A dialogue betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist concerning the lawfulness of private meetings in the time of the publick ordinances, and of going to them ... published by N.E., for common benefit. Estwick, Nicolas. 1668 Approx. 52 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A38683 Wing E3359 ESTC R14691 12595608 ocm 12595608 64045 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A38683) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64045) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 316:4) A dialogue betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist concerning the lawfulness of private meetings in the time of the publick ordinances, and of going to them ... published by N.E., for common benefit. Estwick, Nicolas. 22 p. s.n.], [London : 1668. Attributed to Nicolas Estwick. Cf. Wing. Place of publication from Wing. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Dissenters, Religious -- England. Assembly, Right of -- England. 2006-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-11 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-01 Celeste Ng Sampled and proofread 2007-01 Celeste Ng Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Conformist and a Non-conformist ▪ Concerning the Lawfulness of Private Meetings In the time of the Publick Ordinances , and of going to them : AND ALSO , Some Directions how to Profit by Hearing , designed chiefly for the benefit of the People of S. M. Magdalen's and Redriff . Published by N. E. for common benefit . Now I beseech you Brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrine which you have learned , and avoid them ; for they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ , but their own belly , and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , Rom. 16. 17. Be no more Children tossed to and fro , and carryed about with every wind of Doctrine , by the sleight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive , Eph. 4. 14. Printed in the Year , 1668. The Dialogue . Conformist . NEighbour I am glad to see you , you have not been lately at Church , I hope you have not forsaken it . Non-conformist . I go constantly to hear a precious man that preacheth hard-by in private , whither I would fain have you go , I wish so well to your soul . C. I thank you , but you know we are not so well skill'd , but Schollars can preach dangerous errors to us , and we not discern them ; how dare you trust your self to be guided and taught by a stranger ? and why do you forsake our own Minister who hath subscrib'd to the Articles of our Religion ? N. C. Truly I don't conceive it my duty to hear him , but that I am free to hear where I please . C. Is our Minister bound to preach ? if so , sure some body is bound to hear him ; and I know none more bound to hear him than you and I , for God by his providence hath set him over us , and you know we were ready and glad to receive him . St. Paul you know was Apostle and Minister to the Corinthians , 1 Cor. 4. 15. & chap. 9. 2. and when they forsook him , though they followed good men , Apollo and Peter , yet he blames them for it , 1 Cor. 3. 3. Besides by the Laws of the Land we are appointed and enjoyn'd to worship God at our own Parish Churches , and 1 Pet. 2. 13. We must submit to every Ordinance of man for the Lords sake : Do not we blame those Ministers that are Non-resident and leave their people ? and why is it not as much a fault in the people to leave their Minister ? N. C. I must confess you have given me some reason why I ought rather to hear at our own Parish Church than elsewhere , but yet I think I have very good reason why I have lest it . C. Have you any just exceptions against the life or Doctrine of our Minister ? N. C. No , I have not , but though he be not scandalous , yet there are many of the Clergy are . C. That 's no reason why you should leave him , but rather encourage and love him because he is sober ; but suppose he were scandalous in his life , this would not be a sufficient reason presently to leave him . N. C. No! why ? C. First we ought modestly and meekly to advise him to live well , if this would not do , then we ought to complain of him to his Superiors that they may admonish him ; if this would not do , we are to make use of the Law whereby scandalous and erroneous Ministers may be suspended till they reform ; and if any people have bad Ministers , 't is their own fault , and great sin if they don't take this course with them , and till we have done our duty we can't be excusable in leaving a scandalous Minister . N. C. But what ? must we hear and receive Sacraments , &c. in the mean time from such a man ? C. Yes , for I judge the Ordinances of God if rightly and duly administred by him , are not the worse for the wickedness of the man that dispenseth them ; for they are Gods Ordinances and not man's , and their excellency and efficacy come from God , and not from the righteousness of any man that dispenseth them , so that if we will duly make use of them , his wickedness can't hinder us from benefit by them : we must take Christs advice Do as they say , and not as they do . N. C. But why do the Bishops suffer such men to come into Livings , and why don't they eject them when in ? C. The Patron hath a right to Present , and if the Bishops will not admit hee 'l force him by a Quare impedit : and the Bishop can't suspend them when in , unless first he know it , and be inform'd of it ; and secondly unless it be prov'd and prosecuted ; for the Bishop can't be Judge and accuser both , and therefore the Church-Wardens are sworn to Present such ; if therefore they be not prosecuted , the fault is not in the Bishop but people . Neighbour I heartily wish