tryal , how far any sort of them may agree with our Standard of Toleration , Apart , Plead you the Cause of the Presbyterians , and let your Brother Independent here , ( that has been a Witness to our whole Debate ) take up the Cudgels for his own Party ; Not forgetting , that In the Question of TOLERATION , the Foundation of FAITH , GOOD LIFE , and GOVERNMENT is to be Secur'd . N. C. According to what Latitude are we to understand that which you call the Foundation of FAITH ? C. According to the Latitude of the APOSTLES CREED ; wherein are conteined All the Articles of Simple Faith , which are Necessary to be Explicitly Believed . ] And whatsoever was found by Them , to be Necessary , and Sufficient to Salvation , continues so still , and ought to be so Received , and Acknowledged by Us : without insisting upon Deductions , and Consequences , as Points of Prime , and Fundamental Necessity ; though Occasionally , and Obliquely , they become Necessary too . This is the Word of Faith which we Preach , that if thou shalt Confess with thy Mouth the Lord Iesus , and shalt believe in thy Heart , that God hath raised him from the Dead , thou shalt be saved . Here 's the Foundation of FAITH : And in That of GOOD LIFE , respect is to be had to Morality , that nothing be Tolerated to the Encouragement of Loosness , Sensuality , and Dissolution of Manners . As there is an Absolute Necessity of Providing against Doctrines and Opinions of this Quality ; so I think there will be no great Difficulty , either of Discovering , or of Suppressing them : For they are of a Condition so Notorious , that they ly open to all People : and then so Odious they are , by reason of the Gross Impiety , and Scandal ; that they have no Friends upon the Face of the Earth , ( for their own sakes , I mean ) but the profest Enemies Christianity , and Nature . ( It is another Case , when they are made use of in Subserviency to a Faction . ) So that you may save your selves the Trouble of Catechising your Brethren upon These two Points , and rather spend your Time upon the remaining Caution , for Securing the Government : which will be much more to Our Purpose ; For the Matter we are now upon , is a Question , rather of Policy , then of Religion . Toleration Discuss'd , BETWIXT A PRESBYTERIAN , AND AN INDEPENDENT . SECT . XXV . An Enquiry , upon a Short , and Impartial Survey of the Rise , Progress , and Issue of the War , raised by the Two Houses in 1641. Whether were more Criminal , The PRESBYTERIANS , or the INDEPENDENTS . Presb. IN all our Arguments , and Pleas for Toleration , we are still hit in the Teeth , ( as in Bar to our Demands ) with Dangerous Practises , and Opinions The Murther of the Late King The Over-turning of the Government and that we have a mind to serve the Son , as we did the Father . Now forasmuch as the Fact is undeniable and truly the Exception but Reasonable , as to those that did it ; We are first to clear our selves of that Execrable Fact ; wherein I am content to become an Undertaker for the Presbyterians ) And to speak afterward , to the Iustification of our Principles , and Opinions . ; ; ; ; Indep . Give me leave then to Plead the Cause of the Independents ; and to observe to you , in the first place , that the Scotch Non-Conformists under King Iames were Totally Presbyterian : and so were the English Puritans under Queen Elizabeth . Presb. Were the Anabaptists , Familists , and Brownists , that started up in Those Days , Presbyterians ? Indep . Some Dutch Anabaptists came over indeed in 1560 ; but one Proclamation scatter'd them Immediately . And then for the Familists , and Brownists , you speak of ; Alas ! They gave the Executioner more Trouble then the Government , and were Supprest as soon as Detected . But the Formal , and United Confederacy was still Presbyterian ; and you must overthrow all the Memorials , and Records of Those Times to gainsay it . Briesly ; If you look forward , you will find the Presbyterians again under King Iames , at Hampton Court ; The Presbyterians again , in the several Parliaments under King Charles the First ; and so the same Hand still , to the beginning of the Scottish Broils in 1637. which was but the Midwifry of the Plot , they had been so long a Hammering . Presb. You make nothing , it seems , of the Turbulent Independents , that went away to New England , Holland , and other Parts beyond the Seas , with all the Clamour , and ●…ancour Imaginable against the Government . Indep . Not to Justifie them in their Clamour ; I must yet recommend their Departure , as a fair Testimony that they withdrew upon Conscience . For by this Secession , they put themselves out of Condition to carry on a Faction : Whereas The Presbyterians , that had a further Design in Prospect , stood their Ground , watch'd their Advantages , and gain'd their End. Presb. All this is but Talk , without Proof . Indep . It will be granted , I suppose , that the Scottish Tumults in 1637. and the R●…bel ion upon the neck of them , in 1638 were advanc'd upon a Presbyterian accompt : and consequently , that Those were of the same Leven , that Voted them Good Subjects , and Money for their peins , and Adopted them their DEAR BRETHREN , for so doing . Were not the Principals of the Faction in the Long Parliament , every Man of them Presbyterian ? Were not the Army , and Ass●…mbly , Presbyterian ; And all their Votes , Actions , and Conclusions Influenc'd accordingly ? Who were they that Invited the Scots into England the Second time ; ( Nov 7. 164●… . ) That Imposed the Covenant ; Prosecuted the War , under the Countenance of it ; and made it the Test of Discrimination , betwixt the Malignant , and Well affected Parties : That Settled the Directory , Nay the Presbytery it self ? Were not These , Presbyterians ? Who were they , but Presbyterians , that stripp't the King of his Regalities , and Revenues ; Commission'd an Army against him ; Fought him , Pursu'd him ; and in fine , brought him to utter Ruine ? Presb. You will find the Late King of another Opinion , in his Grand Declaration , of Aug. 12. 1642. where he complains of the Tumultuous Assemblies of Brownists , Anabaptists , and other Sectaries . Indep . But still you will find in the same Page , that These very People were Animated , and Countenanced , by Presbyterians ; and Acted , as the Creatures , and Servants , of That Interest . Presb. Can you say that the English , or Scottish Preshyters did ever go about to Dissolve Monarchy ? Indep . Yes : And I do aver , that the Nineteen Propositions of Iune 2. 1642. were as much a Dissolution of Kingly Government , as the very Act it self ( of March 17. 1648. ) for Abolishing it . And the Uxbridge Propositions were to the same purpose . Presb. You know very well , that after the New-Modelling of the Army , the Presbyterians were able to do nothing ; and this was a good while before the King went to the Scots . Indep . Let us see then how the Presbyterians behaved themselves , after his Majesty cast himself into the Protection of the Scotch Army before Newark , in May , 1646. Notice was Immediately given of it , to the Two Houses , by the Commissioners of the Army ; Importing their Adherence to the Covenant , and Treaty ; and that they had no fore-knowledge of his Majesties Coming . The English Army presently March'd with 5000 Horse , and 〈◊〉 , toward Newark ; and our Brethren fairly retreated with the Prey in the Foot toward Newcastle . After This , Both Parties stood at Gaze for several Months ; but not without a World of Tedious Papers , betwixt the Scotch Commissioners , and the Two Houses , touching their Ioynt Right in Disposing of the Person of the King. But in the Conclusion , The Presbyterians Compounded the Controversie for the Sum of 400000l In May they took their Sovereign into their Protection ; In the December following , they Sold him ; and in February they Deliver'd him up ; And All This , According to their COVENANT . Presb. They must needs Deliver him up , when they could Keep him no longer . Indep . They had at that time the City of London to Friend ; a Balancing Vote in the House of Commons ; a Considerable Mixture in the Army ; Scotland behind them ; ( Entire , if ever the Kings Interest came in Play ) And at least Ten Thousand Men in a Body . ( The Royal Party over and above . ) So that here was no visible Force to over-awe them : And Lowdon himself acknowledged as much , at a Conference ( Octob. 6. 1646. ) If any such Course shall be taken ( says he ) or any Demand made for Rendring of his Person , which cannot stand with his Honour , and Safety ; or which cannot consist with our Duty , Allegeance , and COVENANT ; nor with the Honour of That Army , to whom ( in time of his Extreme Danger ) he had his Recourse for Safety : It cannot be Expected that we can be Capable of SO BASE AN ACT : And if ( to shun this , and avoid occasion of Quarrelling between the Kingdoms ) He shall go to Scotland , and resent his Expulsion out of England ; and crave the Assistance of That Kingdom for Recovery of his Right to This Crown : He may in a short time , raise such Forces in Scotland , and Ireland , as with the Assistance of Forreign Princes , these Kingdoms may be made a Field of Blood , &c. By This , it appears Evidently , that They were under no Necessity of Delivering the King : And you may now see their Opinion of the Action it self . [ If it be Contrary ( say the Scotch Commissioners ) to the Law , and Common Practise of Nations , to Deliv●…r up the meanest Subject fled to them , though it be for the Greatest Crimes ; How much more would the World abroad condemn our Army , for a BASE , DISHONOURABLE Act , if they should Deliver up their Head , and SOVEREIGN , ( having cast himself into their Hands ) to be Disposed of at the Arbitr●…ment of another Nation ! Presb. But yet you saw that they Condition'd for his Honour , Freedom , and Safety . Indep . That 's a Shuffle : For upon such Terms did they render him , that they might have cast a Sheep into a Herd of Wolves , with as much Confidence , and Likelihood of Safety . You are here to distinguish the F●…ction of Scotland , from the Nation : No Country affording greater Instances of Honour , and Loyalty . Nay , I have heard ( even on This Occasion ) that upon the Kings Earnest Desire to go for Scotland , It was carried in the Negative but by Two Voices . Presb. Can you Imagine , that if they had apprehended any Danger to his R●…yal Person , they would not have ventur'd their Libes a thousand time●… over , to have sav'd him ? Indep . No , no : But on the Contrary ; They Foresaw the Danger , debated it ; and yet expos'd him : Nay , which is still worse , they reserv'd him for it . Were not his Majesties Friends kept from him , by a strict Order , at Newcastle ? Was he not Spied , and Guarded , for fear of an Escape ? And upon Information , that He intended one , Was not a narrower Watch set over him ? That they foresaw the Danger , is confest by the Chancellor Himself . Lest we should walk in the Dark , ( says he ) upon Obscurity of Ambiguous Words , I shall desire , that the Word of Disposing of the Kings Person , may be rightly understood . For Dolus versatur in Universalibus . For to Dispose of the Person of the King , as Both Houses , or Both Kingdoms shall think fit , may in some sense be to DEPOSE , or WORSE . And in a Speech to his Majesty , he goes yet further . If your Majesty ( says he ) shall refuse to assent to the Propositions ; ( which God forbid ) you will lose all your Friends , lose the City , and the Country ; and All England will joyn against you as one Man : And ( when all hope of Reconciliation is past ) it is to be feared they will Process , and Depose you , and set up another Government . Upon your Majesties refusing the Propositions , both Kingdoms will be Constreined ( for their mutual Safety ) to Agree , and Settle Religion , and Peace without you : which ( to our unspeakable Grief ) will ruine your Majesty , and your Posterity . And if your Majesty reject our Faithful Advice , and lose England by your Wilfulness , your Majesty will not be permitted to come and ruine Scotland . Pres●… . These Propositions , I suppose were of Absolute Necessity to the Well-Being of the Publique ; they would never have been brought in Competition else with the Kings Freedom , Life , and D●…gnity ) . Indep . The King was first , to Iustifie the Pr●…ceedings of the Two Houses , and to deliver up to Death , Beggery , and Infamy his Whole Party . 