Mr. Hobbs's state of nature considered in a dialogue between Philautus and Timothy to which are added five letters / from the author of the Grounds and occasions of the contempt of the clergy. Eachard, John, 1636?-1697. 1672 Approx. 330 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 162 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-07 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A39266 Wing E57 ESTC R24940 08700630 ocm 08700630 41569 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A39266) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41569) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1258:18) Mr. Hobbs's state of nature considered in a dialogue between Philautus and Timothy to which are added five letters / from the author of the Grounds and occasions of the contempt of the clergy. Eachard, John, 1636?-1697. [22], 165, 123 p. Printed by E.T. and R.H. for Nath. Brooke, London : 1672. "Epistle dedicatory" signed: J.E. Each of the five letters has a special t.p. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Hobbes, Thomas, 1588-1679. Clergy -- Great Britain. 2003-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-04 Rina Kor Sampled and proofread 2003-04 Rina Kor Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion M r HOBBS'S State of Nature Considered , In a Dialogue BETWEEN Philautus and Timothy . To which are Added FIVE LETTERS From the AUTHOR of the GROUNDS , and OCCASIONS of the CONTEMPT OF THE CLERGY . London , Printed by E. T. and R. H. for Nath. Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange , 1672. To the most Reverend Father in God , GILBERT by Divine Providence Lord Archbishop of CANTERBURY , PRIMATE of all England and METROPOLITAN : and one of His MAJESTIES most Honourable Privy Council , &c. May it please your Grace , ALthough for several reasons I ought in duty to lay all my endeavours at your Graces feet , and beg your acceptance of them ; yet I was the more encourag'd to make this address , because the subiect seemes naturally to have recourse to your Graces Protection . For the same Divine Providence that has made your Grace Father of the Church , has made you also Guardian of Humane Nature . Which ( as your Grace well knows ) has been so vilely aspersed and persecuted by our Adversarie's malicious suggestions , that he is willing indeed to suffer such a word as man still to remain amongst us , but what was alwayes meant , and design'd thereby , he has endeavoured to chase quite out of the world . The vindication therefore of Humane Nature could not but seek for protection from that great example of humanity ; whose constant practice doth alone abundantly confute all the slanderers of mankind . If Mr. Hobbs had been pleased to have given only a History or Roll of the unjust or unfaithfull ; there would not then have been such occasion to importune your Graces favouring such attempts as this . But when he teaches that cheating is not only according to reason , but that it is the first principle and dictate thereof ; for the very credit of being on reason's side , people shall count themselves engaged to be Knaves . And therefore I have persumed to offer to your Graces Patronage this small discourse : wherein I have endeavoured to shew that those that are wicked and unrighteous are not such by Reason , or any advice of Humane Nature , but onely because they have a mind to be so . And I am not altogether discourag'd from thinking , that by this consideration of Mr. Hobbs's State of Nature , and my Introduction thereunto it may appear to your Grace , that it would not have been an impossible thing to have said somewhat to the rest of his writings , wherein he differs from what is generally believed . But for me to go about to inform your Grace of the folly or inconveniences of Mr Hobbs's principles ; would be next unto his undertaking to read lectures to all mankind . Your Grace cannot but understand , that the matters insisted on in this Dialogue , have been often recommended to the protection of great Persons , and by those of eminent worth and Learning : and if there be any reason demanded why this comes so late from me ; I have nothing to offer in excuse , either to your Grace , or those that writ before me . But yet however from some experience of your Graces favours towards me , what I have performed , I hope may not be altogether rejected : notwithstanding the manner of it , being to appearance not so grave and solid , does a little dishearten me . But , since Mr. Hobbs by affected garbs of speech , by a starch'd Mathematical method , by counterfeit appearances of novelty and singularity , by magisterial haughtinesse , confidence and the like had cheated some people into a vast opinion of himself , and into a beliefe of things very dangerous and false ; I did presume , with your Graces pardon , to think his writings so fond and extravagant , as not to merit being opposed in good earnest : and thereupon I was very loth to give them too much respect , and add undue weight to them by a solemn and serious confutation . And I hope my Dialogue will not find the less acceptance with your Grace for those Letters which follow after : for although some are loth to believe the first Letters to be innocent and useful ( being a little troublesome and uneasie to their own humour ) yet your Grace , I hope , is satisfied that the Author of them , did heartily therein study the credit and advantage of the Church , and that our Clergy would certainly be better reputed and more serviceable , were it possible they all could be , as learned and as bountiful as your Grace . What I have now perform'd , I humbly submit to your Graces favourable judgement ; desiring that it may be accepted of , as an expression of most dutyfull and gratefull observance from Your Graces in all Duty and Service most devoted . I. E. Decemb. 20. 1671. THE PREFACE TO THE READER . Reader , THe design of this Preface is not to advise , or encourage thee to read what follows ; for I should not take it well my self to be so drawn in : but if thou chancest to look into it , and be not already acquainted with Mr. Hobbs's state of nature this is to let thee know , that thereby is to be understood a certain supposed time , in which it was just and lawful for every man to hang , draw , and quarter , whom he pleased , when he pleased , and after what manner he pleased ; and to get , possess , use and enjoy whatever he had a mind to : And the reason of this so large a Charter , was because it was supposed that these people had not as yet any ways abridged themselves of their utmost liberty , by any voluntary bargains , or agreements amongst themselves ; neither could they be restrained by any Humane Laws , because the Magistrate was not as yet chosen . In this Dialogue therefore ( because Mr. Hobbs shall not say that I am stingy ) thou wilt find , Reader , that with him I have allowed ( though there 's very small reason for 't ) such a time or state , wherein people came into the World ( after his own humour ) without being obliged either to God , Parents , Friends , Midwifes , or Publick Magistrate , and yet notwithstanding I have endeavoured to make out ( how far or how well that 's no matter ) that those that are feigned to be in this condition , have all such a natural right to their own lives , and what is thereunto convenient , that it is perfectly unjust and unreasonable for any one of them to take his utmost advantage , and to do whatever he thinks he is able , or pleases him best . Thou mightest possibly expect , after I had given each of the four Inhabitants of the Isle of Pines a right to the fourth part ( which thou dost not deserve to understand unless thou readest the Book ) that I should have proceeded , and set out every man's share : and so have answered to Mr. Hobbs's sixth Article , Cap. 1. de Cive . Wherein he saies , that a great and necessary occasion of quarrelling and war is , that several men oftimes have a desire to the same thing ; which thing if it happens not to be capable of being divided , or enjoyed in Common , they must needs draw and fight for 't : Instead of which , he should have said ; if these men chance to be mad , or void of reason , it is possible they may fight for 't : For being that every one of them have an equal right to this same , that is in controversie , they may either compound for it as to its value , or decide it by Lot , or some other way that reason may direct ( which is a Law of reason and humane Nature , and not meerly positive , because it is in Law Books . ) Neither did I proceed to shew what kind of Government they fix'd upon ; or how long they continned in that even condition ; or how every one of them thrived . For perhaps before the year ran round , Roger might fuddle , or game away all his Estate ; or his Cattle might all dy , and he forc'd to sell Land to get more Stock . Neither have I told you what was Tumbler's first Complement to Towser , nor what was Towser's reparty ; nor whether they bow'd only half way , or down to the ground ; nor which leg the one and t'other drew back . Which , had I intended an absolute discourse , should not have been omitted . All that I shall venture to say is this , that I hope it may appear to three or four , ( for I durst not presume to convert many ) that Mr. Hobbs is not such a great discoverer and afforder of new things as his own Prefaces and his Titles to Books would make thee believe : Neither is he so great a dispeller of clouds , but that thou mayst buy an ell of them under a Mark. Neither is Humane Nature ( or reason ) so very vile and raskally , as he writes his own to be , nor his account of it altogether so demonstrative , as Euclid . There 's nothing now wanting , Reader , but only to give thee a hundred and fifty reasons why I writ this ; and tell thee of most wonderful things that happen'd , or else it had been much better . Thou mayst read on , if thou pleasest : if thou wilt not , thou mayst let it alone ; however thou art heartily wellcome thus far . A Dialogue BETWEEN Timothy and Philautus . Tim. WELL met Philautus , how does your best self this morning : What , stout and hearty ? Phi. I take care of my self , Sir , my body is pretty well , I thank you . Tim. Then all is well , I suppose . Phi. Yes truly in my opinion , all is well , when that is so . Tim. In your opinion ? Why : doe not all count that well which you count well : or are you a man by your self ? Phi. I am just what you see me to be . But some people I find , have two men to take care of ; an outward man , and an inward man : for my part . I am able to maintain but one ; and if I can shift it , that shall take no hurt , for want of looking after . But I begg your pardon , Sir , for I know you not . Tim. No matter for that : come , shall we take a turn or two in the Walks ? Phi. No , I thank you , unless I knew your tricks better : you may chance to get behind me , and bite me by the Legs . Let them take a turn with you that have not search'd into the fundamental Laws of humane nature , and the first rise of Cities and Societies . I know better things than to trust my self with one that I never saw before . I have but one body , and I desire to carry it home all to my chamber . Tim. You had better I profess , have no body at all ; or compound to be kick'd and beaten twice a day ; than to be thus dismally tortur'd , and solicitous about an old rotten carcase . Phi. Come , come : you talk like a young man. Let me tell you the body is a very precious thing : and when you can make me believe otherwise , who have poised Kingdoms , counted up all the advantages of bodily strength , and am throughly acquainted with all the humours and passions of mankind , then will I stay with you , and venture a kicking . And so farewell . Tim. I beseech you , Sir , stay a little : upon my honour I intend nothing but a walk , and civill discourse . Phi. I know no honour any man has but an acknowledgement of his power and greatness : So that all the security that I have that you will not injure me is , that you can certainly do it , if you have a mind to 't . And therefore , I pray , doe so much as take your honour along with you into that other walk , or else I shall crie out murder . I don't care for trusting my self with unknown honour . Tim. Then as I am a Gentleman , and my name is Timothy , I doe not intend you the least mischief . Phi. What , Sir , doe you take me for a fool ? doe not I know that a Gentleman is one that keeps a man to quarrel , fight , beat and abuse ? You must not think to catch old Birds with Chaffe . And therefore once more farewell M r Timothy , if your name be so . Tim. I pray , Sir , be not gon yet ; upon my honesty and as I am a Christian you shall suffer no hurt . Phi. Now indeed you have mended the business much : what , is there ever an Act of Parliament against your beating me particularly ? and if there be , where 's the Constable , to put it in execution ? Tim. Well : I see I must discover my self , or nothing is to be done : I am , Sir , to put you out of all doubt then , a relation of a great friend of yours . Doe you know this Picture , Sir● Phi. Indeed I think I did once almost see some such thing or something a little like it , in his study , a great while ago , if my eyes , memory , and the rest of my faculties doe not ●ail me . Tim. So then , now I hope you are past all feares . Therefore if you will , we 'l walk towards Lambs Conduit : there 's better aire . Phi. I profess , Sir , you make m● shake most horribly . There 's a word indeed next one 's heart ! I much question whether I shall eat again these two dayes . If you 'l forbear all such language , and keep close to your own side , and not look behind you , I 'le venture to take two or three turnes with you : otherwise I shall leave your company forthwith . Tim. Most certainly , Philautus , you are the most wary , mistrustful and suspicious creature , now living upon the face of the whole earth . Phi. I thank my Stars , I have had some time to look into Histories : and I have made some observations of my own : and I find they very much tend to my good and welfare . In short , I think I know as well as another , what man can doe , and what is his full value . Tim. Surely you are not made of the ordinary mortal mould , but of some peculiar thin and brittle stuff ; or else you would never talk thus . Phi. Your pleasure for that . I only say what I said before ; I think , I know what is that which all wise men ought to cherish , refresh , make much of , love and regard . Tim. Still , Philautus , I understand you not . What , have you been often affronted , abused , choused , ●repann'd , flung down stairs , tossed in a blanket — Phi. No , I 'le assure thee , Tim , I have alwayes kept ( as they say ) out of harme's way , as much as could be : especially since I studied morals , and understood the true price of a whole man. Tim. What should be the business then ? is it that you are descended of some very timorous family ; or was your mother buried alive , with two sucking children ? Come , Sir , be free : for I am confident there must be some occasion or other of this so very great jealousie , and mistrustfullness of yours . Phi. Then as a secret , Tim , I must tell thee , that men nuturally are all ●●venous and currish , of a very snarling and biting nature ; to be short , they are in themselves mere Wolves , Tygers and Centaures . Tim. Heavens forbid ! what are you and I Wolves , Tygers and Centaures . Phi. You may start at it for the present , but when you have read as much , observ'd as much , and considered as much , as I , you 'l find it to be as true , as that I have a pair of boots . Tim. Methinks honest Tim has no mind at all to be a Centaure ; he had much rather be a sheep , a Pigeon , a Lark or any such pretty tame thing , if you can afford it . And now in the name of all that 's good , I hope you doe not mistake and call that humane nature in generall , which is only your own ; measuring all moral actions thereby , and pronouncing that all mens teeth are very long and sharp , because you find your own to be so . Phi. Why should you suspect me to be more peevish , surly , and worse natur'd than other men , and so recommend or impose my own temper and inclinations upon the world as a general standard ? Tim. I am very loath , Philautus , to accuse any man of bad nature : it being such a great bundle of mischief in it self , and so very troublesome to the Comon-wealth . But when I find one so very tender and studious of his own wellfare and pleasure , so little concern'd for any mans good but his own , so great an admirer of his own humour and opinions , so ready to call things demonstrations that doe not at all , or very weakly prove , and so apt to vilifie and under-value , to hate and raile at three quarters of the Cr●ation , ( if they stand in his way and give him not due honour and respect ) I am very much afraid that such a●one when he comes to talk of the general disposition of mankind , of the best and most fundamental lawes of life , government and Religion , will consult a little too much his own sweet Elephants tooth , and the wamblings of his own dear bowels . Phi. I shall not now stand to vindicate , much less boost of my own temper . It is well known that I have kept company with Gentlemen , and Persons of Honour ; and they are able to judge what humour and carriage is decent and allowable better than all the Timothies in the Nation . I prethee , Tim , What 's the difference between a Bustard and a Chevin ? Tim. I love our Nation , and all men in it so well , that I wish they had given you less entertainment ; it had been more for their honour and credit ; and the good of this Realm . Phi. That is somewhat enviously said . I hope you 'l give people leave to keep the best and most improving Company : Would you have them die in mistakes , and not listen to those that lay down the plainest Truths , give best proof of them , and in the purest English. Tim. Nay , hold you there ; be not proud of your company , Proselytes and discoveries : for I ●carce know one person of sobriety and parts in the whole Nation , that is hea●titly of your opinion , in any thing wherein you differ from what is commonly taught and received : for most of those that talk over those places of your Books , wherein you are singular , do it either out of humour , or because they are already debauch'd , or intend to be so , as soon as they can shake off all modesty and good nature , and can furnish themselves with some of your little slender Philosophical pretences to be wicked . Phil. Then indeed I have spent my time finely , and studied to much purpose . But methinks , Tim , thou art very peremptory for one of thy years . It becomes gray haires , and a staff to lean on , to be thus dogmatical . Tim. I care not for that ; for if need be , I can be peremptory and do●matical without a staff ; especially when I meet with one that is so incurably immodest . Phi. What then , will you maintain that I have discovered nothing at all ? Is nothing true that I have said in my several Books ? I am sure my Works have sold very well , and have been generally read and admir'd . And I know what Mersennus and Gassendus have said concerning my Book de Cive ; but I shall not speak of that now . Tim. And , to say nothing now of Mersennus : I know what people have said of Gassendus ; but I shall let that go also now . Phi. But surely you cannot deny but there is somewhat true and considerable in my Writings . Tim. O doubtless a great deal of them is true ; but that which is so , is none of yours ; but common acknowledg'd things new phrased , and trim'd up with the words power , fear , City , transferring of right , and the like ; and such is most of that part of your Book , called Dominion ; which chiefly consists of such things as have been said these thousand years , and would follow from any other Principles , as well as yours . Phi. You may talk what you will , and if I were sure you would not beat me , I 'd tell you right down that you lye . Tim. Do so ; that 's as good for me as your humble servant : but I go on , and say , that Monarchy is the best Government ; that it is the duty of Princes to respect the common benefit of many , not the peculiar interest of this or that man ; that Eloquence without discretion is troublesome in a Common-wealth ; that he that has power to make Laws , should take care to have them known ; that to have Souldiers , Arms , Garrisons , and money in readiness in times of Peace is necessary for the peoples defence , and a thousand such things I might repeat out of the forementioned place , which were true many Ages before Philautus was born , and will be , let a man be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Mouse or Lion. But it is an easie matter to scatter up and down some little insinuations of the state of nature , self preservation , and such like fundamental phrases , which to those that do but little attend , shall seem to make all hang close together . Phi. Why do you only say seem , & c ? I perceive now that you are not only very confident , but spightful too , and have a mind to lessen my credit . Tim. No indeed ; I do not envy you in the least ; but I very much wonder at those that will disparage themselves so much , as to be led away with any such small and manifest cheats : and if you 'l promise me not to be dejected ( which I think I need not much fear ; for I never knew a man so much beyond all humiliation in my life ; ) I 'le briefly shew you the chief of those things , by which you became famous . But hold , Sir , we forgot to look underneath the bench ; there may lie a Wolf that may quite spoil us . Phi. Say you so ? Tim. Come , come , Sir , no hurt at all : I pray sit down again : I had only a mind to see how nimble you were ; I perceive you jump very well for an old man ; and therefore I proceed , and say in the first place , that one way by which you got a kind of a name amongst some easie sort of people , was by crowding into your Book all that you could pick out of Civil Law , Politicks , and Morals : and then jumbling alltogether ( as was before hinted ) with frequent mention of power , fear , self defence , and the like ; as if it had been all your own . Phi. This is very pertly said , if you could make it good . Tim. 'T is so very plain , as I need not : however if any body doubts of it , let him but read over your eighth and ninth Chapters of Dominion , which contain the Rights of Lords over their servants , and of Parents over their children ; and if he find any thing considerable more than what is commonly delivered in the ordinary Civil Law-Books upon that occasion , viz. de potestate Parent●m & Dominoru●● ( except it be that a great Family is a Kingdom , and a little Kingdom a Family ) I 'le become an earnest spreader of your fame , and have you recorded for a great discoverer . And so in like manner it might be easily shewn , how all the rest ( so much of it as is true ) is the very same with the old plain Dunstable stuff that commonly occurrs in those that have treated of Policy and Morality : in so much , that I do not question , but that poor despicable Eustachius may come in for a good share . Now , Philautus , because it has so happened that some young Gentlemen have not been at leisure to look much into Machiavel , Iustinian , and such like Books ; but yet , for no good reasons have been tempted to read yours ; these presently are ready to pronounce you the prodigy of the Age , and as very a deviser , as if you had found out gun-powder , or printing . Phi. If thou hast a mind to rail , Tim , I advise thee to stay till thou hast discretion to do it . What wouldest thou expect in a discourse of Government , a trap to catch Sun-beams , or a purse-net for the Moon ? I grant , that the chief heads I insist on , have been largely treated on by others : but the method , contrivance and phrase is all my own ; do so much as consider of that poor Tim. Tim. I need not consider of it now , because I have done it oftimes heretofore ; and it puts me in mind of another thing , by which you have cheated some into an opinion of you , viz. You take old common things , and call them by new affected names , and then put them off for discoveries . Phi. I profess , Tim , I expect to see thee hang'd some time or other for thy crossness : Where is it that I do any such thing ? Tim. If I were at leasure , I could shew you an hundred several places : What think you , Philautus , of the Scriptures being the word of God ? Phi. I think , as others do , that they are . Tim. What need then was there of that , in your Third Chapter de Cive ; the Sacred Scripture is the Speech of God commanding over all things by greatest right ? It sounds , I must confess , somewhat statelily : So does that in your Leviathan , p. 1● . ) the general use of speech is to transfer our mental discourse into verbal ; or the train of our thought into a train of words : And also that ; Religion conteins the Laws of the Kingdom of God : It had been nothing to have said that Religion teaches how God will be serv'd ; but the Kingdom of God is a new Notion , if the word Law does but lie near at hand : So to have said that somnia sunt phantasmata dormientium , or that Tempus was Phantasma corporis , &c. had been old : but go thus ; Phantasmata dormientium appello somnia , and Phantasma corporis , &c. appello tempus : and then by vertue of the word appello , and the stately placing of it , it becomes all your own . Phi. And is not appello a good word , you Timothy sause-box ? I cannot forbea● . Tim. Yes , may it please your worship , 't is almost as good as pronuncio ; but it is never a whit the better for standing at the latter end of a sentence ( which I find an hundred times over in your Books ) only to disguise a little what every body has said . Phi. I do very much wonder , Tim , where thou didst pick up all this impudence , being so young . Tim. My Grandam , Sir , I thank her , gave me a little , and wished me to use it upon occasion ; but most of it I got by keeping company with some of your admirers . Phi. Surely thou wilt go to the Devil , if any such thing there be . Tim. But before I go , Sir , I must desire those that are not satisfied concerning the truth of what I just now mentioned , to look a little into your Logick ; and if they do not there find a whole Book full of nothing but new words ; I 'le promise you to be very towardly for the future , and as modest as the meekest of your disciples : and therefore , in the first place , I do , in your name , decree , that in all following Ages Logick shall not be called Logick , but Computation ; because that ratiocinor signifies not only to reason , but to count or reckon ; and rationes the same with computa : and therefore let the art of reasoning be called the art of computation or counting : of which there be two parts ; addition and substraction ; to add being all one as to affirm , and to substract all one as to deny from whence also I do establish a Syllogisme to be nothing else but the collection of a Summ , or aggregate : the major and minor Propositions being the particulars , and the Conclusion the summ or aggregate of those particulars . Phi. And what fault can you find with all this ? is it not all new ? did ever any of the Philosophers say so before ? Tim. No truly ; nor was there ever any need that they should say so : for let people call the two first Propositions either plainly Propositions , or Ingredients or Elements , or Premises , or Principles , or Preambles , or Prologues , or go befores , or particulars , or any thing else , so that I do but understand their meaning , and Timothy is as well contented as any man alive . Phi. Why then do you snear , as if you dislik'd my Logick ? Tim. 'T is a most excellent computation as ever was written : There 's a definition of causa ( which in the second Page we are learnt to call generation ) that is alone worth a pound at least ; viz. Causaest summa sive aggregatum accidentium omnium tam in agentibus , quam in patiente , ad propositum effectum concurrentium , quibus omnibus existentibus effectum non existere , vel quolibet eorum uno absente existere , intelligi non potest . A Cause is a certain pack or aggregate of trangams , which being all packed up and chorded close together , they may then truly be said in Law to constitute a compleat and essential pack : but if any one trangam be taken out or missing , the pack then presently loses its packishness , and cannot any longer be said to be a pack . Phi. And now what aile you with this definition ? Is not the true notion and perfect Idaea of a cause very necessary ? and is not this , that I have laid down , full , exact , and compleat ? Tim. So very full , Sir , that if you had gon on but a little further , it would have served for a Catalogue of the great Turk's Dominions : but I hope you will not take it ill , if I forget it : because I promised my self long ago to that little short Gentleman — cujus vi res est . You have also , Sir , another very magnificent one of a Proposition ; which I care not much if I bestow upon the Emperour : viz. Propositio est oratio constans ex duobus nominibus copulatis , quâ significat is qui loquitur , concipere se , nomen posterius ejusdem rei nomen esse , cujus est nomen prius ; which agrees very well with what Zacutus saies in his Treatise of a Spoon , which he thus defines . Instrumentum quoddam concavo-convexum , quo posito in atiquod , in quo aliud quo ddam diversum à posito , ante positum fuit , & retro posito in os ponentis , concipitur is , qui posuit primum positum in secundum , ex his positis aliquid concludere . These and the like are only for huge Potentates : but if any private Gentleman has a mind to be informed in the just , adaequate and perfect conception of an interrogation and a request , let him take them thus : Interrogationes sunt orationes quae desiderium significant cognoscendi ; as , what 's a clock ? Precationes sunt orationes quae desideriū significant aliquid habendi ; as , give me an apple . Phi. Surely thou art broken loose out of Hell , to quarrel thus upon no grounds . What is it that thou would'st have in a Logick ? Tim. Those that have nothing else to do but to put in a few new phrases ( under pretence of notions and discoveries ) and to alter perhaps the place of two or three Chapters , I would not have them trouble the world with Logick , or any thing else . For as my Lord Bacon wisely observes , nothing has more hindred the growth of Learning than peoples studying of new words , and spending their time in chaptring , modelling , and marshalling of Sciences . Phi. Then it seems I must learn of you how to spend my time . What , Tim , would'st thou have me goe to School again ? Tim. You may doe as you will for that ; but you know Doctor Wallis thought you had sufficient need of it long ago . Phi. Come , Tim , I prethee tell me one thing , and tell me true : hast not thou been lately amongst some of my Scholars , and lamentably baffled and run down by them ? and does not this make thee fret and fume , and dislike all that I have written ? I am confident , so it is : for otherwise thou couldst not but be of their opinion , who discern and declare , that they never perceiv'd such connexion of things , and such close argning , as I have in all things given the world an instance of . Tim. You have now said that which I wish'd and watch'd for : Because it gives me opportunity of mentioning another device you make use of to deceive people , and get applause ; viz. you get together a company of words , such as power , fear , and the like ( as was said before ) and thrust these into every page upon one pretence or other ; and then you call this connexion , and boast ( as you doe in your Preface de Cive ) that there is but one thing in all your Book , which you have not demonstrated . Phi. I hope you will not betray your judgment so much , as to find fault with my language , which all the world admire : Are there any words more truly English and natural than power , fear , &c. Tim. Questionless they are very good words , when rightly made use of : but to hale them in where there is no need at all , meerly to carry on the great work of power and fear , and by a forc'd repetition thereof , to make thence a seeming connexion ( with reverence be it spoken ) is very idle and impertinent . It seemes to me to savour very much of their humours , who fall wofully in love with some certain numbers . One he is sorely smitten with the complexion and features of the number four . And so he calls presently for his four Inns of Courts , his four Terms , his four seasons of the year , and abundance of fours besides . Nay , the senses are also his ; for smelling is only a gentiler way of feeding . Another tears his haire , and is raving mad for the number three : and then the Inner Temple and Middle are the same , for they are both Temples ; Easter Term and Trinity Term differ but a few days ; Spring and Autumn are all one , and rather than he 'l acknowledge above three senses , he 'l split his mouth up to his ears . Phi. what