we did more cover the nakedness of some few of the Clergy , and if they would not be reclaim'd , that they were prosecuted in a legal way , and not by Invectives and envious reflections lay the fault of some few upon the whole . N. C. I must acknowledge I can't accuse our Minister , but the reasons why I go from him , are , first because the Common-Prayer is read at his Church , secondly because I can profit more by another man that preacheth in private . C. In answer to your first reason , I remember you have gone to hear at the Church though the Common-Prayer was read there , at least you were wont to come in after it was done ; why is it more unlawful for you to come now than it was then ? If you scruple at Common-Prayer , why do you not joyn with us in the rest ? Besides , how many of you will hear it at a Christning ? Do the sweet Meats and Wine make it more lawful at that time than it is at another ▪ N. C. It is Mass , 't is Porridge , 't is Bibble bable , 't is Will-worship , 't is Superstition , and shall I come to hear where it is ? C. I pray be not angry , but hear me meekly . 1. They are good prayers made to the true God in the Name of Jesus Christ , and I can't account it less than a kind of Blasphemy , and an high breach of the third Commandment to deride and scorn them ; 't is true , Elijah mockt at the prayers of Baals Priests , but 't was because they prayed to a false God , but is it not horrible wickedness for those that own the true God , to deride those prayers that are made to him ? 2. There is some part of the Bible in the Mass , is it e're a whit the worse for being there ? no more are good prayers the worse for being in the Mass . 3. Why is not your way more Will-worship than ours ? wherein you have more your own Will , and inventions than we have ? your Minister invents what prayers , and what way of Administring the Sacraments he pleaseth , and this he will do , though more wise , pious , and learned men have made better ; and King , Lords , and Commons , and the Convocation have advis'd and enjoyn'd the use of them ; hath not he high conceits of himself ? much of confidence and will in his worship ? and little of modesty , that thinks himself wiser and his own inventions , better than these ? is not yours Will-worship ? 4. I have been taught , that Superstition can't be in a prayer or any external thing , but that 't is in our minds , it being an evil apprehension of God ; and so those that are against Common Prayer may be as guilty of Superstition as they that use it . 5. I pray tell me , and speak your conscience , do you not think that if you should heartily joyn with the Minister in it , if you should use the Confessions with true repentance for sin , the Petitions with sincere desires for those good things they mention , and the thanks givings with love and praises to God in your soul ; this would not be more pleasing to God than turning your back upon it , and scoffing at it ? N. C. But they are such cold and formal prayers , that I can't lift up my heart in the use of them . C. Surely you are highly mistaken , to think that good prayers can be formal , or make you cold and dead in praying them ? 1. To pray by a form is lawful and good , else why would our Saviour have left us a form ? why do we use Psalms ? do you not use a form for a Grace at Meals ? are not extempory prayers forms to the hearers , for the hearers must no more vary from them , least they be guilty of wandring thoughts , than we from the Common-Prayer ? and some must use a form in their Families , or not pray at all , they having not good and ready inventions . 2. I alway thought evil formality in prayer consisted not in a form of words , but in a lazy formal temper of minde , so th t if you be not serious in using Common or other prayers , 't is you that are formal , and not the prayers . 3. Besides I finde , and me thinks 't is reasonable , that those words whose form and Emphasis I have considered of and apprehended before , should at the using of them most readily ( when I have not time to meditate ) and most powerfully affect my heart by the way of my judgment ; and that extempory inventions do most usually but raise the affections by the force of the fancy , as Poets , Musicians , &c. finde by experience . 4. I cannot believe that bate inventing and affectionate using of new words every time we pray , is praying by the Spirit , but certainly to pray by the Spirit , is to exercise Charity , Humility , Faith , Repentance , and the rest of the Graces of the Holy Spirit in our hearts in prayer , and seeing words are but to express our minds , and that those Graces in out hearts may be exprest by a form of words ; I see not why he that prays by a form , may not at least as well pray by or wish the Spirit as others . N. C. Truly friend , I finde I can't twice a day invent a new form fit to be pray'd in my Family , and therefore do most usually use a form of words , which I see my Children and Servants better understand than extemporary prayers . But that which makes some of the Non-conformists think Common-Prayer unlawful , is the Imposition of it . C. Though I think out Governors may impose lawful things , yet it not much concerns us to dispute that , but whether we are to obey them or not ; and for this I would fain understand , how that which was lawful for me to do before imposed , should by being imposed become unlawful ; or when are we more bound to obey Magistrates than when they command lawful things ? Seeing their commands which are about lawful things take away only the liberty of our actions , but not the liberty of our consciences , which is properly Christian liberty ; the former is a due to our lawful Superiours , the latter