A short examination of A Discourse concerning edification, by Dr. Hascard where it is inquired, how well the author of the said discourse hath proved that it is not lawful for a man to go from his parish church to meetings, that he might be better edifie [sic] / in a letter to a friend. Hody, Humphrey, 1659-1707. 1700 Approx. 51 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 15 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A44093 Wing H2345 ESTC R29483 11150864 ocm 11150864 46434 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A44093) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 46434) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1424:23) A short examination of A Discourse concerning edification, by Dr. Hascard where it is inquired, how well the author of the said discourse hath proved that it is not lawful for a man to go from his parish church to meetings, that he might be better edifie [sic] / in a letter to a friend. Hody, Humphrey, 1659-1707. [2], 26 p. Printed and are to be sold by A. Baldwin, London : 1700. Attributed by Wing to Humphry Hody. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Hascard, Gregory. -- A discourse about edification. Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2003-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-01 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-02 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-02 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A SHORT EXAMINATION OF A Discourse CONCERNING EDIFICATION . By Dr. HASCARD . Where it is inquired , how well the Author of the said Discourse hath proved , That it is not lawful for a Man to go from his Parish Church to Meetings , that he might better Edifie . In a Letter to a Friend . 2 Cor. 12. 9. But we do all Things ( Dearly Beloved ! ) for your Edifying . LONDON , Printed : And are to be Sold by A. Baldwin , near the Oxford-Arms Inn , in Warwick-Lane . 1700. Advertisement , THere is lately Published , A Letter of Advice to the Churches of the Nonconformists in the English Nation : Endeavouring their Satisfaction in that Point , Who are the True Church of England ? Short Animadversions upon Dr. Calamy 's Discourse ( in the Conformists Cases against Dissenters ) concerning a scrupulous Conscience . An Answer to Dr. Scot's Cases against Dissenters , concerning Forms of Prayer . And the Fallacy of the Story of Commin plainly Discovered . A SHORT EXAMINATION OF A Discourse CONCERNING EDIFICATION . Honoured Sir , I Have received your exceeding Civil Letter , with the Discourse that you favoured me to send along with it , which was doubly acceptable to me . First , As a New Book , few of which come to us ( living at such a Distance from your Metropolis . ) Secondly , With respect to the Argument of it . A Discourse concerning Edification , must be acceptable to every one who knoweth it to be his Duty , 2 Pet. 3. 18. To grow in Grace , and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Which is in English Edification . You desire my Thoughts concerning it , which I shall freely give you . Whether it is lawful for any Man to forsake the Communion of the Church of England , and to go to the seperate Meetings , because he can better Edifie there . This he saith is Unlawful , and to make it plain , he saith Two Things must be first considered . 1. What sort of Person this is that asketh this Question . 2. What he meaneth by Edification . As to the First , He supposeth the Person , not to Judge any Thing unlawful in the Communion . This Sir will make his Question to concern very few ( not one of an Hundred amongst Dissenters . ) By Edification , he means , he saith , An Improvement of his spiritual Condition in the full Latitude of it . These are Words large enough , comprehending Knowledge in the Understanding , Faith and Obedience respecting the Will , and Warmth , or Zeal , in the Affections , we agree that Edification indeed is nothing else . The Apostle calls us Gods Temple , his Building ; and Edification signifies nothing else , but a building up in Christ , in Faith , and Love , in Zeal and H●●iness ; and is the same Thing with what St. John calls the Souls prospering , 1 John 3. 1. An increasing with the Increase of God , Col. 2. 19. ( Sir ) I cannot understand , how it should be unlawful for a Man to do any Thing for this End ; for his Soul can never prosper , nor increase , nor grow by any sinful Act without doubt : I do conceive therefore , the Author hath mistaken his Question , which should have been of what is lawful to do , not for better edifying , but upon pretence of it ; for there is no doubt , but any Thing is lawful for better edifying , God can be by nothing more glorified , nor can any Thing more tend to the saving of our own Souls ( which are the two great Ends of a Christian. ) But Sir , to State this one Question , he hath begged two others . 1. That Dissenters Meetings are Separate Meetings . Suppose Sir , People meet together in the Church of St. Andrews in Holborn , and another Congregation meet at St. Giles in the Fields , a Third in Cheapside , and that none of these People ever go to any but their own Church , are they therefore Separate Meetings , when they all hear the same Scriptures Read , Sing the same Psalms , hear the same Doctrine ( though in other Words ) and Worship God by the same Acts of Worship , Prayer , Praise , Preaching and Hearing , Administring and Receiving the same Sacraments ; how are they Separate Meetings ? Did ever any call the Dutch , and French Churches meeting oft-times in the Parish of Broad-street , Separate Meetings , because they go not to hear the Minister in Broadstreet ? 