2. To Settle the Militia of England , and Ireland , in the Hands of the Parliament , for Twenty Years ; giving them Authority to raise Men , and Moneys . 3. To make v●…id all Honours since 1642 ; and no Peers admitted for the future , to Sit ●…nd Vote in Parliament , but by Consen●… of Both Houses : who were likewise To dispose of all Great Places , and Offices of Honour , in England , and Ireland . 4. His Majesty was to Swear , and Sign the COVENANT , and Command the taking of it throughout the Three Kingdoms ; Abolishing Episcopacy , and Settling Religion as Both Houses should Agree . Upon his Majesties Refusal to Sign These Propositions , the Scotch Declaration of Ian. 16. 1646. tells us , That there would be a Ioynt Course taken by Both Kingdoms concerning the Disposal of His Majesties Person . — With Respect had to the Safety , and Preservation of his Royal Person , IN THE PRESERVATION , AND DEFENCE OF THE TRUE RELIGION , AND LIBERTIES OF THE KINGDOMS — According to the COVENANT . And According to the COVENANT , His Majesties Person was Disposed of . Presb. And do you believe that the Two Houses would have used the King any better , if he had gone to Them ? They made it Treason Immediately , and Death without Mercy , for any Man to Harbour , and Conceal the Kings Person ; upon a Supposition , that his Majesty was then in London . This was the fourth of May ; and on the sixth , The Commons Uoted him to Warwick Castle ▪ which was Unvoted again upon the ninth . In ●…une , the Kings going to the Scots , was Uoted A Design to Prolong the War. And this was as much the Action of the Independents , as the Other was of the Presbyterians . Indep . Pardon me there , I beseech ye . You see by the Voting Back and Forward , that the House of Commons was upon a hard Tug , but the Scottish Party was totally Presbyterian . But will you hear the Kirk speak for it self , after the putting of the King into English Hands ? They Exhort their COVENANTED BRETHREN , ( the Assembly at Westminster ) to hold fast their Solemn League and Covenant : to entertein a Brotherhood , and Unity between the Nations , ( Feb. 12. 1646. ) ( but not a Syllable of the King ) Again , ( Iune 18. 1647. ) The General Assembly of the Kirk , presses the Two Houses to a speedy Establishment of the Presbytery : ( but not a Word again of his Majesty . ) And in truth , their Silence is a Favour , considering how they order him , when they speak of him : As you may observe in a Resolve of theirs , upon a Question Debated at Edinburgh . If the King be Excluded from Government in England , for not Granting the Propositions concerning Religion , and the Covenant ; and for not giving a Satisfactory Answer to the Remanent Propositions : Whether in That Case it be Lawful for this Kingdom to assist him , for the Recovery of the Government , or whether it be not Lawful ? Being put to it , We cannot but Answer , in regard of the Engagement of This Kingdom , by Covenant , and Treaty , NEGATIVE . Resolved upon the Question , 1. That the Kingdom of Scotland , shall be Governed as it hath been these last Five Years ; All Means being used , that the King might take the Covenant , and Pass the Propositions . 2. That the taking of the Scots Covenant , and Passing some of the Propositions , doth not give Warrant to assist him against England . 3. That upon bare taking the National Covenant , we may not receive him . 4. That the Clause in the Covenant , for Defence of the Kings Person , is to be understood , in Defence , and Safety of the Kingdoms . 5. That the King shall not Execute any Power in the Kingdom of Scotland , until such time that he hath Granted the Propositions concerning Religion , and the Covenant ; and given a Satisfactory Answer to Both Kingdoms in the rest of the Propositions , presented to him by both Kingdoms at Newcastle . 6. That if his Majesty refuse to Pass the Propositions , he shall be disposed of according to the COVENANT , and Treaty . 7. That the Union be firmly kept between the Kingdoms , according to the Covenant , and the Treaties . Here 's PRESBYTERIAN LOYALTY : If the King would have consented to give up his Crown ; Blast his Conscience ; Betray his Trust , and Sacrifice his Friends ; he might perchance have been allow'd the Pageantry of a Court , and some Mock-Properties of Royalty : but upon other Terms , the Kirk you see gives him no Quarter . The King is now under the Care of his new Governours ; Holdenby is his Prison ; The Question is Matter of Church-Government ; and his Majesty is prest to an Alteration . Some Two Months are spent in the fruitless Desires , and Expectations of his Chaplains , for his Advice , and Comfort : and any Two ( of Twelve in Nomination ) would satisfie his Majesty . But That could not be ; ( they said ) No , not a Common-Prayer-Book for his own Private Use. These were the Presbyterians still . Upon the fourth of Iune 1647. Co●…not Ioyce , with a Party of Horse took the King from Holdenby ; under colour of preventing other Secret Designs upon the Person of his Majesty . The next day , at a Rendezvouz near Newmarket , was Read , and Signed The Armies ENGAGEMENT : compleining of the Two Houses , and in particular , of a Vote they had Past for Disbanding the Army . ( Where Note , that the Houses were still Presbyterian ) The Sum of their ENGAGEMENT was : That they would Disband , upon full Satisfaction received , and not without it . This Liberty was menag'd all this while , with much Formality of Duty , and Respect : The Houses at every Turn advertis'd concerning the King's Motions : and ( Iune the 9th ) consulted how further to Dispose of his Majesty . Some Three days after , the Army drew toward London , and Alarm'd the City : ( contrary to an Express Order of the Houses , the very day before ) A Months Pay was their Errand , and to save Carriage , they made a step from Royston to St. Albans to receive it . On Iune the 15 , out comes a Terrible Representation , with Desires from the Army , Against all Arbitrary Powers , and Interests whatsoever : Pleading the Presbyterian Presidents , and the Principles of the Two Houses in their Iustification . The Parliament ( say they ) hath Declar'd it no Resisting of Magistracy , to side with the Iust Principles , and Law of Nature , and Nations , ( being That Law upon which we have assisted you ) and that the Souldiery may Lawfully hold the Hands of the General , who will turn his Cannon upon his Army , on purpose to destroy them . They Demanded , The Purging of the Houses ; and Retrenching the Power of Committees ; An Accompt for Publique Moneys ; A Period of the Present Session , and Limits for the Future , &c. It could not chuse but Gall the Two Houses , to see their Throats cut with their own Weapons : but still they kept up their Greatness of Pretense , and Stile ; and by an Order as Imperative as ever , they commanded the Placing of his Majesty at Richmond ; in Order to a Treaty , forsooth , for a Safe , and Well-grounded Peace , But the Army had another Game to Play ; However , what the Presbyterians would have done upon that Occasion , may be seen in what they did afterward , at the Isle of Wight , in his Majesties last Distress , and Extremity . Presb. You are willing , I find , to pass over the Barbarism of the Independents toward his Majesty , while they had him at H●…mpton-Court but there is enough yet behind , to make That Faction Odious to all Eternity . ; Indep . Truly no : but I would not spin out a Debate to the length of a History . As to the Barbarisms you speak of , let his Majesty Himself be heard . Colonel Whaley , I have been so civilly used by You , and Major Huntington , that I cannot but by this parting Farewell , acknowledge it under my Hand . Nov. 11. 1647. And again ; from Carisbrook Castle to the General , Nov. 27. 1647. The Free Liberty which you willingly afforded us to have of the use of our Own Chaplains , makes us at this time not only to Acknowledge your Former Civilities , but , &c. So that His Majesties Condition appears to have been somewhat more easie at Hampton-Court , then before it was at Holdenby . Nay , most certain it is , that the Presbyterians , even at That very Time , did the Deadly Thing that brought the King to the Seaffold . Presb. How could That be ; when the Two Houses , by Purging , and Modelling , were Subjected Absolutely to the Devotion of the Army ? Indep . Thus they did it . His Majesty was at That time , upon fair Terms with Cromwel , and Ireton ; and not without large hopes of a Final Accommodation . ( The Author of The History of Independency , ( Pa. 35. ) is positive , as to their Treating with the King ) While This was in Agitation , the Presbyterians were at work on the other hand , to break the King's Confidence in the Army ; by Imputations of Treachery , and Levity : to divert his Majesty to the Seeking of Relief elswhere ; with particular Undertakings of great Matters from Scotland , and the City of London . This way of Tampering might very well put the King to a stand : which Cromwel no sooner perceived , but he Immediately betook himself to a Course of Extremity : Irritated ( over and above , as is credibly affirmed ) by an Advise foom Argyle , in confirmation of his Jealousie . His Majesties next Remove was to the Isle of Wight : Where , for Ceremonies sake , he was presented with Four Bills ; and upon his Refusal to pass them , followed the Vote of NON-ADDRESSES . In Passing these Bills , His Majesty had not only divested Himself , and His Successors , of all Sovereignty ; but Subjected his People to the Basest , and most Absolute Tyranny that ever was Excrcis'd upon Mortals . Presb. You will not call This the Act of the Presbyterians , I hope . Indep . No , I will not : But yet I must tell you , that the Presbyterians , upon this Juncture , did every jote as much as this Amounts to . So soon as the Parliament of Scotland was thoroughly Inform'd of the Distress , and Danger of the King's Condition , the Matter was presently Debated ; and a Resolution taken to Raise an Army for his Majesties Relief . In which Proceeding , they were violently opposed by the Genral Assembly , without any regard at all to the King's Life , at that time in Q●…estion . See The Humble Desires of the Commissioners of the General Assembly to the Parliament , Pag. 13. ( We desire that his Majesties late Concessions , and Offers concerning Religion , as they have been by the Church , so may be by the Parliament declared UNSATISFACTORY . ( March 22. 1648. ) And afterward : ( Ian. 10. 