dost think , Tim , that I have nothing else to doe , but to hear thee tattle over a company of foppish Similitudes ? if thou hast a mind to talk , child , speak sence , if thou canst ; and learn of me to reason closely . Tim. You are a most speciall pattern for reasoning indeed : one may plainly see that , by what you say in the tenth Chapter of your Leviathan , and in the eighth of your Humane nature ; where you fall into a great rapture of the excellencies of power ; making every thing in the whole world that is good , worthy and honourable , to be power : and nothing is to be valued or respected but upon the accompt of power . Phi. And is not power a very good thing ? Tim. A most excellent thing ! I know nothing like it but the Philophers stone : for it does all things , and is all things , either at present , or heretofore , or afterward . Thus Beauty is honourable , as a precedent sign of power generative : and actions proceeding from strength are honourable , as signs consequent of power motive . Now if faculty had come in there instead of power , it would not have done so well . Again , riches are honourable as signs of the power that acquired them ; & gifts , cost , & magnificence of houses are honourable , &c. as signes of riches . A Mathematician is honourable because if he brings his knowledg into practice , he is able to raise powerful fortifications , and to make powerful engines and instruments of war. A prudent man is honourable , because he is powerfull in advice : and a person of good natural wit , and judgment is honourable , because it signifies strong parts and powers . In short , Sir , I perceive there is nothing either in actions or speeches , in Arts or Sciences , in wit or judgment , in man , woman or child that is good & valuable , but it is all upon the accompt of power . Phi. I defy thee , if thou goest about to make any thing that I have said ridiculous . Tim. No : I need not : because you have already done it to my hand ; for with such tricks and devices as these , I 'le undertake to make a flageolet the most dreadfull and powerful thing upon the face of the whole earth . For it either shall be powerful in it self , or recommend me to the favour of those that have power , or be a defence against power , or it shall hire and purchase power , or be in the road to power , or be in the road to power , or a signe of powe● or a sign of somewhat that is a sign of power . And such things as these , Philautus , you call close connexion , and demonstration , which are nothing else but a company of small cheats , and jingling fetches . Phi. Before I goe any further , Tim , I doe pronounce thee to be the most saucy of all that belong to the whole race of mankind . For thou railest at a venture ; and dost only skip up and down my writings , as if thou didst intend to pick my pocket . If thou resolvest to continue in this Humour , and to think thy self worthy to speak in my ancient and Philosophical presence , let 's pitch upon some fundamental point , such as , Status naturae est status belli ; and thou shalt see that thou art ten times more an Owle , than I am a cheat and Iingler . Tim. And I pray , Sir , may I be so bold , which side doe you intend to hold ? Phi. Which side ? that 's a question very fit indeed for a Timothy to ask . I hold that side that all Wise , Sage , Learned and Discreet men in the whole world doe hold . Tim. I am sorry , Sir , that I have disturbed you : but I must pray once again to know which that is . Phi. I am asham'd to tell thee : It is such a very silly question . I doe hold then , that all men naturally are Bears , Dragons , Lyons , Wolves , Rogues , Raskalls — Tim. I beseech you , Sir , hold no more : there 's enough for any one man to hold . I remember , Philautus , you told me ā while ago that all men by nature were doggish , spightfull and treacherous . But I thought you had only said it , because you found your self so inclin'd , or in jest to scare me . Phi. What dost think that I studied fourty or fifty years ; only to find out and maintain a jest ? dost think that the happiness and security of all the Kingdoms of the Earth depend upon a jest ? Thou art a very pretty fellow to discourse withall indeed ! Tim. I pray , Sir , by your favour , how came it about that it was not found out by former Philosophers that all men as well as your self , are naturally brutish , and ravenous ? Phi. I wonder , you 'l come over so often with as well as your self , when I have so plainly told you , that it is naturally so with all men . Tim. Nay , Sir , be not angry ; I have so often heard an old story of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and of the great worth of Pythagoras , Plato , Aristotle , Epictetus , and Tully , that I much wonder at your Doctrine . Phi. Then , upon my word , you have heard a very story of a tub , and of a company of children , fools , sotts , and dunces . Tim. Enough , enough . Phi. But I say , not enough : And if you 'l hold your prating , I 'le shew you how it came about , that the morals and politicks that have been written since the creation ( as they call it ) of the world , were not all worth a rush , till I set forth mine . Tim. I 'le not speak again this half hour , if you 'l but make out this handsomly . Phi. It was thus then : they went in a wrong method , they took things for granted that were lyes , and did not so much as consult common History and experience . Tim. I profess , Philautus , this seems to go to the v●ry bottom of the business . I long to hear this as much as ever poor child did for the teat : in the first place , you say , they did not use a right method : wherein , I pray , did they faile ? Phi. They should have done as I did ; they should have search'd into the humours , dispositions , passions , and heart of mankind . Tim. And did you , Sir , find there written Status naturae est status belli : as 't is said Calis was upon Queen Marie's ? Phi. I perceive thou beginnest to prate again . Hast thou seen a little Book of mine called Humane Nature . Tim. Yes , I think so . Phi. You may easily know it ; 't is called Humane Nature , or the fundamental Elements of Policy . Tim. 'T is so : and you might have call'd it as well Tu qu●que , or the jealous Lovers , or the fundamental Lawes of catching of Quailes , as of Policy . Phi. Did you not promise me to be modest , and 〈◊〉 to prate ? does this become you ? goe home and look in the glass . Tim. Why ? have you discoursed me into a Bear ? I tell you , Sir , I have read over that same little Book called Humane Nature ; and whereas you 'd make the Reader believe , by the title , that he should find such strange fundamentals of Policy , and ( as you there add ) according to philosophical principles not commonly known or asserted ; there 's not a word of any more fundamentals , than is to be found in Iack Seton , Stierius or Magirus ; besides some small mater that was shirk'd up in France from some of Cartes's acquaintance , and spoyled in the telling . I say , as for all the rest , Philautus , it is as common , as the Kings high way ; only according to you usual manner , you labour much to disguise it with your own phrases , and to displace words to cheat children . Phi. Why doe you talk thus ? Tim. For no reason at all but only because it is true . Thus we know that old Arstotle , and his dull soakers understood no further of the great mysteries of the senses , and their several objects ; but only bluntly to say , that sense was a kind of knowledge occas●oned by some outward thing , &c. and that an object is a thing that causes that knowledge : and that colour is the object of the eye , and that sound is the object of the ear . But when Philautus comes to Town , he brings us news to purpose : informing us , that all conception proceeds from the action of the thing it self , whereof it is the conception ; and when the action is present , the conception it produceth is called sense : ( there called stands in the right place ) and the thing by whose action the same is produced , is Called the object of the sense . ( That 's well placed again : ) And that by sight we have a conception of colour , which is all the notice and knowledge the object imparteth to us of its nature by the eye . This ravishes ! and by hearing we have a conception called sound , which is all the knowledge we have of the quality of the object from the ear . Now who would not immediately spurr forth as far as Dover to meet a Philosopher that should bring home such rarities as these . Phi. if thou shouldst set out , Tim , thou wouldst be set in the stocks , before thou gettest to Rochester bridge for undervaluing worth . Tim. You talk , Philautus , of your Humane Nature containing the Elements of Policy ; there 's one cunning reflexion ( p. 5. ) concerning imagination , which is so full of novelty and subtilty , that it is enough alone to set up a man for chief Minister of State , viz. that the absence or destruction of things once imagined , doth not cause the absence or destruction of the imagination it self . Phi. Why , does it ? Tim. No : For suppose I have a House in Cheapside , which I have sometimes seen , and sometimes imagined ; according as I was best at leasure ; and this house , upon a day , either runs away from me or I from that ; yet still I may phansy my self trading in my own shop , and eating in my own House : nay though it should be burnt down to the very ground ; yet for a need I can make shift once or twice a year to phansie it still standing , or at least to wish that it were . And surely upon this is founded that old friendly saying , viz. though absent in body , yet present in mind . Phi. And is it not a good saying ? Tim. Yes , it is pretty good , but nothing near so enlightning as your enlargement thereupon . For by that you make out the whole business to be as plain as can be : and so you doe another thing , which I have often wondred at . I have seen sometimes a man set up his staffe in the middle of a great field , and a while after , he has gon back , and put up a Hare . I had a kind of a ghessing how this might possibly be ; but durst never be confident , till I was made happy by that ample and satisfactory definition you give of a mark p. 44. A mark ( say you ) is a sensible object which a man erecteth volutarily to himself , to the end to remember thereby somewhat past , when the same is objected to his sense again . Phi. Why doe you laugh , Tim ? there 's nothing left out , is there ? Tim. Not in the least : it will doe , I 'le undertake , for the tallest May-pole in the whole Nation . Phi. But for all that I am confident , Tim , that thou dost not approve of it throughly . Tim. I must not , Sir , lay out all my approbation hereupon ; because there 's abundance more of such fine things ( were I at leasure to look them out ) that doe also highly deserve to be approved of . Who would not save a good large corner of his heart , for such an accurate accompt as you give ( p. 35. ) of an experiment , viz. the remembrance of succession of one thing to another , that is , of what antecedent has been followed by what Consequent , is Called an experiment . As if I put my finger into a Pike's mouth , to see if he can bite ; my finger is the Antecedent , and if he bites , there 's a Consequent for my Antecedent : which , I suppose , Philautus , I should remember , and according to your directions call it an experiment . I hope also that I shall never forget what you tell me p. 80. where speaking of Musick and sounds you lay down this ●dmirable and standing de●inition of an aire , viz. an aire is a pleasure of sounds , which consisteth in consequence of one note after another , diversified both by accent and measure . Phi. Surely , Tim , thou beginnest to be mad : is it not very just , and very punctual ? Tim. Truly , Sir , I know nothing comparable to it , and what you said before about an experiment , for absolute exactness , except it be what the above mentioned Zacutus says concerning a teame of Links in his sixth Chapter of minc'd meats : a Teame of Linkes ( says he ) is a certain train of oblong termes , where the consequent of the first is concatenated to the antecedent of the second , and the consequent of the second to the antecedent of the third , &c. So that every terme , in the whole train , is both antecedent and consequent . Phi. You don't seem to like these same antecedents and consequents , Tim. Tim. A little of them , Sir , now and then I like very well , especially when they are brought in so naturally as they are by Zacutus . But when any such words are needlessly forced upon me , I have enough of them for I know not how long after . I once , Sir , got such an horrible surfeit with a long story of Consequences , in a Scheme of yours concerning the Sciences ( Lev. p. 40. ) that my stomach has scarce stood right towards Consequences ever since . Phi. What , doe you find fault to see all kind of knowledge lie fairely before your eyes ? Tim. I have seen it Sir , several times , but all the art is in the catching : and I count my self never a whit the nearer , for being told , as I am there by you ; that Science is the knowledge of all kind of Consequences : which is also called Philosophy . And Consequences from the accidents of bodys natural is called natural philosophy . And Consequences from accidents of politick bodies , is called Politicks or civil philosophy . And Consequences from the stars , Astronomy : Consequences from the Earth , Geography : Consequences from vision , Opticks : Consequences from sounds , Musick . And so Consequences from the rest are to be called the rest . I profess Philautus , These same Consequences did so terribly stick in my head , that for a long while after , I was ready to call every body that I met , Consequence . Phi. And now , as nice as you are , Mr. Timothy , I pray let me hear you define any of those things better : come , hold up your head , and like a Philosopher tell me , what 's Geography . Tim. Alas ! Sir , I know nothing of it , but only I have heard people say , it is about the earth . Phi. About the earth ! What dost mean , round about the earth ? Tim. Yes , Sir , if you please , round about , and quite through , and about and about again ; any thing will serve my turn . Phi. So I thought , by that little knowledge which I perceive will satisfie thee . But I prethee , Tim , how came we to ramble thus from the state of war ? Tim. We have been alll this while close at it , Sir : for if you remember , I was to shew you ( which I think I have done ) that the old Philosophers might have written as well concerning Politicks , as your self ; notwithstanding you call your humane nature the fundamental Elements of Policy ; in which there 's nothing at all towards any such purpose , except it be in the title , and at the end of the Book , where there stands these words ( Conclusion being written over them ) viz. Thus have we considered the nature of man , so far as was requisite for the finding out the first and most simple Elements wherein the composition of Politick Rules and Laws are lastly resolved ; which conclusion honest Will. Lilly might e'en as well have set to the end of his Grammar , as you have done to your Humane nature . Phi. It is no matter , Tim , what 's written on the outside of Books , be it at beginning or ending ; so that that which is within be excellent , and serviceable . Tim. I am very nigh of your mind , Philautus ; but yet I would not have all the Philosophers , before you , be counted Dunces and Loggerheads , only because it did not come into their mind to write a Book , concerning the five Senses , Imagination , Dreams , Praedicables , Propositions , &c. and call it the fundamental Elements of Policy . Phi. And is not the knowledge of the five Senses , and the rest that you mention very useful ? Tim. So is the knowledge of the Eight Parts of Speech . But I must confess that I can scarce think , that supposing the people of England had generally believed with you , that Vision was not made by species intentionales , that the image of any thing by reflection in a glass is not any thing in or behind the glass , that the interiour coat of the eye is nothing else but a piece of the optick nerve , that Vniversals do not exist in return naturâ ; I say , I cannot think , notwithstanding all this , but possibly we might have had wars in this Nation ; no more than I can believe , that a false opinion of Ecchoes , and Hypothetical Syllogismes took off the King's head . Phi. I perceive you are resolved to make the worst of every thing . Tim. I make it neither better , nor worse ; for in your Epistle Dedicatory to the Duke of Newcastle , you tell him , that all that have written before you of Iustice and Policy , have invaded each other and themselves with contradiction , that they have altogether built in the aire , and that for want of such infallible and inexpugnable Principles as you have Mathematically laid down , in your Hamane nature ; Government and Peace have been nothing else to this day but mutual fears : And when one comes to look for these same infallibles , and inexpugnables , there 's nothing but about conception , and phantasmes , and a long race amongst the passions ; where to endeavour is appetite , to turn back is repentance , to be in breath is hope , to be weary despair , and to forsake the course is to dye , and the like ; so that the only way to make a Mathematical Governour , is for himself to be a good Iockey , and for his Subjects rightly to understand the several heats , and courses of the Passions . Phi. Thou gettest away all the talk , Tim. I prethee listen to me , and learn. I tell thee that I have by my great skill in Mathematicks , and great wariness so ordered the business , that most of my Books depend closely one upon another . Tim. So I find it said by the Publisher of your Hamane Nature , in his Epistle to the Reader . Our Author ( saies he ) hath written a body of Philosophy upon such Principles , and in such order as is used by men conversant in demonstration : which being distinguished into three Parts , de Corpore , de Homine , de Cive , each of the Consequents begin at the end of the Antecedent ( like Zacutu●'s linkes ) and insist thereupon as the latter Books of Euclid upon the former . Phi. And whoever he was , he spoke like a man of understanding ; it was my design that they should , and by great industry I brought it to pass . Tim. And I pray , Sir , how many pounds of candle did it cost you , to tie de Corpore , and de Homine together ? Methinks you need not be long about that ; for Body is either taken in general or in particular ; in general , that is de Corpore : and man being a particular sort of body , de Homine must needs follow close at the heels ; and so they are taken care of : but indeed to fasten de Homine , and de Cive cleverly together requires a little more knocking and hammering ; and therefore to do that exactly , we must scratch and rub our heads very well , and warily call to mind , that a man is to be considered in two respects ; either as he is a body natural , consisting of flesh , blood , and bones ; or as he is a member of the Body Politick : that is , as he is leg , arm , finger or toe of the Common-wealth ; and therefore let us have one Book de Homine , as he is a natural Body , and another de Cive , as he is a limb of the huge Giant , the Common-wealth ; and so there 's an Euclidean trap laid , that de Cive shall follow de Homine ; and so it does , but not bluntly : for though one would have thought that this had jointed them so close together , that Archimedes himself could never have pulled them asunder ; yet to put all out of danger , it is best to rivet them a little faster , by putting in a most obliging transition ; in the last Chapter , intitled de Homine fictitio ; where we are learnt further to consider , that a man is either by , or for himself a man , called a real man ; or he is a man for another , called a fictitious man. Such a one is he that acts another , is deputed for another , engages for another , or the like . Now because in all well governed Common-wealths ( now any one by that word may perceive , that de Cive is just at Towns end ) for better trading , bargaining , commerce , &c. there 's great use of Deputies , Proxies , Factors , Sponsors , Embassadors and the like ; therefore let the chief of this Chapter be spent in the employments of such fictious men in a Common-wealth ; and then turn over the leaf , and behold , there stands to the honour of Euclid , and the admiration of all Philautians , the Book de Cive . Phi. What , would you have Arts and Sciences tumbled down together , like coals into a Cellat ? Would you not have men make use of their Parts , and Reason ; and for smoothness , and memory sake , put somewhat before , that should relate to , and occasion what follows ? Tim. I am , Sir , a great friend to the very least pretences of connexion , where it is not phantastical , or manifestly inconvenient : but to have Books tailed together by far fetched contrivances ; and to swagger them off for demonstrations , and thereupon to defie all former Ages , is so very idle , that I had rather people would speak Proverbs , or only say , these four leafes I intend to speak of a Horse , the next two shall be concerning Mackrel , and what is to be spared , shall be concerning Caterpillars . Phi. And do you , Tim , approve of this illogical , unphilosophical , and unmathematical way of writing ? Tim. No ; but I had ten times rather do so , than as the natural Philosopher , who being employed to write the History of a Crow , Iack-daw , and Pye , after many Months spent in dressing , ranking , stringing , and hanging them together , at last entered upon the business after this elegant and digested manner . Being about to treat of the natural rights and powers of Crows , Iack-daws , and Pyes ; subjects often handled by weak and heedless observers : we shall be forced so to write , as if none had been before us in this kind : all which must be performed with such prudence and consideration , as justly become so very great an affair ; seeing that hereupon depend not only the knowledge of the chiefest and best of Birds ; but also of all beasts in general : Nay , even of man himself , and the great Trojane horse the Common-wealth . And that we may be sure to lay a solid foundation , and neither to repent , nor recal , it will be necessary in the beginning exactly to state the true conception or Idaea of a Bird , for as much as the particular conceptions of Crow , Iack-daw , and Pye are comprehended under that common one of Bird : And therefore that we may avoid-all equivocation , which is the original of Errors , and that there may be no quarrelling or disputing in following Ages , we do ram down for the future Peace and Government of all Nations , that the phantasme or conception of a Bird is a flying phantasme or conception . Having thus warily and fundamentally determined what is a Bird in general ; we proceed now to the three Birds themselves : and that we may do nothing without method , the blackest and largest of them we call a Crow ; and seeing that likeness of colour begets likeness of conception , we go on to the next , whose conception is full out as black as a Crow , but not altogether so large , and this we call a Iack-daw ; and because that black strictly taken only for black , is a more simple conception than black and white together , therefore we thought fit to speak of a Pye in the last place , which partakes of the two former conceptions as to black , but differs from both as to white . Phi. I prethee , Tim , what was the name of this Philosopher ? Tim. 'T is no matter for his name , Sir : You must needs acknowledge him to be a Philosopher of worth ; and very little inferiour to your self , both as to reason , and circumspection . Phi. But where 's the state of war all this while ? That 's the thing I long to be at , Tim ; and to shew thee for a Fish. Tim. Let me but consider a little , how that same Book de homine ( I don't mean your little English Humane nature ) came to be filled with such a heap of Opticks , and then the Fish shall begin as soon as you will. Phi. To make out that is as needless , as to shew how a Coach goes down Holborn-hill . Tim. I think I remember how it is , viz. a man is a creature , that has body and mind : his mind has several faculties ; and amongst the rest there be five Senses ; and the most excellent of all these is Seeing ; and then presently pull away with Perspective , Dioptricks , Catoptricks , Telescopes , Microscopes , and all the rest for fifty Pages together , as long as there 's a Star to be seen in the Skie . Phi. And why , is it not proper to put in Opticks into a Treatise de Homine ? Tim. Not after the manner as you have done ; because we have an art by it self for that purpose . You might as well have put in fifty Pages about Musick , as about Opticks : for man you know has as many ears , as eyes . But here 's the business , Philautus , you take very great pains in all things to be singular . Where you should use Mathematicks , there you will scarce let us have any at all ; and when there 's not the least need , then you pour them forth as if you were bottomless : And thus many a Reader comes , suppose , to one of your Books that has an ordinary title ; and there finding a company of strange Mathematical Schemes ; and not understanding them , he presently cries out , What a brave man is this Philautus ? What wonders and rarities does he afford upon such a common subject ? Surely he has gone the deepest that ever searched into Nature . I tell you , Philautus , he that has a mind to take advantage of this humour of yours , and to run things together by force that have no relation , he may easily thrust the fifteen Books of Euclid into the London Dispensatory , or Iustinian's Institutes into a Common Almanack . I shall not now stand to tell you after what pills , and under what month they might come in , because I am loth to hinder the show . Phi. Be not too secure and presumptuous , Tim : for if I don't shew thee for a fish , I 'le shew thee to be a Beast , and all mankind besides . Tim. Nay , if I have so much good company , I had much rather turn out to grass , than stand in alone , and be melancholy ; come , Sir , flourish then , and let 's begin . Phi. You know Tim , that I have laid a foundation for this in my Humane Nature , and 't is an easy matter now to finish the business . Tim. Yes truly I have ( as I told you before ) looked over that same foundation of yours , called Humane Nature , and I think it much more fit for the bottom of minc'd pyes , than of any Policy or government . Be pleased to goe on , Sir , and shew some other reasons why the ancient Philosophers did not think , as you doe , that all men are naturally beasts . You told me , as I remember , somewhat else , wherein they miscarried ; besides that they went in a wrong method , and did not first design a Treatise of Humane Nature . Phi. I did so : and it was thus : viz. they all blindly running one after another , and taking severall things for granted that were perfectly false ; they laid down that for a fundamental truth , which is no otherwise than a fundamental lie . Tim. That was a great oversight indeed ; a fundamental truth , and a fundamental lie ! I profess , Sir , they dwell a great way asunder . But I pray what was that fundamental lie . Phi. That man was a sociable creature . Tim. Lack a day ! how easie a matter is it for old folks to dote and slaver , and for young ones to be deceived , and lick up the spittle ? I 'd have laid three cakes to a farthing , that my old Masters had been in the right . But are you very , very certain that they are not ? perhaps you may have taken yours upon trust , as well as they did theirs : and if so then courage cakes , for I don't intend to be a Centaure . Phi. That 's a good one indeed : as if they who had all their Philosophy from the tap-droppings of their predccessors , and the moral tradition of the Barber's Chair , were not much more subject to take thing upon trust , than one , who supecting all kind of opinions , have turn'd over the whole History of the world , and Nature her self . Tim. And there belike you found , that man is not a sociable creature . I wish there were some way to compound this business : for you know , Sir , the world is full of trade , acquaintace , neighbours and relations : and for the most part man has had the crack and fame , for five or six thousand years , of being tolerably tame ; and methinks it is a great pity now at last to be sent to the Tower amongst the Lyons , or to be driven to Smithfield , with a mastiffe and a great cudgell . I pray , Sir , what doe you mean by those words , when you say that man is not a sociable creature ? Phi. What , canst not construe two words of Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ I mean as all people mean , that man is not born fit for society . Tim. He is usually born with two Leggs , to goe about his business ; with a pair of hands to tell money , with a couple of eyes to see if there be any Brass ; and with a tongue to discourse , when he has nothing else to doe . And therefore I must be troublesome once more , and desire you to explain , what you mean by a mans being not born fit for society . Phi. Thou askest questions , Tim , as if thou didst intend to send me to market : When I say , that a man is not born fit for society , I mean that men naturally doe not seek society for its own sake . Tim. I must desire of you , that you would let own sake alone for the present ; and let us first see , whether men do naturally seek society : and I 'le promise you , not to forget to have it considered , for whose sake , or upon what acompt they doe it . And therefore , I pray , Sir , answer me punctually whether naturally men doe seeke society or not . Phi. To be punctual , Tim , and please thee , I answer , they doe not . Tim. You know , Philautus , that men are apt to sort , to herd ; they love to enquire , to confer , and discourse : and when people get into corners , and covet to be alone ; we usually count such to be sick , distemper'd , melancholy or towards mad . And I suppose the question is not concerning such , but concerning healthful and sober men . Phi. There you are quite out , Tim : for when I say that men naturally doe not seek society , or are not born fit for society ; I don't mean full grown men , such as are able to carry or eat a quarter of beef , but I mean children : which is plain in the very phrase it self , Tim , if thou wouldst mind any thing : it being there said , not born fit ; so that to say , a man is not born fit for society , is all one as to say , that a man newly born is not fit for society , or does not seek society . Tim. Well let it go so ; we 'l see what will become of this business ; it begins to drive bravely : we are got thus far that children do not desire or seek society . But if so , Philautus , how comes it about that they desire or seek after company . I don't mean , that when the Nurses back is turned , they skip out of the cradle , and with a huge ashen Plant run away to the next fair , Bull-bayting , or football match ; but they do not care for being in the dark : they are discontented , and cry when they are left alone , and love to see now and then a humane face , if it does not look , as if it would bite . Phi. All this is only for victuals . Tim. Some of it , I grant you , may be for victuals . But they can't eat , from one end of the Nation to the other . And one child oftimes takes delight in the company of another , to whom it has never a load of corn to fell : neither does it intend to eat , or suck up that other child . Phi. Thou art quite beside the saddle again , Tim : for when I say a child doth not seek or desire society : by society I don't mean crying for the pap or sucking bottle , or to be daunc'd by Dad , or to giggle it amongst its Camrades : But I mean by society , bonds , contracts , covenants , leagues , transferring of rights , and such like things which are proper to Cities , Communities and Societies : Dost hear me , Tim , I mean by society these sort of common-wealth affaires : which thou knowest children doe neither understand , nor are able to mannage . And now I suppose thy thick skull begins to open a little , and to be enlightned : one had as good have half score to inform , as one heavy Tim. Tim. Indeed , Sir , it must be acknowledged that you have taken great pains . But for all that , I pray may not I make bold to say , that children desire society in your sence ? for they seek it so soon as they are able , and doe perceive the intentions thereof . Phi. Thou wilt never leave this dull trick of not understanding . I must therefore condescend , and let thee know , that by seeking society , I mean actual entering into society : that is , being ingaged in conveyances , bargains , publick offices , and such things as I before mentioned . This and only this is truly to be said sociable . Tim. And is this all that you have now to say ? have you nothing more to add . Phi. What need is there of any more ? Tim. Then doe I very much pity the poor distressed creatures , that have been thus long gulled with same and phrases . Phi. How so ? Tim. How so , do you say ? what would you have a Child come out of the womb , saying over Noverint Vniversi with a pen in one hand , and wax in t'other , and fall presently to signing , sealing and delivering : or before it be dressed ; shreek aloud , and cry faggots , faggots five for sixpence ? is this the principle that you were so many years finding out ? is this the fruits of Mathematicks , long observation , fundamental casting about , and bottoming of things ? did you goe into the bowels and heart blood of Nature to bring up nothing else but this ? Phi. I prethe , Tim , don't make such long sentences : for thou wilt have nothing to say by and by . I tell thee that this principle that I have now revealed to thee , is the most weighty principle that belongs to all Humane Nature . Tim. 