2. He also assumes , That they forsake the Communion of the Church of England ; how doth that appear , many of them oft-times come to the Parish Churches , and join with the Congregation in Prayer , Praise , Hearing , Receiving the Sacrament , those that do not , yet holding the same Faith , and performing the same Specifical , though not the same Numerical Acts of Worship , that the Parochial Churches do ; do no more forsake the Communion of the Church of England , than the Parishioners of St. Andrews Holborn forsake the Communion of the Church of England , because they never are at Bow-Church , or that at Ludgate . But ( Sir ) we will for once admit , that the Meetings the People go to are Separate Meetings . 2. That they wholly for sake the Church of England , yet if they do it , because they can edisie there better , I do think it not lawful only , but necessary also ; for that Man doth not believe there is a God , or doth not know he hath a Soul ; or doth not know his Chief End is to Glorifie God , and that his Souls Interest is his most valuable Interest , that doth not believe he may Separate from any particular Church , that he may better edifie elsewhere . I must confess Sir , when I read the Question , as it is stated by the Author , I was quite startled at his Negative Determination of it , and very desirous to see the Arguments by which he could prove it . But when I came to consider them , p. 2. I was satisfied ; for his first Reason is , Because there is no better Edification to be had in the Separate Meetings , than in the Communion of the Church of England . This he proveth , 1. Because Her Articles of Faith are those which our Dissenters themselves allow : Upon this he enlargeth , Page 3 , 4. 2. Because she laies a necessity upon a good Life , p. 4 , 5. 3. Because she is fitly constituted to excite Devotion , p. 7 , 8. 4. Because she hath an excellent Order , and Discipline , p. 8 , 9. But Sir , all this will not do , nor will prove more than half a Reason . But Page 10. He adds , This Constitution is used , and managed in the best way by the Pastors of our Church to edifie the Souls of Men. This he proves . 1. Because the Pastors of our Church have strict Commands laid upon them so to do , p. 11. 2. That these commands are obeyed by the Pastors of our Church , and they do all things in it to Edification , p. 11 , 12. Before I come to speak to this distinctly , &c. we must consider , What Communion it is with the Church of England , which is required ; and for the withdrawing of which Dissenters are stigmatized with the unintelligible Names of Schismaticks and Separatists . Is it for their not agreeing with the Doctrines of Faith expressed in the Thirty Nine Articles ? Or because the Doctrine of our Church presseth a Necessity of an Holy Life in Order to Salvation ? Or because she is fully constituted for Devotion ? &c. There is nothing less true . Do they Separate so as they will have no Communion with any of the Ministers of the Church of England , in Praying or Hearing , &c Neither is any thing of that true , as to Multitudes of 〈◊〉 ? But the Communion required , Is a Communion with the Parish Minister in all Ordinances ; if they will not , they are counted Schismaticks and Fanaticks . So that admit all he saith to be true , as to the sirst Head , yet if every Parish Minister doth not Pray , Preach , administer Sacraments , manage his Pastoral Charge , &c. to the best Edification , his Argument holds no more , than if one should argue , that because a Carpenter lives in a Parish , hath admirable Timber laid by him , therefore I am bound to use him and no other , to build my House , whether he knows how to use it yea or no , yea though I plainly see he doth not . 2. Again Sir , they that know any thing of Souls , know that though they be equal , as to their Faculties yet they are not so as to their improved Capacities and Abilities ; one Minister may be the fittest to improve me in Knowledge , Faith , Love , &c. that is the most unfit Man in the World to improve another , the Apostle hath taught us , that some need Milk , others strong Meat . A Learned Man may be the fittest to improve another Mans Soul in Knowledge ( which by the way is the Foundation of Faith , Love , Obedience , orderly Zeal ) who is as Learned as himself , that may be the most unfit to improve a poor Countrey Mans Soul , that cannot apprehend his Depth of Reasoning , nor his Latinized Stile , ●or his Concealed Method , nor is able to carry away Three Lines of his Discourse . So as this Author hath a very hard Task to prove ; viz. That every Parish Minister , obeyeth the commands of the Church , and doeth a● things in Prayer , Preaching , &c. to the Edification of all the Parishioners . But Sir , I shall not prejud●●e him , this is only to tell you , what we must expect from the Author , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to prove his great Undertaking , this being Premise● , let me now go back to his Third and Fourth Page . 1. I said Sir before , that we own all the Doctrines of Faith , contained in our Creed and Thirty Nine Articles ; we grant them Short and Plain , but that they are so fully explained , that nothing can be done further , to make them intelligible to the meanest Souls . I cannot say , if you look Sir into the Systeme of Confessions , you will scarce find any so short as ours is . The People had need have a very able , and painful Minister , that shall improve sufficiently in Knowledge by them . 2. We like very well Sir , of what our Church determineth , as to Good Works in the Eleventh , and Twelfth , and Thirteenth of Her Articles of the Thirty Nine , in these Words , ART . 11. We are accounted Righteous before God , only for the Merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith , and not for our own Works and Deservings . Wherefore , that we are justified by Faith only , is a most wholesome Doctrine and very full of Comfort , as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification . ART . 12. Albeit good Works , which are the Fruits of Faith cannot put away our Sins , and indure the Severity of Gods Judgments , yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ , and do spring out necessarily of a true , lively , Faith , insomuch that by them , a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a Tree discerned by the Fruit. ART . 