1648. ) That his Majesties late Concessions , and Offers concerning Religion , may by your Lordships , DIRECTLY , and POSITIVELY , be Declared UNSATISFACTORY to this present Parliament . And that there shall be no Engagement for Restoring his Majesty to one of his Houses , with Honour , Freedom , and Safety , before Security , and Assurance be had from his Majesty , by his Solemn OATH , under his HAND , and SEAL , that ●…e shall for HIMSELF , and his SUCCESSORS , Consent , and Agree to Acts of Parliament , enjoyning the League and Covenant , and fully Establishing Presbyterian Government , Directory of Worship , and Confession of Faith in all his Majesties Dominions : and that his Majesty shall never make Opposition to any of these , or endeavour any Change thereof . This is Rivetted with a Mischief . And pray'e shew me now the Material Difference , between Precluding His Majesty by a Vote of NO ADDRESS , or by a Resolution of NO AGREEMENT : His Honour , and Conscience being equally at Stake on either side . To give you the Sum of all in short . The Presbyterians began the War ; Pursu'd it ; made the King a Prisoner ; Sold him ; and in the Depth of his Calamity , presented him with Templation , instead of Comfort . No Composition would be heard of , but the Forfeiture of his SOUL , for the Saving of his LIFE . Presb. But the Independents however , Crown'd the Wickedness with his Blood. Indep . Suppose it so : They did only Execute the Sentence , but the Presbyterians Pronounc'd it . Neither did they Execute it , as Independents ; or under colour of any Impulse of Religion , or Conscience , but upon Civil , and Political Pretexts . He was adjudged to be put to Death as a Tyrant , Traytor , Murtherer , and Publique Enemy : Not for Refusing to Enter into a Church-Covenant , or Establish Liberty of Conscience ; but upon a Pestilent Motive of Diabolical Policy , and State. Whereas , the Presbyterians persecuted him as PRESBYTERIANS ; and depriv'd him of his Royal Support , Dignity , Friends , Freedom , ( in Effect ) Life and all , because he would not renounce his Reason , and Conscience , in favour of their Government . And I am verily perswaded , that you will have as little to say for your Principles , as for your Actions . SECT . XXVI . What Party soever DEMANDS a Toleration , and yet Mainteins , that It is Destructive both of Church , and State , to GRANT one , Is an ENEMY to BOTH . Indep . AS to the Point in Question ; It lies Naturally before us to speak first to the Thing , in it self ; and we may afterward consider it in the Consequences . In the Desire of a Toleration , the Independents ask no more then they would be ready to Allow ; I wish the Presbyterians could say the like . Presb. In the large sense of Allowing all sorts of Libertines , and Heretiques , as the late Independent Government did , I do confess you have out-done the Presbyterians . Indep . And yet Those very Libertines , and Heretiques , were Your White-Boys , and Favourites , so long as they serv'd Your Ends. They had none of this Language from you , when they Tumulted against Bishops , and Common-Prayer ; Ceremonies , and Popish Lords . While they were the Instruments of Your Ambition , they were the Godly , Well-affected Party : So that Heretiques , it seems , will down well enough with your Politiques , though not with your Consciences : Provided they will content themselves to be Damn'd , and let the Presbyterians alone to Govern. Presb. The Independents made sweet work in Holland , did they not ? And where was your Spirit of Toleration , and Forbearance , I beseech you , in New-England ? Indep . You cannot say that we gave any Trouble in Holland to the State ; or that we fell foul there upon Different Iudgments . In New-England , 't is true , we excluded the Gortonists , Familists , Seekers , Antinomians , Anabaptists ; and Subjected them to the Censure of the Civil Power , as People of Dangerous Principles , in Respect both of Good Life , and Government . Which Proceeding of our●… methinks might serve to disabuse those that call Independency the Genus Generalissimum of all Errours , Heresies , Blasphemies , and Schisms : and take the Church way of New-England , for that sort of Independency . They did also exclude Papacy , and Prelacy ; The Latter , perchance , more out of Regard to a Temporary Convenience , then upon any rooted Principle of Implacable Severity . And I perswade my self , the Episcopal Party will witness thus much on our Behalfs ; that as to the Freedom of their Meetings , and way of Worship , in the late Revolutions , they had much better Quarter from the Independents , then ever they had from the Presbyterians : There was no Persecuting of Men for Covenants , and Directories : So that Thus far , the Independents have made their Professions of Liberty good , by their Practise . Presb. And are not the Classical Presbyterians as much for a Lawful Liberty , as the Congregationals ? [ L●…t there be a Toleration in Religion , excepting to Blasphemy , Treason , or Gross Errours . ] Bear with the Weak ; Tolerate the Tolerable , and for the Intolerable , we beg not your Toleration . ●…ere's the Sense and Destre of the Presbyterian Divines that were Commission'd about the Review of the Service-Book . Indep . This is only a New Song , to an Old Tune . The Presbyterians have just the same need of the Independents at this day , that they had some nine and twenty Years ago . The Author of The Discourse of Religion has many good Remarques upon the Papists , that may be very well applied to the Presbyterians ; and This for One. [ Things past ( says he ) may afford Prognostiques of things to come . So that we are to gather what you intend now , from what you did , after saying the same things before . Or if you had rather come to a Tryal , upon the Evidence of your own Manifestos , and Declarations , then upon the History of your Practises ; I shall make use of no other Testimony against you . The Presbyterians press the Demand of a Toleration , as a very reasonable Request ; and yet they Themselves have pronounc'd Judgment against it , as a thing against Conscience , Destructive of Publique Order both in Church , and State , and of the Peace of Common Society . Toleration ( says Mr. Edwards ) cannot be Condescended to , without a Breach of Oath , and Covenant . [ It is the Depth of Satan , this Design of a Toleration . He does not move for a Toleration of Heresies , and Gross Errours ; but an Allowance of a LATITUDE in some LESSER DIFFERENCES with Peaceableness . This is Candidus ille Diabolus , That White Devil , &c. The London Ministers Letter to the Assembly , in 1645. declares it Repugnant to the Solemn League and Covenant . The Commissioners of the Kirk of Scotland , do Protest , and Declare against it , as Inconsistent with , and Repugnant to the Word of God. As to the Influence of a Toleration upon Church , and State ; Mr. Edwards tells us , that The Party Tolerated will never rest Working , till they get the upper hand , and Suppress the Other . Rutherford is positive , that such Opinions , and Practises as make an Evident Schism in a Church , and set up two Distinct Churches , of Different Forms , and Government , are NOT to be Tolerated . For by their Principles they labour , each the Destruction of the other ; and this Toleration destroys Peace , and Unity . Again , The London Ministers are of Opinion , that it will produce causless , and unjust Revolts from the Ministry , and Congregations . The Peoples Minds will be Troubled , and in Danger to be Subverted . Heart-burnings will be Fomented , and Perpetuated to Posterity . The Godly , Peinful , and Orthodox Ministers will be Discouraged , and Despis'd . The Life and Power of Godliness will be eaten up by Frivolous Disputes , and Ianglings . And the whole Church of England , in short time , will be swallowed up with Distraction , and Confusion . The Kingdom will be wofully weakned also , by Scandals , and Divisions : The Power of the Magistrate will not be only weakned , but utterly overthrown , by the Anti-Magistratical Principles , and Practises of the Independents : And the whole Course of Religion in Private Families , will be interrupted , and undermined . Not to multiply Authorities more then necessary , This has been the strein of all your Proceedings : Imperiously , and Inexorably Strict , and Rigorous in Imposing upon Others ; and as Shamelesly Importune , and Clamorous for Liberty to Your selves . But what have I more to do , then to pass Sentence upon you , out of your own Mouths ? You cannot in Conscience desire a Toleration , if you understand it to be Against Conscience to Grant it . And the very Asking of That which you believe would draw a Destruction upon Church and State , is Ground enough for a strong Presumption that you Intend it . Presb. That which was a Reasonable Cause of Refusal , from the Presbyterians to the Independents , will not hold good from the Church of England to the Presbyterians : Either in respect of the Stability of our Government , or of the Sobriety of our Principles . SECT . XXVII . In Case of a Toleration , or Indulgence to be Granted , Whether has the fairer Pretense to it ; The CLASSICAL Way of the PRESBYTERIANS , or the CONGREGATIONAL Way of the INDEPENDENTS ; in Respect of their Form of Government . Indep . THe Presbyterians ( you say ) are rather to be Tolerated then the Independents , in regard of the Stability of their Government , and the Sobriety of their Principles , To speak in this Place to the Matter of their Government ; I think your Argument is very ill grounded . For in Deliberations of this Nature , the Cautions that occur to all Magistrates are chiefly These Two. First , in case of an Indulgence , that it may be placed upon a Party , which in Probability , would not disturb the Publique if they could ; But Secondly , to make sure however , ( for fear of the worst ) that they shall not be able to do it , if they would . So that whether a Stable , and United , or a Loose , and Distracted Interest may with more Security be Indulged , is the Question . Presb. You may as well ask , Whether Order , or Confusion be more Tolerable in a Government . Indep . That Order which is Necessary in the Government it self , is Dangerous in the Enemies of it . But deliver your Exceptions to the Toleration of those which you call Independents , in Regard of their way of Government . Presb. You have already , in a good part , sav'd me that Labour . But a Man shall not need to go further for an Exception , then to the very Denomination of them ; which Imports an Exemption from all Iurisdiction , both Eclesiastical , and Civil . Indep . But what will become of That Exception , when I shall tell you , that those People are no more Independent , then the Presbyterians ? [ We depend upon the Magistrate for Civil Government , and Protection ; and upon Christ , and his Word , for the Rule of our Administrations . Nay , we insist upon it , that the Congregational Way , is the only true , Original Presbytery , which is Peculiar to every Particular Church of Christ. But if you call us Independent , as in distinction to Subordinate , we are not only ready , as such Independents , to defend our selves ; but by virtue of That very Independency , we pretend to claim an Advantage over the Presbyterians . Presb. I could tell ye of your Church-Covenants , and Defensive Leagues , against the Commands of Authority . Indep . But I could speak homer to you , of your National Leagues and Covenants ; which all the World knows , are the grand Engines to disjoynt Communities , and remove the Foundations of Government . And I do not much wonder at it , where the Act of a General Assembly , Influences the Consciences of a whole Nation . As to any Covenants , and Leagues against the Magistrate ; neither do the Independents practise them , nor would they stand them in any stead , if they had a mind to play the Villeins ; for want of an Orderly Dependence , to unite , and to oblige them . Presb. And for That Reason , you Imagine , the Independents may be better Tolerated , then the Presbyterians . Indep . Truly for That Main Reason , with Twenty Great ones more in the Belly of it . It were a wild thing for a Man to apprehend any danger to a Government , from a Faction that is Divided , and Distracted within it self ; and without any Common Tye of Agreement to Unite it . And This do I take to be the Condition of the Independents , ( which for Discourse sake , we will suppose to be a Faction . ) Their Congregations are generally small ; The Members of them , gather'd up here and there , and so Scattered , and Intermix'd with People of other Perswasions , that they have neither Opportunity , nor Encouragement to joyn in a Conspiracy . Besides that in Respect of their Church-Parity , they want that ordinary Medium of Superiority , and Subjection , to link them together in a Combination , upon the Point of Common Interest . Another Difficulty will arise from the Affections of the Pastors themselves ; who are not without their touches of Disgust , and Emulation , to see themselves either Out-vied , or Deserted : the One , by Fuller Congregations ; and the Other , by the Removal of their Members from one Church to another . Presb. If I am not mistaken , you have provided against the Inconvenience of Breaking in One upon Another ; by an Obligation at your Entrance into any Church , not to forsake it without Leave . But proceed . Indep . There remains yet behind , another Obstacle , equal to all the rest : Which is ; that the Independents have no Men that are Eminent for Popularity , Interest , Great Fortunes , and Abilities , to head them . Now how it is possible for a Party under all these Disadvantages , to work any Mischief to the State , I am not wise enough to imagine . If you object , that the late Independent Government had many Persons at the Helm , that were qualified with these Circumstances . I must Answer you , that whatever