only a tribute to God ; therefore the French Protestant Church , and the Dutch , and all the Reformed Churches have Forms which they use in Publick . N. C. But there are some things in the Common-Prayer that are unlawful , and you have no Scripture for them . C. I suppose you mean the Ceremonies , Surplice , Cross , and Kneeling , which have been enough disputed by others ; all that I will answer to you is , that I must confess there is no express Scripture for them , and yet I don't count them unlawful . N. C. No! why , I pray is it lawful for us to do any thing in the Worship of God that we have not Scripture for ? C. Yes , for though there be no Scripture for them , yet there is none against them , and nothing is sin but what is forbidden , and if you account them unlawful when there is no Scripture against them , you are righteous over-much , and add to Gods word . N. C. Say you so ! I don't remember any plain place of Scripture against them , but will think on one against the next time we meet . C. Do I pray , and think how small a condescention these would be in you o're the things strangled and bloud enjoyn'd to be forborn , Acts 15. 29. And St. Pauls causing Timothy to be circumcis'd , were . N. C. But friend , do you not see how all that are godly hate the Common Prayer , and the Bishops , and hear in private , and is not this enough to induce you and I to do so too ? C. I pray ask your Minister whether there was any other Government in the Church then Bishops from the Apostles times , till Mr. Calvins , who liv'd about a hundred years ago ? I know you quarrel at our Bishops greatness , but that alters not their Office , and shall thy eye be evil because the King 's and his Predecessors hath been good to them ? is it any evil in thee to accept what is given thee ? I do believe that many that are against them are truly godly , but I do not count it any part of their piety , but their great mistake ; and when I consider that St. Paul saith Charity is the chiefest grace , I am afraid there are too few of them truly godly , because they are so full of scoffing , railing , envy , and bitterness against Bishops : and although our Saviour enjoyns us ▪ to love and do good , to bless and pray for those that are our enemies , yet they pray against their supposed enemies , and 't is said , will fast and pray whole days to beseech God to curse them . Oh horrid ! the Devil would do thus too , but that he knows 't is to no purpose . Christians are enjoyn'd to pray for Heathen Governors , and do they act like Christians that pray against Christian Governors ? Besides , I never could like their calling themselves and their party the godly , it savours more of Pharisaical Pride , than Modesty and Humility . N. C. But can you think that a people that pray , and fast , and hear so much are not the best ? C. Who prayed and fasted more than the Pharisees ? and than Cromwell and his Companions ? indeed Neighbour methinks there is more of Christianity in a modest obedience to Superiors , in justice and charity to our Neighbours , than in praying whole days , fasting twice a week , Lectures and Meetings every day . N. C. O Sir ▪ me thinks you now are full of 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 to despise godliness . C. I do not observe my self to be in a Passion , hear my reasons , and if they be not good I 'le conclude I am mistaken . God forbid I should despise praying , hearing , &c. they are our duties , and especially the publick , at being publick acknowledgments that God is the Governor of the world ; but yet I would not over ▪ value them , for they are but means to a good life , and are no further acceptable to God than as they tend to make us live well , and is not the end to be preferr'd above the means ? And is it not a great error to make meer praying , and hearing , and to be affected in them our and ? who is the best Christian , he that prays , &c. most ? or that lives best ? N. C. But they are most likely to get grace and to live best that pray , &c. most ▪ C. I am not of your mind . N. C. How ! who are more likely to get grace than they ? C. They that strive most to get what they pray for , and to do what they hear , for our designs in attending upon God in his Ordinances , should not be to change God ( who is unchangeable ) but our selves by Gods grace , which is not done by meer begging for grace , but by resolutions and endeavours to live well . We must not go to God as if he were perverse or hard hearted , and must be over-come with a great many importunities , perswasions , and arguments ; for he is a kind and loving Father , and no sooner doth he see us repentant and resolv'd to live well , but he hears and answers us , so that he that most endeavours to subdue his lusts , and to exercise a good conscience is the best man , and most likely to get grace ; but to place our Religion in external devotions , smells too rank of Popery and Superstition , though we are never so frequent and so affected in them . N. C. But do you not observe how many there are that worship God in private ? C. What is more fickle than the multitude , who are tossed up and down with every wind of Doctrine ? and we know that old Eve is too much in us all , especially in the Women , we long most to taste forbidden fruit . When many of these men that preach in private had liberty to preach in publick , they had very few to hear them . N. C. But have not the Puritans been alway accounted the godly of the Land ? C. Yes , by themselves and their own party ; and I have very worthy thoughts for the old Puritans , who as Mr. Clark and others tell us , did most dillgently attend upon the publick Ordinances , and did most devoutly and reverently joyn