13. Works done before the Grace of Christ , and the Inspiration of his Spirit , are not pleasant to God , for as much as they spring not of Faith in Jesus Christ , neither do they make Men meet to receive Grace , or ( as the School-Authors say ) deserve Grace of Congruity . Yea rather , for that they are not done , as God willed , and commanded them to be done , we doubt not but they have the Nature of Sin. Sir , I think it not worth my Time , to examine how well what the Author saith , p. 4 , 5 , 6. agrees with this , here is not a word of Vertue , but the Grace of Christ , and the Inspiration of the Spirit ; and what makes some Men so fond to change the old Term of Grace into the newer Term of Vertue ( hardly Four Times mention'd by the Apostles ) I cannot tell , unless it be to let us know , they mean no other Things by good Works , but such Things as may be done by common Graces . In the Articles is not a Word of Good Works being the Soul of our Faith , the Articles say , they are only the Daughters , and inseparable Fruit of our Faith ; and calls none Good , done before the Grace of Christ , and Inspiration of the Spirit . But Sir , we do agree , that our Articles speak our Hearts as to good Works , and we hope we may withdraw from such as teach otherwise than these Articles , and yet hold Communion with the Church of England ; because such Sons have themselves no Communion with Her in that Matter . 3. Neither do we say , but that our Church is constituted fitly enough to excite Devotion . Nor shall I say here any Thing about Her Order , and Discipline ; because all that is said under this Head signifies nothing , if the Second Thing be not made Good , viz. That this Constitution is used , and managed in the best way by the Pastors of our Church to edifie the Souls of Men. For Sir , you will easily understand , that the building of a Soul in Knowledge , Faith , Love , Zeal , doth not so much depend upon the Articles of a Church , its Rubricks or Rules for Worship and Canons , as the Gifts which God hath given his Ministers , by which they press the Doctrines of Faith , and Rules of Holy Life contained in the Scripture , and pour out Prayers for People suited to all their Necessities ; their diligent and constant Practice in instructing People , and their putting in Execution such Rules as are given for the ordering of People in their Church S●●●eties ; neither will what the Author saith , p 11. make good his Proposition . That there are strict Commands under great Penalties laid upon the Pastors of our Church to do this . What of all this . So that all lies upon his Second Particular , p. 11. That all these Commands are obeyed by the Pastors of our Church , and they do all Things to such Edification , he should have added what was in his Proposition , p. 2. That there is no better in the Separate Meetings , than in the Communion of the Church of England . So that Sir , if you observe , he must prove , 1. That every Parish Minister preacheth as diligently , and profitably ; for the generality of his Hearers Improvement in the Knowledge of God , in Faith , Love , Holiness , Zeal , &c. as the Ministers do in their Meetings . Or else Sir , he concludes no more than this . That it is not lawful for meer Edification-sake , for any Parishioners to Separate from the Communion with his Parish Minister , if he doth Preach as soundly , intelligibly , and profitably , for Peoples remembrance in Order to their Knowledge , Faith , Love , Holiness , Zeal , as Ministers do in Private Meetings . Indeed Sir , I am of his Mind , for I am for a nearness of Members of the same Church in Cohabitation , where it can be , without a Prejudice to Edification ; but if Christians cannot ordinarily communicate in all Ordinances with their Parish Ministers , and be equally instructed in the Truths of God , or Hear what they understand , or in such Methods as they can remember or so confirm'd in Scripture , that they can search the Scriptures and find , that Truth which they say , or cannot hear the whole Counsel of God , or be warmly pressed by Arguments to a truly , holy Life in all Conversation , as they can at another Meeting . I think it is worth their while , and no Sin against God to go where they may . The saving and edifying Souls is of more Consequence than keeping the Limits of Parishes . Now as to this Sir , It is matter of Demonstration , that every one must judge for himself ; for who preacheth most profitably for one , must be determined of by him who knows the Capacity of the Hearer , which I am sure none doth but himself ; we need not judge of the Learning and Abilities of any Person . For he that preacheth most learnedly , usually preacheth least to the Capacity of three Parts of his Hearers ; and to a Learned Auditory , the plain Preacher preacheth most unprofitably as to his Improvement in Knowledge . I remember Sir , a Story out of Chrysostome , who tells us , that he heard a Christian and an Heathen disputing ridiculously . The Matter in debate was , whether Paul or Plato was the best Schollar . The Christian maintain'd Paul was , the Heathen maintained Plato was . Thus saith Chrysostom , The Christian stood to prove what was the Pagans Part , and the Pagan undertook to prove the Christians Part , For the Christian might have said , if Plato were the best Schollar , it is no wonder he had more Disciples then Paul , and the Heathen might have said , if Paul were so much the best Schollar , it is no wonder he made the Gospel abound so far . The Excellency of a Preacher , or his fitness to edifie Souls , is not to be determined from his Learning , but from his Pains , and Diligence , and Eye to the End of his Work , as to those People ( or the generality of them ) to whom he preacheth and his wise accommodating Means fit for his End. This requireth the Knowledge of the Circumstances of the generality of his Auditory , and none