they were , they did not set up Originally for Independency . Presb. So that upon the Result , to save your Party from Appearing Dangerous , you have made it Contemptible . And your Argument would have run very well in These Words . The Independents may better be Tolerated then the Presbyterians : for no Body that has either Brains , or Reputation , will own Independency . Indep . As an Interest ( you should have said ) whereupon to work any Change of Government . ( And this would have been point-blank to the Question , and your Period never the worse for 't . ) Now if my Reason be good on the behalf of the Independents , that They may be Tolerated without any Risque to the Commonwealth , upon the Considerations before mentioned : It will hold as good against the Presbyterians ; because of the very Contrary Circumstances in their Government , and Case . That is to say , They are at great Agreement in the Orderly Reduction , and Connexion of their Polity ; and they have commonly found Great Friends to uphold them in their Pretenses . My first Exception to Presbytery is , that it is a National Church-Government . And Methinks Two National Church-Governments in the same Kingdom , looks like a Sharing of the Sovereignty , and the setting up of Christs Vicar against Gods Vice gerent . And what will the People say in the Matter , but either that the Government thinks them in the Right , or else that 't is affraid of them ? The former Supposition draws the Simple into the Party upon Conscience ; and the Latter engages the Crafty upon Interest . To take it now in the Constitutive Parts of it ; The Scale of the Presbytery rises Thus : From Parochial Inspection , to Classical ; from Classical to Provincial ; and from Provincial , to National : Which Extensive Latitude , and Comprehension , does plainly discover , that there was a Design of Sole , and Sovereign Dominion in the very Institution of the Discipline . To say nothing in this Place of the Absolute , and Independent Authority Claimed , and Exercised by the General Assembly ; I shall only observe this to you : That they have the best Security in the World , for their Subjects Obedience to all their Acts , and Conclusions whatsoever . For Life , Fortune , Soul , and all lies at Stake : They Fine , Punish , Degrade , Excommunicate at Pleasure . And this is the True Reason , that from time to time , the Presbyterial Discipline has had the Countenance of so many Popular Advocates , and Abetters . For certainly , it is the best Foundation for an Alteration of State , that ever was yet laid upon the Face of the Earth ; and their Work is three quarters done to their hand , in the very Disposition of the Model . Only one Observation more , and I have done . And That is , The Provident Commixture of Laity , and Clergy in all their Counsels ; These to Attaque the Church , the Other , the State ; by which means , they may the more commodiously carry on Schism , and Sedition in their proper Seasons : and leave a Door of Preferment , and Advantage , open to all Comers . I will not say yet , that it is absolutely Impossible for a Protestant Monarchy , and this Double refin'd Presbytery to prosper in the same Soil : But if I had Money in my Pocket , I would not give any Prince in Christendom above Eighteen Months Purchase for his Crown , that should put it to the Venture . For he has nothing in the World to trust to , but Miracles : The Gratitude , Faith , Good Nature , and Pure Integrity of the Party . SECT . XXVIII . Whether may be better Tolerated in This Kingdom , The Presbyterians , or the Independents ; in Respect of their PRINCIPLES , and Ordinary PROCEEDINGS . Debated , First , With Relation to his Majesties PERSON , and AUTHORITY . Indep . THe Government of England is Monarchique ; but so attemper'd with Legal Provisions ▪ for the Comfort , and Benefit of the People , that every Englishman has his Interest in the Preservation of the Law ; as That which Intitles him to the Free Enjoyment of his Life and Fortune : So that we are to frame our Discourse with a Regard to His Majesties PERSON , and Royal AUTHORITY ; The Foundation , and Execution of the LAW ; The Rights , and Just Liberties of the PEOPLE : Utterly excluding from the Limits of Our Toleration , all Power or Pretense whatsoever , that shall presume to Usurp upon any of These Particulars . Now to begin with the First . What do you find in the Independent Way , that may endanger his Majesty , either in his Person , or in his Prerogative ? Presb. The Princes of Germany would Answer you , that your Proceedings are Sangu●…nary , and Violent : not only against your Actual Opposers , but against the very Ordinance of Magistracy it self . Indep . What are the Furies of the Anabaptists to us , that have Declared against them , as well as You ? But if you can fasten upon those of the Congregational Way , any Antimonarchical Opinions , or Practises , which are either wrap't up in the Bowell of That Profession , or naturally Issuing from thence : and make good your Assertion , by proving what you say , to have been the Formal Act of any One of our Churches by it self , or More of them in Combination , I will never open my Mouth after it , in a Plea for the Independents . Presb. It were a hard matter indeed to fasten any thing upon the Principles ●…f a Party , that professes to have no Principles , but still refers it self to the Guidance of a Further Light. Indep . And yet you can blame us for our Principles , though by your own Confession , you know not What they are . Now for the Reserve of Acting according to a Further Light ; It is exprest , in the Ordinary Form of our Church Covenant , that it is to be reach'd unto us out of the Word ; which most assuredly will not lead us into any Evil. If this be all you have to say against the Independents , I would gladly hear what Defence you are able to make for the Presbyterians : Either Simply , and in Themselves ; or else Comparatively with any other sort of People . Nay , I should not much care if you took the Iesuits Themselves for your Foil . Presb. How can you say This ? Considering , [ that Thundring of Excommunication , which has sounded in all Ages , since the beginning of the Papal Reign , against Kings , Emperours , &c. And These Practises Iustified by their Decretals , and Canons ; Divines of greatest Authority , and some of their Councils : Ascribing to the Pope a Power of Deposing Princes that are Heretical●… or Favourers of Heretiques . The Iesuits Doctrine of KING-KILLING hath made them Odious , &c. Indep . Do you tell us of PAPALEXCOMMUNICATIONS , justified by Canons , Divines , Councils ; DEPOSING of Kings for Heresie ; and the Iesuits Doctrine of KING-KILLING , & c ? The Disciple should speak Reverently of his Master : for I assure you , a Iesuits Cloak sits exceedingly well upon the Shoulders of a Presbyterian . To Discipline , must all the States within the Realm be Subject , as well the Rulers , a●… the Ruled . ( According to the Discipline of the Kirk of Scotland , Printed in London , 1647. The Person of the Magistrate ought to be Subject to the Kirk , Spiritually , and in ECCLESIASTICAL GOVERNMENT : Submitting himself to the Discipline of the Kirk , if he Transgress in Matters of Conscience , and Religion . Beza , Buchanan , ( and in truth , the whole Brotherhood ) are for the Excommunication of Princes . So that there 's Presbyterial EXCOMMUNICATION you see , as well as Papal . And in Case of Superstition , and Idolatry , the Presbyter can DEPOSE too , as well as the Pope , in Case of Heresie . Was not the Queen-Regent in Scotland ( 1559. ) Deposed , upon the Encouragement , and with the Approbation of Willock , Knox , and their Fellows ? As not doing her Duty to the Subjects ; and as a vehement Mainteiner of Superstition , and Idolatry ? Did not the Commissioners of the Kirk ( in 1596. ) threaten an Open Protestation against King Iames , and his Council , in Case of either Pardoning , or Restoring the Popish Lords that were at that time under Banishment ? As to the Iesuits Doctrine of KING-KILLING ; We are able not only to Match , but to Out-doe it , out of the School of the Consistory . There is no doubt but the Iesuits are Guilty of Delivering Doctrine that naturally leads to King-Killing Conclusions . But do ye find that ever they said in plain Terms ; It is Lawful for Subjects to take up Arms against their Sovereign , in Case of Religion ; Or that ever they Publiquely Applauded the Murther of a Prince , after the Fact was Committed ? Certainly , in this Particular , the Consistorian Copy goes beyond the Papal Original . Upon a dangerous Uproar that was raised by the Ministers , in Edinburgh , ( 1596. ) The King by Proclamation , discharged all Iudicatories from Sitting there . Whereupon the Ministers prest a Bond of Association , upon the Noblemen , and Barons ; and sent a Letter ( drawn by Robert Bruce , and Walter Balcanquel ) to the Lord Hamilton to Head them : For by the Motion of God's Spirit , and animated by the Word , the People had gone to Arms , in Defence of the Church , &c. Not to trouble you with a Rabble of Unnecessary Instances : In the Ninth Section , there has been said more than enough upon this Subject already . You shall now see the Veneration they have for the PERSONS of Princes . Gibson , in the Pulpit , denounced that Curse against King Iames , that fell upon Ieroboam : that he should die Childless , and be the last of the Race . ( An. 1585. ) which words , by the Assembly , ( with much a do , and after declining the Question , were found to be Scandalous . David Blake preached , that all Kings were the Devils Barns , and His Majesty had detected the Treachery of his Heart . For which he was cited before King and Council , and appeal'd to the Presbytery , who by their Commissioners moved his Majesty for a Surcease of the Process , with a charge , in case of refusal , to Protest against the Proceedings of the Counsel . Quasi Pulpita ( sayes Cambden ) a Regum Authoritate essent Exempta . As if Pulpits were priviledged from the Authority of Princes . Iohn Welch , at the High Church in Edinburgh , preached , that the King was possest with a Devil , and that the People might Rise Lawfully , and take the Sword out of his hand . But what is all this , in comparison with the License of the late times here at Home , when the Two Houses , and Assembly were daily entertained with Sermons and Pamphlets of this Quality , for which the Authors had their Thanks , and Imprimanturs ? But I shall rather confine my self now , to the Arbitrary excesses of the Scottish Presbytery , as the Model of the Covenanted and blessed Reformation . To come now to their Usurpation upon the Civil Power . King Iames was surpriz'd at Ruthuen ( 1582. ) under pretext of Religion , and kept 5 months a Prisoner . This Act was publiquely justified by the Assembly at Edinburgh , as done for the Preservation of the Kings Person and Religion . In the Case of Andrew Melvil : It was insisted upon , that Treason in the Pulpit , fell under the Cognition of the Presbytery , and that neither King nor Counsel , Primâ Instantiâ , ought to meddle with it . But it is a much easier matter to find what a Prince may not do , ( under the Inspection of a Presbytery ) then what he may . He must not a receive an Embassader , nor b pardon an Offender , without the Approbation of the Kirk . Nor so much as chuse his own Guards ; c Court-Officers , or Counsellers , nor Issue out any Proclamations or Decrees . They are to direct him d what Forfeitures to take , and how to dispose of them : when to Arme , and whom to Trust. If the King has a a mind to Feast an Embassader , they presenly indict a Fast e ; and Curse the Magistrates almost to Excommunication , for not observing it . Nay so little Power had King Iames with these people , that f when his Mother was under a Sentence of Death , he could not get them so much as to Pray for her , That God would Illuminate her with the Light of his Truth , and save her from the Apparent danger she was in . On the other side ; they claim to themselves the Power of Warr , and Peace ; of Calling and Dissolving Assemblies ; and whensoever they shall think fit to say , that the Good of the Church ; the Glory of God ; or any Spiritual end is concerned , They make no Scruple in the World , of