A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.
         Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.
      
       
         
           1647
        
      
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         99861982
         114129
         
           
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             A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.
             Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.
          
           [12], 80, 71-109 [i.e. 119], [1] p.
           
             Printed for J. Rothwell, and H. Allen at the Sun and Fountaine in Pauls Church-yard, and the Crown in Popes-head Alley,
             London :
             1647.
          
           
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             "Macher" is altered in MS. to "Mather" on t.p.
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         eng
      
       
         
           Rutherford, Samuel, 1600?-1661. -- Due right of Presbyteries -- Early works to 1800.
           Herle, Charles, 1598-1659 -- Early works to 1800.
           Church of Scotland -- Government -- Early works to 1800.
           Independant churches -- England -- Early works to 1800.
           Congregationalism -- Early works to 1800.
           Presbyterianism -- Early works to 1800.
           Church polity -- Early works to 1800.
        
      
    
     
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           A
           REPLY
           TO
           Mr.
           Rutherfurd
           ,
           OR
           ,
           A
           defence
           of
           the
           Answer
           to
           Reverend
           Mr.
           Herles
           Booke
           against
           the
           Independency
           of
           Churches
           .
        
         
           VVherein
           such
           Objections
           and
           Answers
           ,
           as
           are
           returned
           to
           sundry
           passages
           in
           the
           said
           Answer
           by
           Mr.
           
             Samuel
             Rutherfurd
          
           ,
           a
           godly
           and
           learned
           Brother
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           Scotland
           ,
           in
           his
           Booke
           Entituled
           
             The
             Due
             Right
             of
             Presbyters
          
           ,
           are
           examined
           and
           removed
           ,
           and
           the
           Answer
           justified
           and
           cleared
           .
        
         
           By
           RICHARD
           MA●HER
           Teacher
           to
           the
           Church
           at
           Dorchester
           in
           New
           ENGLAND
           .
           1646.
           
        
         
           LONDON
           ,
           Printed
           for
           
             J.
             Rothwell
          
           ,
           and
           
             H.
             Allen
          
           at
           the
           Sun
           and
           Fountaine
           in
           Pauls
           Church-yard
           ,
           and
           the
           Crown
           in
           Popes-head
           Alley
           ,
           1647
           ,
        
      
       
         
         
         
           The
           Authors
           Preface
           to
           the
           Reader
           .
        
         
           
             Christian
             Reader
             ,
          
        
         
           HAving
           published
           some
           yeares
           agoe
           ,
           a
           small
           Treatise
           ,
           in
           way
           of
           a
           brotherly
           Answer
           to
           reverend
           Master
           Herle
           ;
           I
           now
           present
           unto
           thy
           view
           a
           defence
           thereof
           against
           such
           objections
           and
           answers
           as
           have
           been
           returned
           to
           sundry
           passages
           therein
           ,
           by
           reverend
           and
           learned
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           .
           In
           which
           undertaking
           it
           hath
           been
           farre
           from
           my
           intention
           to
           increase
           or
           uphold
           the
           differences
           that
           have
           appeared
           of
           late
           yeares
           in
           England
           amongst
           the
           servants
           of
           the
           Lord
           ,
           about
           matters
           of
           Church
           government
           .
           For
           I
           had
           much
           rather
           bring
           Prayers
           and
           teares
           for
           the
           quenching
           of
           such
           fires
           ,
           then
           fewell
           or
           oyle
           for
           the
           increasing
           thereof
           :
           neither
           shall
           the
           same
           I
           hope
           ,
           be
           any
           thing
           at
           all
           increased
           by
           what
           here
           I
           present
           now
           thy
           view
           .
           At
           the
           least
           this
           I
           may
           say
           ,
           that
           I
           intended
           
           no
           such
           thing
           but
           the
           contrary
           ,
           even
           the
           promoting
           of
           truth
           and
           peace
           ,
           if
           it
           were
           the
           will
           of
           God
           so
           to
           blesse
           my
           desires
           and
           endeavors
           .
           True
           it
           is
           ,
           I
           have
           taken
           the
           liberty
           to
           consider
           and
           try
           some
           things
           delivered
           by
           that
           reverend
           brother
           whom
           here
           I
           have
           to
           doe
           withall
           ,
           but
           this
           I
           trust
           cannot
           be
           justly
           offensive
           ,
           in
           as
           much
           as
           
             the
             Spirit
             of
             the
             Prophets
             is
             Subject
             to
             the
             Prophets
             ,
          
           1
           Cor.
           14.
           32.
           and
           the
           doctrine
           of
           the
           Apostle
           himselfe
           was
           examined
           by
           those
           noble
           Bereans
           ,
           whom
           the
           holy
           Ghost
           commendeth
           
             for
             searching
             the
             Scriptures
             daily
             ,
             whether
             those
             things
             were
             so
          
           Act.
           17.
           11.
           
           It
           is
           also
           true
           which
           our
           reverend
           brother
           saith
           in
           his
           Epistle
           to
           the
           Reader
           ,
           
             before
             his
             
               Peaceable
               Plea
            
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             great
             cause
             of
             sorrow
             that
             all
             the
             Lords
             people
             should
             not
             minde
             one
             thing
             ,
             and
             sing
             one
             song
             ,
             and
             joyne
             in
             one
             against
             the
             Children
             of
             Babel
             .
          
           Neverthelesse
           ,
           this
           may
           be
           some
           comfort
           against
           this
           sorrow
           ,
           that
           by
           the
           providence
           of
           the
           Lord
           this
           diversity
           of
           opinions
           and
           disputes
           ,
           if
           it
           be
           Christianly
           carried
           as
           it
           may
           ,
           may
           occasion
           and
           produce
           in
           the
           issue
           the
           further
           clearing
           up
           of
           truth
           .
           
             For
             as
             our
             author
             well
             observeth
             ,
             from
             the
             Collision
             of
             opinions
             resulteth
             truth
             :
          
           and
           disputes
           as
           stricken
           flints
           cast
           fire
           for
           light
           .
           
             Due
             Right
             of
             Presbyt
             .
             Epistle
             to
             the
             Reader
             .
          
           The
           desire
           and
           hope
           whereof
           ,
           together
           with
           the
           advice
           of
           such
           brethren
           as
           I
           consulted
           withall
           ,
           was
           that
           which
           chiefely
           prevailed
           with
           me
           for
           the
           publishing
           of
           this
           reply
           ,
           wherein
           the
           reader
           will
           finde
           sundry
           Scriptures
           and
           questions
           controverted
           in
           these
           times
           ,
           discussed
           and
           considered
           so
           farre
           as
           the
           nature
           of
           a
           Reply
           or
           defence
           did
           lead
           thereto
           ;
           and
           I
           hope
           some
           or
           other
           through
           Gods
           blessing
           may
           receive
           some
           profit
           thereby
           .
           And
           if
           the
           humble
           Christian
           who
           desires
           to
           know
           ,
           and
           love
           and
           practise
           the
           truth
           ,
           
           shall
           receive
           any
           benefit
           or
           help
           for
           attaining
           these
           ends
           by
           meanes
           of
           this
           labour
           of
           mine
           ,
           it
           is
           that
           which
           I
           intended
           and
           aimed
           at
           ,
           and
           for
           which
           I
           desire
           that
           God
           alone
           may
           have
           the
           praise
           and
           glory
           .
           If
           any
           shall
           still
           remaine
           otherwise
           minded
           ;
           yet
           in
           due
           time
           I
           hope
           God
           shall
           reveale
           even
           this
           unto
           them
           .
           In
           the
           meane
           time
           ,
           diversity
           of
           apprehensions
           in
           these
           points
           ought
           not
           to
           bred
           any
           alienation
           of
           affection
           amongst
           those
           that
           are
           otherwise
           Orthodoxe
           ,
           and
           sincere
           .
           It
           were
           a
           thousand
           pitties
           ,
           if
           it
           should
           .
           For
           my
           part
           ,
           I
           cannot
           but
           approve
           what
           this
           
             reverend
             brother
             sometime
             professeth
             ,
             that
             he
             doth
             both
             love
             and
             dispute
             ,
             contradict
             and
             reverence
             at
             once
             :
             
               Peaceable
               Plea
            
             :
             Epist
             .
             Yea
             ,
             he
             counts
             himselfe
             a
             debtor
             for
             love
             ,
             charity
             ,
             honour
             and
             all
             due
             respect
             in
             Christ
             Jesus
             ,
             and
             a
             seat
             and
             lodging
             in
             his
             heart
             and
             highest
             esteeme
             to
             all
             those
             that
             be
             godly
             ,
             lovers
             of
             the
             truth
             ,
             and
             sufferers
             for
             the
             truth
             against
             Prelacy
             ,
             though
             possibly
             they
             like
             not
             well
             of
             Presbyteriall
             government
             :
          
           ibid.
           In
           answer
           whereto
           (
           for
           I
           would
           be
           loth
           that
           such
           love
           should
           be
           lost
           upon
           us
           ,
           without
           due
           returne
           of
           the
           like
           )
           I
           would
           for
           my
           part
           professe
           the
           like
           deare
           and
           due
           respect
           to
           all
           those
           that
           are
           qualifyed
           as
           here
           he
           doth
           describe
           (
           of
           which
           sort
           I
           know
           there
           are
           many
           )
           though
           possibly
           they
           may
           like
           better
           of
           the
           way
           that
           is
           called
           Presbyteriall
           ,
           then
           of
           the
           Congregationall
           .
           For
           those
           that
           give
           apparent
           Testimonies
           that
           they
           are
           the
           Lord's
           ,
           and
           so
           that
           they
           must
           live
           together
           in
           heavens
           ,
           I
           know
           not
           why
           they
           should
           not
           love
           one
           another
           on
           earth
           ,
           what
           ever
           differences
           of
           apprehensions
           may
           for
           the
           present
           be
           found
           amongst
           them
           in
           some
           things
           .
           As
           for
           bitternesse
           of
           spirit
           and
           tartnesse
           of
           contests
           ,
           I
           never
           thought
           that
           to
           be
           Gods
           way
           of
           promoting
           truth
           amongst
           
           brethren
           ,
           and
           therefore
           I
           have
           endevoured
           in
           this
           discourse
           to
           avoid
           the
           same
           .
           For
           I
           beleeve
           there
           is
           more
           hope
           of
           doing
           good
           by
           solidity
           of
           argument
           with
           a
           spirit
           of
           meeknesse
           and
           love
           ,
           then
           by
           sharp
           and
           tart
           language
           ,
           the
           fruit
           of
           bitternesse
           of
           spirit
           ,
           wherein
           for
           the
           most
           part
           right
           of
           reason
           is
           wanting
           ,
           the
           passions
           being
           there
           most
           vehement
           and
           stirring
           ,
           where
           the
           intellectuals
           are
           most
           ●eeble
           and
           weake
           .
        
         
           Now
           if
           any
           aske
           why
           this
           defence
           hath
           been
           so
           long
           deferred
           ,
           it
           being
           now
           two
           yeares
           and
           more
           since
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           his
           due
           right
           of
           Presbyt
           .
           came
           forth
           ,
           such
           may
           be
           pleased
           to
           consider
           that
           New
           England
           being
           as
           't
           is
           counted
           3000
           miles
           distant
           from
           old
           ;
           therefore
           many
           Books
           may
           be
           extant
           in
           England
           a
           long
           time
           afore
           we
           that
           are
           so
           remote
           can
           so
           much
           as
           heare
           any
           sound
           thereof
           :
           and
           those
           few
           that
           come
           to
           our
           knowledge
           ,
           are
           commonly
           extant
           in
           England
           a
           matter
           of
           a
           yeares
           space
           afore
           ,
           and
           sometimes
           longer
           .
           In
           which
           respect
           many
           things
           may
           be
           spoken
           and
           Printed
           against
           us
           ,
           whereto
           it
           cannot
           be
           expected
           that
           we
           should
           returne
           any
           speedy
           Answer
           .
           And
           though
           it
           be
           now
           twelve
           moneths
           agoe
           or
           more
           since
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           his
           due
           right
           of
           Presbyt
           .
           came
           to
           my
           hands
           ,
           yet
           at
           that
           time
           my
           few
           spare
           houres
           from
           my
           constant
           and
           ordinary
           employments
           were
           wholly
           taken
           up
           otherwise
           ,
           so
           that
           I
           could
           not
           attend
           this
           businesse
           any
           sooner
           :
           which
           I
           desire
           may
           be
           accepted
           as
           a
           just
           apologie
           for
           the
           late
           coming
           forth
           of
           this
           Reply
           ;
           which
           as
           it
           may
           seeme
           late
           ,
           so
           it
           is
           more
           large
           then
           in
           some
           respect
           I
           could
           have
           desired
           ,
           by
           reason
           that
           I
           doe
           usually
           transcribe
           those
           words
           of
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           ,
           whereto
           I
           d●e
           apply
           my
           Answer
           ;
           which
           course
           I
           confesse
           I
           did
           not
           unwillingly
           (
           in
           some
           respects
           )
           chuse
           ,
           partly
           to
           save
           the
           
           Reader
           a
           labour
           of
           turning
           to
           the
           place
           in
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           which
           I
           am
           speaking
           too
           ;
           which
           else
           he
           must
           have
           done
           ,
           or
           have
           taken
           things
           upon
           my
           report
           upon
           trust
           ;
           and
           partly
           that
           my
           candid
           and
           faire
           dealing
           with
           the
           Author
           ,
           whom
           I
           have
           to
           doe
           withall
           might
           the
           better
           appeare
           .
           For
           when
           a
           mans
           words
           are
           not
           kept
           ,
           but
           forsaken
           ,
           and
           others
           substituted
           in
           their
           place
           ,
           his
           minde
           and
           meaning
           may
           soone
           be
           mistaken
           ,
           and
           represented
           amisse
           unto
           the
           Reader
           .
           Which
           is
           a
           practise
           that
           I
           have
           often
           seene
           ,
           but
           never
           approved
           ;
           and
           therefore
           I
           have
           not
           used
           it
           .
           For
           I
           would
           be
           loth
           to
           wrong
           any
           man
           ;
           specially
           a
           man
           of
           such
           worth
           as
           I
           take
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           to
           be
           ,
           by
           imputing
           to
           him
           what
           he
           doth
           not
           teach
           nor
           deliver
           :
           and
           for
           this
           cause
           it
           is
           that
           I
           have
           usually
           transcribed
           and
           expressed
           his
           owne
           words
           ;
           and
           by
           this
           meanes
           my
           booke
           is
           growne
           to
           the
           greater
           bulk
           .
        
         
           One
           thing
           more
           I
           would
           advertise
           the
           Reader
           of
           ,
           and
           then
           I
           shall
           quickly
           have
           done
           :
           the
           figures
           from
           185
           and
           so
           forward
           ,
           noting
           the
           number
           of
           the
           Pages
           in
           Master
           Rutherfurd
           his
           Treatise
           ,
           are
           set
           downe
           twice
           therein
           ,
           once
           in
           their
           proper
           place
           ,
           and
           againe
           after
           the
           page
           484.
           
           Wherefore
           if
           any
           of
           these
           pages
           be
           quoted
           in
           this
           Reply
           ,
           as
           some
           of
           them
           are
           ,
           if
           the
           thing
           that
           is
           alleaged
           be
           not
           found
           in
           the
           page
           that
           is
           named
           ,
           looke
           for
           it
           in
           the
           other
           place
           of
           the
           booke
           where
           are
           the
           same
           figures
           ,
           and
           there
           you
           may
           finde
           it
           .
        
         
           Courteous
           Reader
           ,
           study
           the
           truth
           in
           a
           way
           of
           Piety
           and
           peace
           :
           Be
           zealous
           for
           it
           ,
           but
           lose
           not
           love
           to
           the
           Saints
           :
           beware
           ,
           when
           the
           world
           is
           filled
           with
           disputes
           about
           discipline
           ,
           that
           thou
           be
           not
           drawne
           onely
           to
           erroneous
           opinions
           in
           maine
           matters
           of
           doctrine
           .
           Be
           sure
           to
           practise
           and
           expresse
           the
           power
           of
           Godlinesse
           in
           humility
           
           of
           minde
           ,
           mortification
           of
           thy
           own
           corruption
           ,
           faith
           in
           the
           Lord
           Jesus
           ,
           and
           love
           to
           all
           his
           redeemed
           ;
           and
           be
           not
           by
           any
           meanes
           drawne
           away
           from
           these
           things
           ,
           which
           doe
           so
           mainly
           conduce
           to
           thy
           salvation
           .
           Finally
           as
           the
           Holy
           Ghost
           saith
           ,
           Phil.
           4.
           8
           ,
           9.
           whatsoever
           things
           are
           true
           ,
           whatsoever
           things
           are
           honest
           ,
           whatsoever
           things
           are
           just
           ,
           whatsoever
           things
           are
           lovely
           ,
           pure
           ,
           and
           of
           good
           report
           ,
           if
           there
           be
           any
           vertue
           ,
           if
           there
           be
           any
           praise
           ,
           thinke
           on
           these
           things
           ,
           and
           doe
           them
           ;
           and
           the
           God
           of
           peace
           shall
           be
           with
           thee
           .
           Improve
           I
           pray
           such
           interest
           as
           thou
           hast
           in
           God
           through
           the
           mediator
           ,
           by
           affording
           the
           help
           of
           thy
           Prayers
           for
           me
           ,
           who
           am
        
         
           
             Truly
             desirous
             of
             thy
             
             Salvation
             ,
             
             
               R.
               M.
            
             
          
           
             
               Decemb.
               10.
               1646.
               
            
          
        
      
       
         
         
           A
           Table
           of
           the
           Contents
           of
           the
           ensuing
           Treatise
           .
        
         
           
             
               Chap.
               1.
               
            
             OF
             Appeales
             from
             particular
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             ,
             and
             whether
             by
             
               Mr
               Rutherford
            
             his
             doctrine
             in
             this
             point
             there
             must
             not
             be
             appeales
             to
             Generall
             Counsells
             ,
             whose
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             he
             doth
             not
             yet
             deny
             .
             
               page
               .
               2.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               2.
               
            
             Of
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             to
             give
             advite
             and
             Counsell
             ,
             and
             whether
             from
             thence
             it
             doth
             follow
             that
             they
             have
             no
             power
             to
             command
             .
             
               page
               .
               11.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               3.
               
            
             Of
             the
             Assembly
             ,
             Acts.
             15.
             whether
             they
             did
             exercise
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             against
             the
             obtruders
             of
             Circumcision
             ,
             and
             whether
             their
             rebuking
             of
             them
             does
             argue
             the
             Affirmative
             .
             
               page
               .
               15.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               4.
               
            
             Of
             the
             Dogmaticall
             power
             of
             Synods
             :
             And
             of
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             to
             determine
             matters
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             if
             ability
             serve
             thereto
             .
             
               page
               .
               21.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               5.
               
            
             Againe
             of
             that
             Assembly
             Acts.
             15.
             whether
             their
             rebuking
             the
             false
             teachers
             do
             prove
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             excommunication
             in
             Synods
             :
             and
             whether
             preaching
             do
             prove
             the
             Assembly
             where
             it
             is
             ,
             to
             be
             a
             Church
             .
             
               page
               .
               24.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               6.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             be
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ;
             and
             of
             the
             dependance
             of
             the
             Synagogues
             upon
             the
             Synedrion
             at
             Ierusalem
             .
             
               page
               .
               30.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               7.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             lawfulnesse
             or
             necessity
             of
             Appeales
             doe
             prove
             a
             superiority
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             of
             sundry
             sayings
             of
             our
             Author
             which
             seeme
             to
             interfere
             .
             
               page
               .
               39.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               8.
               
            
             Whether
             
               Antioch
               Acts.
            
             15.
             had
             right
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             controversie
             amongst
             
             themselves
             ,
             if
             they
             had
             bin
             able
             ,
             and
             whether
             their
             sending
             to
             Jerusalem
             for
             helpe
             ,
             or
             their
             knowledge
             that
             other
             Churches
             were
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             evill
             ,
             or
             the
             party
             among
             themselves
             who
             were
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             do
             prove
             the
             contrary
             .
             And
             of
             Supremacy
             of
             power
             in
             Congregations
             .
             
               page
               .
               49.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               9.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             or
             the
             Presbyteriall
             do
             make
             the
             Gospel
             more
             defective
             ,
             then
             the
             Law
             of
             Excommunication
             by
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             onely
             three
             Elders
             ,
             and
             of
             doing
             things
             suddenly
             .
             
               page
               .
               66.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               10.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             necessity
             of
             discipline
             be
             greater
             then
             of
             Sacraments
             :
             and
             whether
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             may
             not
             exercise
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             one
             that
             hath
             none
             ;
             and
             whether
             a
             man
             may
             take
             on
             him
             the
             whole
             Minestry
             ,
             having
             no
             outward
             calling
             thereto
             ;
             and
             may
             not
             as
             well
             take
             on
             him
             one
             act
             of
             baptising
             or
             ministring
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             .
             
               page
               .
               75.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               11.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             flowing
             immediately
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             doe
             not
             agree
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             none
             ;
             and
             whether
             otherwise
             neighbouring
             Churches
             be
             not
             a
             losse
             .
             And
             whether
             pretence
             of
             male-administration
             be
             a
             sufficient
             reason
             for
             neighbouring
             Churches
             to
             deprive
             a
             Congregation
             of
             its
             power
             .
             
               page
               .
               93
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               12.
               
            
             Whether
             it
             be
             against
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             be
             Iudge
             ,
             and
             whether
             
               Mr
               Rutherford
            
             can
             safely
             say
             that
             none
             of
             them
             do
             so
             teach
             ;
             and
             whether
             this
             saying
             ,
             that
             parties
             may
             not
             be
             Iudges
             ,
             do
             make
             against
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             any
             more
             then
             in
             a
             Generall
             or
             Nationall
             Councell
             .
             
               page
               .
               104.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               13.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Churches
             at
             Thessalonica
             and
             Jerusalem
             ,
             were
             each
             of
             them
             more
             then
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             of
             
               Mr.
               Baynes
            
             his
             judgement
             therein
             .
             Of
             the
             Assembly
             mentioned
             Luke
             .
             12.
             and
             whether
             our
             Saviour
             did
             there
             speake
             to
             his
             Disciples
             onely
             ,
             or
             to
             all
             the
             people
             also
             .
             
               page
               .
               112.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               14.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Corinth
             was
             one
             Church
             meeting
             distributively
             in
             sundry
             Congregations
             ,
             or
             whether
             it
             was
             onely
             one
             Congregation
             .
             And
             whether
             1
             
               Cor.
               14.
               23.
               
               If
               the
               whole
               Church
               come
               together
               in
               some
               
               place
               ,
               &c.
            
             doe
             make
             for
             sundry
             Congregations
             or
             for
             one
             onely
             .
             
               page
               .
               123.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               15.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Ephesus
             were
             more
             in
             number
             then
             Corinth
             and
             Jerusalem
             ;
             and
             the
             judgement
             of
             
               Mr
               Baynes
            
             whether
             that
             Church
             was
             many
             Congregations
             or
             one
             onely
             .
             
               page
               .
               137.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               16.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             was
             onely
             one
             Congregation
             :
             and
             whether
             Acts.
             14.
             27.
             and
             15.
             30.
             doe
             not
             prove
             the
             affirmative
             .
             
               page
               .
               140.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               17.
               
            
             Whether
             or
             no
             liberties
             are
             given
             by
             Christ
             to
             the
             people
             ,
             but
             women
             must
             exercise
             the
             same
             as
             well
             as
             men
             .
             And
             of
             the
             peoples
             liberty
             about
             ordination
             ,
             or
             the
             calling
             of
             Ministers
             .
             
               page
               .
               146.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               18.
               
            
             Of
             
               Mr
               Rutherfords
            
             report
             of
             Synodicall
             propositions
             in
             New-England
             .
             
               page
               .
               151.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               19.
               
            
             Of
             the
             Appeales
             of
             Luther
             and
             Cranmer
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             generall
             Councels
             denied
             by
             
               Mr.
               Rutherford
            
             ;
             whether
             therein
             be
             doe
             not
             contradict
             himselfe
             ,
             and
             also
             overthrow
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             ,
             and
             Nationall
             Assemblies
             .
             
               page
               .
               153.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               20.
               
            
             If
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             all
             societies
             to
             end
             in
             Monarchies
             ,
             whether
             would
             it
             not
             follow
             that
             the
             Government
             of
             Churches
             must
             so
             end
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             that
             Congregations
             must
             depend
             on
             the
             Government
             of
             Synods
             ,
             because
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             a
             communion
             in
             government
             to
             other
             societies
             .
             And
             whether
             the
             multitude
             of
             Grecians
             and
             Hebrewes
             ,
             who
             ch●se
             the
             seven
             Deacons
             Acts.
             6.
             were
             two
             Congregations
             ,
             or
             one
             onely
             .
             
               page
               .
               159.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               21.
               
            
             Whether
             Congregations
             may
             be
             excommunicated
             by
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             ,
             by
             vertue
             of
             those
             words
             ▪
             
               Mat.
               18.
               
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
            
             as
             containing
             a
             rule
             and
             remedy
             for
             all
             offences
             ,
             or
             at
             the
             least
             a
             Church
             remedy
             for
             the
             offences
             of
             Churches
             and
             Church
             members
             .
             And
             if
             yea
             ,
             whether
             it
             would
             not
             thereupon
             follow
             ,
             that
             a
             Nationall
             Church
             must
             have
             the
             benefit
             of
             this
             remedy
             as
             well
             as
             others
             ;
             and
             so
             have
             no
             independency
             of
             Iurisdiction
             within
             it selfe
             ,
             but
             be
             subject
             to
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             Generall
             Counsels
             ,
             which
             yet
             
               Mr.
               Rutherford
            
             doth
             deny
             .
             
               page
               .
               164.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               22.
               
            
             When
             the
             supreame
             Magistrate
             is
             a
             professed
             enemy
             to
             Religion
             ,
             whether
             
             then
             it
             be
             likely
             and
             usuall
             ,
             that
             the
             greater
             part
             of
             the
             people
             are
             sincerely
             religious
             ,
             and
             whether
             when
             the
             greater
             part
             are
             enemies
             with
             their
             Magistrates
             ,
             it
             be
             then
             the
             duty
             of
             a
             few
             that
             are
             sincere
             ,
             to
             assemble
             in
             a
             Nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             there
             to
             enter
             into
             a
             Nationall
             Covenant
             ,
             and
             also
             to
             injoyne
             the
             same
             unto
             that
             greater
             part
             .
             
               page
               .
               170.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               23.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             word
             Church
             be
             not
             given
             to
             a
             single
             Congregation
             :
             and
             whether
             a
             Congregation
             be
             a
             company
             or
             Church-meeting
             onely
             for
             word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             and
             not
             for
             any
             other
             spirituall
             duties
             :
             and
             whether
             the
             divers
             duties
             ,
             1.
             of
             word
             and
             sacraments
             ,
             2.
             of
             discipline
             ,
             &c.
             must
             needs
             argue
             divers
             Churches
             .
             
               page
               .
               175.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               24
            
             Whether
             those
             children
             of
             
               Israell
               Numb
            
             .
             8.
             10.
             who
             laid
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             were
             Elders
             by
             office
             ,
             and
             as
             so
             considered
             did
             lay
             on
             their
             hands
             .
             And
             whether
             this
             Scripture
             do
             not
             prove
             ,
             that
             where
             there
             are
             no
             Elders
             to
             be
             had
             ,
             there
             some
             principall
             members
             though
             no
             Elders
             by
             office
             ,
             may
             impose
             hands
             on
             Church-Officers
             .
             
               page
               .
               180
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               25.
               
            
             Whether
             a
             Ministers
             calling
             consist
             in
             election
             or
             imposition
             of
             hands
             ,
             and
             whether
             of
             these
             is
             greater
             ,
             and
             whether
             is
             prior
             or
             posterior
             .
             Whether
             1
             
               Tim.
               4.
               14.
               
               Acts.
               6
               2
               ,
               3
               ,
               4.
               
               Acts.
            
             13.
             1
             ,
             2
             ,
             3.
             doe
             prove
             that
             the
             Ministers
             calling
             consists
             in
             imposition
             of
             hands
             by
             the
             Presbeterie
             ,
             and
             that
             such
             imposition
             of
             hands
             is
             not
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             or
             benedictory
             signe
             .
             Also
             whether
             Rom.
             10.
             15.
             do
             prove
             that
             a
             man
             cannot
             be
             a
             Minister
             ,
             except
             some
             Presbyterie
             ordaine
             him
             before
             the
             people
             choose
             him
             ,
             and
             whether
             otherwise
             the
             people
             doe
             send
             a
             Minister
             to
             themselves
             .
             And
             whether
             the
             people
             of
             God
             may
             not
             as
             well
             discerne
             a
             mans
             fitnesse
             to
             be
             ordained
             ,
             as
             his
             fitnesse
             to
             be
             elected
             .
             
               page
               .
               196.
               
            
          
           
             
               Chap.
               26.
               
            
             Whether
             the
             Epistles
             to
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             wherein
             there
             are
             contained
             rules
             of
             direction
             in
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             ,
             do
             prove
             that
             this
             action
             may
             not
             in
             any
             case
             be
             performed
             by
             Non-officers
             ,
             but
             must
             be
             performed
             onely
             by
             Presbyteries
             ;
             and
             whether
             the
             argument
             do
             not
             make
             as
             strongly
             for
             the
             appropriating
             of
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             to
             the
             Prelates
             ,
             as
             to
             the
             Presbyteries
             ,
             and
             do
             not
             as
             well
             exclude
             the
             Presbyteries
             from
             medling
             therein
             ,
             as
             exclude
             the
             people
             .
             
               page
               .
               206.
               
            
          
        
      
    
     
       
         
         
           To
           the
           Christian
           Reader
           .
        
         
           IN
           the
           yeare
           1643.
           there
           came
           forth
           a
           Treatise
           against
           Independency
           ,
           under
           the
           name
           of
           my
           Reverend
           and
           learned
           Brother
           Mr.
           
             Charles
             Herle
          
           ,
           the
           Pastor
           of
           Winwick
           in
           Lancashire
           .
           This
           Treatise
           ,
           because
           it
           seemed
           to
           bee
           written
           with
           such
           a
           Candid
           and
           peaceable
           spirit
           as
           might
           witnesse
           for
           its
           Author
           that
           the
           thing
           he
           aymed
           at
           therein
           was
           meerly
           the
           disquisition
           of
           the
           Truth
           ;
           and
           because
           the
           Author
           thereof
           was
           many
           yeares
           agoe
           of
           my
           Reverend
           brother
           Mr.
           Tompsons
           acquaintance
           and
           mine
           ;
           therefore
           we
           thought
           it
           might
           not
           be
           in
           vaine
           if
           we
           should
           lovingly
           communicate
           to
           the
           learned
           Author
           such
           apprehensions
           of
           ours
           ,
           whereby
           wee
           were
           detained
           from
           concurring
           with
           his
           judgement
           in
           the
           principall
           Question
           disputed
           in
           the
           said
           Treatise
           .
           And
           therefore
           in
           the
           latter
           end
           of
           the
           same
           yeare
           ,
           there
           came
           forth
           a
           small
           Script
           under
           our
           Name
           in
           way
           of
           a
           brotherly
           Answer
           to
           that
           his
           loving
           and
           learned
           Treatise
           .
           Against
           this
           Answer
           Mr.
           
             Samuell
             Rutherford
          
           a
           learned
           writer
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           Scotland
           ,
           hath
           alledged
           and
           published
           many
           Objections
           .
           Exceptions
           ,
           and
           Answers
           ,
           in
           his
           Booke
           entituled
           
             The
             due
             right
             of
             Presbyteries
          
           :
           I
           may
           call
           them
           many
           ,
           because
           in
           that
           Treatise
           of
           his
           there
           are
           no
           lesse
           then
           24
           or
           25
           severall
           places
           ,
           wherein
           he
           bring
           up
           by
           name
           the
           said
           Answer
           ,
           disputing
           against
           sundry
           passages
           therein
           as
           if
           they
           were
           not
           sound
           ;
           which
           passages
           if
           they
           be
           indeed
           erronious
           and
           unsound
           ,
           are
           a
           great
           many
           to
           bee
           contained
           and
           found
           in
           so
           small
           a
           Work
           the
           whole
           Booke
           as
           it
           is
           now
           printed
           containing
           in
           it
           30.
           leaves
           :
           So
           that
           the
           leaves
           in
           the
           Booke
           are
           not
           much
           more
           then
           the
           places
           therein
           which
           this
           learned
           Writer
           doth
           object
           against
           ;
           which
           being
           considered
           ,
           I
           thought
           it
           therefore
           needfull
           to
           peruse
           and
           weigh
           as
           the
           Lord
           should
           helpe
           ,
           the
           severall
           places
           of
           his
           fore-mentioned
           Treatise
           ,
           wherein
           he
           deales
           against
           the
           said
           Answer
           :
           
           And
           having
           so
           done
           ,
           I
           here
           present
           my
           apprehentions
           to
           publike
           view
           ,
           leaving
           the
           Prudent
           and
           judicious
           Reader
           to
           consider
           and
           judge
           ;
           whether
           this
           Reverend
           and
           learned
           Brother
           have
           sufficiently
           overthrowne
           or
           weak'ned
           the
           said
           Answer
           ,
           or
           whether
           the
           same
           doe
           not
           still
           remaine
           agreable
           to
           the
           rule
           of
           Truth
           ,
           notwithstanding
           his
           Objections
           against
           the
           same
           ,
           or
           such
           Answers
           as
           he
           doth
           returne
           to
           severall
           passages
           therein
           .
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             I.
             
          
           
             Of
             Appeales
             from
             particular
             Congregations
             and
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             ;
             and
             whether
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             doctrine
             in
             this
             point
             there
             may
             not
             be
             Appeales
             to
             generall
             Councils
             ,
             whose
             power
             of
             Iu●isdiction
             he
             doth
             yet
             deny
             .
          
           
             FIrst
             of
             all
             in
             his
             Page
             315.
             (
             for
             that
             is
             the
             first
             place
             wherein
             I
             find
             him
             medling
             with
             the
             Answer
             )
             speaking
             of
             doubts
             concerning
             
               Math.
               18.
               17.
               
               Tell
               the
               Church
            
             ;
             In
             a
             9
             .
             th
             Objection
             about
             that
             Scripture
             ,
             besides
             other
             particulers
             hee
             hath
             these
             words
             ,
             
               viz.
               There
               is
               no
               reason
               to
               appeale
               to
               a
               higher
               Iudicature
               because
               the
               inferiour
               may
               erre
               ,
               because
               all
               above
               a
               Congregation
               are
               Courts
               which
               may
               erre
               ;
               Presbyteries
               Provinciall
               ,
               Nationall
               ,
               the
               universall
               Councill
               of
               the
               Catholicke
               Church
               may
               erre
               :
            
             And
             then
             for
             author
             of
             this
             part
             of
             the
             Objection
             hee
             subjoyneth
             my
             Name
             ,
             and
             Answer
             to
             Mr.
             Herle
             ,
             Cap.
             2.
             pag.
             13
             ,
             14.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             When
             hee
             is
             discoursing
             of
             doubts
             concerning
             that
             Scripture
             ,
             
               Math
               18.
               
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
            
             I
             know
             no
             reason
             why
             hee
             should
             bring
             those
             words
             of
             mine
             at
             such
             a
             time
             or
             for
             such
             a
             purpose
             .
             For
             though
             I
             doe
             acknowledge
             that
             I
             wrote
             the
             words
             which
             hee
             hath
             set
             downe
             or
             such
             like
             ,
             in
             the
             place
             by
             him
             alledged
             ;
             yet
             that
             they
             were
             brought
             by
             me
             for
             such
             purpose
             as
             hee
             doth
             report
             
               (
               viz.
            
             For
             the
             cleering
             of
             Doubts
             concerning
             the
             meaning
             of
             
               Math.
               18
               17.
            
             )
             that
             I
             doe
             utterly
             deny
             .
             He
             that
             shall
             looke
             upon
             the
             Chapter
             and
             Pages
             alledged
             ,
             will
             find
             that
             I
             doe
             not
             there
             meddle
             at
             all
             with
             that
             Scripture
             ,
             either
             for
             one
             purpose
             or
             another
             ;
             and
             therefore
             cannot
             be
             truly
             said
             to
             have
             used
             the
             words
             alledged
             ,
             in
             way
             of
             cleering
             Doubts
             concerning
             the
             same
             .
             And
             albeit
             in
             another
             place
             ,
             (
             cap.
             3.
             pag.
             22.
             
               et
               sequ
               .
            
             )
             I
             doe
             purposely
             speake
             to
             that
             Scripture
             ;
             yet
             in
             that
             place
             there
             is
             no
             mention
             at
             all
             of
             the
             words
             by
             him
             alledged
             nor
             of
             any
             such
             like
             ,
             and
             where
             such
             words
             are
             to
             be
             found
             ,
             there
             that
             Scripture
             is
             not
             mentioned
             at
             all
             .
             Now
             who
             knoweth
             not
             that
             a
             man
             may
             be
             much
             wronged
             ,
             when
             the
             words
             which
             hee
             hath
             spoken
             are
             taken
             and
             applyed
             to
             such
             a
             purpose
             ,
             for
             which
             he
             did
             never
             bring
             them
             nor
             intend
             them
             .
          
           
           
             But
             to
             let
             this
             passe
             ,
             let
             us
             heare
             what
             our
             Reverend
             Author
             saith
             against
             the
             words
             alledged
             ,
             in
             his
             Answer
             .
          
           
             The
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             is
             not
             because
             inferiour
             Iudicatures
             may
             erre
             ,
             for
             so
             wee
             might
             appeale
             from
             all
             Iudicatures
             ,
             even
             from
             a
             generall
             Councill
             ,
             for
             it
             may
             erre
             ,
             Pag.
             315.
             lin
             .
             ult
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Is
             not
             this
             the
             very
             same
             that
             was
             said
             in
             the
             Answer
             ,
             Pag.
             13
             ,
             14.
             
             The
             pages
             which
             hee
             here
             undertakes
             to
             answer
             ,
             is
             it
             not
             there
             said
             ;
             
               As
               for
               Classicaticall
               Provinciall
               ,
               and
               Nationall
               Synods
               ,
               there
               is
               none
               of
               these
               but
               those
               Cases
               of
               deficiency
               and
               possibility
               of
               Partiality
               may
               befall
               the
               best
               of
               them
               ;
               and
               therefore
               if
               for
               these
               causes
               the
               single
               Congregations
               may
               not
               be
               indep●ndant
               ,
               but
               there
               may
               be
               Appeales
               from
               them
               ,
               the
               Synods
               being
               subject
               to
               the
               like
               ,
               there
               may
               bee
               liberty
               of
               Appeales
               from
               them
               also
               —
               .
               For
               as
               the
               Congregations
               may
               be
               partiall
               and
               erre
               ,
               so
               we
               suppose
               it
               will
               not
               be
               denyed
               but
               the
               Classis
               may
               erre
               ,
               the
               Provinciall
               Synod
               may
               erre
               ,
               the
               Nationall
               may
               erre
               ,
               yea
               generall
               Councils
               may
               erre
               ;
               and
               so
               by
               this
               reason
               not
               Synods
               nor
               generall
               Councils
               may
               have
               entirenesse
               of
               Jurisdiction
               ,
               but
               there
               may
               be
               liberty
               of
               Appeales
               from
               them
               also
               .
            
             These
             are
             our
             words
             in
             those
             very
             Pages
             which
             here
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             pretends
             to
             Answer
             and
             disprove
             or
             confute
             .
             But
             in
             stead
             of
             a
             Confutation
             we
             see
             we
             have
             nothing
             but
             a
             plaine
             Confession
             or
             affirmation
             of
             his
             owne
             ,
             that
             the
             thing
             is
             even
             so
             as
             was
             affirmed
             by
             us
             before
             .
             Now
             why
             hee
             should
             make
             a
             show
             of
             taking
             away
             or
             weak'ning
             that
             which
             we
             had
             said
             ,
             and
             then
             in
             stead
             of
             accomplishing
             what
             he
             undertakes
             ,
             to
             doe
             no
             more
             but
             onely
             to
             say
             the
             same
             thing
             againe
             which
             wee
             had
             said
             before
             ,
             what
             reason
             I
             say
             he
             had
             for
             this
             I
             know
             not
             ;
             but
             plaine
             it
             is
             that
             for
             the
             particular
             in
             hand
             ,
             the
             Answer
             which
             he
             pretends
             to
             weaken
             ,
             is
             not
             yet
             weakned
             at
             all
             ,
             but
             rather
             strengthned
             and
             confirmed
             by
             his
             apparent
             yeelding
             the
             Cause
             ,
             and
             affirming
             the
             same
             that
             was
             before
             affirmed
             by
             us
             .
          
           
             But
             saith
             hee
             Pag.
             316.
             
             The
             true
             cause
             
               (
               viz.
            
             of
             Appealing
             to
             higher
             Courts
             )
             is
             ,
             1.
             
             Because
             they
             doe
             not
             so
             frequently
             erre
             .
             2.
             
             They
             are
             not
             so
             inclined
             and
             disposed
             to
             erre
             ;
             for
             many
             eyes
             see
             more
             then
             one
             ,
             and
             doe
             more
             seldome
             miscarry
             in
             taking
             up
             the
             right
             Object
             :
             3.
             
             Because
             wee
             conceive
             more
             equality
             and
             lesse
             partiality
             in
             higher
             Courts
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             These
             three
             Reasons
             seeme
             much
             what
             the
             same
             ,
             or
             to
             hang
             one
             upon
             another
             ;
             for
             therefore
             they
             doe
             more
             seldome
             erre
             because
             they
             are
             not
             so
             disposed
             and
             inclined
             to
             erre
             ,
             and
             they
             are
             not
             so
             inclined
             because
             they
             are
             more
             in
             number
             ,
             and
             because
             there
             is
             in
             them
             more
             equality
             and
             lesse
             partiality
             :
             So
             that
             upon
             the
             matter
             it
             is
             but
             one
             reason
             ,
             viz.
             because
             though
             they
             may
             erre
             ,
             yet
             not
             so
             frequently
             and
             likely
             as
             the
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Yet
             (
             be
             they
             three
             Reasons
             ,
             or
             be
             they
             but
             one
             )
             let
             us
             consider
             what
             force
             there
             is
             in
             this
             sa●ing
             to
             take
             away
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             from
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             to
             establish
             the
             necessity
             of
             appealing
             from
             the
             same
             unto
             a
             Synod
             ,
             for
             this
             is
             the
             thing
             that
             should
             be
             cleared
             .
          
           
             First
             of
             all
             it
             may
             be
             a
             question
             ,
             whether
             Synods
             doe
             more
             seldome
             erre
             then
             the
             
             Presbyteries
             of
             Congregations
             :
             And
             the
             reason
             of
             the
             doubt
             is
             ;
             because
             the
             Promise
             of
             the
             presence
             of
             Ch●●st
             is
             not
             made
             meerly
             to
             multitude
             or
             greatnesse
             of
             number
             ;
             but
             if
             they
             bee
             but
             two
             or
             three
             gathered
             together
             in
             his
             Name
             ,
             his
             Promise
             is
             that
             hee
             will
             be
             present
             in
             the
             midst
             of
             them
             ,
             Math.
             18.
             20.
             
             Now
             the
             Promise
             of
             his
             presence
             being
             to
             so
             small
             a
             number
             gathered
             together
             in
             his
             Name
             ,
             why
             may
             not
             a
             Congregation
             and
             its
             Presbyterie
             being
             so
             gathered
             ,
             though
             they
             be
             a
             lesser
             number
             then
             Synods
             and
             Councels
             ;
             yet
             bee
             partakers
             of
             the
             benefit
             of
             this
             Promise
             ,
             for
             the
             preserving
             of
             them
             from
             Error
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             those
             greater
             Assemblies
             ?
             〈…〉
             not
             but
             in
             multitude
             of
             Counsellers
             there
             is
             safety
             :
             nor
             doe
             I
             doubt
             but
             Synods
             and
             Council●
             gathered
             together
             in
             the
             Name
             of
             Christ
             ,
             may
             expect
             the
             per●●●●ance
             of
             this
             Promise
             of
             our
             Saviours
             presence
             :
             But
             the
             thing
             I
             doubt
             of
             is
             this
             ,
             whether
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             of
             Saints
             ,
             furnished
             with
             an
             able
             and
             ●aithfull
             Presbyterie
             (
             for
             of
             such
             onely
             doe
             I
             speake
             )
             may
             not
             by
             vertue
             of
             this
             Promise
             bee
             as
             frequently
             preserved
             fro●
             Error
             as
             those
             greater
             Assemblies
             of
             Synods
             and
             Councils
             ,
             Posito
             that
             the
             Synods
             and
             Counci●ls
             did
             as
             frequently
             come
             together
             as
             the
             Congregation
             doth
             :
             For
             otherwise
             I
             grant
             ,
             the
             Synods
             meeting
             more
             seldome
             may
             erre
             more
             seldome
             :
             but
             let
             the
             Comparison
             be
             equall
             in
             respect
             of
             the
             time
             of
             Assembling
             and
             comming
             together
             ,
             and
             then
             I
             doubt
             whether
             Synods
             〈◊〉
             preserved
             from
             Error
             any
             oftener
             then
             the
             fore-mentioned
             lesser
             Assemblies
             .
          
           
             It
             is
             well
             knowne
             what
             N●zianzen
             said
             of
             Synods
             or
             Councils
             in
             his
             time
             ,
             viz.
             That
             hee
             had
             never
             seene
             good
             and
             happie
             end
             of
             any
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             that
             evils
             were
             not
             so
             much
             redressed
             as
             increased
             thereby
             .
             
               Epist
               .
               ad
               Procop●um
               ,
               Quae
               Est
               numere
               42.
               
               Referr
               .
               Whitak
               De
               Concill
               .
               Q.
               1.
               cap.
            
             3.
             
             True
             it
             is
             ,
             Nazianzen
             lived
             as
             Dr.
             Whi●●●
             observeth
             ,
             
               Pessimis
               &
               turbulentissimia
               Ecclesiae
               Temporibus
            
             ,
             in
             very
             corrupt
             and
             troublesome
             Titues
             ,
             when
             by
             reason
             that
             Valens
             the
             Emperour
             was
             averse
             from
             the
             Truth
             ,
             H●retickes
             much
             prevailed
             and
             Corruptions
             greatly
             increased
             ;
             and
             this
             might
             make
             the
             good
             man
             something
             more
             to
             dislike
             all
             Councils
             then
             there
             was
             cause
             .
             Neverthelesse
             his
             words
             doe
             apparently
             witnesse
             ,
             that
             in
             his
             time
             Synods
             and
             Councils
             did
             not
             seldome
             erre
             but
             very
             often
             ;
             so
             that
             hee
             for
             his
             part
             had
             never
             seene
             good
             that
             had
             come
             by
             any
             of
             them
             .
             Then
             which
             saying
             I
             suppose
             one
             would
             not
             speake
             more
             hardly
             of
             a
             particular
             Congregation
             and
             its
             Presbyterie
             ;
             and
             therefore
             by
             this
             testimony
             of
             his
             my
             doubt
             is
             increased
             ;
             whether
             the
             matter
             be
             in
             〈…〉
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             doth
             say
             ,
             viz.
             That
             Synods
             and
             Councils
             doe
             
               Rariùs
               erra●●
            
             ,
             more
             seldome
             erre
             then
             such
             a
             particular
             Congregation
             as
             here
             I
             am
             speaking
             of
             .
          
           
             But
             suppose
             it
             were
             so
             as
             hee
             doth
             affirme
             (
             and
             I
             will
             not
             deny
             it
             ,
             onely
             as
             I
             said
             I
             doubt
             of
             it
             )
             yet
             I
             doe
             not
             see
             what
             great
             matter
             hee
             can
             gaine
             thereby
             for
             the
             furthering
             of
             his
             purpose
             ,
             that
             there
             must
             be
             liberty
             of
             Appeales
             from
             particular
             Congregations
             unto
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             ,
             as
             unto
             higher
             Courts
             .
             For
             if
             this
             be
             the
             reason
             〈◊〉
             such
             Appeales
             ,
             
               because
               such
               Assemblies
               doe
               more
               seldome
               erre
               ,
               because
               many
               eyes
               doe
               see
               more
               ,
               and
               doe
               more
               seldome
               miscary
               in
               taking
               up
               the
               right
               object
            
             ;
             Then
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             the
             greatest
             Assemblies
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             as
             they
             have
             the
             most
             eyes
             ,
             doe
             of
             all
             others
             most
             seldome
             erre
             ,
             and
             so
             to
             them
             there
             must
             bee
             the
             most
             Appeales
             .
             For
             the
             learned
             Author
             well
             knowes
             ,
             
               à
               quatenùs
               ad
               Omni●
               valet
               consequentia
               .
            
             And
             so
             by
             this
             meanes
             the
             true
             cause
             and
             reason
             of
             Appeales
             lying
             (
             according
             to
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             apprehension
             )
             in
             the
             rarenesse
             and
             
             seldomnesse
             of
             erring
             in
             such
             Assemblies
             to
             whom
             appeales
             are
             made
             ,
             and
             the
             cause
             of
             this
             seldomnesse
             of
             Erring
             lying
             in
             the
             multitude
             and
             great
             number
             of
             eyes
             in
             such
             Assemblies
             ,
             it
             must
             needs
             thereupon
             follow
             ,
             that
             Vniversall
             or
             generall
             Councils
             as
             having
             in
             them
             the
             most
             eyes
             ,
             are
             the
             Assemblies
             that
             doe
             most
             seldome
             erre
             ,
             and
             so
             un●o
             them
             there
             must
             be
             most
             Appeales
             .
             Which
             if
             it
             be
             gran●ed
             ,
             the
             Classicall
             ,
             〈◊〉
             ,
             and
             Nationall
             Synods
             ,
             are
             all
             by
             this
             meanes
             deprived
             and
             stri●t
             of
             〈◊〉
             of
             ●●●●diction
             as
             well
             as
             the
             particular
             Congregations
             ,
             the
             Synods
             by
             〈◊〉
             to
             generall
             Councils
             ,
             as
             to
             those
             that
             doe
             
               ra●iùs
               c●rare
            
             ,
             aswell
             as
             the
             〈…〉
             appeales
             unto
             the
             Synods
             :
             And
             so
             thera
             must
             be
             no
             entirenesse
             of
             〈…〉
             onely
             in
             the
             generall
             Councils
             ,
             but
             from
             all
             other
             Synods
             there
             must
             〈◊〉
             liberty
             of
             Appeales
             ,
             aswell
             as
             from
             the
             Congregation
             .
             This
             Consequence
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             doth
             unavoidably
             follow
             upon
             that
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             lay
             undowne
             as
             the
             cause
             of
             Appealing
             from
             a
             particular
             Congregation
             :
             and
             so
             ou●
             Brethren
             by
             this
             meanes
             have
             spun
             a
             fine
             thred
             ,
             drawing
             forth
             a
             Conclusion
             which
             is
             every
             what
             as
             prejudiciall
             to
             their
             owne
             Cause
             as
             to
             ours
             .
          
           
             If
             any
             aske
             why
             may
             not
             this
             Consequence
             be
             owned
             ?
             Why
             may
             wee
             not
             say
             ,
             there
             must
             bee
             liberty
             of
             Appeales
             from
             all
             Synods
             and
             Presbyteries
             ,
             except
             onely
             the
             generall
             Councill
             ?
             The
             Answer
             is
             ,
             th●t
             wee
             may
             not
             so
             say
             ;
             because
             then
             Causes
             would
             be
             too
             long
             depending
             a●ore
             they
             could
             come
             to
             issue
             ,
             yea
             perhaps
             would
             never
             come
             to
             issue
             as
             long
             as
             this
             world
             shall
             endure
             :
             For
             by
             this
             Rule
             they
             may
             by
             Appeales
             upon
             appeales
             be
             protracted
             untill
             they
             be
             brought
             to
             a
             generall
             Councill
             to
             be
             determined
             there
             .
             Now
             as
             there
             hath
             not
             beene
             any
             such
             Councill
             for
             many
             Ages
             by-past
             ,
             so
             it
             is
             very
             uncertaine
             when
             there
             will
             be
             one
             assembled
             ,
             whether
             ever
             or
             never
             whilst
             this
             world
             stands
             .
             But
             wee
             thinke
             
               Christ
               Jesus
            
             hath
             provided
             better
             for
             his
             Church
             then
             so
             ,
             and
             hath
             not
             appointed
             such
             a
             necessitie
             of
             Appeales
             upon
             appeales
             ,
             but
             that
             Causes
             may
             bee
             determined
             afore
             any
             generall
             Councill
             can
             be
             assembled
             .
          
           
             Besides
             ,
             if
             such
             Assemblies
             might
             be
             frequently
             attained
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             not
             yet
             cleered
             ,
             that
             when
             they
             are
             assembled
             they
             have
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             at
             all
             ;
             but
             onely
             a
             Doctrinall
             power
             to
             cleare
             up
             the
             Rule
             ,
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             remaining
             in
             some
             other
             Assembly
             .
             Sure
             it
             is
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             thus
             teacheth
             expresly
             ,
             for
             his
             words
             are
             these
             ;
             
               Verily
               I
               professe
               I
               cannot
               see
               what
               power
               of
               Jurisdiction
               to
               Censure
               scandals
               can
               be
               in
               a
               generall
               Councill
               ;
               there
               may
               bee
               some
               meerly
               Doctrinall
               power
               if
               such
               a
               Councill
               could
               be
               had
               ,
               and
               that
               is
               all
               .
            
             Due
             Right
             ,
             &c.
             pag.
             482.
             and
             in
             the
             end
             of
             the
             same
             Page
             and
             beginning
             of
             the
             next
             ,
             speaking
             of
             those
             words
             ,
             
               Math.
               18.
               
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
            
             hee
             saith
             thus
             ;
             
               Because
               ordinary
               Communion
               faileth
               when
               you
               goe
               higher
               then
               a
               Nationall
               Church
               ,
               and
               Christ's
               way
               supposeth
               an
               ordinary
               Communion
               —
               ;
               therefore
               I
               deny
               that
               this
               remedy
               is
               needfull
               in
               any
               Church
               above
               a
               Nationall
               Church
               .
            
             By
             which
             sayings
             it
             appeareth
             ,
             that
             he
             counts
             Christs
             remedy
             to
             Censure
             Scandals
             not
             needfull
             in
             a
             generall
             Councill
             ,
             yea
             and
             hee
             seriously
             professeth
             ,
             that
             hee
             cannot
             see
             that
             such
             a
             Councill
             if
             it
             could
             bee
             had
             ,
             hath
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             at
             all
             to
             censure
             Scandals
             .
             Which
             being
             so
             ,
             it
             must
             needs
             follow
             ,
             that
             Scandals
             must
             be
             censured
             ,
             and
             Causes
             ended
             somewhere
             else
             ,
             afore
             they
             can
             
             come
             〈◊〉
             such
             end
             to
             a
             generall
             Councill
             .
             And
             if
             this
             bee
             so
             ,
             then
             how
             can
             that
             stand
             which
             here
             hee
             affirmeth
             ,
             that
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appealing
             to
             Synods
             in
             this
             ;
             because
             they
             doe
             
               rariùs
               errare
            
             ,
             more
             seldome
             Erre
             ,
             then
             the
             particuler
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             having
             many
             eyes
             doe
             more
             seldome
             miscarry
             in
             taking
             up
             the
             right
             object
             :
             For
             this
             Cause
             is
             most
             properly
             appliable
             to
             the
             generall
             Councill
             ,
             unto
             whom
             notwithstanding
             hee
             denies
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             to
             censure
             Scandals
             ;
             and
             if
             they
             h●ve
             no
             such
             Power
             ,
             there
             can
             bee
             no
             Appeales
             to
             them
             for
             such
             purpose
             and
             end
             .
          
           
             And
             how
             these
             things
             can
             stand
             toget●er
             ,
             That
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             to
             such
             or
             such
             Assemlies
             doth
             he
             in
             this
             ,
             that
             they
             doe
             more
             seldome
             erre
             as
             having
             many
             eyes
             ,
             and
             yet
             that
             to
             generall
             Councils
             there
             should
             be
             no
             Appeales
             at
             all
             ,
             as
             having
             no
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             though
             of
             all
             others
             this
             Cause
             be
             most
             properly
             ●ound
             in
             them
             ,
             I
             for
             my
             part
             doe
             confesse
             I
             doe
             not
             understand
             .
          
           
             If
             any
             shall
             say
             ,
             that
             as
             Mr.
             Ruthe●ford
             doth
             make
             that
             which
             I
             have
             mentioned
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             ,
             so
             hee
             doth
             also
             hold
             a
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             even
             in
             generall
             Councils
             ;
             and
             shall
             therefore
             doubt
             whether
             I
             doe
             truly
             report
             him
             〈◊〉
             touch
             the
             contrary
             ,
             I
             would
             wish
             no
             more
             favour
             of
             such
             a
             one
             but
             to
             peruse
             the
             places
             which
             I
             have
             here
             above
             alledged
             ,
             and
             then
             I
             hope
             hee
             will
             ●nd
             the
             words
             to
             bee
             no
             otherwise
             ,
             but
             as
             I
             have
             set
             them
             downe
             .
          
           
             I
             know
             indeed
             there
             are
             some
             places
             in
             him
             which
             doe
             looke
             another
             way
             ;
             as
             that
             where
             hee
             saith
             ,
             
               It
               is
               by
               accident
               and
               not
               through
               want
               of
               inuat●
               and
               intrinsecall
               power
               ,
               that
               the
               Court
               of
               a
               Catholick
               Councill
               can
               not
               in
               an
               ordinary
               and
               constant
               way
               exercise
               that
               Power
               which
               now
               we
               are
               speaking
               of
            
             Due
             Right
             ,
             
               page
               308.
               
               And
               a
               little
               after
               hee
               saith
               ,
               He
               seeth
               nothing
               to
               prove
               that
               a
               generall
               Councill
               hath
               not
               power
               to
               Excommunicate
               a
               Nationall
               Church
               .
               Yea
               and
               further
               ,
               that
               if
               there
               were
               a
               generall
               Councill
               at
               this
               d●y
               ,
               they
               might
               lawfully
               in
               a
               Iuridicall
               way
               (
               so
               are
               his
               words
               )
               doe
               that
               to
               the
               faction
               of
               Romish
               pretended
               Catholicks
            
             ;
             which
             hee
             saith
             ,
             is
             Excommunication
             in
             the
             essence
             and
             substance
             of
             th●
             Act.
             And
             in
             the
             Page
             next
             ensuing
             he
             saith
             ,
             This
             of
             our
             Saviour
             ,
             
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
               is
               necessarily
               to
               be
               applyed
               to
               all
               Churches
               and
               Courts
               of
               Christ
               ,
               even
               to
               a
               Catholick
               Councill
               .
            
             These
             Places
             I
             confesse
             doe
             seeme
             to
             me
             not
             very
             well
             to
             agree
             with
             the
             either
             afore
             alledged
             :
             For
             in
             the
             one
             he
             plainly
             affirmes
             ,
             there
             is
             in
             generall
             Councils
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             to
             censure
             Scanda●s
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             other
             hee
             doth
             as
             plainly
             deny
             the
             same
             .
             But
             it
             is
             the
             former
             places
             and
             not
             these
             latter
             which
             I
             doe
             stand
             upon
             ;
             in
             which
             former
             as
             I
             conceive
             him
             to
             hold
             the
             truth
             ,
             so
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             that
             which
             hee
             saith
             in
             this
             place
             wee
             have
             in
             hand
             about
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appealing
             from
             Congregations
             to
             Synods
             is
             much
             infirmed
             thereby
             .
             For
             how
             can
             that
             be
             taken
             to
             be
             the
             true
             cause
             of
             Appeales
             ,
             which
             is
             most
             properly
             found
             in
             such
             Assemblies
             (
             I
             me●ne
             in
             generall
             Councils
             )
             unto
             whom
             as
             having
             no
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             there
             must
             be
             no
             ap●eales
             at
             all
             ?
          
           
             To
             conclude
             this
             Chapter
             :
             When
             wee
             doe
             enquire
             about
             Power
             of
             appealing
             ,
             and
             unto
             what
             Courts
             appeales
             must
             be
             brought
             ,
             our
             way
             is
             not
             to
             seeke
             for
             such
             ●ourts
             as
             cannot
             Erre
             ,
             for
             such
             wee
             shall
             never
             find
             ;
             nor
             for
             such
             as
             we
             thinke
             will
             more
             seldome
             erre
             ,
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             have
             it
             ;
             for
             that
             Rule
             is
             also
             
             subject
             to
             much
             uncertainty
             and
             exception
             ,
             as
             hath
             beene
             already
             declared
             .
             But
             the
             best
             way
             is
             to
             enquire
             where
             the
             Lord
             JESVS
             hath
             placed
             the
             Power
             of
             the
             last
             and
             finall
             censuring
             and
             determining
             of
             Causes
             ,
             and
             when
             that
             is
             found
             therewith
             to
             rest
             contented
             .
             And
             as
             for
             Synods
             and
             Councils
             ,
             it
             is
             neither
             their
             not
             Erring
             ,
             nor
             their
             seldome
             erring
             that
             can
             bee
             a
             suffi●ient
             argument
             to
             place
             the
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             them
             ;
             unlesse
             the
             Lord
             Iesus
             had
             so
             appointed
             and
             ordained
             ,
             which
             yet
             doth
             not
             appeare
             .
          
           
             And
             so
             much
             for
             this
             first
             place
             ,
             wherein
             our
             Brother
             deales
             against
             the
             Answer
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             II.
             
          
           
             Of
             the
             Power
             of
             Synods
             to
             give
             advice
             and
             Counsell
             ,
             and
             whether
             from
             thence
             it
             doth
             follow
             ,
             that
             they
             have
             no
             power
             to
             Command
             .
          
           
             
               THe
               next
               place
               wherein
               I
               find
               this
               learned
               Author
               dealing
               with
               the
               Answer
               ,
               is
               in
               his
               Page
               381.
               
               Where
               having
               in
               the
               Close
               of
               a
               4
               .
               th
               Objection
               in
               the
               prece●ent
               Page
               brought
               in
               these
               words
               ,
            
             viz.
             A
             Synod
             in
             dogmaticall
             Power
             ariseth
             no
             higher
             then
             this
             
               (
               viz.
            
             a
             man
             ,
             or
             a
             single
             Congregation
             )
             as
             that
             a
             divine
             Institution
             doth
             fall
             upon
             it
             .
             Amongst
             other
             things
             in
             his
             Answer
             to
             the
             Objection
             hee
             saith
             thus
             ,
             viz.
             I
             would
             know
             if
             a
             Synods
             dogmaticall
             Power
             be
             above
             the
             power
             of
             single
             Congregations
             ;
             I
             think
             saith
             he
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             by
             our
             Brethrens
             tenents
             ;
             for
             they
             say
             expressely
             that
             every
             particular
             Church
             hath
             right
             ,
             jus
             ,
             to
             decide
             Dogmaticall
             points
             :
             This
             right
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             had
             (
             Act.
             15
             )
             an●
             laboured
             to
             end
             that
             Controversie
             within
             her selfe
             ,
             which
             sheweth
             that
             they
             had
             Right
             an●
             Power
             :
             but
             they
             had
             not
             Ability
             ;
             and
             therefore
             in
             that
             case
             they
             seeke
             for
             Counsell
             ,
             light
             ,
             and
             advise
             from
             other
             Churches
             —
             .
             
               And
               then
               amongst
               other
               places
               for
               Proofe
               that
               this
               is
               our
               Tenent
               ,
               hee
               alledgeth
               in
               his
               margent
               my
               Name
               and
               Mr.
            
             Tompson●
             
               in
               the
               Answer
               to
               Mr.
            
             Herle
             ,
             
               Chap.
               2.
               and
               after
               the
               words
               above
               rehearsed
               and
               some
               others
               to
               the
               like
               purpose
               ,
               hee
               inferreth
               thus
               :
            
             Hence
             saith
             hee
             ,
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             is
             onely
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             To
             omit
             (
             at
             least
             for
             this
             time
             )
             the
             other
             Places
             alledged
             in
             his
             margent
             ,
             and
             not
             to
             examine
             how
             farre
             his
             Answer
             reacheth
             to
             satisfie
             the
             Objection
             ,
             as
             himselfe
             hath
             propounded
             it
             ;
             I
             will
             onely
             consider
             of
             such
             things
             as
             doe
             directly
             Concerne
             the
             answer
             ,
             for
             that
             is
             the
             scope
             ●ayme
             at
             ,
             and
             I
             endeavour
             to
             keepe
             close
             thereto
             .
          
           
             First
             therefore
             I
             have
             this
             to
             say
             ,
             That
             for
             the
             Dogmaticall
             power
             of
             Synods
             above
             Congregations
             ,
             for
             the
             Right
             and
             Power
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             in
             particular
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             Power
             of
             Synods
             to
             bee
             onely
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             ,
             there
             is
             not
             in
             the
             Chapter
             alledged
             so
             much
             as
             one
             word
             about
             any
             one
             of
             those
             
             〈◊〉
             either
             one
             way
             or
             another
             ;
             so
             that
             I
             cannot
             but
             marvell
             why
             this
             reverend
             Brother
             should
             alledge
             that
             Chapter
             for
             such
             a
             purpose
             .
          
           
             2.
             
             Although
             in
             another
             place
             of
             the
             Answer
             ,
             viz.
             Page
             4●
             .
             there
             be
             words
             to
             the
             like
             purpose
             with
             those
             which
             our
             Author
             here
             sets
             downe
             concerning
             Antioch
             ,
             yet
             for
             the
             Conclusion
             and
             consequence
             which
             hee
             would
             thence
             inferre
             ,
             viz.
             That
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             is
             onely
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advice
             ,
             as
             there
             is
             nothing
             said
             ●
             the
             Chapter
             by
             him
             alledged
             that
             lookes
             that
             way
             ,
             so
             there
             is
             nothing
             in
             the
             Page
             or
             Chapter
             where
             A●tioch
             is
             spoken
             of
             ,
             nor
             any
             where
             else
             in
             all
             th●
             Booke
             〈◊〉
             as
             I
             doe
             remember
             ,
             that
             can
             any
             way
             serve
             for
             the
             proving
             of
             such
             a
             Conclusion
             and
             tenent
             to
             bee
             ours
             .
             The
             Author
             alledgeth
             no
             place
             that
             hath
             such
             a
             conclusion
             in
             it
             ,
             either
             in
             direct
             words
             or
             by
             just
             consequence
             :
             and
             I
             professe
             that
             for
             my
             part
             I
             doe
             not
             know
             of
             any
             such
             .
          
           
             3.
             
             But
             this
             I
             doe
             know
             that
             the
             direct
             contrary
             to
             what
             here
             is
             expressed
             is
             plainly
             to
             be
             found
             in
             another
             place
             of
             the
             said
             answer
             ,
             viz.
             Pag.
             7.
             where
             there
             are
             these
             words
             ,
             
               viz.
               If
               a
               Synod
               may
               b●
               called
               a
               Church
               ,
               and
               if
               Power
               by
               disputation
               and
               disquisition
               to
               cleare
               up
               the
               Rule
               ,
               and
               then
               to
               Command
               Obedience
               thereto
               ,
               may
               be
               called
               Government
               ,
               then
               they
            
             (
             viz.
             
               the
               Independants
               as
               they
               are
               called
               )
               doe
               admit
               a
               Synod
               to
               bee
               a
               governing
               Church
               ,
               for
               the
               Power
               here
               m●ntioned
               they
               doe
               allow
               unto
               Synods
               .
            
             Now
             the
             Power
             here
             mentioned
             being
             ,
             as
             we
             see
             ,
             not
             onely
             a
             Power
             by
             disputation
             to
             cleare
             up
             the
             Rule
             ,
             but
             also
             a
             Power
             to
             Command
             obedience
             thereto
             ,
             they
             allowing
             this
             power
             unto
             Synods
             as
             they
             doe
             exprestly
             say
             that
             they
             doe
             ;
             I
             know
             not
             why
             our
             Brother
             should
             say
             ,
             that
             they
             allow
             unto
             Synods
             onely
             a
             Power
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advice
             .
             For
             power
             to
             Command
             Obedience
             ,
             and
             power
             onely
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advice
             ,
             I
             suppose
             are
             not
             the
             same
             ;
             and
             if
             they
             be
             not
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             this
             report
             in
             this
             particuler
             can
             bee
             made
             good
             .
             To
             me
             it
             seemes
             apparent
             and
             undenyable
             ,
             that
             they
             who
             have
             Power
             to
             Command
             Obedience
             ,
             have
             more
             then
             only
             a
             Power
             to
             counsell
             and
             advise
             ;
             and
             they
             who
             have
             onely
             this
             latter
             have
             no
             Power
             of
             the
             ●orme●
             at
             all
             .
             Even
             interiours
             ,
             as
             Naamans
             servants
             ,
             2
             King.
             5.
             have
             power
             to
             counsell
             and
             advise
             their
             Master
             ,
             and
             yet
             I
             hope
             they
             had
             no
             Power
             to
             Command
             their
             Master
             to
             yeeld
             Obedience
             .
          
           
             4
             Suppose
             it
             bee
             true
             (
             which
             I
             deny
             not
             )
             that
             the
             Answer
             in
             another
             place
             ,
             (
             ●hough
             not
             in
             the
             place
             by
             him
             alledged
             )
             doth
             say
             ,
             that
             A●tioch
             had
             right
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             matter
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             if
             ability
             had
             served
             thereto
             ,
             and
             that
             by
             reason
             of
             Distention
             and
             through
             want
             of
             Light
             they
             were
             forced
             to
             send
             out
             to
             ●●rusalem
             for
             helpe
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             follow
             thereupon
             that
             his
             assembly
             at
             Ierusalem
             had
             no
             more
             Power
             but
             onely
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             ?
             (
             which
             is
             the
             Conclusion
             which
             hee
             endeavours
             to
             draw
             ●●om
             that
             which
             is
             said
             concerning
             Antioch
             )
             I
             ●●●ceive
             there
             is
             no
             necessity
             at
             all
             of
             such
             a
             consequence
             .
          
           
             For
             whence
             must
             the
             same
             〈◊〉
             I
             suppose
             from
             one
             of
             these
             two
             ,
             either
             from
             this
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             is
             supposed
             and
             said
             to
             have
             had
             Right
             within
             her selfe
             ,
             or
             else
             from
             this
             that
             Jerusalem
             gives
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             .
             Any
             other
             colour
             for
             concluding
             such
             a
             Conseptionce
             as
             is
             in
             question
             ,
             the
             Answer
             affords
             none
             that
             I
             know
             of
             .
             〈◊〉
             for
             these
             two
             Particulers
             here
             mentioned
             ,
             they
             are
             both
             insufficient
             for
             such
             〈◊〉
             purpose
             .
          
           
           
             For
             what
             should
             hinder
             but
             there
             bee
             more
             Power
             in
             the
             Synod
             of
             ●erusalem
             towards
             them
             of
             Antioch
             then
             only
             by
             way
             of
             counsell
             and
             advise
             ,
             even
             power
             to
             command
             them
             to
             do
             what
             is
             their
             duty
             ,
             though
             Antioch
             have
             right
             to
             end
             the
             matter
             themselves
             ,
             if
             ability
             serves
             thereto
             ?
             Doth
             right
             in
             one
             Person
             or
             Assembly
             to
             end
             their
             ma●●ers
             if
             they
             be
             able
             ,
             extempt
             them
             from
             being
             under
             the
             command
             of
             others
             ?
             Hoshoulders
             have
             right
             to
             governe
             and
             order
             their
             families
             ,
             if
             so
             be
             that
             they
             be
             able
             :
             doth
             it
             follow
             therefore
             that
             Superiors
             in
             Church
             or
             civill
             state
             have
             no
             power
             to
             command
             housholders
             to
             do
             their
             duty
             herein
             ,
             but
             only
             to
             give
             counsell
             and
             advise
             ?
             Or
             if
             housholdere
             have
             such
             right
             ,
             doth
             it
             follow
             that
             therefore
             they
             are
             under
             no
             command
             ,
             in
             Church
             and
             Common-wealth
             ?
             I
             suppose
             it
             will
             not
             follow
             at
             all
             .
             Or
             shall
             we
             say
             ,
             that
             Classes
             and
             Provinciall
             Synods
             have
             no
             right
             to
             end
             their
             own
             matters
             within
             themselves
             ,
             if
             a
             Nationall
             Synod
             have
             power
             to
             command
             them
             ?
             Or
             if
             they
             have
             such
             right
             ,
             shall
             we
             therefore
             say
             they
             are
             not
             under
             the
             command
             of
             the
             Nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             Nationall
             Synod
             hath
             no
             power
             over
             them
             but
             only
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             ?
             Wee
             suppose
             Master
             Rutherford
             will
             not
             say
             so
             :
             and
             yet
             he
             might
             as
             well
             say
             it
             ,
             as
             say
             as
             hee
             he
             doth
             ,
             that
             because
             Antioch
             hath
             right
             to
             ●nd
             her
             own
             matter
             if
             they
             be
             able
             ,
             therefore
             a
             Synod
             hath
             no
             power
             but
             only
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             .
          
           
             And
             though
             the
             Synod
             is
             to
             give
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             (
             which
             was
             the
             other
             ground
             whereon
             the
             conclusier
             afore
             mentioned
             seemes
             to
             be
             built
             )
             yet
             neither
             will
             Master
             Rutherford
             his
             conclus●on
             ,
             that
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             is
             only
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             ,
             follow
             from
             thence
             at
             all
             .
             For
             who
             knoweth
             not
             that
             .
             Counsell
             and
             advise
             may
             be
             administred
             and
             given
             by
             them
             ,
             who
             have
             also
             power
             to
             command
             ?
             Not
             every
             one
             indeed
             as
             may
             advise
             and
             Counsell
             ,
             may
             forth
             with
             command
             and
             enjoyne
             :
             Neverthelesse
             ,
             Counsell
             and
             Command
             are
             not
             so
             repugnant
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             who
             may
             Command
             ,
             may
             also
             advise
             .
             Paul
             had
             power
             to
             Command
             and
             enjoyne
             Phyl●mon
             to
             do
             what
             was
             convenient
             ,
             and
             yet
             for
             loves
             sake
             would
             rather
             beseech
             him
             ,
             Philem.
             8.
             9.
             
             The
             Lord
             Iesus
             to
             doubt
             hath
             absolute
             authority
             to
             Command
             ,
             and
             yet
             we
             find
             him
             sometimes
             speaking
             to
             the
             Sons
             of
             men
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             or
             advise
             .
             
               Revel
               .
               3.
               
               ●8
               .
               I
               Counsell
               thee
               to
               buy
               of
               me
               Gold
               ,
               that
               thou
               mayest
               he
               rich
               ,
               &c.
            
             shall
             we
             now
             inferre
             from
             hence
             ,
             that
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Lord
             Iesus
             is
             only
             by
             way
             of
             Counsell
             aud
             advise
             ,
             and
             that
             his
             power
             cannot
             amount
             to
             the
             nature
             of
             a
             Command
             ?
             I
             suppose
             we
             would
             be
             afraid
             and
             abhorre
             to
             deduce
             such
             a
             consequence
             .
             And
             therefore
             ,
             though
             a
             Synod
             may
             advise
             ,
             yet
             their
             power
             to
             Command
             (
             which
             is
             more
             then
             meere
             Counsell
             and
             aduise
             )
             is
             not
             from
             thence
             concluded
             to
             be
             Null
             .
             And
             so
             much
             for
             Master
             Rutherford
             his
             second
             place
             ,
             wherein
             he
             deales
             against
             the
             answer
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             III.
             
          
           
             Of
             the
             Assembly
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             
             Whether
             they
             did
             exercise
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             against
             the
             obtruders
             of
             Circumcision
             ,
             and
             whether
             their
             rebuking
             of
             them
             do
             argue
             the
             Affirmative
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               his
               page
               388.
               
               He
               laies
               downe
               this
               as
               a
               2d.
               Object
               .
            
             viz.
             That
             there
             is
             no
             censuring
             of
             persons
             for
             Scandals
             ,
             and
             that
             meeting
             ,
             Act
             ,
             15.
             
             Because
             
             there
             is
             nothing
             there
             but
             a
             Doctrinall
             declaration
             of
             the
             falshood
             of
             their
             opinion
             who
             taught
             the
             necessity
             of
             Circumcision
             :
             and
             that
             all
             is
             done
             by
             way
             of
             Doctrine
             and
             by
             power
             of
             the
             Keyes
             of
             knowledge
             ,
             not
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             is
             cleere
             from
             the
             end
             of
             the
             meeting
             ,
             which
             was
             
               verse
               2
               &
               6.
            
             
             To
             consider
             of
             that
             Question
             :
             Consideration
             of
             Questions
             being
             the
             end
             of
             the
             Synod
             ,
             is
             a
             thing
             belonging
             to
             Doctrinall
             Power
             meerely
             .
             
               And
               then
               he
               s●●joyneth
               my
               name
               ,
               and
               in
               the
               Margent
               alledgeth
               the
               answer
               ,
            
             chap.
             1.
             page
             8.
             
          
           
             Ans
             .
             Whereto
             I
             first
             of
             all
             returne
             this
             answer
             .
             First
             ,
             that
             the
             thing
             here
             in
             Question
             being
             about
             the
             power
             of
             that
             meeting
             Acts
             15.
             
             There
             is
             nothing
             in
             the
             place
             alledged
             by
             Master
             Rutherford
             that
             can
             warrant
             him
             to
             frame
             such
             an
             Objection
             under
             Master
             Tompsons
             name
             and
             mine
             ,
             as
             proceeding
             from
             us
             :
             And
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             that
             meeting
             Acts
             15
             ,
             is
             not
             mentioned
             at
             all
             in
             the
             place
             by
             him
             alledged
             ,
             neither
             for
             that
             purpose
             which
             he
             sets
             down
             ,
             nor
             for
             any
             other
             ;
             much
             losse
             is
             the
             Objection
             ours
             in
             Terminis
             .
             Now
             to
             frame
             an
             Objection
             ,
             and
             to
             alledge
             chapter
             and
             page
             for
             proofe
             that
             the
             Objection
             is
             ours
             ,
             when
             as
             neither
             page
             nor
             chapter
             aleadged
             do
             speake
             any
             thing
             at
             all
             of
             that
             matter
             ,
             what
             reason
             can
             be
             given
             for
             this
             I
             know
             not
             .
          
           
             Neverthelesse
             ,
             because
             the
             matter
             contayned
             in
             the
             Objection
             doth
             not
             much
             differ
             from
             my
             apprehension
             and
             judgement
             ,
             and
             something
             in
             the
             answer
             elsewhere
             may
             possibly
             intimate
             such
             a
             thing
             ,
             though
             but
             briefly
             touched
             ,
             I
             will
             therefore
             consider
             of
             what
             he
             saith
             for
             removing
             the
             Objection
             as
             himselfe
             hath
             propounded
             the
             same
             .
          
           
             It
             is
             false
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             no
             censuring
             of
             persons
             here
             ,
             for
             —
             it
             is
             more
             then
             evident
             that
             the
             publike
             Synodicall
             censure
             of
             rebuke
             is
             put
             upon
             those
             who
             held
             and
             urged
             the
             necessity
             of
             Circumcision
             ,
             and
             why
             not
             Excommunication
             also
             in
             case
             of
             obstinacy
             ?
             For
             the
             Synodicall
             censure
             of
             a
             publike
             Synodicall
             rebuke
             is
             only
             gradually
             different
             ,
             not
             specifically
             from
             excommunication
             ,
             &
             both
             must
             proceed
             from
             ou●
             &
             the
             same
             power
             .
             
               So
               then
               the
               summe
               is
               ,
               the
               Synod
               had
               power
               of
               rebuking
               ,
               and
               therefore
               of
               Excommunication
               also
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             Consequence
             is
             not
             cleere
             ,
             for
             who
             knoweth
             not
             that
             there
             may
             be
             power
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             where
             there
             is
             no
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             ?
             Is
             it
             not
             the
             expresse
             Law
             of
             God
             ,
             that
             every
             man
             shall
             plainly
             rebuke
             his
             Neighbour
             and
             not
             suffer
             sin
             upon
             him
             ,
             Levit.
             19.
             17
             ?
             And
             are
             not
             our
             〈◊〉
             words
             as
             plaine
             ,
             if
             thy
             brother
             trespasle
             against
             thee
             rebuke
             him
             ,
             and
             if
             he
             repent
             forgive
             him
             ,
             Luke
             17.
             3
             ?
             Whereby
             it
             is
             evident
             that
             one
             particular
             person
             hath
             power
             by
             the
             Law
             of
             God
             and
             Christ
             to
             put
             a
             rebuke
             upon
             another
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             occasion
             for
             it
             .
             But
             will
             it
             follow
             hereupon
             that
             one
             particular
             Christian
             hath
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             another
             in
             case
             of
             Obstinacy
             ?
             I
             suppose
             Master
             Rutherford
             will
             not
             say
             so
             ;
             and
             yet
             unlesse
             this
             be
             said
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             his
             Consequence
             can
             be
             made
             good
             ,
             that
             if
             a
             Synod
             may
             rebuke
             ,
             they
             may
             Excommunicate
             also
             .
             I
             know
             indeed
             he
             saith
             ,
             the
             Synodicall
             rebuke
             is
             only
             gradually
             different
             from
             Excommunication
             ,
             and
             not
             specifically
             ,
             and
             that
             both
             must
             proceed
             from
             one
             and
             the
             same
             Power
             .
             But
             this
             would
             require
             
             some
             proofe
             ,
             and
             should
             not
             nakedly
             be
             affirmed
             without
             any
             proofe
             at
             all
             .
             For
             of
             it selfe
             it
             is
             not
             evident
             ,
             that
             where
             ●ver
             there
             is
             power
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             there
             is
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             also
             .
             The
             contrary
             I
             suppose
             is
             evident
             from
             that
             which
             hath
             already
             been
             said
             from
             Levit.
             19.
             17.
             and
             Luke
             17.
             3.
             and
             from
             many
             other
             Scriptures
             ,
             and
             reasons
             ,
             which
             shew
             that
             one
             man
             alone
             hath
             power
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             who
             cannot
             for
             that
             be
             concluded
             to
             have
             any
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             .
             I
             know
             the
             learned
             m●n
             is
             copious
             in
             proving
             from
             the
             words
             of
             verse
             24.
             
             
               Certaine
               men
               went
               from
               us
               ,
               and
               have
               troubled
               you
               with
               words
               ,
               subverting
               your
               Soules
               ,
               &c.
               
               That
               this
               Assembly
               doth
               not
               only
               in
               a
               Doctrinall
               way
               confute
               the
               false
               opinion
               and
               Doctrine
               of
               these
               teachers
               of
               Circumcision
               ,
               but
               doth
               also
               rebuke
               them
               for
               another
               fault
               ,
               to
               wit
               ;
               their
               obtruding
               their
               false
               way
               upon
               the
               Soules
               and
               Consciences
               of
               others
               ,
               and
               for
               their
               wilfull
               and
               obstinate
               upholding
               that
               opinion
               and
               raysing
               a
               Schisme
               in
               the
               Church
               .
            
             But
             if
             all
             this
             were
             granted
             his
             purpose
             were
             not
             gained
             thereby
             ,
             unlesse
             he
             would
             prove
             that
             which
             he
             doth
             but
             only
             affirme
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             
               That
               a
               Synodicall
               rebuke
               is
               not
               specifically
               different
               but
               only
               gradually
               from
               Excommunication
               ,
            
             and
             that
             both
             must
             proceed
             from
             the
             same
             power
             ,
             which
             ye●
             he
             hath
             not
             proved
             at
             all
             .
          
           
             But
             saith
             he
             ,
             I
             argue
             thus
             :
             If
             the
             Apostles
             do
             not
             only
             in
             a
             Doctrinall
             way
             refute
             a
             false
             Doctrine
             in
             this
             Synod
             ,
             but
             also
             in
             Church
             way
             and
             by
             a
             Juridicall
             power
             do
             rebuke
             and
             Synodically
             charge
             the
             Authors
             as
             subverters
             of
             Soules
             ,
             and
             Lyers
             ,
             then
             they
             doe
             not
             onely
             use
             a
             meere
             Doctrinall
             power
             in
             this
             Synod
             ,
             but
             also
             a
             Juridicall
             power
             :
             but
             the
             former
             is
             true
             :
             Ergo
             ,
             so
             is
             the
             latter
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             With
             favour
             of
             so
             learned
             a
             man
             ,
             I
             thinke
             this
             kind
             of
             argu●ng
             is
             but
             a
             begging
             of
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             and
             a
             proving
             of
             
               Idem
               per
               Idem
            
             .
             For
             if
             the
             Synod
             did
             not
             only
             in
             a
             Doctrinall
             way
             refute
             a
             false
             Doctrine
             ,
             but
             also
             by
             a
             Iuridicall
             power
             rebuke
             the
             Authors
             of
             it
             ,
             then
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             true
             indeed
             that
             they
             did
             not
             only
             use
             a
             Doctrinall
             power
             ,
             but
             also
             a
             Iuridicall
             power
             ;
             that
             is
             ,
             If
             they
             did
             so
             ,
             they
             did
             so
             :
             if
             they
             did
             use
             such
             power
             ,
             they
             did
             use
             it
             .
             But
             there
             still
             lyes
             the
             question
             ,
             whether
             they
             did
             so
             or
             no
             :
             and
             whether
             they
             did
             use
             such
             power
             or
             not
             ,
             and
             this
             kind
             of
             arguing
             doth
             not
             cleere
             it
             all
             .
             If
             we
             on
             the
             contrary
             should
             argue
             thus
             ,
             if
             this
             Assembly
             did
             not
             put
             forth
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             or
             Discipline
             ,
             but
             only
             in
             a
             Doctrinall
             way
             con●ute
             a
             false
             Doctrine
             and
             rebuke
             the
             Authors
             of
             it
             ,
             then
             they
             did
             onely
             put
             forth
             a
             Doctrinall
             power
             ,
             and
             not
             any
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             one
             of
             farre
             lesse
             abilities
             then
             our
             learned
             Author
             ,
             would
             soone
             espy
             the
             loosenesse
             of
             such
             reasoning
             :
             at
             least
             himselfe
             ,
             we
             doubt
             not
             ,
             would
             soone
             espy
             it
             ,
             for
             sometimes
             we
             heare
             him
             say
             ,
             friend
             your
             Logick
             is
             naught
             ,
             page
             177.
             