but the particular Person can judge of him , who preacheth most to his particular Edification , plain Scriptural , practical Preaching is undoubtedly for most general Edification ; because Nine Parts of Ten of the most Auditories are unlearned , and understand not rational Deductions unless made easie , nor Scholastical Niceties , or Criticisms , and for those few that can , they are more edified by them in their Head , than in their Heart ; but he that preacheth solidly , plainly , scripturally , and practically , may edifie the best Hearers in their Faith , Love , and Obedience , and Zeal , which is the best Edification ; for Men may have a great deal of Notion , and yet perish eternally . Sir , That there is generally in our Parish-Churches , more solid , plain , scriptural , and practical Preaching , fitted for the Capacity and Remembrance of the generality of Men and Women that come to hear , than there is in the Nonconformists Meetings , will not easily be allowed by any that commonly heareth both . Let , Sir , Men be never so learned , if in popular Discourses , where they are speaking to Five hundred Men , will speak to Five ; that is , to the Understanding of a very few : I do not believe , but the rest may go away and hear such as they understand better , and remember what they say . But there need no more words in this Case , it is most apparent , that he must know another very well , that can know what Discourse will edifie him best , and that no Body can possibly understand , or judge that , but himself ; so as this Argument is at its length . Sir , he cometh p. 13. to what he calls his Second Argument to prove this Proposition , p. 2. That it is unlawsul for any Men to forsake the Communion of the Church of England , and go to the separate Meetings , because he can better edifie there . Because that those who usually make this pretence for Separation , do commonly mistake better Edification . This is , Sir , a way of Reasoning , which I cannot understand . I cannot imagine how any Person should ever be able to prove , that a Man may not go to another Church that he may better edifie . Because some , or many mistake the nature of Edification , doth it follow , Sir , that because some mistake it , therefore none knoweth it , or none can know it , or none that truly know the Nature of it may pursue it ? But really Sir , the Author of that Discourse seemeth to know it so well , that I think we may all take his own Notion of it , and agree with him , p. 2. That it is an improvement of our spiritual Condition in its full latitude . Let us build a little , Sir , upon so good a Foundation . The Edification of a Soul , Sir , is , as a noble , so a very large Building , and comprehends an increase in Faith , Love , Obedience to the Will of God , with an increase in holy Affections , &c. The Foundation of this large Building must be Knowledge , a knowledge of the Will of God revealed in Scripture , both as to things to be believed , and to be done . Hence the wise Man , Prov. 19. 2. tells us , That the Soul should be without knowledge , is not good . The Apostle saith , Rom. 20. 14. How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed ? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? And Col. 3. 10. he tells us , The new Man is renewed in knowledge . And 1 Col. 9. the Apostle prayeth , That Men may be filled with the knowledge of the Will of God in all Wisdom , and spiritual Understanding . And this to that end , that they may walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing , being fruitful in every good work , and increasing in the knowledge of God. And we are commanded in 2 Pet. 3. 18. to grow in Grace , and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. How , Sir , Men should mistake an increase in knowledge , ( which is the first Stone in this Spiritual Building ) for an healing of Fancy , and a stirring of Humours , I leave to you , Sir , to judge : It is as bad a Mistake as that of an Apple for an Oyster . In his thirteenth Page he seemeth to think , that the Duty of keeping an ordinary Communion with the Parish-Minister , ( for that , or nothing , he must mean by his Phrase of our Church-Communion ) is a plainer and greater Duty , than attending our Edification , because he thinks that is disputable , doubtful , &c. Of this , Sir , I hope he shall never perswade me , nor you , until he hath perswaded us , that it is better for us to keep to a piece of Civil Order , than to look after the Salvation of our own Souls ; and if this were true , an easie exchange might be made for a Soul. In his 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , he hints us of three Mistakes Men may have as to Edification . 1 : When they take nice and speculative Notions , for great edifying Truths : Such as conjectural Notions about the Situation of Paradise of old , or Hell now ; or about the Length of the Sword that guarded Paradise ; or how the Spirits above spend their time , of Behemo● , Wranglings of the Schools , &c. To make this Business short , Sir , Go to your Parish-Church a-while , and to the next Meeting as long , and let this be the Test ; conclude , that where you hear most of these Discourses , there your Soul is least edified . What this Author saith here , is a great Truth , where there is most of these Disquisitions , there is least Edification . 