'T is very weighty indeed : and it is great pity but that you should be entomb'd at Westminster and statued up at Gresham Colledge for the great moral discoverer of the Age. Phi. Why ? for all your jeering , Tim , I hope you do not imagine that a child can trade , and covenant , or bear any publick office for the good of the Common-wealth . Tim. No indeed : I do not think it can : unless you would have it jump off the Nurses lap , and run away to the Exchange , and there ask for the Spanish , or Virginia walk ; or have a woman brought to bed of a Iustice of peace , or a Maior with his Macebearer and tipt staves before him . Phi. Very good , very good : then it seemes at last , you are willing to acknowledge that I said true . Tim. And so did all men before you . Phi. Nay , pardon me there : for they say quite contrary . Tim. Which of them ever said that any man was actually born a Constable or silk weaver ? Phi. But they say he 's born fit . Tim. So doe you , or else I cannot read your own Annotations upon the second Article of your first Chapter de Cive : wherein you say that to man , by nature , as man , as soon as he is born solitude is an enemy . And that all men are desirous of congress and mutuall correspondence , and doe enter into society as soon as they understand it . Phi. But this is not pure insant nature , but education . Tim. I should laugh indeed to see a Marchant to ship away a Baby in blankets to be his Factor beyond sea : or to see a child of half a year old with its whistle and rattle set swaggering in Commission upon the bench with my Lord. A child I suppose may be admitted to be born apt to walk ; speak , reason and discourse ; although it be above a week before it leaps up the table , and cry Nego 〈◊〉 . The short of your opinion is this , Philautus , that children , fools and madmen , are not very ambitious of being of the Privy Council ; and if they were invited thereunto , would do themselves and the Nation but little service . So that if right reason ( which , Philautus , you so much talk of , and pretend to ) does determine that the Cradle , Bedlam , and a Gentleman's kitchen shall be the only standard and measure of Humane Nature , then truly Philautus must be acknowledged by all for a most mighty Philosopher : but if otherwise , he must e'en be content to sit down with his neighbours . And if you remember , Philautus , I gave you an hint of this at first , viz. That if your opinions were thoroughly search'd into , and that all disguise of phrase was laid aside , they would either be found to be absolutely false , or else to be the same , that every mortal believes . And this gave me hopes of compounding the business . Phi. Nay , hold you there : for I am against sharing or dividing of truth . I don't like that cowardly trick of compounding for an assertion , or having my opinions insured . Sink , or swim , I love to run the whole venture , and to get all or lose all . And certain I am that I say somewhat quite different from what is commonly known , or asserted . Tim. So you know you promised us in the title of your Humane Nature : where I looked till my eyes asked ; and I could find nothing but ancient venerable stuf● new cased and dawb'd over . And I perceive you are of the same mind still , and think that you hold and maintaine such things as were never held or maintained before . I pray , Sir , let 's heare one of those same things , that you thus swagger of . Phi. Then let me tell you , Tim , that I do hold , maintain & positively say that the state of nature is a state of war : which is a truth so great , bold , and generous , that all the Ancients . wanted parts , wit and courage to find it out , or defend it . Tim. I am confident that this will prove just such another story , as that of the sociable creature : and I must needs say that it was done like a wit , and Hec. besides , to find out and hold that which every child may hold . Phi. That 's as good , as I heard this fortnight : Thou speakest like one that is versed in business , and the world . What , shall a child be able to defend that which lay hid for so many Ages , and took me such paines to discover ? Tim. You shall hear the Child hold it , and demonstrate it too , that 's more , viz. thus : the state of War ( you know ) is a state wherein people have not engaged or obliged themselves to one another by any covenants , bargains , or transferring of rights . So far is true : is it not ? Phi. Well , go on . Tim. And you know that children or infants , which are in the true state of nature , cannot covenant or bargain , release or transfer ; and therefore you cannot but know , that that dreadful business called the state of war must needs follow . Phi. Thou art Tim , certainly the worthiest of thy kind . This is my very proofe : you make use of my very way . Tim. I do so ; because no body but a child would ever have made such a noise and rattle with a company of words , and to mean so little by them . Phi. Why , what 's the matter now ? what is it that you would have had meant ? Tim. Alas ! Sir , when you told me ( as you do in your Epistle Dedicatory de Cive ) That man to man is an arrant Wolfe , except it be for his interest to be otherwise ; That there 's no living amongst strangers but by the two daughters of War , deceipt and violence ; That naturally men are all brutall , ravenous and rapacious ; I say when I heard this , I expected the whole world naturally to be all in armes and an uproare ; tearing and worrying one another like mad : and to hear nothing but down with him there , hang him with his own gutts , give him a pound of melted lead for a julip to cool his pluck , split him down the chine , or flea him alive and roast him with a couple of awles in his eyes : when I , Philautus , heard of a state of war , I profess , I could think of little less than all this and so did most people besides : and when all comes to all , Philautus has found out a great moral secret , viz. That Whelps can't see till they be nine days old , nor a child can't speak unless it has a spoon , nor goe to market before it can goe alone . Phi. Is this all that I say ? Tim. 'T is all : and every bit and scrap of all . For like a great searcher into Nature , you only observe that we are children before we are men , and children can't speak ; and where no speech , there can be no bargain or engagement , or treaty for termes of peace , and where no bargain , &c. there must needs be the Devil , & war. Phi. I profess , Tim , this confidence of thine does almost anger me , to utter some vast sense beyond thy worth . Tim. If I thought that were the way to make you speak wiser , I 'd carry on the designe , and endeavour to improve my self for that very purpose ; and I 'd not only be very confident , but I 'd be as saucy , as I could contrive . Phi. Then know , Tim , that I have reserved a reason for such sauciness , as thine : and therefore I do pronounce that children may not only be said to be in a state of war meerly because they cannot enter into Leagues , and offer and receive termes of peace ; but that we oftimes see that they actually gripe and demand things to which they have not the least right or title ; which if denyed , they presently out of fury cry , quarrell , fight , and scratch poor Nurse , or Parent it self : now this , Tim , does not only demonstrate their naturall dispositions to war ; but that without any affront , reason or pretence of justice , they actually fall on , and have no respect at all to our meums and tuums . Tim. Thus have I seen a spanish-leather shoe kick'd into the fire , and perished in the involving flames : and ( which would make a heart to bleed ) a whole poringer of sweetned milk , with its topling white bread , rouling up and down upon the uncertain floore : and the little state of Nature as hard worrying the righteous & inoffensive Nurse , as ever poor Dogg was worryed by Hare . And inquiring into the quarrell , and occasion of the war , I found , that the wicked and ravenous young Centaure against all Conscience and the establish'd lawes of the Realm , had most unjustly and feloniously sat upon a whole yard of red inkle . Phi. And did it not affect thee , Tim , and make thee sigh again ? and wert thou not converted thereby , and fully convinced that the State of Nature was a state of war ? this methinks was a very Providentiall instance . Tim. I was fully perswaded , Sir , by that and some other instances , that children doe not know the exact difference between freehold and copyhold . And when they take a frolick to scratch and quarrell , they do not always consult the law of Nations ; giving convenient warning , and printing a proclamation of war with a long history of the justice thereof . But , Sir , there 's another thing to be taken notice of in children ( which I wonder such an observer as you should miss ) that intimates a setled resolution to quarrel , and seemes to design absolute battell : for , what you mentioned before , may possibly be by chance . And that is , many children are observed to come into the world with all their fingers close bent over their thumbs ; and they of times continue in this 〈◊〉 condition a long while after : & if anyone goes about to order the hand into more peaceful posture and circumstances , it 's presently snatched away with great fury and violence , and by a natural kind of 〈◊〉 , returns to the 〈…〉 Phi. I profess , Tim. I did not think that thou had hadst so much stuf● in thee . I am confident that if thou hadst not been spoiled in thy education , and tained with some foppish and squeamish Principles , thou mightest in time have come to some tolerable degree of moral prudence . Tim. Why , Sir , do you like what I now said ? Phi. Like it ? Why , who does not ? Tim. Nay , if you like that , surely ( in your opinion ) I may be Professor in time : for it was one of the silliest things that ever said in my whole life . I did it only , Sir , to 〈◊〉 it with your reason which you quoted just before out of your Preface , about Childrens clawing for a flower , or bit of ribhand . Phi. What then , art thou resolved not to stir ? Must I go on further to convince thee ? I prethee , Tim , tell me , how much conviction will serve thy turn ; & I 'le undertake thee by the lump , that I may know when I shall make thee a man ? I am confident , I fully understand why thou stickest , and art so difficulty to be brought to my opinion : thou perceivest that most people are born in Families and Towns , and whilst they are children they are kept from doing mischief by their Parents and Nurses ; and when are they grown up , they are restrained by Law : and were it not for this pittiful prejudice , thou wouldst believe as fully as I , that the state of Nature is a meer state of war. Tim. I know now as well as can be whereabouts you are : this is to wheadle me into your Mushroom state of men suddainly springing out of the earth , without any kind of engagement to each other . Phi. O that I could but get thee to grant any such thing , then I should flie thee home presently . Tim. I don't care much for men springing out of the earth ; lest fitting upon the ground , some fellow or other should leeringly put up his head between my legs : but , which is as well , I 'le grant you a shower of pure natural men ; and the rather , because Pliny has a little scoured the roads , with a rain of calfes long ago . Phi. And wilt thou not flinch , but be ingenuous , and suffer me to suppose freely ? Tim. Suffer you , Sir ? Don't question that : if you please , Sir , I 'le suppose it for you . Phi. And won't you put in a little of Moses's tale , of the World being inhabited first by Adam ; to whom God transferred the right of all things , and he to his Posterity ? Tim. Not a word ; it does not become a Philosopher , and an Inquirer into Principles to tell Stories . Phi. Now thou speakest like a child of some hopes . I don't question now but I shall get thy heart , and soul too , before it be long . I prethee then begin ; and be sure Tim , to be very just and exact in thy supposition . Tim. Thus then ; Upon the tenth of March — Phi. How ? not a word further : thou must begin all again : the tenth of March , Tim ? that 's not natural : but a meer humane institution of the Almanack-men : an absolute contrivance of State , to find out Fairs and Markets , and other publick places of transferring of rights . Tim. Then let it be thus ; Once upon a time , the wind being full East — Phi. Out again ; we shall have a shower of nothing but Iudges , Doct●●rs , and Philosophers : Dost not know that the wise men c●me out of the East ? Tim. That 's only Scripture , Sir : and you know if the Supreme Magistrate does but so interpret it , there shall come as wise ones out of the West : but however to content you , wee 'l have no wind at all : but only wee 'l have it rain a good lusty shower ; and amongst the rest of the great drops , there shall come down four well complexioned , upright Gentlemen : about fifteen hands high : which shall all happen to fall upon an Island of four hundred acres , viz. the Isle of Pines ; and that we may be better acquainted with them , their names shall be Dick , Roger , Tumbler & Towser . Phi. Here 's at least half a load of contradiction , in what thou hast now said . First of all you say they shall be upright : I pray whose Rights or Laws can they keep or break ; they having not as yet taken any oath of Allegiance or Supremacy ? Next of all you say they are Gentlemen : Perhaps so ; but if they be , you must needs go back again , and speak for a small dagger-cloud for their foot-boys : and then besides all this , I see no great necessity that you should make them so very tall and large , when less Mounsiers would serve as well for a supposition . Tim. Truly , Sir , when I said that they were upright Gentlemen , I only meant that they were streight limb'd and right up ones : and by Gentlemen , I only meant ordinary men : But as to their stature I think I was discreet enough : because if you remember , Sir , in the eighth Chapter of your dominion ; those same mushroom-men which you ordered to spring out of the earth , were suddainly to come to full maturity ; and if mature perfect men may come up , I saw no reason but as perfect ones might come down . And when we had once appointed it to rain men ; I thought we had better have a shower to some purpose , and have it rain good , stout , speaking , understanding men , than only a Scottish mist of Babies , which would have entagled us agai in the old story of children not being sociable . Phi. But how comes in about that you suppose these people to speak ? Speech is so very an antificial thing , that we are forced to have Masters and Mistresses for that very purpose ; and all the world perceives that children do not speak naturally . Tim. But you know , Philautus , that the very same man 〈◊〉 that had a Plantation of armed men , not far from the Isle of Pine● , is said to have had also a small nursery of Letters ; and we may properly enough say that there is some hopes that children may speak , although they do not immediatly after nine or ten Months close imprisonment , call for their boots and horse , to take fresh aire . And besides you promised to talk no more of children , but substantial men ; and you need not be afraid at all , that it shall rain any absurdi●ies so long as we do not suppose it to rain Watch-men , Bell-men , Lant●rns and Psalms : for we intend only an ordinary civil shower of perfect men . Phi. I am likely to do thee much good indeed ! We are inquiring what is the pure candid condition of nature , and thou comest in with thy Civil shower ; which supposes Government , society , and all the absurdities imaginable , and begs the whole question that is in controversie : Is this you that promised to suppose so fairly ? thou shalt e'en be called Tim the fair supposer . Tim. This 't is to be so much for self preservation ! it makes people as curious and fearful of their reputation , as of their limbs . I speak , Philautus , only of an ordinary shower of men , and you snort and boggle , as if I had laid a thousand fox-traps , and barrels of gun-power in the road ; you may put out the word Civil , if you please , I intended no advantage by it . Phi. Well then , if you 'l leave out your tricks , and keep to your pure , plain , ordinary men ; I do not at all question , but the 〈◊〉 will go on my side . Tim. What are you resolved then that they must needs have a brush at boxes before they set on the old hen and bacon ? Must they needs upon first sight set up their tayls , and bristles , and fall a sna●ling , and swearing , and tearing one anothers throat● out ? Phi. You do not hear me say so : but you must be forced to 〈◊〉 me , that they are as yet in most absolute state of war. Tim. Why so ? Phi. Because they have not as yet entered into any League , nor concluded any Treaty , nor so much as made any overt●●es for Alli●need Tim. That 's right : unless they happened ( as they came tumbling down ) to call in at old Io●es of upper Enfield , two miles beyond Cancasus , and there crack'd 〈◊〉 and shak'd hands . Phi. But if they did so , they did not come down inpur●● naturalibus . Tim. And is this all the reason you have that these men are in a state of war , viz. because they have not as yet discoursed , made overtures , covenanted ? Phi. Yes truly ; and it is a most able one upon my reputation . Tim. Now could I be tempted to go home , and spend a little time in laughing , and not to talk one word more : for this proves just such another discovery as we had before : For after much wrangling and dispute , we found out ( I remember ) at last , that a sucking Child was not fit to command an Army , or to make a speech at the head of it ; and now we have found out , that these same dropt men can't enter into a league , till they have spoken with one another , neither can they speak , till they open their mouths ; and therefore they are in a most dismal state of war ; because when they do meet , it is possible for them to fight , having sworn not any thing at all to the contrary . What , Philautus , would you have Roger speak to the next tree to run away in all hast , and out of pure natural kindness , and sweet sincere humanity invite Dick and the rest of the Pineyards to a Wesphalia Ham and Pigeons ? Whereas Roger never saw any of them as yet , nor knows any thing of their being come to Pines : Or would you have Dick to testifie his inward disposition to pure society it self , grasp a whole armful of aire , and fall to treating and covenanting , and at last enter into a close league therewith ? The summ of all , Philautus , amounts only to this ; that there are four honest Rogues come to Town , from the four several quarters of the world , and falling either upon several places of the Island , or being a great mist , or coming before day light , they have not as yet seen one another , and having not seen one another , they have not as yet discoursed , treated or compounded ; and therefore they are actually in a state of ●ar , i. e. they having not spoken at all , it is impossible that they should have spoken to each other . Now if you take delight in the phrase , you may if you please call this a state of war , a state of Devils , or what state you will ; but for my part , I think there 's nothing in it , only a small trick of words . There 's the huge King of China , and another great man that dwells t'other way : I never made any overtures , treaty or composition with them ; and yet for all that I don't find any grumblings or cursings of humane nature within me , or any prickings , and pushings forth toward any war. Indeed I have found my self sometimes at some small variance with the Turk ; but that is , because his Rogues use to droll a little too severely upon my Merchant men . Neither , Philautus , would I have you think ( supposing it were worth the while to insist upon a phrase ) that you have justified this kind of supposed state of nature to be a state of war , by saying , as you somewhere do , that the state of war is not only actual fighting , but it is the whole time that the variance or quarrel last . For I grant that war consists not in the number or length of battles , but in a readiness and resolution to contend . But withall we may easily conceive much more reason to call the intervals between battle and battle , war ; or the whole time from proclamation thereof to the concluding of peace ; than to call that a state of war , which has no pretence for any such name from any quarrel that ever was yet , but from one that unreasonably may be . I say , I think , there ought to be some difference made between these two states ; and you your self , Philautus , must not be too backward to acknowledge it ; because of your very own definition of war , cap. 1. Art. 12. Where you say , that war is that same time in which the will of contesting by force , is fully declared by words or deeds . Now if Roger had challenged Dick to play with him to morrow , three first hits for the Kingdom ; or that Dick had come behind Roger , and struck up his heels , here had been Declaration enough to signifie and justifie war : But to say that they are at war without either words or deeds ( only because they have not bargain'd ) is not agreeable to what you say your self . Phi. You have talked , and talked I know not what , Tim. But for all that , will you venture to say that these four strangers are actually a body politick ? Tim. I 'le say no such thing at all : But I say that this same state of war which you make such a clatter with , is only a war of meer words : and therefore to lay aside this same blind mans buff , and decide the controversie ; let us see a little what these same Pineyards will do when they first meet . And so , if you please , Sir , about Sun-rising wee 'l give them a view , unmuzzle , and let them off the slip . And now hola Roger ! over with him there Dick ; collar him close Towser ; gripe him under the small ribs , and pluck out his speen Tumbler . O bravely recovered ! Now hold it out for the credit of the state of nature , and the family of the Dicks . Now fall upon his chest , and strike his heart out of his mouth , and dash that Rogues eye out of the Island . Phi. I prethee , Tim , what art thou doing of ? What an uproar and noise thou makest ? Thou didst talk just now of four honest Rogues that were come to Town , and thou hast sent for four Furies , I think . Tim. I did it only , Sir , to give you a small sample of the state of nature . They must have a brush I suppose , Sir , before they go to breakfast . Phi. I pray , Tim , do so much as part them ; and let 's go on softly and soberly , and then see what will follow . Tim. I can exactly tell you , Sir , what will follow , viz. if humane nature upon first view , pricks up its eares , and sets up its skut , and falls presently to tearing , slicing and slashing ; then the battle goes on your side : but if reason and humane nature directs these people to treat , and live peaceably together , then I count the day is mine . Phil. Nay , Tim , the field is not so easily gained : You think of your tropies a little too soon . Tim. However methinks at present I am a little apt to value my hopes : For here 's nothing of prejudice , education , custom , Father or Mother , League or Covenant ; but only pure terse humane nature , newly drawn out of the clouds . Phi. Let me consider a little : You say if they fall to quarrelling and fighting , when ever they first meet , then and not else it is to be judged that humane nature inclines to war ; or that the state of nature is a state of war. Now I thought thou didst go on too quick : For let me tell thee , Tim , that that is as much false , as I am older than thou art . For actual fighting and destroying is not that alone which is to be termed 〈◊〉 ▪ For whether these Pineyards fight or not , so long as they have not treated and bargained , they cannot properly be said to be sociable . Tim. This we have had over so often , that I am quite tired , viz. they cannot properly be said actually to have made Covenants , Leagues , and Bonds , till they have actually made Covenants , Leagues , and Bonds . Do but resolve to hold to that , and you may easily defend your self against all the forces in the world , by sea or by land . Phi. But for all you are so brisk , Tim : How do you certainly know that they will not fall to breaking of heads and leggs ? Did you stand behind a tree and hear the parley ? Or had you word sent you by the Pinaean packet boat ? Tim. I need not go so far for my Intelligence , Philautus . I had it nearer home : For ( to save Iourneys and charges of Forreign Letters ) I alwaies love to keep a little right reason in the house ; with which your Book of Politicks is so crawlingly full ; and from which alone ( not from general agreement of the most wise men and learned Nations , or the common consent of mankind which you there despise ) you lay down for the first and fundamental law of Nature , that peace is to be sought , where it may be found . Now in this same little land of Pines , we doe suppose there growes abundance of peace , if the late come guests will but seek for 't : because being never inhabited , there was never so much as a cut finger dropt upon 't . Phi. Now I have catch'd thee bravely , Tim. Now I do not question but to make abundance of money of thee . I do say indeed , that right reason tells us , that the first and fundamentall law of Nature is to seeke peace where it may be had ; and that the first special law of Nature derived from that fundamentall one is this , that the right of all men to all things ought not to be retained , but that some certain rights ought to be transferred or relinquish'd . But you must consider , Tim , that I establish these laws upon quite different grounds from those which are generally given by old Moralists . For they flatter you , and feed you with a fiddle faddle of mens seeking society , for its own sake ; and dividing or compounding the common right by natural equity and justice . Wheras it is plain to me and all right Reasoners , that men meerly lye upon the lu●ch for society , and seek it only for pleasure or profit : ( or in one word out of mutual fear . ) and they are willing to share or divide the common right , not because there is any inward reason they should do so , but because it is much safer than to be engaged in War perpetually . Take this along with thee , Tim , there 's Doctrine enough for this fortnight . Tim. Ther 's a little too much for once , Sir ; and therefore I must desire you to cast it into two parts . You say in the first place that we have held for many ages that men seek society for its own sake . I pray why may we not hold it one summer more . Phi. Why ? If by Nature one man should love another , that is as man , every man would equally love every man , as being equally man ; and not pick here and there , according as profit , honour , or other things do direct him . Tim. Now , upon my Conscience , Philautus , you meane by a man only a thing standing right up ( like a Heron ) with a head and a few eyes thereunto belonging : For if he chance to speake or listen , to buy or sell , give or receive ; if he be peacefull , faithfull , modest , affable , temperate , prudent , ingenious , or be of any worth or use imaginable ; then we seek after such , and fort with such , not for society ▪ but out of mutual fear . So that to enter into society for its own simple single sake , were only to enter into it , for the sake of a good word , that must not signify any thing . For if it does , it must not be called society , but plot , profit , design , or the like . Phi. And dost thou think , Tim , that I will not believe my own eyes and ears , before this nothing that thou sayest ? Is there any better way to understand by what advice and upon what accompt people mee ▪ , and enter into society , than by observing what they do when they are met ? For suppose , Tim , they meet for traffique , is it not plain that every man minds his business , and endeavours to dispatch what he design'd ? If to discharge some offi●● , is it not to carry on a kind of a market friendship , which has more of jealousie than true love ? And lastly if ( for diversion and recreation of mind ) to discourse ; is not here visibly at the bottom either advantage or vain glory ? Tim. This must needs be right : and I wonder how I came to mistrust it . For suppose I goe to market to buy corn and meat for my family : and when I come 〈…〉 the length and colour of his eye-browes ; and also an exact accompt 〈…〉 and complexion of the 〈◊〉 that stood 〈◊〉 the sacks mouth ; and affect them both most dea●ly and return home most vehemently in love ; and next day bid my servant set on the pot and fill it full of 〈◊〉 , stature , complexion , friendship and society , and let them be very well boyl'd : I am afraid , for all my 〈◊〉 love , some of the family may chance to be hungry before next market day . And so in like manner if upon the road my horse casts a shoe , and thereupon I call in upon the next Sm●th : I may pretend indeed that I came only to render him a sociable visit , to look upon his 〈…〉 , him , and to be sweet upon his humanity : but , for all that ; it is 〈◊〉 to one before we parts If I don't 〈◊〉 plot and fetch things about , as to treat concerning Oton , and so by degrees cunningly draw him in to set me a shoe ▪ Phi. But why so many instances ? Tim. Because you have two whole pages upon the same occasion : and beside● I have a mind to convince my self throughly that people do not enter into society purely for its own sake . And therefore I cannot but think again , if I should call a coach , and when I have done so , speak to bay and brown to set me down at Charing-cross : for , as for their Master ; he should ride along with me in the coach , because I did intend to love him , and hugg him a whole shillings worth . I believe the Coachman may goe to bed supperless for all this ▪ and that I might have been sooner at my journeys end , if I had gone on foot . Or lastly suppose I should be lost upon the road at midnight , and call a man out of his bed only to ask him whether he be in health , how he slept , and how all his family does : and not say one word concerning my being ignorant of the way ; ( for there 's designe ) this would be pure love indeed , and a most unexceptionable argument of 〈◊〉 to society . and therefore , 〈◊〉 you well observe , people may 〈◊〉 and talk of entring into society for its own sake , and of going to market out of meer good will , but when you dive into the business , it is very great odds , if there be not some timber to sell , some corn to buy , a shoe to set , a question to ask , or some such politick and inveigling 〈◊〉 . Phi. I am very glad , Tim , to hear thee give such apt instance : it is a sign that thou beginnest to understand my Doctrine , and to be satisfied therewith . Tim. O , Sir , I am so wonderfully satisfied , that I am even ready to split again with satisfaction . For now I plainly perceive what it is which justly and morally ought to be called seeking society for it self ; to wit , if the Inhabitants of every Town , once or twice in a week ▪ instead of going to Church , or market , without either bell or trumpet , would naturally meet together , and like a company of Turkies get sidelong upon a pole , and sometimes plume and gently chafe one another , and now and then put about a true love jogg to the whole company : or like a brood of ducklings for mutual consolation sake get close into a corner with head under wing , and make not the least noise , for fear of waking Original sin , and the quarrelsome state of Nature ; this possibly might pass for unfeigned freindship , and society without design . But if men do either give or receive , counsel 〈◊〉 take advice , discourse o● jest , if they speak but the least word , then presently a reason is to be tickled up , that this was not society , but plo● and designe . Nay , if a man does but look earnestly upon another , and ask , what 's a clock , it spoyles the whole integrity and sincerrity of the business , and can be nothing less than a