             And
             yet
             (
             be
             it
             spoke
             without
             offence
             )
             the
             Logick
             which
             himselfe
             doth
             here
             use
             is
             not
             so
             good
             ,
             as
             to
             be
             altogether
             without
             fault
             ,
             no
             not
             for
             the
             forme
             of
             it
             ;
             and
             therefore
             ,
             we
             do
             not
             see
             how
             any
             thing
             can
             be
             concluded
             th●reby
             .
          
           
             But
             to
             leave
             this
             mistake
             ,
             and
             to
             consider
             of
             the
             matter
             it selfe
             .
             If
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             this
             Assembly
             doth
             not
             only
             in
             a
             Doctrinall
             way
             consute
             a
             false
             Doctrine
             ,
             but
             also
             rebuke
             the
             Authors
             thereof
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             follow
             that
             this
             rebuking
             was
             done
             in
             a
             
             Iu●idicall
             way
             ?
             Is
             there
             no
             rebuking
             of
             offenders
             for
             their
             faults
             ,
             but
             only
             in
             a
             way
             of
             ●●●●ction
             and
             Discipline
             ?
             I
             suppose
             much
             needs
             not
             to
             be
             said
             for
             the
             cleering
             the
             truth
             to
             be
             otherwise
             .
             For
             Master
             Rutherford
             himselfe
             confesses
             Page
             394.
             
             
               That
               there
               is
               great
               odds
               to
               do
               one
               and
               the
               same
               action
               materially
               ,
               and
               to
               do
               the
               same
               formally
               :
               and
               Page
               393.
               
               That
               one
               Apostle
               might
               himselfe
               alone
               have
               rebuked
               these
               obtruders
               of
               Circumcision
               .
            
             Which
             being
             so
             ,
             it
             followeth
             thereupon
             that
             though
             this
             Synod
             (
             to
             call
             it
             so
             )
             Act.
             15.
             
             Had
             a
             Doctrinall
             power
             ,
             yea
             and
             a
             power
             of
             rebuking
             these
             false
             teachers
             ;
             yet
             the
             thing
             that
             he
             from
             thence
             would
             inferre
             ,
             viz.
             Their
             power
             of
             rebuking
             in
             a
             Iuridicall
             way
             ,
             and
             their
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             ,
             these
             are
             neither
             of
             them
             proved
             thereby
             .
          
           
             For
             if
             it
             should
             be
             said
             ,
             that
             though
             rebuking
             do
             not
             alwayes
             imply
             Iuridicall
             power
             ,
             yet
             if
             it
             be
             a
             Synod
             that
             doth
             rebuke
             ,
             then
             the
             power
             here
             spoken
             of
             may
             be
             concluded
             thence
             to
             be
             in
             a
             Synod
             .
             The
             Answer
             is
             ,
             that
             this
             will
             not
             helpe
             at
             all
             ,
             because
             this
             is
             nothing
             but
             the
             bringing
             in
             of
             another
             Efficient
             ,
             viz.
             The
             Synod
             ,
             for
             effecting
             or
             acting
             the
             same
             effect
             .
             Now
             Master
             Rutherford
             confesseth
             pag.
             393.
             
             
               That
               he
               doth
               not
               fetch
               the
               specification
               of
               this
               rebuke
               and
               of
               those
               Decrees
               from
               the
               efficient
               causes
               ;
               and
               gives
               that
               for
               his
               reason
               ,
               which
               to
               me
               is
               unanswerable
               ,
               to
               wit
               ,
               because
               one
               Apostle
               might
               himselfe
               alone
               have
               rebuked
               these
               obtruders
               of
               Circumcision
               :
            
             And
             in
             the
             page
             next
             ensuing
             he
             confesseth
             also
             ,
             that
             actions
             have
             not
             by
             good
             Logick
             their
             totall
             specification
             from
             the
             efficient
             cause
             .
             Which
             being
             so
             ,
             then
             though
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             any
             Synod
             may
             ,
             and
             that
             this
             Synod
             did
             performe
             this
             action
             of
             rebuking
             ,
             yet
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             the
             power
             of
             a
             Synod
             is
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             of
             Excommunication
             is
             not
             at
             all
             gained
             thereby
             .
          
           
             At
             the
             least
             wise
             (
             to
             end
             this
             passage
             )
             this
             I
             may
             say
             ,
             that
             if
             this
             Reverend
             Brother
             will
             be
             true
             to
             his
             own
             Principles
             ,
             and
             not
             gainsay
             what
             himselfe
             hath
             already
             written
             ,
             he
             for
             his
             part
             cannot
             conclude
             the
             Synods
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             from
             this
             argument
             of
             their
             power
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             nor
             yet
             from
             any
             other
             argument
             whatsoever
             :
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             he
             doth
             elsewhere
             confesse
             that
             Synods
             are
             not
             to
             Excommunicate
             any
             ,
             and
             not
             this
             Synod
             in
             particular
             to
             Excommunicate
             these
             false
             teachers
             ,
             but
             to
             remit
             the
             censuring
             of
             them
             to
             other
             Churches
             ,
             Commanding
             them
             to
             doe
             it
             .
             His
             words
             as
             they
             are
             to
             be
             seene
             in
             his
             Page
             413.
             are
             these
             ,
             
               viz.
               I
               could
               easily
               yeeld
               that
               there
               is
               no
               necessity
               of
               the
               Elicit
               acts
               of
               many
               parts
               of
               government
               ,
               such
               as
               Excommunication
               ,
               Ordination
               ,
               admitting
               of
               Heathens
               ,
               professing
               the
               Faith
               to
               Church-membership
               ,
               in
               Synods
               Provincicall
               ,
               Nationall
               or
               Oecumenicall
               ;
               but
               that
               Synods
               in
               the
               ease
               of
               neglect
               of
               Presbyterycall
               Churches
               ,
               Command
               these
               particular
               Churches
               whom
               it
               concerneth
               to
               doe
               their
               duty
               :
               and
               in
               this
               sence
            
             Act.
             15.
             
             
               Is
               to
               remit
               the
               censure
               of
               Excommunication
               to
               the
               Presbytery
               of
            
             Antioch
             and
             Ierusalem
             ,
             
               in
               case
               of
               the
               obstinacy
               of
               these
               obtruders
               of
               Circumcision
               .
            
             In
             which
             words
             we
             have
             two
             things
             concerning
             Excommunication
             (
             to
             omit
             other
             particulars
             )
             first
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             no
             necessity
             that
             Synods
             should
             Excommunicate
             any
             ,
             but
             only
             command
             the
             Churches
             to
             do
             their
             duty
             therein
             .
             Secondly
             ,
             in
             particular
             concerning
             that
             Synod
             
             Acts
             15.
             
             That
             they
             were
             to
             remit
             the
             censure
             of
             Excommunication
             to
             the
             Presbyteries
             of
             Antioch
             and
             Jerusalem
             ,
             in
             case
             of
             the
             obstinacy
             of
             these
             obtruders
             or
             Circumcision
             .
             Which
             particulars
             being
             most
             true
             (
             as
             I
             for
             my
             part
             so
             esteeme
             of
             them
             )
             it
             followes
             thereupon
             ,
             that
             what
             Master
             Rutherford
             saith
             in
             this
             place
             we
             have
             now
             in
             hand
             ,
             is
             greatly
             weakned
             thereby
             .
             For
             how
             both
             these
             can
             stand
             together
             ,
             that
             this
             Synod
             should
             have
             power
             not
             only
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             but
             to
             Excommunicate
             these
             false
             teachers
             ,
             and
             yet
             neither
             Provinciall
             ,
             Nationall
             ,
             nor
             Oecumenicall
             Synods
             to
             Excommunicate
             any
             ,
             nor
             this
             Synod
             in
             particular
             to
             Excommunicate
             these
             false
             teachers
             ,
             but
             to
             remit
             the
             censure
             to
             other
             Churches
             to
             whom
             it
             concerned
             ,
             commanding
             them
             to
             do
             it
             ,
             how
             these
             things
             I
             say
             can
             stand
             together
             ,
             I
             for
             my
             part
             am
             not
             able
             to
             understand
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             IIII.
             
          
           
             Of
             the
             Dogmaticall
             power
             of
             Synods
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             to
             determine
             matters
             amongst
             themselves
             if
             ability
             serve
             thereto
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               his
               Page
               396.
               alledging
               Mr.
            
             Tompsons
             
               name
               and
               mine
               ,
               and
               chap.
               1.
               page
               9.
               of
               the
               Answer
               .
            
             He
             saith
             we
             there
             teach
             that
             there
             is
             a
             power
             of
             cleering
             truth
             dogmatically
             ,
             &
             that
             ultimately
             where
             the
             controversy
             is
             ended
             :
             but
             he
             saith
             ,
             we
             will
             have
             this
             Vltimate
             power
             not
             in
             a
             Synod
             only
             ,
             but
             also
             in
             a
             Congregation
             ;
             
               and
               then
               no
               answereth
               three
               things
               which
               there
               ensue
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             
               Our
               words
               are
               these
               ,
               by
               power
               of
               Decrees
               we
               understand
               power
               to
               cleere
               up
               the
               truth
               Dogmatically
               ;
               for
               the
               word
               translated
               Decrees
               is
            
             Dogmata
             
               in
               the
               Originall
            
             ,
             Act.
             16.
             4.
             
             
               And
               this
               power
               we
               confesse
               is
               in
               a
               Synod
               ,
               though
               not
               all
               in
               a
               Synod
               alone
               ,
               but
               also
               in
               the
               Presbyterie
               of
               a
               single
               Congregation
               .
            
             Now
             these
             bring
             our
             words
             ,
             if
             therefore
             this
             Reverend
             Brother
             would
             overthrow
             our
             Tenent
             in
             this
             particular
             ,
             he
             should
             have
             proved
             that
             there
             is
             not
             any
             power
             as
             all
             in
             the
             Presbytery
             of
             a
             single
             Congregation
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             truth
             Dogmatically
             :
             this
             indeed
             had
             been
             directly
             contrary
             to
             what
             we
             teach
             :
             But
             this
             be
             neither
             proveth
             ,
             nor
             once
             attempteth
             to
             prove
             ;
             and
             therefore
             our
             Tenent
             herein
             doth
             yet
             stand
             good
             ,
             for
             any
             thing
             he
             hath
             said
             to
             the
             contrary
             .
          
           
             And
             no
             marvell
             ,
             si●h
             the
             expresse
             words
             of
             the
             text
             do
             witnesse
             that
             every
             Bishop
             hath
             power
             and
             is
             boand
             by
             his
             Office
             and
             duty
             ,
             by
             sound
             Doctrin●
             both
             to
             exhort
             and
             convince
             gainsayets
             ,
             Tit.
             1.
             9.
             
             And
             accordingly
             the
             Presbitery
             of
             Antioch
             did
             labour
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             truth
             in
             that
             controversy
             about
             Circumcision
             ;
             and
             had
             much
             disputation
             about
             it
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             afore
             there
             was
             any
             speech
             of
             sending
             to
             Jerusalem
             for
             help
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             2.
             
             Which
             sheweth
             that
             they
             had
             power
             or
             right
             to
             have
             cleered
             the
             matter
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             if
             ability
             had
             served
             ,
             or
             else
             this
             indeavour
             had
             been
             sinful
             as
             being
             an
             attempting
             to
             do
             that
             whereto
             they
             had
             no
             right
             .
             So
             that
             for
             ought
             we
             yet
             soe
             ,
             the
             power
             that
             we
             speake
             of
             ,
             and
             which
             wee
             hold
             to
             bee
             in
             the
             
             Presbytery
             of
             a
             Congregation
             is
             there
             indeed
             by
             the
             appointment
             of
             the
             Lord.
             
          
           
             But
             let
             us
             heare
             Master
             Rutherfords
             Answer
             .
          
           
             First
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             they
             seeme
             to
             make
             this
             Dogmaticall
             power
             a
             Church
             power
             ,
             and
             the
             exercise
             thereof
             formally
             an
             act
             of
             Church
             government
             ;
             and
             so
             it
             must
             be
             Church
             power
             and
             Church
             government
             in
             the
             Synod
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             in
             the
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Whence
             doth
             it
             seeme
             that
             we
             do
             so
             make
             it
             ?
             Are
             there
             any
             such
             words
             as
             here
             he
             sets
             down
             ?
             Or
             any
             words
             equivalent
             thereto
             ?
             Or
             doth
             the
             place
             make
             any
             mention
             of
             Church-power
             ,
             and
             Church
             government
             at
             all
             ?
             Or
             is
             there
             so
             much
             as
             one
             word
             that
             looketh
             that
             way
             ?
             If
             there
             be
             ,
             let
             our
             Brother
             say
             that
             we
             seeme
             to
             ●each
             as
             he
             doth
             report
             ;
             but
             if
             there
             be
             not
             ,
             we
             are
             sorry
             he
             should
             report
             us
             to
             teach
             o●
             seeme
             to
             teach
             ,
             that
             which
             to
             our
             remembrance
             we
             never
             said
             nor
             thought
             .
             And
             sure
             it
             is
             ,
             we
             have
             expresly
             said
             the
             direct
             contrary
             in
             page
             7
             ,
             the
             Page
             next
             save
             one
             afore
             this
             which
             heere
             he
             is
             dealing
             against
             ,
             where
             wee
             have
             these
             words
             ,
             
               It
               seemeth
               to
               us
               (
               say
               we
               )
               that
               this
               power
               ,
            
             viz.
             
               By
               disquisition
               and
               disputation
               to
               cleere
               up
               the
               rule
               (
               and
               then
               to
               command
               Obedience
               thereto
               )
               is
               not
               properly
               a
               power
               and
               exercise
               of
               government
               and
               Jurisdiction
               ,
               but
               a
               power
               of
               Doctrine
               ,
               and
               so
               a
               Synod
               is
               rather
               a
               teaching
               then
               a
               governing
               Church
               .
            
             These
             are
             our
             words
             in
             the
             Page
             afore
             alledged
             ;
             wherein
             we
             plainly
             expresse
             what
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             seemeth
             unto
             us
             to
             be
             ,
             even
             the
             direct
             contrary
             to
             that
             which
             he
             saith
             we
             seeme
             to
             make
             it
             ;
             wee
             on
             the
             one
             side
             affirming
             and
             expressing
             ,
             that
             it
             seemes
             to
             us
             ,
             the
             power
             of
             a
             Synod
             is
             no
             power
             of
             government
             and
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             but
             a
             power
             of
             Doctrine
             :
             And
             he
             on
             the
             other
             side
             reporting
             that
             we
             seeme
             to
             make
             the
             exercise
             of
             Dogmaticall
             power
             to
             be
             formally
             an
             act
             of
             Church-government
             ,
             and
             so
             to
             place
             Church-government
             in
             the
             Synod
             .
             In
             which
             report
             we
             must
             needs
             say
             ,
             wee
             are
             plainly
             mis-reported
             .
          
           
             His
             second
             answer
             is
             this
             .
             The
             last
             period
             and
             Conclusion
             of
             the
             controversie
             cannot
             be
             both
             in
             the
             Congregation
             by
             right
             only
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             Synod
             by
             right
             only
             :
             For
             two
             last
             powers
             cannot
             be
             properly
             in
             two
             Subordinate
             Iudicatures
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             is
             very
             true
             ,
             but
             it
             toucheth
             not
             us
             at
             all
             .
             For
             we
             never
             said
             the
             last
             period
             of
             the
             controversie
             is
             both
             in
             the
             Congregation
             only
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             Synod
             onely
             .
             If
             we
             have
             so
             said
             ,
             let
             the
             place
             be
             produced
             where
             we
             have
             said
             it
             ;
             for
             the
             place
             by
             him
             alledged
             doth
             afford
             us
             no
             such
             thing
             ,
             nor
             any
             place
             else
             that
             we
             know
             of
             .
             All
             that
             the
             place
             affords
             concerning
             this
             point
             is
             only
             this
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             a
             power
             of
             cleering
             the
             truth
             Dogmatically
             in
             a
             Synod
             ,
             though
             not
             in
             a
             Synod
             only
             ,
             but
             also
             in
             the
             Presbytery
             of
             a
             single
             Congregation
             .
             And
             this
             Doctrine
             I
             hope
             our
             Brother
             will
             not
             deny
             .
             But
             whether
             this
             power
             be
             last
             in
             the
             Synod
             ,
             or
             in
             the
             Congregationall
             Presbytery
             ,
             of
             this
             we
             do
             not
             speaks
             at
             all
             ;
             much
             lesse
             do
             we
             say
             as
             he
             doth
             apprehend
             and
             report
             ,
             that
             this
             power
             is
             both
             last
             in
             the
             Synod
             and
             last
             in
             the
             Congregation
             too
             .
             Wherefore
             our
             defence
             in
             this
             particular
             must
             needs
             be
             this
             ;
             that
             what
             here
             he
             confuteth
             to
             be
             outs
             ,
             is
             such
             a
             thing
             as
             never
             fell
             from
             our
             mouths
             or
             pens
             ,
             nor
             for
             ought
             we
             know
             did
             never
             enter
             into
             our
             thoughts
             .
          
           
           
             Thirdly
             ,
             he
             saith
             .
             If
             a
             controversie
             concerne
             many
             Congregations
             as
             this
             doth
             Act.
             15.
             
             I
             see
             not
             how
             a
             Congregation
             except
             they
             transgresse
             their
             line
             ,
             can
             finally
             determine
             it
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Neither
             doth
             this
             touch
             us
             ,
             except
             we
             had
             said
             that
             a
             Congregation
             may
             finally
             determine
             controversies
             which
             concerne
             many
             Churches
             ,
             which
             yet
             we
             have
             not
             said
             .
             As
             for
             that
             controversie
             Act.
             15.
             
             It
             is
             plaine
             from
             verse
             2
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             did
             endeavour
             to
             have
             ended
             it
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             so
             far
             as
             they
             were
             troubled
             therewith
             .
             For
             some
             teaching
             that
             corrupt
             Doctrine
             amongst
             them
             ,
             they
             had
             much
             disputation
             about
             the
             point
             afore
             they
             determined
             to
             send
             out
             for
             helpe
             elsewhere
             .
             Now
             to
             what
             end
             was
             thus
             much
             disputation
             ,
             if
             they
             had
             no
             right
             to
             determine
             the
             matter
             ?
             might
             they
             not
             better
             have
             spared
             their
             paines
             ?
             Or
             did
             they
             not
             transgresse
             their
             line
             in
             attempting
             what
             they
             did
             attempt
             ?
             Sure
             it
             seemes
             they
             did
             ,
             if
             they
             had
             not
             right
             to
             determine
             the
             matter
             .
             But
             for
             our
             part
             ,
             sith
             we
             do
             not
             find
             them
             in
             the
             least
             reproved
             by
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             for
             this
             attempt
             ,
             therfore
             we
             cannot
             but
             think
             they
             did
             well
             therein
             .
             And
             thereupon
             it
             followeth
             ,
             that
             if
             Antioch
             was
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             (
             as
             it
             seemes
             to
             us
             it
             was
             ,
             from
             
               Act.
               14.
               27.
               
            
             )
             either
             this
             controversie
             did
             trouble
             no
             Church
             but
             Antioch
             only
             ,
             or
             else
             when
             a
             controversie
             or
             corrupt
             opinion
             doth
             trouble
             many
             Churches
             ,
             one
             of
             them
             may
             lawfully
             determine
             and
             end
             it
             ,
             so
             farre
             at
             it
             concernes
             themselves
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             V.
             
          
           
             Againe
             of
             that
             Assembly
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             
             Whether
             their
             rebuking
             the
             false
             teachers
             do
             prove
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Excommunication
             in
             Synods
             :
             and
             whether
             Preaching
             doe
             prove
             the
             Assembly
             where
             it
             is
             ,
             to
             be
             a
             Church
             .
          
           
             
               THe
               new
               place
               where
               I
               find
               him
               excepting
               against
               the
               Answer
               ,
               it
               in
               his
               Pag.
               410.
               
               Where
               he
               proposeth
               an
               Object
               .
               to
               this
               effect
               ,
               to
               wit.
               Paul
            
             exercised
             the
             Keyes
             of
             knowledge
             upon
             Barbarians
             ,
             and
             might
             have
             Preached
             to
             Indians
             ,
             and
             did
             to
             scoffing
             Athenians
             —
             yea
             Paul
             by
             this
             power
             Dogmaticall
             rebuked
             the
             Athenians
             ,
             Act.
             17.
             22.
             
             Yet
             Paul
             had
             no
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             the
             Athenians
             .
             
               And
               then
               he
               subjoyneth
               my
               name
               ,
               and
               cites
               in
               the
               Margent
               the
               43
               ,
               and
               44
               pages
               of
               the
               Answer
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             Objection
             being
             taken
             from
             Pauls
             rebuking
             the
             Athenians
             ,
             our
             Brother
             had
             no
             reason
             to
             propose
             it
             under
             Mr.
             Tompsons
             〈◊〉
             and
             mine
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             in
             all
             that
             discourse
             of
             ours
             ,
             the
             Athenians
             to
             my
             rememb●ance
             are
             not
             so
             much
             as
             once
             mentioned
             :
             sure
             in
             the
             Pages
             by
             him
             alledged
             there
             is
             no
             mention
             of
             the
             Athenians
             at
             all
             .
             And
             therefore
             why
             this
             Objection
             should
             bee
             proposed
             and
             reported
             by
             him
             as
             ours
             ,
             wee
             doe
             not
             know
             .
             Which
             I
             doe
             not
             say
             ,
             〈◊〉
             though
             I
             thought
             
             the
             objection
             so
             weake
             ,
             as
             though
             the
             Authors
             of
             it
             may
             not
             well
             owne
             it
             .
             For
             from
             whosoever
             the
             Objection
             came
             ,
             for
             ought
             that
             I
             yet
             perceive
             there
             is
             good
             weight
             therein
             .
             For
             which
             cause
             ,
             and
             because
             in
             one
             of
             those
             Pages
             wee
             have
             delivered
             something
             concerning
             a
             Ministers
             power
             to
             Preach
             to
             Pagans
             in
             generall
             ,
             (
             though
             nothing
             concerning
             the
             Atheni●ns
             in
             particular
             ,
             as
             hee
             reporteth
             )
             therefore
             I
             am
             willing
             to
             consider
             what
             Mr.
             Rutherfor●
             saith
             ,
             for
             the
             satisfying
             of
             the
             objection
             proposed
             ,
             as
             not
             willing
             to
             passe
             by
             any
             thing
             without
             consideration
             ,
             wherein
             our selves
             may
             seeme
             to
             be
             concerned
             or
             aymed
             at
          
           
             I
             deny
             not
             saith
             he
             ,
             but
             there
             is
             a
             great
             oddes
             betwixt
             a
             concionall
             rebuking
             by
             way
             of
             Preaching
             ,
             which
             may
             be
             and
             is
             alwayes
             performed
             by
             one
             ,
             and
             a
             juridicall
             rebuking
             by
             a
             power
             Jurididicall
             of
             the
             Keyes
             ,
             which
             is
             performed
             only
             by
             a
             Church
             society
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             all
             this
             were
             granted
             ,
             you
             the
             Objection
             is
             not
             satisfied
             ,
             nor
             his
             purpose
             gained
             thereby
             .
             For
             the
             cleering
             whereof
             it
             is
             good
             to
             consider
             the
             thing
             in
             Question
             ,
             and
             how
             this
             Objection
             comes
             in
             ,
             and
             whereto
             it
             tends
             ,
             and
             then
             we
             may
             better
             descerne
             how
             the
             objection
             is
             removed
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             answer
             :
             The
             thing
             in
             question
             is
             ,
             whether
             a
             Synod
             have
             power
             of
             Iurisidiction
             and
             Excommunication
             .
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             scope
             in
             that
             place
             is
             to
             prove
             the
             Affirmative
             ;
             and
             therefore
             for
             a
             dozen
             or
             14
             Pages
             together
             ,
             hee
             hath
             these
             words
             in
             the
             top
             of
             every
             lease
             ,
             
               The
               power
               of
               a
               Synod
               a
               power
               of
               Jurisdiction
               :
            
             and
             his
             medium
             to
             prove
             this
             Tenent
             is
             this
             ;
             Because
             a
             Synod
             hath
             Power
             to
             rebuke
             .
             Whereupon
             ensueth
             the
             Objection
             ,
             that
             Paul
             might
             rebuke
             the
             Athenians
             and
             yet
             might
             not
             Excommunicate
             them
             ;
             and
             therefore
             enough
             a
             Synod
             may
             rebuke
             ,
             it
             followes
             not
             that
             they
             may
             Excommunicate
             .
             This
             is
             the
             order
             of
             the
             Dispute
             ,
             as
             is
             plainly
             to
             bee
             seeme
             by
             p●●●sing
             the
             place
             .
             And
             now
             comes
             in
             the
             Answer
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             gives
             to
             the
             objection
             ;
             to
             wit
             ,
             
               That
               there
               is
               a
               great
               odds
               betwixt
               a
               Concionall
               rebuking
               and
               a
               Juridicall
               ,
               the
               one
               being
               performed
               by
               one
               ,
               and
               the
               other
               by
               many
            
             ;
             Which
             Answer
             I
             conceive
             is
             not
             sufficient
             ,
             because
             this
             Difference
             may
             hee
             granted
             and
             many
             more
             may
             be
             added
             if
             hee
             please
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             not
             gained
             ,
             nor
             the
             Objection
             removed
             at
             all
             .
             For
             what
             though
             a
             Concionall
             rebuking
             be
             performed
             by
             one
             ,
             and
             a
             Iuridicall
             by
             many
             ?
             Yet
             still
             it
             remaineth
             cleare
             ,
             that
             there
             may
             bee
             rebuking
             where
             there
             is
             no
             Iurisdiction
             ;
             and
             therefore
             ,
             though
             a
             Synod
             may
             rebuke
             ,
             it
             followes
             not
             that
             they
             may
             Excommunicate
             ,
             nor
             have
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             .
             If
             our
             Brother
             would
             have
             satisfied
             the
             Objection
             ,
             he
             should
             not
             have
             satisfyed
             himselfe
             with
             alledging
             the
             difference
             mentioned
             betweene
             a
             Concionall
             rebuking
             ,
             and
             a
             Iuridicall
             or
             Synodicall
             ;
             but
             should
             have
             proved
             that
             there
             cannot
             be
             any
             Concionall
             rebuking
             at
             all
             ,
             at
             least
             wise
             not
             any
             rebuking
             of
             Athenians
             who
             are
             not
             subject
             to
             Excommunication
             ,
             and
             if
             this
             had
             been
             proved
             ,
             the
             Objection
             had
             been
             fully
             removed
             .
             But
             this
             he
             hath
             not
             proved
             at
             all
             ,
             nor
             once
             attempted
             to
             prove
             it
             ,
             but
             plainly
             yeelds
             the
             contrary
             ;
             and
             therefore
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             the
             Objection
             remayneth
             in
             its
             strength
             ,
             and
             so
             the
             strength
             of
             his
             argument
             removed
             thereby
             ,
             who
             would
             prove
             the
             Synod
             ,
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             from
             their
             power
             of
             rebuking
             .
          
           
             But
             let
             as
             heare
             what
             he
             answereth
             in
             the
             words
             ensuing
             .
          
           
           
             It
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             saith
             he
             ,
             but
             the
             rebuking
             of
             men
             because
             they
             subverted
             Soules
             ,
             verse
             24.
             
             Is
             not
             a
             meere
             Concionall
             rebuking
             which
             may
             be
             performed
             by
             one
             .
             First
             ,
             it
             is
             a
             rebuking
             verse
             24.
             
             Second
             ,
             it
             is
             a
             rebuking
             performed
             by
             many
             ,
             by
             a
             whole
             Synod
             ,
             6.
             22.
             
             Third
             ,
             it
             is
             performed
             by
             a
             politicall
             Society
             .
          
           
             Answ
             ,
             And
             what
             of
             all
             this
             ?
             May
             it
             not
             neverthelesse
             be
             denyed
             that
             this
             rebuking
             was
             any
             other
             then
             in
             a
             Doctrinall
             way
             ?
             Be
             it
             granted
             ,
             that
             it
             was
             a
             rebuking
             ,
             and
             a
             rebuking
             performed
             by
             many
             ;
             and
             if
             were
             granted
             by
             a
             Politicall
             Society
             too
             ;
             must
             it
             needs
             follow
             that
             therefore
             it
             was
             Iuridicall
             ,
             or
             in
             way
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ?
             I
             see
             no
             necessity
             of
             such
             Consequence
             .
             Nay
             ,
             Master
             Rutherford
             himselfe
             doth
             confesse
             (
             as
             we
             heard
             afore
             )
             in
             his
             Page
             393.
             
             
               That
               the
               specification
               of
               this
               rebuke
               must
               not
               be
               fetched
               from
               the
               efficient
               causes
               ,
               because
               one
               Apostle
               might
               himselfe
               alone
               have
               rebuked
               these
               obtruders
               of
               Circumcision
               .
            
             If
             therefore
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             many
             persons
             ,
             a
             whole
             Synod
             ,
             a
             Politicall
             Society
             ,
             or
             what
             ever
             else
             he
             will
             call
             them
             ,
             were
             the
             efficient
             causes
             of
             this
             rebuke
             ,
             yet
             all
             this
             is
             too
             little
             to
             prove
             that
             the
             rebuke
             was
             Iuridicall
             ,
             unlesse
             the
             specification
             of
             it
             must
             be
             fetched
             from
             the
             efficient
             causes
             ,
             which
             Master
             Rutherford
             himselfe
             disclaymes
             .
          
           
             Moreover
             ,
             I
             would
             put
             this
             Case
             :
             suppose
             a
             Pagan
             or
             a
             Christian
             of
             another
             Nation
             and
             Kingdome
             ,
             shall
             come
             into
             a
             Church
             Assembly
             ,
             whether
             the
             Assembly
             be
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             ,
             or
             a
             Synod
             ;
             and
             in
             the
             Assembly
             shall
             openly
             and
             Scandalously
             misbehave
             himselfe
             in
             one
             kind
             or
             other
             ,
             to
             the
             dishonour
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             grieving
             of
             the
             godly
             ,
             and
             the
             danger
             of
             corrupting
             others
             that
             shall
             behold
             such
             bad
             example
             .
             I
             would
             gladly
             know
             whether
             this
             Assembly
             be
             it
             Synod
             or
             other
             ,
             may
             not
             lawfully
             rebuke
             this
             Scandalous
             practice
             and
             behaviour
             ,
             and
             if
             they
             may
             ,
             whether
             it
             would
             follow
             therupon
             that
             they
             may
             also
             lawfully
             Excommunicate
             the
             man
             ,
             if
             his
             sin
             and
             impenitency
             shall
             deserve
             the
             same
             .
             If
             it
             be
             said
             they
             may
             ,
             I
             would
             know
             :
             
               quo
               jure
            
             ?
             And
             who
             gave
             them
             such
             Authority
             to
             Excommunicate
             Pagans
             ,
             or
             men
             of
             another
             Nation
             ,
             being
             only
             there
             present
             at
             that
             time
             occasionally
             ?
             And
             if
             they
             may
             not
             so
             proceed
             against
             such
             a
             person
             ,
             then
             the
             answer
             to
             Master
             Rutherfords
             alledgements
             in
             the
             Case
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             is
             ready
             and
             plaine
             :
             For
             as
             he
             alledgeth
             ,
             
               First
               ,
               here
               is
               a
               rebuking
               .
               Second
               ,
               a
               rebuking
               of
               many
               ,
               even
               a
               whole
               Synod
               .
               Third
               ,
               of
               a
               Politicall
               Society
               and
               Body
            
             ;
             even
             so
             the
             same
             may
             be
             said
             in
             this
             Case
             in
             all
             the
             particulars
             ;
             For
             first
             ,
             here
             is
             a
             rebuking
             .
             Second
             ,
             rebuking
             of
             many
             .
             Third
             ,
             by
             a
             Politicall
             Society
             and
             body
             :
             and
             yet
             all
             this
             is
             too
             little
             to
             prove
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Excommunication
             in
             the
             case
             proposed
             ;
             and
             therefore
             I
             see
             not
             how
             it
             can
             be
             sufficient
             to
             prove
             such
             a
             power
             in
             a
             Synod
             ,
             for
             which
             purpose
             Master
             Rutherford
             brings
             it
             .
             Of
             necessity
             for
             ought
             that
             I
             see
             ,
             one
             of
             these
             must
             be
             said
             ,
             either
             that
             this
             Assembly
             have
             no
             power
             to
             rebuke
             the
             man
             ,
             but
             must
             suffer
             his
             sin
             to
             be
             upon
             him
             ,
             though
             God
             be
             dishonoured
             ,
             and
             others
             endangered
             thereby
             ;
             or
             else
             it
             must
             be
             said
             they
             have
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             him
             as
             well
             as
             to
             rebuke
             him
             ;
             (
             neither
             of
             which
             I
             conceive
             can
             safely
             be
             said
             )
             or
             if
             neither
             of
             these
             can
             be
             said
             ,
             it
             must
             then
             follow
             that
             their
             may
             be
             power
             to
             rebuke
             ,
             even
             in
             an
             Assembly
             of
             many
             persons
             ,
             a
             Politicall
             Society
             ;
             and
             yet
             the
             same
             
             Assembly
             have
             no
             power
             at
             all
             to
             Excommunicate
             the
             persons
             so
             rebuked
             ,
             and
             so
             this
             learned
             Brothers
             arguing
             is
             answered
             .
          
           
             Likewise
             ,
             I
             suppose
             it
             will
             not
             be
             denyed
             ,
             but
             one
             Congregation
             if
             need
             so
             require
             ,
             may
             rebuke
             and
             reprove
             another
             Congregation
             ,
             though
             neither
             of
             them
             be
             Superiour
             to
             other
             ,
             but
             both
             of
             them
             equall
             and
             Independant
             of
             each
             other
             in
             regard
             of
             subjection
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherf
             .
             confesseth
             ,
             p.
             294.
             
             
               That
               Congregations
               and
               Churches
               may
               admonish
               and
               rebuke
               each
               other
               ,
            
             And
             sure
             it
             is
             ,
             that
             Scripture
             ,
             
               Cant.
               8.
               8.
               
               We
               have
               a
               little
               sister
               ,
               what
               shall
               we
               do
               for
               her
               ?
            
             Doth
             shew
             that
             Churches
             ought
             to
             take
             care
             one
             for
             the
             good
             of
             another
             .
             And
             if
             they
             must
             take
             care
             and
             consult
             for
             one
             another
             ,
             there
             is
             the
             like
             reason
             that
             they
             should
             reprove
             and
             admonish
             one
             another
             ,
             as
             need
             shall
             require
             .
             Now
             when
             one
             Church
             doth
             so
             practise
             towards
             another
             ,
             it
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             ,
             but
             here
             are
             the
             same
             things
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             speakes
             of
             ,
             First
             ,
             a
             Rebuking
             Second
             ,
             a
             rebuking
             performed
             by
             many
             .
             Third
             ,
             a
             rebuking
             performed
             by
             a
             Politicall
             Society
             and
             Body
             .
             But
             can
             any
             man
             inferre
             from
             hence
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             thus
             rebuking
             another
             Church
             hath
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             that
             other
             Church
             ?
             I
             suppose
             none
             will
             affirme
             it
             .
             And
             if
             this
             may
             not
             be
             affirmed
             ,
             I
             do
             not
             see
             how
             rebuking
             performed
             by
             many
             even
             by
             a
             whole
             Synod
             ,
             can
             be
             any
             sufficient
             ground
             to
             prove
             that
             the
             Synod
             hath
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             .
          
           
             The
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             (
             saith
             our
             Author
             )
             are
             not
             considered
             here
             as
             meerely
             Preachers
             and
             teachers
             in
             the
             act
             of
             teaching
             ;
             for
             why
             then
             should
             they
             not
             be
             formally
             a
             Church
             Assembly
             ,
             if
             they
             be
             an
             Assembly
             meeting
             for
             Preaching
             the
             word
             ?
             Pag.
             411.
             412.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             When
             the
             text
             Acts
             15
             ,
             doth
             mention
             sometimes
             the
             Multitude
             ,
             verse
             12.
             
             Sometimes
             the
             Brethren
             ,
             verse
             23.
             
             Sometimes
             the
             whole
             Church
             ,
             verse
             22.
             
             Besides
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ,
             we
             know
             no
             absurdity
             in
             it
             ,
             if
             one
             should
             say
             ,
             here
             was
             formally
             a
             Church
             and
             a
             Church
             Assembly
             ;
             in
             which
             Church-assembly
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             were
             teachers
             and
             Preachers
             ,
             though
             they
             alone
             were
             not
             the
             Church
             .
             Yet
             though
             wee
             thinke
             heere
             was
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             a
             Church-assembly
             ;
             wee
             do
             not
             thinke
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             reason
             doth
             prove
             them
             so
             to
             be
             .
             For
             Paul
             and
             S●las
             were
             Preachers
             of
             the
             word
             in
             the
             Prison
             at
             
               Philippi
               ,
               Act
            
             16.
             
             And
             at
             Mar●hill
             ,
             and
             the
             Market-place
             at
             
               Athens
               ,
               Act.
            
             17.
             
             And
             yet
             we
             thinke
             it
             hard
             to
             inferre
             thence
             ,
             that
             these
             Assemblies
             were
             formally
             Churches
             .
          
           
             Yea
             but
             saith
             our
             Author
             ,
             the
             exercise
             of
             the
             Keyes
             of
             knowledge
             in
             the
             hearing
             of
             a
             multitude
             ,
             is
             essentially
             an
             act
             of
             Preaching
             of
             the
             Word
             ,
             Page
             412.
             
          
           
             Answ
             This
             is
             very
             true
             indeed
             ,
             an
             act
             of
             Preaching
             the
             word
             it
             must
             needs
             bee
             ,
             the
             word
             Preaching
             being
             taken
             in
             its
             utmost
             Latitude
             .
             But
             is
             not
             unavoidably
             and
             alwayes
             a
             Church-act
             ,
             or
             an
             act
             that
             infallibly
             proves
             the
             Assembly
             ,
             where
             such
             an
             act
             is
             performed
             ,
             to
             be
             formally
             a
             Church
             ?
             This
             is
             the
             thing
             that
             should
             have
             been
             cleered
             ,
             or
             else
             the
             thing
             is
             not
             cleered
             ;
             But
             this
             our
             Reverend
             Author
             doth
             not
             cleere
             at
             all
             ;
             and
             the
             contrary
             is
             very
             plaine
             from
             sundry
             instances
             in
             the
             Acts
             ,
             where
             the
             Apostles
             did
             exercise
             the
             Key
             of
             knowledge
             in
             the
             hearing
             of
             multitudes
             in
             sundry
             places
             ,
             where
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             there
             was
             not
             forthwith
             any
             Church
             ;
             and
             therfore
             ,
             
             whereas
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               The
               Apostles
               and
               Elders
               are
               not
               considered
               in
               this
               Assembly
               as
               Preachers
               and
               teachers
               in
               the
               act
               of
               teaching
               ,
               because
               then
               the
               Assembly
               should
               have
               been
               formally
               a
               Church
               ,
            
             We
             rather
             thinke
             they
             that
             shall
             consider
             it
             will
             find
             that
             the
             Apostles
             did
             ,
             and
             other
             Elders
             in
             these
             dayes
             may
             put
             forth
             the
             act
             of
             teaching
             and
             Preaching
             in
             some
             Assemblies
             (
             suppose
             Assemblies
             of
             Turkes
             and
             Indians
             )
             and
             yet
             the
             Assemblies
             not
             thereby
             proved
             to
             be
             Churches
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             VI.
             
          
           
             Whether
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             be
             a
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ;
             and
             of
             the
             dependance
             of
             the
             Synagogues
             upon
             the
             Synedrion
             at
             Jerusalem
             .
          
           
             
               NExt
               of
               all
               ,
               in
               his
               Page
               414
               in
               a
               16
               .
               th
               Objection
               in
               this
               and
               the
               former
               Page
               he
               saith
               thus
               ,
            
             Therefore
             was
             the
             Synagogue
             of
             the
             Jewes
             no
             compleat
             Church
             ,
             because
             all
             the
             Ordinances
             of
             God
             cannot
             be
             performed
             in
             the
             Synagogue
             :
             and
             therefore
             ,
             were
             the
             Jewes
             commanded
             only
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             and
             in
             no
             other
             place
             to
             keepe
             the
             Passeover
             and
             to
             offer
             Offerings
             and
             Sacrifices
             which
             were
             ordinary
             worship
             :
             but
             there
             is
             not
             any
             worshiper
             Sacred
             Ordinance
             (
             saith
             that
             worthy
             Divine
             Dr.
             Ames
             )
             of
             Preaching
             ,
             Praying
             ,
             Sacraments
             ,
             &c.
             prescribed
             ,
             which
             is
             not
             to
             be
             observed
             in
             every
             Congregation
             of
             the
             new
             Testament
             ,
             —
             and
             then
             he
             subjoyneth
             Mr.
             Tompsons
             Name
             and
             mine
             ;
             and
             in
             his
             Margent
             cites
             the
             Answer
             ,
             Page
             12
             ,
             13.
             
             And
             further
             saith
             in
             the
             Objection
             ,
             That
             others
             say
             because
             there
             was
             a
             representative
             worship
             of
             Sacrificing
             of
             all
             the
             twelve
             Tribes
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             therefore
             all
             the
             Synagogues
             were
             dependant
             Churches
             ,
             and
             Ierusalem
             the
             Supreame
             and
             highest
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             To
             leave
             what
             is
             alledged
             a●
             Objected
             by
             others
             ,
             and
             to
             consider
             only
             of
             that
             which
             concernes
             our selves
             .
             Because
             the
             Synagogues
             in
             Israel
             were
             dependant
             on
             the
             great
             Synedrion
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             therefore
             some
             would
             inferre
             that
             Congregations
             in
             these
             dayes
             must
             be
             dependant
             on
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             Synods
             .
             To
             this
             Argument
             we
             are
             endeavouring
             to
             give
             answer
             in
             the
             place
             alledged
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             where
             we
             shew
             that
             the
             Synagogues
             might
             be
             dependant
             and
             not
             compleat
             Churches
             ,
             because
             the
             Sacred
             Ordinances
             of
             God
             which
             were
             of
             ordinary
             use
             ,
             could
             not
             be
             performed
             in
             them
             ;
             but
             Congregations
             in
             these
             dayes
             compleat
             and
             intire
             as
             having
             liberty
             to
             enjoy
             the
             use
             of
             all
             the
             Ordinances
             within
             themselves
             :
             for
             both
             which
             particulars
             we
             alledge
             the
             testimony
             and
             words
             of
             Dr.
             Ames
             .
             The
             summe
             is
             thus
             much
             :
             If
             the
             Synagogues
             could
             not
             enjoy
             all
             the
             Ordinances
             within
             themselves
             ,
             and
             our
             Congregations
             may
             ,
             then
             though
             the
             Synogogues
             were
             dependant
             on
             the
             Synedrion
             
             at
             Jerusalem
             ,
             it
             will
             not
             follow
             that
             Congregations
             in
             these
             dayes
             must
             be
             dependant
             on
             Synods
             .
             This
             is
             the
             〈◊〉
             of
             that
             which
             is
             said
             in
             the
             answer
             :
             in
             the
             place
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             alledges
             .
          
           
             Now
             what
             answer
             doth
             he
             returne
             to
             this
             passage
             ?
             Truly
             none
             at
             all
             that
             I
             can
             find
             .
             None
             will
             you
             say
             ?
             How
             can
             that
             be
             ?
             Doth
             he
             not
             propound
             it
             in
             his
             16
             .
             th
             Objection
             ,
             as
             that
             which
             he
             undertakes
             to
             answer
             ?
             I
             confesse
             he
             doth
             so
             ,
             but
             neverthelesse
             all
             that
             he
             hath
             set
             down
             for
             answer
             is
             wholly
             taken
             up
             and
             spent
             in
             two
             other
             things
             ,
             the
             Objection
             which
             he
             proposeth
             as
             ours
             ,
             being
             wholly
             left
             untouched
             .
             Those
             two
             things
             are
             these
             ;
             the
             one
             an
             answer
             to
             another
             passage
             of
             ours
             in
             another
             place
             of
             the
             answer
             ,
             the
             other
             an
             answer
             to
             the
             last
             part
             of
             his
             Objection
             ,
             which
             himselfe
             doth
             acknowledge
             to
             bee
             the
             saying
             of
             others
             ,
             and
             not
             ours
             ;
             and
             therefore
             hee
             brings
             it
             in
             thus
             
               viz.
               Others
               say
            
             ,
             because
             there
             was
             a
             representative
             worship
             ,
             &c.
             by
             those
             words
             ,
             Others
             say
             ,
             plainly
             declaring
             that
             what
             he
             thus
             expresseth
             ,
             proceedeth
             not
             from
             us
             ,
             but
             from
             others
             .
             And
             so
             though
             he
             returne
             answer
             to
             this
             saying
             of
             others
             ,
             and
             to
             another
             saying
             of
             ours
             which
             we
             have
             written
             elsewhore
             ,
             yet
             for
             this
             of
             ours
             which
             he
             proposeth
             in
             this
             h●s
             Objection
             ,
             I
             find
             no
             answer
             thereto
             at
             all
             .
             And
             therefore
             I
             thinke
             the
             thing
             remaines
             as
             it
             was
             ,
             unlesse
             wee
             shall
             take
             his
             meere
             proposing
             of
             it
             for
             a
             satisfying
             answer
             ,
             which
             we
             see
             no
             reason
             to
             do
             .
          
           
             
               Neverthelesse
               ,
               though
               he
               turnes
               away
               from
               this
               passage
               of
               ours
               without
               returning
               any
               answer
               thereto
               ,
               yet
               there
               is
               another
               which
               he
               applies
               himselfe
               more
               directly
               against
               ,
               and
               therefore
               to
               this
               sixteenth
               Objection
               hee
               begging
               his
               answer
               thus
               ,
            
             Surely
             the
             aforesaid
             Reverend
             Brethren
             of
             New-England
             have
             these
             words
             ,
             but
             it
             seemeth
             to
             us
             the
             power
             (
             of
             a
             Synod
             )
             is
             not
             properly
             a
             power
             and
             exercise
             of
             government
             and
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             but
             a
             power
             of
             Doctrine
             ,
             and
             so
             a
             Synod
             is
             rather
             a
             Teaching
             then
             a
             governing
             Church
             :
             from
             whence
             (
             saith
             he
             )
             I
             inferre
             ,
             that
             our
             Brethren
             cannot
             deny
             a
             power
             of
             governing
             to
             a
             Synod
             ,
             but
             it
             is
             not
             so
             proper
             governing
             as
             Excommunication
             and
             Ordination
             performed
             in
             their
             Congregations
             ;
             but
             say
             I
             ,
             it
             is
             more
             properly
             governing
             as
             to
             make
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             of
             governing
             is
             a
             more
             Noble
             ,
             Emin●nt
             and
             higher
             act
             of
             governing
             (
             as
             is
             evident
             in
             the
             King
             and
             his
             Parliament
             )
             then
             the
             execution
             of
             ●hese
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             So
             then
             ,
             th●se
             former
             words
             of
             ours
             proposed
             in
             the
             Objection
             ,
             are
             wholly
             forsaken
             and
             left
             ,
             and
             instead
             of
             answering
             them
             ,
             he
             fals
             as
             we
             set
             upon
             other
             words
             which
             we
             have
             written
             elsewhere
             ,
             and
             applies
             himselfe
             to
             deale
             against
             those
             other
             .
             By
             which
             dealing
             the
             considerate
             Reader
             may
             judge
             whether
             the
             former
             words
             being
             thus
             handsomly
             forsaken
             and
             left
             ,
             do
             not
             still
             remaine
             in
             their
             strength
             :
             and
             whether
             it
             had
             not
             been
             as
             good
             never
             to
             have
             proposed
             them
             at
             all
             in
             his
             Objection
             ,
             as
             having
             proposed
             them
             to
             turne
             away
             directly
             and
             immediately
             from
             them
             unto
             other
             matters
             ,
             without
             returning
             one
             word
             of
             answer
             to
             the
             former
             .
             The
             wise
             in
             heart
             may
             consider
             what
             this
             doth
             import
             .
          
           
             But
             sich
             he
             is
             pleased
             to
             acquit
             the
             former
             and
             to
             apply
             himselfe
             to
             the
             other
             ,
             let
             us
             therefore
             leave
             the
             former
             in
             its
             strength
             and
             unshaken
             ,
             and
             consider
             of
             what
             he
             saith
             in
             this
             other
             .
          
           
           
             Wherein
             when
             he
             speakes
             of
             making
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             of
             governing
             ,
             either
             he
             me●nes
             this
             making
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             properly
             so
             called
             ,
             or
             else
             he
             meanes
             it
             onely
             of
             a
             Ministeriall
             power
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             in
             his
             name
             to
             com●and
             obedience
             thereto
             .
             And
             it
             seemes
             by
             the
             instance
             which
             he
             gives
             of
             the
             King
             and
             his
             Parliament
             ,
             that
             he
             intends
             the
             former
             sence
             .
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             the
             answer
             is
             that
             this
             Noble
             ,
             Eminent
             ,
             and
             high
             act
             of
             governing
             as
             he
             cals
             it
             ,
             doth
             not
             belong
             to
             any
             Synods
             upon
             earth
             ,
             but
             only
             to
             the
             Lord
             Iesus
             Christ
             in
             Heaven
             ,
             the
             Script●res
             abundantly
             witnessing
             ,
             that
             he
             only
             is
             the
             Lord
             and
             Law
             giver
             to
             his
             Church
             ,
             
               L●●
               .
               4.
               12.
               
               Isa
               .
            
             33.
             22.
             
             For
             the
             cleering
             of
             which
             point
             ,
             much
             needs
             not
             to
             be
             said
             ,
             considering
             that
             this
             learned
             Brother
             himselfe
             doth
             elsewhere
             directly
             and
             in
             expresse
             termes
             co●fesse
             as
             much
             as
             we
             desire
             in
             this
             matter
             .
             For
             in
             one
             place
             speaking
             in
             one
             place
             of
             a
             Power
             to
             prescribe
             rules
             and
             Lawes
             ,
             he
             doth
             not
             only
             distinguish
             them
             from
             Lawes
             p●operly
             so
             called
             by
             the
             word
             Directive
             ,
             calling
             them
             directive
             Lawes
             ,
             but
             also
             for
             further
             explaining
             his
             Mind
             ,
             annexeth
             these
             words
             .
             
               They
               are
               not
               properly
               Lawes
               which
               the
               Church
               prescribeth
               :
               Christ
               is
               the
               only
               Law-giver
               :
            
             Due
             Right
             ,
             Page
             395.
             
             And
             in
             the
             page
             following
             speaking
             of
             a
             Societies
             or
             a
             Synods
             power
             of
             making
             Lawes
             ,
             he
             addeth
             for
             explanation
             thus
             ,
             
               I
               take
               not
               here
               Lawes
               for
               Lawes
               properly
               so
               called
               ,
               but
               for
               Ministeriall
               directories
               ,
               having
               Ecclesiasticall
               Authority
               .
            
             So
             then
             the
             Church
             or
             the
             Synod
             hath
             no
             power
             at
             all
             to
             make
             Lawes
             properly
             so
             called
             ,
             for
             
               Christ
               ●s
               the
               onely
               Law
               giver
               :
            
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             the
             governing
             power
             of
             Sy●ods
             which
             our
             brother
             would
             prove
             by
             this
             Noble
             and
             Eminent
             and
             high
             power
             of
             making
             Lawes
             is
             not
             proved
             thereby
             at
             all
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             as
             this
             Noble
             and
             eminent
             power
             of
             making
             Lawes
             doth
             not
             belong
             to
             any
             Synods
             upon
             earth
             ,
             but
             to
             Christ
             only
             .
             And
             this
             may
             be
             an
             Answer
             to
             what
             he
             saith
             or
             a
             Synods
             power
             to
             make
             Lawes
             ,
             it
             Lawes
             be
             taken
             in
             their
             proper
             sense
             .
          
           
             But
             if
             he
             intend
             not
             this
             sense
             and
             meaning
             in
             the
             place
             we
             are
             speaking
             of
             ,
             but
             only
             the
             latter
             ,
             viz
             That
             Synods
             have
             power
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             Lawes
             and
             rules
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             to
             command
             obedience
             thereto
             ,
             then
             I
             confesse
             the
             answer
             in
             the
             7
             .
             th
             page
             thereof
             doth
             acknowledge
             such
             power
             to
             belong
             unto
             Synods
             ,
             but
             how
             this
             can
             prove
             their
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             government
             properly
             so
             called
             ,
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             thence
             inferre
             ,
             we
             for
             our
             parts
             do
             not
             yet
             perceive
             .
             For
             the
             power
             here
             described
             is
             but
             a
             meere
             Doctrinall
             power
             ,
             and
             we
             have
             given
             sundry
             instances
             in
             the
             Answer
             ,
             Pag.
             43.
             44.
             
             To
             shew
             that
             there
             may
             be
             a
             power
             by
             way
             of
             Doctrine
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             rules
             and
             Lawes
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             to
             command
             obedience
             thereto
             ,
             where
             yet
             there
             is
             no
             power
             by
             way
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Discipline
             to
             punish
             the
             breach
             of
             those
             rules
             ;
             which
             instance
             ,
             this
             Reverend
             brother
             doth
             not
             satisfie
             at
             all
             .
             And
             therefore
             though
             Synods
             have
             power
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             rules
             and
             Lawes
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             to
             command
             obedience
             thereto
             (
             which
             power
             we
             deny
             them
             not
             )
             yet
             that
             which
             he
             from
             thence
             would
             inferre
             ,
             that
             they
             have
             also
             a
             power
             of
             government
             and
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             doth
             not
             follow
             from
             thence
             at
             all
             ,
             unlesse
             we
             shall
             say
             ,
             that
             Doctrine
             and
             Discipline
             ,
             Doctrine
             and
             Iurisdiction
             or
             government
             are
             the
             same
             .
          
           
             Briefly
             thus
             :
             a
             power
             of
             mak●ng
             Lawes
             properly
             so
             called
             is
             a
             Noble
             and
             Eminent
             kind
             of
             government
             ,
             but
             this
             power
             doth
             not
             belong
             unto
             Synods
             ,
             but
             to
             Christ
             .
             A
             power
             of
             cleering
             up
             Christs
             Lawes
             ,
             and
             commanding
             in
             his
             name
             obedience
             
             thereunto
             doth
             belong
             unto
             Synods
             ,
             but
             this
             is
             no
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             government
             ,
             but
             a
             Ministeriall
             power
             of
             Doctrine
             ,
             and
             so
             still
             our
             Tenent
             doth
             stand
             ,
             that
             a
             Synod
             if
             it
             may
             be
             called
             a
             Church
             ,
             is
             rather
             a
             teaching
             then
             a
             governing
             Church
             .
          
           
             Secondly
             ,
             saith
             our
             Author
             ,
             Our
             brethren
             incline
             to
             make
             a
             Synod
             a
             teaching
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             We
             never
             yet
             absolutely
             yeelded
             that
             a
             Synod
             might
             be
             called
             a
             Church
             ,
             〈◊〉
             on
             the
             contrary
             ,
             
               Wee
               have
               said
               ,
               that
               unlesse
               it
               could
               be
               proved
               that
               in
               Scripture
               the
               name
               of
               a
               Church
               is
               given
               to
               a
               Synod
               ,
               we
               are
               not
               to
               be
               blamed
               though
               we
               give
               not
               a
               Synod
               that
               name
               .
            
             Answ
             .
             Pag.
             1.
             
             The
             most
             that
             we
             have
             yeelded
             in
             this
             point
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             for
             the
             name
             we
             will
             not
             contend
             ,
             and
             that
             if
             a
             Synod
             may
             be
             called
             a
             Church
             ,
             then
             sith
             they
             have
             Power
             by
             disputation
             to
             cleere
             up
             the
             rule
             ,
             they
             are
             rather
             a
             Teaching
             then
             a
             governing
             Church
             .
             
               Answer
               Pag.
               1.
               
               &
            
             7.
             
             This
             is
             all
             we
             have
             said
             ,
             and
             we
             desire
             our
             words
             may
             not
             be
             stretched
             beyond
             our
             intent
             and
             scope
             therein
             .
             But
             let
             us
             heare
             what
             our
             Brother
             would
             hence
             inferre
             .
          
           
             I
             inferre
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             that
             Synodicall
             teaching
             by
             giving
             out
             Decrees
             ,
             tying
             many
             Churches
             ,
             as
             our
             brethren
             of
             New-England
             and
             the
             forenamed
             Authors
             teach
             ,
             is
             an
             Ordinance
             of
             Christ
             ,
             that
             can
             be
             performed
             in
             no
             single
             Congregation
             on
             earth
             ,
             for
             a
             Doctrinall
             Cannon
             of
             one
             Congregation
             can
             lay
             any
             Ecclesiasticall
             tye
             upon
             many
             Churches
             ,
             Ergo
             by
             this
             reason
             our
             Congregations
             shall
             be
             dependant
             as
             were
             the
             Jewish
             Synagogues
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             When
             he
             saith
             the
             Brethren
             of
             New-England
             and
             the
             Authors
             of
             the
             Answer
             do
             teach
             a
             Synodicall
             teaching
             by
             giving
             out
             Decrees
             tying
             many
             Churches
             ,
             and
             aledgeth
             for
             proofe
             in
             his
             Margent
             ,
             Answ
             .
             7.
             to
             32.
             q.
             9.
             14.
             page
             43
             ,
             44.
             and
             Answer
             to
             Mr.
             Herle
             ,
             Chap.
             4.
             
             Pag.
             40.
             41
             with
             favour
             of
             so
             learned
             a
             man
             ,
             wee
             must
             returne
             this
             Answer
             ,
             that
             neither
             of
             the
             palces
             alledged
             will
             make
             good
             his
             purpose
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             as
             neither
             of
             them
             doth
             make
             any
             mention
             at
             all
             of
             the
             thing
             which
             he
             reports
             them
             to
             teach
             ,
             viz.
             Such
             Synodicall
             teaching
             as
             gives
             out
             Decrees
             tying
             many
             Churches
             .
             Let
             the
             places
             be
             viewed
             and
             the
             thing
             will
             be
             found
             as
             I
             say
             .
             And
             therefore
             how
             they
             can
             be
             said
             to
             teach
             that
             which
             they
             neither
             teach
             nor
             mention
             ,
             doth
             surmount
             my
             ability
             to
             conceive
             .
             If
             the
             Reader
             would
             know
             what
             it
             is
             that
             is
             taught
             in
             the
             places
             ,
             it
             is
             no
             more
             but
             this
             ,
             that
             in
             some
             Cases
             it
             is
             requisite
             that
             Churches
             should
             seeke
             for
             light
             and
             Counsell
             and
             advice
             from
             other
             Churches
             ,
             as
             Antioch
             ,
             did
             send
             unto
             Ierusalem
             in
             a
             Question
             which
             they
             wanted
             ability
             to
             determine
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             and
             that
             there
             ought
             to
             be
             Synods
             ,
             and
             that
             we
             thinke
             that
             meeting
             Act
             15.
             might
             be
             such
             an
             one
             .
             The
             first
             of
             these
             is
             taught
             in
             the
             form●●
             of
             the
             places
             ,
             and
             the
             other
             in
             the
             other
             .
             But
             for
             giving
             out
             Synodicall
             Decrees
             tying
             many
             Churches
             ,
             this
             same
             be
             it
             within
             the
             power
             of
             Synods
             or
             otherwise
             ,
             is
             〈◊〉
             taught
             at
             all
             in
             either
             of
             the
             places
             ,
             except
             wee
             shall
             say
             (
             which
             we
             thinke
             were
             unreasonable
             )
             that
             there
             can
             be
             no
             Synods
             ,
             nor
             consulting
             of
             other
             Churches
             for
             light
             and
             Counsell
             and
             advice
             ,
             but
             there
             must
             be
             in
             those
             other
             Churches
             so
             consulted
             withall
             ,
             a
             power
             to
             give
             out
             binding
             Decrees
             ,
             yea
             Decrees
             that
             shall
             bind
             or
             tye
             
             many
             Churches
             .
             We
             thinke
             this
             latter
             doth
             no
             wayes
             necessarily
             follow
             upon
             the
             former
             ;
             and
             therefore
             though
             the
             places
             alledged
             do
             speake
             to
             the
             former
             ,
             yet
             the
             latter
             which
             this
             Author
             reports
             them
             to
             teach
             ,
             they
             do
             not
             teach
             at
             all
             .
          
           
             Secondly
             ,
             I
             Answer
             further
             ,
             that
             if
             such
             a
             Doctrine
             were
             indeed
             taught
             in
             the
             places
             by
             him
             alledged
             or
             any
             other
             ,
             yet
             the
             inference
             which
             he
             would
             thence
             bring
             in
             ,
             
               That
               then
               our
               Congregations
               shall
               be
               dependant
               as
               were
               the
               Iewish
               Synagogues
               ,
            
             Th●s
             same
             doth
             not
             follow
             at
             all
             :
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             the
             Synagogues
             were
             dependant
             on
             the
             Supreame
             Synedrion
             not
             only
             for
             light
             and
             Counsell
             ,
             no
             nor
             only
             for
             Doctrinall
             Cannons
             or
             Decrees
             ,
             but
             also
             for
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Discipline
             ,
             that
             Synodrion
             being
             their
             supreame
             Court
             ,
             to
             whose
             sentence
             they
             were
             all
             bound
             under
             paine
             of
             Death
             to
             submit
             ,
             as
             is
             cleere
             ,
             Deut.
             17.
             11
             ,
             12.
             
             And
             therefore
             if
             it
             were
             granted
             (
             which
             yet
             we
             do
             not
             see
             proved
             )
             that
             Synods
             may
             give
             out
             Decrees
             and
             Doctrinall
             Cannons
             ,
             that
             shall
             tye
             many
             Churches
             ,
             it
             doth
             not
             follow
             that
             our
             Congregations
             shall
             therefore
             be
             dependant
             as
             were
             the
             Iewish
             Synagogues
             ,
             except
             it
             were
             also
             proved
             that
             they
             must
             depend
             upon
             Synods
             in
             point
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Discipline
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             in
             point
             of
             Doctrine
             ,
             yea
             and
             so
             depend
             as
             that
             the
             sentence
             of
             those
             Synods
             must
             be
             obeyed
             under
             paine
             of
             death
             .
             Sure
             the
             Synagogues
             and
             every
             member
             of
             them
             were
             in
             this
             sort
             dependant
             upon
             the
             Supreame
             Synedrion
             :
             but
             we
             hope
             〈◊〉
             Reverend
             brother
             will
             not
             say
             that
             Congregations
             must
             in
             this
             sort
             be
             dependant
             upon
             Synods
             .
             At
             the
             least
             wise
             this
             we
             hope
             he
             will
             not
             deny
             ,
             that
             every
             member
             of
             a
             Church
             is
             bound
             to
             depend
             upon
             the
             Pastor
             of
             that
             Church
             in
             point
             of
             Doctrine
             ;
             and
             yet
             it
             will
             not
             follow
             that
             he
             must
             depend
             upon
             one
             Pastor
             alone
             in
             point
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             D●scipline
             .
             And
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             Doctrine
             may
             be
             dispenced
             by
             one
             Pastor
             alone
             ,
             but
             Discipline
             must
             be
             dispenced
             by
             a
             Church
             ,
             which
             one
             Pastor
             alone
             cannot
             be
             .
             And
             therefore
             if
             Congregations
             were
             to
             be
             dependant
             upon
             Synods
             in
             point
             of
             Doctrine
             ,
             it
             would
             not
             follow
             that
             they
             must
             bee
             dependant
             in
             point
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             Discipline
             .
          
           
             Thirdly
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             It
             is
             a
             begging
             of
             the
             question
             to
             make
             Ierusalem
             the
             Supreame
             Church
             and
             the
             Synagogues
             dependant
             Churches
             ;
             because
             it
             it
             was
             lawfull
             only
             at
             Ierusalem
             to
             Sacrafice
             ;
             for
             I
             hold
             that
             Ierusalem
             was
             a
             dependant
             Church
             no
             lesse
             then
             the
             smallest
             Synagogues
             in
             all
             their
             Trybes
             .
             
               And
               so
               he
               proceedeth
               largely
               ,
               to
               shew
               that
               sacrificing
               at
            
             Ierusalem
             
               did
               not
               make
            
             Ierusalem
             Supreame
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             It
             this
             were
             even
             so
             as
             is
             pleaded
             ,
             yet
             that
             which
             we
             have
             said
             of
             the
             compleatnesse
             of
             the
             Synagogues
             and
             of
             their
             dependancie
             is
             not
             at
             all
             removed
             thereby
             :
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             we
             do
             not
             make
             the
             Synagogues
             dependant
             nor
             Ierusalem
             supreame
             ,
             meerely
             upon
             this
             ground
             ,
             because
             Ierusalem
             alone
             was
             the
             place
             of
             Sacrificing
             ,
             but
             this
             is
             the
             ground
             upon
             which
             chiefly
             we
             go
             ,
             that
             at
             Ierusalem
             was
             the
             Synedrion
             upon
             whom
             all
             Israell
             must
             depend
             for
             judgement
             ,
             and
             from
             whose
             sentence
             there
             was
             no
             appeale
             ,
             which
             ground
             wee
             still
             thinke
             doth
             prove
             both
             the
             incomplearnesse
             of
             the
             Synagogues
             ,
             and
             the
             supremacie
             of
             the
             Synedrion
             ,
             and
             the
             contrary
             to
             this
             must
             be
             cleered
             if
             our
             Tenent
             in
             this
             matter
             be
             removed
             .
             True
             it
             is
             ,
             we
             thinke
             it
             some
             argument
             of
             the
             Synagogues
             incompleatnesse
             and
             imperfection
             that
             they
             were
             not
             permitted
             to
             enjoy
             all
             the
             Ordinances
             which
             were
             of
             ordinary
             
             use
             :
             but
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Ierusalem
             we
             do
             not
             place
             in
             this
             only
             ,
             that
             there
             was
             the
             place
             for
             Sacrifice
             but
             in
             this
             withall
             that
             the
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             was
             there
             ,
             upon
             which
             all
             Israell
             must
             depend
             ,
             and
             from
             the
             which
             there
             must
             be
             no
             appeale
             .
             And
             yet
             this
             supremacie
             we
             do
             not
             place
             in
             Ierusalem
             considered
             a
             part
             from
             the
             Synedrion
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             Synedrion
             it selfe
             .
          
           
             
               And
               therefore
               ,
               whereas
               he
               saith
               ,
               Pag.
               415.
               
               That
               we
               might
               as
               well
               conclude
               that
               all
               the
               Cities
               and
               Incorporations
               of
            
             England
             
               are
               dependant
               upon
            
             London
             ,
             
               inasmuch
               as
               the
               Parliament
               useth
               there
               to
               sit
               ,
            
             I
             conceive
             the
             comparison
             doth
             not
             sute
             ,
             because
             as
             we
             do
             not
             place
             the
             supremacie
             in
             London
             or
             in
             Westminster
             ,
             considered
             apart
             from
             the
             Parliament
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             Parliament
             which
             useth
             there
             to
             sit
             ,
             so
             we
             place
             not
             the
             supremacie
             amongst
             the
             Iewes
             in
             Ierusalem
             considered
             apart
             from
             the
             Synedrion
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             Synedrion
             it selfe
             ,
             which
             was
             there
             seated
             .
             But
             because
             our
             Reverend
             brother
             in
             the
             latter
             end
             of
             this
             16
             .
             th
             Objection
             bringeth
             in
             this
             particular
             of
             Ierusalems
             supremacie
             by
             reason
             of
             the
             Sacrifices
             ,
             with
             Others
             say
             ,
             therefore
             I
             conceive
             he
             intends
             not
             us
             therein
             ,
             but
             some
             body
             else
             ,
             and
             therefore
             I
             will
             proceed
             to
             the
             next
             wherein
             our selves
             are
             concerned
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             VII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             lawfulnesse
             or
             necessity
             of
             Appeales
             doe
             prove
             a
             superiority
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             of
             sundry
             sayings
             of
             our
             Author
             which
             seeme
             to
             interfere
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               his
               page
               422.
               he
               propounds
               a
               19
               .
               th
               Objection
               to
               this
               effect
               ,
            
             If
             the
             Government
             of
             consociated
             Churches
             be
             warranted
             by
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             then
             this
             light
             of
             Nature
             being
             common
             to
             us
             in
             civill
             as
             in
             Ecclesiasticall
             causes
             ,
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             every
             City
             governed
             with
             rulers
             within
             it selfe
             ▪
             must
             be
             subordinate
             to
             a
             Classe
             of
             many
             Cities
             ,
             and
             that
             Classe
             to
             a
             Nationall
             meeting
             of
             all
             the
             Cities
             :
             and
             the
             Nationall
             government
             to
             be
             a
             Catholike
             or
             Oecumenicke
             civill
             Court
             —
             .
             And
             because
             by
             the
             same
             light
             of
             Nature
             there
             must
             bee
             some
             finall
             and
             supreame
             Iudgement
             of
             controversies
             ,
             least
             Appeales
             should
             be
             spun
             out
             in
             infinitum
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             proved
             that
             this
             supremacie
             lyeth
             not
             in
             a
             Congregation
             .
             
               And
               in
               the
               Margent
               he
               citeth
               Mr.
            
             Tompson
             
               and
               my selfe
               in
               page
               16
               and
               page
               10
               ,
               of
               the
               Answer
               ,
               as
               Authors
               of
               this
               last
               bassis
               in
               the
               O●ectjection
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             It
             is
             true
             that
             in
             one
             of
             those
             pages
             alledged
             we
             speake
             to
             the
             like
             purpose
             
             as
             here
             is
             reported
             .
             For
             we
             there
             suppose
             it
             to
             be
             cleere
             by
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             that
             there
             must
             be
             some
             finall
             and
             supreame
             judgement
             of
             Causes
             ,
             and
             that
             unlesse
             it
             be
             determined
             where
             that
             supremacie
             doth
             lye
             ,
             (
             which
             we
             account
             the
             very
             thing
             in
             question
             )
             we
             say
             the
             usefulnesse
             and
             necessity
             of
             Appeales
             may
             be
             granted
             ,
             and
             yet
             we
             shall
             be
             still
             at
             uncertainty
             about
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             and
             as
             much
             to
             seeke
             as
             before
             ,
             because
             that
             there
             ought
             to
             be
             appeales
             til
             you
             come
             to
             the
             highest
             is
             one
             thing
             ,
             and
             that
             a
             Synod
             and
             not
             a
             Congregation
             is
             the
             highest
             is
             another
             .
             To
             this
             purpose
             we
             have
             written
             in
             one
             of
             those
             Pages
             ,
             the
             summe
             whereof
             is
             this
             much
             ;
             that
             though
             the
             usefulnesse
             of
             Appeales
             till
             you
             come
             to
             the
             highest
             be
             granted
             ,
             yet
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             in
             matter
             of
             Iudicature
             is
             not
             concluded
             thereby
             .
          
           
             Now
             what
             doth
             our
             Reverend
             Brother
             returne
             in
             his
             Answer
             ?
             Doth
             he
             prove
             the
             contrary
             to
             what
             is
             here
             affirmed
             by
             us
             ?
             Doth
             he
             cleere
             it
             sufficiently
             ,
             that
             if
             it
             bee
             once
             granted
             that
             there
             must
             be
             Appeales
             till
             you
             come
             to
             the
             highest
             ,
             then
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             must
             inevitably
             follow
             ?
             I
             conceive
             the
             necessity
             of
             this
             consequence
             had
             need
             to
             be
             cleered
             ,
             if
             that
             which
             we
             have
             said
             be
             sufficiently
             answered
             .
             But
             doth
             our
             Brother
             cleere
             this
             ?
             Or
             doth
             he
             so
             much
             as
             once
             attempt
             the
             cleering
             thereof
             ?
             Surely
             to
             speake
             freely
             what
             I
             find
             ,
             I
             find
             nothing
             that
             looketh
             that
             way
             ,
             and
             therfore
             cannot
             but
             wonder
             why
             our
             opinion
             should
             be
             alledged
             in
             this
             Objection
             ,
             and
             so
             his
             Reader
             be
             led
             into
             expectation
             of
             some
             sufficient
             Answer
             thereto
             ,
             and
             then
             the
             answer
             which
             he
             returnes
             to
             be
             taken
             up
             in
             other
             matters
             ,
             our
             opinion
             proposed
             in
             the
             Objection
             ,
             being
             wholly
             in
             his
             Answer
             left
             untouched
             .
             If
             that
             saying
             of
             ours
             be
             not
             sound
             ,
             why
             doth
             he
             not
             returne
             some
             answer
             ?
             If
             it
             be
             sound
             and
             good
             ,
             why
             doth
             he
             make
             an
             Objection
             of
             it
             ,
             and
             so
             breed
             an
             apprehension
             in
             weake
             Readers
             of
             its
             unsoundnesse
             ,
             and
             put
             them
             in
             hope
             of
             a
             confutation
             ,
             when
             no
             such
             thing
             is
             performed
             ?
             I
             leave
             it
             to
             the
             wise
             in
             heart
             to
             consider
             what
             this
             doth
             argue
             .
          
           
             
               Neverthelesse
               ,
               let
               us
               consider
               of
               what
               he
               doth
               returne
               for
               Answer
               ,
               Page
            
             423.
             
             First
             he
             saith
             ,
             Appeales
             being
             warranted
             by
             the
             Counsell
             which
             Iethro
             gave
             to
             Moses
             —
             cannot
             but
             be
             naturall
             ?
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Suppose
             this
             be
             so
             ,
             what
             can
             there
             be
             concluded
             hence
             ,
             that
             makes
             against
             us
             ?
             cannot
             appeales
             be
             Naturall
             ,
             but
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             must
             needs
             follow
             ?
             If
             there
             must
             be
             an
             highest
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             be
             yeelded
             that
             the
             Synod
             and
             not
             the
             Congregation
             is
             that
             highest
             ?
             I
             conceive
             this
             needs
             not
             to
             be
             yeelded
             at
             all
             ,
             and
             therefore
             though
             Appeales
             be
             Naturall
             ,
             I
             see
             not
             what
             is
             gained
             thereby
             .
          
           
             Againe
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             God
             hath
             appointed
             that
             the
             supremacie
             should
             lye
             within
             the
             bounds
             of
             every
             free
             Monarchy
             or
             State
             ,
             so
             that
             there
             can
             be
             no
             Appeale
             to
             any
             Oecumenicall
             or
             Catholike
             civill
             Church
             ,
             for
             that
             is
             against
             the
             independant
             power
             that
             God
             hath
             given
             to
             States
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Let
             this
             be
             granted
             also
             ,
             and
             are
             we
             not
             still
             where
             we
             were
             before
             ?
             Is
             there
             in
             this
             any
             thing
             at
             all
             that
             doth
             make
             for
             the
             removall
             of
             our
             opinion
             ,
             as
             himselfe
             hath
             see
             it
             down
             in
             his
             Objection
             ?
             We
             may
             truly
             say
             we
             see
             it
             not
             .
          
           
             
               No
               ,
               nor
               in
               that
               which
               doth
               follow
               ,
            
             viz.
             But
             in
             the
             Church
             it
             is
             farre
             otherwise
             ,
             for
             God
             hath
             appoynted
             no
             vissible
             Monarchy
             in
             his
             Church
             ,
             nor
             no
             such
             independency
             of
             policie
             within
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             Classicall
             Provinciall
             or
             Nationall
             Church
             .
          
           
           
             Answ
             .
             For
             that
             which
             is
             said
             of
             a
             visible
             Monarchy
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             I
             confesse
             it
             is
             true
             ,
             God
             hath
             appointed
             none
             such
             .
             But
             for
             the
             rest
             ,
             of
             these
             words
             ,
             sith
             they
             containe
             an
             expresse
             denyall
             of
             the
             supremacie
             of
             all
             Ecclesiasticall
             Iudicatures
             ,
             except
             it
             be
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             I
             would
             gladly
             know
             how
             our
             Tenent
             afore
             expressed
             is
             disproved
             ,
             or
             how
             the
             necessity
             of
             that
             Consequence
             afore
             mentioned
             is
             at
             all
             cleered
             hereby
             .
             If
             there
             be
             no
             independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             Congregations
             ,
             nor
             yet
             in
             any
             Synods
             exc●pt
             it
             be
             the
             Oecumenicall
             ,
             doth
             this
             prove
             that
             the
             supremacie
             doth
             lye
             in
             Synods
             and
             not
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ?
             Nothing
             lesse
             :
             for
             how
             can
             our
             Brother
             prove
             that
             it
             lyes
             in
             the
             one
             and
             not
             in
             the
             other
             ,
             by
             saying
             as
             here
             he
             doth
             ,
             that
             indeed
             it
             lyes
             in
             neither
             ?
             Or
             how
             is
             that
             Consequence
             made
             good
             ,
             that
             if
             there
             must
             be
             appeales
             till
             we
             come
             to
             the
             highest
             ,
             then
             the
             Synod
             is
             the
             highest
             ?
             How
             is
             this
             I
             say
             made
             good
             by
             affirming
             ,
             that
             neither
             the
             Congregation
             nor
             the
             Synod
             is
             the
             highest
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             I
             must
             confesse
             it
             passeth
             my
             understanding
             to
             conceive
             ,
             how
             the
             denying
             of
             a
             thing
             should
             be
             the
             proving
             and
             cleering
             thereof
             .
             And
             yet
             except
             this
             be
             admitted
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             our
             apprehension
             in
             the
             matter
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             is
             at
             all
             disproved
             .
             For
             whereas
             we
             say
             ,
             Appeales
             may
             be
             granted
             and
             yet
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             will
             not
             follow
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             for
             the
             disproving
             of
             what
             wee
             apprehend
             herein
             ,
             doth
             bring
             nothing
             in
             the
             place
             wee
             have
             in
             hand
             but
             only
             this
             ,
             that
             the
             Supremacie
             doth
             neither
             lye
             in
             the
             Congregation
             nor
             in
             the
             Synod
             .
             Which
             is
             no
             disproving
             of
             us
             all
             ,
             except
             as
             I
             said
             ,
             that
             the
             denying
             of
             a
             thing
             may
             suffice
             for
             the
             confirming
             and
             cleering
             thereof
             .
             For
             I
             conceive
             if
             we
             be
             disproved
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             must
             be
             proved
             and
             cleered
             ,
             which
             here
             our
             Brother
             doth
             not
             ,
             but
             on
             the
             contrary
             denies
             the
             same
             .
          
           
             
               Furthermore
               ,
               if
               there
               be
               no
               independency
               of
               policie
               within
               a
               Congregation
               ,
               a
               Classicall
               ,
               Provinciall
               or
               Nationall
               Church
               ,
            
             As
             here
             our
             Brother
             affirmeth
             ,
             then
             what
             shall
             become
             of
             that
             which
             he
             tels
             us
             elsewhere
             ,
             viz.
             Page
             483.
             
             
               That
               that
               remedie
               of
               our
               Saviour
               ,
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
               is
               not
               needfull
               in
               any
               Church
               above
               a
               Nationall
               ?
            
             For
             sure
             if
             there
             be
             no
             independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             any
             of
             the
             lesser
             Churches
             ,
             nor
             yet
             in
             the
             Nationall
             Church
             ,
             one
             would
             thinke
             that
             of
             our
             Saviour
             should
             be
             needfull
             in
             some
             Church
             above
             the
             Nationall
             .
             Or
             if
             it
             be
             nor
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             Nationall
             ,
             then
             one
             would
             thinke
             there
             should
             be
             some
             indepencie
             of
             policie
             in
             the
             Nationall
             Church
             ,
             or
             in
             some
             of
             the
             former
             .
             For
             my
             part
             I
             know
             not
             how
             this
             difficulty
             will
             be
             expedited
             ,
             I
             meane
             how
             both
             these
             sayings
             of
             our
             Brother
             can
             stand
             good
             ,
             except
             we
             shall
             say
             that
             which
             I
             suppose
             he
             will
             not
             say
             ,
             viz.
             That
             independencie
             of
             policie
             is
             no
             where
             .
             And
             yet
             I
             cannot
             see
             but
             this
             must
             be
             said
             ,
             if
             both
             the
             other
             sayings
             stand
             good
             ?
             For
             if
             independencie
             of
             policie
             be
             neither
             in
             the
             Nationall
             Church
             nor
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             it
             ,
             nor
             in
             any
             Church
             below
             it
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             where
             we
             shall
             have
             it
             .
          
           
             Againe
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             no
             independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             any
             of
             the
             Churches
             afore
             named
             ,
             what
             shall
             we
             say
             to
             that
             passage
             where
             our
             Brother
             doth
             verily
             professe
             ,
             
               That
               he
               cannot
               see
               what
               power
               of
               Jurisdiction
               to
               censure
               Scandals
               can
               be
               in
               a
               generall
               Councell
               ,
               affirming
               further
               ,
               that
               there
               might
               be
               some
               meerly
               Doctrinall
               power
               if
               such
               a
               Councell
               could
               be
               had
               ,
               and
               that
               is
               all
               ,
               Pag
            
             482.
             
             For
             if
             there
             be
             no
             Independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             any
             Church
             below
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             
             one
             would
             thinke
             there
             should
             be
             in
             the
             generall
             Councill
             some
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             to
             censure
             Scandals
             ,
             yea
             and
             an
             independant
             power
             too
             ▪
             Or
             if
             there
             be
             not
             such
             power
             in
             the
             generall
             Councill
             ,
             nor
             yet
             in
             the
             Nationall
             Church
             ,
             nor
             in
             any
             Church
             below
             the
             Nationall
             ,
             we
             must
             then
             say
             there
             is
             no
             independant
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             to
             censure
             Scandals
             in
             any
             Church
             upon
             earth
             .
             Which
             latter
             if
             it
             be
             not
             owned
             ,
             as
             I
             conceive
             our
             Brother
             will
             no●
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             the
             other
             two
             can
             both
             stand
             .
          
           
             Though
             appeales
             be
             warranted
             both
             in
             Church
             and
             State
             by
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             yet
             appeales
             to
             Exotique
             and
             forraigne
             Judicatures
             is
             not
             warranted
             by
             any
             such
             light
             ,
             but
             rather
             the
             contrary
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Let
             this
             be
             granted
             also
             ,
             and
             are
             we
             ever
             a
             whit
             neerer
             to
             the
             point
             ,
             then
             before
             ?
             Is
             this
             good
             arguing
             ,
             appeales
             to
             exotique
             Indicatures
             are
             not
             warrantable
             ,
             Ergo
             a
             Synod
             and
             not
             the
             Congregation
             is
             the
             supreame
             Iudicature
             ?
             Is
             this
             Consequence
             strong
             and
             cleere
             ?
             If
             it
             be
             not
             ,
             how
             is
             our
             Tenent
             removed
             ?
             If
             our
             Brother
             intend
             it
             not
             for
             a
             removall
             thereof
             ,
             why
             is
             it
             brought
             in
             for
             answer
             to
             an
             Objection
             proposed
             by
             himselfe
             as
             ours
             ?
          
           
             Further
             ,
             let
             this
             sentence
             be
             compared
             with
             the
             former
             immediately
             preceding
             ,
             and
             more
             difficulties
             still
             arise
             .
             For
             in
             this
             he
             tels
             us
             we
             see
             ,
             
               That
               appeales
               to
               forraigne
               Judicatures
               are
               not
               warrantable
            
             ;
             And
             in
             the
             other
             he
             tels
             us
             as
             wee
             heard
             afore
             ,
             
               That
               there
               is
               no
               independencie
               of
               policie
               within
               a
               Congregation
               ,
               a
               Classicall
               ,
               Provinciall
               ,
               or
               Nationall
               Church
               .
            