in the Common-Prayers , and would take care to be at the beginning of them , and did only scruple some of the Ceremonies : But how come you now to differ so much from them ? N. C. Because we have more light than they had . C. I don't believe it : 't is true , there is more preaching , talking , and disputing about the niceties and circumstances of Religion , but fewer now know and mind the essentials of Religion contained in the Creed , Lords Prayer , and ten Commandments : the best evidence of the light of this age are the works of it , sure I am there is not now an hundredth part so much Love and Charity , so much Honesty and Faithfulness , so much Temperance and Sobriety , so much Modesty and Humility , so much of Simplicity and Plainness , so much of Reverence for Superiors , as there was before our unhappy Civil Wars , from which times of liberty we may date the debauching of the Nation . Light is not the cause of deeds of darkness . N. C. Well friend , I see you will be for your Mumpsimus still ; what say you to my other reason against hearing in publick Churches ? C. Neighbour , I do pray you , nay admonish you in the Name of God to have more reverence for the worship of the Great God. You are too near of kin to the Monsters of the other end of the Town that scoff at all Religion , onely you pretend to do it in zeal for Religion : but this wont excuse the Devil , that he pretends to be an Angel of light . Was not your other reason this , that you can profit most in private ? N. C. Yes , and ought I not to go where I can profit most ? C. If you must go where you think you can profit most , then if you can find another that you can profit by more than Mr. J. you must leave Mr. J. and go to him . N. C. Yes . C. Well , and there may be the same reason to leave the next , and so the next , till you come to the best of all ▪ and if every one do thus , what undecent Levity and Confusion will there be ? But suppose he that you think you can profit most by should go into India ? if it be your duty to hear where you think you can profit most , it is your duty to follow him , seeing 't is not impossible . Certainly Neighbour 't is our duty to hear where God hath placed us , and the less means we have , the less will God require of us , and we must endeavour to improve our selves by our own diligence , and may with reason expect more of profit than those that gad or hear better preachers in private ; for those that disobey Governors , and cause divisions , that they may worship in private when they may worship in publick , do like the Israelites , who disobeyed God that they might have fat cattel to offer up in sacrifice to him ; and therefore are not so likely to profit by the Ordinance , as those that worship in publick , Who do no evil that good may come on 't . To obey Superiors is to obey God , and to obey is better than sacrifice , but the sacrifice of the wicked is an Abomination to the Lord , 2 Prov. 15. 8. But let me be informed from you what you mean by profiting , are you taught any truth needful for your souls that is not taught in publik ? N. C. Not that I can remember . C. But I can tell you of some truths we hear in publick , that your private preachers , though they know and believe them , dare not or will not preach to you . N. C. Which are they ▪ certainly they are conscientious men , and would not be men ▪ pleasers . C. First , I am afraid they scarce dare preach upon the Creed , the Lords Prayer , and ten Commandments , least their hearers should think them low and mean things . 2. They will not tell you that you ought to keep to your own Parish Churches , though they believe you ought ; for when they preacht in publick , then they taught that Doctrine , and petitioned against Coventicles . 3. They dare not tell you that the Common-Prayer is lawful , and that you ought to be sincere in the hearing of it . N. C. But what reason have you that any of them think it lawful ? C. Because most of them have confest it , and they scruple only one or more of the Ceremonies ; besides , he that you go to hear , viz. Mr. J. was a Curate under a Minister in the Country since the King came in , and read the Common-Prayer for him . Yet now — 4. They will not tell you that you ought to obey Superiors , and not speak evil of Dignities Temporal or Spiritual , though the Scriptures speaks expresly that the Elders that labour in the word , i. e. that are Ministers of the Gospel , that rule well should have double honour . But how many I will not say invent evil reports , but rejoyce at them , and envy their fame and repute ? 5. They dare not tell you that you ought not to make divisions or schisms in the Church , and you know well enough why they dare not preach these truths . N. C. Enough of this , there are better things for them to preach of . C. Me-thinks these are things of great concernment : A Drunkard , an Whore-monger , a Swearer , doth a great deal less harm in Church and State , than he that breaks the fifth Commandment , or causeth divisions . N. C. Our Governors cause divisions , by imposing things against mens consciences . C. Did you ever know any confess themselves to be the causers of division , though they were ? yet sometimes you forget your selves , and confess it when you call your selves the Brethren of the separation . 2. You can't except against matters of faith , only Discipline and Government , i. e. in plain word you would not be ruled , but would be rulers . 