very fetch and stratagem , if it be at all considered of by one that knowes the world . Phi. I perceive , Tim , that thou hast profited but very little , by the late instances I gave thee , of peoples entring into society meerly upon designe . How ever surely thou canst not deny , that there 's great safety and convenience in seeking of peace : and many a mischief there would be if it should be neglected . And therefore , why ought not I , foreseeing those mischiefes , be said to endeavour to avoid them only out of fear , and thereupon choose society as the safest ●ondition ? Tim. I 'le give you free leave , Philautus , to say that peace is better than war , in English , Latin , or any other Language , upon that very accompt your selfe mention ; but I would not have you say that that 's the only or chiefe reason . For there 's great difference , Philautus , in saying that I do this or that , meerly and only because I am afraid of a bloody nose , or broken shins : and in saying that I do it for a better reason ; & that a legg or an arm may chance to go of , if I neglect to do it . Phi. Upon better reason , dost thou say ? what can a man spend his time better than to suspect , take heed , be watchfull and afraid ? and dost thou think that thou canst ever find out any other reason to make the four men of Pines compound , besides fear ? Tim. Yes , I have one worth ten of that , ( which I shall give you by and by : ) and moreover not only shew you that in all justice and equity they ought to compound , but also what terms they ought to offer towards an accommodation ? Phi. I prethee , Tim , which will certainly beat , the French or Dutch ? which sinkes the first Ship , and where will the wind be upon the fifteenth of May ? poor creature ! that thou should thus cut out work for thy own disparagement , and engage before hand to be silly ! and yet because it shall never be said , that Tim wanted meanes of growing wiser , I care not much if I fling away one demonstration more upon thee , to prevent if possibly , this great plot thou hast laid to discredit thy self : whereby it will experimentally appear , that men at first were not only in a state of war , & did as it were lay down their weapons , and combine out of meer fear : but that the state of war really is not yet ended , nor ever will be . For that every man is still to this very day afraid of every man ; and ( now observe me Tim , ) that this is a naturall taint and infection that runs through the whole humane blood : and is so deeply seated therein , that it will never be utterly wash'd out till Doomes-day . Tim. Always provided , that you had excepted your servant Timothie from being afraid of every body . For as fierce as you look , Sir , he is not in the least afraid of you . Phi. what ? I hope ( whilst I am endeavouring to cure thee of thy errors ) thou dost not intend to huff ▪ quarrel and challeng me . I don't much like the very phrases that belong to ●ighting . Tim. I intended no affront at all to you , Sir , for there 's abundance more that I am not afraid of . Phi. Then upon my word , it is for want of judgement and common observation . I confess now and then , Tim , I have met some rash inconsiderate youngsters ( like thy self ) who would try to be of thy opinion , and pertly to contradict me would gainsay themselves . And to such I use to say thus . What mean you Gentlemen to approve of that in your discourses , which your actions perfectly disavow ? Do you not see all countries , though they be at peace with their neighbours , yet guarding their frontiers with armed men , their Towns with walls and ports , and keeping constant watches ? Do you not see even in well governed States , where there are Lawes and punishments appointed for offenders , yet particular men travel not without their sword by their sides for their defences , neither sleep they without shutting not only their doors against their fellow subjects , but also their Trunks and Coffers against domesticks ? Can men give a clearer testimony of the fear and distrust they have each of other , and all of all ; and that the first stop that was put to the state of war , was upon the accompt of fear , and that it is not yet quite ended ? & therefore are you not asham'd to fight against your selves , that you may quarrel me ? Thus I use to school over such small objectors , and little observers of humane affaires . Tim. And I pray , Sir , how did they use to take such a demonstration ? and what did thy use to say again ? Phi. E'en as much as thou art able to say now . What dost think all people in the world are amalepert as thy self ● , and talk again , when there is nothing to be said ? Tim. However , Philautus , if I had been there , rather than my tongue should have catch'd cold , I 'd have said over the alphabet , or somewhat or other ; if it had been only this . viz. We see indeed Castles , Walls , Draw-bridges , Guards , Guns , Swords , Doors , Locks , and the like . But surely it is not absolutely necessary to say that all this care is taken and these defences made , because Humane Nature at first was , and in generall still is a Whore , a Bitch , a Drab , a Cut-purse , &c. But because there be Doggs , Foxes , Hoggs , Children , Fooles , Madmen , Drunkards , Thieves , Pyrats and Philautians . And upon that accompt ( considering the wickedness of the world ) it is a most dangerous and frightfull thing to leave the Dairy-door open : for who knowes , but on a suddain the Sow , having some small scruples about meum and tu●m , may rush in with her train of little thoughts , and invading the Milk-bowles should rejoyce in the confusion . And in like manner I am almost throughly convinced , that if I have a Diamond of considerable value , it is not the safest way to fling it into the shoe-hole , or to lay it in the window amongst the Bay-leaves : because perhaps the waggish Ratts , to make me spend candle , may carry it away , and hide it up in the cock-loft ; or a child may have a mind to try whether it will sink or swim , or may swallow it instead of a new fashioned Sugar plumb ; or lastly because I may chance to have a ●ervant , who being not well dried of the state of nature , may make use of the members of his body to remove it from the place where I laid it . And I must needs tell you , Philautus , if a friend or so should intend me a visit , who , I was sure , did really believe no good or evil before the Statutes of the Kingdome , I should count my self in all prudence oblig'd , to set a very strong lock upon my mustard pot . But to go on , Philautus , you observe besides from Constables and watches , that man is a most dreadfull creature : but before you be very sure of that conclusion , I would have you call to mind , that there be such things in the world as madmen , who may get from their fetters , and fall to ●iring of houses : and there be such things as Quakers and fift Monarcy-men , whose religious frenzy may disturb the peace : and there be also such things which in the morning were true lawfull men , who by night with intemperance have lost that priviledge : and these for a time may be as troublesome in the streets , as a wild Boar or Ox : And lastly there may be here and there some besides , call'd Pilferers , and Thieves , who count it a piece of dull pedantry to live by any set forme and profession , or to be guided by any reason , or to stand in any Lawes : and for you to conclude from hence , that Humane Nature in general ' is a shirking , rooking , pilfering , padding nature , is as extravagant , as to say that the chief of mankind are perfectly distracted , and that the true state of nature is a state of perpetuall drinkenness . And what if most Nations have Guards , and Castles , and be upon defence ? you must not infer that all men are Rogues , because Alexander had a mind to try an experiment , and to see how much mischief he could doe in his whole life-time : or because the Caesars spoiled many Kingdomes , & brought them into slavery , for the excellen jest of pure Latin , and Roman liberty : or because the Turk gave two pence for a Pigeon to tell him from above that all the earth was his . You know , Philautus , our own Nation never wanted Horses , Ships , Men and valour to have trampled down many of its Neighbours : but such have been the equity and generosity of our Kings as ( unless highly provoked ) to stay at home . Phi. You never found that I asserted that all the people in the world are shirks and raskals : But I may confidently assert that there be some ; and seeing that we do not know them , and cannot distinguish them from the good , there 's a necessity ( as I tell you in my Epistle ) of suspecting , heeding , anticipating , subjugating , and self-defending . Tim. I pray do so much as understand me , Philautus ; I am not against your putting all those words and forty more into practice . Ride with eight suspecting pistols , and half a dozen heeding swords : Let a file of anticipating Musqueteers walk constantly before you , and as many subjugating ones behind ; plant a defending blunderbuss upon the top of your stairs ; put on a head-piece instead of a quilted cap , and sleep in perfect armour : or if this be not sufficient , beg leave of his Majesty that you may have a bed set up in the Exchequer , or surrender your self every night to the Lievtenant of the Tower ; and let him be extraordinarily obliged , that you awake in safety next morning . In short , take as much care of your self , as you think most just , ( for you know your worth best ; ) but from your own distrust and fear , I do earnestly desire that you would not determine any thing concerning the general disposition and temper of humane nature ; and that if a mouse comes to lick the save-all , you would not alarum the whole Christian world , and cry out that the Turk is landed . This I say is all that I desire of you ; for when you tell us that there be Thieves , and that we don't know them , and if we did , we do not know what day we may meet them , this was very well and very fully understood by every Carrier and Drover many years before you writ your Politicks : and now since you have such an excellet gift of making things plain , be pleased to exercise a little upon t'other reason , why men that are in the state of nature do choose to enter into society . For , as for people compounding out of ●ear , or not seeking society for its own sake , I now fully understand . As I remember you seemed to say further , that society was a thing meerly by chance , because that no man in the state of nature could have any right or pretence to any part of this World. Phi. I s●orn to be one of those that seem only to say things : If there be any doubt , I say nothing ; if there be none , then I speak , declare and publish . And therefore I do now make it known , that no man whilst he is in the state of nature has right or title to so much as one foot of Land or spire of grass . And now my mouth is open , I do declare further , that whereas a company of Metaphysical Term-drivers do love to talk of intrinsecal and essential right and wrong , good and evil , and the like ; they are every one utterly besotted , there being no such thing at all , but what the Magistrate pleases so to appoint . Tim. As for the latter part of your declaration , I shall not meddle with it as yet : but of the former I am obliged to take present notice : Wherein you say , that by nature no man has any right to any part of this world ; which if true , then our four natural Gallants have perfectly lost their Journey , and must forthwith entreat the Sun , to draw them back again ; there being no living here , unless they might take and enjoy what they find . Phi. I prethee , Tim , what figure is this objection in ? Thou talkest just as if thou camest reeking hot from Barbara — I must therefore teach thee that these people that came lately down , are very wellcome , and may live very happily ; if they endeavour , and agree so to live : But till they have agreed and bargained , not any one of them can possibly claim any peculiar right or interest in the very least spot of the whole Island . Tim. Your instructions , Sir , I thank you begin now to enter ; because Ionas Moore is not as yet come to divide , and set out the ground , and to call this piece starve-crow , and t'other long acre ; and because the white posts or blew balls are not as yet up at Roger's doore ; and that Dick has not determined what livery to give , and what coat of arms to set upon his sheeps backs ; and because there are no hedges , ditches , or walls to keep asunder the Inhabitants cattle : Therefore say you , none of these have any reason to demand the least right to any part of the whole Island . You know , Sir , a man may have a right to a fourth , eighth , or any other part of a ship , though he be not able to say , this rope is mine ; and t'other is my neighbours : And a hundred several men may have a common , and yet certain right to a piece of ground , and yet never a one of them can set forth , that his share lies just at the gate , and another man's next the water side . Phi. This is said so like one not capable of improvement , that I am asham'd to be seen in thy company : For when thou talkest of common rights , I am confident thou meanest such grounds as are called Commons ( where the Town herd and Town geese go ) which are held by as much bargain , and covenant as thou holdest thy hat or coat by . Tim. To be just and honest , Philautus , I did mean so , I profess : And I said it on purpose to see how angry you would be , at one of your own sort of tricks , when put upon you by another . Phi. I do abominate all such tricks , and those that devised them . If you 'l hear sence , then attend : When I say that no man by nature can have any estate or right ; I don 't only understand thereby , that Roger is not as yet fixed in the East , nor the rest in their particular quarters : but till they have bargained , they can make no claim to any part or proportion whatever , either in equity , right , law or justice . Surely thou canst not be so ignorant , but one of those words will fall to thy share to understand . Tim. I thank you , Sir , that you were so generous , as to give me such choice : For now I understand you as fully , as if you had blown up your meaning into my head with a quill . For as much as Roger forgot to bring his black box of Evidences , and transferred rights along with him ; and thereupon has not been able as yet to obtain a Decree in Chauncery , or a Verdict at Common law for his share ; therefore Roger has none , no● in reason is likely to have any . What , would you have had him to have tied up twelve Iudges in a corner of his handkerchief , and brought down Westminster Hall in his trowzes ? Phi. I shall not now be so idle as to say what I 'd have him to have done : But I 'le tell thee , Tim , what I would have such a child as thou art to do , ( unless thou art very eager of continuing a fool ) namely ; ask thy self , or that same thing within thee ▪ which silly people have got a custom of calling Conscience , whether thou now hast , or ever hadst any thing in thy whole life , or right to any thing but by Covenant , contract and law . Tim. I shall do it , Sir , immediatly . Here , where art thou ( as they call thee ) Conscience ? Come forth and let Tim ( according to Philautus's advice ) ask thee a question . How camest thou by those shoes ? By what means and upon what design didst thou acquire a right and propriety in them , and dominion over them ? Did thy feet bud , and bring forth shoes ? Don't cogg now and shuffle , but speak plain , for very much depends hereupon . Consc. Truly , Tim , having looked a little into the World , and Antient Writers , and observing that some stones were very hard , some very sharp , and others very dirty , for fear I should bruise , cut or offend the lower part of the man called the feet ; I thought fit to treat with a Shoemaker ; and after some parly and overtures we come at last to close covenant : And , as I was saying before , for fear of catching cold I took the shoes , and for fear he should never see me again , he took my money . Phi. And thus thou wouldest find it , Tim , if thou shouldest examine thy self from top to toe . Viz. That every thing thou hast or ever hadst , is all upon some immediate or foregoing compact : Neither is there any natural way of distinguishing between meum and tuum , but only by such means as I have laid down . Tim. Truly , Phila●tus , I am very nigh of your opinion : Viz. That it would be a very hard matter for the most cunning and experienced Midwife to distinguish exactly between a child that is born Lord of a Mannour , and a Tenant . Unless such as the first were born with the Court-rolls in their mouth , or had all stars in their forehead ; and the latter had all shorn manes and cropt eares . You have been several times , Philautus , angry , since we began to discourse ; it ●s time , I think , for me to be so now . Phi. With whom ? Tim. E'en with your own Political self , as old as you are : For you go and appoint a company of people to come , I know not whence ; and to bring with them nothing but their pure personalities ; and to arrive at a place , where 's not the least Custom , Law , or Statute : And then in your discourse you fetch all your Arguments from want of such Customs , Laws , and Statutes . That is , I 'le suppose an Island where there 's not so much as one dogg : And then I 'le determine , that jus shall signifie nothing in the world but a dogg ; and then I will conclude against all mankind , that if Roger comes thither , he shall not have a bit of right : i. e. he will find never a dogg . If you suppose , Philautus , suppose one thing with another , viz. that which is possible : As for your state of nature ( though it be sufficiently extravagant ) yet I was resolved to keep you company ; and to be either for mushroomes or bubbles , or bladders , or teeth , or cherry-stones , or any thing that could be devised . But when you determine with your self that there shall be no Acts of Parliament , and yet all the while reason so , as if there were such , I must confess that I must then leave you . Phi. Now have I no mind at all to part with the : but to put my self into such an odd kind of displeasure , as to suffer thee to talk on without pity ; only to see how far thou wouldest abuse thy self , if thou hadst but thy full swing . And therefore I do say again , that where there is no Law , there can be no right . Now , it is five to one , if thou dost not prate presently : do so , thy whole gut full . Perhaps this may bring thee into some moderation , and beter respect of those that are aged . Tim. Truly under favour , Sir , I am thinking thus — Phi. Nay , for thinking , think till thy heart strings crack : but that won't satisfie thee , for thou must prate I know . Tim. Yes , Sir : Suppose a man pays down five thousand pounds for an Estate ; and accordingly receives writings before sufficient witnesses : And it happens that the following night his writings are all burnt , and his witnesses all die . What law now has he for his money ? His conveyances are gone towards the Moon , and his witnesses t'other way . Phi. Thou dost not understand , that he of whom the Estate was purchased , may be brought upon his oath : There 's law , Tim , that thou didst not think of . Tim. But I 'le have that man the same night to die also ; and his Heir shall be five hundred miles off , when the bargain was made . This is much easier to suppose , Philautus , than to make men out of bladders . Now here 's no Law in the case for the Purchaser ; but he has much right and reason on his side . Phil. This 't is to talk of Law and not understand it : I say there 's no reason at all that he should ever have , or enjoy the least part of the Estate . For if this were allowed , whenever a man wanted a good house , and gardens , it were but saying that his witnesses are dead , and his writings lost , and he might e'en pick his seat whereever he pleased . Tim. I grant you , it is not reasonable , i. e. it is not convenient that there should be room made for such pretenses : But the man notwithstanding hath never the less right to the Estate : which consisted in the bargain and true performance of Covenants ; not in the Parchments , wax and witnesses , which are requisite only by reason of death , mistakes , forgetfulness , ambiguity of words , knavery , and the like . Phi. And art thou now so very ●illy as to dream that any of this is against me ? For thou hast given an instance of right in a Common-wealth ; where there 's bargaining and Law : And our business lies all this while about the state of nature , where there 's neither one nor t'other . But indeed how can any thing less impertinent be possibly expected from such who having only gone through a course of the praedicaments — Tim. And run over your race of the Passions : I pray don't forget that . Phi. Who , I say , having saved together a few Academical shreds , and pedantically starched up a few distinctions and trifles got from the Schools , shall prate and swagger , as if they were well acquainted with both the Poles , and every thing that lies between them . Tim. And as if they could square the circle , as well as your self : Let that come in I beseech you . It was most pedantically done of the Vniversity Doctour ; that when you had so painfully squared it for the general good of mankind , he should spightfully go and unsquare it again . But hold , Sir , we forget our selves : For we are in a state of nature or war , and we fall to complementing , as if the peace were concluded : And therefore I shall return to my instance concerning Right and Law. Which , now I tell you , Philautus , I gave not , intending therein any great store of proof , ( much less any demonstration , as you use to do ) but I did it only to supple and soften you into a little less difficulty of distinguishing between that which is right and reasonable , and that which is according to the Laws of the Realm . Phi. What , dost talk of suppling of me , Tim ? I prethee go home and put thy head into a pipkin , and there stew it , till thou gettest more wit. What , dost think , because I look upon my body as a good considerable thing , that therefore I am so great a Coward as to submit to nonsence , and comply with impossibilities ; and to be mistaken only because it is the general fashion ? I shall not do so , indeed Tim : supple and soften as long as you will. And therefore to ruine all your hopes at once , I do say that those four men that we have supposed in the state of Nature , have not the least right to any part of the Island ; not only because their share or portion is not as yet bounded and marked out , or because they cannot require any part by Humane law : but besides , because Nature has given to every one of them an absolute , compleat , total right to every thing that 's there to be found . Tim. What has Nature given to Dick ; suppose , a right to the whole Kingdom : with all the profits , priviledges , perquisites , and appurtenances ? Phi. I prethee , Tim , climb up some high Steeple or Tower , and wonder there . I have other business to do than to stay only to see thee stare at sunshine truths and demonstrations . What I have said , I have weighed , which young toys , as thou art , never do . Tim. Then truly Dick has reason to speak very laudably of Nature ; for he 's in a very fine thriving condion . I 'le have the Rogue add a pair of horses more to his coach , and to keep two foot-boys , one for sack and another for claret ; in Liveries answerable to the colour of their duties . I am resolved he shall never fit but in a box , drink nothing but flaskes , eat nothing that has an English name , and wipe his mouth only with Indian Almanacks . But how shall poor Roger make shift to live ? He must e'en try , to earn his penny with lighting home Norfolk Attourney's Clerks . Phi. Thou art so infinitely uncapable , Tim , that one had as good pick up old rags for paper , as labour to make thee understand . For if thou hadst any brains thou mightest know , that Nature has given to Roger all , notwithstanding Dick's grant . Tim. Say you so ? Then rise up Roger , and tumble down Dick. Phi. I prethee , Tim , away presently , and according as I gave order , set on thy head ; for it will never make shift to do , as it now lies . Who , except Tim , but would easily have apprehended , how that Roger might have a right to it all , notwithstanding Dick to all of it had a right ? Tim. Oh the wonderful works of a black pudden with anchovie-sance ! This 't is to have joyned Logick with Mathematicks ! For take one for cunning , and t'other for soundness , and betwixt them both , they 'l make up such a title , as would have pusled old Prin himself to have found out a pattern of it . But what becomes of Tumbler and Towser all this while ? The World certainly is very low with them : For if Dick has got All , and Roger has got the same All , over , besides , and notwithstanding ; the Devil is of it , if between them both they don't keep out t'other two . Phil. I am quite tired with calling thee fool , though I perceive the occasion increases very much . I don't say that Dick and Roger have got it all ; but I say they have got a right to get it all , and so have the rest . Tim. And may Dick or any other of them , in right and reason , get it all , if they can ? Phi. I prethee step to the gate , and ask the Porter that . Must I spend my self to tell thee again , that we are in the state of Nature ; in which , whatever a man has a mind to do , and can do , he may do . Tim. Why so ? What , because may and can are of the same Mode and Tense , or that possum is Latin for them both ? Phi. No ; thou perverse trifler ; that 's not the reason : But because in the state of Nature , there 's no difference at all between May and Can. Tim. That is ; because Roger has a vocal instrument between his chin and his nose , called a mouth , and being not muzled , gagged or cop'd ; but having a free power , faculty or May to open it , and order it as he think fit ; therefore he May stretch it out as wide as he please , and swear quite cross the Island , that he 'l have the whole , or at least half : And because he has other instruments called hands , which have an ability of holding and directing a knife ; therefore again he May make use thereof to cut the throats of all his Countreymen . And when he has done this ; if he be not tired , and his hands does not much shake , he May also cut his own . Phi. Surely I ought not to forgive my self this Month for beeing within the noise of such childish talk . My reason that Roger , whilst in the state of Nature , may do any thing ( except hurting himself ) or require any thing , was because he cannot be injurious or unjust to any man : Injury or injustice being the breach of some Humane laws , such as in the state of Nature there be none . Do so much , as go to thy Dictionary , Tim , and see if injuria and injustitia be not deriv'd of jus . Tim. I perceive we are wheel'd about to Westminster Hall again : notwithstanding you promised not to come there any more . And indeed I see now , Philautus , 't is in vain to expect any better reason from you , why Roger may get and possess what he list : by reason what you said just before , viz. that , that only was injustice which was the breach of some humane law , is in your own Annotations upon the tenth Article of your first Chapter ▪ So that we see whereabouts we still are : the Parliament is not as yet met , or at least have not as yet made any Lawes , and wee 'l call nothing unjust , but what shall be done against somewhat that they afterwar● shall establish : and so we are come again into the old story of the dogg : and no further are we likely to proceed , unless we change injury and injustice for some other words . And therefore let 's try , Philautus , if Roger may not doe that which is hurtfull or mischievous , or that which is unreasonable . As suppose , when all the rest are asleep , he should contrive some way to pluck out all their eyes , and to suck them instead of raw eggs . 