             Now
             to
             find
             how
             these
             things
             do
             agree
             ,
             I
             am
             at
             a
             losse
             ,
             for
             if
             there
             bee
             no
             independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             nor
             the
             other
             Churches
             mentioned
             ,
             I
             should
             have
             thought
             ,
             it
             might
             have
             been
             lawfull
             to
             have
             appealed
             from
             them
             to
             others
             .
             For
             why
             may
             there
             not
             bee
             appeales
             from
             them
             in
             whom
             no
             independen●ie
             of
             Policie
             is
             seated
             ?
             Yet
             now
             we
             are
             restrained
             from
             such
             appeales
             ,
             for
             that
             all
             other
             Iudicatures
             are
             accounted
             forraigne
             and
             Exotique
             .
             So
             that
             of
             two
             sentences
             the
             one
             immediately
             following
             upon
             the
             other
             ,
             the
             former
             tels
             us
             there
             is
             no
             independencie
             of
             policie
             in
             any
             of
             the
             Churches
             mentioned
             ,
             which
             are
             Domesticque
             and
             neere
             ,
             and
             the
             other
             tels
             us
             that
             other
             Churches
             are
             so
             Exotique
             and
             forraigne
             ,
             that
             appeales
             to
             them
             are
             unwarrantable
             :
             and
             what
             to
             say
             for
             the
             reconciling
             of
             these
             things
             ,
             I
             must
             confesse
             I
             find
             not
             .
          
           
             I
             grant
             it
             is
             true
             ,
             Appeales
             to
             Exotique
             and
             forraigne
             Iudicatures
             are
             not
             warrantable
             .
             But
             why
             are
             we
             not
             certified
             what
             Iudicatures
             are
             to
             be
             accounted
             Exotique
             and
             Forraigne
             ?
             For
             here
             I
             conceive
             lyes
             the
             pinch
             of
             the
             question
             ;
             and
             unlesse
             this
             be
             determined
             ,
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             is
             still
             left
             at
             uncertainty
             .
             For
             as
             in
             civill
             states
             there
             are
             many
             Cities
             and
             Townes
             which
             have
             independent
             power
             within
             themselves
             ,
             as
             
               Geneva
               ,
               Strasburgh
               ,
               Zuricke
               ,
               Basill
               ,
            
             and
             many
             others
             ,
             and
             Appeales
             from
             any
             of
             these
             ,
             though
             to
             the
             City
             or
             Town
             next
             adjoyning
             ,
             would
             be
             to
             a
             Iudicature
             Exotique
             or
             forraigne
             ,
             so
             some
             are
             apt
             to
             conceive
             the
             like
             of
             Congregationall
             Churches
             .
             And
             therefore
             it
             had
             need
             to
             be
             cleered
             that
             Appeales
             from
             such
             Churches
             is
             not
             to
             Exotique
             and
             forraigne
             Iudicatures
             ;
             for
             if
             this
             be
             not
             cleered
             ,
             the
             unlawfulnesse
             of
             Appeales
             to
             forraigne
             and
             exotique
             Powers
             may
             be
             granted
             ,
             and
             the
             question
             will
             remaine
             uncleered
             .
          
           
             Church
             Appeales
             though
             warranted
             by
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             supposed
             they
             be
             rationall
             ,
             and
             grounded
             on
             good
             reason
             ,
             as
             that
             either
             the
             
             matter
             belong
             not
             to
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             or
             then
             it
             bee
             certain
             or
             morally
             presumed
             the
             Congregation
             will
             be
             partiall
             or
             unjust
             ,
             or
             the
             businesse
             bee
             difficill
             and
             intricate
             ;
             and
             if
             appeales
             be
             groundlesse
             and
             unjust
             ,
             neither
             Christ
             nor
             Natures
             light
             doth
             warrant
             them
             .
             Yea
             in
             such
             case
             the
             supremacie
             from
             which
             no
             man
             can
             lawfully
             appeale
             ,
             lyeth
             sometime
             in
             the
             Congregation
             sometime
             in
             the
             Classicall
             Presbytery
             ,
             so
             as
             it
             is
             unlawfull
             to
             appeale
             for
             
               Illud
               tantum
               possumus
               quod
               jure
               possumus
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             short
             summe
             is
             thus
             much
             ,
             that
             appeales
             are
             then
             lawfull
             when
             there
             is
             just
             ground
             and
             reason
             for
             them
             ,
             otherwise
             they
             are
             unlawfull
             .
             Now
             first
             of
             all
             how
             doth
             this
             prove
             (
             for
             we
             would
             still
             keep
             to
             the
             point
             )
             the
             necessity
             of
             that
             Consequence
             whereof
             we
             speak
             afore
             ,
             viz.
             That
             if
             appeales
             be
             lawfull
             ,
             then
             there
             is
             a
             supremacie
             of
             Syno●s
             over
             Congregations
             .
             I
             conceive
             it
             is
             not
             proved
             hereby
             all
             ;
             but
             contrarily
             appeales
             may
             be
             granted
             lawfull
             ,
             when
             there
             is
             just
             reason
             and
             ground
             for
             them
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Synods
             over
             Congregations
             is
             still
             uncle●red
             .
             Nextly
             ,
             it
             still
             remaines
             a
             question
             ,
             who
             must
             be
             judge
             of
             the
             reasonablenesse
             of
             the
             Appeale
             and
             of
             those
             cases
             that
             are
             put
             to
             shew
             when
             they
             are
             reasonable
             ,
             viz.
             That
             the
             matter
             belongs
             not
             to
             the
             Congregation
             and
             the
             rest
             that
             are
             named
             :
             and
             unlesse
             it
             be
             cleered
             to
             whom
             it
             belongs
             to
             judge
             these
             things
             ,
             we
             are
             still
             left
             at
             uncertainty
             ,
             in
             the
             maine
             matter
             ,
             viz.
             In
             whom
             the
             supremacie
             doth
             lye
             ,
             from
             whom
             we
             may
             not
             appeale
             .
             For
             to
             say
             as
             our
             Reverend
             Author
             doth
             ,
             
               That
               in
               some
               case
               the
               supremacie
               from
               which
               no
               man
               can
               lawfully
               appeale
               ,
               lyeth
               in
               the
               Congregation
               ,
               and
               sometimes
               it
               doth
               not
               :
               Appeales
               when
               they
               are
               grounded
               upon
               good
               reason
               are
               warrantable
               ,
               else
               they
               are
               not
               :
               when
               the
               matter
               belongs
               not
               to
               the
               Congregation
               or
               the
               Congregation
               will
               be
               partiall
               and
               unjust
               ,
               or
               when
               the
               businesse
               is
               diffic●ll
               and
               intricate
               ,
               then
               we
               may
               appeale
               from
               the
               Congregation
               ,
               else
               we
               may
               not
               ,
            
             These
             things
             I
             say
             doe
             not
             cleere
             the
             matter
             at
             all
             ,
             because
             still
             the
             question
             remaines
             who
             must
             be
             judge
             of
             these
             things
             ,
             whether
             the
             party
             appealing
             ,
             or
             the
             Congregation
             from
             whom
             ,
             or
             the
             Synod
             to
             whom
             the
             appeale
             is
             made
             :
             and
             unlesse
             this
             be
             determined
             ,
             the
             things
             mentioned
             alledged
             by
             our
             Brother
             do
             afford
             us
             small
             help
             in
             the
             matter
             for
             the
             cleering
             of
             it
             .
             And
             therefore
             ,
             what
             we
             said
             in
             the
             Answer
             doth
             still
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             remaine
             sound
             ,
             
               viz.
               That
               there
               must
               be
               some
               finall
               and
               supreame
               judgement
               that
               controversies
               may
               not
               by
               appeales
               after
               appeales
               be
               spun
               out
               in
            
             infinitum
             ,
             
               and
               to
               determine
               where
               that
               supremacie
               doth
               lye
               ,
               is
               the
               maine
               question
               ,
               which
               unlesse
               it
               be
               determined
               ,
               the
               usefulnesse
               of
               appeales
               may
               be
               granted
               ,
               and
               yet
               we
               shall
               be
               still
               at
               uncertainty
               about
               the
               thing
               in
               question
               and
               as
               much
               to
               seeke
               as
               before
               ,
               because
               that
               there
               ought
               to
               be
               appeales
               till
               you
               come
               to
               the
               highest
               is
               one
               thing
               ,
               and
               that
               a
               Synod
               and
               n●t
               the
               Congregation
               is
               the
               highest
               is
               another
               .
            
             Now
             whether
             our
             Brother
             in
             that
             which
             we
             have
             hitherto
             heard
             have
             sufficiently
             cleered
             it
             unto
             us
             ,
             that
             we
             may
             know
             where
             this
             supremacie
             doth
             lye
             ,
             I
             leave
             it
             to
             the
             Iudicious
             to
             consider
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             VIII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             Antioch
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             
             Had
             right
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             controversie
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             if
             they
             had
             been
             able
             ;
             and
             whether
             their
             sending
             to
             Jerusalem
             for
             helpe
             ,
             or
             their
             knowledge
             that
             other
             Churches
             were
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             evill
             ,
             or
             the
             party
             among
             themselves
             who
             were
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             doe
             prove
             the
             contrary
             .
             And
             of
             supremacy
             of
             power
             in
             Congregations
             .
          
           
             
               BVt
               though
               our
               Author
               doe
               not
               cleere
               it
               to
               us
               where
               the
               supremacie
               doth
               lye
               yet
               in
               this
               pag
               423
               ,
               and
               424.
               
               He
               useth
               an
               argument
               from
               the
               practise
               of
               the
               Church
               of
            
             Antioch
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             
             
               And
               our
               own
               Doctrine
               concerning
               the
               same
               to
               prove
               that
               it
               doth
               not
               lye
               in
               the
               Congregation
               ,
               which
               argument
               we
               are
               willing
               to
               consider
               .
               His
               words
               are
               those
               .
            
             That
             supremacie
             of
             power
             should
             bee
             in
             a
             Congregation
             without
             any
             power
             of
             appealing
             ,
             I
             thinke
             our
             Brethren
             cannot
             teach
             .
             For
             when
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             cannot
             judge
             a
             matter
             concerning
             the
             necessity
             of
             keeping
             Moses
             Law
             ,
             they
             by
             Natures
             direction
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             2.
             
             Decree
             to
             send
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             and
             others
             to
             Jerusalem
             ,
             to
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ,
             as
             to
             an
             higher
             Judicature
             ,
             that
             there
             truth
             may
             be
             determined
             :
             and
             then
             he
             addeth
             that
             
               Mr.
               Tompson
            
             and
             my selfe
             do
             teach
             that
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             had
             jus
             ,
             power
             to
             judge
             and
             determine
             the
             controversie
             ,
             but
             because
             of
             the
             difficulty
             ,
             had
             not
             light
             to
             judge
             thereof
             (
             alledging
             for
             this
             in
             the
             Margent
             the
             answer
             ,
             Chap.
             4.
             
             Page
             42.
             )
             Ergo
             saith
             he
             ,
             they
             must
             acknowledge
             Appeales
             by
             Natures
             light
             warrantable
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             wee
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             That
             appeales
             are
             warrantable
             ,
             and
             warrantable
             by
             Natures
             light
             till
             we
             come
             to
             the
             supreame
             judicatorie
             ,
             this
             we
             deny
             not
             ,
             but
             have
             formerly
             yeelded
             no
             lesse
             .
             But
             for
             that
             our
             Brother
             here
             aymes
             at
             ,
             viz.
             Appeales
             from
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             (
             as
             not
             being
             supreame
             )
             to
             another
             Iudicatory
             ,
             this
             we
             conceive
             is
             not
             proved
             by
             the
             example
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             ,
             nor
             by
             any
             thing
             that
             we
             have
             written
             concerning
             the
             same
             And
             the
             reason
             it
             because
             Antioch
             had
             right
             and
             Authority
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             matter
             amongst
             themselves
             if
             ability
             had
             served
             thereto
             :
             and
             their
             sending
             to
             Ierusalem
             for
             helpe
             may
             argue
             want
             of
             agreement
             ,
             or
             imperfection
             of
             light
             ,
             but
             argues
             no
             want
             of
             Authority
             or
             right
             within
             themselves
             .
             For
             it
             is
             plain
             verse
             2
             ,
             
             that
             Antioch
             did
             endeavour
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             matter
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             and
             had
             much
             disputation
             about
             it
             for
             that
             end
             ,
             afore
             there
             was
             any
             speech
             of
             sending
             to
             Ierusalem
             .
             Now
             this
             endeavour
             doth
             argue
             their
             right
             ;
             for
             otherwise
             it
             had
             been
             sinfull
             ,
             as
             being
             a
             presuming
             to
             do
             that
             which
             did
             not
             belong
             to
             them
             .
             This
             reason
             we
             have
             rendered
             afore
             in
             the
             place
             which
             our
             Author
             alledgeth
             ,
             and
             he
             doth
             not
             at
             all
             remove
             it
             ;
             and
             therefore
             we
             are
             still
             of
             the
             same
             mind
             as
             before
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             was
             not
             dependant
             upon
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             other
             Churches
             ,
             but
             had
             independant
             power
             within
             themselves
             ,
             as
             many
             may
             have
             who
             yet
             need
             the
             help
             of
             light
             from
             others
             ,
             for
             their
             direction
             in
             using
             their
             power
             .
             Great
             Kings
             and
             Monarchs
             have
             received
             light
             from
             their
             Councellours
             without
             any
             impeac●ment
             of
             their
             independant
             power
             ,
             which
             they
             have
             in
             themselves
             ,
             and
             without
             any
             ascribing
             of
             that
             power
             to
             those
             their
             Counsellours
             .
             As
             we
             said
             in
             the
             place
             alledged
             ,
             Antioch
             may
             send
             to
             Ierusalem
             for
             help
             ,
             and
             yet
             this
             sending
             neither
             prove
             right
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             them
             who
             are
             sent
             unto
             ,
             nor
             want
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             them
             who
             do
             send
             .
          
           
             And
             therefore
             whereas
             our
             Brother
             saith
             ,
             Antioch
             
               because
               of
               the
               difficulty
               of
               the
               controversie
               ,
               had
               not
               light
               to
               judge
               thereof
               ,
            
             Ergo
             
               we
               must
               acknowledge
               Appeales
               to
               be
               warrantable
               ,
            
             We
             would
             rather
             argue
             thus
             ,
             Antioch
             wanted
             light
             ,
             Ergo
             Counsell
             and
             light
             is
             to
             be
             sought
             elsewhere
             ;
             and
             thus
             we
             conceive
             the
             inference
             will
             hold
             :
             but
             to
             say
             ,
             Ergo
             there
             must
             be
             Appeales
             from
             the
             Congregation
             to
             others
             in
             matter
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             this
             we
             conceive
             will
             not
             follow
             at
             all
             .
             No
             more
             then
             it
             will
             follow
             ,
             Kings
             or
             other
             supreame
             civill
             Rulers
             must
             seek
             light
             and
             direction
             from
             their
             Counsellours
             ,
             Ergo
             there
             lyes
             an
             appeale
             from
             them
             to
             those
             Counsellours
             ,
             which
             Consequence
             none
             will
             maintain
             nor
             affirme
             .
          
           
             If
             the
             Scriptures
             had
             said
             that
             Antioch
             did
             never
             attempt
             to
             ●nd
             that
             controversie
             ,
             as
             knowing
             that
             the
             ending
             thereof
             belonged
             not
             to
             them
             but
             to
             others
             :
             or
             if
             it
             had
             said
             ,
             that
             the
             censuring
             of
             these
             obtruders
             of
             Circumcision
             had
             been
             performed
             by
             them
             of
             Jerusalem
             ,
             and
             not
             by
             them
             of
             Antioch
             as
             not
             belonging
             to
             Antioch
             but
             to
             them
             of
             Jerusalem
             ,
             then
             our
             Brother
             might
             have
             had
             some
             ground
             from
             Antioch
             to
             prove
             the
             necessity
             or
             warrantablenesse
             of
             appeales
             from
             Congregationall
             Churches
             to
             other
             Iudicatories
             :
             but
             such
             no
             such
             thing
             is
             said
             ,
             we
             see
             not
             how
             this
             example
             can
             be
             any
             ground
             for
             the
             establishing
             of
             such
             appeales
             ,
             or
             the
             taking
             away
             from
             Congregationall
             Churches
             their
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             within
             themselves
             .
          
           
             Especially
             ,
             wee
             see
             not
             how
             this
             our
             Brother
             can
             alledge
             the
             same
             for
             such
             a
             purpose
             ,
             considering
             what
             himselfe
             hath
             written
             elsewhere
             in
             this
             learned
             Treatise
             of
             his
             wherein
             he
             examines
             that
             answer
             of
             ours
             .
             Two
             passages
             in
             his
             treatise
             I
             propound
             to
             consideration
             ,
             which
             seeme
             to
             me
             to
             make
             for
             that
             independant
             or
             supreame
             power
             in
             Congregations
             ,
             which
             here
             he
             is
             disputing
             against
             ,
             the
             one
             is
             that
             which
             we
             touched
             before
             in
             his
             Page
             413.
             
             
               Where
               he
               saith
               that
               Synods
               in
               case
               of
               neglect
               of
               Presbyteriall
               Churches
               are
               to
               command
               the
               particular
               Churches
               whom
               it
               concerneth
               ,
               to
               do
               their
               dutie
               ,
               as
               in
               other
               particulars
               there
               named
               ,
               so
               in
               excommunication
               of
               offenders
               ;
               and
               further
               that
               the
               Synod
               ,
            
             Act.
             15.
             
             
               Is
               to
               remit
               the
               censure
               of
               Excommunication
               to
               the
               Presbytery
               of
            
             Antioch
             and
             Ierusalem
             ,
             
               in
               case
               of
               the
               obstina●ie
               of
               these
               obtruders
               of
               Circumcision
               .
            
             Which
             I
             conceive
             is
             very
             truly
             spoken
             ,
             and
             thereupon
             it
             followes
             that
             there
             was
             a
             supremacie
             
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             that
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             ,
             and
             no
             necessity
             of
             appealing
             from
             them
             to
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             others
             .
             For
             ●ith
             the
             Synods
             are
             only
             to
             command
             the
             Churches
             to
             do
             their
             duty
             ,
             and
             to
             remit
             the
             censure
             of
             offenders
             to
             the
             Churches
             themselves
             to
             whom
             the
             offenders
             belong
             ,
             it
             plainly
             appeareth
             thereby
             where
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Iurisdiction
             doth
             lye
             .
          
           
             The
             other
             place
             is
             in
             his
             Page
             307.
             
             Where
             we
             have
             these
             words
             ,
             
               viz.
               The
               power
               of
               Jurisdiction
               ordinary
               intensive
               and
            
             quo
             ad
             essentiam
             Ecclesiae
             Ministerialis
             ,
             
               according
               to
               the
               intire
               essence
               of
               a
               Ministeriall
               Church
               ,
               is
               as
               perfect
               and
               compleat
               in
               one
               single
               Congregation
               as
               in
               a
               Provinciall
               ,
               as
               in
               a
               Nationall
               .
               Yea
               as
               in
               the
               Catholike
               visible
               body
               whereof
               Christ
               is
               the
               head
               .
            
             Now
             if
             there
             be
             such
             perfect
             &
             compleat
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             a
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             there
             can
             be
             such
             necessity
             of
             Appeales
             from
             them
             to
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             others
             as
             he
             is
             pleading
             for
             ,
             nor
             how
             that
             supreame
             and
             independant
             power
             in
             Congregations
             can
             be
             denyed
             ,
             which
             here
             he
             disputeth
             against
             .
             For
             let
             this
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             be
             acknowledged
             as
             due
             to
             such
             Churches
             ,
             and
             appeales
             from
             them
             to
             other
             Iurisdictions
             will
             be
             of
             small
             necessity
             or
             use
             .
          
           
             I
             know
             indeed
             this
             Reverend
             Author
             sayeth
             in
             the
             Page
             last
             mentioned
             ,
             and
             within
             a
             few
             lines
             of
             the
             words
             which
             I
             have
             here
             alledged
             ,
             
               That
               a
               Congregation
               is
               so
               a
               part
               of
               the
               Presbytery
               that
               it
               hath
               not
               a
               whole
               intire
               compleat
               intensive
               power
               over
               its
               own
               members
               to
               Excommunicate
               them
               —
               .
               And
               therefore
               the
               consociated
               Churches
               must
               have
               a
               power
               over
               the
               members
               of
               a
               Congregation
               .
            
             Which
             words
             I
             confesse
             seeme
             not
             well
             to
             agree
             with
             the
             former
             ,
             because
             in
             the
             one
             intire
             compleat
             intensive
             Power
             is
             denyed
             to
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             other
             the
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             ordinary
             intensive
             ,
             is
             said
             to
             be
             as
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             in
             the
             Congregation
             as
             in
             the
             great
             Churches
             .
             But
             it
             is
             not
             the
             latter
             words
             but
             the
             former
             which
             I
             do
             stand
             upon
             ;
             and
             by
             them
             (
             as
             I
             conceive
             )
             the
             supremacie
             of
             Congregations
             is
             established
             ,
             and
             the
             necessity
             of
             appeales
             from
             them
             to
             other
             Iurisdictions
             is
             cleerely
             takes
             away
             .
             For
             if
             the
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             be
             as
             intire
             perfect
             and
             compleat
             in
             the
             Congregation
             as
             in
             the
             greater
             Churches
             ,
             as
             our
             Brother
             expresly
             affirmes
             it
             to
             be
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             the
             reason
             why
             there
             must
             be
             appeales
             from
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             the
             Congregation
             unto
             the
             Iurisdiction
             of
             those
             other
             Churches
             .
             If
             the
             Power
             spoken
             of
             were
             more
             imperfect
             and
             incompleat
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             then
             it
             is
             in
             the
             other
             Churches
             ,
             then
             there
             might
             be
             more
             reason
             or
             ●ayrer
             pretence
             for
             those
             appeales
             :
             but
             sith
             our
             Author
             confesseth
             it
             is
             no
             more
             intire
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             in
             these
             then
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             but
             as
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             in
             the
             Congregation
             as
             it
             is
             in
             the
             other
             ,
             I
             am
             yet
             to
             seeke
             of
             a
             sufficient
             ground
             for
             the
             necessity
             of
             appeales
             from
             the
             Iurisdiction
             in
             a
             Congregation
             .
             For
             is
             it
             reasonable
             to
             appeale
             from
             one
             Iudicatory
             to
             another
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             be
             as
             intire
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             in
             the
             former
             from
             which
             the
             appeale
             is
             made
             ,
             as
             in
             the
             latter
             to
             which
             the
             cause
             is
             brought
             by
             such
             appeale
             ?
             It
             seemes
             by
             such
             appeales
             we
             are
             not
             like
             to
             be
             much
             helper
             ,
             nor
             much
             to
             mend
             the
             matter
             above
             what
             it
             was
             before
             ,
             and
             therefore
             the
             usefulnesse
             and
             necessity
             thereof
             is
             still
             uncl●●●●
             .
          
           
             I
             thinke
             the
             Brethren
             erre
             in
             this
             to
             teach
             that
             Antioch
             had
             power
             to
             
             determine
             the
             controversie
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             
             When
             the
             Churches
             of
             Syria
             and
             Cicilia
             ,
             to
             their
             knowledge
             were
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             question
             as
             verse
             24.
             may
             cleere
             ,
             —
             I
             doubt
             much
             if
             they
             had
             power
             to
             determine
             a
             question
             that
             so
             much
             concerned
             all
             the
             Churches
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             It
             is
             not
             cleere
             from
             verse
             24.
             nor
             from
             any
             part
             of
             the
             Chapter
             as
             farre
             as
             I
             can
             find
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             did
             know
             that
             other
             Churches
             were
             troubled
             with
             this
             question
             ;
             and
             if
             they
             had
             known
             it
             ,
             I
             see
             nothing
             therein
             but
             they
             might
             notwithstanding
             lawfully
             end
             the
             matter
             so
             farre
             as
             concerned
             themselves
             .
             For
             when
             this
             question
             was
             started
             amongst
             them
             by
             such
             as
             came
             from
             Judea
             and
             taught
             this
             corrupt
             Doctrine
             at
             Antioch
             ,
             the
             text
             is
             very
             cleere
             verse
             2
             ,
             that
             they
             had
             much
             disputation
             amongst
             themselves
             to
             have
             ended
             the
             matter
             ,
             afore
             there
             was
             any
             speech
             of
             sending
             to
             Ierusalem
             :
             which
             disputation
             is
             an
             argument
             that
             they
             had
             right
             to
             have
             ended
             it
             ,
             if
             ability
             had
             no●
             been
             wanting
             .
          
           
             And
             as
             for
             our
             Brothers
             reason
             for
             the
             contrary
             taken
             from
             their
             knowledge
             that
             the
             other
             Churches
             of
             Syria
             and
             Cicilia
             were
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             question
             ,
             there
             is
             not
             one
             word
             in
             the
             verse
             alledged
             to
             shew
             that
             Antioch
             had
             knowledge
             of
             any
             such
             matter
             ,
             nor
             is
             Syria
             and
             Cicilia
             once
             mentioned
             therein
             :
             And
             though
             they
             be
             mentioned
             verse
             23.
             
             Yet
             neither
             doth
             this
             verse
             declare
             that
             Antioch
             had
             any
             knowledge
             that
             this
             question
             had
             ever
             troubled
             those
             other
             Churches
             .
             Say
             it
             be
             true
             that
             indeed
             they
             had
             been
             troubled
             therewith
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             Epistle
             from
             the
             Synod
             doth
             intimate
             no
             lesse
             ,
             this
             may
             prove
             that
             when
             the
             Epistle
             came
             to
             be
             read
             at
             Antioch
             ,
             then
             Antioch
             by
             this
             meanes
             might
             come
             to
             the
             knowledge
             thereof
             ;
             but
             all
             this
             doth
             not
             prove
             that
             Antioch
             knew
             so
             much
             afore
             .
             And
             therefore
             they
             might
             endeavour
             to
             end
             the
             matter
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             as
             not
             knowing
             for
             any
             thing
             our
             Author
             hath
             yet
             brought
             to
             the
             contrary
             ,
             that
             any
             other
             Churches
             besides
             themselves
             were
             troubled
             therewith
             .
             But
             suppose
             they
             had
             known
             so
             much
             ,
             I
             see
             nothing
             in
             this
             to
             hinder
             but
             Antioch
             might
             lawfully
             cleere
             up
             the
             truth
             in
             the
             question
             ,
             and
             censure
             such
             of
             their
             Church
             as
             should
             obstinately
             hold
             and
             teach
             that
             false
             Doctrine
             ,
             notwithstanding
             their
             knowledge
             that
             others
             had
             been
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             Doctrine
             and
             teachers
             .
             Suppose
             a
             Christian
             family
             be
             troubled
             with
             lying
             Children
             ,
             or
             servants
             ,
             or
             such
             as
             are
             disobedient
             and
             undutifull
             in
             one
             kind
             or
             in
             another
             ;
             suppose
             they
             also
             knew
             that
             their
             neighbour
             families
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             ,
             shall
             this
             knowledge
             of
             theirs
             hinder
             the
             Parents
             or
             Masters
             in
             such
             a
             family
             from
             censuring
             or
             correcting
             these
             that
             are
             under
             their
             government
             ,
             according
             to
             their
             demerits
             ?
             If
             not
             ,
             why
             shall
             Antioch
             be
             hindered
             from
             censuring
             offending
             members
             of
             their
             Church
             ,
             only
             upon
             this
             ground
             because
             to
             their
             knowledge
             other
             Churches
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             offenders
             ?
             A
             City
             or
             Corporation
             is
             troubled
             with
             Drunkards
             ,
             with
             theeves
             ,
             or
             other
             vicious
             and
             lewd
             persons
             ,
             and
             knoweth
             that
             other
             Cities
             or
             Corporations
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             :
             A
             Nationall
             Church
             ,
             as
             Scotland
             for
             example
             ,
             is
             troubled
             with
             obtruders
             of
             Ceremonies
             ,
             Service
             booke
             ,
             Episcopacie
             or
             other
             corruptions
             ,
             and
             knoweth
             that
             England
             or
             other
             Churches
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             ,
             shall
             Scotland
             now
             be
             hindered
             from
             removing
             these
             corruptions
             ,
             and
             the
             obtruders
             of
             them
             from
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             only
             upon
             this
             ground
             ,
             because
             England
             to
             their
             knowledge
             is
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             ?
             Or
             shall
             the
             Corporation
             ●ee
             hindered
             from
             punishing
             theeves
             and
             such
             other
             malefactors
             ,
             only
             for
             this
             reason
             ,
             because
             to
             their
             knowledge
             other
             Corporations
             
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             lewd
             persons
             ?
             I
             suppose
             it
             is
             easie
             to
             see
             the
             insufficiency
             and
             invalidity
             of
             such
             Consequences
             ?
             And
             therefore
             if
             Antioch
             did
             know
             that
             other
             Churches
             were
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             offenders
             ,
             as
             themselves
             were
             troubled
             withall
             ,
             this
             needs
             not
             to
             hinder
             but
             they
             may
             determine
             questions
             that
             arise
             amongst
             themselves
             ,
             and
             may
             censure
             such
             of
             their
             members
             as
             shall
             trouble
             the
             Church
             or
             Brethren
             therewith
             ,
             and
             obstinately
             persist
             in
             so
             doing
             .
          
           
             This
             being
             considered
             withall
             ,
             that
             in
             thus
             doing
             they
             do
             not
             go
             beyond
             their
             line
             ,
             nor
             meddle
             with
             matters
             any
             farther
             but
             as
             they
             are
             within
             their
             Compasse
             .
             For
             when
             divers
             Churches
             are
             troubled
             with
             the
             like
             corruptions
             in
             Doctrine
             or
             practise
             ,
             and
             some
             one
             of
             those
             Churches
             by
             using
             the
             Key
             of
             Doctrine
             or
             discipline
             or
             both
             ,
             doth
             endeavour
             the
             removall
             of
             these
             corruptions
             ,
             they
             do
             not
             hereby
             attempt
             and
             endeavour
             to
             remove
             them
             out
             of
             other
             Churches
             (
             which
             might
             be
             an
             appearance
             of
             stretching
             their
             line
             beyond
             their
             compasse
             )
             but
             out
             of
             their
             own
             Church
             ,
             and
             only
             so
             farre
             as
             concernes
             themselves
             ,
             and
             in
             so
             doing
             no
             man
             can
             justly
             say
             they
             meddle
             further
             then
             their
             Power
             doth
             reach
             .
          
           
             
               But
               he
               gives
               another
               reason
               why
            
             Antioch
             
               had
               not
               right
               to
               determine
               the
               question
               ,
            
             And
             this
             is
             taken
             from
             the
             strong
             party
             that
             was
             in
             Antioch
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             which
             was
             such
             as
             that
             they
             opposed
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             :
             concerning
             which
             he
             saith
             ,
             that
             when
             the
             greatest
             part
             of
             a
             Church
             as
             Antioch
             is
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             as
             is
             cleere
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             2.
             
             He
             beleeveth
             in
             that
             they
             loose
             their
             jus
             ,
             their
             right
             to
             determine
             eatenus
             in
             so
             farre
             ;
             for
             Christ
             hath
             given
             no
             Ecclesiasticall
             right
             and
             power
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             but
             onely
             for
             truth
             ;
             and
             therefore
             in
             this
             ,
             Appeales
             must
             be
             necessary
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             How
             is
             it
             cleere
             that
             the
             greatst
             part
             of
             the
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             was
             against
             the
             truth
             ?
             The
             text
             doth
             not
             say
             so
             much
             ,
             but
             only
             this
             ,
             that
             certain
             men
             which
             came
             from
             Iudea
             ,
             taught
             the
             Brethren
             and
             said
             except
             ye
             be
             Circumcised
             ye
             cannot
             be
             saved
             ,
             and
             that
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             had
             no
             small
             dissension
             and
             disputation
             with
             them
             about
             the
             matter
             ,
             and
             that
             in
             the
             issue
             they
             determined
             that
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             and
             certaine
             others
             should
             go
             up
             to
             Ierusalem
             about
             the
             question
             :
             Thus
             much
             the
             Scripture
             witnesseth
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             1
             ,
             2.
             
             But
             whether
             they
             that
             held
             that
             corrupt
             Doctrine
             at
             Antioch
             were
             the
             major
             or
             the
             minor
             part
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             the
             text
             doth
             not
             expresse
             ,
             except
             we
             shall
             say
             that
             where
             a
             false
             Doctrine
             is
             taught
             by
             some
             ,
             and
             greatly
             opposed
             and
             disputed
             against
             by
             others
             ,
             there
             it
             must
             needs
             bee
             that
             the
             greatest
             part
             are
             tainted
             with
             that
             false
             Doctrine
             ,
             which
             wee
             thinke
             is
             no
             good
             Consequence
             .
             
               And
               therefore
               whereas
               our
               Author
               saith
               ,
               the
               greatest
               part
               of
               this
               Church
               was
               against
               the
               Truth
               ,
               and
               that
               so
               much
               is
               cleere
               from
               verse
            
             2.
             
             I
             answer
             ,
             first
             that
             I
             do
             not
             perceive
             this
             cleerenesse
             ,
             neither
             from
             verse
             2
             ,
             nor
             from
             any
             other
             place
             of
             the
             Chapter
             .
          
           
             Nextly
             ,
             suppose
             this
             were
             cleere
             ,
             this
             may
             argue
             that
             they
             wanted
             ability
             and
             light
             to
             end
             the
             matter
             ,
             but
             must
             it
             needs
             argue
             that
             they
             wanted
             right
             though
             they
             had
             been
             able
             ?
             Or
             shall
             we
             say
             that
             they
             who
             want
             ability
             to
             doe
             things
             as
             they
             should
             be
             done
             ,
             do
             therefore
             want
             right
             to
             ●●al●
             in
             them
             at
             all
             ?
             I
             conceive
             it
             will
             not
             follow
             ,
             
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             because
             this
             right
             in
             Churches
             is
             Naturall
             ,
             or
             Connaturall
             to
             every
             Church
             ,
             and
             this
             want
             of
             ability
             is
             only
             accidentall
             ,
             and
             therefore
             this
             latter
             cannot
             totally
             hinder
             the
             former
             .
          
           
             That
             light
             of
             government
             is
             Naturall
             or
             connaturall
             to
             every
             Church
             ,
             our
             Brother
             own
             words
             do
             testifie
             Page
             341.
             
             Where
             he
             saith
             this
             ,
             
               viz.
               Supposing
               that
               Christ
               have
               a
               visible
               Church
               it
               is
               morall
               that
               she
               have
               power
               of
               government
               also
               ,
               in
               so
               farre
               as
               she
               is
               a
               Church
               ;
               yea
               ,
               power
               of
               government
               upon
               this
               supposition
               is
               Naturall
               or
               rather
               connaturall
               .
               And
               in
               Page
               307
               ,
               he
               saith
               as
               was
               alledged
               before
               ,
               That
               the
               power
               of
               Iurisdiction
               ordinary
               intensive
               —
               .
               Is
               as
               perfect
               and
               compleat
               in
               one
               single
               Congregation
               as
               in
               a
               Provinciall
               ,
               or
               in
               a
               Nationall
               ;
               yea
               ,
               as
               in
               the
               Catholike
               visible
               body
               whereof
               Christ
               is
               the
               head
               .
               And
               in
               Page
               383.
               
               He
               saith
               ,
               That
               to
               a
               Congregation
               Christ
               hath
               given
               by
               an
               immediate
               flux
               from
               himselfe
               a
               politicall
               Church
               power
               intrinsci●ally
               in
               it
               ,
               derived
               from
               none
               but
               immediately
               from
               Iesus
               Christ
               :
            
             And
             the
             like
             he
             saith
             of
             a
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             .
             Now
             whether
             Antioch
             was
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             as
             we
             hold
             ,
             or
             a
             Presbyteriall
             as
             is
             holden
             by
             this
             our
             Brother
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             cleere
             by
             those
             words
             of
             his
             here
             alledged
             ,
             that
             being
             essentially
             a
             Church
             ;
             it
             had
             a
             politicall
             Church
             power
             intrinscically
             within
             it selfe
             ,
             yet
             a
             perfect
             and
             compleat
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             yea
             and
             such
             a
             power
             as
             was
             naturall
             or
             connaturall
             unto
             her
             ,
             as
             she
             was
             a
             Church
             .
             But
             now
             the
             light
             of
             knowledge
             whereby
             they
             should
             be
             enabled
             well
             to
             use
             this
             power
             ,
             did
             not
             adde
             any
             power
             unto
             them
             which
             they
             had
             not
             before
             ,
             not
             did
             the
             want
             of
             it
             ,
             being
             but
             accidentall
             ,
             deprive
             them
             of
             that
             Power
             ,
             which
             was
             intrinscicall
             ,
             essentiall
             and
             connaturall
             unto
             them
             as
             they
             were
             a
             Church
             of
             Christ
             .
             Onely
             this
             want
             did
             hinder
             their
             ability
             to
             expresse
             their
             power
             well
             ,
             but
             their
             right
             as
             being
             a
             thing
             Connaturall
             did
             still
             remaine
             .
          
           
             Our
             Brother
             hath
             a
             saying
             or
             two
             about
             the
             civill
             Power
             ,
             which
             by
             proportion
             may
             well
             illustrate
             this
             that
             I
             am
             speaking
             o●●bo
             it
             the
             Church-power
             .
             In
             one
             place
             he
             saith
             thus
             ,
             
               There
               is
               a
               two-fold
               power
               in
               a
               King
               ,
               one
               in
               a
               King
               as
               a
               King
               ,
               and
               this
               is
               a
               like
               in
               all
               ,
               and
               ordinary
               regall
               ,
               coactive
               :
               whether
               the
               King
               be
               an
               Heathen
               ,
               a
               Turke
               ,
               or
               a
               sound
               believing
               Christian
               :
               there
               is
               another
               power
               in
               a
               King
               as
               such
               a
               King
               ,
               either
               as
               a
               Propheticall
               King
               as
            
             David
             and
             Solomon
             
               or
               as
               a
               Christian
               believing
               King.
               And
               of
               this
               latter
               he
               saith
               ,
               that
               it
               is
               not
               a
               new
               regall
               power
               ,
               but
            
             potestas
             execuliba
             ,
             
               a
               power
               or
               gracious
               ability
               to
               execute
               the
               Kingly
               Power
               ,
               which
               he
               had
               before
               as
               a
               King
               ;
               Page
               387.
               &c.
               
            
             388.
             ●ow
             why
             may
             it
             not
             be
             said
             in
             like
             sort
             ,
             there
             is
             in
             a
             Church
             two-fold
             Power
             ,
             one
             in
             a
             Church
             as
             it
             is
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             this
             is
             a
             like
             in
             all
             true
             Churches
             of
             Christ
             ,
             whether
             the
             Church
             in
             this
             or
             that
             particular
             question
             have
             light
             to
             discerne
             ,
             and
             hold
             the
             truth
             ,
             or
             otherwise
             :
             another
             in
             a
             Church
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             sound
             believing
             Church
             ,
             holding
             the
             truth
             in
             such
             or
             such
             question
             ;
             and
             this
             is
             but
             only
             a
             gracious
             ability
             to
             exercise
             the
             power
             which
             they
             had
             before
             ,
             not
             adding
             to
             them
             any
             new
             Power
             at
             all
             ?
             Againe
             ,
             in
             his
             Page
             393.
             he
             hath
             these
             words
             .
             
             
               Though
               the
               King
               were
               not
               a
               Christian
               Magistrate
               ,
               yet
               hath
               he
               a
               Kingly
               power
               to
               command
               men
               as
               Christians
               ,
               and
               it
               is
               by
               accident
               that
               he
               cannot
               in
               that
               state
               command
               Christian
               duties
               ,
               and
               service
               to
               Christ
               ;
               because
               he
               will
               not
               ,
               and
               cannot
               command
               those
               dutyes
               remaining
               ignorant
               of
               Christ
               ;
               even
               as
               a
               King
               ignorant
               of
               necessary
               civill
               dutyes
               cannot
               command
               them
               ,
               not
               because
               he
               wanteth
               Kingly
               power
               to
               command
               these
               civill
               things
               ,
               for
               undeniably
               he
               is
               a
               Iudge
               in
               civill
               things
               ,
               but
               because
               he
               hath
               not
               knowledge
               of
               them
               .
            
             And
             may
             we
             not
             say
             in
             like
             sort
             ,
             though
             a
             Church
             want
             the
             knowledge
             of
             the
             truth
             ,
             in
             some
             particular
             question
             ,
             yet
             they
             have
             a
             Church
             power
             to
             determine
             such
             questions
             ,
             &
             to
             command
             obedience
             therein
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             by
             accident
             they
             cannot
             in
             that
             state
             determine
             rightly
             ,
             because
             they
             will
             not
             ,
             being
             ignorant
             of
             the
             truth
             therein
             ,
             not
             because
             they
             want
             Church-power
             to
             determine
             such
             matters
             ,
             but
             because
             they
             have
             not
             the
             knowledge
             of
             them
             .
             Againe
             a
             little
             after
             in
             the
             same
             P.
             he
             tels
             us
             ,
             
               That
               Christianity
               addeth
               no
               new
               fatherly
               power
               to
               a
               Father
               over
               his
               Children
               ,
               nor
               giveth
               a
               new
               husband
               right
               to
               the
               husband
               ,
               once
               an
               Heathen
               over
               his
               wife
               ;
               for
               an
               heathen
               Father
               is
               as
               essentially
               a
               Father
               over
               his
               Children
               as
               a
               Christian
               Father
               ,
               and
               an
               heathen
               husband
               an
               heathen
               master
               &c.
               are
               all
               as
               essentially
               Husband
               ,
               Masters
               ,
               &c.
               as
               are
               the
               Christian
               husbands
               ,
               masters
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             And
             may
             we
             not
             as
             well
             say
             ,
             soundnesse
             of
             knowledge
             in
             such
             or
             such
             a
             particular
             question
             addeth
             no
             new
             Church
             power
             to
             a
             Christian
             Church
             over
             their
             own
             members
             ,
             nor
             giveth
             a
             new
             Church
             right
             over
             them
             which
             they
             had
             not
             before
             ;
             for
             a
             Church
             that
             wanteth
             such
             knowledge
             is
             as
             essentially
             a
             Church
             ,
             invested
             with
             Church
             power
             over
             her
             members
             as
             is
             another
             Church
             ?
             For
             ought
             I
             perceive
             the
             cases
             are
             alike
             ;
             and
             if
             soundnesse
             of
             knowledge
             do
             not
             give
             to
             a
             Church
             their
             Church-right
             in
             this
             or
             that
             question
             ,
             how
             can
             want
             of
             that
             knowledge
             deprive
             them
             of
             that
             right
             ?
             Sure
             one
             would
             thinke
             the
             whole
             substance
             of
             Christianity
             might
             do
             as
             much
             for
             the
             adding
             of
             Kingly
             right
             ,
             Fatherly
             right
             ,
             Husband
             right
             ,
             &c.
             
             As
             soundnesse
             of
             knowledge
             in
             some
             one
             particular
             question
             ,
             for
             the
             adding
             of
             Church
             right
             ;
             &
             that
             the
             want
             of
             all
             Christianity
             should
             be
             as
             available
             for
             taking
             away
             the
             Kingly
             right
             ,
             the
             Fatherly
             right
             ,
             &c.
             
             As
             the
             want
             of
             knowledge
             in
             one
             particular
             point
             for
             the
             taking
             away
             of
             Church-right
             ;
             and
             sith
             we
             have
             our
             Brothers
             own
             testimony
             cleer
             and
             full
             for
             the
             one
             ,
             it
             seems
             to
             me
             the
             cases
             are
             so
             parallel
             and
             proportionable
             ,
             that
             the
             other
             is
             unavoidable
             :
             I
             meane
             thus
             ,
             sith
             in
             the
             one
             case
             the
             whole
             substance
             of
             Christianity
             doth
             not
             give
             power
             ,
             nor
             the
             want
             thereof
             take
             away
             the
             same
             by
             our
             Brothers
             own
             teaching
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             how
             in
             the
             other
             case
             soundnesse
             of
             knowledge
             in
             one
             particular
             question
             should
             give
             power
             or
             right
             ,
             &
             want
             of
             such
             knowledge
             take
             away
             the
             same
             .
             And
             so
             for
             Antioch
             in
             particular
             ,
             if
             it
             were
             as
             our
             Brother
             supposeth
             that
             the
             greater
             part
             of
             them
             did
             hold
             against
             the
             truth
             in
             that
             question
             about
             Circumcision
             ,
             I
             see
             not
             how
             this
             could
             deprive
             them
             of
             their
             Church
             right
             which
             they
             had
             before
             .
          
           
             
               As
               for
               our
               Brothers
               reason
               that
               Christ
               hath
               given
               no
               Ecclesiasticall
               right
               and
               power
               to
               determine
               against
               the
               truth
               ,
               but
               onely
               for
               the
               truth
               ,
            
             
             This
             saying
             I
             confesse
             is
             very
             true
             ,
             but
             doth
             not
             suffice
             for
             the
             purpose
             for
             which
             hee
             brings
             it
             ,
             viz.
             To
             prove
             that
             Antioch
             being
             ignorant
             of
             the
             truth
             in
             that
             question
             about
             Circumcision
             ,
             or
             holding
             against
             the
             truth
             therein
             did
             thereby
             lose
             their
             Church
             right
             to
             determine
             .
             For
             if
             this
             reason
             be
             good
             ,
             then
             a
             man
             may
             conclude
             against
             that
             power
             in
             heathen
             Kings
             ,
             Parents
             ,
             and
             Husbands
             ,
             to
             governe
             their
             Subjects
             ,
             children
             and
             Wives
             ;
             which
             our
             Brother
             ,
             as
             we
             heard
             afore
             ,
             hath
             granted
             and
             taught
             :
             For
             suppose
             that
             Antioch
             were
             ignorant
             of
             the
             truth
             in
             that
             particular
             is
             it
             not
             cleere
             that
             the
             Kings
             ,
             Parents
             ,
             and
             Husbands
             mentioned
             are
             ignorant
             of
             the
             truth
             in
             many
             more
             matters
             ?
             And
             it
             Antioch
             do
             hereupon
             loose
             their
             right
             ,
             because
             Christ
             hath
             given
             no
             power
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             but
             for
             the
             truth
             ,
             how
             will
             it
             be
             avoided
             but
             by
             the
             same
             reason
             ,
             ●he
             Kings
             and
             the
             others
             mentioned
             must
             likewise
             lose
             their
             right
             to
             governe
             their
             own
             subjects
             and
             families
             ?
             For
             the
             Lord
             gives
             no
             right
             ,
             I
             hope
             ,
             to
             Pagans
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             no
             more
             then
             he
             doth
             unto
             Churches
             .
             And
             therfore
             if
             the
             reason
             be
             valid
             and
             strong
             in
             the
             one
             case
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             purpose
             ,
             for
             which
             our
             Brother
             brings
             it
             ,
             it
             seemes
             to
             be
             as
             strong
             in
             the
             other
             case
             also
             ,
             which
             shall
             be
             contrary
             to
             what
             our
             Brother
             himselfe
             doth
             teach
             .
          
           
             In
             a
             word
             ▪
             Churches
             and
             Antioch
             in
             particular
             have
             right
             to
             determine
             questions
             ,
             and
             they
             ought
             to
             determine
             only
             according
             to
             the
             truth
             :
             They
             have
             formally
             a
             right
             to
             determine
             ,
             and
             when
             their
             determinations
             are
             according
             to
             truth
             ,
             then
             they
             will
             ●ind
             
               Vi
               mat●●i●
            
             which
             else
             they
             will
             not
             .
             They
             have
             right
             to
             determine
             in
             
               fore
               Humano
            
             ,
             and
             if
             their
             determinations
             be
             for
             matter
             agreeable
             to
             truth
             ,
             they
             will
             be
             ratifyed
             in
             
               foro
               Div●●o
            
             ,
             but
             not
             else
             .
             Now
             our
             Brothers
             arguing
             doth
             seeme
             to
             confound
             these
             two
             ;
             and
             because
             of
             the
             latter
             which
             is
             freely
             granted
             ,
             he
             would
             conclude
             against
             the
             former
             ,
             which
             we
             thinke
             is
             not
             good
             reasoning
             ;
             but
             on
             the
             contrary
             do
             still
             thinke
             ,
             that
             though
             Churches
             ought
             to
             give
             out
             no
             determinations
             but
             such
             as
             are
             agreeable
             to
             truth
             ,
             and
             that
             otherwise
             their
             determinations
             ,
             in
             respect
             of
             the
             matter
             of
             them
             will
             not
             bind
             before
             God
             ,
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             they
             may
             have
             right
             formally
             and
             in
             
               Foro
               humano
            
             to
             judge
             ,
             and
             to
             determine
             of
             such
             things
             .
          
           
             Moreover
             ,
             if
             this
             were
             granted
             for
             true
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             when
             they
             are
             against
             the
             truth
             do
             lose
             their
             right
             to
             determine
             Controversies
             ,
             yet
             we
             are
             not
             hereby
             much
             neerer
             to
             an
             issue
             ,
             unlesse
             it
             be
             determined
             withall
             who
             must
             be
             judge
             whether
             they
             be
             against
             the
             truth
             or
             no
             ,
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             because
             if
             they
             be
             not
             against
             the
             truth
             but
             for
             it
             ,
             then
             I
             hope
             ,
             it
             will
             be
             granted
             that
             they
             doo
             not
             lose
             their
             right
             at
             all
             .
             The
             question
             therefore
             still
             remaines
             ,
             who
             hath
             this
             Ministeriall
             Power
             to
             Iudge
             whether
             this
             or
             that
             Church
             ,
             Antioch
             or
             any
             other
             be
             against
             the
             truth
             or
             for
             it
             ;
             and
             unlesse
             this
             be
             cleered
             we
             are
             but
             where
             we
             were
             before
             .
          
           
             But
             to
             draw
             towards
             an
             end
             of
             this
             passage
             about
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             :
             whether
             they
             had
             right
             to
             determine
             Controversies
             when
             ability
             failed
             ,
             or
             whether
             they
             did
             when
             lose
             that
             right
             ,
             I
             will
             here
             transcribe
             a
             few
             words
             of
             our
             Brother
             as
             I
             find
             them
             in
             his
             second
             ,
             331.
             
             Page
             .
             Wherein
             he
             either
             cleerely
             yeeldeth
             the
             cause
             ,
             and
             saith
             the
             same
             that
             we
             do
             or
             I
             am
             much
             mistaken
             .
             The
             words
             are
             these
             ,
             
               There
               is
               a
               difference
               between
               ability
               to
               judge
               ,
               and
               right
               or
               power
               to
               judge
               .
               A
               presbyteriall
               Church
               ,
               (
               and
               he
               disputeth
               in
               six
               Pages
               together
               to
               prove
            
             Antioch
             
               such
               a
               one
               ,
               Page
            
             470.
             471.
             
             &c.
             sequ
             .
             )
             
               may
               have
               right
            
             ,
             jus
             ,
             
               and
               Ecclesiastic●ll
               law
               to
               judge
               of
               a
               point
               ,
               to
               the
               judging
               whereof
               they
               want
               ability
               :
               
               therefore
            
             de
             facto
             ,
             
               it
               belongeth
               to
               an
               higher
               Synod
               where
               more
               learned
               men
               are
               ,
               though
            
             de
             jure
             
               the
               Presbytery
               may
               judge
               it
            
             .
             These
             words
             I
             wish
             to
             be
             well
             considered
             .
             For
             whereas
             in
             the
             place
             we
             have
             been
             speaking
             of
             ,
             he
             saith
             Antioch
             ,
             the
             greater
             part
             of
             them
             being
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             did
             lose
             their
             jus
             ,
             their
             right
             to
             determine
             ,
             for
             which
             as
             wee
             have
             heard
             ,
             he
             gives
             this
             reason
             ,
             because
             Christ
             hath
             given
             no
             right
             and
             power
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             but
             for
             it
             ,
             yet
             now
             wee
             see
             he
             grants
             distinction
             between
             ability
             and
             right
             ,
             and
             saith
             ,
             a
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             may
             still
             retaine
             this
             latter
             of
             their
             right
             ,
             even
             then
             ,
             when
             they
             want
             the
             other
             of
             ability
             .
             Which
             two
             sayings
             whether
             they
             do
             perfectly
             agree
             ,
             and
             whether
             in
             the
             latter
             of
             them
             he
             do
             not
             plainly
             come
             up
             to
             us
             ,
             against
             whom
             he
             hath
             been
             disputing
             in
             the
             former
             ,
             I
             leaue
             it
             to
             the
             wise
             in
             heart
             ,
             and
             especially
             to
             himselfe
             to
             consider
             .
             For
             ,
             for
             my
             part
             I
             must
             confesse
             that
             these
             two
             sayings
             ,
             A
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             as
             Antioch
             may
             have
             right
             ,
             jus
             to
             judge
             a
             point
             ,
             to
             the
             judging
             whereof
             they
             may
             want
             ability
             ;
             and
             ,
             Antioch
             a
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             wanting
             ability
             did
             thereby
             lose
             their
             right
             ,
             or
             jus
             to
             determine
             the
             point
             ,
             these
             two
             I
             say
             ,
             are
             such
             sayings
             as
             are
             not
             easie
             for
             me
             to
             reconcile
             .
          
           
             Lastly
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             said
             our
             Brother
             doth
             not
             deny
             unto
             Antioch
             ,
             or
             a
             Church
             in
             error
             all
             power
             simply
             to
             determine
             ,
             but
             only
             to
             determine
             
               tali
               mode
            
             ,
             that
             is
             ,
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ;
             for
             his
             words
             are
             ,
             they
             lose
             their
             jus
             their
             right
             eatenus
             ,
             in
             so
             far
             .
             I
             answer
             ,
             he
             hath
             such
             a
             word
             indeed
             ,
             as
             eatenus
             ,
             in
             so
             farre
             :
             but
             if
             any
             shall
             say
             he
             meant
             no
             more
             in
             this
             dispute
             ,
             but
             only
             that
             such
             a
             Church
             hath
             no
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             I
             conceive
             that
             he
             that
             shall
             so
             say
             ,
             shall
             therein
             impute
             some
             fault
             unto
             our
             Brother
             ,
             even
             the
             fault
             of
             wresting
             Mr.
             Tompsons
             Tenent
             and
             mine
             ,
             and
             suggesting
             against
             us
             unto
             his
             Reader
             ,
             as
             if
             we
             had
             held
             such
             a
             thing
             as
             we
             never
             wrote
             nor
             thought
             .
             For
             it
             is
             plain
             ,
             that
             our
             Brother
             in
             his
             Pag.
             424.
             is
             disputing
             against
             us
             ;
             
               For
               he
               saith
               ,
               that
               we
               teach
               the
               Church
               of
            
             Antioch
             had
             jus
             ,
             
               power
               to
               judge
               and
               determine
               the
               controversie
               ,
               but
               because
               of
               the
               difficulty
               had
               not
               light
               to
               judge
               thereof
               ,
            
             And
             sets
             down
             Master
             Tompsons
             name
             and
             mine
             as
             the
             men
             that
             so
             teach
             ,
             in
             Answer
             ,
             Page
             42.
             
             And
             a
             few
             lines
             after
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               I
               thinke
               the
               Brethren
               erre
               in
               this
               ,
               to
               teach
               ,
               that
            
             Antioch
             
               had
               power
               to
               determine
               the
               Controversie
               ,
            
             Act.
             15.
             
             And
             then
             hee
             gives
             two
             reasons
             for
             the
             contrary
             .
             So
             that
             it
             is
             manifest
             that
             he
             intends
             this
             dispute
             against
             us
             .
             Now
             what
             have
             we
             said
             in
             this
             matter
             ?
             Have
             we
             delivered
             any
             such
             thing
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             had
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ?
             Let
             the
             Answer
             be
             viewed
             in
             the
             place
             which
             he
             alledgeth
             ,
             viz.
             Page
             42.
             
             And
             I
             am
             sure
             no
             such
             grosse
             Tenent
             will
             be
             there
             found
             ,
             no
             nor
             any
             where
             else
             in
             our
             writing
             .
             That
             which
             we
             have
             said
             ,
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             had
             right
             to
             have
             determined
             the
             matter
             if
             ability
             had
             served
             thereto
             :
             but
             for
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             we
             never
             spake
             one
             word
             that
             soundeth
             that
             way
             .
             Our
             Brother
             therefore
             intending
             this
             dispute
             against
             us
             ,
             and
             plainly
             expressing
             so
             much
             ,
             and
             our
             Tenent
             being
             no
             other
             then
             as
             I
             have
             said
             ,
             it
             must
             therefore
             needs
             follow
             that
             his
             intendment
             is
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             had
             no
             right
             to
             determine
             that
             matter
             .
             But
             for
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             he
             cannot
             confute
             such
             a
             Tenent
             as
             ours
             ,
             we
             never
             having
             delivered
             any
             such
             thing
             ,
             but
             he
             must
             withall
             be
             culpable
             of
             manifest
             mistaking
             and
             mis-reporting
             of
             us
             to
             the
             World
             ;
             and
             we
             are
             ,
             and
             must
             be
             slow
             to
             
             believe
             that
             a
             man
             of
             such
             worth
             would
             willingly
             do
             us
             such
             wrong
             .
             It
             remains
             therefore
             ,
             that
             right
             to
             determine
             and
             not
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             truth
             ,
             is
             the
             thing
             which
             he
             oppos●t●
             as
             ours
             ,
             and
             therefore
             it
             is
             that
             in
             this
             sence
             and
             meaning
             I
             have
             here
             applyed
             my
             answer
             .
          
           
             The
             〈…〉
             thus
             much
             ;
             That
             Antioch
             had
             right
             to
             determine
             against
             the
             〈…〉
             that
             may
             soone
             be
             con●uted
             ,
             but
             the
             Tenent
             is
             none
             of
             ours
             :
             That
             〈…〉
             to
             determine
             ,
             is
             indeed
             our
             Tenent
             ,
             and
             whether
             this
             be
             con●uted
             〈…〉
             ,
             let
             the
             wise
             and
             Iudicious
             consider
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             IX
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             or
             the
             Presbyteriall
             doe
             make
             the
             Gospell
             more
             difficultive
             then
             the
             Law.
             Of
             Excommunication
             by
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             only
             three
             Elders
             ,
             and
             of
             doing
             things
             sudainly
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               the
               latter
               end
               of
               his
               Page
               424
               meaning
               Mr
            
             T●mpson
             
               and
               me
               ,
               and
               alledging
               Page
               17
               ,
               18.
               of
               the
               Answer
               .
            
             He
             writes
             that
             we
             say
             our
             opposites
             do
             much
             Judaize
             in
             that
             they
             multiply
             appeales
             upon
             appeales
             ,
             from
             a
             Congregation
             to
             a
             Classis
             ,
             then
             to
             a
             Synod
             ,
             then
             to
             a
             Nationall
             Assembly
             ,
             then
             to
             an
             Oec●●●●nicke
             Councell
             ;
             and
             this
             way
             while
             the
             world
             endureth
             causes
             are
             never
             determined
             ,
             and
             Synods
             cannot
             alwayes
             be
             had
             ;
             even
             as
             in
             Ierusalem
             the
             supreame
             Iudicature
             was
             farre
             remote
             from
             all
             Proselites
             ,
             as
             from
             the
             Eunuch
             of
             
               Ethiopia
               ,
               Act.
            
             8.
             
             And
             from
             the
             remote●●
             parts
             of
             the
             Holy
             Land
             :
             but
             God
             hath
             provided
             better
             for
             us
             in
             the
             new
             Testament
             ,
             where
             every
             Congregation
             which
             is
             at
             hand
             may
             decide
             the
             Controversie
             :
             And
             then
             ,
             Page
             425.
             
             He
             subjoyneth
             his
             Answer
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Though
             I
             deny
             not
             but
             some
             of
             the
             things
             here
             alledged
             are
             written
             by
             us
             in
             the
             Pa●●●
             nam●d
             ,
             yet
             that
             they
             are
             written
             for
             the
             purpose
             which
             our
             Brother
             expresseth
             ,
             viz.
             To
             shew
             that
             our
             Brethren
             of
             the
             opposite
             judgement
             do
             much
             Iudaize
             ,
             that
             I
             do
             utterly
             deny
             .
             For
             the
             places
             being
             viewed
             will
             plainly
             witnesse
             that
             wee
             bring
             the
             things
             alledged
             for
             another
             end
             ,
             viz.
             To
             shew
             whether
             the
             way
             that
             is
             called
             Independencie
             ,
             do
             make
             the
             people
             (
             as
             some
             have
             thought
             of
             it
             )
             more
             defective
             and
             improvident
             then
             their
             Law.
             For
             this
             being
             objected
             against
             that
             way
             ,
             wee
             in
             answer
             thereto
             do
             shew
             by
             sundry
             particulars
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             not
             that
             way
             that
             is
             justly
             culpable
             in
             this
             respect
             ,
             but
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             of
             the
             other
             Iudgement
             ;
             one
             way
             on
             the
             one
             side
             making
             the
             state
             of
             Christians
             in
             these
             dayes
             in
             some
             things
             equall
             to
             the
             Iewes
             ,
             and
             in
             other
             things
             more
             excellent
             ;
             and
             on
             the
             other
             side
             the
             way
             of
             
             our
             Brethren
             making
             our
             condition
             in
             many
             things
             more
             defective
             then
             was
             the
             condition
             of
             the
             Iewes
             .
             So
             that
             (
             not
             Iudayzing
             but
             )
             making
             our
             condition
             more
             defective
             then
             the
             Iewes
             ,
             is
             the
             thing
             which
             we
             here
             note
             in
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             our
             Brethren
             .
             Nor
             do
             I
             see
             how
             our
             Brother
             in
             his
             Answer
             doth
             free
             their
             Doctrine
             and
             way
             from
             being
             justly
             culpable
             in
             this
             respect
             .
             If
             we
             had
             intended
             the
             thing
             which
             he
             reporteth
             ,
             we
             would
             never
             have
             used
             such
             a
             reason
             as
             he
             truly
             report●
             us
             to
             use
             ,
             viz.
             That
             by
             appeales
             upon
             appeales
             causes
             according
             to
             our
             Brethrens
             way
             may
             be
             so
             protracted
             as
             never
             to
             be
             determined
             nor
             ended
             .
             For
             this
             reason
             hath
             neither
             strength
             nor
             colour
             of
             strength
             for
             such
             a
             purpose
             ,
             as
             he
             saith
             we
             bring
             it
             for
             ,
             inasmuch
             as
             it
             is
             well
             known
             ,
             that
             the
             Iewes
             had
             a
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             for
             the
             finall
             ending
             of
             causes
             among
             them
             .
             And
             therefore
             to
             say
             that
             our
             Brethren
             do
             Iudaize
             ,
             and
             then
             to
             give
             that
             for
             a
             reason
             which
             doth
             shew
             that
             the
             Iewes
             and
             they
             are
             very
             unlike
             ,
             the
             Iewes
             having
             a
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             for
             the
             finall
             ending
             of
             Cruses
             ,
             and
             they
             having
             none
             ,
             were
             to
             shew
             our selves
             very
             irrationall
             or
             worse
             :
             end
             why
             our
             Brother
             should
             put
             such
             a
             thing
             upon
             us
             ,
             we
             being
             no
             wayes
             guilty
             thereof
             ,
             we
             do
             not
             know
             .
             But
             we
             desire
             that
             our
             reason
             may
             be
             applyed
             to
             our
             own
             conclusion
             ,
             to
             which
             we
             did
             and
             do
             apply
             it
             ,
             and
             not
             to
             this
             other
             expressed
             by
             our
             Brother
             ,
             which
             indeed
             is
             none
             of
             ours
             ,
             and
             then
             we
             are
             content
             that
             rationall
             and
             judicious
             Readers
             may
             judge
             whether
             or
             no
             there
             be
             any
             sufficient
             weight
             therein
             .
             Which
             that
             they
             may
             more
             readily
             do
             ,
             I
             have
             here
             recollected
             the
             same
             into
             this
             short
             summe
             ,
             that
             they
             may
             briefly
             behold
             it
             with
             one
             view
             ,
             viz
             If
             the
             Iewes
             had
             a
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             for
             the
             finall
             ending
             of
             causes
             ,
             and
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             hath
             the
             like
             :
             If
             the
             Iewes
             had
             a
             standing
             Iudicatory
             alwayes
             in
             readinesse
             for
             the
             hearing
             of
             causes
             ,
             and
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             hath
             the
             like
             :
             and
             if
             the
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             among
             the
             Iewes
             was
             very
             farre
             remote
             from
             many
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             be
             more
             convenient
             and
             neere
             at
             hand
             ,
             then
             the
             Congregationall
             way
             is
             in
             some
             things
             equall
             to
             the
             Iewes
             and
             in
             other
             things
             more
             excellent
             .
          
           
             But
             the
             first
             is
             true
             in
             all
             the
             particulars
             ,
             and
             therefore
             the
             second
             is
             true
             also
             .
             Againe
             ,
             If
             the
             Iewes
             had
             a
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             for
             the
             finall
             ending
             of
             causes
             ,
             and
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             hath
             not
             :
             If
             the
             Iewes
             had
             a
             standing
             Iudicatory
             alwayes
             in
             readinesse
             for
             the
             hearing
             of
             causes
             and
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             hath
             not
             :
             and
             if
             the
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             among
             the
             Iewes
             was
             very
             remote
             from
             many
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             Synods
             among
             our
             Brethren
             are
             the
             same
             ,
             then
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             is
             in
             some
             things
             as
             defective
             as
             the
             Iewes
             ,
             and
             in
             other
             things
             more
             defective
             then
             theirs
             .
          
           
             But
             the
             first
             is
             true
             in
             all
             the
             particulars
             of
             it
             ,
             and
             therefore
             the
             second
             is
             true
             also
             .
          
           
             Both
             the
             Assumptions
             in
             all
             the
             branches
             thereof
             ,
             I
             conceive
             are
             cleerely
             proved
             in
             the
             Answer
             in
             the
             Pages
             which
             our
             Brother
             doth
             alledge
             ,
             and
             whether
             the
             Consequence
             be
             good
             let
             the
             wise
             judge
             .
          
           
             Having
             thus
             reduced
             our
             Argumentation
             to
             its
             own
             proper
             and
             genuine
             shape
             ,
             let
             us
             now
             consider
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             answer
             thereto
             .
          
           
             First
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             The
             speedinesse
             of
             ending
             controversies
             in
             a
             Congregation
             is
             badly
             comprised
             with
             the
             suddainnesse
             and
             temerity
             of
             delivering
             men
             to
             Satan
             upon
             the
             decision
             of
             three
             Elders
             ,
             without
             so
             much
             as
             asking
             
             advise
             of
             any
             Classes
             of
             Elders
             ,
             and
             with
             deciding
             questions
             deepe
             and
             grave
             which
             concerneth
             many
             Churches
             ,
             which
             is
             a
             putting
             of
             a
             private
             sickle
             in
             a
             common
             and
             publicke
             harvest
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             advise
             from
             other
             Churches
             may
             be
             had
             ,
             we
             never
             spake
             word
             for
             doing
             weighty
             matters
             without
             the
             same
             ,
             but
             in
             such
             cases
             it
             is
             both
             our
             practise
             and
             advise
             to
             make
             use
             thereof
             ,
             And
             therefore
             this
             delivering
             men
             to
             Satan
             in
             way
             of
             temerity
             or
             rashnesse
             toucheth
             not
             us
             whose
             opinion
             and
             practise
             is
             other
             wise
             .
          
           
             As
             for
             suddainnesse
             ,
             I
             conceive
             if
             the
             same
             be
             sometimes
             accompanyed
             with
             temerity
             and
             rashnesse
             ,
             and
             so
             worthy
             to
             be
             blamed
             ,
             yet
             not
             alwayes
             :
             for
             in
             the
             Reformation
             of
             the
             House
             of
             God
             in
             the
             dayes
             of
             Hezekiah
             ,
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             that
             the
             thing
             was
             done
             suddainly
             .
             2
             
               Chron.
               29.
               36.
               
               Where
               suddainnesse
               doth
               not
               signifie
               any
               sinfull
               temerity
               or
               r●shnesle
               .
            
             But
             contrarily
             doth
             testifie
             Gods
             great
             goodnesle
             that
             had
             so
             prepared
             the
             people
             to
             so
             good
             a
             worke
             :
             for
             this
             cause
             this
             suddainnesse
             was
             to
             Hezekiah
             ,
             and
             Gods
             people
             an
             occasion
             and
             ground
             of
             great
             joy
             and
             gladnesse
             ,
             which
             temerity
             could
             not
             have
             been
             .
             And
             therefore
             suddainnesse
             and
             temerity
             must
             not
             alwayes
             be
             confounded
             and
             coupled
             together
             ,
             as
             if
             they
             were
             the
             same
             .
          
           
             Though
             hasty
             delivering
             of
             men
             to
             Satan
             without
             due
             consideration
             be
             not
             good
             ,
             yet
             overlong
             delay
             of
             due
             proceeding
             against
             Delinquents
             is
             bad
             also
             ,
             for
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             tels
             us
             because
             sentence
             against
             an
             evill
             worke
             is
             not
             executed
             speedily
             ,
             therefore
             the
             heart
             of
             the
             sons
             of
             men
             is
             fully
             set
             to
             do
             evill
             ,
             
               Eccl.
               8.
               11.
               
               For
               which
               cause
               execute
               judgement
               in
               the
               morning
               ,
            
             that
             is
             to
             say
             speedily
             is
             sometimes
             expresly
             required
             ,
             Jer.
             21.
             12.
             
             Which
             being
             spoken
             of
             justice
             to
             be
             executed
             by
             civill
             Authority
             doth
             hold
             by
             proportion
             and
             like
             reason
             in
             Ecclesiasticall
             censures
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             speedinesle
             is
             a
             duty
             ,
             and
             delayes
             are
             daangerous
             in
             the
             one
             case
             as
             well
             as
             in
             the
             other
             .
          
           
             Whereas
             our
             Author
             thinkes
             much
             that
             Excommunication
             should
             proceed
             upon
             the
             decision
             of
             three
             Elders
             ,
             as
             we
             know
             nothing
             but
             a
             Congregation
             may
             have
             more
             Elders
             then
             the
             three
             ,
             if
             God
             provide
             them
             fit
             men
             and
             the
             numerousnesse
             of
             the
             Congregation
             so
             require
             ,
             in
             which
             case
             our
             Author
             saith
             nothing
             to
             the
             contrary
             ,
             but
             they
             may
             have
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             ,
             so
             if
             they
             have
             but
             three
             ,
             we
             know
             nothing
             in
             this
             ,
             but
             they
             may
             have
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             notwithstanding
             ,
             since
             himselfe
             teacheth
             ,
             
               Due
               Right
            
             .
             Page
             61.
             
             
               That
               the
               Iewes
               had
               their
               Congregationall
               Churches
               as
               we
               have
               ,
               and
               had
               their
               meeting
               in
               their
               Synagogues
               ,
               not
               only
               for
               Doctrine
               ,
               but
               also
               for
               Discipline
               and
               Excommunication
            
             ;
             Which
             if
             it
             be
             so
             ,
             it
             seemes
             there
             might
             be
             Excommunication
             by
             as
             small
             a
             number
             as
             three
             ,
             unlesse
             it
             could
             appeare
             that
             in
             every
             Synagogue
             the
             Elders
             and
             Rulers
             in
             it
             were
             a
             greater
             number
             then
             is
             here
             mentioned
             ,
             which
             is
             more
             then
             I
             do
             remember
             to
             be
             expressed
             in
             Scripture
             .
             Yea
             and
             further
             he
             tels
             us
             ,
             
               That
               the
               inferiour
               Iudicatures
               in
            
             Israel
             
               had
               power
               of
               life
               and
               death
               ,
               Page
            
             315.
             
             Now
             the
             Iudges
             in
             these
             inferiour
             Iudicatures
             though
             they
             must
             never
             be
             under
             that
             number
             of
             three
             ,
             yet
             they
             did
             not
             alwayes
             exceed
             the
             same
             ,
             for
             ought
             that
             doth
             appeare
             .
             And
             if
             three
             Iudges
             had
             power
             of
             life
             and
             death
             ,
             why
             may
             not
             a
             Congregation
             with
             three
             Elders
             have
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             ?
             Moreover
             ,
             in
             his
             Page
             454.
             
             He
             gives
             us
             these
             
             words
             for
             a
             Proposition
             ,
             
               That
               it
               floweth
               connaturally
               from
               a
               Church
               to
               which
               agreeth
               the
               essence
               of
               Church
               to
               exercise
               Jurisdiction
               over
               all
               its
               own
               members
               ;
               to
               which
               those
               words
               do
               also
               agree
               ,
               Page
            
             287.
             viz.
             
               The
               power
               and
               right
               to
               Discipline
               is
               a
               propriety
               essentiall
               to
               a
               Church
               and
               is
               not
               removed
               from
               it
               till
               God
               remove
               the
               Candlesticke
               ,
               and
               the
               Church
               cease
               to
               be
               a
               visible
               Church
               :
               And
               in
               Page
               302.
               
               Hee
               affords
               us
               these
               words
               for
               an
               Assumption
               ,
               that
               a
               Congregation
               is
               a
               Church
               ,
               wanting
               nothing
               of
               the
               being
               and
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               :
            
             And
             hence
             the
             conclusion
             is
             obvious
             ,
             that
             a
             Congregation
             may
             exercise
             Iurisdiction
             over
             all
             it
             own
             members
             :
             and
             in
             as
             much
             as
             a
             Congregation
             in
             which
             are
             but
             three
             Elders
             ,
             is
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             it
             followeth
             that
             a
             Congregation
             in
             which
             are
             but
             three
             Elders
             may
             exercise
             such
             Iurisdiction
             .
             This
             conclusion
             our
             Author
             cannot
             deny
             in
             as
             much
             as
             it
             necessarily
             and
             directly
             followeth
             from
             Premises
             which
             are
             both
             his
             own
             .
             Yea
             in
             his
             Page
             302.
             
             H●
             saith
             ,
             
               That
               this
               is
               a
               principle
               of
               Church
               policie
               ,
               that
               every
               politicke
               body
               of
               Christ
               hath
               power
               of
               Church
               government
               within
               it selfe
               .
            
             Either
             therefore
             a
             Congregation
             with
             only
             three
             Elders
             is
             no
             politicke
             body
             of
             Christ
             ,
             or
             else
             it
             must
             have
             power
             of
             Church
             government
             within
             it selfe
             .
             
               Besides
               ,
               if
               the
               power
               of
               Iurisdiction
               ordinary
               intensive
               be
               according
               to
               the
               entire
               essence
               of
               a
               Ministeriall
               Church
               be
               as
               compleat
               and
               perfect
               in
               one
               single
               Congregation
               ,
               as
               in
               a
               Provinciall
               ,
               Nationall
               ,
               or
               Catholike
               Church
               as
               our
               Author
               saith
               it
               is
               P.
            
             307.
             
             It
             is
             then
             a
             marvell
             why
             such
             a
             Congregation
             having
             onely
             three
             Elders
             ,
             may
             not
             have
             power
             to
             Excommunicate
             .
             Lastly
             ,
             his
             words
             are
             expresse
             ,
             Page
             338.
             
             
               Where
               there
               are
               not
               many
               Churches
               consociated
               ,
               then
               Ordination
               and
               Excommunication
               may
               be
               done
               by
               one
               single
               Congregation
               .
            
             If
             therefore
             a
             Congregation
             have
             not
             above
             three
             Elders
             ,
             yet
             being
             not
             consociated
             with
             other
             Churches
             ,
             it
             may
             lawfully
             Excommunicate
             ,
             by
             his
             own
             grant
             .
          
           
             For
             deciding
             questions
             that
             concerne
             many
             Churches
             ,
             if
             they
             decide
             them
             no
             further
             but
             onely
             as
             they
             concerne
             themselves
             ,
             this
             is
             no
             putting
             a
             private
             sickle
             in
             a
             common
             and
             publike
             Harvest
             ,
             but
             a
             medling
             with
             matters
             onely
             so
             farre
             as
             they
             doe
             concerne
             themselves
             .
          
           
             Secondly
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             All
             appeales
             without
             warrant
             from
             Christs
             will
             we
             condemne
             ,
             as
             the
             abuse
             of
             Appeales
             to
             a
             Court
             which
             is
             known
             shall
             never
             be
             ,
             Page
             425.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             appeales
             without
             warrant
             from
             Christ
             will
             be
             condemned
             ,
             why
             are
             wee
             not
             told
             what
             appeales
             they
             are
             ,
             that
             have
             the
             warrant
             of
             Christs
             will
             ,
             and
             what
             Appeales
             have
             not
             ?
             For
             such
             a
             generall
             word
             a●
             this
             ,
             of
             the
             warrant
             of
             Christs
             will
             ,
             without
             some
             further
             and
             more
             particular
             explication
             doth
             leave
             the
             matter
             as
             darke
             as
             it
             was
             before
             .
             If
             the
             meaning
             be
             ,
             that
             only
             such
             Appeales
             are
             unwarrantable
             as
             are
             made
             to
             a
             Court
             which
             is
             known
             shall
             never
             be
             ,
             and
             that
             all
             others
             are
             warrantable
             ,
             then
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             appeales
             to
             generall
             Councels
             and
             all
             other
             Courts
             ,
             except
             only
             from
             a
             generall
             Councell
             are
             warrantable
             ,
             for
             who
             doth
             certainely
             know
             that
             a
             generall
             Councell
             will
             never
             be
             ?
             And
             so
             by
             this
             meanes
             the
             Classes
             ,
             〈◊〉
             
             Synod
             ,
             and
             the
             Nationall
             Church
             are
             all
             deprived
             of
             supremacie
             ,
             and
             independencie
             of
             Iurisdiction
             as
             well
             as
             the
             Congregacion
             .
          
           
             Thirdly
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             Antiochs
             appeale
             to
             a
             Synod
             200
             miles
             distant
             as
             our
             Brethren
             say
             ,
             was
             no
             Judaizing
             but
             that
             which
             Paul
             and
             the
             Apostles
             were
             guilty
             of
             as
             well
             as
             we
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Whether
             Antioch
             and
             Jerusalem
             were
             200
             miles
             distant
             or
             no
             as
             we
             have
             never
             affirmed
             so
             much
             ,
             so
             I
             will
             not
             stand
             now
             to
             inquire
             .
             But
             this
             I
             stand
             upon
             ,
             that
             no
             Scripture
             doth
             witnesse
             that
             Antioch
             did
             appeale
             to
             Jerusalem
             in
             the
             point
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             about
             which
             our
             question
             doth
             lye
             ,
             if
             they
             did
             appeale
             to
             them
             for
             a
             Doctrinall
             decision
             or
             determination
             of
             the
             question
             ,
             that
             nothing
             hindereth
             our
             cause
             who
             do
             not
             deny
             such
             a
             Doctrinall
             power
             in
             Synods
             .
             But
             their
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             is
             the
             thing
             that
             should
             be
             proved
             .
             Lastly
             ,
             if
             this
             example
             of
             Antioch
             doe
             prove
             that
             there
             may
             bee
             and
             ought
             to
             bee
             appeales
             from
             Congregations
             to
             Synods
             ,
             though
             those
             Synods
             be
             200
             miles
             distant
             ,
             then
             that
             which
             wee
             said
             in
             the
             Answer
             is
             here
             confessed
             to
             be
             true
             :
             viz.
             That
             according
             to
             our
             Brethrens
             Iudgement
             the
             state
             of
             the
             Church
             in
             point
             of
             Discipline
             is
             as
             defective
             and
             burdensome
             in
             the
             time
             of
             the
             Gospell
             ,
             as
             it
             was
             in
             the
             dayes
             of
             the
             old
             Testament
             .
             For
             as
             then
             the
             supreame
             Iudicatory
             at
             Jerusalem
             was
             many
             miles
             distant
             from
             such
             as
             dwelt
             in
             the
             furthest
             parts
             of
             the
             Holy
             Land
             ,
             and
             specially
             from
             the
             Proselites
             that
             dwelt
             in
             other
             Countries
             ,
             so
             here
             our
             Author
             seemes
             to
             yeeld
             that
             in
             these
             dayes
             of
             the
             new
             Testament
             there
             must
             or
             may
             be
             appeales
             to
             Synods
             ,
             though
             they
             be
             200
             miles
             distant
             .
             I
             hope
             then
             if
             others
             blame
             our
             way
             for
             making
             the
             Gospell
             as
             defective
             and
             improvident
             as
             the
             Law
             ,
             or
             more
             defective
             then
             it
             ,
             yet
             this
             our
             Brother
             will
             not
             do
             so
             ,
             but
             on
             the
             contrary
             will
             acknowledge
             for
             us
             and
             with
             us
             ,
             that
             the
             way
             which
             himselfe
             pleads
             for
             ,
             is
             more
             justly
             culpable
             in
             this
             respect
             .
          
           
             Fourthly
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             Matters
             concerning
             many
             Churches
             must
             be
             handled
             by
             many
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             may
             be
             granted
             in
             a
             safe
             sence
             without
             any
             prejudice
             at
             all
             unto
             our
             cause
             ,
             for
             we
             are
             well
             content
             that
             so
             farre
             as
             they
             concerne
             many
             they
             may
             be
             handled
             by
             many
             ,
             so
             that
             each
             Congregation
             may
             have
             liberty
             to
             deale
             in
             them
             so
             farre
             as
             they
             concerne
             themselves
             .
          
           
             And
             thus
             you
             have
             all
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             brought
             against
             that
             passage
             of
             ours
             wherein
             we
             say
             it
             is
             not
             our
             way
             but
             theirs
             ,
             that
             doth
             make
             the
             Gospell
             more
             defective
             then
             the
             Law
             ,
             instead
             whereof
             he
             is
             pleased
             to
             make
             us
             say
             that
             they
             doe
             Iudaize
             ;
             But
             for
             eleering
             their
             way
             from
             that
             which
             wee
             object
             against
             the
             same
             ,
             or
             for
             convincing
             out
             way
             to
             be
             guilty
             thereof
             as
             by
             some
             hath
             been
             objected
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             in
             the
             place
             by
             him
             alledged
             ,
             for
             ought
             I
             perceive
             there
             is
             nothing
             in
             the
             foure
             particulars
             of
             his
             answer
             ,
             that
             doth
             any
             thing
             availe
             to
             either
             of
             these
             :
             for
             if
             a
             rash
             delivering
             of
             men
             to
             Satan
             have
             more
             evill
             in
             it
             then
             speedy
             ending
             of
             controversies
             hath
             good
             ▪
             If
             appeales
             without
             warrant
             from
             Christs
             will
             ,
             be
             unlawfull
             :
             If
             Antioch
             did
             appeale
             to
             a
             Synod
             200
             miles
             distant
             ,
             and
             if
             matters
             concerning
             many
             Churches
             must
             be
             ended
             by
             many
             ,
             which
             foure
             particulars
             are
             the
             whole
             substance
             of
             his
             answer
             ,
             what
             is
             there
             in
             all
             this
             (
             for
             I
             would
             gladly
             apply
             his
             Answers
             to
             the
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             what
             is
             there
             I
             say
             in
             all
             this
             that
             〈◊〉
             convince
             our
             way
             to
             be
             more
             defective
             then
             the
             way
             under
             the
             old
             Testament
             ?
             
             Or
             that
             doth
             cleere
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             from
             being
             truly
             culpable
             thereof
             ▪
             Let
             all
             the
             evill
             that
             can
             be
             found
             in
             rash
             delivering
             men
             to
             Satan
             be
             extended
             to
             the
             utmost
             ,
             and
             let
             the
             rest
             of
             the
             foure
             particulars
             be
             granted
             ,
             doth
             all
             this
             sufficiently
             cleere
             it
             that
             the
             way
             which
             we
             plead
             for
             is
             more
             defective
             ,
             or
             the
             way
             of
             our
             Brethren
             more
             perfect
             and
             excellent
             ,
             then
             the
             way
             that
             was
             used
             under
             the
             Law
             ?
             If
             they
             do
             not
             amount
             to
             the
             cleering
             of
             this
             ,
             they
             do
             not
             come
             up
             to
             cleere
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             which
             for
             ought
             I
             perceive
             doth
             still
             remaine
             as
             it
             was
             notwithstanding
             all
             that
             our
             Brother
             here
             brings
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             X.
             
          
           
             Whether
             the
             necessity
             of
             Discipline
             be
             greater
             then
             of
             Sacraments
             :
             and
             whether
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             may
             not
             exercise
             intirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             as
             well
             as
             one
             that
             hath
             none
             :
             and
             whether
             a
             man
             may
             take
             on
             him
             the
             whole
             Ministery
             having
             no
             outward
             calling
             thereto
             ;
             and
             may
             not
             as
             well
             take
             on
             him
             one
             act
             of
             Baptizing
             or
             Ministring
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             .
          
           
             
               THe
               next
               place
               where
               I
               find
               our
               Reverend
               Brother
               dealing
               with
               the
               Answer
               ,
               is
               in
               Page
               453
               ,
               454.
               
               Where
               disputing
               that
               there
               was
               a
               Presbyteriall
               Church
               at
            
             Ierusalem
             ,
             
               he
               saith
               it
               is
               Objected
               by
               us
               (
               alledging
               the
               Answer
               ,
               Page
               6.
               )
            
             That
             if
             a
             Church
             in
             an
             Iland
             by
             Divine
             institution
             and
             so
             the
             first
             Congregation
             as
             Ierusalem
             which
             did
             meete
             in
             Solomons
             Porch
             had
             once
             an
             intire
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             though
             in
             an
             extraordinary
             case
             ,
             the
             case
             is
             ordinary
             ,
             as
             in
             the
             Dominion
             of
             Wales
             there
             is
             scarce
             a
             Congregation
             to
             be
             found
             within
             20
             ,
             or
             30
             miles
             .
             2.
             