3. All Reformed Churches take to themselves a power of imposing indifferent things , the French Protestants appoint the posture of standing at the Lords Supper , and will not give it to any that sit : the Dutch impose sitting , and will not give it to any that stand , and shall they have power to appoint standing or sitting , and not we kneeling ? You know God appointed the Passover to be taken standing , yet the Jews afterward altered this posture , and commanded sitting or leaning , and our Saviour obey'd them , and did eat the Passover sitting or leaning . The Jews appointed Holy ▪ days that God never appointed , as the Feast of Dedication , no where mentioned but in the Maccabees , and yet Christ observes this Feast ; John 10. But what need I say more ? the Presbyterians appointed the Ceremony of holding up the hand at the taking the Covenant , and an Oath is a piece of worship to God : and yet they will say somewhat that they make you believe they are persecuted for their consciences . N. C. So they are , were ever so many Ministers so strangely driven from their places ? C. I do think Governors ought to enact such Laws as they in their consciences think best for the Nation , and such particular persons as can't submit to those Laws , must be contented to suffer , and yet not count it persecution ; For persecution is when men suffer for being Righteous , our governors aim'd at peace , and not at punishing of them for their consciences , or for being righteous ; for they may be as good Christians as they will as to their faith and manners , they may be as humble as meek , as just , as self-denying as they will ; they may worship God after their own way , in their own families , and never be punish'd for it ; and besides , have sufficient opportunities of worshipping God in publick . The great contest is , who shall rule and govern the Church , they , or the King and Parliament , whose model or way shall take place ; and if all will not submit to them 't is persecution . Is this the same case with Christs and the Apostles ? they were persecuted for preaching the Gospel , because the then Governors would not have had Christian Religion preacht at all , but our Governours not only suffer those that will submit to be ruled by them to preach the Gospel , but encourage them , and therefore we see as good preaching here abouts as ever there was . N. C. But friend , we have quite forgot our main business ; we were inquiring what profit I got in private more than in publick : I told you , I did not remember any truths preacht there that were not in publick ; but I 'le tell you that he whom I hear is a most rowsing , awakening Preacher , that stirs me up and quickens me , so that me-thinks I find a great deal of God going along with his preaching . C. If you please , we may consider of the benefit you mean under these Heads . 1. Either your affections are rais'd . 2. Or your heart and life made better . N. C. Can I think I ought not to go where my affections are most rais'd . C. I pray let me ask you some questions ; seeing our affections are rais'd either by our judgments or our fancies , tell me which way you think he raiseth yours ? N. C. I hope it is by my judgment , for he gives us reasons for the Doctrines . C. Can you remember the particular arguments or reasons that so awakened you the last time ? had they any thing extraordinary in them ? N. C. No , I can't remember what particularly it was that had that power over me . C. 'T is strange ! that which we are so much affec●ed with , we are not apt to forget : But tell me , what power hath it had upon you since ? for if our affections are rais'd by the way of our judgments , I observe those truths will hang in our minds like weights or byasses , drawing our souls , and subduing our hearts and lives to them . I pray speak sincerely , do you find any such over-powering sense of any truth continue in your mind afterwards ? N. C. I must if I will speak truth , say I do not ; only a kind of liking to the man , and longing to hear him again . C. I pray tell me , hath he not a very loud voice , sweet tone , a pretty smiling contenance , a vehement and earnest delivery , and active posture of body , is not his Sermon fil'd with a great many pitiful words , as poor soul , poor sinner , a great many expostulations , exclamations , oh's and ah's and groans intermixt ? have not you a great opinion of him for his godliness , and love , and compassion to him , because a Non-conformist ? N. C. All this I must confess . C. Do you think that the same Sermon or a better , if delivered from a Conformist , or a grave man , whose voice is lower and is not so affectionate , would please & affect you so much ? N. C. I must acknowledge I think it would not , what do you gather from hence ? C. That your affections are rais'd by the way of your fancy ▪ & that you are much mistaken to call this profit , for 't is but pleasure , and if you go only to be thus affected , you have the same ends in going to hear a Sermon , that others have in going to a Comedy , or walk in the fields , viz. their pleasure and delight . N. C. This may be true , but however this may be a good way to have good wrought upon the heart and life . C. I will not limit God , but will tell you that St. Paul seem'd in his preaching to shun this art , 1 Cor. 2. 