'T is very ingenious , and not the least mischiefe or hurt at all : for the Parliament have not as yet declar'd that blindness is any inconvenience ; nor that such as should occasion it in others , ought to be punish'd . Phi. Thou thinkest now that thou talkest wisely : and 't is as like a Woodcock as can be . For if Roger's stomach require it , or he thinkes that it does , Roger may certainly doe it . Tim. Yes , yes : He may doe it several ways , either with a Steletto , or a Penknife , or a pair of Pincers , or many other ways . And so he may contrive to lop off a legg of each of them : and when the Parliament meet , if they find it unjust , they may vote it on again . But because we may take occasion to talk a little more of this by and by , wee 'l go on , and see if these people may not be guilty of doing or requiring that which is unreasonable . Phi. I don 't at all see how . Tim. That is , because you are so busie in weighing of Kingdoms , and making remarkes upon humane affairs , that you don't mind your own writings . For if you did , you might there find that in your very state of Nature , the will is not the only measure of right , and that therein a man may be guilty of doing of that which is unreasonable . Phi. I do not know why I should say so , or any thing like it . Tim. Why you said it I know not : and I suppose it had been better for you not to have said it , because it contradicts much of your designe : but thus you say at the beginning of the forementioned A●notations , Though a man in the state of Nature cannot be injurious to another , because there are as yet no Hum●ne Lawes ; yet in such a state he may offend God , or break the Lawes of Nature : which very Lawes , you your self call the Lawes of reason . So that you have no way to come cleaverly off , but to devise some cunning distinction between breaking a Law of reason , and doing that which is unreasonable . Phi. What dost think , Tim , that ●t these years , and after so much experience , and after so many victories in discourse , that I will be taught by such a whister as thou art , to come off . It is sufficient at present , to the case in hand , to ●ay that nothing can be done or demanded unreasonably as to the matter of meum and tuum . Tim. You had best have a care of granting any kind of thing whatever to be unreasonable in the state of Nature : because you know the Magistrat has not as yet sealed and stamp'd good and evil : but 〈◊〉 that pass now . Suppose then that they should fight for the Island . Shall we give them a second view , and another loose ? we had best not . For you know , as you teach us : that men by Nature are all equal . i. e. though Roger may chance to have huge Leggs , yet Dick may have the quicker eye : and though Tumbler may have a very large fist , and a great gripe , yet Towser may be in better breath , and have longer nailes . Phi. No : no : I prethee don't let them fight by any meanes ; for that is so very foolish and unreasonable , that it is unreasonable to hear of it . Tim. Well : imagine then that they doe not fight : may not Roger , when they come to treat , demand more than his share ? as suppose ( as was before hinted ) he should demand half . Phi. So he may , if he please ; and get it too : there 's no Vnder-sheriff to hinder him : neither has he subscribed to any agreement , nor sworn that he 'l be content with less . Tim. But he ought in reason and equity to be content with less . Phi. I prethee , Tim , with how much less ? Thou lookest as if thou couldst tell to an inch . Tim. So I can . For he ought to be content just with a fourth part . Phi. This surely is very pleasant ! Why so Tim ? Tim. Because you say that he has a right to no more . Phi. Where and in what company did I ever say , that Roger had a right but to a fourth part ? but that I don't care to talk of dying , or else I 'd be hang'd if I ever said any such thing in my whole life . Tim. You said it just now . For you said that Roger has a right to the whole Island , and Dick has a right to the whole , and Tumbler and Towser have each of them a right also to the whole . And now shew me if there be any difference at all between four men having exactly the very same , same right to the whole , and one of them having a right to the fourth part , and no more . Phi. Pish ! Tim , thou talkest ( as thou usest to doe ) very weakly . For when I said that every one of them had a right to all : I meant by right — Tim. Nay , I care not what you did mean or ever can mean by it . I 'l give you leave to meane by right what you please . A Dog or a Cat or any thing else . For still Dick's dog will be every whit as good as Roger's , and Towser's Cat as big as Tumbler's . And so the case will be the same . Phi. If I may not be suffered , Tim , to make an end of my sentence , who have instructed above these threescore years , I shall be gon . Tim. Not so , I pray , Sir : You shall say what you please , for indeed I had like to have forgot your age and privilege . Phi , I say then , that there can be no right to any part of this world by Nature . For we see people dwell in their Fathers houses , and possess their ancestors estates : and all by custom and right of Law. Tim. You said all this many times before : and I say so too : and you know I told you , how I got an interest in these shoes ; and I could tell you also that I got my Gloves by a meer stratagem , and that I hold them only by the Lawes of the Realm . But we must not conclude , Phila●tus , because most of the world is now shar'd out , and by Gift , Fortune , Labour , Learning and other means gain'd and possessed ; that therefore if four men , with equall pretences , shall fall upon a place never sought for , nor possessed , one of these ( if he so pleases ) may in good reason broile all the rest , to see what mouthes and faces they 'l make upon the coals . Phi. This is nothing : give me in short all that you have said , or can say to prove that the forementioned people have any right to any part of Pines : and I don 't at all question , but that I shall discover all that thou hast said to be very empty and Scholastically dull . Tim. I say thus : the men that we ●upposed are true Natural men , the place they come to , is perfectly unpossessed , they all arrive with equall pretences , and you your self besides have given them an equall right . And I know nothing wanting , unless like snayles each of them should have brought their houses on their heads , and rid down stradling upon their hundred acres : which might have stretch'd their thighs , and would have spoyled the supposition . This is that which I have to say , which I venture only to think reasonable . Now for your opinion , you have offered nothing but a company of impossible things ( excepting only that May and Can is all one ) such as mens shaking hands at a mile's distance , treating and● bargaining before they speake , Acts of Parliament before there be any Parliament , and the like , and this you take your accustomed liberty to call demonstration . Phi. I thought I should take thee in some foolery or other : thou talkest of these peoples coming together , and thereupon of having equall pretences ; and thou forgettest all this while that possession and invention ( as they call it ) are pieces of meer positive humane Law , not of any Natural right . If thou wilt call upon me one day , I 'le shew thee how to turn the Books , where thou mai'st find abundance about them . Tim. I believe I might : and about a hundred things more , that are never the less equitable and reasonable in themselves , because they are to be found in the Law of Nations , or the particular Law of any Kingdom . Phi. What , can that be intrinsecally and in reason good or bad , that is made so by Constitution or Canon ? Tim. What think you , Philautus , of a man's hanging himself ? is there any intrinsecal Natural evil in it ? Phi. Evil ! there'● Death in the case : the chiefest of all natural evils . Tim. So I remember you say ( Cap. 1. Art. 7. ) but there is the severest Law against him that does it , that can be devised ; unless he could be fetch'd to life , and hang'd again . For he forfeits all his Estate . Do you hear me , Sir ? Phi. Yes : But I am not of such a young mans mind , as you are : neither do I ever intend to be . Tim. That 's spoken like a Philosopher indeed . Phi. It is spoken like one , that good manners might oblige you , to be more attentive to . Do you think , Tim , that towards my last dayes ( which I hope will never come ) ●'le alter my opinion , upon such childish and insignificant perswasions as thine ? And believe that a man can have any Naturall right or title to Land , when I so certainly know , that in general there 's no kind whatever of just or unjust , right or wrong , good or evil , but what the Magistrate does signe and determine ? Tim. Upon my word , Philautus , you improve very much as to daringness in your assertions . For seeing that we have found out already in the very state of Nature just , and unjust , as to absolute dirt and Earth , I hope we shall be able with much more ease , to find out a little good and evil . Phi. You must have better eyes , than ever I met any body had yet . Tim. However I 'le bestow a little looking ; and I hope I shall not lose it altogether so much , as they that went to see the invisible dogg . Especially , Philautus , if you will but continue couragious , and when you talk of justice , not fetch about as you did before to my Lord Chief Iustice , and Iustices of the Peace , and the like . Phi. What need you fear my giving back ? when as you 'l find it Printed in my Preface , that there are no Authentical Doctrines concerning just and unjust , right and wrong , good and evil , but what is so determined by the constituted Laws in each Realm and Government . And by those , to whom the Supreme has committed the interpretation of his Laws . Tim. When you jumble all those words together , Philautus , viz. just , unjust , &c. I phansie that you still lie upon the old cheat . And because by Bargain , Indenture or Patent , I hold such a Farme , such a Coalemine , or such and such Priviledges ; therefore I must send for a Lawyer to draw me up a Conveyance for modesty and mercy ; and get the Broad-seal to give me title to be faithfull and sober . Phi. Thou talkest of Titles and Conveyances ; thou wantest some body to make over a little understanding to thee . For what can be more intelligible than just and unjust ? but yet because my Book might possibly meet with such a toole as thou art , I added besides wright and ●rong . Tim. You know , Philautus , ( as was before hinted ) that that 's as very a fetch , as t'other . For , because of the relation that is between jus and lex , we face presently about again to Freehold and Coppyhold , to Messuages and Appurtenances . Phi. Because , Tim , I would gladly be rid of thee ; thou shalt put in lawful and unlawful : My side is so true , that I may give thee leave to pick thy words . Tim. Now you are sweet indeed : for you suppose a time , wherein there 's no Law : And then to use your own words , by firm reasons you demonstrate that no Law can be broken during that time : and he that does thus , say you ( meaning your self ) is to be looked upon as a great dispeller of clouds , and as one that shews the high way to peace , and that teaches to avoid the close , dark and dangerous by-paths of Faction , and I know not what more . Phi. What a slavery 't is , to do one good , that labours so hard against it ! Tim. You need not trouble your self any further , Philautus ; for you have your self put in two words that will fully try the business , viz. good and evil . Each of which , say you , are to be determined by the Supreme Power . Phi. Yes : I say it ; and I am sure no man is able to contradict me : For who is so fit to judge what is good or evil , as the Supreme Power ? and what shall direct or determine his opinion but his own pleasure . Tim. I 'le tell you what shall direct him — Phi. Hold : do you know what you are going to say ? ●ex in regno suo — Stat pro ratione voluntas . Supremus sive summus . What , Tim , art thou so utterly barren , that thou hast neither Divinity , Poetry , nor Grammar within thee ? Thou speakest of a supreme power , and then talkest of his being awed and contro●led by somewhat else . To have such a supreme power is not worth the smoak of a ladle . Such a one is supreme , suppose , and he thinks such a thing very good and convenient , and he 〈◊〉 send it to the Pope or Emperour , 〈◊〉 I know not whither , to have it ●ouched and tried , to know whether 't will pass . Tim. He need not send so far ; he may consult common equity , and his own reason ; which will not only direct him , in determining of those things that are indifferent , or in controversie ( which are the proper object of such authority ; ) but which will acquaint him and all mankind besides ( excepting Philautus ) that there be several things most firmly and undoubtedly good in themselves , and will continue so , let all the Supremes in the World meet together to Vote them down ; and there be others which are so famously bad and unreasonable , that all the P●inces upon earth ( if they should conspire ) can never set them up , and give them credit . Phi. And is not this very pragmatical , and somewhat treasonish besides , to go about to confine the Power of the Supreme Magistrate , who is therefore called and acknowledged such , from his undeniable and irresistable pleasure ? And therefore , say I again , he ought most certainly to determine all things . Tim. So say I , if they be not too nimble for his Power , and determine themselves before his Supremacy can get hold of them . And truly , Philautus , the Magistrate has no reason at all to be angry , or to think himself checked & affronted ; if there be some such things that decree themselves to be good and bad , long before Terme begins ; viz. in that same supposed Vacation of yours , the state of Nature . For , when he comes to open , and give sentence , he will not only find much work done to his hands , but he 'l find besides that hereby he 'l be very much assisted towards well governing , and towards his deciding such matters as require deciding , and which do belong to his place and profession to decide . But as for those things we have been now speaking of , he must not by any means go about to alter or repeal them : For , if he should , it would be altogether as vain , as to call a Council to make two and three to be nineteen ; or to issue out an order against the next Eclipse , or to mount all the Canons at the Tower against the next spring-tide that should offer to come up to London-Bridge . Phi. Certainly , Tim , these same unalterable and irrevocable goods and bads that thou talkest of in the state of Nature are very fine things . The Magistrate , thou sayst , did not make them ; I wonder who did , whence they came , and who brought them ? Tim. They came down , Sir , the last great rain , we talked of a while ago ; for the very same four men that brought word to Pines , that the Whole is equal to all its par●● ; and that if four have equal right to the whole , each have a right to the fourth part ; brought also abundance of moral rules , that is of goods and bads , reasonables and unreasonables . Phi. Abundance dost say ? I don't think that thou hast enough to stop a hollow-tooth . I would brush up my eyes most mightily , if thou wouldest but shew me one of those rarities . But I am afraid that they are like those same perpetual Lamps , that some Philosophers speak of , which have got a trick of going out always when people go to see them . Tim. What think you of drunkenness , Philautus ? Is it a thing altogether indifferent , till the Magistrate has given his opinion in the case ? Phi. Truly , Tim , I must tell you , that whilst Dick , Roger , and the rest continue in the state of Nature , they may take a cup of the creature with more freedome and less inconvenience , than thou dost imagine . For the windows are not as yet glazed , nor the Constables chosen : and if one of them having received an occasion of being more than ordinary thoughtful , should , by chance , set his foot not exactly in the path ; here 's no breach of Law , Trespass or Action in the Case , because the Land as yet stands wholly undivided . Tim. But it is not very bad husbandry to make an hundred steps for that , which might have been done as well with forty ? Phi. Now , Tim , I advise thee to take leave of thy friends ; for thou hast said that , which will prove thy utter destruction . I do grant indeed that intemperance is very silly and unreasonable ; not because it is so in it self , but because ( now , Tim , keep thy eye fixed ) I say again , but because 't is inpolitick , and perfectly against my interest : for it makes me obnoxious to many dangers , and several diseases ; and besides it destroys and weakens the use of my reason , and so renders me unable either to defend my estate from cheats , or my life and limbs from such as are quarrelsom . Tim. Truly , Philautus , I did never look upon temperance to be altogether so good to kill Rats , as Arsnick and Raysons ; nor to carry one over the water , as a sculler or oares : But if there be any reason to be given , why it ought to be approved of before the contrary , besides the Magistrates determination therein , then ( as was before mentioned ) you are not so great a dispeller of Clouds , as you promised to be , when you said , that by firm reasons you would demonstrate that there was no good or evil till the Supreme Power had set it out : and therefore at present I resolve to defer speaking to self interest ; and shall shew you another rarity . What think you of faithfulness , i. e. of keeping your promise , or standing to your bargain ? Is it not a very reasonable thing , though there were never a Magistrate in the whole World ? Phi. You talk of shewing me rarities , Tim ; and you draw out some of my fundamental wares : for to perform Contracts , or to keep trust is my second Law of Nature . That is , when people are resolved to end the state of war , by relinquishing their right to all things , it is very requisite that Contracts should be stood to , for they direct to peace and self-defence . Tim. But is it not a good and reasonable thing in it self to perform Contracts , in the very state of nature ? Phi. What time didst thou go to bed last night , Tim ? What , would you have a thing good , before there be any such thing at all ? You ask whether it be not good to stand to Contracts ; when 't is supposed , that there has not been so much as one ragg dealt for in the whole world . Tim. For all that , I can conceive it very just and reasonable for a man to keep his word , although he never spoke as yet , nor perhaps never shall . For suppose there were not one drop of Liquor in the whole Island , that we have been talking of ; yet I count it as unreasonable for Roger to be drunk , as if he were just ready to set the great pitcher to his mouth , and had sufficient matter to proceed upon . And it seems , I believe , to most men ( except your self , Philautus ) a very unnatural and unjust thing for a Iudge or Arbiter to incline to either side ; though there never was as yet one Case put to reference , nor should be these thousand years . Phi. Thou hast gone on , Tim , in thy careless shuffling way , I know not whither : And now I must dash thee all in pieces , and tell thee ; that thou talkest like one not at all conversant in my Writings : for if thou hadst , thou wouldst there have found no less than twenty good and bad things , all fetched from reason ; such as faithfulness , mercy , humility , temperance , reproach , ingratitude , &c. which I call my Laws of Nature . But here 's the pinch of the business , and that which thou didst never attend to ; these things I say are good and bad , not because they are so inwardly in themselves , but because they either conduce to peace in general , or are for a man 's own quiet and safety , or for his health , or profit , or recreation , or for the advantage of his Family or Relations , or are a hinderance of these : in short , because they are for , or against a man's interest . Tim. This was a great dash indeed , Philautus ; and I have improved more by it , than by all that you have said I know not how long : for if we be discoursing concerning some action , or disposition of mind that is good ; and if the same chance to prove convenient either to King or Subject , Church or State , for my self or any body else , for this life or next : That is , if it be good for any thing that has but a name , then is it not good in it self , but good upon another account ; which , let it be what it will , with a little art●fice of phrase may be so twisted , as it shall certainly be all driven upon your common shoar of interest . Truly , Philautus , I can scarce tell what you would have meant by things being good in themselves , unless you would have them only to be pictured with pretty eyes , mouths and lips ; or have a man get the vertues and hang them upon several strings , or tye them to the end of some sticks , and so sing over his most excellent and dainty Iustice , his curious amiable Temperance , his bright angelical Mercy , and the like . But I might have taken much less pains , Philautus , to have shewn against you , that all good and evil does not depend either upon self interest , or h●mane Law ; because you are so very over kind as to acknowledge it , and confute your self . Phi. You may as well say , that the second Proposition of Euclid does contradict and void the first . Tim. You may say so , if you please ▪ but I am resolved I won't , when I see so much reason to say otherwise . Phi. About what place , and in what Article , canst thou possibly pick out any such absurdity ? Tim. I did shew you one place , you know , long ago ; where you said , that a man in the very state of Nature might be guilty of breaking the Laws of Nature ; which is all one , according to your self , as to say , that a man may act against reason , before there be any positive Laws ; and that 's all that I desire you would acknowledge : Neither do I suppose , that you did intend to excuse your self , by what you say a little after , viz. If any man pretend somewhat to tend necessarily to his preservation , which yet he himself doth not confidently believe so , he may offend against the Laws of Nature : For this is a further acknowledgement of what you said before ; and shews plainly that hypocrisie in the very state of Nature is an unreasonable thing . Phi. You may fool your self , Tim , and gape for as many acknowledgements as you will : But I hold and say that the Laws of nature in the state of nature are silent ; provided that they be referred not to the mind , but to the actions of men . Tim. I remember you say this , in the second Article of your fifth Chapter . But , if you had not forgot , what you had said upon the 18. Art. of your 3. Chap. you would have granted that some natural Laws do more than meerly buz in the mind , during the very state of war or nature . Phi. Why , what do I say there ? Tim. No great matter , Sir ; only I find there these words ; viz. but there are certain natural Laws whose Exercise ( I pray mind that word ) ceaseth not even in the time of war it self : For ( as you go on ) I cannot understand what drunkenness or cruelty ( that is revenge which respects not the future good ) can advance towards peace or the preservation of any man. Phi. Now what dost thou infer from this , Tim ? What purchase dost thou intend to make ? Tim. No great purchase , Sir ; only I do think that the second Proposition of Euclid does not altogether contradict the first so much , as these two places do one another . Phi. And now thou thinkest , thou hast got me so fast ; whereas I can come off easily only by saying , that I did not mean all the Laws of Nature , when I said that the Laws of nature are silent in the state of nature . Tim. If you please , Sir , you may so explain your self : But however , if you your self , Philautus , will bestow upon me only one or two Laws that ought to be observed in the state of Nature , I take it more kindly , than if any body else had given me half a score . Phi. I always found it an endless thing to reason and discourse people into any soundness of mind , ( especially as to Morals ) who would not make any observations of their own . And therefore I prethee , Tim , go spend one quarter of an hour in the streets , and I 'le stay here ; and observe well , what people are doing of ; and when thou comest back again , I do not at all question but that thou wilt fully believe what I have taught thee to be true ; namely , that the world is wholly disposed of , and guided by self-interest . Tim. I need not go now , Sir ; because in the morning as I came hither , I found it exactly so , as you say . In one place there was a man buying a cloak , as hard as ever he could , not in the least for me , but for himself wholly ; and the seller he claws up the money , and without saying one word to his Neighbours , pockets it all up : In another place there was a Porter lying close upon the lurch at a Tavern-door , who , had he no interest to drive on there , might e'en as well have been here , upon the walks . Phi. Thou needest not speak any more , Tim , for I do say thus much unto thee , that unless thou dyest a fool , thou wilt perceive that interest is the very first principle of Nature , and reason ; and that men must mind themselves if they intend to live . Tim. Yes , Sir : So let them ; if they doe not overmind themselves : and cry only Milk , when they should cry milk and water ; and score up Claret , when it should be Cider . People ought , Sir , to take care of themselves : but I would not have them pick blind mens pockets , and cheat children of there Bread and Butter , and then admire their own parts , and quickness of sight . Interest , Philautus , is a word innocent enough , but only when it crosses equity and reason : which , according to you , it never can doe , being the first dictate of right reason . And therefore if righteousness or mercy , or any other good thing happen to be against this my first dictate of right reason ; I must desire them to withdraw for a time : for at present they are very troublsome and nonsence beside . Phi. And wilt thou be so childish after all these instructions , as not to believe that interest is , and ought to be the first principle ? Tim. It must needs be the first , Sir , for that very reason your self give : ( concerning seeking of peace ) namely , because the rest follow . Which you might easily make sure of , if the Printer did not misplace things , and so disappoint you . Phi. I perceive Tim , that thou art much given to delight in toys , and to neglect things of moment . My main reason that self interest is to be looked upon as the first Principle of Nature was , because I found that every man was desirous of what was good for him , and sh●n'd what was hurtful and evil : and this he did by a certain impulsion of Nature , no less than that whereby a stone moves downward . Tim. By your leave , Philautus , I think that this reason seems to promise somewhat bigger than the former , but it is not so true . For though children desire , and use meanes to get all things that please them ; and avoid and flie back from all things that hurt them , even as a stone comes downward : yet it is to be supposed that what men desire or avoid , they do it not as a stone comes downward , but with consideration and reason : and thereupon ought to submit to poverty and other inconveniences , rather than to reproach Humane Nature , and be guilty of an unreasonable action . And therefore a child that pulls hard for a jewel , which cost the owner perhaps much trouble , and many dangerous voiages , shall be excused : but there 's little reason that a great lasie Lubber that spends his time in the Chimney-corner and Ale , should snatch it away , and not cry for 't first . Phi. If he and his family be ready to starve , that alters the case very much : for 't is great pity that any rational creatures should be lost . Tim. Starve , or not starve 't is all one for that : for 't is a very lawfull cordial , so that it be but his opinion that he wants at present , or may afterward want . For seeing that right reason tells him that life is to be preserved : it tells him also ( as you well advise Ch. 1. Art. 8. ) that he must use the meanes to preserve it : and seeing that no man can know when another is sufficiently alive , so well as he himself , therefore ( as you advise further , Art. 9. ) he is to judge what is requisite and convenient for that purpose . And therefore sayes the self preserver , There 's a company of people who , when I was out of the way , have gon and divided the world without asking my leave , or taking my counsell , or consent : I am sure there 's no fault to be found with Nature : for she was alwayes very carefull , and intended every man a sufficient share . And therefore if they 'l begin once more , and divide all over again , and consider all mens deserts , strength and constitution , well and good : But otherwise I see no reason to stand to this blind bargain they made in my absence . For I find that my stomach is very cold , and Nature that is famous for doing nothing that is Idle , oft-time calls for a glass of Wine , and ( with shame to these dividers be it spoken ) it comes not , for want of money . I find also that my head is much given to aking , for want of a lighter Peruke ; and for want of a Boy to comb it , I had lately like to have lost the use of my Thumb . I can't doe as other people ; for my flesh is so soft and gentle , that ordinary stockings presently plough up my Leggs : and if I have not a Watch and a few Guineas about me , I presently yawn and am as chill as if I had an Ague . And therefore , I say , I must make use of my parts , and some of Reason's dictates to preserve me from sorrows and the Grave . Phi. Thou hast now , Tim , talked together , more than becomes thee by fourty years . To all which I say , that I do give thee and all mankind besides leave , to shew me any thing better for peace and Government than that first principle of self-interest which I laid down , and discovered to the world . Tim. It is strange ambition , when people will take upon them to be the Author of that of which they are not , though it be never so false and ridiculous . Phi. Why , who did ever hold self-interest to be the first principle of Nature and Government ? Tim. Truly , I believe not many ever held it long , because it was so egregiously silly . But if you look no further than the 3d. page of an ordinary Schoole book , viz. Tully's Offices : you will there find that there was a sort of small philosophers that were of your opinion . Phil. What , perhaps they talked somewhere in their writings of self-interest : but that was not the foundation and first principle of their Philosophy . Tim. If summum bonum be Latin for foundation or first principle ( which in morals , I suppose it is ) and that suis commodis metiri signifie to measure by self-interest ; then I tell you there were a sort of unreasonable people whose Philosophy stood upon your very Principle . Concerning whom the Oratour justly sayes , that if they lived a life exactly answerable to their own opinions , and were not sometimes overcome by good nature , they must be perpetuall knaves . Phi. I don't understand what you and your Oratour meane ; but this I 'le swear , that if there be any knavery in my principles , I know not what will become of your Bible . For I tried all my Lawes of Nature which I deduc'd from self interest by that Book : and I found ( as I tell you Art. 1. ch . 4. ) that they are exactly the same , with those that have been delivered from the Divine Majesty for the Lawes of his Heavenly Kingdom , by our Lord Iesus Christ , and his Holy Prophets and Apostles . Tim. I 'le tell you , Philautus , how that might be easily done : You went to the Bible , suppose , and thence pick'd out a company of very good Lawes , and then having ordered and wrested them to your own design ; then you go again to the Bible , and finding that they were not flown away , you cry , see here ● what ignorant people are they that shall goe about to find fault with my principles ; when as Christ and I hold forth the same Doctrine ; as is plain by a whole Chapter full of Scripture which I produce ? Phi. Doe not I recommend the same justice , mercy , equity , &c. that are recommended in the Bible ? Tim. Yes : But you don't recommend them every day in the week : for perhaps at present there may be no inconvenience in being just and righteous : but to morrow it may be against my interest : and the Castle-principle must never be forsaken . This is so very plain , as it need not be insisted on , and besides , it begins to be time , Philautus , to think of some protection for that inward member of the body , called the stomach . Phi. In that , Tim , I agree with thee , but in nothing else . And I am e'en sorry that I have stayed thus long : for thou hast been so perverse , that I am afraid I have done thee but little good . And so farewell . FINIS . Books Printed for , and Sold by Nathaniel Brook , at the Angel in Cornhill near the Royal Exchange . Folio . THe admired Piece of Physiognomy , Chiromancy , Metoposcopy , the symmetrical Proportion and signal Moles of the Body explain'd , with the Interpretation of Dreams ; to which is added the Art of Memory ; Illustrated with Figures , both pleasant and profitable ; with very large Additions : By Richard Sanders . Price 12 s. 