             Suppose
             the
             case
             were
             extraordinary
             and
             rare
             ,
             may
             they
             violate
             the
             ordinary
             rules
             of
             Christ
             ?
             For
             so
             some
             may
             thinke
             and
             say
             that
             though
             according
             to
             ordinary
             rules
             ,
             Baptisme
             and
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             must
             be
             dispensed
             only
             by
             men
             and
             by
             Ministers
             ,
             yet
             in
             the
             want
             of
             these
             the
             one
             may
             be
             dispensed
             by
             a
             woman
             or
             mid-wife
             ,
             and
             both
             of
             them
             by
             such
             as
             are
             no
             Ministers
             .
             And
             then
             hee
             subjoyneth
             his
             Answer
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Our
             Authors
             scope
             and
             intention
             being
             to
             prove
             a
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             I
             cannot
             apprehend
             a
             good
             reason
             ,
             why
             now
             he
             should
             fall
             upon
             the
             place
             of
             the
             Answer
             alledged
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             at
             the
             place
             makes
             not
             any
             mention
             of
             Ierusalem
             at
             all
             ,
             nor
             of
             any
             Presbyteriall
             Church
             there
             ,
             either
             one
             way
             or
             other
             .
             But
             it
             seemes
             he
             was
             willing
             to
             go
             something
             out
             of
             his
             way
             that
             so
             he
             might
             have
             a
             saying
             
             to
             the
             Answer
             ,
             yet
             if
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             so
             ,
             I
             could
             have
             desired
             that
             the
             words
             of
             the
             Answer
             might
             have
             been
             kept
             ,
             without
             making
             alteration
             by
             leaving
             some
             things
             out
             ,
             and
             putting
             others
             in
             of
             his
             own
             accord
             ,
             and
             by
             mentioning
             others
             with
             another
             face
             then
             was
             ever
             intended
             by
             us
             .
             For
             though
             he
             is
             pleased
             to
             mention
             a
             Church
             in
             an
             Iland
             and
             the
             first
             founded
             Congregation
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             in
             his
             Objection
             which
             he●
             brings
             in
             under
             Mr.
             Tompsons
             name
             and
             mine
             ,
             yet
             he
             that
             shall
             peruse
             the
             place
             will
             find
             that
             neither
             of
             these
             are
             once
             mentioned
             by
             us
             at
             all
             ,
             and
             why
             then
             they
             should
             be
             brought
             in
             as
             ours
             I
             do
             not
             know
             .
             And
             for
             the
             former
             part
             of
             our
             Answer
             ,
             wherein
             we
             show
             that
             for
             a
             Christian
             Congregation
             to
             want
             neighbour
             Congregations
             to
             whom
             they
             may
             with
             conveniency
             have
             recourse
             ,
             and
             not
             so
             unusuall
             as
             some
             may
             imagine
             ,
             we
             do
             not
             only
             alledge
             for
             that
             end
             the
             Dominion
             of
             Wales
             as
             our
             Brother
             doth
             report
             ,
             but
             also
             the
             remoter
             parts
             of
             the
             North
             ,
             and
             specially
             the
             state
             of
             things
             in
             times
             and
             places
             of
             generall
             Persecution
             and
             generall
             prophanenesse
             ,
             and
             new
             Plantations
             in
             Heathen
             Countries
             ;
             all
             which
             our
             Brother
             doth
             omit
             ,
             as
             if
             wee
             had
             not
             mentioned
             any
             of
             them
             .
             And
             whereas
             we
             mention
             the
             scarcity
             of
             Congregations
             in
             the
             remoter
             parts
             of
             Wales
             and
             of
             the
             North
             ,
             as
             intimated
             by
             our
             Reverend
             Brother
             Mr.
             Herle
             in
             that
             learned
             and
             loving
             discourse
             of
             his
             ,
             whereto
             we
             doe
             apply
             our
             Answer
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             concealeth
             that
             we
             do
             mention
             this
             ,
             as
             the
             apprehension
             or
             intimation
             of
             another
             ,
             and
             instead
             thereof
             makes
             bold
             to
             set
             it
             downe
             under
             our
             name
             ,
             as
             if
             we
             had
             delivered
             it
             as
             our
             own
             .
             All
             which
             alterations
             ,
             omissions
             and
             additions
             are
             such
             as
             wee
             for
             our
             parts
             would
             not
             willingly
             have
             made
             the
             like
             in
             any
             worke
             of
             his
             nor
             of
             any
             other
             man.
             For
             let
             such
             liberty
             as
             this
             be
             taken
             in
             repeating
             what
             men
             do
             speake
             or
             write
             ,
             and
             misapprehension
             of
             their
             true
             ●ntent
             and
             meaning
             must
             needs
             be
             bred
             hereby
             in
             the
             minds
             of
             all
             those
             that
             shall
             read
             or
             heare
             such
             reports
             and
             beleeve
             the
             same
             .
             Neverthelesse
             ,
             let
             us
             consider
             what
             our
             Brother
             doth
             returne
             in
             his
             Answer
             .
          
           
             We
             thinke
             saith
             he
             ,
             a
             Ministery
             and
             Discipline
             more
             necessary
             to
             a
             Congregation
             in
             a
             remote
             Iland
             ,
             or
             to
             the
             Church
             of
             Ierusalem
             before
             they
             increase
             to
             such
             a
             number
             as
             cannot
             meet
             for
             their
             numerous
             multitude
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             then
             the
             Sacraments
             when
             there
             be
             no
             Ministers
             to
             dispense
             them
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Would
             not
             one
             thinke
             by
             th●se
             words
             ,
             and
             the
             other
             laid
             down
             in
             the
             Objection
             ,
             that
             we
             had
             spoken
             something
             of
             a
             Church
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             Church
             in
             Jerusalem
             ?
             Else
             why
             should
             these
             be
             objected
             ,
             and
             answered
             as
             ours
             ?
             But
             th
             truth
             is
             we
             have
             not
             spoken
             one
             word
             either
             of
             the
             one
             or
             the
             other
             of
             these
             particulars
             :
             which
             will
             plainly
             appeare
             to
             him
             that
             shall
             view
             the
             place
             .
             Something
             wee
             have
             spoken
             in
             the
             generall
             of
             a
             Congregation
             that
             wants
             neighbours
             ,
             which
             we
             did
             being
             thereunto
             led
             by
             our
             Reverend
             Brother
             Mr.
             Herle
             ,
             but
             of
             a
             Church
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             in
             particular
             ,
             of
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             heere
             speaks
             ,
             of
             these
             we
             have
             said
             nothing
             .
          
           
             Second
             ,
             the
             former
             part
             of
             our
             answer
             ,
             that
             for
             a
             Congregation
             to
             want
             neighbours
             is
             not
             so
             unusuall
             as
             some
             may
             imagine
             ,
             this
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             wholly
             passeth
             over
             in
             silence
             ,
             only
             he
             propounds
             it
             in
             his
             Objection
             in
             such
             sort
             as
             we
             have
             heard
             ,
             and
             so
             leaves
             it
             ,
             whereby
             it
             seemes
             he
             yeelds
             the
             thing
             .
             And
             thereupon
             it
             followes
             ,
             that
             intirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             a
             Congregation
             must
             be
             yeelded
             frequently
             lawfull
             ,
             
             it
             being
             frequently
             seene
             ,
             that
             Congregations
             want
             neighbours
             in
             which
             case
             their
             intirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             is
             not
             denyed
             .
          
           
             Third
             ,
             for
             the
             second
             part
             of
             our
             answer
             ,
             we
             thus
             expresse
             our selves
             therein
             .
             
               viz.
               That
               we
               suppose
               it
               is
               good
               to
               take
               heed
               how
               farre
               we
               yeeld
               it
               lawfull
               in
               extraordinary
               cases
               to
               transgresse
               and
               violate
               ordinary
               rules
               ,
               whereof
               wee
               render
               the
               reason
               ,
               least
               some
               body
               doe
               thence
               inferre
               the
               lawfulnesse
               of
               ministring
               Sacraments
               by
               non-Ministers
               ,
               in
               case
               Ministers
               be
               wanting
               .
            
             This
             is
             that
             which
             we
             have
             said
             in
             this
             matter
             .
             If
             therefore
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             take
             away
             what
             we
             have
             said
             herein
             ,
             he
             must
             say
             it
             is
             not
             good
             nor
             needfull
             to
             take
             such
             heed
             ,
             but
             men
             may
             yeeld
             it
             lawfull
             in
             such
             cases
             to
             transgresse
             and
             violate
             ordinary
             rules
             ,
             and
             never
             need
             to
             take
             heed
             how
             farre
             they
             yeeld
             therein
             .
             This
             indeed
             were
             contradictory
             to
             what
             we
             have
             said
             ,
             and
             if
             this
             be
             once
             cleered
             for
             truth
             ,
             then
             I
             must
             confesse
             our
             saying
             is
             cleerely
             disproved
             .
             But
             the
             cleering
             of
             this
             we
             hope
             our
             Brother
             will
             never
             attempt
             :
             Sure
             yet
             he
             hath
             not
             done
             it
             ,
             and
             so
             our
             saying
             yet
             remaines
             as
             it
             was
             .
          
           
             Fourth
             ,
             Whereas
             he
             saith
             he
             thinkes
             a
             Ministery
             and
             Discipline
             more
             necessary
             in
             the
             cases
             he
             speaks
             of
             ,
             then
             Sacraments
             and
             there
             be
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             though
             this
             be
             not
             directly
             opposite
             to
             what
             we
             have
             said
             ,
             yet
             because
             I
             would
             consider
             of
             every
             thing
             wherein
             he
             seemes
             to
             ayme
             at
             us
             ,
             therefore
             I
             am
             willing
             to
             consider
             of
             this
             also
             .
             Our
             Reverend
             Brother
             thinkes
             Discipline
             in
             the
             cases
             mentioned
             more
             necessary
             then
             Sacraments
             :
             and
             yet
             in
             his
             Page
             287
             ,
             288.
             handling
             that
             question
             ,
             whether
             Discipline
             be
             a
             marke
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             ,
             and
             laying
             down
             sundry
             distinctions
             about
             the
             same
             ,
             hee
             gives
             us
             these
             severall
             Propositions
             in
             termes
             :
             
               First
               ,
               care
               to
               exercise
               Discipline
               may
               be
               wanting
               in
               a
               true
               Church
               .
               Second
               ,
               right
               Discipline
               is
               not
               necessary
               to
               the
               essence
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               as
               a
               City
               may
               bee
               without
               Wals
               ,
               a
               Garden
               without
               a
               hedge
               .
               Third
               ,
               the
               exercise
               of
               Discipline
               may
               be
               wanting
               ,
               and
               the
               Church
               a
               true
               visible
               Church
               .
               Fourth
               ,
               the
               Church
               may
               retaine
               the
               essence
               and
               being
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               ,
               and
               yet
               have
               no
               Discipline
               in
               actuall
               use
               or
               little
               ,
               in
               which
               place
               he
               cites
               and
               approves
               the
               judgement
               of
            
             Parker
             ,
             Cartwright
             
               and
               others
               ;
               who
               make
               Discipline
               necessary
               only
               to
               the
               wel-being
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
               as
               being
               not
               indifferent
               but
               commanded
               in
               the
               word
               and
               necessary
               in
               respect
               of
               its
               end
               .
            
             Now
             if
             this
             be
             all
             the
             necessity
             that
             is
             in
             Discipline
             ,
             how
             is
             Discipline
             more
             necessary
             then
             Sacraments
             ?
             For
             may
             not
             as
             much
             bee
             said
             of
             them
             as
             here
             is
             said
             of
             Discipline
             ?
             Are
             not
             Sacraments
             necessary
             to
             the
             well-being
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             as
             being
             commanded
             in
             the
             word
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             Discipline
             is
             ?
             And
             serving
             for
             excellent
             ends
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             Discipline
             doth
             ?
             I
             suppose
             it
             will
             n●●
             be
             denyed
             ,
             and
             therefore
             the
             necessity
             of
             Discipline
             above
             Sacraments
             doth
             not
             yet
             appeare
             .
             Especially
             if
             that
             be
             considered
             withall
             which
             our
             Brother
             teacheth
             else-where
             .
             viz.
             In
             his
             second
             P.
             211.
             
               &
               sequ
            
             .
             Where
             he
             tels
             us
             ,
             
               That
               Sacraments
               are
               not
               only
               declarative
               signes
               ,
               but
               also
               reall
               exhibitive
               seales
               of
               Grace
               ,
               having
               a
               causality
               in
               them
               to
               make
               a
               thing
               that
               was
               not
               ,
               and
               so
               excelling
               all
               civill
               Seales
               which
               do
               adde
               no
               
               new
               Lands
               to
               the
               owner
               of
               the
               Charter
               sealed
               therewith
               .
            
             Now
             if
             Sacraments
             be
             thus
             excellent
             and
             effectuall
             ,
             how
             is
             it
             that
             in
             the
             place
             wee
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             Discipline
             is
             made
             more
             necessary
             then
             they
             ?
             For
             a
             greater
             Elogie
             then
             here
             hee
             gives
             to
             Sacraments
             ,
             I
             suppose
             himselfe
             would
             not
             give
             unto
             Discipline
             .
             Yea
             in
             P.
             302
             he
             expresly
             affirmes
             ,
             
               That
               Preaching
               of
               the
               word
               and
               administration
               of
               the
               Sacraments
               are
               essentiall
               notes
               of
               the
               visible
               Church
               .
            
             But
             of
             Discipline
             I
             conceive
             he
             will
             not
             say
             the
             same
             ,
             sure
             it
             is
             in
             the
             Page
             following
             distinguishing
             betwixt
             notes
             of
             the
             Church
             which
             are
             necessary
             
               ad●sse
               ,
               To
               the
               very
               being
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               ,
               and
               such
               as
               are
               necessary
               only
            
             ad
             bene
             esse
             ,
             
               to
               the
               well-being
               thereof
               ,
               he
               expresly
               makes
               Discipline
               a
               worke
               or
               note
               of
               this
               second
               sort
               ,
               and
               as
               we
               heard
               ere-while
               ,
               he
               in
               Page
               287
               expresly
               affirmes
               it
               is
               not
               necessary
               to
               the
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               .
            
             And
             therefore
             it
             is
             some
             marvell
             why
             now
             〈◊〉
             makes
             Discipline
             more
             necessary
             then
             Sacraments
             .
          
           
             
               But
               he
               gives
               us
               two
               reasons
               of
               this
               greater
               necessity
               of
               Discipline
               then
               of
               Sacraments
               .
            
             First
             ,
             that
             intire
             power
             of
             Discipline
             in
             a
             Congregation
             that
             wants
             neighbours
             is
             not
             extraordinary
             Second
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             no
             such
             morall
             necessity
             of
             Sacraments
             ,
             as
             there
             is
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             Page
             455.
             
          
           
             
               Concerning
               the
               former
               his
               words
               are
               these
               ,
            
             viz.
             
               That
               the
               Church
               be
               in
               an
               Iland
               it selfe
               alone
               may
               possibly
               be
               extraordinary
               ,
               but
               that
               in
               such
               a
               case
               they
               have
               intire
               power
               of
               discipline
               whole
               and
               entire
               within
               themselves
               to
               Excommunicate
               Scandalous
               persons
               is
               not
               extraordinary
               .
            
             Wherein
             first
             of
             all
             I
             observe
             a
             difference
             between
             him
             and
             our
             Reverend
             Brother
             Mr.
             Herle
             ,
             who
             having
             granted
             that
             where
             there
             is
             no
             consociation
             or
             neighbour-hood
             of
             Congregations
             ,
             there
             a
             single
             Congregation
             must
             not
             be
             denyed
             intirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             doth
             presently
             adde
             that
             the
             case
             is
             extraordinary
             ,
             and
             so
             fals
             not
             within
             the
             compasse
             of
             the
             question
             of
             the
             ordinary
             rule
             of
             Church-government
             :
             Independencie
             of
             Churches
             ,
             P.
             2.
             plainly
             confessing
             that
             the
             case
             is
             extraordinary
             ,
             whereas
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             here
             saith
             it
             is
             not
             .
          
           
             Second
             ,
             as
             he
             expresly
             differs
             from
             Mr.
             Herle
             ,
             so
             it
             is
             considerable
             whether
             his
             words
             do
             well
             agree
             with
             themselves
             .
             
               For
               saith
               he
               ,
               That
               the
               Church
               be
               in
               an
               Iland
               it selfe
               alone
               may
               be
               extraordinary
               ,
               but
               that
               in
               such
               case
               they
               have
               entire
               power
               of
               Iurisdiction
               of
               Discipline
               within
               themselves
               ,
               to
               Excommunicate
               Scandalous
               persons
               ,
               is
               not
               extraordinary
               .
            
             Which
             saying
             needs
             good
             explication
             .
             For
             it
             seemes
             hard
             to
             conceive
             how
             the
             power
             and
             actions
             of
             any
             subject
             or
             efficient
             should
             be
             more
             usuall
             and
             ordinary
             then
             it
             s
             very
             being
             and
             subsistance
             :
             Which
             yet
             must
             needs
             bee
             ,
             if
             this
             stand
             good
             that
             the
             being
             of
             a
             Church
             in
             an
             Iland
             is
             extraordinary
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             power
             of
             such
             a
             Church
             to
             Excommunicate
             is
             usuall
             and
             ordinary
          
           
             Third
             ,
             If
             their
             power
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             yea
             intire
             Power
             be
             in
             the
             case
             expressed
             or●●●ary
             ,
             shall
             we
             then
             say
             that
             if
             the
             case
             ●e
             otherwise
             so
             that
             a
             Church
             be
             not
             alone
             
             but
             have
             neighbours
             ,
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             such
             a
             case
             is
             extraordinary
             ?
             It
             seemes
             a●
             must
             ●ay
             〈◊〉
             ,
             or
             else
             wee
             must
             say
             that
             intirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             both
             cases
             is
             ordinary
             .
             If
             this
             latter
             be
             said
             ,
             it
             is
             as
             much
             as
             we
             desire
             :
             for
             then
             I
             hope
             it
             must
             not
             be
             a
             small
             〈◊〉
             ordinary
             matter
             ,
             that
             must
             hinder
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             from
             exercising
             〈…〉
             ●●●●diction
             within
             themselves
             ,
             no
             more
             then
             a
             Church
             that
             lives
             alone
             ,
             〈…〉
             power
             being
             ordinary
             in
             them
             both
             .
             For
             if
             it
             be
             so
             in
             them
             both
             ,
             in
             the
             one
             as
             well
             as
             in
             the
             other
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             why
             any
             small
             or
             ordinary
             matter
             should
             hinder
             the
             one
             Church
             any
             more
             then
             the
             other
             from
             the
             use
             and
             exercise
             of
             such
             entire
             power
             .
             If
             we
             say
             that
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             is
             extraordinary
             ,
             though
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             is
             alone
             it
             be
             ordinary
             ,
             besides
             that
             such
             a
             saying
             sounds
             harshly
             and
             seemes
             very
             improbable
             ,
             we
             shall
             by
             this
             meanes
             make
             cases
             extraordinary
             to
             be
             very
             frequent
             &
             usuall
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             as
             all
             men
             know
             it
             is
             very
             usuall
             for
             Congregationall
             Churches
             to
             have
             neighbours
             :
             and
             so
             if
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             be
             extraordinary
             ,
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             extraorninary
             power
             is
             very
             usuall
             and
             frequent
             ;
             so
             that
             inconveniences
             on
             each
             side
             do
             seeme
             inevitably
             to
             follow
             against
             our
             Brothers
             cause
             ,
             upon
             this
             which
             here
             he
             affirmeth
             ,
             that
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             is
             alone
             is
             not
             extraordinary
             .
          
           
             But
             let
             us
             here
             his
             reason
             in
             the
             subsequent
             words
             ,
             why
             this
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             is
             alone
             is
             not
             extraordinary
             .
             
               For
               it
               floweth
               saith
               he
               ,
               continually
               from
               a
               Church
               ,
               to
               which
               agreeth
               the
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               ,
               to
               exercise
               Iurisdiction
               over
               all
               its
               own
               members
               .
            
             And
             I
             suppose
             he
             must
             meane
             this
             of
             Iurisdiction
             entire
             and
             compleat
             ,
             for
             of
             this
             is
             the
             question
             ,
             and
             a
             few
             lines
             afore
             ,
             
               He
               expresly
               cals
               it
               entire
               power
               of
               Discipline
               ,
               whole
               and
               entire
               within
               themselves
               .
            
             Now
             if
             this
             be
             true
             which
             here
             is
             said
             ,
             as
             for
             my
             part
             I
             conceive
             no
             other
             of
             it
             ,
             that
             it
             floweth
             connaturally
             from
             a
             Church
             ,
             to
             which
             agreeth
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             to
             exercise
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             over
             all
             its
             own
             members
             ,
             then
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             as
             well
             as
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             none
             must
             have
             this
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             sith
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             doth
             agree
             to
             the
             one
             as
             well
             as
             to
             the
             other
             ,
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             as
             well
             as
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             is
             alone
             .
             Our
             Author
             tels
             us
             Page
             302.
             
             
               That
               a
               Congregation
               in
               an
               Iland
               is
               a
               Church
               properly
               so
               called
               ,
               and
               hath
               the
               essentiall
               notes
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               agreeing
               to
               it
               ,
               and
               wants
               nothing
               of
               the
               being
               and
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               .
            
             And
             if
             this
             be
             true
             of
             a
             Church
             that
             is
             alone
             ,
             shall
             we
             thinke
             it
             is
             not
             true
             of
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ?
             Doth
             the
             accession
             of
             neighbours
             to
             a
             Congregation
             take
             away
             from
             such
             a
             Congregation
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             which
             it
             had
             before
             ?
             I
             conceive
             none
             will
             so
             say
             .
             And
             if
             every
             Church
             to
             which
             agreeth
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             may
             exercise
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             over
             all
             its
             own
             members
             ,
             as
             our
             Brother
             doth
             acknowledge
             ,
             it
             followeth
             unavoidably
             thereupon
             that
             all
             Congregationall
             Churches
             ,
             such
             as
             have
             neighbours
             and
             such
             as
             have
             none
             may
             exercise
             such
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             sith
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             doth
             agree
             unto
             them
             all
             .
             Vnlesse
             he
             will
             deny
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             to
             a
             Congregation
             which
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             which
             hee
             freely
             yeeldeth
             to
             a
             Congregation
             which
             is
             alone
             ,
             he
             must
             grant
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             unto
             them
             both
             ,
             because
             he
             grants
             it
             to
             the
             one
             upon
             this
             reason
             ,
             that
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             
             Church
             doth
             agree
             thereunto
             ,
             which
             reason
             if
             it
             agree
             to
             both
             ,
             how
             can
             i●
             be
             avoided
             but
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             must
             be
             in
             both
             ?
             And
             how
             can
             it
             be
             affirmed
             or
             imagined
             that
             a
             Congregation
             having
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             afore
             and
             have
             neighbours
             ,
             should
             lose
             this
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             when
             neighbours
             are
             added
             to
             it
             ?
             A
             family
             having
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             family
             now
             it
             is
             alone
             ,
             doth
             not
             lose
             this
             essence
             by
             meanes
             of
             other
             families
             added
             .
             Nor
             doth
             a
             City
             that
             is
             such
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             alone
             lose
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             City
             by
             the
             accesse
             of
             other
             Cities
             :
             and
             the
             same
             might
             be
             said
             of
             a
             Corporation
             ,
             a
             Province
             ,
             a
             Kingdome
             ,
             or
             any
             other
             society
             whatsoever
             .
             And
             that
             it
             should
             be
             otherwise
             with
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             ,
             that
             it
             should
             lose
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             as
             other
             neighbours
             Churches
             do
             arise
             ,
             doth
             seeme
             very
             strange
             and
             unreasonable
             .
             And
             let
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             be
             still
             retayned
             by
             such
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             as
             I
             conceive
             it
             must
             ,
             and
             then
             intirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             must
             not
             be
             denyed
             to
             such
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             sith
             it
             doth
             flow
             connaturally
             from
             every
             Church
             to
             which
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             doth
             agree
             .
          
           
             If
             there
             bee
             no
             more
             consociated
             with
             that
             Church
             that
             is
             by
             accident
             ,
             and
             an
             extraordinary
             exigence
             of
             Gods
             Providence
             .
             As
             a
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             is
             to
             educate
             his
             children
             in
             the
             feare
             of
             God
             ,
             but
             if
             God
             take
             all
             his
             children
             from
             him
             by
             death
             ,
             he
             doth
             not
             transgresse
             the
             ordinary
             rule
             of
             educating
             his
             children
             in
             the
             feare
             of
             God
             ,
             as
             he
             hath
             none
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             this
             comparison
             doe
             suit
             the
             present
             purpose
             and
             case
             in
             hand
             ,
             then
             this
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             is
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             these
             his
             children
             are
             the
             members
             of
             other
             Congregations
             :
             And
             so
             as
             a
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             needs
             not
             to
             educate
             his
             children
             in
             Gods
             feare
             ,
             when
             they
             are
             all
             taken
             from
             him
             by
             death
             ,
             so
             a
             Congregation
             needs
             not
             to
             governe
             the
             members
             of
             other
             Congregation
             as
             there
             are
             no
             other
             Congregation
             extant
             ,
             but
             it selfe
             is
             left
             alone
             in
             an
             Iland
             .
             In
             which
             kind
             of
             arguing
             sundry
             things
             may
             be
             excepted
             against
             .
             As
             fir●●
             of
             all
             that
             there
             should
             be
             such
             power
             in
             a
             Congregation
             as
             in
             a
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             over
             his
             own
             children
             ,
             which
             needs
             a
             good
             deale
             of
             proofe
             afore
             it
             may
             be
             yeelded
             ,
             in
             as
             much
             as
             the
             power
             of
             the
             one
             is
             plainly
             and
             plentifully
             taught
             in
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             as
             
               Eph.
               4.
               6.
               
               Col.
               3.
               
               Deut.
               6.
               7.
               
               Deut.
            
             21.
             
             And
             many
             other
             places
             .
             But
             I
             desire
             one
             cleere
             place
             of
             Scripture
             ,
             in
             all
             the
             Book
             of
             God
             either
             old
             Testament
             or
             new
             ,
             to
             shew
             the
             like
             power
             in
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             ,
             over
             the
             members
             of
             other
             Churches
             .
             Againe
             ,
             when
             a
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             hath
             all
             his
             children
             taken
             from
             him
             by
             death
             ,
             he
             hath
             then
             no
             children
             of
             his
             own
             to
             governe
             ,
             but
             wants
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             &
             is
             left
             alone
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             the
             Presbytery
             of
             that
             Congregation
             is
             left
             alone
             ,
             but
             have
             still
             the
             members
             of
             that
             Congregation
             whom
             they
             may
             and
             ought
             to
             guide
             and
             governe
             in
             the
             feare
             of
             God
             ,
             which
             is
             another
             particular
             wherein
             the
             comparison
             failes
             .
          
           
             But
             though
             the
             similitude
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             laid
             it
             down
             ,
             doth
             not
             confirme
             his
             purpose
             ,
             yet
             I
             conceive
             it
             may
             be
             ▪
             so
             framed
             and
             applyed
             as
             that
             it
             may
             well
             serve
             for
             the
             weekning
             thereof
             ,
             thus
             ;
             A
             Master
             of
             a
             family
             having
             (
             when
             that
             family
             is
             alone
             )
             entire
             power
             to
             governe
             his
             family
             in
             the
             feare
             of
             God
             ,
             when
             other
             families
             do
             arise
             that
             become
             neighbours
             neere
             adjoyning
             ,
             he
             is
             not
             by
             this
             meanes
             deprived
             of
             the
             power
             which
             he
             had
             before
             ,
             but
             still
             retaines
             the
             same
             entire
             and
             compleate
             as
             formerly
             it
             was
             :
             even
             so
             the
             Presbytery
             of
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             having
             (
             when
             that
             Congregation
             is
             alone
             ,
             )
             entire
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             over
             its
             own
             members
             ,
             
             is
             not
             when
             neighbour
             Congregation
             do
             arise
             ,
             deprived
             by
             this
             meanes
             of
             the
             power
             which
             it
             had
             before
             ,
             but
             still
             retaines
             the
             same
             entire
             as
             formerly
             it
             was
             .
             Againe
             ,
             though
             when
             God
             takes
             away
             a
             mans
             children
             by
             death
             ,
             he
             is
             no
             longer
             bound
             to
             educate
             and
             governe
             those
             children
             in
             the
             feare
             of
             God
             ,
             yet
             as
             long
             as
             his
             children
             live
             with
             him
             in
             his
             family
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             the
             sitting
             down
             of
             other
             families
             neere
             by
             him
             that
             can
             take
             away
             this
             power
             from
             him
             ,
             or
             discharge
             him
             of
             this
             duty
             :
             even
             so
             ,
             though
             when
             members
             of
             a
             Congregation
             be
             taken
             away
             by
             death
             or
             otherwise
             ,
             the
             Congregation
             or
             its
             Presbytery
             doth
             no
             longer
             stand
             charged
             or
             bound
             with
             the
             oversight
             and
             government
             of
             such
             members
             yet
             as
             long
             as
             they
             live
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             the
             arising
             of
             other
             Congregations
             neere
             to
             them
             that
             can
             free
             them
             from
             the
             power
             wherewith
             they
             were
             invested
             ,
             nor
             from
             the
             duty
             wherewith
             they
             were
             formerly
             charged
             towards
             such
             members
             ,
             Thus
             the
             comparison
             runs
             even
             ,
             and
             we
             see
             our
             Brothers
             cause
             is
             not
             a
             little
             disadvantaged
             thereby
             .
             But
             as
             he
             hath
             laid
             it
             down
             ,
             it
             doth
             so
             apparantly
             faile
             that
             I
             do
             not
             perceive
             how
             it
             can
             afford
             him
             any
             helpe
             at
             all
             .
          
           
             This
             argument
             supposeth
             that
             the
             Congregation
             hath
             no
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             at
             all
             ,
             either
             compleat
             or
             incompleate
             ,
             as
             the
             Midwife
             hath
             no
             power
             to
             Baptize
             ,
             either
             compleate
             or
             incompleate
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Suppose
             a
             Congregation
             have
             an
             incompleate
             power
             when
             they
             have
             neighbours
             ,
             how
             shall
             it
             appeare
             that
             when
             they
             are
             alone
             their
             power
             is
             now
             compleat
             ?
             Or
             how
             will
             it
             be
             avoided
             but
             by
             the
             like
             reason
             ,
             one
             Elder
             alone
             may
             Excommunicate
             in
             case
             there
             be
             no
             other
             Elders
             to
             joyne
             with
             him
             ?
             For
             plain
             it
             is
             ,
             that
             one
             Elder
             when
             their
             is
             a
             full
             Presbytery
             or
             Classis
             hath
             an
             incompleate
             power
             ,
             though
             not
             a
             compleat
             .
             And
             yet
             I
             hope
             this
             incompleat
             power
             in
             one
             Elder
             when
             there
             are
             other
             Elders
             joyned
             with
             him
             ,
             will
             not
             warrant
             him
             to
             exercise
             a
             power
             compleat
             when
             he
             is
             alone
             ,
             because
             such
             a
             power
             must
             be
             exercised
             by
             a
             Church
             ,
             with
             one
             Elder
             alone
             cannot
             be
             .
             And
             if
             one
             Elder
             having
             an
             incompleat
             power
             when
             he
             is
             joyned
             with
             others
             ,
             may
             not
             exercise
             a
             compleat
             power
             when
             he
             is
             alone
             ,
             how
             will
             the
             incompleat
             power
             of
             a
             Congregation
             when
             they
             have
             neighbours
             (
             suppose
             that
             in
             such
             case
             their
             power
             were
             indeed
             incompleate
             )
             how
             will
             this
             I
             say
             warr●nt
             that
             Congregation
             when
             they
             are
             alone
             to
             exercise
             a
             compleat
             power
             ?
             For
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             the
             compleat
             power
             of
             the
             Congregation
             is
             no
             more
             warranted
             upon
             this
             ground
             ,
             then
             the
             like
             power
             of
             one
             Elder
             upon
             the
             same
             ground
             ,
             the
             cases
             being
             alike
             in
             both
             .
          
           
             Neither
             doth
             a
             Congregation
             transgresse
             any
             rule
             of
             Christ
             at
             all
             when
             it
             exerciseth
             entire
             power
             of
             censures
             within
             it self
             ,
             whereas
             there
             be
             no
             consociated
             ●hurches
             to
             share
             with
             it
             in
             that
             power
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             I
             grant
             is
             very
             true
             ;
             and
             I
             desire
             it
             may
             not
             be
             recalled
             ,
             but
             may
             still
             stand
             as
             here
             it
             is
             expresly
             given
             to
             us
             ;
             and
             then
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             what
             rule
             of
             Christ
             is
             transgressed
             ,
             if
             an
             other
             Congregation
             ,
             I
             meane
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             do
             exercise
             the
             like
             power
             .
             For
             my
             part
             I
             know
             no
             such
             rule
             ,
             nor
             any
             good
             reason
             but
             if
             that
             the
             one
             Congregation
             may
             so
             practise
             ,
             the
             other
             Congregation
             may
             do
             the
             like
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             grounds
             (
             at
             least
             some
             of
             them
             )
             which
             will
             warrant
             the
             one
             ,
             will
             also
             suffice
             to
             warrant
             the
             other
             .
             Neverthelesse
             when
             any
             rule
             of
             Christ
             shal
             be
             produced
             that
             doth
             restraine
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             of
             this
             entire
             power
             ,
             which
             is
             so
             freely
             and
             plainly
             granted
             to
             the
             Congregation
             that
             is
             alone
             ,
             
             I
             shall
             then
             grant
             that
             the
             former
             must
             have
             lesse
             liberty
             to
             exercise
             this
             power
             ,
             then
             is
             here
             granted
             to
             the
             latter
             .
             In
             the
             meane
             time
             ,
             that
             which
             here
             is
             yeelded
             to
             the
             one
             doth
             amongst
             other
             things
             induce
             me
             to
             thinke
             that
             the
             same
             ought
             to
             be
             granted
             to
             the
             other
             ,
             and
             so
             that
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             is
             in
             them
             both
             .
          
           
             A
             Congregation
             
               (
               viz.
            
             which
             is
             alone
             )
             is
             capable
             of
             entire
             Jurisdiction
             because
             it
             is
             a
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             How
             will
             it
             then
             be
             avoided
             but
             a
             Congregation
             which
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             or
             a
             Congregation
             which
             was
             alone
             and
             now
             hath
             neighbours
             added
             to
             it
             ,
             how
             will
             it
             be
             avoided
             I
             say
             ,
             but
             such
             a
             Congregation
             as
             this
             is
             also
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             ?
             For
             can
             it
             be
             denyed
             but
             such
             a
             Congregation
             is
             a
             Church
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             the
             other
             ?
             Sure
             if
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             Doctrine
             elsewhere
             delivered
             do
             stand
             good
             ,
             this
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             at
             all
             .
             For
             in
             his
             Page
             301
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               That
               is
               a
               Church
               ,
               and
               hath
               the
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               ,
               to
               which
               agree
               the
               essentiall
               notes
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               ,
               and
               Preaching
               of
               the
               word
               and
               administration
               of
               the
               Sacraments
               saith
               he
               are
               essentiall
               notes
               of
               a
               visible
               Church
               .
            
             Which
             if
             it
             bee
             so
             ,
             then
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             is
             a
             visible
             Church
             ,
             and
             hath
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             because
             Preaching
             of
             the
             word
             and
             administration
             of
             the
             Sacraments
             are
             cleerely
             found
             in
             such
             a
             Congregation
             .
             And
             if
             such
             a
             Congregation
             be
             a
             Church
             ,
             then
             by
             his
             own
             Doctrine
             in
             this
             place
             which
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             such
             a
             Congregation
             is
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             .
             For
             thus
             I
             argue
             from
             his
             own
             words
          
           
             Every
             Congregation
             which
             is
             a
             Church
             is
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             .
          
           
             But
             a
             Congregation
             which
             hath
             neighbours
             is
             a
             Church
             .
          
           
             Therefore
             a
             Congregation
             which
             hath
             neighbours
             is
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             .
          
           
             The
             conclusion
             is
             that
             which
             we
             stand
             for
             ,
             and
             it
             makes
             directly
             against
             our
             Brother
             ,
             and
             yet
             I
             see
             not
             how
             he
             can
             avoyd
             it
             ,
             because
             both
             the
             premises
             are
             his
             own
             .
             For
             the
             Proposition
             is
             plaine
             from
             the
             words
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             
               v●z
               .
               A
               Congregation
               is
               capable
               of
               entire
               Jurisdiction
               because
               it
               is
               a
               Church
               .
            
             Now
             if
             this
             be
             the
             reason
             why
             it
             is
             capable
             thereof
             ,
             then
             looke
             to
             what
             Congregation
             this
             reason
             doth
             agree
             ,
             every
             such
             Congregation
             must
             be
             so
             capable
             .
             For
             our
             Author
             well
             knoweth
             that
             
               à
               quatenus
               ad
               omnia
               consequentia
            
             .
             And
             for
             the
             Assumption
             ,
             the
             same
             is
             confirmed
             by
             his
             words
             ,
             Page
             302
             ,
             
               Where
               he
               makes
               that
               to
               be
               a
               Church
               ,
               and
               to
               have
               the
               essence
               of
               a
               Church
               ,
               to
               which
               the
               Preaching
               of
               the
               word
               ,
               and
               administration
               of
               the
               Sacraments
               do
               agree
               .
            
             And
             these
             agreeing
             to
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             it
             followeth
             that
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             is
             a
             Church
             .
             Vnlesse
             hee
             will
             deny
             to
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             power
             of
             Preaching
             the
             word
             and
             administring
             the
             Sacraments
             (
             which
             I
             am
             perswaded
             he
             will
             not
             deny
             at
             all
             )
             it
             will
             unavoidably
             follow
             from
             his
             own
             ground
             that
             such
             a
             Congregation
             is
             a
             visible
             Church
             .
             And
             if
             such
             a
             Congregation
             be
             a
             visible
             Church
             ,
             then
             by
             his
             own
             ground
             also
             ,
             such
             a
             Congregation
             must
             be
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             :
             which
             conclusion
             if
             it
             bee
             granted
             we
             desire
             no
             more
             ,
             for
             it
             is
             the
             thing
             that
             we
             hold
             .
          
           
             A
             woman
             in
             no
             case
             is
             capable
             of
             administring
             Baptisme
             or
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             ,
             except
             she
             were
             extraordinarily
             and
             immediately
             inspired
             to
             bee
             a
             
             Prophetesse
             ,
             but
             for
             the
             exercise
             of
             entire
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             by
             a
             Congregation
             in
             a
             remote
             Iland
             ,
             I
             hope
             it
             hath
             no
             such
             need
             of
             immediate
             inspiration
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Nor
             do
             wee
             thinke
             otherwise
             ;
             but
             (
             that
             we
             may
             keepe
             to
             the
             points
             and
             bring
             up
             the
             dispute
             to
             the
             thing
             in
             questio
             )
             if
             such
             a
             Congregation
             having
             no
             such
             inspiration
             may
             notwithstanding
             lawfully
             exercise
             intire
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             within
             themselves
             ,
             and
             that
             upon
             this
             reason
             ,
             because
             they
             now
             are
             alone
             ,
             which
             if
             they
             had
             neighbours
             were
             not
             lawfull
             for
             them
             to
             do
             ,
             then
             let
             it
             be
             well
             considered
             ,
             whether
             by
             the
             like
             reason
             in
             the
             like
             extraordinary
             case
             ,
             Baptisme
             and
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             may
             not
             be
             administred
             the
             one
             of
             them
             by
             a
             woman
             ,
             and
             both
             of
             them
             by
             such
             as
             are
             no
             Ministers
             .
             For
             as
             in
             one
             case
             the
             plea
             ,
             to
             make
             it
             lawfull
             is
             this
             ,
             because
             such
             a
             Congregation
             hath
             no
             neighbours
             ,
             so
             in
             the
             other
             the
             plea
             is
             because
             the
             Congregation
             hath
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             nor
             perhaps
             there
             are
             no
             men
             at
             hand
             .
             And
             if
             the
             one
             which
             at
             other
             times
             were
             unlawfull
             ,
             yet
             in
             such
             an
             extraordinary
             exigence
             of
             Gods
             Providence
             may
             be
             lawfully
             done
             ,
             though
             there
             be
             no
             immediate
             inspiration
             to
             warrant
             the
             same
             ,
             why
             doth
             there
             need
             such
             immediate
             inspiration
             to
             warrant
             the
             other
             ,
             the
             extraordinary
             exigence
             of
             Gods
             Providence
             being
             alike
             in
             both
             .
             I
             desire
             I
             may
             not
             be
             mistaken
             in
             this
             passage
             ,
             for
             I
             doe
             not
             affirme
             (
             nor
             ever
             did
             )
             that
             the
             dispensation
             of
             Discipline
             and
             of
             Sacraments
             in
             the
             cases
             mentioned
             are
             both
             alike
             unlawfull
             ,
             or
             else
             both
             alike
             lawfull
             .
             The
             Answer
             will
             not
             witnesse
             that
             I
             have
             so
             affirmed
             ,
             neither
             yet
             this
             present
             discourse
             t●
             much
             lesse
             do
             I
             hold
             that
             Sacraments
             may
             be
             dispensed
             by
             women
             or
             by
             men
             that
             are
             not
             Ministers
             .
             All
             that
             I
             have
             said
             in
             this
             matter
             is
             thus
             much
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             good
             to
             take
             heed
             how
             farre
             we
             yeeld
             it
             lawfull
             in
             such
             extraordinary
             cases
             ,
             as
             want
             of
             neighbours
             ,
             to
             transgresse
             and
             violate
             ordinary
             rules
             ,
             least
             some
             body
             do
             thence
             inferre
             that
             Sacraments
             may
             be
             dispensed
             by
             women
             or
             men
             that
             are
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             in
             case
             that
             Ministers
             or
             men
             be
             wanting
             .
             This
             I
             have
             said
             indeed
             ,
             as
             being
             tender
             and
             afraid
             to
             open
             a
             dore
             too
             far
             for
             liberty
             of
             transgressing
             ordinary
             rules
             ,
             and
             conceiving
             that
             keeping
             close
             to
             those
             rules
             is
             the
             safest
             way
             .
             If
             any
             man
             be
             more
             bold
             and
             dare
             open
             the
             dore
             further
             then
             I
             dare
             adventure
             to
             do
             ,
             and
             thinke
             he
             can
             easily
             shut
             the
             same
             againe
             ,
             to
             stop
             the
             inconveniencies
             and
             ill
             consequents
             which
             I
             feare
             may
             thence
             ensue
             .
             I
             shall
             leave
             him
             to
             his
             discretion
             ,
             and
             the
             guidance
             of
             God
             therein
             ,
             onely
             craving
             thus
             much
             for
             my selfe
             that
             no
             more
             may
             be
             imputed
             to
             me
             ,
             nor
             reported
             of
             me
             in
             this
             or
             other
             matters
             ,
             then
             indeed
             I
             have
             affirmed
             or
             expressed
             .
          
           
             
               Concerning
               his
               second
               reason
               of
               the
               greater
               necessity
               of
               Discipline
               then
               of
               Sacraments
               ,
               his
               words
               are
               these
               .
            
             There
             is
             no
             such
             morall
             necessity
             of
             Sacraments
             as
             there
             is
             of
             the
             Ministery
             of
             the
             word
             and
             consequently
             of
             the
             use
             of
             the
             Keyes
             ,
             where
             a
             Scandalous
             person
             may
             infect
             the
             Lords
             flock
             :
             for
             where
             vision
             ceaseth
             the
             people
             perish
             .
             But
             it
             is
             never
             said
             where
             Baptisme
             ceaseth
             the
             people
             perish
             ,
             Pag.
             455.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             How
             shall
             we
             be
             sure
             that
             by
             vision
             ,
             Prov.
             26.
             18.
             
             Is
             meant
             Discipline
             ?
             Yea
             Discipline
             not
             in
             a
             large
             sense
             as
             comprehending
             generally
             all
             order
             and
             behaviour
             concerning
             a
             Church
             and
             outward
             duties
             therein
             ,
             but
             Discipline
             strictly
             taken
             for
             administration
             of
             censures
             (
             for
             of
             this
             is
             one
             question
             )
             how
             I
             say
             shall
             wee
             be
             sure
             that
             by
             vision
             is
             meant
             this
             Discipline
             ?
             The
             usuall
             Expositers
             Tremeli●●
             and
             
               Junius
               ,
               
               〈…〉
            
             ,
             and
             others
             doe
             expound
             the
             same
             of
             the
             Preaching
             and
             dispensing
             of
             the
             word
             ,
             making
             no
             mention
             at
             all
             of
             Discipline
             as
             meant
             thereby
             .
             And
             the
             〈◊〉
             branch
             of
             the
             verse
             ,
             
               He
               ●hat
               keepeth
               the
               Law
               is
               blessed
               ,
            
             doth
             ●hew
             that
             by
             vision
             in
             the
             former
             branch
             is
             mean
             the
             Law
             ,
             or
             Doctrine
             or
             word
             of
             God.
             And
             if
             the
             Scripture
             do
             not
             s●y
             ,
             where
             Baptisme
             ceaseth
             the
             people
             perish
             ,
             yet
             neither
             doth
             it
             say
             ,
             where
             administrat●on
             of
             Censures
             ceaseth
             the
             people
             perish
             ;
             and
             therefore
             no
             necessity
             of
             censures
             above
             Sacraments
             can
             be
             concluded
             hence
             .
          
           
             Vncalled
             Ministers
             in
             case
             of
             necessity
             without
             Ordination
             or
             calling
             from
             a
             Presbytery
             may
             Preach
             and
             take
             on
             them
             the
             holy
             Ministery
             and
             exercise
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             ,
             because
             of
             the
             necessity
             of
             the
             Soules
             of
             a
             Congregation
             in
             a
             remote
             Iland
             requireth
             so
             .
          
           
             Answ
             If
             they
             may
             do
             these
             things
             without
             Ordination
             (
             as
             for
             my
             part
             I
             deny
             it
             not
             ,
             so
             that
             the
             election
             or
             consent
             of
             the
             Congregation
             be
             not
             wan●ing
             ,
             for
             that
             I
             suppose
             might
             be
             a
             good
             part
             of
             an
             outward
             calling
             )
             then
             I
             demand
             whether
             one
             Minister
             alone
             may
             not
             thus
             do
             ,
             I
             meane
             whether
             one
             alone
             may
             not
             in
             the
             case
             proposed
             take
             on
             him
             the
             holy
             Ministery
             and
             Preach
             the
             word
             as
             a
             Minister
             .
             If
             many
             may
             do
             it
             ,
             then
             I
             suppose
             there
             is
             no
             question
             but
             one
             may
             do
             it
             much
             rather
             .
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             I
             demand
             further
             whe●her
             such
             a
             single
             Minister
             may
             not
             also
             administer
             the
             Sacraments
             to
             such
             a
             Congregation
             :
             I
             suppose
             it
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             ,
             for
             if
             he
             lawfully
             take
             on
             him
             the
             Ministery
             and
             Preach
             as
             a
             Minister
             ,
             what
             should
             hinder
             ,
             but
             he
             may
             also
             Baptize
             ,
             and
             minister
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             ?
             And
             if
             hee
             may
             thus
             doe
             ,
             then
             I
             demand
             lastly
             ,
             whether
             this
             single
             Minister
             may
             also
             administer
             Discipline
             and
             censures
             in
             that
             Congregation
             .
             If
             he
             may
             ,
             then
             either
             the
             power
             of
             those
             censures
             must
             be
             in
             himselfe
             alone
             ,
             or
             in
             the
             Congregation
             also
             ,
             in
             himselfe
             alone
             it
             cannot
             be
             ,
             because
             censures
             must
             bee
             dispensed
             by
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             one
             man
             alone
             cannot
             bee
             a
             Church
             ,
             If
             it
             be
             in
             the
             Congregation
             also
             ,
             then
             here
             is
             a
             power
             of
             Excommunication
             or
             other
             censures
             even
             in
             the
             people
             which
             is
             against
             our
             Brothers
             judgement
             .
             If
             it
             be
             said
             that
             this
             single
             Minister
             as
             long
             as
             he
             wan●s
             other
             Ministers
             joyned
             with
             him
             may
             not
             administer
             censures
             or
             Discipline
             ,
             then
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             power
             of
             censures
             is
             not
             alwayes
             annexed
             to
             the
             Ministery
             as
             an
             inseparable
             adjunct
             thereof
             ,
             nor
             are
             Censures
             to
             be
             preferred
             before
             Sacraments
             as
             more
             necessary
             ,
             as
             our
             Brother
             would
             have
             it
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             here
             is
             a
             Ministery
             and
             the
             administring
             of
             Sacraments
             ,
             the
             necessity
             of
             the
             soules
             of
             the
             Congregation
             requiring
             so
             ,
             and
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             not
             any
             power
             of
             censures
             at
             all
             .
             Our
             Brother
             therefore
             may
             make
             his
             choyce
             ,
             whether
             hee
             will
             grant
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Keyes
             of
             Discipline
             to
             bee
             in
             the
             people
             ,
             or
             whether
             he
             will
             say
             the
             necessity
             of
             the
             soules
             in
             a
             Congregation
             doth
             require
             Sacraments
             more
             then
             Discipline
             ;
             For
             though
             these
             be
             both
             against
             himselfe
             ,
             yet
             upon
             the
             ground
             which
             himselfe
             doth
             here
             lay
             ,
             the
             one
             of
             the
             two
             is
             unavoidable
             .
          
           
             But
             I
             hope
             no
             necessity
             in
             any
             of
             the
             most
             extraordinary
             case
             requireth
             that
             a
             Midwife
             may
             Baptize
             ,
             or
             that
             a
             private
             man
             remaining
             a
             private
             man
             may
             celebrate
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             to
             the
             Church
             ,
             without
             any
             calling
             from
             the
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Concerning
             the
             Midwife
             I
             thinke
             the
             same
             that
             he
             doth
             .
             And
             concerning
             the
             private
             man
             ,
             I
             also
             therein
             ●●curre
             that
             without
             calling
             from
             the
             Church
             hee
             may
             not
             performe
             what
             here
             is
             spoken
             of
             .
             But
             here
             I
             would
             make
             this
             Quare
             whether
             
             〈◊〉
             man
             that
             never
             was
             a
             Minister
             may
             not
             as
             well
             in
             an
             extraordinary
             case
             performe
             〈◊〉
             act
             of
             administring
             of
             Baptisme
             or
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             ,
             without
             any
             calling
             from
             the
             〈◊〉
             bytery
             or
             the
             Church
             unto
             whom
             the
             office
             of
             Ministery
             ,
             as
             take
             on
             him
             without
             any
             such
             calling
             the
             whole
             Ministery
             ,
             and
             so
             Preach
             and
             exercise
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             as
             a
             Minister
             For
             as
             for
             the
             one
             of
             these
             ,
             our
             Brother
             expresly
             grants
             a
             man
             m●y
             lawfully
             take
             it
             on
             him
             without
             any
             such
             calling
             ,
             the
             necessity
             of
             the
             Soules
             of
             a
             Congregation
             in
             an
             Iland
             requiring
             so
             ;
             and
             if
             this
             necessity
             will
             warrant
             the
             one
             which
             is
             the
             whole
             and
             so
             the
             greater
             ,
             why
             will
             it
             not
             warrant
             the
             other
             which
             is
             but
             one
             act
             and
             so
             the
             lesser
             ?
             One
             would
             thinke
             one
             act
             of
             dispensing
             Baptisme
             or
             the
             Supper
             were
             a
             lesser
             matter
             then
             the
             whole
             Ministery
             ,
             and
             all
             the
             actions
             thereof
             .
             And
             marvell
             it
             is
             ,
             that
             the
             necessity
             of
             the
             Soules
             of
             a
             Congregation
             should
             warrant
             this
             which
             is
             the
             greater
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             same
             necessity
             should
             not
             be
             sufficient
             warrant
             for
             the
             lesser
             ,
             a
             mans
             calling
             being
             otherwise
             alike
             unto
             both
             ,
             that
             is
             ,
             having
             an
             outward
             calling
             to
             neither
             Himself
             doth
             sometimes
             reason
             thus
             ,
             
               If
               wee
               give
               to
               beleevers
               that
               are
               not
               in
               office
               one
               pastorall
               act
               ,
               wee
               may
               with
               the
               like
               weight
               of
               reason
               give
               them
               all
               :
               Peaceable
               plea
               ,
               Page
            
             272.
             
             Now
             if
             this
             reasoning
             be
             good
             from
             one
             Act
             to
             all
             ,
             why
             is
             no
             this
             as
             good
             ,
             from
             all
             to
             any
             one
             or
             to
             some
             one
             ?
             And
             why
             may
             we
             not
             in
             like
             maner
             argue
             thus
             ,
             If
             persons
             uncalled
             may
             without
             Ordination
             or
             calling
             take
             on
             them
             the
             whole
             Ministery
             ,
             why
             may
             not
             persons
             uncalled
             without
             Ordination
             or
             calling
             take
             on
             them
             to
             Baptize
             or
             Minister
             the
             Supper
             ?
             Not
             that
             I
             thinke
             such
             a
             practise
             to
             be
             lawfull
             ,
             but
             only
             I
             intend
             to
             make
             quaere
             about
             the
             validity
             of
             our
             Brothers
             kind
             of
             arguing
             .
             Yea
             ,
             it
             is
             elsewhere
             his
             arguing
             ,
             that
             it
             persons
             not
             in
             office
             of
             Ministery
             may
             execute
             censures
             and
             Discipline
             ,
             they
             may
             then
             administer
             the
             Sacraments
             .
             
               For
               saith
               he
               ,
               What
               hinders
               by
               this
               reason
               but
               they
               may
               also
               without
               Ministers
               Prea●h
               and
               administer
               the
               Sacraments
               :
            
             Peaceable
             Plea
             ,
             
               Page
               196.
               
               Yea
               saith
               he
               ,
               I
               s●e
               not
               but
               with
               a
               like
               warrant
               private
               men
               may
               administer
               the
               Sacraments
               :
            
             Vbi
             Supra
             ,
             Page
             196.
             
             This
             we
             see
             is
             his
             arguing
             elsewhere
             :
             And
             yet
             in
             the
             place
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             he
             grants
             that
             persons
             uncalled
             may
             in
             case
             of
             necessity
             without
             Ordination
             or
             calling
             take
             on
             them
             the
             Ministery
             in
             generall
             ,
             and
             in
             particular
             may
             exerc●se
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             and
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             he
             sayes
             ,
             that
             no
             necessity
             will
             warrant
             a
             man
             to
             celebrate
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             without
             a
             calling
             from
             the
             Church
             .
             Which
             two
             sayings
             for
             ought
             I
             perceive
             do
             not
             agree
             .
             For
             in
             the
             one
             it
             is
             affirmed
             that
             if
             they
             may
             exercise
             Discipline
             and
             censures
             ,
             they
             may
             by
             the
             like
             reason
             administer
             Sacraments
             :
             and
             the
             other
             saith
             they
             may
             exercise
             Discipline
             and
             censures
             and
             yet
             may
             not
             administer
             Sacraments
             ;
             and
             yet
             both
             the
             sayings
             are
             expressed
             by
             the
             same
             Authors
             Pen.
             
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XI
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             flowing
             immediately
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             doe
             not
             agree
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             as
             well
             as
             to
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             none
             :
             And
             whether
             otherwise
             neighbouring
             Churches
             bee
             not
             a
             losse
             .
             And
             whether
             pretence
             of
             male-administration
             be
             a
             sufficient
             reason
             for
             neighbouring
             Churches
             to
             deprive
             a
             Congregation
             of
             its
             power
             .
          
           
             
               THe
               next
               place
               where
               I
               find
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               dealing
               with
               the
               Answer
               ,
               is
               in
               his
               Page
               455.
               
               Where
               he
               brings
               in
               these
               words
               under
               Mr.
            
             Tompsons
             
               name
               and
               mine
            
             ,
             viz.
             If
             the
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             flow
             immediately
             and
             necessarily
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             a
             Congregation
             be
             essentially
             a
             Church
             ,
             then
             this
             power
             agreeth
             to
             all
             Churches
             whether
             consociated
             ,
             or
             not
             consociated
             ,
             and
             without
             respect
             of
             what
             neighbours
             they
             have
             ,
             whether
             many
             or
             few
             ,
             whether
             any
             or
             none
             .
             Second
             ,
             a
             Congregation
             it selfe
             alone
             cannot
             have
             sole
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             then
             be
             deprived
             of
             it
             ,
             when
             God
             sendeth
             neighbours
             ,
             for
             then
             neighbouring
             Churches
             which
             are
             given
             for
             help
             should
             be
             given
             for
             losse
             ,
             the
             contrary
             whereof
             Ames
             saith
             no.
             Doe
             Synods
             saith
             he
             ,
             Constitute
             a
             new
             forme
             of
             a
             Chur●h
             .
          
           
             Thus
             farre
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             who
             in
             his
             Margent
             alledgeth
             Mr.
             Tompson
             and
             me
             ,
             16.
             
             Pag.
             4
             ,
             5.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             In
             one
             of
             these
             Pages
             of
             the
             Answer
             ,
             viz.
             P.
             5.
             there
             is
             nothing
             at
             all
             to
             be
             found
             that
             looks
             toward
             such
             a
             purpose
             as
             our
             Brother
             hath
             in
             hand
             ,
             and
             therefore
             this
             Page
             should
             not
             have
             been
             here
             alledged
             .
             The
             words
             of
             Dr.
             Ames
             are
             more
             imperfectly
             cited
             by
             our
             Brother
             ,
             then
             they
             were
             alledged
             in
             the
             Answer
             ,
             For
             the
             Answer
             alledgeth
             them
             thus
             out
             of
             
               Medull
               .
               Theol.
            
             Lib.
             1.
             
             Chapter
             3.
             
             Sect
             27.
             
             
               That
               the
               combination
               of
               Churches
               into
               Classes
               ,
               and
               Synods
               doth
               neither
               constitute
               a
               new
               forme
               of
               a
               Church
               ,
               nor
               ought
               by
               any
               meanes
               to
               take
               away
               or
               impayer
               that
               liberty
               and
               power
               which
               Christ
               hath
               given
               to
               his
               Churches
               ,
               sith
               it
               serveth
               only
               for
               the
               directing
               and
               furthering
               of
               the
               same
               .
            
             Wher●as
             our
             Brother
             expresseth
             only
             those
             first
             words
             that
             Synods
             do
             not
             constitute
             a
             new
             forme
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             but
             all
             the
             rest
             wherein
             the
             chiefe
             strength
             of
             Dr.
             Ames
             his
             testimony
             doth
             lye
             ,
             them
             he
             doth
             wholly
             omit
             and
             leave
             out
             .
             He
             also
             leaves
             out
             the
             assent
             which
             is
             given
             by
             Mr.
             Paget
             ,
             to
             this
             testimony
             of
             Dr.
             Ames
             ,
             which
             assent
             as
             it
             is
             expressed
             in
             his
             defence
             P.
             107.
             in
             these
             words
             ,
             
               This
               we
               do
               willingly
               grant
            
             ,
             
             is
             also
             in
             the
             ●ame
             words
             alledged
             by
             the
             Answer
             in
             P.
             4.
             
             But
             this
             is
             wholly
             passed
             over
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             in
             silence
             .
             Now
             two
             such
             men
             as
             these
             being
             alledged
             in
             the
             Answer
             ,
             as
             plainly
             affirming
             that
             the
             combination
             of
             Churches
             into
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             must
             neither
             tollere
             nor
             minuere
             ,
             take
             away
             not
             impaire
             or
             diminish
             the
             liberty
             or
             power
             of
             Churches
             ,
             but
             only
             serve
             for
             the
             directing
             and
             furthering
             of
             the
             same
             ,
             And
             the
             one
             of
             them
             being
             the
             chiefe
             Patron
             of
             the
             power
             of
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             ,
             It
             is
             some
             marvell
             to
             me
             that
             no
             word
             of
             Answer
             is
             vouchsafed
             to
             them
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             but
             that
             their
             words
             are
             thus
             passed
             by
             with
             silence
             ,
             and
             the
             name
             of
             one
             of
             them
             not
             so
             much
             as
             mentioned
             .
             How
             ever
             this
             is
             cleere
             ,
             that
             he
             that
             gainsayes
             the
             Answer
             in
             this
             passage
             ,
             hath
             not
             only
             the
             Answer
             ,
             but
             also
             the
             Reverend
             Author
             here
             mentioned
             to
             be
             against
             him
             .
             But
             let
             us
             come
             to
             consider
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             Answer
             which
             he
             subjoyneth
             in
             these
             words
             ,
             viz.
             
          
           
             Power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             floweth
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Congregation
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             ergo
             a
             totall
             and
             compleat
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             floweth
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             or
             Congregation
             consociated
             ,
             it
             followeth
             no
             wayes
             .
          
           
             Answ
             I
             desire
             the
             reason
             may
             be
             laid
             down
             according
             to
             our
             true
             meaning
             therein
             ,
             and
             in
             its
             full
             strength
             ;
             and
             then
             the
             former
             part
             thereof
             must
             not
             only
             speak
             of
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             flowing
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             that
             want
             neighbours
             ,
             but
             of
             entire
             power
             ,
             for
             thereof
             is
             the
             question
             ;
             and
             in
             the
             latter
             part
             the
             termes
             must
             no
             :
             be
             a
             Church
             consociated
             but
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ;
             Now
             if
             entire
             power
             and
             Iurisdiction
             do
             flow
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             therefore
             this
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             being
             found
             in
             a
             Congregation
             that
             wants
             neighbours
             ,
             this
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             mu●t
             thereupon
             be
             granted
             to
             such
             a
             Congregation
             ;
             I
             then
             demand
             why
             the
             like
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             must
             not
             be
             granted
             as
             well
             to
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             sith
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             is
             found
             in
             this
             Congregation
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             in
             the
             other
             .
             For
             ought
             I
             see
             either
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             must
             be
             denyed
             to
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             or
             else
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             must
             be
             granted
             to
             such
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             Risibility
             and
             power
             of
             reason
             flowing
             immediately
             and
             necessarily
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             man
             ,
             and
             power
             to
             defend
             it selfe
             and
             purge
             out
             excrements
             flowing
             in
             like
             sort
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             humane
             body
             ,
             and
             power
             to
             governe
             it self
             with
             family
             government
             flowing
             in
             like
             sort
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             family
             ;
             therefore
             we
             must
             not
             grant
             these
             powers
             to
             be
             entire
             in
             such
             a
             man
             ,
             such
             a
             body
             ,
             or
             such
             a
             family
             as
             is
             alone
             ,
             and
             deny
             the
             same
             to
             one
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             but
             must
             grant
             them
             alike
             unto
             all
             ,
             because
             this
             power
             flowes
             from
             their
             very
             essence
             ,
             which
             is
             as
             truly
             found
             in
             such
             as
             have
             neighbours
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             in
             those
             that
             are
             alone
             .
             And
             the
             like
             may
             be
             said
             in
             other
             cases
             .
             And
             why
             it
             should
             be
             otherwise
             in
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             ,
             that
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Iurisdiction
             flowing
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             such
             a
             Church
             should
             therefore
             be
             entire
             in
             such
             a
             Congregation
             as
             is
             alone
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             and
             yet
             not
             entire
             in
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             ,
             though
             this
             Congregation
             hath
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             as
             well
             as
             the
             other
             ,
             why
             these
             Congregations
             I
             say
             should
             thus
             greatly
             differ
             in
             their
             power
             ,
             and
             yet
             be
             alike
             in
             their
             essence
             from
             whence
             their
             power
             doth
             flow
             ,
             for
             my
             part
             I
             yet
             do
             not
             understand
             the
             reason
             .
          
           
             Nor
             doth
             that
             satisfy
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             here
             alledgeth
             ,
             
               That
               one
               Pastor
               in
               a
               Congregation
               hath
               as
               a
               Pastor
               power
               to
               rebuke
               sin
               and
               to
               administer
               the
               Sacraments
               ,
               and
               yet
               when
               three
               Pastors
               are
               added
               to
               help
               him
               he
               hath
            
             
             
             
             
             
             
               not
               the
               sole
               power
               of
               rebuking
               sin
               ,
               and
               the
               sole
               and
               entire
               power
               to
               administer
               the
               Sacraments
               ,
               but
               these
               three
               Pastors
               have
               power
               with
               him
               :
            
             This
             I
             conceive
             doth
             not
             help
             the
             matter
             at
             all
             :
             For
             though
             it
             be
             true
             that
             these
             three
             Pastors
             being
             added
             to
             the
             first
             have
             each
             of
             them
             the
             like
             power
             as
             the
             first
             had
             ,
             yet
             the
             power
             of
             the
             first
             for
             the
             performance
             of
             these
             things
             mentioned
             ,
             is
             as
             comple●t
             in
             him
             notwithstanding
             this
             addition
             ,
             as
             it
             was
             before
             ,
             and
             not
             any
             whit
             abated
             nor
             impayred
             thereby
             :
             And
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             matters
             of
             order
             flowing
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Pastor
             may
             bee
             sufficiently
             and
             compleatly
             performed
             by
             one
             Pastor
             singly
             ,
             which
             acts
             of
             Iurisdiction
             cannot
             .
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             own
             words
             in
             this
             case
             are
             these
             ,
             
               viz.
               A
               single
               Pastor
               may
               Ministerially
               give
               out
               Commandements
               in
               the
               authority
               of
               Christ
               ,
               but
               hee
               cannot
               himselfe
               censure
               or
               Excommunicate
               the
               contraveners
               of
               those
               Commandements
               :
            
             Due
             Right
             ,
             
               Page
               387.
               
               And
               againe
               ,
               Page
               387
               ,
               388
               It
               is
               proper
               is
               acts
               of
               Iuris●iction
               Ecclesiasticall
               that
               they
               cannot
               be
               exercised
               by
               one
               alone
               ,
               but
               must
               be
               exercised
               by
               a
               society
               :
               but
               a
               Pastor
               as
               a
               Pastor
               himselfe
               alone
               without
               any
               collaterally
               joyned
               with
               him
               exerciseth
               his
               Pastorall
               acts
               of
               Preaching
               and
               administring
               the
               Sacraments
               .
            
             Now
             if
             a
             Pastor
             as
             a
             Pastor
             himself
             alone
             without
             any
             collatterally
             joyned
             with
             him
             ,
             may
             thus
             exercise
             his
             Pastorall
             acts
             ,
             then
             indeed
             the
             accesse
             or
             addition
             of
             other
             Pastors
             is
             not
             at
             all
             destructive
             of
             his
             Pastorall
             power
             ,
             but
             he
             still
             retaineth
             the
             same
             as
             compleat
             and
             perfect
             as
             before
             ,
             because
             hee
             doth
             these
             acts
             as
             a
             Pastor
             and
             remaineth
             a
             Pastor
             still
             .
             But
             how
             this
             example
             and
             instance
             can
             any
             thing
             further
             Mr.
             Ruth●rford
             his
             purpose
             ,
             I
             do
             not
             understand
             .
             For
             his
             intention
             is
             to
             make
             good
             that
             a
             Congregation
             may
             have
             entire
             power
             when
             it
             is
             alone
             ,
             a●d
             yet
             not
             so
             when
             other
             Congregations
             do
             arise
             ;
             and
             for
             the
             consuming
             of
             this
             hee
             brings
             this
             instance
             and
             example
             from
             a
             Pastor
             that
             hath
             a
             Pastorall
             power
             afore
             other
             Pastors
             are
             added
             ;
             who
             by
             the
             addition
             of
             others
             hath
             no
             lesse
             power
             then
             afore
             ;
             which
             example
             I
             conceive
             rather
             makes
             against
             him
             then
             for
             him
             .
             
               For
               saith
               he
               ,
               Page
               456.
               
               Their
               Pastorall
               power
               added
               to
               him
               is
               Cumulative
               and
               auxiliary
               ,
               but
               not
               privative
               or
               destructive
               of
               his
               Pastorall
               power
               ,
               and
               therefore
               that
               the
               first
               Pastor
               suffereth
               losse
               by
               the
               addition
               of
               these
               three
               to
               him
               ,
               who
               ,
               saith
               he
               ,
               will
               say
               this
               ?
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             I
             know
             none
             that
             will
             say
             it
             ;
             but
             if
             their
             power
             be
             Cumulative
             and
             auxiliary
             to
             his
             Pastorall
             power
             ,
             and
             no
             wayes
             privative
             or
             destructive
             thereof
             ,
             then
             what
             power
             he
             had
             afore
             they
             were
             added
             ,
             the
             same
             he
             hath
             still
             in
             as
             great
             measure
             as
             formerly
             ,
             and
             so
             his
             Pastorall
             acts
             are
             as
             perfect
             and
             valid
             as
             they
             were
             before
             .
             Now
             let
             the
             same
             bee
             granted
             to
             a
             Congregation
             that
             hath
             neighbour
             Congregations
             added
             ,
             and
             we
             have
             what
             we
             demand
             :
             And
             if
             this
             be
             not
             granted
             ,
             then
             though
             the
             power
             of
             those
             other
             Pastors
             be
             Cumulative
             and
             auxiliary
             to
             the
             other
             Pastor
             ,
             yet
             the
             power
             of
             those
             other
             Congregations
             seemes
             not
             so
             to
             the
             former
             Congregation
             ,
             but
             rather
             privative
             or
             destructive
             of
             its
             power
             ,
             and
             then
             how
             can
             this
             example
             confirme
             our
             Brothers
             purpose
             ,
             or
             how
             can
             it
             be
             avoided
             but
             the
             example
             which
             he
             produceth
             doth
             make
             against
             himselfe
             ?
             Sure
             if
             the
             power
             of
             these
             other
             Pastors
             bee
             not
             destructive
             to
             the
             former
             Pastors
             power
             ,
             but
             auxiliary
             thereto
             ,
             so
             that
             what
             power
             
             he
             had
             before
             ,
             the
             same
             he
             retayneth
             still
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             same
             measure
             ,
             then
             it
             must
             bee
             so
             likew●se
             in
             a
             Congregation
             when
             neighbour
             Congregations
             are
             added
             ,
             or
             else
             this
             example
             will
             not
             suit
             :
             But
             make
             the
             examples
             to
             agree
             and
             our
             cause
             is
             advantaged
             thereby
             .
          
           
             Our
             Brethren
             doe
             conceive
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             in
             its
             kind
             and
             essence
             to
             be
             Monarchicall
             ,
             so
             as
             if
             any
             power
             from
             consociated
             Congregations
             be
             added
             thereunto
             ,
             the
             Congregations
             power
             Monarchicall
             is
             diminished
             and
             the
             essence
             of
             it
             changed
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             power
             of
             Congregations
             we
             ●old
             to
             be
             Ministeriall
             ,
             as
             being
             delegated
             from
             Christ
             Iesus
             ,
             and
             to
             be
             exercised
             according
             to
             his
             appointment
             ;
             and
             in
             him
             alone
             and
             in
             no
             other
             do
             we
             place
             this
             Monarchicall
             power
             ;
             according
             to
             what
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             witnesseth
             ,
             that
             there
             are
             differences
             of
             administrations
             but
             the
             same
             Lord
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             12.
             5.
             
             And
             though
             our
             Brother
             is
             pleased
             to
             put
             this
             upon
             us
             ,
             that
             we
             conceive
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             to
             bee
             Monarchicall
             ,
             yet
             in
             truth
             the
             same
             is
             farre
             from
             us
             :
             Nor
             do
             I
             thinke
             that
             so
             much
             as
             one
             of
             us
             can
             be
             named
             ,
             that
             at
             any
             time
             hath
             so
             spoken
             :
             Nor
             doth
             such
             a
             thing
             follow
             from
             any
             thing
             delivered
             by
             us
             concerning
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             .
             For
             as
             for
             that
             which
             here
             he
             intimateth
             and
             elsewhere
             expresseth
             more
             plainly
             ,
             so
             that
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             Congregations
             is
             closely
             made
             void
             or
             destroyed
             by
             that
             power
             which
             some
             ascribe
             unto
             Classes
             ,
             if
             this
             be
             holden
             by
             us
             ,
             doth
             it
             thence
             follow
             that
             we
             hold
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             to
             be
             Monarchical●●
             It
             followes
             not
             at
             all
             .
             For
             then
             by
             the
             like
             reason
             I
             could
             prove
             that
             himselfe
             d●th
             hold
             a
             power
             Monarchicall
             in
             the
             universall
             or
             Provinciall
             Churches
             :
             For
             he
             expresly
             affirmeth
             ,
             Page
             337.
             
             
               That
               the
               Popes
               power
               destroyeth
               the
               power
               of
               the
               Church
               universall
               ,
               and
               the
               Prelates
               power
               destroyeth
               the
               power
               of
               the
               Church
               whereof
               hee
               is
               pretended
               Pastor
               .
            
             And
             yet
             I
             hope
             he
             doth
             not
             hold
             a
             Monarchicall
             power
             in
             the
             one
             Chu●ch
             nor
             in
             the
             other
             ,
             nor
             in
             any
             Church
             or
             Churches
             but
             in
             Christ
             alone
             ;
             nor
             can
             the
             same
             bee
             truly
             concluded
             upon
             that
             which
             hee
             affirmeth
             of
             destroying
             the
             power
             of
             Churches
             by
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Pope
             and
             Prelate
             .
             And
             if
             not
             ,
             how
             then
             can
             any
             man
             conclude
             against
             us
             that
             we
             hold
             a
             Monarchicall
             power
             in
             Congregations
             ,
             though
             wee
             should
             hold
             that
             the
             power
             of
             Congregations
             is
             destroyed
             or
             diminished
             by
             that
             power
             which
             some
             would
             give
             unto
             Classes●
             If
             our
             pr●mises
             will
             warrant
             him
             to
             fasten
             such
             a
             Tenent
             upon
             us
             ,
             his
             own
             will
             give
             a
             warrant
             for
             the
             like
             against
             himselfe
             .
             And
             if
             the
             ground
             be
             insufficient
             to
             beare
             such
             a
             conclusion
             against
             him
             ,
             as
             I
             confesse
             it
             is
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             sufficient
             ground
             why
             the
             same
             should
             be
             imputed
             unto
             us
             .
          
           
             Compleat
             and
             en●ire
             power
             to
             rule
             both
             the
             Congrega●ion
             and
             members
             of
             consociated
             Churches
             in
             so
             farre
             as
             they
             do
             keep
             communion
             with
             that
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             may
             either
             edifie
             or
             Scandalize
             them
             ,
             floweth
             not
             immeaiately
             and
             ●ecessarily
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             every
             Congregation
             even
             in
             remote
             Ilands
             not
             consociated
             with
             others
             ,
             that
             we
             never
             said
             .
          
           
             Answer
             .
             Indeed
             it
             were
             an
             absurd
             and
             grosse
             saying
             for
             any
             man
             to
             say
             ,
             that
             a
             Congregation
             in
             a
             remote
             Iland
             not
             consociated
             with
             others
             should
             have
             power
             ,
             yea
             compleat
             and
             entire
             power
             to
             rule
             the
             Congregation
             and
             members
             of
             Churches
             consociated
             
             and
             that
             this
             should
             flow
             immediately
             and
             necessarily
             from
             the
             essence
             of
             such
             a
             Congregation
             .
             But
             there
             is
             no
             need
             that
             our
             Brother
             should
             cleere
             himselfe
             from
             this
             saying
             ,
             for
             I
             know
             none
             that
             imputes
             it
             to
             him
             .
             Neverthelesse
             ,
             the
             saying
             here
             ●●joyned
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             ,
             for
             they
             are
             his
             own
             verb●ti●●
             .
          
           
             First
             ,
             the
             ordinary
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             because
             of
             neerest
             vicinity
             and
             contiguity
             of
             members
             is
             given
             by
             Iesus
             Christ
             to
             one
             Congregation
             in
             an
             Isle
             ,
             because
             that
             Church
             is
             a
             Church
             properly
             so
             called
             :
             It
             is
             a
             little
             City
             ,
             and
             a
             little
             Kingdome
             of
             Iesus
             Christ
             ,
             having
             within
             it selfe
             power
             of
             the
             ●ord
             and
             Sacraments
             and
             that
             is
             a
             Church
             and
             hath
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             to
             which
             agree
             the
             essentiall
             notes
             of
             a
             Church
             :
             now
             Preaching
             of
             the
             word
             and
             administration
             of
             the
             Sacraments
             are
             essentiall
             notes
             of
             a
             visible
             Church
             :
             Page
             302.
             
          
           
             Second
             ,
             a
             Congregation
             is
             a
             Church
             wanting
             nothing
             of
             the
             being
             and
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             Page
             302.
             
          
           
             Third
             ,
             where
             consociation
             is
             not
             ,
             Ordination
             and
             Excommunication
             may
             be
             done
             by
             one
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             Page
             338.
             
          
           
             Fourth
             ,
             that
             in
             such
             cases
             
               (
               viz.
            
             When
             a
             Church
             is
             in
             an
             Iland
             it selfe
             alone
             )
             they
             have
             the
             word
             Preached
             and
             entire
             power
             of
             Discipline
             whole
             and
             entire
             within
             themselves
             to
             Excommunicate
             Scandalous
             persons
             ,
             is
             not
             extraordinary
             ,
             Page
             454.
             
          
           
             Fift
             ,
             it
             floweth
             co●naturally
             from
             a
             Church
             to
             which
             agreeth
             the
             essence
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             to
             exercise
             Iurisdiction
             over
             all
             its
             owne
             members
             ,
             ibid.
             
          
           
             Sixt
             ,
             neither
             doth
             a
             Congregation
             transgresse
             any
             rules
             of
             Christ
             at
             all
             ,
             when
             it
             exerciseth
             entire
             Power
             of
             censures
             within
             it selfe
             ,
             whereas
             there
             be
             no
             consociated
             Churches
             to
             share
             with
             it
             in
             that
             power
             ,
             ibid.
             
          
           
             Seaventh
             ,
             a
             Congregation
             is
             capable
             of
             entire
             Iurisdiction
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             a
             Church
             ,
             Ibid.
             
          
           
             Such
             sayings
             as
             these
             himselfe
             hath
             delivered
             in
             the
             pages
             and
             places
             here
             cited
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             words
             and
             termes
             here
             expressed
             ;
             and
             therefore
             from
             these
             he
             cannot
             cleere
             himselfe
             And
             if
             from
             these
             the
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             a
             Church
             that
             hath
             neighbours
             may
             justly
             be
             deduced
             ,
             as
             I
             conceive
             it
             may
             ,
             and
             have
             above
             manifested
             ,
             it
             will
             then
             but
             little
             availe
             him
             to
             wash
             his
             hands
             from
             the
             stayne
             of
             that
             other
             absurd
             saying
             afore
             mentioned
             ,
             which
             no
             man
             that
             I
             know
             do
             charge
             him
             withall
             .
             For
             as
             long
             as
             these
             other
             sayings
             do
             stand
             unrecalled
             ,
             so
             long
             wee
             have
             cleere
             grounds
             from
             himselfe
             and
             his
             own
             words
             ,
             for
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             every
             Congregationall
             Church
             ,
             and
             so
             for
             the
             weakening
             of
             his
             cause
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             strengthening
             of
             our
             own
             .
          
           
             A
             power
             to
             governe
             well
             and
             according
             to
             the
             rule
             of
             the
             Word
             added
             to
             an
             other
             power
             to
             governe
             well
             and
             according
             to
             the
             Word
             ,
             is
             an
             auxiliary
             
             power
             and
             no
             way
             destructive
             to
             that
             power
             to
             which
             it
             is
             added
             .
             Indeed
             a
             power
             to
             governe
             well
             added
             to
             a
             power
             of
             male-administration
             in
             a
             Congregation
             is
             destructive
             of
             that
             power
             ,
             and
             reason
             it
             should
             bee
             so
             ,
             because
             Christ
             never
             gave
             any
             such
             power
             of
             male-administration
             to
             a
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Here
             our
             Brother
             speakes
             of
             two
             cases
             ,
             first
             of
             a
             Power
             of
             governing
             well
             added
             to
             a
             power
             of
             governing
             well
             .
             Second
             ,
             of
             a
             power
             of
             governing
             well
             added
             to
             a
             power
             of
             governing
             ill
             ;
             but
             besides
             these
             ,
             there
             is
             a
             third
             case
             which
             had
             need
             to
             bee
             considered
             also
             ,
             viz.
             A
             power
             of
             governing
             ill
             added
             to
             a
             power
             of
             governing
             well
             ,
             which
             may
             be
             the
             case
             when
             the
             power
             of
             Classis
             is
             added
             to
             a
             Congregation
             ;
             for
             it
             is
             not
             impossible
             but
             the
             Congregation
             may
             be
             in
             the
             right
             and
             the
             Classis
             in
             the
             wrong
             .
             Now
             what
             shall
             be
             said
             or
             done
             in
             this
             ●ase
             ?
             Shall
             the
             Congregation
             now
             have
             the
             free
             exercise
             of
             its
             power
             ,
             or
             shall
             it
             not
             ?
             To
             say
             yea
             ,
             would
             satisfie
             the
             minds
             of
             many
             ,
             if
             the
             Congregation
             themselves
             may
             be
             judge
             that
             they
             are
             in
             the
             right
             ,
             or
             if
             it
             were
             determined
             who
             must
             judge
             thereof
             .
             And
             to
             say
             no
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             power
             must
             still
             be
             in
             this
             erring
             Classis
             ,
             were
             to
             subject
             righteousnesse
             to
             wickednesse
             ,
             and
             truth
             to
             falshood
             ,
             and
             I
             conceive
             our
             Brother
             will
             not
             maintain
             such
             power
             in
             a
             compound
             or
             Presbytery
             or
             Classis
             .
             For
             in
             Page
             335.
             speaking
             of
             this
             very
             case
             ,
             and
             the
             greater
             Presbytery
             is
             wrong
             in
             their
             voicing
             ,
             and
             the
             Elders
             of
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             are
             right
             ,
             and
             have
             the
             best
             in
             judging
             of
             a
             case
             before
             them
             ,
             he
             plainly
             affirmeth
             ,
             
               That
               the
               power
               which
               in
               this
               case
               the
               Presbytery
               exerciseth
               is
               not
               of
               Christ
               ,
               and
               that
            
             de
             jure
             
               the
               power
               of
               the
               greater
               Presbytery
               in
               this
               case
               ought
               to
               be
               swallowed
               up
               of
               the
               voices
               of
               the
               Elders
               of
               a
               Congregation
               ,
               though
               they
               be
               fewer
               in
               number
               .
            
             Now
             if
             this
             be
             so
             ,
             then
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             is
             still
             as
             uncertain
             as
             before
             ,
             and
             still
             wee
             are
             to
             seeke
             where
             the
             power
             of
             censures
             or
             Iurisdiction
             doth
             finally
             reside
             .
             For
             in
             the
             one
             place
             our
             Brother
             tels
             us
             ,
             Christ
             never
             gave
             power
             of
             male-administration
             to
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             other
             he
             tels
             us
             the
             like
             of
             a
             Classis
             or
             great
             Presbytery
             ,
             and
             that
             Christ
             hath
             given
             no
             power
             to
             any
             Church
             to
             erre
             .
             By
             which
             sayings
             we
             are
             left
             at
             great
             uncertainty
             :
             for
             still
             the
             question
             will
             be
             whether
             the
             Congregation
             doth
             erre
             or
             no
             ,
             and
             so
             whether
             the
             Classis
             do
             erre
             or
             no
             ,
             and
             unlesse
             it
             be
             determined
             who
             must
             judge
             of
             this
             ,
             we
             are
             still
             but
             where
             wee
             were
             ,
             and
             no
             neerer
             an
             issue
             then
             before
             .
          