1. I came not to you with excellency of speech or wisdom , v. 4. but my speech and preaching was not with enticing words of mens wisdom ; that the things of Christian Religion might be preacht in their own native power and plainness , and St. Aug. chides himself for delighting so much in the singing of Psalms , observing that his heart went a whoring too much after the pleasure of the Musick and delights of his fancy in it . N. C. But our Minister sometimes looks on his notes , and if he be not very affectionate , I am dull , and ready to fall asleep . C. If he looks on his notes , 't is a sign he hath considered well before-hand what to say to you ; you must not be a patient and expect to be rows'd , but you must rowse your self ▪ and you must by meditating on the truths you hear , raise your affections to them ; that heat that is rais'd within by the exercise of our own faculties is natural , and abundantly better than that which comes from an external fire , that is ready to scorch you . But I pray observe the different tempers of men , some are more judicious , others more affectionate , and some have louder voices than others , and if either of these be a sufficient cause for separation , we seem to blame God that he hath not made all men alike . N. C. But those that preach in private , have been and are instruments of converting many ? C. The praise and glory be given to God if they are , but pray tell me what you call conversion , I hope you mean more than a being made a Non-conformist ? or so affected in hearing as was spoke of before ? what real change is made in them ? N. C. Those that were profane are made sober . C. I am glad to hear it , and do heartily wish it be not a meer change from one sin to another . I remember the Jews said of John the Baptist , because he came neither eating nor drinking he had a Devil , but of Christ because he came eating and drinking he was gluttonous , &c. though they wrongly apply'd it , yet their rule was this , that those that only resrain'd from gluttony and drunkenness , had Devils , i. e. envy , pride , hypocrisie , and such lusts within them . Let me ask you therefore , are they not hugely affected to the Non-conformists way ? do they not angrily ( or as they call it , zealously ) condemn all that are not of their way ? would they not count it a kind of Apostacy and backsliding from grace for any to forsake private meetings , and receive the Supper in publick ? N. C. Why do you ask ? it may be it is so . C. Because , if so , I am afraid it 's only a conversion to the Non-conformists , and not to God ? for in true conversion , humility and charity are the chief graces wrought in us , and I am apt to think where such judging is , where such railing , censoriousness , and bitterness is against civil or spiritual Superiors , there is more of the Devil than the true spirit of Christianity , and I doubt 't is a change from the lusts of the flesh to the works of the Devil ; 't is a change wrought by some external weight ( as motion in a Clock ) and doth not proceed from a principle of life . N. C. Come , come , I am afraid you speak this out of envy , as being unwilling to acknowledge that any good is done by the Non-conformists . C. I do most solemnly profess I speak my judgment , and shall heartily rejoyce that good is done by any ; some may preach Christ out of envy , some out of covetousness , others out of pride , to get followers and a name ; and God , who is not tyed or beholden to means , may do good by these , and yet this no excuse at all to these teacher's faults , nor have we reason from hence to think the better of them ( but of God ) or to be followers of them , for we must not do evil that good may come on 't . N. C. You seem to be very tart , and therefore will I not put you upon speaking much more upon this theme , but I find by experience I cannot profit so much by our own Minister as by him I heat in private , I mean , as to my heart and life . C. If I have any gaul in my heart , I wish I knew my self better , for I do not discern it , but God willing I shall more search my heart , and shall desire you calmly to consider of what I said . As to your profiting , I would ask , is not that by the spirit of God ? I mean , is not the spirit the Author of real grace in the heart , and piety in the life ? N. C. Yes , I believe it is ; what then ? C. Is it more in the power of a Non-conformist Minister to give grace than a Conformist ? N. C , No , but in those waters we find the spirit most moving , must we not frequent most there ? C. I must deny that which you suppose to be true , viz. that God's spirit doth ordinarily go along more with one mans preaching than anothers , if both are Orthodox and honest . N. C. I pray tell me , how then it comes to pass that one man converteth more than another doth ? C. I answer , that 't is not ordinarily , because one Minister is more godly than another , or a better preacher than another , but because some are better hearers than others ; some do less resist and more close with the spirit than others do , and I dare from my own experience say , that the reason why you don't profit by your own Minister is your own fault only ; for as God is not tyed to place , so neither to this or that man , or to his parts or preaching . And if you would take some advice given to me , you would know how to profit by every man , as I thank God I do by our own Minister . N. C. Do me that kindness for my souls sake , and you gain me ; for I desire to profit by hearing , and if I can do that by our own Minister , I 'le not forsake him . C. I will therefore Neighbor open my heart to you , and tell you I was once in your condition , I thought to be affected with a Sermon , was profiting by it , and you know we are most apt to be affected with novelties , and therefore I had an itching ear , and seldom could be pleased with one man long , and I did above all most loath and despise my own Minister as being stale to me , God forgive me for it , for I was highly pleas'd with him at first , at last I began to reflect upon my self , and to consider what good I had got by all these preachers : I found that having got the name of a Professor , I abhor'd to be guilty of any outward enormity , and was very forward to dispute and talk of Religion , and was usually very much affected in hearing and praying , and I us'd to complain of a naughty heart , and of the withdrawings of God if I were not so ; and I really thought my self in one of the highest forms of Religion ; but upon searching my heart , and strictly observing my self , I found I had most abominable vices reigning in my soul , particularly pride , covetousness , envy , and malice , censoriousness , disobedience to Superiors , and the like , then I knew that my Religion was artificial , void of inward life , and I was astonisht and affrighted at my sad condition ; I went to our Minister , whom I was convinc't God had set over me to instruct me , and that therefore I was most likely to have direction from God by him , I told him my condition , and askt him what I should do to profit by the word ? He most compassionately entertain'd me , though I had so slighted him and most gravely advis'd me . 