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A LETTER TO HIS Old dear Friend R. L. From T. B LONDON , Printed by E. Tyler and R. Holt , for Nathaniel Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1672. A LETTER , &c. SIR , YOU had received this , and what follows , long before this time ; but I was loth to trouble the World on purpose , upon so small an occasion : And therefore I rather chose to wait the pleasure of a Friend , who had promised me the running of two or three Letters , in his Dialogue concerning Mr. Hobbs . The first whereof concerns one , who was pleased to send only a short friendly admonition with his name to 't ; who being a Person of great worth , piety and gravity , I am very sorry that he should be so imposed upon by the heats and raylings of others , as to give under his hand no better Grounds and Arguments for his Reproof . After him , Sir , comes a very smart hot-spur , who like a Whis●er at my Lord Mayor's Show , runs up and down with a spit-fire ; crying , make room there for Euclid : bear back , and take in ten Demonstrations against Learning and Riches : and ( which is much to be wondred at ) this Gentleman , Sir , with nothing but the poor helps of Wits Common-wealth , Godwyn's Antiquities , Clerk's Formulae , Spencer's Similitdes , or Things new and old , Theatrum vitae humanae , and two or three smaller Books besides , such as A help to discourse , the Pearls of Eloquence , Blunt's Academy of Eloquence , proves the strangest kind of things that ever you heard of in your whole life : and all ordered and managed according to Euclid . He and Antoninus together make nothing to prove , you , dear Sir , are no body at all : that you are a meer fiction , a cheat of Sir Politick would be , an Imposture of a sick brain , a dream , device , and car●wimple . He did but whistle , and call for his small Greek Diveling , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and if I had not made great haste , and pull'd you back by the Leg , you had been quite gone : And so he had like to have served the Academick Youngster that made the chief of his speech of Muses , Nosegays , and his own tenuity . He durst not absolutely say that his name was Nicholas Nemo ; but , which is very near unto 't , he thinks it much more probable that the Sea burns , than that there should ever be such stuff put together . Now , Sir , were it not for the Kings and Merchants Ships that are now abroad , I had a great mind to have fired the sea ; and told it him in Latin. However look to your selves Ships , for I profess I cannot forbear , but I must try to call to mind a little of it . Cum tenellam meam in dicendo peritiam , & coruscantem vestrorum oculorum fulgurationem mecum reputo , profectò Academici , instar Niobes , pallidus & tremebundus obstupesco : Et cum oratio mea nullis verborum stellis ornata , nullis phrasium sydcribus illuminata , nullis eloquentiae luminibus dictincta , denique cum ambrosia & nectaris succo penitus est vacua , ad stillicidia vestri favoris & benevolentiae , & ad Achilleam vestri patrocinii panopliam confugio : And so much concerning Nicholas Nemo . But these are but things by the by ; for this Authour's masterpiece is concerning Riches and Wisdom ; both which he has so horribly discouraged , by pressing the great duties and conveniencies of being ignorant and poor , from the History of the Iews , the Grecians , the Romans , both Pagan and Christian , and from our Saviour himself and his Disciples : that I am afraid that money it self , as well as Learning , will go a begging ; and that it will be a very hard matter ever to perswade either Clergy-men or others to undergo again the trouble and scandal of being wise or rich . It cannot but be expected that hereupon Lands must necessarily fall to eight years purchase , money to fifty shillings per cent . and as for History , Philosophy , Languages , and other parts of Learning , take one with another , and they may fetch perhaps six pence a bushel , heap'd as long as they 'l run ; and that 's all . And then for running a man up in a corner , he is the most severe and persecuting that you ever ●et withall . In one place of his Preface , he drives me up so very close , concerning my writing my Book , ●ither to inform my self , or others ; that I began to suspect , Sir , whether I ever writ any Letter to you or not : but looking upon 't again , I found at last that he only proved that I ought not to have written one . And this further I observe of him , that where ever he gets any advantage , he has no more mercy than a Tyger . He knows , as well as I do my right hand from my left , that I do not much care for a bit of Greek : and yet to vex and spight me , and to make me tired of the world , he 'l bring in at a venture , I know not how much , though it be nothing at all to the purpose . If you remember , Sir , we have such a saying in English , that a man that is brought to be very poor , is brought to great necessity ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being Greek for necessity , he thought it had been Greek for poverty too ; and so urging the great conveniencies of poverty , to choak me , he gives me that golden scrap of Pythagoras , ( as he calls it , ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hoping , poor Gentleman ! that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had signified vertue , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 poverty : and he might e'en as well have quoted that scrap of Camden , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there signifies power , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 necessity or fate : which is plain by their being so rendred , and by the foregoing Verse , in which Pythagoras advises a man not to quarrel or part with a friend for a small fault , but to forgive him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as far as he was able ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For he that forgives another to the ●●most of his power , will very near as certainly forgive him , as if it had been so decreed by the fates . I think somewhere in the New Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie necessities , or as we say streights : under which are comprehended not only money-streights , but all kind of inconveniencies , which are difficultly to be avoided : such as dishonour , false friends , sickness , or the like . But as for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifying poverty , I phansie it will be a very hard matter to find it , not only in Pythagoras , but any where else , except it be in such a Book as Lycosthenes . Now , Sir , after all this , it is all one to me what the true meaning of the word is : and I had not taken any notice of it , but only I know as I said before he quoted it out of malice , on purpose to make me fret , and hang my self . And so he does another piece of Greek , in what he says concerning Schools ; viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by which he intended doubly to kill me : First , because 't was Greek , and then because he tells me , plodding Aristotle said it ; and that it was as well said as if Cartes himself had said it : and think he , that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a thundering word , and will make the Rogue eat his very flesh for madness . And I 'le translate it thus ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , changing foundations is oftentimes of dangerous consequence : Being , Sir , ( as you must needs think ) deadly mad to hear a sentence out of Aristotle , so magnificently translated against me ; I was resolved , if possible , that the sentence should not be in Aristotle ; or if it were , it should require nothing near such a glorious and dreadful Translation . And I profess , to be short , Sir , I was made happy , and had my design : for ( as I believe ) that sentence is no where to be found in plodding Aristotle , but in plodding Themistius , a plodding Commentator upon plodding Aristotle : and besides , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 does not signifie a calf with five legs , a colt with three heads , or any such frightful and monstrous thing ; but very mildly , as one can desire . For Aristotle , in the fourth of his Physicks , de iis quae in tempore f●●●nt ; finding fault with those that thought that time it self did alter , and corrupt things , puts in these words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. that motion ( not time it self ) is that which alters things , or that puts things out of that state and condition in which they are ; upon which words Themistius thus comments : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; that is , if an old barn or an old tree tumble down ; it is not meer time that rots them , or tumbles them down ; but it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that does it , i. e. the wind , the weather , or somewhat else that makes holes in them , and puts them out of their place . Now , Sir , as I told you before , it is very indifferent to me what this and what t'other word signifie ; only I would have had him left out the abuse , and not have told me , that it was as well said as if Cartes had said it ; because it is just as well , and no better ; it being a fundamental principle of his Philosophy , that all alteration is caused by motion . And so let thus much at present serve for the second Answerer : after whom comes the Doomster , or Fire and Brimstone it self ; who pulling out of his Magazine , four or five Sermons concerning the existence of a God , the Authority of the Scriptures , Providence , &c. and raking together an hundred or two of names for me , and all the curses in the Bible ; he bundles up all this together , and in as dreadful black , as ever was branded upon wool-pack , he writes Hieragonisticon , or an Answer to my two Letters . I looked , Sir , upon some few Pages , and I find all this comfort for my self ; an Vniversal repaganizer , Popeling , a worshipper of the beast , Loyolite , Iesuited Pandor , Herod , Iudas , Pilate , Antiscripturist , Antichrist , Antiprovidentialist , Atheist ; to whom , Sir , I have said very little , but only told him that he was mad , and that I was not singular , for the rest of the world did think so . Perhaps , Sir , you may have a mind to know how it is possible that a Sermon for Providence should be against me , and how he should get it in , or any thing like it . If you remember , Sir , speaking somewhere in my first Letter concerning the great convenience of a tolerable maintenance , for the Ministry ; it is there said , that people should not be suffered to take away from God's Priests , what he had designed them , lest some thereupon should think that he seemed to take no care of them : Upon which , he springs forth . Say you so ! What are you there abouts ? Nay , even off with your Maskarado , and profess your self a right down Atheist , or Antiprovidentialist : which if you do , then ( by the grace of God ) I 'le pull out one of my best Sermons , concerning Providence , and so shamefully rout you , as never Heathen was r●uted : and so away he goes , proving Providence as hard as ever he can . I hear , Sir , of eight or ten Answerers more that may possibly come out this Spring , if it be seasonable and warm : but if they do , I shall make some interest to get my reply into Muddiman's Letter , or to stand at the bottom of the Gazette , amongst the strayed Horses and Apprentices . For you know , Sir , I have nothing more to say ; unless it may be here convenient , Sir , to beg so much room in your Letter , as to desire those ( if there be any such ) who are still offended , at what I said concerning Allegories ; to read one place of Scripture , as well as another : and when they have read , and well weighed , what is said by St. Luke c. 8. v. 9. That his Disciples did not understand the Parable of the Sower ; and not understanding , desired the meaning ; and ( as the Learned D r Hammond notes ) Christ answered , that he did it on purpose , as a punishment to those that had had clear means and perspicuous expressions and manifestations ; that seeing they might not see ; that is , clear means was n●w denied unto them , and none but parables was allowed , as ● punishment of their former obduraion against hi● means : As also , upon what occasion it was that our Sa●iour said , St. Matth. 13. 14. And seeing they shall see , and not perceive , i. e. ( as the same Doctor observes ) being an obstinate people they shall not receive so much profit as otherwise they ●ight : things shall be so aenigma●ically and darkly represented to them , 〈◊〉 that they ( having before shut their eyes ) shall now discern but little ; and what follows , v. 15. For this peoples ●●art is waxed gross , &c. i. e. ( speaking still of making use of Parables ) and this is a just judgment of God's upon them , for their former obduration and obstinacy ; in that they would not see nor hear heretofore : I say , when they have considered of these , and many such like places of Scripture ; and after all , they shall still think , that they have as much reason to punish their Anditors , as 〈◊〉 Saviour had some of his : Nay , to torture them with Allegories ten times more remote from common apprehension ; I have nothing to say to them , but only to leave them to their own way , and understanding . But it is time now , Sir , to take my leave of you , and ( setting aside all fashionable conclusions ) I desire that I may do it with what Bishop Saunderson says in his first Sermon ad Aulam ; which possibly may do some body or other more good , than any complement could ever have done you service . He speaking , Sir , of making use of Rhetorical Ornaments and Elegancies in popular Sermons , says thus ; That as such things are sometimes very allowable , useful and approved of by Scripture it self ; if it be discreetly and sparingly done , and counts those uncharitable , and unjust , that in general condemn all such Rhetorical Ornaments as savouring of an unsanctified spirit : So ( says he ) I confess there may be a fault this way , and ( in young men especially before their judgements are grown to a just ripeness ) many times there is . For ( as he continues ) affectation in this as in every thing else is both tedious and ridiculous ; and in this by so much more than in other things , by how much more the condition of the person , and the nature of the business require a sober , serious , grave deportment . Those Preachers therefore by a little vanity in this kind , take the readiest way to bring both their own discretions into question , and the sacred word they handle into contempt , that play with words as children do with a feather . I have been mistaken by some , but however I hope you will always think that I am , Sir , Your most humble Servant , T. B. A LETTER To B. O. The Publisher of M r HERBERTS Country Parson . From T. B. LONDON , ●●inted by E. Tyler and R. Holt , for Nathaniel Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1672. A LETTER , &c. Honour'd Sir , I Received your fifth Paragraph ( as you call it ) long since , wherein you tell me , that I am the Author of a scandalous Book : and if I had the very next day sent you word back again , that I am not the Author of any such Book ; I had given you just as full an answer , as you have given reasons that I am so . For that great service , Sir , that you have done the Church , and are able still to doe it , I have a very great respect for you : but I doe much wonder , that you would not a little defer calling any Book scandalous , till you had thought of some better ways to make it appear so : or have told me what you meant by scandalous . For you know , Sir , the word has been taken in so many sences that there has been a time when Almond butter has been counted rebellion , minced Pye Idolatry , and if a little Wine were put thereunto , it was as ill as worshipping the host : and to eat Custards with spoons was abominably scand●lous , but to be engag'd in Sack-posse●t up to the eyes , with Ladles , was Christian , Orthodox , and Brotherly . Therefore when you say that that Book is scandalous , if you mean that it puts men in mind of their follies , that it abates the glory of : some mens preaching , that some people now are longer making their Sermons , if you mean that some dislike it , wish that it never had been Printed , are very angry , may are staring raving mad ; I know then that it is so very scandalous , that there be those that are lovers of themselves and only of their own way , that at a venture they wish the Author hang'd , a thousand and a thousand times over . But if you meant any thing more by scandalous , I wish you had made it out . For I would not have you think , Sir , that you have done enough towards it , only by saying ( as you doe ) that I am puffed up , that if I had known the man that preached upon Weep not , &c. I ought to have cryed : That my Book has given offence to diverse eminent grave and Learned men ; and is lothsome to all good men . That Henry the eight had like to have been in Orders , &c. and that you know of two or three Noble mens sons that in former times were in Orders , and of six or seven that at this present are : and that an holy man in a poor Living is in the kingdome of Heaven , if there be one upon Earth : which ( you say ) you believe , because you durst undertake to hold this Thesis against ●ny Iesuit , viz. Status inopis parochi in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ , est perfector statu cujuslibet M●nachi in Ecclesiâ Romanâ . But I suppose , Sir , when you design'd me a Paragraph , and to call my Book scandalous ; you intended some better reasons , if you had not forgot them . But I pray , Sir , how come you to think that I was puffed up ? I profess , Sir , I do'nt find my constitution to be a whit more scandalous than formerly : My pulse beates neither faster nor loftier : the same girdle-still takes me in . I neither sleep deeper , nor eat more . I have not I confess lately examin'd my foretop ; that possibly may be a little started forth ; but otherwise I know of no alteration in my self . Again , Sir , you 'd have me to have cryed and pitied him that preached upon Weep not &c. rather than have &c. I pray , Sir , to what purpose ? that man is quiet in his grave , and I did it not because he or his Executors had ever affronted , or offended me ▪ but because I knew of no better instance to represent the vanity of such kind of idle shreddings : and to put an end to the extravagancy of them . I intended to vex no man now alive in the whole world , not to please and delight my self in triumphing over the imprudences of the dead : but yet , for all that , some people are resolved to think , that I am a Devil I know not how big . However , my Conscience tells me , what was my design : and I bless God Almighty that he put it into my mind , and that I was enabled to finish it . Neither would I have you , Sir , so over-confident that that same Book you call scandalous , is so very offensive and lothsome to all good m●n . For I am sure you have not lately spoke with all the good men in the Nation : For I know severall that are not of your opinion , and that are very good men too : and for ought I know , as good as yours : they being as eminent for learning , for piety and for suffering too : and then I am sure , you 'l acknowledg them to be without all doubt good : I say , I know several , and such who were born much above fourty years since , ( for if they had not , with some they would not be worth sixpence a hundred ) that at the first reading thought the design to be honest , and the Book still to be usefull : and if I be puffed up with any thing ( as you think I am , Sir , ) it is not I 'le assure you with any jest , story or gloss , that you there find ; but to hear of some that are throughly convinced that it is not the best way to spend two dayes of three either in dressing up plain sence and meaning with obscure Rhimes and Iingles , or with other sorts of elaborate , useless fineries . I suppose , Sir , I am to look upon my self concerned in all your fifth Paragraph : But when you tell 〈◊〉 of some persons of 〈◊〉 that have been herefore , and of others that are now in holy Orders ; th●ow not how it should come into your mind , to think any thing of that against me ; whose great design it was that there might be ten times as many ; and though you are pleased to say , that an holy man in a poor Living is in a kingdom ; yet I hope , Sir , that your ●●entions of augmenting your own Living , for the advantage of your successors , will not remove you ever a whit the further , from that Kingdom you there mean. If you desire , Sir , any further satisfaction , I must refer you to my second Letter : which I think is plain , even to those very men , that would not understand my first ; notwithstanding those two objectors that now follow . I have nothing more , Sir , but to let you know that notwithstanding all this , I have a great esteem for you : not only because you dealt friendlily with me , but because you ought to be esteem'd by all , as you are by . Your humble Servant T. B. A LETTER TO THE AUTHOR OF THE Vindication of the CLERGY : From T. B — Silvestrem tenui . LONDON , Printed by E. Tyler and R. Holt , for Nathaniel Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1672 ▪ A LETTER , &c. SIR , ALthough for your own convenience and service , you have appointed me to be young Shimei , Fanatical skip-jack , Secretary to a Committee of plundered Ministers , and Secretary besides to another company that believe no life after this ( which is very nigh , as bad as the former ) yet , for my part , I am fully resolved to apply my selfe to you , only by the way of dear Sir , sweet Sir , and sometimes plainly , Sir. For if I should goe and call you Giles of of Tilbury , Philip of Southampton , Gabriel of Doncaster , or the like ; your name perhaps all this while may be Zoroaster , Zerubbabell , Boreas or Boanerges . But let it be what it will , and live where you can , on this side or beyond Trent : nay , live as far as Barwick upon Twede , Sir still holds good , and will find you out there . And now , Sir , in the first place ; I must return you many thanks , for your extraordinary kindness towards me , in respect of what I found from your Brother Answerer , W. S. For though you tell me ( p. 26. ) that he was too civill to his old acquaintance , and too free and prodigall in his concessions : and though by your fiery and fierce Latin , ( facit indignatio ) you put me into a most dismall fright , and had like to have made me miscarry : Yet I plainly perceive , where there is any thing of sound and substantial tenderness at the bottom , nature cannot dissemble long , but must needs discover some of its sweetnesses . For whereas severe W. S. confin'd me wholly to cracking of Nutts ; you 〈◊〉 pleased , Sir , to give me my choice of happiness and imployments . For when I am altogether tired and scorch'd with chasing Butterflies , then have I your most gracious leave to retire either to my pilling of strawes , or to coole myself , and my chicken broth , or to call in at the Market Cross , and rest my self in the Pillory ; a very laudable place , and allowed of by Authority . And therefore , I say , I must upon all occasions , acknowledge my self to be yours , for these and many the like affectionate expressions , in your Vindication : which , when I well consider , are so very sweet and engaging , that I must need hold my self obliged , for your sake , at any time , either to skip off a Steeple , or to make an end of that odd jobb of work which Nicanor Seleucus left unfinished between the Euxin● and Caspian seas ( if you be very sure , that it was ever begun , for I have a scurvy fellow that doubts of it : ) nay , when my hand is in , I care not a farthing , if I carry on that other massy business in Achaia ; for what 's massiness to me , when there 's a friend in the case . In short , Sir , you cannot easily devise a task , to which I shall be unwilling , unless it be to answer your Book . And , as to that , I must by all meanes beg your pardon ; being not at all in the humour , to reply to that which was fully answered , long before it was printed ; viz. in my second Letter called Observations : upon which you have some short reflections , in a Postscript : and if you had reflected but a little more , I am confident you might have easily perswaded your self to have burnt your Copy . For in all your Vindication , if any man , that does but understand sence from words , can shew me but six lines that pretends to Argument , or Objection , that was not half a year before urged by W. S. and to which some reply was not thereupon made ; then will I oblige my self to get all your Book by heart ( which I would not doe for a small matter ) or be at the charge , to procure some body to turn it into most stately Heroick Verse . Now , I do suppose , it may be convenient for you to call this ( as you doe all that I say ) a flam , a whisker , a Caprice , a piece of spight ▪ ●alice , calumny and spleen . But I care not for that : for if the same whole world ( to which you so often appeal ) be not of my opinion , I 'le give you all my interest in it , for those same three poor pennies , which , you know , is the full price of my planet . If you please , Sir , we 'l try two or three places . My friend W. S. comes ●orth , and desires to dissent from me , as to the business of schooling . For says h ▪ ( p. 37. ) Though the understanding that is in man does indeed early discover it self , yet memory is the great storehouse of understanding ▪ and if the memory be sufficiently imployed at schoole , it will lay a good foundation for the perfecting the understanding afterwards . This was W. S. his opinion , and objection : to whom I reply'd , your Humble servant W. S. and some little more besides according as I was able . I know not how long after , out comes the Vindicationer , and spruces up this objection , with some fine bedeckings , and embellishments , and a needless quotation out of Plato , and brushes forth , as if he had discovered a third Indies ; saying , Every body knows but the contemner of the Clergy , that Children have a moist and supple brain , like soft wax capable of any impressions , and that memory is the most early faculty of the soul , which exerts it self in the very dawning of sense , and cogitation , ( whereupon Plato calls it the mother of the Muses ) and is in its prime and meridian vigour , before Imagination or Phancy , ●uch less understanding and judgment come perfectly to them . Now , Sir , doe you think that I am such a fool and owle , as to reply to any such thing as this ? You tell me that a childs brain is like soft wax : and I tell you , that if you had put to your soft wax , plaister of Paris , Puff'd past , Curds and Apple-sauce , I would not have answered you one word . And what do I care if Plato calls memory the Mother of the Maids ? I have nothing to say against Plato : but I have only this to say , that if that be the opinion not only of Plato , but of the Brachmans and Gymnosophists of India , the Bards and Druids of Gaul , the Magi of Persia , the Chaldaeans of Babylonia and Assiria , the Priests of Aegypt , and of every one of the Philos●phers of Greece ; I am so very busy and surly at present , that I will not speak to any such thing . Indeed , as to what I said , of mixing at School some other pleasant learning with Greek and Latin ; you differ a little in your accompts . For all that W. S. objected was , that it is more proper to learn those things which I mentioned afterwards . But that you may be sure to out-goe him , and not to grant so much as he , you are of opinion , that to goe about to teach a lad of twelve years of age a little Arithmetick , or the circles of the Globe or the like , it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 't is every whit as impossible as it was for Nero to cut a channel from the lake Avernus to the mouth of Tiber , and to pierce the massy Isthmus in Achaia : or as it was f●r Nicanor Seleucus to cut the streight between the Euxine and Caspian seas ; or for Cleopatra that , which divided the red Sea from Aegypt ; nay , 't is not only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : such a monster , as that tee●ing Africk never brought forth the fellow of it ; and every whi● as ridiculous , as if you put Her●ules's shoes upon a dwarf , or as if Lambs could wide , where Elephants are forced to swim , or as if every little Philistim , could play at quarterst●ff with Goliah's beam . Now , W. S. did not think it thus vengeanably impossible ; but only that it was not the most proper time . In like manner , there is some little difference between you , about your believing that there might be a reason , why Lawyers and Physicians prove better than Divines , having the same education . As for modest W. S. he only wonders a little at it , and says it is very strange if it should be so : but he does not defy all reason , that might be given : not knowing but that there might be one in Banko . But when you come to consider of it , half a year after the reason was repeated out of my first letter , you fall on to purpose , and challenge all the Logicks in Europe to make it out . I wish with all my heart , Sir , you had not challenged them every one . For I 'le warrant you besides Burgers-dicius , Heereboord , Craccanthorp , and Keckerman there be vourty at least . The King of Spain ( to my knowledge ) has abundance of Logicks , and I 'le assure you the French King wants neither men , nor Logicks . Indeed I must wish again , that you had thought of it a little better : for this same Europe , Sir , that you so daringly challenge , is a very large place , and will hold many Bushels of Logick . For as I find in a learned Author ; Europe reaches Eastward as far as the Aegaean Sea , Hellespont , Propontis ; nay , as far as your very ●ontus Euxinus , and beyond ; and then Southward , Northward and Westward , I know not how far . I must confess , that there be two or three things against my Letter , that are near upon as massy as the very Isthhmus it self ; that wound me for ever , and make me groan again ; which were not at all taken notice of by W. S. but whether he overlooked them out of friendship , or tenderness of nature , or weakness of eyes or understanding , I am not able to say ; but sure I am he saies not one word of them : The first that I took notice of is pag. 38. where you are very severe upon me for maintaining that a break-fast is like a fast ; and that any Text in the Bible is more like an ingenious Picture , than a Break-fast is like a fast ; and you desire the World to judge , if it be not a very odd similitude . Now because this is an absolute new objection , wherein my reputation is much concern'd , and a matter of so great moment , that it is quoted again , as an everlasting abuse to me , therefore I must answer as warily and distinctly as the case will admit of : which I shall do in these three following Propositions . First , I confess , grant , and acknowledge , that a break-fast strictly and severely taken , is not at all like a fast : In the second place , I do lay down and hold ( and resolve to do it to my dying day ) that a Break-fast may be as dreadful as a fast ; provided it be an old Parliament one ; for that alters the case very much : for the clearing of this , turn to plodding Aristotle , de oppositis . In the last place I do most stiffly maintain , that I never said that a Break-fast is as dreadful as an old Parliament fast : but I 'le tell you what I said , that the repetition day for the grammar is usually as dreadful as an old Parliament fast : and fourteen lines after , I said , ( and will say it again for all you ) that to be bound to get two or three hundred Verses out of Homer for break-fast , is no very pleasant task . Now I profess it was a spiteful , fanatical , skip-jack trick of mine , that I did not right down say , that a break fast is like a fast ; ( the two words are but fourteen lines distant one from the other ; ) for then you might have enlarged the Title of the accusation , that was to be written under me — The Authour of the Contempt of the Clergy , &c. and that s●ies that a fast is like a break-fast . Another thing that was wholly forgotten by W. S. is that he takes no notice at all , how greatly convenient it might be , if there were pretty store of such as were poor and ignorant , mixed with the rest of the Clergy : for as you very well observe pag. 21. this makes up the harmony of things : for , say you , were there not an Ignoramus or two amongst the Lawyers , some Quacks and Empiricks amongst Physicians , some Idiots in the Schools of Philosophers , some dun●es in the member of perended schollars , and some poor Gentry amongst the rich ; there 〈◊〉 be no 〈◊〉 of things ; not any at all , most certainly : but all the clergy would be as dull as a bamdoor . There is also one thing more that you urge against me , p. 93. that must go wholly for your own ; and it is this ; Supposing a Vicar has but a groat in the house , it is a most unimaginable thing , that he should break such an entire 〈◊〉 , and spend his penny . Now I durst not for my ears , go about to make any reply to this : because you say it is a calumny that has so little of probability in it , that the Divel himself cannot believe it : and I have no mind at all to dispute with him : and therefore this must be registred and allowed of as an unanswerable objection against me ; and wholly of your own invention . I 'le take care it shall be fil'd amongst the Gazetts and Philosophical News-books . But indeed as to the advantage and convenience of using of Latin in Sermons , where no body understands it ; I must needs do W. S. so much right , as to confess , it was not altogether forgotten by him ; but withall it must never be denied but that the four Reasons that you have added , have so very much strengthened and advanced that business , that W. S. cannot come in for above a fifth part of the glory . For , first of all say you , It may be convenient for the Minister , to quote out of the learned , Greek or Latin , though no body understands it , to distinguish himself from such who preach altogether in English at Conventicles . Admirably well contrived ! for if they were distinguished by nothing else , but by observing the Canons and the Act of Vniformity , it would be very hard to know one from t'other . Secondly , becaus● Authority is a more effectual Argument ad hominem , than a Demonstration . That must needs be , because it is supposed that these same homines do not understand a word of it ; and so it must work most wonderfully and effectually . Thirdly , it is very convenient ; for , though the people do not understand a tittle of it , yet so long as they understand more than they can commonly remember , it is well enough . O 't is extraordinary well ! And lastly , because a man may so preach in English , that all people shall not understand him ; ( that is , if he gives his mind to it , and makes it his business : ) for there be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in a Chapter of St. Paul read in English. Is it not great pity , that you were not matched to that same ●see●ing Afri●● you speak of ? what a breed of Reasoners would the World have had ? Now , would it not make any one in the World raving mad , to hea● such stuff as yours boasted of for sence ? but for all that , I shall take up my self according to the Philosophers Rule , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not be so angry , as to answer your Book . Nay , more than that , I intend to be reconciled to you , to love you , and entertain some hopes of you , upon condition you 'l promise me three or four things , which I must heartily request of you : and if all the World do not say that they are very seasonable and proper for your Constitution , I 'le undertake never to beg any thing again . In the first place therefore I do most earnestly request of you , that you do not for the future print any quibbles . Be as merry as you please , and as witty as you can afford ; but for one so extraordinary full of demonstration , and so very well acquainted with Euclid , even fr●m a shoulder of mutton to a dish of wild fowl , for such an one to play and trifle with words will certainly in time very much abate your reputation , and more than that weaken your rational parts . What an easie matter had it been for you , when you were speaking of English Disputations and Declamations being used in St Pauls ; to have said , that it was allowed of by the Usurper , or by Oliver the Tyrant ? but you must go and say it was connived at by one Tyrannus , but you did not mean him in the Acts. It was great pity indeed that you did not mean him , because he was dead five or six hundred years before St. Pauls was built . In like manner , when you tell us , pag. 75. that it is not at all likely that star-board and lar-board , &c. should ever come into a Sermon , since Pulpits made of Ships beaks have been out of fashion : You had better have given any other reason of its being unlikely , than that : for though by chance I take the Jest of it , because I have read Godwin's Antiquities : yet how shall those poor Readers make shift to admire you , that do not understand the full signification of Rostrum , and the History of Roman Pulpits . I desire also that you would consider that there be