           
             This
             indeed
             is
             most
             true
             and
             must
             be
             so
             acknowledged
             ,
             that
             though
             the
             Lord
             Almighty
             have
             given
             a
             power
             unto
             Societies
             ,
             whether
             they
             bee
             families
             ,
             Common-wealths
             ,
             or
             Churches
             ,
             and
             have
             made
             sundry
             of
             them
             subordinate
             to
             none
             other
             the
             like
             Societies
             in
             the
             exercise
             of
             their
             power
             ,
             but
             to
             have
             supremacy
             of
             power
             within
             themselves
             ,
             yet
             he
             hath
             also
             given
             them
             just
             and
             holy
             rules
             in
             his
             word
             for
             the
             directing
             of
             them
             in
             the
             use
             of
             this
             Power
             ,
             from
             which
             rules
             it
             is
             not
             lawfull
             for
             them
             to
             swerve
             or
             go
             astray
             ;
             but
             if
             they
             do
             ,
             it
             will
             be
             sin
             unto
             them
             ,
             and
             he
             will
             surely
             require
             it
             of
             them
             :
             But
             now
             between
             these
             two
             the
             power
             it selfe
             and
             the
             abuse
             or
             right
             use
             of
             the
             power
             ,
             we
             must
             carefully
             distinguish
             ,
             for
             though
             abuse
             of
             their
             power
             bee
             not
             given
             of
             God
             ,
             from
             whom
             comes
             nothing
             but
             good
             ,
             yet
             the
             power
             it selfe
             being
             good
             is
             given
             of
             him
             ,
             and
             is
             so
             to
             be
             acknowledged
             .
             And
             though
             abuse
             of
             their
             power
             do
             justly
             deserve
             at
             his
             hands
             that
             they
             should
             be
             deprived
             of
             the
             power
             it selfe
             ,
             ye●
             
             God
             doth
             not
             alwayes
             forthwith
             deale
             with
             men
             according
             to
             their
             deserts
             herein
             ,
             but
             many
             times
             continues
             still
             to
             them
             their
             power
             ,
             though
             they
             have
             abused
             the
             same
             ,
             much
             lesse
             doth
             he
             allow
             others
             to
             deprive
             them
             of
             this
             power
             because
             of
             every
             abuse
             thero●
             :
             witnesse
             among
             others
             the
             examples
             of
             the
             Pagan
             Princes
             in
             the
             Apostles
             times
             ,
             who
             through
             their
             ignorance
             ,
             infidelity
             ,
             pride
             and
             other
             sins
             ,
             could
             not
             but
             in
             great
             measure
             abuse
             their
             authority
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             commands
             the
             Christians
             to
             be
             subject
             and
             obedient
             thereunto
             ,
             
               Rom.
               13.
               1
               ,
               2.
               &c.
               T
               it
            
             3.
             1.
             
             Not
             to
             obey
             them
             indeed
             ,
             in
             doing
             evill
             at
             their
             commands
             ,
             for
             in
             such
             case
             they
             must
             obey
             God
             rather
             then
             man
             ,
             as
             Act
             5.
             29.
             
             Yet
             still
             they
             must
             be
             subject
             to
             the
             powers
             either
             actively
             or
             pa●●ively
             ,
             even
             then
             when
             the
             powers
             were
             sinfully
             abused
             .
             Even
             so
             ,
             if
             a
             family
             shall
             abuse
             their
             power
             ,
             it
             doth
             not
             follow
             that
             other
             families
             ,
             may
             lawfully
             for
             this
             cause
             take
             away
             their
             power
             from
             them
             :
             Or
             if
             a
             Corporation
             shall
             so
             offend
             ,
             it
             will
             not
             follow
             that
             other
             Corporations
             may
             deprive
             them
             of
             their
             power
             .
             And
             if
             it
             be
             so
             in
             Commonwealths
             ,
             and
             families
             ,
             why
             may
             wee
             not
             say
             the
             same
             of
             Churches
             ?
             Or
             how
             will
             it
             follow
             ,
             if
             a
             Church
             shall
             abuse
             their
             power
             ,
             that
             other
             Churches
             in
             such
             eases
             may
             take
             away
             the
             power
             from
             such
             a
             Church
             ?
             For
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             this
             will
             not
             follow
             at
             all
             ,
             no
             more
             then
             the
             other
             .
             For
             though
             Christ
             have
             not
             given
             to
             any
             Church
             a
             power
             of
             male
             administration
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             speaks
             ,
             yet
             hath
             he
             given
             to
             every
             Church
             a
             power
             of
             administration
             ,
             which
             if
             they
             manage
             not
             aright
             but
             do
             abuse
             the
             same
             ,
             the
             Lord
             Iesus
             will
             be
             displeased
             with
             them
             for
             this
             abuse
             ,
             and
             other
             Churches
             may
             and
             ought
             to
             advise
             them
             and
             admonish
             them
             and
             testifie
             against
             them
             for
             the
             same
             ;
             but
             for
             the
             power
             it selfe
             ,
             as
             Christ
             himselfe
             doth
             not
             forthwith
             deprive
             them
             thereof
             ,
             so
             much
             lesse
             may
             other
             Churches
             take
             it
             from
             them
             ,
             for
             who
             gave
             them
             this
             authority
             ?
             
               Per
               in
               parem
               non
               habet
               potestatem
               :
            
             and
             Churches
             are
             all
             of
             equall
             authority
             ,
             and
             not
             one
             superior
             or
             inferior
             to
             another
             ,
             as
             therefore
             when
             children
             or
             servants
             in
             a
             family
             are
             not
             governed
             as
             they
             ought
             to
             be
             ,
             yet
             neighbour
             families
             have
             not
             warrant
             because
             of
             this
             male
             administration
             to
             invade
             the
             rights
             and
             destroy
             the
             power
             of
             such
             a
             family
             ,
             even
             so
             it
             is
             in
             this
             case
             of
             Churches
             ▪
             this
             male-administration
             in
             a
             Church
             is
             not
             forthwith
             a
             sufficient
             warrant
             for
             neighbour
             Churches
             to
             invade
             the
             rights
             of
             such
             a
             Church
             ,
             and
             to
             take
             away
             its
             power
             from
             it
             .
             Especially
             if
             we
             do
             consider
             that
             this
             male-administration
             in
             a
             Congregation
             may
             possibly
             be
             but
             pretended
             and
             not
             reall
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             administration
             of
             the
             Classes
             may
             paradventure
             be
             really
             such
             ;
             in
             which
             case
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             saith
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Classis
             is
             not
             of
             Christ
             ,
             but
             their
             voices
             ought
             
               de
               jure
            
             to
             be
             swallowed
             up
             by
             the
             Congregation
             and
             the
             Elders
             thereof
             .
             This
             argument
             therefore
             from
             male-administration
             of
             the
             power
             of
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             which
             Mr
             Rutherford
             saith
             ,
             it
             is
             reason
             should
             be
             destroyed
             by
             another
             power
             added
             to
             it
             ,
             meaning
             the
             power
             of
             a
             Classis
             is
             of
             no
             sufficient
             force
             to
             take
             away
             the
             power
             of
             a
             Congregation
             at
             all
             ,
             not
             to
             establish
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Classis
             over
             the
             same
             ,
             being
             as
             justly
             applyable
             against
             the
             Classis
             it selfe
             :
             Therefore
             for
             ought
             that
             doth
             yet
             appeare
             ,
             supreame
             Ministeriall
             Church
             power
             which
             I
             conceive
             must
             needs
             be
             somewhere
             ,
             may
             as
             well
             be
             in
             the
             Congregation
             as
             in
             the
             Classis
             ,
             and
             can
             neither
             by
             this
             argument
             of
             male-administration
             nor
             by
             any
             other
             that
             we
             have
             yet
             seene
             ,
             bee
             placed
             in
             the
             Classis
             any
             more
             then
             in
             the
             Congregation
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             it
             be
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             be
             judge
             ;
             and
             whether
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             can
             safely
             say
             that
             none
             of
             them
             do
             so
             teach
             ,
             and
             whether
             this
             saying
             that
             parties
             may
             not
             be
             judges
             do
             make
             against
             entirenesse
             of
             power
             in
             a
             Congation
             ,
             any
             more
             then
             in
             a
             generall
             or
             Nationall
             Councell
             .
          
           
             
               THe
               next
               place
               where
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               deales
               with
               the
               Answer
               ,
               is
               in
               his
               P.
               456.
               
               Where
               alledging
               Mr.
            
             Tompson
             
               and
               me
               ,
               Page
               5.
               he
               hath
               these
               words
               as
               ours
               ,
            
             viz.
             If
             it
             be
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             be
             the
             sole
             Iudge
             ,
             which
             must
             be
             if
             the
             sole
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             be
             in
             the
             Congregation
             (
             as
             wee
             grant
             in
             an
             extraordinary
             case
             and
             the
             Congregation
             is
             in
             an
             Iland
             it selfe
             alone
             )
             and
             so
             it
             shall
             be
             lawfull
             for
             a
             single
             Congregation
             to
             do
             that
             which
             is
             against
             all
             equity
             ,
             and
             the
             very
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             it
             must
             then
             follow
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             not
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             that
             a
             Congregation
             though
             consociated
             with
             other
             Congregations
             have
             entire
             Jurisdiction
             within
             it selfe
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Our
             words
             in
             the
             Page
             alledged
             are
             more
             prospicuous
             and
             cleere
             ,
             then
             these
             which
             are
             here
             set
             down
             for
             ours
             :
             neither
             do
             wee
             make
             any
             mention
             of
             a
             Congregation
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             nor
             yet
             of
             a
             Congregation
             consociated
             with
             other
             Churches
             ,
             least
             of
             all
             do
             we
             say
             (
             or
             report
             others
             to
             say
             )
             that
             it
             is
             lawfull
             for
             a
             single
             Congregation
             to
             do
             that
             which
             is
             against
             all
             equity
             and
             the
             very
             light
             of
             Nature
             ;
             none
             of
             these
             things
             are
             ours
             .
             And
             therefore
             ,
             that
             our
             true
             meaning
             may
             plainely
             appeare
             as
             it
             is
             ,
             I
             will
             transcribe
             a
             few
             of
             our
             words
             ,
             which
             are
             these
             ,
             
               viz.
               Sure
               we
               cannot
               thinke
               that
               there
               can
               be
               such
               a
               case
               imagined
               ,
               wherein
               you
               would
               grant
               it
               lawfull
               for
               a
               single
               Congregation
               to
               do
               that
               which
               is
               against
               all
               equity
               and
               the
               very
               light
               of
               Nature
               ,
               and
               yet
               you
               grant
               that
               the
               case
               may
               be
               such
               that
               a
               single
               Congregation
               may
               have
               entirenesse
               of
               Jurisdiction
               within
               it selfe
               ;
               which
               seemes
               to
               us
               plainly
               to
               prove
               that
               for
               a
               Congregation
               to
               bee
               so
               independent
               as
               to
               be
               the
               finall
               Judge
               of
               offences
               within
               it selfe
               ,
               is
               not
               against
               all
               equity
               nor
               against
               the
               light
               of
               Nature
               ,
               as
               is
               intimated
               by
               you
               .
            
             These
             are
             our
             words
             ,
             much
             differing
             from
             those
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             sets
             down
             as
             ours
             ,
             which
             I
             thought
             meet
             to
             relate
             out
             of
             the
             Answer
             ,
             that
             our
             
             meaning
             might
             appeare
             as
             it
             is
             ,
             and
             no
             otherwise
             .
             And
             now
             let
             us
             heare
             what
             our
             Brother
             subjoyneth
             for
             answer
             .
          
           
             None
             of
             us
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             Do
             teach
             that
             it
             is
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             be
             the
             Iudge
             :
             it
             might
             fall
             out
             in
             a
             generall
             Councell
             lawfully
             convened
             from
             which
             their
             is
             no
             Provocation
             :
             Yea
             and
             in
             a
             Nationall
             Councell
             (
             for
             all
             Councels
             may
             erre
             )
             the
             adverse
             party
             may
             Judge
             ;
             as
             it
             was
             a
             lawfull
             Councell
             according
             to
             a
             Church
             constitution
             that
             condemned
             Christ
             of
             Blasphemy
             and
             they
             were
             also
             his
             enemies
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             may
             it
             not
             also
             fall
             out
             in
             a
             Provinc●all
             Synod
             ,
             and
             in
             a
             Classis
             or
             Presbtytery
             of
             many
             Churches
             ?
             I
             suppose
             it
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             ,
             but
             the
             Iudges
             in
             all
             these
             may
             be
             the
             adverse
             parties
             ;
             and
             so
             if
             the
             adverse
             party
             may
             not
             be
             Iudge
             ,
             then
             neither
             generall
             nor
             Nationall
             Councels
             ,
             nor
             Provinciall
             Synods
             ,
             nor
             Classes
             ,
             nor
             Presbyteries
             may
             be
             Iudges
             ;
             because
             there
             is
             none
             of
             these
             but
             possibly
             they
             may
             be
             parties
             .
             And
             so
             this
             argument
             ,
             parties
             may
             not
             be
             Iudges
             ,
             doth
             make
             no
             more
             against
             the
             Congregations
             power
             of
             judging
             ,
             then
             against
             all
             Ecclesiasticall
             Assemblies
             whatsoever
             .
             Vnlesse
             therefore
             men
             would
             overthrow
             the
             power
             of
             all
             Ecclesiasticall
             Iudicatories
             whatsoever
             without
             exception
             of
             any
             ,
             they
             can
             have
             no
             help
             from
             this
             Argument
             to
             overthrow
             the
             power
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             Congregations
             .
             Not
             to
             insist
             upon
             that
             which
             might
             also
             be
             truly
             alledged
             ,
             that
             the
             Objection
             hath
             the
             like
             force
             ,
             (
             if
             any
             at
             all
             )
             against
             civill
             Iudicatories
             .
          
           
             But
             is
             it
             so
             indeed
             as
             our
             Brother
             affirmeth
             ,
             that
             none
             of
             them
             do
             teach
             that
             it
             is
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             be
             the
             judge
             ?
             I
             thinke
             he
             should
             not
             thus
             have
             spoken
             ,
             for
             I
             am
             much
             mistaken
             if
             the
             contrary
             hereunto
             be
             not
             certainly
             true
             .
             For
             first
             of
             all
             ,
             I
             alledge
             the
             words
             of
             Reverend
             Mr
             ,
             Herle
             ,
             in
             his
             Book
             of
             Independency
             Page
             5.
             alledged
             in
             the
             Answer
             :
             Page
             6
             ,
             the
             very
             Pag.
             which
             here
             Mr
             Rutherford
             is
             dealing
             against
             .
             In
             which
             place
             of
             Mr.
             Herle
             there
             are
             these
             words
             ,
             
               viz.
               That
               there
               ought
               to
               be
               graduall
               Judicatories
               ,
               wherein
               the
               agrieved
               party
               may
               appeale
               from
               the
               lesser
               to
               the
               higher
               ,
               that
               against
               the
               very
               light
               of
               Nature
               the
               adverse
               party
               be
               not
               the
               sole
               Iudge
               and
               party
               too
               in
               the
               cause
               ,
               there
               can
               be
               no
               Ceremony
               or
               Type
               in
               this
               ,
            
             Next
             of
             all
             I
             alledge
             the
             words
             of
             the
             same
             Reverend
             Author
             in
             his
             Page
             10
             ▪
             (
             Which
             is
             also
             alledged
             in
             the
             forementioned
             place
             of
             the
             Answer
             )
             Where
             the
             words
             are
             these
             ,
             
               What
               if
               a
               Brother
               offend
               not
               a
               particular
               Brother
               ,
               but
               the
               whole
               Congregation
               ?
               What
               if
               ten
               Brethren
               offend
               the
               whole
               or
               part
               ?
               Shall
               we
               thinke
               the
               offence
               fals
               not
               within
               our
               Saviours
               remed
               or
               complaint
               or
               Appeale
               here
               ?
               That
               the
               offended
               party
               be
               not
               against
               all
               equity
               the
               sole
               and
               finall
               Judge
               of
               the
               offence
               .
            
             In
             which
             places
             wee
             see
             it
             is
             plaine
             ,
             yet
             this
             Reverend
             Author
             counts
             it
             against
             the
             very
             light
             of
             Nature
             ;
             that
             the
             adverse
             party
             should
             bee
             Iudge
             and
             party
             too
             in
             the
             cause
             ,
             and
             that
             it
             is
             against
             all
             equity
             that
             the
             party
             offended
             should
             bee
             sole
             and
             finall
             Iudge
             of
             the
             offence
             .
             And
             therefore
             it
             is
             marvellous
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             should
             say
             that
             none
             of
             them
             do
             so
             teach
             :
             Yea
             ,
             it
             is
             the
             more
             marvellous
             inasmuch
             as
             both
             these
             places
             of
             Mr.
             Herle
             are
             expresly
             mentioned
             in
             
             that
             very
             page
             of
             the
             Answer
             which
             here
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             is
             disputing
             against
             .
             And
             therefore
             it
             he
             had
             not
             remembred
             that
             himselfe
             had
             read
             the
             same
             in
             Mr
             Herle
             ,
             as
             like
             enough
             he
             had
             ,
             yet
             finding
             the
             same
             alledged
             by
             us
             in
             that
             Scripture
             of
             ou●s
             ,
             it
             is
             marvell
             hee
             would
             not
             turne
             to
             the
             places
             alledged
             to
             search
             and
             see
             whether
             the
             thing
             were
             so
             or
             no
             ,
             afore
             he
             had
             denyed
             the
             same
             .
             Whereas
             on
             the
             contrary
             ,
             whether
             he
             searched
             or
             searched
             not
             ,
             this
             we
             see
             that
             he
             roundly
             affirmes
             ,
             that
             none
             of
             them
             do
             so
             teach
             ;
             to
             which
             saying
             I
             know
             not
             how
             to
             assent
             ,
             our
             eyes
             having
             so
             plainly
             seene
             and
             read
             the
             direct
             contrary
             ,
          
           
             Yea
             and
             further
             ,
             it
             is
             yet
             more
             marvellous
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             should
             thus
             write
             ,
             considering
             not
             only
             what
             hath
             been
             already
             said
             ,
             but
             also
             what
             himselfe
             hath
             written
             elsewhere
             :
             I
             will
             mention
             a
             few
             of
             his
             own
             sayings
             ,
             and
             then
             himselfe
             shall
             be
             ●udge
             ,
             whether
             the
             thing
             we
             have
             now
             in
             hand
             was
             by
             him
             advise●ly
             and
             well
             spoken
             .
             In
             his
             
               Pe●ceable
               Plea
            
             ,
             Page
             218
             he
             hath
             these
             words
             ,
             
               When
               the
            
             Graecian
             
               Church
               offendeth
               the
            
             Hebrew
             
               Church
               ,
               the
            
             Hebrew
             
               Church
               cannot
               complaine
               to
               the
            
             Graecian
             
               Church
               ,
               for
               the
               Law
               forbiddeth
               the
               party
               to
               bee
               Judge
               .
            
             And
             what
             Law
             hee
             meanes
             may
             be
             perceived
             by
             his
             words
             in
             Page
             208.
             of
             the
             same
             Treatise
             ,
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               If
               one
               man
               be
               wronged
               and
               see
               truth
               suffer
               by
               partiality
               ,
               the
               Law
               of
               Nature
               will
               warrant
               him
               to
               appeale
               to
               an
               Assembly
               ,
               where
               there
               is
               more
               light
               and
               greater
               Authority
               ,
               as
               the
               weaker
               may
               fly
               to
               the
               stronger
               .
            
             Now
             let
             himselfe
             be
             judge
             whether
             in
             these
             testimonies
             compared
             ,
             he
             do
             not
             teach
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             against
             the
             Law
             of
             Nature
             that
             parties
             should
             be
             Iudge●
             ,
             and
             that
             therefore
             men
             may
             appeale
             from
             them
             .
             Againe
             ,
             those
             words
             Page
             27
             of
             the
             same
             Book
             are
             so
             plaine
             as
             that
             nothing
             can
             be
             more
             ,
             
               These
               words
               saith
               he
               what
               soever
               yee
               bind
               on
               earth
               ,
               &c.
               
               Must
               be
               meant
               only
               of
               the
               Apostles
               ,
               and
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
            
             verse
             18.
             
             
               Yea
               ,
               and
               it
               must
               exclude
            
             Peter
             
               and
               his
               offending
               Brother
               ,
               suppose
               they
               were
               both
               beleevers
               ;
               because
               parties
               by
               the
               Law
               of
               Nature
               and
               Nations
               cannot
               be
               Iudges
               .
            
             Las●ly
             ,
             those
             words
             are
             expresse
             in
             his
             
               Due
               Right
               of
               Presbytery
            
             ,
             in
             his
             see
             ●nd
             P.
             338
             ,
             339.
             
             Where
             hee
             writes
             thus
             ,
             
               If
               according
               to
               the
               Law
               of
               Nature
               and
               Nations
               ,
               no
               man
               can
               be
               Iudge
               in
               his
               own
               cause
               ,
               then
               are
               appeales
               from
               the
               Eldership
               of
               one
               Congregation
               ,
               when
               they
               are
               a
               party
               to
               the
               caused
               person
               ,
               Naturall
               —
               but
               the
               former
               is
               reason
               ,
               Nature
               ,
               Law
               of
               Nations
               .
            
             Ergo
             
               so
               is
               the
               latter
            
             .
             In
             the
             Assumption
             of
             which
             Sylogisme
             he
             plainly
             affirmes
             that
             it
             is
             reason
             ,
             Nature
             ,
             and
             the
             Law
             of
             Nations
             ,
             that
             no
             man
             may
             be
             judge
             in
             his
             own
             cause
             ,
             and
             by
             all
             this
             I
             suppose
             t●
             is
             manifest
             that
             the
             thing
             which
             he
             saith
             none
             of
             them
             do
             teach
             is
             expresly
             and
             plainly
             taught
             by
             some
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             among
             others
             even
             by
             himselfe
             ,
             who
             therefore
             ought
             not
             to
             have
             denyed
             the
             same
             ,
             nor
             can
             bee
             cleered
             from
             much
             forgetfulnesse
             in
             so
             doing
             .
          
           
             And
             if
             so
             great
             an
             oversight
             be
             found
             in
             him
             ,
             I
             hope
             himself
             may
             thereby
             be
             intreated
             to
             be
             tender
             of
             agravating
             matters
             against
             us
             or
             others
             ,
             at
             leastwise
             not
             so
             farre
             to
             agravate
             them
             ,
             as
             to
             impute
             unto
             us
             matters
             which
             we
             do
             not
             hold
             :
             for
             a
             mans
             owne
             
             infirmities
             should
             make
             him
             more
             equitable
             and
             favourable
             towards
             others
             .
             And
             Christian
             Readers
             may
             be
             warned
             hereby
             not
             hastily
             to
             receive
             all
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             written
             ,
             afore
             they
             have
             duly
             examined
             and
             tryed
             the
             same
             ,
             whether
             the
             things
             bee
             so
             or
             not
             ,
             for
             wee
             see
             through
             forgetfulnesse
             or
             otherwise
             hee
             may
             greatly
             mistake
             himselfe
             ,
             and
             misse
             of
             the
             truth
             ,
             and
             give
             forth
             such
             sayings
             and
             expressions
             for
             truth
             ,
             as
             are
             in
             no
             sort
             to
             be
             maintained
             but
             recalled
             ,
             though
             neverthelesse
             he
             is
             otherwise
             a
             man
             of
             great
             worth
             ,
             and
             so
             ever
             to
             be
             acknowledged
             .
          
           
             We
             teach
             that
             it
             is
             not
             Congruous
             to
             the
             wisdome
             of
             Christ
             ,
             nor
             to
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             that
             Christ
             should
             have
             appointed
             all
             the
             ordinary
             Church
             Courts
             ,
             so
             many
             thousand
             Congregations
             ,
             who
             may
             rather
             crie
             then
             extraordinary
             and
             higher
             Synods
             to
             bee
             the
             onely
             ordinary
             Iudges
             in
             their
             own
             cause
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             These
             qualifications
             and
             limitations
             of
             the
             matter
             of
             parties
             being
             Iudges
             are
             such
             as
             to
             my
             remembrance
             I
             never
             heard
             given
             afore
             now
             .
             Now
             indeed
             it
             is
             said
             1.
             
             That
             all
             Congregations
             being
             so
             many
             thousand
             .
             2.
             
             May
             not
             be
             the
             only
             ordinary
             Iudges
             in
             their
             own
             cause
             ,
             but
             it
             would
             bee
             against
             the
             wisdome
             of
             Christ
             and
             light
             of
             Nature
             if
             it
             should
             so
             be
             ;
             Yet
             formerly
             it
             was
             delivered
             absolutely
             and
             simply
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             for
             parties
             to
             be
             Iudges
             ,
             without
             any
             such
             modifications
             and
             qualifications
             as
             now
             Mr.
             Rutherf
             .
             gives
             to
             help
             the
             matter
             withall
             .
             Neverthelesse
             by
             qualifying
             the
             thing
             in
             this
             sort
             ,
             it
             seemes
             thereby
             to
             bee
             still
             granted
             that
             though
             so
             many
             thousand
             Congregations
             may
             not
             ordinarily
             be
             Iudge
             in
             their
             own
             cause
             ,
             but
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             will
             be
             against
             it
             ,
             yet
             for
             some
             Congregations
             and
             at
             some
             times
             the
             thing
             may
             be
             allowed
             well
             enough
             :
             else
             why
             is
             the
             thing
             denyed
             only
             to
             so
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             ordinarily
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             not
             thereby
             implyed
             that
             some
             Congregations
             and
             at
             some
             times
             may
             thus
             practise
             ?
             Now
             hereupon
             the
             question
             groweth
             ,
             whether
             some
             at
             some
             times
             may
             bee
             allowed
             to
             do
             contrary
             to
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             though
             all
             may
             not
             :
             or
             whether
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             bee
             changed
             when
             there
             comes
             to
             be
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             be
             not
             the
             same
             that
             it
             was
             before
             ,
             when
             there
             was
             no
             more
             Congregations
             but
             one
             ,
             whether
             I
             say
             some
             new
             light
             of
             Nature
             do
             arise
             with
             the
             rise
             of
             new
             Congregations
             ,
             so
             that
             when
             they
             are
             many
             it
             would
             be
             against
             this
             light
             for
             them
             thus
             to
             bee
             Iudges
             ,
             though
             it
             was
             not
             so
             when
             there
             was
             but
             one
             :
             or
             whether
             we
             must
             say
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             remaining
             in
             the
             same
             ,
             one
             Congregation
             remaining
             alone
             may
             be
             allowed
             to
             do
             contrary
             thereto
             ,
             but
             many
             may
             not
             .
             It
             seemes
             to
             be
             inconvenient
             and
             ha●d
             to
             affirme
             either
             of
             these
             ;
             and
             yet
             the
             one
             or
             the
             other
             seemes
             unavoidable
             by
             this
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             here
             teacheth
             .
             For
             let
             it
             be
             granted
             that
             a
             Congregation
             that
             is
             alone
             ,
             yea
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             yea
             a
             Nationall
             Councell
             also
             may
             be
             Iudges
             in
             their
             own
             cause
             ,
             and
             that
             no
             light
             of
             Nature
             is
             against
             the
             same
             ,
             and
             yet
             many
             Congregations
             may
             not
             be
             so
             ,
             but
             then
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             will
             be
             against
             it
             ,
             let
             these
             things
             I
             say
             be
             granted
             ,
             which
             are
             all
             of
             them
             granted
             and
             taught
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             and
             then
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             how
             the
             inconveniences
             mentioned
             can
             be
             avoided
             ;
             I
             meane
             how
             it
             can
             be
             avoided
             ,
             but
             either
             some
             men
             or
             Church
             Assemblies
             may
             lawfully
             do
             that
             which
             is
             against
             the
             very
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             or
             else
             that
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             is
             changed
             when
             many
             Congregations
             do
             
             arise
             ,
             from
             that
             which
             it
             was
             when
             there
             was
             but
             one
             .
             Yea
             the
             difficulty
             and
             intrica●y
             in
             this
             way
             is
             yet
             more
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             well
             considered
             .
             For
             first
             of
             all
             when
             a
             Congregation
             is
             alone
             ,
             it
             is
             yeelded
             that
             it
             is
             not
             against
             Natures
             light
             for
             them
             to
             bee
             Iudges
             in
             their
             own
             cause
             .
             Secondly
             ,
             when
             many
             Congregations
             do
             arise
             ,
             now
             it
             is
             said
             it
             is
             against
             such
             light
             ,
             that
             they
             should
             so
             be
             Iudges
             :
             Yet
             thirdly
             ,
             when
             these
             Congregations
             do
             gather
             into
             a
             Nationall
             Councell
             ,
             then
             this
             light
             of
             Nature
             will
             allow
             them
             to
             be
             Iudges
             ,
             as
             in
             the
             first
             case
             of
             a
             single
             Congregation
             that
             is
             alone
             :
             And
             the
             same
             is
             also
             said
             of
             the
             generall
             Councell
             :
             so
             that
             here
             is
             strange
             varying
             and
             changing
             of
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             and
             of
             that
             which
             is
             against
             it
             ,
             lawfull
             or
             unlawfull
             thereby
             .
             And
             when
             good
             reason
             and
             ground
             is
             given
             for
             the
             cleering
             of
             these
             things
             ,
             we
             shall
             then
             consider
             further
             thereof
             ,
             and
             see
             more
             then
             yet
             we
             do
             .
             In
             the
             meane
             time
             taking
             what
             is
             granted
             ,
             that
             no
             light
             of
             Nature
             forbids
             a
             Congregation
             when
             it
             is
             alone
             ,
             to
             have
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             within
             it selfe
             ,
             nor
             forbids
             the
             same
             to
             the
             generall
             or
             Nationall
             Councels
             ,
             I
             thinke
             it
             may
             thence
             be
             inferred
             ,
             that
             the
             like
             must
             be
             allowed
             to
             Congregationall
             Churches
             that
             have
             neighbours
             ,
             and
             that
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             in
             these
             is
             no
             more
             against
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             ,
             then
             in
             the
             other
             .
             For
             to
             say
             that
             one
             Congregation
             may
             have
             this
             entirenesse
             of
             Iurisdiction
             and
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             allowe●
             it
             ,
             and
             others
             may
             not
             but
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             forbids
             it
             ;
             yea
             to
             say
             first
             the
             light
             of
             Nature
             allowes
             it
             ,
             and
             then
             it
             forbids
             it
             ,
             and
             then
             it
             allowes
             it
             againe
             ,
             these
             are
             such
             abstruse
             and
             intricate
             things
             ,
             yea
             so
             apparantly
             incongruous
             and
             inconsistent
             ,
             that
             it
             passeth
             my
             understanding
             to
             perceive
             how
             they
             can
             stand
             together
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XIII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Churches
             at
             Thessalonica
             and
             Ierusalem
             ,
             were
             each
             of
             them
             more
             then
             one
             Congregation
             ;
             and
             of
             Mr.
             Baynes
             his
             Iudgement
             therein
             .
             Of
             the
             Assembly
             mentioned
             Luke
             12.
             
             And
             whether
             our
             Saviour
             did
             there
             speake
             to
             his
             Disciples
             onely
             ,
             or
             to
             all
             the
             people
             also
             .
          
           
             
               IT
               is
               a
               wonder
               to
               me
               saith
               our
               Author
               Page
            
             457.
             
             That
             Thessalonica
             was
             but
             one
             Congregation
             —
             yet
             the
             Apostle
             ascribeth
             to
             them
             that
             which
             is
             a
             note
             to
             worthy
             Baynes
             of
             the
             unmerous
             multitude
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Jerusalem
             ,
             from
             whence
             went
             the
             word
             of
             Ged
             to
             all
             the
             World.
             1
             
               Thes
               .
               1.
               8.
            
             
             For
             from
             you
             sounded
             out
             the
             word
             of
             the
             Lord
             not
             onely
             in
             Macedonia
             ,
             and
             Achaia
             ,
             but
             in
             every
             place
             your
             Faith
             to
             God-ward
             is
             spread
             abroad
             .
          
           
           
             Answ
             .
             All
             this
             doth
             not
             hinder
             but
             Thessalonica
             might
             be
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             though
             perhaps
             a
             great
             one
             .
             For
             that
             the
             word
             did
             sound
             out
             from
             them
             to
             others
             ,
             and
             their
             Faith
             to
             Godward
             was
             spread
             abroad
             ,
             what
             is
             there
             in
             all
             this
             to
             prove
             they
             were
             many
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Church
             ?
             And
             for
             Mr.
             Baynes
             whom
             our
             Author
             worthily
             counts
             a
             worthy
             man
             ,
             there
             is
             nothing
             in
             him
             that
             will
             serve
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             purpose
             ,
             but
             much
             that
             makes
             for
             the
             contrary
             .
             For
             it
             is
             well
             known
             in
             his
             Diocesans
             Triall
             he
             maintaines
             at
             large
             ,
             that
             Churches
             by
             the
             appointment
             of
             Chr●st
             are
             Congregationall
             ,
             and
             denyes
             that
             one
             Congregation
             may
             be
             one
             Church
             :
             and
             in
             the
             particular
             instances
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             at
             Jerusalem
             ,
             at
             Co●i●th
             ,
             at
             Ephesus
             ,
             at
             Antioch
             and
             others
             ,
             he
             holds
             the
             very
             same
             that
             we
             do
             ,
             and
             the
             direct
             contrary
             to
             that
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             stands
             for
             .
             And
             therefore
             whereas
             he
             wonders
             that
             Thessalonica
             should
             bee
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             considering
             what
             the
             Apostle
             saith
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             what
             Mr.
             Baynes
             hath
             said
             of
             Jerusalem
             ,
             I
             may
             more
             justly
             wonder
             that
             he
             should
             once
             mention
             Mr.
             Baynes
             in
             this
             cause
             .
             For
             if
             ever
             there
             was
             man
             in
             this
             world
             that
             deny●d
             many
             Congregations
             to
             be
             one
             Church
             ,
             and
             allowed
             onely
             such
             Churches
             to
             be
             instituted
             of
             Christ
             as
             may
             meete
             ordinarily
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             this
             Mr.
             Baynes
             was
             one
             of
             them
             ;
             and
             therefore
             a
             wonder
             it
             is
             to
             me
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             should
             thinke
             to
             have
             help
             from
             him
             in
             this
             question
             .
             But
             let
             us
             consider
             what
             it
             is
             that
             Mr
             Baynes
             doth
             say
             of
             the
             Church
             at
             
               Ierusalem
               :
               Why
               ,
               this
               which
               the
               Apostle
               affirmeth
               of
               the
            
             Thessalonians
             Mr.
             Baynes
             
               doth
               make
               a
               note
               of
               the
               numerous
               multitude
               of
               the
               Church
               at
            
             Ierusalem
             .
             But
             doth
             hee
             make
             it
             a
             note
             of
             many
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             ?
             If
             he
             do
             ,
             this
             were
             something
             to
             the
             purpose
             ,
             I
             grant
             .
             But
             I
             hope
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             will
             not
             so
             report
             of
             Mr.
             Baynes
             ;
             For
             it
             is
             plaine
             Mr.
             Bayne●
             doth
             not
             so
             speake
             ,
             but
             expresly
             saith
             the
             direct
             contrary
             ;
             and
             therefore
             what
             ever
             numerous
             multitude
             might
             be
             in
             that
             Church
             ,
             and
             what
             ever
             might
             be
             a
             note
             of
             such
             multitude
             ,
             except
             Mr.
             Baynes
             had
             said
             that
             the
             multitude
             was
             such
             as
             made
             many
             Congregations
             and
             yet
             all
             but
             one
             Church
             (
             which
             he
             never
             said
             but
             the
             contrary
             )
             there
             is
             no
             help
             to
             be
             had
             from
             Mr.
             Baynes
             in
             this
             businesse
             .
             For
             who
             knoweth
             not
             that
             there
             might
             be
             a
             numerous
             multitude
             ,
             and
             yet
             but
             one
             Congregation
             ?
             Sure
             in
             Mr.
             Baynes
             his
             judgement
             it
             might
             be
             so
             ,
             and
             therefore
             though
             hee
             grant
             a
             numerous
             multitude
             in
             this
             Church
             at
             Jerusalem
             ,
             yet
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             purpose
             for
             many
             Congregations
             in
             Thessal●nica
             and
             yet
             all
             but
             one
             Church
             ,
             is
             not
             gained
             ,
             nor
             at
             all
             holpen
             thereby
             .
          
           
             Which
             will
             better
             appeare
             if
             Mr.
             Baynes
             his
             Argumentation
             in
             the
             place
             which
             I
             conceive
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             aymes
             at
             ,
             be
             considered
             in
             Page
             3.
             of
             his
             
               Diocesans
               Tryall
            
             ,
             he
             propounds
             an
             Argument
             of
             theirs
             who
             would
             have
             many
             Congregations
             to
             be
             one
             Church
             ,
             taken
             from
             the
             example
             of
             the
             ancient
             Churches
             of
             Rome
             and
             Alexandria
             ,
             laid
             down
             in
             these
             words
             :
             
               If
               the
               multitude
               of
               Christians
               did
               in
            
             Ierusalem
             
               so
               increase
               within
               a
               little
               time
               ,
               that
               they
               exceeded
               the
               proportion
               of
               one
               Congregation
               ,
               how
               much
               more
               likely
               is
               it
               that
               Christians
               in
            
             Rome
             and
             Alexandria
             
               did
               so
               increase
               in
               200
               yeares
               ,
               that
               they
               could
               not
               keepe
               in
               one
               particular
               Assembly
               :
               But
               the
               first
               is
               true
               ,
            
             Ergo
             
               also
               the
               latter
            
             .
             Now
             when
             he
             cames
             to
             answer
             this
             Argument
             ,
             Pag.
             18
             ,
             19.
             
             What
             doth
             he
             then
             say
             .
             
               First
               of
               all
               he
               saith
               ,
               The
               Proposition
               is
               not
               of
               necessary
               consequence
               ,
               for
               
               there
               were
               saith
               he
               very
               extraordinary
               reasons
               of
               that
               which
               was
               effected
               in
            
             Ierusalem
             :
             And
             so
             he
             proceeds
             to
             mention
             5
             ,
             or
             6.
             reasons
             in
             particular
             ,
             of
             which
             one
             is
             this
             which
             it
             may
             be
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             an
             eye
             unto
             ,
             that
             the
             state
             of
             this
             Church
             was
             such
             as
             that
             it
             was
             to
             send
             out
             light
             to
             all
             others
             ,
             a
             common
             aursery
             to
             the
             World.
             And
             therefore
             if
             the
             thing
             were
             granted
             that
             in
             Jerusalem
             there
             was
             a
             numerous
             multitude
             ,
             yea
             such
             a
             multitude
             as
             could
             not
             be
             contained
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             yet
             saith
             he
             ,
             
               It
               doth
               not
               follow
               from
               this
               particular
               to
               the
               so
               great
               increasing
               of
               these
               Churches
               ,
               to
               wit
               ,
               of
            
             Rome
             and
             Alexandria
             
               in
               tract
               of
               time
            
             .
             And
             even
             so
             may
             I
             say
             ,
             it
             doth
             not
             follow
             to
             the
             so
             great
             increasing
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             the
             Thessalonians
             ,
             there
             being
             such
             extraordinary
             reasons
             for
             that
             which
             was
             effected
             in
             Ierusalem
             ,
             as
             neither
             Rome
             nor
             Alexandria
             ,
             nor
             yet
             Thessalonica
             could
             alledge
             the
             same
             .
             And
             this
             is
             his
             Answer
             to
             the
             Proposition
             .
             But
             for
             the
             Assumption
             ,
             where
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             help
             must
             chiefly
             lye
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             the
             multitude
             of
             Christians
             in
             Ierusalem
             did
             exceed
             the
             proportion
             of
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             this
             Mr.
             Baynes
             doth
             expresly
             deny
             :
             not
             to
             mention
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             
               That
               we
               do
               deny
               the
               Assumption
               .
            
             Therefore
             ,
             the
             Proposition
             being
             by
             Mr.
             Baynes
             not
             yeelded
             ,
             and
             the
             Assumption
             expresly
             denyed
             ,
             I
             see
             not
             how
             Master
             Rutherford
             can
             have
             any
             help
             to
             his
             cause
             from
             either
             of
             both
             .
          
           
             He
             denyes
             not
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             What
             Mr.
             Tompson
             and
             I
             do
             say
             ,
             that
             5000
             may
             meet
             to
             hear
             the
             word
             ,
             many
             thousands
             were
             gathered
             together
             ,
             Luke
             12
             to
             heare
             Christ
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             this
             be
             not
             denyed
             ,
             then
             suppose
             there
             were
             5000
             or
             more
             in
             the
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             it
             doth
             not
             follow
             therefore
             that
             that
             Church
             was
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             so
             our
             purpose
             is
             gained
             .
          
           
             But
             we
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             Leave
             out
             the
             inconveniences
             of
             thronging
             so
             all
             at
             once
             ,
             for
             they
             trod
             one
             upon
             another
             .
             Second
             ,
             Christ
             Preached
             not
             to
             all
             those
             thousands
             at
             once
             ,
             for
             it
             is
             expresly
             said
             verse
             1.
             
             Hee
             began
             to
             say
             to
             his
             Disciples
             ;
             so
             ,
             Christ
             refusing
             to
             Preach
             to
             such
             a
             disorderly
             confluence
             of
             people
             ,
             who
             could
             not
             heare
             ,
             and
             his
             Doctrine
             being
             all
             for
             his
             Disciples
             ,
             the
             very
             Sermon
             being
             Preached
             to
             his
             Disciples
             onely
             —
             evidenceth
             to
             me
             that
             Christ
             condemneth
             a
             numerous
             multitude
             to
             heare
             at
             once
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             Question
             is
             not
             about
             the
             conveniency
             or
             inconveniency
             of
             such
             excessively
             great
             Assemblies
             ;
             but
             whether
             there
             be
             an
             impossibility
             in
             Nature
             ,
             and
             reason
             ,
             that
             so
             many
             as
             are
             said
             to
             bee
             in
             the
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             should
             assemble
             and
             come
             together
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ;
             for
             this
             is
             sometimes
             said
             for
             the
             proving
             of
             sundry
             Congregations
             in
             that
             one
             Church
             .
             Now
             if
             this
             be
             not
             impossible
             ,
             then
             the
             plurality
             of
             Congregations
             in
             that
             one
             Church
             cannot
             bee
             concluded
             by
             those
             great
             multitudes
             that
             were
             therein
             .
             And
             that
             it
             is
             not
             impossible
             for
             such
             great
             multitudes
             to
             come
             together
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             the
             Scripture
             alledged
             Luke
             12
             ,
             doth
             witnesse
             .
             If
             they
             trod
             one
             upon
             another
             ,
             that
             might
             argue
             the
             Assembly
             was
             very
             great
             ,
             and
             
             that
             they
             were
             very
             desirous
             to
             bee
             neere
             unto
             our
             Saviour
             for
             their
             better
             hearing
             ,
             but
             doth
             not
             at
             all
             prove
             that
             such
             multitudes
             are
             so
             great
             as
             that
             they
             cannot
             possibly
             be
             spoke
             unto
             and
             heare
             in
             one
             Congregation
             .
             
               And
               therefore
               ,
               whereas
               our
               Brother
               saith
               ,
               Christ
               preached
               not
               to
               all
               those
               thousands
               at
               once
               ,
               and
               that
               he
               refused
               to
               Preach
               to
               such
               a
               disorderly
               confluence
               of
               People
               ,
            
             With
             favour
             of
             so
             worthy
             a
             man
             ,
             I
             thinke
             the
             truth
             is
             otherwise
             .
             For
             though
             he
             began
             to
             speak
             to
             his
             Disciples
             ,
             verse
             1.
             
             And
             exhorted
             them
             against
             worldly
             carefulnesse
             ,
             verse
             22.
             
             Yet
             others
             who
             were
             not
             Disciples
             were
             present
             ,
             and
             did
             also
             heare
             his
             Sermon
             :
             Witnesse
             that
             in
             verse
             13.
             
             Where
             it
             is
             said
             that
             one
             of
             the
             company
             (
             interrupting
             our
             Saviour
             as
             it
             seemes
             )
             demands
             of
             him
             that
             hee
             would
             speake
             to
             his
             Brother
             about
             dividing
             the
             Inheritance
             ;
             to
             whom
             our
             Saviour
             makes
             answer
             ,
             verse
             14.
             
             Which
             plainly
             ●hewes
             that
             all
             the
             p●esent
             company
             were
             not
             Disciples
             .
             Yea
             whereas
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             that
             hereupon
             our
             Saviour
             spake
             to
             them
             of
             bewaring
             and
             taking
             heed
             of
             Coveteousnesse
             ,
             verse
             15.
             
             And
             sp●ke
             a
             Parable
             to
             them
             of
             a
             certain
             rich
             man
             ,
             
               verse
               16.
            
             
             And
             after
             this
             said
             to
             his
             Disciples
             ,
             
               verse
               22.
               
               Take
               ●o
               thought
               for
               your
               life
               what
               you
               shall
               eate
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             It
             appeareth
             hereby
             that
             these
             persons
             spoken
             to
             afterward
             
               verse
               15
               ,
               16
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             Were
             not
             the
             Disciples
             ,
             who
             were
             spoken
             to
             afterward
             ,
             
               verse
               22.
            
             
             But
             were
             some
             other
             people
             besides
             .
             And
             what
             can
             be
             more
             plaine
             then
             that
             in
             verse
             54.
             where
             it
             is
             expresly
             said
             ,
             that
             Christ
             spake
             unto
             the
             people
             ,
             rebuking
             them
             for
             their
             hypocrisie
             ,
             that
             could
             discerne
             the
             face
             of
             the
             Skye
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             Earth
             ,
             but
             could
             not
             discerne
             that
             time
             ?
             And
             he
             said
             also
             to
             the
             people
             ,
             saith
             the
             Text
             ;
             doth
             it
             not
             plainly
             appeare
             hereby
             that
             as
             Myriads
             of
             people
             were
             gathered
             together
             ,
             ver
             .
             1
             So
             our
             Saviour
             spake
             the
             word
             unto
             those
             people
             ?
             I
             suppose
             the
             thing
             is
             manifest
             ,
             and
             that
             therefore
             our
             Brothers
             words
             cannot
             stand
             ,
             when
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               That
               Christ
               Preached
               not
               to
               that
               confluence
               of
               people
               ,
               but
               refused
               so
               to
               do
               ,
               his
               Doctrine
               being
               all
               for
               his
               Disciples
               ,
            
             For
             we
             see
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             witnesseth
             that
             hee
             spake
             not
             onely
             to
             his
             Disciples
             ,
             but
             to
             the
             people
             also
             :
             Chemniti●s
             hath
             these
             words
             ,
             
               Neg●ri
               non
               potest
               ●n
               hac
               satis
               prolixi
               concione
               ,
               &c.
               
               It
               cannot
               bee
               denyed
               that
               Christ
               in
               this
               long
               Sermon
               of
               his
               ,
               directed
               his
               speech
               first
               to
               his
               Disciples
               ,
               second
               to
               his
               friends
               ,
               Third
               to
               one
               of
               the
               company
               .
               Fourth
               to
            
             Peter
             
               demanding
               a
               question
               .
               Fift
               to
               all
               the
               multitude
               ,
               and
               it
               seemes
               the
               Ev●ngelist
               was
               willing
               as
               it
               were
               to
               reckon
               up
               these
               severall
               parts
               or
               members
               of
               the
               Sermon
               ,
            
             Harmon
             .
             chap.
             110.
             
             And
             the
             Refuter
             of
             Dr.
             Downams
             Sermon
             saith
             ,
             
               The
               mention
               of
               many
               thousands
               in
            
             Jerusalem
             
               doth
               not
               make
               the
               number
               such
               as
               by
               no
               meanes
               could
               meete
               together
               in
               the
               publike
               worship
               of
               God
               ,
               seeing
               it
               is
               apparent
               ,
            
             Luke
             12.
             1.
             
               that
               the
               people
               which
               assembled
               unto
               Christ
               and
               partake
               his
               '
               Doctrine
               were
               also
               many
               Myriads
               :
               and
               albeit
               he
               began
               at
               the
               first
               to
               speake
               to
               his
               Disciples
            
             verse
             1.
             
             
               Yet
               afterward
               he
               spake
               to
               all
               the
               people
               assembled
               ,
            
             ver
             .
             13.
             15.
             54.
             
             Reply
             
               P.
               2.
               
               P.
            
             90.
             
             Wherefore
             though
             our
             Brother
             say
             Christ
             spake
             not
             to
             these
             multitudes
             of
             people
             but
             to
             his
             Disciples
             onely
             ,
             yet
             sith
             wee
             have
             the
             ●ext
             it selfe
             ,
             and
             the
             judgement
             of
             two
             Divines
             of
             chiefe
             note
             ,
             expresly
             witnessing
             the
             contrary
             ,
             therefore
             we
             cannot
             assent
             
             to
             him
             herein
             .
             Whereas
             Chrysostome
             
               saith
               5000
               did
               heare
               his
               voyce
               at
               once
               in
               one
               Congregation
               by
               meanes
               of
               Scaffolds
               and
               Galleries
               ,
               and
               Mr.
            
             Mather
             
               is
               willing
               to
               yeeld
               8120
               were
               all
               assembled
               in
               one
               place
               to
               heare
               the
               word
               ,
               and
               that
               all
               the
               multitude
               of
               Converts
               at
            
             Ierusalem
             
               were
               together
               in
            
             Solomons
             Porch
             Acts
             5
             12.
             
             
               I
               grant
               3000
               could
               heare
               at
               once
               ,
               but
               alas
               &c
               Page
               458.
               
               Answ
               .
            
             If
             Chrysostomes
             testimony
             be
             of
             any
             weight
             ,
             or
             Mr.
             Baynes
             his
             testimony
             by
             whom
             Chrysostome
             is
             alledged
             
               Diocesans
               Triall
            
             ,
             Page
             16.
             
             Then
             a
             must
             be
             granted
             that
             not
             only
             3000
             ,
             but
             a
             greater
             number
             ,
             even
             50●0
             at
             least
             may
             heare
             the
             word
             at
             once
             .
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             5000
             members
             in
             the
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             will
             not
             prove
             plurality
             of
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Church
             ,
             forasmuch
             as
             here
             are
             5000
             people
             and
             yet
             no
             more
             Congregations
             but
             one
             .
          
           
             But
             alas
             this
             is
             a
             great
             uncertainty
             for
             independant
             Congregations
             ,
             but
             this
             is
             to
             be
             proved
             ,
             first
             that
             8000
             (
             Mr.
             Mather
             hath
             not
             added
             many
             other
             multitudes
             
               mentioned
               ,
               Acts
            
             5.
             14.
             
             &
             6.
             17.
             
             )
             did
             meete
             dayly
             in
             the
             Temple
             .
             Second
             ,
             dayly
             or
             ordinarily
             from
             house
             to
             house
             .
             Third
             ,
             to
             celebrate
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             dayly
             in
             the
             Temple
             and
             in
             every
             private
             house
             ,
             and
             there
             were
             need
             of
             many
             Scaffolds
             and
             Galleries
             ,
             to
             sit
             at
             one
             Table
             .
             Fourth
             ,
             to
             make
             one
             Judicature
             ,
             &c.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             He
             that
             shall
             look
             upon
             the
             Answer
             Page
             34
             will
             plainely
             see
             that
             I
             have
             here
             spoken
             to
             both
             those
             places
             of
             Acts
             5.
             14.
             
             &
             6
             1.
             
             Shewing
             that
             neither
             of
             them
             do
             prove
             a
             plurality
             of
             Congregations
             in
             this
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             but
             rather
             the
             contrary
             .
             And
             therefore
             this
             Parenthesis
             which
             doth
             intimate
             that
             I
             have
             omitted
             to
             speake
             to
             these
             places
             ,
             must
             not
             be
             assented
             to
             ,
             but
             denyed
             .
          
           
             But
             why
             must
             these
             foure
             particulars
             be
             proved
             ?
             I
             suppose
             he
             meanes
             because
             of
             that
             which
             is
             said
             
               Act.
               2
               46.
               
               They
               continued
               dayly
               with
               one
               accord
               in
               the
               Temple
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             But
             this
             doth
             not
             cleere
             it
             ,
             that
             these
             foure
             particulars
             must
             needs
             be
             proved
             ,
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             ;
             First
             ,
             because
             Iudicature
             which
             is
             one
             of
             the
             particulars
             ,
             is
             not
             mentioned
             at
             all
             in
             that
             Scripture
             ;
             nor
             is
             it
             said
             by
             us
             ,
             that
             a
             dayly
             exercise
             thereof
             is
             necessary
             in
             every
             Church
             or
             in
             any
             .
             Second
             ,
             the
             Lord
             Supper
             ,
             which
             is
             another
             of
             the
             particulars
             ,
             is
             not
             mentioned
             at
             all
             in
             that
             Text
             ,
             at
             leastwise
             not
             in
             those
             words
             or
             termes
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             sets
             down
             ;
             much
             lesse
             is
             it
             said
             as
             he
             expresseth
             it
             ,
             that
             they
             did
             dayly
             celebrate
             the
             same
             both
             in
             the
             Temple
             and
             in
             every
             private
             house
             :
             nor
             can
             the
             same
             for
             ought
             I
             know
             be
             proved
             by
             this
             or
             by
             any
             other
             Scripture
             ,
             nor
             was
             such
             a
             thing
             ever
             affirmed
             by
             us
             ,
             so
             farre
             as
             I
             know
             .
             I
             suppose
             if
             they
             had
             celebrated
             it
             in
             the
             Temple
             alone
             ,
             or
             in
             some
             private
             house
             or
             houses
             alone
             ,
             that
             might
             have
             been
             sufficient
             ,
             without
             any
             necessity
             of
             celebrating
             the
             same
             in
             both
             places
             upon
             one
             day
             ,
             both
             in
             the
             Temple
             and
             in
             the
             houses
             too
             .
             Nay
             it
             is
             a
             question
             whether
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             bee
             at
             all
             intended
             in
             this
             place
             ;
             though
             I
             doubt
             not
             but
             they
             observed
             that
             Ordinance
             ,
             and
             verse
             42.
             may
             possibly
             teach
             so
             much
             .
             But
             for
             the
             verse
             we
             are
             speaking
             of
             ,
             viz
             ,
             Verse
             46
             ▪
             there
             is
             no
             necessity
             that
             the
             breaking
             of
             Bread
             there
             spoken
             of
             ,
             must
             needs
             be
             meant
             of
             that
             Ordinance
             .
             Sure
             he
             was
             a
             judicious
             expositor
             who
             understands
             it
             otherwise
             ,
             
               Quod
               hic
               fractionem
               panis
               &c.
            
             
             That
             is
             ,
             
             whereas
             some
             expound
             breaking
             of
             Bread
             in
             this
             place
             of
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             ,
             it
             seems
             to
             me
             to
             be
             farre
             from
             Lukes
             intention
             :
             Calvin
             in
             Act.
             2.
             46.
             
             So
             then
             ,
             of
             Mr
             Rutherfords
             foure
             particulars
             which
             he
             saith
             we
             must
             prove
             ,
             there
             is
             not
             past
             the
             halfe
             of
             them
             that
             needs
             to
             be
             proved
             at
             all
             ,
             the
             two
             last
             being
             already
             removed
             .
             And
             for
             a
             third
             which
             is
             of
             breaking
             of
             Bread
             dayly
             and
             ordinarily
             from
             house
             to
             house
             ,
             understand
             this
             breaking
             of
             Bread
             as
             Calvin
             doth
             ,
             of
             their
             civill
             repast
             ,
             and
             then
             it
             hurts
             not
             our
             cause
             at
             all
             ,
             though
             it
             be
             yeelded
             that
             they
             did
             dayly
             meet
             for
             such
             purpose
             in
             severall
             companies
             ,
             in
             their
             private
             houses
             ;
             for
             this
             they
             might
             do
             and
             bee
             no
             more
             but
             one
             Congregation
             .
             There
             remaines
             therefore
             onely
             one
             that
             needs
             to
             be
             proved
             ,
             namely
             the
             first
             ,
             that
             they
             did
             dayly
             meete
             in
             the
             Temple
             ;
             and
             this
             may
             bee
             proved
             with
             case
             ,
             because
             the
             plain
             words
             of
             the
             Text
             do
             affirme
             it
             ,
             
               They
               continued
               dayly
               with
               one
               accord
               in
               the
               Temple
            
             ;
             so
             that
             yet
             we
             have
             found
             nothing
             that
             proves
             Ierusalem
             to
             be
             many
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Church
             .
          
           
             Nay
             I
             conceive
             ,
             that
             one
             of
             these
             foure
             particulars
             ,
             viz.
             The
             first
             ,
             of
             their
             dayly
             meeting
             in
             the
             Temple
             ,
             doth
             apparently
             shew
             that
             how
             great
             soever
             the
             number
             was
             ,
             yet
             it
             was
             not
             exceeding
             the
             proportion
             of
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             which
             might
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ;
             For
             the
             Temple
             was
             but
             one
             in
             all
             the
             City
             ,
             I
             meane
             there
             was
             but
             onely
             one
             individuall
             Temple
             ,
             and
             not
             many
             Temples
             ,
             which
             if
             there
             had
             been
             then
             our
             Brethren
             might
             possibly
             have
             said
             ,
             that
             they
             met
             distributively
             in
             sundry
             lesser
             companies
             ,
             but
             were
             to
             many
             too
             meete
             all
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ;
             for
             so
             they
             were
             wont
             to
             expound
             sundry
             other
             phrases
             used
             by
             the
             Holy
             Ghost
             ,
             to
             declare
             their
             comming
             together
             .
             True
             say
             they
             ,
             they
             come
             together
             ,
             but
             how
             ?
             Not
             collectively
             all
             of
             them
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             they
             were
             too
             many
             for
             that
             ;
             but
             they
             came
             together
             distributively
             ,
             some
             of
             them
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             and
             some
             in
             another
             ,
             and
             so
             they
             think
             they
             have
             answered
             sufficiently
             .
             But
             now
             to
             this
             of
             their
             meeting
             together
             in
             the
             Temple
             ,
             they
             cannot
             answer
             so
             ;
             for
             then
             there
             should
             have
             been
             sundry
             Temples
             ,
             in
             which
             they
             might
             have
             met
             ,
             distributed
             into
             sundry
             companies
             ;
             but
             there
             being
             no
             more
             Temples
             but
             one
             ,
             and
             the
             Text
             affirming
             plainly
             that
             they
             all
             met
             with
             one
             accord
             ,
             in
             the
             Temple
             ,
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             ,
             that
             they
             met
             collectively
             ,
             all
             of
             them
             together
             in
             one
             and
             the
             same
             place
             ;
             and
             hence
             it
             followeth
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             not
             so
             many
             but
             still
             they
             might
             be
             one
             Congregation
             as
             well
             as
             one
             Church
             .
          
           
             So
             that
             of
             the
             foure
             particulars
             ,
             which
             he
             saith
             we
             must
             prove
             ,
             some
             wee
             see
             need
             not
             to
             be
             proved
             at
             all
             ,
             and
             the
             first
             of
             them
             which
             we
             can
             prove
             with
             case
             doth
             make
             much
             for
             the
             weakning
             of
             his
             cause
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             strengthening
             of
             ours
             .
          
           
             Yea
             Mr.
             Mather
             will
             have
             the
             whole
             containing
             as
             one
             independant
             Congregation
             ,
             Act.
             6.
             1
             ,
             2
             ,
             3
             ,
             4.
             
             And
             the
             many
             Myriads
             or
             thousands
             of
             beleeving
             Jewes
             ,
             Acts
             21.
             21
             ,
             22
             ,
             23.
             
             To
             meete
             as
             one
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             When
             in
             the
             Answer
             I
             speake
             of
             these
             places
             ,
             the
             word
             Independant
             was
             not
             there
             used
             by
             me
             at
             all
             ,
             but
             only
             is
             here
             added
             by
             himselfe
             ,
             for
             what
             cause
             himselfe
             can
             best
             tell
             .
             But
             for
             the
             matter
             ,
             I
             conceive
             the
             thing
             which
             I
             there
             delivered
             is
             cleere
             from
             the
             Texts
             themselves
             ,
             that
             the
             multitude
             of
             those
             Iewes
             did
             assemble
             and
             come
             together
             ,
             in
             one
             place
             ;
             for
             as
             for
             one
             of
             the
             places
             Act.
             6.
             
             It
             is
             expresly
             there
             said
             that
             the
             Apostles
             called
             the
             multitude
             together
             to
             propose
             unto
             them
             the
             choice
             of
             
             Deacons
             ,
             
               verse
               2
               ▪
            
             and
             bad
             them
             look
             out
             from
             amongst
             themselves
             seaven
             Men
             ,
             qualifyed
             as
             the
             Apostles
             do
             there
             describe
             ,
             verse
             3.
             whereupon
             it
             is
             said
             that
             the
             saying
             pleased
             the
             whole
             multitude
             and
             they
             chose
             seaven
             who
             are
             there
             named
             verse
             5.
             and
             presented
             them
             unto
             the
             Apostles
             that
             they
             might
             lay
             their
             hands
             on
             them
             ,
             verse
             6.
             
             Which
             plainely
             shewes
             that
             the
             whose
             multitude
             how
             many
             soever
             they
             were
             ,
             yet
             were
             not
             so
             many
             ,
             but
             they
             might
             all
             assemble
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             to
             heare
             matters
             proposed
             to
             them
             ,
             to
             consider
             thereof
             ,
             and
             upon
             liking
             to
             put
             them
             in
             execution
             ,
             as
             in
             other
             things
             so
             in
             this
             particular
             ,
             of
             making
             election
             of
             Officers
             ,
             as
             there
             they
             are
             Recorded
             to
             have
             done
             .
             And
             as
             for
             the
             other
             place
             Act.
             21.
             though
             it
             be
             a
             Question
             ,
             whether
             those
             many
             thousand
             Iewes
             ,
             that
             beleeved
             were
             all
             members
             ,
             of
             that
             one
             Church
             at
             Jerusalem
             ,
             yet
             it
             cannot
             be
             any
             question
             ,
             whether
             they
             might
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             sith
             Iames
             and
             the
             Elders
             do
             expresly
             there
             say
             unto
             Paul
             ,
             the
             multitude
             must
             needs
             come
             together
             ,
             for
             they
             will
             heare
             that
             thou
             art
             come
             .
             Nor
             can
             we
             say
             they
             might
             come
             together
             onely
             distributively
             ,
             in
             sundry
             companies
             ,
             but
             not
             all
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             for
             the
             end
             of
             their
             comming
             together
             will
             not
             beare
             that
             exposition
             ,
             which
             end
             was
             ,
             that
             they
             might
             see
             ,
             and
             heare
             Paul
             ,
             and
             try
             what
             satisfaction
             he
             would
             give
             them
             ,
             in
             the
             matter
             whereof
             they
             were
             informed
             of
             him
             ,
             that
             he
             taught
             the
             Iewes
             ,
             to
             forsake
             Moses
             ,
             and
             to
             omit
             Circumcision
             and
             other
             Iewish
             customes
             .
             These
             things
             they
             were
             informed
             to
             have
             been
             taught
             by
             him
             amongst
             the
             Gentiles
             ,
             and
             hearing
             that
             he
             was
             come
             to
             the
             City
             ,
             they
             must
             needs
             come
             together
             to
             heare
             what
             he
             would
             say
             to
             the
             matter
             ,
             and
             how
             hee
             would
             cleere
             himselfe
             .
             Now
             if
             this
             was
             the
             end
             of
             their
             comming
             together
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             that
             their
             comming
             was
             altogether
             unto
             one
             place
             ,
             and
             not
             in
             severall
             companies
             ;
             for
             this
             could
             not
             answer
             their
             end
             ,
             inasmuch
             as
             Paul
             being
             but
             one
             person
             ,
             it
             was
             not
             possible
             they
             could
             see
             him
             ,
             nor
             heare
             him
             in
             sundry
             places
             at
             once
             ;
             and
             therefore
             they
             might
             as
             well
             have
             staid
             at
             home
             ,
             and
             not
             have
             come
             together
             at
             all
             ,
             as
             come
             together
             in
             such
             sort
             .
          
           
             Plaine
             it
             is
             therefore
             ,
             that
             the
             multitude
             spoken
             of
             in
             these
             two
             Scripures
             were
             not
             so
             many
             but
             they
             might
             meete
             in
             one
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Which
             point
             as
             something
             hath
             been
             said
             in
             the
             Answer
             P.
             34
             ,
             35.
             
             For
             the
             cleering
             of
             it
             ,
             so
             I
             am
             the
             more
             confirmed
             in
             it
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             dealing
             concerning
             these
             Scriptures
             .
             For
             though
             he
             make
             mention
             of
             them
             in
             this
             place
             ,
             as
             we
             see
             ,
             and
             of
             that
             apprehension
             of
             mine
             concerning
             those
             Scriptures
             ,
             yet
             he
             doth
             not
             at
             all
             remove
             the
             grounds
             ,
             which
             were
             given
             for
             that
             apprehension
             in
             the
             Answer
             ,
             but
             doth
             wholly
             passe
             them
             by
             in
             silence
             .
             Now
             taking
             occasion
             to
             speak
             of
             the
             Scriptures
             ,
             and
             relating
             what
             my
             apprehension
             was
             concerning
             the
             same
             ,
             and
             yet
             saying
             nothing
             at
             all
             to
             the
             gronnds
             ,
             whereon
             that
             apprehension
             was
             built
             ,
             it
             seemes
             hereby
             to
             bee
             implyed
             that
             indeed
             he
             had
             nothing
             in
             readinesse
             to
             object
             against
             the
             same
             .
             So
             that
             I
             may
             still
             conceive
             of
             those
             Scriptures
             as
             I
             did
             before
             ,
             for
             any
             thing
             yet
             brought
             to
             induce
             me
             to
             be
             of
             another
             mind
             .
          
           
             As
             for
             that
             which
             next
             followes
             ,
             certainly
             the
             Apostles
             practice
             must
             be
             our
             rule
             ,
             and
             then
             500
             or
             1000
             being
             so
             farre
             beneath
             10
             or
             8000
             ,
             may
             well
             seeme
             a
             number
             for
             fewnesse
             not
             competent
             ,
             and
             what
             shall
             wee
             then
             thinke
             of
             7
             only
             ,
             or
             10.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             answer
             is
             ,
             that
             the
             Apostles
             practise
             doth
             not
             at
             all
             condemn
             ours
             ,
             
             though
             our
             Congregations
             have
             not
             in
             them
             the
             like
             numbers
             ,
             but
             sometimes
             more
             and
             sometimes
             lesse
             ;
             for
             was
             it
             not
             so
             in
             that
             Primative
             Apostolike
             Church
             ?
             Is
             it
             not
             plain
             ,
             that
             that
             Church
             was
             for
             number
             farre
             lesser
             at
             the
             first
             ,
             then
             afterward
             ,
             when
             they
             grew
             to
             4000
             or
             more
             ;
             and
             yet
             after
             this
             they
             grew
             to
             be
             fewer
             againe
             ,
             when
             Persecution
             scattered
             them
             all
             abroad
             except
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             Act.
             8.
             1.
             
             And
             therefore
             if
             10
             or
             8000
             ,
             being
             once
             the
             number
             in
             that
             Church
             ,
             be
             a
             rule
             condemning
             out
             Churches
             ,
             as
             being
             for
             fewnesse
             not
             competent
             ,
             when
             they
             are
             beneath
             that
             number
             ,
             how
             will
             it
             be
             avoided
             but
             by
             the
             same
             reason
             the
             practise
             of
             that
             Church
             at
             one
             time
             ,
             shall
             be
             a
             rule
             ,
             for
             the
             condemning
             of
             it self
             at
             another
             time
             ?
             For
             sure
             it
             is
             ,
             their
             number
             was
             not
             at
             all
             times
             alike
             ,
             but
             sometimes
             more
             ,
             and
             sometimes
             lesse
             ;
             as
             in
             the
             Sea
             it
             is
             not
             alwayes
             full
             tyde
             ,
             but
             sometimes
             low
             ebbe
             ,
             nor
             is
             the
             Moone
             alwayes
             at
             full
             ,
             but
             sometimes
             at
             the
             Change
             ;
             Nay
             if
             the
             Apostles
             practise
             must
             be
             our
             rule
             ,
             then
             inasmuch
             as
             their
             Churches
             ,
             had
             not
             alwayes
             the
             like
             numbers
             of
             members
             in
             them
             ,
             but
             sometimes
             the
             number
             was
             greater
             ,
             and
             sometimes
             lesser
             ,
             it
             will
             follow
             therefore
             that
             the
             number
             of
             members
             in
             our
             Churches
             needs
             not
             alwayes
             to
             bee
             the
             same
             ,
             but
             though
             greater
             numbers
             be
             lawfull
             ,
             yet
             the
             lawfulnesse
             of
             lesser
             numbers
             may
             not
             be
             denyed
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XIV
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Corinth
             was
             one
             Church
             ,
             meeting
             distributively
             in
             sundry
             Congregations
             ,
             or
             whether
             it
             was
             onely
             one
             Congregation
             .
             And
             whether
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             23.
             
             If
             the
             whole
             Church
             came
             together
             in
             some
             place
             &c.
             
             Doe
             make
             for
             sundry
             Congregations
             or
             for
             one
             onely
             .
          
           
             PAge
             464.
             
             I
             cannot
             but
             thinke
             that
             weake
             which
             Mr.
             Mather
             and
             Mr.
             Tompson
             say
             (
             Answer
             Page
             37.
             )
             the
             place
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             23.
             
             That
             speaketh
             of
             the
             whole
             Church
             comming
             together
             to
             one
             place
             doth
             unavoidably
             prove
             ,
             that
             Corinth
             had
             their
             meetings
             and
             not
             by
             way
             of
             distribution
             into
             severall
             Congregations
             ,
             but
             altogether
             in
             one
             Congregation
             :
             and
             it
             is
             plaine
             ,
             that
             though
             they
             had
             variety
             of
             teachers
             and
             Prophets
             ,
             yet
             they
             all
             used
             to
             come
             together
             to
             one
             place
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             that
             which
             wee
             say
             be
             weake
             ,
             it
             is
             more
             easie
             for
             one
             of
             such
             ability
             and
             strength
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             to
             overthrow
             the
             same
             .
             Yet
             it
             is
             not
             words
             that
             will
             suffice
             ,
             but
             weight
             of
             reason
             that
             must
             availe
             thereto
             .
             Let
             us
             heare
             therefore
             his
             Answer
             to
             this
             passage
             which
             he
             thinkes
             and
             censures
             to
             be
             so
             weake
             .
          
           
           
             The
             place
             saith
             he
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             23.
             
             If
             the
             whole
             Church
             come
             together
             &c.
             
             Deth
             evince
             the
             contrary
             .
             For
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             there
             reason
             
               ab
               absurdo
            
             ,
             from
             a
             great
             incongruity
             :
             it
             were
             incongruous
             saith
             he
             ,
             and
             ridiculous
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             of
             Corinth
             and
             all
             their
             guifted
             men
             speaking
             with
             Tongues
             (
             so
             that
             they
             could
             not
             be
             understood
             by
             Infidels
             )
             should
             all
             Convene
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             and
             speake
             with
             divers
             Tongues
             :
             For
             the
             unlearned
             and
             unbeleevers
             would
             say
             they
             were
             madde
             ;
             therefore
             hee
             presupposeth
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             should
             not
             all
             come
             to
             one
             place
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             should
             so
             come
             to
             one
             place
             ,
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             .
             —
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             is
             it
             true
             indeed
             ,
             that
             this
             place
             doth
             evince
             the
             contrary
             ?
             viz.
             That
             the
             Church
             at
             Corinth
             did
             not
             all
             meet
             in
             one
             Congregation
             :
             How
             shall
             we
             be
             assured
             that
             such
             a
             thing
             is
             evinced
             by
             the
             place
             ?
             For
             as
             for
             the
             reason
             given
             ,
             &c.
             
             That
             the
             Apostle
             d●th
             there
             reason
             
               ab
               absurdo
            
             ,
             or
             from
             great
             incongruity
             ,
             this
             doth
             not
             prove
             the
             thing
             at
             all
             ,
             partly
             because
             they
             might
             practise
             something
             that
             were
             not
             meete
             but
             had
             incongruity
             in
             it
             ,
             and
             partly
             (
             and
             more
             especially
             )
             because
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             not
             lay
             the
             absurdity
             where
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             layes
             it
             ,
             viz.
             In
             the
             convening
             of
             the
             whole
             Church
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             but
             in
             their
             speaking
             with
             strange
             Tongues
             when
             they
             were
             convened
             and
             come
             together
             .
          
           
             Touching
             the
             former
             of
             these
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             reasoneth
             to
             this
             effect
             .
             If
             it
             were
             an
             incongruous
             or
             un●it
             thing
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             at
             Corinth
             should
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             then
             they
             did
             not
             so
             come
             together
             :
             but
             the
             first
             is
             true
             ,
             Ergo
             the
             second
             is
             true
             also
             .
             In
             which
             kind
             of
             reasoning
             (
             such
             is
             our
             weaknesse
             )
             we
             thinke
             neither
             part
             of
             the
             argument
             to
             be
             free
             from
             just
             exception
             .
             For
             as
             we
             wholly
             deny
             the
             Assumption
             ,
             so
             we
             also
             thinke
             there
             is
             no
             sufficient
             strength
             of
             consequence
             in
             the
             maine
             Proposition
             ,
             forasmuch
             as
             sundry
             things
             were
             practised
             in
             that
             Church
             which
             were
             no
             wayes
             fit
             not
             meet
             to
             be
             practised
             ,
             and
             which
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             therefore
             reprove
             ,
             and
             seekes
             the
             redresse
             of
             the
             same
             :
             witnesse
             their
             Factions
             and
             divisions
             :
             Chap.
             1.
             
             &
             3.
             
             Their
             neglecting
             Church
             censures
             against
             the
             incestuous
             person
             ,
             and
             on
             the
             contrary
             being
             puffed
             up
             ,
             Chap.
             5.
             their
             going
             to
             Law
             one
             with
             another
             before
             the
             Infidels
             ,
             Chap.
             6.
             their
             abuses
             in
             Prayer
             and
             Prophesying
             ,
             their
             women
             uncovered
             and
             their
             men
             covered
             ,
             Chap.
             11.
             their
             abuses
             in
             the
             Lords
             Supper
             ,
             when
             they
             so
             came
             unto
             it
             that
             one
             was
             hungry
             and
             another
             drunken
             ,
             Chap.
             11.
             
             Now
             as
             it
             were
             an
             unsufficient
             kind
             of
             arguing
             to
             say
             ,
             these
             things
             were
             unfit
             and
             unmeet
             ,
             and
             therefore
             that
             Church
             did
             not
             so
             practise
             ,
             even
             so
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             arguing
             seemes
             to
             be
             no
             better
             ,
             who
             would
             prove
             they
             did
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             because
             the
             Apostle
             ,
             as
             he
             thinks
             ,
             did
             count
             such
             comming
             together
             unmeet
             .
             For
             if
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             such
             a
             comming
             had
             been
             unmeet
             ,
             yet
             it
             doth
             not
             follow
             ,
             but
             such
             might
             bee
             their
             practise
             notwithstanding
             :
             and
             therefore
             as
             hee
             counts
             our
             apprehension
             in
             this
             matter
             to
             be
             weak
             ,
             so
             I
             leave
             it
             to
             himself
             and
             others
             to
             consider
             ,
             whether
             in
             this
             consequence
             ,
             It
             was
             not
             meet
             they
             should
             all
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             Ergo
             they
             did
             it
             not
             ,
             be
             very
             strong
             .
          
           
             I
             desire
             here
             not
             to
             be
             mistaken
             :
             for
             I
             do
             not
             grant
             that
             their
             comming
             together
             in
             one
             place
             was
             unmeet
             ,
             nor
             that
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             reprove
             them
             for
             the
             same
             ;
             I
             have
             
             already
             said
             the
             contrary
             ,
             in
             denying
             the
             Assumption
             afore
             mentioned
             ,
             which
             I
             do
             still
             deny
             .
             But
             the
             thing
             I
             intend
             ,
             is
             to
             consider
             the
             strength
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             reasoning
             ,
             and
             for
             that
             cause
             to
             apply
             it
             to
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             which
             I
             still
             desire
             to
             keepe
             close
             unto
             ,
             if
             it
             may
             be
             .
             Now
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             being
             this
             ,
             whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Corinth
             ,
             were
             so
             many
             at
             that
             they
             could
             nor
             meet
             together
             in
             one
             Assembly
             ,
             but
             had
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             all
             but
             one
             Church
             ,
             and
             Mr
             Rutherford
             maintaining
             the
             affirmative
             ,
             and
             bringing
             this
             reason
             for
             it
             ,
             taken
             from
             the
             Congruity
             of
             meeting
             all
             together
             ,
             I
             therefore
             thought
             meet
             ,
             to
             weigh
             the
             strength
             of
             this
             reason
             ,
             which
             I
             do
             not
             perceive
             to
             be
             in
             any
             wise
             convincing
             :
             but
             supposing
             the
             Apostle
             had
             counted
             such
             meetings
             ,
             inconvenient
             and
             unmeet
             ,
             yet
             this
             reason
             as
             I
             conceive
             ,
             is
             too
             weak
             to
             prove
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             purpose
             ,
             that
             their
             number
             was
             such
             as
             that
             they
             could
             not
             all
             possibly
             meet
             in
             one
             place
             ;
             for
             they
             might
             possibly
             do
             that
             which
             were
             unmeet
             to
             be
             done
             ,
             in
             this
             particular
             as
             well
             as
             they
             did
             in
             many
             other
             things
             .
          
           
             But
             in
             this
             particular
             I
             do
             not
             thinke
             ,
             they
             did
             any
             thing
             absurd
             ,
             or
             unmeet
             at
             all
             ;
             and
             therefore
             for
             further
             answer
             to
             this
             reason
             I
             would
             say
             :
             that
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             not
             say
             the
             absurdity
             ,
             where
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             layes
             it
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             in
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             did
             convene
             ,
             and
             come
             together
             ,
             but
             in
             speaking
             with
             strange
             Tongues
             when
             they
             were
             convened
             ,
             this
             latter
             being
             incongruous
             :
             and
             absurd
             indeed
             ;
             for
             the
             Infidels
             comming
             into
             the
             Church
             Assembly
             ,
             and
             hearing
             them
             so
             speake
             ,
             might
             thinke
             them
             madde
             ,
             as
             the
             Apostle
             sayes
             ;
             but
             for
             assembling
             all
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             madnesse
             that
             was
             in
             that
             ;
             nor
             shew
             thereof
             ;
             nor
             do
             I
             yet
             beleeve
             that
             the
             Apostle
             doth
             place
             the
             absurdity
             there
             .
             For
             though
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             bee
             a
             worthy
             man
             and
             learned
             ,
             yet
             such
             a
             thing
             as
             this
             had
             need
             of
             some
             further
             proofe
             then
             his
             bare
             word
             .
             If
             a
             Church
             should
             meet
             distributively
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             ,
             and
             being
             so
             met
             should
             speake
             with
             strange
             Tongues
             ,
             I
             demand
             whether
             this
             manner
             of
             speaking
             ,
             do
             prove
             such
             a
             way
             of
             meeting
             absurd
             ;
             I
             suppose
             he
             will
             say
             no
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             the
             way
             of
             meeting
             which
             he
             holds
             the
             Apostolike
             Churches
             did
             use
             ;
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             suppose
             they
             should
             so
             speake
             with
             strange
             Tongues
             ,
             when
             they
             meet
             collectively
             all
             in
             one
             Assembly
             ,
             how
             can
             this
             manner
             of
             speaking
             conclude
             the
             absurdity
             of
             such
             kind
             of
             meeting
             any
             more
             then
             it
             did
             in
             the
             other
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             ,
             though
             such
             kind
             of
             speaking
             have
             incongruity
             and
             inconveniency
             in
             it
             ,
             yet
             I
             conceive
             assembling
             collectively
             and
             in
             one
             Congregation
             is
             no
             more
             prejudiced
             thereby
             ,
             then
             assembling
             distributively
             in
             many
             .
          
           
             Hee
             (
             that
             is
             the
             Apostle
             )
             presupposeth
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             should
             come
             to
             one
             place
             ,
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             ,
             and
             all
             Prophecy
             in
             a
             Tongue
             known
             to
             the
             Infidels
             ,
             as
             the
             unbeleever
             being
             convinced
             and
             judged
             of
             all
             the
             Prophets
             might
             fall
             down
             in
             his
             face
             ,
             &c.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             the
             Prophets
             were
             met
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             at
             once
             ,
             I
             marvell
             how
             the
             unbeleever
             should
             be
             convinced
             and
             judged
             of
             them
             all
             ;
             for
             I
             hope
             one
             singular
             and
             individuall
             unbeleever
             was
             not
             present
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             at
             once
             ,
             nor
             convinced
             and
             judged
             (
             as
             here
             he
             is
             said
             to
             be
             )
             by
             those
             Prophets
             ,
             from
             whose
             Assembly
             he
             was
             absent
             .
             Eithe●
             therefore
             the
             Prophets
             were
             all
             met
             in
             one
             Assembly
             and
             not
             in
             divers
             ,
             or
             else
             it
             is
             yet
             a
             Quaere
             how
             he
             could
             be
             convinced
             by
             them
             all
             .
             For
             sure
             the
             unbeleever
             could
             not
             be
             present
             in
             sundry
             Assemblies
             at
             once
             .
          
           
           
             Page
             465.
             
             The
             whole
             Church
             is
             not
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             of
             Corinth
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             that
             did
             ordinarily
             meet
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             the
             Text
             saith
             no
             such
             thing
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             to
             be
             proved
             and
             not
             taken
             as
             granted
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Suppose
             it
             were
             true
             ,
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             was
             not
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             of
             Corinth
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             this
             doth
             nothing
             prejudice
             our
             cause
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             our
             Question
             is
             not
             about
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             but
             about
             the
             whole
             Church
             .
             If
             therefore
             it
             be
             granted
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             collectively
             did
             come
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             we
             have
             what
             we
             desire
             ,
             and
             require
             no
             more
             .
             As
             for
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             whether
             this
             be
             the
             same
             with
             the
             former
             or
             no
             ,
             wee
             shall
             have
             no
             need
             to
             prove
             or
             take
             for
             granted
             that
             these
             did
             in
             like
             manner
             come
             together
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             our
             question
             in
             the
             termes
             of
             it
             is
             not
             about
             these
             ,
             but
             about
             the
             other
             .
          
           
             But
             why
             is
             not
             the
             whole
             Church
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ?
             Shall
             we
             say
             the
             whole
             Church
             is
             more
             then
             the
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ?
             Or
             shall
             wee
             say
             it
             is
             not
             so
             much
             ?
             I
             conceive
             it
             must
             be
             one
             of
             these
             ,
             or
             else
             it
             must
             be
             the
             same
             .
             If
             it
             be
             said
             it
             is
             more
             ,
             then
             still
             we
             have
             our
             desire
             ,
             if
             not
             more
             then
             we
             demand
             .
             For
             if
             a
             company
             that
             is
             greater
             then
             all
             the
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             were
             neverthelesse
             not
             so
             great
             ,
             but
             they
             might
             and
             did
             assemble
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             then
             that
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             might
             so
             assemble
             much
             more
             .
             For
             if
             there
             be
             no
             impossibility
             but
             a
             company
             that
             is
             greater
             may
             so
             assemble
             ,
             I
             suppose
             the
             same
             cannot
             bee
             denyed
             of
             a
             company
             that
             is
             lesser
             .
             Againe
             ,
             to
             say
             this
             whole
             Church
             was
             a
             greater
             number
             then
             the
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ,
             is
             directly
             to
             gainsay
             himselfe
             ,
             who
             in
             Page
             460
             ,
             461.
             
             
               Makes
               the
               much
               people
               a
               greater
               number
               then
               the
               Congregation
               meeting
               for
               the
               Word
               ,
               Sacraments
               ,
               and
               Church
               censures
               ;
               because
               such
               a
               Congregation
               ,
               he
               saith
               ,
               could
               not
               conveniently
               exceed
               one
               thousand
               ,
               whereas
               the
               much
               people
               must
               bee
               much
               in
               comparison
               of
               thousands
               of
               Jewes
               who
               rejected
               Christ
               ,
               for
               that
               otherwise
               it
               would
               not
               have
               beene
               much
               for
            
             Pauls
             
               comfort
               ,
               for
               which
               end
               it
               is
               mentioned
               and
               brought
               .
            
          
           
             
               If
               it
               be
               said
               the
               whole
               Church
               be
               lesse
               then
               the
               people
               that
               beleeved
               ,
               then
               it
               followes
               that
               some
               of
               those
               beleevers
               were
               not
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
               and
               so
               what
               himselfe
               hath
               written
               ,
               Page
               125.
               242.
               251.
               will
               not
               stand
               .
               For
               in
               Page
               125
               ,
               hee
               saith
               ,
            
             That
             the
             Seale
             of
             Baptisme
             and
             the
             profession
             of
             the
             truth
             is
             that
             which
             makes
             one
             member
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             —
             and
             by
             this
             are
             all
             the
             Citizens
             and
             domesticks
             in-Churched
             ,
             and
             received
             into
             a
             visible
             Church
             .
             And
             Page
             242.
             
             He
             saith
             any
             who
             blamelessely
             professe
             Christ
             is
             Ecclesiastically
             —
             
               in
               foro
               Ecclesiae
            
             ,
             a
             true
             and
             valid
             member
             of
             the
             Church
             visible
             ,
             having
             Ecclesiasticall
             power
             valid
             for
             that
             effect
             ,
             and
             Page
             251.
             he
             saith
             ,
             a
             visible
             profession
             of
             the
             truth
             and
             Doctrine
             of
             golinesse
             is
             that
             which
             essentially
             constituteth
             a
             visible
             Church
             and
             every
             member
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             .
             
               Now
               if
               these
               things
               be
               so
               ,
               then
               it
               followes
               that
               this
               whole
               people
               
               that
               beleeved
               were
               all
               of
               them
               members
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
               inasmuch
               as
               they
               were
               all
               partakers
               of
               Baptisme
               and
               profession
               ,
               which
               he
               saith
               do
               essentially
               constitute
               the
               visible
               Church
               and
               every
               member
               thereof
               .
               And
               they
               were
               all
               members
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
               then
               the
               Church
               was
               not
               a
               lesser
               company
               then
               they
               .
            