Levying Armes , Men , Monies ; Seizing of Castles , and Forts ; Issuing out of Warrants for Members of Parliament . a They impose Oaths and Covenants against the King Himself ; b Encounter Proclamations with Anti Protests ; c Rescind Acts of Counsels , &c. And what 's the colour for all this Haughtiness and State ? The Ministers ( forsooth ) are Christs Deputies ; and their Acts are Christ's Ordinances ; whereas Iudges , Counsellers , and Parliaments are but the King's Substitutes , and their Laws only Humane . Presb. You are not any more to conclude against the Presbyterial Government , from the President of some Factious Assemblies , than against the Constitution of Parliaments , from the President of some Seditious Compositions and Elections . Indep . Neither do I charge these Imposing Usurpations upon the Confederacy of a Cabal , or a Faction , but upon the Original Scope , and Mystery of the Discipline ; for I find them rooted in the very Foundation of their Policy . Their Pragmatical Intermedling in Civil Affairs , and Matters of State , is warranted by their Book of Government ; where it is said , that The Minister handleth External things , only for Conscience cause : Now I would fa●…n know That Notion which may not some way or other , be made Relative to Conscience . For Limiting the Magistrate in the Exercise of his Power , they have this Plea ; that though the Ministers do not EXERCE the Civil Iurisdiction , they TEACH the Magistrate how it should be Exercised , according to the Word . So that the Prince is put to Schoole to the Masterships of his Parish , to learn every point and circumstance of his Duty . Now for the Absolute , and Boundless Iurisdiction of their General Assemblies : They tell us , not only that The Kirk is to appoint Times and Places convenient for their Meeting ; but that as well Magistrates , as Inferiours , are to be SUBIECT to the IUDGMENT of the same ; in Ecclesiastical Causes , without any Reclamations or APPEAL , to any Iudge Civil or Ecclesiastical . Is not this a Dethroning of Majesty , to set Princes , and Peasants upon the same Level in point of Subjection to their Resolutions and Decrees ? Presb. Not at all ; For the Magistrate is to assist , and maintein the Discipline of the Kirk ; And punish them Civilly that will not obey the Censure of the same . Indep . In truth it is a Goodly Office , you have allotted the Chief Magistrate ; to set him Cheek by Iowle with the Beadle of the Parish : You are to direct the Punishment , and He is to Execute it . But what if he should prove Refractary , and dispute yo●…r Authority ? In Case of Contumacy , He is as Liable to Censure ( you say ) as another person . And then you have no more to do , but to resort to your ordinary Method of Calling in the Noblemen , Barons , Gentlemen , Burgesses , and Commons to your Assistance against him . Let me now marque to you , two Passages in your Discipline , that make two shrewd discoveries . [ A Minister ( you say ) must not frequent , and commonly haunt the COURT , unless either sent by the Kirk , or called upon by Authority for his Counsel , and Iudgment in CIVIL AFFAIRS . And afterwards , you say , that , Ministers may and should assist their Princes , when required , in all things agreeable to the Word ; whether it be in COUNSEL , or PARIAMENT , or otherwise . Provided , that through Flattery of Princes , they hurt not the Publique state of the Church . Whence it appears ; First , that simple Presbyters may do well enough in Parliaments , or Councils ; though Bishops are Excluded : were it not Secondly , for the danger of creating a Kindness betwixt the King , and the Kirk ; which in consequence would frustrate the main Design . For the Prime end of this Church Policy is the Overtopping and Subjecting of the Secular Power : and it was wisely done to temper the very Foundation of it with Principles of Opposition to the Order , and well Being of Civil Government . SECT . XXIX . The Question of Toleration , ●…etwixt Presbytery , and Independency ; Debated , with regard to the Foundation , and Execution of the LAW . Presb. WHat if you had put the Question betwixt a Peaceable , and Obedient sort of people , and a Generation of men that cannot live out of Contention . Indep . The m●…n of Contention , I suppose you would have me understand to be the Independents . What 's the Quarrel to them upon the matter now before us ? Presb. Only This : that they are Intolerable in any Government . How many Plots have they had upon this Kingdom , since his Majesties Return ? There was Venner's Rising ; A Conspiracy in the North ; Another in Ireland . Indep , And all this while , y●…u forget the Rebellion in Scotland , which was professedly Presbyterian ; beside that , These disorders which you speak of , were nothing at all to the Independents : But ( one way or other ) these Instances are to no purpose without some Authoritative Allowance ; and Pray'e let us agree upon it , that only the Conclusions of the Kirk , on the one hand , and of the Church on the other , may be Insisted upon , as the Acts of either Party . Presb. I do not find that the Independent Churches ▪ come to any Resolutions at all . Indep . You have the less to say then against their Principles ; and I wish the Indep●…ents could say the same thing for the Presbyterians . How far , I beseech you , are Humane Laws Binding ? Presb. ●…o far forth as they are agreeable to the Word of God. Indep . And who shall Determine what Laws and Constitutions are agreeable to God's Word ? Presb. The Church Lawfully Constitute ; which all Godly Princes , and Magistrates ought to hear , and to obey their voice , and reverence the Majesty of the Son of God speaking in them . Indep . I need not ask what Church that is ; For Iohn M●…rellius was Excommunicate , for mainteyning in a certain Treatise , That TELL THE CHURCH , did not belong to the Consist●…ry , and the Book was burnt . But to the Poynt . If the Word of God be the Rule for Humane Laws ; and the Presbytery , the sole Expounders of the Word of God ; the Law of the Nation is at the Mercy of the Kirk already : for 't is but saying , that This or That Law is not Agreeable to the Word of God , and there 's an end on 't . Presb. The Kirk has Power to Abrogate and Abolish all Statutes , a●… Ordinances concerning Ecclesiastical Matter●… , that are found n●…ysome , and unpro●…table , and agree not with the ●…ime , or are abused by the People . Indep . If the Kirk has This Power , the Pope Himself pretends to nothing beyond it . Are not your Determinations as pere●…ptory ; and your Orders as Imperious ? But I am speaking here , as to the Latitude of your Pretended Iurisdiction . You may abrogate All Statutes ( you say ) CONCERNING Ecclesiastical Matters . And I say , on the other side , that you may upon that Ground , abrogate all the Statutes in the Christian World : for I defie the whole race of Mankind , to shew me any one Law extant , or the very supposition of a Law possible ▪ which may not some way or other ▪ be said to CONCERN Ecclesiastical Matters . Presb. You take no notice , how this Power is clogg'd with Limitations . If they be found Unprofitable , Unseasonable , or to be abused by the People . Indep . Very good : And if the Kirk shall think fit to find them so or so ; Pray'e What Remedy ? B●…t their own Avowed Actions , and Declarations , are the Best Comments upon their own Principles . Under King Iames in Scotland , nothing was more ordinary , then over-Ruling Acts of Parliament by the Acts of the Assembly : Did they not erect a Counsel of the Church in Edenborough , 1596. and take upon them to Convene , Examine , and Censure at pleasure such as they suspected to hold any Correspondence with certein Excommunicate Lords ? did they not also appoint to meet in Armes , at the Tryal of them ? Nor did they think it enough , to Rescind ▪ or supersede Acts of Parli●…ment and General Ass●…mblies : but People must be Qu●…stion'd too for yielding Obedience to Acts of Parliament , and of General Counsels under Colour of Unjust Laws . Wee 'l close this particular with the Judgment of the Commissioners of the General Assembly of Scotland , of May 5. 1648. The Authority of Parliament is one thing ; an Act of Parliament another thing . We do still acknowledg their Authority , when we obey not This or That Act. And whatsoever be the TREASON of Impugning the Authority of PARLIAMEN●… , It can be no Treason to obey GOD rather then MAN : Neither did the General Assembly of Glasgow , 1638. and such as were active for the Covenant at That time , commit any Treason , when they Impugned Episcopacy , and P●…rch Articles , although ratify'd , and strengthen'd by Acts of PARLIAMENT , and standing LAWS then Unrepealed . Presb. When we have once gotten Power into our hands , we are all too apt to abuse it . But I cannot yet perswade my self that the Root of these Practises is to be found in their Principles . Their Books of Discipline are Publick ; and no Government would ever entertein it , if there were such danger in it . Indep . How was the Covenant entertein'd ? or who would have dream'd of any harm in a League for the Preservation and Defence of the King's Majestie 's Person and Authority ? And yet the Presbyterian Interpretation , and Salvo of Subordinating his Majesties SAFETY and PRESERVATION , to the Defence of the TRUE RELIGION ( immediately following ) and the Kirks assuming to Themselves the Judgment of that Religion , brought both King and Church to Destruction . Nor can you choose but Observe the Holy Discipline , and Covenant , to be both of a Stile , and both of a Design : Their Claim concerning Ecclesiastical Matters , hooks in all Laws ; and In the Defence of the true Religion , They usurp an Authority over all Magistrates . This Discipline ( at the best ) is but a Worm at the Root of Civil Government : Wheresoever it comes , the Secular Power hangs the head , and droops upon it , and never thrives after . But to Sovereign Princes , a man might say of it , as God said to Adam , of the Apple : In the day you eat thereof , you shall dye the death . Now as it is manifestly destructive of Law in the very Foundations of it , to carry an Appeal from all Temporal Governours and Constitutions , to the Scepter and Sentence of Christ , sitting upon his TRIBUNAL in the PRESBYTERY ( the Language of Beza himself ) so likewise have they their Preparatory Artifices for Obstructing the Execution of Law , and for the Weakening , and Distracting of a Government before they enter upon the Great Work of Dissolving it . And this is effected by the Trojan Horse ( as one calls it ) of their Excommunication , that carries all the Instruments and Engines of Publique Ruine , and Confusion in the belly of it . By Virtue of this Device , they do not only impose upon all Ministers , and Courts of Justice ; but they may , when they please ( as Hooker observes ) send out their Writs of Surcease ; and fetch in the whole Business of Westminster-Hall , to the Bar of the Consistory . Or at the fairest , ( according to Beza's Distinction ) if they allow the Civil Iudg to try the Fact ( as mere Civile ) yet de Iure Controverso , Ecclesiasticum Syn●…drium constat Respondisse : The Church was to determine in matter of Law , and the Civil Magistrate after That , to pronounce Sentence , according to That Decision . Briefly , Beza gives the Presbytery the same Power under the Gospel , which was Exercised by the Synagogue under the Law. But now to the Point of your Excommunication ; and to shew you in what manner it is apply'd , to hinder the Execution of Law ; and to obstruct Civil Iustice. By One Clause of your Discipline , You may Abrogate what Laws you please , concerning Ecclesiastical Matters : And by Another ; The Minister is Authorized to handle External things , for Conscience Cause : So that your Authorit●… is without Controul in Ecclesiastical Matters ; and so is your Liberty of handling Civil Matters as Ecclesiastical . Upon which Bottom was founded an Assertion not long since mainteined at the Savoy , i. e. That the Command of a most Lawful Act is sinful , if That Act commanded may prove to any One a Sin per Accidens , Now if the Kirk shall think fit to Abrogate a Law ( as nothing more frequent ) whoever shall presume to Execute That Law , is sure to be Excommunicate : And