some phansies which at their first foundation were very good and laudable ; but when they have been torn , and tossed up and down , by every body , for an hundred years together , they then become tiresome , and degenerate into all the iniquity and nauseousness of a quibble . For example ; suppose you have a mind to abuse a man to death , and to tell him that he talks like an Apothecary : do so ; spare him not at all , but down with him , and make the Rogue sufficiently ashamed of his folly , and Apothecaryship : but ( if you love the prosperity of your Family ) I desire by all means , that you do not train it in with a Story of Doctor three or four lines before ; telling him that for such a thing to be so or so is indeed the opinion of one Doctor ; but what if be should talk all the while like an Apothecary . So to tell a man that he is an Hogshead , is searching questionless , and goes very deep ; but if you put empty before it , and tell him that he is an empty Hogshead , then I count there 's little hopes of life : but if he chance to find the word Tun within five or six lines of this abuse , he presently takes heart thereupon , begins to crawl again , and does not care at all for dying . We must alwaies grant , Sir , that it was very well done of him , who first observed that where God had his Church , the Divel had his Chappel● and it was pretty well done of him , that observed the same in the second place ; but to go on , and observe it over , and over , and over again , without all doubt , does take very much away from the primitive glory of your observation . And thus Nicholas Nemo , diebus illis his dayes , to be born under a threepenny Planet , to ●●nder quantum dabis into pure cur●ant English money , to correct the defect of nature's pencil , and many such like ( which you abound with ) were questionless at first very ingenious and without all exception ; but the jestingness of them , by too much using is so utterly worn out , that they will work no more than the powder of an old post . But amongst all quibbles , as you desire to flourish and be for ever famous , be very sparing of such that depend wholly upon the Title and outside of Books , viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Hobbs his Creed , the Gentleman's calling , Ignoranius , and such like ; for they lying very obvious to every ordinary phansie , you may chance to make a jest , that has been made an hundred times before . You 'l find this , I promise you , to be very good advice , if you consider well of it . Now I am , I must confess , perfectly of your mind , as to what you say , pag. 59. concerning the great advantages and excellent use of quibbles , if handsomly managed , by reason that they are a great promoter of health in general , and an easie amulet against some distempers that hang about sedentary men in particular ; that they unbend the mind , loosen the distended nerves of the soul , and revive its drooping spirits after a wonderful manner : which agrees very well , with what the worthy Authour Witts Common-wealth says in the first part , pag. 215. concerning Musick , viz. it is the bodies best recreation , it overcometh the heart , and comforts the mind , it is the Queen and Mistress of the soul , it is the loadstone of fellowship , the chearful reviver of dulled spirits , the sole delight of da●cing , and sweet-meat of sorrow — But let me tell you , that neither your self , nor that learned Authour , have spoken half home to the business . Alas ! dear Sir , you speak but timorously and modestly ; this is nothing to what I can tell you . What think you of him that without any Vulgar Instruments used for that purpose ; only by the help of a good lusty Ioque , and a Iews-tr●mp couched a cataract of seven years standing : and of another who quibbled a Wen of the forehead , as big as a Gooses egg . Great cures upon my word ! and the greater , because these sorts of Medicines work chiefly upon the lower parts . You would wonder , Sir , to see what a vast quantity of gravel hath come away upon two or three jests . It is reported of one Harmonides ( not your Harmonides the Fidler , but another that I have ) who having bin tortured several days with the Stone , and trying several Medicines to no purpose , was advised at last to send for some ingenious Iester . no sooner was the ingenious come into the house , but presently the pain much abated , ( for a jest you must know , if it be strong , works at a distance as well as the Sympathetick powder , ) and being carried up into his Bed-chamber , he let go a phansi● of a good moderate size , ( but whether it was quibble or joque , my Authour does not say , ) upon which the stone presently turned ; and adding to that , one a little stronger , it was soon after voided . Neither is this at all unlikely , when we call to mind how plentifully a great Person of our own Nation bepissed his breeches , after a long stoppage of Vrine , meerly by one jest of the Doctors ; when all his drugs would not draw one drop . But were there nothing in all this that tended to the commendation of a jest , yet certainly they ( from what you say ) are very allowable , sacred and Orthodox ; because ( you know ) St. John went a Partridge catching when he writ his mysterious Revelations ; and what is more like a Partridge than a quibble in Feathers ? Now , I would not have you think me so spiteful and malicious , as to say , that there is nothing of real wit in your Vindication : for let people say what they will , and carp , and catch , and except , and caprice , yet they are forced to acknowledge in spight of malice and calumny , that there are in the whole Vindication , four or five as good , clear , and well dressed humours , as ever were made : and lest you should think I flatter , I'●e tell you the very places ; that you may know what is approved of , how to value your self , and to do well again when occasion requires . The first happy thing that is approved of by all , is your putting in that scrap ( as you call it ) of the Poet — Quid enim tentar nocebit ? And then your saying immediately after , that you did it on purpose , because you knew it would trouble me vilely ; and I 'le assure you it was well ghessed ; for I hate such a scrap of Latin , as I do a Viper or Toad : and though I made shift to take a slumber of seven or eight hours that night ; yet I found that your Poet rejounced next morning most horribly : and I 'le assure you , it cost me a glass of aqua mi●abi●is to compound with him , to be quiet . The next humour that they all grant for good and very allowable , is your telling me that you had got ground of me , more than I did allow the Vicar for hi● Glebe . It was well observed ; for I do confess I do allow him but a little . The next is ( that is allowed ) your calling Cicero's son Mark a codshead : they acknowledge it to be well said , and true ; for the Rogue proved not otherwise . A fourth is your forgetting the Roman Lady's Bitch's name that Thesmopolis had the tuition of : these are all that I can get to be generally allowed . I have put in hard , I 'le assure you , in all companies , for two or three more : as for example ; the Papist and the Puritan being tyed together like Sampson's Foxes : I liked it well enough , and have beseeched them to let it pass for a phansie : but I could never get the Rogues in a good humour to do it . For , they say , that Sampson's Foxes have been so very long , and so very often tied together , that it is high time now to part them . It may be , because something very like it is to be found in a printed Sermon , which was preached thirty eight years ago ; it is no flam , nor whisker : it is the 43. Page upon the right hand . Yours go thus : viz. Papist and Puritan like Sampson ' s Foxes , though looking and running two several wayes , yet are ever joyned together in the tayl : My Authour has it thus ; viz. the Separatists and the Romanists ( there 's for your Puritans and Papists ) consequently to their otherwise most distant principles do fully agree like Sampson ' s Foxes , tyed together by the tayls to set all on fire , although their faces look quite contrary ways . I phansied a good while those two Stories you tell , pag. 41. how that S●crates ( though his Mother was a Midwife ) could not make his Scollars bring forth any Science , unless they had understanding to conceive it : and that it was ill done of Cicero that he did not examine the boy Mark ' s parts before he went to Athens . But I profess , ( I know not how ) it came at last into my mind , that I had learnt this at School ; and looking into my Clerk's formulae ( out of which I used to steal my Themes ) upon that close and elegant discourse , E● quovis ligno non fit Mercurius ; there I found them both in the very beginning of the Speech , viz. Socrates , &c. But this I must confess was Mr. Clerk's rudeness : for if he had taken care ( as he ought to have done ) to have placed those two historical observations , a little deeper into that great Controversie , you might then have been supposed to have fetched them from some other Authour , that was nearer to the Original . I have heard very often mention made of your calling a dish of wild fowl a Pyramid : but whether they approve of it or laugh at it , I cannot yet certainly tell : ( when I certainly know you shall have an accompt . ) But I must seriously tell you that as to the beards being made of certain she Asses manes , I have very little hopes of putting that off ; ( and I am somewhat afraid that the shoulder of Mutton or Triangle , will lie upon my hand ; ) but you may be sure I 'le do my best endeavour . Perhaps you may think it convenient to write some small thing , and explain it : but if it never goes off for a phansie , seeing there be three or four that Hell it self can't except against , especially that of the chasing-dish being an Hypothesis which I had like to have forgot ; the truth of it is , it was a very pretty thought , and I am confident will alwaies be so accompted . Now , I must confess to you , that this same phrase of pretty thought , is none of my own ; but ( as I remember ) 't is in some late Play : which I thought fit to tell you , that you may be sure of what you ghess , that I do sometimes borrow , and ( as I am your friend ) I advise you to learn to do so too . For rather than I would stuff out a Book with Lot and Lottery , Churches and Chappels , Iachin and Boaz , with my old friend Nicholas Nemo , with Pun's quibbles and small jests a thousand times said before , and with all the featnesses that three Languages can afford towards a poor phansie , I would advise you to take that course which you think I do , and write farees , far●les , frequent company and steal from clubs , ransack all Romances and Plays , written before or since the King came in . I would not stick at that ; I would be for heyte teyte , a cock or a 〈◊〉 , an horse-shoe or a mares nest : I would make friends and get to be Secretary to some learned Commit●ee , ( Boccaline perhaps may sell you his place , for two hundred Guine●● ; for he hath got stock enough to set up for himself ) and then get by heart their dogmes , resolves and decrees ; ●ay , rather than fail , I would get another to write the Preface , or do any such thing : For , upon my word , if you go on thus , you 'l be in as great danger of breaking the neck of your parts , as you think the poor Lads to be at School by venturing upon any solid learning . And as I would request you , for the future , that you would be very careful of breaking the neck of your phansie : so take some care , I beseech you , of necking your judgment ; but above all things be very wary of calling that Euclid that does not conclude at all . If you had only said that you would endeavour to make such a thing out , or that you did not much question but that you should do it , and that very plain too ; people would not then have called for their Rule and Compasses : but to say , that you would make it out as clear as any Demonstration in Euclid , and moreover to write , quod erat demonstrandum after such loose and wide reasonings , that would scarce hold a Pike of half a yard long ( a Metaphor taken from a net , which I have seen as well as a Ship ) was very rashly done . You had much better have sworn it off , as the Poet did his Play : although you had never so little reason for it . What then belike ( say you ) Ignorance and Poverty must be grounds and occasions of Contempt in the Clergy . I marry , that 's a likely business indeed ! that was well devised by a Skip-jack phansie ! a most excellent Jachin and Boaz ! a pair of special good pillars or poles for an aiery castle ! but if I do not rattle down poles and pillars , if I do not wholly subvert and unhinge this confident swaggerer , and venter of Paradoxes , if I do not unjachin , and unboaz him , before I have done , I 'le e'en renounce Euclid and all pretences to him . Come , Mr. Confident , you go and impudently say , that Ignorance and Poverty are causes of contempt . I pray , by your leave , Sir , how then comes it about that Poverty was alwaies counted a sacred thing , and Ignorance the Mother of devotion and admiration ? Surely you will not venture to say that Godliness and devotion are contemptible things : there 's one nut for you to crack . I think there 's one brush for your poles : and it is very strange if your castle does not tumble by and by . Now , Sir , for a little of your skill in Astronomy , to tight and straighten your poles . Your bold Hypothesis begins to groan already , and sink it must , unless you can rec●●cile admiration and contempt . I 'le teach you to talk at random about things you do not at all understand . I 'le teach you the meaning of Sumite materiam vestram qui scribitis aequam Viribus — I know you don't love it , but I 'le make you eat Latin and Greek too , before I have done with you . Do you see Mr. Clergy-mender , how I have trip'd up both your poles at one stroak : but lest you should say that this was a surprize , or think , that I am stinted for demonstrations ; I 'le give you your Jachin and Boaz again : but then look to your self ; for now I 'le take them both away one by one , so fairly , so evidently , and scientifically , that pull and hold what you can , you shall plainly perceive your self a very sot , and fool : I say look closely to it ; for I intend to make an home thrust . My demonstration shall go in just at your navel , and so let out the very guts of all your discourse . Ignorance , say you , at random , is a cause of contempt ; boldly said for a skip-jack indeed ! but I pray Mr. Apothecary answer me this then . Is not Magistracy as well 〈◊〉 Ministery an Ordinance of God ? How comes it then about that a Thatcher , suppose he be but Mayor of a Town , although he can neither write nor read , shall be as much wondered at , and admired , be called as often Worshipful , be stood bare to as much , have the Mace carried as dreadfully before him , as if he had learning enough to be Lord Chief Justice : and how comes it to pass that hereditary Kings have been honoured and obeyed , that have had so little parts as to be forced to dispatch all things by their Council ; and if these , though never so ignorant , are to be honoured ; are not we bound to seek out , and elect such ; suppose we can tell where to find them . Now you had best cry for one of your causes of Contempt , do so , cry on , I do'nt pity you at all and if I thought it would vex you as much ( as quid tentare nocebit ? ) I would make you hang your self . I could carry you into the bowels and secrets of former Ages , and give you an historical demonstration . What think you of the Roman Curiones , Augures , Auspices , Flamines , Extispices , Pontifices , Salii , Aruspices , Cultuarii , Victimarii , Capnomantes , Diales , and ●antharides ; who have no reason to be believed to be any great Conjurers ; and yet it is granted by all , that the Divel and they together , kept the people in sufficient aw : but you must be for your Astronomy forsooth , and your Atoms : you must be for your new projects and models , and for your heyte teyt's ; and in the mean time , neglect all solid Learning , and Godwyn's Antiquities . But say when you have enough , and are sufficiently ashamed ; for I have a whole cloak-bag full of pure Mathematical stuff still . What think you of your present Popish Priests , that can scarce tell how to read the Service , and yet with a little of Joseph's Humm , and the Virgin M●rys Milk , are very well respected and admired ? Do you think they would do half so much good , and ●e half so much respected , if they were considerable S●hollars ? I pray answer me to that . Mr. Castle-keeper . But why should I goe about t● pour forth such Historicall rarities into an empty hogs-head ? for although he should want parts 〈◊〉 perceive the violence , and breaking in of a demonstration , yet his Mistris Experience may teach him so much ; how Idle a thing it is to p●ate of Ignorance being a cause of Contempt , or of wishing any Clergy-man should be more learned ; whereas it is plain that the ●nlearned Weavers and Taylours in the late times , could swing the people more after them , than we can doe now with all our Learning . Populus aliquando vult decipi ; ●t si aliquando cur non nunc ? And therefore from all this you had much reason to wonder how egregiously mistaken the little Historian was● For alas ! Ignorance is so far from exposing a publick person to contempt , that ( give him but power and Authority with it ) his only way and meanes to arrive to a great estee● amongst the generality of men is to renoun●● all learning , and get 〈◊〉 much Ignorance as possible : for the ●ore ignorant , the more valued . And why ? it seems strange at first : but when we hear the reason it is plain : because the generality of mankind are unlearned themselves . And thus , Sir , having demonstrated not only that Ignorance is ●ull out as serviceable as learning ( for to have done that would not have argued any superfluity of parts , ) but that of the two , it is much to be preferr'd : in the next place you shew that poverty carries it at least a length and half befor● convenient maintenance . And why ? because no wise man esteems things by their gaudy outsides , the Horse by his trappings , the Ass by his burden . Because the learned Heathens never deifyed money , and Pythagora● recommended golden precepts , no● gold . Because Lu●ian lashes the blind God of wealth , as if he wer●● blind Bear. Because the Peripatetical summum bonum , when they 〈◊〉 put mony to 't , was but a Golde● Calf . Because Craesus and Midas were but singling Pack-horses . But this is Heathenish proof , now for Divinity . For , Was not Christ himself in a low condition ? Was not his Iury of life and death most of them poor ? and did not the foreman of the Iury St. Peter say , silver and gold have I none ? Now from such premises as these would not every novice ( say you ) in Logick conclude that it were ●etter for a Clergyman to have but twenty pounds a year and half a dozen books , than an hundred and a good Library ? no ; I am confident he would not , if he had read but two Chapters in Logick : nay , if his Tutor had only promised the poor creature a little of that same , and he should conclude so , I would have him presently sent home , and never be suffered to conclude again . Now , Sir , doe you think that I will spend any time in exposing such nonsense as this , which 〈◊〉 so very plain and palpable that all the malice in the world cannot misrepresent or make it worse ? not I , I 'le assure you . You talk somewhere of bestowing your Mother ▪ upon me : alas ! you do'nt offer like a Chapman . For if you should fling in your Grandmother , Aunts and all your Sisters into the bargain , I will not put my self to so much trouble . But yet I cannot forbear just to shew what a great demonstrator you are of your second proposition , as you were of your first : which you set upon p. 19. but it pierces not deep till p. 24. And if any one desires to see Euclid in a nutshell , there he may find him . The case is this ( or as you are pleased to read it the ball of contention ) Whether there may not be here and there a Clergy-man so ignorant , as that it might be wished , that he were wiser . For my part I went and ghess'd at random , and thought there might be one or so : but my Adversary holds and maintains , not only that there is not so much as one now in the whole Nation : but shews it to be impossible that there ever was one , or ever shall be one . And for doing all this he only layes down one very small request , viz. That no man can present himself to a Living : from whence it follows as fast as hops , that some body else must doe it ( for no man can be himself , and some body else with all the little thingams about him Secundum idem , ad idem &c. ) It remaines therefore to be examined , who this some body is . And it will be found to be either the King himself , or some Nobleman , or Colledge , or Corporation or private Gentleman ( for these are all the some-bodys that can be thought of ) but it is as plain as any thing in Euclid , that it is perfectly impossible that any man unfit or unable should by any of these meanes get into a Living . For suppose we try a little and begin at the highest . Will any body be so bold , saucy and impudent , so forgetfull of all allegiance and have so little dread of Majesty , as to dishonour the broad Seal , and beg its favour , in that wherein he knowe● himself unworthy ? I●e , pro●ul it● profani . Nothing certainly 〈◊〉 comparable to it , but stealing the Crown it self . In like manner it is as unconceivable , that any man that is not sufficiently improved , should procur● a presentation from any person of Honour . For these being all Cousins to the King , whatever inconvenience or disgrace falls here , reflects at last upon the Crown it self . I need not shew how impossible it is that either a Colledge or Corporation should prefer an Hocus , when they have their choice of so many . There is nothing therefore now hinders the topping of the domonstration , and for ever confounding all that hold the contrary ; but that some Gentlemen possibly out of fondness , kindred , &c. should not present such as they think fittest , but those that can beg the handsomest , or love an Horse most , or play at 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 best : But he 〈…〉 worthy to breath in English aire that can think so meanly of a true English man. But suppose there should be one or so that should wholly forget himself , and his Nation , so much as to enquire into some other abilities , and dispositions of mind , besides 〈◊〉 learning , where is that bold son of Simon ? O that I could but 〈…〉 upon that Varlet ! how would I tear and confound that ●wsord● con●●●nce ! I 'd teach him to fall in love with Horses , Gentlewomen , and to play at Tables and Bowles ! What ? now there never an Horse in all the Countrey that would please you , but after such great boun●● you must get away your Pa●rons Horse ? Would 〈…〉 serve you but just your Patrons ? and was there never a Gentlewoman in all the Nation to inveigle , but you must 〈◊〉 the House into an uproar , and 〈◊〉 away my Ladys , and leave her to catch cold , and the sweet mea●● to grow mouldy , and the morning Broth either not half boyl'd , or not rightly seasoned ? And to doe all this where you were so very much oblig'd , and so very civilly used ? Can't you receive a kindness , and then goe home and meditate , and be meek and thank full , but you must grow saucy and insolent thereupon , and challenge your Patron to play at Bowles , or Tables , and cheat him of his pennies ? So that it is very plain now ( as any thing in all Euclid ) that if one should of●er five hundred pounds for a benefic'd Ho●us , there is not one to be bought● for they are every one demonstrated out of the Kingdom . O Euclid , Euclid ! who would not dye twenty deaths to be akin but to thy little toe ? what a foolish and silly thing is Astronomy ! what , a man in the Moon , Will with the wisp , Jack with the Lantern ? 't is all a bubble , a cheat and imposture . But as for Euclid he is stout , sincere and solid at the bottom . But I must tell you , Sir , that it was a little too triumphantly done , to defy me to pick out ten Clergy-men not fit to discharge their duty , when you had got such a demonstration , that there could not be so much as one in the whole Nation . It was ill husbandry in you to spend so much defiance upon me alone , when your reasons were big enough to have challenged the whole world . Not less admirable and full are your Answers , than your demonstrations are binding . I enquire , suppose , how those two hundred that usually commence shall be maintain'd or live . Live ? I answer ( say you ) first in generall that they doe live somewhere . For as long as we doe not hear that they dye in a ditch , or are knocked on the head , or starved ; so long we have sufficient reason to conclude that they are all alive , and enough is as good as a feast ; and the best of all can desire no more than to live . But after this generall proof of their Metaphysical existence● then you set upon a more particular resolution of the case . Two hundred it seems I hold yearly commence . Now , say you , let us bring things a little to standard , and but observe closely how our s●all Conjecturer talks at random . First of all , say you , many Gentle●●● 〈◊〉 , then Lawyers Common and Civil , then Physicians , and then ● fifth part are preferr'd in the Vni●ersity : and if all these were 〈◊〉 out of his two hundred , the 〈◊〉 will not be very great . Six or seven I suppose or thereabouts . But however , Sir , if you please we 'l a little examine this same 〈◊〉 ; a fifth part , say you , I must deduct txcause I haves said so ; Well : let that goe : I won't repent ; that 's 〈◊〉 Next , the Common Lawyers are to be deducted . Let me see . I cannot afford above four at the most ; for most of them go to the Inns of Courts ; before they safe any degree : And I care not much if I allow four more for Civill Law , and 〈◊〉 many for Physick , and then I 'le 〈◊〉 you six to commence that intend no calling at all ( which is more by half than I need to doe ) and then out of pure love , I 'le ●ling in two more , all which put together make just sixty . Now if these same sixty be carefully taken out of two hundred according to the best rules which either Antient or Modern Arithme●icianss have laid down for this great affair ; I am cruelly afraid that there will remain an hundred and fourty . A ●olly company I profess for a 〈◊〉 . But however let them goe : they 'l make 〈◊〉 well enough , so long as you know a way how to make them all exist . The next thing that I must get you to promise me is , that you would not ghess where men 〈◊〉 . For it is nothing to your purpose : and besides many a phanise and jest is lost if you should chance to be mistaken . I shall beg leave , Sir , to press this upon you only in two or three instances . If you remember , Sir , at the very first Page of all your Book , you fall into a most dismall strong fit , that T. B. and R. L. are all one : and that they are intended only for blinds , to cheat and gull the world . Now I must in the first place tell you that W. S. was the first that found out this ; and therefore you must not look upon your self as the Author of that suspicion : only he did not make so good a quibble as you did . But to go on , Sir , I pray why are you so very mistrustfull ? what ? have you bespoak or bought up all the R. Ls in the Nation , that you will not let a man have one ? or is the family so very small , that amongst them all , there should not be one poor dear R. L. that should fall to my share ? fear not , Sir ; for upon my word if you were acquainted with them , so well as I am , you would acknowledge the R. Ls to be a very large , & spreading family : There 's a plentifull stock of them in Middlesex , and several in other part● of the Nation . And if amongst all these there be but one , whom it is worth the while to admire , to observe or send Letter to ; then as to your Greek quibble , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you are as utterly undone , as ●ver was Oyster . Suppose you had writ by way of a Letter , and directed yours to Z. X. doe you think that I would have suspected your integrity , or interest in that small family , and abuse you with the outside of Antoninus . How doe I know what interest you may have or make . I am confident there is no true gentile English spirit , but would have scorn'd to have done as you did . And then after you had abused one in Greek , calling me 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , your malice must hold out to Latin too , Qui nescit simulare nescit vivere . Whereas all the world will say , that know any thing concerning the T. Bs , that they are as far from 〈…〉 false heartedness , 〈◊〉 all your Greek and Latin that you crowd together is from any wit. It was● Sir , a little more modestly done , what you say in the following page , viz. that I write so as if I had been Secretary to some Committee of plunder'd Ministers in the blessed times . For you doe not absolutely say that you stood just behind me , when I leaped a yard and halfe to snap at the Covenant . Neither are you certainly sure that I am an Anabaptist , Independent or the like : but only that any one may ghesse that I am of some ●eformado congregation , by my stile and canting expressions , and way of talking : which ( say you ) is the proper and characteristicall note of a separatist . Thou art a most excellent characteristicall ghesser indeed . I 'd have the Catholick Church employ you to ghess what the Turk does really intend in his heart , and how much hurt he can possibly doe to the Christian Religion . You can ●asily doe it , Sir , by your signes and badges , by your Characteristicks and indications . O it is a most admirable thing to have quick senses , and to be able to compare things , and lay all ends together right ! and to find out a Separatist only by his wh●● and saddle-cloath : and to be so tender-nosed as to smell a Fanatick as far as another man shall do broil'd Herrings , or a burnt froise . But doe you hear , Sir ; have you quite forgot since you were at my house , when Tyrannus his Sequestrators and Troopers carried away my whole Stable of Horses , not leaving me so much as old Sorrell to ride on ? and doe you remember nothing of your coming to see me when I was kept close Prisoner at Basing-house for carrying a Letter privately to his Majesty ? these are most Characteristicall notes of a Separatist . I beseech you , dear Sir , do'nt ghess any more , you had 〈…〉 all out of your own phansie , when you intend to abuse one : and say that which shall certainly and presently take : and not what may possibly be a jest , if you be not mistaken , or if I please . You know , Sir , you have ordered me to be a Doctor : which if I will accept of , then to be called Mountebank and Apothec●●y are great discouragements . But suppose I am already engaged in the Tin-mines : or am in no hast of Commencing , then when I shall be pleased to goe out Doctor , you may possibly creep out for a small wit. Thus , Sir , you tell me ( pag. 84. ) that you have a fine story for me , and that you will give me the honour to bear a considerable part in it . Now , I tell you , that I doe not intend to receive my Honour from you , nor any disgrace , nor to be concerned in any story that you can tell , unless you can find out where my Bastards are at Nurse . Can't you live where you lift , and let me do so too . I shall not enquire after you , I 'le assure you ; nay I would not know you , if you should lay me down half a Crown towards it . I tell you therefore once again , I do'nt live any where nor never intend ( as far as you shall know ) to live any where , but only to exist , after that manner you provide for the younger Clergy . But , say you , I must needs know him , and have him live somewhere , or else the best story and the greatest piece of wit in my whole Book , will be utterly spoiled . Well , because I am willing to encourage all witty attempts though they be never so slender , therefore for once I 'le hear some of your fine story ( upon condition you 'l engage never to ghess again . ) Belike then in the first place you give me to understand , that in your travails you met with a certain Covent where there was an ancient Pigeon-house , but the inhabitants were all fled . The best way certainly will be to roast a Cat , and besprinkle her with cumming seed . They say this will fetch back the creatures again presently , if they were not very much offended . And thereupon , Sir , I mentioned the business to the Cat : ( for you know Boccaline can make a Cat to speak . ) Pusse , said I , we have lost all our Pigeons and thou knowest as well as any man in France that a Covent without Pigeons is like a Cow without cymbals ; and therefore if thou wilt resign up thy self to the Spit , and be roasted for the bringing home of the Pigeons ; thy picture shall be hung in the Library , thou shalt be shown with the Phoenix feathers and Remora's ●●nnes , and be constantly commemorated with the Benefactors . Upon which the Cat , first kissing her foot , purr'd , and said . Sir , I must alwayes acknowledge the great favours that I have received from this place : for where as for many years I liv'd only upon course Mice and Ratts ; now I have my belly full of Triangles , and Pyramids , Globes and Circles : But as to what you propound concerning my being roasted , I must confess I am not altogether free ; because I remember my Grandsire once told me that it was much worse than a ●●eve and scissars ; and therefore charged me , as I loved my life , to avoid it a● the most vile of all Conjurations . But this , Sir , I 'le do if you please ; I 'le wait upon them , and let them know that if they 'l come home again they shall be very civilly respected , have every ●orning a peck of Pease , and once a week fresh Salt-Peter : But whether they 'l come or not upon this invitation , I cannot yet tell . The next piece of honour you do me is to let me know that there be people belonging to this foresaid Covent , that have beards above a cu●it long . Indeed , Sir , you would have added very much to this kindness of yours , if you had been pleased to have discovered what cubit you meant ; for amongst the Learned I find there be five several sorts of Cubits : The first kind of Cubit ( called the common ) containeth one foot and a half , measured from the sharp of the elbow to the point of the middle finger . The second , ( the palm cubit ) taketh one handful more than the common . The third , is called Regius Cubitus , or the Persian Cubit , which exceedeth the common Cubit three inches . The fourth , is the sacred Cubit , which containeth the Common or Vulgar Cubit double , wanting but a quarter or fourth part . Lastly , there is fifth Cubit , called Geometrical , which containeth six common Cubits . Now when you say Above a Cubit ; if you chance to mean this same last sort of Cubits , and withall let but Above signifie a good way bit , the Story thereby will become much the stranger , and your telling of it the greater favour . But then , as to what you tell me , that you being invited to Dinner , observed that every man sate down where he pleased , and fell to , where he liked best . Give me leave , Sir , to tell you , that I am afraid that a great part of this is of your own invention : for how is it likely that every man should set down according to his own mind , because another might have a mind to set in the same place : and therefore some of them must be disappointed ; unless you will grant penetration of bodies , which , you know , neither your Philosopher nor mine will by any means allow : and as to what you say of every man falling to , where he liked best , it is such a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that I do not intend to believe one tittle of it , till at least 7 years after the sea be burnt . What ? for every one of them to fall to where he liked best ! Cred●t Iudaeus Apella ! 