          
           
             Nor
             can
             hee
             say
             it
             was
             a
             greater
             company
             ,
             for
             the
             reasons
             mentioned
             before
             .
          
           
             And
             if
             it
             was
             neither
             a
             greater
             company
             nor
             a
             lesser
             ,
             was
             it
             not
             then
             the
             same
             .
             And
             if
             it
             was
             the
             same
             ,
             then
             how
             can
             this
             stand
             which
             he
             affirmeth
             in
             the
             place
             wee
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             where
             hee
             saith
             the
             whole
             Church
             is
             not
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             ?
             It
             seemes
             to
             me
             ,
             that
             which
             way
             soever
             he
             shall
             take
             ,
             his
             own
             pen
             will
             be
             witnesse
             against
             himselfe
             ;
             for
             in
             the
             place
             wee
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             hee
             saith
             the
             whole
             Church
             is
             not
             the
             whole
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             :
             and
             in
             another
             place
             hee
             tels
             us
             ,
             that
             the
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             was
             a
             greater
             number
             then
             the
             whole
             Church
             meeting
             for
             Word
             ,
             Sacraments
             ,
             &c.
             
             And
             yet
             in
             a
             third
             place
             hee
             tels
             us
             ,
             that
             in
             effect
             it
             was
             not
             greater
             ,
             inasmuch
             as
             all
             Baptized
             professing
             beleevers
             ,
             hee
             saith
             ,
             are
             of
             the
             Church
             .
          
           
             Further
             ,
             when
             the
             Text
             speakes
             of
             the
             whole
             Church
             comming
             together
             in
             some
             place
             ,
             let
             the
             wise
             judge
             whether
             it
             be
             a
             good
             Exposition
             to
             say
             ,
             by
             the
             whole
             is
             not
             meant
             the
             whole
             ,
             but
             only
             a
             part
             .
             Which
             I
             conceive
             is
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             Exposition
             ,
             who
             will
             not
             yeeld
             that
             the
             whole
             did
             come
             together
             in
             any
             one
             place
             ,
             but
             part
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             and
             part
             in
             another
             ,
             the
             whole
             being
             distributed
             into
             severall
             parts
             ,
             and
             those
             parts
             into
             severall
             places
             .
             So
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             comming
             together
             into
             some
             place
             ,
             must
             have
             this
             meaning
             ,
             the
             whole
             came
             not
             together
             in
             any
             place
             ,
             but
             part
             in
             one
             place
             and
             part
             in
             another
             ,
             which
             I
             feare
             is
             too
             much
             violence
             offered
             to
             the
             Sacred
             Text
             ,
             which
             should
             be
             handled
             with
             reverence
             .
          
           
             
               But
               he
               brings
               a
               reason
               for
               this
               Exposition
               ,
               and
               that
               is
               this
               ,
            
             Because
             else
             we
             must
             say
             that
             at
             any
             one
             Assembly
             all
             the
             Prophets
             and
             teachers
             did
             Prophesy
             at
             Corinth
             ;
             for
             the
             Text
             saith
             ,
             he
             is
             convinced
             of
             all
             ,
             he
             is
             judged
             of
             all
             ,
             whereas
             the
             consequence
             should
             bee
             absurd
             ,
             it
             should
             bee
             a
             longsome
             and
             wearisome
             meeting
             ,
             Page
             465.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             if
             they
             Prophesyed
             not
             all
             in
             one
             Assem●ly
             but
             divers
             ,
             how
             could
             the
             unbeleever
             bee
             convinced
             and
             judged
             by
             them
             all
             ?
             It
             will
             not
             bee
             easie
             to
             conceive
             how
             it
             could
             be
             ,
             they
             Prophesying
             in
             such
             a
             way
             :
             for
             the
             unbeleever
             sure
             could
             not
             be
             present
             in
             sundry
             Assemblyes
             at
             once
             ,
             but
             in
             one
             onely
             .
             And
             therefore
             ,
             those
             words
             ,
             he
             is
             convinced
             of
             all
             ,
             he
             is
             judged
             of
             all
             ,
             will
             lay
             as
             much
             absurdity
             upon
             his
             Exposition
             of
             the
             words
             as
             upon
             ours
             ,
             or
             rather
             a
             great
             deale
             more
             .
             For
             as
             for
             ours
             ,
             there
             is
             no
             absurdity
             therein
             at
             all
             ,
             for
             asmuch
             as
             by
             all
             the
             Prophets
             is
             meant
             all
             that
             Prophesied
             at
             the
             time
             ,
             when
             the
             unbeleever
             was
             present
             ,
             and
             not
             that
             all
             must
             Prophesy
             upon
             one
             day
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             have
             it
             .
             But
             the
             Text
             doth
             not
             so
             say
             ,
             nor
             any
             Interpreter
             that
             I
             have
             met
             withall
             .
             Sure
             I
             am
             Beza
             saith
             ,
             the
             expresse
             contrary
             ,
             for
             upon
             
               verse
               31.
               
               Ye
               may
               all
               Prophesy
               one
               by
               one
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             He
             hath
             this
             note
             ,
             
               Non
               eodem
               sane
               die
               ,
               sed
               ternis
               &c.
               
            
             That
             is
             indeed
             not
             all
             upon
             one
             day
             (
             which
             is
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             Exposition
             )
             but
             three
             at
             every
             moeing
             ,
             having
             their
             turne
             to
             speak
             till
             all
             had
             spoken
             by
             course
             .
          
           
           
             Interpreters
             say
             they
             met
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             ,
             Page
             465.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Let
             those
             Interpreters
             be
             named
             ;
             and
             there
             words
             set
             down
             ,
             and
             then
             by
             Gods
             help
             we
             shall
             consider
             of
             what
             they
             say
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             grounds
             and
             reasons
             thereof
             ▪
             in
             the
             meane
             time
             to
             say
             that
             interpreters
             say
             it
             ,
             and
             yet
             neither
             to
             tell
             us
             the
             reasons
             nor
             the
             words
             of
             those
             Interpreters
             ,
             nor
             so
             much
             as
             the
             names
             of
             any
             of
             them
             ,
             how
             should
             this
             prevaile
             with
             us
             to
             turne
             us
             away
             from
             our
             former
             apprehensions
             in
             the
             point
             ?
          
           
             True
             it
             is
             in
             another
             place
             ,
             &c.
             Pag
             461.
             
             Speaking
             of
             verse
             31.
             
             Yea
             may
             all
             Prophesy
             one
             by
             one
             ,
             hee
             there
             tels
             us
             that
             Diodatus
             understands
             it
             that
             they
             might
             Prophecy
             ,
             by
             course
             and
             in
             divers
             or
             sundry
             Assemblies
             ;
             And
             Essius
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             saith
             the
             same
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             these
             Prophets
             were
             to
             Prophesy
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             For
             Diodatus
             I
             have
             him
             not
             at
             hand
             ,
             and
             therefore
             I
             cannot
             peruse
             the
             place
             ;
             But
             for
             Estius
             ,
             this
             I
             may
             say
             ,
             that
             he
             neither
             saith
             what
             here
             is
             reported
             in
             his
             Commentary
             upon
             the
             verse
             alledged
             ,
             nor
             upon
             any
             verse
             else
             in
             all
             the
             Chapter
             ,
             as
             farre
             as
             I
             can
             observe
             ,
             and
             I
             have
             read
             and
             perused
             him
             on
             purpose
             to
             see
             what
             were
             to
             be
             found
             in
             him
             :
             But
             though
             I
             cannot
             find
             him
             affirming
             that
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             brings
             him
             for
             ,
             yet
             I
             find
             sundry
             places
             ,
             wherein
             he
             seemes
             to
             me
             to
             affirme
             the
             contrary
             ;
             for
             instance
             ,
             Commenting
             upon
             the
             verse
             alledged
             ,
             hee
             hath
             these
             words
             as
             the
             sence
             which
             he
             most
             preferres
             ,
             
               viz.
               Quod
               si
               non
               unus
               tantum
               Propheta
               sed
               plures
               &c.
               
               That
               is
               ,
               If
               not
               only
               one
               Prophet
               but
               sundry
               ,
               yea
               all
               do
               speake
               in
               the
               Assembly
               in
               order
               ,
               it
               will
               come
               to
               passe
               that
               those
               all
               may
               also
               learne
               ,
               and
               receive
               exhortation
               ,
               there
               being
               never
               a
               one
               of
               them
               ,
               who
               is
               not
               also
               a
               hearer
               .
            
             Wherein
             we
             see
             he
             speaks
             not
             one
             word
             of
             Prophesying
             in
             divers
             Assemblies
             at
             the
             same
             time
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             were
             so
             to
             Prophesy
             that
             all
             of
             them
             were
             to
             be
             hearers
             ,
             and
             learners
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             speakers
             .
             Which
             doth
             plainly
             imply
             ,
             that
             there
             must
             be
             many
             Prophets
             in
             one
             Assembly
             at
             once
             .
             Againe
             ,
             upon
             verse
             ●9
             ,
             he
             hath
             these
             words
             as
             the
             sense
             of
             the
             place
             ,
             
               Quamvis
               forte
               multi
               suit
               in
               Ecclesiae
               —
               vestra
               Prophetae
               &c.
               
               That
               is
               ,
               Although
               perhaps
               there
               be
               many
               Prophets
               in
               your
               Church
               ,
               yet
               it
               will
               be
               sufficient
               if
               two
               or
               three
               do
               speake
               at
               one
               meeting
               ,
               and
               for
               others
               it
               shall
               be
               their
               duty
               to
               judge
               ,
               that
               is
               to
               say
               ,
               to
               examine
               and
               try
               whether
               these
               things
               be
               true
               and
               sound
               which
               are
               spoken
               by
               them
               that
               speake
               .
            
             Wherein
             he
             plainly
             shewes
             his
             judgement
             to
             be
             that
             at
             one
             meeting
             they
             were
             to
             have
             many
             Prophets
             present
             ,
             of
             whom
             two
             or
             three
             onely
             were
             to
             speake
             ,
             and
             the
             rest
             to
             try
             and
             examine
             what
             was
             spoken
             .
             And
             to
             the
             same
             purpose
             he
             speakes
             upon
             verse
             32.
             
             Which
             he
             counts
             to
             be
             the
             same
             with
             that
             of
             judging
             ,
             verse
             29.
             
             Further
             these
             words
             verse
             23.
             
             Of
             the
             whole
             Church
             comming
             together
             into
             one
             place
             ,
             he
             expounds
             thus
             ,
             
               Alicujus
               loci
               totus
               populus
               fidelis
            
             ,
             That
             is
             ,
             all
             the
             faithfull
             or
             beleeving
             people
             of
             a
             place
             ;
             which
             is
             contrary
             to
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             who
             will
             not
             have
             the
             whole
             Church
             ,
             to
             be
             the
             whole
             
             much
             people
             that
             beleeved
             .
             Finally
             ,
             speaking
             of
             those
             words
             verse
             24.
             if
             all
             Prophesy
             ,
             he
             hath
             these
             words
             ,
             
               Nec
               omnes
               inteligit
               absoluté
               ,
               &c.
               
               That
               is
               ,
               the
               Apostle
               understands
               not
               all
               absolutely
               but
               to
               this
               sense
               ,
               to
               wit
               ,
               if
               all
               that
               speake
               in
               the
               Assembly
               of
               the
               Church
               do
               Prophesy
               ,
               that
               is
               ,
               if
               Prophets
               only
               do
               speake
               ,
               and
               they
               that
               have
               the
               gift
               of
               Tongues
               do
               hold
               their
               peace
               .
            
             Which
             is
             contrary
             to
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             who
             understands
             the
             Text
             so
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             all
             to
             Prophesie
             at
             one
             time
             ;
             and
             because
             at
             one
             meeting
             there
             were
             but
             two
             or
             three
             to
             Prophesie
             ,
             which
             two
             or
             three
             hee
             thinkes
             could
             not
             be
             all
             ,
             hee
             will
             therefore
             have
             it
             that
             they
             were
             distributed
             into
             severall
             Assemblies
             ,
             and
             so
             did
             Prophesie
             all
             at
             once
             ,
             though
             onely
             two
             or
             three
             at
             one
             meeting
             .
             For
             which
             interpretation
             ,
             though
             he
             alledgeth
             Estius
             ,
             yet
             Estius
             wee
             see
             affords
             him
             no
             help
             at
             all
             .
             Whereupon
             I
             have
             marvelled
             why
             Estius
             should
             be
             alledged
             ,
             sometimes
             thinking
             with
             my selfe
             whether
             his
             name
             might
             not
             bee
             mis-Printed
             by
             the
             Printer
             ,
             instead
             of
             some
             other
             man
             ;
             sometimes
             thinking
             whether
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             memory
             might
             not
             faile
             him
             in
             this
             particular
             ,
             having
             read
             the
             thing
             in
             some
             other
             Author
             ,
             and
             supposing
             it
             had
             been
             in
             Estius
             .
             But
             what
             ever
             might
             be
             the
             reason
             of
             this
             mistake
             ,
             he
             that
             shall
             examine
             Estius
             will
             not
             find
             in
             him
             any
             help
             at
             all
             for
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             cause
             in
             this
             particular
             ,
             but
             the
             contrary
             .
          
           
             The
             Text
             saith
             expresly
             ,
             verse
             29
             ,
             that
             at
             one
             time
             they
             Prophesied
             but
             two
             or
             three
             .
          
           
             Answer
             .
             This
             is
             a
             mistake
             also
             :
             for
             the
             words
             are
             ,
             let
             the
             Prophets
             speake
             two
             or
             three
             ,
             and
             let
             the
             other
             judge
             .
             Now
             let
             them
             do
             so
             ,
             doth
             not
             shew
             their
             practise
             ,
             but
             their
             duty
             :
             not
             what
             they
             did
             ,
             but
             what
             they
             should
             have
             done
             .
             The
             Text
             saith
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             no
             interpreter
             let
             him
             that
             hath
             an
             unknown
             Tongue
             keepe
             silence
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             verse
             20.
             
             And
             let
             your
             Women
             keepe
             silence
             in
             the
             Churches
             ,
             verse
             34.
             
             Now
             shall
             any
             man
             say
             ,
             that
             these
             Texts
             do
             expresly
             prove
             that
             it
             was
             the
             manner
             of
             their
             Women
             and
             of
             their
             men
             that
             had
             unknown
             Tongues
             to
             keepe
             silence
             .
             I
             suppose
             no
             man
             can
             say
             it
             ,
             the
             words
             being
             not
             a
             report
             of
             what
             their
             practise
             was
             ,
             but
             a
             rule
             of
             direction
             to
             shew
             them
             how
             they
             ought
             to
             practise
             .
             And
             so
             wee
             say
             of
             the
             case
             in
             hand
             .
             But
             let
             it
             be
             supposed
             that
             it
             was
             not
             onely
             their
             duty
             ,
             but
             also
             their
             practise
             to
             Prophesie
             at
             one
             meeting
             but
             onely
             two
             or
             three
             ,
             what
             can
             Master
             Rutherford
             gaine
             heereby
             ?
             His
             words
             following
             do
             tell
             us
             ,
             where
             hee
             saith
             ,
             
               If
               two
               onely
               Prophesyed
               at
               one
               Assembly
               ,
               as
               this
               Text
               will
               warrant
               cleerely
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Not
             so
             ,
             the
             Text
             allowes
             three
             ,
             which
             is
             more
             then
             two
             onely
             .
             But
             go
             on
             ,
             and
             let
             us
             heare
             the
             consequence
             .
          
           
             Then
             how
             doth
             this
             whole
             Church
             consisting
             of
             all
             the
             beleevers
             at
             Corinth
             ,
             as
             is
             supposed
             by
             our
             Brethren
             ,
             convince
             the
             Infidell
             ,
             so
             as
             it
             may
             beare
             this
             sence
             ,
             he
             is
             convinced
             of
             all
             ,
             he
             is
             judged
             of
             all
             ▪
             Can
             two
             Prophets
             be
             all
             Prophets
             ?
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Though
             wee
             suppose
             the
             whole
             Church
             consisted
             of
             all
             the
             Beleevers
             at
             
             Corinth
             ,
             yet
             that
             the
             whole
             Church
             did
             convince
             the
             the
             Infidell
             ,
             this
             wee
             never
             said
             nor
             supposed
             at
             all
             :
             For
             wee
             supposed
             and
             so
             do
             still
             ,
             that
             hee
             was
             to
             bee
             convinced
             onely
             by
             the
             Prophets
             ,
             besides
             whom
             there
             were
             many
             others
             that
             were
             of
             the
             Church
             .
          
           
             
               But
               for
               his
               demand
               ,
               Whether
               two
               Prophets
               can
               bee
               all
               Prophets
               ,
            
             The
             answer
             is
             ,
             that
             though
             two
             bee
             not
             all
             where
             there
             are
             more
             then
             two
             ,
             yet
             if
             there
             bee
             no
             more
             ,
             there
             it
             is
             otherwise
             ;
             and
             so
             where
             there
             are
             but
             two
             or
             three
             that
             doe
             Prophesie
             at
             one
             meeting
             ,
             there
             hee
             that
             is
             convinced
             by
             those
             two
             or
             three
             ,
             may
             bee
             said
             to
             bee
             convinced
             of
             all
             ,
             that
             is
             of
             all
             that
             doe
             Prophesie
             .
             This
             sence
             of
             the
             place
             must
             needs
             bee
             received
             ,
             else
             how
             shall
             the
             Apostles
             words
             bee
             reconciled
             and
             stand
             together
             ?
             For
             as
             in
             one
             verse
             hee
             requireth
             ,
             that
             the
             Prophets
             speake
             two
             or
             three
             at
             one
             meeting
             ,
             and
             the
             rest
             to
             Iudge
             ,
             verse
             29.
             
             And
             in
             another
             verse
             affirmeth
             that
             the
             Infidell
             in
             the
             case
             there
             proposed
             ,
             is
             judged
             of
             all
             ,
             verse
             24.
             
             So
             hee
             doth
             not
             onely
             suppose
             in
             the
             very
             same
             verse
             ,
             that
             they
             did
             all
             Prophesie
             ,
             if
             all
             ,
             Prophesie
             saith
             hee
             ,
             and
             there
             come
             in
             one
             that
             beleeveth
             not
             ,
             &c.
             
             But
             moreover
             in
             verse
             31.
             
             Hee
             expresly
             and
             plainely
             allowes
             them
             thus
             to
             Prophesie
             ;
             Yee
             may
             all
             Prophesie
             ,
             saith
             hee
             ,
             one
             by
             one
             ,
             that
             all
             may
             learne
             and
             all
             may
             bee
             comforted
             .
             Which
             places
             compared
             doe
             evince
             the
             sence
             of
             the
             words
             heere
             given
             ,
             and
             doe
             plainely
             shew
             that
             what
             hee
             saith
             verse
             24.
             
             Of
             the
             Infidell
             being
             convinced
             of
             all
             and
             judged
             of
             all
             ,
             may
             bee
             truely
             made
             good
             ,
             if
             hee
             bee
             convinced
             of
             all
             and
             Iudged
             of
             all
             that
             Prophesyed
             at
             that
             meeting
             ,
             though
             their
             number
             that
             so
             Prophesyed
             were
             no
             more
             but
             two
             or
             three
             .
          
           
             And
             therefore
             whereas
             hee
             concludes
             ,
             
               Surely
               for
               my
               part
               I
               thinke
               it
               must
               unavoidably
               bee
               said
               ,
               that
               they
               Prophesyed
               distributively
               and
               in
               severall
               Congregations
               ,
            
             The
             Answer
             is
             ,
             that
             this
             needs
             not
             to
             bee
             said
             at
             all
             ,
             but
             may
             bee
             avoided
             with
             ●ase
             ;
             and
             the
             contrary
             may
             bee
             safely
             held
             ;
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             they
             Pro●●●cied
             collectively
             and
             in
             one
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             For
             first
             ,
             they
             did
             so
             Prophesy
             ,
             that
             one
             that
             beleeved
             not
             ,
             and
             one
             unlearned
             might
             come
             in
             amongst
             them
             when
             they
             were
             Prophesying
             ,
             and
             by
             that
             meanes
             might
             bee
             convinced
             of
             all
             and
             judged
             of
             all
             ,
             verse
             24.
             
             Which
             might
             well
             bee
             done
             ,
             if
             they
             Prophesyed
             all
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             but
             otherwise
             it
             could
             not
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             one
             unbeleever
             could
             not
             bee
             present
             in
             severall
             Congregations
             at
             once
             .
          
           
             Secondly
             ,
             they
             were
             so
             to
             Prophesie
             ,
             that
             the
             Prophets
             when
             they
             Prophecied
             were
             to
             have
             the
             rest
             of
             the
             Prophets
             to
             bee
             〈◊〉
             ,
             to
             heare
             and
             Iudge
             of
             that
             which
             was
             delivered
             ,
             let
             the
             Prophets
             speake
             two
             or
             three
             ,
             and
             the
             rest
             judge
             ,
             verse
             29.
             and
             the
             spirits
             of
             the
             Prophets
             are
             subject
             to
             the
             Prophets
             ,
             verse
             32.
             
             The
             former
             of
             which
             sayings
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             himselfe
             doth
             understand
             of
             a
             Colledge
             Prophets
             ,
             having
             a
             power
             Dogmaticall
             of
             judging
             ,
             and
             censuring
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             the
             Prophets
             delivered
             .
             
               What
               they
               speake
               ,
               saith
               he
               ,
               Page
               467.
               
               Is
               to
               bee
               
               judged
               and
               put
               under
               censure
               ;
               for
               the
               whole
               Colledge
               must
               judge
               ;
               for
               which
               he
               alledgeth
               verse
               29.
               
               And
               a
               little
               after
               ,
               this
               is
               not
               a
               Power
               of
               judging
               which
               every
               Christian
               hath
               ,
               for
            
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             saith
             Piscator
             
               doth
               relate
               to
               the
               Prophets
               ,
               who
               are
               to
               judge
               ;
               but
               as
               ●
               take
               it
               a
               Propheticall
               judging
               ,
               which
               may
               warrant
               the
               Iuridicall
               power
               of
               a
               Presbytery
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             By
             all
             which
             it
             plainely
             appeareth
             that
             when
             the
             Prophets
             did
             Prophesy
             ,
             the
             other
             Prophets
             were
             to
             bee
             present
             ,
             to
             heare
             and
             judge
             of
             the
             Doctrines
             delivered
             ;
             and
             if
             so
             ,
             how
             can
             it
             bee
             that
             they
             Prophesyed
             in
             severall
             Congregations
             at
             the
             same
             time
             ?
             For
             had
             it
             been
             so
             ,
             they
             could
             not
             have
             judged
             of
             one
             anothers
             Doctrine
             ,
             which
             they
             could
             not
             heare
             ,
             being
             themselves
             at
             that
             time
             imployed
             in
             speaking
             in
             some
             other
             place
             .
          
           
             And
             therefore
             it
             seemes
             more
             likely
             ,
             that
             they
             met
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             where
             they
             might
             all
             Prophesy
             ,
             first
             one
             and
             then
             another
             ,
             some
             at
             one
             time
             and
             some
             at
             another
             ,
             and
             so
             all
             of
             them
             might
             also
             heare
             and
             learne
             ,
             and
             judge
             of
             the
             Doctrine
             delivered
             by
             others
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XV.
             
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Ephesus
             were
             more
             in
             number
             then
             Corinth
             and
             Jerusalem
             ,
             and
             the
             judgement
             of
             Mr.
             Baynes
             ;
             Whether
             that
             Church
             was
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             or
             one
             onely
             ?
          
           
             PAg
             .
             470.
             
             Having
             suggested
             sundry
             things
             ,
             to
             prove
             that
             Ephesus
             was
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             yet
             but
             one
             Church
             ;
             hee
             concludes
             this
             ,
             viz.
             upon
             these
             considerations
             ,
             I
             leave
             to
             our
             reverend
             Brethren
             their
             judgement
             ;
             if
             Mr.
             Mather
             and
             Mr.
             Thompson
             say
             right
             ,
             we
             doe
             not
             thinke
             they
             were
             more
             in
             number
             at
             Ephesus
             then
             in
             Corinth
             and
             Jerusalem
             ,
             where
             the
             Christians
             met
             all
             in
             one
             place
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             exception
             then
             which
             in
             this
             place
             is
             taken
             against
             Mr.
             Thompson
             and
             me
             ,
             is
             for
             this
             ,
             that
             we
             doe
             not
             thinke
             the
             Christians
             at
             Ephesus
             ,
             to
             be
             more
             in
             number
             then
             at
             Jerusalem
             and
             Corinth
             .
             Concerning
             which
             ,
             I
             will
             not
             say
             much
             ,
             but
             onely
             this
             ,
             that
             as
             we
             have
             onely
             delivered
             what
             we
             think
             in
             this
             matter
             ,
             without
             determining
             or
             asserting
             any
             thing
             peremptorily
             ;
             so
             we
             shall
             readily
             imbrace
             the
             contrary
             ,
             when
             good
             grounds
             shall
             be
             shewed
             for
             the
             same
             :
             which
             though
             we
             doe
             not
             yet
             perceive
             to
             be
             performed
             in
             all
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             said
             ;
             yet
             I
             will
             not
             here
             spend
             time
             in
             examining
             the
             same
             ,
             because
             I
             do
             not
             count
             this
             point
             of
             so
             much
             importance
             concerning
             the
             principall
             thing
             in
             question
             .
             For
             whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Ephesus
             were
             more
             in
             number
             then
             Corinth
             and
             Jerusalem
             ,
             or
             whether
             it
             were
             otherwise
             ;
             there
             is
             no
             great
             matter
             in
             this
             as
             touching
             the
             maine
             question
             .
             For
             if
             all
             of
             them
             were
             such
             Churches
             ,
             as
             might
             usually
             meet
             together
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             as
             I
             conceive
             they
             were
             ▪
             it
             matters
             not
             much
             which
             of
             them
             was
             most
             in
             number
             .
          
           
             But
             doth
             not
             M.
             Rutherford
             prove
             that
             the
             one
             Church
             at
             Ephesus
             was
             more
             then
             one
             Congregation
             ?
             I
             confesse
             ,
             he
             hath
             sundry
             things
             in
             the
             precedent
             pages
             ,
             which
             he
             intendeth
             that
             way
             .
             But
             in
             asmuch
             as
             they
             doe
             not
             concerne
             M.
             Tompson
             and
             me
             in
             particular
             ,
             nor
             are
             by
             him
             applyed
             against
             any
             passage
             in
             the
             answer
             ;
             I
             will
             therefore
             passe
             them
             over
             more
             briefly
             ,
             my
             purpose
             being
             chiefly
             ,
             to
             consider
             of
             such
             particulars
             ,
             wherein
             he
             takes
             exception
             against
             the
             Answer
             .
             Only
             ,
             thus
             much
             I
             would
             advertise
             the
             Reader
             ,
             that
             a
             good
             part
             of
             that
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherf
             .
             brings
             to
             prove
             many
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Church
             at
             Ephesus
             ,
             hath
             been
             answered
             long
             agoe
             by
             Mr.
             Baynes
             in
             his
             
               Diocesans
               triall
            
             ,
             pag.
             5.
             which
             I
             the
             rather
             Commend
             to
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             consideration
             ,
             because
             ,
             he
             counts
             him
             a
             man
             of
             worth
             ,
             calling
             him
             worthy
             Baynes
             :
             And
             for
             the
             help
             of
             such
             Readers
             ,
             as
             cannot
             readily
             come
             to
             the
             book
             it self
             ,
             I
             will
             here
             transcribe
             a
             few
             lines
             out
             of
             the
             same
             worthy
             Baynes
             ,
             as
             they
             are
             to
             be
             found
             in
             his
             
               Dioces
               .
               triall
            
             .
             p.
             5
             ,
             6.
             viz.
             
          
           
             The
             Church
             of
             Ephesus
             was
             but
             one
             flock
             ;
             First
             ,
             it
             is
             likely
             that
             it
             was
             of
             no
             other
             forme
             then
             the
             other
             .
             
               (
               Sir
            
             ,
             Ierusalem
             ,
             Antioch
             and
             Corinth
             ,
             
               which
               he
               had
               before
               shewed
               to
               be
               each
               of
               them
               one
               Congregation
               .
               )
            
             Secondly
             ,
             it
             was
             but
             one
             flock
             ,
             that
             which
             Presbyters
             might
             joyntly
             feed
             :
             they
             had
             no
             Diocesan
             Paster
             :
             If
             Presbyters
             onely
             ,
             then
             none
             but
             Parishonall
             Churches
             in
             and
             about
             Ephesus
             :
             theremay
             be
             many
             flocks
             ,
             but
             God
             ordained
             none
             
             but
             such
             as
             may
             wholely
             meet
             with
             those
             who
             have
             the
             care
             of
             feeding
             and
             governing
             of
             them
             :
             Peter
             indeed
             1
             Pet.
             5.
             2.
             calleth
             all
             those
             he
             writteth
             unto
             one
             flock
             ,
             but
             that
             is
             in
             regard
             either
             of
             the
             mysticall
             estate
             of
             the
             faithfull
             ,
             or
             in
             respect
             of
             the
             common
             nature
             ,
             which
             is
             in
             all
             Churches
             one
             and
             the
             same
             :
             but
             properly
             and
             in
             externall
             adunation
             ,
             one
             flock
             is
             but
             one
             Congregation
             .
             Thirdly
             ,
             Parishes
             according
             to
             the
             adverse
             opinion
             were
             not
             then
             divided
             :
             Neither
             doth
             the
             long
             and
             fruitfull
             labours
             of
             the
             Apostle
             argue
             that
             there
             should
             bee
             Parish
             Churches
             in
             Diocesan
             wise
             added
             ,
             but
             a
             great
             number
             of
             Sister
             Churches
             .
             But
             when
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             that
             all
             Asia
             did
             heare
             ,
             the
             meaning
             is
             that
             from
             hand
             to
             hand
             ,
             it
             did
             runne
             through
             Asia
             ;
             so
             as
             Churches
             were
             planted
             every
             where
             ,
             even
             where
             Paul
             came
             not
             ,
             as
             at
             Collosse
             :
             there
             might
             be
             many
             Churches
             in
             Asia
             ,
             and
             many
             converted
             by
             Peter
             ,
             and
             others
             fruitfull
             labours
             ,
             without
             subordination
             of
             Churches
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XVI
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             was
             onely
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             whether
             Acts
             14.
             27.
             and
             15.
             30.
             doe
             not
             prove
             the
             Affirmative
             .
          
           
             THE
             Answer
             ,
             having
             in
             pag.
             5.
             alledged
             Acts.
             14.
             27.
             and
             15.
             30
             ,
             31.
             to
             prove
             that
             the
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             was
             no
             more
             then
             might
             be
             gathered
             together
             into
             one
             place
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             in
             Answer
             hereto
             saith
             ,
             p.
             472
             ,
             473.
             
             
               That
               the
               place
            
             Acts
             14.
             27.
             
               is
               the
               representative
               Church
               ,
               and
               that
               he
               beleeveth
               the
               Assembling
               of
               the
               multitude
               ,
            
             Acts
             15.
             vers
             .
             30.
             
               must
               be
               taken
               distributively
            
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             answer
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             ,
             to
             the
             former
             place
             ,
             was
             removed
             long
             ago
             by
             worthy
             Mr.
             Baynes
             ,
             who
             also
             understands
             the
             latter
             place
             as
             we
             doe
             ,
             and
             not
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             :
             For
             in
             his
             
               Dioces
               .
               triall
            
             ,
             maintaining
             this
             position
             ,
             that
             the
             Churches
             instituted
             by
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             were
             onely
             such
             as
             might
             meet
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ordinarily
             ,
             and
             giving
             this
             very
             place
             and
             instance
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             ,
             for
             one
             of
             his
             grounds
             ,
             for
             confirming
             the
             said
             position
             ,
             p.
             5.
             
             Hee
             comes
             imediately
             thereupon
             to
             answer
             an
             objection
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             very
             same
             that
             here
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             brings
             to
             the
             former
             place
             ,
             viz.
             that
             the
             Church
             mentioned
             in
             that
             place
             ,
             was
             the
             Ministers
             or
             representative
             Church
             :
             for
             the
             removing
             whereof
             Mr.
             Baynes
             returneth
             4.
             things
             ,
             1.
             that
             the
             word
             Church
             ,
             is
             never
             so
             used
             :
             2.
             
             He
             argues
             by
             analogy
             from
             that
             Acts
             11.
             where
             Peter
             gives
             account
             before
             the
             whole
             Church
             ,
             even
             the
             Church
             of
             the
             faithfull
             ,
             and
             therefore
             in
             like
             sort
             ,
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             might
             report
             before
             the
             whole
             Church
             of
             the
             faithfull
             ,
             what
             things
             God
             had
             done
             by
             them
             .
             3.
             
             Saith
             he
             ,
             they
             made
             relation
             to
             that
             Church
             which
             had
             sent
             them
             forth
             ,
             with
             Prayer
             and
             Imposition
             of
             Hands
             ;
             and
             this
             Church
             stood
             of
             all
             those
             who
             assembled
             to
             the
             publicke
             service
             and
             worship
             of
             God
             ,
             (
             which
             is
             cleere
             ,
             
               Acts
               13.
               2.
            
             )
             4.
             
             His
             fourth
             particular
             is
             this
             other
             place
             of
             Acts
             15.
             vers
             .
             30.
             where
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             the
             people
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             were
             gathered
             together
             ,
             to
             consider
             of
             Decrees
             sent
             them
             by
             the
             Apostles
             from
             Ierusalem
             ,
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             .
             In
             all
             which
             ,
             we
             cleerly
             perceive
             the
             judgement
             of
             this
             worthy
             man
             to
             be
             the
             same
             with
             us
             ,
             and
             as
             clearly
             against
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             as
             can
             be
             expressed
             ,
             which
             being
             so
             ,
             and
             his
             judgement
             being
             delivered
             upon
             such
             reasons
             ,
             as
             seem
             to
             me
             weighty
             ,
             and
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             
             doth
             not
             remove
             ;
             I
             therefore
             see
             no
             sufficient
             reason
             to
             think
             otherwise
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Antioch
             then
             formerly
             .
          
           
             For
             as
             for
             M.
             Rutherford
             his
             reason
             to
             prove
             the
             place
             ,
             Acts
             14.
             27.
             to
             be
             meant
             of
             a
             representative
             Church
             ,
             
               viz.
               That
               they
               met
               for
               a
               matter
               of
               Discipline
               ,
               at
               least
               for
               a
               matter
               that
               concerned
               all
               the
               Churches
               ,
               to
               wit
               ,
               to
               know
               how
               God
               had
               opened
               the
               doore
               of
               saith
               unto
               the
               Gentiles
               :
            
             The
             answer
             is
             ,
             that
             this
             doth
             not
             evince
             the
             thing
             :
             1.
             
             Because
             rehearsing
             ,
             how
             God
             had
             opened
             the
             doore
             of
             Faith
             unto
             the
             Gentiles
             ,
             being
             neither
             admission
             of
             Members
             ,
             nor
             of
             Officers
             ,
             nor
             any
             matter
             of
             censure
             ,
             nor
             any
             thing
             else
             ;
             but
             onely
             a
             meer
             declaration
             of
             the
             gracious
             workings
             of
             the
             Lord
             ,
             cannot
             be
             any
             matter
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             as
             I
             conceive
             .
          
           
             2.
             
             Suppose
             it
             were
             a
             meeting
             for
             matter
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             be
             a
             meeting
             for
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             without
             the
             presence
             of
             the
             faithfull
             ?
             Will
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             deny
             it
             to
             be
             l●wfull
             for
             any
             to
             be
             present
             at
             matters
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             but
             onely
             the
             Elders
             ?
             I
             suppose
             he
             will
             not
             deny
             it
             at
             all
             ,
             sure
             I
             am
             he
             hath
             heretofore
             written
             otherwayes
             ;
             Peaceable
             Plea
             p.
             49.
             
             
               Where
               he
               granteth
               that
               all
               matters
               of
               Discipline
               must
               be
               done
               with
               the
               peoples
               consent
               ,
               and
               alledgeth
               about
               19.
               or
               20.
               
               Divines
               old
               and
               new
               for
               the
               same
               Tenet
               .
            
             Now
             if
             matters
             of
             Discipline
             must
             be
             done
             with
             the
             peoples
             consent
             ,
             then
             the
             people
             must
             be
             present
             thereat
             ;
             For
             else
             they
             give
             their
             consent
             blindefold
             .
             And
             if
             they
             must
             be
             present
             at
             such
             matters
             ;
             then
             suppose
             the
             matter
             mentioned
             in
             the
             Scripture
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             had
             been
             of
             that
             nature
             ,
             yet
             the
             Church
             that
             was
             gathered
             together
             about
             the
             same
             ,
             needed
             not
             to
             be
             a
             representative
             Church
             of
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             have
             it
             ,
             but
             might
             consist
             of
             the
             people
             also
             ,
             who
             by
             his
             own
             grant
             may
             be
             lawfully
             present
             at
             such
             matters
             .
          
           
             3.
             
             Be
             it
             a
             matter
             of
             Discipline
             ,
             or
             a
             matter
             that
             concerned
             all
             the
             Churches
             ,
             or
             what
             else
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             will
             have
             it
             ?
             It
             is
             plain
             that
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             when
             they
             were
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             did
             declare
             such
             matters
             as
             here
             they
             do
             declare
             at
             Antioch
             ,
             not
             onely
             to
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ,
             whom
             he
             perhaps
             would
             make
             a
             representative
             Church
             ,
             but
             also
             to
             a
             Church
             besides
             them
             ,
             I
             mean
             besides
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ;
             for
             so
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             Acts
             15.
             4.
             
             That
             at
             Ierus●lem
             they
             were
             received
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ,
             and
             declared
             all
             things
             that
             God
             had
             done
             with
             them
             :
             and
             vers
             .
             12.
             they
             declared
             to
             the
             multitude
             what
             miracles
             and
             wonders
             God
             had
             wrought
             among
             the
             Gentiles
             by
             them
             .
             Now
             if
             they
             declared
             these
             things
             at
             Ierusalem
             not
             onely
             to
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ,
             as
             to
             a
             representative
             Church
             ,
             but
             to
             the
             Church
             of
             the
             Faithfull
             also
             ,
             as
             the
             Text
             saith
             ,
             they
             did
             ,
             what
             reason
             can
             be
             rendred
             that
             the
             Church
             ,
             which
             was
             gathered
             together
             at
             Antioch
             ,
             should
             be
             onely
             a
             representative
             Church
             ?
             And
             that
             the
             people
             there
             were
             not
             present
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             ,
             I
             see
             no
             reason
             for
             it
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             might
             declare
             these
             things
             to
             the
             Brethren
             a●
             Antioch
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             to
             the
             Brethren
             at
             Ierusalem
             ;
             and
             as
             well
             to
             a
             representative
             Church
             at
             Ierusalem
             ,
             as
             to
             a
             representative
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             .
             And
             therefore
             sith
             it
             is
             apparent
             that
             at
             Ierusalem
             they
             declared
             these
             things
             to
             a
             Church
             ,
             which
             consisted
             of
             others
             besides
             Apostles
             and
             Elders
             ;
             the
             Church
             at
             Antioch
             to
             whom
             they
             declared
             the
             same
             things
             ,
             might
             be
             also
             a
             Church
             of
             the
             like
             kinde
             ,
             and
             not
             a
             representative
             Church
             ,
             as
             our
             Brother
             conceives
             it
             to
             be
             .
          
           
             4.
             
             The
             nature
             of
             the
             thing
             ,
             which
             they
             doe
             declare
             to
             this
             Church
             was
             such
             ,
             as
             that
             it
             was
             fit
             enough
             for
             the
             people
             to
             be
             acquainted
             therewith
             ;
             which
             the
             text
             mentions
             in
             two
             clauses
             ;
             first
             ,
             more
             generally
             ,
             all
             that
             God
             had
             done
             with
             them
             :
             Secondly
             ,
             
             more
             specially
             ,
             how
             he
             had
             opened
             the
             doore
             of
             Faith
             to
             the
             Gentiles
             .
             Now
             suppose
             the
             people
             had
             nothing
             to
             do
             in
             matters
             of
             Judicature
             by
             way
             of
             power
             therein
             ,
             yet
             to
             be
             informed
             of
             other
             peoples
             conversion
             ,
             and
             how
             God
             blessed
             the
             labors
             of
             the
             Apostles
             to
             that
             end
             ,
             which
             are
             the
             things
             they
             declared
             to
             this
             Church
             ,
             these
             are
             no
             such
             matters
             ,
             but
             the
             people
             may
             bee
             acquainted
             therewith
             for
             their
             comfort
             ,
             and
             that
             God
             might
             have
             praises
             from
             them
             all
             ;
             and
             therefore
             the
             Church
             to
             whom
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             declared
             these
             things
             ,
             needs
             not
             to
             be
             understood
             of
             the
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             but
             may
             well
             enough
             be
             a
             Church
             consisting
             also
             of
             ordinary
             Christians
             .
          
           
             5.
             
             Paul
             thought
             it
             not
             unmeet
             to
             make
             known
             to
             all
             the
             Corinthians
             the
             grace
             of
             God
             bestowed
             on
             the
             Churches
             of
             
               Macedonia
               ,
               2
               Cor.
            
             9.
             1
             ,
             2.
             and
             declareth
             to
             them
             of
             Macedonia
             ,
             the
             forwardnesse
             of
             the
             Corinthians
             in
             the
             grace
             of
             liberality
             ,
             2
             Cor.
             9.
             2.
             shewing
             the
             good
             that
             came
             hereby
             ,
             in
             that
             the
             example
             of
             Gods
             grace
             ,
             in
             some
             provoked
             many
             others
             to
             the
             like
             ,
             2
             Cor.
             9.
             2.
             your
             zeale
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             hath
             provoked
             very
             many
             ;
             and
             likewise
             in
             that
             ,
             by
             this
             meanes
             ,
             there
             redounded
             many
             thanksgivings
             unto
             God
             ,
             vers
             .
             12
             ,
             13.
             
             And
             if
             upon
             these
             and
             other
             good
             causes
             he
             did
             thus
             practice
             towards
             the
             Christians
             of
             Macedonia
             and
             Achaia
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             good
             reason
             why
             he
             and
             Barnabas
             should
             deal
             otherwise
             with
             the
             Christians
             at
             Antioch
             ,
             and
             conceale
             from
             them
             the
             gracious
             workings
             of
             God
             by
             their
             Ministery
             amongst
             the
             Gentiles
             ;
             and
             make
             known
             the
             same
             onely
             to
             a
             representative
             Church
             of
             Elders
             .
          
           
             As
             for
             our
             Brothers
             answer
             to
             the
             other
             Scripture
             ,
             
               Act.
               15.
               30.
               
               That
               the
               assembling
               of
               the
               multitude
               ,
               there
               spoken
               of
               ,
               must
               be
               taken
               distributively
               ,
            
             I
             conceive
             the
             text
             will
             not
             beare
             that
             exposition
             :
             for
             the
             words
             are
             that
             they
             gathered
             the
             multitude
             together
             ,
             then
             delivered
             the
             Epistle
             .
             Now
             if
             this
             multitude
             was
             gathered
             together
             not
             in
             one
             assembly
             but
             diverse
             ,
             how
             could
             the
             Epistle
             being
             but
             one
             ,
             be
             delivered
             to
             them
             all
             ?
             Can
             one
             Epistle
             be
             delivered
             to
             sundry
             or
             severall
             assemblies
             at
             one
             time
             ?
             I
             suppose
             it
             is
             not
             possible
             ,
             except
             we
             shall
             imagine
             there
             be
             sundry
             Coppies
             ,
             one
             to
             be
             read
             in
             one
             assembly
             ,
             and
             another
             in
             another
             ;
             whereof
             in
             the
             present
             case
             ,
             there
             is
             not
             so
             much
             as
             the
             least
             hint
             .
             And
             if
             we
             would
             imagine
             such
             a
             matter
             ,
             for
             which
             there
             is
             small
             reason
             ;
             yet
             since
             it
             is
             ,
             Iudas
             and
             Silas
             ,
             by
             whom
             this
             Epistle
             was
             sent
             ,
             and
             who
             were
             to
             tell
             the
             same
             things
             by
             mouth
             ,
             and
             who
             also
             upon
             the
             delivering
             of
             the
             Epistle
             exhorted
             the
             breathren
             of
             Antioch
             ,
             with
             many
             words
             ,
             as
             is
             cleare
             ,
             vers
             .
             22
             ,
             23
             ,
             27
             ,
             32.
             
             Iudas
             and
             Sila●
             ,
             I
             say
             ,
             being
             but
             two
             men
             could
             not
             be
             present
             ,
             and
             speak
             ,
             and
             act
             these
             things
             in
             many
             assemblies
             at
             once
             ,
             but
             must
             of
             necessity
             be
             both
             in
             one
             assembly
             ,
             or
             at
             the
             most
             in
             two
             :
             but
             the
             text
             makes
             no
             mention
             of
             their
             being
             in
             two
             ,
             but
             plainly
             enough
             intimates
             the
             contrary
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             both
             together
             :
             and
             yet
             where
             they
             were
             present
             ,
             there
             was
             the
             multitude
             gathered
             together
             ,
             to
             receive
             the
             Epistle
             by
             their
             hands
             ,
             and
             to
             heare
             the
             report
             and
             word
             of
             exhortation
             at
             their
             mouth
             .
             Unlesse
             therefore
             we
             will
             imagine
             that
             Iudas
             and
             Silas
             could
             be
             present
             ,
             and
             act
             in
             many
             assemblies
             at
             once
             ,
             there
             is
             no
             reason
             to
             think
             this
             multitude
             among
             whom
             they
             were
             present
             and
             acted
             ,
             to
             be
             many
             Congregations
             or
             assemblies
             .
          
           
             And
             therefore
             for
             his
             conclusion
             ,
             pag.
             475
             ,
             476.
             
             
               That
               the
               mentioning
               of
               one
               multitude
               in
               the
               singular
               number
               ,
            
             Acts
             15.
             30.
             
               can
               never
               prove
               that
               there
               was
               but
               one
               single
               Congregation
               at
            
             Antioch
             .
             The
             answer
             is
             ,
             that
             we
             doe
             not
             lay
             the
             force
             of
             our
             reason
             in
             the
             mentioning
             of
             the
             multitude
             in
             the
             singular
             number
             ,
             and
             therefore
             it
             can
             not
             thus
             be
             satisfied
             ,
             or
             put
             off
             :
             for
             our
             words
             are
             these
             :
             
               The
               whole
               multitude
               of
               them
               were
               gathered
               
               together
               at
               the
               return
               of
            
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             
               from
               the
               Synod
               at
            
             Jerusalem
             ,
             
               to
               heare
               the
               Epistle
               read
               ,
               which
               was
               sent
               from
               that
               Synod
               :
            
             Answer
             p.
             50.
             wherein
             it
             is
             easie
             to
             perceive
             ,
             that
             we
             lay
             the
             force
             of
             our
             reason
             not
             in
             this
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             is
             called
             a
             multitude
             in
             the
             singular
             number
             ;
             but
             in
             this
             ,
             that
             the
             whole
             multitude
             were
             gathered
             together
             ,
             for
             such
             an
             end
             ,
             as
             there
             is
             expressed
             :
             and
             this
             we
             still
             conceive
             may
             prove
             the
             point
             :
             For
             a
             Church
             ,
             which
             is
             such
             a
             multitude
             ,
             as
             is
             gathered
             together
             ,
             for
             the
             receiving
             of
             one
             Epistle
             ,
             which
             was
             sent
             unto
             them
             all
             ,
             and
             which
             is
             gathered
             together
             to
             heare
             the
             Epistle
             read
             ,
             and
             also
             to
             heare
             the
             same
             things
             by
             mouth
             ,
             the
             men
             from
             whose
             mouth
             they
             must
             so
             heare
             ,
             and
             from
             whose
             hands
             they
             must
             so
             receive
             ,
             being
             no
             more
             but
             two
             ;
             such
             a
             Church
             as
             this
             can
             be
             no
             more
             ,
             but
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             or
             Assembly
             .
             Now
             Antioch
             was
             such
             a
             Church
             :
             and
             therefore
             was
             no
             more
             but
             one
             Congregation
             .
             If
             this
             conclusion
             be
             not
             granted
             ,
             some
             way
             must
             be
             devised
             how
             many
             severall
             assemblies
             might
             all
             be
             receivers
             and
             hearers
             of
             one
             and
             the
             same
             Epistle
             at
             the
             same
             time
             ,
             there
             being
             but
             one
             coppy
             of
             the
             Epistle
             ,
             as
             also
             how
             they
             might
             at
             one
             time
             heare
             the
             same
             things
             declared
             to
             them
             by
             mouth
             ,
             when
             there
             was
             but
             two
             men
             to
             declare
             the
             same
             .
             And
             when
             such
             a
             way
             is
             found
             out
             ,
             we
             may
             then
             further
             consider
             thereof
             .
             But
             in
             the
             mean
             time
             ,
             the
             grounds
             and
             reasons
             alledged
             doth
             induce
             me
             to
             think
             ,
             that
             Antioch
             ,
             where
             those
             things
             were
             thus
             done
             ,
             was
             indeed
             ,
             but
             one
             Congregation
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XVII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             no
             liberties
             are
             given
             by
             Christ
             to
             the
             People
             ,
             but
             women
             must
             exercise
             the
             same
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             men
             :
             and
             of
             the
             peoples
             liberty
             about
             Ordination
             ,
             or
             the
             Calling
             of
             Ministers
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               the
               answer
               ,
               p.
               8.
               we
               have
               these
               words
               ,
            
             viz.
             Governing
             properly
             so
             called
             we
             acknowledge
             not
             in
             any
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             1
             
               Cor.
               12.
               vers
               .
               28.
               
               Rom.
               12.
               8.
               
               Heb.
            
             13.
             17.
             
             If
             that
             word
             be
             ascribed
             to
             the
             people
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             understood
             in
             a
             more
             improper
             sense
             ;
             for
             that
             which
             impropriety
             of
             speech
             were
             more
             fitly
             called
             liberty
             or
             priviledge
             :
             and
             yet
             this
             liberty
             when
             it
             is
             exercised
             about
             Ordination
             ,
             Deposition
             ,
             Excommunication
             ,
             &c.
             is
             of
             the
             whole
             body
             communiter
             ,
             or
             in
             generall
             ,
             but
             not
             of
             all
             and
             every
             member
             in
             particular
             ,
             as
             you
             conceive
             us
             to
             hold
             ;
             for
             women
             and
             children
             are
             members
             ,
             and
             yet
             are
             not
             to
             act
             in
             such
             matters
             ,
             the
             one
             being
             debarred
             by
             their
             sex
             ,
             and
             the
             other
             for
             want
             of
             understanding
             and
             discretion
             .
             
               This
               passage
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               having
               related
               (
               though
               with
               some
               variation
               )
               in
               his
               pag.
               476
               :
               in
               answer
               thereto
               ,
               he
               saith
               thus
               ,
               p.
            
             477.
             
             If
             there
             be
             no
             governing
             power
             in
             women
             ,
             nor
             any
             act
             at
             all
             in
             Excommunication
             ,
             you
             loose
             many
             arguments
             ,
             that
             you
             bring
             1
             Cor.
             5.
             to
             prove
             that
             all
             have
             hand
             in
             Excommunication
             ,
             1.
             
             Because
             Paul
             writeth
             to
             all
             .
             2.
             
             All
             were
             to
             mourne
             .
             3.
             
             All
             were
             to
             forbeare
             the
             company
             of
             the
             Excommunicated
             :
             then
             belike
             Paul
             writeth
             not
             to
             all
             Saints
             at
             Corinth
             ,
             not
             to
             women
             ,
             and
             women
             were
             not
             to
             mourne
             for
             the
             scandall
             ,
             nor
             to
             forbeare
             his
             company
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             Mr.
             Tompson
             and
             I
             doe
             being
             such
             arguments
             from
             1
             Cor.
             5.
             why
             is
             not
             the
             place
             quoted
             ,
             where
             we
             doe
             bring
             them
             ?
             I
             suppose
             there
             is
             no
             such
             place
             at
             all
             that
             can
             be
             produced
             ;
             and
             therefore
             I
             desire
             so
             much
             favour
             ,
             that
             what
             we
             never
             said
             ,
             may
             
             not
             be
             imputed
             to
             us
             ,
             nor
             divulged
             abroad
             ,
             as
             ours
             .
             If
             others
             doe
             bring
             such
             arguments
             from
             1
             Cor.
             5.
             they
             that
             bring
             them
             are
             able
             to
             speake
             for
             themselves
             ,
             and
             to
             give
             account
             of
             their
             own
             arguments
             ;
             but
             I
             know
             no
             reason
             that
             doth
             require
             ,
             that
             we
             should
             be
             drawn
             to
             defend
             such
             arguments
             as
             we
             never
             used
             ;
             nor
             that
             doth
             allow
             our
             Reverend
             Brother
             to
             report
             such
             arguments
             as
             ours
             ;
             which
             having
             never
             been
             used
             by
             us
             ,
             I
             counted
             it
             therefore
             an
             impertinent
             digression
             ,
             to
             spend
             time
             in
             the
             defence
             of
             them
             .
          
           
             The
             priviledge
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             being
             a
             part
             of
             liberty
             purchased
             by
             Christs
             body
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             due
             to
             〈…〉
             for
             the
             liberty
             wherewith
             Christ
             hath
             made
             women
             free
             ,
             cannot
             be
             taken
             away
             〈…〉
             of
             God
             from
             their
             sex
             ,
             except
             in
             Christ
             Iesus
             there
             be
             a
             difference
             between
             Iew
             and
             Gentile
             ,
             male
             and
             female
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             That
             which
             is
             in
             the
             people
             ,
             we
             say
             ,
             in
             propriety
             of
             speech
             ,
             is
             more
             ●itly
             called
             liberty
             or
             priviledge
             :
             but
             of
             liberty
             purchased
             by
             Christs
             body
             or
             blood
             ,
             we
             make
             no
             mention
             at
             all
             :
             and
             therefore
             our
             Brother
             might
             have
             spared
             speech
             thereof
             .
             But
             it
             is
             true
             indeed
             ,
             that
             the
             people
             can
             have
             no
             liberty
             ,
             but
             women
             also
             may
             exercise
             the
             〈…〉
             else
             their
             liberty
             purchased
             for
             them
             by
             Christ
             is
             taken
             away
             ?
             It
             seems
             ,
             he
             so
             conceives
             :
             but
             then
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             how
             his
             own
             doctrine
             elsewhere
             ,
             and
             the
             Apostl●s
             w●●ds
             can
             stand
             together
             :
             for
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             that
             
               Acts
               14.
               23.
               
               Proveth
               that
               Elders
               ordaine
               Elder
               ,
               with
               lifting
               up
               of
               the
               hands
               of
               the
               people
               ,
               and
               this
               ,
               saith
               he
               ,
               is
            
             〈…〉
             doctrine
             ,
             Due
             Right
             p.
             190.
             
               and
               in
               another
               place
               ,
               he
               saith
               ,
               The
               people
               have
               Gods
               right
               to
               choose
               Ministers
               ,
               for
               so
               the
               word
               prescribeth
               ;
               for
               which
               in
               his
               margent
               he
               alledgeth
               〈◊〉
               severall
               texts
               of
               Scripture
               ,
            
             Acts
             15.
             22.
             1
             
             Cor.
             16.
             3.
             2.
             
             Cor.
             8.
             19.
             
             Acts
             6.
             4.
             
             Acts
             14.
             23.
             
               and
               in
               his
               text
               alledgeth
            
             Tertullian
             ,
             Cyprian
             ,
             Ambrose
             ,
             Origen
             ,
             Chrysostome
             ,
             
               the
               Councell
               of
            
             Nice
             ,
             
               the
               first
               generall
               Councell
               of
            
             Constantinople
             ,
             
               with
               other
               Councels
               and
               Authors
               witnessing
               the
               same
               :
            
             pag.
             201
             ,
             202.
             
             
               And
               in
               a
               third
               place
               ,
               he
               grants
               that
               all
               matters
               in
               the
               Church
               must
               be
               done
               with
               the
               peoples
               consent
               ,
            
             consentiente
             plebe
             ,
             
               alledging
               a
               matter
               of
               18.
               or
               19.
               
               Authors
               for
               the
               same
               tenet
               .
            
             Peaceable
             Plea
             ,
             
               p.
               49.
               and
               in
               another
               place
               he
               alledgeth
               and
               approveth
               the
               judgement
               of
               Mr.
            
             Calderwood
             ,
             
               and
               Mr.
            
             Cartwright
             
               affirming
               that
               this
               liberty
               is
               purchased
               by
               the
               blood
               of
               Christ
               :
               Due
               Right
               ,
            
             Secondly
             ,
             pag.
             464.
             
             All
             which
             ,
             do
             plainly
             shew
             that
             in
             his
             judgement
             ,
             the
             people
             have
             some
             〈◊〉
             ,
             or
             priviledge
             ,
             or
             right
             in
             Church
             matters
             ;
             yea
             ,
             as
             himself
             saith
             in
             this
             ,
             they
             have
             
               divinum
               jus
            
             ,
             Gods
             right
             :
             And
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             ,
             the
             Apostles
             words
             do
             plainly
             forbid
             women
             to
             speak
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             1
             
               Cor.
               14.
               34.
               1
               
               Tim.
            
             2.
             12.
             which
             very
             prohibition
             to
             women
             doth
             also
             secretly
             imply
             ,
             that
             men
             may
             have
             liberty
             to
             practise
             ,
             though
             women
             may
             not
             .
             Now
             then
             ,
             if
             the
             people
             have
             liberty
             ,
             priviledge
             ,
             right
             to
             consent
             ,
             and
             act
             in
             Church
             matters
             ;
             yea
             ,
             to
             speak
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             and
             yet
             women
             may
             not
             speak
             therein
             ,
             how
             can
             this
             stand
             ,
             which
             here
             M.
             Rutherford
             writes
             ,
             That
             if
             the
             people
             have
             any
             liberty
             ,
             this
             liberty
             must
             also
             be
             due
             to
             women
             ?
             If
             the
             Apostles
             words
             and
             our
             Brothers
             own
             doctrine
             in
             the
             places
             cited
             do
             stand
             ,
             his
             saying
             in
             the
             place
             ,
             we
             have
             now
             in
             hand
             ,
             cannot
             stand
             ,
             they
             being
             so
             contrary
             one
             to
             another
             .
             Thirdly
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             
               What
               priviledge
               the
               people
               have
               in
               Ordination
               to
               conferre
               a
               ministery
               ,
               which
               they
               neither
               have
               formally
               ,
               nor
               virtually
               ,
            
             I
             know
             not
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Neither
             formally
             ,
             nor
             virtually
             ?
             then
             hear
             your
             own
             words
             ,
             pag.
             7.
             
             
               I
               deny
               not
               but
               there
               is
               a
               power
               virtuall
               ,
               not
               formall
               in
               the
               Church
               of
               beleevers
               ,
               to
               supply
               the
               want
               of
               ordination
               of
               Pastors
               ,
            
             hic
             &
             nunc
             ;
             
               this
               power
               is
               virtuall
               ,
               not
               formall
               ,
               &c.
               
            
             Whereas
             
             in
             the
             place
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             the
             virtuall
             power
             as
             well
             as
             the
             formall
             is
             denyed
             ;
             which
             things
             are
             not
             free
             from
             Interferring
             ,
             or
             strong
             appearance
             thereof
             .
          
           
             Our
             words
             are
             not
             just
             the
             same
             which
             M.
             Rutherford
             sets
             downe
             ,
             a
             priviledge
             in
             ordination
             to
             conferre
             a
             Ministery
             ;
             but
             these
             are
             our
             words
             ,
             a
             liberty
             exercised
             about
             ordination
             ,
             &c.
             
             And
             who
             knows
             not
             but
             there
             may
             be
             a
             liberty
             exercised
             about
             ordination
             ,
             or
             any
             other
             Ordinance
             by
             way
             of
             consent
             thereto
             ,
             or
             desire
             thereof
             ,
             &c.
             without
             any
             authoritative
             acting
             therein
             ?
             And
             if
             this
             liberty
             about
             ordination
             be
             such
             a
             fault
             ,
             then
             how
             shall
             he
             be
             justified
             ,
             who
             doth
             give
             to
             the
             people
             a
             greater
             matter
             then
             this
             liberty
             doth
             amount
             unto
             ,
             even
             a
             power
             to
             do
             that
             which
             shall
             stand
             for
             ordination
             it selfe
             ?
             which
             to
             do
             I
             conceive
             is
             more
             then
             to
             exercise
             some
             liberty
             about
             ordination
             .
             And
             when
             the
             reader
             shall
             have
             considered
             these
             ensuing
             words
             of
             M
             Rutherford
             :
             then
             let
             him
             be
             judge
             ,
             whether
             M.
             Rutherford
             do
             not
             give
             this
             power
             unto
             the
             people
             in
             some
             cases
             .
             
               As
               a
               rose
               ,
               saith
               he
               ,
               caused
               to
               grow
               in
               winter
               by
               art
               ,
               is
               of
               that
               same
               nature
               with
               a
               rose
               produced
               in
               summer
               by
               nature
               ,
               though
               the
               manner
               of
               production
               be
               different
               ;
               so
               are
               they
               both
               true
               Pastors
               ,
               those
               who
               have
               no
               call
               ,
               but
               the
               peoples
               election
               ,
               and
               those
               who
               have
               ordination
               by
               Pastors
               ,
            
             p.
             186.
             
             
               And
               in
               the
               page
               following
               ,
               he
               gives
               two
               reasons
               to
               prove
               that
               in
               some
               cases
               election
               by
               the
               people
               onely
               may
               stand
               for
               ordination
               :
               1.
               
               Because
               God
               is
               not
               necessarily
               tyed
               to
               succession
               of
               Pastors
               :
               2.
               
               Because
               where
               men
               are
               gifted
               for
               the
               work
               of
               the
               Ministery
               ,
               and
               there
               be
               no
               Pastors
               to
               be
               had
               ,
               the
               giving
               of
               the
               Holy
               Ghost
               is
               a
               signe
               of
               a
               calling
               of
               God
               ,
               who
               is
               not
               wanting
               to
               his
               own
               gracious
               intention
               ,
               though
               ordinary
               means
               faile
               .
            
             Now
             if
             the
             people
             without
             Pastors
             may
             do
             that
             which
             shall
             stand
             for
             ordination
             ,
             and
             if
             their
             election
             do
             make
             a
             Minister
             in
             some
             cases
             ;
             this
             seems
             to
             be
             more
             then
             onely
             to
             exercise
             some
             liberty
             about
             ordination
             ,
             for
             as
             much
             as
             they
             may
             doe
             this
             latter
             ,
             and
             possibly
             no
             Minister
             be
             made
             thereby
             ;
             whereas
             in
             the
             other
             case
             a
             man
             is
             made
             a
             true
             Pastor
             and
             Minister
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             by
             ordination
             it selfe
             .
             Marvell
             it
             is
             therefore
             that
             the
             greater
             is
             allowed
             as
             lawfull
             ,
             and
             not
             the
             lesser
             :
             that
             some
             liberty
             about
             ordination
             may
             not
             be
             allowed
             ,
             and
             yet
             that
             can
             be
             allowed
             which
             may
             stand
             for
             ordination
             it self
             ,
             and
             which
             makes
             a
             Minister●
             as
             truly
             as
             ordination
             doth
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XVIII
             .
          
           
             Of
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             report
             of
             Synodicall
             propositions
             in
             new-England
             .
          
           
             
               NExt
               after
               this
               ,
               our
               reverend
               Author
               falls
               to
               scanning
               ,
               as
               he
               saith
               ,
            
             pag.
             476.
             
               some
               Synodicall
               propositions
               of
               the
               Churches
               of
               New
               England
               ,
               as
               he
               calls
               them
               ,
               together
               with
               a
               Table
               of
               Church
               power
               ,
               which
               he
               calls
               the
               Table
               of
               New
               England
               .
            
             But
             with
             favour
             of
             soworthy
             a
             man
             ,
             he
             doth
             greatly
             mistake
             the
             matter
             :
             for
             neither
             was
             there
             any
             such
             Synod
             ,
             nor
             Synodicall
             propositions
             as
             he
             speaks
             of
             ,
             nor
             any
             such
             Table
             of
             New
             England
             ,
             as
             hee
             mentioneth
             .
             There
             was
             indeed
             at
             Cambridge
             in
             the
             year
             1643.
             a
             printed
             conference
             of
             some
             of
             the
             Elders
             of
             that
             Country
             ;
             where
             sundry
             points
             of
             Church
             judgement
             were
             privatly
             discoursed
             of
             ,
             and
             this
             was
             all
             .
             But
             as
             the
             meeting
             was
             not
             any
             Synod
             ,
             as
             Synods
             are
             usually
             understood
             ,
             so
             neither
             were
             there
             any
             Synodicall
             propositions
             there
             agreed
             upon
             ,
             nor
             any
             table
             of
             propositions
             agreed
             upon
             to
             be
             given
             forth
             as
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             
             New
             England
             .
             This
             I
             am
             able
             to
             testifie
             ,
             having
             been
             present
             at
             that
             meeting
             from
             the
             beginning
             thereof
             unto
             the
             end
             :
             and
             sundry
             others
             of
             the
             Elders
             of
             these
             Churches
             can
             testifie
             the
             same
             ,
             upon
             the
             same
             ground
             :
             And
             knowing
             full
             well
             the
             truth
             of
             what
             I
             heare
             relate
             ,
             I
             will
             not
             spend
             time
             in
             replying
             to
             what
             he
             hath
             written
             upon
             so
             manifest
             misinformation
             ,
             and
             mistake
             .
             What
             information
             he
             goeth
             upon
             ,
             I
             know
             not
             :
             per
             adventure
             some
             notes
             may
             have
             come
             to
             his
             view
             ,
             which
             one
             or
             other
             might
             gather
             at
             that
             conference
             for
             his
             own
             private
             use
             :
             Peradventure
             some
             in
             their
             simplicity
             meaning
             no
             hurt
             ,
             many
             have
             called
             that
             private
             conference
             by
             the
             name
             and
             tearme
             of
             a
             Syno●
             ,
             and
             M.
             Rutherford
             might
             thereupon
             adventure
             to
             publish
             in
             print
             as
             here
             we
             see
             .
             But
             however
             they
             mistake
             a
             Rose
             ,
             sure
             I
             am
             ,
             Synodicall
             propositions
             there
             were
             none
             ;
             〈◊〉
             any
             Synod
             at
             all
             ,
             not
             New
             England
             Table
             .
             And
             therefore
             I
             think
             himselfe
             and
             others
             may
             do
             well
             and
             wisely
             hereafter
             ,
             to
             be
             informed
             by
             good
             and
             sufficient
             intelligence
             of
             such
             things
             as
             they
             publish
             to
             the
             world
             concer●ing
             the
             Churches
             in
             New
             England
             ,
             or
             else
             not
             to
             beleeve
             the
             same
             ,
             much
             lesse
             to
             divulge
             the
             same
             in
             print
             .
             For
             what
             comfort
             can
             it
             be
             to
             any
             Christian
             to
             receive
             ,
             and
             publish
             to
             the
             world
             against
             a
             mans
             neighb●u●
             ,
             specially
             against
             whole
             Churches
             of
             Christ
             ,
             such
             reports
             as
             for
             the
             matter
             contained
             in
             them
             do
             not
             agree
             with
             truth
             ?
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XIX
             .
          
           
             Of
             the
             Appeales
             of
             Luther
             and
             Cranmer
             :
             and
             of
             the
             power
             and
             jurisdiction
             in
             generall
             Councells
             denyed
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ;
             whether
             therein
             he
             do
             not
             contradict
             himselfe
             ,
             and
             also
             overthrow
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             ,
             and
             Nationall
             Assemblies
             .
          
           
             
               IN
               his
               page
               482.
               alledging
               Mr.
            
             Tompson
             
               and
               me
               ,
               pag.
            
             16
             ,
             17.
             
             Hee
             reports
             us
             to
             say
             ,
             that
             though
             some
             have
             appealed
             ,
             as
             Luther
             and
             Cranmer
             from
             the
             Pope
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             yet
             not
             from
             a
             Congregation
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             As
             he
             one
             of
             these
             pages
             hath
             nothing
             at
             all
             concerning
             this
             matter
             ,
             and
             therefore
             might
             well
             have
             been
             spared
             ,
             so
             neither
             of
             them
             both
             doth
             make
             any
             mention
             of
             Luther
             ,
             either
             of
             one
             purpose
             or
             other
             :
             and
             therefore
             it
             is
             some
             marvaile
             ,
             why
             he
             should
             be
             mentioned
             as
             thus
             spoken
             of
             by
             us
             ,
             who
             do
             not
             speak
             of
             him
             at
             all
             so
             much
             as
             one
             word
             ,
             for
             any
             purpose
             whatsoever
             .
             Nor
             do
             the
             rest
             of
             the
             words
             of
             appealing
             from
             a
             Congregation
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             agree
             with
             ours
             ,
             as
             we
             have
             set
             them
             downe
             in
             the
             16.
             page
             alledged
             ;
             and
             therefore
             that
             our
             mind
             and
             meaning
             may
             appeare
             ,
             let
             me
             relate
             our
             own
             words
             which
             are
             these
             ,
             
               How
               this
               example
               (
               sc
               .
               of
            
             Cramners
             
               appealing
               to
               Councell
               ,
               related
               by
               Mr.
            
             Fox
             )
             
               doth
               suit
               the
               present
               question
               ,
               we
               do
               not
               understand
               ;
               for
               his
               appeale
               was
               not
               from
               a
               particular
               Congregation
               ,
               but
               from
               the
               Pope
               :
               nor
               was
               it
               from
               a
               Synod
               ,
               but
               to
               the
               next
               generall
               Councell
               ,
               which
               from
               that
               day
               to
               this
               hath
               not
               yet
               been
               assembled
               nor
               called
               .
               If
               we
               must
               hold
               a
               necessity
               of
               appeales
               to
               such
               a
               Iudicatory
               as
            
             Cranmer
             
               appealed
               unto
               ,
               then
               the
               supremacy
               of
               Synods
               provinciall
               ,
               and
               nationall
               is
               utterly
               taken
               away
               .
            
             These
             are
             our
             words
             in
             the
             place
             alledged
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             :
             now
             what
             doth
             he
             answer
             thereto
             ?
          
           
           
             In
             matters
             doctrinall
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             some
             as
             Luther
             ,
             and
             others
             have
             justly
             appealed
             from
             Congregation
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             though
             Luther
             and
             Cranmer
             did
             it
             not
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Say
             it
             be
             true
             ,
             that
             Cranmer
             did
             it
             not
             ,
             yet
             for
             Luther
             how
             can
             it
             be
             that
             he
             should
             be
             an
             instance
             ,
             both
             of
             such
             as
             did
             it
             not
             ,
             and
             of
             such
             as
             did
             it
             ?
             for
             Luther
             and
             others
             have
             justly
             done
             it
             ,
             and
             yet
             Luther
             and
             Cranmer
             are
             two
             of
             them
             that
             did
             it
             not
             ,
             these
             are
             sayings
             which
             seem
             not
             to
             agree
             .
             Againe
             ,
             if
             Luther
             did
             so
             appeale
             ,
             why
             is
             no
             proof
             alledged
             for
             Confirmation
             of
             what
             here
             is
             affirmed
             ?
             which
             if
             there
             had
             been
             ,
             we
             might
             have
             considered
             thereof
             .
             But
             sith
             there
             is
             not
             ,
             we
             may
             be
             allowed
             to
             forbeare
             assent
             ,
             till
             that
             which
             is
             here
             nakedly
             affirmed
             ,
             be
             further
             strengthened
             by
             some
             proofe
             or
             other
             ,
             to
             make
             it
             good
             .
             Lastly
             ,
             if
             Luther
             or
             others
             have
             justly
             appealed
             from
             a
             Congregation
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             then
             why
             will
             it
             not
             be
             lawfull
             for
             others
             upon
             like
             occasion
             to
             do
             the
             like
             ?
             And
             if
             so
             ,
             then
             (
             as
             we
             argued
             in
             the
             answer
             )
             the
             supremacy
             of
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             ,
             and
             Nationall
             Presbyteries
             is
             utterly
             taken
             away
             :
             and
             so
             ,
             by
             this
             meanes
             causes
             and
             controversies
             may
             still
             be
             depending
             ,
             and
             never
             come
             to
             be
             determined
             so
             long
             as
             this
             world
             shall
             endure
             ;
             which
             whether
             it
             be
             agreeable
             to
             the
             wisdome
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             good
             of
             his
             people
             let
             the
             wise
             judge
             .
          
           
             Though
             verily
             ,
             I
             professe
             ,
             I
             cannot
             see
             what
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             to
             censure
             scandalls
             ,
             can
             be
             in
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ;
             there
             may
             be
             some
             meerly
             doctrinall
             power
             ,
             if
             such
             a
             Councell
             could
             be
             had
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             all
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             
               For
               my
               part
               ,
               I
               am
               altogether
               of
               the
               same
               minde
               .
               But
               here
               I
               have
               a
               quere
               or
               two
               to
               propose
               to
               our
               reverend
               Brothers
               serious
               consideration
               ;
               first
               of
               all
               ,
               how
               this
               passage
               doth
               agree
               with
               that
               which
               himself
               hath
               written
               ,
               pag.
               387.
               where
               he
               saith
               ,
            
             It
             may
             be
             made
             good
             that
             a
             power
             Dogmaticall
             is
             not
             different
             in
             nature
             from
             a
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             ,
             and
             that
             we
             read
             not
             of
             any
             society
             ,
             which
             hath
             power
             to
             meet
             to
             make
             lawes
             and
             decrees
             ,
             which
             have
             not
             power
             also
             to
             back
             their
             decrees
             with
             punishment
             .
             Yea
             ,
             he
             saith
             further
             that
             if
             the
             Jewish
             Synodry
             might
             meet
             to
             declare
             judicially
             what
             was
             Gods
             law
             in
             point
             of
             conscience
             ,
             and
             what
             not
             ,
             farre
             more
             may
             they
             punish
             contraveners
             of
             the
             law
             :
             For
             Anomothetick
             power
             in
             a
             society
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             greater
             power
             ,
             and
             is
             in
             the
             fountaine
             ,
             must
             presuppose
             in
             the
             society
             〈◊〉
             lesser
             power
             ,
             which
             is
             to
             punish
             .
             Anomothetick
             power
             ministeriall
             cannot
             want
             a
             power
             of
             censuring
             .
             
               So
               that
               whereto
               in
               the
               place
               we
               have
               in
               hand
               ,
               he
               saith
               ,
               there
               may
               be
               in
               a
               generall
               Councell
               ,
               some
               〈◊〉
               doctrinall
               power
               without
               any
               power
               of
               jurisdiction
               to
               censure
               ,
               in
               this
               other
               place
               ,
               he
               saith
               ,
               these
               powers
               do
               not
               differ
               in
               nature
               ,
               nor
               can
               the
               former
               be
               without
               the
               latter
               ;
               but
               doth
               alwayes
               presuppose
               the
               same
               ,
               as
               that
               which
               is
               lesser
               ,
               and
               which
               it
               cannot
               want
               .
               Now
               how
               these
               things
               do
               agree
               I
               am
               not
               able
               to
               understand
               :
               next
               of
               all
               how
               doth
               this
               passage
               we
               have
               in
               hand
               agree
               ,
               with
               that
               which
               is
               written
               p.
            
             308
             ,
             309.
             
             Where
             he
             saith
             ,
             it
             is
             by
             accident
             ,
             and
             not
             through
             want
             of
             inate
             and
             intrinsecall
             power
             ,
             that
             the
             court
             of
             a
             Catholick
             Councell
             can
             not
             in
             an
             ordinary
             and
             constant
             way
             exercise
             the
             power
             which
             Christ
             hath
             given
             to
             her
             ;
             
               and
               what
               that
               power
               is
               he
               expresseth
               in
               two
               or
               three
               lines
               proceeding
               ,
               viz.
            
             A
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             to
             Excommunicate
             and
             relax
             from
             Excommunication
             even
             nationall
             Churches
             .
             If
             the
             Lord
             should
             be
             pleased
             to
             give
             the
             Christian
             Churches
             a
             generall
             Councell
             this
             day
             ,
             might
             lawfully
             in
             a
             jurisdictiall
             way
             declare
             the
             faction
             of
             the
             Romish
             pretended
             Catholicks
             to
             be
             mysticall
             Babylon
             —
             which
             in
             Excommunication
             in
             the
             essence
             and
             substance
             of
             the
             act
             .
             And
             againe
             ,
             This
             of
             our
             Saviour
             ,
             Tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             is
             necessarily
             to
             be
             applyed
             to
             all
             Churches
             and
             Courts
             of
             Christ
             ,
             even
             to
             a
             generall
             Councell
             .
             And
             in
             page
             304.
             
             He
             tells
             in
             that
             a
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             (
             though
             he
             call
             
             it
             extraordinary
             and
             remote
             ,
             and
             which
             is
             but
             rarely
             to
             be
             put
             forth
             in
             acts
             )
             is
             given
             to
             the
             Catholick
             visible
             Presbytery
             ,
             of
             the
             whole
             Catholick
             visible
             Church
             .
             
               In
               all
               which
               places
               he
               plainly
               affirmeth
               there
               is
               a
               power
               of
               jurisdiction
               to
               censure
               scandalls
               in
               a
               generall
               Councell
               ,
               which
               in
               the
               place
               we
               have
               in
               hand
               he
               doth
               as
               plainly
               deny
               .
            
          
           
             Thirdly
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             no
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             to
             censure
             scandals
             in
             a
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             then
             how
             shall
             it
             appeare
             that
             there
             is
             such
             power
             of
             Jurisdiction
             in
             the
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             and
             Nationall
             Presbyteries
             ,
             which
             are
             farre
             lesse
             ?
             Yea
             ,
             and
             that
             there
             is
             in
             these
             Presbyteries
             a
             power
             Independent
             and
             Supreame
             ,
             without
             appeale
             to
             any
             other
             .
             For
             such
             power
             there
             must
             be
             in
             some
             of
             them
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             any
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             in
             them
             at
             all
             ,
             sith
             we
             are
             told
             there
             is
             no
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             in
             the
             generall
             Councell
             to
             appeale
             unto
             .
             Now
             how
             shall
             it
             appeare
             that
             any
             such
             Independent
             supream
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             is
             given
             to
             any
             of
             those
             Presbyteries
             ?
             where
             are
             the
             texts
             of
             Scripture
             that
             speak
             of
             such
             power
             ?
             For
             our
             parts
             we
             know
             of
             none
             ,
             but
             do
             still
             think
             that
             this
             power
             is
             placed
             by
             Christ
             in
             a
             single
             Congregation
             and
             its
             Presbytery
             ,
             and
             are
             the
             rather
             strengthened
             in
             this
             apprehension
             ,
             for
             that
             the
             reason
             which
             is
             wont
             to
             be
             given
             against
             the
             Congregations
             power
             ,
             and
             wherein
             our
             Brethren
             are
             wont
             to
             place
             their
             greatest
             strength
             ,
             sc
             .
             that
             appeals
             are
             
               juris
               naturalis
            
             ,
             and
             that
             defects
             ,
             in
             the
             parts
             are
             to
             be
             supplyed
             and
             holden
             by
             the
             whole
             ,
             this
             reason
             we
             see
             is
             now
             removed
             and
             utterly
             taken
             away
             ,
             forasmuch
             as
             all
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             is
             denyed
             to
             the
             generall
             Councell
             which
             is
             the
             inevitable
             .
             Now
             if
             there
             be
             no
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             within
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             then
             there
             can
             be
             no
             appeals
             to
             such
             a
             Councell
             for
             such
             an
             end
             :
             and
             if
             no
             appeales
             to
             that
             Councell
             ,
             then
             the
             rule
             doth
             not
             alwayes
             hold
             ,
             that
             there
             must
             be
             appeals
             from
             the
             lesser
             assemblies
             to
             the
             greater
             :
             and
             if
             this
             do
             not
             alwayes
             hold
             ,
             then
             there
             may
             be
             independent
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             in
             a
             Congregation
             without
             appeals
             from
             the
             same
             ,
             though
             it
             be
             a
             lesser
             assembly
             then
             the
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             and
             Nationall
             Presbyteries
             ,
             and
             thus
             our
             purpose
             is
             gained
             .
             For
             how
             can
             it
             be
             avoided
             ,
             except
             this
             power
             of
             jurisdiction
             (
             yea
             supream
             or
             independent
             power
             )
             which
             is
             denyed
             to
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             could
             be
             proved
             to
             be
             in
             the
             Classes
             ,
             Synods
             ,
             or
             nationall
             Presbyteries
             ,
             which
             we
             think
             cannot
             be
             done
             .
             Indeed
             to
             say
             on
             the
             one
             side
             ,
             that
             〈◊〉
             is
             no
             independent
             power
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             to
             say
             on
             the
             other
             side
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             no
             power
             at
             all
             of
             jurisdiction
             in
             generall
             Councells
             ,
             this
             doth
             inevitably
             lay
             a
             necessity
             of
             such
             Independent
             power
             in
             these
             intermediat
             assemblies
             of
             the
             Classicall
             ,
             Provinciall
             and
             nationall
             Presbyteries
             ;
             except
             we
             shall
             say
             there
             is
             no
             such
             power
             at
             all
             appointed
             by
             Christ
             in
             any
             Church
             assemblies
             on
             earth
             .
             Now
             if
             such
             independent
             power
             be
             given
             to
             the
             Presbyteries
             mentioned
             ,
             (
             as
             it
             needs
             must
             if
             it
             be
             neither
             in
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             nor
             in
             the
             single
             Congregations
             )
             then
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             upon
             what
             scripture
             or
             scritures
             ,
             such
             power
             in
             the
             said
             Presbyteries
             is
             grounded
             and
             built
             ;
             and
             whether
             the
             said
             power
             belong
             unto
             them
             all
             ,
             or
             only
             unto
             some
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             which
             they
             be
             ,
             and
             why
             not
             to
             the
             rest
             as
             well
             :
             yea
             ,
             why
             not
             to
             the
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             nor
             yet
             to
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             to
             any
             of
             them
             .
             When
             this
             quaere
             is
             answered
             ,
             and
             the
             answer
             sufficiently
             proved
             by
             scripture
             ,
             then
             we
             shall
             see
             more
             reason
             for
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             such
             assemblies
             over
             the
             particular
             Congregations
             then
             yet
             we
             have
             seen
             .
             In
             the
             mean
             ,
             time
             this
             quaere
             with
             the
             rest
             I
             leave
             to
             our
             Brethrens
             consideration
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XX.
             
          
           
             If
             it
             were
             granted
             that
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             all
             societies
             to
             end
             in
             Monarchies
             ,
             whether
             it
             would
             not
             thence
             follow
             ,
             that
             the
             government
             of
             Churches
             must
             so
             end
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             that
             Congregations
             must
             depend
             on
             the
             government
             of
             Synods
             ,
             because
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             a
             Communion
             in
             government
             to
             other
             societies
             .
             And
             whether
             the
             multitude
             of
             Grecians
             and
             Hebrews
             ,
             who
             chose
             the
             seven
             Deacons
             ,
             Act.
             6.
             were
             two
             Congregations
             or
             one
             onely
             .
          
           
             PAG
             .
             482.
             
             If
             Churches
             must
             be
             dependent
             on
             Synods
             ,
             because
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             a
             communion
             and
             assistance
             in
             government
             ,
             by
             the
             same
             reason
             Churches
             must
             end
             in
             a
             Monarchy
             on
             earth
             ;
             for
             which
             he
             alledgeth
             the
             answ
             .
             pag.
             20.
             and
             then
             subjoyneth
             his
             answer
             ,
             thus
             :
             I
             see
             this
             said
             without
             any
             approbation
             :
             Churches
             depend
             on
             many
             above
             them
             for
             unity
             ;
             but
             what
             consquence
             in
             this
             ,
             Erg●
             they
             depend
             upon
             one
             visible
             Monarch
             ?
             It
             is
             an
             unjust
             consequence
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             With
             favour
             of
             so
             worthy
             a
             man
             ,
             he
             greatly
             wrongs
             our
             words
             (
             and
             thereby
             wrongs
             the
             reader
             )
             by
             leaving
             out
             those
             words
             wherein
             the
             plainenesse
             and
             strength
             of
             our
             argumentation
             lyes
             .
             Therefore
             I
             am
             forced
             here
             to
             relate
             the
             order
             and
             progresse
             of
             the
             dispute
             in
             that
             script
             of
             ours
             ,
             and
             to
             set
             down
             our
             words
             there
             used
             ,
             because
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             set
             them
             down
             ,
             the
             strength
             of
             consequence
             is
             suppressed
             from
             the
             Readers
             knowledge
             ,
             and
             so
             indeed
             his
             answer
             is
             made
             easie
             :
             but
             the
             naked
             truth
             lyes
             thus
             .
             Our
             reverend
             Brother
             to
             whose
             Treatise
             we
             return
             answer
             in
             that
             small
             piece
             of
             ours
             ,
             having
             said
             ,
             that
             communion
             and
             assistance
             in
             government
             is
             taught
             by
             the
             very
             light
             of
             nature
             to
             all
             societies
             whatsoever
             ,
             whether
             Commonwealths
             ,
             or
             Armies
             ,
             Universities
             ,
             or
             Navies
             ;
             he
             presently
             addeth
             by
             way
             of
             prevention
             .
             