2. A second Mistake he thinks is , When Men take the Opinions of Parties , for undoubted Truths , essential to Salvation . What here the Author means , I cannot imagine : Certainly there is no Truth necessary to Salvation , but what is the Opinion of some Party or other . If no Truth be necessary to Salvation , but what is agreed by all Parties , I am afraid we shall find nothing at all necessary , or very little . Possibly the Doctrine of the Trinity ( if we shut out the Socinians from the number of Christians ) hardly any thing else . But , Sir , to make this Business also short , our Author saith , p. 16. That the Notion or Explication of Faith and Spirit , Church and Grace , Justification , Regeneration , Conversion , Adoption , and other things of like nature , are generally deficient in our Church , from those of the Separation . And indeed he saith true , that these are the Doctrines wherein Ministers that preach at Meetings , differ from many of those that preach in Parish-Churches , ( yet not from all , but the most of them ) but not from the Church of England . ( Sir ) again , make your Ears your Judges , read over distinctly the 39 Articles , and the Irish Articles , and our Homilies , particularly those about Justification , and Good Works , and Images , then hear Minsters on both sides , and conclude , that those are to be preferred as to Edification , that most truly and faithfully preach according to those Articles and Homilies , we will abide by that Test. His last Mistake is , 3. In taking sudden Heats and Warmths for Edification : As to that , let them answer that are concerned , p. 18. that whole Page is but reflexive , and upon so false a Foundation , as I am not willing to trouble my self with considering it , or to foul my Fingers with such a Dunghill of meere words . In his 19th Page he comes to what he calls a third Argument to prove it unlawful for Persons to leave their Parish-Churches for better Edification : Because ( as he pretends ) it will cause endless Divisions . Here , Sir , we must examine , 1. The Truth of the thing . 2. The proper Cause of the Effect , 〈…〉 uch an Effect will certainly follow . Admit , Sir , that in the same Family , several Persons should find it better for the Improvements of their Souls in Knowledge , Faith , Love , Obedience , holy Zeal , to go to several Parishes to hear their Ministers , or to several Meetings , what division is here ? It is this Day done in a thousand Families , all the Members of which yet live in a perfect Unity one with another ; the Wife dearly loves the Husband , and he again his Wife ; the Children truly honour the Parents , and the Parents as truly love their Children ; the Servants honour and obey their Masters , they are as tender of their Servants . I pray , Sir , as to this point , let your Eyes again here be your Judges : See what Families are more decently united , than those in which you will observe this different Motion when they go to hear . And , Sir , there is obvious Reason for it ; it speaks Men to use some Conscience and Reason of their own , when they cannot be guided by the meer Dictates and Examples of others ; and it is most certain , that those who live most up to the Rule of Scripture , and Square of Reason , make the best Correlates in any Relation ; and those the worst , who are led by Humour , or the meer Dictates and Wills of others . But admit , Sir , Division be the consequent of Persons ( in the same Parish ) going to hear in several places , for better Edification ( as we see it is ) will this prove it unlawful for People to go ? Just as much as it argueth , Christ's coming into the World ( necessary for the Salvation of Mankind ) unlawful , because himself tells us , Mat. 20. 34 , 35. That he came not to send Peace , but a Sword : For I am come to set a Man at variance against his Father , and the Daughter against her Mother , and the Daughter-in-Law against her Mother-in-Law . Suppose a few particular Persons in a Parish , ( who tho' themselves blind , yet will undertake to judge of Colours ) through their Peevishness or Ill-Nature , or their Pride and Ignorance , will have all Men to be of their Last , and to do as they do , or they will quarrel with them , nick-name them , pursue them in all Courts of Judicature , never let them be quiet , &c. doth this conclude , that those who are thus hunted , do any sinful thing ? It will rather be a presumption of the contrary . Division is no necessary Consequent of Peoples not going to their Parish-Church . What hath my Neighbour to do with my Soul , further than to admonish me , if he seeth Sin upon me ? Must every Man cut his Hair , or Beard , in the same Fashion , because else his Neighbour will call him Prick-ear , or Roundhead , and strike him over the Face : Or if he doth not , must he sin ? I am not to be charged with a sinful Effect of my Action , ( or Consequent rather ) which floweth from the Malice and Corruption of another's Heart , upon my doing what I believe to be my Duty . I cannot , Sir , but I must observe to you , that strange passage of his , p. 20. where he calls it a fatal Day , when — Liberty should be given to every Man to choose his Pastor . A thing he knows so evident in Scripture , so plain in all the Practice of the Primitive Church , and so consonant to all Reason and Religion , as nothing can be more . It is an Argument that Men and Women are debauched into a lamentable Opinion of their Souls , that can possibly think , that they ought not to have as much Liberty to chuse Pastors for themselves , as they will challenge for a Shooe-maker to fit their Feet with Shooes , or for a Taylor to fit their Bodies with a Suit of Cloaths . 4. Sir , The Author's last Argument is fetched from the Discouragement this would give to an honest , truly Christian Minister . This , Sir , supposeth , that all who inhabit within such a Parish , are properly that Ministers Flock , who preacheth in that Parish-Church . How is that proved ? Nor can it be true , 'till the Right of another be proved , to choose a Pastor for my Soul. But , Sir , I have been young , and now am old ; I never yet knew a faithful and profitable Preacher , want an Auditory . I have indeed known many a learned and honest Man , want the Company of his own Parishioners , but his Church hath been filled up with others . I have also known many a learned and good Man , who wanting Elocution , or an happy Method , or being weak in preaching Parts , hath wanted an Auditory , but let a Man be Conformist , or Nonconformist , if he were a Man sound in Matters of Doctrine , holy in