the Supreme Magistrate himself is no less lyable to Church Censure , for not Executing That Sentence , then the Inferior Magistrate was for his Original Disobedience . The Bishop of St. Andrews ( in 1586 ) was Excommunicate for Advising King Iames to a Declaration against Certein Fugitive Ministers that were denounced Rebels ; and Contriving the Statutes of ( 1584. ) touching The Kings Authority in Ecclesiastical Causes . Knox is for Excommunication in all Crimes , that are Capital by the Law of God ; and in effect , for the Churches Tryal of the very Fact. It was not for nothing that the Two Houses held the Assembly so long in Play , upon this Point ; and in Despight of all Importunities to the Contrary , kept the staffe still in their own Hands ; and reserved to Themselves the Ultimate Appeal , in Cases of Excommunication . Presb , Was it not rather the Work of the Independents ? Who ( to say the Truth ) were as much against any Settlement at all as against That ; And against the very Convening of the Assembly it self . Indep . And they had done the State a good Office , if they had totally hindred it . But this is beside our Business . We have said enough as to the Dangerous Influence of Presbytery , upon the Security of his Majesty and the Law. It remains now to be considered , with a respect to the Rights , and Liberties of the People . SECT . XXX . The Question of Toleration , betwixt Presbytery , and Independency , Debated , with a Regard to the Rights , Liberties , and Advantages of the PEOPLE . Indep . YOU see how it is with Kings , Parliaments , and Laws , under the Dominion of Presbytery . We are now to look into the Condition of the Nobility , Gentry , Commonalty , and of the Presbyterial Clergy it self , under that Discipline : Which will best appear , by a view of the Powers which the Presbytery claims , and Exercises . But let me Commend One Note to you as Previous to that Examination . This Party has constantly screw'd it self into the World , by an Oath of Mutual Defence : Which Oath they apply as well to the Ruine and Extirpation of their Opponents , as to their own Preservation ; by making it a Test of good Affection to That Interest ; and Excluding all People whatsoever from any Office , or Benefit Ecclesiastical , or Civil , without subscribing it . You cannot deny but this Oath in the very Institution of it , is a Violence both upon Law , and Conscience ; and Consequently , that the Imposition falls heaviest upon those that make an Honourable , and Religious Scruple of their Actions . So that here is already exposed the most Considerable part of the Nation , for the Subject of their Displeasure ; with their Lives , Liberties , and Fortunes at Mercy ; as you will find upon a further Consideration of their Usurped Authority , and Iurisdiction . Presb. Leave this way of General Discourse , and come to Particular Instances . Where is it , that you find This Exorbitant Power that you talk of ? Indep . In the very Declaration of the Commission of the General Assembly of Scotland , 1648. page 53. [ The Duties of the Second Table as well as of the First : As namely , the Duties between King , and Subject ; Parents , and Children ; Husbands , and Wives ; Masters , and Servants , and the Like ; being conteined in , and to be taught and cleared from the Word of God , are in That Respect , and so far as concerneth the Point of Conscience , a Subject of Ministerial Doctrine , and in Difficult Cases , a Subject of Cognizance and Iudgment to the Assembly of the Kirk . The Dispute here was about the Assemblies Authority , in the Question of War or Peace . Is not This at one Blow to destroy the Order of all Relations , Political , Natural , and Moral ? Princes must not presume to make War or Peace ; To Enact Laws , or Abrogate ; To Spare or Punish , without Ecclesiastical Licence . The Subject must go to the Masters of the Parish , to know whether , he shall Obey Authority , or Resist it . And after the same manner it fares with Parents , and Children ; Husbands , and Wives ; Masters , and Servants ; So that there is not any Person , either Publique , or Private ; Or any Action , or Office , of Regard to Community , Family , or Alliance , that scapes their Pragmatical Scrutiny , and Inspection . Presb. So far as these Duties are matter of Conscience , there is no Doubt , but they are of Ecclesiastical Cognisance ; and further then so , they make no Pretension . Indep . But you must give me leave to tell you then , that their Consciences are larger then other Peoples . The Old Nonconformist ( as au Expedient for the settling Ecclesiastical Affairs ( Page 43. ) proposes the setting up of Work-Houses for the Poor ; the Carrying on of the Fishing Trade ; The taking off of Protections ; that none may be Imprison'd but according to Law : and the Abatement of Taxes . The Assembly at Glasgow 1638. passed an Act concerning Salmon Fishing , and another about Salt Pans . And all This I Warrant ye , so far as they concerned Point of Conscience . But if you would see , what the Consistory calls Conscience , in the full Extent , we must repair for satisfaction , to their Direction , and Practises in the matter of Conscience , and Excommunication . The Kirk proceeds to Excommunication in all Capital Crimes , where the Offender that deserv'd to dye , is suffer'd to live . And in Cases of Fornication , Drunkenness , Swearing , Cursing , Sab●…ath-Breaking , Wanton Words , Contempt of the Orders of the Church ; Oppression of the Poor ; Deceipt in Buying and Selling , by wrong Mete and Measure . Presb. Well ; and what hurt 's in all this ? Indep . None at all : But let me proceed . They Censure also Excess in Apparel , Meat , or Drink , UNCOMELY GESTURES ; Contentiousnes , without reasonable Cause ; Chiding , Brawling , VAINWORDS ; Every fault that tendeth to the Hurt of a Man's Neighbour , or to the Hindrance of the Glory of God : Whether by Force , or Fraud ; Word , or Deed ; Manifestly , or Secretly ; Purposely , or Ignorantly : And the Judgment of the whole is left to the Discretion of the Church . So that your very Thoughts are not free . [ The Spiritual Ruler ( says the Book of Discipline ) Iudgeth Both Inward Affections , and External Actions in respect of Conscience , by the Word of God. Upon which ground they take upon them to Censure the very SUSPICION of Avarice , and Pride : Superfluity or Riotousness , in Chear or Rayment . But upon Dancers , Robin Hoods , and all Games that brings Loss , they have no mercy . These particulars are extracted to a syllable out of the most Authentical Records they have to shew for the Warrant of the Scottish Discipline - ( Our Blessed Model . ) But many People perchance will make it a matter of nothing to be Excommunicate upon a Supposition that the Anathema is the uttermost spite of the Censure . They never dream of Car●…ings , Iogges , Pillories , Shaving their Beards , and Cutting half the Hair of their Heads . Banishments , Pecuniary Mu●…cts , Close Imprisonments , and all sorts of Studied Defamations . Nay , If any man refuse to Subscribe their Confession of Faith , Rule of Government , and Manner of Worship , He is forthwith Excommunicate ; and upon Remonstrance of a Commissioner from the Presbytery to the Civil Iudg , a Warrant granted , commanding him to Conform by a Day Certein , or to be OUTLAWED . If he Conform not within that time , his ESTATE MOVE ABLE is FORFEITED ; and if not within a Year and a Day , he Loses his whole REVENUE for his Life . After This , at the further Instance of the Churches Commissioner , Out go Letters of Caption , for Apprehending of his Person , and Committing him as a Rebel . And if he be not to be found ; These are follow'd with Letters of Inter-Communing , forbidding all men either Personally to Confer with him , or by Letter , or interposed Person to Correspond with him , upon Pein of the Inter-Communers being Iudged and Reputed a Rebel of the same Guiltiness . As to the General Rule of Excommunication ; no Person ( Wife and Family excepted ) is to have any Communication with the Excommunicate ; be it in Eating or Drinking ; Buying or Selling ; Yea in Saluting or Talking with Him : Unless at Commandment or License of the Ministry for his Conversion . His Children Begotten and Born after That Sentence not to be admitted to Baptism , till of Age to require it ; Unless the Mother or some special Friends , Members of the Kirk , Offer and Present the Child , Damning the Iniquity and Contempt of the Impenitent . There are that do not allow Husbands to accompany with their Wives in the State of Excommuni cation . Now upon what has been deliver'd , Let any Man Consider the Unchristian Rigor of This Disciplinary Inquisition ; not only in the Actual Tyranny of it , but in the more Miserable Consequences . First as it Scandalizes the Gospel , and makes the Death of Christ seem to be no Effect , by Imposing upon Us such Conditions of Salvation , as if the Blessed Angels should descend , and Indue Humane shapes , they were not able to perform . For it is not what Christ and his Apostles say , that will do a Man's business here , without the Urim and Thummim of the Parochial Session , and the Defects of the Written Word , are to be supplyed by Unwritten Traditions out of the Repository of the Presbyterial Cabale . In this Case it is that we are to have recourse to the Apostles Precept ; of Standing fast in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made Us Free , and not to be intangled again in the Yoke of Bondage . ( A Yoke much more intolerable then That of the Law ; ) For the Iews had their Lesson before their Eyes , and knew what they were to do . But here , it matters not what either Scripture or Conscience says , without the subsequent Concurrence of the Presbytery : to whose Supreme , and Infallible Judgment ( and not to our own ) We are to stand or fall either to Heaven , or Hell. The Rigor of this Discipline is m●…st Un-Christian also , as it Crucifies Weak Consciences with Needless , Infinite , and Incurable Scruples ; with Scruples that Haunt , Dog , and Torment us in the most Necessary , and Ordinary Actions of Humane Life . At the Church ; at the Table ; at the Market ; at Home , and Abroad . At all Times , in all Places , and upon all Occasions , in our Words , Thoughts , and Deeds . As to Excess in Eating . It is Censurable either in the Quantity , or in the Quality . So that in the first place the Eldership is to provide One Common Gage for the Stomachs of the whole Parish , for fear of a Mouthful too much . And in the second P●…ace , it is made a matter of Salvation , or Damnation , whether a Man Eats Beef , or Venison . And so , for Excess in APPAREL . One Inch more , then to Cover your shame , is a Sup●…rfluity ; and One Peny more , in the Pound , then the Allowance of the Presbytery , is made as much as a Man's Soul is worth . It is the same thing for VAIN WORDS . A Nurse shall not dare to still her Child but with a Psalm ; and you must not presume so much as to ask What a Clock it is , without a Text ; to prove that the Question tends to Edification . But the hardest Case of all is , That of SUSPICION . The very Suspicion of Avarice , or Pride , You say , makes a Man lyable to Censure . This , methinks , is very severe , for a Man to be delivered over to Sathan , because the Brotherhood Suspects him to be Proud , or Covetous ; whether he be so , or no. Presb. 