               Not
               that
               therefore
               this
               government
               of
               Churches
               should
               (
               as
               those
               )
               end
               in
               a
               Monarchy
               upon
               earth
               .
            
             In
             answer
             whereto
             ,
             besides
             other
             things
             ,
             we
             have
             these
             words
             ,
             pag.
             21.
             
             
               If
               Churches
               must
               be
               dependent
               on
               the
               government
               of
               Synods
               ,
               because
               the
               light
               of
               nature
               teacheth
               a
               communion
               and
               assistance
               in
               government
               to
               all
               societies
               whatsoever
               ,
               then
               we
               see
               not
               how
               it
               will
               be
               avoided
               ,
               but
               by
               the
               same
               reason
               ,
               Churches
               must
               end
               in
               a
               Monarchie
               on
               earth
               ,
               if
               it
               were
               once
               cleared
               ,
               that
               the
               light
               of
               nature
               doth
               teach
               all
               societies
               whatever
               so
               to
               end
               ;
               so
               there
               is
               as
               good
               reason
               for
               this
               as
               for
               the
               other
               .
            
             Which
             last
             words
             ,
             if
             it
             were
             once
             proved
             &c.
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             wholy
             leaves
             out
             and
             suppresseth
             ,
             and
             so
             makes
             his
             own
             answer
             more
             easie
             .
             But
             I
             desire
             so
             much
             favour
             ,
             which
             I
             think
             is
             but
             reasonable
             ,
             that
             he
             that
             will
             undertake
             to
             answer
             our
             writing
             ,
             would
             represent
             our
             words
             and
             arguing
             as
             it
             is
             ,
             and
             no
             otherwise
             ,
             and
             then
             I
             am
             content
             that
             the
             same
             may
             come
             under
             tryall
             .
             Now
             our
             arguing
             is
             this
             ;
             If
             Churches
             must
             be
             dependent
             upon
             the
             government
             of
             Synods
             upon
             this
             reason
             ;
             because
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             a
             communion
             and
             assistance
             in
             government
             to
             all
             societies
             whatsoever
             ;
             
             then
             by
             the
             like
             reason
             let
             it
             be
             once
             proved
             (
             which
             is
             by
             Mr.
             Herle
             affirmed
             )
             that
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             all
             societies
             to
             end
             in
             a
             Monarchy
             ,
             and
             it
             will
             thereupon
             follow
             that
             Churches
             must
             likewise
             end
             in
             the
             same
             manner
             .
             If
             we
             yeeld
             thus
             much
             that
             what
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             other
             societies
             ,
             the
             same
             must
             be
             observed
             in
             the
             government
             of
             Churches
             :
             I
             think
             it
             will
             then
             follow
             ,
             that
             if
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teach
             other
             societies
             to
             end
             in
             a
             Monarchy
             on
             earth
             ,
             the
             government
             of
             Churches
             must
             do
             so
             also
             .
             This
             is
             our
             manner
             of
             arguing
             ,
             in
             which
             the
             consequence
             is
             the
             same
             with
             that
             which
             our
             Brethren
             think
             so
             strong
             ,
             viz.
             that
             because
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             teacheth
             a
             communion
             and
             assistance
             in
             government
             ,
             therefore
             there
             must
             be
             in
             the
             Churches
             a
             government
             of
             Synods
             .
          
           
             If
             any
             say
             the
             consequence
             is
             not
             alike
             necessary
             in
             both
             cases
             ,
             because
             the
             ground
             doth
             not
             hold
             alike
             in
             both
             ,
             for
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             doth
             not
             teach
             all
             societies
             on
             earth
             to
             end
             in
             a
             Monarchie
             ,
             as
             it
             doth
             teach
             a
             communion
             and
             assistance
             in
             government
             The
             answer
             in
             that
             we
             have
             plainly
             said
             the
             same
             ,
             in
             the
             place
             of
             the
             Answerer
             alledgeth
             ,
             viz.
             p.
             20
             ,
             21.
             
             But
             the
             main
             question
             lyes
             not
             there
             ,
             whether
             other
             societies
             do
             end
             in
             Monarchies
             ,
             (
             for
             though
             the
             reverend
             author
             whom
             we
             there
             doe
             answer
             ,
             do
             seem
             so
             to
             judge
             ;
             yet
             we
             have
             there
             plainly
             declared
             ,
             that
             we
             conceive
             of
             that
             matter
             otherwise
             :
             )
             but
             here
             doth
             lye
             the
             main
             question
             ,
             viz.
             Suppose
             it
             were
             granted
             ,
             that
             light
             of
             nature
             doth
             teach
             all
             societies
             to
             end
             in
             a
             Monarchy
             on
             earth
             ,
             whether
             would
             it
             not
             then
             follow
             that
             Churches
             must
             also
             so
             end
             :
             And
             that
             this
             is
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             wil
             plainly
             appear
             to
             any
             that
             shall
             peruse
             the
             place
             .
             And
             to
             this
             question
             ,
             our
             answer
             is
             that
             the
             consequence
             for
             the
             affirmative
             is
             as
             good
             as
             in
             that
             other
             case
             ,
             in
             which
             our
             Brethren
             do
             think
             it
             so
             strong
             :
             viz.
             for
             the
             government
             of
             Synods
             over
             congregations
             ,
             from
             the
             communion
             and
             assistance
             —
             government
             taught
             by
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             to
             other
             societies
             :
             and
             our
             reverend
             brother
             granting
             that
             the
             light
             of
             nature
             doth
             teach
             the
             one
             as
             well
             as
             the
             other
             unto
             other
             societies
             ,
             that
             is
             ,
             that
             they
             should
             end
             in
             Monarchies
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             have
             communion
             in
             government
             ,
             our
             answer
             is
             that
             thereupon
             the
             consequence
             will
             be
             as
             strong
             for
             the
             one
             as
             for
             the
             other
             in
             Churches
             .
             In
             which
             arguing
             it
             is
             easie
             to
             perceive
             that
             we
             go
             upon
             the
             ground
             which
             was
             laid
             and
             given
             us
             by
             our
             author
             :
             and
             therefore
             for
             M.
             Rutherford
             to
             suppresse
             this
             ground
             which
             we
             have
             there
             so
             plainly
             expressed
             ,
             and
             to
             represent
             and
             set
             down
             our
             arguing
             as
             if
             there
             had
             been
             no
             such
             matter
             ;
             this
             indeed
             may
             make
             way
             for
             himself
             to
             give
             answer
             to
             us
             with
             ease
             ,
             but
             whether
             it
             be
             candid
             and
             faire
             thus
             to
             deale
             ,
             I
             leave
             it
             to
             himself
             ,
             and
             the
             godly
             wise
             to
             consider
             .
          
           
             
               In
               the
               same
               pag.
               482.
               he
               alledgeth
               the
               answer
               pag.
               26.
               and
               sets
               down
               these
               words
               as
               ours
               ,
            
             viz.
             The
             Graecians
             and
             Hebrews
             made
             not
             two
             Churches
             ,
             but
             one
             Congregation
             ;
             they
             called
             the
             multitude
             of
             the
             Disciples
             together
             ,
             vers
             .
             2.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Here
             againe
             our
             words
             are
             set
             down
             unperfectly
             :
             for
             the
             question
             being
             ,
             whether
             those
             Graecians
             and
             Hebrews
             ,
             Act.
             6.
             were
             two
             severall
             Congregation
             in
             one
             Church
             ,
             or
             both
             but
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             we
             for
             this
             latter
             do
             not
             onely
             alledge
             that
             one
             particular
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             mentioneth
             ,
             that
             the
             Apostles
             called
             the
             multitude
             of
             the
             disciples
             together
             ,
             vers
             .
             2.
             but
             moreover
             that
             this
             multitude
             must
             look
             out
             seven
             men
             duely
             qualified
             ,
             whom
             they
             might
             appoint
             over
             that
             businesse
             ,
             v.
             3.
             and
             that
             the
             saying
             pleased
             this
             whole
             multitude
             ,
             and
             that
             they
             thereupon
             chose
             seven
             who
             are
             there
             named
             v.
             5.
             and
             set
             them
             before
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             v.
             6.
             who
             laid
             their
             hands
             on
             them
             :
             ibid.
             
             In
             all
             which
             ,
             say
             we
             ,
             there
             is
             no
             hint
             of
             two
             Congregations
             ,
             one
             of
             Graecians
             and
             another
             of
             Hebrews
             ,
             but
             all
             the
             businesse
             of
             chusing
             and
             ordeyning
             these
             Deacons
             ,
             seems
             to
             be
             transacted
             and
             done
             in
             one
             Congregation
             .
             For
             when
             the
             text
             saith
             that
             the
             Apostles
             called
             the
             multitude
             of
             the
             disciples
             unto
             them
             ,
             and
             made
             a
             speech
             to
             this
             multitude
             being
             assembled
             ,
             and
             the
             whole
             multitude
             did
             hear
             what
             the
             Apostles
             spake
             ,
             and
             well
             liked
             the
             same
             ,
             and
             thereupon
             joyntly
             concurred
             in
             one
             act
             of
             chusing
             seven
             ,
             and
             presenting
             them
             being
             chosen
             before
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             it
             seems
             to
             me
             more
             rationall
             to
             look
             at
             these
             things
             as
             done
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             then
             to
             imagine
             there
             were
             two
             ,
             one
             of
             Graecians
             another
             of
             Hebrews
             :
             for
             of
             two
             Congregations
             wherein
             this
             choise
             of
             Deacons
             should
             be
             made
             ,
             the
             text
             for
             ought
             I
             perceive
             doth
             not
             afford
             the
             least
             hint
             .
          
           
             
               But
               let
               us
               hear
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               his
               answer
            
             .
             That
             the
             chiefe
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             of
             both
             Graecians
             and
             Hebrews
             were
             contained
             in
             one
             ,
             to
             give
             their
             consent
             to
             the
             admission
             of
             the
             Deacons
             ,
             I
             conceive
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             chief
             are
             not
             so
             much
             as
             once
             mentioned
             in
             the
             story
             :
             but
             contrarily
             the
             text
             expressely
             mentioneth
             the
             multitude
             ,
             vers
             .
             2.
             and
             the
             whole
             multitude
             ,
             vers
             .
             5.
             
             Now
             to
             exclude
             the
             multitude
             ,
             whom
             the
             text
             doth
             expresly
             mention
             ,
             and
             to
             attribute
             the
             assembling
             and
             acting
             only
             to
             the
             chiefe
             ,
             of
             whom
             the
             holy
             Ghost
             speaks
             not
             one
             word
             ,
             this
             (
             to
             say
             no
             more
             )
             seems
             a
             violent
             forcing
             of
             the
             text
             .
          
           
             And
             if
             somthing
             had
             not
             forced
             him
             to
             it
             ,
             I
             think
             he
             would
             not
             have
             used
             it
             ;
             for
             elswhere
             
               (
               viz.
            
             p.
             495
             ,
             496.
             )
             he
             alledgeth
             this
             very
             scripture
             ,
             and
             that
             three
             severall
             times
             ,
             within
             the
             space
             of
             a
             doozen
             or
             sixteen
             lines
             ,
             to
             prove
             that
             the
             people
             ,
             yea
             the
             multitude
             are
             to
             have
             the
             choise
             of
             Officers
             ;
             and
             saith
             he
             ,
             
               If
               it
               please
               not
               the
               whol
               multitude
               ,
            
             Act.
             6.
             vers
             .
             5.
             
               it
               is
               not
               a
               choise
            
             .
             And
             in
             pag.
             190.
             
             
               He
               tells
               us
               ,
               that
               the
               multitude
            
             Act.
             6.
             
               are
               directed
               to
               choose
               out
               seven
               men
               ,
               as
               being
               best
               acquainted
               with
               them
               ;
               and
               that
               accordingly
               they
               did
               look
               out
               seven
               men
               and
               chose
               them
               .
            
             In
             which
             places
             we
             see
             he
             can
             attribute
             this
             choise
             to
             the
             whole
             multitude
             ,
             without
             any
             mention
             of
             the
             chief
             ,
             or
             so
             much
             as
             the
             least
             intimation
             of
             the
             action
             to
             be
             performed
             by
             them
             ,
             the
             multitude
             being
             excluded
             or
             absent
             ;
             yea
             ,
             he
             gives
             a
             reason
             of
             this
             choise
             ,
             which
             will
             reach
             the
             multitude
             ,
             and
             not
             the
             chief
             only
             ,
             except
             we
             shall
             say
             ,
             that
             the
             chief
             only
             were
             acquainted
             with
             these
             seven
             :
             whereas
             in
             the
             place
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             he
             would
             exclude
             the
             multitude
             ,
             and
             ascribe
             the
             action
             to
             the
             chiefe
             onely
             .
          
           
             But
             that
             all
             the
             thousands
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Jerusalem
             were
             here
             as
             in
             one
             ordinary
             Congregation
             ,
             I
             judge
             unpossible
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             For
             asmuch
             as
             the
             text
             tells
             us
             that
             the
             whole
             multitude
             of
             the
             disciples
             were
             gathered
             together
             to
             act
             as
             here
             is
             recorded
             about
             the
             election
             of
             Deacons
             ,
             therefore
             we
             judge
             that
             it
             was
             not
             unpossible
             for
             them
             so
             to
             do
             ;
             for
             how
             should
             we
             judge
             the
             thing
             unpossible
             ,
             except
             we
             would
             judge
             the
             words
             of
             God
             to
             be
             unpossible
             to
             be
             true
             ?
             Besides
             ,
             how
             many
             soever
             they
             were
             the
             text
             tels
             us
             Act.
             2.
             46.
             that
             they
             continued
             daily
             with
             one
             accord
             in
             the
             Temple
             :
             Now
             Temples
             we
             know
             there
             were
             none
             but
             one
             ;
             and
             therefore
             that
             they
             should
             all
             assemble
             in
             one
             Congregation
             ,
             we
             dare
             not
             judge
             a
             matter
             unpossible
             ,
             least
             in
             so
             judging
             we
             should
             seem
             to
             question
             the
             truth
             of
             Gods
             Testimony
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XXI
             .
          
           
             Whether
             Congregations
             may
             be
             excommunicated
             by
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             ,
             by
             vertue
             of
             those
             words
             ,
             Matt.
             18.
             tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             as
             containing
             a
             rule
             and
             remedy
             for
             all
             offences
             ,
             or
             at
             the
             least
             a
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             for
             the
             officers
             of
             Churches
             ,
             and
             Churchmembers
             ?
             And
             if
             yea
             ,
             whether
             it
             would
             not
             follow
             ,
             that
             a
             nationall
             Church
             must
             have
             the
             benefit
             of
             this
             remedy
             as
             well
             as
             others
             ,
             and
             so
             have
             no
             independency
             of
             jurisdiction
             within
             it self
             ,
             but
             be
             subject
             to
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             generall
             Councels
             ,
             which
             yet
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             doth
             deny
             ?
          
           
             
               IN
               the
               same
               p.
            
             482.
             
             He
             excepteth
             against
             another
             passage
             in
             the
             answer
             p.
             27
             ,
             28.
             where
             he
             sets
             down
             these
             as
             our
             words
             ,
             viz.
             If
             our
             argument
             be
             good
             ,
             If
             thy
             Brother
             offend
             and
             refuse
             to
             submit
             ,
             tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             because
             Christs
             remedy
             must
             be
             as
             large
             as
             the
             disease
             ;
             then
             if
             a
             nationall
             Church
             offend
             ,
             you
             are
             to
             complain
             to
             an
             higher
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
             Church
             ;
             and
             because
             offences
             may
             arise
             between
             Christians
             and
             Indians
             ,
             you
             may
             complain
             of
             an
             Indian
             to
             the
             Church
             :
             and
             then
             he
             subjoyneth
             his
             answer
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Yet
             againe
             our
             words
             are
             so
             imperfectly
             related
             ,
             as
             that
             our
             scope
             and
             intent
             doth
             not
             sufficiently
             appear
             to
             his
             reader
             .
             I
             must
             therefore
             for
             the
             readers
             understanding
             ,
             relate
             the
             passage
             according
             to
             the
             true
             and
             plain
             meaning
             thereof
             .
             The
             question
             between
             reverend
             Mr.
             Herle
             and
             us
             being
             this
             ,
             whether
             Congregations
             must
             depend
             on
             the
             government
             of
             Synods
             ,
             and
             this
             reason
             being
             brought
             for
             the
             affirmative
             ,
             that
             Christs
             remedy
             ,
             Matth.
             18.
             
             Tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             must
             be
             as
             large
             as
             the
             maladie
             ,
             offence
             ;
             if
             therefore
             there
             arise
             offences
             between
             Congregations
             ,
             there
             must
             be
             a
             Church
             of
             Synods
             above
             Congregations
             ,
             and
             those
             Synods
             must
             judge
             and
             redresse
             those
             offences
             :
             to
             this
             we
             there
             answer
             that
             all
             offences
             do
             not
             fall
             within
             the
             compasse
             of
             this
             rule
             and
             remedy
             ,
             tell
             the
             Church
             ;
             and
             so
             no
             dependency
             of
             Congregation
             upon
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             Synods
             can
             be
             sufficiently
             proved
             by
             this
             text
             .
             First
             of
             all
             ,
             we
             instance
             in
             the
             offences
             of
             nationall
             Churches
             ,
             of
             which
             we
             suppose
             our
             Brother
             will
             not
             say
             that
             they
             fall
             within
             the
             compasse
             of
             our
             Saviours
             rule
             ,
             Tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             for
             then
             the
             independency
             of
             nationall
             Churches
             and
             nationall
             Synods
             is
             overthrown
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             the
             Congregations
             ;
             which
             we
             suppose
             he
             will
             not
             grant
             ;
             and
             yet
             it
             cannot
             be
             avoided
             if
             his
             reason
             for
             the
             dependency
             of
             Congregations
             upon
             Synods
             do
             stand
             firm
             .
             And
             next
             of
             all
             we
             instance
             in
             the
             offences
             of
             Turks
             and
             Indians
             and
             other
             heathens
             ,
             who
             may
             offend
             Christians
             and
             yet
             are
             not
             to
             be
             complained
             of
             to
             the
             Church
             ,
             the
             Apostle
             expressely
             teaching
             the
             contrary
             ,
             1
             Col.
             5.
             
             This
             being
             the
             scope
             of
             that
             passage
             in
             the
             answer
             ,
             which
             here
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             excepteth
             against
             ,
             let
             us
             now
             hear
             what
             it
             is
             ,
             which
             he
             saith
             thereto
             .
          
           
             Because
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             ordinary
             communion
             faileth
             when
             you
             go
             higher
             then
             a
             nationall
             Church
             ,
             
             and
             Christs
             way
             supposeth
             art
             ordinary
             communion
             ,
             as
             is
             cleare
             ,
             If
             thy
             brother
             offend
             ,
             &c
             therefore
             I
             deny
             that
             this
             remedy
             is
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             1.
             
             If
             this
             remedy
             be
             not
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
             ,
             then
             the
             rule
             doth
             not
             universally
             hold
             true
             ,
             that
             the
             remedy
             ,
             complaint
             to
             the
             Church
             ,
             must
             be
             as
             large
             as
             the
             malady
             ,
             offence
             :
             and
             so
             our
             purpose
             is
             gained
             ;
             For
             our
             purpose
             in
             that
             place
             is
             to
             prove
             this
             very
             thing
             ,
             by
             this
             same
             instance
             of
             the
             offence
             of
             a
             nationall
             Church
             ;
             wherein
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             we
             see
             doth
             come
             over
             to
             us
             ,
             and
             affirms
             the
             same
             that
             we
             do
             .
             To
             what
             end
             therefore
             was
             it
             to
             make
             shew
             of
             removing
             or
             weakening
             what
             he
             had
             said
             ,
             sith
             when
             it
             comes
             to
             the
             issue
             ,
             he
             plainly
             concurs
             with
             us
             ?
             For
             by
             this
             means
             our
             tenent
             is
             not
             confuted
             ,
             but
             confirmed
             with
             his
             attest
             thereto
             .
          
           
             2.
             
             Though
             here
             he
             saith
             ,
             this
             remedy
             is
             not
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
             ,
             yet
             I
             am
             mistaken
             ,
             if
             elsewhere
             he
             speak
             not
             otherwise
             .
             For
             in
             pag.
             311.
             prepounding
             this
             objection
             ,
             viz.
             
               Christ
               here
               spe●keth
               of
               a
               present
               and
               constant
               removall
               of
               scandalls
               —
               A
               Catholike
               councell
               of
               the
               whole
               visible
               Church
               is
               farre
               of
               ,
               and
               cannot
               be
               had
               ,
            
             he
             returneth
             this
             for
             answer
             thereto
             :
             
               That
               Christ
               ,
               saith
               he
               ,
               speaketh
               of
               a
               present
               and
               constant
               remedy
               only
               ,
               and
               of
               no
               remedy
               against
               the
               scandall
               of
               whole
               Churches
               ,
               is
               denyed
               .
               He
               speaketh
               of
               all
               remedyes
               to
               gain
               any
               offenders
               ,
               persons
               or
               Churches
               .
               And
               in
            
             pag.
             322.
             
               he
               saith
               ,
               Christ
               giveth
               an
               instance
               only
               in
               an
               offending
               brother
               ;
               but
               the
               doctrine
               is
               for
               the
               curing
               of
               an
               offending
               Church
               also
               ,
               and
               for
               all
               persons
               to
               be
               gained
               ,
               Thou
               hast
               gained
               thy
               Brother
               :
               and
               saith
               he
               ,
               we
               are
               to
               gain
               Churches
               ,
               as
               we
               are
               not
               to
               offend
               Churches
               :
            
             1
             Cor.
             10.
             32.
             
             
               Again
               in
               his
               second
            
             pag.
             332.
             
               speaking
               of
               five
               s●rts
               of
               Synods
               ,
               of
               which
               he
               cals
               the
               fifth
               the
               generall
               and
               Oecuminick
               Councell
               ,
               he
               saith
               ,
               that
               all
               these
               differ
               not
               in
               essence
               but
               in
               degrees
               ,
               and
               what
               word
               of
               God
               ,
               as
            
             Matth
             18.
             16
             ,
             17.
             
               proves
               the
               lawfulnes
               of
               one
               ,
               is
               for
               the
               lawfulnesse
               of
               all
               the
               five
               sorts
               of
               Synods
               .
               Lastly
               ,
               nothing
               can
               be
               more
               plain
               then
               those
               words
            
             pag.
             39.
             
             
               This
               of
               our
               Saviour
               ,
               Tell
               the
               Church
               ,
               is
               necessarily
               to
               be
               applyed
               to
               all
               Churches
               and
               Courts
               of
               Christ
               ,
               even
               to
               a
               Catholike
               Councell
               :
            
             (
             The
             same
             is
             also
             to
             be
             seen
             in
             the
             
               Peaceable
               Plea
            
             p.
             86.
             )
             In
             all
             which
             sayings
             ,
             he
             plainly
             understands
             the
             text
             we
             have
             in
             hand
             ,
             to
             speak
             of
             a
             remedy
             ,
             for
             all
             that
             are
             to
             be
             gained
             ,
             yea
             a
             remedy
             for
             the
             offences
             of
             all
             persons
             and
             Churches
             that
             may
             give
             offence
             ;
             which
             Churches
             he
             saith
             may
             do
             ,
             and
             expresly
             affirms
             that
             it
             is
             to
             be
             applyed
             to
             generall
             Councels
             ,
             and
             that
             necessarily
             :
             and
             how
             these
             things
             do
             agree
             ,
             with
             the
             place
             in
             hind
             ,
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             he
             denyes
             the
             remedie
             is
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
             ,
             let
             the
             wise
             and
             himself
             judge
             .
             For
             ,
             for
             my
             part
             ,
             except
             there
             be
             some
             difference
             between
             necessary
             and
             needfull
             ,
             the
             sayings
             to
             me
             do
             seem
             inconsistent
             ,
             one
             affirming
             the
             place
             is
             necessarily
             to
             be
             applyed
             to
             all
             Churches
             and
             Courts
             of
             Christ
             ,
             even
             to
             generall
             Councells
             ;
             and
             the
             other
             denying
             that
             the
             remedy
             there
             mentioned
             is
             needfull
             in
             any
             Church
             above
             a
             nationall
          
           
             2.
             
             Christs
             remedy
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             is
             a
             Church
             remedy
             for
             offences
             among
             the
             brethren
             ,
             and
             members
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             .
             And
             Indians
             are
             nomembers
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             ,
             and
             so
             being
             without
             they
             cannot
             be
             judged
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             5.
             12.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             That
             Indians
             cannot
             be
             judged
             by
             the
             Church
             is
             very
             true
             ,
             but
             nothing
             against
             us
             :
             for
             the
             very
             same
             that
             here
             is
             said
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             was
             said
             by
             us
             before
             ,
             in
             the
             place
             which
             himself
             doth
             alledge
             ,
             where
             we
             also
             brought
             the
             very
             same
             text
             of
             Scripture
             which
             himself
             doth
             bring
             .
             Now
             why
             should
             these
             things
             be
             brought
             as
             a
             confutation
             of
             us
             ,
             which
             are
             nothing
             but
             a
             reception
             of
             that
             which
             we
             had
             delivered
             afore
             as
             our
             own
             judgement
             ?
             May
             not
             his
             reader
             be
             induced
             hereby
             to
             think
             that
             we
             had
             
             spoken
             otherwise
             ?
             But
             to
             let
             this
             passe
             .
             If
             Indians
             cannot
             be
             judged
             by
             the
             Church
             ,
             then
             still
             our
             purpose
             is
             gained
             ;
             for
             by
             this
             it
             appeareth
             that
             an
             offence
             may
             be
             committed
             ,
             where
             Christs
             remedy
             ,
             Tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             may
             not
             be
             applyed
             for
             the
             redresse
             thereof
             ;
             and
             so
             that
             universall
             proposition
             ,
             Christs
             remedy
             is
             as
             large
             as
             the
             maladie
             ,
             and
             where
             an
             offence
             may
             be
             committed
             ,
             there
             to
             tell
             the
             Church
             ,
             is
             the
             remedy
             for
             the
             redresse
             of
             the
             same
             ,
             which
             our
             brethren
             do
             lay
             as
             the
             foundation
             on
             which
             to
             build
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             ,
             the
             universality
             ,
             I
             say
             ,
             of
             this
             proposition
             is
             utterly
             overthrown
             by
             this
             instance
             of
             Indians
             ;
             and
             so
             that
             scripture
             ,
             Matth.
             18.
             appears
             to
             be
             too
             weak
             a
             bottome
             ,
             to
             bear
             the
             building
             which
             our
             brethren
             would
             erect
             upon
             it
             .
          
           
             Nor
             is
             the
             matter
             much
             amended
             by
             that
             which
             our
             brother
             here
             brings
             for
             the
             helping
             and
             clearing
             of
             it
             ,
             
               That
               Christs
               remedy
               is
               a
               Church
               remedy
               for
               offences
               among
               brethren
               members
               of
               the
               visible
               Church
               .
            
             For
             let
             this
             be
             granted
             ,
             as
             I
             know
             none
             that
             denies
             it
             ,
             yet
             still
             the
             question
             remains
             ,
             what
             is
             that
             Church
             to
             which
             our
             Saviour
             here
             gives
             power
             to
             remove
             and
             redresse
             scandals
             by
             excommunicating
             the
             offenders
             ?
             we
             conceive
             this
             Church
             is
             only
             the
             particular
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             its
             Presbytery
             ;
             and
             our
             brethren
             think
             it
             is
             also
             the
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             :
             but
             this
             apprehension
             of
             theirs
             is
             not
             confirmed
             by
             saying
             our
             Saviours
             remedy
             is
             a
             Church
             remedy
             for
             offences
             amongst
             members
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             inasmuch
             as
             the
             members
             of
             a
             nationall
             Church
             ,
             as
             such
             are
             members
             of
             the
             visible
             Church
             in
             our
             brethrens
             judgement
             ,
             and
             yet
             our
             brother
             holds
             here
             is
             nor
             remedy
             prescribed
             for
             a
             delinquent
             nationall
             Church
             .
          
           
             And
             if
             he
             can
             so
             understand
             this
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             as
             that
             for
             all
             this
             ,
             the
             nationall
             Church
             must
             not
             partake
             thereof
             ,
             so
             as
             to
             be
             censured
             and
             excommunicated
             by
             any
             Church
             above
             it
             ,
             why
             may
             not
             others
             understand
             it
             so
             ,
             as
             that
             Synods
             and
             Classes
             ,
             yea
             and
             Congregations
             too
             be
             exempted
             from
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             Churches
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             reason
             ,
             but
             if
             the
             Congregation
             be
             lyable
             to
             the
             censure
             of
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             by
             this
             Scripture
             ;
             because
             our
             Saviours
             remedy
             is
             a
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             by
             the
             same
             reason
             the
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             must
             be
             lyable
             to
             censure
             also
             ;
             yea
             ,
             and
             the
             nationall
             Church
             likewise
             ,
             because
             this
             reason
             is
             applyable
             to
             all
             these
             as
             well
             as
             to
             the
             Congregation
             .
             So
             that
             this
             notion
             of
             a
             Church
             remedy
             doth
             not
             help
             his
             cause
             at
             all
             ,
             nor
             hurt
             ours
             ,
             any
             more
             then
             it
             hurts
             himself
             .
             If
             this
             reasoning
             be
             good
             ,
             it
             is
             a
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             therefore
             the
             Congregationall
             Church
             must
             be
             lyable
             to
             censure
             for
             their
             offences
             ,
             then
             this
             reasoning
             is
             as
             good
             ,
             it
             is
             a
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             therefore
             the
             Classes
             ,
             Synods
             ,
             yea
             and
             the
             nationall
             Church
             must
             be
             lyable
             to
             censure
             for
             their
             offences
             :
             but
             this
             latter
             at
             least
             ,
             for
             the
             nationall
             Church
             ,
             our
             brother
             speaks
             against
             ,
             and
             therefore
             he
             may
             not
             presse
             nor
             urge
             the
             former
             .
          
           
             If
             he
             or
             other
             shall
             say
             ,
             that
             this
             Scripture
             contains
             a
             remedy
             even
             for
             a
             nationall
             Church
             ,
             then
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             a
             nationall
             Church
             is
             not
             independent
             ,
             but
             depends
             upon
             the
             Oecumenicall
             :
             but
             this
             our
             brother
             cannot
             say
             ,
             unlesse
             he
             will
             gainsay
             himself
             ,
             because
             he
             hath
             already
             said
             the
             contrary
             ,
             and
             seriously
             protested
             it
             w●●h
             a
             verily
             ,
             
               that
               verily
               be
               cannot
               see
               what
               power
               of
               jurisdiction
               to
               censure
               scandalls
               can
               be
               in
               a
               generall
               Councell
               :
               onely
               a
               meer
               doctrinall
               power
               in
               all
               the
               power
               that
               he
               can
               see
               in
               such
               a
               Councell
               ,
            
             pag.
             482.
             
             So
             that
             let
             him
             hold
             to
             what
             he
             hath
             thus
             seriously
             protested
             ,
             and
             this
             rule
             of
             Christ
             affords
             no
             remedy
             by
             way
             of
             censure
             for
             the
             scandalls
             of
             a
             nationall
             Church
             .
             Besides
             ,
             if
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             a
             generall
             Councell
             be
             established
             by
             our
             Saviour
             in
             this
             or
             other
             Scriptures
             ,
             then
             it
             will
             not
             only
             follow
             that
             the
             independent
             
             jurisdiction
             of
             nationall
             Churches
             ;
             yea
             ,
             and
             much
             more
             of
             Classes
             and
             Synods
             is
             overth●●wn
             ,
             which
             I
             suppose
             our
             brethren
             will
             not
             grant
             ,
             but
             moreover
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             Christ
             hath
             not
             sufficiently
             provided
             Church
             remedies
             for
             redressing
             scandal●s
             of
             Church
             members
             :
             the
             reason
             of
             the
             consequence
             is
             ,
             because
             all
             other
             jurisdictions
             being
             subordinate
             one
             to
             an●ther
             ,
             and
             all
             of
             them
             under
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ,
             which
             alone
             is
             supream
             ,
             there
             may
             therefore
             in
             all
             of
             them
             be
             appeals
             from
             the
             inferiour
             to
             the
             higher
             judicatories
             ,
             till
             at
             the
             last
             ●atters
             and
             causes
             be
             transmitted
             from
             them
             all
             to
             the
             generall
             Councell
             ;
             and
             so
             by
             this
             means
             matters
             shall
             or
             may
             never
             be
             ended
             ,
             nor
             scandalls
             remedied
             ,
             till
             a
             generall
             Councell
             shall
             effect
             the
             same
             ;
             which
             generall
             Councels
             all
             know
             are
             rare
             ,
             and
             difficult
             to
             be
             attain●
             〈◊〉
             and
             therefore
             there
             were
             small
             sufficiency
             in
             our
             Saviours
             remedy
             ,
             if
             matters
             may
             or
             must
             depend
             till
             generall
             Councels
             shall
             be
             assembled
             for
             the
             hearing
             and
             determining
             thereof
             ,
             and
             may
             not
             be
             ended
             sconer
             .
          
           
             Therefore
             we
             cannot
             see
             that
             this
             rule
             ,
             nor
             any
             other
             ,
             establisheth
             the
             jurisdiction
             of
             generall
             Cou●cels
             ;
             and
             then
             nationall
             Churches
             can
             have
             no
             benefit
             of
             our
             Saviours
             remedy
             of
             ,
             Telling
             the
             Church
             ;
             no
             more
             then
             the
             Churches
             ,
             which
             are
             congregationall
             ;
             and
             so
             whether
             is
             the
             saying
             universally
             true
             ,
             that
             where
             there
             may
             be
             offence
             committed
             ,
             there
             our
             Saviours
             remedy
             of
             Telling
             the
             Church
             ,
             may
             be
             applyed
             for
             the
             redresse
             thereof
             ,
             nor
             doth
             this
             saying
             hold
             ,
             being
             narrowed
             according
             to
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             minde
             ,
             who
             would
             have
             it
             understood
             onely
             of
             a
             Church
             remedy
             ,
             for
             the
             offences
             of
             Church
             members
             .
             For
             we
             see
             there
             may
             be
             offences
             in
             Churches
             ,
             according
             to
             our
             brethrens
             judgement
             ,
             which
             cannot
             be
             redressed
             by
             the
             help
             and
             remedy
             of
             this
             rule
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XXII
             .
          
           
             When
             the
             supream
             magistrate
             is
             a
             professed
             curing
             to
             Religion
             ,
             whether
             then
             it
             be
             likely
             and
             usuall
             that
             the
             greater
             part
             of
             the
             people
             are
             sincerely
             religious
             :
             and
             whether
             when
             the
             greater
             part
             are
             enemies
             with
             their
             magistrates
             ,
             it
             be
             then
             the
             duty
             of
             a
             few
             that
             are
             sincere
             ,
             to
             assemble
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             there
             to
             enter
             into
             a
             nationall
             Covenant
             ,
             and
             also
             to
             enjoyn
             the
             same
             unto
             that
             greater
             part
             .
          
           
             PAG
             .
             483.
             
             We
             say
             ,
             that
             if
             the
             magistrate
             be
             an
             enemy
             to
             Religion
             ,
             may
             not
             the
             Church
             without
             him
             conveen
             and
             renew
             a
             Covenant
             with
             God
             ?
             Mr.
             Mather
             
               and
               Mr.
            
             Tompsons
             
               answer
               p.
            
             29.
             that
             if
             the
             supream
             magistrate
             be
             an
             enemy
             to
             Religion
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             like
             ,
             but
             most
             or
             many
             of
             the
             people
             will
             be
             of
             the
             same
             minde
             :
             
               Regis
               ad
               exemplum
               totus
            
             —
             and
             then
             the
             〈◊〉
             in
             the
             land
             with
             not
             be
             able
             to
             beare
             the
             name
             of
             the
             land
             or
             nation
             ,
             but
             of
             a
             small
             part
             thereof
             ,
             not
             can
             it
             be
             well
             contained
             how
             they
             should
             assemble
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             ,
             for
             that
             or
             any
             other
             purpose
             ,
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             a
             professed
             enemy
             ,
             nor
             doth
             God
             require
             it
             at
             their
             hands
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             question
             between
             Mr.
             Hefle
             and
             us
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             spoken
             to
             ,
             by
             us
             ,
             in
             this
             passage
             ,
             
             is
             still
             about
             the
             meaning
             of
             our
             Saviours
             words
             ,
             Tell
             the
             Church
             :
             which
             will
             plainly
             appear
             to
             him
             that
             shall
             look
             upon
             Mr.
             Herles
             Treatise
             and
             our
             Answer
             ,
             and
             compare
             them
             together
             .
             And
             though
             we
             speak
             somthing
             of
             the
             Churches
             renewing
             a
             a
             Covenant
             with
             God
             ,
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             to
             Religion
             ,
             yet
             the
             question
             lyes
             not
             meerly
             so
             and
             no
             further
             ;
             but
             first
             ,
             this
             Church
             is
             called
             the
             Land
             or
             the
             whole
             Church
             therein
             ,
             or
             the
             whole
             number
             of
             Beleevers
             .
             Secondly
             ,
             The
             thing
             inquired
             into
             concerning
             this
             Church
             ,
             is
             whether
             they
             have
             not
             power
             to
             enjoyn
             a
             solemn
             renewall
             of
             the
             Covenant
             .
             In
             answer
             whereto
             we
             first
             of
             all
             say
             ,
             that
             in
             case
             the
             magistrate
             be
             an
             enemy
             to
             Religion
             ,
             the
             beleevers
             in
             the
             land
             are
             not
             like
             to
             be
             so
             many
             ,
             as
             that
             they
             should
             bear
             the
             name
             of
             the
             land
             or
             nation
             ,
             but
             of
             a
             small
             part
             therein
             .
             Second
             ,
             that
             in
             such
             case
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             like
             they
             can
             have
             such
             liberty
             as
             safely
             to
             meet
             in
             such
             great
             assemblies
             as
             nationall
             Synods
             :
             and
             hereupon
             we
             conclude
             that
             renewing
             of
             Covenant
             and
             enjoyning
             the
             same
             in
             national
             Synods
             ,
             being
             not
             in
             the
             power
             of
             som
             few
             beleevers
             in
             a
             land
             ,
             is
             not
             then
             required
             at
             their
             hands
             .
             This
             being
             said
             for
             clearing
             the
             scope
             and
             summe
             of
             that
             passage
             in
             the
             answer
             ,
             let
             us
             now
             hear
             what
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             saith
             thereto
             .
          
           
             This
             saith
             he
             ,
             is
             a
             weak
             answer
             .
          
           
             
               Answ
               .
               Sat
               magistrabiter
            
             :
             would
             it
             not
             do
             well
             first
             to
             disprove
             and
             confute
             ,
             and
             then
             to
             censure
             ,
             rather
             then
             to
             censure
             first
             ?
             But
             if
             it
             be
             so
             weak
             ,
             it
             will
             be
             more
             easie
             to
             overthrow
             it
             :
             let
             us
             hear
             therefore
             why
             it
             is
             so
             weak
             .
          
           
             The
             Christians
             under
             Nero
             were
             not
             like
             their
             Prince
             :
             and
             it
             s
             not
             like
             ,
             but
             sincere
             Christians
             will
             be
             sincere
             Christians
             and
             professe
             truth
             ,
             even
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             what
             of
             this
             ?
             doth
             this
             strongly
             overthrow
             that
             saying
             ,
             which
             was
             censured
             for
             so
             weak
             ?
             If
             sincere
             Christians
             be
             sincere
             Christians
             ,
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             ,
             suppose
             as
             bad
             as
             Nero
             ,
             doth
             it
             follow
             thereupon
             ,
             that
             in
             such
             times
             the
             sincere
             Christians
             will
             be
             so
             many
             in
             number
             as
             to
             bear
             the
             names
             of
             the
             land
             or
             nation
             ,
             where
             they
             are
             ,
             (
             for
             there
             lyes
             the
             question
             )
             and
             that
             it
             is
             not
             like
             to
             be
             otherwise
             ?
             I
             suppose
             no
             man
             can
             justly
             affirm
             it
             .
             For
             were
             they
             so
             many
             in
             England
             in
             the
             dayes
             of
             Queen
             Mary
             ?
             were
             they
             so
             many
             in
             Scotland
             in
             the
             dayes
             of
             popish
             Princes
             ,
             afore
             the
             reformation
             ?
             Are
             they
             so
             many
             in
             Spain
             ,
             in
             Italy
             ,
             in
             Turkey
             at
             this
             day
             ?
             doth
             not
             the
             Scripture
             say
             ,
             that
             when
             Rehoboam
             ,
             forsook
             the
             Lord
             ,
             all
             Israel
             did
             the
             same
             with
             him
             ?
             2
             Chron.
             12.
             1.
             
             And
             that
             Ieroboam
             did
             not
             only
             sinne
             ,
             but
             made
             Israel
             to
             sinne
             ?
             and
             that
             when
             a
             ruler
             hearkneth
             to
             lyes
             ,
             all
             his
             servants
             are
             wicked
             ,
             
               Prov.
               29.
               vers
            
             .
             12.
             which
             sayings
             and
             many
             more
             that
             might
             be
             alledged
             ,
             besides
             common
             experience
             do
             abundantly
             witnesse
             ,
             that
             when
             the
             supream
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             to
             religion
             ,
             often
             times
             (
             if
             not
             alwayes
             ▪
             )
             sincere
             beleevers
             in
             those
             dayes
             are
             the
             smaller
             part
             of
             that
             land
             .
             If
             M.
             Rutherford
             can
             prove
             this
             apprehension
             weak
             ,
             he
             must
             then
             prove
             the
             contradictory
             to
             be
             true
             ,
             viz.
             that
             when
             the
             supream
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             to
             religion
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             like
             that
             many
             of
             the
             people
             will
             be
             of
             the
             magistrates
             mind
             ,
             but
             contrarily
             the
             greatest
             part
             of
             the
             land
             will
             be
             sincere
             beleevers
             ,
             though
             the
             magistrate
             be
             an
             enemy
             .
             And
             when
             he
             hath
             confirmed
             this
             position
             which
             strong
             and
             convincing
             proofes
             ;
             he
             may
             then
             more
             freely
             take
             his
             liberty
             to
             condemne
             the
             other
             for
             weak
             :
             In
             the
             mean
             time
             ,
             I
             think
             it
             were
             weaknesse
             in
             us
             to
             depart
             from
             this
             apprehension
             without
             some
             better
             grounds
             then
             yet
             are
             given
             to
             discover
             the
             weaknesse
             of
             it
             .
          
           
             2.
             
             Saith
             he
             ,
             If
             your
             meaning
             be
             ,
             it
             cannot
             be
             conceived
             how
             they
             should
             assemble
             in
             a
             nationall
             assembly
             ,
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             an
             enemy
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             not
             safe
             for
             feare
             of
             persecution
             ,
             
             then
             you
             say
             nothing
             to
             the
             argument
             ,
             because
             the
             argument
             is
             drawn
             from
             a
             duty
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Are
             those
             things
             duties
             ,
             which
             are
             in
             nature
             impossible
             ?
             If
             not
             ,
             how
             is
             it
             a
             duty
             of
             a
             few
             beleevers
             in
             a
             land
             (
             for
             when
             the
             magistrate
             is
             a
             professed
             enemy
             ,
             I
             doe
             still
             conceive
             the
             beleevers
             in
             that
             land
             to
             be
             but
             few
             ,
             a
             small
             part
             of
             the
             land
             )
             how
             is
             it
             a
             duty
             ,
             I
             say
             ,
             for
             these
             few
             beleevers
             ,
             in
             a
             land
             to
             assemble
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             there
             to
             enjoyn
             a
             nationall
             Covenant
             ,
             to
             be
             entered
             into
             ,
             not
             onely
             by
             themselves
             ,
             which
             are
             but
             a
             few
             in
             comparison
             ,
             but
             also
             by
             the
             rest
             of
             the
             land
             which
             are
             farre
             the
             greater
             number
             ?
             If
             this
             be
             a
             duty
             ,
             it
             is
             more
             then
             I
             yet
             understand
             ?
             Suppose
             it
             be
             their
             duty
             to
             enter
             into
             covenant
             with
             God
             for
             their
             own
             part
             ;
             Suppose
             also
             it
             were
             the
             duty
             of
             others
             to
             doe
             the
             like
             ,
             yet
             when
             the
             greater
             part
             will
             not
             so
             doe
             ,
             but
             are
             enemies
             to
             the
             truth
             of
             God
             like
             their
             magistrates
             ,
             is
             it
             neverthelesse
             a
             duty
             of
             this
             smaller
             number
             to
             assemble
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             there
             to
             enjoyne
             a
             solemn
             Covenant
             to
             be
             taken
             by
             the
             land
             ?
             I
             mean
             not
             onely
             by
             themselves
             ;
             but
             also
             by
             others
             ,
             who
             are
             farre
             more
             in
             number
             then
             they
             ?
             do
             they
             fall
             short
             of
             their
             duty
             ,
             if
             they
             do
             not
             thus
             assemble
             ,
             and
             impose
             the
             Covenant
             ?
             In
             the
             dayes
             of
             Ieroboam
             ,
             when
             the
             generality
             of
             the
             land
             walked
             after
             his
             wicked
             commandement
             ,
             Hos
             .
             5.
             11.
             who
             made
             Israel
             to
             sin
             ,
             yet
             then
             there
             were
             some
             in
             Israel
             who
             retained
             their
             integrity
             ,
             and
             set
             their
             hearts
             to
             seek
             the
             Lord
             ,
             who
             also
             for
             that
             end
             came
             to
             Ierusalem
             ,
             to
             sacrifice
             to
             the
             Lord
             God
             of
             their
             Fathers
             ,
             2
             
               Chron.
               11.
               v.
            
             16.
             
             But
             I
             doe
             not
             remember
             that
             these
             few
             that
             were
             sincere
             in
             worship
             ,
             did
             ever
             come
             together
             in
             a
             nationall
             assembly
             in
             Israel
             ,
             to
             renew
             the
             Covenant
             with
             God
             ,
             and
             to
             enjoyn
             the
             same
             to
             that
             great
             multitude
             of
             the
             backslyding
             Israelites
             ,
             nor
             that
             such
             a
             duty
             was
             required
             of
             them
             ,
             nor
             that
             they
             are
             blamed
             by
             〈◊〉
             Lord
             ,
             nor
             any
             of
             his
             Prophets
             for
             the
             neglect
             thereof
             .
             And
             the
             case
             we
             have
             in
             stand
             is
             the
             same
             .
          
           
             If
             you
             mean
             that
             because
             the
             Princes
             power
             is
             against
             the
             Synodicall
             meeting
             ,
             this
             is
             nothing
             against
             the
             power
             of
             the
             Synods
             that
             Christ
             hath
             given
             to
             his
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             We
             mean
             as
             we
             have
             said
             ,
             that
             those
             few
             beleevers
             in
             a
             land
             ,
             being
             overpowered
             with
             the
             Prince
             and
             People
             that
             are
             enemies
             ,
             therefore
             this
             assembling
             of
             those
             few
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             ,
             and
             there
             enjoyning
             a
             nationall
             Covenant
             is
             now
             not
             in
             their
             power
             ,
             and
             so
             not
             required
             at
             their
             hands
             .
          
           
             If
             your
             meaning
             be
             that
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             lawfull
             to
             them
             to
             conveen
             in
             a
             nationall
             Synod
             to
             renew
             a
             Covenant
             with
             God
             ,
             against
             the
             supreame
             magistrates
             will
             ;
             I
             hope
             you
             minde
             no
             such
             thing
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             it
             be
             our
             meaning
             ,
             how
             can
             it
             be
             hoped
             that
             we
             do
             not
             mind
             it
             ?
             Can
             our
             ●●●●ing
             be
             one
             thing
             ,
             and
             our
             mind
             another
             ?
             But
             for
             his
             satisfaction
             and
             resolution
             ,
             〈◊〉
             plain
             answer
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             we
             neither
             had
             mind
             nor
             meaning
             to
             medle
             at
             all
             with
             that
             question
             ;
             whether
             Churches
             may
             assemble
             in
             nationall
             Synods
             against
             the
             supreame
             magistrates
             will.
             For
             we
             did
             not
             think
             that
             Mr.
             Herles
             treatise
             did
             lead
             us
             thereunto
             :
             〈…〉
             such
             a
             matter
             .
             Nor
             am
             I
             willing
             at
             this
             time
             to
             turn
             aside
             to
             the
             same
             ,
             but
             to
             keep
             close
             to
             my
             scope
             and
             ayme
             ,
             which
             is
             to
             consider
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             his
             exceptions
             against
             the
             answer
             .
             And
             therefore
             for
             his
             discourse
             ,
             which
             here
             he
             fals
             upon
             ,
             maintaining
             at
             large
             against
             malignants
             ,
             and
             namely
             against
             
               Tho
               :
               Fuller
            
             ,
             that
             the
             reformation
             begun
             in
             Scotland
             and
             prosecuted
             in
             England
             ,
             against
             the
             Kings
             will
             is
             lawful●
             and
             warrantable
             by
             the
             word●
             this
             discourse
             ,
             I
             say
             ,
             being
             altogether
             concerning
             others
             ,
             and
             not
             us
             ;
             I
             will
             therefore
             passe
             it
             over
             ,
             and
             come
             to
             that
             wherein
             our selves
             are
             concerned
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XXIII
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             word
             Church
             be
             not
             given
             to
             a
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             whether
             a
             Congregation
             be
             a
             Company
             or
             Church
             ,
             meeting
             only
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             and
             not
             for
             any
             other
             spirituall
             duties
             :
             and
             whether
             the
             divers
             duties
             ,
             1.
             of
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             .
             2.
             
             Of
             Discipline
             ,
             &c.
             must
             needs
             argue
             divers
             Churches
             .
          
           
             PAG
             .
             489.
             
             The
             name
             Church
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             4
             ,
             5
             ,
             35.
             27
             ,
             28.
             is
             plainly
             given
             to
             that
             company
             that
             did
             assemble
             and
             come
             together
             for
             performance
             of
             spirituall
             duties
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             exercise
             of
             spirituall
             gifts
             ,
             as
             Act.
             14.
             27.
             and
             11.
             26.
             and
             15.
             4.
             22.
             30.
             and
             1
             
               Cor.
               11.
               18
               ,
               20
               ,
               22
               ,
               23
               ,
               3
               John
            
             6.
             which
             places
             do
             abundantly
             shew
             ,
             that
             a
             company
             gathered
             together
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             is
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             as
             Centhera
             ,
             Rom.
             16.
             1.
             which
             could
             not
             contain
             many
             Congregations
             ,
             being
             but
             the
             part
             of
             
               Corinth
               .
               And
               for
               this
               passage
               he
               alledgeth
               the
               answer
               .
               pag.
            
             32.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Mr.
             Herle
             having
             said
             ,
             that
             the
             Scripture
             never
             useth
             the
             word
             Church
             for
             a
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             unlesse
             happily
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             and
             that
             many
             Congregations
             in
             one
             Province
             or
             City
             are
             frequently
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             we
             in
             answer
             to
             the
             former
             of
             these
             doe
             give
             many
             instances
             ,
             p.
             31
             ,
             32.
             where
             a
             single
             C●●●regation
             Is
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             not
             onely
             in
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             which
             Mr.
             Herle
             acknowledgeth
             (
             though
             with
             a
             perhaps
             )
             but
             also
             in
             sundry
             other
             scriptures
             ,
             which
             here
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             quoteth
             .
             Now
             let
             us
             heare
             his
             answer
             to
             this
             passage
             .
          
           
             Wee
             seek
             no
             more
             ,
             saith
             he
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Are
             we
             then
             agreed
             ,
             that
             in
             scripture
             language
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             sundry
             times
             given
             to
             a
             single
             Congregation
             ?
             If
             so
             ,
             then
             for
             this
             point
             the
             answer
             is
             not
             confuted
             but
             confirmed
             .
          
           
             If
             it
             be
             called
             a
             Church
             which
             conveeneth
             for
             performance
             of
             spirituall
             duties
             ,
             as
             some
             of
             your
             places
             doe
             well
             prove
             ,
             ergo
             ,
             no
             assembly
             should
             have
             the
             name
             of
             Church
             ,
             but
             such
             as
             assemble
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             this
             now
             you
             cann●t
             affirm
             and
             it
             followeth
             not
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             this
             follow
             not
             ,
             what
             needs
             it
             ?
             we
             never
             affirmed
             it
             ,
             and
             our
             purpose
             that
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             given
             in
             scripture
             to
             a
             single
             Congregation
             ,
             is
             sufficiently
             gained
             without
             it
             .
          
           
             The
             Church
             spoken
             of
             Matth.
             18.
             is
             not
             assembled
             to
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             but
             to
             binde
             and
             loose
             :
             the
             meeting
             1
             Cor.
             5.
             is
             not
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             but
             to
             deliver
             to
             Satan
             ;
             the
             word
             Church
             Act.
             14.
             27.
             is
             not
             an
             assembly
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             but
             to
             hear
             how
             God
             hath
             opened
             the
             doore
             of
             Faith
             unto
             the
             Gentiles
             .
             —
             If
             to
             be
             received
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             4.
             be
             matter
             of
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             let
             all
             judge
             :
             If
             to
             send
             a
             decree
             of
             a
             Synod
             ,
             Act.
             15.
             22.
             be
             the
             act
             of
             a
             Church
             assembled
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             let
             the
             world
             judge
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Reverend
             Sir
             ,
             keep
             to
             the
             point
             ,
             we
             never
             said
             that
             discipline
             ,
             and
             all
             other
             acts
             ,
             whether
             performed
             by
             a
             Church
             ,
             are
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             :
             and
             therefore
             there
             
             was
             no
             need
             to
             prove
             they
             are
             not
             ,
             and
             then
             to
             triumph
             as
             in
             a
             great
             victory
             :
             The
             thing
             in
             question
             is
             this
             ,
             whether
             the
             name
             or
             word
             Church
             ,
             be
             given
             in
             scripture
             to
             a
             single
             Congregation
             :
             and
             if
             this
             be
             proved
             (
             as
             the
             instances
             given
             ,
             I
             hope
             ,
             do
             prove
             it
             sufficienly
             )
             then
             it
             matters
             not
             what
             that
             particular
             spirituall
             Church
             action
             is
             ,
             for
             which
             they
             do
             meet
             :
             For
             whether
             it
             be
             that
             they
             meet
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             alone
             ;
             or
             whether
             it
             be
             for
             the
             Word
             and
             Prayer
             alone
             ,
             and
             not
             at
             that
             time
             for
             Sacraments
             at
             all
             ,
             or
             whether
             it
             be
             for
             discipline
             ,
             or
             for
             any
             other
             Church
             duty
             ,
             yet
             still
             if
             they
             come
             together
             into
             one
             place
             ,
             be
             it
             for
             all
             or
             for
             any
             of
             these
             ends
             ,
             they
             are
             then
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             (
             for
             what
             is
             a
             Congregation
             but
             a
             company
             so
             assembled
             in
             one
             place
             )
             and
             so
             our
             tenet
             stands
             good
             ,
             and
             our
             purpose
             is
             gained
             :
             For
             if
             they
             that
             come
             together
             into
             one
             place
             for
             Church
             actions
             and
             ends
             ,
             be
             called
             in
             scripture
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             then
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             given
             to
             a
             company
             that
             so
             came
             together
             ;
             and
             such
             a
             company
             being
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             it
             follows
             that
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             used
             for
             a
             Congregation
             .
             What
             this
             Congregation
             doth
             when
             they
             are
             come
             together
             ,
             is
             not
             the
             question
             :
             but
             if
             a
             Congregation
             coming
             together
             for
             Church
             duties
             be
             in
             Scripture
             called
             a
             Church
             ,
             we
             have
             our
             intent
             .
          
           
             If
             the
             word
             Church
             ,
             be
             a
             meeting
             of
             persons
             assembled
             to
             one
             place
             for
             Spirituall
             duties
             ,
             sometimes
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             onely
             ,
             sometimes
             for
             acts
             of
             jurisdiction
             onely
             ,
             then
             is
             the
             word
             Church
             by
             our
             brethrens
             argument
             taken
             both
             for
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             for
             the
             Elders
             of
             one
             ,
             or
             of
             divers
             Churches
             ,
             and
             so
             we
             have
             our
             intent
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Let
             the
             antecedent
             be
             granted
             ,
             yet
             the
             consequence
             is
             denied
             :
             For
             the
             word
             Church
             may
             be
             a
             meeting
             assembled
             ,
             sometimes
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             onely
             ,
             and
             sometimes
             for
             acts
             of
             jurisdiction
             only
             ,
             and
             I
             adde
             ,
             sometimes
             for
             the
             Word
             and
             Prayer
             only
             ,
             without
             exercise
             of
             jurisdiction
             or
             Sacrament
             ,
             and
             somtimes
             for
             some
             other
             act
             or
             acts
             ,
             then
             any
             of
             these
             that
             are
             named
             ,
             and
             yet
             for
             all
             this
             ,
             it
             may
             not
             be
             taken
             for
             the
             Elders
             alone
             of
             one
             Church
             ,
             and
             much
             lesse
             for
             the
             Elders
             of
             divers
             Churches
             ;
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             all
             these
             acts
             may
             be
             performed
             by
             the
             Congregation
             assembling
             sometimes
             for
             one
             of
             them
             ,
             and
             sometimes
             for
             another
             .
             And
             therefore
             your
             intent
             is
             not
             yet
             attained
             ;
             who
             would
             have
             the
             word
             Church
             to
             be
             taken
             somtimes
             for
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             sometimes
             for
             the
             Presbyters
             or
             Elders
             alone
             ?
          
           
             We
             desire
             our
             brethren
             to
             prove
             (
             which
             they
             must
             if
             they
             oppose
             our
             principles
             )
             that
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             never
             taken
             for
             the
             Eldership
             alore
             ,
             in
             all
             the
             word
             of
             God.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Must
             we
             prove
             a
             negative
             :
             and
             is
             that
             saying
             ,
             
               Affirmanti
               incumbit
               ●●us
               probandi
            
             ,
             now
             become
             unreasonable
             ,
             unnecessary
             ,
             or
             of
             no
             force
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             I
             am
             still
             of
             the
             mind
             ,
             that
             he
             that
             affirms
             ,
             must
             in
             equity
             and
             reason
             prove
             what
             he
             affirms
             .
             Besides
             for
             our selves
             we
             have
             this
             to
             say
             further
             ,
             that
             If
             we
             prove
             what
             we
             undertook
             ,
             we
             have
             done
             as
             much
             as
             can
             in
             reason
             be
             required
             of
             us
             ,
             though
             we
             do
             not
             prove
             this
             that
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             impose
             upon
             us
             :
             And
             what
             was
             that
             which
             we
             undertook
             to
             prove
             ?
             nothing
             in
             this
             place
             ,
             but
             onely
             this
             ,
             that
             the
             word
             Church
             is
             taken
             for
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             in
             other
             Scriptures
             besides
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             14.
             and
             this
             we
             have
             performed
             and
             proved
             already
             .
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             himself
             allowing
             some
             of
             our
             proofs
             for
             good
             :
             And
             therefore
             having
             performed
             this
             point
             ,
             it
             is
             more
             then
             needs
             to
             be
             required
             of
             us
             ,
             to
             prove
             another
             also
             ,
             which
             we
             never
             undertook
             to
             prove
             ,
             as
             being
             quite
             besides
             our
             question
             ,
             which
             we
             were
             and
             still
             are
             desirous
             to
             keep
             close
             unto
             ,
             and
             not
             to
             wonder
             or
             be
             diverted
             from
             it
             by
             any
             means
             .
          
           
           
             Whereas
             our
             brethren
             say
             ,
             a
             company
             gathered
             into
             one
             place
             (
             which
             is
             nothing
             else
             but
             a
             Congregation
             )
             are
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             I
             answer
             such
             a
             company
             is
             only
             (
             I
             suppose
             this
             is
             misprinted
             ,
             for
             is
             not
             onely
             )
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             for
             a
             company
             meeting
             for
             discipline
             only
             ,
             is
             a
             Church
             also
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             a
             company
             gathered
             into
             one
             place
             ,
             which
             is
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             be
             called
             by
             the
             name
             of
             a
             Church
             ,
             this
             is
             as
             much
             as
             we
             desire
             :
             for
             our
             tenent
             is
             herein
             expresly
             granted
             to
             be
             true
             :
             If
             a
             company
             meeting
             for
             discipline
             onely
             be
             a
             Church
             also
             ,
             yet
             as
             long
             as
             the
             former
             is
             not
             denyed
             ,
             the
             adding
             of
             this
             other
             doth
             no
             hurt
             to
             us
             at
             all
             .
          
           
             It
             is
             false
             that
             a
             company
             gathered
             into
             one
             place
             ,
             are
             nothing
             else
             but
             a
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             
               Answ
               .
               Bona
               verba
               quaso
            
             :
             we
             had
             thought
             that
             as
             a
             company
             assembled
             ,
             is
             an
             assembly
             ,
             a
             company
             met
             ,
             is
             a
             meeting
             ,
             a
             company
             convocated
             ,
             a
             convocation
             ;
             so
             a
             company
             gathered
             together
             or
             congregated
             ,
             had
             been
             a
             Congregation
             :
             But
             this
             is
             peremptorily
             now
             condemned
             as
             false
             :
             yet
             let
             us
             hear
             why
             .
          
           
             As
             you
             take
             the
             word
             Congregation
             :
             for
             so
             your
             Congregation
             is
             an
             assembly
             of
             men
             and
             women
             meeting
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             with
             the
             Elders
             of
             the
             Church
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             what
             if
             they
             meet
             for
             prayer
             also
             ,
             what
             if
             for
             the
             Word
             and
             Prayer
             without
             Sacraments
             ,
             for
             this
             or
             that
             time
             ?
             what
             if
             they
             meet
             for
             the
             admission
             of
             members
             also
             ,
             or
             for
             censuring
             delinquents
             ?
             Can
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             prove
             that
             either
             of
             us
             ,
             I
             mean
             either
             Mr.
             Tompson
             or
             my self
             ,
             or
             indeed
             any
             man
             else
             of
             that
             judgement
             ,
             which
             he
             opposeth
             ,
             have
             denyed
             an
             assembly
             meeting
             for
             such
             ends
             ,
             as
             these
             to
             be
             a
             Congregation
             ?
             I
             suppose
             he
             cannot
             :
             And
             therefore
             it
             was
             not
             well
             done
             to
             impute
             unto
             us
             such
             a
             sence
             of
             the
             word
             Congregation
             ,
             as
             we
             never
             spake
             nor
             thought
             of
             ,
             and
             then
             to
             say
             ,
             
               It
               is
               false
               that
               a
               company
               gathered
               into
               one
               place
               is
               a
               Congregation
               ,
               as
               that
               word
               is
               taken
               by
               us
               .
            
          
           
             I
             appeale
             to
             the
             judgement
             of
             our
             reverend
             brethren
             ,
             if
             the
             Church
             ,
             Matth.
             18.
             assembled
             to
             to
             bind
             and
             loose
             ,
             if
             the
             Church
             assembled
             ,
             1
             Corin.
             5.
             to
             deliver
             to
             Satan
             ,
             (
             and
             sundry
             others
             are
             there
             named
             to
             the
             like
             purpose
             )
             be
             a
             Congregationall
             Church
             assembled
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             the
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             be
             not
             mentioned
             in
             the
             places
             alledged
             ,
             but
             other
             actions
             and
             duties
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             follow
             that
             the
             Churches
             spoken
             of
             in
             these
             places
             did
             assemble
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ?
             may
             not
             one
             and
             the
             same
             Church
             assemble
             for
             diverse
             ends
             and
             actions
             ?
             yea
             ,
             possibly
             for
             diverse
             upon
             one
             day
             ?
             At
             the
             least
             wise
             it
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             ,
             but
             at
             severall
             times
             of
             assembling
             a
             Church
             may
             attend
             to
             diverse
             duties
             and
             actions
             ,
             and
             yet
             still
             be
             one
             and
             the
             same
             Congregation
             or
             Church
             ,
             at
             one
             time
             which
             they
             were
             at
             another
             .
             Or
             otherwise
             we
             must
             say
             (
             which
             were
             a
             very
             unwise
             saying
             )
             that
             a
             Church
             meeting
             for
             diverse
             actions
             to
             be
             performed
             upon
             one
             day
             ,
             as
             the
             Word
             ,
             Prayer
             ,
             Psalms
             ,
             Sacraments
             ,
             &c.
             is
             not
             the
             same
             Church
             is
             one
             of
             these
             actions
             ,
             that
             it
             was
             in
             another
             ,
             but
             is
             one
             Church
             when
             they
             are
             at
             Prayer
             ,
             another
             when
             they
             are
             singing
             Psalms
             ,
             another
             when
             they
             are
             in
             exercise
             of
             the
             Word
             or
             Sacraments
             ,
             &c.
             
             Or
             if
             they
             meet
             one
             day
             ,
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             and
             another
             day
             for
             Word
             and
             Prayer
             without
             Sacraments
             ,
             that
             n●w
             they
             are
             diverse
             Churches
             ,
             and
             not
             the
             same
             upon
             one
             of
             these
             dayes
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             upon
             another
             ,
             the
             nature
             and
             kind
             of
             their
             Church
             being
             altered
             according
             to
             the
             severall
             duties
             wherein
             they
             are
             exercised
             .
             This
             arguing
             I
             suppose
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             would
             not
             own
             for
             good
             ,
             and
             yet
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             it
             is
             no
             worse
             ,
             but
             the
             very
             same
             with
             that
             which
             himself
             doth
             here
             use
             ,
             who
             
             because
             the
             Church
             mentioned
             Matth.
             18.
             1
             
             Corinth
             .
             5.
             and
             other
             places
             by
             him
             named
             ,
             is
             said
             to
             meet
             for
             discipline
             or
             other
             duties
             ,
             would
             thereupon
             have
             it
             thought
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             mentioned
             in
             those
             places
             was
             not
             a
             Church
             that
             did
             ever
             meet
             for
             Word
             and
             Sacraments
             ,
             but
             was
             some
             other
             Church
             of
             another
             kinde
             :
             which
             arguing
             may
             be
             good
             ,
             if
             these
             which
             I
             have
             here
             above
             expressed
             be
             good
             ,
             but
             otherwise
             I
             conceive
             it
             cannot
             stand
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XXIV
             .
          
           
             Whether
             those
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             Numb
             .
             8.
             10.
             who
             laid
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             ,
             were
             Elders
             by
             Office
             ,
             and
             as
             so
             considered
             ,
             did
             lay
             on
             their
             hands
             .
             And
             whether
             this
             Scripture
             do
             not
             prove
             that
             where
             there
             are
             no
             Elders
             to
             be
             had
             ,
             there
             some
             principall
             members
             ,
             though
             not
             Elders
             by
             Office
             ,
             may
             impose
             hands
             on
             Church
             Officers
             .
          
           
             THe
             children
             of
             Israel
             which
             were
             not
             the
             Church
             officers
             laid
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             ,
             Numb
             .
             8.
             10.
             therefore
             when
             a
             Church
             hath
             no
             Elders
             ,
             the
             people
             may
             conferre
             Ordination
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             not
             to
             be
             tyed
             to
             the
             Presbyters
             only
             :
             And
             for
             this
             be
             alledgeth
             the
             answer
             .
             pag.
             46.
             
             And
             then
             he
             addeth
             ,
             that
             other
             of
             our
             brethren
             say
             ,
             Ordination
             is
             but
             accidentall
             to
             a
             Ministers
             calling
             ,
             and
             may
             be
             wanting
             if
             the
             people
             shall
             chuse
             ,
             in
             defect
             of
             Elders
             ,
             pag.
             491.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             latter
             clause
             should
             not
             have
             been
             added
             ,
             as
             deserving
             a
             confutation
             ,
             except
             our
             brother
             would
             confute
             himself
             :
             for
             as
             we
             heard
             afore
             ,
             himself
             doth
             plainly
             affirm
             
               pag.
               186
               ,
               187.
               
               That
               both
               are
               true
               Pastors
               ,
               those
               who
               have
               no
               call
               ,
               but
               the
               peoples
               election
               ,
               and
               those
               who
               have
               Ordination
               by
               Pastors
               ;
               and
               that
               election
               by
               the
               people
               only
               may
               stand
               for
               Ordination
               ,
               where
               there
               be
               no
               Pastors
               at
               all
               :
            
             which
             if
             it
             be
             so
             ;
             why
             should
             the
             same
             thing
             in
             effect
             when
             it
             is
             holden
             by
             others
             ,
             be
             here
             inserted
             in
             an
             objection
             as
             worthy
             to
             be
             spoken
             against
             ,
             when
             himself
             doth
             cast
             the
             very
             same
             ?
          
           
             It
             is
             marvell
             that
             our
             reverend
             brother
             should
             thus
             go
             on
             in
             representing
             our
             words
             and
             mind
             amisse
             :
             for
             as
             here
             he
             sets
             down
             the
             objection
             under
             our
             name
             ,
             some
             of
             our
             words
             are
             changed
             and
             altered
             ,
             others
             being
             substituted
             in
             their
             place
             ,
             some
             are
             wholly
             suppressed
             as
             if
             there
             had
             been
             none
             such
             ,
             and
             others
             are
             added
             as
             〈◊〉
             which
             never
             came
             from
             us
             :
             Of
             the
             first
             sort
             ,
             are
             those
             of
             the
             peoples
             conferring
             Ordination
             ;
             wheras
             our
             words
             are
             not
             so
             ,
             but
             that
             the
             people
             may
             impose
             or
             lay
             on
             hands
             .
             
               Now
               between
               these
               two
               himself
            
             pag.
             492.
             
               doth
               make
               a
               great
               difference
               ,
               even
               as
               much
               as
               between
               the
               authoritative
               calling
               of
               a
               Minister
               ,
               and
               a
               rite
               annexed
               to
               that
               calling
               :
               and
               further
               saith
               ,
               that
               though
               he
               think
               imposition
               of
               hand●
               not
               so
               essentiall
               perhaps
               ,
               at
               that
               a
               Minister
               can
               be
               no
               Minister
               without
               it
               ,
               yet
               of
               Ordination
               he
               thinks
               otherwise
               ,
            
             And
             if
             he
             make
             so
             great
             a
             difference
             between
             Imposition
             of
             hand●
             and
             Ordination
             ,
             why
             should
             our
             words
             be
             forsaken
             which
             import
             the
             lesser
             matter
             in
             his
             judgement
             ,
             and
             those
             other
             which
             he
             accounts
             do
             import
             much
             more
             ,
             be
             substituted
             in
             the
             room
             ?
             was
             this
             to
             burden
             our
             opinion
             or
             apprehension
             with
             a
             greater
             odium
             then
             our
             words
             in
             his
             own
             judgement
             will
             beare
             ?
             or
             was
             it
             to
             make
             his
             confutation
             of
             us
             more
             easie
             ,
             then
             it
             would
             have
             been
             ,
             if
             our
             own
             
             words
             had
             been
             retained
             and
             kept
             ?
             what
             ever
             was
             the
             cause
             hereof
             ,
             we
             cannot
             but
             think
             it
             had
             been
             better
             if
             it
             had
             been
             otherwise
             .
          
           
             For
             omitting
             and
             suppressing
             some
             words
             of
             ours
             (
             which
             was
             the
             second
             particular
             )
             I
             alledge
             those
             of
             the
             time
             and
             places
             where
             Elders
             cannot
             co●veniently
             be
             borrowed
             from
             any
             other
             Church
             :
             the
             whole
             passage
             is
             this
             :
             viz.
             
               by
               which
               ,
               scripture
               ,
               (
               to
               wit
            
             Num.
             8.
             10.
             
             )
             
               thus
               much
               is
               manifest
               ,
               that
               when
               a
               Ch●rch
               hath
               no
               Elders
               ,
               But
               the
               first
               Elders
               themselves
               are
               to
               be
               ordained
               ,
               and
               this
               at
               such
               times
               and
               in
               such
               places
               ,
               where
               Elders
               cannot
               conveniently
               be
               borrowed
               from
               any
               other
               Churches
               ,
               in
               such
               case
               Imposition
               of
               hands
               may
               lawfully
               be
               performed
               by
               some
               principall
               men
               of
               the
               Congregation
               ,
               although
               they
               be
               not
               Elders
               by
               Office
               :
            
             In
             which
             place
             ,
             these
             words
             ,
             at
             such
             times
             ●nd
             in
             such
             places
             ,
             &c.
             though
             they
             contain
             a
             great
             part
             of
             the
             case
             ,
             wherein
             we
             think
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             may
             be
             performed
             by
             non-Elders
             ,
             yet
             they
             are
             wholy
             concealed
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             as
             if
             there
             had
             been
             none
             such
             ;
             for
             what
             purpose
             ,
             himselfe
             best
             knows
             .
             But
             this
             is
             apparent
             ,
             that
             by
             his
             concealment
             or
             omission
             ,
             the
             way
             is
             made
             more
             easie
             and
             the
             ground
             more
             rati●n●ll
             for
             that
             passage
             of
             his
             in
             the
             following
             page
             ,
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               What
               if
               there
               be
               no
               Elders
               in
               a
               single
               Congregation
               ?
               it
               will
               not
               follow
               therefore
               the
               people
               are
               to
               lay
               on
               hands
               ,
               except
               saith
               he
               ,
               there
               were
               no
               Elders
               in
               the
               land
               ,
               or
               nationall
               Church
               to
               lay
               on
               hands
               .
            
             Now
             had
             our
             words
             been
             delivered
             and
             set
             down
             by
             him
             as
             they
             came
             from
             us
             ,
             this
             speech
             and
             passage
             of
             his
             would
             have
             been
             uselesse
             ,
             and
             apparently
             brought
             in
             without
             cause
             :
             For
             to
             what
             purpose
             should
             he
             bring
             in
             this
             exception
             ,
             saying
             ,
             
               Except
               there
               be
               no
               Elders
               in
               the
               land
               &c.
            
             when
             our selves
             had
             prevented
             him
             in
             this
             ,
             by
             putting
             such
             an
             exception
             expresly
             into
             the
             prohibition
             ,
             which
             we
             deduce
             and
             gather
             from
             that
             scripture
             of
             Numb
             .
             8.
             10.
             
             Sure
             this
             had
             not
             needed
             ,
             but
             might
             have
             been
             spared
             ,
             if
             our
             words
             had
             been
             fully
             related
             :
             But
             by
             this
             omission
             and
             concealement
             ,
             his
             own
             speech
             hath
             more
             appearance
             of
             ground
             and
             reason
             in
             it
             ,
             then
             otherwise
             it
             would
             have
             had
             ,
             and
             our
             apprehension
             doth
             not
             appear
             to
             his
             reader
             as
             indeed
             it
             is
             ,
             nor
             as
             himself
             received
             it
             from
             us
             in
             that
             our
             answer
             .
             Which
             we
             have
             reason
             to
             take
             somwhat
             unkindly
             from
             him
             ,
             and
             the
             rather
             because
             it
             is
             not
             only
             once
             ,
             but
             twise
             at
             the
             least
             ,
             that
             we
             have
             thus
             expressed
             our selves
             in
             that
             answer
             :
             once
             in
             the
             words
             which
             I
             have
             here
             above
             repeated
             and
             transcribed
             ,
             and
             again
             in
             pag.
             49.
             where
             speaking
             again
             of
             this
             same
             scripture
             ,
             Numb
             .
             8.
             v.
             10.
             
             
               We
               say
               thus
               ,
               that
               we
               have
               shewed
               from
               that
               scripture
               ,
               that
               if
               there
               be
               no
               Elders
               as
               at
               the
               first
               ,
               nor
               any
               that
               can
               conveniently
               be
               gotten
               from
               other
               Churches
               ,
               then
               imposition
               of
               hands
               may
               lawfully
               be
               performed
               by
               others
               :
            
             Neverthelesse
             though
             we
             have
             thus
             expressed
             our selves
             ,
             once
             and
             a
             second
             time
             ,
             yet
             M.
             Rutherford
             doth
             not
             once
             give
             notice
             hereof
             unto
             his
             reader
             ,
             for
             ought
             that
             I
             can
             find
             ;
             but
             still
             passing
             by
             these
             words
             of
             borrowing
             Elders
             from
             other
             Churches
             ,
             doth
             take
             advantage
             of
             the
             want
             thereof
             ,
             which
             indeed
             are
             not
             wanting
             in
             our
             Churches
             ,
             which
             he
             deals
             against
             ,
             but
             twise
             at
             the
             least
             are
             plainly
             expressed
             therein
             ,
             and
             would
             not
             have
             been
             wanting
             in
             this
             passage
             ,
             which
             here
             he
             sets
             down
             as
             ours
             ,
             if
             himself
             had
             not
             concealed
             and
             suppressed
             the
             same
             .
             Now
             to
             leave
             out
             those
             words
             of
             ours
             ,
             which
             we
             have
             plainly
             expressed
             two
             severall
             times
             at
             the
             least
             ,
             and
             then
             to
             make
             advantage
             for
             himselfe
             against
             us
             for
             want
             thereof
             ,
             whether
             this
             be
             not
             such
             measure
             as
             we
             have
             cause
             to
             take
             unkindly
             ,
             let
             himself
             and
             others
             consider
             .
             The
             third
             particular
             of
             adding
             words
             which
             never
             came
             from
             us
             ,
             I
             will
             briefly
             passe
             over
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             of
             lesse
             moment
             ,
             as
             not
             so
             much
             misrepresenting
             our
             meaning
             ;
             yet
             I
             conceive
             those
             words
             ,
             
               it
               (
               by
               Ordination
               )
               is
               not
               to
               be
               tyed
               to
               the
               Presbytery
               
               alone
               ,
               which
               here
               are
               presented
               to
               the
               Reader
               as
               ours
               ,
               are
               not
               at
               all
               to
               be
               found
               in
               our
               writing
               :
            
             but
             I
             will
             not
             insist
             on
             this
             ,
             but
             come
             to
             consider
             of
             his
             answer
             .
          
           
             There
             is
             not
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             a
             place
             in
             all
             the
             word
             of
             God
             ,
             where
             people
             conser●e
             Ordination
             to
             the
             Pastors
             of
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             therefore
             our
             brethren
             flee
             to
             the
             Old
             Testament
             to
             prove
             it
             from
             the
             Levites
             ,
             who
             received
             Imposition
             of
             bands
             from
             the
             Children
             of
             Israel
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             We
             have
             given
             a
             reason
             ,
             why
             no
             such
             scripture
             can
             be
             expected
             in
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             viz.
             because
             in
             those
             times
             Elders
             were
             not
             wanting
             ;
             for
             there
             were
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Apostolike
             men
             ,
             who
             were
             Elders
             in
             all
             Churches
             :
             and
             say
             we
             ,
             
               we
               do
               willingly
               grant
               ,
               that
               where
               Elders
               are
               not
               wanting
               ,
               Imposition
               of
               hands
               is
               to
               be
               performed
               by
               the
               Elders
               :
               Ans
               .
            
             p.
             49.
             
             Now
             for
             our
             brethren
             to
             require
             of
             us
             an
             example
             of
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             performed
             without
             Elders
             in
             the
             Apostles
             times
             ,
             in
             which
             times
             there
             were
             Elders
             to
             be
             had
             ,
             this
             we
             think
             to
             be
             unreasonable
             ,
             first
             it
             is
             our
             opinion
             ,
             that
             when
             Elders
             are
             to
             be
             had
             ,
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             is
             not
             to
             be
             performed
             without
             those
             Elders
             ,
             but
             by
             them
             .
          
           
             Moreover
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             such
             a
             disparagement
             to
             our
             cause
             ,
             that
             the
             scripture
             of
             the
             New
             Testament
             affords
             no
             example
             of
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             by
             the
             people
             ,
             how
             will
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             free
             his
             own
             way
             from
             another
             objection
             ,
             which
             we
             think
             as
             sore
             and
             weighty
             against
             the
             same
             ,
             as
             this
             which
             they
             think
             of
             so
             much
             weight
             against
             us
             ?
             The
             objection
             I
             mean
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             not
             any
             place
             in
             all
             the
             scripture
             of
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             where
             ordinary
             Pastors
             or
             Elders
             Imposed
             hands
             on
             ordinary
             Pastors
             or
             Elders
             ;
             but
             all
             the
             examples
             in
             scripture
             concerning
             this
             matter
             are
             such
             ,
             where
             either
             the
             persons
             Imposing
             ,
             or
             the
             persons
             on
             whom
             hands
             were
             Imposed
             ,
             or
             both
             ,
             were
             officers
             of
             extraordinary
             note
             and
             degree
             ,
             such
             as
             now
             are
             not
             extant
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             but
             are
             ceased
             long
             again
             :
             Not
             that
             I
             deny
             ,
             but
             an
             argument
             may
             be
             taken
             from
             those
             examples
             for
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             in
             these
             dayes
             :
             but
             the
             thing
             I
             stand
             upon
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             no
             example
             can
             be
             given
             from
             scripture
             directly
             parallel
             ,
             to
             the
             way
             which
             our
             brethren
             in
             these
             dayes
             do
             practise
             and
             allow
             ,
             but
             some
             dissonancy
             will
             be
             found
             therein
             :
             from
             their
             way
             as
             well
             (
             and
             perhaps
             as
             much
             )
             as
             from
             the
             way
             of
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             performed
             by
             the
             people
             in
             some
             cases
             :
             let
             them
             tell
             us
             of
             Act.
             6.
             v.
             6.
             and
             14.
             23.
             and
             
               1.
               
               Tim.
            
             5.
             22.
             and
             we
             answer
             the
             persons
             imposing
             hands
             in
             those
             places
             were
             Apostles
             and
             Evangelists
             ,
             such
             as
             our
             brethren
             are
             not
             ,
             nor
             do
             so
             account
             themselves
             .
             Let
             them
             name
             Act.
             13.
             3.
             and
             1
             Tim.
             4.
             14.
             and
             we
             answer
             ,
             the
             persons
             on
             whom
             hands
             were
             there
             laid
             were
             the
             like
             ,
             even
             Apostles
             and
             Evangelists
             ,
             whatever
             the
             imposers
             were
             ,
             and
             therefore
             neither
             will
             these
             places
             perfectly
             suit
             the
             case
             ▪
             So
             that
             if
             we
             could
             give
             no
             example
             in
             the
             New
             Testament
             of
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             performed
             in
             some
             cases
             by
             the
             people
             ,
             we
             think
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             and
             out
             brethren
             of
             his
             way
             might
             be
             favourable
             to
             us
             for
             their
             own
             sake
             .
          
           
             Yet
             for
             the
             justification
             of
             our
             way
             ,
             and
             for
             further
             answer
             to
             this
             passage
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             we
             have
             this
             to
             say
             further
             ,
             that
             an
             example
             in
             the
             Old
             Testament
             of
             a
             practise
             not
             abolished
             in
             the
             New
             as
             ceremoniall
             ,
             typicall
             ,
             or
             of
             some
             peculiar
             reason
             specially
             concerning
             those
             times
             and
             peoples
             ,
             but
             of
             morall
             equity
             and
             reason
             ;
             such
             an
             example
             we
             think
             a
             sufficient
             warrant
             unto
             us
             ,
             for
             the
             like
             practise
             upon
             the
             like
             occasion
             in
             these
             dayes
             :
             This
             I
             thinke
             Mr
             Rutherford
             must
             acknowledge
             ,
             for
             else
             he
             shall
             loose
             many
             arguments
             which
             he
             frequently
             useth
             in
             this
             Treatise
             ,
             from
             the
             example
             of
             
               Asa
               ,
               Hezekiah
               ,
               Josiah
            
             ,
             and
             others
             in
             the
             Old
             Testament
             ,
             for
             the
             proving
             of
             things
             to
             
             be
             practised
             in
             the
             New
             :
             And
             else
             himself
             and
             we
             all
             shall
             loose
             the
             argument
             for
             Pedobaptisme
             which
             is
             taken
             from
             Circumcision
             .
             Yea
             ,
             and
             which
             is
             more
             ,
             if
             it
             were
             not
             thus
             ,
             the
             Apostles
             arguing
             would
             not
             be
             strong
             ,
             who
             do
             frequently
             argue
             from
             the
             examples
             of
             the
             Old
             Testament
             to
             confirm
             and
             prove
             truth
             and
             vertue
             ,
             and
             to
             reprove
             and
             to
             condemn
             the
             contra●y
             in
             the
             New
             :
             to
             instance
             in
             no
             more
             but
             1
             
               Cor.
               9.
               10.
               2.
               
               Heb.
            
             3.
             24.
             which
             examples
             ,
             together
             with
             that
             saying
             ,
             
               Rom.
               15.
               4.
               
               Whatsoever
               was
               written
               in
               former
               time
               ,
               was
               written
               for
               our
               learning
            
             ;
             and
             many
             more
             that
             might
             be
             alledged
             ,
             do
             abundantly
             and
             plainly
             prove
             the
             point
             in
             hand
             :
             And
             therefore
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             should
             bear
             with
             us
             ,
             if
             we
             somtimes
             argue
             from
             examples
             of
             the
             Old
             Testament
             .
          