1. That I would lay aside all pride and conceitedness , for God resists the proud , but gives grace to the humble ; want of doing this hath been a great reason why you have not profited by the word ; for you have not come with any design to learn from the Minister , but to be a judge whether he preacheth well or not ; you have not come as a Disciple to a Master , or as a child to a Father to be instructed ; but you lookt on the Minister not as Gods Ambassador , and in Christs stead , but as one to act a part , and say a lesson , and that his only end was to commend himself or please you , and therefore you us'd in hearing to observe whether you were pleas'd or not ; and after hearing did not consider what you had been taught , and what was your duty to do , but only did either commend or discommend the Preacher , was it not thus ? I told him I must acknowledge it was so , you must , proceeded he , lay aside this , the Pharisees were most unreachable by Christ , because so conceited of their Knowledge and Piety , they heard not to learn , but to judge , but the lower valleys are most refresht and made fruitful by rain's from Heav'n . Therefore be sensible ▪ that the Minister is Gods Ambassador , that the plainest truths are of greatest concernment , and therefore most to be taught by your Minister and learnt by you , consider them most , and be not ambitious after high speculations , and never reckon that you have learnt any truth enough , till you find it hath subdued you into obedience to it . I resolv'd to take his advice , and pray'd him to go on . 2. A second advice I would give you , quoth he ▪ is that you do not hear meerly to be efected and pleas'd , but make this the end both of your praying and hearing to live better ; so that when you hear the Minister speak against sin , imploy not your self to hear how he will acquit himselfe what notions , stories , gingles , phrases or elegancies he hath , but raise up thy hatred against that sin by all the evil he tells thee there is in it , and take and follow his advice how to resist and stand against it ; what ever duty thou hearest him preach of , let the reasons be brings to convince thee , 't is thy duty , make thee resolve to practice it , and follow the directions and helps he gives thee : Thou must hear thy Minister , not as we hear Musick , only to be pleas'd , but as a sick man doth a Physician ; in order to do what he is advis'd for his health . And not striving to practice what we hear , is the reason why the word no more profiteth ; for , said he , the spirit of God works upon us by us , and then only are we most likely to have the helps of Gods spirit , when we are endeavouring to do duties enjoyn'd ▪ there are two great benefits of the spirit , Light and Strength . 1. Light and conviction of our judgments and consciences , this we may expect in hearing and praying , but yet not unless we duly give up our minds to be taught by the spirit of God. The second is strength to do duties , and this the spirit gives us ordinarily , not in bare hearing and praying , but in doing those duties we heard and pray'd for grace to do , so that we are as the widdows cruise of oil then we have increase from God when pouring out , then more Talents given , when we improve what we have : so that thou must not hear and pray , and then wait till the spirit gives thee strength ; but as soon as thou hast heard what thou art to do , up and be doing , work out by salvation , for then , and not till then will God work in thee and help thee ; do thus , and I make no question but thou will profit by the word . Sir , said I , I must confess I have been defective in this , for I usually first expected impulses and a kind of force offer'd to my soul to do duties , and thought it in vain to attempt conquering a lust till I were so furnish'd , but you tell me I must first be striving e●se I can expect assistance , and that in striving strength most ordinarily comes . Have you any thing else you would advise me to ? 3. Yes ; said he , I would not have you live in any known sin , for that will estrange Gods holy spirit from you ; and I do earnestly advise you that you would nor trouble your head with the disputes of this age , which you can't understand neither is it needful , they being about trifles ; for whilst your thoughts and zeal are laid out about Ceremonies , Discipline , &c. by the cunning of the Devil you become careless of , and and heartless in your main concerns ; for trees that abound in Suckers are seldom fruitful . Had not you spent your time a great deal better in endeavouring to give God your heart in Common-Prayer , than in wrangling against it , which insensibly raiseth bitterness of spirit ? had it not been better to have learn'd to love , and as far as you could confcientiously to have obey'd your civil and spiritual Fathers and Governors , than to rail