his Life , and but of tolerable Preaching Parts and Abilities , I never knew him want an Auditory . I dare say , no such Person this Day wants , none especially that is chosen by the People ; either by a first Election , or an after Submission . There ever was , and while this World stands there will ever be difference in the Ministers Auditories , 'till God makes all Ministers equal in Gifts and Abilities . Neither do I much understand the Discouragement of a small Flock ( supposing the Minister to have a Livelihood ) the fewer Souls a Minister hath under his Charge , the lesser his Account will be at the Day of Judgment : To whom many Souls are entrusted , of him will many be required . But ( saith our Author ) what if our Pastor be idle , or remiss in his Duty , or corrupt in the Faith , and teacheth Error instead of sound Doctrine , and we have no means of Edification : What must we do ? Must we take in Poison instead of Food , or not be fed at all ? A very considerable Question ; to which might have been added : What if he be of an unholy Life , who builds with one Hand , and destroyeth with the other ? To whom People are ready to say when he reproveth one , Physitian heal thy self . How can we think you believe , as you speak , when we see you do not live as you speak ? But to the Questions as formed by himself , ( Sir ) the Author replies , To be sure you must not run into Schismatical Separation . It is more tolerable to go to other Congregations of our Communion , that may be irregular , but it is not schismatical . What doth he mean by a schismatical Separation ? Shall the following Words expound him ? It is more tolerable to go to other Churches of our Communion . What is the meaning of that ? Are not all Congregations , where the same Doctrine is preached , and the same Worship , I mean Acts of Worship , performed , of the same Communion ? Doth the Difference in the Ministers Habits , and Words in Prayer , make a different Communion ? But is it lawful to go to other Parish-Churches ? No , saith our Author , that is irregular ; and if it were not so , surely Men should not be made such deep Sufferers for that venial Sin. But he thanks God , We have a Government , which upon a just and modest Complaint , will quicken the Lazy and Negligent , correct the heretical Pastor , and restore to you true Edification . I have not a Word , Sir , to say against this : Judge as you see what is true or false in these Things , is Matter of Demonstration , and therefore there need no Words about it . The Author , Sir , concludes his Discourse with the Recommendation of two things to us . 1. That if we fancy any Defects in our Government , we should not hence conclude , that we have not sufficient Edification in the Church to save our Souls . I know , Sir , you cannot but observe , 1. How the Author hath forgot his Question , which he , p. 1. stated concerning better Edification . Sir , I do not think any sober Dissenter will deny , that Men and Women may be saved in the Church of England . I know many of them do think , that many will be saved in the Popish Communion , where they have no better Light to make use of , than they have in Spain and Italy , and live up to their Light ; doth it therefore follow , that they must not withdraw Communion from Rome ? I do not here compare the Church of England with the Romish Synagogue , I only bring this as an Instance , that a Sufficiency of the Means of Grace to bring Men to Heaven , is not enough for pious Souls to look after ; if it were , there needed no Exhortations to grow in Grace . How comes the Question to be altered here , p. 22. Or this to be used as an Argument not to seek for further Edifying ; that in the Church of England there is sufficient Edification , ( Means of Edification , I presume he means ) to save Souls , have Christians no more to do , doth this Author think , than to look just to get to Heaven ? Surely their Business is in the first place to glorifie God ; and that can be no otherwise , than by bringing forth much Fruit ; John 15. 8. Herein , saith our Saviour , is my Father glorified , if you bear much Fruit. There are some whose Work shall be burnt , and they shall suffer loss , but yet they themselves shall be saved ; yet so as by Fire , 2 Cor. 3. 15. Every good Christian will think himself concerned so to live , so to walk as he may most glorifie God , and be saved , yet not so , as by Fire . He goeth on , If upon a nice search , and critical enquiry , they think they have found some little Flaws and Defects , improper Phrases , doubtful Sentences , and some small Omissions in the Matter of our Prayers and Discipline ; yet let them not conclude , that these can weigh in the Ballance against the black Sin of Schism and Separation ; and all its sad Consequents , which is excused by nothing else , but Terms of Communion plainly sinful . Sir , We must give them leave to load Practices , they do not like hard Names , when they are not able to convince the Authors of them of any Sin. I could wish , that we could hear more of the black Sins of Drunkenness and Whoredom , and prophane Cursing , and Swearing ; but they can never Name Schism and Separations , but they must represent that as a black Sin , yet they will never tell us in any intelligible Dialect , what this same Sin unto Death is ? Wherein it lies ? Which of the Ten Commandments it opposeth , & c ? Let them first tell us , What the Church is , and open how we ever were united to it , and then shew as plainly , how we are separated from it , and we will cry Peccavimus , if we cannot shew them , that the Terms upon which we must have had Communion with it , were such as we had just Reason to believe sinful . But Sir , when Dissenters plead Separation lawful for better Edification , it is not so much with respect to the Worship , and Government , as to the Preaching most ordinary in it ; not that there are not excellent Preachers that do Conform to the Church of England ; but with