'T is to be presumed , that the Church will proceed according to a Iudgment of Charity , and Discretion . Indep . Did not the Kirk Excommunicate the whole Multitude for a Robin-Hood ? Nay at St. Iohnstons , they cursed not only the Men , that should take part with the King , but the very Horses , and Spears . ( Here 's an Excommunication by way of Advance ) Upon the Action of Duke Hamilton in 1648. the whole Party were Excommunicate ( even after the Defeat : ( as appears by the Scotch Act for Renewing the Covenant . ) In some Cases again , They are as Tender and Cautelous . Andrew Hunter ( a Prime stickler for the Discipline ) attended Bothwel as his Chaplain , in a Rebellion , 1593. But King Iames could not prevail with the Assembly to Excommunicate Him for it ; ( though no Doubt was made of the Fact ) Nay , on the Contrary , They would not be quiet , till they had got Bothwell's Pardon . And upon Gowry's attempt ( in the Year 1600. ) His Majesty required the Ministers of Edenburgh to give God thanks in their Churches for his Deliverance , and they refused it . But to the Point we were upon . As nothing can be more Contrary to the Temper and Dictate of the Holy Gospel then the Claim of this Arbitrary and Censorious Iurisdiction : It seems to me to stand in an equal Degree of Opposition to the Rules of Society , Humanity , and Reason . The KING is upon his good Behaviour to the Elders , and Deacons ( who are Iudges of others manners ) as well as the Meanest man in the Parish . He is indeed ( as is observ'd by the Author of Presbytery Displayd ) the Chief Member of the General Assembly ; but they allow him no Negative Voice ; and if he has the Fortune to be Out-Voted , he must cause the Sentence to be Executed , whatever it be , under Pein of Censure , and Consequently of Deprivation . Of Acts of Parliament , and Inferiour Magistrates , enough is spoken already . As to the State of the NOBILITY , and GENTRY , they are either Conformists to the Government , or Dissenters ; and must take their Lot in it , to be either Sovereigns , or Slaves : ( for that 's the distribution of it . ) Upon the Mayn These Domini Dominantium Challenge by their Commission to be no Respecters of Persons ; and so lay upon all Sorts , and Conditions of Men in General at their good Pleasure certein Common Impositions , Importing their Servility , and Subjection , and whose Livery they wear . I must not omit one Peculiar Obligation , the Nobility , and Gentry have to these their Gracious Masters : Which is the Easing them of their Patronages , and Presentations to Benefices , because These things fl●…wed from the Pope , and the Corruption of the Canon Law only , and are Contrary to the Word of God , and the Peoples Liberty of Electing their own Ministers . [ For ( say They ) this is altogether to be avoided , that any man be violently Intruded , or Thrust in upon any Congregation . But this Liberty , with all Care , must be reserved to every several Church , to have their Votes , and Suffrages in Election of their Ministers . Observe now , I beseech you , the Peoples Liberty , in this Choice . Violent Intrusion we call it not , when the Counsel of the Church , in the fear of God , and for the salvation of the People , ●…ffereth unto them a sufficient Man , to Instruct them . If his Doctrine be found wholesome , and able to Instruct the Simple , and if the Church justly can reprehend nothing in his Life , Doctrine , nor Ut●…erance , then we judg the Church Unreasonable , if they refuse him , whom the Church did offer ; and they should be compelled by the Censure of the Counsel , and Church , to receive the Person appointed . Here 's Liberty upon Compulsion ; and it is most Palpable , that your whole Design is the Interest of a Party . Now to the men of Ordinary BUSINESS , and TRAFFICK . The Presbytery will put an end to all their Disputes , about Free Trade , Priviledges , and matter of Commerce , with a wet Finger . Did they not by an Act of Assembly at Dundy 1592. Prohibit the Scots Trading with any of the King of Spains Dominions , under Pein of Excommunication ? And his Majesty refusing to comply with them , ( at the Iustance of the Spanish Merchants ) Did they not proceed to Censure the Merchants ? So that there shall be no Trading , but where they please : And no Markets neither but upon their good liking too . Did they not by their Proper Authority Discharge the Munday-Market in Edinburgh ? But the Shoo-makers indeed were too hard for the Elders this bout , and told them plainly , they would turn out all their Ministers by Head and Shoulders first , before they parted with their Market . Upon which Menace they were quiet . The Author of Presbytery Display'd , gives you some Instances of the Presbyteries Interposal , in Actions of Debt , and menacing Landlords , and Creditors , with Excommunication , unless they laid down the Precess : Upon Pretense Forsooth , that though it was in a Civil Cause , it had yet a Spiritual Prospect : Withdrew People from their Callings , and Hindred the Progress of the Gospel . And this is no more , then any man will reasonably Expect , that looks but with half an eye upon the very Frame , and Provision of the Discipline . Is not he a mad man , that thinks to recover a Debt at Common Law , against any Member , or Members Friend of the Presbytery , when ' ●…is but flying to the Canon of the Consistory , to silence the Dispute , and telling Him , that He is Contentious without a Reasonable Cause ? Cannot the Church put an End to Strife among Brethren , as well as the Civil Magistrate ? It is a matter of Evil Example , and tends to the Hurt of our Neighbour . If the Creditor be Obstinate , and will not take good Counsel , Out flyes an Excommunication against Him , for refusing to obey the Orders of the Church . I would now fain understand , what it is that sets so many of the MINISTERS a Gog upon this Platform ; For certeinly , They are of all Mortals the most Contemptible : ( the Iunto , and some few of the Select Ones Excepted . ) Their Discipline Divides the Church Patrimony into four Parts One for the Pa stor ; Another for the Elders , Deacons , and other Kirk-Officers ; their Doctors , and Schools . A Third for Charitable Uses : and the Rest for Repairing of Churches , and other Incidental Charges . So that the Clergy is strip'd already of 3. Parts of 4 of their Legal Maintenance , And then for the poor Pittance that is left ; so much as will keep Life and Soul together , they are allow'd in Meal , and Mault ; and totally dependent upon the Mercy of the Church for the rest . And yet for this pittiful stipend , They are to be call'd to Accompt how they spend it ; and their Wives , and Children , to be thrown at last upon the Charge of the Parish . In their Preaching , they are Limited by the Direction , and Design of their Leaders : Only Tenants at Will in their Cures ; and lyable to be Removed , Suspended , or Deposed at Pleasure . This Arbitrary Dominion , together with the Shameful Condition of their Bondage , has proved so great a Discouragement to the Ministry , that they have found themselves forc'd to Press Ministers into the Service , as they would do Souldiers . And where they find men of Abilities for their Purpose , The Civil Magistrate is call'd upon , to compel them to the Ministry . Nay rather than fail , the Nobility and Gentry must bring up their Children , to the Service , and good Liking of the Kirk , under Pein of Church-Censure . A Jurisdiction exercised according to the Latitude of This Discipline , One would think , might satisfie any Reasonable sort of People . But alas ! If they do not as much Exceed their own Bounds , in their Practise , as they exceed all other Models in their Pretensions , they reckon it as good as nothing . They can Cite People out of a Remote Iurisdiction . Deprive whole Presbyterys for Dissent . ( Kings Declaration , page 314 ) Call Nine Presbyters of Fifty , a General Assembly . ( Spotswood , p. 490. ) Demolish Churches ( 304. ) and Dispose of the Patrimony ( 311. ) and what not ? More needs not be said , as to the Empire They Exercise over King , Lords , and Commons , severally , and in divers Respects : We come now to their Usurpations upon the Common Rights , and Priviledges of Mankind . CHIDING ( as I told you ) they have drawn within the Compass of Ecclesiastical Censure . So that Masters shall not Reprove their Servants , nor Parents their Children ; without leave of the Eldership , ( to the utter Dissolution of the Order and Discipline of Private Families . ) Nay , they have taken in BRAWLING too , and made every Billingsgate Quarrel , every Brabble betwixt a Butter-Whore and an Oysterwench , a Subject of Consistorial Cognizance . Under the Censure of LEWD CUSTOMS are Comprized all sorts of Publique Sports , Exercises , and Recreations , that have been long in Use ; upon the Worshipful Pretense ( forsooth ) that they had their Original from the times of Paganism , or Popery : As Comedies , Interludes , Wrastlings , Foot-Ball-Play , May-Games , Whitson-ales , Morrice-Dances , Bear-baitings ; Nay the Poor Rosemary , and Bayes , and Christmas-Pye , is made an Abomination . Presb. And are not the Independents as much against these Fooleries as the Presbyterians ? Indep . No , we take Our own Freedom , to forbear what we dislike our selves ; and allow other People their Liberty , to Practise what pleases them . But to proceed . All GAMES that bring LOSS are Prohibited , Tennis , Bowles , Billiards ; Not so much as a Game at Stool-Ball for a Tansy , or a Cross and Pyle for the odd Penny of a Reckoning , upon Pein of Damnation . — Shortly , Boys shall not Play At Span-Counter , or Blow-Point , but shall Pay Tell to some Presbyter . — What do you think now of UNCOMELY GESTURES ? That a man shall be given to the Devil , for Lolling upon his Elbow , or set●…ing on his Back-side , in the Presence of the Deacon of the Parish . And the Like for Excess in EATING , or APPAREL . Every Bit we put into our Mouths , and every Rag we put upon our Backs , becomes a Snare to Us. It may be either too much , or too costly : and What Reformation soever the Kirk shall think fit to Order , either in our Clothes , or Dyet , must be observ'd , with the same Degree of Submission , and Obedience , as if the matter in Question were an Article of our Creed . Their Censure of VAIN WORDS is yet more Rigorous , and reaches for ought we know , to the honestest Endearments , and Familiarities of Friendship , and Conversation , even to the Exclusion of Common Decency , and Civility . But let Our Words be what they will , We are still dependent upon the good Pleasure of the Eldership , whether they will pronounce them Vain , or Edifying . But why should a man expect to scape for WORDS , where THOUGHT it self is Censurable ? SUSPICION of Avarice , Pride , &c. ( as you have heard ) He that sues to recover a Debt , shall be suspected of Avarice . He that refuses to Crouch like the Asse under the Burthen , shall be suspected of Pride . And for a Man and a Woman to be only seen together , shall be ground enough for a suspicion of Incontinency . Nay , they shall be Cited , Interrogated , Close-Committed , and put to Bread and Water upon it ; and compell'd to Swear in Propriam Turpitudinem . After all This , and that no Proof appears , and that they purge themselves upon Oath : It shall be yet Enacted by the Assembly , that if ever These two shall be seen again in Company together , unless at Church , or Market , they shall be taken pro Confesso for Guilty . A whole Volume ( says the Author of Presbytery Display'd ) might be written of Young Women by these Courses , disgraced , and Defamed : Of many Families divided , and scatter'd ; whereas before there was never any jealousie betwixt the Man and the Wife . Presb. These are Objections rather of Passion , and Extravagance , then of Argument . Indep . They are no other then such Conclusions , as the Premisses will very well bear . Presb. I have heard indeed of several Wild , and sensless Scruples charg'd upon the Independents : As that they have made it a matter of Religion to Piss abed , and ride Hobby-Horses , because it is said , Except ye become as little Children , ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , Matth. 18. 