and rage against them , and scorn them ? is there not more of Christianity in hiding our Brothers infirmities , than in insulting over them ? is it not a great deal better for you to mind ▪ judgment , mercy , and faith , than to distract your thoughts with Mint , Annice , and Cummin ? I pray , said he , most affectionately with tears in his eyes , pity the poor Church that is wounded and torn in pieces , and no longer fill your head with those stories and complaints which the discontents of men suggest to you , but let this be your great care to be good and to live well ; And if you joyn to these things most hearty and fervent prayers to God for his blessing , who will most freely give his holy spirit to them that ask , I dare warrant that you will profit by attending upon the word . I did resolve to do as he had advised me , and though I found it at first difficult and another kind of work than I had bin us'd to , yet I find now it was the best advice that ever I had , and now can profit by any preacher that doth but preach truth ; because I do not concern my self so much with , who the man is , what party , or way he is of , what affections or elegancies he hath in is Sermon , as with the truths he taught , and what God by him commands me to do , and so I presently set upon practising of it , and I find that God is ready to help the diligent . But I must tell you I benefit by no man so much as our own Minister , who I observe preacheth alway , not that which may most please us and commend himself , as strangers are apt to do , especially those that live by the Benevolence of the people , but that which will do us most good ; and now I am no more inclinable to go from our own Church , than a temperate abstemious man is to go to feasts , who though he may now and then go with a friend , yet is quickly weary of it , and chooseth for constancy to feed at home . N. C. I hope I may get good by what you have told me , I will consider of it , and acquaint you with more of my mind hereafter . C. I pray Neighbour do , and lay aside prejudice which is utterly unteachable , and think not your self perfect in knowledge , which is a great fault of the Non-conformists ; how peremptorily will they blame Governors , as if Parliament and Counsel were but fools to them , and the Common people will so confidently decide Controversies , that they condemn all as unchristian that are not of their mind , and all that are , are ipso facto , the Saints and the Godly . I pray also consider how good and pleasant a thing it is for Brethren to live together in unity ; therefore St. Paul , 1 Cor. 1 , 10. Beseecheth us in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that we speak the same things , and that there be no divisions among us , but that we be perfectly joyned together in the same mind , and in the same judgment ; it seems they began to separate then , for St. Paul was the Minister and Apostle of the Corinthians , 1 Cor. 4. 15. and chap. 9. 2. but many of the Corinthians divided from him , and some followed Apollo , others Cephas or Peter , 1 Cor. 1. 12. though this was out of zeal , and as good designs as you can have , probably , because Apollo was an excellent Preacher , and Peter a zealous man , yet he calls them carnal for it , 1 Cor. 3. 3 , 4. I pray consider how great prejudice divisions do the Gospel , nothing makes any so unwilling to be a Member of any Society as their quarrels , and this certainly is a grand remora to the Heathen's turning Christians , because we no better agree among our selves , hence St. Paul , Phil. 2. 2 , 3. saith fulfil ye my joy , that ye be like minded , having the same love , being of one accord , of one mind , let nothing be done through strife or vain-glory , but in lowliness of mind let each , esteem other better than themselves . The Papists boast of the great harvest they have by our divisions , for the great argument they use is this , you see how the Protestants are divided , but we are all of one mind ; had you as much zeal for the credit of Christian Religion and the Protestant cause , as you have for your own Party , you would not do thus ; how great uncharitablness have you to us that will not worship God with us , but converse with us as if we were Heathens and Publicans ? were we not bound by the command of God to obey Superiors , and to submit to Governors , we would rather comply what we could with you , than that such a breach should continue , but seeing we are bound , and may not wound our consciences , and you are free to return , yea , have the same obligation upon you to h●●r in publick that we have , the schism must lie at your doors ; and what may be the end of it I dread to think , but will tell you that such divisions were the seeds of our late bloudy civil wars , and though you may intend no such thing , yet you see how it followed upon them ; and for Gods sake take heed of contributing any thing to it by cherishing such separations , least our own or our Children's bloud be spilt in a second war , and then it may be you will repent of your folly when 't is too late . It is sad there is so much Whoredom , Drunkenness , and Swearing , but these in themselves tend not half so much to the ruine of a Nation , as Divisions , Schisms , and Separations ; for Parties and Sects are as fewel , and discontents are as fire , and there wants nothing but some mischievous hand to lay them together , and to blow them up into a flame , most civil wars are thus rais'd . I pray God prevent my fears , and change yours and every such mans heart , that we may modestly and meekly submit to Governors , and live in love , and unity , and peace one with another , and the God of peace will be with us . Amen . FINIS .