all there are others , many of which also may be very Learned and good Men ; but yet not have the Gift of Preaching . Edification is much more concerned in the Doctrine and Preaching , which Men ordinarily hear and attend , than it is in the Form of a Churches Government , and in the Prayers used there ( though they also influence it ) in a much lower Degree doth , for a Knowledge of the Things of God , being the Foundation of all Faith , Love , Obedience , or any sanctified Affection ; that Ordinance which most contributes to that , must necessarily most contribute to Edification . It is therefore the Preaching in most Parish Churches , which People look at , as less tending to Edification , than what they hear elsewhere , being less fitted to their Understandings , and Memories ; less awakening and Operative upon their Affections ; if any of them assign any thing in the Publick Worship , or the Government of the Church , as giving them Cause to withdraw their Presence from the former , or Concurrence with the latter ; it is ordinarily of another Nature , not for further Edification meerly . Whereas Sir , our Author saith , p. 24. That he doth not understand , what it is to be better saved , or more saved ? We cannot help that , the Apostle 1 Cor. 3. 15. Will teach him what he pretends to be so unintelligible . His next Councel is p. 24. Let Edification be placed in the substantial Parts of Religion . Sir , We have our Religion yet to seek , if Faith and Holiness , be not the substantial Parts of it . There is none that denieth , that a right Faith , and an honest Conversation is taught in our Church . The Question is , Whether they be ordinarily taught in all Parish Churches in the best Manner for Peoples Understanding either , or Improvement in either ? They are certainly taught in the best manner with Reference to Edification , when they are taught so plainly as all the Hearers may understand them ; and what is said , is so proved and justified from Holy Writ ; that their Faith ( whose Object , 't is not possible should be any Thing , but a Divine Revelation ) can be founded not in the Wisdom of Mens fine Words , or fallible Ratiocinations ; but in the Power of God , and in the Wisdom of the Divine Will revealed in his Word . If the Author Sir means , that these Things are taught in our Thirty Nine Articles , and in some particular Churches , all that he can infer is , That it is not lawful for us to divide our selves from the Doctrine of Faith in those Articles ; nor from such Places where we dwell , where those Doctrines are so Preached , if ever we were united to them . If he means , that in all Parish Churches , Faith , and Holiness are so pressed , and preached ; he will find it denied by many , and impossible by himself to be proved . I see Sir , nothing more in all the Book you sent me ( unless Words . ) To draw up all in short Sir. If all the Ministers and Christians on the Earth ( not apostatized to Idolatry ) be but one Church , her Doctrine , and Worship , one and the same ; how is it possible , that any should separate from it , who adhereth to the Doctrine of it , and lives in the performance of the same Acts of Worship , that God is honoured by in every Part of it ? For it is certain , that all such Persons as are Members of it , neither do , nor ever did Worship God in the same Place , nor by the same Numerical Acts ; nor are under the same external Form of Church-Government , and Order : So as there is no pretence of Separation from the Catholick Visible Church . I know no other Church , but the particular Church of which an individual Person is a Member . Let us consider that , as signifying the whole Body of Christians wherein we live ( upon which Account we sometimes speak of a National Church ) how can a Person more separate from that , than from the Catholick Church ( Sir ) who adhereth to the Doctrine of Faith owned in it , and serveth God in any Part , or corner of it by the same specifical Acts of Worship , that whole Body of People serveth God by , and in ? For neither do all the People in any Nation meet in the same Place to Worship God ; nor do the Ministers use the same Words , in all their Prayers , or Sermons , nor do People use the same Habits and Postures in their Acts of Worship : Do they mean the Particular Congregation of which Men are Members ? It is impossible a Man should separate from a Church in that Sense who never was a Member of it , and as impossible that any should sinfully withdraw Communion from a Church in that lowest Notion , that cannot without Sin , have Communion with it , in that , or those Acts in which he withdraweth his Communion . Neither is he to be called a Separatist , that only withdraweth his Communion from it as to an human Tradition , and is yet ready to have Communion with it in every Divine Institution . It is most certain that Christ did so , as to the Jews , and also kept a Communion distinct from them , though he did not wholly cast off Communion with them . John Baptist kept a Communion with the Jewish Church , yet sufficiently reflected on the Corruptions of it ; and neither restrained his Preaching , nor Baptizing to the Synagogues or Temple . This same thing so clamour'd on , under the Notion of the black Sin of Schism and Separation , if it signifieth any thing more , than a withdrawing frome some Rites , and Ceremonies of no Divine Institution , no Necessity , the Imposition of which , and a Compliance with which some Persons judge sinful ; I must profefs my self not in the least Degree to understand it , and if it signifies no more , which of the Ten Commandments it is opposed to . I cannot understand , nor how to excuse him from it , who did the like , yet was Holy , Undefiled , Separate from Sinners . But Sir , as to what is said in this Discourse , That it is sinful for a Man ( agreeing in all the Points of Faith , in all the substantial Parts and Acts of Worship with all Christians in the World , and more especially