3. Indep . Pray give me leave to requite You with three or four Presbyterian Scruples : out of Bancrofts Survey of the Pretended Holy Discipline , page 368. Move Mr. Cartwright , and some other Our Reverend Brethren to deliver their Iudgments , Whether all laying out of Hair be forbidden to all Women : especicially at their Repair to the Publick Meetings of the Church ? A Question riseth in my Mind , Whether one that Professeth Christ truly , may , according to the same Profession , delight in , and use Hawking , and Hun●…ing ; so no Unchristian Behaviour otherwise be joyned therewith . Let me know your Iudgment particularly : Whether it be in any respect tolerable for Women , that profess Religion , and the Reformation , to Wear Dublets , Little Hats with ●…eathers : great Gowns after the French , and Outlandish Fashion : Great Ruffes , and Hair , either Cu●…led , or Frisled , or set out upon Wires , and such like Devices . I would be glad to have your Iudgment in the Fourth Commandment : Whether the strict Prohibition of not kindling Fire on the Sabbath , be of the Substance of the Moral Precept . In the same Author you will find a Catalogue of Pleasant Names too . The Lord is Near. More Tryal . Reformation . Discipline . Ioy again . Sufficient . From above . Free Gifts . More Fruit. Dust. And in the next Page , he tells you of one Snape that proceeded toward the Baptizing of a Child , till they came to Name it , Richard , and then brake off , for fear it would not have prov'd a Christian , if he had so Baptized it . I cannot pass from these Phantastical Absurdities in your Practises , without some Reflection upon those in your Constitution , To say nothing of your Disagreements among your selves , about your Officers , and Discipline . What can be more Ridiculous than to Authorize a Cobler to Correct Majesty , Mechanicks to Determine in Points of Faith ? Are not your Elders joyn'd in Commission with your Ministers , for the Examination of the Person that offers himself to the Ministry , in all the Chief Points in Controvorsie betwixt us and the Papists , Anabaptists , Arrians , & c ? Are not the Elders , and Deacons fit Persons ( think ye ) to be made Iudges of Theological Niceties ; and to Admonish , and Reprove a Minister , that Propones not faithful Doctrine ? Has not your General Assembly , rather the Face of a Council of State , then of a Counsel of the Church ? ( And in Truth the Business too . ) Behold the Composition ( I beseech ye ) of the Pretended Assembly at Glasgow , 1638. Seven Earls , Ten Lords , Forty Gentlemen , And One and Fifty Burgesses , to Determine of Faith , and Church Censures . Now to take a Brief View of the whole . What greater Slavery in the world , can be imagined , then to live in Subjection to a Government ; where you shall have , neither Freedom of Conscience , Law , Person , or Fortune ? Where you shall not Speak , Look , Move , Eat , Drink , Dress your self ; Nay , not so much as entertein a Thought , but at your Peril ? And to be in This Bondage too unto the Meanest , and most Insolent of your Fellows ? For none but such will ever engage themselves in the Exercise of so Inhumane a Tyranny . And for a further Aggravation of the Shame , and Guilt of the Faction : Let me desire you , but to cast an eye upon their Proceedings , under King Iames in Scotland , and here under Queen Elizabeth ; where you shall find that they were never so Impetuous , and Bold , as when they found the King , and the State in Distress , upon the Apprehension of Forreign Dangers . And so for the Queen , upon the business of Eighty Eight : Whereas the Independents never so confined themselves to the Prosecution of their Private Interests , as to Hazard the Betraying of their Countrey to Forreigners : And particularly , in the Late Engagements at Sea , against the French , and Dutch , many of them have given Signal Testimony , and Proof of their Fidelity , and Valour . I should not have Engross'd This whole Discourse to my self , but in Persuance of a Point , wherein you have Confest before-hand , that you had nothing further to oppose : That is to say , Concerning the Principles of the Parties in Question . Neither is any thing I have hitherto deliver'd , to be taken as a Challenge , and Claim of a Toleration , of such a Quality , as to enter into a Competition with the Peace and Security , of the Publique : But This I pr●…mise my self , that if it shall appear reasonable to Authority , to allow of any Relaxation , The Independents Plea , upon all Considerations of Common Equity , and Safety , will stand good against That of the Presbyterians , From whose Triple-Crown'd Consistory ; that Lords it Over Souls , Bodies , and Estates ; Over Kings , Nobles , and Commons ; Over Laws , Magistrates , and all Sorts , and Ranks of Men , and Interests ; That turns Gospel into Law ; Communities into Deserts ; Men into Beasts ; GOOD LORD DELIVER US . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A47928-e2140 a Amesius de Consci . b Indulg . & Toler . p. 13. c Liberty of Conscience upon its true and proper Grounds , p 3. d Free Disputation , p. 3. Indulg . & Toler . p. 13. Rom. 2. 14. Laud against Fisher , p. 197. Rom. 7. 7. Rom. 4. 15. Rom. 5. 13. 1 Tim. 1. 13. Indulg . & Toler . p. 13 , 14. Mat. 5. 5. Luke 19. 27. * In his Book of the Covenant . Mat. 24. Sleydan's Comment . l. 4. Davila delle Guer. Civ . di Fran. l. 10. Ibid. Lib. 14. Strada de Bello Belgieo , l. 5. Liberty of Consc. upon its true and proper Grounds , p. 12. Disc. of Relig. Preface . Institur . de Libertate Christiana . 1 Joh. 4. 3. ●…5 . Lib. of Consc. p. 37. Lib. of Consc. p. 38. Li●… . of Consc. p. 24. Lib. of Consc. p. 13 , 14. Lib. of Consc. p. 27. Lib. of Consc. p. 56. Ex. Coll. p. 2. 3. a Ex. Coll. p 84. b p. 339. c p. 609. d p. 764. e p 392. Ex. Coll. p. 533. p. 494. Spotswood . Hist. Scotl. p. 487. Ibid. p 479 Mr. Baxter's Holy Common-wealth . Printed 1659. Robert Douglass his Serm. Preach't at Scoone , Ian. 1. 1651. Printed 1660. I. Goodwin's Anti-Cavalerism . The Observator . Right and Might well met , Anno 1648. Parliament , Physick . Ahab's Fall. Interest of England in the matter of Religion . 1660. The Peoples Cause stated . An. 1662. Lex Rex . An. 1644. Ius Populi 1644. Declarat . touching the 4 Bills March 13. 1647. Vi●…dicia contra Tyrannos . Printed 1648. Tenure of Kings . 1649. Goodwin's Defence of the King's Sentence . Mr. Baxter's Holy Common-wealth . Tenure of Kings . 1649. A Survey of the Grand Case . Printed 1663. Mr. Baxter's Holy Common-wealth . Mr. Faircloth before the Commons . Mr. Sympson . Scripture and Reason for Defensive Arms. 1643. English 〈◊〉 ●…he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●…nce of ●…'s ●…ce . 〈◊〉 Good●… . 〈◊〉 Poli●… of P. in●… . Lex Rex . Mr. War'●… Analysis of the Covenant . English Translation . Lex Rex . De Monarchin Absolutâ . Mr. Cary●… at Taking the Covenant . 1643. The Phaenix . E. C. Marshall's Sacred Panegy●…ique . Mr. Case before the Commons . 1644. Mr. Cala●…'s sp●…ech at Guild-hall . 1643. Mr. Cala●…y's N●…bleman's P●… 1643. Mr. Herle before the House of Lords . 1643. Mr. Strickland on a Thanksgiving . 1644. M. Bridges ▪ on Revel . 4. 8. Ex. Coll. p. 150. An. 1642. Lex R●…x . Ibid. Right and Might . Ex. Coll. Pa 2. Ibid. I●…d . Scobell Act●… . &c. a Part 2. p. 3. b P. 7. c P. 51. d P. 65. e P. 178. f P. 293. a Scobell Acts , &c. p. 41. b P. 60. c P. 73. d P. 75. e P. 128. f P. 8. Pat 2. g P. 149. h P. 153. i P. 400. k P. 42. l P. 53. m P. 75. n P. 99. o P. 101. p P. 128. q Part 2. P. 16. Disc. of Relig. Title pag. Ex. Coll. p. 135. Disc. of Relig. Par. 1. p. 28. Disc. of Relig. Par. 1. p. 38. Disc. of Relig. Par. 2. p. 22. D●…sc . of Relig. Par. 2. p. 45. Disc. of Relig Par. 2. p. 45. Disc. of Relig. Par. 2. p. 38. Ibid. a Disc. of Relig. Pars 2. b Peace Offering . c Indulg . & Toler . d Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. e Peace Offering . f Indul. & Toler . Disc of R●…lig . Pars 2. Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. Ibid. Disc. of Relig. Pa●…s 1. Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. De Conscientiâ , lib. 〈◊〉 4. cap. 15. Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. * Indulg . & Toler . p. 7. Sp●…swoods Hist. Scotl. p 320 , 322. Petition to the Queen , p. 15. Gilby . King 's large Declar . p. 66. Ex. Coll. 〈◊〉 p. 498. a Two Papers of Proposals , pa. 5. b Petition for Peace , p. 20. c D●…sc . of Relig. Preface . Ex. Col. 19. Disc. of Relig. Indulg . & Toler . p. 31. Ex. Coll. Pa 3. Ibid. 21. In●…ulg . & Tolr . Disc. of Relig. S●…otswoods H●…st . Scotl. P. 327. a Petition to her Majesty , p. 25. b Second Admon●… . p. 37. Ibid. p. 25. First Admonit . p. 2. Second Admonit . P 59. Ex. C●…ll . P. 3. Indulg . & Tolerat . Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. Large Declaration , P. 53. Ibid. p , 41 , 42. Ibid. p. 52. Ex Coll. p. 8. Ibid. p 9. Matth. 23. v. 23 , 24. Disc. of Relig. Acts 5. 38. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 207. London Ministers Letter to the Assembly , Ian. 1 ▪ 1645. Harmony of the Lancashire Ministers . p. 12. Mr. Faircloth , on Iosh. 7. 2●… . Rutherford's Free Disp. p. 360. Bayly's Dissw●…sive Epist Ded. 1645. Sion-house to the Assembly , 1645. Anti-Toleration , p. 16. ☞ The Ki●…ks Testimony against Toleration p. 10. Acts and Ordinances , Part 1. p 97. Ibid. 165. Ibid. 171. Pa. 30 , 31. ☞ Petition for Peace , p. 4. 1661 , Mr. Calamy , Of the Ark , p. 21. a Scob. Acts , Pars 1. p 37. b P. 135. c Pars 2. p. 10. d P. 175. e P. 372. Disc. of Relig. Pars 1. Liberty of Consc. p. 58. Disc. of Relig Par. 1. p. 40. Dise . of Relig. Par. 1. p. 41. Indulg . & Toler . p. 24 Liberty of Consc. p. ●…8 . 〈◊〉 . Liberty of Conscience , p. 58. Cambden ' s Eliz. 1591. Cambden ' s Eliz. 1591. Ibid. D●…sc . of Relig. Par. 1. p. 24. Ann●… 1577 King 's large Dec. p. 73. Large Declar . p. 77. Ib. p. 137. * The Liturgy . Ex. Coll. p. 604. P. 13. Apol. Conf. p. 137. De Reform . advers . Eccles . p. 95. Beza cont . Sarav . p. 116. View of the Government , p. 5. Ibid. p. 6. Ibid. p. 122. Ibid. p. 125 Ibid. 138. Ibid. 140. Ibid. 146. Ibid. 118. Petition for Peace , p. 5. The Old Non-Con formist , p. 21. Cap 27. Cap. 15. Art. 32. Art. 32. Art. 15. Art. 20. Cap. 14. View of the Government , p. 5. Ibid. p. 24. 25. Ep. Bullingero , fol. 98 Baxter's Five Disputations , disp . 5. cap. 2. sect . 40. View of the Government , p. 41. View of the Gover. p. 63. Ibid. p. 73. Ibid. p. 90. Ibid. p. 92. Ibid. 64. Ib. 69 , 72. * Scripta Anglican . p. 455. Hooker's Eccles. Pol. Preface . Two Papers of Proposals , p. 7 , 8. Institut . lib. 4. ca. 9. sect . 14. Spotswoods Hist. Scotl. p. 540. Mr. Durells View of the Government , p. 173. The late Kingslarge Declarat . p. 75. Calv. Inst. li. 3. ca. 19. sect . 15. Ibid. lib 4. ca. 10. sect . 27. Petit. for Peace , p. 79. Hooker's Eccl. Pol. li. 2. sect . 8. Ibid. Ibid. Calv. Inst. ca. 9. sect . 7 Tryal of the Engl. Liturgy . p. 4. Ibid. p. 5. Page 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 127. Proposals to His Majesty , p. 22. Ibid. p. 23. a Rom. 2. 22. b By the Familists . c By the Antinomians . Chillingworths Safe Way . p. 57 Rom. 7. 23. Chillingworth's Safe way , &c. p. 104. a Rut●…erford's Due Right of Presbyt . p. 356. b Ibid. p. 352. c Ibid. p. 407. d Ibid. p. 415. Rutherf . Free Disp. p. 36. Ibid. p. 27. Scobel's Acts , Part 1. p. 340. Essay of Atheism . Psalm 73. v. 12. Essay of Unity of Religion . Numb . 24 16. Numb . 16. 1. Vers. 3. Verse 32. Verse 35. Verse 41. Verse 49. Disc. of Relig. p 25 Chillingworth's Safe way , &c. p. 186. Rom. 10. 8 Notes for div A47928-e98230 Ex. Coll. p. 737. Ex Coll. p. 532. Interest of Engl. p. 44. Ex. Coll. p. 307. Scobel's Acts , Part 2. pa. 7. Answer to the Vote of Sept. 24. 1646. ☞ ☞ Ibid. p. 60. Old Non-Conf . p. 41. Petit. for Peace , p. 20. Par. 1. p. 6. Gangraena Part 3. p. 282. Ibid. 303. ☞ Rutherf . Free Disp. p. 267. Gangraena , p. 293. Free Disp. p. 98. Cotton's Way , p. 11. Burton's Vind. p. 18 Disc of Relig. Part 1. p 3. Ibid. p. 4. Scotch Discipline , p. 59. Ibid. p. 78. P. 79. Hist. of Reform . Printed 1644. p. 195. Spotsw . Hist. p. 418 Ibid. p. 431. ☞ Spotsw . Hist. pa. 343. Ibid. 367. Ibid. 419 : Ibid. 423 Ibid. 430. Ibid. 322. Ibid. 330. a Ibid. 324. b 398. c 419. d 405. e 334. f 354. King 's large Declaration , p. 415. a Ibid. 87. b 98. c Pag. 416. Scotch Discipline p. 79. Ibid. p. 79. Ibid. p 97. Ibid. p. 91. Ibid. 61. Ibid. 44. ad . Book of Disc. p. 92. 2d . Book of Disc. p. 〈◊〉 . S●…tsw . Hist. p. 418. Ib. p. 398 Kings large Declaration , p. 416. Declar. of the Commission . p 55. and 56. Spotsw Hist. p. 345. Page . 79. Presbytery Display'd . p. 4. Ibid. p 39. Book of Discipline . p. 56. Ibid. p 57. Spotsw . Hist. p. 436. Unchristian Rigor . Excess in Eating censurable . Apparel . Vain words . Suspicion of Pride . Spotsw . History . p. 395. Ibid. 460. Book of Discipline . p. 61 Bo●…k of Discipl . p. 97. Book of Discipl . p. 29. Ibid. p. 29. Spotsw . Hist. p●… . 393. Ibid. 394. P. 10. Book of Disc. p. 98. Book of Discipl . p. 34. Ibid. 61. Ibid. P. 35 Ibid. p. 32. Ibid. p. 44. Presb. Display'd . p. 9. Pig to Field , 1586. Ed. Brow. to Field . Walker to Field . Cholm to Field . Dangerous Positions , p. 104. Book of Discipl . p. 28. Ibid. 60. Kings large Declaration , p. 315. ☞