't is Epicurisme , Sadducisme , Sorcery , Extortion , and I know not how much more besides : and indeed it cannot possibly be less ; especially , if we do but consider , what strange kind of Idolatrous diet these Covent Rascals feed upon . They have already eat up almost all the fifteen Books of Euclid : they make no more of a Pentagon or Pyramid , than a Porter would do of a farthing Custard . And if there be not some stop put to them , they 'l be for fresh pasture shortly ; and gobble down Archimedes too . Nay , I wo'nt trust them , to stick at the Polyglott Lexicon it self : There 's that snarling curr , and son of a Bitch Boccaline , can shew them the way ; his teeth are ready set for such a design , and to fall on , if they 'l but follow him : he has made havock of all Religion already , and abused and discouraged all witty and saving preaching . I suppose next he 'l be for the Word of God it self , and set his Eleutherians to eat up the Bible , as well as they have done , Euclid ; if some care be not taken with him . And then we shall neither have left a Demonstration from the Broad Seal , nor Divine Authority to withstand and confound the wicked . Oh that I had but this gurning Rogue Boccaline in an iron chest ! I 'd take down the drumminess of his gut , without goose grease . I 'd learn him to rail against fasts , and to stuff his ungodly paunch , with circles and cylinders ; and to unhinge the Government . O that the High Commission Court would but awake once again , and appoint a time and place for his suffering at the Market cross ! How many miles would I ride to see such villa●y chastised ? and how many Hen's nests would I examine , to pelt his impudent forchead that stands before , and to eggifie his she Asses mane that hangs behind ? But , my dear , my duck , my sweet , my honey : I prithee , why so very fierce and furious ? You tell me that you know a place where there 's a company of Phantasticks , Sotts , Hypocrites , and Atheists ; who despise all the world , eat and drink till they can't see , abuse all Religion , believe no life but the present , and that had a good Library of Books , but order'd all them to be burnt . Now , if you 'd have my opinion in the case , to make up the harmony of things , I would have every one of them to be hang'd ; and , I think , that 's as fair as any man in the world can say . It is very strange to observe the great difference that is in Climats . It is storied of a certain sort of people living towards the South , whose ears are so very large , that the one reaches down to mid-leg ; and attends to all that 's done below : the other stands right up into the sky , like a large Cabbage leaf , and listens to all that comes from above ; upon the same accompt their eyes are accordingly placed : for they have one just at the bottom of the foot , the other is fixed upon the very crown of the head : These people are very much given to soft corns upon the left foot , they never fail of one about the bigness of an ordinary Pillion , which they lay under their head instead of a bolster . They have a great kindness for Tripes and Cow-heels : but that which they chiefly worship is a Calfe's gin , stuffed full of six penny nayls . If any thing offends their stomach , they take two or three pounds of lead or iron , and wrapping it up in a hedge-hogs skins ▪ swallow it whole : the pores of their body are very near as large as those of a Nutmeg grater , and so they had need ; for they never piss but once a month , and never go to stool but once a quarter ; and that exactly upon the quarter-day , except it be Leap-year ; these people , for the most part , are kind , and obliging ; only they have got a scurvy custom of pickling most of their children at three years of Age : and after a great frost , they eat them , with gun-powder and mustard ; about three months ago , one of them was burnt for maintaining that an Eele was a living creature . The greatest part of them hold with the Balo surgians , that the Sun is only an Oxe's liver : that the heavens turn round upon a farthing candle : and that the earth , some time or other , will take a frolick , and run into the sea ; and so make a huge hasty pudden . Now , Sir , I must desire of you that you would do your self so much right , as to bear a part in this Story . I hope you 'l interpret all candidly : there 's no foul play at all ; 't is only trick for trick : You may easily perceive where your share lies ; as also in another , which I have out of a very learned Authour , such as you chiefly trade in . You know , Sir , you tell me , Pag. 49. how horribly Thesmopolis's beard was abused by a Roman Lady's bitch . I know there is some deadly Moral , or other , intended for me ; and therefore I must desire you to take this one trick more . Callisthenes King of Sicyon , having a Daughter marriageable , commanded that it should be proclaimed at the Games of Olympus , that he that would be counted Callisthenes's Son in Law , should within sixty days repair to Sicyon . When many Woers had met together , Hippoclides the Athenian , Son of Tisander , seemed the fittest : but when he had trod the Laconick and Antick measure , and had personated them with his legs and arms , Callisthenes stomaching it , said , O thou Son of Tisander ! thou hast danced away my Daughter . I cannot conveniently stand to explain it , because I have one thing more to request of you , viz. That you do not absolutely pronounce such things to be flams , forgeries and whiskers , which , for ought you know , may be all solid , and massi● truths . I have heard some people say , that you did not write the Preface : but do you think I would venture to say so , unless I certainly knew it ? No , I would not do it for my right hand ; for though it is said towards the latter end of it , that you have some charity for T. B. which makes me doubt whether it be yours , ( you having not so much for him in your whole Book , as will lie upon a knifes point : ) yet all the beginning of it smells so very rank of your own kind of reasoning , that it can scarce possibly be any bodies else but your own ; unless you would give one five or ten pieces to imitate and labour out so much Nonsense . I say therefore once again , suppose you have a mind to believe that such and such things are no where to be found , either in printed Sermons , nor were ever preached out of the Pulpit : I advise you by all means that you do not presently run on , and say , this is a very flam ; that 's a most deadly whisker ; here 's right down coining , and forgery ; there 's hammering and filing in abundance : but rather put on your night-cap , and be very much afraid : bind up your head very close , and fall to doubting , suspecting , mistrusting as hard as ever you can . But , I beseech you , go not one inch further , till you have considered and said thus to your self . Have I read all the Sermons that were ever Printed since — ? and do I exactly remember every Sentence that is in them ? was there never two men in England preached upon the same Text ? and can I , like St. John Baptist's head , be at all the Parishes in the Nation , at the same time ; and hear all the Sermons that were ever preached ? If T. B. happens to be at St. Antholins upon a Sunday , must the bells be stopt , and he not suffered to go to Church till I be sent for from Edingborough ? and was there never yet one in the world , that thought it lawful to alter his Copy ? These and such like things , I would have you consider of , before you be absolute , and peremptory ; for upon my word , if you do otherwise , you 'l find a very great inconvenience of it : for instance ; you are of opinion that no one ever preached upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , after that manner , that I have described ; and why ? because you heard once a man upon that Text , that did not do so ; but only just reflected upon the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifying Lords . Well ; take that man to your self ; much good may he do you : but now Logick ! now Wheel-barrow ! may not I , for all that , have another man that did insist upon it , three quarters of a good statutable English hour together ? You may call it gliding , glancing or reflecting ; I call it preaching . I tell you I have such an one , and will have him in spight of your teeth ; and you shall not have one bit of him . Neither could I possibly ever intend to meddle with yours : for I verily think I know whom you mean ; and I never heard that in his whole life he did so much as name the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 upon any such occasion , till a long time after my Letter was Printed : and now how can I help it ; if he be offended , or think himself slandered . So you tell me that you know a very worthy Person , who preaching upon that of St. Matth. seek ye first the Kingdom of God , did only observe in transitu , that Monarchy was the best Government . It may be so ; it was well for him : but , for all that , I have , I 'le assure you , one that was in no such great hast at all . I perceive , Sir , you are most wofully afraid that I should want vent for my Stories : but , I must tell you plainly and truly , that they scramble for them so fast that I have not half enough : there be no less than three several men that do offer to take off that concerning Faith , Hope and Charity of my hands : but I desire them to forbear ; for it is already promised . Another sends me word from about Epping in Essex ( it is no flam I profess ) that he 'l undertake for all that business about the Text being like a Sun-Dial , if I 'd alter but two or three things ; to which I answered , No ; for I had not mine near that place by above fourscore miles : but if he would take it altogether , as I found it , he should be very welcome : and I have one that will engage , think you as you will , not only for flanking , r●ring , intrenching , &c. but for forty more Military terms than I mentioned ; and you must know that I did not tell you half that Astronomy which I heard in a Country Village ; and , for a need , I could tell you the rest , and never use either forge , file , or hammer . And now , me thinks , ex pe●● 〈◊〉 , would do much better for me than for you , if you had not got it away first . Parson slip-stockin , say you , quitted the stage long since : so he might perhaps ; but , if he did , I 'le swear he came again : for the man died but a little before Easter last ; and the triangular heart of man , say you , is as old as Pauls : Let it be as old as it will ; but , for all that , I 'le lay a pot and a cake that I 'le shew it in a Sermon printed within these seven years , and bring you at least three or four men that have preached it within the same compass of time . I profess , Sir you had a great deal better not be altogether so forward to charge people with flams and whiskers , when as the great rappers are wholly upon your own side . I do acknowledge that I added — Silvestrem ten●i to quicken a little hic labor hoc opus , and per varior casus — Which methought went off but heavily alone ; and I do suppose that the points of the Compass are not in the Original ; and no body but a Child could have thought they had : and I care not much if I let you know besides , that amongst that which I quoted , I did mistake one word ; and if you had but hit on 't , then Boccaline had been a Rogue to purpose . I shall not help you in the case , make it your business : all that I shall say is this , that it was since the Conquest . And thus , Sir , I have given you my reasons why I do not at present answer your Book : and I desire that the same may serve , why I never intend to answer it , nor any such : the Preface I must confess , were I not in great hast , might deserve some little peculiar respect , for the sake of two as pretty , pretty objections as ever were devised . I shall only reverentially mention them , and keep the same awful distance from them , as from the rest of your Book , not daring to meddle with such impregnable pieces . The first horrible absurdity that I have committed is this , viz. That I should pretend ( as I do in my Preface ) to have a special reverence for the Clergy of England , and yet go about to give reasons in the Book , why some of the Clergy are contemned : and besides ( which is far worse ) should put in the word Contempt into the very Title Page , which is ▪ I know not how many Leagues off from Reverence . Now , say you , let all the men in the World make these things hang together . Yes : let them ; for I don't intend to try . The next absurdity that you catch me in is this , viz. that I ought not to have enquired into what I did ; because it was done either for the information of my self , or of others : ( for belike there 's no back-door to make any escape at . ) If of himself ; what need was there of its being printed ? Could not he have locked up himself close in his Study , and there have enlightned and clarified his own understanding ? Or could not he have gone into a Grove , and there ( for his own information ) have said it over softly to himself , and come home again with his lips close shut ? It remains therefore , as plain as can be , that he must needs print his Letter , that others might read it : and if so , then would I fain understand , whether they knew of it before , or not : if they did ; then this is full out as idle and absurd as to inform himself ; and if they did not , then your only design must be to unhinge the Government : for 't is just like a firework in the powder-room ; it blows up all into confusion and brings in Sedition and Schisme , as thick as Hogs go to Rumford . Sir , you must needs excuse me , that I cannot stay to reply to this , because there 's a new Brother of yours with a deadly hard name , that I must say two or three words to ; and therefore in great haste farwel . T. B. R. L. is well , and presents his service to you . A LETTER To T. D. The AUTHOR of Hieragonisticon , OR Corah's Doom . From T. B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . LONDON , Printed by E. Tyler and R. Holt , for Nath. Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange , 1672. A LETTER , &c. Devonshire . Jan. 20. 1671. Sir , UNderstanding that you are very much concern'd for my wellfare ( as appears at large by several places in your Letter , ) and having not the convenience to let you know so by the Gazette , according as you desired ; these are only to acquaint you , that ( thankes be to God ) I am in very good bodily health at the present writing hereof , wishing that you had been as well in your witts , when you writ your Book . My Wife remembers her love to you , and thanks you for sending me to the Devil . Bette had sent you a cake , but she poor child ! was 〈◊〉 with an ague about the last aequinox , wherewith she is so valde dilacerated , that she has parum left but skin and bones . We durst not venture upon the Iesuits powder , lest the Ague should have gon out , and the Devil and the Pope should have enter'd in . Last Market day wheat was three shillings a Bushell at Exeter . But — tush ; not a word of the Captain . Because the Dun Cow went a maskarado last night , and is not as yet returned . Upon the foruth of this month our neighbour Geofrey's barn was eclipsed , ab ovo ad mala . And the night before Widdow Wamford was vulpeculated of her brood Goose. — latet anguis in herbâ . The Turkie Cock growes very melancholy . — Sed fortiter occupa portum . Mr Davis does not at all question , but he shall get a Decree in Chauncery . You may possibly hereupon think , Sir , that I have read your Book : but if you doe , you are much mistaken . For so long as I can get Tolambus's History of mustard , Frederigo's devastation of Pepper , and the Dragon with cutts ; Mandringo's Pismires rebuffeted , and retro-confounded , Is qui nil dubitat , or a flie-flap against the maggot of Haeresie , efflorescentia flosculorum , or a choice collection of the elegancies of F , Wither's Poems , or the like , I do not intend to meddle with it . Alas ! Sir , I am so unlikely to read your Book , that I can't get down the Title , no more than a duck can swallow a yok'd Heifer . How is it ? Hieragonist●con , Or — but hold — let me see — tush — have a care — latet anguis — not a word — vulpes — tread softly — there 's a Bear — once more — no — Iesuits Powder — Hieragonisticon , Sir , without the Or , is more than I can digest these twelve months . And whereas you subscr●be your self T. D. You ought to have gon on E. F. G. H. I. K. &c. but I pray , Sir , was not Hieragonisticon enough for your Heliogabaluship● was not that sufficiently confoundative , debellative , and depopulative ? but you must put in — or Corah's Doom . If you had had such a mind to an Or — it should have been thus . Beroza Almacantherah : or a mouse-trap to catch Moles . Daemonico — Diabolico — Satanico — Tresleamiano : or a certain amulet against the Devil and fleas . Phlogerosticon — polu terastaton — Boroaston : or Oliver's Porter got out of Bedlam with his breeches full of Bibles , raging against the whore of Babylon . I tell you once again that I have not as yet read your Book , neither doe I ever intend to read it . I hear some people say , that have stag'd it over , that you hold a God , the Trinity , Providence , the Divine Authority of the Scriptures , the Protestant Religion to be the best , &c. and hold many of these things so violently , that you prove them twenty or thirty pages together . I have therefore nothing to say to you , but only to let you know that I firmly believe all those things ; and I believe besides ( which is no more than the rest of the world do ) that you are quite out of your witts , and are run away from your keepers . And therefore instead of reading your book , in the first place I advise you to shave very close all the haire off your Crown . You need not fear turning Friar , you may lay on an antipapal plaister , that shall certainly secure you . Then take away fifty or threescore ounces of blood , at several times , according as it shall be found that you come to your self . If you make use of Leeches be sure that they be well cleans'd . If you purge , use very gentle things , such as Manna and Syrup of roses , which they give to children and mad men . Till your distemper abates , avoid all strong meats , Tobacco , hot spices , and especially Coffee , for the powder has been sometimes observed to settle into a Saracens head at the bottom of the dish . And above all things have a great care of studying , or of writing of Books , till your head be better ; and of sleeping upon your back . For the vapours will be apt to rise , and you 'l dream of nothing but invasions , inquisitions , gun-powder plotts , spiritual maskarados , Popery and Atheisme . When you have observed , Sir , these directions for a while , and that your Brain be a little cool'd , I desire that you would look over your own Book again : and then I do not question , but that you 'l freely forgive not only me , but all the rest of the world that can't read it . T. B. A LETTER TO I. O. From T. B. LONDON , Printed by E. Tyler and R. Holt , for Nathaniel Brooke , at the Sign of the Angel in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1672. A LETTER , &c. SIR , JUst as the foregoing papers were ready for the presse , I happen'd upon seven Sermons of W. B's , printed since his death . Before which , I found standing an Epistle to the Reader from your self ; beginning with a very large and solemn commendation of the departed Divine's labours , both in print and preaching : that , think I , it is not for me to help : for some people take a delight to commend things only out of spight . But , reading a little further , I perceiv'd that , I must be pull'd in to thrust forward W. B's prayses ; or at least to defend his writings against those , that thought them very blameable , and good for little . For , say you , this Reverend Author's labours have already praised him in the gate , and his name and memory will continue like a precious oyntment , notwithstanding the vain endeavours of some to make both himself and his writings ridiculous : for there 's a late Author ( meaning I suppose T. B. ) who shewes that there 's as much folly in the preaching of the Conformists as of W. B. and such as are of his way . Now , in the first place , I must desire you to unbelieve all that you have said : for , this is to let you know , that I was never able to shew any such thing at all , and that if I should go about it , my parts would not hold out to do it . Some of you I believe , were not a little pleased with my first Letter : Taking me for a very hopeful and towardly Fanatick ( which I could never give my mind to as yet , and I suppose never shall ) and thought that my designe was to ballance the imprudences of some of our Clergy , against the follies and frenzy of your party . I tell you truly , I di● endeavour to relate very freely what I found sober and judicious men to blame amongst some of our Preachers : but when you appoint me to make out , that such of our Clergy who are too painful in dividing of a Text , or too careless in choosing their prefaces &c. are to be compared with your people , who are not only full out as blameable in that very kind , but whose whole discourses under pretence of inspiration and great acquaintance with the Scriptures &c. shall be nothing else but madness and distraction , noise , cheat , and words ; I must then tell you , that you give me a task so very unreasonable , as I am no ways able to perform it : and truly , I am the more unwilling to undertake it , because I am much discouraged by the late writings of two very learned and Worthy Authors : viz. the Friendly debates and 〈…〉 . Whom you think fit , I perceive , in your Epistle , to 〈…〉 for a couple of 〈…〉 but I am afraid , Sir , you have to your shame , so 〈…〉 very great weight of their judgements , 〈◊〉 well as the 〈…〉 that you 'l scarce ever be throughly reconciled again , either to wit or understanding . And truly , no body need much to wonder why you should fear that Religion it self would be contemn'd and slighted by the 〈◊〉 of such witty men . For , when you had brought your self into notorious disgrace by going about to reply to Books , which neither your self nor all your party was able to say word to : then you thought of another answer : which was , that you would e'en turn Martyr , and be persecuted and suffer with Religion it self ; which you now found very much to languish , beeing made ridiculous and contemptible by those very same men , that had justly mad● 〈◊〉 so . Neither again is it at all strange , that you should esteem those same Witty mens endeavours to be in vain ; because one may ghesse at the full reach and extent of your judgement by the commendations you give of those Sermons . Which though you ●ope ( as you say ) are free from all exception , yet he that lookes but very little into them , will soon see that they are as full of s●ovenly Metaphors , of canting phrases and 〈◊〉 applications of Scripture , as ever any Book was , that W. ● . or any body else Printed . And because you think that W. B ●s writings are very found in themselves , and only made ridiculous 〈◊〉 witty men : therefore I shall only transcribe some few places by which it may appear , whether there 's any need of wit , to help them to be ridiculous . In the first p●ace I offer to any mans Judgment ( let him live as far of● as he will , from the censorious Church of England , so he does but understand sence ) whether it was at all prudent , modest , or reverential for W. B. to say , that none but God alone can rate off Satan : though he explains himself , and shews whence he had the Metaphor : as he does , thus : viz. If a great Dog or Mastiff be worrying a Child or a Sheep , a Stranger comes and strikes him , and calls him off , but the Dog takes no notice of him , but when the Master comes , he rates him off presently ; none but the Master can do it . So here it is , none but God that can rate off Satan from worrying the poor drooping soul , when it is under temptation , none but God the Master . I desire also to know by what Laws of Rhetorick he tells us , that there 's a time when God will hew down sinners , and lay them upon the ground a drying for hell : and that people that are upon God's Work must not pocket up ▪ And many such things which would be very harsh and nauseous to any person of understanding , and make him very loth to relie upon such a judgement as yours . Neither d● I think , that any Body will suddainly trust you again , for a recommender of Sermons , when he finds such idle and extravagant cantings ; as God's crossing of hands in our salvation , of reading of Graces , and gathering up of Evidences . Because 't is said in Scripture that the last shall be first , and the first last : Therefore saies W. B. there 's crossing of hands in our salvation ; and God doth cross hands in the matter of our comforts . When Jacob blessed Joseph's two children he crost his hands : so God when he comes to comfort does cross hands . We find sometimes that the greatest sinners are converted and soonest comforted : Now what is this but crossing of hands in the matter of our comforts ; and whence is the free Grace of God more abundantly manifested to the soul , but by this crossing of hands . A rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven ; and what is this but only to shew that God doth often cross hands in the matter of our salvation . Friends , stay but a little until the day of Iudgement , and then you will see what crossing of hands there will be . Now when any body reads such idle stuff as this , I pray , Sir , do you think he need send for a witty man to make it ridiculous ? Neither need the witty man be ●ent for to make him laugh at that which W. B. has concerning peoples reading of their Graces , viz. When a man is under great temptations , sorrows , and afflictions , it is a hard thing to read his Graces ; some will say they cannot read their Graces , they lie at the bottom : As to explain it , take this plain comparison : There are many Fishes in a fish-pond , but now in rainy and foul weather the fish lie all at the bottom , and are not to be seen ; but in fair weather the fish swim and are visible : So if it be foul weather upon a soul , if it be dark and gloomy weather , the Soul cannot read his Graces ; but now when God shines upon him , then he is inabled to read them ; yea though his Graces lie at the bottom , as I may say , yet the poor Soul is able to read them ; and if it be so , it is no small thing , it is no small matter to read our Graces , our other Graces . And I believe the witty man may stay at home , and yet the Work will go on apace about gathering up of Evidences . You know ( sayes your Reverend Divine ) how it is with a Countrey man that makes hay ; the hay lies abroad , and he sees a black cloud a coming , and he calls to his men to cock up , and gather up the hay : Why , look into the Nation , and see what a cloud is over us , this calls upon the people of God to gather up their Evidences : Here is a black cloud over us ; O all ye people of God , gather up your Evidences : that is , cock up for Heaven . I am , Sir , in somewhat more than ordinary haste , or else I would a little further endeavour to make you think it more convenient to read Books better before you commend them , or at least not to challenge the World to find fault with them . However I cannot omit to take notice how strong W. B's parts were to his very dying day , at commanding and applying of Scripture . I suppose , Sir , you could not but take special notice of that mel●ing observation that your friend has concerning Brotherly Love , viz. that there are oftimes breakin gs and loosings in the love of the Saints . But this is nothing in respect of that clear Paraphrase which from hence he makes upon that of St. Iohn : a new Commandement I give unto you , that you love one another : For says he , because many times there are breakings and loosings in the love of Saints , upon this accompt it is , that the Commandement of Love is called a new Commandement , because it is broken so often , and so often renewed again . I would by all means have you endeavour to get Mr. Poole to enter down this note of your friends , when he comes at St. Iohn : for this will certainly add very much to the preciousness of his name and memory . Neither ought he to be forgotten , neither I believe will he , for pouring forth such abundance of Scripture History upon one Observation , which he makes in his seventh Sermon , viz. those that intend to honour God must go forth and meet God ; Abraham and Lot intended to honour the Angel , and therefore they went forth to meet him ; Joseph would honour his Father Jacob , and therefore he went forth to meet him . Moses would honour his Father Jethro , and therefore he went forth to meet him : Abigail would honour David , and therefore she went forth to meet him : Martha would honour Christ , and therefore went out to meet him : Cornelius and the believing Romans would honour Paul , and therefore they went forth to meet him . And so if a man be coming to your house , if you would honour him , you go forth to ●eet him : And so if a man intend to honour God ( thereby intending to prevent his Iudgements ) you must take up your Cudgel and Gloves , and troop out and meet the Lord. Now , Sir , as I told you just now , I am in haste ; but I must stay to tell you that as I always looked upon W. B. to be very sickly and crazy , so I think you are stark mad , for being an occasion that any such Sermons as these should be sent into the World : And yet for all this , I am willing to extend my charity as far as you do yours ; and to believe that W. B. is in Heaven ; but not , as you imagine , by vertue of his preached or printed Sermons ; and I also hope that you may follow him thither ; but by no means , because you have recommended this Book . T. B. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A39266-e47010 Cl●v●r . in●rod . in Geog.