with all those in the Nation , or in the Parish wherein he Lives ) not ordinarily to join in those Numerical Acts of Worship which the rest of the Parishioners , or many of them join in ; because the Preaching and Praying , or other Administrations of Holy Things in that Place , is not such , as he by Experience findeth most conducive to the Profit of his Soul , either to convey to him the Knowledge of the Things of God , or to affect his Heart with Love to , and Zeal for God. It is of all Things , that which I least understand , And ( Sir ) I hope it is the last Thing any shall beat into my Head. If any hath a Design upon me ( Sir ) let him attempt if he can to prove , that I have Soul , or if any , yet that Soul ( or Thing called so ) is but the Cr●sis of my Body , no distinct Being from it , but shall with it Die and Putrifie , and never with it rise more , to hear of what I have done in the Flesh. Or let him attempt , if he can to perswade me , that I am not with this Soul to endeavour to my utmost to Glorifie God. But I hope he shall never , so long as I believe that there is a God , or that I have an Immortal Being within me , with which I ought to glorifie this God ( the Eternal Concern of which I am above all Things to mind ) and in Order to it , to obey God by doing his Will. Perswade me , that it is sinful for me to leave my Parish Church , and go to hear the Word of God , and join in his Holy Institutions in another Place , that I may more build up my Soul in the Knowledge of God , in the Faith of God , or Love to him . Nor indeed ( to give this Author his due ) ( though in his first Lines he pretended to do some such Thing ) hath he in his Book at all pursued it ; but only proved , that I ought not to go from my Parish Church that I may Edifie more ; when as there is no Place I can go to , where it is possible I should Edifie more ; and suggested that we do not know what Edification meaneth , Having therefore as to the Latter satisfied him , that if himself knows what Edification means , we also do ; for we understand the same Thing by it , that he means ; I hope he will give us leave to judge of the former , as being the most competent Judge of what we best understand , and feel the best Effects of ; and no more pretend to know better , what Preaching I best understand , and is most suited to my Soul , than he can pretend to know what Food best agreeth with my Stomack , and Digestion , and serveth best for my Nourishment . As to this Business of Edification , what is said of the Physitian , is true of the Divine , as the one gives Physick , so the other preacheth , Non ad bominem , sed ad Socratem , the same Matter , and Method , and Phrase , and Stile , is not for the same Edification of all that may go to hear . And this , Sir , is enough , I think , to have spoken of this matter : For it is certain , that all things spoken now-a-days edifie not , nor do all things which may in some degree edifie some , in the same , or indeed in any degree edifie others . Let therefore us have the favour that Daniel obtained of Matzar , Dan. 1. 11. let us have that Pulse to eat , and that Water to drink , which we find best agreeing with our Stomachs , Concoction , and Digestion ; and let it either be judged by God at the end of the World , or by any reasonable Man , after a determinate Number of Years , whether those who are fed with the King's Meat , or we that have been fed with that Pulse and Water , be more full of the Knowledge of the Things of God , more full of Love to God , more pious in our Acts of Devotion , more full of Acts of Justice and Charity , more exercised in a good Conscience both towards God and Man , from whence this Edification will be best concluded . The Sum of all which this Author hath said , lies in Four Things . 1. What is impossible to be had , is unlawful to be attempted . By this Medium , he proves , going to Meetings for further Edification unlawful . But , Sir , did ever any Man before him reason from impossibility , to unlawfulness of endeavour ? I always thought the Question , ( as stated by him ) supposed the possibility of such a thing , as further edifying : Besides , that there are many things lawful enough to be endeavoured , which yet cannot be obtained . Secondly , If it be not lawful to go to Meetings for mistaken Edification , then it is not lawful to go thither , for true and real Edification . This is the Sum of his Reasoning , p. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. Thirdly , That which will cause endless Divisions is not lawful : Which is no further true , than those Divisions necessarily arise out of the pretended Cause . The Gospel hath caused Divisions , ever since it was preached , now more than 1600 Years ; and , for ought I see , is like to do so still : Yet , I hope , it is neither unlawful to preach it , nor to live up to the Rule of it . This is his Argumentation , p. 19 , 20. Fourthly , That which is a discouragement to an honest and truly Christian Ministry , is unlawful . If he means by an honest Christian Ministry , all Ministers , or many such Ministers as the Apostle speaks of , that live well , being Examples to the Flock of Christ , such as are described , 1 Tim. 3. 3 , 4. and 1 Titus 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. ( and such the Apostle saith Ministers must be , 1 Tim. 3 , 2. ) and such as Rule well , shewing it first in the Government of their own Families , 1 Tim. 3 , 4 , 5. Labouring in the Word and Doctrine . He speaks true , for the Apostle saith , such are worthy of double Honour , and to discourage such , is unquestionably sinful : But if he means others , it is far easier to prove it sinful to countenance and incourage , than to discourage them . By this time , Sir , I need not tell you my Thoughts , that the Hypothesis of this Author , had need of better Arguments than what he hath brought to prove it , and you may be judge of the Truth , of what can be no better proved . FINIS .