           
             As
             for
             that
             which
             followeth
             ,
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               But
               our
               brethren
               hold
               that
               the
               calling
               of
               the
               Levites
               and
               of
               the
               Pastors
               of
               the
               New
               Testament
               are
               different
               ,
               as
               the
               officers
               and
               Churches
               of
               the
               Jewish
               and
               Christian
               Churches
               are
               different
            
             ;
             the
             answer
             is
             ,
             that
             I
             do
             not
             remember
             that
             we
             have
             spoken
             one
             word
             of
             this
             matter
             ,
             either
             one
             way
             or
             other
             ;
             nor
             doth
             he
             mention
             any
             place
             where
             we
             have
             spoken
             ought
             of
             these
             things
             .
             And
             for
             the
             thing
             it selfe
             ,
             though
             many
             differences
             may
             be
             assigned
             between
             the
             Levites
             and
             Pastors
             of
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             and
             between
             the
             Jewish
             and
             Christian
             Churches
             ,
             yet
             I
             know
             no
             such
             difference
             between
             them
             ,
             but
             that
             in
             things
             which
             are
             of
             generall
             and
             common
             nature
             concerning
             them
             both
             ,
             in
             those
             we
             may
             lawfully
             argue
             from
             them
             and
             their
             times
             ,
             unto
             our selves
             and
             our
             times
             .
             If
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             know
             we
             have
             given
             any
             such
             difference
             as
             will
             not
             suffer
             us
             thus
             to
             argue
             ,
             when
             he
             shall
             expresse
             the
             same
             ,
             we
             may
             consider
             further
             thereof
             .
          
           
             Our
             brethren
             grant
             pag.
             49.
             that
             it
             wanteth
             all
             example
             in
             the
             New
             Testament
             that
             the
             people
             lay
             on
             hands
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             And
             we
             have
             also
             in
             the
             same
             pag.
             49.
             rendred
             the
             reason
             hereof
             ,
             viz.
             because
             Elders
             then
             were
             not
             wanting
             :
             Why
             then
             did
             not
             our
             brothers
             ingenuity
             so
             farre
             prevaile
             with
             him
             as
             to
             mention
             this
             ,
             when
             he
             mentioned
             the
             other
             ?
             however
             yet
             this
             he
             may
             be
             pleased
             to
             observe
             ,
             that
             as
             we
             grant
             the
             thing
             he
             speaks
             of
             ,
             so
             themselves
             ,
             I
             think
             must
             grant
             also
             ,
             that
             it
             wanteth
             all
             example
             in
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             where
             ordinary
             Elders
             do
             Impose
             hands
             on
             ordinary
             Elders
             :
             for
             my
             part
             I
             remember
             none
             ,
             nor
             do
             I
             remember
             that
             themselves
             have
             yet
             produced
             any
             .
          
           
             These
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             Numb
             .
             8.
             were
             Elders
             ,
             and
             our
             brethren
             say
             it
             is
             like
             they
             were
             ;
             but
             1.
             
             They
             did
             not
             as
             Elders
             :
             2.
             
             But
             as
             representing
             the
             people
             ;
             not
             as
             Elders
             Civill
             ,
             for
             that
             belonged
             to
             Aaron
             and
             his
             Sonnes
             ,
             Levit.
             8.
             else
             it
             will
             follow
             that
             where
             a
             Church
             hath
             no
             magistrates
             to
             lay
             on
             hands
             ,
             there
             the
             Church
             may
             doe
             it
             :
             Nor
             did
             they
             lay
             on
             hands
             as
             Ecclesiasticall
             Elders
             ,
             because
             what
             these
             which
             laid
             on
             hands
             did
             ,
             they
             did
             as
             from
             the
             Congregation
             :
             For
             1.
             these
             Levites
             were
             taken
             in
             stead
             of
             the
             first
             born
             of
             Israel
             ,
             and
             not
             instead
             of
             the
             first
             born
             of
             the
             Elders
             only
             ,
             Numb
             .
             3.
             40
             ,
             41.
             2
             
             They
             were
             presented
             to
             the
             Lord
             as
             an
             offering
             of
             the
             Children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             not
             of
             the
             Elders
             onely
             .
             3.
             
             When
             the
             multitude
             brought
             an
             oblation
             ,
             the
             Elders
             put
             their
             hands
             on
             the
             heads
             of
             the
             sacrifice
             ,
             Levit.
             4.
             15.
             instead
             of
             all
             the
             multitude
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             In
             relating
             this
             passage
             ,
             our
             meaning
             is
             exceedingly
             mistaken
             ,
             and
             both
             our
             meaning
             and
             our
             words
             represented
             farre
             amisse
             unto
             the
             reader
             :
             the
             particulars
             which
             in
             this
             respect
             may
             be
             excepted
             against
             ,
             are
             such
             as
             these
             .
          
           
             1.
             
             That
             reporting
             us
             to
             say
             ,
             it
             is
             like
             they
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             were
             Elders
             ,
             he
             there
             breaks
             off
             the
             speech
             ;
             and
             so
             suppresseth
             that
             which
             follows
             ;
             wherein
             we
             first
             of
             all
             do
             
             give
             an
             explication
             in
             what
             respect
             they
             might
             be
             said
             to
             be
             Elders
             ,
             viz.
             as
             being
             the
             chiefe
             and
             principall
             members
             of
             the
             Congregation
             ;
             and
             next
             of
             all
             we
             do
             adde
             ,
             that
             neverthelesse
             therein
             example
             doth
             prove
             the
             point
             ,
             if
             two
             things
             be
             considered
             which
             there
             we
             do
             expresse
             .
             But
             both
             these
             particulars
             ,
             I
             mean
             ,
             both
             the
             explication
             and
             the
             addition
             or
             exception
             ,
             are
             wholly
             suppressed
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             and
             so
             the
             concession
             ;
             It
             is
             like
             they
             were
             Elders
             ,
             is
             left
             standing
             alone
             by
             it selfe
             .
          
           
             2.
             
             He
             reports
             us
             to
             say
             ,
             
               they
               did
               it
               not
               as
               Elders
               civill
               :
               for
               that
               belonged
               to
               Aaron
               and
               his
               Sons
            
             ;
             wherein
             he
             fathers
             on
             us
             a
             palpable
             errour
             ,
             of
             accounting
             Aaron
             ,
             and
             his
             sonnes
             to
             be
             Elders
             civill
             ,
             or
             magistrates
             ,
             which
             never
             came
             into
             our
             thoughts
             :
             nay
             it
             was
             so
             farre
             from
             us
             that
             we
             plainly
             said
             the
             contrary
             ,
             in
             that
             very
             place
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             Elders
             Ecclesiasticall
             .
             Our
             words
             are
             these
             ,
             If
             they
             ,
             (
             that
             is
             ,
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             )
             
               did
               it
               as
               Elders
               ,
               then
               either
               as
               Elders
               and
               governours
               ecclesiasticall
               ,
               or
               as
               civill
               governours
               :
               but
               not
               the
               first
               ,
               for
               that
               charge
               belonged
               to
               Aaron
               and
               his
               sonnes
               :
            
             Levit.
             8.
             
               and
               these
               Levites
               now
               ordained
            
             .
             In
             which
             words
             we
             plainly
             ascribe
             to
             Aaron
             and
             his
             sonnes
             the
             charge
             of
             Elders
             and
             Governours
             Ecclesiasticall
             ,
             but
             not
             of
             civill
             governours
             ,
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             is
             pleased
             to
             report
             .
          
           
             3.
             
             In
             these
             words
             ,
             
               Else
               it
               will
               follow
               ,
               that
               where
               a
               Church
               hath
               no
               magistrates
               to
               lay
               on
               hands
               ,
               there
               the
               Church
               may
               do
               it
            
             ;
             our
             words
             are
             so
             miserably
             mangled
             ,
             that
             no
             tolerable
             sence
             can
             appeare
             :
             for
             here
             is
             expressed
             an
             inference
             or
             consequence
             ,
             that
             must
             follow
             ,
             and
             yet
             no
             ground
             or
             antecedent
             at
             all
             from
             which
             it
             should
             follow
             ,
             which
             is
             to
             represent
             us
             to
             the
             world
             as
             men
             that
             were
             
               loesi
               cerebro
            
             .
             For
             men
             that
             were
             in
             their
             right
             wits
             ,
             I
             conceive
             ,
             would
             scarcely
             ever
             argue
             in
             this
             fashion
             ,
             as
             here
             we
             are
             reported
             to
             do
             :
             But
             our
             words
             are
             these
             ,
             
               If
               the
               second
               be
               said
               ,
               viz.
               that
               the
               children
               of
               Israel
               did
               lay
               on
               hands
               as
               civill
               governours
               ,
               then
               it
               will
               follow
               that
               civill
               magistrates
               ,
               though
               no
               Church-officers
               may
               Impose
               hands
               in
               Ordination
               of
               Church-officers
               ,
               and
               so
               the
               point
               is
               gained
               :
               (
               viz.
            
             that
             Church-officers
             may
             be
             ordained
             by
             those
             that
             are
             no
             Church-officers
             )
             which
             we
             do
             further
             manifest
             in
             the
             following
             words
             in
             this
             manner
             :
             
               If
               the
               magistrate
               may
               doe
               it
               ,
               then
               it
               will
               follow
               that
               a
               Church
               that
               hath
               no
               magistrate
               may
               perform
               this
               action
               by
               other
               the
               fittest
               instrument●
               she
               hath
            
             ;
             For
             which
             we
             there
             give
             this
             ground
             ,
             
               for
               that
               this
               is
               not
               a
               work
               properly
               tyed
               to
               the
               magistrates
               office
               ,
               because
               then
               the
               Church
               in
               the
               Apostles
               times
               wanting
               magistrates
               ,
               could
               not
               have
               had
               officers
               ;
               the
               contrary
               whereof
               we
               say
               is
               manifest
               in
               the
               Scriptures
               ,
            
             Act.
             14.
             13.
             
             Tit.
             1.
             5.
             
             This
             is
             our
             manner
             of
             arguing
             in
             the
             place
             alledged
             ,
             which
             is
             farre
             different
             from
             that
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             reporteth
             as
             ours
             .
          
           
             4.
             
             Whereas
             he
             reports
             us
             to
             say
             ,
             
               Nor
               did
               they
               lay
               on
               hands
               as
               Ecclesiasticall
               Elders
               ,
               because
               what
               these
               which
               lay
               on
               hands
               did
               ,
               they
               did
               as
               from
               the
               Congregation
            
             ;
             in
             this
             he
             also
             reports
             us
             to
             speak
             quite
             besides
             our
             plain
             meaning
             and
             expresse
             words
             .
             For
             whereas
             ,
             he
             so
             sets
             down
             this
             sentence
             ,
             as
             that
             the
             latter
             clause
             or
             branch
             therein
             is
             made
             the
             reason
             of
             the
             former
             ;
             the
             truth
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             these
             clauses
             in
             the
             answer
             ,
             have
             no
             dependance
             the
             one
             upon
             the
             other
             at
             all
             ;
             but
             the
             former
             hath
             another
             reason
             given
             for
             it
             ,
             which
             here
             is
             not
             mentioned
             ,
             and
             the
             latter
             which
             is
             here
             mentioned
             as
             the
             reason
             of
             the
             former
             is
             not
             so
             mentioned
             by
             us
             ,
             but
             for
             another
             end
             and
             purpose
             .
          
           
             Touching
             the
             former
             of
             these
             two
             ,
             when
             we
             said
             that
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             did
             not
             impose
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             as
             ecclesiasticall
             Elders
             ,
             the
             reason
             we
             give
             for
             this
             saying
             is
             this
             ,
             because
             that
             charge
             was
             onely
             belonging
             to
             Aaron
             and
             his
             sonnes
             ,
             and
             
             those
             Levites
             now
             ordained
             :
             which
             reason
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             never
             mentions
             ,
             but
             mentions
             another
             speech
             ,
             as
             our
             reason
             ,
             which
             was
             delivered
             by
             us
             for
             another
             purpose
             .
             The
             like
             measure
             doth
             he
             afford
             to
             us
             in
             the
             second
             branch
             of
             the
             sentence
             by
             him
             expressed
             :
             For
             whereas
             we
             give
             two
             reasons
             of
             the
             main
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             that
             this
             example
             of
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             imposing
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             doth
             prove
             that
             in
             some
             cases
             ,
             non-officers
             may
             impose
             hands
             upon
             Church
             officers
             ,
             the
             one
             because
             what
             these
             children
             of
             Israel
             did
             ,
             they
             did
             it
             not
             as
             Elders
             ;
             the
             other
             that
             what
             they
             did
             ,
             they
             did
             it
             not
             for
             themselves
             alone
             ,
             but
             for
             all
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             applies
             not
             these
             two
             reasons
             to
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             as
             they
             were
             applyed
             by
             us
             ,
             but
             instead
             thereof
             makes
             one
             of
             them
             to
             be
             a
             reason
             of
             the
             other
             ,
             which
             was
             no
             part
             of
             our
             meaning
             ,
             nor
             could
             justly
             be
             gathered
             from
             our
             words
             .
          
           
             This
             being
             said
             for
             clearing
             this
             passage
             of
             ours
             from
             his
             manifold
             mistakes
             ,
             let
             us
             now
             heare
             his
             answer
             .
          
           
             Pag.
             49●
             .
             These
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             did
             it
             as
             a
             work
             peculiar
             to
             the
             Elders
             ,
             because
             the
             Elders
             were
             a
             part
             of
             the
             first
             borne
             ,
             who
             by
             office
             were
             Elders
             ,
             and
             in
             whose
             stead
             the
             Levites
             were
             assumed
             ,
             Numb
             .
             3.
             40
             ,
             41.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             the
             Elders
             were
             but
             a
             part
             of
             the
             first
             born
             ,
             then
             how
             could
             all
             the
             first
             born
             be
             Elders
             by
             office
             ?
             or
             if
             all
             the
             first
             born
             were
             by
             office
             Elders
             ,
             then
             how
             could
             the
             Elders
             be
             but
             a
             part
             of
             the
             first
             born
             ?
             These
             things
             seem
             not
             to
             be
             here
             .
             But
             be
             it
             so
             ,
             that
             the
             Elders
             were
             a
             part
             of
             the
             first
             born
             as
             here
             is
             affirmed
             ,
             how
             doth
             this
             prove
             that
             they
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             did
             it
             as
             a
             work
             peculiar
             to
             the
             Elders
             ?
             Is
             there
             any
             necessary
             or
             clear
             consequence
             in
             such
             a
             proposition
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             ,
             I
             see
             it
             not
             :
             but
             on
             the
             contrary
             ,
             I
             suppose
             it
             is
             certaine
             ,
             that
             the
             Elders
             might
             be
             part
             or
             all
             of
             the
             first
             born
             ,
             and
             yet
             they
             who
             did
             the
             work
             of
             imposing
             hands
             might
             neither
             impose
             as
             Elders
             ,
             nor
             of
             necessity
             be
             Elders
             .
             Though
             in
             the
             sense
             expressed
             in
             the
             answer
             ,
             I
             will
             not
             deny
             but
             there
             might
             be
             Elders
             ,
             that
             is
             chiefe
             and
             principall
             members
             of
             the
             Congregation
             .
             But
             if
             this
             were
             granted
             in
             the
             sense
             expressed
             ,
             must
             it
             needs
             follow
             that
             they
             imposed
             hands
             as
             Elders
             ,
             and
             as
             Elders
             by
             office
             too
             ?
             Can
             a
             man
             sustain
             no
             relation
             ,
             but
             all
             his
             actions
             must
             be
             actions
             of
             that
             relation
             ?
             Cannot
             a
             man
             be
             an
             husband
             ,
             or
             a
             parent
             ,
             &c.
             but
             his
             actions
             of
             plowing
             sowing
             ,
             &c.
             must
             needs
             be
             performed
             by
             him
             ,
             as
             he
             is
             a
             husband
             ,
             or
             parent
             ?
             Cannot
             a
             minister
             pray
             in
             his
             family
             ,
             instruct
             his
             children
             ,
             or
             receive
             the
             bread
             and
             wine
             in
             the
             Lords
             supper
             in
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             but
             all
             these
             things
             must
             be
             performed
             by
             him
             as
             a
             Minister
             ?
             I
             suppose
             that
             none
             will
             say
             that
             this
             doth
             follow
             :
             and
             if
             not
             ,
             then
             suppose
             that
             these
             who
             imposed
             hands
             were
             Elders
             ,
             how
             doth
             it
             follow
             ,
             that
             when
             they
             imposed
             hands
             ,
             they
             did
             impose
             as
             Elders
             ?
          
           
             Else
             the
             Church
             of
             Israel
             being
             a
             constituted
             Church
             before
             this
             time
             wanted
             officers
             ,
             which
             is
             against
             all
             truth
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Else
             ,
             else
             what
             ?
             let
             the
             antecedent
             or
             ground
             of
             this
             inference
             be
             taken
             from
             the
             words
             preceding
             ,
             or
             from
             any
             of
             them
             (
             and
             whence
             else
             to
             take
             it
             I
             cannot
             tell
             )
             and
             no
             necessity
             of
             consequence
             I
             think
             will
             appear
             .
             The
             words
             preceding
             are
             no
             more
             but
             these
             ,
             
               These
               who
               laid
               on
               hands
               ,
               did
               it
               as
               a
               worke
               peculiar
               to
               the
               Elders
               ,
               because
               the
               Elders
               were
               a
               part
               of
               the
               first
               born
               ,
               who
               by
               office
               were
               Elders
               ,
               and
               in
               whose
               steed
               the
               Levites
               were
               assumed
               ,
               and
               then
               comes
               in
               this
               inference
               ,
               else
               the
               Church
               of
               Israel
               wanted
               officers
               .
            
             Now
             how
             this
             must
             needs
             follow
             upon
             any
             or
             all
             of
             those
             preceding
             ,
             I
             see
             not
             .
             Not
             that
             I
             deny
             the
             truth
             of
             all
             those
             preceding
             words
             ,
             for
             of
             some
             of
             them
             I
             think
             otherwise
             ,
             
             but
             supposing
             that
             were
             all
             true
             ,
             which
             is
             more
             then
             doth
             yet
             appeare
             ,
             yet
             here
             is
             that
             which
             I
             am
             doubtfull
             in
             ,
             whether
             this
             inference
             must
             needs
             follow
             upon
             the
             same
             ?
             For
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             the
             Church
             of
             Israel
             might
             have
             officers
             ,
             and
             yet
             the
             particulars
             here
             mentioned
             not
             be
             all
             true
             ,
             but
             some
             of
             them
             false
             notwithstanding
             .
             At
             least
             wise
             if
             they
             were
             true
             ,
             yet
             the
             reason
             here
             used
             would
             not
             inferre
             so
             much
             .
             For
             ,
             to
             consider
             a
             little
             of
             the
             particulars
             :
             The
             Church
             of
             Israel
             had
             officers
             ,
             ergo
             ,
             the
             Elders
             were
             a
             part
             of
             the
             first
             born
             (
             which
             is
             one
             of
             the
             particulars
             )
             The
             Church
             of
             Israel
             had
             officers
             ;
             ergo
             the
             first
             born
             were
             Elders
             by
             office
             ;
             (
             which
             is
             another
             )
             The
             Church
             of
             Israel
             had
             officers
             :
             Ergo
             ,
             the
             Levites
             were
             assumed
             instead
             of
             the
             first
             born
             (
             which
             is
             another
             of
             them
             )
             is
             there
             any
             necessity
             of
             consequence
             in
             any
             of
             these
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             I
             see
             it
             not
             :
             but
             suppose
             they
             were
             in
             themselves
             true
             ,
             yet
             ,
             the
             medium
             here
             used
             doth
             not
             proove
             them
             so
             to
             be
             .
             And
             for
             that
             which
             is
             the
             first
             ,
             and
             as
             I
             conceive
             the
             cheif
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             these
             who
             imposed
             hands
             did
             it
             as
             a
             work
             peculiar
             to
             Elders
             ,
             must
             this
             needs
             be
             granted
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             granted
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             of
             Israel
             was
             not
             without
             officers
             ?
             I
             see
             no
             necessity
             of
             granting
             this
             neither
             ,
             but
             the
             contrary
             to
             me
             seems
             possible
             enough
             ,
             that
             thee
             might
             be
             officers
             afore
             this
             time
             in
             that
             Church
             ;
             and
             yet
             what
             was
             now
             done
             by
             them
             who
             imposed
             hands
             ,
             not
             be
             done
             by
             them
             ,
             as
             Elders
             by
             office
             ,
             but
             as
             prime
             and
             principall
             members
             of
             the
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             For
             the
             clearing
             whereof
             a
             little
             further
             ,
             we
             may
             observe
             that
             they
             who
             imposed
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             are
             not
             here
             called
             Elders
             ,
             nor
             rulers
             ,
             nor
             officers
             ,
             nor
             first
             born
             ,
             nor
             any
             such
             like
             ,
             but
             the
             term
             whereby
             they
             are
             expressed
             is
             this
             ,
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ;
             
               The
               children
               of
               Israel
               ,
               saith
               the
               Lord
               ,
               shall
               put
               their
               hands
               upon
               the
               Levites
               ,
            
             Numb
             .
             8.
             10.
             
             Now
             this
             term
             being
             used
             in
             the
             9.
             verse
             imediately
             preceding
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             11.
             vers
             .
             imediately
             following
             ,
             yet
             in
             neither
             of
             both
             can
             it
             be
             meant
             of
             Elders
             and
             officers
             alone
             ,
             but
             in
             both
             verses
             is
             undoubtedly
             meant
             of
             all
             the
             body
             of
             the
             Congregation
             :
             and
             therefore
             if
             the
             context
             and
             circumstances
             of
             the
             place
             be
             regarded
             ,
             these
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             who
             imposed
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             ,
             v.
             10.
             cannot
             in
             that
             act
             be
             considered
             under
             the
             not●on
             of
             officers
             .
             Sure
             it
             is
             when
             the
             verse
             before
             tells
             us
             that
             the
             whole
             assembly
             of
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             must
             be
             gathered
             together
             ,
             and
             the
             verse
             following
             tells
             us
             that
             Aaron
             must
             offer
             the
             Levites
             for
             an
             offering
             of
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ;
             in
             neither
             of
             these
             can
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             be
             understand
             of
             the
             officers
             alone
             ,
             but
             the
             whole
             Congregation
             is
             meant
             hereby
             in
             both
             verses
             :
             reason
             therefore
             requires
             that
             this
             tenth
             verse
             standing
             in
             the
             midst
             between
             the
             other
             two
             ,
             the
             word
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             being
             used
             therein
             should
             be
             taken
             in
             the
             same
             sense
             in
             this
             verse
             ,
             in
             which
             it
             is
             taken
             in
             the
             verse
             before
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             verse
             that
             comes
             after
             .
          
           
             Nay
             and
             further
             ,
             he
             that
             shall
             peruse
             this
             chapter
             Numb
             .
             8.
             may
             easily
             finde
             that
             this
             word
             ,
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             is
             used
             therein
             no
             lesse
             then
             fifteen
             or
             sixteen
             severall
             times
             ;
             and
             sometimes
             foure
             or
             five
             times
             in
             one
             verse
             ;
             and
             yet
             of
             all
             these
             ,
             I
             think
             here
             is
             not
             so
             much
             as
             one
             ,
             where
             it
             can
             be
             understood
             of
             the
             Elders
             and
             Officers
             as
             such
             ,
             but
             is
             used
             to
             signifie
             all
             the
             Congregation
             .
             And
             therefore
             to
             give
             such
             a
             singular
             interpretation
             of
             this
             word
             ,
             in
             v.
             10.
             so
             far
             different
             from
             the
             sense
             of
             the
             same
             word
             ,
             in
             all
             the
             rest
             of
             the
             verses
             both
             before
             and
             after
             ,
             and
             those
             being
             not
             only
             one
             or
             two
             ,
             but
             so
             very
             many
             ;
             this
             kind
             of
             practise
             and
             interpretation
             had
             need
             to
             be
             builded
             upon
             very
             plain
             and
             pregnant
             ,
             very
             cleare
             and
             cogent
             reason
             and
             demonstration
             ,
             or
             else
             our
             brethren
             may
             excuse
             us
             if
             we
             be
             not
             over
             hasty
             and
             forward
             to
             receive
             it
             .
          
           
           
             Again
             ,
             the
             ninth
             and
             eleventh
             verses
             tell
             us
             plainly
             ,
             that
             these
             Levites
             were
             to
             be
             offered
             to
             the
             Lord
             for
             an
             offering
             ,
             not
             of
             the
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             but
             of
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             even
             of
             all
             the
             assembly
             of
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             and
             other
             scriptures
             tell
             us
             as
             plainly
             that
             all
             offerings
             were
             to
             be
             presented
             with
             the
             imposition
             of
             his
             hands
             ,
             whose
             the
             offering
             was
             ,
             Levit.
             1.
             3
             ,
             4
             ,
             and
             4.
             24
             ,
             29
             ,
             33.
             whereby
             it
             seems
             evident
             ,
             that
             these
             children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             who
             imposed
             hands
             on
             these
             Levites
             ,
             at
             this
             time
             when
             they
             were
             offered
             for
             an
             offering
             ,
             were
             the
             whole
             Congregation
             or
             some
             in
             your
             name
             and
             stead
             ,
             sith
             these
             Levites
             were
             an
             offering
             of
             the
             whole
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Wee
             grant
             the
             magistrates
             laid
             not
             on
             hands
             ,
             but
             they
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             ,
             did
             it
             as
             Ecclesiasticall
             Elders
             .
          
           
             Reconcile
             this
             with
             that
             pag.
             188
             l.
             1.
             where
             t
             is
             said
             ,
             
               the
               Princes
               and
               heads
               of
               tribes
               laid
               hands
               on
               them
               :
            
             now
             what
             were
             these
             Princes
             and
             heads
             of
             tribes
             ,
             but
             magistrates
             ?
             and
             if
             they
             were
             Princes
             and
             Magistrates
             how
             could
             they
             be
             considered
             in
             this
             act
             as
             Ecclesiasticall
             Elders
             ?
          
           
             The
             reasons
             against
             this
             conclude
             not
             .
             
               The
               first
               reason
               concludeth
               not
            
             .
          
           
             Ans
             .
             Here
             again
             our
             meaning
             is
             presented
             amisse
             to
             the
             reader
             ;
             for
             those
             three
             reasons
             of
             ours
             were
             given
             by
             us
             to
             prove
             another
             point
             ,
             and
             not
             this
             to
             which
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             applyes
             therein
             ,
             as
             is
             plainly
             to
             be
             seen
             in
             answer
             ,
             pag.
             46
             ,
             47.
             where
             the
             reader
             may
             perceive
             that
             those
             reasons
             were
             brought
             to
             shew
             ,
             that
             when
             the
             children
             of
             Israel
             imposed
             hands
             ,
             if
             these
             children
             of
             Israel
             were
             not
             all
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             yet
             what
             they
             performed
             herein
             was
             for
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             not
             for
             themselves
             onely
             :
             And
             if
             those
             reasons
             prove
             this
             ,
             as
             I
             hope
             they
             doe
             ;
             it
             is
             no
             great
             disparagement
             to
             them
             not
             us
             ,
             if
             they
             prove
             not
             another
             point
             for
             which
             they
             were
             never
             intended
             .
             But
             let
             us
             hear
             the
             answer
             .
          
           
             The
             first
             reason
             concludeth
             not
             ,
             because
             those
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             were
             the
             first
             born
             ,
             who
             by
             office
             were
             Church-men
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             How
             shall
             we
             be
             sure
             that
             those
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             were
             the
             first
             born
             ?
             though
             I
             deny
             it
             not
             ,
             yet
             a
             bare
             affirmation
             proves
             not
             .
          
           
             Again
             ,
             suppose
             what
             here
             is
             affirmed
             were
             also
             sufficiently
             confirmed
             ,
             how
             is
             the
             point
             in
             question
             proved
             hereby
             ?
             for
             ,
             say
             they
             were
             the
             first
             born
             ,
             they
             might
             notwithstanding
             do
             what
             they
             did
             for
             all
             the
             people
             ,
             and
             not
             for
             themselves
             above
             .
          
           
             The
             other
             two
             reasons
             proves
             nothing
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Let
             them
             be
             applyed
             to
             the
             thing
             ,
             whereto
             they
             were
             intended
             and
             applyed
             by
             us
             ,
             and
             then
             let
             the
             reader
             judge
             .
             The
             position
             was
             ,
             that
             those
             who
             imposed
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             ,
             did
             it
             for
             the
             Congregation
             or
             in
             their
             stead
             .
             The
             first
             of
             the
             two
             reasons
             is
             ,
             that
             the
             Levites
             were
             the
             Congregations
             offerings
             ,
             and
             all
             offerings
             were
             to
             be
             presented
             with
             the
             imposition
             of
             his
             hands
             ,
             whose
             the
             offering
             was
             :
             The
             other
             is
             this
             ,
             that
             it
             was
             an
             usuall
             thing
             when
             the
             Congregation
             were
             to
             present
             an
             offering
             ,
             that
             the
             Elders
             should
             impose
             hands
             on
             the
             Congregations
             offering
             ,
             in
             the
             Congregations
             stead
             ,
             Levit.
             4.
             vers
             .
             14
             ,
             15.
             
             Now
             let
             the
             Prophets
             judge
             ,
             whether
             these
             reasons
             prove
             what
             they
             were
             brought
             to
             prove
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             they
             who
             imposed
             hands
             on
             the
             Levites
             did
             it
             for
             ,
             or
             in
             stead
             of
             the
             Congregation
             :
             or
             whether
             it
             be
             as
             our
             reverend
             brother
             affirms
             ,
             that
             these
             two
             reasons
             proves
             nothing
             :
             yet
             let
             us
             hear
             why
             they
             prove
             nothing
             .
          
           
             Because
             these
             who
             laid
             on
             hands
             ,
             did
             lay
             on
             hands
             as
             representing
             the
             whole
             Congregation
             .
             Alas
             it
             doth
             no
             wayes
             conclude
             that
             they
             laid
             not
             on
             hands
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             a
             worke
             peculiar
             to
             them
             〈◊〉
             Elders
             .
          
           
           
             Ans
             .
             If
             it
             doe
             not
             ,
             yet
             if
             our
             reasons
             do
             conclude
             that
             they
             did
             it
             instead
             of
             the
             Congregation
             ,
             we
             have
             our
             intent
             :
             But
             to
             follow
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             a
             little
             in
             digressing
             from
             the
             point
             ;
             why
             ,
             do
             not
             our
             reasons
             conclude
             this
             other
             ?
          
           
             The
             High-priest
             offered
             sacrifice
             ,
             first
             for
             his
             own
             sins
             ,
             and
             then
             for
             the
             peoples
             ;
             
               Heb.
               7.
               v.
            
             27.
             and
             so
             did
             represent
             the
             people
             ;
             but
             I
             hope
             it
             followeth
             not
             that
             therefore
             the
             Priest
             did
             not
             sacrifice
             as
             a
             Priest
             ,
             and
             by
             virtue
             of
             a
             peculiar
             office
             ,
             but
             only
             as
             a
             principall
             member
             of
             the
             Congregation
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             
               himself
               gives
               us
               a
               distinction
               which
               may
               be
               sufficient
               for
               answer
               to
               this
               passage
               .
            
             A
             representer
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             standeth
             for
             another
             either
             objectively
             or
             subjectively
             .
             The
             former
             of
             these
             is
             he
             that
             doth
             a
             busines
             for
             another
             ,
             or
             in
             
               rem
               ejus
            
             ,
             for
             his
             behalf
             and
             good
             ,
             as
             the
             eye
             seeth
             and
             the
             eare
             heareth
             for
             the
             whole
             body
             ;
             and
             thus
             objectively
             the
             Presbytery
             doth
             represent
             the
             people
             ,
             that
             is
             ,
             for
             your
             good
             and
             salvation
             of
             the
             people
             .
             The
             other
             representing
             another
             subjectively
             is
             when
             the
             representer
             hath
             its
             power
             from
             that
             which
             it
             representeth
             ,
             as
             he
             who
             carrieth
             the
             room
             and
             person
             of
             a
             King
             as
             an
             Ambassadour
             :
             but
             thus
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             the
             Presbytery
             or
             Eldership
             doth
             not
             represent
             the
             People
             .
             Due
             right
             of
             Presbyt
             .
             p.
             316
             ,
             317.
             
             
               Now
               as
               the
               Presbytery
               represents
               the
               people
               ,
               so
               may
               it
               be
               said
               of
               the
               Priest
               ,
            
             viz.
             
               that
               he
               represented
               the
               people
               only
               objectively
               ,
               for
               their
               good
               ,
               but
               not
               subjectively
               in
               their
               room
               and
               stead
               ,
               and
               therefore
               the
               cases
               are
               not
               alike
               ;
               for
               we
               think
               that
               what
               was
               done
               by
               those
               who
               imposed
               hands
               ,
            
             Numb
             .
             8.
             
               was
               not
               only
               done
               for
               the
               good
               of
               the
               children
               of
               Israel
               ,
               but
               also
               in
               their
               room
               and
               stead
               ,
               which
               he
               will
               not
               say
               of
               the
               Priest
               sacrificing
               for
               the
               people
               ,
               having
               already
               said
               the
               contrary
               of
               the
               Presbytery
               .
            
          
           
             Pag.
             493.
             
             You
             will
             say
             ,
             in
             a
             Church
             ,
             in
             an
             Iland
             ,
             one
             may
             be
             a
             Pastor
             without
             any
             ordination
             if
             the
             people
             elect
             him
             ,
             and
             there
             be
             no
             Elders
             to
             ordain
             ;
             I
             answer
             it
             is
             true
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             If
             this
             be
             true
             ,
             then
             what
             becomnes
             of
             that
             which
             was
             said
             in
             the
             precedent
             page
             ,
             
               That
               though
               imposition
               of
               hands
               be
               not
               so
               essentiall
               ,
               as
               that
               a
               Minister
               can
               be
               no
               Minister
               without
               it
               ,
               yet
               for
               Ordination
               it
               is
               otherwise
               ,
               this
               being
               the
               authoritative
               calling
               of
               a
               Minister
               ,
               and
               the
               other
               but
               a
               rite
               annexed
               to
               the
               calling
               .
               In
               which
               place
               he
               counts
               ordination
            
             so
             essentiall
             ,
             as
             that
             a
             Minister
             can
             be
             no
             Minister
             without
             it
             ,
             and
             yet
             in
             the
             very
             next
             page
             confesseth
             ,
             as
             we
             see
             ,
             that
             in
             some
             case
             one
             may
             be
             a
             Pastor
             without
             ordination
             :
             whereupon
             it
             must
             needs
             follow
             either
             that
             one
             may
             be
             a
             Pastor
             without
             any
             authoritative
             calling
             or
             else
             that
             ordination
             is
             in
             effect
             ,
             but
             the
             same
             with
             imposition
             of
             hands
             ,
             and
             so
             there
             is
             no
             such
             difference
             between
             them
             as
             is
             pretended
             .
          
           
             But
             so
             many
             Pastors
             send
             a
             Pastor
             to
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             though
             that
             Congregation
             never
             chuse
             him
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             
               Take
               your
               own
               words
               for
               answer
               pag.
            
             496.
             
             We
             never
             read
             that
             in
             the
             Apostles
             Church
             a
             man
             was
             obtruded
             upon
             the
             people
             against
             their
             will
             and
             therefore
             Election
             by
             the
             people
             in
             the
             Apostolike
             Church
             as
             
               Act.
               1.
               26.
               
               Act.
               6.
               2
               ,
               3
               ,
               4.
               
               Rev.
               2.
               1
               ,
               2.
               
               Act.
               20.
               v.
            
             28.
             must
             be
             our
             rule
             .
             Any
             election
             without
             the
             peoples
             consent
             must
             be
             no
             Election
             ,
             for
             if
             it
             please
             not
             the
             whole
             multitude
             as
             Act.
             6.
             5.
             it
             is
             not
             a
             choise
             .
             And
             in
             pag.
             465.
             he
             tells
             us
             that
             all
             incorporations
             have
             power
             by
             the
             law
             of
             nature
             to
             chuse
             their
             own
             rulers
             and
             officers
             ,
             and
             that
             Christ
             hath
             provided
             the
             same
             in
             an
             eminant
             manner
             for
             his
             Church
             .
             And
             therefore
             for
             this
             passage
             that
             many
             Pastor
             may
             send
             a
             Pastor
             to
             be
             Pastor
             to
             a
             Congregation
             ,
             though
             that
             Congregation
             never
             choose
             him
             ,
             we
             desire
             that
             he
             would
             take
             his
             own
             money
             for
             payment
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             CHAP.
             XXV
             .
          
           
             Whether
             a
             Ministers
             calling
             consist
             in
             Election
             or
             in
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             ,
             and
             whether
             of
             those
             is
             greater
             ,
             and
             whether
             is
             prior
             or
             posterior
             .
             Whether
             ,
             1
             Tim.
             4.
             14.
             
             Act.
             6.
             2
             ,
             3
             ,
             4.
             
             Act.
             13.
             1
             ,
             2
             ,
             3.
             do
             prove
             that
             the
             Ministers
             calling
             consists
             in
             imposition
             of
             hands
             by
             the
             Presbytery
             ,
             and
             that
             such
             imposition
             of
             hands
             is
             not
             a
             consumatory
             rite
             ,
             or
             benedictory
             signe
             .
             Also
             whether
             Rom.
             10.
             15.
             do
             prove
             that
             a
             man
             cannot
             be
             a
             Minister
             except
             some
             Presbytery
             ordain
             him
             afore
             the
             People
             chuse
             him
             ,
             and
             whether
             otherwise
             the
             people
             doe
             send
             a
             Minster
             to
             themselves
             :
             and
             whether
             the
             people
             of
             God
             may
             not
             aswell
             discern
             a
             mans
             fitnes
             to
             be
             ordained
             as
             his
             fitnes
             to
             be
             elected
             .
          
           
             PAg
             .
             493.
             
             If
             the
             people
             may
             elect
             Officers
             ,
             then
             in
             some
             cases
             they
             may
             ordaine
             them
             also
             ,
             because
             Ordination
             is
             lesse
             then
             election
             ,
             and
             dependeth
             upon
             it
             as
             a
             necessary
             antecedent
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             nothing
             but
             a
             consummation
             of
             election
             ,
             or
             the
             admission
             of
             a
             person
             into
             the
             possession
             of
             that
             office
             ,
             whereto
             he
             had
             right
             before
             by
             election
             .
             If
             then
             a
             single
             Congregation
             may
             elect
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             greater
             ,
             they
             may
             ordain
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             lesse
             .
             And
             for
             this
             he
             alledgeth
             the
             Answer
             pag.
             46
             ,
             47.
             
             And
             then
             gives
             answer
             thereto
             in
             these
             words
             ,
             Ordination
             is
             the
             more
             and
             Election
             the
             lesser
             ;
             for
             Ordination
             is
             an
             act
             authoritative
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             ,
             1.
             
             Tim.
             4.
             14.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Take
             Ordination
             as
             we
             take
             it
             for
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             on
             a
             Church
             officer
             ,
             and
             then
             we
             think
             it
             is
             lesse
             then
             Election
             ,
             as
             being
             but
             a
             Rite
             or
             Ceremony
             used
             at
             a
             Ministers
             entrance
             into
             his
             Office
             ,
             but
             not
             at
             all
             of
             the
             essence
             thereof
             .
             Nor
             are
             we
             alone
             ,
             or
             the
             first
             that
             have
             so
             thought
             :
             For
             to
             omit
             others
             ,
             he
             that
             wrote
             the
             book
             ,
             called
             the
             unbishoping
             of
             Timothy
             and
             Tytus
             affirmeth
             pag.
             114.
             
             
               That
               it
               is
               no
               essentiall
               ,
               but
               a
               ceremoniall
               part
               of
               Ordination
               ,
               which
               may
               be
               sufficiently
               made
               without
               it
               ,
               and
               saith
               that
            
             Angelus
             de
             Clavasio
             ,
             Peter
             Martyr
             
               and
               others
               both
               Papists
               and
               Protestants
               affirm
               the
               same
               .
               And
               in
               pag.
               116.
               he
               saith
               it
               is
               an
               act
               of
               service
               or
               Ministery
               ,
               not
               of
               Authority
               ,
               and
               no
               more
               then
               an
               externall
               complement
               or
               Ceremony
               ,
               alledging
               Dr.
            
             Ames
             
               &
               others
               for
               the
               same
               tenent
               .
            
             But
             now
             election
             is
             more
             then
             a
             ceremony
             that
             may
             be
             omitted
             ,
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             himself
             being
             judge
             :
             for
             in
             his
             pag.
             496.
             
             
               He
               tells
               us
               ,
               that
               in
               the
               Apostolike
               Churches
               ,
               a
               Minister
               was
               never
               obtruded
               upon
               the
               people
               against
               their
               will
               ,
               but
               that
               they
               still
               had
               the
               election
               of
               their
               Ministers
               ,
               and
               this
               he
               saith
               must
               be
               our
               rule
               ,
               so
               that
               any
               election
               without
               the
               peoples
               consent
               must
               be
               no
               election
               ,
               for
               if
               it
               please
               not
               the
               whole
               multitude
               it
               is
               not
               a
               choise
               .
               And
               in
               p.
               202.
               he
               tells
               us
               out
               of
               Chrysostome
               that
               all
               Election
               of
               Pastors
               is
               null
               without
               the
               consent
               of
               the
               people
               .
            
             Whereby
             it
             seems
             that
             Election
             is
             something
             essentiall
             ;
             and
             so
             consequently
             more
             then
             imposition
             of
             hands
             ,
             which
             is
             but
             a
             Rite
             or
             Ceremony
             ,
             which
             may
             be
             absent
             ,
             and
             yet
             a
             man
             have
             all
             the
             essentialls
             of
             a
             Minister
             notwithstanding
             .
             As
             for
             1
             Tim.
             4.
             14.
             the
             imposition
             of
             hands
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             there
             spoken
             of
             ,
             I
             conceive
             ,
             could
             not
             be
             any
             act
             of
             superior
             authority
             but
             onely
             an
             approbatory
             signe
             or
             
             rite
             which
             might
             be
             used
             by
             inferiours
             towards
             your
             superiours
             .
             For
             Timothy
             being
             an
             Evangelist
             ,
             how
             could
             any
             ordinary
             Presbytery
             have
             authority
             over
             him
             ,
             or
             give
             office
             or
             authority
             to
             him
             ?
             Besides
             it
             is
             not
             said
             that
             Timothy
             received
             his
             gift
             by
             the
             laying
             on
             of
             the
             hands
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             ,
             but
             by
             the
             Prophesie
             ,
             and
             by
             the
             laying
             on
             of
             Pauls
             hands
             ,
             and
             with
             the
             laying
             on
             the
             hands
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             .
             Now
             between
             those
             two
             phrases
             ,
             by
             the
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             ,
             and
             with
             the
             same
             ,
             there
             is
             great
             difference
             ,
             the
             one
             importing
             some
             cause
             or
             authority
             or
             power
             ,
             the
             other
             importing
             no
             more
             but
             an
             approbatory
             rite
             ,
             or
             a
             signe
             used
             in
             a
             solemne
             commending
             of
             one
             to
             God
             by
             Prayers
             :
             
               Altare
               Damascen
               .
               pag.
            
             161.
             of
             which
             more
             is
             to
             be
             seen
             in
             the
             plea
             for
             the
             Churches
             in
             New
             England
             part
             of
             the
             second
             chap.
             12.
             quest
             .
             2
             ,
             4.
             
          
           
             For
             ought
             I
             see
             the
             Authors
             might
             argue
             thus
             ,
             The
             people
             may
             ordaine
             :
             Ergo
             ,
             they
             may
             preach
             and
             baptise
             ,
             for
             all
             the
             three
             are
             Presbyteriall
             acts
             given
             to
             men
             in
             Office.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             We
             read
             in
             
               Mornay
               de
               Ecclesia
               chap.
               ●
            
             .
             that
             of
             old
             time
             it
             was
             an
             argument
             rise
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             he
             may
             baptise
             ,
             he
             may
             administer
             the
             Lords
             supper
             ;
             Ergo
             ,
             he
             may
             lay
             on
             hands
             ;
             but
             such
             arguing
             as
             Mr
             Rutherford
             useth
             ,
             they
             may
             lay
             on
             hands
             ,
             ergo
             ,
             they
             may
             baptise
             ;
             this
             we
             remember
             not
             that
             we
             have
             read
             in
             any
             authors
             ,
             except
             in
             him
             :
             Nor
             doe
             we
             think
             the
             consequence
             the
             same
             ,
             inasmuch
             as
             in
             the
             one
             the
             argument
             proceeds
             from
             the
             greater
             to
             the
             lesse
             ,
             and
             in
             the
             other
             from
             the
             lesse
             to
             the
             greater
             ,
             and
             yet
             affirmatively
             in
             both
             .
             Thus
             the
             argument
             is
             understood
             by
             the
             forenamed
             author
             of
             the
             unbishoping
             of
             Timothy
             and
             Tytus
             ,
             who
             in
             pag.
             100.
             speaking
             of
             these
             words
             of
             Mornay
             layes
             down
             the
             argument
             thus
             ,
             
               He
               can
               baptise
               ,
               he
               can
               consecrate
               and
               administer
               the
               Lords
               supper
               which
               are
               the
               greater
               and
               more
               honorable
               actions
               ,
            
             Ergo
             ,
             
               he
               may
               lay
               on
               hands
               which
               is
               the
               lesse
               :
            
             and
             this
             kind
             of
             arguing
             for
             my
             part
             ,
             I
             think
             to
             be
             good
             ▪
             but
             for
             that
             of
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             ,
             I
             see
             no
             more
             consequence
             therein
             ,
             then
             if
             one
             should
             say
             ,
             he
             that
             may
             doe
             the
             lesser
             ,
             may
             doe
             the
             greater
             also
             ▪
             in
             which
             I
             see
             ,
             no
             strength
             of
             consequence
             at
             all
             .
          
           
             Pag.
             493
             ,
             494.
             
             Whereas
             some
             say
             Act.
             6.
             3
             ,
             4
             ,
             5.
             
             Election
             of
             seven
             men
             to
             be
             Deacons
             goeth
             before
             Ordination
             or
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             ,
             v.
             6.
             
             Answ
             .
             Election
             of
             the
             people
             goeth
             before
             Ordination
             in
             the
             relation
             of
             Luke
             ,
             true
             ;
             Ergo
             ,
             Election
             is
             prior
             by
             order
             of
             nature
             ,
             it
             followeth
             not
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             place
             cannot
             be
             so
             satisfied
             ;
             for
             the
             text
             is
             very
             plain
             ,
             that
             these
             seven
             were
             elected
             by
             the
             multitude
             afore
             the
             Apostles
             laid
             their
             hands
             on
             them
             ;
             yea
             ,
             and
             not
             onely
             afore
             in
             respect
             of
             priority
             of
             nature
             ,
             but
             also
             in
             respect
             of
             time
             ;
             for
             otherwise
             ,
             how
             could
             the
             Apostles
             say
             as
             they
             doe
             unto
             the
             multitude
             ;
             brethren
             look
             out
             seven
             men
             among
             you
             whom
             we
             may
             appoint
             over
             this
             busines
             ?
             Can
             any
             man
             imagine
             they
             would
             thus
             have
             spoken
             ,
             if
             themselves
             had
             already
             found
             out
             the
             men
             ,
             and
             likewise
             had
             imposed
             hands
             upon
             them
             ?
             for
             my
             part
             ,
             I
             see
             no
             reason
             for
             such
             an
             apprehension
             ;
             but
             think
             it
             is
             undenyably
             plain
             in
             the
             text
             ,
             that
             the
             election
             of
             these
             seven
             by
             the
             people
             was
             prior
             to
             their
             Ordination
             ,
             by
             Imposition
             of
             the
             Apostles
             hands
             ,
             not
             onely
             in
             the
             relation
             of
             Luke
             as
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             have
             it
             ,
             but
             also
             in
             nature
             and
             time
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             contrary
             cannot
             be
             said
             without
             violence
             to
             the
             text
             ,
             and
             injury
             and
             wrong
             unto
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             who
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherfords
             exposition
             are
             made
             to
             have
             bidden
             the
             multitude
             to
             look
             out
             for
             the
             men
             amongst
             them
             of
             honest
             report
             ,
             &c.
             with
             a
             profession
             that
             when
             the
             multitude
             had
             so
             done
             they
             would
             then
             appoint
             the
             men
             to
             the
             businesse
             ,
             when
             as
             by
             this
             exposition
             they
             had
             already
             appointed
             them
             thereunto
             ,
             and
             had
             
             imposed
             their
             hands
             on
             them
             ,
             which
             kinde
             of
             dealing
             had
             been
             such
             ,
             that
             I
             think
             that
             Apostles
             were
             farre
             from
             it
             .
          
           
             It
             cannot
             be
             that
             Election
             of
             the
             people
             is
             the
             whol
             calling
             of
             a
             man
             to
             the
             Ministery
             ,
             and
             Ordination
             only
             a
             supplement
             &
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             ,
             or
             a
             benedictory
             sign
             ,
             which
             may
             be
             spared
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Take
             Ordination
             as
             we
             do
             ,
             and
             why
             cannot
             this
             be
             ?
             himself
             told
             us
             p.
             492.
             
             
               That
               he
               thinks
               not
               Imposition
               of
               hands
               so
               essentiall
               ,
               but
               that
               a
               Minister
               may
               be
               a
               Minister
               without
               it
               ,
               and
               that
               to
               him
               it
               is
               but
               a
               rite
               annexed
               to
               the
               calling
               :
            
             which
             is
             just
             the
             same
             that
             we
             hold
             ,
             and
             yet
             when
             it
             comes
             from
             us
             it
             cannot
             be
             accepted
             .
             Again
             ,
             he
             told
             us
             pag.
             186
             ,
             187.
             
             
               That
               there
               are
               true
               and
               lawfull
               pastors
               ,
               who
               have
               no
               call
               but
               peoples
               election
               :
            
             Which
             if
             it
             be
             so
             ,
             doth
             it
             not
             then
             follow
             ,
             that
             the
             election
             of
             the
             people
             with
             the
             mans
             acceptance
             thereof
             is
             his
             whole
             calling
             ?
             For
             if
             ●●ey
             be
             true
             and
             lawfull
             pastors
             ,
             who
             have
             no
             more
             but
             this
             election
             ,
             it
             seems
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             that
             this
             is
             the
             whole
             ,
             and
             yet
             here
             this
             is
             denyed
             .
             But
             let
             us
             hear
             the
             reasons
             of
             this
             denyall
             .
          
           
             1.
             
             Because
             by
             the
             Imposition
             of
             the
             hands
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             Timothy
             was
             made
             a
             Minister
             ,
             1
             Timothy
             4.
             14.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             text
             is
             not
             by
             the
             Imposition
             of
             their
             hands
             ,
             but
             with
             it
             ,
             not
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             but
             ,
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             ,
             as
             was
             noted
             afore
             out
             of
             
               Didoclavius
               Altare
               Damascen
               .
               p.
            
             161.
             who
             also
             sheweth
             in
             the
             same
             place
             at
             large
             ,
             that
             this
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             upon
             Timothy
             was
             onely
             for
             a
             testimonall
             of
             the
             approbation
             of
             his
             calling
             ,
             and
             for
             a
             ceremony
             used
             in
             commending
             him
             to
             God
             in
             their
             Prayers
             .
             And
             in
             asmuch
             as
             the
             office
             of
             Timothy
             was
             the
             office
             of
             an
             Evangelist
             ,
             how
             could
             an
             ordinary
             Presbytery
             giving
             him
             either
             the
             gifts
             or
             the
             power
             belonging
             thereto
             ?
             When
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hath
             satisfied
             Mr.
             Calderwood
             in
             these
             things
             (
             a
             man
             of
             his
             own
             nation
             )
             for
             I
             suppose
             Mr.
             Calderwood
             to
             be
             the
             authour
             of
             that
             treatise
             of
             
               Altare
               Damascen
            
             .
             then
             if
             we
             require
             more
             may
             be
             said
             of
             this
             place
             .
             In
             the
             mean
             time
             I
             proceed
             to
             the
             next
             .
          
           
             By
             this
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             Paul
             and
             Sylas
             were
             separated
             to
             preach
             to
             the
             Gentiles
             ,
             Acts
             13.
             1
             ,
             2
             ,
             3.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Paul
             and
             Sylas
             
               are
               not
               once
               mentioned
               in
               that
               place
               ,
               but
            
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             ;
             
               But
               not
               to
               insist
               upon
               this
               mistake
               ,
               let
               M.
            
             Calderwood
             
               answer
               for
               us
               concerning
               this
               scripture
               :
            
             Litigent
             ,
             
               saith
               he
            
             ,
             inter
             se
             pontifieii
             utrum
             impositio
             ista
             manuum
             fuerit
             ordinativa
             ,
             &c.
             that
             is
             ,
             let
             the
             Papists
             contend
             amongst
             themselves
             whether
             this
             imposition
             of
             hands
             was
             for
             Ordination
             ,
             or
             onely
             for
             Prayer
             :
             we
             hold
             that
             it
             was
             for
             Prayer
             and
             Comendatory
             (
             for
             they
             commended
             them
             to
             the
             grace
             of
             God
             ,
             as
             it
             s
             said
             ,
             
               Act.
               14.
               26.
               
            
             )
             yet
             as
             they
             could
             not
             ord●●n
             them
             and
             call
             them
             to
             this
             Ministery
             they
             being
             Apostles
             ,
             who
             were
             called
             extraordinarily
             ,
             so
             neither
             could
             they
             appoint
             them
             to
             any
             certain
             imployment
             or
             place
             ,
             for
             the
             holy
             Ghost
             did
             direct
             the
             Apostles
             in
             their
             troubles
             ,
             and
             here
             it
             is
             expresly
             said
             ,
             that
             they
             were
             sent
             forth
             by
             the
             holy
             Ghost
             
               Altare
               Damascen
               .
               pag.
               160.
               and
               then
               speaking
               of
               certain
               words
               of
            
             Spalato
             ,
             
               who
               saith
               ,
               this
               Imposition
               of
               hands
               was
               a
               pious
               ceremony
               ,
               and
               used
               at
               that
               time
               as
               a
               certain
               part
               of
               an
               efficatious
               Prayer
               ;
               he
               addeth
               ,
            
             Rectius
             diceret
             fuisse
             ,
             &c.
             he
             might
             more
             rightly
             say
             ,
             it
             was
             a
             rite
             and
             gesture
             of
             one
             that
             prayed
             ,
             shewing
             the
             person
             for
             whom
             he
             did
             implore
             grace
             ,
             rather
             then
             to
             call
             it
             an
             efficacious
             part
             of
             prayer
             .
             
               Where
               we
               plainly
               see
               that
               he
               counts
               this
               Imposition
               of
               hands
               on
            
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             
               no
               ordaining
               of
               them
               to
               the
               office
               ,
               as
               some
               Papists
               and
               it
               seems
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               would
               have
               it
               ;
               but
               onely
               a
               rite
               or
               gesture
               used
               when
               the
               Presbytery
               commended
            
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             
               to
               God
               by
               Prayer
               .
               This
               authour
               of
            
             Altare
             Damascenam
             
               also
               addeth
            
             ,
             Cum
             assumendi
             erant
             
             Levitae
             ,
             &c.
             
             That
             is
             ,
             when
             the
             Levites
             were
             to
             be
             taken
             from
             amongst
             the
             Children
             of
             Israel
             ,
             the
             Lord
             commands
             that
             they
             should
             be
             brought
             before
             Jehova●
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             Children
             of
             Israel
             should
             lay
             their
             hands
             upon
             the
             Levites
             ,
             Numb
             .
             8.
             9
             ,
             10.
             
             Although
             the
             Lord
             had
             commanded
             to
             consecrate
             these
             Levites
             unto
             the
             Ministery
             ;
             yet
             he
             commands
             the
             Israelites
             to
             lay
             their
             hands
             upon
             the
             Levites
             ,
             as
             if
             they
             had
             of
             their
             own
             accord
             in
             their
             name
             given
             them
             up
             to
             the
             Ministery
             ,
             as
             Junius
             
               in
               his
               Analysis
               doth
               fitly
               interpret
               it
               :
               Thus
               far
               Mr.
            
             Calderwood
             
               whose
               judgement
               of
               this
               scripture
               Numb
               .
               8.
               whether
               it
               be
               not
               the
               same
               with
               ours
               ,
               which
               was
               formerly
               expressed
               ,
               let
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               himself
               be
               judge
            
             .
          
           
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             addeth
             that
             by
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             the
             Deacons
             were
             ordained
             ,
             Act.
             6.
             and
             that
             this
             is
             enjoyned
             with
             the
             right
             manner
             of
             acting
             it
             to
             
               Timothy
               ,
               1
               Tim.
               5.
               22.
               and
               2.
            
             2.
             2.
             as
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             Whereas
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             it
             cannot
             be
             that
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             should
             be
             onely
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             or
             benedictory
             signe
             ,
             and
             brings
             the
             example
             of
             these
             Deacons
             ,
             Acts.
             6.
             for
             proof
             ,
             I
             desire
             no
             more
             ,
             but
             that
             he
             would
             accept
             his
             own
             words
             for
             answer
             .
             Now
             in
             pag.
             169.
             his
             words
             are
             these
             ;
             
               It
               is
               not
               said
               that
               the
               Deacons
               were
               ordained
               with
               Fasting
               and
               Prayer
               ,
               as
               hands
               are
               laid
               upon
            
             Paul
             and
             Barnabas
             ,
             Act.
             13.
             3
             ,
             4.
             
               but
               simply
               that
               the
               Apostles
               prayed
               and
               laid
               their
               hands
               on
               them
               ;
               which
               seems
               to
               me
               to
               be
               nothing
               but
               a
               signe
               of
               praying
               over
               these
               Deacons
               ,
               and
               no
               Ceremony
               or
               Sacrament
               conferring
               on
               them
               the
               holy
               Ghost
               .
            
             Now
             if
             it
             was
             nothing
             but
             a
             signe
             of
             Praying
             over
             these
             Deacons
             ,
             then
             1
             the
             substance
             of
             their
             calling
             consisted
             not
             in
             this
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             ,
             but
             in
             some
             thing
             else
             ;
             and
             what
             should
             that
             be
             but
             their
             election
             by
             the
             people
             ?
             2.
             
             If
             it
             was
             nothing
             but
             a
             signe
             of
             praying
             over
             then
             ,
             then
             why
             is
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             and
             a
             benedictory
             signe
             gainsaid
             and
             opposed
             ?
             For
             what
             great
             difference
             is
             there
             between
             a
             sign
             of
             prayer
             and
             a
             benedictory
             signe
             ?
             And
             how
             shall
             he
             be
             reconciled
             with
             himself
             ,
             that
             saith
             it
             was
             nothing
             but
             such
             a
             sign
             of
             praying
             ,
             and
             yet
             will
             not
             yeeld
             that
             it
             was
             onely
             a
             benedictory
             signe
             ?
          
           
             And
             for
             the
             other
             particular
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               this
               laying
               on
               of
               hands
               was
               enjoyed
               to
            
             Timothy
             
               as
               a
               ministeriall
               act
            
             ,
             if
             by
             ministeriall
             act
             he
             mean
             an
             act
             that
             could
             be
             lawfully
             performed
             by
             none
             ,
             but
             onely
             by
             a
             Minister
             ;
             then
             I
             desire
             some
             proof
             that
             this
             was
             so
             enjoyned
             to
             Timothy
             .
             That
             it
             was
             enjoyned
             to
             him
             I
             grant
             ,
             but
             that
             it
             was
             so
             enjoyned
             needs
             some
             better
             proof
             then
             a
             bare
             and
             naked
             aff●rmation
             ;
             specially
             sith
             many
             things
             were
             enjoyned
             to
             Timothy
             in
             those
             examples
             ,
             which
             were
             and
             are
             justly
             applyable
             to
             all
             Christians
             .
          
           
             Furthermore
             suppose
             it
             were
             true
             that
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             were
             enjoyned
             to
             Timothy
             as
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ,
             how
             doth
             this
             reach
             to
             make
             good
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ?
             what
             should
             hinder
             but
             the
             peoples
             election
             might
             contain
             the
             substance
             of
             a
             Ministers
             calling
             notwithstanding
             ?
             or
             how
             doth
             it
             therfore
             follow
             that
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             was
             not
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             or
             benedictory
             signe
             ,
             but
             somthing
             more
             ?
             Is
             there
             any
             such
             necessary
             consequence
             here
             ,
             that
             the
             one
             of
             these
             must
             needs
             follow
             upon
             the
             other
             ?
             For
             my
             part
             I
             see
             it
             not
             ,
             nor
             see
             any
             thing
             to
             the
             contrary
             ,
             but
             if
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             were
             such
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ,
             as
             he
             saith
             it
             is
             ,
             yet
             it
             might
             still
             be
             meerly
             a
             consummatory
             rite
             or
             benedictory
             signe
             ,
             and
             the
             substance
             of
             the
             calling
             consist
             still
             in
             the
             peoples
             Election
             .
             Himself
             doth
             say
             ,
             as
             we
             hear
             even
             now
             ,
             that
             Imposition
             of
             hands
             Act.
             6.
             though
             here
             he
             call
             it
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ,
             was
             nothing
             but
             a
             signe
             of
             praying
             over
             the
             Deacons
             .
             And
             therefore
             these
             two
             ,
             to
             be
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ▪
             and
             yet
             to
             be
             nothing
             but
             a
             signe
             of
             prayer
             
             or
             benedictory
             sign
             (
             which
             to
             me
             are
             the
             same
             )
             are
             not
             so
             inconsistent
             by
             his
             own
             doctrine
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             may
             well
             stand
             together
             ;
             And
             himself
             doth
             also
             hold
             that
             the
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             mentioned
             Numb
             .
             8.
             10.
             was
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ,
             and
             that
             they
             who
             did
             it
             ,
             performed
             the
             same
             as
             Ecclesiasticall
             Elders
             ;
             and
             yet
             I
             hope
             ,
             he
             will
             not
             deny
             that
             the
             substance
             of
             the
             Levites
             calling
             was
             in
             the
             immediate
             designement
             and
             appointment
             of
             the
             Lord
             ,
             and
             not
             in
             the
             performance
             of
             this
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             .
             And
             therefore
             it
             follows
             ,
             that
             if
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             were
             granted
             to
             be
             a
             ministeriall
             act
             ,
             yet
             still
             it
             may
             be
             meerly
             a
             benedictory
             signe
             ,
             and
             the
             substance
             or
             essence
             of
             the
             Ministers
             calling
             not
             consist
             in
             it
             ,
             but
             in
             some
             thing
             else
             .
          
           
             A
             mini●●eriall
             calling
             standeth
             in
             an
             authoritative
             sending
             ,
             Rom.
             10.
             15.
             and
             I
             see
             not
             well
             how
             the
             people
             do
             send
             a
             Minister
             to
             themselves
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             But
             it
             is
             not
             easie
             to
             see
             how
             they
             choose
             a
             man
             for
             a
             Minister
             to
             themselves
             ,
             being
             sent
             unto
             them
             by
             God
             ?
             And
             if
             God
             doe
             furnish
             a
             man
             with
             gifts
             ,
             and
             an
             holy
             propensity
             of
             minde
             to
             the
             work
             in
             generall
             ,
             and
             to
             such
             or
             such
             a
             people
             in
             particular
             ,
             and
             make
             way
             by
             his
             providence
             thereto
             ,
             then
             who
             can
             deny
             ,
             but
             such
             a
             man
             is
             sent
             of
             God
             unto
             that
             people
             ?
             And
             then
             if
             that
             people
             observing
             Gods
             sending
             of
             him
             in
             this
             s●●t
             ,
             do
             hereupon
             elect
             and
             choose
             him
             ,
             and
             promise
             to
             be
             obedient
             to
             him
             in
             the
             Lord
             ,
             what
             is
             there
             now
             wanting
             to
             the
             substance
             and
             offence
             of
             such
             a
             mans
             calling
             to
             such
             a
             people
             ?
             and
             yet
             the
             man
             is
             not
             sent
             by
             them
             to
             themselves
             ,
             but
             sent
             by
             God
             ,
             and
             received
             and
             chose
             by
             them
             :
             Parcus
             understands
             this
             sending
             ,
             Rom.
             10.
             of
             Gods
             sending
             ▪
             and
             so
             doth
             Piscator
             ,
             and
             who
             not
             ?
             And
             to
             understand
             it
             otherwise
             would
             be
             to
             condemne
             the
             Prophets
             and
             Apostles
             ,
             who
             were
             not
             sent
             by
             men
             at
             all
             ,
             and
             yet
             did
             truely
             answer
             this
             scripture
             ,
             in
             that
             they
             were
             sent
             of
             God
             :
             True
             it
             is
             ,
             ordinary
             Ministers
             are
             not
             sent
             of
             God
             in
             such
             an
             extraordinary
             way
             as
             the
             Prophets
             and
             Apostles
             were
             ,
             but
             in
             an
             ordinary
             way
             ,
             and
             by
             ordinary
             means
             ;
             which
             way
             and
             means
             if
             they
             doe
             observe
             ,
             they
             also
             may
             be
             truly
             said
             to
             be
             sent
             of
             God
             unto
             the
             people
             .
          
           
             But
             peradventure
             our
             brother
             means
             that
             the
             people
             may
             not
             lawfully
             choose
             a
             man
             for
             minister
             unto
             themselves
             ,
             except
             he
             be
             first
             sent
             unto
             them
             ,
             in
             an
             authoritative
             way
             by
             some
             other
             men
             ,
             and
             that
             otherwise
             he
             is
             not
             sent
             unto
             them
             of
             God
             ;
             which
             if
             it
             were
             true
             ,
             then
             it
             would
             follow
             ,
             that
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Prophets
             ,
             as
             I
             said
             ,
             were
             not
             sent
             of
             God
             :
             for
             plain
             it
             is
             ,
             that
             men
             sent
             them
             not
             .
             It
             would
             also
             hereupon
             be
             requisite
             to
             be
             cleared
             ,
             that
             some
             men
             besides
             the
             Church
             have
             authority
             to
             send
             Ministers
             to
             the
             Church
             ,
             and
             who
             these
             men
             are
             that
             have
             such
             authority
             had
             need
             to
             be
             cleared
             also
             ;
             which
             I
             for
             my
             part
             think
             will
             not
             be
             done
             in
             hast
             .
             And
             till
             this
             be
             done
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             reason
             ,
             but
             I
             may
             still
             retain
             this
             apprehension
             ,
             that
             men
             who
             are
             qualified
             according
             to
             the
             rule
             of
             the
             word
             and
             duly
             elected
             and
             chosen
             to
             some
             office
             of
             the
             Ministery
             by
             Gods
             people
             ,
             are
             truly
             sent
             of
             God
             unto
             that
             people
             .
          
           
             The
             people
             have
             not
             either
             formally
             or
             by
             grant
             of
             Christ
             virtually
             ,
             the
             keyes
             committed
             to
             them
             ,
             how
             then
             can
             they
             give
             the
             keyes
             to
             Pastors
             ?
          
           
             Answ
             .
             
               Yet
               in
               p.
            
             7.
             
             He
             tells
             us
             that
             he
             denyes
             not
             but
             there
             is
             a
             power
             virtuall
             ,
             not
             formall
             in
             the
             Church
             of
             beleevers
             ,
             to
             supply
             the
             want
             of
             ordination
             of
             Pastors
             ,
             or
             some
             other
             acts
             of
             the
             keyes
             simply
             necessary
             ,
             
               hic
               &
               nunc
            
             :
             and
             this
             power
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             is
             virtuall
             not
             formall
             .
             
               Now
               to
               say
               they
               have
               this
               power
               neither
               formally
               nor
               virtually
               ,
               and
               yet
               to
               say
               they
               have
               this
               power
               virtually
               though
               not
               formally
               ,
               what
               is
               it
               but
               an
               apparent
               contradiction
               ?
            
          
           
             
               But
               suppose
               it
               were
               true
               that
               the
               people
               had
               not
               this
               power
               either
               formally
               or
               virtually
               ,
               
               yet
               Mr.
            
             Ball
             
               and
               Mr.
            
             Bai●s
             
               afore
               him
               doe
               tell
               us
               ,
               that
               ministerially
               they
               may
               give
               what
               they
               never
               had
               ,
            
             viz.
             As
             ministring
             to
             him
             who
             hath
             power
             and
             virtue
             of
             deriving
             its
             as
             a
             man
             not
             〈◊〉
             a
             peny
             of
             his
             own
             may
             give
             an
             100
             l.
             if
             the
             King
             make
             him
             his
             Almoner
             .
             Thus
             the
             Church
             deriveth
             a●
             taking
             the
             person
             whom
             Christ
             describeth
             ,
             and
             out
             of
             power
             will
             ●ave
             placed
             in
             this
             or
             that
             office
             in
             his
             Church
             .
             The
             power
             of
             the
             imperiall
             dignity
             is
             not
             in
             the
             electo●
             of
             the
             Emperours
             ,
             nor
             the
             power
             of
             that
             office
             and
             authority
             ,
             whereunto
             a
             Minister
             is
             elected
             ,
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             who
             chuseth
             him
             to
             that
             office
             .
             
               Ball
               Tryall
               of
               Separat
               .
               pag.
               239
               ,
               240.
               
            
          
           
             Pag.
             494
             ,
             495.
             
             People
             may
             as
             the
             sheep
             of
             Christ
             discern
             his
             voice
             ,
             Joh.
             10.
             and
             so
             have
             a
             power
             of
             election
             of
             their
             own
             Pastors
             :
             nor
             doth
             this
             make
             good
             what
             our
             brethren
             say
             ,
             that
             therefore
             they
             may
             judge
             of
             a
             ministers
             fitnes
             ?
          
           
             Answ
             .
             That
             which
             we
             say
             in
             this
             Answ
             .
             pag.
             51.
             
             
               There
               must
               be
               some
               ability
               to
               discerne
               whether
               men
               be
               qualified
               according
               to
               the
               rule
               ,
               afore
               they
               ought
               to
               be
               elected
               and
               chosen
               into
               office
               ;
               and
               the
               people
               of
               God
               have
               so
               much
               ability
               as
               is
               of
               necessity
               required
               afore
               there
               be
               preceeding
               unto
               ordination
               ?
            
             Wherein
             it
             is
             plain
             that
             our
             arguing
             is
             from
             the
             peoples
             ability
             to
             discern
             of
             mens
             fitnes
             afore
             they
             be
             elected
             ,
             to
             their
             like
             ability
             to
             discern
             of
             their
             fitnesse
             afore
             they
             be
             ordained
             .
             They
             who
             have
             so
             much
             as
             to
             discern
             who
             are
             fit
             to
             be
             ordained
             :
             but
             the
             people
             of
             God
             may
             have
             the
             former
             .
             Ergo
             ,
             they
             may
             have
             the
             latter
             .
             Now
             what
             saith
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             hereunto
             ?
             
               The
               assumption
               he
               denyes
               not
               ,
               but
               in
               plain
               words
               grants
               it
               ,
               saying
               ,
               they
               may
               as
               Christs
               sheep
               ,
            
             Joh.
             10.
             
               discern
               Christs
               voyce
               ,
               and
               so
               have
               a
               power
               of
               election
               of
               their
               own
               Pastors
               .
            
             It
             must
             then
             be
             the
             consequence
             that
             must
             be
             denyed
             ,
             or
             the
             conclusion
             must
             be
             yeelded
             :
             what
             then
             brings
             he
             to
             overthrow
             the
             consequence
             ?
             
               Nothing
               but
               this
               ,
               that
               there
               is
               a
               two
               fold
               knowledge
               ,
               one
               of
               Christians
               not
               denyed
               to
               women
               and
               beleeving
               children
               ,
               who
               cannot
               lay
               on
               hands
               ,
               nor
               ordain
               Mi●isters
               ,
               as
               the
               Presbytery
               doth
               .
            
             But
             what
             the
             other
             knowledge
             is
             he
             doth
             not
             plainly
             tell
             ,
             except
             any
             thing
             may
             be
             gathered
             from
             the
             words
             following
             ,
             where
             he
             saith
             ,
             
               But
               for
               trying
               of
               Ministers
               if
               they
               be
               the
               sonnes
               of
               the
               Prophets
               apt
               to
               teach
               ,
               able
               to
               convince
               the
               subtill
               hereticks
               ,
               and
               gainsayers
               ,
               and
               to
               put
               them
               to
               silence
               ,
               there
               must
               be
               in
               a
               constituted
               Church
               a
               Colledge
               of
               Pastors
               and
               Prophets
               to
               try
               the
               Prophets
               with
               a
               Presbyteriall
               cognizance
               .
            
          
           
             Answ
             .
             But
             if
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             would
             have
             spoken
             to
             the
             point
             ,
             he
             should
             have
             given
             some
             reason
             why
             the
             people
             may
             discern
             a
             mans
             fitnes
             for
             election
             ,
             and
             yet
             not
             discern
             his
             fitnes
             for
             ordination
             ,
             for
             this
             is
             the
             consequence
             of
             our
             argument
             which
             he
             denyes
             .
             But
             in
             all
             that
             is
             here
             said
             about
             a
             two
             fold
             knowledge
             ,
             one
             of
             Christians
             ,
             and
             the
             other
             of
             some
             body
             else
             ,
             what
             is
             there
             in
             all
             this
             ,
             that
             hath
             so
             much
             as
             the
             least
             shew
             of
             overthrowing
             or
             weakning
             the
             conseqence
             ?
             su●e
             nothing
             at
             all
             that
             I
             can
             finde
             :
             For
             as
             for
             that
             which
             is
             intimated
             ,
             that
             Christians
             have
             not
             so
             much
             knowledge
             as
             to
             try
             Ministers
             whether
             they
             be
             apt
             to
             teach
             ,
             &c.
             this
             makes
             nothing
             to
             the
             point
             in
             hand
             ,
             that
             they
             can
             discern
             whether
             a
             man
             be
             fit
             to
             be
             elected
             ,
             but
             not
             discern
             whether
             he
             be
             fit
             to
             be
             ordained
             ;
             but
             if
             it
             have
             any
             strength
             in
             it
             at
             all
             ,
             it
             is
             as
             much
             against
             the
             ability
             of
             the
             people
             ,
             which
             he
             expressely
             grants
             ,
             as
             against
             that
             which
             he
             would
             deny
             ;
             as
             much
             against
             their
             ability
             of
             discerning
             his
             fitnes
             for
             ordination
             .
             And
             therefore
             how
             this
             should
             overthrow
             the
             one
             and
             not
             the
             other
             ,
             I
             do
             not
             know
             :
             for
             to
             any
             mans
             understanding
             it
             makes
             no
             more
             against
             the
             one
             then
             against
             the
             other
             ;
             but
             either
             against
             both
             ,
             which
             he
             will
             not
             grant
             ,
             or
             else
             against
             neither
             which
             I
             conceive
             is
             the
             very
             truth
             ?
             To
             argue
             in
             this
             sort
             ,
             they
             have
             not
             ability
             to
             convince
             〈◊〉
             Hereticks
             ;
             Ergo
             ,
             they
             
             may
             not
             chuse
             their
             Ministers
             ,
             this
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             will
             not
             own
             ;
             for
             he
             plainly
             grants
             they
             may
             chuse
             :
             and
             therefore
             how
             can
             this
             arguing
             be
             good
             ,
             they
             want
             ab●lity
             to
             convince
             Hereticks
             ;
             Ergo
             ,
             they
             may
             not
             impose
             hands
             in
             ordination
             ?
             How
             the
             one
             kinds
             of
             reasoning
             can
             be
             better
             then
             the
             other
             ,
             I
             do
             not
             know
             ,
             except
             we
             would
             say
             some
             may
             be
             lawfully
             elected
             and
             chosen
             to
             the
             ministery
             ,
             who
             cannot
             lawfully
             be
             ordained
             ,
             but
             this
             I
             suppose
             cannot
             be
             said
             with
             truth
             .
          
        
         
           
             CHAP.
             XXVI
             .
          
           
             Whether
             the
             Epistles
             to
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             ,
             wherein
             there
             are
             contained
             rules
             of
             direction
             in
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             ,
             do
             prove
             that
             the
             action
             may
             not
             in
             any
             case
             be
             performed
             by
             non-officers
             ,
             but
             must
             be
             performed
             onely
             by
             Presbyters
             ;
             and
             whether
             the
             argument
             do
             not
             make
             as
             strongly
             for
             the
             appropriating
             of
             laying
             on
             of
             hands
             to
             the
             Prelates
             ,
             as
             to
             the
             Presbyters
             ,
             and
             do
             not
             as
             well
             exclude
             the
             Presbyters
             from
             medling
             therein
             ,
             as
             exclude
             the
             People
             .
          
           
             
               THere
               is
               onely
               one
               place
               more
               where
               I
               finde
               Mr.
            
             Rutherford
             
               excepting
               against
               the
               answer
               ;
               and
               that
               is
               in
               his
            
             pag.
             497.
             
               where
               alledging
               the
               answer
            
             pag.
             59.
             
               which
               I
               conceive
               is
               misprinted
               for
            
             pag.
             49.
             
             He
             sets
             down
             these
             words
             as
             ours
             ,
             viz.
             If
             people
             may
             not
             meddle
             with
             ordination
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             proper
             to
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             ,
             this
             may
             prove
             that
             they
             were
             Bishops
             who
             did
             ordaine
             Elders
             there
             alone
             ,
             which
             Ministers
             may
             not
             doe
             there
             ,
             for
             these
             Epistles
             are
             not
             written
             to
             them
             as
             Bishops
             alone
             ,
             nor
             as
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             but
             as
             to
             a
             mixt
             state
             including
             the
             People
             .
          
           
             Answ
             .
             The
             order
             of
             the
             dispute
             is
             this
             :
             Reverend
             Mr.
             Herle
             arguing
             for
             ordination
             of
             officers
             by
             a
             consociated
             Eldership
             ,
             and
             not
             by
             a
             single
             Congregation
             with
             or
             without
             a
             Pastor
             ,
             brings
             this
             reason
             for
             his
             judgement
             ,
             
               viz.
               Rules
               of
               direction
               how
               to
               proceed
               in
               ordination
               ,
               and
               the
               Epistles
               where
               those
               rules
               are
               laid
               down
               ,
               are
               not
               written
               to
               the
               Churches
               or
               Congregations
               ,
               but
               to
            
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             .
             In
             answer
             whereunto
             we
             spoke
             to
             this
             purpose
             ,
             that
             if
             this
             be
             a
             sufficient
             reason
             to
             prove
             that
             the
             people
             may
             not
             in
             any
             case
             meddle
             with
             Ordination
             ,
             then
             by
             as
             good
             reason
             it
             will
             follow
             ,
             that
             Ordination
             belongs
             not
             to
             the
             Presbytery
             or
             Synod
             ,
             but
             onely
             to
             one
             man
             ,
             as
             the
             Prelates
             would
             have
             it
             ;
             the
             reason
             we
             give
             is
             ,
             because
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             were
             each
             of
             them
             but
             onely
             one
             man.
             And
             we
             there
             further
             say
             ,
             that
             we
             doe
             approve
             the
             answer
             given
             to
             this
             kinde
             of
             reasoning
             by
             the
             refuter
             of
             Dr.
             Down●●s
             sermon
             ,
             at
             L●●beth
             ,
             who
             shews
             that
             what
             was
             written
             in
             those
             Epistles
             ,
             was
             not
             onely
             written
             for
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             ,
             but
             for
             other
             Ministers
             also
             ,
             and
             also
             in
             some
             sort
             for
             all
             the
             Saints
             ,
             and
             that
             therefore
             there
             is
             no
             more
             reason
             to
             appropriate
             those
             rules
             ,
             onely
             to
             the
             use
             of
             Presbyteries
             and
             Synods
             ,
             then
             only
             to
             the
             use
             of
             Prelates
             .
          
           
             Now
             what
             saith
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             to
             this
             ?
          
           
             Some
             parcell
             of
             these
             〈◊〉
             are
             written
             ,
             saith
             he
             ,
             to
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             as
             Evangeli●ts
             .
             Something
             's
             are
             written
             to
             them
             as
             Christians
             ;
             and
             
               finaditer
               &
               objective
            
             all
             is
             written
             
             for
             the
             Churches
             good
             ,
             but
             the
             bulk
             of
             the
             Epistles
             is
             written
             to
             them
             as
             Elders
             ,
             and
             especially
             .
             1
             
               Tim.
               5.
               22.
               2
               
               Tim.
            
             2.
             2.
             for
             these
             and
             the
             like
             they
             were
             to
             doe
             with
             the
             Presbytery
             as
             is
             cleare
             ,
             1
             Tim.
             4.
             14.
             
          
           
             Answ
             .
             This
             Scripture
             1
             Tim.
             4.
             doth
             shew
             that
             Timothy
             had
             a
             gift
             given
             him
             by
             Prophesie
             with
             the
             laying
             on
             the
             hands
             of
             the
             Presbytery
             ;
             but
             how
             doth
             it
             hence
             appear
             ,
             that
             not
             only
             Timothy
             but
             Titus
             also
             was
             to
             dothings
             with
             the
             Presbytery
             ?
             Titus
             is
             not
             at
             all
             mentioned
             in
             that
             Scripture
             .
             And
             as
             for
             Timothy
             ,
             Scripture
             tells
             what
             the
             Presbytery
             did
             to
             him
             ,
             but
             what
             he
             must
             doe
             with
             the
             Presbytery
             it
             tells
             us
             nothing
             at
             all
             .
             Again
             ,
             if
             the
             bulk
             of
             the
             Epistles
             be
             written
             to
             them
             as
             Elders
             ,
             and
             the
             Churches
             be
             no
             otherwise
             concerned
             therein
             ,
             but
             only
             finaliter
             and
             objectively
             ,
             the
             Epistles
             being
             written
             for
             their
             good
             ,
             then
             what
             shall
             be
             the
             meaning
             and
             reason
             of
             these
             words
             in
             the
             conclusion
             of
             the
             Epistle
             to
             Titus
             ,
             and
             of
             the
             latter
             to
             Timothy
             ,
             where
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             grace
             be
             with
             you
             ,
             and
             grace
             be
             with
             you
             all
             ?
             doth
             it
             not
             plainly
             appear
             hereby
             ,
             that
             more
             then
             Elders
             ,
             even
             all
             the
             Saints
             in
             those
             places
             are
             written
             unto
             in
             those
             Epistles
             ?
             Thirdly
             if
             there
             be
             rules
             in
             the
             Epistles
             that
             doe
             belong
             to
             Elders
             alone
             ,
             yet
             sith
             it
             is
             confessed
             ,
             and
             may
             not
             be
             denyed
             ,
             that
             other
             things
             therein
             doe
             concern
             all
             Christians
             ,
             how
             shall
             we
             be
             assured
             that
             such
             passages
             ,
             as
             concern
             ●aying
             on
             of
             hands
             are
             of
             the
             former
             sort
             ,
             and
             not
             of
             the
             latter
             ?
             For
             to
             say
             it
             is
             so
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             clear
             ,
             we
             think
             doth
             not
             clear
             it
             at
             all
             ,
             unlesse
             some
             further
             proofe
             be
             added
             .
             Lastly
             ,
             if
             all
             this
             were
             granted
             ,
             which
             here
             is
             said
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             ,
             yet
             for
             ought
             I
             see
             ,
             our
             answer
             is
             not
             removed
             thereby
             ,
             but
             still
             stands
             fair
             and
             good
             :
             For
             in
             that
             place
             of
             the
             answer
             alledged
             ,
             we
             say
             two
             things
             ,
             1.
             
             That
             these
             rules
             about
             ordination
             in
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             may
             with
             as
             fair
             a
             colour
             be
             appropriated
             to
             one
             man
             ,
             as
             to
             Presbyteries
             and
             Synods
             .
             2.
             
             That
             the
             Epistles
             and
             the
             rules
             therein
             are
             not
             to
             be
             appropriated
             to
             Bishops
             alone
             or
             Ministers
             alone
             ,
             but
             are
             indeed
             of
             generall
             concernment
             for
             all
             the
             Christians
             .
             Now
             neither
             of
             these
             two
             is
             discovered
             by
             Mr.
             Rutherford
             .
             For
             as
             for
             the
             former
             of
             them
             ,
             he
             saith
             nothing
             thereto
             at
             all
             ;
             and
             the
             latter
             he
             doth
             in
             a
             manner
             grant
             ,
             not
             only
             by
             saying
             that
             all
             here
             is
             written
             for
             the
             Churches
             good
             ,
             but
             also
             by
             saying
             that
             somethings
             are
             written
             to
             Timothy
             and
             Titus
             as
             Christians
             which
             is
             in
             effect
             the
             same
             that
             we
             had
             said
             before
             .
             And
             how
             our
             answer
             can
             be
             disproved
             or
             satisfied
             ,
             either
             by
             saying
             nothing
             at
             all
             thereto
             ,
             or
             by
             saying
             the
             same
             that
             we
             had
             said
             before
             ,
             I
             leave
             it
             to
             the
             Judicious
             reader
             to
             consider
             .
          
           
             FINIS
             .